Campaign Transcript

TRANSCRIPT OF PRIME MINISTER KEVIN RUDD INTERVIEW WITH LEIGH SALES 7 30 REPORT 5 SEPTEMBER 2013 E & O E PROOF ONLY _____________________________________________________________ Coalition cuts and costings; Election campaign; Labors Better Schools Plan; Defence Force Structure Review; Northern Australia; Labors plan to build the economy of the future. _____________________________________________________________ LEIGH SALES: As we enter the final 24 hours of the campaign, the opinion polls universally have Labor in a losing position and the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is under intense pressure. Labor's campaign has been largely built around the Coalition's economic credibility and the Government's claim that Tony Abbott is hiding plans for massive spending cuts. So the release of the Coalition costings today was a make or break moment for both parties. The Prime Minister is in Western Sydney tonight from where he joined me a short time ago. Prime Minister, thank you for your time. PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having me on the program, Leigh. SALES: Today, have your five weeks of scaremongering over Coalition costings come to nought? PM: I think if you look carefully at the statement by Mr Abbott and Mr Hockey and Mr Robb today, it's very plain that here we are, 24 hours before an election, and we have no comprehensive list at all of their cuts, their massive cuts to jobs, health and education. And in fact, we have no detail at all, as required under the Charter of

Budget Honesty. So I believe the Australian people go into a poll in 24 hours' time legitimately concerned about how these cuts will impact their lives, their jobs, their schools, their hospitals. SALES: But Prime Minister, how can we trust what you say on Opposition costings when last week the two most senior economic bureaucrats in the country called you out for misleading voters on the subject? PM: Well with respect, I'd draw your attention to what was actually contained within that statement. And furthermore, if I could add to that by saying that in the press conference on that particular day, I specifically and directly challenged Mr Abbott to tell us where we were wrong in any of the tables that we circulated that day. That was my challenge to him directly on the record on that day. Mr Abbott's tactics since then SALES: But you and two Ministers - sorry, if we can just stay on statement. You and two Ministers released apparent costings of Opposition policies by the Treasury and then the heads of Treasury and Finance released a statement saying they had not costed Opposition policies, clearly because they felt Labor was using their departments inappropriately. How has that not put a big hole in your credibility on this subject? PM: Well the bottom line is, Leigh, I'd draw your attention to what the Treasurer said that day about the fact that different assumptions underpinning policies resulted in different conclusions. He said that explicitly. And furthermore, on the record, what I said about the tables we'd circulated that day was that, Mr Abbott, please come and tell us where any of these calculations are wrong. And that was a very explicit challenge to him. He failed to do so. And here we are, he's been leader of the Liberal Party for, what?, four years now; we've had a five-week election campaign; virtually 24 hours before the polls open and the entire nation is effectively in the dark where his comprehensive list of cuts to jobs, health and education will fall. And just on the latter point, Leigh, we've had this extraordinary twist today where Mr Abbott said, Look, health and education are off the agenda, but, then again, when asked directly what his Commission of Audit, post-election, if he wins, would do, he said, Everything's on the table. Every portfolio. I've just got to say they make this up as they go along because their objective is: once you get to polling day for the entire country to be in the dark about where these cuts will hit them, their jobs and, frankly, if they're big enough, hit the overall health of the economy and risk the reality of a recession. SALES: From the moment the election was called, you've based a large part of your campaign against the Coalition on their alleged economic black hole and fears of massive spending cuts. You've repeatedly cited a $70 billion figure for which there's no evidence, you've produced apparent costings by Treasury that Treasury

distanced itself from. We've seen the document today that over the forward estimates does not have any evidence of cuts to health and education. You've been caught out over-reaching, haven't you? PM: Well can I just go to one point you've just made and that goes to cuts to education. We have a Better Schools Plan to invest in our schools on a needs-based funding formula right through to 2019. We are committing $10 billion towards that. Mr Abbott is barely committing $2 billion to that. And that is in effect an $8 billion cut. We talk about education. In his list today in terms of the education expenses faced by parents across the country, he explicitly owns up to the fact that he is giving a $4.5 billion cut to the Schoolkids Bonus to help parents, 1.3 million of them, buy uniforms and books through that cheque which arrives twice a year. So on the question of education cuts, that's just wrong. SALES: But Prime Minister, you've not addressed my point. You've over-reached. You've not addressed my point. PM: No, that's just wrong. The point. No, the point is you said no cuts to education in the list that he's produced. I produced for you two examples where that is simply not the case. $8 billion in funding for schools SALES: But you're claiming there are further secret cuts you're claiming there are further secret cuts to education out there for which you have no evidence. PM: Oh but, Leigh, it is very plain for the public record what Mr Abbott has said. He has said that he would provide funding for an initial set of years only for the Better Schools Plan. The Better Schools Plan, which is massive for all the people watching your program, increases in their school budgets over time so kids get more one-onone attention. That goes out for a period through until 2019 and that's the basis upon which the Catholic system signed up, the basis on which the independent school system signed up, the basis on which a whole bunch of other state jurisdictions have signed up. And what he has done is not promise $10 billion or commit to that as we have; he's committed $2 billion. That's an $8 billion gap in education. That's a fact, that's not an assertion. SALES: But the reality is that anything outside the forward estimates is basically pie in the sky. There's no way for you to be held accountable to it, there's no way of testing whether that would actually ever happen or not. PM: Ah Leigh, that's wrong again. We've signed an intergovernmental agreement with a number of States in the country which go well beyond the forward estimates in a whole range of different areas, and the same with this one as well. Same with the Catholics and same with the Independent schools. So you cannot simply say we're just going to give you $2 billion worth and kiss the rest goodbye. And on the other

