Words And Consciousness Author(s): ALLEN GINSBERG and ROBERT DUNCAN Source: The American Poetry Review, Vol.

3, No. 3 (May/June 1974), pp. 52-54 Published by: American Poetry Review Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40743370 . Accessed: 23/11/2013 01:35
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GINSBERG & DUNCAN

Ball edited from Allen Verbatim, byGordon
to be published Allen Verbatim, in September of this year combinesconver(McGraw-Hill), lectures sations& informal by Allen Ginsbergrecordedduring a readingtour from cross-country D.C. & Kent State to Washington, Davis, Ca. duringthe springof 1971.The talks weretaped,tran& editedby GordonBall, scribed, withhim.Bewho was travelling low are two chaptersfromthe book,"Wordsand Consciousness" and "EarlyPoeticCommunity." "Words and Consciousness" records an epistemology class State Uniat Wisconsin meeting AG in which points out versity between discrepancies phenomena and same phenomapprehended ena communicated through conventional speech. overly-used from speciously Proposedas relief moresophisticated usage language develis mantra (prayer-thought oped by Hindus & Buddhists, orseveral mostcommonly one. syllables,sungor repeated quietlyor silently),which can incorporate entire it). (try bodyconsciousness In "Early Poetic Community," Allen & RobertDuncan continue a discussionof human relationduringArts ships withinpoetry, Festivalweekat Kent State. "No wondrwe're in a commonarea that can be defined," says RD, "We knowthatthepoemis an ocand poetrycarcasion of spirit," ries "a feelingof faith moving Duncan recountsearly through." Olson & sew/Charles meetings of O. as recognition rendipitous necessary poetguide& companion to fully become poet himself. The UsingPon Allen'swatershed New AmericanPoetryanthology forhis discussion, as touchstone RD contrasts naturalcommunity of east fewest coast poets who'd nevermetbut shareda correspondence of spiritwith the then-established credentialed poets confined to academy thinking on poesy. theyhad monopoly is ba"In this mode,perfection sic," wrote William Carlos Williams to Allen Ginsbergof the versificalatter's"rhymed silvery tion" composedwhen he was 21. siThis as well as approximately multaneous exvisionary-mystical periences shifted AG towards of his own experidirectnotating as shownin ence in its own form, Lunch Hour," "The Brick-layer's "In Society,"and otheryouthful works recited below. Likewise friendship w/Jack Kerouac to withit JK's attention brought at consciousness moment present of of composition and recognition writing as mortal-hence inefis conThis insight fable-gesture. RD in firmed odd by magicalway (see their discussionof Robert's visit to Allen's hotel room) that
Page 52 and He has written ofNorth Carolina. at theUniversity Ball is a student Gordon poetry andfarmed. madefilms fiction,

to thepresence testifies ofpoetry. Poets (e.g. O'Hara, Ashbery; Snyder, Whalen) on opposite coaststhough theyhad nevermet wereunitedlate 1940's, Allensugeffort of"explogests, by common rationof the contentsof present

consciousness during composition." AG's ownrecent(from 1971-) intensive improvisationof music & poetry (blues,rags,own forms) of this seemsa naturalextension effort. Gorden Ball

EpistemologyClass, Wisconsin State University Platteville,Wisconsin,April 13, 1971 Q: Would it be fairto say that languagegetsin the way oftruth truth? orin thewayofobtaining because of the AG: Very oftenway languageis used. But there are one or two uses of language as in withtruth, thatare identical lanwhere certain practice, poetry as purely guageis used as mantra, magic spell, not as rational de(which one would ususcription to truth), to be nearer assume ally at rationaldewhere any attempt is abandoned fromthe scription and it is undervery beginning stood that the languageis purely magicspell,and that its function is to be onlymagicspell,or manso to speak-thatits tra,or prayer, is only to be a physifunction ological vehicle for feelingsand as such. understood In other words if you know you're goingto use language to say "Oh!" thenthe"Oh!" is identiof cal with the body movement saying"Oh!'*or withthe feeling. Or thecry"Oh!",theexclamation, use of language, the exclamatory so is identicalwith its function, in thatsense. truth it'scomplete WhenI said magicspellor magical use of language that's all I meant-emotional affective exthe language use where clamatory to carry any is not attempting weightof "reality"other than a from projection purelysubjective the body. So that's a theoryof mantra. isthat whatI amsaying Basically as wellas reasonshows experience that whenwe have to reduceour of consciousness multiple-sensory weknow aboutinto which an event so much wehavetoabstract words, mostofthe dethat we eliminate tailsoftheevent. Right?So a lanis not of guagedescription an event is an abwiththe event, identical Anditissuch oftheevent. straction outonly thatitpicks anabstraction certainaspectsof the eventthat *with at the mowe'repreoccupied Andso in no waycan a lanment. of an event be guage description said to be comprehensively representative, really,of the event.In ifan event factwedon'tevenknow an and weonlycall thething exists eventbecausewe see it and hearit itandthese areallstrictly andsmell

