Episode 18 of Let's Talk Bitcoin, It's Not That Simple! Pa ticipants!

"dam B# Le$ine %"dam& ' (ost Stephanie )* ph+ %S)& ' ,o-host "nd eas )# "ntonopo*los - ,o-host .oseph /a$id ' ,E0 of ,"1i te2 Stanisla$ Shal*no$ ' ,T0 of 0pen 3a den 4Int o )*sic Pla+s5 "dam! ,omin6 *p on toda+'s sho7, Bitcoin, )PES", and 8en+a - co* tes+ of 3enesisBlock#com# 9hat is )ic olendin6, and does it 7o k: It;s Not That Simple - Life as the La 6est ,anadian E2chan6e 7ith .oseph /a$id, ,E0 of ,"1i te2# 1< B i=es a month ' Is ,o *ption >*st /e$elopin6-7o ld tippin6: )*t*all+-Beneficial )esh Net7o kin6 on +o* Sma tphone, 7ith Stanisla$ Shal*no$ ,T0 of 0pen 3a den, and the o i6ins of )-Pesa, and 7hat a e =itcoins chances in 8en+a, eall+: "dam! If +o*' e ne7 to Bitcoin, check o*t 777#letstalk=itcoin#com?lea n to =e di ected to the Bitcoin Ed*cation P o>ect# If +o* like 7hat 7e' e doin6, please e$ie7 *s on iT*nes o +o* p efe ed podcast platfo m# 4)*sic B eak5 "dam! This helps othe find the sho7 =*t, >*st 6ene all+, 7e eall+ app eciate it# 9e do an ho* lon6 sho7 e$e + 7eek and it can =e o$e 7helmin6 to o* ne7 listene s# I'm e2cited to anno*nce a = and ne7 tool to help sha e the sho7 called 3i$epodcast#com# @sin6 +o* phone, >*st take a sc een-shot of +o* podcast pla+e at the time +o* 7ant to sha e, email the ima6e to clipA6i$epodcast#com 7ith the desc iption in the s*=>ect and the email add ess of the f iend +o*'d like to send it to# The se $ice 6 a=s a 1B-min*te clip of the sho7 sta tin6 at the time indicated =+ the sc een-shot, hosts it, and emails it to +o* f iend in a nice clean fo mat# This is an e2pe iment# Please 6i$e it a t + and tell *s 7hat +o* think# 4)*sic Cades5 "dam! (i, and 7elcome to Let's Talk Bitcoin a t7ice-7eekl+ sho7 foc*sed on the ideas, p o>ects, and people =*ildin6 the ne7 di6ital econom+ and the f*t* e of mone+# )+ name is "dam B# Le$ine and I'm a 7 ite and speake 7ho likes to talk a=o*t complicated topics in *nde standa=le te ms# .oinin6 me in o* t7ice-7eekl+ sea ch fo cla it+, "nd eas )# "ntonopo*los is an e2pe t in dist i=*ted s+stems and decent aliDed net7o ks# "nd eas! (ello# "dam! / # Stephanie )* ph+ is a scientist and s+ndicated adio host#

Stephanie! (ello# "nd eas! The potential of c +ptoc* encies s*ch as Bitcoin in "f ica is an iss*e 7e'$e talked a=o*t on this sho7 E*ite a =it, and in fact, I'$e coined the te m, Bitcoin is fo the othe <#F =illion, and it's somethin6 I fell st on6l+ a=o*t# Gecentl+, Noel .ones 7 itin6, fo one of o* fa$o ite =lo6s, The 3enesis Block, 7 ote a 6 eat piece e2plainin6 ho7 specificall+ 8en+a 7o*ld =enefit immensel+ f om s*ch adoption, if onl+ the+ kne7# So, f om the a ticle, H"f ica toda+ has one of the fastest 6 o7in6 mo=ile phone ma kets in the 7o ld 7ith IBJ ann*al 6 o7th and KLJ of 8en+an ho*seholds o7nin6 mo=ile phones# 9hat makes 8en+a a pa tic*la l+ *niE*e case fo Bitcoin is that it is also a 7o ld leade in mo=ile pa+ment *sa6e# In IBBM, Safa icom, one of 8en+a;s leadin6 telecomm*nications companies, la*nched a mo=ile pa+ment se $ice called )PES"#H -"nd that's somethin6 7e'$e talked a=o*t E*ite a =it on this sho7# Back to the a ticle, HToda+, t7o-thi ds of 8en+ans *se the se $ice and mo e than LBJ of 8en+a;s 3/P flo7s th o*6h it# The =enefits to the 8en+an pop*lation a e asto*ndin6 as 7ell, 7ith )-PES";s * al adoption often seein6 d amatic income inc eases afte adoptin6 the p o6 am#H 9hat do +o* 6*+s think a=o*t )-PES" 8en+a, and the oppo t*nit+ of Bitcoin in those en$i onments: Stephanie! )-PES" seems to =e 7o kin6 p ett+ 7ell fo a lot of people in 8en+a, and othe pa ts of "f ica, and pe haps it's =eca*se a lot of people ha$e mo=ile phones and the+' e *sin6, =asicall+, this S)S =ased mechanism to send small pa+ments a o*nd, I think that the+'$e al ead+ =een *sed to this concept of *sin6 thei phones to send mone+ and to send small amo*nts of mone+, so pe haps Bitcoin 7o*ld =e e2cellent fo them# No* kno7, mic olendin6 is anothe thin6 that I think of 7hen I think of the de$elopin6 7o ld and Bitcoin makes mic olendin6 so s*pe eas+# It doesn't eE*i e these =i6 7e=sites and thin6s to administ ate# It's >*st like +o* can make a f*nd, and it's eall+ eas+ to send pa+ments to people, and pa+ it =ack# "nd eas! 9hen +o* sa+ mic olendin6, let's act*all+ talk a=o*t that fo a second# 9hat does that mean in a n*tshell: Stephanie! )ic olendin6 is =asicall+ the iss*ance of small loans to indi$id*als o 6 o*ps of =o o7e s in the de$elopin6 7o ld# T+picall+, most =eneficia ies of mic olendin6 a e act*all+ 7omen o 6 o*ps of 7omen that a e lookin6 to sta t thei o7n small =*sinesses# Those loans can =e =acked =+, fo instance, people in the de$eloped 7o ld, and the e a e man+ diffe ent $a iations and t7ists on it# 3ene all+ conside ed the fi st mic olendin6 instit*tion 7as this =ank called 3 ameen Bank, and that 7as )*hammad N*n*s, I 7anna sa+ - 4he5 6ot the No=el Peace P iDe fo 3 ameen Bank =eca*se the+ 7e e doin6 these small loans, and that's the thin6 in the de$elopin6 7o ld, =eca*se people don't *s*all+ ha$e collate al the+ don't *s*all+ ha$e 7a+s to 6et c edit, the+ don't ha$e a c edit histo +# -"nd so it's eall+ challen6in6 to think a=o*t iss*in6 them a loan, =*t mic olendin6 is specificall+ fo those t+pes of =o o7e s# -"nd as fa as ha$in6 those loans =ein6 paid =ack 7itho*t c edit histo + o 7itho*t collate al, 7hich these people often don't ha$e, lendin6 to 6 o*ps ena=les so t of like a social p ess* e kind of incenti$e to pa+ it =ack, o a 6 o*p ass* ance that the loan 7ill =e epaid# -So, it's eall+ helped a lot of people in the de$elopin6 7o ld, I mean the e's definitel+ c itics of it too, 7ho sa+ thin6s like a=*si$e h*s=ands 7ill *se thei 7i$es to 6et c edit, essentiall+# -0 like if the+ can't pa+ it =ack, sometimes people 7ill commit s*icide and thin6s like that# -So, it's 6ot a co*ple of c itics, =*t

o$e all, I think a lot of people eco6niDe it has act*all+ helped sp* economic de$elopment in some places in the 7o ld 7e e the e 7e en't those options =efo e mic olendin6 came a=o*t# "dam! /o +o* kno7 if an+=odies doin6 this in the Bitcoin space +et: Beca*se, I mean +o*' e totall+ i6ht, it seems like a $e + nat* al $en*e# "nd eas! I'm in$ol$ed in mic olendin6 E*ite a =it, I'$e *sed t7o se $ices, one is mo e o iented to7a ds pee -to-pee lendin6 7hich is mo e the 7este n o de$eloped 7o ld and +o* can find se $ices like that on Lendin6 ,l*= and p ospe #com etc# In te ms of mic o lendin6, one of the se $ices I *se e2tensi$el+ fo a =i6 ch*nk of m+ sa$in6s is 8I1", 8i$a#o 6# Stephanie! )e, too# "nd eas! No*'ll like this# I'$e sta ted an effo t to pe s*ade 8I1" to *se Bitcoin and I'$e sent them a n*m=e of emails - I ha$en't ecei$ed a esponse =ack - I'm t +in6 to c eate a little petition, pe haps on one of those petition sites, to pe s*ade them to sta t acceptin6 =itcoin# The e a e some o=$io*sl+-si6nificant ad$anta6es to *sin6 =itcoin in that en$i onment, incl*din6 the fact that a =i6 ch*nk of thei cost is the a66 e6ation and t ansfe of the f*nds o$e seas 7ith 7i e t ansfe s and thin6s like that# Stephanie! The+ ha$e to pa tne 7ith these local inte media ies# Basicall+, 8I1" is not pee -topee lendin6 - it's =asicall+ the+ = oke , as I *nde stand it, a loan that's 6i$en =+ a local =ank, =*t is f*nded o 6*a anteed =+ dono s to 8I1"# "nd eas! Neah, e2actl+# It's not necessa il+ a=o*t c*ttin6 o*t the inte media ies, =eca*se these local o 6aniDations, man+ of them cha ita=le o 6aniDations as 7ell, a e esponsi=le fo dist i=*tion, fo findin6 the =o o7e s, fo helpin6 the =o o7e s c eatin6 a p ofile and tell thei sto +, and t anslatin6 thei sto +, etc, =*t also collectin6 the pa+ments and =ein6 a=le to keep the s+stem s*staina=le# (e e's one $e + inte estin6 thin6# 0n Lendin6 ,l*=, I'm mostl+ lendin6 to "me icans# 0n 8I1", I'm mostl+ lendin6 to people in de$elopin6 co*nt ies 7ho a e m*ch, m*ch poo e # 3*ess 7ho defa*lts mo e: Stephanie! The "me icans: "nd eas! Nep# The defa*lt ate on m+ 8I1" loans is a=o*t half of the ate on Lendin6 ,l*= - =+ the 7a+, e$en the Lendin6 ,l*= defa*lt ate is E*ite lo7 and still 6i$es me a fantastic et* n# 8I1", I don't 6et a et* n, it 6ets f*nneled =ack into cha it+, so +o* don't make mone+ off it, =*t it's eall+ inte estin6 - the defa*lt ate is m*ch lo7e # That's an imp essi$e testament to the fact that, 7hen +o* 6i$e oppo t*nities like this, to people 7ho don't ha$e the oppo t*nities# To6ethe 7ith the pee p ess* e of comm*nit+ loans and thin6s like that it's act*all+ a $e + effecti$e 7a+ to dist i=*te and 6et mone+ to 7he e it's needed# Stephanie! ,o*ld Gipple =e a medi*m fo Bitcoin mic olendin6, o do +o* 6*+s kno7 of an+ specific 7e=sites that a e onl+ fo Bicoin mic olendin6 at this point and time: "nd eas! I'$e seen at least L diffe ent sites that do Bitcoin pee -to-pee lendin6, =*t I think the

