BBL IN SENATE - Hearing On The BBL With Other Sectors and Government Agencies, June 2, 2015

Repu blic of t h e Ph ilippin es
CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES
SENATE
Pasay City
COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT

JOINT WITH THE COMMITTEES ON
PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION; AND
CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF CODES
DATE
Tuesday, June 2, 2015
TIME
10:00 a.m.
VENUE
Sen. Ambrosio B. Padilla Room

2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines
Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard
Pasay City
AGENDA
Senate Bill No. 2408 - An Act Providing for the

Basic Law for the Bangsamoro and Abolishing the
Autonomous
Region
in
Muslim
Mindanao,
Repealing for the Purpose Republic Act No. 9054,
entitled An Act to Strengthen and Expand the
Organic Act for the Autonomous Region in Muslim
Mindanao and Republic Act No. 6734, entitled An
Act Providing for an Organic Act for the
Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, and for
Other Purposes (by Senators Drilon, Sotto,
Legarda, Recto, Binay, Escudero, Aquino, Angara,
P. Cayetano, Honasan and Guingona)
ATTENDANCE
SENATORS PRESENT:
HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS JR.
HON. FRANCIS G. ESCUDERO
HON. RALPH G. RECTO
- Chairman, Committee
on Local Government
- Member
- Ex officio Member
Committee on Local Government

Joint with the Committees on Peace,
Unification and Reconciliation; and
Constitutional Amendments and
Revision of Codes
Page 2
GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Jose Y. Lorena
Hon. Senen Bacani
Hon. Kim Jacinto-Henares
Hon. Joji Aragon
Hon. Ma. Gloria Tango

Mr. Ryan Lita
Mr. Leocadio Trovela
Atty. Luis Catibayan
Hon. Nemesio Gako
Mr. Francisco Dakila
Atty. Teofilo Ragadio

Atty. Arifa Ala
Hon. Ariel Ronquillo
Ms. Maria Teresita Semana
Ms. Margarita Songco
Atty. Adzlan Emran

Mr. Ver Angelo Sumabat
Mr. Macabangkit Lanto
Mr. Amroussi Tillah Rasul
Ms. Mary Kathleen Bueza
Ms. Emmeline Verzosa
Undersecretary, Office of the

Presidential Adviser on the
Peace Process (OPAPP)
Member, Government Peace
Negotiating Panel for Talks with the
MILF
Commissioner, Bureau of
Internal Revenue (BIR)
Assistant Secretary, Department
of Labor and Employment (DOLE)
Assistant Secretary, DOLE
Department of Budget and
Management (DBM)
Director, Department of the
Interior and Local Government (DILG)
Director, Department of Trade and
Industry (DTI)
Undersecretary, Department of
Health (DOH)
Managing Director, Bangko Sentral
ng Pilipinas (BSP)
BSP
BSP
Assistant Commissioner, Civil
Service Commission (CSC)
Director III, Commission on
Higher Education (CHED)
National Economic Development
Authority (NEDA)
Mindanao Development Authority
Bureau of Customs (BoC)
Former Ambassador
Managing Director, SAFAYA, Inc.
Womens Peace Table
Executive Director, Philippine
Commission on Women

Revision of Codes
Page 3
Mr. Drieza Lininding
Mr. Lominog Lao

Mr. Edgar Bullecer
Ms. Samirah Tomawis
Secretary General, Bangsamoro

National Movement
for Peace and Development
Founding Chairman, SAKSI, Inc.
Director, Promotion of Investments
and Sustainability Organization
SENATORS STAFF:
Atty. Luzviminda D. Lavarias
Atty. Jose R. Cadiz Jr.
Ms. Shiela Mae P. Enriquez
Mr. Julius Palamos
Ms. Arifah M. Jamil
Ms. Margie Mandunas
Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez
Mr. Ricardo Calimag
Mr. Ginno Jaralve
Ms. Fiona Conde
Ms. Charlotte Franco
Mr. G. H. Ambat
Mr. Claro Sampaga
Ms. Marni F. Ortega
O/S Marcos
- do - do
- do
- do
O/S Angara
O/S Binay
- do
O/S Ejercito
- do
O/S Escudero
O/S Guingona
O/S Osmea
O/S Recto
SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Ms. Assumption Ingrid B. ReyesMr. Elpidio H. Calica, MNSA
Ms.
Ms.
Ms.
Ms.
Ms.
Ms.
Anna Leah C. Catimbang

Jeanne M. Baisa
Cleofe P. Caturla
Nida A. Mancol
Jennifer L. Flores
Christine M. Nery
Committee Secretary, Committee

on Local Government
Committee Secretary, Committee
on Peace, Unification and
Reconciliation
Committee Stenographer
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do

Revision of Codes
Page 4
Ms. Cindell B. Gealan

Ms. Jo B. Cadaing
Ms. Avigail G. Andaya
Ms. Ana Marie F. Deplomo
Mr. Felipe A. Dahino
Ms. Mylene R. Palino
Ms. Abigael Olson
Mr. Menardo Bago
Mr. Ronnie Cabaero
Mr. Benjamin Oria
Mr. Rolindo Lopez
Mr. Carlito Bancifra
Mr. Elvis Joseph Diaz
Committee Stenographer
- do Legislative Staff
- do
- do
- do
Legislative Page
- do
- do
OSAA/SES
- do - do
Audio Operator
(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)
COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

COMMITTEES ON PEACE, UNIFICATION AND RECONCILIATION;
AND CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF
CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-1
June 2, 2015
10:39 a.m.
1
AT 10:39 A.M., HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS

JR., CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON LOCAL
GOVERNMENT, CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).
gentlemen.
Good morning, ladies and
The hearing of the Committee on Local Government joint
with the Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation and the

Committee on Constitutional Amendments and Revision of Codes of
June 2, 2015 is called to order.
The agenda that we have today, I think I need not read the
entire title, is Senate Bill No. 2408 which is essentially what has come
to be known to us as the draft Bangsamoro Basic Law.
I would like to acknowledge for the record the resource persons
who are with us today, with an apology for the late start as we all
suffer from the vagaries of traffic. In any case, let me go down the
list:
from OPAPP, our constant companion at these hearings, Usec
Jose Lorena and also the chair from the Government Peace Panel, Usec
Bacani, who has also been our constant companion in all of these
hearings; from the Womens Peace Table, the representatives are
program associate of Gender, Peace and Security Program of the
Women and Gender Institute, Ms. Mary Kathleen Sarte Bueza and Ms.
Rina Angelica Fulo who is the project assistant of the same

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-1
June 2, 2015
10:39 a.m.
2
organization; and from the Philippine Commission on Women, the

executive director is Ms. Emmeline Verzosa; from the health sector,
the DOH is represented by the Usec of Health, Dr. Nemesio Gako
Doctor, good morning; from the Regional Health Office 10, Department
of Health, they are represented by Atty. Jamaloden Basar and Ms.
Hazel Martinez; from the youth sector, the secretary general of the
Bangsamoro National Movement for Peace and Development, Mr.
Drieza Lininding; the founding chairman of SAKSI, Incorporated,
Engineer Lominog Lao; from the business sector, the co-convenor of
the Promotion of Investments and Sustainability Organization,
Mr.
Edgar Bullecer; from other government offices, from the DepEd, Usec
Alberto Muyot is here to represent the secretary; the Department of
Finance is represented by the BIR, no less than Chairman Kim
Henares; from the DTI, the Industry Development Group, the
representative that we have is Mr. Luis Catibayan; and from the DOLE,
their representative is Asec Joji Aragon and Assistant Secretary Ma.
Gloria Tango; from the DBM, the representative who has been sent
here is Atty. Ryan Lita; and from the DILG, the OIC Director of
Barangay Operations Office, Mr. Leocadio Trovela; from the Bangko
Sentral ng Pilipinas, represented by the managing director of the

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-1
June 2, 2015
10:39 a.m.
3
Monetary Policy Subsector, Dr. Francisco Dakila Jr., the acting deputy
general counsel, Atty. Teofilo Ragadio and director of Integrated
Supervision Department II, Atty. Arifa Ala; from the Bureau of
Customs, Atty. Angelo Sumabat; from the Civil Service Commission,
the
assistant
commissioner,
Ariel
Ronquillo;
from
CHED,
the
chairperson Patricia Licuanan is represented by Dr. Ma. Teresita

Semana, the director of Higher Education Development Center; from
NEDA, the deputy director general, Ms. Margarita Songco; and from
Mindanao Development Authority, Atty. Adzlan Emran and the director
of Investment and Public Affairs, Mr. Romeo Montenegro; from the
NTRC or National Tax Research Center, Ms. Trinidad Rodriguez; and
also we have former DOJ undersecretary and former ambassador, Atty.
Mac Lanto; and finally, the managing director of the SAFAYA, Inc.,
Amroussi Tillah Rasul.
Since we have a full agenda to go through, essentially what I
have done in all of these hearings where there are many resource
persons, I would like to just go through those sectors that have
submitted position papers on the subject that we have before us. And
essentially, what Ill try to do is allow everyone who has provided a
position paper to explainperhaps not read the position paper as it is

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-1
June 2, 2015
10:39 a.m.
4
already on the recordbut to explain the highlights and the salient

points of that position and maybe one or two questions but not an
extended discussion before we move on to the next position paper.
But, of course, should there be any interventions that any one that is
here would want to make, please just indicate that to the Chair and I
will, of course, accommodate any other questions to the Committee.
To begin, we can ask the representative of the DILG, DILG
Director Leocadio Trovela, to go through the DILG position paper of
which the Committee is in receipt.
Mr. Trovela, if you would like to proceed, please?
MR. TROVELA. Good morning, Your Honor.
The position paper that I have right now is the one submitted
actually to the Ad hoc Committee on Bangsamoro Basic Law addressed
to Honorable Rufus Rodriguez dated October 21, 2014.
Basically, it
contained the joint position paper prepared by DILG with National

Security Council, the Armed Forces of the Philippines and the Philippine
National Police: emphasizing that the DILG, DND, the National Security
Council, AFP, NAPOLCOM and PNP all support the passage of the BBL
submitted by the Bangsamoro Transition Commission to Congress last
September, 2014; highlighting that the BBL will pave the way for

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-1
June 2, 2015
10:39 a.m.
5
peace and development in the country as well as strengthen the

Bangsamoro governments capability for the effective delivery of basic
services through the establishment of a highly efficient, competent,
professional and dedicated police force in the region as contained in
the joint position paper; emphasizing also that the defense and
external
security
remains
reserve
power
of
the
national
government/alicc

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
1
MR. TROVELA.
...national government.
And then consistent
with the power sharing, public order and safety within the Bangsamoro
is a concurrent power of both the national and the Bangsamoro
governments. What this basically means is that the Bangsamoro
government would have the initial or primary responsibility over
policing matters within the Bangsamoro, an arrangement that is similar
to other local government units.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, that is critical to the
entire discussion, especially of the police, that the question of the
Bangsamoro police has become not a contentious one but a much
discussed one. And what you have said is that there have been
statements made that it will be akin or similar or the same as to what
the relationship is between regular local governments and the PNP.
But in my view, because I have looked at it and I have a little
experience on the matter, it does not seem to be exactly the same.
So that last statement that you made, could you read it again
and then explain to us exactly how that is going to be operationalized?
MR. TROVELA.
The statement, sir, is that the Bangsamoro
government would have the initial or primary responsibility over

policing matters.
10

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
2
What does that mean
exactly?
MR. TROVELA.
An arrangement that is similar to other local
government units, meaning, the Bangsamoro Police created under BBL

shall be organized, maintained, supervised and utilized for law
enforcement and the maintenance of peace and order in the
Bangsamoro. Faithful to the constitutional mandate of having only one
police force, the BBL expressly provides that the Bangsamoro Police
shall be part of the PNP.
In this connection, the intergovernmental
relationsas we are proposingmechanism was provided for to ensure

that
cooperation
and
coordination
between
the
national
and
Bangsamoro governments will be achieved.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). What is the mechanism to
ensure that?
Because, essentially, in the local government context,
although there is a very close coordination, it is essentially informal

and operational control remains with the PNP central office.
We, as
governors, mayors, LGU executives, of course, have to work very

closely with our police but, at the end of the day, the command
structure remains supreme. So is there a difference between what is
being proposed in the draft BBL or will it be exactly the same?
11

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
3
MR. TROVELA. As earlier emphasized, the Bangsamoro Police

will be part of the PNP.
The Bangsamoro Police shall be under the
command and direction of the PNP chief. And then, the Bangsamoro
Police Board shall be part of the Napolcom and then will perform the
functions of the Napolcom in the Bangsamoro. In the exercise of the
functions of the police board, it has the power to investigate
complaints against the police, etcetera, etcetera.
And then on the
matter of operational control and supervision, the chief minister shall

act as the deputy of the Napolcom. As part of the position paper, the
deputy of the Napolcom in the Bangsamoro shall exercise operational
control and supervision of the Bangsamoro Police.
Wait. The chief minister
will exercise operational supervision and control?

MR. TROVELA. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). That does not exist in any
other LGU.
MR. TROVELA.
Right now, under the present setup, it is the
local chief executive exercising the operational control.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The provincial director, the
chief of police in any city does not, in fact, take orders from the
governor or the mayor. They take orders from the Philippine National
12

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
4
Police. The governors and the mayors, of course, as I said, work in

close coordination.
In fact, most local governments assist the PNP
dahil sa kakulangan nga ng resources, etcetera.
Of course, because
local government officials want the police operational, kapag kulang na

iyong resources na binibigay ng central office, tumutulong kami,
tumutulong ang local government. Pero hindi namin pwedeng orderan
ang police kung hindi iyon ang order ng Crame.
Now, that is why this
came upI think our OPAPP and the GPH panel, panay ang tanong ko
rito, if the chief minister issues an order to a member of the
Bangsamoro Police, can an order from the chief, PNP in Crame override
that order?
MR. TROVELA.
Ang nandito po sa aming position is that the
chief minister, like what you said, Your Honor, performs similar
functions as the local chief executives under R.A. 6975, granting
operational control and supervision over police units within their
respective jurisdiction.
Operational control and supervision referring
toito po iyong definition ng operational control and supervision, of

the local chief executives right now with
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ng LGU, ng pangkaraniwan
na LGU.
13

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
5
MR. TROVELA. LGU po. The power to direct, superintend and

oversee the day-to-day functions of police investigation
But you see, direct, but
hindi pwede. Kasi ang direct, ibig sabihin, sasabihin mo doon sa PD

mo o sasabihin mo doon sa hepe mo, May problema doon, puntahan
ninyo.
Tingnan ninyo kung ano ang nangyayari.
ninyong tulong, tutulungan kayo namin.
Ano ang kailangan
May report ako galing sa
isang barangay captain, galing sa isang mayor, may nangyayari doon,

may nagkakapatayan doon, or whatever, that is direct. Pero hindi mo
pwedeng orderan ang pulis.
Now, essentially, that is where the problem arises in the
conception of the Bangsamoro.
We have come up against this before.
So again, can, let us saywell, I guess, they are essentially the RD

but can chief, PNP kapag inorderan ng isang pulis the RDsiguro RD
kasi Bangsamoro is a regionkapag sinabi ng chief minister, You go
and do this. Investigate this o habulin ninyo itong mgawhatever it
is, kapag sinabi ng chief, PNP, Hindi iyan ang gagawin natin, what
happens?
MR. TROVELA. I am sorry, Your Honor, wala po dito sa amin.
problem, it is not clear.
That is precisely the
What exactly is the relationship of the
14

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
6
Bangsamoro Police when it comes to chain of command?

conception, what is your chain of command?
In your
Where does the chief
minister come in to the chain of command? You say that it is still the
local PNP, or the Bangsamoro Police will still be under the direct
command chain of Crame starting with the chief, PNP. Am I correct?
MR. TROVELA. Yes po.
That is what you have in
your position paper.

MR. TROVELA. Sir, the chief minister acting as deputy of the
Napolcom.
What exactly are the
functions and powers of the chief minister relative to the Bangsamoro

Police? And how does that relate to the chain of command that begins,
well, of course, with the commander-in-chief, but within the internal
chain of command of the PNP, the chief of the PNP?
How does that
work?
MR. TROVELA.
The specific description as to the role of the
chief minister insofar as that concerns, Your Honor, is not explicitly

stated in my position paper that I have right now.
Very well.
No.
Fair
enough. I mean, that is exactly what we have run up against in many
15

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-1
June 2, 2015
10:49 a.m.
7
of the hearings. That it is not clear exactly, that is why we will have to
clarify that.
But to move on.
As to the qualifications, sino ang pwedeng
gawing Bangsamoro police?
Ito ba ay basta iyong chief minister
magbibigay ng listahan, sasabihin, Ito lahat ang magiging pulis

namin?
Or do they have to go to the PNPA?
What is exactly the
procedure for a Bangsamoro person, as it has been designed, or

someone who is within the Bangsamoro territoryI mean, inhabitant
of the Bangsamoro territory to become a policeman?
How will they
become a policeman?
MR. TROVELA. Similarly, membership... /jmb
16

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
1
MR. TROVELA. Similarly, membership of the Bangsamoro

Police, as contained in our position paper, shall be headed by the
Bangsamoro police director who will have, at least, two deputies. The
Bangsamoro police director and his deputies will be selected by the
chief minister, as recommended by Bangsamoro Police Board and must
be police officer with the rank of, at least, police chief superintendent.
However, for a period of 10 years immediately following the enactment
of the BBL, the Bangsamoro police director and the deputies may have
a rank of police senior superintendent.
So, your question, sir, the
police director and his deputies will be selected by the chief minister as
recommended by the board.
command structure.
Okay.
We have something akin to that.
kasi tayong regional government sa Pilipinas.
So, iyon ang

Wala naman
So, the closest thing
that we have is the provincial director being chosen from a short list of
three by the governor, city mayors ganoon din. So, what will be that
process in thesa command structure iyon.
But ang tanong ko, iyong pangkaraniwan na pulis, paano
magiging pulis, iyong rank and file ng PNP ng Bangsamoro Police?
MR.
TROVELA.
Appointments.
The
appointments
of
the
members of the Bangsamoro Police will be throughthorough
17

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
2
evaluation
should
precede
the
appointments
of
officer
and
members.
Again, what was the
phrase?
MR.
TROVELA.
Thorough
evaluations
will
precede
appointments of the officers and members of the Bangsamoro Police.

Okay.
What is the
thorough evaluation?
MR. TROVELA. In identical manner as that provided for under
Section 31. Consistent with R.A. 6975, Police Officer I to Senior Police
Officer IV appointed by the Bangsamoro police director and attested by
the Civil Service Commission po, Your Honor, and then personnel for
the Bangsamoro Police other than police officer shall also be appointed
by the Bangsamoro police director.
So, who will do the
thorough evaluation? Kasi ang sinasabi ninyo iyong police ina-appoint

ng chief minister essentially.
MR. TROVELA. Yes po, as recommended by the board.
Pero upon thorough
evaluation.
MR. TROVELA. By the board.
18

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
3
THE
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
Sinong
gagawa
ng
thorough evaluation?
MR. TROVELA. The Bangsamoro Police Board po.
Bangsamoro police board
which is also going to be appointed by the chief minister. So, walang

thorough evaluation na gagawin ng central office ng PNP, doon lahat
gagawin sa Bangsamoro. So, basically, internal lahat ang pag-appoint
ng command structure. Iyong command structure ang mag-evaluate
doon sa kanilang mga aplikante na pulis, wala dito sa pag-assess doon
sa pulis na iyan doon sa Crame, lahat gagawin internally sa
Bangsamoro, as opposed to what we have as regular assessments and
validations that are being done by our regular police.
They have a
template, they have a very clear testing procedure that they go

through.
Iyong
pangkaraniwan
na
pulis,
anong
kaibahan
ng
pangakarinawan na pulis sa isang LGU sa labas ng Bangsamoro at

iyong pulis doon sa loob ng Bangsamoro? What are the differences?
Kasi parang ang naririnig ko, basically, ia-appoint lang ng chief
minister, sasabihin thorough evaluation pero iyong thorough evaluation
is also being done by the chief minister at saka iyong command
structure na kanyang in-appoint.
19

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
4
MR. TROVELA. Yes po. Pero kailangan po consistent din ang

evaluation and appointments of the officers and members with Section
31 of the existing Republic Act 6975 or PNP Law.
Okay.
What are those
tests? What are the assessments that need to be made?

MR. TROVELA.
Unfortunately, wala po akong listahan ng
assessment.
Oo, sige, fair enough.
Okay.
So, the critical point here is that we want a consistency across
the country about the quality of our policemen. And also, kaya naman
ginawa ang Philippine National Police at tinanggal essentially ang local
control sa police ay para hindi maging private army ang local police ng
sinumang nakaupo na elected political officials.
Iyon ang pangamba
dito nga sa Bangsamoro Police dahil mukhang ia-appoint lahat ng chief

minister mula saanong tawag ninyo, regional director?
Hindi RD.
Iba iyong tawag ninyo. The Bangsamoro police directorate.

MR. TROVELA. Bangsamoro police director.
Director.
So, he has a
directorate but he is also appointed by the chief minister.
So, what
you talked about, the thorough assessment will also be made by the
20

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
5
Bangsamoro police directorate.
So, the whole process is internal
within the Bangsamoro.

MR. TROVELA. If I may again cite, that the evaluation should
be consistent with Section 31 of 6975.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay.
So, lets move on from that point. Sige, keep going. What else
did you want to talk about?
MR. TROVELA.
The Bangsamoro Police Board shall have the
power to investigate citizens and complaints against Bangsamoro

Police. And then the appeals from decisions of the board may be filed
with the Napolcom. And then also part of the position is the laws on
policingthat the Bangsamoro Police shall be responsible for enforcing
laws enacted by Congress and the Bangsamoro Parliament on Law and
Order and Public Safety. And then the Bangsamoro Police shall adopt
a community policing mechanism in supporting the development of
peace, law, order, structures and systems of indigenous persons.
That basically, Your Honor, are the gists or the contents of the
joint position papers of the
Okay.
While we are in
receipt of the position paper, I just wanted to clarify or point out that
the problem is not that we are particularly opposed but it is unclear in
21

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
6
the draft BBL exactly what the functions are. And there are concerns
that because the entire process of appointing, choosing, assessing both
the rank and file of the Bangsamoro Police and the command structure
of the police directorate in the Bangsamoro is internal. What I think
would be a more equitable process would be to follow what other
regions have, what other provinces have, and that there has to be
established kung nag-schooling, nag-training, pumasa ng exam, et
cetera.
So, those I think the requirements so that we have a
consistent quality of policing not only in the rest of the country but also
in Bangsamoro that we have a consistent, shall we say, evaluation
procedure for everybody.
I think Usec Bacani has been waving his hands since kanina pa.
So, Usec Bacani, do you have something to add?
MR. BACANI.
Yes, I just wanted to clarify, Your Honor, the
issue of the Bangsamoro Police.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Beforesi Senator Chiz has
been walking around, for the record, Senator Chiz Escudero has come
to joint us. Thank you, Senator Chiz.
Yes, please go ahead Usec Bacani.
MR. BACANI. If I may continue, Your Honor?
22

CODES
Caturla
III-1
June 2, 2015
10:59 a.m.
7
First, to clarify the Bangsamoro Police is part of an integrated

Philippine National Police.
Its not an independent police force.
The
qualifications to become a policeman would be the same because PNP

would be doing the hiring of any police person anywhere in the
The issue of operational control and supervision of the chief
minister over the regional police is actually in the existing law,
Republic Act 9054 where the ARMM governor has operational control
and supervision over the ARMM police director.
Yes, we have seen the
problems that have arisen from that system.

MR. BACANI. But the chain of command is very clear from the
chief PNP up to the last policeman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Again, I think the ultimate
test, can an order by the chief minister to his Bangsamorocpc
23

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
1
the chief minister to his
Bangsamoro Police be countermanded by the chief, PNP.

