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Etymology of The Word Rice
Etymology of The Word Rice
21/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
What is the earliest attestation of arici in tamil?
23/12/2008
Appandai Raj
C and S
The pronounciation of c and s has no difference,... Even in English 'rice' and 'rise' are
pronounced as same... Arici and Arisi has no difference in pronounciation....
24/12/2008
Unceasing
C and S
Ramakrishnan is talking about Cha and Sa
Sa and Sha are the Grantha inclusion into Tamil to accomodate Sanskrit loan words.
To understand whether Arici Rice) and Inchi (Giinger) were introuduced to the Romans from
India or did they directly go from China?
To understand this we have to see the earliest references to Rice and Ginger in Dravidian
literatures and others. Chai as used for tea is directly decended from the Chinese Tche. In
Tamil it is Thea and it is Tea in English.
The Tea example is used here as to give an idea of how Thea and Tea are more closely
resembling, but Tea came to South India through the Europeans.
Simillarly the use of the word Pariah as a synonym for untouchable/ outcast is used more
often than necessary but in Tamil it meaans a drummer but in Hindi it will mean the "others"
( Apna - Paraya). The context used for Pariah in the lexicon is to denote an outcaste person.
But in Tamilnadu it wiill not be used in the context of an outcast except by colonised,
immature politician like Subramani Swamy.
That is why one has to look at many other things when dealing with linguistics.
25/12/2008
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"When did Tamils start to pronounce 'c' as 's'? "
But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants. e.g. NiRithi as nairuthi
25/12/2008
ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth
I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada.
Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh
influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em
sEsEdi".
26/12/2008
Nrupatunga
I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada.
Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh
influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em
sEsEdi".
Ex: sanke a tooll used to dig mud is referred as chanke by my friend who hails from arisikere.
I remember hearing few more such examples,but unable to recollect them.But my point is that
even kannada is not completely out of this behavior.But this behaviour is not universal among
all kannada dialects.
26/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
Tamils pronounce unanimously ch as ch and s as s according to common rules.
Tamils have used the phonemes ch (ச) and s (ஸ) interchangeably, since medieval times. In
old tamil, only the phoneme ch was recognized. Perhaps this has been the case for certain
regional dialects of telugu and kannada as well.
A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity
of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and
chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil.
Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there
cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native
dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally.
Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain.
I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of
sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with.
It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil.
In Skt it is nakham. In tamil, it gets converted to the nearest phoneme (as there is no kha).
Thus in written tamil it is nakam, while in spoken tamil it is nagam.
If you see the ka, kha, ga... order; it is interesting to note that the kha becomes ka in written
tamil and ga in spoken tamil, while the original is kha.
But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants.
They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate
from the consonants ra and la.
28/12/2008
Srikant
They never pronounced pachai as passai.
Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain.
Words with cc and with n~c (alone) have not suffered this change. For example, an~cutal,
mUccu, etc. Words beginning with c are also pronounced with "c" rather than "s", like "collu"
(tell), by some people. These might have been "protected" by the conditional doubling done
when writing: "adaic col" (tell that), for instance. (This doubling is probably done to keep the
consonant from being voiced, but for c, it's done more preserving.)
Words in which -c follows a vowel, like icai, arici, pEcu, pAcam, (music, rice, talk,
affection/attachment) have all suffered this change.
28/12/2008
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity
of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and
chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil"
As i said earlier, it is due to and as per grammar rule and restriction only.
"Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there
cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native
dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally"
let it be. however, (sa, sha, śa) surely not sanskrit patented one. moreover they are not at all
necessary in Tamil. words starting with śa are rare not only in Tamil but also in other dravidian
languages, (cf. in sanskrit, No words start with thha (Th varga 2 letter).
"I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of
sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with.
