cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) i 1 IN THE IOWA DISTRICT COURT FOR POLK COUNTY CHRISTOPHER J. GODFREY, ) ) 3 Plaintiffe, ) Law No. LACL124195 ) 4 vs. ) } 5 STATE OF IOWA; TERRY } BRANSTAD, Governor of } DEPOSITION OF 6 the State of Iowa, ) KERRY KOONCE individually and in his ) 7 official capacity; ) KIMBERLY REYNOLDS, ) 8 Lieutenant Governor of } the State of Towa, ) 9 individually and in her ) official capacity; ) 10 JEFFREY BOEYINK, Chief } of Staff to the ) aL Governor of the State } of Iowa, individually } 32 and in his official ) capacity; BRENNA ) 13 FINDLEY, Legal Counsel } to the Governor of the } 14 State of Iowa, ) individually and in her ) 15 official capacity; ) TIMOTHY ALBRECHT, ) 16 Communications Director } to the Governor of the } 17 State of Iowa, > individually and in his ) 18 official capacity; and } TERESA WAHLERT, ) 19 Director, Iowa ) Workforce Development, } 20 individually and in her } official capacity, ) 21 ) Defendants. ) 22 - THE DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE, 23 taken before Chris A. Quinlin, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of the 24 State of Iowa, commencing at 9:15 a.m., December 22, 2014, at 1820 NW 118th Street, 25 Suite 200, Des Moines, Iowa. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aa 42 13 14 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 2 ARREARA Plaintiff by: Defendants by: State of Iowa by: Also present: cet ROXANNE BARTON CONLIN Attorney at Law ROXANNE CONLIN & ASSOCIATES 319 Seventh Street Suite 600 Des Moines, IA 50309 (515) 283-1111 GEORGE A. LaMARCA Attorney at Law LaMARCA LAW GROUP 1820 NW 118th Street Suite 200 Des Moines, IA 50325 (515) 225-2600 JEFFREY C. BETERZALEK Assistant Attorney General 1305 Bast Walnut Street Second Floor Des Moines, IA 50319 (515) 281-4213 CHRISTOPHER J. GODEREY (via telephone} HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 13 14 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) LNDEX Examination by: Page Ms. contin 4, 186 Mr. bamarca 166 Exhibit Marked 120 8 121 50 122 11s 123 115 HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 4 KERRY KOONCE, called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CONLIN: Q. Tell us your name for the record, please. A. Kerry Koonce. Q. And where do you live? A. Towa. Q. What is your date of birth? A. Q. And your current position? A. Division administrator, communications and labor market information, with workforce development. Q. Division administrator, that's a title with which I'm not very familiar. Can you tell me what that means? A. It means I -~ I manage the entire area that is communications. And public relations, marketing, customer service, labor market information, all of that sits under my leadership. Q. How many people report to you? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1s 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 5 A. Directly or in my division as a total? Q. How many directly? A. Oh, let's see. Ten. @. Okay. A. and then 45 total in the division. Q. And tell me the positions of the people generally who report to you. A. There's three additional managers that are bureau chiefs over certain sections. There's an assistant, and then there's two people that are in grant management areas, and then additional people that are in public relations and marketing. Q@. Who are the additional did you say division managers? A. Right. There are bureau chiefs. one is over customer service. Her name is Carmen Gomez. One is over a section of our customized products and labor market information. That's Ryan Murphy. And the other one is over our Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics requirement pieces, and that's Donna Burkett. Q. Okay. ['m sure you've had an opportunity to visit with Mc. LaMarca and Mr. Peterzalek, but I want to be sure on the HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 6 record that I tell you what the rules are. one is that you need to wait until I finish my question before you begin your answer no matter how convoluted it is. Another is that you need to answer questions orally rather than nodding or shaking your head. AL Okay. @. Or saying "uh-huh" or “huh-uh," because we don't know what that means. And finally, if I ask you a question that you do not understand, please ask me for clarification before you answer, Will you do that? A. Yes. Absolutely. All right. Are you taking any medications that would interfere with your ability to give full, fair, and complete answers? A. No. Q. I want to talk about any meetings that you have had with Mr. LaMarca. How many such meetings have you had? A. I had one Friday morning briefly here, just to discuss that it would be in this room, some of the items that you just went over, answer truthfully, seek clarification, those HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) He kinds of things. Q. And then when else? A. Five minutes before we came in here. Q. You've not had a lengthy meeting with him at all? A. No. Q. How did you happen to draw up the statement that you made? A. As far as -- Are you talking about the one from Mark French? Q. yes. A. They presented me with the affidavit, and then I typed out the statement. Q. His affidavit, you mean? A. Correct. Mark French's affidavit. Because it included descriptions of information about me in it, and I developed a response to that. Q. And when did that happen? A. I don't know if T know the exact date. I'm sorry. @. Well, just give me an idea. MR, LaMARCA: Do you want to show her the memo? I think it has a date on it. Q. Yes, I think it does have a date on it. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910at 12 13 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 8 October 6th, 2014. A. I typed it up in the office that day it was given to me. A copy of it was given to me Towa Workforce Development. @. So you did not see it before then? A. No. It was given to me that day, and I typed up a response. @. You personally typed up the response? A. Yes, I personally typed up the response. @. Are you a member of the union? A. No. No, ma'am. I'm management. I'm not allowed to be a member of the union. (Exhibit 120 was marked for identification.) Q. Here is Exhibit 120. It is what's been given to me as your personnel file. Have you ever seen that before? A. No. I don't make a habit of going and pulling my personnel file. @. It bears Bates stamp P-KOONCE1 through 52. A. Okay. @. And what I have removed is pages and pages and pages of wage data. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 w 12 13 14 15 16 47 18 19 20, 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 9 AL Okay. Q. So take a leaf through there. How often are you evaluated? A. Approximately once a year. Q. Who does your evaluation? A. My direct supervisor, which has been the director of the department. Q. So now it would be Teresa Wahlert? A. Correct. @. Before you were in your current division position did you have another position with -- A. My position that I'm in now was created based on some reorganization, where I assumed some additional areas, but prior to that 1 was just over communications. And - But I still reported directly to the department director. Q. And who was the department director? A. Director Buck, Interim Director Neil, and Director Running have been the directors I've reported to. Q. So when Teresa Wahlert became the director of IWD, is that when the reorganization occurred? A. No. The reorganization just ~~ excuse HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910io 9 rr 12 13 14 15 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 10 me -~ occurred in August of 2013. Q. So up to that point in time you were just over communications? A. Communications predominantly, yes. ©. And what was your status in terms of your pay grade and that kind of thing? . PSE~3, TI can't tell you what -- I don't keep track of what the pay grade numbers are. Q. Public Service Executive-3? A. Public Service Executive-3. Q@. And what are you now? A. Public Service Executive-4 after I absorbed the other area. Q. And that happened in August of 2013? A. Correct. Q. If you will leaf through your personnel file, I don't think that you will find any kind of performance appraisals. There might be one or two. When did you start working for the state of Iowa? A. 1 -- Well, I originally started working for the state of Iowa back in 1996. I left. So are you talking about the Department of HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 iL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 11 Workforce Development? Q. hen you worked in 1996, where did you work? A. The Department of Economic Development. Q. And what did you do? A. Twas in the -- I was a marketing manager in the business development area. @. And for how long a period did you work for the state? I worked until 2004 for the Department of Economic Development. I left for a nonprofit. Q. Where did you go? A. Planned Parenthood. It was Planned Parenthood of Greater Iowa at the time. Now it's Planned Parenthood of the Heartland. Q. What did you do for them? A. As the director of marketing and communications, I led them through a reorganization of some of their programs. @. And so when did you come back to the state? I came back under a contract for the state in February of 2005 and then became permanent full time in February of 2006 HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 w7 18 19 ©q (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 12 @. So when you came back on a contzact, onsibilities? what were your resp A, Marketing and communications. They had -- Their current person had retired, and they were doing some restructuring of how they wanted to fill that @. Who was the person who was in your position before you were? A, JoAnn Callison. She had retired. @. She retired, and you took her place as a contract employee initially? A. Right. @. And then when did you become a full-time employee? A. February of 2006. @. And what I find in your personnel file are things like a position description and a supervisory analysis questionnaire. Look at 42, 43. A. Yeah. This looks like this would have been -- Yeah. This would have been -- Yeah. As the communications -- This is before the PSE~4. This is the PSE -- when I was a PSE-3. Q@. All right. And what was the purpose of this supervisory analysis questionnaire? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 ay 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) B A. It's a required piece by the Department of Administrative Services for any position that supervises individuals in state government. Q. When did you begin to be a supervisor? A. Roughly mid-2007. @. Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood that. When did you come back to the state? A. I came back to the state in 2005 and then full time in '06. I did not supervise staff when I first came back. Q. I see. What did you do? A. Marketing and communications work, but we just -- they had at one point in time eliminated through a layoff in the early 2000s in workforce development the majority of the overall marketing and communications staff. I -- So when I came back, I was the only one. We did not rebuild that staff until later on. @. And so was it on about 6-18-07 when you became a supervisor? A. Yeah. [I know it was mid-2007. 80 without having my notes in front of me, I can't - @. And then there is a position description questionnaire that accompanies the HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 14 supervisory analysis questionnaire that's dated about the same time. Where is your job description? Do you know? A. That is it, ma‘am. What's known as a PDQ, that is your job description. Q. I see. Who submitted this position for ranking to DAS? Do you know? A. ‘The PSE-3 one? @. Yes. A. It would have gone over by our -- No. No. It would have been one of the personnel staff members that was there at the time. I can't tell you if that was Vicky Sande or Thelma, I'm not sure which one would have submitted it over. It would have been one of the two staff members over there in personnel. @. Between 2007 and 2013 -- AL Okay. Q. -- did your duties change? A. The -- From 2007 to 2013? Youtre walking before we did the reorganization in 2013? Q Yes. A. The difference in the duties were -- as HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1g 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 15 I said, we added back to the staff, so we grew some more staff members, but that's kind of reflected in this. Otherwise, no, not really. Q. When you say you grew some more staff, tell me what you mean. A. We added back staff. We have what's known as an information specialist. That's different than an information technology specialist. It's Information Specialist 2 and 3. They ace marketing and communications, design, graphic design-type people. We added those individuals. We added in a person that was working on website redesign. That is - We ended up letting that person go at one point in time, and we did not refill that position in that capacity. Let's see. And due to some issues that happened with what everyone knows as CIETC, there was a customer service team, and their management was lost during some of the problems with that, and I absorbed those individuals, because customer service is really one of our primary communication points. Q. I can't remember when that all HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-4910a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 16 happened. A. That started in -- started in 2006, and then it rolled through a continual process. @. Did you also supervise contract employees at some point along the way? A. I have never directly supervised contract employees. @. Are you being paid for your testimony here today or. for your time today? A. Only on the clock as a state employee. Q. That's exactly what I mean. You're on the clock as a state employee? ae eivest Q. Were you on the clock as a state employee when you came out on Friday? A. Yes. It was after eight o'clock, so yes. Q. How long did you spend out here? A. About an hour. Q. And was Mr. Peterzalek here? A. No. Q. Besides your annual performance appraisals, where would those be if they"¥e not in your personnel file? A. I don't know where they're at. I have HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 1g 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 17 a copy of them in my office, because I maintain a copy of all of them, But as far as where they would be in HR, I can't answer that. There's multiple sets of personnel files. Q. Really? Tell me about that. A. There's what I call this stuff, your wage-type stuff. There's a separate medical file, I know. So 1 know -= -- @. Does Director Wahlert maintain a personnel file for you? A. I don't know. Managers have the opportunity to do that, but it's up to -~ your choice whether you do that or not. I maintain them for my employees, but that doesn't mean everyone does. @. So that might be where we would find your personnel appraisals? A. Yes. But she certainly wouldn't have appraisals that had anything to do with Director Buck or Interim Director Neil or any of that. @. Would she have disciplines? A. Again, if it was her, yes. Well, she could. Let me say that. She could. We -- We don't generally maintain all of that information within our own what we would call a supervisory HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 14 15 16 aw 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ca (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 18 file. That just gets turned over to human resources to keep. Q. And are you talking human resources DAS or human resources within Iwo? A. Within rwp. @. So human resources within IWD may have your performance appraisals; correct? AL Correct. Q. During the period of time between 2005 and the time -- well, up to the present time, have you received any discipline? A. I had -~ Have I received any formal discipline? No. Director Buck and IT had a disagreement, and she chose to put off giving me a performance eval until we straightened it out, basically. And then once she gave it to me, it was an exceeds on all accounts. @. When was that? A. Probably 2009. I'd have to go back and look to be able to tell you exactly. @. So there would be no discipline in your performance? I've had ho types of formal or informal discipline at all as a state employee. Q@. No written communications? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD, (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 a4 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 19 A. No written reprimands, no what we would call a work directive, anything like that. @. So tell me about the disagreement that you and Lis Buck had. A. It was rather personal. It's just a difference of philosophy of how things should be done. I believe it is my position in communications to try to prevent bad press. And if that means pushing back at the director to say "I don't think that's the way you should present information because it may be perceived incorrectly,” I feel that that's my job. My directors prior to Lis Buck believed that, my director after that. She did not. She believed that you should just always agree with her. Q. Well, what were you disagreeing about? A. How she was presenting some information publicly. Q. Like what? A. I can't even tell you -~ It's been a long time now. It was the way she was presenting unemployment information. And the way she was presenting it gave the perception HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 aw 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 20 that she did not understand the information because she was using the language inappropriately, the technical language. she was going to be doing a presentation to federal people who would absolutely know how the language is supposed to be used, and I wanted to save her the embarrassment of using it incorrectly. She did not like me pushing back. Q. Was Joe Walsh in your supervisory line of authority? That was never made clear, because I reported to the director. @. Did you ever have any disagreements with him? A. My only disagreements with Joe Walsh while he was deputy director was when we were working on a conference, putting it together, and he wasn't completing things that he said he would do. Q. Tell me about that. A. Securing speakers. He wasn't getting it done in the time frame that he said he would do it, and it was just causing problems yetting the schedule set up. Q. What conference was it? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) aa A. It was a workforce conference that we put forth. It was back in -- We did one in 2008 and 2010, And they were just workforce - overall workforce conferences designed to be for employers to learn more about workforce information. Q. Did you have any written communication from him? A. On? 2. Discipline or disagreements or anything like that. A. Oh, no. No. I would generally just walk straight into his office. It was two doors down, @. Did you have a PIP? A. Performance improvement plan? Q. Yes. AL No. Q@. Do you have a college degree? Yes, ma'am. Q. When and where? A. Drake University. Q. When? A. 1995. Was your first job with the state? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 44 15 16 a 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 22 A. No, it was not. Q. Tell me about your work history. A. My very first job out of college was with a firm that would be known now as The Integer Group. At the time it was known as Kragie/Newell Advertising, but it's been bought since then. One of my accounts was the state, was the Department of Economic Development. The Department of Economic Development recruited me from that account to come work for them, and that's when I did that and became a marketing manager with the Department of Economic Development in the business development area. And I worked at that until I left there in 2004. Q@. And that's when you went to Planned Parenthood? A. Correct. Yes. Q. And you were the communications specialist there? A. Director of marketing and communications under Jill June there. And then worked with them through some reorganization. It was not intended to be a permanent long-term multi-year job. I did what T was hired to do HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 un a2 13 14 1s 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 23 and then was starting to look for what my next opportunity would be. And I was asked by at the time Director Running and Deputy Director Jane Barto to come work and take over this position on a contract basis at workforce development because Joann Callison had retired. They were looking to see if they needed to make changes, what they needed to do. And then I became a permanent, as I said, full-time employee there a year later. When you returned on a contract basis, were you the only person in IWD doing communications? AL Yes, ma'am. And that is because of layoffs that occurred? A. There had been layoffs. And then with JoAnn retiring, then they had a vacant space there. @. Before JoAnn retired, though, were there other people doing communications work? A, There were other people involved in that work, but they had been caught up in their layoffs. HUNEY-~VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 24 Q. Oh, I see. Okay. So when you returned on a contract basis, you were the only person doing communications work? A. Correct. @. And that's where you've been ever since? A. Correct. @. Have you ever been fired or laid off from a job? A. No, ma'am. @. Have you ever resigned in lieu of being fired? A. No. Q. Tell me what you do on a day-to-day basis. A. Oh, it varies greatly. I handle public relations, marketing development, working with the staff on the development of materials, whether there's changes in programs, new programs, items that need updated, ensure that the customer service and all of the other areas are functioning correctly, provide support to my managers as they need to ensure that their teams are running strongly. I work with the legislature in HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 a4 1s 16 a 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 25 the sense of questions and requests that come. My team as a whole handles what we call constituent issues, which means there's sometimes complaints that come in. Maybe someone has made a complaint about services to one of our federal legislators or the governor or a state legislator. Those come through my office, and we do the research and handling of those questions. We research information that legislators from both houses are looking for or maybe they're working on developing a new law and they're looking for some data and points, you know, in support or against putting on their side. We work on providing that information. So my days are very varied. @. You said you handled complaints. Have you ever received any complaints about Chris Godfrey? A. Himself personally? @ Yes. A. No. I've received complaints about workers’ compensation. Q. Well, tell me about those. A. Generally when it's those, it's someone HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 aw 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 26 is unhappy with a decision. That's the same kind of thing that we get a lot on the unemployment side. Somebody is unhappy with a decision. @. Are those generally citizens or businesses, or what? Generally -~- They can be both. And generally what they've done is they've gone to a legislator to complain, and so the complaint comes to us through either the legislator directly or caucus staff. Q. In terms of your responsibilities, do you have responsibilities about putting together conferences? A. When we do them, yes. @. How many such conferences have you been involved in? At workforce development? Q. Yes. A. Two major ones, which would be the workforce summits that I mentioned before under Director Buck. I also helped First Lady Culver, when it was under Governor Culver's reign, put together her poverty conference. They had asked for some support from other agencies, and 1 HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 27 helped with that. Those would be the three main what IT would call large conferences. The rest is -- We have within Iowa Workforce Development an organization known as ECI, it's Employers Council of Iowa. And we have locations across the state that are regionalized. And those organizations do a lot of what we would -- what I would term training for employers on new laws, training on unemployment. I know several of the deputy commissioners and Commissioner Godfrey himself had gone out and done presentations and will help coordinate those as well. But I don't term that a conference, because that's, you know, a singular kind of meeting on one topic. Q. When were the workforce summits held? A. 2008 and 2010. Q. And was Commissioner Godfrey a speaker at either of those workforce summits? A. I believe ~~ Let's see. 1 think it's the 2008 one he sat on a panel with a variety of -- and one would have been Barb Tapscott, who would have been one of the agency attorneys at HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a1 12 13 14 15 16 ay 18 19 20 2a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ae the time. And I believe, without going back and looking at notes, Federal Representative Mike Stabell out of the Department of Labor Wage and Hour, I think, was on that same panel. Q. Was he present or speaking in 2010? Would you remember? I don't remember. 1 apologize. Q. And then this ECI, is that like a board? AL There is a state-level board, which has a representative from the various areas, but then the local -- what I would term the -~ my basic understanding is the local area -- we have regions within workforce development, 15 regions, and so there's an BCI within each of those regions. And that's so that they can really customize trainings and presentations to the needs of the local employers. So they're broken down regionally. @. And you said that Chris and deputies went to do that training? A. I know that they've been invited different times. And it's generally a presentation about how the workers’ compensation system works. In their case it would be HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 aa 18 16 47 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 29 employer responsibilities within it. It's a good chance for employers to get some Q and A time with the experts. We do the same thing on unemployment and a variety of other areas. @. When you have a conference that is an ECI, I don't know, training or whatever it is - A. Right. Q. =~ is that a day long or an hour long? A. Usually it's no longer than four hours, depending on the topic. Q@. So like half a day? A. Correct. Sometimes it might be what I would term a lunch and learn, more like an hour and a half. Q. And the workers' comp people go. Do the unemployment compensation people always go? A. There -- It's usually only one topic at a time. Q I see. A. And so it varies. You know, they're holding them ~~ the local areas are holding stuff monthly, and so obviously, you know, workers' comp is not at every one, because they would be repeating the same information. Do you have schedules for those HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 wy 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 30 meetings? A. We have a place on our website. It's just work -- iowaworkforce.org/eci and upcoming meetings, so that anyone that could attend and register would go. But also our local staff that we refer to as our business service representatives, it’s a person that's in the workforce system, maintains a list of employers that are interested in those meetings and then sends out direct communications to those individuals as well. @. When you get complaints from members of the public about workers’ comp, are they sometimes from injured workers? A. Yeah. They can be from either side, ma'am. Q. Do you have any way of telling how many come from injured workers, how many come from businesses in terms of workers' compensation? A. 1 could if 1 was in my office, because I could look at my log, because 1 keep track of all complaints. @. You have a log? A. Right. It's just a personal log so I HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 qn 42 13 1a 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 31 can keep track and make sure that we're answering all of -~ that we don't let anybody fall through the cracks on getting an answer. @. How far back does that go? A. I purge it about every 18 months. @. And the purpose of that log is -- When someone calls, do they get you? A. They may not get me. They may get other members of the staff. There's several of us that work on it. And for me, the log is to keep track that I know I've answered. Because there's multiples coming in at a time, as well as -- and sometimes it takes time to get the research, and I'd be waiting on getting information back from somebody. And I just don't want to let somebody slip through the crack without getting an answer. Q. Besides you, who else accepts those kinds of complaints? A. Well, the calls may come in anywhere. If they're going to be forwarded, they're forwarded either to myself or Carmen Gomez, who is the constituent liaison. Q. And does Carmen keep you updated on a HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 an 12 13 14 15 16 WwW 18 19 20 a1 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 32 daily basis as to what complaints she's handling? A. No. She keeps her own log. Q@. And what we would want to look at is whe is making the complaints? A, Right. And they're obviously not all workers’ compensation. @. What other kind of complaints do you get? A. I would say the majority of the complaints are unemployment they're related to. "I didn't get my unemployment. How come I didn’t get my unemployment?" That's one of the larger ones. We also have a program that we manage which is a federal program. It's known as TAA, Trade Adjustment Assistance. And that is people that are laid off from work due to foreign competition. And that doesn't mean your job just went overseas. Foreign impact. They're entitled to extra benefits under the federal law, more unemployment time, those kinds of things. 3 But there's also a lot of hoops, unfortunately, that they have to jump through to HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 33 get those benefits. And sometimes they don’t complete their paperwork in the federally required time, they don't get a benefit, they're mad, they don't understand, they complain to a legislator. That's another big one. Q. The majority of complaints that you get with respect to workers’ compensation, would they be from injured workers or would they be from businesses? A. Honestly, I think it's probably about even. Q. Do they come by telephone or by e-mail or both? A. Both. Q. And you log them all the same? A. And sometimes they would come from ~~ if they would happen to go to Senator Grassley's office, they would come in writing. He's still very big on sending letters. So an e-mail could come to you froma legislator who had heard from a constituent A. Right. Q@. == about some problem that IWD has jurisdiction over? A. Right. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 an 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 34 @. The legislator would e-mail you, and you would handle it from there? A. Correct. We would do the research into whatever the issue might be and provide back a statement of fact based on what was going on. Whether -- you know, unfortunately a lot of the times when people complain it’s not because of anything that's really been wrong, it's just because they're unhappy with the decision. So we would provide back the points in the law that showed where the decision was made, clarification points again, so that the legislators could use it to explain it to their constituent. Sometimes the legislators unfortunately will say "I have a constituent who is upset about this," but they don't give you enough details, you know, to really look at the actual case. And neither myself nor Carmen is willing to make conjecture in general, because there are very unique pieces to every case, and we're not going to make a blanket decision that would say -- you know, unemployment is a very good one. “How can ~~ This employer is upset HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 ig 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) i because they fired somebody and they got unemployment." Well, you can be fired and get unemployment. I need to know the details to be able to give you an answer to this. @. Do you respond directly to the constituent, or do you respond to the legislator? We respond to whoever sent us the complaint. $80 if it's the legislator, we respond to them. If it's caucus staff, we respond to the caucus staff. Or if it's the individual constituent themselves, then we respond to that person. The reason I'm looking at my phone is because Chris is communicating with me by text. A. Oh, that's fine. So that's why I'm doing this. Do you send a communication to the unemployment people if it is dealing with unemployment or to Chris if it's dealing with workers’ comp? I don't know who is in charge of the other program you mentioned. A. That's fine. Q. But that's what I'm ~~ A. When you say -- Are you talking about HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 36 when we first get the complaint? Q. Yes. Yes. A. It depends on what it is. If it's -- If it's workers' comp, then -- then I would either think it would have been Chris or Sharon Ortega, his assistant. Sometimes she can easily get -- depending on what the issue is. For unemployment, most of those I can get into the system and pull the records myself and look at that and see what needs to be done. For unemployment appeals, generally -- one of the largest complaints we get is "I feel I was treated rudely by the ALJ." And so we'll pull the hearing tape and listen to it. Q. I didn't even know you could complain about that. A. Yes, you can. Just so you know, you may. And we do get those. And so we'll pull the tape and listen to it to see if -- you know, if there was hostilities demonstrated, those kinds of things. 7 If I get a financial question, I'm just going to go straight to financial HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1b 12 13 14 18 16 17 18 1s 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 37 management, because it's their job to maintain all of that information. Q. Were you ever asked to look through your log to determine whether or not there were complaints about workers' compensation? No. Honestly, to be honest with you, I'm not sure who knows I keep that log, because as I said, I keep it for myself to make sure I'm not letting anybody slip through the crack. Q. When did Carmen go into her position? A. Well, she -- Carmen has been promoted up through the agency. She was -- My dates may be a little bit off here, but in 2011 -- I believe either late 2010, 2011 she was made the constituent liaison, and then -~ after a person that had been in that position moved on. And then she was last summer promoted to her management position, but we asked her to keep the constituent liaison piece with that because she's -- the work that she does with it is received well both federally and at the state level. And so that consistency is always appreciated. @. And she maintains the same kind of log that you do? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 13 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 38 A. I don't know if she maintains it in the exact same way. @. But she has a log, you think? A. Correct. Q. And tell me a little bit about the log. Is it the name of the person who writes you or e-mails you? A. Correct. It's whoever I received the contact from, the date that I received it, the quick -- a quick note on whether it's unemployment, work comp, just the area that needs to be done, and then I keep track of the date that I responded to it. @. So just a -- A. It's like four lines on an Excel spreadsheet. And it's just for me to make sure that I don't miss getting @ response back, because unfortunately I get a couple hundred e-mails a day, and 1 don't want to miss somebody. Q. Sometimes people complain, both businesses and employers, because they don't understand the law? A. Absolutely. That's a large complaint. Q. And what you do is Well, tell me how HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 39 you handle those. A. Well, depending on the topic at hand, we would take it and -- I try to cut and paste the actual code section so they know what we're referring to, but then I guess I turn it into laymen's terms sometimes for people that, you know, don't understand it as well. Especially on our unemployment side. I think the law is very confusing to the claimant, as I would say. Businesses maybe not as much, but the claimant. And just understanding what all of the language means. And nobody is usually trying to break the law because they want to break the law. They're doing it because they don’t understand it. So the more we can educate, the better off we are. Q. Tn an average month, how many such complaints would you get? AL Agencywide? Q. Yes. AL 20 to 30. @. That's just an average on a monthly basis? A. Yeah. It does ~~ It's higher during legislative session. Not because I think it HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 40 troly is higher, but I think people think "My legislator is in the office. I'm going te contact them." Q. So Carmen Gomez was promoted, you think, in -- What did she do before she was promoted? She had been an administrative assistant. Q. To? A. In the customer service area. Q. And then what was her first promotion? A. She started off in the agency as an Administrative Assistant 1. She was promoted to an Administrative Assistant 2, and that is when she absorbed the constituent duties. The former Administrative Assistant 2 had moved on within the agency to a promotion. And last summer she was promoted to a management position over all of customer service. Q. Is that a general line of promotion, or are those jobs posted, or how is that handled? Oh, they were all posted. ‘The AAl and AA2 would have been contract-covered positions, and then the management position -- it’s not contract covered because it's management, but it HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ae was posted and applications were taken from both internal and external. @. Back before 2013 and your current promotion ~~ AL Okay. @. -- how many people answered to you? A. At one time, it varied between eight and ten, depending on which positions were filled. @. Were those positions all added after the layoff? A. Yes. In the sense of the communications pieces, there were a couple of pieces, one being Mark French, who was the webmaster at the time, that came under me, Tt had been kind of floating in a different area, and it was just rearranged and put under me because your website is such a critical piece of your marketing. Q. And when did the website become a part of your responsibilities? A. Probably late 2007. Q. So Mr. French answered to you from 2007 on? A. He -- During some reorganization in HUNEY~VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 un 12 13 14 1s 16 17 1g 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 42 20 -- either 2011 or 2012, I can't tell you without looking at dates, we transitioned what he was doing and put it under IT. A lot of the state departments were moving in that direction. And as I understand what you told me earlier, you've not had any discipline or work directives or anything like that? A. Wo. Do you believe that being gay is a choice? AL No. Do you believe that people become gay or lesbian as a matter of their choice? No. 1 think it's just your human nature. How do you think people become gay or lesbian? I think it's human nature. You're born that way. ‘How is that? Q@. All right. Do you think that medication, psychological or psychiatric counseling, or prayer can change someone from being gay to being straight? A. No. No, I do not. De you believe that gay people present HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) bei any danger to straight people or to their marriages? A. Absolutely not. One of my closest friends in my personal life is gay. Q. Have you ever been a member of The Leadership Summit or spoken to The Leadership Summit? That's Bob Vander Plaats’ group. A. No. @. Your current position in 2013, is that like a department head equivalent? A. Are you talking about when T -- when it changed in 2013? @. yes. A. Yes, that would be correct. It would be on the same line as the head of unemployment or the head of our field services or the head of administrative services for us. @. All right. Would it be on the same plane as labor commissioner or workers’ comp commissioner? A, Well, those are different, because those are appointed positions. @. “So it would not be? A, I would not call it the same. I would call it the same as the head of unemployment HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 44 or -- Q. Who is the head of unemployment? A. Michael Wilkinson. Q. Do you know anybody named Kent at DAS? A, Kent -- I know a Kent Davison. I don't know if there's other Kents. Q. What is Mr. Davison? A. I don't know what his official title is. He's in IT. One of the things ~~ Part of the constituent side, we have to handle open records requests. And if I need to have an e-mail run, an e-mail open records request done, he's the person I contact. Q. Okay. A. I don't know what his official title is, though. @. Do you know anything about a litigation hold? A. Litigation hold means you don't delete. Q. Right. None of our e-mails in the agency are delete -- get deleted. They -~ Since the CIETC issue back in 2006 we've had a hold on all e-mails within the agency. So the Vault system, as its known, which is where they're stored, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 28 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 45 everything is there. Nothing gets deleted. Q@. | And do they all go through the servers? T don't =~ A. Every e-mail that would have the @iwd.iowa.gov e-mail extension at the end of it would be in that Vault, whether it's sent to or from, is the way I understand it to be. @. How do you generally communicate with Teresa Wahlert? A. Her office is about four doors down from mine, so I walk down there. @. If she's not in the office? A. I pick up the phone and call her. Q@. Do you use text messaging? A. With the director? No. Most of the text messaging that I use is ~~ I get staff members saying "I'm. not going to be in today. I’m running late," that kind of thing. @. So you do not communicate by text message with IWD Director Wahlert; is that correct? A. I've -- I've texted her to say "I'm running late” or "I'm not feeling well this morning." @. But nothing -- HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 13 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) bata AL No. Q@. Nothing of substance? A. No. Q@. Do you e-mail her? A. Ido. That would all be in the public record. Tell me about your responsibility, if any, with respect to the PERFECT system. . Tam not an If programmer, so I -- as far as in that kind of sense, I would have no responsibilities. What I would -- Where I would say it comes from is when we have legislative requests with questions about it, to gather data and return that information. There's also a specific reporter with an organization known as WorkCompCentral, and it's a publication, that contacts us repeatedly, and Commissioner Godfrey has had dealings with him as well, asking for updates on the PERFECT system Q. What's WorkCompcentral? A. It's a publication. tt's like a trade publication for the workérs' compensation industry. Q. And they contact you about the PERFECT HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1s 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 47 system? A. Right. They're always wanting to know what's the status, when is it going to go live. Q. How often do they contact you? A. Probably about every six to nine months, I'd say. And your other responsibility aside from responding to WorkCompCentral is what? A. Then, as I said, it would have to do with gathering data about it if there's a request, like a constituent request or a request from legislators with questions about the PERFECT system. @. So your only responsibility for the PERFECT system has always been providing information, or has that changed? That's been only my direct responsibility. Have you supervised people who have had other responsibilities with respect to the PERFECT system? A. Mark French worked -- I need to clarify that these are two different systems here. The PERFECT system is an application, so it's a development of like what most of us would think HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 al 12 13 14 18 16 17 18 19 20 a. 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) as of as a software system. It's a web-based application. Mark French was our webmaster for our public website, but that's completely different than an application. Mark was not involved in application development. He was working on the layout design of what I would call a landing page. It's just a singular front-facing page that could have faced the PERFECT system early on back under Director Buck, when the PERFECT system contract with HCL went into play. Q. Over here you will find exhibits. And the first one I want to talk to you about is Exhibit 11. MR. LaMARCA: Can we just take like a three-minute break? MS. CONLI : Sure. (A recess was taken.) Let's talk first about 11. Have you seen that before? A. No, ma'am, I don't think I have. Q. Well, then we don't need to deal with it if you have not seen it. It doesn't look to me like something HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 1s 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 4a that would have been created inside our department, just how it says “USD" for dollars and stuff. MR. LaMARCA: If you haven't seen it, just tell her. A. Okay. Wait. Do you want me to put it back in here where it goes? @. No. dust leave it right there. Then let's look at Exhibit 6. Okay. Q. This is a 2011 document. Return on investment, is that anything you have something to do with? Not for what I think of that's anything that they're talking about here, I do return on investments on our marketing campaigns and things like that, but this -- I've never seen this before. Q. Do you know Wes Hunsberger? A, I know who he is. He's an employee of the Department of Administrative Services. I've worked with him on RFP processes before, but nothing related to -- it would be for my own marketing-type processes. Q. And Chris writes, this is on HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 50 September 23rd, 2011, "I wanted to share the information that I received on the ROI program. It looks like we scored pretty well on the application. Thanks again to Gary for his assistance on this. I will keep you informed of any additional developments. If you have any ideas on working with the legislative review panel, perhaps we can work together on that in hopes of obtaining this important funding. Do you know anything about the funding that he was seeking? A. No. And I'm not included in this e-mail chain, so I don't know what this is about. @. Well, there are some that I'm going to show you that you're not included in that I think you may have responsibility for, in any event. AL Okay. Q. Here is Exhibit 121. (Exhibit 121 was marked for identification.) RL Will it be -- @. No. I'm going to give that to you. it is an e-mail chain. And some HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 15 16 aT 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) St of them are kind of weird. They go back and forth. I think this one goes in the order you would expect, which is back to front. A. Okay. It is a proposed press release that Chris sent to you on November 22nd, 2011. And you send it to Tim Albrecht. Correct Q. So are you the right person for Chris to send this proposed release to? A. For IWp? Q. Yes. A. Correct. Yes. Q. And what would you usually do with these releases? 5 It depends on the type of release it is. Sometimes they're going to go straight out from our department. With Commissioner Godfrey, Commissioner Mauro, or the director, I would send -~ because those are technically appointed positions, I would send those over to the governor's office to see if they had thoughts on whether they wanted to send it out, coming from them, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 52 Q. This is after Chris's salary has been lowered and after there's been public notice of his challenge to the governor's lowering of his salary. Okay. Q. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Albrecht about this? A. No. I sent it over -- "Thoughts?" Looking for his thoughts, whether he wanted to send -- This is the standard way that Tim and I worked together. To see if they ~~ did they want to send it out, et cetera. I didn't hear back right away from them. @. Did you hear back ever? A. Later on I had a phone call that said we're not going with it at this time. Q. 9 Why? A. They didn't give me that answer. ‘And it's not unusual. Probably, you know, 80 percent of the stuff that we want to do press on goes out. The rest of it for whatever reason -- it could be a variety -- I just recently a couple months ago had one with the director” where she had been given a national recognition. I sent it over, again the same way, and no, they HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 53 didn't want to do it at the time. MR. LaMARCA: when you say "director," who are you referring to? THE WITNESS: Sorry. Director Wahlert. A. She was put on a national board. To see if they wanted to send it out. Because again, she's their appointment, just like this is an appointed position. And no, they didn't. So we didn't send it out in the press either. Sometime later you had a conversation with Mr. Albrecht about whether or not there was going to be any press about Chris being appointed to a -- or being recognized nationally; correct? A. Right. And I was just looking for an answer from them. When you had your conversation with him, was there any mention of Chris bringing a cause of action against the governor's office? Oh, no. No. Q@. Any mention of him being gay? A. No. Q. Here is Exhibit 7. Did we look at Exhibit 6 already? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 a4 a5 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 34 Yeah, we did. I hadn't seen that, Q. Exhibit 7, again, is from Chris to a whole bunch of people dated March 20th, 2012. There was a budget situation, apparently, around this time, and he sent it to people asking whether or not there was anything that he could do or information that he could share with his staff prior to the staff meeting because they're facing questions about the situation. A. Sure. Q. Did you ever respond to this? Do you know? I'm sure I did. But without going and looking in what my -- I probably have the board note, because I probably wrote it -- without knowing which one it,is, I can't tell you whether I forwarded it without -- but if the director asked me to forward it, I'm sure I forwarded it. Q. "Please send the board note to these staff members.” I'm making an assumption here, so I'm assuming I'd written a note that went to the state workforce board -~ that was designed to go HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 LT 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 55 to the state workforce board about whatever budget discussion we're having here and that the director wanted me to send that note also to all of these people. Q. All right. And these people are the people that Chris copied? I'm assuming that -- that yeah, that's what she meant. ‘This would be what we would term predominantly the leadership team. Lisa Castillo is Director Wahlert's assistant. Lori Adams is the division administrator of the field services. Gary Bateman, head of IT. Joe Bervid, legal counsel. Jude Igbokwe at this time was a division administrator. He's no longer with the agency. Myself. Michael Mauro. Paul Mikkelsen, the head of administrative services. HR. Steve Slater, the deputy labor commissioner. The director and the deputy director. Joe Walsh, who would have been the head of unemployment appeals at the time. And Mike Wilkinson, the head of UI. So that's what we would term the leadership team. @. Are those the ones that met regularly ~~ HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 uw 12 13 14 1s 16 ay 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 56 A. Tuesday meetings. We had Tuesday afternoon scheduled meetings. Q. With Teresa Wahlert? AL Um-hum. @. Your answer is yes? A. Correct. It was a team meeting of everybody together. Q. And that was every Tuesday? A. They were scheduled for -- For a while they were scheduled for every Tuesday. They're scheduled now as every other Tuesday. And I think it's been that way for a year and a half or so. @. And you attended those meetings? A. Correct. Q@. Were minutes taken of those meetings? A. I -- Lisa Castillo, the director's assistant, took some notes. I don't know if she drafted them into minutes ox if she more kept them in the sense of things that people said they were going to do, just to make sure that people completed them. @. Do you remember any sort of a budget crisis around this time frame or budget situation? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 1s 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 37 2012. This would be two -- almost two and a half years ago. 1 -~ By the time frame, I'm thinking that we probably saw one of the first full bills that would be our budget bill for the agency, and there was probably some issues in it for the state budget, not the federal. And if that's the case, we probably convened a meeting -~ an extra meeting around it to talk about it. But again, without looking at my notes, I'm sorry -- Q. Let's look at Exhibit 20. The first of these e-mails is from Sue. How do you pronounce her name? A. Foecke. Q. ~Sue-Foecke to Mr. Godfrey. So let's first go from the -- I'm sorry, I may not be working on the -- If I’m reading this in order, the first one is to me. Q. Yes. A. Okay. I thought you said Mr. Godfrey. Q. The top one. I probably did. A. Okay. I meant the top one. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 58 The first one, dated Wednesday, April 3rd, 2013, at 12:39 -- AL Okay. -- is from you to Sue Foecke, with a copy to Ed Wallace. And it's about workers! compensation, and it says "Senator Dotzler ran into the deputy director the other day and asked @ question about the workers' compensation PERFECT system and concerns about the type of support being provided. I talked to IT" -- and that would be Mr, Bateman at the time? A. Corgect. Q. "Finance," who would that be? A. Generally I would have spoken to Kelly Taylor. Q. And "the commissioner," that would be Mr. Godfrey? aeeves Q. "And received the following update: Project Course:" You say "The Division of Workers' Compensation staff is currently testing the system and documenting any needed changes." Did that come to you from the commissioner? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 59 A. Without my notes in front of me, I think that came from Gary Bateman, saying they'd turned it over for what we would call some business analyst testing, the business owner, which would be workers’ compensation, to test some pieces of where it was standing at right now. When you say "I need to check my notes," tell me where your notes would be and how they would be organized. Because I would most likely have done all of this through e-mail, sent the questions that I had toe Gary, to Chris, to everybody, and then I would have their responses. And then how would they be organized? How would you find those notes? A. I -- I have a folder for practically everybody that I receive e-mails back from my conversations so that I can easily try to find them if I have to go back and look for something. @. So you would have a folder for Chris -~ A, Um-bum. @. -- and a folder for Mr. Bateman and so on? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 1s 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) cd AL Yes. Q. Your answer is yes? A. That is correct. Q. And so all of the e-mails that you exchanged with Chris Godfrey would be in a folder? The majority of them would be. I mean, if they were quick, didn't matter for something -- you know, but anything I was seeking information out, questions that needed to be answered, because I may need to go back and refer to it. @. All right. “Once the division has completed the testing, IT will bring the contractor, HCL, back in to make any corrections. A, I know that came from Mr. Bateman. @. "Converted data will need to be loaded into the system." Now, do you know what that converted data is? A. The way I understand it, how it's been explained to me is they would be talking about the data that sits in their existing workers’ compensation system and -- because you're moving HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 ca (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 61 to a new type of a system, there's some conversion in the layout of the data, and then that has to be loaded into the new system. Q. "The User Acceptance Testing will be completed by the division staff and KCL. any issues found will be corrected by HCL." And then "Go into live production. IT can't provide a firm timeline for completion until the division finishes its initial testing.” Who was doing that initial testing? Do you know? I'm not sure who was assigned by the commissioner to de the testing within the workers’ compensation staff. I believe Janna Martin was involved, but other than that, I don't know. Q. You don't think it was IT staff? A. No, because UAT is user testing. The user is the end user, which would be the workers’ compensation staff. Q. And then the funding you set out below? A. Yeah. And that would have come from Kelly Taylor in financial management. @. All right. And then you send it back to her? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 aL 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 62 A. And I carbon copied the deputy director so he knew I answered the question that has been posed in front of him. @. And she sends it back to Chris? A. Yes. It appears that she sent it back to Chris. It's the first time I'm seeing that. So yes. Q. Then let's look at 21. AL Okay. Q. So the first is a repetition. It's the identical document that you send back to Sue Foecke. And then he sends -- I'ma little unclear, but it looks like Senator Dotzler sends Chris what you sent to Sue Foecke. Is that a correct understanding? A. That's what it looks like to me. @. And he says, "Chris, Does the response from Kerry accurately reflect what is going on with your efforts to get the PERFECT system up and running?" And he says, "Senator - Thank you for sharing Kerry's response to your inquiry. I'm disappointed but not surprised that I ‘was not included on the e-mail to you regarding my division. I will bring you budget and other HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 as 16 ay 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) oa documents tomorrow for your review and consideration." This seems to say to me that you did not communicate with Chris before you responded to Sue Foecke. A. I probably did not, because the questions were IT based and financial based. 1 stated earlier that if they're financial, I go to financial. If they're IT, I go to IT. And the question came directly from Senator Dotzler to our deputy director. Chris was not involved in the original question asking. @. Well, the initial -- Did it come from Sue Foecke, do you think, the initial -- A, What I wrote to Sue says "Senator Dotzler ran into the deputy director. Q. So the deputy director, Mr. Wallace ~ A. Correct. Q. =~ would have brought this to your attention; correct? A. He would have brought it back and said -- what he would have said is "I ran into Bill. He's got these questions. Can you get the answers back to Sue?” But you say you talked to the HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 al 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 64 commissioner. Do you see that you say that? A. Yeah. And I probably did on some of this, whether it be the data part -- Again, you're talking -- you're asking me about an e-mail that is a year and a half old, without me having my information in front of me to go back and see who sent me or said to me what. I can't answer that. Q. Well, but you told me just a minute ago that you only talked to IT and finance. Well, I said that these pieces were IT. If I said in here that I spoke with the commissioner, I asked Chris questions. Q. And that would be by e-mail? A. E-mail or in person. There's a conference room that separated Chris and I's office. It was very easy to walk in and ask him @ question. Q@. Did you do that? Did you regularly -- Yes. You ask the commissioner, I would go in and ask him questions. Q. And Chris responds to Bill Dotzler, and then Bill Dotzler responds to Chris. And you're not copied on any of those. You're only on the first one? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 42 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 65 Correct. Q. Let's look at Exhibit 54. AL 54? Q. Yes AL Okay. Q@. I can't tell when this comes out, but 1 can tell yours goes to Chris down at the bottom. And there are several e-mails on this. This is very strange that there's no date and time. I know. It drives me crazy. All right. So -~ A. Was it actually sent? Q. Yes. AL Okay. Q@. At the back it appears as though Bric Johansen who is a staffer for the Republican caucus; right? A. That is correct. @. He sends you an e-mail which thanks you for your assistance. And maybe we'll find the e-mail that you provided him assistance. And he had additional follow-up questions which he asks. He got the contract, but he wants the original RFP and all associated bids. It says HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ad it’s going to be completed in ten months, and now it's over four years. "Why is it not completed?" Do you have a view as to why it's not completed? A. Do I have a view of why it's not completed? Q. Yes. Yes. A. In one set of course of events or exchanges with Eric Johansen, the IT department and -- I can't tell you who in the IT department right now, I believe it was Gary, provided an Excel document that we attached that was kind of like a line by line of activities with HCL of the issues that had happened, where there were problems and slowdowns in the contract. And that would have just been -~ I think it was probably provided with this one. It went back to Bric again as that being why, here's the problems. Q@. Gary Bateman has a line-by-line Excel spreadsheet? A. Yeah. It's =-"I would call it a log, keeping track of conversations that they had with HCL where problems took place. It's dates, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 67 who ~ who in the IT department worked with HCL on the issue, responses they received from HCL when it happened, that kind of thing. @. And that is something that you would have sent to Mr. Johansen at some point along the way? A. Yeah. And I believe it's probably roughly in relation to ~~ to some of this at this point in time. Mr. Johansen at a couple of different points has asked some questions about workers’ comp, so I can't say without seeing the actual e-mails which conversation took place in which order. Q. Part of it's about the PERFECT system, and part of it's about deputy directors. Number 6, for example, says "It was pointed out that 86.2 gives hiring authority to Mr. Godfrey; however, 840.1 outlines the director's duties, including 3a, which states 'the director of the department of workforce development shall...approve the employment of all personnel of the department and its divisions.‘ Director approval is also noted as required in the ‘Hiring Action Steps' document provided to me in HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ln 12 13 14 1s 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 68 your previous e-mail. Why has an approval not been requested or obtained on the most recent hire for the workers’ compensation commissioner's newest deputy? Also, how is an employee, such as a deputy commissioner, able to be placed on the state's payroll without this approval?" And if we look in the front, Chris answers "I do not understand this question as it supposes that the director did not approve. I worked with HR/Jon Nelson, who not only obtained her approval but also her approval for an advanced appointment.” Do you remember what person this was? A. January of 2014? Chris hired a couple Q. It might be Erica -- A. No. I think -- Well, possibly. 1 guess I was thinking Erica might have been on before that, but maybe I can't answer that question without -~ Q. It also might have been Joe walsh. A. It could have been. ‘hat time period is roughly the time period when Mr. Walsh came HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 1a 15 16 17 18 1g 20 aL 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 69 on, I think. ZI don't have the e-mail here in front of me that -- obviously Eric had sent a previous one, because this is referencing follow-up. And I may have it and not know that 1 have it. Sure. Q. "Mr. Godfrey stated 'The assignment process is a collaboration between our scheduler, Siri Reed, and myself to ensure that there is an equitable distribution of work between the deputy commissioners. His question is “Does this answer imply there's no set procedure for assigning cases? Please provide the name of the ALJ with the least amount of cases heard in 2013 and include the number of cases heard. Please provide the name of the ALJ with the most cases heard and the number of cases heard.” And he answers "There is no written procedure in place, but there is a common procedure previously explained.” is "Larry Walshire heard the fewest cases, 24; however, he and Deputy Helenjean Walleser both assisted with appellate HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 70 cases for a period of several months. Jennifer Gerrish-Lampe heard the most cases in fiscal year '13." Do you know why Mr. Johansen was interested in those figures? A. I'm sure he received a request from one of his legislators. ‘That's usually where those -- these generate from. Q. Exhibit 40 is a -- And get 41 while you're in there. A. 40 and 41? Q. Yes, please. 41 is very big, and it might include 40, but let's deal with 40 first. I tried to put these in some kind of order, but it's just hard to do because of the nature of the way that these were provided. I think that the first one that we get for Mr. Johansen on page 1530 is dated Thursday, January 23rd. That may be the first inquiry that you got from Mr. Johansen on this subject matter, because he asks for the contract for the PERFECT system and the RFP, and then he asks about assignments. Would that be correct? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ee I.think so. And that e-mail actually went directly from Eric to Mr. -- to Commissioner Godfrey @. Okay. A, So it didn't come to me at first. and then Chris sent it @. Sent it to you? A, -- to me and copied Janna Martin. Q is that the appropriate procedure for Chris to follow if he gets a direct request from Eric Johansen? That's the - That's the procedure we ask everyone to follow if they get a request from any legislative ~ @. They're supposed to give it to you? A. So that wé can keep it all coordinated together. One of the things that we find that happens is the same questions come from multiple different legislators. and this way it makes our responses easier. Q. and Chris sends it to you and says "For the first two requests I'm attaching to this e-mail a copy of the contract.” And he says who assisted, Barb Tapscott and Jeff Nelson in the AG's office. "They initiated a sole source HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 44 4s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 72 contract as the system is a modification by a vendor of an inherited system." "The third request will require a copy of the IWD hiring procedure to be provided. I have worked directly with Jon Nelson on the hiring process," and so on. And then you send it back to Eric. And then I think he sends to you something that is somewhat different than -- or maybe he says "Thank you again for your assistance. T have some follow-up and additional questions. Help me." It seems to me as though he -- 1 don't quite understand this, but it seems as though what you provided to him was Commissioner Godfrey's response. Would that be an understanding of how this worked? A. That would have been what I would have likely done. I mean, Commissioner Godfrey had said here's the copies of the two contracts. I would have forwarded that on. And then I had -- Chris in his did not have a copy ofthe hiring procedures. There's a copy of those that's -- we have a system called SharePoint, and it's like an HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 aw 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 73 internal system where documents can be stored for everybody to have access to within the agency. And the hiring procedures are placed there. I just pulled it off of that site and sent it as well, since Chris didn't have a copy of the hiring procedures. And 7 sent those over as well. @. So you send it - On the next page or the page preceding this it says from you to Mr. Johansen dated February 7th. And it says -- A. I'm sorzy. Can you tell me which page you're referencing? Q. I'm on 1527. A. Okay. Sorry. @. Are you there? AL Yes. Q. See down at the bottom? It appears to say that you are responding in red. And I'm assuming the red are the bullet points. yes. And I remember -- I remember this one very clearly. There's multiple colors on here, unfortunately, if you had this in a color copy. And you can see where I said "Commissioner Godfrey's Response," "C10 Gary HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) val Bateman's Response” in different places. and it's because their responses did not necessarily agree with each other, and it's not my place to make the determination of which is correct, so I just sent it all over. Q. So these are the answers that you provided to Eric Johansen that were provided to you by Commissioner Godfrey and Gary Bateman? A. Correct. And T just copied and pasted them out of their e-mails, and then I listed it as Commissionex Godfrey's response or CIO Bateman's response. And there was a few places where they didn't align perfectly, and it's not my place to choose. Q. Look at number 6, about the hiring authority. First is Chris's response, which we've already covered, but then Jon Nelson, he's the AR manager; correct? A. For IWD, correct. Q And he says "Chris - I read the trail of e-mails more closely and your response to question 6. JI want to point out that I did not get Director Wahlert's approval to hire anyone for the position. We obtained her approval to backfill the ‘soon to be vacated’ position(s), HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 M4 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 18 but 1 did not go to her and present to her your case for hiring Joe Walsh. In fact, I recall encouraging you to speak with the director regarding your decision to hire Joe, as she was his previous supervisor. I was not aware you had not spoken with her until I submitted the advanced appointment request for Joe's salary for her approval. Just wanted to clear up the fact that I do not make the case for why managers select the applicants they want to hire. It appears as though he got sone sort of general approval from Director Wahlert; correct? MR. LaMARCA: Well, I'm going to object to that. First of all, that's not an appropriate question. It assumes matters not in evidence. And whatever the document says is what it says. So to ask her what Teresa Wahlert's state of mind was, whether there was approval, when she doesn't have firsthand knowledge is inappropriate. Q. "We obtained her approval to backfill the 'soon to be vacated' position(s)."” A. I can explain what that means. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 can 12 13 44 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 16 @. That's what T need you to do, please. A. We have everybody within the agency -- There is a form. It's a vacancy fill form. You do not -- You haven't even posted the job yet, so you have no idea who your candidates are. It's the approval to post the job, to seek applicants. That's what they're talking about, the vacant to be filled. So she ~~ she had signed off on approving to fill the job, not on who the candidate was. @. So then she responds "Per the agency's hiring policies, 1 did receive a specific hiring approval request from Commissioner Godfrey" A. I'm sorry, which page? @. I'm in the same place on page 1529. Director Wahlert's response. I think that there might need to be a "not" in there. “Per the agency's hiring policies, I did receive a specific hiring approval request from Commissioner Godfrey or anyone else in the agency." A. { think there is a "not." @. "I did receive the following e-mail, but it does not include a hiring justification HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 42 13 14 1s 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ted letter ox a request for approval to hire. our HR manager stated that he suggested to Commissioner Godfrey that he should speak directly with me prior to making a decision and that did not hire.” I’m afraid I don't understand that. And then what is this sort of italicized portion? Do you know? I'm sure it's a cut and paste from somebody's e-mail. @. Do you know whose? A. This looks like an e-mail that Commissioner Godfrey wrote. Q. Okay. Joe Walsh at the time had been laid off by the Unemployment Compensation Bureau; is that correct? A. Yeah. Yes, from the Unemployment Appeals Bureau he'd been on layoff. And I believe when this position -- Chris was posting the position, he either applied or something. Q@. And I think, if it's Commissioner Godfrey, he says "Regardless, as Joe notes below, he is immensely qualified for the position of a deputy commissioner and can start HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910210 a 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 a 22 23 24 28 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 78 on day one, without the need for training or special attention. His hiring is a very wise and prudent use of my limited division resources, and I thank you for your noted trust in my financial management of my diyision. I will note that my division has never had serious fiscal concerns throughout my many years on the job as commissioner, frequently having a carryover of funds, minus the significant across-the-board cuts required due to the national fiscal crisis, which regrettably impacted our compliance division." He goes on to say "I do not foresee any unwise use of funds even if there is a prompt resolution of Joe's pending claims.” Do you know what kind of claims Joe had at the time? A. ‘This is January? It might have been involved in the I believe he took his layoff to -- the word is escaping me. I’m sorry. Q. Maybe it will come to you. A. Through the ALJ, through the review, the state's review. oa Q. PERB? A. Yeah. PERB or whatever one he would -- HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a I think probably PERB, yeah. I would assume that's what he's referencing. @. And then Mr. Johansen thanks you. A. Okay. And then Chris provides a further response. And it does look like you may have taken your response -~ but he talks about the fact that he was working with Jon Nelson. And he says "The only input of the director in the IWD action steps are number 5 when the P-5 is submitted for approval and then the communication te the director with feedback opportunity back to the hiring supervisor in 20." Do you know anything about what happened with respect ‘to Joe Walsh? A. No, ma'am, I don't, I'm sorry. Did you have any press inquiries about what was going on with Joe Walsh? A. Do you mean related to hiring him? Q. xes. gas Q. As a deputy workers' comp commissioner. A. No. I don't recall any press inquiries about it. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 a5 16 a7 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 80 Q. Did you have press inquiries when he was laid off? A. We had general press inquiries about our layoffs. They were across the board, as far as the entire layoff process. @. He was the head of the appeals division; correct? A. That is correct. @. And how many people were laid off at the same time that he was? A. Agencywide, I think it was like 25. Unemployment was hit hard because it was federal money. Q. And then I'm a little confused about these front ones. They appear after the others. You write to Eric and say "I've sent your questions to Godfrey," but that's earlier. On February 10th you write to Godfrey saying "I don't have personal communications that the director received. only her verbal information on it." And I'm not sure what that goes with. A. I'm pretty sure that that -- there was HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 a4 1s 16 a7 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 81 the one where you referenced where I said the direct -- back on page 1529. Q. Oh, wait a minute. AL I'm sorry. Q. I thought it was 1526. Take a look at 1526. A. Oh, sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. I thought it was 1529, on the second bullet, where I said "Director Wahlert's Response." Because I -- my understanding was that Bric Johansen had sent an e-mail directly to Teresa about it, separate from this -- this round, but she'd given me the information to include, her response, with the whole thing. And then Chris at some point, I think, asked me for what she had received, and that's when I said I don't have her personal correspondence, I don't have her e-mail to hand that over to him. @. So you gave him verbal information from Teresa? A. Gorrect. She gave me verbal, and I gave that back. But I don't have a copy of the e-mail that she would have received directly. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 82 Exhibit 41 is really very lengthy. This is the one that I think kind of goes back and forth and covers a number of different areas. It's 1475 through 1508. ‘Those are the numbers. AL Okay. Q. Let's kind of start at the back and work our way through here. A. So Like 1507? 2. Yes. The first doesn't have you on it. It's about Linda Benson's retirement. And the director asks about -- First Chris asks about hiring someone to replace Linda Benson. And Teresa Wahlert asks "How is your budget looking?" And he says "It's strong. I spoke with Kelly" -- And that would be Kelly -- A. Taylor, I'm sure. Q. Taylor, right. Then Chris writes to Wahlert sometime later, though we don't know when, and says "Has’ there been any decision made to” commence the hiring process?" A I don't understand. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 u 12 13 14 15 16 17 1g 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 83 Q. And I believe that's the hiring process for Linda Benson. ALT can’t comment on -~ Q. You're not even on these yet. And then there's a February 19th e-mail from Kelly Taylor to Chris, who says "I've made a big mistake" and says there's an unobligated balance of $157,130. And apparently he had previously said that Chris was over his budget. AL Okay. Q@. Then on February 19th -~ that is the same day, but this is earlier than the one from Kelly Taylor. And Chris ‘sends it to Director Wahlert and Jon Nelson and says "I've got a hiring committee, and we have numerous candidates for the position of deputy workers’ compensation commissioner." That's the job that Joe Walsh applied for. So it's different than the earlier position. A. Right. But this says they're recommending Erin Pals. It's the second paragraph. “The hiring committee has determined that the best-qualified candidate for the position is Brin Pals.” HONEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 an 12 13 14 15 16 wy 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a4 Erin Pals. All right. And then something happened with respect to her, but she was eventually hired; correct? Yeah. She’s on staff. But you don't have anything -- you're in here someplace, I promise. A. Okay. Q. I'm not exactly sure where. There is a decision of Administrative Law Judge Ann Smisek, S-M-I-S-E-K, on the question of Joe Walsh's discharge EN Is this the PERB case? Yes.. I think -- Well, whatever it is. It's some case. Ruling on the motion, State of Iowa, Before the Public Employment Relations Board, dated February 20th, 2014. A. Okay. Q@. He appealed a disciplinary action, and the state moved to dismiss, and I believe that the state's motion to dismiss was denied. A. Yeah. I'm not involved in this’ Stuff, 30 I'm sorry. @. I wonder where you are. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 aL 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 85 And then he was reinstated. Did you have anything to do with this -- See page 1488? A, No. This looks like something HR might have wrote. I'm looking for my name. 1 apologize. Q@. I'm looking for it too. A. T just don't understand why some of these do not have the sent times. Q. No, I don't either. Where we are now has to do with the carryover in the workers’ compensation budget. Do you know anything about that? A. Carryover is allowed in budgets ~~ state budgets when it's a general fund appropriation. And carryover is not allowed in the line items that are what we call P and Z. And that is because carryover authority has to be specifically legislated each year. It's legislated every year for our general fund appropriations within each budget. It is never legislated for P and I. Q. What's P and 1? A. It stands for penalty and interest. It is the funds that are collected off -- for HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 it 12 13 14 15 16 aT 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a6 example, off of unemployment tax. You -- Your company failed to pay your taxes on time. You pay a penalty and an interest on it. It goes into a general fund for the department that we can draw from, but it has to be authorized each year. $0, for example, frequently they authorize money to go towards the field offices, the operation of our satellite offices. They might authorize it for a special project, but P and I money does not have carryover authority: I receive P and I money each year for marketing, because we can't use federal funds for marketing. $0 I receive P and I, but -- and it's about 50,000 that 1 receive, but if I do not use that, let's say I use 30,000 of it, I don't get to keep that 20,000. rt goes back to the master P and I pot and has to be reauthorized. So let me see if I can repeat this back to you, if I have understood what you've told me. Okay. Q. Carryover funds come from the general fund and are authorized by the legislature? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 ay 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 87 A. Correct. Q. PB and T, penalty and interest funds, you can take those for one year? A. And then if you don't spend all of it, it goes back to the main P and I fund, And it would have to be reobligated, reauthorized to you. 2. So is it to your advantage to spend that P and I money? Do you understand what I'm asking you? A. Sure, I guess. Yeah. I mean -- Q. I'm just talking about a budget entry, perhaps, that would take -~ let's say your first 50,000, using your example of 50,000 in P and 1 funds for marketing -- AL Okay. Q. ~~ your first 50,000 for marketing would be P and I funds; correct? A. Not necessarily. Because if I have a specific fund source that that marketing goes to, I'm obligated to charge it to it. So, for example, I recently had a federal grant that was for marketing for unemployment fraud. Even -- I -~ All my HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 V7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) se unemployment fraud marketing had to be charged to that grant first. So yes, that ended up that year leaving P and I money extra. Q. So that P and I money went back to the general tuna? A, It goes back to the fund, and I have to start over and ask for it again every year. Q. I'm still not quite clear. The P and IT money, as it comes in is it spent? A. No. ft goes inte a special account. It sits there. Call it a savings account, let's call it. The money just gets deposited into that account. I don't know what the balance is en it right now, but it's probably roughly around 4 million now. When we receive our legislative appropriations bill each year, there's -- for our department there's a couple of types of money in it. One ie the general fund money, which we all think of as the state appropriations. And we have line items for our field offices, workers' compensation, labor, those kinds of things. If you don't spend all of that money in the year, there's specific language in HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 1g 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) so the bill that authorizes you to carry it over, maintain that money for the next year. The P and I then has separate spending authority. You know, it lays it out. You must spend $500,000 of P and I on this. You can use it for this. You can spend a million of P and I on this. But if you do not spend all of it, it does not carry over. You have no authority whatsoever to maintain that. So let's say I have a special project I'm working on and I'm given $300,000 of P and I for that. If I don't get it done, that project, in that fiscal year, I'm out that money. It goes back to P and I. and I'm going to have to reask for it again. I have no authority to maintain that P and I money in my budget for the next fiscal year. @. When you say you have 4 million and that maybe you spend a million on this and 500,000 on that, is that money appropriated by the legislature? A. Yes. They have a specific line of where they appropriate those. Q. And that is appropriated from your savings account? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 28 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 90 A. Yeah. We'll call it the savings, because I don't know what else to call it for a reference point. Q. Maybe I get that and maybe I don't. I'm still looking for you. Okay. Q. I wonder if I -- Oh, here we go. Look at here. 1481. Okay. Q But that doesn't seem to have much to do with what we've been talking about. It's to you from Chris and Sharon about advisory committee materials. Maybe they just got placed in the same direction. A. Yeah. I think somebody put them like in my box and I was gone for the day and didn't send them out until the next day. Q. And then we have direct approval from Teresa Wahlert for hiring Erin; correct? A. Yeah. I'm not -- Q. That's 1480. Yeah. “Q.° And then there's from Chris to Teresa about the WC carryover. "The meeting has been called to investigate uncertainty with the HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 al 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) on workers' compensation budget and the funding levels for current status quo staffing and IT costs for the division." I don't see you on this page. Did you have anything to do with the workers! comp carryover in 2014? No. @. Well, that was a long exercise for virtually no reason. That was 41. And we've done 40 and 54. 24 is about in the same time frame, February of 2014. A Just @ one-pager? Yes. Now, let me show you what we're dealing with here. We've got 23, 24, and 29. And they have to do with this little deal that Senator Chapman put up. A. Okay. So 23, the first one that he put up, it's Workers’ Compensation Cases 2013. Have you seen Exhibit 23 before? A. Somebody in the workers' comp team, 1 can't remember if it's Chris or -- pointed me to his blog page when this came up. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1g 20 2. 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a Q. "The information below," he says, “is a document produced by Towa's Workforce Development Division in response to a request made by Senator Chapman." And he purports to publish the results of workers’ compensation cases in 2013 by deputy; correct? A. That's what it looks like. @. Then on February 14th, Valentine's Day, you respond to Jennifer Gerrish-Lampe with carbon copies to other workers' compensation deputy commissioners, as well as Chris. And the first thing is sent to you by Jennifer Gerrish-Lampe, and she says Senator Chapman has a compilation of statistics, and he says that it came from our division. And no, it didn't. And you say "I have already discussed this with the commissioner." and I assume that would be Commissioner Godfrey? AL If 1 =~ Yeah. @. “We don't know who authored it, but I got the senator to change the wording on his website to IWD data instead of an IMD report. He indicates it is based on the case decisions listed on the website." HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 uw 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ke And then we have Exhibit 25, which then says "The information below is from Iowa Workforce Development data." Did you do anything further with respect to the publication of workers’ compensation cases by deputy and Senator Chapman? A, I had -- There was a request to -~ before this somewhere, and I think it came from Senator Chapman himself, asking for some case breakdown by deputy. And Chris had indicated -- I can't remember if he had Janna or somebody checking to see if there was a report that could be drawn and couldn't get it in the way the senator was asking for the data, so we had referred him to the link that’s posted on our public website that has all of the case listings, where all decisions are posted publicly. @. Right. 