Integral City 2.0 Online Conference 2012 Appendices: A Radically Optimistic Inquiry Into Operating System 2.0 - 36 Interviews

Integral City 2.
0
Online
Conference
September 4-27, 2012
A Radically
Optimistic
Inquiry into
Operating
System 2.0
Interviews
Appendices A1-12
To Proceedings Report

Table of Contents Appendix A1-12
Note: These Appendices relate to the Integral City 2.0 Online Conference Proceedings
Appendix A-1: Ecosphere Intelligence..................................................................................
Interview Focus Speakers
Thought Leader
What is Ecosphere Intelligence? Dr. Bill Rees
Designers
What and where are designers
implementing Ecosphere Intelligence?
Dr. Brian Eddy
Dr. Michael Zimmerman
Practitioners
What and where are practitioners
implementing Ecosphere Intelligence?
Dr. Karen OBrien
Dr. Lummina Horlings
Appendix A-2: Emergence Intelligence.................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Emergence Intelligence? Dr. Buzz Holling
Designers
implementing Emergence Intelligence?
Jan deDood
Harrie Vollaard
(Rabobank)
Practitioners
implementing Emergence Intelligence?
Dr. Ian Wight
Will Varey PhD (cand.)
Appendix A-3: Living Intelligence .........................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Living Intelligence? Dr. Elisabet Sahtouris
Designers
implementing Living Intelligence?
Darcy Riddell
George Por
Practitioners
implementing Living Intelligence?
Bjarni Jonsson
Roberto Bonilla

Appendix A-4: Integral Intelligence.......................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Integral Intelligence? Ken Wilber
Designers
implementing Integral Intelligence?
Dr. Barrett Brown
Dr. Yene Assegid
Practitioners
implementing Integral Intelligence?
Jan Inglis
Graham Boyd
Appendix A-5: Cultural Intelligence ......................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Cultural Intelligence? Dr. Jean Houston
Designers
implementing Cultural Intelligence?
Gail Hochachka
Jon Hawkes
Practitioners
implementing Cultural Intelligence?
Ann Duffy
Milenko Matanovic
Carl Anthony
Paloma Pavel
Appendix A-6: Structural Intelligence ...................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Structural Intelligence? Mark DeKay
Designers
implementing Structural Intelligence?
Marleen Kaptein
Alex Van Oost
Practitioners
implementing Structural Intelligence?
Brian Robertson
Brett Thomas

Appendix A-7: Inquiry Intelligence........................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Inquiry Intelligence? Dr. Ann Dale
Designers
implementing Inquiry Intelligence?
Dr. Tam Lundy
Dr. Ian Wight
Practitioners
implementing Inquiry Intelligence?
Joanne DeVries
Ann Perodeau
Appendix A-8: Meshworking Intelligence .............................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Meshworking Intelligence? Dr. Don Beck
Designers
implementing Meshworking Intelligence?
Gail Hochachka
Dr. Bert Parlee
Practitioners
implementing Meshworking Intelligence?
Anne-Marie VoorHoeve
Morel Fourman
Appendix A-9: Navigating Intelligence..................................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Navigating Intelligence? Dr. Hazel Henderson
Designers
implementing Navigating Intelligence?
Gaetan Royer
John Purkis
Practitioners
implementing Navigating Intelligence?
Gil Friend
Christa Rust

Appendix A-10: Evolutionary Outer Intelligence ..................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Evolutionary Outer Intelligence? Steve McIntosh
Designers
implementing Evolutionary Outer
Intelligence?
Leo Burke
Beth Sanders
Practitioners
implementing Evolutionary Outer
Intelligence?
Peter Merry
Deirdre Goudriaan
Appendix A-11: Evolutionary Inner Intelligence...................................................................
Thought Leader
What is Evolutionary Inner Intelligence? Terry Patten
Designers
implementing Evolutionary Inner
Intelligence?
Craig Hamilton
Bruce Sanguin
Practitioners
implementing Evolutionary Inner
Intelligence?
Cindy Wigglesworth
Carissa Wieler
Appendix A-12: The Master Code
Thought Leader
What is Evolutionary Intelligence?
Dr. Marilyn Hamilton
Brett Thomas
Designers
implementing Evolutionary Intelligence?
Dr. Alia Aurami
George Por
Cherie Beck
Amy Oliver
Practitioners
implementing Evolutionary Intelligence?
Dr. Marilyn Hamilton
Beth Sanders
David Faber
Eric Troth

Planet of Cities: Mother Earth @ Motherboard
What and where are we implementing ecosphere intelligence?
Dr. Bill Rees
Interviewer: Dr. Marilyn Hamilton
September 4, 2012
Dr. William Rees, FRSC has recently retired as professor at the University of
British Columbias School of Community and Regional Planning. His primary
interest is in global environmental trends and the ecological conditions for
sustainable socioeconomic development. This takes his work is in the realm
of ecological economics and human ecology. Bill is the originator of the
"ecological footprint" concept, upon which he co-developed with his then
PhD student Mathis Wackernagel, ecological footprint analysis. This work
reopened debate on human carrying capacity as a consideration in sustainable
development. Rees is a founding member and recent past-president of the Canadian
Society for Ecological Economics. He is also a Fellow at the Post Carbon Institute and a co-
investigator in the "Global Integrity Project," aimed at defining the ecological and political
requirements for biodiversity preservation. Rees was awarded the 2007 Trudeau
Fellowship Prize, and in 2006 was elected as a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada
(FRSC).
Marilyn Hamilton: What is the relationship of the city to the eco-region?"
Bill Rees: This is an extremely important question as more and more people become
dwellers of cities. Over half the human population is now urbanized. And yet we have a
sort of cognitive dissonance here. Because, if you look up the definition of the city in
almost any dictionary or geography text youll find that people refer to it as a
concentration of population. Engineers might think of it as a great engineering triumph in
terms of its communications, technologies, transportation, sewer systems and all that sort
of thing. Artists and humanists will think of it as the intellectual capital of human existence.
Architects think of cities as the built environment and all of that. But, almost nowhere that
you search does anyone refer to the city as a living, breathing biological entity. And that is
really what I have attempted to do with my work with cities, to get people to understand
that cities are in fact biological entities. And, that when you think of them in those terms,
they are very much like a super organism - particularly a consumer organism.
Integral City eLab
1
January 27, 2013

Cities are consumers. Its odd because if we think of our economy, Jane Jacobs famously
calls cities the engines of national economic growth. And that is absolutely true. But to
grow things in the city, to grow the economy requires the consumption of vast quantities
of extraction from the countryside. So when you start thinking of a city as a whole system,
the actual built environment, the engineering miracle, the thing that we call the city is
really a tiny fraction in spatial terms of the whole system.
If you look at a typical high-income modern city such as Vancouver, New York or Paris, the
physical footprint of that city - its geographic area or its political area - is frequently only a
small fraction of the total area, less than one third of one per cent. So that the hinterland,
the supportive ecosystem that actually produces the materials consumed by people and
economic activities in the cities, may be three, four, five or even 1,000 times larger than
the city itself depending on the lifestyles and densities of the people in those cities.
So, we have a big difficulty here in that the way that most disciplines think of cities is
really thinking of only a tiny fraction of the whole human ecosystem. So, if we were to
create a single city [for the whole world] and have it function, it would have to be
surrounded by an ecosystem area several hundred times larger than itself. And that would
be necessary to make the system complete. The city, in effect, is a consuming node in a
vast fabric of production going on in the ecosystems outside of that city.
The ecosystems provide not only the resources that the city consumes, but also the
assimilative capacity the waste sinks to assimilate the waste generated by the economic
activity in the city. So there it is. The city as a system requires that we look beyond its
borders to a vast and in fact globally expansive hinterland. Because, with globalization and
trade, every citys footprint expands to almost every continent.
Marilyn Hamilton: Bill in thinking this way - which is at the root also of how I am trying
to think about cities - you have developed this concept of the ecological footprint. In order
to apply this view of the city, can you explain what you meant by that? How did you
develop it? What conclusions did you come to as a result of it?
Bill Rees: Early in my academic career, I was working on the concept of carrying capacity.
I was trying to see to what extent this concept from animal ecology could be transferred to
human beings. Carrying capacity is usually defined as the maximum average population of
a species that can be supported by a particular habitat or ecosystem without destroying
that ecosystem. So if you exceed the carrying capacity, if the population of deer is too great
they will eat themselves out of habitat for example. So carrying capacity is simply a
population number that indicates the safe level that an environment can sustain. I thought
that this must work also for people.
Back in the 1970s, I began to think - what is the carrying capacity of the lower mainland
of British Columbia? And it worked out, if I remember correctly, to about 35,000 to 40,000
people - or about something in that range. So in other words if we had no contact with the
outside world, and managed ourselves just on the productivity of the ecosystem in our
own region, the lower mainlands ecosystem could support about 35,000 people.
Integral City eLab 2 January 27, 2013

I gave a paper with my findings to a small conference. One of the attendees happened to be
a very prominent Canadian Resource Economist. And he came to me in all collegial faith
after that presentation and said, I really need to talk to you about this paper. Im going to
take you to lunch next week.
Which he did, and at that lunch he said, Look. I think you arent a stupid individual, but I
have to just say to you that if you continue in this line of inquiry, I can guarantee that your
academic career at UBC will be nasty, brutish, and short. What he was arguing was that
he as an economist was well aware of this vast literature that his economic colleagues had
put together which effectively abolished the concept of carrying capacity as it applied to
human beings. His argument was that we are not animals. We engage in trade. And why
should this region be constrained by its own resource endowment to supporting only
35,000 people, when it can import resources from all over the place and trade things that
it has in surplus to import those other resources? He said Look the population is already
1 million. (By the way it is now 2.5 million). So he was making a strong point that if the
carrying capacity is only 35,000 to 40,000 people, how can there be 1,000,000 people
living here?
Now, I have to say I was a wet behind the ears ecologist. I had never read any economics,
so these were powerful arguments to me. Maybe the concept is irrelevant to humans. If we
can import everything we are not constrained. He even went on to say, if we did run out of
something universally or globally, then human technology - our ingenuity - would
supplement the need for nature. And so we had a paradigmatic understanding of the
human relationship [with the natural ecosystem] that eliminated any thought of the limits
to human growth or human carrying capacity. We trade for everything we dont have
locally, and if that fails then technology can get us out of the hole.
I went away chastened by that. By the way, I have to explain that my colleague was
speaking to me in all good faith. He really was trying to help me out in my career. It wasnt
a nasty conversation. He was really kind and gentle. He was just trying to set a naive
colleague straight. But something bothered me about this whole intervention. I suppose it
took a couple of years to figure it out.
Lets invert the carrying capacity ratio. So instead of asking the usual question, How many
people can this area support? The question becomes how much area is needed to support
these people - no matter where on earth that area is? Because what my colleague didnt
understand, or at least we didnt talk about, is that when you import things from
elsewhere, you are importing productive capacity from someplace else: meaning that it is
not available to anyone-else anywhere-else on the planet. And so I began to realize that if I
could trace back to the land the flow of energy and material resources that went into any
particular region, I could come up with a number that represented the total area of the
surface of the earth dedicated to supporting my regional population. So I began to do that
for the lower mainland of British Columbia. And what we discover of course for people
that live in highly dense urban areas or cities in ecological terms doesnt actually live there
at all. The city is where they keep their bodies, but the productive capacity of the planet

that is sustaining their bodies is somewhere else. And they are drawing on those other
places through trade and through technological development in ways that are blind. We
are blind to it because our metrics simply dont monitor the impact that we are having on
these other places. At least they didnt until we came along with the ecological footprint
analysis.
In the early 90s, I had an exceptionally good student who started to work with me to do a
detailed study of the lower mainland in terms of eco footprint. And what we found was
that the region we are talking about occupies a space on the planet outside of its own
boundaries several tens of times larger than our actual region. So bits of Saskatchewan,
bits of China, bits of the United States and so on are constantly working to sustain the
population of this region and any other region we look at.
So to make a long story short, we now define the ecological footprint of a population as
that area of productive ecosystem required on a continual basis to produce the resources
that a population consumes and to assimilate its wastes particularly its carbon wastes
wherever on earth those ecosystems are located.
So again to reiterate, if you take almost any modern city the eco-footprint the area of the
earths surface needed to support the consuming habits of its population is typically
several hundred times larger than the highly densely populated urban core that we think
of as the city. So the city itself is a consuming node. That [means]complete human urban
ecosystems must be redefined to include not only the city, but also the vast lacework of
habitat elsewhere on the planet that is effectively imported through trade to sustain the
economic activities and the human metabolism of that region - that urban region we call
the city.
Marilyn Hamilton: It is fascinating to me that we can now accept something [the eco
footprint] 20 years later as something that has entered the lexicon and now appears to
have really deep roots. When you finished those calculations and came up with those
hundreds times of the square area that was need to support a city, you also came up with
an equation that has become pretty well known with people who think about
sustainability. How did you translate that carrying capacity to relate it to the globe?
Bill Rees: If you think of a typical Canadian. If you are an average Canadian, with an
average material lifestyle, which means there are some people much below this and many
people much above this, it takes about seven average hectares of productive land and
water to sustain your lifestyle. This has been confirmed over and over again by many
studies. So lets say the average Canadians needs 7 hectares (by the way if you are an
American audience multiply that by 2.47so its something like 18 acres) to sustain a single
person, all in. If we look around the world and add up all the productive components of
the land and waterscape of the earth: oceans, grasslands, croplands, grazing areas,
woodlands and forests - you get an entire productive land surface of the planet that is
about 12 billion hectares. Now there are already seven billion people living on earth. So if
you divide those 12 billion hectares by seven billion, you come up with something like 1.7

or 1.8 hectares per capita. So on the planet today we only have 1.7 or 1.8 hectares per
capita of biologically productive landscape and waterscape. That is to say sufficiently
productive to sustain human activities.
And yet, the average Canadian needs seven to keep our high-end consumer lifestyle viable.
So we use in Canada about four times our fair share of the worlds ecosystems. And of
course for that to happen, there has to be a very large number of people using far less than
their fair share. In fact that is what our eco-footprints studies show us. There are countries
in the poorest parts of Asia and Africa, Malawi for example, where people get along on the
productivity and assimilative capacity of about one third of a hectare.
There are one billion people on earth living way, way above their fair share, but a large
number a similar number of people living far below their fair share of earths capacity.
Moreover, (and this is really quite problematic), the average person on earth needs 2.5
hectares per earth to sustain him- or herself. So Canadians need an average of seven
hectares and by the way some other countries go beyond that. The poorest of the poor get
by on less than a third, some maybe a half of a hectare. The average person needs 2.5
hectares to survive or at least live at their current level and yet there is only 1.8 hectares
per capita on earth. So we have a situation in which globally we are in a state of what we
call overshoot.
The average person on the planet today is using 40-50 per cent more than the earth can
replenish in any particular seasonal cycle. And this means that we are living part of the
year past what we call the overshoot day the day of the year in which we have used all
of the productivity of the Earth occurred recently on August 22
nd
. On August 22
nd
in 2012
the world population had consumed all of the productive output of the planet or its entire
assimilative capacity for this year.
So that means for the rest of the year, we are drawing down our natural capital base. The
fisheries are declining, the soils are eroding, the carbon dioxide that we will emit from
now on will accumulate in the atmosphere. So we are in a state of overshoot. Simply
meaning, the human ecological footprint is now larger than the entire bio capacity of the
planet by a factor of 40-50 per cent. So this means that we are literally depleting the
ecosystems that are necessary to continue to sustain the human population.
Now this can go on for some years or decades because of the enormous stores of bio-
capacity and natural capital that have accumulated over time in nature. It took something
like 8,000 years for the richest prairie soils in Canada to form in the post glacial period.
But we have managed to dissipate half of that soil in terms of the natural organic matter
and nutrients in just 120 or so years of mechanical agriculture. So we have some years to
go.
But the point is, 10,000 years or 8,000 years of soils accumulation is being dissipated in a
couple of centuries. And that is an astonishing reality when we recognize that the same is
true of virtually all of our other resources. So we are drawing down our petroleum, we are
overfilling our waste sinks. That is why we have climate change. We are drawing down the

fish stocks which, is why we see fisheries collapsing. And at some point there simply will
not be adequate productive capacity in the remaining ecosystems of the planet to sustain
us at any decent standard of living. And then we have the potential of descending in to
conflict and chaos over the remaining assets.
In fact, we have just seen the publication this past couple of months by Michael Klare of a
book called The Race for Whats Left. Michael Klare is famous for his books on the
conflicts that result when the resources get scarcest. He is now suggesting that we are in a
global race for the remaining resources precisely because we are in a state of overshoot
which is clearly shown by our ecological foot print analysis.
Marilyn Hamilton: I remember when you published your book the point that we needed
three to four planets to live in a city like Vancouver. This background around the
overshoot paints a much more granular picture. The image of needing more than our one
planet was initially a big shock.
Bill Rees: Yes it is a big shock. Our method is much more refined now. Since the book, the
global population has increased by a couple of billion since and our resource base has
declined. Lets think about if Canadians are using four times their fair share of the planet,
then it is clear that if everyone lived at the same material standard as Canadians then we
would need at least three maybe four additional planets to sustain that population
sustainably. As (Steve Forbert) once said, Good planets are quite hard to find.
Marilyn Hamilton: Yes, I think we are finding that. Bill, in the picture you are painting, it
seems to me we need to consider not just sustainability, but what does resilience mean?
We have not only pushed our population out, but there have been a number of disasters
that have occurred that have stressed the population and stressed our cities. Since you
have started with the concept of the eco-footprint and you have given us some indication
of just how granular the re-thinking has occurred since then. How has your thinking
evolved around how we can respond to the threats to the city and planet today? Is there
hope? Does the race for whats left give us any indication that if we changed our ways we
could actually come up with a different end state?
Bill Rees: Absolutely, the potential for change is enormous. Some estimates in North
America suggest that we throw away 30 or 40 per cent of our edible food because of the
increase of waste coming out of restaurants and peoples increasing failure to store food
properly and so on and so forth. There are many, many, many ways, in which we could
squeeze a great deal more productivity, if you like to put it that way, out of our system,
just by getting more efficient. Who needs a 300 horse power vehicle to go to the corner
store to get a bottle of wine? Yet that is the way we profligately dissipate our remaining
resources. It is really almost criminal when you think about it. In fact future generations
may well think of us as being certainly morally negligent if not criminally negligent in the
incredible waste that we can find particularly among the rich democracies today.
We know that there are off the shelf technologies that if we were to apply them it would
enable us to produce two or three or four time as much as we do now without any

increase in inputs. These new technologies cost more. And because the upfront costs are
higher, people are reluctant to take them on.
A very simple example would be the compact florescent light bulb which uses only a to
1/5 of the energy of an incandescent light bulb and lasts ten times as long. So as people
shift to a different form of lighting technology (and by the way with the new lights that are
on the way even this is going to look primitive) we could save four or five times as much
energy as we now use. But of course those new light bulbs are more expensive so people
dont buy them.
What we need then is a massive adjustment of our pricing system to induce people to use
those new technologies. We would call that true social cost pricing. If governments were
not afraid to implement such things as carbon taxes and other forms of pollution taxes we
could be well on the way to adopting these new technologies.
Some would say, look - the cost would go up astronomically. But when you think about it
carefully, you realize that if I had a car that was three or four times more efficient or used
three of four times less fuel, it wouldnt matter to me if the gas were three or four times as
much because I would be paying exactly the same to get exactly the same service. I would
simply be using less because my vehicle required much less. And we can say that about
almost everything in our economy. There are vast opportunities for efficiency gains and
improvements. But we are not doing any of these things.
The political system is completely bogged down in a false cultural narrative based on
unlimited growth, based on individualism. Weve almost sanctified greed. Weve seen
many articles in the newspaper in recent years talking about greed being good because as
everyone works in their own self interest (this is a perversion of Adam Smith) it improves
the lot of everyone in society.
Well that is clearly not the case in the kind of world that we live in today. So on the one
hand, while we need strong government intervention in the economy to fix so called
market failures. Climate Change is the perfect example of market failure. We need this
intervention so that the prices of goods and services reflect their true cost of production.
We need those true costs reflected in order to induce structural changes in the economy
that will result in improved technologies and better consumer behavior. But we are
getting none of that. Instead we are seeing deregulation of the economy - deregulation of
even environmental regulation.
In Canada in all but the last couple of months the government has all but eliminated
environmental assessment. It has gutted the Fisheries Act. It is doing everything it can to
smooth the way for more rapid resource development and exploitation to take advantage
of the short term economic gains to be made because the world is in a scramble for what is
left. So instead of people acting responsibly in a long term vision of the future, we are
acting irresponsibly in a negligent way really to take advantage of short term economic
opportunities and abandoning our moral responsibility not only to present generations of
poor people but, future generations.

It seems to me that even though it is entirely possible technologically and in terms of our
organizational skills to imagine a much better, cleaner and stable economic and ecological
future for everyone. The way governments are responding today is to reinforce the 50
year old expansionist global narrative that assumes that we can grow forever and
technology will always bail us out if we run into problems. So the potential is there, but
governments are failing utterly to take advantage of this remaining period of time and
pushing us ever closer to the brink in which there will be a scramble for whats left. And
that imposes dire consequences for us all.
These are really huge questions and it is really difficult to pull all these threads together to
help people realize that there is a huge difference between potential and what is actually
happening out there. We are simply not exercising our existing technologies, our existing
brain power, but instead falling back on a relatively ill thought out economic models that
favor perpetual growth and deregulation.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you Bill for outlining what we need at a political level and a
technological level, as to what we need as a whole new paradigm to think about the city -
for thinking of the world as a living system. I know that you have extended your concern
for the impasse that we are facing by considering what is it that makes us human? Do we
have any qualities of being human that might actually open up new thinking, new
paradigms, and innovations to get us through this impasse? I invite you to share your
speculation about that.
Bill Rees: Human beings are very complex animals, and we are animals. Like other species
we have a component of our nervous system that is largely instinctive. Like other species
we have a very strong emotional component of our nervous system.
But, unlike other species we have a very well developed cerebral cortex, the big part of the
brain that actually occupies two thirds of the human brain by volume. This is the seat of
what I call high intelligence. It is the seat of our capacity for logical analysis. It is seat of
language. In fact it is this part of our brain that allows the kind of cultures that we have to
be possible.
Let me cut to the chase here. There are several qualities that I think help isolate humans
from the rest of the pack as it were. The first is high intelligence the capacity to reason
logically from the evidence. The second capacity is our unique ability for forward planning.
We have complete potential to take the evidence, to take the data, to understand the
situation, and change the circumstance so that we create a much better future than the
one that would otherwise unfold. No other species can do that. No other species has the
capacity for logical analysis and no other species can forward plan the way that humans
can.
A third quality that we have, that is almost not present in any other species is our ability to
make moral judgments. Humans do have the ability to tell what is right from what is
wrong. There is no culture which condones meaningless murder for example. This is a
capacity which is there and is embodied in the law of any civilized country.

Another thing that we have is an ability to empathize and sympathize with other
individuals and with other species. I suppose it is unique that humans are the only species
that can empathize with the fate of other species. And many of us, particularly those of us
with some training in biology or ecology, are enormously affected and are almost in
grieving because of the enormous increase in biodiversity loss.
As the human enterprise increases in scale, since this is a finite planet, we are literally
pushing the other species off the lifeboat so to speak. By taking over their habitats, by
using the resources that would normally be available to these other species to grow
ourselves, we literally eliminate them, so that thousands of species are going extinct every
year. Any compassionate person should be able to understand the moral wrongness of this
by almost any standard in civilized society.
There you have it, humans are uniquely capable of high intelligence, of forward planning
and of morality and of extending compassion to other individuals and to other species.
But, we are failing to exercise those capacities in the global domain that we are talking
about. Instead of looking at the data and recognizing that climate change is a fact, that
biodiversity loss is fact, that the oceans are acidifying and that if these trends continue at
projected rates, they mean chaos - the loss of thousands of species and the potential
undermining of the potential future of global civilization - instead of looking at that in the
long term using our rational capacity to analyze the data and to act accordingly, we are
acting instinctively and emotionally out of our short term individual self-interest to
capture the economic gains possible in this struggle for resources.
Humans are a conflicted species. On the one hand rationally and intelligently we
understand the dilemma. But on the other, we are falling back into ancient survival tactics
that are short sighted and individually focused. These are overriding our intelligence
capacity. I think this is a terrible situation.
And, if we dont manage to raise to consciousness this reality, if we fail to recognize that
we are not using the qualities that make us truly human, that separate us from the rest of
the pack, then the same thing that happens to other species - that go through a plague
phase of population, explosion and collapse - will also happen to humans. This will be a
failure of a great evolutionary experiment.
Humans have been endowed with this intellectual capacity this big brain it is an
experiment. It separates us from the pack. But if we dont exercise that in ways that give
us a selective advantage over other species, then we will be selected out. If we continue to
destroy the ecological basis of our own existence while the evidence stares us in the face,
then I dont think there is any question that global civilization will implode in the same
way that regional civilizations have imploded in the past when they paid no attention to
their over exuberance, to their destruction of the resource base that sustained them. It has
happened over and over again.
When they allowed their administrative systems to become cumbersome, inefficient, non-
effective, corrupt so that leaders and elites were not responsive to the needs of ordinary

people - those systems collapsed. So we see both the social and ecological rot at the core of
our current civilization that may well lead us to the same implosion that other civilizations
before us have followed.
So what Im calling for is a raising of consciousness of the superb abilities that humans
have and for leaders to step forward and recognize that the steps we are taking, the global
cultural narrative, the development paradigm, is ultimately a destructive one when we
recognize that this is a finite planet on which infinite growth and all-out competition
simply no longer works.
It might have been harmless many years ago when the scale of the human enterprise was
tiny compared to the scale of the massive ecosystems and the ecosphere. But we have now
grown - the human enterprise has now grown - to the point where we are the greatest
geological force altering the fate of the planet. We are at the same scale as other major
forces in the ecosphere. And hence the fact that we are acting as a complete rogue species
matters a great deal. We have the capacity to push the global ecosphere beyond tipping
points into different domains of stability that may not be amenable to human existence.
And I think this is entirely possible if we maintain our current course within the next few
decades certainly within this century.
Marilyn Hamilton: And yet the four qualities that you speak of here, sound like if we did
lean into them, then we would have a chance to redefine our relationship with the earth?
And that opens up a way for us to be in a different relationship with the earth and with
each other and with other living systems on the earth.
Bill Rees: Absolutely. There are so many questions that are being raised here. People
either refer to the new emerging literature on human cognitive psychology and
evolutionary psychology where there are even questions as to whether we are capable of
exercising free will over these issues. But let me back up a bit before I get into that.
We have, like other species, certain innate tendencies. Humans do have a natural tendency
to expand. We have the largest geographic range of any advanced vertebrate on the planet.
We do have an inherent tendency to use up all available resources as does any other
species. Just think of the fact that we are now literally scraping the bottom of the barrel to
get the last reserves of oil and coal and gas and so on out of the earth. So those are
tendencies that are there in our biology. In ancient times they accounted for our enormous
success. We did those things better than any other species and hence have managed to
survive in evolutionary terms and have reproduced to occupy the planet. But the very
qualities that were highly adaptive 10,000, 100,000 and 500,000 years ago have become
maladaptive today. Those qualities on a crowded planet with increasing resource scarcity
can be fatal. And we have the intelligence to recognize that. That is why it is so important
to understand the four qualities I mentioned earlier. It is entirely possible for human
beings to create social paradigms or cultural narratives that override their natural
predisposed dispositions.
Integral City eLab January 27, 2013 11
We dont have to follow natural predisposed dispositions. We can create cultural
paradigms that inhibit them and steer us in other directions. If you think again of what I
refer to as the human behavioral spectrum, people are capable of being selfish, of thinking
in the short term, but they are also capable of being humanitarian and having a long term
view. So we could draw almost a color spectrum of human behavioral characteristics from
dark somber colors to very bright lively colors. These are all inherent in us, we are all
capable of expressing selfishness or very open community type feeling for family, affection,
love and all that kind of stuff. Altruism is a potential in human kind.
If you create a cultural narrative in the darker colors then you are in trouble. So right now
we have created, particularly in the past 60 years, a cultural narrative that reinforces the
expansionist tendencies, the greed tendency, the selfish tendencies, the individual
tendencies of human beings. So we have both nature and nurture operating to create of us
a rogue species whose rogue behaviors are completely incompatible with the finite nature
of the ecosystems that support us.
The potential is there for us to work diligently together, a massive exercise of
international cooperation to rewrite our cultural narrative. To come up with a cultural
narrative that emphasizes cooperation, the sharing of available resources, the community
orientation, to re-resurrect the notion of family life, community life and so on and so forth
in ways that would be far more enriching to peoples emotional lives than the current
isolationist, individualistic every person for him or herself grab-it-all culture that we have
evolved in the last 50 or 60 years.
The important thing is to recognize is that we have the potential to re-write our cultural
narrative. We have the potential behavioral and psychological properties to rise to the full
challenge of using our unique human abilities but for whatever perverse reason, in the
past 60 years, we have in a sense conspired to create a world that reinforces the worst
dimensions of human behavior for the circumstances and to reinforce those aspects of
human biology, the expansionist tendencies that are wrecking the planet. That is why the
exercise you are engaged in is so very important as a consciousness raising exercise. We
will not pull through if we do not recognize that we are headed in the wrong direction.
Its interesting to me that people say listening to you Bill, you are so pessimistic, this is
such a downer. And I say, Nonsense, this isnt a downer, this is an upper. The downer is
the mainstream. The downer is the current cultural paradigm that is taking the ship down
the vortex. The bright side is what Im saying to us. That we have this opportunity, we
have these potentials, we have this capacity to wake up from our somnambulance - to
snap awake and come to consciousness and recognize that unless we pull together we
wont make it. Sustainability is a collective enterprise. The very idea that we can solve it as
individuals in an individualistic competitive society is an absolute absurdity. I think
anybody that thinks about it for 10 minutes will come to that realization. And therein lies
the potential for us to wake up from our long sleep.
Marilyn Hamilton: Bill you are talking in the way that I am framing the conference, in
what Ive called radical optimism. I invited you to be the opening speaker because I did
feel that the safest place in a threatening situation is with the hard truth. And you have
discovered the hard truth over the last decades. In order for us to grow up as a species -
perhaps we can even say the rogue species - might be the equivalent of a teenager not yet
aware of their power or of their consciousness.
My invitation is that our species not only wake up, but that we grow up and take
responsibility for our actions because our Mother Earth is not going to stick around and
support what we are doing now. As you pointed out earlier, there are consequences for
our current actions and as you have just shared, there is also this enormous potential in us.
And it is that potential, that I hope to help discover in the conference, so that we will
create a new cultural narrative.
And so I thank you so much for bringing to us to the hard truths - a way to think about
them - but also what lies at the heart of our the human species that distinguishes us in an
evolutionary way from the other life systems on the earth. And I think we are ready to
look into that for the rest of the conference. Thank you so much.

Integral City eLab January 27, 2013
1
Planet of Cities Mother Earth @ Motherboard
What and where are we implementing ecosphere intelligence?
Speakers: Brian Eddy and Michael Zimmerman
Host: Eric Troth
Interviewer: Beth Sanders
September 4, 2012

Michael E. Zimmerman is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of
Colorado at Boulder. From 2006-2010, he was director of the Center for
Humanities and the Arts. Before coming to CU Boulder, Zimmerman spent
31 years at Tulane University in New Orleans, where he was a member of
the philosophy department and co-director of Environmental Studies.
Author of about one hundred scholarly articles and book chapters,
Zimmerman has also published a major anthology--Environmental
Philosophy: From Animal Rights to Radical Ecology (4th edition)--and four books: Eclipse
of the Self; Heideggers Confrontation with Modernity; Contesting Earths Future; and
most recently, Integral Ecology: Uniting Multiple Perspectives on the Natural World (co-
authored with Sean Esbjorn-Hargens). Zimmerman has also had a long-standing research
interest in the philosophy of technology, including the cultural problems and
opportunities posed by emerging technologies.

Dr. Brian Eddy is a research scientist with Natural Resources Canada at the
Grenfell Campus of Memorial University in Corner Brook, Newfoundland &
Labrador. He completed a PhD in Geography and Environmental Studies at
Carleton University in 2006, following a BScH in Geology 1987), and an MSc
in Earth Sciences (1996). Brian has over 25 years experience in the
application of geomatics for a wide range of areas including coastal zone
management; regional ecosystems analysis and land-use planning; and mapping
indicators of human and environmental sustainability and wellbeing. Both his doctoral
and his current research focus on spatial analysis and modeling of human-environment
interactions and ecological risk analysis in support of Ecosystems-based Management
(EBM) Decision-Making. Brian developed the concept of Integral Geography which
presents ways of integrating both ecological (natural systems) and human dimensions
(human systems) for applications in regional development and planning.

Beth Sanders: It's my pleasure to introduce this session by first framing it within the
theme of this first week for the conference. We believe that if we want a new future for the
City then we need a new operating system for the City. This weeks focus in particular is
on a planet of cities: thinking about Mother Earth as the motherboard [of a new operating
system]. Todays theme is ecosphere intelligence and in Marilyn Hamiltons book Integral
City she defines ecosphere intelligence as an awareness and a capacity to respond to the
reality that is the city's climate and its eco-region environment. This second session today,
has a focus on design leaders who are applying this intelligence to city design. So it is now
my pleasure to introduce to you all Brian Eddie and Michael Zimmerman. I'm going to
introduce them both and then the three of us are going to jump into a three-way
conversation that Brian and Michael have already started and I'm going to weasel my way
in on. They are full of energy.
Dr. Brian Eddy is a research scientist with the Natural Resources Canada in
Newfoundland. ... Both his doctoral and his current research focus on spatial analysis and
modeling of human environment interactions and ecological risk analysis in support of
eco systems-based management decision-making. Brian developed the concept of integral
geography. For Brian integral geography represents a way of integrating both ecological
or natural systems and human dimensions - the human systems - for applications in
regional development and planning.
Michael Zimmerman is a professor of philosophy at the University of Colorado in Boulder
and from 2006 to 2010 he was director of The Center for Humanities and Arts. He has
published a major anthology entitled Environmental Philosophy: From Animal Rights to
Radical Ecology and four other books. Michael also has a long-standing research interest in
cultural problems and opportunities posed by emerging technologies.
While I've been getting ready for these interviews I've been very curious about Brian's
take on the support systems that we need for decision makers and citizens alike. When I
get a chance to speak more with Michael, I want to talk about whether we are really able
to design for the design we're talking about. So to begin with gentlemen, Brian and
Michael, Im going to first put a question to Brian and just to get it started, Brian what is
important about ecosphere intelligence?
Brian Eddy: To start things off, I was thinking of going back to some basic principles. I
think they are illustrated in integral theory as well as what Marilyn mentions in her book,
and the work of Ken Wilber and his development of integral theory. Whats important
behind the idea of ecosphere intelligence is having a level of awareness or consciousness
or the ability to think about problems in an ecological context. That we as human beings
and the places we live: cities, towns, even small places, we are not islands unto ourselves.
We actually depend upon the ecological processes and systems, that surround where we
live. We are going through a period in history where that has become a fundamental
realization that we have to take into account, in how we approach design planning.
I provided a couple of figures that I'm assuming that those [listening] might be looking at
those figures now. Just to set the context for this, one figure, Marilyn included in her book:
Figure 1. And this is something I did a number of years ago. It's another way of looking at
emergence and evolution from the AQAL [all quadrants, all levels] perspective. And going
back to set the context for this kind of diagram, I would like to point out one of my favorite
quotes from Ken Wilber is from a book that he wrote in1984 I think called Eye-to-Eye: the
Quest for the New Paradigm. Ken mentions when he was talking about some theory and to
paraphrase or quote him in some respects he said, In order to situate this theory in the
big scheme of things, one first needs a big scheme of things. Thats what integral theory is
about in a sense. Its kind of a humorous statement in a way. But if we were take the
question of today or the question of this eLab series, we might ask the question, How
should we put cities in the big scheme of things? And what will the big scheme of things
be?
If we look at evolution from the vantage point of what's shown in Figure 1, we come from
a universe in the solar system and the planet evolved with a lithosphere and a
hydrosphere and an atmosphere. Things kind of evolved or progressed and evolved in a
series of levels or levels of complexity. The key point to understand is that each level
depends upon the preceding levels that came before it. That is a fundamental principle of
ecology and certainly one of integral theory.
So we are looking at the point in evolution where human beings emerge and then
civilization formed roughly within the last 10,000, 20,000 or 100,000 years. Over the
period of evolution there has been a sort of space-time contraction from the broad
universe all the way up to the point where we have some very massive cities across the
planet. And those cities are focal points of a lot of energy and material that are supporting
human beings in the directions that they might want to go - and the way we want to live
with all that matter and energy that does come from the environment around us.
Throughout the modern period, when we were building a lot of major cities around the
world, the modernist philosophy was that resources that we used to supply the materials
to build cities were thought to be sort of unlimited. And, that nature was there to serve
human endeavors and not necessarily there to have any intrinsic value in itself. But I
think we can understand following Bill Rees this morning with the idea of the ecological
footprint, that there are limitations to the biosphere and the physiosphere and the other
aspects of the planet that we live on. These limitations do set constraints on how much
energy and matter we can draw from these resources.
Some of the most significant problems we face: whether it's urban planning, city design,
building infrastructure - whatever the case might be - some of those design issues have to
do with this sort of incongruent nature - that modernist ideas of mechanical approaches to
building things are now at odds with how the ecology of a region functions. We have to
take ecological design into account to make cities more sustainable so that we do not
undermine the support systems that we need to support cities. At the same time, there a
lot of human issues that we address simultaneously by taking those design approaches.
How we do that is a big discussion or topic for this interview. I guess we'll get into that.
This is certainly Michaels favorite subject. We talked about it number of times. How do we
take this level of understanding and work with it in a very practical and meaningful way
with many of the issues that we face in the urban development today?
The next slide (Figure 2) is also something of a repeat of a lot of the information that
Marilyn presented in her book from a theoretical perspective. But the challenge is because
such a significant portion of the population are not quite yet at this level of thinking, how
do you design for cities where human behavior is at some distance from this level of
understanding or appreciation of the contingencies? Where people in day-to-day lives are
more concerned about how they get food on the table at the end of the day. Cities are
preoccupied with not so much trying to create a utopian vision of the city, but how to
replace the infrastructure that was laid down 100 years ago.
Beth Sanders: Brian, you have put a really critical question to us. And I want to put this
question to Michael. How do we design for ecosphere intelligence with the life conditions
that we have today in our City?
Michael Zimmerman: Brian and I had a really good discussion last week. We probably
should have recorded it since we came up with all kinds of what I think were pretty good
insights. I also like to say how impressed I am with Marilyns book, Integral City. She
really made a huge contribution with that. There is a lot of material in there that is way
beyond my expertise. I dont really do urban studies or urban ecological studies. Im more
into environmental studies. Since we now have passed the threshold with more than 50
per cent humanity in cities, the future of environmental ethics and environmental
philosophy is really going to have to be about the city-nature interface as Brian was
suggesting a few moments ago. One of the things that Marilyn really brings out in her book,
which is subtitled Evolutionary Intelligences for the Human Hive: first, she doesn't say
evolutionary intelligence (singular), she says intelligences is plural. So right away as a
reminder that there's not really one kind of intelligence - there is just vast numbers or
types of intelligences. This is something very important to keep in mind. Second, is the
human hive. One of the big themes that has come out in the past 20 years in cognitive
research of various kinds is the idea of hive-mind.
Kevin Kelly's book Out of Control came out in the mid 90s and was the first semi-popular
stab at trying to make sense of the hive-mind. And that is to say how numerous individuals
interacting with one another without a particular plan in mind give rise to phenomenon
that they did not anticipate. I think this is a really important key to understanding what's
going on in cities - especially developing cities. As Brian pointed out to me last week, so
many of fairly old cities cities that are 200 years old or so or even 100 years old - have
enormous infrastructure such as roads, buildings, electrical power-lines. Trying to retrofit
those kinds of cities with cutting-edge technology is a daunting task. Cities in developing
countries that are growing by leaps and bounds don't have this kind of investment yet. In
a way, they are probably the proving grounds for a lot of innovations which would be
more expensive to implement in first world countries.
It'll be really interesting to see the extent to which they can take the lead [in developing]
through the hive-mind process going on in every city; generating to some extent
unintentionally, solutions that might be very much important for cities around the world.
That is I think something we have to hope for. Its nothing we can control.
I do want to mention one other thing before going back to Beth and Brian. That is the
wonderful book Stewart Brand wrote a couple years ago called Whole Earth Discipline: An
Eco-Pragmatist Manifesto. This is in many ways an integral book even though Brand is not
really [framing] with integral theory or the integral movement. He has a wonderful
chapter on urban ecology and I highly recommend his seventeen minute TED talk based
on his book. It is a real eye-opener. This is the guy, who for me, really solidifies the notion
that the action in the future is in developing world cities. We see photographs of the
terrible conditions people living in these massive slums stretched out for miles up and
down the mountainsides. It looks awful. And it is in many ways. On the other hand, as he
points out the people in those cities are smart and ambitious. They want to get out of
those conditions. They want to innovate and create opportunities for themselves. And
they're going to do it. The thing that our integral theory and our evolutionary intelligence
can contribute to the picture is an emphasis on at interior side of the hive. We dont think
bees have very much interiority. They have a little bit. But humans certainly do. If urban
planners are to make a difference in these developing cities, they need to emphasize the
cultural means - the first-person and cultural levels of experience - which are interacting
with one another as a major factor in the production innovations. Designers that consider
these factors are going to make a difference because they'll be accepted and affirmed by
people in the cities.
Beth Sanders: Thank you Michael. So I'm wondering Michael if I could dig a little bit
deeper with you around how we design for ecosphere intelligence. Can we design for it?
Michael Zimmerman: I don't know if we can design for it. I asked myself, how did I get to
where I got? How did I get to writing books about integral ecology, teaching courses with
this in it, and thinking this way? It took me a long time. It is not something that came
overnight. Maybe if I were 22 today or a senior in college these ideas would come easier
because they are in part of the zeitgeist. I think these ideas are starting to become widely
available. Even though they don't have the word integral associated with them, I think
there is an emergence taking place.
[Let me tell you about] One of the areas [where] this is occurring - and Brian is someone
who knows more about this than I do. But I know if you'd look back 20 or 30 years ago
how the World Bank and World Development Financing, and so on, used to take place, it
was all lower right [in the integral quadrants]. It was all about the economic incentives
and structures; social structures; and so on. These were more or less imposed upon
people. The claim being that they worked elsewhere so they are going to work here as well.
What was completely missing was taking seriously the cultural domain [the lower left in
the integral quadrants] in which these practices and ideas were being implemented. One
reason so many of these programs failed or never lived up to their potential, was that the
cultural mean - the interior aspects of culture and society - were not taken into account. I
think in the last 20 years this has changed a lot. There is increasing recognition that if you
offer people something which you, coming from first world, think is going to do them
some good, you better be sure you have on the ground conversations with not only
leaders but also regular people. Ask them what they think about it. How do their values
relate to this innovation or this idea? That is an increasingly important thing.
This idea of interiorities and the encounter with and taking seriously the interiorities of
individuals and cultures can really take hold in the social sciences and as well as in major
urban planning. That would really be a huge contribution to human-hive intelligence or
cities.
Beth Sanders: One of the things that Bill Rees was very clear about for me this morning
was the simple notion that there is a new cultural narrative that needs to emerge - where
we move away from the expansionist or the economic structure focus that we've had. We
shift into exactly what you are describing Michael about that the left-hand quadrants [of
the integral model] where were talking not only about on the interior of the inner
workings if the individual, but also of the culture. Brian Id like to bring you back in. I
would like to check in with you about the ways of working that you have been exploring
with geomatics and that kind of thing. Are there ways we can work using technology that
brings a new cultural narrative out to the front for us to see?
Brian Eddy: Yes, absolutely. One point that I would like to make is that in some ways the
way we regard the ecosphere intelligence is already emerging. The things that are
happening on the Internet and what we call ubiquitous computing where people get their
maps on their cell phones, where they can walk down the street and find a restaurant they
are looking for and so forth. This is a new way of the generating information. It is a new
culture. There is no doubt about it. This culture is already emerging. What is important
about that is that information is now being contextualized around individual preferences
and behavior on a locational basis. And in some ways that's an ecological paradigm. When
it comes to things like city planning, if you bring up the [property of] scale, that is also the
sort of paradigm shift that we would see occurring there. We don't take one master
template of the city - whether [it]is a central place theory one or the standard grid
structure - and try to fit it into every corner. What we try to do is be innovative with the
region that we are working within. We try to see what kind of innovations we can come up
with.
What it really comes down to, is a tension between the city management and city planning.
Were still at the beginning of building what will be the planets long living sustainable
cities. Over the next 100 or 200 years, it's really up to the designers and planners to take
the ecological principles into account. Not too much pressure on the planners out there,
but basically, yes, it's really up to them. A lot of people may not be aware of a lot of this
stuff. The ones who are really leading the way are the innovative designs and thinking that
come from a planning standpoint.
City managers and politicians on the other hand - 80 per cent to 90 per cent of what they
contend with is basically getting what needs to be done, on any given day. Its the planners
that have to provide that kind of vision for the future.
Beth Sanders: What do you see city planners doing differently Brian? How can they work
differently to get different results so that we can design for ecosphere intelligence?
Brian Eddy: Well first of all they might start looking at local resourcing. Take the
ecological footprint for example. Try to minimize the ecological footprint being used for
the supply of materials and services within the city. Are we importing from around the
other side of the planet when an industry could be developed within their region that
could be sustainable to supply of the city with its resources? I work with the government
of Canada at Natural Resources Canada for example. Within the forestry sector [they
are]undergoing a fundamental change in [this kind of] transformation right now. There
are new forest products coming out that are actually replacing steel as the main structural
element in the new building, including high-rises. So these are things that they had - now
all of these innovations that are taking place - they have to be tapping into these. And see
where I'm going to bring those design elements into it?
The other major factor though, is they have to take the cultural element into account. One
of the basic tenets of the integral framework is that [with] the physical systems that we
design and develop, there is a corresponding cultural dimension to those. If there is
incongruence between the type of physical system that you develop with the culture that
it's intended for, than it is going to cause problems within that environment. That's why
taking templates from other areas and trying to apply them to the local area may not be
the best approach.
You really have to be take into consideration the local context, the history, the culture of
the people, the landscape, and the physiographic. And as best is possible [to estimate] the
natural resources within that region itself in order to see how to better optimize the use of
the material flows in the interest of human well-being not necessarily just economic
development.
Beth Sanders: Thanks Brian. In my work, Eric revealed my life as a professional city
planner. One of the observations I would make, is we do an awful lot to bring new ideas
forth. Politicians are the ones that ultimately make the decision and of course those
politicians make those decisions in response to the climate, politically speaking. I have a
question for Michael around the left-hand quadrants were talking about - how can
citizens of civil society show up and influence the decisions that we make collectively?
What is the role of citizens and civil society as were designing and building for ecosphere
intelligence?
Michael Zimmerman: People need to be consulted. Its interesting to think about the role
of the expert, and the drawbacks of expertise. There was a supposition in the 60s and 70s
into the 80s, that technical experts really knew how to handle problems on the ground
rather than local people. But this has proved in many cases not to be true. Experts bring
knowledge to the scene that typically local people don't have because the expert
knowledge is theorized and it is published in journals and has a certain kind of the reliable
status. But local knowledge is irreplaceable. I read a study a number of years ago, in fact,
which showed that in many cases when experts were required to testify at stakeholder
hearings, where the project was being assessed as widely as possible - in many cases the
experts thought the exercise was a waste of time, since that they really were the university
educated people who knew how to do things.
But in many cases [including] the social sciences study of this and wasn't just anecdotal -
the experts discovered that what they found from local people really influenced, for the
better, their projects. Yes, it took more time to carry out the project, because local people
presented the obstacles and opportunities the experts often overlooked. Not out of bad
faith - its just that they couldnt notice them at the granular level what the people at the
local scale could see.
So finding ways to include the first person and cultural viewpoint of local people in cities
and people living in cities who are going to be affected by various kinds of urban planning
proposals is absolutely crucial. Without it, a lot of big mistakes are going to be made.
Many people listening to this call will not remember the urban renewal that took place in
this country in the 1950s and 1960s. These renewal projects in many places were urban
catastrophes from which cities are only finally beginning to recover in some cases.
Building freeways right in the middle of cities, cutting off whole portions of cities from
other parts of town in order to facilitate the flow of traffic into the suburbs. Now people
who are affected in the core program - the areas by such and such plans and projects -
were never seriously consulted because they [were considered to have] had no point.
They had no perspective. Today you cant get away with this, especially in the first world.
One of the things that would have to be emphasized by urban planners, who are working
and developing nations with their burgeoning cities, is the importance of transparency
and stakeholder meetings. Planners need to take into account the experience, values,
norms and expectations of people who are actually living in cities - the people that will be
affected by planning. I think that is so important it can't be over estimated.
Beth Sanders: Thanks Michael I am going to put a question out for both of you - Michael
and Brian - around the bottom right-hand quadrant [of the integral model], which are the
folks that basically go out and build the city. So if you are at City Hall, youre a city planner,
or youre a politician you can get fed up with the regulations of how it takes place. But of
course we can only regulate so much. Then there are all of us [in many situations] -
everything from when I'm rebuilding my home in my garage right now, right up to the
developer that's building a whole new neighborhood. What is the role of the city builders
and developers in this picture of ecosphere intelligence?
Brian Eddy: One comment I would make even following Michael, just to pick up from
where I let off - is that is one of the main challenges that planners have. Whatever design
approach they take, they have to realize that in order to get buy-in, it is really important to
consult with the citizens of the city. That way make them feel part of the process, but you
also invite them to use the ecological design approach even though they might not be
calling it that. I'm not suggesting you might not use those words, but to incorporate the
approach in the design. But also think outside of the box.
Even where I live right now we've got a big empty space next door. The City was going to
use it as an easement. They are no longer going to do that. Why not let us turn it into a
park so that the kids can have a place to play? In order to do that within the city I live in,
you have to go through so many different regulations. It violates this code or that code. I
think they need to go down to the regulation level and rethink about some of the
principles that are blocking the ability for residents themselves from being more
innovative. Instead, [invite them into participate]in the design approach.
Beth Sanders: Michael, what are your thoughts on that?
Michael Zimmerman: Well the challenges we are faced with here are enormous.
Everyone has to contribute to some extent; urban planners are really under the gun. I am
assuming that urban planning does take place in these gigantic new cities of the
developing world. Presumably, some of these planners come to international meetings
where they hear about what's going on elsewhere. I am making this assumption. I dont go
to these meetings. But I'm assuming it takes place. The difficulty of course is in
implementation. Just think about the obstacles to making a significant change that would
have an effect.
For example, on the problem in terms of economic political domains which are highly
contested, one of the challenges in the first world is getting things done when faced with
political opposition. And in many, many developing world countries and cities there is a
problem with graft and corruption with the lack of transparency, with government
interference and so on and so forth. So a lot of great ideas really, really wont get taken
very far just because of the conditions that are at work in other places and as well as in
our own society.
Everyone who lives in the city understands the politics involved in getting something done
and how difficult it is. It is not just a problem elsewhere. But I think that is something
really that we have to take into account. And then part of our mission has to be how to
transform the political context in which decisions get taken that are going to affect a lot of
people. Including potentially very beneficial solutions that often are offered that in some
cases are taken down simply because they create so much opposition from vested
interests who really don't want to see these things happen.
So everything is so complicated and yet somehow these massive cities in the first and
developing [world] - somehow they are functioning. I think this is in part a result of the
power of hive mind. In other words, human beings, when they get in big groups,
spontaneously develop ways which organize themselves. What integral or city urban
planning approach wants to do is to shed more light on the process by which ideas are
generated and how they're implemented, and to find what [ways] to assist in the
generation of ideas that have the greatest possible positive impact. Now I don't know
exactly how to do that. Perhaps the conversation we are having right now with many
people listening in and who are interested in this topic is one of the steps that is needed to
make this happen. I hope this kind of conversation can have a lot of ripples and have an
effect elsewhere in generating the possibility of urban transformation.
Brian Eddy: I thought of a good example we may want to use. Before I moved to
Cornerbrook, Newfoundland I used to live in the City of Ottawa for about 19 years. Just
before I moved three of four years ago, going back four or five years ago one of the main
issues going on in that city at that time was the design of the light rail transit system.
Ottawa is one of the major cities in Canada that still doesn't have a subway system or light
rail transit system, so now it's become one of the biggest issues. The preceding mayor had
a design for the north-south segment of the transit system. At the time, there was a lot of
debate and dissatisfaction. The succeeding mayor, when he came in, put together a
committee of independent people - there were architects, planners, community activists,
and people from across the board - to look at the design of a light rail system that was not
only going to address the current needs but also have more of a future vision of how the
system will evolve over time. What they came up with was something that looked into not
just within the City of Ottawa, but it looked at transportation flow within the region as a
whole.
They looked into the big picture, growth in neighboring communities, and perhaps the
reduced ecological footprint of people driving in cars and instead maybe using light rail as
an alternative. They were looking for how they could connect those communities with a
major city. They were looking forward 20, 30 and 50 years into the future. In providing
context and vision they can then go back to the proposals and plans that they were
considering at the time for the downtown core and the more immediate needs of the
north-south link.
Those designs were being reconsidered in the context of this broader future-looking
approach. It wasn't without controversy; there were a lot of people who protested the cost
of it, the delays in implementation and so forth. But, for me, I thought that what they were
doing was laying down a good ecological approach to this problem which was more
sustainable long-term.
If you look at a lot of the issues that people deal with today, planners and city managers
have to deal with designs from 100 years ago. And we are from a generation that is very
critical of what the thinking was back then. The onus is on us today to think ahead into the
future as well.
Beth Sanders: Thank you Michael and Brian. Its time to take some questions from our
audience. Thank you for articulating the delicate balance in here too, about the rules that
come into play and how the rules come to pass. Whether it is the city planners and the
politicians putting rules in place and how we consult with citizens.
Beth Sanders: Michael, what is the value of transforming the political scene at the city
level?
Michael Zimmerman: Since we are dealing with cities and politics is still a key way that
things are organized at an urban level, then if politics are corrupt, inefficient and so on a
then lot of good things that could happen wont happen and a lot of bad things will happen
instead.
Therefore, I think this is a very important dimension of this. And to some extent I think
this is partly a function of developing a level of consciousness on the part of urban
dwellers. If people are of a certain level of development they are more or less resigned to
having wealthy powerful elites run everything and basically let them walk all over them.
But, if you look back at the American and French revolutions, they were about the middle
class getting tired of being taxed and pushed around by the powerful and the elites. Finally,
they had revolution which led them to adopt representative democracy which has its
problems, but is better than what they had in place back then. I suppose every city is
different. You could look at a massive city in Brazil, Africa or China and each will be
different. But some will be run better because the politics are better and more open,
transparent with their decision making. This is not my area of expertise. I am putting this
out there to think about.
Beth Sanders: Brian what do you see as the political context in cities? What does it mean
to transform into and how can we make that happen?
Brian Eddy: One thing that we have all had a chance to observe over the past 10 years is
the impact of technology on citizen engagement. People are much more engaged these
days through technology when there is a new park going up or a redesigning of some
section of the city, plans are on the internet. People can vote on the internet, they dont
have to go to a town hall session for example. Planners and politicians know that they
have this new mode of communication to deal with in order to take into account the
decision making as part of the democratic process. From my perspective, that is part of the
ecosphere intelligence that is emerging in the city.
Eric Troth: We have a question from the audience for Michael. Can you say more about
hive mind as emergence intelligence? Would you call this a form of natural design?
Michael Zimmerman: This seems to be how nature works in many ways. What is a hive?
The word comes from bee hives. They have a queen but she doesnt tell the hive what to
do. Same with ant hills, they have a queen I guess, but they dont take any orders. They just
go out of their hives and out of their ant hills and start looking for flowers and things to
eat. We discovered many years ago that if bees do leave the hive and come back with
pollen, they do a dance which the other bees can watch. This dance will tell them where to
fly to get the honey which is an incredible discovery.
I would like to give you an example from Kevin Kellys book about how hive-mind can
operate. There was a major cement company executive in LA who for a time would just
wait for customers to call and then he would send the cement out to where it was needed.
One day he decided to go the hive-mind route. He sent all the trucks out and as calls came
in, they diverted the closest trucks to go and take the cement to where it was needed. This
turned out to be more efficient.
This is not how people would normally think about doing things. So the way in which self-
organization takes place is another interesting hive-mind phenomenon. How does
something like this get started? How does anything get started? Part of the hive-mind
theory is that higher levels of organizations and order can arrive from processes that
appear to be chaotic.
If you look at the Game of Life, the computer game that arose 20 years ago when computer
programmers put a few simple rules in play inside a computer program and watched what
would happen. After a number of iterations incredible and unanticipated order and
complexities started showing up in the program that were amazing. And so, the way in
which cities are organized has a sort of unanticipated spontaneous self-organization that
looks like chaos to the untutored mind, but to those who know where to look theyll see
that really there is organization arising there.
Eric Troth: Brian, with your map of eco-emergence, do you think it could help us unravel
the issues of sustainability problems that the cities face [referring to] that map you are
describing in your PDF and PowerPoint?
Brian Eddy: Well I think that the intention behind that map is to illustrate some of the
common principles or more fundamental principles. When we look at cities or human
civilization on any scale, we have to appreciate that there are these support levels that
have to be included within [them]. That [comes from] a shift in mindset. Its a different
mental model than what we've been working with for the last 200 or 300 years.
Picking up again on the hive idea, one of the things we are doing is integrating
socioeconomic dimensions and human dimensions in regional ecosystems planning. Were
looking at not just major cities but any places of human dwelling under the metaphor of
the human habitat. We're even changing how we map them as opposed to treating cities as
points on the on a map. They have very irregular shapes, they have different histories.
They fit into the regional ecology very differently. We are working to get beyond that
notion that there is an urban and rural dichotomy and beyond the humans and nature
dichotomy by looking at cities as more highly concentrated human habitats on the planet.
From this perspective, we start taking some approaches where other major urban areas
need more rural and more nature in them; and a lot of rural areas or outlying areas need a
lot more urban. So we have seen shifts recently [we have] witnessed ruralizing urban
areas and urbanizing rural areas. Its this kind of natural shift that we starting to see
happen and we have to continue with it.
Freed from Amsterdam: In regards to our Human Habitat and urban areas, how far
would you go? Could a whole country be urban area? I know of a fascinating project where
the whole country was redesigned that is Palestine. The project is called The Arc. It is the
most inspiring project. Instead of one city only it takes the whole country and completely
redesigns it in a sustainable way. Urban Architects from Santa Monica in California did
that.
Brian Eddy: Its a question of scale. It always depends on the size of the country. If it is a
small country that is predominantly urban or human settled, as a country it still has to
take into consideration what its regional environment is like. Palestine is a very
contentious political [area] with very deep history. I know some other researchers who
work in that area, and they traced the roots of a lot of conflict to not mainly religion,
although that is a major factor, but to water resources in the region. Its related to how
powers have worked their way over time to favor some areas as opposed others. Bringing
it up to another scale, you have to think in terms of holonic principles. A city is part of a
region that is part of a planet. Then going downward there are internal parts of the city
and so forth. But you have to look at things on a multi-scalar basis as well. Its quite a
unique situation in Palestine as opposed to Canada where our cities are very widely
dispersed across 4,500 km. In Canada we have very different circumstances.
Eric Troth: We are moving on to the questions for the breakout groups. [Break]
Eric Troth: Now that we have discussed these questions in small groups, I would like to
take this time to ask the presenters and interviewer what was being discussed in the
breakout sessions. Beth lets start with you.
Beth Sanders: I was listening to a wonderful conversation between two folks one from
the west coast of Canada and one from the northeast of the United States. I was struck by
notion of the stages of life in citizens and generations of perspective that we have resident
right in a city and how we [need to take those stages of life into consideration]. There's a
huge range of perspectives on cities and city life and ecosphere intelligence and all the
other intelligences. Our view of those generations and the intelligence that they offer is
really critical and necessary for a city to be able to sustain itself. Accessing all of that
intelligence is the new part or can be a new part to the cultural narrative that we've been
talking about.
Eric Troth: Michael lets go to you. Michael, whats coming up in the discussions you have
been part of?
Michael Zimmerman: One gentleman brought up that cities really have no boundary.
Whatever boundary cities have are really artificial since cities live off products,
particularly agricultural products, from other places. They get products of all kinds from
around the world. Globalization for good or ill is with us. Cities are in constant interchange
with their environment at different levels. All of that has to be taken into account in
calculating the ecological footprint of cities and the region in which they find themselves,
bioregions and all that.
One of the things that Stewart Brand pointed out in his book is the ecological benefit of
people crowding into cities. As people leave their little rural farms which really are a
source of a lot of environmental damage because people had to do things to make a living,
the land is left. Once the land is left it is naturally restored to its conditions. That is how
the northeast forest was restored. Photographs of New England in the American north
east from the 1870s and 80;s illustrate that it was a terrible landscape. It was completely
deforested because people were trying to make a living on land that was really not
suitable for any serious agriculture. So they left for the cities and the agriculture industry
moved west and the land was restored to active forest. So that is happening in other parts
of the world now and will continue to happen.
How are people going to get fed? The National Resource Defense Council magazine One
Earth had a story this past issue about the agricultural innovation for and in cities. I think
one of things that's going to have to happen, I agree with Brand on this, is the development
and acceptance of genetically modified organisms that are going to be able to do well in
the saline soil and drought conditions and so on, especially as climate change alters the
tradition agricultural patterns. We are going to see tremendous innovation and
technological innovation in agriculture. I think it's going to be necessary to feed the
billions of people crowding into cities. Im not despairing - I wish I had another 50 years to
figure out how to do this. I think the hive-mind is going to come up with a lot of really cool
solutions to problems.
Eric Troth: Thank you Michael, Brian do you have any reflections from what you were
hearing?
Brian Eddy: Yes, there was some discussion around the role of celebrities and ecosphere
intelligence, some discussions around the noosphere. What that is and what that meant.
But that brings to mind another understanding that we need to keep in mind that most of
the urban areas, particularly in the west and Europe, in their design - the way that they
emerged over the last two or three hundred years was really a product of the industrial
era and the need to concentrate nodes of economic production in a centralized location. So
there was a centralization move or shift that occurred. This shift continues to occur as
rural areas and agricultural natural resources becomes more mechanized.
However, the manufacturing mode of production that underlies the development of major
urban areas over the last few hundred years is one phase of development. We are now
into tertiary levels [where] sectors of development like tourism, recreation and things that
are really meaningful from a human being standpoint, are starting to emerge as well as
information technology.
The mode of economic production is shifting dramatically and it does not need to be
centralized in the downtown core of a major urban area anymore. This is something we
might want to start taking into consideration when we look at, for example, a national
level where we think about where we start directing immigrants in Canada. Do you send
them to downtown Toronto? Or encourage them to take up residence in other parts of the
country that are more sparsely populated? That can help release pressure on some of the
overpopulation of some of the urban areas and help with the regional development of
some of the smaller centers.
I think we will start seeing a decentralizing trend by nature if anything. The dispersion of
another 6 billion people over the next 10 or 20 years - we have to start thinking about
where we are locating ourselves and how sustainable that is if we are increasingly
concentrating people in the large urban areas around the world.
Eric Troth: Thank you Brian, I would like to pull in Beth as the harvester of this material
and ask her for a quick summary of what she heard here.
Beth Sanders: I am struck with the notion of hive-mind because there are patterns in
what seems to be chaos. One of our jobs over the month of September with this expo is to
take this really neat opportunity to discern patterns in our hive-mind as the group of
people that is gathering but then also looking outward in our cities and our planet of cities
to see that. That is one of the seeds that I can sense is growing within me.
Im also curious about some questions that Brian has left me with and that is his comment
that the mode of economic production decentralizing and what impact does that have on
the physical form that cities take? Im also curious about the role of technology and
analytics and how that as a level of intelligence is just hovering over the physical
infrastructure that we have in our Cities in terms of how we have made them up until now.
There is another layer that we are having access to now that will certainly adjust how we
make our decisions and the decisions we actually make. Thank you very much Brian and
Michael for their time today. I certainly learned a lot.

Earth-Cosmos
Boundary
Human-Environment
Boundary
Civilization
Anthroposphere
Biosphere
Atmosphere
Hydrosphere
Lithosphere
Solar System
Universe
Depth Depth
Span
(TIME)
Years BP
~ 10E+03
~ 10E+04
~ 10E+05
~ 10E+06
~ 10E+07
~ 10E+08
~ 10E+09
? ~10E+20 ~10E+10 ~10E+5 ~10E+03 ~10E+02 -meters- ~10E-01 ~10E-02 ~10E-05 ~10E-10 ~10E-20 ?
(Big Bang!)
Energy
/ Entropy
Early Societies
Tribes/Clans
Heterotrophic
Ecosystems
Climatic Systems
Oceans, Lakes, Rivers
Rocks, Minerals,
Planetary Systems
Stars, Galaxies
Quasars, Pulsars
Complex Neocortex
Neocortex-Limbic Systems
Organic Compounds/Cells
Inorganic
Compounds
Atoms-Molecules-Gases
Sub-Atomic Particles
Energy/Source
(LR-UR External/Physical Perspective)
Figure 1
Copyright Brian G. Eddy, 2001 humbrian@gmail.com

HolisticSelf
Integral Self
Sensitive Self
Achiever Self
Mythic Self
Ego-centricSelf
Magic Self
Instinctual Self
I
Self and
Consciousness
Holistic
Integral Commons
Value Communities
Corporate States
Nation States
Feudal Empires
Ethnic Tribes
Survival Clans
Its
Social / Governing
System
Figure 2.
Animistic-
We
Culture and
Worldview
Holonic
Integral
Pluralistic
Scientific-
Rational
Mythic Order
Power Gods
Magical
Archaic
Years BP
emerging)
~100
~1,000
~10,000
~100,000
Depth Depth
Span
Turquoise
Yellow
Green
Orange
Blue
Red
Purple
Beige
Value Memes
vMemes
Copyright Brian G. Eddy, 2001 humbrian@gmail.com

1
Ecology
What and where are we implementing Ecosphere intelligence?
Dr. Karen O-Brien & Dr. Ina Horlings
Interviewer: Dr. Marilyn Hamilton, PhD
September 4, 2012

Dr. Lummina Horlings (Ina) is Assistant Professor, Wageningen University,
Rural Sociology Group. She is a researcher and lecturer in place-based
development, focusing on how people take responsibility for their
environment, encompassing aspects such as cooperation/coalitions,
leadership, inner motivations and sense of place. Ina studied land and water
management, human geography and holds a doctorate in policy sciences. She
has worked in policy and science and has specialized in rural regional place-based
development. She has published on issues such as sustainable development, passion,
regional development, cooperation and coalition building (farmers groups and public-
private cooperation), leadership (for example in Eindhoven Brainport) and place branding.
She is interested in the integral framework, Spiral Dynamics, appreciative inquiry and this
question: How can a value-oriented approach be applied in territorial development?

Dr. Karen OBrien is a professor in the Department of Sociology and Human
Geography at the University of Oslo, where her research emphasizes the need to
frame environmental issues as social, developmental and ethical issues that
have implications for human security and well-being. She explores ways that
environmental changes interact with global processes; how values, beliefs and
worldviews influence the capacity to respond to change; and how integral
theory and integral approaches to sustainability can contribute to a better understanding
of both the problems and solutions associated with climate change. Karen is Chair of the
Global Environmental Change and Human Security project, and leads a social-science
based project that examines climate change adaptation as a social process in Norway.
Karens publications include Environmental Change and Globalization: Double
Exposures, co-authored with Robin Leichenko; and Coping with Climate Variability: User
Responses to Seasonal Forecasts in Southern Africa.

Marilyn Hamilton: Its my pleasure to introduce this session first by framing it within the
theme for this first week of the conference. If we want to create a new future for the city,
then I think we need a new operating system, so this weeks focus is on The Planet of
Cities. I think of that in such an operating system Mother Earth is our mother board.
Todays theme is on the intelligence of the ecosphere and I define the ecosphere
intelligence as an awareness of the capacity to respond to the realities of a citys climate and
eco-region environment. In this session, Im delighted to be able to interview two leading
practitioners who are turning this intelligence into actionable outcomes. So now its my
pleasure to introduce both Dr. Lummina Horlings (Ina) and Dr. Karen OBrien.
The first question that I would like to start with is: Can you tell me your perspective of
what the relationship of the city is to its eco-region? Ill start with asking you, Ina. Can
you give us a start on that?
Ina Horlings: Good evening Marilyn. I really feel honored to be at this inspiring
conference. About your question, if we talk about ecosphere intelligence, I think you see
an increasing awareness and capacity in eco-regions to respond to the realities of the
environment. I think the eco-region is not just for feeding and resources for a city.
Citizens are not bees merely collecting honey from a large pot of the eco-region, but
working together with people in rural areas. I think there are three important
developments emerging in the eco-regions.
I would say that the first relation is the de-blurring of boundaries between cities and
rural hinterlands and the emergence of new urban-rural organizations. I see in my
work, especially in the Netherlands, citizens who take up responsibility for their
own environment and also take responsibility of their own food production and
energy production. For example, they take initiatives in urban agriculture,
gardening, consumer groups, renewable energy production, and also they take
responsibility for animal welfare. Recently, for example, 80,000 people in the
Netherlands protested against new large industrial farms for intensive animal
husbandry. So we see new urban relations that are creating more reciprocity
between cities and rural hinterlands. I think that all over Europe you see new eco-
strategies of groups of farmers, and groups of consumers who are taking
responsibility for food strategy or the quality of the landscape. These are the first
trends.

And this brings me to the second trend, which is also really important. I see an
increasing self-organization in society and eco-regions. You could say that this is an
expression of a do-it-yourself democracy in all new levels of awareness and
consciousness. So, in terms of value systems, you see new healthy expressions of
postmodern and pluralistic worldviews. Recently in the Netherlands are emerging
new energy cooperatives with citizens producing energy together with farmers as a
form of self-organization. So, I think that these are really interesting and promising
developments.

The last trend I would like to identify is the increasing interest for, what I call, more
place based developments. This would be what Marilyn calls the ecosphere
intelligence. So more response to the eco-region environments. How can we use the
qualities, the identities, and the storylines of an area as a motive for change? I think
this is a really important development which we also see emerging in European
policy. It refers to all kinds of processes like the re-appreciation of eco-regions and
places, the re-grounding of practices in specific efforts and resources to where
theyre more sustainable, and also repositioning towards markets, considering
alternative and diverse economies. So, I think [Im seing] all kinds of new
interesting emergent developments, especially what I see in my research and
practices in Europe.

Karen OBrien: I think I see all of that happening. And we also have to put it into this
context of the eco-region as the globe, because from the position of global environmental
change suddenly there are no boundaries, suddenly everything is connected. Cities are
really the hubs and nodes where environmental change and issues like climate change, are
both created and experienced. To me this is really exciting because Earth System Science
is fairly new in human thinking. What were getting when we start to connect all the dots
between bio-geo-chemical cycles, biodiversity loss, land use change, urban heat and
climate, all these things we see that although we have very much place-based
developments, we also have enormous ecological footprints, carbon footprints, flows of
people, flows of goods and things that are really having a global impact and not an even
impact, its not that every place is equally affected. So, in cities they are considered the
crucible of risk because of biophysical vulnerability and social vulnerability, Im mostly
interested in how climate change will affect human security. With more than half the
worlds population living in urban areas, this is an enormous question because we have
not only sea level rise, floods, and heat waves; there is a confluence of different issues. On
the one hand you have the impacts and the other hand you have so many possibilities, as
youve talked about - of these being where changes will emerge, where new ideas for new
relationships with rural areas will come out.
So for me, the city has to be seen in a global context, and it really has to be seen in the
context of both impacts of change and vulnerabilities to change. But also resilience, in the
idea that people can actually create alternatives and this will be where new ideas come out,
new forms of institutions and new ways of interacting. And thats why I like Marilyns idea
of the Hive because these are the happening places where the connections are being made,
and the kind of key nodes. But at the same time we have to really be aware that in the
next few years, were going to see more and more megacities especially in coastal areas
and in Africa and Asia. How these cities handle change is going to be interesting and we
might actually have to focus much more on adaptation and transformation of changes at a
real global scale in order to suitably adapt cities to the global eco-region.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you Karen. I really feel you both have contextualized the scale
of cities in a very useful way in order for us to think about both the challenges and threats
that we face from ecosphere realities. The hard truths that Bill Rees often referred to in
his presentation and at the same time youre pointing to possibilities of innovation.
Well, I wonder if I could ask you to talk about - now that you've framed what you see
happening around you in the Netherlands and in Europe - how are you actually putting
this into your practice? What do you do with this information around ecosphere and how
do you work with the people that you work with?
Ina Horlings: What I personally do is try to connect ideas, and individuals and inspiration.
I work with people in areas, in regions, and try to enhance awareness. Try to create a
joint storyline about the area for example: Im now working in an area close to my home,
where the landscape is very beautiful and which is also close to a big city and in this area,
its a very small area, 32 organizations are working on nature and landscapes. Thats a
huge group of organizations. And what we actually now are doing is trying to create a
landscape community and to cooperate and try to develop a joint storyline, of what the
reason wants to be in the future so what is the next step in the development? And if you
talk about storylines I think that this refers to, what you Marilyn call, the cultural quadrant,
dealing with different values, the diversity of people, trying to find what are the cultural
markers in an area, what is unique, how can you use the play space identities and values of
people [even as]most of whom change? This is always a shared effort, and if you talk
about leadership in the sense its also about shared leadership. Not ego driven, but
working for the common cause I would say.
Marilyn Hamilton: So Ina, can you just tell me a little bit more, if youre able to even
identify the city, and tell me a little bit more about the storyline. How do you get people to
tell those stories?
Ina Horlings: I can give you several examples, but maybe I can say something about the
astonishing story of the City of Angels which had been declared last year as the Smartest
Region in the World by US Forum. This area, it was an industrial area, but from the 90s
on, this area didnt do quite well. There was a crisis, car companies broke down, there was
a financial crisis and Philips didnt do quite well. So, in this area, some Change Leaders
stood up and said, We have to cooperate as businesses, as science and as a government.
They saw what was happening in the area and organized, and allied all people around the
storyline of Brainport, Eindhoven which was, you could say, a name, to label the
innovation and the diversity in the area. And how do you do this? I think its important
first to answer this question: What is unique in this area? What are you proud of? What
are the strong points?
And then communicate with all the parties, with the businesses, the governments, the
NGOs and see: what is the common ground? And how can you find an agenda which
connects all these different views and different interests?
So thats what they did in Eindhoven. They tried to align; you could say in a kind of triple
helix situation, science, in this case the University of Eindhoven, the local government and
the big private sectors with all kinds of international firms. What is also interesting is, you
know these international firms became more responsible for their own area. For example
businesses are working worldwide but they still feel responsible for their own
[home]region. That was a big shift I think.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats a really wonderful story that seems to relate the global being
grounded into the local in the Eindhoven Brainport thats a really inspiring story, so
thank you. So Im curious now Karen, when people think about working on climate
change and human security they tend to get the lizard look because they think its just
too overwhelming, so what kinds of approaches do you use and what are practices that
engage people to really become part of the solution?
Karen OBrien: Well I work a lot with the adaptation to climate change which is really
looking at how we respond to changes that are going to happen regardless of what we do
with mitigation; on the reduction of greenhouse gases. Because climate changed the
process and what weve put into the atmosphere already is going to be having an effect in
the forthcoming future and although mitigation is probably the biggest adaptation in
terms of limiting changes in the future we do need to adapt.
So, I look at how communities and cities are adapting to climate change and we see that a
lot of the work is going on is very, kind of, technical oriented. What are the impacts and
how do we address them? How do we deal with more water, less water, higher
temperatures, increasing sea level or storm surges? And so, people are looking to manage
the changes and use their expertise and really deal as if these are technical problems.
My approach is to point out that climate change represents an adaptive challenge. It
means that we really have to look at our values, worldviews, beliefs, our habits, our
assumptions and really what I call adapting from the inside out.
From an integral perspective this is taking in those left-hand quadrants and exactly
looking at the cultural stories. As Ina points out, theyre so important because you get that
lizard look and people say, Oh my God, climate change, we cant think about it. But if you
start to recognize that climate change really is about the fact that human beings really are
influencing their eco-region you know the global eco-system then you say, Wow, we
really can change the change.
Then you start to frame it in that idea of what kind of a revision do we want rather than
saying , Oh my Gosh, we just have to respond and adapt to climate change in a reactive
way. Instead, we can say, Wow, we really are the ones in charge. To me thats really
good news because if we were dealing with climate change that humans had no influence
over, such as sunspots as the explanation for the magnitude of climate change that is
expected, it would be quite depressing. But the fact that it is humans and we are
absolutely capable of changing the system and the structures that are responsible for this,
I think that is the exciting thing to get across in the climate change work.
The idea that we need this more holistic approach to climate change and recognize not
just adaptation to particular climate impacts, but adaptation to the idea that humans are
part of the environment - this non-dual perspective that we really are a part of the system
and were creating that and come up with new and innovative types of solutions. Not just
solutions in the old sense, but really redesigning the way that we live and relate to the
environment.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you for giving us that frame. I would say that relates a lot to
my radical optimism that its possible to do things. Im just curious because youre so
connected with your projects in Norway, but you also mentioned the challenges to African
and Asian cities. How do you think in those two or three very different life conditions -
how do cities in those places develop that resilience youre looking for thats based in our
capacity to be consc?ious, to be thinking and aware that they actually are changing the
change as you put it. How would you describe your different approaches to those
different cultures?
Karen OBrien: Well actually, its ironic because [on a visit from] Norway, I was just
recently in Helsinki at a conference on Nordic adaptation, and a lot of cities and countries
really dont think that climate change is such a problem. They think we have the capacity
to adapt and were doing well. They believe we have the technology, resources, education,
etc. so theyre going on with the technical challenge. In many developing countries, people
are dealing with climate variability all the time and you have a much more powerful
movement, at community based adaptation. People are really responding from the
ground up. In many ways, you can argue that they are absolutely developing more
resilient and more creative ways for dealing with climate change.
Yet, I think that what is missing in any context is an understanding of the scale of the
problem. People have a very linear understanding when you say 1 degree, 2 degrees, 3
degrees, 4 degrees and they dont recognize that theres really nonlinear implications from
even small changes like that. So even in the Nordic countries, we think that we can be well
adapted to whatever changes. But the truth is, from a scientific perspective, we really
dont have any science of adaptation to a 4 degree change. Its unprecedented in human
history. And to get to the changes that are expected at the end of the century you would
have to go back 35 million years before humans were around so the challenges are
actually quite mind-boggling to actually grasp.
I tend to have a more realistic optimism that yes we can do things, but wow, we better
actually do them very quickly. I think the division and scale of problems in mega-cities of
greater than 20 million people is actually enormous where you have slums and people
building on very risky environments (on slopes and things). Addressing vulnerability and
the implications for human security is probably the best starting point and disaster risk
reduction and management is at the forefront.
We need to do it not as business as usual or like weve always done it, but in a more
transformative way that takes into account that not only do we respond to the hazards,
but also takes into account that we are changing the hazards. You know all of our
equations and solutions from the past might not actually be suitable for the future. So its
really going to take a lot of questioning of our assumptions as the starting point for dealing
with our future.
Ina Horlings: Karen, what you say about climate, I think youre really right. It also
connects to the food crisis and the water crisis because they are all interconnected. Now,
we have more than half of the people living in cities. Also, the food crisis becomes more
urgent. How do feed the 9 billion people in 2050? Also, on this issue, I think you see many
technological responses trying to intensify the agriculture and increase production in a
technological way, but I think for a lot of cities connected to the rural hinterlands, for
example in Africa, more ecological approaches would actually be more suitable and more
embedded in the social and cultural structure in the area. So, I think we should really look
at the interconnections in these different crises the climate, food, and water crises. Dont
you think so?
Karen OBrien: I agree. They all are one large crisis and underlying it is our relationship
with the environment and how we see ourselves in the world and how we see others.
I think that agro ecological approaches are really important, but also urban gardens and
we have lots of different ways of reconnecting the biosphere in urban areas. The minute
we start to frame them as separate issues and deal with them separately, we start to miss
the larger picture. In some cases, we might actually be increasing vulnerability like if
were dealing with the water crisis by digging deeper for wells in some areas we might be
actually be increasing vulnerability for rural populations.
We see that all over the world. In the Western United States, the Colorado River Basin,
that is satisfying the water requirements of urban areas is affecting people down river
especially in Mexico. So until we actually start to link all these issues, including energy, in
a more systemic framework and look at what the different feedbacks are with the
different solutions and how they can all be aligned, then our solutions could end up
creating bigger problems in the future.
Marilyn Hamilton: When thinking about the scale of what youre talking about, Ina, you
described how youre doing quite intensive work in several different regions in the
Netherlands. Can you talk a little bit about how something like the Eindhoven Brainport
where there are pretty large corporations like Philips have helped feed that project. How
are they bringing their own awareness of the globe to local conditions that are creating
innovation there?
Ina Horlings: Yeah, of course they can do more, but I discussed it with the CEO of Philips
in the Netherlands, Belgium in Luxembourg, and he said, What we are trying to do is
create more sustainability in our designs to produce more products that use less energy.
For example, they produced a lab which needs less energy. What you also see is the
concept of open innovation.
Because they know that theres a need for speed in these times and they cant develop
innovations on their own, they are cooperating more with other organizations to develop
innovations together.
Theres an increase in awareness on the regional scale where you need a landscape quality
and a social quality so you can provide your employees a good quality of life. So what I see
is a tendency to more intercreative practices and to more intercreative policies. Of course
that can be done much more I think. But I also talked to the Technical University of
Eindhoven and they are now cooperating with Philips to develop new infrastructure
systems which use less energy and space, and I think that we will be able to see much
more of these innovations in the future.
Marilyn Hamilton: So it sounds like your role is not only leading these sorts of research
projects, but as a catalyst who is connecting dots across organizations, people and sectors
that might not otherwise have come together. Would you say that was a fair assessment?
Ina Horlings: Yes, I think to align people around a common goal, networking is also really
important and as a starting point for this whole process all the businesses in the area
(small or large, international or local) to seduce them (as it were) in the process of
cooperation. I think this is really important. What you will also see is, by taking
leadership, transformative leadership, shared leadership, or leadership that is no longer
driven by ego but that works for broader sustainability. It wasnt really a success factor in
this element of this area.
Marilyn Hamilton: One of the things Im curious about is; you have a real interest in
innovation - your own way of designing research testifies to that, but how do you see that
the companies that might have been resistant to innovation how do you open them up to
cooperating with one another? How is that driving new approaches, new inventions even?
Have you seen any particular examples?
Ina Horlings: A specific example is design students from a university now cooperate with
large businesses like Philips. What they both saw was that when you look beyond your
own boundaries, across sectors, across themes and scales, then you can really learn from
each other. In the 1990s, businesses like Philips were completely closed. There were
gates around them and they didnt share knowledge. The awareness that knowledge cant
be owned, but has to be shared was a breaking point, a turning point in cooperation. Now,
on the high tech campus, you see dozens of small businesses that benefit from this
cooperation. They are close to innovation and they see that cooperation on innovation
brings all of them forward. The concept of open innovation and shared knowledge was
crucial in a sense.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well that makes sense in the particular life conditions you have there.
I want to circle back to Karen. It seems like in the Netherlands theres a whole ecosystem
of innovation. Karen, you had mentioned the whole nonlinearity of climate change. Can
you point out any particular examples in your work where youve seen innovation arise in
places that surprised you?
Karen OBrien: To follow-up on Inas story about the role of art in climate change and
adaptation. Weve been working with artists in the art of adaptation. I think that this is an
area that is so underdeveloped in terms of potential. In the science community what are
really appealing is facts and figures and data and what appeals to the cognitive part of
their brains. Art really gets right to the heart. Its emotional and gets people involved. I
think that if we want to start seeing more innovation (pause)
Marilyn Hamilton: Id like you to finish your thought because that is a really inspiring,
unexpected approach to mitigation and adaptation around climate change. Who would
think that art is a way to open that up. So tell us a little more.
Karen OBrien: We have to eventually connect the left and right sides of our brain and
come up with new ways of thinking. It goes right to the idea of innovations which is how
do we see things differently. In many ways were just downloading our solutions from the
past and improving them, but to really step outside and say, Wow, what really works here
and what doesnt. gets to the idea of transformation.
What I described earlier is these global environmental changes are leading to large scale
transformations whether we like it or not, but we also have the opportunity to
deliberately create transformations that are ethical, equitable, and sustainable. To do that,
we need to step outside of the past solutions and systems weve created and really come
up with new ideas. I think that art triggers that and its not until we step outside of our
thinking and start to connect with all the senses. What you see is that when artists are
dealing with things such as new ways of dealing with excess water and how to make it
aesthetically pleasing, and water flowing through cities in different ways. In Helsinki they
were talking about using water to create ice skating ponds so that it actually is functional.
So, getting the designers, getting the creative people involved, really helps us come up
with practical and desirable adaptations that fit in with the vision of what is a livable
city?, and what kind of a world do we want to live in?
Marilyn Hamilton: This is a nice segue to bring in our audience. If art is a way of inviting
new ways to recognizing new patterns and trends in the world and also a way to jump and
have a non-linear way of expanding our consciousness and realizing Oh, thats a different
approach that we might never have considered before.
Question from Alf in Ontario: Ina, have you come across the work of transition culture in
the Transition Towns model developed by Rob Hopkins? Would you like to comment on
the bottom-up approach of this model?

Ina Horlings: Yes, I actually talk to students about the example of the Transition Towns
and Ive also met some of the initiators, not Rob Hopkins, but his friends I met during a
conference; we talked about the Transition Towns.
What I really like and recognize with the bottom-up approach is that it starts with the
inner dimension of people - the passion of people, the inner driving motivations and the
will to change.
What you also see here is that leadership is embedded in social capital because if you only
have one or two initiators you dont cause social change but here, were able to align
around a group of people or around an agenda.
What struck me when I met some of the initiators was that they also include spirituality.
Its not explicit always, but spirituality is included in the search for new answers and
theyre very creative in that. Theyre trying to learn from others and other cities and they
keep going with the search for more sustainability. Its also an example of resilience in
how they deal with energy and food. Theyre trying to be more resistant to shocks and
adapt to the current crisis. These Transition Towns are very inspiring, so these concepts
have expanded to a lot of different countries.
Marilyn Hamilton: One thing that Ive noticed with Transition Towns, and Ive actually
done the training in British Columbia and theyre actually quite active here. I was a little
concerned at the beginning because of the way they were approaching their hard truths
was through a scarcity lens. One thing Ive noticed that has happened in the last year or
two is that theyve moved to a much more positive approach and so they are focusing on
the social capital. This opens it up to a much more optimistic and abundance lens.
Ina Horlings: Yes
Audience Question: Im one of those people who is on an integral journey and releasing
old ways of living and thinking. What is the new lifestyle that is sustainable for an eco-
region? What advice do you have for someone who can start over? How should they live?
Karen OBrien: Thats a great question; because it often strikes me that those of us that
are working on climate change often have the largest carbon footprints. How do we come
up with a sustainable lifestyle? Calls like this are a great start.
In many ways, we do this just trying to recognize that were creating these new lifestyles
as we go along and things are emerging as we talked about with the Transition Towns, and
in some ways everything has to make sense not just for one reason (because of the
environment or whatever) but because of what we want.
So, reimagining our relationships with others and positions within our communities and
wider worlds is essential. The question puts it well, it is a journey that were all on and its
a collective thing.
A lot of the criticism for dealing with climate change comes with making it the
responsibility of individuals such as Consume less when it actually is systems, structures,
and social practices that are actually forming the way that we behave. So that dance and
interplay between the individual and collective is really important. I always stress to my
students that the only person you can really change is yourself, but the more you work on
yourself, the better you can work with others. It really is the collective connective actions
that are going to make a difference. The integral journey is an essential starting point
towards these larger scale changes that we need to make rather rapidly.
Ina Horlings: If I may add, if you want to practice what you preach and be more reflexive
and aware of the connections, we always discuss what you can do in regards to food. We
all eat every day and that is a good starting point. Are you conscious about what you eat
and where it comes from? It is sustainable and what sort of aspects does it include? Does
it include food quality? Ask about animal welfare, did it come from your own region, what
is the carbon foot print? So I think food is a good starting point.
Marilyn Hamilton: Ina, you have your own kitchen/garden so you can identify with this.
Ina Horlings: I was living in the city for 25 years and I thought I should practice what I
preach so now I have a garden to grow my food organically, and I also have solar panels.
Im still not there, of course, but its a start.
Marilyn Hamilton: To Karen and Ina, I really feel this sort of generative tension in the
idea that you brought up, Karen, around the art. I just see so much possibility in that.
And also, once you brought food up, Ina, in that taking responsibility for self so that you
can take responsibility for others, I seemed very connected to your approach.
Karen OBrien: Im just thinking about the issue of scales and how we normally divide
and local and region think globally act locally instead of think locally act globally. And, I
think that fusion of how our operations at different scales have different effects across
[the globe] is really interesting and it really does change the significance of everything you
do.
Marilyn Hamilton: Maybe when were listening into the breakout groups that we will get
to walk through, we can be thinking across the scales like, how does the global inform the
local and how does the local inform the global? Your point Karen that we are the climate,
we are the local region, we are the city - it is us and it is not out there. We are embedded in
it. Just gaining those capacities to zoom in and out of scales both as a witness of scale
thats also part of what the practical approach that integral thinking allows us to do.
[Pause to visit break out groups]
Karen OBrien: One group talked about art as galvanizing action and embodying
possibility. They mentioned that the narrative is game over, but not in its negative
pessimistic sense, but now its time for a new game. People that are used to video or
computer games are used to saying game over to play at a higher level. And that
involves more skills to play at a higher level. So the idea that younger generations have a
higher skill set left me with the idea that things will grow exponentially when we embody
change. It reminds me that social change, just like environmental change, isnt exactly
linear and we dont know exactly where we are on that curve - but you can see rapid
changes. Maybe thats where the optimism lives. You could be right at the brink of these
breakthroughs.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that thats a great point Karen, I noticed that really strong
sense of radical optimism in this group in fact, a few remarks on how the whole approach
to creativity and to art actually changes the brain and so that when we do something that
creates something new, it actually clicks more neurons in the brain, theres more brain
afterwards. I thought that was a really good example of a non-linearity that would
translate into all sorts of benefits, and when we multiply that into the hives mind, which
would be another way of looking at the social change, then we have the opportunity for
that internal change that you talked about to also grow an exponential brain.
Ina Horlings: I thought it was very interesting for example we talked about the
Transition Towns, they began at the local level in the UK but they are now a worldwide
movement and they use solutions from all over the world to apply at the local level. So you
could say the local is connected with the global intelligence. All of these processes become
more intertwined. If we talk about art and creativity we see the importance of creativity in
regional design; in creative spatial design which creates opportunity to visualize new
futures for the eco regions - sometimes it works better as these [local] designs than
written text or designs or bureaucratic processes. Creativity becomes more and more
important.
Marilyn Hamilton: One person commented that the reason she liked the integral was
because it didnt make the local a victim of the global. That is a reframe. That as a whole
feeling of innovation is also cool.
Somebody asked me what level of art is acceptable? What do we consider acceptable?
Its like every time we introduce something new were just making more connections .
Talking with Brett Thomas who has been a partner in creating this whole conference, in
order to improve the health of a system, do you connect it to more of itself? We are
creating more of our self-connections inside. The more we can change ourselves, the
more that you can actually work with others. I see so many possibilities.
Eric Troth: There was something interesting, I believe it was Alf, that talked about the
movie Home and the line in there that its too late to be a pessimist. I thought that was a
really interesting comment in light of the overarching theme in this conference of radical
optimism. That weve come to a point where were starting to recognize the possibilities
and where we can move forward and theres a bright new future out there for us to pursue
wevegot to get out of the gloom and doom kind of mentality and reframing our minds. I
thought that fit in well with the themes were starting to develop.
Marilyn Hamilton: What I notice is that in each discussion we have been able to see
possibility and hope and Im so excited to bring in the younger generation that says its
time for a new game. Thats a take away line as far as Im concerned. Also, what you just
added in Eric that Its too late to be a pessimist. Well, Im also going to follow that up
with radical optimism because if this is what we can discover on day one of the conference,
then I can tell you I am becoming even more optimistic about what well be discovering
and what will emerge over the next 11 days.
Both Karen and Ina have brought up this lived concept of non-linearity and emergence.
We would expect that these conversations would make a difference and the difference
that makes a difference has already started. This kind of creativity is contagious.
Thank you so much Ina and Karen for joining us in this conversation. Your awakeness is
inspiring because thats what were trying to do: wake up and grow up. And you are
wonderful exemplars. Thank you so much for your contributions today.
Ina Horlings: Thank you Marilyn, it was very inspiring to be here.
Karen OBrien: Thank you and wow, Im not sure if Ill be able to go to sleep right now
because I find them very uplifting. [Note: Karen and Ina spoke at midnight and 1 a.m.
European time.]

1
What and where are we implementing emergence, complexity &
resilience intelligence?
Dr. Buzz Holling, OC
Interviewer: Dr. Marilyn Hamilton PhD
September 6, 2012

Dr. Crawford Stanley (Buzz) Holling, OC is a Canadian ecologist and
Emeritus Eminent Scholar and Professor in Ecological Sciences at the
University of Florida. Buzz is one of the conceptual founders of ecological
economics. He has received two major awards from the Ecological Society of
America, the Mercer Award given to a young scientist in recognition of an
outstanding paper in ecology in 1966, and the Eminent Ecologist Award for
outstanding contributions to the science of Ecology in 1999. He is a Fellow of
the Royal Society of Canada, a foreign Fellow of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and
has been awarded the Austrian Cross of Honor for Arts and Science. In 2009, he was made an
Officer of the Order of Canada for his pioneering contributions to the field of ecology, notably
for his work on ecosystem dynamics, resilience theory and ecological economics. Buzz has
introduced important ideas in the application of ecology and evolution, including resilience,
adaptive management, the adaptive cycle and panarchy.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that if we want a new future for the city then we do need a new
operating system for it. So this weeks focus is on a Planet of Cities and thinking about how
a planet of cities is actually about how Mother Earth is our mother board for a new
operating system. Todays theme is the intelligence of emergence. When I wrote the book
Integral Cities I defined that intelligence in terms of how the city as a whole is being
embraced as a whole unit, a living system through the lenses of aliveness, survival,
adaptiveness, regeneration, sustainability, emergence and resilience. As often happens
when you write a book, you commit it to print and then you realize emergence relates to a
cluster of intelligences that belong with complexity and resilience. So that is a wonderful
segue for me to be able to introduce the person who we will be talking with this morning
as our key thought leader on the subject. It is my pleasure to introduce Dr. Crawford
Holling better known as Buzz Holling. Buzz is an eminent scholar who Arthur R. Marshall
chair in ecological science at the University of Florida. There he has launched a
comparative study of structure and dynamics of ecosystems. The Boreal Forrest and the
Everglades provided the initial focus for modeling and analysis. Buzz has worked at
laboratories for the Department of the Environment for the Government of Canada where
the focus of his research was a mathematical and experimental analysis of ecological
systems, particularly predatory prey dynamics. He was also a professor and director of the
Institute of Resource Ecology at the University of British Columbia and the director of the
International Institute for applied systems analysis in Vienna, Austria.
His research emphasis was the theoretical and applied aspects of ecological systems
their assessment and management. His goal was to blend concepts of stability theory and
ecology with modeling and policy analysis. Through his research, Buzz has introduced
very important ideas in the application of ecology and evolution including: resilience,
adaptive management, the adaptive cycle and panarchy. Now something I really
appreciate about Buzz is that he is able to make very complex ideas understandable and
accessible to a wide audience. He joins me today from Nanaimo, BC, Canada where he now
lives. Welcome Buzz.
Buzz Holling: Thank you that was a very gracious introduction.
Marilyn Hamilton: I was inspired by your book Panarchy because of its evolutionary
view on ecosystems. Yesterday we listened to speakers on ecosphere intelligences. It is
very connected to this cluster of emergence, complexity and resilience intelligence. Today,
I wanted to remind our audience that in fact I already interviewed you as a prologue in
preparation for the conference. This interview, in which we talked about many of the basic
concepts that you used in thinking about resilience, is available on the website. Today, I
wanted to build on what we talked about in this interview. Can you help our audience to
understand that resilient systems have cycles that they go through. Could you start off by
telling us what those are?
Buzz Holling: In fact there are cycles at a number of different scales. For example, who am
I within sight of Vancouver (as Vancouver is just on the horizon). But right in front of me is
a bush and a tree with hummingbirds fighting around it this bush and tree. And I see
everything from those small cycles of the tree, the vegetation, and the birds to the larger
cycles that intersect with the city on the horizon.
The basic cycles that have emerged in our comparative study of various ecosystems and
human systems is called the adaptive cycle. It is one of the three or four key elements of
this particular view of the world and of complexity. The adaptive cycle is really self-
evident. It is built around the argument and demonstration that if change happens in
abrupt jumps then there will be a collapse. Out of that collapse, something will emerge
that either repeats what occurred before or moves in a new direction. The collapse occurs
because there had been an accumulation of productivity - essentially which increases
capital.
By capital I mean, in the forest it can simply be the accumulation of biomass in the trees
and the vegetation. In a human system, say a business, it can be the accumulation of
understanding of technique or process. As that capital accumulates, the system becomes
more productive. It becomes diverse. But it also gradually becomes more rigid. The very
success of that stage of growth leads to decreasing opportunity for unexpected things to
come in, to inoculate a process of innovation. The rigidity accumulates and there is a break
of some kind. For a forest, the break might be a forest fire or an insect outbreak. In a
business it may mean loss of market share and the stockholders get upset. For a nation or
a set of nations, it might be the kind of collapse that we saw in 2008 financial collapse
that we are still living with and will continue living with for some time.
So there is collapse. But with the collapse comes open opportunities, because with the
collapse is the release of this accumulated capital. Its no longer controlled. It is sloping
around open and available for other kind of surprising connections. Its a time when
reliance emerges, when experiments become possible and at the same time there is great
resistance to change from the accumulated vested interest that has existed up to that time.
So we have this wonderful period, which in a natural system occurs rather quickly and in a
human system occurs slowly. A period where there is great uncertainty, a great sense of
the unknown, a great opportunity for experiments at a number of scales. The fact is we are
now seeing those collapses at a time when we have a technology that can integrate us over
the planet. Witness what we are doing right now, or witness the internet, or email, or
Skype calls; and we have a situation where an experiment initiated in one place, can be
easily tested in many places.
Now the feature of experiments is that they will fail. Probability of failure is high. But
when they do succeed, if they link with other successful results of other experiments they
can synergize a new nucleus of growth. The adaptive cycle would then continue in another
form.
What can one do during that time? One can understand more deeply where the forces of
resistance occur and vested interest. That is evident to you every time you pick up a
newspaper. You can alert yourself to the variety of innovated experiments all the way
from social relations to technological inventions, to political experiments of various kinds.
And to be alert to those and synergize with them, become involved with them.
The experiments that I am currently involved in are experiments that have to do with
monitoring dramatic changes that are emerging because of climate change. These are
impacts that occur at a planetary scale but, are manifesting themselves at local village and
city scale.
We have a good colleague, Eddy Carmac, who was in charge of the three oceans study: a
monitoring scheme of the three oceans in the arctic. They flew three planes in an east-
west and west-east trajectory to measure attributes of the ocean and the surroundings
from an icebreaker. At the same time, on that icebreaker, Eddy invited a group of maybe
20 to 25 people on what he calls the philosophers cruise. It is quite lovely, quite excellent.
People are invited from a variety of backgrounds to talk about what their discoveries have
been. About what opportunities they see. About what experiments they are involved in. It
is working towards a new synthesis of understanding.
From that idea, came our idea for a mosquito fleet. The individual mosquito is a harmless
little creature. But as a flock, the mosquito can bite and make the society or the person
aware of larger scale phenomena.
The mosquito fleet in our case will be made up of a fishing boat in aboriginal villages
located at the mouth of rivers along the coast in Northern Washington, BC, Alaska and
with the Inuit on the ice sheets throughout the Arctic. So imagine then a fleet of boats.
Individual boats, maybe they are staffed by some school kids as well as the captain and the
crew, and theyre measuring, using instruments that Eddy has developed - exactly the
same sort of things that are used to measure from the icebreakers sweeping across the
planet from the North Pacific, through the Arctic oceans to the North Atlantic.
The same thing is being measured in an environment. That information can be shared
among the citizen groups involved, the schools and the scientists studying climate change
in the Arctic. The Arctic is a great place because there it is unambiguously clear that the
climate is changing. Thirty-five years of satellite imagery shows that the ice has been
summer-ized and is then gradually thinning and disappearing. This changes the heat
balance between the planet and the space, such that the overall top of the planet in total is
warming. That inevitably is going to percolate down to affect the lives of people living on
the coast in the various villages.
Now those are villages not cities. I argue that the changes that are going to be happening
have to first be detected and understood at a very local level. With that local
understanding a network of that understanding connecting to move then into the
larger cities, to become an environment to discuss what is happening.
The key thing in such changes - in such dramatic planetary changes - is that the future
becomes very unknown. The ability to predict what will happen becomes very small. The
unknown becomes very great. Surprises are inevitable. The way to deal with that is not to
plan the unknown out of the system, but to embrace the unknown through experiments
and through the sharing of knowledge that comes out of those experiments.
That is the heart of this theory of complexity. Let me tell you a little more about where it
came from. The formal research work we have done, concentrates on ecosystems around
the world: Everglades, the Boreal Forest Savannah of Africa, small lakes of Europe,
wetlands, dry lands, warm places, cold place. It is rooted in natural system. As we (a group
of about 40 people) did this work, we met in workshops. The great thing about workshops
is you can get good people together and talk deeply and significantly about some emerging
issues. You can set up the protocols necessary to do the work so that the following
workshop can advance things further. The workshops have always been held on islands
somewhere in the world like Herring Island in Australian, Malta in the Mediterranean, or
the Georgia Island in the US. They are held on islands because that helps people
concentrate. You get 25 or 30 people on an island and add in fun and limericks and you
establish a relationship amongst people, out of which comes a core of individuals that are
characterized by the joy of mutual discovery really. Each person brings something unique.
The individuals concerned are the type of people who dont fight about these other views,
but become curious about them and begin to embrace them. So out of it emerges a natural
synthesis.
We have done nothing on cities per se, except we have been involved with cities inevitably
as the work progressed. The first time this visibly happened was when I was flying from
Venezuela, where we had a workshop, around 1971 and flying all around Managua,
Nicaragua. In the plane, I was sitting in the chair wondering which names we could attach
to these emerging ideas. The story of the Managua earthquake came up. The Managua
earthquake hit in the early 1970s. It was an enormously destructive process, but also
extremely constructive because it severed the constipated authoritarian political system
that had embraced Managua. People were suddenly in a situation being freed from control
and searching for ways to support themselves. The search, the experiment, focused on
neighborhoods. Neighbor helped neighbor. Relatives helped relatives. The foreign aid
money didnt do any help at all. It was all local people helping each other. Out of that
experience, young people and old people built, out of that local experiment, the next phase
of growth of Managua and the next phase of renewal.
It reminded me of how when our work shifted from British Columbia to Vienna in 1970.
Vienna successfully established a new institute called International Institute of Applied
Systems Analysis - clearly a committee name. It was established just outside Vienna at a
time when Vienna was just recovering from the Second World War. The collapse that
occurred from the Second World War [was devastating] and many of the cities received
the enormous benefits of the Marshall Plan, but Vienna was occupied by the Germans,
British, Americans and the Soviet Union. It was split into three independent entities.
Through the brilliance of a chancellor at the time, gradually that was broken down and
Vienna was united, after a long period of time, into one city under one Austrian form of
governance.
That happened a few years before we arrived in 1970. It was a city that was gray,
dominated by old people and young people but mostly people who had been scarred.
There were many crippled people walking on crippled limbs as a result of the horrendous
experiences they had during the war.
It was also a place that the existing chancellor, Bruno Kreiske, developed this quite
marvelous policy. The policy essentially said there is no point in putting money into the
military to defend Austria. Whatever money we might put in would be overwhelmed if
there was a breakdown. Rather put the money into the historical castle. The memorable
buildings restore them, reinvent them. Invite international organizations to become part
of them. So that is why IIASA ended up in this place that was the summer palace of Maria
Teresa. It was still undergoing restoration, but was also where scientists from 15 different
nations east and west came together to understand and deal with problems that were
shared by all nations independent of political ideology. It was an ebullient time for us. It
was a time of discovery of new ideas, discovery of new friends, the implementation of new
ideas and the generation of fundamentally new approaches to change.
Around 1989 came the collapse of the Berlin Wall. The events that led to the Berlin Wall
happened over a long period of time. The freeing of the people in Berlin took place over
one weekend. It was sudden and explosive - the essential restriction of the Berlin wall
collapsed. Germany was then launched on a new phase of union between what was called
East Germany and West Germany. A union that was in retrospect a remarkable
commitment from the wealth of West Berlin and to [hospice] the deprivation in East
Berlin. A series of innovations and inventions occurred to make it one country which it is
now.
Each of these cases, as you examine them are examples of resilience. What happened were
the results of a major crisis. But the responses were multi-scale, experimental, and highly
inventive. They created a new phase for the start of the next adaptive cycle.
In the west, we have been involved in the growing expansion amongst countries and
nations since the early 1990s. That phase of the adaptive cycle is where we are
accumulating more and more capital more and more interaction. But, also a narrow
emphasis [is] global true - but narrow in the sense, in that it was dominated by economic
advance. The opportunities for social expansion and for environmental expansion were
there. However they were only partially explored hence, some of the problems in some of
the Euro countries now.
But it was a major expansion which was rather narrowly focused. It is inevitable that good
things and bad things happen within such a process. The bad - this was the other break -
the other crisis that occurred in 2008 - which was the collapse of the tottering, extreme,
manipulative (Im being very judgmental here) financial system emerging in the US
particularly. A break that occurred in 2008 is still persisting and, still affecting us and will
continue to do so for the next decade at least.
What we saw as we moved from workshop to workshop - we saw people in various cities
and countries - was the response to a crisis which drew upon the resilience of the system
and inventiveness of individual human beings to create little nuclei of opportunity that
then could expand. But that expansion, while inevitable, is always limited in some way. It
is always targeting itself through its very success on one kind of capital accumulation and
forgetting about the balance needed. So if anything is needed now, it is balance that is
recognizing that there is ecological, environmental, social, and economic dimensions to all
the problems we are facing now within each of our countries around the world. Balance is
needed amongst them. Understanding of what that balance might be is needed along with
recognition that there will be resistance to whatever you might want to do because of the
vested interests of the base. Third, the resistance will be directed towards the experiments
that you launch.
Those can be done in an atmosphere of great fun and creativity. Their key feature, besides
being inventive and novel, is that they must be ready to fail without the people doing the
experiment being destroyed in the process. So small scale, low cost, but enormously
inventive and expansive in potential, experiments are needed.
Marilyn Hamilton: Buzz, these are very practical ways for us to notice the cycles that are
going in the city. Also, you are pointing at a number of ways that we can choose to interact
in the city. So the experiments give us hope. You actually sound full of radical optimism
which is one of the ways we described this conference. It sounds to me like your adaptive
cycles allow us to see that just because we are facing resistance, doesnt mean that that is
the only thing that is going on. That in fact there will have been cycles before that and
there will be cycles to follow it. It sounds like what you are suggesting is that we actually
have a role in seeding the next cycle. Do I understand that correctly?
Buzz Holling: You got it right on Marilyn. Very good.
Marilyn Hamilton: So I really like the idea of the examples that you have pointed at
because the Managua earthquake is something that often we would think about cities that
are impacted by natural disasters and that we cant do anything. I appreciated that what
you saw was the neighbor helping neighbor that made the difference. So this whole idea of
social capital being released - as the result of natural capital having its own agenda - is
itself really generative. Im curious, how can you suggest that we look at regenerating our
own relationship to the city? Many of us seem to get locked in to only one way of doing
things. In this way of looking at the city as resilient and emergent, is it something that we
have to take much more responsibility over realizing that anything we do in the city
creates feedback loops? Can we become more intentional about that?
Buzz Holling: Yes. My wife and I have moved probably five major times to various cities in
the world. Every time weve moved, whether it was to a large city or a small city, weve
always looked for associations with other people. We always look for associations within
the city of other people who have the features of being good on islands. That is people
who are imaginative, who are open, have very different experiences in business, in
academia, in all the social and economic dimensions of human activity. But share a
common purpose, a common goal. The goal has to do with equity, balance, and
sustainability. The goal is never achieved, but by being there is always approachable.
So in our case, although we have no religious associations, we decided that when we came
to Nanaimo (which means meeting place by the way) that we would explore and see if
the Unitarian fellowship had the kind of ingredients and people that are good on islands.
Turned out they were just wonderful.
From that came discussion groups and groups also that helped in an active way in dealing
with homeless people. We established a homeless shelter. These are all small scale, all
terribly important and all sharing the same values. But they are all small scale. Out of that
grouping of people (and they involved people of different ages and different background
who were all good on islands) has emerged a movement of intention that is growing
within our little community of Nanaimo, but also in Vancouver and other cities that we
interact with. So doing what the Managua people do of looking in your local neighborhood
for people of like-mind and like-spirit is a way to start and identify the experiments that
could be moved into a new transformative phase.
Marilyn Hamilton: This ties in well with what we heard at our last session with Karen
OBrien who is with the IPPC and Ina Horlings in the Netherlands. We had a very
generative discussion about how local action can include even art and creative
opportunities. I love your idea of the island. I think that in this experiment of the Integral
City 2.0 Online Conference it is kind of like a virtual island where we have invited people
who have the qualities that you are talking about. We are good on islands I think. Little did
we know that we would have someone that would frame it for us that way. I hadnt been
thinking of it that way. I have my own personal experience with islands - everything from
Bowen Island, to having lived in the Bahamas on a couple of islands. It does bring a real
special focus to thinking about how you are going to face challenges or how you are going
to enable sustainability and the cycles of life. It is as if it creates a special membrane or
boundary a systems awareness perhaps. Is that part of how you think that the
experiments that happen on islands can help inform the larger system?
Buzz Holling: Exactly - it is not just half of our brain; it is not just the intellectual part of
our brain, but also our artistic part of our brain. Every one of our workshops also has
some dimension of art, often music. One of the guys involved says he never knows
whether to introduce himself as a scientist interested in integration or introduce himself
as a musician concerned and interested in his compositions. So music and art become as
much a part of the process, as inquiry and discovery, as does the science behind our work.
Art provides the kind of richness that is needed to get the balance required as one
progresses in a world where the unknown is very great and the known is useful but small.
Where traditional approaches will lead you astray and several different novel approaches
will point the way.
Marilyn Hamilton: It reminds me of a musician that I met in a workshop related to self-
organizing systems. His name is Miha Pogacnik. He told me that the true artist is only
interested in the impossible. And that sounds like the kind of attitude that you need in
approaching the unknown, setting up experiments, and allowing the creativity to flow
without necessarily knowing at all, what will come out. But something will if you create
this habitat for it.
Buzz Holling: Precisely.

1
What and where are we implementing emergence, complexity
and resilience intelligence?
Jan de Dood & Harrie Vollaard
September 5, 2012

Jan de Dood has been working in the financial industry for more than 30
years. Currently he is head of risk management of the private banking
division of the Rabobank in the Netherlands. Within the Rabobank, he is
also involved in a variety of activities all related to the creation of a more resilient
financial industry. Besides his work for the Rabobank, Jan participates in (and advises)
several foundations and working groups, including the Center for Human Emergence in
the Netherlands. Jan is also a philosopher and integral thinker. In this respect however, he
is always looking for the connection between a great vision or philosophy and the real
world, trying to make ideas work. He is co-author of the book The Future of a Truly Stable
Economic Order, published in 2009, and is a frequent speaker in the
Netherlands.

Harrie Vollaard is the Head of Rabobanks Innovation Department, heading
up a group of innovation project managers. He is responsible for:
innovation management; innovation process, idea management, open
innovation, enhancing innovation capacity, creativity, and building up
internal and external networks. Harrie manages Rabobanks Innovation Program which
includes new business development projects on e.g. mobile, social media, p2p banking,
and green IT. Harrie watches trends, especially IT trends. He designs Business IT strategy;
e.g. the new ways of working with Mobile, Social Media and Sustainability. Harrie is
considered to be very skilled and passionate in shaping unexploited areas with a vision for
the future, especially from a helicopter view where persistence, creativity, vision, problem
analysis, and cooperation are required.


Marilyn Hamilton: Jan, as a person working and representing a financial institution, how
do you think about resilience and emergence in the City?
Jan de Dood: Its certainly a very interesting question, and before I go into this let me first
point out that all the things Im going to say tonight will not necessarily mean its the
general opinion of the Rabobank but I can assure you it certainly aligns. I dont have to
worry about that. Sometimes I have a different view on some details, lets put it that way.
Back to the question; I think that first, I want to give you an overview of my thoughts
about all this and then Ill hand it over to Harrie so he can tell us more about a specific role
of himself and of the Rabobank.
I dont think that youll be surprised when I say that I think were in a severe, financial and
economic crisis at this moment. Maybe it is a surprise when I say that this financial crisis
will just look like a minor crisis compared to the crisis we will see in the near future if you
dont take the appropriate action on the right level and as soon as possible. I will come
back on that later; lets first take a look at whats going on right now. What we see is a
financial crisis that has, at least according to the experts, two main components:
1. First we have the problem of too much government debt.
2. Secondly we have the problem of deficits.

Now looking at the debt problem there is a kind of base rule that says the way you have
debt to the GDP ratio at or beyond 90 per cent, you are or soon will be in trouble. And as
we all know now a lot of western countries are somewhere there, and it is also one of the
things that caused the problem we have here in Europe. Now at the same time we see that
the 2
nd
problem is not really addressed. Most countries we are seeing are still running
deficits and it looks like they will do so in the next few years.
Now the question is: are the ideas proposed by all the financial experts, economists and
regulators or politicians - are they enough to solve the problems and stop the danger of
this crisis? Although, it looks like they are good willing and pleasant people Im afraid that
what they do will sometimes, and somehow, work in the short term but I think its, by far,
not enough to solve the real crisis, and to save the world from a disaster that is looming on
the horizon if we dont take appropriate action. Now the reason Im saying this is that
when you look for solutions you first have to have the right picture of the underlying
problem.
As far as I can see and hear, most people in charge dont have that picture. To make clear
what Im talking about is that we first have to look at the debt problem. As I said, a 90 per
cent debt to the GDP ratio is worrisome, and a lot of western countries have almost
reached or breached that level.
The question remains, are we looking at the right figures? Because when you are looking
at the debt levels you should also take into account the other obligations you have. In
effect we should take into account all the future obligations of the government, which they
have to the people and then distract future tax payments from that. Thats what they call
the fiscal deficit.
I have to admit that I dont have all the figures here at hand - as far as I know when we
make this calculation and take into account the demographics of the next decennia, the
total deficit of the US is not the 13 trillion US dollars we are worried about now, but its an
astonishing deficit of 200 trillion. According to my knowledge, all western counties have
such a hidden deficit.
So you can ask yourself, does it make sense to worry about fiscal deficits or should we
focus our energy on the real deficits. I think its the latter. By doing that we have to
realize that current financial and economic systems can never meet the obligations that
different governments have. So the only way thats left is to re-organize or re-design the
current system, and not only the financial system, but our whole society. Thats why I
think this [Integral City 2.0 Online Conference] initiative is really worthwhile.
Now, I said a few minutes ago; that when you want to address the problems were facing
and re-design society, you first have to find out what the real problem is. You have to have
a clear and total overview of the whole situation. To create this overview, lets take a look
at the different crises in our world.
According to the media, and also my knowledge, we can speak of having five big crises.
1. First we have the water crisis. On one hand we are polluting our water resources
with toxics, fertilizers, medicine residues, etc. On the other hand, we are depleting
aquifers with the water tables falling because of over-irrigation and we have to face
the fact that glaciers, the final fleeting water systems, are diminishing because of
climate change.
2. Secondly we have a food crisis. Every day, more than 200,000 new citizens are
joining us on this world, and they all want to join us at the dinner tables. At the
same time, we see more and more people changing their eating habits. They move
from eating vegetables to eating meat, and I can assure you, we are not really
resource efficient.
3. The third crisis is the energy crisis. Sooner or later we will run out of fossil energy -
it can be 30 years; it can be 50 years; I dont know. As long as were using fossil
energy, we have to cope with the negative consequences in terms of environmental
damage.
4. Then we have a financial crisis. Since I spoke about that earlier, I will skip it for
now.
5. Last but not least, we have a climate crisis. And although there have always been
arguments about the warming of the earth, its clear to me that we can at least speak
of a dramatic climate change.

Now looking at these five crises, we can see that they appear at random. But if we take a
closer look, philosophically, we can see a clear structure. What we are seeing here is a
logical sequence in complexity, in effect, a kind of pyramid of Maslow of the evolution of
mankind. I will give you a short introduction to it to make it clear.
Because water is about the existence of life on earth, without it life is not possible. Once
we are living on this planet we are looking for growth, and food is about growth. Once we
have growth we are looking for creativity and dynamics which is about energy.
Finance is about structures. Once we have these dynamics and creativity we are really
looking for structures and out of these structures a system will occur, thats about climate.
So if you look at it from this perspective, it doesnt make sense that we think we can solve
our current and future problems by focusing on the climate issues. As far as I know, bees
and ants are one of the oldest species here on earth, and its not because they were
holding climate conferences. They adjusted their way of living and behaving. And, it also
doesnt make sense to start the re-structuring or re-designing of our society by first re-
creating a new financial or economic system. A financial system should serve society and
not, whats now the case, the other way around. Its because of this you first have to look
at the basis and the basics of human life and thats in fact the basis of the pyramid of
evolution, mainly our water and food systems. Once we have a solid basis on these levels,
all the other systems will adjust and transform in a way thats aligned with the new reality.
So, we have a starting point, but before we run into a total new design we have to wonder
if there is something of the old system thats being used to create something new. The
reason I mention this is because I think that our current financial system has something
thats of great value for the development of our future system.
In this case, and in alignment with this Integral City Initiative, I believe that in order to
create a more resilient society we have to organize our society in a local way but still with
a global perspective. We have to create communities that are as much self-sufficient as
possible and especially in relation to the basic needs like water, food and energy. If a
community cant do these things on its own, well have to create a truly vital cooperation
with others. With that we create a kind of cell-structure which will be much more
resilient than a total open system. In fact we create a new human ecological system with a
greater bio-diversity in terms of structures, not only for water or food but for example
currency systems.
Now, coming back to what I said about things of value from the old systems, lets look at
the most valuable asset of the financial institutions. This is not the amount of money they
have access to. It is my opinion it is their client base. And to link it specifically to the
Rabobank, the bank we work for, we have access to all kinds of people and businesses in
society, including SMEs, big corporations and governments, on every level and as well on
a national as on an international level.
The great value of this is that when it comes to think about a new design for our society,
we are able to connect the right people and businesses and facilitate the organization of
solutions. And in fact thats whats we have to do now, because as a good friend of mine
always says: all the solutions for the problems we face, are available. The only thing we
have to do is organize them. And by organizing solutions on all kind of levels, and from all
kinds of different and new perspectives, we can create a new world-wide web, a world-
wide web in which we can catch our future.
Harrie Vollaard: The Rabobank system currently operates on cooperative systems and
that really distinguishes us from all of the other banks, and that means our members and
customers are our shareholders. As a cooperative bank our core objective is to create the
highest possible customer value instead of raising profits like all of the other regular
companies. Part of our mission is to deliver excellent services to our customers on the
short term but also on the long term, especially in this difficult financial time. The most
distinguishing factor is how evidently as an institute, a part of a society with the
ecosystem of our customers, can we initiate or participate in projects and joint ventures?
Well collaborate with all organizations and institutes to create a sustainable economic
environment where our customers can realize their ambitions. So creating the right
context for our business is a very important part of our mission. I think this distinguishes
us apart from all the banks.
At the moment, because of the financial crisis and the role of the banks, a lot of attention is
paid to the first part of our mission on delivering excellent and transparent financial
services. The way I look at it is from more of a hygienic factor. It needs to be done more
yesterday than today and as quickly as possible. I think that the real solution, that Jan was
saying, that solution is enclosed in the second part. To realize we are a part of a bigger
ecosystem, and were not alone in this world. You need to be involved within the context
of your customers and the society and look at how you can stimulate them within the
context. Create the condition to flourish and help [our customers] reach their greatest
ambition. Thats why sustainability has always been at the heart of the Rabobank and
even more right now. I think thats the context from which were operating.
Marilyn Hamilton: Can you give us examples of ways youve been experimenting with
this in the Innovation Lab?
Harrie Vollaard: We look at it from a different perspective. From a hygienic factor you
need to look at yourself and set a good example. Sustainability within our company is a
big theme; to lower our carbon footprint and create awareness within our company (as an
employee) by using public transport or using video conferencing.
Jan de Dood: Within our bank there are many departments working on all kinds of levels
to live up to our values. Rabobanks name comes from Raiffeisen-Boerenleenbank.
Raiffeisen was a Major in Germany who never started a financial company but he started a
bakery for the farmers in Germany because they werent getting paid for their grain
harvests alone. The bakery allowed them to sell their own bread and make more money.
Thats what I mean when we look at Rabobank at this moment. Were seeing more and
more that our local banks organize with their employees and clients for solutions in their
local communities; a future role that Rabobank has to play, and will play, also because of
the current crisis thats getting worse.
The government will do less and other stakeholders have to stand up to organize the
solutions we need in local communities. I think were well prepared to do that as we have
direct clients and money to not only organize but to facilitate these kinds of things. I see
all kinds of cooperative energy companies emerging in the community as well as farmer
organizations. And so were organizing or re-organizing communities in a more
cooperative way with a lot of work left to do yet in the Netherlands and even our bank. I
see some projects, some Im working on in fact, that were just organizing in the
Netherlands and around the world.
Our bank is the fourth leader of the food and agriculture business. I think we are actually
the largest agri bank in the world. Were the also the 4
th
leading financer of renewable
energy so we have a lot of knowledge and context in all the future change which are really,
the basis of our society. I think we can do a lot of work there. What we are trying to do is
create the solutions from the Netherlands, for the world.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats really inspiring; thank you for giving us that insight into what is
old and new again. You have the roots of your company in the cooperative movement
from the original founders of farmers, and now you are going back to those roots and
bringing that forward. Is that something you see worth keeping and can expand in a
whole new way?
Harrie Vollaard: I see a lot of self-organization happening in the cities and its all around
societal issues on generating energy or healthcare or very practical things. I think the
interesting thing is the self-organized groups or communities always come to our bank
first. They recognize the cooperative structure and these local communities are also
based on cooperative principals so they link very well together.
We actually bring in the knowledge of how to organize the communities and we can also
facilitate with the financial instruments. We can link them to other clients of the bank; if
you look at generating energy, we can bring knowledge to these local communities about
finances and through our clients, knowledge on how to generate electricity to the network,
etc. So theres definitely some value there thats interesting to see how its linked to the
roots of our banks and its the way we actually started 100 years ago in the rural areas but
now its happening in the cities.
Marilyn Hamilton: So Harrie thats also really interesting because I dont think most
people would normally put the words bank and self-organizing together. And theres
so much capacity in people knowing each other in their local neighborhoods and youre
now proposing thats actually a capacity that Rabobank is rich in. Instead of mining that
information for the banks profit-making purposes, youre actually stepping into a much
fuller understanding of what it means to generate value for your customers.
Harrie Vollaard: Thats correct because in the long term if the people are doing ok then
we are doing ok as well, and that is what happens by creating a rich context for our
customers. Again it really links to where we are coming from.
One of the initiatives that were currently working on is related to healthcare, [in respect
to] a couple of organizations in the Netherlands. We try to empower the people and
leverage their power to do something good for their neighbor. And we facilitate this by
our website or marketplace, more or less, where people can ask for help or contribute to
their neighbor. If people are responsible in taking care of each other, it creates a better
neighborhood and improves the liability of the neighborhood which makes this such an
interesting topic. I think its definitely something valuable with a big impact on our
neighborhoods.
Marilyn Hamilton: I can see theres a question from our audience that is curious about
alternative currencies. If I recall correctly Jan, when we were talking about your
healthcare initiatives you were actually talking about a form of local currency related to
the healthcare. Could you tell us a little bit more about that initiative?
Harrie Vollaard: A lot of the problems people are facing [occur] when theyre giving care
to their relatives, they feel undervalued. So we thought to show our appreciation if you do
something good for your neighbor or your relatives you can actually earn credits, which is
actually community currency. So it shows appreciation for the work that is being done,
and with the earned credits you can actually, more or less, buy activities that are needed
by your relatives, purchase products from local organizations, or local services. This
really stimulates the local economy and local diversity, and gives an extra boost to local
organizations in the neighborhood.
Jan de Dood: May I add something to that Marilyn? Because in general when you speak
about local currencies and when you look at Europe we have a real problem with our
deficits, with our debt and with all of the countries running around and trying to do their
thing to help with the problems. One of the key issues here is that we have one currency.
If you really look at biodiversity and the ecological systems we dont have that in our
currency system. And I think it would be a great thing to create more alternative
currencies in Europe - and you still can have the Euro for general or trade purposes - but
when you have more local and alternative currencies and one system collapses then the
other can take over. And then you have much more resilience in your economic and
financial systems also. So I think theres two ways; one to create biodiversity and create
resilience overall, the other way that Harrie said is about creating more activities and
responsibilities in the community.
Marilyn Hamilton: So what I see that youre speaking to here is what I would call a
feedback loop. Youre taking this initiative to put the financial institution in service to the
wellbeing of your customers, and those customers are key organs, if you will, in this city
itself and their communities in the city. By setting up these feedback loops youre actually
going to create something that I would guess is going to be fairly re-generative, especially
if youre starting in places like healthcare and well-being. Have you seen any examples of
this happening with your clients so far?
Harrie Vollaard: Well not at the moment. But we just started an experiment in
Amsterdam and since its so new we dont have real results yet. I know from other
experiments though, that using a credit system within healthcare or the well-being within
the neighborhood, really activates people to do good things.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well I really applaud you for the experiment because, again, that was
something that Dr. Buzz Holling spoke to us about earlier today; that resilient systems,
human systems, really have their start in experiments. That doesnt generally mean a
whole city that shifts into new structures, but he gave examples of cities that have been
the victims of natural disasters and the governments were useless as were the emergency
response systems. What actually enabled people to move on was because they helped
each other with peer-to-peer support. And now what Im hearing is that youre using your
capacities within the bank to feed that opportunity and allow self-organizing among the
customers to actually have a chance to change the system. So thank you very much for
coming to share that story. Are there any other ways that you would like to share on the
type of innovation systems Rabobank has been creating to develop whole new
relationships of the financial system with the city?
Jan de Dood: Well maybe I can add one thing thats made possible by the Rabobank.
When you want to create a whole new society or re-design your society, or transform it,
one of the things you have to do is think in a different way. I think Rabobank really offers
the possibility to do that. Although, as you said in your introduction sometimes its hard
to bring it up but eventually they will listen. For example when you look at the pension
riots we have in the Netherlands, we should redefine our thinking about all of these
indexed linked pensions. Because we can ask ourselves what is more of a value, 40,000
in money in an environmentally unstable society or should we invest the pension capital
into these kinds of things? So theres more assurance that our basic needs can be met, but
maybe theres a little less money to spend? And thats what Harrie was referring to. You
have to create other things, a whole new way of thinking, whole new ways of doing, and by
that you can create new things.
Marilyn Hamilton: So what I hear you saying is that youre not only engendering the
relationships you see are core to a healthy community, but looking at the considerable
financial capital that you do have on hand? You pointed out that unlike the governments
who are duking it out, and almost descending to the bottom of the barrel these days, that
in fact the bank is in a position to look at its capital and make both foundation and
investment fund decisions that are grounded in really good sustainability principles and
therefore create the conditions for capital regenerating in the future. Is that a fair
restatement of what your intentions are?
Jan de Dood: Of course we are a big bank and an important bank. We are heard by the
government, the people and other institutions. So then we can cooperate, and when we
have ideas for these kinds of things we can align them together to see how theyll work in
society.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that what we should be watching for is how Rabobank is
making decisions about investing in the pyramid of evolution you are talking about; food,
water, energy, and all those things that are foundational to our well-being. Again, I would
just like to applaud you for this initiative. As I said in my introduction, youre taking
initiatives that we dont see on the front pages or even in the financial pages of our papers
and youve provoked a lot of interest from our audience today. We have both, hands
raised and written questions so would you like to host those for us Eric?
Question from Graham Boyd: Im curious about the role that alternative currencies can
play enabling, in particular, Gen Y young entrepreneurs to both start up their businesses,
start off their ideas and trade perhaps between each other in ways that free them from
one of their current limitations mainly the difficulty today of obtaining bank credit or
traditional investment from any other typical investment vehicle.
Harrie Vollaard: That is currently not the way were using community currencies within
the pilot cities. Community currencies are currently being used to stimulate the activities
of people within the neighborhoods to look after each other and look after their street, its
very practical. I understand what youre saying - its definitely an interesting topic to look
at. Youve probably heard about Time Banks and the way you could exchange activity
between each other. Its actually an interesting topic to look at and to use Time Banks
alone for starting companies or together with community currency. But again, the setup
within pilot cities is not been used yet for companies or Gen Y.
Question from Steve: Its been a fascinating conversation, I was wondering if either of
you were very familiar with the writing of Charles Eisenstein and Sacred Economics. How
does your system of banking maybe deviate from some of Charless understandings and
notions of resource based economy and or gifting and a negative interest rate
functionality that he describes in Sacred Economics.
Jan de Dood: I have to say that at Rabobank were really ahead of a lot of things but I dont
think we are ready for his way of thinking to incorporate that into the real world.
I still think there is this kind of initiative somewhere in Austria which is using negative
interest rates in the system at least they did (in Vienna) sometime in the 1930s. Its really
a very interesting thing - before a negative interest system [operates] you really need
government assistance because as a bank you cant create a real business model in the
current situation.
What we are thinking about is a way to look at impact investing, where youre looking for
both financial and societal returns - but you have to measure. The next step is to create a
tax system which is based on this principle because then you can create some companies,
on the one hand they can be financially profitable and on the other hand have to pay taxes.
But as a society they are not very profitable. But you also can have it the other way round.
If you create a tax system thats really socially profitable, a company can get taxes from
companies that are financially profitable to create a kind of economic system that is also
based on giving. Not giving to another, but giving to the whole system or shall we call
Earth. That is something were looking at together with some universities at this moment
[to see] if we can create such a system in the future here in Holland.
Marilyn Hamilton: Jan, just for clarification for the audience, when youre talking about
negative tax systems are you meaning the kind of system where youre taxing money for
not circulating as opposed to paying interest on principle as were calculating now? Is that
the kind of thing youre talking about so we can have a wider understanding?
Steve: Charles Eisenstein talks about a negative interest rate where money actually loses
value and forces lenders to quickly lend it out and circulate it.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats just what I wanted to clarify and Jan thats also how you
understood the negative interest rate?
Jan de Dood: Yes. I dont think its a very suitable business model at this moment, as you
said its always good to look for things you can implement now. Were still in a transition,
when we move 10 years from now maybe it will be a suitable system then. Its not the
accessibility of money thats a problem in this world, theres a lot of money, investment
possibilities so its not really something in my opinion we need right now. When I talk
about societal return and financial return and the combination, mix that with a kind of tax
system but not in terms of negative interest systems.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well its looking like something like this might definitely emerge in
the next 10 years if not earlier. I know that Mark Carney, who is the head of Canadas
central bank has been berating our Canadian companies for what he called dead money.
You know, like youre sitting on a bunch of money and not circulating it because youre too
cautious about what is going on in the overall economic system. So it is almost like a call
to arms for the commercial interests to get those financial returns moving. But, perhaps
its been completely dislocated from what you pointed out Jan, the societal returns. So
thank you Steve for your question and thank you Jan for your answer. Eric do we have any
more questions?
Eric Troth: Yes theres another one here that fits along with these themes. What are the
new emerging practices that will help Gen Y and social entrepreneurs? For example, de-
coupling from traditional capital investments.
Jan de Dood: Yes well, I think this is a very interesting topic at the moment now especially
in the Netherlands its all about crowd funding. Crowd funding is based on social media
techniques and is related to the future community. So its quite easy to link to each other
and share moments and share money. At the moment in the Netherlands I see quite a lot
of different forms at the moment, the crowd funding model really links to Gen Y. because
they are used to these tools they are used to communicating through the Internet and
social media, and maybe that answers your question.
Harrie Vollaard: Maybe I can add something else. Its not only crowd funding but I also
think the new investment theme that is coming up is called impact investing. And
although there are already a lot of initiatives, there also the JP Morgans of this world
which are moving into this area of investments. And Im not really sure if all these banks
have the same attitude with it or the right attitude but I think impact investing is also
about discrimination of financial and societal return and social entrepreneurs are really
coming into this transformation world and new initiatives that we need. I think there are
more possibilities to get financed by these kinds of investment firms and communities. So
what I see is, were looking for small initiatives that are scalable. So first we have small
initiatives for the social entrepreneur with financing that together with some foundation
or NGO organizations - those which we see that are working financially and societally -
then we can scale it up with the investment firms which are located in the impact
investment funds. I can also see that the social entrepreneurs have real access to a lot of
money which is in the impact investment industry at this moment.
Marilyn Hamilton: Jan and Harrie, I want to thank you for bringing such vitally inspiring
ideas about how Rabobank is drawing from its cooperative roots and designing resilience
into its community-based relationships with customers and corporate clients.


1
Planet of Cities - Mother Earth @ Motherboard
What and where are we implementing emergence, complexity &
resilience intelligence?
Dr. Ian Wight and Will Varey, LLB
September 5, 2012
Dr. Ian Wight is a Canadian of Scottish descent working at the University of
Manitobas Department of City Planning. He has worked as a professional
city planner in Western Canada in the fields of regional planning, municipal
affairs and islands planning/governance. Ian is a founding board member of
the Council for Canadian Urbanism, an inaugural member of the Integral
Institute, and a member of two 'communities of practice' - the Ginger Group
Collaborative and Next Step Integral. Ian promotes city planning as place-
making (as wellbeing by design), and regional planning as common-place-making on a
grand scale. His current action research is focused on 'evolving professionalism - beyond
the status quo', prospecting an integral form of planning that transcends and includes the
best of pre-modern, modern and post-modern planning. Building on the social
technologies of presencing and meshworking, Ian delivers workshops on praxis-making
and ethos-making meshing the personal, the professional and the spiritual.
Will Varey (B.Juris., LLB (Hons.), MLM) is the principal of an ethical
sustainability consultancy that focuses on societal generativity. His
specialist research area is the formation dynamics of thought-ecologies. His
advisory work principally concerns sustainability policy and project design,
primarily for water security, waste management, telecommunications,
energy planning, natural resource conservation and community
development. He has recently completed his doctoral research into methods
for visualization of the psychodynamic capacity of sustainable social systems. He is the
founder of the research field of apithology, which examines the generative growth of
healthy societies and is the convener of a world-wide community of practice undertaking
work empathetic to these aims.
Eric Troth: Our leading practitioners for this session are Ian Wight and Will Varey, who
will be interviewed by Beth Sanders.

Let me introduce our interviewer. Beth Sanders is a freelance professional city-planner in
Canada. She is very attentive to the various levels of scales that she works from, being a
citizen, family member, in the neighborhoods and all the way up to the provincial, country
and planetary levels. She is a co-designer of this conference along with Marilyn Hamilton
and is our Harvester-in-Chief, working with all of the themes and topics that are coming
up and weaving them together, trying to make meaning for all of us as we partake in this
very reach feast of the Integral City 2.0 Conference. Welcome, Beth!
Beth Sanders: Thank you Eric for that kind introduction and thanks to you Eric in
particular for creating this space over the phone across the planet for us to have an
opportunity to weave all of this intelligence together throughout the conference and,
today.
It's my pleasure to introduce this session first by framing it within the theme for this first
week of the Integral City 2.0 Conference. If we want a new future for the city then we need
a new operating system for it. And this weeks focus is on a Planet of Cities - Mother Earth
as the Motherboard.
Today's theme is emergence intelligence. Integral City defines emergency intelligence by
looking at the city as a whole through the lenses of aliveness, survival, adaptiveness,
regeneration, sustainability, and emergence and, of course, resilience. In this session in
particular we will focus on the leading practitioners who are turning this intelligence into
actionable outcomes. It's my pleasure to introduce you to two leading practitioners: Dr.
Ian Wight and Will Varey. Ian and Will and I are going to bop around a little bit amongst
each other in the conversation.
I'm looking forward to the discussion with Ian and Will. In the spirit of full disclosure - Ian
is my former thesis advisor, where he got to drill me. When it comes to Will I'm really
curious about his interest in communication breakdowns and how when they occur the
functions start to function a little less effectively and how the reverse can be the case
when our communication relationships are strong perhaps the emergent really jumps
forward for us.
I'm going to begin with Ian and a simple question or maybe it's not so simple. What are
the stages that living systems cycle through?
Ian Wight: Thank you, Beth. I don't think it's necessarily an easy question. If we are
talking about the living systems in our context of looking at the version 2.0 of Integral City
that could be, looking at it through an emergence perspective, we are literally talking
about the spiraling dynamics to these living systems. The basics of Spiral Dynamics has
been well articulated in Marilyn Hamilton's work. We are talking about stages there, that
might go from a very early, initial and very survival oriented structuring of society,
moving through more tribal forms of organization, moving through the cycle further into
power based hierarchies, then the cycling probably goes to authority based hierarchies,
very much concerned with order, continuing on to what would be more strategic business

oriented hierarchical systems; moving on, getting to the top of what in Spiral Dynamics
we call the first tier, we are getting into an organization that very much involves social
networks. What's interesting about an integral framing for living systems is that we start
to think of a second tier of these initial six stages, that's where we're starting to anticipate
a lot of the context associated with emergence.
We are talking now more about self-organizing systems; going even farther I've seen
discussions in terms of a global noetic field. These later two are just emerging literally.
The previous six - we see forms of them in many societies, some more than others. The
distinctive thing about the integral ones, the last two, is that they acknowledge and
attempt to include all the stages in the previous tier and operate on from there.
I like to say, that first tier is very much survival oriented. For me sustainability is very
much a product of that first tier of evolving structures. I have a hunch, that the second tier
has possibly more to do with thrival rather than survival. But it's something thats still to
be emerged. I think we are seeing in common when we are talking about living systems
that are complex, adaptive, self-organizing. These stages are forming tiers, this integral
signaling, what I would say, to be the upper tier, which attempts to be inclusively
integrating of that previous tier and stages. Did that cover it or do you want to add
something else?
Beth Sanders: No, I think that's great, Ian. As you are looking at all of those stages how do
you see the citys key players showing up?
Ian Wight: For me, I guess, it goes to how I have to reframe the system and living systems
in my own terms. I see a lot of that through a professional lens. You mentioned my interest
in evolving professionalism. I think the way it shows up could involve folks who are just
simply in the system's maintenance business. I think, a lot of modern professionals are
showing up in that area. Some of them, though, are also getting into the system change
context. They are more interested in changing the system than in maintaining the system.
Then there is another group, maybe smaller, literally a potential leading edge, that would
be casting themselves in more of a system transformation business.
In my field we have a lot of planning, for example, that is essentially system maintenance. I
usually argue that the best planning will at least be engaging a large chunk of system
change. It would be doing so with an eye in part to the possibilities of system
transformation. That happens to be the way it would show up in my field.
Beth Sanders: Your field as a professional city planner - where do you see citizens fitting
in?
Ian Wight: Citizens take part beginning in their neighborhoods, where they are living, also
in the communities of interest that they share. Usually I context it in terms of the places
where there are people operating in place, making those places, to the extent of an
openness to actually engage to be neighborly and to commune. I think that's where I
would see the participation happening.

Beth Sanders: Now when you are describing the professionals and citizens may be
distributed in a similar fashion, that most of us are in the systems maintenance business,
some of us are in the systems change business and a few of us are in the transformation
business or maybe even the transmutation business. I'm wondering how you see the
relationship amongst these three roles, and of course I'm making a connection to Marilyn
Hamilton's roles that she sees in a hive and the city. And that there are conformity
enforcers and there are diversity generators. She's added two other layers here which are
the resource allocators and the inner judges . I'm wondering before we move on to Will
here shortly, what do you see the relationship between these roles in that dance in the
hive, that is the city?
Ian Wight: I think if we are talking conformity enforcers in the terms I was speaking to,
these would be the agents of order, the agents of a status quo. They are very much
associated with continuity and with a healthy existence, there would be some content
around it. If you move on to diversity generators, I think we are looking there for citizens
who are more comfortable playing a role of artists, these could be artists of all stripes,
these could be folks who cast themselves as iconoclasts, some contrarians, sometimes I
would identify as a sort of counter pointer looking literally for counterpoints to what
might be the conformist position. In integral terms diversity generators might involve the
post-conventionals.
Those resource allocators to me are more obviously councils, who are in a government
position, the boards, the institutions, it could include the chambers of commerce, they
literally have a role and allocating resources that community might confer on them.
Who are the Inner Judges who have always interested me - they are not necessarily so
obvious and so institutionalized. But these would be the folks who have gained the status
of comparative sages. These would be the Margaret Meads sapients in her sapient circles,
the wise ones. May be that's too simplistic, but may be that helps to make a connection
with some of the terms that Marilyn has used in the book.
Beth Sanders: Beautiful. Thank you, Ian.
Will Im going to pull you into this conversation at this point. I'm curious, as we are
describing these roles, about your take on how the interrelationship of roles works,
because I understand that's an area of interest for you.
Will Varey: Thanks for the question Beth. I was listening to Ian describe the landscape of
the city, Im recalling how we see different cities, and when listening to Buzz Holling's
prerecorded [Prologue] talk, we are looking for an inspiration for a resilient city. One of
the things we might think about is different levels, and also different time cycles, different
temporal cycles.
We see conformity enforcers in different cycles, at different levels in the complexity of a
city.

For example I live in a city within a larger city - about 65,000 people within 1.2 million
people. My local city has a history, a bureaucracy, it has short distance commuters and in
the larger city it has larger things, relationships, and larger policies. We have two levels of
conformity enforcers. We have diversity generators at two levels: some of my colleagues
and friends work in community hubs and sustainable innovation hubs, but locally, and
then also with the larger city diversity generation in sustainability at a policy level. And
the resource allocators are blended between two. Just a simple example - one of the roles I
see enabling emergences, particularly harmonized emergences at cross-scale levels, is
around communication between these different roles, between these different levels.
Beth Sanders: Will, how does that take place?
Will Varey: This is the meshworking. As Marilyn points in her book, information is largely
data, we are also operating in formation - all of our different roles and functions on
different levels in cycles of a system. And mostly it's because of information silos and
information stove pipes, but perhaps more information, wetlands, ponds, if you like. So
that in the ecology of thought everyone is doing what they need to be doing - the question
is; how do they link up in the larger scale system? There are roles in systems to those
people that are facilitating the conversations between all of those parts of the ecology.
Largely it involves generating the connecting information flows, which is what ultimately
keeps the complex system resilient, and a lot of face-to-face meetings, large collective
groups, specifically designed around topics that are common to all. An example is water
sustainability - it's a critical issue in most parts of the worlds but, not so much in Canada
but for most other parts of the world this is the honey and the pollen of the hive, without
that the hive begins to stress and suffer.
Beth Sanders: So, when you talk about generating connections for information flows, how
do you design for that?
Will Varey: First, I'm going to use a practical example, as this is the main focus of this
session. What might be a big issue in large scale cities with water stress is water recycling.
Usually we harvest water from somewhere, in most parts of the world that would be from
subterranean aquifers. We use it, pollute it and expel it into the ocean, where it becomes
unavailable.
Over a period of two or three hundred years we can use all the water in the aquifer quite
quickly, usually the last part of collapse comes very swiftly. In something like that, the
industrial users of water, the agricultural users of water, the domestic users of water , the
people who plan 50 years of watering for [infra]structures all need to get together to
develop a collective plan on how to manage sustainable futures at the city level. How you
do it - is you have to get them together and set a different question on a different agenda,
the one that might be enforcing conformity on a daily basis.
Beth Sanders: There is an interesting word which came out earlier today - when we were
chatting with Buzz Holling. Part of the conversation was about the need for people to have

really good island characteristics, and by that, what he was speaking about is people need
time for [being in] circle and work really well together, as if they were stranded on an
island. I'm playing with the metaphor a little bit... You need to be able to have relationship
such that you can withstand stress. The other way to look at these island characteristics is
that people of like-mind need to have an opportunity to circle up and be on an island,
separate from the world, figure out what they are going to do, and then leave the island
and go into the outer world and do what they need to do, but also have the resources to
come back to the island. Ian used to work as a planner on islands - Ian what's your take on
that metaphor in terms of how we organize ourselves in cities in the notion of island and
island work, and island time, maybe?
Ian Wight: I think islands can be quite a fruitful metaphor for folks. Ive actually seen
islands, talked about, very small islands the Isle of Eigg in Scotland became very famous
for community energy sustainability. It really did do a good job within its own setting and
then to its credit it became interested in how it could share its experience outwards. It
came out with a program called "Islands of Green". And "Islands of Green" - the way they
interpret it did not mean necessarily literal islands; those islands could be in our case city
blocks that could basically conceive themselves as an island that wanted to become
greener.
Im recalling that metaphor now and being impressed by it, how the experience of Isle of
Eigg, seeing these folks that are reaching out in those ways, it certainly has stayed with me.
I have a lot of history in trying to get my head around islands; I now live on an island again.
I'm aware of islands having, what I call... there is something about insularity that makes
autonomy an imperative as well. There is an individuality that comes with that. We are all
in it together. It's really a place where individuals can have their way.
I think islands can stress that angle too much and overlook the fact that they are part of
broader worlds. The way I'd like to think about the islands is an archipelago of
autonomies in a sea of interdependencies. That's where I was going listening to the
conversation this morning, when Buzz was talking about islands, from an integral
perspective especially and, from a complexity perspective, I wanted to go there. So I
wanted to go farther than a literal notion of islands. Literally they are the ideal container
or systems - that is where we start off with systems thinking. I think we have got to loosen
up that thinking, broaden it out, as well. That's my take on the island aspect.
Beth Sanders: Will, what's your thinking on playing around with this metaphor of island
and its relationship to our take on cities and even when we talk about the citys 40 pounds
of honey like a hive - that what's it's got to generate in a year, no more no less. What is the
equivalent for us?
Will Varey: I have a bias toward social capitalism, human capitals, in particular the
capitals that enabled future planning. In a description of a healthy city which Marilyn
mentions in her book - healthy cities can take that landscape view of the archipelago and

assess proactively where resources might need to be allocated. So there are many types of
honey, there is the raw nectar that's collected, pollen and the mixing of the pollen and the
honey and multiple other compounds. So, the 40 pounds of honey in a humans world is
really this capacity to see the resilience of the whole city. We can produce many other
things, we can produce GDP, traffic miles commuted, goods consumed, but if the
archipelagos as a whole isn't enhancing its region, it becomes like the hive starved [in and
despite]all its surrounding environment.
Beth Sanders: Super. I want to just check and see if Ian or Will, if either of you have any
questions of each other as we have this unique opportunity being here in a conversation
together.
Ian Wight: Certainly in some of the comments Will was making there is some resonance
for me - it might be worth exploring a little more, especially since our theme involves
emergence. It's actually interesting trying to think about what the city's 40 pounds of
honey is in that context. Will was taking it into an arena which has also occurred to me.
I've struggled for different ways of expressing it. When I was trying to think this one
through, what I came up with: I'm looking at the city, the honey is something that has to
come, but the city is the venue where it might be produced. I basically see the city as what
I call an extelligence generating organism. I know a lot of our concern in especially
Marilyn's concern in Integral City 1 is with particular discrete intelligences, but I have this
hunch that the emergent city its really going to be the future repository of the extelligence
to come.
Another way I found myself looking at it in another setting was: its almost the venue of
outing the heritance that is to come. I'm playing a lot with this word "to come". I think it's
because my sense is that the Integral City 2.0 would be very much about something that is
in service. Not simply to our current well-being and that is really important, but also its
going to be of service to our future well-becoming. I just wanted to put that out there into
the mix.
Beth Sanders: Will, with your take on emergence and your practices working with folks:
what ultimately is the city in service to?
Will Varey: I'm thinking about the different cities that I'm familiar with, and what their
commonality is. I remember in a conversation with Marilyn once, describing how cities
can have unique character, it has a particular sense of what thriving is, in the interest of
the people within it.
Perhaps the citys role is to create an island space where the fulfillment of human purpose
can occur. My focus as a sustainability practitioner is to see that we are able to continue to
the future, not to prescribe in the planning, the form of that, so the creativity and novelty
can create new histories. That's really going to ensure that there is enough capacity within
the city to enable its own emergences. So, I have a bias toward a potentiality to human

systems. My personal answer to the question is the potential for human city is an island
that enables potentials for the human thriving.
Beth Sanders: The question that leaves me with - and either of you feel free to jump in on
this. This conference is about articulating a new operating system for cities. We all are
feeling this bias toward the potential for humans. What does the new operating system
look like for cities that enables that and creates the conditions for our full potential?
Ian Wight: I think at the very least it's something beyond and past the operating system
that we've relied on in the past, which has been very much a linear system, for the
particular view of progress. It's a very top-balanced system, which has almost precluded a
lot of the healthy self-organizing, that we would want to see happening in a new operating
system.
I'm very aware in my field how much especially the systems maintenance folks are
involved in making rules to constrain the system. What I think we need to consider is - yes
we might still want to be in to making rules, but if we had ourselves thinking on rules and
working on rules which basically further enabled, even fostered more self-organizing,
then that would be a feature of the operating system which I would like to see developing
and that sort of shift of perspective around rule-making.
Beth Sanders: Thanks, Ian.
I want to check in with Eric. There are some questions which come from the audience and
I would love to give folks a chance to put those questions to both of you.
Eric Troth: There are a couple of things. Ian, you were talking about extelligence. Im just
curious if you can relate that extelligence, how that may be related to the collective
intelligence, a quality of hive mind?
Ian Wight: I think it is, that's a good way of putting it. We have to conceive it in terms of
the intelligence to come but from an emergence perspective, it's the intelligence that is
very much in prospect, it's very much potential.
I've ended up trying to think beyond the current system, which involves us trying to
capitalize on plurality of singular intelligences and that led me to an interesting thought
would city 2.0 actually involve a shift to singularity of composite extelligence? People that
know me, know that I like playing with terms. Extelligence, I feel, is something that merits
a lot more attention. It may be difficult to conceptualize, given just the weight of our
thinking around intelligences in the plural.
Extelligence would be something that would be embracing past and future, as well as the
past being of the experience that culture represents. Also trying to think about in term of
the future becoming and the city to me is whats going to be the most developed venue, or
organism for generating that? It's a good thing having an operating system that cultivates
that.

Eric Troth: Another question from the audience. You were talking about not too long ago
about the rules and way in which self-organizing somehow held back. Can you give some
examples of rules that we need to enable self-organizing?
Ian Wight: Ive got this perspective, I guess, where I got most of my intelligence on
emergence - from Steven Johnson's book of the same name. I was very impressed with
how he articulated some principles of emergence, how much he drew on Jane Jacobs work,
someone who was early on, very much into emergence, although was not called that at the
time.
I think you can see some examples in Jane Jacobs. She was coming from pointing to - I
guess, she was much very much against the official plans and rule-making getting so much
attention. She basically wanted to empower and enable much more literally the folks on
the street, on the sidewalk. And, appreciating that those interactions at that very scale
could be really informative, deserved to be used by the otherwise planners as the basis for
any planning. I have interpreted that, I've developed that through the concept of place
making. And I think what I take from Jane Jacobs work to the extent that she promoted
planning it was planning as place making by the people in and of the place. And in that
case they were, I guess, through self-organizing, they were making rules that were
working for them as a collectivity, literally on that street, on that sidewalk.
Beth Sanders: Ian, are there any rules in there which you can point us to?
Ian Wight: Not off the top my head. Maybe I can think about them if Will and yourself has
any hunches.
Beth Sanders: I'm going to check in with Will and see what your take is and if there are
any examples you can provide about rules that enable self-organizing.
Will Varey: As I was listening I have here next to me Chris Alexanders collected works on
Architecture, the elements of a living system and living system design to cities is a very
interesting metaphor for planning. You work with very rich social conversations in terms
of sense of place. I think that some of those rules are natural rules. If we create a living
center, a city can thrive around that, people come into that center to be renewed and then
go out into their communities or their local neighborhoods. You get a sense of identity of a
city, while not having this condensing in the centers, so that has too much gravity and
collapses. So, there are many rules. If you would take two [from] the list, they might be
paradoxical but when seen as a whole there is some sort of playfulness in that, more
interesting dance. So, Im wondering if those are some rules.
Ian Wight: I think these are good points. I would translate them in terms of mixing and
mashing, being, I guess, pro mixing and mashing in terms of our strategies rather than
segregating and spreading things out, would be in planning terms a distinction that might
be worthwhile. I'm really getting into diversity and density here. That's what cities are
very good at - coping with diversity and density at the same time. It translates into some
positive social consequences - cities are literally where strangers become neighbors.

Question: Will, could you comment on reflexive thought ecologies, generative learning
matrix and how that could be applied in a practical way? You have a PDF, posted on the
web-site. Just for future reference, can you give us a few ideas around that which can be
woven into the discussion if not fully, but at least as a conversation form.
Will Varey: Thanks for the invitation. You asked about the criticality of cities - one of the
things I see often that gets forgotten is that cities consume from their surrounding
environment. I remember reading some work on bee ecologies that bees through
pollination are actively managing the renewal of their surrounding environment. The
problem is when we use the metaphor of the hive we forget that a hive is actually
reflexively nurturing its surrounding environment.
Cities do have a habit of growing, consuming and polluting their surrounding area, their
water resources, their agriculture resources, their mineral resources and condensing it.
It's one of the topics that I hope will come up in this conference, that cities to maintain
their futures need not only consume or generate from within but also manage its external
environment. And then this archipelago as [a thought ecology] - it's the connection
between cities, which I know, Beth that you are thinking about, having this overview of
this entire conference. It comes that a reflexive thought ecology is really about learning
that a city can go through in terms of it's thought not just about its intelligence as
individuals and its extelligences between all of its functions, but then how does it relate to
its external environment, and that includes other cities as part of their environment. That
would be a short overview of that area of work and research.
Beth Sanders: Thank you Will, that's juicy.
Shanti: Hello! My question relates to the islands metaphor. In my opinion, the island
metaphor in relation to cities isn't so terribly helpful because the classical island metaphor
has to do with a completely closed system, and cities by their very nature are open
systems and never really will become a closed system, unless they become something
totally different than what they are and what I think were envisioning them to be. At the
eco-village where I live we have a mixture of an open and closed system and by no means I
or where I live have any answers as far as cities, but I see the cutting edge being more
towards a combination of a closed and open system. And the island metaphor does not
work so well for cities. Im wondering what both of you think of that. Thank you very
much!
Beth: Thanks, Shanti! I think Shanti is giving us a mission to find a better metaphor. Do
you know of one or maybe the hive is it?
Will: I appreciate the question. Through a lot of the distinctions that I work on Im
realizing that living entities tend to be operationally open while being functionally closed.
You can identify them as discrete. I've been on a tropical island, I used to live and travel in
Indonesia. Things are continuously washing up on the shore line. Islands are connected
usually in coral reef systems of migrations under the sea. They are surrounded by currents,

weather patterns. And the reason is they have diversity but connectivity in terms of their
novelty and the generation. And perhaps one of the things we are doing in this conference
is in the many islands of our community of thoughts we are connecting up the archipelago
of ideas of extelligence and place making and thought ecologies. Yes, the island metaphor
can work as long as we are realistic, rather than view it as a static map, they are very, very
dynamic open systems.
Ian Wight: I'm not sure. I think islands are a very systems friendly metaphor, but in an
integral systems perspective it has to be loosened up. In terms of what an alternative
metaphor might be, I've just suggested we have to play with more complexity. Looking at
islands as classic autonomies, it might serve us to try get our heads around a notion of
cities involving an archipelago of autonomies in the sea of interdependencies, in Will's
terms that would be territorial autonomies in a sea of mainly functional
interdependencies. Basically the two are operating together.
Ideally we need really excellent communications between the representatives, those
favoring one over the other. I think I see islands... I wouldn't spend a lot of time perusing
that metaphor, but I think it's a good base to take off from, to explore what a better
metaphor might be for an emergent city 2.0.
Beth Sanders: What strikes me when I'm listening to you Ian and Will is we, behind the
scenes as interviewers have a script, which we are operating from to make sure there is
some consistency, and of course the theme for the week is Planet of Cities. We had a slip
when we wrote in the script "City of Planets", so we were having a chuckle about that. I
wonder if what we have now is Cities of Islands and we can flip the metaphor around
maybe that [would work]?
Shanti: Thank you! The only tiny follow up to that question - I do realize that in nature
islands aren't really closed systems, but they are almost completely closed systems, at
least they were before the modern industrial age. And the city is such a massive kind of
like resource sink... you can never feed all the people in the city just within the city limits.
That's all. Thank you for those excellent answers and an excellent call!
Question from Melissa: How do you get self-organized groups to work with and not butt
heads with local governments?
Ian Wight: We are assuming that these local governments are resistant to what these self-
organizing interests might be pursuing. I dont know if it is about the self-organization or
if we have a clash of agendas, maybe we have a clash of the value sets, that actually
characterize the different organizing structures that I tried to lay out at the beginning. It
would certainly help if this operating system we are talking about was integrally informed,
and it would have an opportunity to get what the local government in this case and groups
that are interested in a different outcome may be getting what values they may share, that
could be built on. I think it goes to working at communications that are sensitive to the
fact that there will be different values in play. It could see that there is a lot of clashes,

especially if we are in this first-tier set of organizing structures. I don't have any magic
bullets, other that I feel there is a need to look for what the interest is shared in common,
and in this case it might be that they would recognize they share in common a valued
literal common place. And if they probe further through the differences they might find
that they have a common interest in a superordinate goal around their communities well-
being. That's may be a little simplistic, but actually I would call myself an advocate of
rethinking planning as place making, and that involves well-being by design. I would look
at the situations like that as an opportunity to cultivate some place making in service of
well-being.
Beth Sanders: Will, Im wondering about Melissa's question about how to get self-
organized groups to work with and not butt head with local government. I wondering how
the different roles of folks in the city that we touched in the beginning of the talk fit in. The
diversity generators and the conformity enforcers, maybe that comes in the mix here?
What's your observation?
Will Varey: Thanks for the question. I'm fortunate, living in the area where I get to see
this work. Simple principles of sociocracy where at each level of organization people are
represented partially across-levels; this is cross-level integration. I think its so important
in that the communication makes us to see resilience for example, in my local area a city of
65,000 within a bigger city. My local community gardener is down the road, one of the
people who are invited is on the city board, and he was elected as a city councilor, a
sustainability practitioner. They have an influence in council planning. Some other people
on that council represent the state government, a community of inquiry into the future of
resilient cities.
Often self-organizing groups will come together around an opposition, a lack or an
absence that is not being picked up by local government. The funny thing about these
groups is that they involve people who live near parks and act in community. Usually we
find these interests not so much oppositional, but contributive.
One of the things that tip the balance practically is when a self-organizing community
group around the absence realizes they are actually providing an important service to the
city. Suddenly the local government sees them in another light. Oh here is a group that is
self-funding. What can we do to support the space around them and then link that to the
wider policies? So often a shift in stance or shift in mind can change the nature of the
emergence across all of these levels in a city. I have seen it happen - it does take a period
of years and a short period of persistence. We are talking 130 years of history of reversal
that transition into the next 100 years thats what I enjoy in my work.
Eric: We are going to go into the breakout groups. We have the following question for
breakouts: How does thinking about city as a hive or an island help you generate new
ways of thinking about problems in the city?
[Breakout groups]

Eric Troth: A question for our guests and Beth - what did you hear that opens new doors
and shifts the way we think about the new capacities for the future of the cities?
Beth Sanders: I got the opportunity to listen into a conversation with Melissa who asked
the question about self-organizing groups dealing with city councils. We got a little bit
more details: when you are in city council chamber and folks show up, it gets really hot,
are there other ways ahead of that to make the things a little easier? The conversation was
about the integration and future integration of technology and culture, and how we can
self-organize ourselves and our emotions and our anger and self police it long before we
show up in city council. I'll stop there Will do you have something to add?
Will Varey: So, just adding to that - the link to this is the generational aspect, if we have
the municipality where 10 per cent of the population is over 85 and 15per cent of the
population are under 25 - the future city will need to find web 3.0 facilitation for this
meshing of the generations. That is the theme that comes after.
Beth Sanders: Ian, what did you hear and what struck you?
Ian Wight: We took a direction around about hive and islands as metaphors. I think we've
a range of opinions on it. One of the discussions felt this metaphor even locks us out, but
they could have value if we had them loosely. Another enjoyed both and could see the
potential for each of them, and actually came up as a very good distinction: she sees a hive
as a place of coming and going whereas she sees islands as places where she would land or
ground.
Another participant - neither [metaphor]was working for them and may be because the
discussion held yesterday around how consumptive the city is. That got us into a general
discussion around - yes there is a consumptive and exploitive aspects of the city but when
we think about it the city is our humanity creation that have got us here. And to get there
we've also been very generative, especially if thats seen as being in service to something
larger. We actually finished our discussion just opening up a kind of spiritual front. It was
clear that for several on the call that is a dimension we have to pull to the surface and hive
and island do not necessarily easily engage the spiritual.
Beth Sanders: I'm taking away some significant insights - there really is something in
playing around with words, to figure out what it is we are carving out here in terms of a
new cultural narrative as we talked about it yesterday with Bill Rees. Words get us there -
playing around with the word hive gets us there, playing around with the word island gets
us somewhere, and Im curious about what our next metaphor would be that can open up
to the spiritual front. I am curious about all of these relationships that are intermingling.
Thank you Will for bringing your insight about those relationships, and thank you Ian for
bringing your new words for us to explore. Thank you very much to both of you for your
participation.
Ian Wight: I've doing some writing about place making and well-being, if folks would just
like to contact me if they have an interest I'll be happy to share that with them.

Will Varey: My work tends to move on periodically. The themes we've been talking today,
if people search for thought-ecologies, that will bring them to any material we've
discussed today thats relevant.
Eric Troth: Thank you all! A lot of great ideas are coming through!

