Parametric Excitation

Parametric Excitation
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Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 > LinkBack 06-02-2010, 06:56 AM Thread Tools #1 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 279
Raui
Senior Member Parametric Excitation
I thought I'd take the current discussion from Peter, whatever happened with Eric P. Dollard? and make it's own topic as it was creeping off topic. To sumarize for those who haven't read the thread, Eric Dollard came to the forum and posted two posts which are located here Peter, whatever happened with Eric P. Dollard? and here Peter, whatever happened with Eric P. Dollard? He pointed a group of us to research parametric excitation of an electrical circuit along with giving us more references to dig our teeth into. From my reading I have found; A changing dielectric flux = displacement current or dielectric induction A changing magnetic flux = magnetic induction A change of capacitance (lower -> higher) = positive conductance
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A change of capacitance (higher -> lower) = negative conductance A change of inductance (lower -> higher) = positive resistance A change of inductance (higher -> lower) = negative resistance So the aim of our game is to change the parameters of our circuit as quickly as we can to create/cohere energy and if this energy gain is higher than the resistive losses plus the energy required to change the parameter we have excess energy we can use to power a load! Time for experimentation, so who wants to play? Raui
Last edited by Raui : 09-13-2010 at 05:23 AM.
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06-02-2010, 06:57 AM
#2 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 279
Raui
Senior Member Relevant writings
The following is a list of publications that Eric has said are good publications to research and also ones that pertain directly to parametric excitation. Charles P. Steinmetz (Mathematician/Electrical Engineer) Electric Discharges, Waves, and Impulses Theory and Calculation of Alternating Current Phenomena - REACTION MACHINES Theory and Calculation of Transient Electrical Phenomena and Oscillations
Oliver Heaviside(Electrical Engineer) Electromagnetic Theory 01 Electromagnetic Theory 02 Electromagnetic Theory 03 Electrical Papers 01 Electrical Papers 02 Electromagnetic Induction and its Propagation (Taken from Electrical Papers 01 & 02) Michael Faraday (Electrical Engineer/Physicist) Experimental Researches Into Electricity On The Various Forces Of Nature And Their Relations To Each Other Arthur E. Kennelly (Electrical Engineer) The Application Of Hyperbolic Functions To Electrical Engineering Problems
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Electricity Made Easy Electrodynamic Machinery for Continuous Currents Tables of Complex Hyperbolic and Circular Functions The Electric Telephone Alternating Electric Currents Theoretical Elements of Electrodynamic Machinery Electricity in electro-therapeutics Magnetism Two other important texts are: Vector Power in A.C. Circuits and Impedance, Angular Velocities & Frequencies of Oscillating Currents Loyal Vivan Bewley (Electrical Engineer) Travelling Waves on Electrical Power Systems Travelling Waves on Transmission Systems Alexander Macfarlane (Mathematician) Fundamental Principals of Algebra Physical Arithmetic Vector Analysis and Quaternions Principals of the Algebra of Physics Another good reference "The Imaginary of Algebra" can be found in Principals of the Algebra of Physics starting at pg 68. L. F. Blume Abnormal Voltages Within Transformers (Co-authored with A. Boyajian) James Clerk Maxwell (Theoretical Physicist/Mathematician) James Clerk Maxwell Scientific Papers 01 James Clerk Maxwell Scientific Papers 02 Leonid Isaakovich Mandelstam (Electrical Engineer) Russian Paper - "Concerning the Excitation of Electrical Waves Through Parameter Changes" Thanks Amigo. English Paper "Concerning the Excitation of Electrical Waves Through Parameter Changes" thanks MJL Recent report on recent research into non-linear oscillations Ferninand Cap US Patent 4622510 - Parametric Electric Machine Nicholas Minorsky Parametric Excitation Chihiro Hayashi Nonlinear Oscillations in Physical Systems Jacob Millman Pulse Digital and Switching Waveforms Bernard Chih-Hsun Yen Vibration-to-electric energy conversion using a mechanically-varied capacitor Coloured in red are writings that have been directly referenced by Eric Dollard at some point or another. I'll update as new documents, patents or papers surface. Some documents aren't hyperlinked because I can't find them or they're copyrighted. They are still worth getting a hold of.
