ene in tis process by miakng it ler fromthe outset hat nd pechaps even by txplaing wht it means to place someone in the roe af "as tive inormat," Ie must be sated that professors cannot inter sexe) euce dues oot make one at exper ene f they als see sides a6 atk informants” Often, “hues become to myelice comping about che lack of Inchon anesher protesorscless For example, a course on ial an poiial shout in the United States includes no ‘work women, When scents complain to Ube teacher about this lack of incision, dey ave told to make suggestions of nati that canbe vaed, Thsoften places an unfair burlen fo astudent It also snes it seem that is ky important to there is soracone complaining. Inressinghy andes bias udenrsace making complaints because they vant a democrs icunbiased thera arts education ‘Mlicuuralism compels educators to recognize the nar ‘ow nandavies that have shaped the way knee is share forces wall 0 recogeize our complicity in secejting and perpetuating hisses af any kind, Students ace lw the dassoom. eoge! n bres vung barriers 0 knowing. They ae wing to Surtender to the wander of releatning apd learning ways of Loving dag agaist the gran. When we, as educators, lost peg ‘a nubicabtoral won, we can give wuadents the education ‘hep essa esere, We cam teac i ways that transfor omssinusss, crating elinate of free expression tat is Ue sy tbe radically changed by our recognition ‘see of aru ibertory Hberal arts education. Paulo Freire This 62 pay datogue with syse, Goria Watkins, slking With bell hooks, my writing wiee. I wanted o speak about Pau and his workin this way fr iafforded mean iacy— 3 familirty—t do not fad i posible to achiee in the es, And here I have found! away to share the sweetness, the sa arity Leth sbom Wen Reading your books Aint Fa Woman: Slack Woo and amnion, Reins Thy: Frm Marg Ct, nl Fal Sng Buc, i is clear that your development 28 a esta thinker has been greatly influenced by the work of Paulo reine. Ca you speak about why hs work bas touched your life so deeply? a ones before Limet Paulo Freire, Id learned x0 couch rom his work, earned new way of thinking about social eilitydhat were Hoerstory. Often wher avers ston aang Tapes lana profesors read Breie, they approach hie work fn a vipers standpoint, were as they rea they sce "wo locations in the work, che subject position of Freire ike educator gwhora they are eften more interested in han she ideas oF subjets he speaks about) and the ‘pprese/mrginalized groups be speaks about. fa ¥la- Aion fo these tap subjet postions, they postin ther sehevas observers, at outsiders. When I came to Frees ork, scat that momen in my fife when Iwas beginning ‘question deeply snd profoundly the poties of dom: tition, the impaet of yam, sexi, class exploitation, and the Kind of domestic colonization that takes place in tte Cited States, HTelt myself 19 be deeply enti ith the mangialized peasants he speaks aboat, oF with ny blak Dretiers and ser, say comades ia Gunes Bissau. You se, Iwas coming fom a rural southern black cxperience, nwo the universi, and fad lived dhrough, ‘estroge for racial deseycepation at wasin sistance without icing 2 poliieal language to srcale that pooces, Paulo was ane of the thinkers whose wark give ‘ea langyge. He made me think deeply about the coe sMjuton of 30 ieniy i sesitance, These was dis one senience of Feire's that becsne a rewohwionary mantra fay mes "We cannot enter the struggle ss objects in order later tn bocime subjects” Really iti dieue to fine ‘outs adnate explain how this wstentent as ke forked dour—and € struggled within myself ce find the esau that struggle engaged vein a proces of ert cal though that-yas ransormative. This expevience posted Freize ia my mine and ear ava challenging feacher whose work furthered my owe stage agains {he cloning process—the colonizing mindset, In your work, you indizate an ongoing concern with Lie process vf ecolonization, partcuatly as it seus aot a Aiican Anerians ling within the white saprenacst euluie of the United Sizes, De you see a tik bee raven the process af decolonntion ond Feiss focus on "consclentiaton’? ‘Oh, solutes, Becnase dhe eslonizng forces are w pow erful bv this white supcemest capitalist pawiarhy, seems tha black people are alvays having ta renew come itneat to adecolonizing potial proces tht should be ferndamentsl to ourfiesand i not, And so Freze’s work, in is global understanding of iberaon srgale,alvays ‘cauphasizs that hiss the ingortaat nial stage of rans {oomation—Ihat Historie morsent when one begins to \ink erty about the self and identi in relation to ‘one's pola circumstance