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PSV Closed System Force - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis
PSV Closed System Force - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis
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there is some issue that i need to clarify in this forum since i see that many expert in Piping Stress
Engineering and COde Committe are visited this forum.
The issue is about Force on PSV Closed system.
As what i know that Force that show up when PSV in closed system begin to ring is including in
Impact Force so it is a dynamic event, but still we can use the quasi static method to analyze it by use
the DLF factor.
As long as i know this event also not a static condition because the pressure will change rapidly when
the PSV rst ring.
The problem of my concern is for this PSV Closed system i usually used and consider not only the rst
impact/unbalanced forced in rst elbow or obstruction but also in the second elbow and other
downstream this PSV.
I also read in Peng book, that he mentioned that the event when PSV in closed system ring still
consider as Non static condition, so from here i can take the conclusion there will be no Balanced
force, it means Impact force will occurs in each elbow or obstruction but in opposite direction.
We can measure each of this Force if we know the opening time of the PSV and multiply it with the
length of each pipe section to get the Max. Unbalanced force in each elbow or obstruction.
length of each pipe section to get the Max. Unbalanced force in each elbow or obstruction.
But here in my new assignement i found a different method for client method, where Force
downstream of PSV (other than force on rst elbow) are consider to be balanced each other.
I also found this method in one Engineering company that become a trade mark for Piping
Engineering.
So for all Expert and Collegues here, i ask for your advice, amybe opinion about this Issue.
Hope that it can give another value for all of us here.
Thanks.
With Regards
Nalibsyah
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#40429 - 01/25/11 04:22 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah]
stressguy81[2] As per API 520 Part 2, Cl. 4.4.2
"
Member
Registered:
07/03/08
Posts: 71
Loc: India
Pressure-relief devices that relieve under steady-state ow conditions into a closed system usually
do not transfer large forces and bending moments to the inlet system, since changes in pressure and
velocity within the closed system components are small.
.....
A complex time history analysis of the piping system may be required to
obtain the reaction forces and associated moments that are transferred to the inlet piping system."
As you said in general practice, the momentum component is imposed as a reaction force at PSV.
generally divided as two cases,
Case1: When PSV pops up (Force imposed at PSV) and
I case of having a long run reaction forces can be imposed at the rst elbow at a different case, ex: F1
at PSV and F2 at rst elbow in the establised ow condition, conservatively.
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#40430 - 01/25/11 06:35 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: stressguy81]
mariog[3]
The only accident with PSVs in closed systems I know it is one in which the PSV was wrong chosen and
Member
this was the conclusion of investigations. In my opinion it would have been avoided by common sense
process/piping experience but also by eld operators feedback.
Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 525
Loc:
Romania
was chattering for years before piping was broken. It was a fatigue damage "assisted" by poor supports-
Reversing the point of view, you can see in eld PSV arrangements that cannot be quali ed by today
calculations but have had a satisfactorily service for long time.
I think any calculation for PSV in closed systems is good because offers the opportunity to review the
related piping and helps providing stiff supports. For this point of view the calculation must be
encouraged.
In the same time, Im in doubt that 99% of these calculations would simulate what its happening in
In the same time, Im in doubt that 99% of these calculations would simulate what its happening in
eld with PSV in a closed system. That's why I don't want to say one approach is wrong and another one
is good.
In addition, when the Client/Company regulations are hard (and usually it is the case, because it seems
to be o hot topic!) you have to comply with.
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#40431 - 01/25/11 07:33 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
danb[4]
Member
Registered:
04/22/05
Posts: 1174
Loc: ...
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#40434 - 01/25/11 07:46 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
MoverZ[5]
A further warning about Mach speed ..... it cannot in most cases be exceeded in a PSV body due to
Member
to calculate reaction forces can give incredible results. If you check the associated velocity it may be
choking. Since velocity is not directly addressed in the equations given, the formulas in API RP 520 used
Member
to calculate reaction forces can give incredible results. If you check the associated velocity it may be
well in excess of Mach speed and thus impossible. A reduction to a realistic mass ow rate should give
Registered: better force results.
