,<

&
CD
]-{
5
til
6
@tglg,ARE'lulTH
At the risk of sounding a bt highbrow: Do you know
Baudiltard's essay Kool Kller or the insurrection of
signs? Let me quote a small part: '(.) The
Sratft!?ts
ient further, in that they opposed pseudonyms rather
than Mmes to anonww' They are seeking not to
ascape the combinatory in order to regain an idiltity
(which is impossible in any case), but to tum indeter-
'minacy
against the system, to tum indetorminacy into
extermination.' To ctarify, making your pseudonym
famous, while wanting to remain anonymous and
invisibte, is the paradox of graffiti writing' What do you
think about that?
Ah! tknow Baudriltard, but ldon't exactly agroe with that
vision, it's a bit oversimplified, in the field of urban
protest, I rarely agroe with the more or less stereotyped
essays or analyses wriften by sociologists about graffiti
anryay. But to answer your question, I'l! say that if there
realty is a paradox, it's not characteristic of graffiti' I think
it's ihe paradox related to every pseudonym. Why have
a pseudonym for something else than hiding an identity
you want to preserve from the consoquences of a
'certain
activity, most likely an illegal or marginal one, in
aid of another activity
you would want to be subiect to
fame, or at least distinguished
gratitude? I don't
necessarity enioy haing a pseudonym. I rather see that
as an oppoftunity to pick a name and some letters' But
having ono or several ones can also lead ta a psycho-
togical condition of dual porsonality, if not worse. lt's a
kind of schizoprenia; like an actor, for example. Except
that in his case, each new character has a limited life
span. lt onty tives during the time of the shooting or the
performance. Wen it comes to graffiti, it's different
because it's not the same time limit. You chose a new
name and it comes alive forever the first time you paint
it. And this is confirmed by the moing madiums that are
subways and trains. As soon at it stafts moving, the
name comes alive and becomes independent. Then it
disappeArs, goas to meet new people, new horZons,
new adventures.
Paranoia and schizophrqia: How can you live with
sevenl PsaudonYms,
and whY?
Everyone knows why. And what appeared to be
parinoia to some poople recently tumed out to actyally
'be
carefulness, forestatling, and common sense, "How'
is another story, because evontually pseudonyms and
made-up alter 6goes increasingly bacoma paft of your
main life. Until you sometimes ask yourself who's in
charge, kinda tike in Fight Club! But let's not go too far'
t don't feel like l'm spending my life hiding' l'm protecting
myself. Why several names? To cover my tracks, and
atso to avoid dullness and being trapped in a specifia
letter combination. To work on difforent letters or letter
sequences like everyone else, I guess. And to approach
new styles without corrupting yourself as well' Those
differmt names can also stand for various facets of
one's self, or even for fullfledged individuals' lt's
amuses me to imagine or even notice that some
personalities change depending on the name, without
even taking styles into ansideration. The magic of
ubiqu$ oporates with the help of those identity'shifts,
those multiplications. t have a special attachment to this
phenomenon. For that mattar, I treat that subiect'
among others, in a book l'm currontly witing' Putting
your name on disptay everyvvhere, a chosen name,
several names'it eventually refers to tha same uniquo
person, so that your own self is present averwhere at
the same time. How to multiply? Or why? Probably to
defeat the fatatism of lonetiness and baing imprisoned in
the social status of a useless and forgotten pawn.
lJbiquity: Attompting to be everwheie at once, and.
unideniifiable. Wy the choice of going elsewhere, and
how is it possible to be overywhere at the same time? ls
it a practice of anqueing?
Ah yes, why? Concerning, the travels, I believe mine is
the same motivation as everyone elsa's: Novelty,
diversity, to see new places, new people, other cuftures,
taste difforent food and different products. The
adventure, the unknown, and of course painting new
subway and train models. But the other quostion is a
more canceptual
question. The image of travel. Why
should I give lffe to facets of myself if it is to make them
go away, in a mission of freedom, of getting some air. A
conquest? No, not at all. I don't think of travels with a
feeting of appropriation in mind, au contraire,
What is the imporlance of contacts during an lnterrail
trip?
