FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES JANUARY 7, 2003 7:00 P.M.

Chairperson Meyers called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Committee Members Present Councilmember Meyers Councilmember Pflumm Councilmember Sawyer Councilmember Thomas Other Councilmembers Present Councilmember Goode Councilmember Newby Councilmember McGuff Staff Present City Manager Montague Assistant City Manager Gonzales

Police Chief Clark City Attorney Rainey Public Works Director Freyermuth Parks & Recreation Director Holman Finance Director Meyer Fire Chief Hudson Traffic Engineer Sherfy

Councilmember Segale Members of the public who spoke were: Item 1 - EMILY GRIFFIN, 5648 Oakview, MOLLY PAGENKOPF, 5635 Greenwood Street, JANET PRESTON, 5727 Cottonwood, ELIZABETH MULLIN, 5820 Mullen Road, Item 2 - ANDY RAMIREZ, Lathrop & Gage LC Attorneys, 10851 Mastin, RACHEL RUBIN, 14283 W. 51st Street, DAVID WILLIAMS, 14283 W. 51st Street, TOM BECKENBAUGH, 6705 Vahalla Drive, BILL SHIPPE, 14601 W. 50th Street, Item 4 CHARLOTTE HARGIS, 6925 Ballentine. 1. DISCUSSION OF INTERSECTION OF JOHNSON DRIVE AND OAKVIEW. Chairperson Meyers stated there is a request to have a school crossing guard at Johnson Drive and Oakview. Police Chief Clark stated the City originally received a request from a resident in Oakview, Molly Pagenkopf, who wanted the City to put a crossing guard at the Johnson Drive and Oakview

location. He stated there were several different officers on several different occasions that went out and viewed this intersection and based on their observations, they did not believe there was a safety problem at the location. Although there are a large number of students that cross at this location, they are crossing a local street, not Johnson Drive. He stated the City didnt f ere was a need for a crossing guard at that location. He stated when he told Molly Pagenkopf, she then made a request for that location to have turn restrictions so that the traffic traveling on Johnson Drive would not turn onto Oakview to interfere with the students crossing. He stated Mark Sherfy, the Citys Traffic En er, looked into that and for several reasons outlined in the memo provided to Council, he recommended against the traffic control at that location. Chief Clark stated there was also a req move the sidewalk, currently located on the east side of Oakview to the west side of Oakview so that the students could go north into Oakview Estates, without having to cross Oakview. He stated Mark Sherfy reviewed that request and due to the fact that it simply moves the same situation one block to the north, where there currently is no crosswalk, he recommended against that request as well. Councilmember Segale asked about the placement of the crosswalk and the proximity of the street. He asked if there was a standard on the outside edge of the crosswalk placement.

Police Chief Clark stated he was not sure if there is any standard on that, but it appears to be in the correct location.
Councilmember Thomas asked for Police Chief Clark to explain to Ms. Pagenkopf and the audience, the concept of war and that the City does have certain measures and standards. She stated the City would have a request at virtually every intersection for some kind of a crossing or enforcement, or to put two sidewalks in. She asked who regulated that. Traffic Engineer Sherfy stated there actually is no regulation as to where or where not to place crosswalks. He stated ther e guidelines established by transportation engineers that set some very high guidelines that in most cases Shawnee and other cities are far under to begin with. He stated at this particular location,

with it being adjacent to a flashing school zone beacon sign and being a marked crosswalk, the City is covered at this location, from a liability standpoint. He stated what you look for, in the placement of crosswalks, is not necessarily the number of children or the number of cars; its the number of gaps that children have to cross the street. He stated that is what the guideline is somewhat based on. He stated there are some tables you can use as a rule of thumb to give you an indication, based on a combination of traffic volumes on the through -street and on the number of pedestrians crossing the crosswalk. He stated to paint a picture as to the ITE (Institute of Transportation Engineers) guidelines for something like this particular location, when you have a traffic volume of less than 2,000 vehicles per day which would be what Oakview is experiencing, the ITE actuall ys you need 90 pedestrians crossing per hour, which there are very few locations in Shawnee were there are that many. He stated there are some regulations regarding stop signs where there are pedestrian conflicts. He stated the City would not be able to conduct those numbers, because there is already an existing situation at Oakview where there is a crosswalk and a stop sign. He stated if you moved up to 58th Terrace and Oakview, it would take an engineering study to find out if a stop sign is warranted at that location. He stated, probably not. He stated the only real guideline for crosswalks, with regard to stop signs, would be something that would have to be looked into at a futur ate. Councilmember Pflumm stated he had talked briefly with Traffic Engineer Sherfy about this and Traffic Engineer Sherfy thought, similar to the other residents and some of the other homeowners down in his subdivision to the north, that it isnt a perfect situation, especially with 70-80 kids crossing right there. He asked if Traffic Engineer Sherfy still agreed with that. Traffic Engineer Sherfy stated any place where pedestrians are sharing the roadway isnt an ideal situation, whether it is one kid versus 1,000 cars or one kid versus 10 cars. He stated he doesnt particularly see any problems at this location and in his database there is no accident history at this location in the last two years. He stated since his conversation with Councilmember Pflumm, he did go out this past Friday and perform a count. He stated it was somewhat chillier on Friday than it was in October, but there were