=i6 challen6e the e is the matte of ha$in6 inf ast *ct* e pa tne s that a e a=le to dist i=*te these loans, 7hich is 7h+ I'm essentiall+ t +in6 to 6et 8I1"#o 6 to adopt =itcoin# Beca*se the+ al ead+ ha$e the inf ast *ct* e the connections and tho*sands and tho*sands of need+ =o o7e s, it's m*ch =ette to con$e t that# "dam! I'm eal c* io*s he e# I do not pa ticipate in mic o lendin6, "nd eas, 7hat t+pe of amo*nts a e +o* talkin6 a=o*t on a pe -loan =asis: 9hen +o*' e talkin6 a=o*t 8I1", a e 7e talkin6 a=o*t fift+ =*cks, co*ple h*nd ed dolla s, co*ple tho*sand dolla s: "nd eas! The loans an6e f om a=o*t t7o-h*nd ed dolla s to a=o*t th ee o fo* tho*sand dolla s, and *s*all+ the la 6e loans in$ol$e 6 o*ps of =o o7e s# The *ses of the loans an6e - at fi st +o* ma+ =e a =it s* p ised - people ma+ think these a e kind of in$estments loans, like, Hhelp (*ssein =*+ a ta2i so he can inc ease his ta2i =*sinessH o Hhelp .imm+ 6et a moto c+cle so he can dist i=*te cell phones to his c*stome s o 7hate$e # -B*t a lot of it is >*st plain-old cons*me loans# If +o* think a=o*t it, cons*me loans a e >*st as impo tant in this en$i onment =eca*se it c eates liE*idit+# So sometimes it's Hhelp so and so =*+ a ne7 T1,H and that's fine, too# Stephanie! Indi$id*al lende s o f*nde s can cont i=*te as lo7 as, I think, OIF inc ements on 8I1": "nd eas! Neah, I do all of m+ loans - I ha$e a limit of OIF is the ma2im*m allotted to an+ one lende , and then it's =asicall+ c o7d-so* ced, so +o* ha$e eno*6h people cont i=*tin6 OIF that the loans 6et f*nded p ett+ E*ickl+, in fact# Stephanie! I did some esea ch on this eal E*ick, and I sea ched fo Bitcoin mic olendin6# The e's act*all+ a 7e=site called BT,.am#com that is pee -to-pee =itcoin mic o lendin6# -"nd so =asicall+, +o* can =e a =o o7e o in$esto the =o o7e s can define like =asicall+ the pa amete s of the loan, like the inte est ate the+' e 7illin6 to pa+, the e's an optional soft c edit check, and a pee -to-pee ep*tation s+stem that 6oes alon6 7ith this# In$esto s 6et some pe ks as 7ell, so that mi6ht =e somethin6 that's comin6 o*t, =*t I ha$en't hea d a=o*t it, +et# "nd eas! I'$e *sed it# I *nfo t*natel+ ha$e some =ad ne7s to offe the e# I ha$e *sed BT,.am and I find that the concept and p i-Stephanie! /id +o* 6et +o* self in a .am: %la*6hs& "nd eas! I 6ot m+self in a =it of a >am# I think the concept is = illiant, I think the e2ec*tion is not E*ite the e +et# So, m+ defa*lt ate on BT,.am 7as MFJ# Stepahine! 9o7# "nd eas! That compa es to MJ on Lendin6 ,l*= and a=o*t LJ on 8I1"# (e e's the p o=lem! it's an anon+mo*s c* enc+, the e' e a soft c edit check as +o* said, man+ of the acco*nts a e linked onl+ =+ mea6e info mation, so ca$eat empto , fo s* e ' =*t at the same time, he e's the p o=lem# 9hen one of those loans 7ent defa*lt, the e 7as a=sol*tel+ nothin6 in te ms of eco* se# BT,.am didn't e$en espond to emails# In fact, +o* can't p*t a ne6ati$e e$ie7 a6ainst

one of the =o o7e s *nless +o* ha$e s*fficient e$ie7s +o* self as a =o o7e # 9ell, I'm not a =o o7e , I 7as a lende # I had no e$ie7s a6ainst m+ acco*nt, so I co*ldn't essentiall+ p*t a ne6ati$e e$ie7 a6ainst the people 7ho had defa*lted, and the+ 7ent o*t and took mo e loans# So, 7hoops - =adl+-st *ct* ed# Stephanie! 9ell, thank +o* fo sha in6 that e2pe ience, I think it's eall+ impo tant fo people to kno7# "nd eas! I think I didn't ha$e the 6 eat e2pe ience =eca*se it's $e + m*ch a =eta attempt# -"nd I 7ish them all the l*ck in the 7o ld if the+ can lea n f om those e2pe iences and imp o$e them# I 7as $e + m*ch 7illin6 to lose that mone+# I p o=a=l+ p*t in th ee o fo* =itcoins, not a h*6e amo*nt, >*st to t + it o*t# I'm not *pset a=o*t it# -"nd in fact, I hope the+' e a=le to imp o$e the se $ice =eca*se it's s*ch a = illiant se $ice that's a=sol*tel+ needed in Bitcoin# Stephanie! It's like 7hen +o* make a loan to +o* co*sin# /on't loan them an+thin6 that +o* 7o*ldn't conside a 6ift# "nd eas! 9ell, I can al7a+s t ack m+ co*sin do7n and kick him in the n*ts# Stephanie! That's t *e# No* can't do that 7ith a Bitcoin add ess# 4)*sic B eak5 "dam! .oinin6 me this mo nin6 is .oseph /a$id, ,E0 of ,"1i te2, a ,anadian e2chan6e and +o*' e act*all+ the la 6est pla+e in the ,anadian space these da+s, i6ht: .oseph! Nes, 7e a e the sin6le la 6est in ,anada 7ith t7ent+-million dolla s t aded since inception# 0f co* se, a ma>o it+ of that has =een in o* second +ea , 7hen Bitcoin eall+ sta ted takin6 off# B*t +es, 7e' e the onl+ ones in ,anada# "dam! 9e talk a lot a=o*t the e6*lato + sit*ation in the @S, and I had a con$e sation 7ith Pack f om the Lamass* Bitcoin $endin6 machine# The+' e kind of in the same sit*ation 7he e the e a e diffe ent e6*lations in the @nited States than the e a e in ,anada# (e said it's act*all+ m*ch =ette in ,anada - the+' e takin6 a li6hte to*ch 7ith the e6*lato + side# Paint *s a pict* e of 7hat it's like ope atin6 an e2chan6e in ,anada these da+s# .oseph! I'm 6lad +o*' e 6ettin6 this di ectl+ f om me, =eca*se it's a little =it inacc* ate 7hen people make comments like that# 9hat eall+ hit *s in the media latel+ has =een the a ticle that has =een ci c*latin6 the 7e=, 7he e the+ impl+ that ,anada is a safe ha$en fo Bitcoin e2chan6es, and the ,anadian e6*lato + a*tho ities don't eall+ $ie7 it the same 7a+# "nd 7hat's eall+ act*all+ happenin6 is CINTG",, the e6*lato + =od+ in ,anada that monito s mone+ t ansfe s of an+ kinds, and deals 7ith anti-mone+ la*nde in6 e6*lations, as 7ell as 8N,, 8no7 No* ,*stome , e6*lations - the+ ha$e *led that Bitcoin is a =a te inst *ment and that Bitcoin e2chan6es do not ha$e to =e e6iste ed as a mone+ se $ice =*siness# (o7e$e , the =anks %7hich is 7hat eall+ matte s he e& do not take di ection f om CINTG",# That's e2t emel+ impo tant to *nde stand# 9hen 7e' e t +in6 to ope ate in ,anada, 7e ha$e to satisf+ the =ankin6

eE*i ements, and as fa as the =anks a e conce ned, and the 7o ld is conce ned 7hen it comes to Bitcoin, e$e +one is $e + ne7 to it# The+ don't kno7 7hat it is, it's a =i6 h*6e 6 e+ a ea# It's a =i6 lon6 sto +, the e's not simple e2planations to 6i$e them of e2actl+ 7hat a Bitcoin is# -So, 7hat the+ see i6ht a7a+ 7hen +o* look at =itcoin and ,anadian dolla s =ein6 deposited and 7ithd a7n, is the+ >*st see isk# The+ >*st see an *nkno7n, and =eca*se of that *nkno7n the+ sa+ no =efo e the+ sa+ +es# Basicall+, 7e ha$e to app oach the =ank in a p oacti$e stance# 9e ha$e to app oach the =ank and =*ild those elationships f om the =e6innin6, like 7e ha$e, =+ sa+in6 thin6s like 7e ha$e a le6al team, 7e' e p oacti$e 7ith e6*lato + f ont# 9e act*all+ 7ant the ,anadian 6o$e nment to eco6niDe *s and ta2 *s# Please ta2 *s! 3ST is a =i6 one fo e2ample# In ,anada 7e ha$e a 3oods and Se $ices Ta2, and the e's these =i6 lon6 in$esti6ations that 6o on# /oes +o* =*siness need to =e e6iste ed 7ith the 3ST: /o +o* need to pa+ ta2es to the 6o$e nment like a 3oods and Se $ices Ta2: Instead of 7aitin6 fo a *lin6, 7e collect it and emit it no7! -So it's thin6s like that 7e' e doin6 that's sho7in6 the =ank that 7e a e se io*s a=o*t =ein6 p oacti$e# 9e' e sa+in6 no to c*stome s, =+ the 7a+, that 7ant to deposit la 6e amo*nts of cash and =+pass all these mechanisms# This is 7he e it 6ets t ick+# E$en tho*6h CINTG", sa+s no p o=lem, +o* don't need to follo7 these *les, 7e a e follo7in6 them and 7e' e sa+in6 no to c*stome s and act*all+ t* nin6 c*stome s a7a+ that 7ant to =+pass the *les and e6*lations# -So, e2plainin6 all this to the =anks 6i$es *s that ed6e and lets *s ope ate# and of co* se# the main eason 7e' e in ope ation 7ith the =anks is =eca*se 7e act*all+ ha$e that mone+ se $ice =*siness license th o*6h o* in$esto and =*siness pa tne , T"PE Inte national, so the+ a e a e6iste ed mone+ se $ice =*siness# The+ a e collectin6 o* pa+ments and emittin6 o* pa+ments to c*stome s and satisf+in6 all CINTG", and ")C eE*i ements# "dam! Essentiall+, +o*' e compl+in6 7ith e6*lations 7ith e6*lations +o* don't need to compl+ to-.oseph! That's co ect# "dam! -not to satisf+ the e6*lato s, =*t to satisf+ the =anks, =eca*se othe 7ise, the+ don't 7ant to do =*siness 7ith +o*# Is that i6ht: .oseph! That's e2actl+ 7hat is happenin6 he e in ,anada# "dam! See, that's eall+ inte estin6, =eca*se that act*all+ st ikes me as almost =ein6 a complete like it's the same sit*ation in the @S, =eca*se ' so, I had a con$e sation 7ith .a ed 8enna of T adehill, 7hich kind of takes it the othe 7a+# The+ sa+, 0ka+, =eca*se 7e' e so conce ned 7ith compliance and 7e' e so conce ned the *les a e 6oin6 to chan6e f* the o*t, 7e' e t* nin6 a7a+ c*stome s that ha$e less than ten-tho*sand dolla s that the+ 7ant to spend on this# -So, +o*' e act*all+ takin6 the opposite app oach, and a6ain, thei conce n isn't the =ank =*t thei conce n is the e6*lato + st *ct* e, 7he e the+' e conce ned the e6*lations a e 6oin6 to chan6e and =ecome ha she in a late point, and in doin6 so, essentiall+ et oacti$el+ make thei actions in the past not 7o k# @nless the+ do this p oacti$e - a e +o* conce ned a=o*t the e6*lato + s+stem chan6in6, o is this >*st a=o*t the =anks fo +o*: .oseph! 9ell a6ain, =eca*se 7e' e p oacti$e, 7e 7ant the e6*lato + s+stem to chan6e# 9e 7ant the e6*lato + =od+ to =e fo med in ,anada# 9e ha$e the am=itio*s 6oal of =ein6 pa t of that