First, it's the fun of moeting people who share the same
passion with me. Having the opportunity to exchange
paints of iew among different cultures, having the
opportunity to paint together, for the experience, the
memories, the graphic attraction, etc. Now I sometimes
enjoy coming back to a city more for the people I know
there than for the painting. Even if they go hand in hand
most of the time. I never
practiced the commando
tntenail like somo do, with a precisaly set list of targets'
and considering the hosts like tour guides' I sae it more
like an undefined adventure. This made me meet
unexpected
people, or end up sleeping alone outside in
a new city to go bomb a yard. But after several nights
spent that way and hours, even days on trains, you
definitely enjoy the hospitalry of your contacts. ln time' I
would rather call them mY friends.
Are you among the people who paint at all costs, no
matter how it's done or how long the checking and
painting is going to take, and who refuse to come back
empty-handed?
Obviously, most ot the time the preliminary phase takes
a long time. But it is essential. I love that phase. lt's a
phase of apprehension, of obiective analysis, of doubt.
And you love your piece even more aftervvards, when
you know you spent hours in the ald or in the rain,
waiting and having doubts! But sometimas (most of the
time) that phase is not enough, and a last moment of
uncertainty remains. You have to find enough
motivation, switch into action mode, where there's no
altemative,
just one goal. During a ceftain period of time,
I couldn't even imagine leaving a spot or even a cW
without doing what lwas there for. Failure or resignation
was not an option, avan if I had to run' And when I was
in that state of mind, nothing was unraachable
Sometimes
you nead this motivation, espocially when
the difficuw level is high' Or else as soon as the first
obstacle comes, you give up' using it as a prebrt b hide
your fear or your lack of bravery. But let's not exaggerate
things. lt all comes back to the famous question: ls the
juice worth the squeeze? We all asked oursefues that
question once. Am I ready to pay full price: Getting beat
up, getting fined or going to
iail.
All that
iust
to have one
more little picture, or to brag about this or that new train
model you have. Actually, I think it's a different question
each time, depending on the circumstances, depending
on the people. You have to weigh the pros and cons, be
fully conscious, and if you're going, you have to know
the risks and know what you have to win, and more
importantly what
You
have to lose.
ls taking a good picture of a piece also part of the
accomplishment?
/t's definitely
gradually turning into a big
accomplighment. Probably like many people, I wasted
hours, even days, hoping to get at loast a picture in
traffic. Sometimes it's the only picture, and most of the
time it's an unsuccessful attempt' But I love
photography. I take a lot of pictures' So I like the hunt,
the chase. You have to get the right place, the right time'
atc. I don't aasily give up. lt's too much of a pain in the
ass when you have a bad picture of a pixe' or even no
picture at alt. L-ater you forget about it, but on the fly you
feet tike it was a big fuss for nothing. You can seek
comfotl by salng to yoursolf that you're not doing it for
the pic, and that onty the memoies will remain in the
eni. But you still have a tittle feeling of failure, of defeat'
you feel like the mission wasn't completed. To me, it's all
-about
the winning trio theory: The train model (color'
shape, city, line); the quality of the piece; and the qyality
of the picture. Succeeding in all those fields i$
uncommon. tt's the ultimate
purpose, but there often is
a problem at some point. What is a good picture? Truly.,
the question can be asked. Actually,
you could think rt is
a picture with a clear shot of the piece, by day, fulliace'
bright tights, without anything hiding it. That's already
something, and I would have loved to have at least that
every tima! lfind a picture beautiful if it's lively' ff you can
see tho train in its context, its environment, even at
night-a station, a stop, a tunnel' a landscape or people,
eien if it's at the expense of the details in the piece' That
way, its reason for existence kicks in, and it blends into
an essential whole.