44 children who passed in a 15 minute period. He stated there was no activity outside of that 15 minute period and he encountered 26 left turning vehicles, which is the movement in question. He stated the rest of the movements there are very minimal. He stated he would expect in October when 50- 70 kids were there, that some of those 26 cars were probably gone. He stated from a gap standpoint, there is 15 minutes of time with 20 -30 cars turning. He stated that is adequate time for children to cross, from a safety standpoint. He stated from his perspective, he thinks it is safer to keep the kids at this location where there is a flashing school zone. He stated it was also noted on Friday that of th ren he saw crossing the street, eight of them continued along the north side of Johnson Drive. He stated of any these alternatives the City has looked into, a little less than 20% of the kids ar g to be crossing at the danger area. He stated they have not really solved the entire problem. Councilmember Thomas stated she would like to acknowledge Molly Pagenkopf for getting involved. Council always a ciates it when citizens bring these things to their attention. She stated the City does try to have standards and she reluctantly can not support Mollys request at this time, but they will keep a watch on it and hopefully Ms. Pagenkopf will be a leader in encouraging the kids to practice safe crossing techniques. She stated she is going to recommend that the City stick with the street plan the way it is. Chairperson Meyers stated he would second that motion, but before the Council votes on it, he asked for questions from the Councilmembers and then he will open it up for discussion from the audience. Councilmember Segale stated Traffic Engineer Sherfy noted the traffic count had to be 2,000 cars a day. He asked if the count was less than 2,000 cars a day, would there have to be 90 pedestrians crossing an hour, or in a day? Traffic Engineer Sherfy answered in an hour and that is a guideline. He stated its actually based on increasing traffic volumes, so as there is more traffic, the guideline drops in a parabolic curve. He stated when there are fewer than 2,000 cars per day, you are looking at 200 cars, on an estimate, in a one hour

period, and that is a car every 20 -30 seconds which is adequate time for a child to stop, look both ways, cross the street, and not feel pressured. Councilmember Segale asked with the cars Traffic Engineer Sherfy saw in a 15-minute period, was there a period where more cars turned in and kids crossed at the same, or approximate, time. Traffic Engineer Sherfy stated that basically all the pedestrians were in a 15-minute period and during that time there were 26 left turns. He stated there was a 4-minute period when 26 children crossed and he counted them in groups. He stated there were groups of 13, 6, and 5. He stated that is also a benefit with the number of children they are talking about, because at least they are in a pack in that tight timeframe. He stated if there was just one or two kids crossing, there would be less likelihood of a vehicle seeing them. He stated the location is basically hot for 4 minutes a day. Councilmember Sawyer asked if the left turns that were made at that location were heading southbound going east. Traffic Engineer Sherfy stated the turns in question are eastbound on Johnson Drive, making a left turn to go north on Oakview. He stated his guess is that of those cars, the majority w e parents who picked up their children from the school. Councilmember Sawyer asked if of the 26 cars noted were cars making left turns back into the neighborhood. Traffic Engineer Sherfy stated, yes, all 26 cars were turning into the neighborhood. EMILY GRIFFIN, 5648 Oakview, stated she has lived at this address for 14 years. She stated she would like to refute that the traffic being talked about are people in the neighborhood. She stated the intersection is one issue, but the bigger issue is the sheer volume and speed of traffic on Widmer and Oakview between 55th & Johnson Drive. She stated 10 years ago she allowed her 5year -old to walk unattended to school. She stated she now has a 10-year-old and she will not allow him to walk because of the

