From the SelectedWorks of Lester R.

Kurtz
September 2005
Dalai Lama Darshan
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Dalai Lama Darshan
Lester R. Kurtz
University of Texas at Austin
Ahimsa Nonviolence 1 (September-!tober "##$%&
n T'e "1st of !tober "##$( ) en!ountere* t'e
Dalai Lama( alon+ ,it' 11(### ot'er people( mostly
university stu*ents( *eep in t'e 'eart of Texas. -or
about an 'our an* a 'alf( a bas.etball !ourt full of
people( some of ,'om 'a* ,aite* several early
mornin+ 'ours for free ti!.ets to t'e event( sat
enrapture* as 'e spo.e. Some straine* to un*erstan*
as a little man in mon./s robes an* a lar+e-brimme*
!ap to s'a*e a+ainst t'e bri+'t li+'ts( spo.e in less-
t'an-perfe!t 0n+lis' of t'e importan!e of internal
an* external *isarmament( of !ompassion for ot'ers
an* one/s personal responsibility for brin+in+ about
pea!e.
As one of my stu*ents later observe*( t'e
'u+e !ro,* filin+ out of t'e sta*ium ,as unusually
polite( motionin+ ot'ers to +o in front of t'em(
smilin+ at an* +reetin+ stran+ers. T'ey ,ere
+lo,in+ from t'e en!ounter( be!ause t'ey 'a*
experien!e* ,'at Asians !all a darshan 1 a +limpse
of t'e sa!re*( or ,'at !omparative reli+ions
s!'olars !all a theophany( an en!ounter ,it' t'e
sa!re*.
T'e i*ea is ,i*esprea*( even in mo*ern
se!ular !ultures( ,'ere youn+ people pay lar+e
sums of money an* time to see ro!. stars an*
!elebrities( an* t'e ,ealt'y pay 21(### a plate for
tasteless foo* at a *inner ,it' t'e presi*ent or some
ot'er ma3or politi!al fi+ure. 4ein+ in t'e presen!e
of someone important is some'o, empo,erin+5 t'e
presen!e of someone 'oly is bot' empo,erin+ an*
inspirin+.
T'at is ,'y it is important for us to lift up
t'e pea!eful 'eroes of 'uman 'istory( to tell t'e
stories t'at s'oul* be retol* a+ain an* a+ain( t'e
'istory t'at s'oul* be repeate*. 6omen an* men of
!oura+e stan* up for ,'at is ri+'t an* fi+'t ,it'out
ran!or or violen!e to promote 3usti!e an* pea!e( to
stem t'e ti*es of *estru!tion. Rememberin+ t'eir
example( relivin+ t'eir stories( ma.es us better
people an* t'e ,orl* a better pla!e.
7y first darshan of t'e Dalai Lama ,as in
188# ,'en ) travele* to D'aramsala( t'e Tibetan
exile !apital( to intervie, 'im as part of my
resear!' on 9an*'i/s le+a!ies. ) ,ent ,it' an
attitu*e of respe!t( but *i* not feel !ompelle* to
follo, t'e proto!ols of !allin+ 'im :;our <oliness=
an* so fort'( but t'en ) am not 4u**'ist so ,as not
re>uire* to *o so. 4y t'e en* of my time to+et'er
,it' 'im( some forty-five minutes in 'is offi!e( )
,as in a,e. <e !learly lives on a *ifferent plane
t'an ) *o( an* ) ,as tou!'e* by 'is presen!e. ) 'a*
not expe!te* to be so impresse*( but 'is *emeanor
is infe!tious. ?o, ) ,oul* be !omfortable !allin+
'im @;our <oliness(= be!ause ) re!o+nize t'at 'e is
'oly.
6'at is remar.able is not only 'is 'oliness(
but also 'is 'umility as ,ell as 'is ability to !onne!t
,it' !ommon people from all ,al.s of life(
nationalities( !ultures( an* !ree*s. 6'en ) ,al.e*
from t'e ,aitin+ room into t'e 'all,ay lea*in+ to
'is offi!e( 'e met me 3ust insi*e t'e *oor( rat'er
t'an +reetin+ me from be'in* an imposin+ *es.. <e
smile*( s>ueeze* my arm( an* t'an.e* me for
!omin+ all t'at ,ay to spen* time ,it' 'im. )t ,as
'ar*ly t'e re!eption ) 'a* expe!te* from someone
routinely a!.no,le*+e* as 'oly( ,'en +reetin+ a
simple so!iolo+ist ,it' no !laims to spe!ial insi+'t(
let alone respe!t beyon* t'at of anot'er 'uman
bein+.
