Jerome Finley - Controversial - Emperor Has No Clothes Thread - Magic Cafe - Wednesday April 3 2013

2013-04-03 4:33 PM
(Close Window)
Topic: The emperor has no clothes.
Message:
Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 16, 2013 1:04pm)
There are a few hot creators in the mentalism market who produce a lot of risky material. By risky, I
mean sometimes it works and sometimes it fails to produce a good effect. I like the idea of taking risks
alongside surefire methods because it can result in unexplainable moments that bolster the whole effect.
What's hard to understand is the cult following these creators have despite their very expensive, limitedrelease books. Their volumes are full of interesting yet mostly unreliable material, usually including a few
effects that work well but aren't groundbreaking. Some buyers will pay over $200 for one book of
psychological forces they could have easily thought of for themselves, plus a few decent effects thrown in
(but never enough to justify the price). Meanwhile Banachek's entire PS trilogy costs $165 and includes
both psy-forces and workhorse routines that frankly leave the new books in the dust.
I find myself thinking, "Why are folks at the Caf raving about this new book? Who is this guy? Are they
all his friends? He's okay but he isn't any more creative than my friends in mentalism are. Has anyone
ever seen him perform?" Sometimes I think, "This book is mediocre and the price is high to make it
seem more wonderful than it is. It's a psychological ploy to make people value the material more; buyers
want what's harder to attain." Or worse, "This author is a flim-flam man and the Magic Caf is where he
finds his willing marks." Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't get it, but I feel this way most often about
material created by guys who are "playing it for real". I guess they work for audiences full of followers
and can say and do many things without scrutiny, things I can't get away with in a show for skeptics at
the university. Yet these creators seem to be nice guys and no one wants to write a bad review. Instead,
buyers quietly and politely dump these books in the "Let's Make a Magic Deal" forum.
When we flatter people for their mediocre work it takes away from our praise of excellent work, and
there is so much excellent work out there. Give me thoughtful creators like Bruce Bernstein, Bob
Cassidy, Doug Dyment, Ted Karmilovich and Richard Mark to name a few. I'm done with the new kids,
done with the self-described gurus who talk a good game but won't allow their performances to be seen
by us. If they wanna' charge $15 for an ebook I might support them but no way am I paying $250 for
another steaming pile of "new". I took the bait once and learned my lesson.
Message:
Posted by: Smoking Camel (Mar 16, 2013 1:07pm)
Mike do you have any specific examples?

Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 13:07, Smoking Camel wrote:

Mike do you have any specific examples?
Yes I do. That's not why I wrote. I think creators can read this and pause before slapping a high price on
their work. Instead, I gave good examples to follow.
Message:
Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 1:17pm)
Where can I buy these no-clothes? downloads?

Message:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/printtopic.php?topic=504389&forum=15
Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 16, 2013 1:29pm)
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Mike, not only does the Emporer have no clothes, he's pretty gaunt and scrawny.
I doubt their 'performances' would be acceptable by anyone. I've followed a few vids of these
cornucopias of mediocrity in action and their performances in real life are abysmal. Fumbly, floppy,
rambly and, usually, low-pop effects.
But...it's an easy way to make an extra 15 grand a year, every year.
Message:
Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 1:35pm)
A whole book of christian chelman is for 100 euros. Its full of working material, the book itself is a piece
of art ( for those lucky enough to posses one).
Switchcraft was 20 $ if I remeber well.
These are the two things I consider before purchasing something...
They are hard to beat..
Message:
Posted by: DrTodd (Mar 16, 2013 1:56pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 13:35, THB wrote:

A whole book of christian chelman is for 100 euros. Its full of working
material, the book itself is a piece of art ( for those lucky enough to posses
one).
Switchcraft was 20 $ if I remeber well.
These are the two things I consider before purchasing something...
They are hard to beat..
The New Chelman book is delightful!

Message:
Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 2:13pm)
It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things
differently.
Warren Buffett
Message:
Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 16, 2013 2:29pm)
I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was around
$20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick). Creators and
authors can price their material as they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it wants it at that price.
There is a difference between a mass produced commercial publication and a private publication. The two
cannot be compared. And it has been common throughout the history of our art for private, limited
distribution publications to go for high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at that time, a huge
sum.
I did do something a little different though. I offered to refund those not happy with what they received.
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had some of the material from another publication I was include in.
When my material was released by a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee.
Tony
Message:
Posted by: Rick Maue (Mar 16, 2013 5:49pm)
I was told by several young mentalists that I should follow their lead and sell my ebook, The Road, for a
couple hundred bucks. After all, it includes a number of my signature pieces from my actual stage act.
They insisted that the material had to have a high price.
And so, to this day, The Road sells for $22.
And my other ebook, Digital Deception, has other signature pieces (The Journey & Imagine), and the
same high-priced suggestion from other mentalists resulted in that release coming out at $25.
Each creator has to do what is best for them. To me, such high prices simply don't fit who I am.
Keep the change,
Rick
Message:
Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 6:02pm)
I agree, Rick. I've never released a book or eBook that sold for more than fifty dollars. That includes my
290 page hardcover, The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy which contains virtually all of my signature
pieces and sells for around $45.00. And yet I've seen more than a few "improvements" of the routines in
my books being sold as single effect releases by relatively unknown newcomers at prices of $100.00 and
more. (And in many cases they are actually steps backward rather than improvements, employing ideas
that I discarded because they didn't meet the requirements of real-life performing.)
It's not at all unusual here to see someone introduce himself here as a complete beginner and less than
a few months later, with a very limited background in either performing or researching and writing, he's
selling eBooks of "original" material.
Such is life in these days of instant self-publishing and self-created internet "fame."
Good thoughts,
Bob
Message:
Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 16, 2013 7:29pm)
I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when I see threads like this, my
built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I
get this off my chest:
My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in each book is a 'worker' holding
a spot in a thoroughly scripted, choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major
corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of guests from all over the
world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts and offer the finished product to the mentalism
community as examples of how a successful act might be constructed to flow well.
To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is that the books are underpriced.
Go figure.
Thanks,
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Mick
Message:
Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide react... :)
rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a thread :)
Message:
[quote]
On 2013-03-16 19:37, THB wrote:
Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide react... :)
rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a thread :)
[/quote]
I'm not hiding anything either... :eek:
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 19:29, Mick Ayres wrote:

I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when
I see threads like this, my built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be
one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I get this off my
chest:
My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in
each book is a 'worker' holding a spot in a thoroughly scripted,
choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major
corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of
guests from all over the world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts
and offer the finished product to the mentalism community as examples of
how a successful act might be constructed to flow well.
To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is
that the books are underpriced. Go figure.
Thanks,
Mick
No, Mick. Not referring to you at all. You are better known and more well respected as a creator and
performer than you think!
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 19:46, Tony Iacoviello wrote:

Quote:
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
On 2013-03-16 19:37, THB wrote:

Its funny how only those that have nothing to hide
react... :)
rick, bob and mick one after the other, what a
thread :)
I'm not hiding anything either... :eek:
Sorry tony, didn't mean to offend you :) and there is plenty other I didn't mean to offend either :)
Message:
Thanks for the kind, encouraging words, gentlemen. My 'built-in paranoia' is that nasty little imp all
performers carry deep in their belly that never stops whispering, "You're not as good as you
think...maybe today they pull the carpet out from under you." Stuff like that. :)
Message:
Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 16, 2013 9:43pm)
Nice thread to start,Mike!

It is wonderful to see the 'Step up Guys', post on this thread! :)
None,of the questionable creators,have made it here!
Gary
Message:
Posted by: JanForster (Mar 16, 2013 9:54pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 21:43, Godzilla wrote:

:) what says enough... Jan

Message:
Well, guess we know the creators who play in the price points (and above) listed ....
Message:
Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy anyone too much!
Message:
Quote:
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
On 2013-03-16 17:49, Rick Maue wrote:

I was told by several young mentalists that I should follow their lead and
sell my ebook, The Road, for a couple hundred bucks. After all, it includes a
number of my signature pieces from my actual stage act. They insisted that
the material had to have a high price.
And so, to this day, The Road sells for $22.
And my other ebook, Digital Deception, has other signature pieces (The
Journey & Imagine), and the same high-priced suggestion from other
mentalists resulted in that release coming out at $25.
Each creator has to do what is best for them. To me, such high prices
simply don't fit who I am.
Keep the change,
Rick
Don't forget he book of haunted magic - a true gem with gold methods....$35!!!!!!
Message:
Quote:

I'm not well-known within the conjuring or mentalism communities so when
I see threads like this, my built-in paranoia makes me wonder if I might be
one of the guys being discussed. So pardon me while I get this off my
chest:
My Act-Series books sell in the neighborhood of $35 each. Every effect in
each book is a 'worker' holding a spot in a thoroughly scripted,
choreographed and bookended mentalism act that was sold to a major
corporation and has been given hundreds of performances for thousands of
guests from all over the world. Then, after a year or two, I 'retire' the acts
and offer the finished product to the mentalism community as examples of
how a successful act might be constructed to flow well.
To this day, the only consistent criticism I receive about the Act-Series is
that the books are underpriced. Go figure.
Thanks,
Mick
Sorry - your stuff pretty much works 99% of the time having bought them all and used it - doesn't fall
into mikes desc of what is being talked about.
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote:

Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy
anyone too much!
I think he's after some killer sharks or larger...

Although some small fries produce so many ebooks full of crap it's like a school of piranhas unleashed
(nb: not talking about you iain)
So, I guess this thread we are after moby dick???? Aye....
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote:

Don't forget us small-fry that just try and do the right thing and not annoy
anyone too much!
How can we forget you, Iain? You've put out a lot of very worthwhile and workable material and have a
great future in this biz.
And you're not THAT annoying.
:eek:
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-16 22:35, mastermindreader wrote:

And you're not THAT annoying.
:eek:
I need to up my game on that then!

and thank you kindly, bob...(and for your help whenever I bother you)
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
Here is another person I believe this thread is not about... Patrick Redford - who constantly produces
some of the most amazing material that works!!!! His books and items are in the $50 zone and are
innovative, fun, and cover material over books sometimes 10 times or more in cost fumble with.
In fact, prevaricator is a classic - something he worked on for years and some people came along and
put it in their own materials without proper crediting.... I recall some crazy backwards situation where
patrick was threatened legally over his an work!!!!
Guess some of the people mike is referring too do need some material that is sure fire... And get it in
many ways... Not necessarily from their own creative realm.
Anyway, figured I'd do a salute to mr Redford!
Hey tony - I don't think they mean you either... You produced such wonderful things for less than $20
(audience selection opener is my fav) and have been ripped off in so many ways by so many people, for
their own releases its sick.
.... Hmmmm....
Message:
Posted by: JohnWells (Mar 16, 2013 11:13pm)
I've had this conversation with several people lately. Some of them small fries like me (Iain is not a small
anything btw, and I'm gratefull for the chance to ride his coattails on occasion), and some luminaries in
the field. What astounds me is the public back-scratching met with private "can you believe he wanted
that much for that junk".
Message:
Ha!
I recently got a effect from Dr Spektor,cost me zero dollar!
Can be done for under a buck,and is fun to do! :)
Tony,has been a great help to me in the past also!
John,has been there too!
You can not put a price,on the helpfulness of some here on Caf!
Gary
Message:
Posted by: Withnail (Mar 17, 2013 6:48am)
Iain, You beat me to the punch!

I highly rate all your stuff I've bought and that's not hype, that's truth!
This may seem odd, considering I'm angry with the whole Scryer deal being posted about elsewhere,
but, regarding Mike's op, maybe people spend a fortune on new books and, if they realise they actually
aren't 'all that', then they self-perpetuate the hype in the hope of ramping up the price.
I don't mind 'good' books being expensive and value for money - I have Andy N's hardback when I could
have bought most of the separate effects for half the price. Was it VFM? Yes, because I use the effects
from it to close gig deals with, so it's already paid for itself.
But I've spent too much on dross because I've been sucked in by hype and realistically, I'm at the point
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now where I don't think I really need any more books.

I read somewhere that instead of looking for the next latest and greatest, why not go back through the
old classics and turn to a page which hasn't been used by anyone else. Look through The Jinx, or
Stunners or MIND, or Artful and find something obscure, learn it, then put your own stamp on it.
Just a snack for thought... :)
Message:
Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 7:56am)
Quote:

Gary
my point exactly, you put it a lot better than I did.

Message:
Posted by: Steve Suss (Mar 17, 2013 9:35am)
Mike, this is a great thread. I think that too many people are looking for shortcuts and they think that if
they purchase the next best thing it will make them famous. Of course, the more expensive this thing is
the better it will be. They fail to realize that the magic is not the next best thing but it is in the performer
themselves. They never fully realize their potential because they're constantly changing their effects
rather than developing them and molding them so they maximize their effectiveness in actual
performance.
I remember listening to a Cassidy Teleseminar a couple of years ago when Michael Weber quoted
someone as saying that it takes about 10 years to truly understand an effect. I could not agree more.
Yes, I will continue trying out new ideas In an effort to improve my performances but the bulk of my
practice time is developing the act that I already have. I work on little performance details that add up to
make a positive improvement. I don't expect a $300 manuscript is going to improve my show. Not
without the many years of practice I've devoted to classics that have worked so well for so many
performers before.
Steve
Message:
Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:24am)
Ok, now that I did a Redford tribute... Time to do a dr bill tribute!!!!

DR BILL
Dr bill is clearly someone who produces no ebook before its time. His ebooks are priced again affordably
and do not contain tons of fluff... They are lean and very clearly written. From key bends to magic
squares... His material works and is powerful - as noted by so many pros who use it including tv specials.
He is honest enough to buy ads on the mc unlike many, and he is well regarded as an honest bloke and
helpful and likes to continue discussions beyond a book.
I do not believe he is part of the group under scrutiny this thread is targeting.
Message:
Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 17, 2013 10:25am)

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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Quote:

Gary
True. The creators who have commented here are all careful about what they release and I've been
happy with what I've received from them. I don't thing I've ever bought any material from Mick but for
years I've heard praise about his material from a trusted friend (and I know Mick is a real performer).
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 09:35, Steve Suss wrote:

Mike, this is a great thread. I think that too many people are looking for
shortcuts and they think that if they purchase the next best thing it will
make them famous. Of course, the more expensive this thing is the better it
will be. They fail to realize that the magic is not the next best thing but it is
in the performer themselves. They never fully realize their potential because
they're constantly changing their effects rather than developing them and
molding them so they maximize their effectiveness in actual performance.
I remember listening to a Cassidy Teleseminar a couple of years ago when
Michael Weber quoted someone as saying that it takes about 10 years to
truly understand an effect. I could not agree more. Yes, I will continue
trying out new ideas In an effort to improve my performances but the bulk
of my practice time is developing the act that I already have. I work on little
performance details that add up to make a positive improvement. I don't
expect a $300 manuscript is going to improve my show. Not without the
many years of practice I've devoted to classics that have worked so well for
so many performers before.
Steve
Well said, Steve.

Message:
Posted by: DT3 (Mar 17, 2013 10:31am)
Not to go dissing on him when he hasn't even commented on this thread but Sean Waters also charges
WAY too little for his work.
As do the rest of you fine gentlemen.
Message:
Posted by: Withnail (Mar 17, 2013 11:21am)
Combine customer service in with product and anything from scott Grossberg too :)
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Message:
Then there is the wonderful

John Riggs
I consider him one of the greatest unsung heroes of mentalism
His books and DVDs are truly fat free - are way underpriced compared to the crap we are talking about and I've found his material
Works and works so well many of his routines are part of my core working sets for presentations
(modified for my style natch)
I believe he has been ripped off as much as Bruce Bernstein )a lot
Riggs I support to the point I just buy anything he puts out as he has established himself as someone
who cares about his work and relationships with people lucky enough to connect with him
Ugh the more I think of the good guys the more I want to vomit thinking of the others
P.s. don't own any Sean waters works but what I've observed is that he contributed wonderfully on
forums
Doesn't constantly market his work with every post, doesn't say it will start a religion and priced as the
other folk I praise
So seems he is also someone this thread is not about!!! (Reviews of the work demo he cares about real
working material too$
Who also is not what this thread is about???? Hmmmmm
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 10:31, DT3 wrote:

Not to go dissing on him when he hasn't even commented on this thread
but Sean Waters also charges WAY too little for his work.
As do the rest of you fine gentlemen.
You included. I remember Tear for twenty bucks - a set of great routines that you did follow up on...
Class act sir
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 11:21, Withnail wrote:

Combine customer service in with product and anything from scott
Grossberg too :)
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
And I concur greatly - once I bought bauta ( which changed my whole style of reading and got me
appreciating systems vs cold reading alone) I went and got everything I could of his. Bauta with the
extra CDs is an example of value plus he does share via e discussion great insights - truly a role model
too
His work is not the high priced no worker material this thread is targeting either I believe
Message:
Posted by: WDavis (Mar 17, 2013 2:32pm)
Bruce,
The king in yellow smiles with how you conduct yourself. It is ironic how in a thread of no clothes we
start speaking of the well dressed...
The caf seems to be rife with strife, so back to the shadows I go...
Walter
Message:
Thanks walter!!!
Some think I am an illiterate hack with secret agendas hiding behind a pseudonym to caus evil - I am
Happy you see my differently :)
By the way for all - Walter you don't see much here buy has produced many a fine product such as a
nifty wallet, bloody good cries, and a slew of other innovative inventions
I have seen him participate and share with others too - and the fact he isn't screaming about his product
every post again puts him in the category of trusted creators (in my book at least) who cares about the
art
Disclaimer - Walter said something nice about me and it may be seen as influencing my post but I say
others can attest to the veracity of my claims regarding Walter !!!)
Message:
I shall so attest. What you've said about Walter is true.

Message:
Quote:

I shall so attest. What you've said about Walter is true.
Glad we agree on something!!!

Message:
Lol, see there is some common ground. :)

To quote the 21st century's greatest diplomat, "Kim likes basketball, Obama likes basketball. They have
common ground and we can build from there.". Dennis Rodman
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Message:
Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 17, 2013 4:06pm)
This thread makes a pleasant change from the other one.

Steve
Message:
Yes, Steve, it does.