Again, isis one of the con: ‘cepts in Freres work—and ir my own work—that fe fre- ‘quendy misunderstood by sealer in che United States Many dimes people wil ay ta me that ¥sgem «2 be sig (esting that is encugh for lviduate ta change how they think And yousee, even heir use ofthe eng els lus something about the ute they Bring to this ques- ion. eas apatoning sound ave hit does not convey any heactel understanding of how a change in attitude (iheugi nota completion ef any tansformative process} «a be significant for eolonized/oppresel people. Again and again Frere as had co remind eeders athe never spoke ofconscentiraionasan end elt stubs 8s ined by meaning pracy In many diferent ways rein sticlates this. ee when be alisabou he neces sy ot vesting in praxis what we hoowin consciousness: ‘hacneans ad ets estas that haan beings do nocgetbeyord te eancetesmition, the conden in which they fine temaeles, only tei coracouanessce hai earnt— however good those intentions ye, The pow priv cuee/se/60on: ‘Sis that ad er ecendg de narrow Timi of fey call in which C8 locke er the Ap 1864 coup det wee vot ffeten congo ny endiion ar pane} Setsatwap in he cll deprived of Redon, even {could ng the out werd Bot on the flier hands the proce by not Blind scion, lepine of invention oF of fay. es ation fant eticcion. Mex and wemea ace human beings besine whey afe historically eonsivted su eingy of pri, sad Jn the pocesthey ve Tesime enale of ansoriing de wool song aeaning Think that so many progsesive poles movements ail tw have fisting impact io the United Sites precisely because there not enough understanding of “pangs ‘Thsiwhat tues me doout Antonio Fauna asserting Lamang to Question that ‘one of te things ve Istria Che in one ‘ay efleion on vey He was tat rat Folie eliglons + tora statements did not Hike cocsete shape in act by eid We wre cevoluionane i dhe arse, no ia Out Aly Us ce to soe ese that in Our facut es, we should day to day He tw at, {v alwayy astounds me when progressive people act a though ics somehow 2 auie moral postion to bebeve ‘a ou es mat be «ving example of oar politics. “Uhre ave may realersof Freie wna fel that te sexs fanguage fais work, whieh went unchanged even alter the ehakecge of contemporary feminist movement ax! Tryin evtique, isa negative example, When you fit read Bveire what was your cesponse tothe sexism of his Tague? ow Pure ° ‘There has never been a moment ven reading Friee ‘hat have wot eemained aware of act only te seis of the language butte way he like other progressive Third World polieal landers, inelactass, ciscal dhinkere such as Fanon, Memmi, etc) const ets 2 phlloceatc paradigm of Hberation wherein fredom and the expe- rience of patriarchal manhood are always linked as Ahough they are ane andthe sume, Fore thisis alas sowce of sgn for represents «bli spot in the vision of men who hare profound insight Aid yet, 1 never wish to see critique ofthis blind spot oversaw saayone' (and feminist in particular) capacity to learn from the insights Thisis why iis dca forma tsp about sexism in Frere's work itis dificult to find 3 hae ‘goage thar offersa vay to fame etique and yet maintain the recogaiion of ll hats valued and respected in the ‘work, Hescems fo me tha che binary opposition chat so mach embedded in Western dheugbt and language sakes near impossbe to project complex esponse. Ficite's sexism is ncented bythe language in bis eatly ‘works, notwithstanding that there & 40 much that c= tains lkecatory. There is no need io apologie fr the sexism, Freire's own model of crea pedagogy invites 2 sical imercogation of chs flaw in the work. Bur critical Sntorrogation snot the same as dismissal So you ave ao contadiction in your valuing of Freire’: Worksind your comunisment to Fermnist scholarship? es feminist dbinking that empower me to engage in 2 carte eridque of Frciee’s work (which needed 50 ‘alas a young reader of hs work I did not passively sorb the worldview preseated) and yet theve are many fther standpoins fom which T approach his work that enable me to experience ts yale, iat make i posible {or hat work to touch me a the verycove of my being, In priv cuee/se/60o a ecto Fags talking wich acadensic Sensis (osualy white wormen) ts fe they must either dismiss or devave the work of Freve hecinse af sexism, Lae eeaely haw oa different resumes ave shaped by the sandpoine dat we bring the york, Lease to Beene dist, dying of eis (in that iy Oa the colonized, wengializes! subject who Bs el Cini of tw to Break the fold ofthe stants quo, who Inns for ease, is needy, dir), ad 1 outed in is vk (and the work of Mateo X, Fan, et) 8 