PRIME MINISTER

TRANSCRIPT OF JOINT PRESS CONFERENCE TOWNSVILLE 16 JULY 2013 E & O E PROOF ONLY Subjects: Climate change policy; Visit to North Queensland; Asylum seeker policy; Election campaign PM: Thanks very much for coming. It is great to be back in Townsville. I have been to this great city in Queenslands north many, many times over the years. As I travel around North Queensland and the rest of the nation it's clear to me that many Australians are feeling cost of living pressures. This is real, not just in Queensland's north, but around the nation. It is equally clear that most Australians want to see their nation doing its bit, playing its part to protect the environment from the effects of climate change. The Government has decided to terminate the carbon tax, to help cost of living pressures for families and to reduce costs for small business. From 1 July next year Australia will move to an emissions trading scheme, one that is used around the world including in countries like Britain, like Germany and soon in China itself. The modelling from Treasury shows that in the financial year 2014-15 an average family will receive a cost of living relief to the value of $380 per year. This is modest relief, but it's real. This contrasts with Mr Abbott's plan and its impact is also real. We calculate it will cost the same average family $1200 per year more when fully implemented. We expect the change that we are bringing in will see the price on carbon fall from an expected $25.40 a tonne by next July to around $6 a tonne. This is a big change. Treasury modelling tells us this will reduce pressures on consumers and on businesses.

Every Australian should be clear about the Government's new ETS and that it will leave average families $380 per year better off while Mr Abbott's scheme, once fully implemented at least $1200 a year worse off. I want to emphasise that very clearly. This is a big difference when it comes to the future. Under this scheme that we are bringing in, this will mean average families $380 a year better off, under Mr Abbott's scheme when fully implemented $1200 a year worse off. When I was elected back in 2007 as Prime Minister I was elected to bring in an emissions trading scheme and a floating price. In fact, in the same election, Mr Abbott campaigned with Mr Howard also to bring in an emissions trading scheme. I remind you what Mr Abbott had to say back in 2009 when he said, you can't have a climate change policy without an emissions trading scheme. Mr Abbott's words, not mine. Mr Abbott said, You can't have a climate change policy without an emissions trading scheme. Or as Mr Hockey, the alternative treasurer, said in the same year 2009: The Liberals, he said, were the initiators of the emissions trading scheme. The Liberals went to the 2007 election promising to introduce an emissions trading scheme. Well, my attitude to all that is pretty basic. I agree with them. Let's give credit where credit's due. I have also made it plain in recent days that any change to our policy must be budget neutral. This change, to reduce the cost of living pressures for families, will cost $3.8 billion over the forward estimates period for the budget. We'll make up for the lost revenue with savings in other government programs. This is the fiscally responsible thing to do. The nation's 370 biggest polluters will continue to pay for their carbon pollution but the cost will be reduced, meaning less pressure on consumers.

We will also be maintaining our special assistance payments given to families and low income earners to take account of the effect of carbon pricing. In other words, our Household Assistance Package, family payments and for pensioners will continue. I believe overall this is a good package. It's a balanced package. It's good for families. It's good for pensioners. It's good for small business. It's also good for the environment and when I visit a wonderful place like Townsville, when I'm up in North Queensland and when we are here right on the door step of the Great Barrier Reef, I'm certain we're taking the correct action. We want our kids and our grandkids, and I've got one now, to be able to enjoy one of Australia's greatest natural assets. We don't want them to be able to just read about the Great Barrier Reef in some history book in the future. We want them to experience the Great Barrier Reef in the future. As well as being a natural wonder of world, the Great Barrier Reef has also bought $6.2 billion to the tourism economy here alone in North Queensland. So action on climate change, international action as well as national action on climate change, also means for us in Australia jobs and real jobs into the future. Tens of thousands of jobs into the future. On the question of the budget impact I'll now turn to Treasurer Chris Bowen and then to Mark Butler on the impact of our action on the important task of continued work on climate change. TREASURER: Thank you very much, Prime Minister. Today is of course an important step in our positive economic plan to deal with the post mining boom world, to assist Australia in the transition and to spur more investment in manufacturing services across our economy and also to provide real cost of living relief to families. The bringing forward of the emissions trading scheme to 2014 does come at a cost to the budget of $3.8 billion over the forward estimates. This has been more than fully funded by the Government.

