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Australian Crime Commission Transcripts
Australian Crime Commission Transcripts
TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
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Mr T. Sage, Examiner
Examinations
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SYDNEY
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MR RAWE:
All stand.
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
5
This is an Examination being held
pursuant to Summons number S zero zero sixteen slash one four (0016/14). The
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witnesss name is
that basis. For the record, I note that the witness was served with the Summons
on Tuesday the twenty eighth (28th) of January at one ten (1:10) pm and I will
tender a Statutory Declaration of David Conceicao. I, the witness telephoned the
ACC at approximately four thirty (4:30) pm on Thursday to advise that he had
contacted a barrister who had said that he was unavailable today and wished to
15
move it to Tuesday. After some difficulty with the phone number, the witness had
changed his phones and I managed to contact him later morning Friday the twenty
(20), sorry, Friday the thirty first (31st) of January and spoke to the witness and
said to him that you were minded not to allow the adjournment and that if his
barrister was not available he ought to get another barrister and I asked the
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witness to have his rep legal representative to telephone me. I had no further
contact with the witness. This morning I met with him outside the Examination
Room and he indicated that he had not been able to get another lawyer in time.
For the record, I perhaps should tender the Summons so we can get started.
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MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
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MS DEAKIN:
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can
you just have a look at those documents, flip through and just, are you satisfied
that that seems to be the same document that,
MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
You dont
have to read every word but does that look like the same document?
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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Yeah, it is.
MS DEAKIN:
Yes. And the other document that youve just been given,
you havent seen that before but that a Statutory Declaration from our office
saying that at one ten (1:10) pm he handed you those documents.
MR
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR SAGE:
fourteen (16/2014) addressed to the witness returnable today the third (3rd) of
February at ten (10:00) am together with Annexure A, a copy of the Australian
Crime Commission Special Operation Authorisation and Determination National
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Security Impacts from Serious and Organised Crime number two (2) of two
thousand and thirteen (2013). Annexure B, a document headed Statement of
Rights and Obligations pursuant to Subsection 29A(3) of the Australian Crime
Commission Act 2002. Annexure C Explanatory Notes. Also with the Summons
is a Statutory Declaration which evidences the service of the Summons on the
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witness on the twenty eighty of January two thousand and fourteen (28/01/2014)
at one ten (1:10) pm. Those documents will be Exhibit one (1). Thank you. Mr
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representative?
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MR SAGE:
MR
MR
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order to, cause Im not really sure, like what to do or whats going on really so, Id
like if I could someone.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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MR SAGE:
would not be giving you an adjournment unless you needed to engage another
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MR SAGE:
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MR
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free till Monday and I asked Phil Butterfield if he could send someone else and he
couldnt either.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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notice, so.
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MR SAGE:
MR
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MR SAGE:
is not suitable and as far as Im concerned youve had enough time to get a
barrister. What is going to happen if the Examination proceeds today is that
youre going to be asked a series of questions before that happens Ill give you an
opportunity to claim self-incrimination and Ill give a direction, so that what you say
25
in this Examination cannot be used against you in a court. The direction that I
would give would be subject to two (2) exceptions where your evidence may be
used in a court, that is confiscation proceedings to recover proceeds of crime and
a second (2nd) exception where your evidence here can be used even if I do give
a direction is if you were to give false evidence in your Examination. So when
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youre questioned, if you lie, dont tell the truth, its referred to in the Australian
Crime Commission Act as false evidence. If you give false evidence then thats a
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serious offence and you can be prosecuted for that, so thats the exception where
your evidence could be used in a court. Every other offence it cannot be used
against you. You understand?
MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
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I, is it,
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MR SAGE:
MR
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Pardon?
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MR SAGE:
now. And Im asking you, are you prepared to answer questions today?
MR
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course.
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MR SAGE:
barrister or solicitor,
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MR SAGE:
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Or both.
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Well its,
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MR SAGE:
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MR
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No, I did ask but he said cause by the time I asked him it
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MR SAGE:
Mr
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MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
before I go,
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MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
To my opening remarks. Mr
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what Im going to do
now is Im going to tell you some things about the Examination and I want you to
listen carefully to what Ill say to you. The first (1st) thing Ill tell you is that Im an
Examiner appointed under the Australian Crime Commission Act. And you have
been summonsed today to give evidence in relation to the matters that are
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mentioned on the Summons. I know it doesnt give you much detail but as youre,
as the questions are asked of you it will become apparent what the issues are that
we want to question you about today. You may be asked questions concerning
other matters other then those that are mentioned on the Summons but I expect
that most of the questions will relate to the subject matter on the Summons.
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Examination will be conducted in private and I direct that the persons whose
names appear on a sheet in front of me which I will sign and date with todays
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date are the only persons who may be present during your Examination. Before
you give your evidence you are required to either swear an oath or to make an
affirmation. I understand that youve indicated that you will swear an Islamic Oath,
is that correct?
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MR
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MR SAGE:
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MR
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
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Yes.
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MR SAGE:
front of you. If you wish to hold it, open the cover or do anything else with it thats
a matter for you, you can decide that, whatever you believe you need to do to
swear an oath on the Koran. Okay.
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MR
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Yeah. So do I,
MR SAGE:
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MR
Pardon?
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Do I do it now or,
MR SAGE:
approved and you can tell me if it is okay for you to swear. Its an Islamic Oath, its
in these words, I, then youll say your full name, swear with the sacred Koran in
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my hand before Allah that the evidence I shall give in the course of this
Examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is
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my judge and my maker. And then you can put your hand on or you can put your
head on, hold the Koran whichever you choose to do. Is that okay for you?
MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
MR
10
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Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
MR
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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that the evidence I shall give in the course of this Examination shall be the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, Allah is my judge and my maker.
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MR SAGE:
Thank you. You can take a seat. And could you tell me
MR
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MR SAGE:
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And
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is
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
is
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MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
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and
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is
Yes.
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MR SAGE:
MR
10
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MR SAGE:
MR
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I dont work.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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No.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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No.
MR SAGE:
The first (1st) is that your evidence today is being recorded electronically in its
entirety using audio and video equipment.
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obligations under the Australian Crime Commission Act. The Act provides that
you must answer all questions that I require you to answer and you must produce
all documents or things that I require you to produce. If a document or thing is
required during your Examination and you dont have it with you, then
arrangements can be made for the material to be delivered to the Commission.
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Ms Deakin who youve met today is Counsel Assisting she is going to ask you
most of the questions. And when she asks you a question, shes asking on my
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questions and produce documents or things that are required from you even if
they may tend to incriminate you or render you liable to a penalty. As I said earlier
to you the Australian Crime Commission provides protection for you from self5
offence and if you were prosecuted for that offence then your evidence here may
be used against you or can be used against you in that prosecution. So do you
understand?
MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
protection?
MR
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MR SAGE:
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that direction gives you the protection I mentioned to you subject to the
two (2) exceptions. I now need to remind you that you must give truthful evidence
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in this Examination you have sworn an oath to give truthful evidence. If you do
give evidence which is false or misleading in a material particular or if you produce
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a document or thing during your Examination which contains a statement that you
know is untrue and you dont tell me then that is a serious offence. It carries or
attracts a significant fine or a term of imprisonment to a maximum of five (5) years.
So do you understand the importance of telling the truth?
5
MR
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
If you dont tell the truth, you lose the protection that Ive
given you.
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MR
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
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MR
Okay?
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MR SAGE:
gathered and some of it relates to you and thats what we want to question you
about today and that is the reason why you need to tell the truth. Okay?
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MR
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MR SAGE:
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MR
Do you understand?
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
voice up.
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MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
If I turn the air conditioning off, its going to get too hot in
here and it makes quite a bit of noise, its a bigger room, its a big room, so youll
have to keep your voice up and not only does it have to be recorded, Ms Deakin
has to hear it, I have to hear it and the other people have to hear it, hear what you
5
say. Okay?
MR
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
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MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
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you live at
MR
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Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
And what, your Mum, your Dad and your sister, what are
their names?
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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Yes, my brother.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
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live?
Hes in prison.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Just Phil.
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MS DEAKIN:
Just Phil,
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
The barrister?
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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No.
MS DEAKIN:
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Did you tell your Mum that you were coming here today?
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No, she saw the AFP at the front, she knew I was served
with documents,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Okay.
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And like she doesnt know what it is exactly but she knows
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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Okay. So you got a new, did you get a whole new phone
MR
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number.
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MS DEAKIN:
week?
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Yes.
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MS DEAKIN:
that phone be produced. What that means is Im going to ask the Examiner to
order you to give the phone to us and were going to download it, the contents of
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Okay. Mr
MR
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MR SAGE:
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MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay. No, you keep the key. And you dont know the
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No, I (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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On,
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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No.
MS DEAKIN:
Friday,
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
And thats the same number that you still have today,
right?
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Now,
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
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MR
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Yeah.
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MR SAGE:
downloaded. I will leave the bench shortly. My assistant will take you out, you
can bring the phone in, you can identify it to me and then it will be handed to my
5
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
lock?
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
password down.
MR SAGE:
You can write the password down when you come back.
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MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Mr
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
5
MR
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Yeah.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Sheet of paper?
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Yes.
MR SAGE:
Ill make the code the next Exhibit, a handwritten note with
the code to the phone produced by the witness, code seven five two five (7525)
will be Exhibit two (2). Thank you. Ms Deakin.
15
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
changed your number fairly regularly just to get a new SIM but you dont any of
your old numbers?
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Pardon?
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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really quick.
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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(Wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Okay.
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stopped working. Another one just wasnt working for a while (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Okay.