And Consciousness Words

humanfunctions, veryspecialized functionshuman smelling, seeing, hearing. be a bigcolorevent Whatmight to a dog be nuthin' to us wouldn't 'cause dogs see black and white. facets. Anda bee seesmore myriad senses that So it'isour particular withwhatever's collaborate going to makean eventto beon outside gin with.And then when we refrom whatever duce everything we wenton outside, pluswhatever could pickup ofit withour scanning patterns,with our senses, removeof what plus the further we reduceit to whenwe say "It or "It was a was an explosion," was a big "It or music concert," a bust"-by bust, big university it to just a thetimewe'vereduced it's so far reword description that might movedfrom anything have ever happened in eternity that we can't claim to be talking real aboutanything coherently ifsomeonewantedto, However, the wholeuse theycould redefine of language and say there'sanexotheruse ofit whichis purely pressive,subjectivelyexpressive, exhaledis a conthebreath where scious articulation of feeling ...thereforethe spoken breath, "Ah-om" or "Oh" or "Ah" or "Uuh," is identical with the because it eventthat it describes, ... As Blake says,"For is theevent. a Tear is an Intellectualthing,/ Anda Sighis the Swordofan Angel King."* The tear and the sigh...well, the sigh at any rate you could speak of as language. a body The sigharticulates clearly of state a of state a feeling, state, . articonsciousness;not merely withits culatesit but is identical the like own Idea. So, tear,it is also presumablyan intellectual is idenJustliketheorgasm thing. so a sighis identiticalwithitself, of calwithitself.Andthesound the sigh-well it isn't the entire sigh because there's also the the sound of the breathmovingwith what it is identical sigh other statemost unlike means, ments, or unlike most other sounds.Most soundsare not completelyidenticalwith what they to. refer Anotheraspect of language is

takenup in discussnot generally to commuingtheuse oflanguage is notnicateknowledge, generally whenwe tryto dissect considered and analyzewhatlanguage is,how and whatit'sbeing it'sfunctioning usedfor:thetoneofvoiceoraffect withwhichit's pronounced (ifthe is pronounced aloud),belanguage from cause thatmakesit different You can whenit's just eye-read. use the same wordsand say them "I love withdifferent tones,from YOU?" to "I love you." Two people can say exactlythe same and withthesameintention thing one person reallymeanit and the notmeanit and youcan tell other difference the by whether the ofthe thecenter voicecomesfrom thevoiceis just a bodyor whether little superficialweakened yak center. thetopofthelarynx from David So between Dellinger saying "We must end the war" and Kissingersaying "We must end the war" there'slikea difference of content,though they're Voice thesamewords. bothsaying tone is one aspect of sound I nowawouldpointto particularly with days whenwe'reconfronted the image of one single person on telemyriad multiplied talking, do hear vision.People intuitively to consciously it,butit is essential as ofbody, of tone the check voice, or out whether a way^offinding whether not the voice is genuine, or not it meanswhatit says. And the best way to do that is not to get confusedby the intellectual or the associational presentation pattern presentedfor hypnotic themselves by the words purposes the words but to look underneath which thewords, for to thevehicle and see ifthevoiceitis thevoice, is self-onthelevelofvoiceaffectan acceptablevehicle.We have a in thatsenseto be aesthetic, right or to put it another way,we have we have a emotionalbe to a right ofall,so most to our feelings, right in we've got to checkthe feelings realizeaffect. thevoice, orfeelSo there's tone,oraffect, conthat's and the of voice, ing nected very much with the whether of the languagerhythm of it's a naturalrhythm language it's a forcedartificial or whether affected bureaucratic dryrhythm affected by multiplemachinery, many by its beingpassedthrough whetherit's an autypewriters, thentic human personal voice talking,or whetherit's a voice so that has been filtered through human the that machines many has beenlost. rhythm Most public speech is pseudoin thesensethatitis notthe event of a literalhumanbeing; product it's literally non-human. It's passed throughso many hands that it no and so manymachines human a orgalongerrepresents inhaland expiring, nisminspiring ing and exhaling,rhythmically. no longer The sentencestructure that affect to relation has any any could be tracedalong the linesof inhalation and exhalation- in sad to say, the voice otherwords, the be can finally separatedfrom
*From Blake's "The pey ^Monk." For see on thispoem, comments somepolitical "War and Peace: Vietnam an,d Kent State."

