Interview

With Steven Ling Isabella FitzGerald Harewood Interview with Middletown resident When I first met Pastor Steven Ling, I shyly forced my way into the Middletown Trinity Churchs back offices and walked in on a group of elderly women and him sitting around a table chatting. I asked for an interview, which he seemed very willing to give. The women around the table supported my request saying that he had so many great things to say. When I told him that I would be asking him about the most significant movie in his life, he tilted his head back and thought about it for a bit. The women shouted out a few suggestions, ones I assumed were favorites of theirs. Finally he said confidently, Guess Whos Coming to Dinner. The 1960s one. The original, not the remake. Did they make a remake? The women around the table shrugged. Have you seen it? I hadnt but I promised to watch before we met again. Come again at 11:30 next week, if the interview cuts into Thursdays service its alright. The entire congregation is already in this room and Im sure they wont mind to much. They all laughed and I said Id see him the same time next week. But when I arrived at the churchs back entrance he wasnt there and I spent, admittedly, a very enjoyable afternoon eating ice cream with the elderly ladies waiting for the Pastor who never showed up. He called me later in the evening to apologize because he honestly had completely forgot. He was so sincere. He even offered to drive and meet me the following day at the church even though usually he spends his Fridays at the Trinity Church in Portland. I told him I didnt want to be too much of an inconvenience but he said, Im the one who made the promise and I am the one who made the mistake. I am sorry to be the one to inconvenience you. Its not an inconvenience to me. So, when I finally did sit down with him for the interview the following day he took me to the small mailroom as an impromptu office. Here take the comfy chair, he said. He proceeded to sit down in the adjacent chair that, I do admit, looked a lot less comfortable. He is a heavier set man. He was dressed in a priests clothings and was wearing very small glasses that perched on his cheeks. Before we began the interview the sprinkler outside violently hit the glass window in the room making it feel as though we were in some violent thunderstorm. It shocked me a little, but he hardly seemed to notice. He was ready to talk. It seemed as if the sprinkler was apart of the room to him, apart of the whole church maybe, it didnt even faze him. He gave me an encouraging smile. He was ready to talk. I: Can you tell me you name, title and what you do here in Middletown. S: Sure. My name is Steven Ling, L-I-N-G, and the priest in the Episcopal Church. I currently serve as rector for trinity episcopal church in Portland, and I do live here in Middletown. I: Where are you from originally?

S: I am originally from Michigan. I did a stop in Boston and then came to Connecticut in 1980 and then left Connecticut and went to Pennsylvania for twelve years and then came back to Connecticut. I: Why did you decide to come back and stay here. S: I came back primarily to do three years at the Yale divinity school, and attached to that is the Berkley Divinity School which is one of the episcopal seminaries and I did my education to prepare as priest in 2004 through 2007 and then I was ordained in the fall of 2007 as a priest and then have served Middletown and Portland since then. I: Can you tell me about your life growing up and what influenced you specifically to become a priest. S: Oh that one I dont think you have enough space on your machine to take this and to get it down really. I can give you the abbreviated one sort of. In the Old Testament there is the book of Jonah and Jonah gets, of course every one knows, swallowed by this big fish, whether its a whale or whatever it is, the bible doesnt get into a lot of heavy detail in terms of the exact species were dealing with. But anyway what you dont always read into the story is how that becomes possible and how that takes place and you have in it a story of Jonah trying to move away and avoid the call from God to do something in this or that or whatever. That probably is a really good Segway into my life. I spent a good portion of my life ignoring God, getting caught up in the success of two other careers and finally what we call within the church the still small voice of God became the nagging voice and I was finally put in a position where I had to listen to it and I did listen to it and couldnt ignore it. It was at that point that I started making some decisions that would allow me to do something new and something different and it led to a trip back to Connecticut, it led me to Yale, it led me to Berkley, it led me then to Middletown in terms of working, its led me in a number of directions, across the river into Portland, all kinds of stuff. I: What were the two other careers that you had prior? S: I spent five years right out of undergraduate school teaching history and government and really enjoyed it and liked it. Then I had the opportunity to be at the right place at the right time with the right person and I had literally found myself spending all my free time in museums and I finally asked myself, well, why arent you working in one. And so I got an incredible opportunity to do something that most people dont get to do in terms of having a door open at a particular time in a particular way and was able to enter a new profession basically with the help of some person who saw something in me that they were interested in and they thought that I could do a good job. Then I spent 26 years doing that in different places. It was a fabulous career, interesting career, exciting career in terms of protecting heritage and caring for artifacts and objects and talking about and