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MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
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mmhm,
MS DEAKIN:
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mmhm,
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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At hotmail.
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
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MS DEAKIN:
or just,
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15
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Oh yes.
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MS DEAKIN:
Of course.
yeah.
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
addresses?
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Ive got a few actually, but I wouldnt like know them off
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
(Wd).
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Or iCloud one.
Pardon?
iPhone.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
So mmhm
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).
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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I just what apps, just see what apps its on my credit card
information.
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
providers,
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Outlook, Gmail.
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No, Ive had a few over the years, no, Im always (wds)
told me (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah.
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So I dont know but, I dont, like Ive had a few over the
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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Like cause Ive lost the password Ive been using, the
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah, the same one. No, Ive got a couple but I dont
know the email off by heart, so I dont know like might have to get it from my
phone.
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
phone?
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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Okay.
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15
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
called?
MR
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Its
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MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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Okay.
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5
MS DEAKIN:
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10
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Pardon?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Ali.
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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Ali (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
How come you chose to put a picture with you two (2) up
on there?
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
media?
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MR
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No, not really, I havent used the (wd) for a week but it
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MS DEAKIN:
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5
MS DEAKIN:
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No.
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Just Facebook.
MS DEAKIN:
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No.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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No.
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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They work.
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MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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if I want to go out, theyd give me more money than usual. I usually, like I get
maybe fifty (50) bucks a day.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
Cash, yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
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But just, your Mum gives you fifty dollars ($50) every day
MR
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Like some days shell no give me but when I ask her get
usually you know, they do tell me to go and get a job but they still give me.
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MS DEAKIN:
Excuse me.
MR
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more.
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MS DEAKIN:
Well, how about last week, how much did you get?
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
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hundred (200) bucks plus maybe the three hundred (300) of the week or
something, so.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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Sometimes it matters,
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
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A debit card.
MS DEAKIN:
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A debit card.
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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The NAB.
MS DEAKIN:
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MS DEAKIN:
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MR
Alright.
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MS DEAKIN:
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20
ZZ
Ive never usually used the bank but I was with St George
before that and I was with Commonwealth but for my St George account there I
never put money in them, maybe like a hundred (100) bucks here and there. And
then, I dont know just, I never know why I stopped, just with the NAB.
MS DEAKIN:
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account?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Your Mum,
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MR
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Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
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5
MS DEAKIN:
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10
Alright. So you get, most days you get fifty dollars ($50),
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Or my Dad.
MS DEAKIN:
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get three hundred and fifty dollars ($350) plus a bit extra if you want to go out on a
weekend.
MR
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ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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MR
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Yeah. If you need it, if you need anything take this, take
that and,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
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MR
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Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
But,
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MS DEAKIN:
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Like she gets, she gets, she doesnt let me touch it, like
MS DEAKIN:
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25
MS DEAKIN:
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And sometimes and the rest of the days I just get fifty (50)
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MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
MR
5
ZZ
thats right.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
10
MS DEAKIN:
Youre the only, are you the only one that operates that
account?
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Why?
30
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MR
ZZ
He would just, we had sold him tyres for a car and he put
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
My brother had a friend who just got out of prison and hes
transferred the money to my account when he got out cause he bought the tyres.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
From me.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
name?
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MR
ZZ
ZZ
the tyres for free and when my brothers friend came out of prison which is very
recently, he came and his father actually came and picked them up but,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No. We got,
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
and
25
MR
ZZ
David.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
David,
ZZ
Yeah.
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MR
David what?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
David, got out of jail, needed new tyres and gave you
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
Never.
MS DEAKIN:
How come you only need to put money in rather than give
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
something went wrong, so he goes put the money in the account and then take,
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
(Wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
together, so.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
25
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
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MS DEAKIN:
So, you, your brothers girlfriend may have transferred money a couple of times,
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Walker.
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
30
MS DEAKIN:
So (
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
maybe a thousand (1,000) something like that, go have a check on it, Im not
really sure.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
All together?
ZZ
Yeah, we, maybe its been a couple of times, Ive got bad
memory, so.
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MS DEAKIN:
Well okay. Then lets just try to just think carefully, okay.
You mentioned (
how many times can you remember that she put money
in?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
Im not, I just dont want to say just in case that its wrong.
MS DEAKIN:
you can remember, okay, dont make stuff up, dont say oh you can check, I
might, cause we can check but what I want to know is what you can remember
about the money that (
20
MR
ZZ
put in.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
30
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
Id say twice.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
A month, two (2) months ago in, I think, I told you Im not
the best,
MS DEAKIN:
Right. Well two (2) months ago, okay, its not that long
ago,
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
say that.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
Altogether?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
(1,000)?
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
5
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
money,
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
So,
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
to send me
money if I,
25
MS DEAKIN:
But is (
looking after
jail?
MR
30
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
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MR
ZZ
sometimes,
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
my brothers account,
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah, I,
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
account,
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
He might not even not tell me why he will just transfer it in.
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MS DEAKIN:
happened?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
what he would have done or you think might happen, what do you know, what
happened, why did (
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
No, he just told me dont touch the money that goes into
your account.
MS DEAKIN:
How do you know which is money that you can touch and
which isnt?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
30
MR
ZZ
So,
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
put into the account, did you have a conversation with your brother,
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
statement.
20
MS DEAKIN:
that?
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Well how has he done that since youve got back from
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
long is it since you got back, how often has he done that, how often has he got
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
20
MS DEAKIN:
(1,000) then it was two (2) and then it was three (3),
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
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ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
Alright.
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
your account?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Thats it? And this David, the person with the tyres?
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
Thats it?
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No-one else?
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
money altogether?
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ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
brother and his Missus and my Mum like she does what she has to do something
in my account, you know.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
Not at all?
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
30
MS DEAKIN:
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ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
5
since you got back, right, your recollection is that your brother has told (
to
put money into your account and told you not to touch it, so its still there now,
right?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Yeah.
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah most of it. Ive got I think six hundred (600) for me.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
For me in there,
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
Like for me and my Mum and the rest, the two grand
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MS DEAKIN:
(2,600) in there,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
10
MS DEAKIN:
Now is that the only money your brother has ever put in
MR
ZZ
to put in?
15
MS DEAKIN:
Well hang on, you told me that before hes been in jail for
three (3) years and this has been a regular pattern, right?
MR
20
ZZ
Oh no, this bank account has only been around for six (6)
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
brother send,
MR
ZZ
No.
30
MS DEAKIN:
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ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah, I told you the other accounts I had they were dead.
MS DEAKIN:
Alright. Is it true that your brother has only ever given you
money or put money in your account in the last six (6) months,
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Why not?
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
older than me, hes got control of everything, you know, so, I dont like sometimes
30
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
5
ZZ
dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
But youre just, no, youre telling me its his money and
10
MR
ZZ
him.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
No Mr,
ZZ
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
Mr
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
No, listen to me, dont interrupt me, tell me, think clearly
MR
ZZ
I told you,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
listen to my questions. So, when did your brother first give you money?
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
You had this bank account for six (6) months, before that
has your brother done, has your brother put money into your account,
30
MR
ZZ
No.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
In a different account?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
He hasnt?
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
So only just the last six (6) months he started doing this?
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Yeah.
ZZ
So nothing regular.
MS DEAKIN:
to put money in
and you reckon thats about two thousand dollars ($2,000) or so and that money is
still there?
20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
allowed to spend?
25
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
Never?
ZZ
No. Hes got no, he doesnt have much, hes got to tell
them to (wds).
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MS DEAKIN:
has never given you money that you can then spend yourself?
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
($2,000) thats gone into your account that youre not allowed to spend,
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
Its just, I dont know, just stay, its gets together for my
Mum, for me. Sometimes I dont spend my money sometimes, I put it together,
wait, I sell stuff, like I sell my Play Station, my games and that.
MS DEAKIN:
Why does
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
in person only in visits cause she visits her stepdad whos in jail and they sort of
met like that. Like they knew each other on the outside but her stepdad and just
my brother and she visits him and they saw each, no they just, my brother is
25
MS DEAKIN:
(Wds).
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
Well look, the Examiner has already told you that weve
MR
20
ZZ
I know.
MS DEAKIN:
sixty five cents (65c) in your account at the end of the year, on the twenty fourth
(24th) of December there was sixty five cents (65c) in there, thats a nothing,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
30
MS DEAKIN:
Is that right?
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
year, so it wasnt
you any money last year because you wouldnt have spent it.
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
And your mother, that money must have been this year,
right?
MR
ZZ
told you I cant remember so youre making me fall into traps, I cant remember.
20
25
30
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. Now lets go through this carefully and see
what we can work out. So, first (1st) page, lets just put this on the record, this is a
copy of statements for account number BSB
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ZZ
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, account number
ZZ
of
. Thats you?
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
opened an account maybe six (6) months ago, this is one thats opened on the
nineteenth (19th) of July, so this is the account weve been talking about?
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So the first (1st) thing that happens apart
MS DEAKIN:
from a couple of very small deposits. On the nineteenth (19th) of August theres
15
three hundred dollars ($300) deposit, do you see the credit column there? Yeah,
so that credit column, three hundred dollars ($300) cash deposit, the next day a
hundred dollars ($100) cash deposit, two hundred dollars ($200) cash deposit.
Okay. Do you remember where that money comes from?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
30
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MS DEAKIN:
on the twenty second (22nd) of August you see how it shows Eftpos and it says
you bought something at McDonalds in Bankstown,
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Harbour and then youre back in Yagoona. Why did you go to Coffs Harbour for
one (1) day?
10
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
Im trying to think.
