Comes Spake the Cuckoo

Ken Kesey: The Far Gone Interview

by Todd Brendan Fahey It was just another Saturday on Ken Kesey's farm, but it felt like Shangri-La. Some shavenheaded freak stood staring down from the rough-hewn stage, glassy-eyed and grinning through a musky amalgam of marijuana and pine, slapping a pair of spoons against his hest and thigh--a demented rhythm se tion in an unknown band, one of the do!ens to play in the moss-draped south-"# of a man uniformly known as $meri a's %irst &ippie. 'hile every op in (ugene stood poised on the roadside overlooking a ommer ial repla ement for the )rateful *ead's aborted late-$ugust doubleheader, the +u koo strode around his own eight a res, miles away, in a striped referee's shirt, signing autographs and posing reti ently for the ameras--an i on who, in the words of &unter ,hompson, -has found out a way to live out there where the real winds blow.$s the proud owner of a plane ti ket to .ortland, before /erry )ar ia's brief ollapse in $ugust of 0112 to thirty years of e3 ess, I felt I had but one honorable de ision4 56uy the ,i ket, ,ake the 7ide.' $nd so by 14## %riday evening, I had flown to (ugene and befriended a lo al bluegrass band with whom I hit hed a ride the ne3t morning to a rusti en ampment in nearby .leasant &ill. 6y noon, I had videotaped the infamous 6us from every on eivable angle, as it rested in all its brokedown splendor between a pair of *ouglas firs. 6y "4##, I was bearing witness to tree-people emerging from the hollow--a gentle, pa houli-s ented ra e, bound by dreadlo ks and sweet sativa. 6y 0#4"8, Ken Kesey took the stage, towering over the rowd like a redwood in a bayou of s rag-oak, to read from one of his hildren's books against an eerie 9orthwest sunset--an a tor who somehow never made it in &ollywood, and a living testament that -the Si3ties aren't over: they won't be over until the %at Lady gets high.INTERVIEW (By phone, September 13, 1992): Fahey: I interviewed Timothy eary a !o"ple wee#$ a%o over dinner, and he had $ome very #ind and heart&elt word$ to $ay abo"t yo"' and he wa$ al$o tal#in% abo"t what he $aw a$ the &"t"re o& in&ormation( )e &elt that the novel i$ a $omewhat ar!hai! art &orm, in that the brain !an ab$orb $o m"!h in&ormation $o rapidly( I wa$ wonderin% what yo" mi%ht thin# abo"t the &"t"re o& the novel( *e$ey: +hhm(((I a%ree( I have been $ayin, &or the &ew year$ that I,ve been wor#in% on thi$ novel -Sailor Song, *e$ey,$ &ir$t novel $in!e Sometimes a )reat 9otion, thirty year$ a%o.: it,$ a &la$h in the pan, a$ &ar a$ hi$tory %oe$, I thin#( Be!a"$e the $toryteller wa$ there to be%in with( )e "$ed the &ire, and he "$ed hi$ voi!e' he "$ed $hadow$ and mon$ter$, and he "$ed poetry and m"$i!( /nd all tho$e thin%$ wor#ed on the a"dien!e( 0hen yo" 1"$t %et into print, yo" red"!e the inp"t 2"ite a bit( B"t it ma#e$ &or a ni!e thin% to pa!#a%e and di$trib"te--li#e a bo3 o& tampon$( B"t I thin# that &or "$ to really deal with a yo"n% a"dien!e, we,re %oin% to have to pi!# "p the pa!e(

4l, eary,$ been $ayin% thi$ &orever, and I,ve alway$ a%reed with him( It,$ #ind o& li#e a !omp"l$ory in the 4lympi!$: every $o o&ten yo",ve %ot to write a novel to ma#e people pay attention to the other $t"&& yo",re doin,( I 1"$t !ame ba!# &rom a boo# to"r, in whi!h I had 5i#in% not 1"$t line me "p with boo#$tore$ where I wa$ 1"$t readin% and $i%nin% my boo#, b"t al$o line me "p with theater$ where I !o"ld per&orm my !hildren,$ $t"&&( It made a lot more $en$e' al$o, it wa$ a lot more !olor&"l( 0hen yo",re "p there with robe$ and ma$#$ and mon$ter$ and dan!e and dr"m$, the $tory %et$ "p o&& the pa%e and move$ aro"nd( Fahey: -6r"nt$ in a%reement(. *e$ey: 0hen Sha#e$peare wa$ writin%, he wa$n,t writin% &or $t"&& to lie on the pa%e' it wa$ $"ppo$ed to %et "p and move aro"nd( /nd I thin# that writer$ are %oin% to have to &a!e thi$' they were per&ormer$ ori%inally( That,$ what $toryteller$ did--they told a $tory( /nd the better they were at tellin% it, the more &amo"$ it be!ame( The 7hope$ were writer$ that moved &rom !a$tle to !a$tle( The word 87hope, 7-)-4-9-:,, mean$ 8$ee, too $ee, and be $een(, So yo" went &rom !a$tle to !a$tle and yo" told abo"t the !a$tle yo" 1"$t !ame &rom, and how bea"ti&"l the maiden$ were and how power&"l and manly the #ni%ht$ were( ;o" helped prop "p a yo"n% !ivili<ation: They !o"ldn,t have done it witho"t them( =ow, we,ve %ot ele!troni! mean$ to do that, $o yo" wo"ldn,t have to a!t"ally travel to !a$tle$( 7ome o"t o& that bo3, there, and addre$$ the a"dien!e( The whole >T5 a"dien!e, that is the new a"dien!e( /nd the people who are bein% p"ri$t$ and i%norin% that, are tho$e who are %oin% to be le&t behind( /$ ?ylan $ay$, 8it,$ a new road' i& yo" don,t li#e it, %et o"t o& the way(, Fahey: Timothy &elt that, in hi$tory, yo",d be a$ &amo"$ &or yo"r !omp"ter boo#, the +averns pie!e, a$ anythin% yo",ve ever done( *e$ey: That,$ the only time it,$ ever been done li#e that( /nd it,$ a pretty %ood little potboiler novel( Tim wa$ tryin% to have a thin% where a per$on with a !omp"ter !o"ld pl"% into that -+averns. and al$o add $t"&&, write $t"&& in( ;o",ve #ind o& %ot to have a love a&&air with !omp"ter$ that I,ve never had( )e,$ alway$ been plain in&at"ated with that te!hno $t"&&' where I,m more intere$ted in %nome$ and elve$ -la"%h$.( Fahey: 0hy did yo" de!ide to ma#e a $hi&t &rom the more obvio"$ &orm o& $hort $torie$ to !hildren,$ $torie$ in the mid-:i%htie$@ *e$ey: The a"dien!e wa$ a whole lot better( ;o" !an p"t the $ame me$$a%e in that #id,$ $tory and deliver it to 2"ite a lar%e a"dien!e, be!a"$e it,$ the bi% &ol#$ who b"y the boo#$, and they alway$ read the boo#$ be&ore they pa$$ them onto the #id$( /nd $o yo",re not only rea!hin% a new, yo"n% a"dien!e, yo",re rea!hin% yo"r $ame old a"dien!e( /nd the me$$a%e$ in my #id,$ $torie$ are the $ame me$$a%e in my novel$( Fahey: S"re( *e$ey: Totalitariani$m, and how yo" !an over!ome it( 0hi!h ta#e$ yo" ba!# to a lot o& old tri!#$ter $torie$ and $pider $torie$ &rom /&ri!a(

