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USA V Kent Hovind Trial Transcripts (6 of 8)
USA V Kent Hovind Trial Transcripts (6 of 8)
USA V Kent Hovind Trial Transcripts (6 of 8)
)
)
Plaintiff,
)
)
vs.
)
)
KENT E. HOVIND
)
and JO D. HOVIND,
)
)
)
Defendants.
)
______________________________)
CASE NO.
3:06cr83/MCR
Pensacola,Florida
October 31, 2006
8:00 A.M.
VOLUME VII
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE M. CASEY RODGERS,
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
2
7:48AM
I N D E X
WITNESSES:
PAGE
19
207
CERTIFICATE
249
5
6
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8
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Gwen B. Kesinger, RPR, FCRR
Official United States Court Reporter
Pensacola, Florida 32502
3
7:48AM
(Court in session.)
(Defendants present.)
THE COURT:
Good morning.
I know we're in
cross-examination now.
MS. HELDMYER:
Evans who will have some summary testimony and tax computations
10
11
12
THE COURT:
13
14
Thank you.
15
16
All right.
MR. RICHEY:
Honor.
17
THE COURT:
Okay.
18
19
MR. BARRINGER:
20
Honor?
21
22
THE COURT:
23
24
rebuttal, I presume?
25
4
8:01AM
1
2
THE COURT:
All right.
MS. HELDMYER:
I believe so.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. RICHEY:
I told
10
them yesterday that I didn't think that we'd get to them today.
11
12
apologize.
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14
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living.
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24
THE COURT:
25
MR. RICHEY:
5
8:02AM
1
2
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
Okay.
not.
And I don't know how close they are, and you can
its case and you looking at me and saying I don't have anyone
here.
10
11
MR. RICHEY:
I understand.
calls.
12
THE COURT:
13
and come back tomorrow, but that's the way it works with
14
trials.
15
16
17
this case.
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19
MR. RICHEY:
20
DEFENDANT K. HOVIND:
21
MR. RICHEY:
2002.
Up through 2002.
22
that exist here, in fact the evidence that has come in, was
23
24
Dr. Hovind and CSE operated under him, and so they received
25
6
8:04AM
1
2
defense.
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
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11
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14
I don't know.
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16
17
THE COURT:
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19
MR. BARRINGER:
20
All right.
Thank you.
21
THE COURT:
Either way.
22
MR. BARRINGER:
23
THE COURT:
24
think that's what you told me -- if Mrs. Hovind does not elect
25
7
8:05AM
MR. BARRINGER:
THE COURT:
4
5
Yes.
MS. HELDMYER:
I'm not.
THE COURT:
room.
scheduled.
MS. HELDMYER:
10
11
better.
12
that we'll be able to get done with this in time for that.
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14
15
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and cash.
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19
jurors know this person her name is Jennifer Johnson and she
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21
We are going to be
22
THE COURT:
Thank you.
23
24
25
8
8:07AM
been relayed relating to Mr. Stoll and his statements are not
10
11
state of mind.
12
Also, I would find that they are not hearsay under 801
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14
15
servant of Mr. Hovind and that were made within the scope of
16
17
in the trial thus far for me to conclude that Mr. Stoll did
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24
Ministries.
25
9
8:09AM
MR. RICHEY:
there.
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
All right.
I still have not received the additional
10
it this morning.
11
12
THE COURT:
13
MS. HELDMYER:
14
15
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19
morning.
20
have had with Mr. Richey, that Mr. Richey was going to call
21
22
I left
23
24
25
10
8:11AM
Obviously, he is here.
remember once, but I could be wrong, and we'll have that answer
very shortly.
10
THE COURT:
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12
13
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15
MS. HELDMYER:
But it
16
17
time lag, but I'll cross that bridge, I suppose, when we come
18
to it.
19
THE COURT:
All right.
20
21
All right.
22
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25
11
8:12AM
legal duty.
language is there now, but I think I can make that more clear
willfulness.
10
11
12
13
14
instruction.
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20
appropriate here.
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22
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25
MR. RICHEY:
that?
THE COURT:
made thus far in the case, in the trial, is on the record and
12
8:14AM
preserved.
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
Thank you.
On the -- let me back up.
10
11
12
13
prosecutions.
14
Congress
15
16
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19
one can draw from that is that Congress clearly intended for
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25
requirements.
13
8:16AM
5
6
7
8
9
MR. BARRINGER:
this.
THE COURT:
already argued.
MR. BARRINGER:
10
THE COURT:
11
MR. BARRINGER:
All right.
But with respect to the reporting
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13
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19
concept of knowledge?
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5313
14
8:17AM
one out.
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11
THE COURT:
Ms. Heldmyer?
12
MS. HELDMYER:
13
14
States would urge the Court to stick with the pattern jury
15
16
giving.
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18
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20
United States urges the Court just to follow the pattern jury
21
instruction.
22
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25
THE COURT:
And the
argument.
MR. BARRINGER:
15
8:19AM
customers."
10
11
has, which fits with what they are trying to do for purposes of
12
statute.
13
14
15
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18
THE COURT:
19
MR. RICHEY:
All right.
Thank you.
20
briefly, and I may be jumping ahead a little bit, but I'll try
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25
16
8:20AM
prove that they had actual knowledge of the law that was
violated.
In addition to that --
THE COURT:
I disagree.
which is not even a tax case, such as we have here, and it's a
10
line in the case that references Cheek, but Cheek doesn't refer
11
12
13
duty.
14
the pertinent legal duty, not knowledge that, you know, I, the
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17
MR. RICHEY:
18
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20
THE COURT:
21
MR. RICHEY:
It
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25
17
8:22AM
Cheek -- and they cited Ratzlaf on page 149 and Cheek at page
refers" -- and that was citing Brian at 194 and 195 -- "cases
in which Brian refers are cases in which the Supreme Court read
the element that the actual knowledge of the law into complex
duties."
8
9
It doesn't
10
11
12
13
14
principle."
15
16
willfully provision.
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18
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21
THE COURT:
22
MR. RICHEY:
23
THE COURT:
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25
offense?
MR. RICHEY:
I can't
18
8:24AM
remember now.
THE COURT:
All right.
10
11
statute.
12
13
requirement, but does not need to prove also that the defendant
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MR. BARRINGER:
17
THE COURT:
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THE COURT:
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22
I apologize.
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Thank you.
this morning?
MS. HELDMYER:
19
8:26AM
interested.
THE COURT:
Yes.
MS. HELDMYER:
57.
cited the Neff case with approval, even after the amendments in
1995.
10
11
three tax court decisions from 2005 and 2006 and then an
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13
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17
Westlaw 2560987.
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19
I've got
And Saxon,
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
THE COURT:
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25
All right.
Thank you.
20
8:28AM
THE COURT:
All right.
recess and the jury will be brought in and then I'll come back
in.
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
Good morning.
THE WITNESS:
10
THE COURT:
11
Yes, ma'am.
Mr. Richey, you may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
12
BY MR. RICHEY:
13
Q.
Good morning.
14
A.
Good morning.
15
Q.
16
17
18
entranceway.
19
MR. RICHEY:
20
admitted.
21
BY MR. RICHEY:
22
Q.
23
Cummings Road?
24
A.
Yes, it is.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:37AM
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is that correct?
21
A.
10
Q.
11
The time we
Okay.
Let me show you OBS-122G.
12
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes, it is.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
the warrant?
21
A.
22
Q.
Now, you said that the search warrant -- that hasn't been
23
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:39AM
22
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
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19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
Q.
Some of it.
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:40AM
23
Q.
tax returns are typically filed, right, that was the day?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And the documents that we see here that have been admitted
into evidence, that was only part of what you obtained that
And did -- and again, this was April 14th, the day before
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
documents.
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24
program.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:42AM
Q.
24
Okay.
Also at this time, you also had other agents assisting in
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
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11
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with.
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18
19
20
21
22
Q.
Okay.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:43AM
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
for her.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
were questioned, did they have any guns or weapons with them?
A.
Q.
On their person?
A.
No, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
14
wouldn't cooperate?
15
A.
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17
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19
obstruction.
20
Q.
21
He
We
Okay.
And then there were also individuals that were held that
22
23
24
dropped them off and they were also detained; is that correct?
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:45AM
26
A.
persons who were, like everybody else, we didn't know who was
who were identified, and we asked if they worked there and once
else.
Q.
them, right?
A.
Okay.
We identified
Interrogation is a
10
custodial term.
We
11
12
13
Q.
14
she had to either answer then or she had to be taken before the
15
judge to answer?
16
A.
17
18
have my notes.
19
Q.
20
was she?
21
A.
I disagree.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
her?
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
Isn't it true Diane Cooksey -- that she said she was told
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:46AM
27
And were you there watching each officer as they did the
questioning?
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
11
attention to that.
12
Q.
13
Okay.
Now, with the documents, then, that were seized -- I mean,
14
15
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18
A.
19
Q.
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21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:48AM
28
A.
Q.
A.
But the documents that you did retrieve that were not
As,
10
Q.
11
years?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
checks made out to CSE that were uncashed and you still have
15
possession of those?
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
warrant, that typically, you may or may not know what happens,
20
right?
21
22
23
A.
24
yes, sir.
25
Q.
I mean, you knew there were guns there at the Hovind -Did you know beforehand that the
And so isn't it true that when you come in, you really want
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:49AM
29
to make sure that you and every one associated with you are
A.
Of course.
Q.
injured, correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
18
19
Q.
20
number of times you did not -- or you did things that you
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22
A.
23
to.
24
25
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:51AM
30
Q.
he, again, challenge your authority that you didn't have the
authority to be there?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Okay.
Okay.
11
And when you met with Mr. Hovind that morning, did
12
into evidence.
13
BY MR. RICHEY:
14
Q.
15
16
document?
