Structural engineering other technical topics - Pinned and Fixed Supports

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Remember Me imsengr (Structural) 21 Sep 06 8:28
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My colleague likes to have all pinned supports for his structures, but I prefer a mixture of
Join Us! pinned and fixed supports. If I put in all pinned supports, then my structure becomes
unstable. I am working on a baghouse support that is about 30 feet high. It has got a few bays
Come Join Us! of about 20 feet wide, with all the floor, wind and seismic loads, and a generous amount of
bracing.
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Engineering professional? Q1. Will this structure work if all the supports are pinned? Or do I need a mixture of pinned
Join Eng-Tips now! and fixed supports? Can I design all the supports as fixed, or will this be overkill?

Q2. In real-life construction, is there a huge difference between constructing pinned support
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● Be Notified Of Q3. My colleague says that there will be no moments at the supports, as we have provide
Responses copious amount of bracing in the frame? Is this correct? I say that there will be moments
To Your Posts generated in the supports no matter how much bracing we provide and we have to design for
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 Structural engineering other technical topics - Pinned and Fixed Supports

Your Q4. Modeling our structures in software, when all the supports are pinned, we are getting a lot
Favorite Forums of instability errors, but when I fixed some of the supports, the model runs perfectly. Is this
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chichuck (Structural) 21 Sep 06 8:45

E-mail* GAEngr05,
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most of this sounds like pretty basic stuff.
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Password Q1. It will work if there are some lateral braces in each direction. The bracing needs to go
down to the ground level, not just knee braces at corners. Then with all pinned connections,
Verify P'word including at the column bases, it should be stable.

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Q2. In real life there is a large cost difference: pinned connections are simple, clip angle type
connections (inexpensive). Fixed supports require something like end plates on beams, full
welded flanges or similar details (expensive)

Q3. If the structure is fully braaced, you will have very small moments at joints. This
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happens because the braces keep the lateral deflections down to very small levels. Try
modelling a fully braced truss in your software, and use no end releases on the members, you
"Best Of Breed" Forums Add should see very small moments in all the truss members, small enough that you should be able
Stickiness To Your Site to ignore them in design. This is why classic analysis of pinned trusses works as you may
have been taught in school.
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Q4. That is what I would expect if you have inadquate bracing in your model- the software is
finding instabilities in it. You can fix it by adding more bracing in the correct locations or by
(Download This Button fixing some member ends against rotation. Either technique will eliminate those instabilites
Today!) and make the model run.

Member Feedback All of that said, you still have to make the decision to use braces or moment connections to
make your structure stable. I generally favor bracing myself, but sometimes there are job
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Structural engineering other technical topics - Pinned and Fixed Supports

chichuck
Where in the world do Eng-
Tips members come from? JAE (Structural) 21 Sep 06 10:02
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chichuck is giving you good answers. I would further emphasize that fixed supports are not
typically done in most buildings. When you fix the base of a column, you then have
Partners significant moments to transfer into the foundation system....then, you have to have a
foundation system that can properly transfer that moment to the soil below.
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ENGINEERING.com minorchord2000 (Structural) 21 Sep 06 10:41
eFunda We are designing a rather large steel framed structure with all pinned connections, relying a
Eng-Tips Forums cross bracing in the walls in both directions. The story drift is rather small when the structure
is braced from the foundation up to the intersection of the roof girders and beams. Keep in
mind that if you design the cross bracing to take compressive forces, the l/r ratio is limited per
the AISC Code.
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If you attempt to fix the beam-column joint at the top, the drift might get excessive in the
direction of the rigid frame. Most pre-engineered metal bldgs use moment frames in the
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transverse direction but brace the walls in the long direction. All of their foundations are
engineering other technical
pinned. If the moment connection is not sufficiently rigid, you will get increased thrust (or
shear in the transverse direction) to resolve at the foundation. topics

archeng59 (Structural) 21 Sep 06 11:02

I try to avoid fixed supports whenever possible to avoid increased foundation costs due to
transferring the moments into footings or piers.

ironmon (Structural) 21 Sep 06 12:08

Dear GAEngr,
I would avoid the fixed bases, especially when you are able to use vertical bracing (king of
vertical stability!)

I do have a question regarding you computer model.

How are you distibuting the loads to the vertical bracing... horizontaly (ie, horzontal bracing,
diaphrams, like decking or concrete slab).
The lack of a horizontal system could be causing your instability issues.

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Structural engineering other technical topics - Pinned and Fixed Supports

VTPE (Structural) 21 Sep 06 12:47

One other thing to consider in the model. Recognize the difference between member end
fixity and boundary conditions. If you model the bottom of column as pinned and then attach
it to a pinned boundary condition, there is an inherent instability. A pin-pin connection has no
rotational or torsional stability and will rotate endlessly. Some computer programs recognize
this and lock the joints without telling you. The better way to model the base of the column is
have the column end fixity with no releases and frame it to a pinned boundary condition. This
may stop your instability problem.

UcfSE (Structural) 21 Sep 06 12:53

Are you using a 2D model or a 3D model? There's more to think about than a simple pin
when you are makinga 3D computer model, meaning fixing all of your translational DOF will
not necessarily provide a stable structure even though the reality is you are modeling the same
thing as you would with a 2D pinned support. Remember to check rotational DOF as well,
something you may not always think about when modelling a structure.

JStephen (Mechanical) 21 Sep 06 13:22

The model should reflect the actual construction that is proposed. If the actual construction
will use support points that cannot resist moments, then the model should not be fixed at those
points. It really sounds like you are having problems with the model, and not with the
structure. If you model a typical structure correctly, you may find structural inadequacies, but
an instability error implies something else is wrong.

patswfc (Structural) 22 Sep 06 5:42

As mentioned alreadly, if there are no clashes with windows, doors, services, etc., then I
would always go for a frame with pinned connections and bracing (usually cross bracing) to
provide stability.
It will be easier to analyse and design, fabrication will be much cheaper and foundations will
be cheaper.
Also the frame will be much stiffer than a moment frame which will reduce p-delta effects.

One point to note, depending on the design code you use, is beam end reactions on columns in
the computer model. In the UK were BS5950 is the code for design of steelwork, the code
states that for simple construction (pinned connections), beam end reactions should be taken as
acting 100mm from the face of the connection to introduce nominal moments in the columns.
The majority of frame analysis packages simply transfer the load for the beam as a pure axial
load on the column without an eccentricty.

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Structural engineering other technical topics - Pinned and Fixed Supports

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