Interview With History - by Oriana Fallaci (Interview Art Ebook)

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INTERVIEW
WITH HISTORY
Books by Oriana
Fallaci
THE USELESS SEX

PENELOPE AT WAR
THE EGOTISTS
IF THE SUN DIES
NOTHING, AND SO BE IT
INTERVIEW WITH HISTORY
INTERVIEW
WITH
HISTORY
Oriana Fallaci
Translated by John
Shep ley
HOUGHTON MIFFLIN COMPANY BOSTON
Translation Copyright
1976
by Liveright Publishing Corporation
No
part of this work may be reproany form by any means, electronic

or mechanical, including photocopying and recording, or
by any information storage or retrieval system, without
All rights reserved.
duced or transmitted
in
permission in writing from the publisher.

Library of Congress Cataloging in Publication Data
Fallaci, Oriana.
Interview with history.

Translation of Intervista con
la storia.
Reprint of the ed. published by Liveright,
Statesmen
[D412.6.F3313
I.
Interviews.
1977]
I.
New
920'.02
76-50930
ISBN 0-395-25223-7
Printed in the United States of America
V 10
York.
Title.
9876543
To my mother
TOSCA FALLACI
and
who do
to all those
not like power
Contents
Preface
1.
Henry Kissinger
17
2.
Nguyen Van Thieu
45
3.
General Giap
74
4.
Golda Meir
88
5.
Yasir Arafat
123
6.
Hussein of Jordan
140
7.
Indira
8.
Ali Bhutto
182
9.
Willy Brandt
210
Nenni
235
Gandhi
152
10.
Pietro
11.
Mohammed
12.
Helder Camara
288
13.
Archbishop Makarios
310
14.
Alexandros Panagoulis
332
Riza Pahlavi
262
Preface
This book does not claim
to
be anything but what
It
does not want to promise anything more than
document
want
to
and
straddling journalism
is:
it
mean
contemporary
direct witness to fourteen poHtical figures of
it
claims,
Yet
history.
history.
mean
also doesn't
it
be considered as a simple collection of interviews for stu-
dents of power and antipower.
do not
feel
myself to be, nor
will
ever succeed in feeling like, a cold recorder of what I see and hear.
On every professional experience I leave shreds of my heart and
and
soul;
me
stand (in fact
So
what
participate in
concerned
see or hear as
though the matter
personally and were one on which
did not go to these fourteen people with the
ought
to take a
always take one, based on a specific moral choice).
the anatomist or the imperturbable reporter.

feelings of rage,
detachment of
went with
thousand
thousand questions that before assailing them
were assailing me, and with the hope of understanding

way, by being in power or opposing
it,
made by everyone
destiny.
For example:
Does
depend on universal laws or on
it
history
is
in
what
those people determine our
or by a few?
few individuals and
nothing else?
It is
one
an old dilemma,
will ever resolve.
gerous to
diction.
fall,
It is
It
know, which no one has resolved and no
is
also an old trap in
since any answer carries within
not by chance that
many
9
try to
which
it
itself its
is
very dan-
own
contra-
compromise and main-

PREFACE
IO
tain that history
emerge
made by everyone and by
is
because they were
as leaders
are able to interpret that
bom
when he
moment. Perhaps.
says that
if
few
moment and
But those who do not
delude themselves about the absurd tragedy of

follow Pascal
a few, that the
at the right
are led rather to
life
Cleopatra's nose had been shorter
the whole aspect of the world would have been changed; they are
what Bertrand Russell feared when he wrote,
led rather to fear
"Whether
the populations of the world are to live or die rests with-
Mao
the decisions of Khrushchev,
Tse-tung and Mr. John Foster
Dulles, not with ordinary mortals like ourselves.
we
shall die.
If
wrong. In short,
we
If
they say 'Die',
cannot say he
is
cannot exclude the idea that our existence
is
they say
'live',
shall live."
decided by a few people, by their dreams and caprices, their
initia-
Those few who through ideas, discoveries, revolusome quite simple gesture the killing of a tyrant
change the course of events and the destiny of the majority.
and
tive
will.
tions, wars, or
Surely this
an atrocious hypothesis.
is
It
also
is
an offensive
we become? Impotent herds in

the hands of now a noble shepherd, now an infamous one? Mere
objects at hand, leaves blowing in the wind? And to deny this, you
may even embrace some Marxist thesis by which everything is rethought, for in that case what do
solved
by the class struggle: history-is-made-by-peoples-through-
the-class-struggle.
Marxists,
those
would not
been
bom
exist
But you soon
realize that everyday reality belies
you soon object that without Marx Marxism

(no one can demonstrate that if Marx had never
or had not written
Das
Kapital, John
Doe
or Richard
Roe would have written it). And

who make one turn instead of another are few, those who
make us take one road instead of another are few, those who bring
discouraged, you conclude that
those
and kill tyrants are few.

what those few are like: more in-
forth ideas, discoveries, revolutions, wars,

Still
more discouraged, you
telligent
than ourselves,
terprising?
Or
ask
stronger,
more enlightened, more en-
individuals like ourselves, neither better nor worse,
ordinary creatures
who do
not deserve our anger, our admiration,
or our envy?
The
*
&
question extends to the past, even a remote past of which
Bertrand Russell, Portraits from
Unwin,
1956).
we
Memory and Other Essays (London: George Allen
PREFACE
know only what
they have prescribed so that
obediently in school.
school?
lies in
Who
Who
We
We
learn
is
can give us indisputable proof of the good
and nothing about
weaknesses and
we would
lies,
it
there to say that they did not teach us
of Xerxes, Julius Caesar, or Spartacus?

their battles
We
human
their
know
faith
everything about
dimension, about their
about their intellectual and moral wavering.
have no evidence
show
to
was
that Vercingetorix
a scoundrel.
do not even know whether Jesus Christ was tall or short, light
or dark, educated or simple, whether he went to bed or not with
Mary Magdalen, whether he really said the things that Matthew,
Mark, Luke, and John
him with
Ah,
assert.
if
only someone had interviewed
a tape recorder so as to capture his voice, his ideas, his
words! Ah,
if
only someone had taken
Joan of Arc declared
her
at
down
shorthand what
in
before going to the stake! Ah,
trial
if
only someone had questioned Cromwell and Napoleon in front of
movie camera! I do not trust news handed down by word of

mouth, reports drawn up too late and that cannot be proved. Yesterday's history is a novel full of events that 1 cannot check, judga
ments that
Not
cannot contest.
today's history.
moment
happens.
it
It
Because today's history
tape in interviews with the few people
change
For
course.
its
radio,
press,
like
who
control the world or
can be transmitted immediately through the
television.
this reason
What
It
written the very
is
can be photographed, filmed, recorded on
can be interpreted, heatedly discussed.
It
journalism. For this reason
fear journalism.
other profession allows you to write history at the very
ment
it
happens and also
to
be
its
direct witness? Journalism
mois
an
Not by chance, if you are

consume you with a hundred feelings of inade-
extraordinary and terrible privilege.
aware of
it,
does
it
quacy. Not by chance,
when
find myself going
or an important encounter, does
it
seize
me
like
through an event
anguish, a fear of
not having enough eyes and enough ears and enough brains to look
and
listen
tory.
worm hidden in the wood

when say that on every
some of my soul. And it is not easy
and understand
like a
do not exaggerate, you
sional experience
to say,
leave
Oh, come now,
see,
there's
or worse you'll contribute a
no need
little
a mistake, never
mind.
to be
of hisprofesfor
me
Herodotus; for better
compose the mosaic;

make people think. And if you
stone to help
you'll provide information to help
make
PREFACE
12
The
present book was born in this way, in the span of four
those
years,
paper,
which
in
did
fourteen
the
interviews
UEuropeo. To the subjects here Hned up,
my
for
in short,
went
in
each time seeking, together with information, an answer
this spirit:
to the question of how they are different from ourselves. To meet

them was often an exhausting chore. My request for an appointment was almost always met by cold silence or a refusal (the four-
teen in the book are not the only ones
they answered yes,
had
to wait
and
tried to meet),
months
for
them
to grant
if later
me
an
hour or half hour.
When
was
keep them
ever,
finally in their presence,
for longer
became
it
game
mine our destiny are not

ther more intelligent nor
Only
If
had
to exert
Once
justified their
power. Those
who
deter-
than ourselves; they are nei-
stronger nor
more enlightened than ourmore ambitious.
more
in the rarest cases did
enterprising,
have the certainty of finding myself
make
face to face with a person born to lead us or to
road instead of another. But these cases involved
not themselves in power; in fact they had fought
own
to
how-
really better
anything, they are
the risk of their
myself
there,
reach the truth and discover that not
to
even a selective criterion
selves.
than an hour or half hour.
lives.
As
it,
whom
for those
us take one
men who
were
and fought
I
it
at
who
liked or
charmed me in some way, the moment has come to confess that

my mind remained reserved and my heart dissatisfied. Deep down I
was sorry that they were
was unable
to believe
sitting at the
them
them innocent. So much

Perhaps
it is
men
by which
because
Whether
not obey.
power
as
it
liked,
feel
themselves invested or become in-
comes from
and punish them
a despotic sovereign or
from a murderous general or
a beloved
an inhuman and hateful phenomenon.
if
they do
an elected
leader,
may
but the earthly paradise did not end on the day that
see
be mistaken
Adam
and Eve
from now on they would work by the sweat

brows and bring forth children in sorrow. It ended on the
were told by
of their
could not judge
the less as traveling companions.
vested with the right to rule over others
president,
top of the pyramid. Since
would have
do not understand power, the mechanism
women
or
as
God
that
day that they realized that they had a master
them from
who
tried to
keep
eating an apple, and, driven out over an apple, placed
themselves at the head of a tribe where
it
was even forbidden
to eat
PREFACE
Of
pork.
course, to live in a group requires a governing authority;
otherwise there
human
me precisely that of needing an authority to
One can never know where a chief's power begins
chaos. But the most tragic side of the
is
condition seems to
govern, a chief.
and ends; the only sure thing is that you cannot control him and
that he kills your freedom. Worse: he is the bitterest demonstration
that absolute freedom does not exist, has never existed, cannot
Even
exist.
look for
feel
and
this,
it
necessary to behave as though
is
Whatever the
it.
if
also that apples are
same degree
that
Still
born
how much
more
to
to
power,
cially those
who
who
to
criticize
rebel against
am
convinced of
be picked, that meat can even
remind him or her
do not understand power,
who oppose
and
price.
should warn the reader
be eaten on Friday.
existed
it
power,
who
that, to the
do understand those
contest power, espe-
power imposed by
brutality.
have
always looked on disobedience toward the oppressive as the only
way to use the miracle of having been born. I have always looked
on the silence of those who do not react or who indeed applaud as
the real death of a woman or a man. And listen: for me the most
beautiful monument to human dignity is still the one
saw on a
I
the Peloponnesus.
hill in
It
was not
a statue,
three letters that in Greek signify No: oxi.
dom
had written them among the
cupation, and
for thirty years that
trees
No
it
was not
Men
but
a flag,
thirsting for free-
during the Nazi-Fascist oc-
had remained
unfaded
there,
by the sun or rain.
Then
stroke of whitewash.
But immediately, almost magically, the sun
and
rain
letters
the colonels had obliterated
it
with a
had dissolved the whitewash. So that day by day the three
reappeared on the surface, stubborn, desperate, indelible.
Truly, then, this book does not claim to be anything but what
does not want to promise anything more than
is.
It
is,
a direct testimony
by fourteen
political figures of
it
it
claims, that
contemporary
each with his or her symbolic meaning and alignment in a

symbolic sequence. (Because of this, I did not want to bring any inhistory,
up to date, not even the older ones, nor to re-elaborate

them, thereby spoiling their value as documents that crystallized
terview
the
moments
they were recorded.
wanted
to leave
them intact in
Golda Meir
their genuineness, without worrying over the fact that
is no longer prime minister, Willy Brandt no longer chancellor,

Thieu no longer dictator of South Vietnam, and Alexandres
PREFACE
14
Panagoulis no longer a persecuted hero of the Resistance to the

Greek colonels. But while reading it, you should keep in mind that
No
on
that reappears, stubborn, desperate, indelible,

a hill in the
among
the trees
Peloponnesus.
ORIANA FALLACI
INTERVIEW
WITH HISTORY
Henry Kissinger
This too famous, too important, too lucky man,
Superman, Superstar, Superkraut, and who
whom
they call
stitches together para-
doxical alliances, reaches impossible agreements, keeps the world
holding
its
breath as though the world were his students at Harvard.
This incredible, inexplicable,
Mao
it,
Tse-tung when he
who meets
when he feels like
unbearable personage,
likes, enters
the Kremlin
wakens the president of the United
States
and goes into
his bed-
room when he thinks it appropriate. This absurd character with

horn-rimmed glasses, beside whom James Bond becomes a flavorless creation.
He
does not shoot, nor use his
speeding automobiles
ends wars, pretends

still,
who
is
Books are
to
fists,
Henry Kissinger?
written about him
as
about those great figures
whom
now digested. Books like the ones

and cultural background, written by admiring university
illustrating his po-
history has by
litical
nor leap from
James Bond, but he advises on wars,

change our destiny, and does change it. But
like
leagues, or like the
one celebrating
his talents as a
col-
seducer written
by a French newspaperwoman with an unrequited passion. With
With the French

make love. He alludes to them
all with a vexed grimace and dismisses them with a scornful wave
of his plump hand. "They understand nothing," "None of what she
his university colleagues he never cared to speak.
newspaperwoman he never cared
says
is
to
true."
17
l8
The
story of his hfe
is
the object of research bordering
on
a cult,
simultaneously paradoxical and grotesque, so everyone knows that
he was born
Furth,
in
Germany,
in 1923,
son of Louis Kissinger, a
high-school teacher, and Paula Kissinger, a housewife. Everyone
knows
that his family
is
Jewish, that fourteen of his relatives died in
the concentration camps, that together with his father and mother
and
his brother
York, that
at
Walter he
fled in
that time he
was
1938
to
fifteen
London and then

years old
to
New
and was called
Heinz, not Henry, nor did he know a word of English. But he

learned
clerk
it
and
very quickly, and while his father worked as a post-office
mother opened
his
studies that
he was admitted
a bakery shop,
to Harvard,
he did so well
at his
where he graduated with
honors with a thesis on Spengler, Toynbee, and Kant, and
became
later
a professor.
Everyone knows that at twenty-one he was a soldier in Germany,

where he was one of a group of GI's selected by test and judged to
have an IQ close to genius, that because of this (and despite his
youth) he was entrusted with the job of organizing the government
German
without a government. Indeed
it
was
in Krefeld that his passion for politics flowered, a passion that
was
of Krefeld, a
to
city left
be gratified by his becoming an adviser to Kennedy and Johnson,
later the presidential aide to
until
he came
And
to
Nixon,
finally his secretary of state,
be considered the second most powerful
man
in
some maintained that he was

much more, as is shown by the joke that for years made the rounds
of Washington. "Just think what would happen if Kissinger died.
Richard Nixon would become president of the United States!"
They used to call him Nixon's mental wet nurse. They had even
coined a wicked and revealing surname for him and Nixon: Nixinger. They said that Nixon could not do without him; that he wanted
him always at his side on every trip, for every ceremony, every official dinner, every vacation. Above all, for every decision. If Nixon
decided to go to Peking, thereby dumbfounding both the right and
left, it was Kissinger who had put the idea in his head. If Nixon determined to go to Moscow, thereby confounding East and West, it
was Kissinger who had suggested it. If Nixon announced reaching
an agreement with Hanoi that would abandon Thieu, it was Kissinger who had persuaded him to take this step. Thus Kissinger
America.
already at that time,
acted as an ambassador, a secret agent, a negotiator, a Mazarin, a
Henry Kissinger
who
Metternich, a veritable president
own
19
used the White House as his
house.
Kissinger did not sleep there, since he wouldn't be allowed to
women, you would have
bring in
said (he had not, as yet, married

Nelson Rockefeller). For nine years he had
of his amorous adventures and he carefully
a former assistant of
created
myth
nourished
always allowing himself to be seen with actresses,
it,
starlets, singers,
models,
women
and million-
journalists, dancers,
though many did not believe such a

myth and the skeptics claimed that he couldn't care less about these
Insatiable as a bull,
airesses.
women, he behaved
this
way
as a
game, conscious of the
fact that
it
increased his glamour, his popularity, his photographs in magaIn this sense,
zines.
man
he was the most talked-about
too,
in
America, and the most fashionable. His thick glasses had created a
fashion, his curly hair, his gray suits and blue neckties, his decep-
ingenuous
tively
Then Nixon
secret
"This
air of
one who has discovered
unmasked and defeated by
resigned in shame,
Putsch that nobody
Some
will ever consider a Putsch.
the end of Kissinger too." Well,
is
remained where he was,
pleasures.
life's
it
was
Kissinger
not.
a powerful secretary of state
still
said,
and the
new mental wet nurse of Ford, as unshakable and indestructible as

a rock, or a cancer. Had he managed this devious Putsch? Was he
irreplaceable, as the new president had intimated while begging
him to stay? The mystery arose and is left to history.
After all, the whole Kissinger case is a mystery. The man himself,
as well as his unparalleled success,
is
unexplained. As often
happens when someone becomes very popular and very important,

the more you know about him, the less you understand. Besides,
he protects the incomprehensibility of
trying to explain
it
becomes
phenomenon
his
so well that
a fatiguing exercise bordering
on the im-
possible. Very rarely does he grant personal interviews; he speaks only

at press
that
conferences arranged by the administration.
will
never understand
days after receiving

sions.
Hanoi
He
in
says
it
my
why he
letter,
was because of
February 1969.
me on one
the meeting,
to
do the
swear
had entertained no
interview with General
be
so.
But the
fact
illu-
Giap
in
remains that
he changed his mind and decided to
condition: that he would
was
agreed to see me, scarcely three
which
my
may
It
after his extraordinary "yes,"
see
in
And
talking,
tell
me
nothing. During
and from what
said
he would
20
me
decide whether to grant
Assuming he
the interview or not.
could find the time. Yes, the time was found, the appointment
made
Thursday, November
for
2,
when
1972,
saw him
arrive out
of breath and unsmiling, and he said, ''Good morning. Miss Fallaci."
Then,
me
without smiling, he led
shll
into his elegant office,
of books and telephones and papers and abstract paintings and
full
photographs of Nixon. Here he forgot about me, turned his back,
and began reading
a long typewritten report. Indeed
embarrassing to stand there
had
his
back
to
nered on his
And
studied me.
so short
me and
kept reading.
However,
part.
was
It
also stupid
me
allowed
it
was
it
and ill-man-
him
to study
before he
not only to discover that he wasn't attractive
and thickset and weighed down by
sheep, but to discover also that he
little
middle of the room, while he
in the
is
head
a large
at all,
like a
by no means carefree or sure
of himself. Before facing someone, he needs to take time and pro-
himself by his authority, a frequent
tect
who
try to
Or by
rude.
phenomenon
conceal their shyness and by this

really
effort
in
shy people
end by seeming
being rude.
meticulously and
me and
he
turned
After reading the typewritten report

to judge
by the time
me
vited
to
sit
it
took
down on
him
carefully,
to
finally
the couch.
Then he
armchair, higher than the couch, and from this privileged and
tegic position
examining
me
of
my
whom
a pupil in
at
me
stra-
questions in the tone of a professor
he has
little
confidence.
mathematics and physics teacher
Florence, an individual
by staring
me
began to ask
in-
took the adjacent
at
He reminded
the Liceo Galilei in
me
He even had
hated because he enjoyed frightening
from behind
ironically
his spectacles.
same baritone, or rather guttural, voice as this teacher, and the

same way of leaning back in the armchair with his right arm outthe
stretched, the gesture of crossing his legs, while his jacket

tight over his
stomach that
it
was so
looked as though the buttons might
pop.
If
he intended
The nightmare
at
of
to
make me
my
if
don't,
about General Giap. "As

views.
The
reason
granting you one
is
at ease,
schooldays assailed
each of his questions,
swer? Because
ill
he'll
me
you,
perfectly.
such a degree
to
Oh, God,
flunk me.
I've told
why
that
thought.
he succeeded
will
His
first
know
that,
the an-
question was
never give personal inter-
I'm about to consider the possibility of

I
read your interview with Giap. Very in-
Henry Kissinger
What
teresting.
time
Httle
is
Giap
He
like?"
at his disposal, so
had
asked
sum
to
21
it
with the
it
all
"He seemed to me
same time, but actually
up
tive
remark, and answered,
vial
and arrogant
as
day.
It
was
about him.
less
almost an
an interview than
what he
Still
To minimize
told
me
French snob.
Jo-
boring as a rainy
couldn't get excited
turned out to be true."
American was
enamored of him as they were
ago of Rommel. The expression "French snob" therethey were
all a little
Perhaps he did not understand
fore left Kissinger bewildered.
The
a lecture.
of having
the figure of Giap in the eyes of an
insult;
thirty years
at the
air
in a single effec-
revelation that he
was "as boring
as a rainy
it.
day" disturbed him;
he knows that he himself carries the stigma of being a boring type,

and his blue eyes flashed twice with hostility. The detail that struck
him
the most,
however, was that
gave Giap credit for having
predicted things correctly. Indeed he interrupted me:
"Why
true?"
Giap had announced in 1969 what would happen in

1972. "For example?" For example the fact that the Americans
would withdraw little by little from Vietnam and would end by
abandoning a war that was costing them more and more money
and had soon brought them to the brink of inflation. The blue eyes
flashed again. "And what, in your opinion, was the most important
thing that Giap told you?" His having essentially disavowed the Tet
offensive by attributing it to the Vietcong alone. This time he did
not comment. He only asked, "Does he think that the initiative was
started by the Vietcong?" "Perhaps, yes. Dr. Kissinger. Even children know that Giap likes tank engagements la Rommel. In fact
the Easter offensive was carried out la Rommel and ..." "But
he lost!" he protested. "Did he really lose?" I replied. "What makes
you think that he didn't lose?" "The fact that you have accepted an
agreement that Thieu doesn't like, Dr. Kissinger."
In an attempt to draw some information out of him, I added in a
distracted tone, "Thieu will never give in." He fell into my little
replied that
trap.
He
trated
Thieu.
He has to." Then he concenHe asked me what thought of

had never liked him. "And why have you
Kissinger, you know better than I. You
answered, "He'll give
on Thieu,
told
him
in.
his mare's-nest.
that
never liked him?" "Dr.
tried for three days, or rather four, to get
This drew from him

spect,
is
surprising.
a sigh of assent
Kissinger
knows
and
something out of him."

a
grimace
perfectly
how
that,
in retro-
to control
his
22
features;
seldom happens that
it
feehng. But during that
himself Every time
Httle effort to control
Hps betray an idea or
his eyes or
made
meeting, for some reason he
first
said
something against
Thieu, he nodded or smiled with complicity.

After
Tri.
me
Thieu he asked
Of the
first
Of
known him. "Was he
the second he said he was sorry not to have

really a great general?" Yes,
confirmed, a great general and a cou-
whom
rageous one, the only general
and
Do Cao
about Nguyen Cao Ky and
he said that he was weak and talked too much.
into combat.
For
this too,
had seen go
to the front lines
suppose, they had assassinated
him. Here he pretended astonishment. "Assassinated? By

"Certainly not by the Vietcong,
didn't crash because
it
was
hit
Dr.
Kissinger.
by mortar
fire,
The
whom?"
helicopter
but because someone
had tampered with the blades. And certainly Thieu did not shed
any tears over that crime. Nor did Cao Ky. A legend was being
up around Do Cao Tri, and he spoke so badly of Thieu and

Ky. Even during my interview with him, he attacked them mercilessly." And this answer disturbed him more than the fact that I
later criticized the South Vietnamese army.
This is what happened when he asked me about the last time I
had been to Saigon, about what I had seen, and I replied that I had
seen an army that wasn't worth a fig, and his face assumed a
built
perplexed expression. Indeed, since
on an
act,
find out these things.
me
question
ments, or as
flatter
matic?
if
with
was sure that he was putting
You who
are the
as if the fate of the
he could not
diabolical,
live
me you
need
me
to
my
irony and continued
cosmos depended on my judgHe knows how to
without them.
hypocritical
or
should
say
diplo-
finesse.
After fifteen minutes of conversation,

for
tell
most well-informed person
But he did not understand
in the world!"
to
joked. "Dr. Kissinger, don't
having accepted
this
when
was biting
absurd interview from the
posed to interview, he forgot a
little
man
my
nails
was sup-
about Vietnam, and, in the
me which
heads of state had

word "impress.") Resigned, I
listed them. He agreed with me primarily on Bhutto. "Very intelligent, very brilliant." He did not agree about Indira Gandhi.
"Did you really like her?" He didn't even try to justify the unfortunate choice he had suggested to Nixon during the Indo-Pakistani
tone of a zealous reporter, asked
impressed
me
most.
(He
likes the
Henry Kissinger
when he
conflict,
23
who were
sided with the Pakistanis
to lose the
war against the Indians who were to win it. Of another head of
state, of whom I had said that he did not seem to me highly intelligent but that I had liked him very much, he said, ''It's not intelligence that's
important in a head of
counts in a head of
state
The
state.
quality that
strength. Courage, shrewdness, and
is
strength."
I
consider this remark one of the most interesting things he said
me, with or without the tape recorder.
to
The man
personality.
loves strength above
and strength. Intelligence
ness,
himself possesses
it
illustrates his type, his
It
interests
Courage, shrewd-
all.
him much
less,
abundantly, as everyone says. (But
though he
is it
a matter
The intelligence that

counts, as far as I'm concerned, is the humane kind, that which is
bom from the understanding of men. And I wouldn't say that he
of intelligence or of erudition and cunning?
has that kind of intelligence. So on this subject one ought to go a
The
I
Assuming
deeper.
little
Taken by
with the cease-fire?"
had written
would be
on.
a great
"And
worth the trouble.)
examination emerged from
"What do you
really didn't expect.
what
it's
my
phase of
last
a question that
think will happen in
surprise,
in a dispatch just
told
him
Vietnam
the truth.
said
published in L'Europeo: there
bloodbath, on both sides, and the war would go
I'm afraid that the
first
to
begin the bloodbath will be
He jumped up, almost offended. "My friend?"

"Well, anyway, Thieu." "And why?" "Because even before the
Vietcong embark on their slaughter, he will carry out a secret massacre in his prisons and jails. There will not be many neutralists or
many Vietcong to form part of the provisional government after the
your friend Thieu."
cease-fire.
."He
"So you too believe
frowned, looked perplexed, and finally said,
in the
bloodbath.
But there
will
be inter-
Dacca there were the

Indians. But they didn't succeed in stopping the Mukti Bahini from
What if the
know, and if
slaughtering the Biharis." "I know,
armistice were delayed for a year or two?" "What, Dr. Kissinger?"
national supervisors!" "Dr. Kissinger, even in
"What
if
my
my
example of
opinion.
tongue,
when
the armistice were delayed for a year or two?" he repeated.
perfect
about
his
And
shrewd use of
yet,
fell
flatter)':
could have wept. Indeed
looked at
him
he couldn't care
for the ploy.

I
think
less
could have bitten
my
again. "Dr. Kissinger, don't
eyes were wet
make me
suffer
24
from the thought that

singer, the
two
year,
put a wrong idea in your head. Dr. Kis-
I've
mutual slaughter
years.
And
if
anyway today, in a
on another year or two, besides
will take place
the war goes
we will have to count those from the

bombing and fighting. Do I make myself clear? Ten plus twenty
makes thirty. Aren't ten victims better than thirty?"
Stupidly unaware that he had made fun of me, 1 lost two nights
of sleep over this, and when we met again for the interview I told
him so. But he consoled me by saying that I shouldn't upset myself
the dead from that slaughter,
by feeling
guilty,
personality.
my
that
better ten than thirty,
The man
mathematical calculation was correct,
and
this
likes to
episode too illustrates his type and
be liked, so he listens to everything,
And
records everything like a computer.
some now old and
has discarded
brings
though
forth as
it
it
when
just
seems that he
it
useless piece of information, he
were valid and up
to date.
After about twenty-five minutes, he decided that
had passed
little:
was a woman.
who had
was with
It
woman,
my
him
examination. But there remained one detail that bothered
the French journalist
had had an unfortunate experigood intentions, I too were to cause
written the book, that he
my
ence. Supposing, despite
him embarrassment? At this point I

him what was on the tip of my
tell
got angry. Certainly
intention of falling in love with him. But
could
tell
couldn't
tongue, namely that
had no
him
other
That I was not going to put myself in a situation

like the one in which I found myself in Saigon in 1968 when, due
to the poor figure cut by a cowardly Italian, I had had to put on a
stupid display of heroics. That Mr. Kissinger should understand
that I was not responsible for the bad taste of a lady who happened
and
things,
to
did.
be in the same profession
for that, but, if
he
liked,
as my own. So I shouldn't have to pay

would wear a false mustache the next
time we met.
He
agreed to
nounced
let
that he
o'clock, Saturday,
ten-thirty
fortable
me
interview him, without smiling, and an-
would
November
it
4,
entered his office to
and the worst interview
chore! Every ten minutes
and
find an
hour on Saturday. And at ten

was back at the White House. At
begin perhaps the most uncom-
that
we were
have ever had. God, what a
interrupted by the telephone,
was Nixon who wanted something, asked something, petulike a child who cannot be away from its mother.
lant, tiresome,
Henry Kissinger
25
and the conversation
Kissinger answered attentively, obsequiously,
me
with
more
was interrupted, making the
Then,
difficult.
me
forth for
just at the
me
And
was Nixon. Could Dr. Kissinger look
it
in
minute? Of course, Mr. President. He jumped up, told
to wait, saying
left.
high point,
the elusive essence of his personality, one of the tele-
phones rang and again
on him
understand him still

when he was setting
effort to
he would
still
thus ended our meeting.
try to give
me
Two
later,
hours
Campbell, came
waiting, his assistant, Dick
little
time, and
while
was
still
embarrassed and
in all
explained that the president was leaving for California and that Dr.
He would not be back in Washingevening,

in
time for the first election returns,
Tuesday
ton before
but it was extremely doubtful that he would be able to conclude the
could wait until the end of November,
interview at that time. If
Kissinger had to go with him.
when many
I
would be clearer
couldn't, and anyway it wasn't worth the
things
point of trying to clarify a portrait that
emerging from
portrait
reticent
swers,
viously,
he had
much
tell
as
confusion of
sentences,
he could not
said as
irritating
me
trouble.
What was
already had before

lines,
silences.
colors,
On
anything more, and
the
me? A
evasive an-
Vietnam, ob-
am amazed
he had: that whether the war were
to
that
end or
go on did not depend only on him, and he could not allow himself
the luxury of compromising everything by an unnecessary word.
About himself, however, he didn't have such problems. Yet every
time
had asked him a precise question, he had wriggled out like
an eel. An eel icier than ice. God, what an icy man! During the
whole interview he never changed that expressionless countenance,
1
and never altered the tone of that sad, mounchanging voice. The needle on the tape recorder
when a word is pronounced in a highei or lower key. With
that hard or ironic look,
notonous,
shifts
him
and more than once had to check to make

machine was working. Do you know that obsessive,
hammering sound of rain falling on a roof? His voice is like that.
it
remained
still,
sure that the
And
basically his thoughts as well, never disturbed by a wish or fan-
tasy,
by an odd design, by a temptation of error. Everything
is
in
him
calculated, controlled as in the flight of an airplane steered by the
automatic
pilot.
He weighs
every sentence
down
to the last
ounce,
no unintentional words escape him, and whatever he says always

forms part of some useful mechanism. Le Due Tho must have
20
sweated blood in those days, and Thieu must have found his cun-
ning sorely
Kissinger has the nerves and brain of a chess
tried.
player.
Naturally you will find explanations that take into consideration

other aspects of his personality. For example, the fact that he
mistakably a Jew and irreparably a

that, as a
German. For example,
Jew and German, transplanted
country that
to a
is
un-
the fact
still
looks
with suspicion on Jews and Germans, he carries on his back a load

of knotted contradictions,
manity. In
resentments, and perhaps hidden hu-
they attribute to
fact,
him boundless gifts of imaginaCould be. But in my eyes
tion, unappreciated talents for greatness.
he remains an
sentative of the kind of
they say 'Die',
common man
entirely
we
and the most
guilty repre-
power of which Bertrand Russell
shall die. If they say 'live',
we
speaks:
'*If
shall live."
Let us not forget that he owes his success to the worst president
that the United States has ever had: Nixon, trickster
and perhaps
in his nerves
all,
to
in his
and
liar,
an undignified end. Let us not forget that he was, and
Nixon's creature.
never even have
If
Nixon had not
known
sick
mind, who has come, despised by

existed,
that Kissinger
probably
still is,
we would
had been born. For years
Kissinger had been offering his services to two other presidents, neither of
who
whom
took
him
seriously.
He was
picked up by a governor
most certainly did not shine with acute brilliance and had ar-
prominence only because of his billions: Nelson

Rockefeller. Later Rockefeller had recommended him to Nixon,
and the latter, in his ignorance, had been seduced by the pompous
erudition of the German professor. Or was it by his totalitarian
rived at political
theses
on the balance of the great powers,
a laborious dusting-off of
the Holy Alliance? Theirs was a meeting of two arrogant minds that
believed neither in democracy nor in the changing world.

that sense
it
was
And
in
a successful meeting, so successful that the ease
with which Kissinger abandoned Nixon
when
the latter
fell
into
disgrace and shame seems truly astonishing. So far as I know, he

did not even take the trouble to pay a visit to his Pygmalion who lay
"dying" in a California hospital. He didn't even bother to say a few
words
in his defense, to
assume any
responsibility for the misdeeds
of which he was surely not ignorant and that he had probably endorsed. He went over bag and baggage to his successor, Ford, and
merrily continued his career as secretary of
state.
Henry Kissinger
Let's put
it
this
way: he
is
would be nothing wrong in

(many great men and many
say almost all)
if
27
And
an intellectual adventurer.
great politicians have
he succeeded
there
an intellectual adventurer
his being
in living in his
own
been
would
time and invent-
ing something new, instead of going back to the decrepit concepts
of his erudition or to personages

stead he
is
man who
who
are in every sense defunct. In-
without understanding the
lives in the past,
present and without divining the future.

really believes
to say
ters
Much
as
he denies
it,
he
himself to be the reincarnation of Metternich, that
an individual
who depended
is
only on himself to arrange mat-
while basing his actions on secrecy, absolutism, and the igno-
rance of people not yet awakened to the discovery of their rights.
And
it is
for this reason that Kissinger's successes always turn
out to
be brief and accidental: a flash in the pan or smoke in the eyes.
It is
for this reason that in the
long run each of his undertakings, each
of his expectations,
and he commits such gross
fails,
errors.
His
peace in Vietnam did not resolve the problem or even the war. In
Vietnam,
after the armistice, the fighting
and dying continued; in

the war) there was
Cambodia (where he and Nixon had brought

never a
moment
of truce.
And
peace accords were a fraud.
home
finally
it
ended
as
it
did,
because his
fraud to save Nixon's face, bring
American boys, the POW's, withdraw the troops, and

erase the uncomfortable word "Vietnam" from the newspapers.
And his mediation between the Arabs and Israelis? Extolled and
the
publicized as
it
has been,
it
Middle East by an ounce and
has not lightened the tragedy of the

if
anything has worsened matters for
the proteges of the United States. Since he began
meddling
in that
grown and a war has broken out,

Arafat has been received at the UN as a head of state, and Hussein has been deprived of all rights to the West Bank. And the
Cyprus drama? It was precisely under Kissinger that the Cyprus
drama exploded, with all its consequences. Did Kissinger know or
not know that the fascist junta in Athens was preparing that invasion? If he knew, he was a fool not to understand the mistake. If
he didn't know, he was a bad secretary of state and even lacked the
information that he boasts of having. And, in any case, the Cyprus
drama deprived him of valuable allies: the Greek colonels. In abdicating they left Greece on the brink of war with Turkey. Constantine Karamanlis left NATO, and the Turks threatened to do likepart of the world, the conflict has
28
What American,
wise.
NATO
with two
made
Atlantic Alliance
And then on
The documents
before Kissinger, has ever found himself
countries preparing to go to war and with the

to look so ridiculous?
Kissinger
lies
the horrible stain
that have appeared in the
known
American
as Chile.
press prove,
beyond any possibility of denial, that it was Kissinger as well who

wanted the overthrow of the democratic regime in Chile, the end
of a democratically elected government. They also prove that Kissinger unleashed the
CIA
against Salvador Allende Gossens, that
who were preparing the coup

many who wonder if, like Macbeth, he is not
Kissinger financially helped those
dtat. There are
troubled at night by a bloody ghost of Banquo: the ghost of Allende.
No
toasts
Chou
with
En-lai and Leonid Brezhnev will ever
be able to wash away the suspicions that

death.
Nor does
how
help to see
it
lie
on him
for Allende's
generously Kissinger behaves
with Franco and Franco's Spain, deaf to the future that a democratic
Spain prepares for herself
how
unbelievable
of Fascism.
And
is
it
have the
man whom
Communist
final say
on
it
leaders'
for the countries ruled
poor consolation
declining, that perhaps
will
in spite of Ford's visits.
shaker of
esteem and friendship only
his
is
this
to
has already
this too
It is
almost
hands shows
by some form
go on saying that his

that
set,
it
is
star
history that
famous, too important, too lucky
they called Superman, Superstar, Superkraut.
Published in
its
entirety in the weekly
New
Republic, quoted in
more salient moments in the Washington and New York dailies,

and then by almost all the newspapers in the the United States, the interview with Kissinger kicked up a fuss that amazed me as much as
its
its
consequences. Obviously,
man and
had underestimated the
the interest that flourished around each of his words. Obviously,
had minimized the importance of

him. In
fact
it
that unbearable
hour spent with
immediately became the topic of the day.
And
the
Nixon was enraged with Henry, that he

therefore refused to see him, that in vain Henry telephoned him,
asking for a hearing, and went to seek him out in his San Clemente
residence. The gates of San Clemente remained closed, the hearing
was not granted, the telephone went unanswered because the presi-
rumor soon spread
that
dent did not care to answer.

did not forgive
Henry
for
The
president,
what Henry had
among
said to
other things,
me
about the
Henry Kissinger
"...
reason for his success:
cans
like that
wagon
immensely. Americans
rides all alone into the
The
Ameri-
that I've always acted alone.

like the
cowboy who
leads the
by riding ahead alone on his horse, the cowboy
train
ing else.
29
..." Even
town, the
village,
the press criticized
who
with his horse and noth-
him
for this.
had always been generous with Kissinger, merciless

toward Nixon. In this case, however, the sides were reversed and
press
newspaperman condemned the presumption, or at least the

How did Henry Kissinger dare to
assume the whole credit for what he had achieved as Nixon's
envoy? How did he dare to relegate Nixon to the role of spectator?
every
imprudence, of such a statement.
Where was
the president of the United States
when
the
sor entered the village to arrange things in the style of
little
profes-
Henry Fonda
Western film? The cruder newspapers published cartoons

as a cowboy and galloping toward a sapicture
of Kissinger in cowboy hat and
Others
showed
a
loon.
spurs, with the caption "Henry, the Lone Ranger." An exasperated
Kissinger let himself be questioned by a reporter, to whom he said
in
showing Kissinger dressed
that receiving
me
he declared that
had been "the stupidest thing
had garbled
in his life."
Then
his answers, distorted his thoughts,
embroidered on his words, and he did so
in
such
clumsy way that
Nixon and took the offensive. I sent him a

telegram to Paris, at the American embassy, where he happened to
be at the moment, and in substance I asked him if he were a man
of honor or a clown.
even threatened to make public the tapes of
the interview. Mr. Kissinger should not forget that it had been
I
became
angrier than
recorded on tape and that this tape was
at the disposal
of everyone
I made the
Time magazine, Newsweek, the CBS and NBC
television networks, and to anyone who came to ask me about what
had happened. And the altercation went on for almost two months,
to refresh his
memory and
same declaration
to the
the exactness of his words.
to
unhappiness of both of
me.
name was enough
stand
Henry
Kissinger; his
tested
him
such a point that
to
us, especially
could no longer
to upset
me.
de-
wasn't even able to realize that the
man had had no
other choice but to throw the blame on me.

would be incorrect to say that at that time wished
him all success and happiness.
The truth is that my anathemas have no effect. Very soon Nixon
stopped looking askance at his Henry and the two of them went
poor
But certainly
it
30
back to cooing
who were such
oners
Their cease-fire was ac-
of doves.
pair
like
The American
complished.
home. Those
pris-
Mr. Nixon. And the
real-
prisoners returned
a pressing issue for
Vietnam became a period of waiting for the next war. Then,

later, Kissinger became secretary of state in place of William
Rogers. In Stockholm they even gave him the Nobel Peace Prize.
ity
of
a year
Poor Nobel. Poor peace.
ORIANA FALLACI: I'm wondering what you feel these days. Dr. Kissinger. I'm wondering if you too are disappointed, like ourselves, like most of the world. Are you disappointed, Mr. Kissinger?
HENRY
KISSINGER: Disappointed?
days about which

O.F.:
Something not
Why? What
has happened these
should be disappointed?
exactly happy. Dr. Kissinger.
Though you had
was "at hand," and though you had confirmed

that an agreement had been reached with the North Vietnamese, peace has not come. The war goes on as before, and
said that peace
worse than before.