17
MS. HELDMYER:
18
MR. RICHEY:
19
THE WITNESS:
Did you
20
me.
21
BY MR. RICHEY:
22
Q.
Okay.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:52AM
A.
Q.
A.
documents.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
Q.
So that particular day when you met Dr. Hovind, you said
11
12
13
freedom to roam around, but you did allow that to Dr. Hovind
14
15
A.
16
17
allowed him as we made our first contact and entry into the
18
19
20
21
31
I received a lot of
No, it wouldn't.
22
23
24
date.
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:54AM
32
So one of the things that you did was also allowed him to
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And you also had a few conversations with him, albeit brief
or whatever?
A.
Q.
10
agents there?
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
to say, then, that the reason why you did that is because you
15
16
17
18
A.
No, sir.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
And then -- but if you had thought that you were in danger
22
23
you have?
24
A.
25
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:56AM
33
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
A.
You say he was -- I'm sorry, what did you say that he was
10
Woods.
11
12
which time Mr. Hovind was given the option that he was no
13
14
15
Q.
Okay.
16
A.
17
18
problem.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
No, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Okay.
At
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:57AM
34
Now, one of the things that you said that you were to
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
If having cash --
10
crime?
11
A.
12
13
14
the search warrant, that the employees were being paid in cash,
15
16
being withheld, that money was being taken out of the bank on a
17
regular basis.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
8:59AM
35
currency, but you said that it wasn't until you determined that
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
saying?
14
tax crime?
15
A.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
like that where they have to have a fairly large amount of cash
22
23
24
A.
25
activities.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:00AM
36
what most businesses would have, bank bags with register cash
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
So the bank bags that you found, you left that cash?
There were
10
11
Hovind's desk.
12
Q.
13
14
location?
15
A.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
25
A.
No.
Okay.
Did you actually take the cash that was found and
Well, isn't it true that you took the currency from the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:02AM
Okay.
37
Q.
decided that you would take the 42,000, but leave the other
A.
warrant.
When I saw the large amounts of cash and I saw where the
Okay.
I made a phone
10
Q.
And can you tell me, then, you said that it was
11
12
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
And isn't it true that Mr. Hovind informed you that you
15
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:05AM
38
for redetermination --
THE COURT:
This notice
10
11
MR. RICHEY:
12
BY MR. RICHEY:
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
case.
18
THE COURT:
19
MR. RICHEY:
20
BY MR. RICHEY:
21
Q.
22
taxpayer fails to do so, the IRS may collect the tax through
23
24
distraint."
25
If the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:06AM
39
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
the IRS the ability to seize the assets of taxpayer and sell
The Supreme Court has held that the exercise of these powers is
10
11
12
13
14
collection of taxes."
15
The
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
regarding prior actions that Mr. Hovind had taken, and based on
20
those actions, you believed that he would not comply with you;
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:07AM
Q.
correct?
A.
Q.
was?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
to determine that Mr. Hovind would not comply with what you
10
A.
11
yes.
12
Q.
13
40
Okay.
And then this continues on, "The Supreme Court has noted
14
15
16
Court held that the IRS could not make a forced entry on to the
17
18
order.
19
20
In GM Leasing, the
"In some limited circumstances, the IRS will levy upon the
21
22
23
above.
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:09AM
41
challenge."
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
8
9
This
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
possession?
14
A.
No, sir.
15
Q.
16
go?
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
IRS office.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
secure.
25
Q.
Where did it
But you were told that you could keep it there at your
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:10AM
42
office?
A.
Q.
Were you told that you could keep it there or was that just
A.
Q.
Okay.
correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
the search warrant for prior years, prior to the years charged
14
15
a notice was delivered to Mr. Hovind and liens filed on all his
16
17
again, conceal his assets and move them out of the reach of the
18
government.
19
Q.
20
safe, you thought that he could go in there and reach that and
21
22
23
A.
24
25
of things, that cash was just but one part of the jeopardy --
Okay.
In June, a jeopardy
No, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:12AM
43
what was in jeopardy was all of the property that he was trying
reason, that's why the lien was filed on all the properties.
Q.
Okay.
afraid that other property would be lost and that would be the
10
11
A.
12
13
14
names, and there was concern by the civil side -- this is not
15
16
that were working the case, that referred the case, based upon
17
18
disposed of.
19
20
21
in cash.
22
23
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:13AM
44
jeopardy.
Q.
few minutes ago you said that you didn't have anything to do
you authorized it, because you had put a freeze on the civil
proceedings.
Okay.
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:15AM
Okay.
45
Q.
correct?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Q.
So yesterday when you said that the civil -- that all civil
10
that freezes when you put a freeze on, then that wasn't true,
11
then?
12
A.
13
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
A.
18
Q.
Right, because you were afraid that Mr. Hovind would get
19
rid of all the property that's there, the houses and the
20
property, and sell all that off and you were afraid that he
21
could take the $42,000 cash in your safe, that's why you needed
22
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
25
that Mr. Hovind would remove all the property and you listed
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:16AM
A.
safe.
Q.
Okay.
6
7
Honor.
8
9
46
THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. RICHEY:
10
Q.
11
12
13
MS. HELDMYER:
14
15
THE COURT:
16
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
The cash, once we had a chance -- once
17
the jeopardy assessment had been done and there was a jeopardy
18
19
20
21
22
and a revenue officer who did the jeopardy assessment and had
23
the jeopardy, unsealed the box, determined that the cash was
24
still in the original packaging and took the cash to the bank
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:18AM
47
the assessment and a receipt was prepared and all these things
Q.
A.
collection effort.
Q.
Okay.
So you
10
A.
11
Q.
So you didn't need the cash any longer for your criminal
12
13
A.
14
still have documentation that the cash was there, and it's
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
next to him.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
Tax due and owing that -- did you review that whole process
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:19AM
48
given to him.
Q.
A.
threats.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
open things and do things because you didn't want to shed bad
22
light on the IRS and you didn't think that there was any danger
23
in that, but now you're saying that you did feel threatened on
24
25
A.
Okay.
Of
Now,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:21AM
49
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Certainly not.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
22
23
cash.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
At any time that you've ever met with Mr. Hovind, did he
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:22AM
50
Q.
A.
He didn't elaborate.
Q.
Okay.
threatening you?
A.
Did he
10
about.
11
Q.
12
we all heard that yesterday and your threat there was that he
13
read in the Bible that David prayed to God that he would smite
14
15
praying to God and God is going to hear that and smite you?
16
A.
No, sir.
17
Q.
Well, there was one other occasion when Dr. Hovind went to
18
your office, and he said I'm going to pray -- you know, "I pray
19
for you," and didn't you, in fact, say, or the other agent
20
21
A.
22
23
24
during the same conversation that, that God knows how to deal
25
-- "I've read the Bible and God knows how to deal with people
He
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:24AM
51
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
you were sworn in to say was that you would tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, right?
Now, when you were sworn in to tell the truth, part of what
10
MS. HELDMYER:
11
THE COURT:
Sustained.
12
BY MR. RICHEY:
13
Q.
14
that as a threat?
15
A.
No, sir.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
TEC-9 machine pistol, the SKS sub machine gun, the pistols, and
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:25AM
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
52
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
direct connection to God and God will answer his prayer on you,
14
right?
15
MS. HELDMYER:
16
THE COURT:
Sustained.
17
BY MR. RICHEY:
18
Q.
19
these were some of the weapons that you found; is that correct?
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
correct?
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:27AM
53
A.
Homeland Security.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And after you called ATF, they sent an agent out; is that
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
And the agent found that these were not illegal weapons; is
11
that correct?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
correct?
21
A.
22
Q.
But last time you said, at first, you didn't know if it was
23
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:29AM
54
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
You can see it by the picture there, sir, the way it was
Q.
The rounds around the cylinder, this is how you found it?
A.
It was
10
Q.
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
One of the other things that you had mentioned was that the
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
And you said that was one of the largest seizures you had
21
ever had?
22
A.
23
24
data.
25
Q.
What I was told by our computer people was that was one of
Was that because of all the graphics and videos and things
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:30AM
55
A.
Q.
A.
them.
Q.
Oh, okay.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
13
sure we'll all be shocked judgement day to see all the souls
14
that were saved and lives that were fired up for the Lord
15
16
17
18
that the work that they were doing there was for God?
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
I'm
22
23
24
growing staff.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:32AM
56
Is that correct?
A.
Q.
And one of the documents that we saw that you came across
A.
Q.
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
12
tempers.
13
out for Satan to try to cripple our ministry or our people any
14
way he can.
15
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
21
asked them their wages, what they were paid, who their
22
supervisor was.
23
24
we asked them have they personally filed income tax returns and
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:34AM
57
there.
Q.
you, in your meeting prior to going there, sat down and said
okay, these are the questions that we're going to ask the
A.
Okay.
Had
10
11
use.
12
questions.
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And did you keep those in your possession after they were
19
taken?
20
A.
21
22
23
memorandums.
24
Q.
25
A.
No, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:36AM
58
Q.
Did you tape record any of the conversations that you had?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
And you said you, yourself, made some notes later on;
A.
some after, some in the midst, just depending, but, yes, I made
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
have heard.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
today?
20
A.
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
Okay.
Okay.
And another document that you looked at was PR-4.
Can you
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:38AM
59
A.
Q.
And this was also something that was retrieved during the
search warrant?
A.
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
correct?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
And then No. 5, it says, "This one thing I do, whatever you
14
do for the Lord, work to do your best, take pride in your work.
15
If you're growing off the drive or pack orders, see how fast
16
you can do it. Try to break the record so you can get more done
17
18
Someday you will have others working for you, fixing your house
19
20
21
Okay.
Is that correct?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
ministry?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:39AM
A.
Q.
Okay.
missionaries?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
60
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
12
your feet before you track dirt in on the carpets and floors.
