Darren Wilson Transcript13

State of Missouri v.
Darren Wilson
Grand Jury Volume XVI
October 27,2014
Page 27
1
he pulled his car back.
And I was on the phone
talking to the captain as I was running down the
street to finish peeing in the toilet.
What captain, who did you call?
I can't remember the captain's name I
called, but I called and said I want to speak to the
captain, lieutenant, or a sergeant.

Was this with the Ferguson Police
Department?
10
Yes, this was Ferguson Police Department.
11
Did you speak with one of them, with the
12
13
captain?
A
Yes, that's what he said who he was.
14
can't say that's who he was because I'm on the
15
phone.
16
Okay.
17
And he say, well, did the officer do any
18
bodily harm to you or nothing.
19
me feel smaller than what I would be because I had
20
peed on myself.
21
after I peed on myself.
22
I said he just made
He say, did he let you go?
You know,
Yeah,
I don't think that's right.

I say I don't steal,
23
don't beat up nobody,
24
I'm just running down the street.
25
south side city or south side county, west side and
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I do nothing like crazy stuff.

I can go on the
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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

October 27,2014
Page 28
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run anywhere I want to run and not be stopped by an
officer at all.
and not be stopped by an officer at all.
5
6
7
8
I can run anywhere I want to run
Did he get out of the car when he stopped
No, he stayed in his vehicle, he didn't
you?
get out.
Q
Did you see him ever again before the
shooting occurred?
10
I saw him in Jennings.
11
Okay.
12
13
14
15
And that was before the shooting
occurred?
A
Yeah, that was before the shooting
occurred.
Q
When you saw him in Jennings, was this
16
before or after the incident where you peed on
17
yourself?
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
It was before I saw him in Jennings.
saw him in Jennings twice.

Q
What was going on when you saw him in
Jennings twice?
A
I can't remember,
I seen him at Jennings.
I stay at Jennings sometimes.

Q
Did you have conversation with him those
two times?
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Hi and bye, that's it.
Because he would
speak to me and I say hi, he'll say hi and I'll say
hi, officer.
So you knew him when you saw him and he
knew you when he saw you?
We didn't have no like personal thing,
when I saw you, I say hi, you know, it is just me.
I just speak.
Okay.
So after this happened, after you
10
peed on yourself, did you have occasion to see him
11
after?
12
13
Uh, no, I didn't see him no more until
that incident.
14
Until that incident?
15
And I wasn't for sure that was him or not
16
cause I saw like the side of him, so and then when
17
they showed a picture of him, I say I know him.
18
So as you sit here today, you know that
19
the Darren Wilson that they've shown that did the
20
shooting is the one that stopped you when you were
21
running trying to get home?
22
Right.
23
Now, when you talked with the FBI,
24
according to my notes it was maybe August 26th of
25
2014.
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August the 13th, a few days after this happened.
Then they actually had an interview with you
August 26th, do you remember that?
Yes,
I called them.
They left a card on
my door.
Okay.
So I called them,
don't do court.
you.
I told them,
I said I
I help you in any way I can help
But I'm not trying to get involved, but this
10
is what I can tell you what I saw and said y'all can
11
take it from there.
12
They actually came to your apartment; is
13
that right?
14
Did they come to your apartment?
They came knocking, but I wasn't there,
15
that's when they left their card the first time.
16
And then,
17
remember that name,
I can't remember his name,
I should
I can't remember.
18
That's okay.
19
He just kept on calling, kept on calling
20
me.
21
power of attorney, he figured I should not talk to
22
him because you upset my momma,
23
to you either.
24
25
And then my son told me that by him being my
I don't want to talk
Where did they have the interview with you
at?
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In my home, in my kitchen.
I went behind
my son's wishes and behind his back and I let him in
anyway.
Why does your son have power of attorney?
He have power of attorney because I had
cancer in my back.
Thank God that it ain't there no
more.
take care of my business at the time, so I had to
stay with my son for like almost two years.
And I was having blackouts and I couldn't
Q
A
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
No, sir, cause I never took it away back
from him.
Q
Okay.
Do you need him now to have power
of attorney?
A
No,
I do not.
I just went through that
stuff right now.

Q
When you talked to the police that day, do
20
you recall stopping the recording when they were
21
recording your statement?
22
Yes,
I did.
The one that is tall, clean
23
cut, started irritating me, called me a liar, it
24
just irritated me so bad, that I really wanted to
25
choke him.
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wanted to choke him.
Okay.
I told him, after I cut it off,
done,
They need to leave my home.
my home.
I said I'm
I said what I had to say and I cut it off.

They refused to leave
Okay.
And then the one with the black hair told
And did you --
me, he say just calm down.
10
leave my home.
11
come in.
12
said,
He told the other two to
And that's when they brung a female
Before she came in, he cut it back on.

, I want to ask a few more,
He
I said okay.
13
So you did let them record some more?
14
Right.
I told them I say, that they said
15
that since I'm lying that what I said at first must
16
have been a lie.
17
the truth,
18
19
20
Right now I'm going to tell you
is what I put on the recording.

So you admitted on the recording that you
lied initially?
A
Right, although I wasn't, but that's what
21
they wanted to hear, so I just gave them what they
22
wanted to hear.
23
Okay.
24
Then I told them,
25
to tell you the truth.
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I said, okay,
I'm going
And that's when I told them

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about the part that I saw him on his knees, the
police shot him in his head, his arms was up and
then he fell.
I just made it clean cut and short.
I'm not trying to give the beginning of the details
to the end, they weren't trying to hear that.
need to get out of my house because I don't need to
hear this.
even know me to tell me I'm lying.
10
You
You can't tell me I'm lying, you don't

I don't have any
reason to lie to you or nobody else.
11
They just start to irritate me so bad
12
that then,
13
get me a spoon so I could get me some Jello to eat
14
so I can take a pill with my Jello.
15
16
I went to go from my kitchen drawer to
And he thought I was going for a

knife.
I say no,
I'm not suicidal.
17
Why would you --
18
That's because I'm with BJC Behavior
19
Health.
20
pills.
21
22
23
I don't use weapons on myself,
I take
You mean you tried to commit suicide
before?
A
Yes, like what I'm going through now, all
24
of these questions about death and stuff, that
25
brings back other stuff that I'm trying not to
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remember.
I understand.
Cause I have a dream about this stuff,
I'm
seeing it now when I talk to you now and I'm not
liking what I'm seeing.
myself where I can help y'all out of what y'all need
to know.
9
10
11
And I'm trying to hold
We don't want you to help us,
just tell us
what happened?
A
What I mean by helping you is telling the
truth, that's helping you all telling the truth.
12
Right, that's all we want.
13
That's what I'm doing, that's why I say
14
I'm trying to keep myself,
15
I was in my apartment.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
Pardon me?
Anything else?
MS. ALIZADEH:
You know what,
I have some
clarifying questions.
23
24
25
Kathi?
Anything else?
MS. ALIZADEH:
I'm feeling like
Okay, all right.

MS. WHIRLEY:
oh Lord,
Okay, clarify.
(By Ms. Alizadeh) And
I'm not
saying, these questions are not intended to
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embarrass you in any way, okay.
that you take pills?
But you mentioned
Yes.
Is it for a mental health condition?
Yes.
Do you know what your diagnosis is?
They say I have mood swings, three
8
9
10
personalities.
Q
How long have you been taking medications,
do you remember how old you were when you started?
11
I can't remember.
12
Okay.
13
It has been a long time.
14
And I know you stated you take blood
15
pressure medication and --
16
That's morning.
17
And allergy medication?
18
Yeah.
19
Those things are not for your mental
20
health?
21
No, they are just for my morning stuff.
22
Okay.
23
24
25
Do you know what the name of your
medication is that you take for your mental health?

A
I started with the
for the mood
swings to suppress stuff.
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2
I don't know,
day,
I take 14 medicines a
can't remember them all.

Okay.
Would you say are you good about
taking your medication every day or do you sometimes
go off of it because you don't like what it makes
you feel like?
take them every other day,
sometimes,
don't know if I
nurse come every Monday and do my medicine for the
took it or not.
See,
have the
10
week.
And I was without a nurse for like eight
11
weeks,
so I
12
my psych meds because I didn't know which one I was
13
supposed to take.
took morning meds, but I
couldn't take
14
Do you live by yourself?
15
Yes,
16
So somebody comes in once a week to make
17
do.
sure you are okay, make sure your medications?
18
I have a worker come five days a week.
19
Okay.
20
She makes sure I take my meds.
21
Okay.
22
And my nurse,
she make sure that my meds
23
have been taken, my doctor comes and see me once a
24
month.
25
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supposed to, how does that make you feel?

A
Some will make me feel good where I don't
feel like I'm a threat to myself or nobody else.
can take criticism, when I take certain meds.
Certain meds if I don't take them,
nobody hollering at me period.
makes me want to hurt them.
I can't take
Just makes me angry,
Okay.
But if I take them,
10
So they make you feel calmer?
11
Yeah, and they make me feel normal.
12
If you are not taking your meds like
13
you're supposed to,
I'm like normal.
it makes you more agitated?
14
Yes.
15
Do you ever get paranoid?
16
No.
17
What about it, it might make you angry
18
with people?
19
Yeah.
20
When you don't take your meds, and again,
21
I'm not asking you this to embarrass you or
22
anything?
23
No,
24
Are you able to
25
Function right?
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Perceive things or do you ever have
trouble, you know, like perceiving what's really
going on around you?
Yes,
I do.
Okay.
If I see anything that isn't there it
ain't like, it is something like,
glasses here.
thinking ain't there, no,
10
11
I know, these
It won't be like the glasses I'm
Okay.
I'm never like that.
Do you know if on August 9th you
have been taking your medication regularly?
12
Yes,
I did take my meds.
13
You took it that morning?
14
Yes.
15
You already said that?
16
Yes.
17
What about today, did you take them today?
18
No,
I didn't take them today because I
19
was,
I thought I had to be here at exactly 8:00.
20
I didn't get that much sleep because I was trying
21
not to miss the cab and so when I got up,
22
chance to get my shower, get dressed, and I thought
23
maybe I got time to fix something to eat and I was
24
trying to fix something to eat.
25
said, the cab is here.
FAX 314-241-6750
So
I got a
And then my son
So I couldn't get nothing to

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eat, so I cannot take my meds unless I have food on
my stomach first.
3
4
So you said your son told you your cab was
here, was your son at your apartment this morning?
No, he came and knocked on my door today.
Does your son live in the complex?
He stays at
and I stay at
It is
like a walkway.
What's your son's name?
10
11
And he's here today with you?
12
Yes.
13
He's your godson?
14
Yes.
15
You're not related by blood then?
16
No, huh-uh.
17
Is that the same person that has the power
18
19
, that's my godson.
of attorney for you?

A
The one that has power of attorney is
20
21
22
, that's my birth son.

Q
Okay, all right.
You remember you and I
talked last week about you coming in; is that right?
23
Yes.
24
Do you remember having a conversation on
25
the phone with me?
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Yes.
I know that upset you, you didn't really
want to have to do that?
Yes.
But one of the things you talked to me
about that time you had mentioned that you wear a
body camera?
Yes.
How long have you been wearing the body
10
11
12
camera?
A
I've been wearing the body camera for
almost two months.
13
Were you wearing the body camera on
14
August 9th?
15
No.
16
Do you have it on today?
17
No, that's because you told me that I
18
couldn't wear it.
19
telling me.
20
21
22
That's respecting what you are
Why did you decide two months ago to start
wearing the body camera?

A
I don't want to be disrespected no more by
23
officers.
24
nigger bitch, a bitch ass nigger by officers.
25
was County Brown and one was Ferguson.
FAX 314-241-6750
I've been called, excuse my French, a

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It hurt me,
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like it cut me with a knife.
everybody,
belief you have,
I said I respect
don't care what color you is, what
respect everybody.
Okay.
So I
that to me.
I wore it.
doing, ma'am.
You have a good day.
day too, sir.
When I have the body camera on.
10
can understand why these officers did
So when I was offered the body camera,

And when they see body camera, how you
You have a good
I didn't have that on me, that's what I was called.
11
Okay.
12
You know, the N word didn't bother me.
13
The B word did, but that's a female dog.
14
walk on fours,
15
16
17
I don't
I walk on two.
Well,
No,
understand and frankly the N word
is
cause that didn't bother me I was not
18
acting a fool,
19
really actually stands for,
20
stupid and doing stupid things.
21
When
you know, that's what that word

a person that is acting
Let me ask you, you started wearing this a
22
couple of months ago, were you wearing it when the
23
police came to your house and upset you the way you
24
talked about that he was calling you?
25
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I didn't have it on, but it was in my

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home.
Okay.
So when they came, they came in the
4
5
morning and I still had my pajamas on that day.

Q
Okay.
So the first police that came to
your house, were those the County Browns, were those
detectives with St. Louis County?
No, they was FBI.
Okay.
But when they first came to your
10
house, you didn't talk to them, you didn't make a
11
statement at that time?
12
I wasn't there.
13
Okay.
14
They kept on missing me.
And then eventually you did talk to
them; is that right?
15
Yes.
16
And Sheila asked you during the interview
17
you got upset and you grabbed the recorder and
18
turned it off is; is that right?
19
20
21
22
I didn't grab it, it was on my table,
just pushed the button off.

Q
Okay.
You said you were upset because
they were telling you you were a liar?
23
Right.
24
Were they saying that while it was
25
recording?
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Yes, they did.
Okay.
He said you're lying because we talked to
And so --
a whole lot of other people, they ain't said nothing
you are saying, you lying.
okay, you say I'm lying, then I'm lying,
off.
apartment.
10
11
And that's when I say

I cut it
I said get your recorder and get out of my
Okay.
And then at some point you calm
down or they got you to calm down?

The one with the black hair, he's the one
12
that told me,
13
an ass,
14
interview.
, just overlook him.
just overlook him,
He's being
just go on with this
15
So they turned on the recorder again?
16
I cut it on.
17
Okay.
18
And then you started telling them
what you saw; is that right?
19
Right.
20
Just so I'm clear, I know you said you
21
live in this
right here?
22
Right, uh-huh.
23
What floor do you live on?
24
The bottom.
25
Okay.
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(indicating)
So from when you exit your house,
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do you have to walk up steps?
That's five little steps.
So you don't have like a balcony?
No.
When you look out the window of your
house,
can you see out to Canfield?
No,
I can only see the parking lot and
building across from me.
apartment and went to
10
Okay.
11
It is still
12
13
14
That's why I left my

(sic)
it is
is
their address.
Q
Okay.
So you said you were watching TV
when you first heard shooting?
15
Right.
16
And then you went outside at that point?
17
Yes.
18
Do you remember when you were talking to
19
the FBI agents, do you remember telling them that
20
you heard nine shots and two clicks, do you remember
21
telling them about the clicks?
22
23
click.
24
Okay.
25
I did say that.
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The clicks.
I told them I heard click,

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Do you know what that was, the clicks?
I just heard click, click.
When did you hear the click, click in
relation to what you saw?
That was after.
After?
He hit the ground.
Okay.
9
10
So after Michael Brown hit the
ground, you hear two clicks; click, click and you're

shaking your head yes?
11
Yes,
I forgot.
12
That's all right,
I'll catch you.
So you
13
said, you testified here today that you saw when you
14
came around kind of down by the street, you saw
15
Michael Brown on his knees in the street with his
16
hands in the air; is that right?
17
18
19
20
They weren't all way up in the air, they
was like this.

Q
(indicating)
Okay.
And the officer you said you saw
him shoot him in the head at this point?
21
Yes.
22
Do you remember when you talked to the FBI
23
you told them that you didn't actually see any of
24
the shots?
25
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No,
I did not tell them that.

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Okay.
No.
Okay.
You don't recall saying that?
And did you ever see another
African-American young man that was around there at
the time?
That was running?
Yes.
At the time?
Yes.
10
Yes,
11
12
13
I did see a young man running on like
that side, this right here.

Q
How about can you use the map to say where
he was running?
14
I can imagine that there is Canfield.
15
Okay.
16
And that's the side I'm on, and that side
17
there is where like the mailbox be in the other
18
apartments.
19
toward.
20
21
22
He was on that side running and going
You are talking about the south side of
Canfield, right?
A
Yeah, on that side that is outside and he
23
was there and he was running.
24
the male basically stood before he be going this way
25
and he was running behind the building.
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This is where
But he was
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coming from this way,
coming down, he shot across
the street to the grass area he was running.
(indicating)
What did he look like?
He had dread, dreadlocks as they called
them,
call them dreads.

He was, he was my complexion.
He was
not chubby or real skinny, he was like mid frame,
I can find somebody in here, he was your size.
10
11
12
13
if
(indicating)
Q
Do you remember anything about what he was
wearing?
A
He had on a white T-shirt,
I don't
14
remember if he had a hat on because I saw the hair.
15
He had on short blue jeans pants,
16
sag, that's the way they were.
17
18
19
Okay.
you know how they
Do you remember what the officer
looked like that day?

A
Caucasian, he had blond hair.
20
color I only saw the side of his face,
21
see his eyes.
The eye
so I couldn't
22
Do you remember what he was wearing?
23
He was wearing a blue uniform.
24
Do you remember if it was long sleeve,
25
short sleeve?
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Short sleeve.
How about a hat, did he have a hat on?
No hat.
You saw the officer's face and I know you
said you're not real good at left and right, but you
saw a side of his face that you said looked red?
Yes.
But you don't know why that side of his
9
10
face was red?

A
No,
I don't know because he was mad, he
11
was blushing or whatever,
12
that it was red.
I don't know.
I just know
13
Okay.
14
If he was like turning like I am to you,
15
16
his whole face was red.

Q
And so you recall today that Michael Brown
17
was on his knees with his hands about like this?
18
(indicating)
19
Yes, ma'am.
20
You saw the officer shoot him in the head?
21
Yes, ma'am.
22
You saw him fallon the ground?
23
Yes, ma'am.
24
And did the officer shoot any more after
25
his knees had fallen on the ground?
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I know I heard his hands did,
I guess,
like this on the gun.
Did you hear gunshots?
No,
I just heard click, click and it could
have been behind me clicking, I just heard click,
click.
But you could see the officer's hand
pulling the trigger?
Yes.
10
Do you remember which hand the gun was in?
11
No, not at this time, no.
12
Did you see any blond or when Michael
13
Brown was on his knees with his hands in the air,
14
did you see any blood on his shirt?
15
I just saw the back of him.
16
You just saw him from the back?
17
Right.
18
Did you see any blood on his back?
19
I wasn't looking for no blood or nothing
20
like that.
21
going to say I saw blood.
22
didn't see none when he was on his knees and stuff
23
like that.
24
25
If I want to make some stuff up,
MS. WHIRLEY:
other questions.
FAX 314-241-6750
I'm not
I did see blood later.
Okay.
I don't have any
The grand jurors might have

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2
questions for you.

A
Anyone have questions?
No questions, thank you.
I have two questions.
You stated that you saw Michael Brown that morning
walking, you met him in the street, you had been out
taking your morning walk, you saw him and he was on
his way to the store?
(Nods head.)
And you said that Michael
10
had told you that he wanted to change his life and
11
become better?
12
13
He said he wanted to change his life from
what he was doing.
14
15
Okay.
A
What he was doing, don't nobody know that
16
but him.
17
staying with his grandma, I found out later, he was
18
staying with his grandma, which was at Northwinds,
19
which was around the corner where I was staying.
20
I knew who Michael Brown was, cause he was
But he socialized with everybody in
21
Canfield because he basically join the younger folks
22
in Canfield, there was older folks in Canfield.
23
he hung out there, so that's where I got a chance to
24
know where he was.
25
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You don't know if he was

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troubled?
No.
Every time I saw him he just, you
know, told me that and we talk about God all the
time.
I'm not coming down, he's going up.
we have our conversation.
five,
If I'm not going up, he's coming down, and if
10
11
Do you know, ma'am, if

you took your medicine the day before?
A
I only missed three weeks and that's just
recently.
12
Okay.
13
MS. WHIRLEY:
Thank you so much.
Anyone else?
14
15
And we have maybe like
ten minute talks, he go his way and I go mine.
That's the way
Good morning.
A
Good morning.
16
I know
17
that you testified and I know you have been through
18
a lot since this incident, but you're not holding
19
any animosity about the situation?
20
Oh, no, ma'am.
21
22
23
24
Okay.
So this is straight
from your heart?

A
Yes, it is.
That's is one thing I cannot
do is hard my heart for nobody.
25
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All right.

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I still love everybody.

Yes, sir.
That day you
heard the shots and you left your apartment, did you
walk, did you run, did you, what kind of -- how did
you move to the scene?
I ran.
When you hear the shots,
do you think you want to stay in the apartment for
10
11
safety or what kind of drew you out to -A
Because the way that the sound was coming,
12
it never came from that way, it always came from
13
behind in Northwinds.
14
shooting up the town, that's what I thought.
15
an apartment complex back from behind.
16
And Northwinds is known for
Come from a different angle, it is
17
new, it is just me,
18
coming from, that's why.
I want to know where it is
19
20
Okay.
A
21
22
It is
Anyone else?
MS. ALIZADEH:
23
Okay.
Sit here.
I wasn't leaving.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Before we do that, let me
24
ask you, is there anything else you want us to know
25
that we didn't ask you that you would like to
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2
express to this grand jury?

A
MS. WHIRLEY:
3
4
got to do it now.
saying anything.
10
11
Now is the time to do it.
Now is the time?

MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
Maybe before I leave, but not right now.

MS. WHIRLEY:
5
6
Urn, not at this moment.
If you want to do it, you
We don't want to stop you from

You need to tell us, or to tell
this jury.
A
Well,
I appreciate you all giving me the
12
opportunity to tell my side that I've seen.
13
bless you all, and that's it.
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
15
MS. ALIZADEH:
And God
All right.
You know what
16
when you saw Michael Brown walking earlier and he
17
was walking like toward West Florissant, was there a
18
young man with him when he was walking toward West
19
Florissant or was he by himself?
20
21
22
He was by hisself when I saw him earlier.

MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
Nothing else.
(End of the testimony of
23
24
25
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of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to
testify the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,
deposes and says in reply to oral
interrogatories, propounded as follows,
6
7
to-wit:
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Good morning.
Good morning.
10
Please introduce yourself to the grand
11
jury and spell your name for the court reporter?
12
My name is
14
Okay.
15
Yes,
16
About the Michael Brown shooting?
17
That's correct.
18
Do you remember that morning, August the
13
19
, you know why we are here?

I do.
9th, it was a Saturday, 2014?
20
Clearly.
21
Clearly, good.
22
about that morning?
23
straight to the shooting,
24
it.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
Tell us what you remember
And you don't have to jump

I want you to lead us into
Basically I was sitting on my porch

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around II-ish,
I say 11:35, somewhere around there.
Okay.
You have, there's a laser pointer
right there.
a button right here, there will be a red light.
Do you know how to use that?
There's
You said you were sitting on your
porch, does this map help you to show us where your
porch would be?
Exactly, right here.
What's that address?
10
11
That's in
on the map and this
12
is Grand Jury Number 25.
We are looking at, all
13
right.
14
did you go sit on the porch?
So you were sitting on the porch.
What time
15
Around II-ish, 11:35.
16
What had you been doing before that?
17
I was preparing coffee and to go get
18
better reception on my porch to talk to a friend
19
that was in
20
go out of town.
21
because I was preparing myself to
And I heard a gunshot or two.
22
So one or two shots?
23
Yeah, one or two.
And it caught my
24
attention because I'm sitting on the porch and I'm
25
talking to her and I'm like, hold on, let me call
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you back.
And, uh,
I seen to go right into it.
Go ahead.
I seen an officer, as well as Mike Brown,
4
5
6
7
this is east down,

Q
I guess,
I don't know.
Yes, that would be east, on this would be
West Florissant over here.