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor. We have clarified that several
times. In case of any difference of opinion between the chief minister
and the chief, PNP, definitely, the decision of the chief, PNP is the one
to be followed, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Very good. Because
the first time I asked this question, there was also a suggestion that
there would be a negotiation in terms of conflicting orders, okay. But
now, I thank you for clarifying that.
Now, in terms of appointing the rank-and-file members and the
choosing of the rank-and-file members and the officers of the PNP,
how is the process conceived under the draft BBL?
MR. BACANI.
Since its part and parcel of the Philippine
National Police, the qualifications as in the PNP Law remain to be the

same. One needs to be a college graduate to become a member of the
So, anyone who wants to become part of
the Philippine National Police has to be a college graduate and has to

be qualified to become a police person.
24

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
2
For example, in the existing ARMM today, there are probably

6,000 policemen. I would like to think that at least 5,800 of those will
probably continue to be the same. Its possible that there are 200
Iyong 5,800 nasa ARMM
ngayon?
MR. BACANI.
Nasa ARMM ngayon or part of the Philippine
National Police. Its very possible that there may be qualified members
of the Bangsamoro Islamic Armed Forces who may be qualified, who
are college graduates and who may be interested and who may be
qualified by the PNP to become policemen. So, theres that possibility
that the couple of hundred of the Bangsamoro Police will come from
qualified members of the Bangsamoro Islamic Armed Forces, Your
Honor.
But they will undergo the
same testing procedures and evaluation procedures as any other

ordinary policeman?
MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor, because theyre part of the PNP.
They have to follow all of the rules and regulations as called for in the
PNP Law, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Escudero has some
questions.
25

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
3
SEN. ESCUDERO. Just to ask, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Trovela, sir, youre with the Napolcom?
MR. TROVELA. No, sir. Im not with the Napolcom. Im with
the local government sector of the DILG.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Meaning, barangay operations, and youre
authorized to speak for the DILG on this matter about the Bangsamoro
Police, sir?
Just to ask.
I mean, without questioning your
qualifications because you are the one that was sent here, and youve
been answering questions about the Bangsamoro Police and what the
DILGs views are with respect to the Bangsamoro Police.
MR. TROVELA.
Yes, based on the position paper that I have
coming from our legal service.

SEN. ESCUDERO. But this is not your core competency?
MR. TROVELA.
Because I am not from the National Police
Commission.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Now, your comments earlier, was it based on
the draft BBL or the House version already of the BBL?
MR. TROVELA.
Based on the position paper that I have, its
based on the
SEN. ESCUDERO.
The draft bill or the amended version
already, sir?
26

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
4
MR. TROVELA. It is based on

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, I dontMr. Leocadio, youre
the same last name as my mothers sister, nothing against reallybut
may I ask, Mr. Chairman, hopefully if we excuse all the principals of
agencies, no blame on you, sir. But can they sendcan the DILG, for
example, send a representative and bind the agency? Its difficult to
be hearing from resource persons who cannot bind the agency and are
simply relying oniyon lang iyong problema ko, sir. Meaning, weve
been hearing the correct answers form our resource persons since we
started.
But the thing is, they cannot bind the officials who will
actually implement this bill.

Mr. Trovela, kasi kung
titingnan ninyo iyong position paper ninyo, I would say 80 percent of it

is dealing with police matters.
MR. TROVELA. Yes, sir.
Kaya ang kailangan natin
iyong marunong tungkol sa police matters.

Now, it is no judgment on you that you are not an expert on
police matters because essentially you provided different functions.
So, perhaps we could ask the DILG toWho wrote this position paper?
27

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
5
MR. TROVELA. Your Honor, this is the joint position paper that
I have, galing po ito sa
The cover letter of the
position paper you gave me is the cover letter that you have to
Congressman Rufus Rodriguez.
It has signatories, although not
signed, Secretary Gazmin, Secretary Roxas, Director General Purisima

pa rin, and CS Greg Catapang. So, sino ang sumulat nito?
MR. TROVELA. Ito po iyongSinabi ko nga po kanina, this is
not yet theIto iyong naka-address namin doon sa Ad Hoc Committee
on the Bangsamoro Basic Law last October 21, 2014. Ito lang po kasi
iyong position paper na for the Senate, kumbaga, ang dala ko po ito
lang.
Ito pong pinadala sa akin ng aming legal service.
So, ang
pagkaalam ko po, the position paper na ito ay ginawa ng DILG,

National Security Council, AFP and then PNP, sang-ayon po sa
information coming from the legal service.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Pero itong cover letter mo
walang nakapirma.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, is your copy signed?
MR. TROVELA. Ill check po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir. Your copy.
MR. TROVELA. Wala rin po. Unsigned po.
28

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
6
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, may I make a manifestation?

Minamadali tayo, pinupukpok tayo ng gobyerno, tapos iyong position
paper hindi pa officially signed, and they send representatives. They
talk so seriously outside and yet, inside the committee, how can we
get accurate information?
from you.
Again, sir, without taking anything away
You were ordered to come here.
But hopefully, can the
secretariat, Mr. Chairman, communicate with the DILG to kindly send

someone clothed with authority to bind the agency itself.
Furthermore, Mr. Trovela,
kawawa ka dahil ikaw ang pinadala rito so you have to catch all of
these for yourself.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sorry po, ha.
This is the position paper
you made for the House. You have no position paper for the Senate.
MR. TROVELA. Ang sabi po lang sa amin ng legal service
Considering all of these,
marami nang nangyari sa House. May version na ang House. Siguro

dapat iyong iyong position paper, well take that into account.
Well
take note at the very least.

Now, I think the best way, the only way to remedy this, we will
let you go, make a call, call your offices baka maihabol pa kung
29

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
7
sinuman ang puwedeng expert tungkol sa police matters bago matapos

iyong hearing na ito. Okay. Mr. Trovela, thank you very much.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Again, my apologies, Mr. Trovela. Nothing against you.
Just one point, Mr. Chairman, Id like to make of record.
Secretary Bacani made mention of college graduates of PNP. Just for
your information, sir, we have filed a bill which seekskasi dati po, di
ba, high school graduate, puwede na kayong magpulis. Kaya lang, sa
sama ng quality ng high school graduates natinkaya nga nag-K to 12
tayoginawang college graduate.
So, two things on that, sir. One, we gave a five-year period for
former PNP members who are not college graduates to comply. I think
thats extended several times. Para kawawa naman, sayang naman,
police na sila dati, na kumuha ng degree. Perhaps, the same opening
can be given also to some members of the MILF whether written in the
law or clarified in the IRR or somewhere else.
And secondly, sir, we have filed a bill reducing that requirement
all over again na sinuman ang nakatapos sa K-12 is eligible to apply
and be a member of the police and for any other position in
government for that matter and hopefully, the private sector as well,
para ang tingin po ng taoTumatango si Usec Muyotpara ang tingin
30

CODES
Mancol
IV-1
June 2, 2015
11:09 a.m.
8
po ng tao, iyong K-12 hindi dagdag na dalawang taon bago

magkatrabaho ang isang tao.
Menos na dalawang taon iyon para
magkatrabaho because if he finishes that K-12 program, hindi naman

na niya kailangan talaga magkolehiyo para magkatrabaho pa.
We
intend to proceed along those lines, sir.

MR. BACANI. Opo. Kung. . . (nam)
31

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
1
MR. BACANI.
...Opo.
Kung anuman po iyong rules and
regulations affecting the Philippine National Police, the same rules

should apply to the Bangsamoro Police because its part and parcel of
the Philippine National Police. Regarding qualifications, of course po, if
you will relapse them per law, the same rules will have to apply, Your
Honor.
Well, assuming that the
assumption, the premise that we are using is that the K-12 will
produce a higher level of training and education, therefore, allowing
them already to perform their functions as policemen, my concern is
that there should be consistency across the board that any policeman,
from wherever they came from, will have the same qualifications, will
have passed the same exams, will have undergone the same training.
Pare-pareho lahat para naman maliwanag kung ano ang kanilang
kakayahan. And that is onlyThen, the appointing procedures should
also be the same that kung may mag-a-apply na gustong mag-pulis,
kailangan
mapagdaanan,
pangkaraniwang pulis.
pareho
rin
ng
dinadaanan
ng
Ang kinakatakutan ng iba is that bastat i-a-
appoint na lang ng chief minister kahitbasta iyong gusto niya na

kahit walang qualification, walang training, bastat siguro tao niyadi
32

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
2
ito, ito, ito, gagawing pulis.
Iyon ang kinakatakutan.
Iyon ang
pangamba.
MR. BACANI.
We wholeheartedly agree, Your Honor.
Okay. Very good.
So, thank you for that.

Mr. Trovela, please stay on your phone and try and get
somebody who can help us here.
All right.
Well move on now to Assistant Commissioner
Ronquillo of the Civil Service Commission, who have also given us a

position paper.
MR. RONQUILLO.
Good morning, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Senator Escudero.

Your Honor, the Civil Service Commission has submitted a
position paper last January 2015. And this position paper states that
the Civil Service Commission supports the noble intention of the bill.
However, we believe that things should be done within the framework
of our Constitution. And our position actually raised three pointsthat
all have implications on the constitutionality of the proposed bill. The
first is with respect to the creation of Bangsamoro Civil Service.
33

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
3
And if I may be allowed, Your Honor, may I read the particular

provision?
This is contained in Section 2, Paragraph 8, Article V of SB No.
2408, and it states as follows: There is hereby created a Bangsamoro
Civil Service office that will develop and administer a professional civil
service corps, without prejudice to the power, authority and duty of
the national Civil Service Commission.
The Bangsamoro government
shall enact a civil service law for this purpose. This law shall govern
the conduct of civil servants, the qualifications for non-elective
positions, adopt the merit and fitness system and protect the civil
service eligible in various government positions including governmentowned and controlled corporations with original charters in the
Bangsamoro.
The Bangsamoro government shall have the primary
disciplinary authority over its own officials and employees.

That provision, Your Honors, is unequivocal in saying that the
Bangsamoro government, through a Bangsamoro Civil Service, shall be
the one to develop and administer a professional corps on civil service
in the Bangsamoro without prejudice to the power, authority and duty
of the national Civil Service Commission.
Your Honor, the phrase,
without prejudice to the power and authority of the national Civil
34

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
4
Service Commission, to us, appears to be vague.

what does it mean.
We do not know
Because by saying that they are in charge of
development
Yes.
And, in fact, its
prejudicial to the powers of the CSC.

MR. BACANI.
Yes, Your Honor. Because that means, they will
be arrogating onto themselves a power that actually belongs to the

central Civil Service Commission.
Well, of course, you have
hit upon one of the main points of argument in this entire draft BBL
that we cannot allow the diminishing of powers of a constitutionally
created body, which CSC is one.
MR. BACANI.
Yes, Your Honor.

MR. BACANI.
Thats one.

MR. BACANI.
Okay. So that is
That is one.
Thats one point, Your Honor.
You have three points to
make. Yes.
35

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
5
MR. BACANI.
The other point that we want to raise is the
proposed provision saying that in each constitutional commission,

there has to be a member that must come from the Bangsamoro.
Your Honor, for us, it doesnt have any constitutional basis. Because
the qualifications of the members of each constitutional commission
are actually defined by the Constitution itself.
Now, for the Civil
Service Commission, it simply states there that the appointee must be

35 years of age at the time of the appointment, must be a Filipino
citizen, and must have a proven capacity for public administration.
And to say that he has to come from Bangsamoro will be adding to
that requirement which was prescribed by the Constitution, I think,
Your Honor, thats unconstitutional.
And finally, our third point is with respect to what will happen to
the present employees of the ARMM because the law has been silent
about it. I think, Your Honor, what should govern here is the law that
protects the security of tenure of present permanent employees in any
government agency.
Reorganization.
Im referring to R.A. 6656 or the Law on
The establishment of the Bangsamoro should be
considered a reorganization of the ARMM. And, therefore, we cannot
36

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
6
just terminate the present employees of the ARMM without following

the provisions of the R.A. 6656.
Yes. Actually, the question
during our out-of-town hearings, the question of what will happen to

the presentI think you have over 30,000most of them are teachers
but there are about 36,000 civil servants in ARMM right now.
And
because of the language in the draft BBL which says that the ARRM
itself will be abolished and thereby abolishing all the offices under
ARMM which will then be reorganized, ang laging tanong, Anong
mangyayari doon sa mga civil servants kung iyong kanilang mga
offices ay na-abolish?
Ngayon, nandiyan pa rin ba iyong mga
guarantees of tenure, seniority, pay grade, et cetera, et cetera that are

guaranteed in the Civil Service Code.
So, I think its time to turn again to either Usec Lorena or Usec
Bacani to explain to us what is the conception here of the draft BBL.
MR. BACANI.
Okay, Your Honor. First, if I may comment on
the observation
I think we should also ask
the question with an eye tothere is also a provision that the

Bangsamoro government will have complete authority over hiring and
37

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
7
firing of employment of all government workers, the bureaucracy,

essentially. So, how does that jibe or how does that resolve itself with
the guarantees of tenure and seniority that the Civil Service Code
makes?
So, iyon ang mga tanong na hindi pa natin maisagot.
MR. BACANI.
Sige po, Your Honor.
On the three points, constitutional issue, I think its not for the
interest of anybody that any provision of the law will be declared
unconstitutional.
The intent of that provision is not in any way to
supplant any power, duty, function or authority of the Civil Service

Commission.
Its, in fact, to supplement any possible rewording
necessary, Your Honor, just to make sure its constitutional.
Its
probably something you may need to consider. Because I dont think

any party is interested in having any of the provisions being declared
later on as unconstitutional. Anything that we need to do in rewording
any provision to make sure its within the Constitution, Your Honor, is
probably worth considering.
Second, on the question of appointments, Your Honor, I think
those are more affirmative action statements. One is that, I think, in
the original draft is a matter of policy. Second, in the
38

CODES
JLFLORES
V-1
June 2, 2015
11:19 a.m.
8
Before we move beyond
that, you are adopting the Bangsamoro government?
Well adopt a
policy of affirmative action?

MR. BACANI.
Hindi po.
You know, the affirmative
action means favoring a sector or a group that seems to have been

that is recognized to have been somehow prejudiced against or left
behind in some way.
MR. BACANI.
Hindi po iyong Bangsamoro government, iyong
national government po because what was being expressed was to

have a member of the Civil Service
As far as I know, Usec
Bacani, we have not adoptedthe national government has not

adopted in any LGU or any way...
MR. BACANI.
Mayroon po, iyong sa ano.
...an affirmative action
policy
MR. BACANI.
In the existing law po, and what was finally
adopted in an ad hoc committee report .../jlf
39

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
1
MR. BACANI.
in an ad hoc committee report, nakalagay as
far as practicable. But at the same time, we have to recognize that

the appointment power of the President is absolute.
He cannot be
forced to appoint anybody to any position. Its absolute, Your Honor.

There is nothing mandatory in terms of any of those statements.
Thats why
Yes, definitely.
But if
there is a policy of affirmative action, that will, of course, influence the

appointments.
MR. BACANI.
Thats basically what has been in the existing
laws for a whileit basically says as far as practicable.
In the
proposed law, it says, as a matter of policy. In the ad hoc committee

report, it says, as far as practicable.
And we also recognize, Your
Honor, that the appointment power of the President is absolute.
He
can or cannot appointwhen he appoints somebody, kailangan po

iyonghe is not being ordered to do so.
No.
I understand that.
You cannot order the President to do anythingBut the point is, the
concept of affirmative action in terms of hiring policy, this is something
that was sort of implied in that provision that said the policy on hiring
40

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
2
within the Bagsamoro government bureaucracy will be under the

Bangsamoro government rather than under the CSC. Thats why this
question has come up because it will favor MILF.
Of course, iyong
lahat ng nakaupo MILF, syempre, kukunin mo iyong tao mo.

What happens now to the 36,000 ARMM employees whose offices
have been abolished and reorganized and iba ang nilagay?
MR. BACANI.
I think, Your Honor, we have to make sure that
the Civil Service rules and regulations are recognized because thats
how it is. Whatever applies to the national civil service core will have
to apply to those Civil Service employees in the ARMM today.
One
alternative, Your Honor, is to retain all qualified Civil Service

employees without diminution of pay or privileges and have the
number of years credited. Thats one alternative, Your Honor.
Ganito na lang.
What
happens, halimbawa, pagka mayroong isang line office, lets say,

agricultural office that a BBL will abolish, but the Bangsamoro
government reorganizes also an agricultural office, are there any
guarantees na iyong magiging civil servant doon sa agricultural office
na iyon that is almostbut is similar to the previous one will be the
ones who had occupied that office before?
41

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
3
Furthermore, what will happen to the offices or the entities,

agencies that will be entirely abolished? What happens to the people
that were working in that office?
Yeah, Usec Lorena.
MR. LORENA.
Mr. Chairman, Id like to put on record or clarify
that the provision on Civil Service in the Bangsamoro proposed draft

was taken from Article XVI, the General Provisions of Republic Act
1954 where the regional autonomous government was authorized to
establish its own Civil Service Code. And that is for one, I just like to
make it on record that its just a carryover of the existing law.
If I may read
But, Usec Lorena, you
have based all of your theories on the draft BBL on the fact that the
ARRM was a failed experiment.
So to go back to the failed
experiment anong kasabihan?is that to expect the different result

from the same action is the definition of insanity.
MR. LORENA.
Perhaps in the context of the failed experiment,
there are different versions to it. The failed experiment with respect to
the operationalization of the law or the implementation of the law but,
definitely, the law is not a failed law.
42

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
4
So I just like to make mention, Mr. Chairman

The legal context is there.
Okay. Very well. But the question is, anong mangyayari doon sa mga
civil servant na, unang-una, na-abolish na iyong kanilang opisina,
tapos na-reorganize iyong ganun din klaseng opisina.
Kasi kahit
papaano magkakaroon ng agriculture, magkakaroon ng development

officer, magkakaroon ng treasurer, all of those.
Pagka na-reorganize, sila ba ang ilalagay ulit o etsapwera na
sila?
Tapos, iyong mga offices na na-abolish, anong mangyayari
ngayon doon na hindi na-reorganize, anong mangyayari doon sa mga

empleyado doon?
MR. LORENA.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In fact, Im about to go into that. In the provision of the BTA

draft, there is a transition provision, which says, that the personnel
existing will be retained until only the qualified person will be
retained but those who do not meet the qualification may have to be
given certain incentive to leave because we would like to capacitate
the new Bangsamoro Transition Authority.
kayat nandiyan iyan dahil qualified.
Its reasonable to assume
Hindi naman nakaupo diyan
43

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
5
hindi naman nilagay iyan diyan sa mga opisinang iyan kung hindi
qualified.
Again, how will that qualification be determined?
MR. LORENA.
Id like to inform because I was with the
Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, I was the attorney general.

Not all the 36,000 are permanent employees and therefore meet the
qualifications.
Many in the bloated bureaucracy were just hired on
temporary basis for lack of qualification. But the intent of the BBL is
really to put a stop into that hiring of contractuals, the hiring of
temporary position in order to put permanent personnel into the
bureaucracy.
Okay.
Lets keep the
discussion toiyong plantilla position.

What happens to those in plantilla positions?
MR. LORENA.
They will first be retained in the same because
the Civil Service provision is guaranteed under the BTA until such new
Civil Service Law is provided, the present Civil Service provisions with
respect to tenure and with respect to the rights and privileges of the
employees will be retained even during the transition.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Mr. Chairman.
44

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
6

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Yes, Senator Escudero.
Usec Lorena, under the lawDOLE is here,
Civil Service is herepag in-abolish po iyong opisina, wala ng security

of tenure iyong tao. Is that correct, sir?
MR. RONQUILLO.
Your Honor, we have a law, R.A. 6656,
which protects the security of tenure

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Even if it is abolished?
MR. RONQUILLO.
Yes, Your Honor.
Because even if it is
considered abolished but new positions comparable to the former ones

are created
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Then they will have to be rehired.
MR. RONQUILLO.
Yes, Your Honor.
Under the guidelines of R.A. 6656, if you are holding a

permanent appointment, you have a vested right to that position.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Sir, iyong coterminus, maliwanag ho iyon.
They serve at the pleasure and confidence, they can be changed.

Iyong contractual, maliwanag din ho iyon.
Now, iyong may security of tenure po, iyong permanent
employees and officials, will their right to security of tenure be
guaranteed under the BBL?
45

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
7
MR. LORENA.
Yes, sir, categorically. Because of 6656.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. LORENA.
Can we put that in the law?
Yes. In fact, even in the House, they would like
to ensure that that provisions will be guaranteed.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
So if we put that in the law, wala hong
problema.
MR. LORENA.
Yes, sir.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Hindi lang ho nalagay doon sa draft. So we
will put that in the law.

MR. LORENA.
Yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Second, out of the 30 plus thousand
employees in ARMM right now, ilan po iyong temporary? You said you
worked with ARMM.
MR. LORENA.
were
the
If my memory serves me right, about 23,000
permanent.
But
over and
above
that
are
already
temporary
SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. LORENA.
So more than two-thirds are temporary?
Yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
How will the BBL address that?
If you
merely quoted the provision in the current ARMM Law, how will now
46

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
8
the BBL address that situation if you are merely citing an old provision
in the ARMM?
MR. LORENA.
Well, there is really an intent to give certain
packages for those that will be displaced because of the

SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. LORENA.
But thats not in the bill.
In fact, this will be part, in the discussion, in the
forum, the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao which is being

worked now on a transition is being considered.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
But thats not in the bill and we can also
insert therefore provisions to make sure that what happened in ARMM

na puro contractual will not happen here dahil iyon naman ho iyong
objective, hindi po ba?
MR. LORENA.
Yes.
In fact, that should be the best way to
move forward, Mr. Chairman, because we have to put the provision

there.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
And, lastly, I agree with the comments. I
would like to place on record my agreement to the comments of

Chairman Marcos na hindi na nga ho natin sinama sa usapan iyong
ibang grupo. Karamihan ho ng nakaupo diyan malamang tao ng MNLF,
hindi ba? I mean, its logical to assume.
47

CODES
CMNERY
VI-1
June 2, 2015
11:29 a.m.
9
So kung papalitan niyo naman sila ng mga taga-MI, panibagong

gulo na naman, panibagong mae-exclude na naman.
So then the
rationale and logic be, for it to be inclusive/cmn
48

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
1
SEN. ESCUDERO.
for it to be inclusive once its being
implemented, since it was exclusionary during the negotiation period

and youve gone at length to explain to us na negotiation is
complicated, etcetera, etcetera. Fine. But, also, we would be inserting
provisions that will make it inclusive, not exclusive to the MILF alone.
Because the key behind this law succeeding, perhaps, is the ability of
other groups, other than MILF, to actually hold positions of power
within the BBL that they can have a sphere of influence and be part of
nation building in that part of the country. You would agree, of course.
MR. LORENA.
We agree fully with you, Mr. Chairman, and
Senator Escudero, precisely because the crafting of a law would have

to be a consensus not only within the stakeholders, so we agree that
this bill should be for inclusive. In fact that should be the concept of
the crafting of this bill, to make it more inclusive. While admittedly, in
the negotiation that was just a party between like the MNLF then the
MILF but in the crafting of the law it should ensure that all the people
would benefit out of this law.
We agree with you.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
And also try to understand, sir, that I also
accept and admit the fact that you had to negotiate, agree to certain
49

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
2
terms and conditions, but insofar as the Senate and Congress is

concerned, we will most likely do away with the political statements
and accommodations designed to perhaps, appease, make it look more
inviting, because these words, phrases, and paragraphs belong to
speeches you will deliver, but notI mean, I hope you understand, not
in the proposed bill.
Because it will have legal implications and not
mere political statements, and we are heading towards that direction,

if I get the Chairman correctly given his previous pronouncements. I
hope you would go back to your counterparts, to the MILF, to make
them understand as well these things that we have to do, and that you
had to do it at that level and stage, but we have to do this also at this
stage to make it work.
Well, okay.
So just to
clarify, it is agreed that we should provide guarantees that the offices

that are abolished and then reorganized in similar fashion will then
give priority to those who had occupied those positions before. This is
with the civil servants that we are talking about. What is not clear to
me is what exactly do we do with those whose offices have been
abolished?
They no longer have positions to occupy within the
50

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
3
Bangsamoro, but they still have guarantees that were provided them
under the Civil Service Code.
MR. LORENA.
Well, from our experience when we shift from
Republic Act 6734 to 9054, there were packages offered to those first
who wants to
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Packages offered by whom?
MR. LORENA.
To the employees.
Retirement packages and
other benefits. That was moving forward. That was our experience in
the past, since the question was raised.
Secondly, they can also be accommodated one way in many
other activities within the new Bangsamoro governance, precisely that
is why there is a work for normalization.
But, again, with the
guarantee as to tenure, with guarantee as to seniority and, of course,

we go back to pay grade. That is really a critical issue.
MR. LORENA. In fact, if we go by the
Because hindi puwedeng
gawin natin iyong labag sa Civil Service Code, so we have to follow

that. But how do we do that when their offices have been abolished?
51

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
4
MR. LORENA.
By just incorporating the provision of Republic
Act 6556, which guarantees the regular employees as to privileges and

seniority. Its there in the law.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So what you are saying is
that we will leave it up to the Civil Service to find them other positions
that are commensurate with their seniority and tenure?
MR. LORENA. Yeah. In fact, the provision of 6656 was really
put in place in order to assure that in case of abolition of offices, civil
servants who have occupied permanent positions and classified
seniority can be protected.
That is enshrined in the law that will
protect our civil servants.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, thats within the BBL?
MR. LORENA. That can be provided in order to make it more
clear, as we are already looking towards clarity of the law.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So subject to 6656, and within the BBL. Kasi
po I was informed na
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Tinanong na sila.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Opona as we speak, kino-compute na nga
daw ng OPAPP o ng kung sinuman iyong retirement packages ng mga
52