mo$ement, I 7o*ld like nothin6 =ette than to =e on the =oa d of di ecto s of the ne7 e6*lato + a6enc+ in ,anada that 6o$e ns and e6*lates di6ital c* encies# 9e ha$e a eall+ inte estin6 de$elopment on that f ont, if I ma+ tell +o* a=o*t it - this is $e + 6 o*nd= eakin6 st*ff in ,anada, is the ,anadian 6o$e nment has somethin6 called the )int ,hip p o>ect, and the )int ,hip is act*all+ di6ital c* enc+ in ,anada c eated 7ith a c o7n co po ation, 7hich >*st means 6o$e nment co po ation he e in ,anada, and *n =+ the ,anadian 6o$e nment# Endo sed =+ the Go+al ,anadian )int, and it's =ein6 *sed as a testin6-the-7ate s-t+pe sample p o>ect i6ht no7, so it's not a c* enc+ +o* can =*+ i6ht no7 and *se in ci c*lation in ,anada# The+' e on the =e6innin6 sta6es of int od*cin6 this as a testin6 di6ital c* enc+ in ,anada# -So +o*'ll =e a=le to 6o to an+ ,anadian =ank fo e2ample and chan6e ,anadian dolla s into )int ,hips# -"nd to follo7 that e$en f* the )int ,hips into Bitcoins# 9o*ldn't that =e amaDin6: -So the e's some inte estin6 st*ff 6oin6 on in ,anada# "dam! Neah, 7hen +o* talk a=o*t 7antin6 to =e pa t of the e6*lato + st *ct* e that +o*' e t +in6 to incenti$iDe the c eation of =asicall+ - in +o* mind is this an ind*st + 6 o*p that is selfe6*latin6 e2chan6es and self- e6*latin6, o is this a 6o$e nment e6*lato + =od+ that +o* 7o*ld 7ant to =e a pa t of, to act*all+ =e a pa t of the 6o$e nment in that 7a+: .oseph! In +o* fi st scena io of some kind of self- e6*latin6 ind*st + 6 o*p that 7o*ld e$ent*all+ me 6e into a 6o$e nment =od+# -So, I don't kno7 7hat steps it's 6oin6 to take# I fo esee sta tin6 7ith an ind*st + self- e6*lation 6 o*p, and then 6oin6 to7a d 6o$e nment# -B*t I don't think +o* can stop the 6o$e nment noticin6 this# "s Bitcoin 6ets =i66e in ,anada, and mo e and mo e people sta t *sin6 it, the 6o$e nment is 6oin6 to notice# Co e2ample one of m+ am=itio*s plans of esta tin6 $e + sho tlie 4sic5 than ne2t month is to si6n *p e$e + sin6le - o t + to si6n *p - e$e + online ,anadian me chant that e2cepts online pa+ments to add a Bitcoin shoppin6 ca d checko*t =*tton to thei 7e= pa6e# This, I think, is the =est 7a+ to ed*cate the p*=lic, =eca*se 7e ha$e to emem=e somethin6 he e a=o*t Bitcoin# 9e =oth kno7, 7e' e =oth follo7in6 this, =*t I estimate that a la 6e ma>o it+ of the pop*lation doesn't e$en kno7 7hat a Bitcoin is, so# The e's a lot of people 7ho don't kno7 7hat's 6oin6 on in the 7hole Bitcoin e$ol*tion, so the =est 7a+ I think to 6et the 7o d o*t the e is to 6et on that shoppin6 ca t checko*t sites# "ll these c*stome s that a e 6oin6 on thei dail+ acti$ities of p* chasin6 6oods online see this thin6 called a Bitcoin checko*t, =eside 1isa, )aste ,a d and Pa+pal then the+ see the p ice diffe ence - oka+, O1BB on 1isa, )aste ,a d, and Pa+pal - OKF on Bitcoin checko*t, and then the+ ask themsel$es a E*estion - 7h+ is it cheape in Bitcoin, and 7hat is a =itcoin: -"nd that's 7he e I think 7e' e 6oin6 to sta t sp eadin6 like 7ildfi e# That's 6oin6 to i6nite the 6o$e nment a little =it 7hen the+ sta t seein6 a ma>o it+ of online ,anadian =*siness add this alte nate c* enc+ fo checko*t# "dam! No* mentioned the )int ,hip ea lie in o* con$e sation# The )int ,hip is somethin6 that popped *p a co*ple of +ea s a6o, and I 7asn't a7a e it 7as 6ettin6 and t action# 9ith the )int ,hip, is this a c +ptoc* enc+ o is it >*st a di6ital c* enc+: I mean, does it ha$e and of the ad$anta6es Bitcoin does: .oseph! Nes, it does# I don't kno7 too m*ch a=o*t it, =*t I kno7 eno*6h to kno7 that e$en if it is a c +ptoc* enc+, o di6ital c* enc+, o ho7e$e the+ 7ant to do this, it is cont olled# The e is a se $e some7he e 7ith a =alance of )int ,hips on it# No* co*ld chan6e the =alance $e + easil+#

0f co* se, +o* can't do that 7ith Bitcoin# -So, it has simila ities to Bitcoin in that it can =e t ansmitted di6itall+ online, =*t I think that's 7he e the simila ities end# "dam! Paint me a pict* e he e# 9hat's the 7innin6 scena io, +o* kno7, if +o*' e s*ccessf*l 7ith +o* am=itio*s plans, 7hat does the landscape look like in a +ea o t7o +ea s: .oseph! The 7innin6 scena io is to =e officiall+ eco6niDed =+ the ,anadian 6o$e nment, to ha$e a license to ope ate, to eE*i e a license to ha$e ope ation, =eca*se i6ht no7 7e ha$e a lot of 9ild 9est co7=o+-t+pe ope ations that think the+ co*ld >*st sta t a Bitcoin e2chan6e, open *p co po ate acco*nts, don't e$en 7o + a=o*t mone+ se $ice =*siness licenses, and accept pa+ments th o*6h all kinds of fo ms# That act*all+ make the ind*st + and make the e2chan6e space in ,anada look =ad# Ideall+, I'd 7ant an ope atin6 en$i onment 7he e a license is eE*i ed to ope ate, 6*idelines ha$e to =e follo7ed, 6o$e nment e6*lations a e satisfied 7hen it comes to mone+-in and mone+-o*t, official eco6nition, and a license 7o*ld =e ideal ope atin6 stat*s# "dam! In this 7innin6 scena io, 7hat this 6i$es +o* is the 7illin6ness and the t *st of not onl+ =anks, =*t of =i6 =*siness to pa ticipate in the s+stem and to accept this s+stem, =eca*se this t+pe of scena io, 7he e +o* ha$e a e6*lato + st *ct* e and a licensin6 st *ct* e, lends le6itimac+ to it in the e+es of the 6o$e nment# Is that i6ht: .oseph! It does, and it also makes o* =ankin6 elationships a lot easie # "nothe =i6 headline ne7s and =i6 de$elopment in ,anada he e has =een the =ank sh*tdo7n# E$e +one's foc*sin6 on =ank sh*tdo7ns# The =ankin6 net7o k in ,anada is $e + diffe ent then in the States# 9e ha$e si2 ma>o , ma>o =anks, then 7e ha$e c edit *nions that a e pa t of one ma>o net7o k# -B*t 7e don't ha$e these p i$ate =anks and these thi d pa t+ =anks like the @S does# So in ,anda 7hen 7e sta ted +o* onl+ choices fo ma>o =anks a e T/, Scotia Bank, Bank of )ont eal, ,IB,, Go+al =ank# -So I >*st listed to +o* some of the ma>o =anks# 9e ha$e (SB,, and IN3 and othe ones, =*t those fi$e ones a e p ett+ m*ch the ma>o =anks# -So, the thin6 7ith those =anks 7e e, 7hen 7e sta ted 7ith them 7e sta ted acceptin6 cash deposits at those =anks# Then those =anks sta ted sh*ttin6 *s do7n, one =+ one# E$e + sin6le =ank I >*st listed to +o* had sh*t *s do7n fo cash deposits# 0ka+: "dam! Gi6ht# .oseph! -"nd that's =eca*se, a6ain, of thei conce n o$e ")L, not o$e f a*d, =eca*se +o* can't commit f a*d =+ depositin6 cash, and then, fi$e min*tes late , 6oin6 to the telle and sa+in6 I didn't deposit that cash# -So thei conce n 7as not the f a*d aspect, it 7as the ")L aspect and the 8N,, 8no7 No* ,*stome , aspect# No7 in the @S, look at the landscape# It's m*ch m*ch diffe ent +o* ha$e a compan+ like Bitinstant that allo7s cash deposits ac oss the @S at somethin6 like MBBB diffe ent =anks# -So that's $e + s* p isin6 and shockin6 to me, that that kind of acti$it+ is allo7ed in the @S, =*t not allo7ed in ,anada# -"nd the eason it's not allo7ed in ,anada, a6ain =ack to m+ o i6inal point, is =anks think it's a =i6 6 e+ a ea, the+ don't ha$e an eas+ ans7e to cash, so the+ sh*t cash do7n# -So the point to m+ 7hole statement he e is that +o* don't ha$e to deal 7ith *s in cash, the e a e othe 7a+s to deal 7ith *s# The ma>o 7a+, i6ht no7, is online =ill pa+ments, and di ect deposit ,and di ect 7ithd a7 to +o* o7n ,anadian =ank acco*nt# No7 that is somethin6 the =ank does allo7 *nde a mone+ se $ice =*siness license, so