On the twenty second (22nd) of August?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
next thing that happens is on the twenty sixth (26th) of August theres four hundred
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dollars ($400) cash deposit and then the very same day you take, theres two
hundred and seventy dollars ($270) in cash comes out of the ATM. Why did you
put four hundred dollars ($400) cash in and then you take two hundred and
seventy (270) out on the same day?
5
MR
ZZ
money.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
And then two (2) hours later youre spending it? Right.
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
(28th) of August, you put two hundred (200) in and then you take fifty (50) straight
20
out from the ATM. Yeah, thats the pattern thats familiar, thats your money, your
Mums money going in and then you taking it out in cash. Okay. Same happens
on the fourth (4th) of September, six hundred dollars ($600) goes in and then two
hundred and fifty (250) goes in, hundred (100) goes, whats, can you see the fifth
(5th) of September,
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
Yeah.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
(Wds).
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
next page, on page, this is page three (3), yeah, theres tran, theres the date, the
ninth (9th), tenth (10th), eleventh (11th), thirteenth (13th) and sixteenth (16th) of
September, theres three hundred dollars ($300) goes into the account on the
sixteenth (16th) of September and the reference is (Batalla). Do you know what
20
that is?
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
(Batalla).
30
MS DEAKIN:
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
If you turn to the next page, the very next day the
dollars ($100) goes into your account, (Batalla). What does that mean? Do you
know where money comes from? Cause you said that the that only money that
goes into you account is your Mum and this guy with tyres and a couple of times
from
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
things sometimes and sometimes like they could be people from prison family
paying.
25
MS DEAKIN:
spend or not?
MR
30
ZZ
recall it.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
your account?
MR
ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MR
15
ZZ
I wouldnt know.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Well is this (
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
Why, when you say that would be from your Mum, what
MR
ZZ
Oh yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Is it or isnt it?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
likely.
30
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
Cause,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
shopping spree, youre spending money, youre just spending all of that money, is
it your money or is it your brothers?
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Im trying to understand,
15
MR
ZZ
I would have you told from the start, I wish, I would have
MS DEAKIN:
20
is it your brothers?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
want, if my brother tells me not to spend something, I dont spend it, if its not, if he
doesnt tell me dont spend, Ill spend (wds).
30
MS DEAKIN:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Every week.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
head this isnt a new bill, in my head, like, these are things normal like thats why
its not a big thing for me.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
from?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
But how, where did she get that much money in cash?
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Shes Interpreter.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
You says it was cash, I dont know, she would have got it
from (wds).
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
She put it in cash, but how she got it its her business.
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
from?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Do you remember,
ZZ
I,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
10
hand,
MR
ZZ
No, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yes but,
25
MS DEAKIN:
Have you ever been into the bank and deposited that
much money?
MR
ZZ
30
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
How much is the most that youve ever put in the bank in
cash?
MR
5
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Sometimes,
10
Did you go to the bank on the twentieth (20th) of
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I cant remember.
15
Right. On the twenty fourth (24th) of September if you
MS DEAKIN:
look at the top of page, top of the next page, its statement number two (2), page
two (2) theres an ATM withdrawal of six hundred and fifty dollars ($650),
20
MR
ZZ
Where?
MS DEAKIN:
Why did you take six hundred and fifty dollars ($650) out
at one go?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
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ZZ
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one hit, so a lot of my money goes and sometimes I get a big win, sometimes I
dont. Thats why I cant give you a clear answer cause I cant tell you the specific
incidences.
MS DEAKIN:
Excuse me.
youre not going to be able to help me, youre not going to be able to tell me
where,
MR
ZZ
No I cant.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
Im trying (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Im trying (wds),
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
I told you,
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
I won at the pokies a few times but I cant tell you what
MS DEAKIN:
30
ZZ
account
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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, account number
) that copy.
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
you see its written at the top the time and date, nineteen oh four twenty seven
10
seconds (19:04:27), so four minutes past seven (7:04) in the evening on the
twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013). Do you know
any of the people in that photograph?
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
Come on Mr
ZZ
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
ZZ
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Where is this?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yeah,
ZZ
Obligation.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
Yeah, who was it? Who were you there saying goodbye
to,
MR
ZZ
It was no-one,
MS DEAKIN:
In particular?
15
MR
ZZ
Theres no specific.
MS DEAKIN:
to?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
Listen Mr
ZZ
ZZ
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know the specific, its called (wd) we get (wd) for
Specifically, Mr
ZZ
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
Tell me who,
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Mr
ZZ
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
organised to meet them, you said here I am, Im on the M5, Im nearly there, oh
where are you, Ill meet you outside, who are we talking about here Mr
ZZ
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
photo,
MR
ZZ
Im,
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Sorry.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
15
20
MR
ZZ
No, I dont,
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
To go to Hajj.
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
30
MR
ZZ
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
I dont,
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
25
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
30
MR SAGE:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
cousins wedding, the day I went to the airport to say goodbye to the Hajj people.
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR SAGE:
15
MR
Look Ive told you earlier you need to tell me the truth,
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
20
MR SAGE:
MR
25
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
Yes or no?
ZZ
Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
30
MR
ZZ
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
I told you earlier that you need to tell the truth if you dont
you can face a charge or charges of giving false evidence and it carries a jail
sentence up to five (5) years. Now, it seems to me that you do know from based
5
on what I already know about this investigation the people that are in the photo
thats in front of you and the question is, who is the man in the white,
MR
10
ZZ
I dont know.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
15
MR
ZZ
I was saying bye to (wd) just talking with people thats it,
MR SAGE:
20
phone?
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
someone do you?
30
MR
ZZ
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
5
You dont?
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
you dont know the name or the identity of any person in that photo?
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
ZZ
MR SAGE:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I just, I dont know, I just been, I just, a few things that get
to me, so.
MR SAGE:
5
MR
ZZ
I dont know, just a few things, I dont know if its the exact
(wd), cause I just seen, I dont know but like sometimes, I dont know, I cant, I
dont know, just, sometimes I take Zanax to sleep and that and its not prescribed,
10
thats why I didnt want to say it like I dont know, I just, I cant recall the,
MR SAGE:
You say its not prescribed, you mean that you havent
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
physiologist,
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
None at all?
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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ZZ
MR SAGE:
But you sit there and tell me you can remember that on
MR
ZZ
I cant,
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
that they went to a wedding, I can remember the day I went to the airport, there
where we cause its not every day you go to the airport.
MR SAGE:
15
see off at Sydney Airport, I could probably tell you all their names.
MR
ZZ
everyone.
20
MR SAGE:
Why did you go there for if you didnt go to see the people
off?
MR
ZZ
Cause its our custom, to say bye, but these days our
at that time,
MR
30
ZZ
make a prayer.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
lot of your community going but not on the same day, how many times did you go
out to the airport?
MR
ZZ
Once.
MR SAGE:
MR
Just once?
ZZ
Yeah. Due to the fact that the wedding was on that day.
10
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No-one in particular.
MR SAGE:
No-one in particular?
MR
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
5
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Its not loss of memory, Ive got memory (wds) memory but
Youve got a normal memory but its just got worse in the
MR
15
ZZ
No, the memory like I know to myself, like I cant tell you I
MR SAGE:
photo, so for you to sit there and tell me you dont know people,
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR
25
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
telling you, I dont remember, youre trying to put words in my mouth, I dont
30
remember.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
I am asking you who you know in that photo because I believe that you know
people personally that are in that photo.
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
(Wds).
15
MR SAGE:
MR
20
ZZ
(Wds).
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
in the photo,
MR
ZZ
No it doesnt.
MR SAGE:
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
Youre telling me I went this and that Im telling you I dont remember that day in
the specifics of it.
MR SAGE:
MR
What,
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
Is it that you know people in the photo but you cant remember who they are?
MR
ZZ
this (wd).
15
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
asked you who are the people in the photo thats in front of you is your answer
that you know people in the photo but you cant remember who they are?
MR
30
ZZ
MR SAGE:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
5
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
No.
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Let me be clear.
15
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
20
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
In your life?
ZZ
Yeah.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
God knows.
MR SAGE:
MR
Pardon?
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
10
ZZ
them, I cant.
MR SAGE:
MR
Youre in the witness box, not Allah or God, its not what,
ZZ
I dont remember,
15
MR SAGE:
MR
20
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
dont remember meeting these people or seeing these people thats it.
MR SAGE:
30
MR
ZZ
No.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
Personally?
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
ZZ
No.
MR
10
MR
MR SAGE:
morning tea break, probably fifteen (15) minutes. But you need to think over the
15
break about the evidence youre giving because youre getting into a situation
where you are going to face the consequences of giving untruthful evidence in
your, in answer to the questions. Do you understand?
MR
ZZ
No, I,
20
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Understood.
25
30
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
MR RAWE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
had any better recollection, can you tell me whos in those photos?
5
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
10
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Thank you. The copy of the colour photo with the date the
twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013) and the time
nineteen oh four twenty seven (19:04:27) depicting a number persons will be not
identified will be Exhibit four (4). Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
20
Ill show you another photo. This photo has the reference
QUE2/C235, thats QUE2/C235, the time is eighteen fifty seven and thirty two
seconds (18:57:32) on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
(29/09/2013). Do you recognise any of the people in that photograph?
MR
ZZ
No.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
number of male persons not, a number of persons not identified will be Exhibit five
(5).
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
MR SAGE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
10
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
15
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
30
MR SAGE:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
5
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Yes.
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MR SAGE:
MR
20
ZZ
MR SAGE:
you?
MR
25
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Mr
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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ZZ
MR SAGE:
Mr
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
Im answering,
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
photo in front of you and tell me on the best of your recollection if you have ever
seen that person before? Have you ever seen that person before or have you
not?