What can one think about the system collectors? Acting
like war aviators, they put a cross on the fuselage every
time they shoot down an enemy, and the quality of their
piace doesn't reallY matter
'Hahaha!
Let's not
go there. To pull myself out of this' l'll
just say that everyone does what he wants. There are no
'rules
in graffiti, and it's that particular freedom that
makes it-enioyable. lf you want to collect every subway
in Europe or in the world' why not? After all' that
intention is like evety other. Basides, it makes you travel
and builds you up! The question that might come to
mind, is "what now?" I have to admit that I'm always
attracted by models I have yot to paint, obviously'
Especially if I tike the shape and colors. The cW is also
importantit doesn't matter whether it's a subway or a
commuter. People have to stop sanctifying subways'
There are cities where suburban trains and subways are
equally beautifut, if not more (especially when you see
new iubways). But anway, I don't see it as a hunting
trophy or a prize, more liko encounters, adventures' As
foi th'e crosses, where am I supposed to do that? I don't
have a portfolio, neither do I have an airplane!
Concerning the qual$ of the piece, it's
iust
a matter of
subjectivity. Some may find a 1'minute piece way botter
than a 3}-minute piece, lt's even frequent. No need to
add many things to make it cool. But since you mention
it, I wilt be a liftle more citical, regarding the standardi'
zation of styles. Especially for the stuff you see on
subways. Okay, because
yau don't have much time' you
go straight to ihe point: 2 colors for the filling, a very dark
Zutline most often, a background, a second outline if it's
possible, highlights and there you go-but nobody gives
'a
damn abAd the letters! As basic as possible, kinda
soft, or even improved bubble letters. Most of the time it
works, true, but eventualty it gets boring. And obviously
in that case, you appreciate the peiormance more than
the finat work. Maybe this is a little simplistic' I love
seeing newer, more personal stuff, even if it doesn't look
so good.
Are you an 'ignorant afi' fan, or do you see it as a
regression?
Tiat's a vast subiect! I can't reatly take position on the
whote thing. Actually, I dont really get the crrteria and
the limits of what we call "ignorant arI.' ! think that
concept is a bit too simpla and peiorative, even if there's
a sonse of irony in the expression. But I seo what you're
talking about. lt would be more like'original
graffiti" or
'gheio art' or even raw, simple, naive graffiti, lt's hard to
ilassify things anyvvay, Beside, who caresl ls it a
regression? I don't think so. Except if evaryone were
doing it. Because everyone does what he wants, there
are no rules, no forced style. Diversity is always a
valuable resource. But as always, the main citerion is
authenticv. lf it's sincare, then why not? The names
coming to my mind are the ERS, RNB, VOL from
Barceiona, uT in Bertin, 1003PV in Lisbon, etc' But you
still can ask yourseff: Whera is it going to stop? Because
030
from a certain perspective, lcould also name some UVs,
who would then appear like pianeers af that style in the
nineties. Or even some Scandinavian writers from even
before, like CDC, CP, etc- I even did pieces like that,
from 2OA3 and on, but using other names. Surely it's
lighter, it allaws you to take a break, to put graffti back
inlo its popular expressian place: To worry a bit less
about skills and appreciate the moment or the action a
bit more. But on the opposite of what you could think, it
still noeds a lot of preliminary wark, research, ideas and
creativity. Especially if you don't want to fall into
stereotypes. Because you can see so much garbage!
Particularly when it comes from people out of nowhere,
wha barely know Subway Art or Writing From The
Undergound. They are doing it just because it's hyped
and they directly repraduce each other's style. Of
course, the recipe is simple, but it can quickly look
forced. Stupid letters and characters, arrows all over the
place, deliberately bad effects, little dots in the
background, gang, crime or ghetto-related slogans, and
there you go, you're done. All this made in a lame
wasteground with a wannabe hardcore pose for the
camera, dressed like a gangsta or a Warrior. And then
back in your comfortable apaftment, with your fucking
awesome Mac that you baught cash, you put that shit
on Fotolog. And there you ga! No commenL
Giving that repression is getting increasingly heavy in
Europe, it induces more and more changos in practice,
like commando-style preparations. What's your opinion?