interpreting and explaining the importance of some of these artifacts and objects, and it was a great career. I: Why do you think you were so drawn to museums? S: Well I had been introduced to museums very early in my life as child, so they were a very comfortable place for me, and I have a real sincere and strong interest in history and generally speaking museums are one of the key places, not the only place but a key place, that you go to in terms of dealing some types of historical stuff. Thats where its kept. I: Can you give me an instance of when you were younger when you went to a museum and it had a significant impact on you? S: Oh yeah. I can tell you most turning moment of my life. I was ten years old. It was 1962, 11 years old I guess because I was born in 51. But it was summer of 1962, my first visit to the Smithsonian and my first visit, which was the most important part of that same trip I did the Smithsonian, Gettysburg, and Colonial Williamsburg in two and a half weeks. The most important part of that was Colonial Williamsburg. I met one of the tour guides there, a costumed tour guide who literally turned me on to the whole issue of what it means to explain stuff to people about history and I had done a little reading before I got there so I could answer some of the questions he was asking the group. That got him excited and he ended up doing a small shorter private tour with us as a family unit but because of my interest and thats where it all started. Exactly where it all started and when it all started I: What would you consider your most important values? S: The honest answer to that truly would be that it depends on what time of my life that youre talking about. I sill place an extremely high value on education. Its something I stress with my students and I stressed with my children and with all kinds of people. Education for sake of education not just necessarily education as preparation for a career or education that pigeonholes you into some preparation for some particular job. I place an incredible value on honesty and I have my whole life with that. In terms of something I demand of myself and something that I expect from people around me. Then obviously as I have gotten into this later, well hopefully its not later its latest, phase of my life, obviously when youre a priest there is a certain religious connection youre expected to make. You are expected to emulate and explain and be a good example of this and that. As my life has progressed there are probably some changes there. Although, today I feel as strongly about education as I did in the early 70s. I definitely feel strong in terms of honesty. I have always been a religious and church person but obviously thats changed and theres a slightly different focus when youre the leader and not just a laid person participating. Im not sure if that answers youre question or not but thats sort of how I feel with some of that. And I am not sure theres one thing that I

could boil that down to. I do think it would three or four different things that have had numerous effects. I: Is there anything that you have completely changed your mind about over the years as far as values? S: My kids would tell you no: because Im always right, and have always been right and continue to always be right. So that, while I dont completely buy into that answer, that is the answer, and my kids are in their 40s so they have had a long time to think about that and to joke about that. But, you know, I am not sure that there has been a big switch. There are some major issues that I struggled with early in life but I struggled with in enough detail that I feel pretty comfortable in terms of where I am. I think the biggest struggle in that particular line that I have right now is that I find myself from time to time questioning more when life begins, which then opens the door wide open for some discussion about abortion or euthanasia or something there. It used to be very cut and dry for me. Some of that because I think it was very easy for me to be very liberal and to find good scholarship where there were religious people who saw the problem where I saw it in terms of that definition. More recently I have gotten a little more concerned about when do we attach value to life or when is life really beginning such that there becomes a moral problem or a moral question in terms of whether youre being involved terminating life. I dont think there has been a major change yet in terms of where I am but theres a major concern thats probably a little more focused and a little more concern that what there used to be. When it used to be much easier to be cut and dry and it was black and white and now I have numerous shades of grey and charcoal that seem to creep in. I: What made you consider that topic more? S: Well, one is that my wife and I both have a disagreement about it. She is a health care professional and she sees it much differently than I see it in her own personal mind. Now, Im also forced to look at it in terms of representative of the church and while the episcopal church is still very close to where I am personally when youre representing Christ and when your representing the church then its an awesome responsibility in terms of what you open your mouth and say to people. And how they take it and how they use it. It changes things very dramatically. It used to be it didnt matter. I mean, nobody is going to hear me anyway, maybe some of my students, but its not a big deal. But unfortunately when you put on a collar it becomes a big deal in terms of whats perceived, and what is the importance of what you say, and how you do represent Jesus Christ. Its sort of difficult. It used to be very simple and now its not nearly as simple. Same issue and obviously some of its personal. You can see the grey hair starting. Some of it is really there with end of life issues and what responsibility do we have to the teachings of the church and to our Christian beliefs and what responsibility do we have to ourselves in terms of making potentially end of life decisions in cases where the life is truly not going to be sustained and should we be a player in that or is that truly Gods responsibility and