H.K.:
There
It
will
will
We
be peace.
come
have decided
have
to
within a few weeks' time or even
it
and we
less;
that
will.
is,
im-
mediately after the resumption of negotiations with the North
Vietnamese
ago and
This
for the final accord.
repeat
Yes,
it.
ably short period of time
we
if
what
is
said ten days
have peace within
will
Hanoi agrees
to
a reason-
another meeting
before signing the accord, a meeting to settle the details, and

it
same
accepts this in the
that
it
spirit
held in October. These
these days. But

consider.
is
it
and with the same
''ifs"
is
an uncertainty that
no need
succumb
to
attitude
are the only uncertainty
don't even want to
You're letting yourself succumb
these matters there
if
to
panic,
and
in
Nor even
months we have
to panic.
Well, for
The fact is that
been conducting these negotiations and you reporters haven't
to impatience.
believed us. You've kept saying that they would

ing.
Then,
all
ready here, and
to
noth-
now
finally
al-
you say the negotiations have
you take our temperature every day, four

day. But you take it from Hanoi's point of view. And
failed. In
times a
come
of a sudden, you shouted about peace being
saying
this,
Henry Kissinger
.
nnind you,
31
The
understand Hanoi's point of view.
North Vietnamese wanted us to sign on October 31, which

was reasonable and unreasonable at the same time and
No, I don't intend to argue about this.
.
O.F.:
But you had committed yourselves
H.K.:
and repeat
say
and
on October 31!
on this date,
to sign
were the ones
that they
to insist
an abstract discussion about dates that
that to avoid
at the
time seemed entirely theoretical, we said that we would make

every effort to conclude the negotiations by October 31. But
was always clear, at least

sign an agreement whose
to us, that
we would not be
details
remained
still
to
be
it
able to
clarified.
We
would not have been able to observe a date simply because, in good faith, we had promised to make every effort to
observe it. So at what point are we? At the point where those
details remain to be clarified and where a new meeting is indispensable.
sary.
They
say that
it
But
this
is
not indispensable, that
it's
indispensable and that
is
will take place as

Paris.
say
soon
as the
will take place.
it
North Vietnamese
November
only
4,
today
is
not neces-
it's
It
me
call
November
4,
to
and
can understand that the North Vietnamese don't want
resume negotiations
just a
they had asked us to sign.

things.
But
I,
meeting. Just
at least,
ment,
if
can understand their postponing
will be, certainly, if
only to
fail
on
covered ninety percent of the
reach our goal. No, I'm not disap-
to
Hanoi should
can't believe that, no.

far
to
on which
after the date
cannot conceive their rejecting another
now when we have
ground and are about

pointed.
few days
Hanoi should break the agreeBut
refuse to discuss any changes.
come
can't even suspect that we've
a question
so
of prestige, of procedure, of
dates, of nuances.
O.F.:
And
yet
Kissinger.
it
looks as though they've really
They've gone back
to a
hard
become
line,
serious, almost insulting, accusations against you.
H.K.:
Oh,
gave
that
it
means nothing.
any importance.
It's
rigid.
they've
.
happened before and we never
would
say that the hard line, the
serious accusations, even the insults, are part of the

situation.
Dr.
made
Nothing has changed
essentially.
normal
Since Tuesday,
October 31, that is ever since we've calmed down here, you reporters keep asking us if the patient is sick. But I don't see any
32
sickness.
And
more or
less as
weeks
But when
H.K.:
As soon
Peace,
say.
to see
waiting. But without feeling anxious,
don't see
The
a few days go by.
When
you were
I'm here
again.
to
go by between one
why now we should
only reason that you're
"But
that people are wondering,
is
talks?"
me
assure you. For God's
two or three weeks used
meeting and another!

if
develop
be resumed? That's the point.
Le Due Tho wishes
sake! Before,
to
within a few
few weeks.
will the negotiations

as
come
repeat, will
resumption of negotiations. Not within a few
after the
months. Within
O.F.:
maintain that things are going
really
will
be upset
so nervous
all
they resume these
cynical and didn't believe that any-
all
thing was happening, you never realized that time was passing.
You were
timistic after
pessimistic.
You
proceeding as
I
too pessimistic in the beginning, then too op-
my
and now again you're too
press conference,
can't get
it
into your heads that everything
is
had always thought it would from the moment

was at hand. It seems to me I then figured on
said that peace
a couple of weeks. But even
should take more
if it
That's
more about Vietnam. I can't

allow myself to, at this time. Every word I say becomes news.
Listen, why don't we
At the end of November perhaps
meet again at the end of November?
O.F.: Because it's more interesting now, Dr. Kissinger. Because
Thieu, for instance, has dared you to speak. Look at this clipping from The New York Times. It quotes Thieu as saying:
"Ask Kissinger on what points we're divided, what are the
enough,
don't want to talk any
points
H.K.: Let
me
don't accept."
see
it.
any attention
Ah! No,
won't answer him.
won't pay
to this invitation.
O.F.: He's already given his
own
ready said that the sore issue
answer, Dr. Kissinger. He's

is
al-
the fact that, according to the
terms accepted by you. North Vietnamese troops will remain

in
South Vietnam. Dr. Kissinger, do you think you'll ever

Do you think that America will
succeed in convincing Thieu?
have to come
me
...
Don't ask
H.K.:
days ago
I
do not think
to a separate
that.
I
have
cannot,
will
agreement with Hanoi?

to
keep
to
what
said publicly ten
must not consider an hypothesis
happen.
An
that
hypothesis that should not hap-
Henry Kissinger
pen.
can only
you
tell
that
peace, and that in any case
time possible
can say what he

O.F.: Dr.
my
after
Kissinger,
likes.
if
are determined to have this
have
will
That's his
own
put a
to
in the shortest
it,
next meeting with Le
were
we
we
33
Due Tho. Thieu
business.
pistol to
your head and ask
choose between having dinner with Thieu and having

whom would you choose?
dinner with Le Due Tho
you
to
H.K.:
O.F.:
And
if
more
were
to
answer by saying that
cannot,
cannot
H.K.:
So can you answer

Yes. I found him
think you'd
this
man
very dedicated to his cause, very
very strong, and always polite and courteous.
serious,
sometimes very hard,

something
I've
Also
in fact difficult, to deal with, but this
always respected in him. Yes,
have great
is
re-
Le Due Tho. Naturally our relationship has been
spect for
very professional, but
tain niceness that shines
that at times we've

that
I'd like to
Le Due Tho?
I do not wish to answer that question.
question: did you like Le Due Tho?
willingly have dinner with
O.F.:
H.K.:
cannot answer that question.
one day
...
think
think I've noticed a cer-
through him.
even succeeded
might go
to
in
It's
a fact, for instance,
making
jokes.
We
teach international relations
at
said
the
Hanoi and he would come to Harvard to teach

Marxism-Leninism. Well, I would call our relations good.
O.F.: Would you say the same thing for Thieu?
H.K.: I have also had good relations with Thieu. At first
O.F.: Exactly, at first. The South Vietnamese have said that you
University of
didn't greet each other like the best of friends.

H.K.:
What
did they say?
That you didn't greet each other like good friends, I repeat.
Would you care to state the opposite, Dr. Kissinger?
H.K.: Well
Certainly we had and have our own viewpoints.
And not necessarily the same viewpoints. So let's say that we
greeted each other as allies, Thieu and I.
O.F.: Dr. Kissinger, that Thieu was a harder nut to crack than anyone thought has now been shown. So as regards Thieu, do
you feel that you've done everything you could or do you hope
to be able to do something more? In short, do you feel op-
O.F.:
timistic
H.K.:
Of
about the problem of Thieu?
course
feel optimistic!
still
have things
to do.
lot to
34
do! I'm not through yet, we're not through yet!

feel powerless,
don't feel discouraged.
and confident. Optimistic.

tell
you what we're doing
doesn't
mean
If
Not
And
at all.
can't speak of Thieu,
don't
feel
ready
if
can't
point in the negotiations, that
at this
I'm about to lose faith in being able to arrange
things within the time I've said. That's
why
it's
useless for
Thieu to ask you reporters to make me spell out the points on

which we disagree. It's so useless that I don't even get upset by
such a demand. Furthermore I'm not the kind of person to be
swayed by emotion. Emotions serve no purpose. Less than
anything do they serve to achieve peace.
O.F.:
But the dying, those about

singer.
In the
ture: a very
And then
newspapers
to die, are in a hurry,
this
morning
there's
young Vietcong dead two days
Dr. Kis-
an awful pic-
after
October
31.
there was an awful piece of news: twenty-two Ameri-
cans dead in a helicopter downed by a Vietcong mortar, three

days after October 31.
And
while you advise against haste, the
American Defense Department is sending fresh arms and ammunition to Thieu. Hanoi is doing the same.
H.K.:
That was
inevitable.
It
always happens before a cease-fire.
Don't you remember the maneuvers that took place
in the
Middle East at the moment of the cease-fire? They went on for

at least two years. You see, the fact that we're sending more
arms to Saigon and that Hanoi is sending more arms to the
North Vietnamese stationed in South Vietnam means nothNothing. Nothing.
ing.
nam anymore,
O.K.:
And
don't
make me
talk
about Viet-
please.
Don't you even want to talk about the fact that, according to
many, the agreement accepted by you and Nixon is practically
a sellout to Hanoi?
H.K.: That's absurd!
It's
absurd to say that President Nixon, a presi-
who in the face of the Soviet Union and Communist

China and on the eve of elections in his own country has assumed an attitude of aid and defense for South Vietnam
against what he considered a North Vietnamese invasion
dent
it's
absurd to think that such a president could
Hanoi.
done
And why should he
hasn't
been a
sellout.
sell
It
out just now?
sell
out to
What we
have
has been to give South Vietnam
an opportunity to survive in conditions
that, today, are
more
Henry Kissinger
than military.
political
win the
Now
it's
up
35
to the
South Vietnamese
to
awaiting them. As we've always
political contest that's
you compare the accepted agreement with our proposals of May 8, you'll realize that it's almost the same thing.
There are no great differences between what we proposed last
said.
If
May and what
We
the draft of the accepted agreement contains.
new
haven't put in any
concessions.
"sellout." But, really that's

Let's talk
clauses,
we
haven't
made
other
absolutely and totally reject the notion of a
enough
now about Vietnam.
talk
about Machiavelli, about Cicero, anything but about
Vietnam.
about war. Dr. Kissinger. You're not a
O.F.: Let's talk
pacifist, are
you?
H.K.:
No,
really don't think
pacifists,
with halfway
one
side
am. Even though
respect genuine
don't agree with any pacifist, and especially not

pacifists:
you know, those who are pacifists on

pacifists on the other. The only
and anything but
pacifists that
agree to talk to are those
who
right to the end.
quences of nonviolence
I'm only willing to speak to
them
tell
accept the conse-
But even with them
that they will be crushed
by the will of the stronger and that their pacifism can only lead
to horrible suffering.
that
War
is
not an abstraction,
depends on conditions. The war
ample, was necessary. By that

sary in
virility.
don't mean that war
that nations have to
itself,
I
mean
something
it is
against Hitler,
make war
to
for ex-
neces-
is
maintain their
which na-
that there are existing principles for
must be prepared to fight.

O.F.: And what do you have to say about the war in Vietnam,
Dr. Kissinger? You've never been against the war in Vietnam,
it seems to me.
H.K.: How could
have been? Not even before holding the position
have today
No, I've never been against the war in Vietnam.
O.F.: But don't you find that Schlesinger is right when he says that
the war in Vietnam has succeeded only in proving that half a
million Americans with all their technology have been incapations
ble of defeating poorly
armed men dressed
H.K.: That's another question. If
Vietnam was
necessary,
it
is
in black
pajamas?
question whether the war in
a just war,
rather than
Judg-
36
ments of that kind depend on the position that one takes when
is aheady involved in the war and the only thing
the country
conceive a way to get out of
left is to
America was involved
who
operated by criticizing and nothing
reduce the war and then ended
When
say
was
principle.
And
it.
Yes,
It
this
which
end the war. In
who
we who tried to
the verdict is up to hiswar, it's not enough to
must be ended
is
our
role,
did more: those
else,
involved in a
is
must be ended.
it
some
a country
my
all,
the degree to
in the war, so as then to
the final analysis, history will say
tory.
After
it.
more and more
has been to reduce
role,
or
in
accordance with
quite different from saying that
it
right to enter that war.
But don't you find, Dr. Kissinger, that it's been a useless war?
H.K.: On this I can agree. But let's not forget that the reason why
we entered this war was to keep the South from being gobbled
O.F.:
up by the North,
it
was
to
permit the South
remain the
to
Of course, by that I don't mean that this was our only

But today
objective. ... It was also something more
South.
I'm not in the position to judge whether the war in Vietnam

it was useful or
Vietnam?
O.F.: Yes. And, still speaking of Vietnam, do you think you can say
that these negotiations have been and are the most important
undertaking of your career and even of your life?
H.K.: They've been the most difficult undertaking. Also often the
most painful. But maybe it's not even right to call them the
has been just or not, whether our getting into

useless.
But are we
still
talking about
most difficult undertaking. It's more exact to say that they have
been the most painful undertaking. Because they have involved me emotionally. You see, to approach China was an
intellectually difficult task but not emotionally difficult. Peace
in
Vietnam
instead has
been an emotionally
for calling these negotiations the
difficult task.
most important thing
As
have
No, what I wanted to achieve was not only peace

done
in Vietnam, it was three things. This agreement, the rapprochement with China, and a new relationship with the Soviet Union. I've always attached great importance to the problem of a new relationship with the Soviet Union. I would say
no less than to the rapprochement with China and to ending
.
the war in Vietnam.
Henry Kissinger
O.F.:
37
you've done it. The coup with China has been a success,
coup with Russia has been a success, and the coup of
peace in Vietnam almost. So at this point ask you, Dr. Kissinger, the same thing I asked the astronauts when they went
to the moon: "What next? What will you do after the moon;
And
the
what
else
can you do besides your job
an astronaut?"
as
H.K.: Ah! And what did the astronauts say?

.1 don't know."
O.F.: They were confused and said, "We'll see
afterward. But,
what
I'll
do
H.K.: Neither do I. I really don't know
unlike the astronauts, I'm not confused by it. I have found so
.
many
my
... Of course,
things to do in
this post
just leave
soon as
that's
I've
and
it
life
and
I'll
need some time
start
something
influence
attitude
H.K.:
in the position
is
leave
else right
am
away. But, as
been decompressed, I'm sure to find something

it could
I don't want to think about it now,
my
my
work. We're going through such a rev-
own
life,
nowadays,
worthy of the nineteenth-century lower middle
Would you go back

I
when
to recuperate, a
worth doing.
olutionary p>eriod that to plan one's
O.F.:
sure that
No one who
period of decompression.
can
am
might. But
it's
ing things, and
to
teaching
with
all
some way of keeping up an
ally
be
my own
There
fault.
are
more
the experience I've had,
find
an
Harvard?
at
very, very unlikely.

if,
is
class.
interesting
Furthermore,
I've
life
...
it
interestI
didn't
will re-
by no means decided
like it very much, you know.

Power is always alluring. Dr. Kissinger, to what
degree does power fascinate you? Try to be frank.
will. You see, when you have power in your hands and have
H.K.:
held it for a long period of time, you end up thinking of it as
something that's due you. I'm sure that when I leave this post,
I'll feel the lack of power. Still power as an instrument in its
own right has no appeal for me. don't wake up every morn-
to give
O.F.
Of
up
this job.
course.
ing saying,
airplane at
me
my God, isn't
my disposal, that
it
extraordinary that
a car
can have an
with a chauffeur
Who
is
waiting
would ever have said it was possible?

No, such thoughts don't interest me. And if I should happen
to have them, they certainly don't become a determining factor. What interests me is what you can do with power. Believe
Anyway it wasn't a
me, you can do wonderful things.
for
at the
door?
38
power
desire for
my
me
that drove
figured in
my
plans.
If you look at
Nixon couldn't have
to take this job.
poHtical past, you'll see that President
been against him
I've
good three
in a
elections.
O.F.:
know. You once even
president."
Has
Nixon "wasn't
stated that
made you
ever
this
be
to
fit
embarrassed with
feel
Nixon, Dr. Kissinger?

H.K.:
don't
remember
the exact words
Richard Nixon. But
more
or less like that
Anyway
in quotation marks.
Nixon wasn't included
ment
didn't
And
position.
know him
may have
said against
must have said something

since people go on repeating the phrase
suppose
in
if
my
did say
that's the
it,
proof that
plans for gaining a high govern-
as for feeling
at that time.
embarrassed with him
tude of intellectuals, do you see what
mean? But
wrong. President Nixon has shown great strength, great
Even by
offered
calling
me
on me.
this job.
had never shown

yes,
O.F.:
He
he showed great courage
made
was
ability.
it.
After
all
he knew
friendship or sympathy for him.

in calling
Oh,
me.
it.
Dr. Kissinger. Except for the ac-
against
you today, that you're Nixon's
didn't lose anything by
cusation that's
atti-
had never approached him when he
was astonished by
much
...
had toward him the usual
mental wet nurse.

H.K.: That's a totally senseless accusation. Let's not forget that be-
he knew me. President Nixon had been very active
fore
foreign policy.
It
had always been
Even before he was

was
a very
on the
consuming
in
interest.
was obvious that foreign policy
it
important matter for him.
subject.
become
elected,
his
He
has very clear ideas
He's a strong man. Furthermore, you don't
president of the United States, you don't get nomi-
nated twice as a presidential candidate, you don't survive so
weak man. You can think what you

like of President Nixon, but one thing is certain: you don't
twice become president by being someone else's tool. Such interpretations are romantic and unfair.
O.F.: Are you very fond of him. Dr. Kissinger?
long in
H.K.:
politics, if you're a
have great respect
for
him.
O.F.: Dr. Kissinger, people say that
They
They
say that all
say
you care nothing about Nixon.

is this job and nothing else.
you care about
you would have done
it
under any president.
Henry Kissinger
H.K.: Instead I'm not at all sure that
with another president what

cial relationship,
mean
I've
39
would have been able to do

done with him. Such a spe-
the relationship there
and the president, always depends on the

In other words,
don't
know many
who would have had
eral,
who would
leaders
I'ê
men.
met sev-
anybody.
to
know
don't
leave to their aide the task of nego-
with the North Vietnamese, while informing only a
tiating
group of people about
tiny
and
the courage to send their aide to
Peking without saying anything
many
me
of the two
style
leaders,
between
is
it.
Certain things really depend on
the type of president; what I've done has been possible because
he made
And
O.F.:
it
yet
presidents
possible for
you were
who were
nedy, Johnson
H.K.:
My
or not.
an adviser
presidents has always been to leave to
all
job of deciding
When
if
they wanted to
me
they asked
them, indiscriminately, what
me what
Even
to other presidents.
Nixon's opponents. I'm speaking of Ken-
position toward
them the
me.
also
for
I
it,
gave
thought.
party they belonged to.
know my opinion
it
them,
to
telling
never mattered to
It
answered questions from
Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon with the same independence. I

It's true that it was more difficult
gave them the same advice.
with Kennedy. In fact people like to say that

with him. Well
was
much
yes,
it
was mostly
my
didn't get along
mature than now. And then
less
At that time
fault.
I
was
a part-
time adviser; you can't influence the day-by-day policy of a

president
you see him only twice
if
him seven days

son
now
was never
mean
in a position
week when others
see
with Kennedy and John-
comparable
to the
one
have
with Nixon.
O.F.:
No
H.K.:
No, none.
O.F.:
a week.
Machiavellianism, Dr. Kissinger?
Why?
certain moments, listening to you, one might

wonder not how much you have influenced the president of
Because
at
the United States, but
how much
Machiavelli has influenced
you.
H.K.: In
no way
at all.
There
can be accepted or used

I
is
really very little of
in the
modern
find interesting in Machiavelli
is
his
world.
Machiavelli that
The only
thing
way of considering the
will of the prince. Interesting, but not to the point of influenc-
40
ing me.
I'll
you want
If
to
know who has
influenced
me
the most,
answer with the names of two philosophers: Spinoza and
Kant,
So
me
curious that you choose to associate
it's
me
People rather associate
Machiavelli.
Metternich.
Which
written only
one book, which was
is
actually childish.
to
On
with
name
with the
Mettemich
of
I've
be the beginning of a
long series of books on the construction and disintegration of

the international order of the nineteenth century.
was
series that
to
end with the
First
It
was
World War. That's
all.
There can be nothing in common between me and Metternich. He was chancellor and foreign minister in a period
when, from the center of Europe, you needed three weeks to
go from one continent to another. He was chancellor and
foreign minister in a period when wars were conducted by professional soldiers and diplomacy was in the hands of aristo-
How can you compare that with today's world, a world

where there is no homogenous group of leaders, no homogenous internal situation, no homogenous cultural reality?
O.F.: Dr. Kissinger, how do you explain the incredible movie-star
status you enjoy, how do you explain the fact that you're almost more famous and popular than a president? Have you a
crats.
theory on this matter?

H.K.: Yes, but
won't
tell
The
ple's theories.
then intelligence
you. Because
it
doesn't
match most peo-
theory of intelligence, for example.
is
not
all
power, and often actually doesn't help. In the same way
head of
state, a
My
intelligent.
won't
of
my
tell
you.
fellow
theory
Why
who
is
work? Rather, you
does
my
tell
as
long as I'm
me
still
my
interview.
And
don't find
it.
erything there's your success.
you've
made two
H.K.: Yes,
my
main point
success.
.
mean,
who checkmate
China has been
chanics of
Well, yes,
one through
a
like
this
tell
chess player,
first
element
yet that's not the

I'll
you too
of
all.
Peo-
the king.
a very important
And
middle
suppose that at the root of ev-
or three good moves. China,
ple like chess players
repeat,
popularity.
O.F.: I'm not sure. Dr. Kissinger. I'm looking for

I
in the
yours. I'm sure that
have a theory about the reasons for
as a
job doesn't need to be too
completely different, but,
should
And
that important in the exercise of
you.
in the
me-
point.
The
The
main
What do
care?
Henry Kissinger
main point
Americans
who
the
from the
arises
wagon
cowboy who
train
he doesn't shoot.
He
You
see.
and ready
geous
H.K.:
Not
with his
Western.
fists
for
Henry Fonda, unarmed
honest
courageous. All he needs
that he rides into the
to
is
cowboy
suits
alone has always been part of
my
me
me
and
ple feel
me. And
for
been convinced that
had
and believe
it,
me
in
to
it.
when
precisely because
style or, if
Oh,
technique. Together with independence.

portant in
doesn't have
be alone, to show others
town and does everything by himself.
This amazing, romantic character

to be
Alone, coura-
ideals.
necessarily courageous. In fact, this
to be
a pistol, since
by being in the right place
acts, that's all,
see yourself as a kind of
to fight
town, the village, with
Maybe even without
else.
at the right time. In short, a
O.F.:
cowboy
like the
by riding ahead alone on his horse,
rides all alone into the
and nothing
his horse
always acted alone.
fact that I've
immensely. Americans
like that
leads the
41
you
like,
that's very
always
finally, conviction. I've
do whatever
And
And
done.
I've
my
im-
peo-
care about the fact that they
you sway or convince somebody, you

shouldn't confuse them. Nor can you even simply calculate.
believe in
Some
people think that
forts.
They think
this
preoccupation
consequences of what
stead the
On
know,
of losing
do,
ment, have never bothered me.

not looking for popularity.
to
is
my
always on
mean
my
public;
can allow myself
genuine
in
me.
If
if
The
really
were
if
I
want
really
all
afraid
think. I'm
to let
myself be
were
to act solely
would accomplish
a
rely
only
technique and
convictions at the same time. Like me, they're gen-
don't say that
may evaporate as
moment it's there.
O.F.:
mind. In-
good ones don't
on technique. They perform by following
own
you
what
to say
I
basis of a calculated technique,
nothing. Look at actors.
uine.
my
the public's judg-
don't ask for popularity, I'm
the contrary,
disturbed by the reactions of the public,
their
are to be the
initiatives or ef-
care nothing about popularity. I'm not at
referring to what's
on the
what
carefully plan
consequences, for the public, of any of
Are you trying
all this
quickly as
to tell
me
has to go on forever. In
it
came. Nevertheless
you're a spontaneous
fact,
for
man, Dr.
it
the
Kis-
42
My
singer?
God,
whom
with
if
seems
it
leave out Machiavelli, the
me
to
some cold mathematician,
character
first
natural to associate you
would be
Unless
painfully self-controlled.
I'm mistaken, you're a very cold man. Dr. Kissinger.

H.K.: In tactics, not in strategy. In fact,
relations than in ideas.
more
believe
use ideas but
need
human
in
human
relations,
shown in my work. After all, didn't what happened to

happen by chance? Good God, I was a completely
unknown professor. How could I have said to myself: Now I'm
going to maneuver things so as to become internationally famous? It would have been pure folly. I wanted to be where
as I've
me
actually
things were happening, of course, but

getting there.
I've
made
never
never paid a price for
concessions.
say
happened because
it
when
always say
it
had
I've
let
then
happen. That's what they
to
things have happened.
They never
say that
didn't
happen the history of things that

hapf)en has never been written. In a certain sense, how-
ever,
I'm a
about things that don't
course,
fatalist.
that
believe in destiny.
you have
to
I'm convinced, of
reach a goal. But
fight to
believe that there are limits to the struggle that a
up
O.F.:
always
One might
myself be guided by spontaneous decisions.
responsibilities that you've
lous reputation you enjoy?
Chou
En-lai, or
How
Le Due Tho
Don
Mao
frivo-
Tse-tung,
you seriously and then
let
Juan or simply a playboy?
embarrass you?
at all.
ate with
what
it
reconcile the
assumed with the
can you get
to take
yourself be judged as a carefree
Doesn't
how do you
thing, Dr. Kissinger: but
tremendous
Not
also
can put
reach a goal.
to
One more
H.K.:
man
Why
should
Le Due Tho?
have
know what
to
I
it
me when go to
speak to Le Due Tho,
embarrass
When
negotiI
know
do with Le Due Tho, and when I'm with girls,

must do with girls. Besides, Le Due Tho doesn't
at all agree to negotiate
ample of moral
with
rectitude.
me
He
because
represent an ex-
agrees to negotiate with
because he wants certain things from
me
in the
same way
me
that
I want certain things from him. Look, in the case of Le Due

Tho, as in the case of Ghou En-lai and Mao Tse-tung, I think
that my playboy reputation has been and still is useful because
it served and still serves to reassure people. To show them that
Henry Kissinger
museum
I'm not a
Anyway,
piece.
43
this frivolous reputation
amuses me.
O.F.:
And
to think
beheved
an undeserved reputation,
it
mean
playacting instead of a reality.

H.K.: Well,
it,
partly exaggerated, of course.
it's
What
true.
it's
what degree
degree
counts
And
that
at all.
spend only
see by taking a look at

else:
it's
life,
true, or to
what
to
is
a central preoccupation.
me women are only a divertoo much time with his hob-
a limited
time with them you can
my
schedule.
I'd
rather see
not seldom that
it's
For
Nobody spends
sion, a hobby.
bies.
my
are part of
Well, they aren't that
in part, let's face
women. What counts
devote myself to
women
But
not to what degree
is
tell
I'll
you something
my two children.
much as before. As a
see
rule,
them often, in fact, though not as
we spend Christmas together, the important holidays, and several weeks during the summer, and I go to Boston once a
month. Just to see them. You surely know that I've been
divorced for some years. No, the fact of being divorced doesn't
The
bother me.
me
give
over,
any
and
there was
much
fact
guilt
was not the
it
fault of either of us that
no reason not
closer
my
to
H.K.:
it
ended,
Furthermore, I'm
to get divorced.
was their
now than when
much happier with them now.
children
mother's husband. I'm also

O.F.:
my children doesn't
my marriage was
of not living with
complexes. Ever since
Are you against marriage. Dr. Kissinger?
No. The dilemma of marriage or no marriage

be resolved as a question of principle.
get married
again
know, when you're
is
one
happen.
a serious person, as, after all,
with someone else and survive that living together

ficult.
is
The
But,
am,
is
I'll
you
to live
very dif-
woman and a fellow like me

One has to be careful. Oh, it's
these things. I'm not a person who
relationship between a
inevitably so complex.
difficult for
can
that
could happen that
that could
yes,
It
me
to explain
confides in reporters.
O.F.:
So
see.
Dr. Kissinger. I've never interviewed anyone
evaded questions and precise definitions

defended himself
like
Fairly so.
But
you, anyone
you from any attempt by others
trate to his personality.
H.K.: Yes.
like
as
to
who
who
pene-
Are you shy, Dr. Kissinger?
compensation
think I'm pretty well
44
balanced.
rious,
You
see, there are those
who depict me as
who depict me
tormented character, and those
a mysteas
an
al-
most cheerful fellow who's always smiling, always laughing.

Both these images are incorrect. I'm neither one nor the
other. I'm ... I won't tell you what I am. I'll never tell anyone.
Washington, November 1972
Nguyen Van Thieu
The appointment
morning
invited
Nguyen Van Thieu was
with
in the presidential palace in
me
to
for eight in the
Saigon, where the president
have breakfast with him.
And
at eight
on the dot
Nguyen Van Thieu entered the room where I, along with his
Hoang Due Nha and the photographer Gianfranco
Moroldo, was waiting for him. A great smile on his round and
special adviser
shining face, an unexpected cordiality in his voice and eyes, Thieu
came forward extending me his open hand and immediately began

with a joke. "Which of you two is the chief?" he asked, indicating
with his short index
finger
Moroldo. "Not
at all,"
Moroldo and me. "Both,"
joked back. "I'm the chief, even
and I'm short." And, perhaps because the dictator

shorter than
full
I,
he liked the answer. In
fact,
replied
he's tall
so short,
he exploded
and exclaimed, "Right.
of approbation
Power should not be
is
if
in a
absolutely
even
laugh
agree.
There should be only one, that's all."

Precisely the concept he was to repeat at the end of the interview,
when, all excited, he was to say, "Ask me who's the chief here."
And I, "Who's the chief here?" And he, "I am! I'm the chief! Moi!
C'est moi
le
chefr
divided.
He had been
described to
me
as a very closed
man, and I was therefore dumbfounded. I actually wondered if what

had made him so cheerful and extroverted might not be the bombings of Hanoi, which had been going on implacably for days. He
had not yet received the news that the Americans had again sus45
46
pended them and that Kissinger would again meet with Le Due
Tho.
Thieu was wearing a gray suit with a hght shirt. Two days before,
he had sent me a message asking whether I preferred him in full
uniform or in civilian clothes, and I had answered, "I always prefer
civilian clothes." But as with many military men, civilian clothes
do not suit him, and this produced a certain clumsiness in him that
communicated itself in all his gestures. His effort to make me feel
welcome, for example, or so that I would judge him

Goodness, wasn't it too early an hour for me? Had
coffee?
Would
already had
me
like his little breakfast? Please, follow
other room. Please

his
a perfect host.
sit
here.
He
down
sat
napkin tucked into the collar of his
at the
shirt,
to this
head of the
table,
and when Moroldo
made the gesture of taking the first photograph, Nha began a little
dance of winks and black looks by which he begged him to remove
the napkin from the collar of his shirt, for God's sake. He didn't
And with his imploring gaze, he seemed to reply, "But

you saying? What do you want?" Then in the end he un-
understand.
what
are
And took it off. Gonfused, blushing. But his sulky face

seemed to comment, "But why? What's wrong with it? Now I'll get
spots on my suit and my wife will get angry." Nha was seated to his
left, watching out for any error.
I,
to his right. The table was
carefully set, the breakfast excessive. Fish soup, vegetables, meat
rolls, sweets, tea, coffee, solicitude: "Eat, eat. It's good, you know?
It's good when it's hot. Gome on, aren't you hungry?"
derstood.
The
conversation flourished as soon as
ing impatiently for

yes!
me to
Almost always."
Just
asked the
first
question:
Mr. President?" He was waitsay something. His answer burst out. "Oh,
think, at six-thirty, to hear the news on the
"But do you always wake up so
early,
But he stayed in bed until seven-thirty to reflect a little. And at

eight he was ready to meet with generals, ministers, and smoke his
radio.
cigar.
"Just one, eh?" "That's
been doing
years I've
smoking
smoke
it,
a pipe. In fact,
a pipe,
Whoever
told
it
whole day. For two

mean ever since I gave up
for the
a half,
not a good thing
it's
cigar
is
at all for a
president to
better for a president, right?"
smokes
that a president
only knows. In any case,

this prattle
two and
do you think?
him
enough
cigars,
not a pipe,
God
could only have been an American, and
immediately made you
course, Mr. President. That's true."
feel a little sorry for
him. "Of
Nguyen Van Thieu
47
went on, he went to bed very late. Until two

morning he never slept. Falling asleep, he left the radio on,
and so the radio stayed on even while he slept. He was so used to
sleeping with the radio on, even to distinguishing music from
words in his sleep, that when the music stopped and the news
began, he immediately opened his eyes and listened with a clear
mind. By that I shouldn't think, however, that he didn't know how
to enjoy life. Sometimes he played tennis, went horseback riding,
and three or four times a week he had them show a film for him.
Lx)ve stories, Westerns, judo, and karate. The only thing he didn't
have time to do was read. Takes too much attention, doesn't it? "Of
course, Mr. President. I understand."
In the evening, he
in the
me
Eating with appetite, even voracity, he told
stories of his
youth, of his military career, of his participation in the coup d'tat
Diem, and the name of Diem evoked in him an unex'They promised me not to kill him. I had said to
them, 'All right, I'll join you on condition that he's not killed.' In-
against
pected sadness.
him, those
stead they killed
me
a pain that
Each anniversary of
And
chapel.
to
thought:
bombs
aim
is
chef
men and
a million
if
little,
he was
maybe he
are falling
to
remain
here in
my
a tyrant protected
you were even surprised
really
as perfidious as they
on Hanoi;
because he
even naive as
it
to find yourself
said.
And you
so
much
joviality
is
former peasant.
comedy whose
Maybe he didn't
is
overbearing, but simply because he's
And
strange, perhaps paradox-
even knowing that the prisons of South Vietnam were
represents,
stolen
to
le
sounds: even knowing that he was a dark dic-
Vietcong, even hating
obedience
by
doesn't have that contented look because the
afraid of not being taken seriously.
tator,
gave
heart.
with that business about power not being divisible, his
c est moi,'
ical,
It
by a police corps that carried out
to disguise his shyness as a
start off
said,
my
be sincere. Nothing in him betrayed the diabolical
massacres. Little by
wondering
head and
have a Mass
shrewdness thanks to which he was
an army of
my
always pray for him, for his soul."
He seemed
his death
madmen.
Irresponsible
idiots.
have, here between
still
full
of
him and having always hated everything he
and undeserved power, ignorance, corruption,
the strongest,
abuse,
in
spite
of yourself and with
human sympathy for him.

lost, so alone. He seemed the
anger you ended by feeling a
He seemed
so small, so
very sym-
48
boi of a crushed, exploited country, humiliated by the interests of
those
who make and unmake
the destiny of others like a toy: the
global strategies of Dr. Kissinger. His
war on the
minuet with China and Rus-
who tell you one day, "You must make

communists! The communists are bad! You must kill
The cynicism
sia.
of those
them!" And the next day

the communists?
you,
tell
The communists
"Why
are
you making war on
are not bad. There's
them, don't you understand? Sign here and have a
kill
no need
to
Don't
cigar.
smoke a pipe. American presidents have always smoked cigars." He

had rebelled through having realized that he had lost his friends and
perhaps had never had friends, only masters.
And now he was
look-
Even for an hour, for a morning, with a foreign

newspaperwoman whom he had never seen and whom he knew
was no friend of his. "Oh, Mademoiselle! Sometimes I feel as
though there's nothing left to do except pray to God, Mademoiing for friends.
selle!"
with
When
breakfast was over
the discomfort that a Euro-
all
soup at eight in the morning he asked

would care to continue the interview in his office. Perhaps Mr. Moroldo would prefer another background for his
photographs. So we went into his office and there we stayed until
pean can
me
feel eating fish
courteously
if
We
spoke almost always in French, the language
studied.
Only when he wanted to clarify an idea, in

himself and to be understood at least
half-past twelve.
in
which he
his desperate
need
to explain
by someone, he repeated the sentence

is
not good and so he asked
he had
tears in his eyes.
Nha
Sometimes
was immediately choked back.
And
pain, with passion.
to
in English.
come
But
to his aid.
his voice
his
English
Sometimes
broke in a sob that
And he trembled
with rage, with
also with dignity. ''Messieurs les
Amri-
to be sold to Russia and China!

and death! To be or not to be!" In
short, there was a certain dignity in him and in his tragedy. Had we
understood him well? That, at least at that particular moment, he
was no longer the ridiculous puppet of the Americans that we had
believed him to be? And, since it is always good to redeem a man,
cainSy
For
me
told them.
it
is
have nothing
a question of life
any man, even
bad man,
was now glad
to offer
him some com-
passion and a certain respect.
Was I wrong?
I
have
I'm afraid
tried to give
so, today. In fact,
compassion and
almost every time that
respect to a
government
leader,
Nguyen Van Thieu

almost every time that
have
49
even
tried to absolve
partially
some
famous son of a bitch, I have later been bitterly sorry. Despite all
his chatter, Thieu soon signed what Kissinger wanted. And, once
having signed, he kept his prisons
full,
refused to call the elections
and never opened negotiations with the

Vietcong. So the war went on and now he has finally lost it, as he
he
had
deserved
promised,
to.
ORIANA FALLACI: Mr. President,
it is
no longer
you and the Americans today there
The
friendship.
between
a secret that
more emnity than
exists
harshness with which in October you rejected
the agreement accepted by Kissinger, the coldness with
you received General Haig

you are now
that
swords' points.
at
what Thieu thinks of
this
And
people are wondering
drama.
NGUYEN VAN THIEU: Mademoiselle,

am not
that many believe. On the contrary, I'm
I
never hide anything, even in

those
who
advise
In fact,
posite.
me
which
Christmas, everything shows
at
politics,
not to say what
the mysterious type

a very
and
open man.
don't listen to
think or to say the op-
always answer, "Instead one should say
it.
Loud and clear." But when we come to a subject like this, I

have to remember that
represent South Vietnam. As PresiI
dent Thieu,
enemy
my
cannot allow myself the luxury of being an open
of the United States, which for better or worse
friend,
my
ally.
conflicts should arise,
Besides
we would
promised Nixon
still
be
allies
is
still
even
that,
if
and not consider
ourselves enemies. Mademoiselle, can't there perhaps be quarrels
between husbands and wives? And do they become ene-
mies
for that?
Not only
that, quarrels
wife should take place in the
between
bedroom and
husband and
after the
door has
been locked. Children should never see their parents

pulling match. It's the same for friends. And it's in
in a hair-
est,
in the interest
my
inter-
of the United States, to avoid any public
row that serves the communists.

O.F.:
understand. But
when
interviewed Dr. Kissinger,
impression that there was no love

I'm a
N.V.T.:
little
Vous
had the
between you two and
surprised at your caution, Mr. President.
savez,
Yes, forget.
lost
Mademoiselle, one must know
When
how
to forget.
you're running a country, you can't afford
50
to
My
nourish rancor.
been very
Kissinger have
discussions with Dr.
At times, actually harsh.
frank.
I'd
go so
far as to say
very harsh. Nevertheless, basically they remained discussions
between friends and

his departure,
all
^well,
must
treat
him
as a friend. After
me, "How
"When you talk
the journalists in Saigon asked
And
goes the disagreement?"
answered,
about disagreement, you must
about agreement. Between
talk
the two of us there are agreements and disagreements."

moiselle,
have said "no"
to the
you want? When I say no, I mean no. But the

come to announce to the world that everything
hope
is still
for peace.
may come even

give
O.F.:
up
Then
still
have
faith that
There
come. It
over.
is
peace will
few weeks, in a month.
in a
Made-
What more do
moment hasn't
Americans.
It's
no time
to
in desperation.
it's
true that your "no"
That is, a no
N.V.T.: Not at all.
repeat,
say, "I don't agree with
though
is
"no"
mean yes.
when I say no,
vietnamienne.
la
that could
you
at all,
remain your friend,"
mean
Messieurs
mean
that
no.
les
And when
Amricains,
and nothing
else.
have always maintained that Dr. Kissinger, as Nixon's repre-
and negotiator, has the sacred duty of consulting ijie

and reconciling my point of view with the American point of
view. 1 have always expected the government of the United
sentative
States to
munists
uphold
to
my
views and to help
me
modify their demands. And, so
convince the comas
not to be vague
you that there are two fundamental points

accepted by Kissinger and rejected by me. One is the presence
of North Vietnamese troops in South Vietnam. The other is
the political formula that the North Vietnamese would like to
impose on our future. Like the whole agreement, these two
about
it,
will tell
points have been conceived by the
communists
in Paris.
So
mean to
North Vietnamese. What the
explained to Dr. Kissinger that to accept them would
bow
to
the
demands of
the
North Vietnamese demand is the

end of South Vietnam. Voil.
O.F.:
Couldn't you explain yourself
N.V.T.:
Mais vous
savez,
better,
South Vietnam, the
Mr. President?
Madenoiselle, cest
trs
simple!
The
South Vietnam there are 145,000 North

say there are 300,000, and anyway there's no
Americans say that

Vietnamese,
loss of
in
Nguyen Van Thieu

need
(but
Whether
to quibble.
it's
51
the exact figure
is
theirs or
mine
mine), to tolerate the presence of 300,000 North Viet-
namese, sanctioned by a
ternational conference
juridical
Because
unacceptable.
absolutely
agreement,
ratified
by an in-
and therefore by the whole world,

like
it's
is
recognizing their
maintain that
right to call themselves liberators, their right to
Vietnam is one country from Hanoi to Saigon, but belonging

to Hanoi and not to Saigon. Do I make myself clear, Mademoiselle? I maintain that to accept an army of 300,000 soldiers in a country means to recognize the sovereignty of such
an army over that country. It means to consider the North
Vietnamese
of aggressors.
instead
liberators
as
And con-
means to consider the South Vietnamese army as

mercenary
army of the Americans. In short, turning everya
thing upside down. And this is what I said to Kissinger: "But,
Dr. Kissinger, don't you understand that by doing this you
place the legal government of South Vietnam in the position
sequently
it
of a puppet
O.F.:
But
govemment
installed
after the armistice,
by the Americans?"
the North Vietnamese
would with-
draw from South Vietnam, wouldn't they?

