THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

Internal Transcript November 15, 2001

INTERVIEW OF THE VICE PRESIDENT

BY BBC
11:06 A.M. EST
Q A look at the current situation in Kabul. You
helped the Northern Alliance to defeat the Taliban in the
north of Afghanistan. You asked them clearly not to enter
Kabul, but they did. And now, it seems that they're setting
a de facto government. How sure are you that the Northern
Alliance are committed to the idea of a broad-based
government in Afghanistan?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the important thing
to remember here is, obviously, we do not -- these are not
American forces, not U.S. forces, these are Afghans who have
been involved for a long time in a very difficult struggle
there. And the situation is such that we've been willing to
work with them and to do everything we could to support them
against the Taliban.
We have urged them to support a broad-based government
and we hope that, in fact, will be the case. We think it's
very important for those of us involved in the coalition to
support the notion that the ultimate government that emerges
here has to be one that clearly has the support of the
Afghan people and that is broadly representative of the
Afghan people. I can't predict with certainty how that will
sort out, but to date I think as a general proposition, we
believe the Northern Alliance has conducted themselves in a
responsible fashion under the extraordinary circumstances
that do exist.
Q They've announced several key ministries: The
Defense Ministry; they appointed a defense minister, they
appointed the foreign minister. Don't you think that will
complicate the whole idea of broad-based government?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it's not surprising at
this point that you would have those folks who have recently
fought a number of difficult battles and emerged victorious
over the Taliban to want to put something in its place; I
don't find that surprising.

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 I do think it's important for everyone involved to
understand that the United States and our other coalition
partners in the effort, especially the U.K., for example,
that we will work with the United Nations and other
international organizations to try to establish a secure,
stable representative government, long-term.
Our interest is not in telling the Afghan people how
they should govern themselves; those are decisions they'll
have to make themselves. But I think the rest of the world
does have an interest in seeing to it that we don't have the
kind of situation emerge again that arose under the Taliban.
That is to say that Afghanistan becomes a home for
terrorists or a sanctuary where terrorist organizations can
operate from.
Q Yes. And also, I don't think the Afghans would
like the situation which was 10 years ago when all these
Mujahedeen came to Kabul and each commander was controlling
one side. If that happened again -- I mean, we understand
that only one faction has entered Kabul, and there are news
that the other groups -- the Hizaras (phonetic) on their
way. If that happened, if they started fighting for
ministries, for control -- and let me tell you that there
are some reports of summary executions in Afghanistan right
now and revenge killings -- how will you sort out that mess?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think — I guess I'd back off
from that at this point, from your sort of assumption there.
We cannot solve all of the problems in Afghanistan
overnight. We think, I think, have significantly improved
the situation by our efforts to force the Taliban out of
power.
What you had in Afghanistan before the onset of our
military operations a few weeks ago was a regime that was a
very bloody regime, a regime that had become dictatorial and
in terms of how it conducted itself, that had created
enormous pain and problems for the vast majority, I think,
of the Afghan people. Certainly had seriously mistreated
and abused women in terms of the way they had been forced to
live during the course of this campaign. A regime that had,
in fact, contributed significantly to the terrible
circumstances and living conditions the Afghan people find
themselves in today -- while at the same time, while at the
same time making it possible for al Qaeda and Osama bin
Laden to launch terrorist attacks against the outside world.
Now, the situation is not perfect today, but it is
certainly much better than it was when the Taliban were in
power. The Taliban are, for the most part, gone from about
80 or 90 percent of the country and the international
community is committed to working as aggressively as we can

