Spiritual Healing

The Quantum Medicine of Dan J. Benor, M.D.

Russ Mason, M.S.

EDITORS NOTE: Prior to commencing this interview, Russ

Mason told Daniel J. Benor, M.D., that Mrs. Mason (Russ mother)
was suffering from acute neck pain, something that had a somewhat
sudden onset and that was causing her a lot of distress. Dan, as he
prefers to be called, offered to talk with her on the phone and, within
10 m in utes , h er us e of a self-h ealin g tech niqu e ca lled W H E E
(described in the interview) lessened her pain from an intensity of 10
to a 6. The next day, Mrs. Masons pain was nearly gone. When Russ
wrote to thank Dan for his kindness, Dan replied that it was she who
had activated her own healing process; he was merely her guide.

Background

an is the founder of The DoctorHealer Network in England (headquartered in London), is in private practice,
and works at a clinic and day hospital in Medford, New
Jersey. He is a wholistic psychiatrist whose range of treatment
blends elements from intuitive and spiritual awareness, spiritual
healing (e.g., Reiki and Therapeutic Touch), MBTs* (e.g., WHEE,
EFT ), chakra psychotherapies, transactional analysis, gestalt
therapy, hypnotherapy, meditation, imagery and relaxation (part
o f p s y c h on e u r o im m u n o log y ) , d r e am a n a ly s i s , a n d ot h e r
approaches to wellness.
Dan has taught this spectrum of methods internationally for
15 years to people who are involved in wholistic, intuitive, and
spiritual approaches to caring, health, and personal development. He believes that spiritual healing introduces subtle energy
medicine and spiritual awareness into integrative care and can
be appreciated best via experiential learning. He has also written

*MBTs = meridian based therapies; often called energy psychology; used

to address focal psychologic problems.
WHEE = Wholistic hybrid EMDR and EFT; designed by Dan; centers on

tapping the right and left sides of the body while reciting affirmations, as
described in the interview and at www.wholistichealingresearch.com/Articles/Selfheal.htm EMDR = Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing; stimulates the right and left sides of the body rhythmically to help the
brain reprocess traumatic experiences. EFT = Emotional Freedom Technique;
uses hand and finger tapping or pressing on acupoints on parts of the body,
w h i le r e pe at in g af fi rm a tio n s as se lf - h eal in g to r el iev e s tr e ss ; s ee
www.emofree.com for more information on this technique.

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a number of books and articles about spiritual and/or wholistic

healing, serves on the editorial boards on several alternative
m edical journals, is a Fou nding Diplomate of the American
Board of Holistic Medicine, and is a Coordinator of the Council
for Healing.

The Interview
Russ Mason: How would you define spiritual healing?
Dan J. Benor: I take the term spiritual healing from common
usage in the United Kingdom, where I lived and worked for 10
years. Other names for spiritual healing include psychic, psi,
mental (used for many years in the Index Medicus), faith, and
paranormal healing; biological psychokinesis; and distant mental
influence on living systems, to mention only a few.
I often refer to this simply as healing, but want to be clear
that I am not merely discussing healing on physical and psychological levels. I prefer the term spiritual healing because I find
that involvement in healing has opened meand many others
to a personal spiritual awareness.
For scientific purposes, spiritual healing is a systematic, purposeful intervention by one or more persons aiming to help
another living being (person, animal, plant, or other living system) to improve their conditions by means of focused intention,
hand contact, or movements of the hands near the body. Spiritual
healing is brought about without the use of conventional energetic, mechanical, or chemical interventions. Some healers attribute
spiritual healing to God, Christ, other higher powers, spirits,
universal or cosmic forces or energies; biological healing energies
or forces residing in the healer; psychokinesis (mind over matter); or self-healing powers or energies latent in the healee.
RM: How does the healing actually occur?
DJB: Healing occurs on many levels, including body, emotions, mind, relationships with other people and the environment, and spirit.
By the way, I am not promoting a religious belief, nor do I feel
my views are the only way of understanding healing. I respect
the views of others to hold their own explanations of healing.
There are two broad categories of healing. In the first, prayers
or meditation for the ill persons return to health are conducted
either by an individual or a group. The healer, or healers, may be
at the side of the healee or may be many miles away. The second
form of healing involves some variation of a laying-on of hands.
Healers place their hands either on or near the body and may
move them slowly or in sweeping fashion around the body.