N.V.T.:
Eh
hien, the
say so. That's
honest.
minds,
against
If
if
agreement doesn't say so
why
say to the
you don't have something

you
really don't
No,
it
doesn't
at
the
back of your
intend to renew your aggression
South Vietnam, why do you
business of leaving an
at all.
North Vietnamese: "Let's be
army here?
insist so
After
all!
much on
this
You demand that

days, you demand
American troops withdraw within sixty

kick out our allies, and then you want me to keep the
aggressor here. Mais cesi foul It's senseless, crazy!"
O.F. Mr. President, let's be realistic. What is there to fear with an
army of a million soldiers at your command?
N.V.T.: Voil la question. Everybody asks me the same thing. "Mr.
President, if you are so strong from the military and political
standpoint, what are you worried about?" I'll tell you what I'm
worried about. It's not at all difficult for a North Vietnamese
to learn the accent of the South and pass himself off as a
South Vietnamese. They too are Vietnamese. Among us
the
that
they're not at
all
recognizable like the Americans.
they already played that
little
trick
in
Haven't
Laos with the Pathet
52
Lao? In 1962, when the Americans withdrew from Laos, the

North Vietnamese were also supposed to withdraw. But do
you know that happened? The Americans went to the airport,
and one by one, from the
first
general to the last soldier, they
recorded their departure.
We
even knew the number:
forty-
Instead the North Vietnamese stayed in the
eight persons.
jungle speaking as Pathet Lao, disguised as Pathet Lao, and no
commission was ever able
control
were.
Mademoiselle,
that's
thing would happen here.
to find
Isn't
out
system.
their
it
how many
there
Exactly the same
happening already? They
learn the accent of the South, they spread through the villages,
they infiltrate Vietcong units and so
activists
ready to
Amricains,
how come
Changed
come
say,
become 300,000
together again as an army. Messieurs
does that sound acceptable to you?
And
les
then
you've changed your minds?
minds about what?

N.V.T.: Mademoiselle, I'll give you an example. When a thief
breaks into your house, there are two things you can do: either
call the police or get rid of him yourself. But if you call the
police, and the police come, and instead of arresting the thief
say to you: "Come on, make peace with this thief, you must
O.F.:
their
accept the fact that he's already in your house, cheer up, sign
this
I
paper to legalize his presence in your house
get
mad. And
answer, "Eh, Mr. Policeman, have
,"
then
we gone
that we
tell me that we must arrest thieves,

must call the police, that we must defend ourselves, and now
you tell me that I must accept the thief in writing? How come?
First you were so afraid of the thief, and now you aren't any
more? Now you actually authorize him to steal my things?
Monsieur le policier! Mais alorsl"
O.F.: It really drives you out of your mind, doesn't it, Mr. Presi-
crazy? First you
dent?
N.V.T.: Bien sur! Because, Mademoiselle,
what kind of peace
peace that gives the North Vietnamese the right

troops here?
What
kind of treaty
presence here de facto?
though
it
was
to
my
is
to
is
keep their
a treaty that legalizes their
proposed another solution, even
disadvantage.
said,
"Let the North Viet-
namese troops withdraw simultaneously with the American

troops, then I promise to demobilize the same number of sol-
Nguyen Van Thieu
145,000
North
the
If
diers.
soldiers,
Vietnamese,
53
withdraw
example,
for
demobilize 145,000
soldiers.
they with-
If
draw 300,000, I demobilize 300,000." They didn't accept.

Why? I know why. They need all their troops so as to have a
fine bloodbath.
O.F.:
Mr. President, do you think that the ceasefire
about
will bring
bloodbath?
no need to take
and in his
propaganda. He keeps saying that the North Vietnamese don't
want a communist government in South Vietnam, they don't
want a bloodbath in South Vietnam, they don't want to take
Oui
N.V.T.:
bien
seriously
sur!
There's
inevitable.
It's
what Pham Van Dong
says in interviews
over South Vietnam, but he only keeps saying
Americans who are
Quang
posed to forget the massacres around
it
to quiet the
Are we perhaps sup-
afraid of a bloodbath.
An
Tri, at
Loc,
on Highway One, which is now called Horror Road? Are we

supposed to forget what they did in 1968 in Hue, during the
Tet offensive? And what did they do in Hanoi after they took
power?
talked about this with Kissinger too.
Kissinger, so should
we have
sacrificed
we have fought
told him: "Dr.
should
for eighteen years,
hundreds of thousands of
human
lives in
order to have a million heads cut off after the cease-fire?
want
If
to
sign
go
down
man who
in history as a
what you want, within
And I
people who
bath.
six
months
there'll
care nothing for the applause of the

cry,
too
too!
be a blood-
moment,
bravo, bravo! Vive la paixf
'Bravo,
brought peace.
the
care
about what happens afterward."

O.F.: So,
in
your opinion, Nixon and Kissinger
Mr. President, how do you
made
a mistake.
explain the fact that they
made
a mistake?
N.v.T.
It's
simple; they were too impatient to
and
patient to negotiate
sign.
When
munists, you mustn't set a deadline.

that
you want
as
soon
as possible
dangerous
vantage of you.
It's
oners must be
home
before the
You
to repatriate prisoners as
conclude peace
peace, too im-
mustn't
soon
tell
them
as possible
otherwise
and
they take ad-
them candidly, "The
pris-
by Christmas. Peace must be reached
end of the
elections, before the
to tell
make
you deal with the com-
presidential
New
Year
mandate, before the new
..."
It's
huge mistake be-
54
cause they
and
know
the Western mentahty, Western democracy,
They know
so they blackmail you.
United States
president of the
Congress
what
will
be
after
are they able to
very well that
...
told the
Americans,
In other words,
He
set.
himself!
they exploit the opposition, discredit the government, and
one must be patient
*'Be patient,
No
with the communists, more patient than they."

O.F.
the
him to make him keep his promise. And

show? That President Nixon is incapable
of bringing peace by the date that he himself
And
if
the whole
deadline,
sets
Mr. President, you expected
use.
just
what has
happened.
N.V.T.: Mademoiselle!
I
know
1968,
North or South, we
the Vietnamese a
when
are all Vietnamese,
and
better than the Americans. In
many
the peace talks opened in Paris,
asked me, "Mr. Thieu,
And
little
when do you
people
think the talks will end?"
communists agree to
Not that they
want peace. What they want is a bombing halt in order to
catch their breath and launch another offensive. By taking advantage of this pause, they'll try to inflict another Dien Bien
Phu on us." More or less what they did during the Geneva
Conference of 1954. In Geneva they did nothing but waste
time and they played the same game that they've been playing
for four years in Paris. But when they won at Dien Bien Phu,
I
answered, ''Vous savez
negotiate,
it
means
they were quick to
that they
come
to
If
need
the
to negotiate.
an agreement.
If
it
hadn't been for
Dien Bien Phu, the Geneva Conference would
still
be going
on.
O.F.:
Mr. President, allow
me
to think that this talk
tell
about patience
What
wasn't the only thing you said to Kissinger.
else did
you
him?
N.V.T.: Voil.
You
are a giant,
told
him.
anything because you have nothing
to
You
don't care about
be afraid
of.
You weigh
you swallow the wrong pill you

don't even notice it. Your organism neutralizes it. But I'm just
a little man, maybe even a little sick. I weigh hardly a
hundred pounds, and if I swallow the same pill I can die of it.
two hundred pounds, and
You
are a great boxer.
if
You walk through
broad shoulders, your big muscles, and
you
in the
the streets with your

if
stomach, you don't even notice
someone punches
it.
At the most, you
Nguyen Van Thieu
him with a contemptuous smile. Inand maybe I'm not even a boxer
turn around and look at
I'm a
stead
my
because
someone
little
55
boxer,
me
physical constitution won't allow
me
gives
same punch,
the
such
sport. If
on the ground
fall
like a
So you can allow yourself the luxury of accepting such an

agreement. I can't. To you a bad agreement blows neither hot
nor cold. For me it's a question of life and death. A//ons,
rag.
done!
What
300,000 North Vietnamese
are
you? Nothing.
to
What is the loss of South Vietnam to you? Not even a speck

on the map of the wodd. What's more, the loss of South Viet-
nam might
China,
it
even be
wodd
helps your
me
Amricains, for
Moscow and
your convenience.
to
for
helps to contain
me. Messieurs
les
not a question of choosing between
it's
Peking.
But
strategy.
It
It's
a question of
choosing between
life
and death.
O.F.: I'd like to
know what he answered!
N.V.T.: Mademoiselle, his strategic idea of the world

liant.
is
very bril-
Southeast Asia controlled by the Russians, or an In-
and
in order to control
dochina controlled by the Russians,

contain China.
The
Chinese, so
necessary to ask the Russians to contain the
it's
Russians are
Chinese and oppose Indochina
to
less
them
dangerous than the

as a threat
on the
southern borders of China, et cetera, et cetera, amen. Good,

very good!
the strategic points.
isn't
But
who
for the
looks at the
map and marks
poor captain leading his com-
and woods, for the poor captain climbing

under enemy fire and sleeping in trenches, in mud, it
so good at all. He doesn't have any global interests on this
pany through
hills
general
like a
It's
planet.
He
rivers
doesn't even have anything to give in exchange.
He
doesn't have the Middle East to exchange for Vietnam, Ger-
many
life
for Japan, Russia for
what he
risks
to fall
is
and Peking, which

Voil
far,
China!
He
has only the question of
or death for seventeen and a half million inhabitants.
too
le
is
the
same
problme, Messieurs
far;
we
And
under the aegis of Hanoi. Or of Moscow

thing.
les
Amricains!
can't allow ourselves to
do
You
that.
look very
You're not
only a great boxer, a giant, you're also a very powerful busi-
nessman and can afford the luxury of saying, 'Tve spent a

now must make an exchange, and business is busi-
dollar but
56
ness,
money
doesn't count, and allez hop!
The
back only ten cents.
ninety
me
Ninety cents are nothing!" For

cigar
and pay
a dollar for
need those ten cents
American
friends.
interest
in survival.
world
is
among
it,
am
it's
must
to eat.
lose
who
not
resell
don't
mind
gives a
buy
a
I
don't have your global interests;
dear
only
Ah, these great powers who divide the
They have an open market
themselves!
where and what does
my
my
country,
little
damn?
for a dollar ten.
like that. If
it
getting
it
matter
if this
market costs the
every-
life
of a
small country?
O.F.: In other words,
Mr. President, you think that Kissinger was
in the name of his world strategy.

Eh hieriy I don't know if that was exactly his intention. It
may even be that he believed, in good faith, that it was a good
about
to sell
Vietnam
N.V.T.:
agreement.
be.
O.F.:
That
And
so
is
Anyway
him: "Doctor
told
you won. At
Where does
it
put you, Mr. President,
sign without you? Kissinger said

ference:
"With
to
be or not to
N.V.T.: Allons done!
they
To
if
we
have
the Americans
already
wouldn't have waited until today!
we reach an agreement
will
sign what? If they
would
if
clearly in his last press con-
it
respect to Saigon,
that the president considers just,
selves,
moment. Your "no" prethe moment. But for how
least for the
vented the agreement. At least for

long?
the question for us!"
go ahead."
wanted
to sign
by them-
signed.
They
certainly
The
fact that they haven't
signed by the date set by themselves, with or without the consent of South Vietnam,
allows
me
to
think that President
Nixon has thought it over and understood that such a signing

would have meant abandoning South Vietnam.
But I want to answer you in a more direct way. Mademoiselle, because you are not the first person to ask me: "If the
United States abandons you, what do you do?" Here's my answer: "I suppose we'll fight until the last cartridge and that
then the communists will conquer us." It's certain. There can
be no doubt. The French abandoned us in 1954, and as a
result, half of Vietnam fell into communist hands. If the
United States repeats what the French did, the other half of
Vietnam will end up the same way. Because once the Americans have gone away with a signed agreement, the Russians
Nguyen Van Thieu
57
and Chinese won't leave us in peace. And where is there

another power that could help us like the United States has
Maybe
helped us?
we'll find other countries ready to give us a
hand, but none of them would have the means of the United
States.
No, no,
if
America abandons
us,
for us
it's
the end.
The complete, absolute end, and there's no use discussing it

any more. Remember Tibet? No one intervened in Tibet, not
even the United Nations, and now Tibet is communist. When
a country
but
O.F.:
cannot
let itself
resist
Mr. President, doesn't
much on
N.V.T.:
is
nothing
it
can do
it
seem
to
you
that you've
counted too
the Americans?
can't
still
moment
doned."
an invasion, there
be invaded.
still
I
make such
come
hasn't
have
to
judgment. Mademoiselle!
me
for
to
say,
go on explaining myself
The
'Tve been abanto the
Americans,
you see what I mean. Maybe I've

But in my place you
it's true.
much,
them
too
counted on
like mine, to keep
country
A
small
would have done the same.
aid to ecomilitary
from
its independence, needs everything
nomic. Oh, sure I counted a lot on the Americans, sure! I still
count on them, despite everything! If you don't trust your
who
look too far ahead,
if
friends,
then
who
should you
Until the day she abandons
trust?
day you get a divorce, there has

O.F.: Well,
a little trust
friend
is
you or you abandon

be
to
trust,
must have come back
like a wife.
her, until the
doesn't there?
to
you when the
Americans resumed the bombing of Hanoi. Here in Saigon we

said: 'Thieu must have toasted the news with champagne!"
certainly
Nobody loves war.
make war gives me no joy. So the
bombing of Hanoi doesn't make me drink champagne, just as
the rockets falling on Saigon don't make me drink champagne.
But frankly, and since this war exists, we have to do it. And on
the day when these bombings are again suspended, I'll ask Mr.
N.V.T.: Let's get
one thing
straight.
don't love war. Having to
Nixon:
"Why? What do you hope
to
do you think you've achieved?" No,

for the
to
bombings
achieve that
They have
purpose, wc have
to end.
speaking as a soldier,
atrocious
it
is.
tell
you
achieve that way?
What
won't be the one to pray
a purpose,
to
and
if
we want
bomb. Mademoiselle,
that the shorter the
war the
less
58
what advocates of the atomic bomb say, Mr. President.

an advocate of the atomic bomb. I'm not talking
about the atomic bomb. I'm talking about
Have you ever
heard of gradualism? Well, in my opinion, gradualism is no
way to cure an illness. Especially when the illness has been
going on a long time, it should be cured in a hurry, with drastic medicine. Mademoiselle, war is an illness. Nobody likes it,
but when it gets a grip on you, it has to be cleared up quickly.
Without gradualism. The gradualism of President Johnson was
untenable. He never realized this simple truth: either you fight
a war or you don't. And the gradualism pursued by the Americans after Johnson has been the same. The Americans have
been bombing for years, not bombing, bombing again, reducing, escalating, above the twentieth parallel, below the twentieth parallel
But what is all this? War? That's not war,
it's half a war. C'est une demi-guerre.
So far we have fought
half a war, une demi-guerre. And I tell you that had we attacked North Vietnam with a classical war, had we continually
bombed North Vietnam, had we landed troops in North Vietnam, the war would be over today. And let me add that if
peace negotiations fail, there is only one way to end this war:
to carry the war to North Vietnam. In every sense, including
O.F.: That's
N.V.T.: I'm not
landing troops.
O.F.:
Do you mean
to say that
landing troops
is still
under consider-
ation?
N.V.T.:
Why
not,
if
the Americans are ready to do
it? If
the Ameri-
When
nobody can! But let me
I was defense minister and the Americans began bombing in
June 1965, one of them asked me, ''Monsieur le Ministre, do
you think these bombings will end the war in three months?"
And I answered, "It depends on you Americans." Then I
repeated the example of the boxer. "You are a big boxer and
North Vietnam is a little boxer. If you want to, you can knock
him down in the first round. If you don't want to and you
cans can't do
explain better.
it,
prolong the match until the ninth round, the public

discouraged and
demand
its
money
may
get
back. But even worse:
while prolonging the match you get a cramp, that
little
if
oppo-
nent might even beat you. Allans, done! Soyez de grands boxeursl
Knock him down
in the first
round. You'll never get any-
Nguyen Van Thieu
59
where by bombing gradually. On the contrary, you'll furnish

Giap with an argument to maintain that a small country like
North Vietnam can resist American might. They are putting
you to the test, Messieurs les Amricainsl Don't go through the
motions of bombing, don't
fight a psychological war,
fight a
war!"
Mademoiselle,
bardments.
I've
been through them
Japanese were here.
endure bombing
bomwhen the
of us have been through American
all
And
myself, in 1942,
remind you that
not so difficult
it's
after a while you get in the habit, espeyou have good shelters. Thus, after the first bombings,
the North Vietnamese were completely discouraged. And the
morale of the population was low, and in Hanoi they were expecting a landing. But the Americans didn't insist, and
The Americans kill for five minutes, then they give four minto
cially
if
utes breathing space, then they
me
Mr. President, allow
O.F.:
Don't you
on
whom
feel
uneasy
bombs
the
at the
kill
again.
Or simply human.
be naive.
to
thought that those poor wretches
Hanoi
are falling in
are
Vietnamese
like
yourself?
N.V.T.: Mademoiselle!
like myself.
know
Deep
that to
that the
end
in
know
my
very well that they're Vietnamese
heart,
don't enjoy
war you have
end of the war
in
to
it
at all.
But
bomb them, and
also
know
South Vietnam means the end of

you think that they've had
the war in North Vietnam. Don't
enough of it too? Do you think that they suffer only from the
bombings? Can you imagine what it means to sustain the burden of an expeditionary force to the South? They have nothing
because of that expeditionary force.
to eat
many dead by now! Together

to today, they
in
my
else,
secret
have had 1,057,000 dead. Look,
documents. And then they
the North Vietnamese.
They
suffer
suffer
suited to their mentality, to their
they've had so
have
it
here
from something
from
regime that
way of life. Communism is no good for the Vietnamese. They are too individualistic, and
assure you that only a few million out of twenty
assure you that the
million in the North are communists.
great majority of them would rise up if there were a landing.
Which seems to me unlikely with all the problems that Nixon
isn't
O.F.
And
with the Vietcong, from 1964
6o
has to face with Congress, the Senate, with pubHc opinion

that has
had enough of
this
war and demands
that he give
it
up, Mr. President.

N.V.T.: That's another matter.
cident that
was the
know Nixon's problems;
first
to
it's
no
ac-
applaud his doctrine. In June
1969, when I made that trip to Taiwan and South Korea,

Chiang Kai-shek and Chung Hee Park asked me, "But what's
going on? Is it true that the Americans want to withdraw their
troops from Vietnam? Why do you accept such a thing? Why
don't you ask them to stay until the end of the war?" And I answered,
"It's
not a matter of preventing the Americans from
withdrawing their troops.
It's
a matter of resolving the
by replacing their troops with an army of

the
army they should have given
Mademoiselle.
In
when
1954,
me
my
problem
own. Namely,
a long time ago." Yes,
the French pulled out,
the
Americans had already foreseen that the North Vietnamese

would attack us just as the North Koreans had attacked South
Korea. And if they had furnished us with an army, there
would have been no need
come in order
ever. And when
said,
"Help
We'll fight alone."
realized that,
tion,
me
And
and Nixon began
to
I
to
by their presence
million
men withdrawn
that's left
is
in
for-
South
risked being sent to the
help you. Give us a strong army.

agreed with Nixon on Vietnamiza-
withdraw
his troops,
the history of war has anyone seen an
can
them
asked
an immediate problem, not
Vietnam, two American presidents

devil,
We
to ask for their help.
to resolve
to
and when
army of over
in
a half
The only thing AmeriAnd Vietnamization has worked
in four years?
the air force.
splendidly, as everyone recognizes, and things have gone just

said. I had even said that there would be an attack before
American elections, another in 1973
Mr. President, allow me one observation. I'm not at all sure
as
the
O.F.:
that everyone recognizes the success of Vietnamization.
If
it
hadn't been for the American air force, the North Vietnamese
would have won their Easter offensive.
N.V.T.: Oui. D' accord. But Vietnamization couldn't be done in a
day, Mademoiselle. Not even in a year. We knew it would
take from five to seven years, and so it's not yet finished. It's
true that we would have lost in the face of Giap's attack, if it
Nguyen Van Thieu
61
who
hadn't been for American air power. But
took
Quang
Tri
and Binh Dinh? Who stopped the North Vietnamese at An

Log and Kontum? The Americans maybe? Vietnamization
will be complete only when our air force has been strengthened.
Mr. President? But you have plenty of planes,
O.F.: Strengthened,
reconnaissance planes, cargo planes, while the
helicopters,
North Vietnamese have nothing but two or three MiGs!

one arrives at the Saigon airport
When
N.V.T.:
selle.
them,
We
have the planes but we don't have the
We
to train
we do
We
don't have the technicians.
them. And that takes
before? Because
it
first
pilots,
still
Why
a year or two.
we had
Mademoi-
have to teach
didn't
army!
to see to the
we wouldn't be ready before 1973. That's why

the communists demand the suppression of the Vietnamization program and are afraid of it. Do you know how long it
takes to create a modern army?
always said that
O.F.:
Mr. President,
started talking
don't understand anything any more.
We
about peace, and here we are
talk-
more or
ing again about war.
less
Do
you want
to
end the war or win the
war?
N.V.T.:
like
want
to
Giap.
end
And
it,
Mademoiselle. I'm not looking
what do we have
treaty tomorrow, what
say,
I'll
you what.
tell
for victories
speaking as a soldier, not a politican,

to
win by
will
war?
we have won
Inflation,
God know how many
this
If
in
we
let
me
sign a peace
South Vietnam?
hundreds of thousands of dead,

a million refugees, a
cities destroyed,
month
means to have
million soldiers to be paid each
Fighting the war
lost the war, even if

own country really
the victory is set down in black and white in an armistice. In
fact, the art of war is to carry the war into enemy territory, to
destroy in enemy territory', as Giap could explain to you very
well. In that sense, he has every right to say that he's won the
ask you: If we sign a peace treaty tomorrow,
war. And again
in
your
what have we won? Have we perhaps conquered a square inch

of territory in North Vietnam? Have we perhaps won a seat in
the North Vietnamese parliament?
nothing.
peace
We
treaty.
have
lost in
We
have
won
nothing,
order to exchange our defeat for a
Mademoiselle! They've called
me
intransigent.
02
How
man
can a
ate with the
be called intransigent
NLF,
man who
before the elections? Are the various
Duans,
Vo Nguyen
So how long
ready to negoti-
is
Giaps ready
down
month
Pham Van Dongs, Le
to negotiate
with
me? Are
down?
they ready to step

O.F.:
who
ready to step
is
will this
war
Mr. President? Years, months,
last,
weeks?
N.V.T.:
Did you ever put
O.F.: Yes, but
that question to
Giap?
almost four years ago.
And what did he answer?

He told me the war might even
N.V.T.:
O.F.:
N.V.T.: Voil la rponse. This
wants, that
were able
is
war
war
go on for
he wants
for as long as
to carry the
go on for twenty years,
will
to
as
impose
long as Giap
it
on
us.
North, as he has brought
to the
If
it
to
the South, then you would have every right to put such a
question to
me and
insist
on an answer. But now
can only
you an opinion. Either peace will come within a few

weeks, let's say a month, or the war will go on for another
three or four years. It's too difficult to stop a war based on
give
guerrillas.
thousand?
Twelve
How many guerrillas were there in Malaya? Ten

And how long did it take the British to beat them?
years.
It's
hard to fight a war being waged by hoo-
ligans.
Did you tell that to General Haig when he came here? Because from what I understand, you didn't exactly throw your
arms around each other, you and Haig.
N.V.T.: Eh bieUy Mademoiselle, vous savez ... He calls me Mr.
O.F.:
President,
We
call
didn't have
him Mr. General,
much
to say to
here you are, General. Tell
And he
me
or rather General, so
each other.
in
said to
him, "So
what capacity you're here."
answered, "I'm here to explain President Nixon's point
of view."
Then
as a negotiator,
pointed out to
him
he was here only
this point of view,
General."
He
that
he wasn't even here
as a messenger. "Let's hear
explained
it
to
me.
listened
him only that would answer Nixon directly, by

a personal letter. And I would give this letter to him, Haig, in
his capacity as messenger. Haig went away, next day he came
back, and
gave him the letter. "Voil la lettre, mon general.
Bon voyage. Au revoir.'' I keep explaining myself to the Ameriand then
told
Nguyen Van Thieu
And
cans.
go on and on,
in the
63
hope that
they'll
understand
me. The day that they tell me, "We don't understand you,
Mr. Thieu, and so we abandon you ..." Bon! You'll see me
to
Saigon
to see
me.
just.
he's
.
about
Maybe
dent, in
my
treaty."
Then
come
to
hasn't yet
moment.
reach an agreement that to him seems
to
tell
it
wasn't the right
to come and tell me, "Mr.

moment has come to sign a
about
he's
opinion the
I'll
why he
don't understand
I'm ready
him
I'm always expecting
come. Maybe he thought
Maybe
... Of course
day
react to their peace. Until that

to receive Kissinger again!
him, "Have a
seat.
Presi-
peace
Let's take a look at
what kind of peace you're talking about."

O.F.: And are you ready to invite him to breakfast,
as you've invited
me?
N.V.T.:
Why
not?
cuits,
why
good
as
If
the North Vietnamese offered
shouldn't
offer
him
breakfast?
I'm not an
enemy
it
like.
try
of Dr. Kissinger. I'm not even an
communists when they want
They can keep
it
in their
to discuss
doesn't ruin your digestion.
the North Vietnamese as North Vietnamese.
here.
tea and bismanners are as
Le Due Tho's. And you can always
things while eating, as long as
are the
him
My
Mademoiselle, when the war
is
for as
over,
of
communism
to bring
own house
enemy
My only enemies
I'll
long as they
be more than
And even go to have supper

mon general! Let's talk a
I'm from the South. You have a
ready to shake hands with Giap.
home. And
in his
little.
lot
say to him, "A/ors,
You're from the North,
of coal and
railroad
have
from Hanoi
to
a lot of rice.
thanks for the supper, and

receiving you as
O.F.:
How many
my
will
Now
have the honor of
guest in Saigon?"
One would say

mind! What do you think
N.V.T.: Mademoiselle,
the
when
name of Giap, Mr.

you always have that name in
of Giap?
times you've mentioned the
President!
means
Let's build a beautiful
Saigon and exchange our goods.
Asian
that
think he's been a good general but by no
Napoleon
that
he
thinks
he
greatness was invented by the French press after
is.
Giap's
Dien Bien
Phu. And Dien Bien Phu is still his only great victory, though
it wasn't the extraordinary victory he thinks it was and that the
French have always maintained in their newspapers. From a
64
Dien Bien Phu was an easy battle for

at Dien Bien Phu: neither
nor artillery. Giap had only to use waves of
military standpoint,
The French had nothing
Giap.
planes, nor tanks,
and the
assault troops
honest.
What
Not even
in
tactic of rotating his divisions. Let's
a tenth of their
Indochina
be
did the French really lose at Dien Bien Phu?
Any French
army.
time will
at the
tell
you
was by no means completely defeated;
general
who was
French army
had sent them
that the
if
Paris
reinforcements, they would have been able to defend even
North Vietnam.
The French didn't
war at Dien Bien Phu because of

Dien Bien Phu because it had already been lost in France, politically, psychologically, morally. It's Giap who's got the idea in his head that he did something militarily decisive at Dien Bien Phu. And ever since he's
done nothing but look for his new Dien Bien Phu, without
understanding that a modern army today hasn't much in common with the French army in the 1950s. Giap's error, in this
war, has been not to recognize the extraordinary strength of
the American army and also to underestimate my army.
O.F.: Mr. President, we've been talking about the North Vietnamese and nothing else. So I think the moment has come to talk
about the Vietcong and the other disagreement you had with
Giap.
The war was
lose the
lost at
Kissinger.
N.V.T.: Trs bien.
maintain that the
the Americans in October
is
political
formula accepted by
an untrustworthy formula by
which the North Vietnamese are trying to impose a coalition

government on us. I maintain that we'll never accept such a
formula, no matter how it's disguised, since I'm not imposing
any government on Hanoi and I don't want Hanoi to impose
something on Saigon. The constitution of North Vietnam says
that Vietnam is one, indivisible, from Lao Kai to Ca Mau.
The constitution of South Vietnam says the same. Vietnam is
one from Ca Mau to Lao Kai, and so forth. But there is still a
de facto situation: two
states
North Vietnam and the
own government,
its
state
own
Therefore each of the two
state
of
its
parliament,
its
own
constitution.
must decide its political future

Like Germany. Like Korea. Do
states
without the other interfering.
The
of South Vietnam, each with
within this nation.
Nguyen Van Thieu

I
make myself
clear?
two
said
Like Korea. Like Germany.
When
tion.
Personally
it
two
states,
Two
such a reunification
can't see
65
states
states,
two
states.
waiting for reunifica-
come, God only knows.
will
happening before another twenty years

have always asked that North Viet-
or so, and for this reason
nam and South Vietnam
be admitted to the United Nations.
But the Vietcong
O.F.:
exist,
Mr. President, and they are South
Vietnamese. They should participate
in
the political
of
life
South Vietnam.
nam. So
say:
let
on the
part of
North Viet-
the political future of South
Vietnam be
N.V.T.: Yes, but without interference
decided by ourselves and the communists of South Vietnam.
NLF, I agree
having them as a
agree to negotiate with the
with them,
But
future.
agree to
this
a matter of
is
North Vietnamese
I
want
politics!
to negotiate freely
to
organize elections
]X)litical
South Vietnamese
party in the
politics,
not
don't want impositions by Hanoi;
with the
NLF! But how can
do so
the North Vietnamese stay here disguised as Vietcong?
if
Made-
moiselle, not even the Liberation Front could negotiate freely
me
with
while having three hundred thousand North Viet-
namese armed with
artillery weapons on its back! So I repeat:

and the Vietcong. We'll understand each
other better, and more quickly. We are all South Vietnamese
and I know that most of the Vietcong who have been fighting
for twenty years don't want to invade South Vietnam! How
leave us alone, us
could they
if
they are South Vietnamese?
only want to participate in the political
and
O.F.:
they
if
know
that they
of the country
Have you ever
N.V.T.: But
life
tried to
how can
if
open
talks
with them, Mr. President?
the North Vietnamese are here?
the North Vietnamese are here? This
is
what
How
1
can
keep on
repeating to the Americans and what they don't understand.

Let's
suppose that
thing by the
can she?
men
only
free
I'll
way
Madame
are the
want to meet with Madame Binh, somemight even like to do. How can 1? How
Binh isn't free to speak to me; her spokes-
that
North Vietnamese!
tell
you. Mademoiselle, that
when the North Vietnamese leave will the Vietcong feel

to come and speaV with me. And they'll come. Because
invite
them, and because they
will
no longer be controlled
66
The fact is that

Mademoiselle, two or three
we had something here called the "Chu Hoi movement." Chu Hoi means, more or less, "Vietcong deserter."
Well, at a certain point their number was very high: about two
hundred thousand. And this worried the North Vietnamese
by others.
years ago
if you let the Chu Hoi conSo what did the North Vietnamese do? They scattered themselves through the villages and in
immensely, because, obviously,
tinue there'd be
Vietcong units
And
deserting.
no
NLF
to
replace the Vietcong or keep
left.
agreement with Dr. Kissinger
a result of the first?
is
understand that the main problem

three
O.F.
them from
don't you understand that this second dis-
is still
Don't you
the presence of those
hundred thousand North Vietnamese?
Yes, Mr. President, but you go a

facto a coalition government.
Vietcong
in the politics of
If
further by rejecting ipso
little
you are ready
to
accept the
South Vietnam, why do you
reject
the idea of a coalition government?
what
N.V.T.: Because
government,
it
for a coalition
nists,
reject
government!
yes or no?
government
mean
a coalition
simply means Vietcong participation
Because what
elections!
tions
said so far doesn't at all
So even
A
if
is
the
demand by
have
to
the
government is the result of elecone day there should even be a
Saigon completely controlled by the
in
this will
in
other people
come about through
commu-
elections.
Yes or
no? Not a prefabricated government. Not a government imposed
What am
by Hanoi.
months
basically
for discussions with the
come
to
tions,
and
an agreement with the

finally the elections
NLF,
NLF
on
asking
plus three
Three
months to
for?
and organize the
one-man-one-vote
elecbasis.
what do they expect of me? What, more

than this? I represent a legal government, and I submit to
holding discussions with those who would like illegally to take
God
my place, I agree to having them in the elections
Allons, done! But
damn
it!
even accept the
possibility
that they
may
win,
though I'm ready to bet that won't happen; I'll cut my throat if
they win
No, no. Mademoiselle. They represent too
small a percentage of the population. Their number is around
.
one hundred thousand. From

thousand and
.
fifty
thousand
to
one hundred
Nguyen Van Thieu
who
may even be
O.F.: Plus those

sis
of those
facts
are
now
Mr. President, your analy-
in prison.
convincing, at
But examined
first.
you don't mention,
67
it's
less
in the light
convincing.
How
can
you organize real elections with the thousands of Vietcong and

suspected Vietcong who fill the prisons and concentration
camps of South Vietnam?
N.V.T.:
I'll
answer that reproach right away.
When
you're at war,
obvious that you put in prison anyone working for the
it's
enemy who
is
making war on you.
It
happens
coun-
in every
And
those who today

who have participated in acts of murder
or other atrocities. And there are less of them than you think.
Nevertheless, when peace comes, even their problem will be
try.
C'est las normalit, Mademoiselle.
are in prison are those
resolved.
ask nothing better than an exchange of prisoners.
Civilians,
everybody. Well, the North Vietnamese
military,
have refused
this too.
And
say,
how come?
am
ready to
exchange ten thousand North Vietnamese prisoners of war and

some thousands of civilian detainees for five hundred Ameri-
POWs. I'm ready to give free passage to all of them.

North Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, Vietcong, civilians, all of them, and they're still not happy! Certainly such
an exchange would have to take place when the war is over,
can
not before! Do you know what the real problem is? It's that the
Americans have shown too much anxiety, too much concern
about those five hundred prisoners in Hanoi, and now the
North Vietnamese use them as though they were merchandise
to
O.F.:
impose their
And
political conditions.
the neutralists, Mr. President?
It's
disgusting.
From what
understand,
they constitute the majority of a population that's had
enough
of everything: Thieu, the Vietcong, the Americans, the North
Vietnamese, the war
N.V.T.: They're not the majority of the population. If

say.
Mademoiselle,
it
were
as
majority of the South Vietnamese has great fear of the

munists.
fear that
you
wouldn't be here. Believe me, the great
com-
was crystallized by the Tet offensive and
by the massacres that took place around the time of the Easter
offensive. There's
during the
flag
no other way
campaign. All
everybody bought a
flag
to explain
what happened here
do was say the word and

or painted the colors of our flag on the
I
had
to
68
Do
fap ades of their houses.
you
really think that certain things
can be imposed by an order? Mademoiselle

neutralists as
let
myself worry about them.
look on the
idiots,
and don't
feel very sorry for
them, the
because they lend themselves
neutralists,
...
poor innocents, or rather poor
communist
to the
game. They're so naive. They think they're acting
politically
communists lead them by the nose. It would

be better if they joined the Vietcong units and fought with
weapons. I'd have much more respect for them. This way they
are neither politicians nor soldiers, they take risks on one side
or the other, and
Soyons srieux, Mademoiselle! How
can anyone be a neutralist in Vietnam?
and they
let
the
O.F.:
why
Is this
ties in
N.V.T.:
you've issued a decree suppressing opposition par-
Vietnam, Mr. President?
Mon
Dieu!
The
decree
suppress them.
isn't to
to
It's
courage them to unite. There are twenty-seven legal
en-
political
South Vietnam, plus forty illegal ones. Such an

abundance would be a luxury even in peacetime just imagparties in
And
ine in time of war.
not forget that our constitution
let's
encourages the two-party system.

peace agreement
months we
is
arrive at
fighting the
that, at the
is
communists
legal
ones are on the other.
Isn't
to
win? So
suppose that the
suppose that
in*
three
NLFwhat
moment when we
are
where the communists are on one

political parties and forty illegal
and twenty-seven
want
let's
the game called democracy, an
in
electoral battle takes place

side
let's
an understanding with the
What happens
happens?
Now
signed in Paris,
said, let's
it
better to regroup a
little,
if
we
regroup our minor parties into no
more than six major parties. Mademoiselle, ga suffit! It seems

me enough for a country of seventeen and a half million in-
to
habitants! Politics doesn't have to be irresponsibility. Allons,
done!
O.F.:
Mr. President, we've been talking a lot about democracy and

So I feel entitled to ask you a disagreeable question.
What do you have to say to those who call you the dictator of
elections.
South Vietnam?
N.V.T.: Tiensl
we should
knew you'd
take this
ask that! Mademoiselle,
down
too
on your tape
don't
know
recorder, but
take a look at the countries of Southeast Asia
and then
tell
if
.
me
Nguyen Van Thieu

which ones can be
called democratic according to your con-
cept of democracy. Thailand? Korea?

moiselle!
nam
...
still
is
69
In all sincerity,
it
The
seems
to
Philippines?
me
most democratic country.

like, but democracy
the
democratic as you would
can be applied
that
racy as they have
it
in
in
Maybe
is
Made-
South Viet-
that
not as
not a standard
an identical way everywhere. Democas you have it in Europe,
America, or
exist here yet. We're not yet ready for it. Don't forget
has never known a democratic life in the sense
Vietnam
that
that you give to this expression. Up until 1945 we were a
French colony. Until 1954 we were dominated by the Vietminh. Until 1963 we were under President Diem. So I allow
cannot
myself
to state that
democracy, here, only began
to exist in
1963 when Thieu became president.

O.F.:
But what kind of democracy
is
democracy
that offers only a
single candidate in elections? In the 1971 elections
you didn't
even have an opponent, Mr. President!

N.V.T.: Tiens, tiens. Mademoiselle!
We must judge these things in

We must remember that the
the context of South Vietnam.
would be the president who would

must remember that just at that time, that
is when there was no longer any political stability because my
opponents had withdrawn their candidacies, the North Vietnamese were grouping their divisions beyond the demilitarized
zone and along the frontier with Cambodia, in preparation for
launching a new offensive. Well, while this was happening, a
lot of people came to me and said, "Mr. Thieu, if the others
withdraw their candidacies, you too must withdraw. Otherwise
it's
not democracy." And I answered, "Our constitution
president elected in 1971
discuss peace.
We
doesn't stipulate that the elections are annulled
one candidate.
if
there
is
doesn't even say that a single candidate
It
only
must
That takes at least six or

months the North Vietnamese
step aside or look for an opponent.
seven months. In
have
all
six
or seven
the time they need to complete their preparations for
an offensive and
to attack us
say.
To
attack us just at the time
and political leadership. Good-by

South Vietnam. So say what you like. I'm staying. What's
your next question, Mademoiselle?
when we
O.F.:
are without military
brutal question,
Mr. President.
hate to be brutal, espe-
yO
been so nice
cially since you've
and so
forth,
Here's the
but
have
to
mind
in
me,
What have you
first:
inviting
to
Who
of the
Amer-
says that?
Almost everyone. Does
O.F.: Everyone.
Do
O.F.: Yes,
"man
'?
icans
N.V.T.:
to breakfast
say about the fact that
you're called an "American puppet" or the
N.V.T.:
me
a series of brutal questions.
it
you?
really surprise
the Americans say so too?
many Americans.
Uhm
N.V.T.: Ah! Tiens!
American puppet,
interview. I'm an
man
Vietnamese, not the

as
Mademoiselle!
think
ally
am
of the Americans.
I've
man of the
am I an
the
Even
recently shown.
of the Americans, that's
less
Even
all.
in this
Go
on,
please.
O.F.:
I'll
go on. Question number two.
those
in
who
What do you have
to say to
accuse you of being corrupt, the most corrupt
man
Vietnam?
N.V.T.: Mademoiselle,
What
should
not even worth the trouble to answer.
it's
answer?
Once
machine to throw slander on

no stopping it. Such accusathey happen for a precise pur-
the
a president starts going, there's

tions don't
pose.
happen by
You can
error
you ever seen
only: have
correct an error, but not a purpose.

a president's
boardinghouse run by nuns
say to
you
daughter living in a
London? That's where mine
in
lives.
O.F.: Well, then let's put
it
another way, Mr. President.
you were born very poor?

N.V.T.: Very true. My father was an orphan
Is
it
true
that
when he
got married,
my mother
at
the age often.
And
supported the family by
bringing baskets of rice and coconuts to the village market.
Thirteen days
their
to study in
Hue. But
Paris.
had
of self-made
And
child, she
My
is it
to her,
my
river,
had
to sell
because she
elder brother was able
younger brother was able to study in

We're a family
to study in the village school.
men
today
sisters still carry
to sell like
O.F.:
first
hut and move to the other side of the
had no money. And, thanks
my
her
after the birth of
my
brothers are ambassadors.
But
chickens and baskets of rice to the market
my mother
did.
Oui,
true that today you're
c'est vrai.
immensely
rich, with
bank ac-
Nguyen Van Thieu
71
counts and houses in Switzerland, London, Paris, and Australia?
N.V.T.:
of
not true.
It's
my
son that
swear to you on the head of
own
don, nor a house in Paris, nor a house
house
Switzerland.
in
my
daughter and
nothing abroad. Neither a house in Lon-
nor
in Australia,
technology
sary
eras to
les
Amricains, you have
to discover this
photograph
me
Bring
it.
house,
all
the neces-
all
the necessary
photographs of
in
And
Switzerland some time ago through some Americans.
answered, ''Messieurs
heard the story about the house
cam-
house."
this
own something in Vietnam, and you want to know

An apartment in General Headquarters where, being a
general,
am entitled to two small bachelor apartments. So
only
what?
I've
combined them
keep
it
belong to me,
it
modernized
into one. I've
go on weekends. But
as a place to
it
it
a little,
and
doesn't really
And I'll give it back to

museum. Then I have a wooden
go when I want to water-ski. It's a
belongs to the army.
the army, transformed into a
house on the
river,
where
prefabricated house, very cheap.
lumbermen's union. Then
It
was given
to
have the house where
me
I
by the
was born,
which is the poorest in the village. People go by it and laugh.

