The Republic

By Plato Written 360 B.C.E Translated by Benjamin Jowett Table of Contents

Book V
Socrates - !"#C$% - "&E'("%T#S S)c* is t*e +ood and tr)e City or State, and t*e +ood and man is of t*e same -attern. and if t*is is ri+*t e/ery ot*er is wron+. and t*e e/il is one w*ic* affects not only t*e orderin+ of t*e State, b)t also t*e re+)lation of t*e indi/id)al so)l, and is e0*ibited in fo)r forms. W*at are t*ey1 *e said. ' was -roceedin+ to tell t*e order in w*ic* t*e fo)r e/il forms a--eared to me to s)cceed one anot*er, w*en Pole marc*)s, w*o was sittin+ a little way off, j)st beyond "deimant)s, be+an to w*is-er to *im2 stretc*in+ fort* *is *and, *e too3 *old of t*e )--er -art of *is coat by t*e s*o)lder, and drew *im towards *im, leanin+ forward *imself so as to be 4)ite close and sayin+ somet*in+ in *is ear, of w*ic* ' only ca)+*t t*e words, 5S*all we let *im off, or w*at s*all we do1 Certainly not, said "deimant)s, raisin+ *is /oice. W*o is it, ' said, w*om yo) are ref)sin+ to let off1 6o), *e said. ' re-eated, W*y am ' es-ecially not to be let off1 W*y, *e said, we t*in3 t*at yo) are la7y, and mean to c*eat )s o)t of a w*ole c*a-ter w*ic* is a /ery im-ortant -art of t*e story. and yo) fancy t*at we s*all not notice yo)r airy way of -roceedin+. as if it were self-e/ident to e/erybody, t*at in t*e matter of women and c*ildren 5friends *a/e all t*in+s in common.5 "nd was ' not ri+*t, "deimant)s1 6es, *e said. b)t w*at is ri+*t in t*is -artic)lar case, li3e e/eryt*in+ else, re4)ires to be e0-lained. for comm)nity may be of many 3inds. Please, t*erefore, to say w*at sort of comm)nity yo) mean. We *a/e been lon+ e0-ectin+ t*at yo) wo)ld tell )s somet*in+ abo)t t*e family life of yo)r citi7ens --*ow t*ey will brin+ c*ildren into t*e world, and rear t*em w*en t*ey *a/e arri/ed, and, in +eneral, w*at is t*e nat)re of t*is comm)nity of women and c*ildren-for we are of o-inion t*at t*e ri+*t or wron+ mana+ement of s)c* matters will *a/e a +reat and -aramo)nt infl)ence on t*e State for +ood or for e/il. "nd now, since t*e 4)estion is still )ndetermined, and yo) are ta3in+ in *and anot*er State, we *a/e resol/ed, as yo) *eard, not to let yo) +o )ntil yo) +i/e an acco)nt of all t*is. To t*at resol)tion, said la)con, yo) may re+ard me as sayin+ "+reed. Socrates - "&E'("%T#S - !"#C$% - T89"S6("C8#S "nd wit*o)t more ado, said T*rasymac*)s, yo) may consider )s all to be e4)ally a+reed.

