Octavio Paz, The Art of Poetry No.

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Interviewed by Alfred Mac Adam Share on printPRINT | Share on twitterTWITTER | Share on facebook A!E"##$ | More Sharin% Service&More |'iew a man(&cript pa%e Tho(%h &mall in &tat(re and well into hi& &eventie&) #ctavio Pa*) with hi& piercin% eye&) %ive& the impre&&ion of bein% a m(ch yo(n%er man+ In hi& poetry and hi& pro&e work&) which are both er(dite and inten&ely political) he rec(rrently take& (p &(ch theme& a& the e,perience of Me,ican hi&tory) e&pecially a& &een thro(%h it& Indian pa&t) and the overcomin% of profo(nd h(man loneline&& thro(%h erotic love+ Pa* ha& lon% been con&idered) alon% with !-&ar 'alle.o and Pablo Ner(da) to be one of the %reat So(th American poet& of the twentieth cent(ry/ three day& after thi& interview) which wa& cond(cted on !ol(mb(& 0ay 1223) he .oined Ner(da amon% the rank& of Nobel la(reate& in literat(re+ Pa* wa& born in 1214 in Me,ico !ity) the &on of a lawyer and the %rand&on of a noveli&t+ "oth fi%(re& were important to the development of the yo(n% poet5 he learned the val(e of &ocial ca(&e& from hi& father) who &erved a& co(n&el for the Me,ican revol(tionary Emiliano 6apata) and wa& introd(ced to the world of letter& by hi& %randfather+ A& a boy) Pa* wa& allowed to roam freely thro(%h hi& %randfather7& e,pan&ive library) an e,perience that afforded him inval(able e,po&(re to Spani&h and 8atin American literat(re+ 9e &t(died literat(re at the :niver&ity of Me,ico) b(t moved on before earnin% a de%ree+ At the o(tbreak of the Spani&h !ivil War) Pa* &ided immediately with the Rep(blican ca(&e and) in 12;<) left for Spain+ After hi& ret(rn to Me,icao) he helped fo(nd the literary review& Taller =>Work&hop?@ and El 9i.o PrAdi%o =>The !hild Prodi%y?@ o(t of which a new %eneration of Me,ican writer& emer%ed+ In 124; Pa* traveled e,ten&ively in the :nited State& on a B(%%enheim ellow&hip before enterin% into the Me,ican diplomatic &ervice in 124C+ rom 124D (ntil 12C1) Pa* lived in Pari&+ The writin%& of Sartre) "reton) !am(&) and other rench thinker& whom he met at that &ame time were to be an important infl(ence on hi& own work+ In the early 12C3& Pa*7& diplomatic d(tie& took him to Eapan and India) where he fir&t came into contact with the "(ddhi&t and Taoi&t cla&&ic&+ 9e ha& &aid) >More than two tho(&and year& away) We&tern poetry i& e&&ential to "(ddhi&t teachin%5 that the &elf i& an ill(&ion) a &(m of &en&ation&) tho(%ht&) and de&ire+ In #ctober 12DF Pa* re&i%ned hi& diplomatic po&t to prote&t the bloody repre&&ion of &t(dent demon&tration& in Me,ico !ity by the %overnment+ 9i& fir&t book of poem&) Sava%e Moon) appeared in 12;; when Pa* wa& nineteen year& old+ Amon% hi& mo&t hi%hly acclaimed work& are The 8abyrinth of Solit(de =12C3@) a pro&e &t(dy of the Me,ican national character) and the bookGlen%th poem S(n Stone =12C<@) called by E+ M+ !ohen >one of the la&t important poem& to be p(bli&hed in the We&tern world+? The poem ha& five h(ndred and ei%htyGfo(r line&) repre&entin% the five h(ndred and ei%htyGfo(r day cycle of the planet 'en(&+ #ther work& incl(de Ea%le or S(nH =12C3@) Alternatin% !(rrent =12CD@) The "ow and the 8yre =12CD@) "lanco =12D<@) The Monkey Brammarian =12<1@) A 0raft of Shadow& =12<C@) and A Tree Within =12C<@+

Pa* live& in Me,ico !ity with hi& wife MarieGEo&-) who i& an arti&t+ 9e ha& been he recipient of n(mero(& international pri*e& for poetry) incl(din% the International Brand Pri,) the Eer(&alem Pri*e =12<<@) the Ne(&tadt Pri*e =12FI@) the !ervante& Pri*e =12F1@) and the Novel Pri*e+ 0(rin% thi& interview) which took place in front of an overflow a(dience at the 2Ind Street JMG JW9A in New Jork) (nder the a(&pice& of the Poetry !enter) Pa* di&played the ener%y and power typical of him and of hi& poetry) which draw& (pon an eclectic &e,(al my&tici&m to brid%e the %ap between the individ(al and &ociety+ Appropriately) Pa* &eemed to welcome thi& opport(nity to comm(nicate with hi& a(dience+

INTER'IEWER #ctavio) yo( were born in 1214) a& yo( probably remember + + + #!TA'I# PA6 Not very wellK INTER'IEWER + + + virt(ally in the middle of the Me,ican Revol(tion and ri%ht on the eve of World War I+ The cent(ry yo(Lve lived thro(%h ha& been one of almo&t perpet(al war+ 0o yo( have anythin% %ood to &ay abo(t the twentieth cent(ryH PA6 Well) I have &(rvived) and I think thatL& eno(%h+ 9i&tory) yo( know) i& one thin% and o(r live& are &omethin% el&e+ #(r cent(ry ha& been terribleMone of the &adde&t in (niver&al hi&toryMb(t o(r live& have alway& been more or le&& the &ame+ Private live& are not hi&torical+ 0(rin% the rench or American revol(tion&) or d(rin% the war& between the Per&ian& and the Breek&Md(rin% any %reat) (niver&al eventMhi&tory chan%e& contin(ally+ "(t people live) work) fall in love) die) %et &ick) have friend&) moment& of ill(mination or &adne&&) and that ha& nothin% to do with hi&tory+ #r very little to do with it+ INTER'IEWER So we are both in and o(t of hi&toryH PA6 Je&) hi&tory i& o(r land&cape or &ettin% and we live thro(%h it+ "(t the real drama) the real comedy al&o) i& within (&) and I think we can &ay the &ame for &omeone of the fifth cent(ry or for &omeone of a f(t(re cent(ry+ 8ife i& not hi&torical) b(t &omethin% more like nat(re+

INTER'IEWER In The Privile%e& of Si%ht) a book abo(t yo(r relation&hip with the vi&(al art&) yo( &ay5 >Neither I nor any of my friend& had ever &een a Titian) a 'elN*O(e*) or a !-*anne+ + + + Neverthele&&) we were &(rro(nded by many work& of art+? Jo( talk there abo(t Mi,oac) where yo( lived a& a boy) and the art of early twentiethGcent(ry Me,ico+ PA6 Mi,oac i& now a rather (%ly &(b(rb of Me,ico !ity) b(t when I wa& a child it wa& a &mall villa%e+ A very old villa%e) from preG!ol(mbian time&+ The name Mi,oac come& from the %od Mi,coatl) the Nah(atl name for the Milky Way+ It al&o mean& >clo(d &erpent)? a& if the Milky Way were a &erpent of clo(d&+ We had a &mall pyramid) a dimin(tive pyramid) b(t a pyramid neverthele&&+ We al&o had a &eventeenthGcent(ry convent+ My nei%hborhood wa& called San E(an) and the pari&h ch(rch dated from the &i,teenth cent(ry) one of the olde&t in the area+ There were al&o many ei%hteenthG and nineteenthGcent(ry ho(&e&) &ome with e,ten&ive %arden&) beca(&e at the end of the nineteenth cent(ry Mi,oac wa& a &(mmer re&ort for the Me,ican bo(r%eoi&ie+ My family in fact had a &(mmer ho(&e there+ So when the revol(tion came) we were obli%ed) happily I think) to have to move there+ We were &(rro(nded by &mall memorie& of two pa&t& that remained very m(ch alive) the preG!ol(mbian and the colonial+ INTER'IEWER Jo( talk in The Privile%e& of Si%ht abo(t Mi,oacL& firework&+ PA6 I am very fond of firework&+ They were a part of my childhood+ There wa& a part of the town where the arti&an& were all ma&ter& of the %reat art of firework&+ They were famo(& all over Me,ico+ To celebrate the fea&t of the 'ir%in of B(adal(pe) other reli%io(& fe&tival&) and at New JearL&) they made the firework& for the town+ I remember how they made the ch(rch faPade look like a fiery waterfall+ It wa& marvelo(&+ Mi,oac wa& alive with a kind of life that doe&nLt e,i&t anymore in bi% citie&+ INTER'IEWER Jo( &eem no&tal%ic for Mi,oac) yet yo( are one of the few Me,ican writer& who live ri%ht in the center of Me,ico !ity+ Soon it will be the lar%e&t city in the world) a dynamic city) b(t in term& of poll(tion) con%e&tion) and poverty) a ni%htmare+ I& livin% there an in&piration or a hindranceH PA6 8ivin% in the heart of Me,ico !ity i& neither an in&piration nor an ob&tacle+ ItL& a challen%e+ And the only way to deal with challen%e& i& to face (p to them+ ILve lived in other town& and citie& in Me,ico) b(t no matter how a%reeable they are) they &eem &omehow (nreal+ At a certain point) my

wife and I decided to move into the apartment where we live now+ If yo( live in Me,ico) yo(Lve %ot to live in Me,ico !ity+ INTER'IEWER !o(ld yo( tell (& &omethin% abo(t the Pa* familyH PA6 My father wa& Me,ican) my mother Spani&h+ An a(nt lived with (&Mrather eccentric) a& a(nt& are &(ppo&ed to be) and poetic in her own ab&(rd way+ My %randfather wa& a lawyer and a writer) a pop(lar noveli&t+ A& a matter of fact) d(rin% one period we lived off the &ale& of one of hi& book&) a be&tG&eller+ The Mi,oac ho(&e wa& hi&+ INTER'IEWER What abo(t book&H I &(ppo&e ILm thinkin% abo(t how "or%e& claimed he never act(ally left hi& fatherL& library+ PA6 ItL& a c(rio(& parallel+ My %randfather had a bea(tif(l library) which wa& the %reat thin% abo(t the Mi,oac ho(&e+ It had abo(t &i, or &even tho(&and book&) and I had a %reat deal of freedom to read+ I wa& a voracio(& reader when I wa& a child and even read >forbidden? book& beca(&e no one paid attention to what I wa& readin%+ When I wa& very yo(n%) I read 'oltaire+ Perhap& that led me to lo&e my reli%io(& faith+ I al&o read novel& that were more or le&& libertine) not really porno%raphic) .(&t racy+ INTER'IEWER 0id yo( read any childrenL& book&H PA6 #f co(r&e+ I read a lot of book& by Sal%ari) an Italian a(thor very pop(lar in Me,ico+ And E(le& 'erne+ #ne of my %reat heroe& wa& an American) "(ffalo "ill+ My friend& and I wo(ld pa&& from Ale,andre 0(ma&L& Three M(&keteer& to the cowboy& witho(t the &li%hte&t remor&e or &en&e that we were warpin% hi&tory+ INTER'IEWER Jo( &aid once that the fir&t time yo( &aw a &(rreali&t paintin%Ma pict(re where vine& were twi&tin% thro(%h the wall& of a ho(&eMyo( took it for reali&m+ PA6

ThatL& tr(e+ The Mi,oac ho(&e %rad(ally cr(mbled aro(nd (&+ We had to abandon one room after another beca(&e the roof& and wall& kept fallin% down+ INTER'IEWER When yo( were abo(t &i,teen in 12;3) yo( entered the National Preparatory School+ What did yo( &t(dy) and what wa& the &chool likeH PA6 The &chool wa& bea(tif(l+ It wa& b(ilt at the end of the &eventeenth cent(ry) the hi%h point of the baroO(e in Me,ican architect(re+ The &chool wa& bi%) and there wa& nobility in the &tone&) the col(mn&) the corridor&+ And there wa& another ae&thetic attaction+ 0(rin% the twentie&) the %overnment had m(ral& painted in it by #ro*co and RiveraMthe fir&t m(ral Rivera painted wa& in my &chool+ INTER'IEWER So yo( felt attracted to the work of the m(rali&t& thenH PA6 Je&) all of (& felt a rapport with the m(rali&t&L e,pre&&ioni&t &tyle+ "(t there wa& a contradiction between the architect(re and the paintin%+ 8ater on) I came to think that it wa& a pity the m(ral& were painted in b(ildin%& that didnLt belon% to o(r cent(ry+ INTER'IEWER What abo(t the c(rric(l(mH PA6 It wa& a m-lan%e of the rench tradition mi,ed with American ed(cational theorie&+ Eohn 0ewey) the American philo&opher) wa& a bi% infl(ence+ Al&o the >pro%re&&ive &chool? of ed(cation+ INTER'IEWER So the forei%n lan%(a%e yo( &t(died wa& renchH PA6 And En%li&h+ My father wa& a political e,ile d(rin% the revol(tion+ 9e had to leave Me,ico and take ref(%e in the :nited State&+ 9e went ahead and then we .oined him in !alifornia) in 8o& An%ele&) where we &tayed for almo&t two year&+ #n the fir&t day of &chool) I had a fi%ht with my American &choolmate&+ I co(ldnLt &peak a word of En%li&h) and they la(%hed beca(&e I co(ldnLt &ay &poonMd(rin% l(nch ho(r+ "(t when I came back to Me,ico on my fir&t day of &chool I had

another fi%ht+ Thi& time with my Me,ican cla&&mate& and for the &ame rea&onMbeca(&e I wa& a forei%nerK I di&covered I co(ld be a forei%ner in both co(ntrie&+ INTER'IEWER Were yo( infl(enced by any of yo(r teacher& in the National Preparatory SchoolH PA6 !ertainly+ I had the chance to &t(dy with the Me,ican poet !arlo& Pellicer+ Thro(%h him I met other poet& of hi& %eneration+ They opened my eye& to modern poetry+ I &ho(ld point o(t that my %randfatherL& library ended at the be%innin% of the twentieth cent(ry) &o it wa&nLt (ntil I wa& in the National Preparatory School that I learned book& were p(bli&hed after 1213+ Pro(&t wa& a revelation for me+ I tho(%ht no more novel& had been written after 6ola+ INTER'IEWER What abo(t poetry in Spani&hH PA6 I fo(nd o(t abo(t the Spani&h poet& of the Beneration of 12I<5 BarcQa 8orca) Rafael Alberti) and Eor%e B(ill-n+ I al&o read Antonio Machado and E(an RamAn Eim-ne*) who wa& a patriarch of poetry then+ I al&o read "or%e& at that time) b(t remember "or%e& wa& not yet a &hortG&tory writer+ 0(rin% the early thirtie& he wa& a poet and an e&&ayi&t+ Nat(rally) the %reate&t revelation d(rin% that fir&t period of my literary life wa& the poetry of Pablo Ner(da+ INTER'IEWER Jo( went on to (niver&ity) b(t in 12;< yo( made a momento(& deci&ion+ PA6 Well) I made &everal+ ir&t I went to J(catNn+ I fini&hed my (niver&ity work) b(t I left before %rad(atin%+ I ref(&ed to become a lawyer+ My family) like all Me,ican middleGcla&& familie& at that time) wanted their &on to be a doctor or a lawyer+ I only wanted to be a poet and al&o in &ome way a revol(tionary+ An opport(nity came for me to %o to J(catNn to work with &ome friend& in a &chool for the children of worker& and pea&ant&+ It wa& a %reat e,perienceMit made me reali*e I wa& a city boy and that my e,perience of Me,ico wa& that of central Me,ico) the (pland&+ INTER'IEWER So yo( di&covered %eo%raphyH PA6

People who live in citie& like New Jork or Pari& are (&(ally provincial& with re%ard to the re&t of the co(ntry+ I di&covered J(catNn) a very pec(liar province of &o(thern Me,ico+ ItL& Me,ico) b(t itL& al&o &omethin% very different thank& to the infl(ence of the Maya&+ I fo(nd o(t that Me,ico ha& another tradition be&ide& that of central Me,ico) another &et of root&Mthe Maya tradition+ J(catNn wa& &tran%ely co&mopolitan+ It had link& with !(ba and New #rlean&+ A& a matter of fact) d(rin% the nineteenth cent(ry) people from the J(catNn traveled more often to the :nited State& or E(rope than they did to Me,ico !ity+ I be%an to &ee .(&t how comple, Me,ico i&+ INTER'IEWER So then yo( ret(rned to Me,ico !ity and decided to %o to the Spani&h !ivil WarH PA6 I wa& invited to a con%re&&) and &ince I wa& a %reat parti&an of the Spani&h Rep(blic I immediately accepted+ I left the J(catNn &chool and went to Spain) where I &tayed for &ome month&+ I wanted to enroll in the Spani&h 8oyali&t ArmyMI wa& twentyGthreeMb(t I co(ldnLt beca(&e a& a vol(nteer I wo(ld have needed the recommendation of a political party+ I wa&nLt a member of the !omm(ni&t Party or any other party) &o there wa& no one to recommend me+ I wa& re.ected) b(t they told me that wa& not &o important beca(&e I wa& a yo(n% writerMI wa& the yo(n%e&t at the con%re&&Mand that I &ho(ld %o back to Me,ico and write for the Spani&h Rep(blic+ And that i& what I did+ INTER'IEWER What did that trip to Spain mean to yo() above and beyond politic& and the defen&e of the Spani&h Rep(blicH PA6 I di&covered another part of my herita%e+ I wa& familiar) of co(r&e) with the Spani&h literary tradition+ I have alway& viewed Spani&h literat(re a& my own) b(t itL& one thin% to know book& and another thin% to &ee the people) the mon(ment&) and the land&cape with yo(r own eye&+ INTER'IEWER So it wa& a %eo%raphical di&covery a%ainH PA6 Je&) b(t there wa& al&o the political) or to be more preci&e) the moral a&pect+ My political and intellect(al belief& were kindled by the idea of fraternity+ We all talked a lot abo(t it+ or in&tance) the novel& of Andr- Malra(,) which we all read) depicted the &earch for fraternity thro(%h revol(tionary action+ My Spani&h e,perience did not &tren%then my political belief&) b(t it did %ive an (ne,pected twi&t to my idea of fraternity+ #ne dayMStephen Spender wa& with me and mi%ht remember thi& epi&odeMwe went to the front in Madrid) which wa& in the (niver&ity

city+ It wa& a battlefield+ Sometime& in the &ame b(ildin% the 8oyali&t& wo(ld only be &eparated from the a&ci&t& by a &in%le wall+ We co(ld hear the &oldier& on the other &ide talkin%+ It wa& a &tran%e feelin%5 tho&e people facin% meMI co(ldnLt &ee them b(t only hear their voice&Mwere my enemie&+ "(t they had h(man voice&) like my own+ They were like me+ INTER'IEWER 0id thi& affect yo(r ability to hate yo(r enemyH PA6 Je&+ I be%an to think that perhap& all thi& fi%htin% wa& an ab&(rdity) b(t of co(r&e I co(ldnLt &ay that to anyone+ They wo(ld have tho(%ht I wa& a traitor) which I wa&nLt+ I (nder&tood then) or later) when I co(ld think &erio(&ly abo(t that di&O(ietin% e,perience) I (nder&tood that real fraternity implie& that yo( m(&t accept the fact that yo(r enemy i& al&o h(man+ I donLt mean that yo( m(&t be a friend to yo(r enemy+ No) difference& will &(b&i&t) b(t yo(r enemy i& al&o h(man) and the moment yo( (nder&tand that yo( can no lon%er accept violence+ or me it wa& a terrible e,perience+ It &hattered many of my deepe&t conviction&+ INTER'IEWER 0o yo( think that part of the horror of the &it(ation re&(lted from the fact that the a&ci&t &oldier& were &peakin% yo(r lan%(a%eH PA6 Je&+ The &oldier& on the other &ide of the wall were la(%hin% and &ayin%) Bive me a ci%arette) and thin%& like that+ I &aid to my&elf) Well) they are the &ame a& we on thi& &ide of the wall+ INTER'IEWER Jo( didnLt %o &trai%ht back to Me,ico) however+ PA6 #f co(r&e not+ It wa& my fir&t trip to E(rope+ I had to %o to Pari&+ Pari& wa& a m(&e(m/ it wa& hi&tory/ it wa& the pre&ent+ Walter "en.amin &aid Pari& wa& the capital of the nineteenth cent(ry) and he wa& ri%ht) b(t I think Pari& wa& al&o the capital of the twentieth cent(ry) the fir&t part at lea&t+ Not that it wa& the political or economic or philo&ophic capital) b(t the arti&tic capital+ or paintin% and the pla&tic art& in %eneral) b(t al&o for literat(re+ Not beca(&e the be&t arti&t& and writer& lived in Pari& b(t beca(&e of the %reat movement&) ri%ht down to &(rreali&m+ INTER'IEWER What did yo( &ee that moved yo(H

PA6 I went to the :niver&al E,po&ition and &aw B(ernica) which Pica&&o had .(&t painted+ I wa& twentyGthree and had thi& tremendo(& opport(nity to &ee the Pica&&o& and MirA& in the Spani&h pavilion+ I didnLt know many people in Pari&) and by p(re chance I went to an e,hibition where I &aw a paintin% by Ma, Ern&t) E(rope after the Rain) which made a deep impre&&ion on me+ INTER'IEWER What abo(t peopleH PA6 I met a !(ban writer who became very famo(& later) Ale.o !arpentier+ 9e invited me to a party at the ho(&e of the &(rreali&t poet Robert 0e&no&+ There wa& a h(%e crowd) many of them O(ite well knownMb(t I didnLt know a &o(l and felt lo&t+ I wa& very yo(n%+ 8ookin% aro(nd the ho(&e) I fo(nd &ome &tran%e ob.ect&+ I a&ked the pretty lady of the ho(&e what they were+ She &miled and told me they were Eapane&e erotic ob.ect&) %odemiche&) and everyone la(%hed at my innocence+ I reali*ed .(&t how provincial I wa&+ INTER'IEWER Jo( were back in Me,ico in 12;F+ So were Andr- "reton and Trot&ky5 did their pre&ence mean anythin% to yo(H PA6 #f co(r&e+ Politically) I wa& a%ain&t "reton and Trot&ky+ I tho(%ht o(r %reat enemy wa& fa&ci&m) that Stalin wa& ri%ht) that we had to be (nited a%ain&t fa&ci&m+ Even tho(%h "reton and Trot&ky were not a%ent& of the Na*i&) I wa& a%ain&t them+ #n the other hand) I wa& fa&cinated by Trot&ky+ I &ecretly read hi& book&) &o in&ide my&elf I wa& a heterodo,+ And I admired "reton+ I had read 8LAmo(r fo() a book that really impre&&ed me+ INTER'IEWER So in addition to Spani&h and Spani&h American poetry yo( pl(n%ed into E(ropean moderni&m+ PA6 Je&) I wo(ld &ay there were three te,t& that made a mark on me d(rin% thi& period5 the fir&t wa& EliotL& The Wa&te 8and) which I read in Me,ico in 12;1+ I wa& &eventeen or &o) and the poem baffled me+ I co(ldnLt (nder&tand a word+ Since then ILve read it co(ntle&& time& and &till think it one of the %reat poem& of the cent(ry+ The &econd te,t wa& SaintGEohn Per&eL& Anaba&e) and the third wa& "retonL& &mall book) which e,alted free love) poetry and rebellion+

INTER'IEWER "(t de&pite yo(r admiration yo( wo(ldnLt approach "retonH PA6 #nce a m(t(al friend invited me to &ee him) tellin% me I wa& wron% abo(t "retonL& politic&+ I ref(&ed+ Many year& later) I met him and we became %ood friend&+ It wa& thenMin &pite of bein% critici*ed by many of my friend&MI read with enth(&ia&m the Manife&to for a Revol(tionary Independent Art written by "reton and Trot&ky and &i%ned by 0ie%o Rivera+ In it Trot&ky reno(nce& political control of literat(re+ The only policy the revol(tionary &tate can have with re%ard to arti&t& and writer& i& to %ive them total freedom+ INTER'IEWER It wo(ld &eem a& tho(%h yo(r internal parado, wa& t(rnin% into a cri&i&+ PA6 I wa& a%ain&t &ociali&t reali&m) and that wa& the be%innin% of my conflict& with the !omm(ni&t&+ I wa& not a member of the !omm(ni&t Party) b(t I wa& friendly with them+ Where we fo(%ht fir&t wa& abo(t the problem of art+ INTER'IEWER So the e,po&ition of &(rreali&m in Me,ico !ity in 1243 wo(ld have been a problem for yo(+ PA6 I wa& the editor of a ma%a*ine) Taller+ In it one of my friend& p(bli&hed an article &ayin% the &(rreali&t& had opened new vi&ta&) b(t that they had become the academy of their own revol(tion+ It wa& a mi&take) e&pecially d(rin% tho&e year&+ "(t we p(bli&hed the article+ INTER'IEWER P(bli&h or peri&h+ PA6 We m(&t accept o(r mi&take&+ If we donLt) weLre lo&t) donLt yo( thinkH Thi& interview i& in &ome way& an e,erci&e in p(blic confe&&ionMof which I am very m(ch afraid+ INTER'IEWER

#ctavio) de&pite the fact that yo( are a poet and an e&&ayi&t) it &eem& that yo( have had noveli&tic temptation&+ ILm thinkin% of that >0iary of a 0reamer? yo( p(bli&hed in 12;F in yo(r ma%a*ine Taller and The Monkey Brammarian of 12<3+ PA6 I wo(ldnLt call that diary noveli&tic+ It wa& a kind of notebook made (p of meditation&+ I wa& probably (nder the &pell of Rilke and hi& Notebook& of Malte 8a(rid& "ri%%e+ The tr(th i& that the novel ha& alway& been a temptation for me+ "(t perhap& I am not &(ited to it+ The art of the novel (nite& two different thin%&+ It i& like epic poetry) a world peopled by character& who&e action& are the e&&ence of the work+ "(t (nlike the epic) the novel i& analytical+ It tell& the deed& of the character&) and at the &ame time) critici*e& them+ Tom Eone&) #dette de !r-cy) Ivan $arama*ov) or 0on R(i,ote are character& devo(red by critici&m+ Jo( donLt find that in 9omer or 'ir%il+ Not even in 0ante+ The epic e,alt& or condemn&/ the novel analy*e& and critici*e&+ The epic heroe& are oneGpiece) &olid character&/ noveli&tic character& are ambi%(o(&+ The&e two pole&) critici&m and epic) combine in the novel+ INTER'IEWER What abo(t The Monkey BrammarianH PA6 I wo(ldnLt call that a novel+ ItL& on the frontier of the novel+ If itL& anythin%) that book i& an antiG novel+ Whenever ILm tempted to write a novel) I &ay to my&elf) Poet& are not noveli&t&+ Some poet&) like Boethe) have written novel&Mrather borin% one&+ I think the poetic %eni(& i& &ynthetic+ A poet create& &ynthe&e& while the noveli&t analy*e&+ INTER'IEWER If we co(ld ret(rn to Me,ico d(rin% the war year&) I wo(ld like to a&k yo( abo(t yo(r relation&hip with Pablo Ner(da) who wa& &ent to Me,ico a& !on&(l Beneral of !hile in 1243+ PA6 A& I &aid earlier) Ner(daL& poetry wa& a revelation for me when I &tarted to read modern poetry in the thirtie&+ When I p(bli&hed my fir&t book) I &ent a copy to Ner(da+ 9e never an&wered me) b(t it wa& he who invited me to the con%re&& in Spain+ When I reached Pari& in 12;<) I knew no one+ "(t .(&t a& I wa& %ettin% off the train) a tall man ran (p to me &ho(tin%) #ctavio Pa*K #ctavio Pa*K It wa& Ner(da+ Then he &aid) #h) yo( are &o yo(n%K and we embraced+ 9e fo(nd me a hotel) and we became %reat friend&+ 9e wa& one of the fir&t to take notice of my poetry and to read it &ympathetically+ INTER'IEWER So what went wron%H

PA6 When he came to Me,ico) I &aw him very often) b(t there were diffic(ltie&+ ir&t) there wa& a per&onal problem+ Ner(da wa& very %enero(&) b(t al&o very domineerin%+ Perhap& I wa& too rebellio(& and .ealo(& of my own independence+ 9e loved to be &(rro(nded by a kind of co(rt made (p of people who loved himM&ometime& the&e wo(ld be intelli%ent people) b(t often they were mediocre+ The &econd problem wa& politic&+ 9e became more and more Stalini&t) while I became le&& and le&& enchanted with Stalin+ inally we fo(%htMalmo&t phy&icallyMand &topped &peakin% to each other+ 9e wrote &ome not terribly nice thin%& abo(t me) incl(din% one na&ty poem+ I wrote &ome awf(l thin%& abo(t him+ And that wa& that+ INTER'IEWER Wa& there a reconciliationH PA6 or twenty year& we didnLt &peak+ WeLd &ometime& be at the &ame place at the &ame time) and I knew he wo(ld tell o(r m(t(al friend& to &top &eein% me beca(&e I wa& a >traitor+? "(t then the $hr(&hchev report abo(t the Stalini&t terror& wa& made p(blic and &hattered hi& belief&+ We happened to be in 8ondon at the &ame poetry fe&tival+ I had .(&t remarried) a& had Pablo+ I wa& with MarieGEo&-) my wife) when we met Matilde :rr(tia) hi& wife+ She &aid) If ILm not mi&taken) yo( are #ctavio Pa*+ To which I an&wered) Je&) and yo( are Matilde+ Then &he &aid) 0o yo( want to &ee PabloH I think he wo(ld love to &ee yo( a%ain+ We went to PabloL& room) where he wa& bein% interviewed by a .o(rnali&t+ A& &oon a& the .o(rnali&t left) Pablo &aid) My &on) and embraced me+ The e,pre&&ion i& very !hileanMmi.itoMand he &aid it with emotion+ I wa& very moved) almo&t cryin%+ We talked briefly) beca(&e he wa& on hi& way back to !hile+ 9e &ent me a book) I &ent him one+ And then a few year& later) he died+ It wa& &ad) b(t it wa& one of the be&t thin%& that ha& ever happened to meMthe po&&ibility to be friend& a%ain with a man I liked and admired &o very m(ch+ INTER'IEWER The early fortie& were clearly diffic(lt time& for yo() and yet they &eem to have forced yo( to define yo(r own intellect(al po&ition+ PA6 ThatL& tr(e+ I wa& havin% tremendo(& political problem&) breakin% with former friend&MNer(da amon% them+ I did make &ome new friend&) like 'ictor Ser%e) a rancoGR(&&ian writer) an old revol(tionary+ "(t I reached the concl(&ion that I had to leave my co(ntry) e,ile my&elf+ I wa& fort(nate beca(&e I received a B(%%enheim ellow&hip to %o to the :nited State&+ #n thi& &econd vi&it) I went fir&t to "erkeley and then to New Jork+ I didnLt know anyone) had no money) and wa& act(ally de&tit(te+ "(t I wa& really happy+ It wa& one of the be&t period& of my life+

INTER'IEWER WhyH PA6 Well) I di&covered the American people) and I wa& thrilled+ It wa& like breathin% deeply and freely while facin% a va&t &paceMa feelin% of elation) li%htne&&) and confidence+ I feel the &ame way every time I come to yo(r co(ntry) b(t not with the &ame inten&ity+ It wa& vivifyin% .(&t to be in the State& in tho&e day&) and at the &ame time) I co(ld &tep back from politic& and pl(n%e into poetry+ I di&covered American poetry in !onrad AikenL& Antholo%y of Modern American Poetry+ I had already read Eliot) b(t I knew nothin% abo(t William !arlo& William& or Po(nd or Marianne Moore+ I wa& &li%htly acO(ainted with 9art !raneL& poetryMhe lived hi& la&t year& in Me,ico) b(t he wa& more a le%end than a body of poetry+ While I wa& in "erkeley) I met M(riel R(key&er who very %enero(&ly tran&lated &ome of my poem&+ That wa& a %reat moment for me+ A few year& later) &he &ent them to 9ori*on) which Spender and !yril !onnolly were editin% in 8ondon) where they were p(bli&hed+ or me it wa& a kind of + + + INTER'IEWER Small apotheo&i&H PA6 A very &mall apotheo&i&+ After New Jork) where I became a %reat reader of Parti&an Review) I went on to Pari& and ca(%ht (p with &ome friend& ILd met in Me,ico+ "en.amin P-ret) for e,ample+ Thro(%h him) I finally met "reton+ We became friend&+ S(rreali&m wa& in decline) b(t &(rreali&m for rench literary life wa& &omethin% healthy) &omethin% vital and rebellio(&+ INTER'IEWER What do yo( meanH PA6 The &(rreali&t& embodied &omethin% the rench had for%otten5 the other &ide of rea&on) love) freedom) poetry+ The rench have a tendency to be too rationali&tic) to red(ce everythin% to idea& and then to fi%ht over them+ When I reached Pari&) EeanGPa(l Sartre wa& the dominant fi%(re+ INTER'IEWER "(t for yo( e,i&tentiali&m wo(ld have been old hat+ PA6

ThatL& ri%ht+ In Madrid) the Spani&h philo&opher #rte%a y Ba&&etMand later hi& di&ciple& in Me,ico !ity and "(eno& Aire&Mhad p(bli&hed all the main te,t& of phenomenolo%y and e,i&tentiali&m) from 9(&&erl to 9eide%%er) &o Sartre repre&ented more a clever variation than an innovation+ Al&o) I wa& a%ain&t SartreL& politic&+ The one per&on connected to rench e,i&tentiali&m with whom I wa& friendly and who wa& very %enero(& to me wa& Albert !am(&+ "(t I m(&t &ay I wa& nearer to the &(rreali&t poet&+ INTER'IEWER "y the end of the fortie& yo( had p(bli&hed two ma.or book&) the poem& collected in reedom on Parole and The 8abyrinth of Solit(de+ ILve alway& been c(rio(& abo(t the title of reedom on Parole+ 0oe& it have anythin% to do with the f(t(ri&t poet MarinettiL& >word& on leave?H PA6 ILm afraid not+ Marinetti wanted to free word& from the chain& of &ynta, and %rammar) a kind of ae&thetic nihili&m+ reedom on Parole ha& more to do with moral& than ae&thetic&+ I &imply wanted to &ay that h(man freedom i& conditional+ In En%li&h) when yo( are let o(t of .ail yo(Lre >on parole)? and parole mean& >&peech)? >word)? >word of honor+? "(t the condition (nder which yo( are free i& lan%(a%e) h(man awarene&&+ INTER'IEWER So for yo( freedom of &peech i& more than the ri%ht to &peak yo(r mindH PA6 Ab&ol(tely+ Ever &ince I wa& an adole&cent ILve been intri%(ed by the my&tery of freedom+ "eca(&e it i& a my&tery+ reedom depend& on the very thin% that limit& or denie& it) fate) Bod) biolo%ical) or &ocial determini&m) whatever+ To carry o(t it& mi&&ion) fate co(nt& on the complicity of o(r freedom) and to be free) we m(&t overcome fate+ The dialectic& of freedom and fate i& the theme of Breek tra%edy and Shake&peare) altho(%h in Shake&peare fate appear& a& pa&&ion =love) .ealo(&y) ambition) envy@ and a& chance+ In Spani&h theaterMe&pecially in !alderAn and Tir&o de MolinaMthe my&tery of freedom e,pre&&e& it&elf in the lan%(a%e of !hri&tian theolo%y5 divine providence and free will+ The idea of conditional freedom implie& the notion of per&onal re&pon&ibility+ Each of (&) literally) either create& or de&troy& hi& own freedom+ A freedom that i& alway& precario(&+ And that brin%& (p the titleL& poetic or ae&thetic meanin%5 the poem) freedom) &tand& above an order) lan%(a%e+ INTER'IEWER Jo( wrote reedom on Parole between 12;C and 12C<) more than twenty year&+ + + + PA6 I wrote and rewrote the book many time&+

INTER'IEWER I& it an a(tobio%raphyH PA6 Je& and no+ It e,pre&&e& my ae&thetic and per&onal e,perience&) from my earlie&t yo(th (ntil the be%innin% of my mat(rity+ I wrote the fir&t poem& when I wa& twentyGone) and I fini&hed the la&t when I t(rned fortyGthree+ "(t the real prota%oni&t of tho&e poem& i& not #ctavio Pa* b(t a halfG real) halfGmythical fi%(re5 the poet+ Altho(%h that poet wa& my a%e) &poke my lan%(a%e) and hi& vital &tati&tic& were identical with my own) he wa& &omeone el&e+ A fi%(re) an ima%e derived from tradition+ Every poet i& the momentary incarnation of that fi%(re+ INTER'IEWER 0oe&nLt The 8abyrinth of Solit(de al&o have an a(tobio%raphical dimen&ionH PA6 A%ain) ye& and no+ I wrote The 8abyrinth of Solit(de in Pari&+ The idea came to me in the :nited State& when I tried to analy*e the &it(ation of the Me,ican& livin% in 8o& An%ele&) the pach(co&) or !hicano& a& theyLre called now+ I &(ppo&e they were a kind of mirror for meMthe a(tobio%raphical dimen&ion yo( like to &ee+ That on one &ide+ "(t there i& al&o the relation&hip between Me,ico and the :nited State&+ If there are two co(ntrie& in the world that are different) they are the :nited State& and Me,ico+ "(t we are condemned to live to%ether forever+ So we &ho(ld try to (nder&tand each other and al&o to know o(r&elve&+ That wa& how The 8abyrinth of Solit(de be%an+ INTER'IEWER That book deal& with idea& &(ch a& difference) re&entment) the hermetic nat(re of Me,ican man) b(t it doe&nLt to(ch on the life of the poet+ PA6 Tr(e+ I tried to deal with that &(b.ect in a &hort e&&ay called >Poetry of Solit(de and Poetry of !omm(nion+? That article in &ome way& i& the poetic eO(ivalent to The 8abyrinth of Solit(de beca(&e it pre&ent& my vi&ion of man) which i& very &imple+ There are two &it(ation& for every h(man bein%+ The fir&t i& the &olit(de we feel when we are born+ #(r fir&t &it(ation i& that of orphanhood) and it i& only later that we di&cover the oppo&ite) filial attachment+ The &econd i& that beca(&e we are thrown) a& 9eide%%er &ay&) into thi& world) we feel we m(&t find what the "(ddhi&t& call >the other &hare+? Thi& i& the thir&t for comm(nity+ I think philo&ophy and reli%ion derive from thi& ori%inal &it(ation or predicament+ Every co(ntry and every individ(al trie& to re&olve it in different way&+ Poetry i& a brid%e between &olit(de and comm(nion+ !omm(nion) even for a my&tic like Saint Eohn of the !ro&&) can never be ab&ol(te+

INTER'IEWER I& thi& why the lan%(a%e of my&tici&m i& &o eroticH PA6 Je&) beca(&e lover&) which i& what the my&tic& are) con&tit(te the %reate&t ima%e of comm(nion+ "(t even between lover& &olit(de i& never completely aboli&hed+ !onver&ely) &olit(de i& never ab&ol(te+ We are alway& with &omeone) even if it i& only o(r &hadow+ We are never oneMwe are alway& we+ The&e e,treme& are the pole& of h(man life+ INTER'IEWER All in all) yo( &pent &ome ei%ht year& abroad) fir&t in the :nited State&) then in Pari&) and then in the Me,ican diplomatic &ervice+ 9ow do yo( view tho&e year& in the conte,t of yo(r career a& a poetH PA6 Act(ally) I &pent nine year& abroad+ If yo( co(nt each of tho&e year& a& a month) yo(Lll find that tho&e nine year& were nine month& that I lived in the womb of time+ The year& I lived in San ranci&co) New Jork) and Pari& were a period of %e&tation+ I wa& reborn) and the man who came back to Me,ico at the end of 12CI wa& a different poet) a different writer+ If I had &tayed in Me,ico) I probably wo(ld have drowned in .o(rnali&m) b(rea(cracy) or alcohol+ I ran away from that world and al&o) perhap&) from my&elf+ INTER'IEWER "(t yo( were hardly %reeted a& the prodi%al &on when yo( reappeared + + + PA6 I wa&nLt accepted at all) e,cept by a few yo(n% people+ I had broken with the predominant ae&thetic) moral) and political idea& and wa& in&tantly attacked by many people who were all too &(re of their do%ma& and pre.(dice&+ It wa& the be%innin% of a di&a%reement that ha& &till not come to an end+ It i&nLt &imply an ideolo%ical difference of opinion+ !ertainly tho&e polemic& have been bitter and hardGfo(%ht) b(t even that doe& not e,plain the malevolence of &ome people) the pettine&& of other&) and the reticence of the ma.ority+ ILve e,perienced de&pair and ra%e) b(t ILve .(&t had to &hr(% my &ho(lder& and move forward+ Now I &ee tho&e O(arrel& a& a ble&&in%5 if a writer i& accepted) heLll &oon be re.ected or for%otten+ I didnLt &et o(t to be a tro(ble&ome writer) b(t if thatL& what ILve been) I am totally (nrepentant+ INTER'IEWER Jo( left Me,ico a%ain in 12C2+

PA6 And I didnLt come back (ntil 12<1+ An ab&ence of twelve year&Manother &ymbolic n(mber+ I ret(rned beca(&e Me,ico ha& alway& been a ma%net I canLt re&i&t) a real pa&&ion) alternately happy and wretched like all pa&&ion&+ INTER'IEWER Tell me abo(t tho&e twelve year&+ ir&t yo( went back to Pari&) then to India a& the Me,ican amba&&ador) and later to En%land and the :nited State&+ PA6 When ILd fini&hed the definitive ver&ion of reedom on Parole) I felt I co(ld &tart over+ I e,plored new poetic world&) knew other co(ntrie&) lived other &entiment&) had other idea&+ The fir&t and %reate&t of my new e,perience& wa& India+ Another %eo%raphy) another h(manity) other %od&Ma different kind of civili*ation+ I lived there for .(&t over &i, year&+ I traveled aro(nd the &(bcontinent O(ite a bit and lived for period& in !eylon and Af%hani&tanMtwo more %eo%raphical and c(lt(ral e,treme&+ If I had to e,pre&& my vi&ion of India in a &in%le ima%e) I wo(ld &ay that I &ee an immen&e plain5 in the di&tance) white) r(ino(& architect(re) a powerf(l river) a h(%e tree) and in it& &hade a &hape =a be%%ar) a "(ddha) a pile of &tone&H@+ #(t from amon% the knot& and fork& of the tree) a woman ari&e& + + + I fell in love and %ot married in India+ INTER'IEWER When did yo( become &erio(&ly intere&ted in A&ian tho(%htH PA6 Startin% with my fir&t trip to the Ea&t in 12CIMI &pent almo&t a year in India and EapanMI made &mall inc(r&ion& into the philo&ophic and arti&tic tradition& of tho&e co(ntrie&+ I vi&ited many place& and read &ome of the cla&&ic& of Indian tho(%ht+ Mo&t important to me were the poet& and philo&opher& of !hina and Eapan+ 0(rin% my &econd &tay in India) between 12DI and 12DF) I read many of the %reat philo&ophic and reli%io(& te,t&+ "(ddhi&m impre&&ed me profo(ndly+ INTER'IEWER 0id yo( think of convertin%H PA6 No) b(t &t(dyin% "(ddhi&m wa& a mental and &pirit(al e,erci&e that helped me be%in to do(bt the e%o and it& mira%e&+ E%o wor&hip i& the %reate&t idolatry of modern man+ "(ddhi&m for me i& a critici&m of the e%o and of reality+ A radical critici&m that doe& not end in ne%ation b(t in acceptance+ All the %reat "(ddhi&t &anct(arie& in India =the 9ind( &anct(arie& a& well) b(t tho&e)

perhap& beca(&e theyLre later) are more baroO(e and elaborate@ contain hi%hly &en&(al &c(lpt(re& and relief&+ A powerf(l b(t peacef(l &e,(ality+ I wa& &hocked to find that e,altation of the body and of nat(ral power& in a reli%io(& and philo&ophic tradition that di&para%e& the world and preache& ne%ation and emptine&&+ That became the central theme of a &hort book I wrote d(rin% tho&e year&) !on.(nction& and 0i&.(nction&+ INTER'IEWER Wa& it hard to balance bein% Me,ican amba&&ador to India with yo(r e,ploration& of IndiaH PA6 My amba&&adorial work wa& not ard(o(&+ I had time) I co(ld travel and write+ And not only abo(t India+ The &t(dent movement& of 12DF fa&cinated me+ In a certain way I felt the hope& and a&piration& of my own yo(th were bein% reborn+ I never tho(%ht it wo(ld lead to a revol(tionary tran&formation of &ociety) b(t I did reali*e that I wa& witne&&in% the appearance of a new &en&ibility that in &ome fa&hion rhymed with what I had felt and tho(%ht before+ INTER'IEWER Jo( felt that hi&tory wa& repeatin% it&elfH PA6 In a way+ The &imilarity between &ome of the attit(de& of the 12DF &t(dent& and the &(rreali&t poet&) for e,ample) wa& clear to &ee+ I tho(%ht William "lake wo(ld have been &ympathetic to both the word& and the action& of tho&e yo(n% people+ The &t(dent movement in Me,ico wa& more ideolo%ical than in rance or the :nited State&) b(t it too had le%itimate a&piration&+ The Me,ican political &y&tem) born o(t of the revol(tion) had &(rvived b(t wa& &(fferin% a kind of hi&torical arterio&clero&i&+ #n #ctober I) 12DF) the Me,ican %overnment decided to (&e violence to &(ppre&& the &t(dent movement+ It wa& a br(tal action+ I felt I co(ld not %o on &ervin% the %overnment) &o I left the diplomatic corp&+ INTER'IEWER Jo( went to Pari& and then to the :nited State& before &pendin% that year at !ambrid%e+ PA6 Je&) and d(rin% tho&e month& I reflected on the recent hi&tory of Me,ico+ The revol(tion be%an in 1213 with %reat democratic ambition&+ More than half a cent(ry later) the nation wa& controlled by a paternali&tic) a(thoritarian party+ So in 12D2 I wrote a po&t&cript to The 8abyrinth of Solit(de) a >critiO(e of the pyramid)? which I took to be the &ymbolic form of Me,ican a(thoritariani&m+ I &tated that the only way of %ettin% beyond the political and hi&torical cri&i& we were livin% thro(%hMthe paraly&i& of the in&tit(tion& created by the revol(tionMwa& to be%in democratic reform+

INTER'IEWER "(t that wa& not nece&&arily what the &t(dent movement wa& &eekin%+ PA6 No+ The &t(dent leader& and the leftGwin% political %ro(p& favored violent &ocial revol(tion+ They were (nder the infl(ence of the !(ban Revol(tionMand there are &till &ome who defend idel !a&tro even today+ My point of view p(t me in oppo&ition) &im(ltaneo(&ly) to the %overnment and the left+ The >pro%re&&ive? intellect(al&) almo&t all of whom wanted to e&tabli&h a totalitarian &ociali&t re%ime) attacked me vehemently+ I fo(%ht back+ Rather) we fo(%ht backMa &mall %ro(p of yo(n%er writer& a%reed with &ome of my opinion&+ We all believed in a peacef(l) %rad(al move toward democracy+ We fo(nded Pl(ral) a ma%a*ine that wo(ld combine literat(re) art) and political critici&m+ There wa& a cri&i&) &o we fo(nded another) '(elta =>ret(rn?@) which i& &till %oin% &tron% and ha& a faithf(l) demandin% reader&hip+ Me,ico ha& chan%ed) and now mo&t of o(r old enemie& &ay they are democratic+ We are livin% thro(%h a tran&ition to democracy) one that will have it& &etback& and will &eem too &low for &ome+ INTER'IEWER 0o yo( &ee yo(r&elf a& part of a lon% line of 8atin American &tate&menGwriter&) one that co(ld incl(de Ar%entinaL& Sarmiento in the nineteenth and Ner(da in the twentieth cent(ryH PA6 I donLt think of my&elf a& a &tate&manGpoet) and ILm not really comparable to Sarmiento or Ner(da+ Sarmiento wa& a real &tate&man and a %reat political fi%(re in addition to bein% a %reat writer+ Ner(da wa& a poet) a %reat poet+ 9e .oined the !omm(ni&t Party) b(t for %enero(&) &emiG reli%io(& rea&on&+ It wa& a real conver&ion+ So hi& political militance wa& not that of an intellect(al b(t of a believer+ Within the party) he &eem& to have been a political pra%mati&t) b(t) a%ain) he wa& more like one of the faithf(l than a critical intellect(al+ A& for me) well) ILve never been a member of any political party) and ILve never r(n for p(blic office+ I have been a political and &ocial critic) b(t alway& from the mar%inal po&ition of an independent writer+ ILm not a .oiner) altho(%h of co(r&e ILve had and have my per&onal preference&+ ILm different from Mario 'ar%a& 8lo&a) who did decide to intervene directly in hi& co(ntryL& politic&+ 'ar%a& 8lo&a i& like 9avel in !*echo&lovakia or Malra(, in rance after World War II+ INTER'IEWER "(t it i& almo&t impo&&ible to &eparate politic& from literat(re or any a&pect of c(lt(re+ PA6 Since the Enli%htenment) there ha& been a con&tant confl(ence of literat(re) philo&ophy) and politic&+ In the En%li&hG&peakin% world yo( have Milton a& an antecedent a& well a& the %reat

romantic& in the nineteenth cent(ry+ In the twentieth cent(ry) there are many e,ample&+ Eliot) for in&tance) wa& never an active participant in politic&) b(t hi& writin% i& an impa&&ioned defen&e of traditional val(e&) val(e& that have a political dimen&ion+ I mention Eliot) who&e belief& are totally different from my own) &imply beca(&e he too wa& an independent writer who .oined no party+ I con&ider my&elf a private per&on) altho(%h I re&erve the ri%ht to have opinion& and to write abo(t matter& that affect my co(ntry and my contemporarie&+ When I wa& yo(n%) I fo(%ht a%ain&t Na*i totalitariani&m and) later on) a%ain&t the Soviet dictator&hip+ I donLt re%ret either &tr(%%le in the &li%hte&t+ INTER'IEWER Thinkin% abo(t yo(r time in India now and it& effect on yo(r poetry) what wo(ld yo( &ay abo(t the infl(ence of IndiaH PA6 If I hadnLt lived in India) I co(ld not have written "lanco or mo&t of the poem& in Ea&tern Slope+ The time I &pent in A&ia wa& a h(%e pa(&e) a& if time had &lowed down and &pace had become lar%er+ In a few rare moment&) I e,perienced tho&e &tate& of bein% in which we are at one with the world aro(nd (&) when the door& of time &eem to open) if only &li%htly+ We all live tho&e in&tant& in o(r childhood) b(t modern life rarely allow& (& to ree,perience them when weLre ad(lt&+ A& re%ard& my poetry) that period be%in& with Salamander) c(lminate& in Ea&tern Slope) and end& with The Monkey Brammarian+ INTER'IEWER "(t didnLt yo( write The Monkey Brammarian in 12<3) the year yo( &pent at !ambrid%e :niver&ityH PA6 I did+ It wa& my farewell to India+ That year in En%land al&o chan%ed me+ E&pecially beca(&e of what we m(&t nece&&arily refer to a& En%li&h >civility)? which incl(de& the c(ltivation of eccentricity+ That ta(%ht me not only to re&pect my fellow man b(t tree&) plant&) and bird& a& well+ I al&o read certain poet&+ Thank& to !harle& Tomlin&on) I di&covered Word&worth+ The Prel(de became one of my favorite book&+ There may be echoe& of it in A 0raft of Shadow&+ INTER'IEWER 0o yo( have a &ched(le for writin%H PA6 ILve never been able to maintain a fi,ed &ched(le+ or year&) I wrote in my few free ho(r&+ I wa& O(ite poor and from an early a%e had to hold down &everal .ob& to eke o(t a livin%+ I wa& a minor employee in the National Archive/ I worked in a bank/ I wa& a .o(rnali&t/ I finally fo(nd a

comfortable b(t b(&y po&t in the diplomatic &ervice) b(t none of tho&e .ob& had any real effect on my work a& a poet+ INTER'IEWER 0o yo( have to be in any &pecific place in order to writeH PA6 A noveli&t need& hi& typewriter) b(t yo( can write poetry any time) anywhere+ Sometime& I mentally compo&e a poem on a b(& or walkin% down the &treet+ The rhythm of walkin% help& me fi, the ver&e&+ Then when I %et home) I write it all down+ or a lon% time when I wa& yo(n%er) I wrote at ni%ht+ ItL& O(ieter) more tranO(il+ "(t writin% at ni%ht al&o ma%nifie& the writerL& &olit(de+ Nowaday& I write d(rin% the late mornin% and into the afternoon+ ItL& a plea&(re to fini&h a pa%e when ni%ht fall&+ INTER'IEWER Jo(r work never di&tracted yo( from yo(r writin%H PA6 No) b(t let me %ive yo( an e,ample+ #nce I had a totally infernal .ob in the National "ankin% !ommi&&ion =how I %ot it) I canLt %(e&&@) which con&i&ted in co(ntin% packet& of old banknote& already &ealed and ready to be b(rned+ I had to make &(re each packet contained the reO(i&ite three tho(&and pe&o&+ I almo&t alway& had one banknote too many or too fewMthey were alway& five&M&o I decided to %ive (p co(ntin% them and to (&e tho&e lon% ho(r& to compo&e a &erie& of &onnet& in my head+ Rhyme helped me retain the ver&e& in my memory) b(t not havin% paper and pencil made my ta&k m(ch more diffic(lt+ ILve alway& admired Milton for dictatin% lon% pa&&a%e& from Paradi&e 8o&t to hi& da(%hter&+ :nrhymed pa&&a%e& at thatK INTER'IEWER I& it the &ame when yo( write pro&eH PA6 Pro&e i& another matter+ Jo( have to write it in a O(iet) i&olated place) even if that happen& to be the bathroom+ "(t above all to write itL& e&&ential to have one or two dictionarie& at hand+ The telephone i& the writerL& devil) the dictionary hi& %(ardian an%el+ I (&ed to type) b(t now I write everythin% in lon%hand+ If itL& pro&e) I write it o(t one) two) or three time&) and then dictate it into a tape recorder+ My &ecretary type& it o(t) and I correct it+ Poetry I write and rewrite con&tantly+ INTER'IEWER

What i& the in&piration or &tartin% point for a poemH !an yo( %ive an e,ample of how the proce&& work&H PA6 Each poem i& different+ #ften the fir&t line i& a %ift) I donLt know if from the %od& or from that my&terio(& fac(lty called in&piration+ 8et me (&e S(n Stone a& an e,ample5 I wrote the fir&t thirty ver&e& a& if &omeone were &ilently dictatin% them to me+ I wa& &(rpri&ed at the fl(idity with which tho&e hendeca&yllabic line& appeared one after another+ They came from far off and from nearby) from within my own che&t+ S(ddenly the c(rrent &topped flowin%+ I read what ILd written MI didnLt have to chan%e a thin%+ "(t it wa& only a be%innin%) and I had no idea where tho&e line& were %oin%+ A few day& later) I tried to %et &tarted a%ain) not in a pa&&ive way b(t tryin% to orient and direct the flow of ver&e&+ I wrote another thirty or forty line&+ I &topped+ I went back to it a few day& later) and little by little) I be%an to di&cover the theme of the poem and where it wa& all headin%+ INTER'IEWER A fi%(re be%an to appear in the carpetH PA6 It wa& a kind of review of my life) a re&(rrection of my e,perience&) my concern&) my fail(re&) my ob&e&&ion&+ I reali*ed I wa& livin% the end of my yo(th and that the poem wa& &im(ltaneo(&ly an end and a new be%innin%+ When I reached a certain point) the verbal c(rrent &topped) and all I co(ld do wa& repeat the fir&t ver&e&+ That i& the &o(rce of the poemL& circ(lar form+ There wa& nothin% arbitrary abo(t it+ S(n Stone i& the la&t poem in the book that %ather& to%ether the fir&t period of my poetry5 reedom on Parole+ Even tho(%h I didnLt know what I wo(ld write after that) I wa& &(re that one period of my life and my poetry had ended) and another wa& be%innin%+ INTER'IEWER "(t the title &eem& to all(de to the cyclical A*tec concept of time+ PA6 While I wa& writin% the poem) I wa& readin% an archeolo%ical e&&ay abo(t the A*tec calendar) and it occ(rred to me to call the poem S(n Stone+ I added or c(tMI donLt remember whichM three or fo(r line& &o that the poem wo(ld coincide with the five h(ndred and ei%htyGfo(r day& of the con.(nction of 'en(& with the S(n+ "(t the time of my poem i& not the rit(al time of A*tec co&mo%ony b(t h(man) bio%raphical time) which i& linear+ INTER'IEWER "(t yo( tho(%ht &erio(&ly eno(%h abo(t the n(merical &ymboli&m of CF4 to limit the n(mber of ver&e& in the poem to that n(mber+

PA6 I confe&& that I have been and am &till fond of n(merolo%ical combination&+ #ther poem& of mine are al&o b(ilt aro(nd certain n(merical proportion&+ It i&nLt an eccentricity) b(t a part of the We&tern tradition+ 0ante i& the be&t e,ample+ "lanco) however) wa& completely different from S(n Stone+ ir&t I had the idea for the poem+ I made note& and even drew &ome dia%ram& that were in&pired) more or le&&) by Tibetan mandala&+ I conceived it a& a &patial poem that wo(ld corre&pond to the fo(r point& on the compa&&) the fo(r primary color&) etcetera+ It wa& diffic(lt beca(&e poetry i& a temporal art+ A& if to prove it) the word& them&elve& wo(ldnLt come+ I had to call them and) even tho(%h it may &eem ILm e,a%%eratin%) invoke them+ #ne day) I wrote the fir&t line&+ A& wa& to be e,pected they were abo(t word&) how they appear and di&appear+ After tho&e fir&t ten line&) the poem be%an to flow with relative ea&e+ #f co(r&e) there were) a& (&(al) an%(i&hin% period& of &terility followed by other& of fl(idity+ The architect(re of "lanco i& more &harply defined than that of S(n Stone) more comple,) richer+ INTER'IEWER So yo( defy Ed%ar Allan PoeL& in.(nction a%ain&t the lon% poemH PA6 With %reat reli&h+ ILve written other lon% poem&) like A 0raft of Shadow& and !arta de creencia) which mean& >letter of faith+? The fir&t i& the monolo%(e of memory and it& invention&Mmemory chan%e& and recreate& the pa&t a& it revive& it+ In that way) it tran&form& the pa&t into the pre&ent) into pre&ence+ !arta de creencia i& a cantata where different voice& conver%e+ "(t) like S(n Stone) itL& &till a linear compo&ition+ INTER'IEWER When yo( write a lon% poem) do yo( &ee yo(r&elf a& part of an ancient traditionH PA6 The lon% poem in modern time& i& very different from what it wa& in antiO(ity+ Ancient poem&) epic& or alle%orie&) contain a %ood deal of &t(ffin%+ The %enre allowed and even demanded it+ "(t the modern lon% poem tolerate& neither &t(ffin% nor tran&ition&) for &everal rea&on&+ ir&t) with inevitable e,ception& like Po(ndL& !anto&) beca(&e o(r lon% poem& are &imply not a& lon% a& tho&e of the ancient&+ Second) beca(&e o(r lon% poem& contain two antithetical O(alitie&5 the development of the lon% poem and the inten&ity of the &hort poem+ ItL& very diffic(lt to mana%e+ Act(ally) itL& a new %enre+ And thatL& why I admire Eliot5 hi& lon% poem& have the &ame inten&ity and concentration a& &hort poem&+ INTER'IEWER I& the proce&& of writin% en.oyable or fr(&tratin%H

PA6 Writin% i& a painf(l proce&& that reO(ire& h(%e effort and &leeple&& ni%ht&+ In addition to the threat of writerL& block) there i& alway& the &en&ation that fail(re i& inevitable+ Nothin% we write i& what we wi&h we co(ld write+ Writin% i& a c(r&e+ The wor&t part of it i& the an%(i&h that precede& the act of writin%Mthe ho(r&) day&) or month& when we &earch in vain for the phra&e that t(rn& the &pi%ot that make& the water flow+ #nce that fir&t phra&e i& written) everythin% chan%e&Mthe proce&& i& enthrallin%) vital) and enrichin%) no matter what the final re&(lt i&+ Writin% i& a ble&&in%K INTER'IEWER 9ow and why doe& an idea &ei*e yo(H 9ow do yo( decide if it i& pro&e or poetryH PA6 I donLt have any hardGandGfa&t r(le& for thi&+ or pro&e) it wo(ld &eem that the idea come& fir&t) followed by a de&ire to develop the idea+ #ften) of co(r&e) the ori%inal idea chan%e&) b(t even &o the e&&ential fact remain& the &ame5 pro&e i& a mean&) an in&tr(ment+ "(t in the ca&e of poetry) the poet become& the in&tr(ment+ Who&eH ItL& hard to &ay+ Perhap& lan%(a%e+ I donLt mean a(tomatic writin%+ or me) the poem i& a premeditated act+ "(t poetry flow& from a p&ychic well related to lan%(a%e) that i&) related to the c(lt(re and memory of a people+ An ancient) imper&onal &prin% intimately linked to verbal rhythm+ INTER'IEWER "(t doe&nLt pro&e have a rhythm a& wellH PA6 Pro&e doe& have a rhythm) b(t that rhythm i& not it& con&tit(tive element a& it i& in poetry+ 8etL& not conf(&e metric& with rhythm5 meter may be a manife&tation of rhythm) b(t it i& different beca(&e it ha& become mechanical+ Which i& why) a& Eliot &(%%e&t&) from time to time meter ha& to ret(rn to &poken) everyday lan%(a%e) which i& to &ay) to the ori%inal rhythm& every lan%(a%e ha&+ INTER'IEWER 'er&e and pro&e are) therefore) &eparate entitie&H PA6 Rhythm link& ver&e to pro&e5 one enriche& the other+ The rea&on why Whitman wa& &o &ed(ctive wa& preci&ely beca(&e of hi& &(rpri&in% f(&ion of pro&e and poetry+ A f(&ion prod(ced by rhythm+ The pro&e poem i& another e,ample) altho(%h it& power& are more limited+ #f co(r&e) bein%

pro&aic in poetry can be di&a&tro(&) a& we &ee in &o many inept poem& in >free ver&e? every day+ A& to the infl(ence of poetry on pro&eM.(&t think abo(t !hatea(briand) Nerval) or Pro(&t+ In Eoyce) the bo(ndary between pro&e and poetry &ometime& completely di&appear&+ INTER'IEWER !an yo( alway& keep that bo(ndary &harpH PA6 I try to keep them &eparate) b(t it doe&nLt alway& work+ A pro&e piece) witho(t my havin% to think abo(t it) can become a poem+ "(t ILve never had a poem t(rn into an e&&ay or a &tory+ In &ome book&MEa%le or S(nH and The Monkey BrammarianMILve tried to brin% the pro&e ri%ht (p to the border with poetry) I donLt know with how m(ch &(cce&&+ INTER'IEWER WeLve talked abo(t premeditation and revi&ion5 how doe& in&piration relate to themH PA6 In&piration and premeditation are two pha&e& in the &ame proce&&+ Premeditation need& in&piration and viceGver&a+ ItL& like a river5 the water can only flow between the two bank& that contain it+ Witho(t premeditation) in&piration .(&t &catter&+ "(t the role of premeditationMeven in a refle,ive %enre like the e&&ayMi& limited+ A& yo( write) the te,t become& a(tonomo(&) chan%e&) and &omehow force& yo( to follow it+ The te,t alway& &eparate& it&elf from the a(thor+ INTER'IEWER Then why revi&eH PA6 In&ec(rity+ No do(bt abo(t it+ Al&o a &en&ele&& de&ire for perfection+ I &aid that all te,t& have their own life) independent of the a(thor+ The poem doe&nLt e,pre&& the poet+ It e,pre&&e& poetry+ ThatL& why it i& le%itimate to revi&e and correct a poem+ Je&) and at the &ame time re&pect the poet who wrote it+ I mean the poet) not the man we were then+ I wa& that poet) b(t I wa& al&o &omeone el&eMthat fi%(re we talked abo(t earlier+ The poet i& at the &ervice of hi& poem&+ INTER'IEWER "(t .(&t how m(ch revi&in% do yo( doH 0o yo( ever feel a work i& complete) or i& it abandonedH PA6

I revi&e ince&&antly+ Some critic& &ay too m(ch) and they may be ri%ht+ "(t if thereL& a dan%er in revi&in%) there i& m(ch more dan%er in not revi&in%+ I believe in in&piration) b(t I al&o believe that weLve %ot to help in&piration) re&train it) and even contradict it+ INTER'IEWER Thinkin% a%ain on the relation&hip between in&piration and revi&ion) did yo( ever attempt the kind of a(tomatic writin% the &(rreali&t& recommended in the fir&t &(rreali&t manife&toH PA6 I did e,periment with >a(tomatic writin%+? ItL& very hard to do+ Act(ally) itL& impo&&ible+ No one can write with hi& mind blank) not thinkin% abo(t what heL& writin%+ #nly Bod co(ld write a real a(tomatic poem beca(&e only for Bod are &peakin%) thinkin%) and actin% the &ame thin%+ If Bod &ay&) >A hor&eK? a hor&e immediately appear&+ "(t a poet ha& to reinvent hi& hor&e) that i&) hi& poem+ 9e ha& to think it) and he ha& to make it+ All the a(tomatic poem& I wrote d(rin% the time of my friend&hip with the &(rreali&t& were tho(%ht and written with a certain deliberation+ I wrote tho&e poem& with my eye& open+ INTER'IEWER 0o yo( think "reton wa& &erio(& when he advocated a(tomatic writin%H PA6 Perhap& he wa&+ I wa& e,tremely fond of Andr- "reton) really admired him+ ItL& no e,a%%eration to &ay he wa& a &olar fi%(re beca(&e hi& friend&hip emitted li%ht and heat+ Shortly after I met him) he a&ked me for a poem for a &(rreali&t ma%a*ine+ I %ave him a pro&e poem) >Maripo&a de ob&idiana?Mit all(de& to a preG!ol(mbian %odde&&+ 9e read it over &everal time&) liked it) and decided to p(bli&h it+ "(t he pointed o(t one line that &eemed weak+ I reread the poem) di&covered he wa& ri%ht) and removed the phra&e+ 9e wa& charmed) b(t I wa& conf(&ed+ So I a&ked him) What abo(t a(tomatic writin%H 9e rai&ed hi& leonine head and an&wered witho(t chan%in% e,pre&&ion5 That line wa& a .o(rnali&tic intromi&&ion + + + INTER'IEWER ItL& c(rio(&) #ctavio) how often a ten&ion allow& yo( to find yo(r own &pecial placeMthe :nited State& and Me,ico) the pach(co and An%loGAmerican &ociety) &olit(de and comm(nion) poetry and pro&e+ 0o yo( yo(r&elf &ee a ten&ion between yo(r e&&ay& and yo(r poetryH PA6 If I &tart to write) the thin% I love to write mo&t) the thin% I love mo&t to create) i& poetry+ I wo(ld m(ch rather be remembered for two or three &hort poem& in &ome antholo%y than a& an e&&ayi&t+ 9owever) &ince I am a modern and live in a cent(ry that believe& in rea&on and e,planation) I find I am in a tradition of poet& who in one way or another have written defen&e& of poetry+ E(&t

think of the Renai&&ance and then a%ain of the romantic&MShelley) Word&worth in the preface to 8yrical "allad&+ Well) now that ILm at the end of my career) I want to do two thin%&5 to keep on writin% poetry and to write another defen&e of poetry+ INTER'IEWER What will it &ayH PA6 ILve .(&t written a book) The #ther 'oice) abo(t the &it(ation of poetry in the twentieth cent(ry+ When I wa& yo(n%) my %reat idol& were poet& and not noveli&t&Meven tho(%h I admired noveli&t& like Pro(&t or 8awrence+ Eliot wa& one of my idol&) b(t &o were 'al-ry and Apollinaire+ "(t poetry today i& like a &ecret c(lt who&e rite& are celebrated in the catacomb&) on the frin%e& of &ociety+ !on&(mer &ociety and commercial p(bli&her& pay little attention to poetry+ I think thi& i& one of &ocietyL& di&ea&e&+ I donLt think we can have a %ood &ociety if we donLt al&o have %ood poetry+ ILm &(re of it+ INTER'IEWER Televi&ion i& bein% critici*ed a& the r(ination of twentiethGcent(ry life) b(t yo( have the (niO(e opinion that televi&ion will be %ood for poetry a& a ret(rn to the oral tradition+ PA6 Poetry e,i&ted before writin%+ E&&entially) it i& a verbal art) that enter& (& not only thro(%h o(r eye& and (nder&tandin% b(t thro(%h o(r ear& a& well+ Poetry i& &omethin% &poken and heard+ ItL& al&o &omethin% we &ee and write+ In that we &ee the importance in the #riental and A&ian tradition& of calli%raphy+ In the We&t) in modern time&) typo%raphy ha& al&o been importantMthe ma,im(m e,ample in thi& wo(ld be Mallarm-+ In televi&ion) the a(ral a&pect of poetry can .oin with the vi&(al and with the idea of movementM&omethin% book& donLt have+ 8et me e,plain5 thi& i& a barely e,plored po&&ibility+ So ILm not &ayin% televi&ion will mean poetryL& ret(rn to an oral tradition b(t that it co(ld be the be%innin% of a tradition in which writin%) &o(nd) and ima%e& will (nite+ Poetry alway& (&e& all the mean& of comm(nication the a%e offer& it5 m(&ical in&tr(ment&) printin%) radio) record&+ Why &ho(ldnLt it try televi&ionH WeLve %ot to take a chance+ INTER'IEWER Will the poet alway& be the permanent di&&identH PA6 Je&+ We have all won a %reat battle in the defeat of the comm(ni&t b(rea(cracie& by them&elve& Mand thatL& the important thin%5 they were defeated by them&elve& and not by the We&t+ "(t thatL& not eno(%h+ We need more &ocial .(&tice+ reeGmarket &ocietie& prod(ce (n.(&t and very &t(pid &ocietie&+ I donLt believe that the prod(ction and con&(mption of thin%& can be the

meanin% of h(man life+ All %reat reli%ion& and philo&ophie& &ay that h(man bein%& are more than prod(cer& and con&(mer&+ We cannot red(ce o(r live& to economic&+ If a &ociety witho(t &ocial .(&tice i& not a %ood &ociety) a &ociety witho(t poetry i& a &ociety witho(t dream&) witho(t word&) and mo&t importantly) witho(t that brid%e between one per&on and another that poetry i&+ We are different from the other animal& beca(&e we can talk) and the &(preme form of lan%(a%e i& poetry+ If &ociety aboli&he& poetry it commit& &pirit(al &(icide+ INTER'IEWER I& yo(r e,ten&ive critical &t(dy of the &eventeenthGcent(ry Me,ican n(n Sor E(ana In-& de la !r(* a kind of pro.ection of the pre&ent onto the pa&tH PA6 In part) b(t I al&o wanted to recover a fi%(re I con&ider e&&ential not only for Me,ican& b(t for all of the America&+ At fir&t) Sor E(ana wa& b(ried and for%otten/ then &he wa& di&interred and m(mmified+ I wanted to brin% her back into the li%ht of day) free her from the wa, m(&e(m+ SheL& alive and ha& a %reat deal to tell (&+ She wa& a %reat poet) the fir&t in a lon% line of %reat 8atin American women poet&MletL& not for%et that Babriela Mi&tral from !hile wa& the fir&t 8atin American writer to win the Nobel Pri*e+ Sor E(ana wa& al&o an intellect(al of the fir&t rank =which we canLt &ay for Emily 0ickin&on@ and a defender of womenL& ri%ht&+ She wa& p(t on a pede&tal and prai&ed) then per&ec(ted and h(miliated+ I .(&t had to write abo(t her+ INTER'IEWER inally) whither #ctavio Pa*H Where do yo( %o from hereH PA6 WhereH I a&ked my&elf that O(e&tion when I wa& twenty) a%ain when I wa& thirty) a%ain when I wa& forty) fifty + + + I co(ld never an&wer it+ Now I know &omethin%5 I have to per&i&t+ That mean& live) write) and face) like everyone el&e) the other &ide of every lifeMthe (nknown+ Share on printPRINT | Share on twitterTWITTER | Share on facebook A!E"##$ | More Sharin% Service&More |'iew a man(&cript pa%e Jo( mi%ht al&o en.oy Eame& Ellroy) The Art of iction No+ I31 Pablo Ner(da) The Art of Poetry No+ 14 Eohn Irvin%) The Art of iction No+ 2;