5 1 {uss a hist To ave Work that promoes one’ ibe ction is wach pert) git that it does nox mater so Il he gi saved, Think of she work aster that ‘ouinnannie ir, Becaie you ave tie fou 20 prod to ests the dtd be nourished by the water: rn ths s experience dat corresponds very much ‘tie wa india of prvlege sespond to the use syne in Use Fst Word eamtent When you are peiwleged, Ting in i ofthe richest eoutes inthe word, you cat sist resources. And you ca especial jas your eispom {of someting that you consider impure. Laok at what ‘st people do wi water in this coun. Many people [burhiase special water because they consider tap water ioeaoind of couve this purchasing isa usury. Even ‘a aly co ee the wae that come trough tbe tap ‘neler med bya enpealist consumer pe spective (ream expresso of aur and ots simply gous othe condition of water IF we approach the Avinkng of water that comes from the tap Gem a global Derspective we wold have to tak about i llfereaty. We ‘woul hase te consider wha de vst majriy af dhe peor ple io the mld who ae tisty must do to obtain water, Pato work has ben Living water for ne. “Toosbav extent do yw think your experience as au A oo) Ameria has made it possble for you to rete © Fieve rk? ‘As Lalceady suggested, growing pina ral azeain the agrarian south, anong black people who worked the land, I felt intitatey linked w the discussion of peasant lien Freizes werk se is elation to itera. You brow there are no bistory books that veal tell he story of hoe “dificult the pies of everyiay Iie was for back people in the cacy segregated sou when so many fos dic notseid and were soften dasendentan rie people to explain, to read, 1 wite. And Las among a generation learning those skill, with at accesbilty to eduestion ‘that was still uew. The emphasis om eucation as necer ‘219 for liberation that black people made in very and then on imo reconstruction ‘afore our lives, And x0 Preire’s emphasis en education asthe practice of fee dor made such iemediate sease te me. Conscious of the nee for Brerayfrom gilnood [took wth ae to the ersiy memories of ceacng 4 fll, of weit fo folks. T120k with me memories of black teachers he segregated sehool stem who lad been evtesl pedar gogues providing ws Hberatry paradigans. 1 was this carly experience of 2 Bberacry education ip Booker T Wishington and Crispus tues the black schools my formative years, that made wee forever dististed with the education received in pexdomniaantly white seings. ‘And it was educatars like Frece who affirmed that the silficlties¥ had with the banking ster of edueaton, ‘witha edeation that in nowy aves my social eal. jy, were an important ertique, Returning to he discs Sion of feminisa and sexi {wat 0 say Usa I felt ntl include! in Puasa of the Opprasat, one of the First Feeve books Tread tawny that Teves fel: mse in wy experience as a rural ack pesson—inchaded in tke fies feminist books J tea, works like The Fesnine gig sed Born Feats Uo toe United States we do not talk enough about the way n which elas Asipes cur priv cuee/se/60owe M m perspective cote. Since so many ofthe eaey Feminist, books sly reflected a cersin type of white bourgecis sealing, this work did not toch many black women eply: ot because we did not recognize the cowsmon eer alles were niedited by profound differences in ovr neck es wonten shared but because those common ities ere by the polities of race ad clas Cant yu speak abot the celationship between Frize's workand the development of your work as feminist theo Unlike feminist thinkers who make 2 between the Work of feminist pedagogy and Freire’ ork ane thought, for me these wo experiences con verge. Deeply commited to feist pedagogy 1 nd that uch ke weaving atest, ave taken threads of Paul's work and woven i ino that version of feminist plagogy I believe sy work writer and teacher embed ies. Again, 1 want to asert dati was the intersecion of Paul's thought and the lved pedagogy of the many Mack teachers of my gQDwoed (most of them wonten) vwhu saw dhemaelves as having 9 Uberatory mission 1 edn cae ws fv a manner that woud prepare us effectively Desist racem and white epremacy that has had a pro foun impact oo my thinking about the set and practice ‘of teaching And though these black women did aot tpendy advocate femiias (iC they ever new the word) the vey Hock that they nsined on academic excellence sn ope crteal thought for young black femeles was an ven practice, Be mote specific bout the work you Rave done ts bas ‘yer in uenced by Free Let ine say dh Tote Aine Weman: Blak Wie an Penni hen Losin undengradate (hough twas not publshed until years