I

I
13
Rust/'\ Atvts

I say that the goal of our struggle for Justice ard all political struggles ls for the world to be more beautiful. Poverty ls horrid, it's ugly. Povertyis death,death ofchildren, suffering.These are terrible thtngs! They must end! We live for beauty. The poets know this. I propose that tn stead of theolog/ we do "theo-poetics."

Rubem Alues is one oJ Iatin America's best known l>rol(slut His 1969 doctoral dissertation LDo.s ortght. lll theolqkrns. titled A Theolog/ of Liberation, but tte publishers rc trunu\l ll A Theologr of Human Hope. Ru.bem Alues studied at Brazil's PresbAtenan Scnrincrl/ l,l Cafilpinas, then become the minister of a sntrrlJcongregalton ln Ml nas Gerais. He attended UnionTheologtcal SemtnarA in Ncut l'otit Jor advanced shrdies and. uas later inuited. to stLtda al l\ln(\,ltul Theological Semhary in Neus Jerseg, uhere he comptel<tl lrls tkx' toral shldtes. Since 1974, Rubem hos been a proJessor oJ philosoplrrl ttl llu, State UniDersitA of Campinas (UNICAMP), in the Brozillen sl(rl.' trl Sdo Paulo. In 1982, tle publistLed a usidelg acckimed en(l (ttlnt uersial uork, Protestantism and Repression, in uhich lv, (rllkltt.\l ttle increasing conseruatism of Broztl's Protestont churclrr,.s. lr r rr' cent Aears, he has deuoted halJ oJ his time to his psVclrc( ( ttlk' pr(rctice ond to the uritirlg oJ children's books. BeJore ow interubu, Rubem ansistedon taking nE lo ftur( lr (ll a local uegetarian restaurant. Whtle walkig through the uto<xls tt r
Rubem Alves sits in the garden behind his home and work pl:rce.

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The Struggle is OtE

enthl.rsiasnL "Listhe wag borkto his offbe, he saiduxhchild-Lrke llke ttvg're naklt's anwtler! one against rubbing En to [he trees poet-trc is.both' He a and mystic oJ a W toue!' The obseruqtion tte carlr,e oJ "ttec-poetics"----etrcowaging the use o;f "io^ptorrs poew to express ulnt scientifc Imrglrnge cantl,t of btrogottt spifits. He peridlcallA inRubem Alves ls a n:@:n olfer me a glnss of totne or lead me to conuersqtion terrupted ot[ groww on the enonrTot6 cterry-ffiies UE outside to taste jabuticaba tree In his back gard. Ow iuicA feast gaue hlrn the op-porhnitg to nE tlle Lnisdom oJ tfe p@r: "It usas a poor 'peosari to escptnin me hoLDto get the Jabuticaba;frutt olJ oJ the iought uta co:nt(rcked on the end of a broomstickl We o collee tolt limbs-tuittr poor. Theg haue so much to teach us'" on the down look must not bfsre I was bom in a small, rural town in Minas Gerais tn 1933' My father was once a rich man' but he went broke during the depiession, which forced our family to move to the larger urban area of Rto de Janeiro. I sull long for rural life-the countryside, the old houses' You know that crises are the occasion ln which people are converted. Well, this crisis led us to the Protestant church' My father didn't have money to send his chtldren to school, so the Presbyterian missionaries offered us the opportunity. Thls was my beginning in Protestantism. ls fis frs I ffrst wanted to become an engineer. Next, in utter admiration of Albert Schweltzer, t decided I would become a doctor and a musician. I trted to bt'a good pianist, but I didn't have talent' I was Just like Sallcrl ltl lhe movie Amadeus who tried desperateiy to become ('losc lo Mozart. Like him, I just didn't have the grace! -We[, then t really t'ltrrrrg'tl. I was converted under the influence of a revivallst wlvc lllirl ('ittn(' to Brazil during the l95os' I
l{r rln rr Alv.s rx)l only takes great personal dellght ln r,rlllrc Irtrl rrscs the imagery of gardening and lllr. (ir||rlrr {)l l)lradlse' to speat in terms the l l|lr/lll,rr r|lrssr'srrDderstand.