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06-02-2010, 06:59 AM
Raui
Senior Member
-Here is where we will post our conclusions or interesting results from experiments-Inductance can change even when influencing magnetic fields are at 90 degrees to each other. -An effective way of capacitance changing can be by alternating between series and parallel configuration of a bank of capacitors. PS: I don't mean to spam I just want to keep the topic organised. Raui
06-02-2010, 10:30 AM
#4 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 538
Xenomorph
Senior Member Quote:
-An effective way of capacitance changing can be by alternating between series and parallel configuration of a bank of capacitors. That is true, but that is a pretty abrupt change and looking at the total capacitance of the circuit it is a variation, but not if you look at the individual capacitor. I wonder if it is more effective to vary the capacitance of an individual capacitor and if that should happen more in differentials of a sinusoid waveform. The mechanical displacement of capacitor plates comes to mind.
06-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Raui
Senior Member
This is exactly why we need to experiment. In my spare time (which isn't all that much at the moment ) I plan to make a spinning variable capacitor setup. Heres abit of maths about the possible capacitance changes in a device like this. Say we have a capacitance, C, which is the capacitance of two semi-circle plates separated by 10mm of air with an area of 100mm^2. Now in the middle of these plates we have a rotating semi circle with the same area. Capacitance is proportional to area / distance. So with the second plate we have doubled the area and halved the distance, that is 2A/0.5D which works out to be 4 * A/D or 4C. Now say we have 19 rotating plates and 20 stationary. We now have 19C when the rotating plates aren't in the plane of the plates and then 76C when they are. A change of 19C -> 76C is quite a change
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especially if it's quick. You get the most energy out of the system when the change is at half the resonant frequency of the circuit. Just a bit of food for thought. Raui
06-02-2010, 01:59 PM
#6 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 538
Xenomorph
Senior Member
Okay, since this is new ground i am wondering what would the resonant frequency of the circuit be if the capacitance changes over time. I guess then the resonant frequency changes proportionally.
Quote:
This is a result of the variation of capacitance (C in Farrads) with respect to time (T in seconds) which results in a negative conductance G (in Siemens). Hence the generation of electric energy.
Quote:
Most are clueless about the importance of the Variation of Inductance and Capacitance with respect to time and synchronous parameter variations. So what about a variation of inductance? A coil that mechanically alters the inductance could be realized to, maybe attached to the same motor altering the capacitance to ensure synchronicity and see what happens. A bit discouraging is the statement by Eric :
Quote:
Such devices tend to operate above 500 kva and are not scalable into smaller devices, and therefore are only appropriate for substations. But if someone doesnt try, then it will never be verified or proven possible.
Last edited by Xenomorph : 06-02-2010 at 02:16 PM.
06-02-2010, 08:08 PM
#7 (permalink) Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,905
boguslaw
Senior Member
I don't see the reason why they are not scalable down.Probably smaller device need just a regulation tool to limit power and prevent self-destruction.
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06-02-2010, 09:35 PM
#8 (permalink) Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 329
SuperCaviTationIstic
Senior Member
guaranteed they don't scale down if you keep the same symmetry as the large versions. Bet you if you used asymmetrical capacitors, you could shape the dielectric field for added and focused intensity. Everyone needs to stop thinking about symmetry and start thinking about complimentary ratios/geometry/function STOP THINKING LINNEARLY Experiment with curvature
Last edited by SuperCaviTationIstic : 06-02-2010 at 09:37 PM.
06-03-2010, 06:15 AM
boguslaw
Senior Member
parametric resonance is a time machine, think about it
06-03-2010, 01:30 PM
boguslaw
Senior Member
I think it is important that we look at parametric excitation and harmonics together. Are they related and how ?
