Transcription of Episode 38 Building the Future w/ Josh Rossi

Participants: Adam B. Levine (ABL) Host Andreas M. Antonopoulos (AA) Co-host Stephanie Murph (SM) Co-host Moe Levin (ML) - Bitcoin !urope" host o# !uropean Bitcoin Convention$ appears in #irst se%ment startin% at &osh 'ossi (&') - #ounder o# Satoshi S(uare$ creator and lead developer o# Pro)ect Button*ood" appears in #inal se%ment startin% at

Adam B. Levine: Hi$ and *elcome to Let+s ,al- Bitcoin$ a t*ice-*ee-l sho* a.out the ideas$ people$ and pro)ects .uildin% the ne* di%ital econom and the #uture o# mone . M name is Adam B. Levine$ and toda $ *e+ve %ot a h .rid episode. &osh 'ossi is an interestin% %u $ #ounder o# the Satoshi S(uare movement. / cau%ht up *ith him the da a#ter the /nside Bitcoins event to tal- a.out communit $ currenc $ and so#t*are that *ill connect ever one to the po*er o# %lo.al local. But #irst *e chec- in *ith Moe Levin o# the convention.eu$ a multida Bitcoin con#erence ta-in% place in Amsterdam. ,hen /0m )oined . Stephanie and Andreas to discuss di##erentiatin% .et*een %ood coins$ .ad coins and politicall undesira.le coins. /s it nann ism1 /s it %ood #aith1 Could *hat+s even .een proposed even solve the pro.lem1 2e tal- a.out it. 3isit us at at letstal-.itcoin.com #or our dail %uest .lo%$ sho* archive$ and o# course$ tippin% options. !n)o the sho*. 2ith more and more Bitcoin con#erences poppin% up$ toda *e+re )oined . Moe Levin. Moe is puttin% on the !uropean Bitcoin Convention in Amsterdam later in Septem.er. Moe Levin: ,he con#erence is .asicall one to increase a*areness o# di%ital currenc technolo%ies$ so *hat+ve *e+ve done is *e0ve ta-en the thin%s people love a.out con#erences and conventions$ and *e0ve mer%ed them into one seamless convention. 2e have *ell--no*n spea-ers that people *ant to hear$ .usinessmen and entrepreneurs that people *ant to connect *ith$ and 4*e5 are or%ani6in% a ,!7 event around the Bitcoin communit . ABL: So$ ho* man da s is our event1 ML: /t0s a three-da lon% event #rom the 89th to the 8:th o# Septem.er.

ABL: And so$ *ho is -e notin% it1 2hat are some o# the thin%s people *ould see i# the attend1 ML: 2e+ve %ot ;< spea-ers$ more and more comin% on ever da . Some -e notes are %oin% to .e . Charlie Shrem #rom the Bitcoin =oundation o# Bitinstant. 2e have some economists. 2e+ve invited the 7utch Central Ban-. ,he !uropean Central Ban- *ill .e spea-in%. >ou mi%ht have heard in the last couple *ee-s 4that5 ?erman has accepted Bitcoin as a le%al currenc and 4it5 *ill .e ta@ed. ,he people and the la* ers and the la* #irms involved in that are %oin% to come and tal- on a panel a.out that. ABL: So$ it sounds li-e ou have a diverse #ocus *ith this con#erence. /s it %oin% to .e multiple trac-s #or the tal-s or is it all )ust one sta%e1 ML: 2e+re loo-in% at a three da $ diverse spea-er set. So$ the #irst da *e are %oin% to do ne* .usiness$ second da $ re%ulation and securit $ and the third da $ startup communities and entrepreneurs *ithin the net*or-. ABL: 7urin% our pre-intervie*$ ou mentioned to me that ou *ere tr in% to ta-e all the .ene#its o# a con#erence and all the .ene#its o# a convention$ cut out the .orin% stu##$ and tr to have this all-%ood-stu## event. So$ *hat is the .orin% stu## that ou0re not doin% at this event1 ML: 'i%ht$ Adam$ /0m sure ou0ve .een to con#erences$ and /0m sure ou0ve .een .ored. 2e+re not %ivin% spea-ers an hour to tal- a.out the mathematics .ehind Bitcoin. 2e+re %ivin% interestin% spea-ers an *here #rom < to A: minutes to hammer home the ideas *hich are important and relevant to the audience and the Bitcoin communit at lar%e. 'eall $ educatin% the people that are in the Bitcoin communit $ such as the !uropean Central Ban- and the polic advisors$ as *ell as people *ho have .een involved in Bitcoin since it *as #ounded. ABL: Sounds li-e a %ood time. So$ *hat are the dates o# the event1 ML: ,he dates are 89th o# Septem.er to the 8:th o# Septem.er. ABL: And do ou have a *e.site #or our event1 ML: ,hecon#erence.eu ABL: ,hecon#erence.eu ML: Alternativel $ *e are happ to announce *e+re %oin% to .e livestreamin% the *hole thin% online. So$ 4i#5 ou can0t ma-e it$ or ou *ant to hit up one da $ a couple hours$ AB minutes$ *hatever ou *ant to hear$ ou+ll .e a.le to access that online. ABL: ,hat0s a*esomeC /s that %oin% to .e a #ree service1 ML: Sure. ABL: ?reat.

ML: 2e+re not loo-in% to scre* people #or mone on this event. 2e+re loo-in% to ma-e a %reat event that+s success#ul to man people in di##erent environments to )ust %et animated *ith the Bitcoin communit . ABL: So$ on that note$ *hen it comes to these con#erences$ *e reall see prices all over the place. 2here does the !uropean Bitcoin convention #it into that scale1 ML: =or man pa ment con#erences$ and trul man con#erences$ li-e ou said$ ou0re %oin% to see prices #rom <B euro to A<BB euro. 2e are A<B euro - lean .ud%et. / thin- that0s #air$ and #or vendors$ it0s %oin% to .e D<B euro. ABL: Ho* man people are ou anticipatin% are %oin% to attend our event1 ML: /0m anticipatin% a #ull house. /t can hold E<B in the main hall$ a.out 8BB out the .ar. So$ let+s sa <BB out the .ar. ABL: Compared to some o# the other events *e are tal-in% a.out$ this is actuall a #airl intimate settin%$ even thou%h it0s a E da event. ML: 2e *ant to %et people to net*or- and create lastin% connections at this con#erence. ABL: Moe Levin #rom the !uropean Bitcoin Convention. ,han- ou ver much #or )oinin% us toda on Let0s ,al- Bitcoin. ML: Fo pro.lem. ,han-s #or havin% me. Andreas M. Antonopoulos: ?avin Andreson is the chie# scientist o# the Bitcoin =oundation$ and also the lead developer #or Bitcoin. He *rites$ in Let0s ,alBitcoin0s tal- #orum on reddit$ Gshould Bitcoin users .e #ree to run coin trac-in% so#t*are that tells them *hether or not the are receivin% dirt .itcoins1H Andreson ar%ues that runnin% such so#t*are puts us on a slipper slope that *ill inevita.l lead to mandator #ilters created and maintained . our %overnments. He also said that the pattern in the past is that people are *illin% to %ive up a little li.ert #or convenience or sa#et $ that most people *on0t consider the lon% term ris-s. /s that reasona.le$ or is it )ust another #orm o# nann ism1 /t sounds to me a lot li-e the H*e -no* *hats .est #or ouH ar%uement used to )usti# all sorts o# a*#ul policies. /0ll pla devil+s advocate a little .it: ma .e the slipper slope ar%ument is *ron%. Ma .e dirt coin trac-in% #rom competin% non-%overnmental or%ani6ations *ould .e a %ood thin% #or the *orld. Ma .e supportin% a #ree mar-et o# or%ani6ations per#ormin% those services *ill ma-e it less li-el that %overnments decide the must step in and mandate a solution that the create. So$ coin trac-in%$ is it nann ism to sa *e shouldn+t do it1 /s it nann ism to do it1 2hat do ou %u s thin-1 ABL: / thin- that the li(uidit ma-es this the hardest (uestion to ans*er possi.le. / mean$ seriousl $ this is the thin% - .ecause ori%inall $ *hen *e tal-ed a.out this idea o# tainted coins - that0s *hat *e+re tal-in% a.out here$ a *a to di##erentiate .et*een coins that have .een 0.ad$0 ho*ever ou *ant to de#ine 0.ad$0 as