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
5
empleyado roon. But, again, it should be inclusive. In fact, inclusive

na siya, may check and balance pa.
Kasi hindi naman sila parte ng
MILF, malay nyo magsalita pag tingin nila mali. I mean, it would be a
good way of having some systems of checks and balances within the
BBL that we will be forming.
MR. LORENA. We agree. In fact, the preparation of packages
is really to give opportunity to those who also want to shift to the
private sector from the government because in the Autonomous
Region in Muslim Mindanao, there are also people who are looking
forward that in the event of the transformation in the new Bangsamoro
Transition Authority, people can work outside the government.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think people who want to
leave the service and enter into the private sector, that is very clear as
to what are the benefits that they will enjoy, again, under the Civil
Service Code. But it is those who want to remain in the bureaucracy
that we are concerned about.
So, Atty. Ronquillo, you had something to add.
MR. RONQUILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
I think with respect to separation of employees who are affected
by reorganization, the only solution is to explicitly state in the law that
53

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
6
it should be covered by the guidelines under R.A. 6656. So those who

cannot really be accommodated will really have to be separated but
with separation pay, Your Honor, under that law.
Now, for those holding permanent and whose appointments are
retained or can be given a comparable position, then he should be
given that position because thats under R.A. 6656.
So if only we
explicitly mention 6656 in the law, then well have no more problem
with that, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Well, in that case,
thats another thing that we can add as an amendment to the draft
BBL, that it will be consistent with R.A. 6656 and, of course, the
guarantees that are also being made here today that those who wish
to remain within the bureaucracy will be given a priority within the BBL
when the reorganization occurs.
Now for those who want to leave the service, again, that is a
very clear situation and the CSC has a very clear mechanism for
dealing with that.
Yes, Attorney.
MR. RONQUILLO.
I just like to reiterate our suggestion with
respect to the creation of the Bangsamoro Civil Service Office, that for
54

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
7
it not to run afoul with the Constitution. I think a phrase saying that it
is under the control and supervision of the Civil Service Commission
central, I think, will be acceptable already.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Just for the information of
everyone, what we are tending to in the Committee, and for that
matter, the whole House of the Senate, is that we would like to make
all of these constitutional bodies within Bangsamoro akin to all other
constitutional bodies.
Every province has a Comelec, every province
has a COA, every province hasevery cityso well do the same. That
way, its very clear. Again the structure of the CSC will not change.
The functions will not change. Again, the other constitutional bodies.
I think, for me, this is the simplest way of remedying the arguments
saying that what we are doing is constitutionally questionable. Its not
final because we have not really gone into conference to discuss these
things, but the tendency, Im saying, is to do that.
So, Atty. Ronquillo, we will take that into consideration.
So well move on to the DepEd.
Usec Alberto Muyot is here.
They have no position paper but we would like to hear from the Usec
as to
55

CODES
CBGealan
VII-1
June 2, 2015
11:39 a.m.
8
MR. MUYOT.
Good morning, Your HonorsMr. Chairman,
Senator Escudero.
The Department of Education supports the passage of the
Bangsamoro Basic Law and takes note of the provisions which are in
accord with the Constitution. But the provisions in the draft BBL are
actually very general, Your Honors.
But without having to be as
detailed as that in the ARMM Law which provides for very extensive
provisions on education, Your Honors, please allow us to propose a
small amendment or refinement that will provide
the national
standards especially for curriculum/cbg
56

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
1
MR. MUYOT.
especially for curriculum for the hiring of
teachers, for teachers education, etcetera, should also be followed in

the Bangsamoro.
This is in the concept of non-diminution of
standards, Your Honor. And we will submit the proposed amendment

or refinement in the next couple of days, Your Honor.
Well, because there is
language in the draft BBL that the curriculum also will bethe other
question that came up during one of the hearings is: Who will
administer the schools? Which leads down to the question of curricula
and the standards for the teachers.
MR. MUYOT.
Your Honor, at present, there is an ARMM
department of education led by a regional secretary of education under

which there are school divisions which is similar to the present setup of
the national department of education.
So the setup, we feel, should be basically the same.
The
standards for the hiring of teachers will be the same;
the
remuneration for teachers will also be the same and the curriculum,
the core curriculum will be the same. But, of course, without prejudice
to the localization and to the addition of other culturally appropriate
courses, Your Honor.
57

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
2
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, on DepEd.

Im just curious, Usec Muyot. Ngayon po may DepEd secretary
ang ARMM, hindi po ba?
MR. MUYOT. Thats correct, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. May DepEd regional director din po kayo sa
ARMM?
MR. MUYOT.
No, Your Honor.
national, regional director for ARMM.
We do not have a DepEd

The ARMM DepEd secretary
serves the same functions as the DepEd regional director, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So siya na iyong parang regional director
niyo roon?
MR. MUYOT. Thats correct, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Does the secretary of DepEd have control
and supervision over the secretary of Education in the ARMM right

now?
MR. MUYOT. Not as to the power to appoint, Your Honor. But
as to technical supervision, we do have technical supervision. We also
download funds to the DepEd ARMM, Your Honor.
And the DepEd
ARMM secretary is also part of our national management committee,

Your Honor.
58

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
3
SEN. ESCUDERO. So the DepEd secretary can only suggest to

his counterpart, quote and unquote, in the ARMM or BBL.
Is that correct?
MR. MUYOT.
Well, its more than a suggestion, Your Honor.
What has happened is that the same curriculum in the DepEd national
is followed in the ARMM. The same standards for hiring of teachers is
also followed.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
But if they decide, if the
BBL parliament
decides to change itand they can do it, right? Under the proposed
bill, they can do it.
MR. MUYOT.
Well, under the proposed bill, Your Honor, the
power seems to be plenary.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Precisely.
MR. MUYOT. And it is for this reason that we are going to ask
that we be allowed to suggest a refinement to ensure that the
standards which are being followed at the national level are also made
applicable to the Bangsamoro, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So in case of conflict, sir, between an
educational policy of that ARMM/BBL secretary and the DepEd

secretary at the level of the central government, an amplification is
59

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
4
necessary to say that mananaig po iyong sa national?

MR. MUYOT. As to standards, Your Honor, I think that will be
necessary.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
As to standards, meaning, qualification of
teachers and curriculum.

MR. MUYOT. Yes, Your Honor, among other things.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So hindi po nila puwedeng sabihing, Walang
K to 12 dito.
MR. MUYOT. Hindi po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. But that needs to be specified and clarified in
the law.
MR. MUYOT. Yes, Your Honor. And thats why we are going to
propose an amendment.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Next, sir.
Under the current ARMM and presumably also under BBL,
patuloy na kayo ang magbabayad ng suweldo ng teacher?
MR. MUYOT. Well, under the current law, Your Honor, for the
ARMM, we download funds.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Ano po?
MR. MUYOT. We download funds to theBut in the BBL
60

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
5
SEN. ESCUDERO. No. Saan galing po iyong budget?

MR. MUYOT. National, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So galing po at kargado sa budget ng DepEd.
MR. MUYOT. National.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Its not in the ARMM budget.
MR. MUYOT. No.
Usec, iyong sa GAA, nasa
loob ng DepEd iyong pambayad ng suweldo ng mga guro sa ARMM sa

ngayon.
MR. BACANI. Sir, mag-clarify lang po.
Yes, sir.
MR. BACANI. Iyong budget ng ARMM today, 24.3 billion, 2015.

Eight billion of that is education; one billion of that is DOH.
Na-
devolve na kasi iyon kaya compared to the other regions, the other
regions, all of their budget for teachers is in the national. Sa ARMM,
its already in the budget of the ARMM as approved in the General
Appropriations Act.
Eight billion of the 24.3 is for the education and about one billion
is for health, Your Honor.
But just to be clear.
The
61

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
6
eight billion, kapag tiningnan niyo iyong GAA, its under the ARMM
budget, not in the DepEd budget.
MR. BACANI. Opo, nasa ARMM budget. When you look at the
details of the 24.3, there are specific line items there detailing the
expenditures for the eight billion education budget po, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, again.
Iyong suweldo po ba ng teachers nandoon sa eight billion?
MR. BACANI. Opo. Most of the eight billion is really for salaries,
Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir.
Iyong lahat ba ng teachers sa ARMM ngayon ang suweldo nila ay
galing doon sa eight billion na part nuong 24 billion na pondo ng
ARMM?
MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Its not being downloaded? You said a while
ago, Usec Muyot, it was being downloaded to them.
MR. MUYOT. Well, in that sense, Your Honor, it has now been
changed in the GAA.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, iba iyong download
MR. MUYOT. It was before. But now, its been changed, Your
62

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
7
Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So youre talking in 2015?
MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor, 2015. And even before, it was
already like that, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. School buildings?
MR. MUYOT. Well, in the case of school buildings, Your Honor,
its still part of the DepEd national.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So does the ARMM right nowhave they
constructed a single school building other than the DepEd budget or is

it the national government that constructs school buildings, as with
most local government units naman?
MR. LORENA.
Now, the ARMM Department of Education is also
constructing school buildings.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Independently of the DepEd school building
program?
MR. LORENA. Yes, additional.
Id just like to butt in and
acknowledge for the record the arrival of our President Pro Tempore,
Senator Ralph Recto.
SEN. ESCUDERO. We will accept that, Usec Bacani, insofar as
63

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
8
the 2015 budget is concerned. So all the benefits of the teachers, not
only their salaries, kargado na sa ARMM, wala na sa pondo ng DepEd.
So for salaries and wages and other benefits of teachers
assigned in the ARMM area, hindi na kargado sa budget ng DepEd.
MR. LORENA. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
another point.
Wed just like to raise
We were talking about this civil service. Most of the
civil servants in ARMM are teachers. I think 30,000 of the 36,000 are
teachers.
MR. MUYOT. Yes, the bulk of them are teachers.
Do you have any views on
that particular situation?

MR. MUYOT.
Well, Your Honor, the teachers tenures are
protected under the Magna Carta of Public School Teachers. So their

tenures will not be affected.
Actually, I dont see
anything in the draft BBL that will change any of that situation. So I
think it is the abolishing of the government offices. Kasi hindi naman
ganoon ang gagawin sa eskuwela, hindi naman yata papalitan.
64

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
9
Yes, Atty. Macabangkit Lanto, please.

MR. LANTO.
Yes.
Will the Chair allow some little thoughts
about that issue, Your Honor?

On the DepEd?
MR. LANTO. On the service of this

Okay, Im sorry.
Hindi
kita nakita. Yes, please. Go ahead.

MR. LANTO. Because I once served as a member of Congress,
Ninth Congress, Your Honor.
If you remember right, before the
ARMM, there was the autonomous government in Central Mindanao

which was created during the administration of the late President
Marcos. And we have the same problem, Your Honor, because there
were complaints lodged by the civil servants in the autonomous
government in the Central Mindanao about their position being
abolished or their being replaced by the new ARMM government.
And so it was provided in the transitory provision of the ARMM
that these civil servants will be protected and that those whose
position will be abolished and who were eligible, Your Honor, the
names were submitted to the Civil Service to be included in the roster
of Civil Service eligibles so that if there are vacancies/jbc
65

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-1
June 2, 2015
11:49 a.m.
10
66

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
1
MR. LANTO. if there are vacancies in the new ARMM, they will
be given priority, Your Honor, and their salary will not be reduced and
their position will not be reduced. Perhaps we can provide that in the
draft.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. You are proposing a
similar mechanism.
MR. LORENA. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think that would answer
many of the questions that we are facing now.
Thank you, Atty. Mac.
Again, moving forward, can we hear from the CHED who have
given us a position paper?
Dr. Semana, will you be the one to present it? Please proceed.
MS. SEMANA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
What I will be presenting to this body are the commitments of
the Commission on Higher Education, as discussed by the management
committee and the Commission En Banc.
Particularly, the CHED
support in principle to BBL higher education provisions: the Article IV,

general principles and policies, Section 1, on self-governance; also, the
Article V, Section 4, other exclusive power, which includes the
representation of the Bangsamoro government representative to the
67

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
2
board of the state universities and colleges; and Article IX on basic

rights, right to education; Section 13, integrated system of quality
education; and Section 14, the tribal university system.
However, the Commission on Higher Education is open for
discussion, in particular, to the Bangsamoro government the following:
the nature, mandate and functions of the Bangsamoro government
body for higher education; its bureaucracy oversight of private
schools; the student financial assistance programs; quality assurance,
as compared to what the DepEd already mentioned; and then the
development planning and projects; also, the governance of the public
higher education institutions on the operations of the existing charters;
the status of the Mindanao State University and its implication on
CHED amalgamation policy; and the Bangsamoro government higher
education development planning, including ODA mobilization and
utilization.
The Commission on Higher Education had been participating to
the consultations, meetings headed by the OPAPP. And we discussed
some
possible
partnerships
with
the
Bangsamoro
government
particularly on the provision of technical assistance for quality

assurance and global competitiveness of the Filipino human resources,
specialized national university under amalgamation program and the
68

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
3
technical assistance to the Bangsamoro Ministry of Education and its

higher education body.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, Mr. Chairman, just a simple question.
What is the position of the CHED with respect to the additional
representation of the Bangsamoro government in the SUCs?
MS. SEMANA.
Based on the discussion of the management
committee, we are open to that, Senator.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes or no? Are you in favor of it or are you
not? Iba iyong open. Meaning, bukas kayo doon.
MS. SEMANA. Yes.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Iba iyon sa Sang-ayon kami.
MS. SEMANA.
We are supportive and we are agreeing to the
representation of the BG.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Correct me if Im wrong. Im not objecting
to it.
But most of the boards, ang bilang niyan is odd to avoid a
deadlock.
Hindi ba odd number iyan?
So if you will add one more,
magiging even bigla iyan.

MS. SEMANA. Yes, sir.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So magdadagdag tayo ng isa pa?
69

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
4
MS. SEMANA. That is why, sir, we are open to the discussion.

We
do
understand
that
we
are
still
discussing
this
with
the
Bangsamoro government.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maam, we are already drafting the law. We
cannot simply be open to it.
My question is, what is the solution?
Kung magiging even bigla iyan at hindi na odd, therefore, a tie is very
possible. What is your solution to make it odd again? Magdadagdag
ka ba ng dalawa or magbabawas ka ng isa? I mean, we have to put it
here. Sorry. Its a practical problem that we have to face.
MS. SEMANA. Yes. Thank you so much for that, Senator Chiz.
What we will be doing is, we will discuss it with the Commission
because we still have to submit.
But, nonetheless, we will consider
that point that we still have to consider. At this point in time, I cannot
give a specific answer whether we will reduce the number or add.
SEN. ESCUDERO. When can we have it, maam?
MS. SEMANA. As soon as possible, Mr. Chair.
Well, maybe to guide the
Committee as we are writing this, what are the preponderant issues

that you have to deal with when discussing whether you will remove
onebabawasan ng isa o dadagdagan ng dalawa?
70

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
5
MS. SEMANA.
Iyon pong membership ng board is actually
governed by the qualification.
So it is also being discussed by the
board themselves. So at this point in time, I believe that this is still

the subject of discussion of the entire commission.
Clearly, again, that is
another point in the draft BBL that needs to be clarified, that has not
been thoroughly discussed and the issues resolved. Anyway, if that is
the entirety of the CHEDs position on the BBL.
MR. LORENA. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, Usec Lorena.
MR. LORENA.
I think, presently the Autonomous Region in
Muslim Mindanao is already represented in many of the boards

pursuant to Section 8 of Article XIII of Republic Act 9054. So they are
already in the board. This is only a carryover to the new Bangsamoro
Basic Law. In fact, if may read the provision? The provision said, The
provisions of existing laws to the contrary notwithstanding, the
regional government shall be represented in the board of state
universities and colleges in the region by the chair of the Committee
on Education, Culture and Sports of the regional assembly either as cochair or co-vice chair. This provision has already been implemented
in many of the boards of the education.
71

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
6
But Senator Escudero
raises a purely practical matter in terms of the number. Of course, as

we all know, an odd number is preferred so that when there comes to
a time to vote, there is a clear consensus.
MR. LORENA.
Based on the existing SUCs board, I think the
autonomous region is already represented.
And, therefore, they will
be factored in the computation of the nine.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, I dont think so because when
the law was passed creating the SUCs, odd iyon.
Whether ini-
implement nila iyan o hindi, CHED would know. That means they are
now on even number. Meaning, kahit ini-implement po iyan ngayon
ibig sabihin, ngayon even number siya. Again, Im not against it. You
should have representation.
But we have to address that specific
problem. You have to understand when the Supreme Court decided on

the representation of Congress in the JBC, that was one of the more
important considerations that they took into account.
That with the
two members of Congress representing both the Senate and the

House, the JBC now had an even number which, according to the
Supreme Court, should be frowned upon because there will always be
and is always prone to a deadlock. The same is true by analogy here.
That still has to be addressed through the bill even if it is actually
72

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
7
being implemented on. That means you have an even number in the
SUCs that is being implemented as we speak.
MR. LORENA.
I think I agree with the senator.
But I think
presently in the Mindanao State University Board, there is already a

representative of the ARMM and the number is already odd, not even.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Can we check with Doctor--?
How did we get to that
point where it is now odd? So we can institutionalize it already in the

law.
MR. LORENA.
because
the
ARMM
We can check already with the present board

is
already
represented
there.
Since
the
Bangsamoro government will be the successor in the interest of the

ARMM, the representation of the ARMM can now be the representation
of the Bangsamoro.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Mr. Chairman, can we hear from Dr.
Semana?
Maam?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, please.
Dr. Semana, how did we get to this point where apparently what
has happened is that we have gotten an odd numbered membership in
the board of regents?
73

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-2
June 2, 2015
11:59 a.m.
8
MS. SEMANA. I would agree to the point presented by Senator

Chiz that at present we have odd number. And adding additional from
BG will make it as even.
And right now, from the undersecretary of OPAPP, sir, hindi po
lahat represented.
So what we can do right now, Mr. Chair, is we can run through
on the membership of the board/alicc
74

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
1
MS. SEMANA.
...membership of the board, and then that will
be our assignment which we promised to deliver the soonest possible

time.
SEN. ESCUDERO. So on MSU, meaning, kaya sila siyam, may
kulang pa? Would you know?
MS. SEMANA.
Wala naman pong kulang, sir.
But I do
understand that for every board represented po sila ng kanilang

regional development
council. Mayroon pong membership from the
council, the community.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So before the ARMM Law was passed, it was
an even number in the MSU? That could not have been the case.
MS. SEMANA. We have to check, sir, specifically.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Please get back to us, maam.
Thank you.
Thank you, Usec.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thank you.
Yes, we will be awaiting that information.
The next position that we will hear is from the health sector,
primarily from Usec Nemesio Gako of the Department of Health.
Dr. Gako, if you would like to
MR. GAKO. Yes.
Good afternoon, Honorable Chair...
75

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
2
Dont worry, pakakainin
namin kayo.
MR. GAKO. ...and Honorable Members of the Senate, Senator
Recto and Senator Escudero.
The Department of Health actually submitted a position paper,
and this was based on House Bill No. 4994, but we would be updating
this
later on to respond to the Senate version.
We submitted this
because, essentially, these are our concerns only, almost similar

concerns.
So the Department of Health supports the proposed Bangsamoro
Basic Law and respectfully recommends that in matters of health, all
provisions related to it, concurrent powers with cooperation rather than
exclusive powers, be considered. As of now kasi only the quarantine is
under concurrent powers.
But even if health is put under exclusive
powers, if it would mean that what is being practiced now is to be

continued, then we do not have any problem to the proposed law.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I think what youre saying
is that if it is the same as the devolved powers in the healthcare, that
devolved powers to the local governments, then you dont have a
problem with that.
MR. GAKO. Yes.
76

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
3
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). But the language does say

exclusive.
There is a difference.
Dahil lahat naman ng probinsya
mayroon pang DOH-run na ospital, the tertiaryespecially the tertiary

level.
So what is the position of the DOH when it comes to tertiary
corporatized hospitals that are within the Bangsamoro?
MR. GAKO. The DOH would like to continue supporting them.
And then the hospitals that would be below that category will be
devolved to the
Below what category,
below tertiary?
MR. GAKO. The third level, tertiary.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So primary and secondary.
MR. GAKO. Primary and secondary will be devolved to
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Pati na iyong mga RHU?
MR. GAKO. Yes.
All the waytertiary lang
ang DOH.
MR. GAKO. Tertiary hospitals.
Again, that is similarIn
fact, that is already the situation now.
77

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
4
MR. GAKO.
That is the situation, Your Honor.
And we would
like to say that we will continue to consider ARMM as a big local

government unit.
Yes.
But that is not
consistent with the language of exclusiveIn the Bangsamoro Basic

Law, the powers over the healthcare system is exclusive to the
Bangsamoro government.
So that would make it different from an
ordinary devolution to a local government, as we have now with the

other local governments.
MR. GAKO. Yes, Your Honor. That is why we are proposing that
instead of being exclusive, it will be placed into the concurrent powers.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So essentially, what we will
do is, again, balik tayo. We will go back to the Local Government Code
and we will make it as similar to the Local Government Code as we can
so that there is again consistency in the administration of the
healthcare system. Is that what youre saying?
MR. GAKO. Thats correct, Your Honor.
So please proceed,
yes. There are other elements to your position paper.

MR. GAKO.
We would just like to reiterate that while the
Department of Health formulate its national health policies, the

Bangsamoro shall implement, according to the... policies in a manner
78

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
5
that respects their culture and religion, practices and beliefs. This is
based on the premise that DOH is a national policy-making body for
health issues and on the principle of one country, one nation.
These recommendations are based on the intention to provide
continuity of healthcare, quality and effective use of resources and
maintenance of health standards and protocol because diseases
recognize no boundaries.
Thank you very much, Honorable Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The Department of Health
exercises, to an extent, even to the local provincial hospitals, be they
secondary, even down to the, as I said, even the RHUs.
MR. GAKO. Yes, sir.
As it is conceived in the
Bangsamoro Basic Law, that will no longer be the case.

Is the DOH agreeable to this or supportive of this different
system?
MR. GAKO.
As I have said, Your Honor, we will consider the
Bangsamoro area as one big local government units wherein we

extend support in terms of providing guidelines and standards. We will
even provide support in terms of health facilities in our health facility
enhancement program.
We provide also supplies and vaccines to
these areas.
79

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
6
So reading your position
paper, it would seem that you are essentially proposing again in your
second to the last paragraph that it is considered just as a regional
government with the same kind of relationship that the DOH now has
with a province, for example, or a city, although it is a regional
MR. GAKO. Yes, Your Honor.
Because you raised some
points that are outside of just the pure healthcare system, which is the
protocols
and
standards
recommended
by
WHO,
hazardous
substances, regulation and control and monitoring of hazardous

substances, the manufacture also of foods, drinks, drugs and tobacco.
MR. GAKO. These are under the Food and Drug Administration.
under the DOH.
Yes, thats right, which is
So you are suggesting that instead of exclusive
powers, that these powers and functions continue to reside with the
DOH.
MR. GAKO. Yes, Your Honor.
And also, I think the first
point that is made here is easily understood because it is the control

and
prevention
of
all
diseases,
including
communicable,
non-
communicable, endemic, epidemic and emerging diseases which will

require no boundaries because diseases do not recognize those.
80

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
7
So, very well. That is clear enough.

Once again, I think the tendency of what we are hearing from
you is that we again make it more in line with what we are already
doing with the regular local governments.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, if we are done with the DOH,
can I just ask for a minor administrative matter from CHED, DepEd,
DOLE, DOH and also
Wala po iyong seatmate ninyo, Mr. Catibayan?
And also our
DMB representative.
Sir, can you give us individually and collectively from DBM kung
magkano
iyong
budget
na
patuloy
ninyong
ibibigay
sa
BBL
notwithstanding the creation of the BBL? As we clarified kanina, hindi

ba, iyong sweldo integrated na, pero iyong school building, you will
continue to spend for it?
Now, what other items in your budget will you continue to
appropriate for the BBL/ARMM area after the approval of this bill so
that we can compute the total monies that will be going to the BBL
area?
The House of Representatives came up with an amount of 37
billion. Apparently, hindi nila sinama iyong perang patuloy na ibibigay
81

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-2
June 2, 2015
12:09 p.m.
8
ng agencies notwithstanding the creation of the BBL, as you have

enunciated, Dr. Gako. Would that be correct?
The same is true, Usec Muyot, hindi po ba tuloy pa rin?
Now, I raised this issue, Secretary Bacani, Usec Lorena, because
under your proposed bill, all revenues will now be for the account of
the BBL, internal revenue. In fact, the BBL government can even raise
its own revenue, hindi po ba? For the first 10... /jmb
82

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
1
SEN. ESCUDERO. For the first 10 years, di ba may sharing

dapat?
Pero for the first 10 years, kanila muna lahat.
So, in other
words, walang share ang BBL sa total revenues ng gobyerno

emanating from the proposed BBL area.
And yet on top of that,
government will continue to provide funds to the BBL area.
Thats
where we are coming from.