11/22/06
Posts: 1189
Loc: Hants,
UK
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#40435 - 01/25/11 08:17 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ]
danb[6]
Indeed, and this is in line with Norsok P-001 limiting criteria ro x v2 less than 200 000.
Member
However a rough formula w x v = ro x v2 x A is quite reasonable. (e.g. for a 8" line and a ro x v2= 200 000,
Registered: force will be 7534 N) Not big, not small, but will lead to a lot of guides and/or stops.
04/22/05
Posts: 1174 _________________________
Dan
Loc: ...
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#40440 - 01/25/11 09:56 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: MoverZ]
mariog[7]
Dear MoverZ
Member
You say
Quote:
Registered:
09/29/07
Since velocity is not directly addressed in the equations given, the formulas in API RP 520 used to
Posts: 525
Loc:
Romania
I reattach a paper showing a simple way to evaluate pressure in isentropic choked ow (Mach=1). You
can see the same result in some articles, but the uid mechanics model is more complicated there.
My best regards.
Attachments
Choked_ ow_pressure.pdf[8] (494 downloads)
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#40441 - 01/25/11 10:10 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
MoverZ[9]
Member
Thanks for the uid mechanics lesson Mariog, I am well aware of theory. My note was a warning since I
have had occasion to check calculations where a small PSV apparently attracted a huge force, due
exactly to the error I outlined. People do make mistakes and far too many 'engineers' apply equations
blindly, because all too often they have found an unchecked and non-validated Excel spreadsheet
#40449 - 01/25/11 03:56 PM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
mariog[10] Dan,
Member
I think your example may be written as "if there is a free-jet exiting 8" piping area with (choked)
Member
I think your example may be written as "if there is a free-jet exiting 8" piping area with (choked)
parameters complying with rho*v^2=200000 kg/(ms^2), the reaction force would be 7534 N".
Registered:
09/29/07
Posts: 525
Loc:
Romania
PS. I have a funny story with a PSV process issue in a big company that after 2 months of Olga software
calculation decided to have 24" size line downstream of the 2"x4" piloted PSV. So 24" wasn't the
subheader size, it was the size connection to the subheader. The model was a visual aggression and the
calculation was "worse than nothing".
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#40455 - 01/26/11 05:40 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: mariog]
danb[11]
I think that I will not rephase as the purpose of this was more trivial.
Member
I was talking about ow induced forces. Decent problems require decent solutions, sort of "better than
nothing". For complex problems, there are other solutions and I am not one of the specialists that can
#40462 - 01/26/11 08:52 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: danb]
mariog[12] Dan,
Member
You were talking about ow induced forces in closed systems and I was talking on the fact rho*v^2
Member
You were talking about ow induced forces in closed systems and I was talking on the fact rho*v^2
transposed in "force criteria" would be a criteria for forces due to "free-jet" effect in open systems. I
Registered: think also that rho*v^2 is a steady-state criteria and does not address to the "momentary, instantaneous
09/29/07
Posts: 525
Loc:
The point is I have no evidence such criteria is a decent one in closed system except the connection with
Romania
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#43155 - 06/02/11 08:40 AM Re: PSV Closed system Force [Re: Nalibsyah]
Tengku_Syahdilan[13] Stress guy and others, i think i need to clarify what asked. My concern is that when PSV rst
pop up there will be a travelling wave downstream the PSV discharge or RV discharge. This
Member
load is not balanced each other. This force will have the same history shape throught out the
system but the arriving time is different in each point. This is why in API 520 as stress guy
Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Indonesia
I have found a case where previous engineering company apply the usual method (apply
upward, and horizontal at valve body), and the result the pump downstream of this RV
system having a trouble. so we x it by apply and considered the transient effect that not
considered by previous company and now have been 3 years the pump still run smoothly.
_________________________
Tengku_Syahdilan
"From Failure we Learn"
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