Later ) ,as part of a +roup of about t,o
'un*re* s!'olars at t'e 4u**'ist-A'ristian Stu*ies
Asso!iation meetin+ in A'i!a+o ,'ere 'e remar.e*
:) s'oul* be more min*ful(= ,'en 'e ,as so far
a,ay from t'e mi!rop'one t'at some people !oul*
not 'ear 'im ,ell. T'en( ) ,as one of $(### ,'om
'e le* t'rou+' a series of refle!tions for t'ree *ays
on pea!e( from t'e internal to t'e +lobal( at a Tibet
<ouse-or+anize* !onferen!e on :T'e Bo,er of
?onviolen!e= 'el* in San -ran!is!o.
)n ea!' of t'ese o!!asions( ) ,itnesse* a
broa* spe!trum of people bein+ tou!'e* personally
an* persuasively by 'is presen!e even more t'an 'is
1
,or*s. <is messa+e is relatively !lear an* simple(
'is *emeanor 'umble( an* 'is impa!t profoun*. )t is
not possible( of !ourse( to represent t'e experien!e
a!!urately in prose( but ) *o 'ave a trans!ript of t'e
intervie, t'at ) 'ave not yet s'are* ,it' a broa*er
publi! (alt'ou+' my stu*ents 'ave been rea*in+ it
for t'e past several years%. <ere are some ex!erpts
from t'e intervie,.
Dalai Lama: ) t'in.( from my !'il*'oo*( *ue
to my previous .armi! form or previous
pra!ti!e( t'at mu!' ) !an say5 ) 'ave a fairly
+oo* 'eart. Bassion( !ompassion( t'ese t'in+s(
al,ays ) !an say( ,ere part of my nature. T'en(
) t'in. more about !ompassion& ,ar or violen!e
means 'urtin+ someone. So( in prin!iple( t'at/s
al,ays ba*.
T'en( for pra!ti!e al reasons( t'e problem( )
t'in. for t'e 'uman bein+( is somet'in+
*ifferent t'an t'e problem ,it' an animal. C-orD
animals( ,'o 'ave less intelli+en!e ... for!e may
be a!!eptable( or may be suitable. E Unless you
!'an+e t'e ot'er/s min*( you see& simple
p'ysi!al !'an+e t'rou+' bullyin+ ,ill not ,or..
0ven if you a!'ieve somet'in+ t'rou+' for!e(
p'ysi!al for!e E very often it !reates a
situation( be!ause of t'e ot'er party( you see(
mentally( t'ey/re not 'appy. E So( t'erefore( as
soon as anot'er opportunity 'appens( t'en
t'ey/ll ta.e retaliation.
An* t'en( basi!ally( )/ve al,ays believe*
violen!e is a+ainst 'uman nature. <uman
nature( ) believe( is !loser to !ompassion(
affe!tion. 7y reason is t'is& t'is bo*y( t'e
'uman bo*y( ,ell appre!iates ot'ers/ affe!tion.
;ou see( for example( it/s >uite !lear t'at ,'en
,e/re born( our first a!t ... is su!.in+ mil.(
mot'er/s mil.. So( mil.( ) t'in.( is a symbol of
affe!tion. 6it'out mil.( t'e !'il* !annot
survive. An* alrea*y( a!!or*in+ to s!ientists
t'in. no,( after birt' t'e next t,o ,ee.s are t'e
most !ru!ial in t'e *evelopment of t'e !'il*/s
brain. Durin+ t'at perio*( t'e most important
fa!tor is t'e mot'er/s p'ysi!al tou!'. 4y t'at
time( t'e !'il* *istin+uis'es 'is or 'er o,n
mot'er( 'as be+un to re!o+nize 'er. 4ut t'e
bo*y itself( t'e substan!e of t'is bo*y itself(
appre!iates t'e ot'ers/ p'ysi!al affe!tion.
T'en a+ain( you see( ,'ile ,e are tal.in+( if ,e
*is!uss ,it' a smile( a frien*ly attitu*e( ) t'in.
our !onversation ,ill +o in a *eeper ,ay. )f our
!onversation 'as some elements of suspi!ion( a
little uneasiness( our !onversation may not +o
,ell. So you see( ) t'in. t'e atmosp'ere of t'is
room( if ,e remain frien*ly( ,it'out any fear or
suspi!ion 1 3ust open( as if ,e/re ol* frien*sE.