13
14
15
Please check
Yes, sir.
16
MS. HELDMYER:
17
THE COURT:
18
19
20
the objection.
21
BY MR. RICHEY:
22
Q.
23
said?
24
MS. HELDMYER:
25
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:41AM
61
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
A.
Q.
Certainly.
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
your time, energy and talents for the Lord here at CSE."
13
And then another document was PR-7, and this, you also
Is that correct?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
17
18
all want to see some reward for our labors down here on Earth.
19
20
21
22
deserves a raise.
23
24
25
hire.'"
We really want
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:42AM
62
And you recall Diane Cooksey, her testimony that she talked
about that this was the first time that she had ever worked in
that?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
you know?
A.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
MS. HELDMYER:
12
THE COURT:
13
14
MS. HELDMYER:
Yes.
15
16
17
18
and that's just not the case, and it's not the law.
19
20
21
22
line of questioning.
23
MR. RICHEY:
And I
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:44AM
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
63
THE COURT:
ministry did not have to pay taxes, he didn't pay taxes because
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
10
11
12
13
14
MS. HELDMYER:
15
16
THE COURT:
It's only
Thank you.
All right.
17
BY MR. RICHEY:
18
Q.
19
a document that you saw and admitted through you a week and a
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
warrant?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:46AM
A.
is.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
correct?
64
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
your testimony?"
14
15
unfinished and I try to use the gifts that God has given me to
16
17
Is that correct?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
And then it says, "Can you tell us why you would like to
20
21
22
23
24
25
Correct?
That is something I
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:47AM
65
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
And down here, for example, No. 5, "How did you hear
10
11
No. 10, "How often do you attend and how long have you been
going there?"
12
Are those typical questions that you see when people apply
13
for jobs?
14
A.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
computer?
17
A.
18
Q.
Certainly.
19
A.
No, sir.
20
21
residence of 29 Cummings.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
someone else?
And then also Exhibit PR-17, did this come from the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:49AM
A.
Hovind.
Q.
66
Okay.
And at the bottom here, it says, "Thanks for all you do for
the Lord.
would be minimal.
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
11
graphs discovered?
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
Q.
32A?
17
A.
18
19
Q.
And 32B?
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
24
Q.
Okay, 34A?
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:51AM
Q.
Okay, 34B?
A.
Same location.
Q.
Thirty-five?
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
11
computer.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
67
And 36?
Well, let's look at the first one, 32A, and that says
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
Adventure Land"?
20
A.
No, sir.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:53AM
68
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Adventure Land?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
34B?
12
THE COURT:
13
14
do so.
15
BY MR. RICHEY:
16
Q.
17
A.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
Please
20
accountability," correct?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:55AM
Q.
A.
things as payroll.
staff.
Q.
Okay.
69
Okay.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
17
sir.
18
Q.
19
Okay.
One more thing in this document, what do you understand
20
21
A.
22
responsibilities.
23
Q.
24
A.
Well, where the top of your blue mark is, it says "Jesus."
25
Q.
I don't know.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:57AM
70
says "feel the load -- "feel load for ministry more than
clock."
Is that right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then it says, down lower, "I expect and build your
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
donations.
17
18
19
for: free seminar, tape series, and book package for prisons or
20
missionaries.
21
22
23
24
25
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Expand CSE
Expansion
Schneider - Cross/Richey
9:59AM
71
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
12
13
A.
14
the website.
15
Q.
16
correct?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
And isn't it true that when you seize the funds, the
19
$42,000, that Mr. Hovind told you that those were not his
20
funds?
21
A.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
Okay.
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Do you
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:01AM
Okay.
72
Q.
Mandy Duke?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And the subject is, "I don't like you, you're fired"?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
creation."
12
Is that right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
PR-59.
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:03AM
73
I mean, in
who had worked there and how long they had been there and
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
I have no idea.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Do
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:05AM
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
74
And this was -- and this was also a document you received
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
21
A.
February 4, 1999.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:07AM
process.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
IRS, correct?
A.
75
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
Okay.
20
MR. RICHEY:
21
THE COURT:
22
BY MR. RICHEY:
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:08AM
Q.
76
I'm going to read the third paragraph and you compare and
IRS has an obligation to ensure that the federal tax laws are
enforced."
10
A.
11
12
Q.
Okay.
13
A.
No.
14
15
Q.
16
17
18
26.
19
20
21
22
Yes, sir, and I've read down the next three paragraphs as
Is that correct?
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:10AM
A.
different.
Q.
A.
It said in this one that you just read, it has "it was in
its entirety."
entirety."
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
And this says that there are 60 titles in the United States
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
22
23
positive law."
24
25
77
Okay.
Is that correct?
A.
Of
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:13AM
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
So those ten codes that the IRS refers to, are those the
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
Sustained.
10
MS. HELDMYER:
11
THE COURT:
12
lawyer.
13
BY MR. RICHEY:
14
Q.
Objection, relevance.
Sustained.
15
MS. HELDMYER:
16
THE COURT:
Objection, relevance.
Sustained.
17
lawyer.
18
BY MR. RICHEY:
19
Q.
20
A.
No, sir.
21
Q.
22
23
MS. HELDMYER:
24
THE COURT:
25
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
Overruled.
No, sir.
78
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:14AM
79
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
States Code?
But you don't have any question that the IRS, in fact, told
5
6
MS. HELDMYER:
Honor.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
10
20 minutes.
11
nor with anyone else during the morning recess, and as always,
12
13
14
All right.
15
(Jury out.)
16
THE COURT:
17
clock.
18
19
You're excused.
Please don't
20
THE WITNESS:
21
THE COURT:
22
Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Heldmyer, anything before we return at
10:35?
23
MS. HELDMYER:
24
THE COURT:
25
MR. RICHEY:
Mr. Richey?
No, Your Honor.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:15AM
THE COURT:
(Recess.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
May I approach
THE COURT:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
Yes.
10
11
80
THE COURT:
you could enlarge the area that you're going to be focusing on.
12
13
THE JURY:
14
MR. RICHEY:
Yes.
I'll do that when I read something
15
specific.
16
BY MR. RICHEY:
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
Q.
Correct.
22
A.
23
be the same.
24
Q.
25
differences?
I have OBS-48 up here and you have OBS-11, and we'll just
Is that bottom one, is
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:39AM
81
A.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
Is that correct?
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
20
A.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
23
A.
24
there.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:41AM
attorney, right?
A.
Q.
Yes.
82
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
identified a local law firm here that was paid by one of the
15
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
18
A.
No, sir.
19
Q.
20
to CSE and to others, did you ask him -- I mean, you asked him
21
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
I believe you
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:43AM
83
Now, you said that when you looked at the cash, you looked
A.
that as well.
Q.
In my other experience,
10
11
traced?
12
A.
13
14
primarily, but you always see bills by people who travel a lot,
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
transfer of funds.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:45AM
84
There is not
a library of them.
transactions.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
markings, or I would.
11
Q.
12
A.
No.
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
PR-59 and you saw the date there, July 31, 2003?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
And then I'll show you what was admitted as PR-15A; is that
20
correct?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
Is that correct?
Just on this
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:47AM
85
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
2003, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
isn't that the envelope that you found with the cash in it?
11
A.
12
Q.
And so Amanda Duke's timecard and this time sheet, that was
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
And when you worked with a law firm, do you know if anyone
20
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
THE COURT:
23
BY MR. RICHEY:
24
Q.
25
of this type?
This was a
Sustained.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:49AM
A.
No.
Q.
No?
A.
No.
Q.
agreement?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Okay.
8
9
86
10
11
Is that correct?
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
16
17
to avoid taxes.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:50AM
87
said that you thought that the Court had ordered Mr. Hovind to
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
Q.
14
No, sir.
Okay.
Was he enjoined from creating non-disclosure agreements?
15
A.
16
Q.
Well, you said you're familiar with the court order, does
17
18
A.
19
verbatim.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
I can't recall it
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:52AM
88
document?
A.
Q.
Certainly.
A.
Excuse me.
Q.
Okay.
10
and then under that it says "Glen Stoll, director and general
11
counsel."
12
Is that correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
accounts."
16
Is that correct?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
MR. RICHEY:
22
MS. HELDMYER:
Counsel, OBS-62.
That's okay.
23
BY MR. RICHEY:
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:54AM
89
Is that correct?
A.
Q.
more," correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
law firm that was founded in 1989 as the Family Defense League.
10
11
12
13
14
15
Oklahoma."
16
17
Is that correct?
A.
18
19
documents.
20
THE COURT:
All right.
21
BY MR. RICHEY:
22
Q.
23
that correct?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:57AM
90
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
And was it the first time that you met him when you took
12
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Any doubt in your mind that he was the individual that you
15
16
A.
No, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
And the letter says, "Dear Mr. Adkins, thank you for
19
20
21
22
A.
No, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
10:59AM
91
A.
Q.
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
Sustained.
10
11
A.
12
13
at all.
14
Q.
15
16
noncompliance.
17
18
It's a fine
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:00AM
Okay.
92
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
various occasions.
12
you know?
13
A.
I don't know.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
OBS-97, and this was regarding the summons, and this was one of
16
17
A.
18
Q.
In all the letters that you received from Dr. Hovind, how
19
many times did you send him back a specific response to his
20
questions?
21
22
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
A.
Scott Simpson.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:02AM
93
Q.
Scott Simpson.
A.
Well, for the same feeling I had myself, which was these
were not questions being asked in good faith, and for that
this time, Mr. Hovind had been told by the Eleventh Circuit
hear an answer.
And at
10
Q.
So you had decided and counsel decided that you didn't need
11
12
A.
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
No.
20
21
referring to.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
back, I can tell by the actual ruling if this is the one that I
I don't
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:04AM
94
Q.
Back here?
A.
apologize.
Q.