"Look at the house of President Thieu!" Finally I own a little
land where I enjoy making agricultural experiments. And
there I grow rice and melons; I raise chickens, geese, pigs, and
even
fish,
Since
stead
since there's a pond. That's
I've
been president,
use President Diem's.
all.
haven't even bought a car

It's
in-
an old Mercedes with an
always breaking down. Can you imagine the

Vietnam returning solemnly from some trip, getting off the plane, and getting into this Mercedes that starts
and all of a sudden stops? So that the military police have to
push it in the hope of starting up the motor, and bang! bang!
must
bang! While the president is cursing, "God damn it!
buy a car!" Go on. Mademoiselle.
engine
that's
president of
O.F.: I'm
you
dent
N.V.T.:
going on, Mr. President. Question number four. Aren't

afraid of being killed?
For instance, assassinated
like Presi-
Diem?
No. Frankly, no.
protects
believe in
me. Mind you,
it's
God and
in the fact that
he
not that I'm a one-hundred-per-
72
cent
In other words,
fatalist.
you and
there to protect
yourself.
On
the contrary,
you. But there's a limit to

clude, "I do
my
some
wouldn't be
con-
risks that
much
Mademoiselle,
Joking aside.
trust!"
me.
keep
it
shake hands with every-
my
attention;
And
nothing but complain.
protect
is up to God. Even he should

me, nest-ce-pas? After all, it's a
at all difficult to kill
body and don't pay
always
rest
responsibility for
of mutual
question
hand and help him to

everything, and in the end
a
duty and defend myself from the
such duty involves. The

take
is
therefore useless to protect
it's
think that one should do every-
God
thing possible to give
God
don't believe that
that
do
security agents
insisting,
''Messieurs les
I do my job, you do yours.

do it, so much the worse for you and me. I don't
damn. ]e men fous." I don't give a damn because
agents, quest-ce que cest que ga?i

If
you
can't
give a
how can you
avoid being killed if someone really wants to do

week I reviewed five thousand men of the defense
forces. Each one had a loaded rifle and all that was needed to kill
me was a single bullet from a single rifle. Nothing is simpler
it?
Last
than to assassinate a president of Vietnam. But

they since I've told
prefer to go
away
them
that
alive rather
it's
than dead? Furthermore, I'm not
obsessed by the idea of dying.
God knows how many
ting in
why should
not worth the trouble, that
And
I've
shown
it
battles until 1965,
by participa-
even recently
facing the North Vietnamese artillery and Vietcong gunfire.
No one
tum.
forced
was
went.
me
to
go to
Quang
Tri, to
Binh Long, or Kon-
a president, not a general at the front!
prayed to the Holy Virgin and then
And
still
went.
O.F.: You're very religious, eh?
N.V.T.: Oui, oui, oui! Beaucoup! Beaucoupl Every
Mass
my
troops
blood.
get
I
my
in
me
chapel and every evening
would
retake
Quang
pray.
Sunday
Tri without spilling too
even prayed when Dr. Kissinger came here
to accept things
was converted
after
hear
much
to try to
couldn't accept. I'm a true Catholic.
thinking about
was already a Catholic when
Church
also prayed that
it
for eight years.
married her
in 1951,
My
wife
and since
insisted that the marriage was valid only if I conwent to the priest and told him, "Monseigneur, I'm
an officer and I'm fighting a war. I have no time to study the
the
verted,
Nguyen Van Thieu
me
73
When
the war is over, I promise

and
convert." Then the war
you, I'll
it wasn't as
my
promise.
But
easy as I
ended and I kept
drove that
thought. I wanted to understand everything and
poor priest crazy with my questions. He was a country priest,
he didn't know how to answer. I had to find me a Dominican
Voyez bien, Mademoiselle, anything I do I like
father and
catechism. Give
time.
study the catechism
to
do
well.
Whether
it's
being converted, or playing tennis, or
riding a horse, or holding the office of president.

sibility
more than power. That's why
never be shared with others.

decide! Always!
may
like
respon-
power should
That's why I'm always the one to
I
say that
listen to others suggest
some
decision,
and then make the opposite decision. Oui, cest moi qui dcide. If one doesn't accept responsibility, one isn't worthy to be
the
chief and
Mademoiselle,
O.F.:
Thank you, Mr.
Now
me
ask
"Who's the chief here?"

O.F.: Who's the chief here?
N.v.T.
am! I'm the chief! Moi! Cest moi
le
this
question,
chef!
can go.
you leaving? Have we finished? Are you satisfied. Mademoiselle? Because if you're not satisfied, you must tell me.
Mademoiselle, I hope you're satisfied because I've hidden
President.
think
N.V.T.: Are
nothing from you and

ness.
swear.
what can
didn't
I've
want
spoken
do? That's the way
you with complete frank-
to
to in the
beginning. But then
am.
Come
on,
tell
me. Did
you ever expect to find such a fellow?

No, Mr. President.
N.V.T. Merci, Mademoiselle. And, if you can, pray for peace in
Vietnam. Peace in Vietnam means peace in the world. And
sometimes
feel as though there's nothing left to do except
pray to God.
O.F.:
Saigon, January 1973
General Giap
He was the man whose name was most often heard during the
Vietnam war. And not because he was minister of defense in
Hanoi, commander in chief of the armed forces, deputy prime
it was he who had defeated the French at
Dien Bien Phu. The Americans lived in the nightmare of a Dien
Bien Phu, and as soon as things began going badly, they said, "It's
Giap getting ready for a new Dien Bien Phu." Or else, simply, "It's
Giap." They spoke of Giap in February 1968, when the Vietcong
unleashed the Tet offensive. They spoke of Giap in March and
April, when the North Vietnamese took Hue and besieged Khe
San. They spoke of Giap in May and June, when the Vietcong
launched the second offensive on Saigon and the central highlands.
They would go on speaking of Giap for years. The name, short and
minister, but because
dry as a slap in the face, was a threat forever suspended in the
air, a
You frighten chilbogeyman." You frightened
bugbear from the seventeenth parallel on down.

dren by whispering, 'Til send for the
the Americans by whispering,
hadn't they inflated
They
him
"Giap
is
coming." Furthermore,
themselves, with their mania for legends?
hadn't even asked themselves
if
the legend might not be
premature.
At Dien Bien Phu, Giap had of course won

yet to be seen
itary strategy,
triumph, but
it
was
an Asian Napoleon, a genius in mila perennial victor. Had not the Tet offensive perhaps
if
he were
really
74
General Giap
75
May offensive? Had not Hue fallen and the

Khe San been lifted in the end? The war, in that February
1969, had gone more in favor of the Americans and South Viet-
failed, as well as the
siege of
of
namese. Hanoi's only real victory had been the abdication of Johnson and the suspension of the bombings over North Vietnam. In
Saigon, Thieu had consolidated his power.
But Giap was
wanted
still
to interview
Giap.
Giap.
It
And anyone who was
He
too old by now, too sick.
journalist
Ho Chi Minh
was obvious why.
shook the hands of
visitors,
was
made
some exclamation about final victory, and then withdrew coughing. A meeting with Ho Ghi Minh was good only from a human and
personal point of view, that is, you could say, "I've met Ho Chi
Minh." But it didn't give you much else to say. But a meeting with
Giap! Giap had plenty of things to say, and he hadn't been saying
them since 1954. More unapproachable than even Ho Chi Minh,
he had not turned up even at official functions; every so often a
rumor circulated that he was dead.
So as soon as I had arrived in Hanoi in that February of 1969, I
had asked to see Giap and with stubborn hope was getting ready for
the meeting, carefully reading up on his biography. And such a fascinating biography. Son of a landowner reduced to poverty, he had
been
raised in a rich
tion.
Like a good bourgeois, he had studied
in
Hue, then
at
French family,
from
a far cry
at
a Marxist educa-
the imperial college
the University of Hanoi, where he had taken his
degree in jurisprudence and philosophy; finally he had been a

teacher of literature and history at the French lyce in Hanoi,
tormenting his pupils with the campaigns of Napoleon. On the

blackboard he used to draw the details of battles, analyzing them at
length,
and
become
a general?"
But
his colleagues
made fun
of him.
"Do you want
he had begun very early
as a revolutionary,
at
to
the age of
fourteen. At eighteen, moreover, he had already been in prison; at
Ho Chi Minh. For his thundering

Ho Chi Minh used to call him Volcano
twenty he aligned himself with

rages
and stony
silences,
Covered with Snow, and for his courage he used to call him Kui,
or Devil. In 1935 he had joined the Communist party and married
one of his comrades, Minh Tai. In 1939, the year when the communists had been outlawed, he had escaped
Tai had covered his
flight
to
China, and
by getting herself arrested
Minh
in his place.
y
Because of
this she
had died
in
1941, in a rat-infested
Giap had learned
closed to all pity, open to all cruelty.

when, between 1945 and 1954, they had
poisonous bees, his
Many
to hate
fallen into his traps full of
of snakes, or were blown up by booby
hidden under corpses abandoned by the wayside?
traps
pits full
cell.
and become
Didn't the French find it out
believe that as a result of this
master of sabotage, he liked to say that guerrilla warfare would
always win out over modern weapons.
And
goes without saying
it
Dien Bien Phu he had won with cannons. A hundred cannons transported by the Vietminh piece by piece, on their backs,
on bicycles, by forced marches and without rations. If Dien Bien
Phu had cost the French twelve thousand dead, it had cost Giap a
good forty-five thousand. And it goes without saying that he would
mention it with indifference, detachment. "Every two minutes
three hundred thousand people die on this planet. What are fortyfive thousand for a battle? In war death doesn't count." His
harshness was not free of cynicism, and indeed he had little in
common with the austere Marxists of Hanoi. He always wore new
and well-pressed uniforms; he lived in a beautiful colonial villa
built by the French and furnished in French taste; he owned a limousine with curtains, and was remarried to a beautiful girl many
that at
years younger than himself. In short, he certainly did not lead the
monk or a Ho Chi Minh.

my request to interview Giap had been received with
many reservations by the North Vietnamese. "Why does it have to
life
of a
Hanoi
In
be Giap? Giap
isn't
the only one in this war.
And
besides
Giap
my departure, my
brought me the news that
doesn't receive visitors." But, three days before
female guide and interpreter.
An The,
could see Giap, "Tomorrow
yes,
Not
for
an
official interview,
not alone: together with the other

other
women
(Partito
whom
Socialista
of the delegation."
communists and
Italiano
had been invited
the afternoon.
for a causerie, a chat.
women
of the delegation were two
from the PSIUP

together with
at three-thirty in
mind you:
to
And
The
a socialist
d'Unit Proletaria),
North Vietnam. Their
names were Carmen, Giulia, and Marisa: intelligent, friendly

women. They understood the difficulty that this collective appointment gave me and promised not to open their mouths so that
could question Giap as comfortably as possible. They also promised
to yield their place should he choose one of them to sit next to
I
General Giap
him, and
he were
to take notes if
77
to forbid the use of the tape re-
corder.
Next day they dressed carefully and were already ready by noon.
tense and nervous. In fact I don't remember what
I as well
And
happened from noon on. I remember only that we left escorted by

An The, her assistant Huan, and the interpreter Ho, and that staff
were waiting
officers
entrance to the
for us at the
War
Ministry,
all
Then one
grave and smartly dressed in their olive-green uniforms.
by one they bowed with broad smiles and escorted us along a corridor
Giap.
The
was astonished
less
than
five
of
first
all at
but,
how
that
fat.
Vo
seen
in
look purple. No,
this
and
a very short
neck that
His body was squat,
jacket.
blue veins
little
was not an extremely likable
it
it
you some
cost
effort to
keep from looking
him, where the things you found were scarcely
huge mouth
a
knew he was
Perhaps because of that purple color, perhaps because of those
uncertain outlines,
huge
way, he looked even
His face was swollen and covered with
made him
face.
the
was
a lead soldier,
short he was.
short legs, short arms,
immediately disappeared inside his
even
many armchairs along
stiff as
legendary Giap.
feet tall,
He had
shorter.
divan and
room,
In the center of the
Nguyen
I
room with
to a large
walls.
full
nostrils, the
mop
at
The
interesting.
of tiny teeth, the flattened nose enlarged by two
forehead that stopped
of black hair
at the
middle of
his skull in
But his eyes! His eyes were perhaps the most intelligent eyes I
had ever seen. Sharp, shrewd, laughing, cruel everything. They
shone like two drops of light, pierced you like two sharp knives, and
conveyed such sureness, such authority. I even asked myself incredulously: Is it possible that these eyes wept one night in the Lam
Son mountains? One

was organizing
night, in the
Lam Son
guerrilla warfare against the
brought Giap the news that
mountains, where he
French, someone had
Ho Chi Minh was
dead. And, in one
of his books, he had recounted the episode as follows: "I

thing whirl around mc.
used as a suitcase and asked

tion.
It
long
to
was very cold and millions of
Who
full
of tears
looked
knows! Perhaps
in
every-
pronounce the funeral oraillumined the immensity
stars
of the sky. But an infinite sadness twisted

eyes
felt
collected his things in the straw basket he
at
the stars and
some remote
my
all
heart,
and with
my
of a sudden wept."
past these eyes
had
really
78
wept, but nothing in the world could have
He came
toward
me
made them weep
again.
with his hand extended in a worldly, free-
and-easy manner. There was even something worldly in his smile.
He
asked
me
if
inquisitorial that
spoke French and his voice was

I
shrill, his
tone so
was intimidated and answered "Ouz, Monsieur'
mon General/' But this didn't irritate him, and in

seemed to me that he liked hearing himself called Monsieur
instead of "Comrade," the appellation used by Giulia, Carmen,
and Marisa. He led us to the back of the room so that we could sit
down, asked Ciulia and Marisa to take the armchairs, and invited
Carmen to sit down next to him on the divan. True to her word,
Carmen demurred and moved so that I could take her place. But
this took time, and several minutes went by before everyone was
setded: my friends, An The, Huan, and Ho in the armchairs on
our right and the staff officers to our left. The shoes of one of the
officers were too tight. He loosened the laces from one hook, then
from another, and still another, and soon both his shoes were completely unlaced. Then another officer did the same, and then even
a third, while I kept wondering how to conduct the interview.
It was certainly not an ideal situation for me, with all these people seated in a row as though in school or at the theater. There was
no way of knowing what the proper ceremony was and what would
instead of "Oi//,
fact
it
happen
in the first ten
minutes: an exchange of compliments,
freshments? In front of the divan
where
re-
was seated with Giap was
meat
croquettes, comfits, cookies, and little glasses of red liqueur. But no
one touched them except myself, and something happened that
made me win the match. It happened that Giap saw my tape rea table loaded with delicacies: fried cheese balls, rice sweets,
corder and was alarmed. ''Je vous prie, pas celui-l, ga sera seulement une causerie entre nous, vous savez/' I tried to argue, a discussion ensued at the end of which we agreed on the necessity of at
least taking notes. And, in the wake of this conversation, I was able
to get him to speak.
I must confess that it wasn't even difficult. Giap loves to talk and
he talked
for forty-five
minutes, without letting up, in the pedantic
tone of a professor lecturing some rather unintelligent pupils.

interrupt to ask a
To
question was a hopeless undertaking. Giulia, Car-
men, Marisa, An The, Ho, all those who were taking notes
up with him. It was even pathetic to see those heads
couldn't keep
General Giap
79
bent over their notebooks and those hands writing, writing, writing
so breathlessly. I was the only one not writing, but how could I have
done so while his terrible eyes sought mine?

Giap in his turn questioned me, reproached me, challenged
and it was not seldom that he abandoned himself to passionate
bursts. As when I said to him that the Tet offensive Had failed,
he got up nervously, walked around the table, and with
me,
out-
and
out-
arms exclaimed, 'Tell that to the Liberation Front!"

(Thus disclaiming any responsibility for the offensive that everyone
attributed to him.) His litde hands moved ceaselessly, he showed
the satisfaction of one who likes to hear the sound of his own voice,
stretched
and he
let
up only when he
interview had been passed.
jumped
to his feet,
who had unlaced

face, they
And
floor.
on the
realized that the time limit set for the
He
stopped suddenly.
which made everyone
their shoes did not
know what
feet,
to do.
Red
in the
on the
stumbled and almost ended up
arranged the laces that had been

one, getting to his
And immediately
The officers
else rise.
left in a
tangle
floor.
we transcribed word for word the notes made by

Carmen, Marisa, An The, Huan, and Ho; then we compared them and composed the text of the interview, without omitIn the hotel
Giulia,
much as a comma. But a surprise was in store for me next

An The arrived with three sheets of typewritten onionskin,
she
gave to me saying that this, only this, was the text of the
which
ting so
morning.
conversation
had had with the general. The general would not
must promise to publish it. read the

had heard and that
sheets. There was no longer anything of what
the others had transcribed. There was not his answer to the question about the Tet offensive, there was not his answer to the one
about the Paris peace talks, and not even the one on the end of the
war. There was nothing except a series of vague and rhetorical senrecognize any other text and
tences
insists
good
at
the most for a political
on the publication of
raised. 'Til publish it,"
And
rally. "1 repeat,
this text," said
replied.
An The,
the general
her forefinger
"But together with the true
text."
did.
Giap never forgave me, and the North Vietnamese who had
given me a visa even less. Independence of judgment, as we know,
is a virtue that many communists don't like. Or they like it only in
8o
where you are prompted to write something in their favor. In

Hanoi they had accepted me for what I had written in 1968 from
Saigon, attacking the Americans and praising the Vietcong. But
now that I was explaining, in the same spirit, where they were
wrong in Hanoi, all their tender feelings for me vanished, together
with their good memories of me. They insulted me and called me
stupid names. They said that I had wronged General Giap in order
to render a service to the Americans, even that it was the Americans who had sent me to North Vietnam: "obviously I belonged to
the CIA!" But I did not get more upset than necessary, least of all
was I surprised, and this interview remained a document that is still
talked about today. Published all over the world, it even landed on
the desk of Henry Kissinger, who, thanks to it (as I have explained
elsewhere), agreed to see and talk to me.
cases
ORIANA FALLACI: General Giap,

the following question:
in
Who
many
of your writings you pose
after all will
win the war
in Viet-
months of 1969,
nam? So
do you think you can say that the Americans have lost the war
in Vietnam, that they have been militarily defeated?
vo NGUYEN GIAP: They recognize it themselves. But now I'll show
you why the Americans have already been defeated militarily
I
ask you: Today, here in the
first
And
show you their military defeat, I go

back to their political defeat, which is at the bottom of everything. The Americans have committed a very grave error in
choosing South Vietnam as a battlefield. The reactionaries in
Saigon are too weak even Taylor, McNamara, and Westmoreland knew this. What they didn't know is that, being so
weak, they would not know how to profit from American aid.
Because what was the goal of the American aggression in Vietnam? Clearly, a neocolony based on a puppet government.
But to create a neocolony you need a stable government, and
the government of Saigon is an extremely unstable one. It has
no effect on the population, people don't believe in it. So in
what paradox do the Americans find themselves? The paradox
of not being able to withdraw from South Vietnam even if
they want to, because in order to withdraw they must leave
and
politically.
to
behind a
stable political situation.
That
is,
a few servants capa-
General Giap
ble of taking their places.
Servants yes, but strong ones. Ser-
vants yes, but serious ones.

is
81
The puppet government
neither strong nor serious;
it's
of Saigon
worth nothing even
as a ser-
on its feet even when propped up with

tanks. And so how can the Americans leave? And yet they
must leave they can't keep six hundred thousand men in
Vietnam for another ten, fifteen years! This then is their political defeat: to achieve nothing from a political standpoint despite the enormous military apparatus at their disposal.
vant;
can't stand
it
O.F.: General, this doesn't
mean
that militarily they've lost the war.
Of
they didn't feel themselves beaten, the
If
it means that.
White House wouldn't
be talking about peace with honor. But
let's
V.N.G.:
Be
me.
patient, don't interrupt
course
go back awhile,
to
Geneva and Eisenhower. How did the Americans

begin in Vietnam? With their usual methods, namely, military and economic aid to puppet governments. Together with
the times of
the dollar.
Because they always believe they can solve any-
thing with the dollar.
Even
a free
ment, they thought they could
set
it
and independent govern-
up with the
dollar: that
is,
with an army of puppets bought with the dollar, with thirty
thousand advisers paid
with the invention of
in dollars,
stra-
hamlets built on dollars. But the people intervened, and
tegic
American plan failed. The strategic hamlets failed, the

army of puppets failed. And the Americans
found themselves forced to intervene militarily, as Ambassador
Taylor had already recommended.
So the second phase of their aggression began: the special
the
advisers failed, the
war.
They were
certain of being able to conclude
most by 1966
at the
and eighteen
with
billion dollars.
hundred and
But
in
fifty
it
by 1965,
thousand
men
1966 the war was by no
means over, and in fact had risen to another two hundred

thousand men, and they were talking about the third phase,
namely limited war. The famous two-pronged policy of Westmoreland: on one side to win over the population and on the
other to exterminate the Liberation forces. But the two prongs
didn't take hold
he
lost
made
it
in
and Westmoreland
1967,
when he wanted
that optimistic report to
1968 would be
good year
lost
the war. As a general
additional troops sent and
Washington, announcing that
for the
war
in
Vietnam,
it
would
82
Johnson to win re-election. In Washington, Westmoreland was greeted as a hero, but he certainly knew that
this war was beginning to cost a little too much. Taylor had
understood that from the beginning. Come on now! Korea
cost the Americans twenty billion dollars, Vietnam has already
cost them more than a hundred billion. Korea cost them more
than fifty-four thousand dead, Vietnam has already surpassed
allow
this figure
O.F.:
The Americans
Hm
V.N.G.:
...
say thirty-four thousand dead, General.
give figures lower than the truth:
They
stead of five.
And when
dead.
hundred of
The Americans
say at least double.
I'd
it
suits
had only
can't have
always
them, three
thirty-four
in-
thousand
down more than thirty-two

And when they admit that one out of
we've
their planes!
when
shot
every five of their planes has been shot down! Look: in five
war they've certainly
years of
sand men.
And maybe
lost
no
less
than sevent>' thou-
that's too low.
the Americans also say that you have lost half a
O.F.: General,
million.
V.N.G.:
The
exact
number.
O.F.: Exact?
V.N.G.: Exact. But to get back to
what
was saying, 1968
arrives
and in that year the Americans were really certain of winning.
Then
just look, all
of a sudden there was the Tet offensive and
the Liberation Front shows that

ever
it
wherever
wants,
defended
cities,
admit that
this
Namara admits
it
including Saigon.
war
And
They recognize that

that Montgomery was
it.
torious Tet offensive

O.F.
able to attack
them when-
Including the most well-
a strategic error.
is
wrong place,
army must not be brought onto
the
it is
wants.
the Americans finally
Johnson admits
it
it,
Mc-
was the wrong time,
right in saying that the
the Asian continent.
The
vic-
General, everyone agrees that the Tet offensive was a great

psychological victory. But from a military standpoint don't you
think
it
was a
failure?
V.N.G.: Failure?
O.F.:
would
say so. General.
V.N.G.: Tell that
to,
or rather ask, the Liberation Front.
O.F.: First I'd like to ask you. General.
General Giap
You must understand
V.N.G.:
that this
cannot express judgments of

the affairs of the Front.
.
Anyway you
very delicate
political standpoint
did not
went on
for a
was not
it
huge
up, and after two weeks
rise
the Americans regained control.

saga that
in
me, since the whole world has

military and political standpoint, the
The population
victory.
cannot meddle
a delicate thing
It's
even from a
O.F.: General,
dehcate question, that
is
this kind, that
surprise
recognized that, from a
Tet offensive
83
Only
in
Hue
we
did
see a
month. In Hue, where there were
North Vietnamese.
V.N.G.:
know
don't
the Front foresaw or desired the population
if
though
to rise up,
would think
that without the help of the
population the forces of the Front would not have been able to
cit>'. And
won't discuss the Tet offensive, which
depend on me, didn't depend on us; it was conducted
by the Front. But it's a fact that, after the Tet offensive, the
Americans passed from the attack to the defense. And defense
enter the
didn't
is
always the beginning of defeat.
without contradicting myself. In
come and one cannot
say beginning of defeat
our
fact
final victory
Americans. Actually the Americans are
deny
it?
will
It
completely.
dier
strong.
much
take
military
problem
is
and military
who can
part to beat
now
them
speak as a sol-
the Americans are strong, their
weapons
are
in
strategy are not
enough
either to
win
it
or under-
it.
But
V.N.G.: Don't interrupt
me. The United
waging war by arithmetical
strategy.
States,
They
was saying,
is
ask their computers,
additions and subtractions, extract square roots, and on
that they act. But arithmetical strategy doesn't

did,
to
not only a military war, and so military strength
O.F.: Yes, General.
make
strong,
still
on our
effort
But that won't do them any good because the war
Vietnam
stand
The
yes,
still
is still
yet speak of the definite defeat of the
they would
work here
have externnnated us already.
airplanes, for example.
It
With
if it
their
was no accident that they thought
they could subdue us in a few weeks by unloading on us
all
those billions of explosives. Because, as I've already told you,
they figure everything in billions,
in
dollars.
And
they un-
84
derestimate the
get
homeland from
its
heads that the war
in their
it
of a people that knows
spirit
just cause, to save
in
how
to fight for a
They
the invader.
can't
Vietnam can be under-
stood only by the strategy of a people's war, that the war in
Vietnam
not a question of numbers and well-equipped sol-
is
that
all
They
said
that to
win
and reduced
and
When
against them.
you can do. And

date
was
Then
This
it.
is
there's
ratio
dangerous
this
of
to one, six to
no wealth
nothing
there's
rebels,
one,
whole people
is
to
No, something
ratio.
something
whole people
came down
they
needed than an equation of three
is
twenty-five to one,
have
to
they realized that figure was impossi-
to six to one.
it
three, maintaining that
more
was necessary
it
Then
twenty-five to one.
ble
For example.
that doesn't solve the problem.
diers,
world that can liqui-
in the
the reason for our strategy, our tactics, which
the Americans can't understand.
Gen-
O.F.: Since you're so sure that they'll ultimately be defeated.

eral,
v.N.G.
when do you
Oh,
this isn't a
order to
war that you resolve
United
against the
Americans
think this will happen?
will
tire
in a
you need time, time
States,
be defeated in time, by getting
them, we have
to
go on, to
That's what we've always done.
time.
few years. In
last
tired.
.
war
The
And in
.
for a
long
Because, you know,
we're a small nation. We're scarcely thirty million, half of
and we were hardly
Italy,
when
a million at the
beginning of the
Mongols came. After conquering

Europe and Asia, the Mongols came here. And we, who were
scarcely a million, defeated them. They came here three
times, the Mongols, and three times we defeated them. We
didn't have their means, yet still we resisted and endured and
repeated to ourselves: all the people must fight. What was
Christian era,
valid in
lem
is
1200
is still
the same.
the
valid in the twentieth century.
We
good
are
soldiers
The
prob-
because we are Viet-
namese.
O.F.: General, the
side the
Vietnamese
Americans
in the
South who are fighting along-
are also Vietnamese.
them as soldiers?
V.N.G.: They can't be good
soldiers.
Because they don't believe
in
what
They
What do you
aren't
good
they're doing
think of
soldiers.
and therefore
General Giap
they lack any combat
and
they're ver>'
much
85
The Americans know
spirit.
better.
If
this too,
known
the Americans hadn't
would have had no

into Vietnam.
own
troops
need to bring so many of their
O.F.: General, let's talk about the Paris Conference. Do you think
that peace may come from the Paris Gonference or from a
military victory like the one you had at Dien Bien Phu?
that puppet-soldiers are bad soldiers, they
V.N.G.:
Dien Bien Phu
Dien Bien Phu
The fact that

And it can't be
we've gone to Paris proves our good intentions.

said that Paris
is
only ourselves but also the
useless, since not
we must translate to a poMadame!

Vietnam and
Liberation Front
is
in Paris. In Paris
what
is
happening
litical level
Madame,
Paris,
in
...
vous savez
something
is
for the diplo-
mats.
O.F.:
So
in
you saying, General,
are
that
Paris,
it
matically, that the
come and
V.N.G.:
will
itself.
And
just as
we beat
itself.
still
is
definitely
to
lose
come. And
the war at the
strength reaches
together
its
moment when
It's
O.F.:
will
Look,
time
this
Madame,
their
moment when
it's
it
will
we
will
Dien Bien
come. The Americans
in
their
will
military
moving. We'll beat them, that
they have the most
weapons, the most hope of winning. Because

that strength,
still
and the great machine they've put
height,
no longer succeeds
at the
will
it
But
the French militarily,
beat the Americans militarily. Yes,
Phu
never diplo-
Dien Bien Phu of the Americans must
Dien Bien Phu, Madame, Dien Bien Phu
repeat
be resolved
will not
militarily,
come?
not always true that histor\ repeats
is,
war
that the
can only be resolved
become
men, the most

all
that wealth,
millstone around their necks.
inevitable.
Am
mistaken, General, or did you already
Khe San?
V.N.G.: Oh, no. Khe San didn't
Dien Bien Phu. Khe San
Bien Phu
was only
cans
try a
second Dien
at
to
Khe San
just look at the usual
as
it
was important
their prestige
it
have been,
was
to the
at stake.
Or
a
it
AmeriBecause
paradox that you always find with the
long as they stayed in
prestige, they said
nor could
wasn't that important to us.
the extent that
in fact at
Americans:
try to be,
Khe San
Khe San was important.
to
defend their
When
they aban-
86
doned Khe San, they said Khe San had never been important.
Besides, don't you think we won at Khe San? I say yes and
but do you know that journahsts are curious? Too
.
curious.
And
and put
since I'm a journahst too, I'd like to reverse roles
couple of questions
Do
to you. First question.
you
agree on the fact that the Americans have lost the war in the
North?
General.
O.F.: I'd say yes,
bombings,
by war
If
North you mean the
in the
think the Americans have
Since they've
lost.
achieved nothing substantial and then have had to suspend
them.
V.N.G.:
Second question. Do you agree on the

lost the war in the South?
fact that the
Ameri-
cans have
O.F.:
No, General. They haven't

ally
them
kicked
lost
out. They're
V.N.G.: You're mistaken. They're
Stranded, paralyzed,
Or
it.
still
still
not
there.
yet.
And
there, but in
the expectation of
in
defeats that
avoid without knowing how. Defeats that have and
try to
will
have disastrous consequences for them
their
haven't re-
what condition?
new
they
nomic,
You
they're staying.
historical point of view.
political,
hands
tied,
locked in their
own
from
They're there with
strength; they
place their hopes in the Paris peace
an eco-
talks.
can only
But even there
up their positions.
you say that the Americans are stubborn in Paris.
But the Americans say the same thing about you. So what good
they're so stubborn, they don't give

O.F.: General,
are these Paris peace talks?

V.N.G.:
Madame,
vous savez
O.F.: General, here
that
nobody
we do nothing but
really
wants
talk
it
seems
will these Paris
peace
about peace but
So how long
it.
talks last?
V.N.G.:
its
long time! Especially
position.
if
the United States doesn't give
long time. All the more since we
ours, we're not in a hurry,
won't give
up
up
we have patience. Because while

we go on with the war. We love
the delegations are discussing,
peace but not peace
Peace
for us
the Americans.
And we
O.F.:
at
any
can only mean
price, not
peace by compromise.
total victory,
the total departure of
Any compromise would be
a threat of slavery.
prefer death to slavery.
So then, General, how long
will the
war go on?
How
long
General Giap
will this
poor people be asked
87
to sacrifice itself, to suffer,
and
die?
V.N.G.: As long as necessary: ten, fifteen, twenty,
fifty
years.
Until
we achieve total victory, as our president, Ho Chi Minh, said.

Yes! Even twenty, even fifty years! We're not in a hurry, we're
not afraid.
Hanoi, February 1969
Golda Meir
The
story of this interview
quite special.
is
It is
the story of an inter-
view that was mysteriously stolen and had to be done

I
theft occurred.
after the theft
for
had occurred. So
think
have talked four times and for
fantastic
woman whom you
admit that
let's
Am
fantastic.
have nothing against feminism,
ing her with the disenchantment

I
six
revile as
I
hours with
you
like
but
mistaken?
this
who
Am
even say feminism? Maybe. But while
never be objective about Golda Meir.
when
good
can praise or
cannot be denied the adjective

optimism, or
can say I'm the only jour-
nalist to
guilty of
over again.
all
more than three hours, before the

again saw Golda Meir twice, for about two hours,
had met Golda Meir twice,
will
would
say that a powerful personage
is
must add
that
I
I
will
never succeed in judg-
like to
impose on myself
phenomenon
to
be ana-
lyzed coldly, surgically.

In
my
with her
opinion, even
politics,
if
one
is
not at
all in
agreement with her,
her ideology, one cannot help but respect her, ad-
mire her, even love her.
almost loved her. Above
all,
she re-
minds me of my mother, whom she somewhat resembles. My

mother too has the same gray curly hair, that tired and wrinkled
face, that heavy body supported on swollen, unsteady, leaden legs.
My mother too has that sweet and energetic look about her, the
look of a housewife obsessed with cleanliness.
women, you
see, that has
gone out of
style
They
are a breed of
and whose wealth con-
Golda Meir
89
sists in a disarming simplicity, an irritating modesty, a wisdom that

comes from having toiled all their lives in the pain, discomfort, and
trouble that leave no time for the superfluous.
All right, Golda Meir is also something else, something more.
For example: for years
was she who could have lighted or extin-
it
guished the fuse of a world conflict. For years she was the most authoritative representative of a doctrine that
and whose tenets
reject:
Zionism. But
many
this
people condemn
we know. And I'm not
what we know about Golda Meir. I'm interwhat we don't know. So here is the story of this in-
interested in telling
ested in telling
Or
terview.
rather
my
Golda Meir,
story with
at that
time prime
minister.
My
first
meeting took place
Jerusalem residence.
was
It
my mother
at
the beginning of October, in her
Monday, and she had
when
dressed herself
She had
mother does when she's expecting
visitors. Seated in the drawing room, with a cup of coffee and a
pack of cigarettes, she seemed concerned only to make me feel at
ease and to minimize her authority. I had sent her my book on
Vietnam and a bouquet of roses. The roses were in a vase and the
book in her hands. Before I could ask any questions, she began to
in black, as
also
does
powdered her nose,
discuss the
way
in
as
which
she's expecting visitors.
my
had viewed the war, and so
it
was not
difficult to get
her to speak about her war: of terrorism, of the Pales-
tinians, of the
occupied
territories,
of the conditions that she would
put to Sadat and Hussein should she
come
to negotiate
with the
Her voice was warm and vibrant, her expression smiling and
jovial. She charmed me at once, without effort. Her conquest was
complete when, an hour and a quarter later, she said she would see
Arabs.
me
again.
The second meeting

ministerial office.
cal questions,
Two
took place three days

highly interesting hours.
on which
followed her
at
later,
in
her prime
Abandoning
politi-
times with reservations, in
the second meeting she talked exclusively about herself: about her
childhood, her family, her
Nenni,
a
for instance, for
trials as a
whom
touching affection. At the
woman,
her friends. Pietro
she feels boundless admiration and
moment
of saying good-by,
we
our-
had become friends. She e\en gave me a photograph for my

mother, with the most flattering dedication in the world. She
begged me to come back and visit her soon. "But without that thing
selves
90
there, eh? Only for a chat between ourselves over a cup of tea!"
That thing there was the tape recorder, on which I had taken down
every sentence, every reply. Her aides seemed astonished; it was the
first time she had spoken with such candor in front of that-thingthere. One of them asked me to send him a copy of the tapes to
give to a kibbutz that is preserving documents on Golda Meir.
The tapes. As I said at the beginning of this book, for my work
nothing is more precious than tapes. There are no stenographic
records, memories, notes that can take the place of a person's live
voice.
The
tapes were two minicassettes of ninety minutes each,
plus a third of five or six minutes.
Of
the three, only the
put them in
my
purse with the care reserved
been transcribed. So
and
for a jewel,
left
next day, arriving in
the evening. At nine-thirty

hotel.
And
checked into
here, as soon as
minicassettes out of
my
Rome
was
about eight
a hotel.
my
in
first
room,
had
thirty in
famously good
took the three
them in an envelope. Then

placing on top of it a pair of glasses,
purse and put
put the envelope on the desk,
valuable compact, and other objects, and
left
the room.
locked
the door, of course, gave the key to the desk clerk, and went out.
For about
fifteen
minutes: time to go across the street and eat a
sandwich.
When
came
upstairs, the
else
was
door
in order.
back, the key had disappeared.

to
my room
My
that nothing
seconds for
me
still
went
were locked, the valuable compact

where I had left them at first glance it
had been touched. And
to realize that the
tapes were gone.
suitcases
and other objects were
seemed
And when
was open. Only the door. Everything
Even my
it
took a couple of
envelope was empty, that Golda's
tape recorder,
tape with a few sentences, was missing.

traveling bag, ignoring a jewel box,
which contained another
They had taken
it
out of a
and then had carefully
rear-
ranged the contents of the bag. Finally they had taken two necklaces that
had
left
on the
table.
To throw
us off the track, the
police said.
The
police
came immediately and
political division
men who
stayed until dawn.
Even the
came, represented by sad and unpleasant young
no interest in ordinary thefts but only in more delicate matters. Even the scientific division came, with the cameras
and instruments that are used to find clues in murder cases. But
they found only my fingerprints: the thieves had operated with kid
take

Golda Meir
Then
in every sense.
gloves,
concluded that
was
it
91
the sad and unpleasant
a political theft,
as
young men
myself already knew.
What
couldn't understand was why it had been done and by
whom. By an Arab looking for information? By some personal
enemy of Golda's? By a jealous journalist? Everything had been
done with precision, speed, lucidity la James Bond. And surely
I
had been followed; nobody knew
at that
hour, in that hotel.
disappeared from
The
What
would
arrive in
appeared
had found the bags

to turn thern
that day,
had the key
pigeonhole?
its
A woman
next day something strange happened.
airline bags
Rome
Why
about the key?
at the hotel
in the
with two
to see the police.
She
bushes of the Villa Borghese and wanted
over to the police.
twenty minicassette tapes
and asked
like
What
did the bags contain?
mine. She was seized
at
Some
once and
Here, one by one, the tapes were

on them were popular songs. A warning? A
hoax? The woman was unable to say why she had gone to
taken to the police station.

played. All that was
threat?
look for the police in that particular hotel.
To
ning,
get
back
when
interview:
to
Golda. Golda learned of the theft the next eve-
she was
"The day
at
being interviewed by
aides,
who handed
erything stop
home
with friends and was telling about our
had an experience; I enjoyed

She was interrupted by one of her
before yesterday
.
her
try to see
."
my telegram. "Everything stolen repeat evme again please." She read

they told me,
it,
put her hand to her breast, and for several minutes didn't say a
word.
Then
she raised two distressed, determined eyes, and said
with careful enunciation, "Obviously somebody doesn't want this

interview to be published. So we'll have to
couple of hours for a
do
new appointment." This
is
it
over. Eind
just
what she
me
said,
they assure me, and
I
can't believe that any other government
would have reacted in this way. I'm sure that any other, in
her place, would have given a shrug. "So much the worse for her.
already gave her more than three hours. Let her write what she can
remember, manage the best she can." The fact is that Golda,
leader
before being a statesman, is one of that breed of women that has

gone out of style. The only condition she made was that we wait a
month, and the new appointment was set for Thursday, November
14.
And
so
it
didn't imagine
happened. Certainly, returning

1
would discover how much
to
her that day,
could love her
in spite
92
of
But, to explain such a serious statement,
all.
moved me
Golda
must
what
tell
more.
still
At night there
lives alone.
her sleep in case she feels
is
there
ill;
is
not even a dog to watch over

her bodyguard on duty
at the
During the day, to help her

around the house, she has only a girl who comes in to make the
bed, dust, and do the ironing. If she invites you to dinner, for example, Golda herself does the cooking, and after cooking, she
cleans up: so that tomorrow the girl doesn't find everything dirty.
Well, the evening before my appointment, she had guests to dinner
and they stayed until two in the morning, leaving a shambles of
dirty dishes, dirty glasses, overflowing ashtrays, disorder. So that tomorrow the girl wouldn't find everything dirty, at two in the morning Golda began washing dishes and glasses, sweeping, and tidying,
entrance to her
villa
and she did not
get to
and
that's all.
bed before three-thirty. At seven, she got up,
as always, to read the papers
and
listen to the
news on the
At
radio.
eight she conferred with certain generals. At nine she conferred
with certain ministers. At ten

enty-four, three
When
''Let's
and
heard about
it,
she
felt
ill.
At the age of sev-
hours of sleep are not enough.
a half
I
was ashamed
put off the appointment,
it
come
to
doesn't matter,
in.
I
kept saying,
swear
doesn't
it
matter!" But she wanted to keep her engagement: "Yes, poor thing,
she
came
all this
way and
it's
the second time she's
stole her tapes." After resting for
come and
they
twenty minutes on the divan in her
office,
she appeared behind her desk, pale, worn out, and very
sweet.
much
me
wasn't to worry about the delay; she would give
time as
And
needed.
the interview was resumed
as
like the
time before, better than the time before. In October she had been
unable
her
to speak of her
life.
husband, of what had been the tragedy of
This time she did even
painful for her,
when
this,
and since
to speak of
is
it
so
she found that she couldn't go on, she reas-
sured me: "Don't worry, we'll finish tomorrow!"
Then
she gave
me
a fourth
which we spoke of old

she looked
Golda
is
when
appointment, the splendid hour in
age, youth,
and death. God, how alluring
she talked of these things!
Many
maintain that
ugly and rejoice in doing cruel caricatures of her.
swer: Certainly beauty
beautiful old
is
an opinion, but
woman. Many maintain
to
that
enjoy spreading vulgar jokes about her.
me Golda
Golda
is
seems
an-
like a
masculine and
answer: Certainly femi-
Golda Meir
93
is an opinion, but to me Golda seems a woman in every

That
way.
gentle modesty, for instance. That almost incredible
candor when you remember how crafty and clever she can be when
she swims among the whirlpools of politics. That torment in con-
ninity
woman
veying the anguish of a
enough. That tenderness
in
whom
for
childbearing
is
not
evoking the testimony of her children
and grandchildren. That involuntary
The
flirting.
time
last
saw
her she was wearing a sky-blue pleated blouse, with a pearl necklace. Stroking
to
it
with her short, pink-manicured nails, she seemed
be asking, ''So do
look
all
And thought, a
who command.
right?"
power, a pity she's on the side of those

like this,
I
power
is
an error
pity she's in
In a
woman
in taste.
name
won't repeat that she was born in Kiev in 1898, with the
of Golda Mabovitz, that she grew up in America, in Milwaukee,
where she married Morris Meyerson
in
1918 she
1917, that in
emigrated with him to Palestine, that the surname Meir was urged
on her by David Ben-Gurion because it sounded more Hebrew,

that her success began after she had served as ambassador to Moscow in the times of Stalin, that she smokes at least sixty cigarettes a
day, that she keeps going mainly on coffee, that her working day
lasts
eighteen hours, that as prime minister she earns the miserable
sum
of about four hundred dollars a month. I'm not about to look
for the secret of her legend.
with
all
The
her good and her flaws.
interview that follows explains

I
composed
it
it
following the chro-
nology of the meetings.
Naturally the police never got to the core of the mystery' sur-
rounding the
it,
more than
it,
theft of those tapes.
Or,
if
they did get to the core of
they took care not to inform me. But a clue that soon
if
a clue offered itself.
And
it's
worth the trouble
became
to relate
only to give another idea of those in power.
my interview with Golda Meir,

Muammar el-Qaddafi. And he, through a
At about the same time as

asked for one with
official
of the Libyan Ministry of Information, had
that he
would grant
it.
But
all
The correspondent rushed
coincidence, Qaddafi regaled
answers
to
had
high
me know
of a sudden, a few days after the theft
of the tapes, he sent for the correspondent of a
L'Europeo.
let
him with sentences
what Mrs. Meir had
told
rival
weekly of
off to Tripoli and, by
me. The poor
that
some
sounded
journalist,
like
need-
94
less
to
was ignorant of
say,
realized
at
it
how was
it
And
once.
possible for
this
But
detail.
more than
raised a
Mr. Qaddafi
needless to say,
I,
legitimate question:
answer something that had
to
never been published and that no one, other than myself, knew?
Had Mr. Qaddafi
listened to
my
Had he
tapes?
actually received
them from someone who had stolen them from me? And immediately my mind recalled an unforgotten detail. The day after the
had played amateur detective and gone on the sly to rumtheft
mage in the trash collected on the floor of the hotel where the
1
crime had taken place. Here, and though they swore
no Arab had gone up
that
paper written in Arabic.
for days,
had given
it,
in the hotel
had discovered
along with
my
a piece of
statement, to
the political division of the police.
And, of course, I might be mistaken. Of course, the

well have been some American tourist or some
Frenchman. Qaddafi never granted me the promised interview. He
never called me to Tripoli to dispel the shameful suspicion that I
That's
thief
still
all.
might
feel justified in
About Golda,
nourishing.
well, she isn't involved
power. She
taste called
is
any more
no longer prime
in that error of
minister. In a sudden,
somehow
brutal way, history took her off the job and sent her
home. But home was the kibbutz where she had been longing to
live and, I bet, that brutality was the nicest gift she could dream of.
Nobody will ever convince me that she is not much happier now,
far from power, than she ever was when I met her. After all, she
deserves to end her days as she always dreamed. You will under-
stand
it
from her own words.
GOLDA MEIR: Good morning,
dear,
good morning.
ing at your book on the war.
women
really react differently to
And
was
just look-
was asking myself
war than men.
...
I'd
if
say
no. In these last years and during the war of attrition, I've so
often found myself having to
make
certain decisions: for in-
stance, to send our soldiers to places from where they wouldn't
come
lives
commit them to operations that would cost the

who knows how many human beings on both sides.
back, or
of
And I suffered ... suffered. But gave those orders as a

man would have given them. And now that think of it, I'm
I
Golda Meir
not at
sure that
all
more than
suffered any
Among my male
have.
95
colleagues
man would
have seen some oppressed
by a darker sadness than mine. Oh, not that mine was
But
.
didn't influence, no,
it
War
is
an immense
it
didn't influence
my
little!
decisions.
someday
stupidity. I'm sure that
all
wars will end. I'm sure that someday children in school will
men who made war
study the history of the
as
you study an
They'll be astonished, they'll be shocked,
absurdity.
just as
today we're shocked by cannibalism. Even cannibalism was
accepted for a long time as a normal thing.

least physically,
it's
And
yet today, at
not practiced any more.
ORIANA FALLACI: Mrs. Meir, I'm glad you were the first
this subject. Because it's just the one with which
begin. Mrs.
East? Will
You
G.M.:
war
I'll
will,
Meir,
we be
I
when
able to see this peace in our lifetimes?
think.
Maybe ...
certainly won't.
think the
Middle East will go on for many, many years. And

you why. Because of the indifference with which the
in the
tell
Arab leaders send
their people off to die,
estimate in which they hold

ity
be peace in
will there
up
meant to
the Middle
to bring
human
life,
because of the low
because of the inabil-
of the Arab people to rebel and say enough.
Do you remember when Khrushchev denounced
Stalin's
crimes during the Twentieth
Communist Congress? A
was raised
hall,
you,
at the
back of the
saying, ''And
Comrade Khrushchev?" Khrushchev
voice
where were
scrutinized the faces
no one, and said, "Who spoke up?" No

one answered. ''Who spoke up?" Khrushchev asked again.
And again no one answered. Then Khrushchev exclaimed,
"Comrade, was where you are now." Well, the Arab people
are just where Khrushchev was, where the man was who reproached him without having the courage to show his face.
before him, found
We
can only arrive
at
peace with the Arabs through an
evolution on their part that includes democracy. But wherever

I
turn
my
eyes to look,
don't see a
see only dictatorial regimes.
count
to his
even have
many
to
And
people for a peace he doesn't make.
account
for the dead.
Egyptian soldiers died
mothers,
shadow of democracy.
a dictator doesn't
sisters,
wives,
in
relatives
Who's
have
He
doesn't
ever found out how-
Only the
them come
the last two wars?
who
to ac-
didn't see
96
back.
Their leaders aren't even concerned
they're buried,
While you?
CM.: Look at these
O.F.:
if
they're buried.
five
biography of every
man and woman
when we
war, even
joy in our streets.
know where
to
.
volumes. They contain the photograph and
war. For us, every single death
make
While we
No
soldier
a tragedy.
is
win. After the
who
died in the
We
don't like to
one, there was no
last
dancing, no songs, no
festivities.
And
you should have seen our soldiers coming back victorious.