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a. B.razillan version of started seminary fully intending to become mortal dlseasel BtUy Graham' But t was cured of this which at the Then I came to the seminary here in Campinas' timew.strrecenterofcreativethinkingtnthecityandactivewith was Youi own Richard Shaull student anq politicalrnovements' imPortalft Prasence here't a -,{ft.. - very to theologr in the Unites States' I came back aroundt want-me "tr,raving didn't reallv ft'l"nt'rch ; i;d'tr,at B;;;;; work I was doing' Thafs theological of kind the for I *"" philosophy in our State ;;;il;" "ft"itt"a offered a Job as profess;r of ever since' Utti".rsity of Campinas, where IVe been time is spent writing During recent years, much of my . children's books' which I enjoy very mucn' frsfsF

taught me that education is useless! IVe come to believe rn guardian angels! In other words, I don't raise my children. I can only hope that something inexplicable will happen, but it's not my doing. So when patients ask me how to raise children I say, "lrave your children in peace. The only thing you can do is be open and point out when they do something wrong, but always stand beside them." &frsA I don't know if the liberation theologians would consider me a liberation theologian. I don't constder myself one to the degree that I don't operate within Marxist categories. Right now I get my inspiration not from sociologists, poll cians or economists, but from poetry. For me, the classical. the traditional, the canonical, the socio-political mediation-these are heresy! In other words, to speak sociologlcally and polttically, I don't need to be a theologian, but a social scientist. If I need lo senrl my car to the mechanic, I don't need to do theologr for thal, I lr rsl need science, My understanding is that theologr has to do wlth a (ltnl(.n sion of experience that cannot be captured by scientiflc ilnalysrs. However, I don't reject scientific analysis. I believe that theolog/ is facing the abyss. I must face the abyss, the abyss of existence, the abyss ol mystery. There, I'm becoming mystical, you see? I hztvr. lx.r'rr reading the medieval mystics and oriental writers latelv! frs *s fs I believe that the greatest problem facing us today ls lt()t tllr economic problem. The Brazilian people have an inflnltc (.lll)lt| ity to suffer great deprivation cs Lcng as they belteve ihcy rrrr. building something beauuful. But in Brazil, the people have lost hope. With the loss of hope, we are no longer a people but a prrl verized people. Like Augustine says in ?he Cify oJ God, thc 1x'o ple are a gathering of persons united in love with a conltloll vision and dream. Wtthout this drearn and vision, we are p lvnr ized into flerce individualism, everyone defendlng lhelr own l rl,

rszs Sie was rbm fourteen vears after the d";;i;il;";iin but ;Jiltk" Abraham! when I was young-l had.strength ;th.?; more no but wisdom' Later I had patience and ioip"U"""". strenAth. "*'v'"!,'n"qrr"t's in that it embirth was a purirying experience becomes rest and..the "this is important"' to oo*".J ".y, llle' my -" birth relntegrated things in Llurred. Her -"h" -*;;; b-om I iuddenlv discovered .n"" ;;;;11, " ' would not spend another moment of my life tfr.t-"U"oirt"fy-l writinq academically' is -'-ffi.;k;;ah GJ academicstyle becauset decidedthat life waste to time the have very short, very myslenous' tnd I didn't i worrlrl onlv say things in the most honest *,i "*i"-,* llkc tt, nne lt not' t can't help that' rodav I ;;;;.;i;;ill(: even if I wanted to! *tii" at:a<lt'ttrlt'irlly "oUa"'t This was a m()lll('lll ol lrll('conversion'
l learned to to ttrll slorl.s lirr my daughter Raquel i i;;.e wtth for (' write for children. 'l'll('l ls l lxrspital-nearby t\ildr1n me brought that about lol t $ wlllr rrry <l;iughter ""t ".a--aoar.r"a"at stories abottl th'rtllt to '*Tite of my children' WithI have learned vt'ly, vct y tllt tt lt lrom all me about grace' They've out e,re., t nowing tt, ilt('y lirrvc lrrrrght
iRichard interPreters

was the birth.,of The most radical change in my life

my

Protestant Shaull ls tnlr. rrl llrt' krrcttx)st North American theol ogy. of l-atin Anlcrlt ll lI l l l x ' rl | l k n r