not ours and our hands should be off, completely. These are issues that I struggle with from time to time. I try not to dwell on them they certainly do not consume my whole thinking and my whole life but as I said at the beginning, when I was much younger and before I came to service to the church it was really easy and it was really simple and now its unfortunately gotten much more complicated. I: Can you tell me of a specific instance when it as difficult? S: One of the ones, in some ways it wasnt difficult and in other cases it was very difficult. There was a young lady the summer of 2005. I was doing a chapel in city rotation at Hartford hospital and she was seriously injured in a car accident. She was a graduating senior. It had just happened before graduation and her parents, especially her mother, was in denial and was standing there in the emergency room, I was there, a couple of other family members, talking about gee we might have to reschedule next weeks graduation party that had already been planned and announced and everything. What mom wasnt seeing was that she was unconscious; she was not ever going to regain consciousness. She was basically brain dead. We then over the next week and a half had to struggle with making an end of life decision for that girl. And did. She was indeed taken off of life support and she did eventually die within a certain number of hours there after and in some ways it was very disturbing because you knew what was best for her physically because all of the scans clearly showed that there was no activity, no brain activity and that the chances of her being able to recover anything and the chances of her being able to do anything with her life were basically non existent. On the other hand, you still get caught up in the reality of how technology has changed so quickly in the last few years. You find yourself saying, what if? What if I give them a little bit of time to come up with something? Or God forbid what if there is a miracle? I have not been fortunate enough to see the bolt of lightening come out of the sky and zap somebody or the flash of light that the apostle Paul got that caused his temporary blindness. I have not watched someone feed five thousand with two loaves and five fishes. But that doesnt mean that I dont believe that those things did and can happen. The problem is, other than resurrection, when you pull the plug and someone dies. You pull the plug and you dont get s second chance for a do over. So, that was a struggle in itself in its own terms of saying, are we really doing the right thing? And part of me said yes, absolutely. There is no discussion, no need for discussion. This is the only thing we can do. And yet, you always catch yourself saying, gee what if? It becomes almost a moral quandary in terms of when do we do that. I: How do you feel emotionally when you have to deal with those situations? Or do you feel as if you have to cut yourself off emotionally? S: The answer Id like to give you is I dont think accurate but its truly an answer. I dont think anyone can cut themselves off. I think there are people who talk about how they do it and I think that people who talk a great game about it but in my short experience and fairly intense at time experience, I dont see how you do that. I think it would be great if you could do that, but Im not able to. I try not to dwell on it and I