Difficulty soris things out. But intelligence and craftiness
will always avercome repression. At least I hope they
will-even if sometimes it hurts. I think no matter what the
new security systems are like, there will always be a flaw,
because it remains human-sized. And if it's more
dangerous, you use appropriate tools. When I see action
movies like the Jason Eourne trilogy, modern robberies
movies like The Score or any ather movie with intrusions,
snipers etc, I realize we really are amateurs. With out
little yards guarded with sensors and video cameras,
connected to a cabin occupied by poor underpaid guys
watching
Wrn
ail night, and hoping to beat on some
youngsters duing their round. But hey, you gotta know
what you want,. too. lf you use mrsre stuff like walkie-
talkies, night vision camcorders, frequency scramblers,
distribution blocks-what's the point af keeping on
making tittte drawings on trains, non-profit actions? lt's
clearly a dtfferent trip, and it's not the same risks! But
sometimes the line to cross is very thin. That's why I
think some people just take themselves a little too
seriously. There's a serious lack of lightness, of
spontaLneity, of indif'ference, of doubt. You have to
remember you're not at war. That sad, kinda demora-
lizing, depressing, paetic, almost use/ess-aspect ls
so{nething I pafticularly like in graffiti. lt may sound
dumb, but it's roughly a romantic aspect, in the aiistic,
nostalgic meaning of it. lfound it in the past. Nowadays,
I think we could use some more.
What do you think about the evolution of Graffiti in
France and Europe during your active years?
"lt was better in my time!" Haha-na, don't get into the
pattern of the bitter old guy bitching about young
people, because it is abvious that a lat of them are
fucking great. I don't need to make a list, it would be
disciminating and prejudiced. The future will tell.
Actually, lots of people abeady talked about this, but tha
big change is the lnternet and new ways of circulation.
Blogs and websites changed everything. Everyone
knows each other; the game is not the ffime. Everything
can be found, you can buy a cornplete writer's outfit for
Chistmas, with stuff that didn't even oxist before. The
very concept of proximity and limits has changed. You
can't talk about being All City like in New York back in
the days: They didn't care about other cities, other
countries; il remained human-sized, urban-sized. Today,
people travel and want to reach the whole of Europe, the
031
whole world. Train bombing suiaced, because trains
were the moving mediums that made the pieces travel,
rathe{ than the writers, who
.stayed
in thek hood.
Nowadays, ail tlrat stuff is long gone. lt got corrupted
samehow. I wasn't there to witness that era unfortu-
nately, but I still saw some kind of evalution. New
standards and new media appeared. Websites, chat
rooms, blogs, forums, and magazines. lt's true that it
makes things easier, faster. You can pretend anything
with those new media, but the significance of word of
mouth isn't to be neglected. When it cames to local
actions, sooner or later people knaw everything about it-
at least I stiil hope so. lt's a new game, it's a modern
competition, it's the time of publicity, marketing. But the
intention, the rule is always to stick out of the crowd, to
make people talk about you. That's haw it is. I think the
shame lies mora in the credulity of $ome people, the loss
of critical thinking. They fantasize about so much stuff
with
just
a picture or a blog, they're always on the watch
for new heroes. But what puts me off even more abaut
that evolution is the hijacking of graffiti by ertemal
interests, the hype of graffiti. There are thoso who make
money from it, but who actually don't give a shit. They
don't even know who we are. lt is complete hypocrisy.
They tighten p*nishments and security operations, they
piss off the magazines using incitation as an excuse, but
they never mess witll the advertising guys or big
commercial companies using graffiti. And !'m not even
mentioning video games or trendy clothing lines "graffi-
tizing" their logas ta fiake them look cooler.