that is 7hat 7e' e doin6 no7# 9e ha$e m*ltiple 7a+s that 7e' e 6oin6 to inc ease that# 9e mi6ht e$en act*all+ 6et =ack into cash, =*t the ke+ messa6e he e, of co* se, is +o* need to satisf+ e6*lations on one hand =*t at the same time +o* ha$e to ed*cate the =anks and not p*sh it too fa # The+' e lettin6 *s do online =ill pa+ments and di ect deposit, di ect 7ithd a7, =*t the+' e stoppin6 *s and c*ttin6 *s off 7ith the cash# "dam! No* said ")L, anti-mone+ la*nde in6, i6ht: .oseph! Neah# "dam! The E*estion 7e keep comin6 =ack to 7ith the =anks is 7hethe o not it's i6no ance, +o* kno7 - the+ >*st don't *nde stand this and so the e's no incenti$e fo them to take it, o if it's fea : Beca*se a lot of people feel like the f*ndamental technolo6ies and some of the f*ndamental thin6s that Bitcoin does and ena=les so t of o=soletes =ankin6# )o$in6 fo 7a d, do +o* think this is somethin6 that's 6oin6 to chan6e =ankin6 and the e's esistance to it f om that an6le, o do +o* think it's simpl+ a kno7led6e 6ap: .oseph! Let's fi st *nde stand a6ain that the =anks - =ack to +o* E*estion a=o*t fea - the =anks don't kno7 7hat this is, so it's not kno7in6 pl*s a com=ination of fea # Banks a e $e + iska$e se, i6ht: The+' e e2t emel+ isk-a$e se, especiall+ he e in ,anada 7he e 7e ha$e the 6o$e nment - the+' e called c o7n co po ationsQ co po ations *n =+ the 6o$e nment of ,anada the+' e *nde specific mandates to not take on an+ kinds of isk+ =*siness 7hatsoe$e # 9hen +o* 7alk into a ,anadian =ank, the e's act*all+ a sheet the+ 6i$e +o* that sa+s if +o*' e this t+pe of =*siness, and the+ act*all+ list them, don't e$en =othe appl+in6 fo a =ank acco*nt# The+' e eall+ isk-a$e se# It's 6oin6 to take a lon6 time, I think, to ha$e the =anks in ,anada to come a o*nd and ed*cate on the pa+ment method of cash# B*t lets not fo 6et he e 7hat the+' e doin6, the+' e al ead+ allo7in6 c* ent state, and c* ent state is as lon6 as the mone+ flo7s th o*6h a mone+ se $ice =*siness that is licensed, and as lon6 as p ope d*e dili6ence is pe fo med, and as lon6 as the elationship, the pe sonal elationship the+ ha$e 7ith me and m+ le6al team and m+ la7+e s, and that is all solid and in tact, the+ allo7 *s to ope ate# -So it's 6oin6 to take the 6o$e nment of ,anada, I think, to step in and sa+, +o* kno7, 7e' e 6oin6 to eco6niDe the Bitcoin, and 7e' e 6oin6 to 6i$e them a license, and then I can take that license to the =ank, and 7ith this license, I can add on cash, and I 7ant to add on this, and I 7ant to add on that# It's 6oin6 to take the 6o$e nment and the licensin6 a6encies to make the =anks chan6e thei minds, I think# The ,anadian Ge$en*e "6enc+, ,G", did act*all+ *le that an+ capital 6ains on Bitcoin t ansactions m*st =e epo ted, and that is a *lin6, and 7e' e follo7in6 that inte nall+ as a compan+, and 7e' e ans7e in6 that to an+ c*stome that asks that E*estion# "dam! It seems like the a=ilit+ to cont ol and e2e t e6*lato + fo ce o$e c +ptoc* enc+ is kind of diffic*lt =eca*se of >*st the 7a+ it's =*ilt# 0*tside of these limited e2chan6es - =eca*se +o*' e one of the ma>o e2chan6es, +o* a e the ma>o e2chan6e left in ,anada, and the e a e a fe7 othe small ones, and +o* can co*nt them on t7o hands - I'm t +in6 to fi6* e o*t ho7 possi=le it is to e6*late Bitcoin o*tside of the e2chan6es, =eca*se the e2chan6es a e the choke points# .oseph! I think it's $e + possi=le# I think it's $e + possi=le =eca*se this act*all+ elates pe fectl+ to the comments I 7ant to make he e# This is an e2t emel+ impo tant point in an+ co*nt + and

that's 7h+ I'm $e + inte ested in 7hat happened in Ital+# I eall+ sho*ld ead *p =ack on that, =*t f om 7hat I emem=e on 7hat happened, eithe Ital+ o C ance, =*t I think it 7as Ital+, t ied to sh*t do7n Bitcoin e2chan6es $e + ea l+ in Bitcoin 7o ld, 7e e +o* a7a e of this: "dam! I 7as not, no# .oseph! This is >*st f om m+ memo + lon6 a6o =ack in +ea one, act*all+ p o=a=l+ in month se$en of the Bitcoin ,lim=, 7hen Bitcoin passed a o*nd the t7ent+ =*cks a ea# -So the Italian 6o$e nment t ied to sh*t Bitcoin e2chan6es do7n# The+ s*cceeded# " co*ple months 7ent =+, somethin6 6ot appealed, the e2chan6e o7ne s 7ent to the s*p eme co* t, and appealed the decision, and then that 6ot o$e t* ned, and the+ 7e e allo7ed to ope ate# That 7as a lon6 time a6o, tho*6h, so thin6s ma+ ha$e chan6ed no7# -B*t that = in6s me to m+ point# The+ co*ld $e + simpl+ and $e + easil+ decide that the+ >*st 7ant to sh*t the e2chan6es do7n# The+ can simpl+ phone *p the =anks and sa+ 7hoe$e is doin6 the =itcoin e2chan6e, sh*t them do7n# It's ille6al, 7e' e 6oin6 to >*st make it ille6al - the 6o$e nment can do that# That's one a$en*e the 6o$e nment can 6o# The second, of co* se, is e$e +thin6 7e ha$e >*st =een disc*ssin6 le6aliDin6 it, 6ettin6 e6*lated, eco6niDin6 it, ta2in6 it# That's a$en*e t7o# -B*t if 7e >*st talk a=o*t a$en*e one he e fo a second### The 6o$e nment can >*st step in and p*ll the pl*6# If that does happen, ,anadians 7o*ld ha$e no choice then to 6o offsho e and 6o deal 7ith diffe ent co*nt ies, take thei mone+ offsho e someho7# 9hat 7o*ld o* action plan =e: That's somethin6 I st *66le 7ith e$e + da+# 9o*ld 7e take o* se $e s offsho e as 7ell, and contin*e 7ith o* c*stome =ase and t + to se $ice ,anadians: 9ell, of co* se, 7e can't do that# The 6o$e nment makes it ille6al and the 6o$e nment =e6ins seiDin6 ph+sical locations# That's eall+ ho7 the 6o$e nment co*ld step in he e, and that eall+ is a conce n fo me in the Bitcoin space - not >*st fo ,anada, =*t fo the 7o ld# No* ha$e @S politicians and senato s that a e a6ainst it and a e on eco d p*=licl+ sa+in6 this is not 6ood# Bitcoin has an ima6e p o=lem# -"nd that's anothe thin6 I 7ant to add ess, is Bitcoin's ima6e p o=lem, and ho7 +o* can =*+ d *6s, and 6*ns, and se2, and all this st*ff 7ith Bitcoins# No* can do the same thin6 7ith cash, =+ the 7a+# That's 7hat people lea$e o*t, is that >*st like Bitcoin has an ima6e p o=lem, it has the e2act same iss*e that cash does# That's 7h+, to a lot of people, I e2plain that =itcoins a e like di6ital cash# That's a $e + eas+ e2planation of 7hat a Bitcoin is - it's like di6ital cash# -So that's so t of m+ on6oin6 conce n - the 6o$e nment co*ld >*st sa+ 7e' e sh*ttin6 +o* do7n# That's 7he e it co*ld 6o# "dam! No*' e act*all+ kind of in the mi2 7ith this, so 7hat do +o* think the chances a e, elati$e - I mean, o=$io*sl+, this is totall+ off the c*ff - 7hat do +o* think the chances a e of a$en*e " $s a$en*e B: .oseph! Gi6ht no7, toda+, =eca*se 7e' e so ea l+ - =eca*se 7e' e so ea l+ in Bitcoin, the e$ol*tion is >*st =e6innin6 he e# 9e' e $e + ea l+ in it# The chance of a$en*e ", the 6o$e nment sh*ttin6 *s do7n, I think is $e +, $e + lo7# "6ain, $e + fe7 people e$en kno7 7e' e o*t the e# -B*t as thin6s p o6 ess he e in the ne2t +ea , as 7e 6et the me chant si6n *ps happenin6 and 7e sta t ed*catin6 =*siness o7ne s a=o*t ho7 Bitcoin is eall+ a 7a+-=ette pa+ment method that the+'$e eall+ e$e seen, that's 7hen the 6o$e nment mi6ht take notice# -B*t, if +o* 7ant m+ pe sonal p ediction, I eall+ hesitate to 6i$e p edictions, especiall+ =ein6 ,E0 and e$e +one =ein6 a=le to 6o =ack in time, and listenin6 to m+ comments, and sa+in6 he's makin6 all these p edictions, I'm al7a+s ca*tioned =+ m+ ad$ise s not to make p edictions, =*t I ma+ make an