Review ^ie AmericanPoetry

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body. If the voice is completely from it means thebody, separated thattherhythm willbe fucked up, it meansthe affect will be fucked has any up, it meansit no longer humancontent, actually.It probably means it doesn'tmean anything, even, finallyby mean, that could be connected anything back to the physicaluniverseor thehumanuniverse. of manSo the characteristics tra, then-or poetics(the seed of are attention poeticsis mantra)connectionwith the to rhythm, withthe actual breathing, breath, with and so connection and affect, the body. Charles Olson talks about poetryas an extensionof languageas an extenphysiology, sion of physiology.1 Mainly from thispointofview:that the words do connectfinally we pronounce to our body> connect to our breathing, particularly, and feelto feeling, connects breathing ing articulatedin language. Poetry is a rhythmic vocal and theconoffeeling articulation as well as is feeling tentofpoetry else you would call it if whatever I it were removedfromfeelinglanreflex conditioned suppose guagechainassociations. is that The Hindu proposition forbodysound thereare faculties in language that have atrophied temrecent and very thetransient porary cultures that substitute of immechanical reproduction communiageryforinterpersonal cation of imagery. Sort of in nature thevery McLuhan'sterms, and and linearthinking ofreading reproduced language-language images reproducedand read silanlently-hastendedto abstract it thin and communication guage less giveit less body, out,actually, ofbody And so faculties meaning. and sound rhythmic deepbreathedlanguagebehaviorhave atrophied. But that's only a temporary in the sense that out of condition thousandyearsof insay twenty tellectual historyrecoided from to cave paintings theMagdalenian last the in it's only the present, hundred yearsor so that we'veso voice direct abandoned completely and exercisesof communication voice communicationincluding of are characteristic chant which. almost every tribal group scattered all over the globe over a viableperiodoftime muchlonger, methan our own verytransient civilization. chanical Now we'reexamining epistemology under very specialized circumstances, using language to discussthe limitsoflanguage.We orthe don'thavethephilosophical educational armamentariumof tribalsocieties moresophisticated who have a much more varied ofbodysounds.Ameriknowledge chandid community Indians can as well as and too, dancing ting as part of theirfoodmeditation, rituals.In orderto kill gathering would have to be there buffalo on the soul ofthe bufmeditation of the buffalo falo and imitation chantand an identiand a buffalo and a ficationwith the buffalo, bufof the sacramental knowledge falo that we don't have whenwe
June 1974 May/