1
What and where are we implementing living systems
intelligence?
Speaker: Dr. Elisabet Sahtouris
Host: Dr. Marilyn Hamilton, PhD

Dr. Elisabet Sahtouris is a Greek-American evolutionary biologist, futurist,
business consultant, event organizer and UN consultant on indigenous peoples.
She is a popular lecturer, television and radio personality, author of
EarthDance, Biology Revisioned co-authored with Willis Harman and A Walk
Through Time: From Stardust To Us. She has been invited to China by the
Chinese National Science Association, and consults with corporations and
government organizations in Australia, Brazil, and the United States. Elisabet
taught at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and MIT. She was a science writer for the
Horizon/Nova television series. She promotes a vision she believes will result in the
sustainable health and well-being of humanity within the larger living systems of Earth and
the cosmos. www.sahtouris.com
Marilyn Hamilton: You are so welcome to the conference. I have always been intrigued
that I describe cities as cells and you describe cells as cities.
Elisabet Sahtouris: One of the reasons I am especially interested in your work with cities
on the planet is that cities look so much like cells. Especially when youre up in an airplane
and you see cities by night or by day with a central hub like a nucleus and then spread out
with kind of pseudo-pods that move into their ecosystems around them.
I have always seen cities as cells and I know that cells are absolutely the most important
life form of our planet and the reason I say that is that early in the planets history, in fact
for the first half of evolution, there were nothing but singles cells and they were bacterial
cells or the ancient bacteria and now they are called the archaea.
These bacteria had the earth completely to themselves and did something very amazing
about half way through their life cycle, in a sense, as a specieswe cant actually speciate
bacteria because one of the technologies they invented was the first world wide web and it
was that web of the information we know as DNA exchange. To this day any bacterium can
exchange DNA messages with any other bacterium on earth. That was all invented in the
first half of evolution when there were no other creatures on this planet.
So all species it turns out now have life cycles in which basically they have a juvenile phase
and a mature phase. In the juvenile phase they get into some very hostile competition very
much like what you learned in Darwinian evolution and they are very creative about their
hostilities. They invent technologies like electric motors that are over 90 per cent efficient
which is something we cant even dream of yet in our human made motors.
Youll notice that I draw all these parallels between bacteria and humans because we
actually are more like those ancient bacterial ancestors of ours than any other species in
between them and us. And we, as Lewis Thomas a scientific essayist once quipped, may be
giant taxis the bacteria invented to get around in safely. But back to their story on their
own I am going to tell you that 90 per cent of the DNA in your body is in the bacteria that
rides in your gut and on your skin and recently we found out they run most of your
immune system, they digest your food, they do all sorts of wonderful things for you. I want
you to develop a friendly attitude toward bacteria; the vast majority of them are friendly.
Now, back to their original story. They had this long juvenile phase of invading each other
and causing problems on earth. They became so successful and so prolific that they coated
the whole early earth and eventually they ate up all the free food in the form of sugars and
acids that had formed naturally and caused a global hunger problem. Which they then
solved by inventing photosynthesis which is a way of making food from what was left
sunlight, water, and minerals and then went on to cause a global pollution problem, and I
wont go into more details but they solved that one too. So those are two things for us to
remember as humans.
The most exciting part of their life cycle I want to talk about is when they formed the
equivalent of our cities. And it was a division of labor, a central hub, where all the
participants with different bacteria lifestyles gave up some of their DNA information into a
kind of library nucleus and that became the hub of the cell from where instructions went
out and information went in and resources were used all the things cities do.
The city itself the whole cell - what we are made of - invented by ancient bacteria - are
very much like cities and in our own bodies those cells are as complex as large cities. I will
just mention two things about them to give you an idea. Every cell in your body (and there
are 100 trillion of them) has about a thousand banks giving out free money, and about
30,000 recycling centers that are kind of like our chipper machines except that the ones in
your cells do the equivalent of putting a dead tree into a chipper machine and getting a
live tree out the other end. It is way beyond our technology.
Your body is an amazing collection of a hundred trillion city cells working in harmony.
That is where my big optimism comes from. We can do it if that many entities, the
complexity of large cities, can work in complete harmony with each other - surely we can
find out a way to network the cities of our planet into a harmonious network that can live
sustainably.
So just a little bit more before I stop on this background biology. Those large cells, the
equivalent of cities - when bacteria invented them, now coexisted as entities in their own
right with the bacteria that was still free living. That took two billion years before those
city cells were invented. For another billion years - because those big city cells were new
on the planet they - they had to go through their own juvenile phase and get in to all the
predatory acquisition of resources and hostility against each other and stuff before they
formed their version of a collective - the multi-cell creature. Then we go on the biology
you learned about evolution as it was taught to you in school. But remember that the
Darwinian Phase is only the juvenile phase. Then they can grow up to a point where
species figure out that it is cheaper (meaning it takes less energy) to feed your enemy than
to kill them.
That is something that we need to learn about today in our world - that it takes less energy,
less money to make friends than to maintain enmity or kill off your enemies. Thats a big
lesson that we need to learn because we humans are right, in that adolescence crisis stage
where we brought these problems of hunger and pollution and you know peak oil and
climate change (all these things we know about) upon ourselves. And now we have to
learn how to grow up, cooperate, network our cities - which is half the population of the
planet. That is where we are. This is the most exciting time because the bigger the
challenges to us are, the greater the opportunities for our mature cooperation.
I live on the island of Majorca in Spain. Most of our population is in one city called Palma.
We have a big airport. We have 1 million people living in the city. The rest of our island
which is most of it, is therefore, much less populated and would have the capacity for
actually feeding everyone on this island. But we are in an addiction to mass tourism that
has prevented that from happening - again as it has happened before in the history of the
island - not so long ago.
I thought you would like to know that I am speaking from a place where there is a very big
important city and yet also a beautiful ecosystem around it. Thanks Marilyn.
Marilyn Hamilton: Elisabet, I love what you just framed for use. Both through the
evolutionary biology of our ancestors which are in fact alive in us as we are walking
around, but you also have picked up some beautiful threads from what we have heard in
the last couple of days. The idea that we are in a stage of the human species where you are
asking us to grow up - I think this conference is even starting at a wake up stage. My call is
to wake up, grow up, and take responsibility for ourselves. (But we can get there and go
there in a few more minutes.)
The other thing you just mentioned about being on an island. Yesterday we heard from Dr.
Buzz Holling who also lives on an island now, on Vancouver Island on the west coast of
Canada. He said there is something very special about people on an island. That when he is
looking for experiments and for people to associate and people who have the qualities that
he would like to be on an island with these kind of people have a special way of looking
at the world. So thinking of you in Mallorca now, we on the west coast of North America,
in the morning, while you are in your early evening. It is another way of thinking about
this Planet of Cities that is interconnected in the kinds of ways that you are telling us that
at a fractal level, cells are interconnected.
I know that one of the ways I was attracted to your work was when I started to read it and
thought that you described a cell as a city. At that point there was a lot of sketching and
notating on the margin of the book!! I have been thinking about the city as the living
system. So I was so reassured that I wasnt off base - [when I read your work] I realized
that you had been thinking about it from the same perspective. I too fly and look down on
cities and I saw them, especially at night, where you can see the energy of the lights alive,
that they were living systems.
I wonder if you could just take us further along this trajectory of evolutionary biology. Tell
us a little bit more around not just the cell, but what are the characteristics of living
systems that you come to observe because you look at them in so many levels of scale?
Elisabet Sahtouris: Yes it is just so wonderful that we can find guidance in nature. The
ancient Greeks called science Philo Sophia meaning lovers of wisdom. And the whole point
of science for them was to study nature in order to find guidance for human affairs. And
that is exactly why I went into science. Not all my colleagues agreed that that was what
science was about. But Ive always seen it as, if we could just understand nature, then we
could see where it is possible for us to go and draw on the experience of so many species
that have gone through what I have discovered as this wonderful maturation process.
Now in my story of how things are in this universe it is the living universe. Its a conscious
universe. Humans have never had any experience outside of their consciousness so all of
our models of nature are built within the human consciousness. I think it is important to
recognize that. Also to recognize that science can be built on very different stories.
Western science was built on the story of a non-living meaningless purposeless universe
that came together based on accidental events in a purely physical energy universe
without meaning or life and somehow life magically evolved within that configuration.
There are other older sciences on the planet that started with very different assumptions.
It is not possible to have a science without a set of cultural beliefs because you cannot
make theory about nothing. You have to make a theory about something. So you need a
story. I was very interested that on the first day of your conference Bill Rees was talking
about [the idea] that we need a new cultural narrative. It reminded me of when Joseph
Campbell, the great mythologer, before he died - which was I think now 20 years ago - he
called for a new myth for the whole planet. He had studied all these different cultural
myths. Many of them are about maturation cycles and heroism and facing challenges and
all those things. So to me the new narrative comes right out of biology showing us that we
creatures of this planet, perfectly natural, have it in our DNA not just to compete with each
other but to cooperate just as well.
Not only can we draw on the experience of all these ancient bacteria and all these other
species that arose - and some of them fell out that never got past the juvenile stage, that
went extinct and never matured (thats always an option). That we can also draw right on
our own bodies, that is amazing. To know that in early human history and the tribal level
we already went through this maturation process when tribes got together and formed
the first cities.
Archaeologist are only now finding and digging up these ancient cities. There is one big
one in the Middle East. There is one on the Orkney Island of Northern England. There is
one in the Amazon where Amazons got together and formed these incredible network
cities. So we know that humans have already done this once. But just as the nucleated cells
when formed were the new entity that had to go through its own maturation [cycle], so
did cities. Those ancient cities, some of which are thousands of years older than even
formations like Stonehenge. They had to go through their own juvenile phase and what
did they do? They became empire builders. That is the competitive phase.
So now for about 6,000 years, we humans have been in this empire building mode where
first they actually were ruled by emperors and then much later they were ruled by nation
states which had the British Empire and the Dutch Empire, the Portuguese Empire . Now
it is corporate empires because so many corporations, now, are economically larger than
whole nations. So we have gone through this cycle once before as humans. So that is why
we find every time there is a natural disaster, the most recent one being like [the tsunami
and nuclear disaster in] Fukushima [Japan]. That was a combination of a natural disaster
and a manmade one because it was a meltdown of the nuclear plant.
You found people 100 per cent cooperative without training when that disaster happened.
That is a real demonstration that it is just as much in our blood and bones and DNA and
protein and everything else that we know how to do this. We are not a purely Darwinian
species. We are not just in an endless struggle against scarcity in a universe that is being
run down by entropy. My universe isnt running down. It is a self-creating living universe
that keeps replenishing itself in every split second.
Other sciences in India were based on the idea that the universe is consciousness.
Everything in the material world arises within that consciousness and it is still conscious.
Then Islamic science has a creation of a living universe where self-creating living systems
happen all the time. The Koran tells you that you need to study those. So those are other
sciences that I think should be on an equal par with western science. Not replacing it in a
paradigm shift. But rather working side-by-side coming from university hubs and the
cities of the world.
It is something that the cities of the world could get together and talk about - what is the
best narrative for us as humans today? What is the story of cities in biological terms as
well as in human historical terms? So there is so much that could be done here. Could the
cities promote cooperative dialogue among their universities? Recognizing, lets say if they
are in Islam, or if they are in India, that they could be teaching their own cultural science
side-by-side with western science and having friendly dialogues from city to city from
university to university around the world.
I keep going back to [the idea that] cities are a much more natural [phenomenon] than
nations are. Nations draw artificial boundaries. Cities tend to have not so artificial
boundaries. At least at one time they were built so much like cells; they had cell walls
around them. But eventually we dropped those walls and we got much more like living
cells.
I have been looking at what are the features of healthy living systems? How can we apply
those ideas, those features of systems whether they are cells or they are organisms or
whether they are ecosystems or whether they are living planets, they all operate by the
same principles. I dont particularly like the concept of natural laws. I think self organizing
living systems develop their own habits and regularities. They learn what works and what
doesnt work. So I call them the features of living systems that you always run into no
matter how big or small that living system is. Is that where you would like to go next
Marilyn? Would you like to make some comments on what I have already said in the
meantime?
Marilyn Hamilton: I just would like to comment on your way of integrating the narrative
of the city with the science of the city. I think it is really intriguing. You are setting us up
for conversations that we will have over next week and the week following. You
mentioned Joseph Campbell and we will have Jean Houston, who was one of his students,
to help us explore a new narrative of the city. What I also think you brought forward in a
beautiful and inspiring way was that the narratives already existing in multiple cultures.
And how those actually do set up the function of how even science is approached in those
cultures. That gives me another way of picturing the microcosm of the city. Our large cities
these days are so much actually a microcosm of all the cultures in the world. So in some
ways the story you were telling us about cells - the [adolescence]stage that we are at now.
The entire world has come into our cities and were not quite sure (in the cities) how to
actually govern ourselves. We have not figured out the principles that we need to have a
healthy vibrant city. We are still kind of clashing and having the rogue wars within our city
streets. I am very curious about what you have noticed in look at in looking at healthy
living systems - what features or principles you have come up with, that we might learn
from for cities?
Elisabet Sahtouris: I would be glad to do that. Marilyn do our participants have access to
the features of Healthy Living Systems? (See Endnote (1)).
Marilyn Hamilton: That is up on our website or will be up after this session. Elisabet has
brought us a list of the Healthy Living Systems. They are reproduced in Endnote (1). I think
we can assume that not everyone has them in front of them.
Elisabet Sahtouris: Okay that is fine. The first principal is the principal of self-creation.
I noticed that you have already talked about how cities create themselves. Science didnt
even have a definition of life for a long time. The chemists thought the biologists had it.
The biologist thought the chemists had it. No one actually had a good definition of life until
two Chilean scientists came up with concept of autopoiesis (auto poiesies in Greek)
which literally mean self-creation. The definition went: a living entity is one that
continually creates itself in relation to its surroundings. You have also talked about the
interface of cities with their ecosystems. So cities self-create and you have already covered
that one.
The second one is easy. It is complexity. There is always the diversity of parts. Nature
doesnt like monocultures. Humans invented monocultures. One of the things that is
wonderful about cities is that cities still have their characteristics even though in our age
of mechanism and our wanting to make everything alike and copying and manufacturing
things so that they all have Hilton Hotels and they all have certain things that are very
similar around the globe, they still do have their own characteristics - especially in their
older centers and things wherever they have been preserved. So complexity is absolutely
necessary to a living system and all cities as we know really show that. You can never have
a city where everyone is doing the same job where it is like a field of wheat where all the
plants are almost identical. Cities will always necessarily have complexity.
So there are two features that are built in already in cities. And so is the third one. Because
the third principle is the principle of being embedded in larger entities and depending on
them, we call this holarchy. Because every entity in our world that is reasonably
identifiable by itself is called a Holon and they are always embedded within larger systems.
In your body you have particles in atoms, atoms in molecules, molecules in cells, cells in
organs, and organs in the organ system. So you have quite a lot of steps already within
your own body and then you are within a family, within a community, within an
ecosystem, within a city, possibly within a nation, within a continent, within a planet
within a solar system, and so on all the way up to the universe. So that is [how]
embeddings [evolve].
So already we have the first three features which every city shows. The fourth one, I call
autognosis which means self-knowledge, self reflexivity. Now that one may be the case in
some cities - maybe it is partly the case in all cities - but probably not very much so in old
cities. Because it implies that all the parts of the city know themselves in relation to the
whole. That is more likely in a city than in a nation. But it is something that can always be
improved, for cities to become more transparent to themselves. The way we talk about
transparency coming into our culture now. And that is big. We had corporations exposed
and their secrets were let out. And then religions started getting their secrets let out. And
then governments (the wiki leaks) started getting their secrets let out. In the healthy
future we want as much transparency as possible. The more everyone knows about how
their entities in which they live, their cities, and their ecosystems [the better].
Nature is always transparent. Things in nature do know each other and know their roles
or it would never work. The cells in your body not only know themselves in all their
complexities, but they know what every other cell is doing in that body. They know their
role in relation to the whole. But our kind of consciences, which evolved more recently,
have blocked out so much information in order to think the way we do, within the time-
space world. To work with linear time even though we have never had an experience
outside of now. So we have to re-learn this transparency because we keep blocking out so
much and we are able to keep secrets. And that is a good thing to end us as much as
possible in the city.
So the next one, the fifth one, is self-regulation or maintenance or what I call autonomics
or self-rule in a city. That is about how do we elect our city officials? How do all the
organizations, the businesses and the families within a system as complex as the city
relate to each other? How much do they have to do with the governance as a whole? Is that
set up so that everyone has access to City Hall? There were some nice examples in the 70s
when small communities, small cities, started making themselves more transparent and
expanding their city halls, allowing people in on more meetings, having more of the people
join into organizations that had regular communications with City Hall and so one. So that
is a good one to work on.
Then the sixth one is the ability to respond to both internal and external stresses. That
again is one that is extremely important to work on nowadays because the stresses are
getting greater. As these huge challenges come upon us with climate change that within
the next three to five years is going to get a whole lot more dramatic. We have had a kind
of lull, but we are going to kick in a popcorn-effect. We are going to have to figure out how
we recover from disasters; how we help each other recover from disasters even more than
we have up until now. How do we withstand those stresses? How do we make sure that
each city has as much a self-sufficient food base around it as possible? How do we make
sure [it has]as much of a self sufficient energy system around it as possible? How can its
suburbs be organized? How can we build more city gardens, more rooftop gardens, more
rooftop windmills? All of those things that will make any city more resilient through its
ability to respond to stress and other changes?
Then number seven (and we are almost halfway through) is the input-output exchange of
matter-energy-information with the other Holons. Meaning, with its internal groups and
its external environment, its suburbs, its larger nature around it. If we start to look at that
input-output exchange of matter, energy, and information with other Holons, we will see
more about how we can build responsibility.
Lets say that you want to look at what is all the matter that comes into your city? How is
the energy supplied in your city? How are information streams brought into your city?
What do you put out as information, as energy, as matter? Are you producing more energy
in the city than you need? Can you feed a larger grid with the energy you are producing?
You can look at the entity within your city as a living system by taking these principles and
seeing how they apply. If we are going to exchange with other Holons, these 16 principles
have been applied, for instance, in the European communitys cross-border compliance
networking system. Also, these 16 principles have been applied by some businesses. So
you might know a business in your city that would get interested in seeing how much like
a living system it is, by looking at how many of these features show up in that business? I
will tell you there are a lot of businesses in which very few of them show up. But then you
can pick some to work on. You wont be able to change them all at once. But you can pick
some to work on.
Marilyn Hamilton: May I just interrupt you for a moment Elisabet? I just wanted to ask a
question. I am looking at our time and I am aware that since we will have this on the
website that perhaps the other very important principles, we might have to defer for a
further conversation. I have some questions coming in from the audience. If you are open
to it, we will tantalize them with the first seven principles that you have just given us in a
way that ties in beautifully with what we have been looking at in the first day when we
were looking at ecosphere intelligence and yesterday when we were looking at emergence
and resilience intelligences.
One of the questions I have here goes back to our tribal connection with radical optimists.
The question related to the crisis that the cells underwent. The question was - is that
related to a pollution crisis? Was it related to what to do with too much oxygen? The
question was also brought into a landing spot related to all these crises we face now - why
do you think we can afford to be optimistic? What is telling our living system that we
actually have a basis for not hunkering down and going into denial and worrying about the
chaos? What is your suggestion on how we approach this?
Elisabet Sahtouris: On the question about the oxygen crisis, that is exactly how the
ancient bacteria created the pollution problem. Because, in solving the hunger problem
inventing photosynthesis, the out-gas of photosynthesis, as you all know, I think, is oxygen.
And oxygen was an extremely corrosive gas that was not present in great quantities in the
atmosphere. Because the photo synthesizers (the food producers) were so successful, they
expanded their numbers hugely by created food for themselves and in some cases for
other bacteria as it turned out. The oxygen was absorbed by the seas, by the land. That is
why you see these banded iron formations. Iron when it oxidizes rusts. So the red soils of
the planet were created by those ancient bacteria in the pollution phase. Then it
eventually piled up in the atmosphere to the point where it is about 21 per cent now. Then
it opened the opportunity for developing yet another lifestyle in which the oxygen was
used to breathe literally. [An opportunity emerged] to become breathers. Everything since
then in nature, in the animal kingdom, became breathers. The animals and the plants
evolved to beautifully complement each other with the one producing the oxygen the
other needed and the other one producing the carbon dioxide that the first needed. This is
the beautiful reciprocity in nature.
Nature is full of these wonderful reciprocities. For example, we are always as humans
doing these either-or things. We think you have to be either a radical or a conservative
politically. In nature, nature is profoundly conservative with things that work well and
radically creative with the things that dont work anymore. So imagine our political
system instead of trying to kill each other off as in the US election campaigns at present.
Imagine that our government said that the radicals and the progressives, or the
progressives and the conservatives, were going to work in complete harmony and
cooperation, dividing up the things that needed doing between what needed protection
and what needed change and then helping each other on both. That would be the mature
thing, the mature way that your body works. We can do that. It is these kinds of things that
give me such hope. If we look at nature and we see that crises every bit as large as those
that we are creating now were created by the ancient bacteria, that had no benefit of
brains, then surely we can solve these problems, especially since there are so many
bacteria inside us. We should be able to get this thing right. So I almost just think it is
exciting to be an adolescent species. That is the brink of maturity. That is when you get
over the childish thing. Get over the hostile competition and behave in new ways.
Let me tell you a wonderful little experience I had in China. I was taken to a basketball
game there. Fortunately, it was played exactly like our basketball game so I knew exactly
what was going on and what the rules of the game were. But the Chinese guide next to me,
when he cheered for the first basket, I knew who his team was right? Except when the
next basket was made he leaped up and cheered with the same enthusiasm. And he kept
doing this. I got our interpreter to ask, Which team is yours? He looked at me in
complete puzzlement. Eventually he explained to me. No the reason you put two teams
against each other is to drive excellence. We cheer the excellence. We cheer all the baskets.
And at the end of the game the team with the most points takes the other team out for
dinner to thank them for driving them to so much excellence.
Now imagine our children in our city schools all learning their sports from that framework,
that context. The game is the same and the context is the opposite. It is a friendly
competition now not a hostile one. Now there is a principle they can learn in nature that
there is loads of friendly competition.
Even predator-prey species are in a very tightly woven cooperative relationship where
each of them is keeping the other one healthy. The predator species keeps the prey species
healthy by only taking the weak. And the prey species is feeding the predator species as is
obvious. The other side isnt as obvious. But no predator species ever goes for the big
bucks. It only takes out the weakest members and that keeps the species healthy.
We can learn so many things from nature. We can see that this Darwinian story is totally
incomplete. If we look around the planet now we can find loads of instances of
cooperation. From the United Nations, we can exchange money across all cultures and
languages now through our cards. In your body you never have to repay your debit or
credit cards that are given out by the bank. In our world you still do. Nevertheless it was
designed by Dee Hock Visa as a cooperative system of exchange across languages and
cultures. We find more frequent World Parliaments and religion. We find science projects
that are cooperating in international space stations. There are over a million NGOs as Paul
Hawken [in Blessed Unrest] has pointed out, most of them cooperating to build better
worlds in some way; whether they are cleaning rivers or doing conferences or doing
microfinance to build up local cultural or planting trees or whatever. So the world is full of
examples of how we are moving directly into the cooperative mode. But the media tends
to be owned by the corporate world which is still in the juvenile competitive phase.
So if you research ethical markets, you will find that just in the past years we have got
three trillion dollars worth of investments in green companies. More and more companies
are trying to behave better socially. Have better relations within. Which to me means
more functioning more like a living system. They are worried more about how do the
recycle things. I could go on all day about the amount of cooperation that we are seeing in
the world.
So much of the sources [for this good news] like Utne Reader and Yes magazine - they are
all free on-line. You can read all these articles. You can just Google the cooperative
ventures and easily find that you can get any kind of information you need today about
how to make transitions and how to build ecologically sound unity. How to grow your own
food? It is all there for us to find so easily. The internet by the way is the largest self-
organizing living system on the planet. Fortunately no government yet has figured out
how to control it.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is a saving grace in my opinion as well. I would say that horse
has bolted out of the barn door and they are not going to get it back in my opinion..
Thank you, Elisabet, so much for joining us.

Endnotes:

(1) 16 Features of Healthy Living Systems (Sahtouris)
1. Self-creation (autopoiesis)
2. Complexity (diversity of parts)
3. Embeddedness in larger holons and dependence on
them (holarchy)
4. Self-reflexivity (autognosis/self-knowledge)
5. Self-regulation/maintenance (autonomics)
6. Response ability to internal and external stress or
other change
7. Input/output exchange of matter/energy/information
with other holons
8. Transformation of matter/energy/information
9. Empowerment/employment of all component parts
10. Communications among all parts
11. Coordination of parts and functions
12. Balance of Interests negotiated among parts, whole,
and embedding holarchy
13. Reciprocity of parts in mutual contribution and
assistance
14. Efficiency balanced by Resilience
15. Conservation of what works well
16. Creative change of what does not work well

(2) Sahtouris, E. (2010). Celebrating Crisis: Towards a Culture of Cooperation A New Renaissance:
Transforming Science, Spirit & Society, . London: Floris Books.

1

What and where are we implementing living systems intelligence?
Speakers: Darcy Riddell and George Pr
Host: David Faber
September 6, 2012
Darcy Riddell lives in Vancouver, Canada, where she develops leadership
training and capacity-building programs for non-profit organizations
(previously for Hollyhock Leadership Institute, and now for Drishti.) She
is also a strategic consultant on environmental campaigns
(www.ForestEthics.org). Her current focal points include applying
integral theory to forest conservation issues on Canadas west coast, and
leading groups of inquiry for activists connecting spirituality and social change. She is
most passionate about addressing the worlds pressing ecological and social problems
with emerging second tier frameworks, and is working to build a community of similar
practitioners. She has a M.A. Philosophy and Religion (Philosophy, Cosmology and
Consciousness), California Institute of Integral Studies and a B.Sc. Geography/
Environmental Studies, University of Victoria. She is currently completing a PhD in the
School of Social Innovation at Waterloo University, Canada.
George Pr is an evolutionary mentor, social architect, and strategic
learning partner to visionary leaders and changemakers in local, national,
and international government bodies, business, and civil society. A
pioneer of the field of collective intelligence, knowledge ecology, and
collective wisdom, he facilitates transformation in self, systems, and
society. Former Research Fellow at the London School of Economics,
Senior Research Fellow at INSEAD, he is a Co-Director of the School of
Commoning and Fellow of Future Considerations. George is also the Chief Architect of the
Collective Intelligence Enhancement Lab of the International Society for Systems Sciences.
A community architect for global, multi-stakeholder events, he integrates electronic,
knowledge, and social process tools into a coherent, well-crafted whole of online and on-
site work sessions. Georges own lifes journey enabled him to combine European values
with American can do spirit and ancient wisdom traditions. He believes in learning from
natures designs for the simplicity that underlies complexity. He is a Hungarian-born
American, who lived in 7 countries, speaks 4 languages and, resides in London. He is the
author of over 100 articles published in 6 languages and co-author of several books.
David Faber: I would like to talk about with you, get your insights and further
understandings on living systems.
George Pr: Thank you David for the introduction and your questions. Well my starting
point is that none of the five big crises that Jan De Dood talked about yesterday, the water,
food, energy, finance and climate crises can be solved at the level of collective intelligence
that we have demonstrated so far. So maybe thats why we have in the centre of the
Integral City compass evolutionary intelligence; and maybe thats why Marilyn Hamilton
wrote: Evolutionary Intelligence is the capacity to transcend and include the intelligences
we currently demonstrate in order to allow new intelligences to emerge. So to fan that
emergence I would like to start co-exploring three important matters with you all who are
on this call, or who will listen to it later. The first is how the Integral City and the collective
intelligence frameworks can mesh and contribute jointly to the emergence of a new level
of intelligence and consciousness that is required to match the level of our global crises.
The second matter is why and how the learning city is a pivotal model and metaphor for
the contribution of systems intelligence to citus design; and finally the third is the
distinction of the virtual city and why our eLaboratory community needs to become better
at being one.
To start with the first let me state a well known fact: the vitality of any living system and
its capacity to evolve depends on the diversity of its sub-systems and how well they are
connected and communicating with each other. So if our cities as living systems want to
show their resilience, they need to increase first of all their cultural intelligence. Cultural
intelligence sits in the lower left quadrant of the four integral intelligences that Marilyn
wrote about in the Integral City book. Cultural intelligence represents the bee life of the
city, it is the beating heart of the human hive. In living systems, relationships are the
bonds that link identities and information. Relationships make exchanges possible. The
formation of relationships is central to the emergence of new patterns, new
intersubjective intelligence and new complexity.
We make sense and meaning of our world through relationships and conversations. The
quality of those relationships and conversations will define whether we can generate the
breakthroughs we need. It is a question that leads us to one of the three strategic
intelligences that Marilyn termed inquiry intelligence. Inquiry intelligence is about asking
good questions that reveal the meta-wisdom of the city. For example how can the city
discover its vision for its contribution to the planet? If you want to explore such big
questions you need to have the whole city in the conversation. The people, communities
and organizations making up the city need to develop the capacity to learn together. That
is because only together will they have the requisite variety needed in their thinking to
pass the evolutionary test of our times. Thats why I believe that the learning city is a
pivotal metaphor and model for what the city as a living system can contribute to city
design. By learning city I dont mean only a city of learners but also a city that learns. In
the first, a city of learners, cities take advantage of the opportunities that the city offers to
support their life-long learning. In the second, the city that learns, the collective social
body of the city has its collective memory, sensory and meaning making organs such as
processes and centers of collective intelligence. Those centers will be holistic learning
environments, open and inviting to people of all walks of life, and all our ways of learning.
When the city of learners type of initiative are powered up to realize their fullest potential
and become cities that learn, then they will become key drivers of the learning society. I
see that development not as a luxury, but as a condition of our planetary survival.
The third matter I wanted to talk about, engage, and co-explore with you is the distinction
of the virtual city, and why we need to become better at being one on the eLab platform.
The eLab city 2.0 community and the post-conference life has the potential to become a
virtual city that can experiment with increasing all sorts of collective intelligence. I
imagine various forms of co-evolving intelligences of place-based and virtual learning
cities. For example, direct connection with learning cities around the world, where we
could orchestrate synchronicities, collaborative learning processes focused on questions
that matter most, to the most of us. The current platform of the eLab was not designed to
support that kind of collaboration, but I believe that if enough of us become excited about
the shape that the globally interconnected learning cities can trigger, then they will be
able to make it happen.
These are my thoughts about the connection between cities as living systems and what are
the opportunities that city designers, activists and civil society can learn from moving the
edge of evolution. Moving the edge of our collective development and meeting the
challenges of the global crises. I will be open to any questions and I am very much
interested whether what I was talking about makes any sense, particularly the last part
about the virtual city and its connection with the potential of a network of globally
interconnected learning cities on the ground.
David: Thank you very much for that George. I do have a question here to start a bit of a
conversation as well, and it does relate to your third point of creating virtual learning
cities. I found that very fascinating in terms of how you described that. One of my personal
observations working in the municipal government for the past twenty years, is that even
within the organizations that exist within that city there is a lack of interconnectedness or
collaboration. There is very much a will or a wanting to be connected with other groups or
organizations that exist within that city, but there isnt a mechanism to be able to bring
them together, and I am wondering if you can share with us where you have seen
examples of groups coming together in a virtual learning environment.
George: The virtual learning environment is just an enabler and I wouldn't say that the
most important enabler. Without a virtual learning environment, of course, it would not
be possible to deal with the complexities of what we need to learn about cities and city
agencies and citizens who need to learn together. But the main enabler is the quality of
relationships, that is the communitys formation of learning commons, and commons is a
practice where people are self-organizing for creating the knowledge resources and other
resources essential to their livelihood. Once you have that kind of self-organizing
momentum across city agencies, across organizations that work in the city, NGOs and
private sector organizations, once people start discovering that none of us is as smart as
all of us, and want to benefit from the collective intelligence, wanting to create more
conversations that matter, then and only then, can the technology platform make a
difference.
David: Thank you George. From my perspective, I definitely have been in that type of
environment where you have had those moments in time where true collaboration takes
place, and as youre saying, outside of the system processes there is a space or a place that
is created where people can share their ideas that are brought together. I guess what I
have tended to notice is that who is accountable to bring people together, and maybe its
not accountability, but in Edmonton, for example, we have a structure called a community
league. A community league is a collection of individuals within a city, typically no larger
than ten or fifteen thousand people, and that community league works with that
community at the micro-scale. Where I see this connects up to happen are from the micro-
scale to the macro, to the larger city decision-making, and the impacts that the larger city
or the decisions that the larger city is making. I wonder how are we able to bridge those
going forward where you have groups, activist groups, or whomever within a city who are
able to sit down and perhaps talk with individuals who dont want to hear that.
George: One way of thinking about it is, what can we learn from new ways of managing
inter-organizational complexity. By new ways, I mean one of the examples that comes to
my mind is Holacracy, which is a way of decision making that goes beyond the command
and control or consensus alternative, and involves connecting with representatives from
the higher levels participating in meetings with activists, and vice versa. Representatives
of NGOs and activists are invited to represent truly the point of view of their
constituencies. Of course the whole thing can be bureaucratized, and you can have all
those representatives, but they may remain in a rather fictitious role without any power,
so what can make the difference, what can add the requisite power for creating more
power symmetry is transparency, is having all those meetings communicated widely
through social media, local and hyper-local social media, and also traditional media,
enlisting the support of journalists who care for the vibrancy of their cities to be present
with the intricacies of how the different layers in this conversation, how they can hear
each other better and work better together.
David: That brings up something you mentioned as you were going through your three
points and you have reinforced here in your answer, and that is of transparency, and I
wonder what role reporting back to citizens on what matters most. The outcomes of their
communities, how that plays into this. I have been involved in some work across Canada
and across the globe of putting in place a recording system where you are actually focused
on the outcomes of the community. Those outcomes are actually co-created with the
community, and there is then a reporting that then takes place back to citizens. I just
wonder how you close the loop. Is reporting a piece of this, George? Is that something that
the community then needs to seed, to build in that transparency?
George: Absolutely, so developing the issues list and issues monitoring that is an essential
part of the transparency. Again it is just the tracking issues and the response of the
authorities that itself may not be enough, but it is definitely an enabler. Just a couple of
days ago I came across the Commons for Europe, which is an initiative of the European
Commission in the context of which they are just like the code for America, very similar to
it. They are developing software applications that are fostering the self-organization of
citizens, and that kind of transparency, and one of them is an issues tracking software that
allows citizens to follow what is happening with the priorities of issues that they
established.
David: In terms of going to your first point on inquiry, as your three strategic points you
had mentioned: relationship, quality, and inquiry, and the importance of that inquiry with
everyone within that community. How have you seen engagement done or conducted to
do that inquiry?
George: By engagement, do you mean how to get started with that inquiry, or how to
follow up on that?
David: How do you get started?
George: Well in a learning city, any member of the community, any citizen, is a source of
the inquiry, so as Jane Jacobs said once: every city is continually sowing the seeds of its
success. Diversity being the seed of a successful city. Diversity is not only in a practical
passive sense of age and demographic diversity, but also the diversity of questions that
can become alive only when citizens voice it; and of course many of us, including myself,
feel that Who am I to raise an issue at the city level? I dont have much power as a
individual. Thats true, but when we come together and form values communities of
engaged citizens, even a small number of committed citizens can make a difference, so that
the engagement for the inquiry starts with the individual who cares about something and
starts talking with others to discover fellow citizens who also care about that matter. Then
they bring their hearts and minds together to decide how they are going to get that
conversation going.
David: Thank you George, that is actually a wonderful segue to bring in Darcy into our
conversation as well. Darcy, in reviewing your background in what you have done, I was
very intrigued in terms of how you have done work in terms of forest conservation on
issues in Canadas West Coast. I can only imagine the complexity involved in bringing
groups together to be able to do that, so I am curious as to your thoughts on the system,
the life cycles that we have been talking about.
Darcy Riddell: Actually my research is looking at how some of the forest conservation
efforts have scaled up and led to the largest forest conservation agreement in the world,
which covers all of Canadas Northern Boreal forests and covers eight jurisdictions, and
includes Canadian and US forest companies, and many, many environmental organizations,
and many different layers of political jurisdiction.
I have been looking at that, and I think just to frame some of my comments, one of the
major challenges facing humanity, or the question of how we are going to survive and
thrive together at all levels, and in the context of a lot of very powerful global forces, many
people have focused on the city as a place where people are close to the consequences of
decisions, and that there are strong local feedback loops, so that citizens can actually feel
empowered, compared to, say, acting on a global or national stage can.
One of the things that I think is a really healthy and creative tension is the tension
between helping people think and act across all scales. Some of the biggest barriers facing
cities to reinvent themselves is that they have a very limited amount of power, and lots of
very strong vested interests, and also limited resources in terms of the power of taxation,
and so on. What I like to think about is to start to try to think about cities within nested
systems of larger scales, and so while I have focused a lot on how groups can come
together and solve problems maybe at levels of provincial, national, or even international
jurisdiction, oftentimes there really are still groups of interested people representing a
much smaller subset of that, and trying to develop in more of an innovation or niche
experimentation model, trying to find solutions to real problems. The key is to get enough
diversity into the room when trying to convene groups of people who may have different
perspectives of how a given issue is solved. So you want enough diversity so that you are
going to start getting a good comprehensive sense of the challenges and the issues at
hand; but you also want a nimble enough group of people so that they can be responsive
to good facilitation, develop trust, and shared capacity and relationships to work together,
and also be a functional communicating body.
So I have been studying and doing a lot of facilitation and convening of such change efforts,
and the things that I really identify as critical, and its part of the theme of the human hive,
as Marilyn points out, is treating each other well, and learning how to be together in ways
that we may vehemently disagree, but we are passionately interested in what it is that the
other person is seeing, that we may not be seeing. I think that capacity is cultivated by
exposure to examples of other solutions that have worked, cultivated by exposure to
whole systems thinking that enables people to get out of their own narrow perspective;
and at the same time have their values be acknowledged, and have a place made for what
they consider to be sacred, what they consider to be primary, what they consider to be the
most important thing. And then be able to situate that within the large context of other
perspectives, and then begin to work together across differences to find solutions. Then I
think that sort of model can work really well in cities, and it can work virtually, it can work
face to face, it looks a little bit different in different contexts. Then new technologies
enable much greater numbers of people to be convened to find out ideas, and have
friendly competitions, and see how solutions to problems people are facing every day can
be solved, just through getting our arms around the whole system by hearing different
voices. So I think there is an array of appropriate ways to convene people to solve
problems and find opportunities for growth, depending on the exact context of the
problem.
One of the other things that I think being a systems-aware integral citizen involves is
understanding where power lies. One of the fascinating things about cities being situated
within these other higher contexts that influences us, and having/bringing a living
systems awareness to that, is that the impact on Main Street of the 2008 financial crisis
had nothing to do with Main Street. It had to do with decisions being made very far away
from those people, and so how vulnerable the city is, in certain ways, to these larger forces.
A lot of my work has been working with advocacy organizations to try to look at systems
through multiple levels, and understand where the most powerful high leverage scale of
the system to intervene within, is. To make that really concrete, I have been interested in a
friend and colleague of mine, David Eaves, who does a lot of work on open data in cities.
This movement is a fascinating movement, and we might consider it as being something
that an individual city can take on, but the implications are that there is an opportunity for
cities to collaborate globally, especially small cities, to share infrastructure - IT
infrastructure and software, developed in open source ways, that requires a level of
coordination that is much higher than the individual city, and yet it yields benefits at the
city level that requires infrastructure globally. So I think there are some interesting
examples of how, in order to address city-level problems, we need to go up a lot of scales
to engage creative thinking and innovation.
David: Well Darcy, that really connects with me personally, actually, on a whole number
of fronts, and I have a similar path as yourself, as youre describing it to me. Some of the
most innovative and creative things that I have seen come together were when we
brought engineers, artists, planners and musicians and a diversity of culture and age
groups together. One of the things I have experienced in Alberta is they worked very
closely in the indigenous or aboriginal communities, and they were very much struggling
to raise their voice to a level where it was actually heard and listened to, and not placated
to. It is something that has been a real challenge working in the community. My
indigenous brothers and sisters use the term called lateral violence, where there is
violence to each other in doing this, because ego, power and money come into this, and it
starts to impact their overall community because of it. Its something that I see being
within it, and I guess one of the questions that is surfacing for me here is: what are other
people seeing that we might not be seeing? Im wondering about that; we see something,
or we are unable to see something that others are seeing. How do we bring that out?
Darcy: I think thats really a powerful question. I was recently doing some leadership and
capacity building work for women serving organizations, working for women, working in
the front line in Vancouver downtown East side, which in a global context is both a vibrant
community, and a community that has some of the highest rates of HIV in the Western
world, and the highest rate of intravenous drug use, and the highest rates of homelessness,
and sex work and child sex work, and a lot of first nations people who are embroiled in
that. The community, due to lots of historical reasons of colonization and residential
schools and so on, it was fascinating to work with some of these front line workers,
because they were really struggling. Their daily experience was, it was much more
rewarding to work with the populations they were serving, and where they experienced
their most frustrations was in dealing with provincial bureaucracies . So it was interesting,
because they had so much passion to include finding venues to include the populations
that they were working with, to get their voices into the system. Our work was really
helping them to find some spaces to turn up the volume on the perspectives that they had.
Part of it was really helping them to break down the silos between the organizations that
didnt really communicate with each other, even though they were down the block from
one another. So sometimes its the most basic relationship building, first of all, and then
helping them think about how the barriers theyre facing, or the populations theyre
serving or facing are not alone, and that there is power in collaborating to give voice to
those concerns.
So then what does that look like? Sadly, in the short term, there have been a lot of
government decisions that have increased the disenfranchisement of people that were
extremely vulnerable already in urban populations in Canada. What that means is when
people have more connection with each other, they are able and can really start to
articulate some of the challenges, for example, facing aboriginal, sex worker drug users in
the downtown East side, and how they face so many barriers of getting their voices heard
in a political process where they may have really important things to share about how
their community can grow and thrive. So through really small level connections across
organizations, and helping empower some of those individuals to take leadership roles, it
kind of trickles up. Yet at the same time, people have to be able to engage politically,
whether its municipal infrastructures, and often linking up with provincial and national
decision making bodies as well, to be able to address some of the structural and policy
environments theyre facing. I dont know if that really answers your question, but
certainly the challenge of including vulnerable voices in public policy; I think that the
challenges are there, and I think the opportunities are huge.
David: I very much agree. I think the most profound experiences in my personal life are
when those voices actually are heard; to see the difference that it truly makes within that
community, whatever that community is. In this case, were talking about indigenous or
aboriginal communities, first nations. But in any community when their voices are actually
heard, its a matter of lifting that out.
I am very intrigued, actually, at something you brought up that connects with George as
well, and that is open data. I have worked in open data environments as well, and have
actually helped establish the city of Edmonton has an open data approach that is being
undertaken as well. One of the amazing opportunities that I have witnessed happen with
open data is, when that information is put out there, people start to use that information
in different ways that you would never have thought of. Sometimes theres very practical
examples of public transit - i.e. you put your public transit times out, and then people are
able to better create little applications, so that youre getting real time notices of bus
service or train service coming through. Weve seen some very profound things, in terms
of community issues that maybe going on, and putting that information, or call centre data
that isnt confidential, putting that out for the public to take a look at. I wonder how, with
what you were saying, George, about using virtual learning cities, and this concept of open
data if those two are tied. I think sometimes of these gold mines of information sitting
there that are untapped, that we could start to explore. What are your thoughts on that
George?
George: Talking about unmined information and its potential for making a difference, yes.
Connecting the open data movement with various streams of activists working on the
regeneration of the cities, is, of course, desirable. I just want to point to another related
phenomenon, where technology enabled data mining, combined with citizen democracy,
can make a potentially even bigger difference. Big Data, I dont know whether youve
heard of that? Big Data refers to the huge volume of information about everything and
anything that becomes available to the internet when we start to connect it to things,
which are the sensors physical sensors placed on buildings, electricity grid,
transportation, and just about everything that can be measured.
The city can connect them, and there are big companies like CISCO and IBM that are
pushing the concept of the smart cities, which is basically increasing the artificial
intelligence impact on top-down city design. I was at a conference here in London where
futurologists talked about the smart city and I raised the question, How about wise
cities? By wise cities, I mean the possibility - because technically its possible to connect
all the big data that is available. To connect it, make it open, make it visible, readable,
audible, watchable by everybody in the city. Then comes what I refer to in my little talk as
the need for connective meaning-making organs; collective sensing organs that citizens
decide what is the meaning, what are the implications of all the data; information that they
can receive through the open data policies, and through the Big Data technologies.
David: Thank you George, I want to ask and build on that, and Darcy please jump in as
well, related to improving the health of a system. I feel were talking about things across
many scales right now; from the macro all the way through to the micro; and I am
wondering, how do you see this contributing to improving the health of a system? Having
this information, how do you see that contributing to improving it?
Darcy: Well, it fulfills a lot of living systems principles to have information flowing up and
down and across different domains of knowledge. But I think that individuals and people
working within various municipal systems experience the frustrations of not being able to
get information thats vital. The Open Cities movement, in some of the cities that have
taken open data, some of the reports that are coming out of some municipalities are
actually that its the colleagues down the hall that are finding the most utility out of having
their colleagues information that they didnt have before, due to siloing within even the
city hall scenario. So from a very specific urban governance perspective, people within
those silos all of a sudden have a lot more freedom and creativity, and begin to see the
cumulative impact of their decision making, that might flow onto other individuals in
other departments. So I think you can get a real synergy coming from policy that way, and
better decisions.
But then on the smallest scale, there are a lot of different stories of data being released
where people, neighborhoods, are looking at accident data that happens in their regions,
and theyre able to mobilize to get different safety inclusions happening. Traffic coming, or
other things like that. That empowers people at a really micro level. I think there are
examples of being able to look across entire cities and identify where theres various
underutilized land; people can have more access to growing food. The decisions can be
made at city level, and open up areas for local communities and individuals to start
growing food or flowers that beautifies and makes cities more healthy. This also urges
people to have [more local] access to food, and it cuts food costs, and provides a lot of
fresh vegetables and things for people.
I think from some of those examples, it can affect peoples lives really directly. But it can
also go up the scale. What I was discussing earlier around open city data is, if you think
about how little money cities actually have. Given the fact that in Canada, 90% of the
people live in cities; the cities are very underfunded; and they face up-front costs and
ageing infrastructure, and all kinds of challenges. But the pattern over the last decade has
been to sink additional money into very technologically intensive IT systems, management
systems, and a belief that each citys problems are so unique that they cant be solved by
using someone else's software. So they get into very expensive contracts with IT
companies. Theyre locked into these expensive relationships, and so the opportunity for
open data, in that context, is for cities across the world to collaborate and have a shared
platform where open software becomes available. Then that can have really powerful
impacts, as well, in places. It can spur local IT industries in small municipal settings, but it
can also be available in different continents and places where, in African cities or in Asian
cities, they might not have enough money to invest as much. So the power of open data
can go up and down across scales.
David: Thank you very much Darcy for that. Were getting to the end of our regular time,
and moving towards Q&A. But before we move into that, I just wanted to make a brief
comment in terms of the themes I was hearing from both of you. I think I heard similar
language and conversation around accountability - that there needs to be accountability to
the systems, accountability to each other, accountability to this earth.
I also heard collaboration and the importance of building those relationships, and working
together regardless of orders or levels of government. Those types of things where
collaboration is so critical to be successful.
The third that I have heard clearly from both of you is transparency. The transparency in
the decision making thats happening, transparency in the information that is being made
available. I think those three certainly resonate with myself. So with that I thank you again
so much, and I look to Eric to start a question and answer session in the breakout rooms.
Eric Troth: Theres questions coming in around the notion of power, and where that
resides. Darcy was making the point about the power of open data. Also thinking about the
power of the inquiry. I was hearing in what George was saying a lot of focus on that
process perspective. Im wondering how we can bring that dimension into this as well.
What is the connection between information and inquiry processes, as a new expression of
power? Thats a question that came up for me. And we have a hand up from Alia.
Alia: This is a complex question, Im going to do my best with it. I want to pull on a thread
that has been implicit in this remarkable conversation. Its a thread that was triggered by
notions like issue-tracking software, communities that engage citizens, individuals who
care talking with others. It seems to me that we can look at people connecting, at
individuals sharing ideas, at making voices heard, as of extraordinary value. And in many
cases, steps forward. Theres something else in there that could be teased out for me the
phenomenon of collective intelligence is something more than combined intelligence. Ive
been asking my local friend, Stephen Walker, on his take, and he said that theres a
perspective of seeing individuals talking, and theres another context in which you can see
a conversation happening, and its being co-created by the participants. But the
conversation is the whole. Its not just whole individuals interacting with each other. The
conversation itself is the whole unto itself, and we are parts of the conversation
interacting and drawing out inspiration from the conversation itself. Its kind of like the
difference between a linear conversation and a mind map. I wanted to note that both are
valuable approaches to the kinds of interactions were talking about here. Ideally wed
have both. Any of us can shift into that perspective at any time, with any others were
involved in. Its something we bring; something we create. Rather than being handed to us.
Eric: Thank you Alia. Thats a rich question youre posing. I like that youre bringing it
back into more than just combined intelligences, but something different. A new kind of
phenomenon, as George was speaking to earlier in the session. About the eLab and the
potentials of that moving forward. The evolutionary necessity of that, as well. To keep in
mind, too, that this conference has been framed by Marilyn in terms of the twelve
evolutionary intelligences in her book. This theme of intelligence, and what really does
that mean? I think weaves through this entire conference.
George: I appreciate very much the distinctions of individuals talking, vs. conversations
happening. We know that both things occur at the same time. But we can see different
perspectives. For example in this conversation right now, I can notice that Im listening
and Im talking. I can also notice that not only you and me are listening and talking, but
also something is unfolding; the conversation is happening. So its a question of the
perspective. Whether Im taking the perspective of the part, the individual, or the we-
space, the collective perspective. The interesting thing is that when Im taking the we-
perspective, in which it is the conversation that is happening, then Im going meta to my
individual perspective, but that is not the end of the story. Because what we can also
notice, all of us who are participating in this conversation right now, that whilst we are in
conversation with one another, something else is also happening. That something else is
the awakening of the collective intelligence at the larger scale, that includes all of us who
are not in this call, but who are passionately interested in learning cities, etc. and who will
be able to listen to this conversations recording, [read the transcript], correspond and
make comments on it. So the larger conversation is happening, also. The larger
conversation which is, in a sense, the global brain organizing itself. All those different
levels happening at the same time, and its just a question of perspective and choice to
what we are paying attention to.
Darcy: Id like to add to that. I appreciate the distinction, as well. I think that the kind of
work we face as humanity is requiring and calling on us to inhabit that emergent
intelligences space, more and more. The capacity to be in conversations with one another,
I also believe it has a state and a presence quality to it, in that we can invite that
awareness into a room, with people who feel it, whether or not its articulated. Its
possible, and important, to infuse decision making and conversations and searching for
change discussions with that quality of presence that youre speaking about, and that
awareness that were inviting the future to be inhabited now, and were inviting new ways
of thinking and being. And were inviting this co-evolutionary participation in our
discussions. Thats very much an energetic, individual presence that can be in ourselves;
that we can then subtly invite others to co-create with us.
Eric: Very rich. I notice Im feeling perked up by whats stirring in this space. Just to tag on
one of Georges terms, going meta. That process of simply stepping back. Were often
embedded in a perspective, and as we step back a little bit and ask the wider question,
Whats really going on here? That leads into new domains. As we explore what it is to
create a new paradigm, to design something thats just a linear continuation of the old, but
to take it another step. We need to be able to step back from our own process, and Darcy
spoke to that very beautifully, as well.
Question from Diane: Hi Eric. You said a minute ago that you really perked up by what
was stirring in this space. I just wanted to try to bring attention to that kind of emergence
of energy that does happen when conversations like this are between people. In the
moment, you know? Paying attention to that energy, I think, really helps to keep us going
in that direction of interconnectivity. I really appreciated Alias comments and Georges
after that, and Darcys. Just trying to shift from this old paradigm, this old way of looking at
things. To trying to be in this kind of living energy thats available when people are
attentive to it. Trying to grasp whats coming up that is new. One of the words that struck
me as being kind of from an old frame is the vulnerability of people. Because what we
sometimes think of as being vulnerable is huge, immense strength. What we think of as
being strength is sometimes a fear of vulnerability. I just wanted to throw that in.
Thanks.
Eric: Thank you Diane. Im appreciating the richness of this. Drawing in our speakers
whats really going on here, in this moment?
David: What I found in listening to both George and Darcy, and sharing what they shared,
what its really done for me is inspire me to reflect back on the processes that we currently
use. What is happening around me right now within my own community? Im very active
in our local community, and in fact this weekend were doing a march against a
development thats happening, to bring people some awareness to whats happening there,
and a lack of collaboration and transparency in conversation. That has not taken place. So
much so that there were votes on Council to bypass public consultation that then had to be
approved provincially, as part of our municipal government act, to then approve the fact
that we werent doing public consultation. That there wouldnt, in fact, be public
consultation. The outcome of that is a break in trust at a very profound level. I just feel
whats happening, in terms of this dialogue, is that for myself, that reaffirmation and
confirmation that this is about relationships. This is about sitting down and having honest-
to-goodness dialogue. Discussing issues, bringing different viewpoints together, and to not
be afraid of those conversations. To continually welcome, even though people will come to
you and say, we dont want to be part of this conversation. But they continue to welcome
everyone to the dialogue. And to be part of building whatever it is that the community
wants to build.
George: Id like to add to this. I felt very inspired by Dianes attention to the importance of
the energies of the present moment. Just paying attention to whats present. Then Eric
coming back with your question. All that makes me more aware of my own experience of
this moment, which is that Im noticing how inspired I am by the direct give-and-take of
questions and contributions that triggered new things I hadnt thought of before. With all
that, Im also aware of the limitation of the present-moment-ness. That limitation that
here we can listen and talk only sequentially one person at a time. That just limits all
what I can hold in my short-term memory. I know that Darcy was sharing many insights
that I would love to be able to review, and revisit. With all the richness of the present
moment, lets not forget that the real emergence and breakthroughs happen more from
the interconnectedness to very different modes of communication in real-time, as were
doing now. Online we can start doing after the call, and in the next few days, by posting
comments on the page of this session, and continue keeping the ball rolling to see where it
wants to go.
Darcy: That gives me a beautiful metaphor of the ripples coming out from this
conversation, and the unknowns even this is an unknown space. In a certain way we can
tune in to who might be listening, but we dont know, really, who is listening in this
moment, and who will participate again in their own time. I do think and feel that the
quality of awareness that we bring to an inquiry can enliven it and invite new insights, no
matter if its in this present moment, or the present moment where none of us will be at.
Where somebody else whos listening [or reading]. For me what falls out of some of the
inquiry around how to be fully present, and invite the fullness of whats possible in
speaking about new ways of living together in cities, is the quality of the awareness that
were able to bring is the most incredible, powerful gift we can give to the question of
What is the future of the city? What is the future of all of us? To use that quality of
awareness to benefit others, and to benefit the whole, is something I take in my heart as
my main purpose of life. So I thank you for bringing those questions up and highlighting
them.
Eric: Thank you Darcy. I love the way that you said that.
Comment from Cheri: I am appreciating the space thats created here, and in the inquiry
of whats actually happening here. For it allowed participation in this way, and that is that
collective intelligence, I agree, is not combined intelligence. I think thats a great
distinction that Alia brought up. There are spectra of intelligences out there, and part of
the benefit, and one of the reasons were looking at Integral City and what Marilyns put
together is because shes differentiated twelve evolutionary intelligences. Which in my
mind say that they are emergent, and were just starting to get a handle on these
intelligences. Ive spent ten years, really, getting a felt, body, lived experience of what
Spiral Dynamics is, and adaptive intelligences is one other domain.
I think we want to also differentiate the people who are in this conversation. We, I can tell,
tend to have a value for conversation itself. When were looking at cities, one of the things
that we might have to let go of is this value of conversation. Because as a city, I know that
people actually value conversation. Ive heard even in the last several sessions Ive been in
that its really difficult to facilitate. The different intelligences, the different perspectives,
the emotional motivations for things, the distortions that happen, the unconsciousness
that comes out. To try to sort it all out is really tough. So I think where were getting
pointed here is to the intelligences themselves.
I had an experience while out with a friend of mine who Id been working with for quite a
while, somebody who Ive actually learned to think with. She put a question to me, What
kind of intelligence do you think is in this room, Cheri? The whole question just sent me
into another zone. Because as much time as Ive spent thinking and working with
intelligences in myself, I hadnt been looking around me. In that moment, in this
restaurant we were in, what is the intelligence that was here? I swear it just opened up
something in me, just the physicalness of the inquiry. My comment is that for people here
in this space, one of the competencies we might want to point ourselves in is, rather than
valuing how do we bring people together to have conversations, how do we understand,
filter out, work with, use the intelligences we can sense in the space, and then use right
relationship to those intelligences as to how we actually assert ourselves in it. Thats an
entirely different way of being, of interacting in the world.
Eric: Thank you Cheri. It points us to next week, with inquiry intelligence, one of the
twelve. Understanding how all this fits together in our session beginning next week will be
with Ken Wilber on the integral map, a way of getting that meta-perspective, and how all
this fits together. Because we have some very practical things of infrastructure
intelligence, and how do we get down to meetings in city councils to get things done in a
lower-right quadrant kind of way? Then we have this other kind of process, and blend all
of that together in its appropriate context, because it might not fit everywhere. Theres the
space to hold it all. That seems like a really exciting prospect to me.
Darcy: I appreciate the embodied trip you just took us on. I feel what you were feeling in
that, and love what you said about finding ways to be in right relationship with the
intelligences that different people are bringing. I do think thats the central question of
how we improve our cities, and how we work in relationship toward that goal. Just
attuning going back to living systems principles, one of the things Ive found in looking at
the role of sense-making and convening conversations is that theres a time and a place for
that. Its a systemic timing, as well as timing for individuals. It can be something as simple
as city council meetings happening at 7:00 at night, and Im a young mother, and thats a
really bad time for me to go. So who shows up at things, and when.
But on a much deeper level, attuning to what the right timing for conversations, and when
theres ripeness. I think thats where being responsive to concerns as theyre raised, as
opposed to driving agendas from the top-down, is a really powerful stance that cities can
take. Where theres readiness. Also theres a tendency, certainly among some more
inclusive, pluralistic-minded people, to think that everything has to be done by trying to
include every voice at all times. That can be draining, can be trust-destroying, and can be
the wrong timing. So attuning to cycles of when to engage, and listening to the system, of
whos saying they want to be engaged, are really important to timing conversations, then
attuning them to what works for people, and how they would like to participate, if at all. I
think all those things are really important in a culture where public engagement, and
different engagement processes are becoming such a primary way of doing policy and
governance. I dont think that having a conversation is always the solution. I appreciate
some of that perspective, and then tuning in to what is a way to tap in to the different
contributions that people have.
George: I interpreted Cheris comment about the relationship with the intelligences in
two ways. One is our relationship with each other as we hold different intelligences to
different degrees. The other is our relationship to those intelligences themselves. One is
with each other, the other is to those different types of intelligences. At first what Im
present to is that not every one of us has the same level of development in each of the
different types of intelligences, or if I step back and take a bigger picture, I would say that
not each of our communities and organizations have equally developed all the different
types of intelligences. Given that, what is worth paying attention to in any conversation
with multiple stakeholders, including stakeholder organizations, is that who has the
particular gift that can further the conversation, that can further the action in this moment.
And then bring our attention to that person, that organization, and encourage
him/her/them to bring forth their gifts. That also reminds me of a very interesting e-mail
exchange I had with Alia about the different divisions of labor. And how does that relate to
holding different perspectives. I enjoyed it so much that I asked earlier to post the
exchange on the webpage a placeholder for those of you who are interested in another
take on all this, to take a look at it.
Back to Cheris comment, and my interpretation of it as what is our relationship to the
different types of intelligences, let me tell you a story of how I came to this outline of my
conversation. To summarize it in a couple of points, that related to three of the twelve
intelligences that Marilyn outlined. I was very impressed and inspired by the Integral City
Compass. I dont know whether youve all seen it; its a logo on the website that visually
lays out the twelve intelligences as a compass. Its a pretty complex picture, but at the
same time quite elegant. It has a simplicity to it as well.
When I first looked at it, it conveyed to me like
architecture, frozen music. Its something that if I really
want to immerse, it would take many months or even
years to absorb what Marilyns been working on as her
life work. I would love to do that, but dont have the time. I
wanted to use this in my talk, so what I did in a kind of
irreverent way, I did orbit hopping. I call it orbit hopping
because the twelve intelligences are present like electrons
orbiting the center, the evolutionary intelligence. So I
started with evolutionary intelligence, because, to me,
thats where it all starts. Where are we coming from? And
where are we heading? Then from that, I hopped on the orbit of Integral Intelligences, and
chose the Cultural Intelligence, because thats what I felt the most relevant to the theme of
my talk about mobilizing the collective intelligence in the learning city. From there I
hopped to one more external orbit, on the orbit of strategic intelligence, where I chose the
Inquiry. Just to give an example that we can relate to this multiplicity of intelligences in an
improvised way; the orbit hopping way. That means we can touch down on any of them as
they bring the harvest of their fruits, what they can bring to the present moment.
Eric: Thank you. Im aware that were coming to the end of our 90 minute session. I have a
sense that theres something stirring here thats of interest. Perhaps theres something we
can do to continue that. As George pointed to, whats put on the website. Theres
synchronous and asynchronous we need both of those. Right now theres a limited
number of perspectives we can weave into the live environment. To bring in all the
streams, I want to invite people to comment on that further on the website. David, is there
anything youd like to say to wrap this together? Our theme for today has been Living
Systems Intelligence. It seems like were finding that operational right now in whats been
unfolding.
David: Very much so. I really appreciate the conversation from everyone. Its been a
wonderful dialogue. Going back to living systems intelligence, this being an actual example
of that, as I reflect on what we just went through in the past 90 minutes. Im also struck by
the importance of timing, and right relationships in engagement in the conversation that
centered around that. Your example, Darcy, of being a young mother, and Im a single
parent with two boys, and have similar challenges. What I start to wonder is about the
necessity of multiple channels for discussion. I think thats what youre pointing out,
George, in terms of creating these virtual learning cities. An ability for people to have
multiple channels to be able to interact with each other. That its not only in-person all the
time. With that I want to thank both of our speakers for their attendance today, and
everyone else who was able to join us on the call.

1

What and where are we implementing
living systems intelligence?

Speakers: Bjarni Jnsson, Roberto Bonilla-Nuez
Interviewer: David Faber
September 6, 2012

Bjarni Snaebjorn Jnsson works as a high level organizational
strategy and change consultant with emphasizing systemic change
within large scale human systems. He is keenly pursuing culture and
values research and engineering in his homeland of Iceland. He enjoys
providing leadership support to those involved in complex problem
solving. Bjarni offers a base of knowledge built from exposure to diverse
business and social structures during his tenure at Capacent.

Roberto Bonilla-Nuez is currently working on the most important
project of his life: he calls it Mexico Project, Integral. Briefly, this work
involves the application of Spiral Dynamics Integral technology to align
actions (energy) in Mexico to enable the country individually and
collectively to take the next step towards a sense of responsibility for
our home, while respecting the law and work systems. Roberto has a
Masters in Mechanical Engineering specializing in Design and
Manufacturing from the Institute of Technology Monterrey. He has 30 years experience in
industry, education and consulting.

David Faber: Thank you very much for being part of our conversation today. It is focused
on living systems, and what and where are we implementing these living systems. In
particular, the point of the session today is around focusing on the practices that exist
within those living systems, and in particular, within municipalities.
Bjarni, what cycle of life are you working within the city, and in what scale?
Bjarni Jnsson: Well, as a matter of fact, I have been working with the whole nation. So
its equally applicable to a city environment, and Im not quite sure what you mean, what
cycles you mean, could you elaborate a bit on that?
David: So in terms of cycles of life, what we are referring to is, someone is born, they age
over a period of time, and become a senior. So you move through your lifespan, and in that
time, in that cycle, what are you familiar with, in terms of living systems; so that
individually it would scale? And you mentioned working more on the national level; I
would really love to hear more about that.
Bjarni: In terms of cycles, the life cycle Ive been working with is a human system of a
fairly young democracy thats sort of finding its way into a more structured approach. So
its a young system in that sense, that during the financial crisis it was hit very hard
because it was sort of reckless, or lets say all the structures were all weak, so it was a big
hit. On the other hand, because the system is fairly young and flexible, it has done a
tremendous job resurrecting itself, in a way. So where Ive been involved is in organizing
citizen communicated engagement, to talk about whats happening, and what does that
mean for our future, and doing it by trying to harness the intelligence and wisdom from
the ordinary people. We are doing it in a crowd of 1,000 to 1,200 people, a random sample
throughout the nation. So thats what Ive been involved with, and what we are trying to
explore is how can we learn from this experience, and how we can strengthen the social
structures to really be strong enough to cope with the rapid economic growth and
expansion in Iceland, in the last 11 years or so.
David: Thank you Bjarni. Roberto, taking a look at your work as well, it seems it connects
too, so I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit further on the human lifecycles youre
seeing in Mexico.
Roberto Bonilla: In my case, I am working both nationwide, and in the city where I live.
At the nationwide perspective, I started along with Don Beck in 2007 doing some research
in order to understand the life conditions and the reality of Mexico, and I think that maybe
due to the size of the country, we are talking about 112 million people in Mexico - we have
a blend regarding the lifecycles, maybe in parts of the country we are like an aging nation,
with a lot of structures and institutions lacking the capability to have enough flexibility to
adapt to the changes. Even some institutions are not operating very well, but the
government still feeds them with money to keep the institutions going. On the other hand,
there are more younger manifestations, because of groups of people that are asking for
changes and looking for better futures that the current systems are not able to deliver
thats talking about the nationwide perspective.
On the other hand, along with Marilyn Hamilton, this past June we just started a project in
my city that is in the center of Mexico, Len, Guanajuato. We are just taking the first baby
steps in order to awaken the minds of leaders, from NGOs, governments, business, in
order to explore the possibility of how this city could use an integral approach like
Integral City. So we are offering the first steps, and also at the same time, after Marilyn
was there, we had the election process. So, coincidentally, both the country and my city
are changing the political party. We were ruled by the right party, and now its forming
more from the center. So this transition also will affect the evolution of the city and the
country.
David: Well Roberto, building on what you said, I personally experienced, as you were
describing, an awakening or awareness for these issues and really making them visible.
Im curious as to how you are able to do that with such a large group of people.
Roberto: Well, I am going to focus on my city. We made two important alliances in order
to keep myself and my group in a low profile way of acting. In our case, in our city there is
a Citizen Observatory that has been working for three years. The main purpose of this
Citizen Observatory is to look at the way the government rules the city, so they have a
system of indicators that they are monitoring on a continual basis. Every six months they
deliver to the citizens the results of the indicators, and show, in a traffic light manner, the
performance of the local government. This Citizen Observatory is starting to win respect
with the citizens, and on balance is a well-respected institution, despite being a very
young one. So we made an alliance with them, and also with one of the main private
universities in this city, Monterrey Tech. So three institutions, the Observatory, Monterrey
Tech, and my company called Novarumm, we organized a symposium, resembling in a
way what Bjarni did in Iceland. When the Observatory people looked at the work that
Bjarni has been doing and the picture of the assemblies of 1,000 or 2,000 people, they
wanted to replicate that in Len. But in Len, we have 1,500,000 people, and we didnt
have the mechanism to do a random sample. So we organized a symposium, and we
invited in an open way. It was a free event and 300 people showed up in June. Most of
them were leaders from Government, from local businesses and also maybe half of the
people who attended were leaders in NGOs. So that was the first approach to start a little
bit to plant these seeds of Integral City in Len.
David: Bjarni, Roberto referenced the assemblies of 1,000 or 2,000 people in Iceland. How
was that brought together, and what type of result did you have?
Bjarni: Well, we are in Iceland, at the opposite spectrum as Roberto, in a sense that we
have a very small nation, with Reykjavik, the capital, being more than half of the
population. So its a very interconnected thing, and we have a homogenous culture, so to
speak, and everyone is connected to the internet. So its much easier to organize a large-
scale assembly like that. What happened was that there was a group of people that caught
the idea after the crisis to initiate a constructive dialogue, because it had been very
negative, and there was not really anything coming out of it, so it was an attempt to turn
the discussion around. We went to several bodies; to the parliament, the city and the
stakeholders, and they didnt want to be directly involved. But they said, on the other hand,
if you do it, we will meet there. So that was what happened. We got some financial support
from them, but most of all of it was done on a voluntary basis. The city provided the space,
and then we had the random sample from the population, from the general public. We also
had in the room members of the parliament and the city council and stakeholders, just for
them to experience the atmosphere, and to be part of this process, in order to take
ownership, if you wish take ownership of the conclusions. We worked in a very open
environment, facilitated by people that we had trained specifically to do that, in order to
ensure safety, and ensure everyone was heard, and all points were registered. I have been
working with the state to see what picture is emerging out of this large group. This event,
which was in 2009, was then the model for another similar event that took place in 2010,
and that was called for by the Parliament itself to initiate a revision of the Constitution. So
that one assembly was with 1,000 people, done in the same way, but the questions were
different, because it was geared towards the constitutional discussion. The process was a
bit different, because it was an official process, and the conclusions went to an expert
committee, which then processed the data for a specific publicly elected council to take in
as ingredients in discussing the new Constitution.
So that has been the process up until now, and of course, in that process a lot of different
events have happened using the same format, which has proved to be very efficient in
order to extract peoples genuine beliefs and ideas as they do when they find themselves
in a safe and authentic environment. So thats been our journey, and it is still going on, and
other things have been tied to it, like the city of Reykjavik has been running a website
called Better Reykjavik, where citizens are invited to provide ideas, discuss them, and its
trying to take notice of what is being said in order to improve the city. So there are a lot of
things going on in trying to involve the citizens more.
David: Thank you Bjarni. I must say that sounds very incredible actually, just fantastic
that you were able to do that. The experience that I have had, that is why I framed my
questions for you, is that there can be a lot of good communication, and as you said, create
this safe space for these conversations to happen, and that people really listen to each
other, and not just provide information to each other; but to listen and learn from each
other. I am always curious, though; once that information is received, and youve able to
go through it, how is that information actually being applied in government decision
making, whether its local or state or federal?
Bjarni: That is the stage of further development really, because we have been working on
trying to have a continuous thread from the intelligence generated by the large group,
down to the actual decision making process. What we did at the assembly was that people
voted on the most important issues in their mind, so they selected certain things they
found were the most important, and those were the things, items, issues, that were taken
further for more deliberation and policy making. So thats the narrowing down process
which we wanted to have the participant themselves do, as much as possible, so that we
could get the intensity of the points being raised, not just everything being raised, but also
the essence of what people thought was important. We are still working on trying to
develop this process so that we can keep it authentic all the way, and say OK, this is not
being influenced by some people that have their own biases; its being worked through by
the whole group that generated the date in the first place. But we still have some work to
do there.
David: You mentioned bias. When you bring that many people together, one of the
questions I have is around the diversity of the group that does come together. Is there
diversity in the group? In the previous session we were talking about this, the importance
of having diversity, but in a sense of either cultural or political, or age. But diversity in
view as well. Do you try to intentionally shape that, or does it just happen?
Bjarni: It depends. When you talk about diversity, its, of course, on one hand the
demographic diversity and age, and the place where you live, and so on. We try to ensure
that we have the full diversity, in that sense. We had the spectrum of the nation from 18
years up. And we distributed the participants randomly around the tables, so we tried to
get diversity, we didnt know people, so we randomly ensured diversity that way, too.
There was the prime minister and the common worker sitting in the same table, just
talking as persons together, about their common interest in preserving the country and
nation, and so on. [Everyone came representing only themselves, not their roles or jobs.]
So we try to, but on the other hand, of course, we were not quite sure of the diversity, in
terms of what you are, or how people really were programmed, in that sense. But we felt
with this large crowd, and as we selected them in a statistical way, we were getting as
close as we could to ensuring the diversity.
David: Roberto, in your experience of what you started to apply in decision making as
well, how did you handle diversity within your groups as they come together?
Roberto: Let me elaborate a little bit with further information, and then I will address
your question. Additional information that might be interesting for the audience is that we
looked for funds in order to fund the event, including bringing Marilyn from Canada, and
all the staff to make the assembly. We looked for the sponsorship of the government, the
city government, the state government, and at the beginning they offered some kind of
support, so we trusted that we could do the event with that support. But a week and a half
before the event, wed already announced and invited the people, and as I mentioned, we
invited people to come for free, in order to get them attracted to the event. The
government told us that they will not be able to support us, maybe because we were in an
electoral process, very close to the elections, and the budgets are tight I dont know. So
we moved very fast, the Observatory and Monterrey Tech, and got the space for free, and
we looked for sponsors in the private companies, so the whole event was funded by
private companies. We got a very good response in that way, so the event was named
Citizen Symposium, private companies supporting social initiatives. That was important,
because all these events cost money, and the funds should come from someone. In this
case, the government was behind the action of the private companies.
So the information we gathered, we presented to the candidates for mayor. There were
three or four candidates for mayor, and the Observatory held a press conference in order
to deliver a summary to the candidates all at the same time, that contained both the
findings from the Observatory, derived from the indicators they ran, and also included a
chapter with the main findings of the assembly.
In the case of diversity, I can say it in this way. We designed an attractor, and people, in a
natural way, got enrolled in that attractor. As I mentioned before, I guess that maybe half
of the audience that attended, of 300 people, were from NGOs. So I think that in order to
move forward in other events, in order to work in a process of becoming an Integral City,
we need to organize assemblies, but maybe in a stratified way. I think its good to have
diversity in the assembly, but also we have to understand that there are different realities
in this city.
If we can use ZIP code as a criteria, for example. Because in a city, if you analyze, the ZIP
code on a map, you can find that they represent different realities economical realities,
social realities. In our city, we have people living in extreme poverty, and also people
living very well. In the case of the assembly that we did in last June, we had a very good
opportunity to taste the diversity. Let me elaborate a little bit very quickly. Before the
event, Marilyn asked us to take a trip around the city in order that she could have a taste
of the different social realities. So on that trip, Marilyn could see the extreme poverty, the
low middle class, the middle class, and the helping classes. When the group along with her
was visiting a very poor neighborhood, she invited the people to come to the symposium,
and they were people living in extreme poor conditions, indigenous people, and they
attended the symposium. So that was very extreme because, maybe this symposium was
more represented by the middle class, as well as this group of ten people that lived in very
extreme conditions. So that was a situation that gave us a taste of the importance to attend
to diversity. But I think that the next step is to do the assemblies in a stratified way, in
order to understand the reality of poor neighborhoods, for instance, in contrast to the
necessities and realities of a middle class neighborhood. Maybe in the future, after that, we
could arrange assemblies to do something like Bjarni did, with random samples, but
ensuring that the randomness would include all the realities in the city.
David: Roberto, one of the things I am aware of is the presence of drug cartels and
different issues you are dealing with in your cities, as well. In Canada there are certain
aspects where that comes in as well. Im curious as to whether there were influencing
factors in this as well how are you able to ensure your process stays true?
Roberto: In Mexico, we have a big problem with drug cartels, and the cartels are very
clear where they are located and operating, mainly in the north of the country. I consider,
and not only I, but other people and analysts, that our state that is in the center of Mexico,
Guanajuato, is like a safe place. We are very close to the states that have those kinds of
problems, and we are starting to get contaminated with those kind of problems, but lets
say that mostly in the city that Im talking to you about, Len, the problem is a minor
problem. The violence is growing, but not in the sizes of other states that are close to the
border to the United States. The drugs come from South America, Central America, then
cross Mexico and most of the drugs are directed to the markets in the United States. Thats
why maybe the main problem is concentrated in the cities of the north. But in the case of
Len, and also in the case of Guanajuato, what the government is doing, along with the
private companies and private businessmen, is to start social programs in order to keep
the children and the young people away from the streets, in order to avoid that the gangs
could hire them as members, and that, I think, is doing good. Our state and our city are
preventing the problem, but its a latent problem that is growing little by little. But its not
a big issue right now in this city, in the case where we are planning to do the additional
assemblies.
David: Thank you Roberto. The theme that Im picking up between yourself and Bjarni is
one of also being able to monitor whats happening within your city and your country. In a
way, a living systems monitoring, where youre noticing and being able to feed that
information back to decision makers. Im wondering, in terms that you both mentioned
reporting, and being able to get information, whether it was qualitative, through reaching
out and doing surveys or samplings, or if it was very systematic, or going out and actually
looking at the data, Gallup polls, and other such things. Im wondering Bjarni, if you could
comment around that a little bit, and I will follow up with Roberto, but around the
reporting and how there is a feedback mechanism into this, and how your country or city
is actually doing. Can you describe that a little bit further for us?
Bjarni: Yes. Let me first respond to what Roberto was saying about the assembly and
stratified assemblies, because I think he is correct. In our case, it is a more simple affair, in
a sense that we dont have this vast difference in life conditions of the people, so I think
there are conditions that need to be taken into account. On the other hand, we think that
we had a smaller sample around the country, but I think what we are talking about now is
to try to organize simultaneous assemblies, in order to make them more accessible to
people, and to raise the public profile, because the assemblies are happening all at once,
and then link them together. Thats also part of further development. But regarding the
data and how it was reported at the assembly, we used a method by which we could
record it was sort of an inquiry process, where every participant wrote their thoughts
down on cards, one sentence or issue on one card, and the card was marked with the
number of the participant, which was then registered in a database with the age, where he
came from and gender. We didnt know his name, but we could link all the statements to
demographics, and to the attributes of the participant, so in a sense, it was a huge
qualitative inquiry. We were able to gather all the data that was being presented by the
participants, categorize by themselves in certain categories and themes, and then enter
that data in a database that could be viewed by everyone on the internet. So there was a
sorting mechanism, and you could go into this website and look up a word or something,
and see the comments about that, every comment, and then you could do analysis on how
it was different between age groups, and where people lived, etc. So we did a lot of work in
organizing the capturing and the registering of the data.
These categorizations were made by the participants themselves, and that process proved
to be a very fruitful one. Because in that, all the meaning making took place because
people then were getting a certain understanding of what is this all about. What is this
issue all about, what do we mean by this? So that process gave a lot of shared meaning and
understanding between participants. So that is what we did regarding the qualitative data.
We had previously done some quantitative surveys about things that Roberto was talking
about the value systems and the worldviews of a nation, so that was helpful to take the
data from the assembly and put that in context of the research we had done previously,
and I have been doing that since 2005. So yes, this was really a huge information gathering
and registration, and we wanted to give this as a gift to the nation for everyone to look at.
Politicians and political parties, you know, they wanted to put that into their own
manifesto, etc. But we didnt really follow it through at that time, because the first event
was just to probe; that this was actually possible to do, and also to prove to the decision
makers that it was safe to attend events like this, in times of crisis. They were really afraid,
and we were all afraid that people would just burst out in anger and cut out each others
throats. So we had people on site specifically designed to step in if something happened.
But nothing happened, everyone was very pleased, everyone was very positive, and the
members of the parliament said they would never had believed that this would turn out to
be as pleasant as it was, in the midst of all the crises. So thats also a part of it, is to make it
authentic, and then say, we havent done anything, just to register the extracted data.
David: I have to say, Bjarni, that really makes my heart sing when I hear you say that. To
be able to bring people together and to break through that fear that was there and for
them to actually experience profoundly, and really taking in the heart, not just
superficially. Youre gathering data and making use of it, it really feels like this is
something they actually believe in now, their will is being driven, and I see a lot of
transparency that is being produced by this. Transparency for your citizens to be able to
see how things are actually working within the government and in that conversation. That
trust between your organizations and different orders of government that furthers all of
this, its almost like it starts to feed off itself, it continues to build, because of the
experience that theyve gone through. I actually was curious as well Roberto, to your
experiences around how you have been feeding that information back in your government
for their decision making the quantitative and different qualitative information.
Roberto: This is very interesting, I appreciate that you asked me that question. I think that
we are very fortunate in Len because we already have the Citizen Observatory, and this
organization gathers about 200 citizens that act as observers of the city. But let me tell you
that this observatory made two kind of studies. One was quantitative, regarding the
indicators. They have indicators that I mentioned that they already had, in fact its a model
developed in the same city that was approved by the ISO organization as an international
standard to measure the performance of a city, so in this case we are talking that they are
observing how the local government performs. In economics, health, education
infrastructure, and all the indicators for the city, but also they have in place another set of
indicators that are qualitative, they surface information that they call the perception of the
citizens. So they sample several groups in the city in order to get the perception of how
well is the city running, how safe they feel in the city. So they have both [qualitative and
quantitative]. The way they presented the results, they organized open events and invited
the people with no cause in order to see the results. They did an event for the hard results,
and also a separate event that is being held right now, this day in Len, for the perceptions
of the citizens. We are exploring the ways we can interact, because we as an organization
linked it with Don Beck and Marilyn Hamilton. We have the technology of Spiral
Dynamics, and we can transform the qualitative information into quantitative, as value
systems. So that stage we are exploring; we have not yet done it, but the way the
observatory already is doing that is through open assemblies that they deliver to the city,
and also deliver to the media; put on a web page with access by any citizen, the hard
indicators, and also the perceptions of the citizens. And, of course, the local government,
the mayor and his team are now we will have a new lady mayor, so her team will have
access to those indicators in order to incorporate in the programs. Its like a feedback that
comes from the citizens.
David: Thank you Roberto I have to share the same comments that I shared with Bjarni as
well, that its incredible, frankly, the progress that you made in holding these open events
to share this information. From my perspective, that is the ultimate in transparency, that,
you know, good, bad or ugly, if you want to say it in those terms, you are putting it out
there and showing people both the hard performance measures, as well as the perception
from your citizens. Then further building on that transparency. That is just simply
incredible to hear of that. Ive not heard of very many municipalities in Canada or the US
that have been able to take that on, and actually be of that level of transparency and
simply putting it out there, and not having some manipulation of the information before it
goes out. So its just fabulous to hear. Perhaps along that theme then, I was curious
Roberto, you had mentioned that you have a new mayor and a new government. How did
they receive the report from the observatory? And have they indicated that they will
consider the report to make use of the information?
Roberto: The new lady mayor is going to take position by, I guess, the end of October,
something like that. Maybe it was a strategy for the campaign, but all the candidates for
mayor in the debates mentioned that they will support to continue the citizen observatory,
and thats very natural, because if they say in a public way I dont agree with the work of
the observatory, they put in risk to get votes. So all of them say that they are going to
continue supporting the citizen observatory. Now that she has been elected, she used to
write articles in the newspaper before, mostly attacking the past government that is
almost finishing, and now, since she was elected, she uses the same space in the
newspaper to start saying what she is going to do. She continues supporting the idea that
the observatory is doing a good work, and that the observatory output is useful for her
and her team to improve the city, so I think that the circumstance that she is arriving as a
new mayor is better for her to show the population that she is attending to the voice of the
citizens in order to improve the city. I think that the odds are very good that the
information will be used in a good manner in the benefit of the city.
David: Again Roberto, thats amazing to hear. And I really hope that those on the call
really listen to what you have put out there, both yourself and Bjarni, because you have
been able to do work at this level, and with this type of impact directly to the community,
thats touching the day to day lives of individuals, and its just fantastic. Perhaps on that
note really quickly I would like to ask the audience if they have specific comments.
David: I was looking at the second question that we had, and it was focusing on the
collective wellbeing of not only today, but tomorrow, the next day. In terms of a
generational perspective, it says the 7
th
generation, all the way to your kids, and your kids
kids, and your kids kids kids. This information and the process that you are doing, how
do you ensure its sustainability as a process?
Bjarni: Its difficult to say, the use of the word ensuring, because that is difficult to do,
and what we have been trying to promote is to have, like Roberto was saying, to use the
monitoring, so you can monitor how things are changing, what things are changing, and if
they are changing in the right direction. Then you can have a continuing dialog between
the system, because the system has this one way to move, that is to move from the place
where it is at, therefore the way to sustainability, if there is a way that can be secure, is to
have this constant monitoring and discussing, so there will be a natural design of the
premise of the system itself. So what we are trying to do is to create an understanding that
the data from the members of the system is very important, because it outlines the basis
on which you can develop the system. So there, the experts can be very good, and they
have their own ideas, and they have ideas which are not necessarily embedded within the
system, so they can bring about something that is completely foreign to the system. I think
this is what we are trying to get, and increase understanding of the importance of
monitoring this system. But to be completely realistic, while the decision makers think
this is a good idea, and they have supported it in our case, when it comes to it, and when
they are really thrashing out the final issues and making decisions on them, we have not
come all the way so that they would just do what has been generated from the system.
They have their own interest groups and their own specialists, that are always trying to
interfere with the process, at least for some time. So we still have the problem of a sort of a
disconnect between this process and the actual decision making process, and in my case,
Im completely realistic about that. Something that is for further evolution into the future.
And thats why is important to keep this process growing, because in the end, that will
ensure that it will survive and can be a constructive evolutionary process.
David: Roberto, how you been able to, or have you been able to insure that is sustainable,
what you are going through now? Can it become a one-off, done for a year or two, and then
it fades away? How do you ensure that it continues going forward or influence it to
continue going forward?
Roberto: I think this is a very important question, and I think its very premature in our
case of our city to assure that we will have long term results and ambitions. In fact, I think
one of the tasks that we have to focus on the near future is to find a way to develop a
vision for the city, in order to have a common goal, as citizens. But it should be a vision
that comprises all the realities in the city. We need to build better futures, in plural,
because each reality in this city may have a future look that is different than for other
realities in the city. In the case of the Citizen Observatory, lets be realistic. It is funded
right now from the local government, so we have this organization. Despite that its a very
good one, it also has a weakness that maybe in the future, there could come a mayor in
the case of our cities in Mexico, the mayors term is only three years. That is a very short
term, so they need to accomplish some results in three years in order to have better odds
to win the election for another three years the same party, not the same person. Because
the same person cannot be reelected. So that political system focuses a lot on the short
term. The value of the citizen institution is that the citizens are always in the city, so the
citizens have more capability to see beyond the only three years, to 10 or 20 years, or the
next generation. But one challenge the observatory has is also looking at ways to
accomplish getting funds from other sources different than the government, in order to
become more independent, and also to be sure that the existence of the observatory does
not depend on the local city budget. On one hand, its good that part of the budget goes to
this institution, because finally the budget comes from the taxes of the citizens. But also
they are aware that it depends on the mayor. If the mayor and his or her team decide that
its not a good idea to deploy the budget to this institution, the institution could disappear.
So the challenge of the citizens is to find ways to support the observatory in an
autonomous way. I think that if we could achieve those challenges, along with a long term
vision, we could design the future sustainability for the city in a long term way. But thats a
reality that we have to work on. Thats why I said at the beginning that this is a very
important question.
David: From my experience, just a really brief story, in putting in place a similar initiative
in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. In terms of size, it is about 1.2 million people, and the
challenge we had initially is that this type of process was set up within government. What
happened is that over time, as budget cutbacks came, and I think just as you were
mentioning Roberto, when there were issues with transportation and road repair and
other things that were here and now, and elections were coming close, we saw budget
dollars being cut away from some of these programs. One of the initiatives that I have
started to observe happen now, and am part of, is to form a not-for-profit organization to
actually do this, and to bring together all the different not-for-profit groups and anyone
whos doing data collection throughout the region, bringing them together and actually
creating a free open data source of information that others can then make use of. Because
it also starts to lift out of, perhaps, some of the political situations that happen, where
there is, I dont want to say a manipulation of data, but there's perhaps not as much
conversation about certain pieces of information as others. I just wanted to echo that I
certainly understand its early days going through this, but to be able to form an
independent organization or body that's funded from other sources makes a lot of sense,
and will definitely assist in its sustainability, so thank you very much for that.
One of the questions that surfaces for me, perhaps in both of your experiences, is what
your greatest learning has been going through these processes. Clearly this is something
that has not happened overnight; it's been years in the making, if you will, to go through
and put all the pieces in place. What have you learned, Bjarni, from going through this?
What could you share with our participants of your experiences, the things you would do
differently going forward again, and perhaps the things you would do a little bit more
strongly going forward again?
Bjarni: One quick point on the subject of sustainability. Our idea is that its not only a
collection of data, its also a question of people learning together, and have a dialogue in
this way. Before, that was a very important aspect of it, so we made the handbook
available for everyone to use if they wanted to come together and talk about the shared
possibilities, shared futures or whatever. So that was an attempt to plant a positive virus
into the system, to try to change peoples approach to discuss these things. It actually has
proved a success, because there have been over 100 or more large gatherings using the
handbook or using the resources that we made available.
I think the biggest learning is probably the amount of enthusiasm, or power, or Im not
sure what to call it, the momentum the event created, and that was something that we sort
of overlooked. We said we are using it as quality making event, but it is much more than
that. It is also an event where people get together and they discover shared possibilities,
something they can work on together, or something they can do, and there would be
nothing to stop them doing that, and the momentum created is such that there are groups
that are forming. I know of one table that still have connections between themselves, and
its been two or three years since the event. There was a very strong bonding in this whole
process, but also in the smaller groups and the larger groups. So I think the learning is
apart from, of course, the intelligence and how to make use of the data, and for policy
making, its the possibility or potential that this has to mobilize people in constructive
collaboration over multiple issues. There we come to the leadership issue as the question:
How can that be facilitated, so that it would be a self-organized or self-generated
movement within the system, where a lot of small things would be happening, and all
these small things would then, in the end, emerge towards one big thing? That is my
personal biggest learning. The power and enthusiasm that this creates. And the frustration
of how to use that. How can we make the best use of that?
David: Thank you Bjarni for that, and likewise Roberto given everything that youve gone
through and as you mention it's still early in the process going through but imagine it has
also been years to establish the observatory in a number of things that they put in place,
but what would you say are your greatest learning process to date?
Roberto: Listening to Bjarni, I agree with him that these kinds of events awaken a lot of
energy in the people. Once the people discover that they have a voice, and they have an
opinion, and that their opinions are being collected and processed and delivered to the
authority and to the media, I think that that will transform the society. Because for the
first time, theyre having a voice. Also a big learning that is important, if you are planning
to start a similar movement in your city, is that its very important to take advantage of the
institutions that are already in place. For instance, I did not participate in the starting of
the observatory; the observatory was due to the efforts of other citizens, that took several
years in order to happen. So if an institution already exists, the better thing to do is to take
advantage and to make alliances with them. I think that each city is different, and each city
will have different institutions that you can take advantage, like local universities. In this
case, the local observatory, and also in any city, in my experience here in Mexico,
travelling in the country and visiting different cities, there are always people, from NGOs
and from private companies, that are more sensitive to these kinds of projects. In that way,
you can build the support, not only the funds, and the funds are important, but also the
support to gather other people, to bring other leaders to the table and look for better ways
to build better futures.
In my city, there is another movement that is starting called 60 Minutes for Mexico, and
the idea came from a Mexican that was born in our city, and who studied at Harvard. One
day he was thinking how to help Mexico, despite that he was in Massachusetts studying at
Harvard, and he started a page on Facebook and named it 60 minutes for Mexico, and
invited his friends to invest 60 minutes for Mexico. The response was very impressive
because right now there are about 10,000 Mexican people, mainly from Len, from this
city, but its now spreading to other cities in Mexico. Through Facebook, they are
exchanging the needs for some part of the population, or for certain families, the people
are offering the solutions, so those kinds of initiatives start emerging in our country. So
instead fighting that this is a very image, this is a better project, we are trying to blend and
get a synergy with all those kinds of initiatives. My perspective in the future for Len is
that we could be a good sample of citizen collaboration for the whole country. The sample
is spreading in other cities. Just as a reference, Mexico has about 2,200 counties, so there
is a lot to do in Mexico, but at least in this case this city is starting to lead to a different
culture, a culture related to the collaboration and participation of the citizens.
David: Thank you Roberto, and actually your statement of doing what you would like to
see for rest of the country have happened and for others to then observe that, it reminds
me of the statement, Be the change that you want to see. To actually live that, and others
are then able to follow, in what theyre seeing in terms of the excitement, and how your
community and where your city is being engaged in this conversation.
Roberto: I warn my friends that sometimes using that phrase of Gandhis, of being the
change that you want to see in the world, with a little grain of salt. Because we have to
remind that people that are thinking the same, but in the negative way, because they think
that the way to move in a society that has a lot of inequalities is to take the things that you
dont have, to take them away from the people that have. Or to be part of a drug dealers
gang in order to get money that I deserve, but I dont have. So I understand it is good to
think that we should be the kind of change that we think is good for the society, but as Dr.
Beck warns us, we must be sure that the change we are promoting is the change that the
society needs. Because the same phrase can be applied in a very wrong way. So I think its
a continuous effort to be sure that the healthy conditions are winning the race against the
unhealthy conditions that could be present in some cities in Mexico.
David: Well thank you again Roberto for that and for sharing that there is also a negative
to it and paying attention to that. Id like to actually pass it over to Eric our host and I think
there is their some question [from our audience] on the dashboard.
Eric Troth: Im just trying to weave this together in light of what's been discussed in our
conference so far. We had thought leaders like Buzz Holling yesterday in the morning and
notions of vested interests who are oppositional to the experimental energies. I think
Elisabet Sahtouris was picking up on that also, today about the more conservative
preserving what's been working, and thats necessary. And its also about the need for the
new. Roberto, I was hearing you say just a moment ago about being sure that the changes
that were advocating are the changes that society needs. It seems like there is a balancing
act between how do we hold on to the things that are working, without getting too tightly
gripped on those, and how can we let in the space for something new to emerge, and not
leave other important things behind. To tie that in with a metaphor that we're using at this
conference about the bee hives and bees, two kinds of bees are the conformity enforcers
and diversity generators. Im curious if you could expand on that notion a little bit further
please.
Roberto: Thats very interesting. Because the diversity generators could be from several
perspectives. That why its important to work in a stratified way. Just for a moment,
picture in your mind a city of a 1,500,000 people, and we might have 20 different strata,
with 20 different realities, futures, needs, expectations, so what is good for one strata,
maybe is not the best for the other strata. So we should avoid the one-size-fits-all solution.
With the metaphor of the human hive, the diversity generators should be aligned with the
needs of the strata, of that part of the city. Also the conformity enforcers, the types of
things we should preserve should also be in balance, in order to move forward to our
desired future. Ideally, that desired future should be built with the participation of that
strata. Yes, I think it is a very, very good, big, challenge, to keep the right balance in order
that the city and each part of the city, the strata that I mentioned, are moving forward to
achieve better living conditions for all the citizens.
Eric: Thank you Roberto. One thing I want to bring into the follow-up a little bit more on
this is that I know that you and Bjarni are now down in Dallas, Texas, both flying in from
different places to be with Don Beck in his Spiral Dynamics Confab. We have not
explicitly gotten into that model yet, but Dr. Beck will be a guest on Wednesday September
19
th
, he will be our thought leader. Since both of you are there at the Confab, I wonder if
you could bring in some ideas forth from Spiral Dynamics with respect to this notion of a
stratified society. That model seems to be very useful as a way to think about that. How
might you give an overview for anybody who might not be as familiar with that model?
Bjarni: Maybe Ill give it a try. Lets start by looking at that in terms of the worldviews of
different people, different groups and different cultures. It is extremely important to see
where is the center of gravity in that culture, and where it is leading to, and how can you
strengthen the elements that are needed to go forward in a constructive way. Just to
mention an example, in the beginning I mentioned that Iceland is a young democracy, so
its the opposite problem as Mexico. The institutions are rather young and flexible, and
their flexibility means that we are not so straightforward, we are not adhering to
standards. So we need a cultural element injected into our system which brings more
discipline and stricter appearance to rules, etc. Knowing that its very important for
decision makers to say OK, how can we strengthen those cultural elements, there might be
a different cultural element, which is the need to express ones self, often in innovation
and changes. Again, that is something that we need to know, how is the state of affairs
with the different strata of worldviews, or centers of gravity, so when you are trying to
deliberate on the results from an inquiry, or the views of someone, you say OK, we need to
take and put them in the context of the correct state of the system. Its difficult to go
through and explain the theory in detail. Don will do a much better job in doing that. The
point Im making is that this theory allows us to see the prevailing way of thinking within
a community, and it allows us to understand where is that leading to, if nothing changes?
Or, what can that lead to? Then what can we do to strengthen it, so that the system will
accept those changes that are going to be done? Thats an extremely important part of the
information, in doing what Roberto was explaining, about trying the right changes, or the
best changes for the system.
Eric: Let me just bring here another question from one of our audience, and maybe it will
tie all together in a little bit more concrete way. Terry is asking: What kinds of issues do
people in assemblies raise as being the most important to them, and what change do they
want? Im thinking how that question can be answered with reference to these stratified
layers of society. That might make it a little more concrete.
Roberto: Ok, in the case of Len, its very interesting, the result of the assembly. Because
the people that gathered that day spent a full day working together, and they focused a lot
of attention on the groups of people with less favorable conditions. So the people focused
more on the poverty conditions and the belief that we, as citizens, and also as authorities,
should provide a bridge to the development of the less developed groups. The groups that
have more problems with housing, food, education, etc. Because as I mentioned, in our city
there are groups of people living in very, very bad conditions. So they recognized that we
need better streets and better highways, and better public transportation, but also they
recognized that its very important to address the problems of those kinds of people,
because the people that are very vulnerable are also the most likely to support or to
incorporate the gangs of the drug dealers. So that was one of the results of the assembly
that we did last June.
Bjarni: I could add perhaps from my experiences which tells us that people know more
than they might believe. Most of the important issues that were being selected by
participants were exactly those to strengthen the democratic system, to strengthen the
institutions like the judicial system, the three-tiers of legal, executive and judicial power,
and the three distinctions between them, and ethics, and so on. A lot of issues came up in
that sense, which told us that people knew what needed to be done, in a way. So just as an
example, the number one value that was chosen was honesty. A great majority of all the
attendees brought that up as the number one priority.
Eric: What kind of things are we learning here today, if we step back from the process we
have engaged in? What are the take-away ideas that were generated out of this
discussion?
David: What continues to surface for me, in both Bjarnis and Robertos work, is that it is
about transparency and building trust. The transparency of bringing people together,
being open for that conversation, working through any fear that may be there, and
allowing it to unfold and continue to grow. Again, this continually reminded me of the fact
that you can put the question out there, and do not assume people are afraid to ask and
answer those questions, and to be able to bring them together and share, I think it's just
fantastic. So for me, its just the transparency and bringing people together, the
collaboration side of this.
Bjarni: I absolutely agree with David.
Roberto: I want to add something additional. I think that the life conditions are very
important to make this kind of thing happen. In the case of Iceland, its quite different,
because they had extreme life conditions when the financial system went bankrupt. That
awoke, I think in an easier way, the necessity to do these kinds of assemblies and the
participation of the citizens. When a city is not in such extreme life conditions, it takes a
little bit more time in order to find the door that could be open to start doing these kinds
of things. I mentioned that I got the alliance with the Citizen Observatory, but before that,
maybe two years before, I was knocking on a lot of doors, and many of those doors were
closed. Maybe because I didnt know the right way in, and maybe they didnt see at the
time the necessity to do these kinds of things. But finally the observatory opened the door
and supported the idea, and helped a lot to organize the citizen symposium. But if the
people in this audience are thinking, as I mentioned before, to do something like this in
their city, I think that the experience that we have shared, Bjarni and myself, could help as
a roadmap. But they must be aware that they are going to build their own road map,
depending on the life conditions of their city.
Bjarni: Just to close and elaborate on what David said, because thats very important
information. Because one must also regard this as a process of change, not to change
things, but to change oneself, to change how the systems operate. In this sense, I think its
a very important point to keep in mind that it takes time. But I think its a learning
experience that has the potential of transforming the way the system feels and thinks.
Thats my belief, at least.
Eric: Thank you. I really appreciate the reminder of keeping the vision on the whole
system, and when we are talking about change on this scale, I think those models such as
Spiral Dynamics allow us to see those larger patterns.

Integral City eLab November 11, 2012
1

Gaias Reflective Organ: Integral Intel Inside
What is an Integral Map and where are we implementing
Integral Maps for individual leadership?
Speaker: Ken Wilber
September 11, 2012

Ken Wilber is the world's leading integral philosopher. The author of
such titles as A Brief History of Everything (1996) and A Theory of Everything
(2000), his philosophy integrates body, mind, soul, and Spirit with self,
culture, and nature. Integral philosophy is influencing fields as diverse as
politics and spirituality, psychology and business, medicine, and art. Ken
has written 16 books exploring different facets of human development and
cultural evolution. In 2000, he founded the Integral Institute to support and
promote integral thinking. Ken has inspired both his own boomer generation and the
generations who follow to help create connections between individuals and groups who
are seeking to enact an integral vision in their day-to-day livespeople yearning for true
integration, genuine transformation, and whole-hearted communion.
Ken Wilber: In the course of this book [Marilyn Hamiltons, Integral City: Evolutionary
Intelligences for the Human Hive], were looking at, essentially, eight major evolutionary
stages. And, we should say, there are different ways to divide up these strata that weve
been talking about. In developmental psychology there are a couple dozen models, each of
which looks at the strata from a different perspective; all of which have some sort of value.
The major levels that you use, the major strata you use come from the work of Clare
Graves and its elaboration by Don Beck and Chris Cowan. And the eight levels that were
looking at here are: the hearth-based circle of family survival, through the bonding
systems of clan and tribe, to the power struggles of chief and king, to the ordering
authorities of state and place of worship, to the strategic economies of material exchange,
to the accepting embrace of diverse peoples, to the flex and flow of global systems, to a
Gaia honouring of all life. [p. 55]
And, what we find with these levels is that they appear in their own ways in all four
quadrants. So we have these levels showing up in the interior of human individuals [Upper
Left] as certain values and motivations that they have; showing up in the Lower Left,
which well be explaining in a second, the culture or interior of a group which shows up as
worldviews and systems of organizing beliefs and knowledge; to the Lower Right, which is
social systems and institutions, and there it shows up in things like foraging and
Integral City eLab November 11, 2012 2
horticulture and agrarian. These are basic, fundamental structures or patterns of
evolutionary unfolding. And what we find is that they unfold through, at least, these four
major perspectives that weve also been calling quadrants. And thats been an important
understanding, because it allows us to look at evolutionary unfolding through these
different perspectives, and to see the correlations that occur.
This becomes important, because it lets us understand in city development, for example,
how individuals at different strata, what their needs are going to be, what their
motivations are going to be, what their drives are going to be, and to start to look at a city
as a collection not just of human beings with a one size fits all, not just as human beings
with one set of motivations that are identical for everybody, but is a set of individuals of
which there are at least these eight strata, at least eight different motivations, eight
different needs, eight different drives, and realize that getting a city together with a group
of people that are fundamentally really eight different people. Thats a different problem
from just getting together a mass of human beings. This is getting together a mass of eight
different tribes, if you will, and thats entirely more sophisticated, complex, and utterly
important way to look at a city.
Marilyn Hamilton: I couldnt agree more. Sometimes, I really roll my eyes in despair
when I think of how a city is communicated to out of city hall, because each one of those
tribes actually needs to hear things [presented] in a different way, because, as you would
say, they have different motivations and different drivers. And yet, they need to hear those
levels of whats important to them mentioned in why they should do something, or why
something or how something is to unfold.
Ken Wilber: Right.
Marilyn Hamilton: So, this actually is maybe easy for you and I to say and extremely
challenging to implement, because it means actually having to embrace all these tribes at
the same time and recognize that governance, to be effective, actually has to take this into
consideration. And when it doesnt, its quite ineffective and often completely blindsided.
Ken Wilber: Right. And thats part of this problem that we were talking about earlier with
British Columbia and humanitys sort of blindness to looking at the developmental maps
and models and perspectives that are so important. Human beings really do, I mean
everything in nature starts as an egg and ends up as a chicken, and thats not a one-step
process. Thats not a one-strata process. Thats at least an eight-strata process and, if you
count the minor ones, its 50 minor transformations occurring. And each one of these
transformation gives/has a different motivation, a different worldview, a different set of
needs, a different set of moral values. And all of these have to be taken into account if you
are going to do anything like govern or manage a mass of human beings, let alone educate
them or any number of items that human beings require. And the continuing lack of
recognition of these different fundamental levels of any of the models, whether its Robert
Kegans or Jane Loevingers or Carol Gilligans or Clare Graves, I dont really care which, if
this culture recognized at least one of them! They all essentially cover the same territory
of human growth and development.
But, we dont even do that. And so what we get instead is these ongoing culture wars
where three of the major levels of development which are, fundamentalist/religious, what
Clare Graves called absolutistic/saintly thinking, and then a modern/scientific
worldview, and then a pluralistic/postmodern worldview These are not just ideas or
viewpoints that people have. These are actual stages of development. The fundamental
components of these different opinions are actually stages of development. And yet we
show no recognition of that, no understanding of that, no realization of that. We just have
each of these stages thinking that all of the others are completely wrong and stupid and
idiotic. And that is as wrong and as stupid and as idiotic an idea as I have ever heard. But it
wont go away! [laughter] And its irritating as hell!
Marilyn Hamilton: And as I mentioned, I think its core to shifting into some new
governance. I do think that cities are going to force us to invent new governance because,
as you say, these tribal wars are on the news pages every day.
Ken Wilber: Yeah.
Marilyn Hamilton: And you know, Im watching, in the province of Quebec in Canada, the
students are rioting there. We watched last year the revolution in the Arab Spring. We see
whats going on in EU, as Greece and the other countries are resisting the whole economic
impact/influence of their collective decisions. And each one of these locations, if you read
the small print or sometimes the large print, but the police chief is saying: Actually, if
havent got a clue what to do. Weve tried being lenient, and that doesnt work. Weve tried
being really forceful, and that doesnt work. And theyre really mapping out the territory
of the big gap of not recognizing you cant ever do one size fits all. You actually have to
have a multiplicity of strategies in your kit bag. And thats, I think, what the discernment of
using a developmental framework for the city enables us to start to appreciate.
Ken Wilber: Right. And this is the point in the book where you start to go into some of
these maps and models that are minimally necessary to get a more Integral or holistic
view of the city or any phenomenon, but certainly the city. You begin by saying: It
appears that the lessons from history teach us that, to some degree, human cities have
mastered the flow of matter and energy. However, it appears that our vanished cities of
the past lost touch with the information that could alert them to their impending demise.
We might also propose that their connections to information became distorted.
And this is the area where Ken Wilber contributes elegantly to the integral
discourse. ...Wilber gives us the lenses to reunify connections amongst the visible world of
matter and energy and the invisible worlds of consciousness and culture. His integral
vision demonstrates the co-arising, co-connected realities we have fragmented into
individual versus collective and/or internal versus external solitudes. His internal map
integrates integrity and integration, holons and wholeness and stages and states. He
virtually provides an integral operating system and charting tool that offers a common
language to bridge realities and talk about life conditions that require translation,
transformation and transcendence. [p. 58]
Thank you very much.
Our separate subsystem bureaucracies for our city management, healthcare systems,
schooling (at all levels) and workplaces remain unarticulated or distantly linked at best. A
top-down view of our city dance floor indicates considerable chaos.
Is it any wonder that we cannot see the city as a single, wholly integrated and informing
system that depends on the interconnection amongst these subsystems to serve the well-
being of its inhabitants? Ironically, within each of these subsystems (city management,
healthcare systems, schooling and workplaces), we are developing progressively more
complex information systems to tell us everything we need to know about bricks and
mortar, epidemiology, grading systems and performance management. But we are not
seeing the integral nature of each of these subsystems nor the integral informing
connections amongst them. For the most part we are generating and measuring
quantitative, objective information to give us reports on the material outcomes of these
subsystems. But we are failing to acknowledge the qualitative, subjective information that
conveys the realities of our internal, subjective and inner-subjective experience. [p.59]
And that is ironic; indeed, that we continue to generate certain amounts and types of
information, but continue to overlook the Integral, interconnected nature of the entire city,
itself.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well, you know, one of my eclectic backgrounds is being an
accountant. So, one thing Ive come to appreciate in looking at all this research is, were
not short of data.
Ken Wilber: Yeah. [laughter]
Marilyn Hamilton: What were short of is strategies to actually mine and interpret and
integrate the data.
Ken Wilber: Yeah.
Marilyn Hamilton: So also, prior to being an accountant, Im also a student of literature
and culture. And that is what was alive in me, this qualitative value of life. And the model,
when I actually started to acquire an integral frame, I woke up one day and realized: Ah!
Each one of the quadrants allows for a different metric.
Ken Wilber: Yes.
Marilyn: And that means we can actually use some fuzzy logic to notice these different
metrics are actually informing one another. And its not just that they are separated from
another. They actually can inform one another.
Ken: Right.
Marilyn Hamilton: And so, each one of the sectors in the city that you mentioned,
education or health care or recreation or workplace, they can all be examined through an
Integral model. Each one of them has qualities as well as quantitative measures that can
tell us whether they, themselves, are functioning well, whether theyre actually serving the
people that are using them. But, I dont know, I just cant see any cities that are yet using
the invitations from where, city hall, to say: Look, we need to sit down with the education
system, the health care system, the different belief systems in the city, and our different
workplaces, and have a real conversation about how were all contributing to the overall
wellbeing of the city. And its like were lobotomized.
Ken Wilber: Yeah.
Marilyn Hamilton: And so the potential is there. And where I see hope, though, is in
smaller scale conversations, you know, dialogic exchanges, where people are actually able
to at least shift into a space where they can hear each other across the sectors. But, there
are a few mayors I would point to around the world who are starting to actually act as if
the city is a whole. And Ive seen through work that Ive done at global Sustainable Cities
Forum and the candidates who submitted their cities as being the most-sustainable,
looking at their indicators, I never came across one city that had what I would call a full set
of integral indicators.
Ken Wilber: Yeah, terrific.
Marilyn Hamilton: But if I looked at all of the cities together around the world, and I did
chart them out on a matrix I have, I could see we are very close to actually identifying a
whole set of indicators if we work together.
Ken Wilber: Yeah.
Marilyn: So, were just on that edge, just on the edge of being able to tip over into
becoming a good deal wiser than we currently are in practice.
Ken Wilber: Well, lets indeed hope that thats the case and that we do continue to push
forward in that direction. You discuss four maps, all of which give us some slice of
wholeness of the city or any phenomena we want to use. And theyre all important. Im
going to go through them, briefly.
Map 1: The Four-quadrant Eight-level Map of Reality
The integral map is a four-quadrant map that shows the city has both an outer life that is
physical, tangible and objective, as well as an inner life that is conscious, intangible and
subjective. It owes its clarity and growing popularity to Ken Wilber who first charted it
and has extensively developed it for use in many knowledge domains. This map shows
that reality in the city arises from both an individual and a collective expression. The
intersection of these two polarities reveals four realities
That would be the inside and the outside of the individual and the collective.
that we can label as:
1. Upper Left (UL): [which is the inside of the] individualinterior/ internal/
subjective/intangible
2. Lower Left (LL): [which is the inside of the] collectiveinterior/internal/
intersubjective/intangible
3. Upper Right (UR): [which is the outside of the] individualexterior/ external/
objective/tangible
4. Lower Right (LR): [thats the outside of the] collectiveexterior/ external/
interobjective/tangible The four-quadrant map is a map of city perspectives.
Each quadrant represents the view from a different lens: I, We, It and Its. Each of the four
perspectives has produced a cluster of domains of knowledge about the city. The Upper
Left quadrant holds the knowledge bases of the aesthetics and fine arts. The Lower Left
holds the knowledge bases of the humanities. The Upper Right holds the knowledge bases
of the life sciences. The Lower Right holds the knowledge bases of the hard sciences [and
system sciences]. Thus have our institutions of higher learning organized the knowledge
about the transcendent patterns of universal information: Beauty in the Upper Left
aesthetics and fine arts (I); Goodness in the Lower Left humanities (We); and Truth in the
Upper and Lower Right life and hard sciences (It/Its).
But more than the knowledge content of our reality, the four-quadrant map discloses the
four points of view of city dwellers from all world cultures. In the Upper Left, the first
person, Subjective I, appreciates the beauty of life, the aesthetic quality of living systems.
This aesthetic, often hidden from view in the modern city, was more demonstrated and
honoured in ancient cities, where the scale of human systems was more coherent with the
built city. Another description of the Subjective I is the psychological (psycho) reality of
the city. The Subjective I feels inspired and uplifted by the aesthetic pleasure of walking
down a street lined with cherry blooms, imagining the excitement of expressing ideas at
the nearby coffee shop.
In the Lower Left, the second person Intersubjective We appreciates the Goodness in life.
This point of view reveals the moral qualities of life choices that are necessary on every
level of human existence and association. These intersubjective perspectives are woven
from the everyday stories we tell each other in every informal connection of daily life.
They also reflect the tales and myths we create to pass along our archetypal experiences.
They represent the formal laws we create for the smooth operation of civic society. These
Goodness perspectives become the crucibles that hold our Subjective Beauty and inform
us what is accepted by critical numbers of people in our city experience as good or bad,
beautiful or ugly. Another description of the Intersubjective We is the cultural reality of
the city. The Intersubjective We share and discuss their human desires about experiencing
the release of stress through greenness in the city and make a moral choice to plant cherry
trees on the street, to shade their coffee meeting place, instead of opting for efficiency and
paving over the median. In the Upper Right, the third person Objective It appreciates the
Truth of life. This perspective demonstrates the actions of life that support material
survival in the city. The Objective It is the arbiter of material energy of the city that rests
on the basics of material life: water, food, waste flow, shelter, clothing. From the Objective
It, we calculate our individual ecological footprints. And without attention to the well-
being of the Objective It, the quality of the built life in the city fails utterly. Another
description of the Objective It is the biological (bio-) reality of the city. The Objective It
biologically hears the wind in the cherry trees and sees, smells, touches and tastes the
blossoms and the fruit.
In the Lower Right, the Interobjective Its conveys the Truth that emerges from the
material systems that support the Interobjective Its individual existences but by
combining multiple material needs, efficient systems can be developed that deliver water
and food, dispose of waste, build and maintain shelter and produce clothing. From the
intelligence of the Interobjective Its domains, the artifact of the built city emerges, thus
creating a combined footprint with geological coordinates and an extended footprint that
represents the energy consumed for a large number of people to sustain themselves in
one city location. Another description of the Interobjective Its is the social reality of the
city. The Interobjective Its is the parks department who physically planted and waters the
cherry trees.
Thus each of the four quadrants reveals partial but useful knowledge maps and real,
diverse perspectives that reflect different ways of knowing. In addition, this map shows
both the inextricable linkages of one quadrant to all others and all quadrants to any one or
combination of some. In so doing, it also reveals the inadequacy of the pursuit of
knowledge through any combination of perspectives that doesnt include all four
quadrants.
Therefore, the four-quadrant map clearly shows us the dilemma city dwellers have faced
since the major rise of the city in the last 300 to 400 years. In this same period, the West
agreed to split the study of knowledge into left and right quadrantswith the
church/spiritual practices (and eventually humanities) on the left and the physical and
biological sciences on the right. By coming to this agreement, church and state
dichotomized our understanding of human systems of all kinds, including the city. This
split underlies the siloing of domains of human knowledge and the failure to grasp the
interconnections of all knowledge content and ways of knowing (ontologies and
epistemologies). This split lies at the root of our looking at the city as less than a whole
human systemas merely a collection of partsor departments.
This map also discloses eight levels of developmental evolution that occur in each
quadrant. These correspond to the levels of consciousness identified by Graves and are
discussed in...subsequent chapters. [pp. 60-61, 64-65]
So thats the first of the maps, looking in the four quadrants and eight levels. And with
these eight levels, these are actually levels of, among other things, multiple intelligences.
So we really have up to a dozen or so developmental lines, including cognitive and moral
and emotional and interpersonal and kinesthetic and musical and so on. And each of those
developmental lines develops through these developmental levels.
And so, that gives us a coherent picture of the development of levels and lines through
these major quadrants. And of course the idea is that, working with any issue or problem
or phenomena, we want to include all quadrants and all levels and lines. And this is of
course, as you pointed out, exactly what isnt happening. And not only is it not happening
over periods of historical time, its been, in a sense, tabooed. Seeing these things all as
existing together and as part of a single, whole system is exactly what, in a sense, youre
not allowed to do. This is still true today in our universities. Youre not allowed to put
together aesthetics and science. Its just not somethings thats done. And yet, of course,
they are inextricably interconnected. So this is part of the real problem that were facing in
working cities, is working with our underlying maps and models of reality, itself, because
the maps and models are fragmented. Theyre partial and theyre broken. And so, our
solutions continue to be fragmented, partial, and broken. And thats a real problem.
Marilyn Hamilton: Luckily, Ken, there are diversity generators like you and me.
Ken Wilber: Indeed! [laughter]
Marilyn Hamilton: [laughter] Hopefully, our having taken the courage to say, There is
another way to look at it, is starting a trend.
Ken Wilber: Yeah, that is indeed the hope. And, Map 2: The Nested Holarchy of City
Systems. And holarchy is simply a name for hierarchy but since hierarchy is actually
made of holons, holarchy reminds us that actualization of hierarchies are not dominator
hierarchies. There are two types of hierarchies one is bad (and those are the dominator
hierarchies), and one is good (and those are actualization or growth hierarchies). And
virtually all of nature grows via actualization hierarchies. So atoms to molecules to cells to
organisms, eggs to chickens, and so on, those are all nested hierarchies or holarchies.
Map 2: The Nested Holarchy of City Systems
The city as a human system is a nest of systems; one cannot just look at the city as a
whole or integral system without recognizing that it is made up of a series of whole
systems. Gradually in the last hundred years, some scientists have come to realize that
their ways of seeing reality have much in common with certain deep spiritual perspectives.
Both scientific and spiritual domains have reframed their traditional worldviews from one
described as being the sum of many parts, to one recognized as being entirely holistic.
Different authors and knowledge centers have gained lenses for recognizing that the
universe comprises systems of systems of systems each one of them a wholeness in
itself. Some talk of centers, holons, holarchies or nested holons or panarchies. Regardless
of terminology, each observer sees that human systems, as a subset of natural, living
systems, are also whole systems (each made up of subsystems) that have gradually
become more nested and more complex. [p. 65]
And thats a view that simply has got to catch on more. Its starting to, like you say, but we
need a lot more of that understanding.
Marilyn Hamilton: One of the things I find most useful about this map is that it allows
people to create, as they call them, tables of stakeholders. So you can actually use both
maps, one with the quadrants and this map, to say, Do we have representatives of the
whole system in the room? Because if were missing core stakeholders, we will not get a
whole story out of whatever we want to explore or solve. This is a very, very powerful use,
from just a design perspective, of both the maps.
Ken Wilber: And what we find, what psychologists have used in frameworks like the
AQAL system (all quadrants and all levels), is that individuals tend to inhabit, to come
from, either different quadrants, people will tend to habitually look at the world through
just one quadrant, or people are at a single level or strata of development, and so they will
look at the world through just that level. You have at least eight levels through four
perspectives. And all of those already exist. Theyre already out there. There are human
beings looking at the world in one of those, 4 x 8, 32 ways.
It might sound complex to say we have to take those into account. But the point is, theyre
already out there bumping into each other. Theyre already out there with their own
demands and needs, and desires, and hopes, and so on. So our only choice is either to
ignore them or to hunker down and start to take them into account, and start to build
habitats in which those different viewpoints can find a comfortable existence.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think it is possible to do that. Thats one thing that the integral frame
enables one to consider is, What does a habitat that would allow for the prosperity of all
in this human hive look like? And again, thats a great koan, because theres no pat
answer for that at all. But we do know, from our research, what are the third-principle
value sets and motivators and belief systems at these different strata. And as I mentioned
before, our major cities now really contain all of them, because people have moved to
cities from all different parts of the world. So we have to take this into consideration, in
some reasonable, logical, AQAL way, or we will just continue, for the rest of our species
existence, to have a shouting match as everyone tries to say, Im right! Im right! Im right!
And I think at the core, even when people hear that or say that, they know there must be a
different way, they just dont know what it is.
So taking this approach to the city is really taking a design approach to the city. And in just
trying to emerge a life practice that embraces as much as possible; to transcend and
include as you develop your own capacities; how to even hold a non-anxious presence
around all of this cacophony is, I think, a real huge developmental challenge for anybody
who wants to take a leadership role in the city. But its sure a great life practice!
Ken Wilber: Yeah! [laugher]
Marilyn Hamilton: Youre facing it every day. And you need to actually face it both with
respect, and curiosity, and, I would say, a lot of awe, and a great deal more humility, even.
Ken Wilber: Right. Well put.
Map 3: The Scalar Fractal Relationship of Micro, Meso and Macro Human Systems
The third map of the city that casts light on its wholeness is one arising from the insights
of non-linear mathematics. Fractal geometry reveals the algorithms of natural systems
the beautiful, repeated patterns that result from the application of simple rules of
relationship and association that apply at multiple levels of scale. Figure 3.9 illustrates this
and conveys how capacity development in individuals contributes to capacity in families,
organizations and communities. [p. 66]
And a fractal is a simple repetition of a pattern or a relationship at different scales. And we
talked about earlier, nature tends to find something that works, then she tends to repeat it.
And if its at a different scale, if its bigger or smaller, then she just makes it bigger or
smaller. And that tends to be one of the major rules that we find operating in evolution,
and so its certainly one of the major rules that we would want to incorporate if you were
looking at how to engineer or even understand a city.
Marilyn Hamilton: One of the ways that I discovered this map was actually teaching
through a competency-based system at Royal Roads University in the leadership program,
so we had to map out how do competencies develop. And you probably wouldnt be
surprised to learn that I had to frame it up in an integral way. But I could see the
competencies emerge in a high performing leadership student. And then I could see them
work together in really, super high-performing teams. When they finished working in, say,
a residency, then they were released to the rest of the world, to their own communities.
And a lot of them would remark on how that shift was really quite a challenge for them,
because they were no longer working with peer groups who were developing the same
kinds of competency sets. They were back into this world where there were multiple
levels of peoples competencies and capacities that they were interconnecting with, in
their workplace, in their communities, their homes, even.
Then when they even stepped back further and saw how the individuals, the teams, the
communities, the organizations all started to interconnect with one another, they realized,
oh, this is really much more complex , than being simply in the bubble of a university
residency where we can really focus on what were working on. But it allowed me also to
see, this fractal nature of development. And its a very interesting map that a lot of people
can make head nor tail of. But I had a nurse as a student some time ago who looked at it
and she said, Oh! I recognize this map. It looks just the development of a zygote.
Ken Wilber: [laughter]
Marilyn Hamilton: And so, exactly, I laughed just like you and just said, Theres
fractalness. And she recognized it instantly! And its how life does actually learn its way
through the different developmental levels. So, its a very useful map that I also remark
helped me not only, you know, I just described what happens when you dilute
competencies by putting them into larger and larger social holons, but also its a map that
allowed me to see, you know, what we were talking about resilience before is, you actually,
in order to change a system, you dont need to change 100 per cent of it.
Ken Wilber: Right.
Marilyn Hamilton: The way those diversity generators work, the way we discovered that
pattern of ease is, it turns out, you only need to change about 10 to 15 per cent of it,
somewhere in there, and then the whole rest of the system comes along with it.
Ken Wilber: Okay, now Ive been using that percentage for several years now. Where did
you get it?
Marilyn Hamilton: Its out of the complexity literature.
Ken Wilber: Is it?
Marilyn Hamilton: Umhmm, yeah. You know where I first learned it is, I was working
with the Y2K bug remediation in the late 90s.
Ken Wilber: Right.
Marilyn Hamilton: And if you recall, there was a great threat that everything in the world
and all the lights would stop working. So there was this major over-compensation. Almost
100 per cent of the world corrected for that, because we thought the lights wouldnt stay
on at the year 2000. And so, I learned it through studying the complexity literature. It was
a big laugh, actually. I sat down after working with communities and realized, Wow! We
did way, way, way more over-correction than 10-15 per cent.
Ken Wilber: Because what we have here is, we get that shift, but theres still only 10 per
cent of the population at the particular level. So, for example, the way I arrived at this was
just by looking at different shifts in stages, historically. As for example, when about 10 per
cent of the population first reached orange in Europe and America, we had the French and
American revolutions. We had the rise of representative democracy. We had the abolition
of slavery, and of monarchy. These are all values that come from orange. They come from
the modern level. Theyre not values that come from amber or the blue v-meme, or come
from red. They only come from orange.
And yet, when about 10 per cent of the population reached orange, that was enough to
cause a tipping point and to have these orange values sort of seep through the culture, so
that we would write an American constitution, and we would fight a revolution, we would
get rid of slavery, even though only 10 per cent of the population actually holds that value.
So theres this weird seepage that occurs. And so we still know that when ten percent of
the population reached orange, 90 per cent of the population still wasnt at orange. It was
still at amber or red or some of the lower stages and did not, themselves, directly hold
those values. But all of a sudden, they came to find those values somehow acceptable, or
somehow something that was okay with them.
I think of something simple like, in the 1950s in male and female ethics, a guy at work, a
womens leaning over, getting a drink of water at the water faucet, and the guy walks by
and slaps her on the ass and says, looking good today, or something like that. That was
acceptable in 1950. In 1970, youd get fired for that. So even though the person thats sort
of a green value, and even though the person that would never now slap a woman on the
ass might be at red or might be at a blue v-meme, they still somehow soak up the value.
Theyve somehow internalized it to some degree even though theyre not, themselves, at
the level that is creating that value. Dont you find that interesting?
Marilyn: Well I do. I think its intriguing. And I remember, probably it was though Meg
Wheatley and the [cries] of complexity literatures that she was interconnected with that
I probably picked up the 10-12 per cent shift that was needed. But I think it also shows up
again in the interdisciplinary resilience literature. And what happens is the feedback loops.
When you have 10-15 percent of the system that has changed, then the feedback loops
that occur, and if you think about the integral model and all the different ways one could
define feedback loops within all the quadrants and the levels, then they start to feed on
themselves. They amplify themselves. And thats why this is a magic point.
You know, Malcolm Gladwell has talked about it as the tipping point and popularized the
perspective from his book. But it is just a natural occurrence of feedback looping, and
eventually the system just shifts. Its one of those things that nature has figured out - an
efficiency of energy use. If there is enough amplification in the system that can sustain this,
itll just shift
Ken Wilber: Right. Even though a number of people remain at those lower levels, theres
a shift. 10-15 per cent of the population reaches that leading edge, but the lower levels
dont all shift up. The people at red, they dont all become orange. Thats whats so
interesting to me about it.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well, I think we could probably spend at least another two hours just
examining this. But probably, one also has to look at where are the power leverage points
in the system. Who is it that has shifted? Were all watching with a great deal of interest
that cultural creative who is in, percentage-wise, in this zone. And there are all kinds of
indications that they are very active right now in ways that actually may well cause the
tipping point in the system.
Ken Wilber: Right.
Marilyn Hamilton: But theres no guarantee about it. There is never any guarantee. Its all,
this is happening within life conditions. And so, the feedback looping can also encounter
situations where it isnt amplified, where somehow, for some reason, its dampened and
then this doesnt emerge.
Ken Wilber: The good news about all of this is, however it actually occurs and whether it
always occurs, its certainly an optimistic stance considering that what we are looking at is
the possibility of the emergence of second tier and having, in the modern developed
countries, somewhere around 20-25 per cent of the population being at green. So as we
start to look at second tier and we see maybe five per cent of the population at second tier,
all told, it means that we dont need to have 20, 30 or 40 per cent of population at integral
levels in order to get some integral values through the culture. All we need is five more per
cent.
Marilyn Hamilton: Yeah, thats right.
Ken Wilber: And thats good news.
Marilyn Hamilton: If we think about the subtle energy field and all the things that were
doing to grow that now, Ive seen some research in the past little while about the
acceleration of the time factors of change for, say, generation zed. Theyre making changes
in their brain wiring, simple because the world that theyve been born into has real
growth energies as well as a good deal subtle and causal energies that are impacting them,
and theyre becoming far more attuned to them.
Ken Wilber: Right. Well it is indeed an optimistic possibility and a little bit of a surprising
twist that evolution has thrown in here.
Map 4: The Complex Adaptive Structures of Change
This final map conveys the stages of change in the city. As a living system, the human
system in the city is constantly in the flux of adapting to its life conditions that arise from
its external situation in a climatic-geological location. They also arise from the internal
situation where the citizens develop consciousness capacities to adapt to the processing of
matter, energy and information related to bio-psycho-cultural-social needs. In fact, both
external and internal adaptiveness must occur simultaneously. [p. 67]
And thats something that we generally find is, a tetra-mesh is required where changes
have to occur in all four quadrants if the change is going to stick, if its going to get any
traction. And thats an important discovery, because previously we looked at change and
just selected, usually, one quadrant and one technology in one quadrant. We might
oftentimes try just changing the Lower Right quadrant and try to change the economic
base of a culture. But without also working with a cultures worldview and its values and
its motivations (Lower Left material), its not going to stick. So its one of the advantages of
these maps is, its telling us about aspects of reality that, heretofore, we might not have
considered. And theyre not saying you have to think this way, its just saying: Have you
considered this? Have you looked at it from this angle? Have you looked at it from this
angle? And have you looked at it from this angle? Because if you havent, youre probably
going to get in trouble. Because those angles are out there, and they are having an impact
now. So, becoming aware of them is probably a good idea.
Marilyn Hamilton: Indeed. And I observe all the time that when we actually can turn up
with all of these different views and levels complexity and organization at the table, then
we have an enormously better chance of actually emerging something that people buy into,
because they have made it their own. They are not having it exporting from some other
place or parachuted in, which is sort of the way engineering change was done in the 60s,
70s, 80s. And gradually we realized: You know, it looked good on paper. And it lasted
for maybe about three months, but it never had any continuity to it. And so, we had to go
back to the drawing board and say, Well, what didnt work? Well, if you look at the
different organizational complexities in Map 4, in fact, therere rarely lined up as nicely as
they are on that map, which kind of shows a genealogy of the organizations. And they
coexist in all kinds of combinations, and connections, and collaborations these days, with
lots of gaps in-between, because we dont ask the questions of: How is it that different
forms of organization can actually be in service to what it is we are trying to achieve,
rather than mixed up in a heap?
Ken Wilber: Right. Exactly

Integial City eLab 0ctobei 9, 2u12
1

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Speakeis - Baiiett Biown & Yene Assegiu
Bost - Naiilyn Bamilton
Septembei 11, 2u12

>/? @"//(,, @/;91 specializes in leaueiship anu change management
foi sustainability. Be has woikeu on foui continents, helpeu uevelop
anu launch a uozen companies, consultancies, anu Nu0s, built coipoiate
univeisities, coacheu senioi executives, anu ueliveieu leaueiship
initiatives foi ulobal 1uuu leaueis. Be is an auvisoiy boaiu membei foi
Integial City Neshwoiks Inc. anu seveial othei global, integial
oiganizations that focus on uiban sustainability issues. Baiiett's Ph.B. anu Nastei's
uegiees aie in Buman anu 0iganizational Systems fiom Fieluing uiauuate 0niveisity.
Baiiett's iecent uoctoial ieseaich exploieu how sustainability leaueis with complex
woiluviews engage in change initiatives.

>/? A(1( B%%(0#4 is a Tiansfoimative Leaueiship Coach, Consultant
woiking with civil society aiounu the Woilu foi close to 2u yeais. Bei
Boctoial ieseaich, in Tiansfoimation Leaining anu Change fiom
Califoinia Institute of Integial Stuuies, aimeu at gatheiing leaueiship
wisuom, thiough one to one inteiviews with Afiican Beaus of States anu
senioi leaueis. Bei book !"##$%&'($) +,$% -&%(./ (2uu9), aigues how
Bevelopment AIB woulu benefit fiom using an integial appioach. Bei
seconu book 0+%1$# 2+# #3$ 45/%%+6) (2u11) looks into the social impact of wai tiiggeieu
exile on families, which she tells thiough hei own stoiy. Yene just staiteu, 73$ 43+'/
8+95/2:. An integially infoimeu vessel to piomote integially infoimeu global leaueiship
minuset; to cieate ieseaich anu publications oppoitunities; anu to avail a platfoim foi
collective leaining thiough global integial community inteiaction. She cuiiently iesiues in
Beijing, China.

Integial City eLab 0ctobei 9, 2u12 2
7"/#*C1 D":#*,;1: Touay is a uay that I want to set the context of it, being Septembei the
11
th
on, as you just pointeu out, this 11
th
session anu this seconu week of the confeience of
which we'ie tiying to uiscovei a new futuie foi the city, how might we uesign a new
opeiating system foi it.
The theme foi this week I calleu ;/(/<) =$&'$.#(,$ >%1/2? @2#$1%/' @2)(A$. uaia's ieflective
oigan comes fiom }ames Lovelock's iuea that humans aie uaia's ieflective oigan, anu I
think that inuiviuuals aie cells in uaia's ieflective oigan, anu that cities aie the tiue
ieflective oigan, anu that we have an oigan system aiounu the woilu when we think of all
of oui cities togethei.
The theme foi this inteiview is 63/# /2A 63$%$ /%$ 6$ A$)(12(21 (2#$1%/' (2#$''(1$2.$ (2)(A$
+"% .(#($), anu we just finisheu in the eailiei session touay having a uialogue with Ken
Wilbei. What we lookeu at was the way that I uefine integial intelligence in my book. I say
that integial intelligence uses foui essential maps of city life. Foi oui auuience now oi foi
those listening latei, if you go to the website anu you look unuei expo live events foi uay
foui, you will actually be able to uownloau a copy of those maps |see following 2 pagesj, so
foi you visual leaineis you can actually follow along anu see what it is that I'm going to
uesciibe in the foui maps. The foui maps incluue a foui-quauiant peispectival view of the
city, its bio-psycho-cultuial-social life. The seconu is the nesteu holaiachy of city systems.
The thiiu map is looking at the city thiough scalai anu fiactal ielationships at multiple
scales, micio, mezzo, anu macio, of human systems. Anu the fouith is the complex
auaptive stiuctuies of evolutionaiy oiganizations.
Now, that might all sounu like iathei technical gobbleuy-goop to a lot of eais, so I've
inviteu two leauing uesigneis who aie actually applying this intelligence, paiticulaily to
leaueiship, as it ielates to city uesign. So, without fuithei auo, let me intiouuce oui
piesenteis foi touay:
Fiistly let me intiouuce Bi. Baiiett Biown. I fiist met Baiiett at the Integial anu Ecology
anu Sustainability confeience a numbei of yeais ago, anu have been piouu to use his veiy
cleaily wiitten aiticles on integial sustainability anu teaching sustainable community
uevelopment to my Royal Roau stuuents.
Along with Baiiett, I woulu also like to intiouuce Bi. Yene Assegiu. I fiist met Yene when
she was stuuying anu cieating integial Afiica, anu have always been impiesseu with hei
iesilience on the fiont line of many of uaia's most challenging leaueiship issues. So,
welcome Baiiett anu welcome Yene to the City 2.u 0nline Confeience.
@"//(,,2 Thank you Naiilyn, it's wonueiful to be heie.
A(1(2 Thank you Naiilyn.
7"/#*C12 Well I'm so glau that you coulu join us, Baiiett I believe you aie in San Fiancisco
oi neai theie in Califoinia touay is that iight.

Integial City eLab 0ctobei 9, 2u12 S


@"//(,,2 Yes I am, I'm looking out ovei the San Fiancisco Bay iight now, at the beautiful
Nount Tamalpais, which has been a sacieu mountain in this aiea, foi this city anu this
uiban iegion foi a long time, anu is also wheie mountain biking was inventeu. It's a
beautiful uay heie.
7"/#*C12 Anu Baiiett, you anu I aie both in the Pacific time zone iight now. So we'ie on
one euge of the gieat big Pacific ponu, anu we'ie looking way acioss at Yene who is in
Beijing, anu Yene is actually speaking to us fiom the futuie, because fiom oui time zone
Yene is in tomoiiow. So Yene, we'ie uelighteu that we coulu uownloau you fiom the futuie,
thank you foi being heie. What time of the uay is it in Beijing iight now.
A(1(2 Thank you Naiilyn. It's S:12am on the 12
th
.
7"/#*C12 S:12 in the moining, so thank you Yene. We ueciueu when we put the confeience
togethei that we woulu actually invite oui speakeis to be in ieal time in ielationship to
this hub in the pacific iim heie, anu we felt that it was impoitant foi the auuience to know
that people caie well enough foi mothei Eaith to actually tuin up at times like S:uuam in
the futuie. Thank you Yene. We ieally appieciate it.
We'ie going to uo some sequential inteiviews heie, anu I'm going to stait with Baiiett.
We'ie going to exploie how Baiiett actually uses the integial map in uesigning foi
inuiviuual leaueiship. So Baiiett, heie's a question to just get us going in the conveisation:
Bow uo you use integial maps to give you insight into looking at the vibiancy of
wholeness; anu thinking about leaueiship, how uo we uetect it when we'ie outsiue that
think of the wholeness.
@"//(,,2 Foi me, so much of leauei uevelopment these uays has to uo with an ability to
become moie iesponsive to the complexity anu the change that we face on a global scale.
Theie was a iecent IBN suivey of 1,Suu CE0s aiounu the woilu, anu the numbei one issue
that they citeu as a concein was complexity. They saiu that they expecteu the uegiee of
complexity to only inciease going foiwaiu, anu less than half of them felt piepaieu to
hanule it. The seconu majoi issue that they citeu as a concein ieally hau to uo with
cieativity anu innovation, anu aie they able to access the necessaiy cieative capacity
within themselves anu within theii oiganizations to iesponu to a iapiuly changing maiket.
0ne of my favoiite sayings that I came acioss iecently that I think is veiy ieflective of oui
times is that "change will nevei again be this slow." I uon't know about you, but most of
the folks that I engage with aie stumbling in the face of iapiu change. It's as if we'ie on the
euge of a wateifall, anu we aie that watei, anu it's just flowing ovei us, anu thiough us,
anu as us, fastei anu fastei anu fastei. Always kinu of on the euge, falling ovei, but that the
change continues anu continues. So when I'm woiking with leaueis, funuamentally that's a
coie question foi me: how can we cieate the systems anu stiuctuies that can suppoit
them to make the ueep inteinal shifts that aie iequiieu that unlock a gieatei capacity to
iesponu to change. That unlock a gieatei ability to be cieative anu innovative in the face
of ambiguity anu unceitainty, anu that ultimately enable them to be as awaie of sensing
anu awaie of the enviionment in which they'ie engageu as possible. So, they ieally uo
potentially heighten the sensoiy oigans that you'ie iefeiiing to.
veiy piactically, much of the woik that we uo fiom the integial peispective looks at
ueveloping people in foui key uomains. I'm going to loosely categoiize these as: giowing
up, waking up, honing up, anu cleaning up. By giowing up, I mean what we call veitical
uevelopment, oi veitical leaining. That has to uo with suppoiting people's uevelopment of
theii mental complexity, so you coulu call it IQ; theii emotional intelligence, theii EQ; anu
theii contextual intelligence, theii ability to be awaie of the context in which they'ie
embeuueu, anu the context that's aiising insiue of them with theii emotions anu theii
thoughts. So theie's woik that we uo essentially on suppoiting incieaseu capacity anu
complexity in that space, helping people to make shifts in the veiy way that they see the
woilu, such that they can tune in to moie nuances aiounu them. That's the whole
uimension of giowing up, that veitical uevelopment.
Classic leauei uevelopment woik is in the aiea of what we call hoiizontal leaining. That's
what I'm calling "honing up," to shaipen up. Wheie we all neeu to continue to stuuy, anu
get the knowleuge anu the skills, anu be awaie of what's happening in oui inuustiy, anu
keep up to speeu with cuiient tienus, anu stuff like that. All that continues to be an
impoitant pait of leauei uevelopment.
The thiiu element has to uo with waking up, anu these aie teims that I've boiioweu fiom
Ken Wilbei anu Bustin Bipeina. Waking up ieally has to uo with oui executive piesence. If
veitical uevelopment anu giowing up is about oui executive minuset, anu hoiizontal
giowth oi honing up is about oui executive competence, then waking up is ieally about
oui executive piesence, anu what is the uegiee of physical, eneigetic vitality that we biing
to each moment. What's the uegiee of attention management that we'ie able to mastei
anu holu. What's the uegiee of intention management, which is connecting in with oui
ueepest values, anu aie we walking that path on a iegulai level. So, the whole iealm of
waking up essentially looks at this aiea of executive piesence, which has to uo with eneigy
management, attention management, anu intention management.
The final piece has to uo with cleaning up, which is, essentially, woiking with oui
psychological shauow issues, anu helping us to not be uistiacteu oi oveiwhelmeu oi
unueicut by them, anu ieally being able to woik thiough them in a healthy way that
libeiates eneigy anu insight, in seivice of the woik that neeus to be uone. So we'ie not
basically biinging oui own emotional baggage to the boaiuioom table when we'ie making
impoitant uecisions. 0i when we'ie in ciitical conveisations with people, we'ie not
piojecting oui stuff onto them, oi have issues ielateu to oui paients oi oui chiluhoou that
aie ieally blocking oui ability to sense anu to biing what's neeueu anu appiopiiate in the
moment.
So that's soit of an integial toui of the type of leauei uevelopment we uo with change
agents anu leaueis. Foi those of you who know the integial map, you'll see that I talk
about uiffeient uevelopmental lines theie, anu woiking with the shauow elements of oui
own psychology, anu woiking with both veitical stage uevelopment, anu then what we call
state stiuctuie uevelopment, which has moie to uo with the waking up element. Naiilyn,
I'm cuiious about how that ties in with the othei woik that you've been uoing aiounu
leauei uevelopment foi leaueis within the city anu with youi stuuents.
7"/#*C12 It ties in beautifully, Baiiett, anu as we've uiscoveieu, when we've woikeu
togethei in confeiences befoie, that kinu of ieseaich anu the fiaming that you biing
always seems to giounu some of the moie theoietical mouels I get fascinateu with, into
actually being able to uesign ways foi people to entei it. I love the foui uomains. uiowing
up anu honing up seem to me to ielate to the fiist two maps I talkeu about touay. So the
veitical map, we can see both in teims of the foui quauiants anu the multiple levels anu
lines that aie embeuueu in it that Ken Wilbei talks about. You iefeiieu to them in teims
that people can piobably ieally ielate to: IQ anu EQ anu contexting. Contexting
intelligence - we actually spent the thiee uays of oui fiist week of this confeience
exploiing the ecospheie anu the emeigent iesilience anu living systems, all of which aie
outei contexts that people neeu to be awaie of in thinking of the scale of the city. When
you'ie talking about the leaueiship of shaipening up oui hoiizontal connections, that's
also even piesaging one of oui intelligences next week that focuses on how uo we connect
all the uots in the city. That ielates to some of the maps that I use aiounu holaichy that
show the uiffeient sectois in the city that we all coexist with. So we'ie inuiviuuals, within
families, within teams, within oiganizations, within sectois, within communities, within
the city. So we actually have many uiffeient ways that we can hoiizontally connect in the
city. But youi last two points of waking up anu cleaning up, I think aie paiticulaily ielateu
to the uevelopmental aspects that aie built into many of the foui maps. Woulu you say
they go to the heait of spiiituality, of how we actually integiate anu become able to live
with integiity as leaueis.
@"//(,,2 Well, ceitainly they can, anu foi people foi whom that is impoitant, which is foi
me anu I know it is foi you. But the spiiitual element is not always as impoitant to people,
anu ceitainly to some people in the auuience. It's about effectiveness. The way that we'ie
uoing this woik is funuamentally fiameu aiounu gieatei effectiveness. As it tuins out, the
moie capable you aie of managing youi eneigy thioughout the couise of the uay, such that
you uon't have massive uiop-offs in bloou sugai, oi that you aien't essentially being
unueicut by a lack of sleep oi nutiitional ueficiencies, so we have a continual flow of
eneigy thioughout the uay, that ciitically impacts youi ability to be a leauei anu make
effective uecisions in the moment. We know that the biain opeiates uiffeiently in uiffeient
nutiitional situations anu uiffeient levels of sugai anu hoimones in youi system. Theie
aie paiticulai stiuctuies we can put in place with iespect to oui own nutiition anu oui
exeicise patteins that ieally help us optimize anu be moie effective in that way. Bowevei,
even in the veiy moment, theie's also incieuible woik that can be uone aiounu eneigy
management. That has to uo with ieally biinging foith this ueep piesence into the
conveisation, anu the uialogue that we'ie having with people. Boing things like leaning
foiwaiu slightly on the balls of youi toes if you'ie stanuing, oi leaning foiwaiu slightly in
youi chaii when you'ie sitting theie. That shifts youi physical piesence in the space with
someone anu liteially suppoits a ueepei anu moie poweiful impact. Now, of couise, theie
is a cultuial peispective to be taken on that, because in some cultuies, that's not as
appiopiiate. But fiom a Westein Euiopean anu Noith Ameiican peispective, that can help
to eithei have moie of a position of powei in the uialogue, in the space, those soits of
subtle moves of leaning in. But then uoing things like bieathing in a way that biings
eneigy up youi spine anu uown youi fiont, anu setting up soit of a ciiculai bieathing
ioute while you'ie in uialogue with someone, can ieally eneigize you anu vitalize you in a
way that just biings moie of youi piesence anu capacity to the moment. All of that is just
the eneigy management stuff.
uetting to the attention management - which is the teim I pickeu up fiom Stagen
consultancy woik - aiounu woiking with meuitation anu contemplation to help people be
moie effective by biinging ueep attention to the moment, anu not being uistiacteu by
eveiything else which pulling us in eveiy moment. Bow tiuly piesent can I be with you,
Naiilyn, in uialogue. Can I holu that, anu then pay attention to the whispeis of intuition oi
the whispeis of cieativity that come foith, as a iesult of not being uistiacteu by monkey
minu which bouncing aiounu, anu anything else.
The intention management one is a kinu of spiiituality in action, to a ceitain extent. If you
think about what aie my ueepest values, who am I heie to seive, what's the inteisection of
what I love to uo anu what I can be woilu-class at, anu that the maiket will pay me foi it.
That soit of claiification aiounu oui mission, oui values anu what we'ie funuamentally
tiying to uo as we incieasingly cleai that space, anu then iemembei that in the moment
anu compaie that with oui existing actions. That helps us to stay on tiack with iespect to
putting oui intention into oui actions. That intention management piece is a veiy piactical
way of ieally checking how aie we walking oui talk; aie we tiuly cieating the soit of
futuie that we mostly want, by this veiy moment, in oui engagement with people.
7"/#*C1: Thank you, Baiiett, that's a beautiful way of captuiing the attention anu
intention that aie in many ways the uppei two quauiants in oui integial mouel.
Now I'u like to tuin to Yene Assegiu in Beijing. Yene, you woikeu with some veiy
iemaikable leaueis in youi biith continent, Afiica. You staiteu to engage Afiican leaueis
anu uiscuss with them ways that they weie ueveloping theii capacities anu theii view of
the woilu. Woulu you like to stait off by telling us about youi ieseaich, anu how you, as a
uesignei of leaueiship capacity builuing, staiteu to be able to fiame it thiough youi
ieseaich.
A(1(: This is so wonueiful! I'm amazeu with this technology, that we can talk in ieal time,
that we can shaie with auuience in this way. I'll tell you a little bit about the ieseaich that I
uiu, anu what weie the ieasons why I chose this topic. I hau to leave my countiy when I
was tuining nine yeais olu, because of wai anu conflict anu ievolution. We hau to leave
the countiy in oiuei to suivive. I giew up that night; I became an auult oveinight in that
flight, which took me fiom my countiy to Euiope. What I wanteu to finu out is what woulu
it take foi us to cieate countiies, cities, wheie people can leave with all the basics - with
the secuiity, with the oppoitunities foi employment, foi health, foi euucation, foi social
life, foi community, without that being jeopaiuizeu. What woulu it take foi me to have
fieeuom to iemain in the countiy of my biith. That was my big question. I came to the
conclusion that I neeu to go back anu speak to as many leaueis as I can - those leaueis that
I appieciate, those leaueis that I look up to, those leaueis who've uone well foi theii
countiy - anu ask them about how we coulu uo this, how we coulu make it so that in Afiica
we coulu cieate nations wheie people can just iemain theie as they choose, anu that
tiavelling will just be an option, not a suivival thing. That's how it staiteu. I useu oiganic
inquiiy which is a veiy special inquiiy, because it paitneis with spiiit, anu then it is ieally
like going on a tiip with spiiit. I uiu not know all the leaueis when I staiteu, I just knew
that I wanteu to talk to them. Somehow it woikeu out, anu I spoke with all who weie on
the fiont lines when I staiteu that ieseaich. I spoke with Ni. Kofi Annan, I hau an
oppoitunity to spenu a half of a uay with Ni. Ahmeu Kathiaua, who spent 26 yeais on
Robben Islanu, he was in the cell next to Nelson Nanuela's cell. I also hau a chance to see
Nelson Nanuela. People like that; I finu it amazing. Community leaueis, spiiitual leaueis,
all soits. That who I spoke with.
7"/#*C1: We aie ieally fascinateu to heai about the people that you weie speaking to,
because they woulu be seeing the woilu thiough a veiy uisceining eye, as I woulu imagine.
So, what uiu you leain fiom them, anu how that fits into an integial map.
A(1(: What I founu is that all of them weie living, woiking, thinking anu being as integial
as I hau evei seen myself. It completely tiansfoimeu me. Talking to them, anu witnessing
theii stoiies, anu listening to theii wisuom, tiansfoimeu me in a way that they weie so
giounueu, to stait with. They weie not uoing anything foi any othei puipose than... almost
the noble puipose foi uoing it. Foi example, when we talk about South Afiica - I met with
Ni. Ahmeu Kathiaua, who was one of the iesiuents that was impiisoneu iight at the same
time with Nelson Nanuela. Be was 44 when he was sent to piison. Be was an activist since
the age of 8. Spenuing half a uay with someone who went to piison at the age of 44, anu
came out at the age of 6u, anu still continueu to woik when he was at the age of 8S. What
was it with him anu all his fellow colleagues that maue them uo what they uiu. It's
because they weie giounueu in themselves, they saw the ieality they weie facing, they uiu
not let themself be bounueu by time, they hau the couiage to uieam whatevei they neeueu
to uieam, in oiuei to cieate anothei ieality. Anu they weie not limiteu by the lack of
iesouices that they might have, oi the lack of facilities that they might have. They weie leu
by the intention to cieate something bettei foi the whole. Anu because this puipose was
ieally anchoieu in theii soul anu theii spiiit, it so happeneu that the puipose itself built
momentum, anu uiew who hau to be uiawn in to piopel it foiwaiu.
7"/#*C1: That's a veiy inteiesting obseivation to make, that these people who, we woulu
say, maybe weie in life conuitions wheie it woulu be veiy uifficult to expiess theii
leaueiship, actually weie able to look insiue anu be eneigizeu by theii puipose. Is that
what I'm heaiing you say.
A(1(: Exactly, eneigizeu by theii puipose, yes.
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 9, 2u12 1u
7"/#*C1: This sounus similai to what Baiiett was also obseiving as neeueu in attention
anu intention, in oiuei to uevelop leaueis. What was the most impoitant piactice that
leaueis that you inteivieweu founu, in theii own actions anu behaviois, kept them going.
A(1(: I askeu this question in my inteiviews. Almost all saiu the same thing: '$/A$%)3(5
$9$%1$) &%+9 .%()()? (2 #3$ &/.$ +& .%()(). As human beings, we become what we neeu to
become, in oiuei to oveicome that ciisis. 0f couise leaueiship can be leaineu anu
piacticeu. But it must be staiting fiom puipose. We can't have leaueiship just in the aii.
What is it about. What counts foi me. What's impoitant foi me. Anu to be leu by that, in
oiuei to builu that, anu uevelop all the piactices that we neeu to have, in oiuei to achieve
that puipose, in oiuei to achieve my uieam. It might be uiffeient foi eveiy othei peison.
As a founuation - anu what Baiiett saiu is also veiy impoitant - looking at the basic level,
what is it that we aie putting in oui bouy. Is my bouy in the best possible shape to think
cleaily though the uay. Am I spenuing enough time in meuitation, to maintain that claiity
of minu, anu to connect with my ueepei self. Boing that thioughout the uay, anu
thioughout the yeais of woik, I can stay coheient between who I am anu what is it I want
to uo, who is that I want to seive, anu how it is that I want to piesent myself to the woilu.
7"/#*C1: That's a veiy piofounu ieminuei foi us about what some of oui speakeis last
week weie talking about: Elizabeth Sahtouiis was giving hei peispective on living systems,
anu how it's actually chaos anu ciisis, in living systems, that causes a tiiggei to change into
a moie complex iesponse; to be able to auapt to it. I heai you saying that this is what youi
ieseaich showeu in the leaueis that you inteivieweu. I'u like to ask you a question that
woulu help oui auuience to unueistanu you a little bit moie, especially thinking about the
books that you've wiitten. Bave you been able to take these lessons, anu woulu you say
theie is something you can shaie with the auuience that's been youi own leaueiship
piactice foi youiself, that alloweu you to move beyonu wheie you staiteu, say befoie you
staiteu the jouiney of Integial Afiica. The piactice that has become ieally impoitant foi
you, in getting in touch with youi puipose.
A(1(: Thank you foi asking. A lot of what I founu in ieseaich - I'm actually in a piocess
now of wiiting anothei book calleu "The giounu of being - Bow tiuly theie is time tiavel."
It's going to biing all of this togethei. We stait by being giounueu in who we aie. Then the
question is: what woulu it take foi me to be giounueu. Foi me, it might be that I neeu to
be in piayei anu meuitation in the moining. Naybe someone else finus that thiough hiking
oi uiving. But the time to connect to that ueepei self is wheie I woulu stait. It's uiffeient
foi each peison. Foi myself it comes thiough meuitation. Anu maybe when I was youngei,
it came fiom being ieally awaie of my woilu in teims of what matteis to me, what cieates
my happiness anu my sauness, what contains my uieams, to be ieally awaie of that. It's
that awaieness that allows the emeigence foi all soits of initiatives, in oiuei to maintain
that coheience between what I feel in my heait anu what I'u like to see with my eyes.
7"/#*C1: That you Yene, that's a ieally beautiful way to shaie youi piactice anu uiscoveiy
with the auuience.
I woulu like to go back to Baiiett anu ask if you might shaie what you'ie heaiing fiom
Yene that might also have tuineu out in the leaueis of sustainability, that you inteivieweu
foi youi ieseaich. Aie you heaiing a ieflection anu paiallel with youi own uiscoveiies anu
inteipietations of youi uata.
@"//(,,: Yes, absolutely. It's lovely to heai the way Yene has aiticulateu hei finuings with
the people that she's hau the honoi to engage. I took a similai appioach with my ieseaich.
I tiackeu uown folks who hau veiy complex consciousness, who've been assesseu at the
veiy latest stages of uevelopment that science can measuie, fiom a uevelopmental
psychology peispective, anu who weie also significant sustainability leaueis within the
0niteu Nations, multinational coipoiations, within Nu0s oi consultancies. 0ne of the key
things that aiose, that aligns with what Yene was talking about, was that all of these folks
saw theii woik as a spiiitual piactice. Theie was no uiffeience between sitting on theii
mat in the moining anu meuitating, anu getting up anu uoing theii woik of community
uevelopment, oi helping the 0lympics to become moie sustainable, oi helping the
multinational coipoiation to cieate its fiist laige scale sustainability stiategy. Theie was
no funuamental uiffeience in the way they uiu that woik anu the way they uiu theii
spiiitual piactice. It ieally was an expiession of theii spiiitual piactice. The uesign woik
that they uiu was funuamentally giounueu in this tianspeisonal meaning. What I mean by
that is that they woulu eithei uo it in seivice of the gieatei othei if they hau moie of a
ielationship with uou oi with 0niveise, a soit of a seconu peison ielationship; oi they
weie uoing it as that consciousness itself, if they hau moie of a fiist peison expeiience in
theii spiiitual piactice, they weie expeiiencing themselves as consciousness co-cieating
anu unfoluing at each moment, all the woik they weie uoing aiising out of that space. That
alloweu them to access some pietty poweiful capacities. 0ne of which, foi example: they
ieally have ueep access to intuition. They woulu use uiffeient phiases aiounu that:
intuition oi whispei of insights fiom mysteiy oi tapping into collective intelligence. But
funuamentally they weie tuneu into something that was beyonu theii iational minu. They
still useu theii minu in a ieally poweiful way to help unueistanu anu uesign inteivention.
They complementeu that with ueep intuitive inquiiy anu intuitive insight.
7"/#*C1: Thank you, Baiiett. I iemembei fiom youi ieseaich the fiist time I saw it:
)")#/(2/B('(#: '$/A$%) 5%+1%$))(,$': B$./9$ 9+%$ .+95'$C. They staiteu 6+%D(21 +2 the
system as a fiist stage of auvanceu leaueiship piactice, then they moveu into 6+%D(21 6(#3
the system as a seivice foi the uieatei 0thei, then they ueepen theii level of engagement
anu complexity with the system anu became /) the system. Anu this to me sounueu like a
wonueiful ioot to being ieflective about one's leaueiship piactice anu gave us a fiame foi
being uaia's ieflective oigan.
Thank you Yene anu Baiiett!
We have an auuience listening. I'u like to ask Eiic to open this up to some of the questions
anu inteiactions to the auuience.
E/#+: What I'm heaiing as a theme is this quality of ueep piesence, anu just to keep
evoking it now as we look into - what wants to emeige in this space. Kinu of intuitively
sensing into the possibility of this moment, as we gathei heie, anu as we lean into the
space between us.
7"/#*C12 Yene, I was asking Baiiett if he woulu comment on what you hau to say anu I'u
like to invite you to comment on what you heaiu Baiiett say, as he might have alloweu
you to think moie ueeply, oi slightly uiffeiently, about using the uiffeient levels of insight
that aie gaineu thiough ieflective piactice, anu also how it ielates to the biophysical
wellness of oui whole actual bouies.
A(1(: Thank you. I just love listening to Baiiett. What stiuck me is what Baiiett saiu
about taking caie of oui bouy anu taking caie of oui minufulness thiough meuitation.
0ftentimes I think the kinu of leaueis that I spoke to uiun't ieally always take caie of theii
bouies. I guess some of the inuiviuuals who coulu have seiveu a lot moie, a lot longei, have
left this woilu veiy soon, too eaily. Anu it has to uo with the fact that maybe they uiu not
take caie of theii bouy, theii physical self, as they shoulu have. This means something as
simple as getting enough sleep, something as simple as making suie that the bloou sugai
level uoesn't uiop. It seems so simple, but it's not. Because it takes a conscious minu to
actually make suie that that actually is taken caie of. It ieally stiuck a choiu with me.
7"/#*C1: It uoes with me, too, Yene. 0ne of the mastei coues of the integial city is: #/D$
./%$ +& :+"%)$'&? #/D$ ./%$ +& $/.3 +#3$% /2A #/D$ ./%$ +& #3$ 5'/.$. Taking caie means that
you have to look at all of youi quauiants of ieality.
F;::(1, )/;: F6"1,(: Biiectly feeuing on what Yene saiu, I think that theie's
histoiically been lots anu lots of exceptional people; leaueis who may have ignoieu what
we woulu call an integial appioach, but maue a tiansfoimational impact on the woilu. Ny
question is, of those foui types: giowing up, honing up, waking up, anu cleaning up,
obviously they all have an impact. But what uo you think, Baiiett oi Yene, is the most
ciitical one, that allows people to ieally excel as a leauei, anu be tiansfoimational in theii
inteiactions with otheis.
@"//(,,2 Yene woulu you like to iesponu to that fiist.
A(1(: I woulu say the most impoitant thing is giounueuness anu claiity. That we'ie
piesencing ouiselves in a veiy stable way, while we'ie still flexible, but we'ie not going
with the winu, whichevei uiiection the winu goes. That we'ie having this giounueuness
that is emeiging fiom the puipose, that is fiom within, that is asking to be seiveu. That, foi
me, woulu be the most impoitant staiting point, at least.
@"//(,,2 Foi me, Chante, builuing upon what Yene says, I ceitainly agiee that the ueepei
the founuation, the highei the builuing we can cieate, whatevei that builuing might be.
Whethei it's an oiganization oi impact in a society. I think theie's a fifth element which is
ieally ciitical heie. In auuition to the veitical woik of giowing, anu the hoiizontal woik of
honing up, anu the state uevelopment woik of waking up, anu then the moie psychological
shauow stuff of cleaning up, theie's also )3+6(21 "5. That has to uo with couiageous
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 9, 2u12 1S
action; anu ieally, taking action in the moment, uespite not knowing what to uo, uespite
not being piepaieu, uespite not having all the answeis, uespite not having all the
iesouices, but showing up anu moving the ball foiwaiu a little bit oi a lot, uepenuing on
what we can actually pull off. This is, I think, one of the most ciucial things that we can uo.
In my woik with oiganizations anu leaueis aiounu the woilu, it is just so cleai that theie
is so much goou woik that can be uone that uoesn't iequiie people to be supei conscious,
supei awake, supei talenteu, oi supei skilleu. Theie's just lots of best piactices anu goou
piactices that neeu to be put in place, in oiuei foi us to cieate the woilu that we want. In
oiuei to unlock the potential foi an unpieceuenteu flouiishing of humanity anu natuie. I
know that I peisonally stiuggle with wanting to be iight, wanting to be the best, to be high
impact, wanting to be the best possible that I coulu possibly uo. A lot of that is ego-uiiven,
anu my own self-iuentity attacheu to the outcome, anu wanting to make suie that I look
goou as a iesult of woik that happens. That soit of stuff which just gets in the way. }ust
uoing the woik is ieally, ieally, ieally ciitical. By uoing the woik, I liteially mean just
showing up anu just uoing it.
Now, that all being saiu, theie is some ieseaich aiounu leaueiship effectiveness which
suggests that the veitical uevelopment capacity, the giowing up, is significantly coiielateu
with incieaseu leaueiship effectiveness. up until a ceitain point. Aftei a ceitain point, we
uon't have any moie ieseaich that suggests that, anu that's simply because theie hasn't
been enough stuuy into that late stage of consciousness. But in geneial, a mouein society
that's helping people to make veitical shifts can unlock ciucial intellectual, emotional, anu
ielationship capacities that enable them to be moie effective. Anu that's not the only thing.
Fiankly, you can be ieally conscious anu ieally awaie, but if you uon't know youi inuustiy,
if you uon't know the uynamics of youi maiket, if you uon't know the politics, if you aien't
tuneu in fiom a hoiizontal leaining stanupoint, then it uoesn't mattei how conscious you
aie. So that's why that hoiizontal piece is significant as well.
The final piece is that in the psychological liteiatuie oi in the leaueiship liteiatuie that's
linkeu to psychological uevelopment, peisonality typology anu ceitain elements of
peisonality typology have also been heavily coiielateu with leaueiship effectiveness.
Theie's just ceitain qualities like extioveision anu thinking that ieally suppoit anu
inciease leaueiship effectiveness. It's not cleai whethei oi not that veitical uevelopment
actually has that stiong an impact towaius the uiffeient typologies showing up theie anu
actually uoing that woik. That is the thing that's up in the aii fiom an acauemic stanupoint.
If you weie going to choose an aiea to focus on I woulu peisonally uo a blenu of, fiist of all,
just show up anu just uo the woik, even if you'ie not piepaieu. Then if you'ie going to uo
youi own giowth woik, then put youiself in conuitions that you can suppoit youi own
veitical uevelopment anu ieally shift youi mental stiuctuies so that you can make moie
wisei anu moie timely uecisions, baseu upon a moie complex way of making sense of the
woilu aiounu you.
7"/#*C12 Baiiett, I think what you've just auueu as the fifth element is ieally evocative of a
phiase that has ieally been something that I iefei to often in my own leaueiship jouiney,
anu I heai myself often shaiing it with my stuuents. You piobably know it well youiself, as
I believe it comes fiom Angeles Aiiien. It's ieally just foui simple things anyone can uo.
0ne is )3+6 "5, which is exactly what you'ie pointing at. When you show up, the piesence
- which is what Eiic actually inviteu us to be on the fiist pait of this call - we show up anu
we aie piesent, then all we'ie calleu to uo is speak oui tiuth. It's speaking oui tiuth that
we biing, that which we aie able to see in the woilu thiough oui unique eyes. Then the
last is piobably the most uifficult thing to uo - let go of iesults. Letting go of iesults speaks
veiy much to, if you fiameu it in teims of ieseaich anu theoiy, a veiy auvanceu way of
ielating. Anu at the same time, it's enabling foi eveiyone, because if we can show up, be
piesent, speak oui tiuth anu let go of iesults, then that which wants to come thiough us
can come thiough, anu even new patteins can emeige.
Thank you so much foi biinging us to a beautiful spot, wheie I woulu now like to ask if
Eiic has a question we might engage oui auuience in; as we finu that moving into the peei
to peei connections in oui auuience is ieally valuable foi the confeience.
|Aftei bieak-outs.j
7"/#*C12 Baiiett, what weie you heaiing in the conveisations.
@"//(,,2 A wonueiful polaiity was iaiseu aiounu, on one hanu, taking uynamic action, anu
on the othei pole, ieally consciously choosing not to take action, anu ieflect on the
uynamics anu uiiveis of the system, but also just to listen into the silences. As I saiu with
them, to pay attention to the spaces anu the mysteiy in between oui actions. To just
emphasize to all of us how impoitant it was to be woiking that polaiity, essentially. Not
too stuck in action, not too stuck in ieflection, but ieally being able to move acioss those in
a healthy way. In seivice of appiopiiate action, moie ueeply infoimeu action, anu also in
seivice of just letting othei people step up anu move in to the quiet space.
7"/#*C1: That's something that's a veiy uifficult thing foi a leauei to leain. I'm saying that
as a peison who has hau that challenge in my own life. Tiying to ueciue whethei I shoulu
holu on oi let go, actually step in to take action, oi whethei I shoulu let the system finu its
own way thiough. Especially not-foi-piofit gioups, especially wheie theie's volunteeis,
I've founu that if you can holu back long enough, it's suipiising how many leaueis you can
uiscovei will step up. All of a suuuen some space has been cieateu so that it's possible to
move foiwaiu. Thanks foi shaiing that obseivation Baiiett.
0ne of the othei gioups I visiteu was expiessing some inteiest in eco-villages anu I was
actually amazeu at how many uiffeient countiies they coveieu in just the one gioup. }ust
being able to use even this way of engaging leaueiship that ciosses cultuies. I thought that
it woulu be a ieally nice completion to oui uiscussion heie to invite Yene to come back.
She was shaiing with me something that she hau been thinking about since we bioke into
the bieak-out gioups. Yene, what's been coming up foi you in thinking about oui
conveisation touay.
A(1(2 Thanks, Naiilyn. 0ne of the things that came up foi me, in auuition to what I saiu
eailiei, is how Baiiett was uiscussing about showing up, anu how oui ability to show up
as we aie takes couiage, sometimes, to uo that. When we actually, in fact, show up, it's that
we'ie taking a leap of faith. We'ie having faith that the puipose that is emeiging within
ouiselves has its own life, anu that we'ie only channels foi this puipose to manifest into
this woilu. The minute we unueistanu anu make the uistinction that it's not about us, that
we'ie just seiving as a channel, it's veiy easy to let go anu not be attacheu to the iesult,
anu have the commitment to just seive the puipose. Couiage becomes a lot easiei at that
time because we'ie just being leu by faith of the puipose that we'ie caiiying. That's what
came up foi me.
7"/#*C12 I'm ieally appieciating all the backbone of oui uialogue; I think puipose has iun
thiough both what you anu Baiiett shaieu. 0ne of the things I think about in cities is that
puipose is a kinu of fiactal. The city itself has a puipose. Bow aie we evei to uiscovei that,
if the leaueis in the city uon't uiscovei theii own puipose. I ieally appieciate, Yene anu
Baiiett, that you weie able to biing some ieally wonueiful uesign tools foi us to notice
how to cieate habitat foi leaueis to natuially aiise. Both of you spoke ueeply to
uiscoveiing this kinu of puipose that flows thiough us as leaueis, anu how we can actually
inteiact with all of the gioups anu oiganizations anu theii puiposes. I'm calling foith the
puipose of oui cities to uiscovei what that is. It is by showing up, I think, in places like this,
wheie we can have geneiative conveisations, that's going to be possible. So thank you
Baiiett, thank you Yene.

Integral City eLab October 13, 2012
1
What is an Integral Map and where are we implementing Integral
Maps for individual leadership?
Speakers: Jan Inglis and Dr. Graham Boyd
September 11, 2012

Jan Inglis has for many years been motivated to research, design, teach,
and facilitate developmentally designed public deliberation processes to
increase systemic responses to complex public issues, especially those
relating to climate change. She has presented and published widely on this
topic as well as producing a video. Recently her focus has scaled up to
include the development of new structures of commons-based economics
and governance through which citizens can engage in local and global
resource management anchored to sustainability indices. This is the focus of her PhD
research. She also has a background as a somatic psychotherapist and artist. She is a
board member of the Canadian Community for Dialogue and Deliberation, a member of
the National Coalition for Dialogue and Deliberation, the director of the Integrative
Learning Institute, and a member of the Commons Paradigm Think Tank.

Dr. Graham Boyd is Managing Partner with TetraLD, located in London UK. His focus is
enabling people to improve their performance by changing the environment
around the individual. He is particularly interested in distributed leadership
and Integral learning transfer to the next generation of leaders. Graham is a
'deep generalist,' having worked successfully across science, business,
strategy, facilitating dialogue, coaching and training. Graham started his
professional life in high energy physics and computing. He moved to Procter
& Gamble, where he led the development of new products and new
organizations, including the Beijing Technical Centre. The common thread in his work is
complex systems thinking: seeing the whole, the interactions, and the parts, and changing
the system for the better. He bridges cultures and generations from experience, having
lived in South Africa, Germany, Italy, Japan, Belgium, the UK and China. Graham is the
co-founder, with Robin Wood, of the Renaissance2 think-and-do tank.
Integral City eLab October 13, 2012 2
David Faber: How do Integral Maps give us insight into the vibrant sea of wholeness and
help us to detect when that wholeness is out of sync?

Graham Boyd: Thank you David! Ill start by just linking in the theme of Gaias reflective
organ. One of the things about organs in the human body or in fact anybody - is that they
are whole organs complete in and of themselves, they are holons. And one of the ways
that they communicate with other organs is through feelings. Now, a lot of the people that
I am working with at the moment are Generation Y. And one of the things with Generation
Y that I found enormously striking: first of all, they want high performance. They wont
tolerate anything less than high performance, in particular because they are well aware of
the challenges. For example, in Jans talk last week, we spoke about the five challenges of
water, food, energy, finance, and climate change. They are well aware of that and they are
not prepared to tolerate anything less than high performance.
One of the ways that I am seeing high performance coming in is through the use of feelings
in groups. Now - and this is a core part of how I am using the Integral Map - quite often
when we are talking about Integral Theory, we tend to talk about the different quadrants
in isolation and what has struck me is in the middle, for me, along the vertical axis
connecting the inner with the outer - thats where feelings lie. Feelings have part of the
Earths anchor deep inside the values of a culture of the individual and the collective but,
feelings are visible, you know what they are and, in particular, if you are trying to use Gaia
as a reflective organ, the very powerful thing about feelings is (a) the way that they
connect inner and outer. And what theyre doing with connecting the inner and outer Let
us say something is happening in my world. And what is happening is connecting with
some part of my value set that is in the category of love. Im going to feel good about that
and that feeling good is telling me I might not know which value it is connecting with, but
whatever is happening is connecting with something that is good for me and I want more
of it.
On the other hand, if I start to feel negative, that is invariably connecting with something
that is in the bucket of values connected with fear. And that feeling is saying to me I want
less of this, this is a threat to me. Now, that is a real, really powerful way of starting to use
the Integral Map and it is simply tuning into what feelings you are having in the context
that you are in.
Now, Ill digress slightly. Ken Wilber earlier today spoke about the eight levels in the
different quadrants and, in particular, he spent some time talking about the tension
between three of the levels - the fundamental religious level, the modern scientific level,
the pluralistic postmodern level - and that each looks at the other as being wrong and is
unable to connect with where the other is. Now, one thing about feelings that is really
powerful: everybody has the same feelings. You can always connect with somebody at the
level of feelings at least acknowledging the validity of their feelings. Where does this come
into how we use the Integral Map in a leadership context, in a group context? One of the
things that Ive learned from Gen Y, learned in a visceral sense, an experiential sense, is the
extent to which they are already naturally and intuitively using feelings as a way of gluing
the Integral Map together - all of the channels of communication complimenting verbal
communication.
I can give you an example of that. A group that I was working with a few months ago, the
leadership team running a conference, the entire leadership team came together
physically for the first time one day before the conference started. Halfway into the three-
day conference everything that could possibly have gone wrong did go wrong. And
needless to say, the leader of the leadership team and the bulk of the leadership team
went through a serious crisis, one where they were questioning, and rightly questioning,
the entire conference design, realizing that they had to change the conference design. Now,
this was an intensely emotional thing! This was for all of them at some level a threat to
their self confidence. So there was a serious emotional breakdown. Now the difference
between that and many other teams that I have been involved with where there has been
a high level of emotional breakdown, in this team there was absolutely no judgment, there
was no attempt to fix the emotions per se. The emotions were taken as nothing more than
information that each individual in his or her role as one of Gaias reflective organs is
sensing about the imbalance between what is and the underlying values and motivators of
the people and, at a corrective level, what is and the purpose of the whole group being
there.
Because they were using the feelings as part of a communication, it made it very, very easy
for them to simply accept what was, work with what was in the space, what was available
as an artist would, work with what was there. It took no longer than two hours from the
point of breakdown through to the point where the entire team was back to full energy
and the rest of the conference - the second half had been completely redesigned. At the
end point of the conference, a number of participants were coming back and saying: this
conference was exactly what I needed now, it was different to what I had expected it
would be like coming in, but it was exactly what I needed. And so for me thats one of the
core ways of using the Integral Map, putting feelings into their place as the instant
messaging service between the hidden dimensions and the visible dimensions, the instant
messaging service between different levels in the lines of development.

David Faber: So, one of the questions, Graham, building on what youve just said, maybe
you would help to distinguish a little bit further between emotions and feelings? I wonder
if you can expand on that.

Graham Boyd: I tend not to make much of a distinction. For me, for all practical purposes,
they are doing more or less the same thing, in the sense that you are connecting at some
level the visible with the invisible in a way that enables you to express it. Now, ideally, I
like people to be able to talk about, and I like to find ways of talking myself about, how do I
feel at a physical level in my body and what are the emotions that are connected with that.
But for me those are two different facets of the same underlying question which is they
are giving me an intuitive message about how my value set is engaging with what is
actually happening around me and in that sense they are allowing me to be part of
creating the hive mind, be part of creating collective intelligence. And perhaps the most
important thing to bring in at this point: we talk a lot about the hive mind, collective
intelligence, which is very head-centric, but the human body, the way we all function, is a
very complex dynamically interwoven tapestry of the cognitive, the head, the heart, the
feelings, the emotions, as well as the spirit, the big picture: Why? Why are we doing this?
And the real hive at a human level, the next generation of humanity, and I think that we
are already seeing in some of the teams that are forming that are able to use head, heart
and spirit in synergy to create not just a hive mind but an entire hive being.

David Faber: So, again, as youve described that, one of the things that strikes me is that
youve referenced Generation Y. And Generation Y, correct me if I am wrong, are people
who are born in the 1980s and 1990s. Is that fair to say?

Graham Boyd: Yes, Generation Y is pretty much the 80s through to the late 90s, early
thousands, depending on which definition you look at.

David Faber: So, that generation has very much grown up with technology, at least have
been exposed to it right from birth. And I am wondering how that plays into this as well
because you notice a lot of people, of course, texting and communicating in that way as
well so how does that connect with what you are saying with the emotions and spirit or
your, you know, your feelings?

Graham Boyd: It connects in two ways. One of the things that Buzz
i
talked about last
week in his very early talk, is the rampant explosion in capital, in wealth, just before an
ecosystem collapses. He referred to a forest and the rampant growth of biomass capital in
a forest just before a forest fire cuts it back down to size.
Almost all of us on this call are knowledge workers. In 1986, the average knowledge
worker in a study in the States had in his or her head 75 per cent of the knowledge they
needed to do their job. This number is dropping. By 2006, it was down to eight per cent.
By now it is down to about five per cent and Ive coined the term the one per cent
knowledge worker. Ten years from now, the average knowledge worker - and that means
any manager, any city leader, any government official, scientist, technologist, whatever -
the average knowledge worker will have one per cent or less than they need to do their
job actually in their head. That means that its impossible to do your job properly by trying
harder, by trying to learn new knowledge. The only way you can do it is by learning the
dialogue skills - I am sure Jan will talk about this a bit as well - by learning the dialogue
skills and communications skills that enable you to connect the one per cent that you have
in your head with the one per cent that other people have in their head and if you are able
to get to the point where 99 can connect with you then you can get to the 100 per cent.
Now that ties into the Internet.
One of the things the Generation Y does, many of them no longer even bother to go to
Google for information or to Wikipedia. They go straight into something like Twitter or
Facebook and connect directly with real live human beings, connect with their friends and
even maybe with friends who are living anywhere on the planet. Now, as a slight
digression, one thing Ive noticed with Gen Y is that many, many more of them do not
recognize borders. I asked them what do they think of the concept of the nation state and
many of them will say, We dont quite understand what it is good for. It seems to be
holding us back and preventing us from solving some of the pressing problems on the
planet. We think that there are some areas where it can be improved. So, thats one
digression. But the essential part of it is a very-very willing - a willingness and an ability to
connect across all kinds of borders, be it between generations, between people, between
nations, and to do it synchronously, asynchronously, just look at the whole and figure out
where can I find 99 other people, each of them with one per cent of what I need to know.

David Faber: So this may be a two -tier comment, Graham. Jan, your work in terms of
dialogue and deliberation, how would you see that connecting in with what Graham has
said?

Jan Inglis: Well, certainly the need for us to talk, think, make decisions about actions so
that we can take on some of the complex issues that are impacting our cities and
impacting Gaia is absolutely necessary. And thank goodness we are addressing that and
looking at the fact that we need skills to do that because weve been so steeped in a culture
that has assumed that we could operate individually, that we could create our worlds and
create our safety from an individualistic situation. And weve set up our governments, our
economics, and our science from that modernist assumption and it is rippling through our
institutions. The quadrant that is about economics and governments is steeped still in
structures that are based so much on those assumptions. So, to be able to find that we
need to work collectively, we do need to understand how each other thinks and find ways
of gathering that meaning in a way that we have not been used to in this culture, certainly
the Western culture, for quite a while. We certainly have cultures that have operated that
way. But we are now facing a whole different level of complexity than any cultures have
ever had before. We also have a much broader range of cultures within the larger
planetary culture that we are working with. So we have a huge number of conversations
that we need to have across all that complexity and across the diversity of our cultures.
Using the Integral mapping process, Im going to weave myself around that part, because I
think that the capacity to analyze together, for me, what I feel helps to move us from being
really abstract and theoretical, is to be talking about what we are working with in terms of
the issues that face us, what is it that is in between what we are wanting to do and what
we are actually able to do, what is the next step of complexity there, whether its dealing
with homelessness in a city or dealing with some development issue or whether we are
dealing with climate change on the planetary level, there are challenges for us to be able to
get at it so we have complexity to deal with that. And so having a way of mapping so that
we can raise into our awareness all the different aspects that make up that complexity, to
be able to have discussions about it so that we are not coming at it from absolutist,
solution-based this is the only way to do it and this is the way I am proposing and we
need to all jump at it at a town-hall meeting and say, Yes, this is the only way we are all
going to go - but to be able to have processes so that we can actually have the kind of
conversations where we see the multiple aspects of the complexity that we can look at all
the parts that have made up this issue historically, that are also making up the present
problematic conversations, and the fact that part of the complexity is us and the fact that
we are diverse and we need to have ways that we bring the problematic aspects of that
diversity but also the richness of that diversity into whatever we are working on. Ill
pause there because I said quite a bit. So I may just let us go and see where you want to go
next.

David Faber: It certainly has connected with me personally with what you were saying
and in fact actually I was doing an interview with CBC Radio this morning and the point I
was making or was attempting to make was that we need to collaborate together, that we
do need to embrace the diversity that is there. However, what ends up happening
sometimes is that there is fear and, connecting this back to your work, Graham, what you
were just talking about emotion, and there is the fear that surfaces around being able to
put the question out there and be comfortable enough with the answers and the dialogue
that comes back and it becomes almost a sense of Im losing control so Im not
comfortable with this, especially when it comes to government type decision-making.
I just find it fascinating how the collaboration piece is so important and looking at the
understanding that it is complex but being willing to step into that complexity and to map
it out or to understand that and to make it simpler for people and simpler for ourselves to
understand as we are working through it. I find that, as you were making the comment
again about diversity, of how that can some of the greatest moments can be when you
bring artists, and musicians and engineers and all sorts of different folks together to
experience putting a question out there that is very juicy, that is a question that people can
really want to get their heads wrapped around, to move it forward so, it does connect
back to me and back to what I think of Gaia and the human body, of all of the different
parts of the all of the different organs working together. So kind of grouping us back to
the question of, and maybe if you can start out, Jan, of how do you tell when we are out of
sync so that Graham was talking about emotions and feelings there, how do you sense
when things are going out of sync with us?