Fahey: $nimal %arm( *e$ey: +h-h"h( /nd mon#ey $torie$ &rom the 4rient( -9a"$e. B"t the new novel, the real new novel, ha$n,t been written yet( It will be written with a new type o& pen( I& Sha#e$peare were alive today, he wo"ldn,t be "$in% the 2"ill pen' he wo"ld at lea$t be "$in% at lea$t the 9entel rollin% writer, or $omethin%( ;o" "$e whatever i$ available d"rin% yo"r time( /nd the mo$t power&"l tool o& !ompo$ition we,ve %ot now i$ that !am!order( There,ll be #id$ who write a novel "$in% the !am!order a$ a pen' and the novel will $ell a$ tho"%h it,$ a novel, b"t yo",ll play it thro"%h yo"r video( Fahey: That,$ another thin% eary $aid' he $aid, he thin#$ that anyone writin% a novel the$e day$ $ho"ld have it hal& videoed( *e$ey: ;eah( In &a!t, I,m ta#in% +u koo's 9est and readin% +u koo's 9est into a video !amera, 1"$t $ittin% there-Fahey: Fanta$ti!( *e$ey: 5i#in% wanted me to do a re!ordin% &or an a"dio boo#( B"t when yo",re a!t"ally rai$in% yo"r &a!e "p and loo#in% into the !amera, a$ oppo$ed to 1"$t havin% a mi!rophone, yo" have a lot more pre$en!e( Thi$ i$ the new edition, thi$ ability to have yo"r &a!e pop o"t o& the $!reen( ,7a"$e a %ood $toryteller "$e$ hi$ &a!e a lot, "$e$ hi$ eye$( Fahey: et,$ %o ba!# to the very early Si3tie$, to 9erry ane( *e$ey: 4*, let,$ do -la"%h$.( Fahey: I,ve alway$ been !"rio"$ whether yo" had a $en$e o& bein% the role model, the leader(((hi$tory ha$ #ind o& prono"n!ed yo" the Father o& the 7o"nter!"lt"re( I wa$ wonderin% i& you tho"%ht o& yo"r$el& a$ that ba!# then, or i& that,$ been $omethin% %enero"$ly awarded to yo"( *e$ey: 4h, no( I don,t even thin# o& my$el& a$ that now( Fahey: B"t ba!#, then( Ba!# in tho$e heady time$ o& the B"$ trip and =eal 7a$$ady(((did yo" have a $en$e@ *e$ey: I really did have a $en$e that what we were doin% wa$ important, hi$tori!ally important, in a way that $till ha$n,t been "nder$tood or re!o%ni<ed( -pa"$e. The Si3tie$ aren,t over' they won,t be over "ntil the Fat ady %et$ high( ;o" thin# o& the $t"&& that !ame o"t o& the Si3tie$: the environmental movement, the &emini$t movement, the power o& the !ivil ri%ht$ movement' b"t mo$t o& all, it,$ the p$y!hedeli! movement that attempted to a!t"ally %o in and !han%e the !on$!io"$ne$$ o& the people, either ba!# to $omethin% more p"re and hone$t, or &orward to $omethin% never be&ore reali<ed, #nowin% that the pla!e$ we were in, the $tat"$ 2"o, wa$ a dead-end--a dead-end $pirit"ally and, a$ we are &indin% o"t, a dead-end e!onomi!ally( That $t"&& that happened in the Si3tie$, all o& "$ who were part o& it(((yo" !an tell when yo" brea# new %ro"nd( I& yo",re a &armer, yo" !an tell that thi$ $od ha$ never been bro#en be&ore,