education example I've just given you, a whole bunch of folks watching this program tonight are under cost of living pressures. They appreciate a cheque twice a year which gives them $1,200 or thereabouts, if they've got a kid in primary school or high school and over the course of their education some $15,000 to help with books and to help with uniforms and education expenses. That's a cut to education. SALES: Prime Minister, critics have claimed that your campaign has at times looked like fly by the seat of the pants. One of the policies that you've announced in recent weeks is a move to relocate Australia's main east coast naval base from Garden Island in Sydney to Brisbane. When was that policy devised? PM: Well the first thing you should look at, Leigh, in terms of this policy was the report delivered by the Defence Force Structure Review back in 2012. SALES: I have looked at that. It was over-ridden by the 2013 Defence white paper. PM: The Defence white paper indicated they would not commit to it at this time, and furthermore, as to the specific process which goes to the policy position we've put there on Fleet Base East, that went to Cabinet by the way, prior to the caretaker period commencing. So the assumptions underpinning the criticism on this are frankly ill-founded. Then you go to the strategic reasons for Fleet Base East moving: number one, we're getting massive new ships into the Australian Navy. They can't all be accommodated at Garden Island. Number two, all of our Defence scenarios in the future point to the north-east, the north and the north-west, and therefore, based on earlier advice from the Defence Force Structure Review, it is right to in fact go in there and look at how we now do, through a naval taskforce force, possible basing options for Brisbane, for Townsville, for Cairns, for Darwin, for Perth for these elements. That's the logic of it. It's been considered through the processes I've just outlined. The criticism is unfounded. SALES: All the points you raise though, the Defence white paper did address. They found that Garden Island is extremely useful and needs to remain, that you could use Brisbane as a supplement, but that it rejected moving everything to Brisbane because of a range of factors including cost, land acquisition, environmental factors, strategic and tactical factors such as Sydney has a deep harbour with access straight to the Pacific Ocean. Given that the Defence white paper is meant to form the basis for the Government's Defence policy, can you see how overriding that looks like something you've done not because of the best interests of the nation's security, but in order to win votes in Brisbane marginal seats? PM: That's completely wrong because the document which examines the future disposition of our force structure is the Defence Force Structure Review of 2012. And on the second point, Leigh, there's a factual error in what you've just said. We have not said that every element of Fleet Base East would move from Garden Island

north. What we've said is that a naval taskforce will recommend what elements remain and what goes north, whether it be to Brisbane, or whether it's to Townsville, whether it's to Cairns, Darwin or even west to HMAS Stirling. You see, what I find interesting in this whole debate, Leigh, is that on Defence and planning for the future, which is what the business of national leadership is about, not just looking at the next 24 hours. When Kim Beazley suggested a decade or two ago that we should have a Fleet Base West, HMAS Stirling, there was a hullabaloo that this could never, ever be done. It's the smartest thing that was done because we have so many Defence contingencies to our west, our north and our north-east and that's why this is the right thing to do, but through the advice of a naval taskforce which the policy document released the other day places our faith and confidence in. SALES: Prime Minister, on another policy area, the Northern Australia economic zone plan proposes simplifying foreign investment, but then in a TV forum you said that you wanted to tighten up foreign investment rules. You've said you wanted to build the economy of the future, but then you've announced old-fashioned protectionism of the car industry. Can you see how those contradictions give rise to a perception that you are making up policy on the run? PM: No, that's just a lot of conservative commentariat pointing in that direction when in fact what we are doing as a Government, based on consultation with the Cabinet and the leadership group of our Government, pointing out future policy directions which are necessary for Australia for the long-term. For example, some have criticised the heretical proposition that the Deputy Prime Minister should consider reserving a corridor for a future VFT link, and that's based on a detailed report done by an expert committee which reported to him in July-August this year. Number two, we've already talked about the move of Fleet Base East and the basis on which that occurred. And three, the expansion of the Ord, right up there in the north, we've done that because we've already invested in Stage Two of the Ord and want to prepare for Stage Three. And for the Northern Territory, my argument's pretty simple: Darwin is isolated. Darwin needs some help. It's a Territory, it's not a State, and therefore it's an important way in which you can attract foreign investment into the Territory, attract further domestic investment into the Territory because we want a strong Northern Territory which one day can become a State. I make no apology for making long-term strategic decisions, recommendations, announcements on policy directions. Other than that, Leigh, we're into day to day, day by day, week by week retail political management and I'm not about that. The NBN wasn't about that either. Long-term plan which will produce great benefits for all Australians. SALES: Prime Minister, we in 48 hours the polls will be closed. All the polls at this stage show that Labor is going to lose the election. You've gone backwards in the campaign. Is your strategy at this stage simply to save as many seats as you can? PM: Leigh, my responsibility as leader of the Labor Party and as Prime Minister of

