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Flight Planning Tricks
Flight Planning Tricks
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi All
I have just started ATPL Flight Planning and just wondering if anyone that has done it has any short cuts, tips,
tricks etc to pass on.
I am going through all of Nathans (AFT) notes and doing all the work, and am getting the hang of it, albeit quite
slowly at the moment.
I know some people average out headings, winds etc and create "super sectors" and just including them within
TOC and TOD, though not sure if that will yield a constant and accurate result.
I am especially interested if anyone has tricks on creating a good 'guesstimate' on flight fuel required that is
more accurate than (NM x 10) + 1600 that would give me a good and more accurate figure to check my final
figures against.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
crank1000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have some more accurate figures. PM me for them if you want. The AFT is all you need to pass but if you can
be bothered to do a few more minutes of calculation on the big questions then I can help you out. Sometimes the
rules of thumb don't give you a clear cut answer in the test. Some answers have only 50 kilo's difference
between them. If you muck up your landing weight for a 1 inop PNR then you need all the accuracy you can
get.
ReverseFlight
I am self studying Rob Avery due to work commitments and a tight budget. Sure, he's the one suggesting "super
sector" calculations. Even so, I am worried I might run out of time in the exam with those. Do I really have to
split them up ?
Besides, some of my calculated wind components and SGRs differ slightly from his examples.
Crank1000, could you PM me also ? Any help or advice greatly appreciated.
skytops
Posts: 178 From memory the big questions are worth 4 or 5 marks, and are all toward the end- fun things like
PNRs, ETPs etc.
Do these big mark ones first (and hopefully correctly). After the practice exams youll have an idea on how long
each of these take- then allow yourself say 10-15 minutes per each of these. If you don't have the answer, move
to the next one. Don't dwell on them if you are stuck, move on and come back little later.
Then work down through the lesser mark questions. It's more likely quicker and easier to discount and guess
from a 1-2 mark question. Also, if you guess and get wrong a 5 marker as opposed to a 1-2 marker, the impact
to your end result is a lot worse!
That's my tip!
9th May 2008, 04:34 #6 (permalink)
ReverseFlight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 576 Thanks for the good advice.
I don't want to start a Rob Avery vs AFT argument (indeed I have great respect for both) but just to give a
couple of examples, Rob suggests supersectors rather than split them up, and then on climbs AFT says use
FL185 winds up to FL310 but Rob says use the average of FL185 and FL 235 - they both go either way, if you
see what I mean.
9th May 2008, 05:45 #7 (permalink)
ReverseFlight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 576 Thanks landof4x, I was recently doing an ETP practice question and your point was right on.
Also, I have slipped up on distances in the past because of the way they worded it - in the heat of the exam, too
many flashing lights ...
Keep the great tips coming, I need every one of them to pass this exam.
9th May 2008, 08:03 #8 (permalink)
rep
just goes to prove it's just an exam, which is what I have been trying to tell myself, I'll forget everything as soon
as it's over. I'm based in Vic and have my hands full, just couldn't get away to Queensland for the course. I
appreciate what you're saying. I've only heard praises for N Higgins.
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from memory, when a/c goes up you will use the wind at 2/3 of the Altitude you are going to (ie. Sea Level to
FL370 = use the wind @ FL235). when a/c goes down you will use the wind at half of the altitude you are
going to (ie. FL370 to Sea Level = use the wind @ FL 185)
for 1 EN G INOP CP, always use Airspeed of 415kts (thats the way the question is writtern)
DP ops, always use F130 (both east and west) and M0.59, wind @ F180. descend time to Sea Level = 13 mins
and 990kgs of fuel (including 400 kg of approach fuel)
write the total distance of the airway you have used in practice exam on ERC with pencil, that saves a few
minutes
Airspeed = Mach no X 39 X sqrt (Temp in degree K)
always double check your mid-zone weight because you may be out by 0.1 tons and that make the difference
between pass and fail
Typical fuel burnt per hour (both normal and 1 ENG INOP, depending on weight) ~ 4200-4400kg, anything
outside that range usually indicate some error
10th May 2008, 04:18
rep
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A question for Cap787 : the POH uses LRC for OEI so at FL230/240 the TAS goes from 405 to 415 as the
weight increases from about 70T to 76T, which might make a difference with the SGRs. How can I be sure
about using 415 TAS as you said ? Appreciate more input.
10th May 2008, 10:10
rep
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capt787
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 68 i did my one with len sales. i guess 415/420 won't make too much of a difference
415/420 can only be used with CP calculation. DO NOT use this figure with anything else
11th May 2008, 10:43
ReverseFlight
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I've also found detailed track averaging too cumbersome and liable to mistakes under exam pressure conditons.
