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BladderTank
Startedby ROGOR,Nov 3 02 01 504 :3 4 AM
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ROGOR

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Post ed3 0 Nov em ber 2 0 1 5 0 4 :3 4 A M

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(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/uploads/monthly_11_2015/post

2939280704583001448837804.png)

Iamdesigningthesystemdescribedintheattachedschematic.IneedhelpsizingtheBladderTankandtheappropriate
startupprocedurepressurizingthebladdertank.IhavenothadmuchluckworkingwiththeBladderTanksuppliers.Can
someoneprovidemewithdirectiontoaknowledgeable(experienced)source?

Post ed0 4 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 1 :0 1 PM

Chemitofreak
Hopethisishelpful.
AttachedFiles
(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?
app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10596)

ASHRAE_Journal___Understanding_Expansion_T anks_T aylor_Proof.pdf

(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?
app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10596)806.51KB1 3 downloads

Post ed0 4 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 4 :4 8 PM

ArtMontemayor

Rogor:

Idontbelieveanyonecanfurnishyouwithanoperating,startuporshutdownprocedurewithouthavinga
detailed,asbuilt,P&ID(Piping&InstrumentationDiagram)andtheabilitytodiscussadetailedHazop.
YourPFD(ProcessFlowDiagram)istoosimplifiedfortechnicaloroperationaldiscussion.Weareunable
toaccuratelyinterpretwhatistheintent,design,andscopeofthesystemyoushow.

Forexample,youshowsomethingthatcannotbeasteadystateprocess:asteamheatedexchanger
followedbyachilledwatercooler.Noonedoesthisinreallifesteadystate.Youeitherheatthecirculated
waterorthechillthecirculatedwater.Youdontdobothoperationssimultaneouslyundersteadystate
operation.CorrectmeifIamwrong,butIthinkyouroperationinvolveseither/oroperationoftheheating
orchillingexchangers.Ifthatisthecase,itisimportanttoindicatethisonaP&IDandsubjectittoa
Hazopreviewpriortofinaldesign.

IamattachingacopyofthesubjectASMEarticlethatIconvertedtoaWorddocumentforbetterreading.
IhaveusedthisdocumentinpriordesignsandIconsideritagoodoutlineandgeneraltechnicaldescription
ofanexpansion(orbladder)tank.Pleasenotetheimportanceofidentifyingtheproperandsafedesign
pressure.Eachexpansiontankapplicationisauniqueoneandshouldbedesignedindividually.You
cannotlogicallydesignordescribeyourspecificsystemusinggeneralizedequationsordescriptions.Thatis
whyaP&IDandaHazoparerequiredforproper,safedesign,installation,andoperation.Startup,
shutdown,andoperatinginstructionsshouldincorporateHazopfindings.Iamnotfamiliarwith
Pharmaceuticalindustrydesignprocedures,butIwouldcertainlyapplyOSHAandstandardengineering
proceduresandpractices.Forexample,considertheworstcasescenarioforeachoftheexchanger
operations.Whatisthemaximumpressure(andvacuum)possibleineachoperatingcase?Youcertainly
shouldprotecttheexpansiontank(andtheclosedsystem)withapressurereliefvalve.Andthisisnormally
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notshownonaPFDsuchasyours,butonaP&ID.And,asexplained,thisdependsonhowyouare
operatingthesystemandhowitisprotected.

(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10597)
UnderstandingExpansionT anks2.docx(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?
app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10597)491.7 KB1 0downloads

Post ed0 7 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 9 :3 6 PM

ROGOR
Art

Thankyouforthefeedback.Iappreciateyoutakingthetimetorespondandtosendthearticle"UnderstandingExpansion
Tanks",tome.Youarecorrectinthinkingtheheatingandcoolingareeither/ortypeoperations.Thetransferwateris
heatedwithsteam(5barg)andinturnthetransferwaterheatstheproductslurryto130C.Thetransferwatertemperatureis
controlledsuchthattheproductslurrytemperatureisheldat130Cforapproximately1hour.Aftertheholdingtime,the
transferwateriscooledwithchilledwater(8C)andthetransferwaterinturncoolstheproductslurryto30C.Iwaslooking
fordirectiontoaknowledgeablesourcetoworkwith.Ijustincludedmaximumandminimumtemperaturesinmysimplified
schematic.ThepressuresinthesystemarewhatIamnotsureof.Iunderstandthebladdertankmustbepressurizedinorder
tokeepthewaterfromboilingduringtheheatupprocess.Istheairsideofthebladdertankpressurizedtosay10%higher
pressurethanthevaporpressureofwateratthehighesttemperature?Isthewatersidepressurizedatallafterbeingcharged
withwaterandpriortoturningonthepump?Nottooworriedaboutthecooldownprocess.Iunderstandwewillrequirea
pressurereliefvalveonthesystem.ThelargeHX1isdisassembledbiweekly(tobecleaned)andthetransferwaterloopis
drainedduringthistime.Iwanttomakesurethetransferwaterloopisstartedupsafelyandproperlyeachtime.

Post ed0 8 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 1 :1 3 A M

BobbyStrain

Withtherequirementsyoudescribe,youmightconsidersomethingotherthanwaterasacirculatingmedium.Tokeepfrom
losingwaterduringthehotcycle,thepressureshouldbemaintainedtokeepfromventingwhateverblankedgasusedto
maintainaminimumpressureduringthecoldcycle.Inanyevent,withtheclosedcyclewillwanttouseaglycolandwater
solutionwithappropriateinhibitors.Maybepureethyleneglycolwouldbemoreapplicabletoavoidhighpressureduringthe
hotcycleorlosingwater.

Bobby

Post ed0 8 Dec em ber 2 0 1 5 0 2 :5 7 A M

ArtMontemayor

Rogor:

Bobby'stipsareverygoodadviceandtheonlythingIcouldaddwouldbetousePropyleneGlycolinthe
eventyouareconcernedwithanyleakageandpossibleslurrycontaminationpertainingtofoodgrade
contamination(sincethisis,Ibelieve,apharmaceuticalapplication).Propyleneglycolisapprovedfor
consumableproducts.

AttachedisanExcelsketchofwhatIenvisionisamoreaccuratedepictionofyoursetup.Ifthesetupis
accurate,youshouldhavenoprobleminsizingtheproperandsafeexpansiontank.Designingtheclosed
systemforamaximumpressureequalto5bargshouldnotbeabigdealand,dependingonthephysical
size,mightbedonewithconventionalpipingandsteelmaterials.safelycontaining5bargina12inch
diameterdrumdoesnotrequireabigtankwallthicknessandIwouldnormallyuseaseamlesspipewith
twoellipsoidalpipecapsforthetank.Thenitrogenchargeyouuseisnotgoingtobeanythingbutasmall
amountofpressureenoughtoallowfortheinertingandfortheexpansionofthethermalliquidfluidwhen
itgetshot.Youcaneasilycalculatetheamountofliquidexpansionvolumebetweenthelowestandhighest
temperatureachievable.

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12/11/2015

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Ishowa3waycontrolvalve,butyoucanusemanualblockvalves.Idon'tshowanynecessarydrain
valvesandbypassesaswellasotherdetails.Ithinkthatisyourjob.

IftheExceldrawingisnotanaccuratedepictionofwhatyouintendoriftherearemistakes,thenuseflags
andExcelcalloutstoshowwhatisdifferentordrawyourownsketchthatcanbeeditedorcommentedon
byourmembers.Thatway,onedocumentisusedforthedurationofthethreadandeverymemberthat
cancontributeisfreetogeneratearevision(aslongasitistaggedappropriately).

Ihopethishelpsyou.

(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10605)
ExpansionT ankApplication.xlsx(http://www.cheresources.com/invision/index.php?
app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=10605)216.41KB1 4 downloads

Post edY est er da y , 0 7 :4 0 PM

ROGOR
Art

Thankyouforthehelp.ThearticleyousentwasveryhelpfulandIhavemyanswer.Also,thereasonImustuseplainwater
isbecausethelargeHX1isdisassembledeachweekforcleaningfluidcontainedthereinislosttodrain.Thesystemisthen
rechargedwithwaterandawaywego.

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