' said, 6o) 3now not w*at yo) are doin+ in t*)s assailin+ me2 W*at an ar+)ment are yo) raisin+ abo)t t*e State: J)st as ' t*o)+*t t*at ' *ad finis*ed, and was only too +lad t*at ' *ad laid t*is 4)estion to slee-, and was reflectin+ *ow fort)nate ' was in yo)r acce-tance of w*at ' t*en said, yo) as3 me to be+in a+ain at t*e /ery fo)ndation, i+norant of w*at a *ornet5s nest of words yo) are stirrin+. %ow ' foresaw t*is +at*erin+ tro)ble, and a/oided it. ;or w*at -)r-ose do yo) concei/e t*at we *a/e come *ere, said T*rasymac*)s, --to loo3 for +old, or to *ear disco)rse1 6es, b)t disco)rse s*o)ld *a/e a limit. 6es, Socrates, said la)con, and t*e w*ole of life is t*e only limit w*ic* wise men assi+n to t*e *earin+ of s)c* disco)rses. B)t ne/er mind abo)t )s. ta3e *eart yo)rself and answer t*e 4)estion in yo)r own way2 W*at sort of comm)nity of women and c*ildren is t*is w*ic* is to -re/ail amon+ o)r +)ardians1 and *ow s*all we mana+e t*e -eriod between birt* and ed)cation, w*ic* seems to re4)ire t*e +reatest care1 Tell )s *ow t*ese t*in+s will be. 6es, my sim-le friend, b)t t*e answer is t*e re/erse of easy. many more do)bts arise abo)t t*is t*an abo)t o)r -re/io)s concl)sions. ;or t*e -racticability of w*at is said may be do)bted. and loo3ed at in anot*er -oint of /iew, w*et*er t*e sc*eme, if e/er so -racticable, wo)ld be for t*e best, is also do)btf)l. 8ence ' feel a rel)ctance to a--roac* t*e s)bject, lest o)r as-iration, my dear friend, s*o)ld t)rn o)t to be a dream only. ;ear not, *e re-lied, for yo)r a)dience will not be *ard )-on yo). t*ey are not sce-tical or *ostile. ' said2 (y +ood friend, ' s)--ose t*at yo) mean to enco)ra+e me by t*ese words. 6es, *e said. T*en let me tell yo) t*at yo) are doin+ j)st t*e re/erse. t*e enco)ra+ement w*ic* yo) offer wo)ld *a/e been all /ery well *ad ' myself belie/ed t*at ' 3new w*at ' was tal3in+ abo)t2 to declare t*e tr)t* abo)t matters of *i+* interest w*ic* a man *ono)rs and lo/es amon+ wise men w*o lo/e *im need occasion no fear or falterin+ in *is mind. b)t to carry on an ar+)ment w*en yo) are yo)rself only a *esitatin+ en4)irer, w*ic* is my condition, is a dan+ero)s and sli--ery t*in+. and t*e dan+er is not t*at ' s*all be la)+*ed at <of w*ic* t*e fear wo)ld be c*ildis*=, b)t t*at ' s*all miss t*e tr)t* w*ere ' *a/e most need to be s)re of my footin+, and dra+ my friends after me in my fall. "nd ' -ray %emesis not to /isit )-on me t*e words w*ic* ' am +oin+ to )tter. ;or ' do indeed belie/e t*at to be an in/ol)ntary *omicide is a less crime t*an to be a decei/er abo)t bea)ty or +oodness or j)stice in t*e matter of laws. "nd t*at is a ris3 w*ic* ' wo)ld rat*er r)n amon+ enemies t*an amon+ friends, and t*erefore yo) do well to enco)ra+e me. la)con la)+*ed and said2 Well t*en, Socrates, in case yo) and yo)r ar+)ment do )s any serio)s inj)ry yo) s*all be ac4)itted before*and of t*e and s*all not be *eld to be a decei/er. ta3e co)ra+e t*en and s-ea3. Well, ' said, t*e law says t*at w*en a man is ac4)itted *e is free from +)ilt, and w*at *olds at law may *old in ar+)ment. T*en w*y s*o)ld yo) mind1 Well, ' re-lied, ' s)--ose t*at ' m)st retrace my ste-s and say w*at ' -er*a-s o)+*t to *a/e said before in t*e -ro-er -lace. T*e -art of t*e men *as been -layed o)t, and now -ro-erly eno)+* comes t*e t)rn of t*e women. $f t*em ' will -roceed to s-ea3, and t*e more readily since ' am in/ited by yo).

