DEBATE Resolve The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Ja'fari Sect) Is A Polytheist Sect

The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect
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Abu Jaiyana One on One Sunni-Shia Debate AbuJaiyana Ahlus-Sunnah Versus Datu KO 12 Imamite Shia Resolve: The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect. Affirmative: AbuJaiyana Negative : Datu KO Debate Format and Rules: 1. Presentation of Argument by Abujaiyana 2,500 words maximum 2. Presentation of Argument by Datu KO 2,500 words maximum 3. Cross-Examinations a. Datu KO to ask questions to Abujaiyana 7 questions maximum b. Response by Abujaiyan 2,000 words maximum c. Abujaiyana to ask questions to Datu KO - 7 questions maximum d. Response by Datu KO 2,000 words maximum 4. Rebuttal by Abujaiyana 2,000 words maximum 5. Rebuttal by Datu KO 2,000 words maximum 6. Conclusion by Abujaiyana 1,000 words maximum
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7. Conclusion by Datu KO 1,000 words maximum 8. Audience may then participate in the discussion; giving impressions, asking questions, et cetera. Rules: 1. 2. 3. 4.
Abu Jaiyana Pre-debate posts: Datu KO i am accepting the challenge Abu Jaiyana post your argument 15 hours ago Like 1 Abu Jaiyana Which one? Do you agree with the format and the rules too? Thanks 15 hours ago via mobile Like Harballah Islam abangan ko ito at sana hindi laway lang ang pagtanggap sa hamon 15 hours ago Like Datu KO yes, i am accepting everything.. . post your opening statement. 14 hours ago Like Abu Jaiyana I will compose my presentation tonight and i will post it as soon as possible. I will make a one on one thread for our debate, ill tag you there inshaallah. Thanks 14 hours ago via mobile Like Datu KO no problem. . just do it. 14 hours ago Like June 19 at 10:23am Like 1
No Ad hominem of any kind is allowed 24hours limit for posting replies References of evidences must be provided Failure to follow the format and the rules renders the opponent winner in the debate.
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Abu Jaiyana I begin by mentioning the name of Allah, the Exalted, the Most High. I testify that there is no deity worthy to be worshipped but Allah alone without any partner. I further testify that Muhammad ibn Abdullah s.a.w. is Allahs slave and Messenger, the last of the prophetic progeny of Ibrahim a.s. who heavily emphasized the pure faith of Ibrahim (hanif) which known as Tawheed.
After that: Peace be unto those who follow the right guidance. The topic of this debate is to resolve whether or not the 12 Imamite Shiaism, also known as the Jafari sect of Shiaism is a polytheistic religion or sect. It is very important for you dear readers to understand the difference between saying All 12 Imamite Shia are polytheists and 12 Imamite Shiaism is a polytheistic religion or sect: The former is referring to the followers of 12 Imamite religion, while the latter is referring to the 12 Imamite as a religion having distinct belief system and religious principles rooted from its religious texts. It is not allowed to make a blanket label that all 12 Imamite Shia are polytheists (Mushriks) because some of them may not be aware of the polytheistic teachings of their religion; they simply follow it due to many different reasons other than being knowledgeable of the belief system and doctrines of their religion. On the other hand, we can judge whether the religion itself is polytheistic or not by looking at the doctrines and the text in which the religion is based upon. I hope that it is clear to all the readers of this written debate that I am not declaring my opponent to be a polytheist; I am accusing his religion as guilty of polytheism. Whether my opponent is a polytheist (Mushrik) or not, I leave that to you dear readers to decide, and ultimately to Allah s.w.t. WHAT IS SHIRK AND WHAT IS TAWHEED? Shirk is understood as the antithesis of Tawheed. Though shirk is translated as polytheism, in Isla mic theology it is not simply believing that there are more than one God. From the Islamic perspective, a person can be guilty of shirk (polytheism) if he violates any of the aspects of Tawheed (Islamic Monotheism). Aspects of Tawheed. 1. Tawheed ar-Rubbobiyah (Oneness of God in His Lordship) - It is declaring Allah to be One and Unique in His work, Iike creation, sustenance, bringing to life and causing death etc. There are numerous verses in the Quran which talk about this aspect, such as: "Almighty God does not command you to take the angels and prophets as Lords" 3:80 Allah created all things and He is the agent on which all things depend." 39:62 "And no calamity strikes except by Allahs permission." 64:11 2. Tawheed-al- Ibadah (Uluhiyah) (Oneness in Worship) - It is declaring Allah as the Only God to whom all acts worship must be dedicated such Salat (prayers), Zakat, Fasting, supplications vowing etc. Some evidences from the Quran: I have not created jinn and men but to worship Me" 51:56 And your Rabb has decreed that you worship none but Him 17:23 "Do not worship besides Allah that which cannot help or harm you." 21:66 "Put your trust in Allah if you are truly believers." 5:23 "If Allah allows harm to befall you none can remove it except Him." 6:17
3. Tawheed -al-Asma was-Sifat (Oneness in Gods names and attributes) - It is an affirmation of all the Divine Names and Attributes of Allah in a manner that suits His Majesty, as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Some evidences from the Quran: There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All- Seer 42:11 "No tiredness overcomes Him nor sleep" 2:255 There are at least 99 names and attributes of God mentioned in the Quran which we cant post this time due to li mited word count in the format of this debate. It suffices to say that God being the creator doesnt share His absolute attributes to an y of His creation because His creation is limited and finite. By the same logic, the creation, being limited and finite, could never possess any of the absolute and infinite attributes of God. Any act of worship which violates or contradicts any of the aspects of Tawheed mentioned above is considered as shirk (polytheism) even if a person doesn't believe in the existence of multiple Gods. June 19 at 10:25am Like 7
Abu Jaiyana TEXTUAL EVIDENCES FROM S HIAS BEST BOOK Most Shiite sects, especially the 12 Imamite sect, have given their Imams divine attributes of absolute infallibility, knowledge of the past, the future and the unseen, the ability to change destiny and control over the atoms of creation. In doing so they set up rivals who share Allah (SWT)s unique attributes and who, in fact, become gods besides Allah (SWT). We are very much aware that in Shiaism, taqiya (dissimulation) is rampant, therefore, it is necessary that before I quote the specific references from Shia books, its to establish first the reliability of the Shia references according to their renowned scholars so that even if my opponent will denounce what is written in the texts of their books, it would not change the fact that their renowned scholars had strongly testified the reliability of their books. You have to remember that we are not questioning the faith of my opponent, but we are questioning the teachings of my opponents religion according to the texts of their most re liable books. Al Kafi - Al-Kafi fi 'ilm al-din (The Sufficient in the Knowledge of Religion); its author, Thiqat al-Islam al-Shaykh Abu Ja`far Muhammad bin Ya`qub bin Ishaq al-Kulayni (d. 328/329 A.H. /940) Al Hur Al'amily said: " The authors of the Four Books of Shia ( Alkafi , AlIstibsaar ,AlTahzeeb , Mun La YahDuruHu Alfaqeeh ) have testified that the HADITHS OF THEIR BOOKS ARE ACCURATE (saheeh) , firm and well conducted from the roots that all Shia agreed on , and if you consider those scholars ( the authors of the four books ) are reliable then you must accept their sayings and their narrations." Alwasa'el , volume 20, page 104 Al Tabrasi said: "AL KAFI, among the four Shia books is LIKE THE SUN AMONG THE STARS, and who looked fairly would not need to notice the position of the men in the chain of hadiths in this Book, and if you looked fairly you would feel satisfied and sure that the hadiths are firm and accurate. Mustadrak Al Wasa'el, volume 3, page 532 Sharaf'Deen Abdul Hussain Mosawy said: "Al Kafi, Al Istibsaar , Al Tahzeeb and Mun La Yahduruhu Al Faqeeh are Mutawatirah and agreed on the accuracy of its contents ( the Hadiths ) , and Alkafi is the oldest , greatest , best and the most accurate one of them ". The book of Al Muraja'aat , Muraj'ah number 110
Ayatollah Al Khomeini said: Do you think it is enough for our religious life to have its laws summed up in Al Kafi and then placed upon a shelf?" Al Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72 Since we have established the reliability of the best book of the 12 Imamite Shia based on the testimony of their great scholars, we will now examine their book about their belief in their Imams which I consider as a polytheistic belief: The Imams have knowledge of all that was given to the angels and the prophets. Al Kafi volume 1 page 255 It is against Tawheed Al Asma was-Sifat Al Aleem (The All-Knowing). Only Allah possesses such infinite knowledge. The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. Al Kafi volume 1 page 258 It is against Tawheed Al Asma was-Sifat and Tawheed ar-Rubbobiyah because the knowledge about death and the controller of death is solely possessed by Allah s.w.t. The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. Al Kafi vol.1 page 260 It is against Tawheed Al Asma was-Sifat because it is indeed an infinite knowledge, Al Aleem (The All-Knowing). This attribute cant be possessed by any of Gods creation. A finite being cant possess an infinite attribute. No doubt that these words are clear Kufr (Disbelief) and Shirk (Polytheism), because the knowledge of the unseen is only for Allah alone. Al Quran 31: 34. Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs, nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn on the morrow, nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things). June 19 at 10:26am Like 7
Abu Jaiyana CONFIRMATION OF THIS POLYTHEISTIC BELIEF BY THE RENOWNED SHIA IMAMS/GREAT SCHOLARS Ayatollah Khominie said in his book Tahreer Al Waseelah, page 52: Indeed our Imams have an exalted status, a lofty position and a natural Caliphate to which ALL CREATIONS SUBMIT (RUBBOBIYA) In page 94 of the same book: The twelve Imams have lofty position with Al lah. NO CLOSE ANGEL OR BELOVED PROPHET HAS REACHED THAT POSITION. (RUBBOBIYA) Shia Imam Al Khoie said in his book Misbah Al Fuqaha quoting Al Majlisi: There is no doubt regarding their guardianship over the creation as is clear from the narrations fo r they are the reason behind the creation. THROUGH THEM THE CREATION IS BROUGHT ABOUT AND FROM THEM LIFE COMES FORTH. HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THEM, THE CREATION WOULD NOT BE BROUGHT IN TO EXISTENCE. This wilayah is similar to that Allahs power rover the creation. Miraat Al Uqool Fe Sharh Al Akbar aalir -Rasul Volume 2 page 90 by Al Majlisi. (RUBBOBIYA) Muhammad Rida Al Muzaffar said in his book Faith in Shia Islam page 32: We believe that like the Prophet, an Imam must be infallible, THAT IS TO SAY INCAPABL E OF MAKING ERRORS OR DOING WRONG EITHER INWARDLY OR OUTWARDLY FROM HIS BIRTH TO HIS DEATH, EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY because THE IMAMS ARE THE PRESERVERS OF ISLAM AND IT IS UNDER THEIR PROTECTION (AL -
ASMA WAS-SIFAT) In Bihar al Anwar, Imam Musa Kadhim is reported to have said: DUE TO US , ADAM WAS FORGIVEN, DUE TO US, AYUB GOT IN TROUBLE, AND DUE TO US, YAQUB HAD TO SUFFER , AND DUE TO US , YUSUF WAS IMPRISONED, AND DUE TO US, THEY WERE RELIEVED OF THEIR TROUBLES, AND DUE TO US, THE SUN SHINES, AND THESE ARE OUR NAMES WHICH ARE WRITTEN ON THE THRONE. Bihar al Anwar, Vol. 26, p. 257 (RUBBOBIYA) June 19 at 10:26am Like 9
Abu Jaiyana SHIRK IN SHIA PRACTICES: Calling Those Who Have Passed Away For Help. Mustadrak al-Wasaa'il of al-Tabrasi, page 310: Then you place your right cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times in prostration, "O Muhammad, O Alee, O Alee, O Muhammad, suffice me (in my needs) for you are both sufficers, and aid me for you are both my helpers." And you place your left cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times, "Reach me (to deliver me)" and you repeat it many times, and you say, "(I seek) rescue, rescue, rescue" until the soul is disconnected, then you raise your head and through His generosity, Allah will fulfil your needs, if He wills. (AL- IBADAH) Almost all scholarly works of Shia scholars related to asking help from those in the graves unanimously agree to this form of worship. In the famous paganish annual ritual of the 12 Imamites, they torture themselves by wailing, lashing their bodies with sharp materials, some of them even hack th eir backs with a samurai or a sword while calling Al Husain Ya Husain repeatedly until the ritual is over. (AL- IBADAH) These paganish forms of worship have no basis either in the Quran or in the authentic traditions of Prophet Muhammad. We can only find the like of these types of worship in other pagan cults and in Catholicism. It is clear an act of idol worship. Didnt Allah teach us, and made obligatory on every Muslim to ask only Allah for help in our acts of worship? Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help 1: 5 Didnt Allah explained to us that everything besides Him is merely His slaves? Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194 Didnt Allah tell us that He is the All-Knowing; He is extremely close to us and He hears and knows what we conceal and what we reveal in our hearts? First, there is no sound basis that people in the graves can help those who supplicate or ask help from them, let alone become intermediaries between the supplicant and Allah. Second, there is no sound tradition of Prophet Muhammad teaching people to supplicate to Allah via people of the graves. In fact, the reason why Prophet Muhammad forbade the Muslims from visiting the graves in the beginning of Islam is because of fear that they will do their pagan practices during the time of ignorance. Third, it is extremely irrational to ask someone in the grave to talk to Allah in our behalf when Allah knows, hears, and understands what we wanted to be said in our behalf. Therefore, even without asking any textual proof for this paganish practice, our intellect would tell us that this type of worship makes no sense at all. We can see that there are numerous corroborating evidences and they are consistent from the text of their best book and their practices, rituals, and supplications that 12 Imamite Shiaism is a polytheistic religion.
My opponent may contest the authenticity of the textual evidences I provided above, however the burden of proof that they in fact untrue is upon him because I already have provided the testimony of the great scholars about their best book, and it is corroborated by the paganish Shia way of worship such as calling the people in the graves, asking help from them which definitely resembles the type of worship of other pagan religion and of Catholicism. If those textual evidences are untrue, then my opponent has to explain why we still see the reflection of those beliefs about their Imams in their religious rituals and other form of worship such as talking or asking help from the people of the grave, in their annual ashura, in their supplications, ect. We would like to see if he can produce textual evidences from their b est books prohibiting those types of worship and rituals. The renowned Shia scholars/ayatollah confirm the texts in Al Kafi, and their belief about the 12 Imams If my opponent cant provide any textual proof from their best books which deny my textual ev idences and prohibit the paganish acts of worship mentioned above, then the accusation that the 12 Imamite Shiaism is a polytheistic religion must be true. Thank you. June 19 at 10:27am Like 11
Abu Jaiyana Datu KO, you have 24 hours to post your presentation. Thank you. June 19 at 10:28am Like 8
Datu KO ok just wait Abu Jaiyana and tomorrow i will post my openning statement June 19 at 7:12pm Like
Abu Jaiyana Thanks for your info Datu Ko. You have 24 hours to post your presentation starting from the time I posted my presentation. That's the agreed rule on the time limit for posting our responses (rule #2). Take your time sir June 19 at 8:12pm via mobile Edited Like 5
Datu KO I begin in the most exalted name of Allah (swt) and salutation and invocation of peace from Allah for the noblest prophet, the last and the seal of all the prophets the master of them all, nabi Mohammad (sawa), including the imams and all the saints and divine guides sent to guide humanity and who was sent with the Quran as the last Divine Revealed Book of Allah after all the divine books sent to bygone prophets (as) were corrupted and interpolated by the majority followers of the prophets of their respective times and period when that prophet/s were gone away for their heavenly abode. I am also sending my salutation of peace to the pure and spotless progeny of prophet Mohammad (sawa) who were made conjoint to the Quran by the prophet, who was not speaking of his own desire but whatever he says are inspiration from Almighty Allah, as testified to by Allah in the surah Al- Najm of the Holy Quran. The pure and spotless Ahlulbayt (as) of the prophet were the only legitimate authority/ies to int erpret the laws of Islam enshrined in the Quran and nobody else as the prophet
declared it in so numerous an occasions being compared by him to the ark of noah, the gate of repentance for the remission of sins, the door to the city of his knowledge, the l iving and speaking quran, like himself and as the two most precious things (thaqalayn) he left behind for his ummah for their ultimate guidance and etc June 19 at 11:29pm Like 3
Datu KO Islam is clear, natural and straight path to Allah (swt). Paraphrasing the prophets words, Islam is easy religion and it is the interpretation of the (illegitimate) interpreters that makes it difficult. Thereby, all questions, pertains to whatever subject/s, may it be juristic, interpretations, legitimacy, ideology or whatever, can be easily as well correctly and truthfully address by means of correct answer to this fundamental question: Are you following the true successor of the prophet, the legitimate designated Divine Authority of Allah on earth after the prophet was gone for his heavenly abode? The correct answer to this fundamental question will naturally settle all forms of dispute and consequently, disagreement will end. As to the topic of this debate, whether The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) (as the framer of this debate insinuated) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect. this issue is very easy to resolve by telling my opponent that the twelve imams from the Ahlulbayt (as) of the prophet (sawa) were the legitimate divine authority designated as the successor of the prophet whose interpretation of the deen of islam is final and bindings and our fundamentals of faith and practices are derived from their teachings. The prophet (sawa) said about Imam Ali (as), the first and the greatest imam of them all: " You shall inform my nation about the truth and what they dispute after me" (Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112, who wrote this is an authentic Hadith according to the stipulation of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim). [This would mean that the chain of narrators are considered to be authentic as stipulated by Bukhari and Muslim]) The prophet (sawa) of Islam left the word when the revelation of the Holy Quran was completed but before leaving this world he (sawa) introduced his successors and named them one by one as the imam of the ummah to continue his wilayah over humanity as he was the greatest wali of Allah over his creations, the first of them, as his successors, was imam ali and the last being the living imam, Imam al- mahdi (atfs) or the twelve imams from his pure and spotless progeny which the prophet decl ared as the conjoint of the Holy Quran as the two weighty things he left behind for the ultimate guidance of his ummah after him. June 19 at 11:30pm Like 2
Datu KO In this connection the prophet declared: Sahih Muslim Version Now to our purpose: O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death ) from my Lord and I, in response to Allahs call, (would bid goodbye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my Household; I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. ( Muslim, Sahih, vol. 4, p. 1803, hadith no. 2408 (Abd al -Baqi Edition Abdul-Hamid Siddiqui (trans.), Sahih Muslim (English Translation), vol. 4, hadith no. 5920.) Sunan Al-Ttirmidhi Version Verily, I am leaving among you two weighty things to which if you hold fast, you shall never go astray. One is greater than the other: the Book of Allah, which is the cord extending from the heaven to the earth and my progeny, the members of my Household. These two will never separate from each other until they meet me at the Pond {hawd} (of Kawthar). Be careful as to how you will behave toward them after me.
(Tirmidhi, Sunan, vol. 5, p. 663, hadith no. 37788) The above sunni authentic traditions supports the belief of the followers of the Ahlulbayt (as) that Imamate succeeds Prophethood, and is there to protect the Deen. Of course, we are very much cognizant of the difference between a Nabi and Imam, the Imam succeed the prophet to protects the Sharia brought by the last Nabi, Muhamm ad (s) by giving its correct interpretation, meaning and purports both manifest and esoteric meaning of the revelation of Allah. So imamate means to lead; the Imam is that person who leads you by the mandate of Allah by giving correct and true teaching of Islam derived fromm correct interpretation of the Quran. The prophet said to imam ali: Ali, I fought for the revelation of the Quran and after me youll fight for its interpretation (Sunni references: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p122, who said this tradition is genuine based on the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim. al-Dhahabi, also records it in his Talkhis al-Mustadrak and admitted that it is genuine according to the standard of the two Shaikhs. Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, p40 Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 32-33 Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p155 Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p133 ) June 19 at 11:32pm Like 2
Datu KO This prophetic lines give more meaning to the above assertion that the imams interpretation of the Quran may it be non agreeable or unpalatable to many but the correct one that must be followed irregardless of all considerations and the contrary is obvious: Allamah Taftazani stated: Imamate is an empire in terms of the vicegerency of Prophet (s), for the affairs that pertain to the world and religion (Sharah Maqasid, Volume 5 page 232) Following the imams from the family of the prophet is not a polytheism but a Divine Doctrine enshrined in the Quran and the authentic ahadith of the prophet. Imamate in the Quran The institution of imamah is founded by Almighty Allah . The Quran clearly mentioned in chapter 2:124 And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." The above quranic ayah clearly demonstrates with no ambiguity that imamate was granted by Allah to Abraham(as) and to the progeny of Abraham(as) who was chosen and purified slave of Allah and not with the dhulm translated as evil doer in the above verse. Prophet Mohammad (sawa) and the Twelve (12) Imams (as) were from Abrahams (as) direct descendants or trunk line of his lineage and were purified thoroughly as the verses of the Quran testifies and th e authentic sunnah of the prophet (as). Imamate in the prophets sunnah (as recorded by sunni muhadithin) The grand Mufti of Constantinople (Qustantinya), and the Chief Justice of Ottoman Caliphate, Shaykh Suleiman Qundozi alHanafi records this narration in Yanabi al-Muwaddat, chapter 76, pages 685-686: Hamwayni reports from Mujahid who narrates from Ibe Abbas that a Jew named Nathal came to Prophet [saww] and after asking about Tauhid and Nabuwat, he said: Let me know about your successor; who is th e person? Every Prophet does have a successor. Our Prophet Musa bin Imran (as) had nominated Yoshe bin Nun as his successor. Prophet [saww] replied: My successor is Ali ibne Abi Talib. After him my two grandsons Hasan and Hussein. And then nine Imams fr om the progeny of Hussein. The Jew said: O Muhammad! Let me know their names.
Prophet [saww] replied: When Hussein passes away, his son Ali will be Imam, and after him, his son Muhammad will be the Imam, and he will be succeeded by his son Jafar and after him, his son Musa will be the Imam. After Musas demise his son Ali will be the Imam and after Ali his son Muhammad will be the Imam, and after him, his son Ali will be the Imam, and after Ali his son Hasan will be the Imam who will be followed by his son Mehdi. These are the twelve. The Jew said: Let me know about the deaths of Ali, Hasan and Hussein. Prophet [saww] replied: Ali will be struck on his head and martyred, Hasan will be poisoned, whereas Hussein will be slaughtered. The Jew asked: What will be their destiny? Prophet [saww] replied: They will at my status in paradise. the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his progeny, while holding `Ali's neck, "This is the Imam of the righteous, the slayer of the debauchees; victorious is whoever supports him, forsaken (by Allah) is whoever abandons him." He (pbuh) raised his voice while saying the last phrase. al-Hakim as narrated by Jabir on page 129, Vol. 3, of mustadrak we can cite and post hundred and one more ahadith from the prophet purporting the appointment of his pure and spotless progeny as imaams to succeed him but the rules does not warrant it and this one is suffice for our purpose. Necessity of following the imam from the ahlulbayt of the prophet The Holy Prophet (s ) has told the signs about his Ahlulbayt in these meanings, because just like Holy Prophet (s), they are amnesty for the inhabitants of earth as well. There are several hadiths on this topic, from amongst them I would like to cite a few. Ahmed in another hadith from Holy Prophet (s) recorded: If the stars go away (i.e., become non -existent), the inhabitants of the heavens will be destroyed, and if my Ahlul-Bayt goes away (i.e., all die), the inhabitants of the earth will be destroyed. In another tradition which Hakim has termed Sahih on the conditions of Shaykhain says: the stars help prevent the inhabitants of the earth from being drowned, and my Ahlul -Bayt is the protector of my community against disputes. Therefore, whichever groups among the Arabs opposes my Ahlul-Bayt, shall be split up by dissensions and will become (a party of) Satan. Sawaiq al Muhriqah, page 513 & 514 What better explanation can be there other than given by the Holy Prophet (s) himself about the necessity of the presence of Imam on earth who is Allah (swt)s Hujjah! This is why the demise of the twelfth Imam will bring the end of the world, and this is one of the reasons that he should be alive. In another place, Ibn Hajar Makki writes: The Ahlul Bayt, whom the Holy Prophet has designated as an amnesty are the learned men among his family, since guidance can be attained only through them. They are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction. If the stars are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come Sawaiq al Muhriqah, page 514 & 515 On page 510 we also read: The traditions which describe the necessity of adherence to the Ahlu l Bayt until the Day of Judgment also imply that the existence of the righteous members of the family of the Prophet will NOT terminate until the Day of Judgment. Because the Book of Allah tells the same and in this respect they (Ahlulbayt) are amnesty for the inhabitants of earth Sawaiq al Muhriqah, page 510 Worthy of note is this Hadith in Mishkat al Masabih: I heard the Apostle of Allah say Islam shall not cease to be glorious up to twelve Caliphs, every one of them being from the Quraish. (And in a narration) The affairs of men will not cease to decline so long as twelve men will rule over them, every one of them coming from Quraish. And in a narration: The religion will continue to be established till the hour comes as there are twelve Caliphs over them, everyone of them coming from the Quraish
Mishkat al Masabih, Volume 4 page 576 Hadith 5 June 19 at 11:34pm Like 3
Datu KO From the foregoing argument and facts presented, the imams from the Ahlulbayt of the Prophet is the continuity of the wilayah of the prophet over the entire creations being the bearer of glad tidings and a warner to humanity (lin-nass) and the mercy (rahmatan) to entire creations (lil al-ameen), the ahlulbayt on the otherhand, as the legitimate divine successor of the prophet (sawa) and being as the wali and the ulil amr after him mentioned by the Q uran and interpreted by the prophet, whose obedience is emphasized in the holy Quran as equal to the obedience to Allah and his prophet. Your wali are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship) (Holy Quran 5:55). O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Holy Quran 4:59) The shiah ahlulbayt/imamiyah/shiah ithna asharih derived their fundamentals and praactices of faith from the teachings of the pure ahlulbayt of the prophet and are following the pure and spotless imams from the prophets family as the holy Quran and authentic prophets Sunnah exhorted and enjoined them to do. Anyone accusing us (follower of the twelve imams) of polytheism because of our conviction to the holy family of the holy prophet is either ignorant or misled like my opponent who has freely putting his own interpretation with the meaning and interpretation of Ahlulbayts practices as if an authority having a clear and legitimate appointment from Allah (swt), the messenger and the imaams in doing so. The Quran exhorts us to obey Allah, obey the messenger and the Ulil Amr. According to the prophet, again, the ulil amr refers to the imams from his household. . . therefore following their teaching as the imamiyah shiah does, is nothing but fulfillment of Divine Order/s and in no way a form of polytheism. Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Falsehood is bound to vanish June 19 at 11:35pm Like 4
Datu KO kung sumubra putulan mo na lamang Abu Jaiyana! June 19 at 11:35pm Like
Datu KO or pweidng sa last portion ka na lamang mag concentrate! June 19 at 11:38pm Edited Like
Datu KO just post what is the next part since you made the rule of this debate! June 19 at 11:38pm Like