06-03-2010, 08:25 PM
#11 (permalink) Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 68
fzzzy
Member
Thanks for starting this thread. It would be excellent if we can come up with a set of replicable experiments that provide anomalous results for us to think about. There is obviously something modern science does not know about electricity. Given the difference between Transverse and Longitudinal waves, and my understanding of Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter, my intuition is that ordinary electrical devices operate using the principals of Light and Heat, and Tesla's Impulse Magnifying Transmitter operates using the principles of Pressure and Sound.
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I have seen many independently invented "Free Energy" devices which look like the Magnifying Transmitter. The core parts are: Capacitor, Spark Gap, Resonantly Tuned Coils. The capacitor and spark gap together produce an Impulse discharge into one coil. The second coil is induced to oscillate, and if the impulses are timed such that the two waves are phase conjugate, the reverberations will reinforce each other and begin to amplify the voltage. This is just like an opera singer shattering a wine glass by finding the resonant frequency. The initial impulse is not strong enough, but when the reverberations are meeting in phase conjugation the power amplifies until the glass shatters. It's crazy that people think the second law of thermodynamics applies to the entire universe. Any system which only used Entropy could never achieve dynamic equilibrium. It's obvious by looking at all of the "intelligent" or organizing processes everywhere around us in humans, plants and animals that syntropy is just as pervasive in the universe as entropy is.
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06-04-2010, 07:38 AM
boguslaw
Senior Member
It's rather like creating a dam in etheric flow which normally is steady state flow.Opening and closing dam makes a waves in ether, that is radiant energy.
06-04-2010, 01:55 PM
wonderful
Junior Member Parametric Oscillator Experiment
IMHO there are interesting experiments in the link posted below. See the section on the self-tuning. Regards Alan Yates' Laboratory - Parametric Oscillator Experiment
06-05-2010, 03:59 AM
Raui
Senior Member
Just a little update, I have uploaded a paper by a man called Nicholas Minorsky to my google docs server. I encourage anyone interested to read it's a good summary of the 60 page report by
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Mandelstam. Parametric Excitation In the next few days I'm going to call up the local Aluminium specialists and get some sheets cut. I'm going to make a capacitive parametric machine. I'll post more on it when I collaborate my thoughts more Is anyone else in the process of making some sort of experimental setup? Raui
06-05-2010, 04:19 AM
Senior Member
I'll tell you how to change resonant frequency and induction parametrically...... through ETHER FORCE Ever heard of a Theremin? The Musical Instrument opperated by your bio-electric field. Funny how a company named Etherwave makes them..... You move your hand around a rod antenna for frequency change, and in and out of a loop antenna for volume change (induction)
06-05-2010, 05:02 AM
Raui
Senior Member
I remember my physics teacher earlier this year talking about a theremin when I was talking to him about electrostatic fields. I don't believe it's the inductance of the machine that changes, it's the capacitance that changes. It is an interesting thought though Raui
06-07-2010, 03:24 AM
Senior Member
sorry, you're right, it changes capacitance.... I've just been caught up in designing one that changes inductance with the antennas (or perhaps reactance) Use the Force!
06-07-2010, 05:44 AM
#18 (permalink)
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Raui
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 279
Alls good, we all get mixed up in our thoughts at times I'm trying to get around to making a video of a setup I'm making which is much like how I'm picturing LtBolo's setup with a cut MOT transformer core, atleast until I can get my aluminum plates which might be a while off bit short on money. Can you go into detail about your antenna setup? Sounds interesting! Raui
06-07-2010, 08:53 AM
Senior Member
i was considering patenting it. but **** it. you heard it here first Open source Frequency is controlled by a bucking conical antenna, Volume is with a bucking toroid. as many turns of wire as you can fit on each That simple. Something tells me if I just make 1 single coil in the shape of a MUSHROOM i can do both at the same time!
Last edited by SuperCaviTationIstic : 06-07-2010 at 08:56 AM.