Rubem Alves

r93

inside the Roman Catholic church than inside the protestant churchesl A famous Catholic theologian once said that we proteslants don't know-the meaning of papal infallibility. W. ii." r.r_ strument of oppression. But really, papal i;fallibility "r* was defined "., in such precise terms that everything outside this narrowly de_ flned area was not infallible. On the 6ther hand, we prolestants replaced this with 'biblical infallibility,. which is invoked by anv pastor tn any congregation, making ttre repression insiOe tfr'e Protestant church rnuch worse than in the iatholic. You are no longer rDith tfle presbgterian sider Aoursev a Protestqnt?

church. Do gou still con-

Definitely. I am very much a protestant_and this ts why I . protestant churches in tsrazlt. !rok99ff mV relationships with the In I97O I wrote a letter of resignation saying that Ilr:rz lan Protestant churches for me were a kind of groiesque resrrrr(,(, lion of the_most repulsive aspects of medievil Cathollclsnr. rrntl tnrs was tlle reason why. in the name of protestanusnt, I wits resignlng.

Whg do gou think Pentecostal protestant churclrcs are rlt u I -lloru-L,;t so mtrch in Brozil and the rest oJ L6.:tin Amertca? A sense of loneliness, the need for personal and enx)lkl ||l experience. One of the issues liberaflon theologr has to lirrr. ln that it has little to say about the personal dtmeision ()l llli.. lt rl father or mother comes with theiidead child, it's no c<trrrr,l,rrr,,,, '!n the future just society there will be no morc (lcirlltr{ t9 sa_y, l this kind." This brings no comfort! The pentecostals havt, n rrrr guage for that, but liberation theologz doesn't. My feeling is that the liberation theologz has to son)(.(.xtr, r unl.eamed the art of speaklng directly to ttie .rr.ry personll tr.irr,s and arudeties-the fear of death, anxieties aboui ttre futrrrc, rrc pression-because of its emphasis on sociological, poll cirl iUrrl economic criteria. As has often been written, the Fente<rrstrrls
Rubem s\,,'lngs underneath thejobuticaba his back yard Aarden. tree ln

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peodon't pay due attention to the political But' in my opinion' ple choose a religion which brings them a word of consolation an when they are facing personal tragedy, rather than choosing ideolory which promises overall social salvation' use- the soJor tts he,aDA You strongla crtticize Ltberatian theoLogA -oJ and' respectfuLfrEnd oJ both Gtts ctal scieiJs, get gou ore a cLose tc.}o Gutierrez and l-eonardo Boff. Liberation theolog/ is absolutely essentiaMn my v-ersion of liberation theologr, *hi"h i" bott] from an exuberant allirmation are destined for this earth' For me' of the beauty oilif., -. world! I hate heaven! I want the earth' heaven is worse than the The origin of my liberation the1h""" flo.".t", thejoLbuticolbc-tree! to reolog/ is an erotic exuberance for life We need to struggle world' rith whole the sto[ tlts erotic exuberance' to share this \ oJ I l(jctr thot Aou LDroteo tetter to lAonardo BoIf on the occosion hls silencing. wh6;t LDC.S Aour nESSage to him? Leonardo and I are very close friends l wrote an adicle' a I never kind of personal meditation about his silencing' which Roman of the dared to published. I said that for me, the vision see' the You Catholic church is the image ofthe Gregorian chant' soul the Gregorian chant has no sense of time' This represents of the oitti" no*u" C:rtholic church-there is no haste' So if one the because singers is sil('ll( (\l s()mc(imes, it doesn't matter 'l'ltcre is no sense of individuality' cholr goes on sirrAirrA! U] tneory is llris: llr('s(' Catholic theologians remain silent becauie they sirrtplv t itrtttol lircc the pain of having the rnystical keep union with thc Ittollt, rs wtrtttlrcrtt off. They rvould rather ('rtainties world! secular of the orriat th^tt b" bortl ll lto lll(' Illt{ llt kind of people becausewe are irl'( rr (llll( 11 We Protestzrtlls we're motherless.We iltt'rrt pltrrtts rvc rtt-t'alone-you see?And' if So for is cry' do to rl child alone, the only thit rg lr'll lor .t I t tr ltt'rless ( lonely the but chant' Protestantsthe syttllxrl l., tr{'l IIr( ircgorian prophetin the dcst'tl wlrtr( |lr':' ('rrt' I ended my arll( ! l'Y l( lllrr,',l,t'orrardohow impossible his silencing was for tttr', rr.tl'ltt1' liP|rth. lloff. Speak!" As you can I neverg()l llrr' rrll' k ltrltrl((l' imaP.ine.