Montaser Hassan Pg sumubra b ang words na nagamit ng isa sa inyo eh magng ground ng pgkakatalo (sa iny0ng talastasan)? Thursday at 12:50am via mobile Like 2
Montaser Hassan Pcnxa sa pagsingit Datu ko, next ata jan eh cr0ss examinati0n. U cn ask questi0ns na d susubra sa pito sa iy0ng katunggali... Thursday at 12:54am via mobile Like 1
Abu Jaiyana Datu KO, you have exceeded the word count limit. Under our rules, rule# 4: ( 4. Failure to follow the format and the rules renders the opponent winner in the debate.) 2. Presentation of Argument by Datu KO 2,500 words maximum Your presentation word count reached almost 2,600. So under rule #4, you lost in this debate. I will overlook your violation this time.Next time, try to follow the format and the rules. We are representing our respective religious groups here. It is not a good attitude to show that we cant follow clear and simple rules. You may now proceed to your cross-examination questions: (3. Cross-Examinations : a. Datu KO to ask questions to Abujaiyana 7 questions maximum) You have 24 hours to post your questions starting from the time you posted your presentation. Thanks Thursday at 6:56am Like 4 Datu KO cross examination for Abu Jaiyana 1. what is your criteria in judging the shiah ithna ashe'ri as polytheist? is it your own opinion or based from the opinion of your learned men written in your own books? 2. if it is your opinion or opinion of your own learned men, then, do you or your learned men have written authority from Allah or from the prophet, as an assurance of the correctness of such opinion, to declare our faith as polytheist? (PLEASE FURNISH US THE COPY/IES OF THAT AUTHORIZATION! IF NOT THEN EVEN AN AUTHENTIC HADITH OR AHADITH FROM THE PROPHET NAMING THEM AS LEGITIMATE INTERPRETERS WHOSE OPINION ARE DIVINE WORDS) 3. are you more than the scores of sunni ulama who uphold our faith as correct? can you show us your proof that these sunni ulama are nothing and your opinion about us is the correct one? 4. do you know what is polytheism in shiah faith in contrast to that of the sunni wahabbi concept or opinion about polythiesm?
5. can you produce from our book/s where we are labelled as polytheist? (because your opinon and the opinion of your own learned men, for us, is good for nothing.) 6. where did you get your translations of your citation from our books such as the book of imam khomini'e and the al-kafi? is it from our shiah translators or from the translation of those of your own translators? if it is from our translators kindly give us their names? 7. can you also show us from the qur'an and the authentic sunnah of the prophet, where it was categorically declared that "the shiah ithna asheri's followers are polytheists not just your own opinion and that of your own leaned men's opinion? GOODLUCK.... Thursday at 9:04pm Edited Like 5
Abu Jaiyana Thank you Datu KO for your questions. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #1 It seems that you did not understand what I said in my presentation that there is a difference between declaring/accusing a shia follower i.e. 12 Imamite Shia as polytheists, and declaring/accusing the 12 Imamite Shiai sm (Jafari Shia sect) as guilty of polytheism. I am not declaring or accusing you as a person of being a polytheist. I am accusing your religion to be guilty of polytheism. So try to distinguish the difference between the religion or sect being followed, and the follower of that religion or sect. A 12 Imamite Shiee or Shia is not the same as 12 Imamite Shiaism. If I put it to you simple analogy, a Catholic is a person who follows Catholicism, while Catholicism is the religion being followed by the Catholics. I hope that that is clear to you now. My criteria in accusing your religion to be polytheistic are the Quran, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, as well as the understanding of the Ulama of the Ummah about the concept of Tawheed. I provided references from your own book which Shia scholars consider as the best hadith book, Al Kafi, the teachings and beliefs of your scholars with regards to your Imams, and the practices of the Shia people in their rituals and other acts of worship. These Shia belief about their Imams as written in your best book which are corroborated by the teachings of your reputable scholars, and the Shia practices and rituals which we consider as polytheistic based on the ayat of the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. are explained in detail in my presentation. Please read it again. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #2 Since the criteria I used in accusing your religion to be polytheistic, then your question #2 doesnt stand. However, I would like to point out the flaw of your argument here. You seem to demand a special written letter from Allah or from the Prophet s.a.w commanding the Ulama to give you that letter which says that 12 Imamite Shiaism known as the Jafari Shia sect is a polytheistic religion. This type of argument is seriously flawed because the Quran is not an encyclopedia of all religions wherein you can find a separate article for each sect or religion. The Quran highlights the basic principles about the correct belief about Allah, how He is uniquely one, and how Allah instructed us to worship Him. These are further clarified and demonstrated in the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad so that no one could put forward an excuse on the Day of Judgment that he/she didnt understand what Allah wanted him/her to do in the Quran. If we follow your principle that there has to be a special letter of instruction from Allah or from the Prophet ordering the Muslims (Ahlus-Sunnah) to tell the Shia that their sect or religion is polytheism so that by then will consider it as an authoritative, then this would be the problems: 1. We cant say that Catholicism is a polytheistic religion though they do worship their Saints because there is no ayah in t he Quran or a special letter from Allah to the Muslims which says Catholicism is a polytheistic religion.
2. We also cant say that Buddhism, Hinduism et cetera to be polytheistic religions because there is no ayah in the Quran or a special letter from Allah to the Muslims which says Buddhism and Hinduism are polytheistic religions and you would not accept any tafseer from the Ulama. 3. The statement of Allah in 4:59, If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination would be useless because we can we cant follow the example of the Prophet in refuting the belief system of the Mushrikun because according to your principle, there has to be an authorization letter from Allah before you would accept what the Ulama are saying. 4. The stories of the People of the past narrated by Allah in the Quran and His refutation against them would be useless and meaningless except mere story-telling because according to your principle what the Ulama has understood about the message or moral lesson from those stories are mere interpretations 5. The instruction of the Prophet that we should convey his message even if what we know is a single ayah would be useless and meaningless because you would not accept any evidence unless there is an authorization letter from the Prophet s.a.w. So your principle to defend your side in this debate creates more problems for you than defense. Try to think first whether you are argument would lighten the problem or would it make the problem become worse. Friday at 10:38am Like 3
Abu Jaiyana ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #3 I dont know who those Sunni Ulama are that you are talking about because you didnt mention their names in your question so I cant comment about them. Moreover, I cited the specific ayat in the Quran as evidences that the Shia belief about their 12 Imams as written in their best book Al Kafi and confirmed by their scholars is polytheistic in nature and I provided my rationale why it is so. Your responsibility as the negative side of this debate is to refute my evidences and my rationale so that my accusation that your religion is polytheistic would be proven false, otherwise if there is no logical refutation is provided from your side, the accusation must be true. So dont bring red-herrings here; its a fallacy. Dont refute someone or anyone for that matter which are not mentioned in my argument because the real issue here is not who made the accusation. The real issue in this debate is whether or not my accusation that your religion is polytheistic is true based on the evidences and the rationale given. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #4 I dont want to make speculations about your understanding of polytheism (shirk) in Shiaism. In fact, I already have written that as a question for you in my cross-exam because you didnt give any definition of polytheism in your presentation which you should have because it is the main issue in this debate; in debates, it is considered as failure to state or failure to define your term, and it is a fallacy because no one can validly argue about the meaning of a term or word without defining that word first.
I have read about the shia understanding of polytheism. I has something to do with wilaya to Ali, but I didnt go down to that point first because I dont want to make a strawman fallacy i.e. saying that this and that are the Shia concept where in fact it is not. In my presentation, I gave the meaning of polytheism (shirk) and Tawheed (oneness of Allah), and from those meanings, I made major premises by comparing the ayat in the Quran and the text of your best Book Al Kafi, and from there I made a conclusion that your religion is indeed guilty of polytheism. Therefore my arguments in my presentation is very COGENT. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #5 The Catholic bible of any of the books of the Catholics doesnt label them as polytheists, but that doesnt change the fact that they worship their saints alongside with God, therefore they are polytheists. The same way in the case of Hinduism and Buddhism, none of their books says that they are polytheists. So, can we Muslims validly say that Catholicism, Hinduism, and Buhddism are not polytheistic religions because none of their books labelled them as polytheists? Of course not! The fact that their books and their teachings allows them to worship someone or something besides Allah or alongside with Allah, that what make us conclude that their religion is polytheistic or guilty of polytheism. In the same way, though there is no Shia book which labels you as polytheists, that doesnt change the fact that your book and your practices and rituals are polytheistic in nature. So having no text from your books that says you Shia are polytheists is not a good excuse that you are not guilty of polytheism. A thief may not admit that he is a thief, but that doesnt mean that his act of stealing the properties of other people makes him not a thief. He is still a thief regardless of whether he confesses or not. With regards to your saying that, my opinion or the opinion of the Ulama about your polytheistic belief is good for nothing for you, is IRRELEVANT. I am not here to convert you to revert from polytheism to Tawheed. I am here to prove to the audience/readers that your religion is guilty of polytheism whether you like it or not. The admonition/argument of the Prophets against the pagan/polytheistic practices of their respective people meant nothing to those mushrikun right? Does that mean that what the Prophets had said is false because their words mean nothing to those Mushriks? I dont think so. So your argument doesnt hold water so to speak. Friday at 10:40am Like 2
Abu Jaiyana ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #6 I provided the exact references of those quotations in my presentation; I was not making things up. The translations I gave are available online; I have not yet known any Shia apologist questioning the proper translation of those texts, except you though they were posted in many Sunni-Shia fora. So, if you are really doubting the proper translation of those references, then you are very much welcome to provide the correct translation from any Shia translator. I already explained in my presentation that the reason why I corroborated those texts with your practices and rituals is because even if you deny those texts by way of TAQIYA, the examples of you paganish rituals which I cited as evidences would still validate my accusation that your religion is guilty of polytheism. ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION #7 This question is very similar in concept with your question #3.
I already have explained in detail the flaw if this line of argument there. If you are asking whether there is an ayah such this one: Surah Al Mushrikun, verse # 1: The Shia Ithna Ashari are mushriks My answer is no, there is no such kind of ayah in the Quran. We could not find also find an ayah like this one: Surah Al Mushrikun, verse # 1: The Catholics are mushriks 2. The Hindus and the Buddhists are mushriks as well What we could find in the Quran are ayats such as l ike these: "Almighty God does not command you to take the angels and prophets as Lords" 3:80 And your Rabb has decreed that you WORSHIP NONE BUT HIM 17:23 There is NOTHING LIKE UNTO HIM, and He is the All -Hearer, the All-Seer 42:11 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help 1: 5 Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194 Those ayat are only few of the many ayat which are used as ground for accusing your religion to be polytheistic. Refute them if you can. Thank you. Friday at 10:41am Like 2
Abu Jaiyana CROSS-EXAMINATION FOR Datu KO 1. Datu KO, you didnt explain in your presentation what the word shirk means. WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OR UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE WORD SHIRK? 2. Datu KO, you claim to be a convert to Shiaism from Ahlus-Sunnah and you said that you already have read the books of the Ahlus-Sunnah. You may be familiar with the distinction of the so-called muamalat, and ibadat. What is your shia definition of IBADAH, and do you cons ider MAKING SUPPLICATION as an act of ibadah? Please explain why or why not. 3. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY SHIA REPUTABLE SCHOLAR WHO SAYS THAT THERE IS A SHIA HADITH BOOK WHICH IS BETTER AND MORE RELIABLE THAN THE AL KAFI OF KULAYNI? If your answer is yes, please give us the reference. 4. What is your understanding of the ayah in Surah Al Fatiha: 5:1 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. Does the above ayah ALLOW calling anyone for help other than Allah in ANY ACT OF WORSHIP? 5. Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; call upon them, and let them listen to your
prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194 Prophet Muhammad said in Sahih Bukhari Dont exaggerate in praising me like what the Christians do to the son of Mary (Jesus), but say that I am Allahs slave and Messenger (abduhu wa rasuluh). Based on the above quotations, DO YOU CONSIDER your 12 IMAMS AS SLAVES OF ALLAH as well? 6. Do you agree with my contention that ALLAH KNOWS, HEARS, SEES, AND UNDERSTANDS BETTER THAN ANY OR ALL OF YOUR IMAMS in their graves when people ask any of them for help? If your answer is NO, please explain why. 7. In my presentation, I argued that the attributes of Allah is INFINITE (Absolute, limitless) and it cant be shared by any of His creation including your Imams simply because the creation of Allah is FINITE (temporary, limited). Do agree with that a temporary or limited being cant possess an absolute attribute? If your answer is NO, please explain why. Thanks Friday at 10:45am Like 5
Abu Jaiyana Datu KO, You have 24 hours to post your answers to my cross-exam questions. Please be reminded about the format and the rules in this debate. Thank you. Friday at 10:48am Like 1
Datu KO thank you Abu Jaiyana for your question. here is my answers to your cross examination questions 1. Datu KO, you didnt explain in your presentation what the word shirk means. WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OR UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE WORD SHIRK? Answer: it is your problem abu jaiyina to know what is our definition of shirk. You accused us so the burden of proof lies on your shoulder to prove that allegation. If i explain it to you, readers may not understand that you are engaging in a fishing expedition. But my silent on that issue exposed your ignorance.. that you knew nothing about us. But if you wish to know it then we can help you in any way possible. I am not your teacher. Secondly the shiah concept of Shirk is not the subject of this debate. Better luck next time. Friday at 7:40pm Like 4
Datu KO 2. Datu KO, you claim to be a convert to Shiaism from Ahlus-Sunnah and you said that you already have read the books of the Ahlus-Sunnah. You may be familiar with the distinction of the so-called muamalat, and ibadat. What is your shia definition of IBADAH, and do you consider MAKING SUPPLICATION as an act of ibadah? Again abu jaiyina, the answer is provided above. but for your enlightenment the definition of both terms are hereby
provided. the word dua literally means calling and invoking while the term ibadah means worship, and these two terms should not be considered synonymous. The term dawah (a derivative of dua) has been used in some Quranic verses but not in the sense of ibadah. For example: He (Nuh) said, My Lord! Indeed I have summoned my people night and day. (Surah Nuh 71:5.) Can we say that what Nuh (Noah) (a) meant is: I have worshipped my people night and day? As such, it cannot be said that dawah and ibadah are synonyms, or that to seek help from the Prophet or a righteous person is to worship him; for, dawah or nida {call} has more general meaning than worship. Friday at 7:41pm Like 2
Datu KO 3. DO YOU KNOW OF ANY SHIA REPUTABLE SCHOLAR WHO SAYS THAT THERE IS A SHIA HADITH BOOK WHICH IS BETTER AND MORE RELIABLE THAN THE AL KAFI OF KULAYNI? If your answer is yes, please give us the reference. This question is out of topic. And I am not obliged to answer it because al-kafis position is not the question of this debate and as a shiah of ahlulbayt we know our books better than any other person belonging to other sects like sunni and wahabbism. Secondly, nowhere in al- kafis record where the shiah of ahlulbayt is labeled as polytheist neither the usul and furu of our faith were pronounced by the al -kafi as such. Abu jaiyinas problem is his wanton desire to put himself as an authority to interpret what is al-kafi and what is in it using his own opinion as an standard. I am sorry but we have our own authority/ies the first of whom was the Haron of prophet M ohammad and the 11 imams in the prophets house and no more room for another one like you. Friday at 7:42pm Like 3
Datu KO 4. What is your understanding of the ayah in Surah Al Fatiha: 5:1 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. Does the above ayah ALLOW calling anyone for help other than Allah in ANY ACT OF WORSHIP? Lets the Holy Quran answers this question as the basis of my understanding for that ayah: Quran 4:59 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If y e differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. Quran 5:35 O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means (wasilah) of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper. And Quran 3:31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Shiah worshipping Allah alone and no other as taught by the prophet and the ulil amr (12 imams) and not by any illegitimate scholars. We dont worship the imams but we obeyed them because they are the divine authority and we called them because, like the prophet, they are the wasilah as taught by the quran and the authentic sunnah and not as ALLAH Friday at 7:43pm Like 4