Message:
Posted by: parmenion (Mar 17, 2013 4:37pm)
As many here I bought some very expensive ebook and I'll not do it anymore.
I think it's part of a process to become a better performer I think to buy expensives things where at last
you don't find anything useful inside but you hope you'll find something in the next one.
I've nothing against people sell their ebook very high, because I bought some(a lot) myself, lol
They don't force you to buy it, the problem is when they sell-it as limited edition or worses when you
read in the next one of the expensives book you bought an expanded version of something you already
have in an older one... You feel cheated.
Anyway, it's the games, you know when you grow-up when you don't buy them anymore .-)
Message:
The nice thing is that you bought and paid (for it) and I read it :) ... I will miss it - whenever I can :). Jan
Message:
Posted by: takeachance (Mar 17, 2013 5:10pm)
So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with the advertizing BS tauting it to
be an absolute miricle or those who endorse it after getting positive reviews on their own work from
them. There seems to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Caf that lower your guard on these
expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not talking about $10-$50 price range here
but more like $100-$300. The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.
Message:
Posted by: Anthony Black (Mar 17, 2013 5:18pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 17:10, takeachance wrote:

The blurb for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page
days.
They were cheaper ;)
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Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 16:47, JanForster wrote:

The nice thing is that you bought and paid (for it) and I read it :) ... I will
miss it - whenever I can :). Jan
lol
Message:
Quote:

So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with
the advertizing BS tauting it to be an absolute miricle or those who endorse
it after getting positive reviews on their own work from them. There seems
to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Caf that lower your guard
on these expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not
talking about $10-$50 price range here but more like $100-$300. The blurb
for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.
its a difficult one, if you ever release material then you will probably want people to check over it - and
so you send it to people you admire, respect, TRUST to be honest in return, that kinda thing...
sometimes you end up becoming friends with them, which is a fantastic bonus.... its also the frustrating
part when people automatically assume that just because you have become friends, that its PURELY
hyped feedback...when you know that it isn't...but maybe its not worth the arguing to make your point
clear...
so, I am very lucky to have john riggs as a friend, bob cassidy, jerome, neal scryer, thomas and rainer,
the voodini and a few others - ...those people who will always have far more chops, experience, ability
and so on...but they weren't friends at the start - its a slow organic thing as all friendships are - but I
bothered most of those people in some way - a question for research purposes, a question about
something they released, and it becomes a little more personal and personable along the way...then you
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ask the BIG question "if its ok, could I please send you something of mine for your opinion please? I
know you're busy, or you might just not want to...i understand! thanks for your time regardless - its
appreciated."
and then you get feedback! be it good, bad or indifferent, and it goes from there...its not JUST any ONE
thing, but an organic process...and just because a friend might chip in with something nice to say, it
doesn't mean they are playing a game with the rest of the people reading it...i know it happens some
times, but its defintely not all the time!
and then there's people you become friends with via these kinds of places that are going through the
same things as you are - who work hard, are honest, love mentalism, treasure it, do all the good stuff!
and you share with them too, talk about stuff you find tough, talk about all kinds of things - and
sometimes they are ahead of you, and you love seeing them run with it... and all things in between! who
isn't protective, encouraging, helpful, HONEST with the people they call friends?! well...actually - that
happens too doesn't it...unrealistic of me to say otherwise, but what I'm getting at is, it is frustrating
that something is labelled as hype when its not...
I could put up a good list of stuff I'd either bought from friends, or been given as gifts from friends - and
every thing I say about those items would be true and honest...if I am behind a product I will say so
honestly...never done otherwise..
it is a weird and interesting line though...and others perceptions of some comments are interesting and
infuriating in equal measure...
Message:
Quote:

Yes, Steve, it does.
Although I contributed to the fracas on the other thread, I believe I did so in a fair and honest manner.
And I believe no one, however big a name they are, should be untouchable.
Steve
Message:
Quote:

So what's worse, the guy selling the way overpriced e-book or book with
the advertizing BS tauting it to be an absolute miricle or those who endorse
it after getting positive reviews on their own work from them. There seems
to be a definate circle of reviewers here on the Caf that lower your guard
on these expensive publications that are at best mediocre. And we are not
talking about $10-$50 price range here but more like $100-$300. The blurb
for some of these remind me of the old comic book back page days.
Page 15 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
There have been some going at more than a thousand $ The blurb said it was to keep it only in the "real"
professional hands. I hope thes " real" professional got waht they paid for...
No book goes for those prices in my "real" job...
But then again, if people are willing to pay, why should there be nobody to sell them what they want, its
all about being an educated purchaser. And education sometimes comes at aprice...
Message:
Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 17, 2013 6:57pm)
Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by guru attitude and over priced ebooks" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to
buy what we might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices of Bob Cassidly
and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :)
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 18:57, Fred Darevil wrote:

Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by
guru attitude and over priced e-books" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not
have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to buy what we
might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices
of Bob Cassidly and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :)
:) you naughty
Message:
...edit...
Message:
Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 17, 2013 7:22pm)
Quote:

Anyone to add Jerome Finley on this charming "who is not concerned by
guru attitude and over priced e-books" list ? I can't do it myself as I do not
have any of his book and still hesitate to sell one kidney to buy what we
might considerer as super-super master mentalist books considering prices
of Bob Cassidly and other "simple" master mentalists books ! :)
TOO CUTE!
;)
Page 16 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Big hugs,
Jerome
Message:
Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Mar 17, 2013 7:32pm)
Stephen Young wrote:

Although I contributed to the fracas on the other thread, I believe I did so in a fair and honest manner.
And I believe no one, however big a name they are, should be untouchable.
Steve
[/quote]
I completely concur with this.
Robert.
Message:
Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 17, 2013 7:50pm)
Nice thread, I may come back!

Message:
Posted by: ddyment (Mar 17, 2013 8:17pm)
A strongly related topic to this ran in "Inner Thoughts" a while back. As not everyone is capable of
reading that forum, I'll repost my own comments here ...
While I certainly recognize the issue here, it seems that many of the practical concerns (from the
consumer perspective) can be alleviated simply by letting someone else do your due diligence for you.
There's no credible need to be among the first buyers of any new product. And most vendors provide at
least some limited endorsements/reviews/whatever for their offerings. So wait until these appear, pick
out a name or two that you know and trust, and contact them directly with your questions or concerns
about the worth of the product. And if there aren't any names that you know and trust, interpret the
situation accordingly.
In recent years, I have found that the great majority of published mentalism is little more than a rehash
of old ideas, and unworthy of the prices being charged. But I have few purchasing regrets, because I
generally check first with a knowledgeable friend or two before forking out any money. And I usually
hear that "It's the old xxx method, recycled yet again!"
Speaking as an author, I would never dream of putting out a product without first exposing it to a few
knowledgeable friends for feedback, not just for originality of ideas, but quality of presentation and
clarity of explanation. And those folks who don't have any sufficiently knowledgeable friends (or any over
the age of fifty) probably shouldn't be putting out products for sale anyway!
Finally (and I have offered this observation previously), one's description of an effect or methodology
should always include a description of why it is being published ... why it is better than what's already
out there ... what feature(s) it offers that are otherwise unavailable. Doing the groundwork to answer
these kinds of questions will generally give one a good indication as to whether or not a given idea truly
breaks new ground (and is thus worthy of publication, and the investment of other people's money).
Message:
Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled his last name wrong). Two very smart gentlemen who
need to be mentioned on this thread.
Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his material is different, detailed and way outside the box.
Page 17 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Mick
Message:
Quote:

Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled his last name wrong). Two
very smart gentlemen who need to be mentioned on this thread.
Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his material is different,
detailed and way outside the box.
Mick
I also agree on greg and Paolo... Disclaimer - I've been on projects with them both - their material was
commercial, utilitarian and fun.
I miss Paolo - he sold his materials at the less than $50 for most of his works. In fact, one book he and I
did all proceeds went to charity - international children's wish fund (flytrap).... And yet, the fellow isn't
around much anymore for reasons I will not disclose... But I wish we all paid him way more for his
works, his stuff really did work - and he was collaborative as all hell - and one of my early mentors when
I got serious about the art of mystery entertainment.
Man, I wish he was back.
Ryan frame don't know his work yet... Where do we look for it?
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 16:06, Stephen Young wrote:

This thread makes a pleasant change from the other one.
Steve
I hope it stays so... I notice the other thread winding downand shadows have snuck in here... Lets hope
we all remain civil. I plan to.
Message:
As no one mentioned him yet.....

BANACHEK
Page 18 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
psychological subtlety series, DVDs and a slew of other things reasonable priced. One of the major metal
benders too.... Yet often seems not mentioned around here... But think when you made your first Tyne
bend.... Or that first quarter... Maybe it was because of his instructions you first read some cool things...
The fellow still appears here time to time to share wisdom freely.
Message:
How about....
MAX MAVEN?
Prism series - and a gazillion other releases... Has helped many with researching effects. Not sure if he is
here under a pseudonym or not.... But if you think mentalism hasn't been touched by this fellow... I
dunno. His works are things to study along with his original work on equivoque
Message:
And lest we ever forget... The legendary creator of the SWITCHCRAFT project
ELLIOT BRESSLER
who despite the option to up a price for charge for supplements has create IMHO a mythic level living
document on billet work in a way that challenges all to dare follow...
Plus a nice and modest guy too who is a regular of this place and shares in discussion.
No way he is what this thread is about surely!!!!!!'
Message:
Posted by: Patrick Redford (Mar 17, 2013 10:47pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-17 22:00, Dr Spektor wrote:

Quote:

Greg Arce...and Paolo Cavielli (I probably spelled
his last name wrong). Two very smart gentlemen
who need to be mentioned on this thread.
Also, keep an eye out for Ryan Frame, guys...his
material is different, detailed and way outside the
box.
Mick
I also agree on greg and Paolo... Disclaimer - I've been on projects with
them both - their material was commercial, utilitarian and fun.
I miss Paolo - he sold his materials at the less than $50 for most of his
Page 19 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
works. In fact, one book he and I did all proceeds went to charity international children's wish fund (flytrap).... And yet, the fellow isn't
around much anymore for reasons I will not disclose... But I wish we all
paid him way more for his works, his stuff really did work - and he was
collaborative as all hell - and one of my early mentors when I got serious
about the art of mystery entertainment.
Man, I wish he was back.
Ryan frame don't know his work yet... Where do we look for it?
Ryan Frame had some great additions to Prevaricator! You may find his thinking in both the booklet pdf
that you can find on the DVD and on the video itself. Exciting news that he's going to be releasing some
work!
Thanks for your very kind comments above earlier in this thread as well. Very kind of you.
Message:
Doh - thanks patrick - I knew I heard it somewhere... Time for me to review prev. DVD!!!!
And no thanks needed - just stating my humble opinion!!!!!
Message:
Posted by: Fred Darevil (Mar 18, 2013 2:46am)
Jerome : cute isn't it ? ;)

"No one should be untouchable" : this is one of the most important idea shared on this thread by one of
us. So powerful however that once being said and approved by a few other, nobody dares to name these
"untouchables" suggested by the very first message of this topic. Who want to be isolated, taking the
risk to be the guy who said bad things about bigger names than him ? Cialdini has very well analyzed the
authority principle. Same thing about social proof principle : "what do and say other ? Who I am to
disapprove ?". The worst situation is when you are an author yourself. Another principle is in action :
reciprocity.
Transforming this thread in a "good guys" list is elegant and a charming opportunity for fraternal
congratulations and maybe a little bit of... redemption ? ;)
Hopefully there will always be one or two free electrons to speak from their heart, braving the always
possible collective punishment ! :)
Message:
Posted by: Jerome Finley (Mar 18, 2013 3:19am)
Quote:

Jerome : cute isn't it ? ;)
"No one should be untouchable" : this is one of the most important idea
shared on this thread by one of us. So powerful however that once being
Page 20 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
said and approved by a few other, nobody dares to name these

"untouchables" suggested by the very first message of this topic. Who want
to be isolated, taking the risk to be the guy who said bad things about
bigger names than him ? Cialdini has very well analyzed the authority
principle. Same thing about social proof principle : "what do and say other ?
Who I am to disapprove ?". The worst situation is when you are an author
yourself. Another principle is in action : reciprocity.
Transforming this thread in a "good guys" list is elegant and a charming
opportunity for fraternal congratulations and maybe a little bit of...
redemption ? ;)
Hopefully there will always be one or two free electrons to speak from their
heart, braving the always possible collective punishment ! :)
Nobody is "untouchable", I agree.

That said, I'll gladly throw down with ANYONE chiming in on this thread *AND/OR* mentioned in this
thread; I don't care who it is, where they're from or what they do.
GOT SKILLS?
Bring them to me and I'll !@#$%^& show you and your little "dragon cards" what's up...GUARANTEED.
If you want to get "huffy", by all means, let's go. Me + YOU + "lay audience" = FORGET YOUR CAREER
AND YOUR HOBBY.
;)
We can be petty together. I'm not hard to find...you called me out?
JF.
Message:
Johnny Doyle:
"Oh, did I stutter?
Everybody gone all quiet and ****?
About a minute ago it was like an evening at the Apollo up in this !@#$%^&, now all of a sudden it's
quiet as a church."
;)
Message:
Fred,
You log on, you log off...
Page 21 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Pansy !@#$%.
Message:
Posted by: Stephen Young (Mar 18, 2013 4:41am)
When I went to bed this thread was pretty nice.

Not sure what happened overnight.
Steve
Message:
Woawww !..
What a powerful demonstration of strength and energy !!! At first, I tought I was just cute. But now I
feel like a not so unsignificant prey. Thank you my lord. After all, big wild animals, lords of savanna,
never show their lethal fangs unless they feel in danger. Are you in danger ? Have you overestimate my
previous joke ? Or, are you not a lord of savanna ? No. I'm sure it's just a demonstration of The
Impenetrable Mind of God(Romans 11:33-36)which,of course, I can't understand.
Remember, I'm no body. Don't be afraid, ignore me. There is no hidden part of an iceberg under my feet
: I have only ridiculous dragon cards in hands, nothing more.
I do agree with you however : nobody is untouchable. Nobody. That's why, poor little monkey I am, feel
free to kick the ass of her majesty the tiger if I feel it's a good thing for freedom of expression. But you
are not concerned, even if no body put your name on the above list. Just an omission. And your message
is surely not a warning indirectly adressed to all of us who might have in mind now or later to critic your
e-books.
------Of course, it's just a joke. A game of words,isn't it ? :)
Best,
Fred
Ps : my audience is not interested by a gladiator's fight, a testosterone demonstration. They want artists.
Nothing more.
Message:
Quote:

When I went to bed this thread was pretty nice.
Not sure what happened overnight.
Steve
Go back to bed.
Message:
I didn't think this thread was about the level of a person's performance (either in isolation or compared
to other's)
Page 22 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
But about the value (perceived or real) of work that they put out.
Steve
Message:
Going back to bed is tempting. :)

steve
Message:
Ps1 : "pansy" ? A new word added to my english vocabulary. Not sure I'll use it, however. Not my style.
J ? you logg off ? What a little "pansy" you are ! :) After all, this word is quite funny, isn't it ?
You are so predictable my friend. Take no offense but I was waiting for another message from you after
your "so cute" first message. It was too cute for such a warrior ;)
Do you realise that my 400th message on this forum is adressed to you ? Hmm. 400 only. I'm definitely
insignificant.
------To the "nice authors list" I would add Eugene Burger. He's not a mentalist but his deep thought
transcend all our arts.
Message:
Quote:

Woawww !..
What a powerful demonstration of strength and energy !!! At first, I tought I
was just cute. But now I feel like a not so unsignificant prey. Thank you my
lord. After all, big wild animals, lords of savanna, never show their lethal
fangs unless they feel in danger. Are you in danger ? Have you
overestimate my previous joke ? Or, are you not a lord of savanna ? No. I'm
sure it's just a demonstration of The Impenetrable Mind of God(Romans
11:33-36)which,of course, I can't understand.
Remember, I'm no body. Don't be afraid, ignore me. There is no hidden part
of an iceberg under my feet : I have only ridiculous dragon cards in hands,
nothing more.
I do agree with you however : nobody is untouchable. Nobody. That's why,
poor little monkey I am, feel free to kick the ass of her majesty the tiger if I
feel it's a good thing for freedom of expression. But you are not concerned,
even if no body put your name on the above list. Just an omission. And your
message is surely not a warning indirectly adressed to all of us who might
have in mind now or later to critic your e-books.
------Of course, it's just a joke. A game of words,isn't it ? :)
Page 23 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Best,
Fred
Ps : my audience is not interested by a gladiator's fight, a testosterone
demonstration. They want artists. Nothing more.
Never mind...you're cute again!

Awwww,
JF.
Message:
[quote]
Ps1 : "pansy" ? A new word added to my english vocabulary. Not sure I'll use it, however. Not my style.
J ? you logg off ? What a little "pansy" you are ! :) After all, this word is quite funny, isn't it ?
You are so predictable my friend. Take no offense but I was waiting for another message from you after
your "so cute" first message. It was too cute for such a warrior ;)
Do you realise that my 400th message on this forum is adressed to you ? Hmm. 400 only. I'm definitely
insignificant.
------Agreed.
Message:
Posted by: kambiz (Mar 18, 2013 5:08am)
Now I am in no way a Jerome "worshipper", you can slay him as much as you like Fred, but I will go on
record to say this.
The 2 most potent effects I ALWAYS go to without fail are Jerome's Energetic Touches and his Inyaga
spoon bend. Yes, I've spent a large amount of dollars on his works, but both of these effects can be done
any moment you like, instantly.....for real....and that gives it potency, happy to have paid....
I think this thread is unfair if it is targetting Jerome in any way, simply because no-one obviously has
taken the time to learn some of Jerome's material. I know several people that would never forgo True
Telepathy from their act. Some of the effects in Thought Veil are "unbelievable" and prop-free totally.
I would think again, from an unbiased observer
Kam
Message:
Thanks, Kam!
Your words, use of my material, praise and years long friendship will not go unnoticed.
That said, YET AGAIN, if anyone in this thread...especially Fred Darevil...and including my established
Page 24 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
and posting friends/peers/comrades...ANYONE that wants to place themselves and their material up
against me and mine...I'm not hard to find.
I have 50,000.00 USD I can lose, and I would relish in the opportunity. I have more. Much more.
BRING YOUR SKILLS.
Put up or shut up.
I'll "single out" anyone and everyone. I don't care who it is, where they're from or what they do. I WANT
YOU TO BRING YOUR BEST, including you, Fred Darevil.
*Any lay audience* (AKA not comprised or composed of your moms, dads, friends, family members and
peers...mostly because I would win by sheer numbers alone!)...
* ANYWHERE in the world. I buy my own ticket!
* You can do whatever you want.
*Choose the number of people you wish in attendance...1-10,000...it doesn't matter to me.
GOOD LUCK!
Be big...don't be a pansy, ya?
JF.
Message:
I can show and prove funds immediately.

Let's go.
Message:
And another thread goes south.

Message:
You too.
I'm sick and tired of people talking **** on these boards and forums.
Put up, or S.T.F.U!
Message:
Posted by: kambiz (Mar 18, 2013 5:41am)
Its not that it went south Stephen.

I personally think that any thread that directly or indirectly targets any individual has gone south long
before that said individual starts to defend him or herself.
This whole thread has "bad feeling" written all over it....why are you surprised its gone the direction its
taken?
I know Mike may not have intended this direction with the thread, but all of Jerome's material is
workable if given the right context and thrashed out properly. Surely, naming EVERY perfiormer and
creator other than Jerome is a horrible, inhumane thing to do towards someone who has helped many
Page 25 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
performers throughout the world, maybe not you, but many others.....
Its important to change our frame of reference when we purchase material that doesn't work for us...
Kam
Message:
I don't know if I'm included in that last statement Jerome.

I hope I'm not talking ****.
I'm just trying to understand why the thread went the way it did.
The thread started off as going down the road of listing people who one, some or all, thought produced
value for money products.
I think I originally posted the notion that nobody should be untouchable. I had no one particular in mind
at the time.
Nobody likes criticism of course,but I didn't read anyone criticising you as a performer.
I don't think you have anything to prove.
Steve
Message:
Posted by: MatCult (Mar 18, 2013 5:47am)
Edit.
Message:
Kambiz posted as I was typing.

I am not surprised actually, just disappointed.
And the going south statement was not directed at Jerome just the state of the way threads go here in
general.
I'm sure there are performers who find effects from unknown creators to be diamonds while some things
from superstars to be unworkable, FOR THEM.
It's all subjective.
And maybe this thread was always going to end like this.
Someone leaves out a name that others think should bi included.
Some one includes a name that others think shouldn't be there.
I just get upset when people get angry with each other (and I'm no angel in that regard, just ask Mr
Cassidy)
But I do try to be as fair and honest as I can in my posts.
I hope others do the same.
steve
Message:
Stephen,
Are you posting in this thread?
Page 26 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
YOU'RE FAIR GAME TO ME!

I respect you, man...but to say this thread "went south" after my post and not the TOTALLY IGNORANT
initial message from WTF-ever his name is, is just absurd.
My offer stands.
JF.
Message:
Posted by: Voodini (Mar 18, 2013 5:58am)
I've been lambasted for selling too cheaply, lambasted for being too expensive. Lambasted for offering
deals, lambasted for not offering deals. It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.
Except for Lola.
Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola.
Message:
And yeah...the Caf ****ing sucks these days, but we all already knew that.
Message:
I didn't see it as absurd.