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to help with humanitarian relief and to try to help find a
political settlement here that will enable the establishment
of a long-term, stable, representative government.
Now, are there going to be problems along the way?
Certainly. Have people been killed in this conflict? Yes,
they have. That's the unfortunate part of war. But when
that happens, I guess I would make the same point that our
Defense Secretary made the other day, that when all is
considered and done, this transition of power in Afghanistan
probably has been accompanied by less loss of life than any
other in modern history.
Is it perfect? No, but we'll do our level best to see
to it that what we get through here is as peaceful a
transition as possible in the establishment of a good,
solid, representative government that will look after the
interests of the Afghan people.
Q Britain is into -- to send troops, peacekeeping
troops to Afghanistan. Will those efforts will be matched
by America?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We already have a significant
number of American forces in the region; some on the ground
in Afghanistan. What will be required, going forward, is as
yet undetermined. But certainly, the United States is
committed to working with our friends in the U.K., and other
countries that have expressed an interest in seeing to it
that, in fact, we do establish a good -- perhaps an interim
arrangement or interim government ultimately leading to a
representative government, and the United States is prepared
to do whatever we have to do to achieve those objectives.
Q Well, that includes sending..1, 000 American troops
as Britain is indicating?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You're asking for specific
commitments on specific operational details, on a
hypothetical basis and speculative questions, and I can't
answer those questions.
Q But Britain is giving away this information.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: The United States has already done
more than any other nation to try to improve the situation
in Afghanistan. We are the leading donor of humanitarian
assistance; we were before the tragic events of September
llth and the subsequent conflict in Afghanistan, and we are
yet today. We've provided well over a million rations in
the last few days to the people of Afghanistan. We have
liberated them from the terrible yoke of oppression of the
Taliban. And we will continue to be actively and

OOOOS4
aggressively involved in helping the Afghan people reclaim
their country and establish a government that they are
comfortable with.
Q That's right. Can I ask you something right here?
Many people in Afghanistan feel quite cynical about the way
that they've been used by the outside powers and the powers.
And as you remember, the Mujahedeen were used to fight the
Soviets; later, the Taliban were created partly with the
help of CIA, and now you seem to be using the Northern
Alliance. And how can the Afghan people trust America?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think they will get far
better treatment at the hands of the United States than
virtually anybody else that they've been dealing with in
recent years. I think if you go into the streets, from
everything I can see in the streets of Kabul and Mazar-e
Sharif and the other major cities around Afghanistan today,
the people of Afghanistan are thankful and delighted to be
liberated from the yoke of oppression of the Taliban, and
that happened as a direct result of the policies of
President Bush and the United States of America and the
operations of our military forces.
Q But there is also a sense of not knowing what will
happen next. And also, can you guarantee that once your
objectives are achieved, you won't abandon the country once
again?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We've made it clear that we have
no interest in abandoning the country. We want to be
actively involved with the Afghan people in creating an
environment, say, that is healthy for them and lets them
live life to their maximum potential, and also at the same
time ensures that Afghanistan never again becomes a base for
the conduct of terrorist operations against the outside
world.
Q A lot of Afghans are angry about America's
newfound friendship with Pakistan. Pakistan has always been
seen as a country which has interfered in Afghanistan in the
last 22 years, backing various factions at different times.
What assurance can you give about Pakistan's role in the
future?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You keep asking for assurances of
this and assurances of that. I will simply come back and
say that Afghanistan and the people of Afghanistan are in a
much better position today than they were a few months ago
when they were ruled by the Taliban. It's not surprising
that the neighboring states, whether we're talking about
Pakistan or we talk about Uzbekistan, Tajikistan,
Turkmenistan, Iran, a lot of countries that are neighboring

000085
states to Afghanistan have an interest in what happens
inside Afghanistan; and that's not surprising. I think it's
been true for centuries. Our effort will be to try to lead
an international coalition to work through the appropriate
international agencies, such as the United Nations, to allow
the Afghan people to make decisions for themselves about
what kind of government they want, and to be able to live
their lives in the future free of some of the pain and
suffering that's been visited on them in the past.
Q Do you think that the war against Taliban is over?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I wouldn't say it's over yet. I
think it's clearly been a very successful campaign up to
this point, but there are still parts of the country today
that are under Taliban rule. Most of the cities obviously
have been liberated. Much of the country now is free of
Taliban rule. But there still pockets of resistance. There
still are foreign invaders, if you will, in Afghanistan.
Some of the outsiders, especially some of the Arabs who came
in with Osama bin Laden, and who were invited in by the
Taliban and who are still resisting, if you will. So I
can't say that the conflict has ended yet.
It's also important to remember from the standpoint of
the United States, we have an abiding interest in finding
Osama bin Laden and the leaders of al Qaeda, the foreigners
the Taliban invited into Afghanistan, and in fact, the
reason all of this recent grief has been visited on
Afghanistan is because of their presence.
We want to round them up, we want to bring them to
justice. There are significant financial rewards that have
been offered by the United States for information leading to
the capture of these individuals, and we'll continue to be
very active there in order to stamp out the al Qaeda
terrorist network and its leadership.
Q Do you think that you will ever find bin Laden
himself?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I do.

