RECEIVED

THE WHITE HOUSE

MAY 2 2 Z003
Office of the Press Secretary
(Crawford, Texas) National Commission on
Terrorist Attacks
Internal Transcript August 22, 2002

INTERVIEW OF JOE HAGIN

BY SCOTT PELLEY, CBS

Hilton Hotel
Portland, Oregon

8:05 P.M. PDT

Q September 12th, at the Pentagon. The President arrives there. Paint that picture
for me. What was that scene like? ~

MR. HAGIN: Well, there were

Q He's probably, never in his life, seen anything like that.

MR. HAGIN: No, I don't think any of us had seen anything like that. There was the big,
gaping hole in the building, hundreds of rescuers waiting for him.

Word had filtered through we had tried to keep it fairly quiet for security reasons. But
word had filtered among the rescuers that he was coming, and there was a lot of excitement,
really. I think it was a nice, temporary break from the terrible job that they were doing.

And they had lined up, several hundred yards' worth of people in a line, no ropes like we
normally have, just there, and everybody remained in place. And he got out of the car and
immediately went over to the first rescuers and military officers who were there and started
shaking hands and thanking everyone. And it was tough, emotionally. You could see it on all of
our faces, I think.

And Secretary Rumsfeld was with him and going around with him, but the President was
really connecting with the rescuers. And it was a tough time because, while we were there, they
were still bringing bodies out. They had rescue teams who were recovering the bodies and a
morgue team would bring them out.

And throughout our visit to the Pentagon and in New York, one of our guiding principles
was, we did not want to go in and do anything to disrupt the rescue operation. The President felt
very strongly about it. And those orders went out loud and clear that we were not to hinder
anything that was going on if there was the possibility of still saving a life.

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 So it was a tough scene. There was that smell that everybody talks about that was all
around Arlington and the Pentagon. And it was a somber scene. There was not I don't recall
the wild chanting and applause that there was in New York City.

And not long after we got there, the firefighters from Arlington who were on the roof of
the Pentagon unfurled the giant American flag over the side near where the impact point had
been, and that was very uplifting, I think, to everyone. And emotional. And the crowd sort of
cheered.

And then there was another less famous picture where three or four guys actually put a
flag on the roof of the Pentagon that was on a flag pole. But it was a great sort of defiant sign.

Q The President is talking to rescue workers and they're talking to him. What's
being said in those conversations?

MR. HAGIN: He told everyone how much he appreciated what they were doing and he
understood it was tough, tough work and just thanked everybody. He was effusive in his praise
and, you know, I think tried to make them feel that he understood how tough what they were
going through was. And, you know, he was obviously trying to lift people's spirits, and it did.

Q What were they saying to him?

MR. HAGIN: They were, for the most part, pretty quiet. They thanked him in return and
said, you know, you're doing a great job. And quite a few people were saying, you know, let's go
get these guys who did this. There was a lot of spirit, but it was very subdued.

Q Leaping ahead, what was the scene like at Ground Zero? Certainly television
does not do that scene justice. And when the President rolled up to it in the motorcade, it must
have been very striking.

MR. HAGIN: It was very striking. The first I should say that nothing that I ever saw
on TV or any still photograph or actually any written word comes close to being able to show or
describe the scene that we found there. It was so much more massive and extensive than you
could grasp from television. It was really breathtaking.

The first stop he made was at 7 World Trade Center, which was where the Secret Service
had been headquartered in New York City. And he was able there to get pretty close to the
rubble pile, as they called it.

Both places we went we actually stopped at two places, this was the first stop. And it
was it was where you could almost reach out and touch the massive beams that were twisted.
There was a bus right across the street, a New York City Transit bus, I would imagine. All that
was left of it was the frame and a glob where the engine had been, just melted. And they told us
that cars had been igniting three, four blocks away from where we were from the initial heat.
The street was caved in, I think down into a part of the subway.

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 And it was really sobering. Not a lot being said at the time. We were with Governor
Pataki and Mayor Giuliani, Senator Clinton was there with us, a couple members of Congress,
the fire commissioner and the police commissioner. And people were pretty quiet for a while,
just drinking it all in.

Q Did the President express shock at all? Did he say —

MR. HAGIN: I don't remember his exact words. He was clearly amazed and moved by
just how massive it was. And, of course, on that Friday, you could still smell the smells, you
could almost taste that there was still dust in the air, still smoke. You could tell there were fires
still burning below the rubble pile, and we were pretty close to that on the first stop.

Then we moved to the area where the construction workers were. The first stop, there
really wasn't anyone there. It was a fairly isolated corner, street corner that we went to, again, so
that everyone could see up close the rubble pile.

We got back into the motorcade and went a few blocks to an area where most of the TV
networks were showing the site of the top of the building that had fallen over and driven itself
into the ground. We were farther from the rubble pile at that point, farther from Ground Zero,
but had a much more panoramic view. And that's where the construction workers were
assembled and the firefighters. And we stopped at I think it was the New York Fire Department
Command Post 10 and went in.

And it was interesting, as there were some very senior chiefs, Fire Department chiefs in
that tent. And when they looked up and saw the President, they just dissolved into tears. I think
his presence was somewhat of a relief to a lot of people, and it just created we saw it with the
guys, the construction workers and the firefighters down where the President used the bullhorn to
address the crowd. So it was very emotional.

On the one hand, you would have people shouting, "U.S.A., U.S.A.,".and others who
would just weep when he came by. It was a real tug of war on your emotions. And then there
were those who were chanting "U.S.A." and crying at the same time. It was very moving and
very emotional and for the President -- for any President, whose movements are relatively sterile
in terms of the bubble. We were surrounded on all sides by masses of people. It was an unusual
position for us to be in.