Maybe I'll go read the whole thread again but I read the post you refer to as a criticism of the value of
things you have sold not your performing abilities.
That is completely subjective he is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else.
I'm not taking sides, I don't know any of you.
My "thread going south" comment was an edit actually. I first typed "this thread has turned into a my
****is bigger than yours exercise" but decided to alter it.
The fact that it came directly after your post does not mean it was only related to that post.
Think of me as fair game if you wish. I know I am nowhere near the performer that you or a lot of people
on here are.
I'm not attacking you or anybody.
steve
Message:
Posted by: Voodini (Mar 18, 2013 6:22am)
I should point out that my post about 'Lola' was my attempt to inject a touch of gentle humour. I should
probably have included a smiley! So here's a belated one: :)
Message:
These flaccid wannabe's have loads and LOADS to say about other people, what they do, how they think,
all they create and what they've contributed...I've seen performances from the guy who started this
thread, and I wanted to kill myself in the end.
You think because YOU DON'T KNOW what your time is worth that I'm supposed to follow suit? I get Mike
Ince, Fred Darevil and other fakes & frauds chiming in here...working their desk jobs, nothing to show for
their 3-10 months/years (if even that!) involved in the art, craft and science behind what I and others
produce and bring to the community...?
Not calling out a working man by any means...but he (and you) both cast a stone, directly or
Page 27 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
indirectly...let me hurl mine. ;)

THIS IS MY RESPONSE.
If you have a problem with me, what I charge for my life's work and material, working in the trenches,
dealt blows, suffering losses, investing more time, money and energy than you yourselves have to
spare...if you think (IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM) that you can hang or check nuts, then set it up.
Same goes for anyone reading this.
The petty bickering here and elsewhere is ridiculous. I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you
are, where you're from or what you do.
I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME SOMETHING WORTHWHILE...and I'll gladly do the same.
If you can't, then keep your stupid ****ing comments to yourself.
JF.
Message:
Quote Steve : "Nobody likes criticism of course, but I didn't read anyone criticising you as a performer.
I don't think you have anything to prove."
I knew a man during my Ericksonian Hypnosis mastering class who reacted the same way. Each time,
people said to him "You have nothing to prove". But he thought he had to. Deep inside him was the
doubt about himself. It explained his regular oversized demonstrations of his value and his inner feeling
of necessity to destroy his supposed "opponent" public image. He was a nice and clever man however.
Giants sometimes have feet of clay.
Is there any psychotherapist who never had a client like that ? Not me. That's why I'm not upset. Words
are only wind in the mouth which tell about the speaker's mind only. But, although I have empathy for
those who speak to me like if I was nothing more than a mosquito on their windshield, and despite the
fact that I respect their knowledge, I will always feel free to express my opinion with as much courtesy
and confidence I can. And a little bit of humour.
So, I confirm that independently of any knowledge of your work Jerome and in coherence with the initial
topic of this thread : when I think about guru style and high prices I think about you. I make no
confusion between behaviour and identity as any NLP Master Practitioner should understand it, you
included. But I do not like the way you communicate about your work. The way you talk to those who
bring an honnest critic here about it. The way you forget what Ericksonian and NLP philosophy is all
about when dealing with respect of interlocutors. Nothing more, nothing less. And you can call me
whenever you want as I'm not impressed and always ready to talk. Try in French my friend and we'll see
who has the last word... ;)
-----It's a nice thing to celebrate authors we do appreciate. Perhaps I missed the name of Barrie Richardson,
if not I'd like to add it on the list.
But if nobody is really untouchable, we shouldn't be afraid to say who we disapprove and why, whatever
his name is and as long as our critic is fair and honnest.
Message:
Fred,
If you should think of "little old me" as a GURU of any type, that's your doing...not mine.
Page 28 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
BTW, I don't give a **** what you like or dislike (especially with regards to me) and your weak attempts
at Ericksonian-based therapy or NLP, in any shape or form, is severely lacking and totally embarrassing.
You admit prior that you've never bought a single piece of my work, right?
JF.
Message:
Posted by: Anthony Black (Mar 18, 2013 7:10am)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Message:
I have no more time for you. I said what I had to say, nothing to add. Everyone will decide for himself
now what is embarassing or not for you and me. No resentment on my side, you are not important
enough for me for that. Speak alone if you want, enough space has been taken on this thread for our
interaction.
------------Back to the list, I propose Richard Busch.
Message:
Posted by: Christopher Gould (Mar 18, 2013 7:45am)
I think we can all draw our own conclusions from this thread can we not?
Very interesting indeed.
Message:
Critics are never popular. It's far more comfortable to be a nice guy, taking no risk. But democracy needs
criticism to be democratic. There are only two people on The Caf I publicly disapproved : Slim King and
Jerome Finley. And I thanked and congratulated many others.
One last thing : I checked and remembered that I bought RAOK in april 2008. If I remember well, I had
a different opinion about what kindness is, but found interesting ideas for those who know nothing about
Ericksonian Hypnosis.
Page 29 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Bye.
Message:
Posted by: Al Straker (Mar 18, 2013 7:59am)
Please please please please please show love and respect for each other as we are all 'doing our thing'
participating in the artistic pursuit we all love, this crazy thing we call mentalism. Yes we all do this a
little differently, but I fail to see the need for harsh judgement of each others efforts where
encouragement and reasonable (ie: helpful and sensitive) criticism would surely be far more conducive to
advancing the art through elevation of the brave souls who dare to participate.
We are all passionate about what we do, why the need to judge and criticise those around us? Surely
many of us who really do like to pursue the truth instinctively feel this negative energy cannot be good
for either our beloved art or any of us as it's exponents.
Peace to all, may happy, constructive thoughts return to Penny's.
Message:
Agree totally about the names given here. All workers who have contributed their lives and soul to our
art. Did anyone mention Doc Hilford here?
Message:
Posted by: StJohn (Mar 18, 2013 8:30am)
CarlZen wrote:
Every day is controversy here you are supposed to help people not bad mouth them.
- The controversy is because of hyping. Carl can you truthful say you never hyped your friends books?
Best thing is for all of you don't but anything no one is pulling your arm don't buy anything period.
- Not buying is a childish thing to say. If they don't like what your friends do they should not buy
anything? Please spare me.
it's the same old group that all they do is cause trouble.
- It is the same old group that support each other with hype. You and the others over at a special place
you keep mentioning where we cant see what your planning next. If people here have a problem with
that they are wrong?
I am out of here forever much better places than here that conduct themselves properly.
- You are gone forever? You say that nearly everytime you post! :) See you again soon I think.
Jerome see you in other home.
- The other home? Is this the secret forum where you will now plan your next hype? Yes it is!
Message:
Good morning!
The Aston I was quiet was I actually went to sleep and got up....
First off, I want to pat myself on the back for predicting this would happen!!!! See my earlier posts!!!!
Huzzah!!!!
Next, as I tie into my next post - to try to prevent what just happened above.... I tried to demonstrate to
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
a great colleague how to try to do if you got nothing good to say in public say nothing at all and indeed
try to start listing and praising heroes of mine of the $150 selling point to keep with the topic and make
this about feeling good.
Jerome's work I do not have so I cannot comment.... I do have one he sent me years ago called acts of
random kindness which had workable material. I do own own the more expensive items.... However...
JEROME!!!! A plea!!!' Even under attack by others, don't descend into personal vitriolic swearing and so
on.... It cannot help but make you look bad. IMHO - but it's up to you...
Ok... Back to my usual installments - who talks about their grandmother and actually works it into a
routine? Thomas!!!! And might as well add in Rainer as they are a team of collaborator extraordinaire
!!!!!
PARALABS!!'mm
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=399281&forum=15
I own most of their works and they are spectacular. My favourite is their lecture notes which look - nay is a slick produced manual... Edited and made through love and time and less than the price we are
talking about.
Paralogue modified (which I've told Thomas about many a time) is often my stage presentation
opener.... That is so powerful it lows things out of the water from many other materials I have.... I've
been able to tie it into my favourite theme of showing people they are walking programmable androids :)
hee hee
Thomas and Rainer often contribute here... And have NEVER said a negative thing (I believe) in a public
forum about anyone.
True gentlemen of the highest caliber and I hope to meet them some day!!!!
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 08:19, Christopher Gould wrote:

Agree totally about the names given here. All workers who have contributed
their lives and soul to our art. Did anyone mention Doc Hilford here?
I didn't get to him yet - but Chris - go for it!!!!

Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 08:30, StJohn wrote:

CarlZen wrote:
Every day is controversy here you are supposed to help people not bad
Page 31 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
mouth them.
- The controversy is because of hyping. Carl can you truthful say you never
hyped your friends books?
Best thing is for all of you don't but anything no one is pulling your arm
don't buy anything period.
- Not buying is a childish thing to say. If they don't like what your friends do
they should not buy anything? Please spare me.
it's the same old group that all they do is cause trouble.
- It is the same old group that support each other with hype. You and the
others over at a special place you keep mentioning where we cant see what
your planning next. If people here have a problem with that they are
wrong?
I am out of here forever much better places than here that conduct
themselves properly.
- You are gone forever? You say that nearly everytime you post! :) See you
again soon I think.
Jerome see you in other home.
- The other home? Is this the secret forum where you will now plan your
next hype? Yes it is!
Hmmm. Who wants to know who carlzen is????? Raise your hands!!!!!! As many of us know!!!!! And we
will know if you post again under your other multiple aliases!!!!
Now then, lets see what happens next!!!!!
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 05:58, Voodini wrote:

I've been lambasted for selling too cheaply, lambasted for being too
expensive. Lambasted for offering deals, lambasted for not offering deals.
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.
Except for Lola.
Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola.
Page 32 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rVFsYfB4cmQ
Message:
Quote:

Good morning!
The Aston I was quiet was I actually went to sleep and got up....
First off, I want to pat myself on the back for predicting this would
happen!!!! See my earlier posts!!!! Huzzah!!!!
Next, as I tie into my next post - to try to prevent what just happened
above.... I tried to demonstrate to a great colleague how to try to do if you
got nothing good to say in public say nothing at all and indeed try to start
listing and praising heroes of mine of the $150 selling point to keep with the
topic and make this about feeling good.
Jerome's work I do not have so I cannot comment.... I do have one he sent
me years ago called acts of random kindness which had workable material. I
do own own the more expensive items.... However...
JEROME!!!! A plea!!!' Even under attack by others, don't descend into
personal vitriolic swearing and so on.... It cannot help but make you look
bad. IMHO - but it's up to you...
Ok... Back to my usual installments - who talks about their grandmother
and actually works it into a routine? Thomas!!!! And might as well add in
Rainer as they are a team of collaborator extraordinaire !!!!!
PARALABS!!'mm
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?
topic=399281&forum=15
I own most of their works and they are spectacular. My favourite is their
lecture notes which look - nay - is a slick produced manual... Edited and
made through love and time and less than the price we are talking about.
Paralogue modified (which I've told Thomas about many a time) is often my
stage presentation opener.... That is so powerful it lows things out of the
water from many other materials I have.... I've been able to tie it into my
favourite theme of showing people they are walking programmable androids
:) hee hee
Thomas and Rainer often contribute here... And have NEVER said a negative
thing (I believe) in a public forum about anyone.
True gentlemen of the highest caliber and I hope to meet them some
day!!!!
Page 33 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Man, I hate my ipad.... Just some corrections!

I am focusing on work under $150
I do not own jerome's work except raok
Add:
We are talking about books etc not people or their personal performances I believe... Like Stephen said.
IMHO
There is a difference IMHO
Ah, this is like smelling napalm in the morning!
Cue the Valkyries !! N
Message:
Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 18, 2013 9:40am)
I posted in this thread too, it is below.

If anyone has a problem with what I said, let's talk.
I'm in the book and have no qualms on face to face meetings.
If you want me to bring a tape measure, I can.
I said nothing here that I have not said before both in private and in public.
[quote]
I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was around
$20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick). Creators and
authors can price their material as they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it wants it at that price.
There is a difference between a mass produced commercial publication and a private publication. The two
cannot be compared. And it has been common throughout the history of our art for private, limited
distribution publications to go for high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at that time, a huge
sum.
I did do something a little different though. I offered to refund those not happy with what they received.
I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had some of the material from another publication I was include in.
When my material was released by a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee.
Tony
[/quote]
I did not comment on anyone else, that is not my place.
Tony Iacoviello
Message:
Quote:

I posted in this thread too, it is below.
Page 34 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
If anyone has a problem with what I said, let's talk.

I'm in the book and have no qualms on face to face meetings.
If you want me to bring a tape measure, I can.
I said nothing here that I have not said before both in private and in public.
Quote:

I don't consider myself a guru, but I did once sell
an e-book above the $15 price (I think it was
around $20). I did not price it as a book, I priced it
as a stand alone effect (like a packet trick).
Creators and authors can price their material as
they see fit it is up to The market to decide if it
wants it at that price.
There is a difference between a mass produced
commercial publication and a private publication.
The two cannot be compared. And it has been
common throughout the history of our art for
private, limited distribution publications to go for
high money. Annemann had his $50 manuscript, at
that time, a huge sum.
I did do something a little different though. I
offered to refund those not happy with what they
received. I made 4 refunds, 2 because he had
some of the material from another publication I
was include in. When my material was released by
a publisher, I could not offer his guarantee.
Tony
I did not comment on anyone else, that is not my place.

Tony Iacoviello
I feel bad that I only mentioned tony briefly in response to his initial post as an amazing creator. I want
to add to it now!!!
Tony has put out books on openers, special double writing, some bizarre effects and more. His material
is not only workable - it has often been stolen!!! Tony's greatest strength and perhaps weakness is he
shares so much with us all offline he also divulges gold nuggets of his own personal repitoire that
somehow end up uncredited in many others books and effects for sale. One could say "no proof" but I
and others have seen the material from tony years in advance before others came out with it almost
verbatim.
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Tony was one of the kind ones who welcomed me to the Caf when I first came aboard here - a friendly
peer mentor and shared a lot. I hope someday I can share as much as he... Although I am much more
suspicious of sharing with some around here :bat:
Tony to me is a true icon of the magic Caf.... And it is sad to me he isn't a VIP here because he didn't
market himself to look like a giant - which he truly is in spirit and creativity. He is one of the healthy
stabilising elements of the magic Caf.
Oh yeah, his books are under $150 - and anything he has put out for sale is workable beyond measure
as tons of people use it.
In fact, I call upon many to take this opportunity to say some thanks to tony - a very under appreciated
creative friend to us all.
If you so go to his house - I hope it's to shake his hand or give him a hug.
Great regret: not being available the rare time he actually visited Toronto :(
Message:
Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 18, 2013 10:14am)
Wow, thank you!!!

I'm at a loss for words (a rare thing).
Message:
Posted by: CarlZen (Mar 18, 2013 10:39am)
Tony is the finest human being I have ever met he is a class act.You to Dr Spector you are a fine gent
and I respect you as well.Now this is farewell for good may you all have a blessed day.
Message:
I have a Challenge to all you guys on,Penny!

Let's see who can be the,nicest?
Here I'll start...
If loving you all is Wrong,I don't want to be Right! :)
Message:
Posted by: Alwow (Mar 18, 2013 12:29pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 07:10, Anthony Black wrote:

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Page 36 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Was thinking the same thing!

Message:
Posted by: CarlZen (Mar 18, 2013 12:29pm)
Godzilla I love yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Message:
Too early for a group cyber hug ?

Steve
Message:
Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Mar 18, 2013 1:08pm)
What a hysterical thread!

All that was missing was a newbie asking "Do any of you guys know how Darren done that trick on TV
last night?" He would have been eaten alive!! :lol:
Message:
Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 18, 2013 1:08pm)
I will admit I was very annoyed when I discovered that the $87.34 manuscript that was purported to be
"The Real Work" was nothing more than an unperformable variation on the old Melson-Fleam Bellybutton
& Pancake gambit. But then again, the world is at sixes and sevens, the dogs are sticking to the
sidewalks and why our house hasn't fallen down around us is a mystery to me.
Message:
:)
Message:
Posted by: DT3 (Mar 18, 2013 2:11pm)
Quote:
Page 37 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
On 2013-03-18 13:08, drhackenbush wrote:

I will admit I was very annoyed when I discovered that the $87.34
manuscript that was purported to be "The Real Work" was nothing more
than an unperformable variation on the old Melson-Fleam Bellybutton &
Pancake gambit. But then again, the world is at sixes and sevens, the dogs
are sticking to the sidewalks and why our house hasn't fallen down around
us is a mystery to me.
I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me.

Message:
Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 18, 2013 2:14pm)
[quote]
On 2013-03-16 13:04, Mike Ince wrote:
There are a few hot creators in the mentalism market who produce a lot of risky material. By risky, I
mean sometimes it works and sometimes it fails to produce a good effect. I like the idea of taking risks
alongside surefire methods because it can result in unexplainable moments that bolster the whole effect.
What's hard to understand is the cult following these creators have despite their very expensive, limitedrelease books. Their volumes are full of interesting yet mostly unreliable material, usually including a few
effects that work well but aren't groundbreaking. Some buyers will pay over $200 for one book of
psychological forces they could have easily thought of for themselves, plus a few decent effects thrown in
(but never enough to justify the price). Meanwhile Banachek's entire PS trilogy costs $165 and includes
both psy-forces and workhorse routines that frankly leave the new books in the dust.
I find myself thinking, "Why are folks at the Caf raving about this new book? Who is this guy? Are they
all his friends? He's okay but he isn't any more creative than my friends in mentalism are. Has anyone
ever seen him perform?" Sometimes I think, "This book is mediocre and the price is high to make it
seem more wonderful than it is. It's a psychological ploy to make people value the material more; buyers
want what's harder to attain." Or worse, "This author is a flim-flam man and the Magic Caf is where he
finds his willing marks." Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't get it, but I feel this way most often about
material created by guys who are "playing it for real". I guess they work for audiences full of followers
and can say and do many things without scrutiny, things I can't get away with in a show for skeptics at
the university. Yet these creators seem to be nice guys and no one wants to write a bad review. Instead,
buyers quietly and politely dump these books in the "Let's Make a Magic Deal" forum.
When we flatter people for their mediocre work it takes away from our praise of excellent work, and
there is so much excellent work out there. Give me thoughtful creators like Bruce Bernstein, Bob
Cassidy, Doug Dyment, Ted Karmilovich and Richard Mark to name a few. I'm done with the new kids,
done with the self-described gurus who talk a good game but won't allow their performances to be seen
by us. If they wanna' charge $15 for an ebook I might support them but no way am I paying $250 for
another steaming pile of "new". I took the bait once and learned my lesson.
[/quote]
Mike I agree with your original posts 100% before getting derailed. We all know who you are referring to,
if not you need to sharpen up on your mentalism skills. This same topic is being discussed in several
mentalism communities as well.
Funny how so many paranoid creators have chimed in to quickly defend themselves. Don't worry you
have nothing to worry about. As Mike referred to new, unknown, unproven, high-priced, who we've never
seem perform (as in real performance not to a camera or friends), with cult-like followings. I've
addressed this before and have got the old bully gang up style response. I'm sure it is coming in this
Page 38 of 96
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thread shortly too.

Tony, Banachek, Patrick Redford, Mick, Larry Becker, Bob Cassidy, Jerome, Luke, Doug, Ted, Richard
Mark, Osterlind, all are fine, they don't meet this criteria. They are known, proven (each to their own
degree) and have credibility and most offer performance experience that is known.
Fact is this has taken over this forum and many of the posts here. You no longer can get a decent
review, a pre-release review, or an unbiased or impartial review pre or post release. Hell most if the time
they will not even offer information in their release or hype if their material or content is created or
designed for stage closeup, walkaround or street. I can't tell you how many times I've been burned by
this. Their response to this is always "well you should be able to adapt it to your own performance
situation". That is not the point. By not specifying it is deliberately misleading or withholding info from
the buyer as to improve sales.
Then when you try to discuss it here threads turn nasty, defensive and gang-up style. Quality discussions
can't even be had anymore.
I too am done with it and I applaud Mike for speaking up. This section of the Caf used to be so helpful,
supportive and non-evasive towards new products and releases. There's too may newbie creators that
show a few friends, who in turn come on here as some type of authorty offer extremely biased reviews,
manufactured enthusiasm and inappropriate techniques of supporting these people, their releaes and this
type of hype and behavior.
Remember the days when someone's material and content was their mouthpiece? Where they didn't
need their cult of followes constantly stating how great it was, how blown away they were and of course
declaring the new guy to be the greatest new mind in mentalism, blah, blah, blah. When the creator
themselves wouldn't have to tell you how great it is? Remember when success was determined by what
others thought? Or when credible names like Osterlind, Banachek, Cassidy or others would come on here
and praise a new release. When purchasers and the actual content was the judge? It's no longer
happening here.
Worse yet is most of it's (the released material) nothing new. It either just been newly discovered by
these kids and they get overly excited like when they first discovered their pee pee, or it is simply their
"take" on longtime, common or standard mentalism fare. Neither justifies these high prices. It's nothing
more than manufactured exclusivity, more than likely coming from some marketing guru course or
seminar. It's about generating money and self-manufactured "legend"and false credibility. These things
used to be determined by others not themselves and their cheerleaders. They suck in a few followers and
they become part of the movement.
I'm not a creator and have never claimed to be. Most here are not either. So it's sadly this majority of
this community that gets screwed. No we don't have to buy it, but we still have to put up with the
uninvited nonsense on our neighborhood. Every once in a while someone like Mike says it like it is in an
attempt to restore property values.
Members of the squad are already here. As I said, get ready, here it comes...
Message:
Wow some cool moderating clean up occurred while I was away living life :)
Anyway.... More on topic regarding material that may not always work - although I believe it's the
performer who can make almost anything work (not make it the outcome you wishes but can turn most
things into appearing intended if you get my drift)... I am going to wander into kenton land... Yes,
Kenton and some of his students are some really greats... But for whatever reason I wanted to pay
special tribute to one first ENRIQUE ENRIQUEZ
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I first came across his work in the act of imagination - something that struck me as WHOAAAA THIS IS
REALLY AMAZING - it was Abilene of waking suggestion and words in a way that it appeared it wasn't
hypnosis but was... You'd have to read it to get it and think of it.... Then came his invisible series... And
his work of metaphoric readings etc... All of this was less than $50 a piece and has material people have
used again without crediting him as being a forerunner for many today.... I've been ale to take many of
his principles and use them right away - and it was what really got me into language and meaning use in
a unique way... He also is a friendly soul who has been polite and is clearly passionate about the art. He
is someone I'd love to meet and just watch him do readings all day
Anyway, back to mike inces original post - this is material tha is not sure fire and is more in the hands of
the performer to figure out how to use it. However, I believe Enrique gives always enough information,
background, and examples to really get a feel of what to do....
Anyway, Kenton knepper Ill save for later.... Enrique to me has a special place beyond pure kentonismhe was a pioneer imagineering master
Message:
Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 18, 2013 2:24pm)
An amazingly revelatory thread. Personalities revealed far beyond their intent. Assumptions confirmed:
Idjits be idjits, and pompous idjits be more pompous than is tolerable. The calm and peaceful remain so,
the frantic more so.
Really interesting so far...One more reason I love this place.
Message:
Strange, the thread started interesting, then turned into o marketplace of vanities, I did not know why but now I know why. Jan
Message:
Posted by: seadog93 (Mar 18, 2013 5:37pm)
Darn, I wish I hadn't read this thread.

