Monique Rathbun V Scientology: Motion To Reconsider

CAUSE NO. C2013-1082B IN THE DISTRICT COURT MONIQUE RATHBUN Plaintiff, VS.
VS. DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, and MONTY DRAKE, Defendants.
207th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS
MOTION FOR CLARIFICATION AND TO RECONSIDER ORDER GRANTING CONTINUANCE AND DISCOVERY ON JURISDICTION TO THE HONORABLE JUDGE OF SAID COURT: Subject to and without waiver of their special appearances, Defendants David Miscavige (Mr. Miscavige) and Religious Technology Center (RTC) file this Motion for Clarification and to Reconsider Order Granting Continuance and Discovery on Jurisdiction: I. INTRODUCTION 1. On December 13, 2013, the Court considered Mrs. Rathbuns Motion to Compel
Discovery and for Continuance of Special Appearance Hearing and announced that it would grant the Plaintiffs motion. The Court subsequently signed an Order Granting Continuance and Discovery on Jurisdiction (Order Granting Continuance).1 The Court should reconsider its order for the following reasons:
The Courts order is dated December 13, 2013, but the order was not distributed or available to the parties before December 20, 2013. A copy of the Order is attached as Exhibit A. 1
a.
The specially appearing defendants have been denied their right to present their special appearance motions before the Court orders further discovery. An opportunity to conclusively negate the plaintiff's basis for jurisdiction is essential because the purpose behind a special appearance is to ensure that parties are not compelled to participate in a lawsuit when the trial court lacks jurisdiction over them;
b.
The Court elected not to consider evidence presented by the Defendants that negates the Court's jurisdiction. But the discovery submitted by
Defendants, including the depositions of Mr. McShane and Mr. Cartwright, demonstrate that the Court lacks personal jurisdiction over Defendants, which eliminates any basis for additional discovery; and c. Defendants must be afforded the opportunity to contest evidence upon which the Court based its order for additional discovery. Because the Order does not describe the evidence it considered, Defendants have been erroneously denied a meaningful opportunity to demonstrate why the Court lacks personal jurisdiction over them. 2. This Court should set a hearing to allow the specially appearing defendants the
opportunity to fully present their special appearance motions. The circumstances this case presents are extraordinary. Although the Plaintiff has taken five depositions, no deponent had any knowledge that Mr. Miscavige had even one relevant contact with Texas. Plaintiff noticed depositions of other non-party witnesses, but then abandoned that effort presumably because the result would be the samethat none of them could recount that Mr. Miscavige had any meaningful Texas contact. The sixteen Affidavits and Declarations the Plaintiff relies on present
innuendo rather than facts.
They assert that Mr. Miscavige was involved extensively in
executive-level decisions concerning the Religious Technology Center and the Church of Scientology International. Most, like the declaration from Mark "Marty" Rathbun, involve alleged corporate practices occurring more than a decade ago outside of Texas. But none of these declarations, even if taken as true, present direct evidence of Mr. Miscaviges current role or that he has unique or superior knowledge about the particular facts underlying this lawsuit sufficient to establish minimum Texas contacts. In a similar context involving apex depositions, the Supreme Court of Texas has declared emphatically that discovery of a high-level executive cannot rest on the mere assertion that the executive has ultimate responsibility for corporate decisions. See In re Alcatel USA, Inc., 11 S.W.3d 173, 176 (Tex. 2000) (orig. proceeding) (holding that allegations that apex official was "a long-time company leader who sets the company vision with lofty goals" did not establish his unique or superior knowledge, because "[v]irtually every company's CEO has similar characteristics). 3. Plaintiff has already taken two high-level corporate representative depositions of
the President of RTC and Legal Director and Corporate Officer of CSI. Like the declarations, these depositions do not establish that Mr. Miscavige has the required unique or superior knowledge about the facts and contacts at issue here. To the contrary, these depositions show that Plaintiff had an adequate opportunity to discover any jurisdictional facts related to RTCs or Mr. Miscaviges alleged contacts, if any, with Texas from corporate officers who are in a position to know about these questions. Plaintiff simply chose not to ask the relevant
jurisdictional questions and thus did not make a reasonable effort to explore less-intrusive discovery before seeking Mr. Miscaviges deposition. See In re Daisy Mfg. Co., Inc., 17 S.W.3d 654, 657 (Tex. 2000) (orig. proceeding).
4.
At issue is the proposed deposition of the ecclesiastical leader of a religious
organization. The First Amendment, the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, the analogous law pertaining to apex depositionseach of these critical jurisprudential doctrines require a thorough hearing on Defendants' special appearance motions as a predicate to breaching the protections the law affords not only to high executive officers, but perhaps more importantly to the leader of an established religion. An encroachment on religious liberty must survive exacting scrutiny, rather than the speculative grounds the Plaintiff has tendered. In this case, the encroachment takes the form of a court-ordered deposition that would unnecessarily distract an ecclesiastical leader from his core mission to promote his faith. It is intolerable that the Court would subject Defendants to an order compelling that deposition without first reviewing all of the evidence at stakenot only the Plaintiffs evidence but also the Defendantsand identifying the evidence on which the Court based its ruling. II. BACKGROUND 5. Defendants, David Miscavige and RTC, filed special appearances in this case on
August 28, 2013. Those special appearances were originally set for hearing on September 12, 2013. 6. On September 9, 2013, Plaintiff moved to continue the September 12 hearing,
asking that the court permit her to take jurisdictional discovery from [Mr.] Miscavige and RTC and specifically seeking Mr. Miscaviges deposition.2 Mr. Miscavige and RTC opposed the continuance motion. At the hearing on Plaintiffs motion, the court continued the special
Plaintiffs First Motion for Continuance of Special Appearance Hearing, at paras 7 and 14. 4
appearance hearing until October 18, 2013.3 The hearing on the special appearance was reset to December 11 and/or 13, 2013.4 7. In the meantime, Mr. Miscavige and RTC objected to submitting Mr. Miscavige Consequently, the Court asked that the parties agree to less intrusive
for deposition.
jurisdictional discovery.5 As a result, the parties agreed that the following discovery would occur: (1) the deposition of a corporate representative of defendant, RTC, subsequently taken on November 20, 2013; (2) the deposition of a corporate representative of defendant, Church of Scientology International (CSI), subsequently taken on November 20, 2013; (3) the deposition of defendant private investigator, Monty Drake, subsequently taken on October 29, 2013; and, (4) the deposition of defendant investigator, Steven Sloat, subsequently taken on October 29, 2013.6 Plaintiff also sought and obtained the deposition of non-party witness, Tommy Davis, on December 4, 2013.7 The transcripts from these depositions make clear that Mr. Miscavige has no relevant contacts with Texas, underscoring the purely harassing purpose of the proposed deposition of Mr. Miscavige. These depositions also establish that, for whatever reason, Plaintiff made little effort to ask the witnesses precise questions about the exact nature of Defendants alleged contacts with Texas. Now, the Plaintiff complains about the absence of answers to jurisdictional questions she did not ask to depose a Defendant that has already demonstrated his lack of minimum Texas contacts.
3 4
Transcript from 9/13/2013 hearing, at 115. See Transcript from 10/8/2013 hearing, at 27. 5 Transcript from 9/13/2013 hearing, at 108. 6 Transcript from 10/8/2013 hearing, at 8. 7 Additionally, Plaintiff noticed for deposition non-party witnesses -- actress Leah Remini as well as non-party witness, the Riverside County Sheriffs Department. Plaintiff obtained substantial media coverage over the supposed Remini deposition. Plaintiff has apparently since changed her mind and abandoned her efforts to obtain that discovery. 5
8.
Plaintiff propounded requests for production of documents to Mr. Miscavige,
RTC and CSI. Defendants produced responsive documents, lodged appropriate objections, and served the Plaintiff a log for documents withheld from production based on privilege. Responses and objections were served on Plaintiff on October 14, 2013. Responsive documents were delivered to Plaintiff on October 28, 2013. 9. On December 2, 2013, despite having had the opportunity to conduct ample
jurisdictional discovery, and even before Plaintiff had started the deposition of Mr. Tommy Davis, plaintiff filed her Motion to Compel Discovery and for Continuance of Special Appearance Hearing again asking that David Miscavige be ordered to appear for deposition. In her continuance motion, Plaintiff generally complains about defendants responses to her requests for production, but Plaintiff has not challenged the objections lodged by defendants, nor has she requested that the Court review those documents identified on Defendants privilege logs. Her motion for continuance was initially unaccompanied by any supporting evidence, verifications, or affidavits. Subsequently, on December 6, 2013, Plaintiff filed the Affidavit of Ray B. Jeffrey in Support of Mrs. Rathbuns Motion to Compel and for Continuance of Special Appearance Hearing. In any event, Plaintiff has not produced any evidence tying Mr. Miscavige to a relevant act in Texas, nor has she undertaken reasonable efforts to explore discovery through means less intrusive than the deposition of Mr. Miscavige, the ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion. See In re Daisy Mfg. Co., Inc., 17 S.W.3d 654, 658 (Tex. 2000) (orig. proceeding) (instructing courts to measure whether the discovering party made a reasonable effort to obtain discovery through less-intrusive methods). 10. On December 3, 2013, plaintiff filed a Notice of Filing Affidavits and/or
Declarations, accompanied by sixteen signed witness statements. The statements are dated
between February 22, 2013 and December 3, 2013.8 The statements were submitted for the specific purpose of supplementing plaintiffs response to the special appearances of RTC and Mr. Miscavige, and not for the purpose of seeking a continuance of the special appearance hearing or forcing the deposition of Mr. Miscavige. All defendants joined in filing evidentiary objections to the plaintiffs sixteen affidavits and declarations. 11. A hearing on plaintiffs motion to continue the special appearance hearing took
place on December 13, 2013. Counsel for the specially appearing defendants requested that the Court hear argument on the special appearance motions so it could identify all material jurisdictional facts before the Court ruled on Plaintiffs motion for continuance. The Court instead announced that it had reviewed roughly half of the witness statements tendered by plaintiff (statements that had been tendered in opposition to the special appearances), that it had read only one of the five depositions submitted by the parties, and that it had read a portion of the trial briefs.9 The Court did not review the jurisdictional depositions of the corporate
representatives of RTC and CSI, nor the other two depositions taken pursuant to the Courts order. These depositions and the other evidence presented to the Court are essential to
determining whether additional discovery is necessary. 12. The result is that the Court reviewed only the plaintiffs special appearance
evidence, without affording defendants the opportunity to present evidence and argument on whether additional jurisdictional discovery would be necessary to rule on the special appearance motions. Defendants are entitled to an equal opportunity to present evidence and argument to
8
The dates of the statements are as follows: Don Jason (2/22/2013), Jefferson Hawkins (9/16/2013), Marc Headley (9/17/2013), Mark Pesch (9/22/2013), Mary Lucy James (9/23/2013), Amy Scobee (9/23/2013), John R. Brousseau (9/28/2013), Chris Guider (9/30/2013), David Lingenfelter (9/30/2013), Mercy Lingenfelter (9/30/2013), Stephen w. Hall (10/1/2013), Claire Headley (10/2/2013), Bernard Leahy (10/17/2013), Michael Fairman (11/15/2013) and Michael Rinder (12/3/2013). 9 Transcript from 12/13/2013 hearing at 11-12. 7
show the Court that it lacks personal jurisdiction over Mr. Miscavige. That showing would conclusively eliminate the purported basis for deposing him. 13. A review of the complete jurisdictional recorda record that includes five
depositions (including two corporate representative depositions)shows that Plaintiff has not established a prima facie case necessary to obtain further jurisdictional discovery in the form of a deposition of Mr. Miscavige. See, e.g., Cent. States, Se. & Sw. Areas Pension Fund v. Reimer Express World Corp., 230 F.3d 934, 946 (7th Cir.2000) (At a minimum, the plaintiff must establish a colorable or prima facie showing of personal jurisdiction before discovery should be permitted.); Jazini v. Nissan Motor Co., 148 F.3d 181, 186 (2d Cir.1998) (Since the [plaintiff] did not establish a prima facie case that the district court had jurisdiction over [the defendant], the district court did not err in denying discovery on that issue.). 14. On the basis of its limited review, the court ordered that Mr. Miscavige submit to
an oral deposition. Mr. Miscavige and RTC asked that the order be stayed while he seeks appellate review the court granted that request for a period of one week. The court signed a written order memorializing its ruling on December 13, 2013. A copy of that order was not available to the parties until December 20, 2013. III. REQUEST FOR HEARING 15. Specially appearing defendants, RTC and Mr. Miscavige, request that the court
hear their special appearances at the earliest opportunity, and even during the pendency of any appeal or reconsideration of the order requiring the deposition of Mr. Miscavige. Holding such hearing would accomplish the following:
a.
Provide the opportunity for the specially appearing defendants to finally make use of their dance shoes and argue their motion on the merits;10
b.
Allow the Court to make a fully informed decision, based on a full record, on whether additional discovery is necessary to adjudicate the special appearance motions;
c. 16.
Establish that no additional jurisdictional discovery is warranted.
Allowing defendants to proceed with the hearing on their special appearance is
especially warranted under the circumstances of this case. Plaintiffs sought and obtained an ex parte temporary restraining order against the specially appearing defendants which was widely reported in the media.11 The Court began, but then adjourned, a temporary injunction hearing on September 12, 2013. At that time, the Court has expressed its view that the commencement of the hearing had the effect of extending the TRO for a reasonable period of time.12 It is now three and a half months later and defendants have yet to have the opportunity to demonstrate that this court lacks personal jurisdiction over them and that they were not involved in the matters of which the plaintiff complains. The continuation of the ex parte TRO is further reason why the specially appearing defendants should be allowed a prompt and full hearing on their special appearances. 17. The notion of holding the special appearance hearing and then determining
whether additional evidence was warranted was initially expressed by the Court itself.13 That procedure would prejudice no one, would allow defendants their day in court on their special
10 11
See Transcript from 12/11/2013 hearing at 25. The front page of the Tampa Bay Times featured the story on its front page under the headline, Judge blocks Scientology boss. 12 Transcript from 9/12/2013 hearing, at 213. 13 Transcript from 12/11/2013 hearing, at 25-26. 9
appearances, and would provide the Court with ample evidence and argument to determine whether additional discovery was warranted and, if so, the nature of that discovery. 18. Regardless of whether the Court agrees to a hearing on the pending special
appearances, the Courts Order Granting Continuance and Discovery on Jurisdiction should be clarified to specify the evidence relied upon by the Court in rendering the order. The Order currently provides that further discovery should be allowed based on the Courts review of portions of the depositions, declarations, and other evidence considered. The Court should specify any other evidence that is not on file, but that the Court considered in rendering its order. 19. To assist the Court in its review of the evidence, attached to this motion are true
and correct copies of the following documents, which, at a minimum, establish that no further jurisdictional discovery is warranted: a. b. c. d. e. Exhibit B Deposition of Corporate Representative of CSI, Allan Cartwright; Exhibit C Deposition of Corporate Representative of RTC, Warren McShane; Exhibit D Deposition of Monty Drake Davis (submitted in summary form because of confidentiality agreement); Exhibit E Deposition of Steven Sloat; and, Exhibit F Deposition of Mr. Tommy Davis.
Wherefore, RTC and Mr. Miscavige pray that this motion be granted and for general relief.
10
Respectfully submitted, /s/ Lamont A. Jefferson Lamont A. Jefferson State Bar No. 10607800 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 112 East Pecan Street, Suite 1200 San Antonio TX 78205-1540 Telephone: 210.978.7413 Facsimile: 210.554.0413 J. Iris Gibson State Bar No. 24037471 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 600 Congress Ave., Suite 1300 Austin TX 78701 Telephone: 512.867.8403 Facsimile: 512.867.8650 Wallace B. Jefferson State Bar No. 00000019 Rachel Ekery State Bar No. 00787424 ALEXANDER DUBOSE JEFFERSON & TOWNSEND LLP 515 Congress Avenue, Suite 2350 Austin, Texas 78701-3562 Telephone: 512.482.9300 Facsimile: 512.482.9303 ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS DAVID MISCAVIGE AND RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER
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CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I hereby certify that a true and correct copy of the foregoing document has been forwarded to the following counsel of record in this cause in accordance with the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure on this the 31st day of December, 2013. Ray Jeffrey A. Dannette Mitchell JEFFREY & MITCHELL, P. C. 2631 Bulverde Road, Suite 105 Bulverde, TX 78163 Marc F. Wiegand THE WIEGAND LAW FIRM, P.C. 434 N. Loop 1604 West, Suite 2201 San Antonio, Texas 78232 Elliott S. Cappuccio PULMANCAPPUCCIO PULLEN & BENSON, LLP 2161 N.W. Military Hwy., #400 San Antonio, Texas 78213 Ricardo G. Cedillo Les J. Strieber III DAVIS, CEDILLO& MENDOZA, INC. McCombs Plaza, Suite 500 755 E. Mulberry Avenue San Antonio, Texas 78212 George H. Spencer, Jr. CLEMENS & SPENCER 112 E. Pecan, Suite 1300 San Antonio, Texas 78205 /s/ Lamont A. Jefferson Lamont A. Jefferson Bert H. Deixler (admitted pro hac vice) KENDALL BRILL &KLIEGER LLP 10100 Santa Monica Blvd., Suite 1725 Los Angeles, California 90067 Jonathan H. Hull REAGAN BURRUS PLLC 401 Main Plaza, Suite 200 New Braunfels, Texas 78130 O. Paul Dunagan SARLES&OIMET 370 Founders Square 900 Jackson Street Dallas, Texas 76202-4436 Stephanie S. Bascon LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON PLLC 297 W San Antonio St. New Braunfels, TX 78130
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Exhibit A
Allan Cartwright
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NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS ) DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS ) TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH ) OF SCIENTOLOGY ) INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN ) GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY ) DRAKE, ) ) Defendants. ) 207TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
----------------------------------ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ALLAN CARTWRIGHT NOVEMBER 20, 2013 ----------------------------------ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ALLAN CARTWRIGHT, produced as a witness at the instance of the PLAINTIFF, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on November 20, 2013 from 9:31 o'clock a.m. to 1:30 o'clock p.m., before DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the law offices of HAYNES & BOONE, L.L.P., 112 E. Pecan, Suite 1200, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
DepoTexas www.DepoTexas.com
Exhibit B
dadc7b0f-9577-4a1b-b8a8-4e1cd8d34365
Electronically signed by debbie longoria (101-086-015-3924)
Allan Cartwright
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. CLEMENS & SPENCER 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1300 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 227-7121 spencejr@clemens-spencer.com LAMONT JEFFERSON LISA BARKLEY HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 112 EAST PECAN, SUITE 1200 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 978-7000 lamont.jefferson@haynesboone.com lisa.barkley@haynesboone.com FOR THE DEFENDANT CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL: LES J. STRIEBER III CELINA WARREN DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 755 E. MULBERRY, SUITE 500 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78212 (210) 822-6666 lstrieber@dcmlaw.com cwarren@dcmlaw.com MARC F. WIEGAND THE WIEGAND LAW FIRM, P.C. 434 N. LOOP 1604 WEST, SUITE 2201 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78232 (210) 998-3289 marc@wiegandlawfirm.com FOR THE DEFENDANTS RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER AND DAVIS MISCAVIGE: APPEAR ANC ES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: RAY JEFFREY JEFFREY & MITCHELL, P.C. 2631 BULVERDE ROAD, SUITE 105 BULVERDE, TEXAS 78163 (830) 438-8935 rjeffrey@sjmlawyers.com
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INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................ 2 ALLAN CARTWRIGHT Examination by Mr. Jeffrey..................... 9
Signature and Changes...............................154 6 Reporter's Certificate..............................156 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 Ex. 1 Affidavit of Allan Cartwright............. 78 Ex. 2 Affidavit of David Miscavige.............. 91 11 Ex. 3 Contract for Investigative Services and... Non-Disclosure Agreement..................103 12 Ex. 4 Notice....................................112 13 14 REQUESTED DOCUMENTS/INFORMATION 15 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 16 (NONE) 17 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS 18 NO. PAGE/LINE 19 (NONE) 20 21 22 23 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record on 25 November 20th, 2013 at 9:31 a.m.
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FOR THE DEFENDANT MONTY DRAKE: O. PAUL DUNAGAN SARLES & OUIMET 3 370 FOUNDERS SQUARE 900 JACKSON STREET 4 DALLAS, TEXAS 75202 (214) 573-6309 5 dunagan@sarleslaw.com 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL: 7 JONATHAN H. HULL ASHLEY BOWEN 8 REAGAN BURRUS 401 MAIN PLAZA, SUITE 200 9 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-8026 10 jhull@reaganburrus.com abowen@reaganburrus.com 11 FOR DAVID LUBOW: 12 STEPHANIE S. BASCON 13 LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON 297 W. SAN ANTONIO STREET 14 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-2940 15 sbascon@att.net 16 ALSO PRESENT: 17 PAT CAREY, Videographer NEIL LAVIN 18 STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT MARK RATHBUN 19 MONTY DRAKE WARREN McSHANE 20 21 22 23 24 25
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ALLAN CARTWRIGHT, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: MR. JEFFERSON: Before we begin, again, as I said in advance of the last round of depositions, the -- this is Lamont Jefferson representing the specially appearing defendants, Religious Technology Center and David Miscavige. This deposition is being taken pursuant to a court order on jurisdictional matters only -- the jurisdictional matters only. It's our position that the jurisdictional matters in issue are the extent to which Mr. Miscavige or RTC has either a general presence in the State of Texas, or has a specific relationship to the allegations in the lawsuit, that is, were actually involved in the matters alleged by the plaintiffs in the case. To the extent questions go beyond that scope, we will likely object. MR. JEFFREY: Well, let's be clear on that. Will you be objecting or will you be instructing the witness not to answer? MR. JEFFERSON: If it's our witness, we'll do both. MR. JEFFREY: Well, I'm talking collectively to the crew over here. Because, if so, we'll just shut it down and we'll go see the judge and
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Allan Cartwright
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we'll get it ruled on because you have our pleadings, our preliminary pleadings on the special appearance, you know what the issues are as we have framed them. You don't get to frame what are the jurisdictional issues, so I just want to know that. If -- I -- I regard that as an objection substantively, so the way we do the depositions in Texas is we object to form, we instruct as to privilege or something like that. But, if we get into this, and what we're going to do is, he's not going to answer any questions about the things that we've put in issue concerning jurisdiction, I'm just going to shut down the deposition, we'll go get some rulings from the judge and then we'll come back, okay? MR. JEFFERSON: Totally your prerogative. If you want to shut it down, I'm not saying we'll reproduce a witness -MR. JEFFREY: Sure. MR. JEFFERSON: -- voluntarily. MR. JEFFREY: Sure. MR. JEFFERSON: I think your obligation is to proceed with the deposition. MR. JEFFREY: But I reviewed -MR. JEFFERSON: We will lodge -- we will lodge the objections that we think are necessary and we
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without waiving our rights under that motion. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. SPENCER: George Spencer, one of the lawyers for defendant CSI. MR. JEFFREY: You want to state your appearance? MR. JEFFERSON: I think we did. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Anybody else? MR. HULL: Jonathan Hull -MR. JEFFREY: Who are you? MR. McSHANE: I'm Warren McShane. MR. JEFFREY: Oh, you -- oh, that's right, I've met you before. MR. LAVIN: Neil Lavin with Church of Scientology International. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. HULL: Jonathan Hull, I represent Steve Sloat and Ed Brian. MS. BASCON: Stephanie Bascon, I represent David Lubow. MR. RATHBUN: Mark Rathbun. MR. JEFFREY: Mark Rathbun and -- the husband of the plaintiff, and I'm Ray Jeffrey and I represent the plaintiff, Monique Rathbun. I'll agree at the beginning that an objection for one defendant is an
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will instruct the witnesses as we believe necessary, and then we will proceed from there. MR. JEFFREY: I'm going to start with the assumption that we'll all be professionals and we'll do our best jobs for our clients. If we run into a problem, then we'll deal with it then, okay? Okay. Let's just state -MR. STRIEBER: Quickly -MR. JEFFREY: -- our appearances. MR. STRIEBER: Yeah, and I can do two things at once. MR. JEFFREY: Sure. MR. STRIEBER: Les Strieber here on behalf of the defendant CSI. Also, just for the record, because we've been having e-mail problems at our office, I hand-delivered to plaintiff's counsel Defendant CSI's Responses and Objection to Plaintiff's Second Amended Notice of Deposition right before we were starting. I just wanted to put that on the record because I intended to e-mail it and I turned it into a hand-delivery. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. DUNAGAN: Ray, before you get going, I'm Paul Dunagan, I'm here representing Monty Drake. We're participating in the discovery in the deposition in this case subject to our Motion of Transfer venue
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objection for all so that everyone doesn't need to piggyback on, so that's fine with me. MR. JEFFERSON: Thank you. MR. SPENCER: May we have that stipulation for all depositions -MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. SPENCER: -- in this case? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. SPENCER: Thank you. (Mr. Wiegand present.) EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFREY: Q. Mr. Cartwright, I'm -A. Yes. Q. -- Ray Jeffrey and I'm here today to take your deposition. You understand that, don't you? A. I do. Q. And you're the Director of Legal Affairs for the Office of Special Affairs for the Church of Scientology International? A. Correct. Q. So, generally speaking, you understand what a deposition is and what it means to give sworn testimony? A. Yes. Q. If you have any questions, please feel free to
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Allan Cartwright
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ask me. If I ask you a question that you don't understand, please feel free, it's usually my fault, and just tell me you don't understand the question, and I'll try to ask it better. If you need a break at any time, you just ask and that will be fine. And if you need any clarifications or anything like that, just speak up, okay? A. Will do. Q. We've met several times before, but I really don't know much about you, so I'm going to ask a little bit about you, who you are, so that we can evaluate you as a witness and -- and your context in this case. You -- as we covered a moment ago, you're the Director of Legal Affairs. Are you an attorney? A. No. Q. And how old a man are you? A. Fifty six. Q. And where is it that you work? A. In Los Angeles. Q. And where is your office? A. On Hollywood Boulevard. Q. And is it in a particular building? A. Yes, it is. Q. What building is that? A. It's the -- the CSI management offices.
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Q. And so, you said you're on ten? A. Correct. Q. RTC is on 11? A. It has an office there. Q. RTC doesn't take the whole floor, does it? A. I think it's basically the whole floor. Q. Okay. And about how many RTC personnel are up there on 11? A. It's not an office that's used that often. Q. So, in other words, there's an office, but it's not fully staffed all the time? A. No. Q. That's correct? A. Correct. Q. Does David Miscavige have an office on 11? A. He has used an office there, but he's rarely, rarely there. Q. Where is David Miscavige's office? A. He has offices in many different places. Q. Where is his primary office? A. I can't answer that question as to where it is primarily. Q. Have you ever been to his office? A. When you say -- I mean, I've been to the 11th floor office.
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Q. And what -- is the entire building occupied by different entities and personnel related to the Church of Scientology in some way? A. It was mainly to do with CSI, that's correct. Q. Okay. And what other church entities have their offices in that building? A. Okay. There's -- Religious Technology Center has an office in that building. Q. And what floor is your office on? A. Ten. Q. And what floor is Religious Technology Center offices on? A. Eleven. Q. Now, you work within an office called the Office of Special Affairs, correct? A. Correct. Q. How many floors of that building does the Office of Special Affairs have? A. Two. Q. And approximately, how many staff members are there working for the Office of Special Affairs? A. About 80, but I haven't counted them recently. Q. I understand you're just making a rough estimate. A. Right.
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Q. And have you ever been to whatever might be regarded as his primary office? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't -- as I said already, I can't really tell you what is his primary office. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) When you go home at night, where is that? Do you live in scientology quarters of some type, or do you live in a home, or where? A. We have an apartment complex. Q. And it's an apartment complex that is occupied by staff members of the Church of Scientology? A. Church of Scientology International, yes. Q. You don't live or work out on the international base out in Hemet East of Los Angeles, do you? A. I have gone -- I've gone there, I've stayed overnight there, as well. Q. Okay. How often? A. I'd say sometimes it's more often than others, so it's hard to say how often. Q. Sure. But, would you say in a given year you might stay out there five nights during the year or -A. I can't say. Q. -- 100 nights or what?
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A. I can't say. Q. Well, obviously, I can't say because I'm not with you and I don't know what you do on a daily basis. You're the only one that can tell us roughly how often you might actually stay out on the base. A. Uh-huh. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, asked and answered. MR. JEFFREY: This is Cross Examination. I'm just trying to explore his unresponsive answer. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) What -- why is it that you can't tell me whether you spend the night out at the international base six months a year or six days a year? You can't give me any clue on that? A. Well, the point is that I go there, I may not stay the night there. Q. Okay. A. So, that's -- that's why you say spend the night there, I'm not -- it's difficult to start saying how many nights I've spent there. Q. Well, it's not that difficult. 2013, how many nights did you spend the night out on the international base? A. I was -- I don't think I spent any nights there, but I went there -Page 15
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A. I do. Q. And from the Headley case in California. And in that declaration on paragraph ten, he described that Mr. Miscavige must rely on fully dedicated, thoroughly trained and unflinchingly loyal scientologists to carry out the ecclesiastical functions of the religion. And he said those were the religious volunteers of the Sea Organization. Do you think that's a fair characterization? MR. JEFFERSON: I'm going to object. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. And if you're going to confront him with a statement, I'd ask that you allow the witness to see the statement. THE WITNESS: Can I see the -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. I'm not confronting you with any writing. I'm asking you, do you think this is a fair characterization of the Sea Organization, that it is a group of fully dedicated, thoroughly trained and unflinchingly loyal scientologists? Is that a fair description? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I would say that members of the Sea Org are dedicated members of a religious order, and that's what I would say.
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Q. Okay. A. -- a number of times. Q. And so, in 2013, we're now in the latter part of November, how many days did you go out to the international base? A. In when? Q. 2013. A. Three or four times. Q. Okay. Are you a member of the Sea Organization? A. I am. Q. And if we refer to that as the Sea Org, you'll understand what I'm talking about? A. I will. Q. And how many years have you been a member of the Sea Org? A. Let me see. Thirty -- let's see. Thirty -32 years. Q. More than 30 years anyway? A. Correct. Q. A long time? A. Correct. Q. And on the subject of Sea Org and what it is, I have a sworn declaration from Warren McShane. You know Warren McShane, don't you?
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I'm just trying to find out what you might agree with or not agree with in my statement. Do you feel that they're unflinchingly loyal scientologists? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I mean, that's, you know, Mr. McShane's viewpoint. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I'm asking you. I'm sorry I mentioned Mr. McShane. So, let's just start this over. Would you agree that the members of the Sea Org are unflinchingly loyal scientologists? A. I think they're dedicated. Q. If I ask you if it's daytime or nighttime out, and you tell me that it's November, do you understand you haven't answered my question? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, argumentative. THE WITNESS: I understand what you're saying. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. I'm just trying to get some ground rules here. A. Okay. Q. I asked you, do you think it's fair to describe the members of the Sea Org as unflinchingly loyal scientologists, or do you disagree with that? A. I'm not disagreeing. I'm just giving you my
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interpretation of what he means by that, and what my understanding is of that. Q. Well, if someone were to say that the Sea Org members were fully dedicated, and then went on to say unflinchingly loyal, are you saying those two things are identical? A. I'm just saying that it's someone's viewpoint as to what they view as to Sea Org. I'm telling you what I view, so that's all -- that's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to be argumentative to you, I'm just -I'm just thinking you're trying to put words in my mouth, which aren't my words. Q. Well, I'm asking you, which I have a right to do, I'm asking you, do you agree or disagree? You understand that dedication is different from loyalty? A. I don't -- I don't think so. Q. Okay. Do you have a rank in the Sea Org? A. I do. Q. What is your rank? A. Ensign. Q. And that sounds like a naval rank. Is the Sea Org patterned in some way, shape or form after a naval structure? A. The Sea Org originated -- it originates from the '60s because it was originally on ships, and
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an organization within the Church of Scientology called the guardian's office? A. Was I ever assigned? Q. I don't know the proper word. Were you ever in the guardian's office, assigned to the guardian's office, worked in the guardian's office, however you want to characterize it? A. In the '70s? Q. Yes. A. That was before I was in the Sea Org. Q. Okay. A. I was on staff in Australia. Q. In the guardian's office? A. At one point, I had -- there was -- that was sort of the -- a department within the church I worked in back in the late '70s. Q. Okay. Well, I'm just asking you a simple question. Did you ever work in or with or on staff of the guardian's office? A. That's what I just answered you, it was a department within the Church of Scientology I worked in in Australia. Q. In the guardian's office? A. That's what I said, it was a department, yes. Q. Okay. It's never past your lips here in my
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that's -- we do -- it does have a naval source of it, yes. Q. And have you ever had any ranks other than ensign? A. Yes. Q. What have your other ranks been? A. I've been a midshipman, warrant officer, petty officer, petty officer, chief petty officer, PO1, PO2, PO3, swamper. Q. Are you regressing? A. I'm going all over the place. Q. Okay. Swamper is the bottom of the -- of the heap, isn't it? A. Well, I wouldn't call it the bottom of the heap, but it's the lowest level. Q. Sure. Have -- have you ever been demoted in rank? A. Yes. Q. From what rank to what rank? A. I was midshipman to a chief petty officer. Q. Today you're ensign. Is that the highest rank you've ever held? A. Correct. Q. You have been in the Sea Org for more than 30 years, as I understand it. Were you ever assigned to
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questions. A. Oh, I'm sorry. Q. I'm going to ask you a simple question. A. Okay. Q. Have you ever worked in the guardian's office? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Warren McShane, who's going to testify on behalf of RTC, was he in the guardian's office? A. You know, I'm not 100 percent sure. I -- I'm not sure. You have to ask him. Q. I definitely will. A. Okay. Q. You know who Linda Hamel is, don't you? A. I do. Q. Who is she? A. She is the commanding officer of Office of Special Affairs International. Q. How is her job different from yours? A. She is overall, I guess, she's in charge of instilling matters. I'm -- I mainly deal with the legal affairs and anything dealing with legal matters, whatever that aspect is. So, I mean, you would say that that's basically what it is. Q. Are you subordinate to Linda Hamel? A. Yes.
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Q. And did Linda Hamel ever work in legal affairs as opposed to other external matters? A. No. Q. And what are the other external matters? A. Well, she -- I don't know all her history because we do go back, I mean, I've been -- I haven't been in LA all the time, but she worked in -- she was at one point the -- what would be called the DCO external, which is a deputy over external matters. Q. I'm asking you, what are external matters other than legal affairs? A. Oh. Examples would be like there's public relations, there's also investigation type matters. Q. And in fairness, Linda Hamel is not really a PR person, is she? A. I don't know what you mean by PR person. Q. Public relations. A. I don't what -- a public relations person? You mean, does she speak, does she -Q. Yeah. Well, has -- has her job emphasis ever been public relations in terms -- well, just as you understand public relations? A. I think so. Q. Okay. A. Yes.
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THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) That's well-known, isn't it? A. I think that's -- that's -- I mean, it wasn't him, only him, but there were other people involved. Q. Right. But, he's filed 40-plus page declarations in court in which he's discussed at great length -A. Right. Q. -- that he was a moving force in dealing with and disbanding the guardian's office, correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Understood. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is that correct? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. And the reason why the guardian's office was disbanded was because it was committing illegal acts in the United States of America? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't think that was the reason. I mean, I can -- I can give you my opinion. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. A. What I think it was. Q. Give me your opinion. MR. STRIEBER: I would ask -- I would object to the form of any question calling for this
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Q. Has she had an area of emphasis, in the years you've known her, within OSA? A. I've known her -- most of the time I've known her, she's been in the -- over -- over the various external affairs type matters. Q. But not legal affairs? A. Yes, definitely. I mean, she's been -- she was a commanding officer when I knew her back in the '90s at certain times, and also in the 2000 -- between 2000, 2006, I wasn't -- I wasn't in LA, I was in Florida, and so during that time, I'm not quite sure what position she had. Q. Linda Hamel was in the guardian's office at one time, wasn't she? A. I'm not -- I mean, she may have mentioned that to me in the past, but I'm not -- I'm not sure where she was. I mean, when I arrived in Los Angeles, there was no guardian's office. Q. It had been disbanded, hadn't it? A. It had been, yeah, disbanded, that would be a good -- a way of saying it. Q. In fact, according to Mr. Miscavige, it was disbanded by him working with others in the Church of Scientology? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form.
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layperson's opinion. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. A. Okay. Q. You still have to answer. A. What was the question? Q. Well, you had offered to give your opinion concerning what the guardian's office was doing, and I said go ahead, so that's where we are. A. Okay. Well -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Well, the only thing was that the guardian's office was separate from, was sort of independent from the church, and so it was -- we needed something that was part of the church. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Somewhere we got off-track. The guardian's office was disbanded, correct? A. Correct. Q. Eleven members of the guardian's office went to federal prison, didn't they? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. And tie me into how this has anything to do with jurisdiction. MR. JEFFREY: Why don't you get a copy of our response to the special appearance and you can see. MR. STRIEBER: I just asked you a question.
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MR. JEFFREY: I don't have to educate you. MR. STRIEBER: You started off -MR. JEFFREY: Fair enough. Make your objection and the judge can sort it out later. MR. STRIEBER: I'm asking you, for the record, what does this have to do with the scope of jurisdiction? MR. JEFFREY: I'm referring you in -- to our initial response to the special appearance, which goes into this in great detail, and now I'm doing factual discovery concerning our allegations, okay. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Eleven members of the guardian's office of the Church of Scientology went to federal prison, correct? A. Yes. Q. Including the wife of the founder of the Church of Scientology, Mary Hubbard? A. Yes. I have to clarify one thing, this is a -- I wasn't in the U.S. when all this was happening. Q. Sure. A. I was in Australia, so you're asking me to -what I've read. It's not -- there's no personal experience on this kind of stuff, that's what I'm
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things are important to me in legal. I mean, having the right counsel, making sure that we make the correct arguments, making sure we deal with the issues that come up. I mean, there's a lot, a lot of issues that I have to be responsible for in making sure that we deal with our cases correctly. Q. Is it fair to say that the supreme authority within the Church of Scientology today is David Miscavige? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't answer a question like that. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) How would you describe his position within the Church of Scientology? A. He's the ecclesiastical leader of the religion. Q. That's a pretty important position, isn't it? A. Sure. Q. And how many declarations has he signed under oath in legal matters relating to the Church of Scientology? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: You really want me to answer that question? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yes.
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telling you. Q. Okay. But, this is well-known within scientology, isn't it? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't think so. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) It's well-known within the Office of Special Affairs of the Church of Scientology, the history of the guardian's office, isn't it? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. To some extent. I mean, it depends who was around. There's a lot of new people, it's a long history, it's a long time ago that this happened. A lot of things have changed. So, you know, saying it's -- I mean, you're making something out of something that happened a long, long, long time ago. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Well, you as the Director of Legal Affairs, I'm sure, have very carefully read and studied the declarations that have been filed by David Miscavige in litigation involving the Church of Scientology, haven't you? A. I've read them. Q. Yes. That would be important to you, wouldn't it? A. I don't know about important to me. A lot of
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A. I can't answer it. I don't know how many, I just don't know. Q. Okay. Let's get back on track then. The guardian's office was an office within the Church of Scientology that got involved in illegal activities, and 11 of its members went to federal prison, correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I have to say there was certain individuals at a certain time many, many years ago back in the mid '70s or whenever it was, I don't even know, but it was definitely before the '80s, that this -- that this happened, and you make it sound like it was everybody, which is wrong. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I said 11 members. A. Right. I thought you said -- you added something else to the -- maybe I misunderstood what you said. Q. You know, you're not here today to argue the case, you're just here to answer -A. I understand. Q. -- factual questions. So, if I ask a question that says -- that asks you -MR. STRIEBER: Ray, Ray, skip the lectures, just ask your questions. MR. JEFFREY: Well, the witness is
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being -MR. STRIEBER: Skip the lectures. MR. JEFFREY: -- persistently unresponsive. MR. STRIEBER: Object to nonresponsive, don't lecture. You have to -MR. JEFFREY: Yeah, but I'm not going to let -MR. STRIEBER: -- follow the rules. MR. JEFFREY: -- the witness run roughshod over the deposition. MR. STRIEBER: Ask your next question. MR. JEFFREY: Let me ask the question. MR. STRIEBER: He's not running roughshod. Ask your question. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) The guardian's office was an office within the Church of Scientology that committed illegal activities in the United States, and 11 of its members went to federal prison; isn't that fair? A. And I said to you -MR. JEFFERSON: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: And I said to you that there were certain individuals back in the '70s that had done something wrong, and you make it sound like the
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And then he goes on to say: The authorities indicted 11 people. We conducted internal ecclesiastical justice proceedings that led to the discharge of 800 people. Are the facts that I've just recited, are those correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. And if you're going to confront a witness with a document, allow the witness to see the document. And if you do not, I will instruct him not to answer it. You're referring to a multipage document, reading short quotes out of it and asking him if that is correct, and -- and you're not allowing him to review the document in the entirety, you're not providing opposing counsel with a copy of the document. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Regardless of which office or department of the guardian's office was involved, 11 individuals in some aspect of the guardian's office were indicted and went to federal prison, didn't they? A. I believe so. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. But, although you were involved in the guardian's office, you didn't go to prison, did you? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form.
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guardian's office did it. It was certain individuals. MR. JEFFREY: Objection, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) The guardian's office was an office within the Church of Scientology that committed illegal acts in the United States of America, and 11 of its members went to federal prison; is that true? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't quite understand what you mean by Church of Scientology when you say it that way. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Tell me how you would characterize the organization in which the guardian's office was involved. A. Okay. Well, there was a guardian's office department that -- that was located in California. There was a guardian's office in the UK. And so, as I said, there was sort of departments within areas. That's why when I told you earlier, I was a part of the guardian's office department in Australia. That's what I was trying to explain to you. Q. Well, I understand that. I'm looking at the declaration of David Miscavige from the Wallershine case in 1999, and in paragraph 55, he said: What the GO did was illegal. No real scientologist would ever condone or even consider such conduct.
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THE WITNESS: No. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And you weren't discharged from church staff? A. No. Q. Linda Hamel, who is in charge of the Office of Special Affairs today, was she indicted in connection with her work with the guardian's office? A. No. Q. Did she go to prison? A. No. Q. Was she discharged from the church for her involvement in the guardian's office? A. No. Q. Who's Neil O'Reilly? A. He is staff at the Office of Special Affairs. Q. Was he in the guardian's office? A. I have no idea. Q. Ben Shaw, who is he? A. He is a staff member of the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. Q. In Clearwater, Florida? A. Correct. Q. Was he a member of the guardian's office? A. I don't know. Q. Who would know this?
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A. Who would know whether Ben Shaw -Q. Yeah. Who would know whether Neil O'Reilly, Ben Shaw, Laurisse Stuckenbrock, whether they were in the guardian's office? A. Wow. I mean, I guess people in personnel would know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, you can ask them, I guess. I mean, we're talking about something -I mean, the GO was ended in the late '70s, early '80s, so we're talking about a long time ago. Q. Well, obviously, we could take the deposition of Hamel and O'Reilly and Shaw and Stuckenbrock, but it would be much easier if there was just a human being that could say whether or not they served in the guardian's office. You're saying you don't know of any human being that could answer that question? MR. STRIEBER: Ray, objection, beyond scope of your notice of deposition, and beyond the scope of any topics that you asked to be presented today. You did not present a topic on the guardian issue. And had you done that and put CSI on notice that that was going to be a topic, perhaps we could have found those answers for you. So, this is far beyond the scope of your noticed deposition. MR. JEFFREY: I'm just asking him who would be a person that could answer those questions so
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Q. Okay. Let's go through that and see -A. Okay. Q. -- whether you're the appropriate person here. No. 1: Religious Technology Center's contacts with the State of Texas and the allegations in its special appearance. Do you believe that you're the person at CSI with the most knowledge on that topic? MR. STRIEBER: Objection. That's an inappropriate question on whether he's the person with the most knowledge. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you have knowledge -MR. STRIEBER: The objective of the deposition notice is to put the corporation on notice and then provide a person to testify to those topics to the best of their ability. It's not -MR. JEFFREY: Not to the best of their ability. The corporation and its attorneys have an obligation to educate the witness on the topics listed therein, and in fact, have him review documents, if necessary, et cetera, et cetera. MR. STRIEBER: That's not the question you asked him. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Well, we'll -- we'll continue on then.
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that we can -MR. STRIEBER: That is off the topic. That's beyond the scope of discovery. If you wanted to ask questions about that and get that type of drilled down specific knowledge, you should have put that in the topic of your deposition notice. If you want to later send out an interrogatory asking that question, you're welcome to. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Let's take a little diversion here. This is the Plaintiff's Second Amended Notice of Intent to Take Deposition for the Church of Scientology International. Would you take a look at that? MR. STRIEBER: Do you have an extra copy? Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you see Exhibit A, Mr. Cartwright? A. I do. Q. Do you understand how these organizational deposition notices work, which is we notice the deposition of the organization and tell the organization what we want to talk about, or what we need information on, and the organization identifies the person or persons with the best -- or the best ability to answer that -- those questions. Do you understand that? A. I do.
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you have knowledge, either gathered from elsewhere or your own personal knowledge, concerning item No. 1, which is RTC's contacts with the State of Texas and the allegations in its special appearance? A. Yes. Q. And how do you have that knowledge? A. I have knowledge from my personal experience, and also from -MR. STRIEBER: And do understand that this is subject to the objections that we provided today with respect to reference to, among other things, the RTC and our CSI deposition notice? THE WITNESS: I have personal knowledge and also from talking to people. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Item No. 2 is related in -it's the same sort of category, but it relates to Captain David Miscavige instead of just RTC. Do you see that? A. I see that. I object to the fact that you're calling him Captain David Miscavige. I don't know him as such. Q. Is he a captain? A. I'm an ensign. I'm not called Ensign Allan Cartwright when I walk -- when I'm -- when I'm in my
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office, and so it's -- it's not correct to say Captain David Miscavige. He's Mr. David Miscavige, Chairman of the Board RTC. Q. I realize you have a reason for wanting that to be, but he does carry the rank captain, and therefore, may be referred to as captain. A. The only person that refers to him as captain is yourself, Mr. Jeffrey. No one else in the church refers to him as captain. Q. Is that because the Office of Special Affairs, in its dealing with external matters, like lawsuits and investigations, wants to de-emphasize the role of the Sea Org within the church organization? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't -- can't even -- I don't know how to even answer that question. It's not true, whatever you're saying. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Whatever it is I'm saying, it's not true? A. What -- what you're saying is incorrect because there's no de-emphasizing. The Sea Org is what the Sea Org is. Q. Okay. Do you have knowledge of Captain Miscavige's contacts with the State of Texas and the allegations in his special appearance?