What do Aou think i.s at the root oJ this conllid lx,ttltt\,n tlk, t. tl can and the church oJ liberation in Brazil? For me it's very simple. konardo once t<lldrnt,. wlr.n lrr. wrrx under Vatican inquiry, that what was at stake w:ls llol lilr.r.i| | tr,r I theolog/ at atl. I wrote an article saying that thc lionrilt) Cirilrrrl|t, church can swallow liberation theolog/ w.ith easel .l-ht, lrorrlrk. ls ecclesiolog/. The question put to Boff was, ..WhV havc vou lx. come a Protestant?"The trouble is the ecclesioloA/inrl)li(\l l r. grassroots communities, it's a protestant ecclesioloAy trt,r.iursr. tr implies a transfer of authority from the Holy See to thc l<x.rrl rrrrr gregation. This is the heresy of Luther! Ofien the wealthg elites, mtlitary leaders and. euen death srrwrrs target the same people usla are tnestigated. bA the V'.licen. ls there more thonju.st a coinctdental link betrueen these grorros.? l,et me give a roundabout answer. About two years irgo ir Sao-Paulo newspaper published a long article aboui a mt,r.rrrr4 of the representatives of the l,atin American armies hcl(l trI Uruguay.tt That document was amazing, because they listt,rl rrll the dangerous theologians who should be kept under <.ontr.ot. The list of theologians started with myself ani also menli()n(.(l Hugo Assmann and Pablo Richard. None of the important lilx.r;r tion theologians were mentioned-not Gustavo Culicrrr.z, Clodovis or Leonardo Boff, or Frei Betto. I asked myscll.wtrv. Surely the military couldn't be that stupid! And suddt,rrly rr dawned on me that the criteria for these Is[s were ecclesiol()At(.i rtl
+rTheactual meeting ol tlt(, tTth Conferenceof ArnericirrrArrrrrr.:, was held in Argentina in Novc ll)cr lgg7. lt was later acknowl(\lA(\l lry seven I atin American prcsi(l(,t)tsat their summit meeting in IJntArr]tv, in October of 1988. Ai tlr(' )87 Conference,fifteen corirntarrrl,rsrrr chief. including one fnrrrr llr( tjrrilcd States, approved a secr(,l (1{ttl nental security plan wlrt(lt wrrs cvcntually leaked to the prcss lry;rrr Argentinean human rigll ts li rrvy|r. 'l'lreclocumentattacks liberall(,r I I lr(, olog/ as a tool of int('nlrllotrirl (.() lrtrunism, and lists Alves antl sr.vr.rr .hard-core others as belonginglo l lr. t|t'r\t rli|lrgt.rous Marxisl. tc o(.nr.v in liberation theoloAy.'llrrt r:rtr.Aorvalso included Salvador.ln ,J(,sl|ll Ignacio Ellacuria wlro wrrs ;rss.r,sinateclby the Salvadoran nrux.rl ForcesAll.rtcatl llallilllo tll Nr'r.(.Dllx,r lgg9.

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I u't

criterion for The military alone could not have devised that remained who theologians their selection. One group-those celibacy-were of vows their i"lii-tfnr t. the churchl who kept them' the milttary because the vatican watches over ;;;;;t and 'otrt"."-myiell Assman Hugo and a Protestant' ila ,rt" the to over tumed i,.*Uf" ni"tt-a' who were both married-were secular "-"f^lttt"f arm. of p.t"t it became clear for me that there was a kind also interests-as ecclesiastical coalition be'tween military and occurred during the Inquisition' Bolf tries to go I heard uou moke a comment tholttuh'enlconardo i-has proatemsftom both sides' whtch sides? ;;*";; ;;;;b"t to face It's Drivate iudgrnent that' on the one hand' he has theologlan'' a liberation as hand' e.it' o? the other ttr. v"iii".. that he'll go on speakinga::111I9:f ilt;;;;"p*iation