It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil".
it is clearly mentioned in oxford dictionary as origin of oriental origion.
origin is
al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain)
a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)
al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil)
ari-arisi (rice = Tamil)
arisi- rice , O.Fr. ris, It. riso, L. oriza (cf. It. riso), Gk. oryza "rice,"
risotto
rice cooked in broth with meat and cheese, 1884, from It., from riso "rice" (see rice).
ari ->vari(rice = Tamil,Telugu)
Vari->varagu (varagu Rice=Tamil)
Varagu->(Veragu)->vireegi (rice = Tamil)
Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes)
Vari->(VaRRi)->Vatham (Paddy), Pady (rice in the straw=Malay), Paddy (English
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants.
They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate
from the consonants ra and la. "
NiRithi as nairuthi
kRipa->karpanya
MathRu (-bhasha)->Mathrika
31/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam)
Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu.
Malayalam displays both characteristics.
31/12/2008
Srikant
@ பாவாண ர
In Sanskrit, the following sandhi rules apply:
u + a = va,
i + a = ya,
If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into
consonants, so can R.
01/01/2009
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam)
Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu.
Malayalam displays both characteristics"
That is totally obscure. For the sake of argument, if I am wrong, Pls tell me, what is the
etymology of Vrihi in Sanskrit? From which, and how it was derived.
Vrihi form is not at all attested in IE languages. But Arisi form is found in IE languages (oryza
and not vriha)
01/01/2009
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into
consonants, so can R. "
Except sanscrit, consonant transformation into vowels is unaware in other languages. ha ha.
01/01/2009
Aniket Sengupta#
topic starter
orza is rice in latin (oryza sativa)
1 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ginger&searchmode=none
ginger
O.E. gingifer, from M.L. gingiber, from L. zingiberi, from Gk. zingiberis, from Prakrit (Middle
Indic) singabera, from Skt. srngaveram, from srngam "horn" + vera- "body," so called from
the shape of its root. But this may be Skt. folk-etymology, and the word may be from an
ancient Dravidian name that also produced the Malayalam(i.e.Tamil) name for the spice, inchi-
ver, from inchi "root." Cf. gin (v.).
1 Jan
Unceasing
Rice and Oryza
Ravigaru said:
It was a very nice and easy way to trace the metamorphosis of Arici from Varagu and the
corruption from Varagu to Vreehi.
Ramkrishnan said :
that I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because
of sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin
with. It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil.
How could the buyer of Rice from Greece give a name to a product of the producer? China and
India and the Southeat Asia has been the Rice bowl of the world and it can only get corrupted
from Asian name to a Greek one and not the other way round. But I do agree that words can
be introduced the native from a foreign influence like 'Saatham' is used for cooked rice in
Tamil, it is Chooru or Sooru. People tend to use Saatham more than Chooru in Tamil but in
Malayalam Chooru is used though it has more Skt. influence.
2 Jan
Srikant
I think that in 'arici' and such words, the original pronounciation for c would have been j,
which is a close relative of g. This is from extrapolating the norms for k, T, R, t and p.
3 Jan
Ramakrishnan
The etymology for arisi is most clearly attested in Tamil itself.
1. விரகி Viriki (from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1587.tamillex
2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex
3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax
as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex
Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi
Ramakrishnan
It may be true that oryza is derived from ari/arisi, but ari/arisi itself is derived from vrihi (see
above post)
4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex"
as already said, the Madras Tamil Lexicon was codified by some Tamil ignorant people.
in the cited website
விரஇ virīi
, n. < vrīhi. See விரகி, 1. நஙைக மார விரஇ யறறவர (சீவக. 89)..
the meaning of virīi is not rice but expansion. that poem states about breadth of chest alone
not the rice.
what a quote?
4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax
as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex
Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi. "
வர&sup7; vari
, n. < அர². cf. vrīhi. Paddy; ெநல. (பிங.) எடததவர மறததினிலிடட (தனிபபா. i, 354,
41).
cf in that citation means comparision(a latin word) and not derivation. moreover in that
citation, taxation based upon rice is not meant for.
So according to you, rice harvest is the basic reason for taxation. if so, south India esp Tamil
Nadu alone is named for rice cultivation as against Wheat of North India.