A
Okay.
Mike Brown was running in this
direction and I came further to my porch balcony
because I couldn't believe it, you know.
I'm used
10
to hearing noises in the neighborhood, gunshots and
11
to see that it was a police officer shooting at an
12
individual running eastbound on my street was kind
13
of like far fetch for me to believe.
14
All right.
So you saw Mike Brown running
15
eastbound and the officer was chasing him shooting
16
after him?
17
It wasn't so much him chasing him, it was
18
just gunshots going on.
19
eastbound on my street.
I seen Mike Brown running
20
What was the officer doing?
21
The angle that I was in,
I seen him in
22
view after he came from this building, he came more
23
clearer to me as he came going up more Coppercreek.
24
25
You are not suggesting that this officer
left this street, are you?
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No, he did not.
You are talking about you were moving?
I wasn't in clear view of him until he
4
5
came in the view of chasing Mike Brown eastbound.

Q
for you,
Okay.
When the officer came into view,
show me again where you were?
I was on my porch.
Outside?
On the balcony, on the balcony.
10
Is that outside?
11
Yes, ma'am.
12
All right.
13
He was running east bound.
14
Where was the officer?
15
Not too far from,
And where was Mike Brown?
a little bit up further
16
because he wasn't like real clear view of me seeing
17
him as of yet.
18
then I started to see the officer as he was getting
19
closer, but he didn't get that close.
20
cross 9422 Coppercreek, he did not cross over.
I seen Mike Brown clear as day.
He didn't
21
Okay.
22
Basically when a shot went off, again,
23
24
25
And
seen Mike Brown put his arms up and he turns around.

Q
So he puts his arms up before he turns
around?
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He puts his arms up,
yeah, when he turns
around when he turns around.
Why don't you demonstrate for us?
When he turns around
I'm going to kind of talk to get where I
want to go to, okay,
listen to me.
All right.
Mike Brown is running eastbound.
Yes.
10
The officer is coming after him and you
11
hear shots fired?
12
Yes, ma'am.
13
And so what does Mike Brown do?
14
After the shot,
15
on his arm.
16
Now,
Because I didn't know where he got shot
17
you're guessing, why are you guessing
that?
18
19
I guess when it grazed him
at,
I'm assuming that he got shot.
20
And you learned that later from news?
21
Autopsy.
All I know that he turned around
22
after the gunshot went off, he turned around and did
23
this.
24
25
(indicating)
Q
Okay.
Turn your back to us like you are
running.
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You running and pow, pow, so I guess he
felt something and he turned around, and he turned
around right on Coppercreek directly in front of
where I was able to see in eyes view.
walking back toward West Florissant where the
officer was in view of me to see him from my porch.
He started
And what was the officer doing as Mike
Brown walks?
He had his gun raised.
10
Was he coming toward Mike Brown, backing
They was both coming at each other at a
11
12
(indicating)
up
13
moderate pace.
Mike Brown was walking towards him,
14
just walking towards him.
15
Like walk towards me.
16
Walking towards him.
And the officer had
17
his gun up like this is all I seen was him having
18
his arms raised and he was coming closer and Mike
19
was coming like, stop shooting.
20
him and kept shooting him.
21
And he's shooting
(indicating)
I'm like, he don't pose no threat,
22
where is his weaponry to where you deem him to being
23
hostile.
24
25
I mean, there was two construction

workers over there on the side of my building that
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was viewing the same thing I was viewing.
seen what I seen, so did other people seen what I
seen.
see it to be a hostile situation.
And they
It wasn't justifiable in my eyes and I didn't
So when you saw Mike Brown with his arms
up coming towards the officer, he did not appear to
be rushing the officer to you?
Not at all, not at all.
Did he appear to be charging the officer?
10
Not at all, not at all.
11
What in your mind is going on?
12
I was discombobulated,
I didn't know what
13
was going on because I seen this individual, like I
14
said, running eastbound on my street like what's
15
going on.
16
I didn't see, I didn't deem it to be
17
a hostile situation to where the officer needed to
18
of have had his gun raised at the level in which he
19
had it at, you know what I'm saying?
20
Brown.
21
surrender.
22
23
24
25
Facing Mike
So I know that this sign is a sign of
(indicating)
And you clearly saw his hands raised above
his head?
A
Clearly, clearly, I was in plain view of
seeing it.
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They were not straight up?
They was at an angle.
At an angle above his head?
It was simply I surrender.
I don't know,
like I said,
I don't know if he got hit or shot at
that point, but based on the autopsy of the news,
didn't know until that came through.
Did you hear Mike Brown say anything?
Stop shooting me.
10
Did you actually hear him say that?
11
Yes,
in the distance that I was at because
12
I think that was he was in pain based on the
13
gunshots due to his body because he was taking them.
14
Did you see any blood?
15
I didn't see any blood, but I seen that
16
the gun was fired off into his upper torso.
17
And you heard him say, stop shooting me?
18
Stop shooting me.
19
At what point was he saying,
21
When they came close.
22
Was his hands raised when he said that?
23
Still, still his hands was still raised.
24
You said the officer shot at him several
20
25
stop shooting
me?
times in his torso when his hands were raised?
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Yes, ma'am.
How close were they when the officer was
shooting at him when his hands were raised?
walk it out for you.
and I'm Mike Brown, tell me when to stop.
Like if you are the officer
Come further.
Up closer?
Okay.
Get the arms up like, okay, so he's
shooting.
10
So they're this close?
11
At this point right here.
12
I can
And as he was
shooting, he was moving back because they got close.
13
Like we're a few feet apart?
14
Exactly, and he had his arms up.
15
Okay.
16
The officer starts moving back after
Who starts moving back?
17
shooting, still shooting, he was shooting, and then
18
he start moving back.
19
20
21
And how many times did he shoot him when
Mike Brown had his hands up?

A
Uh,
from what I seen it was multiple, like
22
two to the upper torso, two down to the lower torso
23
and the remaining portion,
24
They start to walk further on Canfield going back
25
this way to where it becomes a blind spot for me
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because of
I'm not able to see at a
certain angle.
So I don't know the closure of the
remaining bullets that caused to the head,
see it because I'm in a blind spot.
I can't
So you didn't see Mike Brown hit the
ground?
I can only assume based on after shot.
You did not see him hit the grown?
10
No,
11
So when you saw him after taking those
12
I did not.
shots to the torso, he was still
13
He was still standing.
14
Standing and walking towards the officer?
15
Yes.
16
Was the officer saying anything?
17
I didn't see the officer's lips move or
18
nothing.
19
20
You would have heard him if he was saying
anything?
21
If he would have said it at a tone to
22
where I was able to hear based on me being on my
23
porch.
24
25
And when Mike Brown said, stop shooting
me?
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I clearly heard him from this point, from
over here to my parking lot.
the street,
Was he loud in your opinion?
Yes, after with the gun, yes.
Stop shooting me, was he saying that,
7
8
9
10
11
I mean, over here in
I was able to still hear this.
yelling that?
A
It was a scream like.
If the bullets is
piercing his skin.

Q
Okay.
You are still on your porch, you
never went downstairs?
12
I went down after he fell to the ground.
13
Okay.
14
So when you are at your porch,
that's when you see what you see?
15
Yes.
16
You don't see anything happening when you
17
go down?
18
I don't see the closure of the situation.
19
Okay.
So from where you were on your
20
porch to where the incident, the shooting was
21
occurring, any idea how far apart you were?
22
23
The distance between my apartment and the
street?
24
Uh-huh.
25
I don't know the radius,
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Okay.
And your vision, is it pretty good?
No,
You got bad vision?
Yeah,
I got bad vision.
I've got bad vision.
I've got
contacts in to where I'm able to see what I saw
because of the daylight.
So your contacts were in then?
Yes, they were.
And your hearing?
10
Yes, it's good.
11
Okay.
12
13
14
15
All right.
So total number of
shots that you heard that morning?

A
I'm going to say at least ten, that's it.
I can't give you no more.

Q
You think ten.
I know you have heard
16
information on the news about the autopsy and where
17
shots were on his body, right?
18
19
20
21
Yes and no, because I did not listen to or
look at a lot of news.

Q
But you know some of the information by
where he received the shots?
22
Yes, yes.
23
Okay.
24
25
I just
Now, do you recall when you first
talked to the police?

A
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I did not talk to the police.

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Who did you talk to?
FBI.
Do you recall when you first talked to the
Yes,
When was that?
It was the following Saturday they came to
FBI?
I do.
everybody's apartment and questioned individuals.
So approximately a week after --
10
Somewhere like that.
11
-- this occurred?
12
Yes, ma'am.
13
And you did give them a statement?
14
Yes,
15
Okay.
16
I did.
As you are telling us here today,
believe you did not see the initial
17
No,
18
-- when he first made contact with the
19
I did not.
police officer?
20
No, ma'am.
21
Okay.
22
You only saw it when the police
officer was pursuing him east on Canfield Drive?
23
Yes, ma'am.
24
And just to make sure I'm clear, were you
25
hearing shots fired as Michael Brown's back was
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turned?
Yes, ma'am.
So it would be reasonable to assume that
he's shooting based on what you are telling us, that
he's shooting at Mike Brown as he's running away?
Yes, ma'am.
You say you didn't hear him?
I didn't hear him say anything.
Initially you thought he actually shot him
10
in the back, right?
11
Initially.
12
Before you knew where the shots were?
13
Exactly.
14
You realized he wasn't shot in the back,
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
does that make sense with what you saw?

A
Yes, it does,
it makes sense,
it does,
it
makes sense to coincide with what I thought.

Q
Okay.
Now, did you see anyone with
Michael Brown when you saw this incident occurring?

A
No, ma'am.
All I seen was Mike Brown
running eastbound on the street.

Q
And tell me again why you believe that he
23
was hit before he turned around?
24
wasn't shot in his back.
25
was shot in his back, why did you think he was hit
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before he turned around?
Because I heard gunshots, you know,
heard the gunshot and when he turned around,
figure he was hit.
subdued hisself like, okay, this is real, you know.
You didn't see anything that gave you the
No,
I did not.
I didn't see no physical
indication on his body whatsoever based on distance.
10
11
And so he immediately submitted,
impression that he was injured?
Okay.
Was it strange to you that he was
walking towards the police officer?
12
No, it was not because he was ready to,
13
guess, give hisself up from running based on being
14
grazed by the bullet and I did not know that
15
information until, like you said, the autopsy came
16
out.
17
But, I mean, with his hands up and walking
18
towards the officer, what was your thinking when you
19
saw him do that?
20
He was ready to give hisself up.
21
And you didn't see him do anything
22
threatening towards the officer?
23
No,
24
Now, you seen the movie clip,
25
I did not, none whatsoever.

I call it
movie, but it's a news clip with the two
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construction workers?
Yes, ma'am.
And there's someone saying he wasn't a
fucking threat?
That was my voice.
You have seen this and you verified that's
your voice?
Yes.
Okay.
10
Now, once he, well, you already
said you didn't see him hit the ground?
11
No,
I did not.
12
So where do you go after --
13
After he's on the ground.
14
I mean, you just hear, see him approaching
15
the officer, the officer is still shooting, what do
16
you do?
17
get closer.
come from my porch.
18
walk and he's laying there dead on the ground.
19
After hearing a couple more shots go off.
20
Did you hear more shots go off from when
21
you were leaving your porch to get out here on
22
Canfield Drive?
23
Yes,
24
Did you see the officer shooting into
25
I did, yes,
I did.
Michael Brown's body as he laid on the ground?
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2
No,
I did not.
I can only assume that
that happened.
Did you see him get shot in the head?
No,
Now, how did you make contact with the
They made contact with me.
Okay.
10
I did not.
FBI?
So they came to your apartment?
(Nods head.)
Okay.
Now, when you initially talked to
11
the FBI, and we've listened to your statements, or
12
Kathi Alizadeh and I have, there is information in
13
there that the officer was standing over him while
14
he laid on the ground and finished him off?
15
You know,
I said that out of an assumption
16
based on me being where I'm from and that can be the
17
only assumption that I have.
18
You didn't see him hit the ground?
19
I didn't physically see none of that
20
21
because of the blind spot in which I'm located at

and this is
, there is a cutoff
22
margin so where I'm not able to see.
23
and my common sense leads me to believe that's what
24
occurred.
25
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officer finished him off?
(Nods heads.)
You did not see that?
I did not physically see that.
Okay.
You never saw the officer standing
over him shooting into his body?
No,
I did not.
Okay.
Uh, my nephew knew Michael Brown, my
Now, did you know Michael Brown?
10
sister knew Michael Brown, he was a friend of my
11
nephew's.
12
sister's house occasionally to play with my nephew
13
and they was real cool and my sister said he was a
14
well-mannered individual.
They played and he came over to my
15
Did you have any interaction?
16
Never whatsoever.
17
Okay.
19
After he died.
20
Okay.
18
21
You learned all of this after he
died?
Now, did you talk to anyone that
day about what happened?
22
As far as who?
23
About what was going on and what you saw
24
and I mean,
25
other neighbors?
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2
Yes, neighbors was conversing with each
other all through the day, all through the night.
Okay.
We was all discombobulated.
What do you mean discombobulated?
Just confused, couldn't believe that it
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
And you were talking?
happened.
Q
Okay, all right.
You went out here where
the body was, was the officer still there?

A
He was present for a few moments or so
until he was relieved.

Q
What's he doing, what did you see him
doing, if anything?
A
Pacing back and forth,
you know, that's
about it.
16
Did he still have his weapon drawn?
17
No, he did not.
18
Anybody appear to give Mike Brown any type
19
20
He had it in the holster.
of assist?
A
They tried to, but they had it taped off
21
where, you know, individuals could not even enter
22
into, not even close relatives could even enter into
23
the scene.
24
Okay.
25
I had to hold off his step dad because he
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1
was so emotional.
You actually held him off?
Held him off.
his son, you know,
He was ready to go and see
I had to use all my strength.
Did you know the police officer Darren
Wilson?
No,
Never had any contact with him whatsoever?
No,
10
I do not.
I did not.
MS. WHIRLEY:
11
Kathi?
(By Ms. Alizadeh) All right.
12
the first time you talked to the FBI, which was a
13
week after this happened, you told them a story that
14
had a bunch of lies, isn't that right?
15
A bunch of lies?
16
Well, you told them that you saw the
17
officer stand over Michael Brown and empty his clip
18
into his body and finish him off, didn't you say
19
that?
20
Well, you know,
I did say that, but it was
21
based on assumption.
22
because the blind spot, me being in
23
24
25
Like I told her earlier

and that's
I'm not able to physically see the closure of
the situation.
Q
FAX 314-241-6750
You told them that you saw Michael Brown

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1
get shot in the back and that's not true,
2
3
is it?
That's not true based on the truth of the
autopsy coming out.
But you told them
Yeah,
You saw Michael Brown get shot in the
I didn't have no indication of where he
7
8
9
10
I told them that.
back?
was shot at based on me seeing what I seen.

Q
And you told them that you saw the officer
11
within an arm's length of Michael Brown shoot him in
12
the head and you didn't see that, did you?
13
Based on assumption.
14
But you told them?
15
Yes,
16
You saw that?
17
Yes,
18
assumption.
19
I did.
I did tell them that based on
And then you also told them that after
20
Michael Brown was on the ground, the officer stood
21
over him and empty his clip into him and finished
22
him off, and you told them that you saw that?
23
Based on assumption again.
24
But you didn't tell them that you were
25
basing that on assumption, you told them that you
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2
saw that?
A
I told them in the second meeting with the
FBI, we all sat down and it was solely based on
assumption because I'm not able to be at a point to
where I'm not able to see.
assumption, if you see the report it says that based
on assumption and my common sense,
physically there, so therefore,
that happened.
10
11
Well, okay.
I told them based on
I wasn't
I can only assume
So I listened to your
statement.
12
You can read it.
13
In your first statement you didn't tell
14
them that you were assuming that,
15
that's what you saw?
16
17
18
you told them that
And that's what the second visit was for
to clarify the first recording.

Q
So in the second interview, they told you
19
that, by the time you gave the second interview, at
20
that point you had seen on the news there was an
21
autopsy?
22
Once again,
I did not look at the TV or
23
listen to reports.
24
as knowing his autopsy,
25
verify my clarification for myself because I did not
FAX 314-241-6750
I looked at the reports as far

I looked at it once to

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know where initially where the bullets landed.
Well, you changed your story in the second
interview to say that when he was running away, the
officer's shot actually grazed him in the arm?
And that's what it did.
And you saw that?
Based on the autopsy once again.
So you are basing all of this on not your
personal observation?
10
Well --
11
-- let me finish my question.
12
Okay.
13
So you are basing this on, not your
14
personal observation, but on just things that you
15
heard in the media?
16
It is concrete once the autopsy come out.
17
I can assume anything based on me looking,
18
know,
19
I don't
I don't know where the bullet was landing.
Didn't you say in your second interview
20
you admitted that those things that you said you saw
21
you really didn't see them and you were basing it on
22
what you had seen in the media?
23
That was the truth based on the autopsy
24
coming back.
25
autopsy, so yeah.
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So it was after you learned that the
things that you said you saw couldn't of had
happened that way, then you changed your story about
what you seen?
Yeah, to coincide with what really
happened.
So is what you're testifying about today
what you really saw or you also basing your
testimony today
10
I'm not --
11
-- let me finish my question.
Are you
12
also basing your testimony today on things that you
13
assumed?
14
You know, it is not a thing of assumption,
15
based on being in the position when it happened in
16
the beginning because I don't know where the bullets
17
was flying to,
18
where they landed.
19
I can only assume that they landed
And that wasn't the truth of the
20
matter being the autopsy came out and gave clarity
21
based on what I thought I saw.
22
lie.
23
emotion and I knew that this individual was getting
24
shot.
25
named, he was getting shot.
The autopsy didn't
I didn't know in the beginning, I was full of
So I assume the portions of the body that I
FAX 314-241-6750
The autopsy came out to

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where it clarified everything where he got shot at
so.
So you assumed when you made your first
statement that the officer stood over him and empty
his clip into him and finished him off?
Once again, based on me being in
and that's
, I can only assume.
only assume.
Why did you assume that?
10
Because some individual getting shot by
11
police, it was like, really, this just didn't
12
happen.
13
I can
I mean, don't you think is it possible
14
that you said that because that's what other people
15
were saying they seen?
16
I didn't base that on anybody else's
17
knowledge of.
18
once again, because I'm in
19
I only based it on my assumption,

and that's
and that's a blind spot.
I only assume
20
based on bullets being fired and a dead body laying
21
on the ground.
22
23
24
25
You never saw Michael Brown fallon the
street?
A
No,
I did not.
I can only assume that he
did because of the bullets that was due to his body.
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And you said that you could clearly hear
Michael Brown saying the thing he said screaming,
right?
He yelled, don't shoot me, stop shooting.
You remember in your first interview
6
7
Michael Brown put his hands up and said okay?

A
He was saying that too as well as the
bullets was going off of his body, okay, he was
saying okay.
10
You never told the agent in your first
11
interview that he was saying don't shoot me, you
12
said he was saying okay.
13
I never told him in the first interview?
14
Yes.
15
It comes out, to actually see somebody get
Do you recall?
16
gunned down, you might miss a couple of things, you
17
know, because it's just a shock to see an officer
18
shoot somebody the way he did.
19
something.
20
So you might forget
And I'm going to correct myself,
I've got
21
my notes from your first interview.
22
Michael Brown said don't shoot, and then you said
23
you saw him fall to the ground and the officer
24
continue to shoot him.
25
and finished him off in the head.
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You said
The officer stood over him

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Once again, based on my location,
When you were interviewed first,
2
3
you said
Michael Brown said don't shoot?
He was saying that, he was saying that.
And then in your second interview you said
7
8
Michael Brown was saying okay.

A
in his upper torso once again.
10
11
12
He was saying okay based on getting shot
And now you are saying he was saying stop
shooting me?
A
He goes don't shoot, stop shooting, okay.
13
There was a whole bundle of things of getting
14
pierced with a bullet to his upper torso once again.
15
And in your interview, your second
16
interview with the FBI, do you remember an attorney
17
named
that was talking to you?
18
Maybe.
19
Black hair guy.
And he said, you know,
20
that it is important that you talk about what you
21
saw and not what you assume happened?
22
Okay.
23
And it was after he explained to you that
24
you have to talk about what you actually saw and you
25
also at that point knew that there was no shots in
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Michael Brown's back, correct?
2
3
there was shot to his back?
5
6
At that point you're saying I didn't know
Well, in your second interview you talk to

about the fact you knew he was grazed
in arm because of the autopsy?
Yes.
You knew about the autopsy results during
your second interview?
10
Based on what I seen with the graze on the
11
arm and him turning around.
12
bullets are concerned, I wasn't concerned about them
13
because of the fact the closure of the bullets, I
14
was only concern of the graze of the arm based on
15
his turning around and putting his arms up and what
16
I seen when he was walking toward the police.
17
was getting shot in the upper torso and lower torso,
18
that's all I can give you based on me visualizing
19
and seeing what I saw, that's it.
20
As far as the other
He
I can't give you the closure of him
21
standing over him and finish him off with a head
22
shot.
23
again, based on me being where I was at in
I don't know.
I don't know.
I assume, once
24
there's a blind spot.
25
can only assume by common sense that occurred.
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2
So today did you see the officer shoot
Michael Brown as he was running away?
Yes,
You saw him shoot Michael Brown as Michael
I did.
Brown was running away?
I saw him shoot in the direction, he
became clear to, once again, he became clear to me
as Mike Brown running eastbound on the street, he
became clear to me when he made hisself visual
10
outside of
11
this is the angle I'm able to see him at.
12
clear to me and I notice that Michael Brown run this
13
way, he became clear to me when he left this
14
building right here,
15
When he became clear to me,

He became
But my question is today, do you remember
16
the officer shooting Michael Brown as Michael Brown
17
was running away?
18
Yes,
19
You saw him shoot him as he's running
I saw him shoot in the direction Mike
20
21
22
23
I do.
away?
Brown was running into, eastbound.

Q
Okay.
And then as you sit here today, do
24
you remember seeing Michael Brown get shot in his
25
chest and his torso?
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Yes,
Do you remember Michael Brown falling on
the ground?
I can only assume him falling on the
ground due to me being in
6
7
I did.
and this
, I wasn't able to see him physically fall

to the ground.
So from
Yes.
10
Michael Brown would have been right around
11
is your where your porch is?
this area, right?
12
Yes, he would of.
13
And so at that point you kind of have a
14
side view of him,
is that fair to say?
15
Side view with a blind spot.
16
Side view with a blind spot?
17
Yes.
18
MS. ALIZADEH:
19
MS. WHIRLEY:
I don't have anything else.

Questions?
20
21
Can you show us on the map at which point Michael
22
Brown turned around?
23
24
25
At what point?
Yes, how far east did he
go?
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here.
around.
He was approximately, he was about right

He was about right here when he turned
(indicating)
4
5
Can you show us where his

body ended up?
6
7
ground.
His body ended up about right there on the

(indicating)
8
9
10
I'm trying to estimate

that distance how far he traveled back to the west
as he was being shot at.
11
12
Right.
I mean,
13
area well, is that 50 feet,
14
like a pretty good distance.
15
16
I don't know that
100 feet, that looks
Yeah, it's a pretty good distance.

That whole time as he's
17
advancing towards the officer he's being shot at and
18
the officer is backing up for part of that,
19
to keep his distance or what's happening in your
20
mind?
21
I guess
In my mind I see Mike Brown with his hands
22
up once again, and they are coming closer and I'm
23
like, why is you shooting this individual if he's
24
showing a surrender, you know,
25
started backing up and still letting rounds off
FAX 314-241-6750
I don't get it.

314-241-6750
He
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October 27,2014
Page 85
like,
you don't pose no threat, what is the threat.
So I'm really puzzled, you know.
Okay, thank you.
How you doing.
I have some questions.
You said that you made your changes in your story
after, urn, the facts were revealed from the autopsy?
Yes.
10
11
So you said that Michael

Brown was running eastbound?
12
Yeah.
13
14
Okay.
officer was shooting at him?
15
Yes.
16
17
And the police
And you saw him get shot

in the upper torso story?
18
Yes,
19
I did.
So are you telling us
20
that he got shot in the upper torso through his
21
back?
22
23
24
No.
Okay.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
What I'm saying is based on -Not assumption,

314-241-6750
I want to
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know what you saw.
know he was shot?
Did you see blood, how did you
Well, basically his upper torso I was able
to see with my own two eyes.