10
11
12
13
had to pay $11,700 to retrieve his property from the IRS, and
14
15
16
Is that correct?
17
A.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
20
of 11,700.
21
A.
Yes, it was.
22
Q.
It was.
23
correct?
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:06AM
95
Q.
Okay.
A.
vehicles back.
Q.
26 U.S.C. 6020(b)(1).
claims that the IRS violated 26 U.S.C. sections 7429, 7432, and
10
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
Eleventh Circuit.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
22
Q.
Right.
He failed to do --
23
24
does not raise the issue that the IRS violated his right to
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:08AM
abandoned.
96
actions."
A.
I don't know.
10
Q.
11
12
13
Would
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
would not have been able to file all these lawsuits, file the
19
20
knows very well what he's doing, and he's doing things the way
21
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Right.
25
Q.
But the court in every one of those dismissed them for the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:09AM
2
3
97
MS. HELDMYER:
Honor.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
A.
10
11
that's what his purpose was behind every single legal action
12
that he did.
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
18
seize the vehicles, IRS would have never seen any of that
19
money.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
A.
25
Okay.
I believe
Even though the testimony from Agent Powe was that there
That is an assessment.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:11AM
98
Q.
Right, but it's not done with the 30-day notice and 90-day
A.
aren't required.
Q.
matters, correct?
10
A.
11
Q.
I mean the cases that you were named in, the IRS had
12
13
A.
14
15
16
court.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Correct.
21
Q.
22
23
attorney?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Not necessarily.
I mean,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:12AM
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
99
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Where is he located?
10
A.
11
Q.
12
courtroom today?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
Law, 1993"?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
22
A.
Possibly.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Is he here today?
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:15AM
Q.
2:30 p.m. several IRS agents, several TIGTA agents, and two
needed to talk to me for a few minutes, but would not tell Eric
10
Okay.
100
11
A.
12
Q.
13
doing an investigation?
14
A.
No.
15
Q.
16
17
incorrect?
18
A.
There was, sir, yes, sir, but this is not the agent.
19
Q.
20
cell phone 904," -- I'm not going to read it -- "to see what he
21
needed me for.
22
23
agents knew I had guns in the house and felt threatened by me.
24
They apparently told him there had been veiled threats made to
25
the agents.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:17AM
101
way."
out there?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Now, when he said the agents "knew I had guns in the house
10
11
A.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
And so you had been out there, you had seen the guns, you
14
had seen pretty much everything that was there, and two months
15
16
A.
17
Q.
Well it says, "He told me his agents knew I had guns in the
18
19
Is that accurate?
20
A.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:19AM
102
had with Dr. Hovind, some of the things he said, you took as
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
agents in any way, nor made veiled threats, and would never
harm anyone.
10
11
12
13
is that correct?
14
A.
15
Q.
"I told them I hope this investigation would end with them
16
17
18
Land."
19
20
Adventure Land?
21
A.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
24
MS. HELDMYER:
25
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:20AM
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
103
identification from the IRS agents, and I told Chuck Evans and
that a threat?'.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
on Mr. Anderson's cell phone and told him I did not want his
17
18
the ministry that day, had been returned and that I was willing
19
20
21
Do you know, did Mr. Hovind just use the guns with him and
22
23
24
A.
25
Q.
So you didn't ask him that day when you saw all the guns?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:22AM
104
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
10
I never
11
12
because along with them were the TIGTA complaint, and I would
13
have recalled that without a doubt, because that was how I was
14
15
Q.
16
17
MS. HELDMYER:
18
THE COURT:
Sustained.
19
BY MR. RICHEY:
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
papers, and obviously felt no threat, as they did not bring any
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:23AM
105
"I told him that if the IRS agents were calling him now
A.
No, sir.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
Okay.
What about this, he says "answer my simple questions about
14
the law," did you ever send him any copies of the law or
15
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
ensure the safety of the agents and to ensure they did not
22
23
about his organization, since I felt the IRS agents had clearly
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:25AM
106
again that the agents had nothing to fear from me, other than
the legal process, since I felt they had done wrong to our
I assured him
"He said he was glad to hear that and felt that it was very
anyone else."
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
15
A.
Correct.
16
17
MS. HELDMYER:
again?
18
THE COURT:
19
20
MS. HELDMYER:
21
if it were true.
22
jury that that was hearsay, and it was not offered for the
23
24
25
And I
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:27AM
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
107
state of mind.
THE COURT:
All right.
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
Thank you.
All right.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
affidavit.
20
21
22
23
authored.
You are
24
Do you understand?
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:28AM
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
108
And then we saw the documents -Excuse me, Mr. Richey, what was the
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
Thank you.
All right.
apologize.
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
it?
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
If you read the bottom part of one of the last pages there,
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:30AM
109
surroundings.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And so what you were just referring to, that would be this
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
When you said the other officers might act on it, were you
16
concerned that the deputies that had come out on that day, on
17
18
A.
19
officers, okay.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:32AM
110
or fashion.
Q.
in the affidavit, you said he, again -- that he, again, asked
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
On what other
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
As we noted
15
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
in your investigation?
19
A.
20
Q.
Did you, in fact, promise Mr. Adkins that the money that
21
was collected and seized, that you would split that with him;
22
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
25
A.
No, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:35AM
111
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
Mr. Adkins?
A.
I don't know.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, I did.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
It might be.
Yes.
Isn't this document used by the IRS to, in fact, give the
17
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
And did you, in fact, tell him that he would get some?
22
A.
No.
23
him to split, or did I promise that he would get any, and the
24
answer is no.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:37AM
112
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
sent?
14
A.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
I'd be happy to
17
A.
18
19
Q.
And did Maury Adkins also testify before the grand jury?
20
A.
21
Q.
22
the course of this trial, did they testify before the grand
23
jury?
24
A.
25
thus far, except for myself, have ever testified before the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:39AM
113
grand jury.
Q.
you're the only one that's been present in court that actually
A.
Q.
in 2001, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
have been.
13
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
Okay.
I had
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:41AM
114
Q.
But a lot of
Okay.
So then OBS-42, this has already been admitted into
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
10
correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
A.
I don't recall.
19
Q.
20
tell this person they have to come in and testify before the
21
grand jury.
22
announced, correct?
23
A.
24
25
No.
And did you tell them what kind of papers they were
It would depend on
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:43AM
115
the situation.
Q.
was OBS-44.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
for-profit business.
10
11
12
13
14
"I do not see the IRS trying to accuse the Catholic church,
To do less would
15
16
17
18
stewardship.
19
20
21
22
23
24
overstated."
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:46AM
116
firmly believe that if you have all the facts, you will reach a
just conclusion."
8
9
Now, do you know if Mr. Hovind thought that you really just
had a problem with his creation science message?
10
A.
I'm sorry.
11
was. . .
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
of things in it?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yeah.
I don't think I
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:48AM
117
Q.
And the next page, that deals with creation courses and
mostly things about creation, I would guess, and then some kids
A.
stance and his belief that the government has no authority and
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
don't know about 102 and 101 appear to be more on that message.
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
wasn't it?
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:49AM
sir.
Q.
118
Okay.
In the description here, it says, "This course focuses --
intelligent design.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
A.
17
Q.
And didn't he also say that he thought that the IRS was
18
doing wrong?
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
government?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:52AM
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
direction?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
119
Did you also hear him say that he believed that the
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
owes?
17
A.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
don't recall.
24
Q.
25
are the ones responsible for -- I guess how I term it, and you
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:53AM
120
can tell me if I'm inaccurate, that they are the cause of the
problem today?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
And on this page, would you say it's a fair assessment that
10
A.
11
Q.
12
right?
13
A.
14
to be.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
I don't know.
20
A.
21
way.
22
Q.
23
24
message.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:56AM
121
Again, the next page deals with "first love, the Bible and
pitch."
evolution," correct?
A.
It appears so.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
that, correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
Q.
15
says, "This handbook is a must for all who need to know how our
16
17
situations.
18
19
national heritage."
20
It
21
A.
No, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
I have no idea.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
11:59AM
122
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then clear back here, after all those pages, we then
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:01PM
123
Q.
Rich, could you point to me where he comes out against the IRS?
A.
Q.
correct?
A.
Oh, absolutely.
Q.
And you would say the same for In the Minds of Men?
No, sir.
10
A.
11
12
13
the World from the Grave, but In the Minds of Men doesn't come
14
to mind.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
Christ."
20
Did
Seven Men who Rule the World from the Grave, it says, "The
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
And then on the next page, it also lists then three more
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:03PM
124
books, and this is, the first one is In Caesar's Grip, it says,
independence.
A.
Q.
Hush Money, did you read that one or skim through it?
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
Hush Money, a
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:04PM
125
Tracts," correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then "Home School, Youth and Kids," another page under
that, another page under that, and then "Fossils and More," and
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
antigovernment?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
12
antigovernment?
13
A.
14
part of it, but, yes, from everything I've seen, he does not
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
Okay.
THE COURT:
material to cover?
20
MR. RICHEY:
21
THE COURT:
22
23
24
25
your lunch.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:06PM
126
with anyone else during the lunch recess; and also, please
avoid any reports of the trial, should there be any; avoid any
literature about the trial, should there be any; and also very
7
8
(Jury out.)
10
THE COURT:
11
12
MS. HELDMYER:
13
14
15
16
problem.
17
lack of records for the filing of 941's and 940's, which we can
18
19
I have one
20
21
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:08PM
127
defense that there was some other way that either of these
10
I requested,
In other words, if
11
12
13
14
from the defendants that they believe they are not going to be
15
16
17
THE COURT:
18
MR. RICHEY:
Mr. Richey?
Your Honor, I just had requested to look
19
20
21
that some of them are going to certify that Dr. Hovind never
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
It
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:10PM
128
question.
