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PlatoorPaul?

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ByDanielMiningeronNovember2,20091:58PM|Comments(10)

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Manymedievalphilosopherswereconcernedwithformulatingasynthesisbetween
AristotleandChristianity(ManyoftheproofsofGodsexistenceowealottoAristotle).
However,InoticedsomethingwhilereadingthroughPhaedrus.Therearealotof
concepts/phrasesthatPlatoputsintoSocratesmouththatareeerilysimilarto
phrases/conceptsusedbyPaulofTarsus,whosinglehandedlywrotemostoftheChristian
NewTestament.
Intermsofmanuscriptanalysis,IrememberProfessorLongstatingthatwedon'thave
anymanuscriptsofPlato'sdialoguesthatdatebefore~1000AD.But,wehave
ManuscriptsofPaul'sepistlesthatdatebackto~200/300AD.SincetheChurchwas
effectivelytheonlyinstitutioninEuropethatworriedaboutpreservingphilosophical
documentsinthemiddleages,Ithinkit'spossiblethatsomemonksmighthavepeppered
someofPaul'sphrasesintoPlato'sworkinorderforsynthesistogosmoother.

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Thefirstsimilaritythatcaughtmyeyewasthis:
"Forthereisnolightofjusticeortemperanceoranyofthehigherideaswhichare
precioustosoulsintheearlycopiesofthem:theyareseenthroughaglassdimlyand

therearefewwho,goingtotheimages,beholdthemintherealities,andtheseonlywith
difficulty."(Phaedrus250b)
"Fornowweseethroughaglass,darklybutthenfacetoface:nowIknowinpartbut
thenshallIknowevenasalsoIamknown."(1Corinthians13:12)
Theconceptisthattheearthlywordisinhibitingusfromexperiencingdivinereality.
ObviouslytherearegreatmetaphysicaldifferencesbetweenwhatPlatoissuggesting,and
whatPaulwritesabout.ButI'mstillcuriousiftherewasanyalterationsintheplatonictext.
Anotherexamplethatcaughtmyeye:
"Andhewhoemploysarightthesememoriesiseverbeinginitiatedintoperfectmysteries
andalongbecomesperfect"(Phaedrus249c)

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"Andweall,withunveiledface,beholdingthegloryoftheLord,arebeingtransformedinto
thesameimagefromonedegreeofglorytoanother"(2Corinthians3:18)
Theideahereisthataligningyourselftothedivineallowsyoutoattainthatwhichis
impossiblewithoutaligningyourselftothedivine.
ThelastobviousparallelIfoundwasn'tbetweenPlatoandPaul,butbetweenPlatoand
Luke:
"hehasforgottenmotherandbrethrenandcompanions,andhethinksnothingofthe
neglectandlossofhispropertytherulesandpropertiesoflife,onwhichheformerly
pridedhimself,henowdespise,andisreadytosleeplikeaservant,wheneverheis
allowed,asnearashecantohisdesiredone,whoistheobjectiveofhisworship,andthe
physicianwhocanaloneassuagethegreatnessofhispain"(Phaedrus252a)
"Ifanyonecomestomeanddoesnothatehisownfatherandmotherandwifeand
childrenandbrothersandsistersyes,andevenhisownlife,hecannotbemydisciple.
Whoeverdoesnotbearhisowncrossandcomeaftermecannotbemydisciple."(Luke
14:2627)

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ItmightbeeasytoassumethatthebiblicalauthorswerereferencingPlato,butthelackof
manuscriptsmakessuchapositionhardtodefend.Ifthetextsweredevelopedinisolation
(whichisdoubtful,consideringthepopularopinionthatPaulwasfamiliarwiththeGreek
philosophers)thenit'sinterestinghowsimilarsomeoftheconceptsare.