Datu KO .1 Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194 Prophet Muhammad said in Sahih Bukhari Dont exaggerate in praising me like what the Christians do to the son of Mary (Jesus), but say that I am Allahs slave and Messenger (abduhu waras uluh .) Based on the above quotations, DO YOU CONSIDER your 12 IMAMS AS SLAVES OF ALLAH as well ? Yes, the prophets and the imams are all slaves of Allah, but as a divine successors of the prophet they were conferred with favors which were not granted to an ordinary slave like you and me. Just to refresh your memory; they are the ulil amr whose obedience is like obedience to the prophet and Allah (swt) and the wasilah who is the means of approach to Allah according to prophets authentic traditions explani ng the above cited verses in question number 4 . Friday at 7:44pm Like 3
Datu KO 6. Do you agree with my contention that ALLAH KNOWS, HEARS, SEES, AND UNDERSTANDS BETTER THAN ANY OR ALL OF YOUR IMAMS in their graves when people ask any of them for help? If your answer is NO, please explain why. this question is wrong. The imams are not equal to Allah as I consistently expounding in my presentation and in answers to your cross examination questions. When you call them it is because the quran and the prophet declared them as the ulil amr whose obedience is a duty imposed to all creations and as a wasilah who are granted the power of intercession as the successor of the prophet which the quran declares: Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded Allah for forgiveness, and the Apostle had pleaded for forgiveness for them, they would have surely found Allah all-clement, all-merciful. ( Surah an-Nisa 4:64.) The prophet said : . I have been granted five things and I have been granted intercession which I have reserved for my ummah. (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol. 1, p. 301; Sahih al-Bukhari (Egypt), vol. 1, p. 91). The prophet said about his ahlulbayt: Behold! The similitude of my family, Ahlul Bayt, is like that of the Ark of Noah: The one who embarks it, will have saved himself, and the one who turns away from it, is doomed. (See Mustadrak, Al-Haakim, Vol. 3, Page 151) And The prophet said: Acknowledgement of Aali Muhammad means salvation from Hellfire, The love of Aali Muhammad is an easy pass for crossing the Bridge [on Judgment Day] and obedience to Aali Muhammad is a protection from Doom's Day (Al-Awsat of Al-Tibrani and Ih'yaa Al-Mayyet of Sayooti, and Al Sawaa'iq of Ibn Hajar) The Shafi'ite scholar Ghazzali has allotted a special section in his book Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din concerning the manners of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s) in order to repent and seek forgiveness from Allah. He writes: The Prophet should be made the means (wasilah) and the intercessor (shafi'), and with face turned towards the tomb, the
pilgrim should implore Allah for the sake and position of the Prophet with the words: "O Allah, indeed You have said, Had they, who had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would have certainly found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful (Holy Qur'an 4:64); O Allah, surely we have heard Your words and we obey Your command, by coming to Your Prophet to seek his intercession with You for our sins; how burdensome and heavy (are sins) on our backs! We repent of slipperiness, we confess our wrongs and our faults, accept our repentance for his sake, make Your Prophet intercessor for us, and exalt us for the sake of his position and his rights with You." Al-Ghazzali adds: It is recommended the pilgrim should go daily to the Baqi' Cemetery and after saluting the Prophet (s), make pilgrimage to the tombs of (Imam) Hasan ibn 'Ali, (Imam) 'Ali ibn al-Husayn, (Imam) Muhammad ibn 'Ali and (Imam) Ja'far ibn Muhammad (Allah be pleased with them), and also perform the Salat in the Mosque of Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) (Abu Hamid Muhammad al-Ghazzali', Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din, vol. 1, pp. 258-261) Friday at 7:44pm Like 3
Datu KO 7. In my presentation, I argued that the attributes of Allah is INFINITE (Absolute, limitless) and it cant be shared by any of His creation including your Imams simply because the creation of Allah is FINITE (temporary, limited). Do agree with that a temporary or limited being cant possess an absolute attribute? If your answer is NO, please explain why. Whatever attributes possessed by the imams are favors conferred by Allah and not as an attribute independently for them. By then just like a simple mathematical equation the giver can not be compared with the Recipient they are unequal. However, Paradise and hellfire are both creation of Allah but given or granted with an eternal stat us according to the Quran so your presentation is wrong because when Allah decided to conferred anything to anybody then nobody can question HIS authority except fools! The Quran states about hell: Quran 41:28. Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Sings. Quran states about paradise: Quran 50:34 "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!" So Allah can make anything by means of HIS power eternal or forever and as HIS sincere slave we have no authority to ask Him about his decision. Friday at 7:48pm Edited Like 3
Abu Jaiyana I begin my rebuttal by mentioning the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Ladies and Gentlemen, in my presentation I was so cautious in my points about declaring/accusing my opponent to be a polytheist in contrast with declaring/accusing my opponents religion to be polytheistic or being guilty of polytheism . We can only call a 12 Imamite Shia as a polytheist (mushrik) if the correct theological concept about the oneness of Allah has been explained to him, he understood it, yet he still continue in his polytheistic belief and rituals/deeds. Whether he admits that he is a polytheist or not is irrelevant because what is to be judged is his theological belief, as well as his acts of worship. Our yardstick are the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Any belief or act of worship which contradicts th e teaching of the Quran and the Sunnah about the oneness of Allah (Tawheed) is considered as polytheism (Shirk). Many of you might have frowned when you read the presentation of my opponent because the topic of this debate is about
polytheism yet his presentation was about WHO WAS DESIGNATED by the Prophet s.a.w. as his immediate successor HOW DOES THAT HAVE ANY CONNECTION WITH POLYTHEISM??? Polytheism is from a Greek word polutheos which means of many gods. Poly - is a prefix which means many, and Theism is a noun which means belief in the existence of God. So polytheism has to do with the belief in the existence of God, or number of gods, or unique oneness of God. It has NOTHING TO DO with successorship at all. No one in the Quran was accuse d of being a polytheist simply because of his preference of leadership. Allah called the Arabs, the People of Nuh, et cetera as polytheists (mushrikun) not because of their preference as to who their leader should be, but because of their belief about God and in their practices which are directly connected to acts of worship (ibadah). Some of them used to call the name of their saints who have passed away for help instead of calling directly to Allah. Some of them attributed offspring to Allah. Some of them used to sacrifice animals as offerings to their saints who have passed away. Those are examples of acts polytheism mentioned in the Quran. It has nothing to do with successorship after a Prophet or a Messenger whatsoever. I CHALLENGE MY OPPONENT to provide/present an evidence from the Quran wherein people were considered polytheists because of their preference as to who the successor of their prophet should be. My opponents entire argument has gone far, far away from the topic of this debate. What is very frustrating for the shia in this debate is the refusal of my opponent to give his definition or understanding about Shirk. it is your problem abu jaiyina to know what is our definition of shirk No it is not my problem at all ladies and gentlemen. Had the topic been like this The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect According to the Shia definition of Shirk then that would be my problem. However, thats not the topic of this debate. The topic of this debate is to resolve whether the 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect and I have explained the meaning of Shikr and Tawheed in my presentation. I only asked that question in order for us to know directly from the Shia side whether or not their definition of Shirk (polytheism) agrees with the concept of Shirk in the Quran because as I have explained above, some followers of a polytheistic religion may not be aware about the real meaning of polytheism. Like the Catholics, worshiping their saints is not an act of polytheism for them, however from the Quranic point of view and the consensus of the majority of Muslim scholars, it is in fact a major shirk. Therefore, the refusal of my opponent to answer the question is a big minus on his part. It would have been his opportunity to clarify their side. In short, since my definition of polytheism was not contested by my opponent, then it stands as a valid yardstick in measuring whether or not the Jafari sect is guilty of polytheism. 20 hours ago Like 2
Abu Jaiyana In my question #2, he said that ibadah means worship which acc eptable. Ibadat means acts directly connected to worship in contrast with muamalat which are acts not directly related to worship. The problem is he did not answer the remainder of the question; he diverted his explanation to the etymology of dua and dawah. Everybody knows the difference between dawah or calling the people to the religion of God, and dua or calling God for help. But that was not the question folks. The question was do you consider making supplications as an act of ibadah? The question is answerable by yes or no, but you have seen what he replied, its totally out of the universe
Folks, dua or making supplication is an act of ibadah or act of worship. The Prophet s.a.w. said ad-Dua huwa al ibadah prayer or supplication I wor ship thats the correct answer. Do you know why he evaded the question? It is because it is not just a simple question, it is an atomic bomb for the Shia so to speak. It is directly connected to the command of Allah that we should only worship Him alone: It means that not only do we reach the position of worshipping Allah and asking for His help, but we worship Him alone and ask for His aid only. For there is none other than He worthy of our devotion and able to help us. We can surely ask an alive person to help us in our needs, but it is not an act of worship (not an ibadah), it is muamalat. An atheist can ask help from any person and we dont consider that as an act of worship to God because he doesnt believ e in of God in the first place. However, asking people in the graves for help, it is an act of worship because it has to do or it involves with spiritual matters because the people in the graves are in different dimension so to speak which called in Islam as the state of Barzakh. In this particular area, the Jafari Shia are clearly GUILTY of polytheism, which is WORSHIPPING OTHERS ALONGSIDE WITH ALLAH. All forms of worship must be dedicated to Allah alone not via any third party. -------In my question #3, I asked my opponent whether he knows of any reputable scholar who says that there is any Shia hadith book better than the Al Kafi of Al Kulayni because I quoted some of the most reputable Shia scholars about their testimony for Al Kafi. It has something to do with authority folks, it has nothing to do with the personal belief of my opponent. I can deny that Sahih Bukhari is the best Sunni Hadith Book, but would my personal belief about Sahil Bukhari outweigh the testimony of the reputable scholars of the Ahlus-Sunnah? No of course! So no reputable Shia scholar contradicts the testimonies of Al Hur Al'amily, Al Tabrasi, Sharaf'Deen Abdul Hussain Mosawy, and Ayatollah Al Khomeini that Al Kafi is the best Shia Hadith Book. What we can find in that best Shia hadith Book is Shirk, Shirk, and Shirk! So if the best Shia book is full of polytheism (shirk), what could we expect from those books which are lower in category than al Kafi? Therefore, the 12 Imamite Shiaism is no doubt a religion of polytheism, not only in their acts of worship but especially in the very text of their best book! 20 hours ago Like 5
Abu Jaiyana In my question #4 I asked him about the verse Does that verse allow us to call anyone besides Allah in worship such as making Dua? The clear answer is NO. let the verse speaks for itself: THEE (ALONE) WE WORSHIP; THEE (ALONE) WE ASK FOR HELP. So the 12 Imamite Shia dont understand what they are reciting in their Salat. Every rakah of any Salah, the recitation of Surah al Fatiha is obligatory. It is very sad to know that the Shia dont understand what they are reciting. Allah told us to worship him ALON E in any act
of worship, but the Shia also call for their Imams who are in the graves. My opponent appealed to 5:35 wasilah. He thinks that wasilah there means to approach Allah via third party. The is false folks. Allah doesnt contradict Himself when He said that we should worship Him alone without any partner. The wasila there doesn't mean WORSHIP ME LIKE THE CATHOLICS DO BY APPROACHING ME THROUGH THEIR SAINTS. So my opponent here confirmed my accusation that they really call for the Imams who are in the graves as a means of approaching Allah. Is this not PROOF ENOUGH THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE POLYTHEISTS?? ---------I asked my opponent about this ayah: Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah are SLAVES LIKE UNTO YOU; call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! 7:194 He confirmed that their Imams are SLAVES of Allah! Very Nice! So dont call them in your worship Datu KO, according to the ayah because they are merely slaves of Allah. Understand the verse carefully !!! ------------I asked him Do you agree with my contention that ALLAH KNOWS, HEARS, SEES, AND UNDERSTANDS BETTER THAN ANY OR ALL OF YOUR IMAMS in their graves when people ask any of them for help? He said the question is wrong. That means that he is saying that their Imams can hear, see, and understand them in the same way Allah does That is clear shirk in Tawheed -al-Asma was-Sifat. Allah doesnt share that ability to any of His creation!!! -------------------In my last question I asked him Do agree with that a temporary or limited being cant possess an absolute attribute? He did not answer the question directly but the tenor or his argument is that he disagree with it. He is telling us that a limited being can actually possess an infinite attribute, and he cited hell fire, and paradise as evidences. This is the worst and illogical answer to this question. Paradise and Hell fire are not absolute beings ladies and gentlemen. Both are limited in time, space, et cetera so they cant be considered as absolute beings, therefore they cant possess any absolute attribute. The Arabic word used in the verses he quoted is Khalood translated as eternal. It doesn't imply absoluteness because it indicates a beginning of time. An absolute term for that would be Al-Samad Neither beginning nor end, or Al Awwal al Akhir which means Allah is the beginning on whom there was nothing before Him and He is the last on whom there would be nothing after Him. No one could deny that both paradise and hell are creations of Allah, therefore they were both nonexistent before Allah created them. Understand the verse correctly, people will abide therein in eternity, does that mean that we are absolute beings? I dont think so. So the appeal of my opponent to the state of condition of paradise and hell in order to somehow justify their belief that their Imams can possess an absolute attribute is absolutely incorrect, and it is in fact a polytheistic belief.
He is also confirming again here that what I presented from the text of Al Kafi in which the Shia give their Imams absolute attributes which are exclusive only for Allah is true. Therefore, I could conclude with all certainty that the 12 Imamite Shiaism a.k.a Jaari Shiaism is a polytheistic religion beyond reasonable doubt. WE WILL WAIT WHETHER HE CAN REFUTE MY PRESENTATION AS WELL AS MY REFUTATIONS TO HIS ANSWERS HERE. Thank you. 20 hours ago Like 5
Datu KO Rebuttal to Jaiyina: This is the time I must revealed why i have started and anchored my presentation on the legitimacy of the succession to the prophet which my brother-in-humanity Abu Jaiyina failed to grasp. When you are following the authorities, the divine imams in this case, the true successor of the prophet then, everything they prescribed, taught, explained and expounded are divine truth and contrary to these are nothing but deviation and ignorance. Every single word coming from the opposite can is nothing but rebellion and defiant to the will of Allah since HE has the line of authority/ies that everyone must in all humbleness obey and follow. Any contrary ideas, teaching and preaching including practices of faith are baseless and opinionated before the argument of the Legitimate Divine Authorities. By now everyone knows in this room that what is being presented by Abu Jaiyina contravening the practice of faith taught by the ahlulbayt and followed by us, shiah, is nothing but an invention of his imagination and the imagination of their own scholars and therefore must be ruled out as baseless and the real polytheism since it is deviation from the path of Allah, His prophet and the imams who are his legitimate successor. From his presentation he is trying to explain what this debate title means. As if he is regretting why he had challenged the shiahs, by repeatedly, again and again, saying before the reader that he is not accusing us of being polytheist. He wants to cast a magical word to confuse us and the readers of this debate to his puzzle and games to be exact, gymnast of words, yet he called us apologists, a character and an attitude manifestly found in him. He further said, that the yardstick to his accusation is the Quran and the Sunnah as if he had forgotten that he and his scholars are all illegitimate interpreters of the Quran before Allah, the Prophet, the imams and even before us. Likewise, he had forgotten that his so called sunnah is not binding on us unless the same narrations are found in our authenticated collections of the prophetic sunnah through the imaams, the divine appointed successors of the prophet. He is dumbfounded and he cannot find evidences to refute my argument that nullify his stand and made his accusation mote and academic and he himself became a giant dwarf, for a simple reason that his weapons have no potency before us. What he has found as shirk according to him is product of his malicious mind because every piece of practice we are doing in both our usul and furu of deen are taught by the same divine authorities so ABU JAYINAS ALLEGATION ABOUT US. . IS PLAIN THE BUZZ. Abu jaiyina said: Many of you might have frowned when you read the presentation of my opponent because the topic of this debate is about polytheism yet his presentation was about WHO WAS DESIGNATED by the Prophet s.a.w. as his immediate successor HOW DOES THAT HAVE ANY CONNECTION WITH POLYTHEISM??? What a psychological defense. A remarked emanated from darkness . . .he failed to grasp that my discussion and presentation are the essence of the topic he presented. He is student of law school according to him yet he is not endowed with critical mind to analyze the rule of the supreme court of the philippines as far as matters of statutory construction is concerned. The supreme court is the bulwark of democracy, the sole authority to interpret laws and any interpretation from any lawyer, no matter how intelligent he is or a topnotcher of the bar exam, just like the self imposed ulama of the sunnis, is illegal, or worse a crime of the highest order. This is the case why I anchored my presentation along this line so that he may notice that he is defying the truth and therefore he become the real mushrik, because deviation and defiance to the teachings of the real and true divine authorities, are the true and real polytheism. He failed to notice that he was trapped and finally caught. Abu jaiyina again in his rebuttal said: Folks, dua or making supplication is an act of ibadah or act of worship. The Prophet s.a.w. said ad-Dua huwa al ibadah prayer or su pplication I worship thats the correct answer. Do you know why he evaded the question? It is because it is not just a simple question, it is an atomic bomb for the Shia so to speak. It is directly connected to the command of Allah that we should only worship Him alone:
Your denial is worse for you. You displayed your lack of understanding to my answer. Explaining dua and ibadah is the simplest and straightforward answer which you are denying, but by the way whether you are convince or not is not the matter of concern because you are my opponent and the same is least that I can expect from you. You are on the opposite side and I didnt expect you to swallow everything from my answers but intelligent readers know that it is sufficiently addressed. When we call the prophet and the imaams for help, we are very much aware that we are not worshipping them as you and your legions thought it to be. This is tawassul to them because Allah granted them the power and privilege to intercede. Your scores of ulama endorse this practice only the wahabbi are repugnant of this... for your enlightenment drink the dose of your own medicine: 11 hours ago Edited Like 1