Luther wrote about the "one single meaning" for the blblk.[l lrtl, But if you have one single meaning, whether from the ()nf.rn l tive Vatican.line or the progressive line, you must havc Inqltlrl tion-from the right or the left! I read. an article uhere Aou describe "the theolqA of the k{lcrt.,n, . Explnin utnt this nans in the Braztlian context. The title of the adicle was "Living Room Theolol0f ||(l Kitchen Theolo$r."r+r In the livtng room we talk with one anolltdr according to certain rules of politeness about things that orc .r embarrasslng, things that we generally agree on. I\iy hypotherlr is that ecumenical theologr, this conversation between proter. tants and Catholics, has been a li\,'ing room theolog/. Even wllr.n v/e arEiue, we do so according to a certain agreed_on euqu(.llr which allows the dialogue to happen in the first place. The kitchen is completely different. The kitchen is the plrrr,e where unusual ideas visit us, where we don t think clearlv. we think Mth our nose, our mouth, our senses. The Germari llrc ologian Ludwig Feuerbach said that we are what we ea Thts ts a biblical view-the word is something edible, the sacramenl h,l something we eat. I am asking this ultimate question: What is an edible woKt'/ What does tt mean to work with a word that isn't a thought l)ltl an entity to be absorbed into the body? You see, in order to arrive in the kitchen, you have to pirss through many secret places. In a Brazilian home, you havc trr pass through the places of love, the bedrooms. lt is ihis very st, cret thing, which in psychological language we call the rrnc0rr scio rq, This is the very thing that's absent in our ttreolos/l O|lrs is a theolog/ ofthe conscious, that which everyone agree^s (x l. I am asking, what is a theolog/ of the unconsctous? .l.hrs rn my hypothesis: The poUttcal and ethical discourse developerl lrv Protestants and Catholk's irlikc represses the discourse ril lrlt.ir sure and love, the dlscorrrsc ol the kitchen.
ttln Portuguese, lhc ltvt|A rrxrrn is called the sala de uisitd-s_ lllcr ally, the room of vislflng or vlsllot.s. liven in simple homes. the fronl rr<xrl opens into this small roorrr wlrclr. gr rcsts are received. The kitchcn ls I nr room furthest away fronl l l|l. li or rl (loor. and often opens into a l lny vlrfl l or garden, wash area alr{|, l||rlllr.r.l)ack. an outhousc.

qT:Tl::::p; strange. i.'e".e". i"ir "eeminglv T-" -v:!l-"-l approve'-T:5-T::: p.li,r" a""r alwavs
;;;;ii";,i;g"'

life and on St' Franthink his best books are on tI| 'e sacramental

that the liberauon theology has no categories il; ";;;;;;e the themes and the style of these writings' io1""it"if"t" "" *i'.t ^rn" uoth not 1tt"t main problem with liberauon theolog/ is style' the is in truth The whai it says' but how it says it'
most tiberotion tteologg? So ttous toouLd yloLtdcscribe the stgle oJ anthropolos/- which It's scientillc. oarlostan lt implles an I would unconsciou-s' the tt igttoitt th" .t.,,,olls( l()tIs. ll igno; Holv the Paul' believe to are lfwe thc lkrlv sPlrit ;""r;;is";;""

;;;i;il;;il;.1,r1'..

by accepting his contiill need to come to lcrttts wll li Freud-not by accepting his but views' servative and rea('llotlirlv lx)llllctrl ottsr'ltttts' understandingol tllt' ttttt into considerafd like to see tls (l(tltrl{it llttrrktgl that takes emerge if the cannot rrtttrnscious tion the unconsclorls. lillt llrc no room for C".t slall. ll ll'H t l('ilt rttr(l distinct' there's iit""l"gti" s)'rnbol has Medteval lrct rrrrrrcrrll( s knew that the ;;;;ttyl is the The lrlt'rr ttl ottr' prt't ise mening' r#hich I llt' I trt I t t. rtt'r| | lcs' is a Protestant creatlon' -*rri-,i".ti"g". ;J;;;ith"-"clent

t tfint<we t'u' tlt't'pforwords'Personallv'