piece of frozen get a prepackaged meat in a piece of plastic. So it inalso required sitting, patience, and rhythmic ternalobservation, or to just to getbuffalo, chanting, rethe evenrabbit a patience get quired to sit under a tree and smelland waitand listen. forfood That patiencerequired mind conconditioned gathering to attention to greater sciousness minuteparticulardeimmediate tail aroundthe body,conditioned the tribal food gatherer going about his practicalbusinessto a moredirectrelationship (through his senses) withthe outerworld, of labor and just as our division written with mental absorption conour conditions language sciousnessto accept as real that in verbal can be formulated which sequenceand put down on paper and Xeroxed.It and read silently means that to us only a written or real, whereas eventis credible of otherculIndians or members their their take would tures event, more on act and it, reality, directly. an advanoursystem's Whether tage or not I don't know.As it the stands,it seemsto be ruining our of nature The very planet. doomsus to powerof abstraction lose touchwithdetail.And thererootsofthetreesare the very fore and the withering, shriveling, oceans are beingpollutedsimply because we have reduced everythingto a languagewhichcan be passed through machines. Obviously machines aren't sophisticatedenoughto take accountof all variables, aren't as sophisin that ticatedas menand women sense. We've lost our world by pursuingour kind of language specialization. to the BuddhistDiaAccording as mond Sutra, "All conceptions ofthe selfas well to the existence as to the nonas all conceptions as well as all the of existence self, of existence the to as conceptions a Supreme Self,as wellas all conof as to thenon-existence ceptions arbiare a SupremeSelf, equally trarybecause they are only con. . ." and are nottheentity ceptions that we are ac(or non-entity) tually sittingin the middle of, whichhath no category, name,or but is itself,and as abstraction such is "open"-that is, unlimited bylanguage. Since "life" cannot be cateit within magicalbehavior gorized, cannot be ruled out, since there for are no rules. Therefore, highest ofit all, or ofthecenter knowledge of it, forone aspect of knowledge one would have to use language withthebehavthatwas identical than rather ioroftheentity itself, of the behaviorof the descriptive And that languagebehaventity. So I wouldsay is prayer. ioritself of epistemologithe highestform would be prayer. cal research By prayerI mean a kindof mantra. In otherwords,use of rhythmic language to rouse the senses, and arouse arouse perceptions, senseofinner space,to alterall of thanto rather consciousness itself, the language digits rearrange one realmofconsciousness. within it could It couldbe quietor silent,

without be prayer words, i.e.,just attentionmaybe attention, pure to noto breathing, or attention thing. RecentlyI read a Sadhana of the Nyingmapasect of Tibetan the same sect TantricBuddhism, whieh teaches the Oh Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum The ritmantranow in America. ual involveda series of preparato and visualizations toryprayers of ideological deities,and formed an attitudeofmindtowardmediand towardthe end of the tation, the instruction Saddhana reads: "Rest in state of abruptly Mind as long as non-conceptual possible." And that's like the heartof it, the restof the magicwas just an invocationof blessingspreparing having youto sitstill. . . youknow, all sortsof conceptions exhausted on top of ofBuddha-forms sitting your body your head showering fiwithambrosiaand everything, in remain nonconcepnally you tualmind. There's a guru in New York teachingthis, and I asked him, "How do youdo that?"'Cause I'm usedto doinga mantra, youknow, like sitting,meditatingwith a so he said, "Oh, well,one mantra, is to look in between way bethoughts,in the interstices tween thoughts."So that that theory of knowledgeis a very practicalthing: these pragmatic, theproteachers actuallyexamine in the head, cessionof thoughts dig. In other words,meditation theexcludoesn'ttakeforgranted sive reality of "thoughts," as does in a Westernepistemology sense. It doesn'ttake forgranted of the lanthe substantialness processwhichconguage-thought siders the nature of knowledge. exmeansnot merely Meditation it ofwords, the definition amining the mind-stuff means examining of whichthe wordsare made, or of whichthe conthe mind-stuff sciousnessis made. And so one practical suggestionfor getting intothatis "Well,now,lookat the Which thoughts." gapsin between means that you have to actually notget examine thoughtliterally lost in thought.In other words you don'tbecomepartofthought and getsweptaway in it,likein a boat. You getout ofthe boat and itthe natureof thought examine true is I that and suppose self, ... and that's where epistemology does lead, Westernepistemology It in certainwriters. ultimately, would have to, unless it were to thiscloseddreamsysexistwithin tem,you know,and neverreally forI wouldimget outsideitself, beginswith agine real knowledge of or stuff nature the examining examabout knowledge, thought ining the ground in which takeplace. thoughts culturethe equivaIn Western would ofresearch kind that of lent You'd tradition. lie in the gnostic have to startwithHeraclitusand and Iamblichus examine Porphyry and PythagoBoehme Jakob and ras. There is, in fact, a heavy Western traditionin this area, extensively it'snotstudied though beas part of formal philosophy