;or men born and ed)cated li3e o)r citi7ens, t*e only way, in my o-inion, of arri/in+ at a ri+*t concl)sion abo)t t*e -ossession and )se of women and c*ildren is to follow t*e -at* on w*ic* we ori+inally started, w*en we said t*at t*e men were to be t*e +)ardians and watc*do+s of t*e *erd. Tr)e. !et )s f)rt*er s)--ose t*e birt* and ed)cation of o)r women to be s)bject to similar or nearly similar re+)lations. t*en we s*all see w*et*er t*e res)lt accords wit* o)r desi+n. W*at do yo) mean1 W*at ' mean may be -)t into t*e form of a 4)estion, ' said2 "re do+s di/ided into *es and s*es, or do t*ey bot* s*are e4)ally in *)ntin+ and in 3ee-in+ watc* and in t*e ot*er d)ties of do+s1 or do we entr)st to t*e males t*e entire and e0cl)si/e care of t*e floc3s, w*ile we lea/e t*e females at *ome, )nder t*e idea t*at t*e bearin+ and s)c3lin+ t*eir -)--ies is labo)r eno)+* for t*em1 %o, *e said, t*ey s*are ali3e. t*e only difference between t*em is t*at t*e males are stron+er and t*e females wea3er. B)t can yo) )se different animals for t*e same -)r-ose, )nless t*ey are bred and fed in t*e same way1 6o) cannot. T*en, if women are to *a/e t*e same d)ties as men, t*ey m)st *a/e t*e same n)rt)re and ed)cation1 6es. T*e ed)cation w*ic* was assi+ned to t*e men was m)sic and +ymnastic. 6es. T*en women m)st be ta)+*t m)sic and +ymnastic and also t*e art of war, w*ic* t*ey m)st -ractise li3e t*e men1 T*at is t*e inference, ' s)--ose. ' s*o)ld rat*er e0-ect, ' said, t*at se/eral of o)r -ro-osals, if t*ey are carried o)t, bein+ )n)s)al, may a--ear ridic)lo)s. %o do)bt of it. 6es, and t*e most ridic)lo)s t*in+ of all will be t*e si+*t of women na3ed in t*e -alaestra, e0ercisin+ wit* t*e men, es-ecially w*en t*ey are no lon+er yo)n+. t*ey certainly will not be a /ision of bea)ty, any more t*an t*e ent*)siastic old men w*o in s-ite of wrin3les and )+liness contin)e to fre4)ent t*e +ymnasia. 6es, indeed, *e said2 accordin+ to -resent notions t*e -ro-osal wo)ld be t*o)+*t ridic)lo)s. B)t t*en, ' said, as we *a/e determined to s-ea3 o)r minds, we m)st not fear t*e jests of t*e wits w*ic* will be directed a+ainst t*is sort of inno/ation. *ow t*ey will tal3 of women5s attainments bot* in m)sic and +ymnastic, and abo/e all abo)t t*eir wearin+ armo)r and ridin+ )-on *orsebac3: >ery tr)e, *e re-lied. 6et *a/in+ be+)n we m)st +o forward to t*e ro)+* -laces of t*e law. at t*e same time be++in+ of t*ese +entlemen for once in t*eir life to be serio)s. %ot lon+ a+o, as we s*all remind t*em, t*e 8ellenes were of t*e o-inion, w*ic* is still +enerally recei/ed amon+ t*e barbarians, t*at t*e si+*t of a na3ed man was ridic)lo)s and im-ro-er. and w*en first t*e Cretans and t*en t*e !acedaemonians introd)ced t*e c)stom, t*e wits of t*at day mi+*t e4)ally *a/e ridic)led t*e

inno/ation. %o do)bt. B)t w*en e0-erience s*owed t*at to let all t*in+s be )nco/ered was far better t*an to co/er t*em )-, and t*e l)dicro)s effect to t*e o)tward eye /anis*ed before t*e better -rinci-le w*ic* reason asserted, t*en t*e man was -ercei/ed to be a fool w*o directs t*e s*afts of *is ridic)le at any ot*er si+*t b)t t*at of folly and /ice, or serio)sly inclines to wei+* t*e bea)tif)l by any ot*er standard b)t t*at of t*e +ood. >ery tr)e, *e re-lied. ;irst, t*en, w*et*er t*e 4)estion is to be -)t in jest or in earnest, let )s come to an )nderstandin+ abo)t t*e nat)re of woman2 's s*e ca-able of s*arin+ eit*er w*olly or -artially in t*e actions of men, or not at all1 "nd is t*e art of war one of t*ose arts in w*ic* s*e can or can not s*are1 T*at will be t*e best way of commencin+ t*e en4)iry, and will -robably lead to t*e fairest concl)sion. T*at will be m)c* t*e best way. S*all we ta3e t*e ot*er side first and