I didn't look at it for a long time and, now that I have, I am trying to decide wether sharing my opinion
will be helpful or just fan the flames.
I recently, jokingly, released an reading method in Inner thoughts that I was calling a "$75 ebook" (or
$50, or $100, I don't remember) as a joke on some people who release "the real work," at inflated
prices, when it can be had for $5 through Llewellyn publishing. It was meant to be a light-hearted, joking
way of sharing a reading method that I like a lot. As I was writing that thread I actually got worried that
some might think I was talking about Jerome (since he has some detractors here) so I made sure to add
a caveat. For the record I think Jerome releases very good stuff.
I think it's important to notice, in regards to the thread 'heading south,' that several authors who's work
is priced very reasonably and who's integrity no one questions where immediately concerned that they
were being talked about in the initial post. Is it any wonder then that Jerome, who prices his ebooks in
the range the original post mentions and has had detractors on the Caf, would feel defensive? Especially
once he is directly named?
For what it's worth I have given Jerome some large sums for some of his work, and I have been
thoroughly satisfied with what I have received. Jerome has an amazing history and background that he
brings to his work and a perspective on mentalism that I for one really like. There are several routines of
his that I have used very successfully and several that I am currently in the process of working on and I
am very excited about (one the latter being "energetic touches" that was mentioned earlier). There are
also many routines that I have not used but have got me thinking in different ways.
Also, as was noted earlier, Jerome is an established performer with experience; not a total beginner who
is releasing stuff we all already know. Whether any of that justifies the price to any given individual is,
Page 40 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
obviously, up to the individual, but I felt like I should share my thoughts.

...I will now go hide in a corner! lol :)
Message:
I wish I could respond in more detail but I'm away on business with only my phone. Let me introduce
myself. My name really is Mike Ince. I grew up at a magic shop starting at age 15. While there I
developed a sense of value, a nose for the kind of strong material I like. While I always did mental magic
in my shows, I went completely mental about five years ago.
I'm a part-time performer and haven't represented myself any other way. I do 6-10 stand-up
performances per year and the rest is up-close. To my knowledge none of these are available for public
viewing except 2 clips taken last December at a variety show at a residence, starring local magicians and
performed for an audience comprised of about 50% magicians. I never posted the links here because
they aren't my best. I did learn from watching them and right now they can be viewed on YouTube by
searching my name plus "Half-n-half 2012". I may post links later in Inner Thoughts to discuss what I
learned from those short spots.
I'm not sure why they made Jerome feel suicidal but he's free to comment on publicly viewable footage. I
don't perform to please Jerome. He and I are worlds apart when it comes to the characters we portray. I
bought one of his works and found two things I could use but only one that fit my show at the time.
Others may get more mileage from what he's published but his style wasn't a good fit for me. I paid my
hundreds and am also free to comment on that publication. I expect to be able to do so without bullying
responses though I've never reviewed anything of his here-this is the first time I've said peep about it
and I want him to see I'm not being vicious. Guys who buy his stuff know what they're getting by now
and seem happy with what they pay for. It ain't my thing. Fair?
I released a small set of notes as an ebook last year called Better Returns. They're $15 and I may offer
them with a money-back guarantee. I liked Tony's post about that.
Until this thread derailed I liked how positive it had become. There are so many quality releases in our
community and the creators should get a little recognition, even if they didn't make a fortune in
publishing.
MindPro, thanks for your thoughts. You clearly understood what I was getting at.
One more thing - in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes the lesson was everyone was afraid of
stating the obvious. That is why I titled this thread The Emperor Has No Clothes. Forgive me if you
misunderstood "no clothes" to mean certain creators have nothing to offer. They do; much of it is
overvalued IMO and I hope they come down to Earth and offer their best without even the appearance of
cult marketing strategies.
Message:
I got the impression Jerome was actually being tongue-in-cheek, at first I thought he was going ballistic
then read the thread again and it seemed like he just being lightheartedly over-the-top pretending to be
like a prizefighter psyching out an opponent. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but he did seem to
be less serious than it first appeared.
Message:
Quote:

...I have no idea what I'm talking about...
Page 41 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
But why do you talk then ? :) Jan

Message:
That is the question...

Message:
:) :)
Message:
Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 18, 2013 7:06pm)
Since names have been named, I am going to comment on two. I am lucky enough to have two ebooks
by Jerome, and to have a number of Paul Voodini's, some very expensive, others less so.
The first time I did Jerome's Energetic Touches the man I did it for looked completely stunned. It is a real
worker. Jerome's stuff is very expensive, but is aimed at people who work. Two gigs would pay for
Jerome's most expensive ebook. Four gigs would pay for a box illusion. Which would be more useful to
me? If I were a rich man I would have no hesitation paying Jerome's prices, because the stuff is worth it.
Is he over-priced? That is down to the buyer, but I suspect that he would not keep those prices unless
people were paying them. And the people paying them are not newbies, and are not being taken for a
ride.
The most expensive thing I bought from Paul (Midnight Side of the Mind) was a steal, considering the use
I have made of the material. I would love to have got it for $15, but was quite happy to pay ten times
this amount.
Last year I did a weekend of hypnosis training which cost me 600 I did not have at the time. But that
investment improved my act tremendously. Jerome and Paul's works have done the same for me. They
are investments in my magic. I have bought plenty of $15 dollar ebooks which have not made it into my
act.
On a personal level I have found Jerome to be a friendly, helpful and supportive fellow. He has come in
for some stick here, but it is undeserved. Paul (though his stuff is a lot cheaper than Jerome's, even at
the top end) is also a friendly and helpful guy. Tony
Message:
Sorry, but I never thought that the theme of this thread was intended to point into the direction of
Jerome or Paul. They are both far beyond this discussion. Jan
Message:
Now let's all go watch Skyfall together!

Message:
Quote:

I got the impression
Page 42 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Which method are you using? Feel free to take this to PM, Doctor.
Message:
Posted by: drhackenbush (Mar 19, 2013 6:52am)
Remember I mentioned bellybuttons and pancakes? 'Nuff said.

Message:
I think the subject is a very broad canvas with very little black and white.
There is such a lot of grey areas (around 50 perhaps.
It's very easy to talk about extremes.
At one extreme, the $150+ book (electronic or real) that contains either one padded out over-hyped
effect.
Or the similarly priced offering that contains work that only those with a very specific
persona/presentational style could pull off.
The other extreme is the $50 or less gem that is a dream to perform and hits hard.
But what about the expensive book that does contain workable material that is able to be performed in a
variety of styles and by different personas?
I have bought 5 books that could be considered to be in the expensive category. (subjective I know)
Of these three were one-effect books (with variations maybe but still basically one effect)
and two contained a series of effects.
The ones that I feel were value for money were UNREAL and BIGGER FISH.(multi effect books)
and THREE ENVELOPE TEST (single effect book)
That's not to say the others weren't good books. The effects in them were very good, but IMHO
overpriced.
Other people may find different things work for them, and a book that contains effects that don't suit me,
may be the holy grail for someone else.
What I find difficult is when reviews come in that say "Not everyone will understand this work" or "This
will not suit every performer" How is one to make an informed decision on whether to purchase.
I'm quite happy to take a chance on things in life, others may need more information before purchasing.
That's it really
Steve
Message:
Posted by: Peter_turner (Mar 19, 2013 8:03am)
Quote:

I think the subject is a very broad canvas with very little black and white.
There is such a lot of grey areas (around 50 perhaps.
It's very easy to talk about extremes.
At one extreme, the $150+ book (electronic or real) that contains either
one padded out over-hyped effect.
Or the similarly priced offering that contains work that only those with a
very specific persona/presentational style could pull off.
The other extreme is the $50 or less gem that is a dream to perform and
Page 43 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
hits hard.
But what about the expensive book that does contain workable material that
is able to be performed in a variety of styles and by different personas?
I have bought 5 books that could be considered to be in the expensive
category. (subjective I know)
Of these three were one-effect books (with variations maybe but still
basically one effect)
and two contained a series of effects.
The ones that I feel were value for money were UNREAL and BIGGER FISH.
(multi effect books)
and THREE ENVELOPE TEST (single effect book)
That's not to say the others weren't good books. The effects in them were
very good, but IMHO overpriced.
Other people may find different things work for them, and a book that
contains effects that don't suit me, may be the holy grail for someone else.
What I find difficult is when reviews come in that say "Not everyone will
understand this work" or "This will not suit every performer" How is one to
make an informed decision on whether to purchase.
I'm quite happy to take a chance on things in life, others may need more
information before purchasing.
That's it really
Steve
Thanks for feeling Bigger fish was worth it :D

It was a very important turning point for me. Much love brother x
Message:
Posted by: RLFrame (Mar 19, 2013 8:43am)
First of all, thanks to Patrick Redford and Mick Ayres for their kind thoughts.
Secondly, people have the right to sell whatever they want for whatever they want.
Third, my perspective on message boards is that they largely represent an opportunity lost: So many
creative people who share the same passion, but who repeatedly show that they can't get along. That
said however, I keep coming back. Why? For me it's like gold mining, you have to go through a lot of dirt
to get a nugget, but I would not have come by the nugget otherwise. I have met and correspond with
some wonderful people and I have found some great ideas through this medium. I found some great
equivoque strategies discussed some time ago, and some fantastic ideas on a Colin McLeod's Kolintrol
routine more. Both tiny little changes in the wording that make a big difference. I wish there were more
of such exchanges, but the few that are make it worthwhile. All of which is related to the subject at
hand. I purchased Patrick's Ultimate Ring Of Truth manuscript years ago. I liked the plot and loved the
method, but because it is not 100%, particularly when I was new to it, I didn't perform it. I didn't want
to fail and look like a bum. So I played around with some other logic principles that I was playing with
and come up with a way to succeed via logic even if I did not recognize the tell. I figured I was not alone
in being apprehensive about performing it, so I shared it with Patrick and he included it on the
Prevaricator DVD. I would not have purchased Patrick's manuscript, nor Colin's "Opening Minds" DVD's at
Page 44 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
$100.
The point of all of this is that with a high priced exclusive release, and again, every creator is free to do
so, what you can lose is the opportunity to make it even better, or easier, or-fail safe, or another great
application of, or a great presentation for etc., through ideas that come only as a result of many people
playing with and thinking about the idea such as happened with Kolintrol, or Prevaricator, ot the Hoy
card principle or the Dunninger Ploy, or many others. And not to be preachy, but it is basically the same
opportunity lost when thousands of creative people who share the same passion get together everyday
and spend energy in a negative instead of helpful way.
Ryan
Message:
Posted by: brehaut (Mar 19, 2013 10:37am)
At the end of the day, I think it is about the strength of the material rather than the price. A piece of
crap is a piece of crap for $15 or $150. A provacative new effect or presentation or method can be gem
regardless of whether it is $15 or $500. I have purchased material for $15 that I use all the time and
some that I read once and threw away. The same can be said about higher price items. So for me to
focus on the price is irrelevant---the question is am I buying something of quality? Our art form is
interesting. When we sell an effect, many times we are just selling a secret (unless it involves a prop that
is expensive to make). How do you put a price on a secret? I have struggled with this. I truely believe it
is up to the creator. I have been involved in other hobbies like coin collecting where a relatively common
coin sells for $600 or $700. Is paying $150 for someone's closely guarded secret too much? I have paid
$250 to play the Harbor Town Golf Course (once for 4 hours). Is $250 too much to ask for a book of
strong material? Again, the answer will depend on whether the material is truely strong or not. But as I
started, crap is crap at any price---its not a dollar issue. I do think there is a certain segment that simply
thinks all effects for sale should be inexpensive so that they can learn all the secrets. that's just not the
way it works. Anyway, at the end of the day I try to buy quality and respect the performer's price point.
And if I can't afford his price---instead of complaining I either save up or move on to something else.
Message:
Posted by: NYNick (Mar 19, 2013 1:02pm)
Laugh all you like some of you don't deserve the real good stuff.My opinion Neal should just sell to his
friends. He has a lot and they can support him. Every one else just buy$15 ebooks that's what you
deserve.
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-19 13:02, NYNick wrote:

Laugh all you like some of you don't deserve the real good stuff.My opinion
Neal should just sell to his friends. He has a lot and they can support him.
Every one else just buy$15 ebooks that's what you deserve.
Thanks for the tip.

Message:
Posted by: NYNick (Mar 19, 2013 1:09pm)
Your welcome. Thanks for the thanks.

Message:
... And now for my next instalment... Perhaps controversial... But not to me... Is the amazing also under
appreciated IMHO
Page 45 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
RICHARD OSTERLIND
Despite inventing numerous things and being ripped off as much as my other big heroes - he also still
goes on to offer materials in affordable ranges... DVDs books and so on way under the $150. - those that
are over $100 are multidisks with tons of material. Now, some might argue that some offerings are
mental magic vs mentalism etc and that his style works for some effects he presents while others not
so... But he still teaches in a very clear way... Is an engaging personality.... His many credits behind
him... And although I've seen some angry outbursts I've seen him apologise or work through most
issues... But not blatant theft (e.g. Moveo) or direct insults (where someone here basically twisted
comments from a book of a friend of his into an insult etc).... I have never regretted buying his materials
or his gimmicks as they are all commercial and usable and actually tested under fire. He also contributes
here on the mc but not as much after often getting IMHO cyber bullied a lot... But still he is here. Do ia
gree with everything he says? No - but I respect him as a person, a creator, and a performer we can all
learn from in one way or another. Again, I found many of his effects he sells so easy to learn
methodologically one can spend most time on presenting and honing your own character.
Anyway, I don't believe the thread concept here applies to him either. He offers high quality items or
stops selling them if he finds its not up to his own standard.
IMHO
.
Message:
I don't have works from everyone listed by Dr Spektor, but I certainly have to agree on everyone that I
am familiar with.
Message:
I also like Richard's work!

At beginning I was not fan of his work and know I'm a more experienced performer I can fully appreciate
his work.
Message:
If you want it, buy it.

if you can't afford, don't.
if you like it, praise,
if you don't, don't,
if you're happy with your purchase, buy again,
if youre not happy with purchase, give a second chance.
if youre still not happy don't buy anymore.
BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES,
should you try to tell others what to do...
Message:
Arthur Rimbaud?
Message:
Presque,
Chantal Goya...
Message:

Page 46 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Quote:
On 2013-03-19 15:04, THB wrote:

if youre not happy with purchase, give a second chance.
Are you an anarchist?

Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-19 15:29, Smoking Camel wrote:

Quote:
On 2013-03-19 15:04, THB wrote:

if youre not happy with purchase, give a second
chance.
Are you an anarchist?
Not far, libertarian.
Page 47 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
don't you agree with me? :)

Message:
"BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES,

should you try to tell others what to do..."
Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No offense, just kidding.
---------------+1 for Richard Osterlind.
+2 for Enrique Enriquez. I remember his great contributions on Mentalist Alliance forum. Mr Enriquez is
deeply human and wise. It has always been a pleasure to interact with him.
I didn't see Ted Lesley on the list. He was a man I appreciated very much. A few weeks before he died
he told me about his personnal problems. It made me very sad. I will always remember this gentleman
asking me for permission to use a personnal idea. It was so weird for me. I'm affraid too many people
forgot him in the last very difficult years of his life. Paramiracles is a book which should be read by any
mentalist.
Message:
Posted by: migwar (Mar 19, 2013 3:35pm)
I think people spending hard earned money on products have the right to express either pleasure or
displeasure on the purchased products.
Message:
Posted by: tomsk192 (Mar 19, 2013 3:41pm)
Quite so. Interpreting a poor review as being 'told what to do' seems to be faintly ludicrous. Perhaps it is
my misunderstanding.
Message:
Quote:

Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No
offense, just kidding.
I know :)
That's the anarchist main problem isn't it.
You can't really impose your views
Such a shame :)
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
I would love to impose anarchism to the world. By force if necessary. :) :)

Message:
Quote:

Hmmm... isn't it exactly what you've just done with your message ?.. ;) No
offense, just kidding.
---------------+1 for Richard Osterlind.
+2 for Enrique Enriquez. I remember his great contributions on Mentalist
Alliance forum. Mr Enriquez is deeply human and wise. It has always been a
pleasure to interact with him.
I didn't see Ted Lesley on the list. He was a man I appreciated very much. A
few weeks before he died he told me about his personnal problems. It made
me very sad. I will always remember this gentleman asking me for
permission to use a personnal idea. It was so weird for me. I'm affraid too
many people forgot him in the last very difficult years of his life.
Paramiracles is a book which should be read by any mentalist.
I didn't get to Ted yet... or Becker... there are so many greats when you think about it...
Aside: I believe the Joker in the Dark Knight was trying to impose his view that there is no use for any
rules... and was always trying to break everyone who had any personal rules.
Message:
Posted by: HeatherV (Mar 19, 2013 8:10pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 13:08, innercirclewannabe wrote:

What a hysterical thread!
All that was missing was a newbie asking "Do any of you guys know how
Darren done that trick on TV last night?" He would have been eaten alive!!
:lol:
....uhm....I'll just shut up because OF COURSE I want to know how DB does stuff! Duh. (and yes, I am a
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
newbie, so nyah!)
Play on players.
Message:
Quote:

I believe the Joker in the Dark Knight was trying to impose his view that
there is no use for any rules... and was always trying to break everyone
who had any personal rules.
Indeed,
And what a charactwr he is,
One of the best vilains around :)
Message:
I think we should now turn our attention back to someone who somehow often does not get his full due
as a master of mind mysteries,,,, I say turn back as
BRUCE BERNSTEIN
had already been mentioned - but it was too quick and lumped in with a bunch of ther names.
I had been collecting bb's works before UNREAL came out and thus often pointed out to many new
releases that seemed to be using his work without crediting him - you'll find many such posts of mine on
the magic Caf. His work is direct and swift and powerful - not an ounce of wasted space or filler. Many
of you have found out about him since UNREAL came out.... And just like prism and similar, I have mixed
feeling of having such gems get out yet realise its great to finally see the proof of all the things bb
pioneered.... Like EAT AT JOES the c affair (my fav thing to add in al,ost everywhere) and so much
more... Plus he is a musical soul. He also has a bizarre magic side which appealed to me from t.he get
go. He also is easy to correspond with and has a great humorous side. Almost of all of his works are
under $150.,,, except one that breaks the $50 zone is TABOO. But it's a great item tha takes many ideas
and works he has already published and weaves into a powerful presentation... Some say its not for
everyone (!!!). But I say nothing is for everyone - but even if you don't use taboo presentation you can
change the premise to whatever you want and it's a master level treatise on a commercial edgy show...
Again it appeals to me as I like dark stuff and modified it to be the seven deadly sins of mankind and
made it more spooky... Is it worth $100? To me yes, but because I 1) appreciate everything bb has put
out as workers 2) I do collect (not invest) bb for my library of madness and 3) looking into the dark
deeds of the soul is a great fun presentation.... Heck, you could make it into thr SHADOW KNOWS....
So, even though bb has 1 book at $100 most hints are less... And Unreal is a steal - and although I
owned 90% of the content and bought for the essays - he had reworked many routines - and if anyone
reads closely there is a secret ou can find in the book... I ain't telling tho.
So, I doubt this thread has anything to do with Bruce Bernstein either.
Message:
Posted by: DekEl (Mar 19, 2013 11:48pm)

Page 50 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Quote:

Wow some cool moderating clean up occurred while I was away living life :)
Anyway.... More on topic regarding material that may not always work although I believe it's the performer who can make almost anything work
(not make it the outcome you wishes but can turn most things into
appearing intended if you get my drift)... I am going to wander into kenton
land... Yes, Kenton and some of his students are some really greats... But
for whatever reason I wanted to pay special tribute to one first ENRIQUE ENRIQUEZ
I first came across his work in the act of imagination - something that
struck me as WHOAAAA THIS IS REALLY AMAZING - it was Abilene of
waking suggestion and words in a way that it appeared it wasn't hypnosis
but was... You'd have to read it to get it and think of it.... Then came his
invisible series... And his work of metaphoric readings etc... All of this was
less than $50 a piece and has material people have used again without
crediting him as being a forerunner for many today.... I've been ale to take
many of his principles and use them right away - and it was what really got
me into language and meaning use in a unique way... He also is a friendly
soul who has been polite and is clearly passionate about the art. He is
someone I'd love to meet and just watch him do readings all day
Anyway, back to mike inces original post - this is material tha is not sure
fire and is more in the hands of the performer to figure out how to use it.
However, I believe Enrique gives always enough information, background,
and examples to really get a feel of what to do....
Anyway, Kenton knepper Ill save for later.... Enrique to me has a special
place beyond pure kentonismhe was a pioneer imagineering master
I whole-heartedly agree. He has some mind blowing works on cold reading. He made it all made sense
for me, and I stopped my research, and just understood how it worked and how things are formed and
have been formed and why they work.
I like a decent amount of Kenton's work. Some of it I find to be useless and overpriced, but everyone has
a different slant and style. Some of his works are undoubtedly genius.
And then there are the handful of resources by the workers, who do this time and time again. Steps,
most of Cassidy's work, and most of Osterlind's stuff, amongst other smaller names such as Bryn
Reynolds and various prop creators.
Paul Voodini fits into this category in terms of cold reading and other more esoteric aspects -- although a
couple of his works I haven't found useful, the vast majority is incredibly so, and Midnight is perhaps my
favorite in it's versatility and scope.
1 or 2 of Luke Jermay's works I've found to be incredibly devious, but he's put out some generally
overpriced and unworkable material, and done some other sketchy things so I no longer feel great
buying from him.
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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Almost everything else is diminishingly useful and priced oft incorrectly.