MR. RICHEY:
That's the
of my head is the fact that some 1099s are reported, but again,
my case is not about his personal income tax, and I'm not going
8
9
10
THE COURT:
11
12
MR. RICHEY:
13
THE COURT:
14
MR. RICHEY:
15
That's kind of
a broad scope.
16
THE COURT:
The question
17
is:
18
19
of any kind?
20
MR. RICHEY:
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:11PM
1
2
MR. RICHEY:
129
no.
THE COURT:
MS. HELDMYER:
I am as to Mr. Hovind.
Obviously, Mrs.
Hovind was part of the business, and I would like the same
THE COURT:
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
10
relevance.
11
12
MR. BARRINGER:
13
14
15
reference that she was part of the business and those esoteric
16
concepts, I've done too many tax cases to know that's not the
17
test for whether or not she had income and whether or not it
18
19
None can.
20
21
It's irrelevant.
The
I've
22
23
was.
24
25
it doesn't apply.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:12PM
1
2
THE COURT:
130
MS. HELDMYER:
I just want at
only about income taxes, but obviously there wasn't a DBA out
10
taxes.
11
THE COURT:
12
13
14
15
exhibits.
16
necessary.
17
MS. HELDMYER:
The only
18
19
20
and they had not notified me of any problems that they were
21
22
23
24
25
I have a number of
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:14PM
131
weeks.
DC for us.
8
9
THE COURT:
10
problems, because not only have you had the exhibits, but I
11
12
13
14
MR. RICHEY:
15
16
prepared.
17
and what was done, that -- you know, we'll see from there.
18
what she's talking about other summary charts, I'm not sure,
19
20
21
22
THE COURT:
23
MR. RICHEY:
24
25
referring to.
But
I don't know.
-- as far as the summary chart, one was
I don't know if that's what she's
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:15PM
1
2
3
THE COURT:
132
We've provided --
10
11
it last week.
12
We created
MR. RICHEY:
13
14
15
testifying can lay the foundation and where they got the
16
17
18
19
20
21
THE COURT:
22
MS. HELDMYER:
My objection will be
The
Ms. Heldmyer?
We'll be asking that they be admitted
23
into evidence and provided to the jury, and we can provide case
24
25
THE COURT:
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:17PM
133
instruction that goes along with summary charts, but they are
MS. HELDMYER:
I just wanted
this afternoon.
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
Anything else?
The only other issue I have is also that
10
11
notes during the -- during various times, one of which was the
12
13
14
THE COURT:
15
MS. HELDMYER:
Ms. Heldmyer?
Your Honor, the rough notes are not
16
17
18
19
between the rough notes and memoranda, they are not entitled to
20
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. RICHEY:
23
24
25
THE COURT:
Mr. Richey?
That's hard to compare rough notes when
Schneider - Cross/Richey
12:18PM
All right.
(Recess.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
9
10
134
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
11
12
13
correct?
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
of time.
20
Q.
21
A.
I don't know.
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:17PM
135
Q.
And then did you say you also went again in 2004 or 2005?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
A.
I believe so.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
resources to spreading the word of God and the truth about his
On page 4,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:20PM
136
hand in creation.
10
Our vision
11
A.
I wasn't.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
14
15
A.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
A.
18
years '89, '90, and '91, and I believe that that is what set up
19
some of the taxes due and owing that were eventually collected
20
on later.
21
22
23
back even in '89, he did have a review by the IRS for his
24
25
Q.
So
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:22PM
137
A.
or the other.
other action.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
It was IRS.
I have
10
spoken over 700 times a year since 1997 and over 900 times in
11
2004.
12
speaking engagements."
13
One of the things that was made mention of, was that -- I
14
15
16
from the recording that Dr. Hovind made mention that part of
17
the things that was seized was his personal calendar or his
18
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
I believe it was
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:24PM
Q.
138
Okay.
And down here, he says, "The point that I hope to convey
have been called by God to preach the word" -- excuse me, "I
have been called by God to preach the truth of the word of God,
10
11
evolution is my calling.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
ministry effectively."
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
23
THE COURT:
24
25
BY MR. RICHEY:
Sustained.
Sustained.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:25PM
139
Q.
A.
Besides?
Q.
Mr. Hovind?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
And that's also where you went and were able obtain most of
12
13
A.
14
there, yes.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
20
ministry."
21
22
that one of your concerns was the transfer of property into the
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:28PM
A.
Q.
Okay.
3
4
140
A.
I attempted to.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
14
Pastor Mooneyhan."
15
16
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
You did.
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
And
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:29PM
141
Baptist Fellowship.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
A.
12
13
Baptist Fellowship.
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
spoke with was Maurice Adkins, who actually resided with Pastor
21
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
The
First of all, you said others told you and now you just
Who are you referring to, these
No, sir.
Afterwards.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:31PM
142
him afterwards.
Q.
A.
having the exact name, like the First Baptist Church of Sitra
Central Florida.
And then I
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
records and everything taken from the search warrant that I had
23
24
25
Okay.
I found no other
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:33PM
143
Q.
A.
problem personally.
Q.
Okay.
I have no
10
Adventure Land and talk to the individuals there, that this was
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:35PM
144
Is that correct?
A.
Q.
into the classroom, I can only conclude that this grand jury
10
11
enforcement division.
"Mr. Schneider, it seems, is on a personal crusade or jihad
12
13
14
the tax.
15
16
17
18
19
20
and could not exist since neither the church, nor I, are not
21
22
In short, it appears to be a
Down here at the bottom, he says, "I don't recall how many
23
letters were sent back and forth between myself and the
24
25
not hear from them until I got a call on February 16, 1996 from
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:37PM
145
the time, but when I arrived home I worked at getting the cars
ministry who knew a lot about the IRS and had seen some of
10
11
'Brother Hovind, you need your cars back, even though you are
12
100 percent right, it will take you years to fight them and get
13
them back.
14
returned.'
15
I will pay the money for you and get your cars
"So he paid the $10,000 and had the cars returned, and I
16
did not hear from the Internal Revenue Service for several more
17
years."
18
Now, you recall the document that we looked at, the letter
19
that was sent from the IRS OBS-11 and 48 told them to go to, to
20
21
22
23
that?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
Do you recall
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:38PM
146
They each wrote back lengthy letters, about ten pages each,
I can
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
14
THE COURT:
15
16
THE WITNESS:
17
MR. RICHEY:
18
19
THE COURT:
20
MR. RICHEY:
No, it hasn't.
Oh, it hasn't.
21
BY MR. RICHEY:
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
He is an attorney, is
I know one of
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:40PM
147
Q.
agent?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
was shocked that someone in the IRS had lied to the IRS
12
13
14
been to the Virgin Islands and sure don't mine coal there, but
15
16
for years."
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
22
looked at.
23
A.
I know there were several that were asking for that, yes.
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:42PM
148
the year 2002 when I began receiving letters from the IRS
again.
10
anyone else from the IRS, I considered the matter closed and
11
went about preaching the Gospel as I had been doing for many
12
years."
13
THE COURT:
14
BY MR. RICHEY:
15
Q.
16
17
just read?
18
MR. RICHEY:
19
THE COURT:
Yes.
Okay.
20
BY MR. RICHEY:
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
He just
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:43PM
149
THE COURT:
you are not to take these statements for their truth, do you
understand?
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
7:30 a.m. I was preparing for staff devotions when IRS Special
All right.
Go ahead.
10
County officers.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
an illegal search that you are asking for, and I do not grant
19
20
21
22
you don't let him search these buildings, I will have to arrest
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:45PM
150
hold services and devotions while the IRS agents began taking
them out one by one for questioning and began searching the
property."
10
11
12
A.
Sure.
13
Q.
You believed that you were coming there -- well, you came
14
15
authority, correct?
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
search.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Of course.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:46PM
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
151
Sustained.
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
But it's clear that Mr. Hovind believed that you were there
So he
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
Okay.
16
Okay.
Now, he mentions here that you took 16 boxes, but you said
17
18
A.
19
locations.
20
Q.
21
22
is that correct?
23
A.
I have no idea.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
that correct?
And then it says here that you took, as well, the entire
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:48PM
A.
Correct.
Q.
152
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
particular ones, one for $50,000 and later, another one for
that?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
And based on that, then, you then followed that and saw
12
13
that right?
14
A.
15
16
Yes, sir.
MR. RICHEY:
17
THE COURT:
18
BY MR. RICHEY:
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:53PM
153
A.
Yes.
Q.
2000."
8
9
I would
10
property?
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
A.
14
haven't viewed any other receipts, and I did look through them,
15
16
Q.
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:56PM
A.
If I may refer.
Q.
Certainly.
A.
INC?
Q.
INC-180A.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
154
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
they would have all been compiled together because I was very
23
24
25
I don't know.
So was
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:58PM
155
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
But you don't recall there being checks made out to CSE
A.
10
coins.
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
that, you don't know if you came across those two items?
16
A.
17
I went through.
18
19
20
Q.
Okay.
So if I came across
I'm saying those two items were not in close proximity when
If it was related to that item and it was
Okay.
21
22
today and last time, we don't know what this letter says; is
23
that correct?
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
1:59PM
156
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
Yes, sir.
Okay.
And this right here, it says, "This is important tax
11
12
Service.
13
14
15
reported."
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
No, sir.
23
MR. RICHEY:
24
here?
25
BY MR. RICHEY:
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:02PM
157
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And just a few moments ago in your testimony, you said that
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
Is that correct?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
a document that Mr. Hovind or the defense said, here, you use
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:03PM
an exhibit, correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
And then on the back, again, this has various dates and
lists Dr. Hovind as the speaker and then lists the places,
correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
158
12
that, you determined that almost all of these dates were on the
13
weekends.
14
15
A.
16
general conclusion.
17
18
as well.
19
Q.
20
weekend?
21
22
Okay.
MS. HELDMYER:
irrelevant.
