AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Repor . !

"m Amy Goodman, as we #rn o par wo o$ o#r disc#ssion wi h %raig & e'en Wi(der, a# hor o$ a new )oo*. ! "s ca((ed +)ony , !'y: Race, &(a'ery, and he Tro#)(ed -is ory o$ America"s .ni'ersi ies. ! "s an as o#nding )oo*. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Than* yo#. AMY GOODMAN: Ta(* a)o# where yo# )egan i . ! mean, yo#"re a pro$essor o$ American his ory, Pro$essor Wi(der, a M!T righ now. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah. AMY GOODMAN: 1# yo# a#gh a Wi((iams, yo# a#gh a Dar mo# h. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Mm2hmm. AMY GOODMAN: Ta(* a)o# Dar mo# h. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Dar mo# h, ac #a((y, i was one o$ he more in eres ing cases. ! s ar ed he )oo* when ! go o Dar mo# h in 3443. And as ! said, yo# *now, i was s#pposed o )e a iny (i (e ar ic(e on how )(ac* a)o(i ionis s )ecame pro$essiona(s. -ow do yo# )ecome a minis er, a doc or, a eacher, in a na ion where yo# can" go o co((ege5 And so, he A$rican Americans who oppose s(a'ery ac #a((y ha'e his )ig p#sh in o he pro$essions, )# hey ac #a((y are e6c(#ded $rom co((eges and #ni'ersi ies. And so, one o$ he hings ha in rig#ed me, and par ic#(ar(y )eca#se ! was a Dar mo# h a he ime, was he $ac ha Na i'e Americans had )een on camp#s, $or 344 years )y hen. Na i'e American s #den s had )een on camp#s $or 344 years. And ha s#gges s, in $ac , when yo# say i ha way, ha Na i'e Americans were somehow pri'i(eged, which we *now is wrong. And so i rea((y re7#ires a re hin*ing o$ he co((ege i se($, he ro(e o$ he co((ege in he co(onia( wor(d. And in many ways, ! hin* Dar mo# h was a per$ec e6amp(e o$ wha ! ended #p arg#ing in he )oo*, ha we ha'e o hin* o$ co((eges as anima e, as ac ors in he co(onia( wor(d and in he crea ion o$ he na ion ha we *now. +(ea8ar Whee(oc*, he Re'erend +(ea8ar Whee(oc*, who arri'es in -ano'er9a$ er he ge s his char er in :;<=, he arri'es se'era( mon hs (a er wi h eigh

ens(a'ed )(ac* peop(e, inc(#ding a )a)y. -e has more s(a'es han he has $ac#( y. -e has more s(a'es han ac i'e r#s ees. -e has more s(a'es9i$ yo# do an hones acco#n ing, he pro)a)(y has more s(a'es han he has s #den s. And )y ha ime, a( ho#gh he spen mos o$ his (i$e as a missionary o Na i'e Americans9and he co((ege is $o#nded, and cer ain(y i s s#ppor ers )e(ie'e ha he"s con in#ing he Na i'e American minis ry9in $ac , Na i'e American s #den s had )een re(ega ed o wha was )asica((y a grammar schoo(. And Whee(oc* was in he process o$ )#i(ding a co((ege $or whi e s #den s. And (i*e a (o o$ co((eges ha oo* money $or Na i'e American e'ange(i8a ion, a (o o$ ha money ac #a((y ends #p going o s#ppor whi e s #den s and rans$orm hem in o missionaries and minis ers. AMY GOODMAN: Now, e6p(ain ha . ! don" hin* peop(e 7#i e #nders and ha hese #ni'ersi ies wo#(d go o# o raise money. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Righ . AMY GOODMAN: And hey wo#(d raise i )y saying, >We"re ed#ca ing Na i'e Americans.> %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah. AMY GOODMAN: And i wasn" on(y Dar mo# h. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Par ic#(ar(y in he :? h cen #ry, in he decades )e$ore he American Re'o(# ion, in he 34 years )e$ore he American Re'o(# ion, he co((eges (a#nched end(ess appea(s and campaigns o +#rope, )# par ic#(ar(y o 1ri ain, in search o$ do((ars. A one poin in he )oo*, ! poin o# ha hey"re (i era((y )#mping in o each o her in 0ondon so(ici ing wea( hy donors, and o$ er #nder he c(aim ha hey were ed#ca ing Na i'e Americans. &am#e( @ohnson, he $o#nding presiden o$ Aing"s %o((ege, which is now %o(#m)ia, has a grea e6change which high(igh s his, in which he proposes ed#ca ing some !ndian chi(dren $rom he &i6 Na ions, he !ro7#ois %on$ederacy, and sends o# a (oose (e er a)o# his, and hen 7#ic*(y wi hdraws he idea )eca#se i "s B#s oo hard o do. -e"s no rea((y in eres ed in ed#ca ing !ndian chi(dren, )# he is in eres ed in ma*ing ha appea(. And 'ery o$ en he co((eges are sending am)assadors o +#rope, in par ic#(ar, #nder he c(aim ha hey"(( )e e'ange(i8ing !ndians. Tha )egins rea((y in he ear(y :; h cen #ry wi h he 'ery $irs o$ he 1ri ish co((eges, -ar'ard.

AMY GOODMAN: Wha happened a -ar'ard5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: We((, he sending o$$ appea(s o +ng(and c(aiming o and championing he e'ange(i8a ion o$ Na i'e Americans. !n :<C=, he New +ng(and %ompany is es a)(ished, and i "s a missionary corpora ion, which ac #a((y )ecomes a mode( $or (a er missionary corpora ions (i*e he &ocie y $or he Propaga ion o$ he Gospe( in Doreign Par s. 1# hro#gho# he :; h cen #ry, one o$ he con in#ing hemes o$ -ar'ard9 he char er has changed o inc(#de Na i'e American ed#ca ion as par o$ he mission. The $irs )ric* )#i(ding on -ar'ard Yard is he !ndian %o((ege. And !22 AMY GOODMAN: The $irs )#i(ding in -ar'ard Yard22 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: The $irs )ric* )#i(ding9 he $irs )ric* )#i(ding is ac #a((y he !ndian %o((ege. And ! poin o# in he )oo* ha , yo# *now, yo# can raise money hand o'er $is in +#rope $or !ndian e'ange(i8a ion. And hese s ories o$ radica( %hris ians rans$orming na i'e peop(e in o re(igio#s per$ec ionis s, in o mode(s o$ %hris ian 'ir #e, are ac #a((y, yo# *now, B#s )eing ea en #p in +#rope. AMY GOODMAN: Why in +#rope5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: We((, ! hin* in par )eca#se here"s a rea( #se o$ Na i'e Americans in9 here"s a way in which Na i'e Americans ha'e now cap #red he +#ropean mind: e6o ic peop(e o$ a di$$eren co(or and *ind who )o h perp(e6 and in rig#e +#ropeans. And so yo# ge a (o o$ con'ersa ion a)o# he origins o$ na i'e peop(e, where hey come $rom, how yo# e6p(ain hem. Yo# *now, here"s a remendo#s a emp o reconci(e heir e6is ence in he Americas wi h )i)(ica( narra i'e, and hen o missioni8e hem. AMY GOODMAN: And hese peop(e, who are presiden s o$ hese #ni'ersi ies, $rom Dar mo# h o -ar'ard, are minis ers. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, hey"re minis ers, and hey"re o$ en missionaries. AMY GOODMAN: And hey ha'e s(a'es.

%RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And hey o$ en ha'e s(a'es, and hey"re9 hey"'e o$ en )een !ndian missionaries. &o Whee(oc* has spen m#ch o$ his22 AMY GOODMAN: The $irs presiden o$ Dar mo# h. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: The $irs presiden o$ Dar mo# h has spen m#ch o$ his (i$e as an !ndian missionary. 1# he"s a(so r#n a side )#siness )#ying and se((ing peop(e $or (a)or, so ha ens(a'ed )(ac* peop(e ha'e )een par o$ his (i$e"s wor* $rom his ear(ies years. AMY GOODMAN: -ow did yo# $ee( a)o# his, %raig & e'en Wi(der, a Dar mo# h yo#rse($ eaching, doing his research5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! "s an9i "s aw*ward. Yo# *now, ! hin*9yo# *now, when yo# hin* a)o# he way ha Ms. 1rowne was a(*ing a)o# Traces o$ he Trade, his s(ow, #ncom$or a)(e rea(i8a ion ha yo#"re par o$ his wor(d wi h his 'ery )road, deep, pain$#( his ory is, o say he 'ery (eas , aw*ward. ! was9i a(so )ecame an in e((ec #a( cha((enge $or me: -ow do ! e(( ha s ory5 And how do ! ge ha s ory o an a#dience and ge hem o #nders and i s meaning, wha i means $or #s oday and wha i mean $or #s hen5 And so, ! hin*, in some ways, as a his orian i "s pro)a)(y easier o dea( wi h ha rea(i8a ion, )eca#se we ha'e he oo(s $or hen wres (ing wi h i . AMY GOODMAN: Did hey e'er ry o ge yo# o s op e((ing his s ory5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: No, no. Ac #a((y hey didn" . And ! ha'e o gi'e e'eryone a (o o$ credi . Yo# *now, one o$ he grea hings ha happened is, yo# *now, ear(y in my career a Dar mo# h ! ga'e a a(* on a par o$ he )oo* ha 9wha "s now a sma(( par o$ he )oo*, yo# *now, and he presiden o$ Dar mo# h a he ime, @im Wrigh , was si ing in he $ron row o$ ha a(* and ga'e me a grea handsha*e and a h#g a$ erwards. And, yo# *now, ! o$ en e(( he s ory o$ going in o archi'es o do he research $or his )oo*, $rom he %aro(inas and /irginia o eas ern %anada and &co (and. And when ! $irs s ar ed, ! was somewha ca# io#s a)o# wha ! wo#(d say, yo# *now, when hey as* yo# on hose $orms, >Wha are yo# s #dying5> And so, ! wo#(d say 'ag#e hings (i*e :? h cen #ry ed#ca ion or co(onia( schoo(s. And as he archi'is s and (i)rarians sor o$9as ! go o *now hem and hey $o#nd o#

more a)o# wha ! was doing, one o$ he rea((y wonder$#( hings ha happened is no on(y were hey 7#i e s#ppor i'e o$ he proBec , )# hey o$ en in $ac in rod#ced me o and )ro#gh me ma eria( ha ! wo#(d ne'er ha'e *nown was in he archi'es. &ome imes hey sor o$ s(ipped i o me across he a)(e as i$ hey were doing some hing wrong, )# hey22 AMY GOODMAN: Wha were22 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: 9were a(ways s#ppor i'e. They were a(ways warm. AMY GOODMAN: Wha were some o$ yo#r grea disco'eries here5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! hin*, yo# *now, he presiden s who owned s(a'es, wha happened o hose ens(a'ed peop(e d#ring heir (i'es. Yo# *now, a Wi((iam , Mary, one o$ he ear(y $o#nders ac #a((y ends #p *i((ing a chi(d. AMY GOODMAN: +6p(ain ha s ory. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: -e orders22 AMY GOODMAN: Who was i 5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! "s Re'erend Grey, and he orders a chi(d o )e )ea en. And he chi(d is )ea en so se'ere(y ha he (a er dies. The9his parish ac #a((y )asica((y pays him in o)acco o (ea'e. And ha was one o$ he sor o$ rea((y 7#i e di$$ic#( momen s in wri ing he )oo*, )eca#se here"s a way o e(( ha s ory, )# i "s a di$$ic#( s ory o e((. And here"s some hing o )e *nown a)o# he na #re o$ co((eges in here, he na #re o$ he co(onia( wor(d in here. AMY GOODMAN: Wha do yo# mean here"s a way o e(( ha s ory5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: We((, ! hin* here"s a way o e(( ha , meaning ha , yo# *now, he 9par o$ my Bo) as a his orian is o ma*e ha s ory a'ai(a)(e o peop(e, o e6p(ain i , and o (e hem #nders and how ha momen comes in o )eing. And i "s one o$ many in which chi(dren ac #a((y p(ay a ro(e in he )oo*, )eca#se one o$ he pa erns ha ! had no iced as ! was doing his

research o'er years was B#s he n#m)er o$ chi(dren who were owned )y co((ege presiden s re7#ired some *ind o$ e6p(ana ion, when yo# rea((y hin* a)o# how many o$ hem had made speci$ic re7#es s $or chi(dren. AMY GOODMAN: Go hro#gh hem. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And so ! end #p9we((, (e 9yo# *now, (e "s hin* o$ some. +8ra & i(es, who"s he presiden o$ Ya(e d#ring he American Re'o(# ion, ear(ier, as a Newpor minis er, p#rchases a chi(d, a )oy, named Newpor , in Newpor , Rhode !s(and. -e"s a Rhode !s(and minis er )e$ore he )ecomes presiden o$ Ya(e. And hen he emancipa es Newpor on he day )e$ore he )ecomes presiden o$ Ya(e, )e$ore he en ers he presiden "s ho#se. @ona han +dwards p#rchases a gir(9! )e(ie'e he names her /en#s9in Rhode !s(and. AMY GOODMAN: And @ona han +dwards is5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: !s9)ecomes he presiden o$ Prince on. -e is ear(ier an !ndian missionary in %onnec ic# , a ra her $an as ic career as an e'ange(ica( minis er and one o$ he (eading e'ange(ica(s o$ he :? h cen #ry, pro)a)(y mos $amo#s $or he $o#nding e'ange(ica( sermon, as i "s o$ en ca((ed, >&inners in he -ands o$ an Angry God.> +dwards p#rchases a gir(. The9a Dar mo# h, Whee(oc* owns chi(dren. The r#s ees a -ar'ard are ac #a((y demanding chi(dren. !ncrease Ma her ge s a )oy when he"s presiden o$ -ar'ard. And ! needed o e6p(ain his phenomenon, and so one o$ he hings ! (oo*ed a was ! rea((y ried o e6amine he his ory aro#nd ha decision2ma*ing process. And in he )oo*, ! poin o# ha i has a (o o do wi h he rising $ear o$ s(a'e re'o( s in he :? h cen #ry co(onies and he )e(ie$ ha chi(dren wo#(d )e more easi(y socia(i8ed in o s(a'ery and (ess (i*e(y o re'o( . And so yo# end #p wi h hese e6 raordinari(y descrip i'e re7#es s $or s(a'es, he a)sen ee p(an ers o$ he Wes !ndies who are (i'ing #p in Massach#se s wri ing )ac* o heir o'erseers wi h 'ery e6ac descrip ions o$ he age, gender and ype o$ persona(i y ha hey wan in a s(a'e. Yo# *now, one wri es ha >! (os my )oy,> meaning he died, >and ! wan o rep(ace him wi h ano her.> And here$ore yo# a(so end #p wi h a s(a'e rade, an A (an ic s(a'e rade, which dea(s in h#man )eings, )# a)o# 34 percen o$ whom are chi(dren.

And ! e6p(ore one o$ hose 'oyages in he )oo*, in which do8ens o$ chi(dren, some as yo#ng as wo and hree years o(d, are )eing he(d cap i'e on )oard and die d#ring he Bo#rney. And ha "s a 0i'ings on in'es men , he 0i'ings ons who go on o )ecome he $#nders o$ he $irs pro$essorship, endowed pro$essorship, a Ya(e, $o#nders o$ %o(#m)ia and r#s ees a Prince on and a R# gers. AMY GOODMAN: R# gers, yo# ha'en" a(*ed m#ch a)o# . %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, yeah. AMY GOODMAN: Te(( #s a (i (e a)o# R# gers. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yo# *now, he9i "s a $ascina ing ins i # ion $or a (o o$ reasons. And he origina( E#een"s %o((ege, which is a D# ch Re$ormed co((ege, he D# ch co(onis s are es a)(ishing heir own ins i # ion, and i "s, as we a(( *now, rea((y 7#i e c(ose o he %o((ege o$ New @ersey, Prince on, and Prince on is origina((y $o#nded in he eas ern par o$ he s a e o'er )y Newar* and hen dri$ s o'er, and he go'ernor, Go'ernor 1e(cher, ac #a((y he(ps i e'en #a((y se (e in Prince on, New @ersey. And9)# , in $ac , ac #a((y, one o$ he hings ha happened is here"s a (o o$ press#re $rom he %o((ege o$ New @ersey, $rom Prince on, $or he E#een"s %o((ege, R# gers, o ac #a((y $o(d in. 1# , in $ac , he denomina iona( a((egiances are oo s rong $or ha , so he Pres)y erians remain a New @ersey, Prince on, and he D# ch Re$ormed a R# gers. One o$ heir ear(ies presiden s, F@aco)G -arden)ergh, he Re'erend -arden)ergh a E#een"s %o((ege, manages o p#rchase s(a'es despi e he $ac ha he co((ege is doing 7#i e poor(y. Yo# *now, E#een"s is so $inancia((y s rapped ha i c(oses m#( ip(e imes in i s ear(y his ory, and $or (ong periods. 1# on he e'e o$ one o$ i s $irs c(os#res, when i B#s has o sh# down and s op opera ions, Re'erend -arden)ergh manages o )#y a second s(a'e $or his ho#seho(d. And wha does ha e(( #s a)o# co((eges in he :? h cen #ry5 One o$ he hings ha i sho#(d remind #s is ha co((eges s#r'i'ed on he margins in he :? h cen #ry. Yo# *now, hey were cons an (y see*ing so#rces o$ $#nding. And he mos o)'io#s and immedia e so#rces o$ $#nding were he rising wea( hy raders o$ he )ig por ci ies, domina ed )y he s(a'e raders, and hen he p(an ers o$ he &o# h and he Wes !ndies who had )o h cash and chi(dren )# 'ery $ew schoo(s. As one his orian o$ he 1ri ish Wes !ndies p# s i 'ery nice(y, he 1ri ish Wes !ndies ac #a((y didn"

need co((eges )eca#se o$ main(and Nor h America. And here are 'ery $ew ins i # ions o$ higher ed#ca ion, or e'en secondary ed#ca ion, es a)(ished in he Wes !ndies d#ring he co(onia( period, )eca#se hose p(an ers co#(d sen heir sons o +#rope or o Nor h America, he main(and. AMY GOODMAN: And how does he %i'i( War p(ay in o his5 1eca#se yo# ha'e a(( hese Nor herners who owned s(a'es, )# hey no on(y owned s(a'es, hey r#n ins i # ions ha B#s i$y s(a'ery. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: &#re. AMY GOODMAN: ! rea((y cha((enges he who(e no ion o$ he %i'i( War9 he Nor h agains , he &o# h $or, and so yo# $igh o'er he e'i( o$ s(a'ery. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And ! arg#e in he )oo* ha one o$ he hings ha Nor herners con ri)# e o he9Nor hern in e((ec #a(s con ri)# e in he decades )e$ore he war is he a emp o es a)(ish a common gro#nd )e ween he Nor h and &o# h, an in e((ec #a( so(# ion o he crisis o'er s(a'ery as ha crisis )oi(s #p. And hey ac #a((y manage o c(aim a new p#)(ic posi ion in his ro(e. ! arg#e in he )oo* ha ac #a((y wha a((ows he co((ege o )ecome9 he #ni'ersi y o )ecome wha we *now oday, an independen , in$(#en ia( ac or in p#)(ic a$$airs, ra her han an o$$shoo o$ ch#rches, which is wha hey are in he co(onia( period, righ 9wha a((ows hem o )rea* $ree o$ he ch#rch and es a)(ish hemse('es and heir own pres ige in he p#)(ic arena is he a)i(i y o ar ic#(a e a new 'ision o$ he .ni ed & a es, a new $# #re $or he .ni ed & a es. 1# i "s premised on racia( science. ! "s premised #pon a c(aim ha academics, in e((ec #a(s, can ma*e a )e er, more in$ormed, r#er arg#men a)o# he $# #re o$ he na ion and he 7#es ion o$ s(a'ery. And hey #se race science o ma*e ha c(aim. And so, in he $ina( chap er o$ he )oo*, ! (oo* a he o'errepresen a ion o$ academics, o$ co((ege pro$essors and co((ege presiden s, in racia( c(eansing mo'emen s. AMY GOODMAN: 0i*e5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: 0i*e he American %o(oni8a ion &ocie y, which is es a)(ished in :?:;, origina((y wi h he aim o$ remo'ing $ree )(ac* peop(e $rom he .ni ed & a es o some p(ace o# side o$ Nor h America. !n :?33, he 0i)eria co(ony is es a)(ished and named.

AMY GOODMAN: Yo# mean he co#n ry in A$rica, 0i)eria22 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Righ , 0i)eria. AMY GOODMAN: 9where22 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Where $ree )(ac* peop(e are o )e ranspor ed o. And hey"re a(so o'errepresen ed in he de)a es a)o# !ndian remo'a( in he &o# h. And hey"re o'errepresen ed, ! poin o# in he )oo*, in de)a es a)o# and he process o$ es a)(ishing missions o con'er @ews (i'ing in he .ni ed & a es or $#nd heir remo'a( $rom he .ni ed & a es. And when yo# p# i a(( oge her, wha yo# end #p wi h is his e6 raordinary 'ision o$ he .ni ed & a es as a whi e %hris ian socie y, racia((y c(eansed and racia((y p#ri$ied. 1# wha ha ac #a((y means is race )ecomes he common gro#nd )e ween Nor h and &o# h. Academics, and Nor hern academics in par ic#(ar, )egin o ar ic#(a e a 'ision $or he $# #re o$ he .ni ed & a es as a racia((y p#ri$ied socie y, where s(a'ery co#(d con in#e o e6is as (ong as i was con ained and as (ong as i ser'ed he in eres o$ he whi e &o# h. 1# he goa( o$ he na ion, he $# #re o$ he na ion, he 'ision o$ he na ion, wo#(d )e a whi e %hris ian socie y. AMY GOODMAN: Pro$essor Wi(der, yo# men ion a*ing $ree )(ac* peop(e and mo'ing hem e(sewhere, ei her o A$rica or here in his co#n ry. There is a $i(m ha has B#s opened ca((ed :3 Years a &(a'e a)o# a $ree )(ac* man in9in New Yor* who is *idnapped and sen so# h, where he remains a s(a'e $or :3 years. ! B#s wan ed o p(ay a rai(er o$ ha $i(m. &O0OMON NORT-.P: Fp(ayed )y %hiwe e( +Bio$orG ! was )orn a $ree man, (i'ed wi h my $ami(y in New Yor*22 1e good $or yo#r mo her. 9#n i( he day ! was decei'ed22 .N!D+NT!D!+D: To &o(omon. &O0OMON NORT-.P: 9*idnapped, so(d in o s(a'ery.

HWe((, )oy, how yo# $ee( now5 &O0OMON NORT-.P: My name is &o(omon Nor h#p. !"m a $ree man. And yo# ha'e no righ wha soe'er o de ain me. DR++MAN: Fp(ayed )y Pa#( Giama iG Yo#"re no $ree man. Yo#"re no hing )# a Georgia r#naway. +DW!N +PP&: Fp(ayed )y Michae( Dass)enderG And ha ser'an ha don" o)ey his (ord sha(( )e )ea en wi h many s ri*es. Tha "s scrip #re. 1A&&: Fp(ayed )y 1rad Pi G The condi ion o$ yo#r (a)orers, i "s a(( wrong. +DW!N +PP&: They"re my proper y. 1A&&: Yo# say ha wi h pride. +DW!N +PP&: ! say i as $ac . &pea*! Man does how he p(eases wi h his proper y. Yo# come here. &O0OMON NORT-.P: Mr. +pps, !22 +DW!N +PP&: ! said come here! &O0OMON NORT-.P: Days ago, ! was wi h my $ami(y, in my home. Now yo# e(( me a(( is (os . %0+M+N&: Fp(ayed )y %hris %ha(*G !$ yo# wan o s#r'i'e, do and say as (i (e as possi)(e. &O0OMON NORT-.P: We((, ! don" wan o s#r'i'e. ! wan o (i'e.

AMY GOODMAN: A par o$ he rai(er o$ :3 Years a &(a'e, direc ed )y & e'e McE#een, ano her & e'e McE#een, )(ac* 1ri ish direc or, a remar*a)(e $i(m. Pro$essor %raig & e'en Wi(der, his was a )(ac* man, $ree in New Yor*, who was )ro#gh down o he &o# h, *idnapped. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And yo# ha'e, yeah, his9in his period, an e6 raordinary, as many scho(ars ha'e wri en a)o# , coopera ion )e ween he ins i # iona( and po(i ica( in$ras r#c #re o$ New Yor* and he Nor hern s a es and he s(a'e economies and s(a'e socie ies o$ he &o# h9yo# *now, e6 raordinari(y sympa he ic co#r s, (oca( po(icing agencies ha are aggressi'e(y an i2)(ac* and pro2s(a'ery in heir mindse and o# (oo*9and hen wha ! wo#(d descri)e as a mora( and in e((ec #a( c#( #re ha is searching $or de$enses o$ s(a'ery and in e((ec #a( and mora( compromise )e ween he in eres s o$ he Nor h and he in eres s o$ he &o# h, which o$ en means, in $ac , e6posing )(ac* peop(e. AMY GOODMAN: One image yo# ha'e in he )oo* is $rom :?3<. ! "s a $(ier, and i "s Washing on %o((ege, now Washing on and 0ee, ad'er ising, 7#o e, >Negroes Dor -ire.> ! says, >Twen y 0i*e(y Negroes )e(onging o WA&-!NGTON %O00+G+, consis ing o$ Men, Women, 1oys and Gir(s, many o$ hem 'ery 'a(#a)(e,> wi(( )e hired o# $or he year. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: This is one o$ he ins i # ions9and here are many o$ hem9 ha owned s(a'es, owned s(a'es and #sed heir (a)or o r#n he camp#s, o a*e care o$ he $ac#( y and he s #den s, and hen in9as he seasona( demand $or ens(a'ed peop(e changed, $#r her pro$i ed o$$ o$ hem )y (easing hem o# and (easing o# e6 ra (a)orers. We can hin* a)o# his in a n#m)er o$ ways. Washing on and 0ee, Wi((iam , Mary in /irginia, in a sing(e year a one poin in i s ear(y his ory, p#rchased :; peop(e $or he camp#s. The .ni'ersi y o$ Nor h %aro(ina 9and hen in he Nor h, yo# ha'e some hing simi(ar. +(ea8ar Whee(oc*, he $o#nder o$ Dar mo# h, as ! said, yo# *now, shows #p wi h eigh ens(a'ed peop(e, and so ha ens(a'ed peop(e are he9in some ways, he maBori y pop#(a ion on he ro#gh ear(y camp#s o$ Dar mo# h %o((ege. And $or a (o o$ peop(e doing his *ind o$ wor*, s #dying he re(a ionship )e ween co((eges and #ni'ersi ies, ! hin* here"s )een his (oo* $or he sor o$ smo*ing g#n. And he smo*ing g#n is a(ways9i seems o me o )e, wha hey"re (oo*ing $or is whe her or no he ins i # ion owned s(a'es. We((, (o s o$ hem do. 1# when heir presiden s do, hey e$$ec i'e(y do. And when he9 when he pro$essors own s(a'es, he ins i # ion e$$ec i'e(y owns s(a'es.

AMY GOODMAN: And he s #den s5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And he s #den s )ring s(a'es o camp#s. Yo# *now, George Washing on"s son, @ac*y %#s is, his s epson, Washing on ni6es he idea o$ sending him o Wi((iam , Mary )eca#se22 AMY GOODMAN: Washing on himse($ didn" go o co((ege. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, righ , he didn" go o co((ege. And Genera( Washing on doesn" wan o send @ac*y o Wi((iam , Mary )eca#se @ac*y a(ready has )ad ha)i s, and he hin*s his ha)i s wi(( ge worse among he sons o$ he e(i e p(an ers in /irginia. And so, he )rings him #p o New Yor* and enro((s him a Aing"s %o((ege, wha "s now %o(#m)ia. And %o(#m)ia is g(ad o ha'e him, in par )eca#se his crea es ano her en rance o he wea( hy p(an ers o$ he &o# h and a new way o$ ma*ing new ies wi h a new gro#p o$ s #den s and po en ia( donors and enro((men s. 1# wha "s $ascina ing is ha , yo# *now, Washing on shows #p in New Yor* wi h his s epson and his s epson"s s(a'e @oe. @oe ac #a((y a(so comes o camp#s. And he presiden o$ %o(#m)ia a he ime, My(es %ooper, o# $i s @ac*y wi h a s#i e o$ rooms ha hen he has9 ha @ac*y has pain ed and readied $or himse($, and @oe is )asica((y occ#pying wha "s )asica((y a (arge c(ose in one o$ he rooms. Tha "s no #n#s#a(. Yo# *now, a Wi((iam , Mary, pro)a)(y a)o# :4 percen o$ he s #den s in he :;<4s )ro#gh s(a'es wi h hem o camp#s. And here are e6amp(es9yo# *now, here are o her e6amp(es peop(e are ac #a((y (oo*ing a righ now, o her scho(ars, o$ hese same phenomena, Nor h and &o# h. AMY GOODMAN: Yo# are a pro$essor a he Massach#se s !ns i # e o$ Techno(ogy in Massach#se s, in %am)ridge. Wha "s M!T"s his ory5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: M!T is ac #a((y9yo# *now, $or me, here"s a $ascina ing gro#p o$ schoo(s ha are $o#nded in he := h cen #ry, he echnica( and engineering co((eges. And we rea((y )egin $o#nding hem pro)a)(y in he :?34s, and here"s a9 he n#m)er increases )y he :?C4s and :?I4s.

1# one o$ he in eres ing hings ha happens a M!T is he $o#nder, Wi((iam 1ar on Rogers, ge s his ed#ca ion in /irginia. -is $a her is ac #a((y a pro$essor o$ chemis ry a Wi((iam , Mary. And hey mo'e in o 1ra$$er on -a((. And why ha "s impor an is ha 1ra$$er on -a((, i$ yo#"'e e'er )een o Wi((iam , Mary, he $amo#s )#i(ding is he Wren 1#i(ding righ a he sor o$ cen er o$ he camp#s. On one side o$ i is he presiden "s ho#se, and here"s a )#i(ding ha mirrors i on he o her side, 1ra$$er on -a((, which is he origina( !ndian %o((ege. Tha was where he Na i'e Americans were ed#ca ed in he (a e par o$ he :; h cen #ry and m#ch o$ he :? h cen #ry. 1y he ime Wi((iam 1ar on Rogers ge s here, he Na i'e Americans are gone, and 1ra$$er on is )eing #sed o ho#se his $ami(y, and par ic#(ar(y his $a her. 1ra$$er on has i s own assignmen o$ s(a'es. There are r#(es se o# $or he s(a'es o$ 1ra$$er on -a((. And so, Wi((iam 1ar on Rogers ge s his ed#ca ion a Wi((iam , Mary, comes o$ age a Wi((iam , Mary, and hen rep(aces his $a her on he $ac#( y a Wi((iam , Mary, has a (ong career a he .ni'ersi y o$ /irginia, where he"s dean o$ he $ac#( y, and e'en #a((y (ea'es in he :?I4s $or Massach#se s, where he has an idea o$ es a)(ishing a echnica( schoo(, an engineering schoo(. And par o$ he reason why hese schoo(s are )eing es a)(ished in his period is he grea co on man#$ac #rers. Yo# *now, he s(a'e2grown co on o$ he &o# h is ranspor ed o he Nor h, and he co on e6 i(e man#$ac #rers need s*i((ed engineers o he(p )#i(d hese man#$ac #ring owns. And i "s he dear h o$ s*i((ed engineers ha (eads hem o )egin hrowing money a p(aces (i*e he 0awrence &choo( o$ +ngineering a -ar'ard and M!T, where, yo# *now, one o$ he mem)ers o$ one o$ he grea co on2man#$ac #ring $ami(ies is ac #a((y Wi((iam 1ar on Rogers"9)asica((y his 'ice presiden a he $o#nding o$ he ins i # ion. AMY GOODMAN: Two days a$ er he iss#ance o$ he schoo("s char er a M!T, he %i'i( War )rea*s o# 5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Mm2hmm, yeah. AMY GOODMAN: -ow does ha $i in5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: We((, ! hin* i $i s in a (o o$ ways, ac #a((y. Yo# *now, he9in many ways, !9a he end o$ he )oo*, wha !"m (oo*ing a is sor o$ he con in#ed re(a ionship )e ween Nor hern co((eges and #ni'ersi ies9(arge(y Nor hern co((eges and #ni'ersi ies9and s(a'ery, he economies o$ s(a'ery. And he war is )o h a crisis $or he na ion, )# i "s a(so a crisis

on camp#s, (ong )e$ore i )rea*s o# . There is a9 here are deep di'isions in he Nor h a)o# he re(a ionship )e ween he $# #re o$ he Nor hern s a es and in re(a ion o s(a'ery. Those are di'isions ha ac #a((y (ead o an e6 raordinary rans$orma ion in he .ni ed & a es. !n he &o# h a he .ni'ersi y o$ Nor h %aro(ina and a many &o# hern schoo(s in he ear(y par o$ he := h cen #ry, s(a'ery was open(y de)a ed, in he $ra erni y ho#ses and9yo# *now, a Nor h %aro(ina, an an i2s(a'ery spea*er is in'i ed o gi'e he grad#a ion speech, and he r#s ees hen p#)(ish i and *eep i in circ#(a ion $or years. Wha happens a$ er he22 AMY GOODMAN: And ye , he .ni'ersi y o$ Nor h %aro(ina9 a(* a)o# i s his ory. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Righ . And, yo# *now, i "s $o#nded )y s(a'e owners and p(an ers. ! s (arges (and dona ions are ac #a((y coming $rom p(an ers. The, yo# *now22 AMY GOODMAN: Meaning5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: 9ens(a'ed peop(e are ac #a((y )eing #sed o )#i(d he co((ege. There"s a sor o$ $an as ic Masonic ceremony a he9a heir s one (aying, he $irs s one (aying a he schoo(. AMY GOODMAN: And when yo# say >p(an ers,> yo# mean p(an a ion owners, s(a'e owners. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, p(an a ion owners and s(a'e owners, righ . And hey9yo# *now, and once he $an as ic Masonic ceremony is o'er, a(( he rega(ia and parapherna(ia is gone, and he s(a'es are )ro#gh in o )#i( he schoo(9 o )#i(d he schoo(, m#ch (i*e a he .ni'ersi y o$ /irginia, where ens(a'ed peop(e were raising he )#i(dings o$ Thomas @e$$erson"s grea in e((ec #a( mon#men . And so, par o$ wha ! wan ed o (oo* a was ha rans$orma ion, wha happened in hese schoo(s o ma*e s(a'ery a 7#es ion ha co#(dn" )e de)a ed on &o# hern camp#ses, and o ma*e i increasing(y di$$ic#( o de)a e on Nor hern camp#ses. Yo# *now, ! poin o# in he )oo* ha in :?JI a Amhers in Massach#se s, yo# *now, a he commencemen ceremonies, a s #den $rom Tennessee a*es a c(#) and )egins )(#dgeoning a s #den $rom New -ampshire o'er he 7#es ion o$ s(a'ery. Yo# *now, his is no a di'ision ha "s p#re(y Nor h2&o# h. &o# herners were a maBor presence on Nor hern camp#ses, and hey had )een $or, yo# *now, wo cen #ries )y ha ime.

AMY GOODMAN: Wha a)o# a schoo( (i*e O)er(in, which is *nown as one o$ he s ops on he .ndergro#nd Rai(road5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Righ , righ . There"s9yo# *now, one o$ he hings ha "s happening is here"s an a emp o ins i # iona(i8e an i2s(a'ery $rom he :?J4s on. And yo# can see his in a n#m)er o$ p(aces. The ins i # iona(i8a ion o$ an i2s(a'ery comes in hings (i*e The 0i)era or, Garrison"s0i)era or, )(ac* newspapers (i*e Dreedom"s @o#rna( in :?3;. 1# i "s a(so in he a emp o )#i(d schoo(s. A)o(i ionis s, )(ac* and whi e, had ac #a((y wor*ed oge her $rom as ear(y as :?J: o ry and )#i(d an an i2s(a'ery co((ege. The origina( idea was ac #a((y o )#i(d a co((ege $or )(ac* Americans, since hey were e6c(#ded $rom a(( hese o her schoo(s. And Ar h#r Tappan, he wea( hy New Yor* merchan and %onnec ic# residen , ac #a((y he(ps Garrison and a gro#p o$ )(ac* a)o(i ionis s $rom New Yor* %i y )egin o imp(emen a p(an o )#i(d he $irs )(ac* co((ege in :?J: in New -a'en, %onnec ic# . ! was s#pposed o )e righ near Ya(e. Tappan wen as $ar as o p#rchase he (and $or he schoo(. The whi e a)o(i ionis s had promised K:4,444, and he )(ac* a)o(i ionis s were going o ma ch he K:4,444. They se #p a reg#(a ory )ody $or he schoo(, in which he )(ac* a)o(i ionis s wo#(d )e he maBori y o$ he r#s ees, )# here wo#(d )e $#(( par icipa ion $rom e'eryone. And wha happens is here"s a conspiracy agains he schoo(. And ! arg#e in a di$$eren piece ha he conspiracy is ac #a((y (ed )y he presiden o$ Ya(e, Ya(e"s a(#mni and r#s ees, )eca#se hey $ear compe ing wi h his new a)o(i ionis schoo( $or $#nds $rom he e6 raordinari(y genero#s e'ange(ica( donors, who are he maBor s#ppor ers o$ Ya(e and, in $ac , $#((y in'es ed in his new )(ac* ins i # ion. And Tappan is he per$ec e6amp(e. A he ime ha his is happening, Tappan is Ya(e"s (arges and mos genero#s (i'ing donor. 1# his a en ion has now shi$ ed o his new )(ac* ins i # ion. And so, he $irs )(ac* co((ege is de(ayed )y a good 7#ar er o$ a cen #ry )eca#se o$ ha e'en . AMY GOODMAN: And i ne'er ge s es a)(ished. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! ne'er ge s )#i( . ! ne'er ge s )#i( , righ . AMY GOODMAN: And ins ead, wha happened5

%RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: !ns ead, he money ha was )eing raised is9i con in#es o ge raised. And he whi e and )(ac* a)o(i ionis s re #rn o he Na iona( Negro %on'en ions, hese con'en ions ha )egin9)(ac* a)o(i ionis con'en ions ha )egin ge ing he(d in he ear(y :?J4s. They re #rn and as* $or permission o (oo* $or a new si e $or a schoo(. They hen ac #a((y $a(( #pon, in par )eca#se i "s happened in Garrison, Pr#dence %randa(("s schoo( in %an er)#ry, %onnec ic# , a yo#ng whi e woman who had #rned oward a)o(i ionism )y reading Garrison"s 0i)era or and who had admi ed a )(ac* gir( o her schoo( and hen go hrea ened )y he ownspeop(e ha i$ she didn" remo'e her, hey wo#(d r#in her schoo( and hen r#in her $ami(y"s )#siness. The a)o(i ionis s )egin o hrow heir s#ppor )ehind %randa((. And as he9i$ yo# remem)er he s ory, wha happens o %randa(( is she"s ac #a((y p# on ria(. %onnec ic# passes a (egis(a i'e ac o ma*e i i((ega( o ed#ca e )(ac* peop(e $rom o# side he s a e. &he"s ried hree imes. &he"s con'ic ed once. Tha con'ic ion is hen o'er #rned. 1# d#ring ha process, whi(e ha "s happening, he ownspeop(e hen )rea*9a mo) )rea*s in o her ho#se, des roys he ho#se and he schoo(. A$ er ha , he a)o(i ionis s shi$ heir a en ion o Noyes Academy, a new schoo( #p in New -ampshire, in %anaan, New -ampshire, which is righ ne6 o -ano'er, where Dar mo# h is. And in :?JC, he end o$ :?JC, ha schoo( opens, and i "s open o s #den s o$ a(( races and )o h genders. A)o# eigh mon hs (a er, a mo) o$ J44 peop(e )ringing do8ens and do8ens o$ o6 and horses, chains and rope, dress he )#i(ding in chains and rope, and drag i o$$ o$ i s $o#nda ions, drag i a ha($ mi(e hro#gh own and des roy he )#i(ding, and hen $ire g#ns and cannon a he ho#ses where whi e a)o(i ionis s had ac #a((y )een )oarding )(ac* s #den s. !n he co'er o$ nigh , he )(ac* s #den s are a*en o# )y $riend(y ownspeop(e and he a)o(i ionis s. And he e6perimen a es a)(ishing, ins i # iona(i8ing a)o(i ionism )y es a)(ishing an ins i # ion $or he higher ed#ca ion o$ )(ac* peop(e comes o )asica((y a 'io(en end a ha momen . A$ er ha , he on(y p(ace yo# rea((y see he con'ersa ion )eing a*en serio#s(y is in he con in#ed mee ings o$ he Na iona( Negro %on'en ions. AMY GOODMAN: Where do he his orica((y )(ac* co((eges $i in o his5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: They )egin o appear in he :?I4s. And he9(i*e many co((eges in he, yo# *now, co(onia(, ear(y na iona(, pre2%i'i( War America, he dis inc ion )e ween a high schoo( and a co((ege is o$ en hard o $ind in his period. And so, he9and so, here$ore, one o$

he hings ha a)o(i ionis s, )(ac* and whi e, had p(ayed wi h was a *ind o$ ad'anced high schoo( ha co#(d ma #re in o a co((ege. And ha was in $ac he pa h ha a (o o$ co((eges oo*. +'en ones ha we *now oday as e(i e ins i # ions ac #a((y )egan m#ch more (i*e high schoo(s han (i*e co((eges. And so, wi hin he Na iona( Negro %on'en ions, yo# ha'e his sor o$ con in#ed p#sh $or ha *ind o$ higher ed#ca ion. 1# he 'io(ence o$ he ear(y :?J4s (arge(y des roys he campaign. 1y he :?I4s, A$rican2American ch#rches and whi e missionary socie ies )egin o re2es a)(ish ins i # ions $or higher ed#ca ion, and hose ma #re in o he $irs )(ac* co((eges ha we *now oday. AMY GOODMAN: And O)er(in %o((ege5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: O)er(in ac #a((y is par o$ his radica( hr#s . And, yo# *now, i "s he radica( %onnec ic# residen s, he %onnec ic# 9 he o(d %onnec ic# residen s who22 AMY GOODMAN: 0i*e Tappan5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah9who mo'e wes . Tappan )ecomes, in $ac , a maBor donor and sponsor o$ he new ins i # ion. They es a)(ish in $ac a9wha "s )asica((y a secondary schoo( ha has a n#m)er o$ )(ac* s #den s in i , in he decades )e$ore he war. And, yo# *now, 1eriah Green"s academy in9Oneida Academy in New Yor*, simi(ar(y a radica( ins i # ion ha ac #a((y has )(ac* s #den s in i . Gerri &mi h, he a)o(i ionis , r#ns a ad'anced high schoo(, 'ery sma((, on his proper y in9! hin* ha "s Whi es)oro or Pe er)oro, New Yor*, #ps a e New Yor*. And so, here are hese a emp s, )# wha yo# )asica((y ha'e9and mos o$ hese a emp s are ac #a((y pre y shor 2(i'ed, and hey end o )e ei her o# wes 9Ohio a ha ime9or in $air(y r#ra( par s o$ New Yor* in he sor o$ origina( 1i)(e 1e( , yo# *now, he )#rned2o'er dis ric ha re(igio#s his orians a(* a)o# where e'ange(ica(ism has swep hro#gh across genera ions. And par o$ he reason $or ha is ac #a((y he ear(y :?J4s 'io(ence ma*es i 'ery c(ear ha an ins i # ion $or he ad'ancemen o$ co(ored peop(e, o$ he ed#ca ion o$ co(ored peop(e, in )ig ci ies (i*e New Yor* (i*e(y won" s#r'i'e, )# i a(so won" s#r'i'e in sma(( owns (i*e %anaan, New -ampshire. And i was precise(y he a)i(i y o$ he an i2a)o(i ionis s o reach %anaan and

des roy he schoo( ha imposes a new $ear #pon he a)o(i ionis campaign and $orces i o (oo* $or new direc ions. AMY GOODMAN: Where does Drederic* Do#g(ass $i in o his s ory5 Does he a a((5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, ac #a((y, he does. !n he9)y he :?C4s and :?I4s, in par ic#(ar, he campaign $or A$rican2American higher ed#ca ion is (arge(y re(ega ed o he Na iona( Negro %on'en ions. And i "s ac #a((y men and women (i*e Do#g(ass who *eep ha con'ersa ion going. And, yo# *now, here are di$$erences o$ opinion a)o# wha )(ac* a)o(i ionis s sho#(d )e s ri'ing $or, )# one o$ he hings ha hey a(( #nders and is ha he s r#gg(e agains s(a'ery can" s#cceed #n(ess )(ac*9$ree )(ac* peop(e can es a)(ish a we((2 ed#ca ed pro$essiona( c(ass who are capa)(e o$ $igh ing $or he righ s o$ he )roader gro#p and de$ending heir (i)er ies. AMY GOODMAN: !n :?=I, W.+.1. D# 1ois recei'es a doc ora e $rom -ar'ard, he $irs A$rican American o do so. Tha "s :?=I. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, yeah. And, righ , i "s an e6 raordinary momen . 1# hin* a)o# how (a e ha is in -ar'ard"s his ory. Yeah, when !9in he in rod#c ion o he )oo*, he ac*now(edgmen s, one o$ he hings ! poin o# is his9how incredi)(e some o$ hese dis inc ions are. And ha "s where he )oo* )egan. ! )egan wi h me B#s )eing rea((y in rig#ed )y hese dis inc ions. And !"(( B#s gi'e a co#p(e o$ e6amp(es. The $irs Na i'e American s #den o grad#a e $rom a co((ege grad#a es pro)a)(y :;4 years )e$ore he $irs )(ac* s #den , :<4, :;4 years. The $irs a emp 9 he $irs ac #a((y Na i'e American o )e ordained in he Pro es an minis ry is pro)a)(y a good :I4 years, :C4 years, )e$ore he $irs )(ac* person o )e ordained. The $irs a emp o )#i(d a co((ege $or Na i'e Americans is 3:4 years )e$ore he $irs a emp o )#i(d a )(ac* co((ege, he one we were B#s a(*ing a)o# in New -a'en. And when yo# say i ha way, as ! said )e$ore, i so#nds (i*e Na i'e Americans are pri'i(eged. !n $ac , ac #a((y, wha i rea((y spea*s o is he e6 raordinari(y aggressi'e ro(e ha he co((ege p(ays in he con7#es o$ he Americas. We ha'e o hin* o$ co((eges as imperia( ins r#men s in he co(onia( wor(d. Tha "s he ro(e ha hey had p(ayed in 1ri ain, where he crown )egins o endow and $#nd #ni'ersi ies in &co (and and !re(and, precise(y o e6 end i s in$(#ence and i s con ro( o'er hose regions, where ed#ca ion was a(ways seen as a wonder$#( piece o$ c#( #ra( weaponry

ha co#(d )e dep(oyed. And co((eges ge dep(oyed in he Americas, oo. And so, wha e6p(ains he di$$erence )e ween he re(a ionship9 he di$$erence in he re(a ionship )e ween A$rican Americans and Na i'e Americans and co((eges is precise(y he ro(e o$ he co((ege. AMY GOODMAN: Pro$essor Wi(der, yo# dedica e he )oo* o G(oria Wi(der. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah. AMY GOODMAN: !s ha yo#r mo her5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Tha "s my sis er. AMY GOODMAN: Tha "s yo#r sis er. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah. The $irs )oo* ! wro e, my mo her go . The second )oo*, my o(des sis er Terrie go . And his is my second2o(des sis er, G(oria, so she ge s his one. And now !"m done. AMY GOODMAN: %an yo# a(* a)o# 22 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! ha'e no more si)(ings, and so !"m22 AMY GOODMAN: %an yo# a(* a)o# yo#r own $ami(y5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: &#re. AMY GOODMAN: Yo# were he $irs in yo#r $ami(y o go o co((ege5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, my sis er and ! were he $irs in o#r $ami(y o go o co((ege. We"re he $irs genera ion o go o co((ege. And his is why ! hin* when ! a(* a)o# he )oo* and he mo i'a ions )ehind he )oo*, he idea ha !"m9yo# *now, ! wan o ma*e i c(ear o peop(e, !"m no a ac*ing co((eges. 1# ! hin* we ha'e an o)(iga ion, as academics and as ins i # ions o$ higher ed#ca ion, o )e as hones a)o# o#r own his ory as we are a)o# he his ory o$ he na ion, he his ory o$ ch#rches, he his ory o$ peop(e, immigra ion and processes. We ha'e as m#ch

o)(iga ion o )e hones and re'ea(ing a)o# o#rse('es. Many o$ he ins i # ions in he )oo* ! ei her wen o as a s #den or ! wor*ed a . ! (o'e hose ins i # ions. Yo# *now, %o(#m)ia here in New Yor* ga'e me a chance o go $rom )eing a9yo# *now, he son, one o$ hree chi(dren o$ a sing(e mo her raising #s )y herse($, mo'ing herse($ $rom $ood s amps and p#)(ic assis ance o a #nioni8ed ci y Bo) )y s #dying a nigh , who hen wor*ed wo Bo)s $or 34 years o gi'e #s a chance o go o co((ege and a chance o change o#r (i'es. AMY GOODMAN: Yo# grew #p in 1ed2& #y5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! grew #p in 1ed$ord2& #y'esan , 1roo*(yn. And, yo# *now, %o(#m)ia ac #a((y he(ped me rea(i8e ha 'ision, her 'ision, her goa( $or #s, and wha e'en #a((y )ecame my goa( $or myse($. And so ! ha'e no hing )# he grea es a$$ec ion $or ha ins i # ion. Yo# *now, Wi((iams ga'e me my $irs eaching Bo), and i was an e6 raordinary oppor #ni y. AMY GOODMAN: And ye , he s ory o$ Wi((iams5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: And he s ory o$ Wi((iams is in he )oo*. Yo# *now, +phraim Wi((iams, he $o#nder o$ Wi((iams, a co(one(, a mi(i ary co(one(, )e$ore he 1a (e o$ 0a*e George, yo# *now, wri es o# his wi((, and he (ea'es his s(a'es and9 o his si)(ings, and some money and (and $or he es a)(ishmen o$ a co((ege in wes ern Massach#se s. And e'en #a((y he own o$9 he own, Wi((iams own, renames i se($ Wi((iams own and ma*es a c(aim #pon ha endowmen o es a)(ish he new schoo(. -e"s *i((ed in he )a (e, so he ne'er sees he new schoo( es a)(ished. 1# , yo# *now, and here yo# ha'e, in $ac , m#( ip(e his ories crossing, )eca#se yo# ha'e he his ory o$ Wi((iams, he co((ege, yo# ha'e A$rican2American his ory, he his ory o$ %o(one( Wi((iams" s(a'es, his $ami(y, )# yo# a(so ha'e Na i'e American his ory9 he p#sh o$ whi e peop(e wes ward in o Massach#se s and he ways in which Na i'e American comm#ni ies were (i'ing in increasing(y cons ric ed spaces and )eing mo'ed o$$ (and )y )o h (ega( and e6 ra(ega( mechanisms, which %o(one( Wi((iams was hea'i(y in'o('ed in. Yo# *now, here"s wi(d spec#(a ion in ha par o$ he s a e. And a(( sor s o$ ins i # ions ge #sed o he(p ma*e hese (and c(aims. AMY GOODMAN: !n a(( o$ yo#r research, wha were yo# mos shoc*ed )y5

%RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! hin*, hones (y, he hing ha mos shoc*ed me, here are hese momen s where yo#9yo# wres (e wi h di$$ic#( 7#es ions. Yo# *now, cer ain(y when yo#"re seeing9when ! was doing he wor* on he s(a'e ship, The Wo($, which he 0i'ings ons send o# o he A$rican coas and which a*es, yo# *now22 AMY GOODMAN: And 0i'ings on is ied o Ya(e. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, 0i'ings on is ied o Ya(e, o %o(#m)ia, o Prince on and o R# gers. AMY GOODMAN: And he ship is ca((ed5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: The Wo($. AMY GOODMAN: And i is sen o5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: ! "s sen o he A$rican coas on a s(a'ing mission ha a*es )asica((y a year and a ha($, an e6 raordinari(y (ong ime. The ship has9 he cap ain has a hard ime ac #a((y p#rchasing eno#gh cap i'es o ge a $#(( comp(emen , as his s#rgeon wi(( say, and so he"s ho(ding peop(e )e(ow dec* $or mon hs as he hops )e ween hese 'ario#s por s on he A$rican coas a emp ing o p#rchase more peop(e. A (o o$ he peop(e on )oard, a (o o$ he cap i'es on )oard, are ac #a((y sma(( chi(dren. And so, yo# *now, his is a 'oyage in which he s#rgeon ac #a((y goes hro#gh9 he ship"s s#rgeon goes hro#gh a series o$ emo iona( crises himse($, which he records in his diary. 1a)ies are dying, wo and hree years o(d. -e"s doing a# opsies on hem o ry and $ig#re o# why hey"re dying. -e"s $inding, yo# *now, ha hey"re dying o$ he $(#6. They"re dying9 hey ha'e worms, some :3 inches (ong. ! "s a horri$ic a(e. The22 AMY GOODMAN: Didn" peop(e rise #p on he ship5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, here"s ac #a((y an a emp ed s(a'e re'o( on )oard )e$ore he ship depar s. More peop(e ac #a((y die on he re #rn Bo#rney across he A (an ic. And when hey arri'e )ac* in New Yor* and he 0i'ings ons p# hem #p $or sa(e, hey"'e pro)a)(y ended #p *i((ing as many peop(e as hey"'e so(d.

AMY GOODMAN: &o i was a)o# 344 peop(e, or a (i (e (ess, on )oard o )egin wi h. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, righ . AMY GOODMAN: There"s (i*e ?? or some hing (e$ . %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Yeah, and he pop#(a ion drops signi$ican (y. 1# he n#m)er o$ peop(e who are *i((ed B#s a(ong he A$rican coas is B#s as o#nding and dis #r)ing. And ! wan o remem)er, as ! sor o$, yo# *now, re e(( ha s ory in he )oo*, ha $or me ha "s pro)a)(y he hardes and mos shoc*ing hing, )# i "s shoc*ing $or a(( o$ #s. Yo# *now, i "s9!"m no ma*ing a sor o$ proprie ary c(aim #pon, yo# *now, emo iona( o# rage o ha *ind o$ his orica( e'en . And so, he hing ha pro)a)(y shoc*ed me mos was ha yo# ha'e hose momen s where yo# B#s , as a his orian, ha'e o $ind a way o e(( a gr#esome s ory, )eca#se ha s ory is necessary o #nders anding in hree dimensions his momen in ime. 1# e'en more shoc*ing was how many o$ hose s ories here are. Yo# *now, yo# can $ind a 'ersion o$ ha s ory $or e'ery co((ege ha "s es a)(ished in he co(onia( wor(d. Yo#"re p(aying )asica((y wo degrees o$ separa ion $rom some horri$ic s(a'ing 'oyage. AMY GOODMAN: !n he process, ha'e yo# raced yo#r own $ami(y"s roo s5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: No, ac #a((y, my niece and nephews and !, his is a s#mmer e'en ha we"re p(anning, now ha his is $inished. We"re ac #a((y going o ry and *eep o#r promise o head so# h o Nor h %aro(ina and &o# h %aro(ina, where my $a her"s $ami(y, mo her"s $ami(y, respec i'e(y, are $rom, and s ar racing more o$ he $ami(y his ory. We"'e done some o$ i , )# no a(( o$ i . AMY GOODMAN: Are yo# re(a ed o Go'ernor Wi(der o$ /irginia, he $irs A$rican2American go'ernor o$ /irginia5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: O#r Wi(ders, my $a her"s side o$ he $ami(y, is righ across he /irginia )order $rom his. Yo# *now, hey"re on he Nor h %aro(ina side, and he"s on he so# hern /irginia side, and so here pro)a)(y is some re(a ionship. Yo# *now, we wo#(d recogni8e him, )# he wo#(dn" recogni8e #s. And so, here"s no direc re(a ionship ha ! *now, )# ! imagine

here m#s )e. And cer ain(y, when he was go'ernor9yo# *now, )o h my sis ers (i'e in /irginia 9i was a grea ime o )e a Wi(der in /irginia, and so ! miss him. AMY GOODMAN: And D#*e .ni'ersi y, i s his ory5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: D#*e"s no in he )oo*, yo# *now, and main(y )eca#se, ac #a((y, he D#*e ha we *now is9yo# *now, a (o o$ he money ac #a((y mo'es o i in he ear(y 34 h cen #ry. And so, m#ch o$ wha crea es i as he ins i # ion we *now oday happens a$ er his )oo* is done, yeah. AMY GOODMAN: -oward .ni'ersi y5 %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: -oward .ni'ersi y is no in here, )# , yo# *now, he9 he s ory ends a he %i'i( War. And -oward and he his orica((y )(ac* co((eges ha wi(( )e es a)(ished righ a$ er he war, ! hin*, are a $ascina ing opic, )eca#se, yo# *now, no on(y do yo# ha'e some o$ he $irs ins i # ions ha are ed#ca ing A$rican Americans in (arge n#m)ers, )# yo# a(so in $ac ha'e a signi$ican Na i'e American presence on hose camp#ses d#ring heir ear(y years. And so, here are 'ersions o$ he !ndian %o((ege, a( ho#gh hey"re a (i (e more in egra ed, ha we a(*ed a)o# ear(ier. AMY GOODMAN: ! wan o han* yo# 'ery m#ch $or )eing wi h #s. %RA!G &T+/+N W!0D+R: Than* yo#. AMY GOODMAN: %raig Wi(der is a# hor o$ he new )oo*, +)ony , !'y: Race, &(a'ery, and he Tro#)(ed -is ory o$ America"s .ni'ersi ies.