ABDEL BARI ATWAN

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the role of Saudi Arabia? President
Obama held a bilateral meeting with Saudi Arabias King Salman at the G20
summit in Turkey Sunday.
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: You know, Saudi Arabia is the origin of
radicalism, Islamic radicalism, in the Middle East and the whole world and
the whole Islamic world. Why? Because al-Qaeda ideologysorry, Islamic
State ideology is the same Wahhabi ideology which adopted by the Saudi
kingdom. This isyou know, they go back to the time of Muhammad ibn
Abd al-Wahhab in 1704, you know, so they are doingdoing exactly the
same. They are doing in Syria and Iraq this brutality, this savagery, the
Wahhabism of the Saudi regime in 1705 and 06, when they actually invaded
Karbala and Najaf. They committed the same massacres.
So, Saudi Arabia, actually, now, they arethey are, actually, with Qatar and
with Turkey. They have some sort of alliance. And they started the problem
in Syria. They poured billions in Syria, hoping to topple the Assad regime for
personal revenge, not for political means, not for actually, you know, a
strategic move from their side. They just want to take revenge, personal
revenge, because Assad insulted them in a way or another, and also because
they thought that they can topple him in a few weeks, few months maximum.
So they poured billions of weapons. And also, they encouraged a hundred
sorry, tens of thousands of volunteers to go through Turkey to Syria to fight
against the Assad regime.
This isall this was happening while the West actually dont understand.
They were misled by Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Qatar. This is a fact.
When I said they misled, because they did not actually manage to understand
this phenomena. They underestimated the emergence of such a radical

organization or a state like the Islamic State, which we are witnessing now.
This isthis is the problem. Saudi Arabia, until now, they are saying, "We
must topple Assad regime." You know, OK, topple Assad regime, you topple
the Gaddafi regime, you topple the Ali Abdullah Saleh regime in Yemen. So
what happened? Where is the plan B? Have you builtrebuilt Libya, for
example? Did you set a good example in Iraq, in Libya, in Yemen, in Syria?
Whats the plan after Assad, for example? Who will rule Syria? Is it going to
be democracy? Or is it going to be like Libya? Is it going to be like Iraq,
divided on the sectarian lines? This is the problem.
Yes, Saudi Arabia now, they managed to influence the American White
House, the American position, because in your countrythis is the problem.
Nowyou know, until now, the American policy in the Middle East is a
complete shamble. You know, there is no policy, honestly. In six months ago,
they said we should give the priority of rooting out the Islamic State. Said,
"OK, great." And then, now, because of the Saudi-Turkish-Qatari influence,
they said, "No, we have to actuallythere is no future for Assad in the
political process." Where is this political process? Has it started? Why didnt
it start, say, five years ago, when the problem started in Syria? Wh y we are
waiting until now? You had five years to sort it out. You know, you did not
sort it out.
AMY GOODMAN: Its not only
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: And then, when the Russians intervened in Syria to
protect their man
AMY GOODMAN: It is not only
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: now they are sayingsorry, yes?

AMY GOODMAN: Its not only, Abdel Bari Atwan, that the U.S. is
working with Saudi Arabia. I mean, they just sealed the largest weapons deal
in history with Saudi Arabia.
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: Yes. Yeah, you are absolutely right. You know,
its a history there. The problem is, you know, when they were feeding
radicalism in the Islamic world, introducing the Wahhabism as the Puritan
interpretation of Islam and sharia law, the West used to work with them.
They worked with them in Afghanistan, and it was very clear. And what
happened after that? They toppled the communist regime in Kabul, and then,
you know, they left anarchy there, bloody anarchy, Arabso-called Arab
mujahideen. And al-Qaeda emerged. Now, you know, they intervene in Syria.
What happened? The Islamic State emerged. They intervened in Iraq. The
same thing, al-Qaeda again, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al-Tawhid wal-Jihad
organization emerged. So, usually, when there is uncalculated and
underestimated intervention, actually, thats what will happen in the Middle
East. This is the problem.
AMY GOODMAN: How do you think the U.S.
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: And we keep repeating the same mistakes, one
after one. Yes?
AMY GOODMAN: How do you think the U.S. can put pressure on Saudi
Arabia?
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: Oh, yes, they can. You know, they can. You know,
President Obama was actually absolutely correct when he told to the Saudis,
"Look, you know, we are not going to bomb Iran, you know, because you
want us to bomb Iran. You know, OK, yeah, we can protect you from any
Iranian danger. But, you know, your problem is your people. It is an internal
problem. You have a population which is dissatisfied, those population

