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John Latham: Books For Burning
John Latham: Books For Burning
John Latham: Books For Burning
Photos of works of art by John Latham are copyright the John Latham Estate and
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JW: You began to use books to construct reliefs in 1958. What prompted this unusual
choice of material?
JL: I'd discovered a principle of structure in the atomised mark in 1954. By 1958 I
had the feeling that the black on white spray paintings had reached a point of
exhaustion. I wanted something to project from the surface, to serve as a visual
enricher. There were books lying around the studio including one with the title The
Philosophy of the Good Life. It was entirely fortuitous. I didn't know what I was
looking for until I saw it. However, the book proved to be the precise solution to
many problems.
JW: What practical problems did you encounter in attaching the books to the surface?
JL: I used canvas to key to board surfaces with household materials like Polyfilla. I
JW: And when wires loop from one concentration of books to another I presume they
JL: Mostly from Peter Eaton's, a second-hand bookseller in Holland Park Avenue.
He had bins of very cheap books outside his shop. I just delved, picking out titles or
JW: One cannot read the books in your reliefs in the normal fashion but, even so,
titles and fragments of text remain legible. Were the contents or titles relevant to the
pieces?
JL: Sometimes. If the title wasn't relevant I might obliterate it or remove the spine.
You see, I detected a consistency between the black on white of the printed pages
and the 'geometry' - the spatial relations of points - in my spray paintings, though,
of course, in the case of books, the former angular geometry becomes linear and
its genetic code. And aren't such organisms anchored in a whole event - Nature?
That's what the questioning and examination of the form was about. I was finding
JW: Could you say something about the relationship between the books and the
JL: The ground, if it is white, stands for 'no action' - the zero state of action. Art's
JL: In the beginning I wanted to concentrate on the white to the black because
1959, did the coloured pages come into it. This was a response to a film made in my
studio by Pathe News. My idea was to have an unmoving object - the book relief -
animated by changes of pages and colour. That is, a universe which provides a
stable framework but within which there are changes of state. Pathe News proved
uncooperative so I made the film myself. It's called Unclassified Material. You can
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JW: The idea of reversal occurs a good deal, inverting the word 'books' to produce
'skoob' for example. Were the book projections into actual space a reversal of the
JL: That idea wasn't very important to me. 'Time' doesn't go in reverse. I think my
interests were too far out to fit into the framework of discussions about painting,
and it is still a bit like that. I am across a corridor where there are 'facts' as distinct
JL: They do do that. Particularly in the three-point Observer series where the
JW: The Observer series (1959-60) was, I understand, a case in which there was an
JL: There was a direct equivalent. Dostoevsky's novel The Brothers Karamazov was
mental resource, intuition and self-awareness. They cover all kinds as 'prototypes'.
Alyosha, the third brother, is the intuitive one. In the reliefs, the relationship
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JW: Did The Observer series actually include copies of Dostoevsky's novel?
JW: It is obvious that you were interested in transforming books in various ways by
burning, sawing, and so on. Could you say something more about the significance of ,
these changes?
JL: One issue was the different conceptions of time in literature and sculpture.
becomes part of a relief its temporal character is negated, but, by singeing a shaped
edge, by cutting back the pages, I exposed the 'strata' making up the form of the
atemporal medium.
JW: I'm interested to hear you say that because in your Lisson show I was struck by
pieces in which layers of books appear beneath a shelf as if representing the cultural
angles from the wall. One likes a clear surface with a lot of chaos underneath!
JW: So, a kind of image of the unconscious. One early relief was a re-interpretation
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JL: At the end of World War Two, I saw some El Grecos in Rome. I found them
instantly compelling. What impressed me about the Burial was the way El Greco
had managed to solve the Renaissance problem of how to show Earth and Heaven
JL: I'm sure of it. Art is something additional to the appearances of Nature. We
make art in order to represent experiences and ideas which are not out there in the
visible world. I was looking at, constructing, an idea of structure in events. The
book reliefs became not things but a 'score' for events. Music is another example of
event structure. The works embody a relationship between the totality outside time
- the whole event of the universe past, present and future - and connect it with the
momentary, lived experience. The atomised action plus books has been able to
JW: Because books conventionally stand for literature and knowledge, your assault
on them was bound to disturb. And it also created confusion as to exactly what your
the outset I was hesitant about putting one in plaster, but I then realised that in a
relief it would become completely detached and would be more 'real' than it was
JW: In the mid-Sixties, when you began to burn towers of books, you said this was
intended to indicate that 'the cultural base was burnt out'. Could you expand on this
remark?
JL: Art is multivalent. The reading you quote is one valence. There was also, in the
front of my mind, the flagrant abuse of privilege by the arts authority which had
the beginning of the modern era the new physics and the new painting destroyed
the sense that there is no reliable standard of reference to which we can turn for
authority. The idea of authority has to depend upon a stable frame of reference. If
this has been demolished, another way of resolving social priorities has to be
devised. Wittgenstein thought his atomic propositions were the answer. I thought he
had failed, whereas James Joyce had succeeded. In Finnegan's Wake, instead of
writing a conventional story, Joyce constructed a cyclic string of images which was
dimensionally in tune with the view I have. It puts art and science into a new
perspective.
John Latham, Skoob Tower ceremony: National Encyclopedias, (September 1966).
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JW: To turn to the Destruction in Art movement of the Sixties. Did you share the CND
actuality. I first burnt skoob towers in 1964 to celebrate the tenth anniversary of the
Institute for the Study of Mental Images - it came directly from the atomised mark
JW: There was an adverse reaction to destructive art in various official quarters.
Destruction as an artistic method was surely bound to shock and to raise the spectre of
JL: Absolutely not. Some people did interpret the book burnings as anarchist
gestures but I thought the content far more richly interesting than shocking. The
knowledge. After all, one can reach a state of knowing - getting in touch with
John Latham, Still and Chew, (!966-7). Case with documentation is in the collection
JW: Still and Chew, the 1966-7 alchemical-like transformation of Greenberg's in-
fluential text Art and Culture, is perhaps your most famous demolition of a book.
This arose because of its pretentious title and the fact that your emphasis on time
JL: Yes. the event involved people chewing and spitting out pages of the book. I
didn't take up Greenberg theoretically, this would have meant being trapped by a
syntax and grammar that was a key reason he was wrong. Also, I'd been pressing St
Martin's to set up a study group to look at temporality in artwork. When this idea
was rejected I had to think of another way of getting the notion across. It then came
to be central in the shift to 'Conceptual art' in America without anyone yet noticing
Modern Art in New York is more a documentation of the event than an artwork in its
own right?
JL: Right. The real concept of structure is in the book reliefs and time-based roller
painting.
JW: In 1967 a series of events were organised at Better Books, which involved col-
laborations with Jeff Sawtell and Jeff Shaw. These were complex multi-media events. I
find the symbolism hard to follow. For example, you ran Pipes into books and pumped
foam through.
John Latham and other artists, Photo of Book Plumbing event and installation,
(April 1967). Girl with bicycle both wrapped in newsprint. Better Books, London.
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JL: Yes, book plumbing. Putting pipes through books was suggestive of acquired
habits for organising information. They were extensions of the idea that books were
JW: These events were the last use of books until your 1976 designs for book monu-
Torso and, half a mile away, The Niddrie Heart. My conception was that these
would be visible for fifty miles. People would be able to enter them, climb up and
John Latham, Study for a Bing Monument, (1976). Photo Gareth Winters.
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John Latham, Five Sisters Bing, (1976). Tate Gallery collection.
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JW: From some angles these monuments resemble the Christian cross. Is this a
JL: I don't mind it. This view is one amongst several. I accept it as real and valid,
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This interview was first published in Studio International, vol 200, no 1018, 1987,
pp. 26-9 on the occasion of a 1987 exhibition held at the Lisson Gallery, London.
John A. Walker is a painter and art historian. He is the author of John Latham -
the Incidental Person - his Art and Ideas, (London: Middlesex University Press,
1995).
See also 'The spray gun and the cosmos: John Latham's spray-gun paintings of the
1950s'. (Catalogue essay) (London: Delaye/Saltoun, Feb 2008), pp. 7-29. Plus