20 August 2015

Phone conversation between Alissa Nirgi and Theodor Kallifatides

The following conversation between Alissa Nirgi and Theodor Kallifatides took place on August 20,
2015, during the preparations for Nirgis first solo exhibition A New Land Outside My Window at
EAA Gallery in Tallinn, Estonia through 08.09.03.10.2015.

Alissa Nirgi: My project started about a year ago when my father understood that it is no longer
safe for my grandmother, his mother, to live in the war-torn eastern part of Ukraine. So he went
and brought her to Estonia. I wanted to document the changes she would make in her room that
was waiting for her. But as the time passed I saw how unhappy she was and decided to focus on
documenting her instead and how she is so out of place and longing for home. She had been living
in the same place in Ukraine for over 70 years, it was the first time for her to move.
Then, about half a year ago I felt certain heaviness regarding this project, I felt stuck my
grandmother was not getting better nor happier and I did not know how to proceed. Laura Toots
the curator of my exhibition recommended me to read your book. I was struck how perfectly it
fitted the theme of my exhibition. When I finished the book I felt that the bittersweet stories in it
took away some of the weight of my project. It also gave me a better insight to how it is being a
stranger and I realized that my grandmother will always be one here.
All this resulted in us borrowing the title of your book A New Land Outside My Window for my
exhibition. That was one of the reasons we contacted you.
Theodor Kallifatides: Is your grandmother still here, I mean, is she still alive or has she passed
away?
AN: She is still living with my parents at their house in Tallinn.
TK: And how old is she?
AN: 78 years old.
TK: Yes, she is old. But what does she do, how do you recognize her sadness? Does she cry?
AN: She just watches out of the window. Sometimes she just sits there and does nothing, stares
into one place. And sometimes she really does cry, because she is truly longing for her home. She
also watches a lot of news to see when can she go back to Ukraine.
TK: My mother visited us in Sweden and she was also not happy here. She is usually very
talkative person, dancing and singing by herself. I wanted her to come and visit us in order to see
that we are happy here and living fine. But when she came, she was very quiet and sometimes
also just sat there. She went for a walk and got lost. We searched for her over 2 hours. I don't think
she went missing on purpose, but I think it was just very psychological she didn't want to come
back. She didn't have anyone to communicate with other than me. My wife doesn't speak Greek
and nor do our children. Of course my mother wants to speak with them but she just couldnt. And
it was not her home. I think its the age at 70 you are just too old to start getting used to things.
For example, I bought my mother a new washing machine. Before that she had a German one,
which she called her little Katrina. It broke and I bought her the new American one and she hated
it! She kept reminding me, how great her Katrina was. Thats the thing. You cant expect them to be
happy with something, which seems great to you, they are used to their things the way they are. I
also bought my mother a new bed, the old one was causing her pain, but she didn't want a new
one, she wanted her old bed back, even if it hurt!

AN: My grandmother, also my mother, father and little brother, all speak Russian and it seems that,
excluding me, they all have the ability to communicate among each other, in one language. But
strangely, when my brother is in the same room with my grandmother, only the two of them, my
brother leaves. I don't think he is doing it intentionally, but he just seems to feel very uncomfortable
and goes to another room.
TK: He does not know her. He feels that she is not happy, so he goes away. Children feel these
things.
AN: You write that one cant be a stranger, when one doesnt think of him/herself as a hero. I see
how my grandmother is acting more and more like a victim. She sees my parents as someone,
who are trying to make her miserable by keeping her from going back home. But all they want, is to
make her safe and take care of her health.
TK: She is a victim. It is not easy at her age. Young people can, to some extent, choose either to
grow in(to) a new society or to stay outside. And there are tough societies that do not give that
chance to strangers.
AN: What do you think people who are moving or being relocated should lean on? My
grandmother had a stroke this spring and after that she turned really religious. Is religion
something to lean on?
TK: I dont think she turned to be religious after the stroke, I think she was religious all the time, but
it just came back to her somehow. In orthodox countries you are born in the religion, you are
marinated with it either you want it or not. Then as an adult you may forget about it but when
something critical happens you go back to it. I have seen the same thing happen with the maternal
language. In Sweden, the Greeks who have been living here for decades start to speak in Greek
again when they turn old. I also think about writing in Greek again, after been writing in Swedish
over 40 years now. Indeed, like meat or fish, you are being marinated for very long when you are
young.
At the end we have nothing but our story and that we can look ourselves in the mirror without being
ashamed thats what we can rely on.
AN: In the light of recent establishments to immigrants, it seems to me here in Estonia, that lots of
people are frustrated, because in their opinion, the immigrants are coming here to have a better
and easier life to get money from government, housing, jobs. But from my grandmother I can
see, that these compensations are definitely not a way to happiness.
TK: Yes, of course they are not happy, no one cant expect them to be happy! They are far away
from their homes, their language, their everyday life, their streets and their churches and
everything. We should just accept that they are not happy You could give them new things but
they want the old ones back like your grandmother and my mother. They also feel that they are
expected to be thankful for the rest of their life to the new country.

AN: Are you also interested in how visual artists are expressing themselves and showing their
works?
TK: Oh yes. When I was younger I was a passionate photographer. In Stockholm there is a
museum dedicated to photography. I go there as often as I can.
AN: What did you take pictures of and how did you go from photography to writing?

TK: At the beginning I took pictures of everything my family, friends, different details and so on.
Finally I concentrated on trees and churches, which I think reminded me of each other. But taking
pictures was not meant to be my artistic expression, rather a nice hobby. Although I have tried
working in different fields like philosophy, theater, movies and television, it was never a question of
doing something else instead of writing. I was doing all that in order to use it in my writing.
Now I am thinking that I would like to write again in Greek, my native language. I am not sure if I
can but its worth it to find out. It is also part of the process of aging we go back either we like it
or not.
AN: Being a stranger, an outsider, is something one can learn but still has to pay the price for. But
its the outside where the different artistic innovations are coming from. Can there be a balance
between belonging to somewhere or something as well as staying outside of it to be experimental?
TK: No one jumps high from an unsteady ground. So we need both roots and wings.

Alissa Nirgi (b.1993) is an artist based in Tallinn, Estonia. She is studying in the Department of
Photography of the Estonian Academy of Arts. Her work is focusing on people, absence and
isolation (geographical, economical, cultural and emotional). Through documentary approach she
is observing the lives of her constantly online and absent boyfriend, war-refugee grandmother,
American Mormons, etc.

Theodor Kallifatides (born on 12 March 1938 in Molois, the Peloponnese region, Greece) is a
Swedish writer and translator of Greek origin. Kallifatides moved to Sweden in 1964. He studied
philosophy in the University of Stockholm and between 1969 and 1977 worked there as the
lecturer of practical philosophy. He has published more than 30 books in Swedish.