Q If the Taliban were to take to hills and fight a

guerrilla campaign, what military strategy would the U.S.
pursue? I mean, I understand that Afghanistan is not an
easy place.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm well aware of that. I

think the questions would be whether or not they would have
any outside support. In the past, of course, they have had
outside support from various sources in terms of financing,

000086
 in terms of arms, in terms of training. Osama bin Laden has
— . been one of the major sources of support for the Taliban.
^ i
In effect, you had something of a state-supported --
terrorist-supported state, if you will. To the extent that
we can wipe out that terrorist base, I think that will
weaken their capabilities, and I don't think anybody in the
outside world in the future will have any interest in
supporting the Taliban or providing them with additional
military capability. So I would think over time, once a
strong government is established and local control is
established as well in the various key provinces around
Afghanistan, that the Taliban will not be much of a factor.
Q But if it is seen as a foreign intervention in
Afghanistan, and if some of the people in Pakistan religious
schools support him to give him that kind of protection,
what would you do then?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: If they give who protection --
Osama bin Laden?
Q Bin Laden and also Taliban and the al Qaeda.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think after the experience the
Taliban has had -- remember what happened here; after they
x--v had provided sanctuary for Osama bin Laden while he attacked
v J U.S. embassies and killed hundreds of people in East Africa
—-- and attacked our ship in Yemen, and then New York City and
Washington, B.C., they, in effect, have -- were asked to
turn over bin Laden and refused to do so.
President Bush made the point that if you are a
government that provides sanctuary to terrorists, you have
to accept guilt and responsibility for their actions, just
as do the terrorists. The Taliban refused to turn him over
and they've suffered the consequences. I think it will be
difficult to find anybody else around the world who will
have an interest in providing sanctuary to Osama bin Laden
and his kind.
Q Many people, both inside and outside Afghanistan,
were horrified by reports of civilian casualties caused by
American bombs despite your claims of accuracy. And we have
reports today of more bombing in Afghanistan. What lessons
have you learned about avoiding the loss of innocent lives?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We do everything we can to avoid
the loss of innocent life or collateral damage. In a war,
unfortunately it's not possible to be absolutely certain
that you always avoid hurting the innocent, but we've done a
better job than anybody in history in terms of our conduct
\f military operations.

000087
 The precision of our attack, the care with which we
apply military force are, I think, were there for anyone who
wanted to see it. There were a lot of reports, for example,
of the people of Kabul watching our military operations from
the rooftops because they were confident of the precision
with which we used our military assets.
Any loss of life, of innocent life, is to be regretted,
and certainly we're sorry if that happened. But remember
how this started. It started with nearly 5,000 innocent
people -- men, women and children, most of them Americans,
but many of them from other nations as well, including a
large number of Muslims -- being murdered on September llth
in the attack on the World Trade Center and on the Pentagon
here in Washington, D.C.
The key to avoiding that kind of thing happening in the
future is to eliminate the people who did it, and that's
Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network and the leadership
of the Taliban that provided them with sanctuary.
So in the long run, I think there will be far less loss
of life in the world as a result of our taking this military
action. And that's why we feel it's justified and why we
did what we had to do.
Q You always say that the war on terrorism was much
wider than just Afghanistan. What is the next stage?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, there are a great many
places around the world where there are cells of the al
Qaeda organization; maybe as many as 40 or 50 countries.
And we're working now with the services of other countries
and other governments to try to wrap those organizations up,
and we'll continue to work to dry up their financial assets
and resources where it's appropriate. We'll be prepared to
use military action should that be required in order to
close down these operations.
But what we are specifically interested in and the
President has defined is the war on terrorism. And,
unfortunately, it's become all too frequent an occurrence.
And the United States, I think, and the rest of the world
now have made it very clear that we will no longer tolerate
that kind of activity, nor will we tolerate governments who
provide sanctuary for terrorists. And I'm sure the campaign
ahead will be a long one, but in the end it will be
successful.
Q Thank you very much. I think that's all of 20
minutes. Thank you very much for the interview.

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THE VICE PRESIDENT: You bet. Thank you.
END

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