New York, is it a way to complete the chcle?
The December 2006 Daily News article about "Eurotrash
making marks on the subway' was deploring,
Europeans come leave thek mark where the grafftti
culture was born. But it's not only about that, it's more
complex. lt's true that painting in that city is a real
pleasure, in spots where it all sbrted. Thinking that
writers were akeady painting where you're painting right
now at the time af your birth, with afi the innocence of
the beginning. The word 'pilgimage" may be a bit
strong, but it kinda gives you an idea of what the
concept is. But no need to exaggerate, it's not an
ultimate goal. lfeel completely European either way and
! enjoy just as much visiting eastern Europe or former
communist countries, if not more. I think that first and
fo{emost, New York is just a magical cW, capital of the
world for some, modern Babylon for others-because of
its cultural diversity, its melting pot aspect, and most
particularly for its transpofiation system and models. A
must-have for anyone digging subways, trains, yards,
lay-ups and tunnels atmospheres.
ls it possible to keep on doing graffiti when you're over
thirty, or do you have to roasonably give up any activiu
and announce gratfiti is dead?
Heh, that's a trick question. Basically, you're supposed
to act like everything is normal to avoid becoming a
stereotyped sermonizer. No, actually it really is a hard
thing to deal with. Of course, from a historical point of
view, it's a pretty recent thing, especially compared to
the seventies pioneers. But on a life-sized scale, lots of
things change, some interests disappear, some
motivations evolve. There are often great differences
between what you have to do, what you're able to do,
and what you want to da. Lots of disenchantments,
especially when you start thinking back about the
unconquerable frenzy of your twenties, yaur dreams,
your marks-you believe graffiti is going to bring yau the
gratitude society doesn't bing, you believe you're going
to make it on your own, instead of all those celebrity
climbers, all those fucking so-called "stars". You believe
you're gonna find success, get fame, gils and money.
You won't get any of that! lt actually takes everything.
And the fame, if you get any, is subjective and ridiculous.
Just listen to Skeme talking to his mother in Style Wars,
listen to how they don't get along. Lots of
disappointments, social or emotional, but also
disappointments directly related to graffiti. Like
incredible subway or train models disappearing forever,
before you even had a chance to paint them. Lots of
self-doubting too, asking yourself "What is it all for?'
When you shrt, yau don't care about the future. Fkst
because you're not old enough to be asking yourself
questions, and also because what attracts you is the fun
and marginal aspect of the instant. You're not coming
up with thearies or concepts. You staft doing that later
in your life-those who didn't give up do! As for myself, I
have trouble stating my case. Positive or negative? lf I
had to start over, would I do it? Honestly I have trouble
answering that. Obviously, it allowed me to develop a
huge open-mindedness, to see cities and places in a
way I probably never would have seen, to oxperience
things very few people expeienced or even imagined.
But for a long time I had the illusion that I could control
that escape, control its length and intensity, like if lwere
hanging on a whe connecting me to a real normality, or
a normal realv. But I think that wire broke a long time
ago, I even doubt it ever existed. What is attractive in
graffiti, is its marginality. But that exact marginality takes
over while pushing our social landmarks around.'
Eventually, seeing things the way they were before and
fitting into the mold becomes impossible. And there lies
the difficulty of redaployment (l do not like that word), to
ftnd a 'citizen job"! To tae the lina, close your eyes on all
the insane stuff happening all around the world and
paying taxes to finance the control of thoughts and
objects, and increased coercion! Wat is essential to
have in mind is that in tho end, you're always screwed.
Trying to escape allthat would be utopian. lt's the same
with graffiti, but at least you have an illusrln of freedom.
The hardest parl is evolving without disavowing yourself,
or running from yourseff. Many can't do it, but I hope I
can.
g
EI
II
H
G'
-t
><