We've done so in such a way that there is no impact on the Household Assistance Package, that is protected. We've also protected investments in the renewable energy sector with no change to funding to ARENA and no change the RET or to the Clean Energy Finance Corporation. We've also done so in a way which has no reduction in funding to the Jobs and Competitiveness Program which supports trade-exposed emissions intensive industries. The Government has decided to make $3.9 billion worth of savings decisions over the forward estimates meaning we are actually making a contribution to the budget bottom line of $177 million over the next 4 years. I'm going to outline these savings to you now. It will take me a couple of minutes obviously to run through them all for you. Firstly in relation to the Energy Security Fund we will be saving $770 million over the forward estimates by bringing forward the 2015-16 free permits to 201415 and discontinuing the program after that. This saving recognises the significant benefit for generators of the decision that is being announced today and there has been broad consultation with the industry about this. We are also changing the funding in the Clean Technology Investment Program and the Carbon Capture and Storage flagship program which will be the subject of savings and some re-profiling saving $586 million over the forward estimates. We're also making a saving in the Coal Sector Jobs Package, saving $186 million in 2014-15 ensuring the value of the assistance adjusts to the new carbon price. We're also making a budget saving in the Biodiversity Fund returning unallocated funds to the budget saving $213 million over the forward estimates. This fund does overlap with the Caring For Our Country allocation and was funded through the carbon tax. We're also reducing our funding to the Carbon Farming Futures Program saving $144 million over the forward estimates. We're also making some general savings decisions and announcing those today making a contribution to paying for the decision that we're announcing.

We're abolishing the statutory formula in relation to fringe benefits tax on cars and I'll just spend a couple of minutes on this because this is a significant savings decision. This will save $1.8 billion over the forward estimates. Now the current statutory formula allows people who are claiming fringe benefits tax relief to just nominate a figure of 20 per cent and not justify that claim. The world has moved on from when this system was introduced in 1986. We now have much better technology, so that people can use phone apps and other devices which are much easier than keeping a log book. The rules stipulate that it's necessary to keep a log book for up to 12 weeks over a 5 year period but this can now be done through mobile phone technology and applications which are easily downloadable on the web. This means that people can claim this if they are entitled to it very easily and there is no longer any justification for the statutory percentage method of claiming fringe benefits tax use on cars. It's important to note that many tradespeople and others who already use log books are not affected by this change. In fact it does not affect the 3.6 million Australians who directly claim the fringe benefits tax relief through their tax returns. It does affect potentially around 320,000 people who are expected no longer to be able to justify that percentage claim. This will be effective for all contracts entered into from this time forward but there will be a transition in place until April 2014 to ensure people have time to make the transition and to factor that into their calculations. It does not affect people who are already have a contract in place, it is only contracts entered into from this time forward. We're also announcing some public service efficiency measures today, recognising the good work that's been done in the Department of Finance in better procurement of software and also recognising that we are in a position to make some modest changes to the executive level and senior executive services of the Australian public service with a 1 per cent reduction in the number of staff at those levels across the board.

Again, this has been worked through by the Department of Finance very methodically and carefully. This as I say means that this decision means that we have a positive impact on the budget bottom line. These savings measures will not be universally popular with everybody. They are not easy to make; savings decisions never are. But they are the right decisions to make in a fiscally make responsible way. This announcement today means we embrace the market mechanism in a way that should be done. This contrasts the approach by others. I saw Mr Abbott yesterday saying a socalled market in the non-delivery of an invisible substance to no-one. This increasingly shrill commentary from the Opposition combined with the shrill commentary from Mr Hunt on the weekend shows the Liberal Party really doesn't understand that the rest of the world is moving to a market mechanism in a way which is environmentally responsive and responsible and that's what this Government is announcing today. I will hand over to Minister Butler. MINISTER BUTLER: Thank you, Prime Minister. Thank you, Treasurer. As both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer have indicated, this is a very important measure that delivers cost of living relief to households and to Australian businesses. But I also want to say to the millions of Australians who care deeply about their environment and who are committed to the fight against climate change; that this decision also preserves the integrity of our commitment to reduce carbon pollution and to fight that climate change that we know is happening today. The environmental integrity of this program is recognised across the world. Across the world people recognise the most efficient and the most effective way to drive down carbon pollution is through an emissions trading scheme. As the Treasurer and Prime Minister indicated this is a scheme that already operates in many, many advanced economies like Great Britain, Germany, France, California and many other states of the US and Canada.