Each one was a picture of sadness. Not only because they had
seen their brothers die, but because they had had to
enemies.
speak.
Many
Or when
a refrain: "I
they opened their mouths,
had
to shoot.
Arabs. After the war

prisoners.
we
it
was
to repeat like
offered the Egyptians an exchange of
Seventy of theirs for ten of ours. They answered,
lahin, peasants. I'm afraid
Are you
their
killed." Just the opposite of the
''But yours are officers, ours are fellahin!
O.F.:
kill
locked themselves in their rooms and wouldn't
afraid that
It's
impossible." Fel-
war between
Israel
and the Arabs may
break out again?

G.M.: Yes.
It's
possible, yes. Because,
you
many
see,
Arabs are ready to sign an agreement with
us.
say that the
But, in these
regimes, who is to say that such an agreement

would be worth anything? Let's suppose that Sadat signs and
is then assassinated. Or simply eliminated. Who's to say that
his successor will respect the agreement signed by Sadat? Was
the truce that all the Arab countries had signed with us respected? Despite that truce, there was never peace on our
borders and today we're still waiting for them to attack us.
O.F.: But there's talk of an agreement today, Mrs. Meir. Even Sadat
dictatorial
is
talking about
was
G.M.:
it.
Isn't
it
easier to negotiate with Sadat than
it
to negotiate with Nasser?
Not
at all.
It's
exactly the same. For the simple reason that
Sadat doesn't want to negotiate with
him.
I've
and see
if
to negotiate with
down
at a table
flatly refuses.
He's not a
us.
been saying
I'm
it
more than ready
for years: "Let's
sit
we can arrange things, Sadat." He

bit ready to sit down at a table with
me. He goes on talking about the difference between an agreement and a treaty. He says he's ready for an agreement, but
Golda Meir
97
would mean recogSee what

mean? Sadat doesn't mean definite talks that would put an end
to the war, but a kind of cease-fire. And then he refuses to
not a peace
Because
treaty.
peace
treat>'
nition of Israel, diplomatic relations with Israel.
negotiate with us directly.
We
mediaries.
senseless, useless! In
It's
He
can't talk to
wants
to negotiate
through
inter-
each other through intermediaries!
1949
too, in
Rhodes,
after the
War
of
Independence, we signed an agreement with the Egyptians,

Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese. But
termediary, through Dr. Bunche,
Nations met
Great
O.F.
And
it
who on
was through an
with one group, then with another.
first
in-
behalf of the United

.
results.
the fact that Hussein
talking about peace
is
that isn't a
good sign either?

G.M.: I've said nice things about Hussein lately.
having talked about peace
for
I
in public.
believe Hussein. I'm sure that by
tile
it
would be
for
has understood that
he went
to
now
I'll
congratulated
he's realized
pen
how
fu-
him to embark on another war. Hussein

he made a terrible mistake in 1967, when
war with us without considering the message Esh-
had sent him: "Stay out of the war and nothing
kol
him
go further and say
to you.
He's understood that
"
it
was
will
hap-
a tragic piece of fool-
and his lies about bombing Tel

now he wants peace. But he wants it on his conditions. He claims the left bank of the Jordan, that is the West
Bank, he claims Jerusalem, he invokes the United Nations
ishness to listen to Nasser
Aviv. So
We once accepted a United Nations resoluwas when we were asked to divide Jerusalem. It was a
Resolution.
tion.
It
deep wound
know
in
the Jordanian army? No,

tered Jerusalem!
still we accepted. And we all

Were we maybe the ones to attack
our hearts, but
the consequences.
it
The Arabs
was the Jordanian army that enare really strange people: they lose
it.
After all, did we or didn't
Day War? Do we or don't we have the right to
our conditions? Since when in history does the one who at-
wars and then expect to gain by
we win
set
tacks
the Six
and
loses
have the right
They do nothing but

this, give up that
.
O.F.: Will
tell
to dictate
us: restore this,
terms
to the
winner?
restore that, gi\e
you ever give up Jerusalem, Mrs. Meir?
up
98
G.M.: No.
Never. No. Jerusalem no. Jerusalem never. Inadmis-
Jerusalem
sible.
is
We
out of the quastion.
won't even agree
to discuss Jerusalem.
Would you
O.F.:
On
G.M.:
give
up the West Bank of the Jordan?
this point there are differences of
opinion
Let
me make
myself clearer.
So
in Israel.
possible that we'd be ready to negotiate about the
it's
West Bank.
believe the majority of Israelis
would never ask the Knesset to give up the West Bank completely. However, if we should come to negotiate with Hussein, the majority of Israelis would be ready to hand back part
of the West Bank. I said part
let that be clear. And for the
moment the government hasn't decided either yes or no. Nor
have
Why
I.
should we quarrel
head of an Arab
us? Personally,
ate with us,
state says he's
think that
we might
give
if
among
ready to
ourselves before the
sit
down
at a table
Hussein should decide
him back
a part of the
with
to negoti-
West Bank.
Either after a decision by the government or parliament, or

after a
referendum.
We
could certainly hold a referendum on
this matter.
And Gaza? Would you
O.F.:
G.M.:
say that
opinion.
give up Gaza, Mrs. Meir?

Gaza must, should be part of Israel. Yes,
Our
opinion, in
fact.
However,
don't ask Hussein or Sadat to agree with

say,
"My
opinion, our opinion,
part of Israel.
down
at a table
know you
and
start
to
reach an agreement.
that
me on
Do
my
any point.
Gaza should remain
think otherwise. All right,
negotiating."
by no means indispensable
It's
before the negotiations:
is
that's
to start negotiating,
let's
sit
make myself clear?
to find ourselves in
agreement
we hold
negotiations precisely in order
When
state that
be divided, that Jerusalem will remain
Jerusalem will never
in Israel,
don't
mean
mention Jerusalem. I don't

even mean that they shouldn't mention Gaza. They can bring
that Hussein or Sadat shouldn't
up anything they like at the time of negotiations.

And the Golan Heights?
G.M.: It's more or less the same idea. The Syrians would like us to
come down from the Golan Heights so that they can shoot
down at us as they did before. Needless to say, we have no in-
O.F.:
tention of doing so, we'll never
come down from
the plateau.
Nevertheless, we're ready to negotiate with the Syrians too.
Golda Meir
On
And our
our conditions.
border between Syria and
conditions consist in defining a
Israel that stabilizes
our presence up
In other words, the Syrians today find themselves ex-
there.
actly
99
where the border ought

Because only
yield.
to be.
On
this
don't think we'll
they stay where they are today can they
if
down
be kept from shooting
at
us as they did for nineteen
years.
And
O.F.:
G.M.:
the Sinai?
We've never
the Sinai.
Sharm
we wanted
said that
We
the whole Sinai or most of
don't want the whole Sinai.
We
El Sheikh and part of the desert,
desert,
connecting
Must
repeat
it?
Is
that clear?
Maybe we
don't even want half of the Sinai. Because

us to be sitting along the
that the
Suez Canal
them
even represents
it
say a strip of
El Sheikh.
don't want most of the Sinai.
Israel
We
Sharm
with
want control of
let's
is
it's
not important to
Suez Canal. We're the
first
to realize
too important to the Egyptians, that to
We
a question of prestige.
also
know
Suez Canal isn't necessary for our defense. We're

ready to give it up as of today. But we won't give up Sharm El
Sheikh and a strip of desert connecting us with Sharm El
that the
Sheikh. Because
leave
Sharm
we want our
ships to be able to enter
we
El Sheikh. Because
and
don't want to find our-
we found ourselves in the other

when we gave up Sharm El Sheikh. Because we don't
want to take the risk of waking up again some morning with
selves again in the conditions
time,
the Sinai
full
of Egyptian troops.
these terms, are
me
O.F.:
we ready
On
these terms, and only
on
with the Egyptians.
To
to negotiate
they seem very reasonable terms.
And
so
it's
obvious that you'll never go back to your old
borders.
G.M.: Never.
And when
annex new
fense,
territory.
our survival.
say never,
It's
it's
because we
If there's
any
not because
mean
possibilit>'
peace you spoke of in the beginning,
There'd never be peace
if
this
we mean
to
ensure our de-
to
of reaching the
is
the only way.
the Syrians were to return to the
Golan Heights, if the Egyptians were to take back the whole

Sinai, if we were to re-establish our 1967 borders with Hussein. In 1967, the distance to Natanya and the sea was barely
ten miles, fifteen kilometers.
If
we
give Hussein the possibility
lOO
of covering those fifteen kilometers, Israel
two and
They accuse
me, we're not
believe
new
terested in
interested in expanding.
And
borders.
1967 borders.
to the
risks
If
being cut
us of being expansionists,
look, these Arabs
in
but,
We're only inwant to go back
why
those borders were the right ones,
did they destroy them?

O.F.: Mrs. Meir, so far we've
been talking about agreements, nego-
But since the 1967
tiations, treaties.
Middle East has taken on
new
war
cease-fire, the
in the
face: the face of terror, of ter-
What do you think of this war and the men who are
it? Of Arafat, for instance, of Habash, of the Black
rorism.
conducting
September leaders?
G.M.:
simply think they're not men.
human
don't even consider
and the worst thing you can say of
beings,
them
man
is
human being. It's like saying he's an animal,

isn't it? But how can you call what they're doing "a war"?
Don't you remember what Habash said when he had a bus full
that he's not a
of
children blown up?
Israeli
they're
war.
still
It's
ment
at the
was one
struggle.
party
One
the Israelis while
kill
movement because
that rose
up
considered
that
day a
isn't
move-
can't be called revolutionary.
beginning of the century in Russia,
movement
lutionary
kill
best to
on, what they're doing
not even a revolutionary
that only wants to
Look,
"It's
Come
children."
man from
to
in the revo-
overthrow the czar, there
terror
this party
means of
only
the
was sent with
bomb
where the carriage of one of the czar's high

officials was supposed to pass. The carriage went by at the expected time. But the official was not alone, he was accom-
to a street corner
panied by his wife and children. So what did

tionary do?
He
hand and was blown

groups during the
And
to pieces.
War
was opposed
of Independence: the Stern, the Irgun.
them,
to
was always opposed
But neither of them ever covered

Arabs have done with
us.
ever provoked tragedies like
And how can one

ally think
it
fight
helps to
itself
to
them.
with such infamy as the
Neither of them ever put bombs in
supermarkets or dynamite
O.F.:
this true revolu-
bomb. He let it go off in his

Look, we too had our terrorist
didn't throw the
in
school buses. Neither of
Munich
or
Lod
such terrorism, Mrs. Meir?
bomb Lebanese
them
airport.
villages?
Do you
re-
Golda Meir
G.M.:
To
Of course. Because the fedayeen are

The Lebanese themselves say, "Certain
a certain extent, yes.
those
in
loi
villages.
So
Fatah territory."
Al
are
areas
cleaned up.
It's
the Lebanese
should be
areas
certain
who
should think of cleaning
up. The Lebanese say they can't do anything. Well,

what Hussein used to say at the time when the fedayeen
were encamped in Jordan. Even our American friends said it:
''It's not that Hussein doesn't want to get rid of them! It's that
he doesn't have enough strength to get rid of them." But in
September 1970, when Amman was in danger and his palace
was in danger and he himself found himself in danger, Hus-
them
that's
sein realized that
he could do something. And he liquidated
the Lebanese go on doing nothing, we'll respond,
them.
If
"Very
well.
thing.
But we can. And
We
your
realize
difficulties.
You
show you,
just to
do any-
can't
bomb
we'll
those
areas that shelter the fedayeen."
Maybe more than any
other Arab country,
Lebanon
is
offer-
The Japanese who carried out

Lod massacre came from Lebanon. The girls who tried to
ing hospitality to the terrorists.
the
hijack the
Sabena plane
in
Lebanon. Are we supposed
Tel Aviv had been trained
to sit
in
here with our hands folded,
praying and murmuring, "Let's hope that nothing happens"?
What
Praying doesn't help.

possible
like.
that's
helps
is
to counterattack.
With
all
means, including means that we don't necessarily
Certainly we'd rather fight
not possible
them
in the
open. But since
would you be ready to talk with Arafat or Habash?

CM.: Never! Not with them! Never! What is there to discuss with
O.F.: Mrs. Meir,
who haven't even the courage to risk their own skins

and consign the bombs to someone else? Like those two Arabs
people
in
Rome,
for
player with a
want
example.
bomb
to arrive at
to the
regime
isn't
two stupid English
peace with the Arab
governments of the Arab

their
The ones who handed
states,
the
record
Listen,
we
with responsible
whatever their regime, since
our concern. But
Arafat, Black September,
states,
girls.
to
people
we have nothing
like
to say.
Habash,
The
jx?oplc
to talk to are others.
O.F.:
Do you mean
G.M.: Exactly.
us Fûropeans, Mrs. Meir?
The Europeans, and
not only the Europeans, must
102
decide to stop this business that you
been too
there's
me
much
that has
say,
never exhausted
is
shown
Jews. History has
in the suffering of just
that anti-Semitism in the world has
always brought on disaster for everyone.
It
begins by torment-
To
ing the Jews and ends by tormenting anybody.
example, there was that
trite
about
don't
and no
it,
and today
reacted,
madman
inal
If
he had said
air piracy
wouldn't
air piracy
can hijack
you
a
It
to Algeria.
it
was too bad, others were happy
dreamed of
pilot
Algeria."
fly to
nightmare of
it
give
airplane that was hijacked.
first
was an El Al plane, remember? They hijacked

Well, some people said
now
to
tolerance, let
unextinguished anti-Semitism.
roots in
its
But anti-Semitism
Up
war.
call
tolerance on your part.
this, if
"From now on
they had said
exist today.
is
declaring,
it,
this
no one
Instead
custom of our times. Any
plane to indulge his madness, any crim-
can hijack a plane
to extort
money. You don't need
politi-
cal reasons.
But
its
let's
get back to
Europe and the
fact that terrorism has
headquarters in Europe. In every European capital there
movements, and you know

offices. But you do
them.
You'll
sorry.
Thanks
to your inertia
nothing against
be
and your indulgence, terror will be multiplied and you'll pay
the price of it too. Haven't the Germans already done so?
are offices of so-called liberation
very well
O.F.: Yes,
it's
not a matter of harmless
you were very hard on the Germans
after they released
the three Arabs.
Oh, you must try to understand what the Munich tragedy

meant to us! The very fact that it happened in Germany
I mean, postwar Germany is not Nazi Germany. I know Willy
Brandt; I always meet him at socialist conferences; he was
once here too, when he was mayor of Berlin, and I'm well
aware that he fought the Nazis. Not for a moment did I think
G.M.:
that he
You
was glad
see, I've
to release those Arabs.
never been able to
relations with
mind and
heart.
prime minister,
Germany.
For us
Germany.
set foot in
Austria and can't bring myself to enter

Jews,
But Germany
go to
Germany are such a conflict between

Don't make me say such things. I'm
.
have certain responsibilities
Look,
let

Golda Meir
me
conclude by saying that
helped.
The
my
harsh judgment couldn't be
made by
statements
ing insult to injury. After
all it
103
the
was
participated in the killing of eleven
now
unarmed
Israelis
add-
like
Arabs
who had
and who
will try to kill others.
Mrs. Meir, do you
O.F.:
Germans were
a matter of
know what many people
think? That Arab
terrorism exists and will always exist as long as there are Palestinian refugees.
G.M.: That's not so, because terrorism has
national evil
become
people
a sickness that strikes
kind of inter-
who
have nothing
do with Palestinian refugees. Take the example of the Japanese who carried out the Lod massacre. Are the Israelis oc-
to
cupying any Japanese

wherever
As
territory?
for the
refugees,
listen:
war breaks out there are refugees. Palestinian
refu-
gees aren't the only ones in the world; there are Pakistani,
Hindu, Turkish, German ones. For heaven's

millions of
now
German
were
sake, there
refugees along the Polish border that's
And
yet Germany assumed the responsiwho were its own people. And the
Sudeten Germans? Nobody thinks the Sudeten Germans
should go back to Czechoslovakia they themselves know
inside Poland.
for these
bility
people,
never go back. In the ten years
they'll
tions meetings,
never heard anyone
attended United Na-
about the Sudeten
talk
Germans who were thrown out of Czechoslovakia.
Why
does
everyone get so emotional about the Palestinians and no one

else?
But the case of the Palestinians
O.F.:
cause
is
different,
Mrs. Meir, be-
It certainly is. Do you know why? Because when there's a war

and people run away, they usually run away to countries with
G.M.:
a different
own
The Palestinians instead fled

own language was spoken and their
language and religion.
to countries
where
their
religion observed.
They
fled to Syria,
where nobody ever did anything

the Egyptians
tinians to
weapon
who
took
Gaza
work and kept them
in
to
Lebanon, Jordan
help them. As for Egypt,
didn't even allow the
poverty so as to use
against us. That's always been the policy of the
countries: to use the refugees as a
weapon
Pales-
them
against us.
as a
Arab
Ham-
104
marskjold had proposed a development plan for the Middle
and
East,
this
plan provided
of
first
the resettlement of
all for
the Palestinian refugees. But the Arab countries said no.
you
O.F.: Mrs. Meir, don't
G.M.:
Of course
But
do.
at least feel a little sorry for
pity
is
the Palestinians
sibility for
them?
not responsibility, and the responisn't ours,
We
the Arabs'.
it's
in
Israel have absorbed about 1,400,000 Arab Jews: from Iraq,

from Yemen, from Egypt, from Syria, from North African
who when they got here were

know how to do anything. Among
thousand Jews who came here from Yemen, for
countries like Morocco. People
of diseases and didn't
full
the seventy
example, there wasn't
them had
a single doctor or a single nurse,
And
and
al-
we took them, and

built hospitals for them, and took care of them, we educated
them, put them in clean houses, and turned them into
most
of
all
tuberculosis.
farmers, doctors, engineers, teachers
who came
Jews
group of
Of
helped them.
Among
the 150,000
and
yet today their children go to the
we have problems with them all that

the fact remains that we accepted and
course,
not gold
thing for their
here from Iraq, there was only a very small
intellectuals,
university.
glitters is
still
but
The
own
Arabs, on the other hand, never do anypeople.
They make
use of
them and
that's
all.
O.F.:
Mrs. Meir, what
if
Israel
let
the Palestinian refugees
come
back here?
G.M.: Impossible. Eor twenty years they've been fed on hatred for
us;
they can't
come back among
born here, they were born
know
in the
that they
must
found arithmetic books
in the
they
like this:
many
is
"You have
Israelis
kill
us.
Their children weren't
camps, and the only thing

Israelis,
destroy Israel.
Gaza schools
five Israelis.
You
are left to be killed?"
kill
that put
problems
three of them.
When
We
How
you teach such
no more hope.
no other solua solution. It was
things to children of seven or eight, there's
Oh,
it
would be
tion for
a great
them but
misfortune
to return here!
if
there were
But there
is
demonstrated by the Jordanians when they gave them citizenship and called on them to build a country called Jordan. Yes,
what Abdullah and Hussein did was much better than what
the Egyptians did. But did you know that in the good old days
Golda Meir
in
105
Jordan, Palestinians were holding office as prime minister
and foreign minister? Did you know that
of
after the partition
1922 Jordan had only three hundred thousand Bedouins and
why ...
they accept Jordan as their country,
Because they don't recognize themselves
O.F.:
Why
refugees were in the majorit>'?
that Palestinian
didn't
as Jordanians,
Mrs.
Meir. Because they say they are Palestinians and that their
home is in Palestine, not Jordan.

Then we have to understand what we mean by the word Palestine. We must remember that when England assumed the
G.M.:
mandate over
Palestine,
Palestine was the land included be-
tween the Mediterranean and the borders of

by the same high commissioner.
titioned
and the
it,
territory west
This Pales-
Iraq.
and was even governed
tine covered both banks of the Jordan,
Then
1922 Churchill par-
in
of the Jordan became Cisjor-
dania, and the territory east of the Jordan

dania.
Two names
for the
became Transjorsame people. Abdullah, Hussein's
grandfather, had Transjordania and later he also took over Cisjordania, but,
repeat,
Before
Palestine.
Hussein. But Arafat

at the
end of the
called Palestine:
the
Israel,
same people. The same

Arafat should
He
talk
I'll
And
customs
Shut up
yet they survived,
not
recognized
Russia,
in ghettos, persecuted,
exterminated.
and they never stopped being
just for this
should have their
CM.: Look,
I'xe
England, Ara-
It's
Italy,
a people,
and they came together again to found a nation.

O.F.: But that's just what the Palestinians want, Mrs. Meir:
a nation.
remind you that
their language wasn't spoken, their religion
their
that,
wasn't
Jews were refugees par excellence! Dispersed
Czechoslovakia, Poland, Cermany, France,

bia, Africa
Israel
And then
Syria.
about refugees,
is
liquidate
know
doesn't even
was called Southern
where
not observed,
still
World War, what now
First
it
for centuries the

in countries
was
so ignorant.
is
we must
after all! If
it
liquidating
state
reason that
some people
to
form
say they
on the West Bank.
already explained that to cast and west of the Jor-
dan you find the same people. I've already explained that once
they were called Palestinians and later were called Jordanians.
If
I
they
now want
couldn't care
to call
less.
It's
themsehes Palestinians or Jordanians,

none of mv business. But it is mv busi-
lo6
up another Arab
ness that they don't set
and what
now
is
state
between
Israel
called Jordan. In the stretch of land between
the Mediterranean and the borders of Iraq, there's
only tuo countries: one Arab and one Jewish.
If
room for
we sign a
peace treaty with Hussein and define our borders with Jordan,
whatever happens on the other side of the border won't concern
The
Israel.
come
Palestinians can
to
any arrangement
they like with Hussein; they can call that state what they
give
it
any regime they
Arab
state doesn't
want
it.
We
like.
The important
thing
is
emerge between us and Jordan.

it.
Because it would come
can't allow
like,
that a third
We
to
don't
be used
as a dagger against us.
up another subject. And here it is.

one has a dream, this dream feeds on utopia. And
when the dream is realized, one discovers that
utopia is
utopia. Are you satisfied with what Israel is today?
O.F.: Mrs. Meir, I'd like to take
When
woman.
G.M.: I'm a frank

I
who
is
what
has always laid great
her socialism, well,

I'll
answer you frankly. As
I'll
can't say that Israel
explain. For
cialism.
that's
know
how
Israel
me, the
dreamed. As
stress
is
a socialist, no.
a Jewish socialist
on the Jewish component in

dreamed. Now
more than what
Zionism
realization of
is
part of so-
that other socialists won't agree with
think of
I'm not objective about
it.
me, but
this,
and
think there are a couple of gross injustices in the world: the
one oppressing black Africans and the one oppressing Jews.

And besides I think these two injustices can only be corrected
by socialist principles.
been the purpose of

fifty
years ago,
sovereign
state.
To
my
see justice for the Jewish people has
life
and
had no hopes
We
...
to cut
at all that
do have one now, so
short, forty or
it
the Jews
it
would have a
seem to me
doesn't
and defects. We have

where we can realize our
ideals of socialism that before were just hanging in the air.
That's already a lot. Of course, if I were really to examine my
right to
a soil
worry too
thoughts
What
O.F.:
much
about
where we can put our
is
faults
you don't
it
its
feet,
like
in
Israel?
What
is
it
that's disap-
pointed you?
G.M.:
Oh ...
think that none of us dreamers realized in the
Me ir
Golda
beginning what
difficulties
107
would come up. For example, we
who had
grown up in such different countries and remained divided
from each other for so many centuries. Jews have come here
from all over the world, as we wanted, yes. But each group
had its own language, its own culture, and to integrate it with
other groups has been much more difficult than it seemed in
hadn't foreseen the problem of bringing together Jews
theory.
me
gave
There was bound
disappointment and
but
naive,
foolish,
homogenous nation with peo-
not easy to create an
It's
ple so different.
wouldn't be the
prostitution
thought that
evils that afflict
...
Also
grief.
in
Jewish
we have
other societies. Theft, murder,
no murders, there was no
everything, everything.
haven't created a
no
fort)'
CM.:
And
instead
something that
it's
hurts
still
believe in socialism as
still
the basic idea.
still
you did
years ago?
Essentially, yes. That's
honest, one must look at things realistically.

that there's a big difference
between
cialism as put to a practical
test.
come
for a
and
thefts,
Now
prostitution.
more than to discover that you

more just, a more equal society.
it
Mrs. Meir, but do you
O.F.:
there
thought so because we had started out well.
breaks your heart;
state
it
me
you'll think
Fifteen years ago in Israel there were almost

there were
And
to be a clash.
to
But
be
to
One must admit
socialist ideology
and
All socialist parties that
so-
have
form governments and assumed the responsibilities
country have had to stoop
to
compromise. Not only
that,
ever since socialists have been in power in individual countries,
international socialism has declined.
be an international
was
socialist
when
was
It
was one thing
a girl, that
is
to
when no
The
power, and quite another now.
socialist
party
dream
had, the dream of a just world united in socialism,
in
has gone to the devil. National interests have prevailed over

international interests,
themselves to be
of
all
This
first
and the Swedish
of
all
socialists
Swedes, the English
have shown
socialists first
Englishmen, the Jewish socialists first of all Jews.

began to understand during the war in Spain. In a
countries there were socialists in power. But they didn't

finger for the Spanish socialists.
lot
lift
of
a
lo8
But what socialism are we talking about, Mrs. Meir?
O.F.:
do you agree with Nenni when he says that
mean,
come
he's
to prefer
Swedish socialism?
Of course! Because, you see, you can have

but when you're dreaming, you're not
G.M.:
like,
you wake up, you
common
with
To
think, that's so necessary.

illiterate,
and
lege
exists.
still
be
And when
Soviet Russia
poor,
isn't
At the United Nations
it
And
yet there the people don't dare speak.
...
in
little
be able to say what you
free, to
the dreams you
awake.
your dream has very
realize that
reality.
all
isn't
privi-
never saw any
difference between the foreign ministers of socialist countries
and the foreign ministers of reactionary countries.

by abstaining from voting, they even
ing us war criminals.
met them
And
my
told
let a
year ago,
resolution pass call-
socialist colleagues
when
Vienna Conference: "Your country abstained

from voting. So that makes me a war criminal, eh?" But you
Nenni is something else.
were speaking of Pietro Nenni
at the
Nenni's
a separate
one of the
best individuals existing in the world today. Because
such rectitude
he's so honest, there's
such courage of his convictions!

I'm proud to be able to call
else.
course
think the
same
Mrs. Meir, do you
O.F.:
you?
I've
chapter in the history of socialism. Nenni's
as
him, such humanity,
him
a friend.
no one
like
And ...
of
he does about socialism!
know what
been wondering
in
admire him
if
so
I've
been thinking, listening
much
to
sadness hasn't
made you
my
illusions,
cynical, or at least disillusioned.
G.M.:
Oh,
no!
that's all.
socialist
Me, I'm not

For example,
one
I've lost
I
thought that a
was always an honest person, incapable of
Now know
I
at all cynical!
forty or fifty years ago,
instead that a socialist
else, capable of lying like
honestly like anyone
is
anyone
human
else,
telling lies.
being
like
and behaving
else. That's sad, of course, but
it's
anydis-
not
enough to make you lose your faith in man! Not enough to

conclude: man is fundamentally bad. No, no! Look, when I
meet someone, I always think that this is an honest person and
I go on thinking so until I have proof to the contrary. If later I
do have proof to the contrar>', I still don't say that that person
is bad. I say that he or she has behaved badly with me. After
all, I'm not suspicious. I never expect the worst from people.
Golda Meir
109
if I'd call myself an optimist. At my

much of a luxury. But, look, in my long
life I've seen so much evil, that's true. In return, I've also seen
And if in my memory
so much good. So very much.
go over the many individuals I've known, believe me, there
And ...
don't
optimism
age,
is
know
too
are very few
But are you
O.F.:
Oh,
G.M.: No!
No,
girl.
faith.
can judge
when was a little

come from a religious
never have been. Not even
this attitude of
mine
comes from my
It
completely negative way.
Mrs. Meir?
religious,
no!
in a
doesn't
men, from my
instinctive faith in
stubborn love for humanity.
Religion
You know, my
Only my grandfather
him you go very far back in time, you
go back to the days when we lived in Russia. In America, you
we spoke Hebrew among ourselves, we observed the
see
holidays, but we went to temple very seldom. I only went for
family was traditional but not religious.
was
religious, but with
New
the
The
sit.
in
my mother and
Year, to go with
only time
I've
find her a place to
followed the prayers in a synagogue was
Moscow. And you know what I say?

religious. Maybe.
If I'd
stayed in Russia,
might have become
O.F.:
Why?
G.M.: Because in Russia the synagogue
can express themselves. Listen
Moscow
mission.
in
1948 by
my
me
and
said,
gathered
"Take
the only place where Jews
what
to
government,
Before leaving
going with
is
all
when
did
the synagogue." Well,
course, the
and
the people
all
just
Saturday no one knew
how
I'd
it
go
found hardly two hundred people
to
who were
meet Jews only

happened.
to the
there.
Of
synagogue
Or
little
Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, and for

Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the\ came in thousands.
more. But
Yom
first
that's
was sent
your prayer books, prayer
shawls, yarmulkes, everything. I'm sure we'll

in
head of the diplomatic
as
for
stayed in the s\nagogue from
moment when
morning
the rabbi intoned the
last
to night,
and
at
the
sentence of the prayer
of atonement, the one that says ''Leshana habaa b'Yerusha-
laym, next year
in
Jerusalem," the whole synagogue seemed to
And I, who am an emotional woman,

You understand, it wasn't like being in Buenos
tremble.
prayed.
Really.
Aires or
New
York
and saying,
"Next year
in
Jerusalem."
From
no
Buenos Aires, New York, you take a plane and you go. There
in Moscow, the invocation took on a special meaning. And
while praying, I said, "God, make it really happen! If not next
year, in a few years." Does God exist and did he listen to me?
happening.
really
It's
O.F.
Mrs. Meir, don't you
some sentimental
feel
You know, many
G.M.: No, none.
my
of
friends
with Russia?
tie
who
left
adults say that they feel attached to that country, to

literature,
its
those things.
sia
was too
and of Russia
eight,
little
scenery,
didn't get time to appreciate
when
Russia;
left
was only
only have bad memories. No, from Rus-
me
didn't take with
memories up
But
music.
its
Russia as
its
even
a single
moment
of joy
all
the age of eight are tragic memories.
to
my
The
nightmare of pogroms, the brutality of the Gossacks charging
down on young
packed
know
first
memory
windows
the door and
to
our house and killing

nails
hoofs
horses'
that's the
luggage
my
life?
My
father nailing
up
keep the Gossacks from breaking into
Oh, that sound of the hammer

wooden planks! Oh, the sound of
us.
into the
when
in
Do you
Russia and carried to the United States.
in
what's the
pounding
shrieking
socialists, fear,
the
Gossacks are advancing along our
street!
O.F.:
How
old were you, Mrs. Meir?
G.M.: Five or
remember everything
my
and the day
in Kiev,
States
But
six.
We
father
left
We
so vividly.
Kiev to go
to the
lived
United
were very poor, we didn't even have enough
and he thought of going to America for a year or two,

little money and coming back. In the early 1900s, to
the Jews America was a kind of bank where you went to pick
up the dollars scattered on the sidewalks and came back with
your pockets full. So my father left Kiev, but Kiev was a city
to eat,
saving a
forbidden to Jews
my
father's,
had
to leave too.
And we went
was
ity
who
didn't have a job, for
in 1903.
to Pinsk,
We
I,
my
mother,
fact,
my
stayed in Pinsk until 1905,
of the czarist regime reached
of 1905, in
example
a job like
he being a craftsman, and once he had
was
together and arrest
a dirty lie
them more
its
height.
two
left,
sisters.
we
That
when the brutalThe Gonstitution
a trick to gather the socialists
easily.
And my
elder
sister,
who
Golda Meir
was nine years older than
ment. Her
belonged
I,
my mother
late at night,
crazy because our house was next to
where they brought the young
a police station
They
moveand it
to the socialist
her out
political activities kept
used to drive
ill
socialists they'd
them to death and every night

you heard such cries! My mother always thought she could
recognize my sister's voice. "It's she! It's she!" Oh, we were so
happy when my father wrote us to join him in America beand
arrested
beat
cause in America things were good!

O.F.:
You're very attached to America, aren't you?
G.M.: Yes, and not only because
America
went
twenty. Because
How
in
America, because
lived there until
can
my
ter-
me
lost
between America and Russia? Look, when we arrived,
more than
little
and
my
my
eight years old,
younger one four and a
in
was almost
explain the difference for
because in America
well,
ror of Pinsk, of Kiev.
grew up
and
to school,
was
elder sister was seventeen,
My
half.
father
was working
and belonged to the union. He was very proud of his union,

and two months later, on Labor Day, he said to my mother,
"Today
you
there's a parade. If
all
come
to the
corner of such
and such a street, you'll see me marching with my union!"