Basically eyeballing the RSWT against the ERC-H waypoints produces a very near result in many cases.
Also regarding fuel allowances they often switch between startup weight and BRW - one of the many
annoyances to get you wandering further off the correct answer.
25th May 2008, 02:15
go_soaring
#31 (permalink)
PNR's, pick one, then work towards it like the forward plan. Be careful to get the right amount of flight fuel.
Then figure out how far you've got to move (if any) to the correct PN R using SGR's..
CPDP's are a give away 5 marks, pray for these buggers!!
Also got one 4 mark Payload question, so lucky!
Safe Planning,
go_soaring! instead
25th May 2008, 02:39
rep
#32 (permalink)
(c) absolute imperative .. make yourself a schedule of mins/question to spread the time allocation according to
the marks on offer .. no point in getting the first three questions done perfectly and leaving the rest not
attempted ... and then, stick to the schedule .. if you haven't finished the question, leave it, go onto the next one
.. and then come back at the end if you have some spare time ...
25th August 2008, 15:16 #41 (permalink)
FRQ Charlie Bravo
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks. A bit paranoid perhaps, I'm just convinced that somebody is always looking for a way to screw me!
(Relax I'm from C ASA; I'm here to help.)
FRQ CB
It's a pretty lousy abuse of the English language but that's what they want. The following paragraph makes
another interesting scenario to note (I do not THINK that this is on the exam but it may be) is that they can still
make DP Holding fuel reqd if they say that the aerodrome is closed for Inter or Tempo periods due to weather
(that's really really really bad weather as in below Landing Minima)
I hope that this clears things up. Sorry if I messed you around. Please find below my original and (almost) unedited post.
FRQ CB
No, refer to page 1-16A in the 727 manual. It is only the holding fuel for traffic which you will be exempt from
carrying (the logic being that if you lose an engine or have suffered a compression failure then ATC will move
you to the front of the queue for landing thereby obviating the need for holding fuel)(Wrong, see above). As the
Inter and Tempo are weather induced you must assume that you will arrive and be unable to land and have to
hold for that amount of time (in whatever configuration you are in).(Wrong, see above)
What I think you may be thinking about is the difference between the Contingency Reserve for Normal Ops vs
DP (10% vs N il), the Fixed Reserve for Normal Ops vs O EI or DP (3300kg vs 1500kg or 2250kg) or the fact
that there's only need to calculate Fixed Reserve for the alternate aerodrome if it's needed.
The text I am studying explains the first bit really well (I paraphrase):
Quote:
These rules may sound strange but the logic behind a more stringent alternate requirement for OEI arrivals
compared to DP is so that the aircraft with only two engines will always have sufficient fuel to proceed to a
Suitable aerodrome (you beaut weather well above minima) and be virtually guranteed of not having to make a
OEI missed approach due to not becoming visual. There is no particular performance problem with DP missed
approaches and the relaxed weather requirements mean that more airports will be available as alternates for a
depressurisation which will ease the fuel critical nature of a depressurisation.
(with apologies to Advanced Flight Theory, Flight Planning, p. 58)
The above applies only to a pilot sitting on the ground making a plan. Once airborne then, and only then, does
page 1-16 para 9. come into effect (recalc of Normal Ops fuel requirements).
You're reference to a "depressurization emergency" makes me want to make one pertinent point: It is important
to remember that when you plan for these failures there is every expectation that you are going to make an
uneventful landing somewhere; you're not not simply making the most of an emergency situation (for the
purpose of the ATPL exam these are covered in the very back of the manual and only takes up 3 pages). What
we are looking at is handling abnormal operations (the use of the word "Emergency" is intentionally avoided I
think) so you don't just go looking to "land immediately regardless of the weather conditions".
For what it's worth...
FRQ CB
PS If anybody thinks I've said something wrong please pipe up and let me (and everybody else reading this)
know.
PPS Mingalababya, feel free to PM me and if you're in Perth definitely PM me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 16th September 2008 at 05:35. Reason: Hungry for some crow! (I made a
big mistake here and need to fix it.)
28th August 2008, 19:07 #48 (permalink)
FRQ Charlie Bravo
doing flight planning now, 5 days of it and my head has caved in. Tempted to be driven to the bottle. Please tell
me the FMS sorts all this jazz out inflight?
With 1 engine inop, you can still fly on its remaining engines if properly configured (drift down), so you must
hold for the wx. Depressurisation requires immediate descent to Lsalt and sucks fuel and so requires an
immediate landing. Never mind the wx, the tower will clear the runway for your emergency, hence no holding.