ALTERNATIVE & COMPLEMENTARY THERAPIESJUNE 2003

No massage or manipulation of the body is given in most types
of healing, although healing can be incorporated as a part of massage and oth er therapies. All healing is much more effective
when the healee participates fully in his or her own healing. This
can be achieved through lifestyle changes, such as eating properly, avoiding toxin s, or exercising, as well as through healing
practicesrelaxation, meditation, engaging in spiritual practices,
and developing ones own healing abilities.
RM: How often are treatments given?
DJB: Treatments are usually at intervals of a week but may be
more frequent in acute problems or less frequent as treatment
progresses. One can usually expect gradual improvements in
physical and psychological conditions over a period of weeks or
months.
R M : On e o ften reads about people having sp ontaneous
remissions from cancer, or a sudden improvement of symptoms. Are these miracle cures brought about by spiritual
healing?
DJB: It is unfortunate that the media have focused on instantaneous, miracle cures that occur only rarely in isolated individuals. This has set up unrealistic expectations. Some patients, who
might have benefited from a series of healing treatments, have
quit because a single treatment that did not produce an immediate cure. However, the reverse may also occur. Improvement
may be so rapid that it is unsettling. For instance, although a
patient may want to be free of a chronic pain, he or she may have
gotten used to having that pain as a companion that gives that
patient excuses to avoid something unpleasant or a way of asking for attention from those around him or her.
RM: What does the practitioner do in a case like that?
DJB: Counseling may be helpful in such a situation, combined
with spiritual healing.
RM: What conditions best respond to spiritual healing?
DJB: Almost any physical and emotional condition can be
helped to some degree with healing. Most physical painssuch
as tension headaches, migraines, backaches, diabetic neuropathy,
phantom limb painmay respond rapidly. In some instances
there is an initial brief increase in pain. This is generally a positive sign as it seems to signify a shifting of the bodys energies
before the pain is released. Anxiety responds readily to healing,
and many people find healing treatments very relaxing.
R M : W h at ab out com m on illn esses, s uch as diabetes or
arthritis?
D JB : T he comm on illnes ses tha t re spond w ell to hea lin g
include arthritis, hypertension, burns, cancer (pain, malaise, sideeffects of radio- and chemotherapy), early and complicated labor,
fractures, irritable bowel syndrome, asthma, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, and many others. Some healers find
that d iabetes m ellitus may re spond so quickly that insulin
requirements are rapidly lessened. Healees must be alerted that
they may have to lower their insulin doses.

131
S p ir itu a l h e a lin g w o r k s
w ell a s a c om plem ent to
m o s t o t h e r t h e r a p ie s a n d
m ay, in fact, be a part of
m any therapists interven tions e ve n w ithout th eir
awareness.
RM: Can you explain
what actually happens during spiritual healing?
D JB : H eale rs report that
several interpenetrating, subtle e ne rgy fie ld s su rrou nd
t he physical body. They
claim that the physical body
is an expression of the states
of these energy fields, each Dan J. Benor, M.D., Medford, New
Jersey.
of which is distinctly related
to an aspect of being (physical, emotion al, mental, and
spiritual). The fields are said to be hierarchically organized. The
emotional and mental fields can, therefore, also influence the
physical body.
These subtle energy fields extend to various distances from the
physical body. Though only a few sensitive people are able to
perceive these subtle energies as visual halos or auras of color
around the body, many people can sense them with their hands.
One has only to hold ones hands near each other and then move
them slowly apart and back together to sense these. About 90
percent of doctors and nurses I have instructed in workshops on
healing are able to perceive these, and 2575 percent of general
audiences can do so as well. (The lower percents are among academics and others who have difficulties in letting go of thinking
about what they are doing in order simply to do it or be with it
and let their bodies experience these energies.)
The human body is a very sensitive instrument for the perception of subtle energies. This presents problems of noise in perceiving and interpreting human reports. There is also a wide
variability in healers subjective experiences of perceiving and
directing energies. Most people who are gifted with healing are not
academically or research oriented. These problems have contributed to the difficulties of science in accepting reports of healers.
Though these bioenergy experiences may seem strange, early in the
1900s, Albert Einstein theorized that matter and energy are interchangeable, and quantum physics has amply verified this. Similarly, we can see that energy medicine and allopathic medicine simply
represent the two sides of Einsteins equation, E = mc2.
RM: Why is it difficult for many practitioners in allopathic
medicine to accept this kind of healing as a valid treatment
option?
DJB: Modern science went throug h a similar process with
quantum physics. Some of the observations of modern physics,
which relate to the energy side of the equation, are counterintuitive to conventional physics, and to everyday, common sense.