e2ception and make a p ediction in this case# 9hat do +o* think: "dam! I think that if +o* 7ant to, that's fine# The ealit+ of this is, this is s*ch a complicated topic# I think that p edictions a e >*st 6*esses# So, +o* kno7, that's ho7 7e t eat em# 9e make p edictions all the time# .oseph! E2actl+# The+' e >*st h*nches and 6*esses# I'll 6i$e +o* mine if +o* 7ant it# -So, I think 7e a e 6oin6 to 6o to a$en*e B# I think the 6o$e nments a e 6oin6 to eco6niDe that 7e need to =e ta2ed, 7e need to =e e6*lated - that if the+ t + to make it ille6al, that it'll >*st c eate a lot mo e p o=lems then it'll sol$e# If one 7o ld 6o$e nment steps do7n, and p*ts the 6a$el do7n, and sa+s Bitcoins a e ille6al in this co*nt +, othe co*nt ies ma+ eithe follo7 s*it - the+ ma+ ha$e thei o7n *les# -So then, of co* se, citiDens 7ill flock to the othe co*nt +# -B*t, lon6sto +-sho t, m+ h*nch and m+ pe sonal 6*ess is that 6o$e nments a en't 6oin6 to make it ille6al, =*t a e simpl+ 6oin6 to ta2 it hea$il+ and t + to e6*late it hea$il+# "dam! I'm on- eco d fo sa+in6 that, =+ the end of the +ea , 7e' e 6oin6 to see con6 essional hea in6s on this 7ithin the @nited States, talkin6 a=o*t specificall+ Bitcoin and c +ptoc* encies as 7ell# /o +o* think the e's a timeline like that fo ,anada, o do +o* think that it's >*st *np edicta=le at this point: .oseph! No7he e nea it# I 7o*ldn't e$en $ent* e to sa+ 7ithin the +ea # "6ain, =eca*se it's so ne7, =eca*se the+ ha dl+ kno7 a=o*t it, I don't think it's e$en a topic of con$e sation# The e mi6ht =e a co*ple of )L"'s in ,anada, mem=e s of le6islati$e assem=l+, that e$en kno7 that Bitcoin e2ists, and 7e act*all+ contacted them# -"nd thei esponse has =een, 7o7, this so*nds like a ne7 inte estin6 thin6, and then the+ >*st take 7eeks to 6et thei head 7 apped a o*nd it and don't et* n o* phone calls# It's so ne7 he e I don't think it'll happen this +ea # "dam! .oseph /a$id, ,"1e te2# Thank +o* $e + m*ch# .oseph! Thank +o* fo the inte $ie7# "dam! Let's Talk Bitcoin is hea d each 7eek =+ tho*sands of people 7ho a e pa ticipatin6 in the ne7 di6ital econom+# 0* listene =ase of Bitcoin o7ne s, mine s, in$esto s, technolo6ists and me chants is 6 o7in6 fast# 9e offe a limited n*m=e of sho t ad$e tisin6 slots in each sho7 to keep o* listene s en6a6ed and p o$ide a ma2im*m impact fo o* sponso s# If +o*'d like to talk to *s a=o*t Let's Talk Bitcoin, send *s an email at sponso sAletstalk=itcoin#com 4"/5 Stephanie! If I sho7ed +o* a 7e=site 7he e +o* co*ld easil+ p* chase elect onics f om the 7o lds la 6est dist i=*to 7ith =itcoins at BJ ma k*p, 7o*ld +o* think it 7as too 6ood to =e t *e: 3ood ne7s, it's eal and it's at =itcoinsto e#com choose f om half a million items, sa$e mone+ o$e "maDon and Ne7e66, and con$e t +o* =itcoins to eal 7o ld items# No* can e$en =*+ 7ith p i$ac+# "ll the+ need is a shippin6 add ess# B*t, don't take m+ 7o d fo it, see fo +o* self at =itcoinsto e#com 4)*sic Cades5

"dam! Lets 6et =ack to the a ticle, /espite ha$in6 a o=*st mo=ile pa+ment net7o k 7ith )PES", 8en+a is still s*=>ect to a sle7 of economic iss*es s*ch as co *ption, inflation, and emittance costs# 8en+a faces hi6h co *ption costin6 mo e than O1 =illion dolla s pe +ea %app o2imatel+ LJ of 3/P&, 7ith indi$id*al 8en+ans pa+in6 an estimated 1< = i=es pe month# )-PES" has not a$oided this t end, 7ith 11R cases of f a*d in IB11 alone, es*ltin6 in millions lost# " p otocol like Bitcoin, 7hich emo$es $*lne a=ilit+ to h*man co *ption, 7o*ld likel+ =e a 7elcome ent ant into the 7o ld of mo=ile pa+ments# )-PES" also comes at a cost to it;s *se s# 9ith Safa icom;s fees an6in6 f om 1-1BJ fo mone+ t ansfe s, *se s a e losin6 $al*e to a cent aliDed entit+ 7ith e$e + t ansaction# 0n top of that, the 8en+an 6o$e nment ecentl+ =e6an ta2in6 )-PES" t ansfe s, 7hich 7ill f* the inc ease costs =+ 1BJ# "nothe s*=stantial =enefit that Bitcoin has o$e )-PES" is 7ith e6a ds to inflation# 0nl+ in the last +ea , 8en+a has some7hat stemmed inflation afte eachin6 peak ates a=o$e LBJ in IBB8# Tho*6h conce ns lin6e 7ith e6a ds to =itcoin;s $olatilit+ compa ed to de$eloped ma ket c* encies, the elati$e consistenc+ of =itcoin co*ld =e a 7elcomed chan6e in less sta=le e6ions# "nd eas! I think the e's a dan6e o*s tendenc+ fo 6eeks to t + to ass*me technolo6ical sol*tions to social p o=lems# ,o *ption is not a technolo6+ iss*e, it's an instit*tional and political iss*e, and it occ* s =eca*se of 7idesp ead p o=lems in a societ+ and the lack of instit*tional cont ol to sol$e those p o=lems, I'$e li$ed in co *pt societies, I kno7 7hat it's like to pa+ = i=es# -"nd, the p o=lem is that 7hen it =ecomes so ent enched into the c*lt* e it's $e + diffic*lt to esist e$en if +o* a=sol*tel+ 7ant to# No* can't 6et +o* d i$e 's license e$en if +o* can pass the test and can d i$e 7ell, =eca*se the = i=e is eE*i ed# So, +o* kno7, +o* ha$e to# No* can't 6et a docto 's appointment *nless +o* = i=e the docto # No* can't 6et +o* pape 7o k done *nless +o* = i=e the =* ea*c at# So, essentiall+ +o* s*cc*m= to this p ess* e# Technolo6+ 7on't chan6e that# No*'ll >*st = i=e people 7ith Bitcoin and in fact, if an+thin6 it mi6ht make it easie =eca*se f ictionless comme ce means f ictionless = i=es i6ht: I'm not necessa il+ con$inced that technolo6+ is the sol*tion he e, =*t at the same time, I think that Bitcoin 7o*ld =e a fantastic fit in man+ de$elopin6 co*nt ies# .*st like )-PES" it offe s immediate pe son to pe son t ansactions 7ith $e + little technolo6+ pe haps, especiall+ if 7e can adapt it to *sin6 S)S, the standa d sho*ld =e, can it 7o k on a Nokia I1BB, a phone f om 1B +ea s a6o, =eca*se that's eall+ the technolo6+ =ase in these co*nt ies# "dam! 1< = i=es pe month, tho*6h, pe pe son - I mean like, is that small: I ha$e no concept of this# I'm ,alifo nia-=o n and aised# This is not somethin6 I ha$e an+ e2pe ience 7ith# That's a small amo*nt fo a co*nt + like this: "nd eas! 0h +eah, a=sol*tel+# 1< = i=es a month is nothin6, if +o* 6o to India it's p o=a=l+ 1< = i=es a da+# Se io*sl+, this is the no m fo the est of the 7o ld# It's $e + eas+ to see thin6s f om a diffe ent pe specti$e if +o*' e =o n and aised in the States# This is the no m fo the est of the 7o ld, this is 7hat oils the machine, this is ho7 =* ea*c ac+ 7o ks, and this is ho7 most people in the de$elopin6 7o ld 7ho ha$e an+ meas* a=le a*tho it+, this is ho7 the+ 6et paid, this is thei sala +# The don't make m*ch 6ettin6 paid =+ the 6o$e nment o =+ the fees the+ collect, so essentiall+, +o* ha$e this 7hole shado7 econom+# It's almost like tippin6, so the 7a+ that tippin6 7o ks in the @S, and most fo ei6ne s don't 6et it is, oh, 7ait, +o* ha$e to pa+ IBJ on top of e$e + pa+ment fo this se $ice: 9ell, that's not co *ption, =*t in othe co*nt ies, co *ption 7o ks in the e2act same 7a+# No* ass*me the people a e not makin6 m*ch on the 6o$e nment

sala + and the efo e it's no mal fo them to collect a small e2t a fee# It's almost like a tip, and it's in the fo m of a = i=e# Stephanie! It's not like a tip, it's not - a tip is 7a+ mo e $ol*nta + than somethin6 like a = i=e# I mean, especiall+ 7hen it's =acked =+ political fo ce, and p ess* e, and the a*tho it+ that these people ha$e to make +o* pa+ fo it in some 7a+ if +o* don't pa+ them a = i=e# No* can't easil+ >*st lea$e a co*nt +, especiall+ if +o*' e =o n in the de$elopin6 7o ld, and 6o to some7he e 7he e the e's not ampant = i=e +# (o7e$e , +o* don't ha$e to eat at a esta* ant and pa+ a se $e a tip# "dam! Nes, that's t *e, e2cept 7he e it's not# )a+=e this is diffe ent in othe pa ts of the co*nt +, =*t he e, most of the time, if +o* ha$e mo e than si2 people in +o* pa t+, the e is a mandato + tip that is p*t on +o* =ill, so it mi6ht feel like it's $ol*nta + =eca*se, he+, +o* 6et to choose to pa+ it# -B*t, the option =esides that is not pa+in6 +o* =ill# -So I don't see it as a $ol*nta + thin6 in that case# Stephanie! No=od+'s holdin6 a 6*n *p to +o* head and sa+in6 eat at this esta* ant, o eat at an+ esta* ant, i6ht: No* ha$e options fo that =*t, the+ a e holdin6 a 6*n to +o* head and sa+in6 fill o*t this pape 7o k, and +o*' e s*=>ect to m+ *les, and +o* ha$e to 6i$e me a = i=e as 7ell# "nd eas! -So, I think the onl+ compa ison +o* ha$e 7ith a tip - of co* se, coe cion is an iss*e# B*t the compa ison +o* ha$e 7ith a tip is that it's em=edded in the c*lt* e and all economic t ansactions# -"nd +o* ha$e to ealiDe that these = i=es a e not >*st paid to the police, o to the =* ea*c at that's app o$in6 +o* application, the+' e paid to e$e + pe son in$ol$ed in e$e + t ansaction +o* make# No* 6et +o* ef i6e ato epai pe son to come in, +o* meat s*pplie , +o* ophthalmolo6ist, +o* kid's teache , +o* kid's socce coach - 7hate$e it mi6ht =e - and the+ all take = i=es, and in fact, = i=es a e ho7 +o* do it# It's almost ine$ita=le =eca*se people a en't 6ettin6 paid an+ othe 7a+# The =ottom line he e is that 47allet:5 is completel+ co osi$e =+ pe $e tin6 all of the economic incenti$es and feed=ack loops fo p ice, and it's also so em=edded in c*lt* e +o* can't eall+ sol$e it 7ith technolo6+# People ha$e t ied# ,e tainl+, the e's enti e mo$ements in co*nt ies like India to fi6ht co *ption, and it's so diffic*lt, that e$en the people 7ho 7ant to fi6ht it and a e $e + m*ch a6ainst it and a e committed to not pa+in6 = i=es - 7ea s +o* do7n, e$ent*all+# No* kno7, +o* can't >*st f*nction in that societ+ 7itho*t s*cc*m=in6# "dam! -So anothe thin6 is, of co* se, the fees# The e's the 1 to 1BJ fee that's applied =+ Safa icom 7hich o7ns the technolo6+ and that ena=led )-PES", and that ena=led )-PES", and =asicall+ is )-PES"# In addition to that, the e's a 1BJ ta2 that's =een p*t on these t ansactions =+ the 8en+an 6o$e nment, and also the 8en+an 6o$e nment o*tinel+ inflates thei c* enc+ =eca*se, if I'm co ect he e, )-PES" is not a c* enc+ onto itself, =*t it's athe a t ansmission mechanism and a kind of 7allet fo the local c* enc+# Is that i6ht: "nd eas! Neah, that's m+ *nde standin6# Stephanie! If I *nde stand 7he e +o*' e 6oin6 7ith that, then, Bitcoin 7o*ld at least p o$ide a technolo6ical sol*tion to the iss*e of inflation#