45 minutes for a question is too slow - it should be more like 10-15 minutes max. From my memory there are
20+ questions and with a least 3 which were 5 marks and a lot of others worth 3 or 4 marks. The secret is not to
calculate your answers but to do rough estimates - winds, distances, weights etc - and pick the nearest answer.
Often you can discard half the answers given cos' they are in the wrong direction in a PNR/CP etc. Another way
is to do a rough estimate and work back from the answer given which is closest to your estimate, and if the
numbers are not right, then move to the next closest answer, and so on. That way you can finish a question in
between 1 and 5 minutes.
Tackle the 5 markers first, then the 4s and then the 3s. That way you will not be bogged down with wasting time
on a 3 marker when there are more marks to be gained elsewhere.
I don't have my materials with me but I hope this helps.
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Systems - 2nd only to FP when it comes to faliure rates, very broad set of subject material. The CASA question
are quite different to Nathans questions, so best bet is go through the book questions and answer each question
by looking for the info.
All the best, once you have done the hard yards with these you can forget study until your type rating!
#63 (permalink)
Lasiorhinus
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria
Posts: 1,214 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hill
My depress pnr came out to be 590nm which i thought was accurate in my planning, i did it again with a bit
more accuracy and got 595nm which favoured answer b!
Get a rough estimate of where your PNR should be - then instead of working out a whole flight plan based on
where you *think* the PNR should be, work out a flight plan based on using the closest of the actual answers to
where you think the PNR is.
They give you four answers. One of them IS correct. Use that to your advantage.
ksa5223: No, there are no off-track PNRs in Flight Planning. That's just a Navigation question. There are,
however, PNRs to other airports on track, that may not be either your departure or destination.
As Lasiorhinus said there may be; I had a PNR question with PNR for an (almost) enroute aerodrome. O n a
flight YSSY YPPH via H44 and Q32 overhead MTP BW is ?????, PH is Accept becoming Suit with 30 min
fuel (Inter), PAD is Suit. What is PNR Norm Ops PH - PAD (ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135)
distance reference PH?
I was really thrown by that one and spent too long on it (and I got it wrong which could have saved me from
failing). What they meant by ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135 is that as both are one-way routes
and the question was for Norm Ops (no reason to be able to fly against the route direction and Q32 is a bit less
direct than Y135) fly back on Y135 but don't worry about travelling the 30 or so nm south to get to it. I really
can't believe that I let that distract me from the other issues and I ended up using the wrong reserves (applied the
Inter at PAD, lost 5 points or 10%, another $170 in two weeks thank you very much).
Quote:
They must have added new questions to the database, cause none of my group got question on Bali!
The Bali question on my exam was just whilst enroute to Bali from BN on G326 with a GW of ????? at VINAX
and TAT of ?? what is fuel burn between VINAX and GUNAM? (both are still points over the continent and
there was no need to know anything about Indon). I don't know if anybody else has had other Bali questions but
I'd be interested to hear them.
As somebody who recently failed I would emplore anybody preparing to sit it to do two things:
Practice doing the bare minimum to answer the question accurately (if they only ask for flight fuel or other fuel
burn derived answer don't worry about the GW, Lnd Wt, ETI).
Do lots and lots of practice exams. Five Rob Avery exams (purchased after failing) cost me about $55. Resitting
will cost me about $160 (I really don't want to re-resit).
Good luck,
FRQ CB
13th September 2008, 13:29 #68 (permalink)
The Hill
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: out there
Posts: 102 FRQ CB.....dont worry too much mate, not the first and certaintly wont be the last. Rob Averys
practice exams are a good choice, they are quite in depth, but if you can do those you can do anything
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRQ Charlie Bravo
On a flight YSSY YPPH via H44 and Q32 overhead MTP BW is ?????, PH is Accept becoming Suit with 30
min fuel (Inter), PAD is Suit. What is PNR Norm Ops PH - PAD (ignore lateral distance between Q32 and
Y135) distance reference PH?
Dont get confused by the way they word things. (OK, easier said than done with CASA questions). Off-track
PNRs are not examined in this exam - if you attempt to use Off-track PNR methods to solve this, you'll likely
confuse yourself, run out of time, and with certainty, get the question wrong.
It is to be treated as an on-track PNR, and the clue is in the phrase "ignore lateral distance between Q32 and
Y135".
Yes, they're one-way routes, but to get from Q32 to Y135 would require, as you say, travelling some 40 nm
south before turning left for Adelaide. This overcomplicates the question and actually means it wouldn't be
asking for the simple PNR, so they instruct you to ignore the lateral distance, ie, assume there is no lateral
displacement, ie, assume you can just chuck a u-turn and fly back to Adelaide, ie, assume Adelaide was actually
on-track.