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ALTERNATIVE & COMPLEMENTARY THERAPIESJUNE 2003

To Contact Dr. Dan J. Benor

Daniel J. Benor, M.D.
P.O. Box 502
Medford, NJ 08055
Phone (609) 714-1885
Fax (609) 714-3553
E-mail: center@ijhc.org
http://www.ijhc.org

In conventional physics and medicine, linear interactions are

the rule. (Note the prejudicial term: rule.) Allopathic medicine
deals with measurable forces which produce measurable effects
in material objects or chemicals. In quantum physics, as with
spiritual healing, it has been shown that nonlocal effects may
occur. This may explain distant healing through inte nt and
prayers.
M uch has bee n made of the similaritie s betw een m odern
physics and psi phenom ena in excellent books, such as Fritjof
Capras The Tao of Physics. An electron may be understood both
as a particle and as a wave function. Single electrons may bilocate when passing through two slits. Time may flow backwards
as well as forwards. The universe is so intricately interwoven that
every element in it is ultimately influenced by every other element. An event may be considered as both occurring and not
occurringuntil an observer intervenes and determines which is
the case. In other words, the observer cannot be separated from
the system which is being observed. It took several decades for
scientists to accept these counterintuitive observations of modern
physics.
A similar process is under way with spiritual healing. There
may be greater difficulty with the acceptance of healing, however, as this involves a shift in worldviews with far more personal
consequences than in quantum physics. Many people find it
threatening to learn that another person might influence them
through thoughts or intentions. Rather than examine and deal
with their discomforts, they prefer to reject the threatening concepts and to distance themselves from those who propose them.
This is analogous to the ancient tradition of killing the messenger who bears bad news. People who advocate a belief in healin g m a y b e d is c r e d it e d a n d m a y s u f f e r v a r io u s t y p e s o f
discrimination against them.
RM: How can allopathic doctors change their beliefs about
healing?
DJB: The research data is crucial to doctors in considering
whether they would have anything to do with healing. Out of
191 controlled studies of healing, in my annotated review in Volume I of Healing Research (see box entitled Recommended Reading b y D r . D a n J. B en or) , 124 sh ow sig nific an t eff ec ts o n
humans, animals, plants, bacteria, yeasts, cells in vitro, enzymes,

Capra F. The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between

Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism. Boston, Shambhala, 2000.

and DN A. Selecting ou t the more rigorous stud ies, 25 show

effects at P<0.01 and another 12 at P<0.020.05. This is an impressive series of studies.
However, the research alone will not bring about changes. In
addition to convincing people at an intellectual level, they must
be introduced to healing experientially. One would think that the
observation of clinical changes in patients as a result of healing
might be convincing but it usually is not. Most doctors ignore
such occurrences or dismiss them as either misdiagnoses or
spontaneous remissions (which is a convenient vehicle for
admitting ignorance while not having to reexamine ones theories).
On an individual basis, it is very difficult to change the views
of health care professionals. Many physicians are afraid of peer
censure, which can be brutally vicious. Doctor s, nurses, and
r e s ea r ch e rs m ay im p er il th e ir pr of es s ion al ad v an c em e n t,
research grants, and jobs by advocating something which their
peers or supervisors do not accept. In many ways, this is akin to
the treatments received by heretics who espoused beliefs which
differed from those of their religious compatriots. This has led
some to suggest that scientism is the religion of the Western
world.
I do not criticize people who are slow to assimilate new observations and theories. It took me some years before I was ready to
explore the development of my own healing gifts and several
years more before I integrated spiritual healing into my practice
of psychotherapy. Ive found that getting doctors and nurses
together in groups with healers helps them to explore their concerns. When one doctor lets on that hes seen a good response in
a patient from healing, and a second allows that someone in her
own family responded well to healing, the ice is broken. Each
empowers the others to speak up. Gradually, with several meetings over a number of months, the process of healers rubbing
elbows with health care professionals leads to greater mutual
understanding and to cross-referrals of patients.
RM: Although it is difficult to generalize, how do you think
the public views spiritual healing?
DJB: The public is learning to appreciate healing and other
complementary therapies much more quickly than many health
care professionals. One of my favorite cartoons is of a patient
standing before the receptionists desk, asking: Does the doctor
hug? Members of the public, voting with their dollars, are bringing about greater acceptance of complementary therapies in the
U.S. As most of your readers know, the entire field of nonallopathic approaches to wellness has grown substantially since 1990.
RM: Many of the alternative and complementary therapies
are physiologically basedchiropractic, herbs, oxygen therapy,
and so on. It seems that spiritual healing is the last frontier of
healing treatments.
DJB: Yes, and that is because healing opens us to our own personal spirituality.
RM: Please explain a little more about that.
DJB: Spirituality is an awareness which has atrophied in our