completely marginalized. You know, those people are unemployed, and they
have no future. They dont have any role in actually determining their
future." So, this isthis is the problem. There are huge problems inside.
The United States can put pressure on Saudi Arabia, and they can put
pressure on Qatar, and they can put pressure on Turkey and say, "Look,
listen, you know, we cant actually, you know, to continue argument with
which is first, the chicken or the egg? The Islamic State or Assad regime?"
They have to make up their mind. You know, if its the Islamic State is a
priority, go for it. If Assad is a priority, go for it.
But you cannot actually keep arguing, and while thousandshundreds of
thousands of people are killed, and 7,000 sorties. We dont know what these
air sorties are killing, for example. How many innocent people are killed
because of it? I dont believe there are these 7,000 air sorties killing al Qaedasorry, Islamic State members. Definitely they are killing innocent
people, civilians. Who will tell us how many civilians were killed? It is a
completely taboo to talk about the deaths, civilian deaths, because of this
allied bombardment of Syria and Iraq, you know, the Islamic State areas,
while until now, also, in the same time, we dont have any accurate figures
by U.S. administration about how many people were killed in Iraq because of
the American invasion of Iraq. This is the problem. You know, onceif the
death among your enemy, nobody counts. If the death among the American,
among the British, among the French, it is well calculated, one by one. You
know, this is discrimination. How can the people of the Middle East believe
this kind of policy? How they are not going to fight this kind of hypocrisy in
a way or another? We are giving, actually, ammunition to radical terrorist
organization like al-Qaeda, like the Islamic State, by this kind of policies.
AMY GOODMAN: Abdel Bari Atwan, I want to get your response

ABDEL BARI ATWAN: We have to be truthful to our people.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to get your response to the comment made by
presidential candidate Bernie Sanders at Saturdays Democratic presidential
debate in Iowa.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I would argue that the disastrous invasion of
Iraqsomething that I strongly opposedhas unraveled the region
completely and led to the rise of al-Qaeda and to ISIS.
AMY GOODMAN: Abdel Bari Atwan, can you respond, you who
interviewed Osama bin Laden twice?
ABDEL BARI ATWAN: Yes, Amy, he is absolutely correct. I am personally
proud to have American candidate saying the truth. We need the truth. Yes,
the American invasion of Iraq created al-Qaeda, or strengthening al-Qaeda
and createdor it created the incubator for the Islamic State, because, you
know, theyas I said, under the banner of de-Baathification, they thrown
millions of Iraqi ex-soldiers, ex-officers on the streets, without any hope,
without any dignity, without any pension, nothing at all. And this is the
hardcore of the Islamic State. Thats why those people are full of revenge,
full of anger, full of blood. So, this isyes, the AmericanI agree with
Sanders. This is the invasion which created most of the problems.
OK, maybe it solved one problemtoppling a dictator, whohe was a
dictator, no question about that. But whatshow is Iraq now? Iraq is
completely dismembered. Iraq is a failed state now. This is the problem. Do
you believe that the Americans, the greatest superpower, the most sovereign,
the most actually modern power, cannot actually fix Iraq, cannot create a
democracy there, cannot create coexistence among the people? And what
happened is the opposite, dividing themthis is Sunni, this is Shia. So, this
isthis is the problem. Yes, it isyou know, we have to say the truth. The

American invasion of the Middle EastIraq, in particularcreating the

environment, the best environment for the Islamic State and for al-Qaeda to
continue their savagery, their terrorism, their brutalism against the people of
that region.
AMY GOODMAN: Abdel Bari Atwan, I want to thank you for being with
us, author of the new book, The Islamic State: The Digital Caliphate,
longtime journalist who served as editor-in-chief of the London-based daily
Al-Quds al-Arabi for 25 years, now runs the Rai al-Youm website, recently
wrote an article, and well link to it, at Salon, "America Enabled Radical
Islam: How the CIA, George W. Bush and Many Others Helped Create ISIS."
Well have Part 2 of our discussion later this week. Well be back in a
minute.