We have an emissions trading scheme ready to start the year after next in South Korea and China only this month has started their emissions trading schemes in Shenzhen and will start soon in many other cities covering a population of more than 200 million people with the aim to have a national emissions trading scheme operate in 2015. The thing about an emissions trading scheme from the environment's perspective is that it sets a legal limit on the amount of carbon pollution that can be dumped into the atmosphere every year, a limit that reduces every year so that we actually can turn this climate emergency around. Now this is a feature that is completely lacking from Tony Abbott's so-called direct action plan, a plan as the Prime Minister indicates, that would have an impact on the average household by the time it's fully implemented of around $1200 a year but does nothing to provide a legal limit on the amount of carbon pollution being dumped into the atmosphere. The other thing from the environmental integrity perspective, I just want to draw attention to, was alluded to by the Treasurer. This has been a very difficult exercise to find savings to ensure the revenue gap of $3.8 billion is covered. But in addition to protecting households from that exercise completely, we've also been able to protect all of our renewable energy programs so that we can continue to build clean energy sources for Australia like wind power and solar power. Now these resources increased their market share of the national electricity market last year by more than 25 per cent alone. They already deliver 24,000 jobs in Australia and as the Prime Minister indicated we know that they will deliver tens and tens of thousands more jobs into the future. This has been a central feature of our program to combat climate change. When Prime Minister Rudd was elected in 2007 there were about 7000 households that had roof top solar electricity; now there are more than 1 million. Only recently we announced the opening of the largest wind farm in the Southern Hemisphere supported by the Government's Clean Energy Finance Corporation. This is utterly central to the program to combat climate change. Again it's an element of environmental policy that only last week we saw

Tony Abbott and the Liberal Party start to walk away from but I'm very proud that in this quite challenging exercise we've been able to ensure that our commitment to renewable energy is absolutely untouched. PM: So, in summary, this is a good day for Australia. It's an important day for Australia. It's an important day for bringing about cost of living pressures relief to families and relief also to small businesses who are battling hard. It's modest relief but its real relief. It's also a good day for the environment as we continue our efforts nationally, in partnership with the international community to bring about a sustainable reduction in greenhouse gas emissions so that we can have a liveable planet for the future. JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, you're in regional Queensland on a kind of short tour, what can Queenslanders expect from you? PM: Well I would say that Queenslanders have a pretty big interest in the carbon price. I think Queenslanders have a pretty big interest in cost of living pressures and that Queenslanders have an interest in how much their household budgets will be affected by this measure or, if they were to elect Mr Abbott as Prime Minister, what it would cost them then. So I'd say to all Queenslanders and all Australians, under our plan average families will be $380 a year better off as opposed to Mr Abbott's so-called plan which would leave them $1200 a year worse off when fully implemented. That is a bottom line figure for all Queenslanders and all Australians. JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, you've said it's a good day for the environment as well but a lower carbon price, less incentive to reduce emissions. You've also got money out of programs such as the Clean Technology Fund. How is it going to help reduce emissions? How is it a good day for the environment? PM: Well let me answer that in two specific ways and then I will ask the Minister for the Environment and Climate Change to supplement my answer. Number one, you're looking at the Government which ratified the Kyoto Protocol.

Number two, you're looking at the Government which also brought in a mandatory renewable energy target of 20 per cent by 2020 and that one, together with other mechanisms which the Government has in place, is frankly supporting a boom in the renewable energy sector in this country. Therefore we see massive transformations occurring around power generation countrywide. I'll turn to the Minister to supplement my answer. MINISTER BUTLER: Thank you, Prime Minister. The important thing about an emissions trading scheme, as I said earlier, is that there is a legal limit on the amount of carbon pollution that can be put into the atmosphere. That is what the environment cares about. The environment doesn't care what price is being paid for every tonne of carbon pollution, the environment just cares about the amount of carbon pollution. Now, we alone have a legal commitment to reducing carbon pollution through this type of scheme. Tony Abbott's direct action plan says nothing about the amount of carbon pollution legally that will be able to be dumped into the atmosphere over the next 10 years. We've set up a climate change authority that's chaired by Bernie Fraser, the former Reserve Bank governor, to provide the Government with advice on what that limit should be between now and 2020, and we're involved in an international process to ensure that there is international discussion which the United States, China and dozens of other countries have signed up to for a period beyond 2020. So the price is not the important thing from the environment's point of view. From the environment's point of view it just wants to know that there is less carbon pollution being spewed into the atmosphere and ours is the only scheme that has that legal limit. Can I also just support the Prime Minister's comments about renewable energy sources. Last year alone in the 2012-13 financial year, we actually saw carbon pollution

