Flynns Last Interview: Iconoclast Departs DIA With A Warning Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and

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23/8/15 22:57

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INTEL & CYBER, STRATEGY & POLICY

Flynns Last Interview: Iconoclast Departs

DIA With A Warning
By JAMES KITFIELD
on August 07, 2014 at 12:42 PM

Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn in happier days, taking command of the Defense Intelligence Agency just two years ago.

In this exclusive exit interview with Breaking Defense contributor James Kiteld, the outgoing
chief of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, talks about metastasizing
Islamic terrorism, his struggles to reform intelligence-gathering, and the risk of lurching from
crisis to crisis in an Internet-accelerated world. the editors.

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Disruptive. Thats how Michael Flynns enemies reportedly described him during his time as
director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, a tenure that ends tomorrow a year early
when the three-star general retires after 33 years in the US Army. Was Flynn forced out? The
Pentagon said his departure had been planned for some time when it made the
announcement in April. But Flynn had challenged the Obama administration narrative that alQaedas brand of nihilistic extremism had died with Osama bin Laden in 2011. He had bruised
egos at the DIA trying to transform the 17,000-person bureaucracy into a more agile and
forward-deployed intel operation, one shaped by the lessons he had learned as intelligence
chief for Joint Special Operations Command in Iraq and Afghanistan, working for the ill-fated
iconoclast Gen. Stanley McChrystal. As early as 2010, Flynn made waves with a report, Fixing

Intel, that said US intelligence could not answer fundamental questions in Afghanistan.
James Kiteld: DIA is tracking global crises from Ukraine to the Mideast to North Korea and
the Western Pacic. Have you ever seen so many crises occurring simultaneously?
Flynn: No. I come into this oce every morning, and other than a short jog to clear my head, I
spend two to three hours reading intelligence reports. I will frankly tell you that what I see
each day is the most uncertain, chaotic and confused international environment that Ive
witnessed in my entire career. There were probably more dangerous times such as when the
Nazis and [Japanese] Imperialists were trying to dominate the world, but were in another very
dangerous era. We rightfully talk about the last decade being the longest war in American
history, for instance, but when we pull combat troops out of Afghanistan at the end of this
year, its not going to feel like that war is over. To me, it feels like well be facing a familiar
threat and heightened uncertainty for a long time yet.

JK: Why?
Flynn: I think were in a period of prolonged societal conict that is pretty unprecedented. In
the Middle East, were starting to see issues arise over boundaries that were drawn back in
the post-colonial era following World War I. In some regions, were seeing the failure of the
nation-state, and to some degree the disintegration of the [Westphalian] system of nationstates: Look at Libya, or Mali, or Nigeria. Because of a youth bulge, Nigeria will be the third
most populated country on the planet in ten years, and [the Al Qaeda-linked terrorist group]
Boko Haram is active in half of that country. Then look at whats happening in Iraq and Syria.
What I see is a strategic landscape and boundaries on the global map changing right before
our eyes. That change is being accelerated by the explosion of social media. And we in the
intelligence community are trying to understand it all.
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JK: Do you worry that instability will cause crises to escalate dangerously?
Flynn: Yes, because events happen so fast. Just consider the crisis in Ukraine. Information
travels so fast now that suddenly everyone is asking policymakers, What are you going to do
about it? Even the President, I believe, sometimes feels compelled to just do something
without rst saying Wait! How did this happen? Who made this decision? My point is before
we wade into the middle of a big crisis, we need to take a deep breath, and gure out
whether it was prompted by a decision by [Russian President Vladimir] Putin, or [Chinese
President Xi] Jinping? Or is it provoked by some Russian general on the ground ordering his
troops into Ukraine to gain a promotion, or some Chinese admiral looking to act tough by
sinking a Japanese vessel? Because if a crisis escalates and we go to the gates in preparation
for war, we had better do it for the right reasons.

JK: When you were asked recently at the Aspen Security Forum whether the United States is
safer from the terrorist threat today than before 9/11, you answered no.
Flynn: I know thats a scary thought, but in 2004, there were 21 total Islamic terrorist groups
spread out in 18 countries. Today, there are 41 Islamic terrorist groups spread out in 24
countries. A lot of these groups have the intention to attack Western interests, to include
Western embassies and in some cases Western countries. Some have both the intention and
some capability to attack the United States homeland.
For instance, were doing all we can to understand the outow of foreign ghters from Syria
and Iraq, many of them with Western passports, because another threat Ive warned about is
Islamic terrorists in Syria acquiring chemical or biological weapons. We know they are trying to
get their hands on chemical weapons and use what they already have to create a chemical
weapons capability.
Remember anthrax was used in 2001 [killing ve people] and pretty much paralyzed Capitol
Hill. If that anthrax had been dispersed more eciently, it could have killed a quarter million
people.