Kaya hindi po ako sumasang-ayon, halimbawa, sa numerong
binigay ng Kamara na hanggang doon lang. Kinompyut (compute) lang
ho nila iyong nandito. Pero on top of that, mayroong patuloy namang
ibibigay ang gobyerno. Hindi ko sinasabing mali iyon. Ang sinasabi ko
lang, dapat alam natin kung magkano ba talaga iyong halaga ng BBL
na pinapasa natin. In fact, dahil nga po all income, internal revenue
will be for the account of BBL, hiwalay pa nga iyong IRA, iyong IRA po
galing sa income.
So, in our computation, not that we will remove the IRA, no, but
we want an accurate accounting and auditing, magkano ba iyong
ginagastos ng national government for this proposed BBL area on top
of what you simply enumerated here? Because there are givens, like
the national government agency budget for BBL, as well as the IRA in
LGUs under BBL.
Sir.
83

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
2
MR. BACANI. We agree po iyong in terms of the total listing of

what government revenues go to the BBL. The only thing wed like to
note is, even without the BBL, karamihan doon tuloy din.
Iyong
kagaya nung national government agency expenditures in the ARMM,

tuloy pa rin po iyan; iyong IRA po even without the BBL, tuloy din po
iyan; iyon pong budget ng ARMM sa General Appropriations Act, tuloy
din po iyan mapapalitan nga lang ng block grant. Pareho pong okay.
Maganda mayroon tayong total listing at saka kung ano iyong
incremental at saka kung ano iyong dati.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Exactly, sir, para hindi ho iba-iba ang fig.
Kasi iyong una hong binigay na figure ng OPAPP sa aminhindi po

kayo, Usec10 billion lang yata. Hindi naman ho yata tama at totoo
iyon.
MR. BACANI.
Siguro po iyong binigay lang doon iyong
incremental, kagaya po nung special development fund, seven billion

for the first year and 10 billion for the next five years or 17 billion, at
saka
one
billion
Bangsamoro
Transition
Fund.
Iyon
po
ang
incremental. At saka may mga 5 percent increase po from 70 to 75,

thats incremental.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Ano po iyong provision sa block grant, sir?
Magkano pong amount ang nilagay doon?
84

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
3
MR. BACANI. We estimate po 27 billion.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
No.
Hindi naman po nakalagay ang 27
billion. Magkano po iyong amount na nakalagay sa program?

MR. BACANI.
Four percent po of the 60 percent of the net
internal revenue collections three years before.

SEN. ESCUDERO. In no case to go below the current budget.
MR. BACANI. Yes po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Which is at 24
MR. BACANI. Twenty-four point three billion po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Billion, di po ba?
Now, maganda nga ho ma-compute magkano ba talaga.
tama ho kayo, I will give you that, sir.
At
Magkano iyong increment?
Para lang klaro kung magkano in peso value iyong gagastusin ng

gobyerno for ARMM, with the understanding, sir, na kailangan naman
talaga ng pondo ng ARMM. But we also have to make sure na iyong
pondong dadalhin diyan magagastos sa tama.
Dahil sa mahabang
panahon sa laki ng perang binuhos ng gobyerno diyan hindi ho

nagastos sa tama at napunta sa armas, sa security, sa body guard na
tuwing nagpupunta iyong dating ARMM governor sa Maynila alam
naman ho natin lahat iyan dalawang floor ng hotel ang ino-occupy and
everybody is looking the other way.
Halos iyong buong eroplano
85

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
4
okupado nila. And that is all being spent for by taxpayers money. So,
we would want to make sure this time around that that will not
happen.
Thank you, sir.
And I would like to segue, Mr. Chairman. Senator Recto and I will
just follow up on his question with respect to the income and the
taxing powers of both the BBL, the LGU, as well as of the national
government.
Just as an addition.
Actually, Senator Escudero says okay na iyong incremental.
I would
actually prefer a more detailed disaggregatedjust to see exactly

where the adjustments are going to be made here as much detailed as
possible is required.
SEN. RECTO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, Senator Recto.
SEN. RECTO. Yes, thank you.
Just to follow up on some of the points raised by Senator
Escudero, if I may, Mr. Chairman?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Please go ahead.
SEN. RECTO. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
86

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
5
Nabanggit
kanina
ni
Senator
Escudero
na
dito
sa
BBL
napakarami nating kapangyarihan at taxing powers ang ibibigay dito

sa Bangsamoro Region, dagdag ito doon sa ARMM, tama po ba iyon?
MR. BACANI. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
Lumalabas din dito that the Bangsamoro under this BBL will not
contribute anything to the national government but in effect, we
receive a lot of subsidy from the national government, is that correct?
MR. BACANI.
Yes po, unless that becomesiyong sa wealth
sharing if it happens at some point in time where there is exploration

development and utilization of some natural resources which exist
there, which to date, wala pa po.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
So, having said that, ito iyong malaking problema na tinatanong
sa akin ng maraming mga kababayan natin. Lahat ng Pilipino labas sa
ARMM nagko-contribute ng taxes sa national government para saan?
For certain things, halimbawa, foreign affairs para sa buong Pilipinas;
Central Bank, halimbawa; an AFP, a PNP for peace and order, law and
order, so on and so forth.
Dito sa draft BBL na ito, walang iko-
contribute ang Bangsamoro, tama po ba iyon, former Secretary Senen

Bacani?
87

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
6
MR. BACANI. Tama po iyon. In fact, thats what the situation

is today.
SEN. RECTO. No. Today, they are contributing by paying taxes
to the central government sa income taxes. Under the BBL, they will
retain their income. And, therefore, they will not contribute anything
to the national government, kapalit pa niyan, dadagdagan natin iyong
subsidy na galing sa bawat Juan dela Cruz sa Bangsamoro.
Ngayon, tanong.
Hindi ba fair lamang, kung saka-sakali na
ganoon ang sistema na dapat magkaroon tayo ng national plebiscite

tungkol dito? Bakit doon lang natin tatanungin? Lahat ng Pilipino sabit
dito sa pagbabayad ng buwis at iyong buwis nila mapupunta doon.
Bakit hindi national plebiscite? Bakit doon lang sa region ng ARMM?
MR. BACANI. Iyon pong puwedeng isagot diyan iyong nangyari
na in the past.
Its the same situation as in the past, at saka
nakalagay din sa Constitution iyong kailangan lang mag-plebiscite

doon sa areas directly affected.
SEN. RECTO. In the past, former Secretary Bacani, they were
still contributing to the national government, iyong income taxes
pumupunta sa national government. Kahit maliit mas malaki ang
subsidy ng central sa kanila, pero ngayon dito sa BBL, walang ikocontribute, dadagdagan pa ng subsidy.
Kaya maraming nababahala
88

CODES
Caturla
III-2
June 2, 2015
12:19 p.m.
7
din dito.
At siyempre maraming usap-usapan, pinagkakatiwalaan ba
ang MILF among others? Iyon ang kaibahan nito sa ARMM. Well, thats
something that you can think about.
Ang susunod na tanong ko naman, ano ba iyong bagong
kapangyarihan pagdating sa pagbubuwis ang ibinibigay natin dito sa
Bangsamoro Region? What are the new powers and functions that we
are giving them compared to what they have in the ARMM today?
MR. BACANI.
Ano po iyon iyong additional to Republic Act
9054. In this proposed law, were devolving four taxes, documentary

stamp tax
SEN. RECTO. Na kinokolekta ng national government ngayon?
MR. BACANI. Opo. Iyong donors tax, estate tax at saka capital
gains tax. The total of that presently is about 30 million po.
SEN. RECTO. Magkano iyon?
MR. BACANI. Thirty million.
SEN. RECTO. So, maliit.
MR. BACANI. Mayroong condition, as long as all of the taxable
elements are within the Bangsamoro.
Thats the main controlling
factor, Your Honor.

SEN. RECTO.
So, again, dagdag sa ARMM, ito ang binibigay
natincpc
89

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
1
SEN. RECTO.
ito ang binibigay natin.
collected by the BIR, right?
And these taxes are
And were saying now that the BIR will
collect it but give it to them as well.

MR. BACANI. Hindi po. Nakalagay doon sa proposed
SEN. RECTO.
Pero eventually, magkakaroon din sila ng sarili
nilang BIR. Tama po ba iyon? So, hindi lang ito sariling PNP, sariling
COA, may sariling BIR din.
MR. BACANI. For all local taxes po that they can impose, thats
the idea of the
SEN. RECTO.
What are the other local taxes that they can
impose aside from these four?

MR. BACANI.
Iyon pong nakalista diyan sa proposed law.
Although some of those are fees and charges, nakalista po sa proposed

law iyan in terms of the detailed
SEN. RECTO. No. Under ARMM, what taxes does ARMM collect
today and what is the difference? Naintindihan ko na itong apat dito.
Maliwanag iyon.
MR. BACANI. Sa tingin ko, iyon ang deperensya. All of those
SEN. RECTO. I understand. Again, my question is, what does
ARMM collect today?
The next will be, how do they collect them?
What is the relationship of ARMM and the local governments and
90

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
2
Bangsamoro and the local governments? Because, Secretary, we are

defining here not only the relationship of the central government and
the Bangsamoro region but the Bangsamoro region and the local
governments within the Bangsamoro region.
MR. BACANI. In the existing law, basically theres a listing of
the extent of tax powers of ARMM.
SEN. RECTO. Katulad ngCan you read it, please?
MR. BACANI. Dito kasi, the way it is expressed, iyong except,
mayroong sa una, exception muna tapos mayroong nakalista na
different sources naBasically, dito, its a negative listing.
In the
proposed law, its a positive listing.

SEN. RECTO. So, ulitin natin(a) Taxes, except income taxes,
imposed by the regional government, di ba?
MR. BACANI. Opo.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
So, ano ang ibig sabihin nito?
Income
taxes today are paid to whom, to the national government or

MR. BACANI. To the national government po, the national BIR.
SEN. RECTO.
At ngayon, as I mentioned earlier, sa kanila na
ngayon iyon. Iyon ang kaibahan ng ARMM at saka

MR. BACANI.
Hindi, hindi.
It will still be the national
government. Kung anuman iyong kailangang ibalik, ibabalik sa
91

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
3
SEN. RECTO. Precisely. Kokolektahin ng BIR habang wala pa

iyong autonomous region ng BIR because they will put up their own
similar BIR, di ba?
MR. BACANI. Basically for their local taxes.
SEN. RECTO. Correct.
Secretary, lets go straight to the relationship of the Bangsamoro
region or ARMM today and the local governments.
Ano ba iyong
kinokolekta ng local government, ng munisipyo at ng siyudad, what do

they collect? Real property.
MR. BACANI. Real property at saka iyong business taxes.
SEN. RECTO. Business taxes, tama?
MR. BACANI. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. May share ang barangay doon.
MR. BACANI. Yes.
SEN. RECTO. May share ang probinsya doon.
MR. BACANI. Yes.
SEN. RECTO. Ang probinsya ba kumokolekta ng business taxes,
income tax?
MR. BACANI.
Basically, sa mga ano iyon, wherever the
principal office is located.
92

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
4
SEN. RECTO. No. The province does not collect business taxes.
It only collects real property taxes.
MR. BACANI. Thats right.
SEN. RECTO.
At may sharing ang munisipyo at siyudad,
probinsya at barangay.
MR. BACANI. Oho. Yes.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. Dito sa regional government na ito, ARMM
today or Bangsamorodoes it alter the relationship between the
Bangsamoro regional government and the local government units?
MR. BACANI. The existing shares of the local government units
can in no way be diminished but it can be increased, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. In no way can it be
MR. BACANI. Can it be diminished but they can be increased,
because theres a proviso in all of these that any existing rights and
privileges of the local government units shall in no way be diminished.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
MR. BACANI. Unless altered for good governance purposes.
SEN. RECTO. What does it mean?
MR. BACANI.
For example po, iyongI can just imagine, I
would like to think that this is more for discipline. For example, a local
government leader goes to his area one day a month. Thats probably
93

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
5
a proper cause of some action that this should not be overlooked as

part of good governance, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The sanction that you are
proposing is the alteration somehow of the ability of the local
government to collect taxes for themselves?
MR. BACANI.
No.
There can be an incentive for local
governments so that their shares can be increased.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, with the permission of Senator Recto.
You said it cannot be diminished except for good governance.
Meaning, it can be on grounds of good governance.
MR. BACANI. Yes po, the way it is expressed right now.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes. So, what Senator Marcos is saying is,
you will essentially diminish the share of the LGU simply because the
mayor goes to work once a week? That was the example you cited.
MR. BACANI. It was just an example po without really referring
to the persons. I was more thinking of any disciplinary act regarding
the local government unit rather than to the increase or decrease in
the share.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
diminished
But the provision, sir, is it cannot be
exceptmeaning,
it
can
be
on
grounds
of
good
governance. So, what would be an example of that? What does that
94

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
6
cover?
And not only what does that cover.
That means kung may
nag-file ng kaso o nagkataong kalaban sa pulitika, fina-filan (file) ng

kaso, can the share of the province and local government unit be
diminished? Pag hindi siya binigyan ng seal of good governance, which
is discretionary to a large extent, can the share of the LGU be
diminished or decreased or hindi po?
MR. BACANI. Its possible, Your Honor, because the way its
phrased that they can be diminished if its for good governance
purposes.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
But should that be the case?
Should you
penalize the people for a corrupt or inept chief executive? Shouldnt

the remedy be, file a case against him, suspend him, remove him from
office, but not reduce the share of government funds that should be
spent or allocated for that local government unit.
MR. BACANI.
Yes po.
We will leave that to your collective
wisdom po in terms of how you want to phrase it because it can be

open
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). For the information also of
the committee, there are many areas which provide guarantees
unless. There is always that qualification that this is the rule unless
in the interest of good governance. This is one of them. So, that is
95

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
7
something that, again, needs to be clarified.
Because what was the
concept behind that and who determines good governance and what
actually constitutes good or bad governance and who will make that
determination?
It sounds there are no hard-and-fast rules written
down anywhere that can tell us that there is the seal of good
housekeeping, so-called, by the DILG. But beyond that, we dont have
anything else.
MR. LORENA. Mr. Chairman, if I may.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, Usec.
MR. LORENA. I think the provision of good governance came
into view because under the existing law, the autonomous region
would come up with a policy of continuous devolution to the local
government. And theyre even authorized to come up with their Local
Government
Code.
But
unfortunately,
in
the
course
of
the
implementation of Republic Act 9054, there was no further devolution

of the regional powers to the local government which immediately
became a problem in the autonomous region because the relationship
of the autonomous region to the local government was not welldefined under the existing Local Government Code of the ARMM which
is Muslim Mindanao Act No. 25, as amended by 43. So, that being the
case, the idea of ensuring that good governance could be still initiated
96

CODES
Mancol
IV-2
June 2, 2015
12:29 p.m.
8
in the Local Government Code came into view. The language perhaps
may give a wrong impression, as I agree with the good Senator
Escudero, that the language may have given a different impression.
But the idea is, the further devolution of the power given to the
regional government can be devolved. In fact, in Republic Act 9054
(nam)
97

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
1
MR. LORENA.
...In fact, in Republic Act 9054, under Article III,
it is provided that it is the policy of the region to further the devolution

to the local government. But the word there was may and it was not
done. And the idea of the word diminished also is provided in 9054.
It is that the word unlessbecause I agree, unless can mean a
negative.
But if it could be corrected in order to show that unless
furtherthe powers can be increased to further devolution of regional

powers to the local government, perhaps that will give a better view.
Just as a quick question,
kasi lumalayo na tayo sa tanong ni Senator Recto.
But last point
because Local Government Code, of course, is of particular interest to

this Committee, what are the powers of the regional government that
can be devolved to the Local Government Code, if not totally, at least
to a degree?
MR. LORENA.
Well, the relationship particularly between the
regional government and the local government which is not defined

under the Republic Act
Pero specific nga, dahil
ang national government ang dinivolve (devolve) is agriculture and

health care. So, what are the equivalents, sir, sa regional
98

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
2
MR. LORENA.
In the provision, it also mentioned about health
care, social services, and education.

MR. LORENA.
Pero na-devolve na iyon.
But remember, there is a devolution by Republic
Act 9054 of the ARMM.
But the Republic Act 7160 came ahead of
9054. So, 7160 covered the provision of IRA for social services, the 20
percent development fund to local government. But under 9054, this
power was retained in the autonomous region.
So, this is one of the
powers that are available to the regional government to devolve...

MR. LORENA.
That can be devolved. Yes.
...if they feel that the local
government has the capacity for it, they will devolve to the
MR. LORENA.
Yes.
Okay. Thank you.
Senator Recto, Im sorry, we have taken up your time.

SEN. RECTO.
No problem.
Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
You know, Secretary, as I mentioned earlier, the Bangsamoro
parliament shall, by law, establish the Bangsamoro tax office. So, in
effect, parang they can put up their own BIR, in effect, right?within
99

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
3
the
Bangsamoro
for
the
purpose
of
assessing
and
collecting
Bangsamoro taxes. And we already enumerated what these new taxes

would be. But today, what are they collecting? That is the question.
What are they collecting?
What does ARMM collect today?
Do they
collect anything? The regional government.

MR. BACANI.
Yes, Your Honor. They collect something but I
know its not significant.
Its in the millions of pesos and not in the
billions of pesos.
SEN. RECTO.
Yes.
So, what do they collect?
That is the
question.
MR. BACANI.
They have some charges and fees which they
have imposed based on the internal revenue regulations.

SEN. RECTO.
Yes, maybe the BIR.
Yes, please.
Yes, the BIR. Im sure the
BIR has some important points to make on the matter.

MS. RODRIGUEZ.
Mr. Chairman, right now, the ARMM has a
regional tax code pursuant to Muslim Mindanao Autonomy Act No. 49.
In which case, they are authorized to impose certain taxes, different
from what the...
SEN. RECTO.
LGUs are collecting.
100

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
4
MS. RODRIGUEZ.
...local government units are collecting. So,
we have here a list. Actually, if you go through the MMA Act 49, its a
long list of taxes. But then, some of them are not implemented simply
because they duplicate some of the provisions or impositions of the
local government, like real property tax. If the local government has
already not exceeding 1 percent of the assessed value being collected
by the province, the MMA No. 49 collects based on their tax code onetenth of 1 percent on top of that to be delegated to the municipality or
to the province. But then, as stated by Atty. Lorena, theres no such
clear agreement or something that the LGU will collect for the regional
government. So, what happens, they collect only those which they can
collect. Like I have here the regional wealth tax, the contractors tax
SEN. RECTO.
One point.
Regional wealth tax, galing ba sa
national government iyon, hindi?

MS. RODRIGUEZ.
Its different, Mr. Chair. That is included in
their regional tax code.

SEN. RECTO.
Okay. So, let me make this point

SEN. RECTO.
Im sorry, what is
Just one point, just one point.
How do you calculate the
tax rate? What exactly does it mean, the wealth tax?
101

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
5
MS. RODRIGUEZ.
I have here the Tax Code but I can give
you, sir, the

Well, just give us the
general picture of
MS. RODRIGUEZ.
Yes. In the Regional Tax Code, they have
the base and the rates specified in the Tax Code. And they have this
amount of collection, Mr. Chair.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
This is the point that Id like to make.
One, it is possible that you will alter under the BBL the relationship of
the regional government and the local government units, that is not
clear.
It could happen.
Second point, because theres another
government in-between the central and the local, in effect, it is more

expensive for taxpayers.
And thats where were giving all the
subsidies, to begin with. Thats my impression immediately. If they

were to collect all these in the Tax Code, and lets say impose, O,
sige, tell the provincial governments under the ARMM region, doblehin
niyo iyong real property tax, kalahati sa amin. Doblehin natin iyong
business tax, kalahati sa amin.
It makes it more expensive.
Mas
mahal. Kung magdadagdag tayo ng gobyerno, laging mas mahal. So,

in this case naman, ang sasagot nito everyone outside ARMM. Thats
why you have these block grants. Thats why you have this additional
102

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
6
wealth sharing.
Income taxes that are paid to the national
government na ibabalik na sa kanila, ibibigay sa kanila. Ulitin ko lang,

iyong
munisipyo,
may
tresyurera
iyan;
iyong
probinsiya,
may
tresyurera iyan; may mga tao iyan na tagakolekta; may business

permit iyan; may assessor iyan.
Anong mayroon iyong ARMM?
Do
they have representation or representatives in the local government

units?
Wala naman.
Thats why youre saying halos wala silang
nakokolekta. Is that correct?

MR. BACANI.
The one whos doing that, Your Honor, is iyong
mayroon silang treasurer sa ARMM...
units?
SEN. RECTO.
Correct.
MR. BACANI.
...regional treasurer.
SEN. RECTO.
Pero wala silang tao sa munisipyo nila.
MR. BACANI.
Wala. Wala. Basically
SEN. RECTO.
Can they impose taxes to the local government
Tell the governors, the mayors, Double your real property
tax. Can they do that?

MR. BACANI.
Mayroon kasing mga principles na nakalagay
dito sa
SEN. RECTO.
This is a simple question. I have to understand
what taxing powers are we giving them?
Can they tell the
103

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
7
municipalities in the cities, Double your business tax collection,

kalahati sa amin. Can they do that?
MR. BACANI.
Theoretically, puwede ho, except iyong
nakalagay sa mga principles in terms of the rules, in terms of the

imposition of taxes, uniformity of rates, equity, et cetera, et cetera.
SEN. RECTO.
So, theoretically, they can.
Theoretically, can
they tell the local government units, Bawasan mo ng kalahati iyong

real property tax?
MR. BACANI.
Puwede rin po because
SEN. RECTO.
Puwede rin.
So, did you consult the local
government units in the region with regard to these issues?

MR. BACANI.
Kanya po sa ano, even inwhat exists today,
walang masyadong coordination between the LGU

SEN. RECTO.
The question, Secretary, is, did you consult the
local government units?

MR. BACANI.
Yes po.
But with regard to that specific
provision in terms of reducing the tax rates or increasing the tax rates,
we did not discuss that
SEN. RECTO.
You did not.
So theyre not aware that this
authority, based on what youre telling me today, is given to the

regional government.
104

CODES
JLFLORES
V-2
June 2, 2015
12:39 p.m.
8
MR. BACANI.
Any Bangsamoro taxes that they can collect,
Your Honor, they, in effect, have some power over those taxes.
SEN. RECTO.
I understand.
Okay.
Thank you for that, for
your candid answers. Okay. So, ulitin ko lang, another impression I

have here is, if you have a regional government, it becomes more
expensive? .../jlf
105

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
1
SEN. RECTO.
MR. BACANI.
it becomes more expensive?

Thats true ho. Because I think that extra layer
of management of government, definitely, is additional overhead.

SEN. RECTO.
Is an additional cost.
MR. BACANI.
Is an additional cost to the total nation.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
MR. BACANI.
Hopefully po, mayroong offset which we can
discuss later.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay. In this case, it is an additional cost not to
the Bangsamoro people but to everyone outside Bangsamoro because

we are the ones paying for it.
MR. BACANI.
Yes po. Thats why I said, later we can discuss
ano iyong possible offset in the future.

SEN. RECTO.
And under the BBL, they are not contributing
anything to the national government at least for 10 years.

MR. BACANI.
Unless we start having exploration, development
and utilization of large natural resources.

SEN. RECTO.
Correct.
Now, with regard to those large natural resources, today, there

is already a clear sharing scheme between local government units and
the national government, is that correct?
106

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
2
MR. BACANI.
Yes, Your Honor. Like the 70 percent is 35-35.
SEN. RECTO.
There is a maliwanag na sharing scheme, di ba?
Does the BBL alter that?

MR. BACANI.
The BBL basically says it cannot reduce the
existing shares of the local government units.

SEN. RECTO.
And when you say, It can increase, it will take
it from the national government share?

MR. BACANI.
If we increase it from 70 to 75, they can give
part of that 5 percent

SEN. RECTO.
Where did the 5 percent come from, the national
government?
MR. BACANI.
Originally.
SEN. RECTO.
Correct. So binawasan sa national government.
That is if may makita. Tama? Okay. So maliwanag iyon.