the plow i$ layin% open %reat, p"rple earth and $omethin% !ome$ o"t o& it and yo" !an smell it( 0hen yo",re a writer, when I wa$ wor#in% on Sometimes a )reat 9otion, I !o"ld tell I wa$ brea#in% now %ro"nd' there,$ an ener%y that !ome$ o"t, that,$ probably not "nli#e the ener%y that !ome$ o"t o& n"!lear &i$$ion--It wa$n,t 1"$t me( It wa$ not anybody( It wa$n,t ro!# and roll' it wa$n,t art' it wa$n,t !inema or dan!e( Something was happening at that time, and it wa$ a wave that $ome o& "$ were able to $"r& on( /nd none o& "$ $tarted the wave' I don,t thin# there,$ any way yo" !o"ld $tart the wave( The wave i$ $till %oin%( /&ter thi$ re!ent to"r a!ro$$ the !o"ntry, I,ve r"n into people who I haven,t $een the li#e$ o& &or twenty year$: really intere$ted in $omethin% new, not 1"$t intere$ted in $o"nd-bite$( There,$ a new $erio"$ne$$, e$pe!ially amon%$t !olle%e #id$' they #now that all o& the$e $imple old homilie$ really are not important( I,ve been tellin% everyone that I,m mainly intere$ted in warrior$( Tim - eary. i$ a warrior( >o$t o& the people I r"n into are intere$ted in being warrior$( 0hen they read Tim eary, or when they %o to $ee a movie by, let,$ $ay, 6"$ 5an Sant, or when they %o to a ?ead !on!ert, they,re doin% it not 1"$t to be entertained' they,re doin% it be!a"$e they want to be!ome better warrior$( /nd we,ve had a real !ra!#er1a!# b"n!h o& warrior$( I mean, /llen 6in$ber% i$ a tremendo"$ warrior a$ time %oe$ by( )e,$ a warrior &ir$t and a poet $e!ond( There wa$ a time when he &or$oo# bein% a %reat poet, the &"t"re o& poetry, and be!ame a warrior( )e "$e$ hi$ poetry to be a warrior( /nd that,$ the $ame way I &eel abo"t my writin%: I,m m"!h more intere$ted in helpin% warrior$ #now more abo"t their ta$# than I am in 1"$t tryin% to titillate them with $torie$( AAA Fahey: ?id yo" ever meet Bobert )"nter when yo" were in the 5eteran,$ )o$pital e3periment$@ *e$ey: ;o" mean the ?ead,$-Fahey: The ?ead,$ lyri!i$t( 0a$ he in there at the $ame time yo" were@ *e$ey: +hhm(((yeah( I don,t remember meetin% him -&ade$.(((he and 6ar!ia didn,t live &ar &rom "$( There wa$ a pla!e !alled the 7hatea"' )"nter, I thin#, at that time roomed with 9hil e$h( /nd 6ar!ia wa$ at the $ame pla!e( 4h, yeah( I,ve #nown )"nter &or a lon% time( Fahey: )e,$ written $ome tremendo"$ poetry( *e$ey: ;eah, he ha$( )e wa$ "p here &or o"r Field Trip la$t Fall( ;o" #now, everybody thin#$ 6ar!ia wrote tho$e $on%$' it wa$ )"nter( )"nter doe$n,t per&orm or $in% m"!h, b"t he %ot o"t here and $"n%, and he !o"ldn,t remember the word$ to CBipple,C $o all the a"dien!e had to help him o"t -la"%h$.( /ll tho$e %reat dan!e $on%$' he,$ written $o many( )e,$ not a$ %ood a$ ?ylan, b"t he,$ ri%ht "p there( I $aw 6ar!ia ni%ht be&ore la$t down at 4a#land( I em!eed that $how -a"dible $mile.( It,$ li#e every ten year$, all the$e people have to %et to%ether to !he!# ea!h other o"t and $ee what we,re doin%( ,7a"$e we don,t $ee eno"%h o& ea!h other' we,re $pread too thin( It,$ really %ood

to %et ba!# to%ether with )"nter' e$pe!ially when yo" %et -the ?ead,$ $e!ond lyri!i$t, Dohn. Barlow( ;o" %et to tal# abo"t $t"&& that yo",ve forgotten( That,$ why it,$ %ood to $ee eary( eary !an %et a part o& my mind that,$ #ind o& r"$ted $h"t %rindin% a%ain, 1"$t by bein% aro"nd him and tal#in%, ,!a"$e that,$ where he wor#$( )e #now$ that area o& the mind and the brain, and he #now$ the di&&eren!e between the two area$( )e,$ a real ma$ter at %ettin% yo"r old wheel $2"ea#in% a%ain( Fahey: I,m readin% a 2"ote by yo"it wa$ a little in$ert in ;S$ 'eekend ba!# in D"ly -1992.( Bet$y 7layton ha$ yo" 2"oted a$ $ayin%, 8the )ai%ht i$ 1"$t a pla!e' the Si3tie$ wa$ a $pirit(, I,ve only been "p to yo"r pla!e on!e, b"t to me it $eemed li#e what the Si3tie$ were all abo"t( ?o yo" try to #eep that atmo$phere alive, or i$ yo"r pla!e a pretty normal pla!e mo$t o& the time and yo" 1"$t let loo$e on!e in a while@ *e$ey: =o, it,$ pretty m"!h the $ame all o& the time -$o&t !h"!#le.( It,$ nothin% that yo" have to try to #eep alive' it,ll live on it$ own( I thin# yo" have to #ill it( That #ind o& $pirit doe$n,t die nat"rally' yo" have to lo!# it "p in $ha!#le$ and &eed it lot$ o& red meat and browbeat it into death( It doe$n,t die o& it$ own a!!ord( 7hildren #eep it alive( The way the bird$ have been dr"n# today( /ll the %rape$ han%in% o"t there &ermentin%( /ll the bird$--a bea"ti&"l, $"nny day--the bird$ have been eatin% tho$e %rape$ and they,re dr"n# and teeterin% aro"nd and the robin$ are &allin% o&& the bran!he$ and reelin% aro"nd on the lawn, and the !hildren are paradin% aro"nd with their &all %arb, and it,$ alway$ there( It,$ alway$ anywhere( /ll yo" have to do i$ let it live( There,$ no e&&ort that need$ to be made to let it live' there,$ e&&ort that need$ to be made to #eep it &rom dyin%( Fahey: -St"nned. 4*(((0hat are yo"r !reative plan$ a&ter Sailor Song, be$ide$ the videotapin% o& +u koo's 9est@ 7an yo" let "$ in on $ome $e!ret$@ *e$ey: a$t ni%ht we %ot o"t there and we $et o&& o"r bi% bon&ire, and I had all my $ea mon$ter$ dan!e and !avort aro"nd the &ire( Thi$ i$ part o& the movie that 6"$ 5an Sant $hot, ,he Sea Lion( 6"$ i$, ri%ht now, involved in doin% (ven +owgirls )et the 6lues( Fahey: 4h yeah, Tom Bobbin$( *e$ey: +h-h"h( /nd a$ $oon a$ he,$ done with that, we,ll %et into editin% the &oota%e that he $hot o& ,he Sea Lion( /nd then I,ll try to brin% the ?ead in to do the $o"ndtra!# &or thi$, li#e they promi$ed ten year$ a%o( Thi$ i$ the thin% I,m mo$t intere$ted in--to move a #ind o& 0a%nerian drama into the$e ro!# and roll ven"e$, $o that it,$ not 1"$t playin% C+n!le Dohn,$ BandC -la"%h$. over and over a%ain( /nd whenever I %et to%ether and tal# with the %"y$ -the ?ead. abo"t it, oh, they,re 1"$t $o ea%er( B"t they %o vehement that they have to move to do it( It,$ $o !"mber$ome' it,$ hard &or them to do it( They,re almo$t r"n by their ma!hinery( B"t that,$ the thin% I,m mo$t intere$ted in: per&ormin% a bi% ro!# and roll opera, where we move tho$e ol, $!rabbly-loo#in, m"$i!ian$ down there in the pit where they belon%, and p"t dan!er$ and $in%er$ and ma%i!ian$ on the $ta%e, and have that broad!a$t to large n"mber$ o& people, ten-, twenty-, thirty-tho"$and people( /nd do it with video enhan!ement$, $o that yo" are able to $ee &a!e$ "p there(