Datu KO Tawassul (calling) to the Prophet after his Death (Dosage From Sunni authorities for the ignorance ) 1. All jurists including Imami, Shafi'i, Maliki, and later-day Hanafi scholars as well as others such as the Hanbalis, are unanimous on the permissibility of this way of supplication, whether it was in the lifetime of the Prophet (s), or whether it is after his passing away Sunni references: Sharh al-Mawahib, vol. 8, p. 304; al-Majmu', vol. 8, p. 274; Ibn 'Abidin, vol. 5, p.254; al-Fatawa al-Hindiyyah, vol. 1, p. 266 and vol. 5, 318; Fath al-Qadir, vol. 8, p. 297, 298 and al-Futuhat al-Rabbaniyyah 'ala al-Azkar al-Nabawiyyah, vol. 5, p. 36. 2. Imam Malik of the Sunni Sect on tawassul: The Abbasid caliph, Mansur al-Dawaniqi, once asked Malik ibn Anas the founder of the Maliki School of jurisprudence whether he should turn towards the shrine of the Prophet (s) or face the Qiblah for supplication? Malik answered him: Why do you want to turn away from the Prophet (s) when he (Prophet Muhammad (s)) is the wasilah (means) for you and for your father Adam, towards Allah on the Day of Resurrection. Turn to him (the Prophet) and seek his intercession (shafa'at). Sunni References: Sharh al-Mawahib, vol. 8, p. 304-5; Wafa' al-Wafad, vol. 4, p. 1371; al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyyah, p. 148; and Sharh Ibn alHasan 'ala al-Risalah al-Qirwani, vol. 12, p. 478). 3. The Sunni scholar al-Nawawi in describing the manners and etiquette of making pilgrimage to the shrine of Prophet Muhammad (s), writes: The pilgrim should face the shrine of the Messenger of Allah (s), make him a means (tawassul) towards reaching God and seek his wasilah as intercession (shafa'at), in the same manner as the Bedouin who visited the Prophet's shrine and standing beside it said: Peace unto you O Messenger of Allah, I have heard Allah has said: ...Had they, when they had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would certainly have found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful. (Holy Qur'an 4: 64). Therefore, I have come to you for forgiveness of my sins and seeking your intercession with Allah. Sunni references: Al-Majmu', vol. 8, p. 274; Fayd al-Qadir, vol. 2, p. 134; I'anah al-Talibiyyin, p. 315 1. The Shafi'ite scholar Ghazzali has allotted a special section in his book Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din concerning the manners of pilgrimage to the shrine of the Prophet (s) in order to repent and seek forgiveness from Allah. He writes: The Prophet should be made the means (wasilah) and the intercessor (shafi'), and with face turned towards the tomb, the pilgrim should implore Allah for the sake and position of the Prophet with the words: "O Allah, indeed You have said, Had they, who had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would have certainly found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful (Holy Qur'an 4:64); O Allah, surely we have heard Your words and we obey Your command, by coming to Your Prophet to seek his intercession
with You for our sins; how burdensome and heavy (are sins) on our backs! We repent of slipperiness, we confess our wrongs and our faults, accept our repentance for his sake, make Your Prophet intercessor for us, and exalt us for the sake of his position and his rights with You." Al-Ghazzali adds: It is recommended the pilgrim should go daily to the Baqi' Cemetery and after saluting the Prophet (s), make pilgrimage to the tombs of (Imam) Hasan ibn 'Ali, (Imam) 'Ali ibn al-Husayn, (Imam) Muhammad ibn 'Ali and (Imam) Ja'far ibn Muhammad (Allah be pleased with them), and also perform the Salat in the Mosque of Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her. Sunni Reference: Abu Hamid Muhammad al-Ghazzali', Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din, vol. 1, pp. 258-261. 11 hours ago Like 2
Datu KO 2. Opinion of Contemporary Hanafi Scholars on Permissibility of Tawassul (calling the prophets, imams, saints and awliya of Allah (dosage from sunni for ignorance) Here, we will study the legal opinions (fatawa) of contemporary Hanafi scholars on permissibility of tawassul to the Prophet (s). Alusi al-Baghdadi quotes Ibn 'Abd al-Salam as saying that it is permissible to invoke Allah for the sake of the Prophet (s), since Prophet Muhammad (s) is the leader of the children of Adam. Alusi bases his reasoning on the hadith (hasan and sahih) related by both Tirmidhi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal on the authority of 'Uthman bin Hunayf, which says that: Once when a blind man asked the Prophet (s) to pray to Allah to grant him eyesight, he was told to make wudu' and recite the following supplication: O Allah! I request you and I have turned to you through Your Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy; O Messenger of Allah! I have turned to you as a means towards My God for fulfilment of this wish of mine; O Allah! Accept his (Prophet's) intercession (shafa'at) for me. Alusi thus believes that there is no objection in making tawassul to God by means of the dignity (jah) and prime position of the Prophet (s), whether it is in his lifetime or after his death, since dignity here refers to an attribute which is one of the attributes of Almighty Allah. Alusi also says that tawassul by means of dignity of a person other than the Prophet (s) is also permissible, provided that the one who is being considered a wasilah has a station and position of dignity in the sight of Allah. Sunni Reference: Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, 128. 3. The famous Sunni scholar of India, Shaykh Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri in his book al-Muhannad 'ala al-Mufannid has collected the fatawa or legal opinions of 75 leading Sunni scholars from different parts of the Islamic world on the permissibility of tawassul to the shrine of Prophet Muhammad (s). He writes: In our opinion and that of our teachers, pilgrimage to the shrine of the Master of Messengers (my soul be sacrificed for him) is the most exalted of proximities, the most important of blessings, and the greatest of means (wasilah) for attaining lofty ranks. It could be said that it is an enjoinment almost to the degree of obligations, even if it requires the trouble of a journey to perform it and there is no other option other than to make efforts with life and wealth. Tawassul to the Prophets, saints, pious persons, martyrs and the righteous during supplications, whether in their lifetime or after their death, is permissible in the following manner: Allahumma inni atawassalu ilayka bi-fulan an tujiba da'wati wa taqdia hajati (O Allah! I beseech you by means of so and so a person, accept my supplication and grant my request. Sunni Reference: Shaykh Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri, 'Aqa'id Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah fi radd al- Wahhabiyyah wa al-Bid'ah, translated into Persian by 'Abd al-Rahman Sarbazi, p. 86. 4. Ahmad bin Zayni Dahlan in his Khulasah al-Kalam, have cited a sahih (authentic) hadith, that during the caliphate of 'Umar ibn Khattab when a severe famine occurred, Bilal bin Harth approached the Prophet's (s) tomb and said: "O Messenger of Allah, pray to God to send rains for your ummah, since we are all facing annihilation." The Prophet then appeared in Bilal's dream and gave him the tidings of rains. Similarly during the caliphate of 'Uthman ibn 'Affan, a needy person approached the Caliph and told him of his needs. 'Uthman asked him to make wudu, offer prayer in the mosque and then supplicate in the following manner: O Lord! through the wasilah of our Prophet Muhammad (s), the Messenger of Mercy, I turn my face to You. O Muhammad (s)! through your wasilah I am facing Your Lord and I request you to grant me my wish. The person attained his goal.
Sunni Reference: Al-Mausu'ah al-Fiqhiyyah al-Kuwaitiyyah, vol. 7, p. 263; Qa'idah Jalilah, p. 51. His atomic bomb rendered ineffective by his own ulama and it was converted to boomerang. 11 hours ago Like 2
Datu KO all of these sunni authorities proclaiming the veracity of our practice and slapping the face o the ignorance 11 hours ago Edited Like
Datu KO Rebuttal on the ayat misinterpreted by the ignorants and illegitimate debater and scholars 1. God says in the Holy Qur'an: "So call you not anyone with Allah." (72:18) "Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves..." (7:194) Rebuttal In answer to this objection it should be said that every supplication is not a form of worship or even the spirit of worship, since the root of du'a' (supplication) is da'wat, a word which along with its derivatives occurs frequently in the Holy Qur'an. For instance, "...let us call (nad'u) our sons... (3:61)" and "Make you not the addressing (du'a') of the Prophet among you like your addressing one another..." (24:63) As could be discerned, in most of the 'Ayas the word du'a' means to call or address. Accordingly neither every nida' (call) is du'a' nor every du'a' is 'ibadat (worship). In other words du'a' (supplication) becomes 'ibadat when the rules of worship such as servitude and submissiveness to Allah are observed with acknowledgement of the over lordship of the Almighty Creator. What connection does this have with tawassul and tabarruk to the Prophet (s) and the Infallible Imams ('a) and requesting them for help and succour? Thus, the narration al-du'a' huwa al-'ibadah (supplication is among the acts of worship), does not necessarily mean that every supplication is a form of worship. References: Manawi, al-Fayd, vol. 3, p. 540; Hasan bin 'Ali Saqqaf, al-Tandid bi-man Addada al-Tawhid, pp. 30-40. 11 hours ago Edited Like Datu KO 2. Ayahs 13-14 of Surah al-Fatir The Salafiyyah also resort to the following Ayah of the Holy Qur'an as part of their attempt to discourage tawassul: ...And those whom you call upon other than Him, own not (even) a straw. If you call on them they shall hear not your call; and even if they hear they shall answer you not; and on the Day of Judgement they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can (ever) inform you as the All-Aware. (35:13,14) Rebuttal This Ayah refers to the polytheists who worship idols instead of the One and Only God and supplicate to these man-made objects in their hour of need. Allah says here that these idols do not own even a straw, so how can they grant anything to those who worship and prostrate before them? No matter how fervently these idols are called upon, they do not listen since they are inanimate objects, and suppose even if they were to listen, they cannot answer since they do not have the tongues. As is crystal clear for any discerning person, it has no connection whatsoever concerning tawassul to the Prophet (s) and
the Infallible Imams ('a) or saints. First and foremost, it is a gross mistake to place those who seek tawassul in the same category as the polytheists, since idolaters seek their needs from idols and not from the Almighty Creator. But those who make tawassul beseech Allah for their needs and regard Prophet Muhammad (s) as a wasilah or means for the acceptance of their supplications, since he is the Messenger of Allah. To quote Rashid Rida himself, those who seek tawassul are like guests who approach the host for some of their needs, and at times request the members of the household or friends of the hosts who have been appointed to serve the guests, since they consider everything to be the favour of the host. References: Tafsir al-Jalalayn; Manawi, al-Fayd, vol. 3, p. 540; Hasan bin 'Ali Saqqaf, al-Tandid bi- man Addada al-Tawhid, pp. 3040.Baydawi, Anwar al-Tanzil, vol. 2, 270. Tafsir al- Manar, vol. 1, p. 59. Ibn ''Abd al-Wahhab, Risalah Kashf al-Shubahat, cited in al-Rasul Yad'ukum, p. 295. 11 hours ago Like 1
Datu KO Ayah 194 of Surah al-A'raf The fifth reason that the Salafiyyah such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad Rashid Rida have cited as non-permissibility of tawassul to the Prophet (s) after his death, is the following Ayah of the Holy Qur'an: "Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves..." (7:194) Rebuttal All exegetes of the Holy Qur'an have unanimously stated that this Ayah refers to the idol- worshippers who associate manmade objects with God in creation and in administering the affairs of the world. In contrast, tawassul is made by those who never regard the Prophets as partners of Allah in creation and in running world affairs, and neither do they worship the Last Prophet (s), since every day several times they bear testimony that Prophet Muhammad (s) is the servant and Messenger of Allah (ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasuluh). As the Holy Qur'an says, Prophet Muhammad (s) has been sent as mercy to the entire creation (21:107) and is a means of acceptance of supplications, so it is natural for us to request him to supplicate and intercede (shafa'at) with Allah for us. 11 hours ago Like 2
Datu KO the above rebuttal is enough to declare my opponent's argument as PALUSOT. THANK YOU TRUTH IS CLEAR FROM ERROR 11 hours ago Like 1 Abu Jaiyana Datu KO, You once again, you have exceeded the word count limit. (5. Rebuttal by Datu KO 2,000 words maximum) Your rebuttal word count is more than 3,000 words. Based on the rules, you lost in this debate due to inability (failure) to follow the rules. Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 32: The Prophet said, "The signs of a HYPOCRITE are three: 1. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie. 2. Whenever he promises, he always breaks it (his promise ).
3. If you trust him, he proves to be dishonest. Is that what your Imams told you to do? 47 minutes ago Like
Montaser Hassan I, toto, n0ticed that again. Datu Ko is careless... He agreed to the rules (which should be followed), but, again 4 d 2nd time eh he broke the rule. Bka 1st tym nyang magdebate (formal) mga kapatid... 23 minutes ago via mobile Edited Unlike 1
Malik Al-Ashtar And the winner is........ Abu Jaiyana!!!:D 21 minutes ago Like
Abu Jaiyana I begin my conclusion by mentioning the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful Ladies and Gentlemen, It is now time to wrap up the arguments that we have presented in this debate. In my presentation, I presented three corroborating evidences from 12 Imamite Shia sources which I used as proof that their religion is a polytheistic one. None of my arguments and my evidences was refuted by my opponent. 1. Their best book Al Kafi teaches polytheism by giving divine attributes to their Imams which are exclusive only to Allah such as: THE IMAMS HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE PAST AND FUTURE; AND NOTHING IS HIDDEN FROM THEM. ONLY ALLAH POSSESSES SUCH INFINITE KNOWLEDGE It is blatant polytheism. Shirk in Oneness in Gods names and attributes 2. Their prominent scholars teaches the same type of polytheism such as Muhammad Rida Al Muzaffar: We believe that like the Prophet, an Imam must be infallible, THAT IS TO SAY INCAPABLE OF MAKING ERRORS OR DOING WRONG EITHER INWARDLY OR OUTWARDLY FROM HIS BIRTH TO HIS DEATH, EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY because THE IMAMS ARE THE PRESERVERS OF ISLAM AND IT IS UNDER THEIR PROTECTION - ONLY ALLAH IS FREE FROM ERROR inwardly and outwardly It is blatant polytheism again. Shikr Oneness in Gods names and attributes. 3. Their rituals and supplications also corroborate this same type polytheism such as al-Tabrasi: Then you place your right cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times in prostration, "O MUHAMMAD, O ALEE, O ALEE, O MUHAMMAD, SUFFICE ME (IN MY NEEDS) FOR YOU ARE BOTH SUFFICERS, AND AID ME FOR YOU ARE BOTH MY HELPERS." And you place your left cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times, "REACH ME (TO DELIVER ME)" and you repeat it many times, and you say, "(I SEEK) RESCUE, RESCUE, RESCUE" until the soul is disconnected, then you raise your head. - This is not calling to Allah, this is calling to the slaves of Allah It is Shirk Oneness in Worship. The famous paganish Ashura:
They torture themselves by wailing, lashing their bodies with sharp materials, some of them even hack their backs with a samurai or a sword while calling Al Husain YA HUSAIN YA HUSAIN YA HUSAIN repeatedly until the ritual is over - Again, this is not calling to Allah, it is calling the creation/slave of Allah - It is Shirk in Oneness in Worship. NONE OF THE ABOVE POINTS WAS REFUTED BY MY OPPONENT in his answers to my cross-exam questions and also in his rebuttal. I dont think that he could make another rebuttal in his conclusion. 19 minutes ago Like
Abu Jaiyana I also argued that the word POLYTHEISM has to do with God, NOT ABOUT SUCCESSORSHIP after any Prophet. I even dug up the etymology/origin of the word polytheism that is from the Greek word POLUTHEOS which means of many gods. POLY- is a prefix which means MANY, and THEISM is a noun which means BELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. So polytheism has to do with the belief in the existence of God, or number of gods, or unique oneness of God. It has NOTHING TO DO with successorship at all. THIS POINT WAS NOT REFUTED AT ALL. 18 minutes ago Like
Abu Jaiyana The last point is that he brought a new issue about tawasul in order to at least ease/lighten the weight of the evidences from the Quran that prohibit calling others besides Allah in worship. He said that tawasul is allowed. But tawasul is not like calling others for help alongside with Allah. Tawasul is CALLING DIRECTLY to Allah and asking Allah to grant the plea or request by virtue of the merit of a good deed done for the sake of Allah, or by virtue of the piety of a pious person. If we examine the examples he cited in making Tawasul, they start with O ALLAH in Arabic, ALLAHUMMA. This indicates that the person making a supplication is calling directly to Allah; HE IS NOT CALLING OTHER PERSON FOR HELP OR ASKING A DEAD PERSON to tell Allah about his (supplicants) need. However THE SHIA ARE NOT CALLING DIRECTLY TO ALLAH, they are CALLING DIRECTLY THEIR IMAMS IN THE GRAVE AND ASK HELP FROM THEM so that is not tawasul at all. ( Ya Ali, Ya Haydar, Ya Husain, Ya, Hassan, Ya Ummul Banin, Ya Ali madad!) That is not tawasul! Is this tawasul??? Place your right cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times in prostration, "O MUHAMMAD, O ALEE, O ALEE, O MUHAMMAD, SUFFICE ME (IN MY NEEDS) FOR YOU ARE BOTH SUFFICERS, AND AID ME FOR YOU ARE BOTH MY HELPERS." and you place your left cheek on the earth and you say a hundred times, "REACH ME (TO DELIVER ME)" and you repeat it many times, and you say, "(I SEEK) RESCUE, RESCUE, RESCUE" until the soul is disconnected, then you raise your head.
Thats NOT TAWASUL folks, that is clear-cut Shirk in Tawheed al Ibadah!! 16 minutes ago Like Abu Jaiyana So folks, DONT BE FOOLED with the tawasul defense. What the SHIA ARE DOING IS NEVER TAWASUL but worshiping the slaves of Allah instead of worshiping Allah alone. The REASONING that the Shia put forward in this debate that THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPING THEIR IMAMS IS THE VERY SAME ARGUMENT THAT THE POLYTHEISTS OF OLD PUT FORWARD. Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And those who choose protecting friends beside Him (say): WE WORSHIP THEM ONLY THAT THEY MAY BRING US NEAR UNTO ALLAH. Lo! Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not him who is a liar, an ingrate. 39: 3 Surely Allah does NOT FORGIVE THAT ANYTHING SHOULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH HIM, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. 4: 48 May Allah protect us from the evil of this pol ytheist religion 12 Imamite Shiaism a.k.a Jafari Sect, the CATHOLIC Version of Islam (Fake Islam). Jazakallahu Khair. 10 minutes ago Like Datu KO Concluding part: My beloved deviated brother-in-humanity, Abu Jaiyina had repeatedly accusing the shiah of worshipping their imams which is his wild imagination devoid of truth. We are calling the prophet and the imaams for help (tawassul) simply because they are declared by the Quran and the authentic sunnah of the prophet as the WASILAH to Allah and not as Allah to whom worship is due alone. They are the true means of approaching Allah and no more. ibn taymiyyah, the chief architect of the wahabbi creed, warning for abu jaiyina: This is a controversial issue and to accuse of heresy those who make tawassul is haram and is a sinful act, since no one has said that a person making tawassul to the Prophet (s) after his death is a kafir. This is an ambiguous issue and there are no certain proofs in this regard. Kufr is confirmed when a person rejects any of the tenets of faith deliberately and being fully aware. Therefore, those who accuse a person of heresy for making tawassul deserve the most severe punishment. (Majmu'ah Fatawa Ibn Taymiyyah, vol. 1, p. 106, as cited in al-Mausu'ah al-Fiqhiyyah al-Kuwaitiyyah, vol. 14, pp. 163-164.) We are cognizant of the Quranic verses qouted by Abu Jaiyina and his coholtz about polytheism and tauheed but their interpretation and imputation is illegal as well as misleading for a very simple reason that they are illegitimate interpreter of the Quran. The verses they are citing has already been interpreted by Nabi Mohammad and the imams from the prophets Ahlulbayt who was the legitimate divine inter preter of the Holy Quran and the authority to whom the shiah ahlulbayt reposed their obedient. True sunni has no problem with the tawassul to the nabi, awliyyah and the imaams. As we earlier elucidated, the four sunni madhahib were in opinion that this is allowed. This is expounded by the facts below: It is a common sight in many countries to see the Ahl al -Sunnah approach the graves of pious persons to pray and supplicate for their needs. In Egypt, Iraq and Turkey, and many other lands --India, Pakistan, Syria, Central Asia, North Africa-- it is an accepted practice by the masses to visit the tombs of saints and holy personages to make tawassul and seek blessings. Dr. Mustafa Mahmud writes that people in Egypt flock to the tomb of Rifa'i and Ibrahim Dasuqi and cry loudly with such phrases as: Madad Ya Rifa'i (help me O Rifa'i), Shifa' bi-Yadika Ya Sayyidi Ibrahim Dasuqi (In your hands lie the remedy, O my Lord Ibrahim Dasuqi) (Mustafa Mahmud, Asrar al-Qur'an, Dar al-Ma'arif, second edition, p. 77). about an hour ago Edited Like 1