Yes, its a poor way to word it, but they're actually trying to make it simpler.
You're given a weight over Mount Hope (it will more than likely be a Gross Weight, or a Fuel On Board
weight), and more than likely, a speed and height.
Work out how much fuel you have available for PNR calculations (making sure to deduct the in- flight fixed
reserve, not the planning stage fixed reserve), and draw up a flight plan.
Find an equal point - that is, a point that on one side, both the O ut and Home legs are identical, and the other
side is not. Mount Hope VOR is a good equal point.
Work backwards - you know your landing weight, (take off all the flight fuel youve calculated to be available but don't take off your weather reserves if any. In this case, none required.) so you can also quickly calculate
your Top of Descent weight, to the kilogram. Work out how much fuel you'd burn flying back from MTP to
Adelaide (it's about 160nm), and deduct that fuel from your available.
Now you can work out your distance to the PNR, and once you've got a distance, read the question again to
make sure they wanted it in distance from Adelaide, not from Perth, because it would really be unpleasant to get
the right PNR but still pick the wrong answer.
Good luck on your re-sit - feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about any of the exam.
13th September 2008, 17:31 #70 (permalink)
FRQ Charlie Bravo
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: q uo poq nq s s s
Age: 31
Posts: 544 Dead weight fuel and the CASA ATPL Information Booklet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's a curly one I found in my old uni notes:
Flight from Alpha to C harlie with an intermediate stop at Bravo where there is no fuel. Consider only Normal
Ops.
Flight fuel A to B 5200 kg
Flight Fuel B to C 4200 kg
Alpha and Bravo are suitable but Charlie is Acceptable and Suitable with INTER
Using Fleet Basic Weight what is max payload out of Alpha?
The answer involved calculating the FF, Reserves, Holding and Taxi. What threw me was the calculation of
10% CR for sector 1. Surely the FF for sector 2 covers that. I understand that a company would be pretty pissed
off to have the sector 2 fuel used unexpectedly on sector one but if it's a question of Max Payload / Min Fuel
then I would argue that the answer in my book is not min fuel.
For those playing at home the answer was that it was Landing Weight limited at Bravo.
There is one sentence at the end which reads "Assume contingency reserve is consumed but fixed reserve intact
for the purpose of flight planning" but I find that a bit misleading. Surely I could understand being told to err on
the side of caution and consider the CRs as cumulative but that's not what I'm told. Based on that the sentence
that I ought to consider the CR as consumed I expect to be able to use every KG of 1st sector CR as payload
(since I'll burn it off before landing thereby meeting but not exceeding my MLW).
If you come across this in a CASA exam then please share. It is my understanding that C Rs (like holding fuel)
are not cumulative (but commercial considerations such as not wanting to be stranded in Woop Woop may
dictate otherwise... but this is a C ASA exam).
FRQ CB
PS Tiger19 with regards to our conversation earlier about the use of only the first portion of a return trip of
multiple sectors/forecast areas page 6-2 of my Aviation Theory Centre book pointed out the guide to data
extraction given in the ATPL Information Booklet. From there I found out why the texts we have always gave
SGRs based on only the early sector WX and Fuel Flow. Para 3.4.2 states that it it the Temp at the point of
failure which should be used (and by extension of this logic find the conditions for your SGR calculation).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 13th September 2008 at 17:33. Reason: Opinions are like belly buttons... so
I replaced the word
16th September 2008, 01:09 #71 (permalink)
ksa5223
Best bet is to work out how much fuel you need to land with (remember that you will be RETURNING to
somewhere so forget fuel needed for holding or whatever at any aerodrome to which you are not
RETURNING). Best way to do this is to see how much fuel is available, subtract holding (if appropriate),
subtract taxi (if appropriate), subtract Fixed Reserve and this will give you fuel to be used for Flight Fuel plus
10% reserve (or in the case of DP this will give you flight fuel). Divide this number by 1.1 and you will have
Flight Fuel. Put a BIG FAT CIRCLE around that number as you will need it in 5 to 10 minutes time.
Choose one of the multi-choice answers (1 in 4 chance of getting lucky) but don't waste too much time trying to
choose the right one (if doing a practice question and there's no multi choice just go about 3/4 of the way and
try that). Do a flight plan from current position (on the ground or in the air or even though you may be on the
ground still they may say that from the flight plan you will be at position X at such and such GW... you beauty,
they've just saved you the hard work) out to your chosen guessed PNR and then back to the RETURN
aerodrome for a landing. If the flight fuel used equals the one with the BIG FAT CIRCLE then you chose well
and you can move on. If your flight plan burnt too much then you went too far... how far, I'm glad you asked.