volume of traffic. She stated with the growth of Hidden Woods, Woodland Place, Saddlebrooke, Sylvan, anyone who drives on Quivira Drive from the north, approaches the intersection from Quivira Drive and it becomes Pflumm at 55th Street. She stated as Pflumm heads east a mile, anyone westbound on Johnson Drive do not take that. She stated the volume of traffic is not local people, the traffic jogs over there. She stated the traffic in question does not consider it a residential street posted at 25 mph, they consider it their own private through -street so to take all the traffic off Pflumm, that might be westbound going to 435, as well as to the school, and the volume of traffic is outrageous from 7:45 a.m. until 8:10 a.m. She stated her and her husband can barely back out of their driveway. She stated her husband has ceased even trying to get out during that time because its just like the autobahn in Germany and most of the people are coming from the north. She stated she would propose that, perhaps, the police could do some volume testing and check the speeds to s at most of that traffic comes from north of 55th Street. She stated all of northern Shawnee is using Oakview as a through -street and thats the significant problem in her mind. She stated that would be another alternative to deal with this issue. If there was any way to route the through-traffic back to Pflumm, which is really a through-street and not have people going 35-45 mph on a curvy, hilly residential street, she feels it would be much safer. Councilmember Goode asked what the posted speed was on that street. EMILY GRIFFIN stated the posted speed limit is 25 mph and when she and her neighbors drive 25 mph through there, people tailgate them and even pass them on this street. She stated because it is hilly and curved, a child can be the most conscientious child in the world and look both ways, then halfway across the street someone comes barreling through at 40-45 mph and the kid cant get across the street. She stated kids that are well old enough to be handling crossing the street alone cant do it, so that is another reason the kids are going in bundles of 16, 5, and 8, because the parents have banded together to walk bands of kids to school, because they cant allow them to walk singly because they are not seen by the traffic.

Councilmember Pflumm stated he was been passed on Widm r as well. Councilmember Thomas stated the City can monitor the speed and use the speed monitoring machine so the cars know how fast they are going. MOLLY PAGENKOPF, 5635 Greenwood Street, stated she prepared a handout for the Councilmembers. She passed this out to the Councilmembers. She stated the handout is basic a proposal for a crosswalk to be moved one block north to where it exists at Oakview and Johnson Drive. She stated she would respectfully request that the motion be reconsidered to deny moving this crosswalk. She stated in all due respect to Police Chief Clark, she feels his officers, who were at the intersection in question doing their observations, were there strictly to count the children crossing. She stated she personally has been alking the students back and forth through that intersection since school started in August every day. She stated in the three days the officers were there making their observation, there were near collisions with children at least two times and for so e reason, that was not communicated to Police Chief Clark. She stated maybe the officers just didnt see the collisions, maybe they werent looking. Shes not sure. She stated she has been nearly run down, by accident, because it is a very dangerous intersection. She stated she decided not to press charges for an incident where a driver intentionally tried to push her out of the way r car, because she was in the crosswalk and inconveniencing the driver in her rush to get her children home. She stated she c re the Council this woman does not live in Lakeview Estates. She thanked Emily Griffin for her statement. She stated to the Council if they looked on the last page of her handout at the top, it listed all the subdivisions she could find north of Lakeview Estates who are in the Broken Arrow Elementary school district. She stated in all those neighborhoods there are a total of 1,000 hom whose children would go to Broken Arrow. She stated, granted a lot of the children probably take buses, but their parents probably drive a large percentage of them to school. She noted if Council looked at the way the map was laid out from the north to Brok Arrow, she personally does not drive mile out of her way to get where she is going, and neither do any of these people. She stated the

volume of traffic coming down Widmer from 55th Street up Oakview in the morning and the other direction in the afternoon is huge and she would very much welcome an engineering study of that traffic, because there are other issues other than the school crossing. She stated her immediate concern is the school crossing. Molly Pagenkopf then walked to an outline she had prepared and had posted on an easel up front for Council and the audience to view. She pointed out of the intersection in question and showed the area where the children walk up Johnson Drive to Alden and cross then walk back down Johnson Drive and run for their lives to get across the street. She stated people dont realize that you are not supposed to dodge between pedestrians with their cars. She stated they do dodge between them and, granted, it is only a 10minute window, and maybe on a cold day there are only 4 -5 kids, but she thinks there would be a lot more children walking if the City made it a safer crosswalk and the traffic at the school would diminish because more people would let their children alk to school if the crosswalk was safer. She stated all she is proposing is a sidewalk to be added to the west side of Oakview so the children do not have a cross at the dangerous, hilly intersection. She stated the area where they are asking for a sidewalk is perfectly flat and there is a wonderful line of vision and much safer. She stated they would also like to have a stop sign, but, apparently, the City has adopted some extremely strict guidelines on stop signs and its to the point where she wonders if half the stop signs in Shawnee would even exist if they r e-evaluated them under these guidelines. She stated if the crosswalk could at least be moved in a block, she feels their children would be much safer and she currently does not let her child walk home alone and they only live 3 blocks from the school.