opposed to coins that are normal - that are not tainted. /# ou can tell a tainted coin #rom a non-tainted coin then ou can sa GIJ$ *ell$ this one is not *orth it to me$ .ecause it0s tainted$ or / *on0t accept it at all.H So the pro.lem *ith this$ o# course$ that0s .een pointed out to me . a num.er o# listeners$ is that: ho* can ou tell that *hen it %ets reported$ it is still o*ned . the person *ho actuall did the stealin%1 /# it0s alread .een sold . the person *ho did the stealin%$ then is it actuall a %ood thin% to .e a.le to trac- it$ or is it )ust con#usin% the issue1 Because i# / steal somethin% #rom ou$ .ut then / immediatel sell it to Stephanie$ and Stephanie is holdin% it at the time that it %ets mar-ed as tainted$ she didn+t actuall do an thin% *ron%. She .ou%ht it #rom me - she thou%ht it *as a normal Bitcoin and$ at that point$ ou hadn+t reported it stolen et. ?iven ho* pseudon mous Bitcoin is$ can a s stem li-e that even #unction1 AA: / thin- it0s pro.a.l important to de#ine *hat *e mean . 0tainted0$ .ecause that0s the .ac-%round to this conversation. !ver coin that0s created in Bitcoin has an ori%in" it has a .loc- in *hich it *as mined$ the .loc- in *hich it *as created$ and #rom there it %ets %iven or loc-ed *ith the -e o# the miner *ho created that .loc-$ and that miner usuall spends it #airl (uic-l - and so it enters the circulation o# the Bitcoin econom . So$ that miner sells it to someone and then the sell it to someone else$ etc$ etc. >ou can ta-e an transaction and ou can trace it .ac-*ards i# ou li-e$ all the *a .ac- to the ori%inal .loc- #rom *hich part o# those Bitcoins *ere mined. So$ ever thin% is trac-a.le. ,he idea o# tainted coins to .uild a s stem *here. i# coin is stolen$ li-e in some o# the .i% heists *e+ve seen$ then the speci#ic transactions *here that coin *as stolen are mar-ed and then su.se(uent transactions #rom there are #iltered$ not honoured$ mar-ed as suspicious$ *hatever. Presuma.l $ in the scenario ou descri.ed$ Adam$ Stephanie *ould have some -ind o# dut $ or .urden$ or responsi.ilit $ to chec- the list the list o# tainted coins .e#ore .u in% an coins$ or she *ould e@pect her so#t*are client to do so. /s that the idea1 AL: 2e+re tal-in% a.out a normal user here$ someone *ho starts up Bitcoin once ever couple o# da s or the -eep it on all o# the time .ut isn+t necessaril constantl starin% at it. /# / someho* mana%ed to compromise that account and %et the .itcoins out o# it$ there is no dela .et*een *hen / can sell them on an e@chan%e$ and there are lots o# e@chan%es *here / can sell them on .e#ore ou have reported them stolen. So$ that0s the (uestion: i# a coin has .een stolen$ is it #air to punish a person *ho received it #urther do*n the chain that didn+t actuall do the stealin% themselves1 Because there is not reall a *a to prevent that and even i# ou did$ even i# ou said$ HIJ$ #ive minutes a#ter an coin have .een stolen$ *e someho* ma%icall -no* a.out it and can rel on that ABBKH - still$ *hat0s to stop$ in that < minute *indo*$ me #rom )ust sellin% all o# the coins and movin% on1 Because then$ / no lon%er .ear an o# the ris- as the person *ho actuall committed the crime$ and et /+ve alread collected m re*ard #or it and someone else *ill .e punished$ potentiall $ .ut that doesn+t matter to me .ecause /+m a criminal. AA: And then ta-e that #ive minutes$ and reduce it to the minimum amount o# time #or propa%ation across the Bitcoin net*or-. !ssentiall $ *hat ou+re sa in% is

that i# / sell the .itcoin .e#ore the Lthis .itcoin is stolen+ messa%e propa%ates out that *indo* is the perilous *indo* - ou mi%ht$ in #act$ have to en#orce a *ait period$ *hich *ould pro.a.l .e mar-et-driven$ *here. - .ecause this s stem is in place - ou *ould have to hold on to an .itcoin #or a period o# time to (uarantine it$ to ma-e sure that it isn+t stolen .e#ore ou sell it. / don+t -no*$ / see a lot o# practical pro.lems *ith implementin% such a taint$ .ut m main concern is this: i# ou implement #ilters in the so#t*are that allo* ar.itrar coins to .e #iltered and mar-ed as unsuita.le #or spendin%$ / thin- *hat *ill end up happenin% is *hen ou have such a mechanism$ that mechanism *ill .e the .asis #or la* that *ill #orce people to .lac-list coins. So$ i# ou have that capa.ilit $ then ou+re %oin% to %et the e(uivalent o# *hat ou see on the /nternet *ith 7MCA ta-e do*n re(uests$ *here ou *ill .e o.li%ed - i# ou receive notice #rom the %overnment that coins are tainted - to report$ .loc-$ #ilter$ *hatever. /+m not sa in% ever one *ill do that" /+m )ust sa in% that i# ou put the capa.ilit in the so#t*are$ doesn+t that create the in#rastructure #or someone to appl a la* to ma-e it mandator 1 / don+t -no* i# it0s nann ism to *orr a.out that - /+m not sa in% *e should do this .ecause it+s not %ood$ or that / -no* .etter - /+m )ust e@pressin% a concern$ and / ma .e a.solutel *ron% a.out this ma .e #ilterin% is per#ectl #ine. /+m )ust sa in% that that -ind o# in#rastructure can .e e@ploited . %overnments. Stephanie Murph : ,here is al*a s the potential #or a technolo% li-e this to .e misused. /nnocent people are %oin% to %et cau%ht up in it. /# it+s meant to stop le%itimate #raud and the#t$ it is %oin% to catch some innocent people in the s stem$ and / don+t thin- there is an thin% *ron% *ith pointin% that out. Andreas$ ou didn+t sa that this should .e a #eature o# Bitcoin and no.od should .e a.le to opt out o# it. >ou )ust said Ghe $ these are some concerns / have$ and / thinpeople should .e a*are o# this .e#ore the decide *holeheartedl to em.race a technolo% li-e this.H / de#initel don+t thin- it could .e considered nann ism$ unless ou are sa in% that this should .e a #eature and no.od should .e allo*ed to opt out. AA: /+m sa in% .e*are o# implementin% #eatures that can .e turned a%ainst the net*or- itsel# in the #uture. Be*are o# implementin% #eatures that create points o# control. /+m not sa in% Hdon+t implement them$H and /+m not sa in% that / - or an one else - has a ri%ht or an .asis to sa other*ise. ,his is a consensus net*or-" i# people reall *ant a #ilterin% #eature$ this *ill happen. 2hat /+m sa in% is this: / .elieve stron%l in Bitcoin neutralit . / thin- its one o# the most po*er#ul elements o# this net*or-$ or #eatures o# Bitcoin" the #act that no matter *ho the sender$ recipient$ or content o# a transaction$ the transaction is honoured . the net*or- as lon% as it+s valid and contains a valid proo#-o#-*or-. ,hat0s a hu%e departure #rom e@istin% pa ment s stems. /# ou put in place capa.ilities to start #ilterin% speci#ic coins$ speci#ic t pes o# transactions$ or speci#ic senders and recipients$ that threatens net neutralit in a *a that %overnments can .uild re%ulations on top o# that in#rastructure that severl restricts .oth sources and destinations o# pa ments. / love Bitcoin .ecause it allo*s me to contri.ute to thin%s that perhaps ma not .e popular$ li-e$ sa $ 2i-ilea-s. / thin- that0s a ver important #reedom o# speech capa.ilit . Fo*$ *ho

sa s that a %overnment doesn+t pass a la* that i# ou send an mone to 2i-ilea-s$ that coin0s tainted1 ABL: 2ell$ ri%ht no* there0s not a possi.ilit $ .ut that0s e@actl ri%ht" this is$ o# course$ the concern that immediatel comes up *hen ou start tal-in% a.out this stu## - once a capa.ilit is there$ it can .e used #or an thin%$ and that could .e the intended purpose$ .ut i# the in#rastructure e@ists$ then it can also .e used #or unintended purposes$ li-e *hat ou0re tal-in% a.out there$ *hich is .loc-in% thin%s #or political reasons. AA: !ver .od else in the *orld *ould .e a.le to receive and spend 2i-ilea-s coins$ .ut MS citi6ens *ould .e prohi.ited .ecause it *ould .e considered a material support o# %od--no*s-*hat. ,hat0s reall *hat /0m *orried that i# ou implement censorship capa.ilities$ or capa.ilities that can .e used #or censorship$ li-e #unctions$ the *ill .e. Similar ar%uments *ith service providers" i# ou don0t *ant people to do surveillance$ don0t store lo%s. /# ou don0t have the lo%s$ ou can0t respond to a su.poena. / thin- the same thin% applies to Bitcoin" i# ou don0t *ant people appl in% censorship$ don0t .uild censorship tools into the net*or-. ABL: =or me this isn0t necessaril a.out censorship. / thin- that it0s a.out e##ective decision-ma-in%$ and a.out e##ective s stems$ and i# *e0re %oin% to put somethin% into a protocol that is alread (uite %ood at *hat it does$ *e should ma-e sure that the thin%s *e0re addin% to it can actuall deliver the results that *e *ant them to deliver. =or me$ that0s *hat / -eep comin% .ac- to" that0s *hat made me chan%e m mind a.out a.out coin taintin%. 4/t5 *asn0t that / thinpeople *ho steal coins should .e a.le to spend them at #ull value. ,he concern is that ma-in% these chan%es *on0t stop that #rom happenin%$ and it has all these other repercussions that are not necessaril %reat #or Bitcoin overall. /# *e could #i%ure out an e##ective *a to do this *ithout havin% to do somethin% li-e resort to an hour-lon% (uarantine li-e ou0re tal-in% a.out$ Andreas in theor $ that sounds li-e it could *or-$ .ut in practice$ *hat ou0ll #ind is that the ma)orit o# people *ho are havin% their coin stolen$ as *e0ve tal-ed a.out .e#ore$ it0s .ecause the have *ea- pass*ords$ i# it0s on their computer$ or the have a compromised computer or somethin% li-e that - and so these are the people *ho *ill not notice$ an hour later$ that the 0ve had a .unch o# coin stolen #rom them and -no* ho* to report it. ,hese are the people *ho *ill chec- .ac- a #e* da s later$ and then .e li-e Goh$ the 0ve .een stolen$H and then report them$ and then *hoever happens to .e holdin% the coins at that time *ell$ the 0re scre*ed. /# *e could #i%ure out a *a to do this *ithout actuall .rea-in% the *a the s stem *or-s no*$ and so that actuall solved the pro.lem *e0re tr in% to solve *hich is people spendin% coins a#ter the 0ve .een stolen$ then it *ould .e *orth havin% the conversation$ .ut until *e %et to a point li-e that$ *here there are actuall ideas on the ta.le that could *or- *ithout reall causin% pro.lems$ / )ust don0t see it. AA: ,hin- a.out it in a sli%htl di##erent *a . =or%et$ #or a moment$ the #act that this *ould potentiall .e a means #or a #uture s stem o# censorship" it #undamentall chan%es the non-reversi.le characteristic o# Bitcoin . shi#tin% the

