The Peace Ambassador Training

Living Systems with Riane Eisler

June 25, 2014
[0:00:00]
Philip:

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Peace Ambassador Training

program. This is Philip Hellmich the Director of Peace for Shift Network
and were very delighted. Were going to go deeper into the Fourth Pillar
of Mastering Systems Change. Were expecting Riane Eisler to be on the
phone with us momentarily and to get started here, we have a special
guest who is calling in all the way from the Melbourne area of Australia
to lead our meditation and Trevor we are just really delighted that youre
here to do this and also I just want to thank you for your beautiful
contributions that youve been writing for the community sharing. So
Trevor, thank you.

Trevor:

Its been a pleasure, thank you Philip and James.

Philip:

All right. Trevor, if youd like to go ahead and go ahead and lead us in a
meditation, were all yours.

Trevor:

Thank you. Well Im going to now if you feel comfortable doing so to

allow your eyes to close.

James:

Have to bring up the volume there.

Philip:

Softly. You may care to make the decision to put the concerns of the day
to one side just for a moment. If you choose to pick them up again later
theyll be there or maybe not. Allow your breathing to settle. Consider for
a moment there the use of technology to connect something not
available only a generation ago and an extension of mind. In the world of
appearances we are thousands of miles apart yet at the click of a button
here we are; comfortable in community, immunity, and common unity.
With so much more in common than the ways we appear to differ
bathing our world in the compassionate expression of in connectedness
and sameness.
Isnt it wonderful to be in a space by where we can simply be ourselves,
knowing that well never be judged an experience denied many on this
planet? Where the only silly question is the one not asked. It is quite
often the question forming in our mind of being formed in the minds of
others sitting around our little camp fire. If we dont ask our question or
contribute to the conversation around the campfire, and others are
June 25, 2014 | p. 1

equally shy that which needs to be heard is not heard. No one can say
what you are here to say.
Last week we were reminded by David Korten that peace is both an
internal and external process. We dont see the world as it is. We see the
world as we are. So with the myriad of densities we can bring to each
daily encounter your duty is to bring forward what is being allowed to
come out to play? We are given so many chances to choose our priority
each day. Do you want to be right or do you prefer to be at peace and
perhaps create a more peaceful and healing encounter? Its always our
choice. No one can make that choice for us.
A powerful question we could powerfully ask ourselves in any
circumstance is who, do I know myself to be. That is, which me am I
bringing to the table? What is my intention here? Where am I placing my
intention? But the overworking question is who do I know myself to be?
Because from that beingness we all speak and act to create a bridge over
troubled waters or to widen the imagined chasm that seems to loom
between us and the other. The truth is our beloved mirror. All of our
experiences are a reflection of our current expression of Self, theyre our
answer to this universal question.
[0:05:05]
Each moment we can numb ourselves to be the true Self so what we do
becomes less important and who we are in the doing of it. Yet be patient
and give it to me now we cry. But instead of patience, we are given
wonderful opportunities to practice faith. Im so lonely I need love we cry
but instead of receiving love, we are reminded that love is our identity.
We are given an opportunity to share that gift. So let us breathe that
awareness in, deepen that awareness with each breath. Let that
awareness awaken us to our true identity free of the labels of the
external world may attempt to play. May our life be a reflection of that.
So when youre ready Id like you to open your eyes and welcome the
discussion to follow it.
Philip:

Beautiful Trevor. Thank you again so much for your presence and this
beautiful, beautiful meditation.

Trevor:

Thank you for opportunity to serve the community, thank you Philip.

Philip:

Oh well my friends wow, okay. I just love this global community and the
fellowship that we have here and just really really grateful for everyone
whos participating from several countries around the world. Just a few
announcements, again the Summer of Peace is just phenomenal so if you
June 25, 2014 | p. 2

havent signed up, please do so, SummerOfPeace.net. If you want to

become a Shift Network affiliate and help spread the word about the
Summer of Peace and also possibly earn some income, just go to the
website and sign up, Shift Network website and sign up to be an affiliate
and we will be able to help you there. We have a few people who are
volunteering to lead meditations in the next couple of classes so Im
really grateful for that. First anyone else please send an email to
Philip@TheShiftNetwork.com.
And if youre having technical difficulties during this call, please let us
know and James just going to pass it over to you to connect last class
with this one and just let you know that were still waiting for Riane to
join the class. She had confirmed by email so well keep you posted on
that.
James:

Okay. Lets call in Riane wherever you are Riane we need you and your
wonderful wisdom this evening. Wow, what fabulous myth busting about
money and power by David Korten and that early book he wrote When
Corporations Ruled the World was certainly influential on me and that its
wisdom is so revealed, so true today that the acquisition of wealth
doesnt conglomeration of wealth the concentration of wealth is not
feeding the system in the way it needs to. Its not being distributed. Its
not creating the kind of dynamic growth at the local levels. Theyre so
needed and certainly also that consciousness in terms of what the planet
needs is not always there. Although you do find remarkable
consciousness in certain new corporate enterprises, ecological
sustainable work practice, community building.
So its not all a bad news. Theres lot of new corporate initiatives that are
really very inspired by this whole consciousness. Then David talks about
thinking from the biosphere to the bioregions to sustainable
communities. Because enfolded patterns and organizational processes
always moving in consonance with each other.