Remember the PNR formula? Simply divide the excess fuel burnt by the sum of cruise SGR home plus cruise
SGR out (SGR = Fuel burnt divided by the nm covered or roughly and more easily calculated Fuel Flow per
hour divided by Ground speed). This will give a small number which is how far off your guessed PNR used in
the flight plan is from the real PNR. Simply subtract (if you flew too far / burnt too much fuel) or add (it you
flew too little / burnt too little fuel).
PNR is a fancy way of saying that you want to give it a real good crack of getting to where you want to go BUT
if needed you have to have a back door for safety. If your flight plan has you landing at the RETURN
aerodrome with more fuel than your absolute minimum (VR + FR + Holding + Taxi in) then you didn't go far
enough (and you didn't do your best to get the payload to the destination). If you don't have those then you'll
have gone too far (and broken the law).
FRQ CB
PS keep the questions coming (you too KSA5223)
4 points - 17 minutes
3 points - 9 minutes
2 points - 4 minutes
1 point - 2 minutes
Start with the 5s then the 4s (mathematically there shouldn't be too many 4s) then skip the 3s (I find them more
time consuming for only 3 points and at this point in the exam maybe give the brain a minute to chill out) and
go do some 2s before returning to the 3s. Do the 1 pointers last (but give yourself a chance to get them right,
maybe save the last 5 minutes for them). Depending on the exact breakdown that you get on the day the above
ought to take you about 180 minutes so if you stick to it you will have little time to relax and recheck your
answers.
Keep the posts coming.
FRQ CB
ALSO
Just in case I lead anybody astray please note that I made a mistake in a post a few weeks ago regarding DP
holding fuel for weather. As soon as I can get around to it I will fix it soon by means of an edit to that post and
then I will edit out this paragraph.
16th September 2008, 05:32 #75 (permalink)
FRQ Charlie Bravo
These are just ideas and if it doesn't suit you don't worry about it (it works for me but speaking with Tiger19 he
reckons it's a bit too much messing around).
I also believe that using large zones is of great benefit. Generally breaking a large sector into smaller zones will
yield a slightly smaller fuel flow but if you know that then just go the faster method of the big zone and keep it
in the back of your mind if torn between answers. (This is not good on small questions covering small sectors.)
For flights around the WA/SA border look at the actual mag var if unsure whether to use 0 or 5 degrees on your
winds.
When you get a start zone weight (after having done your descent fuel) multiply NM by the generic SGR (SAR
corrected with +/- 1 for +/- every 50 knots wind) then divide by half and subtract the start zone weight to get a
more accurate EMZW (it will be a negative number but you'll know what to do with it). If it's dman close to
being on the verge of a MZW requiring interpolation and one not requiring interpolation assume that someone
is trying to screw you and go with the one that requires interpolation (more often than not they want to screw
you). Don't forget to check it after getting a zone weight. If it's wrong then use the "wrong fuel" to estimate the
new EMZW but no need to recheck this one (according to my uni lecturer) as it's more accurate than the SGR
method (but just not quite close enough for an answer).
If a question only asks for fuel then consider not worrying about Landing weight or even TOD weight (by this
time you've already got your descent fuel/dist/time). Also, don't stress about checking that your landing weight
is closer to 70,000 or 60,000 as this makes such a small difference. (I've noticed that my plans for Norm Ops are
always nearest to 70t, DP and OEI are usually a bit under 70t and if I plan to an alternate it's usually just under
65). Rob avery suggests always going to halfway between the figures. I think that's a bit annoying.
On the 3, 4 and 5 markers skim the entire question especially the last paragraph which actually poses the
question. You may well find that you don't have to do a whole plan (I did the whole plan and then found that
they gave me GW at position X, I didn't redo the whole thing, I just found the different weight at X according to
my plan which was about 1000 kg off and corrected my numbers, just barely got that one right).
Have some water on hand
Highlight the One Engine Inop headings in your manual so that you remember to multiply by TWO (of course
the fuel burn of 6000 kg per hour should tip you off).
Put some blank post-its in your manual so that you've got some ready made book marks.
Put some nice folds in your ERCs High so that you can easily fold it however you need it for a particular route
in the exam. I took particular care placing folds in ERCs 2 and 3 so that between most major cities I can have
only the relevant parts of the chart showing with nice clean folds with minimal re-arranging. It's not pretty but
it's practical.
OK, that's all I can think of. Most of those are half-baked ideas from a guy who has yet to pass so take it with a
pinch of salt.
FRQ CB
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Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 21st September 2008 at 14:15. Reason: Added 5th Bullet point then points
about chart folding.
Age: 31
Posts: 544 No worries mingalababya (what's your name mean? Am I being culturally insensitive by asking?).