.urden o# securit $ and con#irmin% that Bitcoin aren0t tainted$ to the recipient instead o# the sender. ,hat is a reall .i% chan%e$ .ecause no*$ i# ou receive .itcoin$ ou0re no lon%er sure that ou o*n that .itcoin$ .ecause it ma have .een reported stolen$ or ma .e reported stolen after ou receive it. Merchants are no lon%er %uaranteed that transactions *ith Bitcoin are non-reversi.le$ .ecause i# it0s reported stolen$ no* the are reversi.le$ *hich no* shi#ts the .urden$ *hich chan%es the entire trust model o# the net*or-. /t0s one o# those thin%s that ma .e harm#ul 4or5 ma .e harmless$ .ut certainl should not .e done *ithout ver care#ul consideration$ .ecause it has important implications. (Intermission ad break) =emale voice: More than three-hundred thousand users and countin% trust Bloc-chain.in#o. /t0s a .itcoin *allet service$ and a *ealth o# Bitcoin in#ormation$ and it0s completel #ree to use. 2ith a Bloc-chain.in#o *allet$ ou0ll %et the convenience o# a *e. *allet and the securit o# a des-top client. Bloc-chain.in#o is also a .loc- e@plorer" ou can use it to see Bitcoin transactions in real-time$ chec- the .alance o# an Bitcoin address$ and vie* man hand Bitcoin charts all #or #ree. See *hat the have to o##er toda at Bloc-chain.in#o. (second advert) &ason Jin%: Hi$ this is &ason Jin%$ #ounder at Sean0s Iutpost$ and ou are listenin% to Let0s ,al- Bitcoin. Sean0s Iutpost is a homeless outreach in Pensacola$ =lorida$ and *e are proudl po*ered . Bitcoin. ,o date$ over AE$BBB meals have .een #ed to the homeless in our area$ all purchased *ith Bitcoin and throu%h the %enerosit o# the cr ptocurrenc communit . 'ead more a.out us at seansoutpost.com. =ood$ shelter$ .itcoin$ ever .od " Seansoutpost.com. ABL: So$ *rappin% up the con#erence intervie*s$ Adam B. Levine here$ and Let0s ,al- Bitcoin. 'i%ht no*$ /0m )oined . &osh 'ossi$ o# the Satoshi S(uare Pro)ect and the Button*ood So#t*are Pro)ect. /s that the name o# it1 &osh 'ossi: >eah$ Product Button*ood is the so#t*are that #acilitates$ or hope#ull *ill #acilitate$ open-air person-to-person e@chan%es. ABL: So ou0re the ori%ination o# that concept applied to Bitcoin Satoshi S(uare is our innovation at this particular point$ ri%ht1 &': >eah$ ou could call it that" / thin- that0s ver %enerous$ to %ive me credit #or comin% up *ith the idea ABL: 2ell$ ou made it happen. &': 2ell$ ma .e$ es$ .ut / .asicall *ent to a meetup %roup$ and said G*hat i# *e all %ot to%ether at the same time and the same place to trade .itcoins1H /0d used LocalBitcoins once$ and / had an e@chan%e$ / used to trade on Bit#loor$ and /0ve had some oddities 4and5 other e@chan%es$ .ut Local.itcoins is %reat$ and it0s a ver popular service" / thin- it0s a*esome$ .ut / thin- that ma .e i# ou0ve alread .een doin% .itcoins #or a *hile$ ou mi%ht #eel more com#orta.le *ith

somethin% li-e that$ .ut it ou haven0t$ then / don0t thin- it0s pro.a.l %onna .e the .est entr point #or a person *ho0s never .een it it .e#ore. >ou tell them Gmeet up *ith a stran%er to do #inancial transactions$ one-on-oneH" the user 4is5 %onna #eel li-e G/ don0t -no* i# this is #or meH" / .asicall )ust said i# ou have a %roup environment$ similar to datin%$ *hen %irls are nervous ou can sa Glet0s ma-e it a %roup dateH - in the same sense$ ou *ant to have other people around. /t0s 4a5 ver .old person *ho0s %onna tr to scam someone *hile thirt other people are *atchin% him. ABL: So there are somethin% li-e ten 4or5 eleven Satoshi S(uare events that %o on around the *orld$ at this point&': >eah$ it has .een spreadin% li-e *ild#ire" / actuall *as as-ed$ at this con#erence$ to head do*n to Atlanta$ *here a couple lar%e Bitcoin companies are located$ and start a Satoshi S(uare there the *ere li-e Gi# ou0d come do*n and %et the .all rollin%$ *e0ll -eep it %oin% a#ter ou leave$ .ut *hatever ou need$ it *ould .e nice to have ou .e there #or the #irst one.H So / said Go# course Atlanta0s close$ and /0ve never .een to Atlanta$ /0d li-e to chec- it out.H / thinthat ever one is latchin% onto this idea. Ine o# the thin%s that .rin%s people to Bitcoin$ or once the %et into Bitcoin$ one o# the thin%s that the reall appreciate a.out it is Goh$ /0ve #ound a .unch o# cool people that have the same #rustrations as me re%ardin% monetar polic $H *hich$ / -no*$ sounds li-e *e0re alread )ust appealin% to nerds ri%ht there$ li-e Glet0s all %et to%ether and tal- a.out monetar polic H ABL: /sn0t it #unn that monetar polic is a nerd thin%$ no*1 &': >ou can also sa $ G/0m )ust reall interested in cr pto%raph $H .ut .esides that$ it0s )ust #un. People have a %ood time. 2e had a %u *earin% a %auntlet *ith a .atter strapped to his .elt$ minin% at Satoshi S(uare the other da - ou usuall see some #amiliar #aces #rom the Bitcoin scene$ li-e Charlie Shrem mi%ht stop . $ =red 2ilson #rom Mnion S(uare 3entures stopped . ABL: Fo*$ this is more speci#icall the &': ,he Fe* >or- one$ eah. At the Berlin one$ the have countr sin%ers sin%in% Bitcoin son%s. /t0s *hatever an %roup *ants it to .e$ and it0s ver in -eepin% *ith a voluntar -ism mentalit . / #ind that *ith a decentrali6ed thin%$ China #orc4in%5 order on it is li-e tr in% to hurt cats. Also$ it0s li-e$ G*hat ou %ain . doin% that1H - ou sti#le *hatever innovations other people are %onna come up *ith. So$ / )ust sa Gever one do *hat ou *ant to do$ i# ou *ant m advice or m help$ i# ou *ant to .ene#it #rom an mista-es /0ve made alon% the *a and %et the .ene#it o# m e@perience$ please contact$ /0m more than happ to help.H /t0s a touch unrelated$ .ut / thin- that it0s all a.out .uildin% this locali6ed net*or- that has a %lo.al reach$ ri%ht1 ABL: 'i%ht$ the %lo.al local thin%1 &': >es$ e@actl . /t0s .een met *ith a lot o# enthusiasm$ and that0s one o# the thin%s that$ as much #un as the con#erence *as$ / don0t see people cheerin% and