ALTERNATIVE & COMPLEMENTARY THERAPIESJUNE 2003

society. Western culture is something of an aberration when
compared to the majority of other cultures, where the spiritual
dimensions are experienced and conceptualized as normal parts
of existence. In these societies, they are not paranormal, mystical, or rejected.
Again, we should clarify our terminology. When I speak of the
spiritual, I intend to address those realms or dimensions where
awareness can visit, where time future and time past are all in
the now, and where form and space are purely mental constructs.
In these dimensions, our spirits continue their existence and
developm ent between physical lifetimes. There is fascinating
research evidence for this from a wide range of psi phenomena,
including remote viewing (sometimes called traveling clairvoyance); out-of-body, near-death, and deathbed vision experiences;
apparitions (ghosts); channeling and other mediumistic phenomena; and reincarnation research.
The research evidence from these diverse fields is, overall, consistent and produces a coherent picture. From the vantage of the spiritual dimensions, our existence within the material realms of earth is
an exploration, or digression, into the very densest levels of energy.
The material body is like a garment taken up by the spirit in
order to explore particular lessons for the advancement of the
soul. In our lessons, we are repeatedly presented with choices
regarding relationships, attitudes, and actions. If we make poor
decisions, we may not graduate into the next levels of existence,
but might have to repeat the class with other teachers. If we do
graduate and leave physical existence, we might choose an elective tutorial, sticking around in our spirit bodies in order to help
those still struggling in the physical classrooms. At some point,
we move on to further personal spiritual development in universities which we cannot even begin to comprehend from the vantage of our earthly existence and awareness.
RM: How did this journey into spiritual healing begin for
you?
DJB: When I learned abou t psychoth erapy as a teenager, I
knew that was what I wanted to do. I couldnt imagine anyone
actually getting paid to do something so fascinating. I studied
psychology as my undergraduate premed major, endured the
challenges of medical school, with a years break for a National
Institutes of Mental Health research fellowship in psychiatry and
for regrouping my battered energies. I trained as a psychiatrist
19671973 (with 2 intervening years in the Air Force during the
Vietnam War), when psychiatry was mostly psychotherapy.
O ver the years, managed care has squeezed psychiatrists
towards a narrowly-specialized practice of medication management. While Ive resisted prescribing medications exclusively, it
is pretty difficult to do much psychotherapy in a 1520 minute
medication visit (the amount of time allowed under managed
care). Fortunately, I work mostly with children (in a clinic and a
day hospital) and am allowed the luxury of 30-minute sessions

Gary H. Craig is not a licensed mental health practitioner according to

the information provided at his Web site on EFT but he is an ordained

minister.

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Recommended Reading By Dr. Dan J. Benor