06-09-2010, 07:55 PM
#20 (permalink) Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 529
broli
Senior Member
I want to share a more complete design of a presentation I made: http://ziosproject.com/NJ/magPres/index.htm I have attached the complete design. The motor looks very similar to the SG bedini motor. But this design is not a motor and should be driven BY a motor perhaps a bedini motor would do fine . Anyway if you get the presentation you should get this design as well. Magnet attracts to core, it saturates the core, coil is energized with low inductance, magnet moves away without any bEMF because the already present current makes sure the core is kept saturated. Then when the magnet is far enough, ie it no longer affects the core, the coil is discharged. In the design you might wonder why the use of a single magnet on the rotor. I did some quick calculations and found that to power an average load like a bulb you'll need quite some time for the coil to discharge completely, so it might be safer to start with one magnet, however multiple coils can
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be employed around the rotor. And since it's cooler to name your inventions I called it the VIG, variable inductance generator. But don't be mistaken this should load the motor running it but imo far less than the huge increase in energy from the changed inductance. It's very easy to make a mechanical energy test between the core and magnet when current is off, and the same test when current is on. This test can be done per degree using a spring weight or so. But I hope to be able to build this design.
Attached Images vig1.jpg (54.2 KB, 128 views)
06-11-2010, 02:20 AM
#21 (permalink) Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 87
LtBolo
Member
Our parametric excitation experiments have continued. It is easy to make power, but so far everything we do loads the motor shaft. It appears that phase is critical, meaning, the parameter change needs to be the correct width to force the phase to where it can work properly. I am also of the mind that the parameter change needs to be very quick and sharp in both directions, and should be as flat as possible when not changing. It may not generate useful power until the parm change is faster than the normal slew rate for that parameter. That becomes an interesting optimization problem though, since there is no single resonant freq, there are two, and the amount of each is a function of the parm change. I am starting to see that the shaft will only unload when you get it exactly right, but I am still pretty sure that the shaft will unload. The fun continues...
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06-11-2010, 09:41 AM
boguslaw
Senior Member
What param are you changing ?

Last edited by boguslaw : 06-11-2010 at 09:52 AM.
06-11-2010, 09:57 AM
#23 (permalink)
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broli
Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 529
Originally Posted by boguslaw What param are you changing ? You have to change it back and forth, in other words : add to it at correct phase and set to original when LC circuit is attempting to convert it back to other side.There would be then only one resonant frequency just pumping action would be going with different frequency but in phase with circuit oscillations. All other ways are worthless, because once you change frequency the input energy is consumed doing this. It's like a poking child swing at the peak of amplitude in correct direction, you cannot do it at any other time. Resonant frequency will not change , only voltage or current = power will accumulate. This thought pattern is too simplistic. I tried to derive the current behavior from a continuous change in inductance and the results are far from trivial. You don't end up with nice sine waves. Imo the best method is abrupt changes. When you see the current is maximum in the inductor you instantly increase inductance not giving the current a chance to react to it. The same the moment you see the current becomes 0 you quickly change to a low inductance. The real issue is increasing inductance without flux change. This is done by saturation of the core material. When current is at max the core is "double" saturated by the current and by an external magnet, at this point you also remove the magnet "quickly". The inductor senses no flux change because the domains that were held aligned by the magnet are now being held by the current. You now end up with a changed LC circuit, one with a higher L. Meaning longer discharge time. The method I proposed doesn't need an LC tank. It's a very discrete solution to the problem. There is some time period when the magnet is leaving the core the current is flowing in the coil waiting for the magnet to leave far enough to discharge. This time portion is lost as joule heating in the resistance. But if the parameters are chosen right it can be a very small time period and thus low energy loss compared to the massive energy gain through the coil discharge.
Last edited by broli : 06-11-2010 at 10:00 AM.
06-11-2010, 04:00 PM
LtBolo
Member Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw What param are you changing ? Inductance, and like broli mentioned, you do not get clean sine waves and most predictions about frequency end up wrong.
06-11-2010, 10:30 PM
#25 (permalink)
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boguslaw
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,905
broli - your way is correct LTBolo - use electromagnet instead of permanent no need to move it...
06-11-2010, 10:31 PM
boguslaw
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBolo Inductance, and like broli mentioned, you do not get clean sine waves and most predictions about frequency end up wrong. why not ? when you pushing child on swing your predictions end up wrong ? sure - if you do it wrongly ...