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itwasintriguingtohearthatthereisstillaneedto
overcomethewest'sheritageofboththe...
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dirkusa 42p

omgitscodyy 63p 316weeksago

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Thisisasortofchickenortheeggargument.ThisgoesbacktoacommonthemeIandothers
havedrawninthatSocraticphilosophyandreligion,inbothgrapplingwiththesameideasand
problems,arevirtuallyimpossibletodistinguishfromoneanother.Socratesdidcomebefore
Christianity,andprobablyinfluenceditsevolution,butthereisevidencethatthechurchin
preservingthesedialoguesmayhaveallowedsomeofChristianitytogetinthereaswell.
Impossibletotell.
IcanseethisasanargumentthatopponentsofreligioncouldmakewhenreadingSocrates
thethechurchthrewinChristianImagerysothattheycanmaketheReligionSocratesclaim
(ThisisnotaimedatyouDanielevenintheslightest.Iammerelydrawingmyownconclusion).
SoIdon'tknowhowrelevantadiscussionof"whocamefirst"willbe,andweshouldjust
acceptthatthereisconsiderablebleedthroughofbothinbothandleaveitatthat.
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howdoesvalorizingtheseaspectsofanimalityinhuman
being(s)ingeneraldiminishracialminorities?...
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ChristopherLong 56p
Yes,Igesturetoaphenomenologyofreadingattheend
ofmyforthcomingbookonSocraticandPlatonic...
158weeksago

dirkusa 42p
hmm,soundsreminiscentofcertainstrainsofbiblical
hermeneutics,perhapsweneedaphenomenology...
158weeksago

DanielMininger 38p 316weeksago

+1

Historicalcriticismisafascinationofmine.Ifyou'veeverreadanyofthebooksputoutbythe
JesusSeminar,oranyoftheopposingChristianscholars,thenyouknowjusthowcomplexand
seeminglycounterintuitiveargumentssurroundinghistoricalmanuscriptsare.
PartofmeisintriguedbytheapparentlackofhistoricalcriticismdonewiththeworksofPlato,
atleastincomparisontothatofreligioustexts.Granted,religioustextsarearguablymore
important,atleasttosome.Butwhendealingwithphilosophy,(eventheexistenceofSocrates
himself)I'dexpectalotofscholarshiptobefocusedonthemetaissues.Imeantherearea
vastamountofproblemswithhavingmanuscripts200/300yearsafterthefact(mostNew
Testamentmanuscriptsdatetoaroundthere,that'snottheassumedauthorshipdate).Butwe
don'thaveanydialoguesthatdatebackpast~1000?Thatseemslikeahugeproblemtome,
andbringsintoquestionhowmuchofthecontentofthesetextswaseditedandchanged.
IknowtherearedebatesandargumentsconcerningspecificdialoguesandwhetherornotPlato
actuallyauthoredthem,butsmalleditsinfavorofsynthesisseemtobemoreprobabletomy
mind.
Ihavenothingagainstreligion.Infact,ifpressed,I'dadmittosomesortofChristianity.But
thatdebatehasnothingtodowiththethepotentialeditsthatweremade.
Maybethesewerejustcommonanalogies/phrases.I'mcuriousiftherewasintentional
referencesmade,regardlessofwhichdocumentwasactuallyauthoredfirst.Theimpactscan,
potentially,berathersubstantive.IftheBiblicalauthorswerepullingfromPlato,thenlittle
changeswithinthecontextofourdiscussion.ButifPlatowaseditedtoincludeaspectsof
spiritualitythatweren'toriginallyincluded,thenitcanchangethedirectionofourdiscussion
fairlydramatically.
IbelieveAnthonymadeacommentinclasstotheeffectof"Ifwethrowouttheassumptionof
thedivine..."Well,ifthetextswereclearlyeditedthenmaybeweshouldthrowoutthe
assumptionofthedivine.