[0:10:01]
And the sustainability of economy and ecology, the marriage of the two
comes from the word eco, the home. You know, the study of how the
ecological, the home system works and how it can feed our economies.
Then very much seeing that we find in Riane also systems organization
around values. That systems organize themselves around values. So
hence we really only declare our values and start to live our values
whereas the systems that reflect them. And then what I loved also about
this presentation was that sense of dialogue with the other and the
presence of love. I mean you talk about love in the Occupy Movement
and how we can utilize post slowing down the Slow Food Movement, the
June 25, 2014 | p. 3

Slow Money Movement which is about you know, investing in your local
community. Maybe you dont get the same kinds of returns as you do
with spinning the wheel on Wall Street but you feed communities. You
help them to sustain themselves. The speed comes from the technologies
that allow us to communicate, to share ideas, to be dynamically creative
in a planetary way.
So I think what Id like to do also is just as weve done in this systems
pillar, we share some of those 12 simple rules we developed in
Washington. So let me just go through a few more of those. Weve hit on
several of them already but as I mentioned there theyre in the chapter in
Cultivating Peace entitled peace work and whole systems shift.
The very simple rule is systems move between various degrees of stability
and instability order and disorder. Thats how systems work. When the
disorder becomes too great, things fall apart. When the order is too rigid,
things cant grow or develop. So instability is an aspect of chaos, a certain
degree of instability known as the edge of chaos can be where creativity
and innovation occur. Therefore the rule is do not fear chaos but use it to
bring about greater coherence. Fascinating themes in systems work in
terms of looking at right there at the edge of chaos where theres a
certain degree of unpredictability and instability. Things can shift, can
move dynamically. Systems can change radically. Small you know, small
interventions can have huge repercussions. So we want to be
comfortable with that level of instability. Rigidity is an element of
systemic dysfunction. We know politically when systems get too rigid it
becomes too fascistic, too focused around conformity and order that you
get massive breakdown and violations.
So chaos is a natural part of life unpredictability. Its a key theme in
systems theory and yet right there at the edge of chaos we can build and
engage in new forms of creativity and life enhancing systemic
development.
Good one that, I really like it and number nine is all living systems exist in
a single field where subtle influences can have large repercussions.
Quantum physics suggests that even the so called objective observer is
an engaged participant and the rule therefore wherever you find yourself
in any systems remember that you are a player and I love the in Trevors
meditation this evening you know, that question who am I to come out to
play. How do you allow yourself to enter into the field of play? And
knowing that youre a player doesnt require you to get ego involved,
doesnt require you to puff yourself up. It actually requires you to be
yourselves you know, again beautifully expressed in the meditation
June 25, 2014 | p. 4

tonight. In being yourself, youre an invaluable node of influence in any

system of interconnection.
Its really that sense of coming to a new awareness of who you are, your
own essential quality, what you have to contribute and dynamically
interacting with other nodes, other players in the system to create that
fluidity, that movement thats so essential. And Ill finish here with
number ten, the parts of a living system share a common purpose. That is
what defines a system, parts operating with a common purpose. Purpose
drives the energy of a system to achieve its goals therefore constantly
reexamine our goals and purposes for alignment with current needs and
reality. So its that sense of we think of you know, nonlinear and living
systems as dynamic as in movement and that you know, we have to
adapt to that movement with the sense of purposefulness that is being
revealed by the possibilities of the moment not by the rules of the past,
not by conditioned behavior not by assigned roles and conformity. But
that sense of purpose it aligns with what is emerging, what is emerging
for the best that will give us deepest alignment with our own true values
and weariness. Very exciting stuff I think systems thinking when we apply
it to peacebuilding and to the total creation of evolutionary process.
So with that Philip lets hear it for any community voices to share with us
too.
Philip:

Okay, James sure thing. And just to let you know that Riane is with us so
you can introduce her after the community sharing. So if anyone is on the
phone who would like to share, just please press 1 and then if youre on
the webcast, please go ahead and type in your sharing and I can read it
from there. We have a thank you from Judith Trevor for what a
wonderful meditation Trevor thank you. So thats coming from Judith in
Connecticut. Lets see. We do have oh [name withheld] here is James,
excellent. [Name withheld], please go ahead.

Participant:

Hi. Hi Philip, Hi James.

James:

Hi.

Participant:

Nice to be here of yeah if possible I would like to thank Philip and James
and the whole Shift Network family for allowing me to retake this course.
It is my pleasure to be here again and then also along with nine of my
friends to participate in these calls and Im giving the scholarship for
them and for me too as well. So I would like to share something that this
course impacted me and how it is inspiring me to live my life. Some of
you have heard about my stories before and then well I grew up in a
June 25, 2014 | p. 5

refugee camp in Nepal since I was three years old. I spent 20 years of my
life in a refugee camp and during my childhood and also my whole
teenage years, you know, I spent my life as a victim with the cycle of it
and then I kind of went over this dual attitude of this good and bad victim
and victimizer and this victim you know, as a victim we supply the
victimizer with violence and we are this victimizer and you know, bring
peace. So thats how I grew up.
[0:20:30]
And its really kind of life transforming to be in this Ambassador Training
that its really teaching me the new definition of the relationship
between victim and victimizer that its not about good and bad. Its not
about whos right and whos wrong. Its about finding common ground
and its about you know, of course cultivating peace to myself and not
letting that suppressed emotion that the wounding to you know, kind of
wound others and which is what I see I think happening in this world. So
the Peace Ambassador Training is really, really transforming my life to
live a meaningful life even though I had that one of the worst rides in my
life. So I would like to thank James, Philip and the whole Shift Network for
this wonderful course.
I would also like to say that since this, you know sense of victimhood,
victimhood is like very, very you know, its everywhere that you know,
the number of refugees are like increasing day by day. So and the world,
the personal culture to react with this feeling of victimhood and react
with this victimizer is through violence and hatred and rage. So I think,
this Peace Ambassador Training should reach out to the refuges or
people like refuges who feel very vulnerable and very helpless and
hopeless so that they can be empowered and they can find the creative
way to react to the victimizers and the perpetrators. So thank you so
much, thank you so much.
James:

Thank you [name withheld] and people should be aware of your websites
from Revenge Direct and from Revenge to Realization as wonderful blogs.
The last one you wrote an International Refugee Day about the crisis, the
high number of Bhutanese refugees who are committing suicide, one of
the highest suicide rates in the world. And that you are in dialogue with
the government of Bhutan and the Head of the Office of Gross National
Happiness about the unhappiness and the true injustice against the
refugees of which you are a part. So I think well give people the link in
the follow up to the class so that they can go to your website. But thanks
again for what youre doing.

Participant:

Thank you so much.

June 25, 2014 | p. 6

Philip:

Yeah. I want to echo that [name withheld]. Thank you, thank you for who
you are and what youre doing. Its a real delight to have you in here.

James:

So we should probably --

Philip:

James? Yeah we have another hand up. We could take one more?

James:

One more and then well go to Riane.

Philip:

Okay. [Name withheld], please go ahead.

Participant:

Hi everybody. I just wanted to thank [name withheld] for his story and it
brought up for me the powerful lesson we had on the different types of
listening that James gave to us. I think that for me thats been one of the
most transformative parts of the course just in where Im at. I think that
the broader implications to I see a great need for more coaching on the
different types of listening so people can really tap in and become aware
at that level and in return be heard so that creative flow and that creative
expression can that theres a confidence that alongside the coaching
and different types of listening that those creative expressions of people
who are refugees and other circumstances that that is really experienced
to the fullest spectrum that it can be. So thanks [name withheld] for the
sharing and I look forward to seeing your website.

[0:25:32]
James:

Thank you [name withheld] and as you know I am passionate about

listening and the level of the listening and how proactive listening is.
People think of it as passive but receptivity is not passivity. Its the
defining difference. As receptivity opens up the field and then the deeper
we open up the field, the more we can really engage in transformation
together. Thank you. Well its a great pleasure to have back with us this
evening Riane Eisler whos been a hero of mine for a long time and she is
to many of us who is known for her bestseller The Chalice and the Blade
which is formative for women and men across the world. Its translated
into over 25 foreign editions as well as books like Sacred Treasure, The
Power of Partnership and Tomorrows Children. Her newest book, The
Real Wealth of Nations hailed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a template
for the better world weve been so urgently seeking. By our beloved
Gloria Steinhem as revolutionary proposes a new approach to economics
that gives visibility and value to the most essential human work, the work
of caring for people and for our natural environment. Then we would add
the work of peacemaking and peacebuilding is certainly a part of that.
She has keynoted conferences worldwide and with venues including the
United Nations as the German parliament and Vaslav Havel has invited
June 25, 2014 | p. 7

her to speak when he was President of the Czech Republic. What an

honor. Id love to have been the fly on that wall, Riane Eisler and Vaslav
Havel. Dr. Eisler is the leader for peace, environmental sustainability,
economic equity and human rights pioneering the extension of human
rights protection to womens rights and childrens rights. As a Nobel
Laureate Betty Williams another great soul on the planet, she cofounded
the Spiritual Alliance to stop intimate violence. Shes the president of the
Center Of Partnership Studies, has received so many honors including an
honorary PhD. Alice Walker, Alice Paul sorry, ERA Education Award and
the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation Distinguished Peace Leadership
Award. Its the award winning book that shes in that wonderful book The
Great Peacemakers as one of the 20 leaders for world peace including
Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King.
The thing that you discover with Riane is that shes the embodiment of
the message. Sometimes messengers can get ahead of their message but
youll see this evening she is her message in a very profound and
beautiful way so welcome back Riane.
Riane:

Well its a pleasure to be with you and I am so glad that I happen to look
at my email and I saw that there had been a change of time. But you
know it gave me the opportunity, which I love of listening not only to you
James but also to some of the participants. So thank you and thank you
for that lovely introduction.

James:

Welcome. So just

Riane:

Hello?

James:

So the floor is yours now.

Riane:

Oh well, thank you. Well I am so happy to be with all of you and to have
had as I said the opportunity to hear some of the comments. I guess a
good way to start and I would like to have a chance to also talk with you
not just to you is to tell you a little about myself from a personal
standpoint. Because Im very passionately committed to this work. Robin
spoke about being a refugee, well when I was a very small child, I too was
a refuge as my parents and I had to flee for our lives from there to
Europe. And from one day to the next, really my whole world went
asunder. You know my parents and I became hunted with license to kill.