T'e atmosp'ere itself is somet'in+ !alm(
somet'in+ +oo*( somet'in+ soft. )f ,e ar+ue(
s'out( t'en if some person is !omin+( t'at
person is imme*iately feelin+ tense.
T'at is t'e ,ay of 'uman nature( ) feel. ?o,(
t'e earliest example ) al,ays see& 3ust at t'is
moment( ) t'in. of t'e ,orl*. Ber'aps at 3ust
t'is moment( per'aps 1##(### people are bein+
.ille*( for a maximum( ) t'in. of 1##(###E.
Killin+ is out of an+er5 a maximum of 1##(###
may ta.e pla!e at t'is moment. T'at is out of
an+er( out of fear. E At t'e same time( at t'is
moment( several 'un*re* t'ousan* are un*er t'e
!are of affe!tion.
Several millions of !'il*ren an* several millions
of patients( several millions of a+e* people are
ta.en !are of by affe!tion( or are livin+ un*er
affe!tion. So( t'erefore( you see( ma.e t'e
!omparison. f !ourse( ,'en ,e loo. at t'e
ne,spaper or ra*io( t'e stri.in+ ne,s is
someone is .ille* 'ere are t'ere or t'ere. So( E
6e t'in. :'( t'e ,orl* at lar+e is violent5
mur*er is somet'in+ *ominant.= 6e +et t'at
impression. 4ut if ,e !al!ulate( E ) t'in. t'e
*ominant for!e is !ompassion( affe!tion.
So( t'erefore( ) feel t'at violen!e( bloo*s'e*( is
somet'in+ essentially a+ainst 'uman nature.
An* furt'ermore( if t'at a!tion brin+s us su!'
!ertain results( t'at even if it/s a+ainst 'uman
nature( it/s all ri+'t CifD it brin+s us somet'in+
+oo*. 4ut t'at/s t'e very >uestion. T'rou+'
"
violen!e( you may a!'ieve somet'in+( my may
solve some problem( but t'at is not t'e proper
solution. Li.e t'e Kas'mir problem& t'e first
met'o* or ,ay to solve t'e Kas'mir problem
,as t'rou+' ,ar. So( t'is is mentally not solve*.
So( after forty years still( t'e problem remains
very alive. )f( F# years a+o t'e Kas'mir problem
'a* been solve* t'rou+' *ialo+ue( t'rou+'
'uman un*erstan*in+( t'rou+' 'uman ,ay or
approa!'( ) t'in. to*ay t'ere ,oul* be no more
problem. 0ven if t'ere ,ere some problems( it
mi+'t not be so serious. T'is ) t'in..
An* also( say li.e t'e Romanian ... *emo!rati!
movement. 4e!ause of E its 'avin+ very
*iffi!ult !ir!umstan!es( some bloo* s'e*
'appens. So( ,'en ,e t'in. about t'e
*emo!ra!y movement in Romania( ,e feel not
so mu!' 'as opene* up5 Ct'ere isD not so mu!'
to re3oi!e in. E T'e free*om movement( ,'en
,e t'in. about t'e ;u+oslavian *emo!rati!
movement( about <un+ary( about Bolan*(
essentially t'e same movement( t'e same aim.
4ut in t'e Romanian !ase( t'e movement
involve* mu!' bloo*s'e*. So( you see( ,e feel
sli+'tly less 'appy. So( E be!ause t'e met'o*
use* more violen!e( t'erefore( ,e +et t'at .in*
of impression or t'at .in* of feelin+. T'erefore(
alt'ou+' from t'e 4u**'ist vie,point t'e
met'o* is not so important( t'e result or en*(
an* motivation 1 t'ese t,o t'in+s are t'e ma3or
fa!torE. <o,ever( if ,e follo, t'e violen!e
met'o*( t'en t'at met'o* spoils t'e beautiful
aim. So( t'erefore( ) al,ays feel in t'e 'uman
business( nonviolen!e is t'e appropriate or
proper ,ay. 4ut t'at/s my feelin+.