23
THE COURT:
24
BY MR. RICHEY:
25
Q.
Overruled.
How about these dates, did you review these dates to see if
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:06PM
A.
Internet.
Q.
court, correct?
8
9
159
MS. HELDMYER:
Honor.
10
THE COURT:
Sustained.
11
BY MR. RICHEY:
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
changes.
17
18
given above.
19
20
So were you familiar with that, that Dan Woods was also a
21
speaker?
22
A.
23
him to start that and that he had done a little bit himself,
24
yes, sir.
25
Q.
I was familiar with the fact that they were trying to teach
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:07PM
160
any income derived from these services is not derived from any
trade or business."
8
9
MS. HELDMYER:
So
10
THE COURT:
11
BY MR. RICHEY:
12
Q.
13
Code," correct?
Sustained.
14
MS. HELDMYER:
15
THE COURT:
Sustained.
16
BY MR. RICHEY:
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
And then he says, "I was also advised that although IRC
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:09PM
161
3101 (a)."
letter to Mr. Hovind telling him that this was just incorrect?
A.
with.
believed it was not a good faith basis that he was making those
statements.
10
Q.
11
Again, I
Okay.
And then he says, "Since I am a minister, have taken a vow
12
13
14
tax.
15
16
MS. HELDMYER:
17
THE COURT:
18
19
THE COURT:
20
made of his intent and his intent as a tax protester, and this
21
22
going to allow you to ask the questions so you can pursue this
23
line of questioning.
24
25
THE COURT:
All right.
So I'm
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:11PM
162
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
MR. RICHEY:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
the exception.
OBS-44, page 7.
And then, he also looks at 3401, and again, points out that
So Dr. Hovind believes -- or is it your
10
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
believes?
15
A.
16
17
tells me.
18
He's been told numerous times by the courts, by the IRS, that
19
20
Q.
21
that right?
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
taxes?
I know, generally,
That's what he
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:14PM
163
A.
He does not pay his -- he has not filed income tax returns.
Q.
But you're not saying that he doesn't pay like his gas tax
A.
Q.
store and purchase things, they can show that, hey, we're a
church and we don't want to pay this tax, and they will
actually not -- I mean, they are exempt from paying it, correct
10
11
12
MS. HELDMYER:
relevance.
13
THE COURT:
14
BY MR. RICHEY:
15
Q.
16
A.
17
all.
18
19
20
Q.
21
When it comes to state sales tax, the state has the right
Okay.
After he cites these provisions, then he says, "Since CSE
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:15PM
164
8
9
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
harassing, correct?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
And just to clarify then, the very first time you went out
15
there, you had not made contact before, right, you just showed
16
up unannounced?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And the same with the warrant, he didn't know you were
19
20
A.
21
sir.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
And the same for when the vehicles were taken back in '96
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:17PM
165
Q.
And when you went out -- and again, if you can clarify for
me, I'm not sure if I recall, but you say that you went out and
correct?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
I believe Agent Tracy Preisser from our office was with us,
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
residence.
22
Q.
23
what occurred?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
Well, only two of us, two agents, Special Agent Evans and
But you were able to observe from where you were seated
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:18PM
166
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
that Special Agent Evans and Burgess, and then Randy Wright,
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
Okay.
And did they speak with Mr. Hovind at that time?
11
A.
12
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
15
Q.
And you said -- and I believe this is what you said, but
16
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
It was
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:20PM
167
correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
And this first one, the one we just looked at OBS-44, how
A.
Q.
We look at OBS-45.
affidavit to you."
10
It
11
A.
12
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
A.
No, sir.
17
Q.
18
A.
No, sir.
19
Q.
20
investigated for?
21
22
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:22PM
168
A.
crimes.
Q.
were saying?
A.
Q.
Right.
A.
Okay.
But what I'm asking is, is that what you told him
10
11
12
Q.
13
Okay.
Well, here, he says, "Despite my numerous written
14
15
16
17
18
19
investigating.
20
did you?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Well, sir, he didn't really give us much of a choice -But, like I said, it was generally --
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:23PM
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
No.
8
9
THE COURT:
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
17
THE COURT:
18
BY MR. RICHEY:
19
Q.
Thank you.
And --
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. RICHEY:
22
here.
23
the break.
25
from the bench and put them back on the exhibit table.
16
24
Yes, it has.
BY MR. RICHEY:
10
15
169
THE COURT:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:29PM
170
Q.
Now, you had mentioned that at one time when you met with
that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
9:00 p.m.
10:30, 11 o'clock?
10
A.
11
Q.
And he asked you, then, how much longer you would be there?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
And then you told him not to lie to a federal agent, that
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
No, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:31PM
171
A.
In person.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
A.
or two.
10
Q.
11
Within a week.
Isn't it true that he sent to you a letter a couple of days
12
after the warrant asking you to return the money, that it was
13
14
A.
15
16
Q.
Okay.
17
And you said that you had asked them direct questions, but
18
you got no answers and that was in reference to the church and
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
Okay.
24
present?
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:32PM
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
A.
Law.
Q.
there?
A.
172
10
Q.
And you said that he had sent you materials, when you say
11
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
that correct?
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
Mr. Hovind had been sending me, and when I showed him one of
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:34PM
173
protester-type material.
Q.
A.
Q.
And this was one letter that you had received or something
So that's
10
A.
11
12
13
copies of, you know, 1800 law and things like this.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
23
A.
My memorandum.
24
Q.
25
A.
But I believe
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:35PM
174
floating around.
Q.
Okay.
Now, you had also looked at a document, I believe it was
OBS-123, that said that, "I am not -- it's from Mr. Hovind
Florida."
10
A.
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
Mr. Hovind -- or, well, it's Mr. Hovind's belief, then, that
16
17
18
A.
19
20
argument.
21
Q.
22
23
correct?
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
I believe I know.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:37PM
175
antigovernment?
A.
antigovernment.
Q.
A.
letter for people to go look about why you don't have to pay
Well, that was a class teaching and video No. 5 did contain
10
income tax.
11
12
13
14
15
antigovernment in nature.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
looked at that Mr. Hovind thought you were trying to stop his
21
message on creationism?
22
A.
23
24
25
don't believe there was a good faith belief that what we were
And so you also believe that the court filings that he made
Again,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:39PM
176
Q.
A.
Attorney's Office.
see, all those affidavits to the grand jury were all copied to
You said that you had received some of the videos and
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
A.
15
of various items.
16
Q.
17
you said?
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Q.
In reference to, then, the TIGTA, you said you saw the
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:41PM
177
A.
Q.
A.
I believe so.
Q.
Okay.
was?
A.
Q.
Sure.
A.
10
11
MR. RICHEY:
12
MS. HELDMYER:
13
14
MR. RICHEY:
15
MS. HELDMYER:
16
BY MR. RICHEY:
17
Q.
18
investigations?
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
regarding the money that was taken and another one occurred
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:43PM
A.
Q.
A.
complaint.
178
10
complaint.
11
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
Okay.
But as far as you know, all of these TIGTA investigations
18
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
No, sir.
23
Q.
Okay.
24
A.
25
MR. RICHEY:
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:45PM
179
THE COURT:
what you have to do, and I'll see how long it takes.
10
MR. RICHEY:
11
THE COURT:
12
MR. RICHEY:
13
graph or a chart.
15
THE COURT:
ago.
17
MR. RICHEY:
find 194.
19
20
I don't
MS. HELDMYER:
18
Come on and do
194, INC-194.
14
16
THE WITNESS:
21
THE COURT:
22
BY MR. RICHEY:
23
Q.
24
found there?
25
A.
Thank you.
Exhibits 193, 194, 195, 196, are these exhibits that you
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:49PM
180
Q.
Sure.
A.
different locations.
Q.
the center?
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
A.
20
21
22
23
24
balance."
25
Q.
I mean, the
I don't know what the basis was for the background of this,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:51PM
181
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Did
10
11
A.
12
13
14
amounts.
15
Q.
16
17
18
and there were at least one, I believe it was Document 109 that
19
20
A.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
I'm not --
23
at Law?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:53PM
182
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
with Jo Sweet?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
You had indicated that you did talk with Maury Adkins a few
Okay.
10
times?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
made out to, did you go and investigate any of them, talk to
15
them?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
No.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
I mean, they
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:54PM
183
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
people.
bring a lot of the workers and employees of CSE into the grand
jury, but they were all advised that they had -- in my belief,
Law -- that they all ought to plead the fifth and nobody
We attempted to
10
11
12
13
14
And we had
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
could grab the individuals who were coming there, put them in a
22
room, and then talk to them without any interference, that way
23
you could also go in and get the documents you needed without
24
any interference --
25
A.
Okay.
It
So that's why you felt like the only way you could
No, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:56PM
184
Q.
-- is that right?
A.
No.
Q.
Cummings Road on some other day without a warrant and you could
individuals?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
the one I just listed from the courts, from the county, from
10
11
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
But what other documents did you obtain or from what other
14
sources?
15
A.
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
to do.
Did Mr. Hovind ever attempt to help you get public records
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:58PM
185
Q.
quash, and then just not turning over the other documents until
A.
Q.
And then -- so when you came out with the warrant that day
and had the other agents and officers there, and they
questioned the individuals who were present that day, then what
10
talk to them again and Mr. Hovind prevented you from doing
11
that?
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
16
and told them not to talk to you; he got in front of you and
17
18
A.
My --
19
Q.
20
A.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
A.
I'm saying through his actions, that's what the end result
Schneider - Cross/Richey
2:59PM
Q.
A.
Right.
186
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
20
ours."
21
22
23
realize that anyone here will meet with you and do anything the
24
law requires, but this letter will constitute our notice that
25
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:01PM
reporter.
187
So what he's saying, then, is that they will meet, but they
A.
Q.