My mother took us along, and while we were there waiting for
the parade, along
the marchers
came
do you
old sister couldn't
the
see?
know
my
The
Cossacks!"
peating:
knew
police to clear a path for
little
four-and-a-half-year-
and when she saw the police on

tremble and then to cry, 'The Cos-
We
had
to take her
father the satisfaction of seeing
union, and she stayed
my
that,
horseback, she began to

sacks!
mounted
But
in
bed
away, without giving
him marching
for days
"The Cossacks! The Cossacks!" So,

is
a place
where
men on
with his
with a high fever,

look, the
re-
America
horseback protect a parade of
knew is a place where men on horseback

massacre Jews and young socialists.
o.F.: That's not exactly how it is, Mrs. Meir, but anyway
G.M.: Oh, listen! America is a great country'. It has many faults,
workers, the Russia
many
social
inequalities,
problem wasn't resolved

still
and
fift\'
it's
or a
tragedy that the Negro
hundred years ago, but
it's
a great country, a country full of opportunity, of freedom!
Does
it
seem
to
you nothing
to
be able to say what you
like, to
112
what you
write
even against the government, the Es-
like,
tabhshment? Maybe I'm not objective, but
America
for
feel
such gratitude! I'm fond of America, okay?
Okay. We've
O.F.:
shall
we
man
in
talk
my
come
finally
called ''the ablest
cabinet"?
up around me.
G.M.: That's one of the legends that's grown

a legend I've always
compliment.
great
Golda Meir. So
to the figure of
woman Ben-Gurion
about the
found
Is it?
though
irritating,
wouldn't say
so.
men
also
It's
use
as a
it
Because what does
mean? That it's better to be a man than a woman, a

on which I don't agree at all. So here's what I'd like
to say to those who make me such a compliment: And what if
Ben-Gurion had said, 'The men in my cabinet are as able as a
it
really
principle
woman"? Men
happened
I
made
always
a speech,
of mine.
An
feel so superior!
congress of
at a
and
my
York
audience there was
in the
honest person,
When
never forget what
I'll
New
party in
man
in the 1930s.
a writer friend
of great culture and refine-
was over, he came up to me and exclaimed,

"Congratulations! You've made a wonderful speech! And to
ment.
it
think you're only a
woman!"
That's just what he said, in such
a spontaneous, instinctive way.
of humor.
good thing
have a sense
The Women's
O.F.:
It's
Movement
Liberation
will
like
that,
Mrs.
Meir.
G.M.:
Do you mean
around
all
those crazy
women who
burn their bras and go
men? They're crazy. Grazy.

such crazy women who think it's a
disheveled and hate
But how can one accept
misfortune to get pregnant and a disaster to bring children into

the world?
And when
over men! Feminism
the greatest privilege
it's
.
Listen,
time of the First World War,
and
I've
O.F.:
was sixteen or seventeen,
movement,
woman
men
all
my
has never, never
never
made me uncomfortable
plex.
Men
and
life,
I
say,
or given
have always been good
Are you saying you prefer them
to
to
When
found only hvo other
ninety percent of my comrades were men.
and worked among

being a
never belonged to a women's organization.
joined the Zionist labor
women
when
we women have
got into politics at the
yet to
me
I've lived
the fact of
been an obstacle.
me
an
me.
women?
inferiority
It's
com-
Golda Meir
113
G.M.: No, I'm saying that I've never suffered on account of
because
me
was
woman.
men
I'm saying that
men
have never given
my
women have
my personal
special treatment but neither have they put obstacles in
Of course
way.
been lucky, of course not
I've
had the same experience, but be that

only one point on which
woman
may,
it
are right. There's
agree with them: to be successful, a
much more
has to be
as
women
case doesn't prove that those crazy
all
capable than
man. Whether
she dedicates herself to a profession or dedicates herself to poli-
There
tics.
aren't
me
that bothers
many women in our parliament, something

And these few women, let me assure
a lot.
means
you, are by no
less
capable than men. In
much more capable. So

women there still exist so many
often
tices, that
when
list is
ridiculous
it's
reservations, so
men? Wouldn't
it
toward
many
injus-
being drawn up for the elections, for
example, only men's names get chosen. But

of
fact, they're
that
be,
is
it
all
the fault
the fault of
at least partly,
women
too?
O.F.: Mrs. Meir, you've just said that to be successful a
to
be
mean
CM.:
much more
more
it's
difficult to
Yes, of course.
More
be a
woman
more
difficult,
sons, I'd say. After
want only
also
wants
all,
it's
the
men
woman who
raises the children.
man?
more painful. But
for biological rea-
gives birth.
And when
to give birth, to raise children
work, to be somebody
to
has
than a
tiring,
not necessarily through the fault of
woman who
woman
capable than a man. Doesn't that perhaps
a
.
well,
It's
the
woman
doesn't
when
woman
it's
hard. Hard,
hard.
know it from personal experience. You're at your job
and you think of the children you've left at home. You're at
home and you think of the work you're not doing. Such a
I
struggle breaks out in you, your heart goes to pieces.
you
Unless
where life is organized in such a way

that you can both work and have children. Outside the kibbutz, it's all running around, trying to be in two places at
live
in a kibbutz,
once, getting upset, and

reflected
band
is
on the
well, all this can't help but be
structure of the family. Kspecially
if
Nour hus-
not a social animal like yourself and feels uncomfort-
able with an active wife, a wife for
only a wife.
Hiere has
to
whom
it's
be a clash.
not enough to be
And
the clash
mav
114
even break up the marriage. As happened

paid for being what
what
O.F.: In
am. I've paid

Mrs. Meir?
sense,
G.M.: In the sense of
when
children,
I
little,
...
so often.
you
see,
suffered a lot
I
member how happy
they were,
work because of
"Mamma's
laughed and sang,

headache!"
have
know
my
on
Menahem, even today when

And still
.
my
that
account.
my
Oh,
be.
to
every time
children,
re-
headache. They jumped and

staying
Mamma
home!
they're adults
still
have
to
has a
Sarah and
great sense of guilt toward
of their own.
I've
was never with them when
should have been and would have liked

didn't go to
me. Yes,
to
a lot.
pain. Because,
they were
them alone
left
and have children

be honest and ask
myself, Golda, deep in your heart do you really regret the fact
you behaved as you did with them? No. Not deep in my

Because through suffering I gave them a life that's more
that
heart.
mean, they didn't

narrow family environment. They met important
interesting, less banal than the ordinary.
grow up
in a
people, they heard serious discussions, they took part in big

things.
And
if
thing. They'll
made
she
you
tell
them,
talk to
you: "Yes,
they'll
Mamma
you the same
tell
neglected us too
much,
us suffer by her absence, her politics, by not paying
we can't bear her a grudge because, being

way she was, she gave us so much more than any other
attention to us, but
the
mother!"
If
you knew how proud
time when we were
handbills that the boys and

the walls at night.
My
felt
the day that
fighting the
British,
girls in
...
I
In 1948, the
was writing the
movement pasted on
know was the one who
the
daughter didn't
was writing those handbills, and one day she said
"Mamma,
back."
Then
I'll
be back
"Why?"
late tonight.
asked, alarmed. "I can't
ting
tell
to
won't
you.
up handbills
at
what was
in that package,
night was very dangerous.
me,
come
Mamma."
Nobody
she went out with a package under her arm.
could know better than
dawn
And maybe
and put-
stayed
up
till
waiting for Sarah, cursing myself in the fear that some-
thing had happened to her. But at the same time
proud of her!
was so
Golda Meir
O.F.:
115
Mrs. Meir, that sense of guilt that you

dren, did you also feel
...
G.M.: Let's not talk about that
...
see,
never
talk
about
my husband
was also
home,
don't want to talk about
Well,
it
You
let's try.
him was good. But he
who was
only interested in his family, his
music, his books.
He was aware of social problems,

to his home and the unity of his
when
of course, but
it
came
family, they lost whatever interest they
from him.
different
all right,
was an extraordinarily nice person. Edu-
person
his
it
good. Everything about
cated, kind,
toward your chil-
feel
toward your husband?
it
had
for
him.
had always been. Domestic
was too
wasn't
bliss
enough for me, had to be doing what I was doing! To give it

up would have seemed to me an act of cowardice, of dishonesty with myself.
would have become set in my discontent,
1
in sadness.
met my husband when I was just fifteen. We got married

him learned all the beautiful things like
music and poetry. But I wasn't bom to be satisfied with music
and poetry, and ... He wanted me to stay home and forget
about politics. Instead I was always out, always in politics and
... Of course have a sense of guilt toward him too. ... I
made him suffer so much, him too. ... He came to Israel
I
very soon, and from
because
because
wanted
wanted
that didn't suit
to
to
come
him because
couldn't do without.
Because, as
ferent
woman
to Israel.
be on a kibbutz.
say,
...
he was
It
He came to the kibbutz

He took up a way of life
was the kind of
it
was
a tragedy.
that
life
great tragedy.
wonderful person and with
a dif-
he could have been very happy.
you ever make an effort to adapt yourself to him, to

him?
G.M.; Eor him
made the biggest sacrifice of my life: left the kib-
O.F.: Didn't
please
butz.
You
butz.
see, there
was nothing
liked everything
and
swamps and
trees, fruits,
have spent
in
the
beginning
sand, but soon
and
it
just to look at
my whole
much
as the kib-
about the kibbutz: the manual work,
the comradeship, the discomforts.

Jezreel,
loved so
life
it
Ours was
became
it
there.
in the valley of
had nothing
gave
me
garden
to
full
offer
but
of orange
such joy that
could
Instead he couldn't stand
it.
Il6
neither psychologically nor physically.

ing at the
communal
He
stand the hard work.
had
couldn't stand eat-
He
couldn't
couldn't stand the climate and the
feeling of being part of a

ualistic,
He
table with the rest of us.
community. He was too individHe got sick and ... we
too introverted, too delicate.
to leave,
of pain that
go back
still
to the city, to
goes through
tragedy for me, but
more
And
Tel Aviv.
It
like a needle.
put up with
the family would be
wasn't like that.
me
it,
tranquil
was
It
really a
thinking that in the city
and more united. But
1938 we separated. Then
in
a feeling
was
in
it
1951 he
died.
Wasn't he proud of you,
O.F.:
G.M.:
don't
know ...
thought in the
at least in the last years?
don't think so.
don't
and besides he was
last years,
so
know what he
withdrawn that
nobody would have been able to guess it. Anyway his tragedy
come from the fact of not understanding me he understood me very well. It came from the fact that he did understand me, and at the same time realized he couldn't change
me. In short, he knew I had no choice, that I had to be what I
was. But he didn't approve, that's it. And who knows if he
didn't
wasn't right.
But you never thought of getting
O.F.:
a divorce,
never thought of getting married again
Mrs. Meir, you
when he
died?
Such an idea never entered my head, never!

I've always gone on thinking of myself as married to him! After
the separation we still saw each other. Sometimes he came to
Maybe you haven't understood one
see me in my office.
Oh,
G.M.:
no! Never!
important thing: even though we were so different and incapable of living together, there was always love between us.
was
a great love;
died.
And
from the day we met
till
the day he
is
it
How
true you're very modest?
should
say
it
very puritanical, very concerned with moralit\'?
G.M.: Look, as
said before,
never, never has a
my
Do
lasted
a love like that can't be replaced.
Mrs. Meir,
O.F.:
it
Ours
man
I've
always lived
allowed himself to
among men. And

tell a dirty
joke in
presence, to say anything disrespectful or proposition me.
you know why? Because I've always said that if I'm given a
that water must be clean. Otherwise I don't
glass of water,
drink
it.
That's the
way
am;
like things to
be clean.
dear
Golda Meir
friend of
There
ful
are
17
mine once said to me, "Golda, don't be so rigid.

no moral or immoral things. There are only beauti-
or ugly things."
suppose he was
What's more,
right.
suppose that the same thing can be beautiful and ugly. Because
They
G.M.:
don't
Maybe
I,
say too that you're very hard, inflexible
way: love
this
is
ugly.
hard? No. There are a few points, in politics, on which
me
they might think
and
it
However
to others ugly.
.
always beautiful, but the act of love with a prostitute
is
O.F.:
some it looks beautiful and

know how to explain.
to
...
comes
to Israel
believe in Israel,
most
hard. I'm the
mean
word
when
inflexi-
in private life,
it's
compromise
to
don't yield
period. Yes, in that sense the
human problems
with
people,
me. But otherwise,
ble applies to
one
hard. In fact, I'm not
say so adamantly.
foolish
to
with
say
I'm
sensitive creature that you'll ever meet.
It's
no accident that many accuse me of making political decisions

on the basis of my feelings instead of my brain. Well, what if I
do?
don't see anything bad in that, quite the contrary. I've
always
felt
sorry for people
their emotions,
who
are afraid of their feelings, of
and who hide what they
wholeheartedly. Because anyone
who
and can't cry
feel
can't cry wholeheartedly
can't laugh wholeheartedly either.

O.F.
G.M.:
Do you sometimes really cry?

Do
And how! And yet if you
I!
were
Golda, have you had more laughter or

answer, "I think
from
my
such
fine people,
people
laughed more than
I've
I've
especially in the
moved within
I'd really
CM.:
life?" I'd
cried." Aside
years I've spent in Israel.
fift\'
I've
a circle of intellectual giants; I've always
be ungrateful
if
didn't
else
can you ask of
know how
for-
to laugh.
woman who's considered the symbol of Israel.

Some symbol! Are you maybe pulling my leg?
You didn't know the great men who were really the symbol of
Israel, the men who founded Israel and by whom
was influNot bad
O.F.:
your
I've
my life has been so lucky. I've known

had the friendship of such interesting
been appreciated and loved. And what

tune?
me, "Tell me,
family dramas,
always
to ask
tears in
I,
for a
symbol?!
it
enced. Ben-Gurion
you on
myself
my
in the
is
the only
one of them
children and grandchildren that
same
category- as a
and
left,
I've
Ben-Gurion or
swear
to
never put
Katznelson.
Il8
Fm
not crazy!
say that
if
been any
O.F.:
done what
I've
I've
done,
But
that's true.
can't
hadn't done what I've done, Israel would have
different.
Then why do
who can
they say that you're the only one
hold
the country together?
Now
G.M.: Nonsense!
When
tell
I'll
Eshkol died
you something that'll convince you.

conducted a poll to find out
in 1969, they
how much popularity his possible successors had. And you

know how many people came out for me? One percent.
Maybe one and a half percent. All right, there was a crisis in
my
and even
party
but
as foreign minister I'd felt the effects of
one, one and a half percent!
still
it
And
woman
so un-
popular up until three years ago should today be the one holding
the
country
together by
Believe
together?
itself;
me,
country
the
doesn't need a prime minister
it
holds
named
Golda Meir. If the young people were to say, "Enough fighting,

enough war, let's surrender," no Golda Meir could do anything about
the kibbutzim of Beth Shean, they had
If in
it.
"Enough of living under the rockets of the fedayeen,

enough sleeping in shelters, let's go away," no Golda Meir
said,
would have been able
to
do anything about
was by accident that Golda Meir got

Eshkol was dead, someone had
thought
factions
cept.
can ask
that's all.
In fact,
had got out of governmental
my
What's more,
it.
it
lead the country.
to take his place,
might replace him because
and
to
and the party
was acceptable
to all
want
to ac-
didn't even
politics,
was
You
tired.
children and grandchildren.
O.F.: Mrs. Meir, don't try to
tell
me
that you're not aware of your
success!
CM.: Of course
neither
am
am!
don't suffer from delusions of grandeur, but
troubled by an inferiority complex.
When
deny
being a symbol and holding the country together, I'm not saying I'm a failure!
may
not always have been perfect but
don't see that I've failed in
my
career, either as labor minister,
or foreign minister, or party secretary, or head of the govern-
ment. Indeed
must admit
that, in
my
opinion,
women
can
Oh, Lord,
maybe I would have functioned just as well if I'd been a man.
... I don't know, I can't prove it, I've never been a man.
be good government leaders, good heads of
state.
Golda Meir
.
But
119
women, more than men,
think that
pacity that helps in doing this job.
possess a ca-
that of going right to the
It's
Women
essence of things, of taking the bull by the horns.
more
more
practical,
in mystifications like
They
realistic.
are
don't dissipate themselves
men, who always beat around
the bush
trying to get to the heart of the matter.
And
O.F.:
you sometimes speak
yet
though you didn't
as
Do you like yourself, Mrs. Meir?

What person with any sense likes himself?
like
your-
self.
G.M.:
well to like myself.
know
like to be.
And
to give
you who
like:
my
all
you an idea what
daughter. Sarah
When
When she
so intellectually honest!
goes
the way.
all
\yithout
what
I'd
I'd like to be, I'll tell
so good, so intelligent,
is
thinks something,
she says
it
gives in to others, to
same
really can't say the
know myself too
she believes in something, she
mincing words. And she never
the majority.
too well that I'm not
When
for myself.
you're doing the job I'm doing, you always have to stoop to
compromises, you can never

percent faithful
to
compromise, and
stoop enough.
your
Of
ideas.
can't say
And
yourself remain one hundred
let
course, there's a limit to
always stoop to them. However,
why
That's another reason
that's bad.
can't wait to retire.
you
O.F.: Will
G.M.:
give
five.
really retire?
you
my
May
word. Listen, in
I'm old. I'm exhausted.
heart functions, but
My
can't go
next year
health
on with
you only knew how many times
is
I'll
this
madness
my
forever. If
To
say to myself:
be seventy-
essentially good,
hell with
done my share, now

let the others do theirs, enough, enough, enough! There are
days when I'd like to pack up and leave without telling anyeverything, to hell with everybody, I've
one.
it's
If I've
stayed this long,
out of duty and nothing
out the window! Yes,

they'd better believe
1973.
In
October of
many
it,
I'll
if
for the
else.
moment
I'm
still
here,
can't just throw everything
don't believe that
leave. Well,
I'll
even give you the
'73 there'll be elections.
date:
Once
October
they're
over, good-by!
O.F.:
don't believe
it.
And everyone
because you aren't able
to
says you'll
sit still
change your mind
and do nothing.
G.M.: Look, there's another thing that people don't
know about me.
120
By nature, I'm
who
has to
fill
a lazy woman. I'm not one of those people

up every minute or else get sick.
like to be
I
with nothing to do, even just sitting in an armchair, or wasting
time with
little
things
cooking a meal
enjoy. Cleaning the house, ironing,
I'm an excellent cook,
an excellent
My
mother used to say, "But why do you want

study? You're such a good housewife!" And then I like
housewife.
sleep.
Oh,
about
this
like to
go
it
so
and that
like
to hell
to the theater.
bodyguard underfoot.
to see a film, they
me? This
with
to
do what
with
my
that
lists
much!
How
did
it
It's
talk,
political talk!
go to the movies, without
happen
my
whenever I want
army reserves along
that
Israeli
been years that
to sleep, to talk
to
be with people, to talk
with serious
like to
even send the
a life?
is
like,
like to
to
about
haven't been able
trivial things,
to
sit
hands folded. I'm always tied to this piece of paper

what I have to do, what I have to say, half hour by
half hour.
Ah! And then

children to say,
my
there's
family.
and neglected them, and
later
children.
And
grand-
badly with her children
she behaved badly with us and
neglected us." I'm a grandmother.

years to live.
my
don't want
"Grandma behaved
I
don't have
many more
intend to spend those years with
also intend to spend
my
them with my books.
grandI
have
morning when I go to bed, I take one of them in my hand and try

pff!
fall asleep and the
to read it, but after two minutes
I
book drops. Finally I want to go to Sarah's kibbutz when I
like. For a week, a month, not rush there Friday evening to
rush back on Saturday evening. I should be the master of the
clock, not the clock the master of me.
O.F.: So you're not afraid of old age.
G.M.: No, it's never frightened me. When I know I can change
things, I become as active as a cyclone. And almost always I
succeed in changing them. But when I know I can't do anyshelves full of books that I've never read. At two in the
thing,
resign myself.
an airplane
in
work, eh, not for fun!

took
off,
that
I'll
never forget the
first
time
flew in
1929, from Los Angeles to Seattle. For
thought:
calmed down
It
How
was
a little
crazy!
Why
plane and the

did
what good would
it
do
do
it?
But
my
moment
it
right after
to get frightened?
Golda Meir
Another time
New
flew from
we
of mine, and
him, "Stop
My
do?"
Once
my
might
Chicago with
The
a friend
plane was
crying,
So
what good does
an airplane flying
nothing you can do.
in a
You
it
storm.
can't stop a
you can't stop time. So you

wisdom.
wisdom that sometimes makes you severe with young
as well take
this
Is it
to
friend cried like a baby.
you
are
like
is
there's
it,
you can't stop
plane,
O.F.:
why
it,
dear, old age
you're in
York
got caught in an awful storm.
bouncing and swaying, and

said to
121
a storm,
easy, with
it
people?
G.M.: Listen, you'd have to be crazy not to realize that the younger
way
generations think differently and that that's the

be.
would
It
be dreary
really
if
it
should
every generation was a copy of
the previous one; the world wouldn't go forward any more.
accept the fact with joy that young people are different from
What
me.
condemn
in
"Everything you've done

beginning." Well,
them is their presumption in saying,

is wrong so we'll redo it all from the
they were to do
if
wouldn't even mind, but
many
in
it
all
over again better,
cases they're
no
and can even be worse. The calendar
us old people
better than
isn't
the
know selfish and reactionary

evil!
young people and generous and progressive old ones. And
condemn in young people: their
then there's another thing
mania for copying whatever comes from outside. Their fashions irritate me. Why that music that isn't music and is only
standard for good and
good
to gi\e
skirts?
you
an imposition,
for
a lack of
some reason
they
all
I've
freedom.
women
that
that long hair, those short
alwass hated them. Fashion
Somebody
in
is
Paris decides
should wear miniskirts, and here
are in miniskirts: long legs, short legs, skinny legs, fat
ugly legs.
legs,
When
Why
headache?
hate fashions, and
they're
men who grow
Never mind as long as they're young.

mad. Have you seen those old
fifH',
really get
bunch
of
little
curls
on the back of
their
necks?
O.F.
The
fact
is,
Mrs. Mcir,
while the one of today
CM.: So
I
see
is
tiiat
.
the one of today. Like
men
tvvent\',
of forty-fi\ e or
thirh' vears
yours was a heroic generation,
fifty
my
children's generation.
When
who've been fighting the war
But vou know what
sav?
for
E\en the
122
young people of today
When
Israel.
and that
diers,
and
that's
among
all
be a soldier here doesn't
to
.
my
feel
could tear them away from their desks,
moment
For the
in a
month
whim
in
my
five
minutes
say to myself, Golda,
they could be at the front. Don't be impatient with
let
them be conceited,
Last week
arrogant. So
long hair.
miniskirts,
was
So
a trip!
them wear
kibbutz in the
at
let
north. In the office they were shocked, they said,
such
go
of Sadat's
lump
get a
training
When
often get impatient with them.
argue with them. But after
them. So
in
least
mean
just
heart bursting.
high-school students and think that a
throat.
At
are a heroic generation.
think that at eighteen they've already been sol-
"To make
why
You're crazy!" But you know
tiring!
my old comrades
Day War he had lost two
went? Because the granddaughter of one of
was getting married. And
in the Six
grandsons.
have you ever
O.F.: Mrs. Meir,
No
G.M.:
pened
anyone.
to kill
to kill.
It's
exactly
I've
never hap-
there's no
making decisions by which you
the same thing. And maybe it's
don't say
difference between killing and
send others
anyone?
killed
learned to shoot, of course, but
I've
as consolation
it
worse.
O.F.: Mrs. Meir,
G.M.:
can
how do you
you
tell
look on death?
my
right away:
know, old age
is
not a sin
only fear
and not
disagreeable things about old age.
and down the

physical
What
not
stairs,
some
get used to
to
to live too long.
is
there are plent)' of
to
be able to run up
a joy
Not
be able to jump.
things without difficulty.
and
troubles,
physical
You
It's
troubles
And
just a
aren't
yet
you
matter of
degrading.
become
known people who died too soon,
and that hurt me. I've known people who died too late, and
that hurt me just as much. Listen, for me, to witness the
senile.
is
degrading
Senility
is
to lose
happen
only fear
Jerusalem,
to
is
me.
want
is
an
insult.
to die with
to live too long.
November 1972
lucidity, to
I've
decay of a fine intelligence

to
your mental
don't want that insult
my mind
clear. Yes,
my
Yasir Arafat
When
he arrived, on the dot
moment
for the
appointment,
uncertain, telHng myself no,
too young, too innocuous. At least at
him
in
that
showed
emanates from
face.
and
The only
rifle
of one
who
air
much,
that
a leader to assail
striking thing
is
feet.
Too
you
like a
his
noticed nothing
to
perfume or
a slap in the
all
Arabs, and the
shoulder with the free-and-easy
never separated from
it.
Certainly he loved
it
very
have wrapped the grip with adhesive tape the
say.
I'd
glance,
mustaches worn by almost
color of a green lizard:

five feet three,
first
for a
He seemed
about him was his mustache, thick
he wore on
that
rifle,
remained
couldn't be he.
authority, or that mysterious fluid that always
identical with the
automatic
it
somehow amusing. He was

And even his hands were
short in height,
small, even his
small, you thought, to sustain his fat legs and his massive
huge hips and swollen, obese stomach.

a small head, the face framed by a kassiah,
and only by observing this face were you convinced that yes, it was
trunk, with
All this
its
was topped by
he, Yasir Arafat, the
whom
man
about
ver\'
strange,
among
most famous
guerrilla in the
Middle
East, the
people talked so much, to the point of tedium.
unmistakable face that you would have recognized
thousand
in the dark.
1 he face of an actor. Not only for
now distinguished him like the eycpatch of

enemy Moshe Dasan, but for his mask, which
the dark glasses that by

his
implacable
resembles no one and recalls the profile of a bird of prey or an

123
124
angry ram. In
thing
in
he has almost no cheeks or forehead. Every-
fact,
summed up
is
in a large
mouth with
and
red
fleshy lips, then
an aggressive nose, and two eyes that though screened by
lenses hypnotize you: large, shining,
With
those eyes he was
Then in
English, "Good
now
mindedly.
a soft,
in
evening,
and bulging.
Two
glass
ink spots.
looking at me, courteously and absent-
murmured
almost affectionate voice, he

I'll
be with you in two minutes." His
voice had a kind of funny whistle in
it.
And something
feminine.
Those who had met him by day, when the Jordanian headquarters of Al Fatah was thronged with guerrillas and other people,
swore they had seen around him a stirring excitement, the same as
he aroused every time he appeared
was
and
at night,
at that
in public.
But
my
appointment
hour, ten o'clock, there was almost no
one. This helped to deprive his arrival of any dramatic atmosphere.
you would have concluded that the man

was important only because he was accompanied by a bodyguard.
But what a bodyguard! The most gorgeous piece of male flesh I had
Not knowing
his identity',
who
ever seen. Tall, slender, elegant: the type
though they were black
coveralls as
Western
features of a
with blue eyes,
lady-killer.
tie
and
wears camouflage
tails,
with the chiseled
Perhaps because he was blond and
had the spontaneous thought that the handsome
even a German. And perhaps because

him along with such tender pride,
had the still
more spontaneous thought that he was something more than a
bodyguard was
a Westerner,
Arafat brought
bodyguard.
very loving friend,
let's say.
In addition to
him,
who
soon turned on his heel and disappeared, there was an ugly individual in civilian clothes
"Touch my chief and
who
I'll
gave you dirty looks as though to
drill
you
full
say:
of holes." Finally there was
who was to act as interpreter, and Abu George, who was

down questions and answers so that they could later be
the escort
to write
my
checked with
These
last
view. In the
text.
two followed us into the room chosen
room
for the inter-
there were a few chairs and a desk.
vocative, exhibitionist gesture, Arafat put his automatic
desk and sat

of a wolf
down
On
With
a pro-
rifle
on the
with a smile of white teeth, pointed as the teeth
his windbreaker, of gray-green cloth, a
badge stood
out with two Vietnam Marines and the inscription "Black Panthers
against
American Fascism."
from California
who
It
had been given
called themselves
to
him by two
kids
American Marxists and had
Yasir Arafat
come
125
him the alhance of Rap Brown,

make money. told him so. He was
struck by my judgment but not offended. The atmosphere was
relaxed, cordial, but unpromising.
knew that an interview with
Arafat is never good for obtaining memorable responses. And even
with the pretext of offering
but in reahty to do a fihn and
less for getting
any information out of him.
The most famous man
in the Palestinian resistance
most mysterious; the curtain of silence surrounding

is
so thick as to
make you wonder
Even
to obtain
also the
doesn't constitute a trick to
if it
increase his publicit)', a piece of coquetry to

cious.
is
his private life
an interview with him
make him more prevery difficult. With
is
is always traveling, now to Cairo and now to

now to Lebanon and now to Saudi Arabia, now to Moscow
and now to Damascus, they keep you waiting for days, for weeks,
the excuse that he
Rabat,
and
if
then they give
to you,
it
it
is
with the air of presenting you
with a special privilege or an exclusive right of which you're not

worthy.
meantime, you tr\', of course, to gather information on

on his past. But wherever you turn, you find an em-
In the
his character,
barrassed silence,
only partly
justified
maintains the greatest secrecy about
you with
its
by the
fact that
leaders
and never supplies
Al Fatah
their biographies. Under-the-table confidences will whis-
per that he's not a communist, that he never would be even
Tse-tung himself were personally

dier, they repeat, a patriot,
Indiscretions by
now
Jerusalem, sometime
and
his
fortune
youth spent
will
if
Mao
a sol-
confirm that he was born
in the late twenties, that his
in easy
is
and not an ideologue.
widespread
Such
in
family was noble
circumstances: his father
largely unconfiscatcd.
still
him; he
to indoctrinate
owned an
old
which took
had been imposed by
confiscation,
place over the course of a century and a half,
the Egyptians on certain land estates and on certain property in the
center of Cairo.
And then? Lx^t's sec.

Then
who were giving birth
.
fought against the Jews
in
1947 Yasir had
to
Israel
and had
enrolled in Cairo University to study engineering. In those years he
had
also founded the Palestinian Student Association, the same

from which the nucleus of Al Fatah was to emerge. Having ob-
tained his degree,
founded
had joined
he had gone
newspaper
a
in
to
work
in
Kuwait; here he had
support of the nationalist struggle, and he
group called the Muslim Brothers. In 1955 he had
120
gone back
to
Egypt
ize in explosives; in
an
to take
officers' training
course and special-
1963 he had helped especially
Fatah and assumed the
name
Builds, Father Builder.
In
of
of Al
in the birth
Abu Ammar. That
is,
Who
He
1967 he had been elected president of
PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, a movement

now includes the members of Al Fatah, of the Popular Front,
the
that
of Al Saiqa, and so forth; only recently he had been chosen as the
spokesman of Al Fatah, its messenger.

At this point, if you asked why, they spread their arms and answered, ''Well, someone has to do that too, one person or another,
it
make any
doesn't
difference."
Of
his daily
life
they told you
nothing, except for the detail that he didn't even have a house.
it
was
slept
When
true.
he wasn't staying with
his brother in
on the bases or v/herever he happened to be. It was also

was not married. There were no known women in his
that he
and despite the gossip of

writer
a platonic flirtation
who had embraced
the Arab cause,
could do without them: as

the
it
And
Amman,
he
true
life,
with a Jewish
woman
seemed
that he
really
had suspected seeing him
arrive with
handsome bodyguard.
You
my
see,
suspicion
is
that,
except for whatever details might
serve to correct any inexactness, there

Arafat.
When
he conceals
it,
man
is
nothing more
has a tumultuous past, you
since his past
is
written
on
feel
to say
about
even
when
it
his face, in his eyes.
But
on Arafat's face you find only that strange mask placed there by
Mother Nature, not by any experience for which he has paid.
There is something unsatisfactory about him, something unrealized. Furthermore, if you stop to think about it, you realize that
his fame burst out more through the press than through his exploits. Even worse, it was pulled out of the shadows by Western
journalists
skillful in
and particularly by the Americans, who are always

inventing personalities or building
them
so
up. Just think of
what they did with the bonzes in Vietnam, and with that nobody
called the venerable Tri Quang. Of course, Arafat cannot be compared to Tri Quang. He is truly a creator of the Palestinian resistance, or one of its creators, and a strategist. Or one of its strategists. But this doesn't mean, all the less did it mean when I met
him, that he was the leader of the Palestinians in war. (The real
brains of the movement, at the time, was Farolik EI Kaddoumi,
Yasir Arafat
Abu
called
Lotuf.)
And,
any case, among
in
Or should
not a
is
one
say the
man bom
difficult to feel
to
sympathy
liked.
for
the Palestinians
impressed
liked
be
all
me least of all.
least of all? One thing is certain:
He is a man born to irritate. It is
who
met, Arafat remains the one
he
127
him.
First of all for the silent refusal
anyone attempting a human approach: his cordiality is superficial, his politeness (when it exists) is formal, and a
trifle is enough to make him hostile, cold, and arrogant. He warms
that he opposes to
up only when he
gets angry.
loud one, his eyes
become
he would
Then,
plies.
In
like to tear
to pieces
opinion,
view but the answers.
it
charm
all his
enemies.
characterizes
his re-
all
not the questions that count in an inter-
is
If a
becomes
his soft voice
along with
of originality and
a lack
my
you
And then
pools of hatred, and he looks as though
him
person has talent, you can ask
or her
the most banal thing in the world: he or she will always find the
way
to
cre,
you can put the most acute questions in the world to him or
he or she always answer you as a mediocrity. If then you apply
her:
such
answer you
law
brilliantly or profoundly.
man
to a
person
struggling between calculation
watch out. After listening

handed. With Arafat
If a
to
really
him, you're
likely to
found myself
left
medio-
is
and passions,
end up empty-
empty-handed.
He
almost always reacted with indirect or evasive discourses, turns of

phrase that contained nothing beyond his rhetorical intransigence,
persuading me.
his constant fear of not
He had no
wish
the point of view of others.
counter between an Arab
who no
latter
Nor
who
longer believes in
Also because the
even
to consider,
it
is it
to
believes in the
is
game,
as part of a dialectical
enough
an immensely
observe
war and
difficult
how
a
the en-
European
encounter.
remains imbued with her Christianity, with
her hatred for hatred, and the other instead remains muffled inside
his
law of an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, which
is
the
epitome of any mistaken pride. But there comes a point at which

such pride fails, and it is there where Yasir Arafat invokes the understanding of others or
by doubts behind his

to
admit
its
fundamental
therefore risk one's

for
insists
own
him. Facu
own
to this
on dragging anyone who
barricade.
justice,
physical
To
is
disturbed
be interested in his cause,
to criticize
and moral
its
weak
safety, are
points,
and
not enough
he reacts with the arrogance that
men-
128
most unjustified haughtiness, and
tioned, the
And
tion to pick a quarrel.
medi-
of insufficient intelHgence?
ocrity,
The
interview lasted ninety minutes, a great part of which was
me
wasted in translating the answers that he gave

sisted
that absurd inchna-
aren't these the characteristics of
on
this
himself
so
each of those ninety minutes

level as well as
on the
in Arabic.
ponder each word,
as to
me
left
dissatisfied
But
intellectual or political.
He inAnd
human
suppose.
on the
was amused
to
discover that he doesn't wear dark glasses in the evening because he
needs them
to see.
He
wears them to be noticed. In
by day or night, he sees very well.

Hasn't he even
made
around
whole Palestinian
UN
fact,
whether
blinkers, but very well.
a career in recent years? Hasn't
elected head of the

travel
With
resistance
he got himself
and doesn't he
chief of state? As such, doesn't he go to the
like a
where he shouts, "An
olive
branch
in
one hand and
gun
in
the other hand," thus disturbing the best friends of the Palestinian
cause?
Nobody could
ever accuse
me
of denying the rights of the
Palestinians. I'm convinced that they will
win. Yet
ple.
is
it
And
bitter to see their rights
here
is
my
win because they must
advanced by inadequate peo-
on
personal judgment
history will inevitably reassess, like Kissinger,
Arafat:
and
someone
that
restore to his real
proportions.
ORIANA FALLACI: Abu Ammar, people talk of you

most nothing is known about you and
.
YASIR ARAFAT:
The only
Palestinian fighter.
of
my
thing to say about

I
became one
taken place in
much
but
al-
is
in 1947,
family. Yes, that was the year
awakened and
me
so
that I'm a
humble
along with the
rest
when my conscience was
understood what a barbarous invasion had
my
country. There had never been one like
it
in the history of the world.
O.F.:
How
old were you,
Abu Ammar?
ask because there's
some
controversy about your age.

Y.A.:
O.F.:
Y.A.:
No
personal questions.
Abu Ammar, I'm only asking how

woman. You can tell me.
I
said,
no personal
questions.
old you are. You're not a
Yasir Arafat
O.F.:
Abu Ammar,
129
you don't even want
if
your age, why do
to tell
you always expose yourself to the attention of the world and
let
the world look on you as the head of the Palestinian resis-
tance?
Y.A.:
But I'm not the head of

it.
member
I'm just a
and
it!
who
be precise the one
to
spokesman. That
don't want to be! Really,
has been ordered to be the
what others decide.
to report
is
swear
of the Central Committee, one of many,
a great
It's
consider
me
the head
the Palestinian
resistance doesn't have a head.
We
try in fact to
apply the con-
misunderstanding
to
cept of collective leadership and obviously the matter presents
we
but
difficulties,
on
insist
it
we
since
believe
it's
indispens-
able not to entrust the responsibility and prestige to

alone.
It's
masses
modern concept and helps not
who
are fighting, to
should die, your
our brothers
curiosit}' will
erything about me. Until that

O.F.:
who
be exhausted
moment,
wouldn't say your comrades could afford to
No. Probably instead

Ah,
alive.
yes,
my
an incentive. Let
of dying
I'd
me
it
you
go around
you
let
ev-
useful dead than
help the cause, as
many
If
probabilities
I
die,
it's
not
world to repre-
in the
don't care about
Abu
die,
say they think
else will direct the battles.

I
If
know
my
safety as
I'm
much
think.
understand.
Israel
have
you'll
I'd
tonight, tomorrow.
else will
someone
more than ready to die.
I
much more
much to
even add that
could happen
someone
sent Al Fatah,
as
be
death would do
a tragedy
O.F.:
to the
are dying.
no.
Ammar. And, to judge by your bodyguard,

you're much more useful if you stay alive.
Y.A.:
one man
do wrong
to
once
On
in a
the other hand, you cross the lines into
while yourself, don't you,
Abu Ammar? The
convinced that you've entered Israel twice, and just

escaped being ambushed. And they add that anyone who sucIsraelis are
ceeds in doing this must be very clever.

Y.A.:
What you
my home
call Israel
is
with e\ery
there, but
much more
tinually,
go when
fairly difficult
less difficult
their
my home. So
right to
go
to
was not
my home.
often than only hvice.

like.
Of
it
but
in
Yes, I've been

I
go there con-
course, to exercise this right
machine guns
than they think;
in Israel
arc always rcad\
But
is
it's
depends on circumstances, on
130
You have
the points chosen.
about
right
that.
be shrewd about
to
no accident
It's
that
we
they're
it,
call these trips "trips
of the fox." But you can go ahead and inform them that our
make
boys, the fedayeen,
know
they'll
we
Gaza
Strip
there.
The Gaza
receive
Y.A.:
to
We
move about
us,
done
there
as the
it,
even carry weapons
fighters don't receive their
Abu Ammar, how
We
and learn
land,
not always to
to crossing the lines so
get as far, because I've
and the Sinai Desert.
them from
be able to
And
these trips daily.
accustom them
own
their
with ease. Often
O.F.:
We
enemy.
attack the
arms by sea
they
from here.
long will
all this
How
go on?
long will you
resist?
don't even go in for such calculations. We're only at the
beginning of
this war.
We're only now beginning
to prepare
ourselves for what will be a long, a very long, war. Certainly a
war destined
be prolonged for generations. Nor are
to
generation to
first
fight.
The world
doesn't
know
we
the
or forgets that
in the
1920s our fathers were already fighting the Zionist in-
vader.
They were weak
adversaries
then, because too
much
alone against
too strong and were supported by the En-
by the Americans, by the imperialists of the earth. But
glish,
we
who were
are strong
since January 1965, that
is
since the day that
Al Fatah was born, we're a very dangerous adversary for Israel.
The fedayeen
attacks
their
numbers
improving
how
to resist
long the
their
guerrilla
tremendous
are increasing at a
long we'll be able
should ask
they're stepping
are acquiring experience,
and
that's the
Israelis will
You
rate.
ask
up
their
how
wrong question. You
be able to
never stop until we've returned to our
tactics;
resist.
home and
For
we'll
destroyed
The unit>' of the Arab world will make this possible.

Abu Ammar, you always invoke the unity of the Arab world.
But you know very well that not all the Arab states are ready to
Israel.
O.F.:
go
to
war
for Palestine
peaceful agreement
Even Nasser
is
said so. If
and
that,
possible,
for those already at war,
and can even be expected.
such an agreement should take place,
as Russia too expects, what will you do?
Y.A.:
We
won't accept
Israel
it.
Never!
We
by ourselves until we
will
continue
to
get Palestine back.
make war on
The end of
Yasir Arafat
Israel
131
and
the goal of our struggle,
is
compromise
nor
whether our friends

the principles that
Al Fatah.
First:
The
mediation.
like
allows for neither
it
issues
of
this
struggle,
or not, will always remain fixed by
it
we enumerated
1965 with the creation of
in
revolutionary violence
the only system for
is
liberating the land of our fathers; second: the purpose of this
violence
to liquidate
is
Zionism
and military forms, and
in all
to drive
it
economic,
political,
its
out of Palestine forever;
our revolutionary action must be independent of any
third:
control by party or state; fourth: this action will be of long du-
We
ration.
know
the intentions of certain Arab leaders: to
resolve the conflict with a peaceful
happens, we will oppose

O.F.
Conclusion: you don't
hoping
Y.A.:
No!
this
at all
want the peace
that everyone
is
for.
We
means
call
When
agreement.
it.
We
don't want peace.
want war,
victory.
Peace
peace
is
peace for
and the
Israel
We
and shame.
injustice
imperialists.
for us
What you
the destruction of Israel and nothing else.
For us
it
Decades
will fight until victory.
is
if
necessary, generations.
O.F.: Let's be practical,
Abu Animar. Almost
are in Jordan, others are in
all
the fedayeen bases
Lebanon. Lebanon has
little
wish
and Jordan would very much like to get out of

suppose that these two countries, having decided on a
to fight a war,
it.
Let's
peaceful agreement, decide to prevent your attacks on
Israel.
In other words, they prevent the guerrillas from being guerrillas.
It's
already happened and will happen again. In the face
what do you do?

and Lebanon?
of
Y.A.:
this,
We
can't fight
state to
with
Israel;
promise.
with
on the
decide what
us.
ing Israel
it's
our
Among
it
Do you
basis of "ifs."
right to
want
the right of any Arab
to return
the Arab states,
a risk that
It's
war on Jordan
wants, including a peaceful agreement
Others not. But the

is
also declare
risk
some
home
without com-
are unconditionally
of remaining alone in fight-
we've foreseen.
It's
enough to think of
we have been so
the insults they hurled at us in the beginning;
maltreated that by
ment.
Our
now we
verv formation,
don't pay any attention to maltreatI
mean,
is
a miracle.
1 he candle
132
was lighted
that
now we
are
1965 burned
in
many
candles, and
And beyond
nation.
But
the whole Arab
the Arab nation.
O.F.: That's a very poetic
the answer to what
in the blackest darkness.
we illuminate
and very diplomatic answer, but

asked you,
Abu Ammar.
it's
not
asked you:
If
Jordan really doesn't want you any more, do you declare war
on Jordan?
Y.A.: I'm a soldier
secrets
and
a military leader.
As such
must keep
my
won't be the one to reveal our future battlefields
to
would court-martial me. So draw your

own conclusions from what I said before. I told you we'll continue our march for the liberation of Palestine to the end,
whether the countries in which we find ourselves like it or not.
Even now we are in Palestine.
O.F.: We're in Jordan, Abu Ammar. And I ask you: But what does
Palestine mean? Even Palestine's national identity has been
you.
If
did, Al Fatah
with time, and
lost
lost.
its
geographical borders have also been
The Turks were
here, before the British Mandate and

So what are the geographical borders of Palestine?
don't bring up the question of borders. We don't speak of
Israel.
Y.A.:
We
borders in our constitution because those
were the Western colonialists
From an Arab
estine
is
is
a small dot in the great Arabic ocean.

it
is
a nation extending
the democratic Palestinian
But when you
set
up borders
after the
Turks.
is
to free
And our
nation
from the Atlantic
Red Sea and beyond. What we want, ever
trophe exploded in 1947,
O.F.:
who
invaded us
point of view, one doesn't speak of borders; Pal-
the Arab one,
the
who
to
since the catas-
our land and reconstruct
state.
talk of a state,
you have
to say too
within what
is formed or will be formed! Abu

you again: what are the geographical borders of
geographical limits this state
Ammar,
ask
Palestine?
Y.A.
As an indication, we may decide that the borders of Palestine

Mandate. If
are the ones established at the time of the British
we
take the
Anglo-French agreement of 1918, Palestine means

Naqurah in the north to Aqaba in
the territory that runs from
the south, and then from the Mediterranean coast that in-
cludes the
Desert.
Gaza
Strip to
the Jordan
River and the Negev
Yasir Arafat
O.F.:
But
see.
this also includes a
part of Jordan,
mean
133
good piece of land that today
is
the whole region west of the Jordan.
Cisjordania.
But
Y.A.: Yes.
is
O.F.
repeat that borders have
important, that's
no importance. Arab unity
all.
Borders have importance

of a country that already
if
they touch or overlap the territory
exists, like
Jordan.
What you call Cisjordania is Palestine.

O.F.: Abu Ammar, how is it possible to talk of Arab unity if from
now on such problems come up with certain Arab countries?
Y.A.:
Not only
There
is
that,
but even you Palestinians are not
even a great division
in
agreement.
between you of Al Fatah and the
other movements. For example, with the Popular Front.