Jan Inglis: Well, I think, it depends on kind of what grouping is and if it is me, I do
certain things; if its a group, I think there are certain ways of doing it, but I think to say
that Integral is actually what we are using there all the things that are essential to
wholeness and so I think that there is a place, a feeling, a nigglyness that something is
missing so that sense of theres that feeling that something is not quite right, theres some
way I am not getting a wholeness here, Im not getting an aha, Im not getting a feeling of
comfort, so being able to use inquiry to go into Whats that about? or it could be a
stronger emotion of frustration or anger or having that place of inquiry, what is that
telling me about something, where did that come from, what is that relating to, but being
able to look at that in terms of how we do that as groups, being able to - and I am looking
at some of Bill Torberts work - the action inquiry, What is it that we are intending to do
here, and Why are we actually acting. And if there is a gap between our intention and
our abilities and our actions and therefore which I think touches in that place about
vulnerability of, well were not used to being vulnerable especially in public situations so
we need to acquire that capacity to do shared inquiry that says What is it that is not
working well here? And I think we can look at that from like the workshop conference
setting that you were referring to where everything was going wrong or we can be looking
at that in terms of My gosh, how could we be still doing business as usual on the planet
when we know that we are over the top in terms of CO2 production and we have taken
ourselves into a situation where we are not going to be able to survive as a species, or
other species, in the way that we have understood survival to be.
That is a very big niggle so we have to enquire into that, we have to give space to that, we
have to have processes that support that. It can be personal that we are having that
inquiry into What does my life have to do with this alignment or misalignment?,
but, What is our group, our collectiveness about? So, there is a way that we have that
inquiry and I think that inquiry comes when we start thinking systemically; when we start
having a way to look at the different pieces that need to be in place to give a sense that we
have a road forward.
And if, as we are seeing in our various countries, ways of setting up governance when we
are so connected into the fight into my way is better than yours and we put money into
that, our media is looking at that we are not having processes where we have this other
inquiry about what is it that we do value and weve come up with solutions that say what
we really value is economic growth and jobs no matter how they come, you know it could
be that we continue to exploit resources, we continue to go after tar sands, the various
things that we do might be adding more to the CO2 but we do not have ways that we have
enough gatherings that have these discussions where we are vulnerable together about
the fact that we may not know yet. But the only way we are going to figure it out is to talk
and think together and come up with different ways of putting value back into our lives in
a way that, I think, weve lost track of.
David Faber: Thank you, Jan. Actually, thats a great connection to our next question and
in fact you started to answer it there- How do we develop capacities for integration and
integrity? And perhaps, Graham, you can jump in on that one. The question is How do we
develop capacities for integration and integrity?
Graham Boyd: I would love to jump into that one! And I will preface it by saying that I
have the sense that a lot of what we are talking about here, we are talking about things
that can only be understood once they have been experienced and felt. It would be a little
bit like me trying to describe the sensation of eating an exquisite Belgian chocolate while
watching a red sunset to somebody who had never come into contact with anything like
either. Words would simply be inadequate.
So Ill start with a very short story. I was chatting live to Otto Vaske and describing a
situation Id been in and how I was making sense of it and he said to me, Graham, that is
an exquisitely precise and beautiful intellectual construction you have there. But how
about a little bit of compassion for yourself? And I just thought, This is brilliant! It
comes back to we can create all of these exquisite structures but unless we are connecting
them with something which is much-much deeper in ourselves, something connected to
the vulnerability we are talking about, the capacity to be vulnerable... A couple of my
favorite themes at the moment is the whole question leadership, distributed leadership.
One of the things that I am seeing when I contrast a lot of again the Gen Y folks that I
work with and maybe these are specific Gen Y, they may not be representative to all of
them, but it is that group of Gen Ys that is really stepping up to the challenge and doing
something.
In much of traditional business, work is work, leadership is leadership and anything like
love has got nothing to do with it. Whereas these folk, they are not seeing a contradiction
between love-centered feelings and leadership. They see the two as absolutely essential
partners, recognizing that feelings and values in the love category - they give energy - by
connecting across different people these feelings, you increase everybodys ability to give
more, there is no upper limit. Whereas, if youre only connecting across ego-centric, fear-
centric, aggressive-level emotions, the best you can do is take them away. You are not
really going to increase beyond that. So one of the things about developing the capacity for
integration and integrity lies in especially leaders figuring out how do you bring the love
back into leadership, using that as a way of increasing capacity as a collective body,
increasing the capacity of the entire hive. Remember what I said a little while ago about
the one per cent knowledge worker? With the challenges coming our way, the amount of
knowledge that we need to process to have anything like a chance of dealing with them is
way beyond the capacity of even the most brilliant leader or expert. We can only do that if
we truly reach hive being, truly reach collective intelligent action and again the capability
to be vulnerable is absolutely essential to let other people close enough into you that
everybody knows everybody elses gaps - the 99 per cent that is almost all of you that you
dont know enough about because until youve connected with those 99 you are not going
to be able to effectively identify the one per cent that you do bring in that is absolutely
essential to everybody and that you are really, really good at. And then let everybody
connect those ones to get to a 100.
And only once you are able to do that can you transcend and include the whole paradigm
between individual and collective. This polarization of individual or collective that so
many of, say, the baby boomers - either theyre part of a collective or theyre highly
individualistic - we have to transcend that paradigm if we are going to be able to make
progress going forward and a core part of transcending that paradigm is going to come
back to connecting, developing the capability to be vulnerable, which will give us a segue
into one of the other tools that we need which I can talk more about in a minute - the
whole question of distributed leadership, fractal leadership at all levels. But Ill pause at
that point to give you a chance to steer me in another direction or bring Jan in it.
David Faber: Well, the question that surfaces for me when you describe this - and you just
touched on a number of them but what are those new capacities? You've mentioned
inquiry and noticing niggles and the ability to connect and I think I just heard you say
being vulnerable. Are there other capacities that you've seen that are required for this
new generation or for everyone frankly to be able to be more integrated with each other?
Graham Boyd: I'd say that there are a couple of capacities that are actually essential. One
of them is dialogue and I am not talking about traditional ways of talking to other people -
either your cocktail party gossip type of conversation or your typical courtroom debate
type of conversation. Neither of those are capable of delivering collective intelligence.
One of the capabilities needed is to learn ways of dialogue that do lead to collective
intelligence and I know Brian Robertson will be talking at some point on Holacracy which
I find a very, very powerful combination of structures, organizational design, along with
complementary rules for dialogue and the combination of the two together create a very,
very powerful framework. As Ken Wilber was saying earlier today, a framework that
enables all relevant stakeholders centered in all four quadrants to actually be recognized,
given the space to speak, and more importantly that what they say can actually be heard.
So, Id say other capabilities, dialogue, very definitely; the right kind of structure and
frameworks to support this kind of higher level connection; the ability to be vulnerable;
the ability to really connect at a feelings level is essential; and the final capability that I
could talk for hours about is leadership capability. We tend to think of leadership at the
moment as something that is only done by the people at the top and is done to everybody
else. To deal with the challenges coming our way, we have to (a) switch our paradigm of
leadership on its head completely. Leadership is what the followers do to the leader by
virtue of their choice to follow. This is something that Gen Y is really strong at.
The groups I am working with - whoever has the right one per cent to take up leadership
in that instant leads the entire group regardless of the relative power relationships one
minute before. A very-very organic, dynamic fluid flow in who is leading and who is
following; a dance of partners where who is doing what depends on the music of the
context, not some person at the top of a pyramid of power who put people into that
position in an historic context and Id say that is an absolutely critical capacity - the ability
of each individual to lead themselves, the ability of each individual to take up a leadership
role for the whole team and the ability to take up leadership and let go of leadership in a
way where the role that you are currently filling, the accountabilities you are holding as a
leader, are disconnected with yourself identity which enables you to make that fluid flow
between the two.
David Faber: Something that, as you describe that, what surfaces for myself is that
leadership has been viewed as a noun, it is viewed as This person is a leader, quote
unquote, whereas, how you describe that, I am interpreting it that leadership is a verb, it is
an action that anyone can do at any level in an organization. Is that fair to say?
Graham Boyd: I think that that is very fair to say, I am just writing that down, in fact,
because I've not quite thought of it that way that is powerful. But yes leadership is very
much a verb. Leadership is nothing to do with an I am type statement and very much
something to do with this is what I am doing, this is how I am serving the purpose of why
we are all here. And, in that context, once youve separated the two, you are in a much,
much more powerful position to have very strong opinions, a very clear ego-holding
statement of where we need to be going, but to hold them very, very loosely so that
immediately another one per cent of knowledge comes in from another one per cent
knowledge worker who suggests maybe we should go slightly to the left or slightly to the
right, you are no longer hold onto it tightly, you no longer hold onto a specific thing tightly,
you can let go of that and flow with what the context requires to best be in service of the
purpose of the organization.
David Faber: So connecting that back to Gaia and the four pieces youve been referring to,
Im just taking a look here. Alf from Mississauga has posted a comment and he used the
example - he said this immersion would be like walking into a circle of elders to dialogue
around the fireplace without harsh judgment, being open to the wisdom of the crowd to
emerge through the dialogue. Individual tension needs to surrender to collective purpose.
What are your thoughts on that, Jan?
Jan Inglis: I think we would love to feel we have those settings where we had that feeling
of elders being there and sitting around the fire and being able to have that depth and
space and time and comfort and I think that there is a longing and yearning for that. Yet, in
terms of talking about the gaps, our ways of coming together are so not that and also, I
mean, I guess what I would like to say too is when Ive seen us try to set up some of those
settings I have found them at times very non-authentic. I have seen us strive to move
towards something that we have a longing for and then in order to do that we have not
known how to call each other on things or call ourselves on things. Weve created
situations where, in order to create the feel-good or to create the sense of belonging, we
have maybe not taken the challenge of leadership. And where we've raised some of the
issues we need to raise about what is this group trying to do and are we able to do that
and what is it that we need to learn and move in to some of the places where some of the
hard things come up and I don't mean doing that in a harsh judgment because we need to
do it with, of course, a place of compassion but not just a compassion for us as individuals
but for us as a species in terms of the complexities that we are dealing with. I guess I feel
concerned at times about the I guess it is a kind of a feel-good narcissism that we could
slide into that I think could prevent us from working with some of the challenges that we
have.
So how do we create? How do we even recognize if we've got some of those elders
amongst us? How we support them? How do we have communities that both challenge
and support each other so we become elders together? I think this is a sense of where the
leadership people come and go from that in terms of at times feeling isolated. If you are
going to start raising challenges you are going to be taking risks and feeling at times that
you do not belong and then have to dig deep to say, Well does this still feel like what I
need to raise? And hopefully having a community of people that are willing to both push
and pull you, so the leadership arises from that collaborative energy, so that the wisdom
comes from the fact that we have stepped into some new territory.
I think academia used to do that where there was a push and a pull on peoples thinking,
and I think academia has lost some of that - there has been a sense of forcing everyone to
think the same way - but we do need those places where our thinking gets really
challenged and that we have to say why we are thinking what we are thinking, that we
have to form our leadership because of the fact that we've needed to dig into what are our
assumptions. Where did we get our assumptions from? What are we building our thoughts
on? How can we open those up to being critiqued by others? How does that impact the
kind of choice of actions that we collectively or individually make so that we do have that
collaborative but not necessarily always supportive setting in which the leadership
emerges.
David Faber: What I am hearing you describe, Jan, and this could be in my language, but
for creating a safe space, creating trust amongst people who are coming together so that
they can be candid with each other but know they are able to leave the room if you would
and still be able to work together. How would you see trust and all of this, is that
something that would help develop what you are saying that ability to both push and pull
without losing the authenticity.
Jan Inglis: Yes, of course. And I think that there is that sense, I mean, for me and probably
for many people listening and the both of you would feel this too. It is like, trust comes and
goes, it is like I can feel it and I can kind of take a risk on something and then - wow - it
can feel like it is all gone and I have to put the pieces back together inside myself and dig
deep. And then risk putting something out to somebody else and then - whoosh - there is
the trust again! So there is a dynamic-ness with that. That is something that we need to be
aware that we are creating and losing with each other all the time, I think. So, and needing
to create and set the setting, as you said, for that to be hopefully held enough so that you
can lean into it, that you can take the risk with each other, that you can ask the hard
questions and know that it is not going to be seen so personally but it is about co-creating
something and that the co-creation, for it to be transformative, for it to be something that
is going to be better than our thinking was before, it's going to have to go through some
vulnerable places. But - you know - I certainly know for me that I have to re-find that place
of trust inside myself and with other people because of that edge that it plays. It is not just
like I can sit and expect it to be there and be upset at other people for not providing it,
because it just comes and goes. So there is just that dynamic of working with the many
voices in me and the many voices that are around me as a dynamic evolutionary force in
itself.
David Faber: So, based on that, actually one of the things that I have a question for you is
that, you know, the challenging of the thinking, actually challenging the thinking of what
are we doing right now, in this dialogue. How do we challenge the thinking that we are
putting out there? What would you suggest, Jan?
Jan Inglis: Well, one thing that I think helps, is to say, What is it that we are trying to do
together?, What would be some of the outcomes that we are going to do? and then see,
well, How are we doing with that? Then we have something against which we can put
that challenge.
Otherwise it can just kind of float around, if... you know... challenges that are maybe about
many, many things. Being able to have some sense of why it is that the "we" has come
together, what is it we would like to do? And I think that that is a good holding tank for us
to be in. To, kind of, when people come together, what is it that we would like to do in this
coming together? It could be a very formal meeting that we are trying to do something, it
could be something, like, you know, what is it that the UN people come together to do at
the conference about climate change. Well, they are trying to impact that so how are we
doing with that. Or it could just be three people coming together to discuss something
which is much more esoteric and just opens their hearts and minds together. Being able to
have that evaluativeness to say, How are we doing with this?, have places by which you
know that you can bring that place of evaluation in and then that becomes a part of culture
of your small group gathering, your larger group gathering, to be able to say, "How are we
doing with that?" How are the "we" doing with that, as well as how are the individuals
doing with that?
David Faber: Hmm... Well, Graham, a question as we move through this. I'd like to focus
on the examples and your experiences. What's one place that you recommend getting
started? How do people get started?
Graham Boyd: One of the things that I really love is the whole area of non-violent
communication of Marshall Rosenberg. I find that a very, very powerful way to do exactly
what you are talking about, Jan, which is to engage with yourself in dialogue in a
compassionate way that recognizes your vulnerability. For me, I find that a very good way
of starting off. But for that to really work there are a couple of things that need to come
with it. There was a talk a while back by somebody who has been engaged with Integral
for a while, I forget the individuals name, from Australia, and he said that every time he
was with Ken it was absolutely wonderful and then he went back to his University, back
into the old environment and, well, everything that he just picked up disappeared again.
That's one of the things that we are doing in TetraLD is how do you take the entire
environment around somebody from the Integral perspective and make sure that if you
want certain behaviors in Upper Right, like effective dialogue with yourself and with each
other, what else has to be in place in the organization and in the other three quadrants to
support that? One of the areas where that ties in, as I mentioned Brian Robertson with
Holacracy, that is one organizational design that enables this kind of thing to happen.
Another good place to start, you were talking Jan, about creating trust, recognizing what
are we trying to do together and generating a safe space where people can be vulnerable. I
also find very powerful the ideas of chaordic organization design that Dee Hock pioneered
a few decades ago in creating the Visa Corporation. Putting into place highly dynamic
structures centered around purpose, principles and people that enable a group of people
to have very, very high trust as they navigate that very, very fine line between chaos and
order, that line where everything is unpredictable, you have to remain vulnerable and
open to newness every instant, exactly the line that evolution is walking along on the
planet and has walked along since the beginning of evolution. Those are some of the things
that I can suggest as good places to start.
David Faber: Thank you, Graham! And Jan, how about yourself, what would you
recommend to people listening to this call, where would they have a recommended start?
Jan Inglis: Well, if the question is "what do we start to do", of course, I am going to say "To
do what?" Yes, I am just going to put that back to you: what is the question in reference to?
David Faber: I am looking at it, so as Graham and yourself have been talking about in
terms of the new capacities that need to be established going forward and be able to have
these types of conversations, what would you suggest in terms of a place to start? Or
where should people start when they are interested in doing this? And I think we also
touched on the authenticity and you can, you know, try to put all these things in motion
and it's not authentic and it actually makes things worse because of that. What would you
recommend?
Jan Inglis: Ok, that gives me a framework, so I am glad I inquired. Well, obviously, I think,
people who are on this call they are already started, I mean, that there is some place that
just compelled you to be looking for more. And I think to listen to that and there is a lot of
stuff out there: there are a lot of things to read and listen to, a lot of gurus and a lot of wise
people and a lot of material to read. So, I think the sense of being able to say, to be able to
put those questions to yourselves - What is it that I am wanting that I don't quite have
yet? What is it that I am needing to learn that I want to move towards, that I feel there is
something that is missing to be able to as much as possible give some name to? Then I
think that some materials about that learning will come and there will be some internal
response to that and then you can go "Yes, it fits!" "No, it doesn't", "Gee, this brings this up
and now I feel more inadequate and totally confused".
For me, I know that I've gone through many stages of my process from at one point being
on the street, my arm up in the air shouting out activism statements, blaming various
governments and corporations for whatever they were doing wrong and then it was some
place in which I went "Gee, this doesn't... and I mean it felt good actually, for a while... and
then there was a place at which it felt not so good and I also felt that was not really
working and then I had to really listen to that and say well what else is it that I need to do.
Well then I start learning a lot more about people processes and that took me on into, you
know, depth therapy and then that felt like, "Well, that's going to be it! Everybody needs to
be a therapist and go and do depth therapy and then they'll figure out what has happened.
We need to be really in touch with ourselves - that will be the answer. And then at some
point after working with that for quite a while and promoting that as being the right way
then I kind of went Gee there are things missing here and there is something that does
not fit for me. There is more, there is a whole bunch more things that are happening in the
world that are not being solved by individuals going to therapy.
Then I moved on to doing understanding how we can engage together publicly and
looking at, you know, decision-making processes and public deliberation and setting up
forums for doing that and holding methods by which people could engage. And that was it,
you know, and that was going to be the way and I wanted to promote that. And that also
ended up, you know, not feeling like it held enough because I was realizing that I was
running into, or we as a collective were running into, the set that we've set up: structures
of economics and governance that even if publics do engage were still not dealing with
some of the deep structures of how we understand our relationship with nature and
property and value.
So then I've moved on into yet another field called the Commons and so I think there is
something about ... in each one of those, I did not really... I thought I had a really good
answer... I thought I was really identified with it and you know there was status to do it
and I could earn money and I could say things and I could be an expert, but each one of
them after a while... I'd learned a lot, and then each one of them after a while felt a bit
empty and so then it's having to go and "Well, what's this about? What's the next step?
What else is there?" And you know, kind of going to that vulnerable place of not knowing
and hunting around and finding some people that you feel attracted to or some reading
that you feel attracted to that really resonates with what it is that you are really deeply
looking for. That feels that there has not been resonance before. That's where authenticity
sort of comes but it comes and goes. I mean, I know in the looking around I kind of go, "Is
this it? Not sure about that." And then just having to dig in and start the process of
learning again, you know, and that means that you are knocked off you past expert role
and just floundering around as a newbie again and so there is a lot of confusion in that too.
It is not always that it feels authentic and strong, but authentic and vulnerable. But I think
that that sense of What is it that I am looking for that I do not have? What is it that I am
wanting to focus my life on and do change in? What is it that, kind of, resonates with that,
that feels authentic? What is it that I am feeling passionate about learning and finding
places and people to do that learning with? And, you know, thank goodness, you were
saying Graham, for the Internet, we've got ways of connecting and ways of finding
information you can Google different groups of things and people and organizations and
situations and so much of that learning is available for free and then you can hopefully
find communities to share with so that you are not learning on your own and I mean this
call and this situation that Marilyn [Hamilton] has set up is one of those, so... You are
already on the path.
David Faber: What I hear you saying is that listening to yourself and where you are at, as
well and going back to leadership happens anywhere - that idea that it's a verb and not a
noun. Thank you so much to Jan and Graham for your insights. I found it personally
informative there are many nuggets to take away.

i
Dr. Crawford Stanley (Buzz) Holling, OC is a Canadian ecologist and Emeritus Eminent Scholar and Professor in Ecological
Sciences at the University of Florida

Integial City eLab 0ctobei 1u, 2u12
1

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Speakei: }ean Bouston
Bost: Naiilyn Bamilton
Septembei 12, 2u12

?("1 @<:%,<1, Ph.B., scholai, philosophei, authoi, lectuiei, teachei, anu
ieseaichei in human capacities, is one of the foiemost visionaiy thinkeis
anu uoeis of oui time. She has long been iegaiueu as one of the piincipal
founueis of the Buman Potential Novement. Bi. Bouston is known foi hei
intei-uisciplinaiy peispective ueliveieu in inspiiational anu humoious
keynote auuiesses. Since 2uuS, she has been woiking with the 0niteu
Nations Bevelopment Piogiam, tiaining leaueis in human anu cultuial uevelopment as
well as in Social Aitistiy, a community-leaueiship tiaining piogiam that she uevelopeu.
Togethei with othei inteinational agencies anu companies, ovei the last 4S yeais, Bi.
Bouston has woikeu in ovei 1uu countiies.

A"/#*=1 @"8#*,<12 I met }ean a numbei of yeais ago at Royal Roaus 0niveisity, at which
time I leaineu about hei piouigious talents foi cookeiy, anu hei ueep love, connection,
anu affinity foi the canine woilu. I've also been piivilegeu to ieau many of }ean's books,
anu stuuy hei appioach to the integial fiaming anu integiation. I also have to confess that
I've been attuneu by }ean into the tiibe of the Sages. I have a special affection foi hei
because she was piesent at the launch of my book in 2uu8. So }ean, welcome to The City
2.u 0nline confeience.
I noticeu that we'ie both in the same time zone, as aie many of oui speakeis. it's a hot
"Ring of Fiie" on this iim of the Pacific. What a goou image to think about exploiing the
stoiies of the city. }ean woiks with inuiviuual psyches, cultuies, anu has tiavelleu the
planet. So what woulu she know about the city. Woulu you stait to tell us how we might
uiscovei the City, not by looking iight at it, but by looking at the space aiounu it, the Planet
of Cities, as we exploieu last week. Bow uoes that affect how you see cultuie, anu what's
changing as you tiavel.
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 1u, 2u12 2
?("1 @<:%,<12 Well, Naiilyn, what I am seeing in cultuie, anu paiticulaily in cities,
because, aftei all, with so many people getting togethei anu ciossing the gieat uiviue of
otheiness, theie is this huge kinu of cultuial exchange. I woulu have to say that a new
species is being cookeu in the ciucible of fusion; the membiane between cultuies anu,
paiticulaiity in the city, the membiane between cultuies, between woilus, between olu
anu new ways of being, is bieaking uown. Wheieas in the past, migiations anu uiffusions
alloweu foi giauual changes anu exchanges between cultuies, cities, anu iuentities.
Nothing is giauual! We aie liteially watching a speeueu up movie of stiange, multi-cultuial
mitosis, anu as stiangeis spawn in the city, especially cultuies thousanus of miles apait,
which has gestateu in the womb of piepaiatoiy time foi thousanus of yeais, aie suuuenly
check-by-jowl in the subway, in the same schools, woiking in the same businesses, shaiing
the same space. Anu inevitably, bleeuing into each othei. Sometime in fuiy; sometime in
fiienuship; often in maiiiage. When you look at the natuie of uiveisity in the cities,
looking at the 0niteu States anu Canaua, they'ie simply not white people, but an incieuible
blenu.
In the foice of this meeting, a new genesis is occuiiing. You might even call it a seconu
genesis of the human iace. It's a meluing of genes, yes; but moie often a mingling of
pieviously uiviueu anu uistinguisheu woilus, when thiown togethei, aie unueigoing a sea
change into something veiy iich anu veiy stiange. What iesults is not meiely a
hyphenateu amalgam, i.e. Afio-Asian iock music, oi Nexican cybeipunk ait. But hybiiu
sounus foi hybiiu cells.
The self itself is being shifteu anu becoming magnanimous in its cultuial muchness; a kinu
of malleable syncietic fusion that's geneiating its own cultuial matiix. Foi human beings,
the complexity of this not yet uefinable cultuie is, I believe - anu this is wheie I biing in
the psychic space of the inuiviuual in the city - it's pioviuing sufficient stimulus to call
foith latencies, possibilities in the human biain-minu-psyche-system that, in a sense, weie
nevei neeueu befoie. It's not unlike in ancient evolution, bacteiia leaining to bieathe
iathei than uie when the cultuie of oxygen came. 0i closei to home, the ways in which
chiluien immeuiately absoib the mysteiy of computei wizaiuiy, sometimes at two yeais
olu, while theii paients aie stiuggling.
To see this cioss cultuial stimulation in a city, just watch Westein bouies poui themselves
into Eastein yogas anu maitial aits. Boing things that people bieu on milk anu calcium
weie nevei meant to uo, given the calcium ueposits on theii knees! 0i something that I
enjoy uoing in New Yoik City up in Bailem is to attenu a woikshop in gospel singing foi
}apanese touiists; they uo this iegulaily at the Nemoiial Baptist Chuich in Bailem. You
watch people who have known centuiies of bowing ceiemoniously, clap anu sway fiom
siue to siue. Piepaieu foi eveiy foimal couitesy, belting out spiiit-quaking songs -
"Amazing uiace, how sweet is the sounu," you know.
This bieakuown of the membiane, that you paiticulaily finu in cities, is not meiely
cultuial fusion. It's a kinu of joining togethei of the geogiaphies of the minu anu bouy that
have nevei toucheu befoie. It's weaving of synapsis anu sensibilities to cieate people who
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 1u, 2u12 S
aie fuseu into the woilu minu. I'm convinceu the woilu minu is taking a walk with itself.
0nce that happens, it has unlimiteu tieasuies, extiaoiuinaiy mixtuies of stoiies that aie
shifting the natuie of stoiy itself. Empoweiing capacities. I think this is evolution as
evocation. the quickening chaige of cultuial mitosis in oui veiy cells, paiticulaily in the
cities. Not only thiough commeice anu tiavel anu technology anu meuia, we aie being
catalyzeu into ways of being, that a few shoit yeais ago weie the stuff of fantasy anu myth.
The shift in consciousness is happening all aiounu us is a kinu of unstoppable, positive - a
kinu of positive plague, a kinu of meta-viius that is multiplying in oui miust. Fiom foou, to
music, to liteiatuie, to theatie. The veiy liniment of cultuie anu consciousness is making
itself.
Look, foi example, at foou. Ny mothei's name was Naiia Annunciata Seiaphina uiaziella
Fioiina Peipetua Touaio. She was boin in Siiacusa, Sicily. She comes to New Yoik anu
theie she meets my fathei, }ack Bouston fiom Texas. Anu they hateu each othei's foou. Ny
uau coulu not abiue the smell oi look of gailic. "Naiy, those uamneu things aie stinkbugs!
That's what the olu witch women uown in Texas thiew aiounu theii necks to fight off
the." What was I going to uo at eight yeais olu when I iealizeu theie weie ieal pioblems
in that maiiiage. So I became the woilu's fiist fusion cook, like making chicken fiieu
polenta, tiying to keep them togethei. Foi example, the palette is the palette of the cultuie.
The topogiaphy of the tongue alone tiavels vast geogiaphies of taste. Sweet, soui, salty,
spicy, bittei; each has its own uomain in the taste buus.
So what you finu - this is veiy impoitant, since you biought up foou; let's just go with it.
Biffeient cultuies get contiacteu to specific alliances acioss the geogiaphy of the tongue.
Which is why Chinese foou uoes not taste like Nexican, noi Fiench like Egyptian. Each
nation of taste cultivates a uistinct gustatoiy coalition of foou, anu theii piepaiation that
effects consciousness in veiy ieal ways. This makes foi the most significant uiffeiences in
people.
You take the town of Nelbouine, Austialia. 0nce when I saunteieu uown Fitzioy Stieet, I
encounteieu, in this foimei outpost of ovei-cookeu sheep iestauiants, the cuisines of
Afghanistan, Ethiopia, uuam, Fiji, westein China, south Inuia, Sicily, the Philippines,
Piovence, Tibet, Tasmania - I mean a sampling of these iestauiants leaves the tongue
tingling with a kinu of gustatoiy map of the woilu. What it uoes to consciousness is
pioviue the stimulus foi a multi-cultuial awaieness. It's the woilu minu at table . I say
uine globally, think globally - it's the seciet ingieuient of inteinational peace! You tell me
what you eat, anu I'll tell you what you know. You ieally cannot ietain the habits of
claustiophobia anu paianoia while buining with the enuoiphin-inuuceu bliss of Nexican
chili peppeis. I can go on anu on about this.
Now is this an exaggeiation. 0f couise! But biing nations togethei at the table, anu you
finu extiaoiuinaiy things happen. Same thing is happening in music, anu in liteiatuie. Anu
it paiticulaily happens in the city. Ny paients met in New Yoik City. They uiu not meet in
Sicily oi Ballas, Texas. This then goes foi stoiies, foi who wiites the most inteiesting
stoiies about Englanu, but a }apanese man.
Woilu music. listen to music ovei the last uecaues anu you aie a witness to a
piolifeiation of genetic changes woithy of the olu Nanuel's geneiation of teas anu fiuit
flies. Because music, by its veiy natuie, mixes anu mutates accoiuing to the sounus of the
shifting woilu. The globe is gaiiulous, but even moie, it sings with the music of all its
people. Suppose you weie a tians-galactic musicologist, anu you hau an occasion eveiy
hunuieu yeais oi so to fly ovei the eaith, picking up the sounus. A hunuieu anu fifty yeais
ago, you woulu have heaiu each iegion echo with a unique musical style. The peicussive,
multi-ihythms of Afiica, the lilt of Iiish laments, oi the sitai meuitations of Inuia. But now
you'ie stunneu at what is aiising fiom the eaith at this new millennium. You hovei ovei
Noith Ameiica, anu you heai Fieu Bo anu the Afiican-Asian music ensemble, blenu of
woilu music, piogiessive jazz, into a soulful fusion of Chinese opeia, Count Basie, anu
Asian folk songs. You can go on anu on, anu it is phenomenal what you aie heaiing. The
univeise only knows what they'll think of next. Theie's iauical sociology going on.
Immigiant populations establishing theii iuentity anu psychic health, in cities thioughout
the planet by cieating, foi example, a music that upholus the soul wheie they came fiom,
while auopting the untiauitional music of the mainstieam. It's the music of the uiaspoia.
You can look at a whole new metaphysics. I think of going into a town once in Nontana,
anu going into a convent, St Naiy's. An eighty-five yeai olu nun says "0h, welcome to St.
Naiy's. Befoie the mass, woulu you like to go to the sweat louge, anu then we aie going to
have a powwow." Beie aie two uiviueu anu uistinguisheu woilus wheie we can have all
these uiffeient spiiitual exploiations in one place, that befoie woulu have been absolutely
impossible. It's activating a metaphysical gene anu piobably moving us to not new
ieligions, but a woilu spiiituality. This is something that is happening in cities anu that's
why theie is, at least cultuially, a metaphysical, spiiitual, psychological, physical, sensoiy
uiive that is moving us, in just a few coaise yeais, into something that hitheito woulu have
taken many, many geneiations; anu peihaps a thousanu yeais oi moie.
A"/#*=12 }ean, what a iich, iich table you've set heie. I think you have openeu up the city
so eveiyone can ielate to the stoiy that's emeiging aiounu the tables. Because that's
wheie all the best stoiies come fiom anyway. That's wheie all the best stoiies aie, oui
best paities aie in the kitchen. I know that's how you cook up youi stoiies. You've
confesseu that befoie. Wiiting is not youi foite. but cooking ceitainly is. I think you'ie
inspiiing me to think about, not only the foou fusion, anu us being in the Pacific Rim anu
Pacific Coast heie. That tenus to be a phiase that is tosseu aiounu a lot. The foous of the
West anu East aie fuseu in gieat cuisines heie.oi youi walk uown the stieet of
Nelbouine.
I am also thinking, anu maybe you'u like to comment on it moie, I know that when people
shaie foou, they actually piouuce the hoimone oxytocin, anu it is a bonuing hoimone.
(}ean: Inueeu, inueeu.) Bo you see that that is also happening. That people who weie
maybe meat anu potatoes anu nevei hau anything else in theii chiluhoou; anu now when
they step into this woilu of cities, anu the woilu IN all of oui gieat cities, that, in fact, they
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 1u, 2u12 S
uon't iealize it, but they aie bonuing with cultuies just by joining them in bieaking bieau.
oi focaccia.
?("12 I think theie's no question of that. You have, on the psychological level, a bonuing
that you woulu not get by just sitting uown anu tiying to sign agieements. Anu the music,
you aie uoing each othei's uances. Anu the foou, you'ie ciossing the gieat uomain of the
geogiaphies of the minu, anu activating all kinus of capacities you nevei thought you hau.
This is paiticulaily what you finu in cities, as opposeu being way out in the countiy
somewheie. This is evolution in action.
Talking about cultuie in geneial, cultuie at piesent is in a state of massive shift, anu what
some see as bieakuown. Along with this, let's look at the shauow siue. It's a kinu of
cathaisis of histoiy anu tiauition. At the same time, a seeking foi new aichitectuies of
meaning anu foims. Ceitainly, the uisintegiation of bounuaiies, of values, of conventions,
anu of all of the foimal iules that once containeu the aits. Nost of oui usual ways of
looking at oui woilu aie in tiansition. You coulu say this stems not just fiom cities, but
fiom global consumei capitalism, enviionmental ueteiioiation. Nost of all, the enu of a
cycle of time, anu the beginning of a new cycle. What uiu those olu Nayans ieally know.
Was it the coming of the ninth ciicle of hell; oi heaven on eaith. 0i is it an absolute shift in
time; a shift - the beginning of a new cycle. The shifting of the evolution of consciousness.
Finally, anu this may be the big stoiy that's unueilying all stoiies - the seeing of the
uisillusion of foim, that you paiticulaily see in cities. Is it a cause foi celebiation anu
iauical ienewal. Foi example, I uon't just look at political happenings. I look at the ueepei
stiuctuies of cultuie, anu what is happening. Because theie aie such - anu you finu this
paiticulaily in the cities - such a multituue of woilu views touay, that one has to seek
beyonu them foi a pattein that connects. This is what I tiy to uo in seeking what's
happening in what's been calleu cultuie.
Now, fiist of all, what's cultuie.
Cultuie is the imminent coie of a people's yeaining. It is wheie communal meaning is
cieateu. It is the gieat living aichive of shaieu wisuom. Cultuie becomes the miiioi of the
life of a people, moving with them in seivice to theii eveiy enactment of the puipose of
existence. Take gestuie. When I go into uiffeient cultuies to woik with them, I uon't go as
goou olu }ean. I uiess the way they uo. If I'm in Inuia, I may actually get a tan, uaiken my
skin a bit. Theie's nothing I can uo about my height; when I go to Southein Inuia, because I
am a foot tallei, they ask, "Aie you fiom Belhi." foi they aie much tallei than the people
fiom the south! I leain theii songs. I leain theii jokes. This is veiy impoitant. You've got to
leain theii jokes. That's how you cioss the gieat uiviue of otheiness. I leain theii music.
Anu I am veiy inteiesteu in theii key stoiies, theii myths. By myth, I mean the coueu BNA
of the human psychic, that which gives the meaning anu iichness anu puipose of theii
existence. If you leain theii myths, anu then tiain people in uiffeient cultuies thiough the
telling of the myths, oi the ietelling of the myths.
Foi example, in Inuia, I will use the Ramayana, oi the stoiy of uanuhi. In China, I may use
the gieat aichetypical stoiy of monkey, which has so many uiffeient tiemenuous, mystic
foims. When I'm woiking with Aboiiginal people in cential Austialia, I'll use the gieat
song lines, oi some of the gieat stoiies of cieation by the aichetypes that cieateu the lanu.
I finu that if you use the coie stoiy of a cultuie while you aie weaving thiough the kinus of
things that come up in the stoiy that give you access to, "well, this is the way the gieat
cieatoi of the Ramayana plungeu into himself, to tap into his tiemenuous stoies of
cieativity"; that allows us to tap into the cieativity. If I'm woiking with Celtic, oi
pieviously Celtic lanus, with the stoiy of Paisifal anu the giail. We ieally look at what is
within us that is within the gieat chalice, abunuance is scoopeu fiom abunuance, anu still
moie abunuance iemains! If I'm in Albania, I take the stoiy of the seven biotheis who save
the piincess, who's been abuucteu by the uemon, anu each of the biotheis has a
tiemenuous capacity. 0ne has high senses anu can heai wheie the uemon is; anothei can
open the eaith. This allows us then not only to expanu oui own capacities, but to open the
uepths of ouiselves. Anothei can fling away the shauows, that allows us to look at the
natuie of oui shauows, in self anu society. What I uo in these uiffeient cultuies anu cities
anu aieas, is finu, "What is the coie stoiy." Because the stoiy will often biing up not just
the genius of the cultuie, but the genius that's iesiuing in the infinite cultuie that we each
contain within us.
A"/#*=12 }ean, that is a ieal poweiful image foi me in tiying to think about the city in a
new paiauigm. I imagine that cities aie going to uiscovei that they actually have a puipose
in seivice to a much laige system. the planet. Anu that theie is a ielationship between the
cities anu uaia's own capacity of oui mothei Eaith, anu the motheiboaiu of a new
opeiating system, if you wanteu to use that image. What I am leaining fiom you is
something that is active. That each city has a coie stoiy that will emeige as they uiscovei
theii own puipose. I think evolutionaiily, cities aie just shifting into a iealization that
theie is anothei level in which they actually opeiate anu aie sustainable at. Bo you think
I'm off base in imagining that cities might uiscovei what you aie painting in this gloiious
pictuie of uiveigence, coming togethei anu uiscoveiing that theie aie "a million stoiies in
the City." A million stoiies coming togethei, anu that at this point in time, we'ie calleu to
listen to them, anu notice how eveiybouy's stoiy in coming togethei is actually
contiibuting to the iichness of that. Can you say moie about this iichness. You mentioneu
eailiei, geneiating new connections. Actually, biain science says that when you make
connections acioss youi synapses, oi acioss the stoiies of inuiviuual people at that scale,
you'ie actually co-cieating whole new possibilities.
?("12 Not only co-cieating new possibilities, but I think, anu I tiuly believe this, you aie
cieating a iesponse to a iequiieu evolution. Foi example, the enu of wai, the enu of
violence. If I, oi my colleagues, as I uiu in noith anu south Iielanu, you get the people to
come togethei anu finally begin to shaie theii stoiies. The stoiies all activate othei stoiies.
You tell the stoiy. What happens. It activates a stoiy in the othei peison, uoesn't it.
Suuuenly, you aie not at wai anymoie. You aie uoing the same thing that was uone foi
tens of thousanus of yeais, as we sat aiounu the campfiie. We shaieu the stoiies that then
gave us a shaieu cultuie. Because what was missing in noith anu south Iielanu was a
sense that they even hau a shaieu cultuie. Which, in fact, they hau. Theii music was
similai, theii foou was similai, many of theii iueas weie similai. But what was most
impoitant was that theii stoiies weie similai.
Let me give you an example fiom Inuia - the caste system. The caste system sets up veiy
big uiviues in cultuie. I was inviteu to woik with high executives of the Tata coipoiation,
which is the biggest coipoiation in Inuia. Nost of them weie of veiy high caste. When I
wasn't woiking with them, I was off in neaiby villages. I was going to veiy piimitive
temples wheie the gous weie theie, anu caiveu in wonueiful wiluly coloiful ways. An olu
man came up anu saiu |with an Inuian accentj, "Sistei, you know you see that theie is
Lakshmi, who gives veiy goou things foi life. Anu uanesh, he lifts all the pioblems in theie;
anu then you have Shiva. but ultimately, it's all the same. it is all oneness.
Anu then I'u gone back anu staiteu to talk to people, anu they'u say, |with an Inuian
accentj, "Well, you know we aie not alloweu to have any goou jobs with the coipoiations.
We just clean the bathiooms; anu we'ie bettei than that." Because they weie low caste. So
I woulu go back to the high boaiu executives anu talk about the ueep wisuom I was finuing
in the villages. They saiu, "Why uo you go theie. Those aie veiy uiity piimitive people."
Anu I woulu say, "Wait a minute. Those aie veiy goou people." Then I actually biought
them togethei - the high caste executives anu the low caste people of the villages. It was
veiy inteiesting, because I askeu the village people to biing along the eight yeai olu boy
who was a genius on the tabla, the uium. Be staiteu out uiumming these immensely
intiicate ihythms, anu saying he wanteu to giow up to be the gieatest uiummei of the
tabla. Then they began to talk about theii chiluhoous, anu how one fiom the high caste
woulu talk about tiying to leain the sounus of the ancient Sanskiit. Anu anothei woulu
talk about how to be able to talk to his gianufathei, who came fiom a uiffeient iegion.
They shaieu stoiies, anu as they shaieu stoiies, they got closei anu closei togethei. Anu as
they became closei anu closei togethei, they iealizeu that they weie not hoiiible to each
othei anymoie. As a iesult of that, they set up management piogiams so that the people
fiom the villages who weie just sciubbing bathiooms weie now in tiaining piogiams to
uo highei oiuei types of woik. They began to shaie not just theii stoiies, but theii songs.
What happeneu in those few weeks was the oveicoming of the uiviue that hau sepaiateu
them, liteially, foi thousanus of yeais. It's that kinu of thing that can happen when people
shaie theii stoiies anu theii life. Theie's nothing moie piofounu oi univeisal than that
shaiing of stoiies, wheie they cioss the gieat uiviue of otheiness. Anu in this case, the
even laigei uiviue of the caste system.
A"/#*=12 This is such a piofounu stoiy of connecting the self anu the othei, anu biiuging
that uiviue anu that we shaie a common humanity. Bow. To uiscoveiing in this invitation,
thiough the young boy to biing in the uium. I just hau similai expeiience in Leon, Nexico.
I hau been inviteu to speak at a citizen's symposium about biinging a new appioach to the
city. I askeu the uay befoie we hau the symposium if I coulu have a toui of the city,
because I haun't been theie, I was woiking with a colleague who was actually a iesiuent of
the city anu a consultant to the symposium. In that walk aiounu the city, we came to the
iailway tiacks. Anu just as you piobably saw in Inuia, the inuigenous people hau come to
the city anu settleu along the iailway tiacks. Places you anu I woulu be scaieu to ueath to
live. But they hau actually cieateu the most wonueiful cultuie. They inviteu us to sit uown.
They gave us iefieshments, anu tolu us stoiies in theii little chapel, about how they caieu
foi euucating theii chiluien. They hau people in theii gioup, not only go thiu high school,
but get into univeisity. When we finisheu this, the people fiom the citizen's symposium
weie on theii cell phones saying, "Nom, I nevei. uo you know this pait of the city. I nevei
knew it existeu." 0i "Wow! Ny colleague, oi my biothei, oi myself, hau no iuea this was
even pait of the city." Somebouy hau the wonueiful suggestion that they shoulu invite
these people to the symposium the next uay. I was conceineu that they might be a little
oveiwhelmeu of the univeisity setting. They uiun't all speak Spanish, so they might neeu
tianslatois. The long stoiy shoit was, they came to the symposium. Theie weie 12 of them,
anu about 6uu people theie. They stole the show! They weie so couiageous. They weie so
wanting to tell theii stoiy. Anu able to be authentic anu ask foi what they wanteu. They
actually showeu eveiybouy else the potential of the city that they haun't seen. Soit of
biinging up fiom this coie intelligence that belongeu to these inuigenous people.
Something the mouein minu hau no longei accepteu as a stoiy. That was ieally valueu oi
valuable. It was the ihythm of theii veiy coloiful clothes, how they coulu actually connect
with otheis, anu uiffuse themselves thioughout the ioom. They actually changeu the
whole natuie of that symposium. So }ean, the iuea of finuing a new stoiy of the city sounus
to me like it has its ioots alieauy in the inuiviuual psyches that you talk about. The
collection of cultuies that aie now cheek-by-jowl in the city. The stoiies aie kinu of
giowing themselves as they'ie exchangeu.
I know you have been a stuuent of }oseph Campbell. Anu I have listeneu foi yeais to
ieplays of Bill Noyei's tapes on that. I'm cuiious if you have any comments about the iole
that we've alloweu meuia to play in cities. Bave we maybe let the meuia tell stoiies, anu
now we neeu to actually ielease ouiselves into not having those veiy tailoieu, focuseu
sounu-bite stoiies, anu come back into this iich exchange that can happen aiounu the
table with inuiviuuals, oveifloweu with music. Can you comment about what you see
meuia has an oppoitunity to uo now.
?("12 Neuia is not simply the television channels anu stoiies anymoie, is it. Now with the
inteinet, anu these kius with theii tianscenuental callous thumbs texting each othei.
Theie's soit of an ongoing, sometimes boiing, but at least continuous way that young
people, especially, aie channeling theii uailyness. "What's up. What u know. the mall.
What i u seeing." It's an ongoing jouineying anu chionicling that was nevei theie befoie
in histoiy. Ny concein about television, anu }oe Campbell was a veiy close fiienu of mine
anu we uiu vaiious seminais togethei. Be uieu in 1987, so he misseu a lot of what has
happeneu with the meuia. 0ne thing we talkeu about at the time is that the heio's jouiney
is theie only in little tiny pieces, in blips. You uon't get the full piocess of the jouiney. So
what has happeneu is the lack of the piocess. The lack of the call. The lack of heaiing the
call. "0k! Bown on S6th Stieet, theie seems to be a muiuei going on." Anu blip! Suuuenly
he answeis the call, anu he uoesn't giow. At the enu, kiss-kiss; bye-bye, anu it's ovei. What
has happeneu is that the heaith that containeu the whole stoiy was ieplaceu by the
television set with its "blipping" of the stoiy, anu not the full piocess. I think what is
happening with the inteinet, howevei, is that theie's much moie piocess as you finu youi
fiienus anu you shaie much moie ueeply. Why aie people so auuicteu to Facebook. I'm
not in favoi of it, anu I have my own Facebook page
1
, wheie I uo tiy to tell stoiies. But
people aie at least meeting each othei in a way that, again, is allowing them to ieach into a
kinu of uepth anu possibility.
I'll give you a stoiy about the meuia that I think is veiy possible. 0nce in Inuia, we weie
gatheieu aiounu the one television set that was theie. It was owneu by an olu Biahmin
lauy, anu she alloweu people to come in fiom the fielus, anu fiom aiounu the aiea to
watch the Ramayana, the gieat mythic tale of Inuia, wheie you have the stoiy of Piince
Rama anu his magnificent wife Piincess Sita, who hau been betiayeu of theii kinguom anu
weie living in the foiest. Then Ravana, the gieat uemon of Sii Lanka, came anu abuucteu
hei anu caiiieu hei off. Rama gatheis the aimy of monkeys anu the otheis in oiuei to aftei
teiiible battles, iescue Sita. It was so beautiful. Theie weie thiity sessions. Eveiybouy was
coming in fiom the countiysiue anu fiom the neaiby villages to watch this extiaoiuinaiy
extiavaganza of beauty anu ait anu the high cultuie of Inuia. All theie in this extiaoiuinaiy
seiies of the Ramayana. So I was sitting theie, anu suuuenly the olu Biahma lauy tuins to
me, anu I am saying, "0h this is so goigeous. 0h it is so beautiful. I wish we hau this in
Noith Ameiica." Suuuenly the olu lauy tuins to me anu says, |in an Inuian accentj "0h, I
uon`t like Piincess Sita. She is much too passive. We women in Inuia weie much stiongei
than that. We have to change the stoiy. We have to make hei stiongei. She has to uo the
iescuing, too. She has to be veiy fast anu veiy poweiful, oi she will be a teiiible example."
To which I saiu, "But mauam, this stoiy is at least S,uuu yeais olu." She saiu, "Yes, that's
iight. It is veiy olu. All the moie ieason we have to change it. We have to change the stoiy
anu show Sita as being much stiongei. Ny husbanus name is Rama, anu my name is Sita.
These aie veiy common names in Inuia. Be is a lazy bum. If anything happeneu, I woulu
have to iescue him. We have to change the stoiy to show how stiong women aie."
It was wonueiful. I was listening to the changing of the stoiy, anu the iising of women. The
full paitneiship with men in the whole uomain of human affaiis. Anu aftei that show, what
comes on but the Ameiican show, "Bynasty." I was so embaiiasseu. She tuineu anu saiu,
"Sistei, uon't be embaiiasseu. Can't you see that it's the same stoiy." I saiu, "Bow can you
say that." She saiu, "You've got the goou people, you've got the bau people, you've got
goou veisus evil. Yes, inueeu it is the same stoiy." So heie was the satellite uish uownloau
the kinu of univeisal mythic stiuctuie. But it was also the telling, in that inciuent in Inuia,
of the shifting of the stoiy. You finu it especially in cities, wheie women have to iise to full
paitneiship. With a teiiible amount of backlash, but it's happening. With the iise of

1
http:www.facebook.comui.jean.houston.ief=ts&fief=ts
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 1u, 2u12 1u
women comes the iise of S2% of the human iace in a new oiuei of paitneiship. Also if you
watch what's happening on the inteinet anu on television, it is also showing not only
women anu men, but people of all ages, all ethnicities. You cannot have any kinu of
ongoing television seiies without having black people, Asian people, unknown people,
gieat mixtuies of people. So it's acioss all ethnicities, it's acioss all age gioups, anu it's of
couise the joining of men anu women in full paitneiship. Again, it is the woilu minu, the
woilu bouy, the woilu sense, now walking togethei, leaining togethei anu enteiing into
the mythic stiuctuie of making a bettei woilu togethei.

1

What and where are we implementing cultural / storytelling
intelligence?
Gail Hochachka and John Hawkes
September 12, 2012
Jon Hawkes is the Resident Cultural Analyst at Development Network,
Australia. Sometime circus strongman, underground press editor,
lighthouse keeper and bookseller, Jon is the author of the groundbreaking
The Fourth Pillar of Sustainability: Cultures Essential Role in Public
Planning and is one of Australia's leading commentators on cultural policy.
Fourth pillar thinking has spread worldwide, with Jon making presentations
in the USA, Canada, Ireland, Russia, Spain and New Zealand. Jon has
been Director of Community Music Victoria, a Fellow of the Community Cultural
Development Board (Australia Council), Director of the Australian Centre of the
International Theatre Institute, Director of the Community Arts Board of the Australia
Council and was a founding member of Circus Oz and the Australian Performing Group
(Pram Factory). Jon designs and delivers presentations, consultations, writing and leads
and facilitates debate on community arts, community cultural development and cultural
policy and development.

Gail Hochachka has a BSc in Environmental Science and a MA in
Interdisciplinary Environmental Studies. She engages in projects, capacity
building, research, and writing on integral praxis in sustainable
development in Drishti and in close association with Drishti's partner
organization One Sky. As Adjunct Faculty at JFK University, she taught
graduate students in the MA in the Integral Theory program and leads an
annual Integral Field Course to the global south. She is involved with
Integral Institute in various capacities, such as a co-director of the Integral Without
Borders network and as a member of the Integral Life Spiritual Center. She has authored
articles in academic journals, such as in Ecological Applications, World Futures Journal
and the Journal of Integral Theory and Practice, and has written a book, Developing
Sustainability, Developing the Self: An Integral Approach to International and Community
Development. She is fluent in English and Spanish. Her work with these organizations and
engagement in academia reflects her gift of bringing complex theory into compassionate
action.
David Faber: So today's overall question is: What does designing for cultural
storytelling intelligence contribute to city design?
And well be going and applying and asking questions around three principles of cultural
storytelling intelligence that Marilyn Hamilton has spoken with in her book.
The first of those principles is respecting others; appreciating the differences that
make a difference.
The second principle is listening deeply. Cultural communication deepens more
quickly with more adept listening, and
Thirdly, speak your story and enabled others to speak. This co-creates communities
of storytellers. As our stories become more complex they eventually become stories
of integral practice.
So perhaps Gail we can start with yourself and you telling us your story and I believe you
are connecting that to a PowerPoint presentation you provided.
Gail Hochachka: Yeah, thank you David. Thank you so much for having me on this
conference. It's actually one of the first work engagements I've done for a while because I
have a little baby and I've been on maternity leave and so I'm very grateful to be here
today.
I'm going to tell a story about the work that my colleagues in El Salvador and I are doing
with other colleagues in Canada and Norway have been engaged in, in El Salvador.
Basically, our question has been; in the face of the climate changing, how can we spark and
facilitate a form of adaptation to those effects of climate change? It's a very complex
phenomenon that is often misunderstood or not well understood, by local rural people in
the developing world. And we've been applying integral thinking and an integral approach
to understanding this problem set. I want to share some of the slides [available on the
website at the bottom of the page: http://integralcity.kajabi.com/posts/day-5-september-
12%C2%A0what-and-where-are-we-implementing-cultural-storytelling-intelligence]
from this project as a way to illustrate how a cultural engagement and a storytelling
component has helped us to move toward effective adaptation in northern El Salvador.
In the first slide, there is a picture of a man walking up the steep hill and in this vast
landscape of the north of El Salvador. And I wanted to start with that as just a reminder
that any environmental issue taking place in our landscapes, or in our cities, is profoundly
also a human issue. Particularly these rural and small villages, small townships in El
Salvador have co-evolved with, like the human communities have co-evolved with their
ecosystem to such an extent that when that ecosystem changes due to climate change,
they can't help but affect the people themselves. That said, looking at the slides here; he's
walking up this very steep, very dusty road. These people live so, in a way, so reliant on an
intact climate. This man for example, in the rainy season all that just becomes - basically a
mud slide. And it is there only access points in and out of this small community. So we
worked with this small community, and a smaller town and an even smaller village,
because they're all part of two municipalities in the north of El Salvador. And I believe
that even though it is kind of a more rural example, it is definitely something that can
happen in the city. We just did a pilot in a rural area; it can easily be done in the city.
What is interesting to notice is that theyre experiencing changes in their climate. However,
shifting to the next slide here, with many of these local people having gone through an
education process only up to a certain grade, the science of climate change is often not
well understood. And yet here, in the second slide, its a picture of small church that is in
someones house, they have covered one of the pillars with all these newspapers, and you
can see in one of the middle newspaper articles, even though it is written in Spanish, it is
describing the Climate Change Summit. And so people are immersed in this language
about climate change even though they themselves may not have any scientific
understanding of how it functions or why it is happening, or what kinds of effects in might
have on themselves.
What we did, the next slide here, is we understand that climate change is such a scientific
phenomenon we felt the need to step back a moment and ask local people what they see, if
they can peer from their own perspective, what did they see in terms of climate change the
effects on their lives, and on their families, and on their cities and towns. And we used
photo voice, which is a way of giving local people cameras, and having them explore a
certain question through photography, And, the next slide here, it was a way that we
could invite their first person perspective on the issue of climate change. However, it was
done with small groups; it was done in family groups and in community groups and then
in engaging all three of the communities. So in the way we were building a community
message, starting from peoples first person perspectives, and then moving into a
community perspective, and then a regional perspective.
What I want to do is just show you some of the slides, linked to certain question, just to
give you a sense of what people were seeing and what stories they were coming up with.
And then Ill explain where this has gone since this particular piece using photo voice.
Moving to the next slide, the next two slides are both resolving the question: What is
climate change to me? This first slide is detecting the unpredictable ways the rains are
starting come and then holding back; the rains come, they start to plant - and then
suddenly the rains dont come again. All of the seed that have been planted dont
germinate correctly because of these sorts of erratic weather patterns. The next slide is
another example of what climate change is to local people is just a local river where
people used the water for washing and for irrigation. Its getting less and less full of water.
These are some of the more typical things you would see, both in El Salvador, but
anywhere across the world where this sort of thing is happening. What is interesting
about this is as local people where looking through that camera and linking up with the
question and coming up with their own insights, and then coming back into the group
together, to talk about what they found. They started to realize about how much they
already knew about climate change, about how they were already experiencing a changing
climate around them.
It was quite interesting to see that form of insight arise through this shared storytelling
through photography.
The next three slides are actually around the question: How am I affected by climate
change? And this next one is two boys at the dinner table. And if you look on their plates
they dont have any beans, they have eggs and cheeses, but no beans. They have corn
tortillas, but no beans. This year in El Salvador, and last year, they were not able to harvest
beans because the rains where not cooperating as they have for a millennia. For anyone
who has been to South America, to not have beans on your plate are really an evolutionary
first. I mean that has just never, ever happened. So people have been really struggling to
make sense of that. And the first thing they would say in regards to how they were
already being affected by climate change.
In this next slide it is a really beautiful picture, it is a picture of hilltop and this man took
this photo, realizing that he was effected by climate change in the sense that future
generations of his children, and his childrens children would no longer see this vista that
he had seen and his parents had seen and his grandparents and seen and his great grand
parents had seen. And he started to perceive this sort of multi generational shift that was
taking place with these changes in climate where changes in the ecosystem itself. So it was
a way how he and generations to come where effected by climate change.
And this third of these three slide is a picture of man standing in front of his adobe house
and he took this photo, considering, actually hold on second here. I am sorry the last three
slides are around a different question. They are around the question: How am I already
adapting to climate change? And he took this photo because this old way of building using
adobe bricks and adobe building supplies is one of the ways they can mitigate changes in
temperature in their houses. Often many of these community people and many in these
small towns are reverting back to traditional forms, traditional knowledge, traditional
forms of building and living. And this is one of the examples of the ways they are already
adapting to climate change.
And then this next slide of little boy sitting in a bath tub is another way this family is
adapting to climate change by saving water. The same water they use to bath their
children, they would then use it to irrigate their garden plants around their house.
And then this final slide from this three. A young lady who is planting trees in her
backyard, trying to create more shade for her house, and trying to contribute reforestation
to bringing back some of the natural flora that has been lost in that area. So another way
they have been adapting to climate change.
After these three questions were presented and these three questions where inquired into
using photo voice, then all the people involved got together. In this final slide they laid out
all of their different pictures and took a step back from their own particular picture and
asked: What is the community message about how we are adapting to climate change,
about how we can adapt?
It was quite a difficult process, but they honed down, from literally hundreds of photos,
down to just 30 photos that best presented their story about climate change and how they
were affected and how they could adapt. And taking that message, that story, they then
travelled up to Canada from El Salvador, and travelled through British Columbia sharing
their story in different cities and other communities in Canada. And then also going back
to El Salvador they shared their story with other communities around their own region as
well as in coastal region of El Salvador where climate change is effecting heavy initially
already, and in their capital city. This is a way that by inviting a first person perspective in
terms of being the integral model including the upper left quadrant of human
consciousness and human experience and then engaging in a lower left quadrant or a
cultural process of meaning making and storytelling, we then have positioned ourselves at
I would say that just much better for facing a very complex problem and facing that
problem with insightful and committed way of creating adaptation. From this point on,
now both municipalities have environmental committees they are using to continue the
conversation and planning for adaptation. The idea here is as we invite more first person
perspectives and inter-subjective perspectives of the community we can actually create
more robust designs for adaption in the future.
That was the story I wanted to share with you today. For those who dont have the
PowerPoint in front of them, I encourage to go back at a later date, or after this call and
take a look. They are really interesting photos, the community people came up with. This
is just a sample to show of the photos. It was a very successful project and a very
interesting methodology for addressing the complexities of climate change and adaptation
both at a community level and a larger municipal level and then at the city level. I would
be very interested to see somebody do something like this in a city level.
So thank you, I will hand it back to David, and see where we can go from this.
David Faber: Thank you so much, Gail. For that, actually I am quite struck by the
photographs. As Gail said, if you are able to download the PowerPoint presentation, please
do. Gail you used the language of photo voice. My understanding of photo voice is more of
process of linking photos with a story. Is that what you meant when you said photo voice?
Gail Hochachka: Yes that is right, what we did is we linked photography with a question
so they would take a photo considering it, contemplating that particular question. We
repeated it three times with three different questions. And yes, with each different photo
came a small interpretation, which is essential a small story about what that photo meant.
From that individual story we moved at the community scale, to the community story,
then went global and came to Canada and then move though El Salvador.
David Faber: I find it so powerful to look at those photographs. Especially the one of the
young boy sitting in the bathtub having a bath and what it means to him. Id like to ask
John a question its actually about your story, Gail and just taking a step back and saying,
John from your perspective how does what Gail shared, with her storytelling, how does
help in furthering the conversation?
John Hawkes: Well, what a fantastic project. The idea of linking image and text so to
speak, image and words is key, it seems to me. That the words, alone, are often just simply
not enough in terms of effectively being able to tell a story. So in terms of process and in
terms of medium, its inspirational.
I dont have much to say other than that at this moment, just wanting to take it all in.
Certainly, what a wonderful model and one that would be really interesting in seeing how
it could apply in urban contexts.
David Faber: Very much so and actually taking a look at the photos you think of children
in a community or adults in a community sharing their stories through those photographs
and sharing them back to the community. Ive been part of events where people are
writing down words and capturing how they feel about a place, but to actually connect it
with photographs definitely makes it far more powerful, you can almost picture a collage
about how people feel about - whatever it is in storytelling.
I wonder John if you can elaborate a little bit further in terms of your perspective on
storytelling and how does it contribute to city design.
John Hawkes: Well it seems to me fundamentally we are stories. We from the moment
were born we get our identity is a story. We make meaning by stringing memories
together stringing events together in such a way they make sense. There is a French
philosopher called Delores who invented the phrase called, Framing Chaos. I think that
is what storytelling is, basically. We live in a world of complex systems that we really have
no capacity to see, other than they are chaotic even though we know it is not. And we
spend our lives trying to capture small pieces of that and they have patterns in them.
Patterns are what ground us and give a sense of world we are in and sense of the
relationships we can have with others. So, in one way the, storytelling in sense is the be all
and end all of everything. It is through stories we make sense of the world and those
stories encapsulate our own individual identity and our sense of social identity.
David Faber: I know I can share a little bit of story from my perspective as well. I am
quite fortunate to work quite closely within the indigenous or aboriginal community here
in Canada and storytelling is such a powerful way of sharing how people feel about
something. I have really been able to experience that by attending different ceremonies.
An aspect of even ceremonies assisting even in telling stories of the history of the culture
or the history of an individual or something connected with it. I am wondering actually
Gail, if your experiences with storytelling, of course the work you have done within the
village there, can you elaborate further of the examples you were involved with where it
contributed to the design of the community where storytelling as been part of the
community design.
Gail Hochachka: Yeah, well, I think in this example, through this form of photo voice and
storytelling, both communities became aware of the need of an environmental committee.
Through that environmental community, adaptation of climate change is so much more
viable. For example, whether you are living in an urban or rural place, the changes in
climate, the impacts for the changes in climate are hitting us, and we are subject to those
changes, they are flying at us from all different directions and we are subject to them. And
if you can use story in our case of photo voice as a form of storytelling, as a way to make
the impacts in climate change an object upon which you are operating versus simply just
being subject to them, right, there is a difference there. If you can take it as an object, then
you are much more able to design intentionally for how you want to meet that change and
meet that challenge.
In this very example, in previous years, in fact, the year we started this, 2011, that year
they had a whole array of flooding that happened that took out -- the flood of bridge, the
only access to this region of El Salvador, and nobody had in place any design to meet that
challenge at all. But my hope, and our intention, through this type of a project, these
environmental committees have arisen precisely to have these kinds of conversations and
the kind of planning and kind of design to meet the needs in the future. If not a way to
stop the water, at least a plan for how people are going to find shelter, or find an
alternative routes to the say - to the hospital which is on the other side of that bridge. This
exact project is a very good example of how this can influence design for the future.
David Faber: Its amazing how powerful those images are. It reminds of one of my friends
who is a professionally photographer and he was one of the first people in Canada,
actually Alberta to fly over the oil sands in Northern Alberta and take a photograph of the
waste water ponds which are really like little oceans, seas, inland seas, steaming water
as its being heated and lifting the oil out of the earth. It was incredible. He simply took
that photograph and posted it on his blog. And the reaction that it has caused, there have
been so many people now, who have travelled; very famous people have travelled, to
actually take a look for themselves. The power of the image, the story that it told in that
one photograph, you didnt have to say anything, it was just there. It pulled on so many
people.
I guess I wanted to delve into storytelling and connecting it back to the three principles
that Marilyn [Hamilton] refers to. The first is respecting of others, and appreciating the
differences that make a difference. I have witnessed, of course, in the case of storytelling,
there is two different versions of a story. You know thats with child, its in the public, its
in the media. That respect might not be there. How does that impact the community, if
they are not following the principle that Marilyn refers to. Either one of you, John or Gail,
jump in.
John Hawkes: Its interesting working with indigenous people, because my main work
out the moment is working with indigenous people at a theater company in Melbourne.
And the challenge that company has is so much around those three issues that Marilyn
[Hamilton] raised. In trying to develop contemporary indigenous voice, they increasingly
find themselves rediscovering the story telling principles of their culture. Which it turns
out are very, very different from the dominate culture. And so much of it is tied up with
those three ideas of Marilyns.
A lot of it has to do with whose story is being told. Particularly in theater which is where I
am working at this point. The stories that are embodied in sacred texts, these things
called plays that a theater company takes on. And what this company has been trying to
do is find ways of thinking about theater in a different way. In terms of when you go to this
companys theater, what you are seeing is not a bunch of actors interpreting a story
written by someone else, or directed by someone else. They are presenting their own
stories. The voice you are hearing and seeing is an authentic voice. It is the story of the
person you are witnessing in the moment. Which is very different way of thinking about
what performance is in standard, western ways of thinking of theater.
It seems to me to be very important in terms of trying to find way of creating authentic
stories because; the city is full of stories. The main story out there in most cities is
basically, if you buy stuff you will be happy. The advertising industry basically controls
most of the storytelling in the urban contexts. And those stories are vile. How to find a
way of telling alternative stories is very challenging. It is something we are working on in
this company. And hopefully, the models aboriginal people, in contemporary setting,
come up with are going to be relevant and adaptable by others.
David Faber: John, you touched upon something I would like to explore a little bit further,
it was around the media and urban storytelling. It really strikes me; of course, the media
is the primary source of storytelling, and media generating stories. I wonder if you can
share with us a little more about your experiences with that and perhaps the work in your
theater, and how do you get those messages out. You are working with media and so forth
to ensure the correct story is actually being told, or the story you want told the story as it
is supposed be -- I am trying to find the right language here -- is to be told.
John Hawkes: Well, I have a feeling it is impossible. That all one can do is work in the
margins, which is a place I have become used over this last 50 years. But in a sense, a
whole lot of this comes back to Marshall McLuhan, the famous Canadian. The most
fundamentally effective communication is face to face-- in real time. And whilst the media
in its various forms, dominates in a sense the energy of the planet, the most fundamental
and effective communications are the ones that happen in a live context, rather than ones
that are mediated, so to speak. What I am trying get at is the area this company has
chosen to focus on, and the area I feel most committed to, is situations where you can see
and smell and feel the people who are part of the storytelling process. As in a sense active
and passive members of that process. The live theater so to speak has a whole lot of things
going for it that mediate performance doesnt have. The downside is that you can only
reach those people that you are physical contact with at that time. And the media has all
sorts of ways of extending that connection much, much further. I just have my fears that
those sorts of connections, the media connections arent as effective as things that happen
in real time.
So I guess what I am saying I hope we recognize that there are forms of media are hugely,
hugely important and powerful within our society. They are ones that personally I feel
unable to deal with, and end up going back to, in a sense, to the original communications
site that is sitting around the campfire. It is in the moment of eye contact, of body contact
and smell contact that the most effective communication are made.
David Faber: You said a couple important things. You referenced Marshall McLuhan. I
dont know if a lot of people know, he was a Canadian philosopher one of the things in my
research of Marshall; he coined the phrase the Medium is the Message, and talked a lot
about the global village. One of things he also predicted is the World Wide Web, the
internet essentially - 30 years before it was invented. An ability to share information
dynamically to just get it out there, there was not influence or control. That is what I find
so interesting in your conversation. The Internet is almost a way to get your message out
there and there is not control. And when there have been attempts to control, and just as
recently in the last year both in Canada and the US, to put in place policy to control
internet communication, the reaction has been great that even my eight year old son was
coming home to me at night and talking to me about it. I was astounded when that control
was put in place and how people were talking about it the impact of that.
The other comment that you mentioned about a mediate performance versus and live
performance, it reminded me of concert I recently attended with artist, Yanni. Here in
Edmonton and the end it was a fabulous concert and at the end he stopped and spent 10
minutes talking about how important it is to work with each other, to love each other, to
be harmony with each other. And he captured that audience in such a profound way and
to think of him going around the world and here I am now telling the same story -- of how
he has been trying to capture the story in his work.
Id like to actually connect back to you, Gail, and go back to the three principles as well.
And in that, in your experiences, so you did the work on storytelling with pictures and
photo voice, the presentation you went through with us. Did people actually listen to that
-- how was that receive within their community and there government?
Gail Hochachka: Yes, this is a very good question. I just want to circle back to you were
saying about the first principle of respecting others. And what happens if you come up
against the situation of two different stories. And specifically around the third slide the
picture of the newspaper article posted on the wall. I think what we were confronting, and
this issue with many environmental and social issues around the planet is that certain
voices get heard and brought into the media and others dont. And thats a place of
possible disrespect of one persons story over anothers. And this example, of the news of
climate change in the news and the local people not have a chance to share their story or
voice on what climate change was to them. What we found just in terms of the first
principle when you invite somebody to share their own view, from their own perspective,
to tell their own story, in a way that is fairly sacred. If I tell you my story, thats not really
facts to be debated, that is a subjective experience to be shared.
So what was interesting was people felt very permitted in a way, very kind of the space
was very safe share really fully what was going on with them. That wasnt a space for
debate or analysis or examination, it was just simply sharing, in a very sacred way and
subjective experiences, sort of untouchable in a sense. And what we found across the 20
some odd people involved in the project and then in the wide field in terms of the larger
community. There didnt actually arise any disagreement on peoples stories. If anything,
what people found is they had shared stories. Someone sharing their view of how climate
change impacted them was very similar to their neighbour, but yet they hadnt talked to
them about it. They had not given voice to it before. It was actually quite a beautiful way
of addressing that first principle of forging deep respect. It is connected to the second
theme around deep listening and listening really fully to each other.
In terms of your question about how thats been now taken up in the local region. Its is a
little early to say. We definitely have both municipal governments on board enough to
honor it as a serious enough concern to give attention to it and to give political will toward
it. Where that will go is hard to say, but we have bent the ear of the local elected officials,
which is a really good start. Given that there had been no work done in this region, no
political work directed toward that up until this point. I would say that is good start.
Where it goes from here, I can quite say yet.
John Hawkes: That stuff you said right at the beginning about the sacredness of the site -
here is a place where someone can speak and the very act of speaking engenders in itself a
respect for the person. Seems to me, that is in a whole lot of ways the key. That it is not in
fact information, necessarily, that is the critical thing being exchanged, it is a sense of
identity, and the sense of the realness of the person as embodied in their story. When
people come to recognize that, it is as you say a beautiful moment.
David Faber: What connect for me in that is it becomes very authentic, it becomes real.
One of the questions, Gail, I was asking about the reaction within El Salvador - what about
Canadian communities as you shared this story with others, what has the reaction been?
Gail Hochachka: Oh yeah, that is a great question. There were four El Salvadorian that
came north and we visited a whole series of aboriginal communities on the west coast of
Canada in Claquout Sound. That was fascinating to see community to community; north
and south, that have historically not had their voice brought into the public discourse that
readily - like aboriginal communities in Canada and rural Capistrano community in Latin
America. There was an amazing connection and uptake in reception. One of the most
beautiful things was seeing those connections happen and a similar sharing of the
challenge regarding climate change. The difference is a lot of Canadian rural communities
are no longer as intimately connected to the landscape and to agrarian kinds of livelihoods
as they are in the South any more so the impacts of climate change in the North.
And in terms of the cities we visited we went to various universities in Victoria [British
Columbia, Canada] and Vancouver [British Columbia, Canada] and spoke with professors
and students and people from the public. I would say the impact was really quite good.
Again, probably for the reason that John was just saying, when somebody shares from
their own experience it becomes authentic and becomes far more real than any of the
statistics you can see about this particular issue of climate change. For that reason it hit
home. It pulled at peoples heart that a series of maps and statistics and percentages
probably would not have. In that sense, this form of storytelling engaging Canadians and
El Salvadorians on the story one big intention we had was to create this cross national and
trans-boundary type relationship to face a global issue like climate change. Beginning
with the heart and the authenticity of a personal story is a great way to do that.
David Faber: Well it again connects me back to being able to tell that story effectively and
being able to share that and people being able to go back to the three principles and
having that space where it becomes authentic and it becomes real and people internalize it
and associate it with whatever they are experiencing in their own personal lives. I
actually wonder, John in regards to your work in theater, how to do see theater in the
dynamics of the city? How does theater actually influence the design and dynamic of a
city?
John Hawkes: Well, I mean, absolutely I think there are least two ways, there are a
myriad of ways, and two of them - the design of public space in terms of building space in
which people are able to congregate in such a way that focus is possible. And interestingly
this may be completely conspiratorial and paranoid as I understand it, certainly in our city
and I guess in many other cities, contemporary public space have often been limited by
demand by commissioners of such designs so that large groups of people not be able to
congregate in the spaces that are being designed.
For example there is space in our city there is a new space called Federation Square which
was quite deliberately, I believe, designed in such a way that it would be impossible for
20,000 people to congregate in that space, because the powers that be did not what that to
happen. I guess what I am trying to say is there are a whole lot of theatrical ideas in terms
of how they might go about designing public space that allow for exchange of all sorts, and
that ought to be a guiding principle. So that is number one.
The other side of it is activists taking advantage of the spaces that are there. I mean
everything from flash dancing to well there are all sorts of flash phenomenon in all sorts of
mediums from dancing to singing all sorts. I think that idea of people seeing the space in
which they live for its potential as a place in which performance of some kind or other can
take place - whether it is the suburban train or bus, or the whether it be the street side is a
really interesting development that seems to happening all over the world. People are
beginning to discover the urban environment in which they live, have all sort of
performance potential we never in our minds of those who built those spaces. So I mean
that I guess I am trying to take it from two different perspectives, from one, the design
perspective and another, that I find more interesting really that people taking over those
spaces in creative and interesting ways.
David Faber: Maybe you can explain that further John, when you say people taking over
the space. I have examples in my head. But I would like to hear from you.
John Hawkes: Well there are all sorts -- the one Ive been interested in at the moment is
this-- yarn bombing -- where people are knitting I dont know what you call them, but
people are covering public space and public objects with knitting and croqueting, for
example. So that is one. Another is a singing group in Melbourne that specialize in
guerrilla interventions where it appear in a local railway station in rush hour and sing
songs about how important public transport is -- there are thousands of examples -- there
is some wonderful stuff on YouTube of orchestras and dance companies doing
unannounced performances in public spaces. When you look and see the response when
passersby find themselves as audience accidentally, they make you cry. Those moments
of collective creative activity in public that one comes across accidentally, can be the most
moving acts imaginable in whole lot of ways.
David Faber: I havent seen yarn bomb I am very curious now after hearing....
John Hawkes: Google yarn bomb you will find some extraordinary things.
David Faber: And take a look and see what has been done. Actually maybe going back to
Gail what is surfacing for me and there is question posted in dashboard, how to create the
condition to smell, touch, feel, hear the human system in the city, how do you create the
conditions that people will do this -- they are not afraid to whatever the case may be.
Gail Hochachka: I think it does come back to especially if you are working with
population whose voice who conventionally has not been invited as they were saying John,
in the margins, getting used to living in the margins, a sufficient enough space that is safe
and authentic, yeah particularly safe, to share is a big part of creating the conditions. Then
I would say in our work, it ended up being really fun for people they just really got into it,
in a really enjoyable way. So this next piece that I would say helped create the conditions.
And then when things started to pop and happen and the sharing of people stories - it
began to snowball, people started to get into it doing things on their own and
spontaneously trying new things and it reaches a certain point where the conditions
spontaneously enact themselves. I think with this particular population, we had to slowly
at first and build trust and create a really safe space where peoples stories werent going
to be abused, they werent going to be taken and used for purposes not what they thought
they would be used for, right. Once those conditions were laid down that beginning and
trust began to be built, and then it becomes fun when things went on its own.
I can imagine what John says about yarn bombing, there is enjoyable fun that doesnt
make it heavy it is something people want to jump on board to do.
John Hawkes: You are absolutely right Gail, I couldnt agree more. It seems to me fun is
the key, it has to be enjoyable. If it is a moral responsibility - it gets scary - fundamentally
pleasure is huge part of it. The other part of it is confidence, building confidence in people
who have a story to tell. Our approach to a large extent tells people they dont have a
story to tell. We need to rebuild the confidence that all of us have stories that are not only
important to us in terms of telling us who we are, but are important to everyone else as
well. That sharing is fundamental to the human experience. That is what being human is
about, sharing our story. The fundamental things about being on the earth are that we
share those stories. The fun thing is critical; it seems to me, absolutely critical.
David Faber: I am just writing some notes here as well. Being able to go out and have fun
in an experience whether it is community event, or whatever is going, or something that is
completely spontaneous. I dont know how many times I recall and be walking downtown
in any major city and someone saying something completely different and very
intentionally, and it grabs so much attention and you can see a joy for the most part with
what is happening with that, until someone phones the police or something happens.
What surfaces for me is how it just lightens everything when that happens. So you are
saying fun, and is there a way to design it. Are there something that can be designed in
order for these things to happen, or is it all spontaneous?
John Hawkes: It can be, design is critical, but I would have to say, I am hesitating because
fundamental it is an issue early childhood education. That Ive grown up being told over
and over again that I am not very important; yada yada yada. Fundamental changes to the
way educate - the way we think about education, the way we think about what the
experience of child can be seems to me to be the most profoundly important aspect of
whatever comes out of this. The way we bring up our children.
And that for me, I have a sense that sometime adults are a lost cause, I mean I know that is
not true, I tend to think that way sometime, oh my God really the only solution we have is
to make sure we dont lay the mistakes we made are not laid on the next generation. To try
to think about children can emerge out of childhood with a confidence in their own
capacity to tell their story in a public context ends up being probably the most important
thing we can do.
Gail Hochachka: I was just sort of wanting to contribute to that answer, as I have been
pointing to telling my story, we found it really important to begin with the personal. I like
what Johns saying around that begins with how we educate and grow up ourselves or
how we educate our young ones. But even in this very moment, just to allowing someone
to feel the empowerment of connecting with their own personal story and their own
personal view. We found that to be really key, because that then gave the folks involved in
our project enough literally empowerment to step forward and share it in a community
setting. And that then started to build the social capital that we were hoping to build in
order to get to adaptation planning later down the road. I would just say that is another
key aspect about designing the conditions for this is to include that really personal,
experiential piece to enable the quality of empowerment that can be woven into a larger
social story or message.
John Hawkes: I think also there is another; there is an issue that has to do with Marilyns
[Hamilton] second point, the listening issue. It seems to me that, another critical
educational area is the re-training of public official to learn to be able to listen to their
communities in such a way that communities recognize that they actually have been
listened to. There is an enormous amount of the communications between public
officialdom and the communities those officials are meant to serve is not to do with
listening at all. It is a sort of, I dont know, a pretense of listening. I think our public
officials need to be retrained to what listening really means and ways of effectively
listening because listening ultimately is in fact a dialogical activity. The way to
demonstrate that you have really been listening is that you respond to that which you
have heard in a way that demonstrates that you have understood and received your
listening so to speak. I think in terms of a design process one of the re-designs that needs
to take place is on the bureaucracies that serves communities in terms of their capacity to
listen.
David Faber: That is for me, it totally personally connects with me with something I am
directly involved with in my community. And if you are not being listened to, we held the
community barbecue, a protest walk and barbecue for development that is going on in
our parks that we want have a voice and we want to heard. And the community is not
being heard. We had an 8-year-old girl write a letter to her member parliament her
member of her legislature assembly her mayor and city counselor. That letter was
beautiful. She told her story. It was what the experience was like in the park, that it was a
lung of fresh air, the feeling of the feet in sand when she walked in the grass when it was
wet and it dried. And what it meant to play with her three-year-old brother and her one-
year-old brother in the park. The response back was a form letter that went into a whole
bunch of legalese. There was an amazing opportunity to connect with this person who
knows what the impact is going to be on her personally. And she wasnt being listened to.
It just so struck a chord with me around this listening, and how important it is to listen.
And so with that, I wanted to perhaps just highlight two other stories I was aware of one
was a campaign, for Gail, the campaign around the environmental sustainability here in
Edmonton. We had local group bring a number of children down to City Hall, and right in
front there is we have large open square, its a large concrete area - and they all brought
chalk and all these kids there, 60 or 70 kids, spent an hour and they were drawing images
of what the images of what the environment was to them in chalk all over the square
where 100 to 1,000s of people walked back and forth. And it was so amazing to walk -- to
be part of that and just see what was happening and for people to look over and group
around these children and wondering why are these kids writing with chalk on this road
in this area but to look at them while they looked at the images and connecting with those
images back to how taking photos for yourself, how that helped. I just thought I would
share those two stories as a way of connecting as well.
Gail Hochachka: Fantastic stories, thanks for sharing that one. That is great.
David Faber: So are there areas that you both see - we have talking about the two
principles of respecting and listening around the third principle of enabling others to
speak theirs. How can that be encouraged for other people to share their stories.
Gail Hochachka: Yeah thats a good one. I dont know what to say about that. What comes
to mind is that we have the most extraordinary ways to alternative media sources, social
media sources to tell our stories and encourage others to tell them. I feel like the system is
present, it is just a matter of using them and encouraging each other to use them. As I was
saying the voices that dont often get heard as much as other voices. Kind of shifting the
narrative we been given and the social conditioning we have been given in the modern
consumerist world -- to be a certain way and to tell a certain story. I think all of that can
be very much questioned. There are ample ways in which to tell our stories.
As I was presenting today on the story of El Salvador and these peoples insights and
viewpoints about climate change and where they had gone with it. I started to realize in a
way we havent used the current social media and alternative media sources to tell that
story. We havent created its own website to share these, right which I think it would be
quite a nice asset. It would encourage other try the same methodology, maybe urban
communities as well, to see what they can find.
John Hawkes: Well, one of the groups I used to work with was a community singing
organization that trained a lot of locally based singing leaders, to run singing sessions in
their communities. That began with using a sort of set vocabulary of hundreds of very
simple songs, but one of the key things that emerged very quickly once we got the
program going was song writing programs. That we realized that again everyone has a
song in them. And exactly the same thing would happen where participates would say, but
how can I write a song - Ive got nothing to sing about. And given there are so many songs
in existence already why would one bother to create a new one anyway. The process of
encouraging people to develop their own songs proved to enormously fruitful. That in a
whole lot of ways the most profoundly life changing effects occurred people actually
realized they had the capacity to make their own song and that everyone does. I guess it is
the democratizing of creativity-- the confidence building in terms of ordinary people --
that they have within them the capacity to create their own authentic expressions is
hugely important and something for which there are practical processes available.
David Faber: I love the terms you just used the democratizing of creativity. That
everyone can be creative in whichever they can be or want to be. I wonder if you can
expand on that a little bit further, John and explain a little more about creativity and how
that can connect it back to city design and how that can impact city design.
John Hawkes: (laughing) Oh thats a difficult one. Well I mean in sense I would say it is
about program design rather than physical design. It seems to me the critical thing that a
local authority can do is to put its community in touch with practitioners who have the
capacity to facilitate the emergence of creativity within those the communities.
Now most artistic programs run by governments have to do with the support and nurture
artists with a capital A or those people who are identified as emerging artists and very
little focus and investment goes into developing, in a sense, grass roots creativity. And it
seems to me that is back to front. That if governments were to recognize their
fundamental role is in a sense fertilizing the soil - then out that soil will probably grow
fabulous individual talents. But it is in that grass roots fertilization that government can
be most effective, it seems to me, rather than looking after the tall poppies. Id be arguing
for a fundamental reversal of, capsizing so to speak, of the way governments tend to think
how they might support artistic activity in their communities. And rather than
concentrating on the talented professionals they should thinking more and more about
how they can put the talented professionals to work to facilitate the emergence of
everyone else's creativity rather than simply being able to display their own. I think it is
such a fundamental turn around that I cant imagine it happening, but I will continue to
argue it is the most important thing that could be done.
David Faber: Well it definitely struck a chord with me. It almost where you see the
interactive art where people can add or build on to something that is already there, and
support that. It is not looked at as a negative or its a way, as you said that emergence, to
harness the emergence of the creativity that individuals have.
While are on this theme there was a question that came in awhile ago. It was on literature
and how literature impacts city design and the classic or the pop culture that is around
that within a city. Can either of you speak to that?
John Hawkes: Melbourne, the town I am speaking from has just via a local government
initiative had itself identified as a City of Literature and there is a literature center. And I
dont know if I fully understand what all that is all about, however what it has done
profoundly changed the function of the main city library. It is now a focus, just as much,
for discussion groups around books as much as it is a repository of those books. But there
is now a huge, I think as a result of this, a huge sort of movement of groups of people
coming together to talk about literature. Now whether this includes writing workshops
and so on, I am not sure but certainly but in itself the rise of the book club phenomenon
seems to me to be very interesting. Although the book may be an excuse for a bunch a
people to sit around and chat, which is fundamentally what the content is all about --
rather than actual content. But it does seem to me, the book is, this is a very personal
thing, but my daughter is now in her early twenties is busily reading through the books
that I identified that I thought made me. And currently she is reading Doris Lessings, The
Golden Notebook. I guess, in that sense of people discovering the books that created the
mindset of a generation is a really an exciting thing to do. I find myself doing it terms of,
going back and looking at the literature that inspired the French Revolution or the
American War of Independence. I think, in books there are always enormously wonderful
and interesting things that can change ones life. I am rambling on a bit, I guess other than
to say, the slow transformation of libraries from repositories to centers of debate is an
enormously encouraging phenomenon.
David Faber: Gail, do you have anything to add to that?
Gail Hochachka: I do, not specifically on literature but, basically the work we do, I work
in the developing south - often the communities we are in they are not literate so I cant
speak to literature. However, we are in the business of social change that is what we are
doing. The ways society changes - understanding integral theory at least - is through this
social discourse. That is the interesting thing about that media, that newspaper article
posted on the wall in the slideshow, these ideas and concepts and global issues they enter
our social discourse and the press on us and influence us. The question is how can also
contribute to that type of discourse through these sorts of concepts and design ideas and
sustainability ideas. And that is really what we do. If I were to, I never tell that to funders, I
use more development speak, in effect we are contributing to and large seeding a new
social discourse in the places where we work with the local practitioners and participants
we work with. And I think that that can be literature as one form, it can be photo voice,
storytelling, it can be writing your letter to the local government like you were saying the
young girl writing a letter to her elected officials. Its getting the word out and
contributing in ways the social discourse we swim in, that constitutes our collective space.
I am up for any creativity about how to do that because it is something I think, any of us
who are interested in the collective evolutionary processes today -- if we are invested in
that -- then we are invested in social change, and we are invested in social discourse and
changes in social discourse.
I get hearted to think that even as recently as my childhood, I pushing 40 now, in my late
30s, even in my childhood the word sustainability was never used. That has emerged in
less than half of my lifetime, 15 years, or less. So it is just really inspiring to think that a
word like sustainability can enter our social discourse and influence it to such an extent
that we are designing our urban environment and spaces differently, right. So anyway I
dont have anything specifically on literature, but I do think whoever asks the question is
honing in something really critical and that is social discourse.
David Faber: Thank you so much, Gail for that. In terms of timing, I am wondering if Eric
can join us into this conversation and share a bit of his observations of our dialogue over
the last hour and twenty minutes.
Eric Troth: Yes, thank you. This is very rich dialogue and this is fun. I am enjoying myself
and hearing in what is coming up in this dialogue. And I also want to just weave this
together with our sessions in our conference and thinking about what Jean Houston was
bringing forward this morning for instance and her ideas about the story telling process.
And this is session about designers so I want to be really self conscious about how we
design on multiple levels of scale and also to multiple dimension of time. And how do we
invite in something that we are intentional, consciously, generative of new kinds of stories
that are transformative at deep level. You know stories naturally arise, we are all telling
stories all the time and a lot of times it is not a very self conscious process. Yet we can
take a step a back and take a perspective on our perspective, if you will.
Jean was talking about this morning, for instance, the different kinds of cultures that we
are embedded in. That there is a subculture that is very localized that people we gather
with around the park, I love that story David around the young girl and what the park
means to her and the story ins nested in wider context of our secondary culture that we
live in, for instance, in a particular nation or region of the world. That is turn nested in the
wider context of being a global citizen. And we have story there too and what modern
science is bringing in now, as we have this sense of long deep time evolutionary journey of
the cosmos unfolding; of biological evolution and cultural evolution and so there is a meta
context of being a kosmic - capital K Kosmos that Ken Wilber refers to, that we are also
in that context as well. We drop into a very different space.
I am just curious to come back to this notion of how do we self consciously design across
all of these different scales of time and space, to be really of generative as possible to the
transformational types of changes that are needed at this time in history as we face
problems on a scale that we havent faced before. I think I will just leave it at that if you
would like to respond.
John Hawkes: Boy, in a sense of how do we design sounds a little like- how do we play
God. I guess I always - where does it come from the thing about act globally, think
universally or act locally think universally. It seems to me in the end it is the little things
that we do that count the most. Like with our singing program -- we ended up realizing
that what we were doing was building confidence in perhaps over a two year period- 700
people. And that confidence that we were able to build in those people allowed them to in
a shorthand way to act authentically within their communities and we would be confident
there would be some ripple effect in that. I guess what I am trying to say, in terms of
design initiative that, in a sense, it all comes back to the person. It is the impact one can
have on specific individuals that is the most important thing. That as I get older the grand
design seem less and less important because humans have the capacity to basically to
wade in and find their way through whatever environments they are in-- provided they
have the confidence to be able do so, and belief they can do so and in building that is the
critical area.
Gail Hochachka: Yeah, Eric. I would like to speak to what you said; I particularly liked
how you were saying speaking at the Kosmos centric type level. How do we design with
that in our consciousness in our minds eye? And I think in a way what you are saying John,
sort of gives us a sense of playing God. I know what you mean, so I think for me, so
speaking really personally, my actual process around designing these sorts of community
building, culture building types of projects, is that when I start a design process I start at
the highest deepest place in my own consciousness and let that cascade down, cascade
down, cascade down and then it will crystallize somewhere and it usually crystallizes
somewhere which is most actionable in this moment in time. I hope I am talking in a way
that is easy to follow; I dont usually describe these types of things. But what I find that
where it ends up crystallizing that is where it is actionable that is where in a way I show
up. Because it began at deeper and in away a higher level in my consciousness or my
awareness it still contains that even though it is manifesting on a here and now type level.
John Hawkes: Think universally act specifically.
Gail Hochachka: hmmmm
John Hawkes: I mean in the end, I like that line in the culture intelligence thing about
culture being the lived values in a community. I am very suspicious about the idea of
values, about what people claim their values might be. Its the lived values and the
behavior that is the critical issue. Not our rational for why we behave in particular way,
but what our actual behavior is, our lived values. In the sense what I am trying to get at it
all comes down to living and what actually do that counts. In that sense I guess what I am
getting at is - that it is changes in behavior that are the most important things. Now, one
could argue those change in behavior might occur as a result of changes in mental
perspective, but even so it the behavior itself that is critical thing.
Eric Troth: Just as a time note, we are coming to the end of our time together, it has been
very rich, David if you have any final words, I will come back with a close in a moment.
David Faber: Yes just very quickly, there was comment posted on the participant
dashboard from Diane, her last sentence is: perhaps leaving space, is like what John is
saying, a little thing that needs to is done instead of filling the air with her already
knowing. I thought that was quite profound.
Eric Troth: Yeah, yeah. So thank you very much Gail and John and David its been a
wonderful time together.

1
What and where are we implementing cultural/storytelling
intelligence?
Speakers: Milenko Matanovic, Ann Duffy, Carl Anthony and Paloma Pavel
September 12, 2012
Milenko Matanovic a self-described recovering artist who founded
Pomegranate Center in 1986. Connecting art with community building and
everyday life is just one of the ways Milenko uses his creativity to prepare
communities for the future. By combining his talents as a thinker, educator
and artist, Milenko hopes to create a world where neither nature nor
human talents are wasted. He lives to help communities become wiser by
working together to find new and creative ways to push good ideas into
action. He has been honored with the Home Shelter Award, the Legacy Leadership Award
from the Center for Ethical Leadership and an honorary professorship at the University of
Vladivostok, Russia. Milenko is excited about teaching and speaking about Pomegranate
Centers unique community building model so that more people can collaborate better and
be inspired to take action.
Ann Duffy is an international advisor on sustainability strategies and
solutions for corporations, mega-event organizers and host cities. She
creates performance-based programs that integrate environmental,
economic and social priorities and plans for legacies. She was the architect
and media spokesperson of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic
Winter Games Committee (VANOCs) corporate-wide Sustainability
Management and Reporting System an Olympic Games first. She lead VANOC to
successfully implement environmental, social and economic bid commitments with
corporate sponsors, government partners, NGOs, Games workforce and suppliers. Her
teams created Canadas first sustainable event management standard (CSA Z2010) and
she contributed to the development of the GRI Event Organizers Sector Supplement on
Sustainable Event Reporting, Ann advises sport event organizers like the IOC, Sochi 2014,
Toronto 2015, and a 2020 Summer Olympic Bid City, corporate CSR clients, cities like
Whistler and organizations like World Wide Fund for Nature.

Carl Anthony is Ford Foundation Senior Fellow and Visiting Scholar at the
Department of Geography at University of California, Berkeley. He is
Founder of the Earth House Leadership Center in Oakland California. Prior
to his present role he was acting director of the Ford Foundations
Community and Resource Development Unit, where he directed the
foundations Sustainable Metropolitan Communities Initiative and the
Regional Equity Demonstration Initiative. He founded, and for twelve years,
was executive director of the Urban Habitat program of Oakland, California,
promoting multicultural urban environmental leadership for sustainable, socially just
communities in San Francisco Bay Area.
Paloma Pavel, founder and president of Earth House, served as director of
strategic communications for the Sustainable Metropolitan Communities
Initiative at the Ford Foundation. An international consultant, educator,
researcher, and media activist, her areas of specialization include urban
sustainability, living systems, strategic communications, strategic planning,
and leadership development. Paloma has produced several multimedia
projects on the theme of regional equity and serves as co-editor of
Sustainable Metropolitan Communities Books (SCMP) at the MIT Press.
===
Marilyn Hamilton: I want to start by giving you all a question for us to understand how
story telling intelligence is emerging in your work. Ann, could you tell us how your work
with the Olympics is actually implementing cultural or storytelling intelligence and how
have you combined that with the whole inclusion of sustainability in your approach to the
Olympic events.
Ann Duffy: All for the opportunity to share something that I think we are going to see
more of and Im going to begin with kind of setting the stage around the power of sport
and shared citizenship to create environmental, economic, and social benefits in our urban
environment. As Marilyn mentioned, I had the privilege of working for five years with the
Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympics committee. Ive since shared my experience
with the London 2012 Olympic and a Paralympic Games, which has just finished its been a
roaring success. Ive also helped Sochi 2014 in Russia, to help them cultivate a framework
that can generate benefits beyond sport for urban sustainability. Then back in Canada
again for the Toronto Pan-American ParaPan games for 2015 and most recently Istanbul a
bid city for the 2020 summer games.
Cities are waking up for the vast potential of leveraging sport as a catalyst and as a
mechanism for engaging what sometimes seems as strange bedfellows on this
inspirational journey of hosting a fantastic sport event. But that ends up generating new
relationships and new benefits that really contribute to long term urban sustainability.
To begin Id like to just emphasize that if we think about it for a minute that whether we
kids that played baseball or skied or did track and field or played hockey or volleyball or
cricket. That we have some sort of affinity for understanding how sport connects and
inspires us to be our best and to strive for goals and to make a positive difference not only
in our life but in our community and potentially our region and country. Its that kind of
passionate magic that really helps us to attract and innovate in ways that we might not
traditionally in government, urban, sustainability planning or business corporate social
responsibility delivery.
When we talk about sustainable sport events, thanks to the work of many, and Ive been
lucky to be a part of it. We can now identify, that sustainable events, whether theyre
business meetings and conventions or mega sport events or cultural concerts and festivals,
is that we can provide a platform where an event is able to provide an accessible and an
inclusive setting for all. So that people with physical disabilities or socially
disenfranchised might have an opportunity to contribute and participate in the event. We
also provide a safe and secure atmosphere where our own personal safety and the value of
our assets, the buildings and facilities involved in the event are protected. We really need
to think about how can we minimize the negative effects on the environment and how can
we create social or positive effects both in terms of ourselves but also in society? Also how
can we think about responsible sourcing how can we think about the purchasing power
these mega events have in terms of influencing our supply chain with products and
services that businesses near and far can participate in? We have to remember we are still
focused on excellent event experiences for our customers, our clients, our fans. How we
assure that?
The last two things are really focusing on how can we use the platform of this event,
where were inspired engaged in interesting topics or inspiring sport or extraordinary
music and culture in a way that we can think about our own sustainable behaviour, and, to
potentially think of how the event can make a long-term contribution or a positive legacy
to a region. What Ive just listed here are some of the core bid commitments, that certainly
previous before Vancouver thought about, but that Vancouver 2010 put on the ledger as
our report card as our performance objectives for the games and we didnt do this alone.
We had the hands of many to help us. London 2012 Sochi 2014 Rio 2016 and future
Olympic Games are taking this on as well in a way that is relevant in the host regions.
The challenge is to find a way to have these lofty goals come into action or become
possible and practical and applicable and really part of what I want to share with you
today is that. We might have a checklist, we might have a frame work, we might have a
some sort of strategy that we can envision how this might possibly happen, but it really
starts with have conversations with those who are directly and indirectly effected and are
interested by the event or the project. And thats really been at the core of how these
recent games whether it is Vancouver and now London it is certainly celebrating
extraordinary success as well.
I can break down my final remarks in a few ways. Id like to feature if we think about sport
as we mentioned as a place where we learned maybe as a young child or a youth or an
adult a place where we can learn teamwork we can develop physical skills and prowess
around the possibilities of our bodies in strength and movement. We can explore
leadership, whether were a team captain or support if were a team player. As a group we
learn to win and lose, we learn to set goals, we learn about giving it our all on the field of
play. And together this provides entertainment and inspiration and pride for our fans our
sponsors our families, our community who support us. Certainly in the case of Vancouver
2010 and were going to see lots of this again in London and Sochi and the others. An
example of that was really remarkable that I just want to use as a little example, would be
that of encouraging our First Nations Canadians to consider amateur sport as a way to
engage in sport and healthy living. We developed an amateur program for youth from
First Nations communities that happen to make up five per cent of Canadas population.
And by starting at home in British Columbia we had a First Nations snowboard team that
was learning the technique and competition of sport and committed to doing their best to
maintain a C+ average in school, no substances abuse of drugs and alcohol and signing up
for team training. This model has been such an important and successful force in use
leadership and development. It has now been a program that is radiating across the
country in our sport organizations nationally.
The second facet of how the power of sport can be a platform or a conduit for urban
sustainability and positive change toward the environment in which we live work play
and learn, has been how sport can prove to become a platform to communicate shared
and lofty goals. And if we think about whos involved in hosting and convening the sports.
Its the host city, the event owner whether its the Olympic games or the FIFA world cup
for soccer, or Commonwealth Games, or the Stanley Cup for hockey, or the world cup
championships for other sports. The sports can become a platform by which these
necessary organizations that are involved in helping to deliver the games not only commit
and are excited about hosting valuable and extraordinary excellent events but also do it in
a way where they are being thoughtful around their environmental impacts, their social
impacts, and their economic benefits.
Interestingly and not surprisingly were seeing sponsors and companies in sports and
governments are seeing how their policy agenda or their corporate social responsibility
agenda can align with this. Many examples are becoming quite prolific recently and Ill just
share a couple of examples now. One would be that for the Vancouver 2010 games and
indeed for the London and Sochi games the interest around hosting games that are
thoughtful around our climate change impacts are becoming really prescient. In
Vancouver we had the sweet alignment of the leadership of the organizing committee, the
Mayor of Vancouver, the Mayor of Whistler, the Premier of British Columbia, the
citizenship of the region to really think about how we could host carbon responsible
games. There was a strategic focus on the types of energy we used, how we used it, and
how we offset our emission in a way that would create regional social economic
environmental benefits. There was a lot of math involved, there was a lot of logistics
involved behind the scenes. But because this was a mantel that would be expressed and
profiled and celebrated at game time, we had an extraordinary level of participation by
our government partners which included local government, the province, the federal
government, the provincial governments from across the country to participate in this
goal of hosting carbon responsible games. The innovations that came from that are lasting.
Another example would be on the social side where we focused on social inclusion, human
rights, and ethical sourcing. We created a sourcing program where we needed to buy
products and services because were only here for a short time. We were thoughtful
around how we could source these materials in a way that would represent our values. It
wasnt a perfect science, but it was something that garnered participation in an increasing
fashion over time. An example would be that Birks and Myer, Birks the jewelry store that
made the wonderful gifts of jewelry with our logo, adopted lock stock and barrel our
ethical sourcing program not only for the materials and merchandise that it made for our
games but in perpetuity for its operations in North America. We created a platform where
we profiled this. We celebrated this, after the long hard work behind the scenes to bring
our sponsors onboard in this way.
Marilyn Hamilton: Ann if I might just interject with you, who know that creating cultural
intelligence in something like sporting events involved a lot of work and work in
regarding numbers and calculations and creating data. The examples that youre giving
about how youre actually involving the whole supply chain. Sounds to me like youre not
only changing the story of the city but youre changing the story of the people who
participated in contributed to the whole event, would that be accurate?
Ann Duffy: Absolutely and thanks Marilyn. I want to measure my remarks because I want
to make sure this is resonating with all of you who are tuning into this conversation. I
think that if I can just step back for a minute. If we think about who are we speaking to and
who do we want to engage within our city 2.0 its not just city and local governments its
not just residents, its the businesses and suppliers that provide products and services that
we need to live healthy and robust and energetic lives but also where we can be
productive with the products and services that we need. Particularly in the events sector,
the role of sourcing is a really powerful lever that can set an example and help drive high
suitability performance in the city.
Ill just close quickly here with, I just want to set the table around how we established an
early conversation with these stakeholders whether it was First Nations, or regulators, or
athletes, or civil society, or environmental organizations, or businesses and suppliers, that
this was not just about the few weeks of the Olympics and Paralympics games, this was
about using our collective resources, intelligence and good will to create lasting legacies
that would really benefit for a generation in our region and host country. In order to do
that, we had to create a forum where our governance, and our decision-making and our
listening involved ongoing engagement. And I think that was the greatest joy for so many
of us was that by creating forums where these conversations could be heard and we could
respond to sometimes we could take on those recommendations and sometimes we
couldnt. But the ideas and the collaboration were much farther and much vaster than
anything we could initially imagine. When we think about that, one can realize the
absolute potent power of what I would call social capitalism or the social capital of the
innovation and resources of our stakeholders to really drive change. And because we were
inspired by the magnificent possibilities of this event, it really raised everybodys game in
terms of thinking about how this could be more than maybe something we initially
imagined.
Thank you.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you for giving us the background to this really powerful story
that I was attracted to and invited you to share here around the impact around the
sporting events and the ripple effects they have throughout the community. I like the idea
of thinking about it as a legacy and Im going to use this as a segue to invite Milenko into
the conversation and tell us his story about how working in community in the area close
to Seattle, Washington, USA where Milenko is located. How have you actually gone about
creating cultural or social capital to inviting the community into creating something
together? Would you like to tell us how youre actually doing that and in the process
developing this storytelling intelligence?
Milenko Matanovic Great, thank you Ann and thank you Marilyn. I will start by saying
that the city - the physical structure of our cities is a story in itself. I come from a central
European city and was born in Ljubljana, Slovenia. And that city which was developed and
imagined prior to cars tells a very different story than Seattle where I live now.
For one thing the density is much higher and I think when cities functioned in the past
when they are self reliant, if they sprawled too much, hunger would be the consequence
because people would get rid of the land which is most fertile that surrounds the city. So
there was this dance between the land, the surrounding environment and the physical
structure of the city that played itself out, and if that balance was broken people suffered.
So in Seattle that story is very different. We have sprawl, we can afford it, and we can
afford it because we are not reliant on the food being produced locally. So, we fly it in or
ship it in from faraway places. Only a tiny percentage of the food consumed here is
produced here.
So our starting point for the nonprofit I work with is that the physical shape of our cities
influences our social behaviour and our identity beyond what we recognize that there is
this huge impact on that. And our organization focuses on two areas of that equation
tiny little niches one is that we help communities create gathering places, which are kind
of our attempt to reinvent the idea of the commons. Studying art history and urban
planning throughout other ages one would quickly realize at the center of every village, of
every town every city there is this space that is a community space. And private and
corporate and government functions dance around that space.
The physical environment without a gathering place is what we have now in most of
suburbia. There is no central organizing space around which our collective lives unfold
and the prime properties are now sold off to the highest bidder.
So the story about modern cities is very much about the story of distances, of zoning, of
separation of functions which in Ljubljana where I grew up, kind of bumped into each
other where you worked and where you lived and when you played and where you
shopped are all kind of the same neighbor hood. And we are now trying to reinvent that.
So for Pomegranate Center we are trying to reinvent it by creating gathering places and I
shall tell you in a moment about how we do that. But we are also training people how to
engage with each other in a productive fashion. We want people to be at their best when
they consider the future of their cities.
So our work is really two fold in doing then one is how do we engage each other so we
can be at our best at our most creative together and that is urgent these days especially
in the United States when often we are at our worst with each other . And our public
discourse is filled with anger and accusations and blame and that plays itself in national
politics and national campaigns right now, and all small campaigns on the local level.
We try to change that by creating a code of collaboration for people as they engage with
each other. That code is simple mostly but also very demanding. Simple in that we ask
people to be civil, to listen to each other, so that they can uncover ideas, rather than fight
for their pre-existing ideas. Some demanding things that we ask them to do is: are you
willing to change your mind in view of new information for example? Are you willing to
take your nos and turn them into something more productive?
So we do ask people not to blame, not to accuse and not to say no, only as a way in
shaping their conversations. And we have been very successful over the years in creating
processes that allow people to come up to the essence of a decision very quickly and to
use each others differences as contributing assets to find that decision rather than as
obstacles which is often the case.
And then, when we create gathering places we take that conversation further by inviting
the community to design and build gathering place with us.
So I will give you an example of our most recent project which was in Tuscaloosa, Alabama,
in a neighborhood called Alberta. So the name of the project is called Alberta Gathering
Place. Tuscaloosa experienced a devastating tornado last year, in April of 2011 that carved
a path of five miles long and a mile wide through portions of the city. And we worked with
the community and local government to create an early success around the idea of
rebuilding something because until recently people in Tuscaloosa were simply removing
debris left over from the devastation.
And we created a project that would reverse that energy and started to create something
positive again to give people more hope, and a sense of optimism for their future. And so
we met with the community in January, asking the community for their ideas. Our golden
rule is that under the right conditions, which are fostered by our code of collaboration
people are actually very very smart. They know what needs to happen and they have a
strong vision for the future that unites them. And so our golden rule is community must be
in charge of the vision. We will help them realize that vision with our artistic skills and our
construction skills. And so we heard from the community what they needed and then we
had several months of finalizing designs, getting permits, buying material and then in 10
days in June the first 10 days in June we built it with the help of some 450 volunteers
who gave over 3,000 hours of their time to build this community space. Our model is to
create ownership for physical aspects of our communities, to create pride in the local
character of the community, to use local materials. Just as Ann was saying, every aspect of
the project how we eat, how we purchase materials, and how we relate to communities
throughout the process reflects this idea of partnership and collaboration.
So that in a nutshell is what we do. So my closing thought is simply this. The storytelling of
who we are is in great part influenced by the shapes that surround us, the streets, and the
parks and the buildings and open spaces of our cities. Its easy to have parallel stories that
are more mythical, but the fact is that the physical environment itself often tells us more
powerfully who we are then what the mythic tales alone can tell us.
I will leave it with that and I hope that this contributes to an ongoing conversation about
this important topic.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you so much Milenko. I really love the idea that you are not
only working in the city that I first learned about your work in Seattle and environs but
also in a place like the Alberta project. And of course, being a Canadian, the Alberta name
would have a special resonance with me but I wonder if you might describe a little more
what their vision was? Had you worked with the community long enough that they have
emerged a vision and how is it being translated into some kind of an expression of their
vision? As that, I know is what you tend to do with the groups you work with.
Milenko Matanovic: In some ways, our approach is to take a tiny little project and align it
with big thinking. Im an artist and as you mentioned Ive become a recovering artist but
I still use artistic practices in my community work and as such I believe that small things
have great power when done right. So a poem can have a great power but it is just a piece
of paper and a piece of music can have power its that kind of an idea. So when we work
with communities we work with a small portion of their physical environment. In the
instance of Alberta neighborhood in Tuscaloosa it was a space of about 200 feet by 200
feet within an existing park which was partly devastated by the tornado. And when we
asked the community what they want, it was hugely simple things. They want safety for
children, they want beauty, they want something that represents their history and their
pride and there character. Something, in other words that is unique to them rather than
prefabricated from a catalog and flown in from some other place. They want to have some
character expressed that is identified with caring. They want to be involved.
And so when we actually realized this project those played them out. In Alberta
specifically what they wanted was a gathering place where churches could have outdoor
services, where a local high school jazz band can practice, where weddings could happen.
They wanted to have a place for community rituals basically. And thats what we gave
them. We used the debris from the tornado. We used trees that fell down, we used metal
that was recycled into I-Beams, and we used concrete pads from the buildings - the
footings of the buildings that disappeared during the tornado. And we turned all of that
into a small amphitheatre that is covered with shade cloth because the community
wanted that where the community wanted to conduct those events.
And so in our model, then, we listen to their vision, we align a small project with long-term
goals and hopes that they articulate but then we do something relatively small and
relatively quickly. In our instance this was built in 10 days. So that is kind of the essence of
our method and now we are taking this work to other cities and create pilot projects that
train other people how to do this work.
Marilyn Hamilton - I know when I first met you, Milenko, I was really struck about the
sort of time container of the projects that you work that even though they may small
you engage people (if I remember?) for six months. Now this one was very focused for 10
days, but in fact it probably took you a lot longer to work through the vision and then
come up with this. I am curious did you also engage the community in actually executing it
and actually creating the amphitheater?
Milenko Matanovic: Yes, absolutely. That is part of the model. So it starts with asking the
community at a community meeting, what do you want, what do you need, what do you
see, what do you desire? We listen to those ideas. With their help we create the design.
Then we need to organize everything for implementation and then people are invited to
work with us. And they did in Tuscaloosa as I mentioned. There were over 400 different
individuals worked with us during those 10 days.
Marilyn Hamilton: Wow. So the community ownership comes not only from the vision
you help them to express but actually engaging in work together through, I imagine, using
the principle of civility you shared with us.
Milenko Matanovic: Yes, absolutely. So our goal is to create a project where many people
would claim it as their own either because they had an idea or they prepared a meal for
the volunteers or they actually worked with us in some cases very hard labour, but in
some cases very artistic work.
And so, coming back to Anns discussion about sports, I think Pomegranate Center is kind
of a decathlete type of an athlete, because we need to do lots of different things well.
Probably there are people who sprint faster and jump higher and throw things further
than we do in a single discipline, but our specialty is to synthesize community engagement,
participatory democracy, art and design, management that is sustainable, use of
sustainable materials - and then, kind of a barn raising methodology of engagement
community.
And because we touched so many different levels of participation, we are very successful
in attracting volunteers to work with us. We are learning for example, there are some
people who like to talk about big ideas and they tend to come to the first meetings. But
there is an entirely different group who come to the building. And they are the kind of
people who say, call me when you are ready to do something with your ideas. And they
show up for an extraordinary deposit of care and hard work and it always takes our
breath away to see how much energy there is in an ordinary community everywhere that
can burst forth under the right conditions. And that is what we are trying to do we are
trying to create those right conditions and we think that talking is the beginning of a long
journey, but sooner or later ought to end in an action. I our case that is action gathering
places, but in other places could be something else. But that is part of our model that we
take a process from beginning to end and work with a community usually on the journey
that usually, as you pointed out, lasts about half a year from the beginning to the end.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well thank you Milenko, for giving us that colourful, and I can
imagine just wanting to go to Alberta and experiencing that gathering place and feel the
energy that you were able to attract there.
I want to now call into the conversation Carl and Paloma. You have been working in a very
different way than either large Olympic sporting events or in the gathering places through
Breakthrough Communities.
I want to invite you to tell the story of how your work with low income communities,
communities of colour, in again, relationship to each of you as champions of sustainability
and how each of you talks about sustainability that engages not only the environment, but
also the social aspects and the economic aspects and the cultural aspects of community?
Earlier today heard from Jon Hawkes, from Australia, who is responsible for putting
culture as one of the four pillars into the sustainability framework. I think Paloma and
Carl, if could invite you to come in and tell us how story telling comes out in your work
with Breakthrough Communities?
Carl Anthony: Maybe I could begin. And I thank you so much for inviting us to participate
in this wonderful conversation and as I was listening to both Ann and Milenko, the things
that came up for me in my own experience of stories and it is such a wonderful
framework for thinking about our work and also what we do with communities we have
been working with, for the last decade - but even more than that over the last 20 or 30
years.
We have an organization called Breakthrough Communities and it is also documented in
the book that Dr. Pavel edited called Sustainability and Justice in the Next American
Metropolis. I think I will start by saying, the over arching story the two stories we are
talking about today are stories that relate to sustainability and part of sustainability is
fairness and justice. And so we have a big transformation thats happening in American
society. There is a big demographic change that is happening. Some of you may know or
if you think about it the statistics have told us in the last census, that by 2042, a majority
of people in the United States of America will be people of colour. So there is a big story
about demographics happening here. And as we look at it and I was so pleased in your
book, Marilyn when you really give us that the timeframe because when we look back
over not only the last 10,000 years but over the last 200,000 years you see this
timeframe has been a story of a homecoming of people who have traveled all over the
planet who are now coming together in the United States.
So I want to pick one story we have a dozen in the book and Paloma will pick up on a
couple of other themes but I want to just pick up one story, that we are very excited about
among the many and its a movement in the United States called Farm to Schools. This is
a remarkable movement. Its where the small family farmers are actually providing food to
children. And what is so remarkable about this story as we think about it, its not only the
story of food as we think about food over the last few generations, or even going back
much farther, its also the story of agriculture sort of reinvented agriculture in the
modern world and we are about to reinvented again. Its also the story of the city the
suburbs and its a story about the challenge of sprawl and converting that into
something else. Its also the story of schools.
So we have the whole issue of how we teach the next generation to become part of our
society and how we can do that in ways that move us closer to sustainability. And its a
story of race and a story of poverty in the United States. And as we think about this, we
also have a story of African Americans who have a story that goes back to their history in
Africa and also their engagement with native communities and European communities
and then we have a large Latino population which is growing faster almost than any other
group in the country.
And this story which Im going to tell you is pretty simple is also the story of health and
healthy food.
So basically the outline of the story is this. A number of people who have been working on
issues and nutrition in schools have been very concerned that the children in schools are
being fed junk food. They were very concerned about the opportunity or the possibility of
shifting that pattern to healthy foods. And we have something in the United States called
the free lunch program and basically in a federal program, that is part of the farm bill,
which is subsidized by large corporations to provide free school lunches for children in
schools. As this coalition began to build and find ways to which reach out they realize that
actually we have surrounding all of our metropolitan regions, small family farms that are
suffering because they have a very difficult time with a stable market. So they asked a
simple question what if we took the money that we get for the free school lunches for the
poor kids in the inner city schools and we created a program whereby small family
farmers on the suburban edge could in fact have a guaranteed market to bring healthy
foods into the schools. A very simple idea and it actually probably 100 years ago would
not even have been an exciting idea. But today its an exciting idea. So this farm to school
idea is being born in many places. The story that we tell about it is in Breakthrough
Communities and the part that we talk about is in Southern California. So the farm to
school movements is really about organizing a small family farms on the periphery of our
regional areas in our metropolitan regions the people have been there for a while are
now vulnerable because agribusiness all over the world as actually captured the food
market and basically created a great deal of instability.
So these farmers and also farm workers for that matter and many of whom are Latino
became part of this coalition and began to provide food for the inner-city schools. And the
results of this have been rather remarkable. Not only do the kids get introduced to what is
fresh food, and how that actually tastes different, and begin to develop an appetite for it
and healthy nutrition but also is introduced into the schools a nutrition learning agenda
for the school teachers. So this is one of 12 stories that we documented our book.
And now across the country the farm to school movements is spreading. So there are
literally hundreds of farm to school programs in places all across the country. And it is
really a shifting of our story from over reliance on fast food that is produced by
agribusiness to more locally produced that supports family farms, healthy schools and
healthy food and also begins to challenge the overwhelming emphasis on suburban sprawl,
that was mentioned in the story about Seattle, which originally surrounded many of our
metropolitan regions and was in many cases the reason why the Metropolitan regions got
located there in the first place. So I think the model of looking at ways in which we can
transform the basic human services for food, for health, shelter in such a way that
accommodate big change in our demographic country-region is a really important one.
I also want to point out and maybe I will ask Paloma to pick up on this one of the things
that we see that is happening in this as the country become more diversified, there are
new roles and new responsibilities for all of us. And one of the things that we are learning
is that it is very important for communities of colour not only to benefit from that shift
that is going on to help provide leadership and provide great models for us to make this
transition.
And I have to tell you Ann, I am going to take your story back because I know a lot of
people in our communities love the idea of sports. Its a way that they connect things and
this is a very inspiring way for people to understand their loyalty and their good work in
identification with this success and high standards. So we welcome this opportunity.
Marilyn Hamilton: I really love the story that youre telling about retraining through the
education system and should I think the traditional approach to the free lunches for
students to connect them to the farming community. I would consider that the eco-region
of the city and very very important. And you know we were listening to Jean Houston
earlier today and we were talking about the impact of fusion food meaning that how
cultures are learning about each other they are actually each others food. She pointed out
that we are what we eat. And if we are always eating the same food it actually shapes how
our bodies are bought our stories about ourselves. So this idea of connecting culture the
role and the urban through food is a very powerful theme today.
So I would also like to invite Paloma to share a story that is impacting the culture of
communities as you are working with the Breakthrough Communities model.
Paloma Pavel: Thank you so much. I realize as Ive been listening and taking in the stories
and information from Ann and from Milenko and from Carl It's been kind of stirring my
own imagination in new ways. So just linking to Ann, I want to say thank you for just
reminding me about sort of, how longingly are for embodiment right now and for really
getting out from under our computers and really being in our bodies in new ways. And
what are the things that divide us from having a more enlivened embodied life?
And Milenko, the sense of the creating of gathering spaces and what it means to be a we
and beyond ourselves as we try express this life of being in cities and living outside our
delusion of separation and separate selves.
So the place that Id like to go to is I think right now, is, in thinking about, what is the sport
that most enlivening our work around the creating of common space and what are the
different ways in which we are doing that, and how is story being at the heart of that?
What is at the new story that the emerging? So thank you.
Id like to begin with just a couple of lines from a poem that is also a narrative book that I
have co-authored with Anne Herbert and is illustrated by Mayumi Oda. And the book is
Random Kindness: Senseless Acts of Beauty and it is very much with me these days because
its coming out in an anniversary edition which is involving translation into other
languages. So it starts out:
Our leaders got confused
So were all leaders now
They told us there was nothing we could do.
They were wrong.
And when we tell ourselves there is nothing we can do
We are wrong.
We never know how much, and we never know how far it goes,
But always we have power.
Were all making the soup
Were all eating
Were all weaving the cloth
Were all wearing.
The steps we take now make new earth grow beneath our feet.
The steps we take now decide what kind of earth that will be.
In every moment we live, we have the choice
To find the fight
Or make delight
Its a circle.
Start the dance.

[Laughter. Wow.Mmmhmmm.] So here we are. We are living this moment on planet
Earth on which we are facing extinction, where we are facing with greenhouse gas
emissions and other loss of top soil and other things really its bringing us together in a
circle, in a new dance that is quite remarkable. And we have been on the front lines in
communities across the United States who actually has been, when we think of the
throwaway culture that we are moving away from and moving toward the life-sustaining
culture part of our throwaway culture is that we have been throwing away whole
communities. Not just pens that wear out, not just things, but weve been actually
throwing away whole cities due to our policies. So what we are caring about is something
that we are calling the regional equity movement and how do we work within
neighborhoods, within our communities and within our regions to actually grow healthy
regions?
So Id like to share a story from the front lines of the regional equity work and talk about it
in terms of a word that is very near and dear to me which is spatial apartheid. Just like in
South Africa we saw a racial apartheid really dividing parts of the city and the
Metropolitan region where you had Johannesburg and Soweto we are seeing how we
have the same spatial apartheid in each of our regions and communities. So a new front is
happening and new way it is happening where folks are learning, we are better together
than we are apart. And we can build strong regions by facing racial and class divides.
I love a group called We Act in New York and we had been talking about West Coast
stories so I thought it would be fun to bring in some of our East Coast heroes. And Peggy
Shepard in a founder of We Act and current executive director in West Harlem has built
one of the oldest environmental justice organizations in the world. And they are fighters
but they are also collaborators. And it took a huge fight to get the diesel trucks to stop
pouring in through West Harlem as the main entrance for commerce in New York and
instead distribute and to change that idling policy so that the dirty air and the body
burden of that issue wasnt held exclusively by West Harlem.
After they won that fight of getting the dirty diesel out of West Harlem, they had another
fight that was right on their hands and what it was the largest sewage treatment plant in
the United States was going to be built at the end of West 125th Street. So they had just
gotten diesel out and the shit was going to be dumped onto West Harlem literally. So they
began asking this question; why is it that communities of colour are the place where toxic
waste dumps are held? Why is it that that occurs and how do we get upstream of that, so
we can be at the table when decisions are made about our community? The communities
need to be in the decision-making structure when the decisions come down.
So they were able to stop it and Id like to tell this door he in a way that also includes
something that we uncovered as we found successful communities across the country.
And we call it the compass for transformative leadership. The first stage is waking up and
as I go through these stages with West Harlem Id like each of us to be thinking about what
it is in our own communities that might be part of this same compass. And to think about
how we might have greater impact by learning from some of the communities who have
been most at risk and who have been most successful.
So the first thing that happened in West Harlem is the stage of waking up. They said look
this is not just happening one, it is happening continuously. We need to wake up to how
social justice and environmental justice are linked in our community. And we need to
grow a bigger idea of who we are.
The second stage is saying no. So what they did the case of We Act they said no. We are
not going to have dirty diesel but we are also not going to have the sewage treatment plant
here and decisions being made without us.
So they moved to the third stage of the compass, which is getting grounded. And they
stepped back for a moment, after saying no and after getting legal action that stopped the
sewage treatment plant. And they said; what can we learn about our history? What can we
learn about what our capacities are? What is our natural leadership our folks who have
different skills in our community that can be nurtured and brought out to really change
this climate in West Harlem permanently? And they began doing visioning and leadership
training that would honour every single member and voice within the community as a
part of what the new West Harlem could be.
The fourth stage is exploring new horizons and what they began doing is saying; who are
we and what can we be and what can we reach for? And I remember the day that
community leaders stood on the edge of where the sewage treatment plant was going to
be and they looked out and they said; what else could this be? What new horizons could
we reach for? And looking up the Hudson River and out to the Palisades all of a sudden
they realized, on a really embodied level, that they were in fact, standing on the last
waterfront land in all of Manhattan which was about to be turned into a sewage treatment
plant. And they began saying; who might we be? [What] might we envision for this last
waterfront Park? And they realized that that last waterfront land - and they said; we want
a park. Parks are not just for folks down in the rich parts of New York or in the rich parts
of any city. But how do we get the green space here and have ourselves linked to part of
this regional story of what Manhattan is? So by preserving that land which is what their
vision became, as a park, they actually became linked to a larger story of the Hudson River
and also to island of Manhattan - one of our epic cities. In that way they were changing the
whole story of New York.
The fifth stage in the compass is saying yes to take the story from your own communities
to go through that sense of saying no, of getting grounded, of exploring a new horizon,
and then finding a bigger vision and they realize that they wanted not only a green vision
but also a cultural vision. And they began to imagine if at the top of public transit they
wanted a cultural village that would actually commemorate the many cultures of that area,
and also offer classes in various storytelling and arts, so they would continue to tell the
story of who they are as a people and who they might become and to regenerate that
through the sharing and teaching of various arts.
So Julia De Burgos Cultural Arts Center which is what it has become so I love this story of
We Act and West Harlem and they are an example of one of the Breakthrough
Communities that we have had the privilege to work with as across country where
communities of colour are not only reinventing their own communities but then providing
leadership for the whole of society and for the whole of the region. And we see this as
being an important part of the coming home where communities of colour are actually
the majority in the United States, and that we are learning how to change the old story of
spatial apartheid and see that my actually working across boundaries of race and class, we
actually create assets for the whole of the region. And now West Harlem is celebrating
itself as a destination not a place that is a pass-through or a place to deal drugs but the
place where you go to learn about this multicultural capacity and a place where you go to
enjoy the green space as well.
Marilyn Hamilton: Paloma this is a really beautiful synchronicity with what Jean Houston
was saying again earlier today and in fact I just finished writing an op-ed piece myself on
Integral Life it was called Celebrate Your City - so celebrating a city is a wonderful
segue for me to go back to Ann. Ann now that you have heard the others speak, you
started us off and gave a very global perspective no pun intended, or maybe it is -
sporting events actually wake up cities. I am curious - because you are not just in Canada
now but in other countries where perhaps something like apartheid or lack of equity
might be on the agendas, or you bring them on the agendas of the way of looking at
sustainability and telling a new story through the Olympic event. Can you tell us how you
might be observing from the stories that Milenko, Carl and Paloma have shared how they
help you understand how relationships matter in your work?
Ann Duffy: Thats a lot to kind of play with in terms of where is this new work going. I
would just offer listeners a scope that presents a new perspective. One is where the event
owner, in the case of the Olympic movement, the International Olympic committee and
also all the countries that are part of the Olympic movement or the same for FIFA the
soccer World Cups or the European Cup - or other sport events - there is a code of conduct,
a code of ethics that is really constantly evolving and progressing by these sport event
owners. And the bar can only go as high as that which can be stretched by the host event
organizing committee on the ground. And so I think what is really rich by the
conversations we have heard this afternoon is that there are some real examples of how
do we and body these principles and turn them into actions where we demonstrate how
unique partnerships civil society or regulators or corporate sponsors or NGOs can come
together on initiatives that help us experience what taking on these efforts can look like.
And I think what we are seeing now is that where there is momentum, we start seeing a
trend. And as the trend develops start seeing a best practice and as the best practice
evolves, we start seeing new standards. But I think where we can be opportunistic in
terms of finding host regions and event owners and communities of sponsor or sport
organization or the like, we are able to advance and we are able to experiment in advance
on these practical examples.
To be quite honest I think it is also important to all of us I think it is in the spirit of
international development that cultures and countries are very different and we have to
be respectful around what is important to the local host region and what do we hold true
as international universal rights, dreams and hopes? What I find inspiring in the work that
I have had a chance to do is that in the space of a couple of years, we are seeing countries
like Russia, and Brazil and new emergent countries in the sport movement like Turkey,
taking this on with the sort of assumption that this is part of what is required to be an
international player in posting sport events. But in so doing there is pride and innovation
and collaboration on the ground, such that new technology, new infrastructures, site
remediation and cleanup, sport development and sundry number of things can be
cultivated to because its considered now more of the norm in terms of how we go forward.
Carl Anthony: Could I mention something that I think ties some of these themes together?
I was very interested in Milenkos presentation about the tornado. And one of the things
that seems to be coming up around this conversation about sports and also disasters is
that there are really wonderful opportunities within these things within these periodic
events which happen in our lives and one of the things thats very interesting to us is
weve been doing work in California with an executive order called health in all policies.
And one of the things that is of great concern in California is people have understood that
our greenhouse gas emissions is coming a lot from our whole reliance on automobiles.
And so the health Department of California was looking for examples of ways that public
transportation could result in reduction of greenhouse gases, but also in improving
community health. And you know what popped up? The Olympics in Atlanta.
What happened is that when they decided to put the Olympics together they wanted to
showcase Atlanta so they had to public transportation as part of the showcase for the
period of the planning and implementation of the Olympics occurred. And what has
happened is it is now a source of data that is being used by the Department of Public
health in California about how because they made this investment in public transit in
order to take advantage of this particular moment, it also provides data that can be used
to actually transfer resources from our overreliance on automobiles to public
transportation. So I thought of that and I also wanted to mention the same thing is true
we had terrible news about tornadoes in New York in the last couple of days that we
have these events which are also challenging events but they also do present the kind of
opportunities we have heard about this afternoon.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats a great observation Carl. I was thinking the theme of
sustainability also runs all of your stories. In our session at noon we heard from Gail
Hochachka, who is working in developing countries particularly in the South but she was
saying (she is in her thirties) she knows that when she was a young girl, she didnt hear
the word sustainability being used at all in the lexicon or in the narrative of the stories.
But now she is working even in El Salvador, working around climate change with small
villages. They are quite able to express the effects of climate change on themselves, even
to the fact that she used the example that since you talked about food earlier in their
village they didnt have any beans this last year because of climate change had actually
affected their capacity to grow a crop that was pretty stable for them in their area. So this
idea that the changing story, and Ann since you were really the person who was really
championing sustainability in the Olympic movement in the Vancouver 2010 Games, can
you see now that the theme actually got a life of its own? That it is moving forward
through other Olympic events that people want to pick something like that up and carry it
forward in their own way?
Ann Duffy: Absolutely, and I think that we are seeing it being transpired both explicitly
and implicitly. Event organizers like the Olympics or Pan-American games or FIFA or
World Cups or whatever, there is an inherent and a professional coach towards
transferring knowledge and experience and certainly there is a formal program that most
of these sports events organizers around transfer of knowledge learning. And the learning
experience of the most recent host on what worked well and what the agenda is and might
be going forward. And then there is the implicit inspiration that happens when people
tune in to not only the benevolent value of thinking about this about sport events but real
concrete, tangible measurable benefits of re mediating contaminated sites in urban
centres, building multi-use facilities that benefit the community, associating sponsors with
a brand that helps profile and expand market share, solutions that reduce risk and create
benefits that people are waking up to saying Oh my goodness there really is an
opportunity here. And it's really just practical common sense but in a forum that that is
both supportive but ultimately celebrates and profiles this progress over time.
Marilyn Hamilton - Thanks for just making that connection Ann. I'd like to now go back
to Milenko because a theme I'm noticing across everybody's stories the invitation was to
tell the influence or effects of storytelling or a culture in your work and there's a
fascinating connection with the locations or space in the cities and your gathering places,
the process that you described and creating them, I'm curious as a result of people
working in the way that Pomegranate Centre creates the conditions for, do you notice that
the stories change from the beginning of your projects to the end?
Milenko Matanovic - I think what we notice most of all is that people realize at the end of
the journey how much they are capable of. They realize that a project that we proposed to
do with them initially seems overwhelming to them. They don't know how to do it. By the
time it's done, the pride, the realization that not only that they did it but they did it well.
Our work is filled with interesting tensions as I'm sure all our work is, when we deal with
large topics like sustainability and the future of our planet and livability and so on. So one
of the tensions we discover all the time is this tension between inclusion and decision
making - how to include as many voices but still make quick decisions. And it plays itself
out in every project differently.
But with a code of conduct that we inspire in every project, we move through that
relatively quickly. And then, we ask people to turn into artists. And the good news is that
lurking just under the skin of our surfaces, is, you know, lurking and artist in everyone.
You ask people who they really would like to be and usually they describe themselves as
artists, as poets and painters and film makers and musicians. And I think art is just such a
fundamental quality of our existence and right now we relegate art to a particular industry
of artists. And part of the story that I'm becoming aware of is that art is just so much more
fundamental. It shouldn't be restricted to this narrow layer of our existence. And when
one is concerned with art automatically you are concerned with materials that you work
with, with team work, how you work with other people with excellence, with beauty, all
those qualities that are deeply ingrained in our existence. So every culture has this
tradition of craft that probably have their origins in magical rituals of our ancestors and so
a paddle for a canoe that I carve out of wood, needs to be made beautiful as well as being
made practical because you want to have the magic to cross dangerous rivers and seas.
That goes on into buildings, and clothing and food and everything.
Part of what we are discovering now is that the desire for carefully expressing something
and Paloma, you talked about embodiment, that desire to make it real, to incarnate some
important idea, and even in a small way give it substance, give it some credence. We find
that our projects allow that to surface more easily. And that people at the end of the
project are surprised at their own ability and they know very well that our cities are filled
with places where our anger and our hostilities are deposited. But when we finish our
project they realize how beautiful a project can be when people deposit their care, their
best selves.
I think that is part of what is happening now in our culture. I think we are all getting tired
of slogans and big ideas, that there's a certain restlessness that we find in communities
now that people want to take it further, from discussion into action. It's like all of us that
we're talking about. Whether it's a sports event or is it re-claiming a neighbourhood for
ourselves.
Perhaps, there is good news in this economic downturn therefore because we find now, in
working with communities there are fewer people waiting for some miracle, for some
external agency to intervene on their behalf. They are not waiting for the Gates
Foundation Fund anymore and they're not waiting for the local government grants. They
suddenly realize, it's up to us and when that story (it's up to us to start shaping things)
surfaces, with that surfaces also this idea of artistry. Let's make it beautiful. Let's make it
wonderful. Let's own this place where we live and not just exist there. We live there. We
are part of it. And I think that is part of the sustainability story these days.
Marilyn Hamilton Milenko, that is a very, very rich way of responding to a question that
has come up through our audience on the dashboard here in wondering what
relationships exist between the citizens and City Hall in your projects and what I hear you
saying is that it's quite possible even, for people from City Hall to discover that they're
artists and that they themselves have different ways of contributing to the gathering place
and building community. Would that be a fair thing to gather from what you are saying?
Milenko Matanovic Well I think no one is excluded from those talents yes. In terms of
operational, how it operates when we do projects in different cities, in Tuscaloosa the
Parks Department actually worked with us and was a partner with us but we find as a
routine, the larger the city the larger the big bureaucracy, the harder it is to do these kinds
of projects because there's such an anxiety of things going wrong, somebody may get hurt,
let's slow the process down. And in our model momentum is a very precious commodity
that we waste all the time. And so we try to keep the momentum going. And that's one of
the frustrating things with larger civic processes, that they're so long, so convoluted, that
people who were there at the beginning never see the middle or the end of their idea. And
we find a great frustration exists now with many citizens. We see it when they come to our
meetings and they say Is this one of those visioning sessions? And then they say If it is,
then I'm out of here. I've done my visioning. I'm done with that. I want something more
now. I want some promises that my ideas and our ideas will be realized. So institutionally
it's harder to do that in larger bureaucracies, in larger institutions because there are so
many players that have a say in the execution of a project. So we mainly work in smaller
communities though we are going to do a project in San Francisco and in Boston in the
next few years and we're doing a project in San Diego right now. So we'll be testing our
work in larger cities also. We've done quite a few projects this year in Seattle.
Marilyn Hamilton - So thank you Milenko and I'm looking at the time and that I know you
have to be someplace else on the half hour so I'm wondering if you might build a bridge for
me. We'll go a little bit longer so that we can include some of the story that Carl and
Paloma have to share. Maybe you have an observation about what Paloma and Carl have
already shared with their work both in the story about food and their story about West
Harlem. Any comments that you'd like to make or any questions that you want to give
them as you prepare to leave for your next appointment?
Milenko Matanovic Thank you for understanding. Well my closing thought would be
this - that we are re-discovering the power of a local community or a community of place.
I find there is great confusion that exists in our country around the topic of community.
And for many people our community is a group of people who believe in what I believe in.
So they are people who are like me. The good news is that in communities of places now
which are all our neighborhoods, the differences are exploding and you know we work in
communities where a person living in that neighborhood sits next to a Somali immigrant
that moved there three weeks ago. And such huge differences exist in every one of our
neighbourhoods. The question we are asking then is how to take advantage of those
differences and Pomegranate Centre, which is the name of my non-profit, we believe that
differences, those differences are our greatest assets and then when we just take
advantage of all the wisdom that we have in our neighborhoods, in our communities of
place and extract that wisdom, toward a common goal, that's a really, really powerful thing
that is happening. And your story of West Harlem was an example of that transformation.
But there is something about locality and those differences that exist locally that I think is
a very important part of this storytelling now. While global events are shaping all of our
lives, it's most likely going to be local innovations that will ricochet back to a larger global
movement. It will not come from the other way around. So I don't know if you all agree
with me but that would be my closing thought.
Marilyn Hamilton (Laughter) Well, thank you Milenko. That is a lovely thought to leave
on and we wish you well for your next part of today.
Milenko Matanovic - I apologize about needing to leave. They were good discussions.
Thank you so much.
Marilyn Hamilton Thank you Milenko. Thank you very much. And I am going to come
back to Carl and Paloma. I think that the difference that makes a difference that Milenko
just identified is also actually an example and a reiteration of what Jean Huston was
talking about earlier today. And she did also talk about, how as we emerge a global story
about our planet of cities that in fact the stories will be very localized and that's where, the
sort of real power will come from. I'm really curious Paloma if you can tell us more about,
in your work how you create and nurture the generative relationships that make things
like the West Harlem story possible.
Paloma Pavel Thank you so much for asking that and actually, storytelling is at the heart
of it. When we go into a new community or when we're working with local communities
or neighborhoods, the way we often start is by telling the story. We will tell the story of
that place and we'll have people talk about also the story of their name and sort of the
name and begin unpacking the story of the place where they were born and the place that
we are now gathering. And that way of connecting very intimately to their embodiment
and beginning to be present with one another because we find out that we are, so many of
us, that we are river people. I hope Carl will talk about how that we are all ancestors of the
stars and how there's a real important inter-generational story telling opportunity as we
reinvent our cities. But I'm thinking of an experience in West Chicago at West Garfield in
Chicago where every summer there's a reflection on what did we learn? It's an inter-
generational reflection where the youngsters and the elders talk to one another about:
What are the goals that we set and, what are the things that we achieved and learned
within our community and within our village here in West Garfield? And they tell that
around what is a griot circle, a kind of a central plaza among many of the buildings that
they have reclaimed and given new life to. An abandoned hospital which is now various
types of affordable housing. And a church which had been abandoned which is now a
performance centre. And in the middle of that plaza they have created a sculpture, where
a young person or an older person can tell the story or dance the story of what we did this
year that we're proud of. Or what we did this year that was so difficult. And they will
begin that by also sharing the story of who they are in the community. And then as a result
of the stories of that year, they decide to make a mural. And the Chicago Art Institute
sends an artist every year that pairs with them and partners with them to actually turn
those stories that are the life blood, of the blood and sweat and tears of what has gone on
that year and what has been achieved and they turn it into a mural. And they choose the
building that's going to be the mural that year and they tell the story of who we are as a
story people as we re-invent and re-imagine our community over time. And I especially
like the inter-generational aspect of that.
Marilyn Hamilton - Yes that's come up several times too, that embodiment of the work
and the intergenerational aspect of weaving the stories of different generations tell
together so that we can actually see the unfolding of a journey that may take several
generations for it to unfold even though we say that these days time has speeded up so
quickly. So I am mindful speaking of time that I would like to bring our story telling
conversation to a final round here and I will maybe start with Carl and then go back to Ann
and Paloma to just observe what are the themes about story telling that you've heard in
our different voices today that are contributing to a new story for the city? Carl, what are
you noticing?
Carl Anthony - Well first of all, I'm really pleased, we spent a lot of time working on
stories that have been hidden and sometimes stories that have been avoided. And I must
say I was astonished in listening at the story of the Olympics as being a story about
sustainability. I spend a lot of time talking with people about sustainability and also have
many friends that watched the Olympics and not this connection, really illustrates to me,
the power of connection. The power of making connections between things that are
somewhat disparate and I think when Dr. Pavel talks about reaching for new horizons,
what I'm hearing in this is we need to be mindful, that we have the opportunity in this
huge challenge, global challenge of climate change and species disappearance and
migrations from one place to the other and the person from Somalia living next door to
someone in Chicago that's been living there for seven generations presents a kind of
discontinuity but it also represents an opportunity to really see the new story that's
emerging.
I particularly want to underscore how important it is that communities of colour
understand and re-claim the stories that we have had over the many generations and even
as we talk about sustainability it is very important to bring those stories of communities of
colour into the heart of the discussion about sustainability. My ancestors, I have Native
American ancestors and ancestors from Europe but also from Africa who worked the land
in this country for ten generations and we don't really hear much about the challenge of
what our experience has been under conditions of forced labour and how we now have
moved to the cities and many of communities long to our connection to land. You don't
hear enough about how those longings can be realized I think in the emerging city.
Marilyn Hamilton - That's a wonderful observation Carl and it reminds me of a story
again that Jean Huston told this morning about bringing together (this was her work
within India) about the same kind of general situation you're describing she brought the
executive of Tata Corporation which is the largest corporation private sector in India
together with some of the lower class Indians and first they didn't think they had anything
to say to each other and they were rather disdainful of doing that. And of course Jean had
the ways to bring them together anyway and they discovered their common humanity and
indeed what happened was exactly what you said. They discovered things that they didn't
even know they would know, unless they brought these polarities of culture together. So,
thanks for that.
Carl Anthony - I just want to underscore that is one of the things that makes the city
magic.
Marilyn Hamilton It is, it is magic! I certainly, the more that I study the city, the more I
believe that the reason that the cultural aspect of the city is so important is because I do
think that's the dynamic. Stories are us. We are our stories and they do need to be told. In
many cases if not all stories are more important than food. So Ann I'd like to come back to
you. What have you heard? What are the themes you've heard in the conversation today
that are contributing to a new story for the city?
Ann Duffy - Oh, well I think we've heard a number of elements of the story around
whether it's responding to a crisis or whether it's initiated by recognizing a social ill in
terms of social and community injustice or an opportunity, a positive catalyzing event that
can shift and reposition how a city can evolve that can, you know, whether it be negative
influences or chronic influences, or a positive spark that I use this funny expression. It's
almost like we have City Whisperers, people that can see what they're doing on the ground
in their own organization, in their network and cluster but can also see a bigger game or a
bigger role that can be explored when these unique opportunities are ripe and ready. We
are just hearing a few wonderful examples today, but I'm sure there's many, many more.
We are in a time in history where the field of sustainability and urban sustainability and
possibility of City 2.0 is in its geniuses and there is a lot to consider for our human hearts
and minds to grok or anticipate on this and a wonderful method and a wonderful muse is
that of story, where I make information and inspiration into roles and examples helps us to
see what's possible and it helps us to see ourselves and our efforts in these stories. So I
think this work is an art and a science. There are practical technical solutions. There's
also storytelling in artful ways to communicate and link and make meaning out of this that
is all under the vernacular of divining a and bringing to fruition a more livable region
where we can live, work, play and learn.
Marilyn Hamilton - Yes and I must say that I am quite an Olympics fan and every time the
Olympics come up I am just rooted to watching the success and the excellence of the
human system being expressed. And probably going back to Sydney and then to Beijing
and then being right in the centre of Vancouver I have actually seen and felt how those
cities re-storied themselves through the story of excellence and now listening to how your
work has actually embraced a much wider value under sustainability, that this was kind of
rooted in one of the themes of this whole conference which is, that we are being radically
optimistic about our approach to cities and I think the Olympic story gives us that sort of
zest for life and that indomitable spirit where we are constantly watching records being
broken and so that we can see re-impossible - impossible when we see what happens on
our screens or if we're lucky enough to be in the city where it is happening, you can just
feel the whole culture be uplifted with this positive wave and the story changes as we live
it. So thank you Ann for participating and bringing that really surprising message to us
and I'd like to just conclude with Paloma and ask you, what are the themes you heard
today about culture as a real intelligence that's changing the future of the city, the story of
the city?
Paloma Pavel - Thank you. I love this way in which - how this super heroes of the
Olympics - and the building of the Commons that Milenko talked about and how people are
discovering sort of the everyday super heroes within each one of us and within our
communities as we take our visions and put them into action. I think what we are learning
about story is that there are some stories that we need to say no to. But there are huge
stories that we can say yes to. In some ways when we have the aspiration of sort of putting
a man on the moon, you know I feel like what we're doing now is we're having a new
aspiration which is bringing a human to earth. And that this re-earthing, this re-inhabiting
of our cities and and of our communities can be an aspiration that can call on just as much
of that sort of full goal, the verve, that magnificence, that what we need to do, what we
need to call on in each of ourselves is that sort of Olympic hero to actually protect our
water, plant our food, create our murals, come back to one another, in a way that is heroic
and also every day. I loved the kind of juxtaposition when Milenko talked about the small
and the simple of what he's doing with people and what we see with folks sort of in their
own backyards, sort of going from being in the dump to being in Paradise and finding that
in each others' eyes as we're linking arms and work together.
Marilyn Hamilton: What a beautiful image and I really appreciate that you brought in not
only that huge energy that emerges when we do that but another theme that's been
running through several of our sessions is that discovery or that re-discovery of the
common. And so I'm going to sort of invoke that as part of our new story for the city as we
bring our session today for the exploration of the Intelligence of Culture or Storytelling in
the city [to a close]. And I want to thank you Paloma, thank you Carl for joining us from
Breakthrough Communities, thank you Ann for telling us the story of how the Olympics
and sustainability are changing our whole sense of ourselves and our world. And thanks
of course, to Milenko for giving us the stories of how to create the gathering places in our
cities, where by creating them together, we own them and by doing that we change the
story of the city. So thank you all.

1
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Speakei: Naik BeKay
Inteiviewei: Naiilyn Bamilton, Ph.B.
Septembei 1S, 2u12
="/> ?(@"A is a iegisteieu aichitect anu Associate Piofessoi at the
College of Aichitectuie anu Besign, 0niveisity of Tennessee, Knoxville.
Naik specializes in sustainable uesign theoiy, ieseaich, uesign tools, anu
piactice. Bis ieseaich inteiests aie the impact of builuing anu uiban
uesign uecisions on enviionmental quality, anu the stuuy of how to cieate
ecological integiity thiough the foim anu oiganization of the built
enviionment. Bis book, !"#$%&'( *+,#'-"'.($ /$,-%"0 1&'",23&4'#-5$
6$&,7$8#-5$,, exploies the application of integial theoiy to sustainable uesign anu uesign
euucation. The thiiu euition of his book, *+"9 :-";9 '"; <-%=#0 >&8=-#$8#+&'( /$,-%"
*#&'#$%-$,, co-authoieu with u. Z. Biown, has just been ieleaseu. Naik co-euits anu
manages an online continuing euucation Ceitificate in Sustainable Besign anu uieen
Builuing foi iegisteieu uesign piofessionals. Since 2uu7 he has chaiieu the School of
Aichitectuie's uiauuate Piogiam in Aichitectuie anu seives as Biiectoi of uiauuate
Stuuies foi the College of Aichitectuie anu Besign.
="/#*A1 B"8#*,C12 Naik the way I'u like to set up the inteiview this moining is I was
looking at youi book, !"#$%&'( *+,#'-"'.($ /$,-%" (IST), touay anu I wanteu to actually
shaie a quotation fiom the pieface of the book that I think actually helpeu me to fiame
why I was so impiesseu with the way that you appioacheu integial sustainable uesign.
You saiu, "Foi me the value of looking at uesign thiough an integial lens is that it has
alloweu me to glimpse aieas of expeitise that otheis have uevelopeu moie than I have,
anu finally to be able to honoi them anu incluue theii valuable peispectives in my own
woik. As a iesult it has also openeu my eyes to the fact that the peispectives that I have
been steepeu in foi the last 2S yeais aie also only paitially tiue. Telling the whole stoiy
involves listening to anu fiom otheis' peispectives - theii cultuial, inuiviuual, ecological,
as well as technical peispectives. Then each viewpoint takes its valuable anu appiopiiate
place in a wiuei peispective wheie nothing is missing. Rich human expeiiences, significant
cultuial meaning, high tech peifoimance anu tiue ecological sense all meige into
something much iichei, tiuei anu ultimately moie aesthetically pleasing. Welcome to the
futuie of uesign."
Anu I say, welcome to the futuie of the city that we'ie tiying to uesign foi. Coulu you tell
me a little bit, Naik, how you came to think about the whole appioach to uesign; not just
thiough sustainability lenses, but thiough integial lenses; anu how this has openeu up foi
you a whole new intelligence foi thinking about the city.
="/> ?(@"A2 Well that's a bioau question, anu thank you foi that nice intiouuction. I
mean that's what we'ie up to in the confeience, expanuing those peispectives, anu putting
that laige pictuie togethei. I guess I staiteu off in uesign in a moueinistic euucation. I went
to Tulane in the 197us anu eaily 198us, anu that was a woilu in which the woiu "beauty"
was nevei mentioneu; the woiu "context" was nevei mentioneu. Ceitainly none of the
issues of the contempoiaiy pluialistic woilu of iace, class anu genuei, anu taking in
multiple peispectives, none of that evei ieally existeu foi me, anu wasn't on the hoiizon
theie at all.
I became inteiesteu in the technological view of sustainable uesign, anu went into
piacticing that foi awhile, anu went back to giauuate school to stuuy it even moie. In
uoing that, I encounteieu iueas of ecology that expanueu my thinking of uesign into the
|AQALj lowei-iight peispective. It was piobably my intiouuction to Ken Wilbei that
pointeu out theie was a whole woilu theie that was missing on the left-siue quauiants,
uealing with expeiience anu uealing with cultuies.
At the same time, it became veiy appaient that the kinu of aiguments that weie being
maue about why making an eneigy efficient builuing foi an eneigy efficient city, oi one
that integiateu with the local foices of the site oi the ecology - that was basically an
aigument that was coming fiom a scientific anu objective woiluview - that wasn't lanuing
on ceitain of my colleagues anu ceitain stuuents. So uesigneis ieally have a mix of
uiffeient peispectives. But a couple of the majoi ones that it wasn't hitting on weie the
aichitects that weie inteiesteu in cieating gieat expeiiences oi cieating expiessive
builuings, so that language just wasn't hitting foi them. So I ieally began to look at what
woulu make what I was uoing moie ielevant to that auuience. Anu that was the genesis of
it, ieally.
="/#*A12 So Naik, when you think about the genesis, anu think about the piinciples that
you've come to fiame anu aiticulate so beautifully in the book, can you tell us about how
eneigy anu the life sustaining foice come thiough you as a uesignei anu teachei of
uesigneis, anu how you aie ieally guiuing otheis to tiansfei that into city uesign.
="/>2 Well I'll take a shot at that question. It's ieally two questions theie: one about the
inuiviuual anu one about the city. Anu ieally the way I woikeu with stuuents, anu the way
I woik with anyone ieally, anu myself, is that theie is a ceitain value to oui being
uncomfoitable.
0ne of the things I talk about in the Integial Besign book is the way that we can expanu
anu unueistanu anu take viewpoints of othei ways to see the woilu, anu then look at any
subject, incluuing the uesign of the city, anu see thiough all those uiffeient lenses. That's a
little complex in some ways, anu an integialist can get it to sounu veiy complex, too. So
one of the easy ways, I think, to uo that is to be able to be awaie of what one's own
stiengths aie. What youi home uominant peispective is. Then just take one othei
peispective. So in a seminai last semestei, when I was woiking foi the fiist time with the
IST book, I askeu stuuents to uo |an exeicise in taking a uiffeient peispectivej. Let's say
technical stuuents - they might take up the cultuial peispective anu tiy that on. 0i if they
weie moie aitistically oiienteu stuuents, they might tiy to uelve in anu unueistanu the
ecological systems view.
I think it's ieally impoitant we honoi wheie people aie, anu that we'ie all a mix of
uiffeient uegiees of uevelopment, anu we can take on one thing at a time anu push oui
euge a little bit. The othei aspect that's soit of missing is that we can miss oui uepth. In
some ways, what woiks ieally well in the complex woilu of uesign, anu ceitainly in the
moie complex woilu of the city, is that eveiybouy is a playei in theii uesign of the city -
anu that can be potentially eveiyone. Eveiybouy possesses |some kinu ofj knowleuge
wheie they'ie becoming an expeit at something, anu have the kinu of bioau contextual
oveiview that places that paiticulai knowleuge into a laigei context anu peispective. So as
I saiu befoie, my path staiteu at the uppei-iight quauiant anu moveu aiounu the ciicle of
the quauiants. I founu the one that was most uiffeient foi me, anu wheie my cutting euge
is locateu, is the cultuial peispective - which is pait foui of the book, wheie we talk about
connecting with |uiffeient ielationships anu ouij natuie.
="/#*A12 Thanks foi that explanation Naik. I wonuei if you woulu be so kinu as to actually
unpack what you'ie talking about with the quauiants. We heaiu about the quauiants
eailiei in the week - actually in the uialogue I hau with Ken Wilbei (on oui website we uo
have a map that people can look at. Paiticipants can just click on the PBF anu uownloau
that map especially to look at the quauiants). Fiom youi peispective, if you coulu just give
us a walkthiough of the quauiants, I think that woulu be veiy helpful to the auuience.