%ettin% all e@cited a.out Gho* do *e compl *ith =inC!F re%ulations1H - those thin%s are important$ .ut the people .ehind the scenes. ,he 0re not important #or people *ho are tr in% to prosel ti6e. People *ho are tr in% to prosel ti6e$ /0m not sa in% that ou do*npla this ABL: ,hat0s an interestin% *ord that ou0re usin% there$ prosel ti6e. GAdvocac $H / understand that$ .ut &': /t0s not m #ault. /t0s the *ords that people .een usin% latel . ,here *as a =inancial ,imes article that *as speci#icall called Gthe Bitcoin .elievers$H and the called them GBitcoin evan%elistsH" / thin- Gprosel ti6in%H is sli%htl toned do*n #rom there in %eneralC / thin- it is almost li-e a .elie# s stem / %uess ou could sa an mone is a shared .elie# s stem. 2e all have trust in this mone and *e all .elieve it to .e valua.le$ and *e e@pect that in the #uture$ people *ill ta-e it #rom us and *ith Bitcoin$ that mi%ht ta-e a little more trust than 4*ith5 somethin% that people have %ro*n up usin%$ .ut the end result is the same. / thin- o# it li-e that Berlin enclave - a ne* countr has .een #ormed$ and no* there0s small little nei%h.orhoods and poc-ets o# people *ho are li-e immi%rants #rom a di##erent land - G*e0re #rom Bitcoin land$ and *e stic- to%ether$ and *e have our o*nH - /0ve never seen so man people use the *ord G#iatH .e#oreC ABL: Ine o# the thin%s that *as a real theme at the con#erence esterda *as this idea that in order to .e a serious pla er in space$ ou have to compl $ and in order to compl $ ou have a lot o# mone to thro* at the pro.lem. ,hat0s true on the compan side especiall #or e@chan%es$ that *as reall speci#icall *hat /0m tal-in% a.out here - .ut #or people use e@chan%es$ too" i# ou %o out and tr to .u three dollars0 *orth o# Bitcoin #rom ?o@$ the 0re not %onna sell ou three dollars0 *orth o# .itcoin. ,here0s a ma)or .arrier to entr there. &': >es$ true. ,hat0s e@actl *here *e slot into this space. =irst o# all$ #or all the serious pla ers$ the need to do this$ .ut *e0re #un. 2e0re not that serious$ to .e honest *ith ou. /t *as ori%inall an homa%e to the .e%innin%s o# 2all Street$ and *ho -no*s *here it %o #rom *here it started in its hum.le .e%innin%s$ .ut$ at the same time$ / totall a%ree *ith ou" the e@chan%e model is not .uilt #or casual people *ho *anna chec- out the space$ *ho are )ust curious" i# ou tell me it0s three *ee-s$ and it0s a t*ent -#ive dollar *ire char%e ou0ve alread said that i# /0m not %onna .u ma .e 8<B dollars0 *orth$ that0s a ten percent #ee )ust to %et the .itcoins. ,here are other solutions$ too - / mean$ Mt. ?o@ *ill sell ou three dollars$ it0s )ust do ou *anna spend 8< dollars and three *ee-s )ust to %et three dollars0 *orth o# .itcoins1 Coin.ase is pro.a.l a little easier$ .ut even then a %u *ho *rote that ?i%aIM article *as li-e$ G*ell$ / thou%ht / *as %onna .e a.le to %et those coins$ .ut it turns out / loc-ed in the price ri%ht no* .ut / *on0t .e a.le to %et the coins #or #our da sH - and luc-il the did )ust recentl release$ i# ou have a tier 8 account$ *hich involves a prett invasive .ac-%round chec-ABL: 2ell$ it0s invasive compared to Bitcoin$ .ut compared to the standard #inancial s stem$ it0s the same thin%. /t0s li-e ou0re appl in% the same standards to thin%s that don0t *or- *ith those standards. /t0s an interestin% model that *e are #ollo*in%. Ine o# the the criticisms that *e hear people level a%ainst the

Satoshi S(uare or in-person meetup sort o# thin% is that is incredi.l ine##icient #rom a .road use perspective. / *as *onderin% *hat *ould ou thin- a.out that1 &': / totall a%ree *ith themC 7o / thin- that BitPa should start usin% Satoshi S(uared and .asicall li(uidate all the merchant transactions1 Pro.a.l not. ,he pro.a.l *ant to do it more than once a *ee-- in Berlin0s case$ once a month$ or LA / thin- / thin- Berlin meets$ ma .e$ a little more o#ten - this is$ in lar%e part$ a pu.lic service . people *ho love Bitcoins li-e I*en ?unden$ li-e &onathan Mohan. 2e have people *ho actuall .itcoins" this isn0t their .usiness. ,his is their ho.. $ their passion. ,he 0re sho*in% up. ,he en)o a microcosm o# the lar%e-scale #inancial mar-ets that *e %et to see on a small scale .ut at the same time it0s li-e$ Gho* also people %onna %et in the space1H /# ou tell them that the have to %o throu%h Mt. ?o@$ ou0re shuttin% the door on pro.a.l NBK o# the people *ho0ve heard o# it$ .ecause the 0re )ust not *illin% to %o )ump throu%h those )ust to %et their #irst .itcoin$ *hich the 0re not even sure that the *ant et. ,he 0ve never seen a Bitcoin transaction" the don0t -no* ho* it *or-s. Msuall $ the .est *a to learn a.out somethin% is pla *ith it. A lot o# people are visual learners$ so one o# the .i% #unctions o# Satoshi S(uare is G/ heard a.out .itcoins$ and / heard a.out this meetup %roup$ / #i%ured /0d to stop . and see *hat happens.H /t0s a consistent point o# contact. !ver Monda $ ou can %o to Satoshi S(uare$ and ou can #ind someone *ho *ill teach a.out .itcoins. >ou can #ind someone *ho ou can .u a .itcoin #rom$ i# ou 4have5 .een into .itcoins a *hile$ or ou0re a miner and ou have a phone .ill$ ou can pro.a.l sell our .itcoins #or cash. ,he .usinesses have the responsi.ilit to act pro#essionall as a .usiness. ,hose responsi.ilities and o.li%ations don0t appl to individuals$ unless$ as an individual$ this is our .usiness in *hich case$ a%ain$ ou0re no* a .usiness so$ i# ou0re an individual$ *hich .ranch o# the %overnment is in char%e o# sellin% so#as on Crai%slist1 2ho re%ulates this mar-et1 /t used to .e$ at least in this countr $ that private contracts .et*een t*o people *as the hi%hest #orm o# la*. / can .asicall enter into an a%reement *ith an one else$ and as lon% as it0s not doin% an thin% a%ainst the criminal code$ as lon% as the are o# sound mind$ then *e can ma-e *hatever deal *e *ant. / can sell ou m car #or a dollar" it0s m ri%ht to sell ou m car #or a dollar$ and i# / a%ree to it$ then it is no one else0s .usiness *hat these t*o people decide upon$ ri%ht1 =or most o# histor $ it0s .een the #act that t*o people *ho enter into an a%reement can .ind themselves to *hatever a%reement the *ant. 42ith5 .usinesses$ it0s no lon%er a s mmetrical relationship .et*een a .usiness and a consumer$ so that0s *h re%ulation steps in to sa G ou have .i% advanta%e$ ou have much lar%er economies o# scale the can pla *ith$ and ou can use in#ormation ar.itra%e$H and ou0re a.le to e@ploit more e##iciencies than an avera%e consumer can. Someone needs to looout #or the little %u $ .ut *hen .oth o# the people are little %u s$ the can .oth loo- out #or themselves.H ,hat0s the -e to it$ that0s *hat Satoshi S(uare does$ is it sa s G*ell$ not ever one in Bitcoin is a .usiness$ there are people involved.H /n lar%e part$ it *as a narrative that *as #ramed to capture the ima%ination o# people *ho are interested in #inance" people *ho are interested in Fe* >or- Cit old-school stoc- mar-et stu##. (Intermission ad break)

=emale voice: !as 7FS is the S*iss Arm -ni#e #or our domain names$ helpin% meet their customers0 individual needs since ANN:. !as 7FS has .een an outspo-en critic o# SIPA and C/SPA. !as 7FS *as an earl supporter Bitcoin$ and no* the are proud to sponsor this sho*. 7o .usiness *ith a compan that shares our values. ?et a AEK discount *hen ou pa *ith Bitcoin. ?o to .itcoin.eas dns.com and .e sure to use discount code L,B. (Second ad) =emale voice: Let0s ,al- Bitcoin is heard each *ee- . thousands o# people *ho are participatin% in the ne* di%ital econom . Iur listener .ase o# .itcoin o*ners$ miners$ investors$ technolo%ists$ and merchants is %ro*in% #ast. 2e o##er a limited num.er o# short advertisin% slots in each sho* to -eep our listeners en%a%ed and to provide ma@imum impact #or our sponsors. /# ou0d li-e to tal- to us a.out Let0s ,al- Bitcoin$ send us an email to sponsorsOletstal-.itcoin.com. ABL: Satoshi S(uare$ at its core$ is a.out accessi.ilit $ a.out education$ and a.out pu.lic e@istence and proo# that *e are not some sort o# odd su.set$ .ut$ in #act$ are normal people *ho )ust happened to .e earl to this part that *e call Bitcoin. &': !@actl . People have al*a s said G.ut it0s a virtual currenc C ,hat0s so anachronisticC ,his is the currenc o# the #uture$ and ou %u s are meetin% up the *a the did .ac- in the A:BBsH - and /0m li-e$ G 0-no*$ certain thin%s don0t scaleH - people al*a s said Gprett soon$ no one0s ever %onna have to %o to the o##ice an more$ *e can all )ust remote in$H .ut once the 0ve tried that$ the 0ve reali6ed that ou0re not .uildin% teams the same *a used to$ and it0s not the same e##ect *hen ou *rite an email as it is *hen ou sit *ith someone and talto them over lunch" these are the -ind o# thin%s that don0t translate into di%ital mediums as easil $ and as readil $ and that0s -ind o# *hat Satoshi S(uare sa s$ is: Gon one hand$ #irst o# all$ there0s t*o sides to ever transaction$ and to .e honest$ it hasn0t .een onl .itcoins and dollars" there0s .een .itcoins and t-shirts$ there .een .itcoins and silver coins and that0s not an alt coin$ that0s actuall a precious metal$ silver - one %u sho*ed up .ecause he *anted to sell .locerupters$ that *as the %u *ho *as minin% in person$ so there0s al*a s t*o sides to ever transaction. /# one side is .itcoin$ that0s %reat$ .ut there0s no *a to move dollars$ and o.viousl $ Bitcoin is the solution to a ton o# our pro.lems *ith movin% mone di%itall $ so / can0t reall rel on the di%ital pro.lems that /0m tr in% to solve in order use .itcoin$ ri%ht1 So$ ou run the situation o# G*ell$ .itcoins are %reat$ .ut ho* do / %et into this s stem1H Ince /0m in it$ / can .u $ / can sell$ / can do *hatever / *ant *ith them$ .ut %ettin% involved in the #irst place is still$ / thin-$ a prett steep .arrier to entr $ not onl educationall $ .ut the actual technolo%ical process$ or re%ulator process$ that ou %o throu%h. / )ust *anna ma-e it as eas as possi.le #or people to %et -no*led%e a.out .itoins and actuall o.tain .itcoins. ABL: So$ &osh$ in addition to ori%inatin% this idea and %ettin% the #irst one %oin%$ ou also are *or-in% on so#t*are solutions to po*er and ena.le not onl our