A.
fact that -- again, it's like his comment, "I will pay any
10
11
Anyone there will meet with you and do anything the law
12
requires.
13
14
I believe he
15
16
17
18
that either.
19
Q.
20
21
on April 14th.
22
that correct?
23
out, right?
24
A.
25
Again, I
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:03PM
188
Q.
an illegal search that you are asking for, and I do not grant
10
11
Isn't that
12
your testimony?
13
A.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
And then this one, that the deputy told him, "Mr. Hovind,
So
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:05PM
189
A.
Q.
8
9
Okay.
And then when you mentioned the first time that he went in
to meet with you and he asked you for your credentials, and you
10
said that you have a little card, and you said you pulled it
11
12
13
you would just say, see here, and wouldn't hand it to him, then
14
15
been said?
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
Hypothetically, sure.
Okay.
Certainly in your testimony, you have made statements about
23
certain things that Mr. Hovind said or that Mrs. Hovind said,
24
25
isn't it true?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:06PM
190
A.
They may.
Q.
And so in all the times you've talked and all the times
they would meet with you, but only if a court reporter was
present?
A.
Again, sir, this letter that was but one small part of it.
The issue is I don't believe
10
there was a good faith basis for them that any of their
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
Isn't it also true, then, that Mr. Hovind believes that you
16
didn't have a good faith reliance on the law, that you were
17
breaking the law when you came out without notifying him prior,
18
when you just walked on and ignored the sign that was there,
19
when you came in and he said that the warrant wasn't valid, I
20
21
22
A.
23
he stated.
24
Q.
25
wrong -- that you and Mr. Hovind, your beliefs are completely
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:08PM
191
A.
Q.
on, if you came and seized property and money that didn't
10
belong to him and came with a warrant that he believed that was
11
12
13
you were breaking the law and doing something wrong, what
14
15
MS. HELDMYER:
16
THE COURT:
Sustained.
17
BY MR. RICHEY:
18
Q.
19
officers that they believed that they were breaking the law,
20
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
THE COURT:
Sustained.
23
BY MR. RICHEY:
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:10PM
192
A.
When you look at the pattern since 1996 of what he's done,
absolutely.
he took.
Q.
your authority and you didn't respond, then what did you
A.
Just
10
11
12
time.
13
Q.
14
A.
15
or heard of any comment from him that he had ever had a problem
16
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
served him.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:11PM
193
Q.
mean, that he wouldn't come in and meet with you and bring you
A.
Q.
But you're not saying that he didn't just ignore you and
A.
8
9
10
THE COURT:
break.
Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be in recess until 3:35.
11
12
anyone else and also don't attempt to form any opinions about
13
14
this time.
15
(Jury out.)
16
THE COURT:
17
18
19
20
21
22
deputy clerk has offered you her time and assistance during
23
24
25
However, we
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:13PM
194
(Recess.)
(Jury present.)
THE COURT:
MR. RICHEY:
10
BY MR. RICHEY:
11
Q.
12
13
14
Don't you think that also had something to do with the fact
15
16
17
A.
No, sir.
18
Q.
No.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
And on June 2nd, 2004, you said that you were sitting in
23
the car and that it was out on the driveway; is that correct,
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:42PM
195
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
windows?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
You were able to hear what they said and that's because
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
you.
15
correct?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
correct?
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
Do you
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:44PM
196
A.
Q.
that when the files were closed, that they found that
A.
10
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
18
19
term it.
20
Q.
21
No.
Okay.
And then looking at Exhibit 246 -- oh, I'm sorry, just as a
22
23
were threatened?
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:46PM
197
with Mr. Hovind, warned him that even veiled threats can result
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
-- to God?
10
And again, the veiled threat went back to the fact that
No?
Okay.
11
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
15
MS. HELDMYER:
16
MR. RICHEY:
17
BY MR. RICHEY:
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:48PM
written requests.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
198
Okay.
10
who requested it, and it lists the date and what he requested,
11
correct?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
Correct.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
And then, OBS-83B, these are also -- this just shows the
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:50PM
199
Is that correct?
A.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
13
Q.
I know that
Okay.
14
And when you entered -- when this was entered into evidence
15
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Okay.
19
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
And then it says, "I certify that the annexed are true
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:51PM
200
pages."
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And then it's signed down here, it says, "By Debra A. Wan,"
but then under there it's "R.L. Commerson," and then it's for
right?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
It says, "This is in
Enclosed
19
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
MR. RICHEY:
22
THE COURT:
23
BY MR. RICHEY:
24
Q.
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:53PM
201
Q.
A.
Q.
which is enclosed.
10
enclosed you will find ten pages of AMDISA, which are all the
11
12
Can you tell me, Agent Schneider, will I find those ten
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
they?
18
A.
19
Q.
20
A.
I have an assumption.
21
22
23
24
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:55PM
202
warrant.
did not keep copies of the printouts that they made from our
computer system.
Q.
They probably
Okay.
Well, certainly some of these for example, the first one we
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
12
13
A.
14
15
Q.
16
17
Isn't it true that on June 3rd, then, that is when the jeopardy
18
assessment was done and the $42,000 was then turned over to the
19
IRS?
20
A.
21
an estimated date that I had given you, and June 3rd sounds
22
23
24
Q.
25
Now, you testified that you went on June 2nd, and there was
As I mentioned, I'm not sure about the June 2nd, that was
Okay.
Isn't it true, though, in the following year, April of
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:57PM
203
actually done?
A.
I have no idea.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
MR. RICHEY:
BY MR. RICHEY:
Q.
10
Exhibit PR-14.
11
12
A.
Okay.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
It looks familiar.
19
MR. RICHEY:
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
I'm
23
THE COURT:
24
BY MR. RICHEY:
25
Q.
All right.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
3:59PM
204
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Is that correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
$42,819.73."
18
19
April 14th?
20
A.
It sounds accurate.
21
Q.
22
23
Is that correct?
24
A.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:01PM
205
this was one column and this would be the other, so zero on
that correct?
A.
Q.
the IRS?
A.
Q.
10
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
You're not disputing that the money that you seized as part
13
14
a crime that you turned over to the IRS on June 3rd, 2004; is
15
that correct?
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
return until April 7th of 2005, with the assessment being done
20
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
25
I recall it being around that date and that was around the
Okay.
Okay.
And in fact, the lawsuits to recover the funds began after
June 3rd, 2004, wherein Mr. Hovind alleged that you stole the
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:02PM
money.
the money over to the IRS, then, that he filed the lawsuit
A.
I don't know.
Q.
MS. HELDMYER:
THE COURT:
206
Sustained.
BY MR. RICHEY:
10
Q.
11
Congress of the IRS because the IRS was alleged to break the
12
13
MS. HELDMYER:
14
THE COURT:
15
BY MR. RICHEY:
16
Q.
17
18
Sustained.
bench, please.
19
20
THE COURT:
21
22
23
24
25
of any of this?
MR. RICHEY:
For what?
How?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:04PM
1
2
MR. RICHEY:
Honor.
3
4
THE COURT:
to convince me otherwise.
MR. RICHEY:
8
9
207
THE COURT:
10
MR. RICHEY:
11
THE COURT:
12
because whether or not Dr. Hovind believed the IRS violated his
13
14
MR. RICHEY:
15
16
lawsuits in redress?
17
THE COURT:
18
ago.
19
they took.
20
21
22
MR. RICHEY:
Honor.
23
THE COURT:
All right.
24
25
THE COURT:
All right.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:05PM
MR. RICHEY:
THE COURT:
MR. BARRINGER:
208
MR. BARRINGER:
THE COURT:
BY MR. BARRINGER:
Q.
10
A.
Good afternoon.
11
Q.
12
13
14
statement?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:07PM
209
Q.
1996?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
She had referenced that there was a CID agent there that
went with her at the time, do you know who that CID agent was?
A.
No.
Q.
that.
10
11
correct?
12
A.
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
21
22
our duties.
23
24
Q.
25
investigation opened?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:08PM
A.
Q.
Okay.
210
situations and I've sat here and you've testified, there's been
a lot of discussion about whether Mr. Hovind and you agree and
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
And with respect to that, you have testified that you have
14
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
been made?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
24
25
And that's been your testimony that you believe threats had
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:09PM
211
Q.
questions.
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
about that.
15
Q.
16
17
Do
Okay.
With respect to this 1996 and the phrase confrontational,
she had asked Mr. Hovind to come in and provide some documents?
18
MS. HELDMYER:
19
THE COURT:
20
THE WITNESS:
Overruled.
I believe she had, yes, sir.
21
BY MR. BARRINGER:
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
He didn't do it, they went back and forth, she decided that
Would that be a fair
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:11PM
212
Q.
A.
there are no returns filed and substitute returns are made, she
Q.
10
A.
11
recall that there was a levy and the vehicles were seized.
12
Q.
13
that time?
14
A.
15
16
made.
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
22
A.
That's my understanding.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I do
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:12PM
Q.
A.
Q.
213
in terms of the IRS all the way back through all these years, I
10
A.
Generally.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
drag a bunch of them out to see what came in through you -- one
21
22
23
A.
Yes, I do.
24
Q.
And there was discussions, both Ms. Heldmyer and Mr. Richey
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:13PM
214
Anti-injunction Act.
A.
Q.
exceptions?
A.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
20
21
Q.
22
Fair enough.
Okay.
So now we'll time jump again to 2001.
There is an initial
23
24
it brought to you for, what type of tax, what type of what was
25
involved?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:15PM
215
A.
for in full.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Let me --
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
possible issue?
16
A.
17
18
19
20
21
following the tax laws, and for that reason, we got it.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:16PM
216
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
first of all?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And you talked -- did you see any tax issues there,
whatever they dealt with, did you see any tax issues there at
the time?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
You also had said that you did not find income tax returns
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
That's not what this case is about, we're not here about
16
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
No, sir.