"dam! 9ell, +eah, the e's that pa t of it, =*t act*all+ I'm lookin6 at it f om a diffe ent pe specti$e# 0n this sho7, 7e spend a lot of time foc*sin6 on 7hat the @S 6o$e nment is 6oin6 to do a=o*t Bitcoin, =*t lookin6 at a sit*ation like 8en+a, doesn't it seem like the 8en+an 6o$e nment is 6oin6 to eall+, eall+, eall+, hate Bitcoin: Beca*se it p o$ides competition, it's $e + diffic*lt fo them to ta2 - a6ain it 6oes =ack to the competition thin6, =eca*se =+ offe in6 an alte nati$e to a c* enc+ that's inflatin6 at a s*=stantial ate, it means people a e mo e likel+ to s7itch to a c* enc+ that's losin6 $al*e to the c* enc+ that's 6ainin6 $al*e and is cheape to *se o$e all# /on't +o* think the e'd =e some a66 ession f om the 8en+an 6o$e nment if a chan6e like this 7e e made: "nd eas! "=sol*tel+, =*t I don't think that chan6e 7o*ld =e $e + eas+# The e's anothe iss*e 7e'$e kind of ski ted, 7hich is )-PES" o s+stems like that co*ld =e implemented th o*6ho*t s*=-saha an "f ica, th o*6ho*t So*thEast "sia# The e's ce tainl+ a need fo them# So 7h+ ha$en't the+ =een: That's an inte estin6 E*estion# 9h+ isn't )-PES" =ein6 *sed mo e = oadl+: 9h+ a en't simila s+stems =ein6 *sed mo e = oadl+ th o*6ho*t S*=-Saha an "f ica and So*thEast "sia: -"nd the ans7e , I think, is athe inst *cti$e he e - it has to do 7ith t7o facto s# 0ne is that Safa icom had a $e + massi$e deplo+ed =ase of *se s and the efo e 7as a=le to int od*ce this sim*ltaneo*sl+ to a $ol*me of *se s that 7e e s*fficient to s*stain a pa allel econom+ f om the 6et-6o# -So +o* ha$e mass adoption at a le$el that c eates, sim*ltaneo*sl+, eno*6h =*+e s and selle s to la*nch a ma ket# It's $e + diffic*lt to do that chicken-and-e66 sol*tion, 7he e +o* sim*ltaneo*sl+ ha$e eno*6h =*+e s and selle s 7ithin the localit+ to make the c* enc+ $ia=le# -"nd that's one of the easons 7h+ )-PES" hasn't taken off in othe co*nt ies, o as simila s+stems ha$en't taken off despite effo ts to do so# -"nd it's also one of the easons 7h+ I think Bitcoin adoption is not that eas+ o 7ill happen that fast in some of these co*nt ies# The e's a lot of p e- eE*isites that 6o into Bitcoin adoption =e+ond >*st he+, it's *sef*l and I can p*t it on m+ cell phone# "dam! It's almost like +o* need mass a7a eness =efo e +o* can e$en app oach the E*estion of adoption, =eca*se if people don't kno7 a=o*t it, then it almost doesn't matte fo the initial *se s =eca*se it's not *sef*l to them, >*st like a lan6*a6e isn't *sef*l if +o*' e the onl+ one that speaks it in +o* co*nt +# "nd eas! The net7o k effect c*ts =oth 7a+s, 7hich is if the net7o k is too small, the e's no $al*e that's added 7hen +o* >oin it, and especiall+ in the case of c* enc+# The $al*e of the c* enc+ is onl+ =ased on the e2pectation that someone else 7ill =e 7illin6 to accept it in a t ansaction# That eE*i es t7o thin6s# It eithe eE*i es a mass adoption, 7he e +o*' e almost 6*a anteed that othe pa ties 7ill accept +o* t ansaction, o it eE*i es +o* to adopt the c* enc+ fo easons othe than t ansactin6# -"nd so 7ith Bitcoin, 7hat 7e sa7 is the fi st th ee +ea s the people 7ho adopted Bitcoin 7e e not eall+ into it fo t ansactions pe se, o fo the $al*e pe se, =*t mo e fo the ideolo6ical easons# -"nd that c eated s*fficient $ol*me and s*fficient ma ket 6 o7th so then it co*ld sta t att actin6 people 7ho a e inte ested in *sin6 it as a c* enc+# It's essentiall+ an ideolo6ical political mo$ement that t* ned into a c* enc+# ,an't eall+ =ootst ap it like that in a de$elopin6 co*nt +, =eca*se the e a e m*ch mo e p a6matic conside ations# 4)*sic Pla+s5 4RL!BI5

Stanisla$! 3ood afte noon# Stanisla$ Shal*no$ - +o* can call me Stas# I'm the ,T0 of 0pen 3a den# " fe7 of the thin6s I'$e done in the past 7as t anspo t p otocol 7o k and SS 7o k at Inte net, too, and the desi6n of a ne7 con6estion cont ol in Bitto ent, 7hich c* entl+ is esponsi=le fo some7he e a=o*t 1 in < =+tes on the Inte net, a=o*t 1FJ ma+=e# "dam! So +o*' e =ack6 o*nd is eall+ all a=o*t decent aliDed s+stems then: Stanisla$! 9ell, +o* co*ld sa+ that, +es# "dam! So ho7 did +o* find +o* self 6oin6 into mesh net7o ks c eated m+ cell phones: Stanisla$! I 7as inte ested in c eatin6 mesh net7o ks =efo e the e 7as the te m mesh net7o k# I 7as inte ested in makin6 =ette 4 o*tin6:5, =*t the e 7as not eall+ +et a technolo6+ that 7o*ld allo7 to connect de$ices in an ad-hoc manne in sa+, to Tina*di=leT# 9hat +o* need a e de$ices a e hete o6eneo*s 7i eless capa=ilities, and sma t phones a e the platfo m that allo7s to do that# "dam! 9hen +o* sa+ hete o6eneo*s 7i eless capa=ilit+, can +o* e2plain that: Stanisla$! 0n a phone, +o* ha$e m*ltiple 7i eless technolo6ies# No* ha$e +o* L3, o R3, +o* ha$e 9iCi, +o* ha$e ma+=e 9iCi /i ect, Bl*etooth, +o* ha$e ma+=e NC,# and all of these thin6s can =e *sed to inte connect de$ices, and +o* can =e *sin6, sim*ltaneo*sl+, m*ltiple net7o ks at the same time# -"nd that's 7hat allo7s to =*ild this additional capa=ilit+, that the phone ma+ =e on R3, =*t if the e is anothe phone nea =+ that's also on it's o7n ca ie 's net7o k, +o* mi6ht connect them locall+ *sin6 9iCi di ect and c eate ne7 capacit+# These a e o* phones, and I am pe haps *sin6 m+ phone less than 1J of the time fo data t ansmission# Same fo +o*# -So 7hen I'm 6ettin6 somethin6 f om the Inte net, I can 6et it faste if I can 6et it f om =oth e2its and mo e elia=l+# "dam! No*' e sa+in6 that e$en tho*6h +o* mi6ht =e connected in one capacit+ 7ith one of those technolo6ies, since each phone has m*ltiple comm*nication means and has the a=ilit+ to *se each one independentl+, +o* can ha$e inte connections that a e completel+ sepa ate f om the *pst eam o do7nst eam to the Inte net in this case# Is that i6ht: Stanisla$! E2actl+, so 7hat 0pen 3a den does - 7e c eate all so ts of 7i eless connections - 7e s*ppo t Bl*etooth, 9iCi di ect - 7e' e pa tic*la l+ conce ned 7ith the specific *nde l+in6 technolo6ies# -So, 7e' e c eatin6 those connections 7ith those de$ices - 7hene$e the+' e nea =+, 7i elessl+, seamlessl+ fo the *se # The *se doesn't need to 7o + a=o*t esta=lishin6 them# The *se doesn't need to open the app# 0nce connected, de$ices 7ill access the Inte net collecti$el+ *sin6 7hate$e Inte net capacit+ the+ to6ethe ha$e# This p od*ces =ette statistical m*ltiple2# This 6i$es e$e +one faste speed, =ette co$e a6e# "dam! That's eall+ inte estin6# (a$e +o* to*ched the o*te space at all, o is it enti el+ a=o*t phones: Stanisla$! 9e le$e a6e e2istin6 inf ast *ct* e and thin6s that al ead+ e2ist and can =e *sed# 9e