( cause aroundA.D.300,whenEmtook over the ] perorConstantine 'Church, out bythe it gotstomped time as of that CIA so-to-speak ' anti-authoritarian. being Aroundthe 1750's in England was a greatGreekand Latin there scholar named Thomas Taylor,of all thefragments whotranslated that had surthe churchfathers and vivedburning by Constantine the Council of Nicea when they all theheretical damned doctrines, recordof the burnedall written of modalities factthat alternative examor seen be universe might the central ined; and reinforced oneofJehovah-Con authoritarian a Made stantine-Emperor-Pope. would be deal, that Constantine the head of the Churchand also the head of the state,'and also what his boys would determine theoriesof the nature of reality and to theChurch wereacceptable was an there words State.In other within official reality imposedof outside "Don't words, words, get That was partofit. either!" all those So Taylorgottogether and his manuscripts fragments, wereexamined by WilliamBlake and at great length byall therevoofhisday,evenThomas lutionaries drewa greatdeal Paine. Coleridge as didShelley.Bronfrom Taylor, son Alcottwentto Englandto get he which ofTaylor's a library work, broughtback to Brook FarmthewholeAmerican affected which tradition of Transcendentalism. When Brook Farm communists weren'treading the Upanishads and the Vedas,theyweredrawing up on gnosticNeoplatonictexts from Taylor.Whichmayhave afwhoprobHermanMelville, fected Andthe ablyalso saw thosetexts. booksthatAlcottbrought specific backfrom Englandwereloanedto and annotated Emerson by Alcott and Emerson. of mindis very So examination mucha partofour ownAmerican That's where William tradition. to comesin,whenhe begins James go into practicalphenomenology conofaltered at thepraxis andgets Reliin The Varieties sciousness of Andthatsetup a giousExperience. situation for pragmaticexperiwithtranscendental ments insight ledto thepoetics which at Harvard of GertrudeStein, whose poetry or examofmeditation was a form itself oflanguage ination bymeans andover itover ofrepeating againin to see if it combinations different conditioned from couldbe removed could as ifassociations associations, so thatthey off thewords becleaned sounds. trie were just man in That also led to thesituation 1919whenVirgil (later Thompson of Gertrude a friend Stein) was a young musicianaround Harvard talking with S. Foster Damon (who was a greatBlake scholar), and I thinkDamon.gave Thompson Four Saints in ThreeActs or Steinas a some textby Gertrude and consciousof study language ness. And in that old contextof William James (the anesthetic revelations chapterof The VariViretiesofReligious Experience), gil Thompson gave S. Foster Damon two peyote buttons in Yard. Harvard
Page 53

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So the Westerngnostictradition can best be studiedin such savings as Pythagoras's"Everywe see whenawakeis death, thing and when asleep, dream"; or, regardingthe use of language for the old Heraclitus generalization, still holds: "You can't statement step in the same river twice." Meaningthat you can't make a whichwill be good generalization a minute later, not exactly the same generalization. You can't make a statement absolutelydeof an event even if the scriptive statement is identical with it. in the Even an Om is not eternal, sense that the Om changeswith the Om-er, fromminuteto minno hiding ute,so there's place even in mantra.There's no rest from continued orchange. creation Q: I have one on yourstatement about the chant and how in contemporarysociety, at least in it seemsto havegoneout America, of existence.Could you explain that?Whyare peoplethinking difthat's whydo theythink ferently, notofconsequence anymore? reaAG: Well, a lot of different sons. It's not exactlyeventrueto out ofexsay it's gonecompletely istence,because the Black tradiin the tionkeepsthe chantgoing, sense that the bodychantis still therein jazz and in spirituals, up to the politicaluse of it in "We there still are shall Overcome"remnantsof Africchantingand and drumming. dancing But while inBlackculture someis the domivery thing deep-souled nant mode, in white culture something veryshallow and unlikeMantovani, Musak,or chanty, Pat Boone is dominant, exceptfor some Promethean folk-rock.I would say the reason forthat is that is, usury. maybecapitalismto makemoneyout People trying of mass production, monopolizing the replicamachines, dominating the printing (image reproduction and television and ramachinery) dio. The fact that the radio and television airspaceis for sale,is not common but is just inteproperty intothecommercial Wheel, grated meansthat onlysuch bodysound as is commercial willbe broadcast. neuTelevisionis a connecting rologicallink betweenthe separate cells of the body politicour And our communications culture. is dominated network by capitalin otherwordsyou've isticusurygot to make moneyon it. To the extentthat the body chant is an comassertionof a nonusurious mon communal communistic ofsoul amongall members sharing of the body politic,not merely but members of the body politic, inofthbodyofnature, members cludingthe animalsand the trees and the grasses...to the extent chant communal that the highest is a chant of unisonand oneness and that capiwithall of nature, talism and our economicsystem chopping up requirethe excessive or the minofnatureintolumber, to of natureing and exhausting it's partlyour that extentI think us economicsystemthat forbids thevery natureof to chant.Partly themachinery.
Page 54