[0:30:39]
So that experience also we were fortunate enough to be able to find
refuge in Cuba but of course the Nazis confiscated, thats an official word
for armed robbery everything that my parents had. So we had no money.
June 25, 2014 | p. 8

I grew up in the industrial slums of Havana and there I experienced well

the trauma of poverty. But you know, it was really interesting in this
sense because one thing that these experiences ignited in me is this
passion, the passion that we share James, Philip, all of you here or you
wouldnt be on this program to do what we can so that this chronic
injustice, violence, persecution of people that so many people think well
thats just the way things are that we can build a world where we can say
yes thats the way things once were. That experience is what eventually
after many other experiences inspired my work beginning really with my
research. I want to tell you just a little about that because what Ive done
in my research and I think thats why my work has attracted attention as
James said and has inspired and empowered people is well it goes you
know, theres this expression that we hear so much about today thinking
outside the box. Well what Im going to invite you actually is to do just
that. To join me in thinking outside the box of conventional social
categories like right/left, religious/secular, eastern/western, northern,
southern, religious or secular, etc. Why? Because if you really look at
societies and all these categories, societies in every one of them have
been oppressive, violent, have I mean completely thrashed our
environment, etc. So the question, if were going to answer this question
of how can we really build what my work is about cultures of peace. So
that peace is not just an interval between wars which is the way that
weve learned to think of it unfortunately.
We really have to go deeper and thats what I did in my research. I looked
at what would be the core components of a society that supports rather
than inhibits our enormous human capacities for caring, for empathy, for
sensitivity rather than because unfortunately we also have those
capacities for insensitivity, cruelty, destructiveness, violence. And what I
came up with as Ive said transcends these categories, I identified and
now a lot of other people are identifying two core configurations of what
there were no names for it. I called one the domination system and the
other one the partnership system.
By the way, this fall, hosted by the University of Minnesota, we are
launching the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies which will
be the first academic journal. I really want you to tell your friends in
academia about it but also practitioners because we want this journal to
be not only for understanding theory, and we have to understand theory
because theory is what guides behavior. Im going to be very nonlinear
with you because I really want to get leave sometime so that we can
actually talk with one another. You know the old theories that we have
are very interesting. They give very you know, what about society, you
know, sociology, anthropology, political science etc. to really look at
June 25, 2014 | p. 9

them. Theyre very curious. In fact, I think generations from now people
will look at them and say wow, they left out this huge swathe of human
relation. Not only a huge swath but they didnt pay attention as this
research is not a disciplinary cross cultural and historical research out of
which the theory of cultural transformation and the partnership and
domination system has been to the cultural construction of the
foundational human relations. What do I mean by that? I mean the
relations without which none of us would be here. The relations that are
between adults and children and between the two halves humanity:
women and men. Why is this so important? Well think about it for a
minute. Where do children we know that the brain develops in
interaction with its environment right?
Well before our brains are fully formed, these two relationships what
they experience or observe in these relations are really what children
internalize and in the development of their brains. But they begin to think
of that as normal, inevitable, moral and we have for much of recorded
history internalized the idea that relations of top down rankings of
violence being used as a means of imposing ones will on others be it
violence against children, violence against women. That thats okay. That
thats normal. Thats even moral right?
So as long as we dont pay attention to those relations, were not going to
have the foundations for cultures of peace. and domination systems if
you think for example today as so called religious fundamentalists why do
you think that for them as it was for Hitler by the way, it wasnt this
Khomeini or the Taliban but for Hitler and for Stalin to as a matter of fact,
top priority is getting women back into their traditional place in a
traditional family and those are code words arent they? For an
authoritarian, rigidly male dominated highly punitive family where
children learn early on as I said even on the level of brain circuits that its
normal to have, to equate difference, right beginning with the
fundamental difference between male and female with either
dominating or being dominated with either being served or serving yes
with either superiority or inferiority. That then can get generalized as it
does to all differences be they differences of race, ethnicity, sexual
orientation. Weve seen those correlation because were still looking
through these old lenses of right versus left, religious versus secular,
eastern versus western, northern versus southern. This has been
invisible. So our job really if we are to be leaders in building cultures of
peace whereas Ive said peace is not just an interval between wars where
violence beginning with violence in those formative relations in families is
no longer considered normal, moral. Weve got to pay attention to this.
June 25, 2014 | p. 10

This is I think what the main contribution of my work is. Im just going to
give you a little thumbnail about my books so that and also about some
of the projects Im working on and then I want to spend some time
talking with you. But the first book as James said coming out of this
research was The Chalice and the Blade. The subtitle is Our History, Our
Future and its a rereading of history which shows something about which
there is more and more evidence which is that the original direction in
the mainstream of our cultural evolution starting with foraging societies
and then going to the first agrarian societies culminating in society such
as Minoan Crete but more in a partnership direction of a more egalitarian
social structure of yes gender partnership, of the elevation of so-called
feminine values whether in women or in men such as caring, empathy,
nonviolence to social governance.
[0:40:35]
Violence isnt so needed because there is some violence of course but we
humans lose it sometimes but its not built into the social structure, into
the social fabric and that that the original direction of our cultural
evolution. Its very exciting because for example, Ill give you one
example of new findings. I mean the Chalice and the Blade, Sacred
Pleasure really gives you that history, that hidden history and thats why
you know, so many people have written that these books have
completely changed their lives. But because we live by stories and if the
story is well there never was then the invitation is there never can be
right, something better than domination system.
But one of the most fascinating recent findings verifying this aside from
lots of archeological and mystical evidence that youll find in these books,
a scholar looked at those handprints, you know, that you see in the
European caves and of course were always told that it was men who did
all the arts. You know, women are always invisible right in these
accounts. Well he looked at the hand structure and from what we know
today, there are women and men have a different finger structure and lo
and behold the majority of them were female hands. So women were
there number one, which they had to be right or we wouldnt be there.
We wouldnt be here. But number two, women were actually some of
the artists in these caves. So yes its not that women are only passive and
men are only active and men are creative and women arent. Of course
women create life right out of our bodies but we really need to have a
whole retelling of our history.
Sacred Pleasure by the way looks at sexuality and spirituality through
these two lenses, looking at for example the Sacred Marriage throughout
prehistory and even history like in the hymns of Inana and so on. But very
quickly to go to my latest book that I wrote solo because I also have coJune 25, 2014 | p. 11