be+in by ar+)in+ a+ainst o)rsel/es. in t*is manner t*e ad/ersary5s -osition will not be )ndefended. W*y not1 *e said. T*en let )s -)t a s-eec* into t*e mo)t*s of o)r o--onents. T*ey will say2 5Socrates and la)con, no ad/ersary need con/ict yo), for yo) yo)rsel/es, at t*e first fo)ndation of t*e State, admitted t*e -rinci-le t*at e/erybody was to do t*e one wor3 s)ited to *is own nat)re.5 "nd certainly, if ' am not mista3en, s)c* an admission was made by )s. 5"nd do not t*e nat)res of men and women differ /ery m)c* indeed15 "nd we s*all re-ly2 $f co)rse t*ey do. T*en we s*all be as3ed, 5W*et*er t*e tas3s assi+ned to men and to women s*o)ld not be different, and s)c* as are a+reeable to t*eir different nat)res15 Certainly t*ey s*o)ld. 5B)t if so, *a/e yo) not fallen into a serio)s inconsistency in sayin+ t*at men and women, w*ose nat)res are so entirely different, o)+*t to -erform t*e same actions15 --W*at defence will yo) ma3e for )s, my +ood Sir, a+ainst any one w*o offers t*ese objections1 T*at is not an easy 4)estion to answer w*en as3ed s)ddenly. and ' s*all and ' do be+ of yo) to draw o)t t*e case on o)r side. T*ese are t*e objections, la)con, and t*ere are many ot*ers of a li3e 3ind, w*ic* ' foresaw lon+ a+o. t*ey made me afraid and rel)ctant to ta3e in *and any law abo)t t*e -ossession and n)rt)re of women and c*ildren. By ?e)s, *e said, t*e -roblem to be sol/ed is anyt*in+ b)t easy. W*y yes, ' said, b)t t*e fact is t*at w*en a man is o)t of *is de-t*, w*et*er *e *as fallen into a little swimmin+ bat* or into mid-ocean, *e *as to swim all t*e same. >ery tr)e. "nd m)st not we swim and try to reac* t*e s*ore2 we will *o-e t*at "rion5s dol-*in or some ot*er mirac)lo)s *el- may sa/e )s1 ' s)--ose so, *e said. Well t*en, let )s see if any way of esca-e can be fo)nd. We ac3nowled+ed --did we not1 t*at different nat)res o)+*t to *a/e different -)rs)its, and t*at men5s and women5s nat)res are different. "nd now w*at are we sayin+1 --t*at different nat)res o)+*t to *a/e t*e same -)rs)its, --t*is is t*e inconsistency w*ic* is c*ar+ed )-on )s.

Precisely. >erily, la)con, ' said, +lorio)s is t*e -ower of t*e art of contradiction: W*y do yo) say so1 Beca)se ' t*in3 t*at many a man falls into t*e -ractice a+ainst *is will. W*en *e t*in3s t*at *e is reasonin+ *e is really dis-)tin+, j)st beca)se *e cannot define and di/ide, and so 3now t*at of w*ic* *e is s-ea3in+. and *e will -)rs)e a merely /erbal o--osition in t*e s-irit of contention and not of fair disc)ssion. 6es, *e re-lied, s)c* is /ery often t*e case. b)t w*at *as t*at to do wit* )s and o)r ar+)ment1 " +reat deal. for t*ere is certainly a dan+er of o)r +ettin+ )nintentionally into a /erbal o--osition. 'n w*at way1 W*y, we /aliantly and -)+nacio)sly insist )-on t*e /erbal tr)t*, t*at different nat)res o)+*t to *a/e different -)rs)its, b)t we ne/er considered at all w*at was t*e meanin+ of sameness or difference of nat)re, or w*y we distin+)is*ed t*em w*en we assi+ned different -)rs)its to different nat)res and t*e same to t*e same nat)res. W*y, no, *e said, t*at was ne/er considered by )s. ' said2 S)--ose t*at by way of ill)stration we were to as3 t*e 4)estion w*et*er t*ere is not an o--osition in nat)re between bald men and *airy men. and if t*is is admitted by )s, t*en, if bald men are cobblers, we s*o)ld forbid t*e *airy men to be cobblers, and con/ersely1 T*at wo)ld be a jest, *e said. 6es, ' said, a jest. and w*y1 beca)se we ne/er meant w*en we constr)cted t*e State, t*at t*e o--osition of nat)res s*o)ld e0tend to e/ery difference, b)t only to t*ose differences w*ic* affected t*e -)rs)it in w*ic* t*e indi/id)al is en+a+ed. we s*o)ld *a/e ar+)ed, for e0am-le, t*at a -*ysician and one w*o is in