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Thank you.
ZZ
30
MS DEAKIN:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
person.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Now the person in Exhibit six (6) that you just saw is the
same person as the man in white at the airport, you were there. What do you say
to that?
MR
20
ZZ
Say to what?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
person.
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
white, perhaps the documents could be shown, perhaps the three (3) photos could
be shown to the witness again,
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
Together.
MR SAGE:
Just so the record is clear, Exhibit four (4), five (5) and six
MS DEAKIN:
Now Mr
ZZ
(5) and six (6). The man in Exhibit six (6) is the same person as the man with the
white hat in Exhibit five (5) and the man with the white hat in Exhibit four (4). The
15
man on the far left in Exhibit five (5) with the bag strapped over his shoulder, look
at the photo, look at Exhibit five (5) look at the person on the left with the strap
over his shoulder, that man is you.
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
It is you?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Look at,
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
10
MR
ZZ
If I,
MS DEAKIN:
Mr
ZZ
very serious, if you lie to this Commission, you will be charged and you will go to
jail. You need to think very carefully about your answers. Look at the people in
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
I wasnt (wds).
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
30
MS DEAKIN:
ZZ
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
ZZ
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
persons bag, a person you have never met before, a person you did not arrange
to meet at the airport?
MR
ZZ
30
MS DEAKIN:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
5
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
Did you arrange to meet this man, the man in Exhibit four
15
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont recall.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
and tell me who, whose voices you hear on this tape. For the record this is, just a
moment stop that, for the record, this is a call, it says with the record number five
six two (562), its a call at one twenty seven (1:27) pm on the twenty ninth of
September two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013), from call number zero four
30
one five seven five eight seven two one (0415758721) to zero four one five seven
seven one one zero one (0415771101). Thank you.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
10
M1:
Hello (wds).
M2:
M1:
Can
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
20
CALL PLAYED
25
M2
To the airport?
M1
30
M2
M1
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ZZ
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M2:
M1:
M2:
M1:
Ive got to, Ive got to get two hours to the airport earlier
Six oclock (6:00) (wds) so can I see you before that while
youre in the area, or?
M1:
15
20
M2:
M1:
M2:
Yeah but where you parents, what area do they live in?
M1:
Lakemba.
M2:
Lakemba.
M1:
25
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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M1:
M2:
M1:
10
M2:
M1:
(wds) if not now before the airport I will see you at the
airport and sit you down and talk (wds) if we get a chance.
15
M2:
20
M1:
M2:
25
M1:
M2:
(Wds) if I can I will even come see you before that (wds). I
will try my best.
M1:
Call me, call me, dont make a move because Im not sure
if Im going to be in the area around here (wds).
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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M2:
(Wds)
Ill
come
wherever,
come
wherever.
5
END OF CALL (TRANSCRIBED)
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Mr
ZZ
ZZ
People on that call are you and the person in Exhibit four
MR
ZZ
25
MR SAGE:
played to you?
MR
ZZ
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
a tactic,
MR
ZZ
Its not.
5
MR SAGE:
MR
10
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
ZZ
No, I dont.
MR SAGE:
No.
ZZ
No.
MR
MR SAGE:
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No.
MR
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
5
MR
10
ZZ
Im not sure.
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR
MR SAGE:
MR
15
ZZ
I dont know I never know that call thats why I dont know.
Youse could have put my voice there, youse could have done anything I dont
know what youse can do.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
(Wds).
25
MR SAGE:
If you dont know the voice why are saying it, we could
have (wds)?
MR
30
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
Im telling you.
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
ZZ
problems bro, I got problems so, thats why I havent got nothing official on paper
but I dont know, I just,
20
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yeah I know I just got, yeah, theres other things too (wd) I
25
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
30
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yes Sir.
MR SAGE:
ZZ
Last year.
MR SAGE:
Last year?
MR
10
MR
15
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
20
ZZ
The date?
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
I went to Thailand.
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
The airline?
30
MR
ZZ
No (wds).
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MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
to (wds).
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
15
MR SAGE:
truth, as Ms Deakin said to you, you can be charged with the offence of giving
false or misleading evidence if you are using,
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Okay, will you listen and let me finish. If you are using a
tactic such as saying every time youre asked a question I dont remember or I
dont, I dont have any memory or Ive got a bad memory and not answering
25
questions then there are, there is another offence under the Australian Crime
Commission Act of hindering the Examiner in the conduct of the Examination or
obstructing.
MR
ZZ
30
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MR SAGE:
ZZ
But thats a different story you know I cant, like I cant you
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
different instance.
MR SAGE:
15
you, the consequences you face if you are going to give false answers, if you are
going to mislead, if you are going to use a tactic such as I cant remember or I
have no memory of that, or I dont know, I may have done, when you do know the
answer, then you are going to have the problem and itll be facing charges in a
court, not here, in a court and if you are convicted there is a strong possibility that
20
MR
ZZ
(Wds).
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
30
MR
ZZ
Yes.
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MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR
You do understand?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Ms Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Okay.
10
Now youve said you understand what the
Examiner is saying, if someone has told you that all youve got to do is keeping
saying I dont recall, I dont recall and they cant get you for false evidence, that
advice is wrong.
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
circumstances and gone to jail. Now in my view the answers that you have given
20
are false and misleading and you may be obstructing or hindering the
Examination, now you are putting yourself in serious jeopardy of being charged
with an offence or being held in contempt of the Examination.
MR
ZZ
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
ZZ
any further except in one regard, I would like, I would ask you to make it clear to
the witness that the questions that have been put are material to the special
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intelligence operation pursuant to which this Examination was taking place and
that the answers if proven false would be false in material particular.
MR SAGE:
5
to you today, in particular the questions about your bank account or bank
accounts and the questions in relation to the photos that have been shown to you,
particularly on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
(29/09/2013) and the telephone, intercepted telephone calls we played to you on
the twenty (20), a recording of a call on the twenty ninth (29th) of September the
10
same date as the airport photos, two thousand and thirteen (2013) was the year,
last year, those questions are important to the special operation that the
Commission is conducting, they are material to that investigation.
MR
ZZ
15
MR SAGE:
Do you understand
MR
ZZ
20
MR SAGE:
operation that the Commission is conducting so therefore its important that you
tell the truth, do you understand that?
25
MR
ZZ
Mm.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yes.
30
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MS DEAKIN:
adjournment, I will take the opportunity to speak to the witness outside the
Examination Room and clarify his, some of his legal rights and obligations.
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
intention to continue in this vein, I will be making an application for him to be held
in contempt and I am aware that he should be given the opportunity to seek legal
10
MR SAGE:
to you outside, if I consider it necessary for you to get legal advice I will be giving
you that opportunity.
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
we come back I will decide whether I need to adjourn your Examination or not to
20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Very serious.
30
MR
ZZ
Yes.
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MR SAGE:
one (1) offence those offences if you are con, charged and convicted in a court,
carry jail sentences, its a serious matter okay.
5
consideration to you, Ms Deakin will talk to you if you dont cooperate when you
come back and tell the truth, then Ill consider putting a matter over so that you
can get legal advice. Thank you.
MR RAWE:
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
10
ZZ
Ms Deakin I understand Mr
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
And your lawyer has given you some advice and I dont
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
evidence?
25
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
No. Mr
ZZ
and it being so serious, that position that you are now in as far as I am concerned
30
is this, I am of the opinion that during this Examination today that you are a person
who is in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission. Now, I can refer you to
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the Federal Court or to a State or Territory Supreme Court to be dealt with for
contempt, but Im not going to do that today, because as I said it is such a serious
matter and you dont have a lawyer with you here today. I am going to give you
an opportunity to get legal advice and particularly to instruct the lawyer that you
5
speak to, that the Examiner is of the opinion that you are in contempt of the
Australian Crime Commission and I cant direct you do get a lawyer, but Im telling
you that, I consider it is very important that you do get legal advice and preferably
to have a lawyer with you when you come back on the next occasion.
You
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Tuesday, next Tuesday, tomorrow week the eleventh (11th) of February at ten
15
(10:00 am and in the meantime during this adjournment you are not to speak to
anyone other than a lawyer about the evidence that youve given, the questions
youve been asked, the fact that you came to the Australian Crime Commission or
that youre coming back on the next occasion. If you need to speak to anyone
about money to pay a lawyer I permit you to speak to whoever you need to speak
20
to about money, but not to tell them anything about the Examination.
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No.
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
That you need, you can tell them that you need to get a
lawyer to give you advice and that it is important that you get that advice and that
30
you need money but you cant tell them what its about okay.
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MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
You understand?
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
engage, I want you to tell, to contact Ms Deakin and tell her the name of the
lawyer, you understand?
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
thank you.
15
MR
ZZ
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thats okay.
your phone, the data, the information, the download will be Exhibit seven (7).
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
Pardon?
ZZ
30
MR SAGE:
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
5
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
further?
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Ill be here.
(10:00), well proceed then and something I was going to mention to you.
25
MS DEAKIN:
The secrecy obligations that youve been through ought there need to be an
interim non-publication direction made?
30
MR SAGE:
Oh the consequences.
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MS DEAKIN:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
this adjournment, you, if you do speak to anyone and tell them about this
5
Examination and what youve been questioned and your answers, apart from the
lawyer that you may or may not engage then if you breach or you break my
direction, dont (wd) the direction, dont speak to anyone, then that is also a
serious offence under the Australian Crime Commission Act and you can be
prosecuted for that. It also carries a fine and a jail sentence.
10
MR
ZZ
Pardon?
MR SAGE:
breach.
15
MR
ZZ
If I tell someone?