And I think he you could see him drawing strength from it and the people from him.

Q He waded into the crowd.

MR. HAGIN: He waded into the crowd.

Q Much more than the Secret Service would have liked. This suddenly became
any White House is very scripted in all of its events, any White House is. But this suddenly
became very unscripted.

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 MR. HAGIN: Right. The President had just decided on Thursday that he was going to
go on Friday. We had less than 24 hours to go up and put that visit together, just in the life of a
President, just very short time. We normally spend seven to 10 days working on a trip like that,
and so it was relatively unscripted to begin with, but it became much more so as we moved
around the city.

Q How did you find out that he was going to go to New York that day?

MR. HAGIN: Andy Card and I had been having a discussion that morning about when
he should go. And the President had indicated that I think he was thinking about going over the
weekend. And I was arguing that we needed more time to put the trip together and maybe
Monday would be a good day. And we sort of ended the conversation without coming to a
decision.

The President was having a conversation with Governor Pataki and Mayor Giuliani on
live TV and I believe it was the Mayor who said, we hope we see you up here soon, sir. He said,
I'll be there tomorrow. We were surprised.

Q You thought what?

MR. HAGIN: Thought this was going to be tougher than we imagined. It was clearly an
important trip and, as usual, the President had made the right call. In retrospect, we didn't need
all that much time to put it together. The city needed him to go up there and the country needed
to see him there.

Q Moving on to the Javits Center, paint that picture for me. As you entered the
room with the President, you see a few hundred people.

MR. HAGIN: Yes, I think there were 300 people in the room. The fire and police unions
had helped put together a representative group of families of firefighters and policemen who
were either missing or were already confirmed dead. And we had gone to the Javits Center.

The President went around and thanked the FEMA urban search and rescue teams who
were also working out of the Javits Center, headquartered out of the Javits Center. And we left
that event and were walking towards the room where this event with the families was going to
be.

The President turned to us and said, I don't want any press in this room, and we don't
need any elected officials other than the Governor and the Mayor, and I don't want a lot of staff
hanging around. He knew he wanted this to be a personal appearance without an entourage.
And I think I think he knew how tough it was going to be, and it was very tough.

And the families were clearly glad to see him. They were moved by him being there and
the President and we were all moved by their presence. And it was pretty somber, and there
were amazing moments throughout. We were scheduled I think the President was scheduled to

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stay for 20 or 30 minutes maximum. I believe he left the room an hour and 45 minutes after he
went in. We're not usually off schedule by much.

And he just wouldn't or couldn't leave the room until they had touched everybody in the
room and there were a lot of tears and a lot of laughter. He almost ministered to each family as
they seemed to require it. If they wanted to laugh, he laughed. It was tough, really tough.

Q Did anyone on the staff say, Mr. President, we're running really late?

MR. HAGIN: We gave him a few options to leave throughout the time, and it was clear
that he wasn't going to leave. We backed off. He was going from there to the helicopter to go to
the airport and then on to Camp David. So we had time, we had the flexibility. And there were a
lot of staff and support people and Secret Service who literally couldn't stay in the room the
whole time. It was just too emotional for them.

And he was very strong and I've been doing this for a long time and I've never of
course, none of us have ever experienced anything like September 11th. But in terms of being
around Presidents, it was a remarkable couple of hours. ™

Q Okay, give me a sense of the White House operation that week. The demeanor
and the feeling of the place was the sense that September 11th happened and it was over and the
threat was done? Or was the sense the rest of the week that the White House could be a target at
any time, that the attack might not be over?

MR. HAGIN: Well, we had to it was incumbent on us to take precautions, to prevent

an attack that day or a week or a month from September 11th. So the people that I work with
who are extraordinary professionals, the Secret Service, the military, people at the White House
are an amazing group and everybody performed so admirably during that whole time and, to this
day, are still doing so. But, no, we had a job to do. We take the whole continuity of government
issue very seriously. We did prior to September 11th.

But they went to work, the Secret Service and the military, doing what they needed to do
to ensure that the President was safe, that the staff was safe, and that the programs were in place
to ensure the continuity of government. So, no, we took nothing for granted. We planned for the
worst case scenarios, because that's what we have to do.

Q What if this is a wildcard question. What, if anything, did the President say to
you that helped you stay on keel, that helped you keep your head where it should be?

MR. HAGIN: I think with this anniversary, a lot of us have talked and we looked back
on it, and his inner strength was so obvious to all of us that, when we would have an emotional
moment or want to say, why us, why now, why did this have to happen, he was always looking
forward. You know, he didn't dwell on what had happened on September 11th a lot. It was like,
what do we need to do to move forward. And I think that helped everybody on the staff.

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 And he went out of his way to pat people on the back and give people a hug and I think
we all learned a lot from the strength that he showed and the resolve that he showed. Yes, he
was emotional, we were emotional. But people realized it was a very serious job to do and they
went about doing it. No regrets, no looking back.

We are blessed we politicians who come in and occupy the White House for a short
amount of time are really blessed with the career folks. And, again, the military and the Secret
Service and the crew of Air Force One. I had so much confidence.

I have been asked so many times, were you worried about the President? And my
response really is, honestly, no, I wasn't, because of the professionalism of the people that
support the Presidency, who are there between -- you know, administrations come and go but
these people have been doing this for a long time and they're very good at it. Once I knew he
was on Air Force One, I was real comfortable that things were going to be okay.

Q Terrific. Thank you very, very, very much.

— END
8:30 P.M. PDT

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