Councilmember Segale asked Molly Pagenkopf if the crosswalk was moved down to 58th Terrace, did she feel a stop sign should be place there.
MOLLY PAGENKOPF stated she would prefer a stop sign be placed there, so the drivers would be allowed to stop ess the situation and the volume of children crossing. She stated the children usually cross in several large groups and a stop sign would benefit them in the afternoon when they are in large

groups. She stated in the morning, apparently, the sun is an issue at the intersection of the crossing and a person cant see the oncoming traffic, much less the children crossing in the intersection and she has been getting lots of complaints from the moms about this too. Councilmember Segale stated there should probably be a stop sign, because he lives next to a school and, unfortunately, it seems like parents are the most careless drivers when getting their kids to school. He stated if there wasnt a stop sign at th w crosswalk location, people will be coming around the corner and accelerating to get home and he thinks it would be more dangerous to move the crosswalk down. He stated when they come down around the corner, there would be limited vision because of the sign there and the flag pole, then they would start down the road and if there was a kid crossing, they would be in a lot more danger. He stated the situation here are people making this left hand turn and they see cars coming and try to hurry across and there may be a kid crossing street, and thats where the near miss probably comes. He stated if the crosswalk were to be moved, you would probably need a stop sign there and the reason there are warrants, is so there isnt a stop sign at e ery corner. He stated people come to Council all the time, they usually talk to Staff instead of Council, but they want stop signs at every intersection because they feel it will slow traffic do He stated its probably going to be concentrated with people taking their kids to school and he doesnt know if warrants will be needed or if there is even a good solution to the problem, because its the people taking their kids to school that endanger the other kids going to the school. He stated moving the crosswalk do would alleviate the problem at the corner, but another problem might be created at another spot and in the morning he can see ere kids walking out from behind the monument sign might be in danger because people might move out to the very edge of the street before they look. He stated he would like to see a study done on the volumes on Oakview. Chairperson Meyers asked City Manager Montague if the City allowed PTOs to meet on this type of subject and allo m to possibly allow volunteers to act as crossing guards in a situation like this.

City Manager Montague stated the City does not have a policy that disallows that type of activity, but at the same time they dont encourage that type of activity. Chairperson Meyers asked Molly Pagenkopf if she had brought this to the attention of the PTO at Broken Arrow. He stated he knows when he was a student, all of the crossing guards throughout the neighborhood were volunteer parents, and even volunteer students, which he doesnt think he would re mmend in this case, but he does believe that volunteer parents could be a real possible solution and would think that would be something that is workable for the PTO at Broken Arrow. MOLLY PAGENKOPF stated she is the Chairperson for the Health and Safety Committee for the PTA at Broken Arro , which is one of the reasons this situation took her attention. She stated while no formal proposal has been reviewed and passed by the PTA, the school and the principal at Broken Arrow support this proposal of moving the crosswalk and also agree that this is an extremely dangerous situation. She stated she has been doing the volunteer cross walking each day and she has been vised by her legal counsel for the PTA and her insurance agent that if an accident should occur while she was walking the children across the street, that she could personally be sued and held liable for endangering that childs safety and health. She stated that is one of the reasons she stopped doing it at the end of last semester and she is standing at the corner now supervising behavior. She stated it is terrifying to watch. She stated a child is going to be hit by a car and her concern is, why wait until a child is hit and possibly killed, before something is done about this. She stated the PTA has looked at several alternatives and a volunteer crossing guard is simply not the solution. She asked why they should put a volunteer in danger. She stated the situation itself is dangerous. She stated if the crosswalk can be moved in for a better line of vision and it is a nice, flat surface even if a study needs to be done before stop signs are put in they can at least change the location where the children are crossing. She stated she would be happy to continue walking back and forth, even if it is at risk of personal lawsuit. She stated, unfortunately, the PTA will not sponsor off -campus children doing the crossing. She stated