MR SAGE:
20
MR
ZZ
Ill go to jail?
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Alright.
25
MR SAGE:
MR
30
Okay. Understand.
ZZ
MR SAGE:
You cant tell your Mum and Dad, you can tell them if you
want to borrow money from them that you need to engage a lawyer,
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
5
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Okay. Understand?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
here,
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah I will.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
No Ill be here.
20
MR SAGE:
then I will make an application for a warrant to issue to have you arrested and
brought in, okay
25
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
30
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TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
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_____________________________________________________________
Mr T. Sage, Examiner
ZZ
Advection Examinations
SYDNEY
QUALITY
CHECKED
ZZ
BY
BRAD
RAWE
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MR RAWE:
All
stand.
Examination
of
the
Australian
Crime
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
Examination pursuant to Summons number S zero zero one six of twenty fourteen
ZZ
(S0016/2014) of Mr
that Mr
ZZ
10
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Mr
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
ZZ
is present today.
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
adjourned indeed for his client to attend an appointment with a psychiatrist, for an
ZZ
the appro all I ask for at this stage Examiner is that any, that a report be prepared
by any such psychiatrist as to the diagnosis of Mr
ZZ
also ask that that written report be made available to you Examiner and to
30
ZZ
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Mr
ZZ
ZZ
ZZ
ZZ
10
attendance.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
provided you with a copy of a certificate from a GP, a Doctor Saner Elhafi, and for
the record thats Doctor S A N E R, surname L A, E L H A F I and a report which
15
MR SAGE:
are some other Exhibits I need to give numbers to before I get to the medical
report, but,
20
MS HOWARD:
So on that basis Ill leave that, Ill leave that then in that
order Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Okay
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
25
30
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MR SAGE:
For Mr,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
For Mr
ZZ
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
granted?
10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
documents which I understand have been tendered before you and will be
exhibited in particular a document from Dr Elhafi who saw Mr
20
25
ZZ
on the ninth
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
has an
appointment at four thirty (4:30) this afternoon to see. Your Hon, Examiner, the
concern I have is that it has now been brought to my attention from Dr Elhafi that
there is an initial diagnosis of a major depression and an anxiety disorder with
PTSD. Now I understand from having now spoken with Mr
ZZ
on a few
occasions and Ive seen some deterioration in his particular mental state, for the
30
record Examiner, Mr
ZZ
February at eleven twenty (11:20) am and eventually taken before the Federal
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Court that particular day after a warrant was issued in the afternoon which caused
him great concern.
ZZ
it is my concern that, Mr
ZZ
Examination takes place and Id ask for the opportunity to have Doctor Bajgar at
least be able to see him into, this afternoons consultation, but importantly
potentially another second (2nd) consultation with a view of obtaining some short
report to assist you the Examiner in regards to the continuation of the
10
Examination. Ive spoken with my friend this morning and Ive indicated on having
instructions to consent to Mr
ZZ
15
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
the proceedings that you are prepared to adjourn the Examination is that Mr
ZZ
20
will ask for an order under twenty five (25), sorry an order that you as the
25
30
reports and upon my request I will seek pay report from the psychiatrist. I should
say for the record that Ive not had any dealings with Doctor Bajgar, however I
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ZZ
So in those
10
proceedings?
MR SAGE:
Indeed.
MR SAGE:
And Ill do that and then Ill come back to your application.
MR SAGE:
mobile phone which happened on the last occasion the third (3rd) of February but
25
was not available before I left the bench, will be Exhibit seven (7). The recording
of the Examination on the third of February two thousand and fourteen
(03/02/2014) will be Exhibit eight (8). I also have in the Examination Room the
passport with the Federal Court judge handed or have handed to the
Australian Crime Commission. Can I see the passport thanks? Thats passport
30
number
in the name of
ZZ
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
with some importance and that might be the reference to the documents that you
have before you with the name, M A S T E, Maste (wd)
10
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
ZZ
substantiate the
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
20
Commission,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
30
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MR SAGE:
The
passport
ZZ
in the name of
number end
ZZ
in the name of
I will make both the current and the cancelled Australian Passports
10
MS HOWARD:
instructions about a
15
identification card.
MR SAGE:
I have that.
MS HOWARD:
If that
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
And they are the passports that the witness through you
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
30
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MR SAGE:
Exhibit eleven (11). I also have the Vietnam Airlines boarding pass in the name of
ZZ
understand it it was this year, Sydney to Ho Chi Minh City. A letter dated the
5
ZZ
concerning a suspension of his licence from the second (2nd) of, drivers
licence from the second of October two thousand and thirteen (02/10/2013). I
understand these documents were obtained at the airport last week from the
10
ZZ
copy of
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
that I understand obtained from the witness at the airport on the sixth February
two thousand and fourteen (06/02/2014) will be Exhibit twelve (12). And now that
brings me to the doctors covering letter and the reports and the witness through
Mr Butterfield has informed me that the reference to Maste
ZZ
ZZ is in fact
The
ZZ
copy of the All Care Medical Centre letter, signed by Doctor Samer, S A M E R,
Elhafi, E L H A F I, together with a mental assessment, mental health assessment
a K ten (K10) form and a patient plan and a patient assessment will be Exhibit
thirteen (13). Mr Butterfield the position Id reached on the last occ, you dont
need to stand.
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
ZZ
he had given on that day in his Examination that he was in contempt of the
5
ZZ
him obtaining or being given the opportunity to obtain legal advice before the
matter of his contempt was referred to either the Supreme Court of New South
Wales or the Federal Court. Subsequently he was arrested on a warrant on the
10
sixth (6th) of February shortly after he had attempted to board or had boarded a
flight to Ho Chi Minh City. And around that time, as I understand it, he was in
contact with you Mr Butterfield for advice and as subsequently obtained legal
advice and he is here today represented by you. So I am reluctant to grant a
further adjournment in the matter but because of the circumstances of him
15
seeking medical advice very recently and the fact that the GP has recommended
or advised him to seek a psychiatric consultation or consultation with a psych
psychiatrist and Mr Butterfield tells me that that appointment has been preliminary
or the first (1st) appointment has been made for four thirty (4:30) pm today with a
Doctor Bhagari or Doctor Bhagar, B H A G A R, who I now understand is a
20
25
referred to the Supreme Court or the Federal Court to be dealt with in relation to
contempt of this Commission. I will grant an adjournment for that purpose but the
report that is required in the present circumstances is a detailed report amongst
other things, specifically addressing the requirement of the witness to continue to
give evidence should that be the case in this Examination or to give evidence in
30
another jurisdiction and in particular his ability to answer questions truthfully. And
I say no more about that matter but I did want to put on the record the context in
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which the witness is seeking to obtain professional advice. I will shortly adjourn
the Examination or the further Examination of the witness until the third of March
two thousand and fourteen (03/03/2014) but before that, I do that and intend on
give a non publication direction. In relation to the Examination of Mr
5
ZZ
the
evidence has already been given and the matters that have already discussed
today on the record. Before I do that Ms Howard is there anything further that you
wish to put to me?
MS HOWARD:
10
publication direction, Examiner I seek also that the non publication direction permit
the ACC providing the Examination material to any legal representatives engaged
by the ACC with respect to advice in relation to contempt. That would simply be a
variation to permit Examination material to be made available to legal
representatives engaged by the ACC.
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
ask that you consider a variation to permit, no I withdraw that, Ill make this
20
25
ZZ
ZZ
he has with the doctor to make that information available to the Commission and
also permission from Mr
ZZ
ZZ
ZZ
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throughout the course of that, that may well be that Mr Butterfield has made notes
in relation to the questions asked and the evidence given by his client. I seek that
those notes particular notes be surrendered to you the Examiner in order to
prepare the questions, in order to protect the confidentiality of the questions asked
5
and the answers given in relation to this special operation, Examiner. They can
be handed up and sealed and made available to Mr Butterfield when he requires
access.
MR SAGE:
10
relation to the non publication direction and or anything Ms Howard has sought?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
fine.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
25
given, I understand the concerns the ACC might have in regards to obtaining their
own report,
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
surrender of notes, I do have an issue with that in the sense that Ive covered not
only the, because there has been no transcript made available, although I
understand one had been ordered, my notes cover not only conversations which
5
would normally be subject to privilege between my client and I but also some of
the questions and answers that I wasnt privy to.
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
non publication order in regards to all of the material from the hearing.
15
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Pardon?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I,
MR SAGE:
25
30
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10
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes, I,
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
that.
MR SAGE:
ZZ
when this Examination has concluded, Ill permit you have acc to retain those
15
notes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. The only other issue was the date, Examiner,
I just wondering whether or not there was any possibility of not sitting, not
recommencing on the third (3rd) but perhaps later in that week, I understand that
20
25
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats certainly,
MR SAGE:
30
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
representatives now.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
I hope he wouldnt
either Examiner but I already have an appeal, a significant appeal booked on the
third (3rd) and just wondering,
10
15
MR SAGE:
No, thats,
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
(10:00) am. Now, would you like me to leave the bench while you speak to your
client about,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR SAGE:
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
30
ADJOURNMENT
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MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
An independent report?
MR SAGE:
Professional advice?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats correct.
MR SAGE:
Appointment?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thats correct.
MR SAGE:
Ms Howard.
20
25
30
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MS HOWARD:
I think thats fine, Examiner and Ill just clarify the consent.
The consent will be the provision of the report and it ought to also include the
provision of the report and medical and other medical records including those that
we have.
5
MR SAGE:
and Mr Butterfield draft an exception to the non publication direction that Im about
to give and agree to the terms of it?
10
MS HOWARD:
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
25
MS HOWARD:
Yes.