I didn't get any CP questions on my exam (except for one really weird one where it was give but I had to plan
Norm Ops to it and then OEI from it, basically just a straight forward plan but worded in such a way as to take a
long long time to get my head around it... tossers).
So here's the wording of a question which I think would require Holding Fuel for DP ops except that the
question directs you to just overfly it (Cairns to Alice overflying Mt Isa):
Quote:
Mt Isa is forecast to be Suitable for the period of possible use if weather holding is carried to allow for
INTERmittent deteriorations in cloud base and visibility due thunderstorms.
Another fun one (nowhere in the question is there any mention of the words Acceptable or Suitable with respect
to the destination aerodrome, but it is a PNR so you actually don't go there anyway):
Quote:
Hobart airport is experiencing TEMPOrary weather conditions during the period of possible use, which will at
times be below the alternate minima, but not below the landing minima.
Wow, I forced myself to have an answer to all 5 point questions by 20 minutes on the timer today (individually,
not as part of a practice exam). I averaged 22 minutes and got them all right, some small mistakes but only
EMZW by a tonne which was damn close for fuel burn and even closer for PNRs. Like mingalababya I really
feel the need to check and recheck so this was a good lesson. There is really no substitute for doing lots and lots
of practice questions, it makes it easier to see the real story behind the numbers and methods.
On a technical note I realised today that in all of the PNR questions I examined; once I had a difference in flight
fuels (my planned vs what I ought to have) I could just use generic SARs (Norm Ops 10 + 10 = 20, OEI 10 + 11
= 21, DP 10 + 13 = 23) in place of the actual SGRs and still get the right answers. Maybe I got lucky, perhaps
it's not worth the time saved (about 1.5 minutes). Also realised that SGR can come from two sources (one of
which can sometimes be teased from the question itself), SGR = Fuel Flow / GS or Zone Fuel / Zone NM.
One PNR question gave a BRW, a GW at TOC, then cruise reporting point 1, and cruise reporting point 2. My
PNR guess was about 100 nm past the second reporting point so I just calculated the fuel burn between points
one and two (difference in GWs given in question) divided by the nm to get an SGR and then applied that to the
next 100 nm to my PNR. Sure I might have had a different EMZW if I'd done I the hard way but over 100 nm it
was going to make bugger all difference. After that slick and easy calculation all I had to do was fly home from
the guessed PNR at FL130. I had a hefty amount of fuel left to burn so after the correction I was off by about 13
nm from the correct answer (and about 140 nm from the nearest wrong answer).
By Jove I think he's got it!
Now one that's really pissing me off:
Pre-flight planning for O ne Inop PNR Cairns to Alice via Mt Isa. I've worked out a GW for the start of the OEI
return to Cairns of 72,426, (the answer from the book comes to 72,450) so I round down to 72,000. It is ISA+3
so I round that to ISA+5 (and interploate). I plug this into the OEI Alt Capability chart and I come up with
25,440 feet or for a flight to the East FL250. Rob Avery chose FL230 (and burnt a lot more fuel).
I got the answer right (reference dist Mt Isa choices were 345, 270, 615, 180or 100) but I was still 15 nm off of
his answer. Did I miss something? If you've done the AFT course and have seen the Rob Avery way of doing
do you think that with his method he simply burnt a bit less fuel getting to the PNR (50 kg would do it) and
round up to 73,000 kg for the table. Even old Rob seemed to have the same fuel flow as me but still went for the
lower level (he doesn't give a GW just an SGR... that's his method I suppose).
Good night possoms.
FRQ CB
Quote:
If this was a OEI situation, and the destination (ML) was Acceptable and required 30mins to become Suitable,
and AS was Suitable, would you plan to AS, for the purposes of calculating fuel required for DP scenario in
accordance with company policy?
OK, say you had your engine failure 15 minutes before you got the the CP.
Would you then have enough fuel to go on to Alice and land with all reserves intact?
23rd September 2008, 09:30 #102 (permalink)
ksa5223
ryda
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 41 ksa, I got that pnr question in my exam also. Luckily I had done similar practice questions the day
before.
Congratulations to the both of you!
23rd September 2008, 10:57 #105 (permalink)
Lasiorhinus
Do a course somewhere! I found the UNSW course to be sufficient to pass, if a little too quick in the delivery.
All the material came so fast it was hard to keep ones head above water. Took me a good near week and a half
just to be able to 'get it'. What was good was the questions covered in class were way harder than the exam so
prepared one well.
My ATPL Performance exam had some stuff from Flight Planning in it so you may want to do this one next.
Good luck.