The people who have thi$ e2"ipment, they #eep ma#in% the mi$ta#e o& thin#in% that yo" !an endle$$ly wat!h 6ar!ia,$ hand r"n "p and down that #eyboard -$i!., b"t that i$n,t anymore intere$tin% than wat!hin% Ba!hmanino&&,$ hand r"n "p and down the #eyboard( 9eople want to $ee drama' they want to have a $tory told to them( They want to be part o& $ome #ind o& be%innin%, middle and end that they !an relate to, the $ame way a$ the tribe !an relate the $tory abo"t %oin% o"t and #illin% the deer and evo#in% the deer $pirit, and rai$in% the $pirit$ o& the tribe with the blood o& the deer( That $t"&& $till ha$ %reat poten!y( /nd when yo",re aro"nd the whole ?ead $!ene, li#e I wa$ on )alloween, and yo" $ee o"t there in the par#in% lot a$ many people a$ are in$ide, they,re there a$ a tribal thin%' they,re there a$ part o& a rende<vo"$ and a pow-wow( /nd all it la!#$ i$ that $tory( The only thin% that ha$ happened li#e it, that I,ve ever $een, i$ ,ommy( I %"e$$ ,he 'all wa$ $omethin% on the order o& thi$, b"t I didn,t $ee ,he 'all( /nd I #now the ?ead are !apable o& it, and I #now the a"dien!e i$ ready &or it( /nd it,$ what I,m mo$t intere$ted in( AAA Fahey: 4ne la$t 2"e$tion: I $aw the interview with yo" and Bob 7o$ta$, and he wa$ a$#in% why yo" did !ertain thin%$ that yo",ve done thro"%ho"t yo"r li&e, and yo" $aid be!a"$e yo",re an /meri!an' and that a$ /meri!an$, we,re $ear!her$ and pioneer$( /nd I wa$ wonderin% what &rontier$ are there le&t &or *en *e$ey to e3plore@ *e$ey: +hhm(((the &rontier$ that we bro#e into in the Si3tie$ are $till lar%ely "ne3plored( 0hen I wa$ doin% tho$e e3periment$ at the 5et,$ )o$pital, they %ave "$ an enormo"$ array o& dr"%$, and they %ave "$ an enormo"$ array o& te$t$( They te$ted o"r motor $#ill$, o"r memorie$, o"r ability to !reate, to ima%ine, they te$ted o"r "rine and o"r blood--all the re$"lt$ o& tho$e te$t$ $till e3i$t $omewhere( For tho$e to be valid e3periment$, we need to &ollow "p on that--to $ee i& o"r brain$ have deteriorated, to $ee i& there,$ been any dama%e li#e they !laimed( 0hen we &ir$t bro#e into that &orbidden bo3 in the other dimen$ion, we #new that we had di$!overed $omethin% a$ $"rpri$in% and power&"l a$ the =ew 0orld when 7ol"mb"$ !ame $t"mblin% onto it( It i$ $till lar%ely "ne3plored and "n!harted( 9eople li#e eary have done the be$t they !an to !hart it $ort o& "nder%ro"nd, b"t the %overnment and the power$ do not want thi$ world !harted, be!a"$e it threaten$ e$tabli$hed power$( It alway$ ha$( 9eople don,t want other people to %et hi%h, be!a"$e i& yo" %et hi%h, yo" mi%ht $ee the &al$ity o& the &abri! o& the $o!iety we live in( -pa"$e. 0e tho"%ht that by thi$ time that there wo"ld be S? %iven in !la$$e$ in !olle%e( /nd yo" wo"ld $t"dy &or it and prepare &or it, yo" wo"ld have $omebody there who help yo" thro"%h it' yo" wo"ld #now what to $in%, where to be, how to $tand o"t amon% the tree$( 0e were naive( 0e tho"%ht that we had !ome to a new pla!e, a new, e3!itin%, &ree pla!e' and that it wa$ %oin% to be available to all /meri!a( /nd they shut it down( 9eople a$#, 8what happen to yo" %"y$@, /nd I alway$ tell them, 8we %ot arrested(, D"$t everybody I #now %ot arre$ted and had to $erve time( Fahey: B"t yo" %ot arre$ted &or pot tho"%h' it wa$n,t S?(