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
Yes,
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS HOWARD:
Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Ill leave the bench and let me know when thats ready.
30
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MS HOWARD:
MR RAWE:
5
ADJOURNMENT
10
15
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
Thanks.
MR SAGE:
handwritten consent order that the witness consents to the provision of any
psychiatric report and medial records made on his behalf to a psychiatrist or
psychologist for the preparation of an independent assessment on his current
mental state signed by the witness dated today. That consent will be Exhibit
fourteen (14). As I said I intend to give a non-publication direction in relation to
20
25
any information or any evidence that might identify or tend to identify the witness.
No publication of the fact that the witness was summonsed to appear at the
Australian Crime Commission on the third of February two thousand and fourteen
(03/02/2014), Wednesday the twelfth of February two thousand and fourteen
(12/02/2014) and is required to further attend on Friday the seventh of March two
30
exceptions to this non publication direction, the Chief Executive Officer, the
_________________________________________________________________
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ZZ
ZZ
Further exception to
witness Mr
ZZ
number double zero on six of two thousand and fourteen (0016/2014) including
10
ZZ
They that is the direction and the exceptions and unless there
get and require to be produced on the next occasion is a detailed report from a
psychiatrist or a psychologist having regard to the nature of the proceedings now
before me in this Examination. That requirement that I am giving is under Section
28(4), I think Ill just go with provision, 28(4), the Examiner who is holding an
Examination may require a person appearing at the Examination to produce a
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
ability to meet the sufficient detail and I wonder whether in the circumstances
25
appropriate to differ a report is obtained and with the sufficient time that a copy
can be forwarded to the ACC in particular the legal representative to ascertain if
such detail will suffice for production. I dont want to get to a position where a
report is produced shortly before the next date of the Examination is and then find
that the detail is insufficient.
30
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MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Im a bit,
MR SAGE:
Its part,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
that and I take it that there wont be any issue that if a report is obtained that a
10
copy be forwarded as soon as possible so that, if the concern is that the degree of
detail that at least I can try and have it attended to.
MR SAGE:
to the seventh (7th) of March and my req, my direction requiring production will not
15
Examination of Mr
ZZ
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
PROTECTED
_____________________________________________________________
Mr T. Sage, Examiner
Examinations
ZZ
SYDNEY
ZZ
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MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
5
Examination of Mr
ZZ
ZZ
could attend a
Mr
Butterfield, I do have a copy of the report of Dr Richard Furst, dated the twenty
10
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes Examiner.
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
15
20
Examiner?
25
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
(4th) of March, a psychiatric report from Dr Richard Furst dated the twenty eighth
of February two thousand and fourteen (28/02/2014).
30
electronically sent on the fourth (4th) of March to Miss Deakin as per the orders.
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MR SAGE:
fourth of March two thousand and fourteen (04/03/2014) with the report of Dr
Richard Furst, F U R S T, Consultant Forensic Psychiatrist, dated the twenty
eighth of February two thousand and fourteen (28/02/2014) and referring to
5
Muhammad
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
10
15
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
opportunity to read the transcript of the evidence of the witness on the third of
February two thousand and fourteen (03/02/2014) and as I understand also the
transcript of the last occasion.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
completely given the time limitations, but Im fully aware of them. I did on the, for
the record, on the last occasion return as indicated and had the opportunity to
listen to the audio,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
25
MR SAGE:
30
particularly to two (2) passages of the transcript of the eleventh (11th) of February
two thousand (2000), ah the third of February two thousand and fourteen
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(03/02/2014), being pages seventy three to ninety, (73-90) and one hundred to a
hundred and eight (100-108).
MR BUTTERFIELD:
5
as I said not in detail, but still I had the opportunity to listen to all these things on
the last occasion.
MR SAGE:
is where my concern about the attitude of the witness, particularly his inability or
10
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I have.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
indicates that the evidence that hes given is to the best of his recollection, and he
20
MR SAGE:
does not say that the witness is not capable of giving evidence.
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
No.
30
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
regards to the diagnosis and also some of the symptoms in regards to memory
impairment, but even given that I've had the opportunity to speak to the witness
and I understand that he doesnt wish to change any of the evidence hes given so
5
far.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Mr
ZZ
said,
10
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
Examination truthful?
20
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Examination. We will probably re-visit some of the areas and there will be some
further questions to be asked of you and Ill review my position after that
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
30
before we proceed?
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
No Examiner.
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
Butterfield and the evidence by the witness that he is not in a position to provide
any further or different evidence about the matters that we spoke about.
However, for clarity and to ensure that there is no risk that the witness has been
treated unfairly I would like to briefly re-visit those areas that we spoke about on
10
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
Yes. So,
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
15
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
four (4), thank you. For the record that is a photo of a group of people, Im
25
instructed it is at Sydney Airport. Theres a record on the top that says nineteen
oh four twenty seven (19:04:27), which is the time, yeah four minutes past seven
(07:04)pm in the evening on the twenty ninth of September two thousand and
thirteen (29/09/2013). Can you tell the Examiner who, if anyone, in that photo do
you recognise?
30
MR
ZZ
Ah no-one.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No-one.
5
MS DEAKIN:
(4)?
MR
ZZ
10
MS DEAKIN:
right?
MR
ZZ
No Mam.
15
20
25
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Yes, sorry.
MS DEAKIN:
There is writing on the top saying QUE 2/C235 and the time marked eighteen fifty
seven and thirty two seconds (18:57:32) and the date twenty ninth of September
two thousand and thirteen (29/09/2013). Can you tell who, if anyone, in that photo
you recognise?
30
MR
ZZ
Only meself.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Only yourself?
The left.
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
On the left.
On the left, The one (1) with white strap down over the
shoulder?
15
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
No. You dont recognise that person. And are you able to
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
you,
30
MR
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
Let me just make myself clear here. The man that youve
identified as you,
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yes, thats you. Do you know what that white strap is?
Its my bag.
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
20
essential that I do, but because this is a continuation of the Examination of the
witness and the formalities that I went through at the opening included a direction
giving the witness protection in response to his claim of self incrimination. The
25
affect of that direction continues for the remainder of the Examination and the
evidence is giving, the witness is giving evidence under the oath that he swore on
the last occasion, the previous occasion. Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
30
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MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
No.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MS DEAKIN:
20
questions that I have just asked about identification of people in the photos are
25
material to the special operation pursuant to which this Examination is being held.
MR SAGE:
the questions that he was being asked that I didnt believe he was answering
truthfully or attempting to answer in fact were important questions. They are in
30
fact material questions which means that they are questions that are very
important to this investigation thats being conducted by the Australian Crime
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Commission and they are asked on the basis that it is important for the
furtherance of the investigation that those questions be answered truthfully by
you, do you understand?
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Yes. Yes.
10
15
MR
ZZ
Yes.
MR SAGE:
Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you.
YAAY )?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yes.
Yes. When did you last see Mr (YAAY )?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
30
ZZ
No.
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
Not that,
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
Email?
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
you were played a telephone call. I asked you to listen to a telephone call you
remember that?
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Mm, mm.
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
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MS DEAKIN:
number
number
to phone
(
) at one
twenty seven (01:27)pm on twenty ninth of September two thousand and thirteen
5
(29/09/2013), and its call record five six two (562). Thank you.
MR SAGE:
CALL PLAYED
10
15
M1
Hello (wds).
M2
M1
20
M2
To the airport?
M1
MS DEAKIN:
25
CALL PLAYED
M2
M1
M2
Oh youre leaving.....
30
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yours? You,
Okay. So, but again can I ask you please to speak clearly
You don't remember the call but what Im asking you now
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
20
Sorry?
One (1) of them sounds like your voice and one (1) of
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Yeah.
30
MR
ZZ
No.
or
, thats it.
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
I dont know.
I dont know.
name?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
No.
such an early stage venturing into contemptuous territory. If the witness claims
25
MR SAGE:
Yes, yes.
MS DEAKIN:
30
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
Commission and for you to tell the truth in this Examination. From the information
available to me through the investigation and the gathering of intelligence
information and material by the Commission and its partner agencies, I am certain
5
that you are not telling the truth. I've told you a short time ago that it is, you are
being asked questions that are very important questions. Theyre not general
questions, they are very specific questions. They are questions to which I believe
you should know and be able to give truthful answers,
10
ZZ
MR
Im giving,
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR
15
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR
Ive not been known by any name other than my own name.
20
or
, thats it.
MR SAGE:
You've been asked about the phone call that was played
to you.
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
30
MR SAGE:
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ZZ
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ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
5
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
these questions truthfully and youre not and I believe that you have the capacity
10
to answer the question truthfully. There is nothing in the psychiatrist report that
would suggest to me that you have lost the ability to answer truthfully. So Im
going to leave the bench now. Im going to consider what I do in relation to the
furtherance of this Examination, and Mr Butterfield if your client needs to get
further advice I can tell you before I leave the bench that I am still of the opinion
15
that the witness is in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission, and that does
not leave me with many options.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes Examiner.
MR SAGE:
MR RAWE:
ADJOURNMENT
25
MR RAWE:
All stand.
MR SAGE:
30
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MS DEAKIN:
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
the Examiner may apply to either of the following courts for the person to be dealt
with in relation to the contempt. Part A, the Federal Court, B, the Supreme Court
of the State or Territory in which the Examination to which the contempt relates is
being conducted. So I havent changed my opinion. The matter can be prepared
for referral to the Federal Court or the Supreme Court during the adjournment and
20
ZZ
opportunity before the matter is referred to the court to change his mind and
answer questions that are put to him in a truthful manner. As I have said Mr
ZZ
Commission and youve been given a number of opportunities, both with and
25
identification being
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner the,
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
set. Mr
15
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Yes. Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
current, number
passport, which is
and
cancelled passport
as those Exhibits.
adjourn.