from the national electricity market reduce by more than 7 per cent because of the very big increase in the share of electricity generation by renewables. As I said, a share that increased by more than 25 per cent last year alone. So in addition to us having legal limits on carbon pollution emissions each year between now and 2020, committed to an international process for a system beyond 2020, we're also doing what the Opposition will not do, which is provide certainty to the renewable energy sector so we can continue to build solar power capacity and wind power capacity to start to take share away from more carbon polluting sources like coal power. JOURNALIST: In regards to the public service cuts, how many people is that and how much is it going to save? Do you have a figure yet? PM: I will just draw your attention to a couple of points and then the Treasurer will add to my answer. We're here in Townsville. 220 people have been axed by Campbell Newman here at Townsville Hospital alone. Stacks of nurses and stacks and other health professionals. In fact, we see that by Campbell Newman's Liberal National Party Government across Queensland. Fourteen thousand people have lost their jobs. This has had a huge effect on job security and confidence on the part of small business. This Australian Government is investing in Queensland, it is investing across Australia. The number of jobs that have been added here in North Queensland through the National Broadband Network project is significant. The jobs that weve added so far through the building of school libraries and multipurpose facilities in recent years has been huge. Here in Townsville the continued work on our $420 million worth of investment in the roads system around here means more local jobs. So we have been investing a lot. And what the Minister was referring to before was reforms to our public procurement system. TREASURER: Thanks Prime Minister. The efficiency steps that the Department of Finance has been working on will save $248 million over four years.

These changes will be exclusively in the executive and senior executive ranks of the public service. There are approximately 44,500 currently, positions in those ranks and that will reduce over time by about 800 positions. Now, in context, these positions have grown by about 29 per cent over a period where the general public service has grown by about 6 per cent. So all the calculations and all the indications would indicate that this will be an appropriately measured and balanced step over time. JOURNALIST: Are most of those jobs based in Canberra? TREASURER: You would expect them to be, yes. JOURNALIST: Will these be redundancies? TREASURER: Obviously the preference is always through natural attrition over time. JOURNALIST: Minister you said the price doesn't matter in terms of the environment. But obviously its a market mechanism so the price is set by the number of permits and so on. In Europe, which were tying to, there has been a collapse in the price there and there has been criticism the level is too high. So how are we going to make sure that our level is not going to be too high in terms of how many permits are issued like there clearly has been in Europe? MINISTER BUTLER: That is right. So thats why we have established the Climate Change Authority, an independent body with very substantial experienced people as members of that Authority. As I said, chaired by Bernie Fraser, the former Reserve Bank Governor, and he will be providing or the Authority will be providing draft advice as early as October I think, and final advice by the end of February, on what those caps should look like out to 2020. So that isJOURNALIST: And will there be a cap linked from Europe then? MINISTER BUTLER: The caps are a different question to the price. We have an arrangement to link with European Union in terms of being able to trade permits across between Australia and Europe, but the caps that are put in place here and the caps put in place by the European Commission will be done independently.

And at the end of the day, that is the important thing from the environment point of view. What are the number of tons of carbon pollution going into the atmosphere, both between now and 2020, but obviously in terms of our international negotiations beyond then? The other part of the picture other than just the price and say the competitive balance between renewable energy and coal fire power stations, for example, is our commitment to the renewable energy target to ensure that the electricity market has at least 20 per cent renewables as a base by 2020. We are very confident, given the investments and the support we have given that sector, that we will make that 20 per cent relatively comfortably. Unfortunately though, Tony Abbott and the Liberal Party have started to step away from their commitment to the renewable energy target as well. Weve seen in South Australia, with good support, only last year renewable energy constituted 30 per cent of the South Australian electricity market. We know with the sorts of supports that we are giving that sector, the certainty on their investment through a renewable energy target out to 2020, that renewables can continue to grow and continue to carve into the carbon pollution that we provide into the atmosphere. JOURNALIST: Can we take this as an admission that the price that was originally negotiated with the Greens was too high? MINISTER BUTLER: If I can say a couple of things about that. I think at the time the carbon tax was introduced, there was a view that it would take some years for the system to settle into place. I think what weve seen over the first 12 months is that the 370 businesses that are liable to pay the carbon price have settled into a system with the Clean Energy Regulator relatively smoothly with one exception, Clive Palmer, who has refused to pay his liability but otherwise very smoothly. And the advice we have got is that we don't need this three-year period to transition to an emissions trading scheme which is why we have taken the decision today, or announced the decision today, to terminate the carbon tax and make an earlier move to an emissions trading scheme; the type of scheme that is operated in so many parts of the world. JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, just on the savings, in terms ofPM: Just let me add to that and I will take your question.