="/>2 The basic uistinctions aie between a kinu of matiix that makes a uistinction
between the objective anu subjective on one axis anu collective anu inuiviuual on anothei
axis. So then we iefei to the uppei-iight peispective as "I"; anu we talk about "IT" as the
peispective of behaviois oi objective woilu of "I." In aichitectuie, that question comes
uown to how uo we shape foim in builuings oi in cities to optimize peifoimance. So you
can think about that as the logic of the engineei. If you uiop uown to the lowei iight, we'ie
looking at something that's both objective anu collective oi systemic, oi the "ITS" woilu, as
you intiouuceu touay's topic. So that's the peispective of the systems, anu what ieally is
impoitant theie is how uoes something fit into its context. Bow uoes it become pait of a
laigei social system, anu how uo all the uiffeient paits woik togethei with theii vaiious
flows of eneigy, infoimation, anu mateiials. Then if we move aiounu to the lowei-left
peispective, that's what I iefei to as the cultuie peispective, the "WE" iealm, that's both
subjective anu collective oi complex - so it's a woilu in which we have to know things by
inteiacting anu having conveisations with othei people, anu wheie the woilu of meaning
emeiges. In the woilu of uesign, that has to uo with questions about how uoes uesign
convey anu communicate cultuial meaning, the kinu of myths anu stoiies that we live
insiue of. The physical woilu is the most manifest anu most visible expiession of oui
values as a cultuie, that exists foi sometimes hunuieus oi even thousanus of yeais. Anu
then finally in the uppei-left quauiant, oi the iealm of "I," I call that the "expeiiences"
peispective, so that 's the subjective inteiioi of inuiviuuals in the woilu of uesign. In the
woilu of uesign, that might be aesthetics, as oui own expeiience of the natuial anu built
woilus. So those aie the basic peispectives
="/#*A12 Thanks Naik - that's ieally helpful, because in thinking of uesign, each one of
those peispectives is something that becomes ieally impoitant to contiibuting a uesign
that coulu fit with cultuie anu fit with natuie. Naybe you coulu expanu a little bit about
how you see the stiuctuies anu systems in cities that suppoit the well being of all.
="/>2 That's a gieat question. So let's holu that foi just a seconu, because I think I skippeu
the seconu pait of youi question eailiei about eneigy in the city. Anu this leaus iight in I
think to youi next question. So the seconu pait of youi fiist question hau to uo with how
we manage the flows of eneigy in the city oi in city uesign, which is basically a systems-
oiienteu question. That ieally has two paits to it; it has a stiuctuial pait anu a piocess
pait. So in uesign, we tiauitionally talk about those uistinctions as "foim" anu "function,"
but an ecologist may think of it moie as "stiuctuie" anu "piocess." Both of those things aie
impoitant, but both of them aie paitials. Sometimes we think about "what's wiong in
cities," when it gets out of balance, because what we'ie neeuing to have is bettei feeuback.
So the iuea is, that we get a signal that says the system is out of balance. Then we can take
some coiiection to coiiect that; take some action. That's the kinu of feeuback that's
impoitant. It's simply like getting the iight infoimation at the iight time coming to the
iight peison who can make the iight uecision. Anu that woiks ieally well when you have a
system that's ieally well uesigneu, like the human bouy, say. So you can take the vital signs
anu see the bloou piessuie's off, anu you can aujust the uiet oi exeicise, oi give it some
kinu of a uiug.
But the "what I see as the pioblem in the city" is that it's not actually uesigneu with that
kinu of systemic elegance, like a living oiganism is. So the flip siue of it, then, is to look at
the stiuctuie oi the foim, anu that's ieally what uesigneis aie inteiesteu in. The uesigneis
aie inteiesteu in manipulating the foim, anu asking, "Bow uoes the piocess woik, how
uoes the flows get guiueu oi aujusteu by that foim."
So the city itself then, like you say in youi book, can be thought of as a living system. The
pioblem, I think, is we've stiuctuieu it moie like a machine most of the time. So fiom the
uesign peispective, theie's a ieally inteiesting question. We can say, what's the city foim
that woulu emeige if it weie intenueu oi uesigneu to be shaping the flows of whatevei
you'ie measuiing, oi whatevei youi monitoiing. In paiticulai, I'm inteiesteu in the flows
of ecological piocess - let's say eneigy in the builuings, anu eneigy in the city.
That's a kinu of paiauigm-shifting view, to see that it's not just taking the vital signs anu
making aujustments to the stiuctuies that exist, but that, funuamentally, we ask, "What
makes the flows within the system be how they aie. What is the stiuctuie in which those
stiuctuies aie flowing." Beie's an example of how that woulu be: If you thought about
Tennessee, wheie we have heie a lot of iiveis, anu a lot of uams on the iiveis. If the watei
goes up oi uown, the amount of watei flowing thiough the uam can be aujusteu, anu
theie's a complex system of monitoiing that takes caie of that. That's a kinu of feeuback
that then makes an aujustment to manage the system. But imagine you hau the
oppoitunity to ie-shape the lanu foim, the actual foim of the lanuscape itself. This is
what's guiuing that entiie flow of all the watei that enus up in the iivei at the uam. So
that's the kinu of uistinction in the city that I'm talking about, in teims of managing eneigy.
="/#*A12 Thank you foi that claiification, anu foi going back anu builuing on the foimei
question. You can tell that you've listeneu to youi stuuents a lot, so you'ie goou at the
most uemanuing pait of conveisation |anu uialoguej. The inteiesting thing that I finu
(theie's many inteiesting things using the integial mouel) is that it's actually fiactal, so
you can apply it at many levels of scale, anu you've uone that veiy beautifully in youi book.
It also has this othei featuie that is, I woulu say, hologiaphic. So each of the quauiants can
be paiseu out into quauiants as well. This must ieally pioviue quite a poweiful uesign
scaffoluing foi thinking about uesign in the city. Woulu you like to make any comments
about that, because I thought that's something you uiu veiy elegantly in the book in many
ways.
="/>2 Bow about you iefiame that once moie foi me.
="/#*A12 0K, faii enough. You just gave a veiy goou uesciiption of how the foui quauiants
woik. But you uo talk about the foui peispectives of integial sustainable uesign, anu how
you have talkeu about the foim of peifoimance, the foim of self, the foim of meaning anu
the foim of expeiiences. Now you just talkeu about foim as that which we might
|unueistanuj fiom a iight-siue quauiant peispective. In this way of looking at it, you
actually can notice foim as it applies thiough each of the lenses of each of the quauiants.
You went into a veiy ueep way of being able to talk about it - maybe you coulu tell us
moie about how you see uesigneis using piocess that enables them to access all foui
quauiants.
="/>2 0ne way to think about uesign is to think about line anu foim anu stiuctuie. Then
theie's a seiies of othei lines, each of which have to uo with a kinu of piocess. So
eveiything can be all the issues of uesign; can be thought of as infoiming the foim oi the
stiuctuie itself. Naybe one way to get at that is moie metaphoiic. I think about foui kinus
of metaphois. I'm not limiteu to foui, but that's foui that occui foi me. The fiist one is the
8-#? ', ' (-5-"% ,?,#$4, which we talkeu about alieauy. Anothei one might be the 8-#? ',
$@7$&-$"8$ 32 "'#+&$; a thiiu one, the 8-#? ', "'#-5$ 7('8$, anu the fouith, the 8-#? ', 5-,-.($
"'#+&'( 3&;$&. Each one of those can be consiueieu thiough the lens of asking, "What aie
the foims that woik theie, anu what aie the piocesses at woik theie." So fiom the living
systems peispective, if we ask the basic question, "What foim uoes the city take if we
unueistanu it as a manifestation of natuial piocess.", theie's a cential insight to that
viewpoint that says ('";,8'7$, '&$ (-5-"% ,?,#$4,. Anu living systems have been aiounu foi
foui billion yeais, anu they've been evolving, anu that's what soit of woiks on planet Eaith.
That's the game we have to play if we'ie going to stay heie foi the long-teim.
Then we can look at living systems as mouels foi uesign. We look out at a lanuscape, anu
we look into an ecosystem, anu |askj how is that thing oiganizeu, how uoes it woik. It
lives on the solai eneigy income that's pioviueu to it, foi the most pait. It has a heavy
sense of iecycling of all of its nutiients anu mateiials. All of its inteiactions aie,
statistically at least, opeiating within ceitain kinus of bounuaiies, with maximal
inteichanges insiue of those bounuaiies, anu minimal inteichanges acioss those
bounuaiies fiom one system to the next. What uoes the lanuscape uo in teims of its eneigy
piouuction, eneigy stoiage, iecycling, anu all of those kinus of piinciples. All those aie
ieally goou ways of looking at what's the analogue in oui own uiban systems. Anu how
can we leain something fiom how that natuial system stiuctuies itself, anu almost cieate
a human analogue. Boes that help.
="/#*A12 Yes it uoes. Anu it leaus me on to wanting to ask you to talk moie fiom youi
peispective in looking at healthy city stiuctuies anu systems. What aie the uesign
qualities that you as a uesignei want to put into them, anu how uo you use that kinu of a
fiame to look at otheis who have cieateu uesigns.
="/>2 I finu that what uesign is ieally about, in some ways, is the ait of making some
possible vision of the futuie, ieal in the piesent. So the ieal challenge that we have is
imagining what uoesn't exist yet, anu what's not yet visible. So we have to make a bieak
fiom what we see anu what we know, anu live in a woilu in which things aie possible.
That's an amazing woilu to live in. Some of the qualities |can be imagineu thioughj
metaphoi; foi instance, the city as an expeiience of natuie. We'ie looking at what foim the
city might take if we unueistoou that natuie was a place wheie humans uevelop. So the
qualities that emeige in that ueep ielationship with natuie aie, that natuie is feeuing us,
feeuing oui minus, feeuing oui souls, in auuition to the mateiial existence that it pioviues
foi us. Anu that some contact with natuie is actually goou foi us. some people think even
necessaiy foi healthy uevelopment. Anu that we have some ieal innate ecological
aesthetic. So if you ask people what's beautiful, anu you show them a pictuie of a foiest. 0i
you ask them what aie the most amazing places anu high expeiiences they have hau, most
have occuiieu - at least with Noith Ameiicans - in some natuial setting: at the beach, on
the mountain top, anu so foith. We can think about the qualities of the stiuctuie as in
some way ielateu to, but funuamentally uiffeient fiom, just thinking about the objective
aspects of the stiuctuie.
0ne of the gieat things about the integial mouel is, while you can take one of the
peispectives, it's actually calling foith in us to see the thing we'ie viewing fiom those
|otheij peispectives as simultaneously having those uiffeient chaiacteiistics. Foi instance,
we coulu think about the city as a hyuiologic system - the city as a habitat netwoik. Anu
we might geneiate a system in the city wheieby we piotecteu the stieams anu uncoveieu
them anu uug them up anu uay-lighteu them anu maue the places foi chiluien to play anu
foi a wiue vaiiety of species that we shaie the city with to inhabit.
If we pull foiwaiu the lens of imagination, then we can ieally access those qualitative
aspects of the functional lowei-iight complex systems. So we can play with that foi a little
bit. }ust imagine that you coulu cieate a city - eveiy one of these iueas has alieauy been
uone |somewheiej - you coulu cieate a city wheie natuie was neaiby, wheie eveiybouy in
the city coulu walk a few blocks to a paik, wheie chiluien weie playing in the uiban
stieams anu it was safe. Imagine a city wheie wilulife coulu navigate the uiban lanuscape.
Imagine that the entiie path of the iainuiop, fiom when it falls on youi ioof, to when it
aiiives at the iivei, becomes visible anu manifest. Imagine that we coulu see a woilu in
which oui wastes became soil, anu then became floweis, anu that wasn't hiuuen away in
some fai-off place out of sight anu out of minu. Anu even that oui sewage, even the wastes
fiom the toilets, became clean anu beautiful gaiuens, filleu with floweis anu wetlanus.
Imagine a city in which we coulu heai the sounus of natuie in these oases of quiet.
Now that's a kinu of ielationship to be establisheu between human beings anu the natuial
woilu, in the city, anu can only be ieally envisioneu now thiough the powei of the
imaginative "I" |eyej. But all of those iueas aie out theie, all of those iueas exist in some
place, in some city aiounu the woilu. Naybe they'ie not yet all put togethei, but those aie
the kinu of qualitative aspects which get at oui liveu expeiience, anu then we can have the
possibility of biinging those foith into some connecteu ielationship with natuie.
="/#*A12 Naik, you'ie evoking a lot of the inteiviews that we've heaiu so fai in the
confeience. I'm ieally making links between what you'ie saying goes on in a uesignei's
imagination with way back at the veiy fiist inteiview that I uiu with Bill Rees, who, as you
well know, is the cieatoi of the ecological footpiint theoiy anu application. Be now sees
that it's the qualities of humanness that aie ieally going to take us out of some of the
majoi challenges that we face, if not all of them. Anu being able to think in the futuie anu
have this imagination is a quality that he stiongly points to. So it's ieally like you'ie
evoking this as the essence of the uesign capacity that unueilies making what I call the
"human hive." The human hive means we'ie being totally effective, both with the aitefacts
that we cieate thiough uesign, anu also as looking, as you just uesciibeu, at the city as a
natuial system.
="/>2 I think that it's ieally woith noting that what you'ie up to, Naiilyn, anu what this
confeience is up to, in ieinventing the new opeiating system foi the city, is a iauical
notion. What it's also is an eminently achievable anu piactical iuea. So a lot of things in
veiy iecent histoiy we think of as not being piactical, oi not being possible. But imagine
that somewheie in the miuule of the 19
th
centuiy, theie weie no uiban paiks. No one hau
the iuea that having a paik in the miuule of the city woulu be a goou iuea. Anu then we hau
a whole movement - a woilu-wiue movement - of the uaiuen City. Anu within Su yeais,
theie aie uiban paiks in eveiy majoi city aiounu the woilu.
The same thing with oui highway system. You know in Su yeais, we tiansfoimeu the
entiie lanuscape of Noith Ameiica with unlimiteu access to oui state highway systems anu
cieateu the subuibs. So if we'ie looking at a Su-8u yeai time fiame foi tiansfoiming the
city, it takes just the kinu of iauical, imaginative iueas to catch on - to catch fiie. You know
that's the ieal possibility of what this whole confeience heie is up to. That's what excites
me.
="/#*A12 Well thank you foi making that obseivation, Naik. I wonuei foi oui auuience if
you actually fiameu this evolution of the whole uesign ethos. You show examples in youi
book. It is beautifully illustiateu. I mentioneu when I wiote the ieview of youi book I
founu it so beautiful that I coulun't beai to use my usual pen anu ink quotations on the
siue, so it's sitting iight besiue me, all "haiiy" with post-it notes, because I coulun't beai to
wiite in it. But foi oui auuience, coulu you take us thiough some examples of cities that
may come fiom tiauitional, mouein, post-mouein anu integial ways of thinking, so that
they coulu actually, foi themselves, get a moie specific pictuie of examples of such cities.
You coulu, maybe, just point out some of the aichitectuie oi some of the builuings they
might iecognize associateu with these woiluviews.
="/>2 In aichitectuie anu the histoiy of uesign of cities, theie aie uiffeient peiious, anu
theie aie levels of consciousness, you might say, that emeige at uiffeient peiious. But they
aien't uistinct anu limiteu to inuiviuual spans of yeais, oi even inuiviuual people, so that's
kinu of a long conveisation in oiuei to tease that out a bit.
It's woith saying that all of those uiffeient levels, the tiauitional, mouein, the post-mouein,
anu the integial, aie piesent at the same time. So we hau a ievival of neo-tiauitional
aichitectuie. If we look aiounu most univeisity campuses touay, theie aie veiy few
mouein builuings being built. Nost of the builuings have auapteu the style oi the
expiession of a time gone by. So they might be a collegiate uothic, as they weie when I was
woiking at Washington 0niveisity in St. Louis. They might be a moie of the classical style,
with uomes anu peuiments anu poiticos anu so foith.
So theie is a kinu of iomantic ievival going on at piesent. Anu you see a little bit of that in
some of the New 0ibanist communities, wheie they aie moie inteiesteu in an expiession
of the tiauitional town. If you think about any aichitectuie, fiom ancient uieece oi ancient
Rome oi Italian villas oi even the Renaissance - any of those kinus of ways of builuing, you
see histoiical oi neo-histoiical styles showing up in aichitectuie touay. That's a kinu of
view, a kinu of inuicatoi of a kinu of tiauitional woiluview.
Although touay what we see is a kinu of "wiappei" of that as a kinu of expiession. It's
placeu ovei the top of something that's essentially mouein constiuction. So it's iaie that
anyone builus something that's neo-classical in a full masoniy constiuction. Nouein
aichitects you might be familiai with, people like Nies van uei Rohe, oi the Fainswoith
Bouse in Chicago is a kinu of classic example. Theie aie vaiious kinus of tienus of
moueinism in this countiy. Two of my favoiites aie Fiank Lloyu Wiight anu Louis Kahn.
In the post-mouein |mouej you might be most familiai with an aichitect like Nichael
uiaves, oi the contempoiaiy aichitect Fiank uehiy, both of which you woulu ielate to one
of the stianus of the post-mouein woiluview.
Then touay you can begin to see vaiious kinus of integial expiessions. In many ways I
think that in the 0ibanist movement is a kinu of leauing euge integial appioach, in the
sense that they aie using the best of the tiauitional ways of thinking about cities anu
towns, combineu with some of the valuable mouein appioaches, but thiowing out the
mouein appioaches that uon't woik. At the same time they aie beginning to be integiateu
anu be sensitive to cultuial anu enviionmental issues which tenu to show up in the post-
mouein oi pluialist woiluview.
So putting all of those togethei in the same kinu of constiuction is ieally one of the
hallmaiks of the integial level oi woiluview. 0n the aichitectuial stage, maybe one of my
favoiites that I woulu put into that categoiy woulu be the Austialian aichitect ulenn
Nuicutt, who is one of the winneis of the Piitzkei Piize, which is one of the highest woilu
piizes foi aichitectuie. Anu I say that because he's using a kinu of mouein expiession, but
at the same time is sensitive to anu employing many of the aspects of the veinaculai,
tiauitional language of those in Austialia, anu is just a highly sensitive, capable aichitect in
uealing with the subtlety of the site anu the enviionment, anu ieally woiking with all of
the quauiants of expeiiences, to cultuies, to the technology. So that's a biief iun-thiough it,
I guess, in a few minutes.
="/#*A12 Yes thanks Naik. I'm suie many people will be thinking, I wonuei wheie my
favoiite aichitect fits in. We'll leave that as a soit of "tension with intention."
="/>2 Naybe I'll just finish up that question |I was iesponuing toj. I was saying that cities
|appeaij even moie complex when using some kinu of integial analysis. Because they
uevelop ovei such long peiious of time. So I think it's almost bettei to look foi examples of
what woiks in uiffeient cities. The iueal of having put togethei many, many uiffeient
appioaches - you might think of being as the fully integial expiession - we'ie piobably
still waiting foi that to occui |natuiallyj. But that uoesn't mean theie aien't gieat
examples.
I iemembei 2u yeais ago in the city of Koluing, Benmaik, wheie they hau taken the
inteiioi of a laige Euiopean block with foui oi five stoiey housing - apaitments aiounu
the euge. They took what was a paiking lot anu tuineu it into a paik. Anu insiue of that
paik was a soit of jewel, a solai pyiamiu, that was a sewage tieatment plant. So they hau a
soit of constiucteu wetlanu insiue of theie anu they weie giowing meuicinal heibs anu
tomatoes anu |piouucingj puiifieu watei anu outsiue theie was a wetlanu. People coulu
come out to the sewage tieatment plant anu enjoy a picnic! That was an amazing sight.
Anu then theie aie places like village Bomes in Califoinia, which I think uates fiom the
late 197us wheie Su peicent of the lanu was tuineu ovei to piouuction as a completely
solai anu biochemically |contiolleuj uesign of a subuiban neighbouihoou. But at the same
time they hau oichaius anu common aieas anu community gaiuens. It was a completely
piouuctive lanuscape. All aiounu the woilu theie aie gieat examples. They aie easy to finu
nowauays, with oui online access.
="/#*A12 That is a veiy goou way to move on to a question|that links Stiuctuial
Intelligence to Cultuial Intelligencej. Because yesteiuay we weie exploiing cultuie anu
oui thought leauei foi the uay was }ean Bouston. 0f couise she has visiteu so many cities
that the stoiies that she gave weie actually giounueu in many paiticulai cities. We got
thiough hei anu oui othei piesenteis yesteiuay, this image of a city being full of stoiies.
The city itself is a stoiy anu eveiy peison's stoiy emeiges anu manifests in uiffeient ways.
We look at uesign anu the manifestation of a stoiy, a woiluview, a set of values that go
along with it. Then we can see - what fascinates me in looking at cities as systems - is that
the manifestation of the uevelopmental, evolutionaiy stiata that the city has gone thiough
is actually a kinu of a histoiy that we can see manifest thiough aichitectuie anu uesign. It
can ieminu us how to appieciate those uiffeient values that we still have, especially in the
oluei city of the woilu wheie we can see them all alive aiounu us.
I notice that my aesthetic iesponse to say, a small gatheiing place, as one of oui piesenteis
spoke of yesteiuay, is uiffeient that when I go to a Fiank uehiy piouuction. Theie, I just go
kinu of like jaw uiopping W0W! Bow uo I feel theie. Then I go to one of the aichitects that
has always impiesseu me - in auuition to Fiank Lloyu Wiight - Chiistophei Alexanuei. I
just contemplate how he showeu me to think about St. Naik's Squaie in venice. This is a
place that has centuiies captuieu in the aichitectuie theie thiough uiffeient eias. So I
thank you foi acknowleuging that the city is veiy complex iight now.
="/>2 You aie exactly iight about the powei of the stoiy in the city anu the powei of the
stoiy that each builuing tells. That is the lowei left peispective that I saiu that I was having
such a haiu time to giapple with. In wiiting the book anu in ueveloping my own
unueistanuing in uesign, even though I've been woiking with it foi Su yeais now |it's still
a challengej.
That's why I am so inteiesteu in the connection between the actual physicality anu getting
the systems iight - in say, maybe, a neighboihoou wheie eveiy builuing can captuie the
sun, anu eveiy builuing has access to the winu, anu eveiy builuing can see enough of the
sky to light itself.
Then pulling that back into an expiession that makes the city natively a place. So that we
have a sense of a bio-cultuial iegion that's the teiiitoiy of oui life. So the way that the city
is manifesting is, in pait, a piouuct of that stiuctuie anu function that's aiounu it, that's in
the location ielateu to its bioiegion. Theiefoie what's natuial about that "oiuei" is that the
place can be maue manifest anu consciously move foiwaiu. We can hiue, conceal, oi we
can ieveal anu expiess the functions anu the stiuggle of the city. I aigue foi the lattei - foi
expiessing anu giving some visibility to what natuie is, anu how we think that we'ie
ielateu to that natuie.
="/#*A12 That ieminus me of an inteiview I hau befoie the confeience staiteu with
Richaiu Registei, who cieateu the whole iuea of the Ecocity, anu foi Su oi 4u yeais has
been tiying to get that iuea spieau thioughout the woilu. Be talks about his expeiience of
tiying to uaylight stieams. But he expiesseu his fiustiation at the iesistance to being able
to uo that.
So I wonueieu, Naik, if we coulu biing oui conveisation into a place, befoie we go to the
auuience, wheie you coulu talk about how you woik with youi stuuents to actually give
them a sense of the kinu of iesponsibility that they take in being uesigneis. Bow uo you
biing in the ielevance of the left-hanu quauiants of expeiience anu aesthetic anu the
cultuial meaning making. Is this something that you've founu ways that open those uoois
foi them.
="/>2 Richaiu Registei - he was a ieal inspiiation to me in his oiiginal Ecocities book. At
0C Beikeley, as a young giauuate I hoppeu on a bus anu went uown to San Fiancisco to
the fiist inteinational Ecocities confeience. Be is ieally an example of someone who has
set a cleai intention foi himself, anu even been unieasonable in following thiough his
intention. I think he's just a gieat inspiiation to all of us.
That's ieally how I look at the answei to youi question. What I uo anu what I have my
stuuents uo, is set a cleai intention that's big enough to call us foith to be something
gieatei than we oi they aie useu to being. Foi instance on the wall of my ieseaich stuuio
theie's a sign that says: :=3 A$ '&$9 -, #=$ 73,,-.-(-#?9 7'&#"$&,=-7 '"; #$'4A3&B ;$;-8'#$;
#3 .&$'B #=&3+%= -" '&8=-#$8#+&'( $;+8'#-3"C
So that's the kinu of big possibility that I anu all the people who aie woiking in oui lab tiy
to live into. We'ie up to something big, anu that helps us to put in oiuei the specific things
that we uo. So I ieally challenge all my stuuents to set out an intention foi themselves.
They have all this semestei been woiking alieauy in the setting of intention foi
themselves about what they want to accomplish uuiing theii next semestei. Then latei on,
we'll look at |howj they set that intention, foi what they might want to uo latei on in theii
caieei.
Insiue that intention, we can always cieate ouiselves as some kinu of contiibution in some
specific ways. It occuis to me that what we'ie ieally up to. I think at some point in auult
life, what ieally tuins us on, what we ieally want in oui heaits, is to make a contiibution.
Insiue that laigei intention, that's biggei than we aie, theie's some gap wheie we can live,
anu that calls us foith - calls foith whatevei oui woik is. I think eveiybouy has some
amazing contiibution to offei. That's ieally|one of the keyj things that the integial mouel
has taught me.
It's also one of the things that's a kinu of holaichic stiuctuie in the lowei-iight peispective,
|wheiej you see that eveiything is impoitant, that eveiy soit of niche oi possibility exists
up anu uown the scale. |It appliesj if you'ie inteiesteu in tackling laigei questions, oi if
you'ie inteiesteu in tackling smallei questions. Foi me, I'm inteiesteu in woiking on
uesign tools; sustainable uesign, anu then mapping them out in that teiiitoiy, anu so on.
Foi you, Naiilyn, you'ie woiking with a gianu intention anu a pioject that's of gieat scope,
which I think is laigei than I woulu be able to uo. I was thinking about that touay. It takes
an amazing peispective to be able to integiate all the uiffeient viewpoints anu people anu
uiveisity that you'ie woiking with.
="/#*A12 Thank you Naik. Now tell me - you have geneially commenceu, youiself, on
cieating an integial uesign theoiy. I ieally know that's something you consiuei that you
aie living on the euges of, moving foiwaiu. I think that oui woik is ieally quite integiateu
togethei.
Peihaps I coulu lanu ieally on what you just saiu, in iegaius to how uesigneis can think
about wheie anu how they shoulu appioach theii woik. A piece of auvice I give my own
stuuents when they askeu me, "What is my puipose." Anu I say, you'ie going to know
what youi puipose is when you uiscovei the inteisection of youi gieatest joy, anu the
woilu's gieatest neeu. I think that's at the heait of what you'ie talking about - how people
know wheie theii uesign contiibution comes in.
We both know Bon Beck's woik, anu he has a wonueiful uesign equation that I think also
kinu of captuies what we'ie talking about - it helps uesigneis to know what anu wheie to
stait. So the question is: D3A ;3$, :DE9 -"#$%&'((? ;$,-%" 23& :DEF9 23& :D>1 7+&73,$9
A=$&$G I just think that youi book anu youi own integial piactice captuies the zone of
allowing uesigneis to exploie that question on many uiffeient levels.
="/>2 Thank you Naiilyn. 0ne of the things I think we neeu to say befoie we leave is that
we'ie using the woius "uesign" anu "uesignei," anu I woulu use those in a veiy bioau anu
libeial way. Foi instance, one of Sim van uei Ryn's |piinciplesj, in his ecological uesign
piinciples is: $5$&?3"$ -, ' ;$,-%"$&. That may sounu stiange, but it's actually tiue touay,
both in oui puichasing powei (because we puichase uesign) - we have houses uesigneu
anu built foi us - but also because the woilu of city uesign is incieasingly paiticipatoiy.
Nany hunuieus, if not thousanus, of people in the city have the oppoitunity, in theii
neighboihoous, in theii new city plans, anu so foith, to ieally go out anu paiticipate anu
think like uesigneis, anu make theii contiibution in that way. So theie aie lots of
oppoitunities in othei ways that you can think of also, wheie it's just pait of oui BNA.
Piioi to the 19
th
centuiy, eveiyone almost, except foi the supei-iich, was involveu in
constiucting theii own homes. So it's not something that's ieally foieign to us. 0ne of the
things |Chiistopheij Alexanuei talks about is that we've sepaiateu so fai |apaitj the
piofessional uesignei fiom the peison constiucting, fiom the peison who's occupying |a
builuingj. I think in teims of tiansfoiming the city, we have to take back some of that
inuiviuual iesponsibility to think about uesign anu be uesigneis.
="/#*A12 I think so anu I think maybe what I woulu like to ask you to uo befoie we ask foi
questions fiom the auuience is, woulu you minu iepeating what the sign on youi wall
says. I think that's a goou segue foi the next pait of oui uialogue.
="/>2 :=3 A$ '&$9 -, #=$ 73,,-.-(-#?9 7'&#"$&,=-7 '"; #$'4A3&B ;$;-8'#$; #3 .&$'B #=&3+%=
-" '&8=-#$8#+&'( $;+8'#-3"C So that's the possibility that we set heie in oui ieseaich lab foi
ouiselves.
="/#*A12 It is a possibility that we have cieateu as a fiame foi the whole confeience -
something that's iauically optimistic, anu calling foith, as you say, the uesign anu the
uesignei in eveiyone. Yesteiuay oui piesenteis exploiing cultuie saiu: eveiyone is a
stoiytellei, eveiyone is an aitist. We have come into an eia wheie we can claim that, but
we'ie often uetacheu fiom that, anu uon't see that in ouiselves anymoie. Thank you so
much foi evoking the uesignei in us all.
="/#*A12 Eiic, I call on you to shaie some questions fiom the auuience so we coulu acquiie
some moie of Naik's wisuom.
D/#+2 uoing back something you weie talking about, Naik, ielateu to the tiauitional,
mouein anu post-mouein woiluviews anu value systems, anu how that has shapeu
aichitectuie, foi instance on a college campus. What I'm cuiious about is, you iefeience a
scale of about Su yeais, anu how things change in that speeu. But it seems that complexity
is continuing to acceleiate, anu oui woilu life conuitions aie speeuing up evei moie
iapiuly. So I uon't know if we necessaiily have those Su yeai spans to woik with in the
same way that we might have a centuiy ago. I'm just wonueiing how you uesign in the face
of acceleiating complexity. When you have to level existing stiuctuies anu stait ovei.
="/>2 0ne way to think about the |builtj woilu is that it opeiates at multiple timescales
simultaneously. The city is the laigest anu the most iesistant |built systemj to change. It
contains all scales anu timefiames that we have. Foi instance if you go to the oluest pait of
any city, you'll finu ioau patteins anu piopeity anu subuivision patteins that existeu fiom
Suu oi 4uu, oi uepenuing on how olu the city is, even 1,uuu yeais ago. So the oluest pait of
lowei Nanhattan still has the piopeity uivisions fiom the time of its oiiginal founuing.
We like to say in aichitectuie that the site is eteinal. Noving those piopeity lines aiounu
is almost impossible. The ioau stays wheie it is, once it's built. Insiue of that theie aie
stiuctuial cycles - foi instance the stiuctuie of the builuings that lasts 4uu yeais. Anu on
the othei enu of the timefiame is the paint on the walls, the caipet on the floois, the
seivices anu the finishes. Those, let's say in an office builuing, have a lifecycle of foui oi
five yeais. Somewheie in the miuule is the mechanical system, which might have a 1S oi
2u yeai life cycle. The winuows might have an 8u yeai life cycle. So we ieally have to look
at what aie the scales that we'ie opeiating at, anu what aie the timefiames that that
paiticulai subsystem has foi its own uuiability. What we'ie seeing is that theie's a natuial
cycle to the way in which builuings have a life anu a ueath.
So if we look at, say in the 0niteu States, at the futuie of builuings, between now anu 2uSu,
something like 7u peicent of all the builuing stock in the countiy will be eithei new oi
ienovateu in that time. So that's a timefiame in which it's possible foi aichitectuie to
essentially to halt the C02 piouuction of the countiy, simply by making builuings that aie
caibon neutial.
So theie's a whole movement in the countiy iight now (anu also in Canaua) foi looking at
incieasing eneigy stanuaius anu loweiing the use of fossil fuels anu moving towaius, by
2uSu, all new builuings being constiucteu as caibon neutial. So that's the kinu of
timefiame that we can look at. But it iequiies that each inuiviuual take some ieal
iesponsibility, anu iecognize that eveiything that they'ie uoing is pait of some laigei
pattein that's laigei than oui own inuiviuual actions.
D/#+2 What aie the qualities of stiuctuies that allow foi the flexibility foi evei-moie-iapiu
change.
="/>2 I uon't know the answei to that question fiom the outset. But my sense about it is
that we'ie ieally looking at uiffeient tienus. We'ie ieally looking at uiffeient kinus of
systems. So what's changing iapiuly is a cultuie; what's changing iapiuly is the woilu of
electionics anu the woilu of communications.
What's not changing iapiuly is the woilu of biicks, is the woilu of conciete, the woilu of
woou, the woilu of geneial existence that we live in on the planet. What's not changing is
the fact that we have solai eneigy aiiiving on the planet eveiy uay that can fuel oui entiie
existence, if we uo it intelligently.
So we ieally have to make a connection between the things that aie not changing anu that
aie cyclical, anu they'ie essentially the same eveiywheie on the planet |as well asj the
things that aie iapiuly changing. So this came home foi me when Susanne |my wifej anu I
visiteu Italy this summei. We weie staying in a builuing whose stiuctuie was fiom the
1Suus in a little town calleu 0iieto. A beautiful little Italian town. Anu it hau insiue of the
builuings, essentially, a mouein life - but the stiuctuie of the place itself hau not changeu
in piobably 4uu yeais.
So while cultuie is changing - people weie walking aiounu with cell phones, they hau the
Inteinet - theie weie ceitain aspects of that stiuctuie that weie funuamentally still
effective because they met funuamental human expeiiential anu psychological neeus that
weie still piesent, because human scale still matteieu. Anu we walk upiight, so we have
the ielationship of the lanuscape that's uiiven by oui expeiience of giavity. We have eyes -
that hasn't changeu - so oui expeiience of light is the same as it was 2,uuu yeais ago. So
theie aie lots of things that |connectj the human being anu the cultuie that exist in the
natuial enviionment. You just have to woik with the same kinus of piinciples that have
been piesent foi 2,uuu yeais.
In some way the uieek villages that weie able to captuie solai eneigy foi eveiy city have
not been equaleu. So we can go back to the thiiu centuiy BC anu see that theie's moie
intelligence embouieu in the stiuctuie of a uieek city than theie is in any city in the 0niteu
States touay. So we ieally have to look at "tianscenuing anu incluuing" |stiuctuial qualities
anu complexitiesj. While we'ie evolving, while we'ie moving foiwaiu in some aieas, anu
on some lines, we also ieally have to go back anu look at what ieally funuamentally woiks,
in anu about the tiauitional way of builuing, anu about the woilu that was stiuctuieu
befoie the auvent of fossil fuels that we'll buin up ovei the next centuiy.
="/#*A12 I'm thinking about someone in oui auuience who's inteiesteu in iegeneiative
uesign - uo you think you coulu tell us what you think iegeneiative uesign is.
="/>2 Regeneiative uesign usually iefeis to something that's beyonu sustainability. So if
you imagine that a kinu of zeio balance, even if it's uynamic balance, oi an annual balance,
oi something like that, that constitutes a ceitain measuie of sustainability, that says you
aie piouucing as much eneigy as you'ie consuming. Let's say you've cieateu a builuing oi
a city in which you aien't uoing any uamage foi the futuie. The iegeneiative viewpoint
woulu say that we'ie actually |aiming foij gieatei uegiees of ecological health, oi gieatei
uegiees of systemic well-being. Foi instance, a builuing, insteau of being a net consumei,
might be net piouucei; a city, insteau of piouucing a ceitain amount of waste that has to
go "out theie," it might be consuming its own waste, anu in the piocess of consuming that,
piouuces useful piouuct - foi instance, compost, anu tuining that compost into living
things that clean the aii.
So that basic notion that we have, as Bill NcBonough says, that the funuamental appioach
that most of us have on the enviionment is: "Let's uo less bau stuff." But we want to go
beyonu ieuucing impacts, anu go to the othei siue |of the equationj to piouuce gieatei
anu gieatei levels of integiity foi oui health anu well-being - both foi people anu the
natuial system. Ny favoiite woik on this is a couple of books by the lanuscape aichitect
}ohn T. Lyle - one is calleu H$%$"$&'#-5$ /$,-%" 23& *+,#'-"'.($ /$5$(374$"#C Lyle was veiy
inteiesteu in this veiy question of how you make lanuscape uo things like the natuial
lanuscape, anu yet accomplish all the neeus anu seivices that human beings have - to
uiink clean watei, eat goou oiganic foou, bieathe clean aii, have sheltei anu so foith. All
those things can be pioviueu by a system that's a kinu of meiging of what we think of as a
human system, anu what we think of as a natuial system, into a laigei iuea of the human
ecosystem.
="/#*A12 Beie is anothei question fiom the auuience. Can you talk about Stiuctuial
Intelligence anu mateiials anu technology. Aie we going to be able to SB piint oui
builuings.
="/>2 That's a iapiuly changing anu emeiging aiea within builuing anu within
aichitectuie. Theie aie vaiious kinus of evaluation systems anu so foith to keep up with
how gieen a mateiial is, oi how gieen a builuing is. You can go ueep into the technical
aspects of that. 0i, some of the geneial piinciples that most people aie piobably familiai
with aie: to look at a mateiial in teims of wheie its oiigin is, in teims of enviionmental
impact. value mateiials that aie available locally, anu aie not tianspoiteu veiy fai. We
tenu to value mateiials that have moie iecycleu content, oi aie, themselves, maue of
ienewable mateiials. Paiticulaily mateiials that aie biologically baseu anu that giow
iapiuly - those aie known as iapiuly ienewable mateiials, which also have the auueu
benefit of sequesteiing a ceitain amount of caibon in the piocess.
We look at the toxicity of the mateiials to filtei them foi the vaiious kinus of nasty things
that can be involveu in aichitectuial mateiials. We also look at the kinus of mateiials that
go into the inteiiois of builuings, so that theii toxicities uon't enu up polluting the inuooi
aii anu make us sick, anu so foith.
Theie's a whole complex iange of issues theie. It's a tough one when you tiy to measuie
that out scientifically. But I have a biothei who's involveu in social psychology anu
especially a fielu calleu "juugment anu uecision making." I've askeu him a numbei of times,
give me a methou foi how to ueciue all of these things. Anu his answei is basically, you can
get a pietty long uistance towaius the ultimate iight answei by having ' methou. So
uepenuing on the complexity, oi time anu oppoitunity someone has to invest in choosing
mateiials, having some methou. anu if you can uepenu on else that has uone that
evaluation foi you, you'ie going to make a lot bettei uecisions, usually, than if you uon't
have a methou at all. While people aigue about the uetails of the methous, they'ie ieally
aiguing about the last five oi ten peicent of the accuiacy in making uecisions. Fiom my
stanupoint, if you look at connecting back to the quauiants, these aie all questions that
aiise in the uppei-iight, in teims of the mateiial effectiveness that we might have in
making those uesign choices.
What's ieally inteiesting to me is what mateiials feel like. What is oui peisonal expeiience
of living with ceitain kinus of mateiials, anu also with the kinu of authenticity that's
possible in some mateiials anu not in otheis. I think if we began to look aiounu anu feel
the uiffeience between woiking on a uesk that's maue of woou, anu woiking on a uesk
that's maue of a plastic laminate with a pictuie of woou, howevei effective that mouein
pictuie of the woou is on the laminate, in my expeiience it's a completely uiffeient kinu of
expeiience of being with the uesigneu object.
I think we finu the same thing in cities. It's a veiy uiffeient expeiience walking acioss a
Euiopean paiking aiea with packeu giavel anu tiees inteimittently spaceu, veisus
walking acioss the paiking lot at the neighboihoou Taiget heie in Knoxville, acioss a veiy
long expanse of veiy hot asphalt. So those mateiials choices aie incieuibly impoitant to
the whole pictuie, both in teims of the peifoimance of cities, anu in teims of oui own
expeiience anu value, about whethei oui lives aie filleu with quality, oi not.
="/#*A12 Thanks Naik. That ieally iesonates with me. As I think about even how you
mentioneu eailiei Bill NcBonough thinks about ciaule-to-ciaule, anu actually was one of
the fiist, with his paitnei Nichael Biaungait, actually looking at mateiials fiom theii
initial choice anu useu iight thiough to theii completeu cycle, back into the ietuin to
elements, iight uown to a biochemical peispective. I was always fascinateu by Chiistophei
Alexanuei, who askeu the question of his stuuents, using salt shakeis as an example.
Which one of them feels moie alive to you. This sense of oui own aliveness, embouieu
iesponse to mateiials anu uesign elements, is something that we neeu to ieawaken
ouiselves to.
="/>2 I agiee with you, anu iecommenu the book I&';($ #3 I&';($ to anyone who has
questions about the mateiials, lifecycles, anu the impoitant uistinction between natuial
ecocycles anu technical ecocycles. Theie's basically two kinus of mateiials out in the woilu.
Those that can be uegiaueu in biological piocesses, anu those that can't. The ones that
opeiate in the technical ecocycle we shoulu enueavoi to keep those in the cycle
inuefinitely, so that when we mine the aluminum out of the giounu, it stays out of the
giounu foievei. As opposeu to a biouegiauable mateiial which can ietuin back to the
eaith anu be absoibeu by the natuial sinks anu piocesses.
="/#*A12 That speaks to me about the iesponsibility we take as cieatois, iealizing theie
may be unexpecteu consequences. When we cieate aluminum, as an example, then we
have a iesponsibility foi actually following its life foiwaiu, not just thiowing it away.
Theie's no "out theie" out theie anymoie.
="/>2 |chucklingj Theie's no "away."
D/#+2 I heai you making impoitant uistinctions, like the thinking piocess that uistinguishes
between biouegiauable mateiials, foi instance, oi ones that have an extenueu life that
uoesn't uegiaue. That "tianscenu anu incluue" way of thinking that's pait of integial is
something we ieally want to biing foiwaiu in this confeience. I'm cuiious if you can speak
to moie key uistinctions, fiaming, ways of thinking about things that can help us moie
foiwaiu with a moie integial lens.
="/>2 0ne of my favoiite ways of thinking about it, since the theme foi touay anu this
week is to look at the stiuctuies anu systems in the lowei-iight peispective, is that it's a
veiy visible woilu that we have aiounu us. So we can think about the objects in oui woilu,
fiom winuows to cities, as being on a kinu of continuum of holaichic stiuctuie. When I'm
looking at a question about a winuow, I'm asking what's the laigei system that that
winuow paiticipates in. Let's say that's a wall, oi faaue. That faaue means one thing if
you place it in Niami, anothei thing if you place it in Faiibanks, Alaska. Bow you inteipiet
what it uoes anu what it means is veiy uiffeient in those two contexts. But if we continue
up |the holaichyj, you can think of a ioom as being composeu of a seiies of builuing
systems like walls, ioofs, floois. You can think of a builuing as being composeu of an
aiiangement, oi seiies of oiganizations of iooms. Then if you move up to the level of the
city, you can begin to think about inuiviuual elements at the uiban scale. Let's say a stieet,
a squaie, a builuing oi set of builuings. Then you can combine those basic elements into
patteins that make fabiics, say the fabiic of a neighboihoou. Anu so on.
So that, as a kinu of funuamental stiuctuie, suggests that eveiything that we uesign, eveiy
pioblem that we can look at, has a context. It has a laigei whole in which it's a pait of. The
uesign question ieally begins with. anu one of my colleagues, Stiouu Watson, put this
veiy well. I useu to take him uown to Chattanooga, wheie he was woiking with city uesign
theie. Chattanooga hau a kinu of ienaissance unuei Stiouu's uesign leaueiship. Be'u say to
stuuents, "you aichitects, you think it's all about the builuing. You think it's youi peisonal
playgiounu to be expiessive with. You can uo that, but the fiist question foi you as a
uesignei ieally is, 'what uoes youi builuing have to contiibute to the pattein of the stieet.
What uoes you builuing have to contiibute to youi neighboihoou. What uoes this thing
that you'ie uesigning on youi site have to offei, completing a laigei iuea foi the city as a
whole.'" Be was asking the stuuents to look at seveial laigei ciicles of scale, above the
thing that they weie actually uesigning. I think this happens eveiywheie.
Foi instance, two blocks away fiom my stuuio theie's a little commeicial stiip that we
actually call "The Stiip." It's on Cumbeilanu Avenue. Theie's one little elegant iow of
builuings that aie built up on the siuewalk anu have stieet tiees in the fiont, anu they'ie
eaily 2u
th
centuiy, built out of masoniy, with nice stoie fionts. You walk uown the stieet,
anu theie's a kinu of pleasant expeiience; it feels alive, you can see what's in the stoies,
anu you feel goou about walking in anu getting youiself a beei at the local bai. But that
only happens foi one block. Since I've been at the univeisity heie, piobably ten oi twelve
yeais, my estimate is about half the builuings on that stieet have been iebuilt oi majoily
ienovateu. Yet no one has actually saiu, "hey, theie's a pattein which, if they can uo it on
that block, anu I uiu it on my block, then maybe the next peison woulu come along anu
help to complete that pattein." Insteau what we have is a seiies of little fiee-stanuing,
inuepenuent fast-foou joints that aie suiiounueu by a ciicle foi the uiive-thiough, anu the
iest of the site is completely taken up with paiking. So theie's a kinu of mis-fit between
seeing that theie's a possibility foi an inuiviuual action, which ovei a peiiou of only a few
yeais woulu actually auu up to cieate an entiiely uiffeient kinu of qualitative expeiience,
anu an entiiely uiffeient kinu of ieally piactical anu functional oiuei at the same time. So
that's one of the stiuctuies, just to see the woilu as a seiies of nesteu, holaichic systems,
nesteu systems within systems, in which eveiything is a pait, anu eveiything is a whole.
When we'ie uesigning something, we look to the laigei scale anu ask, what's the whole,
what's the pattein in which this paiticipates, anu to which my action as an inuiviuual oi as
an ownei, might contiibute.
E(,62 Bi Naik. I'm a piofessional plannei, city uesignei, that's the scale I'm woiking at.
I've noticeu that folks like us aie showing up moie anu moie in oui piofessions. What
peicentage woulu you estimate we aie, among uesign piofessionals. Anu seconu, how uo
you see piactices of piofessionals evolving to accommouate uesigneis in all quauiants.
="/>2 uieat questions. I'u have to give a wilu guess about the peicentage. 0ne of the
things woith noting is that people who aie natuially attiacteu to uesign anu planning aie
thinking at a veiy integiateu anu integial level in geneial. Whethei oi not they've auapteu
the mouel, theie's a ceitain cognitive complexity that people who aie aichitects, lanuscape
aichitects, planneis, uiban uesigneis, they natuially uevelop those capacities. I think it
may uepenu on what you mean by "people like us." I think on ceitain lines, what gives me
hope foi the uesign fielus is that, geneially, they'ie aie veiy intelligent anu smait people,
capable of giappling with, anu who aie at least willing to attempt to giapple with,
completely unsolvable pioblems. In the sense that theie is no iational methouology by
which you can solve a pioblem with a thousanu vaiiables. Anu that's just the builuing,
with at least a thousanu vaiiables. A city - just multiply that by seveial oiueis of
magnituue. So I uon't know, ieally, what the answei to that is. I think that cognitively,
these people may be 7u-8u% integial thinkeis. In teims of values anu woiluviews, I woulu
guess it's maybe uouble the geneial population. So oveiall we might have 1u-12%
uesigneis who aie woiking at an integial level of piactice; that's a wilu guess. I think that
planneis, in paiticulai, aie piobably moie uieen, moie pluialistic in geneial than
aichitects. I uo finu lanuscape aichitects to be highly uevelopeu in teims of theii ecological
knowleuge, anu people like aichitects to be a bit moie foimalist anu in some ways not
ieally tuneu in neaily as much to the notion that the lanu might be a living system.
In teims of youi seconu questions ie: the piactices that might biing uesigneis foiwaiu, I
uon't know. That's a big, open-enueu question. I think in some ways the piactices one
might uo to uevelop as an integial uesignei aie not so unlike in geneial the piactices one
might uo to move foiwaiu in any kinu of integial uevelopment. Which is simply cieating
some kinu of integial tiansfoimative piactice that might engage the multiple peispectives
in some kinu of sequence, on a iegulai basis; anu in paiticulai, the ones that maybe we
feel less familiai with.
Biu you have any iueas, Beth, about what kinus of piactices those might be. 0i can you
shaie any expeiience fiom youi own self in uoing that.
E(,62 Foi my own self, I have an integial tiansfoimative piactice that has mutateu ovei
the yeais. I watch my piofession; I'm also the piesiuent of my piofessional association,
anu the neeu foi theie to be an awful woik on self, inuiviuually, anu ouiselves as a
collective, to be able to toleiate a laigei anu wiuei paiticipation fiom othei quauiants of
the city expeiience in actually uesigning anu co-cieating the city. Some piofessionals can
enu up in a iathei naiiow peispective of theii iole as an "expeit," anu finu it veiy uifficult
to let that go. I'm wonueiing what successes you've seen in youi piofessional piactice anu
teaching, wheie the piofessionals aie able to ielax anu sit in anu tiust the confiuence anu
co-cieativity of the wiuei city, client, stakeholueis, whatevei language you want to use.
="/>2 I think it helps if theie's a facilitatoi oi leauei in the piocess that can mouel that. I
think a lot of people aie willing to step out of theii ioles if they'ie challengeu anu given the
possibility. 0ne of those ways of moueling is a piactice of "ueep listening." 0ne of the ways
I've thought about that, anu have been taught to think about that, I guess, is to ieally
"listen foi the golu." Listen foi what it is that the othei peison may have to offei. In fact,
actually listening foi the commitment that's unueineath whatevei it is they'ie saying.
Paiticulaily if it's a complaint. In public piocesses, anu often in inteiuisciplinaiy teams,
people take on the ioles of being the complaineis. If we can tuin that aiounu anu say, "0K,
I heai you. Anu unueineath that, I'm heaiing that you'ie ieally committeu to something."
Then we can kinu of tease out what theii ieal conceins aie. Anu we can have some
ielationship to those conceins. Anu give them some voice. Anu then they'ie moie willing
to paiticipate, I guess.
I think theie's a lot of piactices, in geneial, that aie necessaiy foi evolution of oui
inuiviuual awaieness. I think the uifficult pait of that is that it takes so long. So even in
school, let's say in my case, I might have a stuuent foi 14 weeks. I'm not inteiesteu, oi
attempting to tiy to move them up a level in theii awaieness. I'm basically tiying to woik
with wheie they aie. Anu hope that ovei the entiie couise of theii foui oi five yeais in
aichitectuie school, that they will have uevelopeu in many ways. But the oveiall iesult
sometimes comes up much latei.
="/#*A12 Naik, what you aie saying aiounu piofessionals iesonates with what we leaineu
fiom oui Cultuial Piactitioneis yesteiuay. They talkeu about the ueep neeu to piactice
Listening, anu also the Respect of 0theis. That's what I heai you talking about with youi
stuuents, that as in all integial piactice, anu in Integial Intelligence in the city, is, we must
allow people to be who they aie, wheie they aie. Peihaps as uesigneis, oui iesponsibility
is to cieate the habitats foi theii next natuial step, oi theii next natuial capability as
uesigneis. So this is a beautiful place to concluue oui uialogue touay. Thank you so much
Naik foi shaiing youi ueep insights about Integial Sustainable Besign anu how it biings
such a life giving view to the stiuctuies of city opeiating systems.

1

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56", "14 76(/( "/( 7( #89*(8(1,#10 %,/:+,:/"*;#1)/"%,/:+,:/"* #1,(**#0(1+(<
Speakeis: Naileen Kaptein anu Alex von 0ost
Bost: Beth Sanueis
Septembei 1S, 2u12
="/*((1 >"9,(#1? a foimei theatiical uesignei anu inteiioi aichitect
is the initiatoi anu catalyst of EvA Lanxmeei. Naileen, seeking a moie
sustainable way of builuing housing in uiban aieas, cieateu stiong
paitneiships among (lanuscape) aichitects, consultants, futuie
inhabitants. In 1994 she founueu the EvA Founuation anu founu in the
city of Culemboig a ueuicateu paitnei foi the uevelopment of an
ecological housing uistiict, baseu on the integial EvA piinciples. EvA
Lanxmeei's Suu houses (built fiom 1999 to 2u1u) has become a high quality,
enviionmentally fiienuly neighboihoou that incoipoiates many of the piinciples of eco-
towns. Its piincipal oiiginality is the constant paiticipation of (futuie) inhabitants
who weie incluueu in a cieative uesigning piocess with all othei expeits: fiom top-uown
to bottom-up. EvA Lanxmeei is now iegaiueu as a mouel in Euiope by Eneigie-Cits anu
in Fiance. EvA Lanxmeei anu Naileen (who iesiues theie) aie iecognizeu as inteinational
iefeients, iegulaily visiteu by aichitects, uibanists, uevelopeis, futuiists anu
activists inteiesteu in sustainable uevelopment.
@*(A B"1 .C%, is a city plannei, foimeily with the Netheilanus new city
of Almeie. Be co-uevelopeu with Almeie stakeholueis, anu aichitect,
William NcBonough, the Almeie Piinciples, which set out the piinciples
foi an oiganic city baseu on NcBonough's ciaule-to-ciaule fiamewoik.
Alex has since moveu to noithein Bollanu anu is now the stiategic
spatial uesignei foi the Piovince of Bienthe, NL. Alex is also co-cieating
with his paitnei, Kaien Rikkeis, Senioi Stiategy Auvisoi at Allianuei, an
innovative expeiiment in competitive co-uesign foi the Eneigetic City 2uSu - a pioject to
ieinvent eneigy piouuction anu use off the giiu in 2uSu.
(Note: A puf file about EvA Lanxmeei is posteu on the membei website heie. Also a link
to the Almeie Piinciples anu Eneigetic City 2uSu uiscusseu below).
D(,62 I am ieally cuiious touay, I have a question foi both of you whethei it's about EvA
Lanxmeei oi Eneigetic City 2uSu, how we can ieally cieate a civic enviionment foi oui
cities that is life-sustaining foi us .
Naileen I'm going to touch base with you fiist anu specific to EvA Lanxmeei, tell us how
you - anu I know that you woikeu with a numbei of othei people - but how have you
uesigneu foi life-sustaining eneigy in the stiuctuies anu systems that you built in the
community.
="/*((12 EvA Lanxmeei. Well the pioject is complex as you know, so the uesign of this
whole |placej was an inteiactive piocess between the most ielevant paities anu as you
saiu alieauy we founu a municipality, as oui main paitnei, who maue this pioject possible
in the fiist place. But we hau a whole team of 1u uiffeient uisciplines anu people who
woikeu with us anu we oiganizeu a piocess that we uevelopeu in two yeais befoie the
builuing piocess staiteu. So it was an exciting time - it was a new plan in the Netheilanus
that uiun't exist befoie so we weie all kinu of in a pioneei state anu also finuing oui way to
uevelop anu implement oui goals which was fascinating - anu luckily also leu to a pioject
wheie we aie veiy happy. I myself also live heie anu enjoy it with all my neighbois.
D(,62 Who aie all the paitneis you biought togethei Naileen.
="/*((12 Well fiist . my whole iuea staiteu with the pioblem I iecognizeu in the
Netheilanus that the goveinment hau in ieaching people with theii new policy of
sustainability in the late 8u's. Anu I thought that they weie kinu of abstiact in theii
infoimation anu I thought I coulu builu peihaps - by showing solutions in the live
enviionment anu biinging people in touch with the qualities that belong with sustainable
measuies. Anu I wiote a pioposal anu I founu ten people - people that I knew in my
netwoiks - aichitect, lanuscape aichitects, eneigy specialists, peimacultuie specialists,
people who woik in healthcaie, oi school teacheis - anu we all woikeu out this concept.
Anu then the city of Culemboig heaiu about us anu was inteiesteu anu wanteu to contact
us. You know to cieate a neighboihoou iequiies so many uisciplines, anu when people
also want to be pait of it, you have to oveicome youi own limits peihaps even. Anu you
ieally have to wish to coopeiate togethei anu woik on one laigei whole togethei. Anu
that's what we uiu, in fact.
D(,62 That's quite a iange of people - can you paint us a pictuie about what you built.
="/*((12 A neighboihoou on a site of about 24 hectaies (one hectaie is about 1u,uuu
squaie meteis). The unusual thing is that it was pait of a uiinking watei piotectoiate of a
uiinking watei company anu the lanu was a foimei agiicultuie zone that came available
because this company hau to go to a ueepei level anu also pump clean uiinking watei - but
that is anothei uetail. The city was able to buy the lanu foi this pioject anu we hau a goal
to builu at least 2Su houses, because also people who weie on the boaiu of the founuation
- two piofessois - saiu that the most, the gieatest, piofit when you look at sustainability,
is founu in the infiastiuctuie knowleuge in the inuiviuual houses. What we also wanteu
was to be in haimony with the existing natuie; that's pait of the oiganic aichitectuie
piinciples that we followeu. So we uesigneu this uistiict within the existing lanuscape,
iespecting qualities that weie founu, like an olu iiveibeu that was iestoieu. We also
wanteu a biological faim. Theie is a huge oichaiu in the miuule of the uistiict. So we
uesigneu this whole uistiict aiounu a piotecteu zone of the watei company, anu with
sustainable eneigy. It's uifficult to mention all the uetails. But what can I auu to what
I've shaieu.
D(,62 I am cuiious to know how many people aie living theie now oi how many houses
say. Anu what kinu of houses.
="/*((12 Suu houses, seveial offices, five schools. anu 9uu to 1,uuu inhabitants at the
moment.
D(,62 Wow, that's a wonueiful neighboihoou. So you've got the basic seivices one woulu
expect in a neighboihoou to be theie, because I heaiu you say schools anu offices.
0bviously theie aie people living theie, theie aie people able to woik theie. Bow uoes the
infiastiuctuie woik that you have theie. Basic things like watei, wastewatei, gaibage,
foou. Bow uo those systems woik in EvA Lanxmeei.
="/*((12 Pait of the whole uistiict was set up as a uemonstiation pioject foi sustainable
uevelopment, anu theiefoie foi instance, the watei concept is uiviueu in foui stieams. We
collecteu iainwatei that comes fiom the ioofs in ponus anu also lovely elements in the
lanuscape. The iainwatei that falls on the stieets goes to uitches anu they aie leu away
fiom the piotecteu zone. The householu wastewatei is puiifieu biologically in ieeu beu
systems at the boiueis of the uistiict. Anu only the toilet watei is going into the sewage of
the municipality.
We uiu have a plan foi a biogas plant to ieuse the eneigy that is in the wastewatei of
toilets but that was pait of the builuing that we have not been able to iealize. So at this
moment only toilet watei is leu to the municipality sewage system, anu the iest is puiifieu
locally, anu also in the lanuscape visible foi eveiyone.
D(,62 All the watei that folks neeu comes fiom the site anu it is not pipeu in fiom the
municipality. Say youi uiinking watei - uo youi pipes come into youi neighboihoou oi is
all the watei you neeu alieauy theie.
="/*((12 That is fiom the local uiinking watei company, which is pait of the whole city of
Culemboig watei system.
D(,62 You mentioneu the places foi foou to giow. Coulu you tell us a little bit moie about
that.
="/*((12 Yes, that was pait of oui concept, to biing people in touch with natuie again,
anu also with wheie oui foou comes fiom, anu also as an activity zone, peihaps - you can
join if you like, anu help the faimeis. So pait of the uistiict is a faim of five hectaies, anu
we have oui foou locally piouuceu. They have a lot of clients, anu the iest of the town as
well, anu fiom towns aiounu Culemboig. That was one of the goals that we wanteu to
accomplish. To close cycles anu biing natuie anu foou piouuction visible again in the
quality of oui lives.
D(,62 That biings me to my next question, which is about the eneigy that the builuings
neeu, anu what aie you uoing on that fiont. Electiicity anu that kinu of thing.
="/*((12 Again, being a uemonstiation pioject, we wanteu to make things visible foi a
laigei public - the houses have solai panels foi waim watei systems, anu most of the
houses have laige photovoltaic seivices on the ioofs. The whole uistiict is uesigneu to
make use of passive solai eneigy, anu the offices also use similai heating systems. We
have low tempeiatuie heating systems in the walls in oui houses, so we uon't have
iauiatois in fiont of the winuows. We all have low tempeiatuie heating in the walls. Aftei
the fiist phase that was built - aftei the fiist SS houses weie iealizeu - we oiganizeu the
local city heating system baseu on low tempeiatuie. It was baseu on the tempeiatuie of
the giounuwatei fiom the uiinking watei company. So we hau woikeu togethei with this
company anu oui eneigy expeits - anu foi instance in my house, I uon't have a heatei
upstaiis. I only have this low tempeiatuie system in the walls. I enjoy a veiy low-cost
eneigy system.
D(,62 I neeu to ask a veiy piactical question. I live in Eumonton Westein Canaua, which is
not by any stietch Noithein Canaua, but it is ceitainly noithein Noith Ameiica, anu
whenevei we aie talking about new iueas on any kinu of fiont, the typical question is
"Boes it woik in a wintei climate." So I just neeu to ask the question, what is the weathei
like in youi place.
="/*((12 Well it is a moueiate climate. In wintei. like the last winteis weie iathei
seveie. I think we hau tempeiatuies of -1S Celsius. Sometimes winteis aie moie gentle
like five below zeio. But the last yeais weie quite colu - foi instance we coulu skate in the
uistiict on this olu iiveibeu that we iestoieu. I uon't know the tempeiatuie wheie you
live.
D(,62 In the wintei wheie I am, it can get to -SuC oi -4uC. That woulu be typical. Bow
waim uoes it get |wheie you aiej.
="/*((12 Well a few weeks ago. noimally we have a veiy moueiate sea climate. we
have summeis of say 2SC to 24C. all ieally veiy pleasant, anu in August we hau some
uays. a week peihaps. tempeiatuies about SuC. anu also foi the iest of the
Netheilanus.
D(,62 I'm just going to check in with Alex, because you've given us an insight how
specifically you builu a physical enviionment that is veiy iesponsive to a site anu habitat,
anu supei iesponsive to the uieam that you've been holuing foi a long time, that you
founu othei people to woik with anu pull it off. Anu Alex hau a iathei inteiesting uieam
that he is woiking on iight now aiounu the Eneigetic City 2uSu. Alex coulu you please tell
us what that this is all about.
@*(A2 Yes, well I can give it a tiy. It's one of my latest piojects anu foi the fiist time it's a
collaboiation with the woman I love, with my wife. Bei name is Kaien Rikkeis. We
uieameu togethei of this pioject, anu how it enhanceu the view of the ielationship
between eneigy, city anu uaily life in the city. So we came up with this pioject calleu
Eneigetic City 2uSu. Which is a |foim ofj speculative anu competitive uesign ieseaich,
with thiee piofessional teams consisting of five people each, anu two stuuent teams anu
two aitists. We gave them all the same question, which is pait of the quest of Eneigetic
City 2uSu: 3) 9(C9*( #1 EFGF ,"H( +"/( C) ,6(#/ C71 (1(/0I? 76", 7#** ,6( +#,I *CCH
*#H(< The cential question we put into this uesign ieseaich foi aitists, aichitects,
economists, sociologists |was aimeu atj a tiansuisciplinaiy team. Foi the last couple of
months we have been on what we call an expeuition within the city of Ainhem, NL. It's an
existing city of about 1uu,uuu people. Plus we aie tiying to wiuen oui thoughts in answei
to what can be the oveiiiuing system foi a city like that, when this is the cential question.
People take caie of theii own eneigy, anu fossil fuels aien't available anymoie, oi you
can't pay foi them anymoie in 2uSu. So what kinu of solutions can we come up with, anu
how will this question anu this uevelopment tiansfoim the city. 0f couise it is a
theoietical question, but we think it's pait of an existing question, anu pait of a futuie
question, because in 2uSu, 8u peicent of people will live in cities, so we neeu to come up
with answeis.
So my wife anu I saiu, can we cieate a pioject that will speeu up oui piofessions, speeu up
connections in uay-to-uay life with citizens, to make it as a kinu of call to action. So we
staiteu now with Su people, anu pait of the ciew of the expeuition, anu will finish this
pioject in the stait of 0ctobei with a Futuie City Festival which will attiact about S,uuu
people. So we see this kinu of a pioject as a kinu of "flywheel" foi engagement on this scale
on these topics.
D(,62 I'm fascinateu by youi Su people being a ciew foi the expeuition. We hau a
conveisation last week when we weie looking at the Planet of Cities - that was the theme
foi the week - anu one of oui speakeis invokeu the notion - look when you'ie embaiking
on a big oi small pioject, you neeu to be woiking with people that shaie youi vision, etc.
But the othei thing he saiu is, you neeu to hang out with the kinu of people you'u be happy
with if you weie stianueu on an islanu. Anu to me that's soit of a similai thing; if you'ie on
a ship going out on an expeuition, oi it's just you anu youi iesouices, whethei oi not
you'ie on a ship, oi you aie in the wilueiness - what aie the qualities of people you want
on youi expeuition, that you neeu to fully access the wisuom that they have.
@*(A2 Well of couise we uiscoveieu those qualities along the way, anu of couise we fiist
uesigneu this piocess, anu we saiu, well, we neeu tiansuisciplinaiy teams - so aichitects,
uiban planneis, lanuscape aichitects, but also aitists, also economic scientists, agiicultuial
people, maiketing people. So fiist of all we saiu, the qualities we neeu aie uiveise - we
neeu a lot of uiveisity, because the challenges we aie facing uon't have a single stiaight
answei, anu we neeu all the uiffeient points of view, anu mix it in oiuei to be able to come
up with answeis. So that's one. A uiveisity of ciaftsmanship I woulu say.
I think maybe the biggest competence we neeu is flexibility. This whole pioject has been a
test in auaptability anu flexibility, because eveiy time we came togethei, things tuineu out
to be uiffeient, oi we came up with questions that we haun't confionteu yet. So it has been
anu it still is one big exeicise in flexibility anu auaptability. So I think to take on a pioject
like this, of couise, it is goou to have people you like. But I think it's even moie impoitant
that you aie togethei with people who aie able to auapt to uiffeient ciicumstances. Anu
foi my wife anu I, it's also been a big challenge, because you plan foi things, anu often it
tuins out completely uiffeient, so you neeu to auapt in that moment on the spot. So I think
that is a veiy big anu neeueu quality foi these types of expeuitions.
Anu you neeu openness - the open minus, open heaits to giow as a team anu to be able to
leain, because this pioject is also uesigneu as a leaining expeiience. Anu it has been a
leaining expeiience on uiffeient levels. So those aie thiee qualities we neeu: uiveisity,
flexibility anu openness.
D(,62 Bow uo you maintain youi peispective thiough all of this, with all the unceitainty.
You aie a city plannei anu I am a city plannei, so we know about the value of planning, but
things change anu it iequiies us to be able to auapt. But I'm wonueiing what you uo to
look aftei youiself in the miust of all the uiveisity, flexibility anu the openness.
@*(A2 Bo you mean that as a piofessional oi uo you mean that peisonally oi uo you mean
the couise of the pioject anu the uestination weie heauing foi.
D(,62 I guess incieasingly I'm looking at the piofessional anu the peisonal as viitually the
same thing. So foi youiself in the miust of all of the woik that you aie uoing, how uo you
maintain youi own peisonal life-sustaining eneigy.
@*(A2 That's a goou question. Because what you often see in having those uieams like
this. it's not been my fiist uieam, woiking on biggei piojects oi with a lot of people -
sometimes theie is this tenuency to giow anu giow, anu sometimes theie is this notion
that you can contiol it, anu then when you stait tiying to contiol it, it uoesn't flow
anymoie. Ny biggest lessons so fai on woiking on things like this has been to be tiustful
oi have confiuence that what is theie, is what is neeueu. So we ueal with the people we
have on the teams. Anu sometimes you think: Is this all iight. I long foi bettei people oi
foi moie clevei people. Anu it's the same foi youi peisonal life. Sometimes I'm haish on
myself - |I thinkj I coulu have uone oi piepaieu bettei. It's also piactising being humble to
what is tiying to evolve, maybe thiough you, oi thiough myself, anu so I piactise on my
openness - foi myself too - a lot. To tiy anu stay in touch with what inspiies me oi what
come thiough me as iueas oi neeus to be put foiwaiu. Bence I can say that is a challenge.
D(,62 Aie you comfoitable in shaiing with us what you uo to allow things to simply
unfolu.
@*(A2 Well suie. 0ne of the things is, I meuitate. So I tiy to finu moments in my hectic life
to get in touch with my suiiounuings, natuie oi the lanuscape I live in. I take long walks
with the uog oi with my wife anu just connect to my place, to my context. I finu that veiy
soothing, oi in a way, comfoiting, anu feeling connecteu to the biggei thing, the biggei
scheme anu that helps to finu youi place in the stieam of life. Anu I also tiy to take caie of
myself with just eating goou foou, vegetaiian foou, exeicise. }ust noimal things, but taking
caie of youi heait is, I think, one of the most uifficult things. Anu I piactice vulneiability,
because when something huits, it is easiei to contiact than to stay open. Anu I think what
we all neeu, oi what the woilu neeus - what we as a people neeu - is openness oi
connection, anu theie can't be a connection if you aie shut oi closeu. But that is a uifficult
thing. It's not something we aie taught, oi see as a common piactice aiounu us. So it's
something you have to uiscovei.
D(,62 We aie in the piocess of uiscoveiing how these eneigy systems move in us, anu you
aie just aiticulating how this happens wonueifully, anu how these eneigy systems move
up into laigei anu laigei systems - such as a city, oi the planet of cities, oi the whole
planet. 0ui theme foi this week is uaia's Reflective 0igan. You have just given us some
peisonal examples anu peisonal piactices all the way up to a uieam of a big city of the
futuie.
I want to weave Naileen back in, with what I think is a pietty stiaightfoiwaiu question
that Naileen is going to have lots to say about - what aie the qualities of healthy city
stiuctuies that suppoit the well-being of all.
="/*((12 Foi me it is to have an enviionment aiounu you that you can feel with all youi
senses. Not only the noimal five senses, but what I leaineu uuiing seveial yeais of oiganic
aichitectuie that theie is this whole spiiitual, biggei fielu - that we aie, as humans, pait of
a biggei whole, anu that we expeiience that also with oui senses that we uon't noimally
know about. But foi me, to be in this enviionment with so much natuie, anu moie than Su
peicent of my well-being comes about in this lanuscape that I'm a pait of. this uistiict
that I live in.
D(,62 You aie just evoking such a big pictuie about how poweiful it woulu be if we each
walkeu aiounu oui homes, oui neighboihoous, oui cities, oui planet, fully taking in
eveiything with all of oui senses. Because that's a ieally stiong imageiy you've just
biought foiwaiu foi me. I'm wonueiing what the qualities aie of the physical stiuctuies
that we builu that woulu suppoit the well-being of all.
="/*((12 Well the physical stiuctuies - it is not only the mateiials that shoulu be
sustainable anu shoulu be healthy anu goou quality oi ceitificateu goou, but it's also the
uimensions of the stiuctuies anu the peisonal wishes of people who live theie. Bow the
builuing is uesigneu; how they aie placeu in natuie. I must say that is not an easy question
foi me to answei because that uepenus on whethei you want to builu a huge office oi uo
you want to builu a peisonal home oi an apaitment builuing. But always it is about how
uimensions aie ielateu to the mateiials you use, colois that aie useu.
D(,62 Can you uesciibe the choices of the colois you maue foi the homes in EvA Lanxmeei
anu why you chose that.
="/*((12 Well in fact, Baibaia Eble-uiebnei, the wife of }oachim Eble, the uiban plannei
anu one of the aichitects of this uistiict, she maue a coloi concept foi the whole uistiict.
They aie natuial colois, anu the paint that is useu is all natuial paint, anu it gives a kinu of
balance aiounu the whole uistiict. The colois |iecuij anu theie is not a totally inuiviuual
choice by eveiyone - houses aie in balance with each othei. The coloi pattein is also kinu
of a peace-giving pattein that is thioughout the uistiict.
D(,62 When you talk about the uimensions of builuings, what uiu you enu up choosing foi
youi uimensions of builuings - whethei they weie the homes oi the office oi schools.
="/*((12 What I peihaps have not emphasizeu enough is that pait of oui whole uesigning
piocess was woiking togethei with futuie inhabitants, anu that we involveu them in the
piocess, anu also staiteu with an investigation about what kinu of house woulu you like.
So we ieally wanteu to involve people who aie going to live theie, because it is theii
uistiict. Anu theie became a whole vaiiety of wishes fiom people |about theiij inuiviuual
homes. In the Netheilanus you often builu in ioaus. We uiu not want to have many villas
because we neeueu uensity in the Netheilanus, because we uo not have so much space.
But theie aie many people who also wanteu to have an apaitment, anu theie aie people,
foi instance, who have a penthouse on top of an office. So theie is a whole vaiiety of small
apaitments, smallei houses, laigei houses. Also a few initiatives came fiom aichitects who
wanteu to iealize theii own uieams, anu so we have houses within glass houses, foi
instance - 18 houses in total that aie ieally exceptional - wonueiful to live in, I think, anu
beautiful to look at when you also have teiiaces insiue youi house anu behinu these glass
walls. So theie is a whole vaiiety baseu on the wishes anu tastes of people who joineu anu
wanteu to be a citizen heie.
D(,62 Naileen can you tell us how you woikeu with people to uo this co-cieative soit of
piocess. What uiu you uo.
="/*((12 It was one of the unusual things that I think still ieally auueu to the success that
we hau. When I staiteu this whole pioject, I liveu in Amsteiuam. It was 199S anu I hau
laige netwoiks, so I hau wiitten a pioposal anu hanueu it out to many people. Anu alieauy
befoie we got in touch with the city of Culemboig, theie weie 82 families that saiu,
wheievei you finu a place, we want to live in such a uistiict. So we hau alieauy a whole
gioup of people aiounu us that weie inteiesteu, anu hau not signeu a contiact, but the
wonueiful thing was that the uiiectoi of the planning uepaitment in Culemboig was veiy
open to the fact that we hau so many people who weie wanting to join in. Be maue it
possible to give them a ceitain iole uuiing this whole piocess, befoie the builuing, in fact,
staiteu. Then we got a subsiuy fiom the Ninistei of Bousing, who was also inteiesteu in
this pioject. I think even Alex was theie at that time to join. So you weie one of the 7u
people we oiganizeu, thiee weeks long, eveiy weekenu, woikshops foi people who weie
inteiesteu, anu we staiteu to infoim them totally about the uepth of eveiy concept. We
hau lectuies about the integial watei concept. Lectuies about aichitectuie anu lanuscape
that we wanteu to uesign. About the piinciples. We hau the location at the time, but we
wanteu to give them a ueep insight in all the qualities, so that they woulu be able to be a
paitnei on speaking teims about it. Anu the city gave them a place, anu even aftei two
yeais |whenj they staiteu theii Association of inhabitants, then they weie inviteu to join
in the pioject gioup, anu ieally became pait of the planning phase. So the city was veiy
open to incluue these people, anu they unueistoou it woulu be pait of the success of this
pioject that you make it a ieal peisonal expeiience. It tuineu out anothei wonueiful thing,
the city maue also pieces of lanu available - pait of the uistiict is built in kinu of a
couityaiu situation, anu we all have inuiviuual gaiuens. But we all aie also besiue lanu in a
communal gaiuen |maue availablej foi a cheapei piice - this was ieally the basis foi a
veiy ueep social life togethei in this uistiict. We uesigneu these gaiuens togethei, we uo
the maintenance togethei, was also the basis of new initiatives by people who wanteu to
take new steps. It has become a veiy lively pioject, anu at this moment the inhabitants
have, in fact, taken ovei the whole maintenance of the uistiict.
They have oiganizeu anu they aie now the ownei of an eneigy company - they have taken
ovei the local eneigy company that was situateu in the uiinking watei company. So they
ieally want to be iesponsible anu cieate theii own lives, anu that was the whole wish foi
the EvA pioject. To cieate ciicumstances foi people to be the uesigneis of theii own lives.
D(,62 So Alex, as a paiticipant in these eaily woikshops, what was that like foi you.
@*(A2 What it uiu to me was - it toucheu me, because these types of piojects weie pait of
the uieam I hau myself, anu Naileen was a big example foi me. The thing she uiu was
showing what is possible, anu at that time I was still a stuuent, so I was able to integiate
these types of expeiiences in my own stuuies, focusing my stuuies at the faculty of
aichitectuie aiounu sustainability. Thiough the yeais, Naileen anu I always stayeu in
touch, anu I woikeu foi the city of Almeie also, foi ten yeais. Anu the uieam of EvA
Lanxmeei - in a way, I tiieu to implement it on a city level in the city of Almeie, with
piinciples I leaineu in EvA Lanxmeei, but then on a biggei scale. Foi me it's been an
empoweiing expeiience.
D(,62 Alex can you tell us about the Almeie Piinciples
1
. Tell us about what they aie.
@*(A2 The Almeie Piinciples aie kinu of a ueclaiation oi agenua oi iueological fiamewoik.
In 2uu6, the city of Almeie was askeu by the cential goveinment to uouble in size, to builu
an extia 6u,uuu uwellings, anu cieate anothei 1uu,uuu new jobs. We calleu this pioject the
"scale jump-Almeie." Almeie is one of the new towns in Bollanu, anu it's now about
19u,uuu inhabitants anu it shoulu giow to SSu,uuu inhabitants. 0f couise these aie all
quantitative numbeis, but the coie of this question was the qualitative question - how can
we uo this in a sustainable way. Bow can we enhance the alieauy existing city anu its
enviionment by this type of huge uevelopment - this huge giowth. At that time I was the
Sustainability Auvisoi foi the city, woiking foi the city, anu I was in the lucky position that
I coulu auvise my alueiman to be in touch with Bill NcBonough, because he was asking me,
uo I know a peison - a uesignei inteinationally who can cope with a question like this.
Anu the only one I knew of was Bill NcBonough.