try not to let it consume me but I think there is some attachment there that even though you dont want it I think it happens and you simply move forward. I think you can work to minimize it. I think its nice in some institutions, some hospitals have it fairly cut and dry in terms of having protocols that need to be followed and its almost gotten legislated in some ways. But I think the basic question that you still struggle with, bottom line, is the basic question. And people cant legislate that. And so because of that I dont think you remove yourself completely or can remove yourself completely even though people may try. I simply gave up trying a long time ago. I saw that wasnt going to happen. There are times I try to work to minimize it but Ive already figured out that I dont think I can remove it. I: Im going to switch gears. Im going to talk about the movie that you told me was the most significant, Guess Whos Coming to Dinner. S: One of them. I: Yes, one of them. S: And certainly a memorable one because I pulled it right out immediately when you first asked me. I: I want to know why you would consider it a significant movie. S: Well, Im 62. I grew up watching the March on Washington. I grew watching television and seeing what was happening with the freedom riders. I grew up watching Selma, Alabama and Birmingham. I grew up watching Mississippi and I grew up 90 miles form Detroit. And got to Detroit for numerous kinds of things. I saw some of the racial climate change or evolve over a period of time. At the time, this movie was made this movie was quite transformational and certainly not mainstream. Today the movie is ho-hum. But at the time the movie was made the movie was not ho-hum. I think theres more to the movie than just that layer. For me its a very personal movie. And the personal part of extends until today, literally this minute. We have two, five and a half year old grandsons who are adopted. Theyre black. The issue will someday be, looking around, why is everyone white and were black. Now, we treat them, my wife and I, my daughter and son-in-law, and the vast majority of my family as two boys. And once in a while it may slip into two adopted boys, because you look at them and you absolutely know that its impossible that they were not adopted. It cannot scientifically work. But there has never been within our family group, and we got these boys right at the hospital right after birth, I mean we are the only real home that theyve known and we are the only family really that theyve significantly or seriously interacted with. We are mom and dad and grandma and grandpa. And yet, at some point were all going to have to come to grips with the fact with gee guess whos coming to dinner. In its own way. Not exactly in the same way as the movie but in its own way. Thats today, forty years later. Thats not the issue of the movie but in some ways it is still the issue of the movie because there are people still who are concerned over racism and how we

treat other people. There are still people who hold those ideas that get expressed by some of the characters in that movie script. There are liberals who find somehow that they are not nearly as liberal as they thought they were. This movie thats now aged, really isnt aged. Its still pretty contemporary and its still pretty on line even though the shock valued of it isnt there like it used to be, in terms of when it first came out. Oh my god, this black guy is going to be marrying this white girl. You know, that happens all the time. Thats where the shock value ends. But wasnt hasnt been totally resolved is how we as a society really feel about that or how we as individuals react to people who may be family or friends in terms of being caught up in that kind of relationship and situation. And as I say even with my own grandsons there is going to be a time when were going to chat because were going to have to chat, not that grandpa wants to chat but theres going to be a chat in terms of yeah, everybodys white but we cant seem to wash this off and No, I dont want you to wash it off. You know, youre who you are. And we love you for who you are and not because the color of your skin. And I think thats in the movie and it wasnt made to be in the movie. But thats sort of my take in how I view it. I do think it has spectacular performances from and acting point of view. I think its terrific all the way around. I think the naivety of Houghton as the Daughter is just incredible. Sydney Poitier as the Suitor. He is just classic. Hes been out in the real world and knows that there are problems. I just love Spencer Tracy in terms of this curmudgeon old liberals who really fought the fight for a number of years and a number of fights but now that its in his living room, oh my god. And Katherine Hepburn as the mother who wants the best and hopes for the best for her daughter and is willing to put some of the fear on her face aside because she is so convinced that her daughters happiness is so important and will carry the day. You mix all of those four and then on top of it add his parents, and his father who is just over the top in terms of his attitude in a different direction. The mother, who really is more thoughtful and sees the picture much closer than you realize until you get near the end. It really is I think just a terrific piece of film that needs to be shown. I will tell you that when I was teaching I used to show it in my classroom each year. It was one that I would show because I think its terribly important and I think its terribly well done in terms of how it presents whats going on and you get a number of perspectives to look at. I: How did you feel when you first saw the film? S: My honest answer to that was that it was so long ago that I dont remember truly, and that is my honest answer. I will give you my dishonest answer which is I suspect there was enough of a jolt that it stayed with me and enough of a jolt that less than eight years later I was making sure that other people saw the film. It was a film that stayed with me. Im not going to say that some light came on in my mind or something like that but it had enough of an effect that it wasnt that much longer after it came out and I saw it that I was literally using it with students. It was something that I thought was important.