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State of Texas, you have no knowledge one way or the other, do you? A. No, nor would any other person from CSI. Q. What sort of reporting flows from OSA to Captain Miscavige? MR. JEFFERSON: Is it too much to ask that you not refer to him in that manner? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. JEFFERSON: Well, it's my client and I'm going to ask that you not, as a matter of courtesy. The witness has told you no one referred to him like that but you. It's harassment, it's argumentative, so I'm going to ask that you not do it. Are you going to -MR. JEFFREY: I will continue to refer to him as Captain Miscavige. MR. JEFFERSON: Why is it -- what is it that you're going to do that, Mr. Jeffrey? MR. JEFFREY: Because -- because we have laid this out in our pleadings and in declarations. His authority within the Church of Scientology to control every last aspect of the church comes from his rank as captain. MR. JEFFERSON: You can refer to him in a manner that is respectful and civil and not one that
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I have knowledge of Mr. Miscavige's whatever contacts -- the contacts -contacts there are in the State of Texas. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. How often do you meet with Captain Miscavige? A. I haven't met with Mr. Miscavige for -- not that often. It's not that often. He deals with matters concerning orthodox and religion, I deal with external affairs. There's not really an activity that creates meetings. Q. And you're working in Los Angeles, and he's often not even in the same city as you; is that fair? A. I don't keep track of where he is. Q. Okay. So, how would you know what his contacts are with the State of Texas if you're not in his presence by his side on a daily basis? A. I know with regards to -- I've gathered knowledge with regards to CSI's knowledge as to his contacts in the State of Texas. Q. And what -- what have you gathered? A. Well, I know he attended a -- the church opening in Dallas, that's what I've gathered. Q. Okay. But, if he's on the phone every day for two hours a day dealing with matters related to the
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serves your own ends. MR. JEFFREY: Well -MR. JEFFERSON: And if you continue to do it, I will continue to object and I will speak up. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. You may have a running objection, if you like. MR. JEFFERSON: No, I will speak up. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. That's fine. I've lost my -- what was my last question? MR. DUNAGAN: That you were through. MR. JEFFREY: I think I -- I think I said that -- that concludes the deposition. MR. DUNAGAN: Yes. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. I have it. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) What sort of reporting flows from OSA to Captain Miscavige himself? A. Again, I'm just going to tell you, his name is not Captain Miscavige, it's Mr. Miscavige, or you can call him COB RTC, which is what I know him as. Q. You know him as COB, don't you? A. That's correct. Q. And what's a COB order? A. What's a COB order? Q. Yes. A. I don't know what a COB order is. Sorry, I
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don't know. Q. Have you ever received a COB order? A. No. Q. Have you ever filed or responded with a compliance report? A. No. Q. You've never heard, in your 30-year career with the Church of Scientology, of a COB order? A. No. Q. Does Captain Miscavige regularly issue orders to personnel that are delivered in writing, and then the personnel must respond to the order with what's called a compliance report? A. I'm, again, going to say that his name is not Captain Miscavige. MR. JEFFERSON: I'm going to -- I'm going to join in that objection. He is not referred to as Captain Miscavige by anybody but you. You're using it in a derisive manner to serve your own needs, to serve your own purposes in this deposition, and I'm going to speak up every time you do, okay? MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: If you can point to one other place in the public where Mr. Miscavige is referred to as Captain, I'll -Page 43
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MR. JEFFREY: That is my intent, to communicate the real authority. MR. JEFFERSON: Your intent is to argue, your intent to is to use the term to argue your position. That is not how he's referred to by anybody but you. And I'm not going to allow it without speaking up. I'm going to speak up every time. MR. JEFFREY: Well, we will demonstrate very clearly in the case from numerous witnesses that he is referred to as Captain Miscavige, so I have no qualms whatsoever about referring to him as Captain Miscavige and -MR. JEFFERSON: I'm asking that you not -MR. JEFFREY: -- it's nothing out of order. MR. JEFFERSON: -- refer to my client in that manner and every time that you do, I will interrupt. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Well, we'll -- if you're going to persist in interrupting, then we'll just have to shut down the deposition and go get a ruling from the court. MR. JEFFERSON: That's your choice. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So, I did ask a question, and
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MR. JEFFREY: In the public? MR. JEFFERSON: Any -- any other public forum where Mr. Miscavige is referred to as captain, bring it, let's take a look at it. Otherwise, it is you being insulting and for no other purpose, and it is improper in this deposition. MR. JEFFREY: It is insulting to refer to someone by his rank, which is the highest rank within the organization? MR. JEFFERSON: It is improper to refer to somebody in a manner in which they do not wish to be referred. It's not your call. You can't just call him devil Miscavige, or any other name that is insulting or is -- or is derogatory. MR. JEFFREY: It is derogatory -MR. JEFFERSON: In your -- in your -MR. JEFFREY: -- to call him Captain? MR. JEFFERSON: Or that is not in your interest. MR. JEFFREY: I don't understand how it's insulting or derogatory to call someone by the highest rank within a multinational organization from which he derives his authority. MR. JEFFERSON: Totally depends upon your intent in using the term, doesn't it?
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you haven't answered the question other than to argue with me over the use of captain. So, would you answer the question? A. I don't remember the question. Q. Reports flowing from OSA to Miscavige. MR. STRIEBER: Is that a question? That sounds like a statement, an incomplete statement. What is your question? MR. JEFFREY: I've asked the question twice. He just wanted a reminder. I gave him a reminder. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you remember the question now? A. No. Could you repeat -Q. Okay. A. -- repeat the question, please? Q. What reports flow from OSA to Captain Miscavige? MR. JEFFERSON: I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt. You've used the term "captain" again for your own purposes, not for any others. There is not a -- you've not presented a single document, either within the organization or from outside of the organization, any organization related to scientology, that refers to Mr. Miscavige as captain. You use the
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term for your own purposes and in a manner solely to advance your argument about his position, and I object to your use -- your continued use of the term. You can ask this witness question after question without using that term and you can get through the deposition. That is all I'm asking of you, Mr. Jeffrey. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Is David Miscavige captain of the Sea Organization? A. No. Q. What -- does he have a rank within the Sea Organization? A. He has a rank, just like I have a rank. Q. And what is his rank? A. From what I understand, he has a rank of captain. Q. Okay. Is that an insulting term? A. I don't know about being insulting, it's just an incorrect term. Q. According to you? A. Insulting? Q. Yeah, that it's -- no, you said it's incorrect. It's incorrect according to you. A. What I said to you was I don't know him as Captain David Miscavige. I've never heard that being used.
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A. In the levels of ranks, yes. Q. But, you are saying that the ranks are meaningless in terms of authority? A. Totally. Q. What is command intention? A. It's what is wanted to be done, the -- the -it's the prime intention, the important intention to get done. Q. And command intention, that's a term from the Sea Organization, isn't it? A. It is a term that's used, yes. Q. And it has the word "command," and is someone within the Sea Organization required to respond appropriately to command intention? A. Well, it's -- I guess so, yes. Q. We've been going for almost an hour, let's take a little break. A. Okay. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. We're off the record at 10:22 a.m. (Recess from 10:22 to 10:35.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 10:35 a.m. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Mr. Cartwright, I'm going to hand you my trusty iPad and show you something and ask
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Q. Have you ever seen him in his captain's uniform? A. I've seen him in his Sea Org uniform. Q. And is it a captain's uniform with captain's rank? A. You know, I'm not sure. Q. Do you have a uniform? A. Yes. Q. And so, what you're saying is that everyone within this group called the Sea Organization has a rank, but the ranks are meaningless? A. Ranks -- these -- you have to understand what the Sea Org is. It's a religious order, and these are -- these are honorary positions that are given to someone because of longevity and what they've done for the religion. That's all it is. Q. Is there any chain of authority from rank to rank? Does a captain have authority in connection with an ensign? A. No. Q. There's no authority that derives from that? A. None whatsoever. Just to give you an example, I'm an ensign, Linda Hamel is a midshipman, I have a senior rank to her. Q. And both of those ranks are beneath captain?
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you to scroll through that for me, please. Tell us what it is. A. It's -- well, it says: Inspector general network bulletin No. 44. All scientologists, Chairman of the Board, Religious Technology Center. Q. Okay. A. Dated 11 September 2001. Q. So 9/11 of -- of 2001? A. Right. Q. Momentous day. A. Yes. Q. What is -- what is an inspector general bulletin? A. It's a bulletin that's been put out by the inspector general network. Q. By the inspector general network? A. That's what it says. Q. And it's addressed to all scientologists. Is that all scientologists in the world? A. Well, it says "all scientologists," so it would include the world. Q. Do you know how to scan down on the page with your finger on the screen? A. I'm not sure. Sorry. Okay. Q. Just go to the end, please.
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MR. STRIEBER: Do you want to go to the very last page of the document? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. Where it's signed off, the message ends. THE WITNESS: I don't know. Now I'm into something else. MR. STRIEBER: You're good. THE WITNESS: It says -- oops. Okay. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) How does Mr. Miscavige, as you say he's to be called, how does he sign off that report to all scientologists in the world? A. On that particular issue? Q. Yes. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Okay. On that particular issue, it says Captain David Miscavige, Chairman of the Board, Religious Technology Center. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. There's nothing insulting or derogatory about him calling himself Captain David Miscavige, is there? A. I never said. Q. Okay. Well, the attorney for RTC said that. A. Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: I said -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is there anything insulting
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other scientologists have ever responded to him as Captain Miscavige? A. All I can say is every communication I've seen, every discussion I've had with -- with public or other staff members, Sea Org members, I've never heard that being used, ever. Q. Except as we've seen here, on his very own reports, to all scientologists in the world, he calls himself Captain David Miscavige, correct? A. You asked me a different question. You asked me a question about what -- how other people refer him to -- refer him as, and I answered you. I said nobody refers to him as Captain David Miscavige. Q. To your knowledge? A. As I said, to my knowledge. Q. Yes? A. Right. Q. But, he does refer to himself as Captain David Miscavige? A. He put out an issue. Q. An issue? A. Yes. Q. There aren't many, many issues with him signing off as Captain David Miscavige? A. I really don't know.
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or derogatory about that? MR. JEFFERSON: If you'll allow me because I am the one that said it and you brought that up for me, your use of the term is what is insulting and wrong, your use of the term -MR. JEFFREY: And you asked me if -MR. JEFFERSON: -- in this context. MR. JEFFREY: -- if I could show you one public forum in which -MR. JEFFERSON: Someone else referred to him as Captain Miscavige. MR. JEFFREY: Oh, he can refer to himself as Captain Miscavige -MR. JEFFERSON: As we've discussed -MR. JEFFREY: -- but no one else may refer to him in that way? MR. JEFFERSON: As we've discussed, he holds the rank within the religion. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is it your testimony, Mr. Cartwright, that no one in the Church of Scientology, in any of its many organizations, has ever referred to David Miscavige as Captain Miscavige? A. Based on my knowledge, yes. Q. Well, you would have no personal knowledge, would you, as to whether or not any of the thousands of
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Q. You would have received this, wouldn't you? A. I received that, yes. Q. Would you think there was anything peculiar about his signing off as Captain David Miscavige? A. I didn't even notice it. Q. When was the last time you were in the personal presence of Captain Miscavige? MR. JEFFERSON: I'm going to, again, ask that you not refer to him in that manner. We can argue, and I understand we're going to disagree. He's my client and I'm -- it doesn't impede your examination of this witness at all to avoid referring to him in that manner. I'm going to ask that you not do it. MR. JEFFREY: And I'm going to refuse. MR. JEFFERSON: Well, and the only reason that you will refuse is so that we can have this back and forth every time you do it because we will. MR. JEFFREY: You're the one choosing to have the back and forth. MR. JEFFERSON: You're the one choosing by using the term. I'm not impeding you from examining this witness in any manner that you wish other than referring to Mr. Miscavige as Captain Miscavige, which you're insisting to do to win -- to win the argument at the moment, and we're not -- you're not going to win the
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argument. We're going -- we're going to have this same -- this same conversation every time, or you can proceed with your examination of this witness, save the argument for later, tell the judge -- tell the judge that I'm being obstreperous because I don't like you referring to my client in that manner in this deposition. There's no reason why you have to use that term to competently examine this witness about everything you need to examine him on in this deposition. MR. JEFFREY: Calling an individual by his rank, which is the highest rank in the organization in question, is not in any way derogatory or insulting, and what you're trying to do is to argue your case, which is that his rank as captain in the Sea Organization is meaningless, and that we must refer to him as Mr. Miscavige, when he himself, as I have just demonstrated, communicates to all scientologists in the world as Captain David Miscavige. So, it is completely inappropriate for you to tell me what -- it would be like in a -- in a case, if a fellow has a Ph.D. or a doctorate of some sort and I'm calling him doctor, and everyone else refers to him as mister, and I'm not allowed to call him doctor. It's ridiculous.
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you, I wouldn't use the term. I'm using a term which is in no way derogatory and is, in fact, reflective of reality, and just if you want to refer to him as Mr. Miscavige, you're entitled to. If I want to refer to him as Captain Miscavige -- and by the way, there will be many other witnesses in this case who will refer to him as -MR. JEFFERSON: You've said so. MR. JEFFREY: -- Captain Miscavige. MR. JEFFERSON: You've said so. Avoid it for now and we don't have to have this conversation every time. MR. JEFFREY: Will note. MR. STRIEBER: I would like to add an objection on behalf of CSI in that your use of the term "captain" is misconstruing the facts, and so you're assuming certain facts not in evidence. And it's you that actually, by the use of the term "captain," are ignoring this witness's prior testimony that that particular name captain confers upon Mr. Miscavige no authority whatsoever. And your purpose in using the term "captain" is an attempt by you to put into evidence, in every question that you ask, an argument on your behalf that that term "captain" confers authority over my
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MR. JEFFERSON: There is no question -MR. JEFFREY: It's ridiculous. MR. JEFFERSON: Mr. Jeffrey, there is no question that Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical leader, the leader, the religious authority, the highest authority in the -- in the Church of Scientology, the highest person that holds that position. Isn't that enough? You don't -MR. JEFFREY: What you're trying to hide is that he is the highest authority in the one organization that runs through all of the church corporations, and that's the reality of this case and -MR. JEFFERSON: I'm not hiding anything. MR. JEFFREY: Yes, you are. MR. JEFFERSON: You're the one using -MR. JEFFREY: Yes, you are. MR. JEFFERSON: -- the term in a manner that I've objected to. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: I'm asking that you -you proceed with the deposition, avoid using the term, indulge me. You can get everything that you want from this witness without using that term. MR. JEFFREY: If I was using a term that was in any way derogatory, I would more than indulge
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client CSI, which it does not. MR. JEFFREY: We have evidence in this case -MR. STRIEBER: I don't want to hear what evidence you have. MR. JEFFREY: -- that COB -MR. STRIEBER: I don't need to know what evidence you have. Go get your evidence and put it in the record. Quit saying you have witnesses that say that. You're -- you're making a record that's probably, over our objection, going to find its way to the media, and you're putting things in this record that's going to find its way to the media by saying I have witnesses that do this, I have documents that say that. Take a proper deposition, confront this witness with the evidence you have, and ask him questions about it assuming, of course, it's within this course and scope. But, I object to form to the use of the term "captain," and if you'll give me a running objection for the purposes -MR. JEFFREY: I'll be glad to give that to you. MR. STRIEBER: -- of which -MR. JEFFREY: I'd be glad to give that to any -15 (Pages 54 to 57)
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MR. STRIEBER: -- on behalf of CSI. MR. JEFFREY: -- everybody in the room, if you want it, you can have it. You know, we could go on a neutral basis, but I hesitate to do it because to me it sounds insulting. We could refer to him as Miscavige. I would not normally do that because that does not sound polite. MR. JEFFERSON: You can't say Mr. Miscavige? MR. JEFFREY: No, I can -- I can say Captain Miscavige. MR. JEFFERSON: Why -- why doesn't mister work? MR. JEFFREY: Why doesn't captain work? MR. JEFFERSON: Because that is -because you're imbuing the term with meaning that doesn't apply here. Call him Mr. Miscavige. Let's say call him David Miscavige if you don't think he rises to the term of mister. MR. WIEGAND: Lamont, he refers to himself in written communications -MR. JEFFERSON: We've discussed that, Marc, you were out of the room. MR. WIEGAND: -- as Captain Miscavige. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) What reporting flows from the
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gone from the Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige? A. Well, information has gone to him. Q. I'm talking about reports. A. I know, that's what I told you. I already answered, no reports go to him. Q. And then I followed up with the question: Have there ever been reports made to David Miscavige from the Office of Special Affairs? A. Since, I mean, from the beginning of time? Q. Sure. If you were aware of them. A. Well, I thought the terms of this search was, I was looking for anything from 2009 on, so aren't we going from 2009 on? Q. Well, one of the topics of your deposition notice is David Miscavige's authority over and interaction with the Office of Special Affairs. I'm just trying to understand. Was there a time when a daily report went from the Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige and then that was terminated? If so, tell me about that. If your testimony is there's never been reporting that's gone from the Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige, then I need to know that. A. No daily report was sent to Mr. Miscavige. Q. And how would you know that?
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Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige in wherever he may be located at any given time? A. I don't know what you mean by what reporting. Q. Yes. A. I don't know what you mean by that. Q. You understand the word "what"? A. What, sorry? Q. You understand what the word "what" means, don't you? A. What reporting, I said. Q. Yes. A. What is -- what do you mean by reporting? Q. I don't know. What would you mean by reporting? A. That's what I'm asking you. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I'm asking you in the broadest sense and then we can narrow it down. If there are 100 different kinds of reports that go to David Miscavige from OSA, I would want to know those, and I'd expect you to list them. But, there's nothing confusing about asking you what reports go from the Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige. A. No reports go. Q. Okay. Have there ever been reports that have
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A. Because I've been around for many years. Q. Have you -- now, I know that you read everything ever written by Mark "Marty" Rathbun, don't you? A. No. Q. Your declarations indicate otherwise. Don't you have notebooks and notebooks of all of his writing, and you've reviewed them and summarized them, and all those sorts of things? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Not all of his writings, no. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Well, as the Director of Legal Affairs for the Office of Special Affairs, have you read Mr. Rathbun's affidavit from this very case? A. That, I have. Q. Okay. Did you read his description of the daily reporting that he delivered from the Office of Special Affairs to David Miscavige personally? Did you read about that? A. Yes. Q. Were you ever there at any of those times described in his affidavit? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I mean, I have a big
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problem with that -- that affidavit. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) That wasn't my question. A. I know, but that paragraph that you're talking about -Q. Okay. Your lawyer can ask you all the questions he wants. MR. STRIEBER: Don't interrupt him, he's trying to answer your question. MR. JEFFREY: He's being unresponsive. MR. STRIEBER: He hasn't finished his answer, how do you know? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Finish your answer. A. Okay. I mean, that paragraph he talks about, Mr. Rathbun says, 27 years I was doing this, 27 years. I mean, he knows himself that he was -- he blew in -- in 1993, he was on the Freewinds for two years, he was an auditor auditing for a number of years, he had junior positions. It's just -- I mean, the declaration itself is false. All I can say about it is, you know, he makes these outlandish statements that just -- that this is how it was for 27 years. Q. Well, what he said was for 22 years. A. One of the ones, he says 27 years. I think he said -Q. For 22 years, my schedule was to wake up at
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David Miscavige, and that was Mr. Rathbun and Mr. Render, correct? A. That's what he says. Q. That's what he describes. You were excluded from that, according to his account, correct? A. According to his account, it's false. Q. Yeah, but according to his account, I just want to establish that that's what he says, that you were excluded from that, along with everyone else in OSA. A. It says what it says. Q. Okay. And that's what it says? A. That's what you said so. Q. Okay. A. It says -Q. Do you know of any personal knowledge whether or not that is incorrect? A. That -- I can tell you right now, it's incorrect, it has to be incorrect. Mr. Rathbun was not even on any post -- he wasn't even on a post during the number of years. He had no post within the Freewinds on the ship sailing around the Caribbean -- Caribbean. Mr. Miscavige was thousands of miles away. I just can't -- it's just -- what I'm trying to tell you is the declaration is false.
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least one hour before David Miscavige's scheduled wake up time so that I could collect all important information on any matter of concern to him being handled by the OSA network. That's not 27 years, is it? A. I think if you go to the first paragraph of the declaration, he says 27 years. Q. Yeah, but -- but the facts he's stating there, he's talking about for -A. Twenty two years. Q. -- 22 years what he did. A. We can go through the 22 years and I can tell you also, it's not 22 years whatever he's saying. Q. Okay. A. It's just impossible, that's all I'm saying. Q. In paragraph 18 of his affidavit, it says: Between 1982 and 2004, it was my job to act as a go-between for Miscavige and OSA. The manner in which we shielded Miscavige was elaborate. Much of Miscavige's control of OSA was done off the record. Every evening, I would receive an intelligence briefing in writing from OSA, et cetera. You have read his affidavit, haven't you? A. Yes. Yes, I have. Q. And what he describes is that there were two people who were in the loop, so to speak, on this with
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Q. Well, what you're -- it sounds like what you're telling me is, that there were periods of time when that procedure could not have been going on because they were physically remote from each other, correct? A. All I'm telling you is just by the simple statement that it's false. Who knows what else is false there, that's all I'm telling you. Q. Let's see if we can establish this. You have never typed up any reports that were then sent directly to David Miscavige, true? A. I have sent him information, yes. Q. What information have you sent him? A. In 2006, I wanted to tell him that we -- that the church had -- was able to get the right to conduct marriages in Scotland. I thought it was very good news and he would appreciate it, and he was very happy to receive it. Q. But, in terms of investigations and operations being conducted by the Office of Special Affairs, you have not done reporting to him on that? A. No, we don't do that. Q. Okay. Does Linda Hamel report directly to David Miscavige? A. No, she does not. Q. How do you know that?
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A. I have talked to her. Q. Where is her office in relation to yours? A. She's on the 12th floor. Q. And you're on what floor? A. Tenth floor. But I'm not in the office a lot. Q. How many times a day? A. Oh, God, sometimes I'm sitting there for maybe two hours. Q. Okay. A. At a time. Q. And Sea Org members work long hours, don't they? A. Well, I guess, in comparison -- I don't know. In comparison to what? Q. What's your average day? How many hours do you work? A. I start at -- I start at 8:30 and I will work most of the day and into the evening, and then there's study, and so I finish at 10:45. Q. 8:30 in the morning until 10:35 in the evening? A. 10:45. Q. Forty five in the evening. And so, two hours out of that -- out of that day, sometimes you might actually be up there with Linda Hamel?
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on the phone about? A. I remember one time there was -- actually, it wasn't speaking. It was communication sent him -- sent to him concerning the -- in Holland, we received religious recognition a few months back and she wrote him a communication about it, which I saw and she showed me the response. Q. So, as far as you know, there has -- is not and never has been any routine reporting to David Miscavige from OSA concerning investigations, such as the investigation concerning the Rathbuns in this case? A. Correct. Q. As the Rathbun -- I'm floundering around for the term. What would you describe the activities in the Church of Scientology, Office of Special Affairs related to Rathbun as, the Rathbun operation, or the Rathbun file, or the -- I don't want to use the wrong terminology. A. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, sorry. Q. I'm just trying to have some way to shorthand. I was going to ask you what involvement you had in the Rathbun operation over the last four or five years. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And I didn't want to use the term "Rathbun operation" if you don't like that term.
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A. And also, phone calls with her. Q. Sure. A. I meet with her probably -- I meet with her for at least an hour every morning going over matters, and it's quite an extensive meeting we have. And then we meet again after lunch and I'll see her in the evening. We work very close. She relies on me heavily because I have a lot of legal experience and because I deal with legal matters. And so, I'm -- I'm the person that is the one responsible for anything dealing with anything to do with legal matters. Q. But, there's plenty of time in the day for her to either type and send reports to David Miscavige, or to speak with him about investigations and things like that going on if she so chose and if he desired that? A. Well, I asked her about that and she said it didn't happen. Q. What didn't happen? A. What you just said, typing up reports about investigations. Q. And what about speaking on the phone? A. Speaking on the phone? Q. Yes, with David Miscavige. A. Same thing, about investigations, no. Q. What sorts of things does she speak with him
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How would -- how should we refer to it? A. It was -Q. Investigation? A. Investigation. Q. Okay. What -- what involvement did you have in the Rathbun investigation over the last five years? A. I'm -- I'm the -- I oversaw the investigation that was being done, the working with counsel concerning the investigation. Q. What counsel? A. A number of counsel, Elliot Abelson, Eric Liebermann, Bill Drescher, Minnie Yingling, Bill Hart. Q. Who's that? A. He's a corporate lawyer. Burt Dikesler. Q. Now, are we talking about all before this lawsuit was filed against the Church of Scientology? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Anyone else? A. There may be others, but I'm not sure. Q. Okay. As investigators and other persons connected with the Church of Scientology were in Texas concerning the Rathbun investigation, what reports were going back and forth, instructions and reports back and forth between OSA and the folks on the ground in Texas? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form.
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THE WITNESS: When you say "folks," what do you mean the folks? Sorry. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I'm trying to be as general as possible, human beings in Texas in any way involved with the Rathbun investigation. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. You need to be more specific. I mean, I don't know what folks are. MR. JEFFREY: I said human beings, how about that? MR. STRIEBER: Same thing. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Human beings involved with the Rathbun investigation. How complicated is that? A. Okay. Q. You got it? A. So, that's the investigators you're talking about? Q. Any -- anyone where you -- persons involved with The Squirrel Busters, was there reporting going back and forth there? A. Well, that's not investigators. Q. Okay. That's -- that's why I started off trying to ask about how you wanted to describe this. So, you have the Rathbun investigation. What would you call the Rathbun Squirrel Busters operation?
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Q. And then they had vehicles and golf carts and cameras and all that sort of thing that was being paid for by OSA, wasn't it? A. Not all of it, no. Q. Okay. What was being paid by OSA? A. There was paying of the cameraman, there was a person who made sure that Mr. Rathbun didn't cause any violence on any of the protesters. Q. Who was that? A. His name was, I think, Ralph Gomez. And then there was, I think, some of the -- maybe some of the flights were paid for, but a number of these scientologists pay their own way. And I know John Allen paid a lot of his own way because they -- they wanted to communicate to Mr. Rathbun about what conduct he was involved in, and that it was totally inappropriate for somebody in that position within the church. Q. Was there an element of harassment to The Squirrel Busters activities? A. Not at all. In fact -Q. So if -- if -MR. STRIEBER: Let him finish his answer. THE WITNESS: In fact, they made a point of not communicating with him. It was actually Mr. Rathbun that came out and started harassing and, you
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A. Well, they were scientologists that were involved in -- sent protesting and documenting the activities of Rathbun being involved in perverting the auditing, the services, the counseling services the church does. It was his practice of perverting it, and so -Q. I was hoping to get a shorthand term, not a -not a long-term. What -- what do you call The Squirrel Buster, if there's the Rathbun investigation, what shall we call The Squirrel Busters? A. We -- I guess you can call them protesters. Q. Some of them were having expenses paid by the Church of Scientology, correct? A. Church of Scientology International? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. And some of them were actually being paid by the week for their time down there, weren't they? A. Some were being given support like that, yes. Q. Okay. And there was equipment to be rented and houses to be leased and all that sort of thing, correct? A. I think a house, but I think that's correct. Q. Where The Squirrel Busters were living? A. Yes.
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know, being actually violent, too. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So, if -- if Mr. and Mrs. Rathbun went out after dark to walk down along the waterfront holding hands with their dogs, and The Squirrel Busters would immediately show up on their golf carts and begin saying things to them, that's not harassment in your eyes? A. No. Q. Is there anytime that they could leave the house that would be off-limits to The Squirrel Busters or to the Church of Scientology International where they should be left alone in peace? A. I can tell you right now, I mean, I saw videos of The Squirrel Busters doing their videoing quite a distance away, and then Mr. Rathbun and his wife purposely came out and were yelling at them, putting things in front of their face, interfering with their ability to do their documentary. And so, many times they -- I mean, I just don't -- I mean, it looked like to me that they were getting into -- into their face rather than what you say the other way around. MR. JEFFREY: Objection, nonresponsive. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Were there any times that the Rathbuns could leave their home to go out to dinner, to go walk in the evening with their dog, that in the eyes
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of the -- the Church of Scientology that was off-limits, that they should be left alone and not followed and not harassed? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't answer you anytime. I don't understand what you're even talking about because, obviously, they could go whenever they wanted to. It wasn't like somebody was trying to stop them from going somewhere. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) No. I asked, is there anytime where they could go out and not be followed or spoken to, whether it was before dawn in the morning to take a walk, or in the evening to take a walk, or to go to a restaurant and eat, was there anytime that was off-limits to just, hey, leave them alone? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Now, you're aware of at least one house down there in the Rathbuns' neighborhood that was leased by the Church of Scientology International, which was that? MR. STRIEBER: Where -- where are we going in terms of the scope of the deposition and it being related to jurisdiction?
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explain this one. I'm not going to spend this deposition explaining myself. I think our pleadings -MR. SPENCER: Fair enough. MR. JEFFREY: -- are adequate. If, at the direction of David Miscavige, CSI, through OSA, its Office of Special Affairs, rented property in the State of Texas, I think that would be relevant -MR. SPENCER: That's a -MR. JEFFREY: -- to jurisdiction. MR. SPENCER: That's a great question. Why don't you just ask that one. MR. STRIEBER: Then ask those questions. Not that question because it's compound. You threw a lot of people in there. MR. JEFFREY: I liked the question that I asked. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Which was, did the Church of Scientology International rent a house in Ingleside on the Bay, the Rathbuns' neighborhood, for The Squirrel Busters? A. No. Q. Okay. Who rented it? A. David Lubow. Q. And David Lubow, if he rented a house down in Ingleside on the Bay, whether it was to put surveillance
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MR. SPENCER: And we don't want you to do an end-around on the prohibition on discovery on the anti-SLAPP. MR. JEFFREY: Well, your co-counsel made a big statement saying that you-all weren't attempting to shut down, under the anti-SLAPP rules, discovery in this case, so are you changing your position? MR. HULL: No, no. That's not what was said. MR. SPENCER: No, no, that's not what we said. What we said was that the -- that the -MR. JEFFREY: You weren't saying anything. You were -MR. SPENCER: Ricardo -- Ricardo was saying it. And what he said was that we had agreed that you could take these jurisdictional depositions and we weren't going to go back on our word on that. That's a lot different from saying you get to use the jurisdictional depositions to do discovery on the anti-SLAPP. We -- we're not going to permit that. And I think that's all we're asking is you're talking about what CSI rented a house or leased a house down there, how does that relate to your jurisdiction? MR. JEFFREY: I'm not going to -- I'll
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cameras in or to house Squirrel Busters, that's something that would ultimately be charged back to some scientology church organization, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Which church organization? A. CSI. Q. And specifically handled by the Office of Special Affairs, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So, if that activity was being directed by David Miscavige, then David Miscavige, acting through the Office of Special Affairs and then its investigator rented property in Ingleside on the Bay, Texas? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) If. You understand what a hypothetical question is, don't you? A. If. Well, it didn't happen. Q. If it did? A. It didn't. Q. Are you refusing to answer a hypothetical question? A. No. I'm just telling you, that's my answer to your hypothetical question is the fact that it never
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happened because I know what the facts are concerning how that all happened. Q. So, you're refusing to answer a hypothetical question? MR. STRIEBER: No, he's answered it. MR. JEFFREY: By refusing to accept the hypothetical. MR. STRIEBER: He's given you an answer. You may not like it, but he hasn't refused to answer it. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. You signed an affidavit or declaration in the Paul Marrick and Greg Arnold case in Texas, didn't you? A. Correct. Q. Let me find a copy of that for you in all these folders. MR. SPENCER: Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) We'll have that marked Deposition Exhibit 1 to your deposition. (Exhibit No. 1 marked.) Q. Have you gotten a chance to look over Exhibit 1, Mr. Cartwright? A. I have. Q. Do you see paragraph four? A. Yes. Q. And this -- this affidavit signed by you under
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Q. Yes. A. He's a lawyer, he's a lawyer working for -for me. Q. Yes. A. Working for CSI. Q. And then he, just like he has a paralegal, or a secretary, or a runner, or an expert, or any other type of assistant, he retained this private investigator, correct? A. Yes. Q. On behalf of CSI, his client? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And back in 2012, when you were claiming that CSI had no connection with Texas to be subject to jurisdiction in the state, you didn't reveal, did you, that CSI had been, through its attorneys, using private investigators in Texas since 1997, at least? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Well, this says: CSI has not maintained a place of business -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) The last sentence is what I asked you about. A. -- in Texas. CSI does not have any offices,
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oath in September of 2012 stated in the last sentence of that paragraph: CSI does not have any officers, directors, staff, employees, servants or agents in Texas. Did I read that correctly? A. That's correct. Q. And it's true, isn't it, that CSI and its Office of Special Affairs have been using the services of a private investigator, Monty Drake, in Texas since 1997? A. No. Q. When did it first begin to use the services of Monty Drake? A. Well, let me correct that. What I'm saying is, Mr. Abelson had hired Monty Drake, and Mr. Abelson was using his services, and we were paying -- we were paying Mr. Abelson to retain Mr. Drake. Q. So, your attorney, who is your agent, correct? A. Well -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. SPENCER: Form. THE WITNESS: I mean, in the normal sense of the word -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yes. A. -- legal -- a legal issue?
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no offices, no directors, no staff, no employees, no servants or agents in Texas. I didn't consider that to be agents in Texas, if that's what you're trying to say. Q. So, then Monty Drake is not in any way, shape or form an agent of the Church of Scientology International, is he? A. Not what I -- what I understand, no. Q. Okay. And you're the Director of Legal Affairs for the Church of Scientology International? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And I realize that you say that these private investigators that are out there doing work for the Office of Special Affairs of the Church of Scientology International are retained by attorneys, but the Church of Scientology International receives the reports from the investigators, doesn't it? A. There's no reports from the investigators. Monty Drake didn't do reports. Q. Ever? A. Ever. Q. You had no written reporting from Monty Drake back to the Church of Scientology International, whether from -- whether through an attorney or not? A. During the Rathbun investigation, none whatsoever.
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Q. What about before the Rathbun investigation? A. We're going to go beyond 2009? Q. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how things operate, and if they changed, why? A. Well, I wasn't searching for records beyond 2009. Q. Oh, you're saying you've done a search and there are none? A. Correct. I mean, sorry, before 2009, not beyond. I -- I correct myself. Q. But, so just going back to 2009, however, you're saying that you've done a search, and there are no reports? A. No reports for Monty Drake, no. Q. Did you check with Elliot Abelson to see if he had any reports? A. Yes. Q. And did he? A. No. Can I just get some more coffee? Q. Absolutely. A. Great. MR. STRIEBER: I'll get you some. THE WITNESS: Okay. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. THE WITNESS: Heavy cream.
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statements were that they reported frequently, often more than once a day, directly to Linda Hamel by telephone? Do you remember that? A. Actually, when I talked to Linda Hamel about that, it was -- the communications were few and far between. Q. I'm just asking you if you recall, as Director of Legal Affairs, what Paul Marrick and Greg Arnold were claiming? A. I don't remember that at all. Q. Okay. A. I mean, we sat together in the mediation, never came up there. Q. Are you aware of whether or not David Miscavige disciplines staff of RTC? A. Disciplines staff for RTC? Q. Yes. A. Well, there's the ecclesiastical justice procedure, so there's a set LRH policy on how that is done. And so, he may request someone to be -- have a committee of evidence, or a court of ethics, or all these kind of matters would be -- he would -- he could ask for it to be done, require it to be done, it would be done. Q. But, it would not be appropriate for him, as
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MR. STRIEBER: That's all right. No, no, you can stay on. THE WITNESS: Yeah, with cream, yeah. MR. STRIEBER: You can go -- keep going. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Is it the Church of Scientology International's position that all private investigators working on behalf of the church are retained and supervised by attorneys? A. Yes. Q. You recall the Paul Marrick and Greg Arnold case, don't you? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall their statements that they never once dealt with an attorney other than at some point, because of payment difficulties, they received checks from the attorney's office? A. It was still under the supervision of counsel. Q. But, they never actually talked with them or got any instructions from them? A. I don't have any specifics what they talked to them, I don't know. Q. Did you ever speak with Paul Marrick or Greg Arnold? A. No. Q. Do you -- do you understand that their
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Chairman of the Board, to be giving instructions to employees as they go about their duties, and then disciplining them himself directly if they failed to carryout his orders -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. -- would it? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't understand your question. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. I thought you were being careful in your answer there to make clear that as Chairman of the Board, he could give instructions or see that something would be done on a high -- high level. A. I'm not -Q. As opposed to clean that up over there, and if you don't do it, you're being disciplined in some way. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Where are we -- what are we talking about here? What -- I think you said RTC. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) RTC. A. Yeah, I'm not -- I can't really talk about RTC. Q. Okay. And that's all I'm trying to find out, what do you claim that you know about or don't know about. So, you -- do you know whether or not David
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Miscavige instructs in their daily duties and even disciplines employees of RTC? MR. STRIEBER: Objection. THE WITNESS: I don't know. MR. STRIEBER: It's beyond the scope -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. MR. STRIEBER: -- of this particular deposition. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you know whether or not David Miscavige gives instructions to and originates discipline for employees of the Church of Scientology International? A. He is the ecclesiastical leader of the religion. He would point out if there's somebody who is -- who is -- as an example, who was -- he's creating a film or some church publication, and on the scriptures, and the scriptures were altered and incorrect, he would require that CSI look into it and ask them to look into -- tell them to look into it, you know, this guy is messing up, he's doing something altering the scriptures. And so, there would be -investigation would be done, justice action. Q. And how would -A. Committee of evidence. Q. How would the chain of command work on that?
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"Marty" Rathbun? A. We have them in -- there's these -- what do you call them -- rolling file cabinet -- cabinets type of things. Q. Are they on tracks? A. Tracks, yeah, that's right. Q. So, you can hold more -- you can hold a lot of file cabinets in a -A. Right. Correct. Q. -- in a limited space by moving them around on the tracks? A. Yes. And on computer. Q. Okay. A. On computer, as well. Q. And the -- how much physical space in terms of file cabinets do these materials relating to Mr. and possibly Mrs. Rathbun, how much do they take up? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. I can't tell you how much. I mean -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) A whole -- a whole rolling -A. No, no. Q. You, or your attorney said in court in this case, that you had, I think, I'm going to guess the number, 16 or 17 binders, or was it more than that, of
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Who would he tell? A. Who would he tell? Q. Yeah. Does he contact OSA? A. No. Q. Who would he contact? A. It could be -- you're asking for hypothetical here? Q. Yeah. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) You just gave the example -A. I did. Q. -- and I'm asking you then to flush out your example that you gave. A. He could ask the WDC Chairman to look into a matter, and then the WDC Chairman would -- would look into it. Q. You understand that almost all non-scientologists would not know what you mean by WC? A. WDC. Q. WDC, what is that? A. Watchdog committee. Q. Okay. The Chairman of that committee? A. Correct. Q. By the way, in the Office of Special Affairs, where do you have all the materials related to Mark
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materials written by Mr. Rathbun? A. That's his -- his postings. Q. And do you have those at OSA? A. Yes. Q. And they are in binders? A. Yes. Q. And how many binders are there? A. I think what you said is about accurate. Q. Sixteen or 17? A. Something like that, yeah. Q. And are they contained in these rolling file cabinets? A. Yes. Q. So, give me an idea in -A. A few shelvings. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Q. Is it fair to say that David Miscavige ensures that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with? A. Well, if it's concerning the orthodox of the religion, then just by its very nature that he would -he would -- if he sees something that's a -- an incorrect application of the -- of the practice of religion, then you know, he would make sure it was
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handled. For example, if there's cost material that was wrong, incorrect, had incorrect information in them, or we had the -- our basic scientology publications, the basic books, there were incorrect, there were alterations in them over the years, and he spent quite some time going through those materials to make sure that they were true to L. Ron Hubbard and exactly as he wanted them to be. And so, I mean, he spent a long, long time working on that project personally going through every single publication page by page and listening to every single lecture. Q. But, you're not saying that all the publications that had been used up to that time by scientologists were perversions, are you? A. I didn't say that. Q. Okay. Let's focus on -A. I didn't use the word. Q. -- what -- my question. My question to you was, is it fair to say that David Miscavige ensures that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with? A. I mean, you're asking me for some hypothetical type of thing. I mean -Q. Well, I'm going to hand you the David
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breadth of the discovery request, the document request, and I just want to be specific since we didn't get those. MR. STRIEBER: We'll consider your request -MR. JEFFREY: Thank you. You don't have to -MR. STRIEBER: -- and respond to it. MR. JEFFREY: Yeah, you don't have to -MR. STRIEBER: Not on the record here today. MR. JEFFERY: -- agree today, that's fine. MR. STRIEBER: I got to get a better knowledge of your subject matter. MR. JEFFREY: I understand. MR. STRIEBER: And I will object to form with respect to the use of this form of affidavit for these purposes, but that goes to your request that we work out something later about the form of the affidavit. THE WITNESS: Which paragraph, sorry? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Was it nine? I think it was paragraph nine, there's a highlighted line there about perversion.
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Miscavige affidavit from the Fishman and Uwe Geertz case, have this marked as Exhibit 2. It might have a couple of checkmarks and things on it from my hand, and we can substitute a clean copy. I'm going to ask you to take a look at paragraph nine, the highlighted portion. MR. SPENCER: Can I see it first? MR. JEFFREY: Yeah. Mark that. Would you put a No. 2 on that? MR. SPENCER: No. 2 is it? (Exhibit No. 2 marked.) MR. SPENCER: Paragraph nine is the one you were wanting him to focus on, right? MR. JEFFREY: Yeah, the highlighted. And while we're looking at that, I do want to make a request on the record that -- that all declarations and affidavits signed by David Miscavige be produced to us in this case so we don't have an issue over authenticity or that sort of thing. I pulled this off the Internet. We want to make sure we're accurate. MR. STRIEBER: So what are you asking, I'm sorry? MR. JEFFREY: That -- I'm sure there aren't that many of them. That any declarations or affidavits that have been executed by David Miscavige be produced to us in this case. I think it's within the
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A. Okay. Q. Would you read the statement, the highlighted statement about David Miscavige's involvement with perversions of the technology. A. Okay. It says: I also ensure that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with. Q. Okay. A. It's incomplete though. Q. Sure. But, there's many statements in there, and the -- the declaration goes on for dozens of pages. A. There's typically -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, Rule of Optional Completeness. What does the remainder part say? THE WITNESS: Well, the -- well, the whole paragraph is important because this is what I was explaining to you just a moment ago. What he's talking about here is making sure all the materials are being -are being -- are true to the scripture to what LHR intended in the first place because this is talking about he's interested in the application of the scripture of scientology as detailed by the Hubbard communications office policy letters and Hubbard communications office bulletins.
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Q. Slow down. A. Sorry. And the spoken words of Mr. Hubbard on the subject of dianetics and scientology as regarded on audiotape, video, film, and in some cases, written transcriptions of these materials. I inspect and correct departures from the standard application of the scripture of the religion. I also ensure that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with to keep the religion pure so that all people may benefit from the application of Mr. Hubbard's breakthroughs in the fields of the mind, the spirit and life. Q. Okay. A. This is what he worked on for quite some time. Q. So, he said I did all this work relating to the materials and making sure they were true? A. Uh-huh. Q. And then he said, "I also," and what was the phrase? A. I also ensure that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with. Q. In the eyes of the Church of Scientology International, was Marty Rathbun attempting to pervert the technology of dianetics and scientology?
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: The group that actually deals with this kind of stuff is the Office of Special Affairs. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Correct. Yet -A. We deal with it. Q. Yet, David Miscavige, whose position is captain of the Sea Organization and Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center, said that he makes sure that such perversions or attempted perversions are dealt with, correct? A. Well, first I'm going to object to the fact that you called him Captain David Miscavige again. But, the point I'm at is, you have to understand, this declaration was written back in 1991, 1991. We're talking about a long time ago and things were -- were different then than what they are now. And I'm telling you right now, anything concerning the dealing of squirrels or people who are altering the scriptures and involved in activities that are infringing on the copyrights and trademarks is an OSA responsibility that I deal with. Q. By the way, were you aware that this logo that The Squirrel Busters wore down in Ingleside on the Bay as they were dealing with the Rathbuns, which is a
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A. No, you have it wrong. What he's talking about here is, for example, that he's talking about the fact that the -- he was making sure that the application of the technology within the churches is being -- is actually -- the scripture is being applied 100 percent purely. Q. I need to ask you -MR. JEFFREY: I need to object to the nonresponsiveness. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And I need to ask you to please answer my question. In the eyes of the Church of Scientology, was Mark "Marty" Rathbun attempting to pervert the technology of dianetics and scientology? A. Attempting to pervert? Well, I think he perverted the technology. Q. Sure. A. He's delivering an altered version, altered, mixed. He was being a squirrel basically. Q. Okay. A. And so -Q. That is what a squirrel is, correct? A. One who alters and delivered the scriptures in -- in an altered -- altered form, yes. Q. And David Miscavige has said under oath that he makes sure that that sort of behavior is dealt with?