*e$ey: ;eah, b"t it doe$n,t ma#e any differen e on!e yo",re arre$ted( The &a!t that they,re beatin% on Bodney *in%--it didn,t matter what they were beatin% on him &or' they were beatin% on him( /nd it meant that a lot o& thi$ $t"&& had to %o way "nder%ro"nd( /nd other dr"%$ $pr"n% "p( I,ve never $een !ra!# or a lot o& the$e new dr"%$( ?on,t #now anythin% abo"t them( I don,t #now what they do &or yo", or whether they do anythin% %ood &or yo" or not( B"t I do $till have a lot o& &aith in the $pirit"al p"rity o& S? and pot( /nd I thin# that i& %ra$$ were le%ali<ed, it wo"ld help o"r dr"% problem enormo"$ly( /$ Dohn >adden $aid, 8There,ve been a lot more people h"rt on a$tro-t"r& than %ra$$(, - a"%hter on both $ide$. Fahey: ?o yo" thin# that a$ lon% a$ S? i$ ille%al, the yo"th today will e3perien!e any o& the $ame modi!"m o& &reedom that yo" had in the early Si3tie$@ *e$ey: =o, I don,t( For one thin%, all the$e people that were ta#in% the$e dr"%$ ba!# then were !olle%e a%e' and we had all read a !ertain amo"nt o& 4riental literat"re, and we had read )e$$e, and we had a $pirit"al "nderpinnin% o& #nowin% the Bible and #nowin% the Bha%avad 6ita, #nowin% the D"deo tradition$( /nd that %ive$ yo" $tar$ to $ail by( /nd witho"t tho$e $tar$, 1"$t thrown into !hao$, a lot o& people are lo$t( "!#ily, we,ve $till %ot $ome old mariner$ aro"nd, li#e Tim eary, who #eep dolin% o"t eno"%h !l"e$ that the$e young mariner$ #eep a&loat(

AAA

Ken Kesey
Ken Kesey's novels included One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, Sometimes a Great Notion and Sailor Song. He also wrote many short stories, magazine articles and editorial pieces. His life experiences helped to serve as a link between the Beat eneration and the growth of the hippie movement. ! graduate of the "niversity of #regon, Kesey moved to the Bay !rea in the late '$%s, and later took part in a uni&ue series of drug experiments sponsored by the "nited 'tates government. (rom these antiseptic experiences, Kesey and his band of )erry *ranksters initiated the !cid +ests, complete with ,'-, swirling colors, free.form performance art and music from bands like the rateful -ead. /n his last years, Kesey continued the trip with the release of archival footage from his groundbreaking adventures. Ken Kesey passed away 'aturday, 0ovember 1%, 2%%1 at the age of 33. He will be fondly remembered and sorely missed.
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Digital Interviews: How did you develop an interest in writing?

Ken Kesey: / used to do magic shows. / really loved doing small tricks up on stage, in high school doing big tricks, and finally, my brother and / traveling around the state doing different kinds of shows. 8hen / went to college, / continued to delve into performance art. / was writing the stuff that / was doing, and finally, / was 9ust writing. 'ince then, / ve come out of it. /m getting back to doing as well as writing. DI: Tell us about Perry Lane, where you lived while attending Stanford graduate s hool! KK: /t was the beginning of a complete, different movement for me. /t changed my writing enormously. "p until then, / had been involved in writing what would be thought of as a conventional book. Being out on *erry ,ane, trying all these various drugs, being with people that were, almost all of them, grad students, with the exception of a lot of teenagers who were around. (inally, / was using magic in my work. DI: "ere you fa#iliar with the beat poets at that ti#e? KK: Before / ever left the "niversity of #regon, / had this record of :,awrence; (erlinghetti, :Kenneth; <exroth and :!llen; insberg reading beat poetry. 8e used to play it out of our loudspeaker system over at the Beta house. ,ots of people were into it. /t was so new that it was really involved. !ll of the class, even the people that were down on it, were listening to it and had a lot to say about it. / can remember driving down to 0orth Beach with my folks and seeing Bob Kaufman out there on the street. / didnt know he was Bob Kaufman at the time. He had little pieces of Band.!id tape all over his face, about two inches wide, and little smaller ones like two inches long .. and all of them made into crosses. He came up to the cars, and he was babbling poetry into these cars. He came up to the car / was riding in, and my folks, and started 9abbering this stuff into the car. / knew that this was exceptional use of the human voice and the human mind. DI: How did you get involved in the drug$testing e%peri#ents at Stanford? KK: #ne of our neighbors at *erry ,ane, =ic ,ovell, asked me if / wanted to do it, and / said, 'ure. / went in every +uesday. / think / got paid twenty dollars a day. +hey ran me through all of the known drugs at that time .. eight or ten. / knew that some of them were going to be bad. / d been told that. )an, you dont want to give anybody a bad drug, no matter how much you want to know about it. /f youre interested in it, take it yourself. But to give somebody a bad drug, it s a real mistake. 8hen / could feel that it was going that direction, / would gag myself, and get out of me as much as / could. DI: &ut LSD didnt affe t you badly? KK: 0o. /n fact, / never really had a bad trip until way after that. 0obody had a bad trip until way after that. /t was 9ust experimentation. >ou were trying to find out who was doing what, and what it was like. / was reading stuff from everybody who had written about it, about ,'- and psilocybin .. and mescaline and peyote, which are two different drugs. )escaline is the synthesized version, and peyote has a lot of other ingredients in it. /t makes you sick, but being sick is important to it. !lso, you don t get near as high. >ou can eat a lot of peyote and not get near as high as you can on one capsule of mescaline. DI: How were you able to get the LSD fro# the e%peri#ental setting to your friends and asso iates outside the hospital? KK: / was connected to the =! hospital. =ic ,ovell was working over there as a student of some kind, and when the drug experiment started, they set up a version of the =! hospital in *alo !lto. / went over and applied for a 9ob, and a week or so later had a 9ob. +hey put me on the same ward with the doctor thatd given me those early pills. He was not doing his experimentation anymore? he had &uickly learned that this could be a real problem for the !merican government. #ne night, / came back in with my keys and went into his room, into his desk, and took out a lot of stuff. +hat was the source of most of our .. all of our drugs .. for a long time.