Dr. Dan Benor has written a series of four volumes called,
collectively, Healing Research. Volume 1 has been published and
publication is planned for the additional three volumes. For more
information on the set, visit www.wholistichealingresearch.com/
Publication information for Volume 1 is provided below.
Volume I: Scientific Validation of a Healing Revolution
South Field, MI: Vision Publications, 2001
Volume I: Scientific Validation of a Healing Revolution
Professional Supplement
South Field, MI: Vision Publications, 2002

because I have to consult with parents, teachers, school coun selors, and pediatricians, as well as pharmacists and managed
care companies; and I can do all of this in addition to speaking
with the children.
I constantly sought to develop ways of providing psychotherapy along with the medications but was unable, within my limited
timeframe, to use the psychodynamic approaches I was taught as
a psychiatric resident. EMDR was a blessing to me as well as to
my clients. I was able to use EMDR with children who had posttraumatic stress disorders, because children respond very quickly
to this approachnot having barnacles on their problems like
adults do. I also used EMDR to de-stress myself!
As I usually see children with their parents, I also taught the
more stable parents to guide their children in doing the EMDR. If
the children were mature and responsible, I encouraged them to
practice the eye movements on their own, at home or at school,
whenever they were upset. This was very helpful, for instance,
with nightmares, when traumatic memories were stimulated by
current stresses or where excessive angers erupted.
I still was concerned, however, that there might be intense emotional releases during EMDR sessions at home, which could be
retraumatizing. I then learned to use the EFT of Gary Craig and
other meridian based therapy approaches. In EFT and related therapies, one taps or presses a finger at a series of acupuncture points
on the face, chest and hand, while reciting an affirmation. Because
EFT works more rapidly than EMDR and does not evoke intense
emotional releases, EFT can be used as a self-healing technique.
RM: How do the other physicians at the clinic and hospital
view your practice of EMDR and EFT?
DJB: I had difficulty introducing EFT in my work settings.
EMDR has an extensive research base to confirm its efficacy in
treating post-traumatic stress disorders. On the basis of my certification in EMDR, I was able to obtain official permission from
the administrators where I work to use this with their clients.
Because EFT has no research base, they would not grant me perm is sion to use it. I g ave this a hard think , then turne d it
around, and now call it an affirmation technique. No one has
faulted me for using affirmations in therapy and they never mind
what clients do with their hands on their own bodies while they
recite the affirmations.

134
RM: Tell us about the WHEE technique.
DJB: In an introductory workshop by Asha Nahoma Clinton
(on Seemorg Matrix Therapy), Asha observed that alternately
tapping the eyebrow points across the bridge of the nose while
reciting the affirmation works just as well as the entire series of
EFT points. So, ever-conscious of my time limitations, I immediately started e xp loring a hybrid approach which combined
aspects of EMDR and EFT. I call it the Wholistic Hybrid EMDR
and EFT, or WHEE. EMDR suggests the use of a butterfly hug
as one of its self-treatment interventions, particularly for children. The arms are crossed so that the patients hands rest on his
or her biceps muscles, and the patient alternates tapping on each
arm with his or her hands. Instead of tapping at the eyebrows, I
often have children and parents use the butterfly hug with the
affirmation. Many find the self-hug comforting in addition to
being highly effective in combination with the affirmation.
RM: Has it been successful?
DJB: Oh yes, WHEE has been hugely successful for several reasons. It takes a fraction of the time that EFT and EMDR require. It
allows for much greater flexibility in working on target problems
within the session because it is so rapid. If the child is successful but
the parent is not, or vice versa, there is plenty of time to explore
alternative target symptoms or alternative methods of addressing
them. It is better accepted and the compliance outside the therapy
room is much higher because of this simplicity. It works marvelously well and rapidly on pains and is excellent for allergies, though it
may take several days to be effective for the latter. Because it is so
simple to do, it is also tremendously empowering and satisfying.
RM: What kinds of affirmations that you use in the WHEE
technique?
DJB: A generic affirmation adapted from EFT is: Even though
I have this (anxiety, panic, fearone has to be specific about the
nature of the problem), I completely and totally love and accept
myself, and know that God loves and accepts me completely,
wholly, and unconditionally.
A patient may, of course, use whatever other strong positive
statements suits that patient best.
Prior to doing this self-healing technique, it is helpful to assess
how strong one feels the negative feeling that he or she wants to
address. The most commonly used gauge is the Subjective Units
of Distress Scale (SUDS), where one rates distress on a scale from
0 (not bothering you at all) to 10 (the worst it could possibly feel).
After tapping for a few minutes, the patient checks the SUDS
again. The number will usually go down. He or she repeats the
assessing and tapping until it is zero. Then one can build up a
positive affirmation to replace the negative, simply stating the
positive as one taps. If the numbers dont shift after one has
tapped, one can give oneself a gentle massage on the releasing
spot, located just below the collar bone at its midpoint. No affirmation is needed here. Then the block is released and the patient
returns to tapping.