later). This hook was the concrete rasiesition of my struggle withthe quertion of moving frorn object wo subjet—the very queation Pane had posed, And tis 0 easy, now tit many, if net mos, emi hse scholars ave wing to recxgnize the impact of 3¢e sna lash a Scr that shape ferale eat, or every lone to forget that early on fem movement was:nota location that wekomed the sadist struggle of Black women to theorize our subjeaivigy Freize's work (and that of maay other teachers aired my vight 3 a subs ject in esitance to define ry eel His writing gave me ‘way to place the politics of ris ip the United States inva global context whevein I sould see my fate lrked ‘with that of colonized black people everywhece sug lig to decclonite, co ransfoan society. More than it ‘he work of snany white bourgeois feminist chiakers, there wis always in Palo’ wos recognition of the s+ ject position of those mon ds sulfer the gravest weight of opprestive Forces (ih the webised,thove who exception of his oat acknowledging abays the specifi seendered cealies of oppresion and explotation), Tit was a standin which afemel my ow desire to work From a lived understanding a° the lives et poor black ‘women. There bas been only n recent yeas a body of scholarship in the United States that des not look atthe Fives of lack people dhru be goods Tens, funda rental radical acholarship thst iggeats tat indeed the experience of black peopl, blick females, wight tel hae ‘moze about the experience of women i gener simply an analysis that lols i, foremost nd abvaye at those women who reside i prifleged locations, One of the reasoas that Paale's book, Pelagugy iv Prses: The Lats ta Cane Bisse, has bea important for my works ie example af how a privileged critical thinker approaches sharing Anowledge and rexowees with hove who ae in need, Heres Poulo atone of those insight ements He wre:am tings aes Auden lp anc all who ore avaed tap each sierra, growing coger in ‘he cami ff founders he vee hc ty sek rassovtn, Only bvong ste Jrasie-in ic hee wb hep and thos fe being helped help eachother simalanconsty rsa thee af Relig Became fe om the Glavine in wich the helper dominates the tip, th American society wheve the inetletoal~and speci cay the luck imellectialbas often, assimilated and tetryed relatcary concern in he iene! of ai taining cass pover i is crucial andl necessary for ist igen black itllectals wo Rave an ethics of sug ha “nous ne ceitonsp to dose black people wh have hot hut eves to ways OF Raowing share! 3 Yeatins or peg CGamsent, i you wil, on Bee's wilingoess to be cri sie epoca by Femina tnkers fits mel of Paulo's work there isa generous spi a subiy of openminedness that Fee is often nisin From inielleeta and acadensic arenas U.S.socety ane Feminist cites have ot heen an exeepiion. OF course, Panto seins to grow tore open as he ages. t00, fel nyse move srangly commited co « practice of open Inindetness, nilingness 1 engage etquess Lage, and Pink he wy experience more profound the grow Sing in the world, eve in soalled “ier”, us tat oor fives, Ove wok ast be aa exanyple fh Eecive’s work in the [ae Few years there are many espinses to the eiques made of bis writing Al there is that lovely cxitiesl exchange between Nin ane Areas Finer in Fearming & Quon or dhe question of Lan ge, on Pao’ work in Guines Bisa. earn fro this ow: ‘example, ftom seeing his wilingness to sieaggle non Aetensively in print, naming shortoominge of insight, ‘changes in thought new cecal elections. ‘Whar was ike for you to interact personally with Paulo Freie? For me our meeting mas nero made mea devoted student aa comrade of Paul's fore, Let se tll you this sory Some yeas ago now Palo was ited to the UniersityofSanta Crus, where Int then a student ad teacher. Fe came todo workstops with Thied West stu- dents and faculy and to give public lectare, I had not near. even a whisper that he vas coming, shough tany folks kes how nnich his work meant to me. Then mie ToT Found out cha he was coinguy to e tole chat all the alotswere fled for patkipatts in the workshop. 