DI: Thats a ni e des'! (laughs) KK: >eah, it was. / went right down to it, and there was this stuff all labeled. / already knew a bunch of it. / could see he wasnt using it, and it was going to waste, getting old in there. 'o / liberated it. :laughs; DI: It #ust have been ni e to give it the new setting! KK: +he first time you take any of those drugs, especially if you ve never been drunk even, you dont think of it as taking a drug. >ou think, +his is an experiment thats going on with the "nited 'tates government. 8e didnt know about the @/! and the (B/s connection with it until years later. insberg always claimed so, but we didnt know it until it had been closed up for A% years. 8e were experimenting with it in a controlled system. /t was only after we d done it a while in the hospital .. all the people that / knew had gone in there and been part of these experiments .. it was important for us to take them outside, where you had more to react to. DI: "hat was the layout of the hospital setting? "as there any e%peri#entation with visuals or sound? KK: 0o, this was a ward. !ll the other people in it were nuts. / went out and looked through the window, a little, tiny window, and the door there with a heavy, heavy screen between two panes of glass. +here was no way to break out. >ou could barely see out through it. / d look out there and see these people moving around, and / could understand them a whole lot better than / could understand the doctors and the nurses, or the interns .. and they knew this. +hey would come in and look at me in there, and /d look at them through this little window. /t was a regular ward, and there were about a hundred people on the ward. DI: "ould it be fair to say that this was all ontributing to One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest? KK: =ery much. 8hen / went to work there, / started writing on it immediately. DI: Theres a so ietal onfrontation going on within the boo'*s hospital! KK: <ight. +here was that theme, naturally, but it went deeper than that. /t was about people dealing with the forces that / had 9ust thought were sort of fictional. 8hen you run into these forces and these entities .. real things that influence you .. pretty soon you have to give them due. >ou have to go ahead and figure out which of these are good entities and which are bad entities. (or a long time, / didnt run into any bad entities. +he bad entities were, sort of, good, not too strong forces, influenced by people who had problems, and they eventually loaded those drugs with problems. 0obody / ever knew had a bad trip until we moved back up here after 'tanford. / was living over here by the river, and we gave a bunch of people some )*1B. #ne girl began to have a bad time, and it was 9ust contagious? the more we were around her, the more we were dealing with her, the more we were having her bad time. / think thats what happened to a lot of people that were pretty sound. >ou can get through about anything if youre sound, but if youre really trying to empathize and deal with somebody whos gone crazy on a drug, pretty soon you go crazy on the drug. DI: In addition to the hospital so iety of Cuckoos Nest, you reveal so#e pier ing #essages regarding the so iety of the +regon town in Sometimes a Great Notion! KK: #h, very much, and much more so than / realized at the time. /ve gone back and re.read parts of Great Notion. ! lot of it came from the fact that / was staying up 2% or A% hours at a run. / d write a piece, and / could see that, /f / change this back here, itll change this up there. / began to do this scissor techni&ue, having things happen to me in the present and things happen to me in the past or the future, and have them all there at the same time. 8hen / finished it, / knew that / was finished with that form, but / went on to work on this same form in other ways. / ve written a lot since then, but /ve known when / started out on it, it was not going to be as good as Great Notion. +here are times when you are able to do stuff that is just right for your years and your experience, and /ve always known that that was the best / was going to be at writing.

DI: Tell us about the , id Tests! KK: /t was a continuation of the same experiments that the doctors had started a long time ago. 8e were carrying them out, leaving the surroundings open to see what would happen. / remember this girl named Bubbles that we got to know. 'hed take a lot of acid. 8e were in *alo !lto, the *alo !lto !cid +est, and she got out in the middle of the dance floor and discovered her shadow on the floor there. 'he began to dance to her shadow. +his big, really good.looking black guy, also really high, got over on the drums, and he began to react to her reactions to the shadow. /t went on for A% or B% minutes, and it was 9ust exceptional. Cverybody was standing there watching her reacting to the shadow, having good feelings about the shadow and bad feelings, and him reflecting this in his drumming, and the -ead and everybody else 9ust stood around and watched this one thing happen. !nd it was exceptional. DI: -oure thin'ing, The do tors at the lini would never understand this! (laughs) KK: +here were times when / would run into the doctors again and talk to them about this, and they said, 0o, no, thats why we got out of it. +hey realized that this was about a consciousness that they were not able to dig into and still be doctors. DI: How did you #eet .eal /assady? KK: / remember really clearly when he drove into the yard. 8e were over there in *erry ,ane, and he came into that yard and he was out of that car. /t was a Deep, and he was out of that Deep, and in and out, and taking the wheels off before / could get there, 9ust talking like mad, and explaining what was going on, and explaining who he was. !nd / knew that he had been around and been coming by, and when we met there, he was already out taking the tires off to fix the brakes, because there were no brakes, and he had to fix these brakes. !nd he was wanting to know if / could go and get him some stuff. :laughs; <ight away he was in charge. /n all of our bus trips, he was in charge of driving the bus. 8here the bus went, and what we did on the way there, was another person s 9ob, but he rode along and he never really tried to take it to a place that he had to go. He was with us and he was the best driver in the world. DI: 0ven as a leader he was still following? KK: >eah, he was a driver. +he driver doesnt usually know for sure where hes going. 8hen you get to a crucial part in your drive, its sometimes a whole lot better to have somebody else tell you, +urn here, than it is to go ahead and try to look at the map and stuff. DI: ,fter the bus trips and the , id Tests, you #oved ba ' to +regon! KK: 8hen we came to #regon, everybody that / knew who was really in on what was happening came with us. +his was a place to go and lay back a while, and then take it easy and reflect on what we d been doing, and continue. 8e were working as hard as we could with film and tape. 8e were trying to get the *rankster film out, but more than that, we were still involved in filming and taping what was going on .. and have never stopped. DI: How did your view of LSD and the related ulture differ fro# Ti#othy Leary s view? KK: / could see that the doctors in the profession would end up with this drug, and all these drugs, and keep it involved in their perspective fields. / didn t really feel like that was 9ust. / didnt feel like it was 9ust for the drug, and / didnt feel like it was 9ust for the people. !s time went by, ,eary and :<ichard; !lpert and all those people at )illbrook have come around to the same thinking. +his is too new to hold it to a small group of people, because that small group of people can bend it and turn it to their advantage, even if theyre not trying to. 8e started getting these drugs from other places than that doctors office. *eople started manufacturing them, and we were out trying these new chemicals, trying them in the streets and at concerts and in our work. 8e found that it increased our spiritual awareness, and it definitel increased our awareness of nature. /ve never felt bad about either the drugs that / got out of the doctors desk or that stuff that we began to order, because most