Asha Nahoma Clinton, L.C.S.W., Ph.D.

ALTERNATIVE & COMPLEMENTARY THERAPIESJUNE 2003

RM : D o all of your patients resp ond well to these tech niques?
DJB: Not all. Teenagers would often refuse to use either of
these tapping approaches outside of the therapy room. Their typical comment was: Sure, dad! Like Im going to tap my forehead
or pat my arms in front of my friends! Theyll think Im some sort
of nut case! I speculated that, if they alternated tapping with the
tongue on the teeth on the left and then on the teeth on the right,
this could work just as well, and found that indeed it does. This
has been received much better by those who are shy or uncomfortable with tapping in public.
RM: I understand it is possible for a practitioner, or another
individual, to use WHEE while providing benefit to another
recipient. Is this correct?
DJB: Yes, We call this the proxy use of WHEE. In proxy
treatments, the person receiving the treatment focuses her or his
awareness on anoth er person who is intended to receive the
treatment. Therapists may do this on themselves as proxies for
their clients.
While this may seem far-fetched, it has an excellent basis in
research as distant healing. Here is a clinical example: I visited
a healer who was babysitting a 6-year-old boy who had develo pme n ta l de la ys an d ma y hav e m ild autism . T he b oy wa s
severely frightened by the healers two dogs, who were lively
and playful. He had been in the healers hom e several times
previously and was constantly on the alert, if not alarmed, by
any approach of the animals to within several feet. Within minutes of surrogate tapping for his fears of the animals, he was
markedly less fearful and, within a few more minutes, he was
even able to pet the quieter dog. He had never been that calm
before in the animals presence, and certainly would not have
petted them.
RM: Are there situations where WHEE, or EMDR, or EFT
does not work?
DJB: Yes. A common reason is that the client has not targeted
the problem accurately in the affirmation. Another reason is that
the client has forgotten to massage the releasing point when there
is a block in the process.
RM: Are other health care practitioners using the WHEE
technique?
DJB: Oh yes. I have had enthusiastic feedback on successes
from therapists who learned WHEE through lectures and workshops which I teach around the U.S. and the rest of the world.
This is part of a growing shift of MBTs towards greater simplicity.
However, having advocated for the abbreviated procedure of
WHEE, let me step back and add that I do not see this as a cureall. I find that the MBTs are outstanding for addressing focal
traumas, fears, pains, allergies, and beliefs. For many people,
relief of these focal problems is all that they want to achieve.
But for others, deeper levels of work may require more elaborate
approaches. I have found aspects of Asha Nahoma Clintons
chakra based work (known as Seemorg Matrix Therapy) enor-

ALTERNATIVE & COMPLEMENTARY THERAPIESJUNE 2003

mously helpful to me personally and to selected clients who want
or need deeper levels of work, particularly when there is an openness to including spiritual dimensions in the focus of therapy.
I also integrate spiritual awareness and healing, along with
many other approaches in my practice, matching the therapy to
the individual needs of the client.
RM: You mentioned meditation a little earlier. How important
is this for an individualand I include doctors and healers here?
DJB: Its one of the most important things a person can do. I
have found, over the years, that what has worked best for me has
changed over time. So it has been helpful for me to know a variety of meditation approachesnot just for myself but for teaching other people as well.
RM: What is another thing people might do to enhance their
own healing?
DJB: To develop intuitive awareness. This means learning to
listen to ones inner self and ones higher self. Its really easy to
do and really important.

135
RM: How does one learn to do this most effectively?
DJB: Any form of spiritual healingwhether it is Therapeutic Tou ch or Reiki or oth er approaches involves getting in
touch with your intuitive awareness. So studying and practicing under a mentor, or going through a training program, can
b e e n o r m o us l y h e lp f ul. P a r t o f th is p r oc e s s is e s p e c ia lly
important to a practitioner, because all of us have some murkiness in our pasts. But, in order to help others, its important to
know how to clear out this murkiness, so it doesnt get in the
w ay. For me, personally, I have to say that, for any kind of
interaction with another person, healing is a part of it.
RM: Thanks, Dan, for a really informative and enlightening
interview. My mom is feeling much better now.
n
DJB: Thank you, I enjoyed talking with you today.

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