1
See e.g. http:maiilyn.integialcity.com2u11u42ualmeie-piinciples-guiue-city-giowth
So we set out on an expeuition with him, also collaboiating with Nichael Biaungait, in
ueveloping the Almeie Piinciples. They weie inspiieu by the woik that hau been uone by
Bill NcBonough anu Nichael Biaungait foi the Banovei Piinciples - the uesign guiuelines
foi the Woilu Expo in 2uuu in Banovei, anu, of couise, latei in the sustainability
philosophy of Ciaule-to-Ciaule. The pioactive anu innovative appioach that was pait of
Ciaule-to-Ciaule, iecognizeu by us anu also my alueiman, that that was the next step in
sustainability thinking - foi us, sustainability thinking 2.u. We woikeu closely togethei foi
a couple of months with the office of Bill NcBonough, anu we uevelopeu these seven
Almeie Piinciples.
If you aie talking about piinciples foi healthy city stiuctuie fiom a physical point of view,
one of the piinciples is "uesign healthy systems." We saiu that to sustain the city, we
woulu use Ciaule-to-Ciaule solutions, iecognizing the inteiuepenuence at all scales of
ecological, social anu economic health. 0f couise, we useu the simple concepts that aie
pait of Ciaule-to-Ciaule, like waste equals foou, iely on ienewable eneigy souices, anu
iespect uiveisity. But we enhanceu those piinciples, anu we uesigneu an extia six, like
cultivate uiveisity, connect place anu context, combine the city anu natuie, anticipate
change, continue innovation, anu last but not least, empowei people to make the city.
Togethei these piinciples aie a kinu of manifesto - an act of cultuie fiom oui own city of
Almeie, to confiont these challenges we weie facing as a city, anu as a countiy, anu as a
woilu, in a positive way. Because a lot of times it's not possible to uo it. To quote Bill
NcBonough, "uesign is the fiist signal of human intention." That ieally stiuck me, that
uesign can be aligneu oi tuneu in with youi intention, as an inuiviuual, oi even moie
poweifully, as a gioup of citizens, who aie even moie poweiful as a whole city. That was
my uieam, that as a city of Almeie, we coulu collaboiate along the way, step-by-step, anu
tiansfoim into a tiuly sustainable city. That woik is still in piogiess. I left the city about
two yeais ago, but I see that the uevelopment is still continuing. 0f couise it's not easy,
anu with political changes, it changes oi becomes moie uifficult, but these Almeie
Piinciples aie kinu of an anchoi point - they offei guiuance - foi all those who aie
involveu in the fuithei uesign of Almeie as a sustainable city, foi the next uecaue.
I'm still veiy piouu of being pait of the piocess, anu being able to put that maik on the
hoiizon, anu inspiie othei people to woik with these types of piinciples. Because I think
they aie pait of the integial appioach, because they aie inviting anu also honoiing the
inuiviuual powei of people anu the collective powei of people.
D(,62 They stanu out foi me like a gioup of people going on an expeuition thiough a
mountain iange, like tiail maikeis - you've left nice cleai tiail maikeis foi people.
I am going to swing ovei foi a moment back to Naileen. When people visit EvA Lanxmeei,
what is the most common thing that people notice as they aie walking thiough it.
="/*((12 When people come - usually gioups who inquiie - we give them a piesentation
about the whole pioject, incluuing all the piocesses, etc. Then we have a guiueu walk of
about 1V houis, noimally. But what I finu iemaikable is that whethei people aie "high oi
low" - people who come heie aie Loiu mayois oi ministeis of Fiance, oi big uiiectois of
big companies, oi aichitects, oi gioups of inhabitants - |no mattei whoj in fact, they ieact
out of being a human being. So they almost all ieact out of theii solai plexus - feeling,
insteau of an intellectual ieaction. That is what I ieally enjoy, that people feel just a human
being heie.
D(,62 That's poweiful. That's a measuie of success, in my book. Alex, I am ieally stiuck -
I'm a city plannei, you'ie a city plannei. I'm ieally stiuck by the couiage that you have to
take such a big piogiessive view of youi woik, anu I'm wonueiing what's youi hot tip foi
fellow planneis that aie uieaming, anu just neeu to finu the couiage. Bo you have any hot
tips foi folks like that.
@*(A2 I think I talkeu about it alieauy fiom my peisonal point of view. Listen to youi heait.
Baie to follow youi heait. 0f couise that's easiei saiu than uone. Foi me. I've giown into
this fiom a youngstei, fonu of auventuie anu fonu of tiaveling. so I think it's alieauy pait
of my genes oi BNA. I uon't finu it too uifficult to uo. 0f couise. I can imagine |big uieamsj
. anu sometimes theie is feai. too. But like I saiu, what can ieally happen. What is youi
feai foi not uoing |youi uieamj. Foi me it's been a veiy iewaiuing expeiience to follow
my passion anu to follow my heait, anu leaining that it is a piactice of stumbling foiwaiu.
It's not that you know the path - but it's about tiusting youi instincts, tiusting youi gut. So
that is my hot tip - uaie to listen to what is insiue of you, anu tiust it.
D(,62 Well that's a pietty poweiful notion actually. To just simply tiust youiself anu what
youi self knows - that's pietty poweiful.
JK@ )/C8 ":4#(1+(2
L#"1(2 A speakei yesteiuay spoke about using the momentum, the eneigy that people
have, in tiying to quickly uevelop something, so that eneigy is quickly mateiializeu. Ny
question has to uo with, how uo you choose whethei to move veiy quickly on a pioject, oi
having a long piocess of people being involveu, talking anu uieaming, anu that kinu of
thing. Is it uepenuent on the people theie that aie willing to paiticipate, anu what they aie
wanting, oi on the uigency of the pioject that neeus to be finisheu.
="/*((12 That is inteiesting - that is just what happeneu almost 2u yeais ago - we aie
talking about the eaily 9us - it was my ieaction to a pioblem that I iecognizeu in society.
The fact that we hau a long piocess is because you cannot uo it alone. You have to fiist
answei - give shape to youi own feelings about the pioblem that you see, anu then finu
paitneis to uevelop it with you fuithei. Anu then finu a possibility to iealize it. In oui case
it was, in fact, happening quite quickly, if I may compaie it to many othei piojects that I
have witnesseu. But the fact that you finu a city who wants to buy the lanu necessaiily, etc.
- this kinu of pioject you cannot uevelop oveinight. It is a long way that you have to tiavel,
but you can make use of the momentum when it aiises. Anu that is, in fact, what we uiu.
We knew that it was not something that you coulu uo in a week oi a month, anu in fact, it
was also the ieason that in the beginning it uiu not appeal to pioject uevelopeis, who, in
geneial, at that time weie much moie inteiesteu in theii piofit in a much shoitei time. So
we took the time to have oui piocess. Anu I'm veiy happy to say that it has been totally
|extiaoiuinaiyj iesults of how it came about - it was fai bettei anu moie beautiful anu
moie pleasant than we coulu have evei imagineu. Especially because of the iole that
inhabitants took on. So sometimes you have to be patient, but still you can make use of the
momentum.
D(,62 Alex uo you have any thoughts on the woik that you have uone anu the woik that
you will uo all the way to 2uSu.
@*(A2 I think momentum is always pait of the success, using the momentum oi
iecognizing the momentum. Anu it's not that theie is only one momentum. Someone once
tolu me it's like a sushi bai |with ievolving uishesj anu sometimes the challenge oi the
moment comes aiounu again, but maybe at that time, someone has alieauy taken the uish
fiom the ciiculating plates. Nomentum is impoitant, but I uon't have a key foi iecognizing
momentum. If I look at myself - it often shows itself when things fall into place easily, anu
things stait coinciuing without too much effoit - people calling each othei at the same
moment, anu stumbling upon things without ieally looking foi them. Foi me, that is
always a signal about something that wants to emeige.
0ften it's also about meeting the iight people. They stait asking you about things that you
neeu at this moment. So it is about tiusting that things aie theie at this moment to make it
happen. Naybe not looking too fai aheau, about what you aie planning foi, but iecognizing
what is in fiont of you. So much foi using momentum - but connecting with people who
aie in fiont of you, oi aiounu you, oi that aie even closei by than you might think, in
making it happen. So that is one of the lessons I leaineu thiough all of these piojects.
="/*((12 It is exactly how you uesciibe, how the fiist yeais that the EvA Lanxmeei
pioject woikeu - how things fell in place - like automatically almost. Anu sometimes you
get veiy optimistic that it will always be that way.
@*(A2 But it isn't always like that.
="/*((12 But it just happeneu. The things that we coulu not imagine - they just happeneu.
@*(A2 Foi me the example with the Almeie Piinciples was a piofounu expeiience. 0ne
moining, walking to the office anu aftei alieauy woiking foi six yeais on my municipality,
I came acioss my alueiman, who hau just iecoveieu fiom two weeks of illness. Be hau
seen a uocumentaiy about Ciaule-to-Ciaule, anu was veiy inspiieu, anu just that moment,
in the moining, he tiiggeieu a whole chain of actions that maue it possible to cieate the
Almeie Piinciples.
D(,62 Aiounu the eneigy that shows up when we weie talking about the momentum -
theie is an eneigy aiounu the eneigy when we cieate a system. Naileen uo you have a hot
tip about how to make this come to pass.
="/*((12 It uepenus so much on the scale - whethei it's a peison who wants to stait a
pioject on theii own, oi a gioup of people. I think on youi own, it's always haiu to stait
something. But this |piojectj is paitly something you can |shaie withj people. I staiteu
thinking about the Tiansition Town movement that is expanuing so much in the woilu anu
staiting activities. 0i about installing solai panels, oi staiting vegetable gaiuens in youi
stieet - those |aie piojectsj on a moie peisonal level. You aie able to uo iathei small
things because they can be veiy impoitant in youi life.
But if theie aie laigei gioups, fiom city councils, oi othei laigei gioups, I thought about
the woik of }ohn Thompson anu paitneis |fiom the 0Kj, who woik all ovei the woilu anu
aie ieally expeits with uesigning piocesses foi laige gioups of people, so |they can helpj if
theie is ieally a ueep wish, to ienovate a pait of a town oi a neighboihoou - because the
oiganization of the piocesses is ieally impoitant to obtain the iesult that you uieam about.
I hau the luck to have a laige gioup of people aiounu me - piofessionals in all kinus of
piofessions - that fiist wanteu to uevelop the concept with me. So fiist you neeu to look
foi the piofessionals that you neeu, anu then you must look foi the finances to pay them.
0n the othei hanu, theie aie so many things going on in cities that aie veiy valuable, anu
you can finu like-minueu people aiounu you - whethei they aie piofessional oi not. But I
think it woulu be a goou iuea to foim a gioup of people who shaie iueals anu stait to go
foiwaiu with them. But what you neeu uepenus on the scale that you have in minu.
D(,62 Yes, that seems to be a bit of a pattein touay. To be cognizant of the scale of the
pioject. Eailiei touay, with oui Thought Leauei Aichitect, Naik BeKay, we weie talking
even about the scale of time. You know you can woik on a small pocket paik pioject (like
the Pomegianate Centei in Seattle, 0SA, we heaiu about yesteiuay). But, I am wonueiing
about EvA Lanxmeei anu Tiansition Towns - coulu you uive into that a little bit please.
="/*((12 Theie is not such a big connection at the moment. Because although people
think that EvA Lanxmeei was a big bottom-up uesigneu pioject, it was not, in fact, the case
at all. Theie is no uiiect connection to the Tiansition Towns. I heaiu fiom a Fiench
jouinalist, a iequest to wiite a hanubook foi them, to help stait a laigei pioject. But in oui
case, a gioup of piofessionals - we founu a paitnei in a city - anu it was oui wish to
incluue the inhabitants anu futuie inhabitants in the pioject.
In Tiansition Towns, it is noimally focusing on the ienewal of existing neighboihoous. You
have a totally uiffeient staiting point. You have alieauy an uiban plan; you have an
amount of houses anu stieets; you have existing sewage system; anu you have peihaps
|gieateij limitations in the possibilities of ieuesign oi to ieaiiange youi whole
enviionment. But peihaps I am not totally familiai with all the uiffeient kinus of plans
they accomplish. But at the moment |when I set outj we hau a gioup who wanteu to have
a look heie. But this pioject uiu stait as a new uistiict, anu not pait of a ienovation of an
olu town.
D(,62 Yes anu as you say that, it stiikes me about how both Almeie was builuing a new
town, anu youi expeiience |in EvA Lanxmeeij was the same. Alex I want to zip back ovei
to you anu ask you what youi expeiience is with Eneigetic City 2uSu - to what uegiee aie
you looking at iecieating oi iegeneiating the cities that we have.
@*(A2 As well as in Almeie, in Ainhem we aie uealing with existing cities. When we staiteu
with Almeie, we weie giowing fiom Almeie 1.u to 2.u, fiom 1Su,uuu to SSu,uuu
inhabitants. A lot of people weie looking at the gieen fielus of new uevelopment, but the
existing city iose up anu saiu, "What about us. We aie alieauy heie - not foi such a long
time, but alieauy foi Su yeais." So Almeie was ieally a new town, anu we |eaily
inhabitantsj aie alieauy connecteu to the space with existing stiuctuies - a lot that we
cheiish.
0f couise a lot of stiuctuies weien't in place yet, because it was still a city in giowth. So
what we tiieu to uo was connect the new uevelopment, the new phase of giowth, to the
existing stiuctuies, anu by uesigning new stiuctuies, cieating moie value foi the whole
city. So I think theie is always an existing quality when you stait uesigning a place. In the
case of EvA Lanxmeei, I iecognizeu one of the contiibutions that pioject maue was that it
enhanceu the foimei qualities of that existing site, because they iaiseu the quality of
stiuctuies like the olu iiveibeu. They ieintiouuceu the biouiveisity of floia anu fauna that
useu to be theie. So foi me, my uieam as an aichitect anu city plannei is to always
maintain the existing qualities anu tiy to builu on that, to enhance anu to implement new
oi extia qualities.
The same thing is happening in Ainhem - looking to the futuie. We have seen the uesigns
fiom thiee completely uiffeient teams. 0ne team is cheiishing the whole city, saying the
existing enviionment won't change too much. But the use of the existing enviionment will
change. While anothei team says the city of 2Su,uuu will be completely uiffeient than
what we know now, because we uon't neeu the whole city to expeiience city life. Anu they
aie ieally inteivening in city stiuctuies, fiom a completely uiffeient point of view. What
we will see fiom uiffeient points of view fiom Eneigetic City is what aie the basic
stiuctuies you will neeu foi a iesilient city - anu in this case it's Ainhem. What aie new
stiuctuies that you can implement anu make the city a healthiei oiganism.
So in Almeie, as well as in Ainhem, with the Eneigetic City appioach, what I iecognize is
that, we look at the city moie anu moie as a metabolism, anu we as citizens anu we as
people aie pait of that biggei metabolism. So theie aie inteitwining ielationships between
the people who live in the city anu what you call the opeiating system foi the city. 0ne of
the teams that is calleu "Eneigie," they say that in 2uSu, the whole eneigy question we aie
iaising is alieauy solveu by technical solutions. So fiom that point on, people will uiscovei
that eneigy - theii own spiiitual eneigy - is the most impoitant eneigy to look aftei anu
uevelop.
D(,62 0ne of the seven Almeie Piinciples is to empowei people to make the city. Coulu
you give us some insight about the most effective stiategies you know to accomplish that.
I think this gets at the new opeiating system.
@*(A2 What we have been woiking on in the city of Almeie auuiessing that point,
empoweiing people to make the city, staiteu quite liteially. We gave the citizens moie
oppoitunity to make theii own homes, to uesign theii own homes, by iegulating oui
enviionmental plans in such a way that it is not an obstacle, but an invitation. Because
often iules aie uifficult to oveicome to builu youi own uieam. So as a city we ueciueu to
make new iules anu new enviionmental plans oi city plans that aie able to anticipate
inuiviuual oi collective uieams foi people to make theii homes oi make theii own gioup
of homes. So that is one. If you built a home in Almeie |that was the situationj. It staiteu
off as inuiviuual housing oi piivate housing initiatives on a scale of a uistiict like EvA
Lanxmeei. Anu it tuineu out to be quite successful, but it also innovateu oui way of
woiking as a municipality. We weie useu to woiking with piofessional companies, like
builuingconstiuction uevelopeis, who woulu like to builu maybe 2uu homes at one time,
anu now we hau to ueal with citizens who want to builu one home at a time. So it is a
completely uiffeient way of woiking, anu it connecteu us much moie to people who
alieauy liveu in Almeie oi who wanteu to live theie.
As pait of that piogiam we saiu that it is oui conviction that eveiyone shoulu be able to
builu theii own home - even lowei income people. So we collaboiateu with housing
companies anu making financially suppoiteu constiuctions to have a kinu of stiategy of
shaieu piopeity. So you buy that pait of the home, that you uesigneu youiself, that you
can pay foi, anu the iest is paiu foi oi owneu by that company. As you move along thiough
the yeais eaining moie money, you can buy a biggei piopeity of youi own, but you
uesigneu youi own home accoiuing to youi own uieams. So we helpeu people fiom
uiffeient layeis in society to make theii own home. Anu that has been quite a
bieakthiough, too, because in oui cultuie in Bollanu, it's kinu of an elite kinu of thing to
make youi own home. Because othei people just buy theii homes fiom builuing
companies oi housing coopeiatives. So we staiteu off on the level of uistiicts.
Now theie is this big plan foi the eastein pait of Almeie, wheie we applieu a stiategy not
on the level of an inuiviuual home oi a gioup of homes, but to complete uistiicts. So we
uesigneu a kinu of oiganic piocess. We've uesigneu the containeis, setting the conuitions
foi being able to make whole uistiicts, oi even a whole city uistiict, on the basis of
inuiviuual oi collective initiatives. So that's been a veiy successful anu wiuely copieu
stiategy thiough the whole of Bollanu to empowei people to make theii own city, liteially.
D(,62 When I askeu the question, I was thinking of piocess, but you have taken us to how
citizens liteially make theii own city in which they'ie going to live. It uoesn't get any
bettei than that, so that's fabulous.
I want to check in with the two of you to see if you have any ieflections on the
conveisation the two of you have hau, anu any last thoughts that you may have on the
ciitical impoitance that stiuctuies have on oui cities.
="/*((12 I was just thinking of a question I have foi Alex. What I was always wonueiing
about, if you hau many fiienus who wanteu to builu theii house heie. Then we hau this
caiefully uesigneu uiban plan which was the basic basis foi them to uesign theii homes on.
I was always wonueiing how this woikeu in Almeie, in ieality, when, of couise, you hau an
uiban plan, anu what weie the fieeuoms oi limits of people who wanteu to builu theii
own houses. What uiu you have to iesponu to. Because I think that is a veiy impoitant
thing when you have people builu theii own city.
@*(A2 Tiue. In the fiist level about uevelopments empoweiing people to make theii own
city oi what we calleu, "I builu my home oi I builu my company" - in Almeie , we hau a
municipality who uesigneu the basic fiamewoik on a system-level - staiting on a spatial
level, but also on eneigy, sewage systems, watei, etc. - so we maue a kinu of basic
stiuctuie wheie inuiviuuals oi collectives coulu builu theii homes anu how they wanteu
to builu those homes, we gave them as much fieeuom as possible. But the spatial anu
infiastiuctuial stiuctuies we pioviueu, anu that went successfully. What we leaineu is,
theie aie quite a lot of people who want to ueciue what type of eneigy, oi what type of
watei system they want to connect to, oi want to have pioviueu foi |theii usej. So in the
seconu phase of this uevelopment, we pioviueu moie libeity in choosing what type of
systems you woulu like to connect to. So we pioviueu foi a moie uiveise city. Pait of the
uistiict was pioviueu with |one kinu ofj heating system, the othei was electiicity. So theie
was moie fieeuom of choice on that level.
Anu the thiiu level we aie now encounteiing oi exploiing is that even on that level we
only pioviue foi, I woulu say, the ambitions foi the inteiconnecteuness, that we seaich foi
in this whole aiea wheie Almeie is involveu. We invite people to make theii own solutions
on a system-level, builuing the system fiom within insteau of we, as a municipality,
pioviuing foi infiastiuctuie on the whole uistiict level. It is not ieality yet, but I believe we
aie piepaiing foi that jump that people aie feeling comfoitable with, even on a system-
level, builuing the system fiom within - on the watei level, eneigy level, sewage system
level - even on a mobility level. The choice you have is on an inuiviuual scale but you can
also uo it on a collective scale. So we pioviue foi uiffeient plots in that aiea. But eveiy plot
in itself you can consiuei it as a holon. Eveiy plot coulu be - anu that is a choice - coulu be
self-sustaining. But it is moie woithwhile to connect to youi neighboi oi two othei
neighbois anu maybe oiganize youiself with neighbois to make a biggei holon, oi biggei
stiuctuie.
D(,62 I am completely stiuck how thioughout the conveisation how when we aie
physically builuing the stiuctuies, theie is a huge amount of self oiganization that is
natuially taking place, anu how in the piojects you aie both talking about, how self
oiganizing is woven into the hieiaichies that aie theie anu also natuially occuiiing -
whethei that's buieauciacy oi simply how we oiganize ouiselves. You aie both wonueiful
uesign leaueis giving oui listeneis veiy piovocative examples of the woik that we can uo.
You aie cleaily tiail maikeis foi us. You aie tiail maikeis at eveiy scale that I can imagine.
So I thank you both veiy much foi being heie. It is a huge contiibution that you have maue
to Integial City 2.u 0nline Confeience.
~~~

1

What and where are we implementing structural / infrastructural intelligence?
Speakers: Brian Robertson, Brett Thomas
September 13, 2012

Brian Robertson is an experienced entrepreneur, CEO, and
organizational pioneer. He is best known for his work developing
Holacracy, a social technology for purpose-driven organizations. Brians
passion for software and business began early; he began programming at
age six, and launched his first software-related business at age
twelve. His initial work with Holacracy took place at an award-winning
fast-growth software company he founded and led for seven years, which
was recognized as one of the worlds most democratic workplaces. The system has
continued to evolve and spread under the stewardship of HolacracyOne, an organization
Brian co-founded to further develop the method and bring it to the world. He currently
works with HolacracyOne to help consultants and change agents bring its evolutionary
approach to organizations across the globe.

Brett Thomas is the co-founder of Stagen, a Texas-based organizational
consulting firm that specializes in Integral Leadership. He is the author
and architect of the Stagen Leadership Academys 52-week intensive
Integral Leadership Program, now in its 10th year. Brett is a 20-year
veteran in the field of human performance and organizational
development having designed and facilitated hundreds of workshops and
corporate training programs. Brett has logged over 10,000 hours
coaching CEOs. He has published work on applied integral theory and has co-designed and
co-delivered international conferences and seminars on applied integral theory. Brett
served many years as the Managing Director of the Integral Institute Business and
Leadership Center and on the Editorial Board for the Journal of Integral Theory and
Practice. Brett currently serves on the boards of both Integral Leadership Review and
Integral Publishers. He is writing a book with Russ Volckmann on Integral Leadership.

Marilyn Hamilton: Its my pleasure to introduce this session by first framing it within the
theme of the second week of the conference. In the first week we started to explore how to
create a new operating system for the city, and we called that first week the Planet of
Cities, and thinking about how Mother Earth is our Motherboard. This week weve been
talking about Gaias Reflective Organ, with Integral Intelligence Inside. This theme today
has been focusing on the intelligence of structure, or infrastructure, or systems. This tends
to be the way that we think about our built city.
In my book, Integral City, I define structural intelligence as the Its space of the city. Its the
intelligence that connects us to the realities of the city that we see, feel, hear, smell, touch
and taste. It gives us the capacity to both structure and systematize our environment.
Introducing our two presenters today, Im excited that their contributions will bring a way
of engaging with the practice of this intelligence, both at the organizational level and at the
individual level.
Weve heard today from Mark DeKay talking about how to approach design from the
perspective of this intelligence. Earlier we heard two designers who are actively involved
in living the designs. But we wanted to offer some real tools that people can use in
approaching both structures and systems within this intelligence.
Introducing Brian Robertson, Ive found his dynamic steering principles invaluable in
expediting organizations, projects, and at many different scales. Joining Brian is Brett
Thomas. I met Brett last year at the Integral Leadership Collaborative conference he
produced, and was so impressed with the conference that I persuaded Brett to be a
partner in delivering this Integral City 2.0 Online Conference. I give a special warm
welcome to Brett to join the conference as a presenter.
Its interesting when we look at the city through the lenses of organizations, were often
thinking about it in ways that divide up the organizations into sectors. Weve been
exploring this week using the Integral model of how to bring the picture of the city
together as a whole living system. We started off earlier in the week with Ken Wilber, then
yesterday we heard Jean Houstons wonderful insights on cultures from around the world
and looking at cities that way. Weve explored this intelligence of structures and systems,
and I really want to bring the framing of Holacracy into this discussion, because I think its
so valuable to have a way of looking at organizations through this same kind of paradigm.
Brian, what is Holacracy, and how did you develop it?
Brian Robertson: I think you can best think of it as a social technology for purposeful
organization. I think we often dont think of organizations as having a social technology
that runs them, but of course they do. Any organization is built on some framework of how
us humans show up and work together. When I say social technology, I mean something
pretty deep the core operating system of how the organization works. How power flows,
how decisions are made, how communication happens, who has the authority to decide
what, and when. Were used to these organizations today which are top-down,
command-and-control paradigms. We often think that we dont really have a choice; that
thats the only way to organize. But its not; its just one power structure that could be in
place.
At its core, what Holacracy is, is a different social technology. It embodies some different
principles than what we see in the world today, commonly, and it provides some new
capacities. Just like when you upgrade the operating system on your computer, from DOS
to Windows, or Windows to Mac, perhaps, you get new capacity. Our organizations are
running with an operating system, a core power structure, organizational structures, that
really emerged and matured about a century ago, in their roughly current form. Thats
pretty old technology. Holacracy is a new technology, and we can get into some of the new
capacities it offers as we dive in further. But thats a broad frame.
Marilyn Hamilton: When we were thinking about how to frame this conference of
looking at the future of the city, the idea, the metaphor of creating a new operating system
for the city came up. Having you here to share the social technology of Holacracy is vital to
our understanding. Weve been exploring energy in different ways, and weve framed
the city as a living system. Can you explain how Holacracy manages life sustaining energy
for organizations?
Brian Robertson: Let me ask a rhetorical question to start. If you imagine a typical city,
and imagine all the many people going to work, and all the many organizations in that city,
how often do you think people go into work and have a work day where they sense
something thats off, or thats constraining that organization from being the best it can
be, from expressing some useful purpose in the world. Maybe, a process that leaves
something falling through the cracks or something thats just not getting done as good as it
could be, or whatever. Its a common experience; we probably have this experience many
times in any given work day, on average. We go in and see little things that could be better.
The sad truth is, in most organizations today, theres very little that most people can do
with those things they sense. In Holacracy we call this sensing tension. If you look at the
root of tension, its tendere from the Latin meaning to stretch. When we experience
tension in organizations, its a stretching between where we are, and where we could be.
We might judge this as a problem, or a bad thing, but really its just the sense that were
here, and we could be there. Kind of like a rubber band stretched between two points.
Theres energy there. Theres a lot of energy there, if we can harness it.
You speak of life-sustaining energies, and to me, a lot of that is what we sense internally
when we sense this tension that things could be better than they are could be further
forward, further along somehow. Yet in most organizations, theres very little that most
people can do with the tensions they sense. Ive been in the CEO seat in organizations, and
we like to think the leaders at the top, the CEOs, can process any tension, do anything with
anything they sense to move the organization forward, but the sad truth is, even in that
top seat, youre in a world of overwhelming complexity, and theres still very little even
you can do, sometimes, with all the things that you sense could be better than they are.
What were missing - this capacity to sense tension, to sense a gap between where we are
and where we could be really comes down to human consciousness. Each of those many
millions of humans in a typical city, they are points of consciousness and theyre sensing
things that could be better. If we dont harness those tensions into meaningful change,
were losing one of the greatest sources of energy that we have available to us.
With Holacracy, the goal of this system, social technology, is powered by human
consciousness. Its powered by our capacity to sense and process tensions. One of the
goals is: any tensions sensed by anyone, anywhere in the company, has a place to go to get
rapidly and reliably processed into meaningful change. I dont know many organizations
in a typical city, or anywhere, that can genuinely say that. When you can do that, the
source of energy that youve unleashed is quite significant. When you can give everybody
in the organization the capacity to hold a purpose the purpose of the company and their
own purpose personally as well and show up in service of this organization, by their own
choice and free will, to help its purpose in the world, by using their full consciousness,
their full capacity, to sense and process whatever they sense into meaningful change. We
have a totally different way of energy flowing, and it changes some of the fundamental
nature of what were used to in organizations today.
Aside from the burnout we see, the apathy, the lack of motivation and engagement, its no
wonder when we show up in an environment and we cant really bring our full capacity
into that organization that it fails to spark our energy, our capacity. But when you can
show up in an organization and really bring all your gifts, and have them used, to the
extent that they can help this organization express a purpose in the world, thats pretty
incredible. It all sounds great, but its not enough to hold that as a goal. As weve learned, it
does take a technology. It takes systems, structures, processes. Holacracy includes
meeting processes, decision making processes, governance processes, ways of structuring
the organization. Its a whole system shift from what were used to, to an entirely new
operating system, one which is, again, grounded in a different paradigm than what we
typically experience today.
Marilyn Hamilton: I love this idea of the tensions. When I hear that you can take a tension
and rapidly process it, I think of Aikido, taking this energy that feels like its coming at you,
and actually flow with it. Could you give an example of how tensions get resolved, in a real
situation? Say theres tension between two people who dont agree on how to resolve a
decision that needs to be made how would you release that tension?
Brian Robertson: There is no one way in Holacracy to process tensions. Theres multiple
pathways, and which one you want to use depends on the nature of the tensions. For
example, heres one general split the difference between governance and operations.
Many people in the organizational world have heard the metaphor of working in vs.
working on the organization. It comes from a book, E-Myth, and it talks about how a lot
of entrepreneurs and organizational leaders fall into a pitfall, where, especially in smaller
organizations, they get so stuck working in their business, getting the work done,
executing what needs to happen, that the fail to adequately focus on working on the
business. Or stepping back and looking at the structure, figuring out how things work
around here. Not the specific day-to-day tasks, but generally how do things flow through
this business? How do the different roles interconnect, processes, decision making those
are all working on the business. In most organizations, theres no disciplined process for
working on the business. So its no wonder we get stuck just getting the work done in
front of us. Its all we can do. But when we do that, we have no consciousness going
towards structuring a better approach for the organization. Or if we do, its in giant
restructurings that happen every 18 months or whatever, and, of course, they get it wrong,
and we live with the structure for a while, realize its wrong, then just get it wrong again.
In Holacracy we recognize these two domains: governance and operations. Operations is
about working in the business. Governance is about working on the business. In
Holacracy, each one has a different way of processing tensions. For governance, we have
governance meetings. Its a very disciplined, structured meeting process that, as inputs,
take tensions about how things work around here, and process them into some kind of
clarity of structure how things work. Versus operational decisions, operational meetings,
and a lot of operations happen day-to-day getting the work done. Operations is about
processing tensions into actions: what are we going to do? Clear work.
Let me give an example. Imagine youre building a website, and thinking about what
colours to use and how should the information be structured. Thats an operational
question youre asking. What are we going to do? What decision do we make? The
governance question behind it is: Who makes that decision? With what authority? Who do
they have to integrate input from? Who dont they? Can they just dictate, this is the way
its going to be, and others have to follow along with that, if theyre also working in
similar areas? Or not? The governance questions arent about which decisions to make, its
about who makes the decision no even about a person, but rather about the functions or
roles of the organization, within what limits.
If you look at those two areas, we often get sucked right in to the what decision should we
make, the operational realm. What Holacracy provides, first, is a channel to clarify the
power structure, if you will. Otherwise we end up with long, painful meetings where were
trying to build consensus or buy-ins with others, because were not really sure who makes
the decision. Or we end up with an over-involved boss who steps in and makes decisions
for everybody, because of that. All of that, to me, is a symptom of lack of clarity of the
governance. One of the main ways that tensions get processed in Holacracy, when theyre
about the governance, when youre feeling, I think we should reorganize our Home page,
we should put the information in a different way, if you dont know who has the authority
to make that decision, clearly, and the boss isnt the answer if everything defaults back
to the boss, were not going to get many decisions made if you dont know who exactly
has that authority, then you have unclear governance. And if that person doesnt know
whether they can make that decision, or who they need to get input from, then you dont
have clarity of governance. With something like that, Holacracy provides a governance
meeting channel, which has a pretty cool integrative process that gives everyone a voice,
without what I call the tyranny of consensus. Anyone can bring in a tension. Everyone
else gets a chance to integrate anything that needs integrating into that resolution, that
proposal, and in the end you get clarity on who has the authority to make the decision.
And then, not everybody needs to agree. If we know that this role needs to use their best
judgment, even in the presence of disagreement, to make the best decision they can, with
input from these roles, and within these constraints; once you know that clearly, then you
can go do the work, and you dont need the painful meetings and painful consensus-
seeking, and all this stuff we have in the way in organizations, because you can just go get
the work done, with clarity. If youre not sure what to do, then you want an operational
meeting, and theres other ways in that space to process tensions into clear outcomes and
actions were going to take. But really, the whole thing is about generating clarity of
structure, of work, and the meeting processes are integrative in their nature.
What you have at the end, if you follow this through, is a distributed authority system. So
rather than your typical hierarchy, with bosses who theoretically delegate authority, but
in reality, rarely do, Holacracy in its full expression, there is no CEO. In my organization,
HolacracyOne, when you read my bio, Im not a CEO at this point because there is no CEO.
There are no bosses, no managers. There are a whole pool of partners; everybody who
works in the organization is a partner, that is showing up in a legally, Holacracy-powered
partnership. Everyone has a voice in the governance of that process, and no one person is
CEO, leader, boss, whatever. Rather, everyone is a leader for their area, for their roles,
with real authority. Authority that trumps anyone elses authority, in their roles. And clear
responsibilities, connections, where they have to integrate with other roles. Just like in our
modern societies we have a legislative process to sort all that out. One that is purpose-
driven, so its not governance by the people, of the people, for the people. With Holacracy
in play, its governance of the organization, through the people, for the purpose.
Thats the endpoint to it. Once you have a true Holacracy-powered system installed, with
this distributed authority structure at play, then everyone, anyone who senses a tension,
has a governance process they can go through, to clarity what are the connections, what
can we count on each other for, how do things work around here. Or an operational
process to clarify what work needs to get done, and to go do it.
Marilyn Hamilton: Im tempted to follow on with another question related to the city, but
I think it would be useful for our audience to hear an example. Your framing of the
governance of the organization through the people, and for the purpose, is a very elegant
way of summarizing what you just shared with us. Could you give us an illustration?
Brian Robertson: One example is my own organization. We have all our partners here in
town; were kind of virtual, but we come together every six weeks. Weve just been going
through some of our governance processes. One of the things that came up recently was
that I had a tension. I lead our Holacracy trainings, and I often refer people to our website.
Our website has some really great information about our trainings on it, but not as much
information about our licensing program, and our consulting services. So theres a tension.
I really think the website should have more information that on it.
The first thing I do with that is, we have a little software tool that shows you the skeletal
workings of our organization. It shows you what are all the various structures and roles,
and who has what authority, and all that. So the first thing I do is I look in there and ask,
who is accountable for this? Who has the accountability, and thus the authority, to update
our website and to get information about these things on there? I find we have a web
director role as part of our organization. So I go talk to that guy in that role. He says, well,
yeah, Id love to update it, but nobodys giving me information. Nobodys telling me what
the services are. Thats in a different part of the company, and hes not sure.
So I realize that the other part of the company, nobody knows whos accountable for
writing the actual marketing copy for our licensing or consulting programs, which is why
the copy thats out there is four years old. Nobodys accountable for it, nobody knows. This
kind of thing happens in organizations all the time. Its a specific point, Im feeling tension
about it, and what do I do? In a typical company, I might go to the boss, or build buy-in, or
something around trying to build consensus on what we should do. Now I dont have to do
that. I go to our governance meeting and I bring a proposal that we take one of the existing
roles we have in our licensing department, and I make that role accountable for drafting
marketing copy for the website guy. I make the website guy accountable for keeping up-
to-date information out on the web.
What Im doing is actually defining the process flows in the organization; defining the
expectations that we can count on each other for. Through that process, everybody else
has a voice and objections can come up. Objections are very specific things with some
rules in the process around them. If somebody sees a reason why my proposal, of making
these two roles accountable for writing copy and keeping it up to date on the website, if
anyone sees any reasons why thats going to move us backwards, or cause harm, they can
raise an objection and were going to integrate that objection. In this case I think there was
one that came up, and we did, and we ended up with two clear new accountabilities in the
system. With those clear, I now know I can count on those people to do it, and those
people know they have the authority to do it. They dont need to get anyone elses
permission. It is their authority to make a decision, make a judgment call, integrate
whatever information they can, and run with it.
Then we go to an operational meeting and I bring up a request for a project, or an outcome
to work towards, which is: all the informations updated on the website. We capture that
project, were now monitoring it transparently, every meeting we see progress towards it,
and the people that have the authority know they have the authority, and are taking
actions on getting it done, and its all starting to happen and shift. Thats just one simple
example.
The interesting thing is, that example becomes something that anyone in the organization
can do, wherever they are in the organization, any tension they sense. Its so minor; its an
everyday occurrence of sensing, attention, and processing. To either clear structure, or
clear work.
Were working with a company in San Francisco run by some Twitter founders, which is a
cool high-tech company to work with. The same thing; were seeing that, as is typical, the
first handful of meetings, theres a whole lot of tensions that come up, because theyve had
nowhere to go to get processed. So one of the first meetings we have brings a flood of
tensions into the space. Things theyve been sitting on, feeling pain about, maybe chatting
around the water cooler or whatever, but they havent been able to get clarity on how to
resolve them. In this case it was really cool; I went through one of their meetings a few
weeks back, and within a span of maybe 90-120 minute governance meeting, we had
probably half a dozen tensions that had been sitting around and plaguing them for months,
processed into clarity. So they knew exactly who was accountable for resolving what, who
had what authority to make which decisions to move them forward, and you could feel the
energy released. Going back to your question about life-sustaining energy, you could feel
the energy released by taking these frustrations and turning them into a better way of
working together.
Marilyn Hamilton: I know that Ive more or less decided, once I encountered Holacracy,
that I never wanted to work on a project again where it wasnt part of the process.
Because it really does help resolve the whole decision making flow. The thing that strikes
me thats almost a fractal of how Im thinking about the city, is that its purpose-driven.
You actually are having all of the process youve derived from the purpose of the
organization. I know that in human systems, the city is the most complex organization of
humans; its a system of systems of systems. I think over time, cities are going to actually
discover that they do have a purpose. Im sure there are many cities who can see
themselves in that role, but I imagine that on our Planet of Cities, its possible for
individual cities to discover what is it that they contribute to the larger whole, the larger
living system. I know, Brian, that you and I toyed with the idea of taking Holacracy to the
scale of the city. Im curious if youve seen that happen anywhere, or if youve seen, say, a
City Hall, within their own city structures and systems, actually be courageous enough to
start using a set of Holacracy principles?
Brian Robertson: Weve seen just a few beginning examples. We had one department in
the D.C. government running on Holacracy a few years back. I know theres a team within
the European Commission that runs the EU thats also running with Holacracy. But, again,
its just a team. I think theres still a lot more to be done at the governmental level. But
there are huge potentials. The structure that Holacracy uses is a very fractal
organizational structure. It structures an organization kind of like a human body, a bunch
of different autonomous cells, distributed authority among each cell. Each does its own
governance and they group together into broader cells or organs. Its a very organic
structure for the organization that embraces distributed control, distributed authority.
Those governance and operational processes I mentioned, theyre distributed as well.
Every team does them. When you have that fractal structure, whether youre talking about
a small company or one with 10,000 people, it scales really well.
Even beyond the company, Holacracy can scale beyond a single organization quite well.
We already see this happening. HolacracyOne has a licensing model, so we license other
organizations, qualified service firms, to use the Holacracy brand and tools to spread the
social technology to their clients. That creates an ecosystem that currently consists of 13
firms doing Holacracy work all over the world. Instead of being 13 independent firms,
weve interlinked them together. Each firm appoints a representative, which becomes a
channel for processing tensions into HolacracyOne, which is governing the ecosystem. And
vice-versa, our organization appoints somebody into each of theirs as a channel for
flowing tensions. Its a bi-directional linking structure, the same structure we use within a
company between different teams these bi-directional double links. Now we see it
actually governing an ecosystem. So were taking these different licensees and wrapping
them together, and because were legally Holacracydriven, its actually grounded right
down to our legal bylaws where every one of our licensees has a voice to flow tensions
and process them within our organizational ecosystem.
If you look at an example like that, and ask what that could mean at a broader city level,
thats pretty cool. If we can actually flow and process tensions, and thats really what it
comes down to, across organizations, at the level of one firm, up to its ecosystem, all to
align with the various purposes at play, at every level, thats a powerful capacity to adapt,
which is really what tension processing does. It gives you agility and adaptability to
whatevers arising in the consciousness of the system.
Marilyn Hamilton: This resonates strongly with our thinking about the city as a living
system. Thank you for the ecosystem example, and the hope that what I saw as a
possibility by looking at the governance within an organization; that maybe someday we
might have governance defined in a city as, of the city, through the people, for the
purpose of the city. Thank you for coming today to bring this framing for organizations,
because that seems to me a place that we can start, is within individual organizations, as
you started. And now youre spreading it; its a positive virus Id like to see go in many
directions.
Id like to now turn to Brett, and bring him into the conversation, and ask him to share a
tool hes been developing through Integral Leadership, and would probably integrate well
with this Holacracy approach, because it involves communication. Brett, can you start by
framing how you think about Integral Leadership and how you want to introduce a tool
that could help us with city stakeholders and communication.
Brett Thomas: Thanks Marilyn. Its an interesting and wonderful challenge. Im very
inspired by many things Brian said, and I think we can tie in nicely. Brian and I have
collaborated in the past, and I love his model, especially his term dynamic steering,
which I use a lot now the teaching of Integral Leadership. I look forward to comparing our
ideas. Brian mentioned a few things I can use to build on Integral Leadership. It used to
take us, going back ten years, about 12 months to teach Integral Leadership. Of course,
thats a very intensive course. Over the years we got so we could explain it in a full-day
workshop, in terms of giving the overview. The basic and perhaps the most effective parts
of it can be done in about an hour, but Ive never actually done it in the time Ive got today,
so Im up for the challenge.
Essentially, what is the high-level overview of Integral Leadership? Lets build on what
Brian talked about. He talked about power structures, about how do humans organize,
where does leadership reside, who has the authority, how does leadership influence
individual and collective expectations and behaviors? He also talked about this idea of
tension; tensions about how things are now, and how things could be better. I wanted to
start with this idea of authority, and where does leadership reside, and how different
humans think about how things could be better. For those of us that know anything about
integral approaches and integral psychology, we know that even though these are crucial
questions, youre going to get different answers from different people. Therein lies a
tremendous amount of complexity. Certainly within an organization like my firm and
Brians firm works with, in terms of consulting and coaching and organizational design
and development. But also in a city, which is an organization made up of lots of other
organizations, and lots of stakeholders.
The reality is that theres a staggering amount of complexity because different
stakeholders in the city, everybody from citizens, to educators, to city managers, to
business people. Each of these people can have a different sense, going back to what Brian
said, about how to make things better. So how to you define better? How do you define a
social system, or an educational system, or the laws about business, or the expectations
about how we handle our natural resources in a city? The way that individual people in a
city define whats better depends on their value system, on whats important to them.
So when you bring this way of understanding about what matters to people, whats
important, lets be commonsensical. The environmental ecologist person has different
things that are important than the real estate developer, whos trying to get a license to
remove a section of natural ecosystem and put in a shopping mall. And that might be
different than a person whos focused on child development and education, and someone
else may be very concerned about something else. So people have different values, and
when you add the element of values, what matters to someone, whats important, its
going to determine how they define how things could be better, the tension between
what is and what they want.
The real estate developer wants less regulation; their better is more freedom to build
more malls. The environmental ecologist thinks better is less malls and more trees. So
this is a function of each of their values. So values bring a huge amount of complexity to
any human organization, especially a city. And values are not homogenous. But whats cool
is that even though theyre really diverse, and there is complexity, there are patterns, as
you well know, Marilyn, as a complexity thinker. There are patterns in complexity. While
the values in the city are diverse, theyre not random. In fact, there are four predominant
value systems, which we like to refer to as worldviews that we see, individually and in
combination, in typical people in a city, and in typical groups of people, organizations, and
cultures, in a city.
So if we recognize these four predominant value systems, this becomes an unlocking key.
What weve found in our work over the last 12 years, building on the shoulders of giants,
many of our fellow colleagues have been exploring value systems, what motivates people,
and how to communicate to different value systems, and leadership styles, and so on, far
longer than I have. But weve had a lot of success in the last 12 years teaching leaders how
to understand how each of these different value systems has a different set of priorities, a
different sense of how to make things better, and a different sense of meaningful change.
Brian talked about meaningful change well, meaningful change for the real estate
developer might be more malls, and meaningful change for the environmental ecologist
might be more trees. So leaders in the city, at all levels of government, education, social,
non-profit and business, its very complex, its very frustrating, and it can be incredibly
difficult when you have a mess of all these different people. So what we teach in the area
of Integral Leadership is, we teach leaders how to understand that people with different
worldviews respect different styles of leadership and need to be communicated with in
different ways in order to treat them with respect.
There is a dialect for each value system or worldview that people recognize and
appreciate, so this is what Integral Leadership boils down to: recognizing that people,
legitimately as they should, have different worldviews, and for each of the different
worldviews theres a certain values dialect. If you dont speak that dialect adequately,
youre likely not to be well heard or respected, much less trusted. Beyond that, theres a
leadership style that weve all seen, everyone here has already been exposed to and seen
pretty much all of these leadership styles.
But until the last decade or so when were really started to crack the code on this
leadership question, we didnt know which leadership styles would work well with
different people. Now weve put the two together into a framework that we call the
Leadership Rosetta Stone. The metaphor of the Leadership Rosetta Stone originally helped
modern researchers understand Egyptian hieroglyphics, because it had the same message
translated into three languages, or dialects. In the same way, the Leadership Rosetta Stone
shows these four predominant leadership styles that we see in human culture, and then
the worldviews/value systems, and links them together. People with a certain worldview
are going to trust, respond to, and benefit from, a particular style of leadership. The real
train wreck happens when we mix them up; when we use the wrong leadership or
communication style with people with a different worldview, and it creates lots of
unnecessary interpersonal conflict and failure to communicate.
Thats the promise. So how does that fit with your understanding of where we need to go
in order to be able to lead the future of the city and how were going to organize, Marilyn?
Marilyn Hamilton: I think youve raised some wonderful and relevant points. In being
able to gain any insight into the patterns in the city, you remarked on how complex it is.
Its not only a system of organizational systems, but theres all those individuals
interacting, theres a whole holarchy of interconnected, nested systems. So if we were able
to understand those four key worldviews and the four styles that interact with them, Im
imagining we might even be able to reduce some of the tensions that Brian was talking
about before we even got into the decision mode. Can I ask you to get a bit more granular?
Can you tell us what those worldviews are, and how they respond to the leadership style
thats most appropriate to them?
Brett Thomas: Absolutely. Im making available a couple of tools listeners can download
for todays sessions. One of those tools is a document called Introducing the Leadership
Rosetta Stone, and it explains it. It has a single page has an image of the Rosetta Stone
thats been divided up into these four styles of leadership, these universal styles of
leadership, and you can follow along. The other tool is called the Universal Translator,
which has a reference sheet that describes each worldview, the core motivational drivers,
their primary concerns, and how to communicate, using those different dialects.

The Leadership Rosetta Stone shows us is something weve intuited all along, but we
didnt exactly have names for, and we didnt have a clear-cut definition and description
that was well-vetted by psychologists and sociologists. We have that now.
Ill now describe the leadership styles. Lets begin with one of the most familiar,
authoritarian leadership. Weve all had family members, or a school teacher or principal,
or if you were in the armed forces in the enlisted ranks, or you had a boss who used to be
in the infantry. Theres a style of leadership called authoritarian leadership. Its basically
that the person with authority leads via chain of command. So it tends to be pretty black-
and-white, you comply with the established rules, and you meet the requirements, and
you conform to the expectations and behavior that the authority prescribes, right? Thats
authoritarian leadership.
Some of us think, ugh, I dont really like that. I like something a lot more flexible, not
nearly so black-and-white or bureaucratic. Yet, there are many, many people who totally
appreciate that style of leadership. There are many followers, many employees, many
citizens, that really like to be told whats right and whats wrong, these are the rules. This
is how you function in society, by following and conforming to these rules, and you have a
predictable sense of punishment and reward, and this is the basis of human civilization,
you know?
There are situations in which authoritarian leadership is very appropriate and helpful.
Then there are other situations where authoritarian leadership can be very off-putting.
With different people in different situations, people may not trust it or appreciate it. I
think we all can relate to that.
Another style were all familiar with, certainly those of us whove worked in the corporate
world, or in business, we call strategic leadership. Whether or not youve heard the phrase,
youll recognize the style of leadership. The person with the most expertise leads, via
strategic planning and tangible incentives. Weve got a goal, we want to increase our
profits, we want to increase our market share, we want to accomplish building this
successful performing team, or whatever it happens to be. Were going to break it down
into its component parts, were going to incentivize people to hit or exceed those goals. So
this style of leadership is very strategic, very goal-oriented, highly competitive. And again,
works great in a lot of situations. Lots of organizations, sales organizations, businesses,
etc., this style of leadership is very effective. However, once again, there are situations in
which this is either confusing, puzzling, off-putting, or even offensive to some
organizations. Some people dont want that style of competitive, goal-oriented type of
leadership. But thats strategic leadership, very common in businesses.
A third universal style of leadership and these can occur in isolation, or they can be
combined you can see combinations, once you learn to recognize them. A third is called
collaborative leadership. Collaborative leadership is leadership that is not vested in any
single person. Rather, consensus-based, self-managed teams lead themselves. There are
many liberal arts universities, many non-profits, many creative shops, ad agencies,
marketing firms, alternative sustainability-driven organizations, with employees, and
teams, and executives, that dont like to think of leadership as being a single person, or
some kind of black-and-white, authoritarian list of rules, but theres really no single leader.
Theres just leadership that emerges in the group. By gaining consensus, or by having
different perspectives be heard, and this is a wonderful form of leadership. And it can be
incredibly irritating to people who are looking for more authoritarian or strategic
leadership styles.
Each of these styles of leadership is useful and helpful in certain contexts, with certain
people. And can be very off-putting and frustrating with the wrong people.
The fourth kind gets a bad rap. Its the style of leadership thats considered very old-
fashioned, even more old-fashioned than authoritarian. Its oftentimes not appreciated,
and yet, here again, there are situations in which this style is actually appropriate and
helpful. This style of leadership is called autocratic leadership. The person with the power
leads via command and control. Theres one person, he or she is the most powerful person,
and thats who calls the shots. Its my way or the highway. Its an approach that tightly
controls information, rewards compliance and punishes disloyalty. And yet again, on the
battlefield, perhaps in certain situations with emergency response teams, firemen, there
are many situations in construction, on construction crews, and manual labour, heavy
equipment operators. Theres one big boss or foreman, and theyre telling everybody what
to do. And you do it the way he or she says.
The most fascinating thing about authoritarian leadership, strategic leadership,
collaborative leadership and autocratic leadership, that Ive been implying, is that its not
random. Its not that you can walk into any situation, and use any style of leadership and
have it work. It all depends on the people involved, and the circumstances. This was the
big breakthrough in the Leadership Rosetta Stone. As well as the work being done at
Integral Institute, Stagen Leadership Institute, Spiral Dynamics, many studies of values
systems and so on. You can start to link up worldviews with these leadership styles.
Marilyn Hamilton: I find, Brett, that youve painted a picture thats easy to visualize. I can
imagine every time youve described one of those styles, somebody that I know who fits
into that particular style. I can also think of situations like youve described, where you
might not like an autocratic leadership per se, but when we have emergency response
teams that need people to be directive in an autocratic process, and that theyre actually
required to have command and control in order to respond. I can see that theres room for
all those different leadership styles. Im curious now if you can relate that to what matters
to people, their worldviews.
Brett: Yes, its so fascinating, because people can be so puzzling and frustrating
sometimes. Because its like, Why do they think that way? Why does this person think
more trees are better, and this other person thinks more malls are better? And depending
on what side you come in on, you tend to view the other side as not getting it. What
Integral teaches us is that everybody gets it in their own way. And what it is, is their
worldview. This is incredibly clarifying to know, that theres not a million different
worldviews, theres four. Theres four basic worldviews we see in developed cities in a
developed world. And sometimes you can see them in combination in a single person. But
once you understand those four worldviews, its so clarifying. You begin to understand
that different people value different things, and define better and meaningful
improvement, to use Brians excellent terms, in different ways.
These worldviews are listed on the Universal Translator Reference Sheet below.

Lets start with the one we can use as our basis which is the Modern worldview. The
Modern worldview is; the world is a fairly level playing field, of unlimited possibility
where winners takes all. Its a modern world view its scientific, materialistic worldview
we are very familiar with it, its the modern age. People with the Modern worldview have
a set of values distinct from other worldviews. Achievement, success, status, and define
progress in terms of economic progress, and in terms of more opportunity, getting ahead,
living the good life, advancing, recognition. People with the Modern worldview share
these core values. Sometimes we refer to people who hold this Modern worldview as
achievers.
The Modern worldview certainly has been popular for the past period of time in modern
history, but the Modern worldviews not the only world view. Theres also a Traditional
worldview. There are many people today who hold a Traditional worldview. For these
people, the world is an ordered existence under control of a higher authority, or ultimate
truth. People with a Traditional worldview value stability, order, security, self-sacrifice,
and truth as defined by the tradition in which I was raised. So whatever part of the world
you live in, Im here in Texas, whether youre here or in Iran, a Traditional worldview is
identical. Therell be differences in details, about the religion or local cultures, but theyll
both value living the One True Way, and be concerned with fitting in, fulfilling duties, and
preserving tradition and doing the right thing, as defined by those Traditional values.
Their goals are to faithfully follow the rules and dictates of the respected authorities. And
the respected authority is the authority of the tradition. So thats the Traditional
worldview, and we call people who hold this worldview traditional. A traditionalist,
having traditional values. For those of us in Western culture, this is traditional family
values; its exactly what it sounds like. People with a traditional worldview trust and will
follow a certain style of leadership, one of the four, and not the others.
Those of us who live in the developed world and who have been exposed to many types of
culture have come to recognize that theres something called a Post-Modern worldview.
Modern vs. Post-Modern. The Post-Modern worldview can be described as the world is a
diverse web of interrelationships, where humans and other life depend on each other for
survival and wellbeing. Thats the Post-Modern worldview. People who have a Post-
Modern worldview tend to have core values of things like personal growth and
development, connection, diversity, contribution. They tend to be concerned with things
like making a difference, cultivating harmonious interpersonal relationships, and fostering
equality and fairness. Historically speaking, the human rights movement, and many of
these developments in society came out of when this Post-Modern worldview emerged.
So what you can see here is a Modern worldview, Traditional worldview, Post-Modern
worldview, but theres one other. This is called the Imperial worldview. There are still
many places on the planet and many cultures, even in our own neighborhoods, in our own
communities. There are many people, perhaps in the inner-city, perhaps in rural parts of
town, perhaps in maybe the rougher part of town, maybe the bar district, or where a lot of
folks do manual labour kind of cultures; theres this Imperial worldview. Which
historically emerged on the planet before the Traditional worldview, and it will always be
with us, because societies and cultures have these different worldviews.
The Imperial worldview would be described like this: The world is a jungle, where the
strongest and most cunning survive, gain power, and satisfy their desires. We all know
people like this. Ive got aunts and uncles like this. I dont know whether you do or not. I
come across people with this worldview all the time. People with an Imperial worldview
we sometimes refer to as being power-centric. Folks who are power-centric have core
motivational drivers and values of things like: respect, personal power, and not following
the rules like the more conformist, traditional folks, but actually not having to follow the
rules, not being constrained by conventional society. But rather to live outside of
conventional society, and to be unconventional. Theyre concerned with things like being
top dog, breaking free from limits, gratifying desires, living life on ones own terms. Their
goals include things like gaining control, being strong and breaking free from limits. Again,
we all know people like this who have this worldview.
So from all these worldviews, each of these folks is going to trust a different kind of
leadership, look for a different type of leader, define authority in different ways, have a
different sense of expectations and behaviors of a good leader, and they will also define,
differently, how things could be better. To link them up explicitly, people with a Modern
worldview, what we call achievers, who seek opportunity to advance toward their goals,
theyre going to trust Strategic leadership. Theyre going to trust the leader with the most
expertise, who can, in a very strategic and rational way, lead us toward achieving our
goals, having more success. This style of leadership works great in sales departments,
professional services firm, innovation-driven companies, senior management positions, in
roles that require advanced levels of education. Achievers are going to want to trust and
follow Strategic leadership.
People with a Traditional worldview are very authoritarian oriented. They look to the
authority to tell them what things mean, whats right, whats wrong, and so on. They will
trust Authoritarian leadership. Theyre looking to the person with authority; thats either
a person in authority because they have the position, or the person with perceived moral
authority, that perception of moral authority as defined by Traditional values. Those folks
value stability and conformity and they rely on people in roles of positional or perceived
moral authority for direction and meaning. Theyre going to look for and trust an
authoritarian leadership style, and not the others.
People with a Post-Modern worldview we sometimes refer to as being pluralistic, or
having a pluralistic worldview. They like to refer to themselves as having a Progressive
worldview. We also sometimes use the term Relativistic worldview. In any case, what are
they looking for? Theyre going to look for a leader who treats other people as equals.
Where a leader isnt coming in like the Big Boss with all the answers, the leader is
someone who asks questions, and who perceives everybody as being a leader. Naturally
then, a person with a Post-Modern worldview is going to look for Collaborative leaders.
Where leadership is not vested in a single person, but it emerges via consensus. So
collaborative leaders invite peoples perceptions, feelings and intuition, via discussion and
dialogue, trying to work toward consensus, and collaborate toward the common good.
Some of us are saying, But doesnt that sound like the best type of leadership? Thats what
I want. No! Thats not what people with Modern, or Traditional, or Imperial worldviews
want. To people with those other worldviews, Collaborative leadership is weak, is overly-
process. Its just lots of talk, no action. So which style of leadership is good all depends
on our worldview.
Finally, we talked about people with an Imperial worldview who are more power-centric;
theyre looking for the strongest leader. Theyre looking for the leader that is the most
powerful. People that have a power-centric mindset are going to trust Autocratic
leadership. The person with the power leads via chain of command. So that type of leader
is going to impose their will through reputation, fear and respect. Theyre going to tightly
control information, reward compliance and punish disloyalty. That works great with
combat units, physical labourers, etc. This is an underlying pattern of human meaning-
making that defines interpersonal relationships, and determines what people in the city
look for in their leaders. And if we are Integral leaders in a city, if we can recognize that a
particular group of people has a power-centric worldview, achiever mindset, or
collaborative approach, then we can start to appreciate how theyre going to look for
different leaders, and what we can do as Integral leaders is, instead of being a one-trick
pony, where, hey, I grew up around authoritarian leadership, or strategic leadership, and
thats just what good leadership is, and people who are just like me? Hey, I can motivate
and influence people that think just like me. But people that dont think like me, I cant.
Thats the difference.
Marilyn Hamilton: What I hear you saying is something thats a very powerful framing
for the complexity of the city. That leadership cant be a one-size-fits-all. Brett, with your
laying out these four worldviews and four styles (and I have to give you full compliments
because you mentioned that it usually takes a much longer time do to that, and I think you
covered a lot of ground very rich for trying to understand the complexity of the city). So
Brian, weve listened to Brett present these four worldviews and four styles, Im
wondering how you would see that Holacracy can actually embrace within organizations
all of those styles? Or is Holacracy actually demanding yet a fifth worldview and style, and
thats where it emerges from?
Brian Robertson: Its a great question. One of the fascinating things about Holacracy,
when I see it in play, it creates a ground through the structures and systems where
everybody can show up with whatever worldview, value system, they have themselves,
and bring the best of whatever it is they can offer from that space, as long as it serves the
purpose. To me, in terms of Holacracy, thats what integrates everything else is purpose.
Not purpose as in whats my purpose?; whats your purpose?; whats the collective
human purpose? It is the purpose of the organization. Holacracy requires getting clear on
what the purpose of the organization is. When we get a good process for sorting out what
is serving that purpose, or increasing the capacity to express that purpose, versus what
may be more about us personally, my values, my interests which are fine, too, but not to
be brought in and dominate the organization. What Holacracy does, which is so beautiful
to me, is sort those two out, so that everyone can show up with their values, capacities,
wherever they are, and bring the best of them. But the process screens and filters to
whats relevant to the purpose. In doing that, it sends a message. It doesnt force anyone to
be different than they are.
When I see people showing up in this, one of the beauties of it for me is that it just
embraces people, wherever they are in their own development, in their own journey, in
their own values. It embraces them and says, Clearly, if you choose to show up here, its to
express this organizations purpose. And you can bring your full self to do that, but you
cannot dominate it with your own stuff. Then it sorts that out in real-time. What that does
is to harmonize these different value systems. I see that a lot. And theres a lot of different
ways to slice things. I love the model Brett brought up, and you can also slice things
around different types of people, and different types of information we tune into. Theres a
lot of different models out there. All show a different slice of our human capacity to
perceive, tune in, select and filter our reality, and bring it forward. Holacracy is kind of a
meta-level system. Its not operating from any one of those. Rather, its holding a neutral
space where all can arise to the extent that they serve the purpose.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats a beautiful way of framing something I often get asked about
Integral Cities. They think maybe what Im talking about is some great utopia that at some
point the citys going to levitate into some kind of uniform worldview and set of values. I
try to dispel that illusion very quickly, because I think there are two reasons that thats not
likely to happen in our cities any time soon. The first is that worldviews and development
happen naturally across an individuals lifetime, so you actually go through developmental
stages were born into, having to learn how to be human. So we can look very quickly
around the city and see how different generations express their values differently. You can
look within your own lifetime backwards and see that when you were a kid, you saw the
world much differently than when you were a teenager, or young adult, or as you are now,
a mature adult.
That kind of natural, living, organic system is going to continue with us, I think, for a long
time, maybe forever. The other thing thats happened in cities is that, especially in North
America, where I believe all three of us reside, and certainly you can see this in northern
Europe, is that the whole world has come to each city.
It used to be that there were fairly homogenous cultures and structures in cities. You
could even predict how organizations would work. Thinking about Bretts reference to
Imperial, I think of China, which had the worlds first civil service with a meritocracy
there. It had already embedded into it the idea that you could actually measure peoples
performance. But when we look at todays modern cities, we see that there are many
tribes that have come from all the four corners of the world, so all the cultures and
worldviews Bretts talking about dont just come from homogenous sources, but from
where they originated, from people who were born in India or Scandinavia, or Australia,
or Japan, or Texas. All of a sudden were in the same organization, trying to work together;
in the same city, trying, as Brett was saying, to satisfy whats important to us; and try,
actually, as a complex adaptive system within the city, to make heads or tails of it. So
thanks Brian for bringing that meta-view of Holacracy. And thank you, Brett for that very
granular, but useful, look at the four worldviews and four leadership styles. Do we have
any questions from the audience?
Eric Troth: One of the things Im trying to get a good sense of is; our life conditions at this
time in history are demanding something more thats pushing us to a new level of
organization. We see these four different leadership styles and worldviews, yet at the
same time the complexity at this time in history is driving something more. Im seeing
Holacracy as a response to that. Im curious if you can flesh that out a little more, in terms
of the complexities of life at this time, and how things are inadequate at some of these
other levels of development. For instance Brian, you refer to the tyranny of consensus,
which in a developmental frame of a Post-Modern worldview, gravitates toward
consensus. Yet we dont have the luxury of taking in so many different worldviews. We
need those that are necessary and sufficient to move the organizations purpose forward.
Brian Robertson: This kind of meta-capacity I mentioned about Holacracy points to
something else. Each of these different styles has gifts it brings, and also some blind spots
or limits to it. In the world today, the increasing complexity and uncertainty, the pace of
change, the interconnections the complexity of everything around us seems to be
increasing. More and more in todays organizations, were going to need all of those
different strengths at play. Ive worked in many organizations, as Im sure have others,
where it seemed like certain talents that they all biased for certain worldviews. And
others that were excluded or rejected. Like many of the non-profits I get to work with
have a predominant Post-Modern or Collaborative worldview. If that becomes a bias that
excludes others, you start losing something; you lose a speed of responsiveness,
sometimes. You can actually hide the purpose of the organization by it collapsing back
down to what do we, the people, want? In a way that then dominates some larger
purpose from emerging through us.
I think increasingly, when you see organizations that are not able to embrace all of this, its
a limit to how much they can response to todays world, and express a purpose in it. One
of the things I often find about Holacracy is that its easy to mistake it for coming from any
one, actually, of those worldviews, because it leaves a space that integrates all of them. So
Ill often find people, whatever worldview theyre coming from, whatever they most
resonate with, will first see Holacracy and say, Wow, this is great! If its a Post-Modern
space, theyll say, Wow! This really embraces people, it gives everyone a voice, it
distributes power Which it does, but it actually distributes and uses autocratic power
but distributed autocratic power, which is interesting. Anyway, theyll see what they love
in it. Then theyll get into practicing it some, or theyll learn more about it, and suddenly
therell be something thatll start challenging them. One of the things Ive learned and
warn people about now in our deep trainings, is: Whatever it is you most value, chances
are Holacracy will provide that for you in your organization, more than you even thought
possible. BUT it comes at a price. And the cost of that is that you must be equally
prepared to embrace its opposite.
So whatever it is you most value: giving everyone a voice; collaborative decision making;
excellence; responsiveness; agility; listening and responding to the market. Whatever it is
you most value, Holacracy probably does it better than the conventional operating system,
probably quite well. But the cost is; youve got to embrace these other polarities with it to
get them. In fact, if youre practicing Holacracy well, the beauty of it is, you dont have to
love these other polarities; you dont have to even understand them. The system holds it.
Its baked into the processes. To me, thats a critical capacity, because these worldviews
get pretty entrenched. We cant rely on a person suddenly flipping a switch and naturally
hold and harmonize all of them. I cant I dont know when Im getting stuck in my own
biases and blind spots. None of us do. No matter how much I develop my own
consciousness, capacity, and all of that, theres still the risk that Ill still get stuck
sometimes, as will everyone else. What Holacracy does is bake it into the structure of the
systems and processes; that hold up a mirror and dont let any of us get stuck and
dominate the organization. Theyll let us get stuck, but not dominate the organization with
it. Which means that everyone can show up and bring whatever it is they have thats
worthwhile for the purpose, they can contribute. I think thats an interesting point; were
dealing with all these different worldviews, and in a world that increasingly calls for more
capacities. The organizations that can embrace the best of all of these different capacities,
and others (however were slicing and dicing things), what we need is a space where
whatever the purpose is, whatever were trying to express or achieve in this organization,
anything valuable to that can show up and get harmonized and integrated. That takes a
really meta-level structure and system. Frankly, Ive never met a single leader who can
hold all that heroically. I think it has to be in the system, if you really want to get there.
Marilyn Hamilton: That makes a lot of sense Brian, that youre really calling forth this
larger system. As we were talking earlier today from design perspectives, it really strikes
me that even Mark DeKay was referencing what Brett was talking about, in the styles of
leadership, Mark was talking about styles of design, about worldviews of designers
themselves. I referenced the city as holding the whole world, and one way thats often
referred to these days is that the tribes of the world are here. Theres a new book out
related to tribal leadership, by Dave Logan. Can you comment on that, Brett?
Brett Thomas: Dave Logans book has been very popular. I think one of the reasons is that
his book talks about cultures. Its certainly not about Integral Leadership, so I can
differentiate the two. He talks about different cultures. He puts it on a hierarchy. Cultures
that are autocratic, rough-and-tumble, people are suspicious of one another, at its worst.
From there it might evolve into a culture that follows the rules, and is much more
conformist and a little more ethnocentric. Then it could evolve into a culture where people
are more strategic, and people are more competitive, and get a lot more done, and so on.
But that competitiveness ultimately evolves into a collaborative culture, which is the best.
Whats great about the book is that it gets people to really think about these different
cultures that are suspiciously sounding like the worldviews. Youll notice that when you
read the book. He did draw on Spiral Dynamics and value systems and Ken Wilbers
approaches. I think its good that hes popularizing and getting people to think about how
cultures can have these different value sets. But Ken and I very much disagree with Dave
Logans conclusions. From our point of view, each of these cultures - autocratic,
conformist, strategic and collaborative we dont see it as a hierarchy at all. Rather, we
see each of those cultures as being legitimate, having healthy and unhealthy versions. In a
fire department, you could have a healthy version of autocratic, and in the enlisted
services you could have a healthy version of authoritarian, and in a sales department you
could have a healthy version of strategic, and in a non-profit or ad agency you might have
a healthy version of collaborative. We diverge there. But there are different cultures, and
we need to respect and appreciate the differences in cultures, and leaders would do well
to read all kinds of books, including Tribal Leadership, to have a different appreciation of
how cultures show up, and how different cultures will tend to resonate with, and benefit
from different leadership. What Dave Logan and I completely agree on is that leaders that
are more versatile, that can create and appreciate different cultures, and use a versatile set
of leadership styles, are better. Tying back to something Brian talked about, I agree that
Holacracy is a structure, a set of rules that we can buy into and agree to follow. Whether
any of these worldviews that we have, if were willing to follow the rules, and if we believe
in the purpose of the organization, whether its a fire department, platoon, sales team, or
non-profit, if we buy into that, regardless of our worldview, Holacracy is a good thing.
In conclusion, I would build on one thing. Brian likes to use the term tyranny of
consensus, and thats right. With a very Post-Modern culture, that consensus can be too
much if there always has to be consensus. But there can also be a tyranny of bureaucracy
in organizations that are too traditional and authoritarian. Or, a tyranny of
competitiveness, where even the teams in an organization are competing against each
other and fighting to get a promotion. Theres a tyranny of being overly-competitive, if
youre too much of a strategic leader. Lastly, theres the tyranny of the autocrat, the tyrant.
My way or the highway. So the cool thing about Holacracy and Integral Leadership,
where we come together, is that we want to create space for different worldviews and
different leadership styles, but we also want to bring wisdom to appreciate that theyre
not all equal. In certain situations, circumstances and people, we do need distributed
autocracy, limited authoritarianism, necessary bureaucracy, and a proper amount of
perspective-taking and consensus in airing tensions.
Whether youre using Integral Leadership (lower-left interpersonal phenomena), or
Holacracy, which we might say is a structure or system thats certainly all-quadrants,
though we often think of it as a structure or system which we might initially anchor in the
lower-right. Either way its to allow space for all the differences and diversity, yet do it in a
more wise and effective way so were not just arguing with one another, but rather were
working together toward the common good and purpose of the organization or the city.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thanks Brett. Thats a beautiful way of summarizing it. Earlier this
week in speaking with Ken Wilber, we talked about my use of the four maps of the city.
The fourth map I call the genealogy of organizations. Over time, organizations have
become progressively more complex. The organizations you refer to in the styles of
leadership and worldviews, I have eight of them, which parse your four out into a more
granular analysis. I agree with you that although you can look at the genealogy of the
complexity, in fact they all coexist. All the organizations you mentioned are alive and well
in the city. They do have very valid roles to play. So thank you for giving us a way we can
value these different value systems in the city.
As weve looked across this week of Gaias Reflective Organ, something thats come up
again and again is the way that we emerge new intelligences is to make more
interconnections. One of the things Ive always loved that Meg Wheatley says is, If you
want to improve the health of a system, connect it to more of itself. I want to thank Brian
for sharing the Holacracy approach as a social technology that allows us to do that within
organizations. And as we move forward, Brian, Im looking forward to continuing to be co-
creative around this and discovering how we might take this meta-approach even to the
scale of a city, across all the system of systems. And Brett I want to continue to take the
brilliance youve got in working with organizations, through all the worldviews, and
enabling them to be effective in ways I think the future of the city will absolutely depend
on. So I would like to thank you both for today.

1
Aligning Strategies to Prosper Logic Processors Connecting the
Dots
What and where are we implementing inquiry intelligence?
Speaker: Dr. Ann Dale
Interviewer Dr. Marilyn Hamilton, PhD
September 18, 2012

Dr. Ann Dale is a faculty member with the School of Environment and
Sustainability at Royal Roads University. Ann holds a Canada Research Chair in
Sustainable Community Development (www.crcresearch.org) and is a Trudeau
Fellow Alumna (www.trudeaufoundation.ca), as well as a Fellow of the World
Academy of Art and Sciences. She chairs the Canadian Consortium for
Sustainable Development Research (CCSDR), a consortium of all the heads of
research institutes across Canada, and is active in the Canadian environmental
movement. Ann chairs an organization she created, the National Environmental Treasure (the
NET, www.oursafetynet.org). Current research areas include governance, social capital and
sustainable community development, biodiversity policy, and deliberative electronic
dialogues (www.edialogues.ca). She is a recipient of the 2001 Policy Research Initiative
Award for Outstanding Contribution to Public Policy for her most recent book, At the edge:
sustainable development in the 21st century.
Marilyn Hamilton: This week we are curious about how can we align the strategies to
prosper? I am really interested in the depths of both your compassion and commitment to
both of these inquiries. Particularly in creating sustainable communities and how thriving
cities can actually feed this. I want to start with a question that explores what I called
Inquiry Intelligences. How have you developed your approached to research to discover
in the communities that you are working in what is working and what isnt working?
Ann Dale: As you know my research is applied and it is interdisciplinary. Interdisciplinary
research is very different from multidisciplinary research. I define multidisciplinary as
everyone comes together at the end and pretends that they were collaborating together.
Where in interdisciplinary research is when you come together at the very beginning of
the research project or question or whatever it is that you are exploring and you co-create
the research questions and you are an integrated research team from the very beginning.
Then there is trans-disciplinary research which means you bring in other sectors of
society which are critical to the production of useful knowledge for sustainable
community development. So that is the basis of where I come from.
So that is all about collaboration. Essentially when we are in this field, what we are talking
about is social innovation. What is social innovation? Social innovation is inherently
collaborative. It is a collective exercise. No one person does it alone. So I am thinking along
the themes of collaboration and communication. You have to get the information out there
to communities and research inquiry as it is happening on the ground. Because what you
want to do is share your learning. Share the nuggets of gold. Share what is working and
what isnt working as soon as possible. That is a very atypical type of research agenda.
Because as academics we are supposed to wait to make sure everything we write is letter
perfect. Everything is wonderfully thought out. We have gone through extensive peer
review. I think there is a different way of doing research. Because sustainable community
development is beyond any one sector, beyond any one level of government, any one
discipline to solve. So it is inherently collaborative.
Just recently started thinking about bring social innovation into my work because that is
what we are about. We want to infuse social innovation throughout communities
everywhere. One of the issues with social innovation, particularly at the community level,
is how do you scale them up and then how do you get them to influence government. A
colleague of mine, Francis Westly, the head of the Centre for Social Innovation - The
pyramid of power in government is such that we are at the bottom and government is at
the top. So how do we invert that triangle?
I think there are some cities that are actually more open to really progressive and
community engagement. Interestingly enough, those communities who have got strong
community engagement processes in place, where they listen, where its appreciative
inquiry, its not consultation, its engagement, are farther along sustainable development
pathways than other cities. Malmo, Sweden comes to mind, Vxj. They all have very
strong community engagement programs to implement their policies and there climate
change adaptation and mitigation strategies. So, you can see your concept of the hive is
embedded in what I am talking about.
This is a collective exercise. It is collective intelligence. I think that sometimes we miss the
many important small steps searching for the big perfect Meta fix. And what we have to do
is remember that there is a big implementation gap between the research communities.
There is an awful lot of science, a lot of information about sustainable community
development. Why isnt more happening on the ground? How can we accelerate the
sharing of that knowledge? So the other things I have been looking at in terms of speeding
the exploitation of knowledge are peer to peer learning exchanges. Most of the literature
shows how do adults learn? They learn from their peers. So how can you accelerate those
peer-to-peer learning exchanges both on-line and in face-to-face? And, in a combination of
face-to-face and virtual? So what I am participating in today is what I see as a very
important experiment in trying to accelerate all of the stuff that I have just been talking
about.

Marilyn Hamilton: Thanks. I think you did hit on many of the points that are really
relevant to how this conference was shaped. I did see it as an experiment and that it would
be emergent. We would have a few surprises along the way and indeed that has happened.
Another thing you mentioned that I would like to ask you to unpack a little further is your
interest in collective intelligence. This is something I have suspected related to the hive
and the hive mind. So maybe you can tell us a little more about the collective intelligence
that you are noticing and I would also like to know how you see that connecting to the
social innovation factors that you are also seeing patterns emerge in society.
Ann Dale: It is interesting because I was just with my research team. The other thing I
actively experiment with is this novel kinds of way of doing research and research
partnerships. So for example I have been working quite closely with a workers not for
profit cooperative for sustainability solutions. They are a team of sustainability
practitioners. Some of who were my former graduate students. They work all across the
country. And look at new models of government. So I have been looking at how can
research, my research team, work with a group of practitioners. And how can we make
our research out there? Its the communication aspect.
It is really interesting. I will talk about networks first. When I bring my networks together
and they bring their networks together there is an emergent property where our outreach
if far greater than using one in isolation from another. I compare it to when you skip a
pebble on a pond and the ripples spread out. I think it is the synergy that comes together
from combining two diverse networks and then they then communicate further out. So its
many to many instead of one to one. So you are doing many to many, many many. It
spreads out. And our ability to be able to bring groups of people of experts together in
our on-line dialogues is consequently further enriched because they bring their people
together with my people. The emergent thinking and solutions are much richer.
What we are learning, and this gets back to inquiry is the first conversation we always
have on-line bringing together essentially strangers, but, strangers into a safe place is that
we always have to have some inquiry. We have to go through questions, we build trust, we
learn how others communicate and then we move on.
I just came from a research workshop in Kingsburg, Nova Scotia. One of the things about
inquiry or the research process is as you know the Holy Grail. You never really find out the
truth and it is always elusive. That is what keeps you researching, right? Because, if you
ever found all the answers, then you would probably stop doing it. I find the research
process really interesting. You start off, especially as the leader of the group, and you think
we have this big question, how are we ever going to solve it. And sometimes I lay awake at
night thinking about it. But I am always amazed that we go through this process and by
the second or third day I am thinking, Oh, we are never going to get anywhere. This is all
over the map. What is happening? And then it starts coming together in a very novel and
interesting way. And that is what I call collective intelligence. But there is a process
involved in that. You know there has to be trust there has to be sharing, there has got to be
no fear to put something really strange out there. I am always amazed and it is based on
the principal that the group always out performs the individual.
I know some of my students have a problem with that. Because some of use think we are
more brilliant than others. But its true all the literature points that the group always
outperforms the individual. So I think this is a really important concept for city planners,
anybody involved in our field, economic development officers. And, I do wish politicians
would start paying attention to the group always outperforms the individual.
So then that gets to social innovation. And social innovation is different from innovation,
because innovation can be technological. But social innovation is inherently collaborative.
Therefore, you need groups of people coming together to be able to solve what a problem
is in a community. Just as you need groups of people coming together to solve what
collectively makes your city more sustainable. And its in that group and collective
exercise and through the collaboration you come to the much deeper solutions. But,
collaboration isnt easy. It is similar to good communication. We all think that we
communicate in our marriages and our relationships. Well quite often we are not
communicating. So collaboration means letting go of your boarders. Letting go of your
own ego and approaching it with the idea that what the group is going to come up with
will be far greater than any of the individuals. The whole is greater than the sum of the
parts.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that your idea around collaboration not being easy and the
whole precept of groups outperforming the individual I have been watching the literature
on that for a long time. In a society where individuals are kind of hyper individuated in
some stages of development now it means I also encounter with my students this sort of
reluctance to let go and see how we might learn as teams.
Last week on of our presenters actually challenged the whole concept of design in group
and was proposing that something different happens when you go into what he calls hive
mind. Even on the first day, Michael Zimmerman questioned whether our concepts of
design are going to get us where we need to go. So it sounds to me like you too are actually
experimenting with how to tap into collective intelligences in which there is no small print
or guidebook written. You are just trying to experiment with what is possible. Is that a fair
and admirable observation of your daring to do in setting up your research framing?
Ann Dale: Yes I agree, I always try to work with others. Going back to its beyond any one
discipline, any one sector whatever. So whenever I am starting an inquiry or a research
project, I try to form an advisory committee or for example my Canada Research Chair has
a board of directors because I try to identify where the gaps are in my knowledge. And
when you look at it, most of us are very impoverished when it comes to ecological
knowledge. When you live very disconnected from nature, which we do in our cities
because there is more concrete and our infrastructure and our services are hidden. Also
too you are disconnected from a lot of biodiversity.
So it is very important to know about the ecological services, the functioning of the
infrastructure of your city. That is your bread and butter. That is what we are all
dependent on. And yet we are so ignorant and have so much education in so many other
things. I like to argue that there is an inverse relationship between ecological literacy and
the level of decision making in this country [Canada].
It is just really important to identify where the gaps in your own knowledge are how are
you going to fill those gaps in the teams that you are going to assemble around any project
of inquiry that you are doing? I do believe deliberate sign. I wish I had listened to the
earlier conversations because I think we as human beings based on my knowledge of a
former executive in the federal government, and my work on deliberate dialogues and
using it for research dissemination we human beings are very bad at different. We dont
embrace diversity. And so you have to deliberately design the people you need at anyone
table to help you solve something. And quite often the voices of the poor and the
marginalized are always absent from the table. They are most often absent from the table.
I think this is a major problem facing cities.
We have a book coming out in November on Urban Sustainability: Reconnecting Space and
Place. We have neighbourhoods of haves, and these neighbourhoods of have-nots. And
that is not sustainable. How do you create bridges between the haves and the have-nots?
How do you deliberately design communities so you have diversity? Particularly in
cooperative housing? How do you do that? Give people space to come together for social
capital, for getting to know one another. One of the best ways to bring people together is
through food.
I see the 100 mile diet, the 100 mile stuff and all the local markets happening. Its
phenomenal. If you go to one of those markets youll see such an exchange of information
between the client and the farmer: sharing of recipes, sharing of knowledge about food
production. Nothing is more primordial than food. So its really interesting what is
happening. I often wonder if maybe we had just concentrated on food and linking
sustainable development to food security in the 1980s, when some of us started to work
on this, we would be a lot better off.
It is interesting, if I can just digress a bit here. I was in Halifax. I didnt know this but
Halifax has the largest organic food market in all of Canada. It is housed in two buildings.
That is interesting to me because Nova Scotia is one of the provinces that didnt have the
highest per capita income although, that is changing. I live out of Ottawa, which is the
capital city of our country. Ottawa doesnt have a large year round indoor food market like
Montreal has, like Vancouver has food markets. Its amazing to me that you have such a
significant gap in a country that has as many resources as Canada. So we have these
pockets of knowledge. We have pockets of best practices. But they are not diffused across
the country.
Then on the other hand, the community in which I was staying with was an old fishing
community. My team had made me question what the meaning of community was. I met
people in that community from Texas from Florida from wherever. They had come into a
beautiful landscape and renovated these old fishing homes. They come in for two or three
weeks of the year and then there are $2.5 million seasonal homes. The place has a great
beauty, but its kind of violent. There is not a bee hive of activity. So what is community?
Marilyn Hamilton: I know that in one of the prologues that you and I had where we
talked a lot about the background of how you actually, in your own career, came into this
whole inquiry and research work. It is something that is recent and emergent for you even
in the last ten to fifteen years. It is out of a long term executive position in federal
government. So when we look at now thinking what is the meaning of community? It is a
reoccurring theme that we are finding. People are asking how we make meaning about
communities that are now often are electronic they are not face-to-face even. So it is
interesting that both of us in our own inquiry into what makes humans fully conscious and
fully engage that we both experimented with face-to-face as well as electronic ways of
communicating.
One of the conversations that I had with Terry Patten, who will be one of the though
thought leaders next week on our conference, had him remarking when he goes to
Starbucks he can sit down and connect with friends in Thailand, Japan, Canada and Europe.
He lives in San Francisco and might not know anyone who is sitting with him in Starbucks.
So who is in community? He electronically with his friends or because his body is in
Starbucks is he in community with people that are with him who probably live within
walking distance? We are at a very interesting stage of evolution in our cities.
Ann Dale: I completely agree. Relationships are changing in fundamental ways because of
our internet communication tool. We dont even know what is happening as these
relationships are evolving. Some of it is evolving in healthy ways and some of its not. We
have to start asking ourselves very profound social questions. Wouldnt it be better if he
was both talking to people in Starbucks and also talking to people in far away countries?
Putman asked the question, Do we need to know more people by knowing our
neighbours or more policemen on the street? in his book Bowling Alone. Because, we
need both.
Lets take virtual connectivity, for example, (and I will speak very personally). I live in a
beautiful place outside of Ottawa. We cannot underestimate peoples connection to place.
So, one of the important questions that Im asking myself about cities is, How can we
make places more beautiful? And through that beauty connect people in more diverse
ways with more diverse people in those cyber places?
If I didnt work virtually I couldnt have my five acres by this small place that I work.
Through virtual connection I can connect to libraries and for forth. But I also learned I
have to be careful about not becoming isolated and disconnected from my own people,
from other people. So I deliberately now go into town and into those spaces. Its
interesting that on one hand people can criticize and say we have all these coffee shops
there is so much consumption. Yet I see spontaneous conversations between people in the
lineup for coffee. They are places of connectivity. But they are not if we use them just to
come in and use your computer and you dont interact with the people around you.
Marilyn Hamilton: One of the things Ive noticed and talk to my current Royal Roads
community development cohort about is, Are people afraid to actually meet peoples eyes
in the city? I know I live in a smaller city and I feel like I know everyone. Of course Im
open to talking in grocery store, to stopping on the street never mind in Starbucks. When I
go into larger cities, I am conscious that I have to become aware of the different context.
Yet, I feel these days that it might be I am walking down the streets of Vancouver or
Ottawa or Amsterdam. I am passing people that I may well have known on-line and I just
dont recognize them faceto-face.
So I do think we are at a really interesting stage of human evolution. The kind of inquiry
and research that you are opening up that I think co-generates relationships and also
carries what you say the intention of a research question is with the design, bringing in
what I would call a on purpose group of people or population to participate in the actual
inquiry is very important. Its kind of curious Anne when you talk about some of your
work some of it has been with the not-for-profit organization with the downtown eastside
of Vancouver. Is that correct?
Ann Dale Yes.
Marilyn Hamilton - Im curious there because one question we are asking the conference
is who else should be here? And you pointed at people that are marginalized and dont
usually have a voice. How do you engage with people that you cant usually get on-line or
you cant usually find through the usual institutions? How do you find the people that are
marginalized to bring in their extra voices?
Ann Dale: What a great question Marilyn. Because, I learned over four years. I originally
started to do research in the downtown eastside with the binners or dumpsters divers.
They are the people that go into the garbage and take out the recoverable or recyclables
and then take them in. There was the founder of United We Can which is $3.5 million 40
person recoverable society in the downtown eastside. And he founded it. I started working
with him for three years. I was interviewing him. Typical researcher goes in and
interviews. And I always took a research assistant because at the beginning it was very
frightening to go into the downtown eastside as a female.
And, over three years we built this trust relationship. So then I built another three year
research project. I employed him as a co-researcher. Thats how you do it. Instead of
interviewing the subjects, work with them as co-researchers in the fundamental design of
your project. I employed another person who had previously been homeless. That didnt
work out because of some personal issues and that was fine. But Ken was able to retrieve
data or information from the residents of the downtown eastside that is totally unique. It
could never have been collected by someone who wasnt member of the community. It is
the same as do you work with the community or do you work for the community? And
when you bring the people you never know where someone else walks. Unless you have
been in their shoes, you have to bring them to the table because you are going to have and
implementation gap if you dont. For instance, the downtown eastside has millions and
millions of dollars have been poured in to trying to fix the level of addiction. Now that the
people who suffer from the disease of addiction are being allowed to self organize and
emergent organizations are coming. I refer everybody to Sole Food. The concrete jungle
that is now green. They built gardens for themselves and they are now giving the food to
some of the residents in downtown, but selling organic to somewhere else. It is just
amazing what is happening there now. And you know it was small steps, not a million
dollar program to try and do this or try and so that. Those people must be brought in to
the design of any programs that are intended to be able to help them.
Marilyn Hamilton: So it isnt a matter of throwing a gazillion dollars at something to
solve the problem. I love the term you used earlier called meta fix as opposed to actually
engaging people and asking them what is important, what is not working, and asking them
would they like to see, and creating perhaps space conditions for them to actually be able
to do so.
Ann Dale: You create the enabling environment for them to develop greater agency.
Agency doesnt refer to organization there you are the agency. And that is a fundamentally
different approach.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is one of the terms that I have heard you and one of your
research students use recently. I think you have written a really interesting article about
it. Tell us more about what you mean by greater agency. How does that relate to
something like opening up communion with the larger community? What do you mean by
greater agency?
Ann Dale: Yes there is a connection there Marilyn. It would take more time then we have
to explore. I stumbled upon agency because I originally had a three year research project
on social capital and network formations and how can you mobilize social capital before a
crisis because we are really good a responding to crises. But in this field it may be too late.
So then the question arose in my mind. Why do some communities when the single
resource collapses, they collapse where others thrive? Same as why does one individual
transcend a horrible tragedy while another one collapse. Social capital refers to the
relationship between people. It is the collective. So then I game to the idea that there had
to be something a prior priority to that. I started to dig into my physiological image and
the question of agency came up. There seemed to be something that happened at the
individual level before they moved into capacity. We define agency as the will or the intent
on the part of the individual to take action on something. I am trying to finalize this journal
article where I am going to do 12 individual brilliant leaders age 14 to 54 across this
country. And I am amazed that there are some unanimous characteristics that come out of
these 12 interviews. Limited sample, but I think someone can take that on if they are
interested and research it. So I think we have to really look at, especially in our social
policies and especially in our cities where we want to be able to connect people. We want
to create the space for those connections for people. So you create the enabling conditions
for them to be able to express their own agency in solving the problems of their
community. Because if a person who has high agency does not have the enabling
conditions to be able to express that agency, that agency can then turn in on them. I have
often wondered about the change in the demographics in homeless people, especially in
cities, and about the high percentage of youth among the homeless now. What is going on
there?
Marilyn Hamilton: That is a really powerful question that has a lot of tension that
deserves our attention around it. I can see that our time together is never, never, enough.
One thing that I wanted to bring in for our listeners is how this work that you are
describing in some beautiful granularity around your research. You have become actually
quite well known in Canada for a process, a framework you created, that you call
Integrated Community Sustainability Plans. Could you maybe talk a little bit about how you
have actually seen those being implemented in cities that have taken those up. Give us a
bit of background. Why did you develop them in the first place? What has happened since
you have offered them to the Canadian communities?
Ann Dale: Well I wanted to ensure integration right. So the template we developed for
communities includes both how you would design a community engagement process and
what are the components of an integrated community sustainability plan. And we argue
that you can do one without the other. That the plan has to be developed by the
community, with the community or it is never going to be implemented. I mean there are
so many plans and reports and taskforces. You can go into any community any city and
find plans. But how deeply have they been implemented. And that is one way to get to that
question. And that is to engage the community in the development of the plan and then all
sorts of things are built into it.
There are bits of pieces of it all across the country. But so for example one community has
integrated their integrated community sustainability plan with their official community
plan. That is a pretty good example. There are some communities that have district energy
systems. I just finished a wonderful assignment by one of my students. I didnt know this.
Nova Scotia has the highest recycling rate of any province in this country [Canada]. Why?
Because they have a province wide integrated strategy.
We are so used to thinking that if A then its not B. Well this is the world of A and B and N.
Vancouver has some very progressive policies moving forward. But is has a problem. Yes,
it is one of the greenest cities in the country, but at what expense of the suburbs
surrounding it. So you get back to collaboration, connection, and communication. Toronto
has it so every new building has to have a green roof. But, do they have district energy
systems? So it depends on the push-pulls. It needs to be integrated. It needs to be fully
embedded in all levels of government within any city. You have got to prioritize it. I
havent seen other than I think Vancouver and Toronto, but then theyre bigger and you
are naturally attracted toward bigger. Yes, they are heading more and more towards it.
But then there are there are these wonderful brilliant innovations like Nova Scotia having
the highest recycling because the committed A a significant portion of their budget, and
because B they have the province wide strategy.
Marilyn Hamilton: One of the interesting aspects of your work Ann, is that you integrate
cross sectors at say the scale of the city. But also because of the scale of your cross country
and multi-governmental experience, you are able to see how to integrate across the
governing and governance structure. Would you have any advice for people who want to
take on not just City Hall, but the province and the feds all at once?
Ann Dale: I think that sometimes we just have to ignore governments at certain points
because; they are going to be hierarchical and get on with it. So that is why I stepped
outside of government. So I am working outside government now. There are three things I
want to share with you. By bringing a group of 19 sustainability planners from across the
country through a year, we were able to develop a policy agenda for Canadian
municipalities. So we published that. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities worked
with us on that. So always look for strategic partnerships and strategic alliances wherever
you can to disseminate you work and even in doing your work.
As you know we had this thing on de-growth. We will be publishing an action agenda for
Canadian decision makers for rethinking growth and prosperity. I think we are going to
publish that at the end of this week or next week. We had to boil that down to ten
recommendations. I cant believe that I spent most of my summer on ten measly
recommendations. But I think it is going to be powerful. We already have five people who
are in key positions that are going to help us disseminate that. Then the next thing we are
going to do. Over the next two year we are going to make what will be called the Solutions
Agenda. So another word what I am doing is I am cannibalizing. Everybody thinks that
government makes policies. And they do make policies. But Im also going to make policy.
And Im going to try and change your policy. I dont know if that answers your question,
but I think that is really, really, important.
Can I leave a plea with anybody who is listening? Any young people, any researchers, the
biggest question I think we have facing us is how to redesign the suburbs and shopping
malls. That is where some major, major, work has to be done.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is a really practical and gritty question to leave our audience
with. Best wishes on your continuity curiosity.
Ann Dale: Thank you for the privilege of participating.

1
Dots
What and Where Are We Implementing Inquiry Intelligence?
Speakers: Dr. Tam Lundy, Dr. Ian Wight
Host: Beth Sanders
Date: September 18, 2012

Dr. Tam Lundy is a consultant and educator in human and social
development. Tam leads large-scale initiatives and grassroots engagements,
working with leaders, practitioners, policy-makers and change agents in
diverse settings. She delivers learning events and writes extensively; her
current focus is the integration of emergent thinking and practices in health
promotion. She loves to work with change leaders who are curious about the integral
approach and its practical, value-added application to existing thinking and practice. Tam
played a leadership role in starting British Columbia Healthy Communities, ensuring the
theoretical foundations and practice tools had an integral approach. The integral framework
provides the foundation for her most recent offering: an innovative and evolutionary model
for healthy change-making called Communities that Can!

Dr. Ian Wight is a Canadian of Scottish descent working at the University of
Manitobas Department of City Planning. He has worked as a professional city
planner in Western Canada in the fields of regional planning, municipal affairs
and islands planning/governance. Ian is a founding board member of the
Council for Canadian Urbanism, an inaugural member of the Integral Institute,
and a member of two 'communities of practice' - the Ginger Group
Collaborative and Next Step Integral. Ian promotes city planning as place-making (as
wellbeing by design), and regional planning as common-place-making on a grand scale. His
current action research is focused on 'evolving professionalism - beyond the status quo',
prospecting an integral form of planning that transcends and includes the best of pre-modern,
modern and post-modern planning. Building on the social technologies of presencing and
meshworking, Ian delivers workshops on praxis-making and ethos-making meshing the
personal, the professional and the spiritual.

[Note: Tam Lundy provided a slide presentation that she references in the interview. It is
appended at the end of this interview.]
Beth Sanders: I am particularly curious about what will happen in this interview because
Ian Wight I have to confess is my former thesis advisor and Im surely going to enjoy
putting tough questions to him. And when it comes to Tam Lundy, Tam and I have met
before and Im really curious about how inquiry has shaped her whole project called
Communities that Can. Before we dive in, Tam and Ian welcome to you both to the Integral
City 2.0 Online Conference.
Ian Wright & Tam Lundy: Thank you Beth.
Beth Sanders: So, Tam lets start with you and this curiosity that I have around the role of
inquiry and how Communities That Can came about.
Tam Lundy: Well inquiry has been the foundation of my work for many many years. It hit
me hard a few years ago well about 10 years ago when after being in the field of
community development and health promotion for many many years, I found that I had
way more questions than answers and so it was time to really dive in deep. And that is
when I discovered Ken Wilbers work and that was a real turnaround place for me because
it really helped me to make sense of things that had not made sense before. But it also
helped to explain things that I knew and sometimes didnt notice I knew.
And so that was a real lift-off place for me. And I took that learning into the work that I
was doing and it became the framework for my own thinking and my own practice. And
you mentioned that I had played a leadership role with BC Healthy Communities and so I
was very interested to see so this was another form of inquiry.
This had meant so much to me and made such a difference in my work, [I wondered] what
kind of a difference was it going to make in the work of others? And so I introduced it to
the team at BC Healthy Communities and we used it to design our approach to working
with communities around the province of British Columbia. We found that it made quite a
different and so that was very encouraging, and it helped me to recognize that theory and
practice are not disconnected.
Then a number of years later I found that I still have lots of questions because I saw the
gift that an integral lens brought. I saw the gift that a healthy communities approach
brought and I also knew that there was more. Thats what the integral lens helped me to
recognize. And thats where Communities That Can came about. Because after working
with so many organizations and in so many contexts from government, to working with
professional and human services and the health sector too, and many engaged citizens at
the grassroots and community activities - I realized that we are still trying to work with
certain practice tools that dont always fit with the complexity of todays change
challenges.
That was a pretty big question and I think it was also an indicator that we needed to take
our collective inquiry deeper. What I noticed is that there is a lot of curiosity about the
whole area of complexity and people are reading books about complexity. We talked to
decision-makers people in government, elected officials they all acknowledged that we
are working with a level of complexity that is new to us and that we dont always know
how to respond [to].
But what I discovered is there is a difference between talking about complexity and
recognizing it. And really deeply understanding how it plays out in the world in world
shaping ways and also in our own work in the world. So in other words I recognize that
there is a capacity gap - so our capacity to work at this level of complexity doesnt always
align with the complexity of the change challenge.
So then my inquiry was; how can we get closer? How can we get over our old tendency,
our old habit of wanting to find very simple solutions to things that we know are complex
challenges? And thats really led to the design of Communities That Can. In so many ways
its a practical application of what I have heard Ian Wight describe as design by inquiry.
So we use inquiry itself to design new approaches, new frameworks, and new ways of
working. Its very much a capacity building approach and it addresses not just our doing
capacity. We have tended to put a lot of our focus on doing and the ways we do, but it also
addresses becoming capacity.
So, you know, it addresses our complexity of purpose; the complexity of the principles that
ground our work, that guide us; complexity of practices certainly; but also complexity of
perspective. And each of these, of course, is directly connected to the complexity of the
inquiry that we are engaged in. From where Im sitting, from all of this experience both
with my own inquiry and engaging with others in deepening our inquiry around change
making, Ive really come to strongly believe inquiry and capacity are very intimately
interconnected. And the capacity building approach that I take is directly related to
inquiry, my own ongoing inquiry, but also working with others. So thats just a little
background around how we got here.
And then I would just like to say a few words about the very big inquiry that has been
really engaging me. We know that there are some really big questions that are facing
change leaders in the 21
st
century and I can talk about three of them that we absolutely
cant ignore. One is that the climate is changing. Another is health disparities are on the
rise and the third is social and economic inequality is growing its not shrinking. If we
look closely we notice these challenges are interconnected and that we cant make gains in
one area without making gains in each of the others. And yet we still have a tendency to
put them in silos and work on them as independent entities.
So my very big question is how are our change leaders going to navigate the complexity of
these three very critical issues: health, equity and environmental sustainability? And how
can people working to gather professionals, policymakers, citizens and communities of
every size, everywhere in the world take the kind of action that generates higher level of
health, equity and sustainability? In people as well as in communities and in the natural
and built environments? And in even more specifically and here we start to get into the
foundations of the Communities That Can approach what were asking is what generates
health? And when we know what generates health, were going to know how to get more
of it. How can we foster healthy change? How can we maximize our resources for both
health and healthy change - by levering the contribution of community members and not
just leaving it to the policymakers, and professionals? And how do we increase individual
and community capacity for response-ability as well as resilience and that differentiation
is something Im happy to talk about as we move along. But that gives you a basic
introduction I think to the big questions that got me started and that havent left. Its an
inquiry Im still in engaged in - this is very much an emergent process and Im just as
curious to see where its going to go as anyone.
Beth Sanders: Thank you Tam. Lets go over the individual and community capacity for
response ability and resilience. What do you see there?
Tam Lundy: Well what Im noticing is that again we have a lot of language around
resilience and we talk about resilience in children certainly and there are many
organizations for example that foster resilience in kids. We talk about resilience in adults
and in the health promotion literature there is a lot of emphasis on that. We talk about
resilience in organizations. We talk about resilience in communities and in the natural
world. And I think that thats been a very big contribution over the last 20+ years. And so
when we talk about resilience you know if we try to provide a nut-shell understanding of
it basically means the capacity to cope and adapt in the face of adversity, trauma and
stress. So in other words, as a colleague of ours often says bouncing back from shock. So
something happens and the system unravels a bit and were trying to get back to normal.
This would be a very typical understanding of resilience.
Response ability is a little different if we were to sum it up, we say that sorry I am
trying to work with the slides here so if folks are actually following on the slide
presentation, we are looking at slide number 28 at this point.
So response ability, I describe as the capacity to respond positively and proactively
complex challenges including both wicked problems, but also promising potentials, now
and into the future. So we arent just responding to problems were responding for
potentials and people and communities and system to become more. And response ability
is essentially the ability to respond and not simply react. Ive done a lot of work over many
years in human services and community development and what Ive noticed is that, fairly
typically, we react when theres a problem we react and try to solve the problem. With
response ability, we see ourselves a little differently we dont just see ourselves as
victims of circumstance or people who are experiencing problems, but we actually see
ourselves as agents.
And Ive drawn on Fred Kofmans work and folks who have been involved in the integral
community will recognize his name. He wrote a wonderful book called Conscious Business
and he talks about this concept of response ability and its an emphasis on ability. And he
says we are not victims, we are in the game and a positive response is always possible and
we can influence the outcome. And that perspective, of course, that is going to be needed if
we address some of these challenges that we are now facing. And he talks about this
power to respond and being a very defining feature of humanity. And it is a direct
expression of our rationality and our will and freedom. Being human he says is being
response able. So thats a pretty important perspective I think, particularly when you
think about cities and all communities, they are going to be healthiest when they are
certainly resilient, but they are going to be healthiest when they are also response able.
And so it becomes an orienting and organizing principle around which communities can
begin to respond to some of the challenges that they are facing including health, including
equity and including environmental sustainability.
And its also a capacity that let us move from break even - which we can think of as
resilience - to break through. And so we are breaking through the old normal, if you will,
and were actually designing new normal. We are designing the future.
And so I often think of response ability as resilience plus. It includes resilience and it goes
further. It is a higher level of capacity that goes beyond an adaptive change approach that
actually invites us to engage generative approaches to change.
Beth Sanders: Thats wonderful. Hence Communities That Can right? Thats a wonderful
play with words too - from responsible to response able.
Tam Lundy: Yes
Beth Sanders: I am going to swing my attention over to Dr. Ian Wight for a moment. Ian, I
am curious how inquiry shows up in your designing world these days?
Ian Wight: Well you know, in a lot of different forms. I was actually quite stimulated and
surprised by how many forms of inquiry I guess I engage in. And I guess I was realizing it
is a form of action inquiry. And then as I was listening to Ann Dale this morning I was
beginning to think of is it something along the lines of enaction inquiry, if anyone was
listening to Ann Dale? You heard her talk about agency, and I have been playing with that
as well.
I have also been playing with the notion of not just acting but enacting. It lets you see that,
thats what Ive been up to, because definitely I found inquiry is important to me and
certainly in myself for myself and I found that very prominent when I am engaged, not so
much with my professional community as special communities of practice. And for me
that would be groups like the Ginger Group and Next Step, both of which I could talk about
at greater length.
But I found them very generative for me, really they have been great vehicles for inquiries
that certainly have helped me but helped me work with others, helped me think about
bigger things. And definitely Ive engaged in a lot of inquiry with my students, for my
students. And I guess in terms of what Tam has been saying its for building their capacity
to be response able in relation to whatever might hit them when they graduate from our
program like you have. And you have had to deal with a lot of stuff that you might
otherwise get buffeted around by. But I found myself doing a lot of work in terms of action
inquiry with them, helping them with their own inquiries but translating it into what I
would call not just a practice statement but a praxis statement. And thats where they get
to integrate not just the theory studies that they may undertake, or the practice
experience that we try to give them, but it is where they are actually permitted, or
encouraged, to also integrate their own personal values and beliefs and come up with
something, which is not just a practice, but something that can serve them when they go
out there, when they have to be more response able.
We also include now I realized there is a collective dimension creeping in and I have
turned that work it is ethos making and it is like collective inquiry but by groups of
professionals and in my case its usually groups of some of our students as well as some of
our local practitioners. And basically instead of just worrying about codes of ethics, for
example, and checking in with them whenever they think its relevant the process
involves - the action inquiry, they are involved in is trying to build, in effect, a collective
praxis statement which we call an ethos, which basically becomes like a little manifesto for
them as a support group for one another when [they] go out into the world professing.
That has been developing for me right now into an interest in inquiry, involving I would
say professionals, in general.
I think that Tam, who has just a super focus on community folks in general, I realized
listening to her, my focus is also about change making, also about capacity building, but it
seems to me for me trying to help develop and evolve professionals. And I am finding that
the kind of cutting edges there, are thinking about inter-professionalism and how can we
build capacity a professional to be not just professing from their home base but actually
capable of being also an interprofessional person. And Im actually [planning] some leave
to even go beyond that and to inquire about what would be called meta-professionalism.
Thats another thing that is a little more out there for me.
You have mentioned that Ive been involved in practice in planning practice I am an
educator and a practitioner I guess its for about 30 to 40 years and Ive been trying to
make sense of it in terms of our context here. And I think it still sums up with what I would
call its what I championed these days in terms of planning professionally. I champion
planning as place making. Not just to do with place but the verbing - the place making. And
I go further when people ask me, well, what is this making about? And I now add well-
being by design.
What I was realizing was listening to Ann this morning I heard a lot of talk about the
importance of place and I realized yes it is foundational and it was foundational for me -
but I think where my action inquiry has taken me is into again Ill say the verbing rather
than the noun place I am interested in place making, in the same way that I would be
interested in and possibly Tam is too - community but in communing and what comes
out of that. So Im hoping that gives you a sense of what an inquiry is like for me - how it is
an enaction inquiry and how it might be emerging as some form of not just action inquiry
but enaction inquiry. Paying attention to that agency that I think Ann Dale was addressing
became really important for her work as it evolved.
Beth Sanders: When you talked about professionalism and it evolving into inter-
professionalism and just before you offered the word meta-professionalism what
popped into my mind was trans-professionalism - and Im wondering if you could tease
out for us, what the differences between inter-professionalism and what youre calling a
meta-professionalism?
Ian Wight: Yes and I think youre kind of going on the right track it definitely involves a
manifestation the trans-professional and the trans-personal and it would invoke not just
interdisciplinary but transdisciplinary. Its a kind of way out territory. In terms of the
praxis and ethos that I have mentioned before, that kind of comparable term Im working
with is poeisis for this whole area of what we might be calling the trans-professional. And
it does overlap quite a bit [with] the transpersonal and I guess thats where the spiritual
element comes into play. Its how I am trying to incorporate that into an evolving notion
an evolving integral notion of professionalism. I think we could go on there because its a
very alive inquiry for me basically how do I join up planning education with a spiritual
dimension. It is something that doesnt come easily and but its something at the very
beginning of professing with absolutely central and one of the things Ive come to realize
about my own interests there is that spirituality and the spirit dimension its an integral
aspect of trying to enact integral practice. And I think in the beginning I am trying to
communicate you know stretching beyond interprofessional and interdisciplinary into
those trans-realms via transpersonal, transdisciplinary, trans-professional. Is that what
youre interested in?
Beth Sanders: Thats really helpful. For the sake of our audience could you briefly
describe what we mean when we use the prefix trans - what does that entail?
Ian Wight: Well, in integral terms its easy for me to go to the transcending while
including. So its not junking anything prior that has just been simply inter or mono or
multi-but its literally trying to find something that transcends what has gone before. For
me, for example, what I call evolving professionalism involves me, when I do it from an
integral perspective. Im trying to find a professionalism that integrates the best of, not
just modern professionalism and post-modern professionalism, but also pre-modern
professionalism, which is actually where the roots of professing can be found. And its
trying to go back and bring forward the dignified elements of those as well as the dignified
elements of a modern professionalism as well as whatever we might identify as dignified
in postmodern. I think that the direction I would take that response.
Beth Sanders: Thanks, Ian, thats helpful. One of the threads Im picking up in the last
couple of days of the Integral City 2.0 Online Conference is the notion of Action Inquiry
and obviously today is the day to explore that because we are here to talk about Inquiry
Intelligence and how we get at meta-wisdom. And along my personal journey Ive come
across a new word to add to action inquiry which would be a generative action inquiry.
And Ian I think that touches a little bit with enaction or inaction inquiry and Ian Im just
going to check in with you on this notion and see how it resonates with you and then I
want to check in with Tam too. So Ian?
Ian Wight: Definitely Ive noticed especially in And Ive taken an interest in another
topic I was involved in earlier in the conference Emergence. I just, I guess, began to
appreciate how important the generative aspect is. I should mention just in passing, it also
comes up in another field - that is another field of inquiry for me right now - a very
preliminary (inquiry) - called apithology. And I am very interested in what are the
generative conditions involved with wellness, with health, with what Tam was talking
about. And again I am encouraged to hear an allegiance to that in Ann Dales comments
this morning. This notion of enabling, coming up with the condition that would enable
folks in communities to be, I guess, just that creating with and from their own agencies
and a generative approach is very attentive to that. Its looking for, you know, what are the
kind of positive flows that we can work with, rather than always be focused on the
barriers that could be overcome, for example. So generative inquiry I literally love that
perspective in Adam Kahanes terms. He helped me appreciate this, when you are talking
about a subject like power, there is degenerative power and there is generative power and
you want to be alert to both rather than, in some circles, the coward gets trashed too
easily because it just means the province of some sectors rather than every one.
Beth Sanders: Great, thanks Ian. I just want to make a note for listeners too when Ian
mentions apithology, you may be interested in connecting with Will Vareys work and Will
was one of our speakers on Day Two of the conference, so you might want to listen to his
interview.
Now Tam let me touch base with you on generative action inquiry. What is your take on
how to create the conditions for a generative notion of inquiry?
Tam Lundy: Well generative change making is something has very much come from my
own inquiry, because I realized that when it comes to change making we tend to want to
find one approach that works for everything and of course that doesnt work. And so
within the Communities that Can framework Ive identified three different approaches
to change, so that we can get very clear about, whats the best fit change approach for that
challenge that were dealing with. And so I have identified three: a technical approach to
change, an adaptive approach to change which we hear a lot about - and a generative
approach to change.
And I think it is very important to understand the contours of each of those. And
generative change offers something, to use the language that Ian just used, of transcend
and include - a generative approach to change can transcend and include both technical
and adaptive change, but it adds something more. And it is certainly more intentional but
it is also more focused on potentials. So its about complex systems responding certainly
with adaptive resilience but also with intentional generativity, and the goal is not simply
equilibrium but its actually nudging the system to a higher level of complexity. And if
were talking about transformative change, which we often do, then really we need to look
at generative approaches to change and not simply technical and adaptive.
And there have been some very useful work that has been done by Ron Heifetz that really
draws out the differences between technical and adaptive change and I refer people to his
work. But when I looked at that, it occurred to me, at least in terms of the context in which
I work, and working with change makers in a whole variety of systems contexts, that it
wasnt enough. So we needed to be able to differentiate we needed to have language that
helps us to talk about the approach to change that we thought was most appropriate in the
context. So its based [on a definition that says] to purposely generate a healthier future
for all living systems and one thing that I would add here is that and I am drawing on
Eric Ericksons work because he talks about generativity, and he said, it is somewhat akin
to creativity, but it refers specifically to the mature adult contribution to the well-being of
future generations. And I love that because it starts to invite inquiry into what is not sure
adulthood - and how does human development factor into our capacity to make healthy
change? And of course it does, but it is not on the radar screen of most change makers and
that has been something thats been a real personal passion of mine.
I sometimes envy folks like Ian because they work in university contexts, where people
come to learn where their job is to learn but often what happens when people head out
into the world and they are so busy in their work that the opportunities for capacity
building and professional development tend to disappear, especially when you work in the
human services and there are so many budget cuts. It just falls off the radar screen. And
yet it is speaking to this need that we have to continue learning, to continue developing,
right through adulthood. And professional development of course is one of the ways that
can happen
Beth Sanders: So our theme for the week is about Aligning Strategies to Prosper:
Connecting the Dots. Ian what would you say is it that needs to be aligned?
Ian Wight: Oh what we need to be aligned? I guess very simply it would be, you know, the
appropriate attention to the underlying intention. And I think that would be a function of, I
guess, the overall level of consciousness that we might need to do all this. I think that what
we are talking about is, especially when integral to me is very much about a consciousness
raising a kind of widening, deepening, broadening perspective and it becomes certainly
a useful framework for me when trying to think about how we might align strategies,
especially in terms of what we need to be moving on multiple fronts and lines, while at the
same time trying to do our own stuff in terms of asserting maybe a series of minor
priorities that we might tackle one right after the other.
We really need to be in the business of moving on several fronts at the same time. But I
think possibly that will become clearer [tomorrow] - I think its tomorrow when we get
into Meshworking Intelligence - but I think for me, Im becoming aware of the importance
of aligning, not just the exterior manifestations that are the Its [LR quadrant] that we can
too easily get seduced by, to the detriment of the interior consciousness aspect either
individual or collective and how we can bring that into play.
So alignment for me can get very basic in terms of an individual and how whole they are as
a person and that would be how integrated, integrating, they can be in terms of, I guess,
simply how integrated they are in terms of their body, mind, soul and spirit. Do they bring
all of those to work for example? To the meeting? Do folks in an organization bring their
whole selves into that organization? So there is something around the alignment for me, I
guess, helping [to be] involved [in] the wholeness in an individual level, where I start.
Because its where Im working its with myself and my students, and trying to think what
that might mean [if]they can be more effective agents in aligning the strategies to prosper.
I think Ive also mentioned we need a kind of inspiring reframing and the ones for me
that are very alive involved in this and it can be quite provocative in my field like Im
asking people to re-think planning as place making. That does not come naturally to
people who are planners. And when I add well-being by design, thats not something
they comfortably have included in their planning up till now. So I guess Im pushing for a
bit of an integral paradigm shift, which might not come easily to most folks but Im hoping
it might be attractive for that critical mass that provides the tipping point can bring
everyone else along in its wake. So thats just my top of the mind response to that tough
question, from a former student [Beth].
Beth Sanders: [chuckles] Thank you Ian. Tam whats striking me at this moment is when
Ian speaks about integrated and integrating individuals, organizations and communities,
its occurring to me that we in this online community around this particular conference,
we are beginning to create a new community around the notion of an Integral City.
What strategies could we be using as an emerging community to be fully response able?
What advice do you have for us?
Tam Lundy: Hmmm. Well one of the things that I have noticed is, in my years of
engagement with integral communities - and this is why I am so happy to see this
conference happening and the focus on cities and communities - that we, in the integral
community, there has been much more of a focus on the individual and a lot of focus on
well-being in a psychological or a spiritual sense. And thats absolutely wonderful and its
absolutely necessary. And in other contexts thats actually what I try to introduce folks to
because they dont have nearly enough opportunity to explore some of those [aspects].
But Im so glad to see the focus on the collective, both the interior of the collective as well
as the exterior of the collective. And one of the ways that Ive found helpful for doing that
when I do work in community you know in geographical community for example so I
will share those is to really focus on drilling down into, first of all what are our personal
assumptions, but also our collective assumptions? And I do a lot of work with groups
around this.
More recently Ive expanded that and actually introduced folks in community contexts
and keep in mind, these are sometimes people who are working in local government, or in
a health authority or in a social service delivery agency introducing the concept of
shadow. And shadow is something thats known thats paid attention to in the
psychology [field] for example. But most of the folks who work in these other contexts,
that hasnt been their focus. And so introducing people to the notion of the shadow, both
our personal shadow that we all carry, but also how shadow shows up in group contexts
and in collective in community contexts. And how does that help us to think about
change making not just within ourselves but within the larger collective as well? And it
helps us to then think about how are we going to develop healthy policy for example
healthy public policy? How are we going to design programs that really serve?
So I dont know if that answer [relates] specifically to an online community, but I think in
any community those are the interior factors that we often tend to ignore. And I think
thats one of the lenses that an integral theoretical lens really offers. Its saying pay
attention here its important.
Beth Sanders: Wonderful, thank you Tam. When we talk about what needs to be aligned,
we are also talking about connecting dots. Ann Dale touched base on place. And place is
important to both of you and particularly you Ian. Im wondering how the notion of place
when it comes to inquiry is adjusting in your perspective and when we contemplate an
online, global community, such as this one what is that what are the challenges and the
opportunities with that kind of place emerging for us?
Ian Wight: Well, I think we have to be kind of exploding our sense of place to well
beyond just the geographical or the natural it is that but it really is much much more.
And I guess Im going into the territory of the sort of places of the mind. I also have found
that it works better for me and I appreciate that this might not work for others but I
know there is a great attraction to the whole notion of place, especially our sensing of
place. And that is very important personally, but beyond that, sensing a place there and
how we create common meaning of place. And beyond that there is what I would call
what integral has helped me appreciate would be kind of like a kosmic place making
which is like place making not in your own backyard or on your own high street, but think
of it as a kosmic (with a k) place making. And if I could go into that territory, I have
absolutely no problem with getting into global and virtual environments to play with this.
Ive gone into a focus on place making its getting into the verbing that is involved as I
mentioned before Im interested in community but Im really more interested in what is
involved in communing and taking an interest in that. If you go into place making, the first
aspect of place making, if it can be turned into a process is designing a space for dialogue.
And that is where the design talents that were talking about, that we are inquiring into
now are really really critical getting that space to be so fruitful and congenial for
dialogue.
In my apithology course we work with the notion of trichotomy body, speech, mind - and
the one that I keep coming back to is a trichotomy involving a immunity and intimacy and
curiosity. To the extent that you can design that into whatever place making context I
think were in the business of going places big time. So Im obviously going to continue to
harp on place making.
I should mention that it also connects me with my roots. I am not really a planner by
academic training. I became I socialized into planning I am actually a geographer. All
my degrees are in geography and what I realized - what it was about geography that
fascinated me - was its concern with place. But when I came to teach in a design school, I
had to revisit that and reinvent myself.
But I actually found place was very congenial, especially when I got into the area of what I
called space-place transformation, and I found that that could be a bridge between my
new design discipline and my old planning background where I certainly was very
interested in, I would say, applied spatial planning - not terribly happy with it - wanting to
expand that further.
If you can accept that place making could actually be viewed not just as it is in most
literatures these days, in urban design, local urban contexts think about it at a regional
scale and I do work with it on a city region scale. I look at regions as commonplaces that
we can all call home on that city region scale. But I am encouraged to go even further and
when Im exposed to notions of kosmocentric views, I begin to think, well, what would
kosmic place making look like? And that reference I made earlier to poeisis is one of the
kind of words Im using to try and I guess its like an hypothesis that kosmic place
making will involve a form of poesis, just literally poetry on an epic grand scale.
Beth Sanders: Poesis, poetry on an epic grand scale. Thats nice. You always have such a
way with words Ian. I am going to swing over to Eric just to check in and see if there are
any questions from our audience that they may have for you Ian and Tam? Eric?
Eric Troth: As I hear how we are developing this generative practice of spaces and
drawing in different kinds of sensibilities I am wondering how we can get a flavour of that
right now. What would be kind of things that would make this space that we are exploring
today in this session, and in the conference at large, more of the generative place for
dialogue? Sometimes you know there is that little bit of pointing out instruction, that
noticing of different kinds of awarenesses and Ian you were pointing to intention and
attention. And Im just wondering how we might play with that a little bit here to give a
real taste of what that space feels like here? How do we create that environment right
here?
Ian Wight: What I was noticing in listening to Ann Dale this morning, and I noticed it at
the beginning of this session, was that if I framed this Inquiry Intelligence it works for
me if I turn it into an action Inquiry. But what I am aware of in my integral exploration is
this discrimination beyond just acting to enacting. And I get very curious about that. I have
a hunch around it and I think it has something to do with the agency Ann was talking
about but I would really like to put it out there for those who are interested - what would
not just action inquiry but enaction inquiry look like? Especially in collective terms
because that is what is happening in effect right now in this online conference. We are
pioneering, not just action inquiry but this collective enaction inquiry.
Beth Sanders: Tam what are your thoughts about how to make this particular place that
is emerging more generative?
Tam Lundy: Im not really certain [I can] because my experience is really working with
on-the-ground communities. Online community is something I have a little less experience
with, but I think in order for something for it to be generative it needs to go beyond the
convening it needs to go beyond the discourse itself, and it needs to move out as action
in the world. And so that, I guess, would be a question I would have is - how can all of the
juiciness, the inspiration, the exchange thats happening as ideas are coming together, as
people are connecting with one another - how does that turn into action in our individual
and our collective lives?
[What] I would frame as inquiry perhaps, is how as participants in this kind of dialogue -
how do we take that into our day-to-day lives as change makers in our local communities,
our neighborhoods, our cities? How do we take this and actually enact it in all ways, in
ourselves, but also in terms of helping to build capacity within our physical, our
geographical environment? The organizations we are involved with, whether thats
community organizations, workplace, it doesnt matter? How do we expand our own
change making capacity and put it into action so that we can actually start to measure the
difference that its making in the world?
Beth Sanders: Good. Those are good questions. Ian, I have a question for you. The pre-
modern professionalism that you mentioned earlier and the knowledge that you suggest
may be implemented in the larger professions [some may consider that]pre-modern
may no longer be relevant but what aspects [do you consider] are relevant for today?
Ian Wight: Well I think were trying to - in integral terms - we might consider the dignities
associated with what we now have to call pre-modernity, because we are so pre-occupied
with a term of modernity. But what might we have left behind, especially when were
thinking about, I guess, articulating the whole notion of professionals? And for me that
pre-modern aspect has something to do with kind of rehabilitating some of our original
roots. I see them as maybe Im pushing this interpretation I see them as being spiritual.
I see them as involving professing - think about way back in the very beginning when
professing was just emerging professing from a faith perspective I think the kind of
dignified version of that, would have been a faith perspective that was regardless of a
religious bias, would be passed that.
This notion of professing from a faith perspective, from that time, literally those folks
were challenging the status quo. They were expecting to be challenged by the powers that
be at the time, but they were prepared to profess nevertheless to stand on their ground,
have integrity to be integrated, to be whole in body, mind, heart and soul thats how Im
reading that element of pre-modern professing that we would want to try and bring
forward along with the aspects of modern professionalism that we might want to hold
onto and aspects of postmodern professionalism that we might want to hold onto. I think
there is room when you think of evolving professionalism - and in my case its evolving
professionalism beyond the status quo that [brings] you into some pretty exciting
territory. Those are some of the aspects that we have to reanimate and re-enact in our
post-postmodern professionalism
Beth Sanders: What would you say is the relevance of that to Inquiry Intelligence?
Ian Wight: It goes back to know thyself. Unless you are invested in that and thats a
very fundamental inquiry you could just be sleepwalking your way through life
professionally and otherwise. So that would be the very basic connection to inquiry for me.
And the way Ive developed that I usually talk about the praxis making, not just as an
exercise in knowing thyself, to my students but I encourage them literally in being
themselves getting in touch with that and what Im aware of now, is Im trying to pull
that even further into contemplating what they are becoming and that involves them
thinking about giving attention to what they literally want to make of themselves. So that
takes us into the whole realm of what I call professional self-design.
Tam Lundy: I could add something to that Beth. For me just listening to Ian - what it
brings up is something Ive been pondering quite a bit and its the relationship between
disciplinarity or disciplinary knowledge and ones capacity to act and be in the world. And
I think that what we are noticing in postmodernism, there has been a bit of a tendency,
partly because of the allergy to hierarchy, to worry about things like a sage on the stage
approach and to want to make experts of everyone.
And I think what that pre-modern professionalism helps us to reclaim is the importance of
disciplinary knowledge and experience. And it is important to learn a body of knowledge
and to gain a body of practical experience then one brings that into a collective context
in a way that the offering is much deeper and much richer and much more practical. And
so its a re-claiming those parts of disciplinary knowledge that are so important - and then
adding to that an integral lens for example - for all the gifts of modernity and post-
modernity but not losing that piece - thats really valuable not to lose the importance of
deep deep knowledge in an area, deep expertise in an area.
Eric Troth: It is time now to set up our Break Out Groups. Here is the question for our
Breakout Groups: In what ways does inquiry help us to know ourselves? [Small groups
break out and Eric reconvenes the Speakers with Beth with an invitation to share what
they have heard.]
Beth Sanders: I had a window into a conversation about the dance between the expert
knowing and not knowing and the whole world where you are expected and you dont
know and how can you be expected to know and how can you be open and transparent
about that? And how there is a similar dance between knowing and not knowing within a
wider community because, of course, the wider community has the benefit of having that
expert knowledge but also doesnt know. There was a neat exploration of that dance
between knowing and not knowing at the scales of the expert or profession and at the
scale of community.
Tam, what did you listen into?
Tam Lundy: Well we had a very similar conversation and the need to be in both places
both to know what we know and to acknowledge there are some things that we know but
also at the same time being able to hold that space of not knowing. And particularly when
we are working with complexity, thats absolutely essential and then the third piece of
that was the kind of knowing that comes from inner [knowing]. So you know that kind of
inner knowing where you just know and it could be an intuitive hit or an insight or an aha,
but it sets you on a different track and you just know its the right track because it came
from that place that youve learned how to trust.
And then we had a fourth aspect and that was the humour that can erupt within a depth of
inquiry being held. And one of our participants said its really the reward if nothing else
comes, just being able to engage with humour is an important part of that inquiry.
Beth Sanders: What reflections did you hear Ian?
Ian Wight: I listened to the same group as Tam I think. One of the participants actually
spoke to a struggle, a tension within them between what was described as a propensity to
share what is in the cup versus just coming with an empty cup a vessel to be filled. And
just realizing the tension that might be occurring in the online conference, we are having
to shift from a very intense receiving posture, receiving inputs and in this case it was from
myself and Tam, and were asking folks to quite radically shift into some sort of
transmitting out themselves and how can that be done smoothly.
I actually had a chance to comment and pursue this aspect in terms of the quality of the
value of the pause. It happens to be an inquiry that is very alive for us in our Ginger West
node at the moment we are trying to get at the power of pause. And what I was hearing
was basically in terms of a way of inquiry that might help us to know ourselves, is that
maybe we need to give more positive appreciation of pausing. There is transformative
potential when just giving ourselves the gift of a pause. So maybe we I dont know how
we build that in to a session like this, but that was very alive for me. I also liked the
comment about humour.
What came up from you there was maybe we build in some improv possibilities in terms
of the feedback. We just invite people to feel free to offer off-the-wall comments as well as
kind of in context to comments.
Beth Sanders: Wonderful. Those are fabulous reflections as we wrap up. Tam I want to
thank you for your lucidity - your simplicity and clarity around an integral approach to
cities. There is a PowerPoint that Tam has posted to the website. And you can find out
more about Tams work at her website: www. communitiesthatcan.org .
And Ian thanks for your always generative wordplay. You are always so inventive as you
think and inquire its been very exciting to have window into how you are thinking.
Lundy presentation Appendix

























































Integial City eLab 0ctobei 2S, 2u12
1
Aligning Stiategies to Piospei -
Logic Piocessois Connecting the Bots
"#$% $&' (#)*) $*) () +,-.),)&%+&/ +&01+*2 +&%)..+/)&3)4
Speakeis: }oanne Beviies, Ann Peioueau
Bost: Baviu Fabei
Septembei 18, 2u12
56$&&) 7)8*+)9, Founuei of Fiesh 0utlook Founuation, is a
communications consultant who has woikeu with local goveinments
thioughout Biitish Columbia, Canaua, since 1992 to help them connect
with theii iesiuents about sustainability anu ielateu topics such as
community planning, watei anu wastewatei management, aii quality,
eneigy efficiency, soliu waste ieuuction, anu tianspoitation uemanu
management. The mission of Fiesh 0utlook Founuation is to help builu
sustainable communities thiough enhanceu communication anu collaboiation. }oanne has
been the Piouucei of five Sustainable Community Confeiences in Kelowna, BC, that have
attiacteu significant iegional, national anu global attenuance ovei the last uecaue.
:&& ;)*6')$1 NA is a tiaining anu uevelopment consultant with a
giowing piactice in 0iganizational Change. Bei euucation anu caieei
path have taken hei fiom a laige national oiganization to woiking with
tioubleu stieet youth, teaching in an innei city school, anu ueveloping
soft skills foi oiganizations. Ann's ieseaich has exploieu the gap between
peisonal anu coipoiate ethics. She cuiiently teaches at Royal Roaus
0niveisity in the NBA, Leaueiship, anu uiauuate Ceitificate in
Sustainable Community Bevelopment piogiams. Bei moie iecent teaching about builuing
sustainable communities is founueu on the pillais of Ethics, Systems, Community
Bevelopment anu Appieciative Inquiiy. Bei woik involves uesigning anu ueliveiing
stiategic planning initiatives using appieciative inquiiy, in seivice to uniting anu
eneigizing oiganizations to accomplish the change they uesiie.
7$<+' =$>)*? }oanne, in oui conveisations pieviously you weie wanting to shaie with us
youi expeiiences at the Fiesh 0utlook Founuation, so why uon't we stait theie.
56$&&) 7)8*+)9: The intent of the Fiesh 0utlook Founuation is to builu sustainable
communities thiough conveisations that inspiie positive change, anu we uo that in a
numbei of uiffeient ways. What uiffeientiates us fiom othei oiganizations like ouis is that
fiist of all we look at all sustainability issues; so cultuial, social, enviionmental, anu
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 2S, 2u12 2
economic, anu we involve all sectois, so people fiom goveinment, business, nonpiofit, anu
acauemic sectois anu the geneial public in all of oui events anu piogiams.
Piobably what is most ielevant to oui conveisation touay is all of what we uo is baseu on
success stoiies anu what's happening in communities all aiounu the woilu to help people
solve theii sustainability challenges. I believe ieally stiongly that foi eveiy challenge a
community has, theie is anothei community somewheie else in the woilu that is actually
auuiessing that in a veiy innovative anu successful way. So we ieally uo like to have
people come togethei at eveiy oppoitunity anu shaie stoiies about what's woiking anu
how they've motivateu theii communities to actually acceleiate the move towaiu
community sustainability.
7$<+': So }oanne, in that case, you hau mentioneu the community challenges anu that
cities fiom aiounu the woilu, if you actually ieach out, theie's a solution foi them. Bo you
have some examples you coulu shaie with us.
56$&&): I know, foi example, at oui Builuing Sustainable Communities Confeiences we
woik veiy haiu to biing the best speakeis fiom aiounu the woilu to actually auuiess
some of these issues. What we finu at the confeience is that people come togethei anu
they not only heai about these global successes, oi successes in othei paits of the woilu,
but they also shaie successes amongst each othei. Foi example, iepiesentatives fiom
uiffeient communities in Biitish Columbia, in Canaua will talk amongst themselves about
what's woiking anu what's not. I finu that that ieally is the most inspiiing way to get
people stokeu about community sustainability, anu ieally is the most effective anu cost-
efficient way, because it pievents human anu financial uuplication.
7$<+': 0ne of the questions I have to follow up with is aiounu sustainability. Peihaps this
is a bit on inquiiy into what you weie just saying. You mentioneu sustainability, anu that
language of sustainability, as pait of the uiffeient confeiences that you holu. I've heaiu the
woiu misuseu sometimes, you've heaiu "sustainability" put in a lot of uiffeient languaging
in teims of what it actually means, anu uiffeient inteipietation, anu I'm cuiious to
unueistanu a bit moie of what you believe sustainability is.
56$&&): Eveiything we uo is baseu on the concept of Community Sustainability, anu so
what that means to me is that a community is sustainable if it attains anu maintains social,
cultuial, enviionmental, anu economic wellbeing ovei time. Eveiything we uo is aimeu at
getting to that point. As I mentioneu befoie, because that's a faiily big job, of couise, anu
involves all the uiffeient topics anu all the uiffeient sectois, we builu in vaiious ways,
wheie we can get people fiom those uiffeient sectois togethei, talking about what they
aie uoing. A peifect example is oui Real Change Sustainability Film Fest. We'ie coming up
on oui fouith annual film fest in Kelowna this yeai; we've also expanueu to Kamloops anu
now into thiee othei cities as well. We show a numbei of films about a numbei of uiffeient
sustainability topics, anu then we have a panel of expeits to sit anu uiscuss the film aftei
it's ovei.
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 2S, 2u12 S
So, foi example, we have a film about agiicultuie anu foou secuiity, we woulu have
someone fiom local goveinment, fiom business, fiom the local univeisity anu peihaps
fiom a non-piofit oiganization who woulu all talk about that paiticulai subject fiom a
local peispective anu what local solutions to that issue might be.
I'u like to shaie a veiy quick stoiy about how effective that is. We hau a woman who
attenueu one of oui film fests a few yeais ago. She was inteiesteu in gaiuening but haun't
ieally given too much thought about how she coulu use that inteiest in a positive way.
What she leaineu at the film was amazing, anu she went up anu talkeu to the uiffeient
panelists aftei the film was ovei anu aftei the panel uiscussion was finisheu. She went
away with an iuea of what she coulu uo in hei own community to biing this to life. As a
iesult, she founu a huge plot of lanu in hei neighboihoou, anu she woikeu with the local
goveinment, with local business, with uiffeient non-piofit oiganizations anu with hei
neighbois, anu now they have a huge community gaiuen with moie than thiity plots anu
the foou that they geneiate, they give away to the foou bank, anu it has incieaseu
community iuentity anu community inclusion anu cohesion. Eveiy time I talk with hei
about it she's even moie exciteu than she was the last time. It's just ieally exciting to me
that what we'ie uoing is actually fiom a piactical peispective being beneficial.
7$<+': I ieally uo appieciate the amount of effoit to ieally biing people togethei anu have
that type of uialogue. Bow uo you get that message back out. Bow uo you stait that
piocess of shaiing within the uiffeient gioups that you biing togethei.
56$&&): Well we opeiate on the piemise of community-baseu social maiketing in most of
what we uo. Baseu on those piinciples we know people have to fiist of all leain something
about a topic befoie they can peihaps have an attituue shift about that. So they leain. Anu
then you have to engage them emotionally, because if they uon't engage emotionally, they
won't move fiom !"#$%&%' to ()&%'. So, foi example, again at the film fest, with people
leaining about a subject thiough the film, anu then being emotionally engageu in
uiscussion, not only with the panelists, but with each othei, because as a facilitatoi I have
people sitting aiounu them, anu they just bieak off into little au hoc uiscussion gioups,
anu whatevei.
Then what that emotional engagement uoes is actually take people to a place of
inspiiation anu motivation foi change. We've been veiy foitunate in that the woik we uo
is having an actual, measuiable impact. I can thank the Canaua Revenue Agency foi that,
because when we finally achieveu oui uistiict chaiity status they saiu, "We want you to
uevelop a way of measuiing if what you aie uoing is actually effective." So as a social
maiketei, I thought long anu haiu about that, anu now we have veiy, veiy uetaileu
evaluation suiveys that aie emaileu to all of oui paiticipants following each event. What
we'ie finuing is that, foi example, in the Builuing Sustainable Communities Confeience we
have up to 7S% of uelegates |whoj have actually intiouuceu new plans oi policies oi
piactices oi piogiams oi piojects at woik as a iesult of what they've leaineu oi who they
met at the confeience.
We have those kinus of statistics foi all the events we uo. It's veiy exciting to see that if
you take people thiough that piocess of fiist euucating them anu then engaging them
emotionally anu then giving them the inspiiation anu the motivation to move foiwaiu to
actual behavioi change, it's ieally exciting that that actually woiks on the giounu.
7$<+': I was actually taking a look at youi website ovei the last seveial uays anu I noticeu
a iefeience to Bieakfast of Champions, an event that you put on to biing people togethei.
Fiom what I can tell, it's actually a whole netwoiking with people as well, anu so you'ie
staiting to get out anu let people know what's going on, anu heaiing fiom them, anu I'm
wonueiing if you can uesciibe that a little bit fuithei.
56$&&): Nany of the events we uo aie focuseu on people fiom all sectois, anu Bieakfast of
Champions is as well, but oui piimaiy taiget foi that is local business people. We iuentify
a business, foi example, that is uoing a ieally goou job in some aiea of sustainability anu
we invite them to become hosts foi oui bieakfast. Foi example, at oui last bieakfast we
woikeu with the Kelowna Toyota uealeiship. They cleaieu out theii showioom anu we
moveu in tables anu tablecloths anu cutleiy anu tablewaie anu hau this foimal bieakfast
anu showeu a few shoit little viueos about businesses that weie uoing ieally well. They
showcaseu theii eneigy savings as a iesult of theii new lighting system in theii showioom
anu in theii paiking lot anu then they hau touis about the kinus of things that they weie
uoing in othei aieas of theii opeiations to ieuuce eneigy use anu watei use anu ieuuce
waste.
It is soit of a uouble whammy theie because the local business is getting to showcase what
they uo anu we get to biing people fiom uiffeient sectois again togethei to talk about
what's woiking anu who's who anu wheie they can leain moie. With the Bieakfast of
Champions, foi example, we paitnei with the powei utility heie, Foitis BC, anu so they pay
us to sponsoi the event, they get to go in theie anu talk about theii eneigy-efficiency
iebate piogiams, so people fiom all sectois aie able to benefit.
Foi example, at one of them we hau a fellow fiom the local univeisity who is a
tianspoitation piofessoi anu engineei. Be came in anu talkeu about tianspoitation fiom
his peispective as an acauemic, anu fiom a planning peispective. It's just again anothei
oppoitunity to have those conveisations anu to get people again communicating anu
collaboiating so that we can acceleiate these actions towaius sustainability.
7$<+': What I'm heaiing in what you aie saying is it's actually about euucating people;
they'ie coming in; they'ie leaining new things about whatevei that topic may be; they'ie
then getting engageu. I heaiu you say many times, they become emotionally connecteu to
it; they'ie being willeu to uo it, it is something they then become passionate about. Then I
ieally love closing the loop that you weie uesciibing aiounu evaluation, anu taking a look
to see now how aie things actually peifoiming, anu feeuing that back into that piocess. So
I pictuie this ciicle with each one of these pieces going thiough, anu so that's pietty uain
amazing the connections that you have to biing people togethei.
0ne of the teims we've been using piioi to this conveisation is "meshwoiking," anu I veiy
much see you as a meshwoikei. I imagine youi ielationships aie quite ueep, in fact.
56$&&): I am a connectoi; that is something that I ieally uiscoveieu about myself,
paiticulaily ovei the last five yeais. I think anothei thing that woiks ieally well foi us at
the Founuation is that we nevei assume that we've iuentifieu all of the auuience oi all of
the issues oi all of the solutions. An example is, touay I met with a young fellow who is
Piesiuent of an oiganization at the college heie calleu SIFE, Stuuents in Fiee Enteipiise.
We got togethei to talk about how I coulu help him anu how he coulu help me anu what
we came up with was, he woulu like me to be involveu in theii uiscussions about social
enteipiise, because we have a social enteipiise unuei the Founuation that actually eains
money that is funneleu back into the Founuation. Be can help me by helping builu
components into events that will |attiactj moie people his age anu moie people who aie
inteiesteu in business.
Foi example, he can biing not only all of the college stuuents, but the SIFE membeis anu
young piofessionals to the next confeience, if I woik with him now to iuentify what theii
infoimation neeus aie, anu how we can best meet those, how we can help them engage
with the subject mattei again, anu how ultimately that can leau to change, anu then be
measuieu back against the whole piocess.
7$<+': That's actually fantastic when I heai you say that. I have been connecteu
peisonally with SIFE in the past thiough the Rotaiy Club, anu we hau some stuuents come
in anu actually weie uoing some uevelopment woik in Inuia anu hau come up with a new
iuea of piouucing veiy inexpensive watei filtiation using clay pots. It was amazing to see
what they weie uoing anu weie foiming this as a business anu that at the same time
making a huge uiffeience. The cost compaieu to something you woulu tiauitionally
puichase was oiueis of magnituue less expensive so all of a suuuen people coulu affoiu to
have clean watei anu not get sick fiom uiinking theii watei, anu that engagement of youth
as you'ie uesciibing is something I coulu uefinitely see as a stiong connection going
foiwaiu.
56$&&): That just biings to minu again anothei focus that we have at the Founuation,
which is mentoiship. As I was meeting with this fellow touay, he was just absolutely
uelightful. Be was so engageu, anu passionate anu aiticulate anu so obviously hopeful
about what he coulu achieve in his futuie. I saiu to him, "If I can teach you what I've
leaineu ovei the last five yeais, you'll have a thiity yeai heau stait on me." I think that as
people my age in oui inuustiy, we ieally must just take eveiy oppoitunity to mentoi
young people because they ieally aie the futuie. They look at things veiy uiffeiently but
theie's no ieason why they can't take what we've leaineu, see it thiough a uiffeient lens,
anu use it to again acceleiate the move. Because, ieally, we uo have such uigent ecological
challenges, that unless we expeuite oui actions, anu uo that collaboiatively thiough
communication, we'ie not going to get wheie we neeu to go in time.
7$<+': You iaise something I finu veiy fascinating that's peihaps an age uiffeience in
iegaius to Inquiiy Intelligence, anu connecting us back to the theme foi this conveisation.
Is theie a uiffeience baseu on age foi how you uo Inquiiy, let's say with youth as pait of
the SIFE piogiam.
56$&&): I believe so. I think ceitainly as a facilitatoi - as a consultant, that's what I uo foi
my ieal job - anu I finu that you have to be veiy awaie of the cultuial uiffeiences between
oluei people anu youngei people, anu people of uiffeient genueis anu lifestyles, anu
people of uiffeient ethnicities, ceitainly. But I think when we boil it all uown, we all want
the same things, anu that's again anothei ieason why I ieally enjoy biinging people fiom
all sectois to talk about these issues. Because each sectoi biings something veiy veiy
unique. If you look at a local goveinment iepiesentative veisus a business iepiesentative
veisus a non-piofit veisus a univeisity piofessoi veisus a neighboihoou association
piesiuent, eveiy one of those people comes with uiffeient expeiience, uiffeient expeitise,
uiffeient passions, uiffeient styles of communicating anu pioblem-solving. Theie's
nothing moie fun than being in a gioup like that anu biainstoiming potential solutions. It's
just a huge iush.
7$<+': What I'm heaiing you say is that in that Inquiiy piocess, having uiveisity is
amazing.
56$&&): It's the only way to uo it. I can explain. I've been to a numbei of confeiences
within each sectoi; so foi example, you'll go to a local goveinment confeience, anu you'll
see what local goveinments aie uoing to builu moie sustainable communities. Anu then
you go to a confeience that is a business confeience anu you'll see what uiffeient
businesses aie uoing to become moie sustainable fiom a tiiple bottom-line peispective.
Anu when you stanu back anu you say, "Ny goouness, if you took what this sectoi uoes
anu what this sectoi uoes, anu put them togethei, you get something that is bettei than
both." Which biings to minu something that I've ieally glommeu onto iecently. which is
"thiiu alteinative" thinking. I encouiage eveiyone listening to buy a book by Steven R.
Covey calleu *+" *+&$( -!."$%#.&/". It talks about how we can biing the best of eveiy
peison's expeiience anu expeitise, anu as I saiu, passion anu pioblem-solving styles, anu
builu something that is bettei than what any one of us coulu have envisioneu alone.
I'u just like to shaie a quick stoiy that ieally toucheu my heait. At oui last confeience, on
the last uay, I talkeu about thiiu alteinative thinking, anu about how I thought this is
wheie we ieally neeueu to move towaiu. I hau seven Thiiu Alteinative books to give away.
I saiu theie weie thiee things people hau to uo in oiuei to take one of the books. Fiist of
all they hau to piomise to ieau it fiom covei to covei. Seconu, they hau to apply it to a
community challenge, anu thiiu, they hau to be willing to come back to oui next
confeience anu talk about how they uiu. Theie was a fellow fiom the States who was a
piopeity managei anu he stoou up anu saiu he ieally wanteu one of the books so I gave it
to him, thinking that I might likely nevei heai fiom him again.
Well, about thiee oi foui months latei, I got a phone call fiom a fiienu of his, who saiu he'u
gone back to his apaitment builuings in the States anu he built a numbei of community
gaiuens in these apaitment builuing complexes. Not only was it incieuible fiom a
community iuentity anu cohesion anu enviionmental peispective, but he got calls fiom the
local police saying that wheie they hau built these community gaiuens, theie was a
uistinct ieuuction in ciime in those neighboihoous. It was so obvious that the police weie
actually able to |noticej these community gaiuens anu wheie they weie locateu. So, again,
it's just |speaksj to me of how, if you shaie these messages, this infoimation, in a way that
euucates anu engages people, you automatically inspiie them anu motivate them to move
on to positive actions. So I'm solu on that concept.
7$<+': Well it sounus fantastic to leau fiom community gaiuens to a ieuuction in ciime,
anu stiengthening the community within that neighboihoou, oi stiengthening the
neighboihoou itself. That's just a wonueiful example to heai. We ceitainly coulu make
moie use of that, that's foi suie. In teims of what you've just saiu, it connects back to that
euucate, engage, anu inspiie to action.
You've shaieu a lot of successes of what's happeneu heie anu thiough conveisation, anu I
actually wanteu to move ovei to Ann anu ask Ann to uesciibe a bit fuithei now the
successes that you've heaiu fiom }oanne anu thiough conveisation, if you can uesciibe a
bit moie about Appieciative Inquiiy anu leau us thiough youi pait of the piesentation.
:&& ;)*6')$1: Well thank you. I was mauly making notes because the alignments
between what }oanne is uoing anu Appieciative Inquiiy aie so stiong that it's almost going
to feel iepetitious in what we'll be talking about. But I think if I coulu stait anu leveiage off
of that exciting woik that }oanne is uoing, anu just say one thing that I think ieally lanueu
with me. That is how veiy, veiy ueeply giatifying it must be to be able to tiack the changes,
anu to be able to know anu see anu finu out what a uiffeience these initiatives aie having.
Anu that's one aiea that neeus to be attenueu to bettei in Appieciative Inquiiy.
A lot the philosophical unueipinnings aie piofounu between the two |of usj- maybe if I
just touch base on a few of them, anu we can get into the actual piocess itself. The whole
aspect of getting a uiveise gioup - with Appieciative Inquiiy you tiy veiy haiu to think
about who might be youi stakeholueis, who might be the people inteiesteu in a pait of the
uecision-making, oi affecteu by what the issue is, anu tiy veiy haiu to get that invitation
out to eveiyone, incluuing people who have been seen as the baiiieis to piogiess. Because
often people tiy to hiue fiom the people whom they see as the naysayeis oi the
gatekeepeis. It is a little bit like aikiuo - you use the eneigy to woik with the eneigy, anu
tuin people in the uiiection that you want them to be facing. It is veiy tianspaient in an
ethical kinu of the way.
The othei thing that is common is the positive focus. It is a ieal uiscipline - in Appieciative
Inquiiy - almost eveiy client anu community that I have gone into uo this, staits the
conveisation with me, in the engagement stage saying, we have that pioblem anu that
pioblem, anu by the time we ueciue we aie going to uo this thing, they aie veiy cleai that
on the uay oi uays we aie uoing the Appieciative Inquiiy initiative, theie will be no talking
about pioblems, anu theie will be no talking about baiiieis.
We talkeu about the baiiieis that get in oui way between now anu the City 2.u anu I
woulu be veiy ue-eneigizeu by the time we weie finisheu with that, you know. You can go
on foievei anu make absolutely no piogiess. So the alignment theie is veiy stiong, anu
piobably the toughest thing the facilitatoi has to uo is say, "we acknowleuge theie aie
uifficulties, but we aie going to spenu oui time talking about what is woiking anu what it
is you want, anu not those baiiieis." Anothei wonueiful paiallel that I saw with what
}oanne was saying is those syneigies that come out of this, the suipiises anu wheie it
|comes outj. "Notivate people to acceleiate towaius sustainable change."
0ne of the texts that I have been teaching fiom is by }ane Nagiuuei-Watkins anu Beinaiu
Nohi, anu the title is -00$"1&#.&/" 2%34&$5, but the subtitle is "6+#%'" #. .+" 70""( )8
29#'&%#.&)%:" anu that is kinu of what happens- you go slow to go fast - anu so by uwelling
in the level of the stoiies anu by what is valueu, by the time you get to the Besign phase, it
is like lightning. Eveiything that you have uone - anu uoesn't seem to be planning at all -
emeiges veiy, veiy quickly into |something that isjtotally aligneu, filleu with syneigies
that moves veiy, veiy quickly - anu not only conveisation, it moves out to the uoing veiy
quickly as well. It is quite extiaoiuinaiy to watch.
Anu also I heaiu emeigence, anu that is uefinitely the case with the piocess heie - that you
cannot know wheie you want to enu up, because as }oanne saiu, wheie you might enu up,
is an entiiely uiffeient place than wheie you thought you woulu enu up. anu much bettei.
So iathei than uiiving the gioup towaius a pieueteimineu conclusion anu selling them on
it, you aie actually fiameu on getting the leaining out of the gioup, anu they aie uoing the
woik. Anu they uon't have to be expeits to uo the woik, which is anothei inteiesting
aspect. You get to a place which usually suipiises anu uelights eveiyone involveu. Bo you
want an example.
7$<+': Yes please.
:&&: I was woiking with a veiy, veiy tiny not-foi-piofit that was ueeply conceineu about
abanuoneu chiluien in huge oiphanages in a paiticulai town in China. They hau veiy little
iesouices, anu veiy little iesouices on the giounu, in teims of people. They hau been
opeiating foi a couple of yeais, anu they ueciueu that they woulu uo some stiategic
planning using Appieciative Inquiiy (AI). They hau significant pioblems in teims of
unethical behavioi of the executive uiiectoi (the managei on the giounu in China), anu
fiustiation that they felt that they weien't making veiy much piogiess - so many
abanuoneu chiluien, so little money, so gieat a neeu. The piogiam's piogiess with getting
the community on boaiu was kinu of slow. So we woikeu thiough a whole evening getting
theii stoiies of successes. When they fiist walkeu in the uooi, they wanteu to talk about
how upset they weie about this managei, anu how fiustiateu they weie about the slow
piogiess. We just sat aiounu, anu one by one got theii stoiies of the gieatest piiue that
they hau in woiking with this not-foi-piofit. All the kinus of things they hau seen that hau
happeneu out of it. They weie ieal stoiies like, "tell me about a time when ." - a bounueu
moment in time.
That went slowly, because it neeus to go slowly. They got the stoiies, they themeu the
stoiies foi what was in each stoiy. Anu then on the seconu night we moveu into the Bieam.
Well they hau such gieat ie-uiscoveiing of theii passion anu iealizing fiom heaiing each
othei's stoiies which they uiun't know, that they weie actually uoing veiy well. Anu when
they lookeu at what unity they hau aiounu theii values anu what weie the unueilying
themes foi all of theii successes, they iealizeu that wheie they neeueu to go was towaius a
family enviionment.
So they entiiely shifteu theii uiiection when they got to the Besign stage. So insteau of
tiying to uo bettei within the oiphanage, which was going to be like pushing this huge
bouluei uphill anu just seeing maiginal gains eveiy yeai. They just hau this flash of insight
that they woulu builu a community that woulu help the local community finu housing, anu
they woulu put a few chiluien with each family. Anu I am uiawing a pictuie with my hanus,
which of couise you can't see - if you can imagine soit of a ciicle of houses with a gaiuen
in the centei. Anu that eveiy family woulu have one oi thiee chiluien, but they woulu all
have these soits of mutual suppoit, anu they wanteu to be like fostei paients foi these
oiphans. Anu they hookeu it into uoing an ecological piece too, that woulu help the
community in ecological sustainability. Anu it was like eveiybouy soit of piactically
jumpeu to theii feet anu cheeieu, because they hau an entiiely uiffeient uiiection than
they anticipateu. But they weie willing ie-ueuicate themselves foi maybe a uecaue in
oiuei to make this thing happen, but it was not pie-planneu. It was entiiely |emeigentj.
7$<+': So then Ann, one of the questions that suifaces foi me, |ielates toj the statement
that you weie saying pieviously: "you can't know wheie you aie going in oiuei to
ueteimine wheie you'ie enuing up." You know, you can't have a pie-ueteimineu
conclusion. You use the language of tiust, faith, if you will, oi being able to take that step
out into the unknown. Ny obseivation is that, paiticulaily foi goveinments, that can be
pietty uaineu uifficult. Bow aie you able to uiaw people into a space oi a place wheie
they can take that step.
:&&: Well fiist of all theie is a paiauox, anu the paiauox is, you can't be uiiving towaius a
paiticulai plan that you hau in minu all along. Because then why invite people. Why not
just have an infoimation session, if that is the case. But you uo neeu a vision. So in the
piocess of uoing this, theie is a seconu step . The piocess is with the inclusive anu uiveise
gioups, as a little hieiaichical piocess, you have them ciaft a vision that happens aftei
they have tolu theii stoiies, anu aftei they have founu the themes in those stoiies. Because
that vision neeus not just to be about a shining new futuie that they uon't have now, but
the vision has to incoipoiate all the things that aie going well now - all the successes they
have hau now. The change mouel foi heie uoes not involve any teiminology about giief.
You aie taking with you into the futuie the best of the piesent anu the past. Anu then youi
futuie involves co-cieating this ieally exciting huge stietch into that futuie that you ieally
want to have. Theie is no point in playing small in this.
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 2S, 2u12 1u
So out of that you move into the thiiu stage, which is: okay, if we've alieauy got these
stiengths, anu if pait of oui stiategy is we aie going to multiply those things - we aie
going to uo moie of what's woiking, we'ie going to impiove what's alieauy goou but coulu
be bettei, we aie going to uo moie of that at an impioveu level. Anu what's missing. What
is it that we neeu to take |caie ofj. What else we haven't been seeing that we coulu be
uoing. This is infoimeu by what }oanne is uoing.
Anu then they get that vision, anu you move them into : all iight, how aie you going to get
theie. Anu it gets piactical again. Beie is anothei connection to }oanne - they aie so
exciteu. They aie so emotionally involveu, because they have gone back to theii belief that
this is possible. They can see that a huge uiffeience can be maue. So they aie exciteu, they
know they've got huge alignment, anu they'ie ieauy to think about: so how uo we make
this happen.
I was thinking about the veiy fiist AI which I co-facilitateu |foij a leainei I hau at Royal
Roaus 0niveisity. It was with a non-piofit on vancouvei Islanu. They hau a conflict |with
thej Boaiu about theii uiiection. Anu they hau a Boaiu that saiu: look, half of us aie aging
anu about to ietiie, we have no eneigy anymoie. Anu young people who wanteu to gallop
off in a uiffeient uiiection. Anu they weie small anu piimaiily volunteei. So half of them
weie saying, "we can't go big," anu the othei half weie saying, "we have to go big." So I saiu,
iathei than fighting, why uon't we just uo Appieciative Inquiiy anu see wheie you enu up.
You have to tiust the piocess because I can't tell you wheie you'ie going to enu up. You'ie
going to be uoing all of that anu I'm just going to be facilitating without any offeiing any
contiibutions.
If you poll the people fiom when they walkeu in the uooi to wheie they went out, you
woulun't iecognize the gioup. When they went out, I was both incieuibly exciteu to see
what they hau ueciueu to uo, anu at the same time, teiiifieu. Because if these aie the same
people that saiu that they coulun't uo much, anu they weie going to ietiie, anu that weie
low on iesouices, then what they hau ueciueu to uo, anu fiimly committeu to uo
themselves, was way moie than they hau evei uone befoie.
So as I tell my classes, because it's one of my favoiite stoiies, I hiu fiom them foi foui
yeais. I uiu not follow up. Totally cowaiuly. I saiu, hmm, okay, I hope it's going well. Then
one uay I got a phone call fiom the Executive Biiectoi. Anu the Executive Biiectoi saiu, so
uo you iemembei what we uiu. Anu I saiu yes. So he saiu, well you know all those gieat
piojects we hau. Anu I thought, oh ueai, the iomance anu excitement about this piocess
anu we cieateu this impossible uieam. Anu I saiu yes. Anu he saiu, well we've uone it all.
Can you come back, because we neeu to uo AI again foi the next set of things.
Now when he saiu, "we've uone all those things," that incluueu, I think it was a million-
uollai LEEB stanuaiu enviionmental, passive anu active solai builuing to ieplace a shack.
It incluueu ienovating a massive uingy kitchen with one of those huge iion stoves to be a
teaching culinaiy aits kitchen; ienovating a uining ioom so that theii clients coulu not
only leain how to cook, but the ones who weie veiy low ability coulu leain how to seive
anu bus tables. A gazebo, piogiams - oh! Anu the big one - the big one was what was
uiviuing the Boaiu: "Will we oi won't we take up the offei to have ueuicateu lanu if we will
builu a housing uevelopment on the lanu." They weie a faiming community. They hau
nevei been in the business of builuing houses - a tiny little not-foi-piofit - so they ueciueu
to uo it all!
7$<+': That's fantastic Ann. I've got a numbei of Boaius that ceitainly coulu use that help
as well. Anu I guess maybe along that line of thought, what aie some of the ways you see
baiiieis. I'm cuiious as to how you cieateu that space wheie people weie able to stait
opening up anu have that tiust. Aie theie baiiieis oi things that you pay attention to in
oiuei to shape this way, oi at least to cieate that space foi this type of uialogue to happen.
:&&: Baviu that is veiy funny - you aie asking me about baiiieis, anu I am uoing
Appieciative Inquiiy. |Laughteij - so why. I iefuse to answei that question!
So why uon't we just talk about the piocess. Anu by a quick iun-thiough of the piocess -
we've alieauy hoppeu aiounu a bit - you might see baiiieis uissolve, because you'ie
actually caught - we uon't talk uiiectly about the baiiieis. You talk about what you can uo.
So foi those of you who have PoweiPoint up on the thiiu sliue, you aie focusing youi
eneigy on what woiks. Anu the stoiies aie essential. You can't shoit-ciicuit that by saying,
" we aie goou at ." - Anu you know how - with the veibal "bullets points". You have to
giounu it in human stoiy, with all that messy uetail that comes with stoiies, because
sometimes it is not the uiiect action, anu the thing that was uone, that gives the
bieakthiough - the aha - sometimes it's the kinu of othei things that weie going on that
maue that possible that become the impoitant thing.
So you sit aiounu at tables anu you tell stoiies, anu the stoiies aie all about fantastic
things that people aie piouu of. Anu sometimes those things aie ieally small, but they aie
what aie memoiable to people. Then you move on to say, okay, while you'ie at youi table
shaiing these stoiies, can you just tease out the themes insiue each stoiy. Why aie you
piouu of that. What maue it woik. What aie the unueilying values. So foi me, that isn't
always |uone by otheisj- not all liteiatuie on this asks foi unueilying values - but I think it
is absolutely essential. Because one of the things that happens when you ask foi
unueilying values is that when people heai what ueoige's unueilying values aie, anu what
Naiy's unueilying values aie, people iealize they shaie the same values - but maybe they
uiun't get along befoie. Anu now they iealize that they aie fai moie alike in the impoitant
aieas than they thought.
Now you get all those themes out anu you aie slowly staiting to ieuuce the complexity,
anu then you ask people, "Bow woulu you uesciibe youiself." Anu you have up on the wall
all of these themes that aie now clusteieu, so they get ieuuceu uown to the ieally key
aieas that have shaieu meaning - anu so you say, "This is the best of who you aie. Bow
woulu you put this into woius." Anu then they uo that. Anu those woius tenu to be iathei
glowing, because they aie focuseu only what has been woiking.
Anu then noimally you talk about baiiieis, but we shift iight into going ovei the minusets
anu some of the examples that get to the 4B mouel. You then Biscovei -which is the stoiies
anu the theming of the stoiies - anu then you move to Bieams - which is the next stage.
That's when you uo the vision. the vision without those baiiieis. So when you get to the
Besign stage anu you aie saying how uo we get to the vision. The plan that people put into
place will always automatically |havej the stiategies that will suimount the baiiieis.
If we weie uoing this with the folks signeu up heie, anu we weie uoing it on the question
of, "I am the City 2.u - uieam me, builu me, make me ieal," then we woulu stait with
people telling a stoiy of gieat piiue they have about theii city. Foi example, I live neai
Calgaiy anu we have a ieally state-of-the-ait waste tieatment facility that is multimoual
anu uses biological piocesses anu veiy, veiy few chemicals, which I'm veiy piouu of.
So we tell oui stoiies, anu we theme oui stoiies, anu then we say, so what woulu we want
to caiiy foiwaiu out of all of oui stoiies collectively. What kinus of things uo we want to
uo in City 2.u. Anu that woulu be a maivelous collection in anu of itself. Anu because it's
alieauy been uone - }oanne alluueu to this - because it is alieauy happening, you can uo it
ieally easily. You just ieplicate what that stoiy says. So you put it into the plan foi the
futuie. We woulu also want to get the values out of people, that come out of each stoiy. We
pull it foiwaiu into the Bieam phase, anu you get them aiounu theii tables anu say okay,
uon't be shy, uon't |holu backj . Take a leap foi what youi heait ieally wants foi the
futuie of oui planet. What uo you want foi youi gianuchiluien. What uo you want foi
youi gieat gieat gianuchiluien. To be this splenuiu, wonueiful place that they aie living
anu woiking in.
So going iight out theie collaboiatively anu with that uiveisity that you have at those
tables - anu then. if we uiu that anu saiu to people: "So out of the stoiies that you tolu anu
what you ueciueu to pull into the futuie that we aie alieauy uoing anu the vision that you
have, wheie uo we stait. What things neeu to be uone." Anu I guaiantee people woulu
have iueas. They woulu just be bubbling with excitement anu wanting to shaie that.
Anu again, you uon't uo that alone, you know. You have people. self-oiganize again
aiounu the iueas that inteiest people, which often involves an aiea of expeitise, anu have
them woik togethei aiounu hashing these out to a ceitain uegiee.
Anu then you say: "We'll stop now. Bon't take it any fuithei, because you ieally neeu to
shaie." Anu heie's wheie anothei piece of magic happens. Because if you take it just,
maybe half an houi into the uiscussion - 4S minutes is wheie I usually stop it in ieal teims
- anu ask people to iepoit out to the othei tables, wheie they hau gotten to with theii
iuea. What happens, inevitably, is someone else says, "oh well we aie uiscussing this anu
it fits with what you aie uoing beautifully." Anu so they neeu to cioss-infoim one anothei,
anu what emeiges out of this is, it looks at the enu as if the whole thing hau been planneu
in a unifieu kinu of way. But it just hau the emeigent syneigy because so much time hau
been spent up-fiont in the Biscoveiy stage.
Integial City eLab 0ctobei 2S, 2u12 1S
7$<+': Well I think that's a peifect segue Ann into uoing this with all of oui calleis. I woulu
actually like to biing in Eiic.
@*+3? Yes I am heie anu will set it up. |Be uoes so.j|This next section iefeis to a Powei
Point sliue set which is appenueu at the enu of this uialogue.j
:&&: While you aie at youi imaginaiy tables if you coulu think of one thing - anu it uoesn't
have to be a haiu eugeu |thingj - it coulu be something on the human siue - so the woius
on the PoweiPoint aie: "What is alieauy woiking splenuiuly. Think of something alieauy
in place that you aie piouu of in youi city - one that coulu anu shoulu be auopteu much
moie bioauly." So you tell each othei youi stoiy anu soit of coach each othei, oi have
conveisation with each othei. It is veiy impoitant to get the themes out - so what is
impoitant in that stoiy, anu foi you, what values aie auuiesseu by what happeneu in the
stoiy |that ielatesj to youi city.
|Small gioup piocess staits. Then Ann, }oanne anu Baviu ietuin to uialogue.j
:&&: I got to sit in a gioup anu I've got chills iunning uown my spine. They uiu not get a
chance to theme, but it was fine, because some of the themes weie just jumping out at
people. So some of the things that I saw weie the kinus of things that you woulu want to
pull foiwaiu into the Bieam phase - things like collaboiation kept popping up - but
collaboiation amongst gioups that you woulun't noimally think that woulu collaboiate,
anu that spawneu entiiely new activities, incluuing leaining, biinging natuie into
infiastiuctuie anu making it all much moie pleasant in uoing that. Anu then the whole
iuea of public space was ieally stiong in the gioup I was hoveiing with. The whole iuea
that theie neeus to be a place that is beautiful anu wheie things aie happening, that the
aits tiuly uo belong in the things that make us piouu about oui city. Anu I was kinu of
thiilleu to see that theie was an incieuible agiicultuie initiative going on. Too often we
think of the countiy anu the city as being sepaiateu. You know they aie so mutually intei-
uepenuent even though they uon't look anu feel the same. Anu the whole iueas aiounu
those themes. I woulu suspect many of those themes woulu be iesonating within othei
gioups as well.
An example I can give about Calgaiy that I am piouu of is ielateu to the auuictions
appioach they aie taking, wheie they have biought all the oiganizations togethei ielateu
to social seivices anu that soit of thing. They aie ieally thinking about auuictions fiom a
much moie positive social aspect, iathei than pointing at bau people, they aie people who
neeu help anu they aie going to uo amazing things because now they aie all sitting at the
table.
So the next phase woulu be that we woulu shaie the othei stoiies so we woulu have moie
stoiies in the ioom anu have a sense of it. But let's move on with these small gioups that
aie uoing fantastic woik in theii own iooms. We woulu move to saying, okay, veiy quickly,
in five minutes oi less, can you iuentify what aie the things out of youi stoiies that you
woulu want to pull into the futuie. All of the kinus of things that aie happening heie, what
aie the things that you want to make suie as you plan City 2.u, these kinus of things get
incluueu anu show up in the city of the futuie. So can we give them five minutes at that.
@*+3? Yes, we can. |Anu he sets up piocess, then all ietuin to the Nain Room.j
:&&: I heaiu the gioup going beyonu iuentifying the inuiviuual themes to get a ieally
coheient expiession of the gieatei theme - into taking iesponsibility, whatevei youi place
in the community anu moving towaius self-ieliance anu getting in ietuin a sense of
community anu a stiong sense that you'ie builuing something foi the futuie. What uiu you
finu in the gioup }oanne.
56$&&): I thought it was veiy inteiesting anu comfoiting actually. That uespite how
complex the whole community sustainability is, when it boils uown to it, when we get to
the nuts anu bolts we all want the same thing. I ieally appieciateu that in Teiiy's talk
about agiicultuie anu talk about the aits anu cultuie anu the beautiful lanuscaping anu
how that is built along with new infiastiuctuie anu iealizing that, like unity, even as it
ielates to the eveiy uay munuane kinu of things, like ioaus. So I think while it is a veiy
complex issue, it makes it somewhat easiei knowing that we aie all looking foi basically
the same thing. Anu I just founu that ieally comfoiting.
:&&: Yes, anu it nicely ties back into what I call the thiiu way, anu you use the Stephen
Covey teiminology - which is, if you think you have a baiiiei, think uiffeiently. Because I
can just imagine in a municipal conveisation about beautifying the inteichanges anu
beautifying public space, somebouy iaising the tax spectei - all that will cost too much
money. Well, what aie the ways in which the community can be involveu anu get the
benefits, anu it ieally isn't a heavy cost buiuen, anu it pays back. These community
gaiuens, foi example, aie showing up in the most amazing places, like veitical on the walls
of office builuings anu on ioofs anu eveiywheie. Anu theie is all kinus of potential, but
people have to get out of the eitheioi anu black-anu-white positions. We aie all agieeu
we want the same thing, so how uo we get theie. Anu how uo we make it ieally beneficial.
Because again, collaboiation kept coming up, the builuing of connections between people,
being inclusive, the leaining between geneiations anu cultuies - you know those aie veiy
poweiful anu impoitant things to biing into the futuie with us.
7$<+': I veiy much echo both of youi comments to the conveisation veiy well. What I
founu fascinating was that even though eveiyone was fiom uiffeient paits of Noith
Ameiica, the similaiities weie all theie. In going thiough this piocess, the themes weie all
theie - but collaboiation anu othei themes - in going foiwaiu, iegaiuless of wheie people
weie physically locateu, theie weie those common themes being woven thiough the
uialogue.
:&&: Yes anu that's why this is so veiy exciting to be in the miuule of a piocess like that,
because it staits to feel easiei. It staits to feel that you can ieally see the ioau aheau. It
staits to feel less complicateu because you know theie's that ieally impoitant alignment -
}oanne saiu we all want the same thing. Anu when we know that, anu we can see that, we
can all woik togethei bettei towaius getting theie.
7$<+'. Thank you Ann. So to focus on oui take away heie, I think you both have
iefeienceu uiffeient pieces of woik - like Stephen Covey anu the thiiu alteinative,
Appieciative Inquiiy anu unueistanuing the piocesses theie anu being focuseu on the
positive as you aie going thiough. Anu I love the statement of "motivate to acceleiate
change" in that. Connecting to youi woik, }oanne, I see the theme of all of this togethei,
that the appioach you have taken has in fact uone that. You have been motivating
inuiviuuals to acceleiate that change thiough theii leaining; then thiough theii
expeiiences, they become passionate. Then theie's a kinu of closing the loop, wheie theie
is a way of iepoiting back, anu people see the uiffeience they aie making anu that fuithei
inspiies them. Anu I heaiu that same theme in youi stoiy, Ann, of a gioup who came back
to you anu saiu you know this is incieuible stuff anu we've uone eveiything anu now we
want to uo some moie. What a wonueiful positive way to look at this, iathei than looking
at baiiieis look at what the positives aie anu builu on that.
I ieally wanteu to thank both of you foi attenuing anu shaiing youi thoughts with us. Anu I
will leave it with you if you have any final thoughts on the uialogue touay.
56$&&): 0h boy! I'm just thiilleu at having been inviteu to be pait of this, because I ieally
think the uiscussions aie positive anu it is such a iush to know that you aie speaking with
someone fiom neai New Yoik - I mean how exciting is that. Anu that peison is ieally
thinking the same way that I am about what a sustainable community looks like. Anu you
know we aie all noticing the same things anu woiking towaius the same things anu I think
the whole notion of tipping point is ieally ciitical heie. So if we all uo oui thing - a lot of
people complain maybe what they uo as a single peison is not going to uo much, but the
fact is if we all uo oui single things those auu up to the point wheie at the tipping point
eveiyone staits to see the benefit of that anu things stait to tuin aiounu. Anu I'm ieally
looking foiwaiu to the uay when that happens on a global scale because I believe it will.
:&&: Yes to what }oanne saiu absolutely. I woulu also like to point out that the whole
philosophy anu piactice of Appieciative Inquiiy woiks at eveiy level of scale. It's about
changing the way we ask the questions, about changing the conveisation. It's about
shaiing the stoiies, inueeu, but it's also little moments about asking youi kius what went
iight touay, asking aiounu the table of the pioject - so not focusing on what's wiong - say
what aie we uoing well anu what's woiking. Anu by changing the focus of the
conveisation at the inuiviuual level, at the team level, the inteipeisonal level, it changes
youi self-talk to go back to the inuiviuual level. We beat ouiselves up too much. When we
uo beat ouiselves up, anu we only think about the things we aien't uoing - foi oui failings -
then we iemove oui belief in the possibility of what we can uo. So without getting into
biagging, a little bit of kinuness about what is going well, what aie you uoing well, what
kinunesses - how aie you helping otheis - makes a huge uiffeience to what you can uo
next. You know, it's a little bit like a veiy happy viius. I have stuuents out theie who aie
changing the conveisations within theii oiganizations, anu they aie iepoiting back befoie
the couises aie even ovei that alieauy theie is almost tiansfoimational change within
theii oiganizations, because the iole moueling is a veiy veiy poweiful thing. Anu in
auuition to that, when people ask anu they tell them what they aie uoing, it's changing the
woilu alieauy by changing that shift.
If I may take one moie minute, I have a stuuent in the noith - in Yellowknife - wheie theie
is a ieal pioblem with tianspoitation anu foou. Amy has involveu the whole community in
consiueiing how to giow foou again in the noith. Anu I am convinceu that they will stait
giowing foou, anu it will happen veiy quickly, because she involveu the whole community.
So insteau of looking at the baiiieis, just look at what Amy is uoing. Anu that is veiy
exciting to see those kinus of things in motion. I am a believei.
56$&&): Can I just shaie one moie thing. Thiough woiking with this young man who is
woiking with the SIFE oiganization, wheie he is woiking with othei business stuuents, to
woik with giaue S stuuents to help them leain about foou, anu how they can take what
they leain about foou anu actually use that in cieating ait woik that they can then sell to
theii paients anu theii ielatives anu theii neighbois anu whatevei. Then they use the
income fiom that to help with social investing in a Thiiu Woilu countiy. So foi example
this one giaue S class iaiseu $1Su selling theii aitwoik that they cieateu while they
leaineu about agiicultuie anu foou - anu what they ueciueu to uo with that is suppoit a
single mothei in an Afiican countiy who has foui chiluien, anu helpeu hei buy some
equipment, so that now she has a small enteipiise of hei own that she is now suppoiting
hei family anu actually contiibuting to the whole community anu teaching hei chiluien
about entiepieneuiialism. Anu to me that is just astounuing that within a geneiation
we've gone fiom the olu paiauigm of economics to this new appioach wheie the whole
tiiple bottom line is actually staiting to come into play. anu I finu that ieally, ieally
exciting.
@*+3: Ann - tell us about the Powei Point sliue ueck you have on the website (anu incluueu
below).
:&&: Well listeneis can go back anu they can go foiwaiu |in the sliue ueckj. People aie
welcome to contact me by email anu I'u be happy to have in-uepth conveisations.
(apeioueaugmail.com). I woulu like to point out a set of sliues in theie that have
ambiguous figuies in them. They aie in theie because people aie so ceitain that they know
the tiuth, anu they know what is possible anu impossible, anu "that" will nevei happen. So
these ambiguous figuies help us to see that theie is always something else to see that is
possible - anu when you aie focusing so haiu on what you think you see, you miss the
othei things |that aie possiblej. Anu that's one of the poweis of Appieciative Inquiiy - we
can biing othei people's visions in so we can all leain anu we all bioauen oui expeiience.
Anu if you weie to go on anu finish this piocess |that we staiteu in the small gioupsj, you
woulu go on to pull out those things that you felt foi ceitain that belongeu in the futuie of
City 2.u. Anu then move to that iueal stage - we woulu consiuei both the whole anu the
paits moie holistically, anu we'u ask, "What woulu that iueal state be. What woulu be in
theie. Not only the best things that you've talkeu about - but what else. Wheie is the 'anu'
in this. The gieatei thing that exists that makes this city woik anu be sustainable."
Theie aie also some beautiful woius that woulu infoim Besign. In live gioups I use 0pen
Space so that people can be infoimeu by the iueas that bubble up. Fiom the TEB talk |on
www.integialcitycollective.com) we have alieauy iuentifieu anuoi matcheu many of the
themes they came up with just in oui small gioup AI woik touay.
Then Belivei is - you just go out anu uo it. Anu go back into the cycle, of shaiing youi
stoiies of successes, anu theme them, anu it keeps iejuvenating itself. It is almost phoenix-
like.
@*+3: Thank you - this space has come alive with what we aie uoing togethei touay.
Thanks to Ann anu }oanne anu Baviu foi guiuing us thiough oui uialogue.
7$<+': I am continuing to ienew my eneigy anu think about all the boaius I sit on anu I
am wonueiing about the appioaches we aie taking. What woulu change if we took an AI
appioach. Thank you both.


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What are the problems?
Appreciative Inquiry
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Define the problem

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Focus on negative
Discover what works &
solutions that already exist

Repeat and build on what
is working or valued

Focus on the effective
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trash, ignore or discount the
past and present

assume a new, better future

impose defined process

decisions often predetermined

AI as a change process:
discover the best of the
past.as found in stories of
pride

build the future from positives

defined but organic process

decisions evolve from slow,
participatory process


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frequently consultant-driven

hierarchical and exclusive

reluctant participants are
labeled 'resistant to change'

AI as a change process:
consultants facilitate only

inclusive and consensual

all participants are valued,
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restricted to only what is
valued or working.
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What and where are we implementing Meshworking Intelligence
Speaker: Dr. Don Beck
September 19, 2012

Dr. Don Beck is the co-author of The Crucible: Forging South Africas
Future and Spiral Dynamics: Mastering Values, Leadership and Change.
Don Beck gave up an outstanding academic career to work globally in the
area of large scale systems change. Don has worked with large banks, five
different US airlines, major global energy companies, heavy industry,
hospitals and health care institutions, law enforcement agencies, city
governments and many other public institutions. Don moves freely
between cutting-edge academic and scientific theories of value formation and change but
is also able to design practical applications in the real world. Don has been featured in a
number of media, including EnlightenNext Magazine. He has spoken in the UN and a
number of global conferences. In the last year he has received recognition from three
significant authors addressing evolution and culture: Lynne McTaggart in The Bond,
Carter Phipps in Evolutionaries, and James ODea in Cultivating Peace.

Marilyn Hamilton: It is genuinely my pleasure to introduce this session with Dr. Don
Beck. Id first like to frame it within the overall theme of the conference. This week were
looking at Designing Logic Processors: Connecting all the Dots. This is following two
weeks where we looked at Planet of Cities: Mother Earth as the Motherboard, and Gaias
Reflective Organ: Integral Intel Inside. Were trying to put together a new operating
system for the city, and I cant think of a better person who could help us actually
understand what it is we need to do. Our theme today is the Intelligence of Meshworking.
In my book, I define Meshworking Intelligence as that which attracts the best of two
operating systems. One that self-organizes, and the other that replicates hierarchical
structures, to create and align complex responsive structures and systems that flex and
flow. In Dons presentation today, Im particularly interested that hes opening the second
half of the conference, because it helps us amplify the shift from seeing the city as a whole
living system on a planet of cities, with integral intelligence inside, to aligning strategies
that allow us to prosper.
I would like to give our audience some insight into Dr. Don Becks background. Dr. Don
Beck is the co-author of The Crucible: Forging South Africas Future, and also Spiral
Dynamics: Mastering Values, Leadership and Change. Don gave up an outstanding academic
career to work globally in the area of large-scale systems change. Hes worked with large
banks, five different U.S. airlines, major global energy companies, heavy industry, hospitals
and health care institutions, law enforcement agencies, city governments, and many other
public institutions. Don moves freely between cutting-edge academic and scientific
theories of value formation and change, and is also able to design practical applications in
the real world. Don sometimes calls himself a heat-seeking missile. He has been featured
in a number of media, including EnlightenNext magazine, and has spoken at the U.N. and a
number of global conferences. In the last year, hes received recognition from three
significant authors addressing evolution and culture: Lynne McTaggart in The Bond,
Carter Phipps in Evolutionaries, and James ODea in Cultivating Peace.
I first met Don in 2000 and started studying with him then. On the day of 9/11/2001, I
called him and said, you have to come to Canada, because I think Canada has a special
role to play in the world, and I need you to come and infect our culture with your Spiral
wizardry. Thank goodness Don agreed to come, and subsequently we spent the next five
anniversaries of 9/11 together, looking at that major dissonance to our Planet of Cities,
and trying to inquire into how his wizardry, insights and brilliance in looking at the Spiral
of our worlds values could help us understand what are the next natural steps. So Don,
Im so glad that the next natural step this morning brought you into this conference.
Welcome to the Integral City 2.0 online conference.
Don Beck: Thank you Marilyn. Of course, Im honored to be with you, because Canada,
Vancouver area, and often Calgary and places like that, played a special role in how weve
emerged this conceptual system through the last decade and more. Its great to be with
you, and I promise to be bold, because I believe the safest place in any crisis is always the
hard truths, and at this junction in human history, particularly in this country, with the
rather acrimonious [presidential] campaign were having, as well as the explosions in the
Middle East, are constantly framing issues. The fact that the U.S. and Canada are connected
in a wonderful way; that we stand tall together. So even though Im not officially a
Canadian, I love your national anthem; I think its the best one in the world.
Marilyn: Thank you Don. When you come to Canada, you become an honorary Canuck in
many different ways. Thank you for seeing the possibilities and also for calling out what is
it that were actually being asked to contribute to the world, which I believe is something
that not only applies to countries, but to cities. Each city has a particular role to play in our
evolution in the world.
Today I wanted to ask you to tell us about meshworking. You and I had a Prologue
Interview which is posted on our website, and you gave us a little background to how you
developed your frameworks. Id like you to start today by telling us what is meshworking,
and what led you to think about it?
Don: I was in a group with Howard Bloom, whos one of our famous friends, and one of the
people who suggested the whole beehive metaphor. In that conversation, he dropped
the word meshworks. I said, Howard, whats that? He said, Its a term Im beginning to
see in the sciences around how the brain organizes itself. I said, Hmm Howard, I think
you just coined the word that we need. So thats how it happened with me. I began to
track it down, whos written about it, and so forth. Then I tried to begin to explain it. The
first version I did of it was in Boulder on Red Hill at one of Ken Wilbers Integral Institute
meetings, which I attended all of them back in 1999 and 2000. I started to write out what
the components are for a meshwork. From that experience and that stimulation came the
idea of a meshwork solution. Some people use the term without understanding its
uniqueness, so what I hope to do here is map out what we really mean by it. If that
meaning can be conveyed, I think one can see its immense power, particularly now. We
are a very diverse system; theres fragmentation everywhere, at a time when were more
interconnected than ever. Thats the paradox. How do we put together this global Rubiks
cube, both in terms of the global issues as well as local application? Thats really the topic.
I define meshworks as connecting what matters to design what works. I hope to
explain what I mean by all that.
Marilyn: Connecting what matters to design what works. Thats elegantly simple and
how have you gone about unpacking that? Connecting what matters to design what works.
Lead us on.
Don: Theres so much talk around collaboration. For some reason, the word we is
magic; like it came out of Walt Disneys Magic Kingdom, or something. Everyone now is
talking about collaboration, coming together, world-centric, attacking the ego the me,
embracing the collective wisdom of the we with the idea that theres something in the
we thats magic. How can we then, shall we say, come together, in local bioregions,
national, global, wherever, in order to find new solutions? While I applaud that move;
theres a lot of virtue in it; Im fearful of a group-think, causing a lot of people to drink
the Purple Kool-Aid, as though theres some kind of magic when a group of people gather
around the same table and share feelings and points of view, as if from that will come the
magic genie because they all rubbed the lamp together, and now what weve got is the
ultimate creativity that will save the world.
Theres some truth to that, if there are people in the group who are informed, who have
some knowledge and experience. Because a single person buried in the pressure of the
group may have the real solution. But because he or she may not be particularly welcomed
by the group, or may not be very outspoken, he or she stays quiet while the group goes on
with its collective ignorance. Im trying to be soft on that point, because I favor group
processes, for sure. But Marilyn, what Ive learned over the years is, until we identify what
needs to be done, then its almost immaterial who we invite to a session. Until we have
some kind of sense of what the dynamics are on the field itself, what I call the landing
lights. Until we have integral design engineers who can figure out what kind of thinking
is necessary in the flow states that you mentioned practically that have the codes in
them, that have the intelligence and knowledge in them, that have the practical solutions
to the real-world problems in them, then I dont care how many meetings we have in
elegant ballrooms, or in Starbucks, or wherever we happen to gather.
Im trying to make a case for first looking at the problems that have to be solved, and what
their particular memetic contours are. What kind of thinking is necessary and what kind of
flow states? We now have a new bar code technology that our colleague Kevin Kells put
together for us, that allows for a person or group to first, before they begin anything else,
to spend time on the templates; to actually lay down the pathway with the practical kind
of thinking that has the unique solutions to that situation. This is no car-wash; this is
tailored specifically to unique situations.
Then we ask the question, What kind of thinking is necessary to manage that? What we
all do is rush in where angels fear to tread, coming in with our biases, our agendas,
sometimes our profit motives, our arrogance, playing games with each other, counting
heads to make sure we have the right quota of this colour, this gender, this ethnicity.
Because thats characteristic of a dominant value system that we have all experienced
around the sixth [Green] code, which is the egalitarian, humanistic, redistribution system.
And we think that if we have the right formula, based on the sixth-level code, weve done
our duty. Well, I dont want to leave anybody out, for sure.
But, if forced to choose between a quota of skin colour, and the capacity in the
intelligences to quickly solve a problem, I lean toward the solution to the problem. Then I
go back and work on the tributaries that open up to different ethnic groups. So while I
certainly want diversity represented, I do so when that diversity uniquely contributes to
the solutions. And in many cases, it does. Like when we have a large number, within the
flow of the work, that are African-American, and they have a unique contribution to make,
then of course they need to be represented. But if that is not the case, and my choice is to
look at the group through a politically-correct lens, to be sure that we have the right
equation of people, without that making a difference, then I tend to be sure that weve
captured in the group, or in the thinking processes, those unique intelligences that can fix
things. Thats why I believe in connecting what matters to design what works. Rather than
to what reflects a quota of this, that or the other, to be sure everybody is around the table
and is heard. I know thats threading the needle pretty carefully, but in todays crisis-filled
environment, then I lean toward competencies, as did my late friend Clare W. Graves, to
find those minds or experiences who uniquely qualify people to add worth to the
understanding of what needs to be done. Thats really what a meshwork does.
Because the meshing, as you know from brain studies, is how the human neurology
combines its neural networks, glial cells, processing systems, neurochemistry, and all that,
to form a gestalt. So if were working in heavy tribal environments, where oxytocin plays
a major role in the brain in bonding, then we pay attention to that, because that is a
neurological feature that influences the capacity in our psychological/sociological frame,
to produce the kind of bonding and affiliation. Like when a mother nurses her newborn
baby. Thats why her oxytocin is high; because that chemistry is necessary for mother to
bond to child. Thats the point Im trying to make. So if we can hold back, and spend the
first part of our deliberation in asking these kinds of questions: What needs to be done?
What kinds of people can do that naturally, and in an informative fashion? How can they
be identified? What kinds of decision making processes enable those people those people
to solve those problems? Thats why Im such a strong advocate and this is one of the
key features of meshworking in this functional analysis process that comes out of
value engineering and value management versus negotiation, or consensus-finding. We
identify functions. Thats what a meshwork is.
Marilyn: Could you please remind us what the core codes are that deliver the
competencies and mindsets and capacities youre talking about?
Don: Let me give a practical example of work Ive done in Dallas, TX for two airlines. The
first was American Airlines. Its now gone through a crisis and bankruptcy. But in its
heyday, it was a first-world, Orange airline (Bob Crandall, former chairman told me that).
They werent going to a low-cost airline. They appeal to the status features, they have nice
Admirals Clubs, and were the first to do the Advantage Awards to entice and hold people
into travelling on American, because they get free tickets. Heavy Orange airline; flight
attendants were proper, and when we started, they were all female. Dressed up nicely,
serving nice food on china and silverware appealing to the typical Dallas traveller,
though it was in New York when I first started working with them. That is a high-status,
success-driven, appeal to monied interests, primarily. When you begin to identify the
memetic codes there, you dont have to see very far beyond the Orange fifth-level system,
supported by very good traditional Blue (fourth-level) systems.
At the same time I was working with Southwest Airlines. Now thats a horse of a different
colour. When we started working, the flight attendants wore hot pants. Oh my because
the typical Dallas young business traveller would want to sit back in the lounge and the
flight attendants would call them lounge lizards. Herb Kelleher and Howard Putnam
were my two bosses, and we were selecting cheerleaders for flight attendants. Because we
wanted these flight attendants to serve with elegance, but they wanted them to entertain.
So a bit brassy, a bit flirtatious; Southwest only served peanuts; Ten minute turn-arounds
[at airports]; Appealing primarily to the southwest.
My point is, I had to change my understanding of the codes in both when I went from one
to the other. I couldnt use the same stuff, is my point. Thats why what we have to do is
identify the uniqueness of the actors, agents and functions, within the particular
organizing system and marketing system as well. After we identify that, then that told us
how to train who to use as trainers, how to present it in what form, and all those things;
which all developed out of that understanding.
The same thing happened with Whole Foods Market and John Mackey. When John started,
he and his girlfriend lived above the store. He was studying philosophy at the University of
Texas, and got into organic foods. He told me he started asking, Who will buy organic
food? That will determine who we hire to sell organic food. That will determine the kind
of architectural structure that we build to sell organic food. It all stemmed from that basic
question: Who are the people who are going to buy these things? How are they different
from those who go to other markets and grocery stores? What makes them unique? That
will shape how we pick someone in the produce department; who knows a lot about it. I
recall when we first put in the fish department, and they had to have very informed sales
people who knew about fish. John didnt care whether they had a beard or not. What he
cared about was their understanding of fish, and their ability to talk about fish, protein
and all.
The point is, the whole design of the organization would flow from its most basic function,
which would display the codes of doing business with those people, in those places, in
those cites. Thats what I mean by the unique codes within the context. So rather than a
standard operating manual, or having learned how to manage because youve gone to
Harvard or somewhere, its totally not relevant. Its that kind of thinking that I saw, and
was able to do at American and Southwest. Howard Putnam still talks about it. Certainly
my friend John Mackey at Whole Foods Market has a very unique design, not like any
other store. Thats why there are new organizing principles starting to pop up, not driven
by theory or by the history of management anywhere, but practical functionality, natural
design principles. In all three of these cases, we were using Spiral Dynamics as the
primary Master Code. That would guide us to make those decisions. And as things changed,
as flight attendants got a bit heavier, and wearing hot pants wasnt particularly attractive,
then all of a sudden the union started making waves, and I had to convince Putnam to
change the dress code, because the flight attendants didnt look quite as nice as they once
did. He did, obviously, and today there are multi-millionaire flight attendants flying for
Southwest.
Marilyn: What I hear you talking about in some very vivid examples is that the codes in
people which evolve through their own natural life system meeting the life conditions that
bring those codes out that was what Clare Graves discovered in his research, that there
was a natural developmental trajectory, which you wrote about in great length in the book,
Spiral Dynamics and in actually applying this to real-world situations, youre taking
those same codes and looking at the functions that need to be done. Then youre able to
actually match the functions with the people who have the natural capacities to do those
functions. At the same time, youre actually looking at what is it that the organization
needs? What is its purpose and overall goals, and how do we align that. Am I summarizing
that in a way that takes into account the people, the functions, the purpose and priorities
of the organization?
Don: Yes. And lets be sure that we attach those to the dynamics of the marketplace. Whos
going to buy our stuff?
Marilyn: Right. Thats what you pointed out, particularly in the Southwest and Whole
Foods examples. Can we take it now to the scale of the city? These are the elements that
start to make up the way that you think of a meshwork. When we look at cities today
you and I have had lots of discussions about how theres so many silos and stovepipes and
solitudes; its very fragmented. What you and I can see when we look at the whole system
is that they need to come together and somehow get integrated in their whole way of
being in the city together. Can you talk a bit about how you see meshworking applied at a
city level?
Don: When I first talked to the mayor of Dallas recently, the first thing I did was to hand
them your book, Integral City, and said, read this. On my next visit, I talked more to him
about it. So thats my first way to get their attention. You know how big I am on Vital Signs
Monitors, and it looks like we now have major funding to actually create the kind that Ive
been wanting forever. If its a city, we want to understand and know who lives in the city,
so we scan the city looking for potential hotspots and growing predictably cases of what
could be violence. We play out different ethnic systems on a timeline, to see as they
mature and have more affluence, how is that going to change the way they design their
houses, their playpens, their entertainment centers, their education centers. So were
always doing a futures piece. As you know better than I do, a city is not a static thing; its
a living system, its an organic thing.
When theres pressure because of immigration, for example, as theres been in Dallas, with
a large growing number of Hispanics in the city that are threatening and challenging the
African-American leadership. Its interesting that about 20-30 years ago, white parents
started taking their kids out of the inner-city schools, the Dallas Independent School
District, because they were fearful of the Black intrusion, because of what was seen as
Black lifestyles as that time. So [the whites] would move out to the suburbs. Of course,
Black leaders would jump on them for being racist. Now whats happened is, black affluent
parents are moving their kids out of Dallas Independent School District into the suburbs,
because they dont want their kids mixing with Hispanic kids. You see, its the same
process. And the Hispanic leaders are complaining, just like the Black leaders complained
20-30 years ago. Since we understand thats its not about Black and Hispanic, thats why
we add so much value. We understand it to be about value systems. So by addressing the
value-system issue in mediating potential conflicts, particularly around police
departments, and other things, we can facilitate that natural evolution. As various groups
achieve more affluence, they move to different positions. And the birth rate goes down.
Because; you cant have 10 kids in the back of your Mercedes Benz.
It becomes important, then, that we develop the scanning technologies, but also with the
minds who can read the patterns. Sometimes these are weird ducks. In Spiral Dynamics, I
put them in what I call the duck pond. They dress funny, you dont know where they go
on weekends, and you dont ask them. But they have an uncanny ability to detect these
patterns, even from very sophisticated data mining processes. All those things mean that
cities are really the focus now.
Like Ive mentioned previously, how do you eat an elephant? Its one bite at a time. How
do you change a culture, state or nation? Its one city at a time. I think thats why your
work, and those who are following the whole Integral City movement, are really on to a
major change dynamic. You can see complexities, but it can be handled because they are
narrower geographic spaces, and bit simpler mesh of people and ethnicities, ages, etc. This
kind of thinking opens up all kinds of strategies in a city, particularly in city planning.
Particularly in terms of recruiting new businesses. And, knowing where to put that new
business to match the kind of thinking in that part of the city. To provide for the kids who
graduate there the kinds of jobs they can do.
Just like Elza Maalouf and I recommended in Palestine, that they build a cement factory.
Much to the chagrin of high-tech American firms [who wanted to build a computer chip
factory there]. We explained that if its a cement factory, Palestinians can own it, theres
always going to be a demand for cement, because you have to do a whole bunch of
building. You wouldnt have to go through Israeli checkpoints. It could provide blue-collar
jobs, which is next for Palestine. Not fancy Orange assembly plants. The whole idea was
that the financial sector has to work in harmony with the job creation factor, with the
social development factor, with the community schools factor. All those things have to be
integrated. What our technology, meshwork solutions, does is to provide the tools, maps,
intelligences, and the growing number of case studies around the world, that can
demonstrate how to design these very fascinating new organisms which are beginning to
appear both in urban and rural settings, and in combinations.
Marilyn: Thanks Don. Youve given a vivid summary of one of the reasons I think cities
need to be looked at as a very high leverage node or point in global development and
evolution. They have all the dynamics of what you call memetic diversity, and ethnic
diversity is so alive, because in all of our large cities, we have the whole worlds cultures
living cheek-by-jowl with one another.
I know that one of the images you have me very early on stuck with me, because the
smaller city-states, or nation-states, like Singapore and the Netherlands, are condensing,
like our cities are now. They actually started out earlier on condensing the issues that I
think face world governance. My theory is that new governance will emerge in cities
because it has to emerge there; otherwise they just cant succeed. We can see them falling
apart wherever wars break out. You pointed, a long time ago, to Singapore as an example
of what you call stratified democracy in action. Can you talk about that a bit? I think its a
huge example for the rest of the world to consider.
Don: When they first broke away from Malaysia, on that peninsula, there was great
concern that they couldnt make it. They had no natural resources at all, except for some
fish. But they had a brilliant Chinese engineer manager who said, well, in spite of all that
criticism, Im going to start out building what we would call a Blue system, in line with this
guy named Confucius. So here were brilliant Chinese engineers who were saying, were
next to this big elephant called China, we dont have natural resources, so were going to
have to build a capitalization in people. Were going to have to create a culture, even
though criticized by many by being pretty disciplined and punishment-oriented. I recall
that issue that a young American got his tail whacked because he stole something.
1
Now
what were seeing in Singapore is an amazing capacity. I was able to work with top-level
leaders in helping John Petersen work on a Vital Signs Monitor. Because the SARS virus
almost took them down; theyre so close to China. Today, if you go to Singapore, youll
want to take a look at their Vital Signs Monitor
2
, which is environmental scanning to pick
up on the earliest signs and weak signals of what could be serious to Singapore, because of
its proximity to China. Things like monitoring sick pigs in Central China, even before the
Chinese government knows about it. Sick pigs often mean a new virus, which means
starting early on a vaccination for it. Thats why we always have annually in the fall, the
Asian flu problem. Im over-simplifying, but Im simply saying those very bright Chinese,
pretty authoritarian, fourth-level emerging fifth-level, a steady, solid environment,
because it matches the people and their circumstances. Today the fifth-level, materialistic
system is starting to emerge, and just an edge of Green. But without destroying the Blue
base. Thats where we missed it in this country. Weve destroyed our Blue base, with
progressive-thinking people, and consequently we got the Tea Party as a result. So
Singapores a very stable system.
You mentioned the Dutch; because they live in polders behind the dikes, they also have to
pay attention to those particular dynamics, which greatly shape the nature of the Dutch
culture. Because they depended so heavily on them, and forgot the Dutch Blue, thats why
they had the trouble with Islamic threats. Thats why Peter Merry and I got together and
created a series of Dutch summits on fundamentalism. The third one drew 900 Dutch
leaders.
Always monitoring the values structures, what I call the priority codes, but also paying
attention to the content of the priority codes. We align life conditions; priority codes, that
you know as value systems, memetic patterns; but then we also add beliefs and behaviors
that emanate from those priority codes. This means that major change efforts have to
engage the whole Spiral, as opposed to attacking some of them. To have a steady stable
system, because all these systems potentially exist within people as well as within cultures,
then sophisticated management means that you have to show each, in their value
structure, all they need to do.
Im in this Evolutionary Leaders group that Deepak Chopra put together. Everybodys
worried about the environment, with reports out of Greenland, and all of a sudden theres
great consternation and concern that the timeframe for the existence of humanity is now
set. As I listened to the first appeals, they were all out of the Green system. I lobbied long
and hard to show how you connect those needs to the Purple system, the Red system, the
Blue system, the Orange system, and the Green system. How you speak multiple memetic

1
See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalism_Act_%28Singapore%29
2
See, for example, http://app.hsc.gov.sg/public/www/home.aspx
codes in design of your communication. Because youre working in that third category,
beliefs and behaviors.
The work Im doing with the Memnosyne Foundation here in Dallas is specialized in the
native population, the first peoples as you call them up north. Theyve done wonderful
work, recognizing the codes of the first peoples. Because, the first peoples, who are also
around Vancouver, had to deal often with survival issues. So there are patterns in the first
peoples (our Purple value system) that were going to replicate in our eighth-level system,
our Turquoise tribes. So rather than reject the original people as being primitive, or
whatever term we choose to use there, now what the Memnosyne Foundation have done
is a mining of the intelligences in these so-called native populations, because they had to
cope with many of the same issues that today, in our global tribes, were dealing with.
Thats why Clare Graves found six-on-six-on-six as a pattern in the value systems, with
level seven [Yellow] an octave higher than level one [Beige]. It is back to survival of
humans in the Garden of Eden, when humans first went through that Beige first system,
they did so in the age of plenty. There were low-hanging fruit everywhere. Today, at the
extension of that same pattern of thinking, in the seventh code, were doing so in an age of
scarcity. So were learning from the past, and enriching and updating the processes.
Graves eighth-level code, Turquoise, is very similar to the experiences of historic human
second-level codes. Thus, Turquoise tribes, but with email. Thats why, once again, theres
some move toward collectivism again. Thats what Im trying to say.
What meshworks does is provide that knowledge. So we scan a grouping of people,
whether its a state, city, large culture; it makes no difference. Scanning for their life
conditions, and their current adaptive intelligences to those life conditions. Because what
were looking for is an invisible natural pattern, like Michelangelo. Whose idea to make a
sculpture was not to chip away a stone to make something from top in, but to release the
figure or the image that, in his minds eye, he already saw. So meshworking is to release
the natural structure align it so it fits the kinds of people, the kinds of problems, the
kinds of resources, to build that invisible sculpture, to release it, to trim away the excesses
and the counter-intuitive forces. To be able to design that natural system, just like he
would chisel away to release that natural design in the stone.
My early study with American and Southwest Airlines, I had to release the natural system
in both, even though both were, in one sense, radically different. Both were very
successful airlines out of the Dallas hub, but because they appealed to different kinds of
people, with different equipment and different products, then they had to select different
cadres of employees and manage them differently. Thats what Im really trying to
describe. Thats what a meshwork solution is.
Marilyn: One of the things Im noticing in the stories youre telling is that it seems like
theres a wise leader in Singapore whos been able to grow that culture across time, and
embrace the traditional, modern, post-modern, integral, in all the different ethnic groups
there, and make a very successful city-state. The example you give of the Netherlands is
one in which the current dissonance in the system is still alive, and causing them to look
over their shoulders and try to figure out how to develop the governance there. Ive got a
question relating to connecting what matters to design what works. How do you discern
if people are ready to design what works? Have you seen sculptors, referring to the
Michelangelo image; you call them values engineers, Ive heard the term Spiral wizards.
Can you suggest that there are people emerging now with these capacities around the
world? If so, who are some of the examples?
Don: Okay well, can I start with Noah? [laughter] Its what I call the Noah imperative.
How do you build an ark before it starts raining and the floods come? Which means, at
that stage of the leadership, it required Noah (of course, he would say, God told me) to
provide a different kind of leadership. Over time, when the rains started, and panic started
to appear, it required another style of leading. To manage in todays environment, where
you have large segments of the population just entering in to their evolutionary flow, and
others maturing in that evolutionary flow, then youve got to lead both from the front and
from the back. I just wish our President heard that. Both from the front and from the back.
It also means, and this is from Ichak Adizes, a constant message you need
complementary leaders. Its probably too much to ask a single person to do that today.
Which means, we have to develop leadership teams. Thats why Im advocating, in this
country, a government of national unity between the Republicans and the Democrats, for
a period, to overcome the major crises that we have. Translation: our political system is
corrupt and dysfunctional, and its time to end it! Until we can stabilize. Then, in Howard
Blooms language, what youd call Intergroup Tournaments, which you start up again, as
you move from Diversity Generators to Conformity Enforcers, through Inner Judges.
But when youre in a crisis period, youve got to design the human hive. Because the
models of the human hives that we have cant contain the problems that weve jointly
guilt enough to go around jointly created. Now just where that leadership is going to
come from; I think it come out of a minority, I think it will come out of women, more than
testosterone-driven males. I hope itll come soon. And if the Gravesian formula makes any
sense, its going to take this crisis [to do it].
So were working feverishly right now to design the post-election programs. I wrote my
PhD study on the 1860 election of Abraham Lincoln. Where I had to track the anti- and
pro- forces that moved into extreme positions where the center (Stephen Douglas)
disappeared. Because he was seen by the extreme pro-slavery as an anti-slavery spy.
When he went to the South, he was seen as a pro-abolitionist spy. So poor Stephen
Douglas hit that wind-shear, where the middle disappears, and the energy began to
shift toward the end, radical positions, both of which abstracted their behavior in the
name of God. In the name of some kind of abstraction, for which they are now willing to
die. And when that polarization dynamic is working, its a dangerous time, let me tell you.
Its alive and well in this country, with levels of acrimony and ego-involvement that I
havent seen since since 1860. Thats why some of us are very concerned about it. Weve
warned some of our colleagues in the Integral world, dont take sides! Because, were
going to need you in a synthesis. If you take sides for your own political or financial
reasons, youre doing what an Integral system should not be doing. Other than that, Im not
very opinionated.
Because the word integral means that we have to integrate differences. If we become
partisans for either side that transgresses, in my view and Im just one guy saying this
to the integral world, this is not the time to drink Purple Kool-Aid, or to engage in
cognitive dissonance, because we voted for President Obama in 2008, in spite of
credentials on his part. And many have to justify that vote. Thats what cognitive
dissonance is. Its post-decisional resolution of the conflict. Pre-conflict is pre-decisional.
Its either A or B. And after Ive chosen either A or B, then Im not out of the crisis. I look at
the newspaper for the next couple days or weeks to see if I got a good deal on that used
car I bought. So if were going to be mature, and adult, in the integral world, about this sort
of thing, weve got to watch our own passions, and we have to see, really, why were here.
And were not here to be partisans. Were here to find unique solutions to avoid disastrous
conflicts. Not just in this country, but also the way that we deal in Palestine, in Israel and
certainly Said [Dawlabani] and Elza [Maalouf] have given us a lot of wisdom about that.
Thats why, Marilyn, you and I are here now. In spite of the fact that weve been doing this,
shall we say, a long time? Its clear that maybe theres some wisdom in that, and we might
make sense to some people. Others we will offend. But thats what it is. You and I have had
enough experience, and been down the track enough to where we see things sometimes
not too happily, yet weve attempted to design real solutions. Thats the whole meshwork
process, that factor in the nature of change. What kind of change? What kinds of people? In
leadership, how should who, lead whom, to do what? So we work with a formula, not a
prescription. Not a car wash approach. We connect to natural designs. We do the best
that we can do, then sit back and watch and see. Without ourselves getting too ego-
involved, and taking ourselves too seriously. Because, theres always got to be that
element of joy in what were about. We find people like Marilyn, who are fearless. I think
you must have five or six sets of arms. You must work on a computer all night. Ive never
seen anyone produce so much stuff. This group is privileged to have you at the helm.
Weve got to pay attention to you.
Marilyn: Don, thats very kind of you to say. But as Ive said to you many times, youre the
one whos inspired me very much to step out and take the courage to say things that, when
I first said them, no one got. Certainly no one in the integral world until, really, this year,
has understood the impact that cities can have. They all of a sudden realize that this is a
nexus point. The last time I came to see you in Dallas at the Confab, I was preparing my
slides, driving to the airport, and I heard this interview with the author of Gaias New Face.
James Lovelock said that humans are Gaias reflective organ. I realized that I had to change
my whole set of slides. Because there was the purpose, the plumb-bob, that you like to
remind us of. If were going to create an alignment using this evolutionary, developmental
trajectory, that so many different researchers have come up with, through all the
quadrants of the integral model, through all the levels of complexity. If were going to use
that, then there actually is a place where we can see the human species; its an
evolutionary place. We are in some ways fearful to look ourselves in the face and say, out
of evolution has come Gaias reflective organ. I think were cells in an organ. The organ
itself is the city. You give me courage to continue to challenge us as a species to wake up,
grow up, take responsibility. No longer predict the rain, as you say, but to build the ark. So
I also am really grateful that youre telling us that it isnt necessarily easy to build that ark,
but youve got to start someplace. The place is not avoiding what we know, not avoiding
the hard truths.
I want to say that you also inspired me not to think about the city in a utopian way. Some
people think, oh, Integral City that must be an idealistic city where were going to
levitate off the Earth, and all of a sudden itll be like heaven. Well, it depends on your
definition of heaven.
I dont see an Integral City as a utopia at all. I see it full of the life that you talk about. You
point out the beautiful whole pattern of Spiral Dynamics is fractal. It applies at different
levels of scale. You can look at it through an individual life. You can look at it through the
emergence of organizations. I say you can look at it through the evolution and
development of cities. Were just now, in the human scale of cities, stepping into, perhaps,
our teenage-hood. We have just realized there is so much intelligence in a city. It provides
us with this incredible potential. But like a young teenager, who doesnt know yet how to
manage their capacities, were only just waking up to that in the city. So I just want to
acknowledge the extent to which your research, your own prowling about the world, and
your commitment over the last 40+ years, to actually having the patience for people to
learn this, and then start to apply it. You point to Elza, to Said, to Peter Merry, all in zones
of incredible change and dissonance. So you are, in many ways, our fearless leader. I want
to thank you for that.
If youre ready for it, I can see that there are questions bubbling up from our audience. Id
like to ask Eric to start us off.
Eric Troth: Hi Dr. Beck. Im hearing you talk about the sense of a crisis period, facing some
very challenging times. How do we deal with that? We talk a lot about change. But what
kind of change, from what to what, and with whom, and so forth. Im aware you have a list
of change variations, with reference to that, it seems like its useful for us to think, what
kind of change are we talking about, at this particular time in history, with the life
conditions were facing on this global scale. Were looking at The City 2.0, and that kind of
reference that software reference to a certain operating system, and were upgrading it a
little bit. Within your model, that might be more along the lines of an Alpha Fit that we just
want to tweak things just a little bit. But I also suspect that were talking about change on
a more dramatic scale. Im wondering how that would serve to bring that into our context
today? As we think about designing the new operating system for the city, to really bear in
mind what a monumental set of changes that might actually be implying. Could you please
speak to that a little bit?
Don: Thats a pretty long question. Let me hear some more questions, then Ill come back
to it.
Eric: There are some references to the hard truths, and facing into that. Youve
referenced Purple Kool-Aid, the sense of consensus thinking, and how we go for ethnic
diversity, for instance, but not necessarily memetic diversity.
Don: Let me add in another piece here. First, its not unusual for me not to have questions.
I think I probably close em down or something. Unless Im in an open session and stir up
stuff, I tend not to have a lot of questions. But let me add something thats new. With the
Evolutionary Leaders the other day, they were trying to figure out why populations are
not scared. In spite of what they think to be evidence of doom and gloom on the horizon.
I said, what we need is a scared scale lets talk about a hurricane. How do we segment
hurricanes? We talk about various categories of hurricanes. Category 1-5. What if we
adopted the scare rating with how hurricanes are described. So a Level 1 is a mild
wind and a Level 5 hurricane is serious stuff. That exists in the minds of people these
kinds of categories already. The key is for us to use them.
Years ago when I was doing campaign research here at University of North Texas, I was on
faculty doing research for a number of years. I used the make the point when asked, that
there was no difference in voting against a person because theyre black, than voting for a
person because theyre black. Actually, theres really no difference if we can segment
blacks. Uncle Remus and Aunt Jemima (Purple). Bad Bad Leroy Brown and Superfly (Red).
Booker T. Washington and Martin Luther King Sr. (Blue). Black Caucus (Orange). Stevie
Wonder (Green). Bill Cosby (Yellow). If we had those categories, then we could
differentiate in our minds. Because which one of those is black? Which one is the typical
black? Which one is the characteristic black? Where that black stands for all of blackness.
Its a hard question, isnt it. We can do the same thing with whites. I used to do the same
thing with Afrikaners; show Mandela the split in Afrikaners. I got him engaged in the
Springbok 1995 World Cup, and you saw that story in Invictus. What I was doing was
breaking up the established categories, that in my mind were bringing tyranny. Racism,
sexism, genderism, and all the other isms that declared a commonality in people because
of a single drop of blood. Well, you know how primitive that is. But until we can jump, in
our momentous leap, from that category of describing people and predicting their
behavior, to one based on the natural systems; that is, their memetic codes, we trap
ourselves, and a lot of our behaviors. That makes it very difficult for us to break out of
those categories. Thats what Im really trying to say. Its going to take a long time, because
people in our campaign year want to play the race card. On both sides. They get on my
bad side in a hurry. No matter who it is who plays that race card. Because I saw what it
did in South Africa, I saw what it used to do in South Dallas.
I wrote my PhD study on the North vs. South in 1860, and I saw what it did there with
700,000 probably a million lives lost. You see, the North won the Civil War, but the South
won the Reconstruction. Now Im trying to get my friends in the National Football League
to see that theyre part of a synthesis. Im encouraging them during the football season to
say and do some things to ease the Red states vs. the Blue states, to remind all of us that
we are united. Because the National Football League is very powerful; one of the few
influences that tend to stretch over so many people in this country, and engage major
cities in a kind of competition which they enjoy.
Marilyn: Thank you for that story. In many ways, I think it encompasses the question
around change in a very different way, because youve given us a very vivid example of the
different ways that values are represented within a particular ethnic group. And as youve
given us the parallel examples of how you discovered that in South Africa and it happens
in white populations and Hispanic populations and Canadian populations and first
nations populations. It seems to be a cultural habit that life has gotten into. What I find
your work helps us do is not to use one-size-fits-all. I know youre very involved in
thinking with the American election coming up in November 2012. I hear people calling
for what you might call Green collaboration. And other people saying, well, yes, but what
we really need is more self-organizing, individual involvement. Id like to ask you, do we
need both/and? And how would you fit the old hierarchies, or any hierarchies, into this?
You dont subscribe to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Theres some value for
the hierarchies, especially in cities that are supportive. Can you comment on that?
Don: There are all kinds of so-called Third Way groups forming. Ones called the No
Labels movement, which are rejecting labels, and formed a new label which is no label
(chuckles). Its ironic. And others are trying to push out of the frustration of the left-right,
liberal-conservative, and are looking ahead to whats going to happen in Congress after
the November election. The first of 2013 I saw that in 1861. The first time Congress met
after the end of the Civil War; and the surrender of Robert E. Lee.
Without realizing that when you have two relatively equal forces, both of which are full of
demonization and acrimony, with huge human loss of life, and emotionality, and all that.
And one group is declared the winner. The other group doesnt just go away. Thats why
we had the KKK, and the horrible incidents and the way blacks were treated in the South.
With carpetbaggers coming in from the North. And those attitudes, as you know, still exist
today! Its because the war didnt get at the problems. In my dissertation, I outlined what
they could have done at that stage. I envisioned me, showing my hubris, going back and
talking to Abe Lincoln. Kind sir, Im a visitor from your future. I can warn you about
certain kinds of things. One of my exercises I often do, like I did with some good friends in
South Africa, is, lets go back to the day after Mandela was inaugurated in the Union
Building in Pretoria the day after. Knowing what you know now thats actually happened
in South Africa since 1994. I asked them, What would you have done differently, as a
visitor from your future, knowing what you know now? That always generates a most
interesting conversation. Because after Ive facilitated and really explored that, I say, Uh
oh, thats what you do now.
What Im finding thats lacking, in all these coming together and global sessions and a lot
of these are Green on steroids, who are now meeting to save the Earth. Theyre a dime a
dozen; every day I get an email about this collaborative, and that one the same people
who created the mess, seldom can fix it. Unless theres new thinking. And what I represent
we represent is a way to penetrate through all of that, down to the basic,
fundamental functions that need to be performed. So when I was at Ten Downing Street
with the Blair people, I said that what you have to do is look at your life conditions and
look at the problems, and pick from the Labour party (what we would know here as the
more liberal) certain elements that manage the Orange-to-Green transition. Look for what
we would call the Conservative party; pick the Thatcherism (Oh no! said the Labour
Party) pick the Thatcherism that works from Blue-to-Orange. You see what Im doing?
Im picking from each whats necessary to accomplish movement in what I call the
landing lights. What I cant get them to see is to penetrate down into the landing lights,
into the basic functions that need to be performed. And what thinking and what resources,
and on and on, are required to do that. So I dont care what kind of political system theyve
got, or how they align the parties. To me, its still a bloody waste of time. Until they
develop the integral knowledge about how people change, and what it takes to assist that
change, and that whole body of knowledge that weve carefully, over the years, assembled.
But its off their radar scope.
Marilyn: Don, I think youre giving me a really good opening to answer a question that
someone has asked, that I feel is really important for people to know. That is, if you are
able to teach people, and train them. I know you offer your Spiral Dynamics trainings on a
regular basis, particularly in association with Adizes Institute. You mentioned Ichak
Adizes earlier. You have a training coming up November 3-8 in Santa Barbara, CA. You are
actually one the affiliates with this online conference, so thank you for that support. And
thank you for a wonderful offer youre making to everyone who becomes a member of our
eLaboratory in this conference. Youve offered a major savings off your November training.
With that kind of savings well be posting on the website, what Id like to ask you to do is,
when you do your trainings, can you give us a sample of how you do help people
understand what it is that they need to know, if they want to start to do their work this
way in the world, particularly if they wanted to work this way in their city?
Don: As you know, we employ a lot of what I call livewire, where we telecommunicate
with people. Like for years weve done with Bjarni Jonnson in Iceland. We call them on
Skype. My partner, Ben Levi, is wonderful with technology, and adds his wisdom into it. Of
course, I always tend to have Elza [Maalouf] around, because of what we co-discovered in
sorting out the Israeli-Palestine impasse. Around whats called natural design. This is what
were talking about. Its not negotiation, its not consensus-finding, its none of those. Its a
whole different process of stitching together entities around what we call the Hong Kong
of the Middle East. Around a superordinate goal formation. All of this comes out of my
work with Muzafer Sherif at Oklahoma Institute of Group Relations, with his Robbers
Cave experiment. I recall putting you through that one time, and I think youre still angry
at me because of it. You do remember that, dont you?
Marilyn: I do my Orange got very provoked.
Don: It involves a very complex way to connect differences around common goals. Around
superordinate goal formation and finding assets that are in the interest of everyone, with
the power of the third win. So win-win-win. An elaborate design that we happened onto at
a Summit on the Future of Palestine that we ran in Bethlehem with 700 Palestinian
leaders. We co-discovered it, and arranged to go back when things calm down. Of course, I
teach theory; Im still an academic guy. But at the same time, I embellish and explain the
theory by using these real not case-studies theyre real-life people doing real-life
things, often in harms way. So we try to pick and choose our livewire conversations with
the kinds of experiences that we think are needed, with the kinds of people who come to
the sessions. Were always doing that kind of natural design. Its a six-day training for
Levels 1 and 2. And Santa Barbaras not a bad place to be in November.
Marilyn: Its very beautiful, and Ive joined you there. Its very inspiring. Youre quite right.
You do choose these real-life people and situations. I know that when I invited you to
Canada, and we looked at the 9/11 situation the following year, you said to me, Well,
what if we knew then, one year ago, what we now know. What would we have done
different on September 12, 2001? Weve looked at the health care system across Canada. I
remember being with you in Washington D.C. one year, and we tried creating Integral Vital
Signs Monitors, which youve now taken to a much more sophisticated level. And as you
mentioned, youve wrestled with some of the issues in the Netherlands over the ethnic
clashes of Muslims with more Eurocentric perspectives. And youve also looked at the
Middle East. You are a heat-seeking missile. So this offer to join you to learn comes with
some small print: Only attend if you want to actually meet a heat-seeking missile face-to-
face. But youll never forget it.
Thank you so much Don, for joining us today, and we wish you well as you continue to
move around the world and wake us up, grow us up, and help us take responsibility for
what it is we can be, as Gaias reflective organ.

1
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Speakeis: Beit Pailee, uail Bochachka
Bost: Baviu Fabei
Bate: Septembei 19, 2u12
5)> ?+)( .*)"++ is a licenseu clinical psychologist with psychotheiapy,
coaching anu consultation piactices in Ballas, Texas. A founuing membei
anu foi seveial yeais chief of staff of Ken Wilbei's Integial Institute in
Coloiauo, he has also seiveu as leau tiainei of uozens of piofessional
seminais. A veiy eaily auoptei of integial appioaches, many consiuei Bi.
Beit Pailee to be the "oiiginal integial coach." Beit is a senioi auvisoi,
facilitatoi, meuiatoi anu executive coach with the Stagen Leaueiship Institute in Ballas. Be
teaches at the Nenuoza College of Business NBA piogiam foi Executive Euucation at the
0niveisity of Notie Bame in Inuiana, anu in the NBA anu 0iganizational Psychology
piogiams at uoluen uate 0niveisity in San Fiancisco. Beit has an NA is in contemplative
psychotheiapy fiom Naiopa 0niveisity.
@*#" A-24*24<* has a BSc in Enviionmental Science anu an NA in
Inteiuisciplinaiy Enviionmental Stuuies. She engages in piojects, capacity
builuing, ieseaich, anu wiiting on integial piaxis in sustainable
uevelopment in Biishti anu in close association with Biishti's paitnei
oiganization 0ne Sky. As aujunct faculty at }FK 0niveisity, she taught
giauuate stuuents in the NA Integial Theoiy piogiam, anu leaus an
annual Integial Fielu Couise to the global South. She is involveu with Integial Institute in
vaiious capacities, such as a co-uiiectoi of the Integial Without Boiueis netwoik anu as a
membei of the Integial Life Spiiitual Centei. She has authoieu aiticles in acauemic
jouinals, such as Ecological Applications, Woilu Futuies }ouinal, anu the }ouinal of
Integial Theoiy anu Piactice, anu has wiitten a book, !"#"$%&'() +,-./'(/0'$'.12 !"#"$%&'()
.3" +"$45 6( 7(.")8/$ 6&&8%/93 .% 7(."8(/.'%(/$ /(: ;%<<,('.1 !"#"$%&<"(.. She is fluent in
English anu Spanish. Bei woik with these oiganizations anu engagement in acauemia
ieflects hei gift of biinging complex theoiy into compassionate action.
5*B#7 C*D+)E Thank you veiy much foi the time touay in uelving fuithei into
Neshwoiking Intelligence. Let's ieview the thiee iules of applying Neshwoiking
Intelligence foi oui listeneis. The fiist one is 9/./$1='() 48/9./$ 9%(("9.'%(- >'.3'( .3"
3,</( 3'#" - so that connection between all of us. The seconu is 0,'$:'() 9%<<,('9/.'%(
08':)"- /98%-- -'$%-2 -.%#"&'&"- /(: -%$'.,:"- - so again, communication in anu amongst all
oiganizations anu inuiviuuals. The thiiu is "(/0$'() <"-3"- /(: 3'"8/893'"- .3/. .8/(-4%8<2
.8/(-9"(:2 /(: .8/(-<,." 9/&/9'.'"- - so the ability to integiate anu move foiwaiu as Bi.
Naiilyn Bamilton says, tiansfoimation anu moving foiwaiu.
uail has actually has pioviueu us with a piesentation. uail, uo you minu leauing us thiough
what you have touay.
@*#" A-24*24<*E Suie, I'u be happy to. So thank you so much foi the intiouuction, Baviu.
When Naiilyn inviteu me to come to this eLab, I took some time to think about wheie anu
how am I actually contiibuting to this uesigning meshwoik foi sustainability. The one that
I settleu on that I want to shaie with all of you touay was some woik we've being uoing in
Nigeiia, which is West Afiica.
This context we've been woiking in is quite paiticulai. It's not as usual as you'u finu, say,
in Canaua oi the States. Bowevei, it's obviously a ieally goou example of the kinus of
meshwoiking uesigns that we'ie going to neeu in the coming uecaues.
So I thought I woulu go into this anu take some time to go thiough these sliues. I'll
uesciibe each sliue as best as I can foi those of you who uon't have the actual photo in
fiont of you to look at.

'"#7+ F
To stait the stoiy, oh gosh about twelve yeais ago now, if not thiiteen yeais ago, the
oiganization, 0ne Sky, a Canauian non-piofit oiganization, staiteu woiking in Nigeiia,
piimaiily in the southeast coinei of the countiy in a city calleu Calabai.
At the time, they weie woiking on enviionmental capacity builuing anu they meshwoikeu
five uiffeient othei Nigeiian Nu0 oiganizations in soit of a collaboiative coalition to
auuiess some of the enviionmental issues of that iegion. Anu what they staiteu to iealize
thiough that foui yeai pioject is that all of the leaueis in those five oiganizations, like the
ieally stellai leaueis that soit of shone - theie's about six to eight of those inuiviuuals -
anu they hau all been in the same class in univeisity with the same instiuctoi that hau
inspiieu them to such an extent that they went on to cieate what then became almost like
the enviionmental movement foi this entiie iegion of Nigeiia.
So aftei that fiist pioject, the one that I uiu, when that came to a completion, the team sat
back anu thought to themselves, what woulu be the next eviuent pioject foi this iegion.
Anu with those six to eight Nigeiian leaueis, they staiteu to ask themselves, who is the
next ciop of people coming up. Who aie the next set of leaueis that aie going to take this
foiwaiu.
So fiom theie, we built anu we uesigneu this integial leaueiship uevelopment piogiam
that woulu seek to make some of these connections anu cieate some emeigent conuitions
foi a new cohoit of leaueis to come up anu take on the issues of sustainability anu
enviionmental conceins.
So that is a bit of an intiouuction. That's exactly what we enueu up uoing. We uesigneu the
piogiams foi thiity inuiviuuals. Those thiity came fiom a whole aiiay of uiffeient
oiganizations, all in what I woulu call the civil society sectoi oi the voluntaiy sectoi. They
weien't coming fiom the piivate sectoi, they weien't coming fiom goveinment. They weie
coming fiom an aiiay of uiffeient non-piofit oiganizations. 0nes that woikeu on social
issues like genuei equality oi uomestic violence. 0theis that woikeu on BIv AIBS anu
youth empoweiment. 0theis that woikeu on moie specific ecological issues like climate
change oi uefoiestation oi piimate conseivation in the foiests theie. So it was quite a
bioau set of themes anu issues that these inuiviuuals weie woiking on, but all of them
came fiom oiganizations that weie pait of this civil society sectoi.

'"#7+ G
In Sliue 2, I have a pictuie actually of not all of them, but some of the leaueis that weie in
oui piogiam. Anu then just above that pictuie, theie's a small giaph. At the beginning of
yeai two, we hau them go thiough what's calleu a sentence completion test which is a
leaueiship uevelopment piofile that was uesigneu in Baivaiu foi assessing wheie an
inuiviuual's "action logic" is as a leauei. Anu it ielates to the complexity of minu that that
inuiviuual opeiates fiom. What we founu was that this gioup of leaueis weie, if you look
at the pie chait, the vast majoiity of the pie chait came in at "eaily tiansitioning to
achievei," "eaily achievei," "achievei" anu "late achievei" action logic. Foi those of you
who aien't familiai with the sentence completion test.that is actually almost the exact
thing you woulu finu if you assesseu any gioup of leaueis fiom any oiganization oi
business in the States. That's a faiily common thing you'u finu in the 0S oi Canaua.
Bowevei, what was fascinating to us was, these inuiviuuals weie holuing that action logic
in a context that was veiy, veiy uiffeient.

'"#7+ H
The context in Nigeiia is. put it this way, these inuiviuuals ieally weie leaueis. They
ieally weie the leauing euge of theii society. I just took this pictuie on the siue of the ioau
one uay. We weie uiiving on some of the ioaus in Nigeiia anu the ioaus.even though the
countiy has a lot of oil money coming in.the goveinment hasn't ieally allocateu that foi
some of the state seivices, like we see in othei moie uevelopeu countiies.
So the ioaus aie veiy teiiible. Bowevei, people aie uiiving as fast as they woulu on a five
lane highway. So often you see these cai acciuents, anu in this pictuie heie, it's just an
example uepicting one of the keiosene tiucks fallen ovei, anu eveiybouy is iushing
foiwaiu to giab anu take the keiosene foi theii homes. It's just an example of the geneial
population in Nigeiia not coming fiom the same place as these inuiviuuals weie coming
fiom that we woikeu with.


'"#7+ I
Let's go to the Sth sliue.

'"#7+ J
Baving to negotiate two kinus of things. They weie negotiating theii tiauitional ioots,
which aie moie animistic, moie of a "magic" woiluview. In this Sth sliue heie, I have two
pictuies of some of these animistic tiauitions of this iegion. These aie just masks with
uiffeient soits of giass.giass heau uiess.anu these aie some of the animistic tiauitions
that aie still piesent in Nigeiia.

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'"#7+ K
At the same time, in the 6th sliue, theie's thiee uiffeient pictuies of uiffeient
iepiesentations of how the ieligious woiluview, the "mythic" woiluview, has a veiy stiong
influence thioughout all of Nigeiia, both in the Noith anu the South. The south is piimaiily
Chiistian anu the noith is piimaiily Nuslim. Anu so these inuiviuuals we woikeu with aie
basically .

'"#7+ L
.woiking with a population of 167 million inuiviuuals that come fiom these veiy uiffeient
woiluviews than the leaueis themselves have. Right. Anu aie neeuing to actually finu
some solution skills to leau. So I'm kinu of laying out the pioblem. 0ui challenge was: Bow
aie we going to cieate a leaueiship piogiam that will allow these thiity people to mesh
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anu connect as a cohoit, suppoit one anothei as a gioup of thiity, anu then take theii
leaining out into theii home oiganizations, these thiity oiganizations acioss the state, anu
stait to ieplicate that leaueiship, those leaueiship skills, in theii paiticulai beneficiaiies
that they woik with.

'"#7+ M
So in this next set of sliues heie, I'll just iun thiough some of these examples of how we
staiteu anu uiu this leaueiship piogiam.

'"#7+ N
We built foui leaueiship ietieats a yeai, wheie we focuseu on a lot of uiffeient skill
builuing, both - foi those of you familiai with integial mouel - in the uppei iight - so actual
skills aiounu communication, aiounu meuia engagement, aiounu oiganizational
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management, the soits of haiu skills you neeu to iun a goou oiganization, how you neeu to
be a leauei. In the ninth sliue above, a lot of uiffeient soits of piactices that woulu fall into
the uppei left oi lowei left quauiant. a lot of inuiviuual ieflection, a lot of actual one-on-
one coaching. We biought in some integial coaches to woik with people.

'"#7+ FO
In the tenth sliue, theie's a pictuie heie of a whole iow of the paiticipants cheeiing
someone on. So a lot of this "we" space, like inteipeisonal connections anu suppoit team -
this soit of thing - lots of uiffeient skills. In teims of not just among theii gioups, but in
teims of how they'ie going to woik as an oiganization - in teims of genuei equality anu
conflict iesolution, leaining about uiffeient peispectives, anu how uiffeient peispectives
ielate with theii woik.

'"#7+ FF

'"#7+, FG P FH
I just have two pictuies heie. it was quite an intense conveisation. 0ne of the biggest
challenges these inuiviuuals face is that they'ie at this leauing euge fiom a civil society
sectoi, but they'ie uealing with, as I was saying, the animistic tiauitions, the ieligious
oveitones, anu a goveinment that has histoiically been faiily oveitly coiiupt foi uecaues
now. So how to negotiate those soits of fielus anu those soits of eneigies, was a topic that
kept coming back aiounu anu aiounu. This is just one faiily heateu uiscussion. Anu then
the thiiteenth sliue is just a pictuie of the gioup afteiwaius.

'"#7+ FI
So point being heie is that, in this fouiteenth sliue, we ieally laiu some emeigent giounu
foi these inuiviuuals to step up into the leaueiship ioles that they weie actually holuing,
anu take them even fuithei, lift them even highei. So in the final foui sliues.
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'"#7+, FL P FM
I just want to give you an example of how this kinu of lanueu on the giounu. Bow it
actually manageu to become a meshwoikeu intelligence. The gioup of thiity weie uiviueu
up into small gioups, anu they weie taskeu to come up with a bieakthiough initiative. The
fifteenth sliue.this is one of the gioups. They took on the challenge of how to fostei goou
goveinance anu gieatei human iights, in a context of coiiuption anu lack of human iights.
They took on one of the most challenging of the issues that any of the gioups took on, I feel.
They staiteu to woik just as a gioup of six people, anu uesign theii bieakthiough initiative,
anu then they went out to the neighboihoous (Sliue 16). Beie's a pictuie of them in the
neighboihoous, going anu uoing tiainings, anu uoing capacity builuing, anu explaining to
people, you have a say on how youi goveinment goveins. In fact, the civil society has moie
stiength than anyone ieally iealizes. So they staiteu to uo these neighboihoou capacity
builuing meetings.
Sliue 17 shows just meeting with people fiom the neighboihoou listening to them, anu
give a little piesentation. Anu then that shows people fiom all these little neighboihoou
connections, anu you'll notice heie it's a civil society gioup, kinu of auuiessing the issues
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of goveinment, anu actually inviting people fiom goveinment to be piesent foi these soits
of conveisations anu capacity builuing meetings. So we staiteu to see this cioss-sectoi
connection happening as well.
By the enu of the thiiu yeai (Sliue 18) this bieakthiough initiative, along with the otheis,
they got togethei anu helu a confeience wheie the fiist uay hau 2uu people, anu then it
went into the city of Calabai, anu eventually 4uu people showeu up foi this confeience,
which was aiounu the topic: ?%> 9/( )%%: )%#"8(/(9" 0" %(" %4 .3" >/1- .3/. >" "(/9.
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So it's an example of how, fiom simply one peison, fiom one leauei with a vision, one
leauei that's uoing the haiu woik of holuing an emeigent euge, in the miust of a lot of
uiffeient woiluviews, that, in a sense, pull on that woiluview. Pull uown on that
woiluview, anu the haiu woik of maintaining that, anu maintaining a vision, maintaining
leaueiship. Bow that one peison gets togethei with a few othei people. then get togethei
with a few othei people, again anu again, anu soit of a cascauing effect of gieatei anu
gieatei gioups of people, upwaius of foui hunuieu. Then leave the thiee-uay event with
inspiiation, with new vision, anu go out into theii home communities, home oiganizations,
anu neighboihoous of the city, anu stait to enact the kinu of leaueiship that they want to
see foi theii countiy.
So that's what I want to shaie with you touay. I'm suie I'll ciicle back to some of these
stoiies thioughout the iest of oui time togethei. But it's just an example of the ways that
we weie with oui Nigeiian colleagues, that seeking to catalyze these fiagile connections
acioss this state of Nigeiia anu iueally influencing the iest of the countiy of Nigeiia as well.
The ways that we've been tiying to builu communication biiuges acioss uiffeient thematic
focuses within civil society sectoi, anu how that has staiteu to begin to biiuge sectois
itself, like fiom civil society, into acauemia, into goveinment anu potentially into piivate
business as well.
So maybe I'll stop theie anu just see how that lanus anu how that ielates to what Beit anu
Baviu have to say.
5*B#7E I'll jump in with a follow up question, anu we'll have a fuithei conveisation with
Beit. But you'u mentioneu how it staiteu with one leauei towaius the enu of youi
piesentation anu how it staiteu to catalyze anu giow in size. It was as if the mesh was
living, it was expanuing, it was giowing - that the hive was uoing its thing - it was ieally
connecting with inuiviuuals. Bow uiu that happen. Can you uesciibe that a little bit moie.
Bow uiu those connections - how uiu it go fiom one to foui hunuieu people in such a
shoit time.
@*#"E Yes, so I shoulu say that just that one example I gave you foi the goou goveinance
gioup. that was one inuiviuual up to the foui hunuieu. But that we woikeu with thiity
inuiviuuals. So eveiy one of those inuiviuuals spaikeu anu catalyzeu that type of
exponential inciease. Pait of that was oui uesign. Pait of that we knew - anu peihaps
people that aie listening have hau that expeiience - when you go to a ietieat, you leave
youi home context. You go to ietieat, you get ieally inspiieu, anu then you go back to youi
home context, anu a lot of youi inspiiation can get uiluteu anu kinu of lost; you soit of
sliue back into youi noimal patteins anu habits.
What we uiun't want to have happen was that. So we wanteu to cieate a situation wheie
inuiviuuals who come to these ietieats ovei the thiee yeais, that they woulu gain this
inspiiation, gain new skills anu stait to liteially uevelop as inuiviuuals, but set up a