Datu KO If the FOUR SUNNI SCHOOL OF THOUGHT and the sunni countries today still doing tawassul (calling the saints) then it is not out of place to ask what is the MADHAB of Abu Jaiyina who is maligning the concept of tawassul to the prophets, imaams and awaliyah of ALLAH as practiced by the sahaba, true Ahlul Sunnah and the follower of the Ahlulbayt? Today even in the modern world, the soul is established to have an independent life different from that of the the body, confirming islamic truth about it.. The testimony of the sunni muslim is the best evidence to prove this assertion . Farid Wajdi mentions in his encyclopaedia: In our era God has opened two of the windows of knowledge for us and the proof of this two windows confirms beyond an iota of doubt that man has a soul which without the need of the physical body can lead its own independent life. (Da'irah al-Ma'arif Qarn al-'Ishrin (20th Century Encyclopaedia), under the topic of 'Ruh' (Soul), vol. 14, p. 365). and talking to the SOUL of the dead person is no longer a fantasy but part of the world science From the 19th century onwards the science of spiritism or contacts with the souls of the departed has been disc overed and developed upon by the world's researchers after precise study and experiments in this regard. In the US and Europe, the summoning of the souls of the departed is part of the world of science. (Refer for details to Leone Danny's "World After Death", pp. 78-82.) about an hour ago Edited Like 1
Datu KO Finally the final blow to abu jaiyina: Conclusion Therefore, in conclusion we can state with authority the following points, since tawassul (calling the prophet, imams and awliyyah) is an accepted principle in the life of a sincere and God-fearing Muslim, and whatever disputes that have been fanned are due to bigotry and lack of proper understanding of Islam: 1. Controversy over the issue of tawassul is not a matter of discord between Shi'ah and Sunni Muslims, but it is a difference of opinion between the Salafiyyah sect and the rest of Muslims. 2. Most of the differences of the Salafiyyah Wahhabis are with the extremist Sufis who believe in reincarnation, and with the Sunni masses who often make emotional tawassul at graves and seek their needs from the departed such as Abu Hanifah (and 'Abd al-Qadir Gilani) in Baghdad, Shafi'i, Rifa'i, Dasuqi and others in Egypt, Idris in Morocco and Abu Ayyub Ansari in Turkey - as well as Khawajah Mu'in al-Din Chishti and numerous others in India, and Data Ganj Bakhsh and Sufi saints in Pakistan. In fact, the Salafiyyah and the Wahhabis have the least differences with Shi'ah Muslims since Shi'ah recite the suppli cations of the Ahl al-Bayt ('a) which contain the purest form of monotheism. However, because of their non-familiarity with the Shi'ah they accuse them of polytheism and in their ignorance brand them infidels. about an hour ago Like 1
Datu KO 3. In all the supplications of the Ahl al-Bayt ('a) the addressee is Almighty Allah alone, even in the famous Du'a' Tawassul, which the Sunnis say with unanimity was taught by Prophet Muhammad (s) to a blind person who subsequently regained his eyesight. 4. Du'a' tawassul, where devotion is expressed to the Prophet (s) and his Infallible Ahl al-Bayt ('a), is not exclusively meant for the Shi'ah but was widely popular among the Sunnis until Ibn Taymiyyah and later Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab came on the scene with their weird interpretation. For instance, the poetical composition of tawassul to the 14 Infallibles found in the
works of prominent poets of the Ahl al-Sunnah such as the Persian poet Shaykh Sa'di and the Sufi Khalid Naqhsbandi -- as well as the famous Spanish Muslim gnostic and philosopher Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn al-'Arabi. about an hour ago Like 1 Datu KO 5. As part of their misinformation campaign against tawassul, the Salafiyyah attempt to exploit certain Ayahs of the Holy Qur'an which refer to the polytheists who worship idols instead of the One and Only God and who seek their wants from these lifeless man-made objects. However, it is clear that equating those who seek tawassul to the Prophet (s) with the polytheists and infidels is an erroneous idea, since tawassul-seekers, unlike the idolators, address the Almighty Creator and seek their needs from Him by making the Prophet (s) a wasilah for acceptance of prayer. On the other hand, the idols have no connection with God and are nothing more than inanimate objects made by man, while Prophet Muhammad (s) is the manifest sign of Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Mercy to the creation. Allah has also given him power, both in this world and in the next, to supplicate and intercede for his true followers. The Wahhabi contention of the period of Barzakh of the Prophet (s) lacks any rational explanation and is against the view of the 'ulama' of all other sects of the Ahl al-Sunnah. 6. Those who wish to make the Prophet (s) the intercessor without being obedient to the Holy Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt ('a), have been likened by Shi'ah 'ulama' such as 'Allamah Tabataba'i, to a wishful person who wants to become the sage of the age without learning or studying anything. about an hour ago Like 1
Abu Jaiyana Thank You Datu KO for your conclusion. Once again for the third time, you exceeded the word count limit. (7. Conclusion by Datu KO 1,000 words maximum) Your conclusion has more than 1,300 words. I think your hand is still shaking. We can understand that about a minute ago Like
End of the Debate
Audiences Comments after the debate:

Malik Al-Ashtar Please post this on your Scribd without editing the debate itself. So that anyone can see how you looked like a neophyte. By the way, please delete all the "nuisance" comments here before you post on your Scribd. 14 hours ago Like 2
Montaser Hassan 14 hours ago via mobile Like

Malik Al-Ashtar nakita mo na matuwa kung paano naging polytheist si Abu jaiyana at ikaw? 13 hours ago Like
Montaser Hassan Wala ka sa lugar...ama lukes. 13 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Malik Al-Ashtar Don't worry, wala naman pulis. 13 hours ago Like
Montaser Hassan We'll wait Datu's c0nclussi0n. Kw Abdulmalik wg ng palusot. Aminin mo ng di mo masagot/maprove allegati0n m0. Wag m0ng ipasa sa amin ama lukes 13 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Abu Jaiyana nagkandarapa ang kalaban noh ahehehe ayaw na sumunod sa rules ng debate kahit binigyan na ng warning heheheh 13 hours ago Like 1
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg ikaw ang polytheist hind kaba nakapag aral ? at di kaba marunong bumasa at umunawa.... ignoranteng Malik Al-Ashtar ...pilit mong ginagamitan ng pang aasar kaming mga sunni e alam mo sa sarili mo na kayo talaga ang mga majosi polytheist and pagans....hanggang ngayon ba d mo parin alam ang definition ng salitang "polytheism" at "shirk" .... o sajang hypocrite ka lang ta;aga o mas magandang sabihin na munafiq ka lang talaga kaya ayaw mong tanggapin na mali ka, mali ang sekta nyo at tanga at walang alam si Datu ko s kaibahan ng tawassul sa shirkul ebadah.....kayo ang palusotamba at kayo ang mga taong ligaw ang landas at mga walang common sense... handang ipaglaban ang mali ...wag lang mapahiya..... kung buhay lang ang ahlul bait sa panahon ngayon c hadzrat Ali radiyAllahu anhu mismo ang pupugot ng mga ulo niyo...sa pagsamba nyo sa kanya at sa pamilya nya.... kung matapang kayo subukan nyong mag sermon sa marawi gamit ang baluktot at walang kakwenta kwenta nyong aqeedah.... huh... iwan ko lang kong makalabas pa kayo ng buhay sa masjid.... magsanib pwersa na kayong mga munafiq na mga kafir.... hinding hindi nyo mapapatay ang liwanag ng tunay na islam.... tama nga c abu jaiana kayo ang m MUSLIM VERSION NG
CATHOLICISM...(FAKE ISLAM) ...MAXADO NG MALAYO SA TAMANG PAG IISIP ANG PANINIWALA NYO...KAYA KAHIT NA MALIIT NA BATA DI NYO MALOLOKO SA MGA MALING ARAL NYO.... MAGSASAMA SAMA KAYO NG MGA PATAY NA SINASAMBA NYO.... TAMA NA SA AMING SI ALLAH ANG KAKAMPI NAMIN... MGA BUKHAG A MGA SHI SHIA.... 13 hours ago Like
Malik Al-Ashtar Pwede bang magbigay kayo ng great Sunni ulama na nagsabing polytheist ang shia? At least before 17th century ulama - when Wahhabism is not yet born. 13 hours ago Like 1
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg PURO KA GANYAN... SUBUKAN MONG MAG WASHIAT SA ALIN MANG MASJID SA LUNGSOD NG MARAWI SA LANAO DEL SUR...sa araw ng biyernes...NA GAMIT ANG PAGIGING MUSHRIK MO....WALLAHIL ADZIYM ....IWAN KO LANG KONGDI MAPUNIT ANG KATAWAN MO ... ANO BANG VIRUS ANG DUMAPO JAN SA MGA UTAK NYO AT hnd nyo matanggap na ang sekta nyo ay modern version ng asrul jahiliyyah... hnd mo ba alam kung saan nagmula c lat, uzza at manat? bago pa man sila gawing diyos ng mga sinaunang tao sa lupain ng arabia?...saan? sa pagsamba ng mga libingan ng mga matutuwid na tao...hanggang sa gawin na silang mga diyos na kaagapay ng Allahu subhanahu wa ta'ala...... sooner mag eembento pa kayo ng mas marami pang pagano at kultong mga pamamaraan ...e mas masahol pa kayo smga katoleko ei......ya Allah tupukin mo sila sa apoy ng impyerno... amen....mga shia...... ancient persian pagan religion called: "magianism" plus islam equals: "hia rafidah".... hurray!!! bumalik na sa modern age ang asrul jahiliyyah... in a form a more deviated sect called "shiaism" subhanAllah a'uzdhu billahi min dhalik....astagfirullah.....3x 13 hours ago Like 1
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg bang bang! sapul ang mga mushrik shias..... alhamdulillah,,,....... 13 hours ago Like 1
Shamerah Mapandi Hadji Mohaimen abU jaiYANA,abU jaiYaNA ,abU jaiYaNA..!!!! 12 hours ago Like
Michael Ryan Whew! Indeed the two gentlemen are both superb fighter. My frustration is not all readers are seeking for the truth. Both side have staunch supporters that no matter what they read from the opposing side they will never care about. As far as abiding by the rules of the debate clearly Abujain wins. In this debate Dato ko never confronted Abujaina in toe to toe fashion. He keep on avoiding answering question directly. Polytheism is never addressesd by Dato ko in a manner that we readers can say that "hindi naman pala eh". Instead he is trying to indoctrinate the readers of their belief or aqueda. In the light of the definition of polytheistic laydown by AbuJaina i can conclude Shia is a polytheistic sect apart from
Islam. There is one thng point out by Dato ko that need to be pondered. Prostrating to anyone besides Allah is certainly a shirk but Allah commands the angels to prostrate before Adam a.s and all of them do so except Iblis. His contention is that disobeying those have given the authority by Allah to be obeyed is the highest form of shirk. 12 hours ago via mobile Unlike 3
Abu Jaiyana I didnt have time to rebut that point Bro Michael Ryan. The disobedience of Iblis of the command of Allah did not make him a disbeliever/mushrik per se, because if merely disbelieving the commandment of Allah makes you a mushrik, then what do you say of Adam who also disobeyed Allah? What makes Iblis a disbeliever is his debate with Allah; he is attributing ERROR to Allah, that Allah made a mistake of commanding him to Prostrate to Adam because he thought that he is better than Adam, therefore it is Adam who is supposed to prostrate to him instead of him to prostrate to Adam. ALLAH Is ERROR-FREE - That's what made Iblis a mushrik. Committing an error is an attribute of the slaves of Allah, so it should not be attributed to Allah, otherwise it is kufr, shirk. In the same way, the perfect attributes of Allah cant be given to any of His slaves because to do so is kufr, shirk as well. That was the area where the Shia committed shirk in their belief - they give the perfect attributes of Allah to their Imams, such as having knowledge of the past, present and future, and there is nothing hidden from them. I didnt have time to refute all his contention due to limited word count and he didnt present them in his presentation. He didnt even define for us what is shirk, in fact he refused to define it when he was asked to do so heheheh 12 hours ago Like 2
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg dahil desidido c mushrik na datu ko na manalo despite of the fact that he was already a LOSSER 11 hours ago Like
Michael Ryan You have not left stone unturn as old folk says. Now AbuJaina you have indeed win! I would like to see Hussein Abinal be your next opponent. 11 hours ago via mobile Unlike 1
Abu Jaiyana wE already have debated Hussein Abinal many times here regarding Mut'ah, Imamah ect. He is now hesistant to debate with me again because of...many loses 11 hours ago Like 1