too that in the Q: It's interesting churches youwon'tfind nowadays chants.I likeGregorian anything whenwe remember myexperience had chants- not in a Catholic onechurchbut in a Protestant we'd do it, but it wasn't very popular. BeAG: Embarrassing, probably. of causeit'sa wholearea offeeling, communal familyritual feeling, Andthereasonit's is feared. which feared is because it's a breakthroughonto a whole new consciousnesswhich is not like the inculcated social consciousness by or orradioornewspapers television mamanimal another it's politics, that's unified mal consciousness theconwith theworldyouknow, the comthatwe share, sciousness passionate consciousnessof the mindand the heartthatwe share withthe bald eagles and the blue whales.And sincewe keep killing and thebaldeaglesit all thewhales to voice wouldn'tbe appropriate that consciousness-I mean it to voice would be revolutionary to articulate that consciousness, it and welcome thatconsciousness awareness. front-brain to surface And that's why Africanritual werein a sense always jazz forms

and whentheywere revolutionary passed on across the Atlantic through the Beatles and the Stones, throughRock, through of backto thechildren electronics, another generation who began shaking their hips and making that chant sound,it was part of as the JohnBirch the revolution, said in 1965, very prophetSociety ically.They said the Beatles were and body rhythms usinghypnotic vibrations and strange movements of the to alter the consciousness themand to kidsand to hypnotize consciousness through getanother "reathat was not like American sonable" morals.Rock was supposed to dissolve the rational consciousness of the Western as world. Theysaw it immediately remember a threatand a dangerin thesixties? thosepamphlets
inRobert 1.See Olson's"Projective Verse," of Charles ed., SelectedWritings Creeley, Olson (New York: Newnew Directions, or samein Donald M. Al1966), pp. 15-26; (New Poetry len,ed., The New American York:Grove 1960), Press, pp.386-397. Presshas recently 2. Princeton University seriesThomasTayissuedin its Bollingen Raine edited lorthePlatonist byKathleen Series MillsHarper.Bollingen and George N.J.1969. LXXXVIII, Princeton,

Robert Duncan) (with Honors College

Kent State April 7, 1971 I ourdiscussions RD: In following thinkyou've already got an imto meis ofhowimportant pression a kind of continuity moving and a relationship poetry through of poets and, bothof a fellowship of inheritance an of time, through spirit.Since I've been here I've of talkedaboutthebiginheritance discover in which your you spirit like Blake discovers own fathersof he reallyis thenextincarnation Milton and the antitypeof MilYeats is for ton.As later, instance, as he to discover himself, going that he is immediately discovers relatedto Blake and thento Miltonand thento Spenser. I want to talk Today, though, notaboutthatarea ofmagicaldiscoveryin solitude,but one that happens when you belong to a ofpoets. company When Don Allen's anthology1 appearedin 1960,it caused shock waves of outrage and horror the Americanpoetic throughout He didn't edit it establishment. are usuallyedited. likeanthologies He felttherewas a poetry everywhere,and he consultedvarious people,variouspoets,and had inand it lookedto thehorformants, liketherewas establishment rified another establishmentforming. Well,whattherewas,was a community.Some of those poets I hadn'treadat all and didn'tknow of-likeI was on the theexistence westcoast; I didn'tknowtheexistenceoftheNew Yorkschool.But you can drawa map and findout rethat my poetryis intimately and ofAshbery latedto thepoetry