mind a -*ysician may be said to *a/e t*e same nat)re. Tr)e. W*ereas t*e -*ysician and t*e car-enter *a/e different nat)res1 Certainly. "nd if, ' said, t*e male and female se0 a--ear to differ in t*eir fitness for any art or -)rs)it, we s*o)ld say t*at s)c* -)rs)it or art o)+*t to be assi+ned to one or t*e ot*er of t*em. b)t if t*e difference consists only in women bearin+ and men be+ettin+ c*ildren, t*is does not amo)nt to a -roof t*at a woman differs from a man in res-ect of t*e sort of ed)cation s*e s*o)ld recei/e. and we s*all t*erefore contin)e to maintain t*at o)r +)ardians and t*eir wi/es o)+*t to *a/e t*e same -)rs)its. >ery tr)e, *e said. %e0t, we s*all as3 o)r o--onent *ow, in reference to any of t*e -)rs)its or arts of ci/ic life, t*e nat)re of a woman differs from t*at of a man1 T*at will be 4)ite fair. "nd -er*a-s *e, li3e yo)rself, will re-ly t*at to +i/e a s)fficient answer on t*e instant is not easy. b)t after a little reflection t*ere is no diffic)lty. 6es, -er*a-s. S)--ose t*en t*at we in/ite *im to accom-any )s in t*e ar+)ment, and t*en we may *o-e to s*ow *im t*at t*ere is not*in+ -ec)liar in t*e constit)tion of women w*ic* wo)ld affect t*em in t*e administration of t*e State.

By all means. !et )s say to *im2 Come now, and we will as3 yo) a 4)estion2 --w*en yo) s-o3e of a nat)re +ifted or not +ifted in any res-ect, did yo) mean to say t*at one man will ac4)ire a t*in+ easily, anot*er wit* diffic)lty. a little learnin+ will lead t*e one to disco/er a +reat deal. w*ereas t*e ot*er, after m)c* st)dy and a--lication, no sooner learns t*an *e for+ets. or a+ain, did yo) mean, t*at t*e one *as a body w*ic* is a +ood ser/ant to *is mind, w*ile t*e body of t*e ot*er is a *indrance to *im1wo)ld not t*ese be t*e sort of differences w*ic* distin+)is* t*e man +ifted by nat)re from t*e one w*o is )n+ifted1 %o one will deny t*at. "nd can yo) mention any -)rs)it of man3ind in w*ic* t*e male se0 *as not all t*ese +ifts and 4)alities in a *i+*er de+ree t*an t*e female1 %eed ' waste time in s-ea3in+ of t*e art of wea/in+, and t*e mana+ement of -anca3es and -reser/es, in w*ic* woman3ind does really a--ear to be +reat, and in w*ic* for *er to be beaten by a man is of all t*in+s t*e most abs)rd1 6o) are 4)ite ri+*t, *e re-lied, in maintainin+ t*e +eneral inferiority of t*e female se02 alt*o)+* many women are in many t*in+s s)-erior to many men, yet on t*e w*ole w*at yo) say is tr)e. "nd if so, my friend, ' said, t*ere is no s-ecial fac)lty of administration in a state w*ic* a woman *as beca)se s*e is a woman, or w*ic* a man *as by /irt)e of *is se0, b)t t*e +ifts of nat)re are ali3e diff)sed in bot*. all t*e -)rs)its of men are t*e -)rs)its of women also, b)t in all of t*em a woman is inferior to a man. >ery tr)e. T*en are we to im-ose all o)r enactments on men and none of t*em on women1 T*at will ne/er do. $ne woman *as a +ift of *ealin+, anot*er not. one is a m)sician, and anot*er *as no m)sic in *er nat)re1 >ery tr)e. "nd one woman *as a t)rn for +ymnastic and military e0ercises, and anot*er is )nwarli3e and *ates +ymnastics1 Certainly. "nd one woman is a -*iloso-*er, and anot*er is an enemy of -*iloso-*y. one *as s-irit, and anot*er is wit*o)t s-irit1 T*at is also tr)e. T*en one woman will *a/e t*e tem-er of a +)ardian, and anot*er not. Was not t*e selection of t*e male +)ardians determined by differences of t*is sort1 6es. (en and women ali3e -ossess t*e 4)alities w*ic* ma3e a +)ardian. t*ey differ only in t*eir com-arati/e stren+t* or wea3ness. $b/io)sly. "nd t*ose women w*o *a/e s)c* 4)alities are to be selected as t*e com-anions and collea+)es of men w*o *a/e similar 4)alities and w*om t*ey resemble in ca-acity and in c*aracter1 >ery tr)e.

"nd o)+*t not t*e same nat)res to *a/e t*e same -)rs)its1 T*ey o)+*t. T*en, as we were sayin+ before, t*ere is not*in+ )nnat)ral in assi+nin+ m)sic and +ymnastic to t*e wi/es of t*e +)ardians --to t*at -oint we come ro)nd a+ain. Certainly not. T*e law w*ic* we t*en enacted was a+reeable to nat)re, and t*erefore not an im-ossibility or mere as-iration. and t*e contrary -ractice, w*ic* -re/ails at -resent, is in reality a /iolation of nat)re. T*at a--ears to be tr)e. We *ad to consider, first, w*et*er o)r -ro-osals were -ossible, and secondly w*et*er t*ey were t*e most beneficial1 6es. "nd t*e -ossibility *as been ac3nowled+ed1 6es. T*e /ery +reat benefit *as ne0t to be establis*ed1 @)ite so. 6o) will admit t*at t*e same ed)cation w*ic* ma3es a man a +ood +)ardian will ma3e a woman a +ood +)ardian. for t*eir ori+inal nat)re is t*e same1 6es. ' s*o)ld li3e to as3 yo) a 4)estion. W*at is it1 Wo)ld yo) say t*at all men are e4)al in e0cellence, or is one man better t*an anot*er1 T*e latter. "nd in t*e commonwealt* w*ic* we were fo)ndin+ do yo) concei/e t*e +)ardians w*o *a/e been bro)+*t )- on o)r model system to be more -erfect men, or t*e cobblers w*ose ed)cation *as been cobblin+1 W*at a ridic)lo)s 4)estion: 6o) *a/e answered me, ' re-lied2 Well, and may we not f)rt*er say t*at o)r +)ardians are t*e best of o)r citi7ens1 By far t*e best. "nd will not t*eir wi/es be t*e best women1 6es, by far t*e best. "nd can t*ere be anyt*in+ better for t*e interests of t*e State t*an t*at t*e men and women of a State s*o)ld be as +ood as -ossible1 T*ere can be not*in+ better. "nd t*is is w*at t*e arts of m)sic and +ymnastic, w*en -resent in s)c* manner as we *a/e described, will accom-lis*1 Certainly. T*en we *a/e made an enactment not only -ossible b)t in t*e *i+*est de+ree beneficial to t*e State1 Tr)e. T*en let t*e wi/es of o)r +)ardians stri-, for t*eir /irt)e will be t*eir robe, and let t*em s*are in t*e toils of war and t*e defence of t*eir co)ntry. only in t*e distrib)tion of labo)rs t*e li+*ter are to be

assi+ned to t*e women, w*o are t*e wea3er nat)res, b)t in ot*er res-ects t*eir d)ties are to be t*e same. "nd as for t*e man w*o la)+*s at na3ed women e0ercisin+ t*eir bodies from t*e best of moti/es, in *is la)+*ter *e is -l)c3in+ " fr)it of )nri-e wisdom, and *e *imself is i+norant of w*at *e is la)+*in+ at, or w*at *e is abo)t. --for t*at is, and e/er will be, t*e best of sayin+s, T*at t*e )sef)l is t*e noble and t*e *)rtf)l is t*e base. >ery tr)e. 8ere, t*en, is one diffic)lty in o)r law abo)t women, w*ic* we may say t*at we *a/e now esca-ed. t*e wa/e *as not swallowed )s )- ali/e for enactin+ t*at t*e +)ardians of eit*er se0 s*o)ld *a/e all t*eir -)rs)its in common. to t*e )tility and also to t*e -ossibility of t*is arran+ement t*e consistency of t*e ar+)ment wit* itself bears witness. 6es, t*at was a mi+*ty wa/e w*ic* yo) *a/e esca-ed. 6es, ' said, b)t a +reater is comin+. yo) will of t*is w*en yo) see t*e ne0t.