situation such that they continueu in leaining communities, they continueu in small
gioups woiking on base initiatives, they continueu in this cohoit in a netwoikeu way so
they woulu have that suppoit going foiwaiu. So pait of that was uesign, but what we
uiun't iealize is, anu this is the inteiesting pait of oui pioject I think, what we uiun't
iealize is that having seeueu that uesign initially that it woulu stait to ieplicate itself, anu
in that alive way that you'ie uesciibing.
We hau hopeu that theie might be a netwoik that woulu giow out of this pioject, but we
uiun't ieally plan foi it. Befoie we coulu even mention it, theie aiose what is calleu the
Afiican Integial Bevelopment Netwoik. 0ut of this gioup of thiity, they founueu it, anu it
now incluues many moie, piobably upwaius of fifty people. So it's ieally inteiesting to see
that oui uesign to have these soit of embeuueu social gioups to kinu of facilitate this hive-
like quality to the woik, actually staiteu to take on that veiy expiession. So eveiy one of
those thiity leaueis staiteu to ieplicate anu builu out theii paiticipants that they weie
involve in, anu builu out the ieach that they hau. Boes that make sense. What I'm tiying to
say is that it was pait uesign anu pait emeigence.
5*B#7E That's a gieat connection acioss ovei to youi woik, Beit. I'm wonueiing if you
coulu ieflect on what uail has just piesenteu anu youi thoughts with iegaiu to
meshwoiking.
?+)( .*)"++E I ieally enjoyeu heaiing about that whole situation anu Calabai, anu
paiticulaily how the seeus of geimination of uevelopment will aiise in spiiit anu in
somebouy's minu anu somebouy's vision, anu when that is extenueu anu expanueu into
otheis, how it's just amazing things giow in that way. I was talking to somebouy last night
anu this piinciple of uanuhi anu peaceful non-violent iesistance - a kinu of eniolment of
stakeholueis that he maue. When these kinus of things begin, it's just an iuea in
somebouy's minu.
I love the little fiame he hau. Be saiu, "Fiist they ignoie you, then they laugh at you, then
they fight you, anu then you win." It's an inteiesting uevelopment; so whatevei these folks
hau to go thiough to get to the place of geneiative leaueiship anu piouuctivity anu
cieativity, in that meshwoiking way, is always fascinating. What we think of as integial
kinus of leaineis, the uimensions of being, of the quauiants anu all the iest - a lot of times
aie wheie these ieal woilu iesults get souiceu with gieat iueas. So it was cool to heai
about that.
Anu foi uail, a lot of what you weie uoing was uesign woik with Nu0 folks, anu cieating
leaueiship oppoitunities out of that, in a way that coulu biing people togethei, cieate
alignment anu congiuence, anu finu some coie piinciples that woulu allow people to
become supeioiuinate to theii own, peihaps moie piovincial, ways. }ust on that note, I'm
always smiling when I heai when I'm on a gioup - I'm a Canauian, but of couise I've been
living in the States foi most of my life. I just love the way Canauians say in-TEu-ial, iathei
IN-t-gial. I always give a little shift whenevei I heai that - yeah I'm back home with that.
Foi me, what I woulu uo is maybe tiy to weave this in a bit with what uail was talking
about, in teims of Nigeiia. Knowing she was going to uo that, I thought of the vaiious
things that I've been involveu with. 0ne that has been inteiesting in my life is when I was
stuuying in my uoctoial piogiam in the San Fiancisco Bay aiea.
I hau occasion to uiiect a iesiuential auolescent facility in an aiea acioss the biiuge fiom
San Fiancisco, the sistei city of 0aklanu. East 0aklanu is a pietty wilu anu woolly place,
anu I uiiecteu this agency in a section of town in East 0aklanu calleu the "muiuei coiiiuoi."
Nost of my clients weie auolescents; piobably about 9u peicent of both the clients anu my
staff, as well as the people I inteifaceu within a vaiiety of systems that I'll speak to, weie
Afiican Ameiican. Anu theie was a smatteiing of Bispanic, Asian anu white folks as well.
But foi me, what's inteiesting about that, when I heai uail talking about who the integial
spiiit anu sensibility stiives to suppoit in the woilu in uoing goou woik, a lot of times
integial gets involveu with oui leauing lines of uevelopment at the highei post-
conventional, tianspeisonal ieaches of those things. But so much of the goou woik we
want to uo is soit of with the lagging lines of uevelopment, in a lot of ways. Tiying to offei
suppoit anu seivice anu giving back. Anu in that sense, that ieally veiy much felt like that
was what I was uoing theie. Leaining on the giounu how to woik with a iange of
stakeholueis to uo goou. With tiying to shepheiu, basically, kius who came fiom veiy
abusive, abanuoning enviionments, wheie they weie not able to be caieu foi by whatevei
family systems they came fiom. They hau to come into the Social Seivice system. Anu that
is an amazing system in its own iight. It is populateu by a lot of people who want to uo
well. They uo a lot of goou woik, incieuible self-saciifice anu offeiings back.
As an integial stuuent at the time, I was veiy taken with the incieuible open heaits that -
many of us who aie familiai with the language - that has to uo with sensibility, openness,
multicultuialism, appieciation of uiffeience, pluialism, ielativism.all the things that
uefine that, which pietty much is what iepiesenteu the stakeholueis I was woiking with,
on a lot of my staff. The ones that weie euucateu who weie coming in fiom the outsiue, as
well as a lot of the local people who weie coming fiom a veiy uiffeient place of a moie
tiauitional minuset anu woiluview.
In tiying to suppoit the kius that aie coming thiough the system; coming fiom a place of
abuse, abanuonment, neglect, anu so foith, theie was a stiong impulse to iemeuy anu heal
anu fix those situations, by making suie that caie was given as much as possible to these
kius that come thiough. What that often iepiesenteu was, at times, a suppoit system that
was out of balance in ceitain ways. By that, I mean in the woik that was uone in the
iesiuential facility itself, the uepaitment of social seivices. The kius hau iepiesentatives
who weie technically unuei theii |the iepiesentatives'j caie. These kius weie waius of the
couit, anu theii social woikei basically ueteimineu wheie they woulu live anu what theii
lives woulu look like.
0f couise, theie was theii family of oiigin, an extenueu family, some of them moie
functional than otheis, uepenuing on what systems they came out of. Theie was the school
system that hau a cential iole in theii lives, anu often a juuicial system, not only because of
the civil situations, wheie they may have come fiom uysfunctional family systems, but also
the kius woulu get in tiouble a faii bit, anu they woulu enu up in vaiious kinus ciiminal
couit systems.
So you woulu have a lot of people that weie stiiving to cieate as much health anu
goouness with these kius as possible. Anu theie weie all soits of challenges I uiscoveieu
about that. The iuea, in teims of kinu of meshing the systems togethei heie, I founu myself
in a iole of tiying to soit of cieate - when we think in teims that have come out of Afiica,
like "it takes a village." Anu in the caie systems in the innei cities of Ameiica, theie came
to be what is calleu a 'wiap aiounu' soit of appioach, wheie "let's bunule anu give as many
seivices as we can to the kius who aie stiiving to uo bettei heie." But a lot of the time that
woulu enu up being an ovei-accentuation on. again, just healing, making it bettei anu
letting the kius anu families of oiigin uiive the thing.
So the challenge was to biing in a gestuie of balance towaiu the kinu stiuctuies anu
systems that woulu allow the kius to thiive, because in as much as they enjoyeu being
inuulgeu by the vaiious stakeholueis in the system, it often uiun't uo them veiy much
goou in the ieal woilu, anu a lot of the effoits that we maue weie builuing in uesigns that
woulu incluue things like behavioi mouification systems thioughout these vaiious aieas,
that in the beginning a lot of people that weie playing the vaiious ioles in the couit, in the
social seivice system, the juuicial system, uiun't have much of an appetite foi.
The moie we weie able to tiy to uemonstiate some of the iesults - that if the kius hau
iewaius as well as conuitions foi ceitain kinus of behavioi, that coulu ieally augment the
goou woik that people weie just wanting to natuially give.
So theie was soit of what we woulu call ciossing of bounuaiies in a lot of ways.
Bounuaiies aiounu coues of belief systems anu iueas that soit of oiiginateu fiom, in a lot
ways, what's been calleu a cultuie of 'victimology' within the innei city, wheie they have
absolutely been suffeiing foi so long, in such hoiiible ways, anu theie aie a lot beliefs
associateu with what is uue on that basis. When it isn't coupleu with what we came to call
a 'cultuie of empoweiment,' a lot of iesults weien't foithcoming.
So a lot of the effoits that we maue in the meshwoiks, we attempteu to biing togethei the
majoi stakeholueis who hau uominion ovei these kius' lives. What I woulu uo is tiy to talk
about the ways we woulu complement a feminine compassion, which is all about
unconuitional positive iegaiu, which is so impoitant anu necessaiy foi these kius, that
they be accepteu anu loveu anu iecognizeu in theii beauty foi simply who they aie,
without any expectations. They hau a lot of uisconfiiming, invaliuating expeiiences in
theii life.
So the task was how to actually fuinish that kinu of nutiiment to the kius as much as we
coulu, while at the same time builuing in a soit of shift, a ciossing of the bounuaiies, fiom
an eitheioi sensibility to a bothanu . Wheie we talkeu a lot about the value of what
came to be calleu the 'masculine compassion,' as well as the gestuie of balance. What
ieally helps giow kius in stiuggling societies anu stiuggling systems is something that
they can iuentify as stanuaius of behavioi. A lot of the woik that we enueu up uoing was
helping fiame that kinu of bounuaiy establishment anu limit setting. an iuentification of
wheie it's healthy to say no. that best went uown as fiames of moving fiom a soit of
cultuie of victimology, to one of empoweiment. In paiticulai, how a gestuie of masculine
compassion, wheie theie aie some limits, that the kius know wheie they neeu to biing
things to a close, in teims of theii behavioi with one anothei, anu with the vaiious
systems that they weie inteifacing with.
That became a huge euucational effoit. It enueu up in a vaiiety of tiainings foi vaiious
systems of uiffeient auolescence agencies anu gioup homes. It enueu up involving a lot of
woik with communication skills, with woiking cieatively with conflict. Anu so much of
that involveu peispective-taking of vaiious kinus. 0sually theie was an oiientation to a
singulai peispective aiounu who's iight anu who's wiong, anu a lot of the woik enueu up
involving anu builuing in of how "iight against iight" is often one of the coie coues of
challenge in tiying to move foiwaiu.
The empoweiment issue is one that helpeu people see that theie often neeueu to be what
woulu almost be seen as a betiayal of an eailiei allegiance to the family. A peei gioup, of
couise, was extiemely stiong in theii systems - how to actually shift that allegiance into
one of an iuentification with moving into a new way of being in the woilu, wheie they
weie able to soit of shift anu woik with the systems they weie in, anu the systems coulu
suppoit them by cleaily iuentifying the limits to behavioi that wasn't in theii best
inteiests. So that they weie moie inclineu to uo the things that they weie ieally neeuing to
uo to move foiwaiu.
Piobably the haiuest folks to help with this weie a lot of people who came in fiom the
piogiessive giauuate schools in the Bay Aiea. veiy well intentioneu anu well meaning
folks who woulu often flex back to a soit of holuing the kius as only victims. Anu the ieal
woik was, again, this shift of being able to take a balanceu appioach. So what we uiu is
builu in a vaiiety of tiaining systems that woulu move people to taking a uiffeient
peispective.
5*B#7E Well Beit, I uefinitely can ielate to the stoiy that you just shaieu in the woik that I
uo with the inuigenous communities heie in Eumonton in Albeita anu acioss Canaua.
What I have obseiveu, anu just connecting that uot to youi stoiy, is that theie can be veiy
much well intentioneu people coming in, anu they take a leaueiship iole of, "we can fix
this pioblem foi you," iathei than peihaps one of stanuing besiue the inuiviuual anu
woiking with them. Anu I know theie can be a lot of conflict when that happens.
What I founu acioss both stoiies, both youis uail, anu Beit's, youi expeiiences - all thiee
intelligences of meshwoiking weie applieu. I heaiu the catalyzing of these connections -
biiuging anu cieating these connections, actually builuing the communication acioss
uiffeient gioups, anu then putting in place whatevei enableis aie neeueu foi that to
suivive anu thiive anu continue to giow, iathei than to be shut uown.
0ne of the questions that suifaceu foi me is, in |uesigningj what you weie uoing foi this,
how much of this was actual uesign anu how much just happeneu. We use the woiu
"oiganic"; what uiu you enu up uesigning, anu what just happeneu because you biought
people togethei. Was it a mix of both oi what happeneu theie.
@*#"E That's a ieally inteiesting question. It's a haiu question foi me to answei. I uefinitely
know a lot of intention was biought into the way we uesigneu this piogiam. We hau
biannual calls with an auvisoiy committee that incluueu Ken Wilbei anu about ten othei
thought leaueis in integial theoiy, anu anothei with integial coaching anu uiffeient types
of social change woik.
So we ieally uiu a lot of veiy caieful intention with how we uesigneu this, specifically
aiounu how to suppoit a tiue effective meshwoik; that has inuiviuuals be able to be helu
in a meshwoik that then coulu ieplicate anu become a living hive, to use the language
fiom Naiilyn's book.
Bowevei, I uo think that just the natuie of these paiticulai people, as I saiu - they weie
the leauing euge in theii society, that theie was such a ieceptivity to just take this
emeigent giounu anu use it the best that they coulu, anu kinu of uevelop it, uevelop
themselves, as best as they coulu. Such an openness. These aie inuiviuuals wheie coaching,
foi example, anu any soit of one-on-one woik, is not ieally uone that often in this pait of
Afiica. Paitially because it's just not pait of the cultuie, piobably not affoiuable eithei.
Theie's just fewei theiapy situations that aie available to these people. But they weie so
open to the coaching, anu just got so much |out of itj. It's almost like they took the
expeiience anu wiung it anu wiung it anu wiung it to get eveiy last uiop out. I can't say
wheie this has gone.
So we uo tiy to uesign ,because it's so much uue to how these paiticulai inuiviuuals just
useu it to the best they coulu, anu meshwoikeu it fai beyonu what we thought they weie
going to uo. So othei than to say that, I uon't ieally know how to answei that, Baviu, othei
than to say I believe it's always some soit of a mysteiious anu giaceful mix of uesign anu
meeting the soits of conuitions wheie weie emeigence aiises, iight.
?+)(E I'm noticing almost the opposite situation, even though theie aie a lot of similaiities
in the cultuies that, I'm guessing, aie in these iespective paits of the woilu, like in Nigeiia
anu East 0aklanu. In some ways, what I iealizeu we weie up against a lot was actually a
soit of gianu uesign of oui times that we weie living in.
Evei since the uieat Society emeigeu in the sixties - this amazing iecoveiy of pieviously
maiginalizeu ue-piivilegeu gioups weie now being given a voice anu a naiiative anu a
uiscouise, anu theie was such a iecoveiy anu such a beautiful thing that happeneu as we
expanueu oui unueistanuings of who constitutes "us."
As with many things, the ioau to hell is paveu with some goou intentions, anu I enueu up
being in a system that was so uesigneu with so much help, it was that kinu of
"Koyaanisqatsi" - a sensibility of life out of balance; that eveiything hau been uesigneu so
much to only give, without the counteivailing balance anu piinciple. The opposite viitue
anu value of iesponsibility to go with caie that, foi me, the challenge was ceitainly in
uesigning things. but almost to, I think as I'm speaking about this, it was ieally leaining
how to meet people in those seivice functions, in those vaiious social seivices, even in the
agency itself. In the schools anu juuicial system, to be able to speak to the incieuible value
of caie, but also often in the moment, in all soits of what woulu be laigei case
management meetings, wheie you'u have these vaiious stakeholueis coming togethei foi
the goou of the chilu, anu theie woulu be a lot of painstaking in-action conveisations
aiounu stiiving to shift the uiscouise, the context fiom eitheioi to a bothanu sensibility
in a vaiiety of ways. In paiticulai how to biing a balanceu gestuie of caie.
So foi me, I founu most of it, by fai, being the in-action woik. Because things might sounu
goou in theoiy, anu foi the situation I was in, theie neeueu to be a kinu of ieal-time, ieal-
woilu auuiessing of things as they came up, anu then wonueiing with people: Is it tiue.
Things that woulu be taken as absolutes, axioms, "this what we shoulu uo." Is it ieally. So
it became, foi me anu the people that woikeu with me, it became a Sociatic uialogue with
a lot of othei stakeholueis in ieally wonueiing about the effects that weie coming in. So
we woulu tiy to invite eveiybouy to ieally examine the eviuence of ceitain effoits that
weie being maue. Weie they woiking. Weie they not. Anu how to help shepheiu people
thiough, sometimes, theii absolute auheience to a set of coues of values, beliefs, iueas,
unueistanuings, that may have ultimately not been in seivice of wheie theii heait's uesiie
ieally wanteu them to go. So theie was a ciafting of containeis that weie leaining
ciucibles, anu tiying to uesign in, if anything, a soit of optimal uiscomfoit aiounu leaining
euges foi people, so that they coulu keep one foot in what they helu to be tiue as they
cuiiently unueistoou it. Anu then to builu a biiuge to extenu to anothei possibility, anu to
help them feel that weie not in any way ieally betiaying theii fiist coues anu piinciples, if
they weie able to complement what they weie uoing. Not negate it, but to mouify it, to
shift it. To not violate a bounuaiy, but to cioss a bounuaiy into a new way of thinking anu
being with the kius, anu ultimately with theii own belief systems.
5*B#7E What I'm heaiing you both say is that theie's a neeu foi uesign, but theie's also
something that happens that you'ie able to be piesent in that moment in whatevei is
going on, anu being able to shift as you neeu to. uail, when you weie talking about how
you weien't expecting people to iun with it as fai as they uiu, oi maybe that's the wiong
way foi me to say it. They took it fuithei than anyone hau evei imagineu, anu weie able to
cieate theii connections anu keep builuing on that. The thiiu piinciple of meshwoiking
aiounu enablement of these meshes, in whatevei hieiaichies aie being useu, to continue
to push bounuaiies - weie theie things that you specifically uiu to keep suppoiting them
as they weie ieaching out fuithei within theii own communities.
@*#"E This was pait of oui uesign. We hau these bieakthiough initiatives. We suppoiteu
them by giving seeu funuing foi the fiist yeai anu a half of theii existence. That let these
inuiviuuals take what they weie leaining in the leaueiship ietieats, anu apply it iight
away, with sufficient funus to uo so. I think that was one of the ways that the skills coulu
actually be soliuifieu anu concietizeu into expeiience. Anu then beyonu that, in oui woik,
a pioject always uoes have an enu uate. So oui pioject enueu eailiei this yeai. But what
we've uone is, we have continueu to suppoit the Afiican Integial Bevelopment Netwoik,
which has continueu, it still exists since the enu of the pioject. Anu often with these soits
of piojects, we as a Canauian oiganization, paitnei with a southein oiganization in the
ueveloping woilu to uo a pioject. In this case, we uiu that, but insteau of being the "leau"
on futuie piojects, what we've uone is actually facilitateu the foimation of a 0ne Sky
Nigeiia. So insteau of 0ne Sky Canaua coming anu woiking in Nigeiia, what we've uone is
suppoiteu the founuing of 0ne Sky Nigeiia which is iun completely by Nigeiians. So
thiough 0ne Sky Nigeiia, a lot of the ongoing suppoit foi these meshwoiks can continue.
Because the Canauians can't always tiavel to Nigeiia. So this holus in place a lot of the
woik we aie uoing, anu lets it become owneu anu empoweieu by the veiy people that I
wanteu to woik on the veiy issues that they'ie facing.
5*B#7E Bow about foi youiself, Beit. What hits me in this conveisation is the meshwoiks
that aie theie; something is being establisheu anu is moving aheau. Is theie that neeu to
enable it oi to sustain the meshwoik. Aie theie things that have to be put in place foi a
meshwoik to continue to thiive.
?+)(E Foi me the kinu of bolsteiing that I often fiame moie as empoweiing, which I woulu
guess is a simile foi enabling, anu I think ongoing maintenance is going to seive best to not
allow systems that have pievailing winus anu establisheu stiuctuies anu patteins, to not
flex back into the olu ways. Because when we think of things systemically - eneigies anu
uynamics that want to moiph back into what's familiai, habitual, anu comfoitable in all
soits of ways. Anu things that get ieinfoicement to keep it that way. What I founu was
empoweiing. what went thiough my minu was a few examples of expeiiences I woulu
have in going to the schools, anu this woulu happen foi my staff a lot as well. What woulu
usually happen - you know, we might be calleu uown because one of the kius may have
gotten in tiouble - anu we might be sitting in a waiting ioom with a vaiiety of othei
paients, waiting to meet the vice piincipal, oi whoevei was going to manage whatevei
issue it was. Anu, without exaggeiation, uefinitely ovei 9S peicent of the time, the paients
woulu be waiting to uemonstiate anu expiess theii upset that theii chilu woulu have been
iuentifieu as uoing something wiong. Anu the auministiatois anu teacheis woulu be
waiting to tiy anu explain, anu uefenu that they weien't uoing anything to victimize these
kius. They got to be familiai with us - what we woulu uo, in teims of empoweiment, is
ieally let the people, both in the juuicial systems anu schools anu social seivices, that we
weie theie to suppoit anything that lookeu like valuable limit-setting.
That kinu of empoweiment was like a bieath of fiesh aii to these folks, anu we woulu have
to help them unueistanu the vaiious ways that they coulu biing that balanceu appioach.
That it was okay, that they wanteu that, that we weie collaboiating with them in a full
uiffeient gestuie of caie, in a way. That empoweiing eneigy, wheie this fiame of being a
cieatoi iathei than a victim, anu how we felt that caie was something that ieally
auuiesseu that, foi these folks, was, I think, the fiame we useu in what you'ie uesciibing
as "enabling."
5*B#7E In one of oui pievious sessions yesteiuay, theie was a whole uialogue on
Appieciative Inquiiy, anu looking at what aie the positives in something that is happening,
anu builuing on those positives, iathei than focusing on the negatives, anu the shift that
Appieciative Inquiiy can pioviue foi a whole conveisation. It ieally makes such a big
uiffeience in the examples that weie being shaieu yesteiuay. So going back to the
piinciples that aie theie. The fiist one aiounu catalyzing the connections that aie theie,
anu continuing to builu on the connections that aie theie. We've been talking about how
things aie sustaineu, but maybe closing the loop back anu asking, how uiu they stait. You
mentioneu, uail, one inuiviuual who stoou up anu wanteu to make a uiffeience. Was that
youi expeiience as well, Beit. Was theie seveial people who got it going, anu that's wheie
you continueu to builu fiom.
?+)(E Well, I think foi me, in my system, this was an aiea that I nevei thought I'u be
involveu with. I giew up in an inuustiial haiboi town on the east coast of Canaua, St }ohn's,
New Biunswick. A pietty iough-anu-tumble place. I giew up in that pait of town as well.
So foi me, going back to that woilu, it was soit of familiai teiiitoiy. Because I'u been
involveu in that way of life, wheie that kinu of subcultuie was what was oiuinaiy foi me, I
was in an enviionment wheie I hau a bit moie of an infoimeu sense of what was ieally
happening theie. The way that the minusets anu sensibilities weie pietty oppoitunistic,
anu pietty "pie-peisonal" in a lot of ways. Pietty self-absoibeu. In the beginning, I was
able to finu a couple of othei similai sensibilities, but most weie. if we ieflect on the
fiame of Appieciative Inquiiy, foi instance, which is such a beautiful one, I think what I
woulu say I tiieu to ieally biing - because the pievailing winu was only Appieciative
Inquiiy, anu what's iight about eveiy situation. I woulu say, as a leauing euge, that's
absolutely the iight thing, anu the piominent thing to focus on is, let's ieally look at this
situation. Bow can we mine the nuggets, the gems, that aie lustious anu beautiful anu
goou anu tiue. Anu leau with that, anu ieally iuentify that. But I think what I founu was
something that I came to call Integial Inquiiy, which always begins with appieciation anu
value, anu this unconuitional positive iegaiu about the beingness of an inuiviuual, a family,
a ielationship, a system. What's woiking well.
Anu then at the same time, biinging in as an extension of appieciation, but almost being in
some ways a constiuctively ciitical appieciation as well. What woulu allow the system to
function bettei. What aie we uoing well, anu what aie we uoing not so well. What aie
some new things that we might be uoing. So foi me, that was a veiy impoitant fiame to
biing in. But again, it was builuing the biiuge, staiting with appieciation, what's woiking
well, catching people uoing things iight, anu then noticing that if we have visions that we
can iuentify, what woulu we like to see this to be tomoiiow, next week, next month, next
yeai. Bow uo we builu those biiuges. What might it iequiie of us to shift oui ways of
being anu uoing things in the system. So, I uon't know if that makes sense in teims of
Appieciative Inquiiy. I'm actually cuiious to heai what you think of that.
5*B#7E It's ceitainly a lot of thought aiounu the appioach foi Appieciative Inquiiy. What
stiuck me in what you tolu me was something you saiu aiounu Integial Inquiiy, anu kinu
of looping this all, oi connecting all of this togethei, is what I think of when you use that
language. Though foi me, it is aiounu, what is the Appieciative Inquiiy, oi what aie those
questions that we have. Anu then, what aie the things that we can continue to builu on.
Anu again, kinu of that connection back to Integial Inquiiy ieally has me thinking.
0ne of the things I see foi both of you is that you aie veiy connecteu into the integial
community, anu I'm cuiious as to what aie you seeing within the integial community -
what is neeueu to continue to shaie this amongst those within this community.
?+)(E I think my expeiience has been, uou now ovei the yeais, like I'm an olu guy in this
woilu. I think it's been the same thing as the beginning. What we have in this integial
mouel - anu I think Naiilyn flushes out this beautiful complexity with it in hei Neshwoiks
- anu taking so many of the mouels that inspiie us, ieally aie a soit of integial
appieciation of the many uimensions of any kinu of context oi ciicumstance oi situation
anu because we'ie moveu, this integial sensibility in oui spiiit to wiuely embiace
eveiything, to make eveiything iight, it becomes a little unwieluy anu oveiwhelming foi
people who uon't shaie oui passion like this. I think what we've being tiying to leain, anu
think we'ie still on oui way - we can't soit of abanuon the complexity of things. It's soit of
like the piinciple of, to eveiy complex pioblem theie's a simple answei. that's wiong.
So we have to holu the complexity of things, anu take a multiplicity of peispectives if we
want to make suie we'ie appiehenuing it sufficiently, then hopefully uealing with it
effectively. But at the same time, theie's soit of a simplicity on the othei siue of complexity
that I think as a mouel, as a movement, we'ie still stiiving to stiike some choius that aie
going to be iesonant with the laigei populai cultuie.
Anu foi me, what that's come uown to ovei the yeais is, iathei than talking about the
multiveises anu the multi uimensional ieality of things.wheie people's eyes stait glazing
ovei, it's simply this shift. Anu we can use it with levels, lines, states, stages, types anu
anything else. A soit of biiuging fiom an eitheioi sensibility to a bothanu sensibility.
Theie aie a lot of mouels that speak to that which aie uimensions of the integial
movement - things like polaiity management, foi instance. That is simple enough, anu it's
actually iauical anu soit of ievolutionaiy foi a lot of the people that we'ie tiying to seive.
It's a uigestible chunk that people can metabolize. It can be veiy poweiful foi people.
I think just uoing that is something that we'ie going to uo well as a movement, to bieak
uown anu focus on the moie infoimeu ways, anu see what the biiuges aie between
vaiious stakeholueis, anu how we invite people to cioss those bounuaiies to keep one foot
anchoieu secuiely in systems that they'ie cuiiently iesiuents in, but they know theie is
something to shift to, peihaps. I think us builuing those biiuges of iueas anu
communication skills, anu then actions, aie wheie value is going to be. So I think we'ie still
leaining a lot about that in the integial movement.
5*B#7E What woulu you see uail.
@*#"E I agiee with what Beit's saying. Ken Wilbei staiteu to wiite on Integial Theoiy in the
miu 8us. But he uiun't ieally stait calling it Integial Theoiy until sometime in the eaily to
miu 9us. Anu then it was in the eaily 2uuus that the community kinu of came togethei
aiounu the Integial Institute seminais. Since then, well actually, thiough that time, I feel
like. imagine a guitai. We'ie playing one stiing. hanging out amongst ouiselves in some
ways, like playing the one stiing. I've ieally, in the last few yeais, felt like we have to get
out of that place, anu actually go back into the fielus in which we weie woiking. In my case,
it's inteinational uevelopment anu community uevelopment, anu actually not hang out
with my integial community. Insteau, just go be piesent in my fielu to co-paiticipate in its
evolution, iathei than being in a little enclave. Actually just going out into the woilu, anu
shaiing these iueas in ways that aie iesonant with those fielus that we finu ouiselves in.
So foi example, I've maue some uecisions this yeai in iegaius to that. 0ne of them is
iegaiuing oui oiganization, Integial Without Boiueis. We uon't want it to be seveieu off -
not so much seveieu off in a negative way, but we uon't want it to be an enclave. We
wanteu it to be such that we coulu iemain in communication anu in uiiect paiticipation
with all these othei oiganizations anu funueis anu people that aie out theie in the fielu of
inteinational uevelopment. I feel that's the way we'ie going to meshwoik it, if we just
continue to be in seivice of the evolution of the whole Spiial. I'm not suie if I'm answeiing
youi question exactly as you've askeu it, but uoes that lanu foi you at all, Baviu.
5*B#7E Yes, it uoes. Anu actually I think it's a gieat tie into a possible bieakout question of
asking eveiyone on the call of how uo they self oiganize meshes anu hieiaichies to auu
value within theii city. Anu I'm wonueiing, Eiic, if that's a question that we can pose to oui
calleis.
Q)#2: 0kay, this is Eiic coming on anu yes, we can uo a little bit of a uiscussion peiiou heie
to lean into that question, oi if people finu it moiphing in some way, that's fine, too.
Theie's a lot of thieaus to weave into. quite a juicy uiscussion going on heie. Anu I think
maybe one thing I woulu just auu in teims of a fiame to holu this, because many of us who
aie on this call aie kinu of staiting to self-iuentify with Integial, anu yet theie is some
uiffeient sensibilities. We'ie looking at what's that tiansition. Anu I like a teim that Beit
biought in eailiei, too, about that optimal uiscomfoit as we lean into new euges. A kinu of
foot in the olu way of looking anu then the bothanu stietching out into a new way of
making sense of things. So I think as people go into gioups to exploie - just to allow a little
bit of that uiscomfoit of, okay, how uo we finu oui oiientation heie. What's the most
impoitant thing that we can be uiscussing in oui paiticulai gioups heie to come into some
new ways of unueistanuing.

5*B#7E Right. So the question was: Bow uo self oiganizing meshes anu hieiaichies auu
value to youi city. So again, how uo self oiganizing meshes anu hieiaichies auu value to
youi city.
(Aftei Bieakout uioups)
5*B#7E In going thiough all of the uiffeient gioups anu listening to all what was being
talkeu about, theie was veiy much a theme of cultuies, anu subcultuies, anu the
impoitance of engaging anu welcoming people as pait of that, anu embiacing oi
iecognizing the similaiities that we all have. That leaus towaius stiongei inclusions oi
stiongei solutions at the enu of the uay. a stiongei feeling of being in place, anu that
actually we all aie similai when you get iight uown to it.
?+)(E Theie was some conveisation about the similaiities amiust the uiffeiences. I guess
that's the point that I was noticing myself ieflecting on. I get the feeling that as an Integial
sensibility, what I want to uo is holu the tension of embiacing opposites aiounu that iuea.
Things that we've often calleu stiuctuies of uiveisity, anu iecognizing the tiuth of that, as
well as stiuctuies of univeisality. Anu oftentimes we'll foieclose by piefeiiing oi favoiing
- I think that's a natuial thing - one ovei the othei in uiffeient instances. The gestuie of
univeisality is a wonueiful thing, anu uiffeience is wonueiful, anu how uo we holu both
simultaneously. Piesencing both these opposites togethei. Anu the tiuth that these aie
complementaiy tiuths that aie almost necessaiy opposites siues of the same coin.
The thing that I noticeu a little uiffeient is, if we think of oui ability to ieally appieciate
anu honoi anu love anu embiace uiffeience, I was heaiing some that in its univeisality.
Sometimes I think what we can unintentionally foiget anu get confuseu about is, howevei,
much at the heait of the mattei. Not only all humans, but all beings, anu even all mateiial
in the univeise, if eveiything is unitive anu eveiything is one. But within that unity theie is
also a lot of amazing uiveisity, anu some of the uiveisity in teims of embiacing all of it. I'm
not suie that life always wants us to only embiace. If we think of that as a gestuie of caie
anu concein, that I think sometimes to pieseive anu enhance anu extenu oi enable, if we
use that teim, the "goou" in whatevei system we'ie woiking with, theie also might be, if
we take the wisuom of Ecclesiastes, "to eveiything theie is a season." You know, theie's a
time to embiace, a time to heal, a time love, anu a time to kill. Can something like that, to
saying No, iathei than only accepting anu toleiating anu embiacing, which veiy much
lights up oui post-mouein pluialistic sensibility, which is beautiful. But the Integial
sensibility also ietuins to highlighting anu activating all the coues of human expeiience.
Anu that laigei gestuie, I think, has its fingei on a laigei pulse, of laigei cycles anu
seasons, in the natuie of ieality, in life. Anu it's not usually as populai to say. which is
why I sometimes say it.
But theie's something again about this Integial Inquiiy anu integial embiace which, in the
seivice of a laigei goou, I sometimes wonuei if it always involves only embiacing
uiffeience, anu whethei theie might be a uiffeient holuing enviionment that is able to
absolutely value the heait of eveiything, while not necessaiily being able, in its seivice of
the laigei goou, to sign off on all expiessions. So that's my fiist thought.
Q)#2: Thank you Beit. I'm ieally appieciating that integial sensibility that you aie pointing
us towaius.theie's a lot to unpack in that. Thank you. I'm awaie that oui time is coming
closei to the enu anu I'u like to biing uail back in, too, if you have some peispectives fiom
what you weie listening to in youi gioup anu what you might like to weave into this.
@*#"E In my gioup, I was stiuck by just the kinuness anu the caie that each peison hau foi
each othei, anu that was one of the most staik obseivances that I saw. Anu the othei was
something that I pickeu up fiom uiscussion. just that this integial appioach to woiking
with meshwoiks ieally helps us meet people wheie they'ie at, anu honoi wheie they aie,
anu that has a quality of unifying. Some of the people weie iefeiiing to othei woik they
hau uone in othei paits of the woilu in iegaius to that. I think that's been veiy tiue foi
wheie I have been woiking, like both in Canaua anu oveiseas. It's just that ability to meet
people exacting wheie they'ie coming fiom. That is a skillful means that is often one of the
moie uifficult things that I might uo in a uay. Bowevei, in some ways it's a piecuisoi, oi
even a pieiequisite, foi an effective meshwoik. Because if you can't meet people anu
honoi wheie they'ie at oi wheievei they might be, it's haiu to get any soit of connection
going, let alone a meshwoik connection. So I took that away fiom the uiscussion. I thought
that was a veiy beautiful thought to actually enu on, as well as something I can take back
into my own piactice.
5*B#7E Thanks veiy much uail, its Baviu, anu I wanteu to thank both youiself uail anu Beit
foi the time touay. }ust a fantastic conveisation anu it's ceitainly left me with a lot of
thoughts anu things, as I think Eiic was saying, to unpack anu to piocess ovei the next
while. So with that I'u like to hanu it back to Eiic.
Q)#2: Yes, anu thank you again too, uail anu Beit, |foi aj veiy iich conveisation. |Nuchj to
chew on this subject of meshwoiking intelligence ..
Baiu tiuths aie haiu
to call out
in fiagmentation
so let's connect
what matteis
to uesign what woiks
with memetic competence.
taken fiom a Baivesting poem by B".3 +/(:"8-

1

Dots
What and where are we implementing meshworking
intelligence?
Speakers: Anne-Marie Voorhoeve & Morel Fourman
Interviewed by Dr. Marilyn Hamilton, PhD
September 19, 2012

Morel Fourman has a passion for values and using technology as a means
of facilitating large-scale positive change. He is founder and CEO of
Gaiasoft, a company that develops and implements collaborative
management systems for multinationals, large projects and governments.
He is also founder of Gaiaspace, social/professional networking software
that fast-tracks positive change for professional groups, communities and
nations. Morels recent work includes: Designing the technical and business
systems to capture and improve best practices on risk and resilience; strategy mapping
and design of measurement systems; building a knowledge-based economy for Africa;
and co-designing and facilitating a series of Emergence retreats in the US, Africa,
Europe, Australia and India. Morel is author of numerous papers and articles on
performance, transformation and leadership. Morel is author of Managing in the New
Economy; Performance Management Habits to Renew Organizations for a new
Millennium and The Book of Personal and Global Transformation.
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve is a strategic connector, synnervator and mesh
weaver with Center for Human Emergence, Netherlands. Anne-Marie
initiates and participates as project leader on meshworking - multi
stakeholder process design, delivery & development, including training. She
is a certified trainer in various community development tools and numerous
facilitation processes. She encourages people of all ages to make use of
their full potential and own creative power to (re)design their work into a
meaningful and empowering part of their life. She is working internationally with
businesses, business networks, international organizations, technology providers,
politicians and NGOs in diverse multi-stakeholder groups. Where appropriate, she plays a
mentoring role, building the competence of team members and participants. She
dedicates a great deal of her time to the development of youth and employment, such as
the international network YES.

Marilyn Hamilton: Today I welcome both Ann-Marie Voorhoeve from the Netherlands
and Morel Fourman from Yorkshire. We are speaking to them in their local time of 1 a.m.
and midnight respectively. So I very much appreciate their contribution to the conference
with their expertise as meshworking practitioners. Anne-Marie, the first question I have
for you, relates to the lifecycle of the meshwork. Can you walk us through how they
unfold?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: If you look at the sheet that we put up [on the website], we were
inspired by the three phases, that Berkana Institute also has developed, where we can see
that people come together for common goals. They first get to know each other and find
out how they can connect, and what they want to achieve. They can support each other in
getting their own goals realized.
It is not until there is some trust built that people are really prepared to be more
vulnerable. If we look at communities of practice, where people really start sharing their
learning and where they are prepared to get into some kind of not knowing to learn from
each other. When you are trying to learn for yourself and really are vulnerable, and you
also want the other person to also learn, you are still focused on yourself. This will
influence what you find as a meshwork (as defined by Don Beck and all our experiences).
We are really going for a higher goal like Don calls the third win and that is going way
beyond my goal and your goal something we are putting ourselves in service of. It seems
to be necessary that there is some kind of process before this stage that you have to get to
know each other. You have to build this sense of community, a safety to really connect in
this way to put yourself in that situation.
Marilyn Hamilton: So if I am hearing you correctly, these individuals are connected into a
network, and then after a time they actually create enough trust, so they develop a
community of practice, that has some norms to it. That must take a while as well? Then
eventually more than one community of practice connects with others and we have a
system of influence. And so there are the three stages that you have noticed. But you have
gone on to tell us that there is something more that you have noticed. I am curious - how
long does it take to develop from a network, to a community of practice, to a meshwork?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: That very much depends on different things but primarily it
depends on the consciousness of the people who are coming together. My experience is
that it has very much to do with people. Although in the work Im doing I am working with
people who represent organizations. But it is the consciousness of the persons in the
group, whether you can move forward quickly or whether it takes a long time. So that is
one of the important considerations.
Marilyn Hamilton: Can you tell a little bit more about a super-ordinate goal and its
relationship to the third win that Don Beck talked about? Does the super-ordinate goal,
come from the people in the communities of practice, or through a meshwork, or can it
come from outside? Have you had experience with one or the other or both?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: I have experienced both. In the Center for Human Emergence
(CHE) itself, it is coming very much from the people within themselves and then it
connects to other [groups] and from there on, they connect further. In the Millennium
Development Goal (MDG5), where we worked for improving maternal health, and which I
was one of the co-founders of, we actually invited people in and [helped] them to see if
they could connect to the goals of improving maternal health. They could bring in the best
of themselves and their organizations to reaching the Millennium Development Goal in a
more, sufficient, faster way. Especially in that group I think, I didnt have a meshwork,
when we started, six years ago I didnt have these cycles very clear [in my
understanding]. So I actually skipped the necessity really, of, first when you get together
like that, inviting them in - and to really first build the network and go into the community
of practice stage. So [I could see] they were committed and they were really trying, but
they hadnt gone through enough together and there was not that inner longing and
consciousness for everybody to really get beyond their egos and contribute that way and
really make offers. Because I think that is what we are really talking about.
Marilyn Hamilton: So if you are really thinking about peoples consciousness in terms of
a meshwork and something like a Millennium Development Goal, which was globally
designed from the beginning, when everyone started working with you were they at the
same level of consciousness or did you have a full spectrum of different levels of thinking,
of different ways of viewing the world? How does that work with developing the stage of
first the community of practice and then the meshwork?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: It has all colors of the spiral in it especially because we are
working in The Netherlands, where completely different kinds of organizations, you know
the business world, the NGO world, research institutes, where people have different (from
the spiral lens) colours in themselves. While in Sierra Leone and Afghanistan, life
conditions there are, of course, are very different. So you see in that group, now where 35
different organizations are participating, that there is a huge difference. So there you see it
takes much more time.
When we started, I hadnt worked out (like now working with Morel) [how I had to] work
with the whole community - like I have been doing for the past few years - to really find
the right systems and structures. I really noticed how important they are in supporting the
group to fall into their natural place. Thats really something, where Morel has really
supported me in my own learning to see how important the subtle aspects to his
structures [give] people a safe environment to bring the best of them forward.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is a really interesting observation to make about structures in
contributing to something like a meshwork. I am going to get to Morel in a minute, but
something that you have talked about Anne-Marie, that I think our audience would be very
interested in hearing about, is that there is a phase shift an energetic shift that occurs
at some point as the structure emerges. Could you tell us a little bit about the experience
you have had with that?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: What weve been noticing or what we have been
experimenting with in materializing the relational part, like you have just talked about
the trust building is very important. But it is still in [dealing with] complex problems very
complicated, how to get things moving, to decide what is really the right thing to do. If we
stick to our minds, we just dont seem to really get to the essence.
So what we have been developing and practicing is really working from our hearts and
using other energetic architecture and trying to experiment with that as well to support
the rest of the work. In the trust building and in getting people to their hearts and being
vulnerable to getting to the not knowing actually that is very often the problem really.
We are looking at issues that we see working from all kinds of different sector in society
perhaps, but we have not found always the right solutions or not quickly enough anyways.
So we need to collaborate in a different way.
We have to go to this space of being prepared to not know and to experience a sense that
comes from deep space, somewhere within within well actually, within my belly. And it
is also connected to what happens around me and can we take notice of whats
happening? Not only within the people but within the space between us, within nature
that is around us. How can we get ourselves informed of what is the next step to be taken?
It is being sensitive to those kinds of signals. That is what we are working now. What
seems to be very important is to be really very grounded, connecting to Mother Earth.
Really like tai chi those kinds of martial arts, where you are really grounded in the
deepest part of your body. That brings a different energy into the whole room and gives
people invites people to go into that deeper space themselves. So that is what we are
practicing now as meshweavers now in The Netherlands.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is very interesting because it sounds like you are connecting
through these grounding processes you gave tai chi as an example. I know some of the
workshops you and I have been in together, we have used other practices of embodiment
in order to be actually aware of self. We have also used opportunities to go out into
nature, take a walk and bring something back that speaks to us about the question that we
are facing. So kind of opening ourselves up into intuition. Are those also kinds of practices
[you are talking about]? Or do you have other heart opening practices that might be
simple to share with the audience today?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: Well weve come with a set of principles of Synnervation
where we go through the chakras. They go through phases from the heart, connecting as
you go from the lower chakras, [first] grounding, to manifestation, to the third chakra, and
then the heart, to connect the fourth resonance, and then the fifth vision and the sixth
chakra, and the seventh wholeness. Then we have affirmations from the I, the We and the
Its perspective. Depending on what the focus is of the session I am going into, where I feel
what I need, I use to gather the We or Its affirmations which all have to do with the
chakras and which help really align ourselves. Shall I just give you one of them?
Marilyn Hamilton: I would love it yes please do.
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: As we are talking about the systems and structures the Its - I
will do Its starting from the grounding.
So the first one is it is formed.
The second one which has to do with full embrace is: it allows everything to settle
in its natural place.
The third one has to do with manifestation, It is: it delivers.
The fourth one is from the heart and it is: it serves.
The fifth one is: it resonates.
The sixth one is: it is directed by a clear vision.
The seventh one is: it is inspired.
So it is a very profound, for me anyway, this set of principles which I can use for my own
alignment, for the group alignment. I also use it as a kind of a checklist, when I am working
with the group, whether we have addressed or given space to all these things. So I am too
much in service? If I am in service, I am in the heart space. Do I also take notice that I allow
everything to settle in its natural space or place? Do I actually come up to that deliver
part as well? Are we sometimes too much focused on the details or are we are we still
redirected by clear vision? So in that sense it is kind of a checklist, to see, if from the heart
and sensing it in my body will I also sense it in the collective body? Because this is the
Its-really sensing into the group. While we are working with the principles, are we giving
attention to all these different aspects? What I really see and experience in the
collaboration with Morel and with systems and structures, we are trying to find to support
this, is that it comes from this deeper level. There is a connection on this deeper level, so
that can really help me ground more to be of service to the third win.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats beautiful Anne-Marie and I want to thank you that full
spectrum of the seven ways that you are able to align. I am struck with how they relate
even to the Master Code, that I use for Integral City. My short form for that is: take care of
yourself, take care of each other, take care of this place (which could be the city or the
planet). I could see how this set of affirmations would give us a common sort of gateway
into that too, seeing heart full how to embrace all of those. So thank you. And you have
opened up a beautiful segue for me to bring Morel into the conversation.
So Morel, Anne-Marie, almost through these affirmations has created a scaffold by which
we can have heart performance in some ways. I know that is something you have been
really focused and committed to for a long time. How can we bring the fullest human
consciousness into performance in service? And if we are talking about meshworking
today, some think it is a new idea, but you have been working with cities for a long time,
working with their scorecards and performance indicators. So could you actually give us
some ideas [referring to your slides on the website so that we can refer to them] how you
can relate meshworking to something like a city scorecard?
Morel Fourman: Just to refer back to what Anne-Marie was saying, this relationship
between structure and energy. If an organization is disorganized, then it is often not an
easy place to have fun in and be productive. So if you look at nature, [you notice when] a
life form becomes disorganized and starts to break down - then life begins to ebb away. So
structure actually allows life. I was struck when in your introduction and you said that a
meshwork combining and embracing the self-organization and hierarchical structures. As
I was listening to you saying that, I was struck by the fact that multi-nationally where an
effective organization has that, it has self-organization locally but it also has replication of
what works [globally].
Coming to your comment about scorecards and performance indicators, we studied that
question in relation to the first slide. The first slide is a picture of a scorecard for a city.
This is an example from an African city that we have worked with for over 10 years. It is
the largest city in sub-Saharan Africa. In that city, the mayor makes a promise to the
citizens, in his political promise to those citizens. That political promise is a set of tangible
things that are politically set out to be achieved, that is passed to a city manager. So if you
like, that is the purpose for organizing the operations of the city. That set of objectives that
the mayor has, is then translated into a scorecard a set of performance indicators for the
city manager. That in turn, in this particular city, is cascaded down to the departments of
the city, through the members of the executive committee.
Weve got this idea of a hierarchy of intent. The pinnacle of the hierarchy, that we want the
city to achieve the most noble objective that is cascaded to the organizations
[departments]. So the organization is held departmentally around these objectives. So that
is the ideal.
A good measurement structure, like a set of performance indicators acts like a scorecard.
It creates a gathering place around which resources, people, ideas, creativity, self-
organizes to create effective systems. If you have this scenario of a scorecard for a city and
then cascade its measures down through the organization, you really have become a
combination of self-organizing and a replication of structures, particularly in a large city
like London or Johannesburg. You have a different combination in each region and the
replicated structure in each region of the city say, in each borough of London where
there are similar types of services that need to be delivered housing, policing, and health
care. And so you have replication of a set of service requirements and you have the
replication of a set of measures, performance indicators.
You know some people are allergic to measurement? As a student of nature, I love
measurement. Because, we thrive with this level of vitality because there is a constant
process of homeostasis. The body at many levels is measuring itself and sustaining vitality.
So a measurement system can be a way of creating and sustaining vitality of aligning a
large organization to a purpose.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you Morel. Your response aligns beautifully with Elisabet
Sahtouris, whom I believe you know? She talked about how the cell is like a city. She and I
had discovered that she talks about the cell as a city that has all kinds of performance
within the elements of the cell. And I think the city is a living system like a cell.
I was really so impressed with your whole Gaiasoft performance system, that when I
looked at it for an individual city, I wanted to take it out into the city (outside City Hall). I
asked, what would happen if we lined up all the other institutions on the same kind of
performance measures bringing in education, healthcare, justice, etc. so that we
actually would have a way of looking at the whole system of the city. For a while it
sounded like that was rather theoretical, but in the last number of years, especially since
we started to measure greenhouse gases. As we talked with Bill Rees, who was the person
who created the framing for the carbon footprints (back on Day 1 of the Conference) we
realized that cities are trying now to reduce their carbon footprint. Morel, can you give us
some examples of how this kind of meshworking for a purpose like C02, reduction could
work?
Morel Fourman: That is a great example, because it is unlike the first example I gave of
performance management indicators for a city like Johannesburg, which is in somewhat of
a [set of measures that are] steady state. Where you have to consider carbon reduction
and you have a group of cities like the C40, whereby those cities are learning how to
reduce CO2 and learning how to do reduction of carbon emissions [it is not steady state].
To take the example of the C40, that relates to the second slide in the in the slide set that I
provided (on the website), you have the central idea of the sustainable city and then you
have this kind of satellite picture, that around that sustainable city, you have areas of
buildings, such as transport, business, energy, water those are the areas that are
identified by the C40 as the key areas that we need to pay attention to in reducing CO2
emissions. So, that would be a top level categorization of performance indicators, or a top
level of an organization framework for a program of carbon reduction.
Now, what I want to do is make the connection between that kind of framework and
learning across regions within a city like Johannesburg or boroughs in a city like London.
Or even and this is where I think it gets very exciting if we take the C40 cities where
Johannesburg is a member and London is a member, then each of them has buildings,
transport, business, industry etc., so each of those cities is a replicated structure and those
are replicated areas of CO2 emissions.
So we can imagine (and this is slide three) a grid, a mesh if you like. One dimension of the
mesh is the areas of carbon reduction. The other dimension of the mesh is the cities of the
C40. I took this slide to a presentation for a group of Chinese cities and American cities.
Now the point is that at each intersection in that mesh, there is a combination of a city, like
London, and a topic of carbon reduction, like waste management. The waste management
person in London can learn something from the waste management person in
Johannesburg, can learn something from the waste management person in Cape Town. So
you have got a natural opportunity to create a communities of practice.
So I sometimes refer to a meshwork as a structured community of practice or a stratified
community of practice, where youve got these different strata. Youve got people
connecting at the functional level of waste management, water, planning, etc.Youve also
got people connecting by role, connecting by function. So the performance framework of a
city or the performance framework of the C40 provides a beautiful seed if you like, pro-
seeding a beautiful meshwork across all those cities.
Now why would you want to do that? You could put 1,000 people in a room and they
would bump into people and say I am really pleased to meet you. It would not be very
useful. But you can really precipitate those fortuitous connections by creating a structure
whereby in the physical world, the waste management person in Johannesburg and the
waste management person in the City of London will meet. Usually it is very unlikely that
they will meet except at a conference. But in the virtual world, where an event is
organized according to the common meshwork process, that Anne-Marie and I work with,
you can guarantee that those people will come into close proximity. So you can quicken
synchronicity. You can enhance the likelihood [of them meeting].
So instead of change happening with a very slow S-curve meandering along, change can
happen on very quick S-curve, where good things happen quickly. I like to believe and I
challenge complexity scientists with this idea of collaboration efficiency. Collaboration
efficiency could be 100 per cent efficiency it would be a full opportunity for connections,
relationships, supply chains that would get created in a moment.
The question is how close can we get to that? How can we design social processes? How
can we facilitate them? How can we design technology that grows into relationships
together quickly? That brings investors together for projects? That brings people solving a
problem together with best practices for solving that problem?
So actually that is a function of the meshwork. A measurement structure provides a great
way of seeding a meshwork. And the meshwork provides a great way of bringing together
people so when they meet they can do useful things together. So to close off on your
comment about C02 creating a hierarchy, or measurement taxonomy, scorecard for a
C40 city and using that to organize the people across multiple cities is a very efficient way
of creating communities of practice, where people are trying to solve the same problems
and can learn from each other.
Marilyn Hamilton: What I see that you are offering their Morel, is as you pointed out, a
structure, a system for being able to track the performance of what it is we are trying to
achieve within the super ordinate goal. I am curious [about these metrics], because you
and I have worked in thinking about the city using an integral model and using integral
metrics from each of the quadrants. So the left-hand quadrants would contain in the Upper
Left (UL), the learning and even the education systems of the city and the lower left (LL),
the relationships, the cultures, and values and vision.
Im curious if I could bring back Anne-Marie into the conversation. Are there ways, when
you are using this kind of score carding approach, that we can make sure that we include
those left-hand quadrants and the full human system is integrated with the hard
environmental measures, that include everything from buildings, through water, through
waste management and food? I am just curious if the two of you might like to dialogue a
bit about that?
Morel Fourman: I could make a kickoff comment. It is one of my deep passionate
interests - the measurement of cultures and values. Unconsciously, systems often have
glass ceilings at the level of collaboration or social energy or what Anne-Marie might call
heart, that they can support. So one question is how do we design systems that liberate,
liberate human connection, heartful participation? And another question is how do we
measure the values? How do we measure what is unfortunately sometimes called
intangibles? Without going into detail - absolutely you can measure intangibles. You can
measure the culture which is in operation and I would recommend that you bring that into
a system like this. Then I would recommend that you bring the consciousness that Anne-
Marie brings into the whole way that people participate in getting things done together.
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: Yes, I think, what I find so valuable is that in order to measure,
we have been looking for really meaningful questions. Then finding ways to get people to
come together and find the answers to those questions. The process of answering the
question itself is very valuable in the relational part and in building the culture. What
Morels system does is to translate that also into a measure which makes it then very
tangible in what you are doing. So I think that is really of value for the lower [left and
right] quadrants and the higher left quadrants as well. That is the way we design it. We are
inviting people to really not just answer the question easily but go into that deeper space
and with a real answer, be prepared to say, perhaps, I dont know, or we need to find
out, or whatever.
Marilyn Hamilton: Anne-Marie you are talking about one of the other documents that we
posted on the website that is a scorecard definition template. As I look at that, what strikes
me is that you do the heart-based work as you build the relationships and as people get
connected they define their super-ordinate goal. As they move the conversation along
from networks, to communities of practice, to a meshwork, you can capture the learning
that you are emerging as you go along. Is that one of the ways that you can use this
template?
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: Yes we created one specifically for building the meshwork. We
actually start by finding the super-ordinate goal, but we also define principles of how we
work together. I think the combination with the purpose, the principles, and the process to
answer the questions, make it profound. When you have gone through that process, then
you have come up to the answers to the questions. And then if you can further launch into
the system that really makes it tangible for people.
Marilyn Hamilton: So it sounds like the act of interconnection can often be very self-
organizing and emergent but as you proceed, structures emerge and this document
captures those structures and people are able to give or see - a feedback loop, related to
what they are working on. That strikes me as being a very valuable outcome of
meshworking. It is a process, to connect the dots within the system but also, it is presaging
what we are going to talk about tomorrow on Navigating Intelligence. So you are giving
the system some ways to know itself. How are we doing? Are we going to achieve the goal?
Do we need to do some dynamic steering? So, thank you for introducing that.
Eric Troth: Here is a question from our audience. Please talk about the measurement and
the scorecards. I can imagine that might not resonate with certain postmodern
perspectives how do you introduce these measurement tools with people at different
levels and different ways of resonating to that approach?
Morel Fourman: There are two directions here. It is funny because we chose my role to
talk about tangibles [in this interview but I want to start with intangibles]. One direction
is how do we bring heart and vitality into the institutions that shape the world in which
we live? A multinational or a city management (as a city governance organization) shapes
the life of citizens, shapes the container in which the city exists. If we can bring values, if
we can bring the mesh quadrants into the way that the city thinks about what it is doing
that is a good thing. We can bring those sensitivities into measures and instruments that
can change the trajectory generally of the city toward something that is more holistic. That
is one direction.
Then there is the other direction that comes from a group of people, who have a
potentiality for shared purpose and alignment creating a system of measurement, creating
(if you look at slide four) a map of what a combined intelligence of the people in the room
believe is a framework for success toward a super-ordinate goal. You create a kind of
earth from space moment where all the people see where they fit into a whole that was
as yet unrecognized. So you can take this from a structured world into a sensitive world or
from a sensing world into structure. It will allow that sensing to experience new things. So
you could say, going back to Elisabet Sahtouris and life itself, life creates structure on
which it stands to experience new freedom. And if you can create the structure of a
framework through participation together, that gives us a whole new freedom to create
new things.
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: For all groups, we find a process [that let us] meet them, where
they are at [we try to discover] which part of the puzzle do they hold? Thats what the
system then shows us. I have always seen that people react to that, as a very profound,
meaningful moment, especially with these complex issues.
I think what we try to bring in all the time [we are together] is that: when you really see
you. I see you. I try and fit you in somewhere in the system, even though [we are talking
about] systems and structures and whatever, you should be able to, somewhere feel and
sense where you belong in that picture. It gives you the possibility to acknowledge your
place. But also relax to see that youre not alone, but there are many others doing other
work. So you can focus on what you are good at because that is the invitation we give all
the time: do what youre good at. Bring that in and others will do the same and you can
see that they are doing that. You can measure that. You can measure where you are doing
it yourself. You can look for the practices, etc. So it becomes meaningful. It touches people.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is really profound. It ties in with some of our other presenters
who talked about the power of joy when joy is in the room, when people feel their
greatest joy is actually contributing to some great need - the super-ordinate goal they
can see, all of a sudden, they can be there doing not only what they are best at, but this
actually releases this incredible energy.
I want to ask Morel to talk about this way of connecting with people with joy through the
different media we are using these days. Anne-Marie is working a lot in face-to-face and
online and in combination of those media. Morel, you have great talent in the whole field
of IT development you have patents there not only developing the systems per se, but
perhaps, you might actually see how those can release infrastructures for connecting
different organization? We have had some discussions in the conference about this time in
history, when we want to connect across the globe and cant always do that from a
sustainability perspective. We know that we should not really be spewing out all that
carbon-based fuel. One of the reasons we are having this conference, in this mode, is that
we can connect around the world and everyone can stay home. They can even be in their
pyjamas. I want to know how are we balancing these concerns, when we are creating
meshworks? Could we create a meshwork just online do you think? Or does there have to
be that face-to-face heart connection as well?
Morel Fourman: I think there is always a spectrum. Of course there is benefit in human
connection. I dont really want to argue whats possible or not. What I sense is called for is
something we wanted to create in Gaiasoft we wanted to create a software that enables
governance - that enables self-governance in tune with nature. What I see is this
replicating hierarchical structure. Every city is a crystal or a life form of a metabolism of
human life and nature and resources. Whats possible through the combination of
measurement and the processes that go around it, that can be likened to homeostasis, that
is life giving that we call democracy.
Democracy is a four or five year process [i.e. cycle] in most places of our democratic
system. And that is too slow to deal with the wisdom and the insight and the creativity and
all the disruption that is coming through. So one thing we are creating in these
measurement systems is, [conditions where] organizations are crystallizing their needs
from the government into a scorecard, that they can present to the Prime Minister and
Permanent Secretary so that can take action. When you set up a five year democratic cycle
and that becomes a political rhetoric there is this bimonthly [opportunity] where civil
society and business are bringing [feedback] into government. These are the things that
we really need to create for a vital society. So my vision and sense of the way it is going
and must go, is that cities will have an organ of listening to their constituencies - civil
society, the different organs of government, business - bringing to bear the wisdom of the
entire city in a structured way. It is a signal into the relevant parts of city governance and
the city can respond and be agile.
So I dream of a city that is agile like a life-form is agile and what we are able to provide
today is quite clunky. But there is no reason why we cant be agile in cities and I believe
that agility is what is needed and when city life forms emerge this new vibrant agile kind
[of communication], one to the other, we will have a fabric of cities across the planet. And
those learning cities will be able to solve issues of rapid transition, such as low carbon
living.
Marilyn Hamilton: If you are going to think about Gaias reflective organ, you want her to
be as healthy as possible and agile and able to adapt. So you have just drawn a picture
where it is not one or the other it is both-and. We are creating a field of collective
intelligence for seeding the noosphere through these combinations of different ways of
connecting, face-to-face, heart opening and also the virtual connections that we can have
through technology.
Anne-Marie Voorhoeve: One thing that we have found that is very important, is for us to
pay attention to our intention as we sit in circle regardless of the medium. Our intentions
impact how we can be together, and how we can learn together. They impact the
possibility of the meshwork. For example when we do a conference call we take time to
connect with one another and it is amazing to see what happens when we open up that
space. The heart connection goes through all mediums.
Morel Fourman: One question we are paying attention to is the sum total of all that is
technology and even its spirit the technium. And we ask we wonder about what
does the technium want? As spirit, over the millennia of years, has expressed itself
through creating nature, as ways of creating and experiencing new things, so we create
new platforms of expression as human beings. As Gaia seeks to manifest its homeostatic
systems, as Gaia seeks to incorporate human civilization into the life form as nature, and
human civilization and technology come together, as part of Gaias pattern, whatever
means are open Facebook, social media, telephone calls, chance meetings, groups
meetings we are creating a civilization in harmony with nature. We connect with others
and we make sense together because we are being thought by the same thought; we are
being en-purposed by the same purpose; we are part of the same emergent organ of the
intention of Gaia. So we are being used by an emergent possibility of a new civilization and
all of technology, and all of these means of connecting, are being used by that as well in
the process we are creating sustainability and the conditions for a new civilization can
happen.
Marilyn Hamilton: Morel, you are opening up the space for the fourth week of the
conference Amplifying Intelligences through our Evolutionary Power Source. So I would
like to take this opportunity to thank you and Anne-Marie for sharing your insights and
experiences about meshworking and how that is contributing to a new operating system
for the city.

Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12
1

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Speakei: Bazel Benueison
Inteiviewei: Bi. Naiilyn Bamilton
Septembei 2u, 2u12

5)< =*>+" =+%7+),-% is the founuei of Ethical Naikets Neuia, LLC anu
the cieatoi anu co-executive Piouucei of its Tv seiies. Bei euitoiials
appeai in 27 languages anu in 2uu newspapeis aiounu the woilu. Bazel
has seiveu on many boaiu membeiships, incluuing Woiluwatch Institute
(197S-2uu1), Calveit Social Investment Funu (1982-2uuS), anu othei
associations, incluuing the Social Investment Foium anu the Social
ventuie Netwoik. The fiist veision of hei Countiy Futuies Inuicatois
(CFI), an alteinative to the uioss National Piouuct (uNP), is a co-ventuie with Calveit
uioup, Inc. who publish the Calveit-Benueison Quality-of-Life Inuicatois. In auuition,
Bazel has helu a numbei of acauemic appointments anu was honoieu as one of the "Top
1uu Thought Leaueis in Tiustwoithy Business Behavioi 2u1u" by Tiust Acioss Ameiica.

?)#2 @)-(4A Welcome to the City 2.u 0nline Confeience. This is session 2S of oui S6-pait
seiies uuiing the month of Septembei 2u12. 0ui puipose is to co-uesign a new opeiating
system foi the city, baseu on the 12 evolutionaiy intelligences. 0ui oveiaiching theme foi
this thiiu week of the Integial City Confeience is: "Aligning stiategies to piospei: logic
piocessois connecting the uots." 0ui topic foi touay, uay nine of the confeience, is,
"navigating intelligence." 0ui thought leauei foi the fiist session is Bazel Benueison,
inteivieweu by Naiilyn Bamilton. 0n behalf of the Integial City Collective, I want to
extenu a waim welcome to oui live calleis touay, as well as to those who will be listening
to oui uownloaus in the futuie. Thank you foi being a pait of this giowing community of
piactice.
0ui inteiviewei foi this session is Bi. Naiilyn Bamilton. Naiilyn is a Canauian
sustainability piofessional; chaitei membei of the Integial Institute; founuei of Integial
City Neshwoiks; as well as founuei of the Centei foi Buman Emeigence: Canaua. She's on
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 2
the faculty at Royal Roaus 0niveisity, anu authoieu the book, "Integial City: Evolutionaiy
Intelligences foi the Buman Bive," which has pioviueu the fiamewoik foi this confeience.
0ne of the things that I am paiticulaily coming to appieciate about Naiilyn is hei
willingness to face the haiu tiuths of oui global situations with a iauical optimism that
ueeply senses into exciting new possibilities. It's a pleasuie to be with you again touay.
Welcome, Naiilyn.
B*)#"C% =*9#"(-%: Well thanks, Eiic. That's ieally an inspiiing intiouuction, anu I ieally
think that it biings a sense of the optimistic appioach that we aie tiying to cieate
thioughout the confeience. Anu you've set it up veiy beautifully foi touay.
So I want to stait off by just fiaming this session as pait of the foui weeks of exploiing
how to cieate a new opeiating system foi the city. In oui fiist week, we actually lookeu at
a planet of cities, thinking about Nothei Eaith as oui motheiboaiu. In the seconu week,
we actually lookeu at uaia's ieflective oigan. This was the teim that }ames Lovelock useu,
anu that I've boiioweu to say that this oigan has to have integial intelligence insiue. Anu
now this week we've been exploiing how we woulu uesign logic piocessois foi oui new
opeiating system. What is that enables us to connect all the uots. So touay's theme is the
intelligence of navigating. In !"#$%&'( *+#, , I uefine navigating intelligence as that which
monitois anu uiscloses the wellbeing oi the geneial conuition of the city.
Touay I've inviteu as oui thought leauei to exploie this intelligence, Bi. Bazel Benueison.
Let me intiouuce you to Bazel. Bi. Bazel Benueison is the founuei of Ethical Naikets
Neuia (ENN). She is the cieatoi anu co-executive piouucei of ENN's Tv seiies. Bei
euitoiials appeai in 27 languages anu in 2uu newspapeis aiounu the woilu. Bazel has
seiveu on many boaiu membeiships incluuing Woilu Watch Institute, Calveit Social
Investment Funu, anu othei associations, incluuing the Social Investment Foium anu the
Social ventuie Netwoik. The fiist veision of Bazel's, "Countiy Futuies Inuicatois: An
Alteinative to the uioss National Piouuct," is a co-ventuie with Calveit uioup, who
publish the "Calveit-Benueison Quality of Life Inuicatois." In auuition, Bazel has helu a
numbei of acauemic appointments, anu was honoieu as one of the "Top 1uu Thought
Leaueis in Tiustwoithy Business Behavioi" - 2u1u," by Tiust Acioss Ameiica.
I fiist encounteieu Bazel's woik with my intiouuction to the Bealthy Communities
initiative that was staiteu by the Woilu Bealth 0iganization in 199u. I followeu with gieat
inteiest hei intiouuction of a wellbeing feeuback system to the city of }acksonville, Floiiua,
anu have tiieu ovei the yeais to builu on Bazel's woik, in oiuei to cieate navigating
systems foi the wellbeing of cities. So it is with gieat pleasuie that I welcome you, Bazel,
to the Integial City 2.u 0nline Confeience.
=*>+" =+%7+),-%A Well thank you, Naiilyn. I'm going to enjoy this.
B*)#"C%A I know you aie, because you aie a ieal pio in actually getting the communication
about new paiauigms to the woilu. I think youi piesentation touay is stiategically locateu
in the unfoluing of the confeience, because youi woik aiounu the new paiauigms of
economics has ieally alloweu us to uiscovei that this evolutionaiy flow is something that
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 S
is both veiy piactical, anu veiy much a pait of who we aie as a human species - a veiy
alive system. I think of cities as the most complex of human systems. So let me stait oui
inteiview touay by asking you to talk a little bit about how you have uevelopeu a long
seiies of navigating systems. In oui piologue, we talkeu a little bit about how you have
gone thiough the economies of love, the gieen economy, anu the solai economies. Coulu
you help us by tiacing youi thinking of how you actually staiteu to evolve whole new
paiauigms foi economics.
=*>+"A Well, it staiteu veiy simply, Naiilyn. I began as an enviionmental activist in the city
of New Yoik in the 6u's. I founueu a gioup calleu Citizens foi Clean Aii. I uiu that as a
young mom of one small chilu. It was moie oi less in the play paik, wheie we all felt the
soot showeiing uown on oui uailing babies fiom a huge powei plant which was too close,
much too close, to the apaitment complex that we all liveu in on the East Siue of
Nanhattan. So veiy, veiy simple. I think that what happeneu was that I iealizeu I was a
new Ameiican citizen, iecently fiom Biitain wheie I was boin. I was tiying to unueistanu
how this amazing city that I liveu in functioneu! In oiganizing, wheie we eventually hau
thousanus of membeis, we hau block captains in eveiy boiough of the city of New Yoik. I
uiscoveieu that City Ball uiun't have any way of monitoiing the aii quality we weie all so
woiiieu about. So I thought, well, the best thing to uo is contact the mass meuia, the Tv
anu iauio, anu see if they woulu be willing to monitoi the aii quality on theii weathei
bioaucasts. So I began wiiting letteis while my uaughtei was asleep, anu senuing them to
the piesiuents of ABC, NBC, anu CBS, which at that time weie the big mainstieam meuia. I
leaineu that we hau in Washington a thing calleu the Feueial Communications
Commission (FCC), anu it hau a new commissionei, a veiy ciusauing commissionei calleu
Newton Ninow. So I thought, well, I'm going to copy Newton Ninow with my letteis saying,
woulu these netwoiks executives put this aii pollution inuex which the city hau, but it
was veiy, veiy piimitive woulu they put it on the aii on the weathei bioaucasts. To my
amazement, I got a lettei iight back fiom the FCC saying this is a veiy goou iuea, anu he
woulu be most inteiesteu to leain how the netwoik executives iesponueu. So, like any
othei thinking human being, I copieu his lettei anu foiwaiueu it back to these netwoik
executives who just ieceiveu my eailiei lettei. I was leaining the iopes, like anyone uoes
when they come to live in a new place. The fiist thing you uo is to tiy to leain the iopes
anu what goes on. So I was meeting with the women in the play paik anu all the iest of it.
We hau a little volunteei office that was given to us by a membei of oui city council. We
weie paiauing with oui baby caiiiages aiounu City Ball, you know, with balloons saying
that oui babies neeu to bieathe clean aii. 0ne moining, aftei a few weeks, I got a phone
call. A nice gentleman on the phone saiu, "Aie you the lauy who wants to uo an aii
pollution inuex on the weathei bioaucasts." I saiu, "Yes, that's me." Be saiu, "0h, I'm the
vice Piesiuent of ABC Television. We think it's a gieat iuea, anu we'ie going to uo it!" So I
leaineu a lot about the city of New Yoik |laughteij thiough that piocess! Anu it
encouiageu me.
I think what I woulu say, looking back, to think lateially you have to figuie out how you
can connect vaiious institutions anu oiganizations togethei in such a way that something
new can be cieateu. Fast-foiwaiu now to the iest of the inteivening paits of my life, I
iealize many people now call me a global acupunctuiist, wheie I'm always scanning global
ecosystems, anu global social systems anu goveinmental systems at all levels, anu tiying
to figuie out: Is theie some inteivention point wheie, if I coulu finu some ieally finely
honeu acupunctuie neeule, like some kinu of policy initiative, anu put it into that
malfunctioning pait of the system, that it coulu help it to ieconfiguie into something
healthiei. So I have lots of examples now of how I uo that kinu of thing. It's veiy subtle.
Anu most of them, nobouy knows about. But it's all pait of the whole iuea of feeuback, how
you help steei a system in a healthiei uiiection, by connecting the uots anu biinging
people togethei in unexpecteu anu unoithouox ways. So that's ieally who I am.
B*)#"C%A Well, those aie fascinating anu wonueiful stoiies. What I love about it is that it
comes fiom who you aie, fiom youi joy, fiom youi motheihoou, liteially as well as
figuiatively. I'm now veiy cuiious. Coulu you give us a stoiy about how you use the
acupunctuie noues anu points in a subtle way. That woulu ieally be helpful, to get a
glimpse of how you uo that.
=*>+"A 0ne that comes fiom 1S yeais ago was typical. As a membei of the Auvisoiy
Council of the Calveit uioup, which is a mutual funu company, we weie having a meeting,
anu the CE0 was telling us all that she ieally hau hopes that the funu - anu the iuea of the
funu, which was ieally changing economics, anu it was biinging togethei new metiics of
the social anu enviionmental peifoimance of companies - how this whole iuea coulu go
global. 0f couise, the best way to uo that woulu be to make Calveit into a global bianu. So
she askeu us all to chew on that iuea. Now, of couise, taking a company's bianu global
costs you about 1uu million uollais, you know, if you go to an au agency. So of couise that
was completely out the winuow. So I began to think about this. I went back to hei a few
houis latei anu saiu, "Bey, I think I know how you can tuin Calveit into a global bianu anu
it won't cost you anything!" She saiu, "0kay. Tell me what to uo." So I uiafteu a lettei foi
hei to the Secietaiy ueneial of the 0niteu Nations. I've woikeu with the 0niteu Nations in
many ways ovei the yeais. The lettei basically saiu that the Calveit uioup, which hau the
fiist anu the most extensive social auuiting unit - they have about 2u people woiking on
nothing but the social, enviionmental, anu goveinance auuiting of companies in theii
poitfolios - so this lettei basically saiu that since the 0niteu Nations was just foiming
what they calleu the 0N ulobal Compact, which was launcheu at the enu of the 199u's at
Bavos, Switzeilanu, the meeting of the Woilu Economic Foium. I was extiemely woiiieu
because I thought, "Ny golly. What's going to happen is a lot of these coipoiate CE0's
theie aie going to simply say, 'Suie! We'll sign youi nine piinciples of global citizenship,'
anu ieally it'll be kinu of left theie." It will be soit of PR. Anu it coulu be veiy bau foi the
wonueiful global bianu of the 0niteu Nations. So I was woiiieu about that. Anu I suuuenly
thought, well, if they hau a paitneiship with Calveit, anu Calveit hau the job of monitoiing
these companies that weie signing up, anu making suie that they ieally weie walking
theii talk, that it woulu be a winwinwin foi eveiybouy. So the lettei went out. The next
uay I got a phone call fiom the guy at the Secietaiy ueneial's 0ffice who was in chaige of
this 0N ulobal Compact, anu its nine piinciples that they weie tiying to iounu up all these
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 S
companies to sign anu commit to. Be saiu, "Bazel! What aie you uoing! These companies
uiun't sign up to get auuiteu! This is outiageous!" I calmeu him uown anu saiu, "No, no, no.
This ieally is what has to happen now, wheie we'ie in the woilu of globalization of finance
anu opeiations. So theie has to be monitoiing anu accountability. 0theiwise, the 0N is
going to be uevalueu," anu so on anu so foith. So he saiu, "Well, I've alieauy sent a
iecommenuation that the Secietaiy ueneial uecline." I saiu, "Please, please, please uon't
uo that!" I also ieminueu him that I hau a column that went to 2uu newspapeis aiounu the
woilu. So I askeu him to just holu off. I then put a call thiough to the heau of the
Inteinational Laboi 0iganization (IL0) in ueneva, who's a goou fiienu anu who I knew the
Secietaiy ueneial listeneu to. I saiu, "Woulu you please call him." Be saiu, "Well, as luck
woulu have it, I'm getting on a plane anu I'm going to have lunch with him tomoiiow." So I
kept my fingeis ciosseu, anu thought, "What is going to happen heie." Then a couple of
uay latei, I get a call fiom the CE0 of Calveit. She saiu, "Bazel! We've hau this lovely lettei
fiom the Secietaiy ueneial of the 0niteu Nations, anu he has accepteu oui offei." See, it
costs Calveit nothing, because they uo this anyway. So he accepteu oui offei anu he's
inviteu us all to go up theie anu have lunch. Anu he'll have the heaus of all of the othei 0N
agencies - you know, theie's all of these 0N opeiating agencies like 0NBP, 0NICEF, 0N0PS,
a whole bunch of them. Theii piocuiement buuget is almost a billion uollais a yeai. So he
wanteu them all to be theie aiounu the table, so that the same Calveit piinciples anu
auuiting stanuaius coulu be applieu on all piocuiements of the 0N, to this billion-uollai
buuget that they have. So the outcome was that all of the 0N agencies now use that kinu of
ciiteiia, the Calveit ciiteiia. Calveit then uevelopeu a "women's piinciples" of how to tieat
women iespectfully. A few months latei, the Woilu Bank came to Calveit anu saiu, "Well,
we'u like to buy youi seivice, as well, foi all of the companies that uo business with the
Woilu Bank." So that's what I mean by global acupunctuie.
B*)#"C%A That's a beautiful stoiy, just beautiful. Again, it's just a viviu tiajectoiy of how, by
taking action baseu on piinciples anu taking the initiative of what you think you can uo, it
ieally helps to give people an iuea of how being iauically optimistic is not uniealistic.
=*>+"A Not at all. 0f couise, it's all baseu on the way we cultivate oui netwoiks anu oui
ielationships, anu uevelop iespectful anu tiusting anu aumiiing ielationships with those
people that we most enjoy inteiacting with. 0f couise, I coulun't have uone something like
that as a young housewife in New Yoik City. I hau to wait foi many, many yeais to have
uevelopeu the skills anu the netwoiking anu the knowleuge base. So my knowleuge base
came ieally fiom seiving foi six yeais on the Auvisoiy Council of 0.S. 0ffice of Technology
Assessment. Basically, I hau no |euucationalj uegiees at that point. I was an enviionmental
activist, but I hau alieauy wiitten lots of aiticles ciitiquing economics, which I uiu fiom
the point of view of an activist. It was just so cleai that to those economic textbooks, aii
anu watei weie fiee, anu it was okay to pollute. All of that pollution in textbooks is calleu
"exteinalities." In othei woius, we uon't have to woiiy about that. We can "exteinalize" it
fiom oui balance sheet anu push the cost on to kius who have asthma oi whatevei. So it
was veiy easy foi me to make that kinu of ciitique. That lanueu me on this Auvisoiy
Council of the 0.S. 0ffice of Technology Assessment, wheie I was appointeu by my senatoi.
I was living in New }eisey at the time.
The point is that we all have to uevelop oui own leaining stiategies, beyonu all those silos
that aie still taught in the acauemic woilu. Luckily, we now have ways of tianscenuing that
woilu with things like Kahn Acauemy. I was just auvising my gianuson. Be's at a biicks-
anu-moitai univeisity, having tiouble with his calculus. I saiu, "Well look, go on
kahnacauemy.com." What's happening now is, stuuents aie iealizing that, hey, you can get
all the leaining, youiself, in the way you want it, by just going online.
I uevelopeu my unueistanuing of what I call the "love economy" baseu on the fact that at
least Su% of all of the piouuctive woik uone, all ovei the woilu, is not paiu. It's iaising
chiluien anu taking caie of elueis, seiving on the school boaiu, all of those uiffeient things
- community woik, Neals on Wheels, anu so on. It's actually the basis of how the money
uenominateu system opeiates. It coulun't opeiate if it weien't on that Su% of unpaiu
activity. So I lookeu at the economic textbooks anu thought, my gosh, that is not
iecognizeu anywheie. 0nce you auu that in, anu give it some kinu of equivalent monetaiy
value, you finu that even in so-calleu auvanceu inuustiial countiies, in Euiope anu Noith
Ameiica anu }apan, it's about Su%. But in ueveloping countiies, it can be as much as 7S%
of all of the woik that's going on. Anu it's not iecognizeu in the official economy anu the
official uBP numbeis. So I got veiy missionaiy, woiking again with the 0N anu the 0NBP's
Buman Bevelopment Inuex, which has a much bioauei net, anu saiu, "Let's uo a stuuy of
the non-money economy, anu let's see if we can put some equivalent numbeis on that."
That iepoit came out in 199S, anu it estimateu that the unpaiu, uniepoiteu, uniecoiueu
uBP I mean wealth that was cieateu was actually woith $16 #&+((+-" - simply
missing fiom what was the officially iecoiueu $24 tiillion of uBP that yeai. So in othei
woius, two-thiius of the piouuctive woik was simply missing. That's what I meant by the
love economy, anu that still neeus to be coiiecteu in uBP. So we'ie a lot wealthiei than we
think we aie. That's why this whole uiscussion of the ueficit, anu austeiity, anu cuts, anu
all the iest of it, is misguiueu. We'ie much wealthiei than we think we aie. At the same
time, if we steeieu oui uBP moie coiiectly, we woulun't have to keep tiashing the planet
in oiuei to keep eveiybouy fully employeu. That ielates to quantifying the fact that the
ieal economy on planet Eaith is fueleu by the fiee showei of uaily photons that come in
fiom the Sun. If we woulu leain to haivest those photons, just as well as plants uo in
photosynthesis, we woulu be absolutely fine. So my big push now is to get humans to look
up fiom uigging the stuff out of the Eaith anu tiashing the planet, anu insteau just
concentiating on solai panels anu winu powei anu othei ways of collecting the Sun's
eneigy, which is fiee. Theie is the othei pait of the abunuance.
All of this leaus to the fact that my cuiient woik now is engaging finance uiiectly. Because
it is the olu financial mouel, baseu on the obsolete economics, which is now the flywheel of
social anu enviionmental uestiuction all ovei the planet.
B*)#"C% =*9#"(-%A Bazel, you aie able to name one of these haiu tiuths that Eiic iefeiieu
to when he was intiouucing me. We heaiu yesteiuay fiom Bon Beck, who I know you
know, anu he also iefeiieu to the neeu foi us to look at the haiu tiuth. The haiu tiuths
aien't just the iesults of the intiactable pioblems that we encountei, that we aie
expeiiencing eveiything fiom watei shoitages to foou insecuiity to climate challenges.
You aie pointing to the fact that the choices that we maue in the olu fiamewoik of the olu
uBP type economy has leau us to these kinus of iesults. You aie also pointing not just to
the sepaiate new paiauigms that you have cieateu - the love economy anu the gieen
economy which you weie fiist to look at, but also the solai economy, which uoesn't negate
the love oi gieen economies. Can you speak a little bit about how, in fact, it embiaces them
anu caiiies them foiwaiu to an even moie elegant level.
=*>+" =+%7+),-%A They aie all aspects of the way that humans pioviue foi themselves on
this planet. We can pioviue foi ouiselves on this planet even at the cuiient population
level of moie than seven billion, anu piobably up to eight oi nine billion, which is what the
0N foiecast seems to say. I uo believe that population will level off, to the extent that
women aie alloweu fiee choice in biith contiol. As soon as women get any kinu of
euucation anu any kinu of fieeuom fiom these olu moiays anu patiiaichal societies, you
see immeuiately that the biith iate uiops to below ieplacement, as it has uone all ovei
Euiope. That's wheie we aie iight now.
We'ie asking, "Bow can we humans pioviue foi ouiselves equitably anu piospeiously by
completely ieuesigning oui monetaiy system." The ieason that the economics anu the
monetaiy system became so pieuominant is thiough the invention of money. Noney is a
veiy useful accounting system. I have no pioblem with accounting systems. Noney is a
veiy useful unit of account. It can help with oui tiansactions, make them simplei. But what
happeneu was that humans began to mistake money foi the thing that it tiacks, as being
valuable. Noney itself has no value, as we aie all beginning to iealize when we see it
piinteu eveiy uay on Tv. Noney is just a unit of account. It tiacks anu keeps scoie of
human tiansactions with each othei, anu with the natuial enviionment anu its iesouices.
The most impoitant thing to uniavel all of this, anu uniavel the powei of finance, is to
unueistanu how money woiks. What it is anu what it isn't. So Ethical Naikets put on a Tv
piogiam which has been out theie foi about two yeais. It's calleu .-"$, /+01 You can
watch it on youi laptop at ethicalmaikets.tv, it's an houi-long special. It goes into the
politics of money cieation.
Foi example, in the 0SA the Feueial Reseive gives banks the iight to cieate oui money out
of thin aii, eveiy time they give a loan to somebouy. They uon't get the money fiom some
uepositoi - which is the kinu of fiction that we aie tolu. They just simply wiite an
accounting entiy, anu cieate that money, anu auu it to theii own peisonal money supply.
Then they have ten times leveiage to make moie anu moie of it. So that is the system that
we woik with iight now, until we uniavel the politics of that money cieation, anu how it is
that the Feueial Reseive Boaiu can piint $6uu billion, as they uiu with quantitative easing,
QE1. They can then give it to theii fiienus on Wall Stieet in the big banks, because that's
what the olu textbooks say. You poui the new money into the top of these big banks, anu
guess what. It's supposeu to tiickle uown out the bottom in into Nain Stieet, anu into cai
loans anu stuuent loans anu all that. But with the globalizeu financial system, which the
textbooks haven't caught up with, we know that what happens to that money is that the
big banks senu it offshoie immeuiately. It goes to bet on the Euio, oi to bet on which
soveieign goveinment will uefault on its bonus, to iaise the piice of foou aiounu the woilu,
oi to cieate asset bubbles in Biazil. The Feus aie still using the olu textbook. So when that
uoesn't woik, they know that the money supply in the 0niteu States has collapseu, since
the banks stoppeu lenuing, anu they stoppeu secuiitizing all those moitgages anu selling
them to Wall Stieet. Now we have a foui tiillion uollai hole in oui money supply. So it isn't
a gieat iecession oi anything like that - that is just moie covei-up language. It's the
collapse of the uomestic money supply. So pooi olu Beinanke says, okay, we'u bettei uo
QE2, anu piints anothei six billion uollais, anu gives it to the big banks. Anu the same
thing happens. It all goes offshoie. Now he's just uone the thiiu one, wheie he says he's
going to piint $4u billion a month until the unemployment level goes uown. Well bless his
heait, he uoesn't iealize the tiansmission belt is bioken, anu that money will keep going
offshoie insteau of cieating jobs. So this is how impoitant paiauigm shifts aie.
Anothei paiauigm shift that we have to iecognize is that financieis uo not pioviue capital.
They aie inteimeuiaiies. They just take the savings of someone fiom Nain Stieet, anu they
aie supposeu to finu some goou way to lenu it oi invest it to cieate some moie piouuctive
seivices. But, of couise, what they uo now is, they have just become betting pailois. They
senu the money offshoie, oi wheievei, iathei than using it piouuctively. So we have to not
only unueistanu about money, but we have to stop being afiaiu of financieis. We have to
stop kowtowing to bankeis. Because the empeioi uoesn't have any clothes anymoie. That
is why I have always suppoiteu local communities that have ueciueu to uo theii own
cuiiencies. When the feueial cential banks weien't cieating enough chips so that the local
communities coulu cleai its maikets, anu tiansact, the way money is supposeu to be
uesigneu, they saiu, "0kay, we will cieate oui own chips then; cleai oui own maikets, in
oui own town." I have always useu cuiiencies as a leauing inuicatoi of how bauly a
national goveinment was managing its economy anu its money supply.
B*)#"C% =*9#"(-%A Bazel, this is a veiy inteiesting place to inteisect youi tiajectoiy of
evolutionaiy economies with a bank that actually wants to make a uiffeience. That is one
oui key sponsois of this whole on-line confeience, Rabobank in the Netheilanus. They aie
actually iealizing that although they have a lot of money in theii coffeis, theii key coie
value is theii ielationships. ueneiating the ielationships amongst theii clients is actually
going back to theii ioots as a coop anu cieuit union, insteau of being a big bank that is
senuing money offshoie. They ieally want to be a bank that invest in making cities well.
=*>+"A Absolutely. Rabobank has askeu me to uo seminais foi theii top executives. The
ieason I like Rabobank is because they aie a coopeiative.
B*)#"C%A Exactly. You aie always telling me about these new initiatives. I woulu like to
come back to these local cuiiencies in a minute because you have linkeu them to the BRIC
countiies. Rabobank has staiteu local cuiiencies aiounu healthcaie. So they aie actually
expeiimenting with local cuiiencies that suppoit neighboihoou healthcaie. I think it is an
amazing expeiiment to tiy. I think they have been listening to you, at the heait of totally
ieuefining what is the iole of the bank in the city.
=*>+"A Yes, this is why my fiienu Ellen Biown, a lawyei who wiote 23$ 4$5 -6 7$5#,
founueu the Public Banking Institute aftei looking at the Bank of Noith Bakota, which
opeiates similaily to Rabobank. It takes the tax ieceipts of the citizens of Noith Bakota,
anu lenu them out to civic piojects at little oi no inteiest. Also, they make them available
to the local community banks anu cieuit unions. They uon't belong to the Feueial Reseive
system. They have closeu the loops at the state level. It is veiy impoitant foi cities now. In
fact, Ellen's oiganization, the Public Banking Institute, has a lot of things going on with
cities - helping cities to keep theii own tax base, helping cities to put it in theii own city-
owneu coopeiative banks, so that you can be uefenueu against the global financial casino.
So I'm uelighteu to heai that Rabobank has help sponsoieu this confeience anu is also
uoing this in the Netheilanus. Right now a book which I uiu the foiwaiu to, calleu 7'&$ #-
*'&$8 is being ieleaseu in the Netheilanus in the Bague anu Amsteiuam which point
exactly in this uiiection. Bow uo we make caiing foi the community anu foi the citizens of
the city oi a countiy moie impoitant than the money. That's why we aie saying we just
have to go back to the piopei iole of money. The piopei iole of banks anu finance was to
seive the local economy, not to uominate it oi exploit it.
B*)#"C%A Bazel, I can see that you aie piovoking some questions fiom the auuience.
Befoie I let them give those questions to you, woulu you like to shaie wheie youi
evolutionaiy thinking is unfoluing now. You have a pioject going ielateu to biomimiciy.
It's ieally got the life-giving piinciples that I have been seaiching foi in the living system of
the city. Coulu you give us a little taste of what you have intiouuceu.
=*>+"A We have this tiansfoiming finance initiative baseu on eveiything I have been
saying. I iecently joineu my company with that of }anine Benyus of the Biomimiciy
Institute. We ueciueu it was time to engage the financial community uiiectly. So we
uesigneu the new piincipals of ethical biomimiciy finance - how you uo finance baseu on
ethical ethics anu life's piinciples. That is on the home page of ethicalmaikets.com, along
with oui othei initiative, which is the uieen Tiansition Scoieboaiu, which I haven't hau a
chance to talk about. Both of those initiatives, I believe, aie the way foiwaiu. Fiist of all,
the uieen Tiansition Scoieboaiu measuies the piivate investments going into the gieen
economies woiluwiue since 2uu7, anu oui veiy newest numbei is $S.6 tiillion. So we aie
on tiack, if we humans keep on investing about $1 tiillion uollais pei yeai between now
anu 2u2u. We will have left the fossil fuel age, anu we will be enteiing the solai age of
those fiee photons anu an abunuant futuie.
B*)#"C%A That is ieally optimistic, but I know that this is the thiiu inteiview that I have
been able to uo with you ovei the last thiee months. The fiist one was actually connecteu
with a pioject I was woiking on with a South Afiican city. You tolu me then that the solai
economy was ieally being investeu in by some countiies moie than otheis. The BRIC
counties weie actually bieaking out of the olu economics. So theie aie some ieal leaueis in
the woilu. You might want to name moie of them if you have that infoimation. They tell us
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 1u
that if we uon't all join looking up, anu stop looking uown anu uigging stuff out of Nothei
Eaith, we may be left behinu by those who have chosen to look up.
=*>+"A Yes, exactly. 0n oui website we cite the Pew Founuation, which uiu a veiy goou
iepoit of the u2u countiies, anu which ones weie winning anu which ones weie losing the
iace to look up anu move to the solai economy. Biazil, Inuia anu China aie uoing gieat.
Koiea anu in the Euiopean aiea, wheie you get lots of clouus, still ueimany is a teiiific
winnei, which is totally amazing. The Scanuinavian countiies, the Netheilanus is uoing a
lot of goou woik. Biitain is the leauei in offshoie winu eneigy. It ieally pains me that my
beloveu auopteu countiy of the 0niteu States is still the laggaiu. Because we'ie still
involveu in what I wiote about in 23$ 9-(+#+:; -6 #3$ <-('& =%$. Wheie you've got all the
giiulock, tugging anu pulling between the incumbent fossil fuel anu nucleai powei
inuustiies, against the uisiuptive technologies of winu, solai, eneigy efficiency,
geotheimal, wave anu ocean technologies, algae giown on seawatei, wheie it looks like
we'll be getting oui aviation fuel. We'ie just getting left behinu; it's tiagic.
B*)#"C%A If I iecall coiiectly, when we hau oui fiist inteiview, you pointeu to }apan anu
the meltuown of theii nucleai inuustiy as being a huge incentive foi them to look up.
=*>+"A That shift is now well unuei way. They have such tiemenuous geotheimal
iesouices, just as Icelanu uoes. Theie's cities on the confluence of geotectonic plates. So
it's just a mattei of ieoiganizing things. Theie's nothing that's scaice, ieally. We just have
to ieoiganize oui thinking anu then we can ieaiiange the fuinituie to take auvantage of
the abunuant iesouices of oui biospheie, the living planet, the gieen plants. Anu those
abunuant photons coming in eveiy uay that uiive winu powei anu so on.
B*)#"C%A That's a beautiful segue foi us to thank you foi shaiing this incieuible insight. It
just inspiies anu enlivens me to think so abunuantly anu optimistically. I'u like to invite
Eiic in to help incluue some of oui listeneis in the uialogue.
?)#2 @)-(4A Bazel, you weie talking about the uieen Tiansition Scoieboaiu. Coulu you talk
moie about that.
=*>+"A Ceitainly. The uieen Tiansition Scoieboaiu. we hope it'll be up on the siues of
builuings all ovei the woilu, so people can see how we'ie >+""+"% the iace to the solai age.
Right now people can go to www.ethicalmaikets.com anu they can uownloau it, anu the
new iepoit that we just put out is on R&B. Companies now which show that they've got a
much ueepei knowleuge base because they aie now investing in gieen R&B, foi eneigy
efficiency anu ieuesigning piouucts.
This is the kinu of woik that }anine Benyus has been uoing foi many yeais, helping
companies ieuesign piouucts, ieuesign piouuction methous, in line with natuie's
piinciples. That means minimizing eneigy anu mateiial flows anu use; not cieating waste;
not using toxic substances. Boing most of theii manufactuiing at ioom tempeiatuie. This
is a big thing. We uon't neeu to buin things anymoie. We can uo those chemical ieactions
at ioom tempeiatuie. This is what we mean by opeiating with life's piinciples.
The new stanuaius that we'ie setting up with the Biomimiciy Institute foi ethical
biomimiciy investing will incluue all of those kinus of ciiteiia. Rathei than the olu
economic mouels about how much piofit they can make, anu how soon they can go public.
We, fiist of all, look at the science, anu what it is they'ie tiying to uo. Then we aggiegate all
of this infoimation in the uieen Tiansition Scoieboaiu, which maps these investments
since 2uu7. The cuiient numbei is $S.6 2&+((+-". So we know that the fossil fuel foices that
still funu membeis of Congiess. they'ie on the wiong siue of histoiy. Theie's a wall of
uieen money coming at them. So they might as well change, befoie they get oveiwhelmeu.
?)#2A Bow uoes the uieen economy connect with builuing paiauigms like "ciaule-to-ciaule"
that Bill NcBonough has put foiwaiu, in teims of these paiauigm shifts.
=*>+"A veiy similai. veiy similai to The Natuial Step, to Bill NcBonough anu Nichael
Biaungait's "Ciaule-to-Ciaule." In fact, Bill has been on the auvisoiy boaiu foi oui Calveit-
Benueison Quality of Life Inuicatois. We have Bill on oui Tv shows, talking about builuing
uesign. All of those Tv shows aie available any time at ethicalmaikets.tv. We love theii
woik. What we'ie tiying to uo is package up all of these uiffeient leainings, stanuaius,
insights, piinciples put out by vaiious people, anu actually ielate them to finance, uiiectly.
So that we engage the financial community heau-on. It's not a mattei of just having
piinciples floating out theie, which aie ieally nice. anu we like the iuea that a lot of
companies aie picking up on this. But unfoitunately, companies aie puppets of finance.
Shoulun't be that way. shoulu be the othei way aiounu. But as long as companies aie
puppets of finance, we have to go to finance uiiectly anu say, "Look, you'ie giving
companies the wiong signals, telling them to make money in the shoit-teim. You uon't
unueistanu that money is "-# wealth." This is why we cieateu this new Ethical Biomimiciy
Finance Initiative. So that we can begin going to biokeiages anu asset manageis uiiectly.
Anu hopefully leauing all of these othei effoits in thiough the uooi.
?)#2A Can you talk about "city well-being scoiecaius."
=*>+"A I got veiy inteiesteu when I moveu to this aiea, quite close to the city of
}acksonville, that a veiy goou sociologist, Naiilyn Chambeis, who's now ueceaseu, set
these }acksonville Quality Inuicatois foi Piogiess. At fiist they weie stienuously iesisteu,
to put it miluly, by the Chambei of Commeice, the business community, anu so on. 0f
couise now they embiace these quality-of-life inuicatois, because that's ieally the
auvantage cities have in attiacting goou woikeis, anu cieating the kinu of knowleuge base
that they neeu to be in this "woilu-city" league that theie is now. Theie's the "C-4u" that
mayoi Bloombeig set up. So it's absolutely necessaiy to look way beyonu the soit of
Chambei of Commeice view, anu see whethei a city is peuestiian-fiienuly, uesigns gieen
builuings, has highei uensity, has mass tiansit, iecycles all of its waste, anu making cities
moie caibon-neutial, fosteiing the enviionment iathei than exploiting it. Those aie the
kinus of inuicatois that cities neeu.
0ne just came to me touay, was in the aiea of avoiueu costs. When we look at exteinalizeu
costs, we also have to look at avoiueu costs; in othei woius, coulu a city uo something
bettei to avoiu the costs. This is the cost of violence. That woulu ielate to uiffeient
policies foi incaiceiation, ieciuivism, anu how coulu a city avoiu some of the costs of
ciime. So all of those things, ieally.
?)#2A As you talk about quality of life inuicatois, I want to uiaw this into oui integial
fiamewoik. We have oui "iight-hanu quauiants" looking at the "It," the outsiue. Then we
oui inteinal uimensions - the subjective - consciousness anu cultuie. I'm wonueiing how
uo quality-of-life inuicatois incluue cultuie anu consciousness.
=*>+"A I think the most auvanceu in that is the uioss National Bappiness inuicatois
uevelopeu by Bhutan. Theie the cultuie was specifically iecognizeu by the King. It's a
Buuuhist countiy, anu as we know, Buuuhists focus veiy much on how to be happy. So
these inuicatois aie cultuially veiy piecisely attuneu to that small Buuuhist countiy. The
eiioi comes when people tiy to extiapolate happiness to all the othei countiies. Theie is
an inuicatoi calleu the Bappy Planet Inuex which uoes attempt to uo this. The pioblem I
see with tiying to use happiness is how uifficult it is to uefine, anu how cultuially-baseu it
is. So that you have a lot of suiveys uone in vaiious countiies ovei the yeais, anu they'll
come to conclusions like, the Biazilians aie ieally happy people, anu the Russians aie
miseiable, anu stuff like that. Wheieas I piefei to use the teim "well-being," wheie you can
measuie actual outcomes anu wellness, anu well-being. That seems to be now what many
countiies aie choosing, like the Canauian Inuex of Well-being, the Biits aie following that
one. The 0ECB has theii new Bettei Life Inuex, anu the most impoitant thing was to uiop
macioeconomics.
The macioeconomic methou has been to tiy, as if you'ie flying ovei the countiy at Su,uuu
feet, to aggiegate all the apples anu oianges of these uiffeient aspects of each countiy, anu
the uiffeient metiics you neeu to use to unueistanu them. metiics of health, enviionment,
poveity gaps, cultuie, anu all of that. Anu tiy to put money coefficients on them, then
aggiegate it all up into one ieally uumb numbei, which is the uBP. The mouel we cieateu,
Calveit anu I, when we fiist launcheu it in 2uuu, was to uisaggiegate twelve key inuicatois,
incluuing health, enviionment, cultuie, housing, infiastiuctuie, eneigy, human iights, anu
all soits of things. Anu put them on a public website, as a uashboaiu. }ust like you woulu
have tiying to fly a plane, oi uiive a cai. Imagine if the only inuicatoi you hau was a fuel
piessuie gauge. We all know that if you'ie tiying to steei a vehicle, you neeu a whole iow
of inuicatois on youi uashboaiu. about youi altituue, anu all kinus of things like that. It
was a no-biainei, in oui thinking, to cieate a uashboaiu on a website. We still upuate that
iegulaily at calveit-henueison.com.
The 0ECB has followeu the same kinu of mouel now; they call it the Bettei Life Inuex. So
that people can inteiact with it. Anu figuie out how to soit of "ioll theii own." Because you
uo neeu to iespect cultuies, anu some countiies have uiffeient cultuial piioiities. When
we weie looking at vaiious inuicatois, we iealizeu, foi example, that in Bawaii they hau an
inuicatoi, which was soit of a ieu flag foi them, with theii local quality-of-life inuicatois,
on the sale of clocks. We all saiu, what on eaith is that about. They tolu us, look. we like
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 1S
the easy, slow lifestyle of Bawaii. Anu if too many people aie buying too many clocks anu
watches, that coulu uestioy one of the values of oui way of life.
Then we have a similai thing in the Noithwest 0niteu States, wheie salmon iuns aie veiy
impoitant. 0K, you neeu beuiock inuicatois, which aie compaiative acioss cultuies, like
life expectancy anu infant moitality, anu paits pei million of junk in the aii anu watei.
Then you neeu cultuially-ielative inuicatois like uioss National Bappiness in Bhutan, anu
the ones I just mentioneu.
?)#2A Thank you. Anothei question: all the majoi companies have theii "uieen" initiatives.
0nfoitunately, some of those involve "gieenwashing." What methous uo you use to call
alaim on gieenwashing anu biing piopei focus anu attention to effective sustainability
initiatives within laige companies.
=*>+"A veiy goou question. We aie acutely awaie of this. That's why at Ethical Naikets
Neuia, who aie also in Biazil, we uon't take auveitising unless it confoims to all of the
same socially iesponsible investing stanuaius of Calveit anu all of the othei scieeneu
poitfolios. Which means, opeiationally, in Ethical Naikets, we uon't have any auveitising.
Which is fine. Because most of the young companies in solai, winu, anu all, aie not big
enough yet, many of them, to even have tiaue associations. Let alone big maiketing
opeiations.
0ne of the ways I've ueciueu we coulu auuiess this, without clashing with the Fiist
Amenument, anu fieeuom of the piess, anu whatevei, woulu be to set up a caiiot foi
auveitiseis anu maiketeis, iathei than a stick. So I founueu the Ethic Naik awaiu foi
auveitising that lifts the human spiiit in society. We'ie now in oui sixth yeai of giving that
awaiu. We get the most amazing nominations, fiom all aiounu the woilu, of auveitising
campaigns that not only aie tiuthful, anu uon't get into gieenwashing, but actually uo
pioviue a social seivice, anu genuine euucation. So we'ie just about to announce oui
winneis foi this yeai, at the Sustainable Bianus Confeience in Lonuon, which takes place
at the enu of Novembei. We'ie announcing the finalists, which of couise I can't tell you
who they aie, at the "NoFest" Confeience anu uieen Expo, which is taking place in Los
Angeles 0ctobei 1S-17. We uo neeu to call auveitising anu coipoiate public ielations to
task anu make suie that auveitising uoesn't gieenwash what's ieally going on. We also
neeu to ieminu auveitiseis who funu oui commeicial meuia that they aie ieally one of the
most impoitant eithei euucation oi mis-euucation functions of the society. As well as
what Thomas }effeison thought; that they weie the most impoitant pait of oui uemociacy.
To make suie the voteis weie ieally euucateu, iathei than mis-euucateu.
I uesigneu that awaiu, anu initially funueu it with a bequest I hau fiom one of my ielatives
in Biitain. It's one way of beginning to at least iaise the bai on auveitiseis, anu telling
them that we aie watching them.
?)#2A Can you say fiom last yeai any examples.
=*>+"A We gave the awaiu in 2u1u, foi example, to Annie Leonaiu anu 23$ <#-&, -6 <#?66,
anu the Fiee Range Stuuios. Annie Leonaiu is one of oui most favoiite people. She's uoing
one now on Citizens 0niteu, anu she's just amazing. So she was the peifect example. A veiy
eaily one we uiu was a campaign by a founuation which I think now no longei exists. It
was a meuia campaign on toleiance anu foigiveness. It was just so beautiful. So we
thought, well, we'll stait off with that one, anu ieally set the bai high.
Last yeai, one of the winneis in the commeicial categoiy, the foi-piofit categoiy, was
Libeity Nutual Insuiance. We ieally loveu theii campaign on iesponsibility. You'ie
piobably awaie of theii aus. what's youi iesponsibility. What's youi policy. We'ie
keeping up a veiy high stanuaiu, anu we aie getting attention now. I'm just hoping that
this will continue to engage the auveitising, PR anu maiketing with these big companies,
so that they know they ieally can't get away with gieenwashing.
?)#2A This has been a veiy iich exchange, anu I want to give oui live paiticipants a chance
to lean into some of this a little bit moie. I want to ciicle back aiounu to something you
biought up at the veiy beginning. I ieally loveu that notion of being a global acupunctuiist,
looking foi those places to inteiject something that's going to have a significant effect
uownstieam in the system. As I put people into some smallei gioups foi some uiscussion
aiounu that question, I want to have you speak biiefly to have that notion of how uo we
stait shifting oui lens. We'ie talking about a paiauigm shift. As you go about looking foi
changes anu places wheie youi input can have a lot of leveiage, what's that minuset shift.
=*>+"A I think I was veiy much auvantageu by biing biought up by two stiict atheists.
Because you leain to question eveiything that you'ie tolu, fiom a veiy veiy eaily age, anu
you leain to fall back on tiying to unueistanu, "what is my puipose." Beie I am,
expeiiencing myself on this beautiful planet, what am I supposeu to be uoing heie. What's
my puipose. As I began to ask those questions as a teenagei, I iealizeu that this wonueiful
thing I have in my heau, my biain, I have this ability to pull back, just like a Tv cameia. Pull
back anu take a wiue shot, anu see myself as a membei of the human family, living on this
little planet, ciicling oui mothei stai, the Sun. Then I also have this amazing ability to
zoom iight in anu look at whatevei paiticulai aspect of this I want to look at. Whethei it's
looking at what's wiong with economics, oi how cities coulu be ieuesigneu. I imagine
myself as an extia-teiiestiial. I was thinking, 0K, I'm coming in foi a lanuing on planet
Eaith, anu I see all of these humans, anu they all seem to have these little boxes on wheels
that they lovingly stioke, that take them aiounu. I uiun't know they weie calleu
automobiles. They seemeu to be moie impoitant to people than actually places wheie
they as human oiganisms coulu get aiounu. That kinu of thinking, wheie you zoom in, anu
you examine eveiy aspect of youi society as if you weie an extia-teiiestiial, just coming to
visit. Then you can go back anu foith, fiom that huge, wiue shot of being an extia-
teiiestiial, uown to looking at the most minute uetail. So we all have that wonueiful ability
- the zoom lens, anu the wiue shot. So we just neeu to leain how to use it.
?)#2A That's a gieat way to move people into uiscussion gioups. "With youi global
acupunctuiist hat on, wheie can you inseit youiself to have magnificent effects on youi
city. |In gioups foi 12 minutes.j
Integial City eLab Septembei 27, 2u12 1S
?)#2A So Bazel anu Naiilyn, what's been going on in the uiscussion gioups that you've
listeneu to.
=*>+"A I enjoyeu listening to a gentleman fiom Amsteiuam oi the Netheilanus, anu I
wanteu to tell him that goou fiienus of mine aie meeting at a book launching, of a book I
uiu the foiwaiu to, anu actually helpeu the authoi, a veiy lovely Butch guy, wiite, calleu
Louis Bohtlingk, anu the book is calleu 7'&$ #- *'&$. It's being launcheu in Ben Baag, anu
also Amsteiuam. If you senu me an email, I'll connect you with the people who aie going to
be theie, because I think you'll ieally enjoy it.
0ui fiienu in Canaua was talking about humoi. This, I think is a wonueiful way to connect
the uots. I pointeu out to him that theie's a PhB economist, who teaches economics, but
also on the siue has a vauueville show calleu the "Stanu-up Economist." Be's been going all
ovei the woilu making people ioai with laughtei about what's wiong with economics.
This is much moie fun than to take it all too seiiously. To iealize we can change the iules.
We can change the scoiecaiu. Anu let's have some fun uoing it.
B*)#"C%A Anu theie's no shoitage of mateiial foi a stanu-up comic in this aiea.
=*>+"A Right! You'll finu a link to him on oui website. We have, on ethicalmaikets.tv, othei
comeuians talking about finance. It's hilaiious!
B*)#"C%A Thank you foi that connection, Bazel, anu foi it being iaiseu by one of the people
in youi gioup. The one I was listening to actually hau some people who knew about
acupunctuie. At least one peison iuentifieu what happens when you use acupunctuie as a
healing iesponse. It means that you can have a fiist wave of new connections, but then you
can also have the status quo stait to ieact against it, in kinu of a panic. Someone else askeu
how uo you stay in the thick of things, when it's not always positive. Theie was a wise
iesponse talking about, well, you neeu to know how to look aftei youiself. So theie's
something ielateu to self-caie, so that you can then be theie to look aftei otheis. 0sing
suppoit gioups is a ieally goou way to uo that.
Anothei insight was, sometimes it's not the iight time. You've actually hit the iight
acupunctuie place, but it isn't the iight time foi the system. You might have to come back
to it latei; you wait until the system itself to peicolate thiough. You uiu hit something, but
it's just not able to iesponu at this point in time.
=*>+"A That's such an impoitant insight, Naiilyn. I foigot to mention that. Looking at the
time uimension is so impoitant. You can have youi map of all these inteiacting global
systems, anu you have to always iemembei when not only to iuentify the system, the
acupunctuie point that might be a peifect inteivention, but the timing. The way I visualize
this is that I have this cook stove, anu I've got all these pots on the cook stove, simmeiing
away. I know that eveiy moining I look at all those pots, anu say, well, put those on the
back buinei, theie's nothing happening theie. Then one of them, I'll finu, oh, I can tuin
that one up; that's ieally ieauy to cook. So you uon't oveibuiuen youiself, because you
iealize you uon't have to woiiy, theie's piobably on any given uay only one pot that it's
woith paying attention to. }ust let the otheis go on the back buinei. So you uon't buin out,
anu you also watch that time uimension.
B*)#"C%A I think that's wise auvice, Bazel, anu this ielates to anothei comment wheie
somebouy saiu they uiun't know much about acupunctuie, anu always ielateu it to simply
ieleasing eneigy in the system. I, myself, have useu acupunctuie a lot in my health anu
self-caie, anu I actually uiu use the metaphoi in my book, as well. I know that acupunctuie
isn't always about ieleasing eneigy. Sometimes it's about focusing eneigy on one spot. If
you think about the cook stove as a metaphoi foi the whole system, theie aie many pots
on those buineis. Those aie the acupunctuie noues. Some of them, in oiuei foi them to be
biought to the gieatest stiength oi well-being, they neeu to be on a low heat. 0theis
actually neeu to be tuineu up, so the heat is focuseu anu biought up so it can actually
inteiact with otheis. It's actually a veiy stiong caiing system that has been uevelopeu in
Asia, that a lot of the Westein woilu is not veiy familiai with yet. Even the iuea of having
this kinu of balancing, oi wellness is a veiy stiong metaphoi that this gioup was actually
playing with.
Bazel, I want to thank you foi giving us that stiong metaphoi, anu that iuea foi taking it
foiwaiu into the bieakout gioups, because it actually was a stiong insight anu intuition
that enableu them to ieally look at some new paiauigms of the city, new places that they
might be able to quicken foi action in the city. Anu this last point about it being the iight
time. I was looking at all of oui piesenteis foi the confeience, paiticulaily about youiself
anu the othei thought leaueis, anu I woke up the othei uay thinking, you know, many of
you have been woiking foi foity yeais in the ueseit, anu now you've come out with all this
manna, anu finally the iest of the woilu is willing to listen, anu in some places, to actually
take you up on youi offeis. I want to thank you paiticulaily touay foi biinging youi ueep
wisuom about navigating intelligence, anu youi wonueiful, piactical expeiience about
how this can actually be able to assist anu nuituie the well-being of cities. So thank you,
Bazel.
=*>+"A Thank you, anu goou luck to eveiybouy.

1
Dots
What and where are we implementing navigating intelligence?
Speakers: John Purkis and Gatan Royer
September 20, 2012
John Purkis is a sustainability expert, facilitator and systems change
specialist who works with municipal governments and other organizations
to create and implement bold visions for a sustainable future. Most recently
he co-authored, Embedding Sustainability into the Culture of Municipal
Government and is working on a new Sustainable Neighbourhood Action
Planning Guide. He has delivered numerous presentations and workshops
and facilitates transformational change process with organizations in
Canada and internationally. John has worked with clients such as Ramsay Community
Association, Ste Anne de Bellevue, City of Edmonton, City of Ottawa, City of Saskatoon, City
of Halifax, City of Airdrie, Town of Lacombe, Town of Markham, Green British Virgin
Islands, Abu Dhabi department of municipal Affairs, Halifax Shambhala Centre and many
others. Prior to joining The Natural Step Canada, John worked with the Federation of
Canadian Municipalities (FCM), where he helped the FCM lay the foundation for their
Capacity Building Program and worked as the Development Manager for the FCM Green
Municipal Fund. John holds a BSc in Environmental Science from Brock University and a
graduate degree in business from Concordia University. He has also received training in
Dialogue Education, Facilitation, Spiral Dynamics, and transformation change processes.
Gatan Royer serves on the Board of Directors of the Pacific Parklands
Foundation in his capacity as the Department Manager responsible for
Metro Vancouver Regional Parks. Gatans love of everything urban brought
him to hundreds of cities in 30 countries. An architect and urban planner
originally from Qubec City, he also served as Base Engineer at Canadas
largest Air Base. He received the Governor General's Meritorious Service
Medal for his humanitarian work as a peacekeeper in Sarajevo. Through his
book, Time for Cities, and speaking engagements across Canada, Gatan Royer is a
passionate advocate for better cities.
David Faber: Our question today is really framed around what does designing for
navigating intelligences contribute to city design? It is based upon the three principals of
navigating intelligences as described by Dr. Marilyn Hamilton. The first was: select the
future destination of the city based on its vision. Gatan, can you share with us your
experiences in designing for navigating intelligence?
Gatan Royer: I can probably share a couple of experiences. One is something I can
actually point to outcomes. That is the fairly extensive development of a walk-able
complete community in the City of Port Moody which is a close suburb of Vancouver,
British Columbia. The other example is a work in progress. It is the Regional Growth
Strategy. It is connected to the eco-region aspect of the thoughts that Marilyn [Hamilton]
has brought out to all of us in her book.
I would like to start out with Port Moody. What we set out to do in Port Moody - a fairly
typical suburb with some multi-family components to it some isolated buildings
apartment buildings that were in the city. The vision that was put together entailed
basically creating a completely different community. There are a number of factors that
came into play: a new mayor from Italy, Joe Trasolini with exposure to other more
sustainable forms of development, myself, and a number of other players. Together we
brought the ability to explain to the public the kind of future that could be created.
To make a long story short, the city was pretty much transformed. A portion of the city
was transformed with the establishment of a very high density concentration of buildings
and plazas and a walk-able environment. That was basically a turnaround for the city. Port
Moody experienced a very significant amount of growth which led to investments in
quality buildings and a very pedestrian focused type of environment was created. The
acceptance of that kind of investment was very difficult. But if you can imagine, we turned
a community that had a minority of multi-family buildings into one where two thirds of
the community now lives in multifamily buildings, in apartments, condo towers, office
buildings and commercial investments. This creates a new village which is highly
sustainable much more sustainable than the typical sprawling suburbs. So maybe I can
pause and see if I can get some reaction from you. Would you prefer for me to just
continue along?
David Faber: Gatan I am familiar with the inter-strategic planning process of Port
Moody. I am just looking at their five pillars that this on. Their strategic plan looks at the
renewal in 2012 so just recently. The five pillars focused on communications to inform
and engage the community, excellence in service delivery, planning for the future as you
were talking about, economic development, and the fifth of nurturing community. From a
walk-ability standpoint, I see that connection to exactly what you were talking about. How
have these changes been received by the community?
Gatan Royer: The chances have been readily accepted. It took obviously there was
some nimbyism there was some reaction to the introduction of towers. But the first few
interventions (the first few buildings) had the kind of quality that basically explained the
vision in more real terms for people. They could walk over and see that we were not
messing up the city. The first investments were about 14 or 15 years ago and it progressed
quite rapidly in terms of creating this core of buildings. The people moving in brought new
energy to the city. One of the things that took place though, was that all of this created a
fairly large demand on other services which were regional in nature. And I will use that to
bridge to talk about regional planning.
There was a disconnect between the pace of investment in the heart of this new portion of
Port Moody and the regional infrastructure for transportation. Port Moody had been
promised the rapid transit within the city. All of this was being built around future rapid
transit station. What took place is at one point and this is probably three years ago
now the community started to say, well we like what we see, we like the qua;ity of
environment you are building, we like the type of community living that is being created,
the vibrancy of Newport Village. (By then there was The Suter Brook as well as the
Klahanie development. All three developments were very clustered together).
People liked it, but they said, Enough now. We want this rapid transit to come to us. We
want these promises fulfilled because of the traffic congestion created by all these
residences moving in. About 10,000 people moved in this fairly small area quite rapidly in
the space of about 11 years. So the community said, Stop. Stop investing. Lets put our
official community plan on hold until transit comes to us. This was three years ago. Now
transit is being built. Contracts have been awarded. The services that the region is going to
provide are going to allow the community to capitalize on the beauty of the plan. They are
not only going to be a walk-able community within, but they are now going to have access
when the community finally opens. They are going to be able to walk to that Skytrain
station. I suspect, and I know from some of my friends and people I have talked to in the
community, that some people are looking forward to a reduced reliance on cars and a
reduce reliance on fossil fuels to move around. Some of the families there are going to go
down to only one car or forego car ownership entirely.
David Faber: That is fantastic to hear and it is really clear to me in the way that you
described that that Port Moody has established a clear vision. It is not only for City Council,
but it sounds like they are working very closely with their citizens and are now moving
towards that. The second principle in navigating intelligences around the integral
indicators is using the indicators of the well being of the city as a feedback mechanism.
Has that been used? Has there been any exploration? Are you actually seeing any change
in the way that people fell about living in the city or their commute time or whatever the
case may be?
Gatan Royer: There has been a measurable shift in the number of pedestrian trips in
that core area. There has been a dramatic increase in the use of the public amenities. The
public library has been counting the number of visits and they have gone through the roof
with regards to more people having direct access, being able to walk over to the library.
We doubled the size of the recreation centre. At the outset when financial decisions were
being made to create this much larger community centre the fear was that the numbers
didnt justify the size of investment. There was a lot of debate whether or not some of the
rooms should be smaller. Some of the projections were perhaps not going to be
materializing. What has happened is now is that people wish the recreation centre was
built bigger because the projections exceeded all expectations. There is a lot more
utilization of those sources. And that promotes the health of the community. A lot of that
has to do with access. The fact the people can just jog down the street walk across the
street and access these services.
David Faber: So in a way it becomes a centralized or more accessible to everyone that is
using [the public facilities]. How are you communicating back to residents? Is there a
follow up with them as they are going through this? You mentioned it has been 15 years in
terms of moving forward with all of this. During that time is there a way of communicating
back to them about the program and what people are saying?
Gatan Royer: As you know, I am no longer City Manager at the City of Port Moody. Ive
moved on. When I was there, along with mayor and council, we were telling the story of
this development. We were telling the story in a way that brought it to people so they
understood what was being done. The story is very simple. We were going to grow. Port
Moody was supposed to grow in the same way it had done previously with large
subdivisions of single family homes creeping up the mountain on the north shore of Port
Moody.
That land belonged to the city was turned into a park. It was dedicated as a park. So the
community moved away from traditional development and to be able sustain itself and
continue to grow and continue to prosper in what was a shift from sprawling density into
a concentrated area that was well serviced. And that is the area where New Port Village
stands today where the Suter Brook development stands today. That is the area where
there is about a dozen residential towers and a large number of four storey apartment
buildings and this incredible vitality of shops and services that have been built at the
ground floor of all these buildings. So we have told that story. We have told the story of we
are protecting the environment over here. The offset is to invest in more density
elsewhere and we are going to do it with as much concern for quality as possible. The
other story that we told repeatedly is that the politicians had the courage to say no to
developers. Developers initially looked at and Official Community Plan that had a
significant amount of density and proposed things that didnt meet the quality that we
were looking for. So the South Brook development is one where three developers in row
have broke their teeth in proposing things that were below the standard that we had set.
One proposed a bit of a strip mall with isolated condos. The other proposed something
that was lower than we were aiming for. So we waited until the development that suited
our vision. And that is hard to do for politicians. When someone comes in and says we are
going to invest and this is a development that is going to be worth about $100 million. We
are going to increase the amount of tax revenue by x. It is very hard to say no. It is
important that communities do say no to substandard development.
I look around me when I travel around the region. (I have regional responsibilities now).
There are so many buildings that are 15-20 years old that are being torn down to make
room for something else because they were very short-term, short-sighted intervention
and investments that made some people enough money to warrant investment, but
certainly dont meet the needs of the community in the long term. That kind of waste I
think is something that politicians have to have the courage to forego and wait for the
right investment.
David Faber: I have to say that kind of connects to me personally. I know it is a very
difficult situation as you said when you have pressures of taxation levels and value of
municipal tax dollars. You have a whole dialogue around what it means in terms of
economic development in terms of having more taxation. What I find very refreshing in
this case is that there was and accountability to the vision. That direction was being set.
People were able to stand up as you said in what was probably a very difficult situation to
do. But they said no this is our vision as a community and its so important to us that we
establish these things. I did have the opportunity to read your book A Time for Cities. I
know there is a reference when you talk about in 2004 that Canadians cities received
$0.12 out of every tax dollar. And when you did the calculation in 2010 it was down to
$0.08. So you have this increasing pressure to generate revenue. Yet at the same time you
need to follow the vision of what is important for us in the community. How do you find
that balance? That pull back and forth?
Gatan Royer: It is very difficult. I think the challenge of taxation being disconnected
from responsibilities that are being increasingly given to the municipalities. That
disconnect is profound. That disconnect is holding communities back. I certainly think that
there is going to be continuing advocacy to change that. Politicians in this region are
positioning the resources as a key issue. The distribution of power between levels of
government is almost as important as the distribution of resources. Its not at all about
money it is about autonomy within regions and municipalities. Autonomy to do the things
that the public is demanding be done for them. So there is a continuing challenge.
What I think I should probably do is brush a little bit over the Regional Growth Strategy
and tie the Port Moody experience to what we are trying to implement from a regional
perspective now. We created a document that is going to help this region channel growth
in a way that we think is going to make the region much more sustainable in the long term.
There are goals that have been set that are meshed together. That is the creation of a
compact urban area.
The Regional Growth Strategy used words very deliberately. That new Regional Growth
Strategy creates an urban containment boundary. There is the word container there.
There is a boundary that has been drawn around urbanized areas in the region that is
designed or meant to contain growth and to prevent growth from spilling outside of that
containment boundary. That is going to be very much a challenge because it is a 30 year
plan. So that is trying to say that we already know where all the growth is going to go and
a lot of it is going to be infill and increased densification of existing urbanized areas.
There is a goal to support a sustainable economy, to create a relationship between the
land base transportation systems and the employment that creates a healthy economy
that allows people to at least maintain the standard of living they have and hopefully
prosper. The protection of the environment is obviously tied very closely to this urban
containment boundary. We do have green space that is precious and needs to be protected
as well as wetlands and so forth and so on. So those areas have been identified. The
development of complete communities, the Regional Growth Strategy calls for most of the
growth to take place not only within the urban containment boundary but within town
centers. So they are going to be designed to provide all the services that people require; to
reduce their reliance on transportation, even public transportation. Shifting the mode of
transport from the automobile to public transit as well as walking and biking.
There is a measurable difference between various parts of the region. I have statistics in
front of me that show that 60 per cent of the trips within downtown Vancouver, so that is
60% of the point A to point B travel is by bike, walking or transit and only 40 per cent by
car. That is pretty phenomenal compared to other places. The typical suburban business
park has only 10 per cent of trips by bike; walking or transit and 90 per cent are going to
be by automobile. Then you have the in between areas that are starting to become more
urbanized density is increasing. Metrotown for example, has a 40-60 split. Forty per cent
of the trips are by bicycle, transit and walking. Planning does make an incredible
difference. The kinds of decisions that we make today are going to make an incredible
difference in the future when you look at the margin from a 90 to10 split to 60/40. This is
not just a tweaking adjusting the mode shift it is a dramatic difference if we can create
it in the long term.
David Faber: Thank you Gatan. I very much agree that that shift from 60-40 is massive. I
think of my own municipality, Edmonton. As a city we are sitting at 90 per cent vehicle: 10
per cent walking and public transit which is the active modes of transportation. To see
such a shift will make a huge difference; not only in terms of peoples time but also in
terms of their personal health.
I would like to shift over to John and bring John into the conversation if I may. With your
experiences across so many municipalities as well, could share with us the direction
setting that you have gone through.
John Purkis: The work that I have the utmost pleasure in doing is to wake up every day
and come to work to help others work towards creating a more sustainable better world
for everyone. I have been doing this for many years as you mentioned in your intro. The
long term planning has been something of a passion of mine. You mentioned earlier about
FCM where I spent some time getting funding allocated for the planning category of the
Green Fund which didnt exist in the first iteration. For those who are listening, this fund
has been instrumental in financing a number of really innovative municipal planning and
infrastructure initiates right across the country. So coming on almost ten years later it is
amazing to hear stories like the one from Port Moody.
The work that I do with the Natural Step Canada is to help organizations. We work with
everyone from multi-nationals to municipal governments. My specialty is more with
municipal governments to help them to bring this concept of sustainability into their
organizational DNA and their community DNA. And to create a common language that is
used to create a new vision and direction for that community. So similar to what was
mentioned earlier by Gatan, we spend a lot of time working with groups of people. Most
of these people, who would sit on the spiral, from a spiral dynamics perspective. We
engage them to come up and shape a new vision of the world. So that is what we refer to a
back casting. That is a fancy way of saying planning with the end in mind. We all do this
very naturally, but in groups larger than five we are kind of hopeless at it. So with this
back casting approach, the difference in it compared to some of the other processes like
selecting the future destination of the city, is that it is informed by the Natural Step System
Commissions or sustainability objectives. They act as a science based definition of what
sustainability is from a systems perspective. We look at sustainability from the highest
level. What is required to maintain life supporting system on earth? To maintain our
environment? From there what we do is we infuse that language in an organization so it
becomes part of the culture and part of how they are making decisions. And that is
something that we work on on a regular basis. The process itself leads to a new long term
system plan for a city, town or municipality. That plan is slowly over time brought into the
organizational culture depending on how far advance that organization really is, how
much support there is.
The part of the process that gets back to the navigating intelligences is that it does include
the formation of indicators. The city that we have been involved with the longest, with
regard to monitoring of indicators based on their long term plan, has been the resort
municipality of Whistler. It is one of probably 100 communities we have worked with in
Canada and internationally. Those indicators are something they report on in a very open
and transparent way. At the end of the day residential affordability is either increasing or
decreasing. Green house gases and energy consumption are either decreasing or
increasing. So that transparency and openness is very important in the planning process
as well.
The next thing Ill say too is that the plans, although they are long term high level
sustainable community plans are facilitated by the city or town, they are actually
implemented by, and must be implemented by everyone in the community. It is not good
enough for the planning department to really integrate this type of thinking into
densification, how they plan the city. But, residents have a role to play too the behavior
change and the moving up the spiral from the spiral dynamics or integral perspective.
People are much more willing to bring their bicycle out if they understand the
implications and engagement at the public level and with businesses and in helping them
understand their role in working toward a sustainable future is fundamental in successful
implementation of these plans. I am going to pause there because I could spend the next
20 minutes talking about this stuff. I find it really exciting to me. I will pause there to see if
you have any specific questions or if you would like me to share a more specific example
of this approach.
David Faber: One of the questions I have for you and then moving over to Gatan is that
as those indicators you were mentioning measure and are being reported one of the
questions I had in the past is how are those embedded into financial decisions or the
decision making of city council. Are measure that are communicated out but are not being
brought into that financial decision making process early enough to influence the
decisions that are then being made.
John Purkis: Interestingly, we were just conducting a national survey for Infrastructure
Canada. Looking at how communities are making infrastructure decisions based on their
long term plan. There is lots of good stuff to share there. I will share example that I am
familiar with so I dont get in trouble from Infrastructure Canada. Before that, I wanted to
make one note on indicators. I think there is perhaps an unhealthy focus on the
importance of indicators. To me indicators are really sign post along the journey to
sustainable future. In many cases the indictors dont add up to a clear description of
success. If you are tracking an indicator to becoming less bad then you had hoped five
years ago that is not necessarily an indicator that will move you towards a more
sustainable future. So the way the indicators are created really determines how useful
they are when it comes to financial decision making. They are either created in a way that
can be weighed into decision making or they are swept aside.
One of the best examples, I am going back to Whistler on this because they have been at
this a long time. In their case, they have a detailed assessment tool which they use for
assessing infrastructure project. They use that tool for every infrastructure decision.
Every infrastructure decision loops back to their long term plan. So they are building a
detailed assessment to check in and assess how a project will or wont move them forward
for the sustainability plan.
In their case, one of the examples is natural gas pipeline they were looking at installing.
Originally they received their energy from propane that was shipped up on the rail line.
They were face with a decision because they reached capacity to either expand their
storage capacity for propane locally or switch to a new technology. They talked to their
supplier: Terasen Gas. They have created their sustainability plan at this point with very
broad community consultation both with residence and businesses. This is a plan that
Council has to implement. It doesnt matter who is the Council. Councilors might change,
mayors might change, but this is the role of the community. They were able to use that
plan to clearly articulate that they wanted to work towards renewable energy and using
100 per cent renewable energy in the future.
So when Terasen came back and was going to lock them in to natural gas for a 50 year
contract, they were able to say very loud and clear that that was not going to move us
towards our sustainable future. That is not a flexible platform that we can build off. It does
not provide a good return on investment. So they said thank you very much. That is not
going to work. So they used those three questions that I just touched on. Does this decision
move us towards our description of success? Is this a flexible platform? By that I mean
that we are not going to get to sustainability in one step. So we invest in the pipeline, and
we are stuck with natural gas for 10 or 20 years to transition into a renewable energy
source. Finally, does it provide a good return on investment? We cant make all these
sustainability decisions in one foul swoop. There has to be good financial, political and
social return on this decision.
So those three questions are at the heart of all the assessment tools that we have helped
other cities, communities and businesses like Nike develop to help their staff assess
decisions that they are making.
David Faber: I wonder John, just as a follow up to that, hot do the Natural Step indicators
compare to other systems or other indicators. I know sometimes the illusive thing here
seems to be to find either leading or falling indicators and being able to identify ones that
capture across the qualitative and quantitative indicators. How do they compare to other
indicators IMB Smart Cities or other indicators out there?
John Purkis: I think there is a level of comparability between them. By that I mean that
they are not totally foreign. But they are not seen as an end state. If we are saying what the
system conditions or the sustainability objective of the Natural Step framework say is that
we are going to be honest about the direction that we need to go (and I should mention it
is a fairly bold direction). In order for us to minimize or reduce our impact on the
destruction of our ecology; the increasing production and accumulation of toxic
substances, of manmade chemicals that are showing up in breast milk and in northern
parts of Canada where those chemical dont even exist. They are brought up there by a
conveyor belt. So in order for us to understand and fully address those things, we need to
have a very clear and honest description of what we pass out. So we start with that. And
then the indicators really vary. There is some flexibility where there might be an indicator
saying we are going to move towards a 50 per cent reduction in our greenhouse gases.
Ultimately we are looking at 100 per cent reduction. Success is 100 per cent.
As interface and more and more cities are looking at, they are looking at ways of getting
off oil. Not using less of it. The transition strategy and the perhaps indicators identify that
it will take 10 years of using less and less. But ultimately they are very clear about the
direction that they are heading in. So the difference is really in that perspective. Where a
lot of the indicators are seen as end state goals; if we reach this indicator we are successful.
This is not the case for most of the indicators I have seen.
David Faber: What goes far beyond this, you had mentioned the future state that you
want to get to. For myself personally, I use the language outcome for that. What is the
decision you are making, moving you towards that outcome that you are trying to achieve?
And then you mentioned indicators that allow you to tell how you are actually performing.
It sounds like you are just describing establishing targets for those indicators. Saying this
is where we would like to go to in a certain amount of time. In the long range we would
like to get to here. Is that fair to say?

John Purkis: Yes, I think that is a fair description. They are targets that move towards a
specific indicator. I guess the difference is that even some of the indicators or some of the
targets that have been created still are not bold enough from my perspective. I was trying
to really differentiate between having a clear description of success or, having a clear set
of successful outcomes versus the incremental change that we are accustom to seeing.
One other example that might be familiar to some is LEED as a rating system. It is a
fantastic system set up down in states that found its way into Canada. That system is great.
And if you can compare it to a new system developed by the same people down at the
Green Building Council called the Living Building Challenge. The difference between the
two is that LEED has all the specific targets and numbers that you are working towards.
But they are based on an incremental change approach. They are based on making small
changes. As opposed to the living building challenge of which there are a few of those
building in Canada now. That challenge very boldly states what a truly successful and
sustainable outcome is. It is based on that back casting approach as opposed to that
incremental change that is associated in more of the plans that I have seen out there.
David Faber: This connects me back to Gatan actually. I am wondering if you can speak
towards your experience with this. In terms of indicators and the information that is
available out there. And how you have seen that practically applied in different
municipalities that you have worked within.
Gaetan Royer: I think one of the characteristic I was listening to what John was
saying. One of the characteristics that I see recently is that there are very dramatic shifts
that are taking place. Ill give you an example. We work very closely here with Translink
[Vancouver, British Columbia Public Transit System] trying to connect land use with
transportation planning. The best transportation plan is a good land use plan. Those two
things are closely connected. Translink is experiencing a very dramatic impact on their
budget and their ability to deliver the services they want to delivery because of a very
dramatic shift that is taking place recently in the fuel consumption. This is something that
has been changing incrementally by very small single digit percentage points over the past
decades. Now there has been shortfall of over $114 million in their budget because of fuel
consumption having decreased very rapidly and significantly this year.
Personally, I bought an electric car a year ago. The last time I gassed up was May of this
year. And I commute every day. So I have been able to make this very dramatic shift in my
personal ecological footprint with my carbon fossil fuel consumption. Obviously I am not
single handedly responsible for this $114 million dollar shortfall in Translinks revenues.
Those impacts are taking place and we are seeing those happening naturally with very
dramatically changes weather patterns. I think increasingly we are going to have to have
very, very good indicators. Indicators that are refined to the point that we can spot trends
taking place more quickly than we have in the place. And you are going to have to have
very flexible plans within a very rigid framework of unwavering vision as to what are the
goals you are trying to achieve. What I see for the future is this need to make our vision
more rigid to crystallize it for the public. And if it is sustainability or other components of
whatever the community wants to do, but to crystallize it and then have very flexible plans
that will still be allowing you to reach those plans even if the society around you is
changing rapidly. And the indicators are swinging more wildly than they have in the past.
David Faber: I wanted build on to that as well. I think that has been a real challenge as
you have noted in term of maintaining clarity of what is the vision. And being about to
certainly from my experience. to be able to go beyond the three or four year council or
mayoral term. That can certainly be achieved if you have the same mayor or a solid set of
councilors who are in over a longer set of time. But if there is a lot of turnover it is always
interesting to see how far that vision is maintained. It is continuing to go out there. Are the
citizens having that input into the vision? And are they starting to describe clearly what
they are looking for as well. There is almost an educational process that happens with this.
In my personal work we had gone through a public consultation process and we very
intentionally brought people together form all sorts of different demographics and
backgrounds and asked them these questions. We invited our city councilors and mayor to
be part of the dialogue process over a two month period.
It was amazing that at the beginning of the sessions that we were holding there was a real
focus on reduced taxes why cant you just cut the fat out of the system. And then by the
end of the conversation it was very much a focus on, I didnt realize the City had to do so
much and it is difficult to spread around what little it has. Then the conversation started to
focus on what can we do that perhaps does not require property taxes to go up? Are there
different incentives or ways we can start to shift whatever they do within their community
or within their city to that vision? To me that speaks very much to what you were saying
about crystallizing that vision. That people know there actually is a vision, there is
direction and that there is a way to continue to provide that input into it. When people
actually see it and understand it there tends to be quite a shift. Our focus when you look at
strategic planning is that they are very technical. They are very legalese or bureaucratic if
you will. They are not in plain English in language. People are lost in it and walk away
from it. What I see and in what you did in Port Moody was that that language was simple.
Taking a look at some of the work that was done - it kept it real for people and tangible. I
expect that was not an easy thing to do. I am wondering John if you can elaborate further
on that on what you have seen different municipalities to do crystallize that vision.
John Purkis: Yes to me I think the interesting things comes down to how do you engage
members of the community? Business partners, other non-profits in creating that vision? I
have seen a number of municipalities across the country have very nice visions, very nice
goals, very nice indicators which were prepared by a consultant. And the community has
no interest in being involved because they were not involved in creating it. So they are not
going to help implement it. So I think first and foremost having the process of creating
these types of plans is really important. It is the same thing on the corporate side if you
engage your stakeholders and staff internally, then you get the support and buy in when it
becomes time to make the tough decisions. So first and foremost actually involving people
in a meaningful way to help shape and create vision is fundamental. They way that we do
that we use and Im sure it is consistent with many of the consultation processes that
other communities have put in place And I know that in Port Moody this was also done.
But we hold a variety of sessions to actually engage people. So it isnt just a quick come
meet us on Saturday and tell us what you think. We need to meet people where they are at,
in their homes, through hosting caf dialogues.
There is a whole variety of techniques that can be put in place to begin to have a real new
and honest conversation about shaping that vision. I cant stress how important that is.
Because at the end of the day, when people see that final document, they can more clearly
understand it and also the challenges that the municipality has from the financial and
decision making perspective with limited budgets and crumbling infrastructure. And then
thirdly, as you mentioned they begin to see their role in it. They have role to play and they
can make decision at home. In Alberta we have used our Develop Sustainability at Home
Guidebook that was born in Alberta and Canada and has moved around the world
everywhere from Italy to Japan to a number of places in Europe. And that really helps
clarify the role of people. They can take their bicycles. There are a whole bunch of little
things that they can do and individuals. So involving a spectrum of people and making
sure the plan has actions for the partners, for resident and for the municipalities is critical.
Or the municipality is going to be on the hook to try and implement everything which is
impossible.
The second trend I see also happens to be here in Alberta. It happens in Vancouver and its
happening all across the country. I am just a little more engaged here. Citizens are starting
to want to have a little bit more power. We talked earlier about transferring power or
sharing power. I know that there are a number of councils now that are trying to come up
with ways to allow neighbourhood associations to become more involved in shaping their
future of the city. So that new trend that we are seeing and we are actually developing a
new guidebook here in Alberta on neighbourhood planning with the City of Calgary. So it
is wonderful to see that because people really do want to have more say in how their
neighborhoods and communities are unpacked. How they emerge to meet the goals and
visions that have been set.
David Faber: John you briefly mentioned Calgary in Alberta, Canada. Where are the cities
around the world taking that on and doing a great job of reaching out to their
communities?
John Purkis: To be honest, we have got a lot of request from Europe about the community
engagement processes and models that have taken place in Canada. I think because of the
gas tax funding that is in Canada. This is the fund I mentioned earlier, the Green Fund and
the Gas Tax Fund. Basically put a requirement on the city or community to develop long
term plans in some form or another. It is different across the country. That has led to a
bunch of innovation in engaging people in different ways. To be honest I think that Canada,
not only the organization that I work for but there are a number of consultants and other
non-profits that have done a fantastic job, but there are lots of really good examples. We
just had a delegation of the people internationally. Actually, it was up in Whistler for one
of our sustainability certificate courses. The same thing came up in the conversation. So it
is by no means scientifically valid or statistically valid, but in Canada the United States as
well as has done a lot of fantastic stuff with Portland and their neighbourhoods and eco-
districts. Some great work there. I am not as familiar with the work in Australia, but Im
sure there is some good activity there as well.
Gatan Royer: I was moderating a session yesterday that was organized by the City of
Surrey and SFU, Simon Fraser University. Essentially the rational there was that they have
encourage advocacy groups and people that are interested in advocacy are brought to the
floor because of something that happened close to their place and putting them into
training sessions to make them better informed advocate. So the session last night was
about the Regional Plan, the urban plan that has been prepared by the City of Surrey. Their
new local community plan as well as their Regional intact and transportation. It was
basically trying to bring this to people in a way that made sense of what is being done
around them.
These folks were not in the room because they were protesting something, or because
they were concerned about something happening in their neighbourhood. They were
being trained to be better informed citizens. I think that the City of Surrey is doing a
fantastic job with this program. They are basically removing the hot issue from the urban
issue in general by making these people aware of all the different things that are taking
place and all the different aspects that urban planners and transportation engineers have
to balance when they are making decisions. This in an example of providing intelligence
and answering the many questions that people have. I see this very much contributing to
integrating the various aspects of our community.
John Purkis: There are a lot of really good examples out there. I really like that one from
Surrey. In Quebec, which we dont often hear much of - in part perhaps because of the
language difference, in that all of the material there is developed in French. I was born in
the province of Quebec, which in Canada is our French speaking province. There has been
a tremendous amount of work done by the City of Montreal and a number of groups in and
around the City of Montreal. The Urban Ecology Centre there has a program of engaging
again at that neighbourhood scale. They are helping to build the capacity that you
mentioned Gatan to make citizens better that are more informed about how municipal
government works. And how they can get involved and use their energy and their voice in
a positive way. So instead of standing up and shouting about things that people dont want
we can start shouting about the things that we want to see.
The other example I came across in our research was both here in Edmonton and Calgary
where there are neighbourhood association groups. For example there are over 100
neighbourhoods I cant remember the exact number But they are an association that
represents them and provides training and support back to them. This is similar to what
you mentioned in Surrey, where the attempt there is to help make those neighbourhood
associations key members better at engaging with the municipality and working more
collaboratively. So it certainly is a fun time. There is a lot of stuff happening across the
country here in Canada and internationally.
David Faber: What strikes me there John is mentioning the local participation. In
Edmonton Alberta we have a neighbourhood structure called the Community League.
There are over 154 communities leagues within the city. It would be interesting to see
how is this decision making actually being done? How do those community leagues
actually provide input into the city in terms of their local within their community? I find
that very intriguing actually. I wonder if you know of some cities where actually do have
that structure in place where they have some influencing going on or some conversation
going on.
John Purkis: I think perhaps not in as much of a formal way. In Portland it is perhaps a
little different. We were visiting there earlier in the spring and the neighbourhood
association groups there are quite connected with municipalities. There has been a really
good dialogue and process put in place. I think that the neighbourhood associations in
vary in their strength and ability to influence decisions. There are also many of them that
have absolutely very little influence if you will. They kind of get stepped aside, which leads
to a lot of animosity. I dont have any specific examples. But I do know this is an area of
interest for a number of communities across the country.
Another thing I would like to mention on the other end of the spectrum - the Federal level.
I have been working on a little piece that looks at how many sustainable community and
neighbourhood plans have been created by cities and municipalities across the country in
Canada. There have been a number of them. Probably over seven hundred have been
completed. There are about 3,000 municipal governments in Canada and about 80 per
cent of the population is represented in those 700 plans have been completed. Those plans
if you look at them, really add up to a new direction for Canada. And that is a very
interesting conversation as well. It is not something that we tend to hear too much about. I
think there is an opportunity there for Canadian towns to be more involved and active in
that same way that residents and neighbourhoods might want to me more involved in
active in the municipal level decision making that takes place.
David Faber: Thank you for that.

Note: if you would like to hear the questions and answers session that followed this session
please check out the MP3 recording.

1
Aligning Strategies to Prosper
Logic Processors Connecting the Dots
What and where are we implementing navigating intelligence?
Speakers: Gil Friend , Christa Rust
Gil Friend is founder, president & CEO of Natural Logic Inc, helping
companies design, implement and measure profitable sustainability
strategies. He is widely considered one of the founders of the
sustainability movement, and was recently named to the Sustainability
Hall of Fame. Gil is a systems ecologist and business strategist with nearly
40 years experience in business, communications, and environmental
innovation. Gil combines broad business experience with unique content
experience spanning strategy, systems ecology, economic development, management
cybernetics, and public policy. He has served as Adjunct Faculty at Presidio Graduate
School, and guest faculty at California College of the Arts. He lectures widely on business
strategy and sustainability issues and writes a periodical called The New Bottom Line,
offering strategic perspectives on business and environment. Friend is author of the
acclaimed book The Truth About Green Business and the forthcoming book, Prot on
Purpose: Risk, Fiduciary Duty and the Laws of Nature.
Christa Rust is coordinator and facilitator of the Canadian Sustainability
Indicator Network, housed at International Institute of Sustainable
Development (IISD). Her work provides over 1,000 indicator
practitioners with interactive and web-based opportunities to learn and
discuss the theory and practice of sustainability indicator development
and use. Christa works with First Nations, industry and government in
very challenging environments and situations that involve regulatory
hearings, impact-benefit agreement negotiations, community government and industry
capacity building sessions. Christa continues to work with indigenous peoples and is
expanding her experience and knowledge base with a broad spectrum of work relating to
measurement and reporting systems.
Marilyn Hamilton: So Christa and Gil, I really am pleased that you have joined me,
because I anticipate your presentations will help make real for our audience how to
develop feedback loops and navigating intelligence that makes it possible to actually
honour the city as a living system. Since you are both seasoned practitioners, maybe I can
start our interview off with a question that asks you in what ways are you currently
scanning city environments? I am going to start with you Christa.
Christa Rust: With our work at the International Institute for Sustainable Development
we worked on a grassroots level with two projects in particular that I would like to talk
about. One is with the Assembly Manitoba Chiefs, and that was working with the First
Nations (FN) community in the urban environment to develop indicators for how the
community is doing, understanding where it's going, where it currently is and where the
future is, at least from their perspective, that they would like to be at. Also a project that
ties into that is called PEG. For anyone who is familiar with Winnipeg, everyone names it
The Peg. But PEG, at least from this context, is a community indicator system for the City
of Winnipeg.
The work that we did with Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, through the community
engagement, it became very clear that in order to understand what is happening in the
First Nations community in Winnipeg, you have to look at the whole. So the FN people that
we engaged with said, we cannot look in isolation at just the FN population of Winnipeg,
we need to look collectively at everyone. So PEG is an effort to find out what matters to
Winnipeg. To develop indicators that are meaningful and represent the city, and start the
process of engaging and monitoring on the indicators to see how progress is being made
by enhancing our ability to monitor and disclose what is going on in the city level.
We are very lucky in some cases to have more than just city level data, having community
area data, and since it's metropolis areas, depending on geographic location of the data.
Because this will help tell us what we are doing well and what we are not doing well, and
it will indicate whether there is a dramatic change. Of course understanding those changes
requires you to dig a little deeper. And figure out what did we do differently that made
that change happen, the positive or the negative. It is giving us those feedback loops to go
and address what might be a potential issue or to celebrate successes. Celebrating what
people are doing right, and giving it a bit of twist, in looking at it as an opportunity to start
a project or initiative that worked in one community area, and doing it in another, and
seeing if the same results exist. PEG is a bit of a work in progress, with only three of the
eight theme areas done, but I think it does represent one of those ways that we are
currently scanning our environment. In our work with FN before this has allowed us to get
to this point in looking at the whole of Winnipeg.
Marilyn Hamilton: That sounds really wonderful and very inspiring Christa, because you
started where people are by the sounds of it, and that's been a theme that has been
coming up strongly today. Could you tell us about what are the eight indicators you are
looking at with the PEG?
Christa Rust; Well we have 8 theme areas. We have actually a few more indicators than 8,
I wish it was only eight, but we have not been able to distill it down. So we have eight
theme areas within PEG and those theme areas are the built environment, the natural
environment, basic needs, education and learning, governance, social vitality, health and
economy. So working with the community we developed this framework to define
Winnipeg's wellbeing.
Marilyn Hamilton: So that came from them, identifying for you what the theme areas
were.
Christa Rust: Correct. we didn't want to, we can easily walk into a situation and say these
are themes that we think we should be here, but if we really want to ensure what is
created becomes a piece of social capital, something the community owns and takes care
of - you really have to engage the community from the ground up and have them play a
role in what is important and in this case for us, we had them build the framework for us.
Marilyn Hamilton: When you built that framework, were there any kinds of frames that
you used to help them identify what's working? Is that related anyway to something like
appreciative inquiry and action research, which we talked about earlier in the week?
Christa Rust: What we did is we went did a scan of a lot of indicator processes, within
Canada and within the United States. And also looking at systems abroad and looked how
at the themes were laid out. Of course we didn't go to a group of people who had not heard
of community indicators without a little bit of information for them.
We actually went through a very interesting process with a bunch of large sticky or Post-it
notes and had people write down what were the important ways in which they could
categorize their wellbeing. And it was through that process and looking at the examples
that had been used elsewhere and modifying to the needs of the community here that the
framework resulted.
Marilyn Hamilton: So that sounds really like it becomes much more powerful when isnt
you that has created it and brought forward but that they have taken ownership of it. Is
that one of the secrets of actually creating something like this for the people who are in
interested in their own wellbeing?
Christa Rust: It really is. If you go in and you prescribe something its usually not
something that is going to be well lived it is going to be a short lived process. We actually
have been involved and working in the Winnipeg project for a number of years now and
the level of participation, over 500 people engaged. A lot of those same people are still
engaged in not only developing but also providing data.
Of course you want to look to the data holders in the community helping with
interpretations. Eventually we are going to get into a reporting stage where we are going
to have something like a State of the City, and exposing how things are doing, both positive
and negative and what is going done to address those. And then some of those people are
also involved in the ideas around; how can we inspire action? We know what the data says,
we know kinda of where we want to go with things. Now how are we going to get all the
players in the community involved because we know that in order to make an effective
change in the community, we need collective action.
Marilyn Hamilton: Those all sound like really good areas for me to come back to in a
minute because I would really like to learn more about that, but I would like to bring Gil
into the conversation. Gil, in what ways are you helping businesses and organizations scan
their environments because I imagine you are working in a somewhat different context
than what Christa has been describing.
Gil Friend: Somewhat different Marilyn, but not completely. Most of Natural Logic's work
currently is with companies, mostly large companies, but over the years it has also
included work with cities and regions. Frankly, the way we look at organizations is that
organizations of any kind are more similar than they are different. They all, regardless of
their nature, their size, their location, have a metabolism. The physical flow, energy and
materials through the system characterize the system. And whether we look at city like
Oakland, California or a region like the San Francisco Bay, region, or a company like Levi
Strauss, essentially the same model can be seen in all of these. There is a flow of energy
and materials coming in, a flow of product and non product, in the case of companies,
going out. And that simple schema, that simple four flow schema lets us characterize the
nature of the organization; its health and wellbeing in relationship to its goals, and to start
to drill into an operational understanding of what can people do to get the performance
and behaviour to more closely track to the goals that they all have.
Marilyn Hamilton: So Gil, in your work at Natural Logic if you are focusing on metabolism,
well that really fits well with the whole framing that we have been looking at the city as a
living system. How have you found working with cities like Oakland and San Francisco,
was this an easy leap of a new paradigm for them, did you have to go through process of
helping them see their city in a different way?
Gil Friend: Well it's probably not easy with anybody. I don't think you can characterize
one kind of client very different from another. We are all proposing a fairly different way
of looking at cities and organization. So people have to find their own way in this new
framework.
And to the point that Christa was making before, this is not something that a consultant or
an advocate can do for a community, it has to be the community itself. There is that old
line from the movie Field of Dreams, if you build it they will come. Well, that's not exactly
true. If they build it, they will come. And so it's one thing for a professional to come in and
say here's the answer, here is what we can see in your community. It is quite another for
people explore the patterns themselves. And have the frank dialogue with each other
about what really matters to them. Ultimately this is a conversation about: what do you
care about? What matters to you in your community? What are the values that you hold?
What is the future that you want to build toward? The measures, the indicators, the
analysis is all in support of that, from my perspective. It is not an abstract process in its
own right. So when we talk with people whether its companies or communities like doing
something like a sustainability report, we always ask the question: what's it for? And
surprisingly we are often met with stunned silence. Well, what do you mean what is it for?
People do sustainability reports. Companies do social responsibility reports (CSR).
Our feeling is if that is the perspective then you are basically spending a lot of money to
build a fat press release. And what is much more interesting is to create a dashboard. It is
to create an interactive performance system that helps people be smarter. And helps
people make better decisions about bringing into being, the world they care about.
Marilyn Hamilton: And so Gil when you are building a dashboard, and you are working
with people about a purpose for the CSR, as opposed to just producing a report, are they
involved also in what kinds of measures are going on to the dashboard, are they actually
designing it for their own use?
Gil Friend: Absolutely. Absolutely. Typically, where we will start in a process is to bring
together, and sound similar to work Christa is doing, to bring together a multi-stakeholder
team. If it is in a company, it is a cross functional team from the departments of the
company. Or even better, it is those people - plus people from their supplier organizations
and downstream distribution and retail organizations. If it is for a city it's for a diverse, a
group of people representative of the different perspectives in the community as we can
get.
We will sit down together around a schematic metabolic map of the community; showing
in general qualitative terms what are the key flows and activities of the community. And
then we will use that as a tool to facilitate dialogue about; what do you care about? What
really matters to you here? What is good for you? What is sort of the archetype of the
good? What are the performance goals you are trying to reach? And where can we get
insights around those goals and trends from within system. What are they activities? What
the performance, the outputs, the flow of resources that give us insight toward those
goals? And so in a process that both involves working on the map - on the wall on the map,
as well as large group and small groups dialogue, Post-its, plus a number of other tools.
We try to distill both the core aspiration and core concerns of the community or the
organization and the key metrics that will shine light on how well are we doing.
Marilyn Hamilton: So how well we are doing, then, gives us some kind of a feedback loop
that says ok, if we are going to set out to achieve this destination, to get there, we need to
know along the way are we actually achieving our goals. Is the kind of thing you are
looking that you are looking to give the client?
Gil Friend: Yeah, and you need both of those things. You need to have some sense of
where we want to go, and then how are we doing in relationship to that. A gentleman
named J.M. Juran, who is one of the founders of Total Quality Management
1
, said gosh - 64
years ago, that to be in a state of self control, a person needs three things:
they need to know: what is expected of them? That is to say, what their goals are, or
where is it they want to go?

1
Total Quality Management or TQM is an integrative philosophy of management for continuously improving the quality of
products and processes.
[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_quality_management
they need to know: how well they are they doing in relationship to those goals. What
are the results, the actual results being generated in relation to those goals? and
the third thing they need to know is: what resources are available to them to do
differently? If that should be required.
And Juram said, and here I quote him, he said if any of these three conditions are not met,
a person cannot be held responsible.
Now this is very striking to me because I take that model and in every audience I speak to;
whether it is a community organization, or executives of a global corporations, or crowds
of people at a conference. Ill ask for a show of hands - how many of you think you have all
three of those in the organization:
knowledge of the goals,
knowledge of the results,
knowledge of the resources.
And I am frankly terrified to report that have never seen more than five percent of the
hands go up in any of the rooms I have asked this question in. Even in some of the best run
organizations in the world.
Marilyn Hamilton: That is quite an amazing result. If it is only five per cent then, you are
using a quality of reference here it means there is whole lot of room for us to improve by
the sounds of it.
Gil Friend: It means there is a whole lot of room to improve. And it means we are in the
strange situation of holding people responsible; whether it is elected city officials,
executives or staff in organizations. We are holding people responsible for results, that
according to Juran, that they cannot be responsible for producing if they are lacking these
three key elements. So this is the core part of the foundational framework we use. How do
we make these three available to everybody? So that ultimately each actor can have a clear
line of sight that connects their actions with the results of their actions, with the aspiration
they are trying fulfill, both individually and in communities or in companies. And with that
clear line of sight, then it is possible for people in autonomously coordinate to work in
parallel toward shared goals to be enormously more effective then when operating with
blinders on or with any those three elements lacking.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well it sounds like, it's natural logic. Is that where you actually got the
name of your company from? It's like a blinding flash of the obvious when you state it that
way.
Gil Friend: Well it is. The credit for the name goes to my wife who heard me talking about
the simple fact that earths living ecosystems have 3.8 billion years experience in
developing and operating productive and efficient and adaptive and resilient systems.
Why should we reinvent the wheel, when the R & D has already been done? And
instinctively you are talking about natural logic, the logic of natural systems. I said right.
So let's call the company that also make sure that in everything you say, and everything do,
and everything you provide to a client - every communication- should also be teaching
natural logic. Company name capital N, capital L, the quality of natural logic- the learning
from living systems, coming from the open source R&D of living systems, the small n and
small l, are both the same.
Marilyn Hamilton: Ok, those are really good strong little indicators for you. Gil, let me ask
you about the person was your inspiration for that I don't know actually know that person.
64 years ago somehow I missed that in my literature reviews. Is that Gerad that you are....?
Gil Friend: Juran ...J.M. Juran, J-u-r-a-n and Juran along with W Edwards Deming the two
of them are considered the grandaddy's of Total Quality Management.
Marilyn Hamilton: Once you spell it Juran yes, absolutely. Juran and Deming are the
classics. And it's amazing, that they still have well- metabolism. The outcome from their
ideas is still flowing forward and there is still, by the sound of what you are saying, a 95
per cent opportunity for people to implement them and change for the better and actually
become far more effective and efficient at what they are doing.
Gil Friend: There is massive opportunity. We see it as the biggest business opportunity of
the century. And it's an opportunity both to heal the world and the economy and generate
great wealth in the process.
Marilyn Hamilton: So, since I am asking you to speak as practitioner today, if you were
going to start with a city, where would you start when you walk in the front door? Do you
have to be called by them to come in, or do you go knock on the front door and say; I have
actually got something that will make you perform better, you should listen to me. How
do you go about doing that?
Gil Friend: We typically get invited in by people who knock our door and it will vary.
Sometimes it might be a mayor or a city counselor inviting us in. Sometimes it might be a
community organization. But in either case, the challenge is to identify who needs to be at
the table. In the case of Berkeley, California, we were brought in by the Mayor's
Sustainable Development Commission to help develop an economic development strategy
for the city. We worked with four primary groups of people. People in city government,
people in the University of California which is the primary employer and feature in the
community, people in the business community, and people in the (let's call it the)
grassroots, the community grassroots organizations, the NGO organizations,
neighborhood organizations, the churches and so forth. So we identified - through a series
of conversations, a reasonably representative group from each of those organization and
use that as the working body to try to build a sufficiently complete view of both: what is
there and, what we care about.
That is the starting point and some version of that, I think, is always the starting point.
Who is here and who matters here, and what matters to them? And then our particular
approach; we will use the metabolic framework, sometime integral frameworks, and
sometimes other kinds of tools as artifacts on the wall to help orient peoples thinking
around a common framework. All of that is a device to get to: what is that we really care
about? What is that really matter to you? Because, that is where there is the opportunity
to actually find unity or at least common ground across very diverse populations.
Marilyn Hamilton: So it sounds like if you were using either the metabolic framework or
the integral framework, that you are getting people to notice who else needs to be here to
have the whole system in the room; Would that be an accurate way of...
Gil Friend: That would be one part of the story, for sure. You don't always get to have
everybody you want in the room, so sometime you need to do the best you can with who
you have. Or approximate or pretend. Sometimes there is an empty chair; sometimes
someone plays the imaginary roles of other people. The breadth of that conversation is
really critical, because like my friend Carol Moore is fond of saying, none of us is as smart
as all of us.
Marilyn Hamilton: Right, none of us as smart as all of us. So I want to use that line to go
back to Christa because you started to talk about, in the process you used with The PEG,
and you connected it with your original conversation with the Assembly of First Nations.
How did you not only invite those stakeholders into the room but, you seem to have
partnered with other stakeholders in the city. Can you tell us a little about what other
organizational partners have turned up in the room with you with your work there?
Christa Rust: For sure, it is actually quite amazing. One of my colleagues always has said
that the stars seem to align. And think that is the best way to describe in the situation in
Winnipeg. The project PEG is actually a partnership with the United Way of Winnipeg. So if
anyone is familiar with United Way and with folks from Canada and the United States, I am
sure everyone should be. This is an organization that has their ear to the ground with
respect to the community - and knowing a lot of the issues and a lot of people in the
community. So it was an ideal partnership with the International Institute for Sustainable
Development (IISD). We can be a little bit techie sometimes and we like data and numbers,
and the United Way is great at talking to people so, the two of us got together in order
start monitoring progress. And actually, the whole process with the United Way goes back
prior to my days at the IISD and I have been there for five years now. So there had been
conversation very early on that said in some survey, that basically told the United Way
that City of Winnipeg - the people of Winnipeg - want to know what is happening. They
want to know what the numbers are saying and where things are going because perhaps
you are not getting a full portrayal of what the actual situation is by reading the
newspaper or watching the news on TV. They don't have a clear picture, a complete
picture. So that started out the process of a number of engagements.
So with regard to bringing people to the table; slowly over the years the number of the
people at the table as grown. We have the core partnership being United Way and IISD,
but we have a lot of other people at the table. We have the Winnipeg Regional Health
Authority. Virtually every department of the government of Manitoba is involved in some
capacity. We have folks from the private sector. We have folks from NGO's, folks from
school divisions. We have people who are just average Winnipeger that are interested in
this, and interested in making a difference. Stats Canada from the local Winnipeg office,
the statistics branch in Manitoba, or in Winnipeg as well. There are so many people at the
table that I cannot even list them all, Marilyn. It is actually, I guess a bit of an example of
how perfect the process is that are some many people who are willing to devote their time
and their energy. Which these days, is hard to come by. And they are all doing this at no
cost. PEG is a project, this is a funded project. And a lot of the people, who are the table
with us, are the people who believe in the project and also who fund the project.
Marilyn Hamilton: So it sounds to me like then there is huge welling of volunteer
contribution, that you have servants of abundance that are actually interested in caring
about what matters and how to measure it.
Christa Rust: Exactly, and I guess a lot of it is either from their own personal perspective
or they find that what we are doing with PEG actually helps them with what they do in
their job. One of the ideas around PEG, we wanted to make something that was useable for
every segment of the population. So if you had an eight year who had to a book report
about something that would have to do with Winnipeg, they can go on to the PEG website.
For those of you who haven't had an opportunity; our PEG site is www.mypeg.ca - and PEG
is spelled P E G. And you have an opportunity to navigate around; to look at stories, to look
at maps, or just to navigate the themes and the indicators to see what is going on.
Marilyn Hamilton: So, myPEG is actually a different website that what you have up with
IISD, which you can get to with Google. MyPeg is actually the personally, and me and my
city. What I own here. What I see that represents me.
Christa Rust: Exactly. Yeah I have provided a number of resources with respect to the
project but if you go to www.mypeg.ca you actually see the PEG. The idea is that yes,
United Way and IISD are the partners who are driving this process, but we want to have
something that is kind of a stand of alone. It is the tool the community can use to see how
the progress is coming. It is very similar to a dashboard, so to speak, but we wanted to
make sure what we created was intuitive and that it mattered to the community. So weve
got different features in there like: stories. We have interviews with individuals about
understanding how poverty has impacted them and how it has changed them. Weve got
stories about early childhood education and how early development index tools are telling
us how children are being prepared for school. There is whole gamut of information from
that to heat maps and just to linked to exploration on how themes and indicators are
interconnected.
Marilyn Hamilton: I am looking at the site while we are talking and it is a really beautiful
site. So that you can actually see the people you are choosing the story about by the looks
of it.
Christa Rust: Yes.
Marilyn Hamilton: And the maps give people an opportunity to locate the stories and
were they are in relationship today, by the looks of it. It sounds like you are having the
same kind of opportunity that Gil has been trying to do over the years, which is to educate
as people to learn how to do sustainability. And how connect with one another, and how
to see the system as a living system - whole.
Christa Rust: Exactly. And its through the engagement process that we have really built
the PEG website by putting in what made sense to people and trying to describe things.
You know there is a large segment of our population that really does understand stories a
lot more than numbers. If we can take some of those indicators and tell a story about them
it becomes digestible for a portion of the population who wasnt very interested in looking
at a bunch of numbers and graphs. So we are trying to make something useable for just
about everyone.
Marilyn Hamilton: When I think about Integral City, one of the reason I use that model is
because it integrates the consciousness and culture of city, along with the myriad of
indicators we have around say - bio-physical health or structures and infrastructures and
systems. So it sounds to me like you have been able to do the same kind of thing in a very
friendly way, by offering people a way they can see themselves through a story. Not just
through data, but you provide both so they can actually start to learn the connection
between the two.
Christa Rust: Yeah, you know we are still exploring the whole story aspect. It has been an
evolution because obviously you need to figure out to best tell the story, but you don't
want to remove anything from the story. And there is only so long you have to capture the
attention of an individual to read a story. But with this continual learning, we really are
seeing a dramatic impact that comes from the story. So we are just working now with the
right people to figure out how to get it right. We have a video on the front page of PEG. It is
three minute live stream half minute video that we had actually put up through YouTube.
And it's a bit of mash up of a number of interviews that I was actually privileged enough to
conduct about people who are living in poverty, and seeing how their life has been
dramatically impacted and how they still rise above and they come out of it. It just give
people a little bit more of grounded perspective knowing the situation of others, and
perhaps, it might also inspire them to do something different in their own life.
Marilyn Hamilton: And did you have the experience when you were doing the interviews
with those people that perhaps the one of the effects you had you actually helped them be
seen.
Christa Rust: Yeah, actually in one case, one individual who we had profiled - later won an
award for all of her volunteer work. This is an individual who was living at a homeless
shelter but devoting her time, as much as she could, to volunteering at a local organization.
And all of the good work she was doing volunteering was of course then recognized so we
were all pretty proud of her. We have been able to watch her grow since we have done
that interview.
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that is really something we think of around the Master Code
that I use for Integral City, which is: look after yourself - take of yourself, take care each
other and take care this place. It sounds like you have created the condition for being able
to do that in Winnipeg. I would like to just go back to Gil, now, and thinking about the
organizations, you've written about green business you have created the CSR framework
that both city and sectors can use. Now once those kinds of dashboards are in place, Gil,
and they say actually we are not achieving what we set out to do, can you give us some
stories about how the organizations, the people are reading and using those dashboards,
decide to make course corrections?
Gil Friend: Sure, you want to talk about cities or companies or both.
Marilyn Hamilton: If you want to start with cities and you want to integrate companies in
that, as you pointed out, people who are in organizations turn up in the cities because of
the metabolism flows. So if you have something that illustrates both, that would be great.
Gil Friend: I'll go back to work we did quite some years ago with a 10 county region in a
largely rural community in Eastern United States in Virginia, which brought us into help
advise them on economic develop strategy. This is a region whose historic businesses
where fisheries and forestry, and whose growing businesses were tourism and retirement
homes. And in the course of doing some analysis we observed a couple of things:
One is that economically there were some real structural conflicts in the nature of the
economy. One is that the forestry industry, in 8 of the 10 counties was harvesting at a far
greater rate than the re-growth of trees. Apparently, nobody was quite aware of that as an
overview of the economic development strategy of the region. So your bread and butter is
at risk.
The second is that the way forestry and fisheries were being conducted were degrading
the environment, the very thing that was attracting the tourism and the retirement home
community. So there was another conflict then at risk.
Third, when you looked at the value added to the economy sector by sector, it was clear
that some shift would have to happen in order to sustain a level of economic quality and
economic growth on into the future. And this was done an analysis, not as a community
process to be clear on that.
So this was a basically a surprise and a wake-up call to the community. One of the things
that emerged from that process was realization that when you look at the resource flows
in that community; the materials that are being generated as so called wastes, and the
materials that is being imported as various kinds of purchases there was a powerful
opportunity to close the loops. And, instead for paying large sums of money to ship waste
material great distances to landfills, they conceivable be used as feed stocks into local
business processes'. We built the map that identified a half a dozen key missing pieces in
the economy, that businesses -- if they were targeting to build business in those gaps,
would not only add economic value, but would start to connect missing pieces - in what I
would call the food web of the local economy. So there is one example for you.
On the business side, we worked some years ago with a food processing company, a real
sustainability leader in many ways, in terms of quality of product and sourcing of food
stuff and so forth, for the product they were producing. But when we did the metabolics
on their modern and excellent factory, we found that the product to non-product ratio,
which is also a key measure that we look at. This was a company that thought they were
recycling 95 per cent of their waste and they way we drew the map we said, well actually
what you are doing is:
20 per cent of what you leaves your plant is going into packages of food product that is
being sold to people, that is your intention,
about 5 per cent of what leaves your plant is stuff that is being a recycled in one way or
another, and
75 per cent% of what leaves your plant is literally going down the drain, as waste
water and waste-water carrying food product.

We produced it as a pie chart, and showed to the CEO and Chief Operating Officer and the
fell off their chairs.
They realized in an instant, it was both an aesthetic revulsion because it just didn't match
their pictures of who they are and who they wanted to be. But they also realized from a
business perspective that was really stupid way to run a business. Why buy raw materials
and operate plants and equipment and pay labour and spend money on management to
produce stuff that doesn't add value to your customers or your shareholders. And worse
than that, you have to pay to get rid of. It doesn't make any sense. And as with almost
every company that confronts that ratio, they say - clearly the goal has to be zero waste.
There is no other number that makes any sense at all. Reducing waste a little bit here and
lot there is not as interesting as saying: let's stop doing that.
Then the story gets interesting. Because, then they say, well what is this so called waste
train? They engaged us and some other firms to look at the waste stream and start to look
at what are possible beneficial uses. And in this case we are looking at waste water and
food product and relative small amounts of benign sanitizing chemicals. Well it seemed to
us that was feedstock for agriculture, horticulture, and aquaculture. And as we started to
model out what you could do with the volumes of the waste streams they were generated
we found potential value that was, oh gosh, it was long enough ago I don't remember the
number -- I think it added something like ... could add 20-25 per cent to the revenue of the
company. This is taking a perfectly legal waste stream produced by a company using the
best manufacturing practices, that was an invisible cost on the profit and loss statement,
but that was hidden a opportunity to grow their revenue by 20-25 per cent.
Marilyn Hamilton: Very interesting, and those are numbers that any company wants to
know, because that just being left on the table. It's there to actually claim as their own
Gil Friend: Again and again, we have to say weve worked with more than 200 companies,
in the 13 years. I can't think of one where there wasn't money lying on the table. And this
includes some of the best companies in the world.
Marilyn Hamilton: So this idea of taking the metabolic flow is obviously ways to not only
link in to a living system way, but the story that you just told about the 10 counties, it
sounds to me like it is not only focusing on the city per se and the food web that you called
it, but it is actually engaging their relationship with their eco region. So you are not only
improving the metabolism of the city itself but you are interconnecting it with the
metabolism of the eco region. Am I thinking about it right?
Gil Friend: That is certainly the goal. The way that we think about it now is to think about
ambient resource goals in an eco region. And we ask the question: to what extent can a
city or community or a development or company live within the budget of the ambient
resource flows? Can you operate effectively given the resources of sun, wind, rain, water
flows and other resources that natively exist where you are? Can you adapt your design,
you land use planning, your operations to actually align those ambient flows - rather than
making a community dependent on a far flown import network, that is going to be
increasingly unstable in the coming decades.
Marilyn Hamilton: And Gil, since you have been looking at it that way, I am just curious
do you think it is possible for our cities to re-negotiate that relationship with their eco-
regions? Do we have new kinds of examples to point around this even an experiment that
anybody has started?
Gil Friend: In theory yes, but it is not an easy job. We have got some capital infra-
structure that has been built over decades of highly subsidized development with so called
cheap energy and nobody paying pollution and environmental costs. So we start with
what we have. Its a little bit different retro fitting an existing city than building a new one.
But yeah, we should be able to do this. Look we know how build buildings that are 90 per
cent more energy efficient than typical. We know how to build buildings that are zero
energy foot print. We know how, in many regions, to build buildings that are zero water
foot print. We know that this is not just a matter of design and buildings, but design of
communities and cities. What are the relationships between the parts of the city?
How do you think about not just transportation but access? How do you think about
zoning that adds synergy and value and reduces economic and resource costs? And part of
the challenge here, Marilyn, this is something folks like us bump into all the time, is that
this requires a systemic pattern-based approach to design and development. And sadly to
say most people are stuck in seeing the world as things. Most people see the world as
things -- and some people see the world as patterns and processes -- and that where the
real value lies.
I served on the San Francisco Mayor's clean tech advisory commission some years ago.
And one of the things they tasked us with in first couple of meetings - was to develop a
taxonomy of clean tech, so the city could identify businesses and invest in them and
support them and so forth. And I was really struck - we had solar portable tanks, we had
energy efficient buildings, we had super efficient windows. But we didn't have anything
that dealt with zoning. We didn't have anything that dealt with locating of buildings and
the impact of shading one building onto the other in a scheme where you are trying to
maximize energy production. We didnt have anything that dealt with orientation of
building or the relative placement of buildings to each other to minimize transportation.
There was nothing that looked at the systems level. It was all things, artifacts, elements of
a process. And so I think one of the big challenges here is to find the venue in which you
can have a sufficient stake to look at the all the pieces together and look at their
interactions. That's where the benefits go from being additive to being multiplicative.
Marilyn Hamilton: Yeah, yes and that's where the image that I use of the human hive that
comes to my mind.
Gil Friend: Yes.
Marilyn Hamilton: if you are going to use the 3.8 billion reference point, the bee to
human the honey bee has been around a 100 million years, adapted to all the geographies
of the world. Not only is able to sustain the hive to producing 40 lbs of honey a year, but in
fact, renews all the resources and supplies the pollen and the nectar that enables them to
do that - so they have a double sustainability loop. And this is actually one of my great
curiosities in thinking about navigating as an intelligence for the human hive is, what is
the equivalent of our 40 lbs of honey? How do we incorporate not only the raw materials
from the ambient resources, but how do we actually do that with our consciousness and
cultures that have emerged as an evolutionary quality of the human species.
Gil Friend: um hmmm...
Marilyn Hamilton: So those are my curiosities around larger systems. And I am going to
turn to back to Christa now because you reminded me, in your story Gil, about Christas
starting point for the PEG work came from her work with Assembly of First Nations. So I
am now curious after the length of time you have been working with, if I remember what
you said correctly, 500 people now connected with this work. Have you gone back to the
First Nations and has this made a difference for them? Have they been able to use the
feedback that your system has been starting to generate?
Christa Rust: Well they have been and continue to be a player at the table as well. So they
have been involved in varying capacities and in various working groups of PEG. And
actually when I was my maternity leave there was a presentation made to the Assembly
Manitoba Chief by my colleague to get them up to speed with where things were and
where we could see more feedback. We have had conversations with various departments
of government. Also looking kind of a forward look of what PEG can be used for. And there
are a number of folks who see PEG as a tool to highlight where there might be some
inadequacies with respect to programs or funding or different pieces. And that is
something within the First Nations community in Winnipeg - is access to certain
programming that is highlighted as a bit of an issue. We are also looking at the use PEG to
help us identify those pieces of information that would be most valuable for the
community. Of course as I mentioned that we are still working on populating everything. I
think we should have three theme areas populated in the New Year, probably in January
or February with all of our data and indicators. But as I was mentioning the Assembly of
Manitoba Chiefs have been continuously involved in that, also with the addition of the
Manitoba Mtis Federation.
Marilyn Hamilton: It is interesting you bring up these issues - that they might not even
have voice for within the city. It is reminding me of someone else we were talking to this
time last week and that was the group from San Francisco that maybe Gil knows called
Break-thru Communities
2
. They have been looking at social equity issues within the city
and one of their ways of getting the stories out is to tell the story. So Christa it sounds to
me like there might be even some good connections with what they have been discovering
with social justice issues that impact how people interact. In what many people just might
say- oh this is spatial issue, this just has to with infrastructure of the city - when they are
pointing out and discovering that, NO, it might actually have to do with our assumptions
around how different people work at the same -- from cultures that are different -- when
in fact different cultures relate to the space quite differently and when we don't know we
don't know.
Christa Rust: Exactly and Winnipeg is also home to a very growing and vibrant immigrant
community too. So not only to do we have concerns coming from the aboriginal
community here in Winnipeg, but there are perhaps some concerns coming from our
diverse ethnic groups as well. So we have a lot of opportunities to see PEG grows in
different ways and helps illuminate where we can do things better or even illuminate what
we are doing good.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well -I think what I would like to do is come to a place where I can
invite both into talk a little bit about values because this is something Gil mentioned fairly
early on in our dialogue here. And he mentioned it in two ways: he mentioned values
related to -- this is what matters, and also values of, they get translated through world
views. But he also talked about value streams. So the whole metabolic process comes up
again. I am going to ask each of you to talk about how you do see different values turning
up in the city? How do you see different values being represented in the kinds of system
indicators of wellbeing that you are using?
Christa did you want to start there and then we will go back to Gil.
Christa Rust: That's a tough one, we usually try to avoid the values piece because we
want to make sure that we are impartial. This is some respect considering the community
has a number of different values. Yeah, maybe I'll let Gill tackle that one, and give me time
to think.
Gil: (laughing) Well, thanks Christa, Ill take that one.
We actually don't avoid it. We like to wade right into that one because we think it is the
heart in the process here. And let me share with you a story that I got from my colleague
Bill Reed. Bill is based in New England and is one of the real leaders in whole green

2
http://www.breakthroughcommunities.info/index.htm

building universe, early involvement in the planning of the LEED green building rating
system and so forth. Bill was leading, was asked to lead a design charrette for a school in
the north east of the US, some years back. A very well regarded popular private school in
the community who was going to expand their campus. And was going to do it in a very
sustainable, energy efficient, water efficient ecologically sensitive way. But they were
surprised to find that, what we call in the United States, the NIMBY's came out, the Not In
My BackYard people, who were neighbours who didn't like this idea. They started
strapping on their lawyers. And there was a very contentious situation brewing. Bill was
brought in to help guide the design process through that. He asked to bring all the
stakeholders together. The school, the teachers, the students, the parents of the students,
the developer, the architect, the various contractors, the county zoning authorities, the
banks that were financing this, the local political figures and so forth, everybody that
touched this thing.
Brought them into the room together and figuratively locked the door. And asked
everybody a question: what is your feeling about this project? And one person said I am
for it and one said I am against it and they went around the room asking everyone what
their thoughts were. And then he went around again and asking: why do you feel that
way? And people gave various reasons concern about congestion or cost or losing trees, or
whatever, or more access to opportunity for my children, many different reasons. Then he
went around again and asked: whats the reason for that? And then he went around again,
and then he went around again. He did a lap of the room about seven times. He went
through the reason behind the reason, behind the reasons for the fervently held positions
that people had. And what he found happened, because that after seven passes through
the system was that pretty much everyone had the same concerns. Everybody was
concerned about the wellbeing of their children, about the safety on the streets, about the
quality of the environment. And there were still differences, but there was a fundamental
sense that people were looking around the room and really starting to put down their
guns and saying we have a common interest here. We have a common agenda here. And
Bill said ok - now - let's start talking about design of the project. And what happened as a
result is that a project that was already a real beacon of sustainable design, energy
efficient and water efficient, became far much more effective, far much more efficient in
terms of its environmental footprint, far more efficient in terms of its economic
performance. And for me, speaking of metrics, here is the interesting metric. A county that
hadn't given the zone variance in 10 years granted a zoning variance for this project in
two months.
So I ask in the story: what is the value? What is the value of the community not going to
war with itself? Of not being tied up in the courts for years? What is the value of being able
to start construction on the school in two months instead of two years? What is the value
the sense of common purpose that people gain from this? And so, for me it is a great
example that refutes the all too common assumption that sustainability and social
wellbeing has to come at the expense of something else. You know, do we have to sacrifice
profits versus sustainability. Do we have to sacrifice quality of life for profits? Do we have
to sacrifice quality of life for sustainability? A lot of people think of all these things as
tradeoffs. But when you can get a requisite variety of people together, and peel away the
layers of position and attitude to find what animates peoples hearts. And then take that
into integrated design process that engages everyone about everything as early in the
process and really works to the inter connections in the mesh Marilyn, as you call it.
Amazing productivity and innovation and collaboration and wellbeing can emerge.
Marilyn Hamilton: mmmmm. Thank you Gil, that is a wonderful story and not only harks
back the mesh and the meshworking that we looked at as strategy yesterday. But it goes
all the way back to our first week. And looking at our planet of cities, we had Elizabet
Sahtouris, one of our thought leaders on the day we were looking at living systems, and
Elizabet made the point -- in the history of our 3.8 billion years in this life on earth that the
biological the microbial systems figured out a long, long, long, time ago, that is much more
energy efficient make friends with your neighbor than to make war with them. And that is
how whole stream of evolutionary symbiosis has emerged. And so we started talk about
the impact this is now having our human species that we are evolving to a point where we
are realizing that in fact war is very costly.
Whether it is at the neighborhood level, or whether it is at the cultural level within cities
or nations and between nations. And of course, I believe this is something the human
species were just sort of getting out of teenage hood and we're trying to figure out how
this body of the planet works and how we ourselves are in Gaias organ. The idea we can
take responsibility, we wake to our capacity, and grow up to it and the responsibility. This
way of framing in the story of bring back also into the flow of life, and the metabolism of
life, and noticing how wellbeing happens. And, when we translate into language terms, like
you did with the story, we can hear that everybody values life in some way and we need to
stay together long enough to be able to hear one another. As you said to come to the place
where we peel away enough layers and find out that underneath it we are actually are
sharing values that can work together for us and that can emerge in a design. So you have
given us a whole trajectory here from practice, through engagement, through design, back
into the first principles. So thanks for that story, Gil.
Now of course I can't leave Christa sitting there without coming back to you and saying
does this remind you of some way you are engaging the values in your work. And that they
really are important. Maybe even in first principles of the First Nations people you are
working with depend on.
Christa Rust: Now that I have had the chance to think a little bit, we do have values. But
the integration of the values is more of a hidden piece, so to speak. With the work that we
did with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs in developing community indicators or to start
the process of developing for the community values, obviously, played a key role when
you are dealing with different cultural groups. The values in the community obviously
need to guide the process or guide the way the framework is developed. For that context,
values were very forward and I guess it coming back my discussion we have such a
diverse population here in Winnipeg, that the values piece doesn't come out front and
center. Because, we are looking at so many different groups, with so many different value
systems, we really want to be careful not offend anyone's value system. But at the same
time, make sure PEG is relevant to everyone. So we are more or less looking at collective
value. And I think a lot of that collective value speaks to the people who have been
involved and the results that we have gotten thus far. So that is why I see it more as a
hidden value systems but not an outright one. Does that make sense, Marilyn?
Marilyn Hamilton: Yeah, and perhaps then Christa we can sort of give you a feedback
loop from our conversation to take back into Winnipeg because the description that you
give of not only the indigenous people and those Canadians that have been around for
awhile, but the huge impact of the immigrant community is crystallizing something I have
said repeatedly throughout the conference. Our cities are actually microcosms of the
world now, because pretty well a city as large as Winnipeg has a representation probably
from most cultures of the world. And how are we learning to negotiate in a very contained
space, cultures that have been separated by distance and geography for maybe all of the
time they have existed.
So it does bring the pressure on the city to both, notice what can be noticed, and I think
Gils story sounds to me like one of the precepts for doing this kind of work is you have to
create space that is safe enough that people will tell that story. Interesting, that you gave
us the image of the person who made the figurative closed door - but stayed with the
question long enough to actually to get people to tell the story of what matters to them
and what are their concerns and then discover as they ask deeply enough, that there are
common values that we all share. And even though some of us may consider that they
become more complex as they evolved, in different places, that we have to create new
ways of looking at our feedback loops in cities, because your very story about not making
war is a really good one to encourage us to look at the wellbeing of life in our cities.
And it lies certainly at the heart of the conference and certainly at the heart of why I want
to know. Its a great question Gil.
Why am I interested in what people why we have CSRs or why we want to have more
sustainability or wellbeing is because I think we have come to a place on this planet that
we really have to address our responsibility for not just our own lives as a species, but all
of life on the planet.
So thank you, both of you for participating and me and this dialogue on something that
often people will point to as navigating intelligence; that is just all about numbers and I
don't do that work. But I think that you have brought some very vivid examples of how
that really helps us to understand that our cities can be really full of wellbeing and vibrant
with life.
Any last comments that you would like to make about what you have heard from each
other and where you actually think your contributions might be best made to wellbeing in
your cities.
Christa Rust: It's a question to see who is going to jump in first. I think that I beat you Gil!
Gil Friend: I think Ill let you go first Christa and Ill take the time to think.
Christa Rust: No problem. No, I think it was a pleasure to have this opportunity, Marilyn.
And Gil I wasn't aware of the work you have been doing. Sounds like there are a lot of
similarities of what we do. And obviously we have explored them within the last hour here.
So I am very interested to learn more about the work that you are doing Gil. And perhaps
there are some opportunities for some synergies in looking at some of the work that either
of us has done. So, more ways to expand our knowledge is based on the experience of one
another so I really do appreciate that Marilyn and Gil.
Gil Rust: I agree, Christa. I look forward to that. There are interesting both commonality
and differences in approaches among the three of us. It is a very rich mix to bring all of this
together. Christa I havent known of your work individually, but I have been tracking IISD
long time and I am a great admirer of it and would love to find ways to do things together,
that would be exciting.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you both very much. I must confess that one of the first times I
ever encountered IISD was, when I was introduced to the work of Buzz Holling and
panarchy and he has also been a thought leader in our conference. And I must say he gave
us an image we seem to be attracting a lot of people who would be good on islands. Which
is one of the way he is actually, as you may well know, hes studied resilience and
emergence. I would like to thank you both again because I think you brought some really
powerful, on the ground, practical ways of engaging with the City of Winnipeg, with the
First Nations Assemblys you started talking with Christa. And Gil your years of experience
in the whole sustainability movement are truly inspiring whether you talk about
organizations or cities are very inspiring and you have managed to tap into the flow of life
making very real for people. So thank you very much to both of you.
Gil Friend: Thanks you Marilyn for putting this all together.
Christa Rust: Yes, thank you Marilyn.

Integral City eLab December 4, 2012
1

Amplifying Intelligence Accessing Our Evolutionary Power
Source
What and where are we implementing evolutionary intelligence
for outer wellbeing?
Steve McIntosh
Steve McIntosh J.D. is a leader in the integral philosophy movement and
author of Evolution's PurposeAn Integral Interpretation of the Scientific Story
of Our Origins, and Integral Consciousness and the Future of EvolutionHow the
Integral Worldview Is Transforming Politics, Culture, and Spirituality. He
currently works as a Founding Partner of the new social policy foundation, The
Institute for Cultural Evolution. Steve has had a variety of successful careers,
including founding the consumer products company Now & Zen, practicing
law with one of Americas biggest firms, working as an executive with Celestial Seasonings
Tea Company, and Olympic-class bicycle racing. He is a graduate of the University Of Virginia
Law School and the University of Southern California Business School.
Marilyn Hamilton: Steve welcome to the Integral City 2.0 Online Conference.

Steve McIntosh: Thank you Marilyn, it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Marilyn Hamilton: With a new book out Steve, I am really delighted we have this nexus
point to explore with you; something related to an Integral City new operating system.

I thought this was an opportunity today to look at how you explore integral consciousness,
which you did in your first book and also the impact of having an evolutionary paradigm.
Then these both impact my views of looking at an integral city. I thought that we might
start to inquire into this with a question that relates to something I was always moved by
in your first book and that you pick up and follow in your second book. It relates to the
values of truth, beauty and goodness. These are such core values that I wanted to invite
you to tell us a little bit about how you see that it is important for leaders to enact them.
How do we encounter them in our daily lives?

Steve Mcintosh: Sure, that's a great question. The beautiful, the true and the good, is
really kind of a rubric I use to talk about intrinsic value. And there are many labels or
Integral City eLab December 4, 2012 2
words we can use. There are certainly other candidates for the hive values such as
freedom or love or happiness. I think these are all included. We can sort of talk about the
different philosophical angles in which we might approach or talk about intrinsic value.
But the words the beautiful, the true and the good as concepts, I think, have an extremely
well developed philosophical pedigree.
They were originally recognized and framed by Plato in the 4th century BC. Down through
history the great saints and sages and thinkers who really contemplated the human
condition at a deep level, both East and West, have continually returned to the idea of the
beautiful, the true and the good as an excellent description of what it really- what it is- as
the nature of dynamic quality.
Another way of unpacking this idea is that integral philosophy as one of its primary values
or focuses, is on the evolutions of culture and consciousness. Culture doesn't evolve by
itself. Consciousness, human consciousness as culture evolve together. So, sometimes i
like to speak of this domain of evolution as the psycho-social. Indeed Clare Graves talked
about it as the bio-psycho-social so that is even more accurate. Although somewhat of a
mouthful.

And so since the begin, or for at least the 50,000 years at least, humans have been striving
to improve their conditions. And the beautiful, the true and the good are really
descriptions of what improvement means at its most basic level. And humans have
improved their conditions, most dramatically, by improving their definition of
improvement itself. And so what I mean by that, within a given worldview, as we
understand through integral philosophy and spiral dynamics, and many complimentary
systems that have described this spectrum of historical evolution, we have what you might
conceive of as octaves of value. In other words, at the tribal level, the worldview of the
tribal perspective is a reality frame. It has a systemic cohesion, as sort of cell wall, it is like
an organism.
This organism metabolizes values and indeed, thinking of it in terms of the beautiful, the
true and the good, the energy sources by which a worldview maintains its systemic
integrity, is an important way of understanding what is going in the internal realm of
cultural evolution. How worldviews help people create macro social agreements that bind
them together, not only culturally by way of political agreements. But it also helps to
obviously structure the socio-economic relations and the political relations. So for
example, a tribal worldview leads to a tribal kind of organization. Indeed the city doesn't
emerge until more complex forms of human social development emerge, but certainly you
can see that tribes gather in villages, and tribal enclaves, and that is in some ways a proto
city.
Just like tribal consciousness is a early emerging worldview that has its own important
values. Its own evolutionary achievements and the core of those evolutionary
achievement is somethings we cannot do without. Even though there may not be very
many tribal cultures left in the world. When we are getting it right, we have a version of
tribal values within us, within our own consciousness. Because we are not making
meaning at higher levels throughly, unless we are throughly including the evolutionary
achievement. Just like our bodies aren't healthy if at the level of the cell, the cells are not
healthy.
So every stage of consciousness ideally has its healthy expression within our own internal
cultural eco-system. You know that adds to and sort of makes up the body of our
consciousness today, our 21st century consciousness, to the extent we are able to make
meaning at these higher stages.
But going back to the beautiful, the true and the good, when humans find that their life
conditions are fairly well satisfied, they awaken to a new problem set and a new set of
values. This is one of the major differences between human evolution and human
consciousness and the biological level upon which we are resting, we are standing. The
biological evolution is the pre-requiste to the evolution of the psycho-social domain.
We can see that even animals respond to the beautiful, the true and the good. Survival
value, the value of the survival and reproducing. The intrinsic value of each animal
organism, not only individually, but as a continuing species is clearly a form of goodness
for which all life is striving. We can also see, in some ways that the evident selection of the
most biological fit mate, that you can even see in insects, is a form of esthetics or a form
beauty to which life is also attracted. So these values of the beautiful, the true and the
good, now truth the harder argument, but at least goodness and beauty, we can see it
going all the way down in life and acting as a value for all forms of evolution - beginning
with evolution that can choose in the form of living organisms.
So then an animals needs can be relatively satisfied. Animal consciousness really depends
on its biology. In order for an animal to get smarter, it has to evolve its brain. For humans
to evolve new kinds of intelligence, as you describe it, we are able to, in other words,
whatever biological evolution the human brain may have gone through in the last 10,000
years, this by itself certainly can not explain the tremendous evolution of consciousness
that's gone on within the human psyche and human culture since that time. Of course we
are able to transcend our biology and enter into this new category of evolution, where we
are not dependent on biological evolution making progress because we have invented
culture. We have invented language. We have invented a way of standing on the
shoulders of our ancestors.
But more important than, I think arguably more important, than externally artifacts of
cultures evolution, the formation of cities, and more complex forms of human organization,
are the new definitions of improvement as I am describing it. These new ways
ofunderstanding what is beautiful, true and good. And so let me just give examples, right.
The goodness evolves in obvious ways as humans form more complex social organizations
and go through these stages of values emergence. And we can see that in terms of the
circle of morality, those worthy of moral consideration at the tribal level and of course
there are exceptions to everything, but in the tribal level for the most part those worthy of
moral consideration are your kins, those who are in the same tribe. And often, for good
reason, those who are in a different tribe are seen as the enemy. They are a threat and
they are not worthy of the same moral consideration as your kin.

Then we move in evolution as sort of a pre-traditional stage of development to traditional
consciousness to what we know as the great religious civilizations. And at that level we
move from a kinda of family and even an ego-centric form of morality to one where those
of the same religion or ethnic group become worthy of moral consideration. And even
though that is something we look down upon now ethno-centric morality, something we
want to transcend, at one time in history this was a major leap forward because it allowed
the circle of moral care to be drawn around more than just your direct blood kin. You
could...larger groups could come together. Drawn together by writing and more complex
forms of social organization. They were able to form really the first cities. Right were
formed by the civilization that had achieved judicial level of consciousness. Able to move
beyond the village, because they were able to move beyond blood kin as basis for moral
solidarity.
Then of course, we move in history to modernism, we have more nationalistic forms of
morality where those who are worthy or moral consideration may include a several
different religions, but its your countryman -the people like Americans- are seen at a
nationalistic level of morality, as being more moral worthy than people who live in other
countries. And again this is something we have transcended at progressive level of
development. But at one point, the fact that you could have several different religions,
within the same form of moral solidarity, was a step forward beyond strictly ethnocentric
morality.
And now in the 20th century, in the 21st century and beyond we're drawing the circle of
moral care in wider arcs yet, in the sense that we have more world-centric morality where
all living beings, all sentient beings, are worthy of moral consideration. And this is a
significant evolutionary achievement that allows us to at least begin to think in terms of
global civilization - even though we are still a long way from having a functional form of
that.
And so just quickly, you can see the same thing with truth. We move from a kind a magical
understanding of what reality is, to a mythical understanding, to a kinda of
scientific/rational, and then to an increasingly holistic levels of understanding. Thats how
we understand that we've been gifted this beautiful vision of what the world is and really,
weve gotten a tremendous grip of reality through science, but now we are understanding
that a materialistic view or just an external view is not as complete as we can make it.
Bringing in the internal understanding, the understanding of consciousness and the
internal understanding of culture is an important new frontier. Indeed that's one of the
major benefits of the evolutionary worldview, and I am sure one of the things thats really
coming out in a beautiful way in this conference. So these values of beautiful, truth and
goodness can be understood as kind of key to the physics of this internal universe. The
internal of the universe of subjectivity and intersubjectivity where some of the most
important foundations of cultural evolution are taking place.

We might be able to build beautiful structures and have elaborate technologies, but if our
values don't give us a perspective, if they don't support a consciousness that can have a
wide moral appreciation and affinity for all people, and sophisticated forms of scientific-
and indeed more than scientific - a kinda of holistic level of understanding of these values
of goodness and truth and understanding how beauty fits into there. This is the basis for
the future, these are directions of evolution.
I was giving a talk on Sunday night and somebody asked me, well what is value? What do
you mean by value? You could be talking about Keynesian economic value. And so I tried
explain from an integral perspective, at least from my perspective, these values are
directions of evolution so we can't expect them to stand still and behave like objects. We
can't really give a satisfactory definition of what goodness is, because our understanding
of goodness is subject to ever deepening discovery. We are coming to understand the
good the true and the beautiful in increasing ways, and because they are sort of directions
of improvement, and because at least at this stage of our development there seems to be
no end of improvement, and plenty of improvement to make in every direction, we have to
understand these values as having sort of two ends.
At one end, they connect with something transcendent -- and the other end they reach all
the way to the ground. So you know, if you want to make your house more beautiful, you
might paint it. I mean that's a pretty straight forward factual application of some of these
ideas. When we also try to get to the essence of what beauty is...why would you want to
make your house more beautiful? Or what is that becomes more beautiful beyond the
colour or the paint, you can see that values point to something beyond. No matter how
many instances we can find of the beautiful, the true and the good, these experiences - at
their core - give us a sense that there is something more, there is some goodness that lies
yet beyond.
And that gives us a clue about how these values are not just concrete or economic, they
also point to spiritual realties. And as I argue in my book, the beautiful, the true and the
good can be understood, in some ways from a spiritual perspective, as the presence of the
infinite within the finite universe. The core of what it is that makes these things directions
of perfection is that they do transmit a connection to something that indeed is
transcendent. And while that may be deniable by some, I think it is widely accessible,
even little children can feel the transcendent pull of the spiritual nature of these values,
even though they may not be able to articulate philosophically what it is that they are
experiencing.
So anyway the beautiful, the true and the good form an important foundation of my
philosophy, and I think increasing the integral philosophy. It's a way that integral
philosophy can be spiritual without you know relying on spiritual authorities, or without
talking in terms that are so abstract. I mean certainly beauty, truth and goodness are
abstract concepts, but there is something that everyone experiences no matter where you
are in the spectrum of cultural evolution - there is something that is true - there is
something that good - there is something that is beautiful for you. And these things serve
to animate you.

We can feel them on the inside through the evolutionary impulse. Which is its own
jumping off point. Maybe we can get into that in a minute. Let me sort of pause here and
let you direct me a bit. Because beauty, truth and goodness is a wide and deep subject. And
I have already said somethings and I could go on and on.. but let me hand it back you, here,
for a moment.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well, I am just smiling, Steve, because you are totally cooborating
why I wanted you to spearhead this particular session. Because you are able weave in the
whole experience and deep understanding of evolution, along with these core values of
beauty, truth and goodness, and how they have shown up across history.
I wanted to make a couple comments in what you've said that I thought were quite
interesting because you've taken us back 50,000 years. And I loved the way you framed
what we were trying to do, or what has actually naturally happened is that we've
continuously improved - our frames of improvement. So improvement improves. It's a
kind of virtuous cycle, if you will.
And the other thing that I thought was really interesting was you talked about the octaves
of values, and you took us through the trajectory of world views, of the ways that we have
emerged from family systems of ego and then ethno, and then worldcentric that have
become more and more complex. You pointed out that there are things that you'd call
proto city in the early stages of human history. And that's something that ties in with the
proposition I make in my book, I don't consider all human settlements, "cities."
Cities I consider to be a fractal of the individual human system and not all urban
settlements are actually able to replicate all of the external bio physical and systemic
features of the human body. And at the same time, until they become a certain level of
complexity, they are also not able to embrace sufficently the consciousness or culture that
emerges when cities all the sudden have a way of ordering themselves, of ordering human
systems within the city, so they are not always clashing.
So I really appreciated that you gave us compass points to notice how that has emerged
along the way. And the other thing I guess just want to comment on too, is that in your
giving us this historical view; when I look at cities now, as you rightly pointed out, we
wouldn't consider something that was purely tribal necessarily a city. But cities include
all of these worldviews, all of these bio physical systems, all of these more complex
artifacts of structure and infrastructures and that's what makes them so dynamic and so
complex. And I consider them to be the most complex systems humans have created.
So when we try to look at it, I am trying to think about a new operating system for the city.
How do we consider it as a whole? And this seems to be how do we hold this very complex
system in a way that we can look at it from, you know, if we are in a plane we can look at it
from 30,000 feet and we can see the artifacts of the city. But I know that I share your
perspective that there is an inner life of cities that the real boundaries of cities are in
peoples consciousness and culture. And I think that the way you framed truth, beauty and
goodness is a very powerful way for us to consider the wholeness of the city, and yet in a
very dynamics and animated way.

So thank you for giving us an introduction for how you have seen both values emerge
along with human history and how you're seeing that truth, beauty and goodness actually
enact themselves as values.
So anything you'd like respond to with my comments there, Steve.
Steve McIntosh: Sure... I mean you know, there is lots. First, I remember having a
conversation some time back, about what we were speculating, some friends of mine and I,
about what the most significant technological breakthrough in the 21st century might be.
So for example, maybe we can point to the 19th century. Well, you know, it was the steam
engine, you know, that really transformed the industrial landscape during the 19th
century. The industrial revolution the steam engine as a piece of technology was at the
heart of it. In the 20th century you might say it was the airplane, you know, was kind of
the foundation for globalization and brought the world together in way that hadn't been
possible before. Although there's certainly lots of possible candidates as the most
significant technology of the 20th century.
As we were talking about what might emerge in the 21st century, you know, in terms of
the equivalent. The thing that dawned on me, maybe it's not a single piece of technology,
maybe it's the city. May be the city - as a systemic technological creation will demonstrate
a level of evolutionary emergence that can, in a sense, demonstrate in the outer realm in
the ITS space. This growing achievement of this next emergent phase of human culture
and consciousness, is one way of describing it as a whole systems. I think that is some
systems view of the world or how this science of dynamic systems is one of the
foundations of integral consciousness.
If we can somehow bring that level of consciousness to bear upon the sometime messy
ground level technological wonder we have created, which is the city, for both all its
achievement and conveniences and modern marvelous things that it brings, it is also sort
of the focal point of dysfunction. When you go in rural area, in an area where nature has
still not been totally taken over. The pathologies of human existence may not be as
evident. But you know in the cities for both, you know, their gleaming majesty and their
teaming slums, we can see the best and the worst of the human condition on display.
And so in some ways, perhaps through not only the external infrastructure, or a higher
level systemic integration that working at the city level may suggest, you know, this new
systems view of the world that comes from this evolutionary perspective will find a way to
manifest. The details of that are probably beyond my imagination at the moment. We
have to talk about this and think about this intensely for many years before we can even
start to glimpse. Your work, Marilyn, is a tremendous foundation for this high level
potential.
But still, cities are I guess one of the ways they are interesting is that they are sort of in
between level, a meso level, in this structure of the evolution of consciousness and culture.
Because through the internet we've been brought together on a larger scale, the internet
brings us together at a global level like never before, culturally. But it also allows for the
cohesion of subcultures and you know and smaller and smaller groups, because you know
what used to be a handful of individuals in a little local area can now be more directly
connected to other people who are in niched out form of culture and in small numbers.
But through the internet, they can be aggregated and have a stronger voice as a cultural.
And so you know the internet is both allowing cultural connections at the micro level like
never before, and at the macro level like before. And that's, of course, all happening online.
And so to think about where is the United States, where is - that's sort of the nation state
level, or the state level and speaking in terms of the United States or provinces in Canada,
that's still a level where there is no one place. Where we don't see culture spread out.
There used to be in the developed world, more of a unity between the traditional level and
the modernest level, even though modernism has emerged through the Enlightenment by
pushing off against the traditional level. There was antithesis between the traditional
religious civilization and the new science based modernist civilization. By the first half of
the 20th century we see, at least in many places, a kind of a truce between those
worldviews. So if you look at the culture of United States in the 50's, you know
modernism was the majority view, but it's morality and it's sort of grounding to the past
was through to its traditional roots. So the Establishment, if you will, had a greater sense
of unity. And then were able to do things like create the coming together to fight World
War Two - there was unity of purpose within the developed world or least those who
were in the allies.
And then of course even during the Cold War - the moonshot- the Apollo project in the
United States; part of what made that possible was the cultural solidarity, the sense of
patriotism that was born of a cultural unity that then became disrupted when post
modernism emerged as a significant political social structure in the 1960's. You can see
this move as the culture became polarized. So for example looking at the environmental
movement; many of the greatest achievements of the environmental movement were
made in 1970 or 1971 when you've seen the emergence of post modernism and it had
effect politically. Like, speaking in terms of the United States, the endangered species act
and the creation of the environmental protection agency. These where major evolutionary
achievements on the environmental front. But there have not been any other
achievements like that, or certainly not as significant since then.
And part of that is the post modern worldview, as it emerged and became more than just a
youth movement, more than just the hippies it got integrated within the larger society and
became, perhaps, 20 per cent of the US electorate -- and perhaps more in Canada. As post
modernism gained ground and became more of its own social structure, it became what
you might call kind of ghettoized, it moved beyond modernism and created it's own kind
of culture. And this, for good and for bad. It was good because it allowed post modernism
to consolidate and allowed the culture to differentiate from the mainstream in a more
coherent way. But this polarization of post modernism then resulted in a kind of a
breaking up of this truce that I mentioned; this solidarity between traditionalism and
modernism. Many traditionalist themselves became polarized. We see this in the rise of
the religious right in the United States. We see this in the 1980s, you know, first post
modernism emerges and then this kind of causes a backward lash from a rightward move
and a kind of a political empowerment of this polarization. So that's where we are now.
We can still see it here, again, the United States the government is subject to horrific
gridlock which is preventing in many ways, this polarization is preventing, the formation
of political will around important issues, like dealing with climate change.
So at the national level and these large levels of integration we see this current stage of
polarization. And some see this as backward, its a decay and the decline of the Roman
Empire. But there is another way of looking at it. While the polarization has certainly cost
us, culturally and politically and socially, we can also see this is how evolution develops,
right. There is a differentiation and then integration. And the differentiation is a necessary
step before a higher level of integration can be achieved.
So from this perspective, from an evolutionary perspective, we can begin to see why in a
sense the well intentioned politics of centrism. Many of the mainstream democratic
individuals in the United States have been sort of yearning for a transpartisan kind of
politics that can reclaim the unity of feeling as a country and indeed of a civilization that
we haven't had for many decades at this point. But I think it's a mistake, to think that we
are somehow going to glue back parts that have become differentiated, that we are going
to come together, in this kind of, you know, good faith form of unity where we just kind of
get over our differences.
There are real evolutionary forces happening that have created this polarization - this
polarization is a result of cultural evolution. But the forms of unity that we yearn for can, I
think, can really be achieved through history through a kind of integration that isn't just
gluing back together of the parts -- or kind of a muddling form of centrism - because you
can see, for example, through this polarization through the last 20 years - at least the
Republican Party of the Untied States is moving rightward. The Democratic Party is still in
its same center-left position that it's been in since Clinton. But the Republicans have
moved, the Republican Party as a center of gravity has definitely moved to the right.
So if, you know, if your strategy is to meet people in the middle as a centrist, and the other
party keeps moving the goal post to the right, they are essentially imploring you their
position even as you are trying to find a central position. So that is not what the
evolutionary worldview is trying to achieve. It's trying to achieve a transcendence that
builds on the importance gains made by postmodernism. We are trying to create a post,
post modern culture, and that is not going to happen through a great awakening. It is not
going to be where people all wake up and we realize that we are all one people and we can
just come together a higher level. Evolution doesn't work that way.
We are going to see incrementallism. We are going to see the evolutionary worldview,
which is only just now emerging at the horizon of history. We are going to see that begin
to take hold. Of course it depends on external conditions, as those get more acute. That in
itself will be a push people to an evolutionary way of seeing. And there is a push and pull.
The push is life conditions and the pull are these - this sense of transcendent gravity that
there is a higher better way. That we can improve what counts as improvement in our
culture now, and I think this is one of the great promises of the evolutionary perspective.
Because it can make things better by integrating as you define the intelligence, the
evolutionary intelligence is integrating all these other intelligences. In a way that hasn't
been achieved before, but we can now begin to see our way forward in doing just that.
So bringing back to the level of the city, at the level of the nation state and the level of the
global internet we can see this polarization. But at the city it provides a kind of way, the
polarization still exists, in all most every city in the United States and Canada contains
people who are both traditionalist, modernist and post modernist. Yet, some cities have
become places that have a center of gravity that can be post modern. It might be along
time before the United States is a post modern center of gravity. We can see there a place
in the United States that seem to exhibit that, like Portland, Oregon or Boulder, Colorado. I
mean it's my sense that there is post modern values are strongly enacted like in
Vancouver which strikes me as a very progressive place, where many positive
environmental policies have found implementation at the city level, that may encounter
greater resistance at a national level, where the influences of this polarization is stronger.
So I think cities are certainly not free from political gridlock that comes from polarization.
You can see value stages taking hold and provides the cities at this intermediate level of
organization that can allow certain worldviews to gain ground, and not have to be in a
culture war, so there are certain cities in the United States, some Southern cities where
traditional consciousness still has a very strong political hold - where the school districts
are still shy about teaching evolution itself, because they feel the philosophy of
materialism has been closely associated with the science of evolution is threatening to
their very culture. And indeed no matter how pluralistic and inclusive and welcome we
want to be of all spiritual perspectives, there is something about militant atheism and
materialism which is threatening to the solidarity of our culture in certain ways, although
even it has some positive attributes.
But in places like Portland for example where we see an environmental agenda, agenda's
for bicycle transportation, agendas for taking care of the homeless and the disadvantage,
in progressive ways that cant see them implemented - it is much more difficult to
implement at a larger scale. So that gives me hope, that as the evolutionary worldview
begins to gain ground, as we begin to see the social structures the external the IT version
of this consciousness begins to emerge, that the city will be the perfect laboratory in which
we can, at least certain cities, will be open to seeing this perspective and put into political
action in a collective way in and in an external way - that we can physically point to- I see
in the future, the promise of the city being the platform for the initial application for
integral consciousness to human politics.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well Steve, of course that is an area of converge around us- well
between you and I. Its interesting you are pointing at the city as perhaps the next major
technology that we'll be able to say has changed the human systems, and I would dare say
to change Gaia's face as well.
Steve McIntosh: Hmmmm
Marilyn Hamilton: I think that the whole inquiry of this conference, of how would we
create a new operating system for the city. Underlying that is the expectation that I have,
that because it is the most complex system that human's have created, because it's
actually a container we can have some hope of seeing the wholeness of. Because unless it
actually serves the whole living system of the human - from an integral perspective - the
way the consciousness, cultural, biophysical and structure and infrastructures arise
together, I think, that's one of the reasons it fascinates me about it. I see as a fractal of the
human system on an individual basis much more than any other system at either region
county, nation. And so that's one of the reasons I think that there's a considerable, both
opportunity and pressure, to make decisions and see ourselves as being able to improve
our condition in the city. That's one of the purposes, I think, that cities were created for in
the first place, to improve our condition.
I am even proposing something that I think underlies your perspective of evolution too, in
that I think that cities are going to discover they have a purpose. That their purpose is
actually global centric. That each city will, like an organ system in our body, discover they
have something to contribute to the whole, for not only the cities wellbeing, but for the
wellbeing of the planet. That would be one of the ways that I would see that sustainabity
and resilience is going to emerge over time. So because we don't have unlimited time this
morning to explore the many opportunities you have opened up to look at both evolution
and at these core values, maybe I can come back and finish this part of our interview to
ask you more about how you think we can actually build more beauty, truth and goodness
into our habits. I am not sure if you know Mark DeKay, he is the author of the book
Integral Sustainable Design. He was our speaker several session ago, and he really pointed
at how beauty influences peoples whole quality of life. We can make decisions as
designers to actually influence and impact people individual and collective sense. And
because beauty, truth and goodness are so core to your inquiry into both evolution and
how we are actually being channels, if you will, or expressions of an evolutionary impulse,
I wondered if you can comment on some of your ideas about how we create habitats in our
city that embody beauty, truth and goodness.
Steve McIntosh: Sure, well, let me say. Let me answer that in two ways. First the
evolutionary worldview at this point is in its infancy, its just emerging on the horizon of
history. And even though we can see pockets of integral culture in its nacent form in many
cities throughout the world, for example in Brazil in Sao Paulo is interestingly, there is a
lot of interest in this integral perspective. The week after next I am going to Frankfurt,
Germany and there is a pretty good community of integralists there, then in Paris for a
conference, on the evolution of consciousness that is occurring at the Sorbonne. So there
is definitely, there is worldwide movement, at least in the developed world or the
developing world in more sophisticated places, that this form of understanding, this post,
post modern perspective, this new definition of what improvement is defined and pursued,
it's an exciting development. But as I mentioned before, it is still a sub culture. There is
nowhere in the world that it's emerged as a demographic with enough political pull of its
own to have a significant impact on the city council or begin to implement these ideas in
structure external political ways. And that is not a failing, evolution takes time. And the
evolution worldview is coming on rapidly, and still a very small sub culture. That's more
united on the internet and it's globalized form, you know, in its infancy than we are not
ready to see, 500 integralist protesting in front of city hall that is of particular issue that is
of concern to them.
And so that is doesn't mean that we can't imagine or try to reach out for, if we did have
some kind of political power at the city level, how that would implement. And certainly
beauty is an important part of it. In my book I argue for the word goodness as the most
appropriate label for the magnetic center toward which all values move, and at their
highest most transcendent level the true and the beautiful are part of what it means to
make things better. That these values in a sense boil down to goodness, although they are
not uni linear and we can reduce it to goodness. But interestingly, the philosopher Alfred
North Whitehead conceived of goodness and truth as forms of beauty. He thought that
beauty was sort of the magnetic center of, or the best label for describing the most
fundamental aspect of perfection brought to bare within the physical realm.
So as you mention what Mark is saying about beauty, that is very important. You can see it
for example in cities like Santa Fe. It is a very wealthy city, it is a very progressive, and
indeed even a post modern city. And one of the things, if you build a building in Santa Fe
it's got - for the most part - they have strict codes so the historical character the Santa Fe
style is something that is perserved, and not significantly denigrated by forms of
architecture or billboards or other potential form of ugliness that might disrupt the
harmony of beauty that Santa Fe expresses, and that people feel. Indeed one of the
reasons why Santa Fe is - outside New York City - perhaps the center of art world in the
United States, certainly in the western United State, is because of the beauty of the city.
The beauty of the city makes the culture of art there, more possible.
So that's a kind of mini example of how as we come to understand beauty in a more
sophisticated way, that every one of these intelligences we have been talking about have
an important form of beauty that we would like to perserve. I think it is possible, in the
city, to have and eclectic mix of modernist form of beauty, traditional forms of beauty, post
modernist forms of beauty. There is a way to integrate those in a way that allows those
forms of beauty to bloom in there own terms and they can still be integrated. Now exactly
how that would work, now it may not work in a place like Santa Fe, but maybe in place like
Vancouver or Portland, the city is big enough and diverse enough that you can have all of
those - maybe not right next to each other, like interestingly in Paris, all the skyscrapers
are away from the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame, the financial district is not really in the
center of the city. There is two centers, there is the Champs Elysees and the Arc de
Triomphe and that classical part of Paris, that in many ways the architecture is expressing
a traditional esthetic. And then you kind of look down the road, across the river there is
this financial center of gleaming sky scraper made of glass that is expressing a modernist
esthetic. You know, and Paris is such a beautiful city they are able to segregate, but
integrate, these different forms of beauty within the city without making it un-harmonious.
And there are certainly cities that have been less successful and integrating those two
where the traditional and the modernist are chalk a block.
But you know it's interesting also when you think of Burning Man as a kind of city. Black
Rock City, you know a temporary city. But there you see the post modern esthetic so well
on display because so much the feel of Burning Man is kind of retro, it's a tribal. It's urban
tribal, its technological tribal. But the tribal vibe is pretty well expressed in Black Rock
City in it's architecture, in its culture, in its agreement out of which it's formed.
And this is kind of an interesting way of also appreciating what the evolutionary
perspective can bring because what we are trying to do in an evolutionary perspective is
reach back in history. And even though these structures, these historical structures are
still alive and in political power today, we want to create an integration. So we want to
kind of pull forward some of the enduring achievements of these other worldviews and
help them emerge beyond the conflict which characterizes their current political
polarization. And we can see this process of reaching back, beginning with post
modernism, right. Post Modernists have a great affinity for the tribal esthetics, tribal
clothing and hairdos, tribal tattoos, tribal enthogenic practices and you can see it in
Burning Man. That tribal culture, even though it certain has a post modern gloss, and it is
not simply a return to tribalism in its native form, but it is certainly there.
So that's the beginning of history as a beginning to reach back and reclaim some of the
very important achievements of past cultures that have been lost. And bring them
forward into the future. And it's natural that we would start with the tribal because in
some ways the tribal culture has been diminished and it only really exists in authentic
forms in very few places in the world. So it is not threatening. It is much easier to bring
and romantize tribal values and tribal esthetic and bring those into the present because it
is almost extinct. And so indeed, there is almost a duty to try to preserve those and
awaken those values within our larger internal eco-system. When it comes to traditional
values, those are a little more difficult to integrate and to appreciate and to celebrate and
to bring back into our world because those values are still threatening. Its the culture, at
that level, that just burned down the American Embassy and assassinated the Ambassador,
right. The traditional forms of consciousness are still very alive in the world, indeed the
majority of the world still has a pre modern center of gravity, so the threats are still there
so the values are more difficult to appreciate, right, because the pathology are woven
directly together with the values, And now the pathologies of tribalism are no longer in
our face, we can safely reclaim tribalism.
I don't think we can wait in terms of evolution to reclaim the best of traditional values and
the best of modern values and integrate those in a post, post modern perspective, because
those stages of history are going to be around for both good and bad through out the rest
our lives. And indeed, at least the rest of the century. So it is more difficult challenge that
this evolutionary perspective has, but I think we have a more sophisticated frame of
values and this gives us the tools we need to more forward in this next great phase of
history.
Marilyn Hamilton: So thanks again, Steve, for evoking a few more really powerful images.
I have pointed at Burning Man in my book, as well, as being a very interesting example of
how to actually create a pseudo city for a very limited period of time, on a very defined
space with a set of values, and an emergence that I think probably has quite a lot of the
qualities of beauty, truth and goodness. So thanks for reminding us about that. Along with
the sophistication of some place like Paris.
I know that when Mark DeKay and I where having our dialogue, we were exploring, just
has you have pointed, we now have a evolution of different interpretation of beauty and
truth and goodness in our cities. So, designers are actually faced with huge challenges to
be able to think in integrated terms, with integral consciousness, in order to actually
notice what might want to happen next.
One of the places that I often find of great interest is something Christopher Alexander,
the architect, has used in his writings to point to Saint Mark's square, in Venice, where you
can see over hundreds of years how that square has actually changed its shape as different
values where enacted - and still, somehow, its proportions today still feel to us today as
beautiful place to be. And therefore, the other thing, I would like use a pivot to start to
invite some questions from our audience is that you point to the differing perspectives,
what stands at the center of this trio? Is it goodness that attracts the beauty and the truth,
or is beauty that attracts truth and goodness? And I think others would put truth at the
center and say that is what attracts beauty and goodness. So they have this wonderful
holographic quality to them. And you have explained in both of your books, following the
influence that they have set of core values that impact our lives, both internally and
externally. So today's focus on evolutionary outer intelligence, really, this is just an
invitation to explore these capacities and values that emerge from beauty, truth and
goodness in an evolutionary way. And the city is a place of dynamic, very animated
experience of them these days.
So thank you Steve, are you ready to take a few questions from our audience?
Steve McIntosh: Certainly.
Marilyn Hamilton: Ok, I am going to invite Eric back in, and I think he has a few
questions. And let's invite you in to build a bridge between Steve and myself and the
audience.
Eric Troth: One of things to maybe start off with is this question of focusing on the city at
that level of scale, this meso level, because a lot times in post modern consciousness we
see this opening to the global and there is a lot of talk of global awakening, for instance,
and so forth. I hear you, both of you, drawing this back down. Steve, you said something a
little bit ago, we are not expecting this great global awakening but, there is an incremental
change that is drawn out of the life condition thats providing push, as well as the
transcendent pull. I am curious to hear you flesh that out a little bit more, because I think
sometimes there is a tendency in a certain level of culture, this post modern culture, of
extending way out. But there is value, also at focusing at the meso level of the city. So can
you bring that out a little bit more for us, please.
Steve McIntosh: Sure, well a good example of what to bring into the conversation would
be how certain cities in history have stood for the place where a particular form of culture,
a new worldview, a transcendent octave of beauty, truth and goodness have really
emerged, even while perhaps the majority of the city itself did not partake in that
emergence. The city becomes known as the place where that happened. So for example,
the Industrial Revolution in London, right, or the emergence the Renaissance in Florence,
or even San Francisco as a place where Post Modernism became emergent in the 60s. You
know, San Francisco even though the majority of San Franciscans were not post modern in
the 60s, it became a hotbed for that, it became an international symbol of the emergence
of Post Modernism. And the beautiful flourishing, you know that evolutionary emergence
of a new octave of values, San Francisco still benefits from that even, though it's a very
liberal city, it still a very modernist city. Although it has a very post modern population the
sense of San Francisco as beautiful and magical place in the world, it still has the halo of
being the platform for one of the places where Post Modernism emerged most definitively.
And I think the challenge of our age is to figure out which place, if history is going to
repeat itself, what's going to be the Florence of the emergence of the integral stage, which
city will become known as a hot bed of evolutionary thinking. Certainly there are many
candidates, Vancouver itself is a very lively place when it comes to the evolutionary
worldview. Marin County and San Francisco again, may serve that function, certainly a
large group of integralists that we encountered when Carter Phipps and I gave talk last
Wednesday. And even Boulder, Colorado to a certain extent, has a claim to being a place
where the evolutionary worldview is evident many evolutionary thinkers are hailing from
there. Who knows, maybe Sau Paulo, Brazil will be the place where a city begins to
generate a critical mass, in this new world view, that puts it on the map in a new and
important ways.
But let me go back to your reference of the push and the pull. You know, that's a principle
of Spiral Dynamics, right, that these stages of consciousness emerge through problematic
life conditions and then frame of reference of the value system, the value meme that is
emerging in history, that emerges as a result of the problematic life conditions, which
requires a new definition of improvement, if you will, to solve those conditions. And I talk
about this quite a bit, I developed this concept in my book, Evolution's Purpose, through
the idea of value gravity, that values do have a gravity that is pulling evolution from the
inside, through its influence on consciousness. Consciousness is an attracted to value.
Even the earliest forms of life are responding to the pull of value gravity in their striving to
survive and reproduce.
And then we can see as consciousness becomes more developed through biological
evolution, the values of biological wellbeing become more complex and begin to include
things like nurturing offspring and even having a little fun. And then of course with
humans, we see this entire epic saga of human history we are in, we can notice this
structure of stages of value development. So clearly, we're motivated to try to make the
world a better place. Because we still live in a world of trouble and suffering, and many of
us, especially those of us who have worked on developing their consciousness and our
spirituality, can feel this duty to try to make the world a better place. And, we begin to
understand it, the evolution of consciousness and culture through which the world has
been made better from the beginning, and through which the worlds problems have
emerged, right.

So modernism as a worldview has created more evolution, more cultural evolution, than
any worldview before or ever since. But it has also produced problems that threaten the
world like never before. Like all the dark pathologies of traditional consciousness, right,
in feudalism, oppression, slavery, church corruption, you know, we certainly point out the
cruelties of the traditional worldviews, as they did during the French Revolution. But
those pathologies pale in comparison to the, at least the potential pathologies of
modernism, in terms of environmental degradation, nuclear proliferation, the gross
inequality created by lawless globalization. These are all horrific new challenges that
require, they are life conditions that are putting pressure on the evolution of
consciousness and culture, like never before.
Post modernism is the initial response, but post modernism remains relatively, politically
impotent because it is kind of ghettoized. The post modern worldview is anti-thesis to
modernism and to our globalized civilization and for good evolutionary reasons. But in
order to provide the leadership that these life conditions call out for, obviously those of us
who are striving to build a integral worldview, are recognizing that we need to be able to
integrate this way of thinking more into the mainstream. If we are going to provide
leadership for the larger society to deal with these problems, we can't do it from a
perspective that rejects the civilization. The stance of antithesis is not as this higher
calling of the persuasive as the stance of synthesis that better appreciates the achievement
of modernist. And assure modernists, that we are not out to destroy their civilization, or
to go back to localized, non globalized economy with these agrarian values, with you know,
with a post modern ethic, that is a beautiful vision in some ways, but I don't think it's
evolutionary realistic.
I think, we can still be evolutionary realistic and be idealistic in our expectation that we
can make the world a better place, and we can achieve a more compassionate loving world
that works for everybody. Maybe not in the next five years, but certainly over the course
of human history. And these problematic life conditions that many of us are freaking out
over: climate change, and for good reason, but all is not lost. I think we have a moral duty
to not give up hope. And have a courage, born of the understanding that problematic life
conditions are powerful stimulators of evolutionary progress. So we can use the
polarization, the gridlock, the climate change, the nuclear proliferation, the disintegration
of many of structures of the Islamic World as they come into contact with modernity.
These are all bad problems. But they are also great opportunities to bring about an
exceleration of cultural evolution. And the evolutionary worldview is really beginning to
come up with some really appealing answers and perspectives, and potential solutions.
It's an exciting time to be participating in this nacent emergence, which could very rapidly
become politically significant even within our lifetimes.
Eric Troth: Hmmm. Thank you, beautiful response, Steve.
Getting some other questions coming in here and we have a couple from Terry that I am
looking how to weave those together in one. I think, it ties well to your traveling around
to a lot to different cities right now with your book tour. Terry is wondering, as you are
traveling around, how you see if integral consciousness having an impact on external
conditions in cities, and the small beginning influences, and how those differ from city to
city. And following up with a question too, will the city that gets identified as the first
integral city be one we recognize as having a lot of individuals who are at an integral level,
or will it be a city with an alignment and synergy between the different the levels of
development, so the city functions extremely well as a unity parts functioning together?
Steve McIntosh: Sure...well it is important to say now, again integral consciousness is a
very much of subculture. The evolutionary worldview is very small and it doesn't even
amount to a significant market to sell your book. I mean, you know I hope to reach out
with this way of thinking to the larger society. And I have certainly enjoyed the support of
the emerging integral community, as this teleconference is exemplifying. But it is still very
small, and it hasn't gained enough of an economic, political or social traction with the
numbers and the market forces necessary but this is again, to be expected. It is not a
failing of the evolutionary worldview that it hasn't sprung forth in any place where we can
see it actually changing the infrastructure or the social or political relations of the city.
Because it's only been in the last 10 years or so that it has been gaining ground and
becoming even identifiable as a form of culture, which we can authentically claim to be
post, post modern.
And so as I travel around, I don't see really any examples where we can say integral
consciousness is impacting the city. Getting a hundred people together for a talk, you
know, at a center, we are still emerging from within a progressive post modern culture.
And so, the places where progressive, post modern culture is well developed, and has a
demographic, economic niche within a city, those are the places where, as our
evolutionary makes clear, those are the places where we can expect this integral
perspective to gain purchase.
While I think there are people who can emerge and gain an integral altitude, or an integral
center of gravity, without coming directly out of post modernism, looking around at the
people who are fully embodying the integral perspective at this time, most of them have
gone through a period in their lives where they have been post modern or had a post
modern center of gravity. And it's only by gaining all the benefits of the evolution of
consciousness that can come from that center of gravity; they are beginning to awaken to
a new a set of needs. I mean being exit green, to use the jargon, is really the primary
market for people who are able to make meaning at an evolutionary perspective. Because
so many, post modern values are necessary for post, post modernism. If you try to
eliminate or vanquish or havent fully embodied the evolutionary achievements of the post
modern worldview, like any stage of evolution, it's depending upon and using the
accomplishments of the previous level. And so in order to use the accomplishments of
post modernism, in terms of concern for the environment, a spiritual sense ability,
multiculturalism, spiritual pluralism. These are all important values for the evolutionary
perspective, as well. It's just beginning. And where we are going to see it flourish I
ventured a speculative guess in my last answer. I can't really take beyond that because
possibilities are still open.
Marilyn Hamilton: And maybe I can jump in here, Steve, too. I am often asked is there an
integral city, and/or how is going to come into being. I keep pointing out, I see it is much
more how Terry framed in his question; the city will actually be about aligning and
synergizing between different levels of development and city functions will actually be
brought so that they are functioning well together, well in the sense of well being. So any
way that we can use metrics like beauty, truth and goodness, to notice how that is
happening, is really powerful me. I think the whole fractalness of the integral model that
allows us to see, that not only historically do we emerge through these different values,
gravities, but so do we as individuals across our lifetime. So we will always have that
dynamic in the city, I think. And we will notice that it is much less lively if we thought it
was all going to be just one set of values in play.

But I really like the ideas that you are proposing, that from an evolutionary perspective
that we are going to emerge, I would say, that one of the things that has to emerge is a
culture that can embrace us being together in these different ways, but also governance to
allow that to happen. I have talked with you about this, and it is a topic I would like to
convene at another time, because it is a pretty in depth topic. You have attempted to
explore it with your background in legal thinking, I think, it would be a very, very rich
conversation, so we will have to point to the as a future opportunity.
Steve McIntosh: Sure, but let me just respond to what you just said, and go back to
Terry's original question, the two questions in one. Let's take another stab at the idea the
question of will it the emergence of the evolutionary worldview as a distinct social
structure or will it come in the form of better integration of the existing social structures?
And, I think the answer is yes. [laughter]
Both, because we know, can this integration happen without the explicit appearance or
the metabolism of this integral perspective? You know, perhaps, it already is happening to
a degree. And the extent that that achieves the goals of the evolutionary worldview, then
I'll take it. I think it is possible for this integration to happen quite naturally and even
unconsciously, even in places where the solidarity of living in the same city has brought
post modernists, modernist and traditionalists together by the group loyalty of the city
even without an evolutionary perspective.
But, I think to take it all the way, in order to really create the kind of city that our
imaginations are beginning to suggest to us, as to how it can better in unimaginable ways,
or that we are beginning to imagine. I think the evolutionary perspective is going to be
necessary. I think a specific understanding of the evolution of consciousness and culture
that does not exist at the post modern level that the integral perspective brings, I think, we
are going to need to see that be something that is circulating in the culture, an awareness
that a certain percentage of the population has. While I don't think that we need a majority,
right. Ken Wilber has pointed out for example that the American Revolution occurred
when there was approximately only 10 per cent of the country in the United States that
had modernist consciousness. Yet that was enough to bring about the public solidarity
that was necessary to achieve the success of the Revolution.
And I think, that maybe perhaps, this number has been bantered about, although there is
no science behind it, that we are just hoping that 10 per cent of a cities population, if they
are able to make meaning using integral philosophy, being informed by some of the
specifics insights and understanding that come from this new way of seeing evolution
within our own consciousness, I think that will be, and indeed, it can't help but be. Because
if people are working to integrate these world views and they are doing it intuitively, and
doing it without an integral perspective, they are going to be led to an integral perspective
as a way of explaining and filling out what they are already trying to do, In a kind of proto-
integral or a natural way. Integral thinking is starting to percolate up it is becoming more
visible in the culture, especially the people who are willing to explore the frothy emergent
edge. Books like your book Marilyn, books like my book, we're little by little bringing this
perspective into the awareness of the culture. Those who are working to integrate will
find it useful and will themselves adopt it and exemplify it and work to bring it about.
Marilyn Hamilton: It's interesting point that you make around the 10 per cent. Ken and I
did have a little chat about that when we were talking in our interview. I actually would
point to the complexity literature, because I think there is science around that 10 per cent
and that's one of the reasons for convening something like this, as an inquiry, just to
embrace and invite in more people to speculate around what seems to be a natural
emergence. Because I think, we would suppose that evolution is going to continue
regardless as you say, whether integral is the label given to it. Something around
improving our ways of looking beauty, truth and goodness or any other way that we
define "improvement or quality of life" is a natural way that life actually continues to
survive.
So Eric I notice that we have a hand up in our audience. Would you like to call on that
participant?