Message:
I could not agree more with these posts. Luke's work has always been inspirational (glad to see he has
gone back to being Luke Jermay too!). Kenton is a real innovator, let us not forget. Bernstein obviously!
It is good to remind ourselves now and then of the *real* pros, the guys who have genuinely added new
material and ideas to the art - to take a deep breath in the clear air outside of the now stale fog of the
flim-flam artists.
Lets keep celebrating the true innovators and let the shadows disperse.
Message:
AH ! I got another that might be controversial!

I once shelled out $200 for when the Mind and Magic of DAVID BERGLAS came out.
I was enchanted and felt after reading that book the entire concepts of going with the flow, multiple plan
b-z contingencies, equiv. s****craft, and much more... and it transformed my style. Now, this is not the
book $50 range I have been talking about - but I'm edging up into some of my higher purchases... and
this one was killer. It also conveyed to me a bit of the person of Berglas himself who seems a gentleman
and scholar and funster... I know he has associated with the Psycrets crowd and part of their book has
some of his work in it - i.e. collaborative master good fellow in my book. LIBER MENTIS I bought just for
the Berglas piece (although I knew I'd get a lot of gems along with it... but that is another post in the
future....)....
The controversy I recall were people complaining they did not get the ACAAN and the table lift. Well, I
don't know about you - but it was in there if you read the PRINCIPLES throughout the book - and the
chapter on jazzing so to speak as well as other techs I mentioned above - that it became bleeding
obvious how to do them (Not sure if it was the exact method Berglas would have done - but by gosh, I
figured out some ways to do it based on the PRINCIPLES)... it also showed me about learning a basic
concept/method that appears simple but taking years to master it into a weapon more potent than
antimatter bombs!
Yes, Berglas had a book over $150 with some people complaining it was missing a promised ACAAN...
but IMHO it was there. Read it again if you have it!
NB: I did not buy two for an investment. I bought one and it stays in my collection as a collector and
student of mystery arts. I believe this is a classic....
Hmmm.. for my next instalment, I may pick a really bizarre spiritualism mediumistic fellow... but I bet
you can't guess it!
Message:
Posted by: brehaut (Mar 20, 2013 7:26pm)
When I read mind and magic I was surprised. Surprised because people said it didn't tell his ACAAN. It
absolutely did. I think they just didn't like his explanation
Message:
:) exactly what I believe ... Jan

Message:
Today's instalment is an odd one... as its written by multiple people to form a omnibus tribute to a
person. Perhaps controversial because Teller wrote a large part... perhaps also Kellar of Miracle Factory
making it high quality collectors book... but it does contain the original writings of one
Page 52 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
DAVID P. ABBOTT
Under the title of HOUSE OF MYSTERY. It currently sells for $100 and I actually bought the special
limited edition (!) release in a slipcase etc. as this stuff is what I live for based on my style...
Now, what can works from almost 100 years ago do for us today? Well, IMHO - a lot of things. I would
say this Abbott fellow was a genius of the highest calibre. Who can not be inspired by the genius of his
work and the fact he made his living dwelling his theatre? A man who the greats would all come to visit?
A person whose work even back then was being ripped off... by people like Houdini (!).... but if you read
a lot of the seance material put out by many people... you will see a ton of his work predated theirs and
is similar if not exactly the same techniques... talk about another unsung hero of the field. Many of you
mentalists may have passed on this because it looks like (I hate this term) "Bizarre magic" - but its
spiritualism techniques explained and many of the roots of mentalism today can be seen from such
works.
Is he credited? Usually not ever. He usually gets mistaken for Abbott's Magic founder - which he isn't!!!!
And who cannot fall in love with ol' Balsamo? Yes, I admit I collect chattering skulls... ok, my bias
revealed! I notice some people still like talking tea kettles too... but so much in these 2 volumes for
$100... my god.
Are they al "Usable" material? I'd say yes... they worked 100 years ago... but like most things, its how
much passion and time you want to invest to bring these things to life and maximum impact.
Why do I like this book as well? Besides content which is amazing, it also shows Teller can be passionate
about the art and he shares some of his own material with the readers as well. In addition, as mentioned
above, its a highly classy book to have for we physical HC collectors - but it isn't just for collecting - the
material in this book you could take the PRINCIPLES from and do a ton of things with.
OK, how many of you saw DAVID P. ABBOTT as the one I was hinting I was going to post next?
Hmmm.. actually a better question is How Many even Care? Seems I am getting lonely here on this
thread - is it running out of steam? Does anyone want me to continue posting my humble opinions here?
Doesn't anyone else want to take time to pay tribute to the greats????
Message:
Posted by: Lucien Astor (Mar 21, 2013 12:07pm)
Quote:
Hmmm.. actually a better question is How Many even Care? Seems I am

getting lonely here on this thread - is it running out of steam? Does anyone
want me to continue posting my humble opinions here? Doesn't anyone else
want to take time to pay tribute to the greats????
I'm enjoying it. I am actually now curious to grab the Abbott book.
Message:
Posted by: lekin (Mar 21, 2013 12:46pm)
If you find your way to the Learned Pig Project at lybrary.com you will find Abbott's book Behind the
Scenes With the Mediums posted as a public domain book. Well worth the time and energy and defintely
someone who tends to be overlooked today.
Page 53 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
I have a second print of the Behind the Scenes book, hardback, printed in 1902 I think...
Message:
All of Abbott's books are awesome. Really love them.

Message:
Behind the scenes with Mediums is AMAZING!

It's free on-line, but I found that I needed a physical copy to read. There are reprints available cheap on
amazon.
Message:
OK hate to be the last one with a clue, but what's the Learned Pig Project on Lybrary?
Message:
Posted by: lekin (Mar 21, 2013 1:50pm)
Here is Chris Wasshuber's intro to the Learned Pig on lybrary.com:

The Learned Pig Project was started in September 1999 by Marko from Panama. Marko's idea was
essentially to mimic the Project Gutenberg for magicians. Project Gutenberg's purpose is to digitize public
domain books. The Learned Pig Project's goal is to digitize public domain magic books. When Marko
started he had four books digitized: My Magic Life (Devant), Miracle Mongers (Houdini), The Lives of the
Conjurers (Frost) and Behind the Scenes with the Mediums (Abbott). He would later add dozens more. In
late 2011 Marko shut down the project due to security issues on his website.
To prevent the loss of this great resource I decided to purchase TLPP from Marko and continue to host it
here on Lybrary.com. Lybrary.com's mission is very well aligned with the mission of TLPP. My goal is to
digitize magic literature and make it conveniently available to interested magicians. Please use this
resource responsibly. Even though most of the books included here are in the public domain their
conversions to digital form are not. Marko put an enormous amount of effort into this work. I know,
because I have myself digitized hundreds of books. I have paid a good amount of money for Marko's
work. Please do not copy, mirror or share these ebooks without my permission. The best way to support
TLPP is to support Lybrary.com through referrals, links, and purchases. If you have any questions or
suggestions I am just an email away.
Message:
Posted by: magic4545 (Mar 21, 2013 4:12pm)
I wonder if anyone thinks of my mentalism work as part of the problem or part of the solution. Either
way, I prefer to use my material, for myself, over most of what comes down the pipe. Because it's my
own inspired work. It comes from a place inside of me that most other people don't get. But, for those
who DO get it, it creates a style and a lifelong relationship of like minds and kindred spirits. I wonder if
people are thinking that my work is overpriced and underdelivered, but I'm not going to stop providing it
just because someone feels that way. I've got too many people telling me that they really like it.
Also, nobody paid attention to my work until the price was high enough to be a sacrifice to be made. The
high price weeded out the 'trick hoarders' and the merely curious and put the work into the hands of only
those who would appreciate it.
Unfortunate, but that seems to be the way that things work out.
I'm very thankful and appreciative to those who have supported my thinking and work.
Jimmy Fingers
Page 54 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
Jimmy:
I bought some of your material and thought that it was well presented and worth more than the asking
price. This may have been before you raised your prices though... :)
Tony
Message:
This is not at snipe at you Mr Fingers, but I always thought the first step in keeping things from the
'merely curious' would be to not flog it on the Caf?
Message:
Quote:

This is not at snipe at you Mr Fingers, but I always thought the first step in
keeping things from the 'merely curious' would be to not flog it on the Caf?
WE TAKE THIS BREAK FROM OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM

I guess it gets back to what is flogging? If someones every post (or 7/10 posts) always refers to their
own work and how to get it, I'd feel it was flogging. Or if any people are always saying how great
something is over and over without any objective descriptions of WHY its great... that could be flogging
too...
I especially thinks its flogging when someone doesn't bother to even buy an ad but figures ways to
advertise here anyway! Good example of a good egg is Dr Bill again - for his ebooks he always takes out
an ad - puts maybe one post up about his work - and then many people chime in with objective reasons
why his stuff is great etc and he just thanks them... and then doesn't refer to his work very often again
unless highly relevent to a discussion topic.
That being said, as above illustrates, I think its OK for creators to talk about their stuff and toot the horn
once in a while - its the extremism that makes it feel flogged.
(Notice how I got an extra kudos to Dr Bill in there :)))
END OF SIDEBOX
Message:
Posted by: hypblake (Mar 21, 2013 5:38pm)
I based my career off Jeromes work. I consider him a friend, so you can do what you like with that
statement. I did pay for it and I do use it. I've made that money back and then a lot more. If you
consider that in the equation I basically stole his work for pennies on the dollar. I've also paid $25 for
steaming piles of dog poop. If you take into consideration of what I paid and what I got in return I WAS
ROBBED BLIND! It doesn't seem many here are attacking Jerome, but those that are just might not
understand.
Having said that how cool would it be to see a WWE showdown? I'd go against you Jerome if nobody else
has the guts ;)
Page 55 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
p.s. I hold the right to back out of that without looking like a "pansy"
Message:
Dr S - I mean that if you go on about how your work is only for 'those who are mighty and wise enough
to understand the value of what they have' and that the work is only for the very few enlightened
individuals and you so want to keep it form the hands of the ignorant masses - then why would you
promote it on an open forum?
I am not pointing fingers in any particular direction. But it always seemed an odd paradox to me. Were I
to write such a book, no one here would hear of it!
Message:
Quote:

Dr S - I mean that if you go on about how your work is only for 'those who
are mighty and wise enough to understand the value of what they have' and
that the work is only for the very few enlightened individuals and you so
want to keep it form the hands of the ignorant masses - then why would
you promote it on an open forum?
I am not pointing fingers in any particular direction. But it always seemed
an odd paradox to me. Were I to write such a book, no one here would hear
of it!
hmmm.... good point! Although I am not sure that is flogging - more boasting... and playing on elitism
marketing strategies... more akin to what Mike was talking about with the Emperor's Clothes analogy where there will be pressure if you buy it to say its for the elite and illuminated even if it isn't.... i.e. not
flogging but creating an illusion of the material being greater than it is (or really nothing at all) - until
someone dares yell "Doggie Poopies!"
I will say I have had my share of dog poops of <$50 manuscripts and learned not to buy anything from
that author again!
Of course, it would be better to explain in descr details why one feels / thinks it is of any particular value
from the consumer's POV
Speaking of The Elite...!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXUu91JrpzA
Message:
BTW I also agree with you on the Berglas book. When a real performer who has devoted his life to
developing his art, then essentially sells that accumulated knowledge, without resorting to dubious
marketing techniques is worthy of respect, obviously. Such books are rare and valuable. But the 'real
stuff' is not sold on forums or in magic shops, it never has been, it is passed in trust between
professionals who make their money from performing rather than perpetuating hype.
Message:

Page 56 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
"I will say I have had my share of dog poops of <$50 manuscripts and learned not to buy anything from
that author again!
Of course, it would be better to explain in descr details why one feels / thinks it is of any particular value
from the consumer's POV "
I think this forum shows why it's so difficult at times to give an honest opinion here on the Caf. But like
you Doc, I usually say nothing if I can't say something good. Occasionally though when really necessary
I'll take a hit and speak up.
And just to be quite clear, I'm not referring to any individual here OK.
Message:
Christopher Gould said, "But the 'real stuff' is not sold on forums or in magic shops, it never has been, it
is passed in trust between professionals who make their money from performing rather than
perpetuating hype."
Boy, is that ever true. One of the best ways to learn is to literally sit and watch the giver with open eyes,
open ears and a closed mouth. A lot of advice is given by a lot of people, and a very small number of
those giving advice actually have the decades and thousands of hours of real-world experience that give
their advice weight. If you can be in that seat watching, listenting and learning, you're a very lucky
person. By just watching someone who has spent 50 years trouping pack and unpack their show that
took them around the world, you can learn more than any trick would teach you. You can learn how to
LIVE the life of an entertainer, what it's like to have it all come from the inside out, and when someone
who possesses that gets up on stage or in front of an audience, whether it be an audience of one or of
thousands or even millions, it shows. And that is something that cannot be faked.
Message:
Quote:

Christopher Gould said, "But the 'real stuff' is not sold on forums or in magic
shops, it never has been, it is passed in trust between professionals who
make their money from performing rather than perpetuating hype."
Boy, is that ever true. One of the best ways to learn is to literally sit and
watch the giver with open eyes, open ears and a closed mouth. A lot of
advice is given by a lot of people, and a very small number of those giving
advice actually have the decades and thousands of hours of real-world
experience that give their advice weight. If you can be in that seat
watching, listenting and learning, you're a very lucky person. By just
watching someone who has spent 50 years trouping pack and unpack their
show that took them around the world, you can learn more than any trick
would teach you. You can learn how to LIVE the life of an entertainer, what
it's like to have it all come from the inside out, and when someone who
possesses that gets up on stage or in front of an audience, whether it be an
audience of one or of thousands or even millions, it shows. And that is
something that cannot be faked.
Very true
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Message:
Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 22, 2013 3:57am)
Quote:

But the 'real stuff' is not sold on forums or in magic shops, it never has
been, it is passed in trust between professionals who make their money
from performing rather than perpetuating hype.
Well I guess Practical Mental Effects, Corinda, and even my own stuff, aren't the "real work."
Who'd have thought?
Message:
You must be the exception that proves the rule.

It's as real as it gets.
Steve
Message:
Only yesterday I was studying your 4DT video clip again.

Steve
Message:
Posted by: Sean Giles (Mar 22, 2013 4:34am)
Quote:

But the 'real stuff' is not sold on forums or in magic shops, it never has
been, it is passed in trust between professionals who make their money
from performing rather than perpetuating hype.
Don't you have an online magic shop and forum that sells your products?
Message:
Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 22, 2013 4:37am)
Thanks Steve. But everything I learned about this art started with the fundamental texts that I bought in
magic shops and book stores. While it's true that ideas, new routines and presentations are bandied
about and shared among professionals, the idea that there is a body of "real work" that is only accessible
to the privileged few is largely a myth.
Message:
Bob, there clearly are exceptions and your work and the others you mention fall very much into that
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category. Most people here are capable of telling the real workers from the flim flam artists, and I have
nothing but respect for you and the work you have given to the community. But my point still stands, I
doubt very much that you have put *everything* out there? ;-)
Sean, yes and it is really worth a visit! :)
However, you will not see me in a consortium hyping it!
Count how many posts there are on pennies where I hype my products.
Message:
Posted by: takeachance (Mar 22, 2013 5:00am)
With all due respect Bob, I wasn't talking about what is in books out there, but the little subtleties in
your professional skills developed over years of performing in the trenches. If you are lucky enough to
have a mentor your skills can be accelerated. I'm sure if you and myself had the same info or routine
from a book, your performance and take of the same material would be far superior than mine.
Practical Mental Effects, Corinda, and even my own stuff, aren't the "real work."
Gotta disagree and never meant it in that context, all of them including your works are on my top shelf.
The real work is how you process that information.
Message:
Posted by: JanForster (Mar 22, 2013 7:12am)
Quote:

... But my point still stands, I doubt very much that you have put
*everything* out ...
Nobody could even if he would like to do so... The main point is YOU ... Impossible to put out. Jan
Message:
Hmmm I think everyone I've posted about in this thread has contributed real work...in the forms of
books and DVD - and I think the rare stuff you might be alluding to is also in some books like webers
maximum entertainment
As an educator - we have a concept called distributed learning and you get the most powerful impact
thru multiple forms - e.g. I have picked up real principles of the art by a combination of things...
Including e boards like this (where I met mentors or see excellent posts), books (13 steps has still
principles in it I use today!!!) , DVD (banachek metal bending eg - but I like all the nuances and psych
you see they might not be actively teaching but you can pick up), and in person coffee discussion (yes
being with like minded passion of the art people is important), watching others (toronto we are lucky we get many chances e.g. From major pres angles to the little tips e.g. How to use sticky tape fir
envelopes to let a spec open it quicker and more theatrically to how to dot a folded paper to open it up
orientation correct for a reveal etc etc )and a major one - performing yourself (!! Yes you will learn the
most if you reflect - or get a colleague or director ( that really is powerful - I did it and learned tons of
theatrical things!!) - each has pros and cons and as a gestalt bam!!!!! I don't want to go on but there is
evidence in literature about this.
The secret is there is no real secret - but as a mentor told me once - if you are certain you have found
the truth - you missed the boat. Or,as someone else said - help and trust those who seek the truth...
Beware those who claim they found it!!!!!
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Message:
Posted by: David Numen (Mar 22, 2013 10:08am)
I hope the Emperor does have clothes because I can't think of a single mentalist I'd want to see naked.
If someone's cracked the gag already, my apologies. It took less time to write than it did to wade thru
this thread.
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Van Van Mojo (Mar 22, 2013 10:35am)
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 10:08, David Numen wrote:

I hope the Emperor does have clothes because I can't think of a single
mentalist I'd want to see naked.
Angela Funovits
Message:
Posted by: catweazle (Mar 22, 2013 12:07pm)
Good call sir!