of the stuff we ordered for a long time was from 'andoz. 8e didn t run into any homemade drugs for a long time. >ou know, you can trust 'andoz to give you the best. +hey re not going to turn out some kind of rinky.dink, half.acid and half.something.else. Because you get down into dealing with ,'-, which is 9ust a pinprick in size, 9ust the tiniest size of stuff, you realize that any deviation from that at all could really affect how youre dealing with yourself and how youre dealing with the experience. DI: In the 12s and 32s, you wrote several short pie es about the deaths of 4ohn Lennon, .eal /assady and your son 4ed! KK: /t was what was happening. !nd theres drugs involved in all of that, but the drugs aren t the foremost thing thats happening. /ts things that are going on between us as people, and the drugs are influencing it, but theyre not producing it like they were when we were first into it. DI: Is it diffi ult to write about those things? Is that a release for you? KK: / dont ever think of it like that. DI: Its not a release? KK: 0or is it really difficult. 8hen you come across something that reall affects you, and you sit down and write about it, it comes out because youve already gone through the agony. /t comes out almost effortlessly. / think a lot of writers find this to be true. ! lot of writers write about death, the death of somebody whos close to them .. trying to work their way through it in their mind, and at the same time trying to change your mind about it. /f anything, my mind is changed a good deal more since those things than it changed before those things. #h, it s easy to slip off into a natural sort of way of thinking, #kay, that meant a lot, but were finished with that. / dont think that /m finished with any of this stuff. 8ere still working at it as hard as we can. Bringing out the films from 153B is in terms of the present, even more than it is in terms of the past. 8e re looking at something as we see it from the present. / did try to do it when we finished with a lot of the shooting, but it was 9ust too hard. !lso, / didnt really know enough about what was going on to really legitimately get out there and try to explain it as though, +his is the end of it. / can give examples of it, but to explain it, /m not sure that /m ready to do that even yet. DI: In the 52s you wrote The Further Inquiry! "as that the start of the pro ess publi ly? KK: 8ell, yeah. /t was a hope to come up with a script that we could film down at the house, because a lot of people were still into that period of time. / knew that the people who were dead would have to have other things represent them. 8e were going to film it, and / didn t think of it as a book for &uite a while. +he film didnt happen, and so the book stands on its own. /ve got six or eight pieces that are still important to what /m doing. / want to finish those as best as possible, if / can 9ust pry a little place open in what /m doing now. /ts tricky to do, because what youre doing becomes who you are, and /m a little tired of being who / am. :laughs; DI: -ou also published Sailor Song! 0veryone said, Thats the long awaited third novel! "as it? KK: 0o. / never have put it in the category of Cuckoos Nest and Great Notion. >eah, / know better. DI: Then you wrote Last Go Round with Ken &abbs! Tell us a little about that boo'! KK: /ts about a rodeo that happens in *endleton, #regon, every 'eptember. /t s 9ust removed from everything .. theres no other town close .. and this rodeos been going on since 1511. / wrote a thing about the first rodeo, from the point of view of one of the guys who was the third runner.up of the three rodeo clowns, rodeo riders. His names 'pain and hes from the 'outh. +he two older guys are a black guy named eorge (letcher and an /ndian named Dackson 'undown. +he three of them were tied at the end of the three.day rodeo, and they have a very famous last go.round. !nd the horse that won is in the *endleton )useum there, mounted. / don t mean hes got somebody on