Let's be very clear about this. We have had extensive Cabinet consultation on this for some weeks and deliberations and these are tough decisions. Theyve got to be fiscally responsible, and theyve got to be environmentally responsible, and they have to serve the interests of families who are under financial pressure. But today, we have taken a decision to terminate the carbon tax. Today we are announcing a decision to move to a floating price. Mr Abbott often has said in the past, Well the problem with pricing carbon is that countries like China are not on board. Well, I think Mr Abbott needs to look at what is happening in China. China, for its own reasons has decided it must act on climate change by bringing in a carbon price and its 2015 target of moving to that, in terms of most provinces in the country, is a very important step globally. China, now, is the world's largest emitter. They need to do this for themselves and for the planet. Our job is to play our part. The other point Id make is this. When people look to questions of national leadership on climate change or on the economy, they actually want to know that those decisions are properly considered. And when I see statements like the one that Mr Abbott made the other day, when he described carbon pollution as invisible and therefore I presume is not real it is a bit like saying that because air is invisible, it is not real. I mean, it just doesnt make sense. People around the country just scratch their head when they wonder about such a person's qualifications for being Prime Minister of the country. So for us, this is carefully considered, well thought out. We worked on this for a long period of time. And we believe we have got the balance right, both for the country, the families, for small businesses and for the environment, including this wonderful Barrier Reef. JOURNALIST: Just on the costs: so that figure of $380, are there projections further on, I would assume that would fall with the projection of the carbon price going up?

And on Mr Abbott's plan how is that going to cost $1200 if he too will keep that compensation and make cuts in a similar fashion you have done today? TREASURER: That $380 figure is in relation to the coming financial year and that is the cost based on Treasury modelling. JOURNALIST: Does that drop? TREASURER: It is a one year figure based on the Treasury's view of the carbon price. In relation to Mr Abbott's plan, Mr Abbott's plan is to subsidise polluters. Is to subsidise polluters on their application. Now any significant steps to reduce pollution come at great cost. Come at great cost and must be paid for. So its up to Mr Abbott to refute that this would be the cost of his plan. His plan subsidises polluters directly. He calls it Direct Action. It is a direct subsidy plan to polluters, to say come to the Government and we will pay you. We will pay you. And that comes at an enormous cost to the Budget, as has been calculated through the normal processes. PM: Let's be very plain. Treasury modelling is that under our plan, following the abolition of the carbon tax, average families will be $380 a year better off as opposed to Mr Abbott's plan, when fully implemented, which will leave them $1200 a year worse off. And if we're talking about cost of living pressures for families across Australia, thats important. Let me add one other thing. On electricity prices and gas prices, a number of people around the country have been calling upon us to take this action. Well, weve acted. The biggest contributor to energy prices around Australia, in fact, has come from state governments in the main and in the case of a number of them, gouging consumers and gouging small businesses to reap a big profit dividend to the state government budgets. We have done our bit, so its time the Liberal National Party Governments in Queensland and elsewhere in the country state governments generally

