Its A Passion Business: Thomas Winkler On Artist Management

Its not an easy gig, Ill tell you that, says Thomas Winkler on artist
management. Winkler himself is an artist manager working for Votiv Artist Management
Company in New York City. Winkler manages multiple developing artists through Votiv,
including San Fermin, who played at JMU last year and CMJ this past October. Its a
passion business, says Winkler. If youre not passionate, youre not going to want to
work in this industry. And passion he has. Winkler claims that management is easy for
him because it fits my attitude and personality very well, but he had to climb to the
position he has now. Winkler started as a tour manager for the Vans Warped Tour when
he was in high school, which gave him his first taste for the music industry, and from
then on he did not want to do anything else. In college, he worked for the student radio
station, as well as an intern for Victory Records in Chicago on school breaks. Once he
graduated college, he studied copyright law at Fordham University, knowing that his
ultimate goal would be to represent talent in the music industry. After graduating law
school, he picked up his first client, a band called Deleted Scenes from the Washington,
DC area. Its very much a word-of-mouth industry, says Winkler on how managing one
artist led him to manage his five current clients. People you know help to build you up,
help you to build your network. Winkler is also a firm believer in hands-on experience.
You cant really be taught fully how to manage an artist in the classroom, says
Winkler. You just kind of have to do it. For Winkler, the artist management business is
a combination of getting experience, learning about the industry, and building network.
Those three key points led Winkler to his current position.


A common belief in the music industry is that a law degree is always a beneficial
thing to have, and Winkler agrees. Having a law degree is tremendously helpful, says
Winkler. A legal background is fantastic because the industry and contracts are so
involved with each other. Its an industry that is probably more tied into the legal issues
on a day to day basis than some others, says Winkler, so having that background in
learning the deals of the industry, understanding revenue streams, and other finer points
of the music industry is extremely beneficial. And, of course, it saves Winkler a lot in
legal fees. However, he says, Artists will still hire lawyers for second opinions and also
because sometimes I just dont have enough time in the day. When this happens, the
contracts between Winkler and his artists are written in part by a lawyer, who ensures that
the contractual language is clear and that the pair does not end up with a boilerplate
contract. The only downside to a legal background, according to Winkler, is that you
start in the industry at an older age because you have to go through law school. In
general, though, Winkler believes that a law degree is definitely important because it
gives you a greater understanding of whats going on.
How does Winkler go about assessing the artists he would want to manage?
Theres four things going on for me: songs, live performance, does the artist have a
story, and is the artist resourceful, says Winkler. In terms of songs, I look at how good
are the songs, the melodies, the lyrics? Where does this fit in the current music industry
climate? Winkler knows that the content of the song must be strong, but there must also
be interest in the song from the market. He also recognizes that promotion for the song is
important, so he assesses what the press for the songs would look like, as well as how it
could be promoted overall. For live performances, Winkler not only looks at whether or


not the artist can perform well, but also if there an x-factor in their performance that
maybe sets them apart from other artists. Winkler speaks of how saturated the music
market currently is, so choosing an artist that will stand out in a live setting is an
important aspect. When exploring whether the artist has a story, he looks for what the
artist is all about. Do they have a vision? What is there to tell beyond the music?
Winkler believes that the artist is more than their music; their music must be an extension
of something within themselves that they cannot bear to not express. In this sense, he
would only want to take on an artist that is fully committed to the job because the job is
an extension of their life. Assessing the story of the artist blends into Winkler assessing
the resourcefulness of the artist. He is focused on finding an artist that can be creative
while portraying an intriguing persona. It gives you an edge, Winkler says on this
persona, because there are a lot of great songs out there, so I think those last two
components are something that give the artist an edge.
Creating the intriguing edge for the artist also extends to the artists image.
Winkler believes that when creating the artists image you have to lean on artists with
great vision. If you start working with an artist that has no vision, but they have a great
voice, thats a hard battle to fight, and an uphill one at most as well. Winkler knows that
putting out music is a marketing process as well as a creative process, and thinks that the
most effective image is one that comes from working closely with the artist during the
branding process. For Winkler, the artist is the one that brings the image forward. He
believes that the artist has to be brilliant not only in songwriting and production, they
have to be brilliant in their creative aesthetic ideas and visual ideas. The manager,
according to Winkler, is there to tease it [creativity] out of them [the artist] and help


them to put it into action. In this regard, the artist has to be the one fore-fronting the
creative process of the image, because, according to Winkler, this ensures that the image
is organic and creative and that the artist will buy into it.
However, Winkler does not believe that the image and overall success of an artist
relies on the artist solely writing their own material. Its like a teacher giving you a
prompt, Winkler says of the co-writing process. Its like the producer and writer kind
of coaching them through a song and its still their voice and its still part of them. To
Winkler, co-writing does not invalidate the authenticity of the song. Its still gonna [sic]
be their [the artists] vision, and the writers are going to want to write for them, their
aesthetic. Though full authorship of songs is important for artists in terms of earning
royalties, some artists do not have the innate ability to create accessible songs that are
marketable to the music-listening public. The artists manager is there to step in and,
hopefully, push the artist into writing their own material under the belief that it is within
the artists best interest. Winkler, however, does not believe that the songwriting must fall
solely on the artists shoulders if the artist is not capable of writing decent songs. A cowriting session is like going to a tutor, Winkler says, and the producers and the writers,
there is a vision discussed, and they [the producers and the writers] try to tease it out of
them [the artist] and make it more competitive, just make it better. There is no lacking of
authenticity or of creative vision from the artist; instead, the manager brings in help so
that the artists vision can reach its full potential and so the artist can produce a high
caliber of work.
When discussing revenue streams and royalties in the music industry, Winkler
recognizes that the industry itself is changing and that there is a lot more to navigate