MS DEAKIN:
25
And theres one (1) other matter if I could ask that, for a
direction that the witness produce the contents of his mobile phone and that he
advise any password to allow access to that phone.
technician is available to do that work today. It depends on the type of phone how
long it takes but I can, theres no need to hold the witness here while that
happens, and we can make arrangements for its return as soon as possible.
30
MR SAGE:
Mr
ZZ
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
5
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
MR
Yes.
ZZ
want it but its an old Nokia. I dont know what youse can get from it except
messages and that.
MR SAGE:
15
Well thats not a matter for you as to what we can get from
it.
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No, no Im not saying with all due respect, I'm just saying,
20
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR SAGE:
to produce the phone and the content of the phone can be downloaded and it will
30
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
My phone?
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Oh.
MR SAGE:
the data that is on it but of course to facilitate that you have to produce the phone
that its in.
10
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
Okay?
ZZ
Yeah.
MR
15
MR
MR SAGE:
and recover the phone, identify it, does it have any password on it?
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MR SAGE:
MR
None.
ZZ
Nothing.
25
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
non-publication orders, I wonder if that might also continue, such that any
30
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ZZ
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MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
been produced, is it your submission that the, if the witness requires ongoing
5
psychiatric care and that disclosure of matters in the Examination is necessary for
that therefore?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
ZZ
in relation to
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And I ask that that order continue for the exception of the
non-publication order.
25
30
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Okay. Okay well Ill deal with that when I come back.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
ADJOURNMENT
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you Sir. The witness has taken a phone out of the
10
ZZ
15
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah, yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
Is that the only mobile phone you have used in the last
MR
ZZ
25
MS DEAKIN:
Have you used another phone in the last two (2) weeks
MR
ZZ
30
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
peoples phones?
MR
5
ZZ
phones?
MS DEAKIN:
MR
Yes.
ZZ
Yeah, of course.
10
MS DEAKIN:
You have?
phones?
MR
ZZ
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
number
yeah.
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
I don't know.
whoever I want.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
15
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MR
ZZ
up someone elses phone, someone calls for you, someone, you call someone
25
else back from someone elses phone and would remember every instance.
MS DEAKIN:
from,
30
MR
ZZ
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
5
MS DEAKIN:
MR
10
ZZ
I wont, Mr
ZZ
ZZ
Mr
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Mr
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
week?
20
MR SAGE:
MR
25
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yes or no?
MR SAGE:
Yes or no?
ZZ
I said yeah.
30
MR
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MR SAGE:
Listen to her
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Okay.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
15
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
20
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
Anybody else?
No.
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
30
MR
My missus.
ZZ
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ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
I dont remember.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
25
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No.
30
MS DEAKIN:
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ZZ
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MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
Every day.
MS DEAKIN:
10
MR
ZZ
At home.
MS DEAKIN:
15
MR
ZZ
leave it around.
MS DEAKIN:
20
MR
ZZ
I dont know.
MS DEAKIN:
MR
25
ZZ
home (okay).
MS DEAKIN:
often in the last two (2) weeks have you left your phone lying around?
30
MR
ZZ
I dont remember.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
the calls and you can tell me for each call, number thats been dialled whether that
was you or if was someone else, do you want to do that?
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
No it doesnt.
10
MS DEAKIN:
MR
ZZ
all good. Theres nothing to hide in it. Take it. Youre doing to download the info
15
now. Im not hiding nothing. I dont know what youre trying to get at.
MS DEAKIN:
All those calls that are made in the last two (2) weeks did
20
MR
ZZ
MS DEAKIN:
order that the contents of the witness phone be downloaded and the phone be
25
returned to the witness at a time convenient and to be arranged with his legal
representative.
MR SAGE:
phone and for the downloading of the content of the phone and Ill now require the
30
content of the phone to be produced, just to clarify that I have done that. The
phone can be taken away and downloaded and arrangements can be made
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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between Mr Butterfield and Miss Deakin before you leave for the collection of the
phone.
MS DEAKIN:
5
publication direction.
MR SAGE:
10
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
ZZ
MR
15
ZZ
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
ZZ
Yeah everything.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR
25
ZZ
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Those,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
30
MR
ZZ
Yeah, yeah.
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS DEAKIN:
not possible to go through and selectively copy. However we, once the dump is
made we can then quarantine messages and calls from a particular number.
10
Thats the best that I can offer. So if, its only going to be your number I assume,
sorry Ill address,
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mm.
MS DEAKIN:
The Examiner.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
20
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
That number?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
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MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
from,
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
No.
MS DEAKIN:
20
25
30
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
from,
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MR SAGE:
Yeah.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
deal with Mr
ZZ
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Production.
MS DEAKIN:
receiving emails?
MR
25
ZZ
No.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
Yeah.
30
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MS DEAKIN:
Alright.
read on to the record the two (2) numbers that were talking about. Hes right I do
have but just, so were sure.
5
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
20
ZZ
legal/professional privilege.
MR SAGE:
conclude Mr
25
30
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Fifteenth (15th).
MR SAGE:
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any of the matters arising from your Examination so far. I include the following
exceptions to this non-publication direction the Chief Executive Officer, the
Examiners and members of staff of this Commission, the Australian Federal
Police, the Joint Counter Terrorism Team and the Australian Intelligence
5
Community for any matter within their jurisdictions arising from this special
operation, special Australian Crime Commission operation. I also include as a
ZZ
further exception, Mr
treating psychiatrist or
ZZ
in relation to his
fourteen
(S0016/2014),
including
communications
between
his
legal
ZZ
ZZ
15
this direction does not preclude you from further speaking with Mr
Butterfield to give instructions and to receive advice but as I have said beyond Mr
Butterfield and the persons I have approved to be present at this Examination, you
are not to communicate with anyone else, do you understand?
MR
ZZ
Yes.
20
MR SAGE:
mentioned, and counsel may have mentioned, at some time during this
Examination, that it is a special investigation. It may have only been myself that
did that, wherever I have mentioned a special investigation it should read special
25
ACC operation. It is not an investigation that had been conducted. I will now
adjourn, sorry the tape of todays Examination will be Exhibit eighteen (18) and
the download of the content of the phone produced by the witness will be nineteen
(19) when it is available.
ZZ
30
until ten (10:00)am on Tuesday the fifteenth of April two thousand and
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MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Okay.
ZZ
10
fourteen (S16/2014) and last before me this morning, and I note Miss Deakin,
counsel assisting, is in attendance. Miss Deakin.
MS DEAKIN:
15
Thank you.
contents of the witness phone be produced and directed the witness to provide
the phone to the Commission which he did in compliance with that order.
Arrangements were to be made to return that phone. When the inspection of that
phone commenced it became apparent that there were messages which may
possibly constitute evidence of an offence. In order to allow further analysis and
20
review of that material, I ask that the order be amended or that a further order be
made that the Commission retain the phone until further order and not return it to
the witness.
MR SAGE:
25
contained on the phone and as submitted by Miss Deakin I agree the phone
should be further retained by the Commission until it is not further required. And I,
as part of the direction I gave this morning, I now require the phone to be retained
until I give further direction in relation to that phone. I note that Miss Deakin has
spoken with Phillip Butterfield, counsel for the witness, Mr
30
ZZ
and a record, a
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eight (01:38)pm.
conversation with Miss Deakin. The email that I have referred to, Kate Deakin,
seventh of March two thousand and fourteen (07/03/2014) to Mr Butterfield or, yes
to Mr Butterfield at one thirty eight (01:38)pm will be Exhibit twenty one (21).
5
10
MS DEAKIN:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Nothing further?
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
until ten (10:00)am on Tuesday the fifteenth of April two thousand and fourteen
(15/04/2014).
15
20
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Ah,
MS DEAKIN:
The phone can be, if the phone could be placed with the
Exhibits,
25
MR SAGE:
MS DEAKIN:
MR SAGE:
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MR SAGE:
MR RAWE:
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
purpose of further downloading the data. Nothing further? We will now adjourn.
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TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS
_____________________________________________________________
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_____________________________________________________________
Mr T. Sage, Examiner
Examinations
ZZ
SYDNEY
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MR RAWE:
All stand.
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
ZZ
the Examination of Mr
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
ZZ
ZZ is
20
MR SAGE:
Mr Butterfield.
MS HOWARD:
ZZ
phone was retained for the purposes of conducting a further interrogation of the
phone.
Examiner, further
MR SAGE:
30
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MS HOWARD:
ZZ
was before you, Examiner, Examiner, you made your comments and had
propose defer to you at this stage for any further comment you wish at this stage.
5
MR SAGE:
ZZ ,
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
15
Yes.
to be giving any further evidence under that oath. Now on the seventh (7th) of
March when you were last here, Friday the seventh (7th) of March, I reminded you
Mr
ZZ
that I believe that you were not answering questions truthfully and have not been
answering questions truthfully.