add ess the mass ma ket, so 7e 7ant the kind of adoption that s*ccessf*l pee -to-pee applications ha$e# Not >*st add essin6 small a*diences of people 7ho a e 7illin6 to flash a ne7 G0) to thei Links+s, =*t people 7ho can install a mo=ile app, and the e a e a lot mo e people 7ho can install a mo=ile app# 9e c* entl+ s*ppo t "nd oid, 9indo7s, and )ac# The comp*te s also ha$e a=ilit+ to *se m*ltiple net7o ks at once these da+s# 9e ha$e d*al 9iCi adios in man+ comp*te s and additionall+, 7e ha$e Bl*etooth# "dam! Lets take a step =ack fo a second# 0pen 3a den - ho7 did this come a=o*t: No* said +o*'$e =een inte ested in mesh net7o ks =efo e the+ 7e e called mesh net7o ks, and =efo e the technolo6+ 7as the e to do it# 9hat occ* ed to insi6ht the c eation of 0pen 3a den: Stanisla$! )icha and I 6ot to6ethe a=o*t IB1B, and the ena=lin6 technolo6+ fo 0pen 3a den is the sma t phone, the comp*te inside e$e +=od+'s pocket 7ith m*ltiple adio inte faces that makes 0pen 3a den possi=le and inte estin6# Befo e the sma tphone, the densit+ of mo=ile laptops, fo e2ample, 7as not s*fficient to make a diffe ence fo Inte net access, fo othe de$ices# -"nd 7hen +o* a e at home o at the office and +o*' e laptop is on local 9iCi, the need fo Inte net access is less ac*te# The need fo Inte net access is the most ac*te the 7o se +o* Inte net connection is# -"nd 6ene all+, mo=ile sit*ations, t a$el, =ein6 on mo=ile net7o ks is 7he e +o* need fo =ette Inte net access, faste and in mo e places is the most $isi=le# "dam! -So +o* sta ted in IB1B# 9hat has the >o* ne+ =een, a e +o* o*t in the 7ild 7ith this i6ht no7: Stanisla$! 9hen 7e sta ted, 7e 7anted to fi st test the 7ate s as a minimal $ia=le p od*ct# 9hat 7e did 7as eleased an app that simpl+ p o$ided tethe in6 - >*st let +o* t* n +o* phone into a mo=ile hotspot# 9e 7anted to see 7hat 7o*ld =e the *ptake# 9e didn't do an+thin6 to p omote this app, and it eE*i ed +o* to oot +o* and oid phone so it 7as add essed to a small a*dience of people capa=le of ootin6 thei phone, and the e 7as no ma ketin6# B+ the time 7e had the half-million, 7e kne7 that 7e 7e e onto somethin6# 9e tho*6ht that people 7ant this, so 7e sta ted f*ll-time 7o k 7ith 3 e6 (aDel and )icha Benoliel on makin6 this c* ent app# The eal 0pen 3a den mesh net7o kin app# 9e la*nched at Tech, *nch /is *pt in Ne7 No k in IB1I# 4In5 the fi st th ee 7eeks, 7e 6ot a h*nd ed-tho*sand do7nloads# B+ no7, the t7o apps to6ethe ha$e mo e than t7o and a half million do7nloads# 9e like to elease o* soft7a e ea l+ so that 7e can see ho7 it =eha$es in the 7ild# In 6ene al, de$elopment fo and oid is made diffic*lt =+ the di$e sit+ of the and oid ecos+stem# 0* soft7a e *ns on de$ices that 7e'$e ne$e seen and ne$e 7ill, so it's impo tant to ha$e a *se =ase to e$en de$elop this soft7a e# "dam! No*'$e 6ot t7o and a half million do7nloads, 7hat does the *se look like, I mean, is this 7o kin6, is this =ein6 *sed, a e the e an+ 6eo6 aphies specificall+ 7he e it's *sed o is it mo e of like an ad-hoc as needed people 7ill 6et it, and then the+'ll th o7 *p the tempo a + net 7he e$e the+ a e# 0 is it somethin6 people 7alk a o*nd 7ith on thei phones and a e >*st *sin6 in da+ to da+ e$ents: " e 7e to that point: Stanisla$! 4The5 pa tic*la sit*ation 7he e 0pen 3a den toda+ makes p o=a=l+ the =i66est diffe ence is ta=lets - pa tic*la l+ M' ta=lets# People on Ne2*s M o a Sams*n6 3ala2+ Ta= 7itho*t a L3 connection, and a hi6hl+ po ta=le ta=let a e in a st an6e position# No* ha$e this de$ice, it

can 6o in +o* coat pocket, it can 6o if +o* ca + a p* se, it's $e + po ta=le, =*t it's p acticall+ *seless 7itho*t an Inte net connection, and it doesn't ha$e a L3 modem# -"nd e$en if it did, it 7o*ld cost O1IB p o=a=l+ e2t a and +o*'d need to pa+ OIB pe month to =e a=le to *se the Inte net f om it# 9hat 0pen 3a den does is =asicall+ 6i$e +o* the =enefit of ha$in6 a L3 connection on +o* ta=let fo f ee# Beca*se if +o* ha$e an "nd oid ta=let, chances a e +o* also ha$e an and oid phone, and +o* p o=a=l+ ca + it 7ith +o* at least as m*ch as +o* ca + +o* ta=let# "dam! The and oid phone p o$ides the connecti$it+ to the ta=let, and +o* onl+ need to ca + one Inte net-connected de$ice to =enefit f om =oth# Stanisla$! ,o ect# "dam! So, e$en tho*6h this is a mesh net7o k =*ildin6 tool, 7hat it's =ein6 *sed fo no7 is to =*ild little pe sonal - it's not e$en eall+ mesh - it's mo e like a 7i eless tethe o somethin6# Stanisla$! The e2pe ience is fa =ette than *sin6 7i eless tethe in6# The e2pe ience of *sin6 7i eless tethe in6 eE*i es +o* to take o*t +o* phone, 6o into settin6s, tap mo e, 6o into tethe in6, t* n it on, 6o to +o* ta=let no7, connect to the i6ht net7o k, and 7hen +o*' e done, emem=e to t* n off the tethe in6 hotspot on +o* phone othe 7ise +o* =atte + 7ill =e dead in t7o ho* s# 9ith 0pen 3a den, +o* *se the Inte net like +o* *s*all+ do# No* take +o* ta=let and +o* *se it fo 7hate$e it 7as +o* 7e e 6oin6 to *se it, instead of fiddlin6 7ith settin6s on +o* phone# "dam! /oes it ha$e an impact on =atte + life in the same 7a+ a 7i eless tethe 7o*ld: Stanisla$! Lo7e than 7i eless tethe in6# "dam! The name 0pen 3a den - +o* 6*+s a e not an open so* ce soft7a e p o>ect a e +o*: Stanisla$! 0* main app is c* entl+ not open so* ce, =*t I see 7he e +o* -"dam! 9ell, +eah it 7as conf*sin6 to me 7hen I fi st sta ted talkin6 to Pai6e a=o*t 0pen 3a den, I ass*med it 7as open so* ce# /o +o* ha$e intentions to make it open so* ce, o is this aimed to =e a p op ieta + platfo m: Stanisla$! 3 e6 and I ha$e c eated open so* ce soft7a e c* entl+ *sed =+ a E*a te -=illion people in the fo m of the BitTo ent t anspo t li= a +# 9e' e inte ested in makin6 open so* ce soft7a e 7idel+ a$aila=le and s*ccessf*l# 9e'$e also c eated open p otocols, se$e al =et7een the t7o of *s, =+ no7 standa diDed# The application 0pen 3a den is not open so* ce# It's open in the sense of an+one =ein6 a=le to >oin the net7o k - it's a 6a den an+=od+ can 7alk into# (opef*ll+, open 7indo7s don't conf*se people simila l+, and e2pect them to =e a=le to 6et the so* ce fo the 7indo7# -B*t 7e a e inte ested in open so* ce in 6ene al and ho7 7e can make 0pen 3a den mo e s*ccessf*l *sin6 it# 9e' e not +et p epa ed to disc*ss an+thin6 a=o*t o* f*t* e mo$es 7ith open so* ce and 0pen 3a den#

"dam! Cai eno*6h# 0n the sho7, 7e ha$e a foc*s on Bitcoin and , +ptoc* encies - not >*st Bitcoin =*t it's c +ptoc* encies and kind of the thin6s the+ ena=le - and one of the thin6s 7e'$e =een talkin6 a=o*t on and off 7ith e6a ds to mesh net7o ks o To nodes, o - the e's a $a iet+ of sit*ations - in +o* ta=let phone scena io, that's one pe son 7ho's 6ainin6 =enefit f om *tiliDin6 one se $ice, that 7o*ld no mall+ =e a$aila=le on one de$ice, on t7o de$ices# I see the $al*e of it the e, =*t 7ith c +ptoc* encies and a*tomated cont acts, =asicall+, +o* can set it *p so that indi$id*al nodes that p o$ide an Inte net connection, o se $ice 7ithin one of these mesh net7o ks a e compensated on a, as *sed =asis# -"nd I'm 7onde in6 ha$e +o* looked into c +ptoc* encies and Bitcoin into doin6 thin6s like this, o is it o*tside the scope of +o* p o>ect: Stanisla$! 9e a e inte ested in e2plo in6 7a+s to limit f ee- idin6 on the s+stem# The s+stem is at its most efficient 7hen it doesn't den+ people its se $ice# It c eates the ma2im*m amo*nt of $al*e - that's 6ene all+ 6ood, that's 6ene all+ ho7 thin6s sho*ld =e# If +o* look at the desi6n of Bitto ent, pa tl+ it 7as s*ccessf*l =eca*se +o* can do7nload e$en =efo e +o*'$e *ploaded# If the e 7e e mo e stops to *sin6 the s+stem then fe7e people 7o*ld =enefit f om it# The p o=lem, to the e2tent that it e2ists he e, is p e$entin6 people 7ho pe pet*all+ f ee- ide f om doin6 so, and fo no7 ,the main mechanism =+ ho7 that is accomplished is =+ need of ph+sical p o2imit+# If +o* install 0pen 3a den to =e a=le to 6et connecti$it+ f om othe s, +o* also cont i=*te =+ nat* e of the soft7a e if +o*' e Inte net connected at all, so the e's a cont act of m*t*al help =+ $i t*e of installin6 0pen 3a den# 9e'$e also tho*6ht a=o*t makin6 c edit ecos+stem# It mi6ht con$e t to eal c* enc+ o mi6ht not, and 7hethe eal c* enc+ is a c +ptoc* enc+ o anothe fo m of dist i=*ti$e c* enc+ o dolla s is not eall+ the inte estin6 pa t# ,on$e sion to eal c* enc+ is, ho7e$e , diffe ent f om simpl+ 4=+te acco*ntin6:5, and 4=+te acco*ntin6:5 can 7ell =e s*fficient, so 7e' e not +et s* e ho7 7e'd app oach this p o=lem in the f*t* e# -B*t fo no7, in p actice, 7e don't ha$e that p o=lem# If +o* install 0pen 3a den toda+, no=od+ 7ill follo7 +o* a o*nd t +in6 to *se +o* Inte net constantl+# "dam! So if someone 7ants to 6et in$ol$ed 7ith 0pen 3a den o do7nload the application, do +o* ha$e a 7e=site: Stanisla$! Nes, of co* se# 9e a e a$aila=le f om http!??0pen 3a den#com? and the app is also a$aila=le in the 3oo6le Pla+ sto e 7he e it's called 0pen 3a den, >*st like +o*'d e2pect# "dam! /o +o* ha$e an+ intentions to ollin6 o*t to i0S de$ices o 7ill this =e a st ictl+-"nd oid p o>ect Stanisla$! 9e don't ha$e c* ent plans that 7e can disclose a=o*t i0S# 0=$io*sl+, 7e' e inte ested in all platfo ms, not >*st and oid, and 7e al ead+ ha$e s*ppo t fo t7o desktop ope atin6 s+stems, =*t 7e ha$e to foc*s o* effo ts some7he e, and that's 7he e 7e'$e chosen to foc*s fo no7# "dam! Stas, thank +o* fo +o* time# Stanisla$! Thank +o*# 4)*sic ,*es5