1 protested A in the enscing dialogue, Iwas tod tha £ Imad not been invited to the wars meetings fo eae Dat Toyoeld distupt the discussion of more important issues by raising feminist rtiques. Ev though Twasallowes to participate when someane érepped ext at the lst mi ‘le, my hear was hea becane sleeady [felt tha there Ina been this sexist atlempe & cont my vice, 0 c= two} the encounter So, of cour, this create a war wth= in myer because indeed didnt to interrogate Palo Freire personally about the sexism in Bis wook. And so With courte, [forged ahead st the meeting, Lined tl jodie spoke ans we raising these questions snd devalued their importance, Paulo intervened 1 say ta hese questions were crucial and addres them, “Truth, loved him at this moment for exempliving by his actions the prieipes of is work, Se mach would have ebanged for me had he tied wo lence or bite Feminist eriique. Ae twas uxt enough forme that he med bis “exis,” [want ta Snow why he hae not on, priv cuee/se/60ht this aspect earlier worke changed, be responded to ia wig by itn, And he spoke then about making nye of pubic effort to speaand write on these ists thes em eve ater eS. ore you more alected by his presence than His work? ‘Nsuiher pies teicher of mine (even though we have not ner} & the Vietnamese Buddhise soonk ‘Thich Nhat Han, Aud he sips ia Be igs Nov he Shove dt reat asians bring widh them something tke = hallowed aunouphere, and when we seek them out, ten we fel eaves fel ke, we oe eourage.” His words appro ately deine bat it was ike for me tobe i the presence ‘of Put. spend hows atone with bie, aking, Hite te nus, eating ie era st ny fivoste cae. Serious, “Thich Kha Ulin caches that a certain sien is borat the some time ata grec teacher, And he sys ‘when you the texcher cme and say ne Hour ‘is you bring tha mule, as hon fou ng cane the oo, The eae there ere wa kind of ighczore you bing In. When sage fe here and you sit near Hi you cel pou fet peace 1 tess U learned fom witnessing Pablo embody the pratce be deseribes i theory was profound. Heentered fe bc ay that writing ca never touel ome ane gave se consnge, I has not been easy for me todo dhe work 1 Avance ee acadeay ately think it hasbecome slit inapossible) bat one stnspiced to persevere hy dhe brite of others. Freres presence inspired ene, An it vuastvt that Li ot ee sexi ebavior on hs part only thay these vontaitons are embesced as part of the leaning proves, part of what one struggles fo change sand hat raga often prowacted. {GW Have you anything move to sy about Freire’ response to feninisteriique? ‘he Link important and siguficant that despite feist critiques otis muth, whe ate ate ars, Fao eco izes that he must ply a rein feminist movements ‘Thich declares in Lanning te Quan ihe women ae rea -hey have tosccepeoue ‘conurbation as en, a yl he worker ve fo accept our eontrbuson at fntlectuals, henge tity nd ghee Fe to pa ‘cipro the want on ofsociey. They st the women sus ave the in expos a ‘hele erage they hve teh hate ia le alo belongs us, es thaw men who dot accep te macs positon it he wo Thestne ive of rai Aran apport wil roan, Beerse I aboys that ub not gue ‘sure of my whiteness the uci i oi tm relly gains: alam aac! way. Ha, then Pave dy and argh ofighe wih ac people austin GW: Does Prete continue to inience your work? There is siot the constant mention of ir your latest work us asthe case withthe Sst books ‘Me Vogh Ly not quote Fee as sock, he sl teaches ric, When Tred Learning Gustin, usta a ine when had begun to engage ia cra elections back peo ple and exile, chere was so eux there abot dhe experi ‘ence of exile that helped me. And Tyas thrid with she ook. I had quality of cat dieu chats rue gee tae of love that Paulo speaks about in other wok, $0 it ‘ex fro realng this book tha I decide eat two be ‘uefil to doa diaogical werk with the philosopoer (Cornel West We have what Plo eal“ talking book® priv cuee/se/60ew or Teaching so Transgrass raking Bread. OF course my great wish is to do such & book with Paulo, And then for some time I uve been, working on essays on death and dying, particularly Afsi- ‘can American ways of dying. Then just quite serendip- itously I was searching for an epigraph for this Work, and came across these lovely passages from Paulo that echo so intimately my own worldview thac it wasas though, to use an ole southern phrase, "My tongue was in my friends mouth." He weites: Like to live, to Tive my life intensely, Han the ype of person who loves bis Le passionately, OF conse, someday, f will die, but T have the impression tharwhen I die, Lill die intensely as well. L will die experimenting with myself In easel: For this reason Fam going 16 die with an Jmnnnense longing for life, since this is the way 1 Ihave been living Yes! T ean hear you saying those very words. Any last com- ments? Only that words seer ta be not good enough to evoke all «hat have learned from Paulo, Our meeting had that aquility of swoetness that fingers, that lasts for a Betimes even if you never speak to the person again, see their face, you can always return in your heart to that moment when you were together to be renewed—that is 2 pro- Found solidarity: