Let's Talk Bitcoin

Episode 94
Privacy and the Arts
Participants:
Adam B. Levine ABL! " #ost
$tephanie %&rphy $%! " 'o(host
)ritov Atlas )A! " a&thor* Anonymo&s Bitcoin Book
+oss %int,er +%! " %&sician https:--..../ace0ook.com-rossmint,er0and!
Peter Todd PT! ( 'hie/ $cientist o/ the %astercoin /o&ndation
ABL: Today is %arch 11
nd
* 1234. This is episode 94. This pro4ram is intended /or
in/ormational and ed&cational p&rposes only. 'ryptoc&rrency is a ne. /ield o/ st&dy.
'ons&lt yo&r local /&t&rist* la.yer* do4 trainer* interior decorator* 0ea&tician and colorist
0e/ore makin4 any decisions .hatsoever /or yo&rsel/.
5elcome to the Let's Talk Bitcoin* a t.ice(.eekly sho. a0o&t the ideas* people* and
pro6ects 0&ildin4 the di4ital economy and the /&t&re o/ money. %y name is Adam B.
Levine* and today* .e're lookin4 at the privacy o/ Bitcoin in its vario&s applications.
7irst* $tephanie %&rphy sat do.n .ith )ritov Atlas* a&thor o/ the recent Anonymo&s
Bitcoin Book. teaser 8&ote " )A: 5hen yo& &se Bitcoin privately* yo&'re helpin4 o&t the
people yo& do 0&siness .ith* as .ell.! They talk privacy* sec&rity* and some o/ the myths
and le4ends o/ each in the .orld o/ Bitcoin.
At the end o/ 9an&ary : ca&4ht &p .ith m&sician +oss %int,er to talk cryptoc&rrency /or
the /ans* 4ive him my e;planation o/ this m&sician(coin concept that takes the LTBcoin
model and applies it to individ&al ensi4n m&sicians* and the di//erence 0et.een <o4e and
Bitcoin. teaser 8&ote " +%: :t 6&st made me /eel 4ood. : like to see the interactions o/ the
people on the s&0reddit. : like .hat people .ere talkin4 a0o&t and : .anted to 0e a part o/
it.!
7inally* :'m 6oined 0y Peter Todd* chie/ scientist o/ the %astercoin 7o&ndation to talk
stealth addresses /or yo& and me. teaser 8&ote " PT: :t makes it easier /or yo& to do the
ri4ht thin4 .ith re4ard to privacy. =o&r Bitcoin address* .hatever yo& do .ith it* is p&0licly
visi0le. =o& are linkin4 in/ormation a0o&t yo&r transactions. =o& are essentially sayin4
alri4ht* : did this transaction and : did this transaction. Potentially* : did a .hole 0&nch o/
'em.! >ot to 0e missed.
?&ick sho&t(o&t to the 'oin$cr&m London(0ased %eet&p 4ro&p. They're p&ttin4 on a 0i4
Bitcoin de0ate event on April @
th
and are lookin4 /or 0oth attendees and speakers. Aisit
Letstalk0itcoin.com-op /or more details.
En6oy the sho..
$%: This is $tephanie %&rphy /rom Let's Talk Bitcoin and .e are here at the Let's Talk
Bitcoin L&nch %eet&p at the 7ire.ill 'a/e in the Lost Pines #otel. :'m here .ith )ritov
Atlas. #i* )ritov.
)A: #i. Bood to 0e here.
$%: )ritov is a /riend o/ mine and he came to the %eet&p* and :'m really 4lad to see him*
0&t he also has a really important and cool pro6ect that he's .orkin4 on that : really .anted
to share .ith the a&dience 0eca&se this is somethin4 that .e talk a0o&t a lot in the Bitcoin
.orld. 5here's the /&t&re o/ Bitcoin 4oin4C Are .e 4oin4 to a /&t&re .here everythin4 is
tracked and .e're 4oin4 to 0e coin(validated and scr&tini,ed* and all o/ o&r /inances are
4oin4 to 0e o&t there in the open /or stalker e;(h&s0ands and creepy 4overnments to look
atC (Dr* are .e 4oin4 to retain control over o&r /inancial privacy* and are .e 4oin4 to
act&ally have the po.er to do .hat : think Bitcoin intended* .hich is empo.erEin4F people
over their o.n /inances. )ritov has .ritten a 0ook called the Anonymo&s Bitcoin Book* is
that ri4htC
)A: That's ri4ht* yeah.
$%: Tell me a little a0o&t the 0ook and .hy yo& decided to .rite it.
)A: 5hat inspired me to .rite the 0ook .as " : .as seein4 a lot o/ /olk lore a0o&t Bitcoin
and its anonymity and the level o/ privacy yo& .o&ld 4et .ith Bitcoin. :7 yo& look at ne.s
articles or look at /or&m posts* yo&'ll see a lot o/ people sayin4 Bitcoin is anonymo&s
c&rrency and st&// like that " and especially .hen it comes to thin4s like $ilk +oad " i/
yo& .anted to mis(characteri,e Bitcoin* the /irst thin4 they'll trot o&t is that it's an
anonymo&s c&rrency 0ein4 &sed 0y criminals to 0&y dr&4s and st&// like that. +eally* the
desi4n o/ Bitcoin is pretty open. : think somethin4 that people .o&ld /ind s&rprisin4 is that*
in many .ay* Bitcoin has less /inancial privacy than the le4acy 0ankin4 system they're
comin4 o&t o/. :/ yo& 4et a paycheck in the mail /rom yo&r 0oss* yo& don't e;pect that he's
4oin4 to 0e trackin4 .hat yo&'re spendin4 yo&r money on: .hat kind o/ 4roceries yo&'re
0&yin4* .hat yo&'re 0&yin4 at 'A$ " 0&t somethin4 like that co&ld potentially happen .ith
Bitcoin* dependin4 on ho. people /ollo. 0est practices /or privacy and so /orth. $ince it's
a nascent technolo4y* people have al.ays had a di//ic&lty .ith privacy and technolo4y*
and they tend to do .hatever comes easiest. :/ yo& don't make privacy easy* then they
.on't &se thin4s in the most private .ay. Bitcoin doesn't make it that easy to &se it in a
private .ay. There's a spectr&m o/ privacy yo& can have .ith Bitcoin* and on the e;treme
end yo& can have a very hi4h level o/ anonymity* 0&t ri4ht no. the de/a&lt and the .ay
people are &sin4 Bitcoin is that " they're not 4ettin4 a .hole lot o/ /inancial privacy o&t o/
that. : .anted to .rite a 0ook /or people .here* i/ they decide they " : .anted to /irst
ed&cate them a0o&t .hat the state o/ privacy is ri4ht no.* .hat it's 4oin4 to look like* .hat
yo&r privacy's 4oin4 to look like i/ yo& contin&e to &se Bitcoin in the .ay that most people
are &sin4 it* and then : .anted to 4ive them a very strai4ht(/or.ard* leavin4(nothin4(&p(to(
the(ima4ination approach to ho. to &se Bitcoin in a very anonymo&s kind o/ /ashion* and
4et a lot o/ /inancial privacy o&t o/ the c&rrency.
$%: (And yo& have a 0ack4ro&nd in comp&ter sec&rity* ri4htC
)A: =eah* that's ri4ht. :'ve 0een a comp&ter sec&rity researcher and cons&ltant /or a
n&m0er o/ years* and : recently 6&st 8&it my 6o0 to /oc&s /&ll(time on .ritin4 a0o&t Bitcoin
and privacy.
$%: +i4ht* so can yo& 4ive me an e;ample o/ perhaps ho. a typical Bitcoin &ser mi4ht
&se Bitcoin and it co&ld 0e totally tracea0le* and they mi4ht not even kno. a0o&t itC
)A: $&re. : 4ave a talk at the con/erence the other day* and : sort o/ 4ave this hypothetical
scenario .here there's t.o people. Dne o/ them sends a tip to the other in Bitcoin* and :
.as descri0in4 ho. this .o&ld look on the 0lockchain. The 0lockchain is this p&0lic led4er
o/ all the Bitcoin transactions. 5e don't have anythin4 like that /or cash " there's no led4er
o/ cash transactions* .hich is part o/ the reason .hy cash can 0e so anonymo&s. ($o* the
.ay that these transactions sho. &p on the 0lockchain " o/ten* .e learn o/ peoples'
identity. Addresses kind o/ 4et associated .ith one another* and partic&larly i/ there's
somethin4 like .here they don't have eno&4h 0itcoin in one o/ their Bitcoin addresses to
send the total they .ant to send to the other person* they have to pool to4ether /rom
m&ltiple acco&nts. A lot o/ time* their Bitcoin client .ill do this a&tomatically /or them.
$%: ($o* /or instance* i/ yo& have 0lo4 or T.itter acco&nt* or somethin4* people co&ld say
okay* .ell .e kno. )ritov o.ns this address* and on the 0lockchain* there are o&tp&ts
/rom that address that are 4oin4 to other chan4e addresses* so those m&st also 0elon4 to
him* too* ri4htC
)A: =eah* e;actly ( chan4e addresses or addresses 0ein4 pooled to4ether in order to 4et
&p to a total yo& .ant to send... so 0asically* .hat's happenin4 on the 0lockchain is there's
this incredi0le 4ra/t o/ people's Bitcoin addresses* and they don't see this happenin4. :t's
somethin4 that's 4oin4 on 0ehind the scenes and it's an incredi0le data(minin4 tool /or
.hoever .ants to mine it* .hether it's corporations or 4overnments* or 6&st creepy(snoopy
people .ho .ant to /ind o&t .hat yo&'re doin4. =o&'re not a0le to see the /&ll e//ect o/ yo&r
/inances* 0&t i/ yo& deal .ith somethin4 like cash or .ritin4 checks or .hatever* yo& kno.
e;actly .ho it's 4oin4 to* .ho's 4oin4 to 0e a0le to see the check that yo&'re handin4* or
.ho's standin4 aro&nd to .atch yo&r cash transaction* 0&t the .eird thin4 a0o&t Bitcoin is
it's like cash* 0&t the entire .orld's standin4 aro&nd to see the cash transaction. : think it's
really important " : consider it kind o/ a /inancial sel/(de/ense techni8&e* to learn ho. to
&se the c&rrency privately and retain some privacy .hen yo&'re doin4 yo&r /inances.
$%: 5hat a0o&t the ar4&ment that everyone .ill trot o&t: i/ yo& have nothin4 to hide* .hat
are yo& .orried a0o&tC
)A: That's a very old and common ar4&ment. There is this 4&y named <aniel 9. $olove
.ho .rote a paper a .hile a4o called :'ve Bot >othin4 to #ide and Dther
%is&nderstandin4s o/ Privacy. Breat paper. Basically* .hat he's sayin4 there is even i/
yo& don't have somethin4 to hide* people in all ta; 6&risdictions and all le4al 6&risdictions
still have some kind o/ le4al risk that they're 4oin4 to 0lamed " /or somethin4 they didn't
act&ally do. They have real pro0lems in co&rt systems all over the .orld* and .ith la.
en/orcement and so /orth " 6&stice systems. Even i/ that doesn't happen to yo&* it happens
to people all the time. ($o .hen yo& say : don't have anythin4 to hide* so : don't care
a0o&t s&rveillance or censorship or .hatever* yo&'re thro.in4 a 0&nch o/ other people
&nder the 0&s. 7&ndamentally* it's an act o/ antipathy to.ard yo&r /ello. h&man 0ein4 to
thro. that o&t as the standard ( that i/ people are not doin4 anythin4 0ad* they sho&ld not
0e .orried a0o&t these types o/ thin4s. :t has real(.orld conse8&ences /or lots o/ people*
very terri0le conse8&ences. : think that /inancial privacy is somethin4 .e sho&ld invest in
as a society. : think it's really important* .hether yo& .ant to have a /ree anarchic society
or i/ yo& .ant to have a healthy* democratic society " in 0oth cases* /inancial privacy is a
very* very important thin4.
$%: =o& said somethin4 in yo&r other talk the other day* that there .as a la. pro/essor
.ho thre. o&t a statistic sayin4 every ad&lt over the a4e o/ 3G co&ld 0e* i/ they .anted to*
indicted /or some kind o/ /ederal crime in the H$C
)A: =es. #ere's another statistic: in 123I* there .ere 42*222 ne. /ederal la.s that .ere
passed o nthe 0ooks* and .e don't act&ally kno. ho. many /ederal la.s there are. There
have 0een a n&m0er o/ le4al or4ani,ations that try to co&nt it* 0eca&se it's kind o/
important to kno. .hat the la.s .ere* and they .eren't a0le to. They tried /or a lon4 time
and 4ave &p. :/ yo& don't kno. ho. many la.s are o&t there* yo& can't stop yo&rsel/ /rom
0reakin4 them. 5hat this la. pro/essor is 0asically sayin4 is there're so many la.s on the
0ooks " some o/ them are m&t&ally contradictory " that people are 0reakin4 la.s all the
time that they're completely &na.are o/* and yet the standard .e have in o&r society is
i4norance o/ the la. is no e;c&se. %ean.hile* there's no one .ho kno.s all the la.s*
ri4htC That's kind o/ a dan4ero&s com0ination o/ principles to 4o 0y. :t means that really
anyone can 4et na00ed i/ they have the mis/ort&ne o/ 4ettin4 on the .ron4 side o/
someone.
$%: (Dr .hat's to stop somethin4 that's not c&rrently ille4al /rom 0ecomin4 ille4al in the
/&t&re and the en/orcement 0ein4 applied retroactively .hen there's this nice historical
record in the 0lochcainC
)A: =eah* that happens all the time. :t happened to %tBo;* /or instance. Their /inancial
tro&0les " they had incompetence at their leadership level* 0&t their /inancial tro&0les
started .hen they had /ive million dollars sei,ed /rom the H$ 4overnment /or /illin4 o&t
some paper.ork in the incorrect .ay and doin4 it in a .ay that .as pretty m&ch /ine at the
time .hen they /illed o&t the paper.ork* 0&t then there .as some r&le that .as chan4ed
a/ter the /act* or some clari/ication that .as 4iven a0o&t these very ne0&lo&s r&les a/ter
the /act* and they .eren't a0le to receive the ne.s o/ this chan4e* 4o 0ack* and look at
their paper.ork and make the chan4e* and they lost /ive million dollars as a res&lt* .hich
really 4ot the 0all rollin4 on the collapse o/ %tBo;. : think this is somethin4 that's important
to all Bitcoin &sers 0eca&se in a lot o/ places in the .orld* 4overnments are not 4oin4 to
look &pon Bitcoin very /avora0ly. :n some places* there are 4oin4 to 0e 0ans or restrictions
" there are 4oin4 to 0e criminal char4es that are related to Bitcoin* so yo& don't .ant to 0e
one o/ the people that has the mis/ort&ne o/ p&ttin4 yo&r /inances o&t there on the
0lockchain and /indin4 o&t* later on* some le4islator decided that .hat yo& happened to
do* .hich .as recorded on the 0lockchain a /e. years a4o* .as* in /act* ille4al* and no.
yo& can 0e prosec&ted /or it* so this is .hy : think it's kind o/ /inancial sel/(de/ense " not
only havin4 privacy /rom people that yo&'re doin4 0&siness .ith* and 6&st kind o/ snoopy*
creepy people or corporations* 0&t also keepin4 yo&rsel/ sa/e /rom the le4al aspect o/
thin4s as .ell.
$%: +i4ht. :t's not 6&st yo&rsel/* ri4htC :t is possi0le to associate " to incriminate " other
people .ith yo&r Bitcoin activity on the 0lockchain* is that ri4htC
)A: =eah* a0sol&tely. A/ter the talk* : had a developer come to me. #e's .orkin4 on some
acco&ntin4 so/t.are /or Bitcoin* /or ta; p&rposes and .hatnot* and he .as really
concerned. #e listened to the talk and he's 0een /ollo.in4 this st&// /or a .hile* and he
doesn't .ant to create a tool .here someone can come /or his records and &se that
in/ormation to 4o a/ter the c&stomers o/ his c&stomer's. That o0vio&sly makes his prod&ct
less attractive to the c&stomers and* 6&st /rom a moral standpoint* he doesn't .ant to 0e
partly responsi0le /or someone 0ein4 incriminated /or somethin4 that they don't deserve to
0e incriminated /or. :t's a real concern. :/ yo& care a0o&t yo&r /ello. h&man 0ein4* yo&
don't .ant to 0e participatin4 in a system .here they're " .here they come &nder some
kind o/ mis/ort&ne* and so .hen yo& &se Bitcoin privately* yo&'re helpin4 o&t the people
that yo& do 0&siness .ith* as .ell.
$%: Dkay. People have heard this and they're thinkin4 .ell* ho. do : &se Bitcoin
privatelyC D0vio&sly* there's a .hole 0ook yo&'ve .ritten on this* 0&t 4ive &s some 8&ick
tips on ho. people can 4et 4reater privacy .ith their Bitcoin &se.
)A: :t depends on .ho yo& think mi4ht 0e tryin4 to look into yo&r Bitcoin activities. : like to
&se this term /or people .ho mi4ht 0e lookin4 at the 0lockchain: : call them investi4ators
0eca&se it's a morally(a4nostic term: it co&ld 0e someone that's a thie/ .ho's lookin4 /or
tar4ets or it co&ld 0e someone .ho's tryin4 to recover 0itcoins /or someone .ho they
.ere stolen /rom* so .e don't really kno. .ho's 4oin4 to 0e lookin4 at this st&//* 0&t
dependin4 on .ho that person is that's investi4atin4 yo&* yo&'d have di//erent techni8&es.
5hat : recommend /or people is that yo& take the .orst(case scenario investi4ator into
investi4ation* and i/ yo& have that covered* then everyone else .ho co&ld possi0ly look
into yo&r /inances .ill also 0e covered in that sit&ation. :n the .orst(case investi4ator "
.o&ld 0e somethin4 like someone .orkin4 /or the mo0 .ho's tryin4 to track do.n tar4ets
/or the/t " somethin4 like that. They have millions o/ dollars o/ reso&rces* they're a0le to
hack into :$Ps and 4et lo4s /rom c&stomers' :nternet tra//ic and st&// like that* so : think
there're pro0a0ly t.o important cate4ories o/ tools. Dne is the a0ility to cover yo&r tracks
on side(channels: in/ormation a0o&t yo&r 0itcoin transactions. 7or instance* i/ someone is
to lo4 all the :nternet tra//ic o&t there " somethin4 like the >$A's P+:$% pro4ram* or
somethin4 alon4 those lines " yo& need to have some tool to hide the 4eo4raphic ori4in o/
yo&r :nternet tra//ic* so somethin4 like Tor or :1P.
$%: <oes a AP> .ork /or that* or noC
)A: A AP> is 4ood* 0&t all it does is 0asically /orce yo&r investi4ator to do some e;tra
.ork in order to 4et access to the lo4s* so it 6&st means that they'd have to hack into yo&r
AP> or other.ise o0tain lo4s /rom that AP> in order to 4et access to yo&r data as
opposed to 6&st 0ein4 a0le to 4et it directly /rom yo&r :$P or .hatever " so it 6&st adds one
step. :'d m&ch rather people &se somethin4 like Tor* .here there's no Tor person to 4o to
to 4et access to those lo4s " it's distri0&ted all over the .orld* so it's a decentrali,ed
sol&tion to privacy.
$%: :'ve heard that i/ yo& lo4 on to Tor* then lo4 into 7ace0ook .ith Tor* it mi4ht 0e pretty
easy to track yo&r identity on Tor. :s that ri4htC
)A: $&re. Tor is kind o/ a primitive tool. All it does is hide yo&r 4eo4raphic ori4ins o/ yo&r
:nternet tra//ic* 0&t there's still lots o/ .ays to correlate :nternet activity .ith yo&r person.
This is somethin4 : talk a0o&t in the 0ook* 0&t yo& kind o/ have to mana4e yo&r identities
on the :nternet. :/ yo& have* /or instance* a LocalBitcoins.com acco&nt that yo& al.ays lo4
into thro&4h Tor " .ell* i/ yo&'re &sin4 a .hole 0&nch o/ di//erent Bitcoin addresses .ith
that acco&nt and someone is a0le to 4et access to the LocalBitcoins.com lo4s* no.
they're a0le to identi/y a connection 0et.een that LocalBitcoins identity and all o/ the
addresses that are associated .ith that identity. There's kind o/ this identity mana4ement
yo& have to do in addition to &sin4 these tools. :'d like to see these tools 4et 0etter so they
can do this kind o/ identity mana4ement /or people* or make it very o0vio&s ho. that's
.orkin4 o&t* 0&t .e're not 8&ite there* yet. : think the 0est thin4 .e have is somethin4 like
a Tails lin&;* .here at least it's con/i4&rin4 Tor /or yo&* 0eca&se i/ yo& 6&st try to install Tor
on yo&r 5indo.s machine* or yo&r %ac machine* or .hatever* it's kind o/ complicated.
The comp&ters these days .ork in very complicated .ays* so even i/ yo&'re doin4 all yo&r
.e0 0ro.sin4 thro&4h Tor* there's all these .eird messa4es that are 0ein4 sent o&t* like
<>$ 8&eries and so /orth. :/ yo&'re &sin4 it all in one packa4e like Tails lin&;* then it kind
o/ does all that st&// /or yo&* 0&t yo& still have to do yo&r o.n identity mana4ement.
$%: 5hat a0o&t mi;in4C
)A: %i;in4 is very important. :t's a .ay o/ dealin4 .ith the openness o/ the 0lockchain.
%i;in4 is " : kind o/ think o/ it like sh&//lin4 cards. =o& .ant to make s&re yo& 4et a mi;er
that is doin4 a 4ood 6o0 o/ sh&//lin4 the cards. :/ yo&'ve ever played cards .ith some
/riends... yo& have some /riends that are very 4ood at sh&//lin4 " they 0rid4e the cards
and they look like Ae4as dealers " and then yo& have some /riends .ho don't kno. .hat
the heck they're doin4... they kind o/ c&t the deck once and they take a card and they stick
it in the middle. They deal it o&t and yo&'re like* d&de* : 4ot the same hand e;cept /or this
one card. =o&'re terri0le at this. 5hen it comes to yo&r /inancial privacy* yo& de/initely
.ant to have the /riend .ho's like the Ae4as dealer and not the kind o/ c&ttin4(the(deck
kind o/ person. >ot only do yo& have to &se 0itcoin mi;ers* 0&t yo& also have to kno.
.hich ones to &se and ho. to &se them. :t's somethin4 that : talk a0o&t in(depth in the
0ook and somethin4 : plan on de/initely coverin4 a lot more* coverin4 revie.s o/ mi;ers
and talkin4 a0o&t .hich kinds o/ mi;in4 technolo4ies are s&perior.
pa&se se4ment "
AdC: This is )ris 9oseph* 0rin4in4 yo& ne.s on >JT* the /irst tr&e second(4eneration
c&rrency /or %arch 11
nd
* 1234. >JT has not 0een very /riendly to traditional miners
0eca&se it does not &se the same proo/(o/(.ork system that many other altcoins do. This
.eek* t.o ne. minin4 pools have appeared that address this: hashrate.or4 and p22l.or4.
Both have created pools that mine the most pro/ita0le altcoins and then do pool payo&ts
in >JT. Both systems are in 0eta* 0&t 0oth are .orkin4 rather .ell. :n other ne.s*
disc&ssions on the >JT asset e;chan4e have 4otten a little more philosophical as the
comm&nity de0ates /ees and .onders i/ decentrali,ed asset tradin4 may make market
a0&se 0y 0ots and hi4h(/re8&ency traders a thin4 o/ the past. 7or a more 4eneral
in/ormation on >JT* head to >JTcrypto.or4 or my>JT.or4 and stay t&ned /or more ne.s
on >JT on the ne;t Let's Talk Bitcoin 0roadcast.
&npa&se se4ment "
)A: The Bitcoin mi;er is a tool yo& can &se to kind o/ hide the path o/ yo&r 0itcoins on the
0lockchain.
$%: This is trackin4 the speci/ic 0itcoins* not the Bitcoin addressesC
)A: =o&'ll have 0itcoins that are at a partic&lar address and yo& can keep sendin4 them to
ne. addresses. The pro0lem .ith 6&st sendin4 them to ne. and ne. addresses is that it's
pretty easy to /ollo. these paths alon4 the lines. %i;ers can &se a variety o/ techni8&es to
mess &p this path* 0asically. The .ay that the ori4inal mi;ers 0asically .orked .as " they
.ere centrali,ed mi;ers that had a .allet service* so yo&'d send them some 0itcoins* and
then they'd send yo& some other 0itcoins 0ack* and they'd 0asically do some o//(
0lockchain .here they say okay* 9ohnny sent me some 0itcoins /rom this address. :'m
4oin4 to send him 0itcoins /rom another address that has no relation to it on the
0lockchain and :'m 4oin4 to do my o.n data0ase to keep track o/ this acco&nt. :'ll char4e
him a little /ee to do this. This may or may not 0e totally e//ective* 0&t it's a .ay o/ 4ivin4
yo& a little 0it more privacy than 6&st &sin4 Bitcoin on a normal 0asis. %i;in4 is a0sol&tely
still chan4in4 rapidly as a technolo4y. The ne;t 4eneration o/ mi;ers is 4oin4 to 0e peer(
to(peer* decentrali,ed mi;in4. 5e have that 4oin4 on at 0lockchain.in/o .here their
shared(coin service* .hich is 0ased on 'oin9oin...
$%: <o yo& have to opt in to that* or is it an opt(o&t thin4C
)A: =o& have to opt in. They have a send screen* and yo& have to say : .ant to do a
shared coin send* as opposed to a re4&lar send. :t does cost a small amo&nt " they
char4e yo& a little /ee* 6&st /or transaction /ees* 0asically. =o& .ant to have m&ltiple
ro&nds o/ this* so 0asically yo&'ll 0e doin4 &p to ten transactions in order to 6&st do the one
send as opposed to 6&st a normal send* and yo&'ll 0e doin4 it .ith other 0lockchain.in/o
c&stomers .ho are &sin4 the shared coin service.
$%: Dkay* so i/ the only people .ho opt(in to shared coin are people .ho are concerned
a0o&t their privacy 0eca&se they do have somethin4 to hide* is that a pro0lemC
)A: That is a pro0lem* 0eca&se .e kno. /rom other areas that have privacy technolo4y
that .hen people need to opt(in in order to &se it* most people a0sol&tely .ill not &se it.
:t's a little 0it o/ e;tra .ork* the 4raphical inter/ace is /or this privacy technolo4y tends to
0e kind o/ cl&nky and a.k.ard 0eca&se there's not eno&4h c&stomers to incentivi,e them
to desi4n this really clean* easy(to(&se inter/ace /or &s. =o& 4et really lo. participation and
the pro0lem .ith that is Bitcoin privacy /&ndamentally comes do.n to anonymity. =o&
need to 0e a0le to do anonymo&s transactions. =o& need to 0e a0le to o.n 0itcoins
anonymo&sly. Anonymity is all a0o&t participation. The more people .ho participate in an
anonymity system* the more anonymity everyone has* so lo. participation also means
.eaker privacy /or the people .ho are act&ally optin4 into this system.
$%: Dkay* so optin4 into privacy(enhancin4 /eat&res is act&ally a /orm o/ activism* to take
Bitcoin as a .hole to a more private and sec&re space* ri4htC
)A: =eah* a0sol&tely. $ome.here to the Tor net.orks... Tor is all a0o&t people &sin4 each
others' :nternet connections as an ephemeral or temporary identity* and the more people
.ho &se Tor* the stron4er anonymity is /or all Tor &sers. $ome people are &sin4 Tor /or
really important thin4s like 0lo44in4 in a dictatorial re4ime* and .histle0lo.in4* and all that
kind o/ st&//* so it's really important they have 4ood privacy. People* /or a lon4 time* have
0een practicin4 activism 0y participatin4 in the Tor net.ork* r&nnin4 a Tor node* &sin4 Tor*
and so /orth* to help o&t these kinds o/ activists. : think the same thin4 applies to Bitcoin
privacy. =o& co&ld help o&t these activists and 6&st people in 4eneral .ho deserves
/inancial privacy. Every0ody deserves /inancial privacy* : think. 5hen yo& participate in
these systems* yo&'re helpin4 o&t yo&r /ello. h&man* as .ell. :t's de/initely a /orm o/
empathy and /reedom activism to participate in privacy systems .ith re4ards to
cryptoc&rrencies.
$%: Dkay* and .hat are some other .ays people can help p&sh Bitcoin /or.ard to.ard a
more privacy(preservin4 stat&sC
)A: : think the 0est thin4 .e can do in Bitcoin " the .ay that .e've had the most s&ccess
and p&shin4 /or its s&ccess " s&ccess/&l technolo4y " is 0y votin4 .ith yo&r .allet. :/ yo&
have the choice 0et.een a 0&nch o/ di//erent .allet services* pick the .allet that has the
0est privacy /eat&res. +i4ht no.* : think Blockchain.in/o is a very stron4 competitor .ith
their shared coin service .hich they're providin4 /or no /ee " they don't receive any /ees
on that* ri4ht no.. They &sed to and then they .ere like* .e hate coin validation. 5e
.ant to make it easier /or people to have private transactions* so they took the very 0rave
and no0le step o/ removin4 their /ees /or that service. ($o yo& .ant to pick a service like
that* or <ark.allet* or .hatever it is that has the 0est /eat&res. =o& can also let people
kno. yo& .ant to have these /eat&res " email to developers... .hen yo& introd&ce yo&r
/riends to Bitcoin* yo& can let them kno.* hey* there are these privacy concerns. =o& can
&se a service like 0lockchain.in/o 0eca&se they have these privacy /eat&res* so these are
all .ays o/ propa4atin4 the meme that Bitcoin privacy is important.
$%: 'ool. 9&st to s&m &p 0rie/ly " /or some0ody .ho's totally ne. to this and .ants to do
as m&ch as possi0le to preserve their privacy* .o&ld yo& say yo& recommend this
0lockchain.in/o .allet .ith the shared coin serviceC ( And 4ive a /e. other tips and 6&st let
people kno. .hat they can do /or a call to action...
)A: =eah. $hared coin is e;cellent. 9&st Boo4le aro&nd and search 'oin9oin* coin
validation... st&// like that. Bet a little in/ormed on .hat the state o/ these topics are. =o&
can* o/ co&rse* read my 0ook .here : cover these e;tensively as .ell. =o& see thin4s like
Tor.... Tor is act&ally.... i/ yo&'re 4onna &se shared coin* all yo& really need to do is
do.nload " in order to com0ine that .ith Tor " yo& can do.nload the Tor Bro.ser B&ndle*
and that makes it pretty simple. : cover that in the 0ook* 0&t people can /i4&re that o&t on
their o.n* o/ co&rse. ($o yeah* 6&st &sin4 these kinds o/ technolo4ies and tryin4 them o&t.
: think they're pretty easy to &se once yo& /i4&re o&t .hat they are and 4et acc&stomed to
them.
$%: (B&t yo& 6&st have to take that /irst step to opt in...
)A: =eah* a0sol&tely.
$%: =o&r .e0site is anonymo&s0itcoin0ook.com .here yo& have a lot o/ help/&l 0lo4
posts a0o&t cold stora4e* political iss&es* and all kinds o/ other thin4s* so people can 4o
there ( anonymo&0itcoin.com ( and order yo&r 0ook. :t's no. availa0le* ri4htC
)A: =eah* that's correct. There's the 0ook* a premi&m packa4e that 4ives yo& even more
in/ormation. =o& can also /ollo. me on T.itter at Kanonymo&scoin. :'m de/initely 4oin4 to
0e coverin4 this st&// e;tensively in the /&t&re* so more 0lo4 posts. :'m on the Bitcoin
Bro&p re4&larly* .hich is another sho. that : recommend people check o&t* .ith Andreas
and some other 4reat /olk.
$%: Alri4ht. Thanks so m&ch* )ritov. This .as 4reat.
)A: Thanks /or havin4 me.
End se4ment "
ABL: Today on Let's Talk Bitcoin* .e're 6oined 0y +oss %int,er o/ +ossmint,er0and.com.
+oss* yo&'re a m&sician and have 0een .orkin4 .ith cryptoc&rrencies /or a .hile. : really
thank yo& /or 6oinin4 &s today to share yo&r e;perience .ith Bitcoin.
+%: Thank yo&* Adam. :t's 4reat to 0e here.
ABL: #o. lon4 have yo& 0een makin4 m&sic and ho. lon4 have yo& 0een interested in
cryptoc&rrency* and .here did those thin4s overlapC
+%: :'ve 0een makin4 m&sic my .hole li/e. :'m 1L* no.. : started playin4 the sa;ophone
as an ei4ht(year(old* so it's 0een 8&ite a .hile. >o.* : sin4 mostly and prod&ce m&sic. :
heard a0o&t cryptoc&rrency /airly recently* act&ally... may0e only a0o&t a /e. months a4o*
and it really resonated .ith .hat : .as doin4. :'d 0een doin4 a lot o/ social media
advertisin4 to connect .ith people .ith my m&sic aro&nd the .orld. :'ve al.ays 0een
thinkin4 a0o&t " ho. sho&ld a m&sician 0e /airly compensated /or his .orkC 5hen :
started to learn a0o&t di4ital c&rrency and the di//erent options o&t there* it's like a li4ht
0&l0 .ent o// " like* this is the missin4 link to moneti,in4 in a /air .ay* the .ork the .ork
and the m&sic that :'m makin4 and creatin4.
ABL: 5hen yo& discovered that* .hat .as yo&r ne;t stepC 5hat .as yo&r /irst attempt at
&sin4 this to do thatC
+%: 7irst* it .as to investi4ate and to try to &nderstand Bitcoin and the other alt(
c&rrencies* and .hat kind o/ possi0ilities are o&t there. The /irst step is simply ( : 6&st p&t
my Bitcoin address* my <o4ecoin address to start acceptin4 donations on my .e0site.
That .as my /irst thin4 " it's pretty easy* too.
ABL: :nterestin4. =o& accept Bitcoin and yo& accept <o4ecoin. Those .ere the t.o
cryptoc&rrencies that yo& .ent toC
+%: That's .here : met E%a&tCFM :t co&ld chan4e. :t really co&ld. Litecoin too* may0e. :'m
still learnin4 a lot.
ABL: Let me ask " .hat .as the thin4 " &s&ally* .hen .e talk to someone and they
accept more than one cryptoc&rrency* it's Bitcoin and Litecoin 0eca&se those have 0een
kind o/ the 4old and silver analo4y that people like to &se. :s there anythin4 in partic&lar
.ith <o4ecoinC 5as it 6&st the time " it .as 4ettin4 0i4 and /&n to 0e involved .ithC #elp
me o&t here.
+%: :t .as 6&st the comm&nity. : .as in a certain place in my li/e and " :d&nno* it 6&st kind
o/ hit me. :t 6&st made me /eel 4ood. : like seein4 the interactions o/ people on the
s&0reddit. : like .hat people .ere talkin4 a0o&t and : .anted to 0e a part o/ it.
ABL: =o& .anted to s&pport it* 0asically* is .hat it so&nds like.
+%: : 6&st .anted to a part of it. -laughing- =eah. There .as the /irst <o4ecoin party .e
had* last .eek in >e. =ork 'ity* : think* and : let them &se my so&nd system. That .as at
the >=' Bitcoin 'enter. :t .as cool.
ABL: #o.'s that 4oin4C <o yo& notice any di//erence 0et.een the Bitcoin side o/ thin4s
and the <o4ecoin side o/ thin4s as /ar as a Bitcoin artist lookin4 /or rem&nerationC
+%: At this point* : think it's too soon to really tell. :'m c&rio&s to see " it's like a lot o/
people :'ve connected .ith so /ar* &n/ort&nately* haven't even heard o/ a di4ital c&rrency*
or kno. very little a0o&t it and they're not &sin4 it* yet. : 0elieve* once every0ody kno.s "
more people &nderstand .hat it is* and the potential* and .hat it's capa0le o/ doin4* then
:'ll 0e a0le to see some res&lts* more* 0eca&se ri4ht no.* i/ :'m not really tar4etin4 this
niche 4ro&p o/ di4ital c&rrency &sers* then it's hard to tell* ri4ht no..
ABL: Let's talk a0o&t that ri4ht no.. : think yo&'re 4oin4 .ith a tippin4 model* ri4htC =o&'re
&sin4 a tippin4 modelC
+%: +i4ht. +i4ht no.* it's 6&st a tippin4 model. A0sol&tely.
ABL: Dkay. : don't think that that's an end(4ame /or yo&. =o&'re not act&ally a4ainst sellin4
yo&r m&sic. This is 6&st a /irst stepC (Dr are yo& prod&cin4 yo&r m&sic* 4ivin4 it a.ay /or
/ree so yo& 4et the ma;im&m distri0&tion and then 6&st askin4 people to 4ive val&e /or the
val&e that they 4etC (5hich is very similar to .hat .e've done .ith Let's Talk Bitcoin and
o&r listeners...
+%: E;actly.
ABL: 5hat is it yo& hope to achieve .ith thisC Are yo& 6&st lookin4 /or /eed0ack* like hey*
: 4ot a 0&nch o/ tips. That means people like .hat :'m doin4. (Dr are yo& act&ally lookin4
to " .o&ld yo& like to live o// o/ these /&ndsC #o. .o&ld yo& like to see this develop* and
are tips the ideal vehicle /or this* or do yo& think this is kind o/ a stop(4apC This mi4ht 0e
kind o/ a lar4e 8&estion. -chuckles-
+%: :t mi4ht 0e a lar4er 8&estion* like " : think that's more o/ like ho. is the content
creator treated in societyC #o. do .e look at the artist in the...C : think* .ith the di4ital
c&rrency tippin4 0o; /or social media " /or T.itter* they're makin4 one /or 7ace0ook "
that's s&ch a 0i4 deal* 0eca&se :'ve connected .ith so many people /rom social media...
no. that this is capa0le* .here someone aro&dn the .orld can s&pport me in a small .ay*
instantly /rom their virt&al .allet to mine* that even is a 0i4 deal. There's this coin called
7lorin'oin " one o/ the developers act&ally spends a lot o/ time at the >=' Bitcoin
'enters. :t .as 9oseph 7iscella* and he had an idea .ith the protocol o/ the 7lorin'oin
.here yo& can send a messa4e .hen yo& send some0ody money* so yo& can also send*
say* yo&r email .ith yo&r money* and he has this idea called the 7lorinE;chan4e. ($o
0asically* as a m&sician* people have sometimes sent me their email* and :'ve sent them
my m&sic /or /ree* 0&t no.* the idea that they can send me some money A>< their email
in one deal* and then : 4et the money and : send my son4 to them* and there's no third
party plat/orm... like* there's no 0ank or iT&nes* or any other 4ro&p that 4ets their hands
on that* and that to me seems like a really 0i4 deal. That .o&ld 0e so cool* i/ there .ere
somethin4 like that.
ABL: ($o* some0ody .ants to order somethin4 /rom yo&* so it's like they take a 0&nch o/
coins and then .rap a messa4e aro&nd it and thro. it at yo&. =o& don't kno. necessarily
.ho thre. it at yo&* 0&t yo&'ve 4ot the messa4e so yo& kno. .here to send the thin4 in
ret&rn.
+%: =eahM :t's really cool. :t's like the virt&al... like i/ yo& came &p to me and 0o&4ht a '<
/rom me /or N@ and : 4ave this '< to yo& in person. :t's really person(to(person* virt&ally.
That's really cool.
ABL: That's really interestin4. 5e're act&ally 4oin4 to t&rn this aro&nd no.* +oss* 0eca&se
: think : have some ideas that :'d like yo& to ask me 8&estions a0o&t* 0&t really 8&ickly... :
.ant to tell yo& really 8&ickly* another thin4 yo& mi4ht .ant to check o&t /or yo&r m&sic* is
a site like 'oinLock* act&ally* .hich is kind o/ like a virt&al vendin4 machine .here yo& set
&p a contract once. =o&'ll &pload a son4* p&t the price that yo& .ant* the address that the
payment sho&ld 4o to* and yo& can distri0&te that .e0site that has all that in/ormation /or
it* and .henever some0ody 0&ys that /rom yo&* it sends yo&* : 0elieve it's 9GO o/ the
amo&nt. The site keeps 1O and that person 4ets to do.nload one copy in their 0ro.ser
.itho&t havin4 an acco&nt or lo44in4 in at all. +%: 5o.M! :t's really cool. There are all
these really interestin4* a&tomated tools. 5hat yo&'re sayin4 is 4reat* 0&t it's very man&al.
=o& have to send o&t a copy /or each one o/ these. ($o yo& co&ld do 0oth... any.ay* : 6&st
.anted to share that .ith yo&....
+%: :s that called 'oinLockC
ABL: =eah* it's called 'oinlock.com.
+%: :'m 4onna check that o&t.
ABL: +ecently* : talked a0o&t LTBcoin* .hich is a coin that .e're creatin4 /or the Let's Talk
Bitcoin net.ork .hich .e're 4oin4 to accept e;cl&sively /or advertisin4 and there're a
co&ple o/ other val&e(adds that yo&'ll 0e a0le to do .ith it that yo& .on't 0e a0le to do " or
it'll 0e m&ch cheaper to do .ith LTBcoin compared to 0itcoin or dollars. Dne o/ the other
really interestin4 &se cases /or this is artists .ho are ne. and &nsi4ned can essentially
&se this same model and create a coin that they 4&arantee they .ill accept /or their m&sic
movin4 /or.ard and they'll accept /or certain thin4s movin4 /or.ard. 7or a hi4h amo&nt o/
yo&r coin* yo& mi4ht have l&nch .ith them or somethin4 like that. :n the 0e4innin4* .hen
yo& create these* yo&'re 4oin4 to create them /or nothin4 0eca&se the val&e yo& im0&e in
them comes /rom the /act that people like yo&r m&sic or like .hatever it is yo&'re doin4
and have an interest in s&pportin4 and 0&yin4 it* and think it'll 0ecome more important in
the /&t&re. +%: 5oooo.M! E;actly. Beca&se all o/ these c&rrencies are de/lationary
c&rrencies* .here all o/ the money s&pply is created at once " and then it's 6&st an iss&e
o/ distri0&tin4 it over a period o/ time 0ased on .hatever makes sense /or .ith that
partic&lar coin* yo& can create stakeholders. ($o i/ yo& sell early '<s /or e;ample* yo&
co&ld incl&de a co&ple o/ yo&r coins .ith each '< that 4oes o&t and make all o/ those
people stakeholders. :/ yo& .anted to raise money* yo& co&ld sell some o/ those coins in
an a&ction sort(o/ environment* or sell them to people .ho really like to s&pport yo&*
0eca&se a4ain* they're not 6&st thro.in4 money at yo&* yo&'re act&ally 4ivin4 them
somethin4 val&a0le 0ack in ret&rn. D/ co&rse* i/ yo& /ail* they pro0a0ly .o&ldn't 0e .orth
anythin4* 0&t they .eren't .orth anythin4 to 0e4in .ith. :/ yo& s&cceed* yo& have all o/
these people .ho .ere vested in yo&r s&ccess and 4ain alon4 .ith yo&. :t's very
interestin4.
+%: That is a really cool idea* Adam* and thank yo& /or sharin4 that .ith me. : see it* and
" 4osh* yeah* that's really cool. : hope some0ody does that. : co&ld see some0ody
potentially doin4 that in the /&t&re... ho. /ar are yo& alon4 are yo& .ith yo&r LTBcoinC
ABL: : ori4inally tho&4ht : .as 4oin4 to have to create a ne. altcoin* 0&t .hat : discovered
is* act&ally* all the thin4s : .ant to do* : can do .ith &ser(created assets on one o/ these
other plat/orms like %astercoin or 'o&nterParty* or* event&ally* Ethere&m and Bitshares*
and thin4s like that. (And >JT also* : 0elieve* 6&st rolled o&t their asset e;chan4e* so all o/
this st&// .as impossi0le like three .eeks a4o* and no. there are m&ltiple plat/orms yo&
can do it on ri4ht no.. $o* yeah " no* a0sol&tely.
+%: 5o..
ABL: <id : 0lo. yo&r mindC
+%: =eah* yo& did* a little. :t's 6&st cool and interestin4 .hat yo& can do .ith these di4ital
c&rrencies. :t really is interestin4. :'m c&rio&s... .o&ld : do thatC : 4&ess " the st&// yo& 6&st
said is a little over my head. Even i/ : .as tryin4 " like* let's pretend : really don't kno. that
m&ch at all... is there like a site : can 4o to that : can... that : can like p&t my +oss %int,er
coin and press create " is that possi0le* yetC
ABL: There isM There is. There's a site called 'oinBen that .ill let yo& do that* 0&t the
pro0lem there* +oss... i/ yo& create an altcoin* yo&'re 0asically startin4 /rom the 4ro&nd
&p* and yo& can /ork anythin4 o&t there 0eca&se the cryptoc&rrency ecosystem is open(
so&rce* so any .ork that has 0een done in the open(so&rce* yo& can take /rom the c&rrent
iteration o/ it and create yo&r o.n copy and start 0&ildin4 /rom there. :t's very easy to
0ootstrap in /rom that side* 0&t .hat yo& need to do is mine. =o& need to act&ally have
people .ho are s&pportin4 and providin4 sec&rity to the net.ork* and essentially po.erin4
the transactional en4ine* .hereas .ith +oss%int,ercoin* may0e yo& .on't have that in the
0e4innin4* so it creates a sit&ation .here in the very 0e4innin4 o/ the coin* it's dan4ero&s
0eca&se someone can take it over and kind o/ have their .ay .ith it. 5ith these
metacoins* .hat they're essentially doin4 is " they're altcoins that're 0&ilt on top o/
Bitcoin* or they're 6&st altcoins themselves that have the a0ility to create other coins on top
o/ them thro&4h a simple &ser inter/ace that takes some.here 0et.een one and ten
min&tes. :t'd 0e literally like /illin4 o&t the name* p&ttin4 in the amo&nt that yo& .ant to
create* and then i/ there're any speci/ic r&les that're 4oin4 into the contract* yo& incl&de
that... so it 0ecomes less a0o&t the technical h&rdles and more a0o&t .hat the r&les are
/or yo&r c&rrency* ri4htC 5hat are the thin4s that're add val&e to yo&r c&rrency* and .hat
are the r&les &nder .hich they .ill 0e sold or distri0&ted to other people. 5e've 4otten
.ay o// co&rse here* clearly* 0&t : tho&4ht... it's hard to do ri4ht no.* 0eca&se no0ody's
done it* yet* 0&t some0ody's 4oin4 to do it. $ome0ody's 4oin4 to 0e /irst* and it's 4onna
happen in like the ne;t month.
+%: $&re. 9oseph's idea .ith the 7lorinE;chan4e .as like... there'd 0e many di//erent
artists sellin4 their m&sic* so : 4&ess " yeah* i/ it .asn't 6&st my 0and* 0&t like a record
la0el* and they all &sed one coin and may0e that .o&ld help that iss&e o/ some0ody
takin4 it over at the 0e4innin4* kind o/ 4ettin4 it o&t o/ the nascent sta4e o/ the coin &ntil a
more mat&re coin* so it's sa/er to &se.
ABL: : think .e're 4oin4 to see all kinds o/ thin4s... all kinds of things* and a lot o/ them
aren't pro0a0ly 4oin4 to .ork* 0&t some o/ them .ill.
+%: =eah. :t's 4reat. :/ yo& don't /ail* yo&'re never 4oin4 to achieve anythin4* so : think
.ith all this st&//* .e need to 6&st 4o ahead and make mistakes 0eca&se that's ho. .e
move ahead .ith all thin4sP technolo4y* and m&sic* too. =o& can't 0e a/raid to make
mistakes in m&sic i/ yo& .ant to 4et 0etter.
ABL: 5e're playin4 o&t .ith one o/ yo&r son4s* here.
+%: $o cool...
ABL: $o... +ossmint,er0and.com " any /inal comments hereC
+%: -laughing- >o. Thanks so m&ch /or havin4 me. :t's an honor to 0e on this sho.* and
this sho. is 4reat* so thanks* Adam.
ABL: Thanks to yo&* too. 5e'll see yo& ne;t time. EP+ note: the m&sic's pretty decentF
End se4ment "
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$tart se4ment "
ABL: Today* .e're 6oined 0y Peter Todd* a core Bitcoin developer and chie/ scientist o/ the
%astercoin 7o&ndation. Peter* thank yo& /or 6oinin4 me today on Let's Talk Bitcoin.
PT: #ey* yo&'re .elcome.
ABL: : listed t.o o/ yo&r pro6ects* 0&t yo&'re act&ally pretty proli/ic. : recently sa. yo&'re
4oin4 to 0e a&ditin4 the 'o&nterParty protocol. Are there any other pro6ects yo& .ant to
name(drop that yo& think people sho&ld kno. a0o&tC
PT: : think .hat's interestin4 a0o&t .hat %astercoin's done .ith my role as chie/ scientist
" .e see it as " decentrali,ed /inance is so small as a /ield that .e sho&ldn't 0e thinkin4 in
terms o/ 0ein4 in competition .ith each other as m&ch as 0ein4 in competition .ith
centrali,ed /inance* so even tho&4h : .ork as chie/ scientist at %astercoin* as yo& said*
:'m also a&ditin4 'o&nterParty* and :'m also helpin4 o&t .ith 'olored'oin's .ork as .ell.
ABL: : think that's the ethos* /rankly* to 0e movin4 /or.ard* no.. There's so m&ch room /or
colla0oration* so m&ch st&// that needs to 0e 0&ilt* and .e're all kind o/ ro.in4 in the same
direction any.ay " so since it's all open so&rce* this is the .ay that makes a lot o/ sense
to do* so :'m 4lad to see yo& 4&ys takin4 this ethos* and that's 0een tr&e pretty m&ch .ith
all my talks .ith %astercoin /olks. The reason .hy .e're havin4 this conversation today
isn't act&ally a0o&t %astercoin* it's a0o&t stealth addresses* .hich are somethin4 that yo&*
sir* .ere talkin4 a0o&t a co&ple o/ months a4o. Let's pretend : haven't done any research
and :'m 6&st some schmo o/ a podcaster... .hat's a stealth address and .hy is it relevant
to meC
PT: : think .hat it really comes do.n to is it makes it easier /or yo& to do the ri4ht thin4
.ith re4ard to privacy* 0eca&se a Bitcoin address is somethin4 that " .hatever yo& do
.ith it* it's p&0licly visi0le* so .hat it comes do.n to is that i/ yo& &se a Bitcoin address
t.ice* yo& are linkin4 in/ormation a0o&t yo&r transactions. =o& are essentially sayin4
alri4ht* : did this transaction and : did this transaction. Potentially* : did a .hole 0&nch o/
'em. That's in/ormation that yo& don't necessarily .ant other people to kno.. A 4reat
e;ample is " alri4ht* yo& 4et paid 0y yo&r company every month. <o yo& .ant every
sin4le paycheck to end &p on the same address so it's kind o/ o0vio&s ho. m&ch yo&'re
4ettin4 paid* ho. o/ten it is and so onC =o&'re m&ch 0etter o// i/ that in/ormation isn't
p&0lic* and to make that possi0le* yo& have to /i4&re o&t ho. yo& receive payment /rom
someone t.ice .ith the same address. All a stealth address is is 6&st a 0it o/ crypto4raphy
math so that yo& can essentially 4ive someone else this piece o/ data that lets them then
constr&ct addresses that can pay yo&* and even tho&4h they're not linked p&0licly* yo&r
.allet can still recover the /&nds /rom them and still spend them.
ABL: $o these are like... somethin4 like hierarchical deterministic client(side .allets*
.here the sender 4enerates itC E;plain this to me more.
PT: =o& 0ro&4ht &p #< .allets* and #< .allets are potentially another .ay o/ doin4 this
kind o/ thin4 in that* .ith an #< .allet* yo& co&ld potentially 4ive someone else .hat's
sort o/ called the root* and then /rom that root p&0key* they can then also derive
addresses* and then yo& can set &p yo&r .allet so/t.are to look /or addresses that
co&ld've 0een derived /rom that root. The pro0lem .ith it is it's kind o/ in/le;i0le* 0eca&se
the only thin4 yo& can kind o/ do is say yo& have address Q3* address Q1 " i/ yo&r .allet
doesn't happen to 0e lookin4 at the ri4ht address* or may0e the address 4et o&t o/ match
or somethin4* or yo& really .ant to 4ive this to t.o people 0eca&se it's more convenient*
it's 6&st a lot o/ overhead and comple;ity to it /rom a &ser's point o/ vie.. 7&ndamentally*
yes* yo&'re ri4ht " it's a .ay o/ 4ivin4 someone a piece o/ in/ormation /rom .hich they can
derive m&ltiple addresses to pay yo&* so /rom that respect " yeah* they're very similar.
ABL: This is help/&l to me* then* 0eca&se Let's Talk Bitcoin as a podcast* .e'd p&t o&t this
piece o/ in/ormation a0o&t &s* and then people .o&ld 0e a0le to &se this to derive
addresses that they co&ld send money to &s. 5e .o&ldn't 4enerate the address " they
4enerate the address and it ro&tes it to &s* ri4htC
PT: =eah* and this is a key pro0lem .ith #< .allets. Let's s&ppose yo& .anted a donation
address* 0&t yo& didn't .ant to 0e p&0lic .ho has donated to yo& and ho. m&ch. :/ yo&
6&st p&0lish an #< .allet address* the pro0lem is that 0oth sides o/ the sendin4 o/ the
/&nds or the receivin4 o/ the /&nds essentially have to re4enerate the same address. :/ .e
have the root and then .e 4enerate address Q3* on yo&r side* yo& m&st also 4enerate
address Q3 and look /or it in the 0lockchain. :/ it's a donation address* .hich inde; do yo&
&seC :/ :'m 4oin4 to donate money to yo&* my client has to someho. /ind an inde; that
hasn't already 0een &sed* and then not have that search space o/ inde;es 0e too 0i4 "
other.ise* yo&r .allet so/t.are is then havin4 to search /or tho&sands o/ possi0le
addresses* so yo& 4et this very hard(to(achieve trade(o// that " practice adds lots o/
overhead and isn't really practical in a lot o/ cases.
ABL: $o .hat's the &se o/ these thin4sC
PT: : think /or an #< .allet ro&te... /or the &se(case o/ yo& 4ivin4 an address to someone
to pay yo&* it does pro0a0ly .ork in cases .here there's a one(to(one relationship. :
co&ld* say* 4ive my employer an #< .allet root* and 0eca&se they kno. .hich addresses
o/ that chain they've &sed* it's easy /or them to &se a ne. one each time .ith a 0it o/
0ookkeepin4.
ABL: $o this is more like settin4 &p a direct(deposit relationship .ith yo&r employer than it
is 0ein4 a0le to 6&st 4ive an address to all yo&r /riends and have it so they can
anonymo&sly pay yo&* 0eca&se they aren't all keepin4 track o/ .ho all's sendin4 payment
to yo& at .hat point* ri4htC
PT: =eah* that's not a 0ad description. : think* on the technical level* that description kind
o/ misses a lot o/ st&//* 0&t in terms o/ .hat the &ser e;periences* that's 8&ite correct.
ABL: 5ell* :'ll 0elieve :'m missin4 st&// on the technical level " that's de/initely tr&e. : have
a lot o/ thin4s that :'m .orkin4 on* and : have a lot o/ these pro0lems. $ettin4 &p a .ay /or
people to donate to &s " like* .e're creatin4 an application /or smartphones ri4ht no.
that's 4oin4 to have tippin4 st&//* and it'd 0e 4reat. 5e have* on the one side* : vie. this as
solvin4 another end o/ another pro0lem : have... .e're 0asically settin4 &p a system called
Bit$plit* that's an idea o/ )yle /rom 'oinTalk* .here yo& can essentially have an address
ro&te then* o&t to m&ltiple addresses* .here one person co&ld 4et 32O* one person co&ld
4et 3@O* one person co&ld 4et @2O... it's totally ar0itrary. This is like the other side o/ that.
:/ yo& attach this to the /ront o/ it* yo& have a .ay /or it to 0e totally private and still 4o
thro&4h all o/ this distri0&tion a&tomatically. 'o&ld yo& do itC
PT: 7or instance* /or yo&r application there* yo& .ant to 0e a0le to p&0lish an address and
take /&nds yo& receive and split it &p. As yo& kno.* 0y creatin4 that sin4&lar address* yo&
have the pro0lem that i/ it 4ets re&sed* yo& lose some privacy there. 5ith a stealth
address* .hat that .o&ld ena0le /rom yo&r point o/ vie. is that yo&r site .o&ld 0e
p&0lishin4 stealth addresses instead o/ normal Bitcoin addresses* so .hen : say* made a
donation that's s&pposed to 0e split across* say* 32 parties* that donation .o&ld 0e not
visi0le to anyone else on the 0lockchain* or at least* : sho&ld say* it .o&ldn't 0e linka0le to
anyone else* and :'ve essentially 4enerated ne. addresses 0y the $tealth method* pay
yo&* yo&r .allet so/t.are .o&ld see the money* and then the ne;t 4&y that comes alon4
pays to an address* see the money* and it all .orks o&t. : 4&ess the important thin4 is*
ri4ht no.* the main alternative is yo& have an interaction. Let's s&ppose yo&r .e0site had
a 0&tton that yo& click and it'd pop &p a ne. address every sin4le time a &ser .anted to
donate. That's all .ell and 4ood* 0&t 0y poppin4 &p a ne. address* yo& have an
interaction 0et.een yo& and them that yo& can't 4et rid o/* and that's really .hat stealth
addresses try to avoid* so yo& don't have to have that overhead.
ABL: Dkay. As a normal &ser* i/ : .anted to implement somethin4 like this* .hat .o&ld that
look likeC :s this somethin4 that's still in a theoretical sta4eC :s it somethin4 .here there're
are AP:s o&t there and : can point a developer to itC
PT: :t's not to a point .here there're tested AP:s and tested implementations. :t's at a
sta4e .here people are .ritin4 code to implement it and testin4 it o&t* and makin4 s&re
that thin4s .ork as e;pected. :* personally* am .ritin4 .hat :'m callin4 the $tealth Address
+e/erence :mplementation* and then :'m doin4 that in con6&nction .ith
<ark5allet-li00itcoin 4&ys .ho are also doin4 an implementation. D&r 4oal* there* is that
.ith t.o implementations* .e can make s&re that they do interoperate in nat&ral
speci/ications that .ill 4et .ritten* is cracked* and is somethin4 people like co(a&thors can
take and implement stealth addresses /rom that.
ABL: $o&nds 4reat. Be/ore : let yo& 4o on this one " .hile :'ve 4ot yo& here " yo& .ere
0ro&4ht to the %astercoin 7o&ndation to address some o/ the complaints a0o&t the
protocol and some o/ the incon4r&ities in it. 'an yo& address any o/ thatC 'an yo& talk
a0o&t any o/ the .ork that yo&'ve done to chan4e the protocol and .hat the complaints
.ere* and ho. the complaints .ere addressedC This co&ld 0e an entirely di//erent
intervie.* too... 6&st thro.in4 this o&t there 0eca&se :'m le4itimately very c&rio&s.
PT: : 4&ess the 0i4 thin4 :'m 4oin4 to say &p(/ront /irst " no0ody in the decentrali,ed
/inance state kno.s act&ally .hat .ill or .ill not .ork. This is a /ield that did not e;ist
may0e even a year a4o.
ABL: =eah* a0sol&tely.
PT: :t is very* very EintermentalCF. : think .hat speci/ically has happened .ith %astercoin is
: think there's act&ally 0een a /air n&m0er o/ smaller chan4es* thin4s like makin4 s&re that
they &nderstand their options* /or instance* to make s&re %astercoin transactions are
0locked* makin4 s&re that they &nderstand the iss&es s&rro&ndin4 consens&s s&rro&ndin4
%astercoin. : think a 0i4 and very important one is : came &p .ith .hat seems like a
reasona0le .ay to &p4rade these systems so that i/ yo& need to chan4e %astercoin to
add ne. /eat&res or chan4e ho. it .orks* .e 0elieve .e no. kno. ho. to &p4rade it and
have an &p4rade process set &p to operate smoothly. : think* more lon4(term then* there's
" and :'d say this is the other hal/ o/ .hat :'m .orkin4 on " :'m kind o/ .orkin4 on Bitcoin
itsel/* makin4 s&re Bitcoin can scale* makin4 s&re that the Bitcoin protocol itsel/ .orks in a
variety o/ .ays* stays decentrali,ed and so on. 7&ndamentally* that's 0eca&se %astercoin
depends on it* as do all these other decentrali,ed /inance thin4s* .ith one e;ception o/
Ethere&m.
ABL: : 0elieve >JT also doesn't rely on it* 0&t it's not &sin4 a 0lockchain(like str&ct&re.
PT: : .o&ldn't necessarily call >JT decentrali,ed.
ABL: +eallyC That's interestin4.
PT: =eah* .ell &n/ort&nately* their proo/(o/(stake al4orithm /or consens&s inter(depends on
developer checkpoints* so i/ the developers' proo/(o/(stake al4orithm doesn't .ork...
ABL: #mm... interestin4. Peter* .e're 4oin4 to have to do a lon4er intervie. at another
time.
PT: =eah* yo&'re into very 0i4 topics there.
ABL: =eah* it's very tr&e. :t's a very 0i4 topic and it's s&ch an interestin4 time ri4ht no.*
0eca&se : think yo& vie. yo&rsel/ kind o/ like ho. : vie. mysel/* .hich is as a /ree a4ent
in this space.
PT: =es.
ABL: There's so m&ch st&// 4oin4 on* yo& really can't pick a team. :t's 6&st a0o&t lookin4 at
all the innovation and tryin4 to learn /rom everythin4* and then at the end o/ this* .e .ind
&p incorporatin4 all the 0est elements into the same thin4s 0eca&se it's all open(so&rce
any.ay* ri4htC
PT: That's a0sol&tely tr&e. :/ anythin4* : think that's kind o/ one o/ the interestin4 thin4s
a0o&t stealth addresses " simply that on a technical level* it really is kind o/ simple* so it's
nice* then* to have a pro6ect : can reasona0ly see 4ettin4 implemented in a relatively short
period o/ time vers&s other st&// .here the .hole scope o/ .hat decentrali,ed /inance is
4onna do is 6&st so comple;* and there're so many di//erent movin4 parts that sometimes
it's kind o/ hard to .rap yo&r head aro&nd.
ABL: Peter Todd* chie/ scientist o/ the %astercoin 7o&ndation. Thank yo&.
PT: #ey* yo&'re .elcome. Thank yo&.
ABL: Thank yo& /or listenin4 to episode 94 o/ Let's Talk Bitcoin. Aisit &s at
letstalk0itcoin.com /or more content* s&0scri0e to all o&r /eeds* tip o&r sho.s* and* o/
co&rse* try o&t the other sho.s on the LTB net.ork like Pa&l Boyer's a.ard(.innin4 %ad
%oney %achine and Ethan's Live Bitcoin +eport every 5ednesday at Rpm Paci/ic Time*
<r. $tephanie %&rphy and Bryan $overei4n on the $e; S $cience #o&r* and o/ co&rse the
0oys in >ashville servin4 &p Bitcoins S Bravy. 'ontent /or today's episode .as provided
0y $tephanie %&rphy* )ristov Atlas* +oss %int,er* Peter Todd and Adam B. Levine. This
episode .as prod&ced and edited 0y Adam B. Levine* .ith additional editin4 0y <enise
Levine. %&sic /or this episode .as provided 0y 9ared +&0ens* +oss %int,er and Beneral
7&,,. Any 8&estions or commentsC Email adamKletstalk0itcoin.com