Message:
Posted by: David Numen (Mar 22, 2013 12:14pm)
This is true but then if she was willing to go nude she wouldn't have to waste her time with the whole
mentalism thing. :)
Message:
First of she'd be an empress - not an emperor

Second of all, not sure if I'd classify her a mentalist - she does mental magic but she is more into cards
and close up magic
Third of all, she is a nice person and I communicate with her... as she is also in the healthcare field.
Fourth of all, she does have the drive to take risks and develop performance skills.
Fifth she does not sell anything in terms of books or DVDs at this time.
So, I doubt the thread is about her.
Yes, I know you are joking, but since she is a colleague, please don't go to far into basement humour
please.
Thanks!
Message:
Posted by: dmoses (Mar 22, 2013 1:16pm)
Man, I've resisted posting on this thread from the very first post but everything that's gone down here
suggests to me the real value of a forum like this:
to develop mature relationships with like minded people... maybe even friendships that can, over time,
develop into a network of trusted opinions.
And like any worthwhile relationships they require "give" as well as "take"... as well as some risk, and a
little time.
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It's the surest, if slowest, way to discover the real value that is out there.
d
Message:
Posted by: Drewmcadam (Mar 22, 2013 6:08pm)
What a remarkable thread... I am amazed it has taken everybody this long to catch on! I have seen so
many books and DVD's of recycled effects, given a tweak or two (not necessarily improvements) and
then sold for an absolute fortune. Sometimes these effects are based on a single "ploy", that gives you
the "hang on, I've seen this somewhere before" feeling. But the prices... I mean, the prices!
Of course, had you paid $100 for something that turns out to be recycled stuff (and if you're a newbie,
you're not going to know that it's re-packaged classic stuff), and you don't think it's very goods, you're
hardly going to say - so it adds to the plethora of "this guy is a genius / cutting-edge material nonsense."
I find it amazing that the likes of Bob Cassidy, whose stuff has been recycled, repackaged and give a
tweak or two, managed to keep his cool when these people are churning out "limited edition"
manuscripts that cost a week's wages.
Of course, their sales pitch is targeted at the newer performer, because they won't recognise it for what
it is - until it's too late.
I am glad - but not surprised - that performers are beginning to catch on to this.
It took a long time.
Message:
When I made my last post, it was indeed referring to "bits of business", stagecraft and the like, not
individual works or authors and creators. What Bob said about Annemann and Corinda and how that
informed what he created is totally on point with my mentor's teachings, one gets the "real work" from
the foundational books, the authors of many of which are now gone, though there are some living today
who we are lucky to still learn from. Bob, E. Raymond Carlyle to name a couple.
What I've observed firsthand is that a lot of what is labelled "Mentalism" seems to be a lot of longwinded, convoluted card tricks packaged in shiny boxes with DVD's. And if you were to observe some
circles, you'd come away thinking that Mentalism as it is today is not even meant for laymen or
performance at all, it's just a side tangent from magic that is the exclusive bailiwick of magicians buying
the latest non-commercial (commercial in this case meaning for a pro, semi-pro or working performer to
perform in paid or otherwise professional-caliber gigs) tricks marketed specifically to them to do (I don't
use the term "perform", because what I've often observed can hardly be called that) for each other. Stuff
for magicians to buy to show other magicians because most laymen who would be subjected to them
would likely neither be able to keep up with or be in any way entertained by what is going on in front of
them, usually replete with "What I'm gonna do now" and "What I want you to do" repeated ad nauseum
and interjected with the occasional in-joke that only a magician would get.
Is the above description what the field, the Art of Mentalism really is? No. But sometimes it becomes
hard to see that for all the "new" stuff that is marketed for the sole purpose of selling to those who have
no foundation in Mentalism and just want to be handed everything.
Does this apply to Jerome? To Bob? Not at all - a $50 or even a $700 manuscript that reflects years of
painstaking work and honing in the trenches and is totally road-tested and proven is pure gold to right
person, whether in the form of contributing to their income and continuing gig work, or perhaps their
evolution as a performer, whether paid or not.
Message:
Page 61 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 18:08, Drewmcadam wrote:

Of course, had you paid $100 for something that turns out to be recycled
stuff (and if you're a newbie, you're not going to know that it's re-packaged
classic stuff), and you don't think it's very goods, you're hardly going to say
- so it adds to the plethora of "this guy is a genius / cutting-edge material
nonsense." I find it amazing that the likes of Bob Cassidy, whose stuff has
been recycled, repackaged and give a tweak or two, managed to keep his
cool when these people are churning out "limited edition" manuscripts that
cost a week's wages.
You put the point better than I sir. I do not want Bob or any of the other genuine guys to think this
refers to them. Indeed this thread is a timely reminder to everyone as to where the genuine stuff is which is of course, where it always was!
Message:
The Genuine stuff is not always were it seems....

And a wonderful line we should also reflect on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxXmoWkQhBI
And if you say "Well he's just a magician!" well, too bad for you!
Message:
Posted by: lostpoet (Mar 22, 2013 9:09pm)
Quote:
On 2013-03-21 17:38, hypblake wrote:

Having said that how cool would it be to see a WWE showdown? I'd go
against you Jerome if nobody else has the guts ;)
p.s. I hold the right to back out of that without looking like a "pansy"
I'll take both of you on in that type of "how cool would it be" match. Handicapped, Jerome can tag you in
at anytime (if he can).
Serious note- I understand where you're coming from and blessed you are to be using Jerome's hypnosis
teachings to base your career upon. Jerome knows how to teach what he has been taught and writes
well.
But what of this $50,000 challenge? Let's here the rules of this idea... I'll do it for far less, I ain't hard to
please.
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What is the game?

Guts? hahaha
Meet one that does.
Message:
The testosterone challenge.

I do not know about your guys but I REALLY want to know which mentalist can beat up which other
mentalist - it should be on TV.
We could call it, 'Mentalist's Playground'.
Message:
Na, s**tcan TV, youtube is a bigger audience. :online:

You have ringside seats if it happens.
Message:
Good grief!
Message:
Actually, having some knowledge of marketing men. It is not unusual for them to confuse marketing
aggression for physical aggression. They sort of get all 'pumped up' and go all adolescent on ya.
It can be quite disturbing when they are in the same room. However, when they hide under one of their
pseudonyms on an internet forum it is less so.
Still, I did want to support the dawning of good sense here. But the air still smells bad. So I will leave
you guys to it.
Good luck - integrity is at stake.
Message:
Youtube has a billion viewer's (so I'm told from mainstream media reports). Don't get me wrong, I'm
open to TV too. The more the merrier. We just need a billion-wide audience to handle some of the ego's
involved. So I'm thinking big.
Message:
Hmmmm I keep detecting a pull of entropy to chaos and kipple

http://mykipple.com/
Yet this thread need not degenerate into decay..... I have no wish to watch anyone get clobbered....
There is redemption and ***ation all around!!!!
But here is a clip to sublimate some of the feelings around here - I like it but it makes much more
dramatic climatic sense if you understand the protagonist and villain have been coming together
throughout the film to his one point... And the villain killed the hero's girlfriend -and the hero has his own
innocent blood on his hands... Heck just watch the full film.... But here you go.... Then all go hug (if
nefesch ever releases his effect yuk yuk)
Oh yeah put on full screen and put the vol to 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfSLgWkTlY
Message:

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2013-04-03 4:33 PM
*hear
:o:
Message:
Kipple? Are you callin' me a chickenhead? I'm gonna turn my mood organ to 7, "A feeling of delight and
manliness".
Message:
Not what it is about at all... No one here on this thread is a chicken or needs to prove manhood that I'm
aware of. Take the challenge was the proposal, why fault one for accepting?
Message:
Wow... Man's best friends have attacked my pm box.

Fair enough, have fun.
I'm outta here.
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-22 22:49, lostpoet wrote:

Not what it is about at all... No one here on this thread is a chicken or needs
to prove manhood that I'm aware of. Take the challenge was the proposal,
why fault one for accepting?
He is making in jokes to blade runner themes I invoked.... But only if you read the book not the
movie.....
Anyway, I didn't think thus thread was about UFC
Message:
Quote:

I'm outta here.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k
Message:
http://youtu.be/Np6gyUb0E7o
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-18 12:09, Godzilla wrote:

I have a Challenge to all you guys on,Penny!
Let's see who can be the,nicest?
Here I'll start...
If loving you all is Wrong,I don't want to be Right! :)
I made a challenge on 03/18/2013.

No,pansies accepted,or any other flowers! :)
Message:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DEoOdcYKbc
I think this about says it all...
Message:
Posted by: takeachance (Mar 23, 2013 12:45am)
Quote:

I'm outta here.
What happened????????
Message:
Well In an attempt to stave off the inevitable ruin of this thread.... I shall carry on with my usual
Page 65 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
installments.
Today I will type praise to someone often forgotten as a real passionate developer of mentalism effects
as his range is vast....
T A WATERS
I doubt he dipped a monkey in toxic glowing gunk..... But beyond that - you can find many of his works
in mind myth and magick - and there is sooooooo much in there it's amazing..... My fav of course are
psych subtl. I've seen the greats like max maven and others use in their actual shows over and over
again..... People still love building variations of his boxes.... And so much more. I bring him up next as
despite one of the material may be conjecture or a good idea on paper (or just wrong like the simian
cruelty...., which I not think he or anyone else ever did (I hope)) ..... It's full of amazing things that can
be used in the real world and less than $150.
So, I doubt the thread has to do with him.... Even if the demon is bogus.
Message:
Posted by: Lucien Astor (Mar 23, 2013 1:06pm)
Quote:
So, I doubt the thread has to do with him.... Even if the demon is bogus.
Don't make a monkey out of him!

Message:
Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 24, 2013 5:23am)
I've been away most of the week with only my phone to check for new posts. If you've tried to post
comments here using only your phone you'll understand why I avoided it.
So much has happened in this thread. My original post could have been posed like this: "I see highpriced material on the market that I don't find much value in, yet there are so many lower-priced
releases I've found great stuff in and would have paid more for. Is it just me?" The answer was no.
Art is subjective. There are $300 books that are worth $3,000 and there are $300 books that are worth
$30, partly depending on who's reading and how useful the material is to them. Should everything be
sold for an amateur price? No. But there better be significant social proof for a $200 book offered by an
invisible author. This can be done by trusted endorsement or better yet by showing the work in action.
I'm not against making big purchases - I'm not just a $15-ebook guy. When I do spend hundreds, I want
to get what I pay for. Generally I'm happy with my purchases thanks to unbiased reviews from friends
and others. As Doug said earlier in this thread, there's no hurry to buy a new book and it's nice to have a
knowledgeable friend to check with first. Will the material be well-suited for my character? Knowing what
kind of content to expect helps. I believe new creators are better served to price their first offerings
affordably to build trust within their market before asking for big money.
Since I've hardly changed my show in over a year (and don't plan to anytime soon) it's hard to justify big
purchases. There are too many books and not enough time to read, let alone test the material. At this
stage it's better for me to refine what I'm already doing. The real secrets are not on the next page or in
the next book, but in the thousands of performance hours that lie ahead.
Message:
Welcome back Mike! Your baby has grown!

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Here ar some links when thinking about subjective art...

http://www.ehow.com/how_2282314_evaluate-information-objectively.html
https://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf
Message:
I remember hours of pleasure, reading T.A. Waters MM&M ! So many creative ideas and clever ruses.
Message:
Posted by: edh (Mar 25, 2013 12:02am)
Quote:

Quote:

This is not at snipe at you Mr Fingers, but I always
thought the first step in keeping things from the
'merely curious' would be to not flog it on the Caf?
WE TAKE THIS BREAK FROM OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM

I guess it gets back to what is flogging? If someones every post (or 7/10
posts) always refers to their own work and how to get it, I'd feel it was
flogging. Or if any people are always saying how great something is over
and over without any objective descriptions of WHY its great... that could be
flogging too...
I especially thinks its flogging when someone doesn't bother to even buy an
ad but figures ways to advertise here anyway! Good example of a good egg
is Dr Bill again - for his ebooks he always takes out an ad - puts maybe one
post up about his work - and then many people chime in with objective
reasons why his stuff is great etc and he just thanks them... and then
doesn't refer to his work very often again unless highly relevent to a
discussion topic.
That being said, as above illustrates, I think its OK for creators to talk about
their stuff and toot the horn once in a while - its the extremism that makes
it feel flogged.
(Notice how I got an extra kudos to Dr Bill in there :)))
END OF SIDEBOX
Page 67 of 96
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Hey!!!....I know someone like that. ;)

Message:
Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Mar 28, 2013 6:48am)
Just discover that some "limited" books are now beeing offered in EBOOK form ?
http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finley-all-available/
These are the currently available manuscripts from Jerome Finley. They are all instant downloads. We
assume you know what you are buying!
- Guerilla Q&A $399
- Psychic Directions $149
- Thought Channel 2 $60
I'm amazed since GUERILLA was limited to 50 manuscript, and that was a major selling point...
It's perhaps the book I've reread the most, and by far the best book on the subject.
Original sell-thread : "Like Thought Dial, my Guerilla Q&A will be limited to 50 physical manuscripts,
signed and shipped immediately by yours truly"
Is it to play with the word "Physical" ?
This is not a good news for original buyers...
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-28 06:48, Aymeric de Valon wrote:

Just discover that some "limited" books are now beeing offered in EBOOK
form ?
These are the currently available manuscripts from Jerome Finley. They are
all instant downloads. We assume you know what you are buying!
- Guerilla Q&A $399
- Psychic Directions $149
- Thought Channel 2 $60
I'm amazed since GUERILLA was limited to 50 manuscript, and that was a
major selling point...
Page 68 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
It's perhaps the book I've reread the most, and by far the best book on the
subject.
Original sell-thread : "Like Thought Dial, my Guerilla Q&A will be limited
to 50 physical manuscripts, signed and shipped immediately by yours truly"
Is it to play with the word "Physical" ?
This is not a good news for original buyers...
I suggest you start a new thread on this if you wish - last time we had a discussion like this regarding
related issues the nature thread got wiped.... Oh well I go back this up in anticipation.
Message:
As stated,maybe a new thread should be started on the above,it has been one of the major topics of
late!
Message:
Posted by: tboehnlein (Mar 28, 2013 9:52pm)
Just began reading this thread, I find it interesting that Jerome went on a tirade, though no one
mentioned his name prior. It was said previously that the market determines the price, true but so does
the hype.
Message:
Posted by: PhilDean (Mar 28, 2013 10:34pm)
I'm somewhat new to the scene and have been reading a lot of material in the last year so I'll throw in
my worthless opinion. A lot of mentalism literature (not naming any names and no one here) is utter
********. I think a lot of it is misdirection to throw people off their original interest. A lot of the 'risk'
stuff just plain doesn't work. I've tried one as an experiment where the literature said 90% of people will
answer like this - NOT ONE of the subjects I tested out of more than 50 people reacted as advised and I
followed the instruction to the letter. Some packaged tricks appear to be sold with awesome looking
trailers involving stooges, but again I'm not naming names as it's not the point of my post. I guess
mentalism is one of those fields where only those with an attentive brain can succeed. I can imagine
many people would spend years wasting their time on certain things where the professional mentalist
(possibly the one who sold the book) will be sitting back laughing all the way to the bank. Again, not
directed at anyone I've seen here. You chaps are A OK.
Call it the misguided observation of a complete noob.
Message:
Posted by: edh (Mar 28, 2013 10:36pm)
Could it be guilty conscious?

Message:
Quote:
On 2013-03-28 21:52, tboehnlein wrote:

Just began reading this thread, I find it interesting that Jerome went on a
tirade, though no one mentioned his name prior. It was said previously that
the market determines the price, true but so does the hype.
Page 69 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Posts,have been deleted and edited...

Message:
Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Mar 29, 2013 5:46am)
Just to add :
I've bought the vast majority of Finley's works, spending $$$$$.
I don't know him, and haven't seen him as a performer.
Nevertheless, it's for me, no question asked, the best material out there.
I use it in each and every show I do. In fact, 2/3 of my show comes from ideas from Finley that I've
adapted to suit my style.
For me and the way I've chosen to follow, it's as simple as that : it works !
And all the people who have seen my shows can attests that it rocks very hard...
The second thing is that I haven't read a lot of things nearer than Finley's writings in quality.
The last thing is that for a professional performer, selling our shows thousands (mine is about 2200$),
it's very easy to have X times the return in investment. Think of all the things you've bought over the
year... How many do you really use and get money from it ? How many books, DVD, tricks have you
bought ? I'm very happy for my money. I don't buy a lot of things else than Finley's and Riggs' ones. In
fact, if you don't perform, it's a lot of money for sure... but you perhaps don't have to buy it, even if M.
Finley is a perfect seller. And if you're a mentalist doing book test, chair test and prediction, for sure it
will be difficult to suit your style... and I wouldn't recommand it. These are 2 different ways of
mentalism, both praiseworthy, and both included under the same word MENTALIST. There should be 2
words.
Last point, having discussed by email some times with him, he has always answered in details and pre
BUT here are some points I don't like :

1) Buying "exclusive" things that are published another time in another of his writing (there are A LOT of
repetitive works)
2) Having ebooks and not books as promised (I had that one time in the past). More generally, selling
ebooks and not books is a pity, specially for such incredible work.
3) Having him tell in each experience that he has done it since 99 years and many thousands of times :)
In all of his 20+ writings, he must perform day and night since 200 years :) I personnaly haven't more
than 10 stage effects, almost always the same since X years.
4) Seeing his reaction in this thread. Which for me is more a teenager reaction (who has the biggest ?) in
front of argued posts. Especially when he could have a lot of things to answer in a serious discussion.
I've been amazed of such posts and couldn't think it was the same author and performer that advocate
peace, empathy, serious discussion, advice and reflexion.
5) Last thing, which drove me to the previous post : seeing that some EXCLUSIVE work was now sold in
EBOOK form. GUERILLA is one of his best writings for me, as long as PSM. One of the major selling point
IS the exclusivity.
Page 70 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Seeing that it's now in EBOOK form and not limited is disrespectful for his previous buyers and followers.
==> Why not going on and putting some other, even all of his previous works in EBOOK form ??? or in
another whole book ? Just to make $$ ?
For sure the thunder mutters...
These were the factual things I relate to this topic.
Message:
Hi ameryc,
This is not a unique issue unfortunately but I believe the issues you raise are slightly off topic - the
second part of the post... So here you are!
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=505901&forum=15#0
Lets see what happens.
The first part of the post seems to me on topic which is if you spend a lot of dough is the material
workable!!!
There is another topic hidden all these posts anyway..... The fact that some of the material that works is
not really the material of the seller.... It's been taken and used without credit.... But you can tell
sometimes by a body of work... Just like reading essays etc for plagerism,,. Where suddenly some
material seems totally different in voice, character and use,,, and the stuff that doesn't work well is in
another voice /style completely... If you mark papers or review submissions for journals you might
understand what I am babbling about.
Between marketing promises, material that works, and material that may not even be the persons, and
other wonderful things... What a fun interesting field this is!!!!!
:band:
Message:
Amazing - the thread I started got wiped out of existence.

really moderators... why???? Move it if you must... but why erase it????
Oh well. Guess this thread might get wiped too.
Message:
Posted by: eric6 (Mar 29, 2013 2:14pm)
Aymeric,
I do agree nearly on every thing you said in your post.
I don't know if the begining of this thread was aimed at Jerome or not but when I began reading it I
could't help but think it was. Even if it was not the case. I think that what Jerome wrote was really over
reacting and at the same time I understand that he feeled targeted.
It just mean that you never know how people will interpret of what you say or write...
It's surely also the case of what I wrote above ;))
A great week-end to every one with peace
Page 71 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Quote:
On 2013-03-29 05:46, Aymeric de Valon wrote:

Just to add :
I've bought the vast majority of Finley's works, spending $$$$$.
I don't know him, and haven't seen him as a performer.
Nevertheless, it's for me, no question asked, the best material out there.
I use it in each and every show I do. In fact, 2/3 of my show comes from
ideas from Finley that I've adapted to suit my style.
For me and the way I've chosen to follow, it's as simple as that : it works !
And all the people who have seen my shows can attests that it rocks very
hard...
The second thing is that I haven't read a lot of things nearer than Finley's
writings in quality.
The last thing is that for a professional performer, selling our shows
thousands (mine is about 2200$), it's very easy to have X times the return
in investment. Think of all the things you've bought over the year... How
many do you really use and get money from it ? How many books, DVD,
tricks have you bought ? I'm very happy for my money. I don't buy a lot of
things else than Finley's and Riggs' ones. In fact, if you don't perform, it's a
lot of money for sure... but you perhaps don't have to buy it, even if M.
Finley is a perfect seller. And if you're a mentalist doing book test, chair test
and prediction, for sure it will be difficult to suit your style... and I wouldn't
recommand it. These are 2 different ways of mentalism, both praiseworthy,
and both included under the same word MENTALIST. There should be 2
words.
Last point, having discussed by email some times with him, he has always
answered in details and pre
BUT here are some points I don't like :

1) Buying "exclusive" things that are published another time in another of
his writing (there are A LOT of repetitive works)
2) Having ebooks and not books as promised (I had that one time in the
past). More generally, selling ebooks and not books is a pity, specially for
such incredible work.
3) Having him tell in each experience that he has done it since 99 years and
many thousands of times :) In all of his 20+ writings, he must perform day
and night since 200 years :) I personnaly haven't more than 10 stage
effects, almost always the same since X years.
4) Seeing his reaction in this thread. Which for me is more a teenager
reaction (who has the biggest ?) in front of argued posts. Especially when
he could have a lot of things to answer in a serious discussion. I've been
amazed of such posts and couldn't think it was the same author and
Page 72 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
performer that advocate peace, empathy, serious discussion, advice and

reflexion.
5) Last thing, which drove me to the previous post : seeing that some
EXCLUSIVE work was now sold in EBOOK form. GUERILLA is one of his best
writings for me, as long as PSM. One of the major selling point IS the
exclusivity.
Seeing that it's now in EBOOK form and not limited is disrespectful for his
previous buyers and followers.
==> Why not going on and putting some other, even all of his previous
works in EBOOK form ??? or in another whole book ? Just to make $$ ?
For sure the thunder mutters...
These were the factual things I relate to this topic.
Message:
Eric6,I agree people will read,as how they read it!