him? / mean hes dead and stuffed with stuff. :laughs; 8hen you go back there, *endleton is still appreciative of that scene. /ts remarkable to go back there. /ts almost the same. +he photographs are better than they were back then, but these are still tribes of /ndians coming in to dance, and cowboys coming in from everywhere to ride. +hat book got written because / d written a screenplay, and people wanted to change the screenplay too much. / went ahead and worked it into a book, and Babbs wrote some scenes. 8e worked really hard on it together. /t s the best of my kind of work from a fictional point of view. /ts meant to be fictional, because / add people to it and / add scenes that can only be fiction. / make a point of that as / m going through. DI: -ouve re ently gotten a new bus ba ' out on the road! "here is the original bus now? KK: +he first bus is down in a swamp near our place. / always forget that when / talk about the bus. /ts like the /ntrepid? that was a British man.of.war, and it was a 8orld 8ar / vessel, and then it was a 8orld 8ar // aircraft carrier. But its the same name, and people think of it as the same spaceship, even though it changes places and gets fixed up. 8hole new spaceships come into being, and theyre all the /ntrepid. +his is the way / think of the bus .. it s uni&ue, its by itself, no matter how you construct it. DI: -our latest pro6e t is releasing the first tapes of the original bus trip! KK: 8eve done the first episode, and that gets us to 0ew #rleans. 8e re 9ust about finished with episode two, the 9ourney from 0ew #rleans north to )anhattan. Cpisode three will be at )illbrook to meet ,eary and -ick !lpert, and the whole scene there. DI: -ou have a very uni7ue honor syste# for your pur hasers! They tell you what they want, you send it out, and then they pay you! KK: 8ell, that was the way it used to be when we were kids. 8e would get a catalog from )ontgomery 8ard, and wed go through it and order stuff. +hey would send us the stuff, and then we would send them the payment. >ou didnt send it beforehand? you waited a number of weeks until you got it, and when you got it, if you didn t like it, you sent it back. !lmost all the stuff everybody kept. /t was a marvelous system in which the weight of the proof was on the seller instead of on the buyer. DI: -our pa 'ages are very hand#ade! -ou ould easily have a o#pany shoot these things out, but youre doing everything $$ fro# the labeling of the tapes to the painting of the bo%es! KK: 8e get letters from people .. 9ust marvelous letters .. wanting to order, and they re so excited about the fact that weve finally got some of this stuff done. +hen, once it goes out there, we get tremendous letters back from them, having seen it, and theyre sending us the money right away, and thats a whole lot more important than money. +he connection between us and those people is reall remarkable and wonderful. DI: ,t the ti#e you were fil#ing, you didnt have the te hnology to put everything together? KK: +here definitely was a mechanical thing. +hat helps a lot .. knowing that mechanical business. 8e tried a lot and werent successful at it. /t 9ust was too hard. 0ow we ve got it down to video. 8ere able to capture the visuals and the sound, and ad9ust the sound s length, so itll put the words in the mouth of the person thats speaking them. +hats a remarkable thing for us. 8orking with tapes and film, you play a tape and film and try to catch it. *retty soon the words are off a bunch. +hen you have to go back and re.ad9ust that tape, and then the words are off a bunch again. 8e ve done a lot of stuff without the sound and lips working together, and it s been effective for little pieces. But for a large piece, the more stuff that we can have coming out of the mouth of the person, it s 9ust so much better. >ou know, were coming near the end of our run. )aybe five, ten, 1$ years is all weve got left, and weve got so much to do. 'o much stuff to go back through and make available. DI: How #u h raw #aterial do you have?

KK: 8alls and walls of material. 8e filmed or taped everything. )ost of it will never make it to an audience. +o go through all of it and lip.synch it .. we don t do that well until 155%, when were working with +=. 8hich is fine, because the stuff that we re doing, its better on += than it is on the big screen. /ts more personal, and the people who see it don t see it as a movie. /t works a whole lot better this way. 'o, we can turn out an hour, hour and a half tape regularly now and, hopefully, have ourselves a rendezvous with it as were checking out. DI: "ill we see future novels? KK: /ve got one book that was at =iking. /t should have been published two years ago, but my editor got fired, so that book is down at the house. / withdrew it. / ve got another long novel completed .. / havent gone back through it and reworked it. +hen weve got a bunch of other stuff that /ve written and needs to come out, because if it doesn t come out, somebody will go back through and put it all out in a bowl, and / 9ust want to put out little pieces of it in the bowl. :Crnest; Hemingway s last book, The Garden of !den .. its an embarrassment. Hemingway wrote it in 15A5. /t was about men and women, and theyre beginning to show cross.dressing. +he woman is wearing pants and shorter hair, and the man is running around in his bathing suit and longer hair. +hat s interesting in 15A5, but now its something that would embarrass the hell out of Hemingway. / think it does, all the time. His spirit keeps saying, 0o, no, dont publish thatE / havent fixed it. /ve not gone through it. / think a lot of the work ahead of me is going through and seeing what works and what doesn t. /m not interested in 9ust turning everything over to somebody. /t s like saying, Heres a cake, and 9ust shove over all this flour and sugar and stuff. /t s not a cake. /ts not a cake until its been baked and ready to serve. DI: "ho are so#e of your favorite authors, past or present? KK: 8ell, theres :8illiam; Burroughs, :Dack; Kerouac, :Dohn; 'teinbeck, Hemingway .. but, by far, its :8illiam; (aulkner. (aulkner includes everything /ve ever done, him being about as wiped out as / have been when /ve written some stuff. >ou can go back to any piece of (aulkner and open it up and begin to read it, and it works. >ou dont know where it comes about in his scheme of things? youll see one story done by him at one time, and then the same story done by him at another time, where he is looking from a different point of view, getting a different look at stuff. +his is my favorite writer, by far. DI: "hat advi e would you give to a young author? KK: !dvice to a young author nowadays .. itd be hard to make. / really dont know what / would tell them, because / think the whole publishing world is in a real state of flux. /t won t be long before youll buy your book off the /nternet. >oull go through and read something by somebody and youll say, +hats good. 'end me that. +heyll print it out to you. /tll save us from having to ship all these big boxes of pulp back and forth. /t s one of the things that /m, kind of, hanging back on. /td be really easy to put a thing on that computer that would sell a book, and you d be able to download the book in a night. >oud come in, and there would be a big pile of paper. /t makes more sense. +he whole notion of publishing houses and publishing companies, it s an insult in a way. !ll writers have felt this. /ve always been really happy with =iking, but /m not part of the world that they want to publish. DI: -ouve always been good at reating your own uni7ue pla e in the world, though! KK: 8ell, thats important. !nd its hard to convince people that it is important. But, boy, it s as important a thing as you can get now. *eople are sending pieces of novels. / think they ought to be read by somebody who can read them and say, Hey, heres something really good. )y editor, this was kind of where he was working, and hes a real" real good editor. Hes willing to devote as much time and effort as you can possibly expect from a person. He was Burroughs editor, and he does the !nn @harters Kerouac books. Hes done important books, and hes continuing to try to do important books, but there was something about him and =iking, who sold off to *enguin, who sold off to *utnam. /ts happening that way .. these big houses are getting bigger by buying more houses, but pretty soon theyre going to find theyve got more houses than theyve got readers. 8hen

somebody comes up with a really good book, you can put it up on the computer and sell it that way, and / think itll be healthy for the writing system. FFF