21
Q.
And we're not here about income taxes for Mrs. Hovind
22
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:17PM
217
A.
recall, on my part.
Q.
10
That was what the initial information led, but when the
Okay.
Now, how long -- first of all, what did you do in the
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
dealing with the FOIA request and how thick those were, dealing
24
25
attachments.
We
And
Now, Mr. Richey was just talking to you a few minutes ago
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:19PM
218
A.
Yes, sir, I don't know how far back it went, but yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
10
11
period?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
In dealing with Mr. Hovind, what was -- what were the RA's
17
18
19
20
21
Mr. Hovind?
22
A.
23
summonses.
24
25
records were obtained, but again, the process got bogged down
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:21PM
219
attempting to quash.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
produce material?
12
A.
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
OBS-records.
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
And you remember Mr. Richey going through and asking you
23
24
25
questions?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:22PM
220
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Again, I'm not going to drag this process out by making you
that is legitimate.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
the summonses?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes, he did.
17
Q.
18
about?
19
A.
20
that I requested.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
24
Q.
And there was one -- was it just one process, one time
25
period of asking for records and that was it, for that period
This is sometime
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:23PM
221
of time?
A.
Q.
A.
don't recall.
Q.
Okay.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
In 1996?
15
Q.
Yes.
16
A.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
21
22
Q.
23
being taken, at some point a payment was made to get the cars
24
back?
25
A.
Okay.
Yes, sir.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:24PM
222
Q.
A.
Q.
from 1996 to 1997 that indicated that Mr. Hovind was, then,
A.
What happened
When Revenue
10
Officer Powe got it, she was assigned a case, however they
11
12
13
they started over for the new years to determine what was going
14
on.
15
16
Q.
17
That's my understanding.
And then
Okay.
Now, do you remember Mr. Beard, the attorney, justice
18
19
testifying?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:26PM
Q.
223
Okay.
to a primary investigation?
A.
it.
10
11
Q.
12
A.
Kent Hovind.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
or -- strike that.
15
16
17
The first time that you met Mr. Hovind was when?
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
Okay.
Now, you didn't see him that day when you were there that
22
23
A.
24
25
saw walk into the house as Mr. Adkins came out to sort of
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:28PM
224
Q.
A.
that's why at the time I wasn't sure exactly who that was.
10
11
Q.
12
Okay.
And dealing with Mr. Adkins, do you know when he
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
August of 2002.
18
Q.
19
Okay.
And along those same lines, do you know when Richard
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Q.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:29PM
225
A.
Q.
A.
CSE, but, yes, that's what I believe Kent Hovind puts forth.
Q.
Again,
10
A.
11
really at CSE.
12
13
that I have from more than just my own personal witnessing and
14
15
truly involved with CSE, and CSE was never truly part of a
16
17
Q.
18
19
Richey?
20
A.
21
22
23
true organization.
24
Q.
25
No, sir.
Yes, sir.
Okay.
You said that you thought there was a time frame when it
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:31PM
226
A.
time he had the battle with the county over building permits,
Q.
I know that Kent Hovind has put forth, starting around the
Okay.
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
16
of Glen Stoll.
17
Q.
18
Washington?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:32PM
227
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
12
to the grand jury, we're not -- as the Court has said, we're
13
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
That Mr. Stoll had been already working with them for three
17
years?
18
A.
19
sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
letter.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
I believed he
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:33PM
228
Q.
A.
time.
Q.
Okay.
Now, you had said that it struck you that Faith Baptist
10
11
12
A.
13
Fellowship.
14
15
16
Q.
17
Okay.
MS. HELDMYER:
May I
18
get permission for Special Agent Evans to step out and retrieve
19
20
THE COURT:
21
MS. HELDMYER:
22
MR. BARRINGER:
23
THE COURT:
24
BY MR. BARRINGER:
25
Q.
Yes, ma'am.
I'm sorry, Mr. Barringer.
Should I continue, Your Honor?
Thank you.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:35PM
229
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
And again, I'm not going to bring the exhibits out, but the
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
17
himself?
18
A.
19
20
21
22
23
24
because, like I said, just to cover all my bases, I put all the
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:36PM
230
Q.
that any of those entities were really anything other than him
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
a couple of ways.
19
20
21
with.
22
23
24
Q.
25
Had you been looking through the garbage, had you been
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:38PM
231
A.
Q.
A.
What is that?
10
Q.
11
A.
C-U-R-T-I-L-A-G-E, I believe.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:39PM
232
A.
observed them pick it up and follow the truck and then took it
from them.
Q.
the property?
A.
Okay.
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
Okay.
And as we said, Mr. Hovind gets the summonses, he had
15
16
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
But this was not like what occurred the first time with
23
24
25
A.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:41PM
233
Q.
A.
When you said the petition to quash was a civil action, I was
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
right?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
It wasn't granted.
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Okay.
It was my
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:42PM
234
A.
Correct.
Q.
investigation?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
of 2003, I believe?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
What were you doing from that point from the end of 2003 to
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
That's how
Is that
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:44PM
right?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
235
A.
Q.
A.
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
released '97 and '98, I believe, and then we picked up the more
18
recent years.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:45PM
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Now, did you bring the ATF agent along with you at that
time?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
236
And you had said there was four, five, six county
10
fairly quickly?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
You had said that you had a belief that there would be guns
13
14
perhaps Mr. and Mrs. Hovind, to find out if they owned any
15
weapons?
16
A.
17
18
19
Q.
20
A.
21
yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
saying?
24
A.
25
Q.
And you knew that before you went there that day?
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:46PM
237
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
talking about?
A.
10
11
12
Q.
13
Okay.
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
19
20
Q.
21
A.
July.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:48PM
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Okay.
238
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
There was
10
semiautomatic pistol.
11
12
13
Q.
Meaning?
14
A.
15
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Pull the trigger, it fires once, and you have to pull the
19
20
semi-automatic rifle?
21
A.
22
first concern was that the functions check that was done on it,
23
24
25
It's called a
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:49PM
239
Q.
A.
No.
automatic.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
rifle?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
The SKS?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:50PM
240
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Those changes affected what you buy and what you can't buy
A.
Yes.
Q.
And then we have that pistol that you call the Mack-9
pistol?
A.
weapons expert.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
A.
No, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
No, sir.
16
Q.
17
accurate, then?
18
A.
19
20
21
22
heard that Mr. Hovind had been firing fully automatic weapons
23
24
25
found.
He never said a
He said a military-style
He said that he had
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:51PM
241
Q.
Arkansas?
A.
Q.
A.
are lots of firing ranges all around the United States that you
10
Q.
11
Okay.
You're there at 7:30 on April 14th, 2004?
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
there?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
ID'd them, asked whether they worked there, asked them some
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:52PM
242
wanted to?
A.
best we could.
There were a
For the
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
place?
14
A.
15
Q.
Your records that you would have taken that day couldn't
16
17
A.
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
I don't know.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:54PM
Q.
A.
Q.
directly to him?
A.
243
In the process of the day, you have said that you handed
10
11
Q.
12
I recall, that Mr. Hovind went and did two things that day, two
13
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
And the second thing you said he did was he came to this
19
20
A.
21
22
affidavit because he was not happy that the affidavit was not
23
24
Q.
25
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:55PM
244
A.
Q.
6
7
Okay.
Now back to the search warrant and at the property, we've
seen pictures.
8
9
MR. BARRINGER:
I'll
10
admitted.
11
BY MR. BARRINGER:
12
Q.
And this is the main house for the Hovinds'; is that right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
18
A.
19
sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Off to the right of the picture, where you can't see, yes,
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:57PM
245
way.
A.
house.
Q.
occurring?
A.
but that's where the staff normally has their staff meetings
Okay.
10
11
releasing them.
12
Q.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
From that room, the gazebo, you can go directly into what's
15
called the bookstore now, that might have been like the weight
16
room then?
17
A.
18
19
was a glassed in weight room that you -- that there was another
20
door.
21
had been glassed in somehow, and from there, you could go into,
22
23
Q.
24
25
Okay.
Going on, heading on farther in terms of this direction on
Schneider - Cross/Richey
4:58PM
246
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
was some seats in the front driveway area that some interviews
10
11
12
There
13
14
agent could pull somebody off to the side and talk to them for
15
a minute.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
office, and there is one where they do the radio broadcast, and
19
it was right there near the front window that's facing out
20
21
22
would be located.
23
24
25
THE COURT:
247
4:59PM
THE COURT:
I'm sorry.
MR. BARRINGER:
THE COURT:
THE COURT:
Do you
Okay.
All right.
10
11
12
13
go tonight.
14
travel, you'll make it for the ghost and goblins, I hope you
15
do.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
the case until you've heard all of the evidence and arguments
25
Also, do
And very
248
5:01PM
Do drive
(Jury out.)
THE COURT:
All right.
MS. HELDMYER:
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
our next witness is Jennifer Johnson and you may want to make
inquiry of the jury.
THE COURT:
I'll do it
All right.
If, by
16
17
thank you.
18
19
20
MR. RICHEY:
21
THE COURT:
22
MR. BARRINGER:
23
THE COURT:
Mr. Barringer?
No, Your Honor.
24
on you today about the exhibits, but I know you know me well
25
249
5:02PM
doing.
that you would gather the exhibits and it just got worse today.
MR. RICHEY:
as you probably can't see, but there were already three binders
THE COURT:
Anyway --
10
11
the recess gather those exhibits that you need, and you can ask
12
permission and keep them there close by, and Ms. Simms will
13
14
15
MR. RICHEY:
16
THE COURT:
17
All right.
18
at 8:00.
That's okay.
I understand.
19
20
--------------------
21
22
23
S/ Gwen B. Kesinger
24
25
_____________________________
Gwen B. Kesinger, RPR, FCRR
Official Court Reporter
11-29-07
________________
Date