20
psychiatrist report that would suggest to me that you have lost the ability to
answer truthfully and that I then gave you an opportunity to further consider your
position and I took a break from the Examination and you left with Mr Butterfield in
response to me of forwarding you further opportunity to seek some advice from Mr
Butterfield. I did say to Mr Butterfield before I left the bench at that time that I was
25
still of the opinion that you were in contempt of the Australian Crime Commission
and of course that did not leave me with many options. You returned and a short
time later and you did not change your position in relation to answering questions
truthfully and Ms Deakin informed me when you return that during the
adjournment you had an opportunity to speak with Mr Butterfield and that it was
30
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before I did adjourn until today, I said to you that I had not changed my opinion,
Section 34B of the Australian Crime Commission provides if an Examiner is of the
opinion that during an Examination before the Examiner, a person is in contempt
of the Australian Crime Commission. The Examiner may apply to either of the
5
following courts for a person to be dealt with in relation to contempt. The two (2)
courts were the Federal Court and the Supreme Court of the State or Territory in
which the Examination to which the contempt relates is being conducted. I, again,
expressed to you that my opinion had not changed and that the matter would be
prepared for referral to the Federal Court or the Supreme Court during the
10
adjournment between that date, the seventh of March two thousand and fourteen
(07/03/2014) and today the fifteenth (15th) of April. But I did say Id give you one
(1) final opportunity today to change your position and start answering questions
truthfully and Id give you that opportunity today before I referred the matter to the
Federal Court or to the Supreme Court. Mr Butterfield, no doubt you had an
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No, only on the issue of the phone retention but that will
20
MR SAGE:
25
relation to the responses that he will give to questions that are being asked of
him?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
him.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
any answers.
15
MR SAGE:
going to change his answers. Im not satisfied that hes telling the truth in relation
to those matters and I really dont want to go through them again.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
position hasnt changed in the sense that hes still here to answer questions as
required under his Summons.
MR SAGE:
25
questions that have been asked of him those areas have been the subject of
questions on at least two (2) occasions. Now, we can go through those questions
again but his answers are going to be the same, we get back to the same position
again.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
are, that hes sought to answer the questions that have been asked of him
10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
No.
MR SAGE:
Well, is that the case, you dont wish to change any of the
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No.
Mr
ZZ ?
15
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
No.
No. So you say that the questions that have been asked
ZZ
MR SAGE:
25
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
Yes.
Yes.
you are in contempt of the Commission and because I am of the opinion that you
are in contempt of the ACC, the Commission, an application will be made to the
30
Federal Court of Australia for you to be dealt with in relation to the contempt. And
for the purposes of you being taken before the Federal Court to be dealt with in
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a short time and I will come back and then, no, I wont leave the bench. Mr
Butterfield, what I intend to do now is to adjourn the further Examination to a
nominal date and I have the ninth of June two thousand and fourteen
(09/06/2014), its a Monday to mention the Examination on that date if the
proceedings in the Federal Court for contempt are concluded and there is no
10
further requirement for the witness to be examined, I will discharge him on that
date. If there is a further requirement then a further date will be set sometime
after the ninth (9th) of June but Ill set that date on the ninth of June two thousand
and fourteen (09/06/2014).
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
that his consent to retention of his passports and was on the basis that the
Examination would be concluded. I would like the opportunity just to speak to him
to confirm whether or not hes still,
20
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
25
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Now in relation to the phone, before I take a short adjournment, you wanted to
make a submission in relation to the retention of the phone.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
that request was made in accordance potentially with 25A and I note that the
5
MR SAGE:
No it didnt.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
phone,
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
admitted to include production of any material if the order was made potentially
20
25
30
under 25A.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
And I just note that the order under 28(4), the order was
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Deakin that there was to be a request for retention of the phone for as long as
necessary and that there were further proceedings held in my absence, I
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understand Examiner in the afternoon. Im not privy to what orders were made, if
any by the Examiner. I understand those orders, oh sorry, I should say orders, I
am aware of the orders being made but can I confirm that those orders were for
the retention as long as deemed necessary because its now been as I understand
5
10
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
before I come back on the bench and hopefully resolve the issue.
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
MR RAWE:
20
ADJOURNMENT
25
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
30
MS HOWARD:
It can, Examiner.
MR SAGE:
Is it here?
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MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
5
the material from the phone will be Exhibit nineteen (19), yes.
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
If Mr
ZZ
10
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
Your phone?
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
Yeah.
20
MR SAGE:
Thank you. No, you can keep it now and nothing further
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
25
assumption.
MS HOWARD:
30
My instructions are that it does contain a SIM card but then can be checked.
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10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MS HOWARD:
Yes Examiner,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Sorry.
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MS HOWARD:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
handed to Mr
ZZ
20
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
25
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
custody.
30
MR SAGE:
Yes.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
nineteen (19)?
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
(19).
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
10
Examination of the nominal date, I gave the ninth (9th) of June, Ive been informed
15
thats the Queens Birthday Holiday, Public Holiday, the second (2nd) of June is
available the week before.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
of the application that Im not available in that week if the proceedings were to
20
MR SAGE:
simply the mention to suit another date if required and we will consult with you Mr
Butterfield just to your availability,
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
ZZ .
30
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Thats right.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Mr
ZZ
the, theres a necessity for an extension of any nominal date given that this is now
his fourth (4th) time that hes been back.
15
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
date but in the circumstances given the application I simply put on the record that
20
ZZ
Examination,
25
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
some (wd) to that because depending on what happens with the application with
the Federal Court if hes found to be in contempt, the proceedings may not
continue, they may, I dont know,
30
MR SAGE:
Well look,
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
ZZ
MR SAGE:
10
Okay.
ZZ
that before the second (2nd) of June, then Ill terminate the, Ill relist the matter and
note, advise you that its going to be relisted and excuse the witness and finalise
the Summons.
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
his ongoing consent for the retention of his three (3) passports,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
so the Commission is aware and ask for them to be returned now that that
consent is withdrawn or nor to be made if the Examiner is going to consider
making such an order that they be retained and if so on what basis.
25
30
MR SAGE:
I will,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
I,
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
5
10
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Could, Examiner,
MR SAGE:
given an opportunity to consider, further consider any application for bail and
whether that is the passports are now identification could be retained as a
condition of any grant of bail.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
ZZ
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
a particular, can I just ask what particular provision its been made under in case
25
MR SAGE:
the identification,
Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) under Section 28, Subsection 4 of the Australian
30
Crime Commission Act and I require the retention by the Commission of the
Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) until four (4:00) pm tomorrow the sixteenth of
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April two thousand and fourteen (16/04/2014) to allow a Justice of the Federal
Court who will be considering an application for contempt arising from this
Examination, hopefully some time today.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
MR SAGE:
Well,
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
15
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I think thats,
MR SAGE:
Exhibit number.
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
No.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
25
30
they can be now be just handed to, Exhibits ten (10) and eleven (11) handed to Mr
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ZZ
ZZ
and Mr
is
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Pardon?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner please.
MR SAGE:
But it is relevant.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
I understand.
MR SAGE:
Okay. Look, Ill leave the bench again for that to happen
20
25
ZZ
can then hand them back subject to the direction Ive just given and then Ill
adjourn the Examination to the nominal date of the second (2nd) of June and as I
said earlier an application will be made to the Federal Court as soon as
30
practicable for Mr
ZZ
ZZ
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Court, hes to be detained by a constable and taken before the court, Federal
Court as soon as practicable. Okay. Well just adjourn briefly.
MR RAWE:
5
ADJOURNMENT
10
MR RAWE:
MR SAGE:
Now Mr
ZZ
MS HOWARD:
20
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
passport,
Examiner,
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
25
that document, again whether theres any need for that to be retained in view of,
MR SAGE:
The identification?
30
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
Exhibits.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner please.
MS HOWARD:
(Wds),
MR SAGE:
I note that Mr
10
ZZ
and,
15
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
20
MR BUTTERFIELD:
the contempt proceedings. Im not sure of the logistic difficulties of them being,
25
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
30
MR SAGE:
Okay.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Yes.
_________________________________________________________________
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MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Yes.
produce the
and the
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
15
ZZ
20
ZZ
discharge from the terms of the Summons either prior to the second (2nd) of June
or on the second (2nd) of June. If there is a further requirement to examine Mr
25
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Examiner, before you arise, can I just ask for two (2)
matters. First of all a (wd) certificate under 34B(4) that may be in existence in
30
ZZ
is entitled to a
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MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
me.
MR SAGE:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
10
that I will need to disclose certain things to potential sureties and Id asked that
15
ZZ
MR SAGE:
20
the proceedings but not the content of the questions and answers that have been
given.
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR BUTTERFIELD:
ZZ
Yeah.
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MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
ZZ
5
MR BUTTERFIELD:
MR
10
ZZ
Yeah.
Yeah.
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
MR SAGE:
15
MR
ZZ
MR BUTTERFIELD:
20
MR
ZZ
And
MR SAGE:
MR
ZZ
25
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you. And can I ask that those names be noted and
any other surety required if those persons are not able to either meet the
conditions of being a surety or otherwise. If required I can undertake to notify the
Commission of who that surety is.
30
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
_________________________________________________________________
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MS HOWARD:
that for the record in the event that there is any issues with respect to a disclosure
to any particular surety for any reason underneath the special operation.
5
MR SAGE:
Yes.
MS HOWARD:
undertaking, yes. Now I will give a non-publication direction, for the period of this
adjournment, Mr
between the persons here present who I have approved to be present of any of
15
25
ZZ ,
his father,
30
MS HOWARD:
And
Counsel
engaged
by
the
Australian
Crime
Commission,
_________________________________________________________________
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MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
MS HOWARD:
Retained.
MR SAGE:
10
Government Solicitor for any matter including an application arising from this
special operation. And Mr Butterfield, do you intend to have a Senior Counsel?
MR BUTTERFIELD:
15
MR SAGE:
of Mr
20
ZZ
ZZ
as well?
MS HOWARD:
MR SAGE:
Nothing further?
ZZ
30
MR BUTTERFIELD:
Thank you.
MR SAGE:
Thank you.
MR RAWE:
_________________________________________________________________
ZZ
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