ChristopherLong 56p
@Dirkusa,yourcommentiswelltaken,anditresonates
withalongerconversationthatemergedfrommy...
159weeksago

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DanielMininger 38p 316weeksago

Also,there'stheoptionthattherewasnointentionalorvolitionalreferringtoeitherworkbyany
oftheauthors.Thiswouldbegquestionsconcerningwhetherornotspiritualityisontological.It
wouldalsobegalotofquestionsconcerningthedifferencesinthemetaphysicalframework
bothPaulandPlatoarewritingabout.
I'mnotsurehowmuchofPlato'sspeechismetaphorical,andhowmuchofitheisdescribing
whathebelievestoactuallybetrue(soulsrebirthafter10,000years,philosophersofcourse
beingtheindividualswhocomeoutwithdivineinclinations,etc).
CertainlyitseemsasthoughsomesortofspiritualityisimbuedinthewaySocrates(Plato)
approachestheworld.Thesimilaritiesmaytrulybecoincidental,andthetextsweren'teditedat
all.Ijustfoundtheparallelstoberatherapparent.
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omgitscodyy 63p 316weeksago

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It'sactuallyveryinterestingyoubroughtthisup.IknowfromRLST001thatoftensomeof
themeaningofmanyancientdocumentshavebeenlostfromtranslationtotranslation.
ReadingtheBibleintheGreekorLatinisoftenquitedifferentfromtheEnglishtranslations.
Thesamebasicmessagestillgetsthrough,butdifferentwordshaddifferentmeaningsand
soforth.Iimagineit'slikewatchingColorTVforthefirsttimeafteraworldofBlackand
White.Forexample,whentheBiblesaysMoseswalkedinthedesertfor40years,itsnot
actually40yearsitjustmeansareallylongtime.That'swhyyou'llneverseemeorother
ChristianapologistsadvocatingaliteralreadingoftheBible.Howcouldyouaftercenturies

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ButIdon'tthinkitchangestheoverallmeaningsofthetexts,justcolorsitinacertainway
thatmayhavebeendifferentthantheoriginalartist'sintent.SocratesusingveryChristian
wordingsdoesn'tdiminishPlato'swork.andunlessyou'refamiliarwiththeBible,you'reprob
notgoingtopickuponitanyway.
Buttoaddanotherpossiblewrinkle,didn'tArabandMuslimtradersalsopreserveGreek
writingsduringthedarkages,onlytoreintroducethemduringtheRenaissance?Sohow
muchdidtheMuslimwriterschangepartsoftheoriginaltofitIslam?Ordidtheyatall?I
honetlycannotremembermyancienthistory.

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TonyArnold 54p 316weeksago

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You'reright,Cody.IbelieveitwastheUmayyadCaliphatethatwaschieflyresponsible
forthepreservationoftheAristoteliantexts.Severalofthecaliphswerephilosophically
oriented,hadthetextstranslatedtoArabic,thetextsmadetheirwaythroughthe
caliphateovertoSpain,thecaliphate'swesternmostpoint,andtheretheyweretranslated
intotheRomancelanguagesandHebrew,andweregiventheopportunitytodisseminate
furtherthroughEurope.Frommyview,Idon'tseethatthetranslationswereadulterated,
atleastnotatlibertyrather,Jews,Christians,andMuslims(allofthemhadahand,and
oneofthemostnotableexamplesofthisconvergenceandharmonyoftheAbrahamic
"BigThree"inpreserving,translating,andengagingthesetextsisinMoorishSpainand
thehallsoftheCaliphateofCordoba)attemptedtoreconciletheGreektextswiththeir
religiousbeliefs.

June14

Jointheconversationaboutthebookin
thebookitselforyoucanbeginby
listeningtothisconversationwithWill
Altman,whomadethefirstcommenton
thebookthroughtheenhanceddigital
platform.
http://www.cplong.org/di/digital
dialogue72readingplato/

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TonyArnold 54p 316weeksago

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Greatobservations,Daniel.Iwouldsaythatit'sfairlylikelythatPaulandChristianityingeneral
wereinfluencedbyPlato.Forinstance,thereisgoodreasonfortheAugustiniandivision
betweentheCityofManandtheCityofGodbeingreferredtoasNeoplatonic:theparallelwith
thevisibleworld(ofobjects)andtheintelligibleworld(ofideas[eidos])isprettyclear.IwishI
hadthebackgroundtoarguethispositionthatyouapparentlyhave,Daniel,butunfortunatelyI
donot.However,Iwouldliketoremindusthatinordertoexaminethisconnectionwemust
treatChristianitynotasarevealedreligionbutasthehumanlyconstructedonethatitis.That
said,inconstructingormodifyingabeliefsystemhumansrelyonprecedentofsomesort,
whetheritbeoralorwritten,andthisisespeciallytrueinthecaseofthetwolaterAbrahamic
religions,whichcontinuewithsomealterationthethreadoftheOldTestamentbooks.Itismore
thanpossiblethatChristianity,ingoinganewdirectionfromtheHebraictraditionthatchanges
itscomplexionconsiderably,reliedheavilyonsuchthinkersasPlatotobuttressitsconception
ofmorality,theafterlife,therelationshipwiththedivine,etc.Weshouldfleshthisoutmore
because,contraCody,Ibelievethatit'sveryimportanttodiscover,ifpossible,whocamefirst
inthissituation.Forone,ifPlatowereshowntohaveclearinfluence,asIsuspecthedid,it
mighthelpusnottobesodogmaticinourapproachtoreligionandinsteadappreciatethe
wisdomofthehistoricalhumanphilosophicaldiscussionforitsownsake,topracticetheethical
wisdomcontainedthereinforitsownsake,andtoavoidselfrighteousindulgenceofany
temptingmonopolisticclaimstowisdom,aswoefullyhasbeenthewontofcertainChristian
sectsformostofChristianity'stimeline(andthesameringstrueforcertainotherreligions).
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DanielMininger 38p 316weeksago

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YoumakeafewreallygoodpointsTony.Firstofall,inanyliterarycriticalanalysis,it's
imperativethatwedon'tprivilegeanyspecifictextsbecausewewantthemtobeintheright,
becausetheirbeingrightsupportsarepresupposedideology.Unfortunately,it'sincredibly
hardtoapproachanyissuelikethiswithoutpredispositionstowardsonesideortheother.I
liketothinkIlettheevidencespeakforitself,butveryoftenevidenceisn'tobviously
conclusiveandinferencesmustbemade.
OnethingI'mnotsureIseetheconnectionbetweenisAugustineandthetopicathand.
There'saroughly350yearperiodbetweenPaulandAugustine.TheearlyChurchFathers
werecertainlyinfluencedbyandhadknowledgeofSocrates,Plato,andAristotle,etc.The
developmentofthoughtwithintheearlyChurchFathersmightberelevant,butI'mnotsure
how.Theywereasdiverseasanygroupofthinkerseverhasbeen.

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Intermsofauthorship,whatwehavefromPaulwe'refairlycertainisfromPaul.Weknow
thatafewoftheGospelshavebeenedited(hell,anentirechapterwasaddedtoMarkatone
point),buteditswithinPaularehardertoidentifyduetohisspecificstyleofargumentation.I
amnotnearlyfamiliarenoughwiththebulkofplatonictextstoknowwhenhisstylechanges
dramatically,orbeabletoidentifyabnormalturnsofphrase.

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IhavenodoubtthatPaulwasfamiliarwithPlato,buttheextenttowhichhereliedonhis
philosophicalconceptsisdebatable.Much,ifnotall,ofPaulisheavilyinfluencedbyHebrew
thought(whichmakessense,sincehewasaJew).Thewholeconceptofresurrectionis
incrediblyuniquetoHebrewthought,andnotevenallofthemagreedonit.Thefactthat
Paul'sentiremetaphysicalframeworkisbasedoffofthesupposedresurrectionofJesus
seemstoimplythathewasn'tterriblyreliantonPlatonicthought.However,thatdoesnot
ruleoutthepossibilityofhimusingphrasesfromPlatoinordertoarticulatehisposition.So
itisquitepossiblethatPaulwasmakingallusionstothefamousGreekphilosopher.

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Yousaid,
"ifPlatowereshowntohaveclearinfluence,asIsuspecthedid,itmighthelpusnottobe
sodogmaticinourapproachtoreligionandinsteadappreciatethewisdomofthehistorical
humanphilosophicaldiscussionforitsownsake"

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Iaminclinedtoagree,althoughI'mnotsureitwouldbeseenthisway.IfPaulwas
influencedbyPlato,itisnottoderiveanycentralmetaphysicalconcepts.Thecentral
conceptsofPlato'sunderstandingofthesoul/lifeseemtostandincontrasttoPaul's
conceptofthesoul/life.

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Platowasalive,what,roughly350yearsbeforebegantowrite?Ithinkthecyclicalconcept
ofthesoulissomethingveryforeigntothemodelPaulisestablishing.Maybethat'sa
differencebetweenHebrewandGreekthought,Idon'tknow.

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TimBair 20p 316weeksago

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Thetextsverywellmayhavebeenedited,butasisthecasewithmostofthesewritings,we
willprobablyneverknow.EventheAuthorizedKingJamesversionwastranslatedwithrules
attachedastowhatrulesitshouldfollow.JustasCodysaidabouttheColorTV,themessage
canbesimilar,butneverperfect.Itwouldbenicetoimaginethatthesetextswereinfact
untouchedandoriginal,butohhowsimpleitwouldbetoplaceasmallpassagewithinatext.__I
doagreethatthesimilaritesareintriguingbutdoesthepotentialofaddedcontentmakethe
textsworthanyless?
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ChristopherLong 56p 316weeksago

+1

Justanoteaboutdating.Iamnotanexpertinthisarea,butitseemsthattheoldest
manuscriptswehaveofPlato'stextsdateto895CE,althoughwehavefragmentsofpapyri
fromthesecondorthirdcenturyCE.See,TheOxfordHandbookofPlato.AsforPaul,the
oldestmanuscriptseemstodate,asmentioned,backto200CE.See,theworkofDavid
Trobisch.
Althoughitisimportanttounderstandtheprovenanceofthesetexts,wemustengagethemas
theyhavebeenhandeddowntousovertime.Ourencounterwiththem,acrossthecenturies
andinadifferentlanguage,needstobesensitivetothefactthatwenolongerhaveaccessto
theoriginals.Yetsomethingofthetruththesetextsarticulatecanstillbediscerned.
Reply

DanielMininger 38p 316weeksago

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Ithinkthatwe,aspeopleengaginginaphilosophicalenterprise,can'tignoretheactivitiesof
thedocumentsthemselves.Iambynomeansattemptingtodiscreditdiscussionaboutthe
contentofthedocuments,butwhatuseisdiscussingcontentifweignorethediscussion,
whichcanpotentiallyaffectourreadingofthecontent,surroundingthedevelopmentofthat
content.

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Theflowofthiscoursehas,thusfar,beenphilosophicalliteraryanalysis.ButIdon'tthinkthis
isjustafictionalliteratureclasswherewe'reonlyconcernedwiththetext,andthrowoutthe
authorandpossibleredactors.Ifwe'reworriedabouttrueknowledge,andtrulyaligning
ourselvestowardswhatistrue,thenwehavetoconsidertheoriginsofthedocumentswe're
studying.Sofar,myimpressionisthatwe'retreatingthesedialoguesashistoricalworks,
otherwisewewouldconsiderthecharacterofSocratescompletelyirrelevant,andfocussolely
onwhatPlatoistryingtosaythroughthevariouscharacters.Andifwe'reworkingoffofthe
assumptionthattheseworksarehistorical,itmightbeworthsometimediscussingwhywe
assumethattheseworksarehistoricallyaccurateandreliable.

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EDIT:ThanksforthelinkProfessorLong.Thatinformationisveryuseful.
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