So, again, mas mahal na naman kung mayroon additional
bureaucracy sa gitna.
MR. BACANI.
There is no question po about iyong extra layer
of government.
SEN.
RECTO.
Now,
my
understanding
of
regional
government is that common concerns within local government units,
107

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
3
sometimes it is better to have a regional administrative government of

some sort.
Ill give you an example.
Is there any other regional government in the country today?
Regional administration?
MR. BACANI.
Its the only one po in terms of the
autonomous
SEN. RECTO.
Yeah, in terms of the constitutional directive of
autonomy for Muslim Mindanao.

Okay.
But Ill give you one example of an existing regional
administrative government of some sort.

government.
MMDA, that is a regional
And then there are representatives of the local
government who sit in that board of some sort, right?
Now, here
youre gonna have elections for a parliament, di ba?

Okay. Walang representation doon iyong LGUs.
MR. BACANI.
Kanya po doon sa proposed structure, there will
be a council of leaders composed of provincial governors and city

mayors and other sectoral reps para mabuo iyong relationship which
doesnt exist today. Because today, most of the LGUs parang nagrereport sa DILG, parang they are not really in a way involved sa ARMM.
Hopefully, we can correct that situation.
108

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
4
SEN. RECTO.
MR. BACANI.
By forcing themby putting up this institution.

This council of leaders working together with the
chief minister and parliament.

SEN. RECTO.
Okay. Ano ba talaga ang trabaho nitong BBL na
ito o ng Bangsamoro regional government na ito?

Lets simplify.
Pagka barangay rules, sino iyong gumagawa? Barangay.
Pag municipal rules, sino ang may responsibilidad? Munisipyo.
Pagka provincial, sino ang may responsibilidad? Probinsya.
Pag national road, sino ang may responsibilidad? Public works.
Mayroon bang regional road?
MR. BACANI.
None so far, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.
A simple example.
Its either national
or
Halimbawa, sino ang may
responsibilidad sa eskwelahan, patubig?

So this is just another layer, another bureaucracy na hindi
maliwanag kung ano ba talaga ang tungkulin.
What is the role ba of this regional government in delivering
services to the public, to its constituency?
What is its role?
Na
siguraduhin na mabawasan ang kahirapan by providing infrastructures,

eskwelahan, ospital, so on and so forth.
109

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
5
MR. BACANI.
In the end po, thats the main goal through this
governance mechanism in terms of self-governance that in the end it

would redound to the benefit of the constituents in terms of quality of
life. Because we all recognize that as far as the quality of life in the
area, its way behind the other areas of the country when
If I may be permitted po, just to
SEN. RECTO.
Yes.
MR. BACANI.
Like the GDP of the area is less than 1 percent of
the GDP of the whole country.

SEN. RECTO.
Im aware of that.
MR. BACANI.
Poverty level is double the national average.
SEN. RECTO.
Correct. In spite of us spending how much na?
How much did we spend?

MR. BACANI.
We fully recognize po the problems in the past
because its something that will no longer be changed. It happened in

the past. Were hoping that there would be a change for the better in
the future
SEN. RECTO.
Thats precisely my point, Secretary.
We are making it more expensive for our people.
We have
another layer of bureaucracy na hindi maliwanag iyong tungkulin na

ito. Ano ba talaga ang trabaho nito?
110

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
6
Now, mayroon tayong regional development councils nationwide,

right? And thats why I think NEDA is here, the regional development
office.
There are regional development councils to identify the needs,
common needs in their region and that is submitted to NEDA. NEDA
makes
the
information
Philippine
taken
Development
from
the
Plan
regional
incorporating
development
all
those
councils
for
investment purposes, right, in a six-year Medium-Term Philippine

Development Plan and then that is assessed over time and changed, if
necessary, so on and so forth.
Now, knowing that that is the setup, ano iyong papel na ngayon
nitong 60-member parliament, this new organization?
Assuming, we needed this regional government, why did we not
just enhance ARMM? Because for whatever purpose, it is an enhanced
ARMM of some sort.
At kaya naman nababahala ang maraming
kababayan natin, titulo pa lang, Bangsamoro, Bansa ng Moro.

Maraming nagtatanong
Weve discussed this point
amongst ourselves, the senators, and it has been a prominent point of

discussion.
111

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
7
Im made to understand that at the beginning of the negotiations

that the first proposal was actually an amendment to the ARMM, am I
correct? An amendment to the ARMM was never proposed?
MR.
BACANI.
Hindi
po.
Basically,
there
was
the
comprehensive compact proposed to us.

Yes. But that is already
the result of the negotiations.

MR. BACANI.
Hindi po.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Nuong wala pa iyong

comprehensive agreement, wala pa iyong framework agreement, hindi
niyo ba napag-usapan na dapat ang gawin dito ay i-amyenda ang
ARMM? Kasi sinasabi nga natin, ginagawa natin ito dahil ARMM was an
experiment that failed.
So since it failed, tingnan natin kung bakit
hindi naging matagumpay, ayusin natin ang mga problema para

maging maayos ang patakbo. But that concept was never proposed or
hindi na-discuss.
MR. BACANI.
Hindi po na-propose becauseactually, I am one
of two original members left of the group four or five years ago. From
the start po, in fact, there was a very thick proposal in terms of the
proposal of the MILF which was much more than what we have today
112

CODES
CMNERY
VI-2
June 2, 2015
12:49 p.m.
8
So the starting point of
your negotiation was the proposal of the MILF.

MR. BACANI.
And then we made a counterproposal po which
we called three-in-one.
Oo nga.
Pero walang
original proposal ang gobyerno?

MR. BACANI.
Mayroon po. We have an original proposal, in
fact
Pero sagot iyon doon sa
MILF proposal o sabay itong

MR. BACANI.
Sabay po iyan iyongwe gave up three-in-one
proposal which was rejected by the MILF and then we rejected their
rejection of our proposal.
Well, thats a process of
negotiation. Ganun naman talaga.

MR. BACANI.
But both sides were coming from two different
directions. We have our own proposal

The proposal that this
takes the form/cmn
113

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
1
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). this takes the form of our

amendment of 9054, the amendment to the original organic law. Was
that proposal ever made by either side?
MR. BACANI. Hindi po. Iyong
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And was it, in the process
of the negotiation, ever discussed that this might be a possible solution
to some of the obstacles that we are finding?
Hindi napag-usapan
iyon?
MR. BACANI. Hindi po napag-usapan iyan because of the very
substantial changes envisioned in the proposed Bangsamoro Basic Law
that its not really just amending, but really Republic Act
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So it was always conceived
as a new law.
MR. BACANI. Yes po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, with the permission of Senator
RectoSecretary Bacani, ibang approach po iyong sinasabi ni Senator
Recto. Praktikal. May barangay tayo, munisipyo, syudad at probinsya.
May national government tayo.
Dapat sinasagot nila lahat ng
problema ng ARMM, BBL area.
Ngayon nagki-create tayo ng
panibagong organisasyon kapalit ng ARMM, bago pa nga iyong ARMM,
114

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
2
at inaamin po ninyo na dagdag gastos talaga iyon, hindi po ba?

Meaning, you were nodding your head a while ago, you were in
agreement with what Senator Recto was saying.
MR. BACANI. Just like the way it is today, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes.
MR. BACANI. Existing gastos po.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
The way it is today.
Pero ang sinasabi po
kasi ni Senator Recto, failed experiment nga iyong ARMM, pagkakamali

nga iyon, bakit natin ipagpapatuloy?
May sasabihin po akong maaring kasagutan.
Tama po bang sabihin na this is the price of peace? Na aminado
tayo, dagdag ito, hindi naman kailangang may otsentang congressman
ka pa uli. Iyong tatlong daang congressman nga lang at dalawamput
apat na senador ang dami nang nagrereklamo, dadagdagan pa natin
ng otsentang panibagong assemblyman na kung ano ang gagawin
nilay
hindi
maliwanag
kay
Senator
Recto,
may
sarili
silang
departamento tulad ng departamento ng national government na may

sweldo rin na marahil kapantay ng usec o secretary.
Kumbaga,
dinuplikeyt (duplicate).
SEN. RECTO.
Tapos kukunin ang pera sa lahat ng Juan Dela
Cruz na wala sa ARMM.
115

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
3
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So is this what youre saying?
Is this the
price of peace?
MR. LORENA. First, its both a price of peace and an answer to
the quest of the Bangsamoro for self-determination.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, no, huwag muna tayo doon.
MR. LORENA. Its an answer for peace, precisely because the
quest of the Bangsamoro for self-determination has brought us to
these 40 long years of conflict. In order to put an end to this, even at
the start of the negotiation with the MNLF, the idea of working within
the framework of autonomy was already conceptualized. That is why
up in 1987, even the constitutional framers thought it necessary, in
deference to the previous agreements, to come out with meaningful
autonomy as the
SEN. ESCUDERO. I agree, sir.
MR. LORENA. Well, yeah.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
I did not read that part in the framers
debate on the 86 Constitution, but what Im saying is, I agree with

Senator Recto, this is an additional layer of government.
inefficient.
Clearly inefficient.
Its
It provides for more costs and added
costs. Pero hindi naman ho lahat ng bagay dahil lang sa halaga, di po

ba? Kaya nga gusto ko ring linawanagin para maliwanag sa amin at
116

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
4
sa, sabi nga ni Senator Recto, sa mga magbabayad sa labas ng BBL, is

this what you call the price tag of peace?
MR. BACANI. In short po, yes. Ill try to answer it two ways,
the monetary aspects and the political aspects of it.
The way Im trying to look at the money aspects of it, the hope
is, again, this is for the future, that the hope is that there would be
just, equitable, and lasting peace in Mindanao. Therefore, a result of
that just and lasting peace, there will be a lot of investments, therell
be a lot of economic activity, there will be exploration, development
and utilization of natural resources most especially metallic minerals
and fossil fuel. When you look at the economic impact of that po when
you have a lot of economic activity, the tax base will definitely
increase.
The revenues from government will start coming in in the
long term
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Secretary, iyan po iyong binabanggit nyo
kaninang sukli o balik, hindi po ba, sa tanong ni Senator Recto?

MR. BACANI. Opo, iyong
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Pero alam nyo po, iyan din ho iyong
pinangako nila noong pinasa namin iyong ARMM. So darating po tayo

doon.
Maaaring hindi, maaaring oo.
Pero sa ngayon ang pinag-
uusapan natin, huwag muna iyong political kasi what were talking
117

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
5
about and focusing right now is how much does it cost to do this? Not
that we wont spend for it, not that its not worthy. We just want to
know what were paying for.
Is this the price of peace?
Because
clearly, this is not the price tag for a more efficient government. This
is a price tag for something perhaps we have to do to achieve peace in
Mindanao. Would that be a fair statement?
MR. BACANI. Tama po iyon, thats why the way Im trying to
look at it is iyong ano ba yung dagdag na gastos?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Later on po darating iyon. Pero sa ngayon
po ito iyong kailangan nating bayaran para manaig ang kapayapaanI
will be more specific, sirbetween the government and the MILF, is
that a fair statement?
MR. BACANI.
Oo.
Basically, were saying, itong gastos na
additional dito will be less than what we would be incurring.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes, sir, but is this the price we have to pay
to have peace between government and MILF?
The additional layer
which may be more inefficient, which is admittedly more inefficient,

but in order to be inclusive, we have to do this, thats what youre
saying?
MR. BACANI.
At saka hindi po lang MILF ito because this is
really for the whole Bangsamoro.
118

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
6
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, will it provide peace with BIFF?

MR. BACANI. Law enforcement issue po iyong BIFF at saka Abu
Sayaff.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir. No, sir. BIFF is in the ARMM-BBL
area. In fact, while we have been talking here, the AFP launched an
all-out offensive against the BIFF. So lets be fair. I mean, the biggest
group is the MILF right now, admittedly.
And thats why, perhaps,
youre talking to them. MNLF used to be the biggest group, they are
now one of the smallest groups. Thats perhaps why were not talking
to them, at least in the same level as the MILF. But to be fair, this will
provide peace, if this is the price tag of peace with the MILF, and we
will work our way to include, hindi ho ba, the MNLF, the BIFF, but right
now were just sure ofang nagbigay lang po ng ceasefire sa atin, di
ba MILF lang naman?
MR. BACANI.
Opo.
Iyon lang po yung klaro, pero there are
efforts to have the other groups.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Yes, of course.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I know, but as has already
been established, many of the other groups were not included in the
process, and the essential substantive process that was carried out
was with the GPH Peace Panel and the MILF. And you cannot say that
119

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
7
the BIFF is just a police problem, because at the very heart of all of
these uprisings, movements, revolutions is secession. That is what the
MNLF began fighting for. That is what MILF eventually fought for, and
from the declaration of Chairman Iqbal, they are continuing to fight for
until the BBL is enacted into law.
The BIFF has rejected the peace
agreement and has made their loyalties to ISIS, well-known, the same
with the ASG, the Abu Sayyaf group. So the nature of this war that we
have been fighting in Muslim Mindanao is the same. It is not simply a
criminal who has gone on a serial spree of killing that is a police
matter.
It is not that at all.
It is all directed towards secession, at
least in the very beginning. And to remind everyone, that is exactly

the declaration and the definition of the MILF as given us by Chairman
Iqbal in declaring that the MILF continues to be a revolutionary
organization until the peace agreement is finally consummated by the
implementation of the BBL. So let us be very clear about what we are
dealing with.
These are not dissimilar movements.
They are very
similar, as a matter of fact, and the root of all of it has been secession.
Now the approach of government to try and amplify, what
Senator Escudero was getting at, what we have had to do is to ask
why do you choose to secede, and the answer comes back, Because
we have no self-determination despite the fact that we are a different
120

CODES
CBGealan
VII-2
June 2, 2015
12:59 p.m.
8
culture, we have a different history, we have a different religion, we

have different law. Now the response of government is precisely to
take that into account and provide that self-determination. Hence, the
autonomous regions. Originally, the two, IX and XII. Now, the ARMM,
and then this is the proposal now for the BBL/cbg
121

AND
CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS AND REVISION OF
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
1
this is the proposal now
for the BBL.

So I think it is undeniable that we are doing all of these to
achieve peace. Thats the whole process. BBL is not in itself peace; it
is a part of the peace process. And so the questions that the senators
are trying to get an answer for to make clear is just essentially, we
have local governments. They are not perfect.
We do not have
regional governments but we feel we dont have need for regional

governments. Now, we are instituting, we are organizing a regional
government.
And the question is simply this: Why are we doing this? Hindi
nga maliwanag kung ano iyong function, hindi nga maliwanag kung
saan ang kanilang areas of responsibility. That is what we will have to
define now in the BBL. But essentially, it is something that we have to
do. You know, it is axiomatic in management that the fewer layers,
the more efficient the system.
Now, we are adding a system which
seems to be contrary to that kind of thinking.

But is that necessary? Then the question is necessary with its
attendant cost. Are we saying this is necessary for the MILF to stop
fighting the government? Is that what essentially all of this is about?
That is the question that we have before you.
122

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
2
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Mr. Chairman, before he answers. Hindi po
nangangahulugang mali.
Maganda lang ho na klaro kaysa naman
magbibiruan o maglolokohan. At least, alam natin ano eksakto iyong

ginagawa natin, magkano ba iyong manggagaling sa ibat-ibang parte
ng bansa sa labas ng BBL at ano
lamang natin.
ba iyong kapalit na inaasahan
Dahil kung tatrabahuhin pa lamang natin iyong ibang
mga nagrerebeldeng grupo, at least, maliwanag din po sa lahat at

hindi natin pinapataas iyong pag-asa nila sa isang bagay na wala pa
naman talaga doon.
Kung ang MILF mismo hindi titigil sa pagiging rebeldeng grupo
hanggat
hindi
pa
ganap
itong
pinag-uusapan
natin,
at
least,
maliwanag din po. At least, alam din natin kung hangggang saan din
lang dapat tayo kung ito lang din iyong makakamit natin sa prosesong
ito.
Hindi po kami nangangahulugang tutol doon.
SEN. RECTO. And just to add to that before you respond, alam
din ng mga kababayan natin malaki na ang nagastos natin sa ARMM.
Kinausap natin ang MNLF, nagkaroon tayo ng peace process, gumastos
na rin tayo, gumawa tayo ng inefficient bureaucracy, nawala lahat ng
pera, it would appear. Daang bilyon ang pinag-uusapan dito, daang
bilyon, mahirap pa rin iyong mga tao sa ARMM.
Pagkatapos nuon,
123

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
3
wala namang MILF dati.

Saan ba nanggaling iyong MILF? Galing din sa MNLF. At ngayon
tinatanong din ng maraming kababayan natinito, dagdag na naman
ito, enhanced ARMM ito.
Sa totoo lang, it is an enhanced ARMM
pinangalanan lang natin na BBLna hindi maliwanag ang tungkulin na

itomaliwanag iyonat gastos din ito. Dahil hinihingi ng MILF na sila
naman ang makaupo, ganoon ang lumalabas dito.
Ano
ang
kasiguraduhan
kapayapaan dito?
natin
na
magkakaroon
tayo
ng
Hindi ba at posiblie rin na pagkatapos nito may
bagong grupo ang lalabas, na may mga junior officer na hindi

makikinig at sinasabing, Hindi namin pinahintulutan iyong peace
process na iyan,
at tanggalin na naman itong mga liderato nila at
patuloy ang giyera?

In an environment today, global environment that you have
ISIS, so on and so forth, hindi ba, anong assurance natin dito? Alam
na natin na inefficient itong ginagawa natin.
Yes, Secretary Bacani.
MR. BACANI. Definitely po, walang guarantee na kapag napasa
natin ito, automatically, magkakaroon ng peace because its a process.
I think it will just lay the groundwork for a longer term solution to the
problems we have in Mindanao.
124

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
4
Certainly po, I think we all acknowledge there is a cost to it. Its

an additional overhead.
expression
of
Its not necessarily the most efficient but
self-governance.
Iyon
pong
aspirations
Bangsamoro, Im referring to the whole Bangsamoro,
of
the
I think its
something that we need to fill.

Personally, when I look at the cost, monetary-wise, the
incremental cost nito, I think, will easily be paid for by the lesser
expenditures we have on the Armed Forces of the Philippines,
Philippine National Police, etcetera.
SEN. RECTO. That assumes that there is peace.
MR. BACANI. Yes po.
We acknowledge that there is a lot of
money lost in the past. But unfortunately, we can no longer change

the past.
So were looking forward to the future. Were hoping that
there would be good governance, were hoping that we will have good
partners in government in laying the groundwork.
SEN. RECTO. Yes, thats precisely the point, Secretary.
understand all of that. You talked about good governance.
We
We are
adding a layer here that is totally inefficient.

What good governance are we talking about, organizationally
speaking, to begin with? I understand the politics of it. The political, I
understand.
125

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
5
But why cant we write an enhanced ARMM
or a BBL clearly
defining whats the responsibility of ARMM or Bangsamoro Region

should be?
Na hindi naman 80 percent ng perang ibibigay natin sa
block grant, halimbawa, rito sa ARMM, no strings attached, at lahat

iyan personal services ang pupunta.
Wala ring gagawin na kalsada,
wala ring gagawin na hospital. Gagastos tayo ng PhilHealth doon, wala

namang hospital, hindi ba?
Malaki ang gastos ng PhilHealth natin
doon, wala namang hospital.

So what good governance are we talking about? Thats precisely
the point. The politics, I understand.
understand.
Usec, you have to
Siyempre hindi mo maiiwasan, nagtatanong ang nasa
labas lalo na ang tiga-Visayas at tiga-Luzon.
At sinasabi, Iyang
ibinabayad natin sa magiging Bangsamoro government ay sa amin

galing.
Kahit papaano, iyong ibinabayad natin sa Bangsamoro
government, bawas ngayon doon sa pondo na available sa amin na

gamitin para doon sa aming lugar.
Bakit?
Anong interest namin
diyan? Bakit namin gagawin iyan? Di sana itago na lang namin iyong
pera, gamitin namin sa sarili namin. Bahala na iyan.
What do we get out of it? Whats in it for me? And thats a
perfectly reasonable question when an ordinary citizen residing
126

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
6
somewhere
in
the
Visayas,
somewhere
in
This is not of no consequence to me.

nararamdaman nawalang maitutulong.
buhay ko dahil dito.
Luzon,
says
that,
Wala naman akong
Hindi naman gaganda ang
Kung hindi natin ginawa, hindi naman masisira
buhay ko. Kung gawin natin, mas maginhawa buhay ko.

Kailangan nating sagutin iyan dahil iyan ang laging itinatanong
sa amin.
Iyan ang laging itinatanong, Bakit pa natin ginagawa ito?
Bakit ang laki-laki ng pera na ibinibigay natin dito na sa amin kukunin?

What do we gain from this?
That is a perfectly reasonable question and we try to answer.
But perhaps, you can give us a better one so that kapag hinarap kami
ng taong-bayan at ganyan ang tanong sa amin, maisasagot namin
nang mabuti.
MR. BACANI. Iyong sagot ko lang po diyanagain, this is
long-term. In the end, they will pay lesser taxes because the economy
is growing, there are a lot of investments, the tax base is higher.
Hindi, inaano ko lang iyong para ba sa ordinary man on the street. Its
hard to explain.
SEN. RECTO.
Secretary, one point.
That assumes that there
will be peace at massive investments will come in, so on and so forth.

Well, you know, I should admire you for your positive thinking.
127

AND
CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-2
June 2, 2015
1:09 p.m.
7
Nagtataka lang ako noong pinag-usapan ninyo itong ARMM na

ito, sinabi niyo failed ito. Bakit nag-fail nga? Inefficient nga, mali nga.
Gagawa tayo ng BBL, pareho rin naman dito.
Bago lang ang titulo,
dagdag na kapangyarihan, dagdag na pondo.

How will it work this time? I understand about the politics of it,
talking to the MILF. Sila iyong may armas, naiintindihan ko iyon.
Now, iyong tinatanong ni Senator Bongbong Marcos, iyon din ang
tanong sa amin, sa akin, halimbawa. Sige, 75 billion ang gagastusin
natin diyan, palaki nang palaki iyan taun-taon in the next six years.
Palaki nang palaki iyan.
Napakahirap magpasa ng batas dito.
Bawasan ang buwis, iyan ang kapalit/jbc
128

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
1
SEN. RECTO.
iyan ang kapalit.
Halimbawa, to restructure
income taxes, magkano ang gagastusin para ayusin natin iyong index
ng restructuring ng income tax, mga 30 billion? Itong binibigay natin
75 billion kaagad-agad.
With 75 billion, puwede nang 100 percent
PhilHealth coverage lahat ng Pilipino kasama ang Bangsamoro.
Ito
iyong mga kapalit na sinasabi ko. I am not against this. But all I am
saying is that why not write it clearer what should be the relationship,
what should be the responsibilities of this region to its constituents and
to the national government.
Wala dito.
Hindi maliwanag.
Ano ba
talaga ang tungkulin nila?

Now, another point.
We understand what youre going to say
already na magkakaroon ng kapayapaan, may dagdag investments.

Alam mo, iyong giyera mahal iyan. Ang kapayapaan mahal din iyan,
naintindihan ko iyan. War is costly but peace is also expensive. You
know, we havent even gotten to all the details here.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Before we continue, can I
just, for the record, as we have requested from Mr. Trovela of the
DILG, Usec Edwin Enrile, usec of the DILG, has arrived to maybe
answer some of the questions that were proposed early on. But just
129

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
2
for the record, he is here. So maybe we will get back to him at some
point.
Thank you, Usec, for coming.
MS. TOMAWIS. Mr. Chair, sir, on the issue that you are asking
on. I have worked with ARMM for 20 years. I was a journalist covering
ARMM, Lanao Del Sur area where I am from.
Two things that I
experienced when I was working in ARMM wasI wont say the

agencies, two agenciesone agency. They had to down list a list of
beneficiaries that were, according to the barangay captains or
according to a mayor in the municipality where I am from, they dont
have any participation of.
So pinag-aawayan po, nagri-Rido na,
nagpu-feud na po, vendetta, ang mga local dahil wala daw silang
partisipasyon sa paglilista ng beneficiaries.
Pangalawa po, ang isang
example during my time in ARMM was an examination for teachers

that had to take years for Madaris teachers to be accredited because
ang tagal-tagal po ng national i-craft iyong examination. Nag-iiyakan
na ang mga kababayan nating mga taga-Maguindanao and all those
qualified kasi wala daw examinations na dina-download sa kanila para
makapagsweldo na sila.
So these are two examples when I was
working concretely in ARMM and I can, siguro, list down a lot of the
130

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
3
complaints that are evidence-based and actual. And what this offers is
this BBLs efficiency. Why?
Direct proximity to a culture, to a way of
life that recognizes, understanding iyong dialogue, understanding

council of elders, understanding Rido na baka kailangan ng lenggwahe
na
kailangang
makipag-intindihan
with
IPs,
indigenous
peoples.
Kailangan po direct proximate, relasyon sa baba. And that for me is

the efficiency of this program. ARMM plus, plus, yes, asymmetric po,
nasa batas. What the BBL drafter bill are, according to the House bill,
says, You will respect, this law will respect the recognition of the
Bangsamoro identity, their aspiration for self-governance. I-Supreme
Court nyo iyan kung magkakaroon ng away. There is always the legal
remedy. You said also in Section 2 sa batas, the national government
shall respect the exercise of competencies and exclusive powers of the
Bangsamoro, then it shall also respect the exercise of competencies.
Sirs, Ive been there for 20 years. Ive seen graduates by the 15,000
because I sat as a regent ng Mindanao State University. Wala pong
kumpanyang pupuntahan. At pumunta sa ManilaI am a UP Diliman
product, no company accepted me around Quezon City circle.
UP
Diliman po iyan. What more for Notre Dame or Mindanao State?
131

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
4
So, please po, I hope that the efficiency is addressed because

you are adding through a respect and honoring of the talent and
competencies of the youth na walang pupuntahan.
MILF can easily
recruit these young people. Ang daming kababaihan po ang nandiyan,

nanganganak na doon sa mountains. And youre talking 40,000 armed
men.
Pass the BBL and youve talked to 40,000 men and women
who are rebels.