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It's significant that the Catholic bishops are divided on po' on sexlitical issues-the bishops of the left and the right-but For example. agreement. ual lssues they reach an extraordinary the Brazilian bishops of the left and right agreed to oppose thc sho&'ing of the French lllm, 'Hall Mary. " when we speak of abor' tlon and birth control, there's an amazing agreement, as if sexuality was the most crucial issue' Not one bishop would dare to doubt thls or speak out! It's like the story of Bluebeard who had a secret room that couldn't be opened. In both the Catholic and Protestant churches, ttrere's a room that can't be opened. I believe this ls the room ofpleasure and sexuallty. We've built an ethical and poIttical discourse, but we've repressed the discourse of sexuality and pleasure. lde and seemto hue YouJrequenttg borrow inryesJromeuerydng beings, Wlvre drns human in ordinarV trefiend,otls confd.ence this conreJrom? For me this is linked with the psychoanalytic experience. In psychoanalysis, you have to abandon the idea of "fi:dng' people. iou often don't know what to dol The only thing you can do is offer your companionship. That is, I can and want to hear your reality. The psychoanalyst believes that act of hearing the repressed reality of another person has a healing power, a power to restore human relatlonshiPs. I would say that one of the theological tasks is simply t.|ls: to listen to what the people are saying v/ithout attempting to ffx it. What are the pcoPlc szrying? Wtnt else haue 11orrlt'turr<'rl .liom Aour patients or from your JriEnds tuho arc poor'? Even the patlenl lll lllt'worst situation knows that our relationship isn't just In ollr' {lllr'('ll(nt.To the extent that I allow myself, I am also betng lx'ttlcrl lrv lltt'ml In relationshlp to I ltc ;xrrt . lt tkrcsn't have an),'thing to do wtth the Christian posturc ttl grt tct t tsllv or the "preferential option for the poor." This is an elltlt'ttl lxrslrrr('.l-or me personally, it is absolutelv fun and fasclnrrllttgl(t ll$lctt to what they have to sayl

Whf For example, an illiterate person taught me how to get fruit from that jabuticaba tree. IVe always done it the hard way! This person has wisdom-a way of knowing things, of conversing, a feel for time. Their way is completely different llom mine! I think the option for the poor is sort of arrogant, don't you? "l am the privileged one who will struggle for the poor. I'm on top and they're on bottom." I don't like thisl They have something to say, and tt is a true pleasure for me to listen.

Don't gou think it's tnportarTt for people to struggle on behatJ qf the couse oJ the poor? First ofall, I don't believe in the messlanlsm of the poor. Poor persons suffer from the same struggles of selffshness as the middle-class. And we are all in need of God's sar'lng grace. Sometimes I wonder if there is so much vlrtue ln "poverty." Every Bibtcal promise is against poverty-is of rlchness anrl overlloMng. Nietzsche had a criteria for evaluatlng aesthetl(: crcations: Is this creation a product of poverty or wealth? Whal's I lre difference? We see the difference in Blake, who wrltcs alx)ul "wells overflowing." I think it is essential to restore wlllx)ul shame the beauty of the 'overlloMng." So, for rne, the important question for the worker or lirr'llrc middle-class person is whether there ls "overflowing." I anl lr()rrr geois. I work in the university, I have a car, I have a nk:c lxrrrlc, you and Ijust ate in a restaurant. I don't have to apologlze l(, ||lry one. Ttre essential issue is overllowing love. If we believe in the theolos/ of grace, we can't thtnk lllrt llrr overllowing love of God is restrlcted to the poor alone.'l'lre over' flowing love of God is free.

But doesn't this oDerfloLt)W loue haue both a personal rrrrrl a .rrr cial dinetBion? Certainly, certainly. In specific historical situatlons lil $Iy that this overflo$'ing is only expressed personally. 'l'lrlrrk ol the mystics. There are situations when this love can't cxp 'rr itself physically. It's expressed literally like a great $olltrry song. Other times it's social. Look at the African Amerlcans lD I lt|r U.S. wlth Martin Luther King. Or look at the l:rrxnls llnrrll|ltt

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demonstrations demanding direct elections! These were social situauons of overflowing, where indh'idual people felt like drops great in a huge sea. Everyoneitnging, everyone feeling a part ofa movement. Do gou urile or spak about ecological isstBs l'7 Aow recent uork? Do ihese issnes tolrch the BrozilintT rnasses? Yes, I'm worklng on a book called About the Political Garden' The idea of poliucs comes from polis or the city' The classical city is the placeihere people can be human without being afraid' Inside tliere are beautlful spaces, gardens, and people' We've lost of a this. Our city today is a battle ground. We need this hope great sJrmhuman space, a garden. The garden of paradise is a bol of harmony between humans and nature' Once I was iruited to speak at a conference of the CEBs' People were anaJyz;Jirgour social situauon using classical frameworks. analyzing four hundred years of colonialism, -reDression' etc. Everythlng they said ri/as historically and scientifically accurate. Bui the p.-eopGthere were housewives' poor workers' humble people from the Periphery. i U"g." to speak about gardens and planting-practical had things! Ti-re peopte att tegan to participate because everyone scienttflc This is-the griat difference between tiri" ?*p"ti.i-t"". poetic theologr, which works with concepts' and my theolog/ or pure reato theologr, that works with images. Concepts speak are directed iri.g." speak to the erotic. Let's say concepts "on, the soul. but lmages are directed to the body' to what does thls hitvc to do with theolog8 When you speak poetically, you don't llcc(l lo prove anythtng because the body a1ieady understan<ls wltitl ytxt're saying! You refer to the gardens behind people's httttscs lttttl sity. "People don't wnt to transform garttre country lnto a gilr(l('ll " Yotr make a bridge between the impoetry isn'tjust den and polittcs throttglt 1xx'tk litnguage! So, ;in addlttol lo" r'v('tvll)lng else. It already-is a. form of portant iirect communicatlolt wlllr llrt'body, not just the head' Do gou thittk thot the I tls lorl(1lI ( '' lrtstio.nDieu oJ tle bodg and naurJ has contributed lo lrl,'r'\r'lltsk't ond oppression oJ u)omen? We must frame lt ltr trllttlltt't wily: The way we treat women is the way we treat mett. llrtttctttltcl lhat Orlg('Il lthird centuryl

castrated himself! Why? It was an act against himself based on his concept of women. When you speak about oppression of women, yeu need to understand what men are doing to themselves. I think Catholics are in a better situation than protesmnts because the Catholics have the Virgin Mary. Protestants only have Mothers' Day! Catholics pursue a perfect mother in the heavens. They idealize the removed mother. you see this in children's stortes-the mother is always dead and you have the godmother or stepmother. The Protestants have to deal urith the emplrlcal mother. She is allve. I think both Protestants and Catholics have killed the woman for the sake of the mother. The whole sense of the virginity of Mary basically says 'up with Mother, down with woman." That ls, the church has a special place for the mother, but not for the woman; for matemity, but not for sexuallty. Both Catholics and Protestants have enormous ideological structures that don't know what to do with the sexuality of women-or the sexualitv of ment

Hauhg liDed in both the U.S. and BroziL ttshichli,.s more oJa consumer societA? And utnt Junction does cotTsuj.rPrlsm serue? I believe that Brazil ls more fascinated by consumerism than the U.S. Look at TV for tnstance. When I visit homes in the U.S.. perhaps it because ofwho I visit, but the TV is very marginal. you turn it on to watch a specillc program. But here in Brazil. TV has become the great shrine of the house! Family life happens arouncl the TV. Consumerism ls parl ol capitalism-it's good businesst lron, lcally, it functions to nevr.r allow people to become sa sfled.'fhc dialectic ofour soclety ls llrirt of unhappiness. You consume h'. cause it promises you sonlclhing. You buy something and the ephemeral promlse soOrrllr'<rrmes frustration-as soon as a n(:w product appears. You irrt. illways trying to arrive at happlncss, but you never get th(:rc.

It seems ue are d,II {rr llr| srrrrrc boot*poor anrl riclt North and South-alike. Hotu do rot, ty,t rnl oJ this cycle oJ unhappiness? I don't know. I know rr li.w tsolated people who have brokrrr with thls llli.slylt'ol t:orrr tl)llon. Thls ls very (r)nllslnI lt| l F,

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because these more radical optlons of a simple lifestyle are pos' sible for single people, priests. But there comes a time when you realize you are a prlsoner to a web of relationships. It is very dtfIicult to make radical ruptures. It affects too many people. Do Aou see ottler options thal ore more auailable to people like youT Well, you can consciously reject money. For example, I spend less ume earning money so that I have more ume to write or do what I want. That is, I reject money or possessions because there are other things I value more. Taking time to write is a disaster from an economic point of !'iew! You eafn more money from one lecture than from all the sales ofone book. The ques on is what is important to you. We have to commit to some things that are absolutely lnsigniffcant in economic termsl Members of Catholic religious communiues are more privlleged in this situation, which seems an injusUce. The Catholics have the luxury of Franclscan povertyl In reality this means they don't have to worry about their expenses, illness or hospital bills, because the church and religious orders provide everything.