the country is to explain very plainly what we stand for in building Australia's future and also campaigning on the strength of our economic record. We've had six years of sustained economic growth. We have unemployment at one of the lowest levels of the advanced economies in the world. We have interest rates at 60-year record lows. These are fundamental economic achievements which form the basis of our request to the Australian Government a request by the Australian Government to the people for support at this upcoming election. And the alternative SALES: But it doesn't look like they're going to deliver that, Prime Minister. PM: Well Leigh, I think people may be scratching their heads a bit during the course of Saturday because the Australian people in my judgment move to these conclusions as you get to the eve of election day itself and it's for them to decide and I'm very relaxed in their judgment. But at the end of the day, an election is about alternatives. I've just explained what we're doing on the economy and how we are doing it and how we're diversifying the economy, and the alternative is Mr Abbott and Mr Abbott, I argue, if people out there watching your program have doubts about whether he can be trusted to manage a $1.5 trillion economy and not cut their jobs and not cut their schools and not cut their hospitals and not cut their NBN, then, if they are the doubts they have, then I simply say one thing to them: they shouldn't vote for him. SALES: Prime Minister, people see how things are going and Australians like plain talk, so let me just ask very plainly: if you lose this election, is your political career over? PM: Well what I've said earlier today and elsewhere is that my intention is to continue as the Member for Griffith and my intention is to continue as the Member for Griffith as the Prime Minister of Australia. This is a contest between two sets of ideas, between two sets of plans for building Australia's future. Ours is a positive plan. Our opponents only seem to talk about cuts, cuts and more cuts, and therefore the choice is theirs. What happens beyond that, I'm very relaxed about what the Australian people decide, but if you expect me to engage in hypothetical land now, Leigh, I just won't do it. That's not my responsibility. SALES: Well let me ask you about something that I think a lot of Labor supporters would want to know which is that if you do lose the election, you say you'd like to continue as the Member for Griffith, don't you owe it to the Australian Labor Party to allow them to draw a clean line under the Rudd-Gillard era and move to something new? PM: My job, Leigh, is to put the best case to the people of Australia listening to your program tonight about the policies on offer in this election. We began with a discussion about what we have done by way of adhering to the Charter of Budget

Honesty and we had some discussion about the fact that with 24 hours to go, Mr Abbott has not adhered to the Charter of Budget Honesty. SALES: Do you think that Australians PM: And therefore everyone's in the dark. SALES: Do you think that Australians would believe that you haven't given a second thought to losing? PM: Can I just say, Leigh, the job of it's not for me to tell you what your job is, you're a journalist, you'll ask whatever question you like. But understand what my job is, which is to explain to people what the differences are, what we stand for, what our record is and what we understand Mr Abbott's plans to be based on the little information that we have. And how the Australian people then respond to that is a matter for them. And as I've said before, I'm very confident in their judgment, because ultimately they see through all of this, they work out whether you're fair dinkum or not and they work out whether they in fact could trust Mr Abbott to handle the economy, handle the Syria questions you discussed with him the other night, where he didn't seem to know the difference between Arthur or Martha in the Syrian National Coalition, whether he can handle the responsibilities on the UN Security Council, whether he could represent Australia at the G20 and not slash and burn our schools and hospitals and our NBN on the way through. So, my argument is, as Prime Minister my job is to put that case. How your viewers respond to it is a matter for them. SALES: Sorry. Sorry. On that point of wanting to make your case, when Mr Abbott came on the program on Monday night, you would have seen him at the end of the interview, after I thanked him for coming on, he snuck in a 15-second plug as to why people should vote for the Liberal Party. PM: Oh, well. Well, good on him, good on him. SALES: So in the interests of balance, you've got a 15-second free kick. Go. PM: Well thanks very much. Look, our plans are to build the economy of the future by diversifying and not having all our eggs in one basket and we are proposing that through a new tax package for small business and by new industry participation and innovation plans right across the country in the new industries of the future. And if you want broadband in the future, we need your support because Mr Abbott's going to cut it. If you want further funding for your schools in the future through the Better Schools Plan, you need to support us because Mr Abbott's going to cut it.

SALES: I think your 15 seconds is up. PM: And finally, if you want hospitals of the future which are properly funded and a clean-energy future, you'd better support us because he's going to cut them too. If you've got any doubts, don't vote for him. SALES: Prime Minister, like Mr Abbott you agreed to two interviews during the campaign and you've delivered both. Knowing how busy you are, thank you very much for that. Thank you for speaking to our audience. PM: Thanks for having me on the program, Leigh. ENDS