Well, yes, thank you.
Thats exactly what we are trying to do. That is the problem that we
are trying to clarify.
One of the, I would say, witnesses of the draft
BBL when it was handed to us was not only the identified infirmities,
legal and otherwise, but also lack of clarity in terms of the systems.
And that is what we are trying to tie down right now.
MS. TOMAWIS.
Sir, there is an intergovernmental relations
board in the law.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Senator Recto, would you
like--?
SEN. RECTO. Just a final point.
Assuming we pass the BBL, assuming that it is approved in a
plebiscite in ARMM--and there is no doubt it will be approvedbut like
132

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
5
I said earlier, I would prefer a national plebiscite on the issuewhat

happens next? You will create this transition authority to be appointed
by the President.
Magbibigay pa tayo ng isang bilyon doon sa
transition authority. Tama?

MR. BACANI. Correct po.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
And in that, can we find out also
magkano? Please submit it to the Committee. Financial statement ng

ARMM puwede bang makita naman namin? COA-audited kung puwede
iyong financial statement ng ARMM.
And then you will have elections next year, right?
How many
arms does the MILF have? Ilan bang armas mayroon ang MILF? Ten
to 40,000?
The latest figure is that
there are more or less 40,000 fighters.

SEN. RECTO.
natin ito? Kailan?
So, ibababa ba nila iyong armas nila pagpasa
And/or during the elections ba hawak pa rin nila
iyong armas na ito?

MR. BACANI.
Sige po, iyon munang last before I answer the
other questions. There is a normalization process na kasama po doon

sa comprehensive agreement of the Bangsamoro.
There is four
133

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
6
phases: Iyong phase one, from the signing of the agreement up to the
validation and verification of forces and arms of the MILF; phase two,
from there up to the ratification of the basic law; phase three, from the
ratification of the basic law in the plebiscite to operationalization of the
Bangsamoro police force; phase four
SEN. RECTO. Operation
MR. BACANI.
Operationalization of the Bangsamoro police
force.
SEN. RECTO. Why is that important that that be operationalized
first before
MR. BACANI. Its just one of the benchmarks because that will
happen when there is a BTA (Bangsamoro Transition Authority).
SEN. RECTO. Oo nga, whats the first benchmark, ipasa iyong
batas?
MR. BACANI. Hindi po. Iyong verification and validation of the
numbers of MILF forces and weapons. Second po iyong mapasa ang
batas at saka ma-ratify sa plebisito.
SEN. RECTO. Magbabawas ng armas.
MR. BACANI. Opo. Iyong first phase po which will happen this
month will have the ceremonial turnover of crew-serve weapons and
134

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
7
high-powered firearms.
It will happen in June.
Initially--ceremonial
turnover lang20 crew-serve weapons and 55 high-powered firearms.

In the very first hearing
that we had, Usec Bacani, Secretary Ging Deles told me that phase one
had already began dahil napirmahan na nga iyong agreement.
MR. BACANI.
It will only happen this month, Your Honor,
because
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Crew-serve weapon, more
than one person is needed to operate it.
MR. BACANI. Yes. Sometimes you may need as many as five
persons for that crew-serve weapon. Actually it will only happen this
month, Your Honor, the ceremonial turnover.
But ceremonial is, as we
know very well, for ceremony. But the actual turnover, why is it
MR. BACANI. The actual turnover will happen. Its just to start
the whole process.
Hindi ba dapat iyan
pagpirma ng comprehensive agreement nagsimula na iyan?

MR. BACANI.
Thats the start of the phase one and the
verification
135

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-3
June 2, 2015
1:19 p.m.
8
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Precisely, thats crew-serve

and the embargoing and then the listing by joint task force between
the OPAPP and the AFP.
MR. BACANI.
Hindi po.
Mayroon po tayong independent
decommissioning body.
Who is part of that
decommissioning body?
MR. BACANI. The chairman is the former/alicc
136

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
1
MR. BACANI.
...The chairman is the former ambassador of
Turkey to NATO; the next one is a general from Norway who was
responsible for the decommissioning in Nepal; the third is a military
officer from Brunei; and then we have a retired general from AFP; one
ex-congressman, also representing the government; and then we have
two
from
the
MILF.
Theres
seven-person
independent
decommissioning body. In fact, the group has been organized. They

are just planning today the actual date of the ceremonial turnover and
the subsequent events. Because the second phase, Your Honor, is 30
percent of the forces and weapons should be completed by the time
that there is ratification of the law.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Completed, meaning, surrendered?
MR. BACANI.
Yes, Your Honor.
We dont want to call it
surrender, Your Honor, turnover.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Lets use it in its strictest sense, ibibigay sa
gobyerno.
May I ask, sir--if I may, Mr. Chairmansabi ninyo, inventory.
Ilan po ba talaga? Para malaman natin ilan ba iyong 30 percent. You
said, we will do the ceremonial this month, so I guess we already know
how many. How many men and how many arms?
137

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
2
MR. BACANI. Its the end of the process, Your Honor, in terms
of
the
validation
and
verification.
The
numbers
are
with
the
Independent Decommissioning Body.

SEN. ESCUDERO. So by the end of the month we would know?
MR. BACANI. Hopefully, we will have
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, the first stage is finding out how many.
MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
You said we will have a turnover.
about to be done with that.
We are
So by the end of the month, we would
know.
MR. BACANI. Its a continuing, Your Honor, from the time there
is a signing of the Comprehensive Agreement on the Bangsamoro up to
the time there is a validation and verification of the MILF forces and
weapons.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Thats why. Tapos na po ba iyon?
MR. BACANI. Hindi pa po. Kanya po in the meantime, all of
these actions hindi lang po decommissioning but all of the other
actions simultaneous.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, ang understanding ko po doon sa sinabi
ng OPAPP, nagawa na po iyon. So kailan po natin malalaman kung ilan
iyong armas nila at ilan ang tao nila? Siguro naman po bago dumating
138

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
3
sa second stage, dahil iyong second stage, trenta porsyento kailangan

po nilang i-turn over.
MR. BACANI. Opo.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So kailan po iyon? Kailangan ba po naming
hintayin iyon bago namin ipasa iyong batas?
Dahil baka mamaya
ipinasa na namin, hindi pa natin alam kung ilan.

MR. BACANI. We are hoping po that all of these will have been
done by then.
SEN. ESCUDERO. No, sir. You have been rushing Congress, I
mean, you wanted us to approve this on June 10. If we had approved
this in March and the plebiscite would have been scheduled by July,
then we should have known already.
So my question essentially, sir, is naka-tack iyong second stage
ratification ng BBL, hindi po ba, at kapag nagawa natin iyon, trenta
porsyento dapat isuko po nilai-turn over nila. Paano po nila iti-turn
over iyon kung hindi natin alam man lang hanggang ngayon at ni hindi
natin alam kung kailan malalaman, ilan po ba iyong armas at tao nila?
When is the deadline for that, sir? Is there a deadline? Because you
have been imposing deadlines on Congress. I want to know when is
your deadline to find out how many are the forces of the MILF and how
many guns and what types of guns do they have.
139

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
4
MR. BACANI. Yes. Malalaman po lahat iyan. All of these will

have
to
be
submitted
and
validated
by
the
Independent
Decommissioning Body.
SEN. ESCUDERO. When, sir? When is the deadline?
MR. BACANI.
Well have to check with them in terms of the
expected dates because its supposed to be independent. But we have

to admit po na naantala iyong schedule because of what happened
over the last several months. Because, originally, we were thinking of
the ceremonial turnover way back, but naantala po because of, you
know what happened.
Nagka-delay-delay po lahat because of the
intervening events, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Mamasapano, in particular.
MR. BACANI. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Actually, Usec, the largest
delay was the finalization of the draft BBL. It was supposed to come to
Congress in April, it came at the end of September.
MR. BACANI. Hindi po. Nagsasabayan kasi iyongbecause of
thenagbabantayan
SEN. RECTO.
Secretary, sa madaling salita, pagdating ng
halalan next yeariyon naman ang tanong kohindi lahat ng baril naturn over.
140

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
5
MR. BACANI.
Sigurado po.
Ang sagot lang po namin diyan,
definitely, there will still be arms.

SEN. RECTO.
By what, singkwenta porsyento matitira sa
kanila?
MR. BACANI. Hopefully about 35 percent.
SEN. RECTO.
So pumayag tayo na pagdating ng halalan, 35
percent ng armas nila mananatili pa rin sa kanila?

MR. BACANI. Hindi po tayo pumayag diyan. Because, as you
know, iyong Comprehensive Agreement on the Bangsamoro was
signed March 2014, but because of what happened over the last year
or sothe idea was to have the complete decommissioning by May
2016 because, ideally, noon, no political party should be holding arms
during election but because of the delays in the decommissioning
process, for one reason or another, mayroon pa
SEN. RECTO. Mayroon pa rin silang armas.
MR. BACANI. Ang sagot lang po namin diyan, I think iyong
ano ba ang tawag dooniyong gun ban, which have proven effective in
the past, absolute gun ban
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Just to pin this thing down.
When is the 100 percent decommissioning expected to be done, at
which point in this process?
141

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
6
MR. BACANI.
Nakalagay po sa agreement on normalization,
two months before the singing of the exit agreement.
The exit
agreement being that there has been compliance of all of the

agreements by both parties.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So it is not dependent on
the conduct of the elections for the Bangsamoro parliament?
MR. BACANI. Hindi po, although
So there is a distinct
possibility, and it is probably actually more than a possibility, but a

likelihood, that kapag nagkaroon na ng election para sa Bangsamoro
parliament, armado pa rin ang karamihan ng MILF?
MR. BACANI. We are hoping that
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No.
No hope.
Hope is
good habang nananalangin tayo. Pero ito, iba ang usapan dito.
So there is a very good likelihood, malamang ang mangyayari,
kapag may halalan na para sa mga members of parliament ng
Bangsamoro parliament, karamihan pa rin ng MILF ay armado pa.
MR. BACANI. Marami pa rin.
Marami pa rin.
Ibig
sabihin, habang pinapatakbo ng Comelec ang halalan ay ang MILF ay

armado pa.
142

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
7
MR. BACANI.
I think mayroong possible solution po diyan in
terms of the
Dahil alam naman natin
kapag may isang grupo na armado sa isang halalansiguro malawak

na ang ating mga karanasan tungkol diyan sa mga nangyayari sa
ganyang klaseng sitwasyon.
Pero you said there is a possible solution, what would that be?
MR. BACANI.
Iyong absolute gun ban for all parties, sir,
because
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Absolute?
MR. BACANI. Absolute gun ban for all.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You are telling me that you
are
MR. BACANI.
The way I understand it, Your Honor, it was
proven effective during the last elections, iyong gun ban natin in 2013.
Relatively speaking, sabi ng mga tao
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Teka. Ang sinasabi ng gun
ban ay walang maaaring humawak ng baril habang period of elections.
Hindi ka pwedeng magsukbit ng baril; hindi ka pwedeng magkaroon ng
baril sa sasakyan mo, etcetera, etcetera.
Pero hindi sinasabing
ibabalik o isu-surrender o i-turn over, to use your word, iti-turn over

ang mga baril.
So kahit na sabihin natin na hindi nila hawak ang
143

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-3
June 2, 2015
1:29 p.m.
8
kanilang mga baril, nandiyan pa, naka-storage naKapag walang

mag-implement noong gun ban, di pwede pa rin nilang hawakan iyong
baril nila, lalo na iyong mga lupalop na malayu-layo doon sa mga
urban centers.
Hindi ko sinasabing iyan lang ang nangyayari sa
Muslim Mindanao, nangyayari sa lahat naman ng ating localities.
So
its a problem.
SEN. RECTO. Mr. Chairman, ang kaibahan lang dito, may gun
banhawak nila iyong baril sa election, may gun ban ang police nila.
MR. BACANI.
Mr. Chairman, in-explain na ho namin kanina
iyong sa pulis, that, basically, its the existing PNP
who will be 95
percent or more of the existing PNP will comprise the Bangsamoro

Police po.
SEN. RECTO. No. Let me ask you a question simply, Secretary.
Baka kayo nakikipag-negotiate blindly.
Bakit ganoon kahalaga na
nilagay sa agreement na ito iyong pag-uusap tungkol sa PNP?
Bakit
iyong chief minister... /jmb
144

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
1
SEN. RECTO. Bakit iyong chief minister miyembro ng ano,

National Police Commission ba iyon, local Napolcom?
MR. BACANI. May sariling Napolcom.
SEN. RECTO.
Oo.
Bakit nila ginawa iyon?
Anong dahilan sa
utak nila sa tingin ninyo?

MR. BACANI. Because they will be responsible for public order
and safety jointly with the national government.
THE
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
Senator
Recto,
tamangtama nandito si Usec Enrile, itanong natin kung ano iyong

kanilang iniisip tungkol nga sa National Police Commission na may
sarili ang Bangsamoro. Ito sagutin muna natin. We will come back to
the questions that we asked Mr. Trovela earlier.
Pero sa ngayon,
papaano ba talaga ang magiging conduct of elections?
Ano ang
magiging implementasyon ng gun ban pag nagkaroon ng election ng

Bangsamoro Parliament?
MR. ENRILE. Regarding po doon sa question, Your Honor, iyong
regarding sa regional police board ng Napolcom, ang nakasaad naman
po sa bataswhat is stated clearly in the law is that, the regional
board of the Napolcom is going to be part of the Napolcom po. Iyan
iyong sinumite.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Batas o bill?
145

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
2
MR. ENRILE. Sa bill po. Sorry po.

SEN. RECTO. Bakit walang ganoon
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So, parang peace and order
council ang
MR. ENRILE. Hindi ho. Parang ang envision nga ho dito
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Ano ang kaibahan nga ng
peace and order council? Because that is the only equivalent, rather
iyan ang pinaka-close equivalent sa local government, sa probinsiya.
Pero anong conception nga ninyo dito sa provincial directorate, police
directorate? I am not sure what the term you are using.
MR. ENRILE.
Ang term po ay Bangsamoro Police Board po.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Bangsamoro Police Board.

Okay.
MR. ENRILE.
Bangsamoro Police Board is going to be part of
the Napolcom po. Ang konsepto ng Napolcom is that this is going to

be actually just an enhanced version of a regional office of the
Napolcom.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Sir, it says, The BPB will perform the
functions of the Napolcom with the Bangsamoro. So, it has the power
to discipline members of the police force.
146

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
3
MR. ENRILE.
But, of course, still under part of Napolcom po,
still part of the National Police Commission.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Meaning, you can appeal decisions to the
Napolcom?
MR. ENRILE. That is, of course, po provided under the law
because its still part of the Napolcom Board.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Is that in the bill that you can appeal the
decisions of the BPB to the Napolcom Board?

MR. ENRILE. It might not have been expressed po. But iyan
iyong ano.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Number one, its not.
Number two, do you have a counterpart BPB in Region I?
MR. ENRILE. Wala po.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, we do not have.
SEN. ESCUDERO. In any of the regions.
MR. ENRILE. Regional office lang po ng Napolcom.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). There are regional offices.
There is no commission of any central form in the regional or even in
the provincial level.
147

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
4
SEN. ESCUDERO. Kaya ang taas ng backlog ng Napolcom kasi

hindi ba, lahat ng kaso sa pag-discipline ng police sa buong bansa,
maliban sa PLEBmay PLEB pa tayo ngayon, di ba?
MR. ENRILE. May PLEB pa po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Maliban sa PLEB deretso iyan sa Napolcom.
MR. ENRILE. Mayroon din po iyong ano mismo. The unit itself
po, PNP also has and the IAS po.
SEN.
ESCUDERO.
Of
course.
So,
right
now,
walang
counterpart iyong BPB?

MR. ENRILE. Wala po.
SEN. ESCUDERO. At hindi rin klaro kung appealable ba o final
ang decision ng BPB? Because if its part of it, and it says it will --from the functions of Napolcom, a straightforward understanding
would be that their decision would be as if it was the decision of
Napolcom.
MR. ENRILE. Yes, sir. Opo.
Under the proposed bill, it is silent po. Because what we are also
trying to reconcile is that, of course, under the Constitution, there is
only one National Police Commission.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Precisely.
148

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
5
MR. ENRILE. Thats why there is the statement in Section 5 of

the proposed bill that is part of the Napolcom although its not implied
regarding the appealability. Of course, if its going to be interpreted
that its part of the Napolcom, then it should be appealable also to the
Napolcom.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So, you would suggest that we clarify the
decisions of this BPB would be appealable to the Napolcom?

MR. ENRILE. I leave it to the wisdom, of course, of the Senate.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Well, thats about the same
question, but make it overall.
What is your idea as to what the
relationship? This is one of the bodies that we have to define. What is

the relationship of the Napolcom and the Bangsamoro Police Board?
And where does the chief minister fit in?
function in the chain of command.
Because he has a line
You know, the reason that this is
all a mystery to us or hindi namin masyadong maunawaan ay dahil

walang
equivalent
gumagawa
nito,
ito
sa
walang
local
government,
regional
Napolcom,
ngayon
walang
lang
tayo
pronvincial.
Kagaya ng sabi ko, ang pinakamalapit na diyan iyong peace and order
council, but its entirely a different function. Its a civilian, its also a
civilian board, its a civilian body.
149

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
6
So, what is your concept on how that relationship will be

between the Bangsamoro Police Board and the Napolcom in Crame?
MR. ENRILE. Napolcom po and the Bangsamoro Police Board, I
envision it also because under the law and then, of course, we have to
follow the precepts of the Constitution, it has to be part of the
Napolcom.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, I know. But in what
way is it part of the Napolcom?
Iyong tanong ni Senator Escudero,
appealable ba ang mga decision ng BPB sa Napolcom? Iyong sa hiring,

saan ba ang decision, will it be Napolcom still? Who will sign the
appointments, iyong promotions, sinong pipirma ng promotions, iyong
BPB ba o iyong Napolcom?
Will those promotions, assignments, et
cetera be appealable to the Napolcom?

MR. ENRILE. I was just pointed out to the provision daw po,
Section 5 is that, even the decisions nga of the Bangsamoro Police
Board is appealable to the Napolcom.
Its in fact po.
And also the
appointment po, ang understanding ko, there is also a process in the

appointment of officers and members of the Bangsamoro Police Board,
Police Officer I and Senior Police Officer IV, its going to be appointed
by the head of the Bangsamoro police.
It is also parallel right now
with what is happening. Because right now, usually who appoints this
150

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
7
are the regional offices ang nag-a-appoint when it comes to Police

Officer I to Senior Police Officer IV.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Iyong RD sa regional.
MR.
ENRILE.
Opo.
At
ang
inspector
naman
po
to
superintendent ang nag-a-appoint right now is the chief of the

And thats still going to happen po under
the proposed bill. And senior superintendent and above still going to
be by the President. Ang ano po, maybe we can clarify this alsoupon
recommendation of the chief of the National Police.
But the process
right now po, whenever there is appointment of senior superintendent

dumadaan po sa chief of National Police, nag SOPPB po, mayroong
senior officers placement board, sina-submit sa Napolcom, Napolcom
naman po sina-submit sa Presidente.
And then the President makes
the final appointment.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Out of curiosity, sir, because I know this for
a fact. Ilan ang pending appointment sa Napolcom ngayon?
MR. ENRILE. I am not with the Napolcom per se. So, I would
have to get the information pa po. Medyo marami-rami.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Not with Napolcom. Ilan ang acting na chief
of police sa buong bansa, whether it be municipal, city or provincial?
The numbers are substantial.
151

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
8
MR. ENRILE. It might be correct po.

SEN. ESCUDERO. Would that be an accurate statement?
MR. ENRILE.
I dont have the numbers with me, but I also
heard that there is some

SEN. ESCUDERO. Can you submit that to us sir, just to find out
if that will be a probable backlog in relation to what were trying to do?
MR. ENRILE. Okay.
So, pagka ganyan ang
sitwasyon na may backlog, OIC puwedeng i-appoint ng chief minister?

Halimbawa, sasabihin na may bayan na walang hepe, walang
chief of police. Sasabihin niya binigay ko na sa ano iyong appointment
ninyo hindi pa naaksyunan, OIC ka muna. Puwedeng gawin ng chief
minister iyon?
MR. ENRILE. Hindi po ako sigurado diyan sa sagot na iyan.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, may I?
SEN. RECTO.
Alam ko rin iyong solusyon lang doon sa mga
problemang iyan. What I am saying is that, with regard to this issue,

its an important issue where there is a difference from everything that
you read. The chief minister sits in this Napolcom unlike any other in
152

CODES
Caturla
III-3
June 2, 2015
1:39 p.m.
9
the country.
And weve never tested any of those provisions were
mentioning in this case.

You know, to me, all of this could be an afterthought. But during
the negotiations, not all of that has been disclosed to them. So, these
are areas during the implementation that you will have sticky points
later on. Pero okay lang iyon basta nag-uusap at hindi nagbabarilan.
Okay. So, naintindihan ko rin iyon.
The simple solution to many of these issues at kulang na kulang
naman talaga tayo as far as the police is concerned, dagdagan ang
police sa buong Pilipinas at lalot higit sa ARMM dahil napakaraming
baril doon.
But you know, there is a reason why they included this in the
agreement, why its part of your decommissioning.
Thats why we
have to look at the BBL together with the lens of the comprehensive
agreement as well.
Katulad niyan magkaka-election, hawak pa rin nila iyong mga
armas nila.
Prior to that, binigyan pa natin ng pera.
May pera na, may armas pa.
So ano iyon?
Isang bilyun ang ibibigay natin,
Magkano pa iyong natirang pera ng ARMM naman? Thats why I want

to see the financial statement.
Dagdag pa iyon kung may natiracpc
153
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
1
SEN. RECTO. dagdag pa iyon kung may natira, di ba? So,

Mr. Chairman, those are some of the points.
Clearly, I think the data
that is being requested will help clarify exactly what the situation is.
But the reason we asked you, Usec Enrile, to come and join us is
because we are trying to clarify the relationship again between the
Bangsamoro Police and Crame, essentially, Chief, PNP and the entire
chain of command under him.
And the question that I always come
back to, an order that is given by the chief minister to a member of the
Bangsamoro Police, can it be countermanded by the Chief, PNP?
SEN. ESCUDERO. May I address it to Usec Enrile.
Usec Bacani, you have
something to add?
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, Secretary Bacani already gave
us his position earlier. I want to hear from the DILG.
Yeah.
Halimbawa, sinabi
ng chief minister, O, habulin mo iyan. May ginawang krimen iyan.

Sinabi ng Chief, PNP, Hindi. Hindi iyan ang dapat habulin. Iba.
Sino ang masusunod?
154
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
2
MR. ENRILE. Ang pagkaintindi ko ho doon sa sinasabing control

and supervision of the chief minister over the Bangsamoro Police po is
akin to that right now of being exercised also by the local executive po.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No, no, no, no. It is very
clear.
I was governor for nine years.
I can ask my PD, I can ask
assistance from the RD, but I cannot order any policeman to do

anything. And if his superior officer, not even a PD, if they, lets say,
pangkaraniwan na pulis, sinasabi ko, Posasan mo iyan. Arestuhin mo
iyan.
At sinabi ng kanyang superior commander, Hindi mo dapat
gawin iyan, hindi ako susundin kahit governor ako. We do not have
that kind of control. We are not part of the chain of command. It is
not akin to local executives powers. I keep hearing that and I keep
bristling and hearing that kasi hindi totoo iyan.
That is not how it
works on the ground.

Of course, once again, malapit ang coordination namin kasi ang
law enforcement, ang peace and order sa amin, hindi magiging
maganda
kung
hindi
Nagtutulungan kami.
maganda
ang
relasyon
namin
sa
Tinutulungan kami, tinutulungan namin.
police.
Pero
hindi kaya ng isang governor, ng isang city mayor, ng isang mayor, ng

kahit na anong elected official in the local government na orderan ang
isang pulis.
At kung sabihin ng superior officer ng pulis na iyon na,
155
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
3
Huwag mong susundin si mayor, si governor, hindi niya puwedeng

sundin.
Susundin niya iyong superior officer niya.
experience but Im happy.
Thats just from
You ask any police commander whether
that is the case and Im sure he will validate that situation that Im
describing to you.
SEN. RECTO. Again, ito, ha. The relationship of that regional
government or in this case, the chief minister and the governor of a
province
MR. ENRILE. And the governor of a province?
SEN. RECTO. Yes.
MR. ENRILE. Of Bangsamoro po?
SEN. RECTO. No. Of the province nga, of an LGU. Okay. You
know, it defines the relationship also. Sino ang mas mataas, the chief
minister o iyong governor? Sino ang pakikinggan ng pulis?
MR. ENRILE. Kapag
SEN. RECTO. Pagka iba ang order ni governor in his locality at
order ni chief minister, sino ang pakikinggan?
MR. ENRILE.
Chief minister po.
Mukhang ganoon po ang
lumalabas.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Is that in the draft bill, sir?
156
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
4
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. It is essentially that

because in the draft bill, the commander of the Bangsamoro Police, the
operational control of the Bangsamoro Police is exercised by the chief
minister. And it does not mention the relationship of the Bangsamoro
Police to the rest of the PNP, to Crame, specifically. Kaya nga namin
tinatanong ito dahil hindi nga maliwanag.
What are the powers
ngayon ng
MR. ENRILE. Pero we were made to understand that the power
nga po of the chief minister is akin to that of a local government
official po exercising also operational supervision and control.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). No. But local executives do
not exercise operational control.
Whereas, in the draft BBL, it
specifically states that the chief minister exercises operational control.

MR. ENRILE. Sa PNP Law po kasi, under 6975, nakalagay rin
po operational control.
Pero in any case po, ang nakalagay rin dito
sa
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). We are talking about direct
orders here.
MR. ENRILE. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). You can see the reason of
the existence of the PNP, kaya ginawa ang PNP, tinanggal ang local
157
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
5
police, dahil ang nangyayari sa local police, nagiging private army ng

nakaupo na sinuman, mayor, governor, whatever, kaya ginawa under.
Ngayon, ang pangamba ngayon ay ganoon din ang mangyayari
sa Bangsamoro Police, magiging private army ng chief minister. Iyon
ang nais nating iwasan. Kaya natin nililiwanag kung ano ba talaga ang
relasyon.
And it all boils down to sino ang susundin ng police.
Halimbawa, to bring back the point that was being discussed by

Senator Recto, pagka election, iyong MILF armado pa, ano ang
gagawin, tapos sinabi gun ban, sino ang iba-ban?
Iyong pulis
puwedeng magdala ng baril pagka may gun ban sa election?

MR. ENRILE.
Ang understanding rin po dito is that the
Bangsamoro Police still remains part of the PNP. So, in that case, that
the PNP chief, I submit that the PNP can countermand po.
We know that that is the
concept.
MR. ENRILE. Yes, sir.
ground?
Simple nga lang iyong sagot ko.
How does it work on the

Ito iyong governor, ito
iyong hepe. Sinabi ng governor o mayor, Ito ang gawin mo. Sinabi
ng hepe, Huwag mong gawin. Maliwanag iyon sa local government,
hindi nila gagawin. Hindi nga maliwanag sa Bangsamoro Police kung
158
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
6
ganoon din ang sitwasyon. Iyon ang nililiwanag namin dito. That is
what we are trying to clarify. The specific situation that was posited by
Senator Recto is pag election.
Di may gun ban.
Ang pulis ba
makakapagsukbit pa rin ng baril? May armalite sila sa kotse, mayroon

silang Glock dito sa belt nila o hindi na puwede?
MR. ENRILE. Ang pangyayari po kasi noon, ang understanding
namin nga po is thats part of the PNP. And they will still be subject to
all the directives from Camp Crame. One chain of command po. So,
even the licensing of gun will still come from Camp Crame.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah. But if youre talking
about 40,000 na mahahaba na high-powered weapons, alam naman
natin na ang hawak nila ay hanggang mga Barrett na 50-caliber ang
hawak nila.
You know, that is we are talking about an entirely
different class of weaponry.

MR. ENRILE. Yeah. Iyong regarding po sa naitanong nyo po
regarding sa specific relations between the Bangsamoro Police and the
PNP, ang submission po namin nga talaga is part of the PNP.
Pero
regarding the specifics or regarding the relationship between the chief

minister over the Bangsamoro Police, maybe we leave it to the wisdom
of the Senate to define exactly po iyong ano.
159
COMMITTEE
ON
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
JOINT
WITH
CODES
Mancol
IV-3
June 2, 2015
1:49 p.m.
7
What you were saying, it
hasnt been clarified, and thats why were going around and around on
this discussion.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Mr. Chairman, just two things.
One, in relation to local government units, iyong mayor,
governor, anong relation ng chief minister sa kapangyarihan ng mayor
o ng governor?
Because as we discussed earlier before you arrived,
Usec Enrile, this is an additional layer. So, may dati nang binibigay na
poder, binanggit nyo po kanina na pareho iyong salitang ginamit, di
ba?
Operational control and supervision.
Pareho iyong salitang
ginamit for. . . (nam)
160

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
1
SEN. ESCUDERO.
...Pareho iyong salitang ginamit for the
mayor, governor at chief minister. What if there is a conflict?

MR. ENRILE.
Conflict betweenKindly repeat, Your Honor?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Between the powers exercised by the chief
minister on the one hand, and by a local government chief executive

on the other.
MR. ENRILE.
Within the Bangsamoro region?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Of course. Hindi sa labas siyempre. Wala
namang kapangyarihan ang chief minister sa labas. What will happen

then if they were given the same powers, as you said earlier?
MR. ENRILE.
Ang pagkaintindi ko po dito sa the wayI think
what is different here in the BangsamoroI stand correctedbut the

way Ive read it is that more po angthe powers more of the control
and supervision over the Bangsamoro police really lies more with the
chief minister.
And then iyong mga governors and the city mayors,
they will reallymedyo po nawala iyong powers nila.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. ENRILE.
So, tatanggalin natin sa kanila iyon?
Oo.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Usec, the reason why Im asking the DILG
and not you is because thats precisely the point of this whole exercise.
You have totally different interpretations of the same draft law. You
161

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
2
entered into an agreement with the certain objective and interpretation

and these are the people who will implement it. You have to forgive
me.
Thats why I was preempting Secretary Bacani a while ago
because you should have done this. You should have talked about this
beforebecause youre coming to us as government, presumably with
a united stand.
No talking, kayo naman. [Laughter] No copying.
No. I mean, you have to understand, sir, where we are coming
from.
And also, Usec Enrile, we have not yet received anyI have
heard the phrase your interpretation, your interpretation about 10

times. Is this the official position? Is your interpretation the official
position of the DILG? Because we dont have a position paper yet.
MR. ENRILE.
po ang DILG.
Admittedly po, wala pang official position paper
I dont know if we have been officially requested a
position paper.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
I believe so.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Well, Mr. Trovela had a
No, but this is addressed to the House, not
to Senator Marcos.
As has been pointed out,
actually the covers here is addressed to Honorable Rufus Rodriguez
162

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
3
and none of the signatories have actually signed. But it was handed to
us purportedly being the position paper of the DILG.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Sir, do you have one? Does the DILG have
an official position
MR. ENRILE.
A signed copy po? I will look for it po. I think
For further clarity, Im
reading it now. It is the joint position paper on matters that concern

the Department of National Defense, Department of Interior and Local
Government,
National
Security
Council,
Armed
Forces
of
Philippines and the Philippine National Police relative to BBL.
the
And
having read through it, it essentially deals with police matters.

MR. ENRILE.
Yes, sir.

MR. ENRILE.
I have seen that po.

MR. ENRILE.
Have you seen this?
Okay.
And basically, it supports the BBL. And that was,
I think, submitted to Malacaang. That was submittedIm sorryto

the House of Representatives.
I will get a signed copy po of that position paper.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Sir, may I ask?
Again, the answers you
gave to our questions, you prefaced it with the statement to your
163

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
4
mind or your opinion. It is not here. May I ask if everything youve

said to the Committee is your personal opinion or does that bind the
agency that youre representing this afternoon? Its okay either way,
sir. We just want to be clarified.
MR. ENRILE.
Yes. Admittedly po, these are my own opinions,
my own interpretations.
Fair enough. So, we will
be waiting for one rather than a signed copy of this Houseyour

submission to the House. We would like an official position paper from
the DILG.
And similar to this, of course, a great dealalthough not
necessarily just that, we have administration matters to talk about in

terms of the opt-in provisions, things like that.
But on the police
side, perhaps we can break up the subject matter into the police side
and then to the administration side which Mr. Trovela, I think, will be
able to answer more authoritatively.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Mr. Chairman, may I ask the committee
secretary to kindly communicate, not only with the DILG, but other
agencies we invite. Its okay for the head of agency not to attend for
as long as the persons they will be sending are clothed with authority
to bind the agency.
164

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
5
Because, Usec Enrile, I sympathize with you and I agree with the
things youre saying.
My problem is, your department might have a
different thinking. As a lawyerare you a lawyer, Usec?

MR. ENRILE.
[Nodded]
SEN. ESCUDERO.
As a lawyer, you may be interpreting it
correctly indeed but your department might have a different theory of

it. So, I would want to hear the opinion of the department officially,
whether its the same as OPAPP, GPH; whether its different because it
will come a lot of nerves, quite frankly. If what you have told us is the
official position, it may come some nerves. But it has to be the official
position of the DILG and not the opinion of a fellow lawyer, for
example, on how the BBL will be interpreted.
I also apologize to Usec Lorena because the objective was really
to find out how they were perceiving it and perhaps to highlight the
fact that there is a need to clarify some provisions to avoid confusion.
Thank you, Usec Enrile. Thank you, Usec Lorena.
Okay.
I think that we
have gone as far as we can go with that subject. So, well move on
now to the subject of taxation and finance. The commissioner of the
BIR has been sitting here patiently.
And in four hours that she has
been here, there have been millions in uncollected taxes. [Laughter]
165

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
6
Im sorry, billions in uncollected taxes.
So, to avoid that situation,
maybe its time to go to ask the commissioner, Commissioner Kim

Henares, to give the position of the BIR.
So, Commissioner Kim Henares, please. You have the floor.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES.
Yes, sir.
We have an initial position but when the negotiation for the

Bangsamoro Framework Agreement was going on, of course, there are
give and take.
So, there was much toeven if we dont like itwe
have to give something. So, our initial position is tax administration

and tax collection is in itself very difficult.
So, we, as much as
possible, dont want to have silos. So, we want to be able to collect

from the whole country and get data from the whole country because it
affects one another. But we were told that we have to give something
as far as taxing power is concerned. So, our position is the one that
we agreed upon in the framework agreement which was not reflected
in the draft BBL. Because in the framework agreement, our agreement
is that for four taxes provided, all the taxing elements are in the
Bangsamoro area. They can collect it. This is the capital gains tax,
the estate tax, the donors tax and the documentary stamp tax. But
all other taxes, they cannot touch. But if they want to add to it, they
can.
So, if the corporate tax is 30, they want to collect additional
166

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
7
corporate tax of five, they can do that. But they cannot touch the 30.
And that one is going to be collected by the Bureau of Internal
Revenue.
So, thats basically the agreement we have in the
Bangsamoro Framework Agreement, which is not reflected correctly or

properly in the bill.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
So, all the other taxes after estate tax in the
enumeration, you did not agree to it?

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Yes, we did not agree to the other
A, capital gains; B, doc stamps; C, donors
tax; D, estate tax. Iyon lang po? You only agreed to those four?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
The four.
Just for the record, Mr. Chairman.
You did not agree to income tax levied on banks and other
financial institutions?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
No, sir.
You did not agree on registration fees of
vessels?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Sir, thats not a tax.
The toll is neither taxes, fees, charges on
agriculture, aquatic products, except sold by marginal farmers or fisher

folks?
167

CODES
JLFLORES
V-3
June 2, 2015
1:59 p.m.
8
Yes. We cannot agree to that. The
excise tax on those not in the NIRC .../jlf
168

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
1
not in the NIRC. Like we said, if
its not covered by NIRC, you can tax it.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
So okay lang iyon.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Yes, sir.
Countryside, barangay enterprises, arent
these exempt?
Not registered within the magna
carta
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Not registered. Sorry.
You did not agree to this either?

Yeah.
Because the agreement is,
these four, you collect and the national government will not collect.
Anything aside from these four, national government will collect, but
you can impose on top of the national government.
The imposition of an
additional percentage in the tax will not go to the national government.

No.
It will go to the local
government, to the regional government.

So the incremental tax that they impose will behow does the
collection work?
169

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
2
We will not collect it for them. They
will collect it themselves.

So you will collect the 30
percent. And if they impose an additional 5 percent, they will collect

that?
Yes. They have to have their own
infrastructure to collect that.

Okay.
That seems a
little
No.
Because under the Local
Government Code, you can imposeactually, they want to impose a

tax.
So we said, Theres nothing to prevent you.
But you cannot
touch whats the national government is already collecting.
If you
want to have more, you can impose it. We dont have any problem.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Now, insofar as capital gains tax is
concerned, wala na kayong makukuha mula doon, in the BBL area?

Ang agreement ho, provided all
taxing elements are in the BBL, so that means the buyer, the seller,
the land are under the jurisdiction of the
SEN. ESCUDERO.
What do you mean by theof course, the
seller
170

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
3
Because, lets say, the seller is from
Manila, the buyer is from BBL, the land is in BBL, then they cannot
collect that because thats the national government
SEN. ESCUDERO.
If the land is not in the BBL, clearly, wala na
agad iyon?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Wala rin ho.
Kahit na iyong buyer at seller wala na
iyon?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Wala rin ho.
So if either the seller or buyer is residing
outside of the BBL area, hindi na nila puwedeng kolektahin iyon?

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Hindi rin ho.
Is that explicit in the bill?
Hindi nga ho. Its just not reflect it
kasi the bill state it differently.

The bill saidit seems like if all elements are within the
Bangsamoro, there can be two entities that will tax it. Thats in page
76, first paragraph.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Youre talking about capital gains?
Yes, sir.
Because theres an
enumeration, then theres a paragraph, where all taxable elements
171

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
4
are within the Bangsamoro territory, taxes under letter (a) to (d)
above shall no longer be imposed by the BIR.
But the way its written, if its all within the territory, we will not
impose it.
If theres an element thats not there, it seems to mean
that two people can tax it at the same time, the BIR and the
Bangsamoro which is not the intention.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Not only that, maam. If you cannot tax it
anymore unless they pass a law, is that the only time they can tax it?
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Thats not clear, sir.
But with the way its worded, that would
seem to be the case.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
That would seem to be the case.
You cannot tax it anymore, so unless the
BBL taxes it.

The way the draft law is
written, it would seem to indicate that where all taxable elements are
within the Bangsamoro, all the (a) to (d) above shall no longer be
imposed
by
government.
the
Bureau
of
Internal
Revenue
of
the
central
And therefore, that would imply that it is the
Bangsamoro government that will be collecting those taxes.
172

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
5
Sir, thats my problem with this bill,
everything is implied.
Again, can you provide us
some clarity on this Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board?

I have no idea what that is.
Usecs Lorena and Bacani,
where does it explain the organization of the Intergovernmental Fiscal

Policy Board?
MR. BACANI.
Your Honor, its under Section 35 of Article XII.
Intergovernment. There
is hereby created an Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board that shall

address revenue imbalances and fluctuations in regional financial
needs and revenue raising capacity of the Bangsamoro.
Once again, the language is a little bitshall we say, causes
some alarm because Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board is now
negotiating with the BIR. That would seem to be what their function
is.
I have a major objection to that.
Because tax law is passed by the legislature and our function is to

implement.
173

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
6
So if the law is clear, how will I negotiate? I mean, how can we

negotiate a law?
The law is either you are subject or you are not.
How we will negotiate?

not clear.
Again, even the function is
I am not sure I understand the definition of a so-called
revenue imbalance and fluctuations in regional financial needs.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
MR. LORENA.
What do you mean by this, Usec, Secretary?
With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, this was the
billdraft law was crafted by the Bangsamoro Transition Commission

which was notbut it is also provided for
But you negotiated the
elements of the
MR. LORENA.
No.
I was referring because the Chair said they
were the one who, in the CAB, included this.

Pero, hindi ba, noong
sinusulat ninyo ito, ipinropose (propose) ng MILF panel, pagka

nagkaproblema
between
BIR
and
local,
let
us
create
this
Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board para makipagI dont know

negotiate, compromise, whatever, makipagdiskusyon.
MR. BACANI.
Just to clarify, Your Honor.
174

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
7
Basically, mayroong Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board.

First, whole picture muna. Revenues and expenditures. Ano ba ang
nangyayari sa Bangsamoro?
Where are the revenues coming from?
Internally-generated coming from national government, etcetera.

Ito naman iyong expenditure profile.
Macro muna. Iyong dito in terms of tax issue, what it addresses,
not all taxable elements are within the Bangsamoro.
Basically,
binanggit
BIR
nga
magkokolekta.
kanina
that
its
assumed
na
iyong
ang
If not all of the taxable elements are within the
Bangsamoro, BIR ang magkokolekta.

Theoretically, puwedeng pag-usapan, mayroon bang share ang
ano diyanmga ganung issue. Were not discounting
We are in another gray
area where there seems to be a difference in interpretation. But the

Commissioner is saying that she does not have any room for
interpretation when the law is clear.
So, again, what will the Intergovernmental Fiscal Policy Board
do?
If lets say, it should not be us who
should tax it, the remedy of the taxpayer is to go to the Court of Tax
175

CODES
CMNERY
VI-3
June 2, 2015
2:09 p.m.
8
Appeal not for me to negotiate with somebody because thatswere

implementing the law.
Secondly, if you read the law sharing everything we will collect
from Bangsamoro will all go to them, what sharing do we have to
discuss? Everything is going to them.
The taxation policy that is
being written into the law is that the sharing is very, very different
from that of other local government units. And since it is a blanket
its not actually sharing any longer.
It redounds to the Bangsamoro
government.
Again, Im trying to nail down/cmn
176

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
1
Again, Im trying to nail
down the function of this board. First of all, the existence of the board
is not clear what it is there for.
Maybe, Ms. Rodriguez, I know you did a very thorough study
especially this area of the draft BBL, is there something you can
enlighten us with?
MS. RODRIGUEZ.
Okay. The intent really is to give the four
taxes, namely the capital gains tax, documentary stamp tax, estate tax
and donors tax to the Bangsamoro Automous Region where all taxable
elements are within the Bangsamoro.
that.
and
So theres no question about
But problem will arise when there are taxable elements within
outside
the
Bangsamoro.
So,
for
example,
am
from
Bangsamoro. I sold my property, one in Makati, one in Bangsamoro.

So the intent was the one located in Bangsamoro, that will go to the
Bangsamoro. But the one
You are a resident of
Bangsamoro or youre a resident of somewhere else?

MS. RODRIGUEZ. Resident of Bangsamoro.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So all the taxable elements
in that case areyou presumably sold it to another resident or
inhabitant of Bangsamoro.
177

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
2
MS. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. In Bangsamoro.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So walang question iyon.
I think the function of this is to do more with thosethat there is
a question when a taxable element is outside of the Bangsamoro, am I
correct?
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes, sir.
I think thats what Ive
been hearing.
Yes, sir, but thats a matter of
evidence.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And the BIRs position, as
stated by the Commissioner, is that as long as there is a taxable
element outside the Bangsamoro
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. The BIR will collect.
the tax will be collected
by BIR.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So anong trabaho ngayon
balik na naman tayo doon sa tanong.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. May iba ho siyang trabaho.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Anong trabaho nitong
178

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
3
SEN. ESCUDERO. In addition kung ano ang trabahoSecretary

Bacani, can you also tell us sinu-sino ho ba talaga ang bubuo nito?
Dahil nilagay po ninyo appropriate ministries in the Bangsamoro,
Secretary of Finance, and such other officials as may beI mean, we
cannot do that.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thats too vague.
SEN. ESCUDERO. We have to specify how many and who.
MR. BACANI.
The way we are visualizing it, there will be a
permanent secretariat. It doesnt have to be a permanent body, it will

be composed of anybody, dependingI think ang magiging key
personalities dito in terms of the central government, finance at saka
DBM. Sa Bangsamoro, the corresponding counterparts.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, DBM is not mentioned.
MR. BACANI. Hindi, and such other officials
SEN. ESCUDERO.
But if they are necessaryMeaning, thats
why we want
So, I think, essentially
there are two questions here that are before us.
One, who are the
members of that board and what do they do? What is their function?
MR. BACANI.
Theyre listed from A to F, in terms of the
functions of the intergovernmental fiscal policy board.
If you would
179

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
4
prefer to have specific positions, what I would recommend would be

somebody from the Finance department, can be the secretary or
representative, and a secretary of DBM.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, because as it is, the IRR, whoever who
will draft if, will be the one to define who this will be. Id rather that
we place it in the law. What was in your mind when you crafted this
body? Sino ho si appropriate?
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). And to pursue the question
of function, you said earlier that this will essentially be concerned when
there is a taxable element outside of Bangsamoro, iyon ang paguusapan together with the BIR. Whereas the Commissioner has made
it very clear that their position is that once there is a taxable element
outside Bangsamoro, it is collected by the BIR. So how do we resolve
that?
MR. BACANI. Thats just one among many functions.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Okay. Lets talk about that
particular function. How do we resolve that?
MR. BACANI.
Wala pa.
Thats why theres a mechanism in
case theres any dispute between the national government and the
Bangsamoro government, doon pag-usapan. Iyon ang maging venue
rather than filing already some protest or judicial action, puwedeng
180

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
5
pag-usapan doon iyongIn fact, itong ano, when we talk about these
four taxes, for the first 10 years its academic.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah. Okay.
MR. BACANI. Because everything will go anyway to the
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, theres a difference, it will go to BBL but,
correct me if Im wrong, the BIR will still collect it or no, kayo na
magkokolekta ng lahat?
MR. BACANI.
When all taxable elements are within the
Bangsamoro, nakalagay dito, then it will no longer be collected by the

national BIR, but the local BIR. Thats what is stated here, and thats
the intention.
Yes, Commissioner Kim
Henares.
Sir, our very initial position is the
BIR should collect everything in the National Internal Revenue Code.

Now, how you want to give it to whoever, thats really an independent
issue. Because if you read the intergovernmental fiscal policy board,
theyre more concerned about from this capital gain, Bangsamoro
should get everything.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes.
181

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
6
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. But for tax administration, thats not

the issue.
The issue is if youre taxpayer, who should you go to.
Should you go to the BIR?
Because remember when its none, you
have to get a certificate authorizing registration from the BIR before

the LRA or Register of Deed can register that property. If its shares of
stock, you have to get from the Bureau of Internal Revenue a
certificate authorizing registration that says all taxes has been paid so
corporate secretary, you can go ahead and issue a new shares of
stocks.
Theres two aspects. Iyong sharing, actually sharing is not my
problem because all we do lang naman is collect data, give it to DBM,
DBM will allocate.
But iyong problema ho namin iyong act ng saan
magbabayad, sinong magbibigay ng clearance, sinong mag-o-audit,

iyon ho yung
Points well-taken.
Kasi
iyong sharing is something that you already do as a matter of course

in terms of the IRA.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So maliwanag na iyon kung
papaanong gagawin.
But the actual collection, which in your
182

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
7
interpretation, Commissioner, is your mandate. So the question that

immediately pops up is, how will this work?
So if all the taxable elements are within Bangsamoro, you will
have a BIR office, doon pupunta iyong magbabayad ng buwis?
MR. BACANI.
treasurer
There will be a Bangsamoro tax office or a
of the Bangsamoro
who is responsible
for
collecting
Bangsamoro taxes as well as these four taxes as long as all of the

taxable elements are within the Bangsamoro.
The only idea here is, again, we know its for the future, since
they are very close to the local situation, they know who dies, they
know who has property, they know saan ba iyong mga estate taxes
Usec, all the LGUs know
that themselves. Whats the difference?