But,I do not think Mikes OP,was targeted at Jerome!
I never read it that way,anyway! And,you do not see Jerome's stuff listed over in 'Let's Make a Magic
Deal'!
All,need to read the OP again!
Peace
Message:
Posted by: eric6 (Mar 29, 2013 7:22pm)
OH I was a bit unprecise about the biginning of the thread. It was not specificly about Mikes post at first
but the feeling (not a fact...) I got about the thread in the first few exchanges. But indeed I'm not a
mindreader so I can't speak for those who wrote.
It show that sometimes with different contexts communication could be a difficult art to master whatever
we try to be understood.
Ask my ex wife... ;)
Message:
Posted by: tboehnlein (Mar 30, 2013 12:57pm)
Ay Meric, let me ask you have purchased or reviewed material by Robert Nelson, Anneman,Anderson &
Corinda here lies gold. Not to mention the likes of Bob Cassidy.
Message:
Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 1, 2013 12:38pm)
I love April fool's day ! :)

Can I offer all the FINLEY's ebooks I've bought $$$$ and own for this day for free if you PM me and just
ask ? :)
For sure I have to check again the words EXCLUSIVE and SECRET in the dictionnary...
Page 73 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Jerome Finley All Available

Posted on March 17, 2013 by DanS
These are the currently available manuscripts from Jerome Finley. They are all instant downloads. We
assume you know what you are buying!
Forbidden Mentalism/Farewell Book Combo $395
Full Contact Mind Reading $399
Guerilla Q&A $399
The Professionals Choice I $300
The Professionals Choice II $300
The Professionals Choice III $300
The Professionals Choice I, II, & III $666
Psychic Directions $149
Psycho-Spiritual Mentalism $300
Random Acts of Kindness $60
S.O.S. $199
T & R $300
The Taboo Treatise $1,000
Thought Channel $120
Thought Channel 2 $60
Thought Dial $300
Thought Veil $495
- eric6 : thanks !
- tboehnlein, for sure, I'm open minded, but like everybody I have favorite :P
- Godzilla : as for me, as soon as I've read the first post, Jerome was the one and only one in my mind...
and I don't think I'm a newbie to mentalism... only to english language ! And as explained, I do not
necessarly agree since his material rocks the house... I've never read and used something as powerfull
as his writings except for Anderson's DM ; but I do NOT like his manners to make money on the back of
dead troutes like me...
Message:
Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 1, 2013 1:00pm)

Page 74 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Hi Ameryc,
I tried to start a thread for you - but it keeps getting erased!
Watch out... ever read "VANISHING ACT" By Matheson? Thank goodness I channel Rod Serling...
although he too got wiped out at the end of season 1 of TZ.... hmmmm
As for selling books for free... that would be unethical! But a Dollar can work! Not sure on the ethics of
reselling ebooks - but hey, I'm told constantly what I thought was ethical and moral is totally topsy
turvy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85cL1HisrNc
Message:
Haha Bruce :)
Thanks for the (erased) thread
best
Message:
Posted by: bdekolta (Apr 1, 2013 2:18pm)
Quote:
Can I offer all the FINLEY's ebooks I've bought $$$$ and own for this day
for free if you PM me and just ask ?
Well you have to live with your own conscience - but on a larger scale we all have to decide whether to
be part of the problem or part of the solution.
While the topic here is primarily price/value we have strayed in to exclusivity. I am personal friends with
some of the most creative among us. One in particular has stopped producing anything because of being
ripped off by dealers. How much worse is it when you are ripped off by teams of people with no respect
for I.P. because they have an Internet connection?
The friend I was referring to is John Cornelius. Pen Thru Dollar, Thought Transmitter, etc. All heavily
ripped off and drove John, one of the absolute most creative among us, underground. He is still there if
you know where to find him. I still use an impression device he sold me in the early 1980's. Everyone I
show it to finds it amazing, and it is amazing. But you can't buy it because of the rip offs.
To be clear I own DeeperSecrets.com and everything being sold is will full permission of the authors
including Jerome. If you are on his mailing list you received an announcement yesterday about an
upcoming teleconference. If you want to know about the call you have to be on the list. That said I'm
sure some "helpful" person will post the details here. But you want access to the man - I'm trying to
provide some.
I know it is fun to sit and toss stones around on the Internet but there are always two sides to every
story. Although to find that out you have to be open to listening. Docc Hilford and I have spent long
hours discussing the in's and out's of this topic. There are no easy answers.
But toward that end I am currently working on some ideas to help the original purchasers feel a bit
Page 75 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
better about all this. More information later. If you want to be kept in the loop get on Jerome's mailing
list and the DeeperSecrets.com list. I'm not Penguin you won't be getting a hyped up message each day
for a rehashed card trick.
Back to this thread you can find out exactly who Mike was referring to by reading his followup posts on
this very thread. And that isn't me dissing on Mike. He and I have actually sat down for lunch and
discussed these things.
As for not being able to see performances - well I am biased there too. I have things I show magicians
and things I try to keep as far away from them as possible. Why? They steal it. When I walk in the magic
shop and see my presentations being used for the demo's my heart just sinks. (Not referring to you
Mike!)
Not on Jerome's mailing list? It is here: http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf
Buy his stuff here: http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finley-all-available/
And as always feel free to contact me directly although email is best.
~ DanS aka Dan Strange
Message:
Posted by: parmenion (Apr 1, 2013 3:57pm)
I'm with Aymeric on this one!

I think I bought almost all his book.
I like Jerome's material and I think it's really amazing BUT... I feel cheated as it was a so called limited
release, so expensive...
I even don't talk about "Taboo" where I had to sign a DNA and the pdf was protected so it was
impossible to print it and now no DNA anymore and I'm sure you can print it...
I don't like to talk about that on a public forum, it's useless, but I think on this one it concern everyone
purchase so called limited book priced high.
Jerome, I'm so upset, believe me! I'm not joking on this one.
Anyway Jeromes not the only one do to that, unfortunately.
Message:
Posted by: eric6 (Apr 1, 2013 4:02pm)
I do feel sad about this also but I wait to ear the other side of this
Message:
Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof soon.... How do you do 9 pages easy?
Prediction - the driver in the van is the metaphor of the thread.... He goes off the rails and side chase
occurs... Friends abandon each other... Then squish poof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&v=FftEeQmuDWM
Message:
Posted by: duanebarry (Apr 1, 2013 5:03pm)
Quote:
Dr Spektor wrote:
Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof soon.... How do you do 9
pages easy?
Page 76 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Scroll up to the top of the page and find the line with the topic subject. Look all the way to the right, and
see the Printer icon. Click it and it'll show the whole thread all on one giant page.
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-04-01 17:03, duanebarry wrote:

Quote:
Dr Spektor wrote:
Ok time to download the thread.... It's gonna poof
soon.... How do you do 9 pages easy?
Scroll up to the top of the page and find the line with the topic subject. Look
all the way to the right, and see the Printer icon. Click it and it'll show the
whole thread all on one giant page.
Thanks db!!!
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Van Van Mojo (Apr 1, 2013 6:27pm)
Quote:
On 2013-04-01 14:18, bdekolta wrote:

To be clear I own DeeperSecrets.com and everything being sold is will full
permission of the authors including Jerome.
I know it is fun to sit and toss stones around on the Internet but there are
always two sides to every story. Although to find that out you have to be
open to listening. Docc Hilford and I have spent long hours discussing the
in's and out's of this topic. There are no easy answers.
But toward that end I am currently working on some ideas to help the
original purchasers feel a bit better about all this. More information later. If
you want to be kept in the loop get on Jerome's mailing list and the
DeeperSecrets.com list. I'm not Penguin you won't be getting a hyped up
message each day for a rehashed card trick.
~ DanS aka Dan Strange
How nice that Jerome gave full permission to sell more of his limited manuscripts.
Page 77 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
It's not fun to throw stones. People are getting sick and tired of being lied to. Alexander Nelson, Docc
Hilford (TRESLIBRE anyone? "limited, available for a brief time" but still being sold over 2 years later),
and now Jerome. I'm sure there's more. Do people not realize there are laws against false advertising?
Or do they just not care and think because this is such a small, obscure industry that it will never be
noticed or acted upon?
I would think the original purchasers don't just want to feel "a bit" better about all this. It better be a
FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be much more appreciated. Nice knock on Penguin, they may
send a lot of emails but at least they can be trusted to do the right thing.
The Federal Trade Commission Act exists to prohibit unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting
commerce. Someday someone is liable to pursue a lawsuit if they get fed up enough.
Message:
Posted by: dmoses (Apr 1, 2013 6:35pm)
Quote:
On 2013-04-01 15:57, parmenion wrote:

I'm with Aymeric on this one!
I think I bought almost all his book.
I like Jerome's material and I think it's really amazing BUT... I feel cheated
as it was a so called limited release, so expensive...
I even don't talk about "Taboo" where I had to sign a DNA and the pdf was
protected so it was impossible to print it and now no DNA anymore and I'm
sure you can print it...
I don't like to talk about that on a public forum, it's useless, but I think on
this one it concern everyone purchase so called limited book priced high.
Jerome, I'm so upset, believe me! I'm not joking on this one.
Anyway Jeromes not the only one do to that, unfortunately.
Message:
Posted by: Godzilla (Apr 1, 2013 6:53pm)
This Limited Stuff,is to Justify the Higher prices on release!

It,is all a sales pitch!
Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the customer after purchase!
Again,a new thread needs to be started,as has been stated!
Maybe,the Mods would be so kind to let the new thread,remain for a bit?
Message:
To be clear I would advise anyone against using Limited Edition in this day and age. And limited is
usually not to justify higher prices. You can believe that or not but it is the case.
Godzilla said:
Quote:
Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the customer after purchase!
I am actually offended by this. Anyone who has been "uncared for after purchase" by myself, or Docc
please let me know. I think our track record there speaks for itself. I have only worked with Jerome a
Page 78 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
short time so no track record there except for my own experience purchasing from him. Never had a
problem. Richard Webster - more than cordial in all our dealings.
Dr. Van Van Mojo
Quote:
I would think the original purchasers don't just want to feel "a bit" better
about all this. It better be a FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be
much more appreciated.
I believe honesty is what I was bringing and offering. If you are expecting "FANTASTIC" you are likely to
be disappointed. I intend to do what we can do. If you want to hear what Jerome has to say get on the
list and be on the call. Beyond that I open to suggestions - privately and preferably by email - and a
reasonable person to correspond with.
And let us cut the hyperbole down to size and quit tossing threats around as that gets us nowhere.
Recent customer service honesty example - when Docc released the updated Richey Technique we ran
into *many* technical issues getting it ready to deliver. I wrote and honestly explained what was going
and still had people writing me accusing me of using hype to get early sales. It wasn't. So even honesty
is not always appreciated.
I am not here to get in a ****ing match although it seems that is what some are after.
Hope something there is useful to someone.
~ Dan
Message:
Quote:

To be clear I would advise anyone against using Limited Edition in this day
and age. And limited is usually not to justify higher prices. You can believe
that or not but it is the case.
Godzilla said:
Quote:
Another concern,is the blatant uncaring of the
customer after purchase!
I am actually offended by this. Anyone who has been "uncared for after
purchase" by myself, or Docc please let me know. I think our track record
there speaks for itself.
Page 79 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
First part I agree 100%!

I am offended ,as this has happened several times in the past!
More persons are starting to stand up on this issue,and in the past,if someone would stand up and make
a genuine concern stated,they would get bullied on!
Tis a shame,that many of those post have vanished!!! :(
My post was not pointed at you,Dan!
But,there is two sides to every coin!
I guess we all have a right to be offended!
Peace
~G
Message:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=568inXx6z0w
Don't worry mr kaiju we are still with you
:)
Plus you must watch this!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE
Message:
Quote:
Plus you must watch this!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE
Made me :)!
Message:
Posted by: Lucien Astor (Apr 1, 2013 8:26pm)
I am astounded people talk about the value of 'limited editions' when dealing with virtual commodities.
When I think limited edition I think: 1) books that are well produced and hand-numbered physical
objects, with no additional copies made (though further editions are possible, generally for the mass
market). 2) In the visual arts, prints that are hand-numbered, signed, and the original plates struck,
making more copies physically impossible. A limited edition is usually an investment with genuine
Page 80 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
secondary market value, but with ebooks, resale is ethically impossible. I think digital vendors should
stay true to the spirit of the term, especially with no secondary market for purchasers to recoup their
costs if they choose.
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Eamon (Apr 1, 2013 9:28pm)
What a thread.
I think the starter of this topic is correct in saying some books are to expensive and some are too cheap.
BUT
A: I do prefer to have an exclusive book/effect
B: I prefer to have strong material that really works for me
Unfortunately sometimes this will cost a lot, sometimes it doesn't...
John
Message:
Posted by: Mike Ince (Apr 1, 2013 9:31pm)
I agree it's probably time for another thread.

"Limited" is a hard promise to make. If the purpose is to keep the information exclusive, forget it. As Ben
Franklin wrote, "three may keep a secret if two of them are dead."
In this digital age, a physical manuscript may be sold as a limited edition but it will almost certainly be
scanned and shared. When you're a creator/publisher and you release a limited work you'll likely look on
with your hands tied as the work is shared with hundreds of people who did not pay for it. Creators who
don't make any promises of "limited editions" will save themselves trouble and avoid the temptation to
break their promise. Buyers who don't believe any such promises will save themselves frustration.
Message:
I would like to ad that I do NOT like it when I have paid a high price for a book, to see that it is
something that came from old (cheap) books and are only rewritten to the modern time.
People are also guilty themselves because most of them will always want to have the latest books. If you
read the old books, you will find just as much, but you have to use your own brain, to bring these ideas
to the modern time and create your own effects. These are the demonstrations that are exclusive,
strong and cheap.
In the past I have read many old books (like Ericksonian, NLP, mentalism) and I did read a lot of the
used techniques in the more and less expensive books later. Its a little frustrating, but on the other hand
many that didnt read these old books, just dont know, they will think its new and they will praise the
author of the new book
BTW If you promise a book to be a Limited release, you have to keep that promise!
It may be difficult or even cost you money at the end. But people will pay more for a limited release. The
moment the author or publisher decides to print more, all people that bought the book and trusted and
invested in this book, should be given the chance to return the book or otherwise they are ripped off!
PS Im not pointing a finger to anyone particular, but it has happened and it will happen again.
John
Page 81 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 2, 2013 4:41am)
At first, due to all these $399 and $199 prices and the amateurish looking of this web page, I thought it
was a fake, a funny april joke made by my good friend Aymeric. Then I clicked on a PayPal button,
thinking it would point to another funny page. When I realized that I was arrived on the real PayPal
website... I started to laugh. You can't imagine how much I laughed, but I'm sure it was more than a
$999 laugh !
----Self-edited message. Forum is not a good place to debate.
Message:
I am speaking in the abstract: I don't have any over-priced ebooks (I can think of a million other things I
would buy for that amount of money). But if I had, and was promised exclusivity (and that promise was
broken), I would have no ethical compunctions about re-selling mine.
Message:
Of course I agree with all the above posts...

Feeling ripped of is a soft euphemism... it sounds for me even more crazy since the material rocks !
lure of gain is an modern addiction. It affects even the "so called" most knowledgeable individuals
Trailer from SOS :

===========
"Im offering a complete SATISFACTION GUARANTEE for SOS; if for any reason you become unhappy
with this product or material your investment will be held the same as cash for ANY of my current or
future releases (excluding sold out items)."
=> I've becomed unhappy, and have explained the valid reasons.
ALL buyers will have the same feeling and will become unhappy.
Can I add the amount of all the ebooks since SOS that are now unlimited, even if they were sold as
exclusive ?
Perhaps will I buy a wandering soul... :)
Message:
Other tangible facts :

==========
M. Finley is one of the rare "exclusive" seller who doesn't number his publications.
Hilford, Mc Leod etc all put a number in each book or ebook when they sell exclusive material.
You know you've bought something and the number is respected.
==> I DON'T say it's not the case here. But....
M. Finley quite always sell his material 30 or 50 copies.
Page 82 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
We can calculate that's else he sold less than the number, else the exact number, else more.
(Else we can calculate the total amount if we have the time... without taxes )
In quite every thread, his books were sold out.
So he sold certainly the exact number.
Nothing on earth except his own soul (and stocked bank account) would be able to prove something else.
BUT without numbering items, it IS justifiable to think that the doubt exists.
One way to verify it would be to contact every posts on the Caf... and sometimes there were 20 pages !
Of course all buyer would not inevitably posts on the Caf...
As I'm very generous, I would add another point :)

Often his books were SOLD OUT
Interested persons that come after the passage of the train posted on the caf, saying they were
disappointing.
And suddenly, there was a Finley's post telling something like "write me a MP" or "I have just one left
copy you're lucky".
I just take the time to verify it in different old threads...
And to even prove it further, it's easy... I've been late for THOUGHT DIAL
It was written SOLD OUT weeks ago, I haven't seen it
I drop M. Finley a MP, "just in case"(acting like a Dead trout easy to deceive...)
And of course, in his own words :
[i]There are no plans to reprint my routine in any form or variation, I DO still have one copy of THOUGHT
DIAL I can part with if you're interested. {/i]
Luckily, for this last copy, it wasn't 300 $ but 350 $, just for me :)
As I've explained different times, I was loving his material, so no problem for me.
AND I WAS VERY HAPPY OF MY PURCHASE, even if I had the feeling of "more than 30..." but no matter.
Except for mentalism, I remember one time eating in a restaurant where I had problems.
Leaving the restaurant, I gave my business card tolding the owner he would have news soon
I've taken the time needed to write negative and real reviews in all forums, website etc for this
restaurant.
1 week later I receive a phone call for a free dinner
Of course I never went.
1 dissatisfied person speaks about it to 10
Good luck for selling more products M. Finley with such an offer
You can be sure that all your past customers will remember about all these facts... and write about it in
the Caf and else, and not all of them will be banned :)
That were just tangible food for your thoughts... :)

Message:
WOW
- Limited editions that are NOT numbered (at least very strange indeed)
Page 83 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
- SOLD OUT limited editions that are still sold using the Your lucky I have one left - Trick (I really hope
this is not thru)
- And asking $50.00 extra... (for danger of getting caught at it?)
I have nothing to prove any of this is thru, but I will do my research as always. And keep copies of the
threads on my computer (like a copy from this thread, that I really hope will not disappear!!!)
John
Message:
TIP!
Do you want a copy keep of a thread on your PC?
Just click on the printer icon at the top right of a thread, and you can copy and paste all pages of a
thread in one handling. Or just print it!
Fast and easy ;)
John
Message:
Good point cuz this thread is going to vanish soon,......!!!!

Hollis and Melipone are going to detonate the Human Decoy Explosive any second....!!!
Message:
Posted by: Christopher Gould (Apr 2, 2013 5:16pm)
Especially if I say.........
Message:
Shall I.... Shall I?

Message:
Nah.....I'm outta here......

Message:
Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 2, 2013 6:23pm)
I'm affraid that it is Jerome himself who open the Pandora box at the beginning of this thread, badly
reacting to my "cute" joke : monkey=1 / tiger=0. Be fair-play, I know you read us JF ;)
Be careful, we should avoid the bashing strategy, it produces martyrs and discredit legitimate initial
denonciations.
Act 2 : the redemption ?..
"L'enfant prodige fait son mea-culpa devant ses pairs en colre, rpare ses erreurs et s'engage dans la
voie rdemptrice du don de son savoir au bnfice de l'art".
Message:
Posted by: Jerome Finley (Apr 2, 2013 7:16pm)
What is there to be afraid of?

In the words of Jim Rose, "You guys are weaker than a packet of Kool-Aid in the ocean!"
Page 84 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
;)
I actually love this thread tons and hope it stays around for as long as possible (my sales are going through the
roof because of it).
Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense here? What's that? None? :) :) :)
From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23 extra sales because of you...not quite
sure but Dan will send me another full report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight.
Special thanks to Aymeric for linking DeeperSecrets.com multiple times, we appreciate your gracious
compliments and free advertising lots.
Of course you can find my page here for those who missed it last time: http://deepersecrets.com/jerome-finleyall-available/
And since Dr. Spektor seems to enjoy funny YouTube videos so much, here's my personal anthem for the day
and you can all take it to heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=KbW9JqM7vho&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKbW9JqM7vho&has_verified=1
EVIL BOY 4 LIFE!!! :)
Good fun,
JF.
Message:
http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/features/how-anger-hurts-your-heart
Money can't buy back health once lost
Anyway, where was I....oh yes!
My next installment;
GEORGE B. ANDERSON
This fellow developed numerous routine and concepts that have been taken up by others and expanded,
improved... Or just ripped off (you can tell the good creators by the number of times they get ripped
off).... My favourite of his is DYNAMITE MENTALISM..... A true gem that really set s new way of doing
q&a in print.... But he has so many wonderful things going back to magic digest and so much. This
thread could not be about him I hope. His stuff was very inexpensive.... But to do dynamite mentalism
requires the goods to do it right... I don't think it would work for everyone as it require chutzpah and
jazz. But it works for me. It also was written to the point, clear instructions, concepts and some cool add
ons and variations.
More to come if this thread doesn't go poof!
Message:
Well then it looks like YOU'RE out of a job, "Dr."

:)
Besides, who's angry?
Page 85 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Not me, I support this thread 100%

Message:
Posted by: tboehnlein (Apr 2, 2013 9:43pm)
That video shows about as little class as you are demonstrating right now, for a shaman you seem to be
expressing a lot of anger
Message:
Glad you liked it (they're very creative and one of my favorite talents out of South Africa).
:)
NEXT!
P.S. I thought for being a "mizzarist" or whatever he calls himself, the kind Dr. Bruce Ballon would be
fast to appreciate it.
Message:
Posted by: tboehnlein (Apr 2, 2013 9:53pm)
MISSED IT WHO ARE THEY? So we can determine your judgement of talent by you appreciating ths
talent
Message:
Gee jerome, for someone not angry you certainly post very angrily.
Not sure why I'd be out of a job. Things around here indicate unfortunately the contrary.
Anyway, I don't claim anything. I never claimed to be. In fact, I stopped calling myself a mizzarist and a
bunch of other things long ago. I'm just a shmoe who cares about the art. In fact, you know I not only
don't claim things, I disclaim most things especially any powers etc.
Well peace to you.
Now, can we get back go the thread or do you need to continue whatever it is you think you need to do?
Heck, whatever - you take over from here. Have fun!!!!
Message:
[quote]
On 2013-04-02 19:16, Jerome Finley wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=KbW9JqM7vho&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKbW9JqM7vho&has_verified=1
Jerome,I like videos,and it made me laugh!

But Dude,how about the next video having a little less Guy Junk,and a little more Girly Bits ! :)
~G
Page 86 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Message:
Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 2, 2013 10:21pm)
Who is the weird looking bloke? I've never heard of him. Does he sell expensive e-books, or what?
I've heard of Derren Brown and Bob Cassidy, Max Maven too, and David Berglas. Who is this person?
What is all this talk about shamans? Who on earth would start to make those sort of claims?
Outraged,
from Tunbridge Wells.
Message:
Maybe this thread should back to recognizing the good guys, rather than confrontation
New Installment of Great Contributors:
Dr. Spektor: This lover of our art has, at his expense, created websites and hosted open contests where
both physical objects and $1000 secrets have been GIVEN away to people interested in collaboration and
sharing. I applaud the ethos of his Carcosa contests. Next up for great people and thinkers we have met
here... (add here)
Message:
Posted by: Dr. Van Van Mojo (Apr 3, 2013 1:51am)
Quote:

Dr. Van Van Mojo
Quote:
I would think the original purchasers don't just
want to feel "a bit" better about all this. It better be
a FANTASTIC offer. I think honesty would be much
more appreciated.
I believe honesty is what I was bringing and offering. If you are expecting
"FANTASTIC" you are likely to be disappointed. I intend to do what we can
do. If you want to hear what Jerome has to say get on the list and be on the
call. Beyond that I open to suggestions - privately and preferably by email and a reasonable person to correspond with.
And let us cut the hyperbole down to size and quit tossing threats around as
that gets us nowhere.
Recent customer service honesty example - when Docc released the
updated Richey Technique we ran into *many* technical issues getting it
ready to deliver. I wrote and honestly explained what was going and still
had people writing me accusing me of using hype to get early sales. It
wasn't. So even honesty is not always appreciated.
I am not here to get in a ****ing match although it seems that is what
Page 87 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
some are after.

Hope something there is useful to someone.
~ Dan
I fail to see any hyperbole or threats in my post you took the excerpt from. BTW it wasn't necessarily
directed at you, just trying to make a point. Maybe someone involved with the falsely advertised items
will reply. I'm not the only one interested in what they have to say about the items that were not sold as
they were advertised.
Message:
Posted by: seadog93 (Apr 3, 2013 2:58am)
I might have something thoughtful and interesting to add to this conversation,

...but I have no idea what it might be because I'm still thinking about that really !@#$%^& weird music
video Jerome posted.
I'm not sure if I think they are completely ridiculous, or if they're my new favorite band! :)
EDIT:
LOL!
Any fellow Bujinkan members, or ninja enthusiasts, will definitely want to check this out:
South African ninja rap! Awwesoome. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cegdR0GiJl4&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Message:
Posted by: Fred Darevil (Apr 3, 2013 3:35am)
Quote:
Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense
here? What's that? None? :) :) :)
From my angle the score looks more like this: monkey = 0/tiger = 22-23
extra sales because of you...not quite sure but Dan will send me another full
report and more $$$ from your efforts tonight.
Jerome... you confirm my analysis about your relation with money, thanks to your subconscious ;)
You are true, I made no money with my posts here. Hopefully. That's why I said Monkey=1 / Tiger=0 ,
because I evaluate my success on an intellectual level, not a financial level. As I already said in my first
messages : I take risks opening my mouth. Even the risk to be wrong and disapproved by the entire
group (hopefully I receive kind PM, an impossible thing to prove ethically unfortunately). I take the risk
to be human, to resolve my cognitive dissonance by exposing what upset me. And it is often
incompatible with business. No problem, I made my choice years ago when fighting against the Grim
Reaper under a sterile tent. That's why I feel no anger against you but I feel free to express my opinions,
trying to be fair and a little bit amusing because that's only human comedy.
Remember, I wrote earlier : "Talk about me badly or nicely but talk about me". We talk about you
Jerome Finley. Then you earn more money, that's your malediction. But you will loose too, not by the
same. It's a good thing. Read again Icarus and Midas myths.
Page 88 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
I do not hate money but here is what I insert in my own publications about piracy and sharing
knowledge(owners will confirm it they want) :
"Should I say something to you about piracy ?
I mean, if you already decided to freely share this e-book on the web because its your philosophy
nothing I could say would help me to convince you not to do that, even if I tell you that I really need
money to survive in this hard world, dont you think so ?
And if you are not concerned by piracy, nothing I could say to you would help me to convince those who
are concernedetcetc.
SO
Do what you think is the best thing to do. Whatever it is.
I just make a wish if you allow me to : If you really want to share this e-book, offer it for free to a true
lover of our art or a penniless person. Knowledge should never be a question of money. Thats my
philosophy.
Sometimes, I even received money on my PayPal account from performers who use my personal ideas
professionally with success. I never ask for that but they do it and Im sure they feel good and proud for
having doing that, never asking for my gratitude. Human mind can really be wonderful."
---------I do not pretend it's a better relation to money but it's the one I've chosen.
Peace,
Fred
Message:
Posted by: Aymeric de Valon (Apr 3, 2013 3:36am)
Quote:
Besides, who's angry?
You should check this thread, there are comments like a teenager who blow a gasket in front of
structured criticisms...
Quote:
Bring them to me and I'll !@#$%^& show you and your little "dragon
cards" what's up...GUARANTEED.
If you want to get "huffy", by all means, let's go. Me + YOU + "lay
audience" = FORGET YOUR CAREER AND YOUR HOBBY.
Pansy !@#$%.
Go back to bed.
Put up, or S.T.F.U!
Page 89 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
And yeah...the Caf ****ing sucks these days, but we all already knew
that.
I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you are, where you're from or
what you do.
If you can't, then keep your stupid ****ing comments to yourself.
BTW, I don't give a **** what you like or dislike
And I won't explain about the nice video...
Quote:
Question, Fred: How much money have you made by posting your nonsense
here? What's that? None?
As I explained,"lure of gain is an modern addiction. It affects even the "so called" most knowledgeable
individuals "
Quote:
I have 50,000.00 USD I can lose, and I would relish in the opportunity. I
have more. Much more.
and a nice precision, having seen the sensible character of the message :
Quote:
I can show and prove funds immediately.
Page 90 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Yes, you are the TIGER, you are the MASTER, you are the WEALTHIEST, you have the BIGGEST
You say you have the best material out there ever published in the world (extract from your books).
For sure legends like Hanussen, Kuda Bux, Anna Eva Fay or John Edward should ask themself questions ?
(or perhaps do modesty escapes you with your 30 + years old ?)
BUT You don't care a little about your customer, just about what they can bring back to you
Quote:
I'm sick and tired of people talking **** on these boards and forums.
I don't give a **** what your opinion is, who you are, where you're from or
what you do.
The ONLY reason you take the time to read our stupid posts is that you know you've made your business
that way...
And you want to go selling your exclusive ebooks and DVD to come to fishes as we were
Nevertheless, I'm happy you take your precious time to read our stupid posts :)
Quote:
Do you think we rise to the bait ? Not a single reader would trust you on this one...
You know perhaps more than a lot how it is difficult to sell
You explained in YOUR books how it's hard to live doing what you love
You asked for money with your SOS ebook because you say yourself you've lost a lot.
I'm sorry but I can't be with you on all these comments
To conclude, I just note that you haven't answered ANY of the tangible criticisms made about
your abnormalities re-selling exclusive items, non numbering limited editions and controlling
Page 91 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
it, etc.
Message:
Posted by: JohnWells (Apr 3, 2013 5:38am)
Quote:
On 2013-04-02 21:24, Jerome Finley wrote:

Well then it looks like YOU'RE out of a job, "Dr."
I shouldn't think so, the whole highly successful psychologist with a PhD (no "Dr.", just Dr.)thing does
pretty well for him. I'm sure this will earn me one of your little "let's grab the ruler and settle this"
tantrums, and that's fine. You enjoy that. When you can grow your own beard, I'll make an effort to
feign interest in whatever disparities you and your tape measure deem important.
Bottom line, the message you're sending is that your word cannot be trusted becaus you can be bought.
I'm sure your stuff really is "the best out there" (I can't say since I don't have any of it), but at the end
of the day you're an entertainer (so I'm told), perhaps a good one (I've certainly never seen you workyour performance videos have a knack of disappearing), but of no lasting significance in the real world,
and what is, at best, a breach of good faith does no service to your reputation in any sphere that actually
matters.
I have no more to say, though I'm sure you'll have some delightful chest thumping for me later if
suckling fan boys at the bosom of your creativity leaves you any time for nobodies such as me.
Message:
Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 3, 2013 6:43am)
Jerome got your pm.

You serious?
Message:
Posted by: Stephen Young (Apr 3, 2013 7:06am)
Trying to PM you Dr.

Your letter box is full to bursting.
Message:
Posted by: MatCult (Apr 3, 2013 7:34am)
Quote:

Your letter box is full to bursting.
Page 92 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Fnar fnar! Yurk yurk!

Message:
Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Apr 3, 2013 11:04am)
Hmmm. Who knew? Apparently the advantage of an emporer with no clothes is that you get to see the
******* part of him real good.
Can I say that?
I sincerely cannot think of any other author, in the history of the Caf, responding with such a attitude
towards their peers and their customers as Finley has done in this thread. A mutual dislike from his
customers has been earned. What an insult.
I want to see a video to see if this guy actually CAN perform. From his responses, I can only doubt it.
I've only read the prerelease of his 'restatement' of Sydney Omarr's Thought Dial...and that did not offer
hints of any performing expertise.
Question...has ANY Caf member seen him in action performing? Anyone, anywhere, anytime? In person,
video, kinescope, Iphone, anything?
Message:
Posted by: duanebarry (Apr 3, 2013 11:44am)
I believe he's been booked to appear at the 2013 Mindvention.

Get the first aid kits ready...
Maybe the organizers will move the event to a boxing arena.
Message:
Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Apr 3, 2013 12:17pm)
Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few complaints about his published works (if any), but
that personal attitude is incredibly grating. Only one other ego close to it..and his responses have been
more revelatory than informative.
Message:
Quote:
On 2013-04-03 12:17, Tom Jorgenson wrote:

Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few complaints about his
published works (if any)....
Page 93 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
If I bought something digital & ephemeral for hundreds of dollars, and didn't like it it, I would be
embarrassed to publicly say so. That being said, I have never spent that much on any ebook, so I cannot
attest to the contents...
Message:
Posted by: brehaut (Apr 3, 2013 1:34pm)
Quote:
On 2013-04-03 13:14, Lucien Astor wrote:

Quote:
On 2013-04-03 12:17, Tom Jorgenson wrote:

Sorry to miss that. To be fair, I have seen very few
complaints about his published works (if any)....
If I bought something digital & ephemeral for hundreds of dollars, and didn't
like it it, I would be embarrassed to publicly say so. That being said, I have
never spent that much on any ebook, so I cannot attest to the contents...
I think that is a bit unfair. Not sure you can make the leap that since there are no negative comments
about Jerome's work its because the buyers' are embarrased to say so given the price of his work.
Message:
Quote:
I think that is a bit unfair. Not sure you can make the leap that since there
are no negative comments about Jerome's work its because the buyers' are
embarrased to say so given the price of his work.
Conceded.
Message:
I approached Jerome based solely on the material in the books I have purchased. Ironically the very
book that the original poster was disappointed in continues to deliver useful information to me several
years after my purchase. I should say that it was not an ebook at the time and was printed on red paper
to deter photocopying. The ebook is actually easier to read! But I haven't been disappointed in anything
I've purchased from Jerome.
It is interesting to contrast this discussion with the one downstairs.
Page 94 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
Dr. Spektor - George Anderson - a gift that keeps on giving. I dedicated a period of time obtaining and
studying everything in the bibliography of "It Must Be Mindreading". Well worth the time and effort.
Everything he ever wrote is useful.
Message:
Posted by: THB (Apr 3, 2013 3:48pm)
Doesn't the practice of shamanism require some empathy?

I thaught it did. I guess I was mistaken.
Message:
Posted by: seadog93 (Apr 3, 2013 4:01pm)
Quote:
On 2013-04-03 15:48, THB wrote:

Doesn't the practice of shamanism require some empathy?
I thaught it did. I guess I was mistaken.
Shamans and spiritual practitioners can get just as grumpy or upset as anyone else. In fact, esoteric
spirituality is about healing the artificial barriers that society sets up for us between ourselves and our
emotions (causing chronic tension or "character armor" from a Reichian perspective as we repress
ourselves), so when a shaman gets upset it could, arguably be more visible than when a 'normal person'
(whatever that is!) gets upset.
...I only made a point of responding to that because I've been re-reading my Riechian and neo-Riechian
books lately and was specifically thinking of that point last night. Not that I think it's unreasonable to
have a level of control over how we express our emotions, but I think the sweetness-and-light ideal of
spirituality is just a projection and extension of the armoring that we all have (or that I have at least).
Message:
Hi guys,
As I mentioned it previously, I have strictly nothing to blame about the material sold.
It absolutely rocks the house, and very very hard.
BUT such a contrast with that attitude against customers, absolutely nothing to care about them : it's
strictly impossible to feel that it's the same person writing here and in his books.
When he complains about beeing pirated, we can't say better that Lucien Astor :
Quote:
If an exclusive and sold-out release is pirated, the person who loses
financially is the purchaser. Not the seller, because they have made all the
money they were going to make once the limited run was sold-out. I can
understand the creator being angry about piracy, but re-releasing the
material seems to be about capitalizing on an existing market demand,
imho.
Page 95 of 96
2013-04-03 4:33 PM
I have never seen him perform.

With such material, I'm sure he is a very nice reader and performer. I can't imagine anything else.
But with such laudative material, it will be for sure very difficult for him to produce a lot of video
performances of the 200 effects in his books, each beeing polished up while hundreds of performances...
Why ?
Because with the way he writes, we can use our right brain and idealize what we feel right about
mentalism and what we can dream about.
=> Even the best performer (!) couldn't compete with such books.
BUT such books are the best food for thoughts, perfect thinking, incredible ideas seen nowhere else,
delicacy of study and wonderfull advices for any professional reader of psychic mentalist. And when you
try the pieces (and I've tried a few...), they work !
If he performs all the pieces he describes or none of them isn't interest for me.
I see what that brings to me, my character, my performance and how to always improve it. Even when I
will be 50+ .
The quality of his books isn't (for me) a point to be discuted.
I'm profoundly disappointed with the character himself.

And I'm sure that he knows and regrets it now...
But with a very pronounced Mont of Jupiter and a Heart line sticked to the Life Line, it will be very
difficult to bend his verbal sparring match...
That's all.
Page 96 of 96

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2013-04-03 4:33 PM

Topic: The emperor has no clothes.

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 16, 2013 1:04pm)

Posted by: Smoking Camel (Mar 16, 2013 1:07pm)

Mike do you have any specific examples?

Posted by: Mike Ince (Mar 16, 2013 1:10pm)

On 2013-03-16 13:07, Smoking Camel wrote:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 1:17pm)

Where can I buy these no-clothes? downloads?

Posted by: Tom Jorgenson (Mar 16, 2013 1:29pm)

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 1:35pm)

Posted by: DrTodd (Mar 16, 2013 1:56pm)

On 2013-03-16 13:35, THB wrote:

The New Chelman book is delightful!

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 2:13pm)

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 16, 2013 2:29pm)

Posted by: Rick Maue (Mar 16, 2013 5:49pm)

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 6:02pm)

Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 16, 2013 7:29pm)

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 7:37pm)

Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Mar 16, 2013 7:46pm)

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 7:56pm)

On 2013-03-16 19:29, Mick Ayres wrote:

Posted by: THB (Mar 16, 2013 8:05pm)

On 2013-03-16 19:46, Tony Iacoviello wrote:

On 2013-03-16 19:37, THB wrote:

I'm not hiding anything either... :eek:

Posted by: Mick Ayres (Mar 16, 2013 9:26pm)

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 16, 2013 9:43pm)

Nice thread to start,Mike!

Posted by: JanForster (Mar 16, 2013 9:54pm)

On 2013-03-16 21:43, Godzilla wrote:

:) what says enough... Jan

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:08pm)

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 10:09pm)

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:22pm)

On 2013-03-16 17:49, Rick Maue wrote:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:24pm)

On 2013-03-16 19:29, Mick Ayres wrote:

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 10:27pm)

On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote:

I think he's after some killer sharks or larger...

Posted by: mastermindreader (Mar 16, 2013 10:35pm)

On 2013-03-16 22:09, IAIN wrote:

Posted by: IAIN (Mar 16, 2013 10:40pm)

On 2013-03-16 22:35, mastermindreader wrote:

I need to up my game on that then!

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 16, 2013 11:13pm)

Posted by: JohnWells (Mar 16, 2013 11:13pm)

Posted by: Godzilla (Mar 16, 2013 11:20pm)

Posted by: Withnail (Mar 17, 2013 6:48am)

Iain, You beat me to the punch!

now where I don't think I really need any more books.

Posted by: THB (Mar 17, 2013 7:56am)

None,of the questionable creators,have made it here!

my point exactly, you put it a lot better than I did.

Posted by: Steve Suss (Mar 17, 2013 9:35am)

Posted by: Dr Spektor (Mar 17, 2013 10:24am)