o*n event$ .ut events #rom around the *orld. Can ou tell us a little .it a.out *hat t pe o# #eature set ou thin- is re(uired in order to ma-e this happen1 &': /t0s called Pro)ect Button*ood. /0ll sum up the three thin%s that *e0re tr in% to address$ *hich is num.er A) distri.utin% and disseminatin% in#ormation in order to have a %ood valuation$ usin% )ust Mt. ?o@0s price leads to insta.ilit in the prices$ .ecause Goh no$ their la% is up to AB minutes no*$H all o# a sudden people are )ust dumpin% coins on ?o@$ and then *hat does that lead to1 Fot e@actl as accurate o# a picture. &ust .ecause some people are sellin% coins on ?o@$ and the prices drop there$ there are #our other e@chan%es$ and there0s hundreds o# thousands / .elieve - o# other people *ho are not *illin% to sell at that price$ .ut in some *a s$ their voice is not heard in the .asic democrac o# G*hat is a .itcoin *orth ri%ht no*1H - .asicall there0s one voice$ at least #or a lon% time it *as one voice$ *ho *as sa in% *hat a .itcoin 4is5 *orth. ABL: So$ *hat0s the solution #or this1 2here ou dra* the in#ormation #rom1 &': =rom .oots the %round. /# / could as- ABB$BBB people G*hat is a .itcoin *orth to ou1 2hat *ould ou .u one #or1 2hat *ould ou sell one #or1H - and it0s a net*or- e##ect$ .ecause as more and more people are providin% this in#ormation$ most people mi%ht start . sa in% G/0ll sell it to ou at 8K a.ove Bitstamp$ and /0ll .u #rom ou at 8K .elo* Bitstamp$ .ecause / have an account at Bitstamp. But as more and more people that ou -no* personall and more and more people that ou see across the *orld$ that ou have access to trade *ith them$ are all sa in% G#or me /0m not reall interested in sellin%$ unless it0s li-e PA8B$H that0s )ust me$ thou%h$ and other people are %onna .e em.oldened to sa G eah /0m not reall interested in sellin%$ /0m in this #or the lon%-term$ / thin- that this is *a more valua.le than *hat it0s tradin% ri%ht no*H - the *isdom o# the masses" the most accurate picture o# a price *ould come$ people votin% *ith their dollars and votin% *ith their .itcoins - i# ou %et a hundred thousand data points versus #our data points$ / thin- it0s much more holistic vie* o# *hat .itcoins are actuall *orth ri%ht no*$ and *hat the actual sentiment is amon% the people usin% .itcoins. ,hat0s one o# the thin%s that /0m tr in% to address - tr in% to %et more o# a sentiment inde@ o# *hat do people thin-$ ri%ht1 /t0s almost li-e a real-time surve that0s .ac-ed . people0s actual choices that the 0ve made. ,hat0s one o# the thin%s / *ant to do: .rin%in% ou more in#ormation$ not to sa that the in#ormation that *e have is not %ood$ *e )ust need to add more to it$ *e need as much inspiration as possi.le. ,he more in#ormation$ the more e##icient the mar-et. ,he second thin% *e *ant to do *e had some people ma-e some rather lar%e purchases$ and the *ere a.le to dra* on the net*or- o# Satoshi S(uare$ speci#icall in Fe* >or-$ .ut the *ere a.le to sho* up and sa Ghe / have this -ind o# reall novel idea that /0m tr in% to do ri%ht no*$ .ut / need a .unch o# .itcoins to ma-e it happen$ so / need to .u a .unch o# .itcoins$ can ou %u s help me1H Fo one -ne* that this %u *as comin%" no one -ne* that he *as

%onna .u the amount that he did$ .ut he did$ and most people never ima%ined that it *ould ever .e possi.le to handle that -ind o# trade$ in person$ in a par-. ABL: Can ou %ive us an idea o# *hat t pe o# num.ers ou0re tal-in% a.out1 &': ,en %rand #or one %u . ,hat *as the da *hen *e pro.a.l did #i#teen %rand. /n an mar-et$ ou have li(uidit pools$ so that %u pro.a.l in#lated the price . .u in% a lot o# .itcoins$ alri%ht$ .ecause he has a ver narro* scope o# people that he0s dealin% *ith. ,he lar%er the scale o# people ou0re dealin% *ith$ the less ou0re %onna move the price. ,hat0s *hat the second thin% that Pro)ect Button*ood is tr in% to do$ is sa Gloo-$ the easiest *a #or ou to .u .itcoins as an individual$ providin% accessH - /0ve al*a s envisioned that there *ould .e t*o di##erent t pes o# people here. >ou have our core .elievers$ people *ho are in .itcoins$ love .itcoins$ have access to .itcoins. ,he have their e@chan%e accounts$ the 0ve alread %one throu%h all the hassles #or ou. ,he 0re *illin% to %ive ou access$ no*$ throu%h their *or-$ and the 0re the ones *ho sho* up ever sin%le *ee-$ and then ou have other people ABL: So$ these are our mar-et-ma-ers$ ou0re tal-in% a.out1 &': >eah$ e@actl $ these are the mar-et ma-ers$ these are the core o# the %roup. ,hen ou also have the other people$ *ho are people *ho )ust sho*ed up .ecause the 0re curious$ the sho* up .ecause the )ust need to .u one coin the 0ve never .ou%ht a coin .e#ore. 2e had people$ )ust to se%ue #or a moment *e had a couple sho* up *ith their in#ants and sa G*e )ust *anted to .u t*o .itcoins$ *e )ust heard a.out 0em and *e #i%ured 0*h not %o to the par-10 2e *ere alread %onna %o to the par- an *a $ *ith our -ids$ and #i%ured *e0d stop . .H ,hat0s the second -ind o# person *ho *ould sho* up at Satoshi S(uare. 2hat /0m thin-in% is that the mar-et-ma-ers *e have relationships *ith people$ *ith e@chan%es$ *e have relationships *ith people in other cities$ *e have relationships *ith /'C channels. 2e can #orm a net*or- o# trust amon%st ourselves$ that .asicall - and / do this alread ri%ht no*$ to .e honest *ith ou$ it0s not as e##icient as it could .e$ and that0s *hat the so#t*are aims to do$ .ut #or e@ample i# there0s a ton o# .u interest$ and / don0t have that man coins to sell no*$ or not that man coins that /0m *illin% to sell ri%ht no* / tr to ma-e a phone call to people / -no*$ *ho are li-e$ Ghe $ ou have access a ton o# coins$ ou can easil .u them .ac- tomorro* i# ou *ant can ou help us out *ith some li(uidit here1H$ and then /0m li-e$ Gsure$ here$ /0ll send ou a hundred coins i# people need 0em$ ou -no*$ it0s #ine. ,his is *hat /0m sa in%: throu%h trust relationships$ ou can .asicall tap into a super *ide pool that0s super resilient$ that *ill never have accounts #ro6en$ that *ill never shut do*n tradin%$ that *ill .e availa.le .asicall all the time. 'emem.er that this *as .e#ore Satoshi S(uare$ .ut I*en has al*a s .een a reall core .eliever and .een a hu%e help in the Satoshi S(uare pro)ect$ and / -no* that$ in times o# %reat volatilit $ he0s still availa.le ou *anna %et out$ he0ll .e there #or ou" ou *anna %et in$ he0ll .e there #or ou. He0s al*a s *illin% to help out the communit . providin% that service. ABL: So$ he helps out . #loatin% *ith the price and still ma-in% it availa.le.