Okay.
6
7
And after he
turned around?
A
After he turned around, the officer is
coming closer, he's coming closer and I was able to
physically see, no assumptions.
10
11
Okay.
A
He was shooting in his upper torso.
12
13
Okay.
A
And I seen this.
14
15
16
And how do you know he

was shot?
A
Cause I seen it with my eyes.
17
Okay.
What did you see
18
blood, did you see holes, did you see smoke, what
19
did you see?
20
21
I seen the gun being fired,
being fired into his upper torso.
22
23
24
I seen the gun
You saw the gun being

fired towards Michael Brown?
A
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.
You didn't see anything,

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a jerk or a fall or anything that would lead you to
believe,
to lead you to believe that he was shot.
see him, you saw him get shot at?
I'm just playing the devil's advocate here,
I seen him get shot.

Okay.
6
7
You didn't
I didn't see him get shot at.
At that
point you are asking me, but as far as when he was
running eastbound is when he get shot at, that's
10
shot at, but being shot.
11
12
Okay.
A
I seen him get shot in his upper torso.
13
Okay.
And what makes you
14
say he got shot, did you see the holes, did you see
15
the blood?
16
The distance between the officer and
17
Michael Brown and where he had his gun raised,
18
seen him physically get shot in his upper torso.
19
Okay.
And you say he was
20
moving toward the police with his arms up and he was
21
not posing a threat?
22
23
None whatsoever.
Okay.
And I'm going to
24
ask you this, and I believe you, but you live there
25
so you knew he wasn't a threat to you, but if you
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were a police officer and he's still moving toward
you, how could you be sure that the police officer
didn't think he was a threat?
and I were being shot at, even though I had my hands
up,
If I were being shot
I'd get on the ground.

Couldn't it be possible, why didn't he
stop moving?
I mean, it would seem to me that there
could still be perceived as a threat if he's still
moving toward the police officer and the police
10
officer is backing up.
11
point,
12
I just want you to tell me if it's possible?

It may be possible in your world.
13
In my world?
14
Yeah.
15
16
17
Look at it from another
Okay.
What does that
mean?
A
That means that you more than likely not
18
to be shot the way he was shot.
19
being as young as he is, not knowing the seriousness
20
the situation.
21
his torso to get down on his knees because he's
22
thinking to hisself,
23
what is he doing.
24
he's here to protect and serve.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
So he did not know,
After getting pierced with the gun,
I'm assuming that this officer
He's here to protect and serve,
If you were being shot,

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2
wouldn't you want to get down on the ground?

A
Immediately, but he did not know,
apparently, he did not know to get down on the
ground.
So I want to ask you a
question.
quite a distance that he moved toward the police
officer, 50 to 100 feet?
Again, about that, and you say it was
Uh-huh.
10
11
12
Okay.
And at that point
he was out of your sight?

A
Uh-huh, correct.
So you don't know, he's
13
14
moving toward the police officer, even though he has
15
his hands up, he's still moving towards him.
16
After getting shot in the upper torso.
17
18
After getting shot in the

upper torso, how many times has he been shot?
19
20
about.
21
I say,
I say, about four times,
I think
Four times in upper
22
torso?
23
24
portion.
25
again.
FAX 314-241-6750
Two upper torso and two down lower

At that point it becomes a blind spot once

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So he's been shot four
1
2
times, he's still moving forward, he hasn't gotten
down on the ground, and then he gets out of your
sight and you do not know what happens after that.
You don't know if his hands went down, you don't
know if he charged, you just know that his hands
were up and he was still moving forward.
Correct.
9
10
11
And the police officer

was moving back?
A
Correct.
12
Okay.
So I need to know,
13
you said, and you have to help me understand,
14
to make a good decision here.
15
shooting, but then you said he was saying okay,
16
okay, okay.
17
know what you heard, not what you think you heard or
18
what you heard.
19
You said he said stop
Why are you shooting me.
I'm assuming,
I want
I need to
I'm not going to assume,
20
going to tell you based on you get pierced with a
21
bullet.
22
23
24
I'm
Uh-huh.
A
Multiple things will come out your mouth
you never spoke of.
25
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That's what he was going on.
getting pierced by some bullets.
for his life.

Okay.
He was
He was pleading
Thank you.
You have said
earlier today that your story matched those of the
construction workers, did you talk to them earlier
that day?
No,
I did not.
10
11
12
Did you talk to them after

this incident happened?
A
We don't even know each other.
13
14
15
Okay.
communicated since this incident?
A
I haven't communicated to him, no.
16
17
18
How do you know that your

story matches their story?
A
Excuse me?
19
20
21
You haven't
How do you know that your

story matches their story?
A
I say this much, we was looking in the
22
same direction at the same given time.
23
differs, then we both blind.
24
Thank you.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
If it
Immediately

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after the shooting stops, were you still on your
balcony?
I started to get closer because I was
curious to want to know why was the extra rounds let
off.
Okay.
cars go by?
Did you see any
Traffic stopped because of the officer's
blocking off Canfield.
10
Okay.
So from the time
11
that you were on your balcony to the time that you
12
started getting closer to where Michael Brown had
13
fallen, did you notice any cars going up and down
14
Canfield.
15
16
None whatsoever.
I'm sorry, one other
17
question.
18
running from the police officer, he first came into
19
your field of vision, as he's running east towards
20
the Northwinds Apartments, can you describe how he
21
was running, was he in a dead sprint.
22
When you saw, when Michael Brown was
It wasn't so much of a dead sprint, he was
23
light footed, he had socks on.
24
get little, in this expression I mean little, he was
25
trying to get up, but he wasn't fast,
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October 27,2014
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fast.
It was a moderate pace, you know.
Okay.
And at that point
he turned and as he's turning, his hands go up in
the air?
That's correct.
And he starts moving back
towards the police officer and the police officer is
moving back.
moving at that particular point?
10
11
Was it, can you describe how he was
The way in which he was walking toward
West Florissant?
12
Yes.
13
He was walking at a moderate pace to where
14
he has his arms up, he was walking like this at a
15
moderate pace.
There was not no running whatsoever.
16
17
Okay.
started to hear what he had to say?
18
Because the gunshots was going off.
19
20
And that's when you
Okay, all right, thank

you.
21
At the
22
point that you see him coming back with his hands
23
up, did he ever appear to you that he was charging
24
the police officer?
25
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None whatsoever, not to me.

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Did it appear to you that
1
2
3
he put his hands on his shirt or in his pants?

A
No indication of that whatsoever.
Thank you.
Prior
to this incident, have you ever seen anyone or view
anyone shot before?
I, myself, have been shot before.

Okay.
10
11
And where did you
get shot?
A
In the arm, in the lower torso.
12
Okay.
And can you tell me
13
what distance you were shot, was it the same
14
distance at which Michael Brown was shot?
15
Much closer.
16
Much closer, okay.
17
when you were shot, did you immediately start
18
bleeding?
19
Yes,
I did.
20
Okay.
21
22
23
And
Were
you shot by the police?
A
(Shakes head.)
24
Did you
25
say that you ever got a visible facial expression,
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2
the police officer, could you see his face at all?

A
Yeah, he was looking based on what I seen,
just in a state of confusion,
best I can express it to be.
5
6
Is this afterwards?
A
Yes.
7
8
9
10
I guess, that's the
Could you see him at all

during?
A
Yeah, he was in the street.
He was pacing
back and forth talking to his fellow officer.
11
Okay.
While Michael was
12
running, could you see the police officer, did he
13
ever become visual?
14
15
point.
16
in view.
He became visual to me after he left this

I was able to visibly see him when he came
17
18
19
Could you see his face of

any color issue or anything?
A
At that time there wasn't no physical
20
damage to his face that people say, there was
21
nothing on his face.
22
Thank you.
23
24
25
MS. ALIZADEH:
, you came down
to the scene closer eventually; is that right?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes,
I did.

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MS. ALIZADEH:
that area?
Anybody you recognize?
A lot of people that live in the complex.

MS. ALIZADEH:
You recognize anybody that
you know by name.
Yeah,
I did.
MS. ALIZADEH:
10
A lot of people.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Did you see people around
What names do you remember
seeing down there?
11
Urn, they got nicknames, they don't have
12
even use their real names over there.
13
lot of people that live in the complex with me.
14
seen
15
and they was just in awe.
, a lot of other little people
16
MS. ALIZADEH:
17
happening,
18
workers there.
19
So there is a
20
And as the shooting was
I know you said you saw the construction
Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:
As the shooting was
21
happening, not afterwards, as it was happening, did
22
you see anybody that was in this vicinity?
23
going to generally say, did you see anybody that was
24
on foot in this general vicinity?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Did I see anybody on foot?

314-241-6750
I'm just
They only came
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about being out there when they heard what they
heard or seen what they seen based on Mike Brown
being on the ground.

MS. ALIZADEH:
and
godmother?
10
She's play mom, she stays next door to me.
MS. ALIZADEH:
13
Yes, she was out there.
MS. ALIZADEH:
I wasn't,
nobody.
15
a blockage.
I wasn't paying attention to
I was zoning in to what I seen.
16
18
Where was she when you
first saw her?
14
17
Did you ever see her that
day?
11
12
So did you ever see,
is your stepmom, not stepmom,
Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
I just had
You said you saw her
out there?
A
After I came from my porch and everybody
19
kind of gathered up as Mike Brown laid on the
20
ground.
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
You weren't paying
22
attention to anything before you saw her at the
23
scene after he was on the ground?
24
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Exactly.
MS. ALIZADEH:
All right.

314-241-6750
Did you talk to
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her about what you had seen?
No, no.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Did she talk to you about
what she had seen?

No, she kept stuff to herself, you know,
like I was.
It's like, it is hers, you know.
MS. ALIZADEH:
9
10
11
14
Did you ever,
see?
Exactly.
MS. ALIZADEH:
You never saw Michael Brown
on his knees?
No,
I did not.
15
MS. ALIZADEH:
16
MS. WHIRLEY:
All right.
Did you know

prior to August 9th?
18
A
I've seen her off and on.
20
21
Thank you.
Anybody else?
17
19
I know there
is a part of it at the end that you say you didn't
12
13
I'm like, did this really just happen.
So you have met her?

A
Yes, off and on.
Just,
just the situation
22
just brought everybody close together in a sense
23
because, you know, you see people passing and you go
24
hi, bye, it is just that.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.

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Will
1
2
3
you tell us why you were shot?

A
Could you repeat the question?
4
5
6
Why you got shot,

somebody shot you?
A
Why did I get shot?

Yes.
Urn, it was a misunderstanding between me
and a brother-in-law.
10
11
Between you and who?

A
A brother-in-law.
It was a family related
12
situation to where you know, it just occurred.
13
That's not on the record?
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
15
MS. WHIRLEY:
16
MS. ALIZADEH:
Pardon me.
Any other questions?
, is there
17
anything else that you can think of or that we
18
haven't asked you that you think is important for
19
this grand jury to know and understand when they
20
make their decision?
21
Basically I think you guys are doing your
22
best to dissect and analyze this case.
23
that you be forever mindful of both sides, of both
24
families and give just due.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
I just ask
Anyone else have

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anything any other questions?
All right.
.)
9
10
to-wit:
EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
11
12
13
Could you tell us your name?
Okay.
remember when I told you
14
you are going to have to speak up so we can hear you
15
all the way back here?
16
Yes.
17
So first of all,
18
can you spell your name
for the court reporter?
19
20
Can I call you
21
Yes.
22
How old are you?
23
24
25
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And when was your birthday?

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You live with your mom; is that right?
Yes.
Now,
your mom doesn't live in Canfield
Green; is that correct?
No.
Who lives in Canfield Green that you know?
My dad.
And do you know what your dad's address
10
11
Okay.
is?
don't know.
Do you remember when the police
12
first came to talk to you on the day of the
13
shooting?
14
Yes.
15
Were you at your father's apartment when
16
they talked to you?
17
Yes.
18
Okay.
So if the,
can you look on this
19
map, this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.
These
20
are the buildings and the roads that are in Canfield
21
Green,
can you see where your building is?
22
No.
23
Okay.
No.
Do you know that your address is,
24
25
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You don't know that?
No.
Okay.
So here is
So if your dad
told the police that on the day that you were
interviewed that that was your address, would that
be, do you have any reason that your dad wasn't
truthful, right, your dad told the police where you
lived?
Uh-huh.
10
Okay.
11
when they interviewed you, your dad's house?
12
Yes.
13
Okay.
14
And the police were at your house
here.
So here is
on the map right
Do you know what floor your dad lives on?
15
Third floor.
16
The top floor?
17
Uh-huh.
18
And so when you were in your dad's
19
apartment and you look out the window, the front
20
windows, you can see Canfield Drive; is that right?
21
Yes.
22
Okay.
Now, were you staying with your dad
23
when you were on, August 9th that day were you
24
staying there, like the weekend or something?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.
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Do you spend weekends with your dad?
Yes.
Do you know people in the complex, do you
have friends in the complex?
No, that was my second time over there.
That was the second time you had ever been
there?
Uh-huh.
Have you been there since?
10
Yes, once.
11
Did you know, now you know that this is
12
about the day that Michael Brown got shot, right?
13
Yes.
14
Did you know Michael Brown before that
16
No.
17
Had you ever seen him in the complex?
18
No.
19
All right.
15
20
day?
Do you know a guy named Dorian
Johnson or DJ?
21
No.
22
Okay.
Urn,
so why don't you tell the grand
23
jurors what you were doing on that day on August 9th
24
when you heard something?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Urn,
I was listening to some music on the

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2
TV until I heard some screaming.

Q
Okay.
Nobody can hear you back here.
That microphone isn't going to amplify your voice.
So let's practice something, say
10
11
A little louder low.
There you go, okay.
I know you can do it.
I bet you raise your voice sometimes, right?
12
13
14
But louder?
(Nods head.)
All right.
So on the day that the
shooting happened you were at your dad's, right?
15
Yes.
16
Where in the apartment were you, is your
17
dad's apartment a two bedroom or one bedroom?
18
One.
19
One bedroom?
20
Uh-huh.
21
So when you would stay at your dad's,
22
where would you, would you sleep in the living room?
23
The living room.
24
Like on a couch?
25
Yes.
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And so, urn, when you're in the living room
and you look out the windows, do you look onto
Canfield?
Yes.
Okay.
So I think you said that, were you
in the living room when you heard something?

A
Q
A
Q
A
13
No,
14
On YouTube?
15
Yes.
16
Was it on a computer then or on TV?
17
It was on a game.
18
On a game?
19
Yes.
20
Like a handheld kind of game?
21
Yeah.
22
What kind of game was it?
23
A Play Station III.
24
Okay.
25
I was YouTube.
So this is a game that plays on
your TV?
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Yes.
Was the music turned up real loud?
Like
sometimes my kids turn their music up really, really
loud, was your music up loud?
No.
And what happened that suddenly drew your
attention to something?
I heard some screaming.
And did the screaming, did you think it
10
was inside the apartment or outside the apartment?
11
Outside.
12
And did you,
could you tell at that time
13
if it was a man's scream or a woman's scream or a
14
boy's scream?
15
Urn, no.
16
You couldn't tell?
17
No.
18
Was the scream a word or words or was it
19
just a sound?
20
It was just a sound.
21
Prior to the scream, did you hear anything
22
else that drew your attention?
23
No.
24
So that's the first thing that you heard
25
that you thought, what was that?
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Yes.
All right.
heard the scream?
So what did you do when you
I walked to the window and started to look
out the window.
So now in your living room, because we
heard people talk about the apartments there,
there a sliding glass door?
is
Yes.
Q
A
13
door?
A
16
17
18
open or closed?
A
They was open, but there was some missing
so I didn't have to touch the blinds.
19
They were open?
20
Yes.
21
You didn't have to touch them?
22
Yes.
23
They were in a way where you could look
24
25
through the blinds?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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So the blinds were across the window, but
they were open?
Yes.
All right.
window,
else home with you?
So when you looked out the
let me ask you first.
Was there anybody
No.
So when you looked out the window from
9
10
11
12
13
what did you see when you looked out the

window?
A
I saw a police car parked in a funny kind
of way.
Q
Okay.
Let's back up.
I'm going to repeat
14
what you say so everybody can make sure they hear
15
your answers and you tell me if,
16
if I say something and it is not what you said, you
17
need to correct me, okay?
remember if I say
18
All right.
19
So you said you saw a police car?
20
Yes.
21
Was it, can you describe the car?
22
Urn,
23
A truck?
24
Uh-huh.
25
So are we talking about like a pickup
FAX 314-241-6750
I guess it was a truck.

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truck or like an SUV truck?
Like an SUV truck.
Okay.
Did it have markings on it or was
it just a plain color?

It was a white car with blue police light
on it.
police SUV?
All right.
Now,
so this was a marked
You said it was what?
11
it?
12
Yes.
13
That said police?
14
Yes.
15
Did it have a light bar on the top of the
16
truck?
17
Yes.
18
Were the lights on?
19
No.
20
Okay.
21
So you see the police truck and you
said it was parked in the street?
22
Yes.
23
You said it was kind of,
24
25
I can't remember,
did you say it was kind of parked funny?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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How so?
It was like it was in the street kind of
3
4
like tilted so nobody could get past.

Q
Okay.
So from where you were looking at
it, which side of the police truck were you looking
at, the driver's side or the other side?
The driver's side.
And so if this is the map of that street
and if you live here, can you use this, this is a
10
pointer, if you press that button see look, so you
11
can use this to point on here.
12
there where the truck was when you saw it parked
13
kind of funny?
Can you point on
14
It was about right there.
15
So pretty much in front of your apartment?
16
Yes.
17
Okay.
18
(indicating)
And so when you looked out and saw
the police car, did you see any people?
19
Yes,
20
One other person?
21
Uh-huh.
22
And what did that person look like?
23
He was dark skin, had dreads and he had on
24
25
I saw one other person.
a black shirt.
Q
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And where was he?

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2
3
4
A
the side.
He was standing about like right here on

(indicating)
So he was a little, a little further down
the street east from where the police car was?
Yes.
So if he,
from where he was,
could he
reach out and touch the police car?
No.
No.
10
Yes.
11
What was he doing?
12
He was just sitting there watching.
13
So when you say he was sitting there, was
14
Too far away to touch it?
he actually sitting?
15
No, he was standing.
16
Was he in the street or on the side?
17
On the sidewalk.
18
On the sidewalk?
19
20
21
(Nods head. )
Was he on the opposite side of the street
or was he on your side of the street?
22
Opposite side.
23
Okay.
24
25
And so did you see anybody else on
the street or around the police car?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
I saw two cars trying to get through

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coming from each direction.
So were these regular cars or police cars?
Regular cars.
And you said they were going east to west,
were they going this way on Canfield?
6
7
the other way.
8
9
One was going that way and one was going
that way?
(indicating)
One was coming this way and one was coming

(indicating)
10
Yes.
11
Were they able to get by?
12
Yes.
13
So they went ahead and passed the police
15
Uh-huh.
16
And did the car that was going westbound,
14
17
car?
did that pass the police car too?
18
Yes.
19
Okay.
20
What was going on at or around the
police car, did you see anything?
21
Yes.
22
What did you see?
23
I saw, urn, the man like trying to pull
24
away from the police, pull his arm out of the police
25
car.
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2
Okay.
So let's stop.
You said you saw
the man was trying to pull away from the police car?
Yes.
So is this the man with the dreads in the
black shirt?
No.
So this is another person.
So let's
describe this person, what did he look like from
what you could see?
10
11
I saw a red hat,
some yellow and black
socks and flip flops.
12
All right.
13
14
Was it a ball cap style hat?
15
Yes.
16
Okay.
17
Yellow and black.
18
Yellow and black.
19
Red hat, what kind of hat?
think the Cardinals.
And you said what color socks?
And then you said some
Nike flip flops?
20
Yes.
21
And what about his shirt, could you tell
22
what kind of shirt he had on?
23
No,
24
Khaki shorts?
25
Uh-huh.
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I saw khaki shorts he had on.

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And so when you looked out and you saw
him, were you looking at his back, his side or his
front?
His back.
And so could you see his face when you
were looking out, when you first looked out?
No.
Was this,
I mean, we've said a he, it was
a male, correct?
10
Yes.
11
Was he African-American?
12
Yes.
13
And can you give me an idea of how old he
14
might have been?
15
Like 17 or 18.
Q
A
19
No.
20
What about his size, what was his size
22
I'd say about 210.
23
About what?
24
210.
25
Like that would be his weight, 210?
21
like?
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About how tall, how tall are you
5'8".
And looking at what you could see of this
(Nods head.)
person, did he look like he was taller than that?
Yes.
All right.
first,
trying to pull away.
10
And so where was he when you
you said that you saw him look like he was

Where was he when you first
looked out and saw him?

A
12
away.
13
Pull away from what?
14
The police car, inside the police car.
15
So he was at the side of the police car?
16
His arm was.
17
His arm was?
18
(Nods head.)
19
Describe what you remember seeing.
Is he
20
next to the police car, in front of the police car,
21
behind the police car?
22
He was next to it.
23
Was he on the driver's side or on the
24
other side?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Driver's side.

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2
Was he closer to the front of the car or
the middle of the car or the back of the car?
The front.
Okay.
Could you see, you said his arm,
you said something about his arm, what was his arm
doing?
His arm was inside the police vehicle.
All right.
His arm was inside the police
vehicle?
10
Yes.
11
Do you remember which arm?
12
No.
13
And did you get any,
14
could you see what
was going on inside the police vehicle?
15
No.
16
Could you see if there was anyone inside
17
the police vehicle?
18
I wasn't paying attention to that.
19
Okay.
21
Yes.
22
And one of his arms is inside the police
20
23
So at this point you just notice
him?
vehicle?
24
Yes.
25
So I don't want to assume anything, but is
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it, is the door open, is the window open, how is it
that his arm is inside the vehicle?
The window is down.
Okay.
Which window, the front,
driver's window or back window?
The driver's window.
All right.
like the
And so you said he was like
trying to pull away?
Yes.
10
Okay.
Can you describe what you mean by
11
that, what was he doing that you say it looked like
12
he was trying to pull away?
13
14
15
16
Because he had one of his arms on the
police vehicle moving back trying to pull away.

Q
So one of his arms was on the police
vehicle?
17
(Nods head.)
18
And the other one was inside?
19
Yes.
20
And you think he was trying to pull away?
21
Yes.
22
Could you see why he couldn't walk away
23
from the vehicle, could you tell what was keeping
24
him from
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I guess he was grabbing on like.

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2
Okay.
And you're guessing that or you can
see it?
I'm guessing.
So you couldn't tell what was holding him
from pulling away?
No.
You said it was like he was trying to pull
Yes.
10
And, okay.
11
Then, uh,
12
13
14
away?
So what did you see then?

I seen the police officer try to
tase him.
Q
Okay.
So you said you saw the police
officer try to phase him?
15
Uh-huh.
16
Could you see a police officer?
17
You said, did I see a police officer?
18
Yeah.
19
Yes.
20
Okay.
21
In the car.
22
Was he in the back or the front?
23
The front.
24
Was he in the passenger or driver's side?
25
Driver's side.
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Where was the police officer?

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And you said you saw him try to tase him?
Yes.
So what do you mean by that, describe what
4
5
6
you saw?
A
I saw him pullout something.
I also saw
something go past.
You saw who pull out something?
The police officer.
All right.
10
And did you see where he
pulled it out of?
11
No.
12
And what did this thing that he pulled out
13
look like?
14
15
thing.
16
I'm sorry, it was like a yellow?
17
Yellow and block.
18
Yellow and black?
19
Yes.
20
So you described it, you said that he
21
It looked like a yellow and black kind of
tried to tase him, have you seen a taser before?
22
No.
23
All right.
24
looks like?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Uh,
What do you think a taser
I think it is yellow and black.

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Okay.
So does it look like, all right.
You said the officer had that in his hand.
remember which hand it was in?
Do you
Q
A
Q
A
10
the car?
11
Yes.
12
Okay.
13
And you said you saw something come
out of it?
14
Uh-huh.
15
Did you hear anything?
16
No.
17
You didn't hear any kind of pow or noise?
18
Not until he shot.
19
Okay.
20
So at this point something comes
out of the taser?
21
Yes.
22
What did that look like?
23
It was like a string.
24
Like a string?
25
Like a metal string.
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2
Okay.
And so does that look like it hit
the boy or the man at the car?
No.
Did you see that it didn't hit him or you
couldn't tell?
I saw that it didn't hit him.
So did it go past his body then?
Yes.
Have you ever seen like a taser being
10
fired like on television or anything?
11
No.
12
You never seen a taser being fired?
13
No.
14
Okay.
So then what happened then you saw
15
the taser and the thing came out and went past the
16
boy in the car, what happened then?
17
I saw him pullout his gun.
18
You what?
19
I saw him pullout his gun.
20
You saw him with his gun?
21
Yes.
22
You saw who with his gun?
23
The officer.
24
So where did the gun come from,
25
did you
see how the gun came into the picture?
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No.
Did the gun look different than the taser?
No.
It looked like the same thing?
Just a different color.
Different color.
So the taser kind of
looks like a gun?
Yes.
Only it was yellow and black?
10
Yes.
11
And then a string thing came out of it?
12
Yes.
13
And the gun, what color was that?
14
Black.
15
Was the officer still in the car or out of
16
17
18
19
20
the car or where?

A
He was just about to get out.
He was
opening up the door.

Q
Okay.
So you saw the officer opening up
the door?
21
Yes.
22
And did he get out of the car?
23
Yes, but he waited until after he fired
24
25
the shot.
Q
FAX 314-241-6750
Let's back up then.
You saw the gun and

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do you know what hand the officer had it in?
No.
You said that he fired a shot?
Yes.
Where was the boy who had been at the car,
where was he when the shots were fired?
He was at the apartment complexes.
Was he running into the apartment complex
when the shot was fired from the gun?
10
Yes.
11
Okay.
12
gun being shot while the boy was up at the car?
13
Yes.
14
Okay.
15
So did you ever see or hear that
So let's back up.
You see a taser
being fired and then you see the gun?
16
Yes.
17
And the first shot of the gun, where was
18
the boy when it was first shot?
19
He was still at the car.
20
Still at the car?
21
(Nods head. )
22
And then what happened?
23
Then that's when he took off.
24
He took off.
25
Yes.
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And then where did he go?
He ran down the street.
So when you say he ran down the street,
was that Canfield Drive?
Yes.
And did he run west towards West
Florissant or east towards Northwinds Apartments?
East.
So the officer got out of the car?
10
Yes.
11
Do you remember talking to the police
12
about what you had seen?
13
Yes.
14
Okay.
15
And did the officer have any
trouble getting out of his car?
16
No.
17
Okay.
Do you remember telling them that
18
the officer opened the door to shoot and then got
19
out of the car?
20
Yes,
21
So where was the officer when he first
22
I remember.
shot the gun?
23
He was still in the car.
24
In the car?
25
(Nods head.)
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So when you said that he opened the door
to shoot, when he first shot the gun, was the car
door open or closed?
Open.
It was what?
Open.
Open.
10
So he had opened his door?
(Nods head.)
And Michael Brown was still at the
vehicle?
11
Yes.
12
Okay.
13
Yes, he opened it.
14
So was Michael Brown hit by the door when
15
Did he open his door all the way?
the door open?
16
No.
17
And I said Michael Brown, you know that's
18
Michael Brown, right?
19
Yes.
20
Okay.
21
So was he farther away from the
vehicle when the door came open?
22
He was like almost towards the back.
23
So he had started moving at that point?
24
Yes.
25
And he was close to the rear of the
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vehicle?
Yes.
And so you, when the officer fired the
gun, was he still sitting in the driver's seat?
Yes, he was still sitting.
So he would of had to turn around,
if he
was shooting at Michael Brown and he was close to
the rear of his vehicle, did he have to lean out and
turn around?
10
Yes, he was halfway out.
11
Halfway out of the car?
12
13
14
(Nods head.)
And so after that shot, did you see where
that shot went?
15
No.
16
No?
17
No.
18
What happened then?
19
That's when he kept running.
20
So Michael Brown kept running?
21
I guess.
22
Okay.
Don't guess.
I thought that's what
23
you said he kept running.
24
it because I want to make sure they hear you.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I'm just trying to repeat
After that first shot I turned to look

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away,
guess, or whatever.
3
4
I thought everything, he had him in custody,
So after that first shot, you turned away
and you didn't watch it?
Yeah,
Okay.
I didn't watch it.

Was there something that was going
on that drew your attention away from what was going
on outside?
No.
10
Why is it that you turned away?
11
Because I didn't hear no more gunshots
12
until, actually,
13
more.
14
I sat down and then I heard some
All right.
So when you say you turned
15
away, let's back up.
When you were looking out the
16
sliding glass door, were you sitting down or
17
standing up?
18
Standing up.
19
And so when you turned away, did you
20
actually turn your body away from this or did you
21
just not look?
22
I turned my body away.
23
Did you then go back into the living room?
24
You say what?
25
Did you stay in the living room?
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Yes.
Did you go sit down?
Yes.
All right.
So once you turned away, now
at this point you said, you have gotten to the point
where you said you heard one gunshot?
Uh-huh.
And you saw the officer shooting his gun
as Michael Brown was running away?
10
Yes.
11
Or he was near the back of the vehicle?
12
He was running, yes, he was.
13
Can you tell me where Michael Brown was,
14
how his body was when you saw that first gunshot,
15
was he facing the officer, was he facing away from
16
the officer?
17
He was facing away.
18
Facing away.
19
you saw that first gunshot?
20
Yes.
21
Okay.
22
Had he started to run when
And then you turned away from the
window and you sat back down?
23
Yes.
24
Did you hear anything after that?
25
Yes.
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What did you hear?
I heard several more gunshots.
Okay.
Were those was there a pause
between any of those gunshots?
No.
And you said several or seven,
I want to
make sure?
Several.
Several?
10
Uh-huh.
11
Can you in your head imagine them and see
12
if you can tell me how many you think there were?
13
Four to five.
14
Okay.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
And then what, if anything, did you
do after you heard those four to five shots?

A
I stood there and watch him get on his
walkie-talkie thing and I saw more officers come.

Q
hear you.
A
Okay.
So I got to come up here so I can
You still what?

I stood right there and I saw him get on
his little radio thing.

Q
So let's go back.
So at some point you
went back to the window?
24
Yes.
25
When the four or five shots went off, were
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you still on the couch or were you up at the window?
I was still on the couch.
Okay.
window, what did you see, was it still going on?
No.
Okay.
7
8
9
10
11
So when you went back to the
What did you see when you looked
back out the window?

A
I saw him laying down.
He was already on
the radio.
Q
You said you saw him laying down, so would
that be Michael Brown?
12
Yes.
13
And he was bleeding?
14
Yes.
15
Can you use the pointer and show me where
16
he was laying down?
17
18
19
(Indicating. )
Was he me the street, or in the grass or
on the sidewalk?
20
In the street.
21
Where was the officer?
22
He was over him.
23
Over him?
24
Uh-huh.
25
So standing over him?
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Yes.
What was he doing?
He was like on his radio thing.
So you pointed to your shoulder, was he
talking, did it look like he was talking on a radio
on a shoulder?
Yes.
Could you hear what he was saying?
No.
10
Did you hear Michael Brown and the
11
officer, other than the scream that you heard, did
12
you ever hear them say anything?
13
No.
14
Did you ever hear any other screams?
15
No.
16
When you say the officer was standing over
17
him and he was talking on the radio, did the officer
18
still have his gun?
19
Yes, he still had it out.
20
Where was it?
21
In his right hand.
22
So it was still out?
23
Yes.
24
Was he shooting it?
25
No.
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After you turned away, after you saw the
first gunshot, did you ever see the officer fire the
gun?
No.
So when you looked, when you said that his
gun was out, can you stand up for me and show them
how it was?
How the officer was?
Yeah.
10
He was like this on his thing.
11
(indicating)
12
So the gun was like down at his side?
13
Yes.
14
Was it pointed at anybody?
15
No.
16
Okay.
17
You can sit back down.

Now, at some point you were talking
18
to the police you told them that you saw, well,
19
initially when you were first interviewed you said,
20
and I want to make sure I get it right.
21
saw a man with his hands in a police car trying to
22
snatch it away and then he got away.
23
remember saying that?
24
Uh-huh.
25
What do you mean by that.
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You said I
Do you
That he was
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trying to snatch it away,
by that?
3
4
grabbing,
I don't know what you mean
Like he was trying to prevent him from

keep grabbing his arm.
Okay.
So let's clarify.
When you say I
saw a man with his hands in a police car trying to
snatch it away, who was trying to snatch something
away?
The deceased.
10
Michael Brown?
11
Uh-huh.
12
What was he trying to snatch away?
13
His hand.
14
So he was trying to get his hand out of
15
the police car?
16
Yes.
17
Did you see anything in his hand?
18
No.
19
Okay.
And then you also said in the
20
second, now you, last week you actually met with the
21
FBI and the attorney and gave them another
22
statement, right?
23
Yes.
24
And that was downtown at their FBI
25
headquarters?
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Yes.
Or did they come to your house?
Downtown.
Downtown.
Okay.
And you said at that
time you said the officer, it was like the officer
was trying to pull him into the car, did you say
that just last week?
Yes.
So describe what you saw that makes you
10
say that?
11
Okay.
12
So you saw who pulling away?
13
The deceased.
14
Okay.
15
16
17
Cause I saw him pulling away so.
And why is it that you say you saw
the officer was trying to pull him into the car?

A
Because I saw him going in like a back and
forth motion.
18
A back and forth motion?
19
Yes.
20
So did you ever see the officer, other
21
than the time you saw the taser and then saw the
22
gun, did you ever see the officer's hands?
23
No.
24
So when you say a back and forth motion,
25
what was moving back and forth?
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Urn, the
The arms?
The decease's body.
The decease's body?
Yes.
Was it moving forward and back, or was it
--
from side to side or both?
Forward and back.
Forward and back?
10
Yes.
11
And you said already that you saw a hand,
12
one of his hands was inside the police vehicle?
13
Yes.
14
And one was on the police vehicle?
15
Yes.
16
Okay.
And you said you saw the police
17
officer grabbing,
I couldn't understand what you
18
said, and then you said he was reaching for
19
something and he was trying to open the door.
20
Yes.
21
So let's go back.
I couldn't hear on your
22
taped statement because you are so quiet you said
23
you saw the officer grabbing.
24
saying that?
25
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Do you remember
Yes.

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What did you see the officer grabbing?
Pardon me?
You saw him reaching?
Yes.
With his arm or hand?
Hand.
Reaching what?
10
To his side, right side.
11
To his right.
12
just saw him reach.
just saw him reaching.
So you could see officer's
hand reaching to his right side?
13
could see his arm.
14
Yeah.
You said the officer tried to open
15
the door and then he shot his taser.
16
say he tried to open his door, was,
17
assume something, I don't know if that means he
18
couldn't open the door, or he did open the door, but
19
what do you mean when you say he tried to open the
20
door?
21
22
23
24
25
He did, he opened it.
So when you
I don't want to
That's when he
started to open it.

Q
Okay.
Did anything prevent him from
opening the door?

A
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No.

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When he tried to open the door, was
Michael Brown still right up against the car?
No, he was towards the end.
It was towards the end.
Okay.
So Michael
Brown, you already said was backed a little bit away
toward the back of the vehicle?
Yes.
And you also said that one of the things,
one of the reasons why you turned away is you assume
10
that Michael Brown would have been in custody and in
11
handcuffs?
12
Yes.
13
Why did you assume that?
14
Because I didn't hear any more shots.
15
Okay.
16
So when you turned away, you turned
away after the first gunshot?
17
Yes.
18
And then you said you heard four more
19
shots?
20
Yes.
21
Was there any pause between the first
22
gunshot and the four more shots?
23
Yes.
24
Okay.
25
Do you know how long it would have
been?
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About five seconds.
About five seconds?
(Nods head.)
So when you say you turned away and you
didn't look because you assume that Mike Brown or
assume that that guy would have been in custody in
handcuffs, did you assume that before you heard the
four gunshots or after?
Uh, before.
10
Before.
And then you hear four gunshots
11
and then you are went back and looked out the
12
window?
13
Yes.
14
And that's when you saw him on the ground?
15
Yes.
16
When Michael Brown was moving away from
17
the police officer, did you ever see his hands up in
18
the air like this in this motion?
19
20
Okay.
21
22
(indicating)
don't remember.
And so you don't remember?
(Nods head.)
All right.
Did you ever see Michael Brown
23
doing anything with his hands around this area of
24
his midsection?
25
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No.

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No, you didn't?
No.
Because you are shaking your head, no,
don't want to put,
mouth, you tell me, it is yes or no.
don't remember,
is,
I don't want to put this in your

And if you
remember I said the correct answer
I don't remember or I don't know, okay?
Uh-huh.
Did you recall seeing anything like that
10
where his hands were somewhere in this area of his
11
body doing anything?
12
No, I don't.
13
Did you ever see Michael Brown running?
14
Yes.
15
Okay.
So can you describe the way he was
16
running, was he running with his arms at his sides
17
or was he running with his arms outstretched in any
18
way?
19
He was running to the side.
20
Arms to the side?
21
Yes.
22
And so when you saw him running, was he
23
running away from the officer?
24
Yes.
25
Was he running fast or was he kind of
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2
3
jogging or was he?

A
When I saw him he was just starting to
run, so I don't know.
MS. WHIRLEY:
MS. ALIZADEH:
6
7
I didn't hear that.

When he first took off, is
that what you said?

A
Yes.
8
9
10
His speed, how

fast did you see him run or was it like a jog?
A
It was like a jog.
11
Okay.
12
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
And that was when he first
took off?
14
Yes.
15
(By Ms. Alizadeh)
16
slowed down or got faster,
17
that point?
18
Yes.
19
Is that right?
20
Yes.
21
22
23
24
25
MS. ALIZADEH:
other questions.
Q
So whether he stopped or
you stopped looking at
I don't think I have any
Sheila?
(By Ms. Whirley) You said you have never
seen anyone tased before, right?

A
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Yes.

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What made you think he was being tased?
Urn, because I saw like
You got to talk loud enough for me to
I said because I saw him reaching for
4
5
6
7
hear.
something and then I saw a metal string come out.

Q
You sought the officer reach for something
and you saw a metal string come out?
Yes.
10
Okay.
When Mike Brown ran away,
you said
11
he was kind of jogging as he is running away from
12
the officer, was the officer shooting at him?
13
No.
14
Did you hear a shot fired at that point?
15
It got silent.
16
I'm sorry?
17
It was silent.
18
It was silent?
19
Uh-huh.
20
What do you mean?
21
After the first shot,
22
23
24
25
I didn't hear no
more shots until like five seconds later.

Q
Okay.
So the first shot, what was
happening when you heard the first shot?

A
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He was trying to exit the vehicle.

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He was what?
Trying to exit the vehicle.
Where was Mike Brown when the officer is
trying to exhibit the vehicle?
Towards the end.
Towards what?
The end of the car.
He was trying to get away from the car?
Yes.
10
And the officer was exiting the vehicle
11
and shot?
12
Yes.
13
What direction did he shoot at?
14
Like he had, he was halfway out the car.
15
So he turned like towards his way to shoot.
16
Turn towards Michael Brown?
17
Yes.
18
He was shooting at Mike Brown as Mike
19
Brown is running away from the car?
20
Yes, as he's starting.
21
Okay.
22
shots?
23
No.
24
And that's when you stopped looking?
25
Yes.
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When you saw Mike Brown at the driver's
side window, when you said you thought he was trying
to get away?
Yes.
Could you see them pretty clearly?
Yeah,
I'm sorry?
I only saw the side of the officer's face
10
11
12
I only saw the side of the officer's
face.
and I saw the back of Michael Brown.

Q
You could see the back of Mike Brown and
the side of the officer's face?
13
Yes.
14
Could you see their hands, you could see
15
Mike Brown's hands?
16
Yes.
17
Could you see the officer's hands?
18
No,
19
You saw his arms.
20
He had short sleeves.
21
Short sleeves.
22
I just saw his arms.

Did he have on sleeves?
So you could clearly see
his sleeves?
23
Yes.
24
You could tell he was white?
25
Yes.
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How far do you think you were aware from
them, anyway to tell me?
I don't know.
Do you have pretty good eyesight?
Yes.
You don't wear glasses or anything?
No.
So you saw Mike Brown's hands, was Mike
Brown striking the officer?
10
No.
11
When you saw him he wasn't hitting the
12
officer?
13
No.
14
You never saw him with a balled up fist or
15
anything?
16
No.
18
gun?
19
No.
20
You never saw him reach for the officer's
21
gun?
A
24
25
going on in the car?

A
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No.

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You were not?
No.
But you were close enough to see, what
could you see?
Well,
You saw who reaching?
Mike, and then I saw the officer reaching
8
9
10
I saw him reaching and I saw --
for his taser, that's all I saw.

Q
So you could see inside the car, you
thought he was reaching for his taser?
11
But I can barely see.
12
You can see the officer reaching for
13
something?
14
Yes.
15
Did you see Mike's hands go to where the
16
officer's hands were reaching?
17
No.
18
Were you in a position to see?
19
Yes.
20
21
MS. WHIRLEY:
I think that's it for me.
Questions?
22
At any
23
point did you see his whole top of his body, Mike
24
Brown's, go inside the police vehicle?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
No.
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October 27,2014
Page 146
1
Do you know what mace
looks like?
What?
Mace?
No.
You are in
, correct?
Yes.
So you didn't see
10
anybody, a man down in the grass area in a green
11
shirt, or did you?
12
No,
I didn't see nobody.
13
14
You didn't see anybody

out there, no people?
15
16
I saw one person on the sidewalk with a
black shirt.
17
No,
18
19
I'm sorry, what?
I saw one person on the sidewalk with a
black shirt.
20
A person on the sidewalk,
21
can you show me where on the sidewalk that person
22
was?
23
24
25
He was right here.
(indicating)
What about your side of

the street, by your building?
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There was nobody.
2
3
There was nobody there?

A
Nobody.
4
5
6
You know for sure or

didn't see them?
A
I know for sure.

Thank you.
MS. ALIZADEH:
9
10
Did you notice a white lady
out there?
A
11
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Is it that you didn't
12
notice or you say I looked and there wasn't anybody
13
out there.
14
15
16
I looked.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Nobody out there?
Nobody out there.
17
When the
18
officer exited the car, the vehicle, could you see
19
his face?
20
Yes.
21
22
23
Was there any coloration

to his face?
A
24
25
No, he was like a regular white guy.

MS. WHIRLEY:
FAX 314-241-6750
I didn't hear you.
He had a beard and a mustache.

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October 27,2014
Page 148
MS. WHIRLEY:
a mustache.
5
6
11
Huh?
Like a yellow-ish color.

MS. ALIZADEH:
I am just wanting to know
was it like blond, or was it brown or dark?

A
12
13
Like a yellow-ish color.

MS. ALIZADEH:
10
What color was his beard
and mustache.
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
You think he had a beard and
It was a blond color.

MS. ALIZADEH:
14
Blond colored.
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Was it a full beard, like
15
full beard like this guy kind of has, Number 1, or
16
was it more of a partial beard like the guy in the
17
blue shirt?
18
19
20
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
24
Kind of like goatee and
mustache.
A
22
23
It was like a partial beard.
It wasn't a goatee, it was just

MS. ALIZADEH:
I describe it as a goatee,
I don't know, but it was not the full beard.

A
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Yeah, it wasn't full beard.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Did his face look injured.

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No.
I have one more question.
When he exited the vehicle, did you
see his lips moving at all, you know, telling Mike
Brown to do anything?
I wasn't paying attention.

That's when you left okay.
I have one
more question.
When you say at the very beginning
10
you said you heard screaming, did it appear that
11
there were two people screaming or was it just one
12
voice you heard.
13
I heard one voice.
14
15
One voice.
A
16
17
18
MS. WHIRLEY:
the screaming was,
A
19
20
21
No.
Can you demonstrate what the
screaming sounded like?

A
It was like -MS. ALIZADEH:
That's going to actually
require he actually raise his voice,
24
25
You couldn't make out what
could you?
MS. WHIRLEY:
22
23
Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
I don't know.
That's exactly why I asked
the question.
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Page 150
1
2
3
MS. WHIRLEY:
A
kind of scream.
Like what?
Like an AHHHH kind of scream.

MS. WHIRLEY:
It was like an AHHHH,
Like AHHH?
Yes.
In
regards to the scream, did you hear that only one
time or was it like AHHH, AHHH, AHHH.
Once.
10
11
Huh?
A
Once.
12
13
Once,
A
14
just one.
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Anyone else.
15
anything that we didn't ask you,
16
remember about that is important?
17
that you
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
Is there
Okay.
When the police talk
19
to you, did you feel that they were respectful or
20
were they rude?
21
22
Respectful.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Did anybody ever get in
23
your face or tell you that you were lying and stop
24
lying?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
No.

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October 27,2014
Page 151
MS. ALIZADEH:
2
3
interviews, right?
A
Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
And you've had two
Did you talk to anybody in
the apartment complex about what happened?

A
No besides my dad and his girlfriend.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Your dad.
You said you
didn't know, there is a lot of young people I
understand that live in the complex, but you had not
10
11
become friends with any of them?

A
12
13
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
17
20
No.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Or talk to anybody about
what happened?
A
Huh-uh.
MS. WHIRLEY:
18
19
You didn't hang out with
anybody?
15
16
No.
Even when you went back
later to visit with your dad?

A
21
No.
MS. WHIRLEY:
22
Okay.
All right.
23
24
MS. ALIZADEH:
25
Kathi Alizadeh, it is 12:11 p.m.
FAX 314-241-6750
It is October 27th, this is

We just took a

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October 27,2014
Page 152
1
little bit of a break so we could print-out some
transcripts because the grand jurors have asked to
listen to the recorded statement of
that was made to the FBI on September 30th.
have that disc queued, it is about 22 minutes.
were going to try to play that before lunch, we
didn't get to it because we were busy making the
copies.
want lunch.
10
So we
We
You all still want to start that or do you

It is not out there right now.
So go
ahead and start this?
11
The only other thing, and Sheila and I had
12
a discussion about this before now is, she and I are
13
going to kind of wing how we are doing this, after
14
testified and she had come here with
15
who she said was her godson and were
16
in the waiting room here and
17
she did.
testified after
So when we walked
18
out and we were
19
kind of saying goodbye to them and they were getting
20
ready to walk out
21
about how it is too bad there weren't surveillance
22
cameras in the complex.
23
And then
, I made the comment
said that she had video
24
the entire thing on her phone and I said, what
25
portion, what part did you video the whole thing I
FAX 314-241-6750

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October 27,2014
Page 153
1
said the shooting, you have the shooting taped on
your phone.
phone in the toilet.
And she said yes, but I dropped the
MS. WHIRLEY:
Then I asked her, you know,
where is the phone, thinking we might be able to
recover it with forensic examination.
is in the junk yard.
away.
She got so mad she threw it
MS. ALIZADEH:
10
I've never known about.
11
MS. WHIRLEY:
12
MS. ALIZADEH:
13
She said it
This is information that
Neither have I.
And Sheila has never known
about this, and from my observation of her godson
14
, he was, this was news to him as well
15
because he asked her where is the phone and, you
16
know, he seemed to indicate that he had not heard
17
that information before.
18
19
So I thought it was important that you

know that.
20
MS. WHIRLEY:
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
I agree.
Sheila and I kind of
22
unwittingly became witness to that statement.
23
don't think it is appropriate that we testify as
24
witnesses, but what we discussed is that knowing
25
that there was a statement made like that.
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October 27,2014
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If you desire we can bring
back in and question her under oath about whether,
about that and you can ask her whatever questions
you want, but I wanted you to have that information
so that you could make a decision amongst yourselves
about whether you want to have her come back in and
ask her about that.
8
9
10
So you guys can talk about that during

your lunch break and for now we will go ahead and
start the pass out the transcripts.
11
Did she mention was the
12
recorder, was it on when the FBI was there or was it
13
just sitting on her counter?
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
My recollection and this is
15
what you all are going to have to discuss amongst
16
yourselves what she testified to,
17
her if she was wearing the camcorder when the
18
shooting occurred, and she said no.
19
said it was in her house, she said that during the
20
first interview she was in her pajamas when they
21
came.
22
I believe I asked
I think she
She said that.
23
MS. ALIZADEH:
You all are going to have
24
to look at your notes.
25
she said something that maybe I'm wrong about that.
FAX 314-241-6750
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I did ask her if she had the camera on during the
shooting and she said no.
had it on when she was being interviewed by the
officers, I recall something about that, you all are
going to have to talk amongst yourselves about that.
But whether or not she
So no more questions?
MS. ALIZADEH:
I don't know that I can
answer, I don't want to characterize the witness'
testimony or clarify it because that's something,
10
that will be my interpretation and I don't want to
11
have to do that.
12
there was talk about that if it is helpful, we can
13
go back and, of course, we have the testimony on
14
audio, we also will eventually have a transcript of
15
it as well.
16
I will tell you that I think that
If you want to make a note that once those
17
transcripts are available to me, that I can give
18
them to you and you can go back and look and see
19
exactly what she said in regard to that, all right.
20
21
I'm not being rude, I just need to have

you guys decide that.
22
You ready?
23
(Playing of the audio recording of
24
.)
25
FAX 314-241-6750
MS. WHIRLEY:
We are stopping this

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October 27,2014
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recording of
at one minute and 56
seconds and we will resume after lunch.
October the 27th, 2014.
approximately 33 minutes and some seconds, so we
will resume it after lunch, thank you.
This is
The statement is actually
(Lunch recess taken)

MS. WHIRLEY:
2014.
resume the recording of
It is October the 27th,
Approximately 1:17 p.m.
We are going to
We stopped
10
at about 2156.
It looks like 2158, so it inched up
11
a couple seconds.
12
yet.
13
find when they resumed the conversation.
I don't think they're talking
I'm going to start it and then I'm going to
14
(Resume playing of the audio recording of
15
.)
16
(End of the audio recording of
17
18
(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 55
19
marked for identification.)
20
MS. WHIRLEY:
21
approximately 1:35 p.m.
22
the video recording,
23
statement of
24
earlier today.
25
Exhibit Number 55.
FAX 314-241-6750
It is October 27th, 2014 at

I'm getting ready to play
I'm sorry, the audio recorded

You guys heard from her
It is identified as Grand Jury

There's two transcripts that I

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October 27,2014
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passed out because as she testified, she turned off
the recording and then they started recording again.
I did not know exactly how long her statement is, it
is not very long at all.
MS. ALIZADEH:
So with that -The transcript, they're
both dated August 26th, but the one, the first one
is 9:32.
(Playing of recorded interview of
.)
10
MS. ALIZADEH:
This is Kathi Alizadeh, it
11
is about 2:07.
12
conversation this weekend with
13
had talked about her coming in to complete her
14
testimony today.
15
I said if you can be here by 12:30 that would be
16
great, and here it is ten after 2:00, she's not
17
here.
18
And I told you that I had a

We
I asked her to be here by 1:00 and
I did call the number I have for her,
19
got her answering message and I left her a message
20
to call me about trying to reschedule.
21
have any other live witnesses for today.
22
what you all have told me before, told us,
23
transcripts for two statements that were done by a
24
woman whose already testified woman who has already
25
testified,
FAX 314-241-6750

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So I don't
Based upon
I have
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October 27,2014
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There was an interview of her on
August 9th, the day of the incident at 4:00 p.m.
That interview was done by St. Louis County
Detective
seconds.
to you.
would like.
8
9
and lasted two minutes and 23

So I have this transcript I can pass out
You guys can look at that right now if you
And then there's a transcript of an

interview of
that's done on
10
August 16th, 2014 at 11:43, I'm sorry, 11:34 a.m. by
11
Special Agent
12
and Special Agent
, and so this interview was 24 minutes
13
and 26 seconds so I will pass those transcripts out
14
to you.
15
If you guys just want to take the rest, I
16
know we're breaking at 2:30 today.
17
want to take the rest of that time to review those
18
transcripts.
19
those statements, those prior statements, we can
20
play those at another time, or if you have a need to
21
review
22
reviewed her, the transcripts of her prior
23
statements, we can get that testimony, either play
24
it back audio wise or we can get you transcripts of
25
those as well.
FAX 314-241-6750
So if you guys
And then if you have any need to hear
testimony after having
All right.

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October 27,2014
Page 159
So at this time we'll cease the recording
probably.
at this time we'll just call the record quit for you
all to review this until it is time to go, all
right.
We plan on recessing by 2:30 today.
So
(End of Grand Jury Volume XVI.)
8
9
10
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15
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October 27,2014
Page 160
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State of Missouri
4
5
SS.
County of St. Louis

I,
a Licensed Certified Court
Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State
of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and
authorized to administer oaths and to certify to
depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to
10
Notice in the civil cause now pending and
11
undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of
12
Missouri.
13
The said witness, being of sound mind and being
14
by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly
15
cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the
16
whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case
17
aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the
18
foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me
19
reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed
20
into typewriting, and that the foregoing page
21
correctly sets forth the testimony of the
22
aforementioned witness, together with the questions
23
propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and
24
is in all respects a full,
25
complete transcript of the questions propounded to
FAX 314-241-6750
true,
correct and

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October 27,2014
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and the answers given by said witness.
I further certify that the foregoing pages
contain a true and accurate reproduction of the
proceedings.
I further certify that I am not of counselor
attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not
related to nor interested in any of the parties or
their attorneys.
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11
12
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14
15
16
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October 27,2014
Page 162
1
COURT MEMO
2
3
4
6
7
CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND
STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES
10
11
DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury Volume XVI
12
13
10/27/2014
14
Name and address of person or firm having custody of
15
the original transcript:
16
17
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office
18
100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor
19
Clayton, MO 63105
20
21
22
23
24
25
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ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office
100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor
Clayton, MO 63105
Total:
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15
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Page 164
Upon delivery of transcripts, the above
charges had not been paid.
that all charges will be paid in the normal course
of business.
GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY
515 Olive street, Suite 700
st. Louis, Missouri 63101
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES
10
my hand and seal on this
11
Commission expires
It is anticipated
day of
12
13
Notary Public
14
15
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FAX 314-241-6750

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Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson
Grand Jury Volume XVII

Date: October 28, 2014
This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper
515 Olive Street, Suite 300

St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

October 28, 2014
Page 1
STATE OF MISSOURI
VS.
DARREN WILSON
GRAND JURY
October 28, 2014
VOLUME XVII
FAX 314-241-6750

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October 28, 2014
Page 2
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY
STATE OF MISSOURI
STATE OF MISSOURI
5
6
vs.
DARREN WILSON
10
11
12
The following is a hearing before the Grand
13
Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.
14
Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100
15
South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State
16
of Missouri, on the 28th day of October, 2014,
17
before XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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October 28, 2014
Page 3
1
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3
FOR THE STATE:
Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley
Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis
County
100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor
Clayton, MO 63105
(314)
615-2600
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
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October 28, 2014
Page 5
GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XVII
MS. WHIRLEY:
Good morning.
Today is
October 28th, it is approximately 8:39 a.m.
This is
Sheila Whirley present, and also the 12 grand jurors
are here and XXXXXXX, the court reporter, is here.
Kathi Alizadeh is here, but has stepped out
momentarily.
with the statement of
transcripts.
We are going to start out the morning

You have the
It is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49.
10
(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49

marked for identification.)
11
12
MS. WHIRLEY:
I will play approximately 20
13
something minutes.
14
goes 40 something minutes.
15
on her to come that's why we are going to go ahead
16
and do the statements.
17
at 8:30.
18
had not arrived before we came in this morning.
19
we are still waiting on her.
20
will start the morning.
21
introduction if you can pause the recording.
22
We are actually waiting
She was supposed to be here
Kathi is going to check on that and she

So
So that's the way we
XXXXXXX, with that bit of an
(This is the playing of the interview of
23
.)
24
25
She has another statement that
MS. WHIRLEY:
first statement by
FAX 314-241-6750
All right.
That was the

We have another

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October 28, 2014
Page 6
1
statement by
her way.
she's on her way.
approximately 42 minutes.
interview that was conducted on September the 25th
of 2014.
actual recording is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36,
and we will play that as soon as the transcripts are
distributed.
10
11
I understand she is on
There was a mixup with transportation, but

This one is, I think,
And it was an FBI
I'm passing out the transcripts.
The
(Playing of the second interview of

.)
12
MS. WHIRLEY:
That concludes the second
13
interview of
We will take a break,
14
you probably need one and then we'll start with her
15
testimony when we resume.
16
17
18
19
20
21
interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:
22
23
24
25
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q
I'm Sheila Whirley and these are the 12
grand jurors.
FAX 314-241-6750
You met Kathi Alizadeh and XXXXXX, the

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October 28, 2014
Page 7
1
court reporter, sits next to you.

Please introduce yourself to the
2
3
grand jurors and spell your name for us?
Hi.
My name is
Okay.
, last
name
, you know why we're here,
the shooting of Michael Brown.
Brown?
No,
I didn't know him.
Did you know Michael
I seen his cousin,
10
I think that's the one that has the dreads.
11
him a couple times, but I didn't know him.
12
I seen
We're going to ask you to speak up.
13
generally stand back here so you and I can have a
14
conversation loud enough for everybody to hear,
15
okay?
16
Okay.
17
And that microphone is not going to help
18
you be louder, so you are going to have to raise
19
your voice, okay?
20
I understand what you said about
21
Michael and the person that was with him, had you
22
seen Michael Brown before that day?
23
Probably once.
24
Okay.
25
When you saw him, did you talk to
him or anything?
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October 28, 2014
Page 8
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No, we didn't talk or anything.
You lived in Canfield Green Apartments
back on August 9th of 2014; is that correct?
Yes, ma'am.
All right.
There you go.
All right.
So
how long did you live there?
Since Valentine's Day.
So February 14th of that year?
Yes.
10
Of this year.
Show us on the map, you see
11
that map, that's Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25 and
12
there's a laser pointer right near you somewhere.
13
You know how to use it, there's a little button,
14
there you go.
15
should be a red light if you push.
And you push that button down, there
16
To show where I live?
17
I want you to show us where you lived on
18
August 9th, 2014.
I don't see the red light.
19
I'm trying to recognize the map.
20
Get oriented to the map.
21
help you out?
22
23
So does the map
here.
Yeah,
I see it, my apartment is right
(indicating)
24
So it is like
25
Yes.
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Page 9
1
All right.
Now, tell us what you did that
morning, what time did you wake up that Saturday
morning?
That morning I woke up at probably, urn,
like 9:00.
boyfriend, the mother of his kids to bring his child
over that day.
I was supposed to be expecting my
Was your boyfriend there with you?
No, he was at work.
10
Okay.
11
12
So when you, did the girlfriend
bring the child over?

A
She had brought him over later.
13
whole bunch of errands to do,
14
library to return a movie.
15
16
Okay.
I had a
I had to go to the
You went to the library.
What
library did you guy to?
17
18
Did you walk or drive?
19
I caught the bus up there, but I didn't
20
have no cash,
I had to walk back.
21
Was it a pretty long walk?
22
Uh-huh.
23
Okay.
24
25
So what time were you walking back
from the library?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Urn,
I was coming down Canfield probably at

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about 12:20, something like that.
Noon-ish?
Yeah.
And on this map,
can you tell that West
Florissant is over here?
Yes.
And were you walking from West Florissant?
Yes, ma'am.
And tell us where you were walking when
10
you first noticed something going on with Michael
11
Brown?
12
Uh,
I was probably about right here by
13
these trees.
14
Okay.
15
Because I had paused,
16
(indicating)
I saw a police car
sitting over here.
17
You've got to talk a little louder.
18
I'm sorry.
Sitting near the lease office
19
with the lights on, you usually don't see a police
20
car just sitting in Canfield.
21
22
Okay.
Where is leasing office, do you see
that on the map?
23
Right here.
24
Okay.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
(indicating)
That's the leasing office.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Could you point at it again

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October 28, 2014
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because I was just looking down.
I'm sorry.
It is right here.
(indicating)
(By Ms. Alizadeh)
Yes, ma'am.
All right.
Building I?
So you pause in that area and
you said you saw a police car with its lights on?
Yes.
Q
A
Q
A
13
of it.
Q
A
Q
A
19
vehicle was it?
20
21
It was like the big,
kind,
like
I don't know what
suv.
22
Okay.
23
A white.
24
But it was a marked police car?
25
Yes.
FAX 314-241-6750
What color?

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October 28, 2014
Page 12
Q
Okay.
Yes.
Then what?
Urn, so I paused like right about here,
You could see that from Building 1
area?
right by these trees just to see what was going on
because I saw the police car had backed up and he
like backed up at a slant, like to the left so that
he ended up in the middle of the street.
10
So all the cars that was next to me
11
like backed up right here was just sitting there.
12
sat there to just to try to see what is going on.
13
14
Did you see the car when it backed up or
when you first noticed it had backed up?
15
No, when I first noticed it was straight.
16
The car was just straight.
It was sitting right
17
there, the car was facing towards West Florissant.
18
Okay.
19
There was the two boys, they were like
20
behind the car kind of like, like if he would of
21
continued to talk to them the way they was walking,
22
he would of had to back up to follow them.
23
like walking away from his car.
24
a slant going to the left to try to like block them
25
off.
FAX 314-241-6750
They was
So he backed up at

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October 28, 2014
Page 13
1
2
3
Okay.
Can you describe the two boys that
were walking that he backed up?

A
Yeah, there was a big, really big,
didn't know he was that young.
was in his 20s and his friend was real skinny with
dreads.
Do you recall what the big guy had on?
I remember he had on a white T-shirt that
He looked like he
He looked really young.
was about it, like tan pants.
10
Was he wearing anything on his head?
11
He had a red hat on.
12
Okay.
13
A red Cardinals hat.
14
A Cardinals cap?
15
Uh-huh.
16
And then the guy, you said he had dreads
17
and he was smaller?
18
Yes.
19
Do you recall what he was wearing?
20
Looked like he had on a gray,
21
gray shirt.
22
Okay.
23
24
25
like a dark,
don't remember what kind of pants or
anything.
Q
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
And you said you had,

314-241-6750
you had seen
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October 28, 2014
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1
the smaller guy before?
Yeah,
But not the big guy?
No.
We know today that the big guy is Michael
I had seen him before.
Brown, correct?
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
10
So when the car back-back, did it
And that's who you saw?
11
back-back like hurriedly or slow or what fashion did
12
the car back-back?
13
14
A
like.
15
16
It was kind of like a fast,
it was quick
I don't know how to explain it.

Q
Okay.
That's fine.
Did it appear to
touch the two guys that it back toward?
17
It looked like it did.
I'm not saying
18
that it did, but the way they jump back, like they
19
were in shock like.
20
21
back towards jump back?
22
23
24
25
So you saw the two people that the car
Yeah,
Okay.
kind of like what are you doing, you
know.
Now, we read and heard your
recorded statements because you made two statements
FAX 314-241-6750

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October 28, 2014
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both to the FBI and the Department of Justice?
Yes.
Correct?
Yes.
And you mention that your vision was
somewhat impaired?
Yes.
As far as you needing corrective glasses
or lenses?
10
Yes.
11
On that day, did you have what you needed
12
to make your vision very good?
13
No.
14
How would you rate your vision that day?
15
Urn,
Okay.
16
from one to ten,
I would say like
five.
17
So like me.
I could probably read
18
from here to Forsyth without glasses, but up close I
19
cannot see anything, okay.
20
better than up close vision?
So was your long vision
21
Urn,
22
Okay.
24
Yes.
25
Are you pretty confident in what you saw
23
I'm nearsighted,
so I can't see far.
You need glasses to help you to see
far?
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October 28, 2014
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1
that day because how far would you say you were
away?
it, where were you?
5
6
Let's look at that again.
Uh, probably like right there.
(indicating)
Okay.
About right here.
About right here.
Okay.
10
yards,
11
12
really off.
13
17
(indicating)
Anyway to judge that in feet or
I'm not good at that, but if you can tell us?

I'm not certain.
Okay.
I would probably be
We got kind of a visual picture of
the map that you showed us.
15
16
And where were
they when you first noticed them?
14
When you first saw
Am I getting too close?
No.
Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
You felt that you were
pretty secure in what you were looking at?
18
Yes.
19
Even though you need contacts?
20
It is not that bad.
21
22
23
24
25
I can see the big
vehicle and how he pulled back like that.

Q
Okay,
just checking.
How about your
hearing?
A
I couldn't really hear much of anything
they were saying, there was a lot of other stuff
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October 28, 2014
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going on.
You have good hearing?
My hearing is fine.
You don't need assistance to hear well or
anything?
No.
Okay.
So they back-back, the officer
back-back, it looks like they hit them because they
jump a little bit and look perturbed and look like,
10
11
hey, what are you doing, and then what?

A
Well, the big dude, Michael Brown, like he
12
got mad kind of, he just went immediately to the
13
driver's window and they got into it.
14
how it started.
15
window and it looked like they was fighting.
16
17
Okay.
I don't know
I just know he went around to the
Did the little guy seem to be
helping?
18
No.
19
Did you notice him?
20
He was standing there for a while, but
21
22
23
24
25
once they started fighting, he just ran.

Q
Was he next to Michael Brown on the same
side of the car?

A
Yeah, he was on the same side of the car
still at the back of it.
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October 28, 2014
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They're at the driver's side of the car
since they were fighting?
Yes, ma'am.
Did it look like anybody else was in the
5
6
7
car with the officer?

A
No,
I couldn't tell if anyone else was
next to the car.

Q
You never saw anybody else get out or
anything like that?
10
No.
11
Now, describe for us why it looked like
12
they were fighting, what did you see?
13
Urn, it was like his arms.
14
You have to tell us whose arms?
15
I'm sorry, Mike's arms are reaching into
16
the car.
It looked like some type of struggle cause
17
he was like bobbing in and out like they were doing
18
something.
19
was going on, what they were doing, but his actions
20
looked like there was some type of fight.
Like I said,
I couldn't exactly see what
21
Could you see the officer's arms?
22
Not really.
23
the window.
24
Okay.
25
Yeah.
FAX 314-241-6750
His body was kind of blocking
And you could just see Mike's arms?

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So you're standing on this side?
Yes.
And the car is over here?
Yeah, about.
Facing West Florissant?
So it was a little farther,
there.
9
10
like right
So would you have been closer, would your
view have been closer to the passenger side of the

car or the driver's side of the car?
11
The driver's side.
12
Okay.
13
It was facing towards West Florissant and
Because the car was going
14
then he backed like a slant going to the left, like
15
right in the middle of the street almost.
16
why the cars couldn't go through, he was right in
17
the middle of the street.
18
What other cars did you notice?
19
I saw, it was like a black van.
That's
I don't
20
know models of cars, but right beside me there was a
21
black van, as far as behind that going down,
22
sure.
I'm not
23
Okay.
24
Urn, after that I see they were struggling
25
What did you see after that?
in the window for about,
FAX 314-241-6750
it was not that long, a

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October 28, 2014
Page 20
1
couple seconds and then I heard the first gunshot.
And that's like, you know,
attention, people started paying attention after
that.
kind of got everybody's
How do you know that people started paying
attention after that?
Because his friend,
after he ran,
you
know, he just running around looking at stuff.
People outside on their porches,
you know, because
10
you hear gunshot over there, especially when it is
11
like right in the middle of everything, so everybody
12
could hear it.
13
their windows.
You know, people start looking out
14
You notice this yourself?
15
Yes, ma'am.
16
You are kind of looking around at the
17
scene.
18
police officer constantly?
19
20
You weren't just focused directly on the
Yeah, that's another thing that throws off
some of my details, there's so much going on.
21
Okay.
22
Like even the lady in the car that was
23
beside me,
24
looking, everybody just started to pay attention to
25
it.
FAX 314-241-6750
she was just like, you know,

314-241-6750
just
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Page 21
1
Did you talk to anybody while this is
going on?
I was by myself,
Nobody was yelling out anything to you?
Not until the rest of the shots fired,
6
7
8
9
I didn't talk to anybody.
that's when everybody went crazy.

Q
The first shot, was the officer in the car
when that shot occurred?

A
Yes, the officer was still in the car.
10
Michael Brown was still in the window when I heard
11
the first shot.
12
Tell us what happened next?
13
After that, he kind of backed up and just
14
15
16
looked down at himself.

Q
Show us,
if you wouldn't mind
demonstrating?
17
Like, stand up.
18
Like he backed up and was looking at
19
20
himself?
A
Okay.
So I heard the first shot and he
21
was just like, his hands was in the car and after
22
that he backed up like, trying to check hisself
23
making sure he wasn't hurt or anything.
24
25
Could you see if he was injured from your
vantage point?
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October 28, 2014
Page 22
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No.
You couldn't tell one way or the other?
No.
Okay.
Urn, then he kind of stepped back a little
And then what?
bit.
sounded metal.
assume was it was a gun.
10
I did see something fallon the ground, it
So, of course, the first thing I
Okay.
You thought that somebody had a gun
that fell?
A
12
gun.
13
Michael Brown?
14
Yeah.
15
Go ahead.
16
So the officer got out of the car, you
17
know.
Q
19
Uh-huh.
21
22
Brown or anyone else retrieved that object?

A
I didn't see anybody pick it up because at
23
that point was another point when I was looking
24
around.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.

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October 28, 2014
Page 23
1
2
3
When I did look back, that's when the
officer had the gun, he was pointing it at him.

Q
Did you notice if that object that you
thought that fell on the ground was still on the
ground?
It wasn't.
It wasn't there any more?
No.
Okay.
10
Yes, ma'am.
11
Okay.
You did notice that?
So the officer you said at that
12
point when you saw the officer again he was out of
13
the car?
14
Yes.
15
And what was the officer doing?
16
He was like just standing with the gun
17
facing him and then like.
18
Show us how he had the gun, the stance?
19
He was just like, you know, officer, just
20
standing like this.
21
shoot him, like he did something.
22
Okay.
Like he was, you know, going to
Where was he though and maybe I
23
missed something.
24
off, Michael Brown checked himself out, was acting
25
like he was looking at himself.
FAX 314-241-6750
Let's go back to the shot went
Then where did

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October 28, 2014
Page 24
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Michael Brown go?
He backed up a few steps.
At first he
tried to run, at first when -- when he first looked
at hisself he tried to run.
Where was he running to though?
Back towards the back of Canfield, like
back where his friend ran right there.
So east on Canfield?
Yeah, the car was about right here, he ran
10
to about right here.
11
12
(indicating)
How did he get around the car, did he just
go from the back of the car?
13
He was like next to it so he didn't have
14
to, you know, there was too much turning to go down
15
the street.
16
Okay.
Yeah, he made a couple little steps like a
17
18
And you said at first he tried to
run?
19
quick sprint, nothing more than like five to seven
20
steps.
21
And then what?
22
He didn't get that far.
And then he
23
turned around, the officer had the gun pointed at
24
him and then you just heard the rest of the shots.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Let me ask something though.

314-241-6750
Did the
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October 28, 2014
Page 25
1
officer like pursue him when he was running away?
No,
The officer just got out of the car?
Yes,
I didn't see him run after him.
I saw him standing there.
see him get out of the car.
Okay.
You know,
8
9
10
I didn't
certain things I saw and certain
things I didn't see.

Q
But when you caught it again, Michael
Brown had turned around?
11
Yes.
12
Did you see him turn around?
13
Yes.
14
Can you show us how he did that?
15
Just.
16
So like run that way,
17
18
(indicating)
I
mean,
or walk that
way of however he was doing it?

A
Okay.
He just turned around like, you
19
know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just
20
stopped, like looking at him.
21
when I heard the rest of the shots.
22
first two,
23
looked at him,
I didn't see them.
24
Okay.
25
Yes.
FAX 314-241-6750
And then, urn, that's

I heard the
And then when I
I saw him still shooting him.

So you heard two shots?

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October 28, 2014
Page 26
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separate shots and then a pause?
As part of this set of shots or two
No, it was all in a set.
row like that.
It was like in a
(indicating)
Okay.
The first two of them I didn't see.
wasn't looking.
The rest of them I was looking
straight at him and I saw the actual shots going
into him.
Q
11
him?
12
Yes.
13
How could you tell, what was it looking
I mean,
14
15
like?
I can't tell, you know,
I can't
16
really tell.
I'm just saying based on him pointing
17
the gun at him and hearing all the pops and seeing
18
the smoke coming off his gun.
19
You saw the smoke?
20
Yeah,
21
I saw the smoke and you could smell
it like, it was like firecrackers almost.
22
You could smell it from where you were?
23
Yes.
24
Was it a windy day?
25
I don't remember.
FAX 314-241-6750

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October 28, 2014
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Was his arms up the way you showed us when
he was being shot?
Yes, about, like his palms were out facing
forward, they were about at his ears,
shoulders, about like that.
What did that mean to you to have
That meant surrender, that meant take me
to jail.
10
You thought he was surrendering?
11
Yeah.
12
Did you ever see him rush the officer
13
like, you know what I mean by rush?
14
Yeah, like he was mad.
15
Was he running toward the officer or
16
charge him?
17
I didn't see that.
18
Okay.
19
like
your arms like that?
Okay.
I'd say,
Did you ever hear anybody ever say
anything?
20
As soon as the shots got fired,
21
said, I was up here by these trees,
22
mailbox.
23
of the shots got fired.
24
him was running around, he was running.
25
here,
I was behind a
I was standing right there after the rest
I guess.
FAX 314-241-6750
like I
His friend that was with

He was like
I don't know what he was doing.

314-241-6750
He
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October 28, 2014
Page 28
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was standing with some dudes, he started running
around the complex, they shot him, they shot my home
boy, he didn't even deserve that.
It was the police that killed him, it
was the police that killed him.
That is what got
the big crowd out there real fast.

Q
was fired.
9
It sounded about like six.
Q
A
13
Yes.
15
He fell face forward.
There wasn't no
16
pause on his knees or nothing, it was just straight
17
down.
18
(indicating)
You didn't see him go down on his knees
19
and then fall,
20
facedown?
it was just from standing to
21
Yeah.
22
Okay.
23
The officer walked up to his body and was
And then what did the officer do?
24
standing over him like he was going to get back up.
25
He was just looking at him like,
FAX 314-241-6750
just looking down

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October 28, 2014
Page 29
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at him like,
I don't know.
Did the officer still have his weapon in
his hand?
He still had his weapon in his hand.
Did you notice what he was doing with the
weapon or if he was doing anything?
No,
I just know he still had the gun right
at his side in his hand.
at him,
He was just looking down
just like walking around him, you know,
10
like walking a circle around him like.
11
know,
12
13
I don't
it was just strange.

Q
So he didn't holster the weapon at that
point after Michael Brown was down?
14
No.
15
Okay.
16
on the map?
17
Show me where you saw the body fall
It was probably like right here.
18
right there, went a couple steps and fell.
19
(indicating)
20
21
22
just
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
Like
Can you do that again?
About right here is where his body was.
(indicating)
23
24
By this time I was over here.
25
Okay.
FAX 314-241-6750
(By Ms. Whirley) Where were you again?
What did you do after the body

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October 28, 2014
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fell?
I ran in the house.
Which way did you go home?
Back this way.
Okay.
And again,
you live in building?
So you went back this way?
(indicating)
Yes.
10
Okay.
Did you see, at the time of the
11
shooting, were there any other police vehicles
12
there?
13
No, when he first got shot he was laying
14
there I seen another police car pull up probably
15
about ten minutes later.
16
the police car pulled up.
17
cars out there, they eventually,
18
the cop that shot him to go home because he wasn't
19
out there after a couple of minutes.
20
21
It wasn't that long after

So there was two police
I guess they told
Did that car that showed up, did it have
its head bar lights on too?
22
Yes.
23
Did you talk to any police officers or any
24
25
investigators that day?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
No.

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How did you come to talk to the
investigators?
Honestly?
Honestly.
I was at home enjoying myself watching a
movie and there's a knock on the door, and two big
guys with FBI things on.
the door,
the door.
I told my boyfriend to get
I don't want to talk to anybody, go get
10
So he answered the doors and says, I
11
was at work on that day, but my girlfriend was here
12
and saw the whole thing so.
13
inside?
14
was just say no.
15
FBI agent.
16
17
Oh, really, can we come
I couldn't say no, the first thing he said

So figure you can't say no to an
So, yeah, that's how it went.

Okay.
So had you told your boyfriend
about what happened that day?
18
Yeah,
I told him because his son was
19
coming over.
When she finally did get there, she
20
said, did you know somebody got shot?
21
yeah,
I was like,
I was just out there.
22
Did you tell her what happened too?
23
No,
24
Okay.
25
He's one.
FAX 314-241-6750
I don't like her.
We don't talk.
How old is the little boy?

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2
Okay.
All right.
But you did share with
your boyfriend?
Yeah.
All right.
Because I never,
get killed.
but I've never seen nothing like that, nobody's life
get taken.
I've never seen anybody
I've seen police brutality firsthand,
Did you think this was police brutality?
10
Honestly, to me it looked like murder.
11
I've seen the Ferguson police do some really awful
12
things.
13
them for them coming into my house and basically
14
beating me up.
I've personally myself filed cases against
15
Okay.
Tell us about that?
16
Okay.
So my boyfriend had got into it
17
with his son's mom.
18
Yeah, baby momma.
19
Yeah.
20
Go ahead, we know about it.
21
He got into it with her.
The two of them
22
were fighting and arguing.
23
She got off the bus with me so, you know, me and
24
her, why are you getting off the bus and going to my
25
house.
FAX 314-241-6750
I had just got off work.
It is my son's birthday, you know,

314-241-6750
I'm just
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October 28, 2014
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1
trying to get stuff for him, don't worry about it.
So she walked in the house, they get into it.
didn't tell you could come over here.
So basically they started fighting,
he called the police on her.
When the police
arrived, which was not that, it was like two minutes
later, like they was literally parked down the
street.
doorway.
When they arrived he was standing in the
10
They walked straight up to him, they
11
didn't ask questions, they grabbed him, put him in
12
cuffs, told him to get on his knees.
13
going to get on my knees when you're twisting my arm
14
up in the air.
15
Like how am I
They pushing his face all up on the
16
wall.
Me and her are in there crying, he didn't do
17
nothing, he's the one that called you.
18
him outside.
19
They dragged
She was getting ready to leave.
20
her son, he wasn't even one at this time.
21
where was he.
22
stroller, still on the porch.
23
outside, snow on the ground.
24
25
So
He was,
He was sitting on the porch in his

It was freezing
So they close the front door, left

him out there on the porch after they dragged
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down the steps.
So they had me and her, and they sat
her on the couch.
it is a walk-around bar in the kitchen.
around the bar in the kitchen,
y'all doing in my house, why you doing my boyfriend
like that.
10
So I come
I'm like, what are
He's the one that called y'all.

Like don't you understand, we had
I come out of the kitchen because
nothing to do with this, we are trying to remove her

because we live here.
11
He was like the B word, don't say
12
nothing to me, this has nothing to do with you, this
13
is a police matter now.
14
They called you the B word?
15
Yes.
The Canfield security officer, he
16
came in, come on man, these are kids.
Don't do them
17
like that.
18
matter, we're taking over this investigation and
19
stuff like that.
20
kids.
21
here.
You shut up because this is a police
What investigation.
These are
They called you for this girl that don't live
22
So I'm like yelling at him, yes,
23
did get mad.
24
my name is on the lease.
25
do with this.
FAX 314-241-6750
I started yelling at him.
I'm like,
I didn't have nothing to
Why y'all in my house, you tearing it

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up and all of this.
Okay.
You don't know how to reason,
somebody come put her in cuffs.
This big huge
officer came and put the cuffs on me.
allover my back and he got cuffs like this, and
there was cuts all around my wrist.
on my body and then they let her go.
momma go.
He kicked me
I had bruises
They let the
She started crying my baby's in the snow.
She took the baby?
10
She took the baby and walked down the
11
street.
They put my boyfriend in the cop car.
12
I'm in handcuffs walking around the house, so I walk
13
outside.
14
Don't you love how they just like to wander around
15
like the walking dead.
Where's she going.
16
So
Oh, there she is.
I'm out there like, where's my
17
boyfriend, looking in the police car and stuff.
18
they come out there, he put me in the car and I'm
19
like, what am I going to jail for.
20
We search your name, you probably
21
have a traffic ticket.
22
no car.
23
down there.
24
25
So
I don't even drive,
I have
Well, we're going to find out when we get
I get down there, they say I have a

Metro ticket for the MetroLink.
FAX 314-241-6750
They kept me in

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Page 36
there,
my store at 9:00 in the morning.
there until 2:00 p.m.
like 3:00 in the morning.
I was a manager at this time.
I had to open
They kept me in
They let my boyfriend out at

Well, he called them.
Now, was this officer, you know the
officer who is involved in this case, Darren Wilson,
correct?
Yes.
Was he involved in any of this that
10
happened with you?
11
No,
12
It was another one?
13
Big guy with a mustache.
14
Had you ever had any type of altercation
15
it was another dude.
with Darren Wilson as a police officer?
16
No.
17
How long ago did this happen to you?
18
Urn, that was probably like March and we
19
had been trying to get some type of justice up until
20
basically this.
21
had everything on tape,
22
he had taped that he sent to the landlord.
23
like,
24
this to court or sue Ferguson, he's telling her all
25
of this.
The security officer at Canfield

like he recorded everything
you need to do something.
FAX 314-241-6750
He was
You need to take

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1
2
you tape any of this --
6
7
8
9
So, in your opinion, you mention tape, did
No.
shooting?
At that time I didn't have a phone that
could record.
Do you know anybody who has a tape of the
actual shooting?
I saw a girl standing out there.
It was
10
about that time when he was out of the car, she was
11
recording.
12
but one of the officers took her phone.
She could have got most of the shooting,
13
How do you know that?
14
I was standing there in the crowd at that
15
point.
16
his body was still laying out there.
This was like 20 minutes after the shooting,
17
You saw an officer take her phone?
18
Yeah, this was after I ran in house.
19
put my bags down from the library,
20
basically out there walking and, you know, mingling
21
around with all the people outside.
22
before I even went in the house,
23
like, she was standing like right here.
24
(indicating)
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I was just
I saw her
she was standing
Okay.

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Her house is right here.
She was standing
on her porch like over there.
Do you know her name?
I don't know her.
Okay.
That was my first time seeing a lot of
these people.
But I saw her, she was like,
I got
the whole thing, she's standing there like, yeah,
got you on camera too.
He came over and took her
10
phone.
11
Was it a Ferguson office?
12
It was a Ferguson officer.
13
You know the difference between Ferguson
14
and County?
15
And the County, yeah, it was Ferguson.
16
It was an Ferguson officer?
17
Yeah.
18
Okay.
One second.
So based on your
19
knowledge of what's going on in the community, how
20
would you describe the relationship between the
21
police and the residence there in Canfield Green.
22
From every instance I've been involved
23
with the police,
24
any record.
25
or brutalized.
FAX 314-241-6750
I'm not a criminal.
I don't have
I don't have any reason to be arrested

A lot of people that I know over

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there is the same way.
What I see when the police come, it
is like instant panic from people.
who called them, why would you call them over here.
We don't need them to solve this problem, you just
brought more trouble into the area and stuff like
that.
8
9
And I just see like,

my daddy get beat by the police,
You know, like
I mean,
I seen
I've seen friends
10
of mine will be out, you know, shopping and someone
11
told them we stole something and just get followed
12
by the police cars.
13
think he deserves to get killed like that.
14
just kind of proves my whole image of what I thought
15
of the police.
I never seen, you know,
16
Which is what?
17
They abuse their authority to me.
18
Now, in one of your statements you
I don't
And that
19
describe Michael Brown as looking scared when he
20
turned around.
Do you recall that?
21
Yes.
22
Explain to us what you mean by that.
23
couldn't actually see his face,
could you?
24
No,
25
What did you mean he looked scared?
FAX 314-241-6750
You
I couldn't see his face.

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1
2
3
4
5
I mean, you know, when you see a really
big dude just kind of cowering.

Q
Like stand up for us, demonstrate
cowering.
A
Okay.
If you stop and you are looking at
someone and you're, you know,
I'm all right, you know.
know how to explain, but when I see a big dude like
that kind of looking like he's afraid,
10
it is cool, you know,
And, you know,
I don't
like he's
like trembling like a child kind of.
11
Do it look like he was trembling?
12
Yeah
13
From that distance?
14
Yeah, you know, the way his hands was,
15
they was moving or something.
16
scared to me, he looked scared.
17
He was just like
It did not look to you that he was trying
18
to come at the officer when he was cowering or
19
moving his hands?
20
No.
21
When Michael Brown fell to the ground, did
22
the officer stop shooting?
23
Yes,
24
You didn't hear any more shots.
25
I didn't hear any more mots.

Did you
hear any shots when Michael Brown, after that first
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shot and Michael Brown fled from the car before he
turned around, did you hear any shots?
Like when he was running?
Yes.
I don't remember.
Okay.
I don't know if I've asked you this
already, but when you said there was one shot was in
the police car, did it appear that Michael Brown was
shot?
10
11
You said he looked at himself, but you
couldn't tell if he was shot or not?

A
I couldn't tell if he was shot.
He just
12
looked at hisself, like he was checking to see, like
13
he didn't know hisself.
14
15
16
MS. WHIRLEY:
right now.
17
18
Okay.
Kathi?
MS. ALIZADEH:
I don't have anything else
Yeah.
(By Ms. Alizadeh)
So I'm going to ask you
19
a few more questions just to clarify a few things
20
and you're killing the court reporter because you
21
talk so fast.
22
I'm sorry,
I work at a call center.
23
I know you were getting excited.
24
really sorry that you had those experiences.
25
think that Officer Wilson, do you hold him
FAX 314-241-6750

314-241-6750
And I'm
Do you
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accountable for the bad behavior that you've
experienced or witnessed or that you are aware of
other Ferguson officers?
No,
I don't hold him accountable really.
I think, you know, like I say with authorities,
think he just got beside himself.
it turned into, you know,
you do this, you listen to me, you have an attitude.
And then it turned into him just being frustrated,
10
11
Like, you know,
I'm going to tell you kids
that's what it seemed like.

Q
Okay.
What I want to make sure,
12
and because this grand jury is going to consider
13
whether or not to indict the police officer for a
14
crime.
15
so that they can decide that, and I know that you
16
having had unpleasant or, you know, very bad
17
experiences with police officers, you know, it gives
18
you a bad impression of police officers I imagine.
19
And they're examining what happened that day
But, you know, they need just to
20
relate what you saw today.
They can only consider,
21
not that they can't consider other things, do you
22
know what I'm saying?
23
What I saw, not what I heard.
24
Right.
25
And I want to make sure that we're
not bringing all bad police officers behavior into
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this picture.
Right.
And you saw what you saw that day and you
have an opinion about what you saw that day and
that's fine and that's what we're interested in,
okay?
Yes.
So when you said you were walking back
from the library and you first saw the two boys and
10
I just wanted to clarify, you said that maybe you
11
had seen him once before, were you talking about the
12
littler guy or Michael Brown?
13
The littler one.
14
The littler one?
15
Yes.
16
In what setting have you seen him before?
17
One of the little community stores up the
18
19
20
21
street.
Q
Okay.
So you recognized him as having
seen him up at one of the convenience stores?

A
Seeing him up close.
22
pictures of his face up close,
23
his structure.
24
25
Actually seeing
I recognized that was
So from where you were standing initially,
which was somewhere around here; is that right?
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(indicating)
4
5
(Nods head.)
And the boys were initially down about
here or where were the boys when you first saw them?
A
They were about right here.
right there.
I was like
(indicating)
And you were about right here?
(indicating)
Yes.
10
So from that distance you could see enough
11
of the smaller boy's facial features to realize that
12
you recognized him?
13
Yes.
14
And so now, we know, did you say this
15
Building 1 is the leasing office,
correct?
16
Yes.
17
And you said that you first saw the
18
officer's car by the leasing office and I want to
19
make sure we're clarifying here, was his car always
20
on Canfield Drive when you saw it or was there ever
21
a time when his car was up here on Coppercreek Road?
22
No, it was always on Canfield.
23
Okay.
24
The closer it got to pulling in somewhere
25
was when I first approached him all the way back
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1
2
3
4
here, it was somewhere around here.

Q
(indicating)
Did you see him turn into one of those
drives or streets at all?

A
He was on this main street, he was about
probably like in one of these parking lots.
time I got right here, he was already up the street.
8
9
By the
Did you see him come from a parking lot
onto Canfield?
A
No.
When I first was like all the way
10
down, the first side street, I saw him somewhere in
11
like one of the entrances to the parking lots.
12
13
14
15
16
When you were walking from this direction,
did you see any people outside?

A
No,
I don't remember.
I wasn't paying
that close attention.

Q
Okay.
So just to clarify then, you're
17
saying that there could have been, but you weren't
18
paying attention?
19
Yeah.
20
It is not that you say, no, there wasn't
21
anybody else?
22
Right.
23
All right.
24
25
But you said that you saw a
black van?
A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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Was this a minivan type of van or the
bigger like?
Soccer mom van.
Okay.
Uh, she might have been a soccer mom.
Was a woman in the car?
Yes.
Was she an African-American?
Yes.
10
And can you give me an idea about how old
11
Was there a soccer mom in the car?
she was?
12
13
maybe.
14
Was there anybody else with her?
15
I couldn't tell if there was anyone in the
16
17
Probably, urn,
36,
40, between 36 and 42
back, but not in the front passenger seat.

Q
Okay.
And the other cars that you said
18
were lining up, you really didn't get a good
19
description of them?
20
No.
21
You can't remember anything about those
22
other cars?
23
No.
24
And when you first saw the police
25
officer's car, was the police officer's car moving
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when you first saw it?
No.
It was stopped?
Yes.
And so you had described that the
officer's car backed up quickly?
Yes.
Is that the first time that you saw the
9
10
officer's car move or did it go forward and then

back up from what you saw?
11
12
first.
13
Uh, no,
it just backed up,
it went forward
So the first time you saw the officer's
14
car, it was standing still and were the boys walking
15
away from the car at that point?
16
Yes, they was walking.
17
Okay.
18
And then you saw the officer's car
back up quickly?
19
Yes.
20
Did the tires make noise or did you hear
21
any screeching or any noise from the car?
22
Yes.
23
And at this time could you see inside the
24
25
police car to see who was driving the car?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
At that point when he backed up I did see

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him like, you know, with his arm out the car saying
something to him like,
something to him.
doing something like that.
I don't know,
saying
I just saw hand gesture like
So you could see that there was a driver
in the police car?
Yes.
Could you tell it was a man?
Yes.
10
Could you tell whether he was
11
African-American or white at that point?
12
Yes.
13
Okay.
14
How about anybody else in the
police car, could you see if there was anyone else?
15
No,
17
But you could tell there was a policeman
18
in the car?
19
Yes.
20
What about, now,
16
21
I couldn't see if there was anyone
else.
you said you saw the red
and blue lights on the top of his car on?
22
Uh-huh.
23
Were those always on from the first time
24
25
you saw the car or did he turn them on?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
From the first time I
saw him all the way

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down the street the lights was on.
2
3
The lights were always on from the first
time you saw the car?
Yes.
Did you ever see the lights get turned
I don't remember that.
Now, you described when you saw Michael
off?
Brown come to the window of the car.
10
window of the car kind of quickly,
11
it looked like he was angry?
He went to the
in your opinion
12
Yes.
13
And then you described his hands and
14
shoulders and arms inside the vehicle.
15
you said he was bobbing in and out?
16
And today
Yeah, it was like, you could see the back
17
of his body, like his shoulders were just like
18
moving,
19
like they were doing something in the car.
Okay.
Did he ever leave his feet?
In
20
other words, did he ever get like to the point where
21
he, you know,
22
anything?
jumped halfway into the car or
23
I wouldn't remember.
24
Okay.
25
And you said that the struggle
lasted a few seconds; is that right?
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Yes.
I think in one of your previous statements
I think you said about 15 seconds, but does that
seem about right?
Yeah, around that time.
All right.
And then another thing I
wanted to clarify is that while this whole thing is
going on, you're moving.
still and then you move?
At some point you stand
10
Yes.
11
Can you narrate for me,
I'm not telling
12
you this is what I want you to say,
I'm just giving
13
you an example.
14
and right here is where I see, I see the police car,
15
so I stop right here.
16
running,
17
the laser pointer.
If you say I'm walking down here
And then after the guy starts
I walk over here.
So can you kind of move
18
Yeah.
19
And give us an idea of how you were moving
20
21
and what was going on while you were moving?

A
Okay.
So like you said, I did come down
22
this street.
I didn't actually stop until I got
23
like to the last tree.
24
Okay.
25
That's when I was pretty close enough to
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see what was going on.
Were you on the sidewalk or the street?
Yeah,
I was on this sidewalk right here.
(indicating)
That's on the south side of Canfield?
Yes, ma'am.
Okay.
I saw the police car sitting about here.
9
10
(indicating)
Q
Okay.
Keep the laser pointer where you
11
are while you are narrating, okay.
12
you are when you first see things.
13
Okay.
So I know where
I was about right here when I first
14
stop to get a look, when they were at the car.
15
first shot I was right here.
16
of the car,
17
I was standing about right here in the grass with
18
some people over here.
19
listening to them.
20
the shots.
21
then after that,
22
(indicating)
23
24
25
The
I seen once he got out
kind of started moving towards this way.
I'm standing right here just
That's when I heard the rest of
So I hid behind the mailbox kind of and

I just go down here and go home.
Where were you when you saw his body fall,
were you behind the mailboxes yet?

A
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Probably about right here in the grass in

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this area.
Q
(indicating)
When you said you went behind the
mailboxes,
like, did you go behind there for shelter, like to
get out of the way?
7
8
I don't know what the mailboxes look
Yeah,
I hear all of those shots, you know,
I went over there.

Q
Okay.
And so are those mailboxes, what
are they like, are they metal?
10
Yes, ma'am, they're metal.
11
How tall are they?
12
From the ground, they're about this tall.
13
(indicating)
14
15
16
17
I'm a little over 5 foot and I've got
heels on, so let's say today I'm 5'4".

A
On the ground there about this tall,
reach up and touch the top.
18
So that's maybe about 5 foot high?
19
Yes.
20
And is it a solid box with little
21
22
23
24
25
I can
mailboxes in it?
A
Yes, a solid long box with just a whole
bunch of little doors.

Q
If you are standing behind the mailboxes,
does the mailboxes block your view of where Michael
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Brown's body fell?
No,
Yes, okay.
I'm standing completely behind them.
But you saw Michael Brown's
body fall?
Yes.
You weren't behind the mailboxes?
Not completely behind it, you know,
just
kind of look around it kind of, like right here.
Okay.
10
No cars right there, there is no cars, you
11
can see all the way down to right almost right here
12
on the street.
13
This white rectangle here that I'm
14
pointing at in front of this row of cars, these are
15
mailboxes?
16
Yes.
17
Okay.
And so were you on the west side of
18
the mailboxes when you finally got behind the
19
mailboxes?
20
Oh yeah, back here.
21
Okay.
22
(indicating)
Can you people see what I'm
pointing at right here, the mailboxes?
23
But you were able to see everything
24
until about,
25
the ground?
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Yeah.
And then you also describe that you saw
the officer walk up to the body and kind of walk
around it with his gun at his side?
Yeah.
So were you behind the mailboxes at that
point peeking around or were you still out in the
open?
I was still at this point just looking
10
around until everything was over and people started
11
coming outside and I went in the house.
12
Okay.
And now you said today that when
13
Michael Brown turned around and he put his hand up
14
and you demonstrate that, that he looked like he was
15
scared; is that right?
16
Yes.
17
When you saw that, were you over in this
18
area when he turned around?
19
Yes.
20
Okay.
21
And you described him being where
when you saw him turn around?
22
Urn, about right here.
23
Okay.
(indicating)
So just so I can help with trying
24
to understand things and with trying to get you to
25
understand things, are there, when he turns around
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and he gets shot, does he ever move backwards or
forwards after he turns around?
I don't remember that specific.
Do you remember telling the investigators
5
6
7
that you saw him taking steps backwards?

A
Yes, after he ran, he moved a couple steps
with his hands up.
Yes?
Yes.
10
He runs a few steps and he turns around
11
and he puts his hands up like next to his ears?
12
13
steps.
14
Backwards?
15
Yes.
16
So what's the furthest point backwards
17
18
Yeah, and takes like some short half
that he walks?
A
He doesn't take too many backward steps.
19
The most move he made was running about here.
20
didn't get much farther than this area.
21
Okay.
He
(indicating)
Now, eventually when he was shot
22
and hit the ground and his body laid there for quite
23
some time, is that where the memorial is now on the
24
street?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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October 28, 2014
Page 56
1
2
And so can you point on the map where the
memorial is?
There's one right here by the Ferguson
apartment complex, one right here and one at the end
of my street and there's one on the street right
here where Canfield ends.
Where the word Canfield is?
Yes, memorial right there.
Okay.
So where the body laid and where
10
the memorial is, that's the farthest east that you
11
saw him get?
12
Yes.
13
Okay.
14
They kind of built the memorial on top of
15
the blood stain that was there.
16
was.
17
So that's where he
So you never saw him from the farthest
18
point that he was east, you never saw him move
19
toward the officer?
20
21
22
23
I didn't see him move toward the officer.
He could have, but I didn't see him do it.

Q
So this would have been when you were kind
of over by the mailboxes?
24
Yes.
25
And would you have been like peeking out
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or whatever?
Yes.
And you also said today and in previous
statements that, you know, you were kind of at that
point noticing that people were kind of coming out
and milling about?
Yes.
So you were taking your eyes off of what
was going on a little bit?
10
Yes.
11
Now, you said that you saw a woman come
12
out and say that she had videoed this on her phone?
13
Yes.
14
Where did you see her when she came out?
15
When I first saw her she was standing
16
right here in front of her apartment complex.
After
17
I had went in the house and came back out, she was
18
over here with a big group of people over by the
19
apartment right here.
20
Okay.
21
That's where I thought he took her to take
22
her phone, she was standing like right here, still
23
in front of her building.
24
Okay.
(indicating)
So you think she lives in
25
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Yes.
Do you know that?
I don't know that.
Why do you think she's lives in that
5
6
building?
A
She was standing on the balcony of,
the man that lives there,
the balcony with them.
I know
I know she was standing on
You don't know her name?
10
No.
11
What about the man that lives there, do
12
you know his name?
13
No.
14
If somebody,
15
16
17
could you point to what
balcony it was?
A
Yeah,
I can point to what balcony it was.
If I saw him on the street,
I would know him.
18
Okay so was the gal an African-American?
19
Yes.
20
About how old?
21
Probably her 20s.
22
Have you seen, after this happened, have
23
you seen people on the news who came forward who
24
said they saw it and describing what they saw?
25
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Did you ever see that girl, the one who
the officer took her phone, did you ever see her on
the news?
5
6
No,
I was expecting to see that video, but
I didn't.
Q
Okay.
Now you describe when you said
Michael Brown turned around and you said it looked
like he was scared and today you used the word
cowering.
10
In previous statements you said it was
like he was crouched over.
11
Yes.
12
On your recording from previous statements
13
we can't see what that means because it's an audio
14
recording.
15
was in between you and I so I didn't have a good
16
look at it.
17
you meant when he was crouched over or cowering.
18
19
20
21
22
like this.
Q
But you demonstrated today, and XXXXXX
Can you describe or demonstrate what
Okay.
It was like his hands were about
(indicating)
Can you stand up?
He was standing up at
this point, right?

A
Yes.
His shoulders were like almost
23
touching his hands, urn.
24
stance for self-defense to me.
25
crouched over.
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No, that's kind of like the

So that's how I said

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And so before when you were talking to the
u.s.
FBI agents and the assistant
the guy with black hair that you talked to, the
attorney?
Yes.
Okay.
attorney, remember
And you said to him that Michael
Brown was kind of crouching over and it sounded to
me like maybe you were trying to demonstrate it and
you said, so kind of bent over?
10
Yes.
11
When you demonstrated it to them, was your
12
13
14
15
16
body bent over in any way?

A
Yes, neck kind of bent forward,
shoulders
going inward.
Q
Okay.
How about at the waist.
Would the
body be upright or is the body bent over?
17
No, the body is upright.
18
Body is upright?
19
Like from the forearm up is kind of what I
20
meant.
21
Kind of like shoulder slumped?
22
Yes,
23
Okay.
like, you know.

Okay.
And just to be clear, from
24
the time after you heard one gunshot while Michael
25
Brown was at the vehicle.
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Yes.
And then you see him run.
Does the
officer fire at Michael Brown while he's running
away?
That I don't remember.
I wasn't paying
attention at that point.
Okay.
It is from the time that the officer got
out of the car from the gun, or whatever it was on
10
the ground being picked up or whatever, that part
11
I'm not sure.
12
Okay.
And just to be clear, you said from
13
the gun being picked up off the ground, but you
14
don't know for sure what was on the ground; is that
15
right?
16
Right.
17
It was black?
18
Yes, it was black.
It made like kind of a
19
plastic metal clink when it hit the ground.
That's
20
all I know as far as the shape and what I know
21
exactly.
22
23
and yellow?
24
I didn't see any yellow.
25
It looked like it was all black and about
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the size that a handgun would be?
Yes.
You didn't see who picked it up, you just
know that later it was gone?
Yes.
Okay.
Did you see, as the boys were first
walking toward the car, after the officer backed up
and the boys approached the car, did you see
anything in Michael Brown's hands?
10
No.
11
Did you ever see Michael Brown hand
12
anything to the little guy?
13
No,
I wasn't paying attention.
14
Okay.
So just cause you were kind of
15
talking softly, you said, no, you weren't paying
16
that close of attention?
17
Yes.
18
Okay.
And so after the first gunshot and
19
Michael Brown backs away,
kind of checks himself out
20
looks like and then he starts to run away, you say
21
he gets a few steps before he turns around, did you
22
hear any shots before he turns around?
23
I don't remember.
24
Okay.
25
And then after he turns around and
puts his hands up, and you said in your statement
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and today,
backwards?
you said he took a few steps, half steps
Yeah,
Okay.
And then did it appear to you that
he had been shot at that point, could you see?
just like a little shuffle.
I couldn't tell, that was too far for
Okay.
that.
And then you heard several shots in
a row after that?
10
Yes.
11
And then after those several shots in a
12
13
14
15
row, was there another series of shots?

A
Urn, after, while his body was out there,
but it wasn't.
Q
I know there's been people who said there
16
were gunshots going off in the complex, but I'm
17
talking about from the officer?
18
No.
19
Okay.
So the one in the car or at the
20
car, and then several shots after Michael Brown had
21
turned around and that's all the gunshots you heard?
22
Yes.
23
MS. ALIZADEH:
24
MS. WHIRLEY:
I don't have anything else.

Questions?
25
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I'm

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trying to get some idea on this distance here.
we can probably put it in terms of car lengths, like
a four-door vehicle, can you picture that in your
mind?
If
Yes.
Okay.
Now, when you
started off, when you saw the officer's car, can you
give me an idea how many cars, 4-door cars can fit
between where the police officer's car is and where
10
11
12
you are when you first see him?

A
Okay.
It will be about probably four or
five car lengths.
13
14
15
Okay.
Four to five car
lengths, okay.
A
Yes.
16
Okay.
And then when you
17
got to, were you still at that point when you heard
18
the first shot go off?
19
20
Yes, ma'am.
When I heard the first shot,
I was still by the tree.
21
Okay.
Then when you're at
22
the bank of the mailboxes, okay, are you still,
23
okay, where are they then?
24
25
right here.
FAX 314-241-6750
They're still in the same place about

They're still in the same area.
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(indicating)
Okay.
And so from there
to where they are, about how many car lengths would
that be you think?
From where I was to the police car?
where I was here to the police car?
Yeah.
From
was closer, I was probably about two or
three car lengths.
10
Two to three car lengths.
11
And then at that point you're there about two or
12
three car lengths, at that point that's when you see
13
Michael Brown, you see the other bank of shots or
14
the other shots go off?
15
Yes.
16
17
Okay.
I
think that's all
have.
Okay.
18
19
August the 16th, your interview when you told the
20
authorities that you were walking home from the
21
library, you first said that you saw the police
22
officer back-back, you know, not hard but --
23
Quick.
24
25
On
Quick stop and almost

hitting the boys?
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Yes.
I call them young men.
You said that, okay, what I need to understand,
cause you are on the same side as them, right?
I'm on the opposite side of the street.
At the time when you saw
the police?
Yes, during everything I was on the
opposite side of the street from the police car.
10
Opposite side would be
11
This side of the street.
The car was on
12
this side of the street, parked about right here at
13
first.
(indicating)
14
Okay.
Let me rephrase the
15
question, you are so right.
16
side as you are facing to the back of everything
17
that's going on.
18
Yeah, well,
You are facing the same
I'm facing towards the front
19
of the police car, but I'm facing the back of the
20
police officer, but while he was getting shot,
21
still facing toward Michael Brown.
22
Right.
I was
My point is, when
23
you saw the action going on at the car and the
24
vehicle,
25
it look to you when he came back at that quick stop,
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I call it MB and PO, police officer.

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Did
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even though they may have almost gotten hit, you
know, and they jump back, how soon would you say
that the action between MB and the PO took place?
How soon did he walk up to the car window?
Cause when you say walk up
to the car,
it's like it's right here,
instant, it is right directly in front of me?
I'm thinking somebody almost got hit,
Yes.
10
11
It would be like boom,

boom, you know.
12
Uh-huh.
13
14
I mean, it is like
Just a jerk more than not

jump far back.
15
Right.
16
But when you say walk up
17
to the police car, did he have to like walk some
18
feet?
19
No,
just walk from the back of the car to
20
the driver's window.
21
just like, you know, probably like three steps.
22
was already there by the car.
23
the bumper to the driver's window.
24
25
It wasn't like a walk, it was

He
He just walked from
How soon did the

conversation that you did not hear take place?
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How soon after he backed up the car?

Yeah.
Urn, like less than five seconds.
It was
like instant after that happened, he just charged
right up to the window, he just went right over.
6
7
8
9
So, and you said that you

saw his body waist up in the car?
About his arms, shoulders right here like,
you know, somebody reaching, he's reaching in there.
10
Like they're in there fighting, he's reaching for
11
something but he's doing something in the car.
12
13
14
15
His head and chest was

inside the vehicle too?
A
His head was in the vehicle at one point
reaching in.
16
On August the 16th you
17
never mention that his body was inside the vehicle,
18
but on September 25th you mention that his body was
19
inside.
20
looked like they were fighting.
21
You just said that it was his arm, it
So I'm just confused because like that's a
22
big gap, that's almost like a month after you had
23
your first interview.
24
television or hear anyone in the neighborhood
25
talking about, you know, what they actually saw?
FAX 314-241-6750
Did you like hear anything on

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No, it was just what I remember.
It might
be off, but it was like a grapple, you know, head
bobbing and shoulders moving, arms moving.

Okay.
Thank you.
Continuing on
that same thought.
nearly hits Michael Brown and Dorian.
Michael Brown makes his way almost immediately, five
seconds or so, to the driver's side of the car.
10
You know the car backs up,

You said
Can you tell from your perspectives were
11
there words exchanged first,
12
immediate action with the arms?
13
or was there kind of
I couldn't tell.
14
Okay.
Thank you.
15
When you
16
moved from the tree to the mailbox, were you walking
17
or running at that time?
18
19
It was a mix,
say.
20
21
22
That's a pretty good

distance, that's 50,
A
23
24
25
kind of like a jog almost I
60 feet maybe?
From the tree to the mailbox?

From the tree to the
mailbox?
A
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It's not really far when you are there.

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It is not even this little amount of trees,
there is another one right here and there's another
one right here as well, that's not on this map.
I think
Is that the picture, you
are watching the ground as much as maybe you are
looking back at the scene too, so you're not seeing
everything?
Yes.
9
10
11
You are concentrating on

moving.
A
Yes, that's what I stated earlier as well.
12
Did you make it to the
13
mailbox before you heard the shots or was it as you
14
were moving that you were hearing shots?
15
It was while I was there.
At this point I
16
was kind of on the edge right here when the rest of
17
the shots rang out.
18
19
You had already stopped.

A
Yes.
20
And turned around and were
21
facing him?
22
Yes.
23
When you saw
24
Michael Brown turn around, you indicated earlier
25
that you couldn't identify any facial expressions.
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Could you tell, and you said clearly that you
couldn't hear anything.
was saying anything or not?
No.
Or trying to say words?
5
6
I wouldn't be able to see his mouth moving
or anything.
saying anything.
wasn't really listening for him
9
10
11
You didn't see his mouth

moving?
A
can't see his facial expressions.
12
13
14
Could you tell whether he
So you didn't hear

anything or you couldn't see anything?
A
No.
15
Okay.
Thank you.
16
17
go back to what
18
about.
19
just want to
were talking
When I look at the transcript from
20
September 25th, and I compare it to the transcript
21
from August 16th, to me it looks like you are saying
22
something very similar.
23
From the 16th on page 15, it says he
24
approached the window of the vehicle, Mr. Brown, he
25
approached the window of the vehicle.
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tell if he reached in or the officer reached out.
don't know.
And then you said, yet like his head and
shoulders were.
and shoulders were in the window.
yeah.
And the FBI agent says, his head

And you said,
Were his arms in the window as well.
said yeah, his arms basically, you know, steady
reaching in.
10
11
You
His whole top half in the window and
popping back out?

A
(Nods head.)
12
And then the one from the
13
25th, basically to me it looks like you are saying
14
the same thing.
15
reading this correctly.
16
I want to make sure that I'm
Okay.
17
When he saw him go into
18
the window, it seemed like he just ran.
19
one of the lady officers, she says, was he in the
20
window or parts of his body inside the window.
21
you said yeah, like his head and shoulders were.
22
And you said yes, that's what it looked like.
23
And then
And
And then later you said you saw Michael
24
Brown, you said his whole top half in the window and
25
you said yes,
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1
2
I want to make sure I'm understanding.

A
Yes.
3
4
5
His head, shoulders and

arms were in the window?
A
Yes.
6
7
8
And that's what you said

in both statements.
A
Yes.
You said here, did you
10
see the police officer's face after Michael Brown
11
left the scene and the officer was getting out?
12
After Mike Brown left the scene?

After Mike Brown was
13
14
running away and the officer got out of the car, did
15
you see the officer's face?
16
No, no.
17
18
19
You didn't see if it was

bruised or anything?
A
No,
I couldn't tell.
20
him really get out of the car.
21
was already out.
22
23
24
I didn't even see

When I looked up he
Do you know if Michael

Brown reached for his chest or under his waistband?
A
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I don't remember.
MS. ALIZADEH:
His own or the officer's?

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Michael Brown.
1
2
I don't remember.
3
4
In one of the statements

the first two shots you didn't see?
A couple of them I wasn't looking, but I
heard them ring back, to back, to back.
had to be like,
were back to back.
look and see.
10
11
12
After it
I don't remember exactly, but they

After about the third one,
I did
And you said to officer

or district attorney, whatever her name is,
, in one of your statements that you had looked
13
away.
14
that he moved forward toward the police officer,
15
what would you say about that.
16
have been one of the times I was looking away.
17
And she said, if I told you we had evidence
You said that might
Yeah.
18
So I understand, you're
19
doing very well by the way, there's a lot going on,
20
you are scared?
21
There was a lot going on.
22
I understand, Hon.
23
just want to make sure just because you are saying
24
you didn't see it, doesn't necessarily mean it
25
didn't happen.
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2
Right, right, that's the point I tried to
make.
Okay.
You said today
that you felt like this was murder.
how you felt,
officer's position.
think he should have done?
Can I ask you
I want you to put yourself in the
Okay.
I want you to tell us what you
I mean, even if I heard that people
said that he reached in the truck, even if he did
10
attack you, he was unarmed.
11
point he tried to surrender, he could have put
12
handcuffs on him.
13
why they have those nightsticks, that's why you have
14
all these other options.
15
I feel like at the
They could have maced him, that's
This is a boy who has no weapons at
16
all, you exhaust your other options.
17
but why kill him.
18
Injure him,
Thank you so much.
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
I have a question.
20
I can't remember from your previous statements, but
21
you've never heard the officer yelling any commands
22
or anything, did you?
23
24
25
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
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It's okay.

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MS. ALIZADEH:
This thought just now
occurred to me because you are a young person.
I've never asked anybody else, but did you have
headphones or ear buds that day as you were walking
back from the library?
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And
Kids walk around with
headphones on, so you didn't have anything in your
ears?
10
No,
I just wasn't really,
11
lot of noise, a lot of commotion.
12
lot of noise over there.
13
they were,
MS. ALIZADEH:
15
screaming from anybody?

A
17
18
No,
So if they weren't where
You didn't hear any
I wasn't paying attention to it.
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
It's usually a
I probably wouldn't have heard it.
14
16
I mean, it was a
Okay.
Like I said, it's a possibility they could
19
have been, but I didn't catch anything or anything I
20
would remember word for word.
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
All right, thank you.
22
23
I have one more question.
24
something hit the ground, you thought it was a
25
weapon?
FAX 314-241-6750
You said that you saw

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Yes.
3
4
And I understand now we

know that Michael Brown was not armed?
A
Yes.
5
6
7
But at the time we didn't

know that,
A
correct?
Right.
At first I thought it was his gun,
like I thought that's what hit the ground.
So it is reasonable to
10
think the police officer might think he has a gun.
11
I'm not saying that he deserved what happened to
12
him, we just didn't know that?
13
Yes.
14
Thank you.
15
You just
16
stated to the prosecutor that you never heard the
17
officer yell out any commands.
18
you know,
19
last what six shots or whatever, did you at any time
20
hear him cry out anything or cry out even in pain?
21
shots were going towards Mr. Brown, the
No.
22
No.
23
MS. ALIZADEH:
24
MS. WHIRLEY:
25
When Mr. Brown was,
Anyone else?
No.
Sheila?
That will conclude the
testimony of this witness.
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Page 78
MS. WHIRLEY:
together.
11:21 a.m.
We're still working
It is October 28th, 2014, approximately

We've concluded the testimony of
Now we're going to start with the recording
5
6
of
You have transcripts of that.
The Grand Jury Exhibit Number 55, which is the
recording for her.
anticipating she will be here as a witness probably
10
after lunch.
11
long.
We will play that.
It is somewhere around 30 minutes
With that said, XXXXXXX, stop the recording.
12
13
We are
Who are the other people

listed on here?
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
We didn't do these
15
transcripts.
I'm not sure how, why all of these
16
folks spoke.
This is what I did notice and you will
17
notice it when you hear the transcript, hear the
18
recording, there are several people at the house.
19
I'm glad you asked that question.
20
are several people at the house, and then they kind
21
of isolate
22
testimony is from her, but a few other people are
23
speaking.
and the bulk of the
24
25
Actually, there
They may be family

members or bystanders?
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MS. WHIRLEY:
People that are in the house
when the FBI arrived there to find out what
happened.
as really the witness.
Okay.
Good question.
(Playing of the interview of
5
6
And then, I guess, they narrow her down
.)
MS. WHIRLEY:
That concludes the recorded
testimony of
We do anticipate that
she will be here this afternoon, however, we are
10
going to break for lunch now.
11
lunch is here, first of all.
12
October 28th, 2014.
13
We'll see if your

And it is 11:55 a.m.,
(Lunch recess taken)
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
I'm Sheila Whirley.
We are
15
resuming our afternoon session in the shooting of
16
Michael Brown.
17
approximately 12:56.
18
12 grand jurors are present and so is XXXXXXX, the
19
court reporter.
20
first witness,
21
It is October the 28th, 2014, at

Kathi Alizadeh is present, all
We are going to start with our
As you recall, you listened to one of her
22
statements this morning before lunch.
23
live for testimony and she did also meet with the
24
federal investigative parties this morning.
25
has another statement that we don't have for you
FAX 314-241-6750

314-241-6750
She's here
So she
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1
yet.
So we will see what she has to say today.
2
3
8
9
10
11
to-wit:
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q
earlier,
Hi, as I introduced myself a little

I'm Sheila Whirley.
12
How you doing, Miss Whirley.
13
I'm good dear, thank you.
You met Kathi
14
Alizadeh, the 12 grand jurors are here, XXXXXXX, the
15
court reporter,
16
yourself to the grand jurors and spell your name,
17
please?
18
is here and I want you to introduce
Yes.
My name is
20
Okay.
21
Yes, ma'am.
22
I know you talked to several people.
19
23
And you know why we're here today?
How
many interviews have you given?
24
Well, two.
25
Two, okay.
FAX 314-241-6750
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first interview was?
Uh
If I say August the 16th, like a week
after, a little bit earlier than,
after, does that sound right?
I want to say it was probably before that.
It could have been before then,
that day.
10
I guess, a week
it could have been
It could be August 16th, kind of around
like 11 in the morning?
11
Yeah.
12
And then you had another interview today;
13
is that correct?
14
That's right.
15
That you finished?
16
This morning.
17
This morning.
Okay.
We just need you to
18
tell us what happened, so that's basically what
19
we're here for.
20
the beginning.
21
9th of 2014, on a Saturday, is that how you recall
22
it?
I'm going to ask you to start at
This would have occurred August the
23
Yes, ma'am.
24
Do you live in Canfield Green?
25
No, ma'am.
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Did you live in Canfield Green that day?
No, ma'am,
You were riding through.
4
5
I was riding through.

So what did your
morning start like, tell us about it?

A
Well, actually,
I was up early morning,
was going to make a store run, but I also stay in
the area on
9
10
11
12
13
Where is that in relation to Canfield
Green Apartment?
A
Actually, it is not that far,
it is like,
it is like down the street and around the corner.

Q
It is like off West Florissant or behind
Canfield Green?
14
I will say before you get to Canfield.
15
Okay.
16
It's a house on the other side of Solway
17
and West Florissant.
18
take to get to the Canfield.
19
20
21
22
It is a side street you can
Is it Jennings or is it in Ferguson or is
it unincorporated?
A
Well, my house was the last house of
Jennings, so I would say it is --
23
So Jennings?
24
Jennings.
25
Okay.
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you're driving through Canfield Green Apartments?
That I couldn't say.
I honestly forgot
what time it was, but I was riding through coming
from the store and I seen a friend,
visit a friend, but he wasn't at home.
couple of people that I knew outside and stopped to
ask one of the guys for a cigarette.
9
10
I was going to
So I seen a
Are those all people that live in Canfield
Green, your friend and the other people that you

saw?
11
Yeah, but my friend wasn't there.
12
All right.
13
I didn't see him at all.
14
If I tell you it was around noon or so,
15
does that sound right?
16
Yeah.
17
Where did you come from?
I mean, this is
18
West Florissant over here just to orient you to the
19
map.
20
Okay.
21
So where did you come from?
22
I was,
23
24
25
I came the back way through the
Northwinds Apartment.
Q
So you're traveling,
is it east on
Canfield toward West Florissant?
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Toward West Florissant.
That's a laser pen, it has a red light.
If you push the button, so why don't you pick that
up and there's a little button right there and,
yeah, okay.
Okay.
Uh-huh.
And I had stopped, this is a driveway
So show us how you were traveling?

I was coming down Canfield.
before you get to Coppercreek.
10
Okay.
11
I pulled in there and I got out of the
12
car,
I was talking to a friend.
13
And is this before everything happened?
14
Before everything had happened.
15
Were you riding alone?
16
Yes,
17
What kind of car were you in?
18
I had a
19
What color?
20
Burgundy.
21
Burgundy?
22
I saw a friend,
I was.
I got out and asked him
23
for a cigarette.
24
just talking in general.
25
of talking, Mike Brown and his friend was walking
FAX 314-241-6750
He was just sitting there, we was

And as we was in the midst

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across the lot.
Which way were they walking?
They was walking towards
Show us on the map if it is on the map.
They was walking down Canfield on the lot
by the trash cans, they crossed and then they walked
down the street.
I can't say.
I don't know where they was going,
Okay.
10
So they walk towards West Florissant.
11
Okay.
12
I can say that, don't know where they was
13
going.
14
Okay.
15
So we just out there generally talking.
16
So when you saw them walking towards West
17
Florissant, nothing was going on then?
18
Was nothing going on.
19
Did you know Mike Brown before this day?
20
No,
21
Did you know his friend?
22
No,
23
Describe Mike Brown so we know we are
24
25
I didn't.
I didn't.
talking about the same person?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
He was a big, tall, heavy set guy.

314-241-6750
He had
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1
on like some khaki type shorts with like a gray like
T-shirt and flip flops, he had a hat on.
Okay.
I'm not for sure.
Okay.
He was dark skin with dreads, he had on,
7
8
9
10
11
Do you remember the color?
And what did his friend look like?
think he probably had on like a white T-shirt.

Q
Are you guessing or is that what you
recall?
A
Well,
I'm guessing.
I really wasn't
paying no attention.
12
Okay.
13
What really they had on.
14
You don't have to guess.
15
All right.
16
If I ask you to give me an approximate
17
amount feet or something like that is a distance,
18
maybe as long as you let us know you are kind of
19
guessing.
20
I was at the dumpster that's on
21
Coppercreek that I'm standing by.
22
past, they was like a little distance away from me.
23
24
25
When they walk
Show me again where you were when they
walked past?
A
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This,
I don't know where directly

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1
2
3
4
Coppercreek is.
Q
This is Coppercreek is going all the way
around.
A
The dumpster is like right here on the
first parking lot.
Okay.
My car was parked right behind it, but I
8
9
was standing not that far from the dumpster.

Q
So you are having a smoke, you're talking,
10
you're chilling, this is a Saturday, you're enjoying
11
life, right?
12
Yes, ma'am.
13
I saw your testimony or read it on the
14
transcript where you were happy to be out there?
15
Yeah,
it was a beautiful day.
16
Is that what you meant by that?
17
Yeah.
18
Then what?
19
So we was out there talking,
notice
20
Ferguson was coming from the back, from the
21
Northwinds Apartment.
22
23
When you say Ferguson, you mean a police
officer?
24
Ferguson police officer was coming.
25
He was in a marked police car?
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Yes, he was in a SUV.
And why did you notice him?
I mean, because we was all standing on the
parking lot and they was coming.
When you say they, more than one?
There was two in the car.
But just one car?
Yes, SUV.
And tell me again why you notice the car?
10
Because they was riding through.
And,
11
guess, that's their way of making their rounds or
12
whatever.
13
in the midst of that I guess Mike Brown and his
14
friend,
So I really didn't pay no attention, but
not guessing, they was on their way back up.
15
Which way were they walking down?
16
They was coming back towards,
17
Show me?
19
They was coming back that way.
21
22
like they
was coming towards the Northwinds Apartment.
18
20
(indicating)
Q
All right.
And the police car, did it
have its light on or anything like that?
23
No, it did not.
24
Was it like driving fast
25
No, they was like --
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-- or like patrolling?
Like patrolling.
All right.
So Mike Brown and his friend
are walking east on Canfield Drive and what happens
then?
They was walking in the middle of the
street.
Okay.
I didn't hear what the police had said to
10
'em or what the remark was, but they was in the
11
middle of the street.
12
friend was, we didn't stay that far,
13
say, we didn't stay far.
I want to say the guy, his

I heard him
14
You heard the friend say that?
15
I heard the friend say, we didn't stay
16
that far.
17
We didn't stay that far?
18
Right.
19
Don't know what was going on with that?
20
Don't know what was going on or what was
22
Did you hear Mike Brown say anything?
23
No,
24
Did you hear the police officer say
21
25
said.
I didn't.
anything?
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Page 90
I didn't hear anything.
Now,
I need you to show me again where you
were when you heard his friend say, we didn't go
that far or what he said?
I was standing like right in the parking
lot,
I was still standing like, not that close from
the dumpster.
Okay.
And they was sort of walking like in the
10
middle of the street.
11
So where were they when you heard it?
12
Right up in there.
13
Where was the police car, right next to
14
15
(indicating)
them or something?
A
It is like right next to 'em, they like in
16
the middle of the street, right in the middle of the
17
street.
18
Okay.
19
He pulled up like, they divide each other.
20
They in the middle walking up the street, the police
21
coming down,
22
car can go through.
23
24
25
of course, they like split up so the
Okay.
So you saw them split up, they were
on either side of the police car?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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October 28, 2014
Page 91
Q
What side of the police car was Mike Brown
On the driver's side.
What side was Dorian?
The passenger side.
So they were on opposite sides of the car?
Yes.
Was Dorian talking to anybody on the
on?
passenger side?
10
Huh-uh.
11
Okay.
12
I seen the police pull off and then next
13
14
And then what did you see?
thing you know, he pulled back.

Q
In what manner did he pull back, was it
15
quick, was it just normal, was there anything
16
noticeable about how he pulled back?
17
Wasn't noticeable.
18
So he pulls back?
19
Pulls back.
20
Does he pull back straight in a line or
21
some other way?
22
I want to say straight back in a line.
23
So like if I'm going to back, he just went
24
25
straight back, he didn't move one way or the other?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
No.

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Okay, go ahead.
So as he pulled back,
I guess that's when
he went to go and try to grab him.
Did you say you guess?
Well, no, he grabbed, he went to go and
grab him, that's when they start tussling.

So the police officer pulls back and grabs
Mike Brown?
Yes, and they was tussling.
10
Could you see the officer's arm?
11
He grabbed him from the outside,
12
grabbed him.
13
14
just
I want to kind of focus on what you saw.
Did you see the officer's arm?
15
No,
16
You didn't see the officer's arm, but he
17
18
was grabbing him?

A
Like I say,
19
altercation.
20
excuse me,
21
22
23
24
25
I did not.
I just seen a little
I didn't know if he was, oh Lord,
I got nervous.
Don't get nervous, we're just trying to
find out what you saw.

A
tussling.
FAX 314-241-6750
They was tussling I,
can say they was
I didn't see his arm or anything.

You didn't see the officer's arm?

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No.
Could you see Mike Brown's?
I did see him shy back, like he went to go
and jump back.
Okay.
And that's when we first was like what's
going on.
shot.
Then, that's when we heard the first
Okay.
Now, before we get to the shot,
10
want to make sure I understand.
11
you are looking at Mike Brown and the officer,
12
because all of this is real important, and I know
13
you probably know this because that's why you had
14
these interviews.
15
Can you see, where
When you see Mike Brown and the
16
officer and you believe they're tussling, are you
17
looking, is your vision at the passenger side of the
18
car or the driver's side of the car?
19
The passenger side.
20
Okay.
So you're standing here and the car
21
is going west, so you're at the passenger side and
22
the driver's side
23
On the left side, so I really couldn't
24
see.
So, therefore, when they was on the passenger
25
side, he grabbed back, that's when the first gunshot
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2
went off.
Q
Right.
I know you want to get to that
gunshot, but I really want to make sure that we're
clear on your vantage point, you know, like where
you could see it, like where you were.
I was standing right by the dumpster.
You can see Dorian still?
Just to help us a little bit, we don't know where
10
the dumpster is.
11
please?
12
Can you mark that on there for us,
Let's see.
It may not even be on the
13
photo I don't think.
I don't want to do it wrong.
14
There's another parking lot.
15
like right up here, dumpster right here, dumpster
16
right here.
(indicating)
17
18
19
20
You were right next to the

dumpster you said?
A
dumpster.
21
22
23
I want to say it was
I was like right up in there by the

(indicating)
MS. WHIRLEY:
Where are they when you saw
them, like you said, tussling?

A
This is Coppercreek, this is Canfield,
24
here is the tree, they was like right up in here.
25
(indicating)
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Page 95
MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
Like right up in there.
(indicating)
Thank you.
3
MS. ALIZADEH:
Can I ask while you were
standing up there.
the pen and where is the dumpster?
down if you can.
8
9
12
13
I need glasses,
No,
just sit
it is right there.
(indicating)
10
11
It is,
I couldn't see around you, use
MS. ALIZADEH:
Good, all right,
I just
couldn't see.
Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
Now, we've got to ask you
about your vision.
14
I do need glasses, excuse me.
15
What do you need glass for?
16
For?
17
To see far way?
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
Do you need glasses like me to read up
20
close also?
21
Yes.
22
Do you wear glasses?
23
I don't have them, but I do.
24
Do you have contacts instead?
25
No.
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So you need help with your vision, but you
don't have any?
No.
Okay.
So that particular day were you
wearing anything to help your vision?
Huh-uh.
But you did need some help?
I mean,
You were okay?
10
I was okay.
11
So you're pretty firm and secure about
12
it was light so.
what you saw you are telling us about?
13
Yes.
14
Even though your vision is not perfect?
15
Yes.
16
How about your hearing?
17
Fine.
18
No problem with the hearing?
19
No problem.
20
Don't need an aid or anything?
21
No.
22
Okay.
You know,
I'm going to ask you, do
23
you think you were as close to the scene where the
24
officer and Mike Brown were tussling as this room
25
depicts or was it much further than this room?
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Like from where you are,
walking,
to them?
I start
is it beyond this wall, how close you were
Yeah.
Okay.
There was the street and the dumpster was
kind of a little ways.
So it was a pretty good little distance?
Yeah.
10
But you see?
11
But I
12
And you're sure of what you saw?
13
Yeah.
14
Now,
could see.
you did tell us today that you
15
weren't sure what they were doing in the car, but
16
they were tussling?
17
They was tussling.
18
At one point you thought that the officer
19
grabbed Mike Brown?
20
When he pulled back.
21
When he pulled back, did he grab Mike
22
Brown.
23
I'm sure he pulled back.
24
When the officer pulled back,
25
Are you sure or unsure about that today?
you mean
backed the car up?
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When he backed the car up.
He grabbed Mike Brown?
Yes.
That was the first physical thing that
happened?
Is that a yes?
Yes, ma'am.
So how did he grab him, where did he grab
him at?
A
Like by the shirt, like the neck collar
11
So was the car window down?
12
Yes, it was.
13
So did you see his arm?
14
When it went out the window.
15
Uh-huh.
16
Yes, ma'am.
17
Okay.
18
Yes.
19
So you say you did see his arm?
20
When he went out the window.
21
You could see, what color was he?
22
He was white.
23
He was white.
24
Uniform.
25
I mean, did he have on a uniform?
9
10
part.
FAX 314-241-6750
You weren't clear on that earlier.
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Yes.
Long or short sleeve?
Short sleeve.
Okay.
happened when he grabbed him?
That's when the tussling started, and
that's when the first pow went off.
And he grabbed him and what
Did you see them tussling once the officer
grabbed him, there was a tussle?
10
There was a tussle.
11
How long would you say that tussle went
13
It wasn't long.
14
Seconds, minutes?
15
It was probably, maybe like two minutes.
16
Okay.
17
Yes.
18
All right.
19
I'm not going to be --
20
Did you see Mike Brown hit the officer?
21
No.
22
Okay.
12
23
on?
It wasn't long at all.
We know that's a guess,
correct?
Did you see him with his fist,
did
you see his hands?
24
It was as if he was trying to get away.
25
Show us what you mean?
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He was like, when the police grabbed him,
it was like as if he was trying to, like break away
from the police.
Okay.
So you didn't see his hands inside
the police car?
No, ma'am.
You didn't see him, his body inside the
police car?
No, ma'am.
10
Okay.
11
When the police grabbed him by the neck,
So then what did you see?
12
he shied away from him, that's when the first shot
13
went off.
14
black Monte Carlo that was also parked on Canfield
15
in front of an apartment building.
16
like right up in here.
His friend Dorian ran and hid beside a
Not that far,
(indicating)
17
Okay.
18
He hid right here.
That's when Mike
19
Brown, on the first shot, he turned around and ran.
20
I was trying to run and there was another lady who
21
was also coming out of her apartment was in the
22
midst of running.
23
24
first shot?
25
first shot?
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Not Dorian, Mike Brown, was hit by the

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Yes, ma'am.
Why do you say that?
Because when he turned around,
I seen a
red spot on his shirt.
Now, you are pointing to your upper right?
He got shot up in this area.
Are you saying the right or the left?
When you turn around,
(indicating)
I want to say might
have been on the left.
10
I don't want you to guess.
11
The left I will say.
12
Are you sure about that?
13
Yeah,
14
Okay.
15
Red spot on his shirt.
16
Okay.
17
And that's when he stopped and when he
18
I'm sure.
And you saw a red
stopped.
19
20
at the car?
21
When you say he stopped, did he stop right
No, he stop, actually, like it's like a
22
light pole and a tree.
23
that tree and the light pole.
24
25
He stopped right there at
We have to kind of take it step by step,
know you are getting tired of all of this, but
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1
that's how we have to do.
away from that car when he stopped, did you see him
leave the car.
When I seen him break away from the car,
he was running.
was going to run.
fired,
10
That gave me the assumption that I
What did he do when the shot was
did he just break and run?

He broke and run, but he stopped, he
stopped in stride.
11
12
Okay.
I tell us how far he got
I want to know about him running though,
where did he go behind the car?
13
No, he didn't go behind no car.
14
What did he do?
15
His friend ran behind the car.
16
Where did Mike Brown run to?
17
He ran towards the light, he was running
18
like towards the light pole, like towards my
19
direction.
20
Okay.
21
Yeah, and he was running like towards that
23
So in the grass?
24
And he stopped his stride and stopped
22
25
The dumpster you show us was here?
way.
right there like by the tree in between the light
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October 28, 2014
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1
pole.
Okay.
He stopped, hands was up.
Can you show us how he, well, first of
all, you didn't say he turned around, did he turn
around or was he running backwards?
No, he was running like towards my
direction.
Okay.
10
Looking toward like my way.
11
Okay.
12
He stopped.
13
Uh-huh.
14
And that's when he turned around.
15
Show us that.
16
17
Show us like, you know, go
that way and then show us how you turn around?

A
He,
I'm standing over there, he's running
18
and then he turns around and he was like that way.
19
(indicating)
20
Did you hear him say anything?
21
He might of.
22
You don't have to guess, did you hear him
23
24
25
say anything?
A
That's where I thought I heard him say he
gave up.
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You heard him say what?
I give up.
You're not sure?
I heard him say don't give up.
Don't give up?
I give up,
I give up.
I give up.
Where did he say that?
10
That's when he started walking back
11
I mean.
towards the officer.
12
So how was he walking towards the officer?
13
He went like this with his hands up, and
14
when he reached that way that's when the police
15
started four shots.
16
17
18
(indicating)
How did he reach.
You say he reached that
I mean, he had his hands up like this, he
way?
19
never went down or reached out, he still had his
20
hands up.
21
letting off more shots.
And that's when the police started
22
You never saw him like go to his waist?
23
His hands never went down.
24
When the officer was shooting?
25
When the officer start shooting, his hands
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1
never went down.
How many shots did the officer fire?
Uh,
it was over six, it was six to nine
rounds.
All about
The first shot pow, pause.
And that was at the car?
That was at the car.
Okay.
10
When he turned around to go back, as if he
11
was surrendering, that's when the rest of the shots
12
started going off.
13
Okay.
So when Mike Brown was surrendering
14
and he was walking towards the officer, what was the
15
officer doing before he started shooting or did he
16
just start shooting?
17
He just started shooting.
18
The officer didn't back up or walk toward
19
Mike Brown?
20
He just started shooting.
21
Did he say anything to him,
22
No, he just started shooting.
23
He didn't tell him to stop or anything?
24
If he did,
25
like get down?
I didn't hear that part,
I just
know the gunshots start ringing off.
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Were you close enough to hear it?
The gunshots?
Were you close enough to hear if the
officer said something?
No.
You were not close enough?
No.
But you were close enough to hear Mike
Brown?
10
He screamed like,
11
He was screaming?
12
He screamed,
13
So if the officer was screaming a command
14
I give up.
I give up.
or something, do you expect to have heard it?
15
I would have heard it.
16
Okay.
Now, this other officer, when did
17
you see him, you said it was two officers in the
18
car?
19
20
21
22
Yes,
I mean, when he got out of the car,
didn't really get no description of him.

Q
Before you kind of jump too far.
Are you
saying the officer, the other officer?
23
He was in the passenger seat.
24
He was in the passenger seat,
25
front?
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The front seat.
Did you see him get out of the car?
(Shakes head.)
Okay.
No, ma'am.
Okay.
So he did not get out of the car?
From what you could see, what did
you, what did you tell us about the other officer
was he a black or white man?
He was a white cop too.
10
Did he look young or old?
11
He could have been middle age or young,
12
don't know.
13
Did he look to be in uniform?
14
They both was in uniform.
15
Okay.
16
No.
17
Or you didn't see him?
18
I didn't see the passenger door open at
Okay.
19
But he never got out of the car?
all.
20
21
And since your vantage point was
from the passenger side, that's where Dorian was?
22
Yes.
23
You could see this other officer in the
Yes.
24
25
car?
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October 28, 2014
Page 108
Q
And that officer never got out to assist
I never --
I have to ask the question and then you
answer.
time.
He can't take us both down at the same
I'm sorry.
You never, when the officer, when the
9
10
gunshot went off, you never saw the other officer do

anything?
11
No, ma'am.
12
And when Darren Wilson we know is the
13
shooting officer, when he got out, the other officer
14
never got out to assist him?
15
No, ma'am.
16
But you're positive there was another
17
officer in the car?
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
Okay.
20
(Shakes head. )
21
Did you ever see Mike Brown with a weapon?
22
No, ma'am.
23
And when I
24
25
Did you ever see a weapon fall?
ask you about a weapon falling,
what was your answer?

A
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No.

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Page 109
Okay.
When you saw Mike Brown stop and
turn around,
the 16th, and we've had your statement so we know,
at least the first one, of course,
mention that he turned around as if he was defending
himself or giving up, which are two different
things.
9
10
I think your first statement on August
I think you
Well, there was so much going on,
to say he was surrendering himself.

defend hisself,
I meant
I didn't say to
I meant to say surrendering.
11
Okay.
12
Giving up.
13
Is what you meant?
14
Yes, ma'am.
15
Did it look like at any time he was trying
16
17
Surrendering or giving up?
to defend himself from the officer to you?

A
As far as getting away, he grabbed him,
18
yes, it was like as if he was like, why is you
19
grabbing me, like what did I do, that type.
20
Okay.
Now, when Mike Brown was running
21
away, you were trying to explain to me how he ran.
22
So you said he didn't run very far,
23
to me?
24
25
so explain that
I mean, from the middle of the street to
the light pole like where, it is like light pole and
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there is some trees right there in front of his
apartment building right there.
Uh-huh.
Like the parking lot, he didn't run that
far from Mike from right here to there.
It wasn't
far at all.
Okay.
Before he turned around.
And when he was running away from the
(indicating)
Before he turned around?
10
officer, when he had his back to the officer, did
11
you hear any shots being fired?
12
No.
13
How many shots would you say you heard
14
15
16
17
18
total from the start of the car?

A
One,
I'm going to say like it's about six,
between six and nine shots.

Q
Okay.
And when he was walking towards the
officer?
19
He had his hands up.
20
He had his hands up?
21
Yes, ma'am.
22
Did you ever see him like run towards the
23
24
25
officer?
A
No, ma'am.
He stopped and he turns around
and he like was walking back towards the officer.
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1
2
What was your opinion of why he was
walking towards the officer?

Like as if he was surrendering, and that
first shot,
was surrendering hisself like,
what did I do?
8
9
I guess, he noticed he was shot.

I give up.
Like,
Did it look like he was falling into the
officer's body or something?

A
No,
it was like as if he was walking back
10
towards him.
11
when the police started letting off the shots.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
So he
He was going back towards him, that's
Now, did you take any video or pictures of
the shooting?
A
No,
I didn't.
I didn't get none of that
at all.
Q
Did you get anything like after the
shooting?
A
I got after the shooting, it's not much,
but I got some of it.

Q
What did you do with that video, was it
video or pictures?
22
I got videos on my phone.
23
Do you have it with you?
24
Yes, ma'am.
25
Just hold tight, we will have to deal with
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that later.
Did you turn that over to the police?
To the FBI.
The FBI have it?
Yes.
Okay.
Do you know
6
7
No.
Okay.
That's what I need to know.

?
Do you remember when you talked to
the FBI at the house,
I guess it was in Canfield
10
Green?
11
Uh-huh.
12
Whose house were you at when you were
13
talking to them?
14
I was at my friend's house.
15
What is her name?
16
No, that was a guy.
17
What's his name?
18
19
20
MS. ALIZADEH:
I'm sorry, what's his name?
MS. ALIZADEH:
21
22
23
(By Ms. Whirley) And he lived at Canfield?
24
Yes.
25
Where was that apartment at that
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Darren Wilson Transcript13

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Darren Wilson Transcript13

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State of Missouri v.

he pulled his car back.

And I was on the phone

talking to the captain as I was running down the

street to finish peeing in the toilet.

What captain, who did you call?

I can't remember the captain's name I

called, but I called and said I want to speak to the

captain, lieutenant, or a sergeant.

Yes, this was Ferguson Police Department.

Did you speak with one of them, with the

Yes, that's what he said who he was.

can't say that's who he was because I'm on the

And he say, well, did the officer do any

bodily harm to you or nothing.

me feel smaller than what I would be because I had

after I peed on myself.

I said he just made

He say, did he let you go?

I don't think that's right.

don't beat up nobody,

I'm just running down the street.

south side city or south side county, west side and

I do nothing like crazy stuff.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

run anywhere I want to run and not be stopped by an

and not be stopped by an officer at all.

I can run anywhere I want to run

Did he get out of the car when he stopped

No, he stayed in his vehicle, he didn't

Did you see him ever again before the

I saw him in Jennings.

And that was before the shooting

Yeah, that was before the shooting

When you saw him in Jennings, was this

before or after the incident where you peed on

It was before I saw him in Jennings.

saw him in Jennings twice.

What was going on when you saw him in

I seen him at Jennings.

I stay at Jennings sometimes.

Did you have conversation with him those

Gore Perry Reporting and Video

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Hi and bye, that's it.

speak to me and I say hi, he'll say hi and I'll say

So you knew him when you saw him and he

knew you when he saw you?

We didn't have no like personal thing,

when I saw you, I say hi, you know, it is just me.

So after this happened, after you

peed on yourself, did you have occasion to see him

Uh, no, I didn't see him no more until

Until that incident?

And I wasn't for sure that was him or not

cause I saw like the side of him, so and then when

they showed a picture of him, I say I know him.

So as you sit here today, you know that

the Darren Wilson that they've shown that did the

shooting is the one that stopped you when you were

running trying to get home?

Now, when you talked with the FBI,

according to my notes it was maybe August 26th of