I: Maybe you dont remember this, but when you saw the film when you were younger did you identify with the couple or with the parents and how does that compare to when you think about the film now? S: Well, I think clearly I identified more with the parents and the reason for that is that I had a father who, a very loving man and a very interesting man but also a very confusing man, was not what we would call socially enlightened and yet one of my sisters best friends was black and he had no problem with her or her family. And she would come over for dinner constantly, regularly is a better word, and there would always be a comment about what her dad was doing and an inquiry and we would see her mother a PTA events. It was very confusing if nothing else to hear my father make some comments. It was a situation where it was like they werent black. It became, obviously, a lesson for me later on in terms of there were people he didnt like in terms of people of color that he didnt know but he knew these people so they were ok. And I make no apologies and I make no excuse. A couple of years I gave him a Christmas present and on the tag it said to Archie Bunker. It was pretty obvious. Yet at that same time for him, which is a piece you need to know, is that they were discriminated against. They were passed over for promotions by less qualified people and less educated people simply because the color of skin. I am absolutely certain that had an effect on some of his feelings and some of his thinking. My mother handled much better but in his case I am certain he was responding to both of their experiences. Again I make no excuses and no apologies but thats what happened. For me it was very easy for me to identify with the parents and especially the father because here is this life long democrat whose father, my grandfather, was such a democrat that they still had the party lever on the voting machine. They could have had Pluto, Mickey mouse, Minnie mouse and goofy on the ballot and my grandfather would have never had known because he simply moved into he voting machine, pulled the party lever and who ever was on the ballot for the democratic party was who he voted for. That was it. It was really easy. It took him three to four seconds to vote each year. And my father who grew up in that environment and my father who passed some of those values on to me, although he would have argued that I was scary and argued that I moved beyond him and embraced some of that in a different way. You know, my father was sort of caught in this liberal look and had to come to grips with the fact that gee he wasnt as liberal as he though he was. I mean, my own daughter expected to have the same kind of fun with me, shes lesbian and I asked her a full year before she came out because you could tell by her behavior. I mean, there was zero surprise to me. Her mother and I sat down and we tried to do it nicely and we tried to do it unthreateningly. It was just, gee wed like to know if you are and thats sort of it and its not a big deal and, yeah, we have some concerns because this was a long time ago before they got a handle on what was happening with AIDS and everything else. That was our big concern and not whether she was gay. Our concern was, oh my god, whats happening in the gay community with AIDS. That was a real worry and a real problem. I think she thought she was going to have fun with me in terms of oh my god, your so liberal now youre going to have to come to grips with having a daughter thats gay. I could care less. Well, I cant say I could care less because I dont 100 percent understand it but

what it did reinforce was that I know how she was raised. She didnt wake up one morning and look in the mirror and say, gee I think Ill try being gay today. Its not something that she learned. Its something thats her and that was a help for me but yet she thought she was going to have fun Im sure. Good old liberal dad who nows going to have to go face it. Well she got disappointed. Well thats the connection for me. Its personal in my life and its personal in my grandchildrens in terms of why its one of favorite movies because its not over yet. Im going to have to live it yet. And we are all going to have to live it as a world and certainly as a country yet. But I, personally am going to have to live it with my grandsons. Its coming. I just dont know when. I: When you were younger did you ever expect to be facing such similar issues as those represented in the film? S: I did to a certain extent. Maybe not face them personally as such. But we are talking about a time when the country was being really upended by racial discord and racial violences. It was a big deal. I dont think was any way to get around that.