&': >eah$ he0ll still .e ma-in% it ABL: ,hat0s not somethin% that ever .od does$ necessaril &': Fo$ no$ a lot o# people are )ust there .ecause the *ant to .u $ and some people said G/0m %onna sho* up ever *ee- and )ust .u a couple coins$ .ecause / *ant to .u a couple coins ever *ee-$ and /0d rather .u them here.H A lot o# people at the con#erence 4*ere sa in%5 G/ .ou%ht this shirt *ith coins$ / .ou%ht it at Satoshi S(uare.H ,hat0s a cool thin% to see - Gdid ou .u our coins at some e@chan%e$ or did ou .u them in person at Satoshi S(uare1H /t0s almost li-e street cred$ / %uess$ .ecause *e are on the street. / )ust thin- it0s interestin%. So$ that0s the second #unction o# Satoshi S(uare. ABL: So *hat0s the third1 &': ,he third #unction is related to the second one$ in that in order to have these net*or-s$ it comes do*n to identit . 2e need to in the same *a that Bitcoin has #orced us to sa G*hat is mone 1 2hat does mone mean$ *hat is sound mone 1 Can this .e mone 1 /s this a valid concept that *e can appl to mone 1 Let0s e@periment *ith *hat0s possi.le$ let0s see *hat happens.H Most people on the hi%her level o# the development *ill al*a s sa Gthis is .eta$ it0s still e@perimental$H and it is$ and that0s the .eaut o# it that it0s e@perimental. 2e can tr $ *e can #ail Bitcoin has #ailed in a million di##erent *a s .ut it0s still more popular than ever$ still success#ul. So$ the point is e@perimentation and the a.ilit o# havin% a place to do trial-and-error t pe stu## is important. So$ in the same *a that .itcoins #orced us to re-evaluate G*hat is mone 1H$ / thin- that it0s also ma-in% us thin- o# G*hat is identit 1H. /n a %lo.al econom $ *h does m social securit card matter to someone in ?erman 1 /t reall doesn0t$ to them. 2hat mi%ht matter more to them is m =ace.oo- account. 2hat mi%ht matter more to them is m /'C handle. ,hin- a.out it this *a : / *as a hu%e #an o# the )ail.rea- scene #or iPhones. ,he iPhone dev team all have ,*itter handles$ li-e come@$ sauri-$ pod8% no*$ i# %eohot his real name is ?eor%e Hot6 said somethin% and si%ned it G?eor%e Hot6$H this is .e#ore he %ot more #amous$ .ut *ould an one care1 2ould an one .e li-e Goh m %osh$ did ou hear *hat this %u said1H - no. His identit $ in a more meanin%#ul *a $ *as %eohot$ and it *as come@$ and it *as sauri-. ,hat *as their identit to the *orld$ so *hen people *anted to intervie* them$ the *ould re#er to them that *a $ and the *ould -no* them . this online handle$ and / thin- the same thin% is happenin% in Bitcoin ri%ht no*$ *hich is that / don0t reall care a.out *hat ,rans Mnion$ !(ui#a@$ or !@perion have to sa a.out ou$ so much it reall mi%ht$ in some *a $ correlated to .itcoin$ .ut #or the most part it0s a -ind o# anti(uated s stem that doesn0t ma-e a lot o# sense to people and Bitcoin also has the chance to .asicall sa G*e0re redesi%nin% a #inancial s stem$ let0s redesi%n ho* *e loo- at credit$ let0s redesi%n ho* *e loo- at trustH - .ecause the .itcoin0s supposed to .e trust is not re(uired to use Bitcoin$ .ut at the same time$ no one *as ever %onna sa that the 0ve never ta-en a loan$ or that the 0ve never *anted a loan ho* do ou deal *ith that in de#lationar currenc $ etc. So / thin- that trust is ver important$ and identit is ver important$ and / thin- Mircea Popescu$ *ho

runs MP!Q$ summed it up ideall " he said Gidentit is a.out consistenc . /# / am the %u *ho started MP!Q$ and / si%n a contract usin% a ?P?--e $ then / also some lad comes up and sa s 0he $ /0m authori6ed to spea- on .ehal# o# MP!Q$ and ou0ve si%ned a statement to that e##ect0 - and it0s the same -e that si%ned .oth statements does it matter that his name is Mircea Popescu1 Fo$ it matters that he started this e@chan%e$ and he said that this lad can spea- #or this e@chan%e.H So$ it0s a.out consistenc moreso than a %overnment name that *as %iven to it at .irth that ou can chan%e. A lot o# those thin%s are ver easil %ame. ,here0s identit the#t runnin% rampant$ ri%ht$ and / thin- that *hat / thin- that this is tr in% to solve$ it0s sa in% G*hat i# / could have a meta-identit in the .itcoin space$ that / *ould .e -no*n to .e a valua.le mem.er$ someone *ho people can trust.H / mean$ /0ve had people at Satoshi S(uare$ m phone *as dead$ and / *as li-e G/0d sell ou t*o coins$ .ut m phone0s dead$ / can0t$ sorr $H - / tried to #ind someone else$ / %uess$ and the *ere li-e Gno$ there0s no one else sellin% ri%ht no*.H /0m li-e G/ *ish / could help ou. Ma .e ou can come *ith me to m o##ice and *e0ll tr to char%e m phone$H and he0s li-e$ G/0ll )ust %ive ou the cash$ here. &ust send it to me tomorro*$ or *hatever$ *hen ou %et home. Char%e our phone.H And /0m li-e$ G ou )ust met me toda H$ and he0s li-e G/ -no*$ .ut / thin- that ou0re trust*orth .H And / *as li-e$ GIJ$ *ell$ / am trust*orth $ .ut / do (uestion our )ud%ment a little .itH - .ut at the same time$ / sent him the t*o coins$ he *as happ $ / *as happ $ and / thin- that *hen ou see people actuall trust each other$ and .e re*arded #or havin% trusted someone$ it0s actuall a little .it it *arms our heart. ABL: /t0s a %ood thin%. &': / *ant to .asicall %ive people credit *here credit is due$ and sa G ou0ve .asicall .een there #or ever one$ to me$ our *ord is as %ood as %old$H and /0ve had a lot o# people sa G/0d pro.a.l trust ou a lot more than / trust that *e.site.H / thin- that in some *a s$ identit is movin% #rom a corporate model to an individual model$ and / thin- that that0s *hat Satoshi S(uare can do$ is sa G#rom *hat *e0ve seen$ accordin% to ho* ou acted at these e@chan%es$ is ou0ve .asicall done *hat ou said ou *ere %onna do.H ABL: / de#initel see *hat ou0re sa in% *ith that. / thin- it0s more valua.le$ thou%h$ as almost a .ootstrappin% mechanism$ )ust .ecause it doesn0t scale$ thou%h. 2hat do ou thin- 4is5 lar%est plausi.le si6e a Satoshi S(uare could %et *hile still #unctionin% at a hi%h level1 Are *e tal-in% ou events are up to ;B$ <B people &': >eah$ *e0ve %ot more than that sometimes. ABL: 2hat happens *hen ou %et <BB1 7oes it still *or-1 &': ,his is the thin%$ too / thin- it0s almost natural. /0ve seen the Bitcoin meetup %roup scene in Fe* >or-. ,he *ould start *ith one meetup %roup$ that started %ettin% a hundred people$ and a hundred and #i#t people$ and ever one0s cro*ded and ever one0s .asicall sittin% around *hile ever one is introducin% themselves -

ABL: / see$ so the splinter1 &': ,he start splinterin% o##$ and then all o# a sudden *e have a ,uesda meetup %roup #or entrepreneurs$ *e have a 2ednesda meetup #or tech %u s$ *e have a ,hursda meetup #or Bitcoin ABA$ *e have a =rida drin-up #or people *ho *anna rela@$ *e have a Monda Satoshi S(uare meetup #or people *ho *ant to trade$ and all o# a sudden$ ou start %ettin% #iner and #iner %rained niches$ *here people can #it into the niche that the 0re interested in$ and in the same *a Fe* >or- is a .i% cit $ there could .e ho* man par-s are there in Fe* >or-1 - that man Satoshi S(uares$ / %uess$ and that0s not to sa that Satoshi S(uare is limited to par-s in Berlin$ the do it in a .ar$ and *e )ust %o to !3' i# ever the *eather0s loo-in% a little inclement. M point is that there0s no need to sa Glet0s %et AB$BBB people to%ether and /0ll tradeH - .ut$ at the same time$ / *ould sa the so#t*are$ *hich is .asicall $ i# ou *anna tal- a little more a.out the speci#ics o# the so#t*are ABL: >eah$ *ell / *as %onna as-$ so those are pro.lems / de#initel a%ree that are #aced . various parts o# the Bitcoin communit $ speci#icall the ones that ou0re en%a%in% *ith. So$ ho* #ar alon% are ou in development o# the solution1 Ho* does it *or-1 /t it somethin% that is accessi.le to the avera%e user1 &': /t is$ ri%ht no*. /t0s reall .eta. / .asicall coded it up m sel# and /0m not the .est coder in the *orld. / do *hat / can / love codin%$ .ut that doesn0t ma-e me a %reat coder. ABL: 'i%ht. >ou0re doin% it .ecause it has to .e done. &': !@actl . ,hat0s the thin% too$ there0s a lot o# other thin%s that need to .e done$ so / have to do those too$ so m time is constantl divided amon% #ive or si@ di##erent thin%s. ,he codin% part is usuall the part that su##ers$ .ecause /0m t picall li-e GIJ$ there0s a computer screen here$ it0s %onna .e here *hen / %et .ac-. ,here0s a person *ho needs me to *rite them .ac- an emailH - li-e$ that0s a person$ so the should .e prioriti6ed. ABL: / can relate to this. &': An .od *ho emails me$ /0m li-e G*ell$ the 0re *aitin% on a response$ the computer doesn0t mind *aitin%$ so / thin- it0s more polite to respond to the email than to i%nore themH - even thou%h toda / did that #or a little *hile$ and it #elt so %ood$ )ust to sit at the computer and i%nore the *orld it0s ver rou%h ri%ht no*$ and /0m tr in% to #i@ that. /t0s an open source pro)ect on ?itHu. ri%ht no*. / mean$ literall $ / *as sho*in% people at the con#erence$ *ho are desi%nin% 2all Street level tradin% s stems 0-no*$ G*e use this cra6 technolo% $ and that cra6 technolo% H - and / sho*ed them m little hum.le *e. app / can have m cellphone out and .asicall place an order$ and then it pops up on another computer *ithin less than a tenth o# a second$ / *ould sa and then / can update that order in real time$ and it0s .asicall a reall %ood *a to disseminate in#ormation$ to .roadcast it to a %roup$ to have an one person .e a.le to .roadcast to an other person$ *hich is e@actl *hat /0m loo-in% #or #or distri.uted e@chan%e.