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circle with a squirrel body and Mr. Rathbun's head and a -- and a diagonal line through it, that that logo or image was created by David Miscavige? A. No way, it wasn't. Q. I'm not saying -- and let me clarify. I'm not saying with the face of Marty Rathbun, but with the face of prior squirrels, previous squirrels, that the original concept was originated by David Miscavige? A. That's false. Q. How do you know that? A. I was there. I was in RTC back in the '80s when that was there, and Mr. Miscavige wasn't even working in RTC at the time. And that was back in the mid-'80s dealing with squirrels type of thing, and that was -- that was a totally -- nothing to do with him at all. Q. So, this logo concept, regardless of what face you put on the squirrel, that was originated all the way back in the '80s? A. That was being used in the '80s back then. Q. At RTC? A. No. Q. Well, you said you were there. A. I know, I was there. Q. When it was originated.
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A. I'm saying when it -- when it first came up at that point was back then, and I know it wasn't Mr. Miscavige that was involved in that at all. Q. Well, who was involved in it? A. I don't know exactly where it came from, but I know that there were issues that we'd put out back then, which had that, but I know -- because he wasn't even working in RTC at the time. Q. May I see the affidavit declaration? So, the -- if, in David Miscavige's declaration from the Fishman and Geertz case, Exhibit 2 to your deposition, he swore under oath in -- at that time that he ensured that any attempted perversion of the technology of dianetics and scientology is rapidly dealt with, you're saying that he no longer does that? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I'm not saying that, no. I'm just telling you that for many years, while I've been the legal director of the Church of Scientology International, handling the issue of squirrels is totally and utterly an OSA function and we deal with it. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And, in fact, in the corporate structure of scientology, it would be inappropriate, wouldn't it, for David Miscavige to be directly involved with and supervising the handling of
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the transcript just to be -Q. Let me show you. On page 52 of the Monty Drake deposition toward the bottom. Would you read that -- the relevant exchange there? A. From the -- from here: When did you get an assignment to do an investigation regarding Mark Rathbun? That was the question from Mr. Wiegand. Answer: 2000 -- I believe 2007 was the first time. Question: And who did you first speak with about investigating Mark Rathbun? Answer: Neil O'Reilly. Q. Okay. And Neil O'Reilly, he's one of the staff in the Office of Special Affairs? A. Correct. Q. And he is not an attorney, is he? A. No. Q. And what was Mr. Drake being engaged -- well, let me backup. Were you aware that Mr. Drake was being engaged back in roughly 2007 by Mr. O'Reilly to do some services concerning Mr. Rathbun? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And back in 2007, Mr. Rathbun had not made any public statements, had he? A. No. Q. He had not performed any scientology
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squirrels, true? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Inappropriate? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yes, beyond his corporate capacity. MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I guess so. MR. JEFFREY: Let's take a break. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. We're off the record at 11:41 a.m. (Recess from 11:41 to 12:01.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 12:01 p.m. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Mr. Cartwright, we're back on the record after a little break. And were you at the depositions of Mr. Sloat and Mr. Drake? A. I was not. Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to look at their depo transcripts? A. Yes. Q. In Mr. Drake's deposition, I was not there, but I looked at the transcript, he testified that he was first contacted concerning Marty Rathbun in 2007 by Neil O'Reilly, Mr. O'Reilly. Do you remember that? A. You know, I'm not sure. I'd have to look at
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counseling, to your knowledge, had he? A. No. Q. So, why would the Church of Scientology International be instigating an investigation of him in 2007 when he was completely off the radar, so to speak? A. There was a report that Mr. Rathbun passed away, and there were allegations being made, and I think there was something about concerning the church as well and we wanted to verify what the data was, that's all. Q. An allegation concerning the church that, what, it was involved in the death? A. Something like that, yes. Q. Okay. A. I can't remember exactly what it was. Q. And to the best of your knowledge, was Mr. Drake's sworn testimony about being contacted in 2007 by Mr. O'Reilly; is that accurate? A. Not totally, no. Q. Okay. How is it inaccurate? A. Well, Mr. Abelson was involved, as well. Q. Okay. A. And so, Mr. Abelson was the one that decided to retain Mr. Drake to work on this. Q. And do you have any documentary evidence of that?
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A. No. Q. Do you have contract entered into with Mr. Drake back in 2007 or any other time before 2009? A. There was an oral agreement with Mr. Abelson. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Would -- would you read back my question, please? (Requested portion was read.) Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And the oral agreement with Mr. Drake was between whom? A. Mr. Abelson and Mr. Drake. Q. And how do you know that? A. Because I was there. Q. Where were you? A. I'm -- my office is very close to where Mr. Abelson's office is. Q. Mr. Abelson actually has an office there on the 10th floor of the Church of Scientology International building? A. That's correct. Q. And then, as we move forward in time, in 2008 was there any agreement put in writing with Mr. Drake? A. No. Q. In 2009? A. No. Q. 2010?
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services reactivated, so to speak, or re-engaged? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: 2009. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And was there any written agreement done at that time? A. No. Q. What precipitated this written agreement in late October of 2012? A. I think that's a privileged question. MR. STRIEBER: Is -THE WITNESS: I think it's -MR. STRIEBER: Is the information that you know to answer his question, information gained through conversation with counsel? THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Are you aware that this agreement, Exhibit 3, was entered into three or so days after Mr. Rathbun published on his blog that he had discovered the surveillance cameras from the residence neighboring his down in Ingleside on the Bay? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) You, in the Office of Special Affairs, do monitor Mr. Rathbun's blog, don't you? A. We look at it.
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No. 2011? No. 2012? Yes. (Exhibit No. 3 marked.) Q. Okay. And we have as an exhibit to your deposition, Exhibit 3, don't we? A. That's correct. Q. And that's -- that's an agreement -- well, just tell us what it is. A. Contract for Investigative Services and Non-Disclosure Agreement. Q. And what's the date on that agreement? A. 29 October 2012. Q. And so, at that time, Mr. Drake had been performing services for the Church of Scientology International concerning Mr. Rathbun for approximately five years? A. 2012, 2009. I don't think it's five years, no. Q. '07 was when he said he was first retained. A. Oh, well, he did it just -- it was like, I think, a day or two. Q. Okay. And when was it -- when were his
A. Q. A. Q. A.
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Q. Okay. You -- you and the Office of Special Affairs look at Mr. Rathbun's blog, don't you? A. Yes. Q. And who's responsible for doing that? A. Well, Lynn Shape. Q. Lynn? A. Lynn Shape. Q. How do you spell that last name? A. S-h-a-p-e. Q. And is that a man or a woman? A. Woman. Q. Does Ms. Shape -- is that a regular part of her duties, to check or to look at the blog? A. Part of it, yes. Q. Do you look at the blog? A. Very rarely. Q. And is any reporting done from -- by Ms. Shape about her review of the blog? A. Well, she'll show me if there's a new infringement, for example, or something else that's on there that looks like could be an infringement. Q. By the way, has the Church of Scientology International ever taken any action against Mr. Rathbun or Mrs. Rathbun to protect any intellectual property rights?
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A. No. Q. Has RTC ever taken any action against Mr. or Mrs. Rathbun to project any intellectual property rights? A. No. Q. And you certainly have plenty of attorneys to consult with, don't you? A. I have lawyers to consult with. Q. With expertise in the area of intellectual property? A. Yes. Q. And for how many years do you contend that Mr. or Mrs. Rathbun have been doing anything that might somehow touch on or infringe on the intellectual property of any scientology organization? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. MR. JEFFREY: I'll have her read it back. I don't know if I can -(Requested portion was read.) THE WITNESS: Okay. It's hard to answer that question because Mr. Rathbun, at some point, was sort of getting into some stuff which was pretty out there, and you know, it sort of -- it's what people like
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scientology auditing, and then -- and then he took it back down again. So, as I said, it sort of changed, you know, there was -- it was happening, then it wasn't happening, that kind of thing. Q. Now, I've seen you -- you've mentioned that, and since you bring it up, that Craigslist advertisement. Isn't it a fact -- let me start over. I know in at least one affidavit or declaration you have emphasized that Craigslist ad. A. Uh-huh. Q. Just for context, isn't it true that that ad was run for approximately one week back in the very beginning of 2009 and has never run again? A. I don't know. Q. But you're not -A. I can't tell you. Q. -- suggesting to us, are you, that he's been running a Craigslist ad for months and months or years and years, are you? A. I never said -- I never said that. Q. Okay. You've just said that he did run a Craigslist ad? A. That's correct. Q. And if the testimony is that it was run one time for one cycle of a week, or whatever it was, and he
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him do, they get into -- they start doing a little bit of scientology, then they start altering it and altering it and altering it, and then it turns into who knows what it is. Q. Uh-huh. A. And so, it looked like he was doing that through 2012. Then it looked like again he was getting into it again, but it was -- it was -- I'm just telling you that's hard to say how long was he doing it for. Q. But, when did it begin, any sort of activity infringing on or touching on the intellectual property of any Church of Scientology organization? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: When did it begin? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yeah. A. 2009. Q. Beginning of? A. Sorry? Q. Early 2009? A. Yes. Q. And has any scientology organization taken any legal action against Mr. Rathbun in connection with his activities? A. No. At the time, he put up a Craigslist, which was a blatant infringement, that said he was doing
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never had any responses to it, do you have any means to dispute that? A. That he didn't get any responses to it? Q. That -- that it only ran for the initial period, whatever it is, for a Craigslist ad, and that he never received any responses and he stopped using it? A. Yeah, but he was using other marks, as well. Q. But, please just answer my question. I'm just asking you about the Craigslist ad. A. That particular? Q. Yes. A. I can't tell you whether it -- when it went up because I wasn't aware of when it went up and exactly when it went down. I'm just telling you that it was up in early 2009. Q. And do you have documentation there in your offices in Los Angeles that would definitively show us when it went up and when it came down? A. No. I don't think so anyhow. Q. Okay. If you go back and check, will you notify your attorneys so they can supplement your testimony? MR. SPENCER: I think we'll follow the rules. THE WITNESS: Yeah, they'll do what -28 (Pages 106 to 109)
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MR. SPENCER: We'll follow the rules on that. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. So, in 2007 the contact with Monty Drake from the Office of Special Affairs and Elliot Abelson related strictly to a report of Mr. Rathbun being deceased? A. Correct. Q. Didn't involve any intellectual property infringement? A. No. Q. Didn't involve any threats to the Church of Scientology, any of its organizations, by Mr. Rathbun? A. No. Q. Did you determine whether or not Mr. Rathbun was dead or alive? A. Alive. Q. And did you physically locate him at that time? A. I'm -- I'm sure that was the case. Q. And did you then do, or have done any surveillance of Mr. Rathbun at that time? A. Do or have done? Q. Yes. A. Well, Monty Drake went there and did observe
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A. No. Q. Okay. Let's put a -- where is No. 1? Okay. Let's start over. (Exhibit No. 4 marked.) Q. Exhibit 4 is the notice for your deposition here today, or for the Church of Scientology International's deposition, correct? A. Yes. Q. Will you look at Exhibit 1A? What is that document? A. It appears to be pages three, five, six, seven, eight of probably an eight page document. Q. Okay. A. But there's page one, two, four I'm missing. Q. Okay. A. And I don't know if there was any other pages to that document. Q. And do you have any understanding of what this document is, even though it does not appear to have all the pages? A. It's a continuation sheet to what appears to be some sheriff -- I think with the sheriff report, but I can't tell. Q. Okay. A. This was -Page 113
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him, so -Q. But you're saying that just lasted for a few days? A. Correct. If that. Q. And then from '07 to '09, was there any investigation or work being done by the Church of Scientology with regard to Mr. Rathbun? A. No. Q. When you are testifying here about the services of Mr. Drake in 2007, are you testifying from memory of the events at the time, or have you had available to you any written documentation to refresh your recollection? A. From memory. Q. Okay. You don't have any written documentation? A. No. Q. No report from Mr. Drake saying "I found Mr. Rathbun and he's alive"? A. No. Q. Okay. One of the things that we asked that the Church of Scientology International produce a witness to testify about was the Exhibit 1A to the deposition notice. And is the deposition notice attached as an exhibit or not to your deposition?
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Q. It relates to an RTC employee named John R. Brousseau, does it not? A. It says that here. Q. And it says that the reporting party was Warren McShane? A. Yes. Q. Who is John Brousseau? A. He was a former staff member of Religious Technology Center. Q. Is he in good standing with the Church Of Scientology? A. In good standing? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. And were you involved in any way in connection with the departure of Mr. Brousseau from his employment with the Religious Technology Center? A. I don't know what you mean by that, just his departure? Q. Yeah. In any way were you involved with the investigation of it, dealing with him, in anything to do with Mr. Brousseau? A. I was aware that Mr. McShane went to the sheriff's office. Q. To do what?
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A. To report theft of our, I think, equipment and information, documents from Religious Technology Center, by John Brousseau. Q. And before you got Deposition Exhibit 4, which was your deposition notice -A. Four, sorry. Yeah, okay, four. Q. Isn't it four? A. Yes. Q. Yeah. Had you ever seen this document? A. I've seen a document that's complete, but this is incomplete. Q. Do you have a complete copy of this document anywhere? A. It was filed in the case 209CV03986, it's the federal case number, that's where it was -- that's where we got it from. Q. Okay. But, you do have a complete copy? A. We have what was filed. It wasn't -- it wasn't filed by CSI, and so it was filed by counsel in a different case. Q. Sure. A. So, we don't know how they got it. Q. Okay. But, my question was, you do have what appears to be a complete copy rather than -A. That document. This actually says it's page
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about the facts recited in this Exhibit 1A to your deposition notice, which is Exhibit 4? A. Yes. Q. Well, what do you know about all this? A. I know that CSI, through the use of Monty Drake, who was -- and with assistance from Elliot Abelson, we were able to locate John Brousseau in Texas. Q. Do you see on page six of eight of that -A. Six of eight? Q. Yes. A. Okay. Q. Do you see there on line 30 where it says: Mr. McShane told me RTC had previously contracted with a private security firm in the State of Texas to monitor Mr. Rathbun's activities? Did I read that correctly? A. That's what it says. Q. And then it says: Mr. McShane contacted the security firm and provided them with J.B.'s photo and information, and asked that he, McShane, be contacted in the event J.B. was seen meeting with Mr. Rathbun. Did I read that correctly? A. You did, but the sheriff got it all wrong. Q. Okay. Do you understand that you're here -I'm trying not to quarrel with you.
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25 of 38, so I don't know whether it's -- I don't know how many pages this thing is. Q. Well, it may have been an exhibit to a pleading or something. A. Could be, I don't know. Q. But you-all didn't produce that, did you, in response to our discovery request? I didn't see it in the CSI production. A. It's a public record. I thought you had it. MR. STRIEBER: I'd have to visit the responses to whether it's actually responsive. If you want a copy of what we have, we'll certainly get it to you. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Yeah, I would like a complete copy. I don't know if -- if this was a mistake in my office missing page four, but I know I've never seen pages one and two, so I'd like to see the complete document, if you have it. THE WITNESS: You can get it from Pacer, as well. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I don't remember -MR. STRIEBER: We'll get you a copy of what he's referring to. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So, do you have any knowledge
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A. I understand. Q. But, you understand you're here to just answer questions? A. But -- but, what I'm telling you is what was said there was incorrect. Q. Did I ask you, Mr. Cartwright, is what was said in there correct or incorrect? A. Well, I just wanted to make sure it was clarified that -Q. That's not your job. Your job is to answer the questions. MR. STRIEBER: Hey, stop with the -- stop with the lecturing. It is his job to give you complete answers. MR. JEFFREY: Completely -- if I just said did I read that correctly, and he says that's not correct -MR. STRIEBER: Object to nonresponsiveness, ask your next question, if that's the way you want to handle it. MR. JEFFREY: Well, I just want to finish the deposition, and this unduly prolongs the deposition, all of this -MR. STRIEBER: Your lecture unduly prolongs it.
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Okay. So, Mr. Cartwright, tell me what is incorrect about the portions of the, let's say, lines 30 through 33 of page six of the sheriff's report. A. Okay. Mr. McShane did not previously contract with a private security firm in the State of Texas to monitor Mr. Rathbun's activities. That's totally wrong. RTC never did that. Q. How do you know? A. Because CSI did that through Elliot Abelson, and it's always been that way. Q. But, how do you know that Mr. McShane or someone at RTC did not also contract with Monty Drake? A. Because Mr. McShane contacted Mr. -Mrs. Hamel and asked her if -- if they could help in -asked if CSI could help in locating Mr. Brousseau, and so we utilized our private investigator in Texas to do that, and that was done by CSI. Q. And who contacted the investigator? A. It was Neil O'Reilly. Q. So, at that time, did Mr. Drake have an ongoing investigation? A. Yes, of Mr. Rathbun. And then the other sentence -- did you want me to continue? Q. No.
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Q. But Exhibit -- Deposition Exhibit 4, let me say that. It's page six of the sheriff's report. A. Okay. Q. Go down to line 43, if you would, Mr. Cartwright. A. Yes. Q. It says: Mr. McShane summoned four church members, employees who know J.B. the best and sent them to Texas to attempt to contact him and persuade him to return to the facility in Hemet, California. Did the sheriff's deputy get that wrong, too? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And did you just happen to be there in the room when that call came in? A. I was not. Q. Okay. So, how do you know that statement is incorrect? A. I asked Mrs. Hamel about it. Q. In connection with preparing for this deposition? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And what did Mrs. Hamel tell you? A. She told me that Tommy Davis, when -- when Mrs. Hamel told Tommy about the fact that John Brousseau had gone to Texas, he said that he wanted to go and see
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A. Because it -- because you asked me -MR. STRIEBER: If he doesn't want you to, that's fine. THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. All right. Because the next sentence is wrong, too. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And how do you know what you've just recited about what the true events were? A. I was with Ms. Hamel at the time. Q. Did she call you in to assist on this? A. Actually, at the time, I was in her office. Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Drake ever did work for RTC or CSI in the 1990s? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. It's compound. THE WITNESS: I know he did work for CSI in the 1990s. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And who retained him back then? A. Back then, it was Mr. Moxon. Q. Attorney? A. Yes. Q. Staying on the same page of Exhibit 4. A. Exhibit -Q. Yeah, I'm sorry, it's confusing. A. Okay.
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him, go talk to him, see if he could reason with him, to have him come back to return what he had stolen, and to attempt to have him, you know, make sure he leaves the church in a correct way. Q. And that -- so what you're saying is incorrect here is that Mr. McShane did not summon the four church members who knew J.B. the best and send them to Texas? A. That's correct. It was Tommy Davis in speaking to Linda Hamel. Q. Uh-huh. A. Tommy originated wanting to go, and he then worked out who he knew, the individual that knew -- that knew John Brousseau who he thought would be people that John would be -- have a nice, good friendship with, and so he worked out the three other people, all of them CSI staff, that -- and they went to Texas. Q. And Mr. Davis has given deposition testimony about this, hasn't he? A. That's correct. Q. You've read that? A. Correct. Q. So, you're not just getting this information from Ms. Hamel, are you? A. I got it from both places. Q. Okay. As Director of Legal Affairs for the
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Church of Scientology International, you followed and were involved with the Headley case, weren't you? A. Yes, but I never read his testimony concerning this matter because it wasn't even an issue in the case. Q. Okay. And so, what is your explanation to the judge and jury as to why this sheriff's deputy is so inaccurate in his reporting? Is it that he just writes things down wrong, or do you believe that Mr. McShane reported it incorrectly? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't say what the sheriff did. All I know is, if you -- if you had the other pages, it has victim, Church of Scientology. I mean, that's the victim in this matter. And so, I don't know whether the sheriff understood what was what type of thing. I don't know. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. By the way, are there -- did you find other inaccuracies in this sheriff's report aside from the ones that tie RTC to its activities in the State of Texas? A. What I just -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: What I just mentioned to you just now.
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Church of Scientology, correct? A. No. Q. There's no scientologist that just generally refers to the various umbrella of organizations -A. I don't know. Q. -- as the Church of Scientology? A. Someone may say that, it may be said that way. I don't use it. Q. Okay. And a sheriff's deputy in Riverside County, California might refer generally to scientology corporations as the Church of Scientology, that wouldn't shock you, would it? A. You asked me whether -- I'm not talking about shocked, I'm just talking about incorrect, that's all. Q. Okay. So, other than that, other than the generic use of the term "Church of Scientology," did the sheriff's deputy get any of the other facts in this eight page report wrong? A. Well, the problem I have with that is a few things is, one, I don't have the complete report. The other thing is, I'm -- I looked at this thing based on my own knowledge and the facts with regards to CSI directly and I could see that those particular things were wrong, that the investigator was retained by CS -by Mr. Abelson for CSI, and that -- and I know the facts
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I said other than -A. Uh-huh. Yes. Q. There are a few things in this report, which if believed, indicate that RTC was conducting activities in the State of Texas, correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Well, that's what -- that's what's wrong about it. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Right. A. Right. Q. So I'm saying, other than that, which is at issue in this case for jurisdiction, is there anything else in this report that you can show us that's inaccurate? MR. STRIEBER: Counsel, he was going to a while ago and you told him you didn't want him to. THE WITNESS: I just mentioned, I don't have the whole report here. When I looked at the complete report, I just gave you an example, which was -- it said victim, Church of Scientology. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) But, did it say Church of Scientology International? A. No. Q. Okay. So, there is a broad term that's even used by scientologists, right, just a generic term, the
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concerning the Tommy Davis matter, and that didn't have anything to do with RTC neither. Those things stand out because they deal with me directly. Q. Who is -MR. STRIEBER: He's still talking. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Sorry. A. I haven't gone through -- you know, I could go through the whole thing, we can spend our time for me to read the whole thing so I can find anything else. Q. That's okay. A. Okay. Q. Who is Tommy Davis? A. He's a parishioner. Q. Was he a parishioner at the time that he went down and visited Mr. Brousseau to try to get him to come back to the church? A. He was a staff member in public relations in the Office of Special Affairs. Q. If we were to Google Tommy Davis, would we actually see him speaking on behalf of the Church of Scientology? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: No. Spoken you mean, he has spoken. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yes.
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A. That's what I said, he worked in public relations? Q. Right. A. In the Office of Special Affairs in the past. Q. At one point, he was the person who was the actual spokesman to -- to respond to interviews and things like that from the media? A. No, not the -- he has spoken to the media. Q. And he was a Sea Org member, correct? A. Yes. Q. And where is he today? A. I don't know where he is today. I don't know where he is. You're asking me right now where he is or where he lives or what? Q. Where does he live? A. The last I heard, he was in Texas. Q. Where in Texas? A. Austin, Texas. Q. And does he any longer do work for the Church of Scientology International? A. No. Q. Does he receive payments from the Church of Scientology International? A. No. Q. Did he reach any sort of settlement with the
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MR. JEFFREY: Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is it customary for church attorneys to retain private investigators, and then four or five years after they're first retained to enter into an agreement with them about the services? A. Customary? Q. Yeah. Is that normal? A. I can only answer that question, I mean -- I mean, sometimes it's been done immediately, sometimes -I think it was just -- it was just basically overlooked, that's all. Shouldn't have been, but -Q. And by the way, Mr. Abelson, the lawyer, his office is down the hall from you on the same floor of the same building, and if he has any files on any of this matter, you certainly have the ability since he -you are his client, or your organization is his client, to go down and get those materials, right? A. To get access to them? Q. Yeah. A. I would have access to them. Q. Sure. Now, in this agreement in paragraph seven, it says: Any and all information including but not limited to all of investigator's work papers, documents, reports, notes, memoranda, film, photographs, video and audiotape recordings, information stored by
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Church of Scientology International? A. No. Q. Is he in good standing with the Church of Scientology International? A. Yes. Q. In fact, he represented the Church of Scientology International on international media news shows concerning Mr. Rathbun and the allegations that Mr. Rathbun made about violence in the Church of Scientology, didn't he? A. At one point, yes. Q. Has Mr. Davis signed any sort of Confidentiality Agreement or gag order or Non-Disparagement Agreement with any church entity? A. You know, I don't know. I haven't looked at what documents he may have signed. Q. Do you have a file on Tommy Davis in the Office of Special Affairs? A. I haven't checked. Q. So, you're just saying you don't know? A. Correct. Q. May I see exhibit -- the contract with Elliot Abelson? A. Yeah. MR. STRIEBER: Here you go.
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any means in a computer or on microfilm regardless of their nature and the source from which they emanate are the sole, exclusive property of law office and its clients. As I understand it, what you've told me is that there are no such materials? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: No, I never said that. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I asked you if there were any reports and you said no. A. No. You asked me reports from Mr. Drake. Q. Yes. A. And I said no. Q. This is the agreement with Mr. Drake, correct, Exhibit 3? A. Yes. Q. And it says that all of his reports and documents and computer records and everything else belong to the law office, that's Elliot Abelson, right? A. Okay. Q. But, you're telling me there are no such things, even though there's an agreement specifying that they belong to the law office; is that true? A. I think I answered the question already. Q. Okay. What's your answer?
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A. I said that there were no reports for Mr. Drake. Q. What about work papers, reports -- sorry, you already said reports -- notes, memoranda, film, photographs, video, audiotape, are there any of those things? A. There is some video, pictures. Q. And does that go as far back as 2007? A. No. Q. So, Mr. Drake went down there and confirmed Mr. Rathbun's whereabouts and that he was, in fact, alive, but he didn't send any proof of life back to OSA? A. From what I remember, no. Q. Under this agreement, Mr. Drake is not allowed to, in any way, disparage Mr. Abelson or the Church of Scientology, is he? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. If there's a provision to that effect, I'd like you to allow him -THE WITNESS: I'd have to look at the agreement. MR. STRIEBER: -- to review it. THE WITNESS: I don't have one in front of me. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Well, it's in there, but I
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of the Sea Organization, you've never heard of something called a COB order? A. Never that title, no. Q. Okay. A. Not that title. Q. And as I understand it also, in your 30 plus years as a member of the Sea Organization, you've never heard of a compliance report required in response to one of those orders? A. Well, as I said, I don't know what a COB order is. Q. Okay. Do you know what a compliance report is? A. I know what that is, yes. Q. And is it a compliance report that goes back to Chairman of the Board, Religious Technology Center? A. If there's a request from him like, for example, put together a new film on a certain aspect of the scientology religion, he would issue that communication to staff and CSI to produce that film, and they would -- if you want to call it a compliance, it's complying to that request, and that request is done and he looks at it and he'll say this is fine or he'll say this thing wrong with it, this thing wrong with it, fix it, and so they will fix it.
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don't want to search for it. A. Okay. Q. I'm drowning in my own paper here. On -- I'm looking at your deposition notice and Exhibit A, which is the items on which we -- we wanted to inquire of the Church of Scientology International. A. Okay. Q. And before I leave some of these items, I just want to make sure that I have it clear. No. 1, you are completely unaware of and unable to testify about C0B orders, you don't know what that is, and you can't testify about that, correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I think you're being very -- I mean, as I said, you asked me if there were -are orders from COB to OSA, I think it was. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I'm just -- I asked you, first of all, what are COB orders, and I think you said you'd never heard of it. A. Right. But it doesn't mean there aren't directions from him, communications from him requiring things to be done. Q. But in your -A. They exist. Q. In your 30 years -- 30 plus years as a member
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Q. But, the term "compliance report," you're telling us under oath you've never heard of that? A. I never said that. I said I have heard of compliance report. Q. Okay. But never COB order, you've never heard of that? A. I don't know what you mean by COB order. I told you what I've told you, that there is instruction from him. He requires certain things to be done and I gave you an example of one of those things. Q. Uh-huh. A. And that's what's done. Q. My -- my world is litigation, and if someone was questioning me and asked me if I knew what interrogatories were, and I said I'd never heard of that, that would be strange. And I'm just trying to find out from you, are you aware of a -- of a term within scientology, within the practice of the different scientology organizations, of something called a COB order? A. No. Q. You haven't heard of that? A. No. But I've -Q. Okay. A. But I've mentioned to you already what I said,
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that he does issue direction of things to be done with regard to the orthodox of the religion, and that happens a lot. I mean, there's a lot of materials that were recently released by the church in the last -- in the last week, for example, and that -- and CSI worked with Mr. Miscavige on bringing that about? Q. Are you aware of the allegation that essentially David Miscavige goes across all boundaries of the various scientology corporations, and at will, issues orders and directives which are literally recorded on audio -- on audio and typed up and sent to the responsible party. If it was the gardener that's supposed to trim two inches off the hedge, he gets a COB order and then he has to show a compliance report that he has complied with that order and that there's a whole system for tracking compliance with these COB orders, you're aware of that general discussion in -A. Doesn't happen. Q. Okay. Does not happen? A. Does not happen. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form in the middle there. MR. JEFFREY: It's timely. You're fine. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And so, that anyone who says that that goes on on a daily basis within the world of
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mean, just for visiting? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yeah. They've been there and spoken with him, maybe spent the night. A. Well, if they've been involved in his -- his perversion of the technology of the services, then they would be subject to ecclesiastical justice procedure. Q. But, on a more mundane level, do you dispatch someone to go interview them and see what went on while they were with Mr. Rathbun and Mrs. Rathbun? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question. I mean, some may have been interviewed, but I'm not saying -- I mean -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Are you involved with that? A. In getting him interviewed? Q. Yeah. I mean, does a bell ring in your office, or an e-mail goes to you, and then you say, "Well, get so and so over there to interview them and see what they know about Rathbun's squirrelling activities," or are you not involved with that? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm involved to the extent of knowing who goes there, yes, or who went there. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Who actually originates the
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scientology is just mistaken or lying? A. Yes. Q. When Tommy Davis was working for the Church of Scientology, which scientology corporation was his employer? A. CSI. Q. When scientologists or former scientologists or independent scientologists, anyone in any way connected past, present with the Church of Scientology, goes and sees Marty Rathbun, what is the protocol in OSA for dealing with those people? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Going to see him? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yeah. A. Oh, you mean -- what do you mean by what do they do to go -- just going to see him? Q. Yeah. You -- you put video cameras up at the -- outside the Rathbuns' home in Bulverde, Comal County, Texas, or outside of their home in Ingleside on the Bay, Texas, and you get photographic or video evidence that John Smith has gone and visited Marty Rathbun, what does OSA then do with regard to John Smith? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Because they go visit you
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response, if it's not you? A. Originates what response? Q. The response of getting someone over there to interview the visitor who went and saw the Rathbuns. A. I don't know what you mean by interview the visitor, that's what I'm having a problem -Q. John Smith. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) John Smith goes and spends a night or two with the Rathbuns and sometime later is visited by folks connected with the Church of Scientology wanting to know what went on, what they know about Marty Rathbun, et cetera, are you denying that that happens? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Well, I'm actually asking for an example. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I gave you the John Smith example. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Okay. I don't know who John Smith is. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) He doesn't exist other than
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as a hypothetical. A. There's nothing set. Q. Has there ever been anybody who has gone and visited the Rathbuns that has not in some way been followed up on by the Office of Special Affairs of the Church of Scientology International? MR. STRIEBER: Please -- please hold your question for a minute. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: You're way beyond jurisdictional discovery with relation to RTC and Mr. Miscavige. MR. JEFFREY: I think this is all directed by David Miscavige and reported to David Miscavige. MR. STRIEBER: Well, you don't have any evidence of that -MR. JEFFREY: Yes, we do. MR. STRIEBER: -- whatsoever. You do not. MR. JEFFREY: You don't like my evidence, but I've got tons of it. MR. STRIEBER: Okay. Don't answer the question. You've gone beyond the scope. You're asking him what RT -- what CSI does and what he might -- may do as a staff member or employee of CSI. I've been trying
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to see her? A. I don't know. You have to tell me who they -I mean, if you have any information. I think it was -Q. Well, you were very heavily involved in the Debbie Cook case, weren't you? A. Correct. Q. Isn't it a fact that at least one of the representatives that went to visit her in San Antonio, Texas was from RTC? A. No. Q. So then, who were they? A. All I know is that there was staff that was sent there. FSO staff went there and CSI staff went there. So, I'm not quite sure which visit you're talking about, but I think there were two visits, but I could be wrong. Q. Where the subject was Mr. Rathbun? A. You know, I can't remember what the subjects were, but I know that the subjects were Debbie Cook because I was seeing Debbie Cook. Whether Rathbun was mentioned in it, it's possible, I don't know. Q. Tommy Davis, a former spokesperson for the Church of Scientology, resides in Texas, Debbie -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. Debbie Cook, the -- a former high ranking
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to be lenient. There's nothing on your Exhibit A -MR. JEFFREY: We'll come back to it in another deposition then, I guess, Mr. -- that's fine, I don't need to -MR. STRIEBER: And we're not denying that -MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: -- you will have a merits based -MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: -- deposition in the future. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) You know who Debbie Cook is, don't you? A. Yes. Q. And there was some litigation involving Debbie Cook in Texas? A. Yes. Q. And back after Mr. Rathbun resurfaced and was found not to be dead in the beginning of 2009, did the Church of Scientology International send representatives to go meet with her concerning any involvement she might have had with Mr. Rathbun? A. I believe so. Q. And who were those representatives that went
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church member with -- or staff member with the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization lived in Texas, and Mr. Rathbun lives in Texas. And you're not denying, are you, that the Church of Scientology International has had contacts with these people, and generally contacts in the State of Texas over the last five years, let's say? MR. STRIEBER: Counselor, if it's helpful, Church of Scientology International has answered this lawsuit and it's not challenging jurisdiction. MR. JEFFREY: But, he's the representative of the Church of Scientology International, and I just want to know what his position is. MR. SPENCER: Where is that in this list of what the Church of Scientology International's contacts with Texas are? I don't see it, Ray, and it looks like you're straying from this -- you know, what you've designated as the topics. MR. JEFFREY: Well, I think it would be covered in No. 9, but I'll withdraw it, because I -- I saw something else here that I'm -- I'm more interested in, which is item eight. THE WITNESS: Okay.
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Did I specifically ask you about that item, which is history practice and procedures for recording and transcribing David Miscavige's verbal comments and commands for distribution to responsible individuals within scientology corporations, and for corresponding compliance reports, am I correct that you deny that that occurs, which is that his instructions and remarks are recorded, typed up and distributed as orders? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. DUNAGAN: Objection form. THE WITNESS: I can't -- I'm -- I'm saying no to some of that. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. What parts? A. Well, the part that says that it's -- it's the order -- it's an order. But I can tell you, which I gave you an example of, but I didn't get to quite complete the example, is if there's, for example, a film -- I mentioned the film to you as an example, and there's -- Mr. Miscavige may want to meet with certain staff that deal with the creation of the film, and so would actually meet with them, and that would be -- that meeting would be recorded. And then excerpts of that meeting, what would be relevance like, as I said, fix that, fix this, handle this, make sure that the actor
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Mr. Sloat? A. I did. Q. Okay. And what was the -- well, I don't want to ask that. Tell me about the manner of the retaining of Mr. Sloat. MR. STRIEBER: Well, let me -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) I just mean generically. You don't have to tell me about any communications or anything, but for example, my understanding from his testimony is that he was hired, so to speak, by J.R. Skaggs, I think, as an investigator in Houston. Were you aware of that? A. You're asking me? Q. Yes. A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. Is J.R. Skaggs an investigator who has done work for the Church of Scientology International in Texas? A. I don't believe anything else, no. Q. Why wasn't Monty Drake just contacted? A. I'd have to -MR. STRIEBER: Can you answer that question without information -THE WITNESS: I can't. MR. STRIEBER: -- information obtained by
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does this and to make sure that the scripture is properly communicated, that is transcribed in -- in a summary type form, or excerpt type of thing, which is given to the staff so that then when they submit the revised film, it's correctly communicated, you know, they've done the required fix ups, so there's no misunderstanding. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Let's take a little break. I may be done. MR. STRIEBER: Okay. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 1:01 p.m. (Recess from 1:01 to 1:19.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 1:19 p.m. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Mr. Cartwright, we're almost done. Hang in there another minute or two. We've talked some about Mr. Drake. What about Mr. Sloat, who was in charge of retaining Mr. Sloat and -- and his assignment in Comal County, Texas? A. Mr. Abelson. Q. Okay. And, of course, lawyers do work for clients, and clients ultimately have the authority over the lawyers. Who in the Church of Scientology International authorized Mr. Abelson to retain
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your lawyer? THE WITNESS: No. MR. STRIEBER: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) What other investigators has the Church of Scientology International used in the State of Texas through its attorneys? A. In Texas? Q. Yeah. A. Well, for a short time, Marrick and Arnold were there. Q. Uh-huh. A. There was one investigator that Mr. Drake retained. I can't remember his name. Q. By the way, speaking of Marrick and Arnold, do you remember their statements to the effect that Linda Hamel told them that -- that OSA had sent The Squirrel Busters down to Texas to make Marty implode? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Do you remember that statement? A. Of them saying that? Q. Yes. A. I don't remember them saying that, no. Q. Were you involved at all with the Marrick and Arnold case?
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A. Yes. Q. And you don't remember that? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't remember -- there was no -- no testimony in that case. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Sure. But it's been in the press. A. Okay. MR. STRIEBER: Well, there you go. MS. BASCON: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) They were interviewed. A. I don't read all the press. Q. Okay. Have you spoken with Ms. Hamel about whether or not she ever made that statement to Marrick and Arnold? A. I never asked her that question, no. Q. We had the -- we've talked about basically two phases or aspects of interaction with the Rathbuns, one, the investigation, and two, The Squirrel Busters activities. As I understand it, the investigation was authorized by whom? A. By me. Q. Okay. And you, with Elliot Abelson, retained Mr. Drake, correct? A. Yes.
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investigators. I live and work in Bulverde, Comal County, Texas and I've got the business card of at least one of them, and I know there's, I believe, two or three that hung out at the park watching the road, that sort of thing. I'm not going to hide anything from you, I know that. A. Right. Q. What other activities, other than this Sloat operation of setting up surveillance, what other investigative activities were done by the Church of Scientology International regarding the Rathbuns in Comal County, Texas? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MS. BASCON: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Just the surveillance, that's all. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And what kind of reporting was done from those private investigators back to OSA? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: And for the record, just because I don't want to waive anything, I'm trying to be lenient. MR. JEFFREY: Thank you. MR. STRIEBER: But, I think this line of questioning on what CSI did here is beyond the scope of
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Q. Okay. And then The Squirrel Busters, the Church of Scientology International, its Office of Special Affairs, was involved with The Squirrel Busters operation, there were some expenses paid and that sort of thing, correct? A. Yes. Q. And who authorized that? A. The expenditures? Q. Yeah. A. Elliot Abelson. Q. If -- okay. But, ultimately, he has to have authority from his client in order to incur expenses on behalf of the client, so who at the client would have approved or authorized -A. Me. Q. -- that? A. Me. Q. Now, Mr. Sloat came to Comal County, Texas and put up some cameras and that sort of thing, but there were other investigators who monitored the activities of the Rathbuns in Comal County. A. Other investigators? Q. Yes. A. There was Monty Drake. Q. Right. And there were some local
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this jurisdictional discovery related to Mr. Miscavige and RTC. MR. JEFFREY: I think this one limited item is certainly reasonably within the scope, and I don't think it's too much to ask him to -MR. STRIEBER: I'm not instructing him not to -MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: -- answer it, I'm just putting -MR. JEFFREY: Yeah. I mean, I'm done. MR. STRIEBER: -- my record. MR. JEFFREY: I'm just about done. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So, would you fill us in? A. Well, you have to ask me the question again because I -Q. Can't remember it now. Mr. Strieber is being so helpful, I can't remember my questions. I was just asking you, other than the Sloat operation of setting up surveillance on the property adjacent to the Rathbuns, what other investigative operation was done relating to the Rathbuns in Comal County, Texas? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Just surveillance. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Just keeping an eye on them?
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A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And was that done through this J.R. Skaggs or through Monty Drake or whom? A. Both. Q. Okay. Within the Church of Scientology International, I understand that you -- you authorized this work connected to Mr. Rathbun, but who, to your knowledge, was the highest person in authority at the Church of Scientology International who was knowledgeable of the operation that you had authorized? A. The only person would be -- I mean, I met most -- I was probably -- I was the most knowledgeable, but Linda Hamel definitely knew about it. Q. And she's superior to you in the chain of command? A. She's my senior. Q. Okay. A. Yes. Q. Whatever the terminology is? A. Right. Q. Did -- did Ms. Hamel give her input into what ought to be done, how it ought to be done, that sort of thing? A. Yeah. We -- I mean, we work very closely, along with Neil O'Reilly, so it was -- she had -- she
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A. Yes. Q. The same thing would be true for the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization or RTC, those folks aren't just wandering in going through your files, are they? A. No. Q. If you work at a law firm, for example, you have to be careful about what you go out and say outside the office about matters you're working on. Is the same thing true if you work in OSA -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. -- that you basically are discreet about keeping your work within the confines of OSA? A. For privileged matters, that kind of thing, yes. MR. JEFFREY: That's all I have. Let's take a break. MR. STRIEBER: We'll reserve our questions. MR. JEFFERSON: Reserve. MR. HULL: Reserve. MS. BASCON: Reserve. MR. DUNAGAN: Reserve. MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. We're off -Page 153
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had involvement. Q. And would Ms. Hamel have had to get authorization from anyone else, whether it's in CSI, RTC or anywhere else? A. No. Q. By the way, OSA deals with fairly sensitive matters, doesn't it? A. I don't know what you mean by sensitive matters. Q. Legal matters, public relations, investigations, covert and otherwise, those are -- in the grand scheme of things, those are relatively sensitive matters, aren't they? A. Well, we deal with external matters, I guess you can call them sensitive matters. Q. Well, for example, you have all these files up there relating to legal cases and investigations. Is anyone that works for the Church of Scientology International allowed to just wander into OSA's offices and go through the files? A. No. Q. Is there some level of security with regard to OSA and its operations even within scientology? A. Within CSI, you mean? Q. Yes.
1 MR. JEFFREY: Thank you, Mr. Cartwright. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record on 3 November 20th, 2013 at 1:30 p.m. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ALLAN CARTWRIGHT NOVEMBER 20, 2013 I, DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, ALLAN CARTWRIGHT, was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was submitted on ___________________ to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination, signature and return to me by ________________________; That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows: NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS ) DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS ) TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH ) OF SCIENTOLOGY ) INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN ) GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY ) DRAKE, ) ) Defendants. ) 207THJUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CHANGES AND SIGNATURE WITNESS NAME: ALLAN CARTWRIGHT DATE: NOVEMBER 20, 2013 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________
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1 2 3 RAY JEFFREY - 03 HOURS:08 MINUTE(S) MARC F. WIEGAND - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LAMONT JEFFERSON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LES J. STRIEBER III - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LISA BARKLEY - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) CELINA WARREN - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) O. PAUL DUNAGAN - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) JONATHAN H. HULL - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) ASHLEY BOWEN - 0 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) STEPHANIE S. BASCON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) That pursuant to information given to the deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, the following includes counsel for all parties of record: RAY JEFFREY & MARC F. WIEGAND, Attorneys for Plaintiff LAMONT JEFFERSON & LISA BARKELY, Attorneys for Defendants RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY AND DAVIS MISCAVIGE LES J. STRIEBER III, CELINA WARREN & GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR., Attorneys for Defendant CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL O. PAUL DUNAGAN, Attorney for Defendant MONTY DRAKE JONATHAN H. HULL & ASHLEY BOWEN, Attorney for Defendants STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL STEPHANIE S. BASCON, Attorney for DAVID LUBOW I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have occurred.
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I, ALLAN CARTWRIGHT, have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, except as noted above. _________________________________ ALLAN CARTWRIGHT THE STATE OF __________) COUNTY OF _____________) Before me, ___________________________, on this day personally appeared ALLAN CARTWRIGHT, known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ___________________________) (description of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and seal of office this __________ day of ________________________, __________. _________________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE STATE OF ____________________ COMMISSION EXPIRES: _____________