when a manager is trying to lead an artist down a successful path. With the increase in
streaming sites such as Spotify, most artists are moving either solely digital or solely
physical in terms of their music. There becomes a dichotomy that the artists must balance
between, especially with the recent exposure of Spotifys business plan, which pays
artists tiny royalties for each play of a song. Larger artists, such as Taylor Swift, have the
luxury of removing their music from streaming sites without suffering from a decrease in
revenue. Smaller independent artists, however, must compete with these larger artists in
any way they can, meaning that they need the exposure that streaming sites will give
them, even if it comes at the price of lower royalty rates. For managers, this means that
they must help the artist to decide which path of action would elevate their career overall,
something that Winkler has spent much time thinking about. On the recording side of
business, in terms of selling, were there, Winkler says on the transfer from CDs to
digital. The question becomes, how does the music industry figure out how they are
going to capitalize, how do the copyright holders figure out how to capitalize on more
revenue from each stream. Winkler manages independent artists, meaning removing the
artists music from streaming sites is not a viable option, which he believes begs the
question does streaming cannibalize sales? Winkler himself, much like many
executives in the music industry, is still on the fence about how beneficial streaming sites
will be in the long run, because, as he says, its a case by case scenario and there is not
yet enough data to prove whether the music industry will suffer a great upheaval as a
result of this.
However, Winkler believes that this shift in the industry has caused another
challenge for the artists. Now, the live touring game is so crowded and it is more


saturated that it has ever been, Winkler says. He believes this is because of two factors:
People have more disposable income, and artists have to tour more because theyre not
making any money on record sales. This has created what Winkler refers to as festival
culture, meaning large shows featuring multiple artists over several days. Theres more
demand for an artist to play a festival, theres no doubt about it, Winkler says, mainly
because, he believes, corporations are stepping in and using festivals as a way to increase
the scope of their brands. This brings more money into festivals, and, as Winkler
previously explained, artists need all the revenue they can find because of the decline in
record sales. I think it [declining record sales] has forced it [festival culture], Winkler
says on the increase in festivals these years. I think since artists are more eager to tour
and to play more shows, obviously there is a demand for more festivals. Usually,
festivals do not pay artists as much money as they would make on a live tour they put on
independently. Festivals must cut up the budget between all of the acts that are playing,
meaning less revenue goes to each artist. The artist is also not getting as much exposure,
because they only play one or two sets as opposed to a set every night on a tour. Before,
the tour was used to promote a record; now, according to Winkler, you make a record to
tour. Shows have become the main source of revenue for these artists, because the
streaming sites, as Winkler puts it, have started to cannibalize record sales and artists
cannot rely solely on records to produce an income.
Winkler also notes that this changing in revenue streams for the artist has resulted
in revenue changes in other industries, as well as in budgeting issues. Its a cause and
effect business, Winkler says on the music industry. The biggest issue for recorded
music is that the music budgets are continuing to get cut. If people are watching less TV,


then theres less money being allocated toward the music budget. If theres less money
allocated toward the music budget, then theres less music getting exposure. This means
that less and less revenue is coming in from recorded music, and, again, is forcing the
artist to find other means of making a profit off of their music. The manager, in turn,
must then become creative in their attempts to sell the artist to the public, which, as
Winkler believes, is what is driving the festival culture and the increase in live shows
in general. This is also putting more pressure on the artist managers to continually bring
success to their artists, which is the main component of their job. This decrease in
revenue has made internal budgeting, or budgeting for the band, the manager, and all of
their affiliates, to become much more tricky. According to Winkler, the toughest part of
the job is making the budget work. All of my artists are developing artists, so the budget
is always on the forefront of our minds. With the decrease in record sales and the lack of
viable income from streaming, as well as the saturation of the music industry by so
many artists, as Winkler puts it, independent artists are taking the biggest hit in terms of
revenue. This in turn puts more stress onto the manager as they try to figure out how to
market their artist on a limited budget, as well as try to bring in as much revenue as
possible while spending as little as possible. Winkler, though successful with his multiple
artists, agrees that navigating the budgets is the hardest part of the job, no doubt about
it. Luckily, he and his artists are able to work together through most of these issues to
make sure that they are continually on the path to success.
Though the job of an artist manager is not easy, Winkler ascribes by many
behavioral practices to ensure that he is doing the best job that he can. Youre
accountable to your artist, Winkler says on the tenets by which he works. No matter


how hard or rough the news is or how positive the news is, you gotta [sic] communicate,
you gotta [sic] be honest, and you gotta [sic] be transparent. The right people will
understand when youre delivering bad news, but you gotta [sic] deliver it honestly. To
Winkler, lying to his artist, or withholding information from his artist, is not even an
option. He recognizes that if there is no trust between the artist and the manager, then that
relationship cannot survive and the artist and the manager cannot thrive in the industry. I
want accountable artists and I have to be accountable to my artists, says Winkler on the
foundation of the relationship. Winkler also recognizes that the managing job is difficult
and all consuming. I never have time off, Winkler says. This year is the first time Ive
had Christmas and New Years off in four years. A manager is working 24/7 to ensure
that their artists careers continue to be successful. There are a lot of great things about it
[the managing job], Winkler says, and as a manager, you feel victories as much as your
artist feels victories, and you feels losses just the same. It goes both ways, and youre on
the front line. To Winkler, being on the front line is the most rewarding part of the job.
The job allows for him to constantly learn and develop different skills, while also helping
the artists life and career to thrive. Knowledge is the most valuable thing in life, says
Winkler, which is why he is grateful for his position as an artist manager, because each
day teaches him something new.