So$ Meteor is an ama6in% idea. / thin- it0s a ne* paradi%m #or the *e.$ to .e honest. ,hat0s *h / chose it .ecause it also opens up the doors and provides access to *or- on this pro)ect to .asicall an one *ho0s ever done an thin% online. /# ou0ve done an *e. pro%rammin%$ ou -no* &avascript. >ou can *oron this pro)ect in *hatever sense ou *ant to. >ou can .e part o# the desi%n$ ou can .e part o# the .ac-end s stems$ ou can .e part o# the data.ase team / mean$ *hen / sa that$ there0s not a data.ase team yet$ .ut / *ould li-e there to .e a data.ase team$ and / *ould li-e there to .e a desi%n team. ABL: So$ let0s tal- a.out this #or a second. Ho* .i% is the team ri%ht no*1 /s there a team1 /s this )ust ou$ &osh1 &': /t0s li-e one. /t0s a *ol#-pac- o# one ri%ht no*. Actuall $ I*en ?unden has helped me a ton. 2e actuall *ere codin% it up at the San &ose con#erence$ .ecause / actuall spo-e a little .it at that investors0 panel$ and / )ust *anted to use it as a plat#orm to sho* o## the idea o# decentrali6ed$ in-person e@chan%es$ and also to sho* o## the so#t*are. / thin- it %ot a lot o# people ver interested in Meteor$ as *ell as the speci#ic pro)ect o# Meteor. Since then$ *e have .een .us *ith a lot o# other thin%s$ and it0s .asicall .asicall $ it has not pro%ressed as much as / *ouldn0t have li-ed it to in this time. / have that core #unctionalit that *or-s ri%ht no*$ and people use it *e can still -ind o# .u% ou$ *e have a %eolocation that0s .uilt in$ so / can loo- at a map and see all the di##erent orders that people are placin%. /0m tr in% to #ilter it more . lo%ical %roups$ li-e Fe* >or-$ Miami$ 3ancouver$ San =rancisco. ABL: So$ this is not a San =rancisco has its o*n instance$ Fe* >or- has its o*n instance this is a collective s stem. &': / *ant it to .e a collective s stem$ .ecause / thin- that0s *here the value comes in. (ABL: So$ *e0re .ac- to the %lo.al-local thin%1) !@actl . 2e meet up in person$ and *e0ve actuall alread done cross-continental trades$ / %uess" *e0re had people in Fe* >or- tradin% *ith people in LA usin%$ / thin-$ Chase Ruic-Pa $ or somethin% li-e that" *hich$ a%ain$ i# /0m usin% Chase Ruic-Pa $ it ta-es a lot more trust than i# / *as %onna )ust accept cash #rom ou$ *hich is *h it0s importantABL: /s that .ecause it0s reversi.le1 &': >eah. &ust li-e i# / *as %onna use Pa pal$ or 3enmo / thin- 3enmo0s reversi.le$ / reall don0t -no* ABL: Have ou had much pro.lem *ith #raud1 &': Sero so #ar. ABL: Zero #raud1 &': 'eall $ there0s .een 6ero #raud to this point ri%ht no*. ,he most ne%ative e@perience that an one0s had at a Satoshi S(uare event *as someone didn0t

include a transaction #ee$ *hich meant that it too- a little *hile #or that transaction to clear. ABL: / see$ so )ust anno in%. &': >eah$ it *as anno in%. /t0s an honest mista-e$ and *hat can ou do a.out it$ ri%ht1 / actuall have .een tellin% people that another thin% / thin- is the #uture is o##-.loc-chain transactions$ .ecause not every single transaction has to %o throu%h the .loc-chain. A %u named ,rade=ortress - and the #act that / )ust called him ,rade=ortress is .ecause / don0t -no* his real name .ut / -no* *hat he0s done$ and he0s .uilt somethin% called inputs.io it0s an o##-.loc-chain .itcoin *allet. >ou can$ o.viousl $ trans#er .itcoins throu%h the .loc-chain$ into the *allet$ and out a%ain$ .ut *hen ou have the same *allet someone at Coin.ase$ / thin-$ has a similar s stem *hich means that i# /0m sendin% #rom a Coin.ase *allet to another Coin.ase *allet$ *e don0t .other %oin% throu%h the .loc-chain and pa in% #ees. /t0s instant$ and it0s immediate$ and it0s done irreversi.l .ecause ou trust compan not to reverse it$ .asicall . ABL: So$ that0s .asicall *hat / sa is the .est *a #or people at Satoshi S(uare to trade there$ i# ou0re %onna do a decent amount o# tradin%$ then ou should pro.a.l use inputs.io 4proo#-reader0s note: inputs.io is no* de#unct.5 .ecause our trades are instant and ou don0t have to pa an #ees or *orr a.out calculatin% #ees. ,hat0s another thin% that an app *ill eventuall hope#ull do: lin- into all these AP/s$ li-e$ *e can hope#ull lin- into our inputs.io *allet or our .loc-chain *allet" GM 2alletH is *hat it0s called$ ri%ht1 Hope#ull $ *e can even lin- in *ith 3enmo or Pa pal / mean$ that0s almost li-e a dirt *ord in the Bitcoin space$ .ut / )ust *ant to provide access #or as man people to have as man options as possi.le to trade *ith other people. So$ as that technolo% %ro*s$ and as it .ecomes more popular *hat / .asicall tried to do *as tell people *hat the needed$ and then .uild a product *ell$ this is .asicall a G#reeH product$ .ut eventuall / also see people providin% services li-e escro*$ li-e insurance$ li-e =Q hed%in%$ ri%ht1 G/ need to .u a .unch o# .itcoins$ .ut /0m not %onna spendin% them ri%ht a*a $ and until / spend them$ / don0t *ant the value to %o do*n. / need to .u si@ thousand dollars0 *orth o# somethin% in .itcoin. / don0t *ant the price to %o do*n on me$ .ecause / need to .u si@ thousand dollars0 *orth.H ,here are more comple@ #inancial tools to do this$ .ut the can .e made to appear seamless and smooth to the end-user$ and / thin- that it0s )ust a matter o# G*ho *ants to %et creative$ *ho *ants to do somethin% interestin%H - and / thinthat the vision has .een proven out as people li-e doin% thin%s this *a $ the see the value$ so no* it0s a matter o# ma-in% it easier #or them and tr in% to o##er them more value$ tell them G*hat do ou #ind valua.le1 2hat *ould ou li-e to see1 2e can .uild that$H and that0s *hat / *ant to see happen more. ,hat0s *h /0m more #ocused on the so#t*are side o# thin%s$ no*$ .ecause / thin- that not that m )o.0s done$ in an sense$ .ut / thin- that it0s spreadin% *ithout me no*$ and / don0t need to the idea is catchin% on. (ABL: /t seems li-e it0s catchin% on.) >eah$ it0s catchin% on$ / thin-$ / don0t thin- / need to hand-hold so much an more$ and / mean$ i# / move #rom Fe* >or- /0m ABBK sure that Satoshi S(uare *ill continue on.