28th September 2008, 04:29 #113 (permalink)
Lasiorhinus
http://www.aft.com.au
28th September 2008, 14:00 #116 (permalink)
ryda
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 41 Careful with the calculator, I think some use the Aurora while others use Canon. The ones that
Bankstown use, are the Canon LS-82Z which can be bought from O fficeworks for around $15.
BTW FRQ I got that PNR you were talking about for a return to YPAD via a difference track. In the last 20
minutes I re did it and changed by answer and got it right. Had to be one of the worst worded ones ive seen so
far. "ignore lateral distance blah blah blah". I just flew out NO, then dropped down to the return route on the
way back which was pretty much the same distance anyway.
When I did the course with LS at UNSW he said that came about because someone (angry shaking of fists in
their general direction) pointed out to CASA that the AD - PH routes are mostly one way tracks, and that you
cannot return to AD on a one way AD to PH track. Basically it means assume that as soon as you have the DP
or Eng Fail or whatever, that you magically appear on the track next to yours, heading back to AD, and don't
count the distance to get back on the other track i.e. ignoring lateral distance
5 markers
4 markers
3 markers
2 markers
1 markers
Start with the 5 markers first and work your way down.
8th October 2008, 05:21 #127 (permalink)
Cap'n Arrr
#129 (permalink)
#130 (permalink)
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#132 (permalink)
PLovett
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 878 Another 3 to go - Navigation, Systems & Air Law. Going back to Maroochydore for the first 2 of
those, I should self-study but finding the motivation hard and I like the break by going there.
Given my background I have no option but to self-study for Air Law which I hope to get done early next year.
By then I hope that I will have the last few night hours I need to actually get the licence.
Gawd I wish I had done the bleedin things back in 2000 when I had the time, opportunity and finances to do
them but back then I thought no-one will employ an old bugger like me in a transport cat aircraft. Hah!
All the best to all other PPRuNers out there battling away to get these exams done.
9th November 2008, 01:16
Cap'n Arrr
#133 (permalink)
But you MUST carry the 30 minute holding fuel. What would happen if you are about 5 minutes on the YAAA
side of the critical point, and had an engine failure. Would you have enough fuel to press on to YBBB and land,
reserves intact?
No, you wouldnt, because you have only planned OEI from your critical point. So you have to turn around and
go back to YAAA, which has a 30 minute holding requirement.
Don't try to get cheeky and use the 30 minute holding fuel for YAAA as "extra" fuel to get you to YBBB.
Doesn't work like that.
29th December 2008, 03:07 #140 (permalink)
ReverseFlight
Cheers
Vince
Flight Planning is a very interesting subjet, but IMHO, CASA makes it deliberately confusing.
6th March 2009, 02:23 #154 (permalink)
WannaBeBiggles
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Age: 29
Posts: 365 Always read the question twice. In this case it tells you the fuel at startup, so subtract Taxi, work out
climb, your MZW and PNR and return based at on the alt capability for 1-INOP and your return 1-INOP.
Mr. Hat
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,518 best trick i learned wa go to h****s on the sunny coast.!!
wondering what a realistic time-frame would be for self-studying...how long did it take you? I'm working 4
days a week so I'm thinking it may take a while before I'm up to testing standard! Cheers, P
Also, just as a side question, I followed what people said to expect for question topics, and figure that there'll be
a few CP and PNR questions in the depressurised and 1 engine in-op configurations, but are questions on gear
down scenarios and inoperative yaw damper common?
Thanks!
19th March 2010, 04:18 #170 (permalink)
White and Fluffy
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 54 Syd - Mel Gear down, maintenance ferry flight is a common question. Also think about failed gear
retraction, subsequent hold to burn fuel and return to land type questions.
Get a pack of multi coloured highlighters and every time you do a practice question use a different colour on
that route. There are only so many city pairs that they can use and you will see similar ones in the exam to the
AFT practice questions.
My advise on order of questions is to start with two 1 mark questions to calm the nerves, then do a big question,
then to rest the brain come back to another 1 mark, then back to the another big one and so on.
I have taught this front/back method of attempting the questions for a while and it seems to work for most
people. As it helps to stop you getting bogged down in the big ones if you try them first or running out of time if
you leave them until last.
The best piece of advice is to develop a process and use it the same way for every practice question you do. Be
very neat and write all the numbers down as you go on your flight plan, even for the 1 markers do a line on the
flight plan. If you try to do it all on the calculator and your answer doesn't match theirs then you have nothing to
check or go over if you havent neatly written it all down. You have pages of flight plans so use them!
The biggest issue for me in Flight Planning was having enough time to finish all the questions. If you can get
familiar with the type of calculator ASL uses, especially in terms of using the memory store and recall
functions, this will help to save time, as well as reduce the chances of keying errors. I believe AFT sells these
calculators on their online shop for this exact reason.
