Truthhertz: Anybody Use The Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?
1 of 8
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/15853-anybody-use-goodchord-vo...

Printable View
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3
...
Last
TruthHertz
06-22-2011, 04:48 PM
Anybody use the Goodchord (Mick Goodrick) Voice Leading Books?

Mick Goodrick (AKA Mr Goodchord) wrote a series of voluminous books on voice leading.
Has anybody in this group had experience with these Goodrick VOICE LEADING books? Anybody able to relate how it changed the way you look
at the fingerboard?
FatJeff
06-22-2011, 05:47 PM
LOL, check your title
JakeAcci
06-22-2011, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatJeff
LOL, check your title
That's the name. Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page
FatJeff
06-22-2011, 05:59 PM
Oh. Looked like a typo given the author's name. my bad.
whatswisdom
06-22-2011, 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
That'sthename.Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page
Looks defunct to me. Anyone have the inside scoop on his activities and on how to get hold of the books? "Advancing Guitarist" is a classic. I'd
love to find out how to get more of his stuff.:confused:
TruthHertz
06-22-2011, 10:33 PM
Yes, advancing guitarist you can still get. The voice leading almanac is out of print with no plans for a resurrection, that's why I was wondering
if anyone worked with them. They were like the immersion language version of sounds you never thought you'd get out of a guitar. He
meticulously and exhaustively worked out all permutations of voicings in cycles, and the sounds are so subtle that much of the time you can't
tell what the harmony is, it's just like shadows moving over a landscape. I posted this because, though they went out of print a couple of years
ago, there must be some people who have worked at least some of the cycles through and use these things in their playing. I wanted to find
out just how it's working out.
When I asked him what the book was about, after the first volume came out, he said "the harmony we know is like the fish in the sea. We
think of all these kinds of fish, all shapes and sizes, but what we know is just the ones that live along the surface. They're sun loving creatures.
Beneath that there's an ocean filled with creatures we've never encountered. These are the sounds that voice led cycles will reveal: beings with
all sorts of things sticking out, strange shapes that move in beautifully unimagined ways. Then he played some and I swear it wasn't a guitar he
was playing. Like Bach chorale meets Stockhausen.
I was hoping with this being a jazz guitar group, and one with adventurers looking for new arranging approaches, I might find someone that is
making their way through those books.
David
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
2 of 8
bako
06-22-2011, 11:51 PM
I have the 1st book and have seen the others.

Mick presents many scale derived chords voice led through all the cyclical diatonic progressions.
I see this as fundamental awareness of the inherent harmonic content of a scale.
Nothing profound or conceptually complicated but I believe that building this type of thorough foundation
can change one's musical world.
Book #1 addresses triads, 7ths, 1 5 7 9 and 1 7 9 11 triad over bass note structure derived from major, melodic minor and harmonic minor
scales.
ronjazz
06-23-2011, 12:30 AM
My very first session with the voice-leading almanac was stunning, opening up the world of voice-leading in a way that the Van Eps method
could only do after months of study. amazing stuff.
TruthHertz
06-23-2011, 03:30 AM
Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches.
Some begin to see the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some
have used it as an arranging tool. Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others
can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic
concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized
sections can be intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a
week or something and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from
there. In this way those that don't have the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of
these being sold by students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing
to explore looking at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David
jsepguitar
06-23-2011, 08:11 AM
I've also been interested to find out about these books. One thing I did find online are these articles written for keyboard players.
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_1.pdf
http://classes.berklee.edu/gr/mgc_2.pdf
Billnc
06-23-2011, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see
the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool.
Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice
progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
I was hoping to start a sort of running support group of people to use this material (its very presentation in 3 volumes of telephone book sized sections can be
intimidating) so we might report and share the fruits of the collective labours.
I'll wait and let the thread run for a little while, and see what happens. Perhaps if there's interest, a group might collectively share a cycle a week or something
and report back on how it goes. In that case, maybe we might share the prerequisite pages via attachment and go from there. In this way those that don't have
the book(s) might get them one grouping a week via email within the group.
It seems people balked at the price while it was out there and now it's unobtainably out of print. The end of the semester used to see lots of these being sold by
students done with the semester, now their black market value is through the roof.
Please let me know if there's interest. Not for the faint hearted, not for those content with root in the bass drop 2 playing. Yes for those willing to explore looking
at the guitar as a one man string quartet.
David
I'd be interested. I took a 40 hour seminar with him in 1987 or so. Since I've been back to playing guitar seriously I've finished a review of
traditional chords and I want to start working on his stuff again. I was going to start with quartal harmony as he is one of the few to go beyond
just stacked 4ths and utilize inversions and voice leading that is not just parallel 4ths up and down the neck.
I have many many notes, from the course and about 5 years work after, but I don't want to review. I'd rather have a fresh outlook. I was
really disappointed to see his project with the books is discontinued. He's probably THE world expert on guitar harmony, period.
whatswisdom
06-23-2011, 01:26 PM
Quote:
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
3 of 8
Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became
available.
wizard3739
06-23-2011, 01:31 PM
interesting
Quote:
Ah, you are a rare and hard to find individual! For as many people I've met who actually work with the book, there are that many approaches. Some begin to see
the intervals of root movement differently and have acquired an entirely different set of voicings merely from using it. Some have used it as an arranging tool.
Some have created study groups to explore its use in a situation where everyone can solo while the others can run individual lines individually or in multiple voice
progression. All have reported profound changes in the shift from "block" type harmonic concept to a completely linear awareness of 4 simultaneous voices.
David
I am interested also. I went thru George Van Epps 1st book and really got a lot out of it. I've never seen the Mick Goodrick books but the
desciption sounds like something I might be interested in.
wiz
TruthHertz
06-23-2011, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Count me in. I only have "Advancing Guitarist," though. Don't have the $$ to pay black market but would pay cover price if they became available.
Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as
PDF to the group or email attachment or something.
Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.
More later.
David
whatswisdom
06-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Great! When we reach a critical mass here (read as: when I have a little time) I'll share a small segment for us all to work on, either post as PDF to the group or
email attachment or something. Then we can see what we collectively and individually come up with.More later. David
Sounds like a plan. Thanks for your efforts, Dave. Looking forward to some new (to me) Goodrick.
Billnc
06-23-2011, 05:42 PM
Thanks Dave!
whiskey02
06-26-2011, 09:18 PM
I have extra (unused) copies of Volumes 1 & 2 that were gifted to after I'd bought them. If anyone is interested in them, please shoot me a
PM. Cover prices are US $50 and $35 plus shipping. I'm in Florida USA.
whiskey02
06-29-2011, 06:44 PM
The Goodrick volumes have been sold. Thanks for your interest.
e_del
06-30-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
4 of 8
I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to
share them in open-source format...
TruthHertz
06-30-2011, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_del
I'm interested in those books too... too late to find them i suppose...
I was wondering if it was realistic thinking to re-write some of the cycle diagrams (at least the major scale ones) in a collective workteam, to share them in
open-source format...
I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?

David
e_del
06-30-2011, 05:37 PM
Quote:
David
Sure :)
Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?
TruthHertz
06-30-2011, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Sure :)
Did you already set the specs for the documents (fonts, layout, etc...)?
No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David
e_del
06-30-2011, 08:01 PM
Quote:
No, I was going to scan some cycles and share them with those here that wanted to. Suggestions?
David
Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a
reference...
I'll let you know if I get into something useful...
Billnc
06-30-2011, 10:54 PM
As I said, I refuse to look at my notes for review, I want to rediscover after all these years. I've just written out the quartal 4 note chords in C
with their inversions. I learned the voicings of each chord's inversions up and down the neck. My next step, and where I am at now is starting
with one chord, use good voice leading to work through cycle 2. I've marked off transitions I like and then tried to find some uses for those bits.
Is this the working of of the books?
bako
07-01-2011, 12:52 AM
I posted some ideas and examples that sprang from this thread about the "Goodchord" series.
The first explores what intervallic structures can be applied to any scale degree in a 7 note scale and consequentially be voice led through the
various diatonic cycle progressions.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...te-scales.html
The second takes the idea of interchanging 4th chords from 2 modes voiced through cycles.
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/compi...ing-modes.html
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
5 of 8
Included in the 2nd thread are Major and Melodic Minor 4th chords voiced in 2nds.
I look forward to any forum interactions around this type of study approach.
wizard3739
07-01-2011, 02:40 AM
good study subject

Quote:
David
Include me in, David. I am very interested in anything you wish to share.

wiz
07-01-2011, 03:51 AM
e_del
Quote:
1 Attachment(s)

Not yet... at the moment I'm exploring LibreOffice as a tool to generate the cycles, and I'm taking the two files indicated by jsepguitar as a reference...
I'll let you know if I get into something useful...
It just played around with cycle 3 triads progression, and looking at the stepwise voice movement, it seems that there's a "formula" repeating:
Code:
-1
-1
0
-1 0 ...
0 -1 ...
-1 -1 ...
Where:
-1=diatonic movement downward
0 = no movement
is this true for all the cycles?
If yes, can someone post these "formulas"? I't should be quite simple to generate the data with a spreadsheet...
In a couple of hours I went to a sample page (that should be attached to this message.. hopefully).
Having the cycles formula it shouldn't take too much time to generate all the other ones...
e_del
much easier to write than to play on the guitar! :-)
Here is a new, more complete version of the document...
07-01-2011, 06:19 PM
1 Attachment(s)
I hope it's of some interest for some of you...:)
TruthHertz
07-02-2011, 12:12 AM
This is great!. Thank you so much.

Let's take these and start to run them through, all sets of strings possible, as complete a coverage on the fingerboard as possible. And let's
throw in our observations, questions, suggestions and frustrations after a few days.
There are some ways I know this can be used but let's come back with our notes after spending some time on this.
Of course let's all chime in if anyone's having any problem getting started.
Start your engines!
David
Meggy
07-02-2011, 03:35 AM
Quote:
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
6 of 8
David
I never knew these books existed, but it seems like fascinating stuff to me. Don't know how much use I could be, but please do count me in to
any group effort to keep this material alive - it seems too important to let go. So yes, there certainly is interest from me, and cheers for posting
about this.
TruthHertz
07-02-2011, 04:02 AM
Meggy, much of what we do here will have never been done before. Period. That's why it's so exciting. Mick discovered that there were rules of
linear harmony that revealed sounds never imagined no less played on guitar, and these could be learned as compositional tools. He also saw
no distinction at all between composition and improvisation, save the amount of time allowed to do each.
So for each cycle, it marks the root movement. Cycle 2 being a walk up the scale, cycle 4 being the cycle of 4 (or 5 whether you're going up or
down)-like All The Things- and so on. Maybe we'll all focus on a specific cycle or figure out how we want to tackle this as a group.
There is next to no guidance from Mick in these books so let this little group be the research group and let's observe how it changes the way
we see our relationship to the notes we use everyday.
Sound good?
again thank you e_del. Everyone: e_del's attachment in posting #28 has all we need to begin here. Post all questions.
David
bako
07-02-2011, 08:41 AM
e_del's chart presents the Major triad cycles in open voicing.

Harmonically played there are multiple forms for each chord on the following string groups.
6 5 3-----5 4 2-----4 3 1
6 4 3-----5 3 2-----4 2 1
6 4 2-----5 3 1
I practiced each line separately as an organizational method. Others may prefer to grab the easiest form of each chord.
To get the close position triads take the top note of each chord and move it to the middle voice.
Harmonically these are played on any 3 consecutive strings.
There are even more ways to configure these notes melodically or 2 notes + 2 notes broken style, integrating octave doubles and pedal tones
above or below
but the above fingerings are plenty for starters.
To get the other 7 note scale harmonizations do the following.
Melodic Minor-----lower the 3rd of each key. The triads of Melodic Minor are I-mi II-mi bIII-aug IV-Ma V-Ma VI-dim VII-dim
Harmonic Minor-----lower the 3rd and 6th of each key. The triads of Harmonic Minor are I-mi II-dim bIII-aug IV-mi V-Ma bVI-Ma VII-dim
Harmonic Major-----lower the 6th of each key. The triads of Harmonic Major are I-Ma II-dim III-min IV-mi V-Ma bVI-aug VII-dim
e_del
07-02-2011, 09:16 AM
yes, those are the one I copied from the keyboard-oriented article cited earlier in this thread, to test my "generator" :)
Since it seems to work fine (but if you find errors, please tell me), the next step will be to implement all the open/closed triads, and the other
scales
But actually your hints to derive all the positions/scales are indeed a good way to learn and correlate them one to another...
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
7 of 8
TruthHertz
07-02-2011, 09:36 AM
Yeah, once we get rolling, the possibilities get overwhelming pretty fast. 3 volumes fast. That's why I thought a support group and a finite
quantity each week or so would be a good idea.
When Mick was still writing the book, he gave me a formula and the way to put it together, just as an idea. I spent that summer in the desert
in Nevada with a notebook just unravelling numbers and notes for hours. It was incredibly meditative and amazing. I started to see patterns
emerging about the interrelationships of chordal groupings.
d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this
point too. That's why I wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.
David
JakeAcci
07-02-2011, 09:37 AM
Just wanted to say I really appreciate this thread too. There are too many other things I'm working on right now to really dig into this stuff, but
it's cool to see it's here when it's time for me to spend more time on this type of harmonic thinking.
Really nice that threads like this can exist among all the...others.
e_del
07-02-2011, 09:52 AM
Quote:
d_del, do you have the voice leading books? bako's ideas are spot on, but there are also other ways to look at them that are unseen at this point too. That's why I
wanted to chew on them a few days before we "debriefed" as a group. I am looking forward to this.
David
Unfortunately not.
(I can ask a friend to borrow his ones for a while, but don't see him often.)
That's why i started to think this DIY thing...
e_del
07-02-2011, 09:58 AM
Quote:
yes, those are the one I copied from the keyboard-oriented article cited earlier in this thread, to test my "generator" :)
Since it seems to work fine (but if you find errors, please tell me), the next step will be to implement all the open/closed triads, and the other scales.
oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony :) :)
Billnc
07-02-2011, 10:40 AM
Quote:
oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony :) :)
I'm working pretty extensively on the 4 note quartal stuff and using his ideas.
One thing in general, Mick has to have worked very fast to accomplish anything. Not all of this results in 'good stuff'. There are gems, I'm
guessing grab these, mark them and move on.
I've also found uses for chords I already know and inversions of those. It is one thing to know G13th chords all up the neck, another to know
inversions of one G13th chord up the neck. Some of these chord shapes while sounding cool are VERY difficult to go from one to the next. This
really helps get the grips together.
Anything I can do to help, let me know. Very cool thread.
bako
07-02-2011, 11:34 AM
When faced with a voicing that I can't play simultaneously, I break it into fragments.
Ex. for a 4 note chord
1 + 234
12/25/2014 10:44 AM
8 of 8
123 + 4
12 + 34
12 + 23
13 + 24
14 + 23
12 + 13
12 + 23
13 + 23
14 + 24
+ 34
+
+
+
+
14
24
34
34
Etc.
I can be at times a bit of that other word for thorough. I try to not omit a voicing just because it's a bit unplayable.
07-03-2011, 11:18 AM
e_del
The first volume (triads) is on arrival.. :-)
Looking at all the combinations, it's going to be
2 pages * 4 scales * 6 cycles * 2 positions (open/close) * 3 inversions
... wow... 288 pages!
maybe making a file per scale is better...
If someone could write some guidelines on how to use these diagrams, I'd be glad to insert them as an introductory page...
oh, and is there anyone fond of Creative Commons licencing, and all that stuff?
Ther shouldn't be any problem because I'm writing this "permutation exercise" from scratch, and moreover the original work in not available
anymore... anyway I'd like NOT to be involved in any future legal dispute for this work... :-)
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3
...
Last
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin Version 4.2.2
Copyright 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright 2014 Jazzguitar.be
Digital Point modules: Sphinx-based search
12/25/2014 10:44 AM

Truthhertz: Anybody Use The Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

You might also like

Truthhertz: Anybody Use The Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

Truthhertz: Anybody Use The Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Anybody use the Goodchord (Mick Goodrick) Voice Leading Books?

LOL, check your title

That's the name. Mr. Goodchord Publications - Entry Page

Oh. Looked like a typo given the author's name. my bad.

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

I have the 1st book and have seen the others.

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

I'm going to do that. Coming aboard the group?

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

good study subject

Include me in, David. I am very interested in anything you wish to share.

Originally Posted by e_del

I hope it's of some interest for some of you...:)

This is great!. Thank you so much.

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

e_del's chart presents the Major triad cycles in open voicing.

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

oh and I forgot the 4-note chords and quartal harmony :) :)

Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

You might also like