Eric Troth: Yes, let's do that as we follow your lead on inviting more people into
speculate on this. Really interested to hear what you have to say, Steve go ahead, you have
a mic.
Steve McIntosh (audience): My name is Steve (unaudible), I know Marilyn. I have taken a
class from Marilyn early on, and I am looking forward to getting a copy of your next book.
My observation, I have been a city manager most of my career, all of my career mostly, and
I am fascinated by the work of Marilyn in that regard, but I am also interested in other
movements that seem tangential to city management and governance. In particular, the
permaculture movement which I find to be inherently integral even though I don't know
that many permaculturalists would regard themselves as integralists, in terms of integral
philosophy. I also think that the Transition Town movement has some inherent integral
qualities about it. And I don't think many in the Transition Town movement are really
integral students, per se. But I think, those represent an evolution of consciousness with
or without the overlay of the integral map and framework. I want to know what your
reactions are to that comment and whether you agree and disagree.
Steve McIntosh: Yeah, I try to avoid drawing bright lines between this is a post modern
form of culture and this is integral culture, you know, is that authentically integral. I mean,
we will take evolution wherever we can find it. And there are people who have, are able to
make meaning, from an integral perspective without any of the philosophical maps or
explanations that the evolutionary philosophy makes explicit. But I think that we are
beginning to see the integral worldview start to trickle down and even become
fashionable within the post modern discourse.
For example, the term evolutionary is now becoming a something that many post
modernists, lots of progressive people in culture are using that term, conscious evolution
and Evolutionaries in ways that don't, they are not necessarily aware of the tenets of
integral philosophy and, indeed, many of them have not considered that there are some
aspects of integral philosophy that are potentially subversive to a post modern worldview,
right. If we are reclaiming a vertical dimension of development, and finding a way to, in a
moral way, describe some forms of culture as more evolved than others. Some form of
consciousness more evolved than others, that flies in the face of the sensibilities of many
post modernists. But evolution occurs both through integration and differentiation and
the differentiation has to occur. I mean, if we going to try to reach for higher truth part of
the way that truth practice evolves distinguishing the higher truths from the less
developed truths.
And, for good reasons, the idea that some cultures or some forms of consciousness are
more evolved than others, you know, there was a time in history, the Victorians for
example, seized upon that idea. But because they had an immature understanding of it, it
led to a lot of mischief, right. It led to the justification of Colonialism and Imperialism.
Notions of some cultures being superior to others were really quite ethnocentric in terms
of their center of gravity. And so then there is a time in history when that evolutionary
thinking, that proto immature form of it, was rejected, right. And we had, well - no we are
not going to rank cultures we are not going to. We are going to have a democracy of
cultures where we recognize all cultures deserve respect and that there are these biases.
That whatever culture is claiming to be more evolved, is inevitably biased by their own set
of values.
Perhaps ironically, that move toward a more multi-cultural appreciation of diversity,
what it says iswas sense of cultural evolution right. Value relativism was a step forward,
even as it flatten the hierarchy. And so that gave us a time to reflect and evolve beyond
these immature beginnings of evolutionary perspective. Now we can reclaim it, because
we are using post modern values, we are using plurality, multiculturalism, egalitarianism,
compassion, this sense of respect for less developed cultures. They may be less developed,
but they are no less intrinsically valuable. And indeed that they have important values and
important achievements, important forms of culture that we not only need to respect, but
we need to adopt and awaken and reclaim within our own culture. So we are able to
regain this vertical dimension of development in a way that transcends the limitations of
post modernism. Where we able to reclaim comparative excellence, because if we want to
make the world a better place, if our concept of better is constrained by a sense of guilt in
terms of even claiming that something is better than something else, our ability to make
things better is going to be handicapped. So we are now able to say, look this vertical
dimension of values development can be implemented in a moral way, that does not lead
to ethnocentric notions of superiority but can still give us a stronger direction that
improvement is possible, and there is a way forward. As Clare Graves said, higher stages
are better, but sometimes the way to go higher is to better include the lower. The degree
of our transcendence can be measured by the scope of our inclusion.
And that is the big opportunity of this evolutionary worldview, is that can reach down and
include the healthy values of the entire spectrum of cultural development more effectively
than any other worldview has been able to do before.
Eric Troth: Thank you, thank you, appreciating that
We have another question on the dash board, I think would be a good follow up to what
you are talking about. Shanti writes: you mentioned how small the integral community is
at this point in time. The self identified community of those who have self identified are
just a small subset of those who have reached an integral level development, and he is
wondering do you have any specific suggestions for increasing the effectiveness of
outreach to bring more people into the fold of the continuing development of the
application and Integral City ideas? Higher level differentiation that you are talking about
seems like it has some juice in it.
Steve McIntosh: Sure well, if you look at history and see how these new octaves of values,
these new world views, how they have emerged. Again it goes back to the push and the
pull as we've discussed. The life conditions of a particular society are created by the very
success of those societies. It's that maturity of a given worldview that allows for an
opening of a new definition of improvement. A new frame of values that can define the
way forward, partial based upon the opening by the problems created by the success of
the last worldview. So, post modernism only effectively emerges where modernism has
been extremely successful, where people have already received most of the benefits that
were available. Like the 60s youth culture emerged out of the well educated, upwardly
mobile middle class demographic of the United States. The youth didn't need the values of
modernism because they have received most of the benefits thereby. They were able to
define a new set of values, a new way forward, taking for granted, they depended upon the
achievement of the previous level, that is how evolution works.
Molecules are built upon the achievements of the atomic level. Cells require water, they
require stable molecules of carbon, water and other structures to make their emergence
complete. We can see the same pattern in the evolution of culture. We can see the integral
worldview is just emerging now, as Shanti says, how can we make it, how can we work
with it.
This evolutionary pattern tells us that we can begin to metabolizes its values, right, so new
world views emerge through new forms of beauty and truth, and goodness. And
sometimes, the worldview is led by beauty, like in some ways much of the 60s emerged,
people were drawn in to 60s culture because of the art, because of the music. When they
heard Bob Dillon sing, "the times they are a changing", they can feel it, they can feel they
were a part of that and they were called in a sense through truth and beauty, but beauty
was kind of leading the way.
In the Enlightenment, people were drawn to that way of seeing because of the power of
the science and the philosophy showed how the reality frame of the previous worldview
was outmoded, and how this new form truth was more powerful. I think that this
evolutionary perspective is emerging in many ways, in goodness and new ideals of
morality, right. It is defining a new way to include and integrate all of these different
stages of cultures in a more complete way. But there is also the truth of it. Just like in the
Enlightenment, philosophy is becoming a lever of social progress. Philosophy is not just
some specialized academic thing. With integral philosophy it is becoming something that
non specialists can begin to really use, because it is through the philosophy that comes to
see this vertical dimension of development. It is through philosophy that we can begin to
appreciate how we can transcend the anti-hierarchical limitations of post modernism,
without regressing to a kind of cynical form of modernism. So how you can work to bring
the evolutionary worldview into the world is by practicing its truth, right. Practicing its
truth means learning and teaching.
Learning integral philosophy by giving yourself the equivalent of Master degree by
reading the books. There is really no excuse for that, while some may get these truths
through cultural assimilation, through their friends and through blogs, if you want to get
to the heart of it, you have to study it. That is one of the main ways that truth is imbibed.
But more than just reading the books, obviously the best way to make sure you getting the
truth value out of those books is by applying along the way, right, and doing your own
teaching. And now with the internet, you don't have to have a formal teaching position to
effectively teach this new evolutionary understanding. You can do it in a blog, in an
interview, in a study group, or go to a conference and participate in the culture that is
going on there.
And you can think of creative ways to teach the evolutionary worldview, exemplify,
embody it, apply it. It's almost like, I think of it in terms of the California Gold Rush, we
just discovered this new worldview there is giant nuggets to pick up, to serve us
opportunities, that we can begin to implement these. But creative discerning what those
opportunities are, is part of it makes it yours, part of what makes you able to metabolize it
because you see something richly, you make a discovery of a way of serving the culture
with this new truth. And it takes a keen eye, it takes the embodying of the truth to begin
with to see and service opportunities and be applied or communicated or given out.
But I would say the fields are ripe for harvest because this current condition of cultural
polarization and the maturity of the post modern worldview. Even though it's going to be
decades while that is still emerging, we can see that has sort of stabilized as a social
structure, it has well defined structures, well defined values, well defined boundaries as a
worldview. And the existence of this is a powerful life condition for us all to participate in
this emergence of this next great phase of history, this post, post modern perspective.
Steve, it is Marilyn here and I would just like to appreciate how you have managed to sum
up the inquiry we had today of evolutionary outer intelligence by invoking many of the
other intelligences that we have looked in the past weeks.
You have talked about the cell as the city and the city as a cell - that was an image that
Elizabeth Sahtouris brought us in the first week. And last week we looked at all the
strategic intelligences that certainly involved looking at the city as a metabolism. That
came out with Gil Friend and the navigating intelligence.
You pointed to the truth that emerged from Enlightenment and certainly when we looked
at Inquiry through all of its emergent modern forms of manifestation, so everything from
appreciative inquiry to generative action research have emerged on our lips and our
designing. And also, I'd say that ways that you have reminded us about how goodness
itself, along with beauty and truth, also evolve.
And we looked last week at meshworking and of course you know Don Beck's work about
actually aligning all of the truth in our city so that we can create something that is well,
and is able to actually perform and achieve the goals that we set out.
So I really appreciate that you are able to integrate into our exploration both evolution
and the values of truth, beauty and goodness.
And finally I would like to acknowledge you for pointing to the incredible of value and act -
- the enactment of learning and teaching. Through your own work and your own writing,
you have inspired me to go back to the book as I wrote Integral City and a lot of people
have asked me, where is the chapter on spirituality in that book. I always felt that it was
very much inspired by Spirit in the first place, and that was who the real author. But in
order to respond to that question, I actually did write an article at the invitation of German
engineering journal called Trilogue. And it has been published as the spiritual practice for
the human hive, or the Integral spirituality in the human hive. And learning and teaching
and your ways of framing beauty, truth and goodness really figured in, what I created as a
fifth map to look at the city.
So I would just like to thank you , Steve for coming to join us today in the conference of
Integral City 2.0 and looking for a new operating systems for city and bringing your
wisdom about the intelligences of evolution and outer intelligences. Thank you so much,
Steve.
Steve McIntosh: Thank you Marilyn, I must say we are in this together, and your work has
inspired me as well. I am delighted to be here today and to participate in this excellent
conference you put together.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you and I look forward to our future work together.

1
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Speakeis: Leo Buike, Beth Sanueis
Bost: Naiilyn Bamilton
Bate: Septembei 2S, 2u11
@-6 A23B- is Biiectoi of Integial Leaueiship at the Nenuoza College of
Business, the 0niveisity of Notie Bame. Fiom Becembei 2uuu thiough
}une 2uu8, he seiveu as Associate Bean anu Biiectoi of Executive
Euucation. Buiing his tenuie as associate uean, Notie Bame Executive
Euucation incieaseu total ievenues neaily 2uu%, successfully
inauguiateu a new Executive NBA piogiam in Chicago, achieveu a top 1S
woiluwiue ianking (Business Week) foi custom executive piogiams, anu launcheu seveial
new executive piogiams, incluuing the highly acclaimeu Executive Integial Leaueiship
Piogiam. Piioi to joining Notie Bame, Buike seiveu in a vaiiety of ioles at Notoiola, Inc.,
incluuing Biiectoi anu Bean of the College of Leaueiship anu Tianscultuial Stuuies within
Notoiola 0niveisity. Be was a key aichitect of piemiei leaueiship uevelopment piogiams
in both China anu Inuia. Leo Buike holus a B.A. in sociology fiom the 0niveisity of Notie
Bame, a N.A. in Political Science fiom Inuiana 0niveisity, anu a N.S. in 0iganization
Bevelopment fiom Auioia 0niveisity.
A-,< :7(=-30 NCIP, RPP (Albeita), NCIP (Canaua) is Piesiuent of
P0P0L0S Community Planning Inc., in Eumonton, Canaua. Beth woiks
acioss Canaua with goveinment, business anu community oiganizations
who stiive to cieate cities that seive citizens well, anu citizens that seive
cities well. Beth is shepheiuing city uecision-making into a new eia wheie
the following aie fiont anu centei: piagmatic puipose, community health,
fiscal anu economic sustainability, enviionmental iesponsibility, cultuial iesponsibility
anu public conveisation. Beth is piesiuent of the Albeita Piofessional Planneis Institute
anu is a coipoiate auvisoi to the NcBonalu Sustainability uioup, Inc. She is co-founuei of
the Centei foi Buman Emeigence Canaua anu a membei of the Integial City auvisoiy
boaiu. While looking foi a publishei, Beth is blogging hei book, Nest City: The Buman
Biive to Thiive in Cities. Beth is seiving as Piogiam Co-Besignei, Inteiviewei anu
Baivestei of the Integial City Expo anu eLab.

C73%$'( D7"%$,6(E We aie going to look at a combination of intelligences ielateu to the
Evolutionaiy anu 0utei intelligences. I am going to stait my questions with Leo. Leo is
woiking in both the fielus of leaueiship uevelopment anu he has a ieal inteiest in the
Commons. So Leo, I finu that a ieally inteiesting polaiity, if you will, paitly because I often
think about focusing on leaueiship tiaining anu uevelopment as something wheie the
inuiviuual looks at themselves - anu ceitainly in this intelligence that I call 0utei
Intelligence, I look at how leaueis act anu behave, how we can notice them fiom the
outsiue. So I wonuei if you coulu tell me a little bit about how you appioach teaching
leaueis, anu how uo you manage to connect that to youi inteiest in the Commons.
@-6 A23B-E Suie. 0vei the last, I'u say, uecaue oi so, we've seen that leaueis obviously
have to woik moie anu moie effectively in all kinus of collaboiative aiiangements, anu so
oui sense of just the leauei as a peison is being supeiseueu by the leauei in a collective
context. Anu oftentimes what we have when we opeiate in a collective - it might be a
small team, it might be cieating some kinu of collaboiative enviionment foi innovation, it
might be tiying to biing many citizens to come togethei in some kinu of uecision-making
piocess - whatevei it is, it involves ueploying a ceitain set of skills that go beyonu what
we have tiauitionally thought of as leaueiship uevelopment. The othei facet, if you will, is
the fact that when we look at the paiauigms in which leaueis opeiate, we tenu to uiaw
fiom what oui histoiical expeiience is, anu that's wheie the Commons, I think, comes into
viviu focus. Because when we think of noimal uay-to-uay activity as an amalgamation of
woik that is happening in eithei the piivate sectoi oi in the public sectoi, we get, ieally, a
limiteu view. Anu when we inject the paiauigm of the Commons, that opens up a bioauei
set of possibilities anu solutions that we ieally neeu touay foi a iange of issues we aie
facing.
C73%$'(: So this sounus like it has ieal piomise foi thinking about what leaueis aie facing,
fiom the global intiactable pioblems that aie actually showing up in all of oui cities in
both what I heaiu you say, piivate anu public - anothei kinu of polaiity - eithei you woik
in piivate oi you woik in public oiganizations oi sectois - anu that the Commons pioviues
an alteinative view. It sounus like it's not just an alteinative, but actually is something that
coulu tianscenu anu incluue them both - woulu that be a coiiect inteipietation.
@-6: It ceitainly coulu, uepenuing on how it's fiameu altogethei. If we take an issue, foi
instance, like climate change, oi caibon emissions - a huge issue - anu the public sectoi
has a ceitain set of solutions that it tiies to ueploy ineffectively. The nation-state mouel
has not been effective at iesolving this, anu coming to tieaties that actually woik, anu we
see now that some cities, at the public sectoi level, at the local level, aie attempting to uo
things on theii own with iegaiu to caibon piouuction in theii own juiisuictions. The
piivate sectoi takes a look at it. 0kay, what aie the solutions to any given issue thiough
the mechanism of the maiket. Anu so we get into all kinus of aichitectuies, like tiauing
caibon cieuits anu those type of things, which have some seiious flaws in theii logic.
The paiauigm of the Commons says, hey look, fiesh aii uoesn't belong to anyone. It is to be
stewaiueu by eveiyone. Anu the aii quality in China actually affects the aii quality in the
0niteu States; anu the aii quality in vaiious paits of the 0niteu States affect othei paits of
the 0S oi Euiope, as paiticulates make theii way aiounu the woilu. Anu theie must be an
unueistanuing of how these common iesouices that aie necessaiy foi fully functioning life
ieally belong in a uiffeient uomain than can be monetizeu by the piivate sectoi oi
iegulateu by the public sectoi. It neeus to be a supeioiuinate set of values anu stiuctuies
to piotect oui common inheiitance.
C73%$'(: That woiu "supeioiuinate" connecteu to a set of values sounus like it ielates to
oui ways of thinking about a soit of evolutionaiy tiajectoiy in which leaueis can be
effective. We heaiu fiom Steve NcIntosh eailiei touay about the tiajectoiy that goes fiom
egocentiic to ethnocentiic to woilucentiic to cosmocentiic - wheie it can go beyonu
woilucentiic - anu that's |similai to howj you fiameu this inteiest in the Commons - as
though qualities, capacities, the manifestations of oui evolutionaiy inheiitance on uaia -
on Nothei Eaith - that we all have a iesponsibility to actually stewaiu them. Anu that
leaueis have a paiticulai iesponsibility peihaps in an enabling that to happen. Coulu you
tell us, Leo, what all is incluueu in the Commons, besiues aii.
@-6: Yes theie aie many ways to think about the Commons, anu the paiauigm is being
iefineu anu giowing as we speak. So theie aie iesouice-ielateu Commons. Theie aie the
oceans as a gieat example, foiests, piaiiies, anu so foith. Theie aie uigital-ielateu
Commons. 0pen souice softwaie is an example of the uigital Commons, anu the piouucts
that come out of that, such as Wikipeuia, as an example. Theie aie cultuial Commons -
language is an impoitant pait of oui cultuial heiitage, anu it is a pait of the Commons.
Theie aie institutions that coulu be Commons unuei ceitain ciicumstances, such as
libiaiies anu public spaces in cities.
0ne of the emeiging views |is thatj in oiuei foi any kinu of iesouice to actually be a
Commons, those that paiticipate in that iesouice aie Commoneis (as we call them), they
must have some input into the goveinance of that iesouice. Anu thiough the woik of such
leauing figuies as Bi. Elinoi 0stiom, who uieu eailiei this yeai, anu won the Nobel Piize in
2uu9 foi hei woik on the Commons - she has shown that people in a bioau spectium of
intellectual capacity anu sets of abilities aie capable of the kinu of coopeiative
ielationships that aie neeueu foi the management of successful Commons. Theie aie
ceitain iules that she uncoveieu that woik bettei in |somej ciicumstances than otheis.
Anu as we come to unueistanu that the full sum of the uimensions that make human life
woithwhile ieally must be shepheiueu foi futuie geneiations, we can begin to stietch
beyonu these constiaints, ieally, of public veisus piivate - public goous, piivate goous.
C73%$'(: So then Leo, tell me a little bit moie about how you manageu to shaie this new
infoimation oi emeiging fiame to leaueiship stuuents. I always think that, especially
peihaps in the Ameiican cultuie, wheie theie is a lot of focus on hypei-inuiviuuation, that
this might be a iathei challenging thing to uo. What is the iesponse of youi NBA classes,
of youi othei leaueiship giaus.
@-6: That's inteiesting. I staiteu with an expeiiment a couple of yeais ago. I teach some
NBA classes, anu mostly I teach executive NBAs, who aie an oluei gioup of stuuents, anu
tenu to be piofessionals. Nany of them aie uoctois, lawyeis, CE0s, people iunning
businesses, manageis. I went thiough an exeicise of asking them how many hau chiluien.
Anu I woulu say in the class wheie I teach executive NBAs, maybe 9u peicent hau kius.
Anu theii aveiage age is late-Sus to miu-4us anu so theii chiluien aie mostly youngei.
Then I askeu them what kinu of woilu they want foi theii chiluien, anu when theii
chiluien aie auults. Anu they will uelineate the qualities of the woilu that they want - a
woilu that's not, you know, iiuuleu with violence, a woilu wheie most people have
enough to eat, a woilu wheie the aii is clean enough to bieathe, a woilu wheie theie is
oppoitunity to be euucateu, to be able to expanu theii hoiizons - whatevei it might be.
Then we take a look at some of the issues that we aie facing touay globally, anu look at the
inteiuepenuencies in those issues. Then looking at an aveiage timefiame, a soit of meuian
age foi theii chiluien, when we woulu want this set of conuitions that aie aspiiational,
that they have expiesseu, anu kinu of look wheie we aie touay. It becomes pietty eviuent
that theie is no cleai path fiom heie to theie. Anu what we ieally neeu to uo, given that, is
to iefiame oui context. So looking at the Commons is a viable way of uoing that.
This past semestei, one of the things that I inviteu stuuents into was an optional pioject
that most of the stuuents opteu foi - to take uuiing the couise that I was teaching an
online couise - an intiouuctoiy couise on the Commons that Notie Bame, my univeisity,
anu the 0niteu Nations jointly uevelopeu. It was actually uevelopeu foi 0N uiplomats on
the Commons, but it was open to anyone at the time.
The iesponse that I got was that the stuuents iepoiteu that they weie totally openeu by
this expeiience. They hau no iuea of eithei the bieauth of the Commons, oi the stiategies
that we useu to close oi limit the Commons. Anu many saiu, how uo we get this into giaue
school cuiiiculums, so that kius coulu leain the potential in the Commons togethei. In this
case, when you link the stuuy of the Commons to a set of values that incluues the well-
being of theii families, theii chiluien, it enables them to move beyonu the kinu of noimal
constiaints that show up as, "me as heioic leauei," anu to consiueiing something bioauei.
C73%$'(: That's a wonueiful stoiy anu example of how people can be impacteu by a
globalcentiic peispective, initiateu by the 0N anu that Commons couise. Anu it's almost as
if you'ie uesciibing what one of oui Navigating |Intelligencej piesenteis talkeu about, as a
foim of backcasting. You aie asking people to step into the shoes of theii chiluien, imagine
what kinu of a woilu they want, anu then to give them a pictuie of a veiy uiffeient way of
achieving that than simply monetizing oi iegulating it.
I know you have also influenceu not only youi stuuents, but, I believe, youi son. Anu I
know also, unfoitunately, we won't be able to keep you foi oui entiie session touay, so
befoie you have to leave, I wonuei if I coulu invite you to tell us a stoiy of how youi son
ueciueu to actually uemonstiate his own foim of leaueiship in his neighboihoou.
@-6: Suie, I'u be happy to. Be is an NBA giauuate of Notie Bame. 0ne of the
extiacuiiiculai activities that he was offeieu, actually went along with anothei one of my
colleagues I was speaking about eailiei - ueoige Poi anu I - we weie hosting an online
couise in the Commons - soit of a Commons 1u1. }osh, my son, hau taken this couise a
couple of yeais ago. Be anu his wife moveu into an aiea in Chicago that is kinu of a
ueveloping neighboihoou aiea. Some homes aie quite nice, anu some neeu ieal iepaii, anu
theie aie some vacant lots in the aiea - |the neighboihoouj is in tiansition - veiy vibiant.
Two uoois uown - two lots uown fiom them - was a vacant lot. }osh hau the iuea, coulu
this be tuineu into a community gaiuens. Coulu we cieate a Common gaiuen heie foi oui
neighboihoou.
Be hau a ieal estate agent check out to see who owneu the lot. It tuins out it's owneu by a
non-piofit uevelopment coipoiation. Anu it's paitly owneu by the city of Chicago. Be
navigateu thiough the uevelopment coipoiation, anu obtaineu, basically, a fiee lease to
tuin the piopeity into a community gaiuen - a Commons gaiuen. Be hau no iuea if anyone
woulu be inteiesteu in paiticipating - anu in this paiticulai neighboihoou, theie weie a
lot of young families with young kius - it's a wonueiful neighboihoou.
Be put up a sign in fiont of this lot with his phone numbei, anu lo anu beholu, people
staiteu to call. They got togethei anu oiganizeu what they wanteu to uo, anu they
uesigneu a coopeiative gaiuen in this city lot that noimally woulu've hau a house on it, but
it got toin uown. Anu they hau to biing in soil. They hau to figuie out how watei woulu be
supplieu heie; how it coulu be piotecteu, when the giowing seasons woulu be, anu how to
allocate space. Now they aie in theii thiiu yeai. Befoie the enu of the fiist yeai, they weie
maxeu out. They can accommouate Su families, so Su families have beus within this
coopeiative gaiuen. Theie aie ceitain kinus of tasks that they shaie, anu also some of the
outputs. Now theie is a long waiting list. They aie also teaching othei inteiesteu citizens
on how to ieplicate this with othei vacant lots within theii neighboihoou anu othei
neighboihoous.
They also inviteu the city to paiticipate, anu the local alueiman came anu uiu a bit of
iibbon cutting when they hau an official opening. Now the uevelopment company says
they want to keep this as a community gaiuen as an example of what can be uone to ieally
inciease the livability of the city. So it's just been a wonueiful, self-oiganizing success
stoiy that took some initiative on }osh's pait, anu unueistanuing the fiamewoik of the
Commons. But then just the invitation foi neighbois to finu a way to connect them
togethei |was the confiiming actj.
C73%$'(: Well Leo, thanks foi telling us that stoiy, because it's a ieally poweiful, liveu
example }osh living leaining, not just leaving it on the shelf. Anu it illustiates how a new
agenua foi leaueiship can actually open us up to think about both Evolutionaiy anu 0utei
Intelligence, anu how something like a iefiame aiounu the Commons can take us way
beyonu wheie we have been piacticing oui leaueiship befoie.
So I'u just like to thank you foi being able to spenu a shoit time with us touay on the
Integial City 2.u 0nline Confeience anu I look foiwaiu to fuithei conveisations, because I
know oui inteiest in the Commons will continue beyonu the enu of this confeience. So
thank you.
@-6: Sounus veiy goou Naiilyn. Anu thank you foi the vision you hau to oiganize this
confeience. A gieat contiibution.
C73%$'(: You aie most welcome. I know that we aie joineu by that - that Nothei Eaith is
actually calling cities as uaia's Reflective 0igans to wake up in new ways, anu giow up anu
take iesponsibility foi the Commons, amongst othei things.
So, Beth, you have been sitting theie veiy patiently. Anu I gave you a iathei piovocative
intiouuction, telling people that when I fiist met you, you weie eithei just completing youi
woik, oi weie still immeiseu as a city plannei foi the city of Foit NcNuiiay, which is the
city in the miuule of the tai sanus, anu has a paiticulai global focus that isn't paiticulaily
positive. I'u just like to ask you how on eaith uiu you manage to come up with the Nastei
Coue, which is about looking aftei youiself, looking aftei each othei anu looking aftei this
place. Wheie uiu you have the iuea that that was something that coulu seive you in a
habitat like that.
A-,< :7(=-30: Well, you aie making me think way back to how I came up with the Nastei
Coue. I woulu have to say it was a little ieu book that I believe I saw my mom ieauing,
which was Rabbi Shmuley's !" $%&'()*+,-%&* ,% .+'( /-,0 1%2) $0-34)(&. If I iecall
coiiectly, it is not quite the Nastei Coue, but it pietty much tuineu into the Nastei Coue.
As I aiiiveu in Foit NcNuiiay in 2uuS, the city itself was in, I'm going to use the woiu
"ciisis," anu I iecognize that is all ielative aiounu the woilu, but in teims of the life
conuitions of Foit NcNuiiay, it was pietty ciazy. The amount of uevelopment that was
taking place aiounu it was making it ieally uifficult foi basic seivices to be pioviueu, oi
enough housing to be pioviueu, oi the housing that was being pioviueu was iiuiculously
expensive, making it paiticulaily uifficult foi the city manageis. so the health system, the
police system, the school system anu the municipal goveinment, to attiact any employees.
Which, of couise, was neeueu to builu the city to house all the people that weie coming.
As I walkeu into that, I also walkeu into, as I usually uo, situations wheie the life
conuitions aie paiticulaily challenging. Then I neeu to iesponu in kinu, anu then I leain to
giow anu uo new things. What was paiticulaily obvious in my coinei of oui municipal
goveinment was how ieally haiu anu put upon we weie as a gioup of people, with
uemanus fiom my boss, the city managei, anu fiom city council who was getting intense
piessuie fiom oui piovincial goveinment in Canaua to get things oiganizeu foi all this
uevelopment. Anu then, of couise, the feueial goveinment, too, because they ieceive
pietty nice ioyalties fiom the oil that is ietiieveu fiom the sanu in the noitheast coinei of
Albeita.
So lots of piessuie at eveiy tuin. Nothing seemeu to be going iight, anu in oui little coinei
in oui uepaitment we just iealizeu, well look, eveiything's changing. We uon't have any
plans that aie ielevant foi what is happening. Nunicipalities typically have a uevelopment
plan to lay what pipes anu ioaus anu neighbouihoous aie going to happen wheie, anu we
hau alieauy passeu the 2S-yeai plan that was alieauy in place. We weie liteially making
uecisions about wheie the city woulu giow, as it was being built. I was pietty ciazy, anu
we just ueciueu as a gioup of people that, look, whatevei is happening aiounu us, oui fiist
oiuei of business is to make suie that each of us aie well. That oui ielationships with each
othei aie well, anu whatevei it takes to soit all that stuff out, we neeu to uo it. That oui
ielationships with the people we woik with, othei people insiue municipal goveinment,
with othei levels of goveinment, citizens, the public, with civil society, anu of couise the
people that aie physically going out anu builuing the city, that that was impoitant. Anu
that all of oui uecisions neeueu to make suie that what we ieally weie uoing was looking
aftei this place. Which was the city that we weie builuing. Anu of couise it's in a context of
the Commons. As I was listening to Leo, I staiteu to think in a way I haun't thought of
eneigy in Albeita befoie, ieally being something that is common to all of us. That it's
something we all neeu. I know when I aiiiveu in Foit NcNuiiay, theie was a pait of me
that ieally stiuggleu about, oh, well we aie builuing this city, anu at some point in time it's
not going to be neeueu, because we aie not going to neeu oil all of the time. Anu then you
iealize, well actually, the oil ieseives that aie theie, we coulu have this city theie simply
woiking on oil ieseives foi 2uu yeais. 4u yeais with cuiient technology. With futuie
technology, easily anothei 2uu. So that kinu of make me think about things a little bit
uiffeiently.
But the whole context of Foit NcNuiiay, anu the oil sanus in Albeita, anu in Canaua, anu
on the planet, is, of couise, a veiy political, hot issue. As I think about it, the city of Foit
NcNuiiay is theie in existence because of the life conuitions of the eneigy Commons on
the planet. The way oui cities cuiiently opeiate, we neeu oil anu gas. That is the iesouice
that comes fiom this paiticulai coinei of Albeita. 0thei pockets as well, but it's ieally an
inteiesting way to look at this, as the Commons, in that collectively, all the cities on planet
Eaith have cieateu the conuitions foi those iesouices to neeu to be extiacteu. Which
means we aie also cieating the conuitions foi ievisiting oui eneigy use anu eneigy
consumption, hence oui city uesign anu oui piactices as citizens. Those neeu to be
ievisiteu as well.
So this is entiiely of oui cieation. The political uiscouise is inteiesting, because, of couise,
theie aie folks that think that it is ieally, ieally bau; we shoulu stop. Theie aie otheis that
think, well, theie is money to be maue, so this is pait of the natuial economy, anu this is
what people want, anu it's what we can sell. So of couise business is going to be in theie to
sell it. None of this is wiong, but it is an inteiesting way to look at the public anu piivate
inteiests heie as the Commons, iathei than as a public anu piivate inteiest. I am weaving
togethei what Leo saiu with youi questions. I'll stop theie, Naiilyn, anu let you jump in.
C73%$'(E 0K Beth. That's a ieally inteiesting iesponse to my oiiginal question as to how
uiu you come up with the Nastei Coue. Because you have taken it back to, I think, a coie
uesign challenge. When I have tiieu to fiame the Integial City as a living, complex auaptive
system, the most complex system that humans have yet cieateu, it actually uepenus on the
metabolism of eneigy anu mattei anu infoimation. When we look at a city, who seems to
have a puipose of oiganizing itself to suppoit the extiaction of eneigy foi the benefit of
piobably most othei cities in the woilu. Because with somewheie between Su-9u% of
humans living in cities, uepenuing on wheie they aie locateu in the woilu, we all, as you
point out in oui cities, neeu eneigy in oiuei to actually suivive anu auapt. So the uesign
issue that you point to that impacts what goes on in Foit NcNuiiay comes fiom a
woilucentiic, a globalcentiic peispective, anu how humans have uevelopeu theii cities as
complex auaptive social systems that neeu that kinu of exteinal eneigy in oiuei to suivive.
A-,<E It's inteiesting to think of Foit NcNuiiay in the context of a planet of cities, because
it is the habitat of the planet of cities that has maue Foit NcNuiiay exist as it is touay.
C73%$'(E That's iight. So in fact, if theie wasn't such a thing as a planet of cities, we
woulun't have the neeu to go anu extiact all that oil in the tai sanus, anu to actually have
extenueu oui technology so that we coulu access it. Because foi a long time, when oil was
much moie fieely available thiough othei moie tiauitional methous, the tai sanus which, I
have not been theie, Beth, but you coulu coiioboiate this, it's not just that you uig it up. As
you walk along the usual lanuscape, it actually is exuuing fiom the giounu. It is pait of the
actual habitat that's theie. Is that a coiiect unueistanuing on my pait.
A-,<E Yes, absolutely. You can canoe the iivei anu along the banks of the iivei, it's black
anu oozing.
C73%$'(E Anu that was black anu oozing long befoie anybouy fiom the oil anu gas inuustiy
tuineu up to extiact it.
A-,<E Yes.
C73%$'(E So it was anu is a iesouice that we eithei choose to collect anu piocess, oi not.
So I finu this an inteiesting uiscussion, again, in teims of thinking of the intelligences that
we aie looking at. Evolutionaiy anu 0utei intelligence, if we uiun't have oui planet of
cities, if we haun't uevelopeu the technology, if we uiun't have the life conuitions that saiu
we neeu to access that eneigy iesouice, woulu we even bothei. It takes a huge amount of
effoit to uo it, uoes it not.
A-,<E 0h, absolutely. Anu you know, I iecall a conveisation with my gianufathei as a chilu,
so in the eaily 198us, anu him uesciibing to me. at that point in time, obviously, the
economy in Albeita hau a lot to uo with oil anu gas. Bowevei, he was pointing out to me,
you know, as a iesouice, that's only going to last so long. Anu what's inteiesting, if you go
up to noitheast Albeita, theie's all kinus of oil in sanu. But we uon't yet have the
technology to extiact the oil out of it. Then you move aheau a couple of uecaues, anu the
technology is theie because we neeu it. So the technology has evolveu along with oui
neeus to have that technology. I uon't have any uoubt, to be honest, that as we become
moie anu moie conceineu, anu I believe iightly so, aiounu oui methous of extiacting the
oil fiom the sanu, that we neeu, that we aie, anu I can see this happening in Albeita, you
know, that the companies, anu oui piovincial goveinment is uefinitely suppoiting the
companies to come up with bettei, smaitei anu enviionmentally fiienuliei ways of
extiacting that oil to minimize the impact that we aie having. So the technology is still
changing. It's constantly changing. Wheie it will go next, I am not up to snuff on the
technologies. But it is a iegulai occuiience in the heaulines heie in Albeita about the
vaiious companies uoing uiffeient things. It is also a iegulai occuiience now that the
owneiship of the companies is also in flux. This moining's news, foi example, theie's a
possible connection between a company out of Inuia anu a company out of China meiging
so that they can bettei seive the neeus of theii emeiging anu buigeoning cities that they
aie wanting to secuie the iesouice. They neeu the powei foi those cities. So they aie going
to use it until such time theie is a bettei technology. Foi any of us that aie woiiieu about
what's happening, that's the tension that compels us collectively as a planet of cities anu
citizens, I believe, to finu that new technology.
C73%$'(E So Beth, as a leauei in that community, you hau actually positional leaueiship, so
you coulu influence the council, because you weie on staff. But you also liveu theie as a
citizen, anu inteiacteu with neighbois anu families. What was youi view of the
oppoitunity foi leaueiship in that community. Coulu you uemonstiate it within the
community itself. Biu you have oppoitunities to uemonstiate it when you went "to the
outsiue woilu".
A-,<E As a community, it was absolutely phenomenal, anu people I have stayeu in touch
with that aie still theie aie also phenomenal. We iealizeu, oi we uiu a quick calculation
when we weie fiist theie, that because the population was giowing so quickly, that 6 out
of 7 people at least aiiiveu in the last five yeais. So it wasn't like othei places we'u liveu,
wheie we weie the new ones anu eveiybouy kinu of knew you weie new. When we
aiiiveu theie, you coulu pietty much make the assumption that eveiyone was new. Which
maue foi a ieally welcoming community, to be honest. Because eveiywheie you went,
eveiybouy knew what it was like to be new, oi they iecently knew what it was like to be
new, oi they know people who weie new, anu they just know what that's like. It was veiy
inteiesting in that iespect. Foit NcNuiiay in Albeita, anu in Canaua, often gets a ieally
bau iap. that theie's all kinus of people that show up, anu they make theii money, anu
they leave. While they aie theie, they aie making huge contiibutions to the community in
many cases. Even the ones that uon't live theie. I iemembei a stoiy when I was fiist theie
that blew my minu. The mayoi hau just come back fiom a pancake bieakfast that one of
the high schools hau oiganizeu foi a funuiaisei foi a local community, anu a busloau of
woikeis coming in fiom one of the mine sites stoppeu in. They all got out anu hau
pancakes anu two guys each left a check foi $1,uuu. The goou will of the people that woik
theie anu uon't live theie, was huge. Anu the goou will of the people that live theie anu the
effoits they maue to make it a ieally goou place to live was significant. So it seemeu like it
was a ieally tiansitoiy tempoiaiy kinu of city, but it was absolutely fabulous. Anu events
like Buining Nan aie othei examples wheie people convene, anu it is in us to be a
community.
C73%$'(E I was thinking exactly what you just saiu about the iefeience to Buining Nan,
that Steve NcIntosh biought foiwaiu this moining, anu I actually have iefeienceu in my
book as well, because I saw Buining Nan as an example of a city that is veiy tiansitoiy in
natuie. It's actually piepaieu, anu then cieateu anu liveu in, anu then actually bioken
uown anu iemoveu so that theie is no eviuence of it in the ueseit. I always founu that an
extiemely inteiesting example that has actually giown anu giown anu giown eveiy yeai,
so that as moie people come to it, it becomes an evei moie complex challenge to iespect
the habitat that it occuis in, to engage moie anu moie people in moie complex ways. Anu
then to iemove all eviuence of human occupation of the ueseit. So youi iefeience to it in
ielating it to Foit NcNuiiay was staiting to come up in my own imaging, anu that
sometimes life conuitions like this, which seem to be not optimal, not at all like a
tiauitional city, tiauitional cities we tenu to think of as having hunuieus, if not thousanus
of yeais of histoiy. Some cities, like those in The Netheilanus anu China, aie new cities,
anu they aie soit of conceiveu fiom sciatch fiom a mastei plan, as you saiu, anu then built
to that plan. But Foit NcNuiiay sounus like it actually has to exist somewheie in the
miuule of conuitions that aie in the miuule of self-oiganizing, anu that it has to kinu of
invent the iules as it goes along. Woulu that be similai to what youi expeiience was while
you weie theie.
A-,<E Yes, that's ceitainly my expeiience, anu I woulu say the people that choose to live
anu woik theie aie also of that spiiit. You show up, anu you uon't know exactly how it's
going to shake out. Theie's people that show up, anu they've got a couple thousanu bucks
in theii pocket, anu they'ie going to get a job iight away. Then they uon't quite finu a job
iight away, but they hang on anu they aie cieative anu they figuie it out. Anu then theie
aie othei folks that woik ieally, ieally, ieally haiu foi an amount of time, anu then they
leave. Anu then theie aie folks that simply settle in anu make it home. Anu it is what it is,
but theie is uefinitely a sense of community theie, anu piiue of the community. Anu like
any othei city in oui piovince, you know, people aie expecting a quality of seivice that
they woulu get fiom any othei city in Albeita, anu Canaua. That's always been an ongoing
stiuggle too. In any community that's giowing fast, to make suie that the facilities all aie
caught up.
What was ieally neat was, you hau askeu me eailiei about my oppoitunities as a citizen to
be a leauei. The tiuth is, that uiun't ieally happen foi me, because I went in to woik, I
woikeu ieally haiu. I uiun't woik a ciazy haiu uay, but to manage my peisonal eneigy,
when I was uone at the enu of the uay, I went home anu spent it with my family. I have a
pattein of showing up foi woik anu giving it my all, anu then I'll step back out to make
suie that I'm looking aftei myself. That's pait of piacticing the Nastei Coue. I have
colleagues, one employee in paiticulai I always think of, who is just biilliant. Be showeu
up, anu he's like, "0h, I want to leain how to play the tiombone." So he shows up anu he
goes into some community banu. 0i think he playeu a bit in high school, but he wanteu to
leain how to play moie, so he uoes that. Be says, "I've nevei uone anything like Tae Kwon
Bo befoie. I'm going to go anu leain how to uo Tae Kwon Bo." Anu then off he goes. Be
took in eveiything possible that theie was to take in, which was a ieally honoiable way of
exeicising his peisonal leaueiship to contiibute to the city he lives in, anu enjoy it anu
uiaw fiom it, which was ieally kinu of neat.
C73%$'(: Well that ieally is a segue into a question I have been wanting to ask you. You
now live in Eumonton, which is south of Foit NcNuiiay in veiy uiffeient conuitions. A
mouein city, it also though, I woulu say, is the centei foi a lot of eneigy puiposes in the
woilu. What's the uiffeience in how you manage youi eneigy now in Eumonton as a leauei,
veisus how you manageu in it in Foit NcNuiiay, unuei those veiy emeigent, tiansition,
highly eneigizeu conuitions.
A-,<E I woulu say in Foit NcNuiiay I ian on a lot of auienalin. Anu the heat of the moment
when I walkeu in the uooi at woik, befoie I was even in the uooi, it was just "uiop
eveiything," anu we weie putting out fiies left, iight anu centei. Ny management team
anu I always soit of jokeu about all of the things that weie in fiont of us, anu imagining we
weie fiist iesponueis to some soit of uisastei site. Is theie a sucking chest wounu heie.
Because if not, we aie moving on to something else. We hau to consciously make the
uecision on what soits of things to just let buin anu go up in flames, anu what things we
weie going to save. Because we coulun't uo eveiything.
In Eumonton, my life is quite a bit uiffeient. I am woiking as a piivate consultant, anu
some of the woik I am uoing is with cities anu uecision makeis. What woulu be the same is
my sense of making suie that each uay I have time foi myself, anu making suie that I am
able to go anu uo the woik that I want to uo. When I am in spaces wheie I am woiking
with othei people, the same piinciples that I have about cieating the conuitions foi them
to look aftei themselves, anu foi them to look aftei each othei, anu the places that we aie
builuing, anu the cities that we aie builuing oi iecieating, as the case may be, that takes up
an awful lot of eneigy foi me to uo that woik. So I am always tiying to tiiangulate within
myself to make suie that I am giving the absolute best I can to people when they aie
asking foi it. At the same time, I am looking aftei myself. Anu how I woik out in the woilu
takes place in a numbei of uiffeient shapes, because I contiact out anu woik foi
municipalities, as well as a couple of piivate businesses. I'm the piesiuent of my
community league heie in Eumonton, so I uove iight in anu got involveu in my
neighboihoou, anu what we want oui neighboihoou to look anu feel like. I'm woiking with
a national oiganization heie in Eumonton that wants to basically iefiame the whole look
at sustainability by looking at the neighboihoou scale - as one of the holons insiue of the
city - anu can you ieally make a city sustainable by looking at it at the neighboihoou scale.
So I woik at a numbei of uiffeient scales, anu all the time just checking in anu making suie
that I'm cieating the conuitions foi myself to give the best that I can, wheie I'm askeu to be.
C73%$'(E Well that is ieally helpful foi somebouy to unueistanu. That as a leauei, you
actually have uiffeient ways of iesponuing, uepenuing on the context oi the habitats that
you finu youiself in. I'm going to ask in a few minutes foi Eiic to take us into some
questions anu answeis oi a bieakout session with oui auuience, but befoie we uo that, I
want to go back to what Leo was talking about, anu that Commons gaiuen that his son
cieateu. Because I think that links to youi neighboihoou inteiests, woiking at that scale of
woiking at the city. I'm cuiious if you coulu imagine something like a Commons gaiuen
happening in Foit NcNuiiay, anu have you evei seen anything like that alieauy occui in
the city of Eumonton.
A-,<E I think that kinu of stuff happens all ovei the place. In Eumonton, foi example, theie
is a level of oiganization by neighboihoou, wheie 1S4 neighbouihoous in Eumonton aie
what we call "community leagues." Like a civic oiganization. We uon't have any poweis of
goveinment oi anything like that, but what we aie is an oiganizeu stiuctuie, like a city of
neighboihoous one scale uown fiom a planet of cities, wheie we aie all woiking
specifically on the things that each neighboihoou iespectively neeus. Anu then, of couise,
we can woik togethei. Ny community league isn't, but othei ones aie uoing gaiuens.
viitually all of us have things like playgiounus, which is uefinitely a Commons. It's
manageu by ouiselves as a civic oiganization in paitneiship with the City of Eumonton,
but it's fully expecteu to be a place that anyone can use.
In Foit NcNuiiay, that playgiounu element was theie, but not the sense of neighboihoou
oiganization. That was not piesent. But theie weie ceitainly people oiganizing
themselves in Foit NcNuiiay to cieate anu finu ways to have the amenities that the
community neeueu. So maybe not quite explicitly at the level of the Commons, but the
spiiit was ceitainly theie. Anu I woulu say, impiomptu gatheiings oi festivals, oi any of
those kinus of celebiatoiy things, aie wheie the Commons show up. Anu they iegulaily uo
that. That's pait of what city goveinment uoes, is cieate oppoitunities foi the Commons to
show up, whethei it is the Bluebeiiy Festival oi whatevei soit of festival celebiation cities
have. It is an invitation foi the Commons to show up anu see each othei. That uefinitely
happeneu in Foit NcNuiiay, as it uoes in othei cities.
C73%$'(E So you coulu maybe safely assume that people aie complex auaptive systems,
anu when they aie in uiffeient habitats, theii leaueiship emeiges anu connects in uiffeient
ways. Theie seems to be some impulse in us that wants to stietch out anu cieate
ielationships with otheis in oui cities, in oui neighboihoous, anu with who's tuineu up in
oui geneial aiena of influence.
A-,<E Absolutely, anu when municipal goveinments aie not uoing what they neeu to be
uoing, citizens show up anu tell city council all the time what they neeu to uo. The othei
thing that happens, anu I think this is happening moie anu moie, is iathei than going to
city council anu saying "you ought to uo this," citizens aie stanuing anu saying, "aliight,
let's just uo it. Let's oiganize ouiselves."
C73%$'(E I finu that the whole inteiest in the Commons is a stiikingly new uevelopment.
Ceitainly eailiei in oui confeience we hau ueoige Poi on the thiiu uay talking about the
Commons, anu that was in the context of the city as a living system, looking at it fiom a
contexting peispective. But it's come up seveial times. We ouiselves, in the emeigence of
the conveigence, will be looking at it much fuithei. I think that the iuea that the leaueiship
uevelopment piogiams aie now actually intiouucing it as a whole new, what sounus to me
like a paiauigm, something that is neithei monetizeu thiough the piivate system, noi
iegulateu thiough the goveinment system. Anu that it's almost like asking oui city-zens to
take back a common iesouice that they have ceitain, not only iights to, but iesponsibility
foi. Anu this is a veiy uiffeient way of thinking about how we evolve oui behaviois with
one anothei. So thinking about 0utei Intelligence as the way that we act anu behave anu
uemonstiate those things that we value. What's impoitant to us. So foi me, the Commons
opens up the whole way of actually evolving leaueiship uevelopment, leaueiship
euucation, leaueiship cuiiiculum, in a foimal way. But in an infoimal way, like the stoiy
that we weie tolu by Leo anu his son }osh in cieating the Commons gaiuen in Chicago, it's
a way of leaining infoimally by uoing. So leaining by uoing, anu that in anu of itself is a
uemonstiation of 0utei Intelligence. Any comments fiom you, Beth, on that.
A-,<E Yes. Theie's a couple of things. 0ne woulu be a question I have about the Commons,
anu Leo hau maue some iefeiences to some examples. So the ocean, the foiest, the piaiiies.
Bigital things, oi the cultuial Commons, whethei it is language, that kinu of thing. 0ne of
them may be just simply public space. So, in my minu I am toying between: it's not public
oi piivate, is it Common. But, of couise, common things can be piivately helu. The uiban
foiest of the city, while a lot of that foiest is on the public lanu that we all own, thiough
oui municipal goveinment, a lot of the foiest is on piivate lanu. So theie is always
uecisions to make. The "tianscenu anu incluue" incluues the public anu piivate. It is
impoitant to make that uistinction, paiticulaily if we talk about in a city, the spaces that
we make wheie the public can gathei. When you aie physically making a city in Noith
Ameiica, foi example, the public spaces aie public. I mean we can all go theie, anu of
couise theie aie some iules that oui local goveinments lay uown: "We want people to be
quiet aftei 11 pm." 0i, "theie's no camping heie." Anu theie's always ieasons foi that, but
it is still a common iesouice. But theie aie some filteis oi limitations on it. It's not maybe
as big as it woulu be if we weie talking about all public spaces, as opposeu to the one that's
the paik a block away fiom my home. That's one thing I have a question aiounu. If you
look at the Commons fiactally, the smallei it gets, is theie a laigei publicpiivate iole.
Anu then as it gets biggei anu biggei anu biggei, is theie a less public anu piivate iole. I
have that question in my minu.
The othei thing is when we aie looking at the Commons anu how we gathei it, oi how we
uiscuss what that is, that the health of the Commons, I woulu say, woulu be fully
uepenuent upon the quality of oui ielationships with each othei. 0ui ability - fiom oui
selves, oui confiuence anu oui ieauing of the context - always to put oui full self out theie,
anu what we ieally believe anu say. 0ui ielationships with othei people, such that we can
have a ieal tiue anu honest conveisation, oi the uoou, the Tiue anu the Beautiful, as Steve
NcIntosh put it eailiei touay, that evolves as oui abilities to meet each othei in the
Commons also evolves. Peihaps that's a suppoiting element of the Commons, oi
something that's co-ueveloping along with it, is oui ability simply to be with each othei
anu uo things with each othei that aie conuucive to what we aie ieally aiming foi, in
teims of the quality of enviionments in oui cities. Anu also simply the Commons, if we
look at it that way.
C73%$'(E Anu that ties in ieally well, Beth, with an inquiiy I hau fifteen yeais ago. Which
comes fiist, the leaueis. Bo they uevelop the community, oi uoes the community uevelop
the leaueis. When I finisheu my stuuies, I came to the conclusion they co-cieate one
anothei.
A-,<E Yes. I agiee.
C73%$'(E The inteiaction of uiffeient scales that you aie talking about is a ieally, ieally
feitile leaining giounu.
A-,<E To take it one step fuithei, cities cieate citizens, anu citizens cieate cities. That's a
co-cieative ielationship as well.
C73%$'(E Yes. Cities cieate citizens, anu citizens cieate cities. Peifect. Thank you. I believe
we have some questions fiom oui auuience.
43%.E We co-cieate heie too. I appieciate live questions to shape this space.
!$%7E This conveisation is so giounuing. It's so beautiful, the weaving togethei of so many
uiffeient things. I have a seveial thoughts anu a question. When I fiist heaiu the iuea of the
Commons, I saiu, it's not going to woik unless people take iesponsibility. I mean, the
whole notion iests on people taking iesponsibility foi something laigei than theii own
paiticulai lives. That's something that has been in human uiscouise foi a ieally long time. I
think that the notion of the Nastei Coue, which I woulu call expanuing ciicles of caie, is
extiemely ielevant to the iuea of Commons, just as you have been saying. I was stiuck,
Beth, with youi talking about setting up the conuitions foi oui ability to caie foi ouiselves
anu setting up the conuitions foi othei people to caie foi themselves anu to caie foi otheis.
That's soit of a fiactal I haun't consiueieu befoie, explicitly anyway. I think I have been
woiking with it, but not consiueiing it explicitly. Anu then, Naiilyn biought in the notion
of iights anu iesponsibilities, which of couise is extiemely ielevant, anu theii balance anu
inteiielationship, which is been pait of my political consiueiations foi half a centuiy.
43%.E (0iganizes bieak-out gioups) The question foi bieak-out gioups is: .%5 6+& 7%2
6)(+,( ,-8(9*:+6( ;%) &(5 &%,-%&* %; ,0( $%88%&* ,% *,+), ,% *2);+6(<
(Aftei Bieak-out gioups)
A-,<E I got to listen in on a couple of conveisations, all soits of stuff is bubbling aiounu in
me. 0ne thing I will touch on is the notion of anthiopocentiism, anu that peispective of
looking at the Commons. That being a cause of concein. Ny offeiing woulu be simply that
when we look at something like lanu owneiship, when we aie looking at a tiibal woilu
view, it's veiy much a common thing. As we look at mouein, postmouein oi even a
tiauitional foim of lanu owneiship, it has changeu fiom the Commons to inuiviuuals
owning it, anu the public being sepaiate fiom the piivate. I wonuei if what we aie calling
into being is that, uespite the fact that eithei piivate oi public entities own lanu, that
theie's anothei level of consciousness of shaieu owneiship of lanu that is kinu of a
supeioiuinate intention foi us, as we own lanu, anu we'ie stewaiuing it all. That neeu not
be an anthiopocentiic level of unueistanuing, oi consciousness, but that it's a much laigei
level of consciousness that emeiges as we giow anu uevelop into that. Which then begs
the question about, if we aie opeiating fiom a highei level of consciousness, what level of
self-caie uo we neeu so that when we aie in ielationship with the othei levels of
consciousness, that we can fully iespect the peispectives that they aie opeiating fiom as
they aie giowing anu leaining. Anu iecognize that we can have Commons, we can have
public, we can have piivate, anu we can have all of those inteiests, anu tianscenu anu
incluue all of those things fiom theii healthy manifestations. I have question aiounu that.
But, Naiilyn, what uiu you heai.
C73%$'(E I also heaiu a uiscussion on anthiopocentiism, too. I was thinking about the
evolutionaiy span of that, anu my peispective is that ceitainly I woulu nevei consiuei that
an Integial City, an eco-iegion, woulu be successful on a planet of cities if it only was
anthiopocentiic. It has to actually take into consiueiation the entiie scope of lifefoims. As
Bowaiu Bloom has pointeu out, if we'ie thinking about how human lifefoims get along
with one anothei, he uoesn't think we will be as gieatly challengeu by wais between
uiffeient anthiopocentiic peispectives, as we will be challenge by the biota, the miciobes
that aie in us, as us, aiounu us, that aie the still oiiginal foims of life that Elisabet
Sahtouiis ieminueu us iight fiom the fiist week, aie the ieality of oui human habitat. So, I
feel, in thinking of the city as a human hive, which is the image I put foiwaiu, in oiuei to
actually piovoke oui anthiopocentiism, if we think about honey bees, as a species they aie
a hunuieu million yeais olu. 0ui anthiopocentiic time clock is a million |yeais oluj, oi a
hunuieu thousanu oi fifty thousanu, like Steve NcIntosh saiu this moining. The tiuth of
the mattei is, we aie much youngei species than the honey bees. They have a uiffeient
scale of consciousness than us, but one of the things that they figuieu out foi theii
sustainability anu iesilience peispective is that they not only take eneigy fiom theii eco-
iegion in oiuei to piouuce theii foity pounus of honey a yeai, in that piocess they actually
pollinate the souices of that eneigy. It has been my question, in iegaius to the
evolutionaiy capacity of humans anu cities, of how can we figuie that same thing out, so
that we aie not simply sucking in iesouices fiom Nothei Eaith, but ietuining to hei
iesouices anu auuing value. }ames Lovelock says the way we auu value is as uaia's
ieflective oigan, so we have to ieflect, but the ieflection as humans is always being
tianslateu into action. That's wheie the 0utei Intelligence is expiesseu. You may tell, Beth,
that I am iathei eneigizeu about actually making suie that we think about all life foims,
anu iespecting them, because we aie in an ecology of coexistence on Eaith.
I woulu like to thank Beth foi stepping into the inquiiy aiounu evolutionaiy intelligences,
anu oui capacities to tianscenu anu incluue what we alieauy aie uemonstiating as
intelligence, anu to keep emeiging foiwaiu. As well as giving us some ieally conciete
stoiies about the expiession of 0utei Intelligence, how we actually act, behave anu evolve,
not only in the kinus of spaces we think of as benign in oui uevelopeu woilu cities, but in
ieally challenging places, like the tai sanus. Thanks so much Beth. It has been wonueiful to
have you heai with Leo Buike on this session.
A-,<E Thank you.

1
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Speakeis: Petei Neiiy, Beiiuie uouuiiaan
Inteiviewei: Naiilyn Bamilton
Septembei 2S, 2u12

8-,-3 @-33', PhB (canu.) weais a numbei of hats. In his essence, he
moiphs to fit the neeu that he feels he is being calleu to meet in the
woilu touay. In that context, the ioles he cuiiently plays incluue: the
founuei anu Chaii of the Centei foi Buman Emeigence, Netheilanus,
foimeu in 2uuS to facilitate the Netheilanus thiough the cuiient
tiansition anu leain foi the woilu, anu a Synneivatoi in CBE
Synneivate; Biiectoi of Wisuom 0niveisity in Euiope; the founuei anu Biiectoi of
the Bague Centei foi ulobal uoveinance, Innovation anu Emeigence, founueu in 2uu8 to
suppoit, leain about anu piomote innovative integial appioaches to the global challenges
that humanity faces touay; a paitnei at Engage!, founueu in 2uuu with Aijen Bos anu Tim
Neiiy, to eain a living by uoing what we weie passionate about; a Fellow of the Centei foi
Buman Ecology in the 0K wheie he uiu his NSc with a thesis on the futuie of woik anu
economics. Woiking on a PhB at Wisuom 0niveisity, Petei is completing his final yeai
(2u12) of vocational tiaining in EC0theiapy.
A-%3=3- B62=3%77( is an oiganizational, leaueiship anu community
uevelopment consultant who biings valueu expeitise to gioups in the
piivate anu public sectois acioss Canaua. She has woikeu extensively
with municipal, piovincial, anu feueial goveinments, incluuing Bealth
Canaua, the Bepaitment of }ustice, anu Aboiiginal Affaiis anu Noithein
BevelopmentInuian Resiuential Schools Resolution Canaua. In auuition
to othei collaboiations, Beiiuie is an active membei of the team at BC
Bealthy Communities, anu woiks in paitneiship with the BC Bealthy Living Alliance anu
2u1u Legacies Now. With a Nastei's uegiee in Leaueiship anu Tiaining fiom Royal Roaus
0niveisity, Beiiuie is an enthusiastic anu eneigetic facilitatoi anu mentoi to inuiviuuals
anu oiganizations seeking to put the integial mouel into piactice. In hei own woius: "I
ueeply iespect the complexity of the human spiiit, anu believe in oui inuiviuual anu
collective capacity foi giowth anu iesilience.
@73%$'( C7"%$,6(D Petei anu Beiiuie, I iespect the uepth of expeiience you have in
ielation to the Intelligences that we'ie looking at this week. Touay's theme is Evolutionaiy
0utei Intelligence. In my book, I uefine Evolutionaiy Intelligence as the capacity to
tianscenu anu incluue the Intelligences we cuiiently uemonstiate, in oiuei to allow new
Intelligences to emeige. I uefine 0utei Intelligence as the biological "it" space of the citizen.
That is wheie the bouy acts, behaves, anu evolves. I wanteu to uiaw on youi inteiest,
expeiience, anu knowleuge of EC0theiapy, Petei, anu foi youi expeiiences woiking in
communities, Beiiuie, but also to invite the inquiiy of how uo you uo that woik in a way
that allows you to manage youi own peisonal eneigy. Petei, what steps uo you take to
manage youi peisonal eneigy, especially ielateu to life in the city; anu is that any uiffeient
if you happen to be in a iuial oi eco-iegional location.
8-,-3 @-33': The basic piactices I woulu uo woulu be the same. I just notice that I woulu
natuially be moie nuituieu in a countiysiue enviionment than in the city, simply because
the fiequency of the eneigy when you'ie in natuie matches that of youi bouy, wheieas
when you aie in the city with all the electio-smog, anu the kinu of stiange shapes of the
builuings anu eveiything else, you'ie getting hit with eneigy that is not matching that of
oui vital oigans in oui bouy. So you neeu to be a little moie iigoious in the piactice, in my
expeiience.
Foi example in oiuei to uo the eneigetic EC0theiapy woik, I uiu some claiivoyant tiaining
thiough a centei in Bawaii at a uistance. As pait of that, I leaineu how to imagine that my
bouy was a cleai kinu of ciystalline foim, which means that when I am walking thiough a
busy tiain station oi something, any eneigy fiom anyone else just passes stiaight by, so it
uoesn't get hookeu in my system. So those aie auuitional piactices I might uo foi myself in
a busy city.
In geneial, my piactice has evolveu ovei time fiom when I fiist encounteieu Ken
|Wilbeij's woik. I'm essentially an activist wanting to woik in the woilu to make a
uiffeience out theie. When I came acioss Ken's woik, I iealizeu I hau to take the innei
woik seiiously, because the impact I coulu make out theie was uiiectly ielateu to my own
innei state. That was aiounu 1999-2uuu, wheie I ieally got uisciplineu about a meuitation
piactice foi a numbei of yeais.
At some point that kinu of settleu in, anu uiffeient piactices emeigeu, wheie eneigy
staiteu to ielease itself in my bouy, anu I hau to uevelop a moie pio-active piactice to
woik with the eneigy in my bouy. That's what enueu up flowing into my getting inteiesteu
in eneigetic woik in the woilu. We'll piobably get a chance to talk about that latei, but in
teims of answeiing youi question, theie's a numbei of piactices I uo which I've leaineu
thiough the claiivoyant woik aie what we might call "psychic tools" just to keep me
giounueu, keep my eneigetic space cleai, make suie I am being continually feu with the
eneigy of my Bighei Self, so that I am basically on line foi what neeus to be uone.
So I uon't know if you want to go into moie uetail about those, but that's kinu of a set of
piactices which I leaineu which have evolveu togethei with my woik in the exteinal woilu
moie in the eneigetic iealm.
@73%$'(D I woulu be cuiious if you woulu shaie a few of those piactices. I think I've seen
oi know of some of them, but I woulu be veiy cuiious to know, on behalf of oui auuience. I
think we'ie all tiying to unueistanu how to uo those kinus of things. So thanks foi what
you can shaie.
8-,-3D Theie's some simple piactices which aie pait of a uaily ioutine, in a way, which aie,
foi example, making suie you have a giounuing coiu which is like a hollow coiu going
fiom youi hips uown to the centei of the eaith. The ieason that it's hollow is so that
eneigies which aie unwanteu in youi system can uiop uown, anu it'll have a coloi
uepenuing on what you want to give it, oi what the eaith wants to give it, what coloi it
wants to give you foi the uay, uepenuing on youi activity. You just visualize that going all
the way uown to the centei of the eaith. That's something I uo numeious times a uay,
because if you'ie out, paiticulaily in the city, that coulu get uislougeu anu knockeu out
quickly. So you just want to check that youi giounuing coiu is in place, anu once that's in
place, it helps youi whole system ielax. That's a ieally key one. I think in oui times,
giounuing is a veiy impoitant piactice both inuiviuually anu collectively.
0thei things aie, just biinging youi attention to the auia aiounu youi bouy, which
geneially in a healthy balance between safety anu fieeuom, woulu be as you stietch out
youi aims, that kinu of length aiounu youi bouy anu aiounu youi feet anu above youi
heau, behinu youi back, etc. }ust making suie that that's cleai of stuff that uoesn't belong
theie. Claiming it, making suie you aie the boss of youi auia, as it weie. That you'ie not
allowing othei stuff to cieep in which uoesn't belong theie.
A way you can help that also is by imagining above youi heau that theie's a gieat big
goluen sun, which is essentially youi highei Self, which is full of bubbly golu eneigy
bathing youi bouy anu auia in that goluen eneigy. That fiequency natuially ieleases stuff
in youi bouy anu youi auia that isn't iesonant with you, which can then fall away uown
youi giounuing coiu into the centei of the eaith, wheie it's tiansfoimeu.
You can give uiffeient qualities to that eneigy. If you give youiself a showei of big goluen
eneigy fiom youi sun, you can give it valiuation, which is often impoitant if we'ie uoing
eneigetic woik, because many of us who uo that woik aie not often given cieuit in the
woilu. uive youiself a big showei of valiuation eneigy, oi ielaxation, oi amusement, oi
cuiiosity, oi whatevei is appiopiiate.
Theie is a whole set; but the last one which is veiy useful is just being centeieu in youi
heait space, which in this woik is basically neutiality anu cuiiosity, a place wheie actually
nothing happens, essentially. It's ieally the black hole of the toius wheie you iest, anu
you'ie cuiious about what's aiounu you, anu that means if you'ie woiking eneigetically,
anu you'ie picking up infoimation thiough the eneigetic fielu, that you'ie open anu
neutial in that inquiiy, cuiious about what's going to aiiive, so you'ie not filteiing it
thiough any of youi juugments, oi any kinu of past pain that might be hanging aiounu in
youi system.
Those aie some of the things which I've leaineu in the claiivoyant piactice in Bawaii.
Linua Keene has wiitten a veiy goou book aiounu some of this calleu !"#$%#%&" ()*%+,
which I also pickeu up thiough the EC0theiapy tiaining, anu woiking with ueomancy with
Richaiu Leviton, who came thiough the same Bawaiian school. So it seems that theie aie a
numbei of piactices which aie quite common acioss uisciplines foi eneigetic woik which
help you stay well-balanceu in youi eneigy.
@73%$'(D Thank you Petei. I must say as you weie talking about them, I was just soit of
listening into them anu piacticing them as you uesciibeu them, anu I feel wonueiful now,
so thank you, you've ieally given me a wonueiful eneigy bath iight now. I hope that oui
listeneis have also inuulgeu in the guiuance. Thank you.
Beiiuie, let me uiaw you into the conveisation. When you aie woiking out in the veiy
uynamic city anu community spaces that you woik in, what steps uo you take to manage
youi peisonal eneigy. Bo you notice a uiffeience foi youiself when you'ie in a city oi
when you'ie in a moie iuial oi a moie eco-iegion.
A-%3=3- B62=3%77(: Let me iesponu to the fiist pait of youi question fiist. I woulu say
that theie's two ways that I uiaw eneigy. 0ne is connecting with piactitioneis out theie in
the woilu uoing woik on the euge, both like-minueu anu uiveise-minueu folks, anu
uiawing fiom theii eneigy, because I feel that collective souice of eneigy that comes fiom
that. The seconu pait of that is my own piactices aiounu what I woulu iefei to as engaging
healing oi geneiating health, cultivating hope, stewaiuship, leaining, wiiting. That
piactice often foi me centeis aiounu some of the similai eneigy piactices to what Petei
has mentioneu. Also focusing on minufulness piactices, anu inteifaith contemplative
piocesses that biing people togethei acioss faith uisciplines anu into a space wheie we
can all expeiience that powei of eneigy, contemplation, minufulness togethei.
In teims of uiawing eneigy, I finu it much easiei to connect in natuial spaces, spaces
wheie I feel most closely aligneu with the eaith. Sometimes it takes a bit of seeking to finu
those places in an uiban enviionment, although they aie ceitainly out theie. I finu foi
myself it's much easiei when I'm out in gieen open spaces, anu I just feel that immeuiate
connection to that eneigy.
@73%$'(: Well you'ie iuentifying some ieally inteiesting contiasts with what Petei saiu. It
sounus to me like you'ie able to finu eneigy ienewal in collective expeiiences, being
togethei with otheis in youi piactice. Am I unueistanuing that coiiectly.
A-%3=3-: Yes, coiiect. So it's both, I think. It's not one ovei the othei. Biawing fiom both
souices of eneigy.
@73%$'(: Bo you have any expeiience of that as it might ielate to something we've been
cuiious about thioughout the confeience, that ielates to Collective Intelligence. Bo you
think that in piacticing togethei we cieate something like an eneigy fielu that can ienew
us.
A-%3=3-: I believe that to be so. In fact, iecently we hau the 0.N. Bay of Peace acioss the
woilu, anu it was my expeiience that the coming togethei of gioups acioss the community
ieally cieateu that fielu that I hope will iipple out aiounu the woilu, so that one uay we
may achieve that intention anu cieate that consciousness to opeiate in a peaceful woilu.
@73%$'(D I'm ieally cuiious, too, whethei it's possible to oveicome what Petei has pointeu
at in the city, wheie the fiequencies with which we'ie bombaiueu by a lot of technology
means that we'ie not iesonating to the fiequency of oui own bouies. I have that
expeiience myself. I spenu lot of time, ceitainly foi this confeience, connecteu to the
telephone anu to my computei, anu I finu that in oiuei to ienew my eneigy, I neeu to go
out into natuial space. I uo have a piofounuly uiffeient expeiience of the ihythm of life out
in natuie.
I'm just cuiious, Petei, I'm going to come back to you. Since we'ie so technologically
connecteu in the city, it seems iathei paiauoxical that anothei thing we'ie noticing is that
people aie often alone anu lonely; so they'ie togethei, alone. I'm just cuiious, youiself,
have you hau that expeiience, oi if you've woikeu with people who aie having that
expeiience, wheie the technology connects, say you anu I, wheie you'ie now in Asheville
|Noith Caiolinaj, anu you'ie noimally in the Netheilanus. Anu heie I am on the West Coast
of Noith Ameiica, anu we can be talking in ieal-time via technology. But I might not be so
connecteu with the people who aie actually heie in my house. Aie you expeiiencing
anything of that paiauox, anu have you founu ways to oveicome it.
8-,-3: No I uon't think I have, actually. People say that's the expeiience. We see that a lot
moie with the upcoming youngei geneiation, they say. I woulun't say I've expeiienceu
people who aie finuing moie in online community than in ieal-time community. At least
not in my immeuiate enviionment.
@73%$'(: So in youi immeuiate enviionment, people aie choosing to connect in ieal-time
anu not just being lockeu into online communities.
8-,-3: Yes.
@73%$'(: We spoke eailiei with Steve NcIntosh about the impact of Beauty, Tiuth, anu
uoouness on bio-physical wellbeing. Can you say anything about that as an impact in youi
life. Wheie uoes it tuin up in city oi community oi even in natuial aieas.
8-,-3: Beauty, Tiuth, anu uoouness. Well, that's a big question. You coulu uo the whole
univeise in that. Bow uoes Beauty, Tiuth anu uoouness show up in the city. Is that youi
question.
@73%$'(: Bow uoes it impact you. Bo you notice when you aie in places that have
qualities of Beauty anuoi Tiuth anuoi uoouness.
8-,-3: Suie. That's piobably one of the main ieasons we moveu fiom wheie we weie
living befoie to this ecological neighboihoou, which is a lot moie embeuueu in natuial
uesign piinciples, so theie's a lot moie Natuie aiounu. But also the way the builuings aie
uesigneu, both themselves anu in theii ielationship to each othei, feels fai moie natuial. If
you unueistanu some of the natuial geometiic piinciples of how Natuie uesigns its
ielationships; between paits anu wholes, anu the uoluen Nean, anu these uiffeient
piopoitions which Natuie seems to auopt in teims of the ielationship between paits, then
when you'ie in an enviionment that has moie of that uesign built in, it's natuially moie
eneigizing than if you'ie in an enviionment wheie no attention has been paiu to natuial
uesign piinciples.
Foi example, heie this week one of oui faculty is an expeit in Feng Shui, anu theie's a
ceitain attention you can give to the lanu, wheie builuings aie situateu, anu if you have
just ignoieu the lanu that a builuing is going to be situateu on, then you'ie likely to be in
foi eneigetic tiouble.
Because we've been faiily ignoiant in the West about uomains, that means we have
cieateu enviionments, we have built enviionments in paiticulai which aie full of
uistuibeu eneigy, which makes them less vital, less eneigizing foi us as people to live in.
So that's piobably moie on the Beauty siue. 0n the Tiuth siue, if we talk about authentic
community, then being in an oiganization oi community wheie people aie being honest,
anu aie tiue to themselves, obviously geneiates fai moie eneigy foi me than being in a
community wheie people have othei agenuas, oi aie stiesseu out with othei things, anu
aien't ieally authentically expiessing who they aie. Even if that cieates gieatei tension, in
that context, at least you've got something which feels ieal, tiue to woik with.
Anu in teims of uoouness, which is, I guess, a veiy ielative concept, if we can say that a
value of it is that uoouness is ielateu in some way to what extent people aie woiking
towaius gieatei wholeness, oi natuial fit between things, then the kinu of community oi
neighboihoou wheie I'm living, you've got people who aie moie inteiesteu anu moie
connecteu to those kinus of values than the city enviionment wheie I was living befoie.
Foi me, that's moie eneigizing. If you go into the uiffeient ways people will ielate to the
concept of uoouness, then the content of that is likely to be uiffeient foi uiffeient
communities. So foi me, that's why I sought out the place to live wheie we'ie now living.
@73%$'(: Anu it is veiy beautiful. I know that when I visiteu you theie, it hau a lasting
impiession on me, anu I tolu many people that if theie weie no othei constiaints in my life,
that's uefinitely wheie I'u like to live. I'm kinu of cuiious, if you coulu just maybe give us a
contiasting uesciiption, because I nevei visiteu in you The Bague, wheie you liveu befoie
you moveu to EvA Lanzmeei. What weie the uiffeiences in the qualities that you noticeu,
anu how uiu it affect youi eneigy theie.
8-,-3: 0ne is simply the uesign of the houses. The houses in EvA Lanzmeei aie built in
clusteis, ciicles, in a way wheie you'ie facing a numbei of othei houses, but you have youi
own bit of gaiuen, anu when you walk thiough youi own gaiuen, you come to a collective
gaiuen. So in oui case, theie's a big sanupit in the collective gaiuen, anu a watei pump so
the kius can mix up watei anu sanu, have a lot of fun. That means when they walk out of
theii own gaiuen, they bump into lots of othei kius. But when you walk out of youi house,
you bump into people, iathei than the kinu of context I was living in in The Bague, which I
think is moie the stanuaiu situation, wheie you've got a line of houses, each in youi own
box, anu you walk out of youi own box into youi motoiizeu box, anu finu youi way to youi
office box, anu then walk back into youi motoiizeu box, anu back into youi home box, with
actually veiy little inteiaction with anybouy in between.
In EvA Lanzmeei, the cais have to be all paikeu on the peiimetei of the neighboihoou, so
the kius can iun aiounu anu cycle aiounu, anu it means moie people walk, anu theiefoie
bump into each othei anu have conveisation. So it's much moie human in teims of its
uesign. I can't believe, ieally, that humans woulu have consciously uesigneu the othei
option, which is the kinu of "box" option, because it seems so anathema to human natuie.
So it's a much moie eneigizing place to live in, anu theie's space foi moie synchionicities
anu connections between people. So it makes a big uiffeience.
@73%$'(: You'ie uesciibing something that I aspiie to in thinking about an Integial City,
anu actually we have to face the fact that one of the haiu tiuths is, it's human to uesign the
box example of how a lot of cities "woik," unfoitunately. oi uon't woik, actually. Naybe
they'ie veiy peiplexeu why they uon't feel goou theie, anu so aie actually leaining that
theie aie eneigies in spaces, that the spaces aie cieateu both fiom eaith eneigy, anu then
how we co-ielate oui aitifacts, oui built enviionment, on that, anu also co-ielate that with
oui innei lives of consciousness anu cultuie. So thanks foi giving us those examples, Petei,
because, again, it's veiy easy to imagine the uiffeience between them.
Beiiuie, can I come back to you. You anu I have talkeu about this paiauox of how people
aie technologically connecteu, but often left alone anu lonely. Can you tell me any
examples that you've seen with the communities that you'ie woiking in, anu have you
cieateu any piocesses to oveicome that ieality foi those people.
A-%3=3-D What immeuiately came to minu was an image of a kinueigaiten class staiting
the school yeai this yeai. They weie all attacheu to theii Nac computeis that weie school
supplieu. It causeu me to pause foi a moment when I saw that image. Because one of the
things that has been emeiging fiom a health peispective is that even though we seem
moie connecteu in the viitual woilu, one of the iecent health shifts has been the uesiie,
the neeu, foi gieatei social connection. People aie feeling in some ways less connecteu,
anu I uo think it ielates to those boxes that we'ie pait of. So I think theie's this poweiful
yeaining foi connections both in anu between oui communities. So it's not suipiising to
me that this iecent health infoimation was gaineu. Citizens weie askeu to uefine health
anu what it meant to them, anu I think pait of health is, of couise, having those
connections in oui communities. So I think the uesiie is theie, anu yet often I heai people
uesciibe theii own expeiiences of the box, which is walking out theii fiont uooi anu not
knowing theii neighbouis fiom siue to siue. I think the uesign of oui built enviionments
have of couise contiibuteu to that, anu we uon't have those public meeting places, those
thiiu spaces in oui communities wheie we can easily connect. So unless we take, unless I
take the conscious effoit of meeting my neighbouis anu cieating those spaces, they aie
less likely to occui.
@73%$'(D So Beiiuie, I'm kinu of cuiious, I know that you have a heiitage, that
paiauoxically, in this conveisation that is, ielateu to the Netheilanus, anu you go back
theie sometimes. Bo you notice a uiffeience in the way that people connect in the
Netheilanus oi Euiope veisus how we connect heie in Canaua oi in Noith Ameiica.
A-%3=3-D I uo, anu I think that even though the uesign of cities is not peifect in Euiope, it
ceitainly fiom my peispective is supeiioi to what we have in Noith Ameiica, simply
because it uoes allow foi collection spaces, places wheie people woulu natuially meet in
public squaies. We've gone away fiom that to uiawing lines veitically anu hoiizontally
thiough all those connection spaces, anu putting ioaus theie so people can tiavel in those
cais fiom place to place, anu theie's little oppoitunity foi them to meet. I think the othei
iecent example that I will point to, anu I uo think it will cieate some changes in the longei
teim, is the uesiie to connect us thiough cycling moie, anu being peuestiians moie, anu I
think those natuially healthy attiibutes anu the city uesign enable people to connect that
much moie easily.
@73%$'(D So the actual technology we'ie using, if it's moie people-poweieu, that it is
actually embouieu, ieally seems to make a uiffeience to how we can both be with otheis in
the woilu, as well as be moie of ouiselves.
Petei, I know that anothei one of youi piactices is ielateu to a mutual fiienu of ouis, }ohn
Newcomb, who actually has a wonueiful embouieu piactice that involves not only people
getting to know how they inteiact with this vessel that they'ie in, but also even thiough
sounu, so that theie's a ieally wonueiful oppoitunity to uiscovei expiession. Naybe you
coulu uesciibe that foi us a little bit, because I know that's something you founu ieally
intiiguing foi youiself. You've intiouuceu it within the Centei foi Buman Emeigence, anu
you've intiouuceu it to a numbei of othei people in the Netheilanus.
8-,-3D This is the piactice that Bylan Newcomb now quotes in 0zazu which you can finu
on 0zazu.oig. Essentially, he's a uancei, choieogiaphei, philosophei anu composei, anu
spent a long time in some of the top uance companies, anu then came out wanting to
connect his own innei woik with the uance woik, anu with sounu. That was his inquiiy.
Be basically put hunuieus of uanceis thiough woikshops, wheie he basically askeu them
to make a ceitain sounu anu see what theii bouy uiu - eight uiffeient vowel sounus. Anu
they came out with a pattein wheie he coulu see the bouy wanteu to make ceitain
movements connecteu to ceitain vowel sounus. Then he iealizeu that, as well as having
the eight uiffeient sounus of movement, it was uiffeient with the in anu out bieath. So he
enueu up with sixteen uiffeient sounus anu movements. Then he met somebouy who saiu,
"Bave you evei lookeu at the I Ching." So he took a look at the I Ching, anu if you look at
the level of 16, then he founu that the patteins anu the I Ching matcheu almost exactly
with what he'u come up with thiough these expeiiments with these uanceis. So cleaily he
was on to something, so you coulu see them as 16 coie eneigy uynamics within oui bouy,
which aie kinu of fuithei uefinitions. If you see the two of them as yin anu yang, in theii
puiest foim, then they'ie kinu of blenus of yin anu yang uown to a level of 16. It's veiy
poweiful because you leain, as you'ie uoing these exeicises, which eneigy uynamic you'ie
most iesonant with, which ones you have iesistance to, so you can woik on those thiough
the exeicises.
But he's linkeu them into levels of uevelopment, paiticulaily the Spiial Bynamics mouel,
so you can actually uance - it's not ieally even uance; it's moie like tai chi kinu of
movements. Within 1u-1S minutes, you move between these uiffeient levels of
uevelopment in youiself, anu can notice wheie you've got most iesistance that uay, anu
give that some attention anu woik on it. You can also activate the uiffeient eneigy
uynamics in uiffeient contexts. If you neeu a uiffeient uynamic in a ceitain context with a
ceitain activity then you can kinu of biing that one into youi bouy moie, which activates
in youi bouy-minu. So I've founu that to be a veiy poweiful piactice.
@73%$'(D I have also uone some of that with Bylan, not to the extent that you have, but it's
pietty joyful anu eneigy ieleasing, anu I think ieally manages to captuie a lot of the
piactices that you shaieu with us in oui beginning conveisation touay. Sometimes when I
look to people tiying to unueistanu how peisonal piactice can help expanu theii own
capacities, they look on it as a uiscipline, which suiely it can be when you commit to it. But
it can actually be extiemely eneigizing, because it ieleases eneigy anu can be extiemely
expiessive anu joyful, as something Bylan offeis us as an oppoitunity. Anything equivalent
that you have that you love to uo Beiiuie.
A-%3=3-D Nia is kinu of neuiomusculai integiative activity, anu it's often useu in the
fitness woilu. It's baseu in sensoiy piactice, anu it's kinu of a combination of uance,
maitial aits anu healing aits. So it's an inteiesting way to kinu of embouy healing, anu also
be moie conscious of youi eneigy.
@73%$'(D Yes I uo know about Nia. It's one of my own piactices. I staiteu many yeais ago
with Integial Tiansfoimative Piactice, that was cieateu out of maitial aits, anu then I
leaineu the Integial Life Piactice that Teiiy Patten co-uevelopeu with Ken Wilbei anu
theii the gioup at Integial Institute anu Integial Life. Then I uiscoveieu Nia, anu Nia foi
me has the same kinu of qualities that Petei was uesciibing ielating to 0zazu, because
theie's also music involveu. So it's the sounu anu the expiession anu the puie joy of it that
makes it so much moie enjoyable, than simply a piactice that one "must uo."
Back to you Petei. I'm cuiious how can we nuituie evolutionaiy activists oi leaueis. Youi
uisclosuie that you think of youiself as an activist; how can we nuituie them so they can
tap into theii spiiitual life souice to ienew theii eneigy. You've talkeu about what you uo.
Bow uo you nuituie otheis to uo the same thing.
8-,-3D Fiist, one coulu say that anyone can be an evolutionaiy activist. Because if you aie
aligneu with who you aie, anu what you have to uo in the woilu, anu aie able to finu a
collective context in which to piactice that, then you coulu say evolution oi the life piocess
is flowing thiough you. So ieally that is just a question of helping people see who they aie,
wheie they'ie at, allowing them to accept who they aie foi now, anu finu theii place in the
collective context, wheie they will be able to offei theii piece. At that point, the spiiit oi
evolutionaiy impulse will flow thiough them. I think often the pioblem is that the context
oi the habitat in which people opeiate is not conuucive to enabling them to live theii
highest potential. So one of the most impoitant things we can uo, if we have that
awaieness, is to cieate the collective context anu habitats that meet people wheie they aie
at, help them to be who they aie, anu make theii contiibutions to the goou of the whole..
@73%$'(D So what I'm heaiing you say is that this uiscoveiy of youi peisonal puipose
allows you to see wheie. one of the ways, if I go back to joy, it is when youi joy inteisects
with the woilu's gieatest neeus. Theie you've founu wheie you can actually ielease the
eneigy to allow the evolutionaiy spiiit to flow thiough you. Am I heaiing you say
something similai to that.
8-,-3D Yes. Anu I woulu auu in theie, anu emphasize, the woik at the collective context. So
you can woik at the inuiviuual level, but if that inuiviuual goes into a collective context
which isn't iesonant with who they aie, then they'ie going to stiuggle anu just expeiience
stiess. So I uon't know. of couise, you've hau Ken |Wilbeij on the call, so people shoulu
be veiy familiai with the foui quauiants. But you'ie going to ieally neeu to act in all foui.
You neeu to be helping people in theii innei woilu come to theii centei; be healthy anu
vital in theii exteiioi expiession; but also to finu a collective cultuial context which
matches them wheie they'ie at on theii jouiney; anu the kinu of stiuctuial systemic
context that enables them to be who they aie, anu to live theii piece of the puzzle.
@73%$'(D So that means this inteiaction between the inuiviuual uiscoveiy of puipose anu
flow can be ieinfoiceu oi amplifieu, you weie just saying, by being well matcheu oi
appiopiiately matcheu with otheis who aie on the same path, anu cieate a context that
suppoits you as you move, as you evolve. So thinking about that Beiiuie, you'ie woiking
all the time with communities, anu I think you also coulu be consiueieu an activist. Bow
uo you help otheis tap into theii spiiitual life souice to ienew theii eneigy.
A-%3=3-D Well you mention flow, anu I think tiying to achieve that flow state in the context
of uoing what you uo in the woilu, anu tiying to cieate that change, is so impoitant. It
happens on multiple levels anu in multiple ways, anu I think what it uoes, it enlivens
eneigy, it inspiies people's imagination, it helps iuentify attiactois, anu you as an attiactoi.
0vei time that enthusiasm anu commitment that builus becomes a life foice of its own,
anu theie's a iecipiocity which gets built in that, anu unueistanuing, anu this piemise of
uoing with, iathei than uoing to oi uoing foi. I think that is health geneiating in anu of
itself, anu moves us fuithei towaiu that goouness.
@73%$'(D Petei mentioneu the foui quauiants, anu I know Beiiuie, that B.C. Bealthy
Communities, wheie you'ie a facilitatoi, actually explicitly uses them. Can you give an
example of how that has helpeu. maybe you can think of an inuiviuual oi a gioup to
actually get into the flow that you'ie talking about.
A-%3=3-D I will give you an example just fiom what I was uoing yesteiuay. I was woiking
with a gioup of social housing pioviueis on cieating a sustainability plan anu an eneigy
savings plan in the facilities that they woik in. In oiuei to uo that, they neeueu to engage
the people that aie living in those facilities. So one of the ways we use the quauiants is to
say, it's not enough to point to a single aspect to cieate change. We neeu to consiuei all of
the quauiants, anu, of couise, an AQAL lens in uoing that. I think what that allows is foi
people to have uiscussions in a uiffeient way, in a way that allows them to talk about theii
inteiioi expeiiences anu the expeiiences of the cultuie that often uoesn't happen in the
context of iegulai meetings oi oiganizational meetings. It fiees the imagination, anu I
think it allows people to get in touch with the passion, the tianspeisonal space, that is
cieateu when they aie uoing what they uo in the woilu.
@73%$'(D Well that's inteiesting that you biing in this tianspeisonal space iuea, because I
think that also connects with something that we've been seeking aiounu collective
intelligence to emeige in oui inquiiy about evolutionaiy intelligences foi the human hive.
So thank you foi giving us that example, anu thank you both foi the wonueiful
conveisation.

1

Amplifying Intelligence
Accessing Our Evolutionary Power Source
for activating city spirit?
Speaker: Terry Patten
September 26, 2012

Terry Patten is a leading voice in the emerging fields of integral
evolutionary leadership and spirituality. With Ken Wilber and the Integral
Institute he co-authored Integral Life Practice, which distills ancient and
modern practices into a contemporary transformational lifestyle. Terry
serves as adjunct faculty in the Integral Executive Leadership program at
Notre Dame University, on the editorial board of the Journal of Integral
Theory and Practice, and the board of directors of the Wellspring Institute
for Neuroscience and Contemplative Wisdom. He was a student and editor in the ashram
of Adi Da Samraj, and later founded the catalog company Tools For Exploration, which
defined the field of consciousness technologies. He leads Integral Spiritual Practice, an
online practice community and continues his acclaimed interview series Beyond
Awakening. His 2013 book, The Integral Revolution, co-authored with Marco Morelli,
explores evolutionary tensions and offers healthy practices to unite spiritual practice,
collective intelligence and responsible citizenship.
Eric Troth: Welcome to the City 2.0 Online Conference. This is session 31 of our 36-part
series during the month of September, 2012. Our purpose is to co-create a new operating
system for the city based on the 12 evolutionary intelligences. Were now in our fourth
week of the Integral City 2.0 Conference. Our theme for this week is amplifying
intelligence: accessing our evolutionary power source. Our topic for today, day 11 of the
conference, is the evolutionary intelligence for activating city spirit. This first session
features thought leader, Terry Patten, interviewed by Marilyn Hamilton. On behalf of the
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Integral City Collective, I want to extend a warm welcome to all of those in our live
audience today as well as those who will be listening to the download recordings.
I have appreciated during this series how much we have been able to lean into new
dimensions and explore different kinds of territories of awareness. Beyond just our
rational thinking, there are other aspects that come in to what we can do together in this
space. And so, just again, inviting that collective breath together as we settle into this time
and open to new possibilities emerging in this very space that we are in right now,
especially today, as we take up the theme of spirituality and how that is influencing the
future of the city.
Let me introduce our interviewer for this session, Dr. Marilyn Hamilton. Marilyn is the
author of, Integral City: Evolutionary Intelligences for the Human Hive, and, of course, is
chief architect for this conference. She is the founder of Integral City Meshworks, The
Center for Human Emergence: Canada, and a charter member of the Integral Institute.
Shes on the faculty at Royal Roads University and lectures at a number of other
institutions of higher learning, as well. Ive come to know Marilyn over the course of this
conference. What I especially appreciate is her wisdom and spiritual depth. She has a
radical optimism thats deeply grounded in this vast, deep-time perspective. And I think
that has really brought in new dimensions to what we can be shaping together in this kind
of a program. And I am really eagerly looking forward to how this unfolds today. So,
welcome Marilyn.
Marilyn Hamilton: Well thanks, Eric. Its just a continuing delight to be with you in
producing the conference and hosting our thought leaders and our designers and our
practitioners. And its my pleasure to frame this session by reminding us that over the last
four weeks weve been trying to find out what are the actual elements or components that
we could consider in designing a new operating system for the city. In the first week, we
looked at a planet of cities and how Mother Earth is our motherboard. In the second week,
we thought about ourselves as Gaias reflective organ with integral intelligence, inside.
And last week, we looked at how to align strategies to prosper in the city: How can design
logic processes that connect all the dots? And this last week, we are looking at how we can
amplify all of these intelligences that weve looked at through getting in touch with our
evolutionary power source.
So I framed todays theme around a combination of two intelligences. And the first
intelligence is the evolutionary intelligence, which I define in my book as the capacity to
transcend and include the intelligences we currently demonstrate in order to allow new
intelligences to emerge. And combined with that, I also want to invite in our inner
intelligence, which I define as the I space of each citizen: I. It is the seat of intentional
consciousness, attention, interior experience, and intelligences or lines of development,
for example: emotional, cognitive, and spiritual.
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And today, Im really delighted that Ill be joined by the thought leader, Terry Patten. And I
want to introduce to you Terry as a friend who has been a tremendous influence on my
life. Terry is a leading voice, as many of you already know, in the emerging fields of
Integral-Evolutionary leadership and spirituality. With Ken Wilber and the Integral
Institute, he co-authored, Integral Life Practice, which distills ancient and modern
practices into a contemporary transformational life-style. Terry serves as adjunct faculty
in the Integral Executive Leadership program at Notre Dame University, on the editorial
board of the Journal of Integral Theory and Practice, and the board of directors of the
Wellspring Institute for Neuroscience and Contemplative Wisdom. He was a student and
editor in the ashram of Adi Da Samraj and later founded the catalog company, Tools for
Exploration, which defined the field of consciousness technologies. He leads Integral
Spiritual Practice, an online practice community, and continues his acclaimed interview
series, Beyond Awakening. His 2013 book, The Integral Revolution, which is being co-
authored with Marco Morelli, explores evolutionary tensions and offers healthy practices
to unite spiritual practice, collective intelligence, and responsible citizenship. I first met
Terry through our mutual friend, Bert Parlee, and have since had the privilege of dialog
with him on many occasions in our professional and personal lives. I am actually addicted
to Terrys global-centric spiritual wisdom, so at any opportunity that I can, I am really
delighted to be with him. So, Im extra-specially happy that Terry joins and, in fact, crowns
our series of thought leaders on this journey through exploration of what it takes create a
new operating system for the city. Terry, welcome to the Integral City 2.0 Online
Conference.
Terry Patten: Thank you so much, Marilyn. Its great to be here with you and everyone
whos gathered here, now, and asynchronously.
Marilyn Hamilton: Yes, its really wonderful that we both have this experience of not only
the power of face-to-face, which always lights up whenever I am in your presence. And we
also have this experience of the reality of this technological connection thats emerged
over the last decade and, I think, in very powerful ways. I know when I listen to your
ongoing series of interviewing spiritual leaders from around the world through Beyond
Awakening, it gives me the opportunity to relate to a community that I cant otherwise get
to in real time. So I hope that in this series, for the city, we manage to something the same
thing.
So, Terry, let me just set up how Ive been thinking about this inner intelligence, and how I
think your ways of looking at spiritual and evolutionary intelligence can help inform us
about what might happen if we learn from you.
I actually have three principles identified, related to inner intelligence. I say the first one is
you have to show up and be self-aware, be present, be mindful. The second is, notice the
city intelligences and map them integrally. And the third is, actually to grow leadership in
heart, mind, and soul. So these actually are really trying to address the I as opposed to
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the it of individual leaders. And yesterday, we actually explored, with Steve McIntosh
and a number of others, the it space. And you know, Terry, youre probably not very
surprised to learn that it was really hard to do that on its own. In fact, it was impossible.
We could only really talk about that it space when we also brought in the I space and
the we space. And so, I thought the question I would start off our dialog this morning
with is: How are you noticing the relationship between the I of spirit and the we of
spirit in the city today? What are you noticing about that relationship?
Terry Patten: Well, the thing that I can see is that across the last less than a decade,
maybe the roots of it are something like nine years and its certainly accelerated
tremendously in the last three years, theres been an explosion of excitement about
collective intelligence and the we space. And a lot of people are now meeting and getting
together with small groups, both in-person and virtually, and tuning in to the shared,
higher states of consciousness that they can experience and the kinds of intelligence that
can come through them together. And this discovery of a higher we and a higher way of
being in inter-subjective connection that actually has, in technical-integral terms, not just
a higher stage of consciousness, but actually entering into higher states, has been a real
point of excitement. This is not a very widespread phenomenon, however. You know, this
is something thats going on in a relatively small, sophisticated, Integral-Evolutionary
community. So the edges of whats going on in the more public and therefore more
mainstream and more influential levels is probably different. Nonetheless, I think that this
is an impulse to prototype something, to explore something, and to begin to create
different ways of being together and birthing a higher, new kind of we that might have
just enough self-validating awakeness and intensity and capacity to meet challenges and
to rise beyond the usual points of misunderstanding and disconnection that tend to divide
people in their inter-subjective connections; that these experiments might make a huge
difference, ultimately, so, maybe prototyping something that has a lot of significance.
Now, entering in to this higher we usually is deepest and most meaningful when it has
the foundation of some real spiritual practice of each of the individuals. The higher I has
been one of the necessary ingredients of the higher we in our early experiments. So, I
certainly see that.
As I describe this, focusing attention on these experiments in we space, I realize that we
can have this discussion about that, or we could turn our attention to the ways that we see
learning percolating down into the mainstream naturally, despite the fact that our public
dialog has become so balkanized and divided with people watching and listening and
reading on websites and programs and communities of discourse that largely reflect their
prejudices and not interacting with one another as much, and this being one of the
contributing factors to the phenomenon of hyper-partisan gridlock that we see, at least in
the United States, in our political life. Are we getting hip to some of the ways were
creating that, and is that learning changing something about the polity and the public
culture? Both of those are interesting questions we might pursue.
5
Marilyn Hamilton: Well, I think that is a really interesting invitation, because one of the
tensions or opportunities for exploration that you embody in my experience is not only do
you have this deep, really-lived [sitting] spirit in you, youre also an activist. And you
havent shied away across your entire adult life, perhaps even younger than that, in
becoming actively involved in making a difference. What kind of tensions have you
experienced even in the process of doing that? Do you find that there are conflicts that you
have to overcome, or does the spiritual impulse in you lead you to become the activist?
Terry Patten: Well, for me, theyre really one. Its an aspect of the moral foundations of
my life. And its right there in Integral theory that we arise in four quadrants. We are not
just ourselves. We have a social and a political and therefore civic dimension to our lives.
And our subjective and inter-subjective awakenings have How do I express this
imperative in a way that isnt overly patriarchal? But theres just an inherent imperative. If
we can awaken, we have to do our best to embody that awakening in every possible way,
including changing the structures.
Because we are so aware now that were thinking meta-systemically, we see how powerful
the Lower Right quadrant, the systems we live in, how powerfully they shape our cultural
life and our individual lives and relationships. So we cant help, I think, but feel the
importance of doing what we can to shift them. And I dont think that everybody feels
called in exactly the same way. Not everybody embraces the identity and activity of an
activist, necessarily. But I think theres an obligation to embody a healthy response,
because were in a time of crisis. We can see that there are institutional breakdowns of all
kinds going on, and the potential devastation that some of that breakdown can bring to so
many of those we care about and the values we care about. That this is not only something
that has moral force at the level of individual human beings, but even at the level of the
evolution of both consciousness and culture and everything we value.
So the importance of us embodying this in a way that makes a difference is huge. And I
dont always see how to be a fully effective activist. I see it as an obligation to practice
activism just the way I would practice any other aspect of my spiritual practice. You put in
your time on the mat even when youre not having a streak of deep meditations. You still
do it as a regular practice. Well similarly, we dont always see that we can transform the
politics around us. And the gestures we can make as activists are, perhaps, having a small
effect, or the heart aspires to so much more than we can realistically hope to accomplish.
But I think that the practice of activism is just a dimension of spiritual practice. That is,
waking up is love. And waking up and love are service in action. And activism is really just
an expression of that impulse toward service that identifies the obligation to shift the
structures.
Because its so hard, many people dont really want to be an activist. Its sort of ugly.
Activism, often, is populated by people at comparatively earlier stages of development,
with a quality of discourse that is kind of a buzz kill. It turns us off. We dont really want to
6
hang out with that level of discourse. And so, I think the thing that powers me there is a
moral sense that it would be a cop-out not to. So, to me, the same thing that has me
wanting to wake up has me wanting to love; has me realizing that I have to find a way to
express that as an activist.
And yet, that has to be lit by that sense of not knowing, that sense of mystery, the sense
that whats manifesting through evolution is bigger than my strategic mind. I need to do
everything I can to be a force for love and service in the world, and harmony, coherence
and balance. But Im also simply applying as enlightened a perspective as I can. But all
human perspectives, however true, are also partial. Therefore, I dont have the
responsibility to redesign the evolutionary process. Im doing my part in it by attempting
to bring my best understanding, but what is going on is always going to exceed it.
That is not just humility, its a sense of humor. It relieves me of a kind of grimness, that is
the worst thing, the most unhealthy thing about most conventional activism. People think
they know much more than they do, and therefore theres a kind of anxiety that animates
activist communities hand-wringing over care, typical of post-modern extremist
overwrought emotion. Its very important that activism not have that quality. If its to be
truly helpful, it has to be grounded in a whole different feeling about it all.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thats a really interesting juxtaposition of where were exploring this
I intelligence in our conference, and where we are in relationship to the whole
conference, at the penultimate day. I created the conference in a way that it was a giant
action research experiment. Expecting that there would be many things that we dont
know. That there would be emergence and that we would discover as we went along,
having the opportunity to be in the not-knowing in a very grand way.
Even as Ive invited in thought leaders and designers and practitioners of each intelligence,
weve discovered that they dont necessarily know one another, or of each others work,
even. Its an opportunity to be in a we-space together. I think we could characterize this
experiment as an intensive on the city, for the last month. In calling in all of these
intelligences, weve been trying to notice what is it that they can inform us about the spirit
of the city. Is there such a thing as a spirit that arises not just from the individuals, but into
some kind of a collective space? Your words of humility and humor have certainly
informed me as how we might be able to hold this long enough and lightly enough to
notice if theres something new emerging through us as individuals, and as a result, able to
tell us, could we possibly conceive of cities as Gaias reflective organ.
Going back to something you introduced early on in your comments, this whole idea of
collective intelligence. That emerged as an underlying impulse that we wanted to explore
in the conference as well. Ive always had this intuitive sense that cities were going to be
an enormous source of collective intelligence. I guess Im a little ahead of everybody elses
expectations. Tell me a little more about how youre seeing collective intelligence emerge
in the experiments that youve talked about. Those experiments harken us back to the first
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week of the conference, where Buzz Holling really told us that how systems become
resilient is that they experiment a lot in certain stages, so they can figure out what works.
It may take a whole series of experiments to figure out what works. Are you seeing some
experiments that you think may have more potential for them than others?
Terry Patten: I definitely do. What Im seeing is different kinds of experiments. One thing
thats interesting, in terms of the design of experiments, there are experiments that are, by
their nature, open. That is, anybody can call in, sign up for this series, and participate. Its
an open structure. Whereas if we formed a deep study group, and ten of us met on a
regular basis, and deepened over time, and got to know one another, that would be a
closed system. Open systems are wonderful in many, many important ways. We need
them. But we need closed systems, too. You cant go that deep unless you establish enough
familiarity and intimacy and shared experience that you have a basis for that resonance to
build momentum over time. You need, therefore, to have a closed system for that
experiment to deepen.
These experiments in collective intelligence are of two kinds. There are state experiences,
where people go into exercises with one another, often with strangers. And yet, get
outside themselves, on the basis, perhaps, of some degree of spiritual practice already
under their belt. They discover that in connection with other people, there are
transpersonal states of being that activate their own intelligence in different ways. Thats
happening more and more. I think that theres something very fruitful about that. The
discovery that we are smarter than me. Its not just smarter, its more awake maybe
more wise. We are wiser than me.
I think its important that we face the fact that what is called for now is profound, and kind
of beyond our strategic design. That is, our conception, even of the kind of intelligence
were growing into, is still something that is, by its nature, perhaps profoundly true, but
still partial. That is, were used to being to apply a lot of rigor to the process of our
dialectic, of our more complex thinking. To use models for consideration that require us to
become more sophisticated, to pay attention to the way were paying attention, and the
process by which were thinking. To look at different kinds of thinking that are analytical,
or phenomenological. We have a kind of epistemological sophistication. Thats about
knowing, being smarter. But then theres also this matter of being wiser. We cant be wiser
if all our attention is used up on being smarter (laughs).
Our involvement in these very, very complex and sophisticated thinking structures that
really have to strain our capacities, because our world is so complex; for us to engage with
the challenges of our time, we have to open ourselves to a complexity that really exceeds
our linear capacity to apprehend fully. Thats a wonderful developmental tension thats
growing us, individually and collectively. But it tends, because it is so demanding, to use
up all our free attention. Therefore, theres not much attention left over to be spaciously
8
relaxed and aware in a way that isnt absorbed in all these objects of attention. That is, the
witness becomes yet another abstraction, rather than the spacious ground of attention.
Therefore one of the things I often discover is that we tend to be feeling as though we have
two alternatives. We can either be in a very deep space of powerful spiritual awakening
that is transmissive, but the spiritual teachers that are most transmissive are usually not
those who are offering the most complex and sophisticated ideas. The powerful state
transmission, and the waking up into a kind of luminous connectedness to Being itself, is
usually something we experience as one thing thats an alternative to the most
sophisticated and complex thinking thats adequate to the challenges of our time. That is,
higher states seem like an alternative to higher structures or stages of consciousness.
Whereas, of course, were at a time when both are needed. I think this is a developmental
challenge to us, personally and collectively.
For us to be in the city, were dealing with tremendous complexity. Cities are by their
nature the places where there are more relational exchanges, more conversations, more
financial transactions, more encounters with other people, the density of interaction is
highest in cities. Therefore, cities are both the place where culture grows most rapidly,
and the place where people bemoan the getting and spending, we lay waste our wealth.
From the times of the romantics, people would go up on the hill, get away from the
hurly-burly, in order to have their spiritual experiences. This same binary choice, between
the high state, which seems to be more pastoral, go to nature, have that inspiration, nature
mysticism. But then you go into the city and its full of content and distraction. Maybe its
more sophisticated and intelligent, but it isnt necessarily the place for spacious
restoration of connectedness to Being, itself.
I think were in a time in which the proliferation of new media, electronics, the web,
mobile devices, and all the different kinds of interactions that were doing, the density of
exchanges, is getting greater and greater. Were having this tremendous strain on our
attentional faculties. Where everybodys busier than theyve ever been. Theres more
information than anybody can keep up with. Were dealing with exhaustion at the level of
inputs. The city is the place where we already had more than we had in any other
environment. I think theres something about the extremes of whats going on right now
that will potentially create a tipping point, a breakthrough point, where therell be some
kind of breakdown, probably, but it would be my hope that the strain point isnt primarily,
or at least not only, negative. But that theres a breakthrough opportunity in which the
stress of that makes us, then, more self-aware about how we use our attention.
People can go on diets as to how they relate to their electronics. They need to then take up
yoga, meditation, or other practices, just in order to balance themselves. They need to be
more deliberate about how they use their attention at work. Self-management and time-
management are meta-awarenesses. Therefore the city, as we go through this process,
may in fact begin to be the place where we actually operationalize the developmental
9
imperative that we break through this apparent binary choice between the high states and
the higher structure/stage sophistication of our way of being with our mind and ourselves
and our challenges.
That is not so much the experiment that I see going on in the higher we-spaces. I see that
being a deepening of states. I think that does have a place, though, in this synthesis of
these two kinds of growth that Im hoping were going to be seeing emerging soon. I think
were in this time of experimentation, this evolutionary pressure to awaken. Were getting
to a place in which points of view are exhausting themselves. Thats a phrase that a
spiritual teacher, Candice ODenver, has used.
The idea, essentially, that almost everything that can be said or thought, is being said or
thought, somewhere. There are so many conversations going on on the web that there is a
kind of exhaustion of the content. Were beginning to see, in a way, that content is endless.
Therefore, perhaps having a different relationship to it, beginning to come to a different
relationship to our own minds, I think that that may be naturally evolving broadly in the
culture. That exhaustion may mean that these experiments in awakening with one another,
which are not just high states that we can enter into in a moment with strangers, but ones
in which we can deepen over time, with a closed community, that we practice with in a
serious way, and build coherence with over time, that may begin to shine forth as a beacon
of a kind of hope. Were prototyping the spare parts, you might say. Were building the
pieces of a way of being human that can meet the incredible challenges that were facing. I
think that these experiments are potentially critical, and that we might be doing
something of tremendous significance and value. Its with the hope that they can have that
broader impact that I know I feel most passionate about the ones Ive been devoting
myself to.
Marilyn Hamilton: I find that a powerful way of noticing some of the other things that
have come up in the conference, Terry. When we were speaking with Mark DeKay, who is
an integral architect and designer, we were talking about how designers build in beauty
into the city, into their designs, and also to capture it not just in individual buildings, its
kind of like thats symbolic, or maybe a direct outcome of what youre pointing to; the
need to create space in the city thats in relation to all thats come before. The many
different values that are actually expressed in existing built environments.
Yesterday when we were speaking with Peter Merry, he was giving us some of the
practices he uses to become grounded and stay that way in whatever environment hes in.
He acknowledged that, for him, he really needs to go into natural settings in order to
establish the rhythms that are natural in his body, so that he gets the kind of supportive
feedback, and that in the cities who have not yet created spaces that are supporting these
emerging worldviews, values and spiritual expressions, the term that was used yesterday
was that those are kind of like box structures, which are no longer sufficient to who we
have become as humans. I really appreciate that youre sharing this kind of dance between
10
deepening and widening of the state experience which allows us to really have some
experience of Onement, if you will. Of alignment with who we are in our evolutionary
beings.
And at the same time you point to the stages. I have used this term meshworking, and
call myself a meshworker, that I think captures the essence of that at its heart, which is we
need to continuously allow for self-organizing new discoveries and we can only really
make most use of them if we also, at some point, create the stages or structures that are
needed in order to hold that learning. Your description of breaking down because of the
exhaustion of content, well, I guess we just cant avoid that these days. I know you in the
United States at the moment are in the middle of a federal election, and youre being
bombarded every possible second with content about all of the candidates and points of
views along with all of the other monetization and regulation messages that we get
bombarded with. It seems to me that we are, in our cities, in a state where its quite
chaotic, and not peaceful in the cities. I do think that kind of dissonance may well be what
actually calls us to find a different way. Because, it may actually break us down, in order to
get us to a state where we can get to a breakthrough.
This brings me back, Terry, to the value of the collective that you point to as being a way of
creating a container, lets call it. A system that we can relate to, and that when we are with
others who have this experience that were sharing, and can really connect with each
other in order for us to compare notes. One of the great values of the integral framing that
I gleamed from Ken was every one of our points of view has some truth in it, but its
partial. Now weve got such an incredible parsing of the partiality that its really hard for
us to regain a sense of the wholeness. Thats been one of the objectives Ive been trying to
work through with this conference. How can we notice the wholeness of which we are a
part? And how can we reframe that at a more complex level, but not a more complicated
level. Youve opened up some possibilities for us to engage with complexity through some
kind of simplicity that emerges in the collective. I dont know if that makes any sense to
you, but thats whats coming up from listening to you.
Terry Patten: I like what youre saying. Its been my experience that as Ive encountered
the community around Kens work; Ive been reading Kens work for decades, but as Ive
encountered the community of integral practitioners, I was tremendously edified and
drawn to much more excellence and personally rich and valuable environment that I loved
and was very attracted to. But at times I felt that there was too much preoccupation with
the map, the content and the complexity. The value of any map is that it illuminates the
territory in a relatively it needs to be simple in order to be useful. If the complexity of
the map is too great, it then absorbs too much of our attention. At times Ive felt that. I
know that Ive gone back and forth between times when I felt the importance of
emphasizing the simplicity, and times when Ive felt the importance of emphasizing the
complexity.
11
Sometimes Ive felt that the two meanings of the word integral, in fact the two sides of
the meanings of the word, relate to the words that are etymologically related to it. Theres
integration, that points to all the parts being rightly related, and everything changing as
theyre all incorporated and connected rightly. Then theres also words like integer or
integrity that point to the wholeness, not the partness. I think this simplicity is the
awakening; its the higher state of awareness. The awakening beyond the content, the
ground of all this. Its our heart-connection to Being itself, and to the inherent beauty,
truth and goodness of existence that is our ground of our spirituality, its the ground of our
wisdom. Its the most luminous dimension of our connection with one another. Its the
experience we have sometimes when were engaging someone really deeply, and
something real begins to happen. The words that are spoken are not words weve ever
spoken before. Something begins to happen thats original and alive and creative and new.
In that process, we look at the eyes of the other and something of what is staring back at
us is our own brightness. That Beingness that is animating each of us is the greater
Beingness. We know ourselves not to be only the skin encapsulated separate one. Its that
confidence and that openness to that greater flow that enables us to stand together in
these really big questions that were being asked right now by life and evolution itself.
One of the most profound and ultimate teachings that I emphasize in my own work is the
invitation to hold the process of inquiry as an ultimate practice. That these questions
youre asking here about simplicity and complexity are developmental challenges. We
have questions for which we do not yet have sufficient embodied answers. These are not
merely intellectual ideas that we can get a right answer to. Theyre deeper questions that
kind of drive a wedge into us, like a koan. They eat away at us, and force us to become
bigger beings. Maybe one of the biggest things that can happen in the we-space is for us
to be resting in the simplicity of Being, but being stretched open by the incredible
complexity and urgency of our developmental challenges. And therefore to be alive
together in these bigger questions that life is asking of us together. Therefore to be able to
become more intimate with Being and each other and ourselves, all at once. More
profound, more tenderized, more broken open by the fragility of our shared and
individual life. Awake to the necessity that we become bigger, wider, truer, more awake,
more intelligent beings than we have ever known how to be. Not depressed by this, but
invigorated and able to be made bigger than we were a moment before, by not shrinking
from the humorous, but tremendously serious gravity of these bigger questions.
Marilyn Hamilton: Terry, I just want to invite our audience to sink into these pointing-
out instructions that you just gave us. Lets take a minute of silence just to notice that.
As we come out of the silence, lets all take one big breath together. The question I hold
these days, Terry in some cities, I know theres practices that bring people together five
times a day just to remind themselves about how theyre connected to a greater purpose.
Its as if this is a very ancient practice. The pointing-out instructions you just gave us is a
way for us to notice what we are being called into, in the incredible densifying of our
12
content exchange. That theres something more beyond that. This really felt-embodiment
of collective intelligence just now is very powerful. Is there anything else you wish to
share with us about what youve discovered how collective embodiment looks and feels?
Terry Patten: I think its interesting to look at the genealogies of practice of the higher
we. Theres a very important strain of influence that came through Andrew Cohen and
the EnlightenNext community. Which really emphasized a particular version of it which
had to do with people working very intensively to transcend their ego. Their work was
originally about impersonal enlightenment, and then it moved to evolutionary
enlightenment. These folks were working to become an open channel for something
beyond themselves individually. The evolutionary impulse was the word they used
getting awakened to where the Self could speak through them. But not just being the Self
out of time, but becoming the Self in time, could speak through them. What was alive in
that stream of higher we exchanges had to do with letting a different level of intelligence
find its words. Therefore, it would be like everybody together would be channeling this
evolutionary impulse, and speaking as that evolutionary impulse. That evolutionary
impulse would be coming through everyone more and more fully.
Then we began to see some other streams of collective intelligence that were expressed by,
certainly there was the big stream that you and I were a part of, Marilyn, in the larger
integral community, in which there was very sophisticated, engaged examination of
perspective; kind of just intelligent conversation. This whole series of that, and all our
work is an expression of those sophisticated ideas.
But then there these other state experiences that began to happen more and more
intensely, recently, that are expressed, for example, in the work of Austrian teacher
Thomas Hbl Im co-teaching a course with him right now on birthing a new we. This
has more to do with opening up beyond the personal and allowing our intuitive faculties
to access, in a non-linear, non-cognitive way, all kinds of information in the field that
would otherwise not be present. Beginning to recognize ourselves in partaking of a state
of radical presence and aliveness and spontaneity out of which the unexpected in which
we become, really, not at all skin-encapsulated egos, but kind of transducers for a larger
intelligence that flows through us. That doesnt necessarily have a predictable agenda.
Theres a little bit more of a philosophical basis to the original stream through the
EnlightenNext community. This is much more emergent and unpredictable.
I think that each of these different experiments is pointing us to ways of being transparent
to an intelligence that is beyond us personally, and partaking together of it, letting it flow
through us. I think its ultimately going to be important for us to do that, and at the same
time engage the linear, logical content of things with great sophistication. The honest truth
is, we dont know how to do that yet. So the pressure of being in the process of growing
beyond ourselves with a trajectory, a kind of imperative, that we go way beyond our
current level of embodiment, is itself a developmental tension that were living under.
13
Feeling all this can seem overwhelming and can confuse us, and kind of seem too much. Or
we can find a way of being really present to it all that kind of inspires our best, and wakes
us up.
So I think theres a big piece of this practice thats being right now able to be tweaked
awake and inspired and given hope, in the sense of possibility, by developmental
challenges that will take us years to embody. Can we be alive to a possibility that we cant
just rise to right now, and still be rising right now? Let that bigger challenge not
discourage us, but in a sustained way, give us a deep, slow source of strength and
intelligence that can power us over years with a kind of consistency. I dont think Ive ever
seen anything quite like that.
Marilyn: Yes. If anyone was going to bring that message into this conference, I suspected
it might be you, Terry. So thank you for actually expressing my sense of what amplifying
evolutionary intelligences may involve. I really appreciate that youre undertaking a
continued series of experiments, too. I look forward to sharing what we discover out of
this conference and learning from you what youre going to discover out of that year-long
experiment of opening to something that is emergent, and I love that word youre using,
transducers. I see that as a possible deepening of our understanding of what it might
mean to be Gaias reflective organs. That we could be transducers of a higher intelligence.
So Terry I could happily monopolize the time and talk to you for the rest of our 90 minutes,
but I do see some people wanting to ask some questions, so Id like to invite Eric to open
up our questions and answers.
Eric Troth: Thank you, and a deep appreciation for whats being explored here, leaning
into a developmental tension thats calling us to new ways of relating and perceiving. How
we cant solve our problems from the same level of thinking, and the need to rise beyond
the rational, linear mode of trying to perceive things. Lets hear from Shanti.
Shanti: Thank you, Terry for all the great work youre doing. Theres been two typical
paths: the typical outward activist path, trying to change the world, thats outward focused.
And a typical inward path, thats more self-absorbed, private and withdrawn from the
world. I see this spiritual activism of fully merging the two. In one view they can be looked
at as on opposite ends of the spectrum. How do you best suggest for merging those two
deeply, and in action? Thank you.
Terry Patten: Let me ask you to speak a little more, before I launch into an answer. Do
you mean that theres what we might call a state simplicity, or the structure-complexity
seem to stretch us into whole different developmental growth trajectories, and they seem
like theyre at two different extremes, and how do we do both of them at once? Is that
what youre asking about?
Shanti: Its not that theyre necessarily opposite ends of the same continuum. But one of
them is typically outward focused the activist trying to change the world and the other
14
one is typically inward-focused towards ones own spiritual path. With the integration of
the two, that I see you doing brilliantly in your work, how do you suggest or recommend
to people, specifically in the context of working on changing our cities, and creating a new
model of an integral city. Merging that outward, trying to change the world with that
inward focus. Because, they seem to be pulling you in opposite directions at once.
Terry: Yes. Heres what I can say to you in a personal way that I think is really authentic.
You feel drawn to both these things in some authentic way. Thats where the question
comes from, is your own draw some part of you wants to go on a deep meditation
retreat for big chunks of your time, and really let that focus go very, very profoundly in the,
you might say, inward direction. Some part of you really wants to give yourself to serving
others, and outward activism. I think the fact that both those things are alive in you is
naturally transforming your relationship to each. You cant embrace one to the exclusion
of the other anymore. And your way of doing your inner work isnt ever going to be
completely reductive and disconnected from outer work. Nor can your way of relating to
the outer work delete yourself from the equation. You realize that everything you do in the
outer work is a spiritual practice. Youre going to end up expressing your consciousness in
whatever you do in your activism. Therefore your way of being in life is going to have to
be an expression of both inner and outer work. And your inner work will be not solipsistic,
and your outer work will not be just outer. This is the essence of every integral path is
that we are the cauldron in which the synthesis is finding its way forward.
There are all kinds of little things we can say about that. Like its important, I think, to
wake up every morning, and do a practice, and meditate, and interrupt the momentum of
the mind in the midst of activity with practices in random moments throughout the day.
Its important to understand your mission and your calling and your activism in terms of
the service that youre giving to the world. That your self-actualization is not just about
yourself; its really about giving a gift and becoming an open channel. All of those kind of
spiritualized understandings of outer action, and the sense of calling, and your relatedness
to a larger world being an inspiration for deepening your consciousness, thats the essence
of what integral approaches always are. Theyre always the both-and, rather than either-
or.
Yet, the rhetoric of giving an answer to questions like this seems, then, to close the
question. Whereas the whole value of the inquiry is that it stays open, and that we stay
inquired of by it. If you continuing to stay in the sense of tending to alternate between the
inner and the outer, and youre not tending to synthesize them completely, even though
you are a place of the synthesis, that synthesis can become more profound, and you can
become more fully integrated, and therefore the inquiry is ongoing, and it keeps drawing
you forward and asking more of you. And you keep growing through staying related to all
of this, and knowing that youre in a moment in which evolution is asking human beings to
become something theyve never been before, and theres some way that you can become
15
something youve never been before. That aliveness of being on the edge of possibility,
drawing you forward thats the most alive and real thing Id want to respond by saying.
Shanti: Thank you.
Eric Troth: Thats beautiful, Terry. That edge of the aliveness of possibility something
Marilyn invited a little earlier, to take another moment to be quiet and sit with this, see
whats resonating. Lets take a moment to let this wash over us right now.
I notice that even taking one minute to be silent, so much starts to shift in that moment. I
felt myself open my mind, to drop down and be with our breathing and our bodies.
Something starts to open up, as I extend my awareness into the space around me, not only
my physical space, but the space between all of us as were in this container exploring
together. Feeling into the center of our circle, if you will. Whats starting to ripen in there?
Maybe Terrys pointing out about the questions that arent answered, that rhetorically we
can provide an answer, and there might be some comfort and satisfaction at one level of
our being. But theres another edge that we can play, of staying in the not-knowing,
staying with what youve referred to as a koan. Really, the longer we live with that,
something new comes into being.
Terry Pattern: Something new is always coming into being. Sometimes the new that
comes into being is very, very similar to what was here before. Patterns carry forward.
Sometimes were here; consciousness is here. And creativity is possible. Choice is possible.
And novelty. That is, exceeding, going beyond the condition of the past pattern or habit. To
whats possible. All we have to do is notice, trust, and deepen. Choose, show up, willing to
be explicitly uncomfortable (laughs).
Eric Troth: Which, paradoxically, almost becomes something desirable, to be in that place
thats explicitly uncomfortable. Because we feel that as a growing edge. That somehow the
regular notions of comfort become a lot less satisfying. We can feel the aliveness of that in
this moment; its pregnant with possibilities. Exciting. (long silence)
Feeling that new we opening up in this moment; theres an aliveness in the air space.
Marilyn Hamilton: Also feeling how were breaking all the rules, in simply being in
silence. (long silence) To acknowledge the generative space that youve created here that
is at once so simple and so complex as all of the people and cities that are on this live call,
all the people in cities on this planet that will be listening to the recorded call [and reading
the transcript.] The flowing out space of this all-too-short time together with you. If
anything arose through you that youd like us to take away as a question that can keep our
inquiry going, what a city might need for a new operating system that amplifies its
evolutionary power source.
Terry Patten: When I work with people really deeply, what I often discover is theres
almost kind of a raw spiritual existential challenge to stay, or return, to a deep connection
to God, to free consciousness, to our sense of possibility to that which inspires us. Rather
16
than to read ourselves in the eyes of others who might be seeing us as limited beings, or
the karmic momentum, and the tendencies in projecting the past trends out into the future,
and getting scared or alarmed. And kind of being a creature of the karmic perspectives,
just caught in the points of view about the content of experience. In a away it sometimes
becomes a contest between hope and despair. Sometimes its a contest between
awakening and fear, or love and fear.
For some people, some of us may be pretty well established in a fundamentally positive
and creative relationship to life, may not be tending to succumb to the discouragement of
the karmic perspective so much. Im not sure. But I feel like the full brilliance, the
penetrating potency of this evolutionary call is very hard to stay related to. Therefore, it
requires us to choose again and again. But the thing that that requires is for us to open,
almost like a flower, again and again, in this very tender way. Its a coming alive to the
very depths of ourselves, again and again. Out of that theres a choice, theres a yes! to
possibility. We become evolution finding its way to a healthy response to these
challenging moments. And it really does need the people who are hearing these words
are among the people who can be that healthy expression in this time. Even if were not
outwardly terribly powerful. We are, actually, ways that evolution is trying new stuff out.
And we are the way it is happening. What is happening with us, matters. Taking ourselves
humorously seriously. Being willing to do that is a constant opportunity. Yet if too many
ordinary life challenges, if your computer and plumbing are breaking down, and your car
payment this, or person mad at you that, or whatever disappointment or body ache or
whatever it is thats tending to draw you into a point of view that is losing that bigger
perspective. Just honor honor honor the apparently humdrum, ordinary, tawdry little
struggling aspect of your own process. Let yourself be accurately related. This is the noble,
beautiful, great spiritual process. This simple, ordinary human thing that you are actually
confronted with, that I am actually confronted with. Its just us dying human body-minds
who can care and notice and open and awaken. We are the way that evolution is
advancing, and spirit is finding its way into form. The actual possibility in your life is
where the rubbers meeting the road. It is sacred. You are sacred. These actual
choicepoints matter tremendously. You deserve your own respect. You deserve your own
love. You deserve to honor and take seriously even the not-terribly glorious ways that that
expresses itself in the struggling moments of ordinary moment-to-moment experience.
And its by doing that, and then finding others, that the we is going to awaken. This is
how we each ante in to that bigger game. That bigger, sacred, holy, great, game.
Marilyn Hamilton: Thank you, Terry. A deep Namaste from me, and you have called forth
from one of our colleagues, Beth, a poem. I would ask her to read it.
Beth: Inquiry always asks for more
aliveness weve never been before
something new is always
17
coming into being
patterns carry forward
creativity, novelty
notice, trust, deepen
choose
show up
explicitly
uncomfortable
in silence
simple and complex
amplifying
evolutionary power
raw, whole
honour

1
Source
Craig Hamilton, Bruce Sanguin
September 26, 2012

Craig Hamilton is founder of Integral Enlightenment, offering spiritual
guidance and teachings to a growing international community of thousands of
students in 30 countries around the world. He calls us to awaken beyond the
confines of the separate ego and dedicate our lives to the further evolution of
consciousness itself. Craig is a founding member of Ken Wilber's Integral
Institute, a member of Deepak Chopra's Evolutionary Leaders Forum, and was
a participant in the Synthesis Dialogues, a 35-person interdisciplinary think
tank presided over by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His celebrated conversations with other
luminaries are regularly heard by New Dimensions Radios seven million listeners, and form
the basis of two acclaimed webinar series, The Great Integral Awakening: Pioneering A New
Spiritual Path, and "Awakening the Impulse to Evolve: The Birth of Evolutionary Spirituality.
A contributor to Shift magazine and co-author of IONS 2008 Shift Report, he is also co-writer
of the forthcoming documentary filmTHE SHIFT.
Bruce Sanguin, M.Div, grew up in Winnipeg and spent his teens and early
twenties as a jock. He graduated from the University of Winnipeg without, as
far as he can remember, having read a book. Except one, by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi on Transcendental Meditation. This woke him up to vocation that
transcended, (yet included of course), the dream of dunking the b-ball and
playing professional tennis. TM gave way to born again Christianity, to liberal
Christianity, to the total loss of conviction (they are connected), to
evolutionary Christian mysticism and the blessed return of something beyond/within context
and perspective. He spends most of his time trying to figure out how to put the breaks on the
evolutionary impulse. Bruce has been an ordained minister in the United Church of Canada
for 25 years and is a clinical member of the American Association of Marriage and Family
therapy. Hes Anns husband (24 years and counting), a father to Sarah, an actress and
musician in LA, grandfather to four, and author of four books www.ifdarwinprayed.com.
Beth Sanders: Bruce Im going to start with you, with a question about how the faith
community organizes itself to support the city?
Bruce Sanguin: Let me begin by something that I was sharing with you, just before the
interview started, Beth. Before you and Marilyn [Hamilton] put this question to me it was
interesting, because I realized that I hadnt spent a lot of time imagining the church as a
cell in the body of the city or, in service to the city. So this has been a wonderful
provocation to get me to scale up if you like, in terms of imagining that a faith community
a church community does have a role in shaping the field, or the spirit of the city. So I
have appreciated that.
The congregation that I am currently serving in Vancouver, [British Columbia] Canada
the Canadian Memorial United church we actually have as our mission, teaching and
practicing evolutionary Christian mysticism, which is a more evolutionary Christianity. So
we are trying to imagine how stepping into the incredible creativity of an evolving
universe, both shapes how we think about spirit or God and how we show up for and with
each other and what our role is in the city and in the world itself. In a way it is a big
laboratory for taking seriously this discovery of science that we are involved with the
universe; that is making this creative advance toward deeper expressions of beauty and
truth and goodness and compassion. And, that we are the presence of all that creativity
after 13.7 billion years and able to consciously evolve. And so it is a wonderful time for us.
I have been developing courses and freeing up my time to develop courses to actually help
people to steep themselves in this larger identity. And let me just also say, Beth, that as I
began to think about this, because of the way that you framed this invitation, I began to
ask myself, well is there anything in our lineage? You know in Scripture itself that might
inform this conversation about the city? And I realized in the very last chapter of the Bible
the Book of Revelations - there is this wonderful image of a new Jerusalem, as an
expression of the new creation that is emerging. So it fascinated me that when we try to
imagine this theme of the role of the Christ, in unifying and making whole the tradition
that is called salvation, it is imagined at the scale of the city itself. When you read this text,
it talks about how, first, there would be an alleviation of suffering. And so one of the things
all churches the way in which churches - have imagined themselves serving the integrity
of the city, has been to play a role in the alleviation of suffering - with the recognition that
the presence of unnecessary suffering is not supportive of this advance of love, the
advance of compassion. And so to take this [understanding from the] axial age one of the
key insights was that we were actually here to alleviate suffering. So traditionally the
church has been involved in [this] - for example we are involved in the downtown East
side [of Vancouver] with the homeless, making meals for the folks down there and sharing
with them.
It is interesting that [it is in] the first Jerusalem (not the new Jerusalem) that Jesus is
portrayed in three of the gospels, lamenting about the old Jerusalem. Jerusalem Jerusalem
would that you knew the things that made for peace. And so I think in the second axial
age that we are entering into, we can ask ourselves, what are the things that make for
peace that includes this traditional response to suffering and the alleviation of suffering?
And I was thinking this city of peace also involves stepping into the sacred evolutionary
impulse itself and helping to shift peoples consciousness. So a big part of what were
doing in the congregation that I serve is to create a domain where people can realize that
who they imagine themselves to be, is much bigger than who we ordinarily think of
ourselves to be. When we expand into this identification with the universe itself, we are
the universe in human form, evolving. We gain access to a whole other level of intelligence,
at a whole other dimension of power and this kind of urgency to bring forth a future that
needs us in order to emerge.
I am imagining the community of faith, whether at the church or synagogue or temple, has
a domain of creative emergence, where we actually try to cultivate the conditions for this
natural evolutionary impulse to re-form us And in the context of what we are doing here
today contributing to this new Jerusalem, to the city of peace in the 21st century. So I will
stop there and take a breath and let you respond to that Beth.
Beth Sanders: Bruce I am curious about the role of suffering in this journey and your
perspective on that?
Bruce Sanguin: Well I think, you know in evolutionary spirituality and Christianity, we
realize that on the one hand, suffering can be a provocation to new intelligences that the
crisis of suffering is always a prelude to a new birth if we undergo the suffering
consciously with intentionality. And so suffering in and of itself is not a bad thing because
it can be an evolutionary provocation for new intelligences to arise. But unnecessary
suffering, just allowing some of our citizens to remain homeless and hungry for example,
say in the context of Vancouver, I dont think serves this advance of compassion. And so
there is a big movement in Vancouver to address the homelessness issues, so that the
suffering of that part of the body, of that part of the hive, actually becomes an evocation of
new intelligences as [we] open our hearts.
And I think there is a place in evolutionary spirituality, or there needs to be a place to
recognize that it is often in the presence of suffering that opens us [up to] attending to the
fragile places, to the vulnerable places, both within and without, that opens up a channel
for this evolutionary grace. And sometimes it is missed in the way we talk about
evolutionary spirituality, because we are so caught up in this other dimension which is
real, this ecstatic urgency of realizing we can consciously shape the future that sometimes
we pass over deep attention to our own brokenness, our own suffering and to the
suffering of others.
Beth Sanders: Thats beautiful. Thank you for that Bruce. Craig, I want to put a similar
question to you. I want to start our dialogue around, how does the spiritual community
organize itself to serve the city?
Craig Hamilton: Interesting, Beth, Ive been sitting here and trying to find a way into the
city conversation. Its fascinating to know that I have never lived in the city myself. I have
always tended to live in the country, near the citys and sometimes as far away from the
city as I can get.
And in terms of my own spiritual teaching work Ive really been entirely focused on
building a global spiritual community, using all the technologies that are available to us
now. And reaching people all over the world and bringing in a sense almost kind of, to
some degree - kind of opposite to what you have in the city, because the kind of work I am
doing is really in the same ilk as evolutionary spirituality that Bruce was speaking about.
Awakening to the evolutionary impulse within us, realizing us; the same impulse that gave
birth to the cosmos and [has been] creatively unfolding its miraculous nature ever since
and is now excitedly doing so as human beings waking up.
But in a sense Ive been creating places for like-minded people who are tapped into that
impulse out at the leading edge to come together and support each other, so almost in a
sense the contemporary virtual monastery, ashram, kind of environment, where we are
able to live outside the world context together at least virtually in the spaces that we are
creating. Of course, everybody then goes to their normal lives which might be in cities or
in any context.
I was trying to think about your question and see what do I really have to offer, I mean to
the whole notion of how the spiritual community serves the city? Honestly the truth is I
have no idea. From looking at it from an evolutionary point of view I guess what I would
hope and I guess what I am seeing in the people in my work who are engaged, maybe on a
more different level, as their sort of mission to work in the world, is that as people begin
to awaken to this evolutionary impulse and take responsibility for it and as we begin to
realize that evolution is now to a significant degree - at least a big part of what is going to
happen evolutionarily for the cosmos is in our hands its up to those of us who have the
free time to develop ourselves, to come together and show concern for the larger systems
that we are a part of and begin to evolve those consciously and challenge the status quos
and bring our creativity to that - now in a sense I suppose thats what I would see as the
highest level of service. So certainly we could talk about many levels of, you know, some of
which Bruce is talking about alleviating suffering on the basic level, hunger and
homelessness and things like that, but then maybe where I can go is but how else might
this serve? Might we be awakening spiritual community, the community of people who are
truly waking up to their own nature of divine instruments in the world? Then serve the
elevation of the whole process and elevation of the city that they are a part of? And that
would be to enter into a kind of truly sacred creative act of evolving all the structures of
the city.
So, what Im imagining here are a sort of template city, or a prototype city in which we
have enough of a center of gravity, or a kind of critical mass of people awakening to the
larger context for their lives. For realizing it is not about me getting what I want, or even
not just me waking up spiritually and having a deeper and more fulfilled life. Its really
about me becoming a more valuable vessel for the infinite to enter into form and then
create structures in this world of form that express the infinite. That express the
perfection and [then] also this evolutionary impulse, and co-creativity out at the edge.
So Im sensing in this kind of prototype city with this critical mass awakening, just seeing
this open innocent, incredibly optimistic, forward leaning creativity being brought to
every civic structure, from how we engineer the city to make it more livable and not just
sustainable but thriving and moving forward and down to taking care of our people and
how we organize on every level. And, so to getting involved in politics locally too probably.
And getting out there, as my friend Marianne Williamson is getting more spiritually alive
people to run for office - imagine that. So really on every level that that awakening impulse
starting to find its way into every way that human beings organize themselves that is a
vision that excites me...so that is what I am sensing.
Beth Sanders: What you are both articulating is how fresh it is to look at the city in this
way. Just before we got into the interview Bruce and I were talking about how so many
people, that Marilyn and David and I have been interviewing over the course of this
conference - we are in day 11 of 12 today so that is quite a few people. We have been
interacting with many of whom do not know each other. Some do, that are working all
around the planet in their own unique ways offering their full vocational evolutionary
selves, and it all adds up to something quite significant. We have organized the conference
so that each day focuses on one of what Marilyn refers to as an evolutionary intelligence
and today fortuitously, at the very end here, we are looking at Inner Intelligence - the I
space of each citizen. But what we are really asking you to talk about, is the I space of the
city as a holon. And that is a new thing for us to talk about and contemplate.
Bruce, how has it been to think about the scale of the city like this and how have you
wrapped your head your heart and your soul into this question?
Bruce Sanguin: Well you know as you picked up, I am a lot like Craig and you mentioned
this too. Before this invitation I had not really thought about it. Just staying in the mythic
lineage both scriptural witness even the pre-modern its interesting that the author
of this Book of Revelations, he writes not to the seven churches themselves but to the
Spirit of the seven churches, or to the Angel of the seven churches. So there is a sense in
which he is writing to a corporate personality of the churches and realizes that if
transformation is going to happen he is going to have to contend with the particular
qualities and characteristics of the corporate personality of this community of faith.
So I find it interesting [for] myself a consultant if I am called into work with a church, I
carry this in my mind. Whats the feel of the Angel? Or the Over-Spirit of this community
of faith? And it turns out they can be quite different. You know you can have a generous
Angel. But they are not always good - they can be parsimonious, they can be bitter, they
can be mean-spirited. Or they can also be open-hearted so its a great question of how
we use it in discernment?
It would be interesting to sit with city councilors and spend a day asking them collectively
to tap into this holon to the I of the city. And see how they would characterize what are
the qualities and characteristics of the City Hall holon? And begin to work at that level,
then let the articulation of that filter down to the various departments of the city the way
we organize ourselves. I dont have a lot of experience doing that I dont have any
experience doing that at the level of the city.
But with churches I do. In a way you could think of a local community of faith as a kind of
microcosm of the city and that the whole spiral is present in a community of faith of
multiple world views. You have different genders, you have different sexual orientations,
you have multiple generations, and you have to somehow tap into the creative tent that is
big enough - the tent of emergence - is big enough to allow each of those people to step
into what is next for them.
But , you know, I really admire what Craig is doing at the global level, building global
citizenship, and that needs to happen. It is incredible what you are doing Craig. And what I
find at the local level, when youre actually dealing with, you know, flesh and blood people,
its pretty tricky. You are then contending with all of the neuroses, all the shadow of all of
these people.
Craig Hamilton: Yah, I dont have to deal with any of that in my program. Everyone just
shows up in their angelic form, its an amazing thing. (laughter)
Beth Sanders: What a lovely glow you live in Craig!
Bruce Sanguin: Well, I know thats not absolutely true.
Craig Hamilton: Bruce, I think the distinction you're making if I might, is just that when
you start dealing at a local level, say a city level, you're no longer dealing with a self-
selected group of like-minded spiritually aligned people who are coming together solely
for that purpose. Now you are dealing with people at all different levels of development,
at all different spiritual orientations and saying then, how do we start to create a we
space, when there is so much individual difference even at the most fundamental levels. Is
that kind of what you were...?
Bruce Sanguin: Yeah thanks Craig. That really clarifies it. I can tell you that a lot of
leadership at a congregational level (and I can imagine this is true of any particular
spiritual community of any particular lineage), is managing people from basically killing
each other...
Craig Hamilton: laughter...
Bruce Sanguin: and thrashing each other. I mean just so much energy has to go into
competencies around communication.
Beth Sanders: Well and Bruce, you are really articulating what it means to be in the hot-
bed of the city.
For me, our manifestation in cities is part of our evolutionary impulse. And one of the
purposes of city as we gather in cities and as they grow and grow is there are more and
more of us in them. There are more and more differences in them and we are creating the
very conditions for ourselves to experience conflict and tension, which is (of course you
know) the swinging back and forth between the interior and exterior of, and our
relationships with other people, that is part of the conditions we've created and are
created for us, for us to grow and evolve.
I'm really curious about the two different scales at which the two of you are working. I'm
imagining Bruce, on the ground in the flesh and blood, working with people and all their
idiosyncrasies at a particular point in our geography on planet earth and then I can see
Craig and your work with all of these tentacles that surround the planet Earth and in
between the two of your scales is the phenomenon of the city itself. We were blessed with
Hazel Henderson last week and she was talking about her work as being a global
acupuncturist...

Bruce Sanguin: and Craig Hamilton: Umm. Uh hum. (agreement)
Beth Sanders: And noticing the places where just the right amount of pressure was
needed to compel something in the system she was working with for example, to change.
But with your respective faith and spiritual local and global (so, from below and above)
perspectives, looking in and on the city as a phenomenon, that's a habitat that we create
for ourselves, where do you see the points and places where faith and spirituality can
serve us really well right now in this time? I'm going to start with you Craig.
Craig Hamilton: Ok, I'm going to start with I don't really know. (laughter) but I'll try to
find a way into this one too somehow. Let me see. Well, I mean I have to say I was really
intrigued and I was thinking along a similar line as to what Bruce shared a few minutes
ago, when he started to talk about bringing the city councilors together and get them to
start to sense into the holon of the city or, a shift in identity to some degree because I was
kind of sensing that too.
We can find all kinds of ways that spiritual people, spirituality minded people can serve
the city. We can list hundreds of kinds of unique acts that could be undertaken to attempt
to elevate the consciousness of the city but on kind of a bigger level I was thinking. To look
at this through a spiritual lens, we are - when we're talking about spirituality, to some
degree - we're always talking about a shift in identity when I start to awaken to the reality
that I'm not just this local self, this story in my mind about this person who was born at a
certain time, who has this body and has this life experience and has these goals and
ambitions and that local ego, that local self consciousness but we are awakening to our
larger identities even, maybe our identity as the evolutionary impulse, maybe our identity
as the infinite source of pure being? But also these larger we spaces that we're a part of,
can both be a bridge to the more universal dimensions of who we are but can also be a
way to really ground that and make that real.
And that's why that, as we are pondering this notion of a more enlightened city or how
could we bring, you know, the interiority of the city to life or how can we get the city to
awaken to its inner life like you were describing earlier, I was thinking, what would be
the ways we could experiment with getting citizens of a city of any scale to start to let their
identity expand to be the whole city? What would be the thought experiment or the
spiritual experiment that got (and maybe it would be done within congregations, and may
be it would be done at council meetings and maybe it would be done as a wild kind of viral
city-wide initiative), of, hey let's all see what happens if we start to relate to this whole city
as yourself?
If I start to see the city as myself and therefore all of the citizens as parts of me, and
everything we are doing as a collective as me, not as something I am just a part of but as
me, as myself. And then how do I then what responses come forth from me - when I do
that and get people sharing about that? Because I can tell you, I haven't really run that
experiment on a city level myself but whenever somebody does that, their identity shifts
and then their response to life shifts and your values shift and what motivates you begins
to shift.

It all follows that awakening to a larger identity - and I think a city is a pretty big one
(laughter) to play with! And I'm sure all kinds of care would start to flow from that, that
people might not normally experience but suddenly the heart opens up and you look at all
these people you're sharing your life with in whatever way, in this civic environment and
all these ways you want to start to take care of it and elevate it and take more
responsibility even at as a citizen voter, and mover in the political sphere to lobby your
politicians to (laughter) you know, act in deeper alignment with this impulse. So, you
know, I just sense, that's what was sparking in me as this possibility to use the city as a
context to expand identity so that the larger circles of care could begin to flow and all the
beautiful things come from that.
Beth Sanders: That's beautiful. Thank-you Craig. It's really striking me, the city is a social
holon and so of course it's full of all the messy dynamics that Bruce was referring to
earlier about the local flesh and blood and how tricky that is. Bruce, when you think about
some sort of experiment or a way to tap into that collective identity that's full of so many
different centers of gravity, what have you learned in your work with congregations about
how to be effective acupuncturists and be fully supportive of what's happening?
Bruce Sanguin: Yeah, I'm so caught up in Craig's magnificent experiment there. That
would be great.
Beth Sanders: I have a hunch you might have performed such experiments at the scale of
congregations.
Bruce Sanguin: Yeah. I mean I have done things with boards and gatherings of people
who I, who get into this business of being the angel over-spirit of the church and speaking
out of that. Of course what happens is then, is that the first thing to emerge is people's
pain body begins to emerge. It's like, you know, I'm this angel or this corporate holon
begins to speak and of course that, you know, I'm lonely. You say we are a community but
nobody knows me. You say we are a community but five years ago we fired this person
who was so close to me and my heart is still broken and I can't move on until we deal with
that. Or you get other people and course people to some extent, it's their own
personalities and who they are that will inform the dialogue, but that other people will
speak out of a great potential of the community and the best of what's happening.
But my sense is that the first thing to emerge when you do this gestalt work is that, it's like
doing dream work, you learn to identify with every symbol of the dream and speak as
those dream symbols. My sense is that in getting tied back in with this theme of suffering
the first thing that is likely to emerge there is the voice, the voice of suffering is interesting,
where I as the city hurts.
Tat's certainly what happens at congregations at a local level. That's the first voice. And if
you don't deal with that, nothing else can happen. I have a colleague who does shadow
work with congregations. He's actually sort of a leading edge transformational guy. And
one of the things that his research showed, he did five years of research, at the end of
which, and he did the shadow work at the end and he realized he would have done that
first because after four or five years, any element of the shadow or of the suffering that
didn't get dealt with, blocked the whole process, blocked the creative advance of the
organization. So it would be interesting to pull together city blocks or city councilors or
you know, organizations within the city. Get them to feel into the pain of the city, the
loneliness of the city or whatever it is, or the shadow side first and then see if that doesn't
free up this evolutionary impulse you know?
Craig Hamiltn: And arguably, Bruce that's where the creative, the genuinely evolutionary
creative responses to what that city needs would come from. From facing into the
shadows, facing into the pain, facing into the things that really are not working that are
not being addressed, where there's a deep lack of alignment between the city's sort of
stated values and intentions and how life is actually showing up for the citizens and
getting right down into the depth of all that, but maybe from this larger place, from this
place of expanding identity and stepping into this larger sense of self. You know I think it
is in that place where the evolutionary impulse comes surging forth with responses that
actually can (laughter) make a difference, because they're in touch with reality, not
someone's vision (laughter) for reality.
Bruce Sanguin: And certainly that's at the heart of the Christian faith, is this image of the
suffering of Christ and somehow the new creation is born out of that. To deeply attend to
that suffering is to facilitate the emergence of the New Jerusalem. So those progressive
Christian communities that want to get rid of the cross, I never really totally understand
that. I understand some of the frightening meanings that are associated with the cross,
which is not what I am talking about but, but in terms of that principle of face everything,
you know is the way out is the way through. I think it still works as a core metaphor.
Beth Sanders: I have a question for you both being the wise people that you are and
yesterday we had a wonderful conversation with Peter Merry and we were speaking
about the notion of hospicing. When in a system for example, at whatever scale there is a
point where something wants to, or has or needs to die and the notion of hospicing being
recognizing that it needs to go or it has gone or some sort of ritual to honour that and fully
hospice something out so that something new can come. It's also making me think that
when we look at any system or city, from the perspective of resilience that things do need
to break down before they can break through. So from both of you and your respective
work, and it really doesn't have anything to do with the city per say, but when and where
do you sense it's time to let something go, so let the suffering stop and not hang on and
hang on and hang on, and let it go so something new can come about.
Craig Hamilton: Can you just maybe say that again, in a slightly different way? I just
trying to get a sense of what context you are speaking in about when you're saying , when
do you let this suffering go and or, I didn't quite get what you were juxtaposing...
Beth Sanders: Ok, I will rephrase it from the perspective of myself as individual. There
are times when I can notice in myself that I am suffering and I choose to hang on to the
suffering. And I choose to put an awful lot of attention to that suffering and I am not
hospicing myself and honoring and recognizing the fact that something is lost, so grief is in
here I suppose a bit. Something is lost but there is a point in time when I find a point
where I naturally need to let it go and then when I do something new comes. But there is a
dynamic in there about recognizing that things, like a breakthrough is what we need in
order to have, sorry - a breakdown is what we need before a breakthrough comes and
what's the balance in there between hospicing myself well as opposed to not hospicing
myself well and just you know, just dredging and re-dredging and staying in that pain
body for as long as possible?
Craig Hamilton: OK. I think I got it. Well I have at least a perspective on it or a couple of
ones I'll try to share briefly so Bruce can comment as well. So, one is that, I need to
challenge the notion that we need to have a breakdown before we can have a
breakthrough. I think, I guess I would say you know, that most of the time unfortunately
that's the case (laughter) but I don't think it's actually built into the system. I think that
there's a the reason for that is that most of us are, and this applies on an individual level
and it applies on a collective level, most of us are embedded in the status quo of the way
things are, we're invested in the way we've been doing things because it serves us on
some level even if it's 90 percent pathology, we're getting something out of it or wouldn't
be continuing and so generally, you know there's a lot of investment in the way things are,
even if they aren't very good on most levels and so it takes some kind of calamity or
breakdown as you were saying to wake us up to what a mess things are and so we will
finally let go and there will be enough pain to kick us into a new year. That is one of the
ways evolution proceeds.
But I do want to at least voice, to the degree we begin to align with this evolutionary
impulse as our fundamental orienting self, as our fundamental way of being in the world,
and what we are really deeply aligned with, to that degree it's less and less true that we
need a breakdown to have a breakthrough because we are moving with the spirit of
change. We're actively facing all the little things that aren't really quite working and we're
evolving them and leaning into them and we're now a force of catalytic positive change
without waiting for the breakdowns to come, and so we finally have fewer and fewer
breakdowns. You know, ideally if this really working in one's personal life, there aren't
breakdowns because you're moving quickly through things and as things need to get faced
and dealt with they're being dealt with they're not being avoided, denied, swept under the
rug (laughter) etc. They are all being surfaced as its coming up.
That possibility is also there for collectives but, it's a very high level of practice because for
a collective to be facing its shadows and bringing everything into the light, dealing with
the things that aren't working at the moment they are not working instead of waiting for
it all to breakdown and have kind of a big meltdown between us or something that
involves a very big commitment from everyone involved to be operating at a very different
level than human beings have ever really operated at. It's a high level of collective
spiritual practice if you will, to be facing everything, avoiding nothing, leaning into the
growth edges that take us out of our comfort zones, day after day, consistently. It's a new
way of living. It's a way of living that I'm teaching in all my courses and that I'm
advocating one hundred percent but I do want to acknowledge when you start to have a
conversation like that in relation to something like a city or a just random collective of
people, it's, you know you probably are going to have to unfortunately wait for all the
breakdowns to show everybody -hey, it's not working. Let's all acknowledge it. We just
had, this you know, things fell apart. OK well, now we can change. Now there's receptivity.
I at least wanted to bring that in by way of context. I'll pause there and let Bruce come in
on some other perspective.
Bruce Hamilton: Well, no I love that Craig. I really do because one of the things that I
think needs to breakdown is a pervasive, post-modern pessimism that I experience where
we are highly committed to the story of "ain't we awful"? And ain't it awful. And aren't
those people terrible and it's almost like in this post-modernist meme, while there are
wonderful things about it in terms of you know, the empathic meme, great sensitivity,
compassion etc. But there's a story out there that we're holding on for dear life. One
person phrased it; he said we've all turned into apocoholics. We're addicted to the
apocalyptic scenario. And I'd like to see us let go of that and one of the things that
emerges, within this evolutionary world view is, a deep optimism about the universe, an
awareness that the creativity which brought about the universe and is evolving in, through
and as us is not going anywhere.
Craig Hamilton: Right.
Bruce Sanguin: It's not going to disappear. I mean it might not be able to use us in our
pessimism, but there's a kind of eternal, irrepressible nature to that creativity that if we do
lean into it, it eventuates in an optimism and a deep, a natural hope.
Craig Hamilton: Yeah!
Bruce Sanguin: It's not a hope that something's going to happen in the future. I hope it
gets better it's like why can't we lean into the possibility that what the universe has been
doing for 13.7 billion years is going to still be happening, with or without us so why not
show up in the presence of that?
Beth Sanders: So Bruce, you have so beautifully evoked what has emerged as the mantra
for this whole conference and it emerged on day one, which is that of radical optimism.
Bruce Sanguin and Craig Hamilton: Hmmm. Yeah.
Beth Sanders: I want you to very quickly, because we have some limited time with Craig,
remind the audience that you can put questions in the participant dash board or hit one on
your phone key pad and we'll see that you have a question for Craig and in the meantime
there is one Craig that I want to put to you before...
Craig Hamilton: Oh man, can't I respond to what Bruce says? I want to just jump in!
Beth Sanders: (Laughter) Oh sure.
Craig Hamilton: Because the other thing I wanted to say about the optimism you were
talking about, it comes from actually recognizing the evolutionary context or the
evolutionary world view itself. And we realize we're part of an evolving process. You
know all you have to do is look around you and you realize, you know actually everything
that exists right now, you know, didn't use to be this way. So that every system that we
are currently frustrated with or every pattern in society that we're currently frustrated
with is a pattern that came into being over time and didn't use to be there and it's of
course going to continue to change! No matter what! Everything is always changing and
all the pessimism comes from some kind of bizarre out of touch belief that some, certain
things can't change. But it's like- they're done in! One way or another, but of course how
they're going to change that's where our responsibility comes in. So well let's, let me take
responsibility as I can for making sure that things in a positive direction but don't for a
minute believe the illusion that something is static in this cosmos because nothing is.
Anyway- I just wanted to add that little dimension to it.
Bruce Hamilton: Yeah thanks Craig.
Beth: OK I want to put this question to Craig before you go cause we've got one in from
the audience which is a listener who is intrigued by you idea of a thought experiment and
the places where it could take place. Could you say more specifically how we could initiate
something like that? And the listener askes how do I set up the conditions for a successful
thought experiment?
Craig Sanguin: Well thank-you for the question. It's great for us to go, for us to lean a
little further into it because it was just kind of a fresh idea that was popping up for me in
the moment of this conversation so we can unpack it a little bit more.
But really, I think I mean even more than a thought experiment. I mean more of a social
experiment. Arguably if we look at it, it is an attempt for us as a certain group of people to
begin to try to shift our identity, to explore what it is when I change what I think of as
myself, what I relate to as myself. And in this case we are talking about a whole city so, I
guess it would depend on the scale of your city and you can imagine that it could be
something that would start with a small group of people who wanted to make this happen
and then maybe in networking with other like minded groups that might also be
interested in helping catalyze this new experiment; and you'd have to clarify the goals of it
and then and what you were sensing; your hypothesis for the outcome of the experiment
and what you think it might unleash in the city in terms of a larger care and sense of
responsibility and co-creativity; and then figure out how to get the media interested and
share the idea; and then galvanize it around a particular period of time I suppose. Where
you say hey for this week in time, let's all us citizens of the city start to engage this in our
microcosms and then also let's create forums where we can interact around it and then
maybe have some public event where there is panel discussions where you know people
are coming together and on stage and engaging it. Maybe, some of the local officials or
you know, well known individuals that people would want to listen to their perspectives
on it and I don't know.
I wish you were on the phone so we could all brain storm it together but I think it's the
kind of thing that would just require that level of creativity and opening it out and looking
at all the means of getting people engaged and then maybe coming up with some concrete
issues to then apply it to, then once we've done this extension of identity then let's turn
our attention to what we think. Well first let's use that collective intelligence to determine
what are three big issues that we're not facing that this group says we want to face into
and shift in our city and then let's use that collective spirit of awakened care, conscience
and creativity to lean into those issues and see what new solutions might emerge when we
all stand in this different place than we're used to standing and identify with our unity as a
civic body. So there it is, feed for your own experiment I guess.

Bruce Sanguin: if I can just jump in quickly with that Craig. I mean I know that you have
experience too in finding ways and means by which . It's not just a gathering of people
who speak as the city but really what they're doing is speaking as their small, local, egoic
selves and their ideological selves and representing their particular constituency and
where they're concerned about this or that and they just speak with the voice of that
ideology or that concern or rather find a process by which they can actually enter into the
spirit of the city and - you know what I mean?
Craig Hamilton: Yeah right.
Bruce Sanguin: These people sitting around sitting around in their local selves and
they're and they're identifying their local concerns and then calling it the spirit of the city.
I just wonder about how people could actually expand into a really download, quote
unquote channel the city spirit..
Craig Hamilton: Yeah. And interestingly I think you're looping it back to the kind of the
primary question that we started with today which is well maybe that's a place that what
we're calling the spiritual communities could help serve that process with real facilitation
and grounding and holding the space for that to go somewhere other than what you just
described it would naturally go, left to its own unenlightened devices, so you know, maybe
that would be the role of the awakening communities, to really lean in and be that.
Bruce Sanguin: Yeah. Nice.
Beth Sanders: That's beautiful. Well Craig, I'm going to honor that it is the top of the
hour and keep you honest on when you said you needed to depart. With that I just simply
want to say that this whole conference has been an experiment and each day we explore
and lean into and one of these intelligences.
One of the things we've learned along the way is that each of these intelligences like
today's inner intelligence thinking at the scale of the city as self, is one that is starting to
figure out what it is, so each of these intelligences are figuring out their identities and they
don't even yet know how they interact with each other so you left us Craig with a really
nice gem around what is the role for the awakening community. There's seeds being
planted everywhere. Our week one theme was around the planet of cities, so there's some
questions there for, as me, as I contemplate your work at the scale you do as how the
spiritual community can support a planet of cities.
Craig Hamilton: Hmm.
Beth Sanguin: So thank you so much Craig. And I want to make sure all the people know
not to go, because were just saying goodbye to Craig at the moment and I just want to
honour his departure.
Craig Hamilton: Well thank you very much; its been a pleasure spending time with all of
you, and what a rich conversation youre having. Beautiful work. Great to be a part of it.
Beth Sanders: Thank you for sharing an hour with us.
Craig Hamilton: Thanks. Bye everyone.
Bruce Sanguin: See ya, Craig.

Beth Sanders: Oh, Bruce, thats a whirlwind of a discussion there that culminates in trying
to identify or even see what seeds are growing in terms of the role for the spiritual and
faith communities in simply awakening of citizens.
Bruce Sanguin: I love that its beginning to look like some kind of or take on the
characteristics of some kind of concrete possibilities for spiritual communities,
communities of faith to ground people in their bigger identities and from that place, then,
of spiritual expansive identity begin to identify at the level of the city as holons. And out of
hearing that voice, and there is a transformation that happens when a voice rings with
authenticity, and then maybe allowing that to set up an agenda, for the top two or three
initiatives. Yeah.
Beth Sanders: What do you see the role of the awakening community?
Bruce Sanguin: Well we just talked about that. At the end of every service every Sunday
basically we gather together and we celebrate the Great Mystery that were involved with
and expressions of, and the whole last third of the service is like: Go out, and BE in your
workplaces, BE with your friends, BE in your social gatherings, out of, we would call it out
of this Christ-self, BE the heart and mind, BE the love and the wisdom of the Universe for
the world.
Now that youve introduced it, even in that commissioning people, Be the Heart and Be the
Wisdom of the Universe for the city. I mean its a scale thats manageable, very concrete.
So a big part of it is doing the work, having these local labs of transformation, communities
of faith, ongoing programming, sacred rituals where this work of deep transformation is
happening. Where people realize that that transformation is not just about themselves,
that in some kind of real sense its a transformation of the Kosmos itself, in, through, and
as them and how theyre showing up.
I am one of these people who believe that that does impact the field of consciousness. And
when you get a whole community of people who are consciously intending to be that for
the city, if they can hold that in their consciousness as a ministry, as a vocation, as a sacred
vocation, if they are vocationally aroused, to use Barbara Marx Hubbards phrase, be that
for the city, I believe it can make a difference.
Beth Sanders: Bruce, you have wonderfully framed what I think we are going to offer to
our listeners at the moment here for some small group discussions. Eric, please set us up
for that.

The simple question Bruce is evoking for us is: How are you the heart and mind and soul
of the city?
.
Eric Troth: Beth and Bruce have been sitting in listening to some of the conversations.
What do you hear thats lively in the spaces that youve been visiting?

Bruce Sanguin: Well I heard a lot of Heart Intelligence so I had a rich experience of the
folks. And you know we needed to keep drawing ourselves back to the exercise which was
BEING the heart and soul of the city and not talking about others so much as whats in our
hearts as the heart and soul of the city. The topic of humor came up, interestingly, in that
this larger Kosmic evolutionary identity creates a little more space to take ourselves less
seriously so that we also need to remember to bring humor to the task.
Beth Sanders: I listened to a group that was quite a bit different. The image I get after
having listened in is one of tentacles. Theres a city there, say a really big city like Boston
or New York and then there are tentacles outwards from that big city where there are
other large cities and then smaller cities and then really small or rural areas. And I was
sensing a grappling of, this question is about the city, but if you dont live in a city, or in
that big city, then what is that relationship? What is my contribution if Im not actually
living in it?
That is an interesting inquiry to sit in. I imagine even people who live in the city, and
Bruce you and Craig are examples of this where we just dont really quite think about
what we contribute to the city and its wellbeing and its identity, so if city-dwellers dont
really think of that then how would people living on the outlying edges or further of a city
even, contemplate their relationship with it. So it leaves me with more inquiry which is a
nice place to be.
Before we close, there was one lingering question that did come in from the audience.
Here is the question: We know that civilizations have collapsed for thousands of years.
And the difference today is that we are faced with the possibility of global civilization
collapse, and this one is dragging the biosphere down with us. What do you suggest as
some best strategies or approaches for simultaneously fully acknowledging the reality and
urgency of our current collective situation while at the same time staying radically
optimistic in creating a new future from an inspired future rather than a fearful emotional
state?
Bruce Sanguin: Wow, thats the challenge, isnt it Beth!? To hold both simultaneously. The
Buddhist practice of opening your heart in compassion for the suffering as it is, those
arent opposite sides. As we open our hearts to reality, if we do that from the perspective
of our local selves, our smaller egoic selves, well begin to feel incredibly threatened and
insecure and all our biochemistry is going to be triggered into fear or flight or freeze. So
the only way to enter into this exercise is a deep compassion for the reality of the suffering
and the fact that we are now a macro-phase power that is impacting the entire biosphere,
is to do it from the perspective of this larger Identity. Otherwise, its too much; its simply
too frightening; we cant contain it.
But our Kosmic identity, our Kosmic self or what I would call our Christ-self, where we are
the personalized presence of this evolutionary impulse, the deep-time evolutionary
impulse, we can handle that. Because there is a power and a resilience in knowing yourself
to be showing up as the creativity of the big bang reconfigured 13.7 billion years later, that
can handle anything. It can handle a super-nova. It can handle five previous extinctions.
Its not going anywhere, and to the extent that we can tap into that and identify with it we
can deal with reality AND trust that the same creativity that brought forth this universe
and is evolving in, through, and as us is going to continue to do its work, and why not start
now?
Beth Sanders: What a wonderful way to end today, Bruce. Our creativity is fully in service
to us.
Bruce Sanguin: Nice.
Beth Sanders: This is kind of cool. Just as were ending. I had a candle on my desk while
we were doing this and it just went out. Its time to close.
Bruce Sanguin: Natural ending.
Beth Sanders: I want to close as we did this morning, with a poem that emerged right in
the middle of the session this morning. I was going to read this before we started, Bruce,
with you and Craig and I got all caught up in the moment so Im just going to use it to close
our session today. So these are some of the words of Terry Patten this morning as we were
exploring Inner Intelligence.
I am going to read this however before I do go thank you very much for joining us, Bruce,
this was a wonderful way to spend some time with you near the end of our conference.
Bruce Sanguin: It was an honour, Beth, and a privilege, and great to connect with you and
Craig.
Beth Sanders: Thank you, so these are some of Terry Pattens words from this morning:
Inquiry always asks for more
aliveness weve never been before
something new is always
coming into being
patterns carry forward
creativity, novelty
notice, trust, deepen
choose
show up
explicitly
uncomfortable
in silence
simple and complex
amplifying
evolutionary power
raw, whole
honour
well

2.
Inquiry is figuring us out
radically optimistic
unifying and making whole
the scale of the city
of peace
fully sacred
evolutionary impulse
itself
suffering
provocations to new intelligence
what happens is in our hands,
is flesh and blood
awakening, expanding
citizens identity
whole
city
deeply optimistic
that we can handle anything

3.
The way we connect will bring
intelligence
spiritual weightlifting
discerning practices
welcome
the golden shadow
welcome
the light of Self
step in
to the gift of suffering
as an optimist
by choice

by Beth Sanders


1
Source
Speakers: Cindy Wigglesworth, Carissa Wieler
Host: Beth Sanders

Cindy Wigglesworth founded her own company, Deep Change, in 2000,
where she is currently serving as President. She created, validated, and
researched the first skills based Spiritual Intelligence Assessment, which
allows people to develop spiritual intelligence skills by making a connection
to beliefs and practices for each individual without using the language of
religion. The assessment is both faith friendly and faith neutral, and can be
used for both business and personal use. Spiritual intelligence is the ability
to behave with wisdom and compassion, while maintaining inner and outer peace,
regardless of the situation (Google Profiles). Cindy worked in human resource
management at ExxonMobil. She is on the Working Council for the Tyson Center for Faith
and Spirituality in the Workplace and former chair of the International Spirit at Work
Awards Selection Committee. She is a founding member of Spirit in Business and has
appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Cindy is and executive coach and public speaker.

Carissa Wieler, Acting Executive Director of the Integral Ecology Center,
located in Vancouver, Canada, sees that integral ecology holds many
strands of nature awareness and intelligence to which she has been called
from an early age. She has explored nature mysticism (through embodied
practices and field technology), nature interiority (work with nature
beings), natural sciences (biology, environmental science) and the social
dimensions of working with the environment (natural resources
management). She has also delved into understanding human nature through Integral
Psychology (MA), holding the question of how to bridge psychology and ecology. To
integral ecology, Carissa brings experience working with non-profit sustainability think
tanks, an urban planning consultancy, research with the Pembina Institute for
Appropriate Development, and sustainability indicators with the International Institute
for Sustainable Development. Carissa is a long time volunteer in the Integral community,
with significant responsibilities in coordinating 30 volunteers at Integral Theory
Conferences.
Beth Sanders: It is my pleasure today to introduce this session - if we want a new future
for the city then we need a new operating system for it. This week we are focusing on
amplifying our intelligences, the evolutionary power source. This particular session is
focusing on leading practitioners who are turning this Inner Intelligence into actionable
outcomes. Its my pleasure today to introduce you today to Cindy Wigglesworth and
Carissa Wieler, they are both practitioners of Inner Intelligence that we define as the I
space of each citizen, the seat of intentional consciousness, intention, interior experience
and intelligences or lines of development. Both of these women are wonderful
practitioners and I am looking forward so much to hear what happens during this
interview. Cindy is an executive coach and public speaker, whose new book Q21, the 21
skills of spiritual intelligence, was published Oct 9th, 2012. Welcome to the conference
Cindy.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Thank you it is a pleasure to be here.
Beth Sanders: It is wonderful to have you. I will introduce our second participant on our
interview who is Carissa Wieler acting executive director of the integral ecology centre
located in Vancouver, BC. Carissa, I am looking forward to hearing your take on cities and
how you find your place in them, welcome to the Integral City Conference.
Carissa Wieler: Thank you so much Beth, its a delight to be here
Beth Sanders: We are going to have a fun 90 minutes. I am going to start with you Carissa
with this question; In the dynamics of the city and the busy, hurly place that it is, how do
you show up and be self aware, present and mindful?
Carissa Wieler: I feel like there are definitely many layers to this question in terms of
showing up on the breath, showing up from the heart, connecting to perhaps qualities of
people that I am seeing, connecting on a deeper level. For me the city is about people and
infrastructure, there are many things we could say what the city is, and so the way we
connect to the city on those many levels will bring out different aspects of our
intelligences. I feel there is a draw to talk about the breath, the going from the heart, sense
of compassion, connecting through the mind, lets say connecting to the, noticing where I
might be projecting, for example in the city, or how I am organizing my thoughts in the city,
where my judgments are for example. I find with this question I could go one way which is
going to the stillness, but what is intriguing me is to look at the shadow aspect of where I
dont want to go with my awareness. Or how do I interact with places in the city that I
might consider shadow places. For example, in Vancouver we have the Vancouver East
Side and one of my reflections has been; how do I show up when I am there? Am I seeing
the homeless people and the people who are out and who are interacting with each other
and, how am I seeing them and what am I doing in myself when I am interacting in those
tighter spots? One of the, I would say more spiritual, perceptions I have been thinking
about is how those places hold an energy for the city as a whole. So rather than just seeing
it from the perspective of individuals living in the East Side and having these socio-
economic and health barriers, seeing how there is a larger story at play and interacting
from that level kind of opens the field a bit so I can connect to a collective consciousness of
the city and then what is, or who am I when I show up to that, who am I when I enter that.
Beth Sanders: What is that larger story of the city Carissa?
Carissa Wieler: There is, I would definitely say there is a field in each city and each city
actually has its own vibration to me and when we encounter them and encounter the
different frequencies of a city and then all the different aspects that make it up feels like
there is possibly calling, people feeling a call to be in the city or to bring their calling to the
city and that sense of a hum or multiple hums, multiple streams.
Beth Sanders: Cindy as you experience the city how do you show up, be present and
mindful?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Well I have a particular challenge in that I am massively
introverted on the Myers-Briggs scale so my focus is usually interior on my ideas and
whatever is going on in my own brain so I have learned over many years of my life that
there is an effort involved in turning my attention outward to focus on the exteriors that I
might not normally see. Attending to details on the Myers-Briggs N, Intuitive style, so I
dont tend to pay attention to detail and it can a form of not being loving, to not be
attending to the exterior environment and, not be attending to the details of the
environment around you so one of my practices is to go against my natural style and to
just attend, to pay attention, to relax. It can feel overwhelming to an introverted nervous
system so I just have to breathe and reassure my ego nothing bad has happening that I am
just observing and seeing what is going on and it is interesting what I can see when I
remember to do that and I realize how profoundly isolated my life is even in the fourth
largest city in the United States because my patterns take me to the same stores
repeatedly and, have me on the same roads repeatedly and, it takes a deviation from the
pattern to notice the parts of the city that I am not normally in and it is almost like I could
be on Trip Advisor. What would the coolest thing to see in this part of the city because I
have never been here before. So to have more of an explorers mind and being able to calm
my nervousness that is saying I dont know this part of town, is it safe, which can be a
legitimate concern but usually it is over blown.
Beth Sanders: What practices do you have to make that all work for you?
Cindy Wigglesworth: The main practice for me I call spiritual weightlifting which is
calming my ego down and shifting to my higher self and that basically involves stopping
whatever my normal reactive thought pattern is, long slow deep belly breaths, tuning in
intentionally the voice of higher self rather than the ego which is the first thing that shows
up and then observing. Observing deeply; what is going on here? Watching for the
patterned meaning making responses that I tend to have which come from my perspective
as a white female in her 50s who has had these life experiences and try not to make that
interpretation and to hold open that there are 100 other interpretations possible and let
those arise on their own. So that total practice is part of what I call spiritual weightlifting.
Beth Sanders: Now is that one of the 21 skills of spiritual intelligence
Cindy Wigglesworth: Its actually very related to quite a few of the 21 skills but it is what I
call my nine step process for spiritual weightlifting and when people say what is your
spiritual practice my primary practice is that nine step process, I wrote it for myself
because in many ways I am my own most difficult student so, I needed steps to get
through.
Beth Sanders: Are there other nifty things like Spiritual Weightlifting that you have been
exploring that apply to how you make your way through the city?
Cindy Wigglesworth: The skill that is most relevant to our conversation today is the
ability to take the perspective of others, skill seven of the 21, the ability to see the
worldview of others and I never can really see my own world view until I am confronted
with a different world view and the example I often give is simple assumptions like what is
appropriate or polite around social distance, nose to nose, how far should you stand apart
at a cocktail party, for example. For the most part in the United States its about 18 inches
or one arms length. People in Texas, where I live, joke that it has to be three feet because
everything needs to be bigger in Texas. But, that is not true in the Asian and Hispanic
communities here so the social distance will be closer in most of the ethnic communities
that are not Caucasian here and so here I am a white person used to a large social distance
going to an event where smaller social distances may be the norm. Can I understand that
is not a threat? Because the habituated ego reaction is to see someone invading my space
and that is just a simple illustration of hundreds and thousands of ways in which different
perspectives that inhabit the city can take each other and misunderstand each other based
on cues.
I dont know if you know but Houston is the most diverse city in the United States in the
respect that nobody has a majority, the whites are not a majority, blacks are not a majority,
Asians are not a majority, Hispanics are not a majority but everybody is in the double
digits so nobody is really, really small in terms of representation and we have got one of
the largest Islamic community in the United States, two enormous Hindu temples, people
think of Houston and Texas as being backwoods but Houston is an enormous city with a
huge amount of diversity and it works really well, so something is interesting here about
this city and I am not quite sure what makes it work so well, but it does.
Beth Sanders: So, whats going on there that is activates a city spirit that is so full of
diversity?
Cindy Wigglesworth: I am not sure I can answer the question. Texans have an
independent spirit and a real can-do attitude above all, I have heard a mayor say this, I
believe our current mayor who is lesbian, so that just shatters another Texas
representation right there. I think she was the one who said what I think we value about
people here is what they bring to the party, what skills do you have and how hard are you
working and what is the nature of your character and then we will decide whether or not
we like you. So to the degree that is true, that is part of what makes it work here.
Beth Sanders: That is a wonderful form of intelligence to take it in and simplify it and
name it and just make it clear and comfortable for people to live into that, thats wonderful.
Carissa, when you look at the city and how you make your way through it, what always
strikes me as fascinating about cities is we are in them together and we choose to be in
them together so there is a necessary relationship between self and other. What
understanding do you gain out of your relationship between yourself and others in the
city?
Carissa Wieler: I was thinking about this, something I have been thinking about that I am
just going to come at that in a slightly sideways way is how our local geographies can, in
some ways, reveal or reflect something about the individual and collective potentials in
the city. One of my favorite examples is the natural geographies in a couple of the cities I
have lived in. In one of the cities I have lived in, Calgary, [Alberta, Canada], the Bow River
flows through the city. It is a quick moving river, quite a fast river and it comes from the
mountains and I have always noticed the big energy of the city is kind of a fast paced
energy, even when talking with people the language and the speed of how people talk
there is quickness to it I find. There is a boom or bust energy there as well and it feels
come in and out easily of that city. In another city I have lived in, Winnipeg[Manitoba,
Canada], there are two rivers that flow into the city and they are both slow flowing rivers,
slower flowing. Winnipeg in some ways has that energy to, there is a pacing of things and
its not to say that it isnt sometimes fast but there is a pacing and I noticed people didnt
talk as quickly when they are there and kind of a relaxed feeling. I am in Vancouver now
and have only been here a little while, so living by the ocean is a new thing for me and I
have been watching I am curious about how living by the ocean might influence how
people, not so much influence, but be a kind of mirror. So that is a small, little theory I
have been carrying around that our collective habits and our geographies might connect
with each other.
From there I would say what comes to my heart is just that in sharing the city with others
there is a few different states that I can choose to be in. I am thinking now of living in
Lisbon in Portugal and feeling how different it was to be staying in apartment buildings
there. You are sharing much more tightly the space with people than some of the places I
have been in Western Canada. And how, in that sharing that space, there is not necessarily
community, but a kind of an inter-subjective knowing about the space that I felt differently
here. I knew who worked at the local markets much better than I might know here. Just
noticing how there are these different states.
I can go on a train here and be in my own world and be in the introverted place that I
might naturally be in and be blocking people out and just reading or doing whatever I am
doing, or even energetically having a bit of a boundary around that. Or, I can be looking at
people and just noticing, looking at them, not people watching so much, I guess that would
be another level, but really just noticing the qualities in them that I might imagine they
would have, positive qualities, their beauty. And just start relating with people who I
would have been considered strangers before and start relating with them as someone
who is in my inter-subjective space. And, maybe we share eye contact or maybe we dont,
it doesnt really matter at that point.
Then I would say there is another state that I sometimes go in where I actually feel I go in
to a prayer state on the train where I am just bored and decide to pray. And I think, why
dont I just do some of my prayer practices of breathing compassion? Ive had this
experience a couple of times where everyone on the train went away and I was just empty
on this train, just breathing and there are some movies like that where people are doing
golf, the Legend of Bagger Vance he is playing and looking at the field and everyone in the
crowd disappears and it was kind of like that being on the train and feeling the emptiness
of the train. Then coming back in and feeling the coming back into connecting with people
after that and feeling there was the possibility of a soul level connection and making eye
contact and very softly noticing who I am connecting with at that moment and feeling like
there is a lot more potential for connection in these spaces that I think is very
underutilized.
Beth Sanders I would imagine it is quite underutilized but then again, who knows?
Carissa Wieler: That is true. I was just going to say one last little bit is Ive been sitting
with this thing of responding with people who are asking for money. When I get out of the
train and see people on the road asking for money and its the same person every time.
And really noticing what does that brings up for me and noticing the dialogue that comes
up for me rather than going into judgment or going into I should or going into I am
walking completely by and noticing what the inner work is there for me. And noticing
when I choose to give him something and when I dont. I think doing some self reflection is
a really great way of understanding the self/other relationships in the city, noticing the
projections, doing some reflection and then seeing how that translates into action, or not.
Being a curious investigator of those subtle spaces.
Beth Sanders: Are you comfortable sharing with us the different conversations you have
with your inner with the fellow who is asking for money?
Carissa Wieler: Sure there is sometimes where I just feel the antibodies, the resistance. It
is like there is almost this feeling of does he deserve my money or not, if I give him
something what will he do with it? What has he done before? Why is he in this position?
This part feels like more of a critical judgment, and then there are other times where I will
see him and I will be in another place of you know it doesnt matter, its just about love, its
just about compassion and if I feel it in the truth of my heart then I can give it to him as a
gift and it is a gift to more than him if that is my intention. A gift to life, a gift to the Beloved,
its like a gift, sorry for anyone who doesnt like that word, but its like a gift to something
more. Then the next time after that I noticed the feeling of oh I should give him something
because I did last time and last time [laughter] I was in the higher state so this time
shouldnt I give him something? But it isnt in my heart this time so then I would just offer
him a blessing and maybe that is ok to and now I can carry a change purse around and
give him money every time but then it becomes a religion in a way then I am not really
connecting with my why.
Beth Sanders: That is always a fascinating dance in the city between people. That is a
particular one that occurs in every city. Cindy, how do we grow our leadership in heart,
mind and soul?
Cindy Wigglesworth: You are speaking to my soap box now. I would say, leadership
development for me over the years of doing coaching and consulting I have boiled it down
to four intelligence approach. We need to take care of our bodies because our bodies are
foundational to our other intelligences, so if I dont manage my blood sugar, if I dont get
enough sleep Im not going to have very good emotional intelligence, my cognitive
functions will be impaired and my SQ or spiritual intelligence is not really going to be
optimal.
...But beyond that we are in a culture here in the U.S. I can speak for sure, and I'm guessing
Canada is not too dissimilar, where IQ is very heavily valued but EQ may or may not be
taught in the school systems. So emotional intelligence or good interpersonal skills
including the ability to properly anticipate and recognize the emotions of other people, I
think is crucial for the kind of cities, meshworks that we're hoping to create over time. If
we have no empathy with each other I don't know how a holon even works as a holon.
Beth Sanders: Um Hum
Cindy Wigglesworth: And then the spiritual intelligence add-on is like the EQ on steroids.
You move from being smart and having empathy to being wise and having compassion.
And that is a far more functional approach. One piece of research I did with Suzanne
Cooke-Greuter was comparing scores on my assessment to scores on her maturity
assessment profile and the result came back that it was only one per cent probability that
the correlation was an accident. It appears very likely that in order to get to second tier as
we think about it developmentally, you must have SQ. That SQ is helpful at earlier stages
of development but without SQ you're really not able to enter into embodiment at second
tier. So if what we're hoping for is Integral cities, I think the leadership at least needs to
embody all four of those intelligences.
Beth Sanders: Can you re-cap those four intelligences again please?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Physical or PQ for short, IQ, which is the traditional stuff we teach
in school, EQ, emotional intelligence, and SQ, spiritual intelligence.
Beth Sauders: So what's your elevator speech definition of spiritual intelligence Cindy?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Well, the official definition is the ability to behave with wisdom
and compassion while maintaining inner and outer peace regardless of the situation. The
elevator speech about why should you care about this, the most common one I use is Do
you have drama in your workplace? At which point pretty much every manager rolls
their eyes. And I will say roughly what percentage of productivity do you think you are
losing in a day or week or year, to unnecessary drama at work? and the answer is
anywhere from 10 to 30 per cent. And I say, If you could get a little bit of that back, would
that be a good thing? And they say Oh my God- yeah! How do I do that? And so, less
ego, more higher self which is the essence of spiritual intelligence means less waste, less
drama, less suffering. So from a city perspective, it would be the same. You think of all the
sub-holons within a city that tend to conflict with each other. What if we had just a little
bit more EQ, just a little bit more SQ, and we could reduce the friction points? Wouldn't
that be a cool thing?
Beth Sanders: Absolutely, so what are your hot tips on how to do it Cindy?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Well, SQ is an inside job. It's not something you can impose on
someone. If there's no desire, it's like, don't bother. Move onto somebody who has the
desire to learn. And then hopefully, sometime in the natural life process will trigger the
desire in those who may not have it right now. But the desire, once awakened, then gets
refined and these 21 skills have been described from the novice level to the expert level so
by taking a look at the 21 skills, you can say okay which ones do you already have some
skill in, which ones do you not have skill in. Which ones are relevant to the problems of
your life conditions right now, whether it's your job or your family or your city, and then
from that analysis, say okay then we're going to work on skill such and such.
Pretty well a universal skill that everybody needs to work on is in the upper left quadrant
of my model which is the ability to distinguish the voice of the ego from the voice of the
higher self. Until we can understand that we've got more than one voice in there and
discern like when am I listening to which one and then engage with choice as to which one
is driving the car of my life, we really are not operating from spiritual intelligence. So one
of the simple metaphors is who is driving your life. Is your ego driving your life or is your
higher self driving your life? And then there are practices you can do, just to journal or to
reflect or meditate and notice and pay attention who's speaking right now. The big mind
practices are fantastic for this. Which voice is speaking? Is it the voice of fear and
contraction, and the small self or is it the more expansive higher self?
Beth Sanders: Wonderful. It seems so simple Cindy.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Well it is just hard to do (laughter).
Beth Sanders: I know. Yeah.
Cindy Wigglesworth: I have a very bossy ego so it is a constant spiritual workout.
(laughter)
Beth Sanders: Yeah. But what a wonderful way to name the work that needs to be done
in such a simple and clear way and for those who have embarked or are embarking on that
sort of a learning journey, you're making it a clear path, so that's wonderful.
Carissa, with what Cindy has just articulated what practices do you engage in that you see
Cindy has just described them in a way?
Carissa Wieler: I really appreciated Cindy's descriptions and they really resonate and I
am very much looking forward to the book Cindy.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Thank-you Carissa. You can buy it on October 9th you get a free
gift. (Laughter)
Carissa: [Laughter.] I think this practice - of what am I doing? And just being able to stop
throughout the day and have that inquiry. What am I doing right now? What am I
thinking? What part of me is showing up? That in and of itself is quite a deep practice in
my experience. It requires a kind of openness and self-love and self-understanding to
really be able to stop and not go too much, not go into the judgment part, like be on the
discerning side of the street rather than the judging side. So I'm in the city where I'm at
my job and working on stuff related to the city and I'm connecting in a very specific way
with what the city means to me, with my vision of the city. And to then enter into a
dialogue with another who might have a different vision for example, and be experiencing
conflict and how do I show up to that conflict let's say of different values and different
visions within the city? Am I just going to project out and say that well this is the vision
that we need to hold or am I going to say, what am I doing with this? How can I breathe
this in? How can I include what this person is saying? What is my conflict intelligence or
what is my peacemaking intelligence perhaps? That would resonate a lot with my
enneagram type. And to be able to hear the answer, this is what I'm really getting to, to be
able to hear the answer inside, and to take it somewhat lightly and you know, sense of
humor is really great and then to come back to the interaction and be willing to really
deeply listen to what the other person is saying and what their perspective is and have
that sense of empathy and really notice the qualities that they are bringing. The what am I
doing practice feels really important and seeing it as a practice.
Beth Sanders: Carissa, can you give us some examples of what you do?
Carissa Wieler: In the sense of what?
Beth Sanders: You ask yourself questions so, what am I doing with this? How can I
handle this? How am I handling what this person is saying or how can I weave it in to what
you're doing. What are you actually doing when you ask yourself these questions? If I was
a fly on the wall what would I see or would I see anything? (Laughter) If I was a fly in your
mind and your body and your soul what would I see?
Carissa Wieler: Yeah it's an inside job but inside, the coming back to the breath is a really
important one. So you might feel me just breathing in my belly and just coming back, I
might even put my hand on my belly and just having a very gentle in and out breath,
coming back to a place of inner relaxation, inner stillness. You might see me noticing
where in my body I'm feeling the tension and listening, so giving it voice. Maybe I would
tilt my head a little. (Laughter) You're listening to - What's going on inside? Do I have an
inner child that is really upset right now because she's not getting something she needs?
And so I might respond to her and say It's okay. You are loved. You're cared for. It's
okay. I'm here. I'm doing this. So really re-parenting the inner child is a big part of; The,
what are you doing? But we need to have the space too to even notice.
Like Cindy was saying we have these many voices inside of us and they are vying for
attention. So coming to the committee, the inner committee and saying okay so whose
showing up right now and who's really demanding attention inside and once what that
need is offered, so that also requires a bit of work. So what are my needs inside? What are
my emotional needs? What are my spiritual needs? How can I meet those needs so that
I'm not asking others outside of me to, in the workplace let's say; How do I meet them
myself? And having a morning practice is so great for that, journaling and reflecting and
meditating. And then, once those inner needs are met I would say what is my truth here in
this moment? What is my why? What's my motivation? Really connecting, more deeply
with the deeper motivation that I have. This requires going past the surface motivations
and feeling that there is a deeper calling that is emerging in me. So let's say my deeper
why is maybe around embodiment or peace or whatever. I am connecting with that and
breathing into that in my heart. And there's something that really shifts in my interactions
once I do that because I'm now coming from a place of greater empowerment and
embodiment. I'm not asking the other to meet my needs and I am able to kind of rest in
what is already present within me and then I feel like the possibility of creativity emerges.
I've been reading a book by Stephen Covey called The Third Way where he talks about this
concept of both people letting go, both people having a sense of what they want but then
letting go of what that looks like to find the third way. And the question is - are you
willing to let go of your past to getting what you want so that we can create something
new together that neither of us have thought of before. So I've been practicing with, if I
really slow it down, that's how I would say it in this moment, in practicing with getting to
that creative place. I believe things could potentially emerge. And all of that does require a
kind of pause the ability to stop in the moment and to pause and step back. And pausing
can be a second or it can be five days - taking that moment to dial things down a bit. And
listen on the inside. And of course that's only one aspect of listening. There's also the
interpersonal relationships and noticing what's happening in the systems but seeing as
we're talking about the inner, that's the dialing down on the inner.
Beth Sanders: Um hum. Well the inner is always in relation with so many other things
isn't it? Well Carissa, that is a beautiful illustration of how you go about doing your inner
work. Thank-you Carissa for being so personal and sharing with us.
Carissa Wieler: Thank-you. It's actually feels very grounding to articulate it. I don't
think I've ever articulated it before in that way.
Beth Sanders: Well thank-you, thank-you very much. Cindy I wondering if you can make
some connections to your twenty-one skills of spiritual intelligence and if there are some
that we haven't touched on yet, if Carissa just told the story of them.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Carissa you are doing such a beautiful heart centered embodiment.
I'm a Myers-Briggs thinker and I'm always in awe of people who do that because I have to
push myself to get there. So I would say, part of what I was feeling in even just Carissa's
voice is this skill 20 in the 21 skills about being a calming and healing presence in the
world. There is this beautiful phenomenon of limbic resonance where we don't entirely
understand how it operates but we can prove that it operates. It's that two human beings
within a certain physical distance of each other will start calibrating to each other in terms
of our pulse, our respiration, our blood pressure and our emotional states and it's
interesting how we do that. Some of it's like the boss in the room will have the most
influence on the limbic states of other people. Some emotions are more powerfully
transmitted than other emotions but it seems clear, that certain people when deeply
grounded in their higher self are able to bleed the anger out of a room. I think that's just a
brilliant skill and what I was feeling from Carissa, you know this is more an energetic thing
more than the words she was speaking, was this ability to be a calming and healing
presence. Authentically present to herself authentically present to the rest of us on this
call and that is a powerful skill for facilitating meshwork kinds of outcomes in any
environment.
Beth Sanders: Um hum.
Cindy Wigglesworth: So kudos Carissa. Thanks for modeling that.
Beth Sanders: Thanks Cindy for giving us language for that! Sorry Carissa you wanted to
jump in there.
Carissa Wieler: Oh yeah, I was just going to say, that, as I am receiving that, I just, I'm in
awe because I feel like much of my life has been about working with conflict. It just...and
part of it too feels like we're, whatever it is we are digesting in our life or working through,
we bring out that quality, the quality that we need right, in our spiritual intelligence and so
I was kind of chuckling to myself about that.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Well it sounds that you found a beautiful calling. You've got quite a
skill for bleeding the conflict out of the room hopefully.
Carissa Wieler: Mmmm. That will stay with me. Thank-you.
Cindy Wigglesworth: You're welcome.
Beth Sanders: Beautiful. Eric, I do see we have an audience member with her hand up.
Eric Troth: Yes, I see Diane has raised her hand. A couple of things coming in written
form as well but let's go to Diane right now.
Diane: Hi there Eric. I don't have a question so much as a comment and maybe both
Carissa and Cindy could comment more on it. Just the difference in style that you both are
bringing to the forum is valuable. For me, both of those ways of knowing, knowing myself,
trying to understand others, I use. And I think it is fantastic that you are both here, both
giving such quite different ways of seeing how to do this work and role modeling, like
Carissa was saying role modeling it yourself. I really really appreciate it. I don't know
how you could expand on that maybe but how to find what's the best for oneself maybe?
So, that's all. Thank you.
Beth Sanders: Thank-you Diane. Cindy I'll start with you and we do have some questions
coming in so we're going to have a nice conversation here. So, give me your reflections.
Cindy Wigglesworth: Yes, so thank you Diane for that feedback. I'm glad you're finding it
valuable. I am too. I think one of the humility pieces for me has been to learn what my
Myers-Briggs is and what it means and how that makes me tend to show up and in what
ways that can feel uncaring to people who are on the receiving end of it. Then to try to be
really careful to moderate my style, and also not negate my style. So it's a both ends here.
I need to know how to soften my style and I need to know what I am good at and bring my
gifts to the world and partner with people like Carissa who are holding the other pole for
me (laughter) because you know if the whole world was run by me, I always joke, that I'm
sort of a wanna be Vulcan and Star Trek is one of my favorite shows and movie series and
you know the Vulcan's are not the heroes of Star Trek. They overdo the logic and I've
taken that lesson to heart. I can overdo the logic. So I think it is really helpful to
remember there are all kinds of Myers-Briggs, all kinds of Enneagram styles, all kinds of
lines of intelligence that different people have strengths in and weaknesses in. We need
each other. The bottom line is thank God for the collective, because as individuals none of
us have all of what is needed.
Beth Sanders: Thanks Cindy. Carissa?
Carissa Wieler: Well I have a couple of thoughts. One of the beauties of integral theory is
that there is room for these very different ways of looking at the world. Whether it's the
inner and the outer ways we tend to orient more in the upper left or the inside of things or
more in the lower left, the relational side or more objective side, that Cindy is talking
about. One of the most valuable pieces, was when Integral Coaching Canada, which is a
group out of Ontario, I believe some people were speaking from there earlier on and they
gave permission to orient yourself in any of these quadrants and probably most people
orient to one or two of them primarily and being able to just have that self-acceptance of
going, okay, that is where I orient and then having a choice of expanding into the other
ones.
So for me, having objective perspectives are so helpful and to be hearing the systems. I
love learning about the systems because I tend not to orient to systems, or I'll create inner
systems but I tend to go through a different door. For me these are all different doors and
just the other piece that came up was one of the differences between, in my understanding
between complication and complexity, is that something is complicated when we have
many different pieces but they are not coherent and complexity is when we can integrate
the diversity and they become more elegant so we can smell the fragrance of each
different flower in the same space and the uniqueness becomes more apparent and also
increasing elegance. So and the third piece was around real, what I would suggest or
recommend is something around really increasing self trust. So trusting and trust and
acceptance of who you are and where you feel the most in yourself, what makes you happy,
and what you desire for yourself and the world and really connecting wherever that takes
you and allowing, finding ways to give that expression, however that takes you, knowing
that it will be your unique way, ultimately.
Beth Sanders: Thank you Carissa. I am going to snatch up one of these questions from
the audience and one of them here is How do women approach the hospicing of shadow?
Carissa, can I call on you?
Carissa Wieler: How do women approach the hospicing of shadow? Do you have a sense
of what that means Beth?
Beth Sanders: Well, I'll read into it a little bit. Given some of the other discussions we've
had is, shadow is there and we got into a little bit, I think yesterday, it's starting to get a bit
blurry for me, the notion when there are times when it is simply just time to let our
attachment to something die, or let something die or cease to exist, or grieve that it does
cease to exist. So if a shadow aspect of us or me is lingering, how do I recognize that it is
there and notice it and grieve it and then somehow very compassionately also let it go so
that something new can come.
Carissa Wieler: Oh it's so beautifully said. I almost feel like that's, that 's what I would
say. (Laughter). If you notice it, and you know we all have attachments and identities and
to really have the intention of letting die what needs to die and I feel that there's two big
keys in that, compassion and forgiveness. And the forgiveness isnt always of oneself, but
it's not always of the other, sometimes it's both but the two of them seem to go really
together around letting go. And sometimes I feel, we are letting go many more layers than
we think. In the shadow there are cultural aspects, there are ancestry aspects, there's
different fields we've been part of and to allow the difficult feelings. I think that is a really
big key. To compassionately allow the difficult feelings to come up and to move through
them and to allow, I think of theory U a little bit with grief. If we go from point A to point B
too quickly with grief we miss that place at the bottom of the U where we are in this open,
unknown space of what's next. So I feel a really important part of hospicing shadow is to
allow it to surface, allow the attachments to surface and then release and allow the grief
and the compassion and forgiveness for it to happen and then, also let there be an
unknown place. So that one can reorganize and make meaning in a new way, without
needing to fill that attachment again right away.
Beth Sanders : Cindy, do you have anything to add to that?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Yes Carissa, that was beautiful so I am going to start by saying, I
agree with every single thing you said. And I would like to add, kind of the other end, I'm
big into polarities, sort of the both ends. What's the other presenting we might want to
make here. And the other truths that might be simultaneously true, there is nothing that
needs to die. It is all okay. And the sense that our shadow, both our dark shadow, what
they call our dark shadow, the disowned pieces, includes the most common use of that, is
the stuff we don't like but what's also out there, is our golden shadow or the hero energy
or the bright light or the saint that we're not willing to be either. And the way I think
about this is, I need to eventually become a large enough container that I can hold
everything, all of it and it's all okay. The humility for me is to recognize that, there but for
the grace of God, go I in any terrorist that walks the planet. Like you know that rage
could be in me too and, I could potentially live into the golden shadow of so many people I
admire, The Dali Lama, Mother Theresa, Jesus. Could I step into some of the character
traits there. Maybe a dying but there's also a birthing that's going on here and being born
into this much more expanded sense of who we really are.
Beth Sanders: Can you walk us through a little bit more this idea of the golden shadow
Cindy?
Cindy Wigglesworth: Yes it comes out of Karl Jung's work and Ive been with a Jungian
therapist now for about 15 years and I've been interested in Jung since college. His idea
was that anything that was uncomfortable got placed in the shadow. If I am like most
people raised in a Judeo-Christian environment where there's sort of this guilt in the sense
of the fall and the sense of being separated from God. Then there's this inherent message
of unworthiness somewhere in my interior, myself sense that makes anyone who is saintly
different from me. It's actually one of the primary issues and debates going on in the more
progressive Christian churches these days is we have made Jesus divine, therefore we
can't be Jesus. And the real cutting edge I think, and the reason I have been attending the
church I attend is that they have been trying to work the golden shadow and say
everything that Jesus did, He was pointing to us to do. It's not because He was the great
exception that we remember Him. It's because He was the great example. And the
resistance that comes up to owning the potential divinity, and it's like that famous
quotation from Marion Williamson, It's not our darkness, but our light that frightens us.
But I think as we step forward into whatever is the next evolution for humanity we need
to step into our largest self and engaging with that light, that hero, that saint that is within
us, is as important as reclaiming and not disowning the fact that there but for the grace of
God, there go I where the terrorist walks. So I am the terrorist and I am the saint and I
am everything in between.
Beth Sanders: Thank you for that Cindy.
And everything in between that seems a powerful thought for me to draw our time
together to a close. And I just want to thank you both Cindy and Carissa - so much for
this very intimate dialogue about Evolutionary Inner Intelligence.

1

!"#$%&'%() +(,-$$%)-(.- /
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Speakeis: Naiilyn Bamilton anu Biett Thomas
Bost: Beth Sanueis
Septembei 27, 2u12

?3@ A73%$'( B7"%$,6( is a city evolutionist, activist, authoi,
anu ieseaichei. She is Founuei of Integial City Neshwoiks, Inc. anu
authoi of !"#$%&'( *+#,- ./0(1#+0"'&, !"#$((+%$"2$3 40& #5$ 617'" 6+/$.
Naiilyn woiks with cities, eco-iegions, communities of piactise anu
stuuents to uesign thiiving habitats foi the human hive. She engages
multiple stakeholueis to integiate spiiitual, social, economic,
enviionmental anu cultuial capitals that emeige new human capacity.
Naiilyn enables cities anu eco-iegions to co-cieate the conuitions foi cities to be as
iesilient foi humans as the beehive is foi bees. Seiving inteinationally, Naiilyn iswas
Chaitei Integial Institute Nembei; Founuei, Centei foi Buman Emeigence Canaua;
Chaitei }uioi ulobe Sustainable City Awaius; Chaitei Canauian Sustainability Piofessional.
Naiilyn is Faculty at Royal Roaus 0niveisity, 0niveisity of victoiia, anu lectuiei at
0niveisity of Biitish Columbia, Simon Fiasei 0niveisity, }FK 0niveisity, Califoinia
Institute of Integial Stuuies, Auizes uiauuate School, 0niveisity of 0slo anu the 0niveisity
of Wageningen.

C3-,, D<6"70 is the co-founuei of Stagen, a Texas-baseu oiganizational
consulting fiim that specializes in Integial Leaueiship. Be is the authoi
anu aichitect of the Stagen Leaueiship Acauemy's S2-week intensive
Integial Leaueiship Piogiam, now in its 1uth yeai. Biett is a 2u-yeai
veteian in the fielu of human peifoimance anu oiganizational
uevelopment having uesigneu anu facilitateu hunuieus of woikshops anu
coipoiate tiaining piogiams. Biett has loggeu ovei 1u,uuu houis
coaching CE0s. Be has publisheu woik on applieu integial theoiy anu has co-uesigneu anu
co-ueliveieu inteinational confeiences anu seminais on applieu integial theoiy. Biett
seiveu many yeais as the Nanaging Biiectoi of the Integial Institute Business anu
Leaueiship Centei anu on the Euitoiial Boaiu foi the }ouinal of Integial Theoiy anu
Piactice. Biett cuiiently seives on the boaius of both Integial Leaueiship Review anu
Integial Publisheis. Be is wiiting a book with Russ volckmann on Integial Leaueiship.

C-,< :7(=-30E Thank you both foi being heie, but also foi the massive contiibution
you've maue to the Integial City 2.u Confeience. This has been a big enueavoui, anu I
believe a significant enueavoui, foi how we look at cities, how we look at ouiselves anu
how we cieate the veiy habitat foi ouiselves with so many uiffeient skills that enable us
to thiive. Naiilyn, I'll put my fiist question to you, which is: What was calling you, anu
what weie the confluences that catalyzeu anu biought this confeience about at this time.
A73%$'( B7"%$,6(E The seeus of the confeience staiteu many yeais ago - a uecaue ago at
least. Ny own woik life has given me the piivilege to not only live anu woik aiounu the
woilu, but also to be woiking at uiffeient scales of human systems uevelopment. I staiteu
woiking anu tiaining leaueis in an IT sectoi of a laige inteinational oiganization, anu then
my caieei took me onwaiu to woik with teams, whole oiganizations, acioss sectois anu
the community. When I was uoing this, I staiteu to iealize at some point that many of the
patteins affecting human systems at uiffeient scales weie actually the same. So I became
veiy cuiious about how humans aie a system - a living system.
Then theie was a point in time wheie a still small voice saiu: look at the city. I wanteu to
see if I coulu pull all of these uiffeient scales of human systems togethei anu consiuei the
challenge of the city as the living system. Although I was a little appiehensive, because this
was not my foimal planning backgiounu oi expeiience oi acauemic backgiounu. I am not
an uiban plannei like you, Beth, but I ceitainly was able to think about the city in teims of
human systems, anu at some point oi anothei I also iealizeu that I coulu think about it
even in metaphoiical teims of a human hive.
The hive metaphoi became quite empoweiing foi me, because it is ieally out of the
sciences that allows us to think about the biological honeybee hives. It was inteiesting foi
me to uiscovei theie's an extiaoiuinaiy bouy of ieseaich about the hive. The honeybee as
a species is actually one hunuieu million yeais olu, anu they've manageu to populate the
eaith anu all of oui geogiaphies. So I wonueieu if the honeybees have anything to tell the
human species. Because when I went back anu lookeu at the tiee of life, the honeybees aie
the inveitebiates that aie consiueieu to be the most auvanceu foim of life on theii bianch
of the tiee of life; anu humans aie - I'm going to say, "supposeu to be" the most auvanceu
foim of the veitebiates.
I uo wonuei if oui species can leain anything fiom the species of the honeybees. Now
when I think about human species anu human systems in theii uiffeient pioposeu stages
of emeigence oi uevelopment - wheie uiffeient scientists believe that humans came into
existence. some uiaw a timeline that is as olu as one million yeais ago, anu otheis say
that oui species is as iecent as Su,uuu to 1uu,uuu yeais olu. Whatevei the stait uate, in
evolutionaiy teims, we aie a veiy, veiy iecent emeigence, when you compaie eithei
1 million oi Su,uuu yeais to 1uu million yeais of the honeybee.
I thought: the bees might have figuieu out a few things that might apply to human systems.
So I continue to think about that question anu caiiy it into even some ieally piovocative
questions like: what is the human equivalent of how the bees piouuce 4u pounus of honey
a yeai to suppoit theii hive. Can humans uo as goou a job at sustainability as the
honeybees, who not only sustain theii hive, but they also sustain theii eco-iegion.
Because they aie, of couise, pollinating all of the plants anu floweis in the aieas that they
gathei theii eneigy to piouuce honey. I thought that was veiy intiiguing.
What is theie about humans that might allow us to auu back to oui eco-iegions anu the
whole planet, anu actually contiibute value insteau of just sucking it up anu taking it away
fiom othei life systems. So I have been thinking in those teims - anu then ielating it back
to the challenge of the city.
Eventually a book emeigeu |!"#$%&'( *+#,- ./0(1#+0"'&, !"#$((+%$"2$3 40& #5$ 617'" 6+/$j. I
attempteu to embiace this tiajectoiy of my own inquiiies, anu in wiiting the book, I ieally
wanteu to tiy anu tap into the many wisuom of the authoiities of uiffeient aspects of
human systems. The book actually enueu up becoming 12 chapteis, wheie each was a
focus of what I consiueieu to be an intelligence that ielateu to the scale of the city.
Theie aie actually five gioups of intelligences that aie wiitten about acioss the 12
chapteis of the book. The fiist foui chapteis aie about the !"#$%&$'#( intelligences, anu in
this confeience, they became the topic anu theme of the fiist week of the confeience. Bow
we look at ouiselves now as the Planet of Cities, because we now know that Su to 9u
peicent of humans actually live in cities. That vaiiation ianges so wiuely because about
Su% live in cities in the ueveloping woilu anu moie like 9u peicent of the uevelopeu
woilu of humans live in cities. That is why we aie Planet of Cities.
The next two sections in the book look at intelligences that ielate to the integial mouel.
Fiist of all the )#*'+'*,-. intelligences - those that ielate to the innei anu outei
intelligences ielateu to inuiviuuals. Then the !"..%/$'+% intelligences that ielate to cultuie
anu social systems anu stiuctuies. Those foui chapteis ielateu to how we lookeu at
uesigning the confeience fiom the peispective of the seconu week, which was thinking
about us as uaia's Reflective 0igan. What kinu of integial intelligences uo we have insiue
of us that make us able to be the ieflective oigan of uaia.
The thiiu section of my book embouieu thiee intelligences that I calleu 0$1-$%('/
intelligences, anu they became the theme of the thiiu week of the confeience, which was
Aligning Stiategies to Piospei. Bow can we connect all of the intelligences with logic
piocessois.
Anu now this fouith week we've been looking at how to Amplify all those Intelligences,
anu they uiaw on the last chaptei in the book which I call 3+".,$'"#-14 intelligences. I
ieally uiu have a sense that these weie being poweieu by an evolutionaiy impulse - some
people might call that spiiitual, some might call it by anothei name. Whatevei you call it, it
is eviuent an evolutionaiy impulse is what has ieally uiiven all otheis.
I look at the city anu think about this in veiy wiue teims, anu tiy to embiace the way of
not only thinking of the Planet of Cities, but how coulu we actually uesign something like a
new opeiating system foi the city. We take oui way of thinking about the city not fiom
just an innei anthiopocentiic peispective, but how coulu we blow it up to the city eco-
iegion anu planetaiy level, anu how can we invite into the conveisation as many people as
possible.
So that biings me to the time that I met Biett, who is figuiatively sitting acioss fiom me at
oui uialogue table heie. That was not veiy long ago. We met veiy biiefly at a couple of
confeiences in the integial community, anu then last yeai he piouuceu the Integial
Leaueiship Confeience, anu I was piivilegeu to paiticipate both as a speakei anu as
paiticipant. I thought: this is a wonueiful way to be able to take the iueas that I've been
geneiating evei since I wiote the book, anu tiy anu engage a laigei global conveisation.
Thiough Biett's combination of imagination, the platfoim outieach, anu even the use of
the Naestio confeience phone system - this was what leu me to go knock on his uooi anu
say: Biett I have an iuea that I'u like to exploie with you. What uo you think about cieating
a confeience that might actually engage the Integial City 2.u.
C-,<E Well, my question foi Biett is, what maue you say yes.
C3-,, D<6"70E The shoit answei is, I was inspiieu by the neeu anu Naiilyn's vision foi a
way to meet that neeu. She showeu me that TEB confeience viueo that I think most of the
folks heie have seen.
1
At the point of talking about cieating the 2.u opeiating system foi
the city, those of us who woik in anu aiounu complex systems oi oiganizational life aie
veiy empathetic to the challenges that the planet faces. In the city, anu the planet - also the
leaueis in these |cityj oiganizations |face these complex challengesj. So I ieally felt like
the pioposal that Naiilyn hau was of biinging people togethei fiom uiffeient cities aiounu
the woilu, anu pioviuing a fiamewoik in which they coulu exploie answeis to these
questions was a much bettei solution anu iesponse to the TEB confeience challenge than
just offeiing a single answei.
I am ieminueu of a well-known Einstein quote that most of you have heaiu befoie, which
is: you cannot solve a pioblem fiom the same level of thinking that cieateu the pioblem.
So people know about auaptive change in complex systems, anu sometimes you have a
neeu to solve a pioblem oi cieate a change wheie the unit oiganization in the iegion is in
tiouble. It's election time heie in the 0niteu States (of which many people aiounu the
woilu aie well awaie). |When thinking about these big pioblemsj at a global level, we can
come in with some changes that aie like a technical solution. You can just biing somebouy
in fiom the outsiue, like a plumbei, electiician, oi IT peison, just to install something that
builus technical answeis to technical pioblems. But many of the most uifficult pioblems

1
http:www.youtube.comwatch.featuie=playei_embeuueu&v=g_Cx69}BuTc
that we face as a species in oui lives aie auaptive pioblems, in which the people with the
pioblem often fail to come up with a solution. But fiom outsiue, someone else can help
shape the containei |of leainingj anu influence anu even pioviue some insight anu offei
some tools. But again, the people with the pioblem must help to solve it.
We have seen what that is iequiieu is the people with pioblems neeu to giow anu expanu
theii woiluview anu expanu theii way of thinking - expanuing theii consciousness if you
will, anu be able to woik togethei in new ways. So this is a big pait of Naiilyn's biilliant
vision. Anu it plays iight into my inteiests in integial leaueiship, anu I can make a
comment oi two about that.
We spent the last 12 yeais now teaching integial leaueiship, woiking with the Integial
Institute anu otheis aiounu the woilu to uevelop what is essentially a new appioach to
leaueiship - Integial - that incoipoiates all the othei styles of leaueiship. That's the
intention, anu the big insight that we've hau, that has both uiiven the neeu, in oui view,
but also the appioaches that we've been ueveloping, is that leaueiship is a phenomenon
that aiises any time theie's gioups of people woiking togethei to tiy to solve pioblems. So
it's an inteipeisonal phenomenon in which ceitain inuiviuuals can pioviue motivation anu
influence anu guiuance foi otheis, anu eniol theii suppoit in accomplishing some
significant iesult in a ielationship ovei time.
If we think of leaueiship that way, the pioblem aiises veiy quickly, as we see in the
cuiient 0S elections, anu in many of oui systems, at the city level, iegional level, national
level, anu global level, in which people have uiffeient iueas of what impiovement is. Anu
what is piogiess. Foi some, foi example, with a moie tiauitional woiluview, piogiess is to
go 8'29 to the way it was in the 19Sus; foi otheis with a mouein oi postmouein
woiluview, to intiouuce those teims, piogiess is to evolve 8$,0": the ways of thinking
anu behaving fiom the Su oi 6u yeais ago, anu move into the futuie, anu embiace new
iueas like maiiiage equality, foi example, which is a newei iuea. As well as a new way of
thinking anu behaving.
So what we iealize is, that you can't just have one type of leaueiship foi eveiybouy,
because people with uiffeient woiluviews will tiust ceitain types of leaueiship, anu
mistiust oi uistiust othei styles of leaueiship. As Naiilyn anu you talkeu about, Beth, we
have to leain how to woik togethei, because we uon't have homogenous cities wheie
eveiybouy has a postmouein woiluview, oi eveiybouy has a tiauitional woiluview.
Actually, cities aie, of necessity, a complex natuial system, because humans aie pait of
natuie, anu when bees make a beehive, that's pait of natuie. So one might aigue, when
humans builu cities, that is pait of natuie, as well, to use that analogy. Theiefoie, theie's
going to be uiveisity; we want uiveisity. Then how uo we leau in a way that we can
auuiess the values anu neeus of people that aie, foi example, moie tiauitional, anu people
that aie moie mouein, anu people aie moie postmouein. 0ne might ask: wheie uoes
integial fall into that. An integial woiluview woulu be the woiluview that can actually
uiscein the tiauitional, mouein, anu postmouein; but not only uiscein it, but to see the
value anu benefit of each, anu to begin to see how to weave togethei, in what Naiilyn calls
a meshwoik, of values anu neeus anu ways of inteiacting, again, at anothei level of
complexity. So we must inciease oui consciousness complexity; we must inciease the
complexity of oui woiluview, to be able to holu people with uiffeient value systems, anu
agenuas, anu stakeholueis. The stakeholueis of the city; the voices of the city; anu ieally
leveiage these intelligences to solve the pioblem of how to have sustainable cities, with a
moie complex answei to that pioblem. So we have to go to the next level. We have to go
fiom city 1.u to 2.u, anu I believe the key to that is coming togethei anu not having one
uictatoi say, well this is the answei. I honestly uon't believe the solution will come out of
one peison. I think it's going to iequiie this collaboiation of minus, anu Naiilyn has
cieateu a biilliant fiamewoik, anu I think that we have the seeu of that heie in the Integial
City Collective, anu I look foiwaiu to continuing to woik togethei ovei time,
collaboiatively, with these leaueis fiom cities aiounu the woilu to come up with bettei
solutions.
C-,<E uieat - thank you Biett. You ieally aiticulateu quite well the iole of leaueis anu the
complexity that they neeu to holu in oiuei foi the uesign of a new opeiating system foi the
city to actually emeige. It's inclusive, if you will, oi accepting of vaiious ways to see the
woilu, uefine what impiovement is, oi what we value is. Naiilyn, I'm wonueiing moie
specifically how uo leaueis uesign a new opeiating system foi the city.
A73%$'(E When I was thinking about this question ovei the last couple of uays, I was
looking acioss the entiie confeience. We hau ovei Su thought leaueis, uesigneis anu
piactitioneis paiticipate in this gianu action ieseaich, which was the way that we
uesigneu the confeience. Actually, theie weie foui woius that came to me, anu they aie all
about how we ielate uiffeiently to one anothei. B69 %( ,<- .%,' =6 9- ,37(07.,F <69 =6
9- ,37(0$7,-F <69 =6 9- ,37(0&63"F 7(= <69 =6 9- ,37(0=2.->
I think those may be veibs that leaueis neeu to consiuei, that we aie painting fiom a
complex peispective. What I heaiu in the confeience, paiticulaily in the fiist week, we
heaiu fiom Bill Rees anu Buzz Bolling anu Elizabet Sahtouiis - oui thiee thought leaueis
foi that week. They took us to a whole uiffeient level of thinking about #&'"3'2#+0"3.
0sually we think of a tiansaction as a one-to-one exchange with anothei peison, oi maybe
anothei gioup (if we think about supply chains). But the tiansaction that they aie asking
us to think about is: 9<7, %0 623 ,37(07.,%6( 9%,< ,<- #$7(-,> They aie uiawing oui
attention to the fact that we aie using iesouices in the city - Bill Rees talks about the
caibon footpiint of the city, anu that we know in the uevelopeu woilu we aie using the
equivalent of about thiee to foui planets, in the way that we use the iesouices. Bill points
out that the tiansaction is not ieally veiy faii, because that means that theie's othei
people in the woilu that aie using much less than one planet's poition of what iesouices
they access. If we all continue to oveiuo it, in an attempt to take all of oui cities to the
point of iequiiing thiee to foui planets, uiawing uown oui natuial capital, that will suiely
leau to a bankiuptcy of all of oui natuial systems.
In the tiansaction that Buzz Bolling talkeu about, he showeu us ways to help us
unueistanu that iesilience is a cycle. In fact, we neeu to be able to aujust oui tiansactions
with oui natuial capital systems, so that we unueistanu that as we tiansfoim, we actually
will have to become much bettei useis of the iesouices. So what Biett pointeu to in
quoting Einstein is exactly the kinu of iesilience challenge that we face. Because on a
planetaiy level, of couise, the issues of eveiything fiom climate change, to eneigy, to
watei, aie all ieally challenging us, even iight to the financial tiansactions that we make,
which Rabobank ieminueu us about.
Elizabet Sahtouiis gave us a S.8 billion yeai view of oui evolutionaiy legacy. She tolu us
that, actually, life has emeigeu on eaith in such a way that we aie its natuial beneficiaiies,
anu that, in fact, we can look back anu see that life is actually veiy auaptive. Sahtouiis
ceitainly points not only to how life has manageu to change anu auapt in veiy uifficult
conuitions, anu that, in fact, we aie facing a scale of uissonance in the system that can
cause the shifts to happen, because we must solve these pioblems. Life wants to solve
pioblems so it |as humansj can continue to suivive. Sahtouiis suggests a theme that has
become peivasive of the confeience: anu that is oui 37=%.7$ 6#,%"%0"@
Sahtouiis simply believes that the vibiancy of life is what is in us, anu oui capacity to be
conscious beings - which even Rees pointeu out as well - oui ability to think anu to
imagine the futuie, oui ability to be compassionate, anu have moial ethics. So I woulu say
that I was inspiieu that the tiansactions of compassionate beings aie actually
evolutionaiily sounu. It is cleai that it takes a lot fewei iesouices to make fiienus with
youi neighbois than to make wai with them. Sahtouiis saiu that the biotic systems have
figuieu this out millions anu billions of yeais ago, anu it is now oui stage, as the human
species, to figuie that out.
I think that we staiteu to engage with how leaueis #&'"3('#$ in the seconu week, anu in
fact that was the week that we inviteu Ken Wilbei into the conveisation. Be gave us a
ieally beautiful template that allows us to think about how to tianslate to people anu
cultuies that aie uiffeient than us - not only in cultuies but also even at uiffeient stages of
uevelopment. Be just pointeu out that you neeu to actually tianslate to people whose
values aie uiffeient, in tiauitional veisus mouein veisus postmouein cultuies, anu levels
of woiluviews anu thinking. Anu this came out ieally stiongly also as a competency that
we'ie being calleu to, on a much laigei scale moie often.
Both uiaham Boyu anu }an Inglis talkeu on that fouith uay aftei we hau engageu with Ken
Wilbei. They talkeu about the fact that no one peison can actually access much
intelligence in the woilu at all anymoie. Each one of us has a little bit of access to
knowleuge, because the massive scale of piouuction of it now means that the only way
that we can ieally make sounu uecisions anu juugments with meaningful engagement is
by being togethei in some kinu of an emeigent collective. uiaham actually pointeu to the
hive minu. Though I think that went even beyonu integial.
Bow woulu we actually tianslate in the hive minu. Bow uo we uo that. I think we uon't
ieally know yet. Naybe we piefei to get glimmeis of it the woius in oui lexicon that point
in that uiiection. I think "giok" is one of my favoiite ones. uiok means the kinu of feel -
the gestalt - of what is aiising - the whole thing. Anu inteiestingly, it comes out of Tolkien
(I think). I think that that woiu was cieateu fiom the whole stoiy of the Ring legacy anu
that woiu giok seems to be the essence of how we know all these things aie aspects of the
collective intelligence.
That biings me to how I see $1-#56"17-$'"# emeiging. Ceitainly in oui seconu week we
lookeu at uaia's Reflective 0igan anu how we have integial intelligence. That |integialj
map gives us a ieally stiong view of the teiiitoiy of uevelopment anu evolution in all foui
quauiants. The " I, It, We anu Its". What we founu theie was tiansfoimation. 0nce we
unueistanu that it can actually make a uiffeience in how we uesign oui builuings. So Naik
BeKay was a leauei who coulu point to having thought thiough the whole wonueiful
histoiy of aichitectuie anu how the built city has emeigeu. We have to consiuei that, in
fact, how we builu cities actually cieates the possibility foi how we tiansfoim the
consciousness of the people in the city.
This came up this fouith week again, even when we weie looking at evolutionaiy outei
intelligence thiough Steve Nacintosh's uiscussion of the impact of the coie values of
beauty anu tiuth anu goouness. So I think this haikens back to the whole iuea of
netwoiking that Biett also mentioneu. I often consiuei that my woik is meshwoiking out
at a planetaiy scale foi cities. The meshwoiking allows us to think about how uo we cieate
habitats foi leaining. Bow uo we cieate habitat foi tiansfoimation. That is one of the
cuiiosities I have about cities.
It seems to me we'ie in such a beautiful containei - it is iich with iesouices, but we
haven't yet quite figuieu out how to align them all. So a lot of times when we tiy to
connect uots it looks like just a gieat big mess. But we actually have a tiemenuous amount
of science anu even ait that take us into nonlineai ways of tiying to see how to pull
togethei a system that woiks on a whole new level of scale foi tiansfoimation.
I think this is something that leaueis aie actually now being calleu in to think about. You
know my job as a leauei is not just to leau this team oi just leau this oiganization. It coulu
be to leau the sectoi oi the community, oi to leau the city. Even yesteiuay when we weie
looking at evolutionaiy innei intelligence anu engaging with two people who aie ieally I
woulu say, uesigneis of spiiitual systems - Ciaig Bamilton anu Biuce Sanguin. It was
inteiesting to listen to them be almost inspiieu anu awakeneu iight on aii to not having
thought about the impact of theii woik on the city.
I woulu point out that a lot of the times when we aie tiying to tiansfoim ouiselves
thiough spiiitual ietieat, that in fact we aie leaving the city. This uiscoveiy that the
ihythm anu the patteins of the city aie often something that we have to take some kinu of
ielief fiom, because they've not yet been built so they'ie at the same vibiation as natuial
systems (which we aie). We neeu the ietieat - but that is an inteiesting challenge, anu I
think oui whole spiiitual communities of faith systems neeu to engage with this anu each
othei to cieate spiiitual sanctuaiies in the city itself.
This is a huge oppoitunity foi spiiitual tiansfoimation that can help oui human hive biing
in the coie values of beauty, tiuth, anu goouness, anu iealize that they aie not auu-ons.
They aie not meiely the extia classes that a lot of euucation systems want to cancel. They
aie actually coie to be able to cieate habitats that allow us to expanu human systems to
the gieatest possible height anu uepth.
That uaia's Reflective 0igan seems to have the potential to uo this, is because of the last
veib - tiansuucing. It was actually intiouuceu yesteiuay by Teiiy Patten anu it was
something that kinu of emeigeu out of, I woulu say, piesencing. Because we weie actually
togethei in a space, even though it was viitual in the confeience, we weie able to have a
ieal felt expeiience of how we woik togethei on this planet. We weie actually tapping into
what some people iefei to as the noetic fielu - oi the moiphogenetic fielu, is anothei teim
that some people use. Actually, we can tiansuuce fiom that fielu into a much gieatei
awaieness of how oui collective intelligence, of how oui collective consciousness,
connects us in non-local ways that aie veiy ieal.
A lot of leauing scientists actually tiy to look at this anu measuie it, in teims of ianuom
numbei geneiatois, when the whole planet is focuseu on a single event, whethei it's with
an 0lympic final oi a veiy sau oi moving event like Piincess Biana's ueath. We aie now
actually ueveloping measuiable metiics that show how oui consciousness is connecteu
acioss the planet. So I think that the confeience has actually alloweu us to see the ieality
of what Biett is uesciibing.
We neeu instiuctois of leaueiship at a whole new scale. Theie is something ieal foi us to
consiuei about the powei of cities, anu the oppoitunity that we have to finally shift oui
egocentiic, ethnocentiic, woilucentiic, up to a whole planet - I woulu say city anu woilu
centiic leaueiship, to actually be uniteu in a planet-centiic way of honoiing each othei anu
all life systems. I ieally think that that is both the challenge anu the oppoitunity foi
leaueis touay - especially connecteu in the city.
C-,<E What a beautiful summaiy, Naiilyn, of wheie we've tiaveleu fiom, both fiom within
the content anu what we've been exploiing in the confeience, but also how humanity is
emeiging fiom tiansaction, tianslation, tiansfoimation anu tiansuuction. Biett, what
Naiilyn is getting into heie ieally is a goou conscious footpiint of the city. I'm cuiious how
can we expanu the conscious footpiint of cities.
C3-,,E That's the $64,uuu question. Bow uo you help people uevelop. Bow uo you help
people become moie conscious. I think that many of the people listening to this call, anu
many of the people involveu in this type of woik, myself incluueu, we all felt some type of
a calling. We all feel something pulling us, that we want to inciease oui consciousness, anu
we want to help oui fiienus anu loveu ones, anu the people that we have influence with,
whethei we'ie teacheis oi consultants oi leaueis, to help people iaise theii consciousness.
0ltimately, theie's this palpable feeling that the planet, that human beings, that humanity
neeus to begin to iaise its consciousness, in oiuei to solve these pioblems fiom the next
level.
But not only that, theie's this teim, "ciicle of concein." It's a way of thinking of the
egocentiic, ethnocentiic, woilucentiic concept that Naiilyn was speaking to. What we
neeu to unueistanu is that wheie people aie in theii own psychological uevelopment, anu
the psychological uevelopment as we've seen, anu we look at social systems, is tieu to the
euucational system, the techno-economic base of that cultuie.
So foi cultuies that aie still agiaiian, oi huntei gatheiei cultuies, oi eaily inuustiial
cultuies, those aie the "Its", the "systems" uimension, those aie going to have a stiong
influence on the cultuie. The cultuie then, in an agiaiian system, is likely to be tiauitional.
The cultuie of moie of a feuual society oi tiibal, we might call that an impeiial value
system oi cultuie. 0f couise we see majoi paits of the woilu moving fiom an agiaiian into
an inuustiial society, such as laige paits of China, anu paits of Asia, anu in othei places in
the woilu. You see them moving into wheie theii cultuie is becoming moie mouein. Anu
that, in tuin, affects the inuiviuuals. Because the cultuie of the society in which we live, as
we'ie being socializeu as chiluien, will biing us up to that place, that centei of giavity, of
that cultuie. So if you'ie in an agiaiian society, socialization will biing you up to a
tiauitional woiluview, but then will tiy to kinu of holu you back, anu theie'll be a
iesistance, a kinu of a giavitational foice that pulls you back uown to that tiauitional
cultuie, because that's what eveiybouy thinks anu believes. So then if you want to become
moie mouein anu postmouein, you have to basically be unconventional. You have to step
outsiue of conventions.
So this stuff matteis. This is why integial theoiy is impoitant, anu applieu integial theoiy
in the foim of integial leaueiship, I think is veiy impoitant, anu can be veiy insightful.
Because it helps us unueistanu that if you want inuiviuuals, anu gioups of people, as well
as the cultuie of an entiie gioup of people, anu oiganizations in the foim of a company, oi
the centei giavity of the cultuie of a city oi a iegion oi countiy. If you want to inciease the
ciicle of concein, the iuea of uevelopment becomes veiy, veiy impoitant.
Theie's a couple of insights that I can shaie that aie coming out of integial leaueiship that
aie pietty significant. This iuea of ciicle of concein. We, listening to this call, geneially
have a quite laige ciicle of concein. We'ie thinking about linking cities togethei, anu the
effect that has on oui nations anu the globe. Anu we'ie thinking about the planet. We call
that a woilucentiic consciousness, oi ciicle of concein. You have to unueistanu, theie aie
many people in oui lives, in oiganizations in which we seive, in the cities in which we live
anu leau, that uo not shaie that ciicle of concein. That's not only a ieflection of a stage of
psychological uevelopment. a late stage psychological uevelopment. you might say, a
veiy complex consciousness, oi a veiy high-level consciousness. But it's also a ieflection of
the woiluview. It's a woilucentiic woiluview. But many people aie moie "mouein" anu
they want faiiness foi eveiybouy, but they still want to win, anu it's a zeio-sum game, anu
if I get moie money, somebouy else has to get less. So we'ie seeing this play out in the 0S
elections iight now. It's a kinu of Ayn Ranu point of view, which is that the woilu is maue
up of winneis anu loseis, anu the winneis ueseive - to the victoi goes the spoils. We see
people iunning foi office in this countiy that aie espousing that kinu of way of thinking.
We see that in Wall Stieet financial meltuowns, anu all these things, wheie it's okay foi the
smaitei, iichei people to have it all, anu its fine, you know. So theie's that mentality,
which is not completely. it uoesn't have that same caie anu concein. It's moie about caie
anu concein about my stockholueis, anu my shaieholueis.
Also, we have membeis of oui family, ministeis of the local chuiches oi synagogues oi
temples, anu just many, many people that have a moie of an ethnocentiic ciicle of concein.
Wheie, ieally, only people that believe in my ieligion, anu have my same skin coloi oi
ethnicity, ueseive that caie anu concein. Anu those otheis aie just kinu of vieweu as
outsiueis at best, oi at woist, thieatening. So we see this acioss the Niuule East, in many
paits of the woilu, anu in eveiy city. You'ie going to have this piejuuice, anu this iacism,
anu this xenophobia, which comes fiom ethnocentiic woiluviews, a tiauitional woiluview.
Anu a less complex consciousness. Even people with impeiial woiluview that aie at a pie-
conventional stage of uevelopment, wheie they mainly caie about themselves, it's kinu of
"eveiy man foi himself" mentality.
The tiick is. the integial point of view, is to unueistanu that no mattei how much we
want to piay about it, oi meuitate about it, oi "I know ;5$ <$2&$#, so we'ie going to wish
oui way to eveiybouy having woilucentiic consciousness, this is the sobeiing ieality. But
it's impoitant that we face the facts. Eveiybouy is boin at a moie egocentiic way of
thinking anu feeling. They tenu to uevelop up to a moie ethnocentiic, anu only if theii
society, incluuing the economics, anu the euucational system, the ieligious systems, the
leaueis in that society, only if eithei a) the society has evolveu, it will pull people to a
mouein anu postmouein woiluview, oi a post-conventional ciicle of concein. 0i they
have to be unconventional, anu they have to have the couiage, then, to move beyonu the
centei giavity of theii cultuie. This is wheie integial leaueiship comes in. Because it's not
going to happen just by wishing it. We have to leain how to skilfully inteiact with people
to suppoit anu appieciate theii woiluview, theii way of thinking. Belp them meet theii
neeus wheie they aie, to motivate anu influence anu leau them accoiuing to wheie they
aie, but gently cieate the conuitions in which fuithei uevelopment is possible. Populaiize
woiluviews anu values, thiough tianslation, to them in a way that they can embiace, anu
that's not off-putting. As that happens, it takes time, but we'ie ieally beginning to see that
this is absolutely possible. Bo you agiee Naiilyn.
A73%$'(E Yes, Biett, I ieally uo. I'm seeing many signs of it. Even in the speakeis anu
piesenteis in the confeience. Some of them I have known anu followeu theii woik foi ovei
2u yeais, anu I'u say Bill Rees was one of the people that ieally inspiieu me to think that
people change - even people who have ueep expeitise like he uoes, aiounu having ieally
cieateu the whole fiamewoik fiom the caibon footpiint, by tuining the whole question
about caiiying capacity on its heau. Anu yet, when I askeu him - because he also hau just
come back fiom Rio +2u, anu he was iathei uepiesseu about the iesults theie - but
unueiscoiing what he has been biinging foiwaiu as "haiu tiuths" to the woilu foi quite a
long time, he now sees that ieally, the souice of a new view of the woilu, the souice that
woulu auuiess Einstein's uilemma - a way out of these intiactable pioblems - is to uiaw on
that which makes us uistinctively human. What is that. Bill points out that we have the
capacity foi logic; we have the capacity to think in the futuie. But what ieally piickeu my
eais up was, he saiu that we aie moial beings - we have a moial intelligence anu we have
compassion. Anu these themes aie iecuiiing thioughout the confeience.
So this whole iuea that you'ie talking about - the ciicle of caie - of couise, Ken Wilbei
pointeu that out as well, anu in oui uialogue what became obvious was that the only way
that we'ie going to be able to auuiess the intiactable pioblems is that we biing in the
wholeness of who we aie as humans. Anu that has to embiace self, cultuie anu natuie anu
in all of the ways that those have aiisen aiounu the woilu.
Peihaps the leaueis that you'ie talking about, Biett, that have the most complex emeigent
manifestation of theii leaueiship intelligence anu qualities, it may be oui job is to be able
to cieate the habitats wheie we can connect those uots up. I consiuei the connections
aiising fiom the confeience to be moie than simply the people who weie piesenteis oi
paiticipants, but those who aie connecteu to gioups whose own puipose is ielateu to a
ciicle of caie - at evei-expanuing sizes anu scales.
In anothei moue, we heaiu people like }ean Bouston. I know that }ean actually was a
piesentei in all thiee of youi confeiences - in the oiiginal Integial Leaueiship
Collaboiative anu also in the Enlightenment Confeience, anu also in this confeience. I
wanteu }ean, because I have been woiking with hei anu hei social aitistiy. I ieally wanteu
us to notice, what is the new stoiy of the city. What's the new naiiative that we have about
the city. Iionically, when I extenueu an invitation to }ean, she saiu that she uiun't uo any
woik in cities. }ean actually saiu hei specialty was that she woikeu with the human psyche.
She knows hunuieus of cultuies aiounu the woilu fiisthanu, anu she can not only speak
some of those languages, but she also knows theii sense of humoi. She also knows this
zeitgeist of the planet, because of the influences on hei life fiom eveiybouy fiom Naigaiet
Neau to Teilhaiu ue Chaiuin, anu many people in between. So that you know what I saiu
to }ean was: I uon't neeu you to know specifically about cities, but if you only came anu
talkeu about human psyche, cultuie anu oui planetaiy zeitgeist you woulu ieveal oui
cities to us. Anu inueeu, of couise, she uiu exactly that. Because cities emeige fiom the
stoiies we tell.
Anu this insight of how we look at oui consciousness thiough oui cultuies anu the stoiies
that we tell, came up again anu again ovei all foui weeks. I can think of people like Tam
Lunuy anu Ann Bale anu Ann Peioueau who weie ieally, all in one uay, unuei the theme of
)#8,'14. But we lookeu at Appieciative Inquiiy to uiscovei how the ieal impetus foi
inquiiy comes fiom kinuness, anu caie, anu humoi. So the stoiies that we see in the
newspapeis aie such a contiast to this iauical optimism that ian thiough the confeience
as a theme. Because the meuia aie, of couise, using woiluviews that say you sell papeis by
actually amplifying the uisasteis anu conflicts in the woilu. Wheieas what we'ie using
heie aie assumptions, not only about iauical optimism, but that thiough appieciating
what woiks, anu fanning the flames of what woiks, we can actually cieate moie of those
capacities.
You pointeu fiequently to the fact that values mattei. When we weie actually looking at
the theme of 9-+'(-$'#( intelligence, Bazel Benueison was the peison who ieminueu us
that actually you can make that mattei iight uown to the uollai anu cents focus, because
she has now cieateu, along with }anine Benyus, the authoi of =+07+7+2&,, a whole set of
piinciples foi investment baseu on living systems - living system piinciples foi
investment .
uil Fiienu shaieu that he cannot woik with oiganizations anu cities oi communities unless
he staits with unueistanuing what matteis to them. What is impoitant foi people becomes
a way of not only finuing out the coie values that ieally aie uiiving us. We aie uiiven by
oui sense of beauty anu tiuth anu goouness, which seem to be univeisal values shaieu
eveiywheie acioss all cultuies of the woilu. But this is one of oui stiategies anu the
technologies wheie we expanu the conscious footpiint of the city. I think if we uo that, we
can uo something like actually ieuuce the caibon footpiint of the city.
I know that I woke up this moining thinking about the iiony of ieuucing the caibon
footpiint of the city. When that was fiist pioposeu, I iemembei the soit of "shock anu awe"
people expeiienceu. People hau a ieal contiaction aiounu that challenge that seemeu to
mean that we hau to give up a lot of the factois that make oui quality of life goou -
paiticulaily in the uevelopeu woilu. Theie was a ieal iesistance to that. Now, aftei you
have 2u yeais of not only having heaiu the neeu to ieuuce oui caibon footpiint - but many
cities aie actually living these haiu tiuths in viviu uetail. I can even think of the 0lympics
in Beijing, wheie they actually hau to shut uown a goou ueal of theii manufactuiing
system to ieuuce, not only the paiticulates in the aii, but the actual caibon emissions of
the city, anu the gieenhouse gases, that weie choking people. Not only thiough visible
pollution, but impacting the whole health of the athletes anu coaches who weie aiiiving
theie to uemonstiate theii own physical capacities of excellence.
What I see is that quality of life - how people in this confeience have engageu aiounu it -
aiises actually thiough an amplification of oui consciousness anu oui cultuie. When we
look at the integial map, we notice the left-hanu quauiants have such possibilities foi
emeigence. You know, it's not about ieuucing what is on the iight quauiants - it is actually
about making them much moie effective anu efficient. If we coulu become as effective anu
efficient of oui species as the honeybee is foi theii species, then I think we coulu actually
figuie out foi oui cities what is the equivalent of oui 4u pounus of honey. I ask myself that
question: what is the human equivalent of 4u pounus of honey pei yeai foi each city.
I uo believe that the answei lies in amplifying oui consciousness anu oui cultuie, so that
we eniich the ways that we connect to each othei as uaia's Reflective 0igan. We aie able
to ieflect togethei, thiough oui stoiytelling, anu able to ieflect to ouiselves, as we actually
notice what is impoitant to us. Being able to notice even what we notice, is an amazing
quality of evolutionaiy emeigence. So I'm feeling that the theme of iauical optimism is not
just a piece of spin. I uo think theie's evolutionaiy eviuence foi it. I uo think it is what
actually can anu is uiiving uaia's Reflective 0igan, anu it gives me a gieat ueal of eneigy to
think that outcomes fiom this whole confeience can leau to some veiy substantive
valuable changes iooteu in the coie values of beauty, tiuth, anu goouness, consciousness
anu cultuie, along with the systems anu natuie that we see ouiselves as being an
evolutionaiy iesult of.
I guess, Biett, you might've figuieu out when you fiist met me, I am an optimist myself.
Even without thinking about the "iauical" teim, I uo believe that theie's a lot of ieason foi
us to look at the oppoitunities foi oui Planet of Cities as being the glass is half-full, iathei
than the glass is half empty.
C-,<E Thank you Naiilyn. You'ie evoking a poweiful anu eneigizing futuie foi oui Planet
of Cities. You'ie also ieally looking quite viviuly at the foui quauiants of integial theoiy .
anu I'u like to ieconnect with Biett about how to connect this notion of a consciousness
footpiint, anu ieuucing the caibon footpiint. Biett, how aie you to at Stagen veiy involveu
with conscious capitalism. This is about how uo we expanu the conscious footpiint of the
city, so we can ieuuce the caibon footpiint of the city.
C3-,,E We at Integial Institute anu Stagen aie veiy involveu with the conscious capitalism
movement. This question that's been poseu: how uo we expanu the conscious footpiint of
the city so we can ieuuce the caibon footpiint of the city. This is such an impoitant
question. I like how Naiilyn saiu, "the human equivalent of the 4u pounus of honey." Bow
uo cities anu human society in its inuiviuual hives, a Planet of Cities, how can we meet the
neeus, pioviuing foi the neeus of oui citizens, anu uoing it in a way without uestioying
the enviionment in which we exist in, anu uestioying oui biological suppoit system which
is not goou foi anybouy. This is the tiick. I want to uesciibe what I think, anu my
colleagues believe, is a veiy impoitant insight that we just toucheu on, but I want to go a
little bit ueepei. Because I ieally think it's impoitant. I've spent the last 12 yeais in a ueep
uive tiying unueistanu integial leaueiship, anu I believe this is one of the biggest insights
to come out of my uecaue-plus ieseaich. The Buuuha calleu it "skilful means," anu I think
that we can think of it as "tianslations." The Buuuha useu the teim skilful means - teach
people accoiuing to theii ability to unueistanu. I think theie's a coiollaiy to integial
leaueiship, motivate anu influence people. Neet people wheie they aie, then motivate anu
influence them accoiuingly - accoiuing to how they think.
I want to uiaw a uistinction heie between tiansfoimation anu tianslation. Anu intiouuce,
peihaps, a new concept: tianslation leauing to tiansfoimation. Beie's how I woulu explain
it. Let us iemembei that it takes many yeais, sometimes uecaues, to tiansfoim the
consciousness of inuiviuuals, gioups, anu whole societies. 0ltimately, that's the long-teim
goal. In oui lifetime, we all hope anu believe, anu aie iauically optimistic that we aie going
to figuie out a way to acceleiate how long it takes, anu how many iesouices it takes, to
help inuiviuuals anu gioups, anu whole societies tiansfoim theii consciousness to moie
complex, highei levels of consciousness, wheie they natuially have a woilucentiic concein,
foi the caibon footpiint, foi example. But the ieality is, that even at the cutting-euge, out
of Baivaiu, anu Stanfoiu, anu Boston college, anu Integial Institute, anu the leauing think
tanks in the woilu, at best it takes yeais. Anu foi gioups anu societies, it can take uecaues.
So that's tiansfoimation. Yes, we want that. But if we'ie limiteu to that alone, to
tiansfoimation of consciousness, it takes a long time. So theie's this othei iuea of
tianslation. It only takes uays, weeks, oi months, to influence people to auopt new ways of
thinking anu acting, if you tianslate an iuea so that people can iecognize that theie is a
goou ieason to uo it, foi theii own ieason, baseu on theii cuiient woiluview anu values.
This is a huge, kinu of juuo move, oi as oui fiienu Baiiett Biown saiu, who spoke at the
confeience, a kinu of global acupiessuie point. That we can get huge leveiage with a small
amount of action.
So let's take ieuucing the caibon footpiint. Foi people with a postmouein woiluview, anu
foi people that have woilucentiic consciousness, it's just natuial. I feel bettei when I
iecycle. I feel bettei if I make a puichase of a vehicle that piouuces less caibon pollution,
anu so on. That's natuial. But what about the people with the mouein woiluview. Nany of
my clients aie veiy conseivative, anu they aie achieveis, anu foi many of them, it's a zeio-
sum game, anu it's about making moie money. In the shoit teim. Anu that's wheie theii
going to vote, foi ceitain politicians, anu foi ceitain legislation. Anu that's how they'ie
going to vote with theii uollais. Anu they aie going to buy the big cai, because that's a
status symbol. So people with a mouein woiluview, who we call achieveis, is theie ieason
foi them to iecycle, oi to suppoit behaviois anu piouucts anu seivices that ieuuce the
caibon footpiint. Yes, theie is. If theie's a way to make money at it. So what many leaueis
have uone is, they've begun to tianslate it into a mouein, achievei minuset, the ieasons
that it makes sense to have a hybiiu vehicle, foi example, oi to iecycle watei, anu so on. So
if we can show the mouein woiluview that it enhances the economy of the city, oi iegion,
oi a nation, oi globally, to uo these things, then it makes sense foi a mouein ieason. It
makes sense because it's goou foi the economy, it's goou foi my business.
Then finally, the tiauitional woiluview, theie aie many people in many of oui cities
woiluwiue that have a veiy tiauitional woiluview, uefineu as: eveiything's fine, because
theie is kinu of a "paient" in the sky, some kinu of highei powei - which is usually male, in
the last 2,uuu yeais anyway - that is contiolling eveiything. Anu as long as we just follow
Bis iules, accoiuing to the "wisuom book," anu that book is uiffeient, uepenuing on what
iegion of the woilu you weie boin in anu live in, if you'ie tiauitional, then we'ie okay. But
theie's a ieason to take caie of the planet, anu take caie of oui enviionment theie as well.
So we have to tianslate into those tiauitional ways of thinking that this highei powei, you
know, has pioviueu us with this, anu let's take goou caie of it. Let's finu the sciiptuies anu
the tiauitional ways of thinking in the uiffeient cultuies anu ieligions that suppoit taking
caie of youi enviionment, that suppoit tieating youi neighboi well, anu coopeiating with
youi neighboi in a way so that oui shaieu enviionment can be caieu foi. Theie's a way to
tianslate it theie too. uou wants you to iecycle, to put it veiy bluntly. Anu that's veiy
believable, if you have people that have tiauitional positions, foi example, ministeis anu
pieacheis, anu pastois anu so on, that can say that with congiuence to theii tiauitional
auuience. That's one simple example - iecycling, oi moie sustainable piactices.
Integial leaueiship shows us that if we tianslate anu help people with uiffeient
woiluviews anu at uiffeient levels of uevelopment see a ieason to uo the iight thing, foi
theii ieasons, accoiuing to theii values, then we uon't have to wait uecaues. We can veiy
quickly use this unueistanuing of what motivates people, an unueistanuing that is not
homogenous, to uo the behavioi that the veiy complex people at Einstein's next level of
unueistanuing - we neeu to auuiess the caibon footpiint - but uo it foi theii own ieasons.
This is the essence of integial leaueiship. It's not iequiiing people to tiansfoim, in the
shoit teim, to be able to uo a behavioi anu embiace an iuea that ultimately will tiansfoim,
in this case, the ozone layei, oi oui caibon footpiint, oi being moie sustainable. So this is
one of the big insights of integial leaueiship, anu it is essentially the essence of what, I
think, Naiilyn, what you'ie uoing with these uiffeient intelligences, anu unueistanuing the
voices of the cities, which iepiesent the uiffeient stakeholueis. It is a foim of tianslation. If
we can get people to embiace it, we can acceleiate the tiansfoimation towaiu oui shaieu
goals.
C-,<E Beautiful. Thanks foi that aiticulation. Really, tianslation is about meeting people
wheie they'ie at, anu cieating the conuitions foi them to be well wheie they'ie at, anu
then, actually, as they neeu to, they will take on the challenges that aie meeting them.
Naiilyn we'ie going to wiap up heie shoitly with the foimal pait of oui piogiam, anu I
want to come to you with some closing comments. As you ieflect on this moining's
conveisation anu these questions we've been exploiing, what's next.
A73%$'(E I uo want to acknowleuge Biett foi using veiy skilful means to illustiate how
tianslation can be ieally poweiful, because when I use the foui veibs of #&'"3'2#> #&'"3('#$>
#&'"340&7 '": #&'"3:12$ - I want to auu, I also hau a ieally stiong expeiience of what it
woulu actually iequiie to take them to a whole new level - to a new octave, if you will. We
will neeu to iecalibiate them. So Biett, you gave a veiy beautiful anu elegant iecalibiation
of tianslation itself. That was something that emeigeu as a theme thioughout the
confeience. We leaineu to notice what we weie noticing, about becoming conscious of oui
consciousness, at a whole new level. By uoing so, it gives us this uouble anu tiiple
feeuback loop, that is calleu uouble anu tiiple leaining. That gives us the oppoitunity to uo
so inuiviuually, anu it is, I think, wheie we will have to go with something like collective
intelligence. This was also a cuiiosity that we came into the confeience with. I also ieally
appieciate, Biett, that you gave us some ieally substantive things that we can uo, anu
leain how to uo, as leaueis, by giving us examples of how to tianslate into the uiffeient
woiluviews.
That ieminus me of something else that we talkeu about eaily on - you iealizeu that the
city itself cieateu a scale wheie all of these places that you've been with leaueis (anu I've
been in my caieei), now we can see that we can woik simultaneously with leaueis anu
teams anu gioups, in neighboihoous, in oiganizations anu sectois, anu the city itself. You
staiteu to see that in looking at the scale of the city, we might actually be able to acceleiate
the long numbei of yeais that you weie being veiy iealistic about pointing out that it takes
to tiansfoim on youi own, oi to tiansfoim in a small gioup. What happens when we stait
to consiuei the city, is that we cieate the conuitions foi a whole supply chain change. Foi
example, to use oiganizational jaigon - when a whole supply chain chooses to change
togethei. I coulu point to IS0 9uuu, IS0 14uuu, as examples of a piotocol to which
oiganizations committeu in the last 2u yeais, anu that has changeu the way that
oiganizations influence each othei, not only foi quality contiol, which I think was theii
oiiginal impetus, but now foi sustainability anu iesilience. So if we can think about setting
up piotocols within cities, anu between cities, anu I know that that, in itself, is also
happening, then we aie actually going to cieate conuitions foi acceleiating tiansfoimation,
as we uo the tianslation that you talk about.
What can I say to oui listeneis anu oui auuience to attempt to summaiize things - how
can I tianslate this.. Yesteiuay, I kinu of came to the conclusion that woius aie not
sufficient, but they aie iequiieu. I woulu come back to ieminuing us that the challenge
that we set out to uesign a new opeiating system foi the city is actually embouieu in all of
the intelligences we exploieu. Also I useu a uesign foi the piogiam that embiaces,
cuiiiculum, planning anu stiategy, anu offeis a kinu of piotocol foi asking how to uo
anything.
Basically the equation goes like this: Bow uoes Who (the leaueis) uesign a new opeiating
system foi Whom (the city with the foui voices of citizens, civil society, business, anu
goveinmental institutions) foi What puipose, When anu Wheie. 60? :0$3 @50 :$3+%" '
"$? 0A$&'#+"% 3,3#$7 40& @507> 40& @5'# A1&A03$> @5$" '": @5$&$B
That is actually oui uesign challenge now.
I woulu like to ieminu us, as we go out anu continue to engage the inquiiy that we staiteu
heie, that the Nastei Coue that I uiscoveieu - oi, it uiscoveieu me at the enu of wiiting my
book - embiaces all of the piinciples that I tiieu to builu in foi each of the 12 intelligences.
It's veiy simple, but it's also veiy complex. Because just as Biett pioposeu that we neeu to
leain how to tianslate tiansfoimation, I woulu ask us to think about: what uoes it mean to
live this Nastei Coue thiough woiluviews that aie tiauitional, thiough woiluviews that
aie mouein, to postmouein anu integial lenses.
Bow can we manage to live the Nastei Coue, which simply says:
,7G- .73- 6& '6230-$&
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,7G- .73- 6& ,<%0 #$7.- I9<%.< %(.$2=-0 J6,< ,<- .%,' 7(= ,<- #$7(-,K@
The last thought I'u like to leave oui listeneis with - anu I'u like to thank you veiy much
foi joining me, Biett, in this uialogue - it's a ieally beautiful bookenu to wheie we staiteu
the confeience. Thank you Beth foi hosting.
C-,<E Wonueiful. Thank you Naiilyn. Thank you Biett.
~~~