06-12-2010, 06:58 AM
broli
Originally Posted by boguslaw why not ? when you pushing child on swing your predictions end up wrong ? sure - if you do it wrongly ... Only experiments can shed light on the truth. The problem with changing induction if the core is not saturated is that the induction change is accompanied by a a flux change. This flux change will cause a back emf in the coil trying to lower the current. I don't like to deal with that hence core saturation. The above concept wouldn't work if you couldn't saturate cores. Of course cores have coercive losses that's why it's wise to make a good pick. But I'm confident that the energy gain will be plenty if the inductance difference is high enough.
06-12-2010, 04:54 PM
LtBolo
Member Quote:
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Originally Posted by boguslaw why not ? when you pushing child on swing your predictions end up wrong ? sure - if you do it wrongly ... If this is truly like the swing example, then we are wasting our time. In the swing example, you are decreasing...not increasing...the parameter (pendulum arm) at peak current (speed). The child is fighting centrifugal forces to raise their feet...the system is loaded. In truth, I think that is what we are seeing...an electronic swing.
06-12-2010, 09:32 PM
broli
Senior Member
Here's some crude calculations. First let's consider the complete charge time to be 4*L/R to play it safe. When the magnet is at TDC the inductance of the coil is 0.1mH. Assuming we have a 30V power supply that can supply 5A then we choose R = 6 Ohm so the charge time is 66s. Assuming we use neo magnets and our C core gets perhaps saturated 10 before and after TDC. So we give ourselves 10 of charge time. Using our time constant this leads to a constant rpm of 2500 RPM. After this 10 the influence of the magnet on the core starts to diminish, but also meanwhile current is used as joule heating. Let's assume that 45 later the magnet has no more effect on the core and the coil can be discharged. First let's calculate the joule heating energy. given period = 45, since rpm = 2500 time is then 300s. Joule heat enegy = V*I*t = 0.045J. Notice that I ignored inductive energy input and just put it as a "loss" in joule heating, I'm that confident . So finally now we can discharge our inductor without any external influence. I took the final inductance to be 0.1H and the load 333.33 ohM. First of all lets calculate the energy of the inductor. E=0.5*I^2*L=0.5*25*0.1 = 1.25J. Electric wise the energy out / energy in = 27 or 2700%. Since this needs again time to discharge. 4*L/R = 1.2ms. From our 2500 rpm rotation that is equal to 180 of rotation. So it will take 180 of rotation to discharge our high inductive coil through the 333.33 Ohm load. And to finish it all let's look at the power generation. We know it rotates at 2500 rpm and that every rotation steals 0.045J and gains 1.25J. In average watt values this results in 1.87 Watt of loss and 52.08 Watt gain. And that's just one example of high energy gain from this system. Many parameters can be adjusted to gain any desired cop. I might make a javascript calculator that gives these results automatic given a certain parameters.
Last edited by broli : 06-12-2010 at 09:40 PM.
06-13-2010, 07:44 AM
#30 (permalink)
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boguslaw
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBolo If this is truly like the swing example, then we are wasting our time. In the swing example, you are decreasing...not increasing...the parameter (pendulum arm) at peak current (speed). The child is fighting centrifugal forces to raise their feet...the system is loaded. In truth, I think that is what we are seeing...an electronic swing. I'm not expert but in case of child swing the change is done twice in period and always in the moment of converting kinetic energy into potential. The net result of both changes should be zero (because changes are opposite) but obviously energy is gained in system and it's clear that it is sucked from gravitation field. The same is purely possible with magnetic field as I described in one old post. Magnetic fields always interacts so when magnetic field collapse in the bubble inside large magnetic field this collapse has the energy gains from two collapsing fields no matter how weak is the large field ;-) Normally we don't see this maybe because much larger looses in circuit which consume energy in a form of voltage spike ?
Last edited by boguslaw : 06-13-2010 at 07:46 AM.
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parametric resonance is a time machine, think about it

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What param are you changing ?

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