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Certified to by me this ______ day of ____________, 2013. ___________________________________ Debbie S. Longoria, Texas CSR #5232 Expiration Date: 12/31/14 Firm Registration No. 539 DepoTexas - San Antonio 13101 N.W. Freeway, Suite 210 Houston, Texas 77040 (888) 893-3767
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FURTHER CERTIFICATION UNDER RULE 203 TRCP The original deposition was/was not returned to the deposition officer on _________________________; If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page contains any changes and the reasons therefor; If returned, the original deposition was delivered to _________________________, Custodial Attorney; That $__________ is the deposition officer's charges to the Plaintiff for preparing the original deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits; That the deposition was delivered in accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was served on all parties shown herein on and filed with the Clerk. Certified to by me this ______ day of ____________, 2013. ___________________________________ Debbie S. Longoria, Texas CSR #5232 Expiration Date: 12/31/14 Firm Registration No. 539 DepoTexas - San Antonio 13101 N.W. Freeway, Suite 210 Houston, Texas 77040 (888) 893-3767
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Warren McShane
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----------------------------------11 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 12 WARREN McSHANE 13 NOVEMBER 20, 2013 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ----------------------------------ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WARREN McSHANE, produced as a witness at the instance of the PLAINTIFF, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on November 20, 2013 from 2:13 o'clock p.m. to 4:20 o'clock p.m. before DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the law offices of HAYNES & BOONE, L.L.P., 112 E. Pecan, Suite 1200, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
Exhibit C
91f27cd7-de21-4279-9335-659418f68b7f
Warren McShane
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MARC F. WIEGAND THE WIEGAND LAW FIRM, P.C. 434 N. LOOP 1604 WEST, SUITE 2201 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78232 (210) 998-3289 marc@wiegandlawfirm.com APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: RAY JEFFREY JEFFREY & MITCHELL, P.C. 2631 BULVERDE ROAD, SUITE 105 BULVERDE, TEXAS 78163 (830) 438-8935 rjeffrey@sjmlawyers.com
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INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................ 2 WARREN McSHANE Examination by Mr. Jeffrey..................... 5
FOR THE DEFENDANTS RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER AND DAVID 11 MISCAVIGE: 12 LAMONT JEFFERSON LISA BARKLEY 13 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 112 EAST PECAN, SUITE 1200 14 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 978-7000 15 lamont.jefferson@haynesboone.com lisa.barkley@haynesboone.com 16 FOR THE DEFENDANT CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL: 17 LES J. STRIEBER III 18 CELINA WARREN DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 19 755 E. MULBERRY, SUITE 500 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78212 20 (210) 822-6666 lstrieber@dcmlaw.com 21 cwarren@dcmlaw.com 22 GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. CLEMENS & SPENCER 23 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1300 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 24 (210) 227-7121 spencejr@clements-spencer.com 25
Signature and Changes............................... 85 6 Reporter's Certificate.............................. 87 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 Ex. 1 Notice.................................... 63 Ex. 2 Affidavit of Warren McShane............... 35 11 12 REQUESTED DOCUMENTS/INFORMATION 13 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 14 (NONE) 15 16 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS NO. PAGE/LINE 17 (NONE) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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FOR THE DEFENDANT MONTY DRAKE: O. PAUL DUNAGAN SARLES & OUIMET 3 370 FOUNDERS SQUARE 900 JACKSON STREET 4 DALLAS, TEXAS 75202 (214) 573-6309 5 dunagan@sarleslaw.com 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL: 7 JONATHAN H. HULL ASHLEY BOWEN 8 REAGAN BURRUS 401 MAIN PLAZA, SUITE 200 9 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-8026 10 jhull@reaganburrus.com abowen@reaganburrus.com 11 FOR DAVID LUBOW: 12 STEPHANIE S. BASCON 13 LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON 297 W. SAN ANTONIO STREET 14 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-2940 15 sbascon@att.net 16 ALSO PRESENT: 17 PAT CAREY, Videographer NEIL LAVIN 18 STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT MARK RATHBUN 19 MONTY DRAKE ALLAN CARTWRIGHT 20 21 22 23 24 25
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VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record on November 20th, 2013 at 2:13 p.m. WARREN McSHANE, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: MR. JEFFREY: Do we want to just say the same appearances as for the deposition of Mr. Cartwright this morning? MR. JEFFERSON: That's good with me. MR. JEFFREY: Same agreement that objection for one defendant is good for all, I agree to that. MR. JEFFERSON: Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFREY: Q. And otherwise, we'll just get started. A. Okay. Q. Mr. McShane, I'm Ray Jeffrey, and I'm here today to take your deposition, okay? A. Okay. Q. And you were here during the deposition of Mr. Cartwright? A. I was. Q. And you understand generally what a deposition is and what the ground rules are? A. Yes, I do.
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Q. As I said with Mr. Cartwright, you need a break, you want a cup of coffee, whatever it might be, just let me know. This is, in some ways, formal, but in some ways informal, so just let me know and that's fine with me. A. I understand. Q. Okay. How old a man are you? A. Sixty-two. Q. And where do you live? A. Los Angeles. Q. Do you live in the same -- no, you don't live in the same apartments as Mr. Cartwright, do you? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you live out on the base? A. The base? I live at the -- the international base Riverside? Q. Yes. A. Yes, I do. Q. Okay. I've seen so many different terms for -- for it, I'm not quite sure what to call it. So, is it okay if we say international base? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. As I understand it, that's a 500-acre compound, so to speak, out near Hemet, California East of Los Angeles?
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Q. How many stories? A. Two. Q. And so, he is on what floor? A. Second floor. Q. And you're on the first floor, I take it? A. Yes. Q. I've read your declarations from other cases, and as I understand it, Mr. Miscavige, David Miscavige travels a great deal, doesn't he? A. Yes. Q. And I'd like to get an idea, with the questions I'm about to ask you, of how much time you spend, first of all, actually in his presence as you go about your workday, okay? A. Sure. Q. Your position is what? A. I'm the deputy inspector general. Q. Of? A. Of RTC. Q. And RTC is the Religious Technology Center? A. Yes, sir. Q. And David Miscavige's position with the Religious Technology Center is what? A. He's the Chairman of the Board. Q. And are you also the president and CEO?
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A. Yes. We call it a campus, but that's correct. Q. Okay. And the -- what Church of Scientology organizations have operations there on the campus in Hemet? A. CSI and RTC. Q. And are they in separate buildings, or are they spread out among various buildings? How does it work? A. Well, CSI is spread out in various buildings. RTC is in one building. Q. And what -- and do you have an office in any particular building? A. In the RTC building, yes. Q. And is that a relatively new building? A. Relatively, yeah. Q. And is that the same building where David Miscavige has an office? A. Yes. Q. And is your office next door to his? A. No, no, it's not. Q. Is it on the same floor as his? A. No. Q. How big is this building, just give me an idea of it? I've never seen it. A. 45,000 square feet.
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A. Yes, I am. Q. So, when it comes to the day-to-day operations of RTC, you're the man in charge of that? A. I'm the one, yes. Q. And when it comes to over -- overall vision and direction and governess in the most general sense of RTC, that would come from the Board of Directors, including David Miscavige? A. Well, the overall governess basically comes from the officers, the day-to-day activities, yes. Q. Sure. But, I've served on some board -boards of directors and they've told us that we're -we're supposed to be about the vision and the officers are about the -- the actual operations. Is that a fair description? A. Sure. Q. Now, are you a member of the Sea Org or Sea Organization? A. I am, sir. Q. And what is your rank? A. Midshipman. Q. And do you have a uniform that you wear on certain occasions? A. Certain occasions, yes. Q. And David Miscavige, does he have a rank in
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the Sea Organization? A. Yes, he does. Q. And what is that? A. He's captain. Q. Is a captain a superior officer to a midshipman? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, in the rank of -- in the level of ranks, yes, it is. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Now, I -- I don't know whether I ever got Mr. Cartwright to agree with me, but I'll see -- or to agree with you, but I'll see if you will agree with you, and that -- you were here when I asked him about your description of the Sea Organization, weren't you? A. Yes, I was. Q. I may be limited to only my copy in the -- in the -- my notebook here. In the Headley case, do you recall giving a declaration? A. Yes. Q. And would you agree with me that this statement is correct that Mr. Miscavige must rely on fully dedicated, thoroughly trained and unflinchingly loyal scientologists to carry out the ecclesiastical
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Q. Okay. And I want to try to quantify that. The only way I can find out is by asking you -A. Sure. Q. -- because obviously I'm not there and I don't have any other way of knowing it. So, if he's out of town and you're in town, obviously, 100 percent of the time, you're not with him, correct? A. Of course. Q. And if he's in town and he's working there at his office at the RTC building on the campus, and you're in your office, just give me a rough idea, in however you want to describe it, of how often you -- he would come to see you or you would go to see him and that you would be in each other's presence. A. I mean, it really varies depending on what he's working on or if I need to see him. Sometimes it will be several times a day, sometimes it's not at all. Q. Okay. And so, we heard from Mr. Cartwright he works long hours. I know it's not unusual in the -- the Sea Organization to work long hours. Do you also work long hours? A. Yes, I do. Q. Okay. Give me a rough idea of a typical day starting and stopping where you finally get to kickback. A. Well, I -- I go to breakfast at 9:00 a.m. and
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functions of the religion? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So, getting back to your daily involvement with David Miscavige, your offices are on different floors of the building, true? A. Uh-huh. Yes. Q. And when he travels, do you always travel with him? A. Not always. Q. Can you give me just an approximate -approximation in terms of percentages of how often when David Miscavige travels that you travel with him, like 50 percent of the time, ten percent of the time, 90 percent of the time? A. Yeah, maybe -- maybe ten percent of the time. Q. Okay. So not that often? A. No. Q. And as he goes about his daily work as the ecclesiastical leader of the church and you go about your daily work as the CEO of, and inspector general of RTC, how much time of the day do the two of you actually spend together in each other's presence doing your jobs? A. Well, it depends where he is. If -- if we're at the international base, I spend quite a lot of time with him.
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I secure at midnight. Q. Okay. So, you're -- you're sort of clocked out, so to speak, by -- by midnight? A. Usually. It's not, you know, that clockwork, but that's the normal time. Q. Certainly, as CEO, you don't have to punch a clock? A. None of us do in the Sea Org. Q. Yeah. But, that would be not an unusual day for you to work from 9:00 in the morning until -- until midnight? A. Well, it's -- it's -- that also includes mealtimes, my study time. Q. Sure. A. Exactly. Q. But, your personal time would usually begin pretty late? A. Yes. Q. And so, during one of these typical lengthy days, if -- if David Miscavige is there working in his office, about how many minutes or hours do you -- would you say that you actually are there with him together? A. Again, sir, it's going to depend on what we're working on. Q. Sure.
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A. It could be a minute, it could be an hour, it really depends on what the topic is that we're discussing. Q. Okay. So, as -- as much as, you know, when it might be a little heavier in terms of your involvement with him, as much as several times a day, as much as an hour each time. Is that a fair approximation? A. Could be. There's -- there's -- there's days where I'd be with him the whole day. It really depends on what we're working on. Q. Okay. Well, you see, my dilemma is, if I'm trying to figure this out, there's a big difference between spending all day with him seven days a week and typically spending maybe an hour a day with him in -- in a week, or ten minutes a day. Is there -- can you give me some guidance so that we understand your interaction? A. It's -- it's very difficult to say because it depends on what he's working on. And I have my responsibilities in RTC and then he has his responsibilities for what he does as ecclesiastical leader of the church. So, you know, for example, he's been in Florida since March and I haven't seen him but once in that time period. Q. And we're now in November. A. Uh-huh.
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doesn't use the phone. Q. And your basis for saying that is what? A. My 30 years experience working with him. Q. Well, if he spends 12 hours in a day outside of your presence, how do you know he doesn't just wait to have phone calls when he's in -- in private? A. Because phone calls, per our scripture, are not a standard form of communication. Like Mr. Hubbard says, phones are psychotic, they have no memory, so we don't use them very often. Q. It's important to have a memory to memorialize things? A. Sure. Q. There's, I think, a saying in scientology, if it isn't written, it isn't true. Isn't that -- or did I get that accurate? A. It's close. Q. Okay. You've probably seen, in this case, a description of a practice in which, as David Miscavige goes about his work, that -- and his -- his -- as he's visiting different scientology facilities, et cetera, there are people there whose job it is to record what he says, and then other people involved in transforming those recorded statements into orders or instructions that are then distributed. You're aware that that claim
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Q. Correct? A. That's right. Q. So, is it fair to say, as difficult as it is to quantify it because of the variability of schedules, is it fair to say that typically Mr. -- or David Miscavige would have many hours a day where he's working outside your presence? A. Sure. Q. When David Miscavige is going about his duties and he is making phone calls, is there some practice that he conferences you in on all of his phone calls? A. Well, one, he rarely makes phone calls, and it depends upon what the topic is when he does. If it relates to my activities, I would be on the phone call. Q. Okay. I didn't ask a very good question. If -- I'm trying to find out, is there any sort of standard protocol that anytime David Miscavige is on the telephone, Warren McShane is on there with him? There's nothing like that, is there? A. There's no standard protocol, no. Q. Okay. A. It depends on what the topic is of the phone call. Q. It would be as-needed? A. Yes, but like I explained, it's very rare. He
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has been made? A. I'm aware of the claim -Q. Okay. A. -- and how ridiculous that claim is, but I'm aware of it. Q. Okay. But that is not true, according to you? A. It's not. Q. Okay. And folks who say that they have seen that occur and have received the orders and have complied with the orders, they're either mistaken or lying, is that your view? A. It's not the same question. Q. Okay. A. What I'm saying is false is that everywhere he goes and every word he says is recorded. There are meetings that occur where there are recordings, and there are. And if somebody received an excerpt of that from based on that meeting, sure, there's some people that would say that. Q. And are you familiar with the practice that I'm touching on, which is that where there is a recording made of David Miscavige's statements, that instructions and orders culled therefrom are then typed up and sent to the appropriate parties as orders? A. I would -- I would call it instructions.
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Q. Okay. A. If -- if he's reviewing a specific submission, for example, that have to do with an issue or a course or something that's going to be, you know, produced by the church, it would go to him for final authority. And if he has points on that, then he would have a meeting on that, and parts of that meeting would probably be recorded as he would go through that particular issue. Q. But, what about things like what the uniform should look like of the staff members, what food they should eat, when they should eat, how the bathrooms should be cared for, how the landscaping should look, that sort of thing, does he -- does he make pronouncements on these things that are converted into orders and are then distributed to the appropriate personnel? A. No, that's ridiculous. Q. Okay. I asked Mr. Cartwright about something called a COB order. Have you ever heard that term? A. Not that term, no, sir. Q. Okay. Is there something that I'm sniffing near that you don't call COB order, but it has a different terminology? A. There are orders that he would issue from time to time.
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Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, Church of Scientology International, RTC, et cetera, that come -- that are originated from David Miscavige, they are top priority orders, and the personnel are required to promptly respond and provide evidence that they have complied. Do you deny that that goes on? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form of the question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm not going to comment on what you claim to be numerous people that are ex-members of the church who have an obsession attacking Mr. Miscavige who are perjurers and admitted, you know, liars. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Have you -A. And if that's -- if you're asking me if I believe what they say, no, I don't. It's false. Q. Okay. But I'm -- okay. So, let's go one step further. Forget about whether we believe what they say. In truth and in reality, does that blizzard of orders come out from a staff dedicated to processing those orders, distributed among all the organizations of the Church of Scientology, and they are top priority and must be responded to with proof of compliance as quickly as possible? MR. DUNAGAN: Object to form.
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Q. Right. A. To get -- mainly on scriptural matters that -Q. I'm talking about -A. -- to the persons who were responsible for that. Q. So the examples, the very mundane examples I gave you about landscaping and meals and details of work, whether they're called COB orders or something else, do you deny that those things exist and are carried out on a daily basis? A. You -- I'm not going to give you an answer on a generality like that, Mr. -- Mr. Jeffrey. If you want to give me specifics as to did he issue an order on this specific subject on this particular time, then I can answer that. Q. Well, how would you know that? A. Well, if I'm there or if I read the order. Q. Right. But other than that, I'm just asking you about practices and procedures within the various corporations that make up the Church of Scientology. A. Uh-huh. Q. It has been described by numerous people that on a daily basis in the Church of Scientology a blizzard of orders come out of an entire staff dedicated to this of the most mundane details of the operations of the
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) In truth and in reality, does that go on? A. No, it does not, sir. Q. Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: Let me interject an objection to the form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Are there high level executives, and have there been high level executives of the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, Church of Scientology International, and the Religious Technology Center that have been imprisoned in doublewide trailers on the campus that are sometimes referred to as the hole? A. No. Q. The only person I have ever heard of mentioned as the warden of the hole is you. Have you served as the warden of the hole? A. This is the first I ever heard of that. Q. Okay. So, you're hearing it for the first time? A. Uh-huh. Q. Have you ever served as the warden of the hole? A. No. Q. Needless to say, it would be grossly improper
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for executives of various church corporations to be imprisoned at the direction of the Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center, wouldn't it, if such a thing were to happen? A. Such things never happened, sir. Q. But, if it were to happen -A. Nobody has ever been imprisoned. Q. If it were to -A. That's offensive. Q. -- happen, that would be grossly improper, wouldn't it? A. Well, I'm not answering that, sir, because it doesn't happen, it never has happened. Q. Have you witnessed David Miscavige physically beating and disciplining executives of organizations other than RTC, that is, CSI, Flag Service Organization, et cetera? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Have I ever observed that? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yes, yes. A. No, I have not. It's just ridiculous. Q. Okay. As I understand your position, it is that David Miscavige is the ecclesiastical leader of the church and he has absolutely no role in the day-to-day operational activities of the various church
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MR. JEFFERSON: And you're kind of getting -THE WITNESS: Sorry. MR. JEFFERSON: -- on subject matter where I need to do that. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: Here's one of those instances. Object to the form of the question. You can answer, if you remember the question. THE WITNESS: Okay. I think I said it was ridiculous because he doesn't micromanage. It's physically impossible for anybody to micromanage a church as large as ours, physically impossible. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Well, let's just say for five minutes a week he micromanaged some aspect of the Church of Scientology International, as an example, that would be outside his role as the Chairman of the Board, RTC ecclesiastical leader of the church, wouldn't it? A. But what do you mean by micromanage? For five minutes, what would he do to micromanage? Q. Tell somebody to do something. A. That's micromanage? Q. Yeah. A. He might tell somebody to do something. Q. But that's -- you have -Page 25
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corporations? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is that true? A. That's correct. Q. And as the Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Center, he would have no corporate authority to do that, would he? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to -MR. DUNAGAN: Form. MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. Calls for legal conclusion. THE WITNESS: Corporate authority to do what, sir? Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) To micromanage and run the operational details of the various scientology corporations on a daily basis. MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. THE WITNESS: Considering he doesn't micromanage -MR. JEFFERSON: Hang on. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. MR. JEFFERSON: Let me just interject an objection before you begin your answer. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
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A. If he -- if he tells somebody I want a film made, or if he tells somebody I want this particular scripture written in a center way, that's hardly micromanaging, sir. Q. What about I don't like the wood on this conference table in the OSA offices in Los Angeles, I want it changed, that would not be within his role as Chairman of the Board of RTC, would it? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form of the question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: I mean, I can't imagine he would do that, but -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. But, you don't need to argue with me, I'm just asking you -A. I'm trying not to, sir. Q. -- a simple, factual question. That wouldn't be within the role that he serves as Chairman of the Board of RTC, would it? A. If he walked into the OSA office, which I don't know why he would, but if he did and went in and saw that the table was all messed up, he may tell the commanding officer of OSA, you know, I think you should replace this table. It's not from his COB RTC position, I mean, any executive would do that. Q. And would that person at OSA then be required
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to submit a compliance report with documentation of proof that his suggestion had been complied with? A. No, of course not. Q. Have you heard that term "compliance report"? A. Sure, it's in the scripture. Q. And are there many, many compliance reports being submitted on a daily basis within the world of scientology to document compliance with instructions, suggestions, orders from David Miscavige? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form of the question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: There are compliance reports that are done, I wouldn't say they're done on a daily basis, where he's issued instructions to do something. And there's, not all the times, but a lot of times there will be compliance reports. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And is there any limit to what he may instruct or suggest or order to staff in the various scientology corporations for which they then have to submit a compliance report? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form of the question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean by limit. He would -- if he's working on a particular piece of scripture or something for the expansion of the
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Q. That come -- that comes from L. Ron Hubbard, doesn't it? A. Uh-huh. Q. And the -- when L. Ron Hubbard was commodore, if he gave an instruction that there was a command intention, that would be complied with, wouldn't it? A. If it was possible, it would be complied with. Command intention is -- is really the setting of the goals, you know, the broad, you know, targets to be obtained to expand the church. Q. What reporting is transmitted from OSA to David Miscavige? A. What time period, sir, are you referring to? Q. From 2009 to today. A. None. Q. From 2004 to 2009? A. None. Q. From 1990 to 2004? A. There's no require -- I guess that's the trouble I'm having with the word. There's no requirement that they would report. Have they ever sent a report, if he's requested a report, they probably sent a report. Q. And are you on the routing for -- for those reports?
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church or whatever, he may issue instructions to whoever the executives may be in charge of that, and they would -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Have you ever heard of -A. -- they would either formally send a compliance report in, or just do what he had suggested to do. Q. Would you give me an example of anytime in your many years in the Sea Organization, an example of refusing to carry out a suggestion or order of David Miscavige? A. On a personal basis, he's -- he's told me to get particular uniforms for RTC staff, and what he had suggested actually didn't work out, and I changed what he had requested. Q. And did he approve the change? A. Yes, he did. Q. Okay. Have you ever refused an order or instruction from David Miscavige? A. Refused, I would -- I wouldn't refuse. I would attempt in all my ability to comply, if I could. Q. And there is something called command intention, you heard me ask Mr. Cartwright about that, didn't you? A. Sure, something Mr. Hubbard wrote.
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A. If the report goes to him, it would go via me. Q. And how often do you get reports from OSA that are routed through you to David Miscavige? A. I can't even remember one. Q. You've seen Mr. Rathbun's declaration in this case, haven't you? A. I sure have. Q. Okay. And he described a protocol for years on a daily basis of reports from OSA delivered to David Miscavige for his eyes only. A. I've seen his declaration saying that. Q. And what personal knowledge do you have as to whether or not that protocol ever existed? A. Well, I was there, for one, through most of those years and -Q. Where was your office? A. It varied at different times, but next to his in some of that time period. Q. In some time period, your office was next to Mr. Rathbun's? A. Yes. Q. And so, if Mr. Rathbun carried a report to David Miscavige, how would you know whether or not he did that? A. Well, I would -- when I would know what the
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report -- if it came from OSA, I would know what the report is because it -- I dealt with OSA. If he sent a report to -- to the chairman about an OSA matter, I would know about it. Q. That's your understanding of the procedure? A. That's what I observed. Q. Right. A. That's what I know. Q. But, you understand Mr. Rathbun's testimony is that there was a report that went on a daily basis from OSA to him and directly to David Miscavige with no Warren McShane involvement? A. Uh-huh. Q. How do you know one way or the other as to whether or not that happened? A. I know what reports came into RTC, sir. What -- what he says is false. Q. And it's false, how do you know that? A. Because I was there. Q. You -- you would be with Mr. Rathbun anytime he received a report from OSA? A. I wouldn't be with him all the time, no. Q. Did you ever see Mike Render in the RTC offices? A. At times.
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A. I know what he was working on when he was at the base. Q. Well -A. I know he was working on PR matters. Q. He was at the base, and in fact, he was imprisoned in the doublewide trailers, wasn't he? A. Nobody imprisoned in the doublewide trailers, sir. Q. Okay. You know what doublewide trailers I'm referring to, don't you? A. Yes, I do. Q. And did they have bars on the windows? A. They did not. Q. Never? A. Never. Q. Did they have guards at the doors? A. No. Q. Did CSI, RTC, FSO executives spend the night in those trailers? A. I don't know about the FSO, but there were nights that they would spend in the trailers, yes. Q. Have you ever heard about Debbie Cook? A. Yes. Q. She spent some nights in the trailers, didn't she?
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Q. He didn't work for RTC, did he? A. No. Q. Who did he work for? A. CSI. Q. And he worked in connection with the Office of Special Affairs, didn't he? A. At times. Q. Sometimes he was commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs, wasn't he? A. Early on, yes. Q. And he left in what year? A. 2007, I think. Q. Okay. And up until he left in 2007, what was his position in relation to the Office of Special Affairs? A. In the later years before he left, he had no connection. He was doing PR work, I believe. That would be the last thing he did was -- was worked on some PR media related matters. Q. Well, you're in RTC? A. Uh-huh. Q. How do you know exactly what Mr. Render is doing over in -- at OSA? A. How I know what he does at OSA? Q. Yeah.
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A. So she says. Q. You were there. A. I never saw Debbie Cook there. Q. Those trailers, those were actually offices for RTC executives at one time, weren't they? A. Never. Q. Who -- who were they offices for? A. They were CMO offices. Q. Tell us what CMO is. A. Commodores and messenger organization. Q. And what do they do? A. They're basically the management of the church. Q. And then, at some point, did their function change from CMO offices to offices where executives from CSI or FSO or some other organization might be working? MR. JEFFERSON: You can answer that question, but I'm going to interject that this is beyond the scope of any jurisdictional issue, so I just ask that you wrap it up. I've allowed you to talk about this, which has nothing to do with contacts between these entities in the State of Texas. MR. JEFFREY: It certainly does, but go ahead. MR. JEFFERSON: It has nothing to do with
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it. MR. JEFFREY: I won't fight with you over that. THE WITNESS: There were -- there were always CMO offices ever since I can remember. There might be other people who worked in there, but they were -Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Are they still there today, the doublewide? A. Yes. Q. Who's in there now? A. CMO. Q. Who's the president of CSI? A. Well, the -- kind of a retired president is Heber Jentzsch. Q. Did he spend some time in the doublewide trailers? MR. JEFFERSON: I'm going to object and instruct you not to answer at this point. And I have read your special appearance and I have read the affidavit, and there's nothing about this, either there or in the deposition notice, that has anything touching on this subject, so I'll instruct you not to answer. You can ask your next question. MR. JEFFREY: I don't agree with you, but
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Mr. Miscavige in this case? A. Travel records? Q. Yes. You -A. No, I did not. Q. You reviewed the records of the travel records of Mr. Miscavige allegedly for 25 years and found only one visit to Texas, correct? A. That's correct. Q. Well, why didn't you produce those records in this case? MR. JEFFERSON: You can address those questions to us. We reviewed matters, documents to be -- to be produced. MR. JEFFREY: Well -MR. JEFFERSON: After lodging appropriate objections. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) What are these records that -- that you reviewed to show that he had only traveled to Texas one time in 25 years? THE WITNESS: Do I answer? MR. JEFFERSON: You can answer that. THE WITNESS: The plane fare records and the travel arrangements and hotel bills. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Did you have to go through boxes of records in order to make this statement in your
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I'm not going to fight over it right now. MR. JEFFERSON: Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Now, you filed an affidavit or declaration on behalf of David Miscavige in the Paul Marrick and Greg Arnold case, didn't you? A. Yes, I did. Q. Contesting the jurisdiction over David Miscavige in Texas. Do you recall that? A. I sure do. Q. I was curious about -- I'm trying to find your declaration from that case. A. Uh-huh. (Exhibit No. 2 marked.) Q. In -- and let me try to get you a copy so you can read along with me. Let me show you Exhibit 2 to your deposition. A. Okay. Q. Paragraph six, if you would, it says: Mr. Miscavige's travel arrangements are made and his travel expenses are paid by RTC. A review of RTC records show that Mr. Miscavige traveled to Texas once in the last 25 years. Did I read that correctly? A. You did. Q. Has RTC produced those records which you felt were important to the issue of jurisdiction over
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declaration or affidavit? A. No. Q. It's just a small amount? A. A small amount of records? Q. Yeah. It seems like 25 years of a man who is on call seven days a week, 365 days a year traveling all over the globe, it seems like there would be a lot of records. A. Well, sir, I wouldn't go through 25 years worth of records if Mr. Miscavige told me "I've been in Texas one time in my entire life." Q. But, what you swore in this affidavit was a review of RTC records show that Mr. Miscavige traveled to Texas once in the last 25 years. A. That's right. Q. Isn't that what you said? A. That's what I said. Q. You didn't say "I checked with Mr. Miscavige and he says he only went to Texas one time in 25 years," did he? A. Yeah. And when I said that and I went onto RTC records and I checked the computers and we pulled up those records. Q. For that one visit to Dallas? A. Uh-huh.
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Q. Yes? A. Yes. Q. But, you didn't review all the records over 25 years to see if maybe there were any other visits or any other involvement with Texas that he didn't mention? A. I didn't have to. Q. Why? A. Because I knew. Q. Because he told you? A. And I knew. I know where Mr. Miscavige goes, I know where he travels. Q. You know, lots of corporate CEOs or top government people, they have scheduling that goes around, itineraries, where they are every day in a calendar format or some other format. Do you receive that for Mr. Miscavige every day? A. No, but if he's traveling out of town going someplace, I know. Q. And how do you find this out? A. Through his office because we make the arrangements. Q. Does he fly commercial or by private jet? A. Both. Q. When was the last time you recall him flying commercial?
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communications to individuals? A. The only phone calls I know she would make is to inform people that there was a meeting. That's usually when the phone calls were made. Q. Does she send text messages or e-mails or other electronic communications to individuals to communicate on behalf of David Miscavige? A. She might on occasion. Q. Have you ever received communications from David Miscavige that come through the communicator? A. No. I've received communications from her. Q. From her in her own voice as opposed to from her transmitting the communication of David Miscavige? A. If it's a text message, it's obviously not in her voice, but it would be from her. Q. You know what I mean, from -A. She has called me and said, "Mr. Miscavige wants to see you," and I would go up to his office. So I take it, that would be from him. Q. I'm talking about situations in which someone receives an electronic message, or even a voice communication, and it comes from Ms. Henley-Smith, but it's basically her repeating the words of David Miscavige to the recipient. Does that not happen? A. I never heard of that.
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A. Maybe three or four years ago. Q. Where was that? A. He went from London to New York, I think. Q. Does -- does Mr. Miscavige, David Miscavige, does he use e-mail? A. No. Q. Explain to me about this communicator thing. Does he have a person who's known as his communicator? A. Yes. Q. Who is that? A. Laurisse. Q. Last name? A. Henley-Smith. Q. I thought I said Stuckenbrock, which was what I thought it was. A. It's a former name. Q. Okay. Kenley-Smith? A. Henley. Q. Henley-Smith? A. Yeah, H. Q. And what does that mean to be the communicator for David Miscavige? A. It's kind of like an executive secretary. Q. Does Ms. Henley-Smith, does she make phone calls for him to pass on instructions or other
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Q. Let's go on in your Marrick Arnold affidavit to paragraph seven. A. Okay. Q. It said: Mr. Miscavige works in offices and lives in housing that are paid for by RTC. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. But, you don't stay there in the same housing as he does, do you? A. Anywhere in the world? Q. You're on the campus, right? A. Sure. Q. But, he has his own living quarters? A. Of course. Q. You don't bunk with him, do you? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. And so, you're not with him when he's in his private quarters, are you, unless for some reason you might be summoned there? A. That's correct. Q. And you say: RTC also pays for all of Mr. Miscavige's phones, including cell phones or Blackberries, and Mr. Miscavige has never had a Texas phone number. A. Uh-huh.
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Q. Do you have records of the phone calls made and the electronic communications made to and from David Miscavige's cell phones and Blackberries? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: I have the phone calls. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) You do? A. Sure. Q. And they're the conventional phone bills that show where the call originated and where the call went? A. Yeah, I mean, they're phone bills. Q. And those -- that's something that could be produced? A. I would imagine so. Q. Okay. Have you, in connection with this case and this special appearance complaining of jurisdiction in Texas, reviewed the phone records and Blackberry messaging records of David Miscavige? A. I reviewed all of the RTC phone records of all the staff members. Q. For this case? A. Yes. Q. Describe that for me. What did you do? A. I went through all of the phone records, which we have them all on computer, and went through every
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Q. But, you do have those records? A. The phone records, sure. Q. And by the way, what kind of cell phones and Blackberries and that sort of thing does David Miscavige have? A. He's got a Blackberry. He used to have a cell phone. I don't think he has a cell phone anymore. Q. Okay. What about Ms. Henley-Smith? A. The same, Blackberry. Q. What reports have you ever seen from Monty Drake that have come to you and -- that have come to you, whether or not you passed them onto David Miscavige? A. I've never received a report from Monty Drake. Q. Okay. What reports from J.R. Skaggs have you received at RTC? A. None. Never even heard of him until this case. Q. What about Dave Lubow, what reports have you received from Mr. Lubow? A. None. Q. Now, I realize your testimony is that it wouldn't happen, it's not done, et cetera, but you have no personal knowledge as to whether or not any such reports were ever transmitted directly to David
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staff member to see if there was any records at all. Q. Of? A. Of any phone calls to Texas or from Texas. Q. And did that include David Miscavige? A. Yes. Q. Now, you can obtain the actual text messages that are sent to and from a Blackberry, can't you? A. I have no idea. Q. Did you look at those? A. I don't even know how you can get those. Q. Did you include, in your review, the records of Laurisse Henley -A. Smith. Q. -- Smith? A. Yes, all RTC staff. Q. So, what you looked for were calls, and I'm interested now in Henley-Smith and Miscavige. A. Uh-huh. Q. You looked for calls between those phones and Texas? A. Yes. Q. Did you look for calls between those phones and any phones associated with the Church of Scientology International's Office of Special Affairs? A. No.
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Miscavige bypassing you, do you? A. There was -- there would be no reports that would ever go to COB without going through me. Q. Okay. I understand what you're saying. A. For most -Q. But, literally, if some such naughty thing were to be done, there would be no way for you to know it, would there? A. It just wouldn't happen, sir. Q. Okay. I understand your testimony and I gave you that at the beginning. A. Yeah. Q. I said, I understand that's your testimony, but if it were done, just as a matter of common sense, you wouldn't know about it, would you? A. Well, if it didn't go through me -Q. Correct. A. -- then, obviously, I wouldn't know about it. Q. Thank you. A. But, it wouldn't happen. Q. Got you. A. You got it? Q. We heard that. A. Yeah. Q. The same thing goes for Mr. -- or David
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Miscavige outside your presence directing some operation in Texas, if you're not there, if you're not a witness to it, it's just common sense, you can't have personal knowledge of that, can you? A. It's not common sense at all, Mr. Jeffrey, because it doesn't happen. I know what Mr. Miscavige does and I know what RTC does, and it doesn't happen, it wouldn't happen. Q. He spends most of his day outside your presence, doesn't he? A. He spends most of his day dealing with church matters. Q. Okay. But, whatever he's doing, whether it's dealing with church matters or smoking a cigar, I don't care what it is, it's not in your presence? A. A lot of things he does is not in my presence, but if it's related -Q. Most of the -A. -- related to OSA, nothing would happen unless it went through me. Q. Well, what -- what is your connection with OSA? A. If it's to do with any trademark matter or something like that, then I'd be involved. Q. And specifically in connection with David
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office? A. I believe she did. Q. Mr. Ben Shaw, did he ever serve in the guardian's office? A. I think so. Q. Neil O'Reilly, for some reason I have a very difficult time calling that name up. We've heard his name a couple of times in connection with this case. A. Uh-huh. Q. What does he do? A. He -- I think he works in invest -investigation department of OSA, OSA International. Q. And he was in the guardian's office at one time, wasn't he? A. I believe so. Q. Okay. And we had a little bit of a rocky road, I'm not sure why this morning, but the basic history is not disputed, is it, that the guardian's office of the Church of Scientology got into some deep trouble years ago, and 11 of its top members actually went to federal prison? A. Individuals -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: -- got into trouble. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Correct. Including the wife
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Miscavige, the term "COB orders," are you familiar or not familiar with that term? A. I mean, there's no term that's called COB orders. Q. Okay. So, it's not a term you're familiar with? A. That's right. Q. And in -- in connection with David Miscavige, the term "compliance report," are you or are you not familiar with that term? A. I am very familiar with the term "compliance report." Q. Okay. A. Any executive who issues instructions or orders for anything would get a compliance report. I get compliance reports for my juniors. Q. Oh. Were you -- did you ever serve in the guardian's office? A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. And how many years? A. Two and a half. Q. Now, David Miscavige's communicator, Laurisse Henley-Smith -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- did she ever serve in the guardian's
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of the founder of the Church of Scientology? A. Yes. Q. And oh, Linda Hamel, she was in the guardian's office, wasn't she? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So -- but there were numerous staff, apparently, that were let go or discharged from service because of their role in the guardian's office? A. If anybody had any connection with any of the activities that occurred, which led to those 11 people going to jail, anything that was done that was, you know, off policy, you know, against the scriptures, they were let go. Q. And there were, as I understand it, a number of controversial activities, but the most significant was the infiltration of the United States Government by agents of the guardian's office that was discovered in a raid by the FBI? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure of all the -you know, exactly the detail of what happened. There were some people that were convicted of, I believe, taking government documents or copying government documents. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) But, there were actual agents
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of the guardian's office that were placed into the justice department and the IRS and -- and government agencies like that? A. The IRS is the one I've heard about, yes. Q. Okay. I recall, and I don't want to go through all 45 or 50 pages of it, but in David Miscavige, one of his declarations, he said that there is a concerted effort made in scientology to make sure that the events and occurrences of the guardian's office is not repeated today. Is that a fair statement? A. Well, I'd have to see that statement. I mean, obviously, Mr. Miscavige disbanded the guardian's office for the illegal activities they were involved in, and that they were, you know, doing things that were against the scriptures. Q. And after -A. And that was -- you know, he -- he does whatever he can do to make sure that never happens again. Q. And after the disbanding of the guardian's office, the Office of Special Affairs, we call OSA, was created, correct? A. Yeah, I think it was in 1982, '81, '82. Q. And the guardian's office dealt with external facing matters, didn't it?
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Technology Center, aren't you? A. Correct. Q. Neil O'Reilly was a member of the guardian's office and he is a member of the Sea Org and he is in charge of what, investigations at the Office of Special Affairs? A. I'm not sure if he's in charge of investigations. He works in the investigations department. Q. And Laurisse Henley-Smith was a member of the guardian's office and she's a member of the Sea Org, isn't she? A. Yes. Q. And she is now the communicator or personal assistant to David Miscavige, isn't she? A. Yes, she is. MR. JEFFREY: Are we at a break time? MR. JEFFERSON: Sure. MR. SPENCER: Going about an hour. MR. JEFFREY: Take a little break. Yeah. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. We're off the record at 3:17 p.m. (Recess from 3:17 to 3:35.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 3:35 p.m.
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A. Yes. Q. Public relations, legal and investigations, correct? A. And social coordination activities, the church's community benefit activities, those kind of programs. Q. Okay. And the Office of Special Affairs deals with legal matters, investigatory matters and public relations matters also, doesn't it? A. Yeah, and the social betterment activities and -Q. And Linda Hamel, who was in the guardian's office that was disbanded, she's actually the commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs, correct? A. Correct. Q. And she's a member of the Sea Org, isn't she? A. Sure. She has to be. Q. And Allan Cartwright, who was in the guardian's office, is the Director of Legal Affairs for OSA, isn't he? A. Yes. Q. And he's a member of the Sea Org? A. Of course. Q. And you were a member of the guardian's office and you're the president and CEO of the Religious
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Mr. McShane, I've heard it articulated many times, but would you tell us, what is the function of the Religious Technology Center as opposed to the Church of Scientology International, or any of the other scientology corporations? A. Well, simply put, Religious Technology Center is responsible for the orthodoxy of the religion itself and to ensure that the -- the services and materials of Mr. Hubbard are pursuant to his original writings and that they are followed. We own the trademarks of -within the scientology religion, dianetics scientology, et cetera, and we license those to some other church, Church of Scientology International, and they're responsible for sublicensing those trademarks to all of the churches internationally, and they have certain standards they have to adhere to in those licenses, and you know, enforcement of the marks themselves. Q. So, the Religious Technology Center is not operating all the -- the churches and missions of scientology around the world, is it? A. That's correct. We're not involved in any management activities. Q. Instead, as I understand it, it's protecting the integrity and the intellectual property of the scientology religion itself?
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A. The integrity and the orthodoxy of the scripture, yes. Q. Okay. And -- but among all the scientology corporations, the corporation whose charter is to protect the intellectual property of scientology and dianetics is the Religious Technology Center? A. The trademarks -- the trademarks, yes. Q. Okay. As -- as opposed to some other intellectual property? A. Copyrights. Q. Copyrights are not within RTC? A. That's correct. Q. Just the trademarks? A. That's right. Q. And so, the ultimate authority and the -let's just leave it as that. Let me start over. The ultimate authority with regard to protection of the trademarks of scientology and dianetics is RTC? A. As the owner of the marks, yes. Q. Correct. A. The ultimate. Q. And as I understand, from reviewing the documents produced by RTC and CSI, the primary purpose of the investigation, we can call it, with regard to the Rathbuns, was protection of the trademarks?
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MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, ultimately it rests with RTC, but CSI, as the exclusive licensee for the marks, is held responsible for enforcement and the integrity of those marks. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) But, right in the agreement between RTC and CSI, it says that the ultimate authority rests with RTC, correct? A. As with any trademark, yes. Q. And, in fact, you authorized the investigation of Mr. Rathbun, didn't you? A. I wouldn't say I authorized it. Q. Did you approve of it? A. I approved of the -- the fact that it should be an investigation, but it was already ongoing when I found out about it. Q. Well, you've produced the correspondence back and forth purporting to be between you and Mr. Cartwright. A. Uh-huh. Q. And in it, Mr. Cartwright reports to you that this matter has come up with Mr. Rathbun, and you, as far as I can tell, give it your endorsement and seal of approval that they move forward with it. Is that not a
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MR. SPENCER: Object to form. MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I mean, they're -- my understanding is, the investigation of Mark Rathbun was started because of the interest in this violation of the trademarks, that's how it began. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. So, are we disagreeing or agreeing? A. I'm not sure. Q. I thought we were agreeing, but -A. Yeah. Q. -- by the time we get done, it's not that clear. A. Yeah. Q. The investigation began for the stated purpose of investigating and protecting the trademarks of scientology and dianetics against -A. That's how -Q. -- squirrelling by Mr. Rathbun? A. That's how it started. It kind of morphed into a lot more after that, but that's how it started. Q. And the ultimate responsibility and authority for just that sort of matter in terms of the integrity of the scientology religion rests with RTC?
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fair characterization? A. No, I don't think it's a fair characterization. Q. How would you characterize it? A. That he had -- he had called me and said that there was indication that Marty was squirrelling or starting to deliver services and that he had briefed the attorneys, and I believe that they were going to investigate the matter. Q. And you -- we have this letter that you did, "Dear Allan" letter February 10 of '09. A. Uh-huh. Q. Regarding Rathbun. Do you know that letter? A. What's the date? Q. February 10 of '09. A. Okay. Q. Thanks for the call and alert on Marty possibly squirrelling. A. Yes. Q. Did you write this, or did David Miscavige write this? A. You got to be kidding me. I wrote that. Q. No, I'm not kidding you. I'm asking you a question. A. I wrote the letter, sir.
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Q. Did you write the letter at the direction of David Miscavige? A. No. Q. Did he tell you what to say? A. No, he did not. Q. When did you actually write this letter? It's dated February 10 of 2009. Was it written back then or more recently? A. I believe it was written back then. That's the date on it. Q. You know, it's interesting, RTC and CSI amended their license agreement a few months into this Marty Rathbun investigation, didn't they? A. I did an addendum to the license, yes. Q. And it amended a paragraph in there that basically pulled RTC out of the picture and put CSI front and center, correct? A. It gave CSI the ability to sue on their own. Q. And even though RTC is the one with the authority to -- and the charge to protect the trademarks of the religion? A. Exclusive licensee -MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: -- can bring suit.
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take care of this, leave RTC out of it, we definitely won't involve David Miscavige. And then at the end, you say: Please send me his posting showing his intentions/announcements to squirrel and any use of the marks. MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) If you wanted to be left out of it, why would you ask for that? A. The intention of that letter was to emphasize to Allan that CSI is responsible for enforcing the marks. I am always interested in somebody violating the marks, so I wanted to see exactly what Marty was doing because I thought it was just outrageous that somebody in Marty's position, knowing all that he knows and all that he's been through and charged with over the years, that would be that crazy to start squirrelling. Q. Well, you said, "I expect you to do so without pulling RTC into this situation." A. Yes. Q. But yet, you want to be kept advised of what's going on? A. Yeah, I'm interested in what's happening with -- with the trademarks. Q. And what would be inappropriate about RTC being pulled into a situation regarding the protection