Y.A.: Ever)' revolution has
its
private problems. In the Algerian rev-
more than one movement, and for all I

know, even in Europe during the resistance to the Nazis. In
Vietnam itself there exist several movements; the Vietcong are
simply the overwhelming majority, like we of Al Fatah. But we
olution there was also
of Al Fatah include ninety-seven percent of the fighters and
who conduct the struggle inside the occupied terwas no accident that Moshe Dayan, when he decided
are the ones

ritory'.
It
to destroy the village
of El Heul and mined 218 houses as a
"We
must make it clear who controls

He mentioned Al Fatah, not the
Popular Front. The Popular Front ... In February 1969 the
Popular Front split into five parts, and four of them have al-
punitive measure, said,

this village,
we
or Al Fatah."
ready joined Al Fatah. Therefore we're slowly being united.
And
George Habash, the leader of the Popular Front, is not

with us today, he soon will be. We've already asked him to
join us; there's basically no difference in objectives between us
if
and the Popular Front.
The Popular P>ont is communist. You say that you're not set
up that way.
Y.A.: Ihere are fighters among us representing all ideas; sou must
have met them. Therefore among us there is also room for the
Popular Front. Only certain methods of struggle distinguish us
O.F.:
from the Popular Front.

hijacked an airplane,
caused shooting
in
In
fîct
wc
of Al Fatah ha\c never
and wc ha\c nc\er planted bombs or
other countries.
We
prefer to
conduct
134
purely military struggle. That doesn't mean, however, that

too don't have recourse to sabotage
you
O.F.:
For instance,
call Israel.
bombs
Tel Aviv,
in
That involves
it's
we
inside the Palestine that
almost always we
who
set off
in Jerusalem, in Eilat.
civilians,
however.
not a purely military
It's
struggle.
Y.A.:
Because, civilians or military, they're
It is!
wanting
to destroy
have been arrested
carr>'
them
helping our commandos, eight thou-
tortures
have been
our
that
without
destroyed,
undergo
brothers
out certain operations,
that we're capable of keeping
methods. This inevitably

first
equally guilty of
their
in
and napalm bombings of the unarmed population.
prisons,
We
for
houses of Palestinians
sand
counting the
all
our people. Sixteen thousand Palestinians
sabotage,
called
them
show
but civilians are the
hits civilians,
accomplices of the gang that rules
Israel.
Because
approve of the methods of the gang
civilians don't
to
check by the same
in
in
the
if
power,
We
know very well that many don't

who lived in Palestine before the
and even some of those who immigrated
they have only to show
it.
approve. Those, for example,
Jewish immigration,
with the precise intention of robbing us of our land. Because

they
came here
innocently, with the hope of forgetting their
ancient sufferings.
They had been promised
Paradise, here
on
Too late they discovered that instead it was hell. Do you know how many of
them now want to escape from Israel? You should see the emiearth,
and they came
over Paradise.
to take
gration applications that pile
up
Canadian embassy
at the
in
Tel Aviv, or the United States embassy. Thousands.

O.F.
Abu Ammar, you never answer me directly. But this time you
so. What do you think of Moshe Dayan?
must do
Y.A.: That's a very
embarrassing question.
hope
one day
How
whether
he's really a brilliant leader or
Abu Ammur,
respect
is
something
he'll
he's
can
answer? Let's
be tried as a war criminal,
brilliant leader
O.F.:
that
say this:
whether the
title
of
bestowed on himself.
seem to have read somewhere that the Israelis

you more than you respect them. Question: Are you
1
capable of respecting your enemies?

Y.A.:
As
fighters,
must admit
and even
that
as strategists
some of
their
war
sometimes
yes.
tactics are intelligent
One
and
Yasir Arafat
can be respected. But
as
135
them. People often
talk
because they always
no,
persons,
behave Hke barbarians; there's never
drop of humanity
of their victories;
about their victory of 1967 and the one
1956 shouldn't even be called
queued up
after the British
have
my own
in 1956.
in
ideas
The one
in
a victory; that year they
only
And
they
and French
aggressors.
won
with the help of the Americans. As for their 1967 victory,
they
owe
ish
to the
it
help of the Americans.
Money comes
and uncontrolled donations from the Americans
And
money, they
besides
also get lavish
shipments of the most
The
powerful weapons, the most advanced technology.

the
comes from outside
possess
Israelis
wonders that they have achieved

re-examined with
much
is
and
this
story
is
not:
We
know
you don't
best
of the
our country ought
a greater sense of reality.
what the wealth of Palestine

than just so
in
in lav-
to Israel.
to
be
very well
get
more
out of our land; you don't create gardens
out of the desert. Therefore the major part of what they possess
comes from
outside.
imperialists supply
And from
the technology with
which the
them.
Abu Ammar. They've put and are putting

use. And as soldiers, they come off well.
Y.A.: They have never won by their positive aspects; they've always
won through the negative aspects of the Arabs.
O.F.: That too is part of the game of war, Abu Ammar. Besides,
they've also won because they're brave soldiers.
O.F.
Let's be honest,
technology
Y.A.:
to
good
No! No! No! No, they're

to face, they're not
even
not! In
soldiers.
hand-to-hand combat, face

They're too afraid of dying,
show no courage. That's what happened in the battle of

Karameh and that's what happened the other day in the battle
of El Safir. Crossing the lines, they came down on Wadi Fifa
with forty tanks, on Wadi Abata with ten tanks, on Khirbet el
Disseh with ten tanks and twenty jeeps with 106-caliber machine guns. They preceded the advance with a heavy artillery
bombardment and after ten hours sent in their planes, which
bombed the whole area indiscriminately, and then helicopters
they
to fire missiles against
Their objective was

never reached
them back
it;
our positions.
to reach the valley of El
after
Nmeiri. They
twenty-five-hour battle,
across the lines.
Do
we drove
you know why? Because we

136
We
used more courage than they did.

attacked
them
in the rear
with our
face to face, without fear of dying.
with the Israehs. They're good
surrounded them, we
rifles,
It's
with our bazookas
always the same story
at attacking
with planes because
know we have no planes, with tanks because they know

we have no tanks, but when they run into face-to-face resistance, they don't risk any more. They run away. And what
they
is a soldier who takes no risks, who runs away?

Abu Ammar, what do you say of the operations carried out by
their commandos? For example, when their commandos go to
Egypt to dismantle a radar station and carry it away? You need
good
O.F.:
a
Y.A.:
little
courage for something
No, you
don't.
easy objectives.
like that.
Because they always look
Those
for very
are their tactics, which,
weak, very
repeat, are
always intelligent but never courageous in that they consist in
employing enormous forces

cess they're a
an undertaking of whose suc-
in
hundred percent
They never move
sure.
they're certain that everything will go well,
them by
surprise, they never fully
commit
time they've attacked the fedayeen
have been defeated. Their

O.F.:
Y.A.:
Maybe not by you,

What they're doing
chological war.
in
commandos
and
unless
you take
if
themselves. Every
strength,
the
Israelis
don't get by us.
but they do get by the Egyptians.

in
Egypt
Egypt
is
is
they're trying to demoralize
it
not a military action,

their strongest
still
and undermine
it's
a psy-
enemy, and
it
through
so
a psy-
chological war incited by the Zionist press with the help of the
international press. Their
game
action by exaggerating
Everybody
it.
possess a powerful press agency.
consists in propagandizing an
We
falls for
it
because they
have no press agency, no-
body knows what our commandos are doing, our victories go

unnoticed because we have no wire service to transmit the
news to newspapers that anyway wouldn't publish it. So no
one knows, for example, that on the same day that the Israelis
were stealing the radar station from the Egyptians, we entered
an Israeli base and carried off five large rockets.
O.F.: I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the Egyptians.
Y.A.: There's no difference between Palestinians and Egyptians.
Both are part of the Arab nation.
O.F.: That's a very generous remark on your part, Abu Ammar.
Yasir Arafat
137
Especially considering that your family was actually expropriated by the Egyptians.
Y.A.:
My
family was expropriated by Farouk, not by Nasser.
the Egyptians well because
and
went
know
to the university in Egypt,
fought with the Egyptian army in 1951, 1952, and 1956.
my
They're brave soldiers and

O.F.: Let's get
back
brothers.
Abu Ammar. You say that with

huge losses. How many Israelis do you
to the Israelis,
you they always
suffer
think you've killed up to this date?

Y.A.:
you an exact
can't give
figure,
but the
Israelis
have confessed
war against the fedayeen, a percentage of

men that is higher than that of the Americans in Vietnam in
proportion, of course, to the population of the two countries.
And it's indicative that, after the 1967 war, their traffic deaths
to
having
in the
lost,
increased ten times. In short, after a battle or a skirmish with

us,
it
comes out
that a lot of Israelis have died in automobile
been made by the Israeli newswe know that the Israeli generals
accidents. This observation has
papers themselves, because
never admit to losing
men
going by the American

lost
O.F.:
1247
men between
And do you pay an
at
the front. But
statistics, in
can
the battle of
tell
you
that,
Karameh they
dead and wounded.
equally heavy price?
we don't care if we die. Anyway,

we have had slightly over nine hundred
Y.A.: Losses to us don't count,
from 1965
to today,
dead. But you must also consider the six thousand civilians
dead
in air raids
and our brothers who die
in prison
under
tor-
ture.
O.F.
Nine hundred dead can be many or few, depending on the
number
How many
of combatants.
fedayeen are there
al-
together?
Y.A.:
To
tell
you
that figure,
the Military Council, and
me. But
can
tell
you
would have
I
to ask
permission from
don't think they would give
that at
it
to
Karameh we were only 392
against 15,000 Israelis.

O.F.: Fifteen
Y.A.:
thousand?
No! No! No!
Abu Ammar, maybe you mean
1500.
said 15,000, 15,000! Including, of course, the
employed with the heavy artillery, the tanks, the

and the parachutists. As troops alone,
they had four companies and two brigades. What we say is
soldiers
planes, the helicopters,

138
never believed by you Westerners, you listen to them and
you believe them and
that's all,
and
say
O.F.:
Abu Ammar, you're an unfair man.

And after this interview
ing to you.
what you've
Y.A.:
told
You Europeans
beginning
But
O.F.:
to
is
am
I'll
are always for them.
understand us
your war,
we
yours
here and I'm listen-
report
word
for
word
me.
essentially you're
This
you report what they
that's all,
that's all!
still
it's
Maybe some
of you are
one can sense it.
in the air,
them.
for
Abu Ammar,
not ours.
But even
are only spectators.
And
war of
you can't
in this
as spectators
and you shouldn't be surprised if

We've seen them persecuted, we've persecuted them. We don't want it to happen
ask us to be against the Jews
in
Europe the Jews
are often loved.
again.
Y.A.: Sure,
you have
And you want
pay your debts to them.
to
to
pay them with our blood, with our land, rather than with your
blood, your land. You go on ignoring the fact that we have
nothing against the Jews, we have it against the Israelis. The
Jews will be welcome in the democratic Palestinian state.
We'll offer them the choice of staying in Palestine when the
moment arrives.
Abu Ammar,
O.F.: But,
the Israelis are Jews.
tify
themselves with
self
with the Jews.
Israel,
but
And you
Not
Israel can't
all
Jews can iden-
help identifying
it-
can't ask the Jews of Israel to go
wandering around the world once more and thereby end up
in
extermination camps. That's unreasonable.

Y.A.:
So you want
O.F.
No.
Y.A.:
We
to
send us wandering around the world.
don't want to send anybody.
You
least
of
all.
what we're doing now. And if you're

anxious
to
give
a
homeland
to the Jews, give them yours
so
in
Europe,
in America. Don't presume
you have a lot of land
to give them ours. We've lived on this land for centuries and
But wandering around
centuries;
we won't
is
give
it
up
mitting an error even from a
to
pay your debts. You're com-
human
point of view.
How
is
it
Europeans don't recognize it even while

being such civilized people, so advanced, and perhaps more
advanced than on any other continent? And yet you too have
possible
that the
fought wars of liberation,
just think
of your Risorgimento.
Yasir Arafat
Therefore your error
is
139
on purpose. You
can't claim ignorance
about Palestine because you know Palestine well.
your Crusades, and

not Amazonia.
awaken. But
till
it's
You
sent us
country right under your nose.
believe that
someday your conscience
that day
better that
it's
we
It's
will
don't see each
other.
O.F.:
Is
Abu Ammar,
that the reason,
that
you always wear dark
glasses?
Y.A.:
No.
wear them so
asleep or awake.
my
as not to let people
know whether
I'm
between ourselves, I'm always awake
But,
when I take them off, and I

no personal questions.
O.F.: Only one, Abu Ammar. You aren't married, and there are
said to be no women in your life. Do you want to be like Ho
Chi Minh, or is the idea of living with a woman at your side
behind
Y.A.:
glasses.
sleep very
little.
repugnant
to
said,
you?
Ho Chi Minh.
right
sleep only
had
No,
woman. And now
woman called Palestine.

Amman, March 1972
let's
there's
say that I've never found the
no more time.
I've
married
Hussein of Jordan
The
wounded pride devoid of

him without feeling a need to do
king was the picture of bitterness, of
all illusions.
something
You
for
couldn't look at
him, perhaps whisper
to
Majesty.
Go
they
you, no one will pardon you.
kill
away, save yourself.
you've taken too
Or
many
rather than whisper
and
it
If
you
risks already.
it
to
him, "Give up everything,

stay here, they'll kill you. If
It's
not worth
You're only
in
it.
Majesty;
your
thirties."
him, you would have shouted
wasn't the fear of insulting
the knowledge that he knew.
It
him
it
at
that restrained you.
him,
It
was
was written on that face whose mus-
tache was already sprinkled with gray, whose lines already covered
the
memory
of a remote youth.
than the face of Hussein? His
Have you ever seen
lips are strips
looks as though he's about to cry even
Besides
when he
don't think that he's able to laugh
moments when he
a sadder face
of disheartenment; he
smiles or laughs.
except perhaps
Wherever and however you find him, he has the air of

you can't say that life is a gift of God. He lives it,
whom
certainly not as
an
ascetic or saint.
He
man
yes,
to
and
women, motorcycles,
emotions. He defends it,
likes
racing cars, seaside vacations, and violent

yes,
at rare
plays with his children.
and certainly not as a weakling; for this reason he has learned

and his aim is deadly. But with detachment, with anger I
to shoot
would
The
say,
and the suspicion that each day may be
his
last.
king was seated in an armchair in his office in the royal pal140
Hussein of Jordan
141
ace, wearing a greenish, not very elegant suit, with a shirt that instead suited
him
well,
and
chair was huge and this

size
about
chosen with
taste.
The arm-
made him
look smaller than his actual
inches.
when he leaned
five feet three
In fact,
touched the carpet. But he leaned back
his feet hardly
resting his
a necktie
all
back,
the same,
elbows on the arms of the chair and clasping his hands
over his stomach, almost as though to show you that his short
stat-
him no complexes, and indeed he carried it with great dignity, aided by a well-developed body. Wide shoulders, bulging
the body of a young bull
biceps, solid thighs, and muscular calves
ure gave
ever in search of a brawl or a female to mount.
The comparison came
to
you spontaneously
you forgot
if
his
he had the desperate strength of a young bull that never gives
face;
him and he gets away, then he comes charging back.

him again, shut him up in a cage, and he shakes it until
you let him out into the arena. Where he fights. The more you
prod him, the more you torment him, the more you wound him,
the more he fights. Albeit in an uncertain, confused, mistaken way:
up.
You
You
rope
catch
a thrust of the horns here, of the
The
politics
of Hussein.
And
head there,
stamp of the hoof.
one can only wonder
if
his bitterness
and sadness are not chiefly born of this: of the realization of being
only a young bull flung into a corrida from which he can only
emerge dead. Picadors, banderilleros,
in
what
is
all
are united against
To
him
power is
ha\e been
basically a very simple conspiracy. In his case,
anything but comfortable. Just think of the attempts that
made on
enemies,
friends,
toreros,
Egyptians, Syrians, Palestinians,
Israelis,
his life ever since his youth.
say Hussein
is
to say assassination attempts.
To
say conspira-
bombs, poison. He himself has written that the

against him have been so numerous, varied, and continous
cies, pistol shots,
plots
that he
sometimes
time, as
feels like the
hero of
we know, was when he was
a dctectixe story.
sixteen
they killed his grandfîther, King Abdullah.

the Aksa
only
Mosque
fired at
was saved by
in
Abdullah
a
when
one
also hit
heavy medal that
took place in 1958.

tu'o
of
them
was on the
first
his eyes
steps of
Jerusalem, and the revolver shots were not
him, aimed
his grandfather
uniform; the bullet smashed against
MiGs
It
The
and before
He was
it.
at
the heart.
had pinned on
He
his
I'he episode of the Syrian
flying his plane toward
Europe
attacked him, and he only escaped thanks to his
142
skill as a pilot, going into a dive and then rising again, zigzagging,
and running the risk of crashing in the mountains and hills.
In 1960 they tried to do him in by a more insidious method. He
had developed sinus trouble and the doctor was treating him with
nose drops. One day Hussein opened a new bottle and a drop fell
on the washbasin, the washbasin began to sizzle, and a hole soon
appeared
acid for the medicine.
him
stab
Someone had substituted sulphuric

And what to say of the servant who tried to
Or of the cook who put poison in his food? It
in place of the drop.
in his sleep?
was discovered because one of

palace cats and the cats died.
his
his orderlies tested the food
And
the
bomb
on the
placed in the office of
prime minister, Hazza Majali, on the day when Hussein was
pay him a
Hussein did not die because the
visit?
bomb
exploded
to
in
advance, killing only the prime minister and eight other persons.
And
his
the four bursts of
machine-gun
fire
against
what looked
automobile and instead was the automobile of
the military revolt organized by the
army,
Abu Nuwar? The
jumped
sein
fired
around with
it
The most
life is
supreme commander of
his
and overtook them. Descending from the

at
him;
this
time he was saved
more quickly than the other man. He always goes
Colt .38 stuck in his
under
like
And
troops had been quartered at Zerqa; Hus-
he saw a revolver pointed
jeep,
because he
puts
a jeep
in
his uncle?
belt;
when he
goes to bed he
his pillow.
is that the more his

more he exposes himself. The day I arrived in
had noticed on the runway a sturdy young man with a
extraordinary fact about Hussein
in danger, the
Amman,
mustache who very
much
resembled Hussein.
He had
helped a
way to
London. Then he had gone to a Mercedes parked near the gate,
taken the wheel, and driven off by himself, taking the road that
leads into the city. I had exclaimed, "That looks like Hussein!"
And someone had answered, "Yes, it was Hussein. He always goes
pleasant lady and two children to board an airliner
without an escort, unguarded." Furthermore,

sist
that Hussein
1967,
when
head of
is
courageous.
He
is
go
to the front.
its
even absurd
to in-
so in a rash, irritating way. In
the Israelis were advancing
state to
it's
on
on Jordan, he was the only
Alone, in his jeep. His soldiers
fled,
and he went forward, under the whistle of bombs and

mortar shells. When the Israelis crossed the frontier at El Sifa and
in tatters,
attacked with
fifty
tanks,
he rushed off there and began following
Hussein of Jordan
143
done by the
the battle. Certain things were
condottieri of the past;
today not even the generals participate in combat.
So you can only conclude that he
emphasize the word physical
The
bulls.
nothing
danger.
likes physical
which
is
his great limitation.
And
As
in
very sports he practices represent a physical danger and
He
else.
enjoys parachuting, shutting off the engines of his
resume control only at the last

up to 180 miles an hour, doing
reckless stunts with his Hawker Hunter jet. There was a time when
he also liked to disguise himself as a taxi driver and look for passengers at night in the streets of Amman, so as to ask them what they
helicopter and letting
moment,
new
thought of the
The
king
named
Hussein.
king did not stand out in any particular gesture
tioned so
On
far.
smile carefree.
It
me
right for
in
had been so from the
Jordan and
thing happened,
whom
was
my
if
to let
moment he had thrown
hand, asking
if
things were going
me
anyone had given
him know immediately.
It
was obvious
to
remind you
that the master of the
point, the king
had offered
forward to light
it,
me
and
"
for
me
time
to address
forget
he had answered. "Nowadays a king
ployee of the
ceremony.
This
the second
is
state;
it
never do
quite true
doesn't
is
this
Jordanian cigarette and had leaned
enjoying the remark by which
ignorance of protocol. "They told
mind,
house
made
himself and not the fedayeen you've just met. Having
esty,'
all
trouble. If any-
he was alluding. His tone was that of the master of the
who wants
house
have men-
the contrary, his attitude was quiet, cordial, his
open the door and shaken
to
to
fall,
it
racing in his Porsche
seem
to
me
is
had
you
as
stressed
my
'Your Maj-
Majesty." "Never
nothing but an em-
appropriate to stand on
it."
when you remember
journalists in his shirt sleeves, that
he lived
that he often received

in a small villa of a
few
rooms where the servants were few, and that his wife Muna did the
cooking. At that time his wife was Muna, the nice British former
stenographer whose name before marrying him was Tony Gardiner. At the time,
and even while unfaithful
to her in countless af-
What accounted for

was really the simplicity of a woman who did
by cooking for him and who refused the title
fairs,
Hussein loved her.
reluctantly accepted that of princess.
would repudiate
her,
Kvo years
later,
this love,
not
feel
it
seems,
diminished
of queen, and only

So no one suspected that he
for a younger and more beau-
144
tiful wife.
opposed
His family
had been
life
like that
of any
little
bourgeois
to divorce.
if I might begin the interview. He nodded and at

same moment his carefree attitude disappeared. His voice,
which before had sounded masculine, authoritarian, sank and gave
out in a polite murmur: "Please, go ahead." This led me to suspect
something the possibility of which I hadn't even considered: that he
was timid. He is. Quite in the same way as fighting bulls when they
discover you're not hurting them and, overtaken by embarrassment,
retreat, bowing their necks. But still I was surprised. You're not
surprised, however, by the showman's instinct with which he anticipates your questions, the serpentine skill with which he parries
them. In fact, if his education is Western (we must not forget that
Hussein studied in a Swiss school and was molded by Glubb Pasha,
Sir John Bagot Glubb, the Englishman who set up his army), his
blood is Arab a thousand percent, laden with astuteness, with deI
asked the king
the
viousness.
At
my
first
question, his jaws closed, his arms jerked in an im-
perceptible shudder, and this reaction was to be repeated several
Or rather, every time I

him something uncomfortable. He does not enjoy
times in the course of our conversation.
may have
asked
being interviewed, and for
this reason
one.
He had promised me
over,
he looked
at his
forty
my
interview was not a long
minutes.
When
forty-five
watch and, scarcely concealing
were
his relief,
murmured, "I'm sorry, we must stop. I have another appointment." Nor was there any way to keep him longer. We parted at
the door with the promise to complete the interview a few days
later.
Instead,
didn't see
him
again.
Perhaps because he did not want to resume a conversation that

he knew had not been sincere? Or because actually what he had
told
me
about the Palestinians was one big
that engulfing armchair,
lie?
That day,
he had shown himself so
so tolerant, so desirous of peace.
sitting in
solid with
He had chewed
them,
the word peace
with the same wholeheartedness with which one masticates chewing
gum.
Five
months
later,
instead,
he was
to
Bedouins against the fedayeen and decimate them

bloodbath, the massacre that today goes under the
September.
The
unleash his
in a frightful
name
of Black
fedayeen defended themselves; the battle raged for
Hussein of Jordan
145
But in vain. They had been taken too much by surand could not hold out against an entire army. Even in the
refugee camps there were thousands of dead. Those who saw the
several days.
prise,
dead
state that
Hussein's troops were merciless.

off
And among
decapitated.
... An
children.
arms cut
genitals, legs,
Some had had
their
being tied up. Others had been
after
women and
the victims there were old
ugly, brutal story.
Indeed the whole civilized world reacted with disgust and con-
demned
And many
Hussein.
pushed the situation
much
worse.
to the
Nor were
What we now have to

Munich and Fiumicino,
Should
much
so.
it
Europe, with such episodes
with carnage that
is
as
not our business, with
Anyone who
at the
is
cannot reveal
as his certainly
less
he had
would be
a gesture
now on
strength by redoubling their terrorism.
suffer in
despise Hussein because he lied to
wouldn't say
mented
such
they wrong, for the survivors took refuge in
Lebanon and there regained
blackmail and
said that by
extreme, that from
me?
head of
don't know;
country so
his strategy to the
tor-
enemy,
confide in a journalist. Since his way of freeing himself
from the fedayeen was based on

ticipated massacre,
lied too well,
sudden about-face and an unan-
he had no other choice but
and that
lie
depicts a
man who
is
to lie to
me. But he
tragic, yes,
treacherous. Tragic by destiny, treacherous by necessity. As
convince myself when
but also
I
could
met him again almost three years later.

I met him again in November of 1974, one month after the Arab
Summit in Rabat. The summit where, unanimously, the Arab
leaders had taken from him Cisjordania and his right to negotiate
on the Palestinians' behalf. This time Hussein looked destroyed,
I
a living portrait of defeat
and humiliation. And indeed, the humiliit had been the fruit of a vengeance
ation had been burning, as
wanted and organized by
Arafat.
Seen under such circumstances,
Hussein aroused sympathy, almost
choose
let
truth:
his side of the barricade.
But
need
to
absolve
him and
us not forget the following
Those who hold power and shape the destiny of others should
never be judged in
corpse
hung by
moment
the
feet,
of misfortune or defeat.
If
seen as a
even Mussolini could arouse some
pity.
Those who hold power and shape the destiny of others must be judged
when
they are alive. So, in
remains the one that
my
opinion, the real portrait of Hussein
painted in
my
first,
and by now
old, interview.
146
It is
that interview that
and of
prefer to offer for the verdict of today
tomorrow.
ORIANA FALLACI: Majesty, but who
command
in
is
Jordan? At the
in
check points people are stopped by the fedayeen,

the fedayeen attack, in the villages
cide.
It's
no longer paradoxical
within your
Many
provokes friction.
things are not going well,
is
Jordan
I'm asked
why
fedayeen out
a sovereign state.
is
my
to
words
like
reasonable people
out.
going as
is
...
answer:
Not because
And
why
I'd like.
don't stop the fedayeen,
propaganda
says.
not true that
It's
cause they have every right to
and the
for twent>' years,
That land
Israelis
found, so to speak,
among
leaders aren't fools
Israeli
occupying
are
Be-
They've suffered
my
their land.
population
have
to
with them.
with
if
is
is
be with them.
much
haven't found
the fedayeen.
And
and have anger
I've
often
in their hearts,
We
will
reach an agreement
and I'm an optimist. Certainly
times painful. But in
faith
to. It's
what
that's
have uncontrolled consequences. This grieves
but doesn't discourage me.
keep
won't throw
hostility.
suffer oppression
their actions
faith
who should help them
But they aren't with you. Majesty.

friendship toward you
keep
when
don't forget that the tragedy of the refugees
Palestinian,
more evident here than elsewhere.
at
can't control them.
not Jordan? Don't forget that a good part of
When men
don't throw the
don't want
fight, to resist.
also Jordanian territory
is
still
won't stop them,
can't but because
not true that I'm a prisoner of the fedayeen;
H.:
observe and
to
think that certain things will change. But we're far from
saying that everything
O.F.:
this
the country that pays for the Israeli reprisals.
Their leaders have reacted
them
know. Ex-
talked at length with their leaders.
I've
agreements they bound themselves
Jordan
de-
a state
Sometimes
can't allow.
that often they haven't observed
and
up
to say they've set
cesses, a taking of positions that
And
borders
who
state.
HUSSEIN OF JORDAN:
cited the
at the
the fedayeen
it's
my
life
I've
it's
me
their
difficult,
one must make choices and then

to keep the fedayeen and I
chosen
choice.
Even
if
my
position
may seem
Hussein of Jordan
quixotic or naive
one day
we'll
147
have
to arrive at a
peace-
ful solution.
do you
O.F.: Majesty,
H.: Yes,
really believe in a peaceful solution?
do. I've always accepted the resolution offered by the
Security Council; I've always fought for

ing for
Israelis
in
H.:
to
position
do
is
to
is
clear:
say
and
go on
will
UN
fight-
and repeat that all the

territories occupied
withdraw from the
But the
There's no other way to achieve peace.
1967.
Israelis
O.F,:
My
it.
have
it
don't want to withdraw; they don't want peace.
By accepting the Security Council resolution, you grant Israel

the right to exist. In short, you don't deny that Israel is an historical reality that cannot be eradicated.
No,
don't deny
To
it.
accept that resolution automatically
includes the recognition of
Israel.
And
that
means
believe in
the possibility of living in peace with Israel.
But
O.F.:
this
is
exactly the opposite of
what the fedayeen want,
The fedayeen want to destroy Israel; they don't recognize Israel's right to exist. TL^ fedayeen consider as an enemy,
or rather a traitor, anyone who accepts the resolution offered
by the UN Securit)' Council. They reject every peaceful comMajesty!
promise, they don't exclude war, they're calling for war. Maj-
how can you
esty,
reconcile your position with that of the
fedayeen?
H.: In
appearance they can't be reconciled, but I'm sure that sooner
or later the fedayeen will end by being persuaded that

essary to reach a peaceful
states as well will
when you
my
tween
West
that
convince them of
stop to think of
it,
this necessity.
there's
no
nec-
And
then,
great difference be-
search for peace and their desire for war.
may
it's
compromise. Because other Arab
seem a paradox, but for us
who ha\e
In the
a
more
elastic mentality, there's no paradox. Both the fedayeen and

would never
myself want to see our rights recognized. And
I
accept a peace that didn't recognize our rights, their rights.

tell
you
if Israel
were
to accept the resolution of the Securit)'
the comattacks would cease

mandos would no longer have any reason to exist. It's the
Council,
the
commando
stubbomness of the
the
O.F.:
commandos, not
Allow
mc
Israelis that brings
about the existence of
vice versa.
to disagree, Majesty.
The fedayeen wouldn't
at all
148
be
with
satisfied
the
If
tories.
withdrawal from the occupied
Israel's
were
Israelis
fedayeen would pursue their attacks
why
other reason
H.:
must
believe,
still
want
to believe
someone must
believe in peace,
must
want
to set
that that's not so.
believe
O.F.: Majesty, in speaking of the Palestinian state they
up, the leaders of the fedayeen always repeat that
clude the territory on the
left
bank of the Jordan,

belong
doesn't this territory
it
will in-
in short the
to the
kingdom of
Jordan?
but
H.: Yes,
it's
almost completely inhabited by Palestinians
So
Palestine.
the
That's an-
farther.
the Israelis don't withdraw.
West Bank. But
terri-
withdraw their troops,
to
normal
it's
possession sooner or
for the Palestinians to
later.
And,
to
keep
want
it's
to regain
with the choices
faith
made, it's likewise normal that I don't oppose it. When

the time comes, I'll ask the Palestinians of the West Bank to
decide whether they want to remain with Jordan or become
I've
independent.
O.F.:
Bank
be
left
constitutes
cupying
it,
the
what
will
be
left
of
it?
West
the most fertile territory in Jordan. By ocIsraelis have caused us immense economic
.
what's
left.
harm. But once again there

either interests or conscience.
know
very well that the
arises the necessity for a choice:
When
a king,
anyway
head of
he recognizes the right of self-determination of
state, says that
a people, he
for your-
accept what they've decided.
I'll
But then Jordan
H.: There'll
Decide your future
say to them:
I'll
Then
selves.
must
carry
it
through
to the end.
It's
very easy to
be liberal in words, very difficult to be so in deeds.
And
also
war is over, Jordan will turn out to be the country

that has paid most cruelly and most bitterly of all.
O.F.: That part of Jordan you're ready to give up includes Jerusa-
when
this
lem, Majesty.
H.:
Yes
erty.
but Jerusalem should never be anyone's private prop-
Jerusalem
is
as sacred to the
Muslims
as
it is
to the Chris-
and Jews on this we Arabs are all in agreement. The

immediate problem, therefore, is for the Israelis to realize it as
well and recognize our rights over the Arab part of Jerusalem.
And not insist on annexing it to Israel. You emphasize the future conflicts in the Arab world and forget that it's the Israelis
tians
who want
to crush us
by their expansionism.
Hussein of Jordan
Majesty,
O.F.:
belong
these
149
don't belong to
conflicts
Arab unity doesn't
to the present.
the
exist
they
future,
we saw
that in
Rabat.
H.:
The Rabat conference
wasn't useful, but I've always
Arab unity wouldn't be achieved
known
that
conference table by
at the
gathering the heads of the various Arab states in one room.
can be reached only through separate contacts between
and
state
ourselves
slowly, patiently.
been
I've
and ourselves, Egypt and
Syria
Egypt several times, and
to
back again because each meeting
Corners
imagine.
..
fied
is
smoothed
get
It
state
more
away,
I'll
go
than you
fruitful
are
details
clari-
Even with Egypt, with Nasser? And speaking of Nasser, its

who went to him, Majesty. It's never Nasser who
comes to you. Is one permitted to draw conclusions?
Those who have less fear of traveling are the ones who travel.
O.F.:
always you
H.:
Some
much
people are bothered by airplanes because they cling too

to life. Let's
put
this
it
have no fear of traveling
way: airplanes don't bother me;
in search of friends.
Not even when those friends try to make you crash, as happened with those Syrian MiGs? Am I wrong, Majesty, or is it
always your Arab friends like Nasser who want to kill you?
I
don't want to talk about that.
There's no need to talk
about it.
The Arabs are my allies, my friends.
O.F.:
H.:
O.F.:
know, Majesty. But we
Italians
have
enemies,
I'll
look after
my
your friends, you always

tol
H.:
is
enough
to
me
is,
carr>' a pistol.
me
from
it.
to see
Are you sure that
a pis-
be killed.
I'll
swear
now
times that by
I'd
I've
it.
The
first
thing they
looked death
in
don't
the face so
I'm as accustomed to the risk as to
if
let
myself be obsessed by the idea
no longer go out of
feel safe there.
my
when you go
but aren't you afraid of being killed? No,
day and night. Besides,

of death,
guarantee your safet}?
even think about
many
protect
friends. In fact,
Westerners are always afraid

ask
God
case should be reversed as follows:
proverb that in your
I'm an Arab,
my
house and wouldn't even
believe in fate. God's will be
done, and what will be will be.

O.F.: All those
who
enjoy taking physical
risks
speak of fatalism.
Majesty.
H.:
No,
it's
not true that
enjoy
risks
no
intelligent person likes to
150
gamble with his hfe. But for me risk has become the natural
element in which to live what water is to a fish. A fish
doesn't even realize
elsewhere.
risk
for that;
do them because
courage
telligence,
the
man
Yes
Majesty.
that.
my
me
some
of
ad-
I'm afraid
enough.
And your
case shows
so.
And
mean
telling
There
it
it.
when
are days
He wakes up
up and dream
all to
go
to hell
man who
does
morning and
dilemma to keep
end up resolving the di-
Every morning
Majesty,
it.
fine plans, but I'd like to reply
peace?
job really thinks of
says
isn't a
question. Don't you ever get fed
realistic
man
enough if it's
I most admire
in a man is intelligence.
do you resolve things, and with determination.
retiring to live in
in a
man. But physinot accompanied by in-
of something more practical,
H.:
admire most
without courage
isn't
you've just told
and
gift
and what
Only with that

Not even with
with a
if
them
don't do
to take exercise.
hesitated before answering yes. Certainly
mire courage;
me
asked
couldn't live
always offer a
have to move,
it
sports
or else they're not sports. But
Someone once
cal
and
true,
it's
margin of
was courage.
O.F.:
sports,
like
living in water because
it's
in the
is
morning I
lemma by saying to myself: Keep going, you have to keep
going. You see,
wasn't born to do a king's job. When I was a
boy and the prospect of becoming king was still remote because I knew that when my grandfather died, the kingdom
would pass to my father, I thought of choosing a profession.
And I hesitated between the law profession and that of being a
pilot. The study of law is beautiful if you believe in the law as
I do. And then law is a search for all the whys
I would have
going or not.
every
made an excellent lawyer,

just
and unjust, of
being a
plane,
Though
pilot.
ing joy: the

I
right
open
never
let
and wrong.
for
me
The
it.
dialectical play of
Yes,
flying a plane
spaces, the technology.
is
become
my
still
better than
an overwhelm-
When
And
the copilot take the controls.
grandfather died so soon and
my
know
fly
instead
father got sick,
my
my
and
it
So young. Hardly seventeen.

Early, too early. If only you knew how tough it was for me. I
For so many
knew nothing and I kept making mistakes.
was
turn to
king.
years
made
mistakes. I've learned very late.
Hussein of Jordan
O.F.:
And once
let's
What
that
you'd learned, did you like
Or
Majesty?
it,
rather,
put the question in the most brutal and honest terms: as of
do you think
today,
H.:
151
it's
didn't choose this job
wouldn't have chosen
term
worth
it.
and
Majesty?
that, if
Because,
being a king
in prison,
it,
embarrassing question.
a difficult,
is
consider the problem of whether
if
life
I
I've
already told you
could have, perhaps
being head of
sentence. But
like
it
or not,
state
is
shouldn't
should con-
problem of doing it even if I don't like it. In any job

you get days of weariness, of nausea but if we give in to them,
sider the
who
we'd be
like those misfits
me,
never give up the job of king.
changing jobs and

end by doing all of them badly. No, so long as my people
want me, or so long as I'm alive among a people who want
I'll
before swearing
pride,
it
believe me.
think that to give
it
Because
tries to
Amman,
what
send
it
me
April 1972
sworn
it
to
myself
And
on the Riviera would be an

stay.
may. I'm ready

away.
I've
not only as a question of
love this land of mine.
live
of cowardice, of treason. So
not, cost
And
to others.
up and
are always
Whether
to face
it's
worth
anyone, anyone
it
act
or
who
Gandhi
Indira
This incredible
woman who
governed almost half a billion people
and won a war in the face of the opposition of the United States
and China. You looked at her and thought no one would succeed
in driving her from the throne she had democratically conquered,
Some
at that time.
said she
would go on being prime minister of
India for twenty years, and since she was only in her
might
it,
stay there for the rest of her
life.
When
you came
fifties
she
to think of
she was the only true queen and one of the few remarkable
rulers in the world, a

so, at that time.
women
good
And
thoroughbred horse,
at that time.
liked her
used to choose her as an example to show
can be
when
they govern a country.
who warned me,
refused to listen to those
admired
saying,
how
her.
"Maybe
you shouldn't trust her that much." I judged them envious of her
and her success. Then, suddenly, this changed.
It was in the spring of 1975, when she gave up democracy and
talent
became
a dictator.
It
and what she had
was when she forgot what her father had done

lasted
for,
freedom.
All
quickness of a blow, in a few days, a few hours.

as
it
is
wrongly,
so
recent.
maybe
She had been
excessively,
campaign (some minor
for
tried
illicit
fault that all
152
We
know
the story,
and convicted, maybe
behavior in the electoral

politicians
country and in the world) and she had been
having to consider resigning her power,
happened with the
like
commit
in
her
put in the situation of
Nixon had done. Resig-
Gandhi
Indira
153
nation was imperative. Yet she would not resign. She refused to do
what even Nixon had done. And, with
coup
be compared to
up being Prime
to
the coups of the most ruthless tyrants, she gave
Minister Indira to
become
Dictator Indira. Overnight she had
all
the opposition arrested, the constitution violated, and freedom as-
name
sassinated. In the
order.
It
of democracy, of course,
always takes place that way.
not summarize; people
will
because of the coup,
my
woman to
know
rejected her
and shame
didn't hide
regret
as a
love and respect.
But
it.
and of law and of
said this in a report that
and
it's
my
admiration for her.
having portrayed her
at
worth recalling that

I
in the past
been a disturbing task at

Her personality eluded any attempt to fix it in any
precise shape or color. It was too many things at once, and all in
Jt
is
true that doing a portrait of her had
that time too.
conflict
among
themselves.
Many
people didn't
called her arrogant, cynical, ambitious, ruthless.
like her.
And
they
They accused her
of ideological inconsistency, of demagoguery, of playing a double
game. Many, on the other hand,
And
in love with her.

brilliant.
They
liked her, to the point of falling
they called her strong, courageous, generous,
extolled her
good sense, her equilibrium, her hon-
Among those who didn't like her, you often found men.
Among those who did, you often found women. Indeed it's hard
to be a man and accept the remark that circulated in India: "She
esty.
wears the trousers
woman and
be a
all
not
right." In other words,
it
was impossible
to
redeemed, vindicated, by her enormous
feel
which belied all the banalities used to justify patriarchy

and male rule in any society. Being a woman, justifications of
success,
her wrongs
came much
easier. In fact, at that time,
liked to point
out that to rule a country and especially a country
like
so quarrelsome, so complex, one must not be a saint.
Henry Kissinger may

important
that's
head of
state
is
in
say
strength.
rule a country like India

saint,
about
head of
state.
power
The
("It's
not
India,
Whatever
intelligence
quality that counts in a
Courage, shrewdness, and strength"), to

one must be intelligent. She is truly not a
hou
she knows in every sense
used to say, on the other hand, she
to drink
is
from the cup of
intelligent.
life,
mitting that interviewing her was easier than understanding her,
gave judgments that even
now
must recognize
now
that
And, while adI
don't withdraw. For instance, even
on personal matters, she
is
spontaneous.
154
She hides nothing, she unveils herself in a caressing, modulated,

highly pleasant voice. Her face too is pleasant. She has beautiful
hazel eyes, a little sad, and a strange, indulgent, enigmatic smile
that awakens curiosity. She resembles no one, not even in her
black curls that on the right side are lightened by an odd streak of
gray hair, almost a flash of silver. I also must recognize that she
bursts out with modern ideas. Note her answer to my question
about religion. When one is the leader of the most religious people
on earth, it takes guts to say that you don't believe in the gods but
in man.
Also,
cannot forget that she
not an ordinary
is
ordinary destiny and an ordinary past. First of