Every mayor, every mayors office, every office of the provincial
governor knows all of that. We know that.
MR. BACANI. Pero iyong
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). The Bangsamoro is not the
only body that has that. In fact, even without the Bangsamoro, you
ask your mayors and your governors, they know that already.
We
dont need the Bangsamoro to report
183

CODES
CBGealan
VII-3
June 2, 2015
2:19 p.m.
8
MR. BACANI. But mayroon hong incentive. If they can collect

that, hundred percent of that goes to them.
So theres a built-in
incentive for them to collect more because hundred percent of it will go

to them as compared to the other LGUsso they get a share.
So whats the difference
with the incentive to the LGUs to collect more for themselves even if
its only a share?
MR. BACANI. Its not as good as an incentive, Your Honor, as a
hundred percent.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thats why the incentive in
the collection of real estate taxes is the biggest incentive that any local
government has because iyon lang ang pera nila. Iyon lang ang pondo
nila. So that incentive, again, is not singular to the Bangsamoro. Why
do we still have this? Why are we applying this? It already exists with
all LGUs.
Theres nothing new here.
Why are we organizing a new
entity/cbg
184

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
1
Why are we organizing a
new entity, a new system in addition to what already exists and seems
to be working, again, not perfectly but, at least, reasonably well?
MR. BACANI.
I think it can be more efficient in terms of
collecting those four taxes, in terms of increasing the total tax

collection. Because hundred percent of it will go to them compared to
the other LGUs wherein theres only a share of the LGU.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Madam Commissioner, all of these pertain
to transfer of real property in general; donors tax, puwede ring

personal property. But in general, donors tax, estate tax, doc stamp
and capital gains.
When we were discussing it, the
subject matter, is really dealing with real property.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Real property.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
The shares of stock.
Although its possible to cover personal
property.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes. But really, it can cover shares
of stock.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Now, unless they pay, you will not issue the
CAR?
185

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
2
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Yes.
Its only applicable for shares of stock and
real estate because for personal property like a cellphone, watch

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Bank account too.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
No. Bank account, you need
Yes.
So hindi rin naman maililipat, hindi ba,
unless may CAR?

MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes. Pero if this one is now going to
be with them, were not going to issue CAR for that. They will have to
issue their own CAR.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Thats my whole point, sir.
The incentive
might not be necessary because they cannot transfer it anyway. And

even if they transfer it 10 years after the death or declare the donation
20 years after the actual donation, they will still have to show proof of
payment before ownership can be fully transferred to the donee or to
the heir. So at some point, they have to pay.
So is it a matter of getting their share or is it a matter of
providing an incentive to collect?
Because if that is the point, then
lets let BIR collect it and simply state that all cap gains, doc stamps,
donors tax, estate taxes arising from, assuming all of the
elements
186

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
3
are in the BBL area, will be for your account.

MR. BACANI.
I can only cite two items, Your Honor: First is
the incentive to collect; second, I think thats part of capability

building. We realized its long-term and tax is a complicated issue.
If
you cannot collect even four taxes

But if its a complicated
issue, which I agree with, bakit 100 percent kaagad?

MR. BACANI. Iyong apat lang po.
Grade 1 pa lang, bibigyan
mo na ng malaking responsibilidad.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, hindi nga apat.
Apat lang ho iyong
pinayagan ng BIR.
Iyong PhD nahihirapan,
iyong Grade 1, bibigay niyo na lahat. Which brings me back actually to

the concept and the question that was raised earlier. All of the roads,
bridges, and infrastructure will be paid for by national government.
So why is it that you have 100 percent tax collection all for
Bangsamoro? What will that be used for kasi ang magbabayad naman
ng mga infrastructure, services also, will be paid for by the national
government.
Why do you have to have 100 percent? The LGUs get by, okay.
187

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
4
Hirap pero they get by with the share that they receive from the IRA,
the 40 percent share of IRA.
How is the Bangsamoro situationthe
IRA pays for barangay roads, pays for municipal and city roads? That
comes from the national government. Then in the Bangsamoro, all of
those elements will still be paid for by the [national] government, the
IRA of the local governments.
So why does Bangsamoro need a hundred percent of its
collections when all of the elements of infrastructure and services are
being paid for already by the national government? We collect taxes
so that we have money. We in government, collect taxes so we have
money
to
provide
infrastructure
development,
provide
services,
etcetera. Just the general concept of governance, okay.

Twenty-four billion is already being given from the national
government.
The IRAs of the local governments are already being
given by the national government.

What is the additional cost to the Bangsamoro government that
they need 100 percent share of all collected taxes in Bangsamoro?
MR. BACANI. May I answer that, Your Honor?
Again, I know its just looking into the future.
hardly
any
exploration,
development
and
Today, there is
utilization
of
natural
resources because of the security situation, because of the peace and
188

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
5
order problem. Regardless of what share you have, whether its 70

percent, 100 percent, if its a percent of zero, its still zero. The hope
is that zero
When things become more normal that there would be some big
development in terms of the exploration, development and utilization
of natural resources, more specifically metallic minerals and fossil fuel,
were hoping that at some point again, I know its not immediate, not
medium-term, probably, long-termthat at some point there will be
substantial development. Because there are also particular provisions
in the agreement that they can be deducted from the block grant
because the idea here, at some point, is to be self-sufficient.
Because
thats what real autonomy is, both political and fiscal autonomy.
Dito sa block grant, any sharing of the Bangsamoro in the
resources generated will be deducted from the block grant after four
years. Thats very important provision because that shows the intent
to be, at some point, not dependent on the national government.
The hope is that at some point in the not very long-term, that
whatever Bangsamoro needs for its constituents, it can raise the
money by itself from the revenues generated, from resources as well
as any other revenues that can be sourced both internally and
externally.
189

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
6

the situation with local government.
To bring it back again to
Local government has a 30
percent share in all the mining revenues
collected in large-scale
mining revenues that are collected in their area. The 30 percent share
is actually remitted after three years pa.
Whats the difference in that situation and the Bangsamoro?
MR. BACANI. They have an increased share, Your Honor.
increased share.
I know they have an
But why are we giving them an increased share?
Why is their share different? Never mind increase or decrease but why
is it different from the share of a regular LGU?
MR. BACANI.
There is no prohibition for us, Your Honor, to
increase the shares of the local government units even today. If we

want to increase it
I know.
But the fact is
that mining revenues are at 30 percent to the local government units,

remitted after three years. That is the law.
So why is it different in Bangsamoro that you should have 100
percent share?
MR. BACANI. No, its not
Im sorry. That the share
190

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
7
of national is 70
MR. BACANI. Seventy-five for metallic resources, Your Honor.
Yes.
Why is it different?
If you mine copper in any province, they get 30 percent of the

revenues; nickel, the same thing. I know youve seen it.
But what is the difference between Bangsamoro government and
other LGUs that:
No. 1, you must retain 100 percent of your tax
collection; and No. 2, that you should have 75 percent share in the
share of national wealth?
MR. BACANI. Okay. First in the Republic Act 9054, the sharing
between the ARMM and the national government is 70-30 as opposed
to the normal 60-40, 40 percent being local, which is the reverse.
What we did in the Bangsamoro Basic Law is we improved the sharing
in terms of metallic resources from 70 to 75 percent.
I realized it doesnt answer the prior question because there was
a basis for the 70. Basically, I guess, its the resources. Theres a lot
of history, Your Honor, in terms of why the percent for the ARMM is
higher compared to the other local government. I think that has been
recognized before even in the ARMM.
We are just continuing that
acknowledgement.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, papaikliin ko ho iyong problema niyo.
191

CODES
JTBCadaing
VIII-3
June 2, 2015
2:29 p.m.
8
Basically, you had to offer something better.

MR. BACANI.
Basically, kasama iyon, iyong we improved it
from 70 to 75 percent. At the same time, we clarified the provisions.

Before we were talking of strategic and non-strategic minerals, that
can really be confusing.
We clarified it here in the proposed
Bangsamoro Basic Law. Basta metallic minerals/jbc
192

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
1
MR. BACANI.
Basta metallic mineral, 75-25; fossil fuel, 50-
50. Wala nang strategic or nonstrategic. Its clearer because its one
of the remaining issues in the final peace agreement, Your Honor, in
terms of the dispute between strategic and nonstrategic.
SEN. ESCUDERO. Siguro po ang tanong lang kaninaif you can
just submit that to ussaan galing iyong 75? Fine, its higher than 70.
But for that matter, why not 80, why not 85, why settle at 75?
mean, its an arbitrary amount, I guess.

MR. BACANI. Yes, Your Honor. And its part of the negotiation
process.
From 70, I guess if both can agree on something like
improvement to 75, thats what came about, Your Honor.

SEN. ESCUDERO.
Commissioner Henares, maam, magkano po
ba itong capital gains tax, doc stamps, donors tax, estate tax, do you
have a figure, if all the elements are in the BBL area?
MR. BACANI. About less than 30 million per year.
SEN. ESCUDERO.
Kung maliit lang po iyon, puwede bang
idagdag na lang namin sa block grant iyon at ng wala nang confusion.

Because, sir, Im trying to simplify it. Just to avoid the confusion. If
you are talking of capacity building, they can impose local taxes on top
of whatever an LGU can impose under the Local Government Code. So
you have capacity building there already. But to provide confusion in
193

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
2
the payment of certain national taxes provided for in the NIRC, I dont
think its worth 30 million.
I mean, Id rather just PROVIDE an
additional 30 millionhindi ho ba?than create this confusion. Is that

a possible compromise?
MR. BACANI.
Its a very reasonable position, Your Honor.
know the capacity building part can come from other means.
I
I
recognize iyong puwedeng ibigay na lang pero papapalitan pa ang

formula.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Oo, iyon na lang. Parang
parehong mechanism-SEN. ESCUDERO. Well just add it to the block grant.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Kokolektahin. Tapos kung
ano iyong ano, ibalik sa local government, regional government.
Ang mahirap kasing maunawaan ay bakit ang trato natin sa
pangkaraniwan na LGU ay malaking kaibahan doon sa trato natin sa
Bangsamoro government which we consider to be specialadmittedly,
as singular and special kind of LGU with lots of attendant history and
different forces. Pero mahirap maunawaan ng lahat, ng buong bansa
actually, sa labas ng Bangsamoro, Bakit iyong kanila ganyan? Parepareho naman kaming hirap, pare-pareho naman kaming naghahanap
ng pondo, pare-pareho kaming kumakayod.
Kaya napupunta iyong
194

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
3
usapan, Makipagbarilan na rin kami para ganoon na rin ang trato sa

amin. Iyan ang nagiging ending ng usapan.
MR. BACANI.
Klarong-klaro ho kasi sa Constitution natin. In
short, para hindi mahaba iyong usapan, social justice, historical

inequities, mga ganoon, I think were trying to address that.
mayroong preferential treatment.
Kanya
When we also talked about the
Magna Carta for Teachers, siyempre favorable sa teachers.
Magna
Carta for Labor, favorable sa labor.

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, favorable sa labor, sa
teachers but not at a cost to another sector.
Not to say only the
teachers from one place as opposed to the teachers from another

place.
Thats the difference that what we are talking about because
these are governments too. They are also local governments. They
also provide services.
Ano ang kaibahan?
Its very hard to get an
understandable answer. What is special? Okay, iyong social justice is

going to be achieved by throwing money at the problem. Im not sure
that it is.
MR. BACANI. Part lang po. Wala pong automatic dito. I think
the whole thing is a process. We are really talking of a journey. Iyong
end goal, it will not be overnight. Hopefully it will take less than one
generation.
But somehow we have to start the process, continue it,
195

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
4
build on it. And hopefully, at some point, well get at the end of the
journey which we all want, I think, when we talk of just peace, lasting
peace, equitable peace.
I think the fact that it is recognized in the
Constitution, two autonomous regions in the Philippines.
I think the
framers of the Constitution really acknowledged that issue. We know

the story behind all of those centuries and so on but probably wed not
go to that anymore. But I think even when you talk to the framers of
the Constitution why are those provisions there in terms of Muslim
Mindanao and the Cordilleras, parang basically theyre telling us
mayroong preference dito sa two regions in the country because of
distinct historical
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). I would disagree with the
use of the word preference. I think it is more a recognition of the
difference in culture, not a preference. I am not a lawyer. But from
what I read in the Constitution and from what discussions I had with
very good lawyers and constitutionalists is that it is a recognition of the
difference in history, in culture, in religion, in law that the Muslim
communities have from the rest of the country. So, fair enough. But I
dont think preference comes into it.
MR. BACANI. I guess it may not be the right word. But thats
why they have more powers compared to the other regions of the
196

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
5
country, they will have a higher share in the resources

may not be exactly the right word.
Preference
But I think when we talk about
asymmetrical relationship, which is being defined in terms of why they

are different, the only conclusion we have there isI dont think they
should be worse offthe natural conclusion is, they would be better off
compared to the other regions of the country. Preference may not be
exactly the right word, Your Honor. But parang mayroong more power
at saka higher sharing in the resources developed in the
SEN. ESCUDERO. Sir, I admire you for your perseverance and
patience quite frankly.
I hope with age, I will become like you too.
But having said that, sir, Im essentially suggesting a compromise

which you said was reasonable.
Instead of being a taxing, levying,
collecting power issue, were reducing it to a sharing issue without

taking anything away from the capacity building opportunities that
may be made available to the Bangsamoro government just to avoid
complications which the Commissioner herself has shared with us quite
candidly. Not that we have to decide on this now--Senator Marcos will
have many sleepless nights drafting this bill--but kindly work with us
on solutions along these lines. Because we recognize the inequities in
the past and the need to really providing the development in that area
197

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
6
but it has to be done differently from how we have done it in the past.
Iyon lang po.
MR. BACANI.
Sige po.
We are willing to continue the
engagement, Your Honor, because I think we are in this journey

together. We want to engage with you both personally and collectively
in terms of trying to refine the final BBL because, in the end, it should
be an instrument for what we all desire for.
We can work on it
together. We are very open, Your Honors, just let us know anytime,
any venue, on any issue regarding the draft law.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Certainly we will get to that
point quite soon. As this is scheduled to be the penultimate hearing,
but Im afraid that we will not get to some of the other resource
persons who have been patiently waiting close to five hours already.
And we are going to have to end the hearing soon simply because
session begins at three oclock.
Commissioner Henares wanted to add something.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes, so that I dont have to return, if
possible.
There is other paragraph that is corporation, partnership of firms
whose
central,
main
or
head
offices
are
located
outside
the
Bangsamoro but which are doing business within the territorial
198

CODES
Aliccatimbang
I-4
June 2, 2015
2:39 p.m.
7
jurisdiction by farming, developing. It said here that you should pay

your income tax in Bangsamoro.
Which is the converse of
what is applied to other corporations who have operations in other

places, they pay where their headquarters is.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes, sir. So the problem there is we
only have one consolidated income tax/alicc
199

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
1
not have
...consolidated income tax.
income tax per branch.
We do
We consolidate it to one and the
controlling is where it is registered, where its head office is registered.

So thats the problem.
Now, the other problem is, lets say that company has a farming
operation in Bangsamoro area, in Ilocos, in Bulacan, in Cebu, lets say,
the sharing is 25 percent Bangsamoro, 20, 10, 15, its more than the
other.
But if you combine the others with it, it is less.
So does it
mean that they will file their income tax return in Bangsamoro and
everything that is collected from there goes to Bangsamoro and the
others will notbecause when everything goes to Bangsamoro, the
others do not share in the IRA of that amount anymore.
We havent even yet
resolved the original problem wherein, again, corporations with

operations in other places that are headquartered in Makati...
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). ...why do they pay only in
Makati? Because, of course, the local governments in other areas say,
This is where you are extracting; this is where you are operating; this
is where you are using services of the local government, you should
pay back in terms of taxes.
200

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
2
Now, we are presented with an entirely new system again

whereperhaps either of the undersecretaries could explain that
what is the concept behind it and how it is going to be applied in terms
of the actual collection.
MR. BACANI. I have my personal opinion on that, Your Honor.
What I have openly stated was thats really more aspirational, iyong
parang ano ba, if you are making money in that area, please naman
you pay your taxes here.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thats the same
MR. BACANI.
That is the only issue there, Your Honor.
Because if you enforce

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Thats the same argument
as every other local government. Weve heard that complaint, Why is
Makati always the one collecting huge amounts of taxes when the only
thing that is in Makati is the office, when everything else is somewhere
else? You are ruining the forest; you are using the police, pero doon
kayo nagbabayad, eh wala namang ginagawa iyong Makati para doon
sa operation ninyo.
So again, its the same situation why should Bangsamoro be
treated differently.
Now, I actuallywith apologies to the CommissionerI disagree.
I dont think they should be paying in Makati. I think they should be
201

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
3
paying the local government.
But the fact is, that is the way the
system as we have now.

Commissioner, yes, please.
MS. JACINTO-HENARES. Yeah. But remember, sir, the IRA is
supposed tohindi ba, everyones income is put in a pool and the IRA
is distributed based on landmass and population?
Makati collecting, thats a local tax.
problem, thats a local tax problem.
The thing about
That is not an income tax

Its a local taxation.
So if you
look at the law, it said, The Bangsamoro can impose tax on...
So
they can impose it on the business and its going to be targeted to just
what is operating in Bangsamoro.
Because the system is not really
perfect that is why the IRA is there to balance it out. Its no longer like
before. Because we dont do branch accounting kasi if we do branch
accounting, can you just imagine, now, there are 1,000 branches of a
business, they will do 1,000 financial statements and issue 1,000
income tax returns, if we are going to do it that way. So there is a
balancing that needs to be done.
We have to help business do
business, so the IRA is the balancing thing. The local government can
actually impose based on gross revenue.
Yes, Commissioner, we
know the arguments. And thats precisely correct, that the allotment
202

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
4
thats why its called an allotmentis an attempt to equalize the shares

on another basis rather than the sites of the operations.
Well, again, Im afraid that time is pressing and we have so
many more
MR. LININDING.
Mr. Chairman, very briefly, may I be
recognized just to butt in in the discussion? Because there are some

questions that need to be addressed.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes, okay. You will be the
last
MR. LININDING.
On the questions being implied by the
honorable senators, iyong mga tanong kanina ni Senator Ralph Recto

kung ano iyong mga contribution ng Bangsamoro or the Autonomous
Region in Muslim Mindanao sa National Treasury, this is in relevance
with our concern pagdating po sa utilization ng Lake Lanao.
Four decades since 1953
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yes. I am sorry, we will get
to that. The subject of Lake Lanao is not only taxation and revenue
but...
MR. LININDING. In sharing.
THE
CHAIRMAN
(SEN.
MARCOS).
...its
actually
constitutional problem. So we will get to that. We cannot start that

debate or that discussion with less than
203

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
5
MR. LININDING.
No.
I am just implying, sir,
that iyong
sinasabi kasi na wala kaming nako-contribute sa National Treasury, if

we look at the data, iyong National Power Corporation, iyong kita lang
po nila sa anim na Agus Hydroelectric Plants noong hindi pa naprivatize and Transco at saka NGCP, kahit i-combine mo iyong actual
budget ng ARMM sa oras na iyon at saka iyong IRA ng LGU ay
sobrang-sobra po iyong nakukuha ng national government from that
six hydroelectric plants.
Now, on the question po na bakit may special preference
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Please I will explain to you
the situation of the windmills in Ilocos.
Pareho rin, it goes to the
national grid. What taxes are collected from the corporations that own
it go to the BIR, its exactly the same.
MR. LININDING. But the situation po is different.
Let us talk about another
familiar situation, the geothermal production in Leyte, all goes to the

national grid. Its exactly the same situation.
MR. LININDING. Pero marami po silang benefit. Very unique
po ang Lake Lanao. For example, if I may compare with Angat Dam or
Pulangi,
iyong
Angat
Dam
Hydroelectric,
ginawa
po
iyan
with
multipurpose, ginagamit po iyan for water, ginagamit po for irrigation

ng mga farmers na nakatira sa Bulacan.
204

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
6
In the case of Lake Lanao, ginawa po iyong dam in the middle of

the city and dinaybert (divert) po
iyongni-reverse po nila iyong
ecology ng Lake Lanao na hindi na po namin napapakinabangan ito.

So ito iyong maraming aspeto na dapat nating tingnan. Kasi may mga
injustices na kailangan ng special preference because sa mga nakalipas
na panahon ay napag-iwanan po ang mga Bangsamoro at marami
pong
batas
na
hindi
ipinaglalaban itong BBL?
naipapatupad.
Exactly,
bakit
po
natin
Isang sample lang po, ni minsan hindi po
kami nagkaroon ng regional governor na binoto ng mga tao. Dahil sa

mga nakalipas, kung sino ang manok ng Presidente, iyon po ang
nagiging regional governor.
regional governor kahit na kailan.
Well, kami, wala kaming
We have never had a regional
governor appointed by anybody or manok ng kahit na sino. We have

no regional government at all. So lamang na kayo doon.
MR. LININDING. Salamat po.
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). So at least you have that
representation that we do not have. All of Region I is Ilocano, but we
do not have Ilocano autonomous government with the regional
government.
So you know that is why this is so contentious. Because it is so
different, it is so new that the concepts that underpin all of what we
205

CODES
Jmbaisa
II-4
June 2, 2015
2:49 p.m.
7
are trying to do are something that really requires a great deal of

study and understanding so that we can operationalize it into a BBL
which will again address all of the concerns of the stakeholders
involved.
And on that note, I am afraid I would be happy to discuss this
further, at length, and it looks like we are going to have to. I am so
sorry to all of the others that have waited, all of the resource persons
that have waited, but as you can see, I think you will agree with us
that the issues are so complex and so intricate that it really will take
the time before we can turn it into a proper law which we know will be
successful.
So on that basisYes.
MR. LANTO. Mr. Chairman, I think they want us to...
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Yeah, I know. I think we
are talking too much na raw tayo dito sa hearing. So because of that,
and again time is pressing, I will have to suspend these hearings.
Ladies and gentlemen, first of all, my apologies to those who
have not been given a chance. We will make sure that you will get the
chance to put your positions forward. Those who were able to
participate... /jmb
206

CODES
Caturla
III-4
June 2, 2015
2:59 p.m.
1
THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS). Those who were able to

participate, I thank you all for your participation.
It has been most
productive and we have learned many, many things as all of these

hearings have been able to do for those of us who have to write the
law.
So, thank you all very much ladies and gentlemen.
We are suspended.
[THE HEARING WAS SUSPENDED AT 3:00 P.M.]
207

BBL IN SENATE - Hearing On The BBL With Other Sectors and Government Agencies, June 2, 2015

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

You might also like

BBL IN SENATE - Hearing On The BBL With Other Sectors and Government Agencies, June 2, 2015

Uploaded by

Document Information

Original Description:

Original Title

Copyright

Available Formats

Share this document

Share or Embed Document

Sharing Options

Did you find this document useful?

Is this content inappropriate?

Copyright:

Available Formats

BBL IN SENATE - Hearing On The BBL With Other Sectors and Government Agencies, June 2, 2015

Uploaded by

Copyright:

Available Formats

Repu blic of t h e Ph ilippin es

CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Tuesday, June 2, 2015

Sen. Ambrosio B. Padilla Room

Senate Bill No. 2408 - An Act Providing for the

Committee on Local Government

Hon. Senen Bacani

Hon. Kim Jacinto-Henares

Hon. Joji Aragon

Hon. Ma. Gloria Tango

Mr. Leocadio Trovela

Atty. Luis Catibayan

Hon. Nemesio Gako

Mr. Francisco Dakila

Atty. Teofilo Ragadio

Ms. Maria Teresita Semana

Ms. Margarita Songco

Atty. Adzlan Emran

Undersecretary, Office of the

Committee on Local Government

Mr. Drieza Lininding

Mr. Lominog Lao

Ms. Samirah Tomawis

Secretary General, Bangsamoro

Anna Leah C. Catimbang

Committee Secretary, Committee

Committee on Local Government

Ms. Cindell B. Gealan

(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

AT 10:39 A.M., HON. FERDINAND R. MARCOS

Good morning, ladies and

The hearing of the Committee on Local Government joint

with the Committee on Peace, Unification and Reconciliation and the

from OPAPP, our constant companion at these hearings, Usec

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

organization; and from the Philippine Commission on Women, the

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

chairperson Patricia Licuanan is represented by Dr. Ma. Teresita

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

already on the recordbut to explain the highlights and the salient

contained the joint position paper prepared by DILG with National

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

peace and development in the country as well as strengthen the

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

And then consistent

The statement, sir, is that the Bangsamoro

government would have the initial or primary responsibility over

COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT JOINT WITH THE

THE CHAIRMAN (SEN. MARCOS).

What does that mean

An arrangement that is similar to other local

government units, meaning, the Bangsamoro Police created under BBL

In this connection, the intergovernmental

relationsas we are proposingmechanism was provided for to ensure

Bangsamoro governments will be achieved.