volunteers are not willing to risk their personal livelihood to walk children across. Chairperson Meyers asked City Manager Montague if there was ever another type of situation like this. He asked if Council did not discuss the moving of a crosswalk at Nieman Grade School and he does not think the crosswalk was ever moved and it was a similar situation to this where the kids were coming out of a neighborhood and had to walk down the street to the stoplight to the crossing guard to get to school, rather than crossing in the middle of the street. He stated this is not the first time that a situation like this has come up. He stated it was a ve y heavily traveled street (67th Street) and there was the same number of student activity, but the one thing he would caution Council on and the thing people need to be aware of is, Council would have many situations like this to review of wanting to not only move crosswalks, and have the possibility of additional sidewalks installed, and things of that nature, and many times it just doesnt become feasible. He stated he does not have problems in taking additional traffic and pedestrian counts, but at this time when the Citys traffic engineer and police are making statements that help guide Council in some of these decisions, telling Council they dont think things are out of line in this situation, and he knows certain peoples views are different from others, but any times Council has to go along with what their professionals are telling them, unless they see something that is drastically different. He stated he is not being persuaded in this situation that this is the case. Councilmember Pflumm stated 67th Street is nothing like Johnson Drive. He stated the situation is there are kids crossing here and its not exactly safe. He stated Council can make it safer by moving the sidewalk for some 300 (some odd) feet. He stated the City doesnt necessarily need to put a stop sign in as he doesnt think it would help from what Traffic Engineer Sherfy is telling him. He stated this would be an inexpensive thing to do. He stated the City is going to blow money doing counts and studies, when they could solve the problem simply by putting in a sidewalk.

Chairperson Meyers stated he would again state there are many situations where people come before Council wanting to know

why they dont have sidewalks on both sides of the streets in their neighborhoods, and he doesnt think its something that is feasible for the City to do and he would caution that before Councilmember Pflumm gets too involved in this, and he doesnt know if Councilmember Pflumm or Councilmember Segale have talked to the residents along that street or not, but there may be some strong opposition to adding an additional sidewalk to begin with. He stated those are things you have to be careful with and these are items that have come before Council in other situations. He stated another similar situation where this has com e he has been on Council was with Ray Marsh School, where there was talk about an additional sidewalk and there were residents who came before the Council who were extremely upset and not wanting that situations to arise. Councilmember Sawyer stated there are a couple issues he would like the City to check on. He stated the City needs to make sure the crosswalk is placed correctly and it was suggested earlier that the Police Department bring some pressure to speeders on the streets. He stated he is sure the Police Department is doing their job, but they may want to do a little extra enforcement to bring the speeding situation under control. He stated he has trouble, like Chairperson Meyers, in putting another sidewalk on the street when they have streets all over the City where there are no sidewalks at all and kids are walking to school. He st e would have a real issue of trying to support a second sidewalk. Councilmember Segale asked City Manager Montague about the thing they saw in Salt Lake City where orange flags are placed in small containers on each side of the intersection and the pedestrians carry the flag across the street with them wave it. He stated the people of Salt Lake City stated it reduced accidents quite a bit by having the people cross the crosswalks with these flags. He stated the majority of these people were adults, but it might be interesting to try something like this at this location. He stated it would at least make the children more visible as they cross the street. He stated he still thinks they should do the traffic count, but the flags probably cost $1.00 a piece and they could put the dispensers in and it might cost $100.00 total. He stated the PTA could monitor the flags and dispensers, so all the flags dont get stuck on one side.

JANET PRESTON, 5727 Cottonwood, stated she thinks anything the City can do to make it safer for children is great. She stated her child is only allowed to walk to school once or twice a year. She stated she is all for a new sidewalk, but if a stop sign in placed there, the same traffic that comes through there now will be diluted from going through Oakview and the traffic w turn and go down Widmer which is already a problem at 57th and Widmer. She stated she will then be one of the people demanding a 3-way stop sign at 57th and Widmer. She stated there is an exorbitant amount of people behind them in the subdivisions that cut through Oakview and Widmer pretty evenly. She stated if the City makes a double stop sign 250 yards (approximately art, she has already spoken to someone that stated they wouldnt go that way anymore, they would go Widmer instead. Councilmember Thomas stated it doesnt require a motion for Council to tell the police to monitor for speeders. She stated she would like to amend her motion to do a demonstration project on the Salt Lake City flag program, but not change the current policy. Councilmember Segale stated he would like to see the flag program demonstrated, but would also like to see the speed monitoring machine placed out there as well. ELIZABETH MULLIN, 5820 Mullen Road, stated she walks to school and back and she and her sister has a problem b ause her sister cant run as fast as her and you never know when the cars are coming so you have to check a million times to make sure there is no traffic. She stated today she had a proble walking home, because there was a car that couldnt make up their mind what to do and it wasted her time getting home. Councilmember Segale asked Ms. Mullin what she thought about the flag idea. ELIZABETH MULLIN stated that might be okay, but shes not sure if the children would put the flags back or not. Councilmember Thomas, seconded by Chairperson Meyers, moved to recommend that the Council not make any

changes to the intersection of Johnson Drive and Oakview, except to direct staff to research and implement, on a trial basis, a "flag system" similar to Salt Lake City, Utah.The motion carried 31, with Councilmembers Thomas, Meyers and Sawyer voting "aye" and Councilmember Pflumm voting "nay. "
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