1

Amplifying Intelligence Accessing Our
Evolutionary Power Source
What and where are we living the master evolutionary code?
Speakers: Amy Oliver, Cherie Beck, George Por, Alia Aurania
Host: David Faber
Dialogue with the 4 Generations, 4 Cities, 4 voices of the city
David Faber (Interviewer).
Amy Oliver Millennial, Montreal, (UR) government
Cherie Beck GenX, Baltimore, (UL) city-zen
George Por Boomer, London, (LR) business
Alia Aurania Silent/Artist, Seattle, (LL) not-for-profit
David Faber: Our first question is to Amy, and we have about 40 minutes for this section
of our dialogue - and well see how we move through. There are so many wonderful
questions and things that we want to explore today. What have you learned about working
for the planet of cities as we work in our cities on this planet? When we think of the city as
a living system for example, emergent, resilient, how does it impact the design of - versus
the design for - this concept of a new operating system for the city of the future - City 2.0?
Amy Oliver: Thanks for that great question! In relation to that first part of the question I
have a few takeaways to offer. The first week [of the conference] was really about seeing
the city as a living system and understanding the different life cycles in systems within the
city and between cities, because cities arent islands but are actually interconnected. The
very nature of this online conference highlights the complex interconnections of cities. We
learned from Bill Rees that a new cultural narrative is necessary and this must, within it,
include a shift from me to we.
We also learned that in designing a new operating system that we need to experiment. As
Buzz Holling mentioned, spending time with like-minded people will help us achieve our
greater purpose.
We also learned that the city is really a fractal of the whole system and that we must be
conscious and aware of the resources and the hinterlands that are required to sustain life
in the city. In terms of designing a new operating system for the city, our speakers gave
many valuable insights. So Ill just list a few of the key takeaways from our first week.
In order to design a new operating system, we need to tap into our rational self and not
our emotional self, and this is an excellent exercise in consciousness. If we recognize we
are heading in the wrong direction, we can simultaneously recognize huge potential and
capacity. Similarly, if we start to recognize the impact humans have on the global
ecosystem, we can begin to see how to change the change. Buzz Holling echoed this idea
when he outlined Panarchy theory. When there is collapse, there is also opportunity; and
finally in order to tackle the five pronged crises outlined by Jan de Dood - which are crises
in water, food, energy, [finance] and climate - we need to not only research and collect
data, but we also need to learn to learn together and have dialogue. I just want to end on
this question by saying that after this conference, I am going to continue to ask myself how
to create this new cultural narrative and I think its a really important question. So thank
you.
David: Thank you very much Amy for that, and sharing with us your insights throughout
the entire conference. I would like to move to Cherie with the same question:
Cherie Beck: I think that the place I want to start is to let people know that this is a long
now to use a phrase - a kind of process. So I have been working with Marilyn for almost
four years, thinking back. I was actually there when she unveiled her book four years ago,
right after it had been published, and I think I sat in the audience at one of the first
presentations she did on it. Then two years ago, starting to look at what Marilyn was
seeing in terms of the city, and saying, this is where I am getting pointed; to actually be a
part of the solution to the problems that we have.
It became very clear to me that the city level was the place to start looking and I just kind
of tucked myself up underneath her wing to try to get a sense of what that is. For two
years now I have really been learning what that view is, that Marilyn has tried to outline
for us, and then how do I apply it. So I would learn a little bit from Marilyn, and I would go
out into the city that I happened to be at that point in time, which was San Francisco, and
how do I start to see the city differently? How do I start to see the city at all? How do I look
at it from an integral lens, to which I have actually spent quite a bit of time trying to
understand that lens and see through it.
Then to be part of the conference six months ago and actually be in the conference design,
and then working on how do we create a conference that now echoes what we might be
looking at in the city? So I have had that frame, and then in this conference itself it has
been an immersion of four weeks for me, of Wow, now lets really look at it.
So in terms of its living [system], it actually goes across a life course. My experience of
learning this is going across a life course, having it being emergent to me, means that
every time I get involved in this - and being involved with it means that something new is
coming out of it. That probably is exemplified in the last six months when I sat down, and
just working with the people that just showed up to put the conference on, we were asking
ourselves, What is it we are trying to do here? As I was asking myself that question, what
I was able to offer to the group was, well were having a difficult time even seeing the city,
where is it and how do we look at it. From that point of view it was sort of like. weve got
to go back to being a child. And thinking about [it] as a child [when] we come into the
world, we dont actually see it the way we see it as an adult. Even looking at the basics of
objects in the world, like a tree. As a child, we dont yet have the brains to think in terms of
actually being able to see the tree.
Well the same thing is true for most of us now that are pointing ourselves to the city. We
dont see the city. We see parts of it, we see pieces of it; you can see in terms of a metaphor
for it. We might see the colors of the leaves but were not quite sure how the leaves
connect with the roots but we sort of see the roots. We are in the same kind of position
now with our cities, we see some buildings and we sort of know how they got there. We
see government, we see businesses, but we dont actually understand how the inner
workings that go into how those things are connected. So for me this conference actually
represents the opportunity to take Marilyns view - and shes designed it in such a way
that we can take a look at the city as if it were a tree, and look at it from as many different
angles, and make sure were still trying to get as much of the whole, that we can actually
define and look at it from those angles.
So for me to be part of the design and be in the conference, [gave me] the opportunity and
the collective in order to start seeing the city from as many different perspectives as I can.
Its emerging; I am starting to grow a different mind as I apply myself to this context, and
that translates into the second part of the question, of how do we design a new operating
system for the city.
Well my answer to that is that I always have to start with myself. So the thing I am taking
away from this conference probably greater than anything else is that the operating
system for the city lives in me, and if that operating system doesnt live in me, then its not
going to live out in the world. Its a personal development practice that I put it in me. Since
I have been working on this for so long, I have chosen a city, I have got projects to work on,
and I am actively applying those operating systems in the projects I am working on. I am
having to remain a bit resilient in it, because as much as I would like to move forward on
all of these projects, we are not there yet, so I can only take the next little step toward it.
Taking a step, let it do something, back off it and let it go and then if it comes back to me I
can make another step off it - so there is some resilience in maintaining a commitment to
keep forging this path that isnt quite marked yet.
David: Thank you Cheri very much for that and I just wanted to remind all of our listeners
as well that as we go through each one of our speakers they represent a different voice
within the city.
Moving to Alia in the boomer demographic and not-for-profit space, I wonder if you can
answer the same question Alia, and that is again: what have you learned about working for
the planet of cities as we work in our cities on the planet?
Alia Aurami: Well you know I could talk forever about what I have learned, and I have
only heard a few of the sessions. I just loved what you just said Cherie, the operating
system for the city lives in me. I wrote that down, I love that, its so aligned with my
approach.
I think what I want to say about what I have learned is that it took me a week until I
figured out that I was in a course on the new operating system for the city. I am used to
conferences where the speakers are a collection, and Marilyn has designed for us a
curriculum so each day builds on the previous days. This isnt something that Im going to
go back now to listen to over [random] sessions - I am going to listen to them in order,
because they build through each day, and they build from day to day. So thats one of the
[learnings], it forms a whole, as Amy and Cherie said, but within that whole there is
definitely a design. I dont know why I was just expecting a collection (of speakers) and it
took me a week to figure out, oh! This is actually a course that has been carefully planned
and laid out. What I have learned is thats the way I am going to go about learning and
taking advantage of the riches that this conference has provided.
The first part of the question I will stop at that, the second part of it, since [the city] is
living, emergent and resilient, I dont think we can design for a new operating system. But
I know something I have learned a lot about [is] the designing process. One of the main
things is that the designing process includes me, it includes you, it includes my existing
city, it includes my ideal city, it includes the eco-region, it includes even the history of the
people that have thought about these things before - thats one of the things I learned from
a breakout session about some of the things that we are wrestling with. Aristotle talked
about them; its not as if these are new questions for humanity. We are trying to move to,
its not [so much] new answers, [as it is] at least new ways to approaching the questions.
But there are a lot of thinkers that have gone before that Marilyn has built on, that all of us
are building on, and I got a new interest and respect for going back to some of those who
have been thinking about those questions for hundreds of years certainly, maybe
thousands. Thats another thing that I have learned, the resources that are available to us
in history.
David: Thank you very much for that Alia, I would like to move to George Por with the
same question. George - this is a reminder for everyone - is representative of the silent
artist generation and business and systems. So George, again the same two questions:
what have you learned about working for the planet of cities as we work in our cities on
the planet, and when we think of the city as a living, emergent, resilient system how does
it impact the design of -versus the design for - a new operating system?
George Por: Well I know the luck just by being in conversation with Marilyn, Cherie,
Alia and others, and what I am learning and I keep learning as Cherie and others said, that
the operating system lives in me, inside us, and it is also in the inter-subjective space,
between us and inter-objective space between the organizations, institutions. And I would
think that the operating system inside each of us may not necessarily be the same as the
operating system currently held by city governments and city developers. The question is:
how would the new operating system for 2.0 be designed, or can it be designed?
According to Wikipedia, an operating system is a collection of software that manages
computer hardware resources, and provides common services for computer programs. If I
take this metaphor for the city, and I imagine that the operating system of City 2.0 will be
not a collection of software, or that it can have a software component, but more like a
collection of protocols, social protocols, optimized for increasing environmental
sustainability, economic thriveability, quality of life and city services. The operating
system meets those objectives by enabling the boosting of the citys collective intelligence,
and that can be accomplished by increasing the level of communication and
connectedness within, of course, the four quadrants occupied by citizens, city employees,
private sectors (including social enterprises) and civil society organizations. I believe the
new operating system can be designed in co-creative dialogues among the four quadrants.
In other words where a community can design an operating system for itself, the best that
integral meshworkers can do is designing and creating the life conditions for such
conversations to take place, and then maybe facilitating those conversations. That is what
I see about the operating system; its only the stakeholders themselves that can design an
operating system for their collective life, but the meshworkers and facilitators can [serve
it by] creating the life conditions for those conversations to take place. I could talk more
about what those life conditions are, but I am aware and conscious of the time, so I will
just keep it to this at this moment.
David: Thank you George. I would like to go to our second question now and go back to
Amy. Again to remind everyone, Amy is representative of the Gen Y generation, and of
government as well. Amy, the question here that we have is: how do all the concepts
presented in the conference - so the intelligences, the integral ideas, the map of the four
city voices, the notion of Gaia's reflective organ, and other concepts - how do they support,
enrich, encourage and inspire yourself, inspire me, to help my city move forward in its
own 2.0 version?
Amy: David is it ok if we come back to me later on this question?
David: Oh for sure, lets move to Cherie and again Cherie same question, representing Gen
X from a citizen perspective.
Cherie: I think there [are] a few things. So the first differentiator around this context is the
fact that we are looking at intelligencesperiod. So even the idea of it - what is an
intelligence? Looking at intelligences is different than looking at behavior; its different
than looking at data, its different than looking at trends. It is intelligences. So when we
even start to ask that question we are beginning to drill down into the source. What is the
source of where cities come from and where they emerge out of? As we have been able to
draw upon lots of research that has been done - and there [are] lots of different kinds of
intelligences out there - in fact we say we live in an intelligent universe - and so we are
actually swimming in this intelligence field.
Part of the challenge in doing a City 2.0 from an intelligence point of view is being able to
differentiate what those are, to be able to work with them, weave them together and
understand that we are not trying to change behavior, but we are actually looking at what
are the intelligences - which is our way of thinking, which are different approaches
through our capacity to recognize patterns. Seeing patterns, recognizing them, replicating
them, changing them, evolving them, so were actually operating at a different level. So its
a challenge.
And then were applying what we are calling an integral intelligence, which means we are
actually wanting to see the parts and the wholes, which, in and of itself, represents a huge
advancement in how we even start looking at the city, or any of our problems. Because if
you actually look at the [issues], and I listen to this, I listen to the discourse that happens
on most of the media stations, and we suffer from a lot of partiality when we are trying to
present points of view.
In this conference, the fact that we are trying to work with intelligences themselves, and
we are working with integral intelligences as well, we want to see the whole of it. We had
Marilyn and worked with her to design a conference that used intelligence to like - can
we actually get a whole presented here, and the parts in some sequence or order that
would make it easier for us to see the whole?
We are doing that even in this particular conversation where we have four different
people that we are calling voices, but they are four points of view that we look at as
quadrants that are representing four different generational places as well, and four
different cities - I think we are in two different continents, three different countries. How
do you present all of that, make sense of it and have everybody in a whole? This is the
intelligences that were working with.
We are challenging everyone that is listening to this to look at those intelligences, rather
than the behaviors that were doing, or the data that were presenting, or the charts and
graphs. So I use this and I applied it to my own world, and since I am swimming in this, I
went out last night, having been four weeks into this conference, went out to a venue and
an event that was called Unite DC, which is self-organizing intelligences. These are
citizen groups, a lot of them technologists that are already working on: how do I take what
I know and can do, and put it for the betterment of the city? They are organizing
themselves. They put in this event called Unite DC; they have a process now where
everybody gets 5 minutes and 20 slides to talk about something they think is interesting
and will engage the rest of the community. I go to these events and now I am looking at
not just what they are saying, but what kind of intelligence is represented in this room,
and what might I be able to offer in terms of the intelligence that is needed for this? Well
there are several of these things. Well I come out of this conference saying, wow, you
know, 5 minutes, 20 slides - how I could show up in different cities around the world or at
least even in my own city and ignite 5 minutes on City 2.0 operating system that is
engaging, that co-operates in this self-organizing, that is already happening in our cities?
[What] is one thing I can do that will help push the agenda forward?

David: Thats fantastic Cherie and actually I just want to connect to your story. There is
something that I know is held in Edmonton and around the world and maybe this is what
you were referring too - its called Petchakutcha and its a presentation style where you
have 20 slides and 20 seconds per slide and as you start off the slides are moving forward
automatically and you need to be able to respond and of course present in that timeframe.
And there are rules around the images that you can use and what not. I attended a
previous session and have presented at them in the past and it was 1200-1300 people
there and to look at the intelligences, it would be fascinating to ask these kinds of
questions and be able to pose these ideas. How to do that with everyone in attendance and
as youre saying to really light a fire as to what collective intelligence actually means and
just understanding what people are saying, really inspired by what you said.
Moving forward here, thank you very much for that Cherie, and moving to Alia and just to
again remind everyone. Alia is representative of not-for-profit voice and the boomer
generation - so Alia how do all these concepts presented in the conference, how do they
support, enrich and encourage yourself to inspire yourself to move your city forward to its
new vision of City 2.0?
Alia: Well I must say before this conference I really didnt have any interest in improving
my city at all, except for answering a questionnaire here and there. And [I can] just
underline everything that Cherie said. So good - I can say some different things then. The
framework, the concepts presented in the conference, helped me to have a framework.
And what a framework does is generate questions. It gives me new questions to ask. Some
of those by asking I will get to useful answers, some of them by asking I will realize that
there are simply questions to live in and serve from without arriving at any answers, the
usefulness is living in the question. One of the unexpected things that has happened in the
conference, is the business around storytelling and it just got illustrated right there in the
conversation. Of course I knew the importance of stories, that human beings are
storytelling social creatures but somehow I hadnt connected it to the notion of improving
cities and how powerful the stories are. But when you hear the stories about projects and
groups and community gardens, when you hear the specifics, that is really inspiring and
empowering, its like oh I could do that! That is one of the unexpected take-aways.
David: Thank you Alia, it reminds me of some of the stories here in Edmonton that are just
starting to unfold in Edmonton, Albertas history and it goes back about ten thousand
years and to start to understand how people have gathered here for so long and the
significance of it you start to see the connections back in your current life in what you can
see for the future. And I agree with you - so much [of] it really inspires when you hear
these things. You feel proud inside, you feel a connection with the space that youre within.
Thank you very much for highlighting.
Moving forward to George, so again to remind our audience George is representing the
silent artist generation and business systems perspective, so again George how do you see
all the concepts presented in the concepts coming all together to support and enrich and
to inspire yourself to move ahead to a new version for your city.
George: I think of the integral framework of the twelve intelligences.
David: I think we have dropped off [the internet link] with George. Why dont we move
back up with Amy, are you able to move forward with that question now?
Amy: Yes sure.
David: Ok, just to recap, oh please go ahead.
Amy: Well for me I wasnt at all familiar with the integral theory before meeting the
conference design frame, but I can comment on my impression of it and how its a useful
way of explaining the city. I think the integral map is a map to see the world, and in this
case the city, from various perspectives, so when you sit in different quadrants you can get
an entirely different reading or understanding of this place, and if youre comfortable with
that, then you can understand the relationships between the four quadrants. We have
been doing all four because they are tetra-arising. So I am going to approach this question
from [the point of view of] a recent architecture graduate whose interest is in regenerative
design. So I think this integral map allows us to see that we are Gaias reflective organ
because it allows us to see the city as a nest of systems that have gradually become more
nested and complex. I think its really a question of understanding fractals and
relationships and certainly different scales. So then we can begin to see that humans are
Gaias cells and cities are its organs. Understanding these four quadrants will only make us
better designers because we can understand culture and larger social and ecological
contexts and design more intelligently. I think similarly by understanding the four [sets of]
intelligences and the four different voices of the city will also only enrich our work as
designers, architects and planners. What I can personally take from learning all these
concepts during the conference over the last four weeks is really about taking a more
global and all encompassing, inspired approach to move us forward.
David: Well thank you very much Amy and I see that George has joined us back as well. I
find that for myself as well Amy, just connecting in with what you were saying about
Marilyns work and understanding this in greater detail, this conference for myself
personally over the past four weeks has really connected some dots for me. Its made
some things, some concepts that were really concepts that were understood, but its
making them a lot more real actually listening to the stories that are being told in
connection to them and going ahh I can see how I fit and the things that I do contribute to
what were all talking about.
So George thank you for coming back online, the question that we had before you dropped
off: how do all the concepts presented in the conference support and enrich, encourage
and inspire yourself to move forward for your own city towards its vision.
George: Thats a very timely question. I just got an email asking some people who are
working on participatory budgeting and they say that participation without the
redistribution of power is a very frustrating process for them. When I am looking at issues
through the 12 intelligences as lenses then I do [grasp] that looking through those lenses
we can see new possibilities. New possibilities for opening, for sensing, for meaning
making.
So lets take two salient examples and their relationships, the Inner intelligence and the
Meshwork intelligence. Our Inner intelligence asks and enables us to pay attention to what
we pay attention [to] and be present to our interior experience. Thats what makes us not
only homo sapiens but homo sapien sapiens - that is the human being who is conscious
that he or she is conscious. For the City 2.0 to awaken its collective intelligence, it needs to
become aware and honor the culture and aspirations of the citizens, administrators, NGOs,
developers all who make up the city. That can happen only by activating Meshworking
intelligence and building communication bridges across silos, stovepipes and solitudes, as
Marilyn so eloquently expressed the evolutionary task in her book. So to me its about
destroying the last Berlin Walls between the city as we know it, and City 2.0. That is what I
have a lot of passion for - to just remove all the barriers that currently separates the silos,
the stovepipes, and solitudes instead of communities.
David: Thank you George, and to summarize what you said, I really took away the
awakening consciousness and awareness that you are referring to and capturing the
aspirations of everybody in a way that bridges the dialogue. People are coming together
and actually sharing that information rather than running in silos, if you will. Thank you
very much for that actually.
I would like to move to our third question that we have for our group and actually jump
back up to Cherie, if I may, Cherie. The third question is: what strategies e.g., inquiry,
meshworking, navigating, help you to design cities to prosper?
Cherie: I come at this, again, because I have been in the inquiry of this for quite a while, in
doing my own understanding of it thats informed by as many things that make sense to
me. I dont know that I can design a city. What I would say though is I can design my life
inside of a city that actually incorporates the context of what I think the whole of a city is.
Its probably best expressed within the intention of the conference itself, with the inquiry
of how do we work in, on, and as the city? And so six months ago I was, for sure, in no-
mans land, I had no idea of what it meant to be in, on and as the city, so I have used that as
a context within just making decisions about my own life. And the inquiry of that helps me
align and choose and take next steps around how do I live a life that is within that context?
In, on and as? As I said, part of it in my own navigating had me three years ago actually
asking what kind of a community do I want to be a part of? And my first answer after
several experimentations in that, was that I wasnt actually in the community that I
needed to be in. I needed to be in a different community. There was another place that was
calling me, so the first instance of even navigating was, where am I supposed to be? Which
city or place actually needs the things that I have to offer? So actually I sold everything and
uprooted myself and went to another place, and in that context was actually starting to -
and I mean it was the first time I had even lived in a city - I had been always in the suburbs.
I plonked myself down in the centre of a city, and had to use intelligences of connecting
with others, like asking, What is this city? How does it operate? Who is here? Where do
they live? And I would spend time just out scanning, just walking to get a sense and a feel
for just what is it to be in, on and as the city. I did some work there, and then following
Navigation [intelligence] and [asking] what is next? I have actually been called back to the
East Coast, saying No, there is something here for me here, you know, so I am doing
work here looking at the eco-regionm not even just the city - it has actually grown from
where I thought it was going to be Baltimore.
But this conference now has helped me expand out. Its not even just Baltimore - it is the
Baltimore-Washington eco-region that I am starting to look at now which includes two
major cities and the place that I am actually in - physically in - which is the space in
between both of them. There is a community here that I think, its next emergent potential
is to own its own identity and a new story of being in between, the center between
Baltimore and Washington. I am using the intelligences and the strategies for creating my
own life inside of this context, that says I need all three - in, on, and as - the city which
gives even a new perspective. And I actually make choices that support that - that
guidance that I get from that inquiry.
David: This will maybe show my demographic, but that is really cool! I just think of that as
a true self-awareness of what is happening and being present and noticing what is really
happening around you and listening to those voices to yourself, to the path, the direction
that youre taking. That is a very profound thing, so that is really seriously very cool.
Thank you very much for sharing that Cherie.
I would like to move to George, with the same question. George if I may, [ask] again: what
strategies: inquiry, meshworking and navigating have helped you in designing cities to
prosper?
George: Well the strategy that I have been using for many different contexts successfully,
that I recommend - that is having representatives of the four quadrants to co-initiate their
new vision for the city, and the citys contribution to the wellbeing of each part of itself
and of the planet, [to] form a collaborative learning expedition. Thats what I refer to;
thats the specific strategy that I have been working with. The collaborative learning
expedition to discover what will it take to realize that vision, including how to release the
inherent human, communal and organizational creativity which will be needed to make it
so.
So a learning expedition is a collaborative action inquiry that includes special focus
learning teams moving into different unchartered territories simultaneously and bringing
back the bounty, [the] discoveries to the base camp - lets say [in] quarterly face to face
gatherings of the expedition - and have the expedition logged. Records of the learning
keep evolving through their online interactions between the base camps. This will require
living laboratories for open innovation and enhancing the citys collective intelligence. In
fact it is the base camps of the learning expedition [that] can act as the living laboratories,
so there is a lot more to say about it. Again I just want to keep it short for now.
David: Well thank you George, maybe I can, if its OK Alia, pull you in on this conversation
and youve mentioned you have got a lot of learning going [on] through this whole
conference as well. What have you seen in terms of what you have learned over the past
few weeks in terms of what could help you design your City 2.0?
Alia: What I have learned is that I first need to design the designing process, and I think
that thats why what George has been talking about is so exciting for me. Thats the
direction I am going to be moving in, in my immediate future. Its kind of that, thats a
theme, thats in everything that has been said here: consciousness about what we are
doing and I think that the way we go about designing the designing process is going to
determine what emerges out the other end of the pipeline. There is designing the
designing process, there is the designing process, there is the design and then there is
where we live. And I think that more careful attention, more consciousness in and about
the process of designing our designing is just, emerged as much more important than I
ever realized.
David: Thank you Alia, and it is something that has struck me as well of the importance of
designing space and doing it in a very conscious way and the impact that it actually has on
our day to day lives. Yeah, its very significant.
How about Amy, your thoughts on what you have heard so far, with that question: over
the last four weeks the strategies you have heard in designing cities to prosper what do
you think would work?
Amy: Well, I dont have much to add because I absolutely agree with what Alia just said,
its about designing a new design process. The only other things I would like to add is the
importance of getting engaged and creating the spaces for dialogue, and also the
importance of trans-disciplinary change - so not just working as a team of designers but
collaborating with ecologists and hydrologists and [in our class, landscape architects,
psychologists and sociologists, etc.].
Alia: Oh I would like to jump in again. This is Alia, I just thought of something else that has
emerged into my awareness. The interconnectedness of all these little nodes, I call them,
network nodes around the world, who are interested in upgrading in various ways,
including the cities. Talk about meshwork, the importance of not siloing - to use the jargon
term that happens within cities - but that can happen as were thinking about my city and
that city, and it can happen in terms of my design and your design or my process and your
process. But the crucial importance of the collective intelligence, if you will, having
broader and broader [impact] - I think we talked about that at the beginning. Marilyn and
Brett talked about that somewhere today, the notion of making that collective intelligence
as my group of four, then our realization that we are amongst other groups that are
focusing on the same things and those are among other groups, so it is all fractal. We
would do well in my view with not only respect to the questioning that has been done in
history, not the pseudo-counting but the questions that human beings have been asking
for a long time. So to look outwards from our present as well as back into history and then
to look forward too and to be informed by our future, so well get to that in a minute I
hope.
David: Yes we will actually and thats a fabulous transition Alia to our next question, and
why dont I start this one off with George? The question that we have for you George is:
how does our evolutionary power source or city spirit accelerate these new possibilities
that were talking about for the human hive or cities at this time, at this moment in time,
right now?
George: Well the spirit of City 2.0 when embodied in our behavior, it can really accelerate
the transition to Civilization 2.0. That transition is a big issue because what I notice when I
am looking around society, reading the papers, watching the news, what I am becoming
increasingly aware of is, that everything is getting worse and worse and better and better
at the same time. The voices of evolution and the voices of devolution, fragmentation and
integration are both accelerating at the same time and this is really a sure recipe for chaos.
Chaos not necessarily as a bad thing, but just how we are going to go through it and how
we come out on the other end? A lot hinges on it and thats where the spirit of 2.0 when
embodied in our behavior will help us to move the flow from transition to Civilization 2.0.
That can be an irrepressible outcome when more and more of us live by the three-fold
master principles: take care of yourself, take care of each other and take care of this place.
Taking care of myself includes becoming conscious of and honoring my highest
aspirations in how I live my life. And taking care of each other means recognizing that, I
am because you are, and attending your wellbeing is as important to me for me as my own.
Finally taking care of this place means to me, extending our sense of self to global capacity,
to sense think and act from the place of, and as the city, or even from the biggest context
for the common good that we can put our arms around. So thats what I see as the
essential contribution of the evolutionary power source and the spirit of City 2.0, what it
can do for the human hive.
David: Its a connection back then George as you say to yourself, each other and this place
and the consciousness that we all bring to that and how we take care of each other and
this place that we are all within. I think there is so many aspects of that, that we could
apply right across the board. Fantastic, thank you for sharing that again.
Moving then to Amy, how about yourself Amy, how does our evolutionary power source
or city spirit accelerate these new possibilities?
Amy: For me the answer to this connection lies in the connection to Inner and Outer
intelligence and that is something we heard a lot about in the conference. And in terms of
the inner self it is very complex - we can have an inner activist, an inner rebel, an inner
child and a higher self, and we learned in the conference that we need to access potential
individually in order to access potential collectively. Its important to manage personal
energy and wellbeing. I heard about different ways people are doing this; a lot of people
mentioned meditating or spending time in nature where the energy of the earth is closer
to the energy of the body. This made me think about the importance of nature within the
city, and I think Japanese cities are a great example of this because they strike the balance
of the hustle and bustle of the city with shrines and temples and beautiful contemplative
gardens.
Another thing that I was thinking about was the role of technology and how it relates to
Inner and Outer intelligences. There is no doubt that technology like this on a global scale
that doesnt paradoxically isolate us [can help us], and how does that impact the
evolutionary power source? Then sort of echoing what George just said, I really resonated
with another thing Marilyn said which is your greatest joy must match the worlds
greatest need - so to me that really sums up the union between the Inner and Outer
intelligences. It is also taking care of yourself, each other and this place.
David: Thank you Amy, I loved the connection in terms of the examples that you were
using of other cities around the world that have been able to strike a balance in this - as
you suggested Japanese cities - and that balance between Inner and Outer that we all have
as well. Thank you for that.
Moving to Cherie, similar question of course: how does our evolutionary power source or
city spirit accelerate new possibilities for the human hive or cities at this time?
Cherie: This question is probably a more difficult one for me to answer because I am still
in the inquiry of it. But that doesnt mean I cant say anything about it. I think there are
two things that I want to point to, in answering this question. One is I think there is a big
challenge actually connecting to the power source. I just think there is a huge amount of
quality of effort that is going to be required to dig deep enough to get to the source to
remove the stuff that doesnt work, to let things die off, to actually be connected to
whatever we might determine that power source is. At a minimum I know its connecting
to my own source; it has taken me a good focused intentional fifteen years to connect to
my own power source, and I am in the process now to connect to Gaia herself, and a lot of
that is through Marilyn, of really being able to connect to our host environment, which is
Gaia. And then thats been helped by the people that have shown up in this conference. So
really starting to get a sense of what the collective power source is to this and having all
three of those working together is part of my answer. You know I have got to be connected
to my own source, I have got to be connected to Gaia, and connected to the collective
source as well - and that is no small feat, so I will continue that.
That is the first point I want to make and then in an effort to do that, the other place I
would point to is something that is trying to be designed even into this call and its
something that got pointed to a bit, but I think there is a next level to go to in this inquiry
around how to design an operating system for the city. And that is to see the generative
process, the generative design that nature has already put forth. The best model and the
best view that we have in that is how generations have formed and shaped and have done
the work already. I think to connect to the evolutionary source of the city is, I think, we
will start to understand what are the generational dynamics, confluences, constellating,
movements, changes that are shaped because one generation is formed out of the previous
generations. That is a different mindset, that is a different way of being in the world that
fits into the whole in the whole process in a unique and archetypal way - which is why we
have introduced, each of us, as representing a different generational lens, is because at this
particular stage in our evolution and in the cultural milieu and mood that we are in, if we
are just able to understand the generational dynamics of it I think we would be able to
usher forth more of what will naturally happen.
That is the generation of the artists being in their late stage of life, artistry, ultra wisdom,
and were actually breaking the model a little bit because there is more of them that are
around than there has ever been. The boomers now that are moving out of their
leadership into their elderhood are being called forth in a new way, and Gen X are moving
into their midlife out of their early adulthood are being called into leadership. Millennials
are moving from childhood into their young adulthood, into a whole new position, as we
are learning to take care of the new children, the artist generation again.
Then if we could just facilitate the movement of all of those generations through their life
course into the mindset that theyre naturally wanting to go to and be in relationship with
each other - in that we are perfectly formed to be able to meet the challenges that are
before us. And I think there is capacity to explore in mapping that out and understanding
that better. And I think probably as much of the flow as were seeing in this conversation
and the voices that we are trying to put on the table its not necessarily an easy one to
understand, corral, facilitate, design around, understand, but it is here and I dont think we
have to work that hard to leverage that particular dynamic. So that is the evolutionary
power source that I would point to... the second one.
David: Thank you Cherie for that, and what comes to mind is the ultimate in succession
planning. There is an integration between all generations, the energy, the knowledge, the
wisdom, being shared as people go through different stages of their lives being able to
share those experiences with each other. I am actually being reminded of a very brief story
of participating and being a part of some indigenous spiritual work that I am involved with
and being involved in the indigenous community. And there is very much an intentional
design, an intentional process in which youth and children move into teenage-hood, who
move into adulthood, who move into eldership. There is a whole way of connecting and
respecting each generation going through that, and it just strikes me as something that
you were describing as something that is being experienced but perhaps it is not as
obvious to everyone around to what is happening.
Cherie: Well let me give you an example, because since Marilyn actually is familiar [with
it] and she and I have done a lot of work around the generational constellations, if it had
been anyone else trying to put this together, the Gen X voice wouldnt have been at the
table, which is where I am at. The typical way it is looked at is that this generation as an
archetype is looked over, so because Marilyn actually understands and values it and she
has designed to make sure that everybody [shows up]... all the voices are here! That in
itself is different and actually helps to facilitate [emergence]. So if were to understand, as
Gen Xers are moving into leadership positions, and rather than having to scrape and fight
and find their own little niche in the larger picture as most of us had to do, if we were to
understand it from the elders that came in ahh lets get out of the way, lets make room
for them, lets understand, that its now their time to lead us through this - and we have
actually shaped them to be able to lead us through because they can see, and understand
and have a skill set that others dont have, because we have lived the life course that we
have lived.
Just as the millennials now that are coming up, who are not ready yet for leadership are
seeing that, but then they have a huge energy and this radical optimism that we are talking
about in this conference is going to come from the millennial generation, because that is
the way that they have been raised. That is the way they cycle around this generational
patterning that we have been able to go back, trace back to, at least five hundred years ago,
we can trace back the patterning of this. You put those people in the right places in the
right times knowing that they are going to be the army the actual foot soldiers in this war
of consciousness, Gen X is going to lead it. The boomers with the thought leaders from the
silent/ artist generation are going to create the vision and the direction that tell us where
to go, Gen Xers are going to figure out how to get there and then we will create the paths
for the Millennials. [They] can then actually try out this path for us. It is a lot easier
[thinking and doing it this way], and if we dont understand that it is going to be a lot
harder - its going to be a push - because were going to have blockages like we have had,
were just not going to get the movement that we need. And we have it here in this
conference is my point.
David: And it is actually so inspiring what you say, and Ill say it in my own words:
appreciation of the gifts that we all bring and its a recognition and integration of those
gifts right across, and if we are able to connect each one of these pieces, wow.. the cities
that we could build! I would like to move actually to Alia, and ask Alia the same question
from your perspective now (representing the great connection here of representing the
boomer and safety and not-for-profit space). How do you see the evolutionary power
source or city spirit accelerate new possibilities within our cities at this time?
Alia: First I am not quite sure I qualify as a boomer, and I think I am older than George so I
am honored to be considered so much younger than I am, but for those who wonder about
age, I am seventy three and I feel like I am every age, every age indeed.
I kind of wanted to end with a contemplation of the Master Code, circles of care. One of the
things that I have learned in this conference and one of the things that interests me that I
think we have all been talking about is the quality of life, the quality of consciousness,
quality of our relationships, our - I was going to say inseparable - but they are separable -
they are certainly interrelated. As part of the folks that were helping to put on this
conference I frequently experienced too little [self-care] and working when I would rather
be outside, that sort of thing. And so self-care became an issue. But then I noticed that
when the inevitable personal challenges, when somebody had ideas doing things one way
and somebody else had ideas doing things another way, and there were tensions, it
became very clear to me, and it became a source of self-care, that the quality of the way we
were interacting was far more important than the decisions that we made. It is right here
right now; its not designing for the future; this is it, how are we interacting right now. Do
we have good will, do we have consciousness, do we have humility, do we have patience?
That is really it, and I think that is the basis from which we can include place. So many
people are ignoring place and they are ignoring self and others; so many people are
working on others and they are ignoring self and place; so many people are working on
self and not paying much attention to others and place. It is the synthesis, it is the unity of
all those, that I think the Master Code is pointing to, and to me the term evolutionary
power source is simply the power of creation, that everything exists rather than nothing
existing. As I think its through our conscious connection, without our conscious
realization of that, as our place, ourselves and others, that the Master Code comes into its
full embodiment in our cities and everywhere.
David: Thank you for that Alia. I find that so profound - the self-reflection of everything
that we have been talking about and being conscious, being present and noticing being
present in yourself and what is happening around you, the interactions that you have with
each other and the place in which you live. And to notice we interchange the word
neighborhood with the word community and I think [neighborhoods, and communities
and city hall need to] share this and actually truly sit down and listen to each other [so]
that we can shape the city, the place, wherever were at, whatever that is, we can shape it
in a direction that feels right - it feels human to be there. Thank you very much for that.
I would like to ask the question: what are you ready to do next?
Amy: In an immediate sense, I think that we should continue the dialogue of the
conference, and I know that that is the plan. We have been doing harvesting and there is
going to be a lot that that continues to go on, so I hope to be a part of that. I am going to
have to think a little bit harder outside of the sphere of the conference and how I am going
to take what I have learned and apply it, but I am sure there will be lots of great ways.
David: Lets go round in the circle and well come back to you Amy as we go through,
Cherie what are you personally ready to do next?
Cherie: I could probably spend the next week talking to you about that, because just about
everything I do has some, connection back to this project in some way, so I can pick one. I
think we are just getting started with the Integral City Collective 2.0 - all of the different
naming conventions for things that are starting to emerge out of this. So I am with this for
the ride, so wherever there is energy to take what we have started here, I am certainly
going to be a part of it. We have the e-lab specifically, how do we take all of this content,
how do we organize it, how do we make it digestible, how do we make it useable, how
does it get re-purposed, re-presented and how do we take the next level, next wadi, if you
will, and expand out? [Who are] the next wave of people that are ready to embrace this
context and make it more accessible and include more people in it?
David: Thank you for sharing that, and to be able to build on the momentum that has been
created by this beautiful space that Marilyn has been able to host for all of us, and I know
all of the different things that have had to come together and to think about how many
calls there have been and the number of people that have had to be organized and all the
volunteers to make this all happen, it is pretty incredible, to build on this is a must do. We
cant sit back with this - something has been opened here and we need to continue to
explore this. Thank you Cherie. Alia what are you willing to do next?
Alia: What Cherie said (laughs)... well I can add a little more - while it has been a lot of
time and effort, I have had a blast here. This is the most conscious group of people in a
working setting that I have run across yet - so I am planning to hang out here, and weve
definitely got something. This conference is just a phase in a very long process, and I
would like to help wherever it wants to go next. I have a number of ministries - this is one
of them, I guess one of my next steps is to ask could I be doing more for the city that is my
place here? I do things with people within the city, I have other more local ministries, but I
guess I am still asking myself some hard questions about [that] and the answer might be:
no its fine - but at least I am going to ask the question, is there more I could be doing for
my place?
David: Yeah isnt that an amazing question to reflect on what are we doing in our lives
and our place, how can we help our place to continue to grow and thrive and in that the
planet, everything else growing and thriving? George moving to yourself: what are you
ready to do next?
George: Well I am a boy of the sixties, so I belong to that generation that wanted to change
the world, and many of us still do - but it is not as much about changing, but noticing how
the world is changing and then inserting my energies at the appropriate place. What is
appropriate to me? Well I want to give away my gifts with highest impact, and the only
way I can get that or the best way I can do that, is if I serve those who serve the most. That
means seeking out evolutionary leaders who have a track record of capabilities and see
how my talents, how I can amplify their work. That is what has brought me to Marilyns
work, that is what brought me to the work of a couple of other thought leaders and what I
see as part of my contribution is to help building community and amplify the collective
intelligence.
I learned a lot about, during the last couple of decades about how to design and host
virtual communities, knowledge gardens, all those things that help bringing forth
collective genius in groups of any skills, so that is what I continue to do. And maybe what I
think Cherie was talking about is really the big task of our generation, is getting out of the
way. More like doing mentoring, advising and also learning in the process;
intergenerational learning is not only learning between two or more generations, thats
from the perspective of me as an individual and somebody else that is younger or older,
but if I am thinking from more of a birds-eye view, what is happening in intergenerational
learning is evolutionary - using different capabilities, different cognitive gifts of younger
and older folks. For example, what I enjoy learning with and from younger people is that
they are picking up things much faster than I do, and thats just how it is. And I believe that
I can provide sometimes broader perspectives that they may need, so that is what I
continue doing in the next months and years - who knows how long?
David: Hopefully a long time. We need your mentorship and eldership in this world
George; we need your voice to guide us through this. Thank you very much for that. I
would like to circle back now to Amy, do you have any final comments Amy in regards to
what are you ready to do next.
Amy: I was just thinking as everyone went around in a circle how much I enjoy being a
part of this dialogue, because usually I like to take a backstage role and listen to the talks.
But actually I surprised myself in really enjoying this conversation and just speaking and
listening. So what I am ready to do next is just to carry on with the question, what if,
[I/we] carry on with the forum and develop a YouTube channel, and something to just
keep participating in an active way, that is what I am ready to do next.
David: To keep the momentum going.
Cherie: Yeah well so we all agree on that one.
David: Eric if I could perhaps bring you in. You wanted to make a comment or perhaps
frame a conversation for everyone?
Eric: Just to add one quick framing comment on all of this is that we talk so much about
design today and notions of a Master Code that I think its important to perhaps point out
that we are talking about something that is a different kind of movement than [where] one
individual has it figured out as the architect in chief, or that it is somehow residing in an
individual. I think of the big picture frame of the clash of the twentieth century between
central planning, for instance, and free markets. That thesis and antithesis and synthesis,
but what we are talking about in design is something that is much more organic and fluid.
Its not so much housed in an individual, but it is in the collective intelligence and what
were talking about is how do we create the right conditions to support the emergence of
something new? How do we draw in the new, upcoming generations that see things with a
different set of eyes?
So it is the paradox of designing very consciously and intentionally and at the same time
holding a humility about the larger unfolding of this evolutionary process, that we dont
really know how it goes, that we serve that and we endeavor to do that to the highest of
our capacity. And at the same time there is a letting go, and that we dont know exactly
how it is going to unfold. I think its a new way of thinking and that to me is the most
valuable contribution of what we have been exploring in this session and the conference
as a whole.
So thank you for that.

1

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Speakeis: Naiilyn Bamilton, Baviu Fabei, Beth Sanueis, Eiic Tioth
Septembei 27, 2u12

?3@ A73&%() B7#&%,6) is a city evolutionist, activist, authoi, anu
ieseaichei. She is Founuei of Integial City Neshwoiks Inc. anu authoi of
!"#$%&'( *+#,- ./0(1#+0"'&, !"#$((+%$"2$3 40& #5$ 617'" 6+/$. Naiilyn
woiks with cities, eco-iegions, communities of piactice anu stuuents to
uesign thiiving habitats foi the human hive. She engages multiple
stakeholueis to integiate spiiitual, social, economic, enviionmental anu
cultuial capitals that emeige new human capacity. Naiilyn enables cities anu eco-iegions
to co-cieate the conuitions foi cities to be as iesilient foi humans as the beehive is foi bees.
Seiving inteinationally, Naiilyn iswas Chaitei Integial Institute Nembei; Founuei,
Centei foi Buman Emeigence Canaua; Chaitei }uioi ulobe Sustainable City Awaius;
Chaitei Canauian Sustainability Piofessional. Naiilyn is Faculty at Royal Roaus 0niveisity,
0niveisity of victoiia, anu lectuiei at 0niveisity of Biitish Columbia, Simon Fiasei
0niveisity, }FK 0niveisity, Califoinia Institute of Integial Stuuies, Auizes uiauuate School,
0niveisity of 0slo anu the 0niveisity of Wageningen.
?75&= C7D-3 is Piesiuent anu CE0 of visiv Incoipoiateu, a management
consulting fiim. Be is the foimei Executive Biiectoi of Enteipiise
Stiategic Nanagement at the City of Eumonton, Canaua, wheie he
uevelopeu an integiateu set of stiategic uocuments to guiue city uecision-
making: 85$ 9', :5$';< 85$ 9', 9$ =&$$"< 85$ 9', 9$ >+/$< 85$ 9',
9$ =&0?< anu 85$ 9', 9$ @0/$. Baviu is iunning foi municipal election
this fall.

E-,< :7)=-30 NCIP, RPP (Albeita), NCIP (Canaua) is Piesiuent of
P0P0L0S Community Planning Inc., in Eumonton, Canaua. Beth woiks
acioss Canaua with goveinment, business anu community oiganizations
who stiive to cieate cities that seive citizens well, anu citizens that seive
cities well. Beth is shepheiuing city uecision-making into a new eia
wheie the following aie fiont anu centei: piagmatic puipose, community
health, fiscal anu economic sustainability, enviionmental iesponsibility, cultuial
iesponsibility anu public conveisation. Beth is piesiuent of the Albeita Piofessional
Planneis Institute anu is a coipoiate auvisoi to the NcBonalu Sustainability uioup, Inc.
She is co-founuei of the Centei foi Buman Emeigence Canaua anu a membei of the
Integial City auvisoiy boaiu. While looking foi a publishei, Beth is blogging hei book, A$3#
*+#,- 85$ 617'" B&+/$ #0 85&+/$ +" *+#+$3. Beth is seiving as Piogiam Co-Besignei,
Inteiviewei anu Baivestei of the Integial City Expo anu eLab.
43&. F36,< is a seasoneu facilitatoi of ueep gioup piocesses within
teleconfeience settings. Be seiveu in the iole of Naestio Confeience
host uuiing the month-long Integial City Expo anu eLab. Eiic has an
enuuiing passion foi the confeience themes of sustainability, iesilience,
anu emeigence. Be is committeu to the uevelopment of capacities foi
highei oiuei collective intelligence anu laige-scale systems change. As an instigatoi of
self-oiganizeu viitual gatheiings within the Integial-Evolutionaiy woiluspace, he has
hosteu hunuieus of calls builuing online community foi the puipose of sensing into the
euges of possibility. In the fall of 2u12, Eiic will be launching his own seiies of
Evolutionaiy Engagements to exploie the emeigence of new foims of Integial political
uiscouise anu piactice.
A73&%() B7#&%,6)G The intiouuctions foi this session take me back to a time two yeais
ago when Baviu anu I weie sitting besiue each othei at a confeience in Eumonton. I think
it was actually maybe this time of yeai, that it was a beautiful time to go foi a walk. It was
a way to stait to ielate to the city that both you, Baviu, anu Beth aie locateu in, anu wheie
I actually have many family ioots. Something that has uiawn the foui of us togethei as
inteivieweis anu hosts on this whole confeience is the uesign iuea that we hau - that we
can actually look at the city thiough lenses that give us a whole new paiauigm foi the city.
0vei the last foui weeks, we staiteu by looking at a Planet 0f Cities - how oui Nothei
Eaith Is 0ui Notheiboaiu; anu then followeu that by thinking about what }ames Lovelock
calls us as uaia's Reflective 0igan - thinking that inuiviuuals aie actually cells in the oigan
which is the city. Anu that theie is a whole planet of cities that aie ieflective oigans of uaia,
anu we use the Integial City fiamewoik - the integial mouel - to think about how it has
Integial Intelligence Insiue.
In fact we thought not only how "It" has, but how "I, We, It anu Its" has integial
intelligences insiue. In the thiiu week we thought about how we coulu uevelop stiategies,
anu if we'ie looking at a new opeiating system foi the city, we thought about logic
piocessois |foi a new opeiating systemj. We neeueu to have stiategies that connecteu all
the uots. Finally, this week we've been looking at how an evolutionaiy powei pack can
actually amplify oui intelligences. As Eiic mentioneu in the intiouuction, oui exploiation
touay has been about what I've calleu the Nastei Coue of the city - how it is actually
nestleu into oui assumptions about a new opeiating system foi the city.
The Nastei Coue ieally just has thiee veiy simple piinciples to it: fiist, take caie of
youiself; seconu, take caie of each othei; anu thiiu, take caie of this place - city - planet.
Theie is an Evolutionaiy Intelligence that we have not lookeu at the paiticulai piinciples
of in the thiee uays of this week. I want to biing them out because I think they might open
up a ieally inteiesting uialogical space foi the foui of us.
The thiee piinciples of the Evolutionaiy Powei Souice - how uo we live this Nastei Coue -
involve these things. Aie you sitting uown. Bave you've got youi seatbelts on. Because the
fiist one is: "Expect the unexpecteu." This is haiking back to the fact that we'ie complex
auaptive systems, living in a univeise that has no guaiantees in it. We neeu to be able to
live with the unexpecteu.
The seconu piinciple is actually one that might give some people shiveis, because it says
"Pay attention to the iules." By the "iules," I mean how natuie cieates simple iules by
which systems actually get into the habit of living. These aie the kinus of iules that we
lookeu at when we lookeu at the iesilience cycle. Anothei way to think about these iules is
that they aie "piinciples." Theie weie thiee piinciples that we actually exploieu with all
the uesigneis in the confeience that ielateu to eveiy one of the intelligences. So when I say
"pay attention to the iules," I'm not talking about a iigiu set of authoiitaiian iules, but
iathei, pay attention to the iules that Natuie, that Life uses.
Then the thiiu piinciple of living the Nastei Coue I iuentifieu as: "Enable emeigence anu
iesilience." Bow uo we uo that. Actually by stietching ouiselves into tianscenuing anu
incluuing all the integial capacities that we have uiscoveieu so fai on the "nevei enuing
quest" of who we aie as human beings.
So that fiaming, thinking about the Nastei Coue, thinking about these piinciples that call
us to live in a woilu wheie theie aie no guaiantees, yet we have uiscoveieu is something
flowing thiough us as an Evolutionaiy Intelligence that we sense is full of iauical optimism.
I want to open up a uialogue space with the foui of us anu see wheie we can go with this.
So the fiist question I want to give to us all is, ?5$&$ 5'/$ ?$ $CD$&+$"2$; #5$ @'3#$& *0;$
'"; #5$3$ D&+"2+D($3 +" 01&3$(/$3< ;1&+"% #5$ 201&3$ 04 #5$ 20"4$&$"2$E Wheie have we
noticeu them in otheis. In the thought leaueis, in the uesigneis, in the piactitioneis anu
also the paiticipants (who have given us the questions anu inquiiies in bieakout
sessions). So - anybouy like to uive into that. Wheie have you expeiienceu the Nastei
Coue anu these piinciples uuiing the confeience.
43&. F36,<G I might jump on that fiist, with a sense of expecting the unexpecteu. I think in
the couise of S6 piogiams, in finuing out what all it takes to meet all of these |intelligences
anu piinciplesj, uiffeient inuiviuuals aie showing up (people that I haven't encounteieu
befoie), anu sensing into what aie the paiticulai gifts that they aie biinging, anu what aie
the syneigies when we come togethei in a live space. Because we may have some iueas of
questions anu uiiections to go, but ieally it is open space anu |the challenge wasj how to
holu both the intention of moving anu exploiing in ceitain uiiections. It seemeu to be
fiuitful anu at the same time, stepping back with a iauical humility of not knowing anu
wonueiing what might just happen that suipiises them, that suipiises me, that suipiises
all of us. Theie have been a numbei of occasions wheie we seemeu to uiop into a space
togethei that was not in the plan, that was not something that we pieueteimineu in any
way. But it's emeigent in the moment, anu I think what's been behinu |the expeiiencej
that is tiying to be ieceptive to the eneigy that's flowing, anu following that fiom moment
to moment anu seeing what's alive. What's wanting to come foiwaiu heie. Sometimes
these notions of an evolutionaiy powei souice - oi the evolutionaiy impulse - we can soit
of ieify them anu put them out theie in some way, but what is it to iecognize that in
ouiselves. To expeiience that fiom the insiue out - the subjective expeiience - anu
togethei, inteisubjective expeiience of coming alive that is juicy! You know we want to
move in this paiticulai uiiection, anu see what can come out of it. Let's suipiise ouiselves.
I love that place of aliveness that can come that way.
?75&= C-3D-3G Thank you Eiic. Builuing on what you saiu, the usual is to expect the
unexpecteu. I must aumit I wasn't too suie how an online confeience woulu connect with
eveiyone. I wasn't suie how you woulu shaie infoimation anu how people woulu feel
connecteu to the uialogue that was happening. I know foi myself on the veiy fiist call I
was pietty neivous anu thinking, okay how is this going to woik. Bow is it going to go.
But as we woikeu thiough |each uayj, a ieal ihythm ensueu, anu what was unexpecteu to
me weie the same expeiiences that I woulu have meeting all of you anu otheis. All
thiough the inteiviews we conuucteu in peison, I felt a similai bonu anu connection with
people going thiough the same piocess. Then what stiuck me in all the pages of notes of
the connections that weie being maue, was that it felt veiy ieal - it felt veiy piesent. It felt
that this was something that ieally can make a uiffeience anu go foiwaiu, anu that we
builu excitement aiounu it anu that we can't stop this uialogue. Anu foi me the expecting
the unexpecteu was ieally all about how poweiful this conveisation, anu all of these
conveisations thioughout the foui weeks, have been.
E-,< :7)=-30G Fiom my peispective, I will ieflect a bit on the Nastei Coue piece aiounu
"look aftei youiself." I iecognizeu in the week befoie the confeience began that I knew
something big was coming, anu my physical system neeueu time to piepaie to uigest
eveiything that was going to be coming my way. That meant making suie I hau all the
uetails stiaight about who I was inteiviewing, anu uiu they know what they neeueu to
know, anu theie was a whole system of people in place behinu me that weie uoing theii
thing to get the speakeis lineu up anu awaie. But I have a little piece that I'm supposeu to
uo, anu my piece neeus to be uone oi it's not going to woik. Anu I'm not usually that goou
of a uetail peison, so that took some eneigy foi me to uo that.
But I also have anothei iole; I'm paying attention to how the whole confeience is hanging
fiom a uesign peispective. Boing that with Naiilyn, anu paying attention to that fielu. I
also hau a iole at the enu of each uay to piepaie a haivest - my own take on some meaning
of the uay. So foi me, that meant listening in eveiy uay live, wheievei possible, thiowing in
some live inteiview in theie, anu then staying up as late as it took to piepaie the haivest
foi the uay. This actually takes an awful lot of eneigy, anu as my mom put it at the
beginning of oui confeience, "You guys aie iunning a maiathon." You know, at the enu of
the uay two, I was tiieu anu thinking, "Well, if I'm tiieu now, anu we've got ten moie
uays." This is something else!
Then, of couise, we all have oui own lives to uo, along with this confeience. So at the same
time all of this is going on, what is not lost on me is, we'ie getting some woik uone on oui
house, so theie aie contiactois heie, so the noimal quiet time I woulu have in the moining
I no longei hau. So staiting at the enu of August, I uisappeaieu out of the house anu went
foi a walk ovei to the top of the iivei valley, to the spot wheie I now go by habit, in the
moining, to quiet my minu. Theie's a whole piogiession, fiom when I leave my house, anu
I get closei to the top of the valley, anu I get to my thoughts, anu I have a bit of a piactice
that I have theie now, anu then walk back to my home, anu get on the fiist call of the uay.
So, theie's been quite a bit I've neeueu to uo in teims of self-caie to maintain my ability to
iun this maiathon.
Physically, touay I feel that theie is cleaily something ovei, in teims of the live stuff. I'm
tiieu. I have moie to uo in teims of the haivest foi this week, anu I have moie to uo to
figuie out what the haivest is foi the full confeience, anu how to cieate an enviionment
wheie we'ie biinging in a lot moie people's peispectives than just the few of us - which is
what we have it set up foi iight now. So theie's a lot going on in my peisonal system iight
now that feels tiieu anu exciteu all at the same time, anu it's ieally fun to holu all of that at
this point.
A73&%()G Beth, thank you foi suifacing all of those tensions we've come to talk about on
the team. The tensions that we holu as we'ie tiying to iealize ceitain paits of the
confeience. I want to talk about something that was unexpecteu foi me. It happeneu even
befoie the confeience went live, because we staiteu to issue invitations a couple of weeks
befoiehanu. In uoing that, we weie staiting to set the website up - the website, as people
may know, has been quite an emeigent expeiience. As some people have uiscoveieu, theie
was actually a uesign to this confeience. It wasn't simply a collection of people. It was
actually puiposefully uesigneu acioss all of the 12 uays, anu within each of the uays. The
12 Intelligences that infoimeu the uesign also helpeu me to issue the invitations to the
speakeis - the piesenteis - anu that took many months piioi to oui even biinging oui
team togethei, because the kinus of people who have been pait of this confeience, as oui
thought leaueis anu uesigneis anu piactitioneis, aie veiy busy people. I knew that if I
uiun't get into theii agenuas foi Septembei, we woulu nevei get them on the confeience.
So it took quite a lot of inteiesting exchanges with those piesenteis.
The fiist time that I hau an unexpecteu expeiience ielateu to those who hau committeu to
showing up as piesenteis was when we put all of theii faces |photosj on the website. That
was the expeiience of pievious online confeiences, like the Integial Leaueiship
Collaboiative anu the Enlightenment Confeience, as something that ieally was attiactive
foi people. Because they coulu see not only what the confeience was going to be about,
when they ieau that uesciiption of the piogiam oi the calenuai, but also because they
coulu actually see people anu faces anu the bios that went with them. 0ne of the veiy fiist
comments on oui website saiu, "I'm ieally uisappointeu in the piesenteis because they all
look like they'ie white - they all look like they aie the same coloi." That was something
that I hau nevei consiueieu, because in uesigning the confeience I was looking foi
uiveisity - ceitainly uiveisity of expiession - but in using the fiames that we useu -
iesilience, integial, emeigence - the kinu of uiveisity that I was sensing into anu wanteu to
be pait of this confeience is what I woulu call an "invisible" uiveisity.
In fact, in the so-calleu uiveisity uiscouise, I have aigueu foi this foi a long time now, that
the so-calleu uiveisity that we point out when it's visible, is completely ignoiing the
invisible uiveisity. Ceitainly Bon Beck talkeu about this when we hau the Neshwoik
session. But the fiist unexpecteu comment about lacking uiveisity anu the faces |photosj
leau me to iealize that the uepth of what we weie tiying to offei heie was not visible. We
weie going to have to make an extia effoit to ensuie that we weie not excluuing people
simply by whose pictuies weie showing up.
So a mantia that became pait of the confeience, anu that became pait of the
communications emails I wiote uaily to announce the next sessions of the confeience was:
950 $(3$ 3501(; F$ 5$&$E Thiough asking that question, thiough the kinus of emeigent
capacities anu eneigies that have been veiy much shaping this confeience, new faces uiu
show up. Some aie actually visibly uiffeient. I smile when people point at the oiiginal set
of photos, because they'ie actually so tiny I uon't know if you can actually |ieally tellj any
kinu of cultuial oi ethnic uiffeiences because theie aie so many hiuuen in theie.
The othei thing that I think people founu as soon as the voices staiteu speaking, when we
staiteu uoing inteiviews, is theie aie many colois to oui voices, anu it isn't just in the tone
of voice, oi the genuei of the voice, but ceitainly the accent of the voice. This is something
else that became appaient to me thioughout the confeience - you know, just the choice of
having the confeience in English, in itself is a filtei. So I still holu this question of, "Who
else shoulu be heie." Anu I am so appieciative of the voices anu the iepiesentatives who
have tuineu up, anu that in spite of the fact that it is in English, in spite of the fact that we
fiist staiteu fiom maybe a place that lookeu like it was exclusive insteau of inclusive, that
we aie continually attiacting way moie uiveisity than I coulu have even hopeu foi at the
beginning. If we go anywheie with this, then I want keep to asking, "Who else shoulu be
heie." anu "wheie else shoulu we be going."
A iecent |technologicalj connection to this that happeneu just this last week, is
uiscoveiing that some |inteinetj biowseis uon't actually suppoit the system that we weie
using as a platfoim to uelivei the confeience. So those aie two "expect the unexpecteus"
that weie veiy ieal to me. Anu thinking about the uesign - one affects people, the othei
impacts technology, anu they both impacteu who coulu tuin up. I'm just cuiious if that
iings any bells with the iest of you.
43&.G Yes, it uoes foi me Naiilyn. I think to biing anothei uimension into this, is the sense
of "who else shoulu be heie." in teims of peisons anu peispectives. I think, as we play
with these Integial anu Spiial Bynamics mouels, about the veiticality of that. About the
expanuing sense of iuentity anu expanuing ciicles of caie anu concein - to just biing the
S-B element of this |is a challengej. I think back to oui sessions yesteiuay, in paiticulai
with Teiiy Patten, followeu up with Ciaig Bamilton anu Biuce Sanguin, when we weie
uoing some of those thought expeiiments on expanueu sense of iuentity. I went back anu
lookeu at the oiiginal clip of the viueo piece that is about a minute anu a half long that's on
the website lanuing page. It's something fiom the TEB City 2.u challenge.
1
It's |sayingj "I
am the city," anu the viueo is speaking in that voice of the city. I keep thinking of what is it
to expanu oui iuentity so that we can step into some of these things, as a thought
expeiiment. 0bviously, me as a human being, in my bouyminu, I'm not able to speak foi
the city. But theie is a way also that, as a piactice, we can tiy to take on the peispective of
these othei kinus of entities that have laigei scope to them.
Cinuy Wiggleswoith spoke to that last night as well, as she saiu in coipoiate cultuies, if
you go into a paiticulai coipoiation, whethei it's Exxon-Nobil oi Wal-Nait oi the
0niveisity, oi whatevei kinus of situations you'ie in, that theie is a flavoi to each of those
entities. We can expanu that to a sense of taking on the iuentity of a city. What woulu it be
to speak foi that. Not that we have the sole peispective on that, but how uo we lean into
that. Even fuithei beyonu that is taking on that sense of: " We aie the univeise." A veiy
expansive sense of who we aie, in this cuiient, this movement, this impulse of evolution
that is moving foiwaiu. Naiilyn has fiameu that in teims of uaia's Reflective 0igan, anu
it's a ieal stietch to uo that - to stait thinking, what woulu it be to speak foi this laigei
whole, to speak with something foi the gioup.
Caiissa Wielei hau something veiy beautiful that she biought about that as well in last
night's session. }ust biinging in the thiiu uimension to uiveisity anu "who else shoulu be
heie." Anu yes, theie is "who else shoulu be heie." in teims of peisons as inuiviuuals; anu
theie's "who else shoulu be heie." in teims of peispectives. In teims of expanuing senses
of iuentity anu caie anu concein.
E-,<G Naiilyn, I'm sitting on the website heie while I'm listening anu I'm looking at all of
the photos of all of the speakeis in the hive, anu we've got eveiyone's faces anu theii
names. Anu it's stiiking me how this gioup of people has nevei been heie befoie - has
nevei been togethei befoie. Anu while all of these people, anu eveiyone who was listening,

1
http:www.youtube.comwatch.featuie=playei_embeuueu&v=g_Cx69}BuTc
weie not geogiaphically in the same place at the same time, all of what happeneu is still
hugely significant. Theie aie so many uiffeient peispectives heie, fiom so many uiffeient
angles of looking at it, it's ieally quite iemaikable. When you think of the continents that
weie involveu, anu people calling in at S:Su in the moining theii time to paiticipate, anu
some of them just uioppeu in foi theii houi anu a half with us anu haun't been paying too
close of attention, but kinu of knew what was going on, anu tiusteu that what they hau to
offei was going to fit somehow. Anu it uiu, eveiy single time!
Even when we uiun't have eveiything sciipteu foi the inteiviews, we hau some questions
as a staiting off point. I noticeu that ovei the couise of us getting ieauy foi each inteiview,
we weie being moie anu moie explicit with each of the inteiviewees that, "we'ie going to
stait with a few questions anu then we'ie just going to see what happens," anu how they
weie all okay with that. They weie all happy to live into whatevei was going to emeige in
that paiticulai conveisation foi that chunk of time.
So many people that joineu us mouelleu that, anu weie flexible anu offeieu what seem to
make the most peifect sense at the time. Then it's all still theie foi us to listen to it again!
It's a beautiful founuation foi whatevei is going to giow next.
Because of the woiu "haivest" |that I contiibute at the enu of each uay of the confeiencej, I
keep thinking, "what aie the seeus we'ie planting, anu what is the iight metaphoi." The
only thing I can come up with - anu it's totally unexpecteu, because it uoesn't actually
follow natuial piinciples - but I imagine a massive stiawbeiiy that's got thousanus of
seeus all aiounu the outsiue of it. All of which coulu giow into something. So what uoesn't
fit with natuial piinciples is, |usuallyj one species of fiuit will have a whole bunch of seeus
that aie, of couise, going to giow moie of that same fiuit. What's unueiway heie is, we
might be leaving a piece of fiuit out , but all of those seeus will have the same 3D+&+# of that
fiuit. But they'ie all going to blossom anu giow at theii own time, when they'ie ieauy, into
totally anu completely uiffeient things. All of which, howevei, will be in seivice to, fiankly,
oui well-being as a species, the well-being of oui species' ielationship with othei species,
anu oui well-being with the whole planet anu beyonu. So we'ie invoking the unexpecteu
by how we've oiganizeu ouiselves, anu even wheie we choose to jump next.
?75&=G That ieally connects foi me. We'ie talking about "expect the unexpecteu," anu
paying attention to the iules, anu what suifaceu foi me was that the iules that we set up
foi ouiselves, "who aie we as human beings." as you weie saying Beth, what aie the
things that we uo, how aie we in ielation with each othei. The impoitance of all the ways,
fiom the macio to the micio, an inuiviuual peison in theii home feels connecteu within
theii community, to the well-being of a neighboihoou, to the well-being of the entiie city,
to the well-being of the piovince, oi state, anu then the countiy. Those connections go
iight acioss |all those systemsj anu being able to biiuge that. what hit me was that again,
being in ielation with each othei anu being able to have these kinus of conveisations,
wheie we push anu pull each othei as we'ie talking thiough this - that's actually what
cieates a community.
Theie's a community that is now foiming, that has foimeu, that's theie. Peihaps foi myself,
I'm being welcomeu into the community. I'm pait of that. It's seeing it now with a uiffeient
paii of eyes. Bow uo we continue to open oui aims anu welcome otheis into the
community.
As I think we've all been saying, iegaiuless of uiveisity anu cultuie anu age, anu
backgiounu anu countiy, anu all of that, how uo we connect with each othei as human
beings anu welcome otheis into the community. As people aiounu the woilu - it's
happening so quickly iight now - people aie opening theii eyes anu seeing things.
Something is changing, something is shifting. Theie's no uoubt in my minu of that taking
place iight now. So how uo we continue to biiuge that. Bow uo we continue to keep
stanuing up anu when the winus blow, not being blown ovei. Because we'ie in community.
We suppoit each othei as we'ie going thiough all of this.
A73&%()G It's inteiesting how ielationships became a "cuiiency" of the city. Anu ieally
what biought them alive, I thought, weie the stoiies. So you can pay attention to "iules"
that aie set out. Piobably the ones that weie most lively weie any of oui uiscussions about
the piinciples of living systems - whethei that was what Bazel Benueison was talking
about in iegaius to something as piactical as financial investment, oi as inspiiing as }ean
Bouston's walk aiounu Nelbouine. Bei walk aiounu Nelbouine was something that I
coulu imagine, because she invokeu eveiy iestauiant, fiom eveiy cultuie that was now
populating the stieets of Nelbouine. Anu eveiy time she enteieu one of those eateiies,
theie weie people theie telling stoiies, shaiing coffee. Anu again anu again, I thought the
stoiies that wove thioughout the confeience weie what biought it alive in ways that weie
uelightful. in the "unexpecteu" categoiy.
But also |the stoiiesj ieminueu me about my own ioots of looking at community. I was
actually calleu to look at community thiough my expeiience in my own city of Abbotsfoiu.
Befoie I went back to |giauuatej school, I was involveu in this laige pie-0lympic spoiting
event, anu I iealizeu that all the things that I knew about management weie not sufficient
to explain to me what actually happeneu uuiing that long peiiou of thiee oi foui yeais
that it took foi us to actually mount that spoits event.
So I went back to school anu I leaineu all about complexity; I leaineu about the integial
mouel; but I also leaineu that I hau a way of looking at leaueiship that inspiieu me to
think about it |in a new wayj. It was fiom }oseph }awoiski's book G,"25&0"+2+#,. Be uefineu
leaueiship as the "jouiney to wholeness foi an inuiviuual." "A jouiney to wholeness" - that
image ieally caught me, because I thought: "Bow uo you measuie wholeness. Bow uo you
know when a peison is whole." Then as I leaineu moie anu moie about these fiamings
that have intiigueu me thiough Integial anu Spiial lenses, I iealizeu that a jouiney to
wholeness is a "nevei-enuing-quest." Well, the quest is a kinu of aichetypal stoiy of the
human species, anu as I came to think about community; what uoes community mean anu
how coulu I uefine that. (That's what I was inteiesteu in - tiying to unueistanu leaueiship
anu leaining in community, anu what I thought weie self-oiganizing systems). So, I came
to uefine community as a "jouiney to wholeness foi a gioup of people."
I think one of the themes that wove its way thioughout the Integial City confeience was:
60? 2'" ?$ "0# 0"(, ;$/$(0D ' "$? 0D$&'#+"% 3,3#$7 40& #5$ 2+#,< F1# +4 ?$ '&$ %0+"% #0 ;0
#5'#< ?5'# +3 01& "'&&'#+/$ 40& #5$ 2+#,E 95'# +3 #5$ "$? 3#0&, 40& #5$ 2+#,E I uon't think we'ie
quite theie yet.
But I suie heaiu an awful lot of stoiies in the last foui weeks that ieally alloweu me to
think that this quest, this nevei-enuing-quest, that even the veiticality that Eiic has just
iefeiieu to means that we aie actually ieaching foi a new paiauigm of the city. That was
soit of a staiting point foi me in inviting in co-uesigneis foi the confeience. Bow uo we
cieate a space wheie we coulu inquiie into this question of what might a new opeiating
system be foi Integial City 2.u.
But as Eiic just ieminueu us about the viueo that TEB put out, the stoiy theie was: ! '7
#5$ *+#,H In so many uiffeient ways thioughout the confeience, I heaiu paiticipants, I
heaiu thought leaueis, I heaiu piactitioneis anu uesigneis say, in one way oi anothei, as
an incieasing iealization, that "I am the city" anu "my stoiy is the city's stoiy."
The city's stoiy though, takes me to a whole new place of iealizing who I am. 950 '7 ! +"
#5$ 2+#, is, I think, a theme, that is soit of stietching us foiwaiu, to come up with this new
stoiy of the city.
E-,<G Naiilyn you'ie making me think of back when Buzz Bolling invokeu the image of the
islanu. Be saiu, to uo this kinu of woik you want people that aie goou to hang with on an
islanu. I'm imagining islanus at vaiious scales, because we coulu look at one paiticulai city
as an islanu, oi we coulu look at planet Eaith as an islanu. To even begin to contemplate
the question about what is the city anu its puipose, eveiyone that gatheieu thioughout the
confeience eithei as a speakei oi an inteiviewei oi a host oi volunteei oi paiticipant, we
aie all people that aie goou to hang out with on an islanu. Because we'ie the people that
aie gatheiing, exploiing the question, "What is the puipose of this habitat we'ie builuing.
What is oui ielationship with it." Anu gee whiz, if it isn't all that, well then what aie we up
foi to make suie that it uoes woik. As this is the only planet we've got so fai.
A73&%()G Thinking about the planet. when I finisheu wiiting my book anu was putting
the last finishing touches to the last chaptei, I was thinking about evolutionaiy intelligence
the way that Baibaia Naix Bubbaiu talks about it. I iealizeu one of the challenges that we
face in tiying to unueistanu the implications of the caibon footpiint is, we think about the
scaicity of what we'ie missing on eaith. But Baibaia Naix Bubbaiu has pointeu out that
actually eveiything that we consiuei to be scaice on eaith is in abunuance in the univeise.
So you just have to go "veitical" anu look up!
It's ieally been oui species' stoiy, to keep stietching fuithei anu fuithei out of the oiiginal
home teiiitoiies that we weie in on planet Eaith. Evei since we fiist saw the pictuie of the
blue planet fiom space, we iealizeu how special it was. Now we'ie watching the new Nais
lanuei anu we'ie looking anu uiscoveiing the eviuence foi watei, anu inquiiing what
might life be like theie. Is it possible foi us to even imagine that we can move life as we
know it on this beautiful benign planet, to something like a place like Nais.
That stoiy in itself maue me ie-value, in a veiy ueep way, oui planet - how it is in us - in
eveiy cell of oui bouy as an outcome of life on this planet. It just keeps ienewing itself, anu
we have come as a species to the point wheie we iealize that we have a iesponsibility foi
oui life on this planet, because it impacts eveiy othei life foim on this planet.
That was also one of the themes I saw as a giowing awaieness thioughout the confeience
- that we uo know as a species. It's not only time to wake up; we now have enough
intelligence amongst us to giow up anu to take iesponsibility foi what we can be, as uaia's
ieflective oigan, as oui next step. So that in itself has been a ieal encouiagement to me
that it is possible. It is possible - I ieally think it is.
43&.G Naiilyn, I'm appieciating in what you aie saying, a sense of imagining. You biing that
|imaginingj back in, so we actively stait using oui minus not only to play acioss
uimensions of scale that we've talkeu about, fiom the local to the iegionalstatepiovince
to the national, to the planet. With the mention of Baibaia Naix Bubbaiu anu the Nais
exploiation, to biing in that uimension, beyonu the eaith itself. I think this is wheie the
ueep time uimension comes in as well - scales of space as well as scales of time. I think of
the ueep time evolutionaiy peispective of 1S.7 billion yeais ago, when theie was the Big
Bang, anu something emeigeu out of nothing, anu we hau the evolution of the cosmos, anu
then the evolution of the planet itself, foiming just a ball of iock. Then coming to life,
ueveloping ovei the couise of billions of yeais. Then human cultuies aiising anu the
tiansitions thiough the thousanus of yeais of human cultuie, anu how they've changeu to
auapt to life conuitions. Within that |evolutionaiy tiajectoiyj we now stait becoming
conscious that we aie conscious. We'ie awaie that we'ie awaie.
So theie is this new opening to evolution, anu I think when we biing this ueepei time
peispective in, how uoes that become pait of oui stoiy. That we have all of it - that it is
not that we have one insteau of the othei. We have veiy localizeu stoiies, what's going on
in my family, anu what's happening with my son oi uaughtei oi my paients. We have
stoiies about the people who aie immeuiately aiounu us anu those aie simultaneously
embeuueu in the laigei stoiy of what's happening on the planet at this time in histoiy. Anu
that's embeuueu in yet a laigei stoiy of this unfoluing that's been billions anu billions of
yeais in the making. It's ieally a stietch of the minu to stait opening to these uiffeient
uimensions. I finu it can also become a piactice. Kinu of a mental gymnastics, if you will. A
woikout to see ouiselves in these uiffeient contexts. Because it's a veiy new way of
thinking that seems to open up new possibilities that aie impoitant foi what is going to be
neeueu iight now - paiticulaily on a global scale.
?75&=G I wonuei if it's as much an awakening as it's a connecting back to oui ioots as
humans. I finu that some of it, peihaps, is that we've foigotten about oui connections with
the Eaith, anu with natuie, anu with the things aiounu us, anu with each othei. What aie
we all going to uo on Nonuay moining when we'ie off this call. You'll get a phone call
fiom one of youi clients, oi whatevei it is, you know. Anu off you go, iun anu jump in the
cai anu uiive off. You kinu of get suckeu back into that, you know. You just think, what
will holu you to iemain in that place of unueistanuing that we'ie expeiiencing iight now
in this veiy call. Anu ovei the last foui weeks.
I always ask myself, aie theie one oi two things that I can take away anu ieally embeu into
my life piactice going foiwaiu. Is theie something theie foi us that we can giasp anu say,
You know what. I can't change the woilu touay, but maybe theie's one small thing I can
stait to shift in my peisonal self. 0i peihaps those aiounu me, oi peihaps the place aiounu
me, that I'm going to contiibute to. Anu pay attention to anu notice. To make that small
change that, ovei time, can leau to a whole bunch of people to make a laige change.
The inuigenous people of Noith Ameiica, they've been theie, 2uu yeais ago. Peihaps foi
some of us heie we have foigotten what it means to be in touch with the lanu. What if you
weie given a section of lanu oi an acie of lanu, anu that was it. You hau to suivive, to
sustain youiself on it. What woulu that mean. Bow woulu it shift foi all of us.
In one of the inteiviews theie was a conveisation: if you ieally want to heai |about this
iealityj, talk with someone who unueistanus the impact on what you'ie uoing to the lanu
anu iesouices. uo talk with someone who's been boin anu iaiseu on an islanu. uet theii
peispective on it. When you'ie polluting the watei on youi islanu, that's the watei that
you uiink. You'ie not getting it fiom anywheie else. It's not being shippeu in. 0i the foou,
oi whatevei the case may be. 0i the ielations that you have on that islanu - they aie theie.
You can't move away fiom them.
I wonuei if, as we'ie exploiing, all of us who aie going thiough this, what holus us back in
the uay-to-uay. What is theie iight now. Next week. Nonuay. That will keep you in the
place of paying attention to eveiything we'ie talking about..
E-,<G The othei thing I've appieciateu listening into all of this, is how cleai the integial
voice can be when we'ie thinking about ieconnecting to ioots in Eaith, as Baviu was just
aiticulating. That it's not about uoing into that in a nostalgic anu iomantic way anu going
back in time way. That it's the going foiwaiu way - about finuing the best anu healthiest
aspect of all of the value systems, woiluviews, levels of consciousness that we've
expeiienceu up until this point. Anu cieating the conuitions to ie-inhabit those in healthy
ways, anu not foiget that they weie. Anu that to me - just the simplicity of that uistinction
has been a subtle thieau thioughout the confeience. But it's a ieally impoitant one that
seems to be pietty cleai foi this community, in teims of oui peispective. I ieally
appieciateu that.
A73&%()G You know Beth, I think that's a beautiful way to also honoi that this confeience
was maue possible by the woik of volunteeis, laigely. Anu it's been pietty amazing foi me
to see the challenges that oui volunteeis have been willing to take on. I know that only
people fiom behinu the scenes - anybouy who has evei uone something like a theatei
piouuction oi live iauio oi any kinu of enteitainment oi iestauiants oi hotels - wheie
theie is a "fiont of the house" anu a "back of the house." Ceitainly in the back of the house,
oui piouuction team theie has just hau an amazing commitment to the puipose we set out
foi this confeience. Anu a cuiiosity about how this ielates to changing the woilu. I think
we soit of hopeu that in uesigning the confeience the way that we uiu, that we woulu be
able to speak to people who aie inteiesteu in cieating a new opeiating system foi the city
that enables them to have a quality of life, that lets them live anu woik anu play with some
kinu of puipose.
I know I still think that we will uiscovei ovei time that not only uo inuiviuuals have
puipose, which was commenteu on eailiei touay, that inteisection point between one's
gieatest joy anu the woilu's gieatest neeus. I actually think that cities will uiscovei that
they have a puipose in a planet of cities, in that context. Anu that that will also leau to a
huge ielease of eneigy, by allowing cities to be the best they can be in seivice to all life on
the planet.
I thought that what you'ie talking about was coming out with the way that people weie
willing to woik with people they love to be with. So I think that was anothei thing that
aiose in oui tiibe - I calleu it, "the tiibe of the human hive" - because, as you know, the
subtitle of my book is: "Evolutionaiy Intelligences foi the Buman Bive." So thinking about
the city as a human hive has ceitainly biought in the uiffeient ioles that I've been tiying to
think about, that we've leaineu thiough the species of the honey bee - wheie they have
confoimity enfoiceis who aie theie in the backgiounu. You know about 9u peicent of the
hive aie confoimity enfoiceis - they aie the piouuction team. They'ie the ones that aie the
equivalent on oui team who alloweu us to come on aii, on time, have oui uialogues, make
suie that the speakeis weie able to tuin up, engageu the auuience. |Because of all that
puiposeful woikj I just coulun't thank them ueeply enough.
Then theie has also been the uiveisity geneiatois - those people who've been able to come
up with the iueas that we neeueu on the spui of the moment, oi being cieative in ieaching
out to biing in "who else shoulu be heie" - all the uiffeient ways that we've been able to
use cieativity anu co-geneiativity.
I think the othei thing that people seem to shaie, because I uon't know why they woulu
stay thiough six months of total emeigence, because I coulun't tell them at the beginning
what exactly it was that we weie going to enu up uoing. |We expeiienceuj a lot of
emeigence, anu we neeueu a lot of iesilience in oui team. The iesouices, anu even the
uecision making, the juugments that we maue, weie all pait of woiking as a team. I think
that this is something that I know many leaueiship stuuies have uiscoveieu - that peihaps
the best way, the most effective way, to expanu leaueiship skills is an expeiience, a ieal
expeiience. Anu thiough engagement with a ieal puipose that is laigei than the peison
who is |immeiseu in the expeiience, one's capacities as a leauei aie stietcheuj.
So I just want to acknowleuge that oui volunteeis hau many othei "touinaments" they
coulu've been playing in, because they existeu in the hunuieus of cities that weie
iepiesenteu just in the volunteeis anu the paiticipants who subsciibeu to oui online
confeience site. I just can't imagine that they woulu have such commitment if they uiun't
see that theie was some kinu of puipose that iesonateu in some way with theii own
puipose in contiibuting to the confeience. So I'm going to imagine that theie was some
actual joy in all of the effoits that weie maue.
Then ceitainly expeiiencing that kinu of upliftment at this point in the confeience, I hope
actually can be tiansmitteu not only to oui live auuience touay, but also to those who aie
listening to the iecoiueu sessions, anu those who have been oui affiliates anu paitneis in
putting this on. Because it took - it uiu take - a whole planet of cities to have this inquiiy.
E-,<G Well we have some alive people out theie - Eiic can you invite them into the
conveisation.
43&.G We uo anu let me go fiist to Fieeu. I know you'ie late because you'ie calling fiom
Amsteiuam. So go aheau Fieeu.
C3--=G I have enjoyeu so much this whole seiies. I was not always theie, but as much as I
coulu be. It was so exquisite to be engageu anu to be listeneu to anu to be able to shaie.
What I have to contiibute is foi an even fuithei inquiiy, namely, how can you uesign a
whole nation. Which is a wonueiful plan foi Palestine which coulu be uone in an integial
way. So the same thoughts about the city can be extiapolateu to a nation. Anu that woulu
also be a possibility foi human kinu to come foith with a |uesign foi a j veiy, veiy uifficult
aiea at this moment - to biing the best of whatevei is possible to theie. Anu as humankinu,
that we can contiibute to a ie-setting of oui ielations with each othei. So that is my
contiibution.
43&.G Thank you Fieeu.
A73&%()G If I may comment on that, Eiic. That's a ieally inteiesting suggestion, Fieeu. I
uon't know if you'ie familiai with the woik that Bon Beck is uoing |with the Centei foi
Buman Emeigence, Niuule Eastj. Be has been woiking in Palestine with Elza Naalouf anu
in fact, has hau some tiaction theie. Be's been back seveial times. So I know that Bon has a
numbei of ieally excellent iueas about how to uo that. I woulu love to see that he gets an
oppoitunity to uo |what you aie talking aboutj so I uon't know if you have encounteieu
his woik befoie.
C3--=G I know about Suisman's aichitectuie in Ameiica. They have (on the inspiiation of
Ranu Coipoiation) uefineu the bluepiint foi Palestine. I think foi the most pait, they have
a most inteiesting bluepiint. I will put a link on the website. I think I have alieauy uone so,
but that is a veiy elaboiate uesign. Suisman has a lot of piizes also fiom the aichitectuie
woilu. So it is something veiy soliu, veiy thought out anu it is open foi all kinus of integial
appioaches like the whole confeience offeieu. I'm suie that this woulu be a veiy beautiful
match.
"%&7G I just wanteu to speak, not as the auuience, but about the auuience. I've hau a chance
to know some the people that have been paiticipating in most of these calls. l have the
gieatest iespect foi the commitment anu expeitise anu the thoughtfulness that is
iepiesenteu by the people that aie paiticipating in the confeience. I just feel that that is an
impoitant voice in oui city. I hope that many, many of those folks will speak up heie now
touay anu will continue to speak up thiough the website when these calls aie ovei. I just
have the gieatest iespect foi the contiibution that those folks can make to the whole
uialogue on planet Eaith about impioving ouiselves in oui cities.
43&.G Yes, thank you. Some of the contiibutions that people have maue |have been so
insightfulj - anu I ieally want to keep inviting these |to continuej as we move foiwaiu anu
put moie of those on the website. I am going to take a iisk heie anu call on somebouy who
is in oui auuience. Ian Wight has been a speakei on oui seiies anu I'u like to just invite you
in Ian, if you'u like to say a few woius. I believe it was Inquiiy Intelligence anu Emeigence
Intelligence weie a couple of the themes that you have been exploiing. Anu I wanteu to
see if you have something stiiiing in you at this time that you might want to biing in.
+7) ;&*<,G Well, I'm just enjoying the ieflections of the team. I'm exciteuly anticipating
what might emeige fiom this. 0ne of the key emeigences foi me so fai is a kinu of new
inteiest in a complementaiy 'extelligence" to the pluial intelligences we've been looking at.
Tiying to fit that in to my fiamewoik. I think that much has been happening this week.
0nfoitunately piessuies at woik uiun't peimit me to take in these sessions in the last
couple of uays. But the othei veiy alive expeiience foi me was a kinu of ueepening inteiest
in seeing what we'ie tiying - especially in that Inquiiy session, which was veiy much
Action Inquiiy - " inquiiy by uesign." I was getting inteiesteu in what that woulu look like
in a collective context. What I sometimes call "we-uesign." I think too often uesign just gets
ciicumsciibeu implicitly, if not explicitly, as "I" uesign.
I think that what has been happening heie is a lot of "we" uesign. I think this is being "we,"
uesigneu by people who aie not just inteiesteu in action inquiiy, but they've been biinging
a lot moie of themselves to it than noimally occuis, say, in a conventional scientific
inquiiy. I staiteu looking at it as not just action, but as "enaction." I have an inquiiy going
on insiue me aiounu that "enaction" piece. I'u ceitainly be inteiesteu if any of you have
hau any thoughts along those lines, oi any fuithei comments as to how youi own thinking
coming into this whole enteipiise, how has it evolveu in teims of othei "extelligences".
In my case I have been moving fiom not only all the Intelligences we'ie looking at, but a
consiueiation of this highei extelligence , but also thinking about oui inquiiy. Anu not just
as a simple action inquiiy, but an enaction inquiiy collectively. In effect, a foim of "we"
uesign. Those woulu be some ieflections fiom me.
43&.G Thank you Ian. Foi anybouy who might not be familiai with action inquiiy, it is a
specific |methouologyj. I think peihaps, you aie iefeiiing to Bill Toibeit's woik. Coulu
you just unpack that foi people who might not be familiai with it. Anu then how that leaus
to enaction inquiiy.
+7)G Well, the lattei pait is what I'm inquiiing about. But the foimei pait is veiy much
associateu with Bill Toibeit anu his associates. In those teims, it's calleu uevelopmental
action inquiiy. So it uoes builu in the |uevelopmentalj levels that we'ie awaie fiom the
integial fiamewoik. The way I woulu also tiy anu communicate it to people is that it is a
foim of inquiiy that tiies to activate simultaneously single loop leaining, uouble loop
leaining anu especially the tiiple loop leaining that comes into play.
I think it's when you get into the tiiple loop leaining that the peison uoing the leaining
especially uigs into an unueistanuing of themselves. Anu they aie biinging to that inquiiy
a whole lot moie of themselves than we might noimally suiface, in a "sensible" inquiiy.
I'm not suie if that helps. It is also associateu with action logics, anu also associateu foi
me quite impoitantly with a uistinction between conventional action logics anu post-
conventional action logics. I think that uefinitely what happens with an integial oi an
integially infoimeu inquiiy is an inteiest in activating anu animating the post-
conventional action logics, which woulu stait with Toibeit's "inuiviuualist" anu move into
the "stiategist" |stagesj foi example, anu then beyonu.
E-,<G Ny I gut, at this stage, is telling me that we aie just leaining about what the qualities
woulu be to cieate a habitat foi an action inquiiy that woulu be ueep enough to get to an
enaction inquiiy. The ieason I say that is that I think we'ie at a point wheie we know how
to woik with each othei, but maybe what I'll uo is zip iight back to what we weie talking
about in that Neshwoiking Intelligence.
|We saiu in that sessionj theie's such a thing as a netwoik, anu we'ie all familiai with that
anu know that. But the ielationship is - anu I'm just going to use the woiu - "shallow." Anu
I uon't mean it pejoiatively, but |the ielationshipsj aie not ueep, okay. So the
ielationships with each othei existeu anu they aie theie anu they get the job uone. But the
quality of ielationship with self, to oui own self, anu between othei selves (anu anything
biggei than that), just staits to happen when we contemplate a community of piactice.
The uepth that can occui in a community of piactice in teims of the quality of self being
able to see self, anu the quality othei selves being able to see the othei selves, anu then all
of those selves coming togethei in such a way that theie's something biggei anu laigei
emanating fiom them. Then theie's some foim of a supeioiuinate goal |that emeigesj.
Theie's an awful lot that has to happen befoie something tuins into a meshwoik level of
intelligence (if I can put it that way).
It seems to me that theie is a lot of woik foi us to uo, to be able to cieate the habitat foi us
to be ieally taking in all of these single, uouble, tiiple loop levels of leaining anu
awaieness about eveiything at eveiy level, at eveiy scale, while also iecognizing that not
eveiyone can uo that. So how uo we convene, so that we uiaw on those many pieces of
awaieness that each of us have. So that we can see something laigei, oi tiust that I can't
see it all on my own, but togethei we aie seeing it, even though I can't see it. That's a level
of unueistanuing that we'ie just staiting to be able to aiticulate, let alone be able to see,
let alone be able to uo, let alone be able to be.
A73&%()G I have something to say, but actually my intuition is telling me to invite Baviu
into this conveisation - because we weie having a ieally inteiesting uiscussion about the
impact on inuigenous peoples on ie-unueistanuing the city. I am suspecting, Baviu, that
you might have an opinion oi some thoughts aiounu this "enaction," as the expeiiences
that you've been having with youi inuigenous ielationships. We staiteu out oui whole
conveisation touay with a little note in oui chat winuow that saiu "all my ielations." I
think this is the kinu of inquiiy that is veiy ielateu to what we weie talking about. Bo you
agiee oi uoes this make any sense to you.
?75&=G What ieally stiuck me in oui conveisation befoie, anu what is connecting with this
now, is lifting out the gieat things that aie acioss all of oui cultuies - that aie all theie. 0ne
of the things that is veiy cleai to me in the woik I uo in the inuigenous communities is that
it's not just about one gioup, it's about all humans. It is about eveiyone altogethei. When
you look at a meuicine wheel, foi example, theie aie foui colois iepiesenteu theie: yellow,
ieu, white anu black, iepiesenting the whole of the human iace. Those symbols also
iepiesent bouy, minu, emotion anu spiiit, anu an inteisection of all those coming togethei.
If we aie actually now staiting to unueistanu anu see things that have been theie foi
thousanus anu thousanus of yeais as humans, as we have foimeu cities, we have hau to
leain about wheie these collections of people came togethei. We hau to leain how to come
togethei in ielation |to one anotheij. As you'ie saying, Beth, not eveiyone knows how to
uo that. We can't expect eveiyone to know how to uo that.
But what I've obseiveu is, maybe the best way foi me to see it is how |thingsj aie when
you pay attention to what's actually happening aiounu you. When you have ( in the case of
the language that is useu heie) a ceiemony foi something. Theie's a ceiemony foi viitually
eveiything. Because people uon't know unless someone teaches, unless theie's a stoiy
being tolu about what you'ie expeiiencing, oi what's actually happening aiounu you that
is uifficult to ielate to. It's in that stoiytelling that I think it ieally connects with people anu
inspiies |themj. Fiankly I think it's what makes you - something tiiggeis insiue you anu
you iealize, wow, I am a gieatei piece of this! 0i theie is some histoiy heie that I nevei
iealizeu.
I think of the city of Eumonton. I think I've mentioneu this befoie, but when you think of
Eumonton, uo you think of maybe the city that is 2uu oi Suu yeais olu. It's not. The city,
anu the people who have been gatheiing heie, have been gatheiing heie foi maybe 6,uuu
yeais. People have been gatheiing in Eumonton, in this place heie in Albeita, Canaua,
people fiom all ovei Noith Ameiica woulu jouiney iight to this veiy location. Why uiu
they come heie. I have askeu myself that question. I then askeu whethei, moie
impoitantly, it's the |iightj question. Because they came heie foi tiaue, they came heie foi
commeice, they came foi shaiing anu uialogue anu uiscussion aiounu haivesting fiom the
lanu - whethei that was buffalo oi whatevei, fiuit anu beiiies anu things. Bow they weie
going to be in goveinance with each othei. Anu, in a way, I like to think those aie the ioot
conveisations that almost was a species we'ie getting to. The uialogue that we weie
having pieviously with Fieeu, biinging up what's happening in Isiael anu in Palestine in
paiticulai. That's what is getting iight back uown to the heait of it.
Fiom my peispective, looking at it anu seeing what's happening, it ieally is something that
we neeu to pay attention to anu listen to what's alieauy in fiont of us. Naybe it's a fact of
us leaining anu noticing things that aie alieauy heie, anu alieauy woiking. Naybe it's
looking at natuie to see how things aie woiking anu we neeu to be paying attention to
that, in how those things happeneu. So I'll leave it theie.
A73&%()G Thanks foi shaiing that Baviu, because I get a sense, going back to Ian's question
aiounu oui expeiience with action ieseaich. I actually supeivise many - I've kinu of lost
tiack (it's piobably about 6u in the last 1u yeais) - action ieseaich piojects foi the Royal
Roaus 0niveisity woik that I uo in leaueiship anu sustainable community uevelopment.
0ne of the things |in supeivising the action ieseaichj that stiikes me ovei anu ovei again -
I actually wait foi it now. I have the piivilege of choosing whom I woik with, anu it's a
mutual choice foi the stuuents. They ueciue if they woulu like me to supeivise theii
Nasteis' piojects. So I always tell them: uo not woik with me unless you want to uiscovei
youi own leaueiship in the pioject. It's not just about this pioject oi just about the
community oi the oiganization you aie going to woik with.
In oiuei to uo an acauemic action ieseaich pioject, they uo have to have a ieseaich
question. Then they uiscovei that |the ieseaich questionj ieally becomes the coie
beginning, in oiuei foi them to even stait the ieseaich. But somewheie aiounu the
halfway point geneially, I get this exclamation maik - on a phone call usually, because we
iaiely uo it face to face. It's this |stuuentj who maybe collecteu theii uata alieauy, oi they
have staiteu to analyze it, anu of couise it's always uone aiounu the ieseaich question.
Anu they say, "0h my uou! This pioject is all about me! I thought it was about the
community oi the oiganization that I was stuuying - but it's all about me. This inquiiy is
about me. This is what I want to know about myself!"
When that happens, I know that they aie going to be able to be of so much gieatei seivice
to whomevei the oiganization oi community is as theii client foi the pioject. Then we get
ceitainly into uouble loop leaining, anu it usually becomes tiiple loop leaining because
once they get that |iealizationj, then they'ie able to be ieflective in a way that becomes so
much moie tianspaient anu engaging foi the people that they'ie woiking with.
Foi those who uon't know that, the fiaming of action ieseaich even outsiue of Bill
Toibeit's woik (in fact, that tenus to have been my tiauition befoie I encounteieu Bill
Toibeit's action leaining), is that it can be paiticipatoiy (anu tenus to be with the woik
that I uo). The paiticipation means that the inquiiei is not objective. They aie pait of the
subjective anu inteisubjective space of the inquiiy. I think that's wheie we'ie going in this
confeience.
The peison who ieally gave me goose bumps when we weie talking about what coulu
happen next is ueoige Poi, who was on the call eailiei touay, because he's woiking with
what he calls 20I%$"$&'#+/$ '2#+0" &$3$'&25. That means that it isn't just staying with an
initial question; it isn't just staying with the question that one peison oi a small gioup
uefines, but actually is continuously leaining as I unueistanu. I want to leain a goou ueal
moie about it. I think it's that kinu of oppoitunity that we've openeu up in this confeience.
|Wej staiteu out with an inquiiy: how uo we uesign a new opeiating system foi an
Integial City 2.u. We now aie at a point that we "know that we uon't know." That's oui
fiist stage. 0ui next step is going to be: what will we have to geneiate togethei in oiuei to
get to a stage wheie knowing that we uon't know is a goou place to stait. We'ie going to
have to cieate a ieseaich ecology. It will not just be a community of piactice, but as it
matuies, I woulu hope it becomes some kinu of what I call a meshwoik - which woulu be
communities of communities of piactice.
I agiee with Beth that we'ie just at the beginning stages of this. We've inviteu into this
conveisation ceitain thought leaueis anu uesigneis anu piactitioneis so that we coulu
seeu the space; so that we coulu keep asking ovei a longei peiiou of time. I think what I
take fiom, ceitainly one of Ian's own qualities of piovoking emeigence, is that if we allow
foi emeigence, iesilience oi iecalibiating the kinus of things that Baviu is pointing to. So,
we'ie ie-giounuing ouiselves in Nothei Eaith at the same time as ieaching up into Kosmic
space. We'ie actually ieuefining what we might be in oui ielationships with one anothei
anu theiefoie what can be an outcome.
It's going to be something that we, uo in the "we" space foi suie. Peihaps again Ian, I might
then uiscovei what you aie gioking as "extelligence". Naybe that has something to uo that
embiaces way moie than the intelligences that I've been pointing to.
Naybe the last thing I coulu say in this iiff is, one thing I have leaineu is that even by
pointing at intelligences, this is a veiy new inquiiy. Even within the uialogues we've hau
on any given intelligence, we've uiscoveieu that people uon't yet know that, as an
intelligence in themselves oi in theii cities. Anu ceitainly we've uiscoveieu that most of
the intelligences that we've engageu uon't necessaiily know each othei. So one
intelligence uoesn't yet iealize the extent to which it is eithei connecteu to anuoi
amplifying the otheis.
So it's an inteiesting place to be in tiying to open up the space foi a new paiauigm foi the
city, with an inquiiy about how can we uesign a new opeiating system foi the city. I
woulu go back to the session that pieceueu this |Bay 12, Session 2j, wheie the foui voices
of the city basically shaieu theii unueistanuing, that what they've come to appieciate is
that we neeu to be able to actually uesign the uesign piocess. Peihaps that is a beautiful
place foi us to biing oui own uialogue this afteinoon to |a closej.
I woulu just ask if theie is anybouy else in oui uialogue quaitet heie who woulu like to
auu anything to the thoughts I've shaieu to Ian's question.
E-,<G All I woulu auu is: this is a leaining jouiney that a numbei of us have chosen at this
point in time to be on togethei. Anu we will pait anu sepaiate on oui own jouineys. Then
we will ieconnect anu all of ieconnections, like the synapses in the biain will be getting
stiongei anu stiongei as we all exploie in oui iespective iespectful ways.
?75&=G I woulu like to thank all of you foi cieating this space anu having this conveisation.
It was wonueiful to ieflect back anu think of the expeiiences we hau ovei the past foui
weeks anu all the uiffeient leaining I've hau. I know it will take quite some time to |make
all the connectionsj as Beth has commenteu. I can only imagine all the haivesting foi the
whole confeience in each one of sessions, but even foi my own peisonal haivest, it is
going to take a bit of time to go thiough anu ensuie I get the most out of it. I just want to
say thank you to eveiybouy.
A73&%()G Naybe what I coulu auu to that, Baviu, is that actually we'ie just beginning. So
even though we aie at the last session of the confeience, I must invoke that beautiful poem
|of t.s. eliotj to say that "in the enu is oui beginning. anu as we've aiiiveu at the place, we
know it foi the fiist time." Well peihaps we know it a little bit bettei than when we fiist
encounteieu it. But I think that's a beautiful place to both enu anu begin the next cycle.

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