where this is happening to start acting as well because they represent the biggest hit on overall energy prices in the country. JOURNALIST: We have heard that assistance will continue for families but what about the 370 businesses liable to pay? MINISTER BUTLER: We made a promise that the Household Assistance Package would remain untouched and we make no apology for standing by that promise. In terms of the 370 businesses that are liable to pay this, theyll see a 75 per cent reduction in their carbon price liability based on where we think the price, or where Treasury advises us the price, will be. A 75 per cent reduction. As the Treasurer said, weve also decided to keep in place entirely the assistance to those industries which are emissions intensive so produce a lot of carbon pollution but are also trade exposed, for the reason we don't want to see them simply close down and move to some other countries. So those free permits, the assistance that we give, up to 92 per cent of free permits, will also remain untouched. So they will have the 92 per cent of free permits, plus a carbon price that is reduced by 75 per cent. So if anything, those industries are significantly better off as a result of our decision to terminate the carbon tax. JOURNALIST: Minister you mentioned the re-profiling of the Carbon Capture Scheme, what does that mean? MINISTER BUTLER: Carbon capture and storage is a technology that has a lot of potential to contribute to our plan and our commitment to reduce carbon pollution. But we have taken advice that the projects that are currently going through a feasibility process are unlikely to be ready for the funding thats currently profiled in the years in which it is profiled. So our advice has been the best thing to do is to defer that funding for years beyond the forward estimates which is likely to be when the projects will be ready for the sort of investment we're talking about. PM: I am a big supporter of the coal industry here in Queensland.

I am a Queenslander. Its got potential, its got a future, its got a real future. But if you're supporting the coal industry, you also have to be investing in clean coal technologies. And there are a number of available technologies and Mark is absolutely right, these are coming slower to fruition than many of us would have liked, not just here but around the world. They are complex technologies. So carbon sequestration storage, this is important work, but we have got to be sensible about how long it is going to take to bring them on stream. On the question more broadly of the carbon price and the debate which has erupted in recent days on this, Mr Abbott has walked away from his commitment at the 2007 election when he said we must have an emissions trading scheme. Mr Hockey is walking away from his statement that the Liberal Party is the inventor of the emissions trading scheme. We have put forward our plan pretty plainly. How we are going to pay for it from the budget, how its going to affect households, and the action we will still take on the environment. So, Mr Abbott, you did not want to debate me on debt and deficit at the National Press Club, even though that forms a large part of your political ads on television at the moment. Heres the challenge: you pick the day next week at the National Press Club to debate the carbon price. The Emissions Trading Scheme under this Government versus your scheme. And let the people decide, through that debate, whether we have the facts supporting our case or yours. Any day next week. JOURNALIST: Prime Minister can I just get clarification on the cost? You have said a couple of times it is $380 a year. Just confirming that is the first year only, and also in terms of the carbon price at forward estimates, is it still predicted to go up to $38 as per previous modelling? TREASURER: The $380 figure relates to the floating price coming forward by one year.

So very clearly, in 2015, we would have been moving to a floating price anyway. We have taken the decision the right thing to do is to bring it forward by 12 months, and that is the impact over that 12 month period. As the Prime Minister said, its modest but real. And that is one of the reasons we have taken this decision. In relation to the carbon price estimates in the Budget and by Treasury, they are based on a rolling average over a period, I think, of three months in relation to the carbon price around the world; with a very clear recognition of the European price being the main determinant of the carbon price around the world. JOURNALIST: How can you assure us that the figures you are stating are correct? TREASURER: Let me draw you to the attention of the Treasury modelling about the carbon price all the way through. Despite the scare campaign, despite the rhetoric we have seen, the Treasury modelling has been spot on all the way through. So somebody would need to show me evidence that that won't be the case on this occasion. JOURNALIST: One quick question on asylum seeker policy: the Coalition has welcomed Indonesia's Minister saying that their Government would talk about turning back the boats policy. That has since been clarified, what is your response to that? PM: Well its pretty interesting what has been said on this subject just in recent days. I notice that the position taken by Mr Abbott is that he still believes he can turn back the boats. I note what the Indonesian Foreign Minister had to say about this last night, The unilateral level comes forth when certain national measures taken without due consideration or communication, at least when some other affected countries are involved. this is where it can be troublesome. Can I then go on to paraphrase what he says, and that is that he sees there are real difficulties with this sort of unilateral action. I draw your attention carefully to what the Indonesian Foreign Minister has said last night.

On the question, which is a real question for all of Australia on asylum seekers, as we seek to adjust and change our policy in response to the new challenges which are emerging: you either have a real policy which deals with the problem and reduces it over time, or you have a simplistic, negative threeword slogan which frankly is just a bit lazy because it doesn't actually produce the results. So I would draw everyone's attention to what the Indonesian Foreign Minister had to say this morning. Thanks very much folks. [ENDS]