Michael Ryan I miss that debate...sayang.. 11 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Abu Jaiyana http://www.scribd.com/doc/128165962/Atty-Hussein-Abinal-vs-AbuJaiyana-Debate-on-Mutah-TemporaryMarriage
Atty. Hussein Abinal vs AbuJaiyana Debate on Mutah (Temporary Marriage) www.scribd.com Mut'ah (Temporary Marriage) Still Allowed Or Prohibited In Islam? Shiism insists...See More 12 hours ago Like Remove Preview
Abu Jaiyana http://www.scribd.com/doc/130782836/DEBATE-Atty-Hussein-Abinal-Shia-vs-AbuJaiyana-Ahlus-Sunnah-TheImamite-Doctine-Of-12er-Shiaism-Is-Part-Of-The-Islamic-Faith-pdf
DEBATE: Atty. Hussein Abinal (Shia) vs. AbuJaiyana (Ahlus-Sunnah) The Imamite Doctine Of 12er... www.scribd.com DEBATE: Atty. Hussein Abinal (Shia) vs. AbuJaiyana (Ahlus-Sunnah) The Imamite Doctine Of 12er Shiaism Is Part Of The Islamic Faith .pdf 11 hours ago Like 1 Remove Preview
Michael Ryan Sukhran now i can see it.. 11 hours ago via mobile Like 1