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Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Sure. And isn't it true that the reason why that was done a few months later was because RTC was trying to avoid jurisdiction in the State of Texas? A. Absolutely not. Q. Okay. And also, after the Rathbun investigation began, you saw, and it was the subject of Mr. Cartwright's deposition this morning, that suddenly years after the fact, Elliot Abelson, attorney for CSI, created and had a contract executed with the private investigator that had been working for him for several years? MR. SPENCER: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) You saw that, didn't you? MR. SPENCER: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I observed what went back and forth between you and he. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Is that how you-all operate is that after you have a concern about involvement of RTC or David Miscavige, you then create contracts and documents in order to further insulate yourselves? A. No, that's not how we operate at all. The document had nothing to do with Marty. Q. It's interesting in this letter, you make these statements about how OSA -- OSA is supposed to
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of its trademarks which it's charged with projecting? A. You have to understand that this is -- one of the reasons why Marty got booted out was because he tried to get RTC involved in everything, including Mr. Miscavige. Mr. Miscavige made it very clear to me, after Marty was gone, that RTC was not to be involved in these situations. He's been saying that since 1993 when we got exemption. He said litigation was over, we are not to get involved in litigation, that's the mother church's responsibility. And since 2004 to 2005 in through 2006, it was CSI that was doing the cease and desist letters, handling domain names, handling infringers, handling squirrels because he made it very, very clear to me that it's not RTC's job to do that, it's CSI's job. And I enforced that for all those years, and that letter was basically my reminder of Allan that we were not to be involved in this. Q. You worked with Mr. Rathbun, didn't you? A. Sure did. Q. And he worked in RTC, didn't he? A. Yes, he did. Q. Did not work in CSI? A. Maybe in the early days.
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Q. Well, but I mean, just I'm talking about the last 10 or 20 years, he was an RTC guy, wasn't he? A. Since '87. Q. Since '87. And you said that's why Marty got booted out? A. Uh-huh. Q. Did you walk him out and show him the door and have him carry out his box with his belongings? A. No. Mr. Miscavige is the one who booted him out. Q. Well, describe for me your understanding of how it was, just physically, that Marty Rathbun left the premises of the campus in Hemet, California. A. How he left the campus? Q. Yeah. A. He got on his motorcycle and went out the gate and left. Q. In the middle of the night? A. I don't remember when it was. Q. So, him leaving like that, you call him being booting -- being booted out? A. No, not at all. It's two different time periods. Q. Was Mr. Rathbun confined at any time before he got on his motorcycle and got away to the doublewide
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A. I have no idea. Q. Well, you've seen it. A. I don't remember what's on pages one and two, sir. Q. Okay. A. That was a long time ago. Q. What about page four, we don't have that one here either? A. I don't know. MR. JEFFERSON: You produced it to us. THE WITNESS: Yeah, exactly. MR. JEFFREY: You-all have a copy of this, you didn't have to get this from us, did you? MR. JEFFERSON: I didn't have the whole report. MR. JEFFREY: I'm not -MR. JEFFERSON: That's the only version I've ever seen is the one you produced to us. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) RTC or OSA have this report, don't they? A. I have the report. It came -- it was filed in the Headley case. Q. Okay. A. It was somehow illegally gotten out of the sheriff's office.
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trailers that we discussed earlier? A. Confined, no. I mean, obviously, he wasn't confined because he left. Q. Well, people escape from prisons all the time, don't they? MR. DUNAGAN: Objection, form. MS. BASCON: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Don't know, sir. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Doesn't mean they're not confined. A. I don't know. (Exhibit No. 1 marked.) Q. Okay. Okay. You've got Exhibit 1 there? A. Yes. Q. Let's look at the Riverside County Sheriff's Report, what fragments of it we have. A. Okay. Q. You've seen that before, haven't you? A. Yes, I have. Q. And you did go to the Riverside County Sheriff's Department and make a criminal complaint against John Brousseau? A. Yes. Q. And what was on pages one and two of this report?
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Q. Okay. A. It wasn't a public document. Q. I have an alibi at that time. A. Yeah. Well, Marty doesn't. Q. Okay. Well, maybe it was Marty. A. Yeah. Q. So, let's get to the meat of the matter. You know, this case, or at least the proceedings we're in right now, relate to whether or not RTC has availed itself of the laws and the protections of the State of Texas and has done business there and conducted activities here. And there -- you realize there are a couple of matters in this report that seem to shed some light on that, don't you? A. I don't know if it sheds any light on it, but I understand why you're using it. Q. Well, let's go to the page six of -- six/eight of the report and look at line -- beginning at line 28. A. Okay. Q. Mr. McShane did not hear from J.B. as anticipated. He began to suspect that J.B. would attempt to meet up with Marty Rathbun; is that true? A. That's true. Q. And the investigator says: Who was described to me as a former church member and now Church of
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Scientology antagonist. Did you tell the investigator that? A. Well, I told him a lot more than that, but that's what he wrote down. Q. Sure. But, it's accurate what he wrote down? A. Well, not fully, but yeah, in essence. Q. Mr. McShane told me RTC had previously contracted with a private security firm in the State of Texas to monitor Mr. Rathbun's activities. Did I read that correctly? A. You read it correctly. Q. And is that correct? A. No, sir. Q. What did you tell him? A. Told him that -- that RTC had contacted the church who had Mr. Rathbun under surveillance, and that I had suspected that J.B. would go there, and that I wanted to find out if he did show up there because he had stolen computer equipment and stuff. Q. Have you ever prosecuted Mr. Brousseau for any such thing? A. I sure tried. Q. And what happened? A. The DA's office did not file charges. Q. Mr. McShane contacted the security firm and
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you know, that Marty Rathbun was a former church member, I never said that, I said he was a former RTC member. That's what I mean about he got very confused as to the churches, and I probably should have been more specific. Q. Go up to line five, if you would. A. Which page, sir? Q. Same page, six. A. Okay. Q. The investigator writes: It was not clear where he was going, referring to J.B., correct? A. Yes. Q. Or the nature of the trip. However, it was not unusual for J.B. to come and go due to his work projects. His ability to come and go from the facility is in contrast to other church members/employees who do not enjoy the same freedom of movement. What did you mean by that when you told him that? A. Those are not -- those are not my words, those are his words. What I told him was the fact that J.B., because of his -- his post or his job, was always -- had to go in and out all the time, he was buying things and he was always going to different projects. Q. In contrast to what? A. In contrast to most staff members who have a position in or on the base didn't have the necessity to
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provided them with J.B.'s photo and information and asked that he, McShane, be contacted in the event J.B. was seen meeting with Mr. Rathbun. Did he get that wrong? A. He sure did. Q. He even goes to the extent of clarifying the "he" there and puts in parenthesis McShane be contacted. A. Uh-huh. Q. And you're saying he just got that wrong? A. Yes. Q. You didn't tell him that? A. What I told him is that I had talked to the church -- I think that's probably where he got mixed up because it's probably my fault because I use the word "church" a lot, and I told him that the church had, you know, Rathbun under investigation -- under surveillance, and that I had sent photographs to OSA to relay to the investigators so that they could identify J.B. if he showed up there. And I suspected that the investigators would then, if he did show up, would make contact with OSA and that I would find out eventually. Q. RTC can be referred to as a church, can't it? A. It's a Church of Scientology, yes, sir. Q. Yeah. A. But, just like he says above where it says,
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go in and out all the time. Q. The base is surrounded by fencing, isn't it? A. Sure. Q. And it has razor wire, some type of security wire on the top of it? A. It's got ultra barrier is what we call it. Q. What is that? I've never heard of it. A. It's a -- it's a metal that's got -- I don't know what you call it -- metal spikes or whatever sticking up. Q. Something you wouldn't want to get caught up in? A. Yeah, you wouldn't want to get caught up in it. Q. Okay. And are there -- is there video surveillance of the fence? A. Yes. Q. And are there motion detectives, whatever they're called, where if you grab onto the fence and move it, that the -- that an alarm goes off? A. Yeah, there's what we call shakers, yeah. Q. And is there a security force there at the base that rides around on motorcycles and watches the perimeter, shall we say? A. Well, there's usually one security person on a
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motorcycle that's -- maybe he -- if there's an alarm or something, he would go there on his motorcycle. Q. And how many gates are there in and out of the base? A. Ten. Q. And do they have security personnel? A. No. Q. Are you talking about pedestrian gates, or vehicle gates, or a combination? A. Vehicle gates. Q. Vehicle gates? A. Vehicle gates. Q. Okay. Did you contact the security firm in Texas to find out if John Brousseau was seen there? A. No, did not. Didn't even know who they were. Q. What? A. I said did not know who they were. Q. Who the security folks -A. Yeah. Q. Who the investigators were? A. See, that -- that's his word, I wouldn't even have used that word, security firm or whatever. I think he got that mixed up with the security firm that I contacted was the forensic computer people. Q. Now, the -- the trip that David Miscavige made
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for the opening of this church? A. I have no idea. Q. How often did she communicate with David Miscavige during those preparations about this opening that he was spearheading? A. I don't know if she did directly or not. If she did, it would probably be a few times. Q. And you wouldn't know because you weren't with him, correct? A. Well, if there was communication, I would have seen the communication. Q. If there was a phone call? A. You have to understand, Mr. Jeffrey, Mr. Miscavige doesn't use the telephone. I don't know what misinterpretation you have or whatever. Phones are very rarely used. Q. He is the leader of a worldwide church organization, isn't he? A. Worldwide church, yes, he is. Q. Thousands of staff? A. Yes. Q. Thousands of members? A. Yeah. Q. Churches all over the world? A. Yes.
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to Texas that you acknowledge, which was for the opening of the Dallas org? A. The new Dallas church, yes. Q. Can I call it church as opposed to org? A. Org, church, whichever. Q. Okay. And how long were the activities necessary to get that church opened up in Dallas? How long did that go on? A. The renovations of the church? Q. Yeah, the whole -- everything to prepare it for the grand opening. A. Probably nine months to a year. Q. Okay. And that's -- the opening of that church was something that was spearheaded by David Miscavige, wasn't it? A. He does all of the, what we call, ideal works. Q. And did he send Angie Blankenship to Dallas to work on getting that church ready to be opened up? A. Well, I don't think he sent her. She was there as part of her job. Q. And was Angie Blankenship recognized in the Church of Scientology as basically a representative of David Miscavige? A. No. Q. And how long did she spend in Dallas preparing
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Q. He doesn't use the telephone? A. He uses the phone when he needs to get ahold of somebody, like I said before, usually for a meeting. Q. Okay. A. Okay. But, he rarely uses the phone. I'm not saying that he never has. Especially if he's out of town, there may be a conference call that he would have. Q. Well, you said he's been in Florida since March? A. Uh-huh. Q. And we're in November? A. Yeah. Q. Has he ever called you? A. Yes. Q. How often does he call you? A. I've talked to him maybe twice in that time period. Q. So, from -- so that we know the level of your interaction with Mr. Miscavige, David Miscavige -MR. JEFFREY: I'm doing good, aren't I, Lamont? MR. JEFFERSON: I appreciate that. Thank you. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So that we understand the extent of your interaction with David Miscavige, he's
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been working in Florida for -- since March of 2013 until now late November of 2013, correct? A. Correct. Q. And in that time, you've had two telephone conversations with him? A. Direct phone calls, yeah. Q. Well, what are the indirect phone calls? A. There's been conference calls with various CSI executives. Q. Anybody from OSA? A. No. Q. And so, there have been conference calls where you're on the call and David Miscavige is on the call? A. Uh-huh. Yes. Q. How many of those have there been? A. Dozens. Q. Dozens? A. Uh-huh. Q. But, in terms of you actually having a one-on-one telephone conversation with him, you've had two? A. I believe so, yeah. Q. And so, if he is Chairman of the Board of RTC and you are president and CEO and inspector general of RTC, what kinds of communications are you having with
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Q. From March to November, you've had two telephone calls with David Miscavige. Do you do a lot of text messaging back and forth with him? A. None. Q. None. Do you do a lot of e-mailing back and forth with him? A. None. Q. So, so that we understand it in your role here testifying concerning Mr. Miscavige and his activities, including his contacts with the State of Texas, from March to November of 2013, you've had two telephone calls with him, no text messages, no e-mails, and what, no in-person conversations? A. One in person. Q. One in person? A. Uh-huh. Q. So, we've got two telephone calls and one in-person conversation from March until November? A. Yes. There's no need for anything else because I know what he's doing. Q. Okay. What's he doing right now? A. Right now? Q. Yeah. A. He's down at the FSO. He's down in Clearwater.
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him if you're not having telephone conferences with him? A. On those two phone calls, is that what you mean? Q. Yeah. If you're not having two phone calls with him, how are you communicating with him? A. I don't necessarily communicate with him. I'm not sure what you mean. He's working -- he's working on church matters, he's working on expansion of a church. He's been in Florida working on the new building that we just opened up -Q. Right. A. -- that we had over this past weekend. Q. Right. A. That I'm sure you've seen in the media, 10,000 scientologists there, he opened up the building. He had events, he gave four events in three days, and he's been working on the scripture that ultimately was released over the weekend. It's a 25-year project that he was working on. That's what he's been doing. So, I don't necessarily talk to him about that because I don't do that, he does. Q. Okay. I feel like -- I'm sure it's my own inadequacy, but I'm having a difficult time here just trying to get through this subject. A. Uh-huh.
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Q. Is he on the phone? A. Huh? Q. Is he on the phone right now? A. I doubt it. Q. Is he in the restroom? A. Huh? Q. Is he having a meal? You don't know what he's doing right now, do you? A. No, I don't. Neither do you. Q. Okay. But, I'm not giving my testimony swearing under oath that I know what he's doing all the time. Isn't that what you're swearing? A. I didn't -MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You don't have to answer that. MR. JEFFREY: Sustained. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) And maybe I missed out on something. Do you talk on the phone with Laurisse Henley-Smith? A. Rarely. Q. Do you e-mail back and forth with her? A. No. Q. Do you text back and forth with her? A. No. Q. Is she down there with David Miscavige in
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Florida? A. Yes, she is. Q. RTC has a website, doesn't it? A. Yes, it does. Q. And one of the things, if not one of the primary things in that website, is a feature where scientologists can alert RTC so that -- to help RTC fulfill its watchdog role over the orthodoxy of the religion? A. It's not a watchdog role. There's -- there's a facility for parishioners to report things to RTC that they see. There may be good or bad that they observe. Q. Okay. And you've produced, in this case, input received from Texas by RTC through that website? A. I don't believe so. Unless you can show me something, I don't believe there's anything from Texas. Q. But, there are materials -- there -- there is input concerning Mr. Rathbun, correct? A. There were whatever -- how many reports there were about his squirrelling, yeah. Q. And you have redacted from those the names and addresses or whatever other identifying information there is concerning those reporting? MR. JEFFERSON: He didn't redact those, we did.
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the Rathbun investigation? A. I know he hasn't. Q. You know he hasn't? A. Yeah. Q. How do you know that? A. He told me. Q. Mr. Miscavige told you that? A. Uh-huh. Q. When did he tell you that? A. When he put together his declaration. Q. In Mr. Miscavige's declaration, he said that he had never even heard the name Monty Drake. A. That's correct. Q. And did you see Mr. Rathbun's affidavit concerning that? A. I did. Q. That, in fact, he discussed Monty Drake with David Miscavige all the way back in the 1990s, and that David Miscavige found the name humorous for some reason, and instructed him to have Monty Drake carry out various functions? A. That's what he claims. Q. Were you there? A. Was I there when? Q. When these communications went on between
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MR. JEFFREY: You collectively. MR. JEFFERSON: No, we his lawyers did. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Yeah. Are you aware of that? A. Sure. Q. So, do you know whether or not you've received any input from folks in Texas? A. I don't believe there was any from anybody in Texas. Q. Did you look yourself or did you have someone look? A. I did. Q. During the months and years that have gone on with regard to the so-called investigation of Mr. Rathbun in Texas, have you received reports from OSA detailing the events? A. The events? Q. Yeah. What was seen, observed, what interactions were had with Mr. Rathbun, et cetera? A. No. Q. Have you accessed any websites containing videos or photographs or other informational materials concerning the Rathbun investigation? A. I wouldn't even know where to look, no. Q. Do you know whether or not David Miscavige has viewed any photographs, videotape or video concerning
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Mr. Rathbun and David Miscavige. A. Didn't need to be. It wouldn't have happened. Q. Okay. Will you answer my question? A. Uh-huh. Q. Were you there when any such communications went on between David Miscavige and Mr. Rathbun? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. THE WITNESS: I couldn't have been there on what you -- what he claims in that declaration because it didn't happened, so I wouldn't have been there because it wouldn't have happened. And Mr. Miscavige told me he's never heard of Monty Drake before in his life, and I believe him, not Marty Rathbun. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) So, you have no personal knowledge, you just -- if it comes to believing David Miscavige or believing Mark Rathbun, you believe David Miscavige? A. I have a lot of personal knowledge, sir. I've worked with Mr. Miscavige for 30 years. I know what he does and what he doesn't do. Q. Okay. Thank you. But, will you answer my question? You don't have any personal knowledge about what communications went on between David Miscavige and Mark Rathbun outside of your presence, but as I
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Warren McShane
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understand what you're saying, you believe what David Miscavige has told you about that as opposed to what Mr. Rathbun says about it? A. Yes, sir. MR. JEFFERSON: Object to form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Yeah. Q. (By Mr. Jeffrey) Okay. Did RTC have an investigation done of a former RTC member in Dallas in the 1990s? Was it Allan Walters? A. RTC member? Q. Was -- was Allan Walters a staff member of RTC? A. Never. Q. Who was he an employee of? A. I have no idea. I think he was a mission holder, I think, at one point. Q. Was he suspected of somehow abusing the marks of scientology and dianetics? A. Yeah, he was squirreling and using marks, and I think some of the copyrights. Q. So, you do know who he is? A. I know who Allan Walters is, sure. Q. Okay. Okay. And what was RTC's involvement in that investigation in Dallas, Texas?
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1 MR. DUNAGAN: We'll reserve. 2 MS. BASCON: Reserve. 3 MR. JEFFREY: We're done. 4 MR. HULL: We'll reserve. 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record on 6 November 20th, 2013 at 4:21 p.m. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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A. We weren't involved in the investigation. OSA did the investigation. We were looking at getting evidence of infringement because he might be sued. MR. JEFFREY: I think I'm done, but can we just take not a lengthy break, but just a couple of minute break, step out? MR. JEFFERSON: Sure. MR. JEFFREY: If you-all want to wait here, you're welcome to. We'll just step out. MR. JEFFERSON: Okay. VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. We're off the record at 4:15 p.m. (Recess from 4:15 to 4:20.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 4:20 p.m. MR. JEFFREY: Mr. McShane, you'll be terribly disappointed, but that's all the questions I have for you at this time. Perhaps some other lawyer in here has some questions, we'll see. Thank you for your time. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. JEFFERSON: We'll reserve our questions. MR. SPENCER: We'll reserve. MR. STRIEBER: Reserve.
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CHANGES AND SIGNATURE WITNESS NAME: WARREN McSHANE DATE: NOVEMBER 20, 2013 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________
91f27cd7-de21-4279-9335-659418f68b7f
Warren McShane
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1 2 3 RAY JEFFREY - 01 HOURS:44 MINUTE(S) MARC F. WIEGAND - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LAMONT JEFFERSON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LES J. STRIEBER III - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LISA BARKLEY - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) CELINA WARREN - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) JONATHAN H. HULL - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) ASHLEY BOWEN - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) STEPHANIE S. BASCON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S)
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I, WARREN McSHANE, have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, except as noted above. _________________________________ WARREN McSHANE THE STATE OF __________) COUNTY OF _____________) Before me, ___________________________, on this day personally appeared WARREN McSHANE, known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ___________________________) (description of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and seal of office this __________ day of ________________________, __________. _________________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE STATE OF ____________________ COMMISSION EXPIRES: _____________
4 5
6 7 That pursuant to information given to the 8 deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, 9 the following includes counsel for all parties of 10 record: 11 RAY JEFFREY & MARC F. WIEGAND, Attorneys for Plaintiff 12 LAMONT JEFFERSON & LISA BARKLEY, Attorneys for Defendants RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER AND DAVID 13 MISCAVIGE LES J. STRIEBER III, CELINE WARREN & 14 GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR., Attorneys for Defendant CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL 15 O. PAUL DUNAGAN, Attorney for Defendant MONTY DRAKE JONATHAN H. HULL & ASHLEY BOWEN, Attorneys for 16 Defendants STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL STEPHANIE S. BASCON, Attorney for DAVID LUBOW 17 18 I further certify that I am neither counsel for, 19 related to, nor employed by any of the parties or 20 attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was 21 taken, and further that I am not financially or 22 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 23 Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 24 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have 25 occurred.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION DEPOSITION OF WARREN McSHANE NOVEMBER 20, 2013 I, DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, WARREN McSHANE, was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was submitted on ___________________ to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination, signature and return to me by ________________________; That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows: NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS ) DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS ) TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH ) OF SCIENTOLOGY ) INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN ) GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY ) DRAKE, ) ) Defendants. ) 207TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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Warren McShane
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24 (Page 90) DepoTexas www.DepoTexas.com
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Exhibit D
Steven Gregory Sloat
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----------------------------------11 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 12 STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT 13 OCTOBER 29, 2013 14 ----------------------------------15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, produced as a witness at the instance of the PLAINTIFF, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on October 29, 2013 from 1:07 o'clock p.m. to 1:39 o'clock p.m., before DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the law offices of HAYNES & BOONE, L.L.P., 112 E. Pecan, Suite 1200, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
DepoTexas www.depotexas.com
Exhibit E
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 FOR THE DEFENDANTS RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER & DAVID 8 MISCAVIGE: 9 LAMONT JEFFERSON HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 10 112 EAST PECAN, SUITE 1200 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 11 (210) 978-7000 lamont.jefferson@haynesboone.com 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL: 13 LES J. STRIEBER III 14 DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 755 E. MULBERRY, SUITE 500 15 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78212 (210) 822-6666 16 lstrieber@dcmlaw.com 17 GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. CLEMENS & SPENCER 18 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1300 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 19 (210) 227-7121 spencejr@clemens-spencer.com 20 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONTY DRAKE: 21 O. PAUL DUNAGAN 22 SARLES & OUIMET 370 FOUNDERS SQUARE 23 900 JACKSON STREET DALLAS, TEXAS 75202 24 (214) 573-6309 dunagan@sarleslaw.com 25 APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARC F. WIEGAND THE WIEGAND LAW FIRM, P.C. 434 N. LOOP 1604 WEST, SUITE 2201 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78232 (210) 998-3289 marc@wiegandlawfirm.com
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INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................ 2 STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT Examination by Mr. Wiegand..................... 5
Signature and Changes............................... 34 6 Reporter's Certificate.............................. 36 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 (NONE) 11 12 REQUESTED DOCUMENTS/INFORMATION 13 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 14 (NONE) 15 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS 16 NO. PAGE/LINE 17 (NONE) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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FOR THE DEFENDANT STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT: JONATHAN H. HULL REAGAN BURRUS 401 MAIN PLAZA, SUITE 200 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-8026 jhull@reaganburrus.com FOR DAVID LUBOW:
6 STEPHANIE S. BASCON LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON 297 W. SAN ANTONIO STREET 8 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-2940 9 sbascon@att.net 10 ALSO PRESENT: 11 VITALY ALTOIZ, Videographer NEIL LAVIN 12 MARK RATHBUN MONTY DRAKE 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7
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VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record October 29th, 2013 at 1:04 p.m. STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. WIEGAND: Q. Mr. Sloat, my name is Marc Wiegand and I represent Monique Rathbun. MR. JEFFERSON: Marc, just out of an abundance of caution, it may not be necessary, but I'd suggest that, No. 1, we go around the room, and just -MR. WIEGAND: Sure. MR. JEFFERSON: -- just for appearances sake, introduce ourselves. So, Lamont Jefferson representing Religious Technology Center, RTC, and David Miscavige, who are specially appearing in this matter, and the discovery is limited for that purpose by agreement of the parties and judge's order as we discussed at the deposition of Mr. Drake, which was held earlier this morning. MR. SPENCER: George Spencer, counsel for CSI. MR. STRIEBER: Les Strieber for CSI. MR. HULL: Jonathan Hull for Steve Sloat and Ed Brian.
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MR. DUNAGAN: Paul Dunagan for Monty Drake. MS. BASCON: Stephanie Bascon for David Lubow. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Mr. Sloat, would you state your full name for the record? A. Steven Gregory Sloat. Q. And do you sometimes use an alias? A. No. Q. Do you sometimes go by Greg? A. Yes. Q. And sometimes by Steve? A. Yes. Q. But, Greg is your middle name? A. Greg. Q. Okay. When were you born, sir? A. July 5th, 1955. Q. Are you a Texas resident? A. I am. Q. Where do you -- where do you live? A. Houston, Texas. Q. And tell me your educational background starting with high school, if you would. A. High school degree from Dallas High School, Lake Highlands. I got a Bachelor's Degree in Criminal
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Q. Okay. The -- do you -- I understand you also have a professional background in law enforcement. A. Yes. Q. Tell me about your law enforcement employment. A. Started as a Houston area police officer, I don't recall the years, then became a Deputy U.S. Marshal for the Justice Department. Q. When did you -- when were you a police officer for -- was it for the Houston Police Department? A. Houston Independent School District. Q. Houston Independent School District? A. (Witness nods head.) Q. Approximately, what years? A. I want to say '77. Q. Until when? A. '78. Q. And then you became a -- you worked for the marshal's office? A. Deputy United States Marshal was my title. Q. Okay. And you started working for them in '78? A. I think '78. Q. And how long did you work for the marshal's office? A. About ten years.
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Justice from the University of Houston and a Master's Degree in Business Administration from University of Houston Clearlake. Q. And what years did you get your -- your bachelor's degree and your master's degree? A. '76 -- I believe '76 or '77 on my bachelor's. '81 on my master's. Q. And how are you employed? A. I'm an author and an independent contractor. Q. And are you a licensed private investigator? A. I am not. Q. What is -- what was your last -- I take it you're self-employed now? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Have you worked for any private investigation companies or businesses at any time? A. Yes. Q. Who have you worked for? A. Skaggs & Associates. Q. And is that the only private investigation company you've worked for? A. Yes. Q. Was that in connection with the investigation of Mark and Monique Rathbun? A. Mark Rathbun.
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Q. To '88? A. '87, '88. Q. And then after that time, what did you do? A. In '81, I started a business with my then wife, jewelry and watch repair company. Q. And from '78 to '81, what -- what was your employment? A. Deputy U.S. Marshal. Q. So, you were with the U.S. Marshal's Office all the way until you started business with your wife? MR. HULL: Objection, form. That's not what he said. MR. WIEGAND: Well, that -- that's my question. MR. HULL: Okay. THE WITNESS: Concurrent. MR. HULL: Well, I couldn't tell if it was a question or a statement. THE WITNESS: Concurrent, to answer your question. From '81 also in the company, it was still the Deputy U.S. Marshal. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) And what business did you have with your wife? A. Jewelry and watch repair for retail stores. Q. Okay. And do you still do that?
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A. No. Q. Are you married? A. No. Q. The -- when did you start writing as a professional, or as a professional activity? A. 1998. Q. And what type of writing do you do? A. Fiction thrillers. Q. And have you had any other jobs with companies or businesses other than the business you had with your wife? A. Yes. Q. What -- what else have you done, sir? A. Became the president of a biogenetic research company in the '90s. I was doing turnaround work, taking over a company and turn it around and then exiting. Q. What years was that? A. '97 and then '98. It was another company in Lafayette, Louisiana. Q. What were the names of those companies? A. First one was Cryogenic Solution and the second one was RDM Technologies. Q. And where did -- where were those companies headquartered?
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A. No. Q. So, it's just contract work off and on? A. (Witness nods head.) Q. When did you first start working with Skaggs & Associates? A. Late January of this year. Q. Was -- was your first engagement with Skaggs the investigation of Mark Rathbun? A. Yes. Q. And then since then -- since that engagement, have you done other contract work for Skaggs & Associates? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Are the -- the other investigatory work that you've done, are they related in any way to scientology? A. No. Q. So, the -- did -- how did J.R. Skaggs contact you? How did he find you? MR. HULL: Objection, form. You can answer, if you know the answer. THE WITNESS: I've known him for several years through some common friends, retired federal agents. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Do you have a -- do you
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A. Cryogenic Solutions in Houston, and RDM out of Lafayette, I moved the headquarters to Houston. Q. And those are the only other professional relationships you had outside of the marshal's office and the business with your wife after federal marshal's office? A. Yes. Q. And the -- I understand that you had a -- you were engaged by J.R. Skaggs to assist in an investigation of Mark Rathbun. Is that basically correct? A. Yes. Q. Have you done any other private investigation work besides that? A. Outside of the -- outside of Skaggs & Associates, the answer is no. Q. Okay. Have you done other private investigation work with Skaggs & Associates -A. Yes. Q. -- other than this engagement regarding Mark Rathbun? A. Yes. Q. Okay. How long have you been doing that? Is that a steady employment for you, let me ask it that way?
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advertise in any way your availability to do investigatory work? A. No. Q. So, would it be safe to assume that Mr. Skaggs located you or knew that you might be available because of your personal relationship with him? MR. HULL: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) How did you first meet Mr. Skaggs? A. Through some retired CIA people that -- that I knew in Houston in a social situation, not professionally. Q. Okay. Is Mr. Skaggs a scientologist? A. I don't know. Q. Are you a scientologist? A. I am not. Q. Were you familiar with scientology before you began this engagement to investigate Mr. Rathbun? A. Very slightly. I had a friend that was a scientologist. Q. Did Mr. Skaggs tell you whether you had been checked out in any way to determine whether or not you would be an acceptable contractor for this type of work? A. I don't know.
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Q. Do you know if -- if you were investigated yourself? A. I don't know. Q. What did -- when did the topic of the investigation of Mr. Rathbun come up? Do you remember the date? A. Late January, as close as I can get. Q. Yeah. And what were the circumstances? A. He called me and told me about a case that a long-term client of his out of California, a PI firm, had wanted to do an investigation on a person who had been taking business away from scientology church, and monitor the coming and going. Q. And his long-term client in California, what was the name of that PI firm? A. I don't know. Q. Didn't know at the time and never found out? A. No. Q. The -- did Mr. Skaggs tell you who he was reporting to? A. No. Q. Did -- did you report to Mr. Skaggs? A. Yes. Q. Did you report your investigatory activity to anyone other than Mr. Skaggs?
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A. I guess it was six to seven times. Q. And during what time frame was that? A. February through August. Q. And did -- did Mr. Skaggs identify any organization within the Church of Scientology that was receiving reports about your work or his work? A. No. Q. Was Mr. Skaggs doing any investigation himself regarding Mr. Rathbun or in connection with what you were doing? MR. HULL: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: He was my -- my boss, my contractor. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Okay. I'll -- I'll restate it. Did Mr. -- do you know if Mr. Skaggs was doing investigatory work regarding Mark Rathbun or Monique Rathbun? MR. HULL: Objection, form. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Let me just restate it. A. Yeah. Q. Do you know if Mr. Skaggs was doing any investigatory work regarding Mark Rathbun? A. No. Q. No, you don't know? A. I don't know, actually.
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A. No. Q. And did you discuss your investigatory work regarding the investigation of Mark Rathbun with anyone other than Mr. Skaggs? MR. HULL: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) The -- how would -- how would you report to Mr. Skaggs about what you were doing? A. Telephonically, sometimes e-mail, a written report sent via e-mail. Q. And were you given -- how would you receive instructions from Mr. Skaggs? A. Either telephone call or e-mail. Mostly telephone calls. Q. And do you still have those e-mails on your computer? A. Yes. Q. Did -- did you make notes of -- of what your assignments were when you would discuss with Mr. Skaggs -A. No. Q. -- what he wanted to do? A. No. Q. Okay. Did -- how many times were you given instructions by Mr. Skaggs?
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Q. Okay. He may have been, but you don't know? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. Did you -- do you know if anyone else besides yourself was doing any investigatory work regarding Mark Rathbun? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you come in contact, during your investigation, with anyone else who was doing investigatory work of Mark Rathbun? A. No. Q. So, did you work completely by yourself in connection with your investigation? A. Yes. Q. And what was the -- what was it you were trying to find out? A. To monitor the activity, coming and goings of people on the driveway of the Rathbun place of business is what I thought it was where he was seeing clients. Q. And why were you monitoring the people who came and went from Mr. Rathbun's residence? MR. STRIEBER: I'll object at this point. I think you've gotten to a point where you're going beyond the scope of this deposition being special
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appearance of RTC and Mr. Miscavige. MR. HULL: And I'll instruct you not to answer the question. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you report -- what did -what kind of information did your report contain? Let me -MR. STRIEBER: Same -Q. -- strike the question and start over. MR. STRIEBER: Kind of same -- are you starting over or is that your question, I'm sorry? MR. WIEGAND: I'm starting over. MR. STRIEBER: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you provide video -- did you take any video of Mark Rathbun -A. No. Q. -- or of his residence? A. No. Q. Did you take still photographs of Mark Rathbun or his residence? A. I did not, the cameras did. THE WITNESS: Explain it? MR. HULL: No. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Okay. Did you set up the cameras? A. Yes.
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to answer that. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) So, the -- what -- how did you use that photographic information? Did you provide it in terms of digital files, or hard copy photographs, or how was that provided to Mr. Skaggs? MR. STRIEBER: Same objection. MR. HULL: Same instruction. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you provide the photographic images from the cameras you set up to Mr. Skaggs? A. Possibly. Q. And are you not sure whether you successfully got them to him? A. I don't know if he monitored the site that the pictures were available at. Q. Okay. So, what was the -- where was the information from the cameras going? A. Via cellular link to a site, Internet site. Q. Okay. And did you have access to that Internet site? A. I did. Q. And what was the address of that site? A. I don't know. Q. Do you have information that would -- do you have some file or something that would enable you to
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Q. Do you see a distinction there between you making those photographs and the cameras making them? A. Yes. Q. I just want to understand how you think. That's -- all right. So, you set up some cameras to take photography, or take photographs of what? A. Of the driveway in the adjacent property to my lease property. Q. Okay. And where did you set those cameras up? A. One facing the Rathbun premises driveway, and one on the other side of my property facing the road -roadway. Q. How many cameras were there? A. Eventually, three. There were a total of three. Q. And where was the third one? A. It was located on a tree where a deer stand was pointing away from the Rathbun property. Q. And what was the purpose of that camera? A. Because I had seen somebody -MR. STRIEBER: Just a minute. We're into merits discovery again and outside the scope of the purpose of the deposition, being special appearance facts related to Mr. Miscavige and RTC, if any. MR. HULL: I'm going to instruct you not
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answer that question as to what the digital location of that site is? A. I might. It was a URL address. Q. Yeah. MR. WIEGAND: Would you be willing to provide that to us? I'd like to -MR. HULL: Well, you can make a discovery request. I mean, we're not going to respond to it here today. MR. WIEGAND: Okay. MR. HULL: You can certainly make a discovery request. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Who else had access to that site? A. I don't know. Q. Did Mr. Skaggs tell you why the information was being sent electronically to that website? A. Yes. Q. What did he say? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, instruction not to answer based upon exceeding the scope of discovery. MR. HULL: Don't answer. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Well, did he tell you who would have access to that site?
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MR. STRIEBER: Same objection. MR. HULL: Same instruction. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) The -- did Mr. -- Mr. Skaggs ever discuss with you David Miscavige? A. No. Q. Did Mr. Skaggs ever discuss with you Religious Technology Center? A. No. Q. Did he ever discuss with you an entity known as RTC? A. No. Q. Did he ever discuss an entity called Church of Scientology International or CSI? A. My initial instructions included the fact that Mr. Rathbun used to work for CSI. Q. Okay. And was -- was it your understanding that CSI was interested in what he was doing now? MR. HULL: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) And was it your understanding that CSI had access to the photographic information that your cameras were getting? A. I don't know. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. HULL: Objection, form.
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A. Business. Q. And the -- were you paid hourly or monthly or flat fee? A. Hourly. Q. Did you submit written invoices? A. Yes. Q. What was your hourly compensation? A. $80.00 an hour. Q. And about how much total compensation did you make from -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. -- investigating Mr. Rathbun? MR. HULL: Don't answer that question. It exceeds the scope. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you do any research regarding Mark Rathbun? A. Yes. Q. How did you do that research? A. General Google searches and YouTube and that sort of thing, social media. Q. And what did you find out about Mr. Rathbun? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Exceeds the scope. MR. HULL: Direct you not to answer. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you do any research
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MR. STRIEBER: And objection based upon it exceeds the scope of this deposition's discovery. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) How were you paid? A. By check. Q. And was -- what account was the check drawn on? MR. HULL: Object to the form of it. I think that goes beyond the scope of this. MR. WIEGAND: Well, it depends on, you know, if it -- if it was drawn on the Church of Scientology account. MR. HULL: Why don't you ask him if it was drawn on the Church of Scientology account, which of course, is a generally appearing defendant, so what you really want to know if whether it's drawn on RTC or David Miscavige account, so I think that's an appropriate question. So, you can tell him whether it was drawn on the account of either of those two defendants. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Well, go ahead and answer your counsel's question. MR. HULL: Yeah. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) All right. Was it drawn on the account of an organization or a business?
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regarding Monique Rathbun? A. No. Q. Did you find out information regarding Monique Rathbun? A. Yes. Q. Did you report that information to Mr. Skaggs? A. No. Q. Is the only information that was put onto this digital site where the camera information was going, was it just the photographic information? A. Yes, of the driveway. Q. You also got photographic images of the Rathbun's house, didn't you? A. No. Q. And the -- how many written reports did you make? A. Probably four to six. Q. Was your employment terminated? A. No. Q. You still involved in investigating Mr. Rathbun? A. No. Q. The -- have you done any further -- so you -do you consider that you're still engaged by Mr. Skaggs to investigate Mr. Rathbun?
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MR. HULL: I'm going to object to the form of the question. It exceeds the scope clearly of any jurisdictional question that's at issue here, and I'm going to direct you not to answer that question. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you hire anybody to assist you or -- in connection with the investigation of Mr. Rathbun? A. No. MR. STRIEBER: Same objection. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you instruct anybody with regard to assisting you in some way regarding the investigation of Mr. Rathbun? A. No. Q. Did anyone work with you in connection with the investigation of Mr. Rathbun? A. No. Q. Where is -- the name of the business you were working for is called J.R. Skaggs & Associates; is that correct? A. The name is Skaggs & Associates. Q. Okay. What is their address? A. I'm not sure. It's on San Felipe. Q. In Houston, Texas? A. Houston, Texas. Q. Okay. Have you been to that office?
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response? I just didn't hear it. THE WITNESS: I said yes, I have had. Yes, I have. MR. HULL: He's talked to Skaggs. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) And what were your communications with Mr. Skaggs about? MR. HULL: I'm going to object to the form of the question. It exceeds the scope of this deposition for sure. I'm going to instruct you not to answer the question. You're talking about post-litigation discussions and he's not going to tell you about those. That's not going to happen here today. MR. WIEGAND: So, any communication with Mr. Skaggs after the date this suit was filed -MR. HULL: You can't establish jurisdiction using that evidence, something that he talks to him about afterwards, that has nothing to do with it. You already made your assertion of jurisdiction at the time you filed the suit. It also -so, it's way past the scope of what this should be about. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) After -- after the suit was filed, did he ever discuss with you any matters regarding this lawsuit? MR. HULL: Objection, form. It exceeds
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A. One time. Q. And -- and did you deal with anybody at Skaggs & Associates other than J.R. Skaggs? A. The only person I saw there was his secretary. Q. How many people are employed by Mr. Skaggs? A. I don't -- I don't know. Q. Is there more than one person in that office? A. It's a shared office. Q. You mean Mr. Skaggs and his secretary? A. I believe there's a number of people that -that stay at the same, or use the same suite. Q. Okay. So, there are other businesses in the same suite? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. Do you know what those other businesses are? A. No, I do not. Q. When was the last time you did any investigation work regarding Mark Rathbun? A. August, first part of August. Q. Have you had any instructions since then? A. No. Q. Any communication with Mr. Skaggs? A. Oh, yes, uh-huh. MR. STRIEBER: I'm sorry, what was your
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the scope. Don't answer the question. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) I'm going to ask you if you've had any communication with a number of people, okay, and by communication, I mean in person conversations, telephone conversations, e-mail, text messages, letters, you know, telegraph, semaphores, smoke signals. You understand it's a very broad definition? A. I do. Q. Okay. Have you had any communication at any time with David Lubow? A. No. Q. Do you know who David Lubow is? A. No. Q. Have you had any communication with -- at any time with Warren McShane? A. No. Q. Any communication at any time with Linda Hamel? A. No. Q. Do you know who Linda Hamel is? A. No. Q. Mr. Skaggs ever discuss her with you? A. No. Q. Mr. Skaggs ever discuss Warren McShane with
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you? A. No. Q. Have you had any communication with or about Allen Cartwright? A. No. Q. Have you had any communication with or about David Miscavige? A. No. Q. Have you had any communication with or about Bart Parr? A. No. Q. Any communication with or about Richard Hurst? A. No. Q. Any communication with or about Joann Wheaton? A. No. Q. Any communication with or about Jim Norman Moore? MR. STRIEBER: Real quick, are you saying "communications with her"? MR. WIEGAND: I'm saying "with or about." MR. STRIEBER: You're not referring to a her? I thought I was hearing "communications with her about." MR. HULL: "With or -- with or about" is what you're saying?
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
No. Kristin Gatano? No. Kathleen O'Gorman? No. Fritz Cavanaugh? No. Donatella Cavanaugh? No. John Brousseau? No. Judy Fontana? No. Humberto Fontana? No. Donna Morrow? No. Richard Howd? No. Peter Manzel? No. Ben Shaw? No. Neil O'Reilly? No.
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MR. WIEGAND: With or about. MR. STRIEBER: My apologies. MR. WIEGAND: That's all right. I apologize if I'm mumbling. Q. (By Mr. Wiegand) Did you understand my question? A. I did. The answer is no. Q. Okay. Any communications with or about Ralph Gomez? A. No. Q. Any communications with or about Monty Drake? A. Until yesterday, no. Q. Any communications with or about Kurt Weiland? A. No. Q. Any communications with or about Neil O'Reilly? A. No. Q. Any communications with or about Charles Earl? A. No. Q. Any communications with or about the following people: Gavino Ida? A. No. Q. Gloria Ida? A. No. Q. Tommy Davis?
1 Q. Have you had any communications with or about 2 the Church of Scientology International? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Or the Office of Special Affairs? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Or OSA? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Or RTC? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Or the Religious Technology Center? 11 A. No. 12 MR. WIEGAND: I pass the witness. 13 MR. JEFFERSON: No questions. 14 MR. STRIEBER: We'll reserve ours. 15 MR. DUNAGAN: I'll reserve mine. 16 MS. BASCON: Reserve. 17 MR. WIEGAND: Thank you. 18 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 1:36 p.m. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT OCTOBER 29, 2013 I, DEBBIE S. LONGORIA, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was submitted on ___________________ to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination, signature and return to me by ________________________; That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows: NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT ) Plaintiff, ) ) VS. ) COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS ) DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS ) TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH ) OF SCIENTOLOGY ) INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN ) GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY ) DRAKE, ) ) Defendants. ) 207TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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CHANGES AND SIGNATURE WITNESS NAME: STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT DATE: OCTOBER 29, 2013 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________
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Page 37 1 2 3 MARC F. WIEGAND - 00 HOURS:32 MINUTE(S) LAMONT JEFFERSON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) LES J. STRIEBER III - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) O. PAUL DUNAGAN - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) JONATHAN H. HULL - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) STEPHANIE S. BASCON - 00 HOURS:00 MINUTE(S) That pursuant to information given to the deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, the following includes counsel for all parties of record: MARC F. WIEGAND, Attorney for Plaintiff LAMONT JEFFERSON, Attorney for Defendant DAVID MISCAVIGE & RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER LES J. STRIEBER III & GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR., s Attorneys for Defendant CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL O. PAUL DUNAGAN, Attorney for Defendant MONTY DRAKE JONATHAN H. HULL, Attorney for Defendant STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT STEPHANIE S. BASCON, Attorney for DAVID LUBOW I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have occurred.
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I, STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, except as noted above. _________________________________ STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT THE STATE OF __________) COUNTY OF _____________) Before me, ___________________________, on this day personally appeared STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ___________________________) (description of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and seal of office this __________ day of ________________________, __________. _________________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE STATE OF ____________________ COMMISSION EXPIRES: _____________
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Thomas W. "Tommy" Davis
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CAUSE NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN IN THE DISTRICT COURT Plaintiff VS. COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY DRAKE Defendants 207TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT ************************************************ ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS DECEMBER 4, 2013 ************************************************ ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS, produced as a witness at the instance of the Plaintiff, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 4th day of December, 2013, from 10:24 a.m. to 2:39 p.m., before Shelly M. Tucker, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand at the offices of Scott, Douglass & McConnico, LLP, 600 Congress Avenue, Suite 1500, Austin, Texas, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and/or the provisions stated on the record.
Exhibit F
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Electronically signed by Shelly Tucker (401-392-034-2674)

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1 2 3 4 5 6 - and 7 ELLIOTT S. CAPPUCCIO PULMAN CAPPUCCIO PULLEN & BENSON, LLP 2161 N.W. MILITARY HIGHWAY, SUITE 400 9 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78213 (210) 222-9494 10 ecappuccio@pulmanlaw.com 11 FOR THE DEFENDANTS DAVID MISCAVIGE AND RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER: 12 LAMONT A. JEFFERSON 13 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1200 14 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 978-7000 15 lamont.jefferson@haynesboone.com 16 FOR THE DEFENDANT CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL: 17 LES J. STRIEBER III ISAAC J. HURON 18 DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 755 E. MULBERRY, SUITE 500 19 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78212 (210) 822-6666 20 lstrieber@dcmlaw.com ihuron@lawdcm.com 21 - and 22 GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. 23 CLEMENS & SPENCER 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1300 24 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205-1531 (210) 227-7121 25 spencejr@clemens-spencer.com 8 APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: RAY JEFFREY JEFFREY & MITCHELL, P.C. 2631 BULVERDE ROAD, SUITE 105 BULVERDE, TEXAS 78163 (830) 438-8935 rjeffrey@sjmlawyers.com
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INDEX PAGE Appearances......................................... 2 THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS Examination by Mr. Jeffrey...................... 5 Examination by Mr. Jefferson.................... 161 Further Examination by Mr. Jeffrey.............. 170 Changes and Corrections............................. 179 Signature........................................... 180 Reporter's Certificate.............................. 181
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 NUMBER DESCRIPTION 14 Exhibit 1 Handwritten note 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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FOR THE DEFENDANTS STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL.: ASHLEY BOWEN REAGAN BURRUS 401 MAIN PLAZA, SUITE 200 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-8026 abowen@reaganburrus.com FOR DAVID LUBOW:
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ALSO PRESENT: 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JORDAN WILLIAMSON, VIDEOGRAPHER MARK RATHBUN NEIL LAVIN STEPHANIE S. BASCON LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON 297 WEST SAN ANTONIO STREET NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-2940 sbascon@att.net FOR THE WITNESS: STEVE WINGARD SCOTT, DOUGLASS & MCCONNICO, LLP 600 CONGRESS AVENUE, SUITE 1500 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78701 (512) 495-6300 swingard@scottdoug.com
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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Today's date is December 4th, 2013. The time is 10:24 a.m. We are now on the record. Will the court reporter please swear in the witness. THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFREY: Q. Good morning, Mr. Davis. My name is Ray Jeffrey and I'm here to take your deposition. Do you understand that? A. I do. Q. Do you -- do you understand what case you're being called as a witness in? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. It's -- I represent a lady named Monique Rathbun. You don't know her, do you? A. I do not. Q. Have you ever seen her? A. I have not. Q. You do know her husband, Mark "Marty" Rathbun, don't you? A. I do. Q. Okay. A couple of ground rules -- I know that you have given at least one deposition before, but let me
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just go over them. If I ask a question that you don't understand, it is most likely that I asked a bad question. Please just let me know and I'll rephrase it and try to make it better. If you want a break at any time, you just tell us and we'll take a break. If you need clarification on any question that I ask, please feel free and tell me and I'll try to clarify it. Okay? A. (Nods head.) Q. Is that all -- you need to answer -A. Sorry. Q. -- out loud. A. Audible responses. Q. Okay. A. Yes, understood. Thank you. MR. JEFFERSON: While we're in the pause, let me just again -MR. JEFFREY: Say something? MR. JEFFERSON: -- state for the record that I'm Lamont Jefferson here appearing for the specially appearing defendants, Religious Technology Center and David Miscavige. We're here for a jurisdictional deposition as ordered by the court. The only proper subject for interrogation of this witness or any witness at this stage in the discovery is for jurisdictional purposes,
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Q. And before that where did you reside? A. Los Angeles. Q. And as I understand it, you were a staffmember with the Church of Scientology. A. Correct. Q. And you were, or are, a member of what's called the Sea Organization? A. I think you'd have to be more specific on that question. Q. Okay. Well, I'm going to be. Are you today a member of the Sea Organization? A. I am. Q. And you were, of course, back for many years before you moved to Austin in 2011. A. That's not a specific question. Q. Well, I'm just going to sustain your objection for now. And how many years have you been a member of the Sea Organization? A. Since January of 1991. Q. Okay. And are you currently working on staff with any of the scientology corporations? A. I am not. Q. What are -- what are the terms of your
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which in our opinion means specifically untacked between my clients and the State of Texas. And so questions that go beyond the -- that scope, we will likely object to. Of course, the witness can answer what he has the -- what he's -- what he's willing to answer. MR. JEFFREY: Sure. And we'll stand on our pleadings and motion papers as to what we think the issues are. Also, I'll agree to The Three Musketeers Rule: Objection for one is objection for all of the defendants. That's fine. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So -- are you ready? Can we get under way? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Mr. Davis, how old a man are you? A. 41 years old. Q. And where do you live? A. Austin, Texas. Q. What's your address? A. 218 Buckeye Trail. Q. And how long have you resided in Austin, Texas? A. A little -- a little over two years. Q. Okay. Do you remember when it was that you moved here? A. Fall of 2011.
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separation from active employment with the Church of Scientology? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I am not, nor have I ever been, an employee of the Church of Scientology. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are you saying that as to the term "Church of Scientology" or are you saying it as to any scientology organization or corporation? A. Any scientology organization or corporation. Q. Okay. What was your relationship as a member of the Sea Org in working on behalf of any scientology corporation? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Probably the simplest answer to that is I was a volunteer religious worker. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So do -- you didn't get your -- a little cash payment every week, or whenever it was, with a little invoice paying you for your services? A. I'm not sure I understand what that means. Q. Well, you were a member of the Sea Org since 1991, did you say? A. Correct. Q. You're not aware that most Sea Org members do receive some pay? They get 50 bucks a week or something like that?
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A. Yeah. I received a small stipend on a weekly basis. Q. Okay, okay. So that's what you're -- you're saying you're not actually an employee when you just get the stipend. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Those are your words. I don't think that's a question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, I thought your words were that you were not an employee. A. That is correct. Q. You were a volunteer. A. Correct. Q. But you received a stipend. A. Correct. Q. Did you file tax returns over the last 20 years? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. You'd have to be more specific. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Have you filed tax returns over the last 20 years at any time? A. I have, but not due to income from the Church of Scientology -Q. And -A. -- or my stipend or anything related to the Church of Scientology.
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received your stipend in cash or in a check. Is that correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. It varied. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. When you become a member of the Sea Org, you sign a contract committing yourself to serve the church for a billion years. Isn't that true? A. That is correct. Q. And you today are an employee of a business in Austin, Texas, I guess, aren't you? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. No. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Who -- who are you an employee of today? A. I'm an employee of a company in California. Q. Okay. But you reside here. Does that company have offices here? A. It does not. Q. So you work from your home and then you travel as needed? A. Correct. Q. And are you a full-time employee of that company? A. I am.
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Q. So you didn't -- you would not report that as income, the stipend that you got from the Church of Scientology? A. Honestly, I don't recall how that was handled. It was not something that I had to handle. If there was withholding taxes, that was handled by the church. So I'm not aware of how those matters were taken care of. Q. Did your stipend come in cash? A. Look. You know, honestly, Mr. Jeffries [sic], I feel like we're kind of off into the weeds of the finer points of how staffmembers and volunteers and church staff get paid. And I think to be fair, I'm kind of the wrong guy to be asking that. It's not something I particularly recall how that got handled or what got handled or the intricacies thereof. So I don't know that I can help you so much. I'm not sure where we're headed here. Q. Okay. Rather than that long discourse, you could just say "I don't remember," if you're worried about time here -A. Sounds good. Q. -- Mr. Davis. A. I don't remember. Q. We can take a lot of time or a little time. You don't remember whether you were --
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What is the company? Colony Capital, LLC. What is Colony Capital, LLC? It's a private equity firm. MR. WINGARD: Objection. Mr. Jeffrey, can you help me understand what this has to do with the jurisdictional issue? MR. JEFFREY: Well, I've only been doing this for 30 years. But my understanding is that, every witness, we're entitled to find out who they are, where they're from, et cetera, so that we can weigh the value and credibility of their testimony. So I'm not going to go into any great detail about -MR. WINGARD: Okay. MR. JEFFREY: -- his employment but just who is he, where does he work, et cetera. MR. WINGARD: Fair enough. I just -MR. JEFFREY: And in particular, I'm -to -- to telegraph, I'm curious about what his status is today with regard to the defendants in the case. That obviously goes to the weight of his testimony. MR. WINGARD: Sure. But you're asking him about his company that he works for, which is not related to the Church of Scientology -- what their business is. And I was -4 (Pages 10 to 13)
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MR. JEFFREY: Right. MR. WINGARD: -- just curious how that's -how that relates to jurisdiction over -MR. JEFFREY: Well, I'm -MR. WINGARD: -- David Miscavige. MR. JEFFREY: I'm curious how he is a member of the Sea Organization yet he works full-time for another company in some other line of business. I just want to know what other line of business. MR. WINGARD: Okay. MR. JEFFREY: That's all. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What -- what line of business is your -- tell me what the company is. Colony Capital? What -A. Correct. Q. What -- what type of company is that? A. Private equity. Q. And what does that mean? A. It is an investment management entity, a type of investment management company. Q. Okay. And what is your position? A. I am responsible for marketing, investor relations, sales, public relations, media relations, things like that. Q. Okay. And do you do that on a full-time basis?
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Q. Okay. A. -- unless otherwise specified. Q. Okay. And what was your reason for leaving full-time volunteer service with the Church of Scientology International? Was that your last post, by the way, Church of Scientology International? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. A. Church of Scientology International is the last church that I worked for. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So let me start over, then. What was your reason for leaving full-time service with the Church of Scientology International? A. I'm currently on a leave of absence. Q. Okay. A. And I don't believe I need to explain anything beyond that. Q. Well, you're here as a witness pursuant to subpoena, and you need to answer whatever questions you're asked unless there's some reason for you to be instructed not to answer. A. Well, my reasons are personal and private so I don't have any reason to expand it beyond that. MR. WINGARD: If you want to -- if you want to rephrase the question, I think you can get the information that you want. If you want to ask Mr. Davis
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A. I do. Q. Are you performing any services -- let's say over the last two years -- for the Church of Scientology? A. No. Q. And you understand when I say Church of Scientology, I'm just speaking generally about the umbrella of the different organizations that make up the Church of Scientology. If we need to be specific, I'll refer to a particular corporation. But otherwise, I'm just using it generically. Okay? A. I -- I would actually prefer, if you're referring to an entity that I worked for -Q. Uh-huh. A. There are only two that I ever worked for. Q. Okay. A. One was -Q. And who were they? A. -- the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre International. Q. Uh-huh. A. And the other was the Church of Scientology International. And those were the only two churches I ever worked for. So for the purposes of my answer, if you say church or Church of Scientology, I am only and specifically referring to those two entities --
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did he leave because of anything that David Miscavige or the RTC -- if you want to focus it on that, I think you'll find out the information you need. But he does have personal private reasons why he left, and I will assert an objection based on his right of privacy to not answer a question about why he left -- or why he's taken -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well -MR. WINGARD: -- a leave of absence from the church. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) -- I was told by Monique Yingling that you left because your wife had cancer. Is that what we're talking about? MR. WINGARD: I'm going to assert an objection. I'm going to instruct him not to answer on the grounds of his -- invading his privacy. MR. JEFFERSON: I join in the objection. Also, the question is harassing. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Departure from service with the Church of Scientology can be a complicated thing, can't it? A. Not in my experience. Q. It can involve being approached by church members concerning the reasons for leaving and the need to return to the church and properly route out and -- and
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those sorts of things. That's what I mean by "complicated." MR. WINGARD: Objection, form, if that's a question. A. I -- I don't even know how to answer that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. I don't even know if it's a question. Q. Okay. So you're on a leave of absence. What are the terms of that leave of absence? A. I'm currently not actively working for, or as a volunteer for, the Church of Scientology. Q. And -- but you could return at any time if you so desired or that worked with your -- what was going on with your life? A. That is correct. Q. And do you have a letter or any form of written documentation with regard to the Church of Scientology International stating that? A. I do. Q. Okay. And who is the author of that letter? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I am. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You gave yourself your own leave of absence? A. I requested a leave of absence and it was
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A. Wilson Goldrick. Q. When did you last speak with Linda Hamel? A. I don't recall the date. It was the day I was served in this case. Q. Did you call her? A. I did. Q. Okay. And what did she tell you? A. That she would get back to me. Q. By the way, I meant to ask. Who is paying for your attorney? Is it you or is it some scientology entity? A. The Church of Scientology is paying for my attorney. Q. Is? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. The Church of Scientology International, to be specific. Q. Office of Special Affairs? A. Church of Scientology International is paying for my -Q. Okay. A. -- lawyer. Q. And when did -- so you spoke with Linda Hamel and what did she tell you?
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1 granted. 2 Q. Okay. So someone signed off on it? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Who was that? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. And you're a married man? 7 A. I am. 8 Q. Who is your wife? 9 A. Jessica. 10 Q. And what was her maiden name? 11 A. Feshbach. 12 Q. And was she a member of the Sea Org? 13 A. She is. 14 Q. Oh, she is a member of the Sea Org. And is she 15 also on a leave of absence? 16 A. She is. 17 Q. Is she employed? 18 A. She is. 19 Q. Where does she work? 20 A. In Austin. 21 Q. For what company? 22 A. A real estate company. 23 Q. Named? 24 A. Brokerage. 25 Q. Named?
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A. That she would get back to me. Q. Okay. And -- but that was the last time you spoke with her? A. That is correct. Q. What about Warren McShane? When did you last speak with him? A. June of 2011. Q. And what was the substance of that conversation? A. I said hello. Q. And was that at an event in person or was it by telephone? A. In person. Q. And where -- where were you? A. It -- we were in passing at the church's audiovisual production facility, Golden Era Productions. Q. So just a casual -A. Correct. Q. -- greeting. Okay. What about Angie Blankenship? When did you last speak with her? A. I would have to say that would be sometime in 2010, would be my guess. Q. Okay. A. Mid to late 2010, if I recall. It would have to be late -- probably late -- late 2010, maybe early 2011.
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I don't recall exactly. Some time ago, though. Q. And what was the circumstances of speaking with her in 2010? A. We spoke by phone. She called me as I was -you know, I can't remember what it was about. Q. Okay. A. I do remember it was by phone. Q. Did -- was Angie Blankenship in the Sea Organization? A. She was. Q. Do you know if she's still in the Sea Organization? A. I don't believe she is. Q. And do you know -A. But I -Q. -- where she is -A. -- don't know for sure. I'm sorry. Q. Do you know where she is today? A. I don't. Q. In the last year or so, while you were with the Church of Scientology International, who -- or what entity was Angie Blankenship working for? A. I don't know. I'd have -- I'd have to guess. I would guess Church of Scientology International. Q. Okay. And what -Page 23
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your deposition today? A. Met with my lawyer. Q. And did you review any documents? MR. WINGARD: Object and -- you can ask that question in a different way and I'll let him answer. But as phrased, it invades, I think -- well, you can ask that question. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, withdraw the objection. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you review -MR. WINGARD: If you answer -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I don't want to know -MR. WINGARD: -- just the question -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) -- and I'm not entitled to know what you've -- what you talked about with your lawyer, obviously. But I am entitled to know whether or not you reviewed any documents of any kind in preparation for your deposition. A. Yes. Q. And what did review? MR. WINGARD: And -- and you can ask -- if you ask that question in a different way, I think you can get an answer. It has to be a document that he reviewed immediately prior to taking the seat today that refreshed his recollection or else it invades the work product attorney-client privilege.
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A. As far as I know. I wouldn't have reason to believe otherwise. Q. What sort of job did she do? A. She was -- probably the simplest way to put it, she was a project manager for the opening of new Churches of Scientology. Q. So did -- I've read quite a bit from the Church of Scientology, including declarations and affidavits. And that is something -- the opening of these new Churches of Scientology is something that is associated with David Miscavige. Did she work directly with David Miscavige? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. MR. JEFFERSON: Join in the objection. Well, I don't have to. THE WITNESS: Does that mean I don't have to answer? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) No. MR. WINGARD: No. You can answer that -THE WITNESS: Oh. MR. WINGARD: -- if you can. A. Honestly, you'd have to ask her. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. I'll object to "honestly" as a sidebar. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What did you do to prepare for
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So I'll instruct him not to answer that question as phrased. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You have, I know, given a deposition once before in the Marc Headley and Claire Headley cases. I've got that here in front of me. Have you given any other deposition testimony in your life other than in those two cases? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Did you mean to say "those two cases"? A. Yes. I'm sorry, that confused me. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I thought they were two consolidated cases. MR. WINGARD: Okay. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And your deposition was given in both cases at the same time. MR. WINGARD: I didn't -- I wasn't aware of that. A. I gave one deposition. I thought -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Right. A. -- it was one case. If -- if you're saying it's two cases, then those are your words. Q. That -A. It was -- in my mind it was the Headley case and I did one deposition. Q. That's -- that works just fine.
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A. And that's the only deposition I've ever given. Q. Okay. Very good. Have you ever signed any declarations or affidavits at any time in connection with your work with any scientology entity? A. I don't recall. Q. Have you ever testified in court at any time? A. I have not. Q. So knowing that you were going to come and give a deposition, did you familiarize yourself, go on the Internet or anything like that, and familiarize yourself with the nature of this lawsuit of Monique Rathbun against various defendants? A. No. Q. And did you review your deposition from the Headley case? MR. WINGARD: I'll caution the witness and instruct him not to answer unless you reviewed it immediately prior to your testimony today and it refreshed your recollection. A. I did not review it immediately prior to my testimony today. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And did you review any other materials other than your deposition, which I just asked you about, to refresh your recollection in
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International? A. That is correct. Q. Would it surprise you that Allan Cartwright testified a couple of weeks ago that -- that you were merely a spokesperson that had done some work on behalf of Church of Scientology International? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Misstates testimony. MR. JEFFREY: You were sleeping at the time. You don't even remember. MR. STRIEBER: Objection to sidebar. MR. WINGARD: Object to the -MR. JEFFREY: Sustained. MR. WINGARD: -- question. Could you rephrase it? MR. JEFFREY: I think I got his answer. It's fine. MR. STRIEBER: It was probably a derivative question. A. You didn't get an answer from me. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Tell me your answer. MR. WINGARD: Well, can you -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I said "would it surprise you" and you shook your head and that sort of thing. But
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preparation for your deposition today? A. Prior to sitting down here today, no. Q. Take us through, briefly, your history working for the Celebrity Centre and for the Church of Scientology International. When did you start and what were your job positions? A. I first worked for the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre starting in January of 1991 as an executive assistant to the president of the Celebrity Centre at that time. Q. Who was? A. Karen Hollander. Q. Okay. A. I held that position for a number of years. I was then promoted to vice president a couple years later and eventually senior vice president, a position I held until January of 2007, at which point I began working for Church of Scientology International. And then I worked for the Church of Scientology International as the church's chief spokesperson and in public relations there until -essentially until June of 2011, which is when I requested a leave of absence. Q. So from sometime in '07 till June of '11, you were the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology
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would it surprise you that he did not acknowledge you as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology but were merely a -- someone that did speak at some time for the church? MR. STRIEBER: Counselor, you should confront him with that -- that transcript so he can comment on its accuracy rather than your paraphrasing of it. MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. The only point I was trying to make is that you said I gave an answer when I didn't give an answer. If I give an answer, it will come out of my mouth. If you're asking me about something somebody else said and you can show me what they said, either with a video or a transcript or otherwise, I'll be happy to review that and then answer your question. But otherwise, I have no comment on what you said and I don't even know what you're talking about. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. And my shaking my head was in response to the exchange between counsel at this table, not in response to the question, just so that the record is clear. Q. Now, you have been in the Church of Scientology pretty much since you were born. Isn't that fair? A. No. Most of my life, though.
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Q. I'm trying to be fair. Page 10 of your deposition: When did you first join the Church of Scientology? Answer: Pretty much since I was born. Has that changed since 2010? A. Well, to be more specific, when I was born, my mother was a Christian Scientist. My father was raised a Mormon. Q. Uh-huh. A. And I started calling myself a scientologist when I was about 16. I was raised with the tenets of it from about the age of 5 or 6 on because my mother and stepfather were and are both scientologists. Q. Okay. And who is your mother? A. Anne Archer. Q. She's a well-known actress. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. What does this have to do with the jurisdictional matters? I'm just -- I'm just trying to understand what the point of this questioning is. A. My mother -MR. JEFFREY: Are you instructing him -A. -- is Anne Archer. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And who is your father? A. Bill Davis.
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But wouldn't that normally have been in -- within your line of duty? A. Not necessarily. It depended on what else I was doing. Q. Do you know who was involved with the opening of that church in Dallas, Texas? A. I honestly don't recall specifically. Q. By the way, how was it that you came to move to Texas when you left the -- your active service with the Church of Scientology International? A. Well, I wasn't born here but I got here as fast as I could. Q. And what was your connection with Texas that -that made it a landing spot for you? A. Seemed like a nice place to live. Q. You -- other than that, you had literally no -no involvement with the state of Texas? A. I don't believe that's any of your concern. It's private. MR. WINGARD: I'll -A. It's private business. I don't know what it has to do with why I'm sitting here right now. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, you were the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International. You ended up in Austin, Texas. And I think it's a
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Q. And what does he do? A. Real estate. Q. Okay. And who's your stepfather? A. Terry Jastrow. Q. And what does he do? A. Sports and television production. He's also a screenwriter. Q. Okay. Go over, if you would, your duties as chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International. A. I was responsible for dealing with media inquiries, handling press matters, things like that. Q. Did you deal with media relations when it came to opening new Churches of Scientology? A. I did. Q. And did you speak at various church events? A. I did. Q. Tell me about your involvement with the opening of the Church of Scientology in Dallas, Texas. Were you involved? A. I was not. Q. Why was that? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I was doing something else, I guess. I don't remember, really.
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legitimate area of inquiry why you ended up in Austin, Texas. MR. WINGARD: I'll object that that's a private matter. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You may answer. A. Well, last time I checked, about a thousand people a day move to Texas and I think about 50 or a hundred of them a day move to Austin. So I -- I guess I just went with the flow. Q. So you had literally no connection with Texas, no family connection, no working connection with Texas before you came here? A. No. That's not true. Q. Okay. So what is true? A. That I do have connections in Texas. Q. And what is that? A. Personal connections. Q. Is it family? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Is that on your side or your wife's side? A. Both. Q. Over the years did you spend much time in Texas? A. Yes. Q. And did you ever perform any services for the
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Church of Scientology International or any other scientology entity while in Texas? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And let's talk about those. What's the earliest that you can recall? MR. STRIEBER: I'll object at this point in time and ask that the question be more specific as to scientology entity, whether he's performing services for CSI or some other entity that he has briefly stated he worked for. MR. JEFFREY: You can come back and ask any questions you want. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I -- I asked my question. Do you know what it was? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I would appreciate it if you would repeat it, actually. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. She'll read it back to you. THE REPORTER: Question: Okay. And let's talk about those. What's the earliest that you can recall? Do you need me to go back? THE WITNESS: Yeah. Would you mind,
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communications, direct or indirect, with David Miscavige? A. I did not. Q. Okay. I'll ask you some follow-up questions in a while. But I'm curious what your position is going to be on this. As you went about your job doing media relations and public relations for the Church of Scientology International, did you have direct or indirect communication with David Miscavige? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Very broad question. A. Yeah. Q. If you're going to give me a blanket no, then that's helpful to me in terms of knowing where to go. So -A. I got it. You'd -- you would have to be more specific. Q. Okay. Well, tell me, then, some times when you were working as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International that you would be directly communicating with David Miscavige. A. It would be on the rare occasion where I needed to inquire as to something that I was asked specifically by the press. So if the press had asked me something specifically about or having to do with Mr. Miscavige, then I would have to coordinate/verify that response.
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please? Thank you. THE REPORTER: The prior question was: And did you ever perform any services for the Church of Scientology International or any other scientology entity while in Texas? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. So I guess my specific answer to that would be I did perform services for the Church of Scientology International on one occasion in the state of Texas. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And what was that? A. I went to -- well, I guess technically you could say two occasions. The first occasion was I went to the new Church of Scientology in Dallas to meet with some parishioners because I was gathering information for the purposes of doing media tours through new -- what we refer to in scientology as ideal orgs, and Dallas was a new church that we had selected that we were possibly going to give some media tours of. Q. Uh-huh. A. So I was meeting with parishioners and staff that they might interview or talk to. Q. Uh-huh. A. And this was work I was doing on behalf of the Church of Scientology International. Q. And as you did that work did you have any
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Q. Uh-huh. A. So that would be an instance whereby I might have communication. Q. So give me an example. A. Well, a very well-documented example would be the St. Petersburg Times and their report in 2009. Q. Are we referring to what was called The Truth Rundown? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I honestly actually don't recall the name of the piece. But it was in 2009 that it was published and that was when I was working on it. I believe it was June. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And that was a report -I'll -- I'll clue you in. It was called The Truth Rundown. And it featured several former scientology Sea Org members who gave descriptions of -- well, first of all, tell us. What -- what were they -- what was the substance or the gist of their commentary about the Church of Scientology? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. MR. STRIEBER: Who -- I'm sorry. Who's "their" when you say "their gist"? MR. JEFFREY: The former scientologists, including Mr. Rathbun. MR. STRIEBER: I'll object. This is beyond
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the scope of discovery in this case. It has nothing to do with jurisdiction. It may have something to do with merit. MR. JEFFREY: Right. Overruled. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Now you may answer the question. MR. STRIEBER: I'll -- I'll ask counsel to instruct him not to answer the question. MR. WINGARD: I'll instruct you not to answer, in deference to the objection. MR. JEFFREY: You realize you may be back here giving this deposition again? MR. WINGARD: If you can explain what that has to do with the jurisdictional matters, maybe we'll reconsider. MR. JEFFREY: Have you read our pleadings? MR. WINGARD: I have read -MR. JEFFREY: It's very explicitly stated. MR. WINGARD: I've read your pleadings. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. WINGARD: So if it's -MR. JEFFREY: So -THE WITNESS: -- explicitly stated, could you state it for me again now -MR. JEFFREY: Yes.
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What were those allegations? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. Well, your -- your question was prefaced with a statement of something that you're saying that I did or who I am or what my job is. So then it's not really a question. You're kind of putting words in my mouth. So if you have a specific question about something that doesn't require me to regurgitate something that's already public record and has been regurgitated over and over and over again by many news outlets, then ask me that question. As far as retelling you what's already in the media, I don't see the value in that and I don't even think that's why I'm here. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So you're refusing to answer the question? A. Well, you have yet to ask me a question that I feel I'm capable of answering. So I'm not refusing to answer any question because I haven't been asked a question that I can answer. Q. As the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International in 2009, what was the substance or gist of the story that was carried in the media concerning David Miscavige, RTC, and the Church of Scientology International?
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MR. WINGARD: -- and remind me? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. WINGARD: Okay. MR. JEFFREY: It is our position that David Miscavige micromanages and is directly involved in all attacks on him by former members of the church. And I'm trying to get whether or not the media events that Mr. Davis spent weeks or months dealing with dealt with attacks concerning David Miscavige. I don't think that's too far afield. MR. STRIEBER: Ask him that question. A. Could you repeat the question? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What was the substance of the story in 2009 that you had to handle as the chief spokesman for the Church of Scientology International that was initially broken by the St. Pete Times? A. If I'm to understand your question, you're asking me to comment on a well-documented piece of media. And if that's the case, then if you want to produce it, I'll review it and I'll tell you what it said. Q. I just want to know what you know and what you did in your job. You were responding on behalf of the Church of Scientology International and any other involved entities and persons concerning certain allegations at the top of the Church of Scientology.
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. With all due respect, I spent many weeks dealing with many inquiries from a relatively large news organization on a very wide range of subjects. So I -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Let me see if I can help you. Did the news story that you had to respond to involve David Miscavige physically beating executives of the Church of Scientology International, the Celebrity Centre entity, whatever that's called, and RTC? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I'm not asking you to agree that that happened. I'm asking if that was what you were being asked about. A. I don't know. Maybe I'm a little thick, Mr. Jeffries [sic]. But I'm having an awfully hard time tracking with these sort of compound questions. Maybe you could make it a little simpler for me. Q. You can keep playing this game all day and we'll be back here taking this deposition again. What were you responding to as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology back in '09 concerning Mr. Rathbun, Amy Scobee, and others who had left the Church of Scientology? That is not a difficult question and you're not a dumb man. Okay?
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MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. And there is a problem with the question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Let's go. Give me an answer. MR. WINGARD: I think he already -THE WITNESS: I -MR. WINGARD: -- answered the question. THE WITNESS: I -- am I losing it? I'm not -- I don't understand what he's asking me. MR. WINGARD: Answer his question if you can. If you can't -A. I don't -MR. WINGARD: -- just tell him you can't answer. A. I don't know how to answer your question. I got a lot of questions from the St. Petersburg Times -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And I'm asking you -A. -- on a -- on a wide range of subjects. Q. Okay. Let -- let's -- let -- let me ask -A. I have yet to have you say to me something that specifically comports with questions I was asked. I had many -MR. WINGARD: All right. Let -A. -- allegations leveled -MR. WINGARD: Just let him finish.
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can talk about it. Beyond that, I'm not in a position to talk about it. Q. Well, we can do that. But I'll guarantee you you're not making any airplane reservations. You literally want me to go back and get every newspaper article, every television interview, and go over those with you and see if you can remember them? I asked you a simple question, Mr. Davis. MR. STRIEBER: He's -- he's answered it. MR. JEFFREY: No, he hasn't. MR. STRIEBER: He hasn't but -MR. JEFFREY: He's made a big speech. MR. STRIEBER: -- if you're going to get into specifics of newspaper articles, let him review the newspaper article and comment on it. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I asked you a simple question and I will ask the question again. As the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International in 2009, did you respond to media inquiries concerning allegations of, among other things, David Miscavige physically beating executives of the Church of Scientology International, RTC, and other church entities? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Asked and answered, beyond the scope of discovery.
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. You don't need to filibuster. MR. JEFFREY: Let's go back and would you read him the question about David Miscavige beating executives from various church entities? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And -- and just sit, please, and wait. THE REPORTER: Question: Okay. Let me see if I can help you. Did the news story that you had to respond to involve David Miscavige physically beating executives of the Church of Scientology International, the Celebrity Centre entity, whatever that's called, and RTC? A. Sir, there were allegations made by people. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And you responded to them? A. And those allegations were forwarded to me by the St. Petersburg Times. And because they were just allegations, they are always prefaced as allegations. And I responded to those, among many other questions. Q. Okay. A. I am not saying that what you just asked me is the case or otherwise. I'm saying I responded to allegations. If you're asking me about specifics of what I was asked and what ultimately appeared in print, as I said, we could pull it out, we could look at it, and we
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I'd ask counsel to instruct his witness not to answer the question. MR. WINGARD: I will instruct the witness not to answer the question. He did answer that. MR. STRIEBER: His answer's in there. MR. WINGARD: It's repetitive. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are you refusing to answer the question? MR. WINGARD: No. He's following my instruction. Under Rule -- no -MR. JEFFREY: He needs to say. MR. WINGARD: He's not refusing. He's -he's following my instruction. MR. JEFFREY: On the basis of his advice from counsel? MR. WINGARD: Because it's a repetitive, harassing question that's beyond the scope of discovery at this point. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did -- as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International in 2009, did you respond to allegations that David Miscavige had imprisoned, on the -- what's called the Gold Base in California, executives of the Church of Scientology International, RTC, and other church entities
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in something called the Hole? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I responded to many allegations, false allegations. MR. JEFFREY: Objection, unresponsive. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You need to answer my question. A. I responded to many false allegations. I don't recall specifically every single one that was made to me. Q. Okay. Well, we may shut down the deposition and go see the judge. MR. JEFFREY: So let's take a little break. I'll talk with my co-counsel. MR. STRIEBER: Ray, we're not going to -THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:09 -MR. STRIEBER: -- see any judge today. MR. JEFFREY: What? MR. STRIEBER: We're not going to see any judge today. There -- there's no setting, there's no motion, there's no notice. We're not seeing a judge today. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: There's questions that you can continue to ask him -MR. JEFFREY: I'm not going to waste my
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Q. And was there any type of a written agreement or policy concerning what the stipend was and -- and what it was for? A. I don't recall. Q. And -- and you -- you do or you do not recall whether -- whether or not you reported that stipend on your tax returns? A. I don't recall the specifics. I seem to remember vaguely FICA and different things like that on the paystub. Q. Okay. A. But I'd have to review it to actually give you something that would be fully accurate. Q. So when you received it in the form of a check, it was -- you did get some sort of a check with a paystub and then sometimes you received it in cash? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. That -THE WITNESS: It's okay. It's a simple question. A. Sometimes cash, sometimes check. I more specifically remember a paystub that would accompany the cash that would have to be signed, and it would have whatever -- the information relevant to the pay or withholding or whatnot would be part of that.
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time all day -MR. STRIEBER: That's the feeling I was getting. MR. JEFFERSON: We don't have an agreement to go off the record at this point. MR. JEFFREY: Well, y'all talk. Ask him some questions. MR. JEFFERSON: Okay. (Mr. Jeffrey exited the proceedings) MR. JEFFERSON: Okay. We're off the record. Any objection? MR. WINGARD: No, no objection. Off the record. MR. STRIEBER: Are we off down there? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Nods head.) (Recess) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:21 a.m. We're now on the record. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, we're back on the record. And I want to return to the stipend. You were a religious and are still a religious volunteer with the Church of Scientology in the Sea Organization. And you said that when you were on active duty you received a stipend. What was the stipend for? A. Spending money.
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But you don't know whether or not there's any specific church policy concerning those stipends or any written agreements concerning those stipends? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I honestly just don't recall. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you ever receive your stipend in Texas? A. No. Q. And how do you know that? A. Because I don't ever remember being paid in Texas. Q. Uh-huh. Now, this company that you work for, Colony Capital, you actually do services for them here in Texas. A. I have. Q. Yes. And as I understand it, you work from your home in Texas and then you also travel as needed for them. A. That is correct. Q. Is any Church of Scientology entity a client of Colony Capital? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. No. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Is any Church of Scientology
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entity in any way directly or indirectly involved with Colony Capital? A. No. Q. Do any other Sea Org members work for Colony Capital? A. No. Q. Does Colony Capital manage any investments that are in any way directly or indirectly connected to any Church of Scientology entity? A. Not that I'm aware of. Q. Does the Colony Capital firm have as any clients -- and I'm not going to ask you names. I'm not asking you for names. But let me -- just -- I'll just make that clear. But let me ask the question. Does Colony Capital have any clients who are members of the Church of Scientology? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I have no idea. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you do any of your marketing on behalf of Colony Capital to scientologists? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I -- I -- I have no idea whether -- what the religion is of people who come in contact with the marketing materials of the firm I work for. Do I specifically market to or am involved with or am
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MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you have -A. I don't recall specifically nondisparagement but certainly nondisclosure. And of course I'm bound by priest-penitent privilege in certain cases as well. Q. Other than you preparing a letter which was approved concerning your severance -- or leave of absence, I think we'll call it, from the Church of Scientology International, are there any other agreements or writings between you and the Church of Scientology International or any other scientology entity concerning your current status as being on a leave of absence? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I honestly don't know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you receive any type of a settlement or severance payment from any scientology entity upon your departure from the Church of Scientology International? A. I did not. Q. Do you receive any income today or over the last two years, let's say, from the Church of Scientology International or any other scientology entity? A. I do not. Q. And you have not? A. And I have not.
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approaching or am doing anything with scientologists, Church of Scientology, or Church of Scientology related entities -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Uh-huh. A. -- no. Q. Okay. Do you hold any state or federal licenses such as a Series 7 license? Do you know what that is? A. I do. Q. Do you have any -- any licenses? A. Excuse me. Let me break that down. I do know what that is. Q. Uh-huh. A. And no, I do not. Q. Okay. We've talked about the billion-year contract that you have in place as a Sea Org member. Are there any other written agreements that you have that are currently in effect with any Church of Scientology entity? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What agreement would that be? A. Various agreements that I signed during my period of working for the church. I can't recall what or which or how many or the specificity of them. But they would certainly involve confidentiality, for example. Q. Nondisparagement?
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Q. Over the years you've signed a variety of confidentiality agreements and things like that with the Church of Scientology. I -- I'm -- Church of Scientology International. I specifically now just want to zero in now, before I leave the topic -- upon your departure from active duty on the staff, did you sign any confidentiality agreements or any other agreements? A. I did not. Q. Okay. Before we broke I was asking you questions concerning times in which you would interface directly with David Miscavige. And you gave as an example dealing with the '09 press inquiries concerning the St. Pete Times and CNN and -- and I can't -- I can't think of what others but I know there were a variety. And so we had begun to talk about that. And I was asking you about what types of allegations you were having to respond to. And I specifically mentioned the allegations concerning two things. One, I asked you about allegations that David Miscavige physically beat executives of various scientology corporations, and also that he had imprisoned, in this compound referred to as the Hole, executives of various scientology entities. Will you acknowledge that both of those were the subject of inquiries from the press?
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Those allegations. MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. Well, there was about three parts of that. And I think the first part was telling me back something I already said. So if we're going to do that, we should probably just refer to the record. And I'd prefer to hear it from her rather than you. And I believe actually the reason we got down this road is that you asked me about interaction with Mr. Miscavige. And I think a better answer would be, for example, the opening of the Church of Scientology in Las Vegas, where media made requests to interview Mr. Miscavige and I relayed those requests regarding the opening of the church. And in some cases they were provided with a quote or tours of the church or otherwise. And that would be a good example of the kind of interaction that I would have with -- with Mr. Miscavige from my position as the spokesperson for the church. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And did David Miscavige give interviews to the press concerning the opening of the Las Vegas org? A. He did not. Q. When did he last give an interview to the press?
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A. If you're referring to something I've said before, I'd appreciate if you'd show it to me again. Q. What time is that flight? MR. STRIEBER: Ray -A. It's quite all right. MR. STRIEBER: -- there are other flights. Don't worry about it. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. I'm just concerned he might miss his flight. A. I appreciate your concern. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I'm just here to help. As you sit here today, Mr. Davis, do you recall how many hours you spent in interviews with the St. Pete Times concerning the media stories in 2009 about abuses at the highest levels of the Church of Scientology? MR. STRIEBER: Object -MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Allegations of. MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. Quite a few hours. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. This is going to take me a minute. MR. STRIEBER: Are you taking the time to establish the difference between 25 hours and just quite
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MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. The one that immediately comes to mind would have to be Ted Koppel and Nightline in the early '90s. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So in the early '90s -- and you were the chief spokesperson for the -A. Actually that's incorrect. Q. Okay. A. I think in the mid '90s he also did a profile for the St. Petersburg Times. Q. Was that on video or simply questions and answers in written form? A. My recollection is that was a purely print interview. Q. Okay. So his last on-air in-person interview was in the early '90s to Ted Koppel? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. So in the year 2009, you spent quite a bit of time responding to media inquiries concerning the series of media stories that came out about these former scientology staffmembers who made allegations concerning the Church of Scientology. Isn't that true? A. Yes. Q. I think you've said that, for example, when it came to the St. Pete Times, you spent about 25 hours in interviews with them. Is that true?
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a few hours, Ray? Is that what we're doing? MR. JEFFREY: I haven't passed the witness so I'll -MR. STRIEBER: Okay. MR. JEFFREY: I forgot they have these nifty things at the end. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. In your deposition, Mr. Davis, from the Headley case, on page 99 and 100, beginning at line 24 on 99, it said: What did she say to the St. Petersburg Times? And your answer was: We had 25 hours of meetings with the St. Petersburg Times. I'm sorry, you have to be a little more specific. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you spent 25 hours with the St. Pete Times? A. It does. Q. Okay. And so when you handled these inquiries, including spending 25 hours with the St. Pete Times, is it fair to say that you -- part of the allegations that you were responding to were allegations of beatings of various corporate executives of various scientology corporations by David Miscavige and imprisonment of various corporate executives of various corporate entities of scientology by -- at the direction of David
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Miscavige. Did you have to at least respond to those allegations, whether they be true or false? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. No, I never had to respond to something that was phrased the way you just phrased it. My recollection of my time with the St. Pete Times was having to detail for them the extensive cruelty, bullying, violence, and general mayhem which was conducted by your client. And I recall that very specifically and don't need any notes to remember those incidents. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So your memory -A. Beyond that -Q. -- is good on some things -A. -- I really don't -Q. -- and bad on others. A. -- have anything else to say. MR. WINGARD: Please let -- please let him finish -MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. WINGARD: -- his answer. A. And as far as I know, I'm here, as I understood, on a jurisdictional issue. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And this is -- we're getting there.
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pays taxes and is trying to make a living and get along in life. So if there's something that I can do to help you, I'm -- that's what I'm here to do. Beyond that, I'm really kind of confused now, for the time we've been sitting here, exactly what it is that -- where we're headed and why it is I'm having to talk about things that are just a matter of public record and why -Q. Okay. A. -- we're having to take all this time and all these gentlemen and all these people and the court reporter and the videographer and everybody for you to regurgitate things that anybody can just Google and read all about. Q. Okay. MR. WINGARD: Just let him ask a question. MR. JEFFREY: Objection, nonresponsive. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are you or are you not a member of the Sea Organization today? A. I am a member of the Sea Organization who is currently on a leave of absence and therefore I am a parishioner of my church. Q. And would you agree with Warren McShane's description -- sworn description of Sea Organization members, and that is that David Miscavige relies upon
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A. I am just a guy -MR. WINGARD: Please let him finish. A. -- who has a -- has a job. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Uh-huh. A. I don't work for the Church of Scientology. I don't answer to the Church of Scientology. I'm just a parishioner doing -- trying to get along in life. And at this point I'm kind of feeling harassed and frankly like I'm being treated as if I'm something I'm not. So -Q. Well -A. -- I wonder if we might actually just get to whatever it is that you need to know from me, which I still don't even understand as I sit here. Q. Let -- let's talk about that. You said you're just a parishioner. Is your sworn testimony that you're just a parishioner or you're also a member of the Sea Organization? A. I'm currently living my life as a parishioner. I am not a volunteer religious worker. I am not being paid by the Church of Scientology. I have no operational knowledge of its activities. I'm not a staffmember as I was for 20 years. Q. Okay. A. I'm a guy who lives in Texas, who has a job, who
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fully dedicated, thoroughly trained, and unflinchingly loyal scientologists to carry out the ecclesiastical functions of the religion, those being members of the Sea Organization? Do you think that's a fair description of the Sea Organization? MR. JEFFERSON: Object to the question. And if you're going to confront him with a statement from my client, I'd ask that you show him the statement. MR. WINGARD: In its full context. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) First of all, let me just ask you, Mr. Davis, are you able to answer the question? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I'd have to review what it is that you're asking me. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. And then you'd have to ask me the question again. Q. Would you agree that David Miscavige relies upon fully dedicated, thoroughly trained and unflinchingly loyal scientologists known as the Sea Organization? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I don't know how to answer that. It's so out of context and so specific and so narrow in view, I don't -I don't believe that I can answer that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are the members of the Sea
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Organization fully dedicated -MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) -- in your opinion? MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. I have worked with many very dedicated Sea Org members in my life. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But if you described the members of the Sea Organization, would you describe them, as a group, as being fully dedicated? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. In my personal opinion -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yes. A. -- people who dedicate their lives as religious workers their entire life, particularly to a religious order, much like a Jesuit or a Franciscan priest or a Mormon who goes on missionary for two years, would certainly qualify as a dedicated individual. Q. So is that a yes? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I believe I answered the question. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. I'm going to object to the nonresponsive portion. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, you do -- you're an intelligent man, aren't you? In spite of your things about "I'm just a taxpaying citizen" and all that, you're
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MR. WINGARD: I'll object. This is argumentative. It's harassing. We can move on. I'll instruct him not to answer that harassing question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you understand the difference between answering the question asked and volunteering a whole bunch of things that weren't asked? MR. WINGARD: Mr. Jeffrey, can you move along? That's argumentative. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are you refusing to answer that question? MR. WINGARD: I'm instructing him not to answer that argumentative question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. -MR. STRIEBER: It's kind of an irony here, isn't it? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis -MR. STRIEBER: The questioner is asking a lot of questions that have nothing to do with jurisdiction. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis -MR. STRIEBER: Irony noted. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) -- can we take it that if I ask you a simple straightforward question and you refuse to answer the question but you give me all kinds of information that I didn't ask you, that you're doing that
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a reasonably intelligent man, aren't you? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I guess. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And -- and you have a position of responsibility today with Colony Capital, don't you? A. I do. Q. And you had a very high-level position of responsibility with the Church of Scientology International, didn't you? A. I was a spokesperson. Q. That's -- that's -- you were the chief spokesperson for a worldwide organization, weren't you? A. I was the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, yes. Q. And -- and you are very savvy with dealing with the media. MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I guess. That would be a matter of opinion. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And -- and all I'm getting at is, you -- with all of this experience and wealth of knowledge, if I ask you if it's daytime or nighttime out and you tell me that it's December, you know the difference between answering the question and volunteering information that was not asked for, don't you?
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on purpose? MR. STRIEBER: Objection. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Can we -- can we take that as a given? MR. WINGARD: Objection. Can you move along, Mr. Jeffrey? MR. STRIEBER: Objection to sidebar. It's harassing. It's argumentative. Move on, Ray. Just -let's -- let's get to the jurisdictional issue. MR. WINGARD: I object under Rule 199.5(f) that that's an abusive question. It's harassing, it's repetitive, and it ought not to be answered. So I'm instructing him not to answer. MR. JEFFREY: Let's go back to the last question before he gave his long soliloquy. Sorry. (Reporter scrolls back) MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I'll ask the question again, Mr. Davis, and see if we can do a little better this time. MR. WINGARD: Object to sidebar. MR. JEFFREY: May I see it? THE REPORTER: Every time you talk, it's going to jump back. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, would you describe
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the members of the Church of Scientology -- Church of Scientology Sea Organization -- well, you're going to have a problem with that. Let me start over. Mr. Davis, would you describe the members of the Sea Organization in general as being a fully dedicated group of people? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Would you also describe them as being thoroughly trained? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. You mean in general again? MR. JEFFREY: Yes, in general. MR. WINGARD: If you can answer that. A. I guess. It would depend on their tenure and it would depend on their job. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Would you describe in general the members of the Sea Organization as being unflinchingly loyal? A. That is the general attitude of Sea Org members, yes. Q. And in fact, I remember from listening to your discussions with the St. Pete Times, I think you described them as the Sea Org members were tough sons of bitches. Do you remember ever making that statement? A. Again, if you're quoting something I've said
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that right? A. Correct. Q. And did she get back with you? A. Yes. Q. And what did she tell you? A. That I would be contacted by counsel. Q. So you didn't go out and shop around for a lawyer. You instead had a lawyer contact you that was retained by the Church of Scientology -MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) -- International? MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. No. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Clarify for me, please. A. I was given an option of an attorney and the referral came from counsel for the Church of Scientology. I then asked around various people I know here in Austin and in Texas and they agreed that that was a very good choice. And that is how I came to be represented by Mr. Wingard. Q. Good choice, by the way. Okay. So 2009 you spent a great deal of time responding to media inquiries concerning the story of the allegations made by former scientologists, including Mr. Rathbun. Is that correct?
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that you've seen, I'd rather see it than just take your word for it. Q. Well, you can answer my question. Do you remember ever saying that the members of the Sea Organization are tough sons of bitches? A. I don't specifically recall saying that. Q. Okay. A. But that is a viewpoint that I hold. Q. Okay. And you today are a member of the Sea Organization? MR. WINGARD: Objection, asked and answered. A. Again, I'm a Sea Org member currently on a leave of absence. Therefore, I am a parishioner. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But do you still consider yourself to be a member of the Sea Organization? MR. WINGARD: Objection, asked and answered. This is the third time. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Very good. Now, you called Linda Hamel when you were served with the subpoena to give your deposition in this case. Do you recall telling me about that? A. Yes. Q. And she said she would get back with you. Is
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A. Correct. Q. And those allegations included the issue of beatings by David Miscavige and imprisonment by David Miscavige. I know you don't agree with those, but that was included in the allegations. I don't know if we've ever established that you did have to respond to that. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So let me ask again. Did the media inquiries concerning allegations include allegations of David Miscavige beating executives of various church corporations and also having imprisoned executives of various church organizations? MR. WINGARD: Objection. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, asked and answered. MR. WINGARD: Asked and answered. A. You're referring specifically to St. Petersburg Times in 2009? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) To any of them. But we can start with the St. Pete Times. MR. WINGARD: I'll object to form. A. I think I already answered that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Just answer the question, sir. A. Again, the things you're asking me are a matter of public record. You can look them up.
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Q. But I don't have to go look them up. I have you here sworn in as a witness and I've asked you the question. Is there a reason why you're refusing to answer the question? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. He has not -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) It's a simple question. MR. WINGARD: He has asked -- you have asked the question now at least three or four times and he's answered. MR. JEFFREY: No, he has not. MR. WINGARD: He did. MR. JEFFREY: He has refused to answer this question. So I'm going to ask it one more time and -and -- and then I can move on. I've been waiting to move on for 30 minutes. MR. WINGARD: We've all been. MR. JEFFREY: He won't answer the question. MR. WINGARD: He did answer it. MR. JEFFREY: No, he didn't. MR. WINGARD: Yes, he did. He said -MR. JEFFREY: He gave a long diatribe about how Mr. Rathbun committed unspeakable crimes and things like that. I'm just asking a very simple question.
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Q. Did you witness my client beating or doing other physical bad things to other human beings? A. No. Q. Okay. So that's not anything you have any personal knowledge of, is it? A. No. Q. But you do, Mr. Davis, have personal knowledge as to whether or not you, as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, had to respond to allegations -- which you have told us are false -- but did you have to respond to allegations made by Mr. Rathbun and others concerning beatings and imprisonment by or at the direction of David Miscavige? Can you answer that question? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I had to respond to false allegations -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) To that effect? A. -- a number of which -- of which there were a number, among which included those which you just stated. Q. Okay. So now what I want to know is, in the course of responding to those allegations that were presented to you as the chief spokesperson, did you communicate directly with David Miscavige? MR. WINGARD: You talking about these media allegations in 2009?
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) As the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International responding to inquiries from the media in 2009 concerning Mr. Rathbun and other former scientology staffmembers -A. I remember the question. Q. -- did you have to respond to allegations concerning beatings and imprisonment by or at the direction of David Miscavige? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. Well, there's about three questions in the last couple of minutes that you've asked me; one of them was "is there a reason." And the reason is because I refuse to acknowledge the lies that keep coming out of your mouth in the form of a question. And the only thing I will acknowledge is that your client beat, choked, threw to the ground, kicked, and all other manner of physical abuse, people that are my friends and people that I've known for many years who have sworn to that fact and things which he himself has admitted. Those are the things that I know are facts. The rest of what you're saying, I'm not here to answer that and I don't see what that has to do with why I'm sitting here. And I really do feel quite harassed at this point.
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MR. JEFFREY: Correct. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And describe for me that. Did you report to him one time or did you talk to him many times throughout the day? How would you describe the level of your interactions with David Miscavige dealing with those accusations about him in 2009? A. I would ask that you rephrase the question just to make it more specific. And also if you would refrain from using the word "report" because I never reported to David Miscavige. I'm not -- and if -- if what -- in the context in which you're saying. Q. Okay. A. You'd have to define "report" if -Q. Very good. A. -- if I was going to use that term. Q. Very good. A. To me that infers some -- a commanding control line of which there was not one. Q. By the way, do you -- have -- have you ever at any time -- since you joined the Sea Organization in 1990 or 1991 to the present, have you ever taken any instructions or orders from David Miscavige? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. Instructions, yes.
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And are those -- how do you distinguish between an instruction and an order from David Miscavige? A. Well, I remember when we had the opening of the Church of Scientology in Las Vegas, he had some very helpful suggestions as far as my public presentation was concerned, my speech. And we discussed the order of the speakers, which side of the stage he would come up from, so that I knew, as the MC, where to look, things like that. Just sort of standard kind of stuff for public speaking at a public event. Q. Uh-huh. A. So that -- that would -- that -- that was always the highest level or most intensive level of interaction I ever had with him. Q. What about with regard to a -A. Sorry. Q. -- controversial -A. Before you ask that question -Q. Uh-huh. A. -- I actually just need to take a little bathroom break -Q. Great. A. -- if that's all right. Q. Let's do it.
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Helpful as ever. So let's -- let's start up. In 2009, when you were dealing with these allegations by Mr. Rathbun and others to the media of beatings and imprisonment by David Miscavige within the Church of Scientology, you had cited that as an example of when you interacted directly with David Miscavige. And I want to know about that interaction. First of all, did you -A. I'm sorry. I didn't cite what you just said as my interaction with -Q. That's -A. -- Mr. Miscavige. Q. -- how we first got on the whole 2009 thing, was I asked you for examples of when you dealt with him personally and one of them was in connection with the allegations in 2009. Are you saying that you never spoke with David Miscavige in 2009 concerning the allegations that he beat and imprisoned executives of scientology corporations? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. That's correct. I never spoke to him about that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And from reading your -Page 77
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A. Appreciate that. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:56. We're off the record. (Recess) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:16. We're now on the record. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, we're back on the record. Ray Jeffrey, continuing your questioning. And the subject that we're on, as I recall, is determining just the level of contact between you and David Miscavige in 2009 when you, as chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, were dealing with -- let's hold on. Let me start over. The subject that we're on now, Mr. Davis, is the -- the level of interpersonal contact between you and David Miscavige in 2009 when you were responding to media inquiries concerning alleged abuses by David Miscavige within the Church of Scientology. And then -- I'm going to ask you some questions about that and then I'm going to move on to, when you came to Texas in 2010, your level of contact with Mr. Miscavige. I'm trying to get a feel for how much y'all interacted. Okay? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I heard everything you said.
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A. And all -- and just to be clear -- and we can review the record if necessary. All I said was -Q. Well, I don't -A. -- I gave -Q. -- need a speech, sir. This is -A. -- the St. Petersburg Times -Q. This is unresponsive. A. No. To the degree that you're putting words in my mouth -Q. I've not put any -A. I believe I have the right -Q. -- words in your mouth. MR. STRIEBER: Ray, he's trying to clarify an answer. MR. JEFFREY: Oh, come on. MR. STRIEBER: Let him answer it -MR. JEFFREY: Come on. MR. STRIEBER: -- and object to responsiveness. Do not interrupt his question [sic]. MR. JEFFREY: This is one of the most obstructive witnesses I have ever encountered. So no, I'm not going to let him run roughshod over the deposition. A. That's okay. I'll -MR. JEFFREY: Make your -- make your -20 (Pages 74 to 77)
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A. -- I'll take that as a compliment. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Oh, I'm sure you would -A. And in September -Q. -- take that, as an unflinchingly loyal scientologist. A. -- in dealing with -Q. But continue. A. -- the St. Petersburg Times in 2009 -Q. Uh-huh. A. -- I gave that as an example -Q. Okay. A. -- of the type of thing where I might have interaction. Q. Okay. So -A. I did not phrase it in the way you did. Q. Okay. Well, very good. What interaction did you have with David Miscavige when you were dealing with the allegations inquired about by the St. Pete Times and other media, if there was any other media? MR. WINGARD: And I'm just going to caution the witness to the extent that this might invade the attorney-client privilege, that you don't do that. A. Specifically with him, I don't recall on that particular media piece or all the media pieces at that
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investigation as the spokesperson in order to respond to the media inquiries. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And you actually investigated whether or not there had been instances of violence and imprisonment by David Miscavige at the Church of Scientology -- let's call it the Gold Base out in -- near Hemet, California. You investigated that, didn't you? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you investigate whether or not David Miscavige beat and imprisoned church executives from various church entities at the Gold Base near Hemet, California? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. Together with counsel I interviewed church staffmembers as part of the investigation you're referring to. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And who was the church counsel? A. Monique Yingling and Bill Walsh. Q. And Monique Yingling is David Miscavige's personal attorney, isn't she? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I have no awareness of that being the case.
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time. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you have conversations with David Miscavige back in 2009 concerning the media firestorm, if you want to call it that, about these allegations by Mr. Rathbun and others against David Miscavige? A. Yes. Q. And what -- did you receive any instructions from him? A. No. Q. Did you report to him on what was going on? A. No. Q. So what were the communications? MR. WINGARD: Objection. To the extent that that would require you to reveal attorney-client communications or attorney work product information, that you don't do that. A. General at best. I don't recall specifically. I -- I do remember one conversation where we spoke in passing and I mentioned that I was going to be doing some interviews. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Interviews with the media or interviews of scientologists concerning the allegations? A. The media. Q. You -- you have reported that you did an
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And did you interview David Miscavige concerning the allegations that he had beat and imprisoned executives from the Church of Scientology International and RTC and other church corporations? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. And to the extent that interview was conducted in the presence of CSI counsel, I would ask -- I would caution the witness not to disclose any privileged communications. MR. WINGARD: Yeah. And the way the question is phrased, I don't know how he could answer it yes or no without disclosing the contents of the communication. I think you can ask that question without requiring him to disclose the contents or subject matter of the communication. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) First of all, was there any interview you ever did of David Miscavige concerning the allegations against him beating and imprisoning church executives? A. No. Q. So whether there was an attorney there or not is irrelevant, correct, because it never happened? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Is that true? MR. WINGARD: Calls for a legal conclusion
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but I think you've made the point. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) The interview never happened? A. I believe I already answered the question. Q. Okay. That there was no interview? A. Correct. I did not. Q. What kind of investigation is it that you do concerning the allegations against an individual committing violence and imprisonment of others and you never interview the subject of the investigation? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I -- I don't know how to answer that. Could you -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Would you call that -A. -- maybe make it -Q. -- a thorough investigation? A. -- multiple choice? Q. Uh-huh. A. Like -- you said what kind of investigations. Q. Yeah. Would you call that a thorough investigation of the issue of whether or not David Miscavige beat and imprisoned executives of the Church of Scientology International and other scientology corporations without ever interviewing David Miscavige? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form.
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A. I think she could read back to you your answer to that question -- or my answer to that question that you've already asked me. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Would you read back the question? THE REPORTER: Re-read the question I just read? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. STRIEBER: I think he suggested -MR. JEFFREY: No, the one that I -MR. STRIEBER: -- reading back the -MR. JEFFREY: -- I just asked. MR. STRIEBER: I think he suggested reading back the answer. THE REPORTER: Question: Okay. And although it did not include actually interviewing the person against whom the allegations had been made? A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And as I understand the results of your investigation, it was that the alleged whistle-blowers who reported violence by David Miscavige at the highest levels of the Church of Scientology, of executives of the Church of Scientology International and other scientology corporations, that the alleged whistle-blowers were the only individuals who had ever
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A. I think you're asking me my opinion. Are you asking me my opinion? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I'm asking you to answer the question, sir. A. Then maybe you could repeat it because I still don't get what you're getting at. MR. JEFFREY: Will you read it back? THE REPORTER: Question: Would you call that a thorough investigation of the issue of whether or not David Miscavige beat and imprisoned executives of the Church of Scientology International and other scientology corporations without ever interviewing David Miscavige? A. I felt the investigation I did was very thorough. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And although it did not include actually interviewing the person against whom the allegations had been made? MR. WINGARD: Objection to form. We've gone over this several times. MR. JEFFREY: It's called cross-examination. MR. WINGARD: It's -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Would you answer the question? MR. WINGARD: It's called repetitive questions.
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committed violence at those levels of the Church of Scientology. Is that roughly what your conclusion was? MR. WINGARD: Object -MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I'm sorry. You'd have to name what it is specifically you're referring to as in who are the whistle-blowers, who are the alleged victims, et cetera et cetera, et cetera. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, you spent months on this. You don't recall who the folks were who gave media interviews on television and on the Internet and in print? And did you or did you not conclude that they were the ones that had perpetrated violence and were the only ones who had? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. Sir, I think you would agree that for me to answer a question where all you say is "they" and you don't define who "they" is or you use an internal term like whistle-blowers and you don't tell me who the whistle-blowers are, I could not truthfully answer the question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You know who the alleged whistle-blowers are, don't you? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You spent months on this.
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MR. WINGARD: Could you just clarify who you mean by these people, by this alleged whistle-blower group? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. I'll clarify it. Who were they? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Can you -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis? MR. WINGARD: Can you define what you mean by "whistle-blower"? MR. JEFFREY: I said alleged whistle-blowers. The folks who went on media internationally and reported that David Miscavige was beating and imprisoning executives of the Church of Scientology International and other scientology corporations. Those alleged whistle-blowers. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I recall one of them was your client. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And that's the only one you recall, as you sit here under oath today? A. There were others I recall. Mike Rinder, Tom De Vocht. Q. All former high-level executives with different scientology corporations? A. All of them were former Sea Org members.
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A. I believe so. I've heard that. Q. Tom De Vocht. What was his position? A. I don't recall specifically. He worked in construction. Q. Okay. And I -- I don't know why this is so arduous. Did your investigation conclude that those individuals, the alleged whistle-blowers, were actually the only ones who were committing violence within the Church of Scientology? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Is that a fair summary of your investigation? MR. WINGARD: Same objection. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) The conclusion? A. I concluded that Marty Rathbun, Tom De Vocht, and Mike Rinder did perpetrate violence -Q. And did -A. -- against other scientology Sea Org members. Q. And did David Miscavige commit violence against other scientology members? A. I did not find anyone who could state that that had ever occurred. Q. Okay. Did you ask anyone if that occurred? MR. WINGARD: And -- and this is where -A. The investigation that I conducted was in the
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Q. Okay. And former high-level executives with various scientology corporations. Correct? A. All of them were former Sea Org members. Q. Are you just going to refuse to answer the question? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I am answer the questioning. They're former Sea Org members. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And so by -- by definition, they are top executives of scientology corporations? A. I -- I can't sit here and opine as to their positions, when they left or at whatever point. You're not specifying a time period. So I can -Q. I said former, so that would mean -A. -- simply say that -Q. -- at many time, Mr. Davis. A. -- they're former Sea Org members. Q. Okay. Mike Rinder was at one time the head of OSA, wasn't he? A. Correct. Q. And that deals with -- you worked for his successor. Correct? Linda Hamel? A. Correct. Q. Marty Rathbun was the inspector general of RTC. Correct?
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presence of counsel. So as far as anything else, it's public record and it would be too difficult to discern between the public record and what was privileged. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But as we leave here today and we -- the judge, as he makes these decisions in this case, and possibly a jury some day, as we leave your testimony, I want to be clear that when it came to this media activity back in 2009 concerning Mr. Rathbun and others and their allegations against David Miscavige, that you had no communications with David Miscavige that you can even recount for us here today, that you can remember? A. I guess I -- the -- the problem I'm having -and I'm -- honestly, really, I'm not trying to be obstinate. I -- I have a difficult time with the compound questions. So maybe just for the purposes of whatever the specific answer is you're trying to get, if you could ask me a simple question, I'll give you a simple answer. But when it has such a lengthy preface, I tend to sort of lose the plot. So maybe if you could come at me again. MR. JEFFREY: Will you read back the question, please? THE REPORTER: Question: But as we leave here today and we -- the judge, as he makes these
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decisions in this case, and possibly a jury some day, as we leave your testimony, I want to be clear that when it came to this media activity back in 2009 concerning Mr. Rathbun and others and their allegations against David Miscavige, that you had no communications with David Miscavige that you can even recount for us here today, that you can remember? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I don't recall specifically having any conversations with Mr. Miscavige on a matter such as this. I never felt the need to because not then, not now, and I seriously doubt ever in the future have I ever encountered a single person who was in any way, shape, or form involved in the kind of allegations that were made against Mr. Miscavige, not -- I couldn't find anybody who could verify what was being leveled against him because -- and therefore I concluded that the allegations being made against him were not true. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Wow. I may print that one up and frame it and put it on my wall. I'm asking you, Mr. Davis, can you recall a single communication with David Miscavige about the allegations against him in 2009 by Mr. Rathbun and others? MR. WINGARD: What part of his answer did
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A. If you -- if you say so. Q. And that book reprints extensive text messages back and forth between David Miscavige, or his communicator on his behalf, and you and Mr. Rinder. Have you read any of those? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. No. I don't read books that people write about me or my religion. I don't need to read what somebody says about what I already know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Have you ever seen those text messages since that time? A. I -- I don't even know what text messages you're referring to. Q. When you and Mr. Rinder were assigned by David -- first of all, were you assigned by David Miscavige to cover and deal with John Sweeney of the BBC? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. No. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But you did deal with John Sweeney of the BBC in Los Angeles, in London, and elsewhere, didn't you? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Only in Los Angeles. Well, in -- not in London, I should say. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What about in Clearwater?
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you think was nonresponsive? THE WITNESS: It's okay. A. No, I cannot. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Thank you. A. You're welcome. Q. Okay. Have you seen the John Sweeney book, the book by the BBC reporter that you've had some colorful encounters with? A. I don't know what book that is. Is it -- does it have a title? Q. It's something like The Church of Fear. A. No, I am -- I'm not familiar with it. Q. Never even heard of that book? A. I vaguely recall hearing something about him publishing something, but I've never seen it. Q. And you know you're under oath here today? A. Yeah, sure. Q. Okay. And you know that a lot of that book discusses his encounters with you as the international spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, don't you? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I -- I guess. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yeah.
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A. Yeah. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Q. Clearwater, Florida. A. I was objecting to London. I didn't -Q. Yeah, got you. A. -- go to London. I had the flu. Q. And were you in continuous or virtually continuous contact with David Miscavige during that handling of John Sweeney of the BBC? A. No. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What -THE WITNESS: Sorry. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Does David Miscavige have someone who is his personal assistant and referred to as his communicator? A. Yes. Q. And who is his communicator? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I don't know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Who was his communicator when last you knew? A. Laurisse Stuckenbrock. Q. And I believe now she goes by Laurisse
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Henley-Smith. Have you ever heard that name? A. I've -- I mean, I've heard the name Henley-Smith but I've -Q. Okay. A. -- not heard it in the context of Laurisse Henley-Smith. Q. We'll just call her Laurisse, then. What -- what does the communicator for David Miscavige do? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. You'd have to ask her. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, did you receive communications from David Miscavige's communicator during your service as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International? A. Not that I can specifically recall, no. Q. Okay. And these text messages reprinted in John Sweeney's book, I guess your -- your testimony would be that they have to be made up or false because you never received text messages from David Miscavige or his communicator micromanaging your handling of John Sweeney? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: I'm going to object to that question. MR. STRIEBER: Do you have those alleged
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Q. Telling you -A. I already said the book -Q. -- in exquisite detail how to deal with John Sweeney and what was going with John Sweeney. Did you have such text-message traffic with David Miscavige or his communicator on his behalf? A. No. Q. Okay. So by definition, they would have to be false if there are any such text messages floating around out there? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Mr. Jeffries [sic], if you say so. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, then we can wrap this deposition up real quick if you'll just go with whatever I say. So you -- you would agree with that, wouldn't you? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: If we could quit the deposition right now, I bet he will. A. I would agree -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. -- that if someone is saying that text messages as you describe exist -Q. Yes.
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text messages that are in the book to confront the witness with? MR. WINGARD: And you've mischaracterized his testimony. I think that would make any answer he gives misleading. So on that basis I'm going to instruct him not to answer. He said he couldn't recall, and you're making it -- you're making it sound as if he's asserting it never happened. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But were -- were there times where you would be on an assignment as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International and you would be receiving regular repeated text messages from David Miscavige or his communicator on his behalf? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. No. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So if there are text messages out there that -- that we can refer to that purport to be between David Miscavige's communicator and you and Mike Rinder in dealing with John Sweeney, those would have to be false, wouldn't they? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I'm sorry. I can't answer. You're asking me to speculate and I don't even know what text messages you're talking about.
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A. I have no idea what their source would be or how they came about because I never received them nor did I ever write them. Q. By the way, did you have text-message-capable cellar devices or -- back in -- in 2009, 2010? A. Sure. Of course, yeah. Q. And -A. I had BlackBerry. Q. You had BlackBerry. They're commonly used at the higher levels of the scientology corporations, aren't they? BlackBerrys? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) If you don't know, that's fine. A. I don't know. Q. Okay. That's good. We don't need a big drawn-out thing. So capable of sending and receiving text messages, of course, the BlackBerry? A. Most devices intended to do that are. Q. Yes. And the BlackBerry is one. A. Correct. Q. And was that BlackBerry issued by the Church of Scientology or do you have that BlackBerry today? How
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would you describe the -- that -- that particular BlackBerry? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Which particular BlackBerry? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) The one that you used back in 2009, 2010. Would that be issued to you by the Church of Scientology? A. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Q. And who would pay the bill on that? Church of Scientology or some entity? A. CSI. Q. Okay. Very good. And the -- they would have the ability to obtain the actual text messages back and forth between you and David Miscavige or his communicator, wouldn't they? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. Well, no. Because we already established that those don't exist. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. You can't obtain -Q. Got you. A. -- something that doesn't exist. Q. Got you.
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Christi, Texas in 2010, didn't you? A. I did. Q. Okay. And specifically that trip related to a man named John Brousseau, who's also sometimes referred to as JB. Correct? A. That is correct. Q. Okay. And as I understand, just was -- to try to speed things up, from reading your deposition before, you were informed by your boss, Linda Hamel, the head of OSA, that -- that John Brousseau had left his post at RTC and had headed down and was believed to be in Corpus Christi, Texas seeing Mr. Rathbun. A. She told me that he was in that area. Q. Okay. A. And I knew that that was an area in which Mr. Rathbun was. Q. Right. And you got on a plane and flew with some others down to Corpus Christi, Texas to communicate with Mr. Brousseau. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And how did you fly? Did you fly on private jet or did you fly commercial? What was it? A. Private. Q. I think you got in at the wee hours of the morning. And I know Corpus Christi well enough that I
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But -- but text messages that do exist, they could be obtained by the owner of the devices. Correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. We can take a break and call AT&T. I -- I have no idea. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. I just thought that as the chief spokesperson for a multinational multibillion dollar organization, you might be -- have that level of savvy that I don't have. Okay. Let's shift to 2010. Okay? A. (Nods head.) Q. And the -- were you, in 2010, still responding to media inquiries concerning Mr. Rathbun and the other former Sea Org members who were alleging things against David Miscavige? Or was that pretty much done? A. If -- if memory serves, I think that was pretty much done. That was pretty much behind us at that point. Q. In -- I'll represent to you, if you don't recall, that Mr. and Mrs. Rathbun lived in a tiny little town on the Texas coast called Ingleside on the Bay near Corpus Christi. Do you know if that -- does that sound about right to you or do you recall? A. I recall hearing that, yes. Q. Okay. And you took a trip down to Corpus
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think their earliest plane gets in there about 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning. You got in long before 7:30 in the morning, didn't you? A. I don't recall. But I do remember it was dark. Q. Yeah. And in fact, you had an encounter with Mr. Brousseau at the motel where he was staying at about 5:30 in the morning. Does that sound right to you? Just roughly. A. Yeah, that sounds about right. Q. And who was with you? Angie Blankenship? A. Angie Blankenship, Bob Wright and Laurence -Laurence Stumbke and myself saw -- saw JB. Q. And Angie Blankenship, what scientology corporation did she work? A. Church of Scientology International. Q. And Laurence -- I can't remember the last name. A. Stumbke. Q. Stumbke. That's a woman. Correct? A. Correct, yes. Q. And what organization did she work for? A. Church of Scientology International. Q. And who was the other? A. Bob Wright. Q. And who did Bob Wright work for? A. Church of Scientology International.
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Q. And at that time you were assigned to and working for OSA, the Office of Special Affairs. Correct? A. Yeah. That was the portion of the Church of Scientology International in which I worked. Q. That's the portion that deals with investigations, legal matters, and public relations. Correct? A. I worked in public relations within the Office -Q. But that's -A. -- of Special Affairs. Q. -- what OSA does? A. It's responsible for external affairs for the Church of Scientology International. Q. Which includes legal affairs, investigations, and public relations? A. Sure. Q. Okay. And so did -- did you -- I realize you -you may have some means. But did you charter a private jet to fly from Los Angeles down to Corpus Christi, Texas? A. I -- I -- I mean, I chartered it. I didn't pay for it. Q. That's a -A. I'm sorry. I -Page 103
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I'm not familiar with what you're referring to, no. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. At any rate, if he said that, that would not be correct? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. Sorry. You lost me. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) If he said that he sent you and others down to Texas to confront or to see John Brousseau, that would be incorrect? A. I went to Texas because I wanted to go to Texas. Q. Right. A. And the people that went with me went because I asked them. And I informed Linda that I wanted to do that and she didn't have a problem with that so I went. Q. And the church didn't have a problem with chartering a private jet to fly you down there? A. No. Q. Okay. And were you -- were you off during that time or were you -- were you still receiving your -- your generous stipend from the church? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: It's arduous because of some
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Q. -- good distinction there. Who paid for you to fly on a private jet down to Corpus Christi, Texas to see John Brousseau? A. CSI. Q. And -- and so there was you and three other individuals, correct, on that jet? A. Correct. Q. No one else? A. No. No one else that I can recall right now, no. Q. And had you had any communication -A. I mean obviously the pilots. Q. Sure. A. I -Q. For all I know -A. I'm not -Q. -- you're a crack pilot. A. I'm not qualified in jet aviation. Q. Okay. And had you spoken with Warren McShane before heading down to Texas? A. No, I did not. Q. Have you ever seen the Riverside County sheriff's report where he said that he sent staff down to Texas? MR. WINGARD: Object to form.
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of the verbiage you use. You were worried about the deposition being arduous. A. I -- I get -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Were you -A. -- I don't remember -Q. -- off the clock -A. I don't remember when I picked up my last paycheck or -Q. Okay. A. -- or when I had picked up my one before then. But if -Q. By the way, how -A. -- the question is was I working as a staffmember of the Church of Scientology International when I went to Texas, the answer is yes. Q. Okay. And -- now, there were other folks that were down there that were Sea Org members who did not fly down with you, correct, on this trip? A. Not -- not that I'm aware of, no. Q. Well, you're not aware that there were other scientologists in Texas, for example, that went to -- to Mark Rathbun's home at the same time -A. Yes. Q. -- you -A. Yes, yes, yes.
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Q. Okay. You were aware of that? A. Well, you said -- I'm sorry. Maybe you misspoke. You said Sea Org members. Q. Okay. A. I wasn't aware of other Sea Org members. I was -- I was aware of other scientologists. Q. Well, you know who Michael Doven [DOVE-EN] or Doven [DOE-VEN] is, don't you? A. Uh-huh. Yeah, sure. Q. How do you pronounce his name? A. Doven [DOE-VEN]. Q. Okay. You know who Michael Doven is and -A. I do. Q. And who is he? A. He's a friend of mine, a scientologist, a parishioner. Q. And what does he do? A. He works in the film business. Q. And was the personal assistant to Tom Cruise? A. No. Q. Never? A. Oh -- oh, he was. But I don't -- he hasn't held that position since the early 2000s. Q. Okay. And is he a scientologist? A. To my knowledge, yes.
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A. I did. Q. And by the way, your job when you were with Celebrity Centre involved quite a bit of interfacing with celebrities. Isn't that true? MR. WINGARD: Objection. Can you help me understand where this relates to the jurisdictional issues? MR. JEFFREY: We're in Texas and I'm exploring his involvement and I'm going to get on to some additional things. But this is preparatory. MR. WINGARD: Well, but you're asking him about what his work was in Los Angeles years earlier. I'm just trying to figure out how that has anything to do with whether you have jurisdiction over the RTC or Mr. Miscavige, what his job was in the early 2000s in LA at the Celebrity Centre. Can you help me out? MR. JEFFREY: All he had to do was give me a yes or no and we'd be done and -MR. WINGARD: I didn't know that. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. WINGARD: So can you help me out? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You knew these celebrity scientologists in part because of your position with the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre where you interacted with celebrities on behalf of the Church of
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Q. Sea Org member? A. No. Q. And was Michael Doven in -- down in Corpus Christi or Ingleside on the Bay where Mr. Rathbun's home is when you went down there to see John Brousseau? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Michael Doven was in that area the same day that I was. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) What about Michael Roberts? Was he down there on that trip? A. Yes, he was. Q. And who is he? A. He's a scientologist. Q. And what does he do aside from being a member of the Church of Scientology? A. Currently I don't know. He's most known as an actor. Q. Sure. And was he an IAS registrar at any time? A. I don't know. Q. And did you speak to Michael Doven while you were down there? A. I did. Q. In person or by phone? A. In person. Q. And did you speak to Michael Roberts?
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Scientology. Isn't that true? A. I first met Michael Doven and Michael Roberts when I was working at the Church of Scientology Celebrity Centre -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. -- International. Q. That's fine. What about Jan Eastgate? Was Jan Eastgate down there in Corpus Christi? A. Yes. Q. And who is Jan Eastgate? A. Jan Eastgate is -- well, at that time -- I -- I don't know what she does now. I have no reason to believe she doesn't still do it, but at that time was the president of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights. Q. Which is another scientology corporation. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I don't believe it would be characterized as that. It's an independent nonprofit 501(c)(3) charitable organization, human rights organization. It's certainly affiliated with and connected to the Church of Scientology. But I -- I don't know if it would legally be characterized as -- as you have. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. There is really no
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entity called the Church of Scientology, is there? I think you clarified for that -- that for me at the beginning of the deposition. Is that fair? A. Not in a legal or corporate sense, no -Q. Okay. And -A. -- that I'm aware of. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) But there are a variety of corporations, I believe all of them nonprofit, that are associated with the activities of scientology. There's the Church of Scientology International. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Religious Technology Center. Correct? A. Uh-huh. Q. IAS. What's that? A. The International Association of Scientologists. Q. And that's another? MR. STRIEBER: Another what? A. It's an entity, yeah. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Another entity associated with the Church of Scientology. A. Sure. Q. Okay. And so I'm not sure why it became difficult.
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A. I don't recall. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Was Marla Filidei, F-i-l-i-d-e-i, down in Corpus Christi at that time? A. She was. Q. And who is she? A. She is an executive at the Citizens Commission on Human Rights. Q. Okay. Michael Duff. Was he down there? A. I believe so. Q. And who is he? A. A scientologist. Q. And what does he do? A. He's a musician. Q. Okay. And Denise Duff? Was she down there? A. I can't recall. I can't recall if she was or not. Q. I guess related to Michael Duff? A. Yeah. She's his wife. Q. Wife? And she's an actress? A. She is. Q. And a scientologist, I guess? A. Yes. Q. And what other scientologists or scientology staffmembers were down in Corpus Christi on that trip to
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CCHR, Citizens Commission on Human Rights, is a nonprofit organization associated with the Church of Scientology. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And it's staffed by Sea Org members. Correct? A. Incorrect. Q. Okay. Are there no Sea Org members at CCHR? A. There are not. Q. Okay. Why is that? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Because it's not a Church of Scientology. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So Jan Eastgate was down there in Corpus Christi at the same time. And how did the -- all these folks, by the way, get down there? Did they fly on a different private jet? A. Yes. Q. And Chris Smith. Was Chris Smith down there? A. Yes. Wait. Sorry, sorry. Rewind. They flew down separately. How they flew down, I'm -- I don't know. They got themselves down there. Q. Okay. A. I don't -- I don't recall how they got there. Q. And who -- whether they flew on private jet or commercial, who paid their way down there, so to speak? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form.
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see John Brousseau? A. You've -- you've named the ones that I can recall. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'll have to change the disc in about five minutes. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you -- all of these people that I've asked you about on this visit to Corpus Christi, Texas to see John Brousseau, did you meet with all of them? In other words, did you see them face-to-face? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did any of them catch a ride with you back in the private jet back to Los Angeles when you were done or was it the same four of you, plus pilot? A. I don't recall specifically who. But I do recall some of them did come back with me, yes. Q. As you went down to Corpus Christi and you engaged with John Brousseau, who had left the Church of Scientology's Religious Technology Center, did you have any communications back to California? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) With whom? A. Linda -29 (Pages 110 to 113)
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Q. And -A. -- Hamel. Q. -- so Linda Hamel, the head of OSA, you were communicating with her. On a regular basis or just maybe once or twice while you were down there? A. A couple of times. Not -- not intensively. Q. And did you receive any communications from David Miscavige or his personal communicator, Laurence -no -- Laurisse Stuckenbrock or Henley-Smith? A. No. Q. And by that, I -- when I talk about communications, either telephone calls or -- or text messages or any other form of communication. Did you have any with David Miscavige or his communicator? A. No, none. No forms of communication. Q. Who is Neil O'Reilly? A. Neil O'Reilly is a Sea Org member who -- well, when I was there, a Sea Org member who worked in the Office of Special Affairs of the Church of Scientology International. Q. And you -- you did public relations. That's one part of OSA. And Allan Cartwright's over there on the legal side doing legal affairs. Correct? A. Uh-huh. Q. What types of activities was Neil O'Reilly
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A. Well, in -- in the context of when you started these questions, no. Q. Okay. A. I did have interaction with him. Q. Okay. And so what was your understanding of the kind of things that Neil O'Reilly is responsible for? A. My personal experience with him was -- was related to some of the attacks that were being perpetrated against the church online and through various groups on the Internet that were attacking the church and the -- and I would have to get information from him as related to media pieces about those attacks and allegations that were made relative to those attacks. Q. As the spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International who had to deal with people attacking the church, let me ask you this question. If you had an individual publicly accusing David Miscavige of abuses such as beatings and imprisonment but not making any criticism whatsoever about scientology as a religion or the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard or anything else about scientology, would you call that person attacking the church? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. I don't know what I would call that because I've
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involved with? A. I don't know. I didn't work in that area. Q. You were the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International and you didn't -- don't know what the other members of the Office of Special Affairs did? A. There were some members that didn't have duties specifically related to my job, so I was unaware of it. Q. Isn't it Hubbard doctrine that anyone involved with PR for the church must be informed? A. Yes. Q. Okay. But you were not informed of what someone with as long a tenure as Neil O'Reilly did in the Office of Special Affairs. Why was that? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Can you specify a time? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) While you were chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International. MR. WINGARD: So at any time during those -MR. JEFFREY: Yes. MR. WINGARD: -- years? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You -- did you ever see him? A. Yeah. Q. But you had no idea what that man did up there?
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never experienced that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Well, Mr. Rathbun and Tom De Vocht and Mike Rinder back in '09, when you were dealing with the media firestorm over their allegations about David Miscavige, were they attacking L. Ron Hubbard or the teachings of the Church of Scientology? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Yes. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Tell me what -- what -how they were attacking L. Ron Hubbard or the teachings of the Church of Scientology. A. Well, there were specific things stated in Internet blogs and other places that were critical of Mr. Hubbard's policies and the writings of Mr. Hubbard. Q. Okay. But I'm talking about -A. In addition to the fact that their behavior was in direct contradiction of the policies laid out for the Church of Scientology by Mr. Hubbard. Q. So -- but I'm referring now not to something on some blog somewhere but I'm talking about in 2009 when you were responding as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International about the allegations in the media by Mr. Rathbun and Mr. De Vocht and Mr. Rinder and Amy Scobee. Those related to David Miscavige and his alleged abuses. Correct?
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MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I believe I already answered that question. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And the answer is yes. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Same objection. A. Can you repeat the question? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) The -MR. JEFFREY: Just read it back. THE REPORTER: Question: But I'm referring now not to something on some blog somewhere but I'm talking about in 2009 when you were responding as the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International about the allegations in the media by Mr. Rathbun and Mr. De Vocht and Mr. Rinder and Amy Scobee. Those related to David Miscavige and his alleged abuses. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. There were allegations being made by the people you named in the media that I was having to respond to at that time. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, you've heard other allegations where someone has actually criticized scientology, haven't you, talking about Xenu or -- or something about what the Church of Scientology teaches? You've heard those sorts of criticisms, haven't you?
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, during your trip to South Texas in 2010 to deal with John Brousseau, you said that you communicated with Linda Hamel, the head of OSA, back in Los Angeles. Did you communicate with Neil O'Reilly on that trip? A. I don't believe so, no. Q. Monty Drake has testified in this case that he spoke to you during your trip in Texas. Do you recall that? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Not specifically but I'm -- I'm not contesting that. I -- I don't -- I just don't specifically remember. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you know who Monty Drake is? A. I do. Q. Who is he? A. He is a private investigator. Q. And did you just learn that in connection with this case or is -- did you know of him back in, say, 2010? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. No. I -- I think I was -- I think I was aware of him in 2010, yeah. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And do you recall what you and
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A. I am familiar with people who have criticized the church and its beliefs. Q. Right. But when the -- when the St. Pete Times and -- and CNN did these interviews and had these stories about the Church of Scientology that you had to respond to back in 2009, it didn't have anything to do with that stuff, did it? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I found it all to be very critical of the religion, the church, its staff, its parishioners, all of their statements. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'll have to -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Because -THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'll have to change the disc. MR. JEFFREY: Pardon me? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'll have to change the disc. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. Take a quick break. MR. WINGARD: Sounds good. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:03. We're off the record. (Recess) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:15 p.m. We are now on the record with the start of disc number 3.
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Mr. Drake spoke about back in 2010 when you were down in Texas? A. I don't, honestly. Yeah. Q. Did -A. I wouldn't be able to tell you what he looked like if he was standing here right now so... Q. Now, when you flew in on private jet to the airport in Corpus Christi in the wee hours of the morning, then did you meet up with some of these folks we went over that were already there? A. No, not at that point. Q. Okay. A. Not when I arrived, no. Q. Where did you meet up with them? A. Later in the day. I think it was around midday we had lunch. Q. How did you get from Corpus Christi over to the town of Port Aransas where Mr. Brousseau was staying at a motel? A. Rental car. Q. And you can't rent a car at the Corpus Christi airport at -- at 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning, can you? A. Flight operations for the charter company arranged it, so it was there when we arrived. Q. By the way, what charter company was that?
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A. I don't recall. Q. Was it Avjet? A. I can't say. Q. You've flown private with David Miscavige before, haven't you? A. I have not. Q. You've never flown privately with him before? On a private plane, I mean. A. Actually, yes. One time I did. Q. Okay. Was that on Avjet? A. I don't know. Q. Does David Miscavige routinely fly on private jet? A. I have no idea. Q. You said that David Miscavige -- I don't know if it was you said or others have said that David Miscavige spearheads the opening of these ideal orgs or churches that the Church of Scientology opens. Does that -- is that accurate or not? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) It was a bad question. I'll -- I'll grant you that. A. Yeah. Sorry. Q. David Miscavige is involved with the opening of new ideal orgs or churches in cities around the world,
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that. Q. Okay. Thank you. So you had a rent car arranged in Corpus Christi through the private jet company. Y'all arrived. You got in a rent car and you drove to Port Aransas. Correct? A. I -- I'm not -- I'm not too familiar with that area but I think it was -- Ingleside by the Bay is where -- was where we went, I think. Q. Okay. A. Or somewhere near the water away from the airport. Q. A lot of those towns kind of run together. A. There were canals and ferries and whatever. Q. Got you. And who drove? A. I drove, actually. Q. And how did you find your way over there? A. I had a little nav thing. It was either my phone or the system in the car. Q. And so we've got all these people down there. Your group's flown in on private yet. The others got there however they got there. And they're all there because John Brousseau is there to see Mark Rathbun. Correct?
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isn't he? A. He has spoken at many of the openings of new churches. Q. And you described for us Las Vegas and you communicated with him about how the proceedings would go and -- and I don't want to get any more specific than that. But is that fair? A. Yeah. Normally when you have more than one person on a stage, you have to work out in advance who's going to stand where so... Q. Okay. And as I understand, you were completely uninvolved with the opening of the ideal org in Dallas, Texas. A. That's correct, yeah. Q. So you don't know, for example, how many days was David Miscavige in Dallas, Texas in connection with the opening of that ideal org? A. I haven't the faintest idea. Q. And you don't know how many communications and instructions and orders he might have given to personnel in Dallas to prepare for the opening of that ideal org in Dallas, do you? A. I wasn't there. Q. So that's correct? A. I was not there so I would -- I wouldn't know