written books. In fact I just cowrote one. Well why dont you all go to my
website which is RianeEisler.com and its RianeEisler.com. Youll see my
latest book is The Real Wealth of Nations as James said. There its part of
the movement in my work from analysis and from explaining and from
understanding which we need to. We need different stories. We live by
stories to action. That book deals with how can we build what I call a
caring economy? I wont tell you that much about it because you can find
out about it from the book. You can go to a website CaringEconomy.org.
We have wonderful online webinars. In fact we have one starting on July
1st for young people. We did a pilot on that last year with high school
students and at the American high school which is a very multicultural
school, a lot of immigrant children, etc. They loved it not only that they
loved it but they formed a Caring Economy Club in their high school. We
have to really show children that there is a partnership alternative
because so much of what theyre still taught not only in the mass media
but in their schools you know, like history its all about who won and who
lost in battles right for control, for domination right? Well theres much
more to history than that, isnt there? So we have that course, that
webinar starting in July 1st and there is still some spaces and then on July
9th we have a free starter course. We do have some scholarships by the
way for the young peoples webinar at CaringEconomy.org. On July 9 th as
you will see we have a free start course that I invite all of you to attend.
[0:45:11]
But basically and this takes me back to Bhutan you know, Robin spoke
about that, these Gross National Happiness Index that is a country where
there is much unhappiness which is kind of ironic, isnt it? But we are
working on a very different set of economic indicators that are very, very
needed, what we call Social Wealth Economic Indicators that really show
of the enormous value. Well they show what the real wealth of nations
shows that the real wealth of a nation isnt just financial. I mean we saw
that with the melting into thin air of all of those you know, credit swaps,
etc. We see it every day with the stock market piece going up and down.
The real wealth of a nation consist of the contributions of people and of
nature so we need what we have not had, economic measurements,
economic practices, economic policies that give visibility and value to the
most important human work, the work of caring for people starting in
early childhood and the work of caring for our natural environment, our
Mother Earth. In my book on education, Tomorrows Children Ive
proposed that caring for life, for self, for others, for nature should be part
of the curriculum from preschool to graduate school. So yes, we are to
build cultures of peace. If we are to really change what is going on in our
world, we have to pay attention to economics and to the fact that
June 25, 2014 | p. 12

worldwide the mass of the poor and the poorest of the poor in our world
are women and children. The major reason for that poverty is that the
work of care that women still disproportionately perform is so low paid in
the market. In our nation in contrast to say Nordic nations like Sweden,
Finland, and Norway and most west European nations, in our nation we
dont have any support like caregiver tax credits, like paid parental leave,
etc. for people who do the work of care at home. So according to the US
census bureau, in the United States women over the age of 65 are twice
as likely to be poor as men of the same age. It isnt not only job
discrimination, it is because most of these women are or were either full
or part time caregivers and poverty is there reward and we cant have
this continue. We need to give value to care for children if were to have
that high quality human capital that economists tell us is essential for the
postindustrial knowledge age if we have to have elder care. I mean we
have to really stand reality right side up right? And give value to what we
know is most valuable.
That really is part of building the foundation for a more peaceful and a
more caring world. So Im going to stop now. Ive shared a lot with you
but Id like to talk with James and with you. So I very deliberately left us
some minutes to do that.
James:

Wonderful. Thank you Riane really powerful, powerful work youre doing
in the world. You know, Ive been thinking about Marianne Williamson
and her run for Congress and they just had the primary there in California
a couple of weeks and she didnt quite make it. But she really started to
define how you can run without getting embroiled in big money, how you
can define really the value system that is not really getting through in a
polarized kind of political environment. Shes also founded an
organization called Sister Giant to bring more women into the political
sphere. What do you feel is the role of women and the larger
feminization of politics or partnership model as you refer to it?

Riana:

Well I think first of all we cant really talk of representative democracy

with a straight face as long as in our nation women are such a small
percentage of the representatives. You know, were half the population
actually a little bit more than that but then women dont necessarily
really support caring policies. Look at Sarah Palin for example. So we have
to be careful about which women because there are some women Sarah
Palin, Maggie Thatcher did before her that have to they make it to the
top of domination hierarchies by showing or trying to show every inch of
the way that theyre not soft or feminine right? Theyre hunters, theyre
you know, I mean like Palin with her guns and all of that.

[0:50:54]
June 25, 2014 | p. 13

So we definitely have to have more women elected but not only elected,
we need more women in corporate decision making because a business is
a very, very major force. You know I meet people from the business
community and I dont think in this sort of us against them mentality
because there are within these corporations people who really want to
be partners in building a more caring economy and more caring world but
they dont have the tools. This is one of the reasons that these social
wealth economic indicators that were working on are so vital. Because if
we dont measure the importance for example, there are studies showing
that the work of care performed in homes surveys actually in Austria and
surveys for example showed that if that work which is still primarily
performed by women although more and more men are doing it. The
more value its given, the more men will do it.
But that if it were counted it would be 50% of the reported on national
GDP. I mean thats huge. But as long as its invisible we will not see
investment in our caring policies, in paid parental lead. I mean we cant
seriously talk about balancing employment and family if we dont have
those policies. So I think that yes theres a lot to do but you know, this
evolution in consciousness from my perspective is to a very large extent
the consciousness that there is a viable partnership alternative, but to
build it we have to pay attention to these foundational relations, how
theyre constructed parent child; gender relations so that we have the
foundation. My work is really very ambitious as you can see. I mean but
you know, as you know James and as so many on this call know, none of
us can do everything but together we can really be conscious agents in
cultural transformation.
James:

Uh-hum.