The Madras Law lexicon is codified illogically by Vaiyapuri Pillai and several Particular
community people who know nothing about Tamil etymology (hearsay recording).
4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
வர&sup7; vari
, n. < அர²
in your citation, it is clearly shown that the word வர (vari) is derivied from அர² (ari).
but according to you, from the word vari is derived from அர²(ari).
Erroneous presumption, rice cultivation was highest in the Indo-Gangetic plains in the past, it
also spread to south-India.
Wheat cultivation in Punjab and surrounding regions (instead of rice) is of recent origin.
Word-final gi cannot change to hi in sanskrit. But hi definitely could (and did) change to gi/ki
in dravidian (specially tamil).
Examples:
Drohi (skt) --> turoki (tam) = cheater
Deha (skt) --> tEkam (tam) = body
Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is
how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)
for the sake of argument, let it be. then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit. (if you can't you
can avail help from
hi-.ki change looks unlikely.also kannada has the habbit to change from va-ba and not va to a.
So i am doubtfull about this change.
It is very widely attested in Tamil, and since kannada (and telugu) adopted the phoneme set
of sanskrit after their split from tamil, we can unfortunately only use tamil for explaining the
change from hi to ki.
Kannada wouldnt have had that necessity since hi exists as a distinct phoneme in kannada.
Therefore the change from varihi to variki must have preceeded the kannada-tamil split.
ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth
Ramakrishnan wrote:
Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is
how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)
The more I look at how words look in Samskrita and their transformations (or derivations, if
you please) in Pali, I'm tempted to believe that Samskrita and Pali were diglossic. We've
discussed somewhere that Samskrita could have been a register used predominantly by royals
and scholars, and Pali more by the layman on the street - but if they indeed were - why have
they been treated as two separate languages? Diglossi-a (or is it digloss-ism?) exists in
perhaps all languages, but the most telling contemporary example is perhaps modern-day
Tamizh. I'd like to compare Samskrita to Centamizh and Pali to spoken, everyday Tamizh.
Now, examining the comparison purely from the prism of diglossia, am I ending up comparing
apples and oranges?!
did dravidians cultivated Rice as early as 7th century BC(time frame where experts estimate
the kannada tamil split)
I know that oldest reference to word Idli - fermented rice comes from a kannada literature of
10th century. So definatly people would have been knowing about rice much earlier than that.
I think there is, although it is not listed in the Pali Lexicon. So how much yarn is needed to
spin vIhi from arisi?
"virai" (in tamil) which I presume to be also derived from vrihi also later came to be used as a
stock word for any kind of seed that is sown (not just rice).
Dear Ram, thanks for giving the such a wonderful corroborative citation and support for my
argument, as it will attest my logic claim that the word rice is derived from the word Arici
having the origin in AL from which a:kam (grains)akki (kannada=Rice) are derived.
Not from Specific word a common word is derived. as only from the common word, a specific
word could be derived. as oil is derived from word oliva and the same was appliled to all kinds
of oils whether it is olive or not. Cf. petrol, ethanol etc, Tamil Ennei is used for all kinds of
oils[nallennai, kadalaiennei, vilakkennei, thaengaayennei] /manchi noone, gulaabi noone,
chenaga noone etc of Telugu.
From the words a:kam and virai, the words, rice, arisi, akki and even vireegi/vrihi (possibility
of origin from varagu could not be also ruled out)
The so called Varihi form is not found in Sanskrit(vedic/pali) and it is merely a supposition.
8 Jan (3 days ago)
Ramakrishnan
Possible etymology for varihi/vrihi
Varihi/Vrihi seems to be related to varI-/vAri (water/river) cf. "Deepwater Rice".
One more point - No change-trail is attested in Sanskrit/Prakrits for development of the word
vrIhI/varIhI
All the development/changes are attested only in Dravidian languages, which is also a strong
indication that the borrowing was done by dravidian.
If IA borrowed it from some dravidian form, it should have retained some form that is close to,
say arisi. "Arisi" itself cannot be native dravidian owing to lack of sibilants in early Dravidian as
I pointed out earlier. Enough said.