Abu Jaiyana just click the link.You can download them for free at scribd.com 11 hours ago Like 1
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg salamat shukran lak ya akhi 11 hours ago Like 1
Hussein Abinal Abu Jaiyana Loses? Hesitant? Hello? 10 hours ago via mobile Like 3
Datu KO the angels prostrated before adam and nabi yaqub prostrated before his son nabi yusof. we in the shiah faith says: prostration is of two type 1. prostration of respect 2. prostration of worship the 2nd type is exculsive for Allah and nobody is entitled to it! 10 hours ago Edited Like
Datu KO Abu Jaiyana may conclusion pa ako o wala na? 10 hours ago Like
Hussein Abinal Correct bro. 10 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Malik Al-Ashtar Bro, number 7, your concluding remarks. 10 hours ago Edited Like 1
Datu KO kasi bro Malik Al-Ashtar dinownload na yata hehehe 10 hours ago Like 2
Montaser Hassan D kc u sumusun0d sa rules ny0ng dalawa datu ko...but u hv d0ne well too 10 hours ago via mobile Like
Michael Ryan Nothing to be ashamed of Dato Ko you almost got him ganyan ang laban you win some you lose some. Better luck next time bro. 10 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Michael Ryan Right now i am reviewing the debate between Abinal and AbuJainal...it is another tight match... 10 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO i will now explain why sometimes i didn't follow Abu Jaiyana's framed rule despite my acceptance of this debate proposal 9 hours ago Like
Michael Ryan So Hussein Abinal to AbuJaina is like Erik Morales to Manny Pacquiao..i cant believe how AbuJaina is beating the fierciest fighter of Iran este...shia.. 9 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO may conclusion is ready and if @abu jaiyina want to read it, i'll post it soon, inshallah!
9 hours ago Like 2
Michael Ryan Dato ko di kaya pumanig ka sa pangkat ni Moawiya? You remind me of the battle of Siffin when Moawiya ealized that they were about to lose the battle ginamit nila Quran para matigil ang laban...ano ba yan Dato ko you are the being administered by your medicine. Kinokontra sarili mo paninindigan. Ganito ba kau mga shia clutches straw when cornered? Natatawa ko he he he he he santong kabayo yo yo yo natatawa ko hehehe! 9 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Ahl Sunnah Wa Jama'ah enough datu ko, what ever your conclussion will be have nothing to do with all your comment during your dabate........................ 9 hours ago Like
Datu KO ang panindigan natin dapat naayon sa qur'an at hwag na hwag nating gawin na sundin ang ego natin kung ito ay laban sa kalam ng Allah. . . Michael Ryan sunni ang kumampi kay muawiyah. . . at hindi mo ba alam na bago ang siffin tinawag na sila ng imam Ali na gawing arbiter ang Qur'an? 9 hours ago Like 1
Ahl Sunnah Wa Jama'ah hinayaan o you, your self doesnt know what is polythiest means it...........palusot kana naman datu ko....... 9 hours ago Like
Datu KO Ahl Sunnah Wa Jama'ah kung sinagot ko tanong niya click lang sa google at zooooom andiyan na. kaya hinayaan ko mung isuka niya ang lahat ng maisuka niya bago ko sinupalpal. . ganoon lang yun! 9 hours ago Like 1
Datu KO at maipakita sa mga may isip, kasama ka na kung meron ka noon na hindi pala niya alam ang shirk sa shiah. . hehehehehe tapos ako pa ang gagawin niyang teacher.
9 hours ago Like 1
Datu KO minsan sabi ni imam ali. . tandaan mo Ahl Sunnah Wa Jama'ah at ikaw Michael Ryan "silent is the best answer to the ignorant" what a truth. . . 9 hours ago Like 1
Datu KO kung kay bruce lee pa ang ginawa ko sa debate na ito "the way of the Dragon" 9 hours ago Like 2
Datu KO ika nga sabi ni zuntzu in the Art of War "knowing your enemy is half of victory" 9 hours ago Edited Like 1
Datu KO from the very start i knew my strategy. . . @michael ryan you want another round. . your are free to choose what topic. . . 9 hours ago Edited Like 2
Malik Al-Ashtar Di na lalaban yan si Abu Jaiyana ng another round. 9 hours ago Like 1
Datu KO truth has come and falsehooh had vanished for it is bound to vanish!!!
9 hours ago Edited Like 1
Michael Ryan In your justfication of your violation of the rules you are more of as Shia of Moawiya rather than Shia of Ali. Moawiya use the Quran at the height of the battle...here doing the same tactics which is inappropriate considering you agree with all the rules set forth by AbuJaina which to me has not contradict any Quranic injunction. Aaah ano ito dato, you win my respect but you disappointed by you incoherent justification. AbuJaina wins this debate. Summon Hussein Abinal to avenge your lost. 9 hours ago via mobile Like
Hussein Abinal Abu Jaiyana and his cheering squad are clearly on the side of disbelief.
Guro Sa Palao wala tagilid ka Da tuko, sa debate ito, marami kang iniwasan tanong.. naproved na na nuisance ka lng..ahehehe 9 hours ago Like
Malik Al-Ashtar nakakatawa naman si Ryan at iba pang fans ni AbuJ. 9 hours ago Like 1
Guro Sa Palao knock out ka na Da tuko,.. ahehehe. 9 hours ago Like
Malik Al-Ashtar Pwede kayong magtanong kay Datu Ko pagka-post niya ng Conclusion niya. 9 hours ago Like
Michael Ryan Tlaga natatawa ko hehehe! Loser clutches straw when he is about drown by his own medicine. Call Hussein Abinak the last bastion of Iranian led religion. Hehehehe. 9 hours ago via mobile Like

Hussein Abinal I accepted the challenge of Abu Jaiyana on his assertion on the legitimacy of the khilafat of Abu Bakr but I think he wants it done in Tacurong. He should be advised that FB is now the best way to disseminate the truth or falsehood. 9 hours ago via mobile Like 1
Guro Sa Palao hindi denempensahan ni Da tuko, ang Guilty siya at ang kanyang kultong shia sa '' SHIRK'' .. IMBES ang laman ng kanyang haka haka, ay [owlil amr]..para siyang nasa ibang planeta,, 8 hours ago Like
Michael Ryan Yan ang gusto ko namin ang totoo lalaki di umaayaw sa laban. Paging the Saifullah of this Forum AbuJaina....Asadullah of this Forum is accepting challenge. This means Dato Ko has cryingly accepted his bitter defeat..... 8 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO maraming tanong na wala naman sa topic bakit ko naman ililigaw ang usapan. 2 hours ago Edited Like 1
Harballah Islam minsan may mga taong talunan na humihirit pa kahit talo na congrats akh Abu Jaiyana 7 hours ago Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis ahaha palusot pa si datuko knock out na nga eh. 7 hours ago via mobile Like
Jannine Bint Maa Shaa Allah! Ya Allah! Guide us to the Sirat Al-mustaqeem! 6 hours ago Like 2
Datu KO knock out daw.. di yata alam ano ang knock out. 2 hours ago Like 1
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis ulol ang yabang mo lagi kang nangongoreksyon temang ka parin, til now? 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO kung alam mo ang sinasabi mo dapat explain mo ano ba ang knock out at bakt mo nasabing knockout ako? 2 hours ago Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis wala naman kayong binatbat hamon kau ng hamon like lang ninyo ang topic ng walang kabulohan. 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO hehehehe aya nila ang conclusion ko Malik Al-Ashtar dahil makikita nila papaano sasampalin ng mga ulama ng sunni at wahabi ang nagsasabi na calling the prophet and the imams is polytheism. . . nakita mo naman apat na madhahib ng sunni ang nakaharap ni Abu Jaiyana 2 hours ago Like
Hussein Abinal Puso mo Sandra.... 2 hours ago via mobile Like 1

Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis nagsasayang lang kau ng oras. Ikaw datuko dami mo ng hinamon sa debate nd pa tapos sa isa panibago na naman. Ahaha kumain ka na lang ng tae at uminom ng ihi ng imaams ninyo para mataohan kau. 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Hussein Abinal I post mo na bro. 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Datu KO hintayin natin bro ang ang go signal ni abu baka hindi niya basahin dahil sa kahihiyan. 2 hours ago Like
Hussein Abinal Pag inantay baka di mo na ma i post. 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis nyahaha nakakatawa naman pagsasampalin daw ng mga ulama ang mga sunni. hilig mong mag alibay datuko ang yabang mo pa. 2 hours ago via mobile Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg kayo man ang nakakahiya sa harap ni Allah at ng buong sanlibutan dahil mga kuffar kayo...lalo kana ... datu ko ko...manok hahahahha....kahihiyan kayo ng lanao del sur ... mga shia shia... phangalalak lak a mga shia shia.... kuamain nlang kayo ng tae,,... at pag aralan nyo ng maigi kng panu mag mut'ah para mapaligaya nyo mga partner nyo.... mga burikat..... about an hour ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg ayaw mo pa tanggapin na talo ka... e simula nong magmurtad ka at sumali jn sa shia rafidah na sekta ni satanas.... YOU ARE ALREADY A LOSSER..... LOSSER DATU KO KO MANOK.... about an hour ago Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis nyahahaha about an hour ago via mobile Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg diba? losser na nga xa jn sa religion nya na.... shia rafidah... ayaw pa nya tanggapin.... mabuhay ang islam!!! yahooooo.... mamatay na ang shia rafidah!!!!!!!!! about an hour ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg amen about an hour ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg subukan nyang sabihin na pagsasampalin nya ang mga ulama ng sunni sa harap ng maraming tao alin man sa mga muslim area sa pinas... i swear it to God,,,, lalabas xa sa lugar na yon na isa nalang malamig na bangkay.... kasi... napaka irrational at walang katuturan ang paniniwala nila... astagfirullah... siirknubu tyaman o Allah.... mga kafir!! about an hour ago Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis cnabi rin nila na pagtatadyakan nila ang kubor ng rasulullah s.a.w at fatima [ra] pag makita nila doon sa madina. Hmmmmp! Kala nila basta2x yon napapasukan ng mga tulad nilang shiaaaa. Mga shiakooooy! about an hour ago via mobile Like Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg the truth is... noong dumating ang islam... sa persia o iran... ang pananampalataya ng mga persian ay majosiyyah(magianism) yong sumasamba sa apoy at maraming mga santo at mga diyos... nong maging muslim cla... pinaghalo nila ngayn un at ung nauna nilang religion... so ang kinalabasan? ......SHIA RAFIDAH... cla ang islamic version ng simbahang katoliko(mga fake na muslim)......cla rin ang modern version ng asrul jahiliyyah ....noong unang panahon,.. di mo cla dapat pakinggan... dahil gusto lang nilang ibalik ang pananampalatayang pagano... pagkaraang linisin ng Allah ang mundo sa pagdating ng islam... mas nakakatakot yan cla kays a sa mga christians at mga jews dahil mga mushrikcla alam mo kng bibigyan lang sila ng pagkakataong komontrol ng masjid al haram...
lalagyan nila un ng maraming karatola na nagsasabing: "labbayka ya hussay" labbayka ya zainab... astagfirullah3x wag sanang ipahintulot ng Allah na makuha nila ang haramain ashsharifayn.... dahil tiyak na babalik ang pananampalatayang pagano sa makkah... audhubillahi mon dhalik..... about an hour ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg sa sobrang katangahan mo datu koko manok di mo ma destinguesh ang pagkakaiba ng tawasul at shirkul ebadah.... i define mo nga kong anu ang shirkul ebadah? about an hour ago Like
Sandra Macalma Maido Anglis sa mga hadith nyo naman yan datuko. about an hour ago via mobile Edited Like
Hussein Abinal The Sunnites and Shi'a disagreed. Some believed and others disbelieved. 2:253, 4:55 If the Sunnites are the believers, what have they believed that makes them the true believers?... See More 43 minutes ago via mobile Like 1
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg BECAUSE WE UPHOLD THE TAWHID IN IT'S PUREST FORM... WE WORSHIP NO ONE EXCEPT ALLAH, AND WE DENIE THOSE WHO ASCRIBE PARTNERS IN THE WORSHIP OF OUR LORD... 41 minutes ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS 40 minutes ago Like
Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg PERIOD. 40 minutes ago Like

Rodjaib Dangcal Ampatua Manaleseg THEIR TAWASSUL IS NOT TAWASSUL ANYMORE BUT SHIRK AL EBADAH SHIRK AL AKBAR,,... SA MAKATUWID... MGA MUSHRIK CLA 39 minutes ago Like
Hussein Abinal Rodjaib The Tawassul you considered as shirk is a Qur'anic verse. Do you think it has been abrogated? ...See More 37 minutes ago via mobile Like 1
Hussein Abinal The Sunnites, while believing in Allah s.w.t., the Qur'an, the Rasul s.a.w.a. the Sunnah, the Hereafter, the Angels a.s., the Jannah and the Naar disbelieved in 1. Imamah / Khilafat / Wilayah of the Ahlulbayt a.s. 2. Infallibility of the Prophets a.s and the Imams a.s. 3. Intercession of the Imams a.s. 4. Taqiyyah 5. Mut'ah 6. Extra- ordinary knowledge and wisdom of the Imams a.s. 7. The total and absolute purity of the Ahlulbayt a.s. 27 minutes ago via mobile Like
Special Comment:
Michael Ryan BREAKING NEWS....The shia represented by Datu has lost the debate to Ahlul Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'at represented by Abu Jaina.The debate is as exhilirating as the recently concluded championship game between Miami Heat and San Antonio Spurs. The match up is very close down the stretch. Dato Ko could have win if he had not committed so many turnover in the closing game. Those few mistakes were capitalized by AbuJaina to his advantage and eventually win the debate. Meanwhile Dato ko and his cohorts were still in a state of shock they could not believe that such a gigantic fighter of his caliber would be defeated especially that it was happen in their homecourt. Until now some of his cheering squad are beating their chest because of the magnitude of the lost. Rumors has reached us some of their
comrades express their doubt as to the veracity of their belief system. In fact they are joined by their brothers and sisters in Paris who stage rallied there demanding change in their government in Iran. This is your host stay tune for the next update.
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DEBATE Resolve The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Ja'fari Sect) Is A Polytheist Sect

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The 12 Imamite Shiaism (Jafari Sect) Is A Polytheistic (Mushrik) Sect

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Mishkat al Masabih, Volume 4 page 576 Hadith 5 June 19 at 11:34pm Like 3

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End of the Debate

Audiences Comments after the debate:

Montaser Hassan 14 hours ago via mobile Like

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Abu Jaiyana http://www.scribd.com/doc/128165962/Atty-Hussein-Abinal-vs-AbuJaiyana-Debate-on-Mutah-TemporaryMarriage

Abu Jaiyana http://www.scribd.com/doc/130782836/DEBATE-Atty-Hussein-Abinal-Shia-vs-AbuJaiyana-Ahlus-Sunnah-TheImamite-Doctine-Of-12er-Shiaism-Is-Part-Of-The-Islamic-Faith-pdf

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Hussein Abinal Correct bro. 10 hours ago via mobile Like 1

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9 hours ago Like 2

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9 hours ago Like 1

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9 hours ago Edited Like 1

Guro Sa Palao knock out ka na Da tuko,.. ahehehe. 9 hours ago Like

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Hussein Abinal Puso mo Sandra.... 2 hours ago via mobile Like 1

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