Riane:

From domination to partnership

James:

Indeed. Beautifully said. You know, I recently posted on my Facebook

page a piece by Melinda Gates, The Gates Foundation, its very
interesting piece. What she was articulating was the research and the
argument that it goes you know, its a response to people to say look
weve got too many people on the planet and dont spend all this energy
on child welfare and health and you know, we need less people and
therefore you know, all these efforts to just sustaining more growth.
What she does of course is articulate the research and the perspective
that when you educate, when you care, when you give health, when you
give economic support you change the whole framework of population
density and so forth. I wonder if youd like to talk about that.
June 25, 2014 | p. 14

Riane:

Well Ive written a great deal about that. Ive written a great deal. As you
mentioned I wrote the first article as a matter of fact for the Human
Rights Quarterly on what has since become known as Womens Rights as
Human Rights. Of course population density is a function of domination
systems. If women are only viewed as male controlled technologies of
reproduction for mens sons youll get what youve got. And its not
coincidental that the most densely populated and the poorest regions in
our world unfortunately are still very male dominated.

[0:55:09]
As I said a core component of the domination system that coincidentally
theyre also most I mean you see the correlation, the authoritarian
regime in the state and in the family, the male dominance, the violence
right. So if were serious about having a more sustainable planet and we
do have to do something about population but the whole notion you
know, in the domination system what controlled population was famine
and war right, and disease, etc. Well the only way to really change that is
to raise the status of women not only access to family planning for
women and men but life options for women that both support the work
of care and attracts more men to do it in families but also enables
women to develop their capacities of participating in the market
economy.
So its doable. All thats required is the consciousness that thats the
solution and the will to implement it. That means unfortunately that we
really have to deal with a lot of resistance. I mean population, Im in the
film called Mother Caring for Seven Billion and its one of the few films
that counters this whole notion that somehow population planning is a
western imperialist genocidal plot against third, you know, I mean it used
to be called third word against the south. Well that was propagated by
the Vatican in conjunction with some very regressive Moslem nations.
You know what a lot of so called liberals bought it and so the struggle is
really within even the liberal community. It isnt you know, there are
people who consider themselves conservatives will really do support
womens dignity and rights. Thats why its so important that we start
thinking in different ways that transcend the old categories.
James:

Indeed, indeed. You know what I love about your work is that it takes us
to the core issues and it takes us to the home and the heart to you know,
I say sometimes youve just written a book which will be coming out in
December called The Conscious Activist where activism meets mysticism.
But part of it is about domestic activism and you know, theres so much --

Riane:

Great. Im so glad.
June 25, 2014 | p. 15

James:

So much evolving there. You know, I described in one part of the book
the very painful separation in divorce process as my wife came to with
three teenage sons. Yet how transformative our process was for
everyone involved because what we decided was we said to the boys you
know, this will be your house and now a whole role constellation will
change and your parents are going to rotate around you. So your mother
will be here after a week and then your father will be here after a week
and you wont move around. Well what it did was it dynamically changed
everyones kind of roleplaying if you like the children participated in
really facilitating the process as nucleus of the new organism. I just think
there are so many things happening on the domestic front that are
changing the world and doing that cultural transformation that he talked
about. Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about what you see on the
domestic front.

Riane:

Well I think that you were talking earlier about the whole systems
approach and it is a little bizarre of just sort of separate whats happening
in the so-called public sphere of politics, economics from what happens
in the so called private sphere of family and other intimate relations. My
books I mean starting with The Chalice and the Blade, Sacred Pleasure
you know, going on to oh the Power of Partnership which is really kind of
a how to book they all show this. But we havent been educated to think
that way. Why? Because these so called domestic sphere was supposed
to be the only sphere by women and children where you know, were I
mean they werent supposed to be on the public sphere. That was
supposed to be just the mens world.

[1:00:20]
As I said that ranking of the male half of humanity over the female half is
a cornerstone of domination systems and thats why in my work I just did
an article for Cosmos for example where I talk about four cornerstones
for cultural transformation. One of them is childhood relations. The other
is gender relations. The third is economic relations and the fourth yes, its
stories. Its spirituality. Its morality. Theyre all interconnected and
politics really is based on those and is engaged in every one of those. You
cant separate politics which is about power relations. I do make a
distinction in my work which I really want to share. You know, we hear so
much about hierarchy is bad and indeed in The Chalice and the Blade, I
kind of fell into that a little bit by using the term hierarchical to describe
the domination system. But in Sacred Pleasure already I started to see
that of course we need hierarchies. You know, we need parents, we need
teachers, we need managers, we need leaders. So I make a distinction
between what I call hierarchies of domination. We all know those, right?
You know, you better obey or else theres going to be a lot of pain. You
know, you lose your job, you get hit, you get as a child or you get even
June 25, 2014 | p. 16

killed you know, etc. Theres also a hierarchy of actualization and yes
again I have to coin new words where the power is more the power of
the chalice. Right? The power of, you know, the title of The Chalice and
the Blade, the blade symbolizes the power to control, to dominate, to
take life right? But theres another kind of power is the power of the
chalice. Its the power to give life, to nurture life and to illuminate life and
to empower oneself and others.
So we really have to do a lot of rethinking dont we of conventional ways
that weve been taught to look at the world.
James:

Indeed and I want to ask Philip to jump in now maybe he has a question
and then well open it to our class. But Ill just end on that sense of you
know, the transformation of our attitudes towards children is
development of our perceptional and emotional intelligence. Change
authoritarianism in the home is I think really going to affect societal
transition in a big way.