PoeticCommunity Early
O'Hara and Koch, and this is a actual community. true, But what was revealed to us was thatwhereas we'dthought we wereisolatedbefore, and thenwe thought, well, there's a little groupof us, we suddenlydiscoveredthat actuallythisthingthat in poetry had happened had many different the Beat Moveguisesmentwas one ofthem. The intelliis genceof Don Allen'santhology that it includedthem all. Allen [G.] came bearing the message that therewas Kerouac'spoetryI'm sure you all knowKerouac's butwe stilltryto getacross prose, the messagethat Kerouac was a poet. Actually,Kerouac paid no attention to his poetry, whichwas all right, he was in proseand he was juniorJames Toyce or someand so he let go thesemarthing, velous Mexico City Blues. That wasn't part of what he projected in message,but for Allen, and Corso, and... there must be another one in thereCorso, Kerouac,youand whoelse? AG: I think thatPeter[Orlovsky] was writing a little bit. RD: At thattime. But for instance also properly in theanthology, but in a different sectionwerepeople verycloselyassociatedwithAllen in the west coast [G.] personally becauseSnyder and Whalen scene, were about a different business. See, that's the accuracy of that anthology. The Now,that'sjustonesection. sectionon New York poets is so beautifully, actually it, that you can't findone missing or one un-

fitting poetin there.I don'tmean us- it formed that the anthology showedwhen it finallyappeared we were.Andwe were howformed to we belonged formed naturallyantholIt's theonly environments. one, ogy I knowof,and thefirst there's never been another one since that's been composedthat of way that was- an environment are. the Usually they way poets inno inanthologies exhibited we're who wantedto way thatanybody wouldaccept. getthefeelofthings to be in the I was Now, refusing becauseI hate antholoanthology gies,and notuntilI saw a table of to be in it. did I consent contents because in I'm anthologies Today three I gave up, finally, yearsago. inwas distressed, New Directions andeed,that I wantedto refuse thologies, and that I had a if an anthologyis not formula, interedited bya poetthatI think esting-I don't mean that I agree with him...if Edith Sitwell or Yeats or Pound had everwanted me in an anthology, yes, regardI agreedabout it, less of whether and whenAudenwantedme in an of my yes, regardless anthology, own distasteforAuden's role in He is a poet,and it's fascipoetry. ,natingwhat'sin that anthology until he came to my generation. But thenhe musthavebeenright, I was withH.D. and becausethere and peopleI reallyloved, Williams it turnsout. So and so didAuden, of some this must be an entente kind. strange OK, I was in the Allen anthology."No," I said,"Don, I don'tbelong in that group,in the San Francisco Renaissance." I never reallycame home and discovered that I had a place wheremysoul really belongedtill after I met CharlesOlson.Charleswas botha and at the same contemporary a paternal role.In Kabtimefilled we balism-it's all in thosefathers talkedabout the otherday,Abraa four ham, Isaac, Jacob forming AndI withAdam,calleda chariot. and had three:Pound, Williams, And therewas a D. H. Lawrence. And wheelon the chariot. missing and all ofa sudI had thatfeeling den therewithgreatresoundingwas and my own contemporaryOlson with "ProtectiveVerse." Well,thatsoundslikewhenI read "Projective Verse" and when I read Charles Olson's poetry it came like a lightand I immediately saw what it was. Here was the man who is goingto change me-not change,I didn'tchangeI to openup everything he's going am. And I'll tell you,it was a joyI had beenwriting ous experience. formorethantenyearsby poetry 1950,since '37 or so, and Charles to write was just beginning it,and He had written was just there. poas earlyas '47 or so! I metthe etry to manin '46,whenhe had a grant do work on the migration of people to our west coast, and in we talkedabout ourfirst meetings that and about my own concept that the disorder of our civilcoerization is the fundamental we all livein civedisorder whereby raisefood citiesand makefarmers Olson forus. Now,did I recognize is going to at once?Boy,thisstory
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