LK: if you 'a* a lar+e enou+' army( ,oul* you
ta.e ba!. Tibet from t'e A'ineseG
Dalai Lama: as ) sai* earlier( if ) ,ere on t'e
stron+er si*e( ) may not 'ave t'ese feelin+s. )
*on/t .no,. ?obo*y .no,s5 even myself ) *on/t
.no,. CLau+'sD ?o( ) say( no,( after so many
years of experien!e( to*ay if ) 'ave E a stron+
army an* ,eapons( ,'i!' !an !'allen+e
A'inese for!es( ) t'in. most probably ) ,oul*
not *o it. ) 'ope CnotD C<e lau+'s an* ta.es 'ol*
of my armD. A *iffi!ult temptation Clau+'sD.
After all( ) a!'ieve* t'e ?obel Bea!e Brize( so if
) *o somet'in+ *ifferent( t'en t'at a,ar* ,ill
not be t'ere Clau+'sD. )/ve never 'ear* of
anyone 'avin+ to return it.
E
LK: some pea!e a!tivists ar+ue t'at Satyagraha
provi*es a moral e>uivalent of ,arE an* t'at
some*ay nonviolen!e !ampai+ns( Satyagraha(
may be able to repla!e ,ar( t'at people !an use
t'em instea* of ,ar( instea* of military
!ampai+ns. 6'at is your impressionG
Dalai Lama: ) t'in. t'at/s ri+'t( t'at/s t'e ri+'t
t'in+. ) feel a+ain( it/s in 'uman nature( an*
espe!ially in !ertain in*ivi*ual !ases( ,e may
not appre!iate it. )n t'at !ase( some .in* of
pressure is ne!essary. T'en( bloo*s'e* is too
mu!'. T'en( alt'ou+' it is not +oo* essentially(
E ,'en you nee* some .in* of pressure( t'en
t'e best t$'in+ is !ivil *isobe*ien!e( t'e stri.e.
E CTa.eD my o,n !ase( t'e Tibetan !ase. T'e
moment A'ina/s +overnment is rea*y to a!!ept
our !omplaint( t'en t'ere is no nee* to issue
*emonstrations. E6e explain t'e true situation(
an* all !omplain. E T'e A'inese E only
le!ture to usE. 6e .no, better t'an t'e
A'inese( but suppose t'ey .no, better t'an us
an* E t'ey say( all t'ese !omplaints are
expresse* by t'e Tibetan people5 t'ey say( t'ese
are some 'armful rea!tionaries. T'ere is no
ot'er alternative ot'er t'an to express to t'e
A'inese +overnment( to let t'em .no, about t'e
true situation about Tibet. T'e only t'in+ is( t'e
people t'emselves must s'o,( express( t'eir
*eep sorro,. So( un*er t'ese !ir!umstan!es( t'e
only proper t'in+ is to raise t'eir ... !on!erns to
t'e outsi*e ,orl*.
E
LK: )n ,'at .in*s of a!tions ,oul* you be
prepare* to parti!ipate for ,orl* pea!eG
H
Dalai Lama: sometimes ) feel t'e pea!e
movement is +ettin+ more 'ostile( more
ne+ative( more emotional. So( t'at E ) *on/t
t'in. is t'e proper ,ay. T'e proper ,ay is first
Cto 'aveD pea!e of min*. T'rou+' pea!e of
min*( t'en t'ere is a movement for ,orl* pea!e.
So( E more people ,'o are !on!erne* about
,orl* pea!e5 it seems not suffi!ient. E -irst(
Cour !on!ern s'oul* be aboutD mental pea!e an*
'o, to +et mental pea!e. 6e 'ave t realize t'at
men *estroy mental pea!e. E Bea!e means
*isarmament or no ,ar5 pea!e means not a mere
absen!e of ,ar( but no more *an+er( no t'reat.
-or t'e last forty years( 0urope 'a* te!'ni!al
pea!e( but not proper pea!e( be!ause ,it' every
nu!lear ,eapon people ,oul* not +et se!urity.
T'erefore( pea!e means no t'e mere absen!e of
,ar. )t means no bloo*s'e* of ,ar a* CalsoD
'appiness an* satisfa!tion. T'erefore(
*isarmament is very important for ,orl* pea!e
an* for t'at 1 ,it'out mental pea!e 1 ,orl*
pea!e !annot be a!'ieve*. T'erefore( for mental
pea!e C,e nee*D mental *isarmament. Usually
people Ct'in.D an+er is somet'in+ +oo* for us. )
t'in. t'is is C,ron+D ,e !an *evelop !ertain
te!'ni>ues to re*u!e an+er. So( E ) feel ,orl*
pea!e very mu!' lies ,it' e*u!ation( proper
e*u!ation. So( ) prefer to ,or. for proper
e*u!ation& 'o, to ma.e t'e 'uman min*( to
s'ape t'e 'uman min* in Ct'e proper ,ayDE.