Riane:

And its foundational. If we dont address that its like building a house on
sand.

James:

Uh-hum. Philip?

Philip:

All right. James and Riane thank you so much. If anyones on the phone
and would like to ask a question please hit 1 and then if youre on the
webcast, please go ahead and type in your question. I can reach them
there. Riane, as youre talking, Im also just thinking about wondering
how youre handling the fact that theres such diversity in the world. Im
thinking about places where I lived in Sierra Leone subsistence farmers
and so forth and then in the US you know, just the vast differences. So
when youre looking at these trends that youre seeing, how do you take
into account your systems thinking when theres such diversity and
globalization taking place at the same time?

Riane:

Well if you really use the lenses of the partnership and domination
system, youll see actually that underlying all of these differences is what
I call the partnership domination continuum. That certainly there are
many different customs but and many different laws and many different
traditions but if you look at them they either fall into the domination or
the partnership side. So this is a way of cutting through a lot of this. Its a
way of you know, one of the things that I think that we have to contend
with today is that progressives has more or less thrown out the idea of
morality of standards.

[1:05:08]
June 25, 2014 | p. 17

You know, everything is supposed to be relative and youre not supposed

to ever judge anything. Well Im sorry but you know, there are some
things, I mean if you touch me, if you use a knife and cut me I hurt and
thats not relative. That just is. If Im touched in a caring way that makes
me feel good rather than causing me pain or even death. So we have to
have standards and this calls for relativism really is very regressive. Even
though again its embraced by people who so often think of themselves
as liberals.
Its a very poor standard actually. It is a standard of course but you know,
the way it came about of course is that so much of the old morality was
really designed to maintain rankings of domination right? So there was a
double standard not just the sexual double standard of course but the
double standard for those in control right and those who are not in
control. So what Im trying to say is yes its a very diverse world but if we
then start looking at the diversity from the perspective of these two
configurations we can then decide what are the traditions that we want
to strengthen and build upon and what are the traditions that we want to
show what they really are and leave behind.
James:

Right.

Philip:

Once you do that, then it isnt quite such a jumble.

James:

Beautiful. Thank you, Riane. I think we have some questions here. [name
withheld] you have your hand up. [Name withheld]?

Participant:

Yeah. Thank you and Riane its so great to hear from you. Ive tuned into
one or two of the Caring Economy call and I also look forward to hearing
you speak on July 7th for Lauren Olivers beloved community
teleconference. She does organization circles work and I think a lot of our
circles work hearing you speak about building cultures of peace. I studied
with Warren for almost two years and I just see it as a sort of total
expression of more partnership cultural systems where people have to be
in face to face circle not necessarily with an agenda except to share life
together.
And I wanted to mention one other thought while you were speaking. I
see your work as well somewhere along the line of like environmental
science curriculum. I went to the University of Montana. I came across
this concept that I think is well known but maybe its not and its called
the triple bottom line. We were talking about policy, well if your social
wealth economic indicators Im so looking forward to reading about them
because I know the triple bottom line is a model for businesses and I just,
June 25, 2014 | p. 18

I dont know how to clear the status quo of standards are for the social
component of that whole theory which is now actually being
implemented by major corporations. I think it would be so beneficial to
have your work as a very like cornerstone for that movement.
Riane:

Absolutely and I thank you so much for bringing up all of these things
[name withheld]. I want to start with the last thing you said which is the
triple bottom line of course is what we need to aim for. As I note in The
Real Wealth of Nations corporate, corporations can actually we can have
laws that require corporations to do that. We just dont happen to have
them at this point. Okay?

Participant:

Um hum

Riane:

But we can. But in order for us to get those kinds of policies and also to
encourage more corporations on their own to really move in that
direction, we have to show them that there is not only a human and
social justice benefit but an economic benefit. This is one of the
distinguishing things about the Social Wealth Economic Indicators.

[1:10:20]
They show the return on investment from investing in early childhood
education, from investing in supporting care work. Companies for
example that have paid parental leave, that have flex time you know, that
help with childcare they have a higher return to investors. Why? Well
there are many reasons but the basic one is that when people feel that
they and their families are cared for, theyre going to work very hard to
make that company successful, right? Because they want that job. So
what were doing is it is combining a social justice argument with an
economic benefits argument. We will be launching the social wealth
economic indicators this fall with a website, with an online launch, with a
report. If any of you were looking for some corporate sponsors,
progressive corporations that are interested, were looking also for we
have the coalition of organization as part of our caring economy
campaign. We want partners to be you know, from our coalition but
also organizations that havent yet joined the coalition to really be part of
this because the only way that this is going to move forward is if we have
both grassroots and business support.
Politically we can only move forward now in the United States on a
county or state level and we are moving forward. We have a handbook
that was commissioned by a supervisor who actually took the caring
economy webinar on how do you apply a social wealth economic
indicator to both guide and evaluate county policy. So yes it all ties
June 25, 2014 | p. 19

together. Again take a look at CaringEconomy.org. Also take a look at my

own website RianeEisler.com.
Participant:

Thank you.