Posts: 544 So stoked to see this thread revived. It was this very thread and the people I met through it which got
me through the crucible that is Flight Planning.
Quote:
is there a guideline to follow to figure out if the crosswind-caused headwind component is big enough to
mention on the flightplan
I could not (and still cannot) help but correct for Effective TAS but I found that this always under two knots in
Air Speed and three knots in GS (the difference between the two comes in rounding I've decided). Unless you
are super retentive you shouldn't worry about it (likewise I found that calculating TAS I was always between 1
and 1.5 knots faster than the published answer as well as the Flight-Computer derived answer).
Long live AFPL; C ASA's most positive contribution to the safety of air navigation.
FRQ CB
19th March 2010, 16:16 #175 (permalink)
Lasiorhinus
Most of the time, for some reason, doing the exact same problem on both computers will give you two answers
one knot apart. That's close enough, it doesnt matter which one you use.
22nd April 2010, 06:00 #176 (permalink)
Aeroo
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Hiding under my bed
Posts: 25 Yeah, I know, I'm dredging up the thread again! Sat the exam for the first time earlier this week, so I
wanted to say thanks for the advice given to me, and also hand out some.
My exam had 17 questions: 2 one- markers, 1 four-marker, 3 five-markers, and the rest were 2 & 3 markers
(can't remember how many of each, sorry!). When I did practice exams, for the first one I went through the
harder questions first, then did the rest, but for other practice exams I just went through all the questions in
order, and I found I liked that way better, so that's how I handled the actual exam. Guess it depends on personal
preference! I spent a bit of time memorising the distances between the usual suspects (eg Bris - Mel 764nm),
and would you believe it - none of them came up!
One thing that I will warn you about: the missing distances that would normally be found on TAC charts and
provided to the exam sitter, were also sometimes missing off the exam question (eg. Melbourne to Canty).
Happening once I would understand, but three times I thought was a bit slack! I just used my trusty dividers to
guesstimate the distances, and luckily it seemed to have worked out, as I ended up over-excelling by 30%.
Good luck to anyone else sitting!
Oh well its just an exam, maybe next year doc's will need to be on recycled paper as a carbon offset who
knows?
#192 (permalink)
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#194 (permalink)
Probationary PPRuNer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Zealand
Age: 25
Posts: 2 TMN
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on a question I have.
I sat flight planning a couple of months ago unsuccessfully and I m re-sitting it again next week. In my last
exam I had 2-3 questions where the cruise schedule in the exam information was given as a True Mach Number.
For example cruising at 0.8 TMN and FL 350, OAT is -60C.
The flight planning data in the B727 Manual is referenced to Indicated Mach Number so obviously a conversion
is needed.
I have been through the theory notes that I am using and have found no mention of True Mach Number or how
to convert it to Indicated Mach Number. I also spent some time going through the C R3 manual.
Can anyone enlighten me on how to convert True Mach Number to Indicated using the CR3 or otherwise?
Cheers in advance,
23L
Close enough to the same thing. Certainly no difference in the exam. Genghis had a good post on this a few
years ago.
Indicated Mach versus True Mach Number
Im glad I'm done and will never have to do this bad boy again!
My down fall was practicing with a different calculator than the one they supply.
The logic was different and the buttons in different locations, hence my muscle memory was out.
My tip is to pay the $20 for the same one they supply.....it takes the pain out of redoing calclation after
calculation after pressing the wrong button or pressing the Sqrt button in the wrong sequence!!
Enjoy
Agreed. I sat it yesterday and it was a shock to the system using the supplied calculator compared to the
calculator on my iPhone... Took a few seconds on the first few calculations to make sure I was hitting the right
buttons. If you don't have access to that calculator then I suggest running through a few practice calculations on
the calculator during the practice exam time just to get your eye in. Having said that I passed, what a range of
emotions to go through between hitting that submit button and the result coming up!
Also its been said before, but make sure you're on top of your time management. I didn't manage mine too well
and only had a minute or two to go through some of the answers I wasn't sure on.. In that short time I managed
to find a CP question where I had pulled the wrong fuel flow from the book and subsequently had put down the
wrong answer.. Leave time at the end to check your work
57GoldTop
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 41 You don't need traffic holding for abnormal ops.
Traffic holding requirements differ to wx holding requirements.
Page 1-16A of the POH
Abnormal Ops - Holding required
.
.
.
.
1) Traffic holding - need not be carried.
Where an abnormal op is considered to be 1-INOP, DP, YD INOP , TS extended and LG extended. Page 1-21