LK: 6'at is t'e role of reli+ion in politi!sG
Dalai Lama: ) t'in. t'e politi!ian s'oul* be
more reli+ious min*e*. -or t'ose people ,'o
ma.e 'ermita+e( it *oesn/t matter. T'at person
is not *oin+ mu!' ,ron+ to so!iety but t'ose
politi!ians ,'o are involve* in publi! lie( E
many people suffer. T'ey are tellin+ lies( t'en
people CareD *e!eive*.
LK: 7any people say t'at 9an*'i/s i*eas are
+oo* in t'e abstra!t( but *on/t ,or. in t'e ,orl*
of pra!ti!al politi!s. 6'at *o you t'in.G
Dalai Lama& )f ,e leave t'e !on!ept of
nonviolen!e as t'e mere absen!e of violen!e( E
but t'at/s not t'e !ase. ) t'in. 9an*'i ,as no
*oubt a very pra!ti!al person. True nonviolen!e(
'e pus'e* somet'in+. <e a*opte* !ertain
met'o*s5 E 'e !reate* some *isturban!e for t'e
4ritis'. An* finally( t'e 4ritis' ,it'*re,. T'is
is nonviolen!e& simply not 'armin+ t'e 4ritis'
an* s'outin+ in*epen*en!eG ?ot t'at ,ay.
Alt'ou+' ) *on/t .no, mu!'( ) t'in. t'at +ivin+
in*epen*en!e to )n*ia by t'e 4ritis' C,asD not
by mer!y( E not by !ompassionate attitu*e 1 )
t'in. t'ey ,ere !ompelle* to *o it. T'at means(
9an*'i !reate* some problems for t'em( an*
finally t'ey *e!i*e* it is better to 'an* over t'e
po,er to )n*ia/s 'an*s. So t'at means(
nonviolen!e is not merely t'e absen!e of
violen!e( but a pro*u!tive for!e.
LK: 6asn/t 9an*'i s'o,in+ 'is an+er at t'e
4ritis'G
Dalai Lama: E ) sa, t'e CAttenborou+' film
:9an*'i=5 in 'isD !onta!t ,it' t'e 4ritis'
people( 4ritis' aut'orities( 'e ,as very frien*ly.
E CAlso( t'ere ,as a s!ene ,it' a 3ournalistD
an* ,it' CaD bi+ smile( 'e !lose* t'e 3ournalist/s
mout' ,it' 'is o,n 'an* Clau+'sD. ;ou see( a
very frien*ly manner( but also very effe!tive I
not s'outin+( but simply in a very frien*ly
manner( !lose* it 3ust li.e t'at.
LK: ,'at is t'e role of reli+ious lea*ers in
brin+in+ about ,orl* pea!eG
Dalai Lama: ) *on/t .no,. 4ut( ,'at )/m
*oin+( et'er ) !an !ontribute in a small ,ay.
T'at/s my responsibility( my *uty. )/m not
t'in.in+ t'at )/m t'e lea*er or somet'in+. E
0very in*ivi*ual 'as responsibility for a better
,orl*( a 'appier ,orl*( be!ause t'is is our
,orl*( isn/t itG E So( t'e ,orl* is our ,orl*5 ,e
are 'ere. )f somet'in+ 'appens( some unpleasant
t'in+s 'appen on t'is planet( ,e ,ill suffer. So(
in t'at sense( ) try al,ays as mu!' as ) !an.
7u!' of ,'at <is <oliness sai* in 'is offi!e in
t'e )n*ian <imalayas 'e repeate* fifteen years later
in a sta*ium in Austin( Texas. 6'at 'e 'a* to say
F
!oin!i*e* ,it' 'o, 'e sai* it. <is simple an*
profoun* i*eas of inner an* outer *isarmament( of
+entle stru++le( refle!t in 'is o,n *emeanor. <is
4u**'ist min*fulness of t'e sufferin+ of t'e !osmos
appears in t'e intimately personal ,ay 'e
en!ounters an in*ivi*ual in 'is offi!e or 11(###
people +at'ere* to 'ear a !elebrity spea.. <e !omes
a!ross not as an important persona+e *eman*in+
re!o+nition but a fello, 'uman bein+ re>uestin+ a
moment of our time. T'is is t'e .in* of lea*ers'ip
t'e ,orl* nee*s.
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