"/! "dam! E$e +one kno7s that offline sto a6e is the onl+ safe 7a+ to sto e +o* Bitcoins# No7 the e's an eas+, con$enient and sec* e 7a+ to make =itcoin 7allets fo safe offline sto a6e# 9ith the safe pape 7allet kit, +o* 6et e$e +thin6 +o* need to p int Bitcoin 7allets *sin6 +o* o7n P,# Sto e them in a safe deposit =o2, +o* home safe, e$en +o* sock d a7e - an+thin6's mo e sec* e than keepin6 them online# 3et +o* kit no7 at safepape 7allet#com# Stephanie! No*' e listenin6 to Let's Talk Bitcoin, the p emie a*diocast p o$idin6 ne7s and insi6hts that co$e the apidl+ e$ol$in6 7o ld of di6ital mone+# 0* t7ice-7eekl+ sho7s incl*de anal+sis of late = eakin6 ne7s, *pdates on ke+ technical, =*siness and e6*lato + iss*es and indepth inte $ie7s 7ith the ke+ people d i$in6 the ne7 di6ital econom+# Let's Talk Bitcoin offe s sponso s an att acti$e 7a+ to each a ta 6eted and sa$$+ a*dience# Co mo e info mation, email sponso sAletstalk=itcoin#com "dam! -So to finish *p, 7e et* n to The 3enesis Block a ticle# Sho*ld 7idescale adoption act*all+ occ* 7ithin 8en+a, the effects co*ld =e t emendo*s ' not >*st fo 8en+ans, =*t fo the =itcoin ma ket as 7ell# In IB11, 8en+a;s 3/P clim=ed o$e OLLB 7ith mo=ile pa+ments comp isin6 some O1BB of that fi6* e# Bitcoin;s c* ent t ansaction $ol*me is o*6hl+ OIB) pe da+, o >*st o$e OMB pe +ea # If =itcoin 7e e to eplace 8en+a;s mo=ile t ansactions, BT, ma ket liE*idit+ 7o*ld mo e than do*=le# To date, 8en+a;s =itcoin adoption has =een m*ted, 7ith app o2imatel+ 1,LBB do7nloads in a co*nt + 7ith R1 million people total, =*t 7ith all the pieces set ali6n o$e the ne2t fe7 +ea s, it is onl+ a matte of time =efo e Bitcoin and 8en+a find one anothe # So, do 7e think this is ine$ita=le: P ett+ clea l+ the e a e ad$anta6es he e, the e a e h* dles he e### the concl*sion he e is this is 6onna happen, 7hat do +o* think a=o*t that: "nd eas! I do*=t it $e + m*ch# 9hile 8en+a is $e + p omisin6, I'$e often e2p essed the fact that the e a e m*ltiple p econditions fo =* stl+ adoption of =itcoin - +o* need technolo6+, elect icit+, +o* need *tilit+ of the c* enc+ o$e local c* enc+, and +o* also ha$e to not ha$e fea of =ein6 a ested o shot fo holdin6 Bitcoin# -"nd all of those thin6s eall+ =ecome a =i6 eE*ation, 7he e at some point, it eaches a tippin6 point and +o* ha$e mass adoption# I think it's fa mo e likel+ that +o* mi6ht see localities 7ithin places like ,+p *s and " 6entina ha$in6 =* stl+ adoption, 7he e the technolo6+ inf ast *ct* e is mo e de$eloped, the e's mo e consistent elect icit+ and it's mo e compati=le 7ith people's adoption of technolo6+ in 6ene al# -So, I don't see 8en+a =ein6 the fi st place to do it despite )-PES"# The model, I think, is i6ht# Stephanie! /id an+one see )-PES" comin6 o*t in 8en+a: That so*nds like somethin6 that so t of came o*t of the =l*e pe haps, so ma+=e it co*ld happen in 8en+a, I'm not s* e# I think it's inte estin6 to think a=o*t 7hat 7o*ld happen if Bitcoin's ma ket liE*idit+ do*=led# I mean, that's p ett+ h*6e and it eall+ p*ts it in pe specti$e >*st ho7 man+ people a e t ansactin6 and t adin6 =itcoins, o co*ld =e, potentiall+, in 8en+a, e$e + da+# I think that 7o*ld inc ease the $al*e of Bitcoin E*ite a =it, pe haps en ich people in the de$elopin6 7o ld if the+ had 6otten them ea l+ eno*6h "nd eas! I think that's a 6 eat s*66estion, =*t the act*al adoption of )-PES" 7as an+thin6 =*t o 6anic o 6 ass oots# It 7as a planned adoption f om the ca ie that al ead+ had MFJ of the ma ket of mo=ile telephon+ of the co*nt +# The+ 7e e a=le to essentiall+ t* n on a MFJ ma ket

sha e into a c* enc+ in one mo$e# I think that 7o*ld =e a 6 eat model fo adoption fo othe places, o e$en 8en+a, if some co po ation al ead+ has an esta=lished *se =ase c eates a Bitcoin-de i$ed c* enc+ o =itcoin itself as eithe a e7a ds ca d, o an in app c* enc+, o an insto e c* enc+, o a lo+alt+ ca d, o somethin6 like that# Then, f om that =asis, =ootst aps it as a 6ene al t ansactional c* enc+# I think that's a 6ood chance of happenin6# I eall+ don't see ho7 that kind of planned int od*ction compa es to the 6 ass oots of o 6anic adoption 7e'$e seen of Bitcoin# "dam! The n*m=e I keep lookin6 at is this KLJ of 8en+an ho*seholds o7nin6 mo=ile phones# I think that +o*' e i6ht a=o*t it =ein6 a planned oll-o*t, and a=o*t the people 7ho ha$e the a=ilit+ to implement and oll o*t somethin6 simila in Bitcoin ha$e almost no incenti$es to do it, and I think that's kind of the co e p o=lem 7e' e 6oin6 to come to in most of these places# "n+7he e the e's a monopol+ on technolo6+ like the e is he e, 7he e a $ast ma>o it+ of people a e on this same Safa icom net7o k, then that =asicall+ means that *ntil the e's an act*al eason to chan6e that it inc eases the p ofita=ilit+ o offe s some ad$anta6e to the compan+ athe than the *se s it's $e + *nlikel+ it'll act*all+ happen# "nd eas! That's the othe =i6 ad$anta6e fo Safa icom is the+ can cha 6e a t ansactional fee, so 7h+ 7o*ld the+ 6o to Bitcoin 7hich 7o*ld essentiall+ emo$e thei a=ilit+ to tap into that flo7 of mone+: Stephanie! The e is potentiall+ a p ofit incenti$e fo some=od+ if the+ can enco* a6e people to adopt this technolo6+, that co*ld eall+ 7o k o*t fo them, as 7ell# Not onl+ 7o*ld it p o$ide an alte nati$e to )-PES" 7hich so*nds kind of monopolistic act*all+# B*t it 7o*ld also inc ease the ma ket liE*idit+ and the efo e I think the $al*e of Bitcoin, so Bitcoine s ha$e an incenti$e to help this happen 7hethe it's 6oin6 to "f ica and doin6 some acti$ismn o t +in6 to 6et people inte ested in it, o make some kind of app that can someho7 *n on olde phones# I'm not e2actl+ s* e, =*t ma+=e someone 7ill take *p the mantle on that# "dam! 9ell the e a e apps that *n on olde phones# The e a e a co*ple of se $ices o*t the e# 0ne of them, I =elie$e, is Phone,oin, and the e ha$e =een a fe7 mo e that ha$e come o*t, that =asicall+ le$e a6e S)S messa6in6, te2t messa6in6# Stephanie! ,oinap*lt does that, too - can send ,oin =+ S)S# "dam! Neah, e2actl+, so I think +o*' e i6ht if 7e li$ed in a pe fect 7o ld, =*t =eca*se 7e li$e in a 7o ld, I mean ' clea l+, Safa icom doesn't ha$e this monopol+ the e on these technolo6ies =eca*se the 6o$e nment hates them, i6ht: The+ ha$e it =eca*se the+'$e pa tne ed 7ith the 6o$e nment and the+'$e ena=led them to essentiall+ ta2 these t ansactions in a 7a+# Stephanie! B i=es### "dam! It doesn't eall+ matte 7hat +o* call it# The point is, an+time +o* 6o into a sit*ation 7he e the e's an ent enched po7e st *ct* e like, fo e2ample, monopolies, =e the 6o$e nment, =e the technolo6+, +o* sa+, he+, 7hat +o*' e doin6 is 6 eat, =*t 7o*ldn't it =e =ette fo +o* c*stome s if +o* cha 6ed them less =+ *sin6 this mo e efficient technolo6+: I =et +o*'d 6et

ma>o p*sh-=ack# In some t+pes of c*lt* es, the e ma+ =e $iolent epe c*ssions fo +o*# -So, it's >*st somethin6 to keep in mind, that chan6e is 6 eat if it's chan6e that =enefits +o* =*t a lot of times if it's =enefitin6 +o* it's at the e2pense of someone else that's hi6he *p in the food chain and that's not somethin6 that's too pop*la # -So the e's hope# 4)*sic Pla+s5 "dam! Thanks fo t*nin6 into episode 18 of Let's Talk Bitcoin, 7hethe +o* liked, lo$ed, o hated the sho7, 7e 7ant to kno7 7hat +o* think# Please send all listene mail to mailAletstalk=itcoin#com# ,ontent fo this episode 7as p o$ided =+ Stephanie )* ph+, "nd eas )# "ntonopo*los, Stanisla$ Shal*no$, and .oseph /a$id# )*sic fo this episode 7as p o$ided m+ .a ed G*=ins, fo links to his 7o k $isit letstalk=itcoin#com?m*sic if +o*' e an open so* ce m*sician and think +o* 7o k 7o*ld fit in 7ell 7ith the sho7, please email adamAletstalk=itcoin#com if +o* like 7hat 7e' e doin6 and 7ant to s*ppo t *s 7ith =itcoin o litecoin donations please $isit letstalk=itcoin#com fo episode specific add esses# If +o* ha$e E*estions +o*'d like ans7e ed on ai , call *s at 1-8FF-9eTalkBitcoin# B+ the 7a+, if +o*' e still listenin6, +o* sho*ld kno7 that Let's Talk Bitcoin is 6 o7in6 *p, and I'm E*ietl+ lookin6 fo potential pa tne s 7ho a e on the same pa6e 7ith a=o*t t *th and media and ed*cation# If +o* like 7hat 7e' e doin6, o lookin6 fo a p o>ect, and ha$e skills on the technical o =*siness side of thin6s, +o* ma+ contact me at adamAletstalk=itcoin#com Sta+ t*ned#