ABL: ,hat0s a*esome$ &osh. >ou said that the pro)ect0s up on ?itHu. &': /t is it0s %ithu..comT)oshuarossiTButton*oodUmeteor ABL: Let0stal-.itcoin.comT.utton*ood. &': >eah$ e@actl $ easier- much easier to remem.er. But there0s actuall t*o pro)ects" /0m .asicall ta-in% the ori%inal code$ *hich is the heart and soul o# the *hole Pro)ect Button*ood thin%$ *hich is .asicall )ust an order.oo- a distri.uted order.oo- that an one can put orders into$ that -eeps trac- o# *hat the .est price is. /0m tr in% to .asicall re#actor that code$ ma-e it roc--solid$ .ulletproo#$ and then move it into a much prettier *e.site that / desi%ned$ *ith much more #eatures. ,hat0s *hat the other one$ *hich is called Button*ood Advanced$ that0s another pro)ect on m same %ithu. eventuall $ *e0re %onna start plu%%in% in those #eatures into that #rame*or- that /0ve set up. As each piece .ecomes ABBK relia.le$ it0ll ma-e it into the ne@t-%en plat#orm #or Pro)ect Button*ood. ABL: Are there an upcomin% Satoshi S(uares in places that *e haven0t heard a.out doin% them et$ that ou -no* are pro.a.l %onna .e havin% a thin% in the ne@t couple o# *ee-s1 &': / heard a lot o# rumors a.out Austin doin% one - / thin- that ma have .een under*a $ / thin- the plans have .een set$ / thin- it0s an da $ no* ma .e ne@t *ee-$ / don0t -no* .ut there0s a hu%e presence o# .itcoin stu## in Austin$ and / thin- it )ust ma-es sense that the 0re %onna do one there. 3ancouver did it esterda $ so / thin- /0m not sure i# ever one heard a.out that$ .ut 3ancouver )ust started Miami did it a little .it a%o. ABL: So$ more ever *ee-1 &': >eah. More and more ever *ee-$ /0ve )ust .een sa in%. / %o on reddit once a *ee-$ t picall $ to *rite and sa Ghe $ it0s Satoshi S(uare is in Mnion S(uare <-D$ ou *anna .u or sell .itcoins or )ust come . and chat$ please stop . .H And then / )ust put the *ord out there$ ever sin%le Monda $ and people still told me G/ don0t -no* *here ou *ere this *ee-H and /0m li-e$ G/ put this in#ormation in the same e@act places there0s three ,*itter #eeds" there0s the =ace.oo- %roup$ Satoshi S(uare =ace.oo- %roup$ and there is the reddit. And the Bitcoin,al#orums sometimes not as consistentl .H So$ /0m sa in% those are the mediums throu%h *hich *e disseminate the in#ormation o# Goh$ it loo-s li-e it0s a ;BK chance o# rainH$ and *e0ve .een cau%ht in the rain$ so *e are not ea%er to replicate that$ so *e usuall %o to !3' on da s *hen it loo-s li-e it mi%ht rain. ABL: And !3' is$ o# course$ the .ar that accepts .itcoins in Fe* >or- Cit C Charlie Shrem0s .ar$ it0s %reat. &': 2e *ere )ust there last ni%ht #or the a#ter-part at the con#erence. ABL: >eah$ it *as #un.

&': 2e had a %reat time$ althou%h m head *as not so happ *ith me toda *hen / *o-e up. ABL: / had to ta-e a couple , lenols a little *hile a%o #or that e@act reason. &': !@actl $ .ut it0s all #or the cause$ ri%ht1 ABL: So$ ou0re loo-in% #or *hat1 &': M/ ABL: - and ou *ant everybody &': >eah$ ever .od $ as man people as possi.le *ho *ant to %et in on this. ,he other thin% that *e0re %onna start *or-in% on soon$ / hope someone approached me and said the *ant to *or- on a Fashville native app #or Android$ *hich / thin- is a crucial thin% that *e need to %et %oin%$ and /0m not entirel sure o# the inte%ration path o# the *e. app$ .ut /0m sure it0s possi.le and /0m sure it0s %onna %et done and *e0re %onna do it .ut that0s another thin%$ / *anted to )ust *or- on our phone$ .ecause most people are usin% their phones an *a and the easier ou can ma-e it$ *here / can )ust clic- an order and / can .asicall send him coins prett much seamlessl $ and he0ll )ust .e li-e Ghe -ho$ ou0re the %u ri%ht here$ ou -no*H - and . the #act that / *as in a trade$ .oth o# our user ratin%s %et a .ump up. ,hat0s *hat / *as %oin% to sa earlier" speci#icall $ / *ould sa most people can put a ver hi%h$ de#ina.le monetar dollar value on their seller ratin%s on eBa . / can literall char%e <K more than someone *ithout m ratin%$ .ecause o# m user ratin% ABL: And so$ ou thin- that that0ll &': Same thin%$ / thin-$ *here our name has to .e in %ood standin% in order to have people trust ou$ to send ou irreversi.le di%ital %old across the countr *ithout -no*in% our real name ou0ve %otta have somethin%. 2e0re de#initel loo-in% #or an developers$ an .od *ho0s e@perienced in &avascript Mon%o7B$ Fo&S$ speci#icall i# ou -no* Meteor$ ou are e@actl *ho *e0re loo-in% #or. / reall love the Meteor %roup that - people in Fe* >or- are %reat$ Alissa Schavins- $ a couple other people as *ell - the have a %reat /'C channel. /# ou -no* Meteor$ then ou are the e@act person /0m loo-in% #or$ .ut i# ou -no* Mon%o7B or i# ou )ust -no* &avascript then ou0re still ver *elcome and ver much needed. /# ou .elieve in this idea$ i# ou thin- it0s use#ul$ *e *ould love to have ou come help us. ABL: Are ou loo-in% #or an t pe o# colla.orators *ho are outside o# the codin% spectrum1 &': 7e#initel $ mostl people *ho *ant to or%ani6e$ and are *ho *as it in Malcolm ?lad*ell0s .oo-$ those connector people Aaron$ Joni%$ and Berlin and it0s )ust li-e$ G&osh$ / *anna do one in Berlin$H and /0m li-e$ Glet0s do it.H And some people are li-e Gho* do *e %o a.out doin% this1H and /0m li-e G ou %u s are ma-in% this *a too di##icult.H

ABL: >eah$ ri%ht$ ou )ust sho* upC &': >ou )ust tell people Ghe $ *e0re %onna do one o# these here$H and %et a .unch o# our #riends to han% out *ith ou. ,he -e is consistenc in those -ind o# scenarios. / used to *or- in a .ar$ and our o*ners *ould never let us close .e#ore #our$ .ecause it could .e ver slo* that Sunda $ .ut ne@t Sunda $ i# someone0s sittin% at home and sa in% G/ *as thin-in% o# stoppin% . the .ar are the %onna .e open or not1 / don0t -no*$ /0m not %onna .other ris-in% it. /0m )ust %onna sta home. 2h .other sho*in% up )ust to #ind that it0s closed1H And that0s the -e $ ou0ve %otta .e consistent$ ou %otta sho* up and ou %otta .e there$ and i# ou .elieve in the concept o# in-person e@chan%es$ or i# ou and / personall .elieve that i# ou .elieve in .itcoin and *ant it to succeed$ then ou should .e tr in% to provide access to people *ho don0t have access ri%ht no*$ or *ho are interested .ut don0t -no* ho* to %et into the space and / don0t -no* o# an easier *a . Prett much ever one that /0ve tal-ed to has a%reed *ith me$ that the don0t -no* o# an easier *a $ #or people to %et their #irst .itcoin or to learn more a.out Bitcoin. So$ i# ou .elieve in Bitcoin$ / thin- it0s important to tr to provide access #or people. ABL: &oshua$ o.viousl ou have a %reat vision$ and o.viousl a lot o# passion #or this topic$ and ou0re ma-in% it happen$ and / reall thin- ou0re doin% %reat *or-$ so -eep up the %ood *or-$ and i# ou have the a.ilit to help this %u out$ do me a #avor$ personall $ and ma-e it happen. &': ,han- ou so much$ / reall appreciate the vote o# con#idence. ABL: Li-e / sa $ -eep up the %ood *or-. ,his is #antastic. &': ,his has .een a *hirl*ind #or me$ and / -inda love the #act that / #eel li-e /0m doin% somethin%$ hope#ull $ that is ma-in% some people happ $ or people are %ettin% some sort o# value out o# it. ,o *hatever e@tent / can$ / hope that / #urther these %oals and don0t hinder them. ABL: 2ell$ *e loo- #or*ard to chec-in% in *ith ou a%ain$ as the so#t*are pro%resses and as *e see more Satoshi S(uares roll out around the *orld. &': !@actl $ / thin- S dne $ Australia0s %onna .e comin% soon the -e is$ the one thin%$ is that i# ou *ant to start a Satoshi S(uare in an e@otic location$ and ou *ant me to come there ou #eel li-e #l in% me out / am totall availa.le. &ust tell me *hen and *here$ and / *ill come out to an e@otic$ interestin% location. So$ an one *ho *ants to do a Satoshi S(uare in Honolulu$ please %et in touch *ith me. ABL: ,han-s #or listenin% to episode 4E:5 o# Let0s ,al- Bitcoin. Content #or toda 0s sho* *as provided . Stephanie Murph $ Andreas M. Antonopoulos$ Moe Levin$ and &osh 'ossi. Music *as provided . &ared 'u.ens. /# ou can0t %et enou%h ori%inal thou%ht and discussion$ read our dail .lo% at letstal-.itcoin.com$ si%n up #or our *ee-l ne*sletter at the*ee-l .itcoin.com$ and participate in our listener #eed.ac- area at letstal-.itcoin.comTtal-. See a ne@t timeC