Philip:

Thank you. Thank you [name withheld].

Participant:

Yes.

Philip:

Riane we have a comment here from [name withheld] in Cameron. She

says when I first learned accounting I was very struck by the fact that
machines showed up as both assets and liabilities. The money borrowed
to buy them but people always showed up on financial statements as
liabilities, wages, benefits, etc. I thought no wonder there is no more
loyalty to people in the workplace because they are not valued. Would
you like to comment about this Riane?

Riane:

Oh my god I love this comment and thats the whole point. In the Real
Wealth of Nations Ive proposed that investment in caring for people
should be amortized as an investment not just as an expense. Because I
mean we can do that for the long, for the life of a machine. We should do
it for the working life of an individual right? So bless you and [name
withheld] youre so and Cameron youre so on the same wavelength. I
really invite you to be part of the Caring Economy campaign. So come and
join us.

James:

Wonderful. Thanks Riane and [name withheld] thank you so much for
that comment. We have a comment here from a friend [name withheld]
who led the meditation. You may want to comment on it. He says a
contribution of people and nature to be part of the curriculum what a
wonderful concept. But together we can make it more than a concept.
We are worthy of nothing less. Would you like to comment?

Riane:

Well yes and its only going to happen if we make it happen and by we, I
mean you and your colleagues and your friends and your circle. I mean
thats what the Caring Economy campaign in a way is about. Its to really
change the whole way that we think. Its a different worldview. Its a
different conceptual framework thats what the partnership and
domination continuum is about.

[1:15:06]
As long as were stuck in the old categories like economically socialism
and capitalism I mean first of all socialist, you know, the two large scale
applications of socialism were a disaster, environmentally not just speak
of inhuman terms. Im talking about Soviet Union and China but even the
June 25, 2014 | p. 20

theory is crazy. I mean for both a mark and for smith the work of caring
for people in households was just reproductive work rather than
productive work, got to get rid of that. I wrote an article you can find
that on my websites. Its an article I wrote for Economics of this Caring
Matters, I wrote it for Challenge which is a journal.
But see its up to us to change the conversation and a lot of people are
stuck in the old conversation. So weve got to keep replicating new ideas,
replicate new ideas thats how they become part of the mainstream and
thats the only way that you really have cultural transformation,
replicate.
Philip:

Okay. Wonderful. Thank you Riane and if anyone on the phone would like
to ask a question, please hit 1 and then if youre on the webcast please
go ahead and type in your comments, also. And --

James:

I think if weve heard from the class, we wrote if Riane our deepest
appreciation for her luminous work and helping us all in the deep south
actualization process that is also a cultural and systemic actualization
process.

Riane:

Absolutely. Its you have to have the self but just working on the self, this
is where my book the Power of Partnership is so useful. It really connects
the dots that are trying to heal ourselves in the domination system is
like trying to go up on a down elevator you know. So yes you have to
work on yourself but then use that energy that you release that
actualizing to change thats around the context.

James:

Well thanks again Riane and we look forward to future connecting.

Riane:

Well its always a pleasure to be with you and Im so glad I got to listen to
part of the introduction. That was a gift. Thank you and thank you all and
I look forward to meeting some of you or seeing some of you as we say
online in our webinars. So thank you and bless you and I guess Ill just
sign off then.

James:

Thank you. Thank you.

Riane:

Thank you my dear.

Philip:

Thank you Riane.

Riane:

Bye-bye.
June 25, 2014 | p. 21

James:

Bye. So Philip?

Philip:

Yes. Yes.

James:

So now weve completed the Pillar on Systems Thinking and

Peacebuilding and were moving towards that last pillar on activation and
we have some wonderful presentations in store for our class. I would just
as you will begin to as we will begin to wrap up that final pillar. And as we
begin to wrap up this fourth pillar to really try to do your synthesis work.
If you could maybe write a few paragraphs that you can share on the
Facebook page or on some of you blog, on your blogs, or share with
others in some other way what is the nugget that you take from listening
to Don Beck and David Korten and Riane Eisler and the expression of the
12 simple rules for systems thinking Ive articulated from Cultivating
Peace? What is the core and really what does this mean for you as an
actor? How is doing a four-week session on systems thinking really given
you direction in terms of your own action? Lots to think about and to
synthesize there but I think its been a very rich pillar and I think with that
Philip, I would hand it back to you.

[1:20:01]
Philip:

All right. James, wonderful. Thank you so much, very, very rich and well
include the website into the email and also post on the Facebook and just
remind you that next week, well be looking at the 21st Century Peace
Ambassador as Evolutionary Leader and also the Summer of Peace and
well have some special guests joining us for that one.
And so James have a wonderful rest of your evening there in Crestone
and for people who would like to join the breakout groups if youre on
the phone, please just stay on the line. If youre not joining the breakout
group on the phone, please go ahead and hang up and have a peaceful
rest of your morning, evening, afternoon or night and if youre online and
would like to join please call in on the email that was sent to you with the
phone number or if you like you can call this general pin number country
code 1-310-409-2027, 1-310-409-2027. The pin number is 563009,
563009. And Ill just give it a second here for people to sort themselves
out and then well get started. So one minute. All right my friends, so
were in we have the small groups together and again just

[1:21:43]

End of Audio

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June 25, 2014 | p. 22