1 know that. A. So that's what we gave him for "Here's the web page." “ "a did’-- 3 think there's another e-mail that goes with this somewhere too that I had told Chris -- I had responded to Chris too HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 44 45 16 7 18 19 20 2a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 94 that I would get in contact with Senator Chapman and ask him to correct the wording so it didn't appear that it came from the workers! compensation commission or the commissioner. Q. And then 25 is what he agreed to do? A. Yeah, I didn't tell him what to write I just said "This is not an official department document. Can you not refer to it that way, please?" Q. Did you have any direct communication with Senator Chapman on this issue? A. I called him and asked him to make the change. Q@. I see. And he was agreeable to do that? A. Yeah. ite didn't have a problem with that. Q. What person was it that assembled this data? Do you know? A. That I do not know. Like I said, I previously gave him the link on our website to where the cases are. I know at one point in time I think he'd worked with Former Representative Horbach, who had been a representative who is no longer a HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 95 representative, because Representative Horbach had done some of this work a couple years previously. @. In order to do the compilation that he's done, it would be necessary to read all of the decisions; correct? A. I would think so. I -- Because that's what would be posted on the website, would be all of the decisions. Right. And so you don't know who did that? A. Wo. And it certainly wouldn't be -~ you know, if somebody wanted to do this on the unemployment appeals side, it would be much easier, because they would say the case is affirmed or the case is -- or not. But that's not the way a workers’ compensation decision would be written. @. Those decisions generally have a number of different issues in them. Would that be correct? A. Correct. And I also know that they also post their -~ what do I want to call it alternate medical care, I believe it is, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 96 decisions, which would be something before a case has ended, you know, it would be part of the case. And I know that they post those decisions as well. @. Do you know whether or not Senator Chapman's compilation deals with the alternative medical care? A. I remember he asked me a question one time what alternative medical care was, and I pointed him to the direction in the law to show that it wasn't the final decision of a case. Q. But you don't know whether they are or are not included? A. No. By the numbers, I would guess not, but just going back to Chris's previous e-mail where he listed how many -- it was in one of the other documents where he said how many cases somebody had heard ina year, who heard the most. And those numbers fall in line, I think, fairly close to those cases, so I wouldn't think it would include the alternate medical care, but I don't know for sure. Q. Let's dé Exhibits 38 and 39. Why don't you get those out, but then let's take a break. (A recess was taken.) HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 11 12 13 14 1s 16 a7 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) atl @. Did you have direct supervisory authority over Mark French at any time? A I did for a time period. Correct. Q. What time peridd? A. Roughly two -- sometime in '07 through probably sometime in 2012, when we did some reorganization and we moved him under IT. Roughly. Q. Did he have any discipline or work directives? A. No. I never gave him any formal discipline for any reason. No. @ Is there -- Can I rephrase that? Q. Yes. A. I don't know if he had any prior to my supervision of him or after that. Just under me he never had any. Q.° Is there any policy, written or unwritten, regarding press releases within IWD since January of 2011? A. There hasn't been any changes. Our press policies as they exist today were actually developed under Director Buck. And is a personnel matter ever okay for HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a. 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 98 inclusion in a press release, or do you know? A. Generally -- Generally, no. Tt would =~ There could be issues, but as far as whether somebody has been disciplined, no. There has actually been changes in the state law that says you may say that somebody was terminated from a department, but you don't say why. @. When did that change occur? A. Not this last session but the session before. @. When you made press releases, did you also place it on the IWD website? A. Mark French usually places it on the iowaworkforce.org website. .Brei Johnson places it on our iowaworkforcedevelopment.gov website. Q. Did you have any supervisory authority over Delynn -- A. Delynn Overturf? Q. Yes. A. No. She was 100 percent an IT contractor. Q. When were you aware that Chris Godfrey was: gay? A. I'm not sure. I mean, it was early on, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 oa (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 99 probably, in his tenure. It was probably one of the first times when he was going around for confirmation, He talked about I remember when was deployed, and I felt bad for Chris then, Q. Do you know 2 I believe I met him once at a restaurant, actually just happened to run into - I was with my husband, I think, at lunch, actually, and they were there. But other than that, no, I don't know him. Q. Were you invited to a holiday party at Chris and home in 2007? A. I don't recall ever being invited by Chris to his home. Q. Did you see in Chris Godfrey's office? I don't know if I could pick out of a -- because I think I've seen him once, so I don't =~ @. So you don't know whether or not he was in Chris Godfrey's -- A. saying Yeah, ‘Yeah. MR. LaMARCA: Wait. You're "Yeah" ~~ HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 wt 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 1g 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 100 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 1 do not ~~ don't think I could pick out of a lineup. TI would not recognize if was the person standing in Chris's office. @. Did Chris mention when received medal at a staff meeting for a newsletter? A. We were working on a redesign of a -- what we call our veterans book, and we like to use pictures of real Towa veterans in it. We were looking for some new ones. And had received a new medal at the time. That may be the one. I don't know. And Chris said maybe he could get @ picture of that. MR. LaMARCA: Can we get a date on that for the record, please? THE WITNESS: Probably a year and a half ago. I can't tell you the exact staff meeting date, but it probably would have been about a year and 2 half ago when we were looking at redoing the book at that time. MR. LaMARCA: So after the claims in this lawsuit then? : THE WITNESS: Oh, absolutely. MR. LaMARCA: Okay. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1. 12 13 1a 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ao Q. Tell me more about this veterans book. A. . It's a book that the department creates. And it's -~ it's for veterans, particularly those coming -- recently disconnected from the military. And it's about services that are available in Iowa and through our department. And it's a piece to kind of be a one-stop piece, a document that they can be given to show all of their resources, contact information, you know, services that the department provides, plus other services. was included in that publication? A. We never received the picture. @. Who was in the meeting when Chris mentioned 2 A. Well, I think that was our -- one. of our Tuesday staff meetings. So it could have been any member of the leadership team. I believe Lori Adams made the request, so I'm sure she was there. Q. I'm sorry? A.” Lori adams. The publication technically belongs to her division, so she would have been talking about updating it and HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 4 15 16 aq 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 102 made a request for new veterans’ pictures. But I think it was in a Tuesday staff meeting, so it could have been any member of the leadership team Q. Did you participate in the emergency advisory committee meeting of the Workers! Compensation Advisory Committee that occurred, I think, shortly after Chris's salary was lowered? I think the answer -- I've never participated in a Workers’ Compensation Advisory Committee meeting at all. @. Is there any other advisory committee that you know of? AL No. @. Did you work with Teresa Wahlert to request information from the advisory committee? A. Not with Director Wahlert. We received a request from legislative staff asking for -- 1 believe it was minutes of committee meetings. Q. Okay. A. So -- And I had to go to -~ I don't have a contact with the advisory committee, so I went to Chris and asked them to -- a Q. About when would that have been? A. A year ago, maybe. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) aoe @. Oh, not around the 2011 date? A. No. I don't -~ No. Q. At least as far as you know? A. No. No. The request that I received was from Eric Johansen on behalf of a legislator, and that was probably within the last year. Q. We were going to look at 38 and 39. AL Okay. Q I'm not sure that these are in the proper order. 39 is littler, though, so let's deal with it first A. Okay. Q. This is from Paul Mikkelsen. What is his position? A. Paul Mikkelsen would be our division administrator over the Administrative Services Division, which would be finance, personnel, premises, those kinds of things. @. And he sends out to everybody "Tell us your top one or two accomplishments for this SFY." : Fiscal year I get, but what's the one A. State fiscal year. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 104 @. And then Chris sends him back the things that he believes are of importance. "Reducing the number of intra-agency appeal files to the lowest level in recorded statistical history, with a significantly reduced timeline. And the division also teamed up with the advisory committee to be selected to host the IAIABC Spring 2013 Forum in Des Moines." Did you know about that forum in Des Moines? A. Yes. Chris was very proud of it when that -- when they were selected, and he talked about it at one of our Tuesday meetings. Q. Was that ever publicized in any way, to your knowledge? A, We put it in our newsletter. 1 remember Director Wahlert offering in that meeting to help him find -- I believe they were looking for venues for like an evening reception, you know, offering to help him find that as well. But to publicize it -- We're not the association host, you know, having it. Q. Now, 38, I believe that the first HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 1s 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 105 several ones of these we've already dealt with. That would be 1602 back. AL Okay. We've already dealt with that. Let me see where you are again. You're on page 1597, but that. looke like a repeat. And then on page 1596 Chris sends you what we've already looked at, and then you send back to him "I believe the director received a separate note to just her asking about the approval process. Her statement was that she did not receive a formal letter for the hire but did receive the request for advanced appointment. I would assume the question relates specifically to steps 19 through 21 of the hiring procedures document And then he sent it to Jon Nelson. And then he sends again to Jon Nelson, with a copy to you ~ This locks to be where you asked me where that italicized came from before. It would have been a cut and paste from here. @. Yes. Okay. And this is not the hiring of Erin Pals. It is the hiring of Joe Walsh; correct? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 106 A. Tt says Joe Walsh here, so yes. Q. Then the next thing that I see is Teresa writes to Chris about Joe Walsh. She did not want to rehire Joe Walsh; correct? A. I'm sorry, I wasn't involved in this conversation, so I can't comment on that Q@. Let me see if you are involved at some point later. I think not. No, you aren't. That's 38. Were you a recipient of -- or are you aware of Exhibit 87? Let me just hand you a copy just to see whether or not this is something that you know about. It is "Iowa workers' compensation rights could moderate in 2014." A. I read the article. doe Gardyasz is a writer for the Business Record. @. So you read the article, but weren't you generally working with -- or at some point along the way did you work with Chris about workers’ compensation rates? A. Well, rates are not a portion of our agency. That would be’ for the insurance commission, for them to do press on rates. Workforce development doesn't set rates for HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ag 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 107 workers' compensation. Q. Wouldn't you work with Chris, however, when rates for workers' compensation went up? Didn't you put out a press release about that? A. Rates? No. Q. Never with respect to rates? A. No. The only information -- We have a yearly release that goes out that talks about the benefits for unemployment, what somebody is going to get for unemployment, and then the benefits for workers' compensation that a person would receive as far as temporary disability, if there's been an increase in the rate. Not the insurance rate, but the payment rate. The insurance rate is what the employer pays to their insurance company. Q. Right. A. We would talk about the benefits. Q@. Exhibit 27 is dated December 30th, 2011, from Teresa Wahlert to IWD employees. And I'm just wondering whether or not you had a role in drafting what she sent to IWD employees and what I understand she sends at the end of every year. A. Oh, I help, yeah. She gives me some HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2a 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 108 ideas, I craft -- because she makes the final. I give her a document, and she edits it. I've done that for every director. Q. So this is something that you would draft initially, and then she would edit it? Is that a correct understanding? A. That would be a good way to put it, yes. Q. Exhibit 30 is the workers' compensation budget. I just need to know whether or not you have any role or responsibility about this document or anything having to do with budget matters. A. No. This looks like this is created out of financial management. It looks similar to the one that I receive from them. Q. Do you receive a copy of Exhibit 8 or have you seen it before? A. 1 have never actually seen it. Chris has mentioned it before. Q. He didn't give you a copy of it? A. No. I've never actually gotten a copy. I think this looks like it's a book to me, : maybe. Is it a book? Q. Yes, it is. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 iL 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 209 A. No, I've never gotten a copy of the book. Q. Were you aware that the National Academy of Social Insurance -- were you at any time aware that they ranked Iowa's workers! compensation system as the best in the country? A. Was that back maybe in 20107 Q. I don't remember. A. It seems like when Director Buck was here we did something -- a press -- something about a ranking when ~ when Elisabeth Buck was the director back in '9, '10. Some new ranking had come out at that point in time. But I write a lot of press releases, so that's asking me to go back a ways without having it in front of me. Q. And Exhibit 32 is the agency performance plan for fiscal 2014. Is that a document with which you're familiar? A. Yeah. Paul Mikkelsen puts this together, but I'm familiar with it. Q. Does this come out every year? A We -~ Yes. We are required to report it to the Department of Management, the state's Department of Management HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 a4 15 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 28 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 110 Q. And so there would be one for fiscal year 2010, ‘11, '12, '13, ‘14? A. Yeah. There's usually changes every year for what you're measuring, but —- @. So let me see if there is something about you in here. Yeah, Right on the front page. The "2013 Results," all I see in here is "De you see what I'm locking at? A. I think that's just a typo, because nobody has 2013 results in. Q. No, that's not correct, because Chris does. A. Oh, well, most of the sections don't have it. So I'm going to guess maybe this is Chris's version he typed on and sent it back in. I would type on my own and send it back in. Q. And you send it to Paul Mikkelsen? A. Correct. And then he does the master document and turns it in to DOM. Q. Exhibit 10, I'm wondering if this is something that you have ever seen before. I'm not sure whose handwriting it is at the top. De you see that? A. Yeah, Where it says “Websense” 2 Yes. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 aa 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 2L 22 23 24 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) qt Do you know whose handwriting that ‘is? A. No. I know what this document is, Q. Tell me what it is. A. We instituted a new -- When I say “we,” IT mean the department, sorry, instituted a new software program a couple years ago called Websense. And it blocks stuff We were having a lot of problems in our field offices of people getting into really inappropriate -- sitting down and locking at pornography all day long, sitting at a computer in a field office looking at weapons and things like that. So this is the system that state government uses, and we instituted it. These are categories that you can block. And it starts off by blocking like the whole category and then you have to open up sections of it. Q@. I don't understand what you're talking about. A So there might be a category of websites that fall into drugs. That's one of the examples on here. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ar 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a @. Let's find drugs. A. It starts on the first page and then goes into the second. QT see. A. So you can block the whole category of drugs, so it would block -- and things that fall into these areas, or you could say, “Well, it's okay for people to look at information that's about prescribed medication," so you would go and open that back up. I can give you an example of how this has affected me. One of the categories we block is gambling. No need to be doing gambling on work time, but I wanted to go look at some marketing efforts that the Iowa Lottery was doing and to compare them. Well, it's considered a gambling site, so even though it's a state government agency, I had to get the Iowa Lottery's website opened back up. Q. ho do you go to to have that done? A. I send a note to our IT help desk, and they can open it up. a @. That would be under Gary Bateman's A. Yeah. Technically it's under Martin HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 ai 22 23 24 25 eq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 113. Moen's supervision, so a level below. Q- A level below Gary Bateman? A, Right. So it would be Gary, Martin, and then the help desk. And I would just send them an e-mail that said "Iowa Lottery's website is blocked under gambling, but it's a state agency, I need to look at it for this," and they'd open it up. 2. So do you know who put this document together? A. I think that this is just a printout from the Websense system that tells you what the categories are. @. And the Websense -- A. Is the software program that you can use to block websites. @. Do you know who developed that? A. It's a proprietary program that the state bought. Like Department of Administrative Services bought it. Agencies can use it. Q. And I think that you told me that with respect to documents like Exhibit 29 -- this is the Iowa Workforce Development -- it's like a newsletter? A. Right HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 114 Q. How often does it come out? A. Roughly quarterly. I say roughly because we're not always perfect. Sometimes we're waiting on some information from somebody and then we post it on our public website and send a note to staff that it's available. And then it's out for the public as well. @. So on a roughly quarterly basis? A. Right. Q. hat is this called? A. Towa Workforce News. It's just our agency newsletter. Q. And you post it on your web page? A. Right. Towaworkforce.org. Then there's a link to -- And we keep all of the old ones up too so people can go back and look at them. Q. . And who writes documents like Exhibit 292 A. My marketing team puts this together. A lot of the articles are submitted by various people within the agency. @. Who is on your marketing team? ~ A. Brei Johnson and Katie Homer would be involved in this, Katie being the primary one. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 11s (Exhibit 122 was marked for identification.} Q. 122 is the affidavit of Mark French, which I understand is the document that you replied to; is that correct? A. That is correct. (Exhibit 123 was marked for identification.) Q. Let me give you a copy of your response. We'll mark that 123. Let's go through Mr. French's affidavit. He started while you were gone. or were you still in the agency when he started in August of 20007 A. I was -- would have been at the Department of Economic Development as a state employee at that time. Q. He was always employed by Iowa Workforce Development; correct? A. I do not know of him ever being employed by any other state agency. @. He says his primary employment is public relations and communications and information technology. Do you have any reason to doubt HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1g 20 an 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a that? A. He was -~ His primary -- Under me his primary job was the webmaster, so -- Q. "My work has included the duties associated with website design, application and administration." And currently he reports to Gary Bateman. Yeah. I do not know of him ever working on applications. Only web design, which are not the same thing. Q@. Well, I don’t think I understand what you're telling me. A. Well, you're saying he's -- he said he worked on ~~ Q. Website -- A. -- on application and administration. I am not aware -- Under my leadership he never was a part of the application development team. MR. LaMARCA Can you give us the dates you're referring to? THE WITNESS: So from mid-2007 through late 2011, edly 2012, when we made the transition of him going to IT, he did not work on application development. Website and HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 117 application development are two completely different things in the IT world. 2 So in the year 2011 and in the year 2012 he would not have worked on applications. Is that a correct understanding? A. That would be correct. Q. And that would include the PERFECT system? A. That's correct. The PERFECT system is an application. Q. And so it is your testimony under oath that he did not work on the PERFECT system; is that correct? A. No. He worked on developing that front page of the website, but that's not working on the PERFECT system. The PERFECT system is an application development. @. And he currently works with Richard Thielman. Thielman? A. Thielman. 1 actually think, though, his direct supervisor is Martin Moen, just for clarification purposes. Q. What are Mr. Thielman's duties? A. There are -- Gary Bateman is the head, our chief information officer, and then he has HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 a8 19 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) nis two managers. One is Martin Moen, who is what we would term the LAN side, and that's I? jargon, which Mark fits in. Richard Thielman would be on the application side, which Mark is not a part of. @. So he's lying when he says " omy current capacity as an employee for Iowa Workforce Development I work with Richard Thielman" -- A. Well, Richard Thielman is an IT person. Q. Stop. AL Sorry. @. Don't interrupt me, please, because that makes the duty of the court reporter impossible. Paragraph 6 says "In my current capacity as an employee for Iowa Workforce Development I work with Richard Thielman, whose title is IT application manager." Is that statement false? A. The statement is false that -- Richard Thielman is not his manager. Richard is a manager of a“difterent area. Q. So this statement is false? A. In my perception of the statement, it HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 119 is false. Q. "As an employee of Iowa Workforce Development, I have knowledge of the Paperless Electronic Records Filing and Electronic Case-management Technology System and have previously been assigned to perform work during the development and planning phase of the project Is that true or false? A. During the development and planning phase of the PERFECT system, Mark would have been reporting to me, and I did not assign him to work on that. If he was working on it, he was doing it outside of the direction of his manager. Q. Who else has ~~ MR. LaMARCA: She asked if it was true or false. Do you have a comment on that? THE WITNESS: As far as I know it to be, it's false. He was not working on it. 2 So who else has the responsibility of directing his work? A During this time period? It was me alone. Now it would be Martin Moen in IT. 2 So it is your testimony under oath that HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 un 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 13 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 120 Mr. French never worked on the PERFECT system; correct? A. He never worked on the development of the application of the PERFECT system. Q. So if he was doing that, then he was working for who? A. I don't have an answer to that question, because then he was not working on what he was supposed. to be working on. Well, how did he get his work assignments? A. From me. Could Elisabeth Buck or someone else assign him? A. Well, the director of the department can always supersede and assign, yes. Q. Well, can -- A. But she would have notified me. Q. Dave Neil, could he assign him when he was the labor commissioner? No, because the resources have to be managed appropriately. Unfortunately, we have one webmaster and a lot of projects, and™we have to manage the projects. And I worked on that piece at the time when Mark reported to me, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qa 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ag 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) aa prioritizing, helping him prioritize projects. @. So as far as you know, what would he have done, if anything, with respect to the PERFECT system? A, Developed one landing page, which is separate -- The PERFECT system -- I can't even call it working with the PERFECT system because he wasn't involved in the development of the PERFECT system. He was -- He worked on the look and feel of a -- the prettiness of a front page, where somebody would just go to before they went into the PERFECT system. Q. Has that ever been developed? A. It was developed. It's been taken down because the PERFECT system isn’t up and running. @. So at some point there was a landing page for the PERFECT system? A. A singular web page that anyone could build in 30 minutes. @. So if he built that page, he would have done that in a very brief period of time? A. Absolutely. Q. "My knowledge of the system includes the basic function and infrastructure of the system, as well as the design and interaction HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 122 with agency websites Is that true or false? A. I don't know how he would understand the basic function and infrastructure of the system because he wasn't working on it. Q. So that would be false? A. In my perception, yes. Q. "In my current capacity as an employee for Towa Workforce Development, I have had the responsibility and opportunity to work with Towa Workers’ Compensation Commissioner Chris Godfrey and several of his staff in the Iowa Division of Workers' Compensation." Is that true or false? A. I would say that’s probably true. @. During the time that he, Mark French, was working with you, would that be true? A. Yes. Commissioner Godfrey had a staff member who we would call a web author that updated the textual pieces of their section of the website. So Mark would have worked with that person. @. "On or about June 22nd, 2011, “I was directly and personally informed by Kerry Koonce, the communications director for Iowa HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1s 20 a. 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 123 Workforce Development and member of the WD director's leadership team, that I was to cease working on the Division of Workers’ Compensation PERFECT system and that I could only finish existing tasks." Is that true or false? A. The date is incorrect @. I beg your pardon? A. The date is incorrect. Q. What is the date? A. The meeting took place in approximately February -- on February 22nd of 2010 at the direction of Director Buck, because the front-facing singular page he was creating did not meet the regular brand -- what we call brand standards, look and feel for the website. He was told to stop doing that, to create a page that was based on the look and feel of the brand standards of the website. so yes, he could finish that singular page, but it needed to match the look and feel. Otherwise his duties did not involve anything else in the PERFECT system, and he needed to focus on what his actual duties were. @. So he's making up this whole business HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 14 15 16 47 18 1g 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 124 about working on the PERFECT system. Is that what you're telling me? A. I'm telling you that under the @irection of the department, he had no authority to be working on the PERFECT system. Q@. So he's making it up? A. If he did it without the direction of someone, I can't answer that question. Q. And if he did it, it would be wrong? A. Correct. Because it's not what he was supposed to be working on. Q. And how do you fix the date that you say that the actions in paragraph 10 were taken? A, Because I went back and looked. 1 remember the meeting taking place. The meeting took place. We had Director Buck, Deputy Director Walsh, Chris Godfrey was in the room, I was in the room. It took place in the Stanley Conference Room. And it was Director Buck stating that websites will all match the same brand standards of the agency. I went back in my calendar and pulled the date: : Q. Do you see Exhibit 1? MR. LaMARC: You mean Exhibit 1 HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq to Mr. (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 125 French's affidavit? MS. CONLIN: Yes. A. Yes. Q. Have you seen that before? A. I saw it when I saw the affidavit. Q@. And it says "June 22nd, 2011" -- I'm sorry. A. Yes, that's what it says. @. Yes, June 22nd. "I was told to quit working on Godfrey's site - PERFECT" -- I can't read that. AL Yeah. @. So A. I don't know when this -~ MR. LaMARCA: Looks like "Front & back end" to me, but -- A "only on existing," which would have been correct. He was told to work on the existing page he was working on, But I disagree with the date. And I don't know when this note was written. 2. Well, he says it was written at the time that you communicated that to him. A. Well, but then he wouldn't have wrote “on or about," in my opinion. He would have HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910 but not more.10 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1g 20 21 22 24 25 ca (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ae just wrote the date. Q@. Well, why do you say that? A. Because if I'm writing something down the date that it was communicated to me, it's not on or about. It's the date it happened. Q. Well, it says "June 22nd, 2011," and then “on or about" above that; correct? A. Right. So I disagree with his statement. Q. He says "I made note of this communication soon after being provided this information, The note made and attached hereto as Exhibit 1. I have maintained and protected the original of Exhibit 1 since its creation and no alteration or amendment to Exhibit 1 has been made Did you ever have any communication with him in June of 2011 about what he should and should not be working on? . Well, of course. I was his supervisor. I would have been talking to him about things he should have been working on. But the PERFECT issue was décided the previous year, in 7010. MR. LaMARCA: Okay. I wanted to get a date on that. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 aL 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) aed A. On February 22 of 2010, that meeting. When that meeting took place, that's the last conversation we had about the PERFECT system. @. You and = A. Mark French had 2 discussion after -- following the meeting with Lis Buck, Joe Walsh, and Chris Godfrey about the brand standards of the website. @. And then from that date in 2010 until this date in 2014 you've had no communication with Mark French about the PERFECT system? A. Correct. @. "On Maren 18th, 2014, between 11 and 12 Iwas present in my regular workplace when I observed and distinctly heard verbal communications and discussions between Gary Bateman, Richard Thielman, Ken Rausch, and Kerry Koonce." Is that a true statement? A. Yes. I called for a meeting with those individuals, and it took place at that time. Q. "The communication occurred in an open 2 Bast Conference Room close to my workstation cubicle, allowing me to overhear the statements being made by the participants.” HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1. 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ee Do you know where Mr. French customarily works? . Yes, I do, The conference room door would have been closed, as I would always close the conference room door out of courtesy to people around, but Mark French's office is a little bit down a hallway, around a corner, and a couple cubes separating it from the conference room back. It's not directly across from it or anything like that. Q. What does the statement "open 2 East Conference Room" mean? Do you know? A. TI have no idea what he means by that. We call that conference room the 2 East Conference Room, but I don't know. what he means by “open. Q. Do the walls go to the ceiling? A. Yes, they do. Q. "fhe verbal communication became quite loud and heated." Did that happen? AL Yes. I was frustrated Q. Arid With whom were you frustrated? I was frustrated with the contractor that we had hired to work on the Drupal system, HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491020 al 12 13 a4 15 16 a7 18 1g 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 129 which is not is the PERFECT system, the new website system. I did not feel he was performing at the level that we were expecting. And this meeting I had called to ask ~~ we were getting close to where his current contract was going to be expiring. We had to make a decision as to whether to continue it or not, and I did not want to continue it. -I wanted to find a new contractor, because I was not happy with the work. @. Who wanted to continue with the - A. It wasn't so much somebody wanting to continue. It was pushing back at me about why T wasn't happy with it. And I wasn't happy because the systems weren't working the way that we wanted them to. Drupal is a back end system of a website. It's basically kind of like a content management section. It's where you put all of your information in. And we were kind of - we had it broke into four sections. We have a section that is for the workers’ compensation commission, # section for the labor commission, a section for the field offices, and 4 section for everything else. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 qt 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 1g 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 130 We only stood up the everything else because that's the bigger piece of it. The contractor wanted to stand up the other three sections so that those areas could begin putting information in. I disagreed with that because it wasn't working right and I didn’t want to stand up something that -- for people to start using that wasn't working right. That was me protecting everybody else, the commissions and the field. I wasn't going to have them start using a system that I felt wasn't functioning. @. Did you hire the people to do the website? A. No. That's a -- The state has a -- 1 can't tell you the name of the vendor, I'm sorry, but they have a vendor that's under contract. For contract IT you have a specific place you have to go through. Q. And that's where you got -- I'm uncertain what Drupal -~ A. Drupal is a system. It's a web development -- It's a system. It's not a person. Drupal is -- Like the PERFECT is an application. Drupal is an application that you HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 131 build the website on. @. And so you hadn't hired any of the contractors working on this system? A. No, but 7 was paying for the current one, and I wasn't happy with the work, so therefore I did not want to extend the contract. I wanted them to find a new person. Q. Was that Delynn overturf or someone else? A. It was someone else. This individual's name was Jeremy. @. And how much were you paying him? A. Well, it comes out -~ well, out of my budget, about $150 an hour. Part of that goes to the firm that we have to pay, that the state has a contract with. @. Well, what did Delynn work on? A. You know, she was a project manager in If. And I'm sorry, I didn't have a lot of interaction with her. @. She was also a contract? A. I believe -- I believe so. she's not with the agency any longer. ai @. In terms of this website design, there was just Jeremy working on it? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 at 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 ag 20 ay 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a A. Right. Drupal is a newer platform. we did not have Drupal expertise in-house. Mark French does not have Drupal expertise to build on that, And that's the platform that the state had said all agencies needed to move to. It does not behoove us to hire a full-time permanent person for this when you're talking about standing it up, so we were going with a contractor that had the specific skills. I did not feel that the contractor that had been selected by the firm was giving us our money's worth, so I did not want to extend that contract. I wanted to find a new one, which we did. Q. And who now works on the website design? A. The person's name is John. We took him ~ He stood up the Department of Revenue's site, the Iowa Department of Revenue's new site. We were very happy with what we saw and the work done there. So when his contract ended with the Department of Revenue, we brought his on over to work on ours. I @. A different company than Jeremy was with? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 aL 12 13 14 15 16 a7 1g 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 133 A. No, It's the same company. It's just the person contracted through the company. @. And when did you bring in John? A. Nine months ago, maybe. @. And when -- A. No. Maybe -- @. When did you bring in Jeremy? A. Jeremy was only here for three months. And when that meeting took place in March, that was right towards the end of his three months. Q. Is the website designed for IWD now completed? A. No, it is not completed. Q. When will it be completed? A. We're projecting about another six months for having everything done. Q. And it is John who is working on it now? A. Correct. Q. And why is it not completed? A. Because we have the second largest website in state government, and there's a lot of information to stand up. @. Did you have a timetable for completion? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910190 aa 12 43 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 134 A. . My original timetable was six months before we are now, but with the change in contractors and such, that's put that back. @. So when was it supposed to be -- A. My goal was to have it done this last summer. June 30th of 2014. Q. And it's not done yet, but it will be done in about six months, you think? A. Correct. . And the reason you give for that is because it was a change in contractor? AL Um-hum. Q. Your answer is yes? . Yes. My answer is yes. Q. Let's go back to the affidavit. “During that discussion Richard Thielman stated that IT applications was not going to provide any resources to the Division of Workers’ Compensation." Is that true or false? . That's false. And that statement does not make any sense for this meeting, because IT applications does not have anything to do with website stuff Was Mr. Thielman in the meeting? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 135 Yes, he was in the meeting, because he's kind of in charge of most of the contractors in IT. @. And according to Mr. French, he goes on to say "nor would any further assistance be provided to Commissioner Godfrey Do you remember anything like that? A. No. The only statements that were made was I stated we were not standing up the systems for work comp or labor when they don't work right. @. And why did they not work right? A. Because -- This is back to the bad contractor we had that we weren't -- Jeremy, that we were not extending. @. Does it have anything to do with the PERFECT system? A, No. They are not connected whatsoever. Q. ie goes on to say "The communications describing the refusal to provide computer and website services referred directly to Commissioner Godfrey by name. I directly recall Richard Thielman stating that nothing was going to be done to assist Chris Godfrey and his HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LID. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 as 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) oe division." That is all, according to you, false; correct? A. Right. We would refer to them by the division. We would say workers' compensation and labor, because it's an effect across everybody in that division, not one person. Q. And that is what he says is Exhibit 2 to the document. A. Yes. I don't -- I don't disagree with the date of the meeting. Mark French was not in the meeting. Q. And it is your statement that he could not A. Actually, to be honest with you, Gary Bateman -~ I see in his note back here on the exhibit it says "Kerry Koonce, Rich Thielman, Gary Bateman, and Ken Rausch.” Q. Right. A. But Gary Bateman was not in the meeting Q. Was there any meeting at which the people indicated in this note were present? A. We have biweekly meetings on discussions of stuff, so yes, we -- all four of HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 137 those people would be in them at one time, but this specific meeting they were not. And I went back and looked at my -~ Gary Bateman wasn't even invited to the meeting. He wasn! needed in it. @. So the meeting that you know about on March 18th between 11 and 12 was one at which Mr. Bateman was not present? AL Correct. @. Do you ever recall hearing Gary Bateman state that Chris Godfrey is not on our team? A. I've never personally heard those statements. Q. Have you ever heard about those statements? A. Only reading it somewhere. I'm sorry. Was it in this, maybe? No, it's not in this Q. And is it your testimony that paragraph 15, "I spent considerable time working with Chris Godfrey on PERFECT and the outward-facing website implementing PERFECT" -- is that true or false? A. I can't answer that as true or false. I can answer that as he worked on one singular page, that should not have taken more than 30 HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 at 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 138 minutes to stand up. So if he spent a considerable amount of time, I have to wonder what he was doing. Q. Is the one thing that you say he was authorized to do the outward-facing website? A. It's a singular web page. It's not even a website. It's just one page. @. “Did you ever phone him about not working with Chris Godfrey? A, I told him to not work on the -- as we've discussed previously, not work on the PERFECT system, to finish the page based on the agency's brand standards. Q. But that was the 2010 meeting? A. That's correct. when Lis Buck was the head -~ A. The director. Q. You just can't interrupt me. You just have to wait until I finish my questions. I'm sorry. Q. It is your testimony that the meeting at which it was decided that he would not work further onthe web page was “in 2010, whert Lis Buck was the head of Iowa Workforce Development; correct? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 139 A. It's not that he would not work further. It's that he needed to work on that singular page under our brand standards, with the layout that the agency is supposed to use. He was not using that layout. @. Did you call him about that? A. I believe I -~ I probably did phone him. I probably phoned him after the meeting. @. And you don't know anything about his contact with Chris Godfrey; is that correct? AL Oh, no. Q. Then let's look at 123. You say that he served as the webmaster for IWD's websites in the Communications Bureau until approximately Jane of 2011. What happened after June of 20117 A. ‘That's when I indicated we made the transition. I knew it was 2011, 2012 where his position went under IT. Q@. I'm sorry. T thought that it was not until 2012 -- A. No. 2011, 2012. I can't remember the exact dates unless I'm looking at something. And that was -- we were following a process that a lot of state departments were doing. They HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 14 1s 16 a7 18 19 20 2a 22 24 2s cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 140 were moving into that. @. and this Drupal system, do you know how much money was totally spent? A. Drupal is free. It's an open source system. Q. But there had been communications -- I mean, there had been money spent on the project; correct? . There's been money spent on the contractor to -~ but as far as the cost of Drupal, no. @. So the meeting that you had with Lis Buck, was that about making a new website for the division? A. Are you referencing the one where Lis -- @. 2010, yes. A. No, That was specifically around that front-facing page for the PERFECT system. Q. It did have something to do with the PERFECT system, according to you? A. The front page, but not the development of the PERFECT system. : ia Saas Q. And the front page is just one page? A. One landing web page. HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a 12 13 a4 15 16 WwW 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ca (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 141 @. and that did get stood up at some point, but it didn't go anyplace? A. It's been taken down because the PERFECT system isn't up and running. That page contained a section on it where there were -~ I'm going to call them training manuals, links to training guides for people of like how to use -- to teach attorneys how to use the PERFECT system. There's no point in having that standing up there when the PERFECT system doesn't work, so it was taken down. @. So you could go from the outward-facing page to a training manual at some point? A. Right. So if -- That's not going to be fair to her. The web page looked like it had two sides to it. "Welcome to Iowa's PERFECT system," you know, kind of at the top. This side was like a link to a PDF document that would say "Training," you know, learning how to use it, creating users, et cetera. And then the other side was meant to be where your user name and password would go into. But since the PERFECT system is not up and running, maintaining and keeping HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 as 16 ay 18 19 20 2a 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 142 those other documents out for the public is kind of a disservice to them, because it gives the perception that the PERFECT system is ready to go, and it's not. @. Was any part of Mr. French's duties like getting domain names, or do you know? . Martin Moen handles the purchase of our domain names. Q. So as far as you know, Mr. French hasn't - He could send a notification to Martin. Q. Did Mark French attend daily sessions known as JAD sessions? A. I don't know what a JAD session is. Q. Was a new website created for the Workers' Compensation Division? It's in process. @. Tt hasn't been created yet? A. No. That's part of what I said, We're about six months out. Q. Well, that's not exactly what I'm asking. AL I'm sorry. aa a Q. Now if I go to IWD, doesn't it have all the divisions listed? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 11 12 13 14 15 16 qT 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 143 A. Correct. There is a -- That's not new, though. That's been there for years. Q. Well, you can press on "Workers? Compensation Division” and get to the workers! Compensation Division; correct? A. Right. You would get to information on their decisions, their laws, things like that. @. And when was that created? A. ‘That was created prior to me coming to IND, so I don't know when it was created. @. And there haven't been any changes in it? A. Textual changes, like updated information, but major look and feel or anything like that, no. Q. So that has been the look and feel of the website since before you were present? A. Correct. Q. Now, you indicated that you paid for Jeremy and for John. Do you know what the total has been? A. The total that's budgeted for it is $120,000. That hasn't all been expended yet. Q. That's the total budgeted for both Jeremy and John? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 144 A. Correct. @. Do you know whether or not Chris Godfrey tried to make an all new website in 2010? A, All I know of what was being worked on was the front singular page for the PERFECT system. I do not —~ I'm not aware of him trying to create a website that was completely separate. @. Then you go on to say in Exhibit 123 "In June 2011, due to agency reorganization, the webmaster position was transferred out of the Communications Bureau to the Information Technology Bureau for management." You've already told me about that; correct? A. Correct. And then we have this comment that you make on or about June 22nd. You say that if he had kept contemporaneous notes -- where does he claim to keep meticulous notes? A. I didn't put that piece in. He says -~ There's a -+ Can 1 refer ‘to this again? MR. LaMARCA: Yes. He says under number 10, starting on HUNEY-VAUGEN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 14 12 13 14 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 145 page 2 of his affidavit "I made note of this communication soon after being provided this information. The note I made is attached. 1 have maintained and protected the original. My stance is if he made note of that as soon as it happened, he would not need to put “on or about." He would know the date that it happened. Q. But where does it say that he claims to keep meticulous notes? A, I did not put “meticulous notes” in parentheses. That's my statement. Q. what? A. 1 said "If Mark French maintains the meticulous" -- If he maintains them. I do not say he claims to maintain them. I say if he maintains the meticulous notes he claims to, he claims that he kept these notes, then he would not need to be "on or about." That's my -- my statement. Q. Well, it says "If Mark French maintains the meticulous notes he claims to keep." I'm asking you where A, He did not -- The word "meticulous" is my word. It's not in parentheses. But he HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 ql 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) a claims to have kept all these notes. Q. One note. Two. e's got two of them attached. Q. And what makes that meticulous? A. That's my word. If it's -- It's a very detailed note that he wrote here, in my opinion, Q. Tt is? A. It's very detailed for supposedly what he's tracking. @. Well, it contains how many words? A. Right. But "I was told to quit working on" -- I'm not sure if that's the word "on" —- “Godfrey's site - PERFECT front" something, something "back end, once in existing by Kerry Koonce." Q@. Okay. ‘That's about 20 words? A. Okay. But my -- my statement is that he's claiming to have kept these notes and that he -- he stated that he protected these notes, which means he must consider them to be very important, if you're going to protect the notes. You protect something you consider to be important: Then therefore, if it was me, and I considered it to be very important, I would HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 1 12 13 14 45 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) oan not need it to be on or about. I would have had the exact -- I would have been very clear on my date. @. And that's just you; right? A, That's correct. That's my statement. This is my statement. @. Yes. And so you say that because you would have done it that way, the fact that he didn't do it that way means that he is not telling the truth; is that correct? A. No. That's not what I'm alleging. I'm alleging that if this conversation took place as he says, he would not need to write "on or about" if he made those notes as he said he did following the conversation. @. And your sole reason for that is because you would not do it that way? A. I don't think the average person would write “on or about." I believe they would write the date of when it happened. @. How many people have you discussed this with? AL I haven't. I just said I believe. Q. How do you know what the average person would do? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD (515) 288-491010 qn 12 13 4 1s 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) ee A. It's my perception that the average person, if they felt something was important, they would document it carefully. @. And "on or about" to you is not documenting carefully? No, it is not, in my opinion. And your source of information with respect to what the average person would do is what? A. What T've seen other people do in different types of situations, the types of notes I see people take. People take dates and times. @. And you go into the conversation that happened with Director Buck? Correct. Q@. And then I think that we've covered that, unless there's anything you wish to add to that paragraph of your October 6th note. No. Q. No, we have not covered it? A. No, There's nothing I wish to add. Q. ~ And then there was a meeting that took place on March 18th, and you say it was between Gary Bateman -- Do you see where you say that? HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-491010 a. 12 13 14 15 16 Ww 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cq (DEPOSITION OF KERRY KOONCE) 149 A. And that's my mistake there, I'm sorry, because I think I was referencing what Mark wrote. @. Well, you say "There was a meeting that took place on March 18th between Gary Bateman, Richard Thielman, Ken Rausch, and myself." And now you're saying that Gary Bateman was not there? A. When I went back and looked at my calendar again afterwards, Gary was not invited to the meeting @. Could he have just shown up? A, That would -- No, I would not have expected Gary to just show up. Q. Se the A. Twas referencing -- 2. Do you have a calendar that has these meetings on it? AL Yes. Q. And it does not include Gary Bateman; is that correct? A. Correct. It would be our Outlook calendar that the agencies use through Microsoft. Q. "I requested this meeting be scheduled HUNEY-VAUGHN COURT REPORTERS, LTD. (515) 288-4910