JK: You also said recently that terrorist leaders like Osama bin Laden represent the leadership
of al-Qaeda, but that core al-Qaeda is its ideology of perpetual jihad.
Flynn: Yes, and unfortunately the core ideology and belief system is spreading, not shrinking.
Look at the unbelievably violent videos [of beheadings, executions and the destruction of
religious places] coming out of Iraq just in recent days. Ive physically interrogated some of

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these guys, and Ive had the opportunity to hear them talking about their organizations and
beliefs. These are people who have a very deeply-rooted belief system that is just dicult for
Americans to comprehend. Just think about the mindset of a suicide bomber.

JK: When the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria routed the Iraqi Army recently, the terrorists also
appeared to have become much better organized, disciplined and led.
Flynn: These various groups have learned from ghting the U.S. military for a decade, and
they have created adaptive organizations as a means to survive. They write about and share
Lessons Learned all the time. That was something Bin Laden taught them before he died.
These proliferating Islamic terrorist groups have also for years been developing connective
tissue to each other and back to al-Qaeda senior leadership in Pakistans tribal regions. Some
of those connections are pretty strong. Were not talking bits and pieces or nascent
connections.

JK: After Bin Laden was killed and democratic revolutions swept through the Middle East,
there was a belief in the White House and elsewhere that his radical Islamist movement would
also die. Why did you push back against that?
Flynn: Theres a political component to that issue, but when Bin Laden was killed there was a
general sense that maybe this threat would go away. We all had those hopes, including me.
But I also remembered my many years in Afghanistan and Iraq [ghting insurgents].. We kept
decapitating the leadership of these groups, and more leaders would just appear from the
ranks to take their place. Thats when I realized that decapitation alone was a failed strategy.

JK: Did you ever feel like a lone voice in the administration warning that the terrorist threat
was growing, not receding?
Flynn: I think we collectively felt that way. We said many times, Hey, we need to get this
intelligence in front of the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State, the National Security
adviser! The White House needs to see this intelligence picture we have!
We saw all this connective tissue developing between these [proliferating] terrorist groups.
So when asked if the terrorists were on the run, we couldnt respond with any answer but no.
When asked if the terrorists were defeated, we had to say no. Anyone who answers yes to
either of those questions either doesnt know what they are talking about, they are
misinformed, or they are at out lying.

JK: What do you see as your legacy as DIAs leader?

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Flynn: We took ten years of Lessons Learned from combat about intelligence integration,
collaboration and focus on the eld, and built ve Intelligence Integration Centers to support
our combatant commanders and warghters. Despite all the madness going on in the world
that we have discussed, those fusion centers have been stood up and are operating
magnicently. I think we have greatly improved the capability of the Defense Clandestine
Service, shutting down 20 nonproductive facilities and moving a whole bunch of people out
into the eld in conict zones. Im also proud of the fact that our relationship and partnership
with both the CIA and FBI are far stronger today than in the past, which is largely a result of
the personal relationships we have established over the past decade of conict.

JK: What did you make of reports that you are being forced out of your job for being
disruptive?
Flynn: If anyone was concerned about my leadership, I would have been out long ago. But to
be frank, this is my third assignment at DIA, and I have spent ve of the last ten years on
combat deployments. If you go back over my career, everyone Ive worked with during all my
assignments will tell you, Oh yeah, Flynn will come in and shake things up. That was actually
the direct guidance I was given by [former Defense Secretary Leon] Panetta when I was given
this job.
So accomplishing the goals I set required shaking things up at DIA. Maybe it did get to the
point where I was a little too far out in front of my headlights. I had a meeting with my boss
and the message was its time for you to go, and my reaction was to salute and say, Okay,
no problem.
I was ne with that because at the end of the day Im a soldier, and I serve at the pleasure of
my superiors. But I will also tell you that with all these crises weve been discussing the nation
is confronting a dangerous era, facing multiple threats and challenges from Russia, China,
North Korea, Iran, Islamic terrorist groups, you name it. If I wasnt in there shaking things up, I
probably wouldnt have been doing my job.
Topics: afghanistan, africa, Al Qaeda, al-qaida, army, counterterrorism, Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA,
Gen. Michael Flynn, Homeland Security, intelligence, Iraq war, Islamic State, osama bin laden, Russia,
strategy, syria, Ukraine

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