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A. No. Q. Okay. Why are they there? A. Who's "they"? Sorry. Q. You, the -- the -- your traveling companions, and then all the other folks you and I have talked about. There may be more but that's all the ones I knew to ask you about. A. Got it. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Got it. Okay. So Angie, Laurence, Bob, and myself -- excuse me -- were there to see JB. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. We wanted to see JB. Q. And what were the other ones there for? A. They wanted to see Marty. Q. Okay. In connection with JB being there or they just coincidentally happened to be there at the same time? A. No, no. They were there because they wanted to see Marty specifically because of the things that Marty had been saying in the press and on the Internet. Q. So it was -A. And -- and I had been approached by a number of them about that fact. So when I told them that I was going to see yet another person who was -- when I told
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them that I was going to see someone who was going to see Marty -Q. Uh-huh. A. -- in my opinion who I thought might be going to see Marty, they said that they would like to go. They would like to be there. They would like to see Marty at that time. Q. So they coincidentally were there. They didn't go there because of the John Brousseau visit? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I would say more they went there because they knew I was going. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. But they got there before you. Right? A. Correct. Q. So they knew you were going before you ever went? A. Yeah. Because I told them I was going to go. Q. Okay. And so why were you there? A. Because JB was my friend and I wanted to see him. I didn't understand why he was doing what he was doing. Q. And what was he doing? A. Picking up and vanishing with no apparent explanation and appearing in close proximity with someone
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Q. Okay. And let me -MR. JEFFREY: I do have an exhibit. I didn't want to finish this deposition without having an exhibit. Would you mark that, please? (Exhibit 1 marked) MR. JEFFREY: Do we just have two? Just have these two copies? Y'all are going to have to share these if you -- this one, if you would. A. Do you want me to read it? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, I know from experience that if I start asking you about this before you've have had an opportunity to look at it, I'm going to get a chorus of -- of objections, so please read it over. MR. STRIEBER: I have no idea what it is but I'm going to just -MR. JEFFREY: You're going to object to -MR. STRIEBER: -- see where -MR. JEFFREY: -- it anyway so -MR. STRIEBER: I'm going to ask -- I'm just going to wait and see where you're going to go with it. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: But I may want to take a look at it. MR. JEFFREY: Sure.
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who was viscously attacking my friends and my church and my religion. Q. And David Miscavige? A. Yeah. He's a friend of mine as well. Q. Okay. And so what were you wanting to accomplish? A. I wanted to find out what was up, why JB had done that, why he had taken off, what was wrong, what happened. I had just seen him not 36 hours or -- or maybe a bit more -- a couple days before, and he stopped me and had given me a big hug and asked me how I was doing and we had this great conversation. And it was stunning. It made no sense. I didn't understand it, especially with someone that I considered to be such a good friend. Q. Is JB the -- the only person that has abruptly taken off and left the Church of Scientology International or Religious Technology Center or any of the other scientology corporations? A. No, he is not the only person who has ever done that. Q. Have you ever gone to see any other of your friends that have taken off abruptly because you wanted to find out what was going on? A. No.
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MR. WINGARD: You want to make copies real quick? MR. JEFFREY: Fantastic idea. (Discussion off the record) THE WITNESS: Should I read it? Does he need to tell me what it is? Like -MR. WINGARD: Yeah, it would be good for you to read it. THE WITNESS: Does somebody else want to read it first or -MR. STRIEBER: Yeah. (Recess) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:30. We're now on the record. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Mr. Davis, what is Exhibit 1 to your deposition? A. A couple pieces of paper with handwriting on them. Q. Okay. Is that your handwriting? A. It is. Q. And so is it a note that you wrote to John Brousseau and slipped under his door on the day of this communication we've been talking about? A. It is. Q. Okay. Would you please -- your -- your
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handwriting's way better than mine. But would you please just read Exhibit 1 into the record for us. MR. WINGARD: You can do that. A. JB, this is nuts. We just want to talk. We're here to resolve whatever is going on but you do need to understand the consequences of what has been done and what you've gotten yourself into personally. We have with us docs you have previously signed and which place you at risk. We mean you no ill will and we are not here to persuade you to come back. Rather, we hope we can reach an understanding whereby you abide by the covenants you have signed and that we will refrain from further contact. We're here because we're your friends and want -- wanted to help you do the least amount of damage to yourself and to scientology. We've come a long way to talk to you and have approached you in a straightforward way. I'm going to call you in -- wow -- I'm going to call you in room in five minutes so we can talk. We can end and resolve this simply and now so let's just talk. Q. Okay. Now, before you actually got there to Texas, you had talked with one or more of the folks that were down there that wanted to see Marty. Correct?
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5:00 or 5:30 in the morning about what he was doing? A. Correct. Q. It had nothing to do with keeping Marty from getting over to try to help John Brousseau? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I can't speculate as to that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, who was sort of directing the activities that day? Was it you, the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Nothing beyond what I've already told you. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And you told us earlier that you just went down there as a friend to say, hey, what -what happened. But you've read us the note that you actually wrote at the time to communicate with him. Correct? A. I wrote this note after he refused to speak with me. I spoke to him in person and he went back into his room and closed and locked the door and wouldn't answer it. And after a period of time, I wrote this note and put it under his door. Q. As I understand what happened, Mr. Brousseau came outside of his room at 5:30 in the morning and there you were with Angie and -- I can't remember the other ones' names -- to see him. Correct?
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Marty Rathbun? A. Correct. Q. And so you and your group went to the motel where John Brousseau was staying on the Texas coast. A. That's correct. Q. And the other folks that you had spoken with beforehand, where did they go? A. They went to Marty's. Q. Okay. And did -- what was -- what were -- was their function in being at Marty's? A. They wanted to confront Marty about what he had been saying and doing vis--vis the church and -Q. Okay. A. -- the like. Q. Well, it's 5:00 or 5:30 in the morning and you are confronting John Brousseau at his motel. And those folks went to Marty Rathbun's house. Are you aware that they attempted to block him from leaving his house to go to John Brousseau's aid? A. I -MR. STRIEBER: Objection. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I'm not aware of that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So you -- but your understanding was they were going to chat with Marty at
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A. Correct. Q. Did they -- he seem to be surprised by that? A. Did who -- did who seem? Did JB? Q. John Brousseau. Did he seem surprised that he walked out of his motel room at 5:30 in the morning and there's his old bud from Los Angeles waiting to talk to him with three other people? A. If he was, he didn't act that way. We just started talking. Q. And he turned around, went back in his room, locked the door, and wouldn't speak to you. Correct? A. No. Q. Isn't that what you said? A. No. We spoke for a brief period of time. Q. Okay. A. We went downstairs and walked around a bit and chatted and -Q. You chatted and -A. Yeah. Q. And what did you -- what did you chat about? A. I asked him -- I mean, this is, four -- what, three or four years ago but "What's going on? What are you -- what happened?" Q. Right. A. We were just -- "I just saw you a couple of days
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ago. I don't understand. Can you fill me in? Can you explain this to me?" Q. And what did he tell you? A. He said, "I don't want to talk about it. I have nothing to say to you. I like you." Actually, I think he said he -- if I recall, I remember him saying that he loved me and that he considered me a really good friend and that he was really sorry. And he just kind of kept saying various versions of that more -Q. Did he -A. -- than once. Q. Did he tell you that -- that he couldn't handle any longer being on -- in the scientology compound where people were being beaten and imprisoned in this thing called the Hole? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did he tell you that? A. I just told you what he said to me and that is what he said to me. He did not say anything along the lines of what you just stated. Q. Okay. Were you aware that he was the fellow that actually was charged with putting the bars on the windows of the Hole so that people couldn't escape? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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you have previously signed and which place you at risk. Q. What were those documents that he signed and placed him at risk? A. I don't know. I don't have the documents here to look at. I'd have to review them. Q. What kinds of documents do people sign in Church of Scientology corporations that put them at risk? A. You'd have to ask someone in CSI, corporate legal document, whatever, people that -Q. Well -A. I don't have any here to review so I can't -Q. I get an opportunity to ask the guy that actually wrote this note about docs that put him at risk. What kinds of docs do you sign in the Church of Scientology that put you at risk? MR. WINGARD: Objection. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You can answer that. MR. WINGARD: Objection, asked and answered. A. I'd have to review them to know. I've signed many -- I -- if I were to speak about my personal experience -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yeah. A. -- I've signed many things over the years. But otherwise, I'd have to -- I -- and even those, I would
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Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So he said he didn't want to talk to you anymore. So you weren't, I guess, going to find out what happened and so you wrote him this note. And what you wrote him in this note was that you wanted to be sure that he abided by the documents that he had signed with the church. Correct? A. I -MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I read the note to you. It says what it says. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You wrote the note so you can take ownership of the note, Mr. Davis. I can ask you what the note is about. A. Okay. Q. Is that doable? A. Yes. MR. WINGARD: I'm -Q. Okay. MR. WINGARD: I'm objecting to form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So you said in this note to him that you wanted to make sure that he wasn't going to get himself in any deep trouble and that -- that he needed to abide by the documents he previously signed and that put him at risk. What did you mean by "at risk"? A. I said specifically here: We have with us docs
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have to see them for me to be able to tell you what they referred to or the context in which they were signed. Q. But the documents that Mr. Brousseau signed put him at risk, according to you. A. That is what I wrote here. Q. Did the documents you signed over the years with the Church of Scientology put you at risk? A. I have no reason to believe that they have, no. Q. Okay. And -- now, you know, don't you, that John Brousseau didn't work for your corporation, the Church of Scientology International, did he? A. He did not, I don't believe. Q. He worked for the Religious Technology Center. Correct? A. That is correct. Q. And he worked extensively with David Miscavige over the year on -- over the years on various projects. A. I don't know. Q. Okay. So any documents he signed were documents between him and the organization he worked for, the Religious Technology Center. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I don't know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, you had them with you. A. I don't recall.
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Q. Well, why would a guy working for the Religious Technology Center sign documents with the Church of Scientology International? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. It's a mischaracterization of prior testimony. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Would he? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I have no idea. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you believe that the documents he signed that put him at risk were with RTC or with CSI? MR. WINGARD: Object to form. A. I don't know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. You go on to say in the note: We hope we can reach an understanding whereby you abide by the covenants you have signed and we will refrain from further contact. On whose authority were you there to see that Mr. Brousseau, down there visiting Mr. Rathbun on the coast of Texas, would -- that he would abide by the covenants he had signed? MR. WINGARD: Objection to form. A. On whose authority? Is that what -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yeah.
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I don't know. I don't know. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You -- in addition to David Miscavige, you dealt quite a bit with his wife, Shelly Miscavige, over the years, didn't you? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. What do you mean by "dealt"? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Communicated with, coordinated things with. A. No. I knew her. Q. So how often would you communicate with Shelly Miscavige during the years that you were the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International? MR. WINGARD: Ray, can you help me understand what this has to do with jurisdiction? MR. JEFFREY: Yes. The jurisdictional challenges by RTC and David Miscavige. Shelly Miscavige was David Miscavige's wife and assistant and she was an employee of RTC. MR. WINGARD: At this time? MR. JEFFREY: At -- today? MR. WINGARD: No, no, no. At the time that all these events were transpiring. I'm just -- I'm asking you. MR. JEFFREY: I'm asking him. He can fill
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A. -- you asked me? CSI. Q. An employee of RTC? You were authorized by CSI to go down and make sure that this employee of RTC, who had fled from the Gold Base out in the desert -- that he abided by the covenants he had signed? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Is that true? A. I was a staffmember of CSI. I was working as a CSI staffmember. Q. Now, as you did this work down in Texas to make sure that John Brousseau kept with the contracts and covenants that he had signed, what communication was going to David Miscavige back in California, or wherever he was, concerning your success or lack thereof? A. I have no knowledge of any communication to Mr. Miscavige. Q. So there you were on this rather important mission to South Texas and you don't know whether or not Mr. Miscavige was closely following that mission or not? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I have no information that would indicate that he was. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Or that he wasn't. If you have information that he wasn't, what was it?
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me in. That's why I'm asking questions. To get answers. I -- I don't have all the answers. MR. WINGARD: Okay. A. Could you ask me the question again? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I don't even remember what it was now. A. That makes two of us. Q. How -- I'll -- let me take another stab at it. Back during the time that you were the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, about how often would you communicate with Shelly Miscavige, the wife and assistant to David Miscavige and an employee of RTC? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Answer if you can. A. Never. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You never communicated with her? A. No. Q. Where is Shelly Miscavige today? A. I have no idea. Q. It's been widely reported that you told Leah Remini -- and I'll ask the court reporter to forgive me -- that she didn't have the fucking rank to ask where Shelly Miscavige is. Do you remember that?
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MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. MR. STRIEBER: You're outside the scope of discovery as to jurisdiction in this case. And I'll ask counsel to instruct the witness not to answer the question. MR. WINGARD: I'll instruct the witness not to answer. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, Shelly Miscavige was an employee and direct assistant to David Miscavige, was she not? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. Same instruction. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. STRIEBER: Asked and answered also. MR. WINGARD: Instruct the witness not to answer. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I'm trying to figure out what business it would be of yours as an employee of CSI, the chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, to be instructing who may and may not inquire about the whereabouts of an employee of a different corporation, RTC, and the assistant to David Miscavige. MR. WINGARD: Same instruction.
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A. We probably -- the point at which we became really close was probably starting in about 2008. Q. And what were you doing that you became close friends with an employee of RTC who worked out on the fenced compound of scientology in the desert near Hemet, California? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. We were on a project together on the church's religious retreat known as the Freewinds. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Were you -- what were you doing on the Freewinds? A. Working. Q. What kind of work? A. Public relations. Q. And so all day long every day? How long did this go on that you were doing public relations work for the Church of Scientology International on the Freewinds? MR. STRIEBER: Ray, could you stick to jurisdiction, please? MR. JEFFREY: I'm trying to find out about the relationship between him and John Brousseau of RTC. MR. STRIEBER: So now you're asking what his schedule was on the Freewinds. MR. JEFFREY: I'm not asking about -MR. STRIEBER: You're outside.
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MR. JEFFREY: If you don't think that has anything to do with the jurisdiction in this case, you're wrong. So are you going to instruct him -MR. WINGARD: Are you -MR. JEFFREY: -- not to answer that question? MR. WINGARD: Yes. Are you suing over that alleged statement? That has nothing to do with Texas. MR. JEFFREY: I -- I forgive you. You're a newbie to this case. But it -- the allegations are all there. All of this stuff is in controversy. And I'm not going to sit here and give you a tutorial on what the case is about. So if you've instructed him not to answer, so be it. Maybe we'll get to ask him at another time. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. John Brousseau was a long-time employee or staffmember, however you want to call it, of the Religious Technology Center, wasn't he? A. I don't know. Q. Well, you said he was a good friend of yours. A. I don't know if he was a "long-time." I knew him -- in the time period I knew him, he was a staffmember of RTC. Q. So the -- he was a very good friend of yours. How long was he a very good friend of yours?
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MR. JEFFREY: -- his schedule. MR. STRIEBER: Just come back to -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) How long did you do this assignment on the Freewinds? MR. WINGARD: I'm going to -- I'm going to object and instruct him not to answer. I have no idea where this is going. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So you're down there in Aransas Pass or Ingleside on the Bay to see John Brousseau and you give him this note. And you tell us -and I guess we can get them produced by the defendants in this case. You tell us that you were there -- or you've told us in this note that you were there to make sure that he did not violate these agreements he had signed. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. At the point at which it became obvious that he was not going to talk to me and that he truly was angry, I guess, or whatever, I wrote this note. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And so you wrote the note but you -- you already had to have brought the contracts with you, didn't you? Or did you have them faxed to you after he said he would no longer talk to you? A. I don't recall. I don't recall. Honestly, I
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don't recall at which point I had the documents. Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Davis, that you got on a private plane chartered by CSI or paid for by CSI to go down and confront John Brousseau and show him these documents he had signed that he better abide with? Isn't that true? A. No. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) It's just that when he -- that you went down there to ask him one question, "What's going on?" And when he didn't talk to you anymore, you just happened to have those contracts that you then said, "Hey, this is what we want to make sure, that you don't get yourself in any more trouble that you're already in and that you abide by these contracts." MR. WINGARD: Objection -Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Is that what your testimony is? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. Could you give that to me again? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I don't -- these are -- these are hard questions, I know. MR. WINGARD: They're confusing. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) You went down there to ask him a question, which is what -- you've told us your good
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A. Thank you. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:51. We are off the record. (Recess) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:04. We are now on the record. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) I want to make sure I have the two projects you referred to that you had done in Texas while you were chief spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International. You described for me going to Dallas to deal with some inquiries or something about the Dallas church. Doesn't matter the details. That's one. Right? A. Correct. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And is the -MR. WINGARD: Well, he didn't call them projects. He said he had been to Texas twice. MR. JEFFREY: I -- your objection is perfectly fine. MR. WINGARD: Okay. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And -A. I think we both know what you're talking about. Q. Yeah, yeah. You went to Dallas for whatever. A. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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buddy John Brousseau had fled the base in California and gone all the way to the Texas coast to see Mark Rathbun. And you wanted to go down there and ask him why, what was going on. Is that true? A. Correct. Q. Not complicated. A. No. Q. And he made it very clear to you he didn't want to talk to you. Right? A. Correct. Q. He went back in his room, closed and locked the door, and so you had to slide a note under his door. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And you told him in the note that you were going to be calling his room because this is really important. Y'all needed to talk about this. He had signed documents that put him at risk and you wanted to make sure that he was going to abide by those agreements. Correct? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. That is what I said in the note. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And -A. Before you ask me another question, could we take a break? Q. Yes.
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Q. And then was the other one the trip to Ingleside on the Bay or was it something else that I'm -- that I haven't covered yet? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. When I referred to there being two times that I came to Texas on CSI-related activities, those -- the two that we've discussed are the ones I was referring to. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So I don't need to go into some other incident? A. No, no. Q. Now, how long did the whole interaction with John Brousseau go on at the motel on the Texas coast? A. I can't -- I can't imagine I was there for more than about 30 minutes. Q. Okay. And so you gave him the note. You said, "I'm going to call you." You called him. Did he talk to you? A. No. Q. Okay. A. No. Q. And then -- you didn't stand outside banging on his door or anything like that? A. No. Q. And so then where did you go next? A. Went into town, I guess, or -- or whatever the
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local -- the closest sort of place to kind of place to eat or -Q. Yeah. A. You know, a Starbucks, coffee, something like that. It was, as you said, pretty early in the morning. Q. And what time did you fly out that day, roughly? A. Early afternoon would be me -- midday to early afternoon would be my recollection. Q. So you went and got some coffee or regrouped, whatever it might be, and then what happened next? A. Had lunch. Q. There's some -- you realize there's some hours going by there. A. Yeah, sure. No, I had lunch, met up with the other guys. We had lunch. And then -- and then we were getting ready to head out. Q. Did you call back to Linda Hamel or anyone else back in California and find out if there anything else you ought to do or see what they thought about the situation? A. I mean, I called her and told her what was happening and that we were probably going to make our way back. Q. Okay. And what did she say? A. She said, "Okay, got it."
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Q. -- to catch a ride back, that sort of thing. A. Midday would be my recollection. Q. Okay. And did you -A. Or -Q. -- go to a local cafe or a McDonald's -A. Mid to early afternoon. Q. -- or a -- we're proud in Texas of Whataburger. Did you go to our local chain called Whataburger? A. No, we did not go to Whataburger. Q. Okay. Well, some -A. I honestly don't remember. Q. Oh, you know Whataburger now because you live here. A. Sure I do. Come on. MR. WINGARD: Corpus Christi's the birthplace of Whataburger. MR. JEFFREY: Birthplace, yeah. THE WITNESS: Exactly. MR. JEFFREY: And you can go to the headquarters -- well, not any longer. MR. WINGARD: Did they take that down? MR. JEFFREY: They moved to San Antonio. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) So anyway, Whataburger jokes aside, did you -- did you grab a burger, a bite to eat with them?
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Q. Now, you said you had lunch with Michael Doven. Correct? A. I think so. Although, you know, actually, hold on a second now. This was a while ago. I don't think I actually -- I don't remember meeting up with all the people that we -Q. Right. A. -- that we ran through the names of. I don't recall seeing all of them. I remember seeing Michael Roberts. Maybe either Jan or Marla. The point is, I don't -- I don't really remember all of it or the timing of it or -Q. Right. A. -- at what point in the day I saw them. I -- it may have been later in the day that we finally kind of all connected up because I thought some of them might want to catch a ride, frankly. Q. Okay. And where was that and -- and roughly what time of day was that? A. Midday, late afternoon, something like that. Q. Did you go to a -A. You mean in terms of when we met up to take off? Q. No, no. You -- you said you felt like you ought to meet up with them and some of them might want -A. Oh.
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A. Yeah. I just don't remember where. Q. And do you -- what did y'all discuss or conclude about that particular day and -- and the accomplishments or lack thereof? A. I mean, we just kind of chatted. I didn't really talk to them about what I had been doing so -Q. Okay. That was back in like May of 2010, I believe. And you left the church, as I understand it, in -- as a -- as the spokesperson working for CSI in late '11. Is that -- I -- that's just what I'm remembering. MR. JEFFREY: Does anyone else know? A. Yeah. My leave of absence began in -- in late 2011, yeah. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. So -- now during that time between when you went down there and when you left in late '11, there was the whole Squirrel Busters thing going on. Correct? A. I do remember hearing about that, yeah. Q. And -- well, there were, you know, fairly significant stories on film and on -- in print about the whole Squirrel Busters episode. Were you ever contacted about any of that by the -- the media? A. No. Q. Why was that? A. I don't know.
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MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. You'd have to ask the media. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Well, no. I guess -- I'm sorry. I guess I'm assuming something, which is, I've seen media responses out there by the -A. No. Q. -- Church of Scientology. A. Yeah. Q. And they came from someone. Did you -A. Fair question. Fair question. Q. Yeah. A. I -- I think the media's interest in that story came after the period at which I was no longer acting as a spokesperson for the church. Q. Okay. So you never had to answer what were these Squirrel Busters and what were they doing down there and that sort of thing? A. No, no. Q. How many scientologists are there in Texas, roughly, or as of the last time you -- you might have had an accurate count? MR. WINGARD: Objection to form. A. I have no idea. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Have you ever been aware -- you know, serving as -- as the international
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Web site of RTC? It's ww.RTC.org. A. I know it exists. I've seen it. Q. And you know that on that Web site there's a page that solicits people in Texas, and around the world for that matter, to submit reports about alleged suppressive people or squirrels or -- or people doing things harmful to the Church of Scientology? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I am aware that one can -- any scientologist or anybody can file reports to Religious Technology Center on matters of RTC concern. And then those matters are listed very clearly and -- and can be seen in the places where those reports would be made or turned in. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Have you ever seen any of those reports? A. Like a report written to RTC? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. And do you know whether or not those reports are -- if reports are made -A. I'm sorry. Actually, let me correct that. Q. Yes. A. In the nearly 21 years in which I was a Sea Org member actively working in the Church of Scientology, I did see copies of reports written over the years by
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spokesperson for the Church of Scientology, you know, just kind of "Texas has X number of scientologists"? A. It would -- it was never a figure that I dealt with. Q. And how many scientology churches of one type or another -- I know there are different classifications. A. Uh-huh. Q. Missions and ideal orgs and things like that. But do you know how many churches of one type or another scientology has in Texas? A. I don't. MR. WINGARD: And when you're saying scientology, can you clarify what you mean? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) The scientology religion. You frown on churches opening up that say "Scientology" on them if they're not affiliated with the Church of Scientology International, don't you? A. Correct. Yeah. Q. Okay. That's what I mean. Anything you would consider to be a legitimate scientology church, do you have any idea how many there are in the state of Texas? A. I don't. Q. Okay. A. I don't. Q. Now, are you or were you ever familiar with the
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various people for various reasons either to RTC or info to RTC on matters of RTC concerns. I -- I couldn't honestly -Q. Okay. A. -- say I've never seen one. Q. Sure. A. So it would be rare for someone, any staffmember of any duration, to have never seen one. Q. But I'm talking specifically about the reports that someone can go online at the RTC Web site and submit. Have you ever seen any of those? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I don't believe I have. Not that I can recall, no. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. And do you know whether or not or how many of those reports are forwarded to David Miscavige? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. A. I have no idea. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Did you speak with Dave Lubow while you were in Texas about the John Brousseau events? A. No. Q. Do you know who Dave Lubow is? A. I do. Q. Who is he?
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A. He is a private investigator. Q. Has he worked for many years on assignments for Church of Scientology International? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. A. To my knowledge he was hired by church counsel and has worked for attorneys retained by the Church of Scientology. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) And -A. Now, for how long he's done that, I do not know. Q. As long as you can remember? MS. BASCON: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I -- yeah, sorry. It's so inspecific, I couldn't tell you. If you're asking me when did I first meet Dave Lubow? Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yeah, let me ask you that one. That's a good -- good question. A. Maybe -- I don't know -- five years ago. Q. And what's the spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International doing with Dave Lubow? A. Riding in an elevator. Q. Okay. And he's up at the Church of Scientology International offices? A. No. It was actually at Celebrity Centre. Q. Okay. Which is another scientology organization
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A. Sure. But there's no signature. Q. Okay. Are you saying that you would normally sign something like this? A. Generally one signs handwritten notes, yes. So yeah, I assume I would. Q. Of course, you had just encountered him minutes before, hadn't you? A. True. Q. Okay. But be that as it may, the words that we have on Exhibit 1 are in your handwriting. Correct? A. That is correct, yes. Q. Okay. We're about to shut this down. I'm just making sure I didn't -- once you're gone, you're gone. Did you ever tell me if you told Leah Remini she didn't have the "blank" rank to ask where Shelly Miscavige was, or was that one of our things and you were instructed not to answer? MR. WINGARD: Objection. MR. STRIEBER: It was. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. MR. WINGARD: Instruct him not to answer. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Do you mind telling me? MR. STRIEBER: No. Same instruction. MR. WINGARD: Objection. Instruct him not to answer.
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in Los Angeles? A. Correct. Q. And, you know, sometimes I get sloppy about these things. Is Exhibit 1 to your deposition a true and correct copy of the note that you wrote to John Brousseau back during that visit we've been talking about in Texas? A. I don't know. I'd have to see the original. I don't know if it's been altered, changed, or redacted or -- or messed around with. But it is my handwriting. Q. Okay. And -A. And it is -- and it is a Xeroxed copy of something. Q. Okay. And -- well, you're the author of it. As you read it and see it in front of you, is there anything in there that tells you, "Hey, I didn't write that" or "I said something and it's left out"? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I don't see anything that I don't recall writing. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. A. But it is possible that something could be missing or gone and I wouldn't recall that. Q. Okay. But that's just speculation? A. It ends abruptly, is the reason I'm saying that. Q. Well, it ends with "so let's just talk."
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MR. JEFFREY: Just one second. I'll pass the witness. Thank you, Mr. Davis. And we'll review the transcript and see if we need to reconvene this for any of the reasons previously stated. Thank you. MR. JEFFERSON: I'm going to ask just a few questions, Ray, if you don't mind. MR. JEFFREY: Okay. EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFERSON: Q. Mr. Davis, my name is Lamont Jefferson and I'm here representing the Religious Technology Center, who I'll refer to from time to time as RTC, and also David Miscavige in this litigation. Do you understand that? A. Yes, I do. Q. We met just before the deposition began, did he we not? A. We -- we met in this room, yeah. Q. So I've got about ten minutes' worth of questions for you, just to -- so the lawyers in the room can get a feel for how much time this will take. Have we talked about this case before this deposition began, you and I? A. Never, no. Q. Have you spoken with anybody from my office
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about the facts of this case? A. I have not. Q. We haven't laid eyes on one another before this deposition began. Isn't that true? A. No, sir, we have not. Q. Okay. Let me ask you a little bit about this -this encounter in Texas, first of all. What's been marked as Exhibit 1, you've identified these as notes that you wrote. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. When's the last time you saw these notes? A. When I wrote it. Q. So if you wrote it at the time you saw Mr. Brousseau, when would that have been? A. I believe the time period in question is April of 2010. Q. Okay. So that would have been three and a half years ago, if my math is correct. A. Correct. Q. Okay. And you don't -- do you specifically remember writing the words that appear on Exhibit 1? A. I do, yeah. Q. Okay. A. Yeah. Q. You remember the incident where you wrote a note
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improper or illegal or wrong about Mr. Brousseau leaving the church and taking with him computer files of the church? A. That would definitely be -- be wrong in the eyes of the church, certainly, and also just in the eyes of the law. I can certainly speak from the viewpoint now of working elsewhere, it would be wrong anywhere. Q. When you went to see Mr. Brousseau in Texas, were you aware of any sort of ongoing law enforcement investigation into that incident? A. Ms. Hamel had informed me that there was -there was or had been communication with law enforcement on the subject of the stolen material. Q. Did you have any personal concerns about your friend, Mr. Brousseau, in light of that investigation? A. Very much so. I mean, outside of whatever concerns I had as far as just my friend and our church and our shared religion and -- and the Sea Org, I was concerned that he would end up in jail. Q. Okay. A. Or minimally in some sort of severe legal trouble. Q. And what is your understanding of Ms. Hamel's position at that time with CSI, with the Church of Scientology International?
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to Mr. Brousseau? A. Yes, yes, yes. I -- I do remember writing this note, yeah. Q. Okay. You've testified before that you were authorized to make the trip to Texas. Is that correct? A. Yes. I coordinated with my senior at that time, Linda Hamel. Q. And Linda Hamel was your senior at the time? A. Correct. Q. At the time that you were authorized by Ms. Hamel to make this trip to Texas, do you know whether there was any sort of law enforcement action ongoing with respect to Mr. Brousseau's departure from the church? A. Yes. Q. Can you explain what you understood that law enforcement action to have been? A. It was explained to me by Ms. Hamel that it had become clear, based on materials particularly of a computer nature that had been found after his departure, that he had left with computer files. Q. Okay. A. That he had taken church material upon his departure. Q. Do you know whether -- based on your 21 years with the Sea Org, whether there would be anything
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A. She was at that time the commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs. Q. Okay. Did you receive any authorization from RTC to travel to Texas to see Mr. Brousseau? A. No. Q. Did you receive any authorization from David Miscavige to travel to Texas to see Mr. Brousseau? A. No. Q. Did you receive any communications from either RTC or David Miscavige with respect to your trip to Texas to see Mr. Brousseau in 2010? A. Not before, not during, and not after. Q. Did you receive any instructions indirectly from either RTC or Mr. Miscavige with respect to your trip to Texas to see Mr. Brousseau? A. No. Q. Mr. Davis, you -- so you were with the Sea Org for 21 years? A. Correct. I joined the Sea Org in January of 1991. Q. And you of course know who Mr. Miscavige is? A. Of course I do. And I know him. Q. And can you explain the stature that Mr. Miscavige has within the scientology hierarchy? A. He is the ecclesiastical leader of the church.
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And so in -- in that regard, he's -- it's probably simplest to put it in the standpoint, is -- that he's considered by scientologists, Sea Org members, and everybody as the leader of the church. But, you know, as far as Sea Org members are concerned, or the like, he's not involved in the day-to-day operations or the management of the churches. Q. Mr. Jeffrey asked you whether Mr. Miscavige -whether you knew whether Mr. Miscavige was involved in instructions or direction with respect to your visit to Texas to see Mr. Brousseau. And I think your response was you -- you didn't know of any. Is that right? A. Yeah. I -- well, there weren't any. Q. Okay. A. I mean, I didn't receive any instructions and I didn't ever observe that any such instructions existed. Q. Okay. Hypothetically speaking, just based on your 21 years of experience with the Sea Org, if Mr. Miscavige were personally involved, if he were issuing direction and instruction with respect to your trip to Texas, do you think you would have known about it? A. Without question. Q. Okay. There were, I think you testified, about two instances where you had some connection to Texas.
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A. No. Q. Okay. Was the RTC involved in -- in any manner, in the responses that you provided to the media in 2009 with respect to attacks on the church? MR. JEFFREY: Objection, form. A. I did -- I -- yeah. At that time, when I was doing the investigation into the allegations that were being made by former scientologists, I requested any reports that were contemporaneous to the time period in which the allegations existed. And the person that I spoke to about that was Mr. Warren McShane. Q. Okay. So in order to -A. Other than that, I believe that -- I can't recall any other interaction with RTC. Q. And explain again. So what was the -- the -the purpose for that communication? A. There were allegations that were being made -false allegations that were being made to the St. Pete Times, that the St. Pete Times was then relaying to me or asking me about. In order to respond to those, I had to understand -- I had to have a better understanding of the context under which they occurred or were alleged to have occurred or even the time period because it was not something that I had firsthand knowledge of, was around
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This was one of them, the visit to Ingleside on the Bay -A. Yes, sir. Q. -- to see Mr. Brousseau. What was the other? A. I visited the newly opened Church of Scientology in Dallas because I was reviewing a number of our new churches and interviewing parishioners and staff for the purposes of a media piece that was -- that I was working on at that time. I don't particularly remember which one, but it was a -- it was a large media outlet that was interested in seeing Churches of Scientology. Q. Okay. Mr. Davis, you -- you mentioned in 2009 that the -- you were responding to media inquiries on behalf of the church. Do you recall that line of questioning? A. Yes, I do. Q. Did you receive -- first of all, were any of those communications -- did any of those communications have anything to do with the state of Texas, to your knowledge? A. No, no. Q. Were any of those communications sent by you to someone in Texas, any media responses that you can recall to Texas entities or individuals?
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for, or so on and so forth. And so we went about -- went about interviewing various people that the allegations were being made about. As part of that, it was helpful also to find out if there were any internal reports or anything else that would inform my investigation or make it easier for me to talk to these people or in some cases refresh their memory on the time period, "Well, you wrote this report on this date. Can you tell me anything more about that," that kind of thing. And some of the information related to staff of RTC, and hence I had to ask Mr. McShane. Q. Other than receiving information from the RTC with respect to knowledge held within RTC, did you receive any instruction or direction from Mr. McShane or the RTC, someone in a position of authority, on how to respond to the media inquiry that you were involved in -A. No. Q. -- in 2009 and 2010? A. No. That was my responsibility. And obviously I was working with counsel at the time and the like but... Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Davis. MR. JEFFERSON: I'll pass the witness. Let me give you this.
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FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFREY: Q. Well, it's not entirely my fault but lawyers cannot let a change of questions go by without asking a couple. Mr. Jefferson, the lawyer for David Miscavige and RTC made a point of asking you whether you had communicated with him before this deposition. Correct? MR. WINGARD: I object to the sidebar before the question. You can answer if you can. A. Yeah, he asked me that. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Okay. Do you know whether or not the lawyer hired for you by the Church of Scientology International, or whoever the heck it was, communicated with the lawyer for RTC or David Miscavige about your testimony here today? MR. WINGARD: I'll caution the witness not to disclose any information that you would have learned from counsel. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Yeah. But I'm asking you instead, do you know whether or not they communicated in that more roundabout fashion? A. I do not, no.
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matters. MR. JEFFREY: I'm not going to explain a doggone thing to you. MR. WINGARD: You don't have to. MR. JEFFREY: It's in the pleadings, it's been argued in court, and it's going to be argued in court again. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Simple question. Are you familiar with the history of the Guardian's Office in the Church of Scientology International? MR. STRIEBER: Objection, form. MR. WINGARD: Objection, scope. Instruct him not to answer unless you can explain how that has anything to do with jurisdiction. MR. JEFFREY: I don't have any obligation to explain anything to you. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Was Linda Hamel a member of the Guardian's Office of the Church of Scientology International? A. I don't know. Q. Was Warren McShane a member of the Guardian's Office of the Church of Scientology International? A. I do not know. Q. Was Neil O'Reilly a member of the Guardian's Office of the Church of Scientology International?
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Q. Okay. Very good. And one thing I noted is that you described Linda Hamel as commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And she's a member of the Sea Org, isn't she? A. She is. Q. And by the way, as being an informed spokesperson for the Church of Scientology International, you are generally familiar with the notorious episode of the Guardian's Office and those members of the Guardian's Office going to prison? MR. WINGARD: I'm going to object to scope. MR. STRIEBER: Object, form. MR. WINGARD: Instruct the witness not to answer. The scope of the deposition is jurisdiction. MR. JEFFREY: This is directly on point. MR. WINGARD: No. MR. STRIEBER: I don't believe -MR. JEFFREY: It is. MR. WINGARD: I'm instructing him not to answer unless you can explain how that has anything to do -MR. JEFFREY: No. MR. WINGARD: -- with jurisdictional
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A. I do not know. Q. Was Allan Cartwright a member of the Guardian's Office of the Church of Scientology International? A. I don't know. Q. Are you aware that David Miscavige has sworn under oath that the church makes it -- takes great care to make sure that those involved with improper activities of the Guardian's Office are removed from the Church of Scientology and that -- that the errors of the Guardian's Office not be allowed to be repeated? MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Are you aware of that? A. You seem to be regurgitating to me something that you read or heard of somewhere. If you're reciting something specific, I'd appreciate if you'd show it to me. Otherwise, I don't understand why I'm being asked this. Q. Well, I'm not asking you what was said somewhere else. I'm asking if you were aware. If you're not aware, you weren't aware. MR. WINGARD: I'm going to object to the form. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) It's not a hard question. Are you aware that he has -A. I would have to rephrase the entirety of what
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you said. And even then, I can't even remember to -- to approximate something that I could say that I understand. Q. I know. It's really difficult. What is a COB order? Is that a clear question? A. Not particularly, no. What's your definition of order? Q. I'm asking you. Is there something within the world of scientology called a COB order? A. No. Q. Never heard of that? A. I have never heard of that. Q. In the world of scientology what is a compliance report? A. It would be a report that one would write for the purposes of reporting back to a senior or just on a project in general that that particular -- if it -- if one received an order and you completed the order, you would file a compliance report to evidence that you had done so. Or it could be, you know, a target on a program and you would do a similar thing. Q. By the way, no question in your mind as a scientologist when you hear COB, you know who I'm talking about. Right? A. Correct.
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Miscavige? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And if you -- if you as a Sea Org member receive an order originating with David Miscavige, whether it's called a COB order or not, then you are required to do a compliance report. Correct? A. Correct. Q. To prove that you have complied with the order. A. Correct. Q. And do -- what do you call those orders, if you don't call them COB orders? A. It's an -- look, the only way I can really answer this question, because you're asking me in the abstract, would be to give an example. And the example would be for -- in the case of a time period in scientology where there was the release of what's referred to as the Golden Age of Tech. And they were programs that were implemented in individual churches. And those programs -- some of them originated from RTC or from COB. And so one would do compliance reports to those targets as an org and then those reports would go back up to RTC. They were considered to be being executed with the authority of RTC and -- and COB because it was to put in and ensure the purity and the correct application of L. Ron Hubbard's
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Q. Who is COB? A. Chairman of the board of the Religious Technology Center, Mr. David Miscavige. Q. Okay. And whether you personally know it or refer to it as a COB order, are you familiar with written orders being received by Sea Org members that is originated with the intention of David Miscavige? A. I would have to speculate on that. I'm -- if -if there are things originating from Religious Technology Center, it would be -- it would speak to the orthodoxy of the religion or to comport with Mr. Hubbard's policies or writings. And they wouldn't even have to be an order because the whole reason you're a part of the Church of Scientology is you agree with the things that Mr. Hubbard writes. So you would just -Q. I'm not asking about RTC or the -A. -- go with that. Q. -- the orthodoxy of the religion. I'm talking about -- I don't want to -- to leave the deposition and we didn't have a meaningful conversation about this because of lingo. So if you don't like the lingo "COB order" or you're not familiar with that term, are you familiar, within the world of scientology, of personnel receiving written orders with which they must comply and file a compliance report that originate with David
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writings. So that's what I'm referring to when I answer am I familiar with something that could be called what you're referring to as a COB order. As I understand, it's something that is directed to implement the writings of, and ensure the correctness of, the application of Mr. Hubbard's writings. Yes, that is something I'm familiar with, and the example I just gave you would be an example of that. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're talking about. Q. So David Miscavige visits the Celebrity Centre and he decides that the carpet should be changed in the building and he has someone with him who records his comments as he goes through, has them typed up by a team of typists, and directed to the appropriate person to comply with his order. You've never heard of that? MR. STRIEBER: Objection. MR. WINGARD: Objection, form. A. I have never heard of David Miscavige ordering somebody to change the carpet. Q. (BY MR. JEFFREY) Or -- or put a mat under the urinal or change the food in the mess hall or do something -A. No. Q. -- different with the uniforms -45 (Pages 174 to 177)
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1 A. No. 2 Q. -- regardless of what corporation he's visiting? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Never heard of it? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Congratulations. 7 MR. JEFFREY: That's all I have. 8 MR. STRIEBER: Sidebar. Objection. 9 MR. JEFFERSON: That's it. Thank you very 10 much. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:38. We're 12 off the record. 13 (DEPOSITION ADJOURNED) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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SIGNATURE I have read the foregoing deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct, except as noted on the previous page. ____________________________ THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS STATE OF ___________ COUNTY OF __________ Before me, _____________________, on this day personally appears THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS, known to me (or proved to me under oath or through ____________________) (description of identity card or other document) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed the same for the purposes and consideration therein expressed. Given under my hand and seal of office this _____ day of __________________, 2013.
______________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE STATE OF _________________ COMMISSION EXPIRES: __________
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CHANGES AND CORRECTIONS WITNESS NAME: THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS DEPOSITION DATE: DECEMBER 4, 2013 Reason Codes: (1) to clarify the record; (2) to conform to the facts; (3) to correct a transcription error; (4) other (please explain). PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON CODE ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________
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CAUSE NO. C-2013-1082B MONIQUE RATHBUN IN THE DISTRICT COURT Plaintiff VS. COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS DAVID MISCAVIGE, RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL, STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, AND MONTY DRAKE Defendants 207TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS DECEMBER 4, 2013 I, Shelly M. Tucker, RPR, CRR, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify to the following: That the witness, THOMAS W. "TOMMY" DAVIS, was duly sworn by the officer and that the transcript of the oral deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; That the deposition transcript was submitted on December _____, 2013 to the witness or to the attorney for the witness for examination, signature and return to me by _________________, 20__. That the amount of time used by each party at the deposition is as follows:
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MR. JEFFREY - 3 HOURS, 5 MINUTES MR. CAPPUCCIO - NO TIME USED MR. JEFFERSON - 10 MINUTES MR. STRIEBER - NO TIME USED 3 MR. HURON - NO TIME USED MR. SPENCER - NO TIME USED 4 MS. BOWEN - NO TIME USED MS. BASCON - NO TIME USED 5 MR. WINGARD - NO TIME USED 6 That pursuant to information given to the 7 deposition officer at the time said testimony was taken, 8 the following includes counsel for all parties of record: 9 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 10 RAY JEFFREY JEFFREY & MITCHELL, P.C. 11 2631 BULVERDE ROAD, SUITE 105 BULVERDE, TEXAS 78163 12 (830) 438-8935 rjeffrey@sjmlawyers.com 13 - and 14 ELLIOTT S. CAPPUCCIO 15 PULMAN CAPPUCCIO PULLEN & BENSON, LLP 2161 N.W. MILITARY HIGHWAY, SUITE 400 16 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78213 (210) 222-9494 17 ecappuccio@pulmanlaw.com 18 FOR THE DEFENDANTS DAVID MISCAVIGE AND RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER: 19 LAMONT A. JEFFERSON 20 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1200 21 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 978-7000 22 lamont.jefferson@haynesboone.com 23 24 25 2 1
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I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. Further certification requirements pursuant to Rule 203 of TRCP will be certified to after they have occurred. Certified to by me this _____ day of December, 2013. ________________________________ SHELLY M. TUCKER, RPR, CRR Texas CSR 4419 Expires 12/31/14 DepoTexas - Austin Firm Registration No. 17 805 West 10th Street, Suite 400 Austin, Texas 78701 FAX (512) 478-2782
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FOR THE DEFENDANT CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY INTERNATIONAL: LES J. STRIEBER III ISAAC J. HURON DAVIS, CEDILLO & MENDOZA, INC. 755 E. MULBERRY, SUITE 500 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78212 (210) 822-6666 lstrieber@dcmlaw.com ihuron@lawdcm.com - and -
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 FOR DAVID LUBOW: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STEPHANIE S. BASCON LAW OFFICE OF STEPHANIE S. BASCON 297 WEST SAN ANTONIO STREET NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-2940 sbascon@att.net FOR THE WITNESS: STEVE WINGARD SCOTT, DOUGLASS & MCCONNICO, LLP 600 CONGRESS AVENUE, SUITE 1500 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78701 (512) 495-6300 swingard@scottdoug.com GEORGE H. SPENCER, JR. CLEMENS & SPENCER 112 E. PECAN, SUITE 1300 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78205 (210) 227-7121 spencejr@clemens-spencer.com FOR THE DEFENDANTS STEVEN GREGORY SLOAT, ET AL.: ASHLEY BOWEN REAGAN BURRUS 401 MAIN PLAZA, SUITE 200 NEW BRAUNFELS, TEXAS 78130 (830) 625-8026 abowen@reaganburrus.com
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FURTHER CERTIFICATION PURSUANT TO RULE 203 The original deposition was/was not returned to the deposition officer on _____________________________; If returned, the attached Changes and Signature page contains any changes and the reasons therefor; If returned, the original deposition was delivered to Mr. Ray Jeffrey, Custodial Attorney; That $____________ is the deposition officer's charges to the Plaintiff for preparing the original deposition transcript and any copies of exhibits; That the deposition was delivered in accordance with Rule 203.3, and that a copy of this certificate was served on all parties shown herein and filed with the Clerk. Certified to by me this ______ day of ____________________, 2013. ________________________________ SHELLY M. TUCKER, RPR, CRR Texas CSR 4419 Expires 12/31/14 DepoTexas - Austin Firm Registration No. 17 805 West 10th Street, Suite 400 Austin, Texas 78701 FAX (512) 478-2782
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Monique Rathbun V Scientology: Motion To Reconsider

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Monique Rathbun V Scientology: Motion To Reconsider

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CAUSE NO. C2013-1082B IN THE DISTRICT COURT MONIQUE RATHBUN Plaintiff, VS.

207th JUDICIAL DISTRICT

COMAL COUNTY, TEXAS

innuendo rather than facts.

They assert that Mr. Miscavige was involved extensively in

At issue is the proposed deposition of the ecclesiastical leader of a religious

Plaintiff propounded requests for production of documents to Mr. Miscavige,

Establish that no additional jurisdictional discovery is warranted.

Allowing defendants to proceed with the hearing on their special appearance is

Electronically signed by debbie longoria (101-086-015-3924)

INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................ 2 ALLAN CARTWRIGHT Examination by Mr. Jeffrey..................... 9

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40 (Pages 154 to 157) DepoTexas www.DepoTexas.com

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41 (Pages 158 to 159) DepoTexas www.DepoTexas.com

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INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................ 2 WARREN McSHANE Examination by Mr. Jeffrey..................... 5

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