Jawaharlal Nehru; second, she
ter of
all,
woman
she
a disciple of
is
is
with an
the daugh-
Mohandas
K.
(Mahatma) Gandhi the two legendary figures who dared to challenge the British Empire and started its breakup. In their shadow
she grew up, was educated and shaped. And if today Nehru is mentioned
as
Indira's
Nehru's daughter.
until
father,
If
today the
with Indira's surname (she has
Mahatma),
related to the
yesterday
name
it
of
Indira
Gandhi
among
until yesterday Indira
owed
the case of a
The
among
the founders of the Congress Party,
ecutive committee, and also her aunt
was
to
be the only
woman
child, Indira not only sat

laps of
The
first
all
school of
make
life
Pandit,
called to preside over the
ex-
who
UN. As
sat
on the
were to create India.
independence took place before her eyes, her
being the police
There
arrests.
and saying, "I'm
Vijayalakshmi
on the lap of the Mahatma, she
men who
the important
struggle for
in politics for generations.
which Indira belongs. Her parents were members of the
to
to
is
part of her
exceptional people in exceptional times.
Nehru family had been immersed

grandfather had been
as
from her husband, who was not
popularity to the fact of being called Gandhi. Hers
person born
was known
creates confusion
is
who descended on them
a story of her
sorry, there's
no one
opening the door
at
grandfather, grandmother, and aunt are
home.
all in
My
at
night
to friends
father,
mother,
prison." Also for this
reason she was sent to study in Switzerland at the age of eight. But
at thirteen
the
she
Monkey
strict
came back and founded
a corps of little guerrillas,
Brigade. Six thousand children
themselves to carrying messages
British barracks.
Led by
her.
The
who
did not always re-
sometimes they
letters that
attacked the
Nehru wrote her from
Indira
...
you
fascinated
how your
read the story of Jeanne d'Are, and
first
ambition was to be something hke her?
making
155
"Do you remember how
prison are of this period.
were when you
Gandhi
In India today
we
are
and you and I are fortunate to see this happening

before our eyes and to take some part ourselves in this great
drama." Today the letters are collected in two volumes and used in
history,
the schools.
She too was
in prison
for thirteen
sentence of the special tribunal,
months, but according
to the
should have been seven years.
it
She was there with her husband. Returning to Europe to attend

Somerville College at Oxford, she had joined the Labour Par^^y and
met a young lawyer from Bombay Feroze Gandhi. He too was up
neck
to his
months
1942. Six
rested
this
Delhi in February
had them both
ar-
was the beginning of
and certainly not happy, marriage.
In 1947,
to
woman
in
later the British authorities
and charged with subversion, and
difficult,
went
They were married
in politics.
when Nehru became prime minister, Indira practically

with her father, who was a widower and needed a
live
at his side.
He opposed
it
Feroze Gandhi could never accept
until the
day he died,
in 1960,
this choice.
of a heart attack. But
he didn't blunt her decision. Driven likewise by resentment over

the excessive attentions that,
women,
for
Feroze paid
so they say,
than with her husband. They called her "the

"the daughter of the nation." Together with
received heads of state, held
committee of the
tive
men
death, in 1964,
seemed
in
it
rallies.
first
lady of India,"
him she
traveled,
In 1956, she joined the execu-
party. In 1958, she
and expelled the
And
other
to
seventeen years Indira spent more time with her father
became head of the
she had admired as a child.

inevitable that she
would
On
party
Nehru's
take his place.
the elections of 1966 she did so, carrying off 355 seats as
against 169. Later, in the 1970 elections, her triumph was doubled
and didn't end
till
the day she betrayed democracy, the
memory
of
her father, herself. So, until that day, one could say that her political
biography had something in
who
also
came
between the two
to
women
whom
with that of Golda Meir,
a party career.
And
the parallel
did not end there, since
unhappy marriage, Golda too

loved and by
common
power through
sacrificed to
Golda too had an

power the husband she
she had had two children. Their lives con-
firmed with chilling exactness
how
difficult
it is
for a
woman
of
tal-
156
her talent and at the same time save her happiness.
,ent to realize
More than
actually impossible to the point of tragedy.
difficult,
and injustice of being a woman

were demonstrated precisely by the two women who had arrived at
the top of the pyramid. And it was painful ind infuriating to disParadoxically,
cover that a
mean, the
man
with a destiny can follow
up
family, without giving
things don't coexist.

truth doesn't
strain
Or
end because
love.
A woman
it
without giving up his
cannot. For her, the two
And such
they coexist only in tragedy.
democracy has ended.
Indira's belief in
It
on which men should meditate a lot. I say

more: in that sense, I'm still on the side of Indira. My refusal of the
woman as politician is not accompanied by my refusal of the
woman as such. Even during the hours that followed the arrest of
the opposition leaders and her coup, that is even during the burst of
remains a
my
bitter reality
indignation against her,
was and how
how
couldn't help thinking
much more unhappy
man who
than a
alone she
puts himself in
same situation.
met Indira Gandhi in her office in the government palace. The
same office that had been her father's large, cold, and plain. She
was sitting, small and slender, behind a bare desk. When I entered,
she got up and came forward to give me her hand, then sat down
the
I
again and cut the preliminaries short by fixing
meant:
Go
ahead with the
first
me
with a gaze that
question, don't waste time,
really
She answered cautiously at first. Then she

up
like
flower
and the conversation flowed along without
opened
a
obstacles, in mutual sympathy. We were together for more than
have no time
to waste.
two hours, and when the interview was over, she
accompany me
corridors
me
to the taxi waiting for
and going down the
though she had always known
she held
stairs,
me and
me
don't envy you, and
said,
"The problem
is
all
talked about this
of a sudden
and
whether she had, even then,

later,
that,
officials.
She
down
And she
exclaimed, "Deep
shouldn't like to be in your place."
that unfinished phrase.
represented and, years
not in the problems
around me. Democracy, you know
meant by
Along the
by the arm, as
responding with an absent-minded nod to the bows of

looked tired that day, and
the office to
left
in the street.
."I
have,
in the idiots
it's
now wonder what
And sometimes
a certain contempt
would overthrow.
for the
she
ask myself
system she
Indira
Gandhi
Forty-eight hours later, having found

I
157
some gaps
in the interview,
wanted to see her again, but without standing on ceremony
to her house,
No one
Rajiv and Sanjay.
when
she
flowers.
asked her
The
if
went
with
came
wreaths of
protests,
petitions,
bell, the secretary
to open the door, and
me
the prime minister could give
another half hour.
went away and came
"Let's see," then
secretary answered,
Gandhi
morning when she
accessible than Indira
realize this in the
who come
rang the
more
is
home, and you
is
people
receives
modest bungalow that she shares with her sons
sit down, let's have a cup of tea." We

room opening on the garden and talked
back with Indira. "Come,
sat
down
for
the living
in
another hour. Besides the things
who
me
asked her, she told
about her
and is a pilot for AirIndia, then of her younger son Sanjay, who is an automobile designer
and still a bachelor. Finally she called a beautiful dark little boy
who was playing on the lawn, and embracing him tenderly, murson Rajiv,
mured, "This
world."
is
was
It
is
married to an Italian
my
a
of,
their
own
The
read
is
man
the
a child.
It
brought back
the solitude that oppresses
lost his
might hear
to
women
own dreams,
destinies, their
mind
the injustice
The
mistakes.
fact
is
temper, and feeling jealous, sent for
his side.
chapter on Bhutto.
But
this
What
is
a story
on defending
intent
own
their
interview with Indira had a sequel.
it,
love most in the
sensation to watch this very powerful
strange
woman embracing
spoke
grandchild; this
girl
that Bhutto
me
so that
will save for later, in the
care for, instead,
to
is
make
clear that
must be read recalling that it took place when she

saw her as I don't today. Usually I
wasn't what she is today, and
met and judged.
do not change my mind about people whom
The first impression remains valid. But sometimes I do, with pride.
this interview
Because having
mind means
also using
it
to recognize a mistake
and correct it. Fspccially wiien history is involved. And history

something in movement, in process, like life. History is life.
is
have so many questions to ask

ORIANA FALLACI: Mrs. Gandhi,
and
political.
The personal ones, however,
you, both personal
I
I'll
leave for later
afraid of
once
you and
call
I've
understood
you cold, indeed
why many people

icy,
hard
are
158
INDIRA GANDHI: They say that because I'm sincere. Even too sin-
And because
cere.
don't waste time in flowery small talk, as
people do in India, where the
how
pliments: ''How are you,
grandchildren, and so forth."
And compliments,
"Hurry up,
let's
that goes with
know how
am,
to
Then
frankness:
mood
act;
I'm
there's another reason,
don't put on an act.
always show myself
I'm happy,
If
in.
react.
You can
O.F.: Fine.
how
ask anything
I'll
don't
what
for
look happy;
a war.
dangerous one.
tory a
And now
others will react.
you
if
you hoped
But quite
ally
should avoid dangers.

if
what seems
Do you
really think that
for? Aren't
right involves
thought of the consequences of

the consequences later,
face the
new
dangerous.
situation.
those
risks
with the
ment.
new
want
reality.
danger
my
And
may
don't think one
that's
reality
hope
situation arises
You
it.
yet
I'll
never
I've
examine
and
then
say this victory

tell
if it's
If,
is
danger-
however,
act in accordance
that sounds like a positive statein a positive
way.
want
to state
be friendship between Bangladesh and our-
not a one-sided friendship, of course
If
one must
a necessary action.
new
anything for nothing; each has something

thing to take.
turn out in-
well,
philosophy
no one can
answer you
to
will
it
don't see the risks you mention.
should become
that there will

selves.
when
And
say that today
ous, that today
this vic-
Bangladesh
think one should do what seems right.
danger. That's always been
risk the
You have won,
few of us consider
you afraid
stead to be a most uncomfortable burden?
Look, life is always full of dangers and
be the
go ahead.
like.
begin with the most brutal question.
more than won,
that
And
doesn't worry about
And
done. But
is
mine, and when
this attitude of
show it. Without worrying about how others may

When one has had a life as difficult as mine, one
I'm angry,
I.G.:
are your
refuse to indulge in small talk.
hard.
icy,
my
put on an
whatever
in
how
get to the point," they feel hurt.
think I'm cold, indeed
one
com-
spent in
is
save for after the job
people can't stomach
in India
say,
if at all,
half hour
first
are your children,
we
Bangladesh
offer
is
something
offering
to
Bangladesh,
something
shouldn't Bangladesh be able to keep
no one does
to give
its
to
us.
and someit's
obvious
And why
promises? Economi-
Gandhi
Indira
cally
it
of resources and can stand on
full
it's
seems
me
to
159
led by trained people.
shelter here are going
home.
going
home?
refugees
Are they
I.G.:
Yes, two million have already gone back.
O.F.:
Two
I.G.:
No, but give them time. They're going back

I'm
O.F.:
million out often. That's not
More than
satisfied.
took
much.
fast.
Fast enough.
expected.
Mrs. Gandhi, in mentioning the dangers of your victory,

wasn't referring only to Bangladesh.
West Bengal, which

its
independence.
And
was also referring
and which
India,
is
And you know why? Because
already taking place in India.
is
already
Calcutta
to
for
.
revolu-
Shanghai and Calcutta."
No. That's not possible.

here
in
"The world
there's a sentence of Lenin's that says,
lution
now clamoring
is
heard the Naxalites
I've
tion will pass through

I.G.:
who
O.F.:
really
Politically
its feet.
The
peacefully
and
a revo-
Things are changing
democratically.
no
There's
danger of communism. There would be
if
government instead of mine.
communists gained
strength in India
ing to the right.
In fact the
we had
a rightist
when the people thought my party was movAnd they were correct. In the face of such a
threat, they
had no other choice but
the far
But now that the people are conscious of our
forts,
left.
now
to
throw themselves
to
ef-
communists
West Bengal, they
that they see us resolving problems, the
are losing strength.
for the Naxalites in
under control, and I'm sure that the ones
are completely
Bangladesh
As
will also
be brought under control. No,
in
don't ex-
pect trouble.
O.F.
They've already given you some trouble,

fearful lynchings in
I.e.:
They happened
Dacca
in
Bangladesh.
saw
after the liberation.
in the first five
days and were few
in
compari-
son with the massacres that the others carried out, in comparison with the million people the others
some unfortunate
them.
If
incidents,
inevitable that
you
stand
true,
killed.
and we
There were
tried to
prevent
you only knew how many people we saved! But we
couldn't be everywhere,
ties
it's
some
we
find groups that
them
too.
couldn't sec everything, and it was

would escape us. In all communibehave badly. But you must under-
things
They were
so enraged, blinded by resentment.
l6o
To
be
one should not consider what you saw
just,
days but what they saw and suffered for

O.F.: Mrs.
dians
Gandhi, you know the accusation that
who provoked
this
in a
few
many months.
war and attacked
was you In-
it
What do you
first.
say to that?
I.G.: I'd
answer by admitting
that, if
helped the Mukti Bahini. So,
you .want to go way back, we

you consider it all as begin-
if
ning with that aid and from that moment, yes

ones to
start
But we couldn't do otherwise.
it.
keep ten million refugees on our
an unstable situation
for
soil;
we
on
were the
couldn't
couldn't tolerate
who knows how
refugees wouldn't have stopped
^we
We
long.
That
the contrary.
such
influx of
It
would
have gone on and on and on, until there would have been an
We
explosion.
were no longer able
those people, in our
own
interest
to control the arrival of
we had
to stop
it!
That's
what I said to Mr. Nixon, to all the other leaders I visited in

an attempt to avert the war.
However, when you look at the beginning of the actual war,
it's
not hard to recognize that the Pakistanis were the ones
to
planes, at five o'clock that
who descended on us with their

afternoon when the first bombs fell
on Agra.
you by the
attack.
They were
I
the ones
can prove
it
completely by surprise.
to
The weekend
fact that
is
we were taken
when
the only time
government can leave Delhi, and, well, almost no

one was in Delhi. I had gone to Calcutta. The defense minister had gone to Patna and from there he was to go to Bangalore in the south. The finance minister had gone to Bombay
and was about to go to Poona. The head of the armed forces
was somewhere else; I don't remember where. We all had to
rush back to Delhi, and for this reason our troops went on the
we
in the
counteroffensive only the next day, instead of in a few hours.
some
we were prepared; we knew that something
would happen. But we were only really ready for air attacks. If
For
this
areas.
it
O.F.:
I.G.:
reason the Pakistanis succeeded in occupying
Naturally
hadn't been for that, they would have knocked us out.
trip you took to Europe and

America to avert the conflict. Gan you tell the truth today
about what happened? How did things go with Nixon?
I made the trip knowing I was like the child putting his finger
Mrs. Gandhi, you mentioned the
Gandhi
Indira
And
into the hole in the dike.
don't
know
one can't
...
there are things that
oh,
And
spoke clearly to Mr. Nixon.
161
why
I
The truth is that

him what had al-
not!
told
Pompidou, Mr. Brandt. I told

him, without mincing words, that we couldn't go on with ten
million refugees on our backs, we couldn't tolerate the fuse of
such an explosive situation any longer. Well, Mr. Heath, Mr.
Heath, Mr.
ready told Mr.
Pompidou, and Mr. Brandt had understood very well. But not
Mr. Nixon. The fact is that when the others understand one
thing, Mr. Nixon understands another. I suspected he was
knew that the Americans had
very pro-Pakistan. Or rather
I
always been
were
of Pakistan
in favor
in favor of Pakistan,
However,
changing
so
much
because they
had recendy had the impression they were
not
becoming
not
but because they were against India.
so
much
by becoming
less anti-India.
anything but avert the war.
me
perience taught
less
My
was wrong.
It
pro-Pakistan as by
Nixon did
visit to
was useful only
to
me. The ex-
when people do something
that
against
you, that something always turns out in your favor. At least
you can use

and
it
you'll see
know why
liked
me,
to
it
won
yes,
your advantage.
It's
a law of life
holds true in every situation of

the last elections?
because
It
but also be-
yes,
cause the opposition had behaved badly toward me.
you know why

do
yes,
it,
won
this
it
Do you
was because the people
had worked hard,
check
life.
war? Because
my army
And do
was able
to
but also because the Americans were on the side of
Pakistan.
O.F.:
I.G.:
don't understand.
Let
me
been
explain.
But
stan.
if
it
America always thought
hadn't helped Pakistan,
a stronger country'.
You
it
was helping Paki-
Pakistan
would have
don't help a country b\ support-
ing a military regime that denies any sign of democracy,
what defeated Pakistan was
its
military regime.
and
That regime
supported by the Americans." Sometimes friends arc dangerous.

O.F.:
And
We
must be very careful about the help friends give

The Chinese too were on Pakistan's
the Chinese?
and unless I'm mistaken, China
is
the largest potential
us.
side,
enemy
of India.
I.e.:
No.
don't see
why we and
the Chinese should have to be
102
We
enemies.
don't want to be their enemies.
we
they want,
can't
they really want

sis
it
because
it
well,
so?
don't think
more
lighter
than the
skillful
touch
had
they could have done more for Pakistan.
to,
who
was the Americans
It
for the position they held in
think they've been
Americans. Certainly they've had
wanted
what
If that's
but
it,
don't think that in the final analy-
would do them any good. As

war
this
do anything about
they
Isn't that
sent the Seventh Fleet into the
as to take no chances,
remove our troops from the Chinese border, but never
believed the Chinese would intervene by making a false move.
Bay of Bengal, not the Chinese. So
didn't
never believed in the danger of a third world
In other words,
war. Naturally,
if
the Americans had fired a shot,
enth Fleet had done something more than

of Bengal
O.F.:
It
up
all
the Third
in the cult of
nonviolence, Mrs.
You must keep in mind that

And anyway I'll
by a
mir,
World War would have
ex-
who were brought

Gandhi!
wonder how
about war with you
it
face others.
when
the Sev-
these days of conflict.
felt in
wasn't
tell
you
my
first
war; I've had to
a little story
about non-
had barely become independent,
India
violence.
if
there in the Bay
honesty, not even that fear occurred to me.
feels so strange to talk
you've
I.G.:
yes,
ploded. But, in
sit
in
1947,
which at the time was ruled

maharajah. The maharajah fled, and the people of KashPakistan invaded Kashmir,
Sheikh Abdullah, asked
led by
who was
Mountbatten,
Indian help.
for
Lord
governor general, replied that he
still
wouldn't be able to supply aid to Kashmir unless Pakistan

declared war, and he didn't seem bothered by the fact that the
Pakistanis were slaughtering the population.
So our leaders
decided to sign a document by which they bound themselves

to
go to war with Pakistan.
And Mahatma Gandhi,
apostle of
He
when one
nonviolence, signed along with them. Yes, he chose war.
was nothing else to do. War is

must defend somebody or defend oneself.
persist in seeing this war
O.F.: The point is
inevitable
said there
brothers.
And both
I.e.:
Not
even said so
of
entirely.
as
war between
General Aurora and General Niazi.
them answered,
basically
ally brothers.
to
"Basically
The
know you were
we
are brothers."
Indians and Pakistanis are

surprised
when,
liter-
after the fall of
Indira
Gandhi
163
officers
shook hands. But do you
Dacca, Pakistani and Indian
reaHze that, up until 1965, in our army and the Pakistani one
you could come across generals who were brothers? Blood

brothers, sons of the same father and the same mother. Or you
found an uncle on one side and a nephew on the other, a
cousin here and a cousin there. Besides
true today.
it's still
I'll
There was a time when even two ambassadors to Switzerland, the one from India and the one from
Pakistan, were two blood brothers. Oh, the Partition imposed
tell
you something
on us by the
else.
was so unnatural!
British
them
families, to break
up.
It
served only to divide
remember harrowing
episodes.
who emigrated, people who didn't want to emigrate.

Many Muslims didn't want to leave India to go to live in
People
.
Pakistan, but the propaganda was that there they'd have greater
opportunities and so they
want
hand, didn't
and so they
prop>erty
Many
left.
to stay in Pakistan,
Hindus, on the other
but they had
ties
there or
stayed.
To become our enemies what an absurdity. A crazy absurdity when you stop to think that we, Muslims and Hindus,
had conducted the struggle
for
independence together. Yes,
even under the British there were hostile groups. There were
we found out
But, as
clashes.
who had no
Partition. The
these were clashes pro-
later,
on
the
voked by those
wish to
eve of the
policy of keeping us divided was
let
us live together
always followed by foreigners, even after the Partition.

dians and Pakistanis had been together
...
If In-
don't say as con-
federated countries but as neighboring and friendly countries

.
.like Italy
and France,
for
of us would have progressed

that
it
was not
It
war, that
we
tear
in
"someone's"
each other
solve the Pakistanis.
one encouraged them

ons to attack us.
O.F.:
And
How
You know
What
talks,
"someone"
interest that
to pieces. Yes,
me, both
would seem
believe
further. But,
it
for us to make
we be always at
I'm inclined to ab-
should they have behaved? Some-
to attack us,
someone gave them weap-
they attacked us.
Bhutto says that he would be ready

with India.
I.e.:
interest of
in the
was
progress.
example
much
to set
up
a confederation
do you think of that, Mrs. Gandhi?
Bhutto
is
not a very balanced man.
vou never understand
When
what he means. What
he
does he
164
mean
time? That he wants to be friends with us? We've
this
wanted
to
wanted
to.
be friends with him for some time;
always
I've
Here's something that Westerners don't know.
The
Western press has always insisted that India was Pakistan's

enemy and vice versa, that the Hindus were against the Muslims and vice versa. They've never said, for instance, that my
been fighting
party has
membered
into
this attitude ever since
that religious hostilities are
wrong and absurd,
cannot be eliminated from
a country, that
religions
must
how
we were
dis-
two countries. Since then we have maintained

that minorities
people of different
live together.
possible for people in the modern world to go

on killing each other for religion? The problems we should be
concerned with nowadays are quite different! They're the
But
is
it
problems of poverty, of the
rights of the
of the
individual,
changes brought about by technology. They're the ones that

count,
more than
religion!
Because they're universal prob-
lems, because they pertain in equal measure to Pakistan and

ourselves.
can't take
scream that religion
is
it
seriously
when
people get excited and
and similar
in danger,
fortunately even in India there are people
And
they're the
same ones who
Un-
talk like that.
"We should never have

Now that exists, ought
say,
accepted the existence of Pakistan.

to
stupidities.
who
be destroyed." But these are only a few
it
it
madmen who
have
no following among the masses.

In India you don't find propaganda against Pakistan. During
the war there was a little of it, naturally, but even during the
war we were able to control it. In fact the Pakistanis were astonished by this. There were prisoners in the camp hospitals
who exclaimed, "What? You're a Hindu doctor and you want
to cure me?" Lx)ok, I can only reply to Bhutto that, if he
knows what he's saying, he's saying the only thing to be said.
And if he didn't say that, what would his future be? I'm told
Bhutto is ambitious. I hope he's very ambitious; ambition may
help
O.F.:
To
him
see reality.
digress a
moment, Mrs. Gandhi. You're not
religious, are
you?
I.G.:
Well
...
Certainly
it
I
depends on what you mean by the word
religion.
don't go to temples and pray to the gods or any-
Gandhi
165
by rehgion we
mean a behef in humanmake man better and a
Indira
thing hke that. But
little
O.F.:
if
rather than the gods, an effort to
it\'
happier, then yes, I'm very religious.
hope
that wasn't
an embarrassing question, Mrs. Gandhi.
No, why?
O.F.: This one is embarrassing, however. You've always proclaimed
a policy of nonalignment, then last August you signed the
Indo-Soviet friendship pact. Isn't there a conflict between the
I.G.:
tuo things?
No,
I.G.:
wouldn't say
so.
Because what does nonalignment
mean? It means we don't belong to any military bloc and that

we reserve the right to be friends with any country, independently of the influence of any countr). All this has remained
unchanged
after
others can
say
the signing of the Indo-Soviet treaty,

or think
what they
change because of the Soviet Union.

India's destiny
exists,
Soviet
you
how
and
it
Union than
Yes, the treaty
We
our
know
we have toward other

Nor does it exist on only one
Look
That
is,
It
it
is
international
in
Still,
us from being friends with other countries,
doesn't prevent
which indeed we
same nonalignyou we'll go on making
doesn't prohibit us from practicing the
ment, as indeed we do.
And
assure
our decisions without worrying whether
it
pleases or displeases
anyone
the Soviet Union, China, America, France, or
Do you want
to
know something
else?
A month
else.
after the sign-
someone asked Chou En-la what he thought of it. And

don't see
En-lai answered, "It makes no difference.
why it should make any difference."
Opening an Indian embassy in Hanoi in the near future does
make a difference, however. In fact, you are head of the International Control Commission for Vietnam. What does this
mean? That you'll give up membership on the commission
ing
Chou
:
countries.
side.
we're situated geographically and you'll see that India
matters, the treaty changes nothing.
O.F.
treat)'
puts us in a different position toward the
very important for the Soviet Union.
are.
very well that
the one
exists.
and
won't
policy
linked to world peace. However, the
is
say,
like
and your chairmanship?

I.e.:
don't know.
still
()b\iously the problem arises.
haven't thought about
how
to resolve
it.
And
to talk
But
about
l66
this.
Let's talk
about
Control Commission
What good
thing.
does
do
gave
happy
O.F.:
Saigon the situation
in
have done what
to
So are people
be on
to
it
never done any-
it's
or not? Before opening
a lot of thought, but
it
American policy
really a painful decision.

is,
anyway. Listen, the International
it
the embassy in Hanoi,
it
it
doing anything,
isn't
in
wasn't
it
Vietnam
is
what
anything but normal, and I'm
is
did.
right to think you're
more on
the
left
than your
father was?
I.G.:
Look,
and
don't see the world as something divided between right
left.
And
I don't at all care who's on the right or left or in

Even though we use them, even though I use
the center.
them
myself, these expressions have lost
one
interested in
label or the other
all
I'm
solving certain problems, in getting where

certain objectives. They're the
to give
same
meaning. I'm not

only interested in
want
to go.
my
objectives
have
father had:
people a higher standard of living, to do away with the
cancer of poverty, to eliminate the consequences of economic

backwardness.
best
way
tions
want
And
to succeed.
possible, without caring
leftist
It's
the
want
succeed
to
whether people
in the
my
call
ac-
or rightist.
same
story as
when we
nationalized the banks. I'm
not for nationalization because of the rhetoric of nationalization,
or because
see
in
nationalization the cure-all for
every injustice. I'm for nationalization in cases where
When we
my
it's
nec-
was
dis-
turbed by one trend in favor and one against. So as not to
split
essary.
the party,
were
first
considering
it,
party
suggested a compromise: to give the banks a year's
time and see
if
they succeed in showing us that nationalization
wasn't necessary.
done any good,
The
year went by and
that the
money
still
we
realized
ended up
in the
the rich industrialists or friends of the bankers. So

that
it
was necessary
Without considering
to nationalize the banks.

it
socialist gesture or
gesture, just a necessary one.
Anyone who
it
hadn't
hands of
concluded
And we
an
did.
antisocialist
nationalizes only so
be considered on the left to me is a fool.

However, you've used the word socialist on various occasions.
Yes, because it's the closest to what I want to do. And because
as to
O.K.:
I.G.:
in all societies that
have applied a form of socialism, a certain

Indira
Gandhi
167
degree of social and economic equality has been achieved. But
now even
by
Swedes
The Russians
themselves
call
Germany
word socialism has
the
interpretations.
And
socialists.
many meanings and
so
themselves
call
there was also a national socialism.
O.F.:
Mrs. Gandhi, what does the word socialism
I.G.:
Justice.
more
O.F.
But
the
socialists,
not forget that in
let's
Yes,
it
means
justice.
It
means
mean
to
you?
work
trying to
in a
egalitarian society.
pragmatic sense, free of ideologies.
in the
I.G.: Yes. Because what good does
logy
if
it
do
remain
to
you don't achieve anything by
you can't work
it?
an ideo-
tied to
have an ideology
vacuum; you have to have faith in

something. As my father said, you have to keep an open
mind, but you have to pour something into it otherwise
ideas slip away like sand between your fingers. The fact that I
myself
in a
mean
have an ideology, however, doesn't
Nowadays you can no longer

the
wodd
years ago
changing so
is
Look, for
me
today;
it's
outdated.
the only point that has remained
through the years
is
that in India there
great part of the people
still
is still
become
it
free?
were always
do
be free? After
to
Not
just to
clear.
We
so
unchanged
much
poverty.
don't enjoy the benefits they
should have derived from independence
good does
I'm indoctrinated.
yourself be indoctrinated
Even what you wanted twenty
fast!
no longer relevant
is
let
all,
throw out the
and
why
so then
British.
About
this
all
to
we
always said that our struggle was not
only against the British as representatives of colonialism,

against
what
we want
did
the evil that existed in India.
The
evil
it
was
of the feudal
system, the evil of the system based on caste, the evil of eco-
nomic
injustice.
Well, that
evil
twenty years we're politically

ing reached the objective
O.F.:
I.G.:
we
has not been uprooted. After
free, yes,
but very
far
from hav-
set for ourselves.
So then what point have you reached?

7
hat's difficult to say
shifting.
you
because the point of arrival
Have you ever climbed
arrive at the top of a
the highest point. But

long.
You soon
it's
is
continually
mountain? You
see,
once
mountain, you think you've reached

only an impression that doesn't
realize that the peak you've
last
climbed was one
of the lowest, that the mountain was part of a chain of
moun-
l68
that there are
tains,
climb.
climb
And
the
even though
still so many,
so many mountains
more you climb, the more you want
to
to
you're dead tired.
I mean,
poverty assumes so many aspects here in India.
There aren't only the poor that you see in the cities, there are
among the tribes, the poor who live in the forest, the
who live on the mountains. Should we ignore them as
long as the poor in the cities are better off? And better off with
reference to what? To what people wanted ten years ago? Then
the poor
poor
it
seemed
vast
like so
much. Today
when you govern
look,
and complex
when you
you never
as India,
so
and especially
much. So
a country so
arrive at anything. Just
think you've achieved something, you realize you've
And
achieved nothing.
same
no longer
it's
a country,
toward
still
dream
you have
go forward
to
just the
so distant that your road has neither
beginning nor end.

O.F.:
And
you, Mrs. Gandhi
at
what point have you
arrived
on
this road?
I.G.:
At no point,
important point: that of having con-
at a very
vinced the Indians that they can do things. At

asked us,
"Can you do
it?"
didn't believe in ourselves,
we
"When
is
say to us,
can you?" Because the Indians
finally believe in
individual thinks he won't do
capable, one
if
must have
it,
he'll
never do
he has countless
faith in oneself.
believe we've acquired faith in ourselves.
provided this
faith, I've
faith.
give.
It
it.
talents.
Even if he's
To become
Well, as a nation,
And
like to
think
also like to think that by providing
focused their pride.
something you
say focused because pride isn't
doesn't even break out suddenly;
feeling that grows very slowly, very confusedly.
grown
Oh, the word
so important for a people, for an individual! If an
highly intelligent, even
I've
people
we
we could do
"Can you?" They
themselves, they believe they can do things.
"when"
first
kept silent because
didn't believe that
Today people no longer
things.
say,
And we
Our
it's
pride has
though others don't underand underestimate it. You've never been very generous, you Westerners, toward us Indians. You should have
stand
in the last twenty-five years,
it
seen that things were changing, albeit slowly.
You should
Gandhi
Indira
169
Not much, but
have seen that something was happening.

something.
O.F.:
Have you really not also given your people

Gandhi? You yourself are so proud.
I.G.:
No.
O.F.:
Of
On
Mrs.
the contrary, I'm not. No.
course you are. Wasn't
an act of pride
it
to refuse the aid
you during the famine of 1966?
the world offered

a ship
pride,
loaded with grain, with food, that never
And
Naples.
remember
left
the port of
everything spoiled, while the people of India
were dying.
I.G.:
never heard about
But
true that
it's
And
Yes,
And
me,
it
had
happened by
"no" exploded
that
to
make myself the

to
help
We
I
want
didn't
know.
us
It
wasn't
itself, all
it.
my
that
of a sudden.
all
over India, in an act of
Then even
the political parties,
us.
repeat,
always
when we
interpreter of that no, repeat
And
it.
it
was hard
for you,
it
to those
understand.
Sometimes we hurt one another
to hurt you.
I
understand. But you must also understand
undervalued, underestimated, not believed. Even
believed,
you didn't believe
obtained our freedom.

to
bet-
it.
possible to fight without violence?
mocracy
it's
be taken for a nation of beggars.
think you were hurt by
without realizing
I.e.:
true.
It's
the
it
believe
was
refused
refused foreign aid.
of hunger than
who wanted
O.F.:
that the ship
of them, even the deputies in Parliament, said no:
ter to die
know
pride that surprised even me.

all
didn't
of a sudden inscriptions appeared on walls. Signs ap-
all
peared.
sail
personal decision,
said no.
No,
it.
otherwise wouldn't have

whole country
however was
loaded and ready to
You
work with an
said,
"
us.
"How
illiterate
You
said,
"How
is
it
But without violence we

is
people
hunger?" But with that people we made
it
possible for de-
who
are dying of
democracy work.
You said, "Planning is something for communist countries;

democracy and planning don't go together!" But, with all the
errors we committed, our plans succeeded. Then we announced that there'd be no more starvation in India. And you
responded,
"Impossible.
You'll
never succeed!" Instead
we
succeeded; today in India no one dies of hunger any more;
lyo
food production
exceeds consumption. Finally
far
ised to limit the birth rate.
And
you
this
we prom-
really didn't believe;
you smiled scornfully. Well, even in this things have gone

The fact is that we have grown by over seventy millions
well.
but
in ten years,
many
O.F.:
we have grown
also true that
it's
Often through dreadful methods,
Do you
approve of
than
ing gi\'en
woman
Most of our
epics
woman
myself, in my
when the population was low, the bless"May you have many children."
was,
and
many
children hasn't declined.
heart, say that people
dren they want. But
it's
should have
a mistaken
idea,
must protect
we must
families,
like
and
ideas that go back thousands of years,
We
and the idea
literature stress this wish,
should have
that a
of men.
like the sterilization
Mrs. Gandhi?
that,
I.G.: In India's distant past,
out.
less
other countries, including the countries of Europe.
it
all
the chil-
many
of our
must be rooted
protect children,
who
and should be loved, should be taken

care of physically and mentally, and should not be brought
have inalienable
rights
Do you know
into the world only to suffer.

cently,
that,
until re-
poor people brought children into the world
for the
making use of them? But how can you change,

by force or all of a sudden, an age-old habit? The only way is
to plan births, by one means or another. And the sterilization
of men is one method of birth control. The surest, most radical method. To you it seems dreadful. To me it seems that,
properly applied, it's by no means dreadful. I see nothing
wrong in sterilizing a man who has already brought eight or
sole purpose of
ten children into the world. Especially
if it
helps those eight or
ten children to live better.

O.F.:
I.G.:
Have you ever been

No, never.
do what
I've
a feminist, Mrs.
never had the need
wanted.
On
the other hand,
considered the fact of being a
She had her

almost
all
the street.
Gandhi?
to; I've
reasons. In her day
woman
women
always been able to
my mother
was. She
a great disadvantage.
lived in seclusion
in
Indian states they couldn't even show themselves on
Muslim women had
to
sheet that covers even the eyes.

in the doli, a
go out
in
purdah, that heavy
Hindu women had
to
go out
kind of closed sedan chair like a catafalque.
mother always
told
me
My
about these things with bitterness and
Gandhi
Indira
She was the
rage.
two
oldest of
her age. She

and then all of a
They had forced on her her "woman's
to the age of ten, like a wild colt,
sudden that was over.
destiny" by saying, "This
worthy of
At
isn't
done,
this isn't
good, this
isn't
a lady."
moved
a certain point the family
woman
and two brothers, and
sisters
who were about
she grew up with her brothers,
grew up,
171
to Jaipur,
where no
could avoid the doli or purdah. They kept her
house from morning
to night, either
in the
cooking or doing noth-
She hated doing nothing, she hated to cook. So she

became pale and ill, and far from being concerned about her
health, my grandfather said, "Who's going to marry her now?"
So my grandmother waited for my grandfather to go out, and
ing.
my mother
then she dressed
My
with her brothers.
my mother
me
told
as a
man and
her go out riding
knew about it, and

smile. The memory of
the story without a
these injustices never
let
grandfather never
left
her.
Until the day she died,
my
mother continued to fight for the rights of women. She joined

all the women's movements of the time; she stirred up a lot of
revolts. She was a great woman, a great figure. Women today
would like her immensely.
O.F.: And what do you think of them, Mrs. Gandhi? Of their liberation
I.G.:
movement,
think
rights of
it's
mean.
good. Good.
Because, you see, until today the
people have always been put forward by a few individ-
name of the masses. Today instead people

no longer want to be represented; each wants to speak for himself and participate directly
it's the same for the Negroes, for
the Jews, for women. So not only Negroes and Jews, but also
women are part of a great revolt of which one can only approve. Women sometimes go too far, it's true. But it's only
when you go too far that others listen. This is also something
uals acting in the
I've
learned from experience. Didn't they perhaps give us the
vote because
women
the reason.
In India
men
It's
too far? Yes,
in
a reason that also has to
women
even
emerged
we went
the Western world,
have no other choice. In India, no.
in
have never been
in hostile
the most distant past,
as a leader,
And
do with
I'll
explain
my own
case.
competition with
every time a
woman
perhaps as a queen, the people accepted
172
As something normal and not exceptional.
her.
symbol of strength
forget that in India the
goddess Shakti. Not only that
is
that. In the
got our independence,
women
revolutions have always been
Now we come
you
For
find herself
me
men and by
no one forgot
have participated,
made by men
And
more
here's the
at ease
men
with
first:
but
yes,
alone.
Mrs. Gandhi.
to the personal questions,
I'm ready to ask them.
I.G.:
the
Western world, on the other hand, nothing of the
kind has ever happened
O.F.:
not
the struggle for independence
here has been conducted in equal measure by
women. And when we
Let's
woman:
Does
or with
Now
woman
women?
a
like
treat one and the other in

same way. As persons, that is, not as men and
women. But, even here, you have to consider the fact that I've
it's
absolutely the
same
exactly the
had
a very special education, that I'm the
like
my
father
and
woman
like
my
daughter of
mother.
grew up
man
like a
boy, also because most of the children
who came
were boys. With boys
ran races, and wrestled.
climbed
trees,
to
our house
At the
I had no complexes of envy or inferiority toward boys.
same time, however, I liked dolls. I had many dolls. And you
know how I played with them? By performing insurrections,
assemblies, scenes of arrest.
My
dolls
were almost never babies
men and women who attacked barracks and

ended up in prison. Let me explain. Not only my parents but
the whole family was involved in the resistance
my grandfather and grandmother, my uncles and aunts, my cousins of
to
be nursed but
both sexes. So ever so often the police came and took them
away, indiscriminately. Well, the
my
father
and mother, both
both an uncle and an aunt,
on men and
women
my
fact that they arrested
both
grandfather and grandmother,
made me accustomed
to looking
with the same eyes, on an absolute plane
of equality.
O.F.:
I.G.:
And
Yes,
girl.
then there's that story about Joan of Arc,

it's
I
went
I
true.
to France.
was
isn't
there?
my dream
as a little
discovered her toward the age of ten or twelve,
recall that she
me.
true that Joan of Arc
It's
wanted
to
don't
remember where
read about
when
her, but
immediately took on a definite importance for

sacrifice my life for my country. It seems like
Indira
and
foolishness
yet
engraved forever on our

O.F.:
I.e.:
173
what happens when we're children
Gandhi
Yes indeed. And I'd like to understand what

you what you are, Mrs. Gandhi.
The
suffered since
privilege
was
a child.
my
in
sometimes wonder
it
that's
made
me
did to
were bursting
to
have lived
young people today aren't

If you only knew
us.
that house where the police
if
in
everyone away!
in to take
have led
generation have had this
deprived of the dramas that shaped
what
is
a great privilege to
It's
and many people
difficult life,
it
had, the difficulties, the hardships, the pain I've
I've
life
is
lives.
certainly didn't have
happy and serene childhood. I was a thin, sickly, nervous

little girl. And after the police came, I'd be left alone for weeks,
months,
to get along as best
along by myself.
I
was eight years
between
India
began
learned very soon to get
in Europe, when
was already on the move
by myself,
At that age
old.
and
could.
to travel
Switzerland
Switzerland,
France and England. Administering
my own
and
France,
finances like an
adult.
People often ask me:
Your
Who
has influenced you the most?
Mahatma Gandhi?
father?
my
Yes,
damentally influenced by them, by the
me
infused in
who
ther,
my
my
right to say that
and
it
from Mahatma Gandhi. But
my
the friends
me
anything on
It
with
my mother
us.
It
was
all
or the
one ever indoctrinated me.
of them;
much
who
time
to be
didn't have
How much
I.G.:
Oh,
yes!
my
father cared
courageous."
But he ne\er said
it.
He
did something difficult or
O.F.:
just
won
you must have loved
My
father
was
always discovered things for
I've
about courage, physical courage as well.
spised those
want you
it
or
was
fact that
myself, in marvelous freedom. For instance,

very
Mahatma
no one ever imposed

impose himself on the others. No
was the very
or tried to
fa-
not
say whether
father or
who were
complete thing.
it's
me more than others,

my personality was
father influenced
wouldn't be able to
formed more by
of equality they
comes from my
obsession for justice
in turn got
choices were fun-
spirit
a saint.
to
He
me,
de"I
smiled with pride every

a race
with the boys.
that fiither!
He was
the closest thing to a
174
you can
saint that
normal man. Because he was so
find in a
good. So incredibly, unbearably good.
and
as a child,
think I'm
Oh, he wasn't
least.
He was
word.
India
always defended him,
defending him
politician,
no sense of the
in
his policies at
sustained in his work only by a blind faith in
We
in
such an obsessive way by the
fu-
understood each other.
O.F.:
And Mahatma Gandhi?
I.G.:
lot
at all
he was preoccupied
ture of India.
still
of mythology arose after his death. But the fact remains
that he
was an exceptional man,
mendous
intuition for people,
He
right.
said that the
first
and
terribly intelligent,
a great instinct for
with
tre-
what was
president of India ought to be a
He was so against the class system and the oppression of women that an untouchable woman
became for him the epitome of purity and benediction. I
began to associate with him when he came and went in our
house together with my father and mother he was on the executive committee. After independence I worked with him a
lot
in the period when there were the troubles between
Hindus and Muslims, he assigned me to take care of the
Muslims. To protect them. Ah, yes, he was a great man.
However
between me and Gandhi there was never the
understanding there was between me and my father. He was
always talking of religion. ... He was convinced that was
right.
The fact is, we young people didn't agree with him
on many things.
O.F.: Let's go back to you, Mrs. Gandhi, to your history as an unusual woman. Is it true that you didn't want to get married?
felt
I.G.: Yes. Until I was about eighteen, yes. But not because
like a suffragette, but because I wanted to devote all my energies to the struggle to free India. Marriage, I thought, would
have distracted me from the duties I'd imposed on myself. But
was about eighlittle by little I changed my mind, and when
teen,
began to consider the possibility of getting married. Not
to have a husband, but to have children. I always wanted to
have children
if it had been up to me, I would have had
harijan
an untouchable.
girl,
my husband who wanted only two.

you something else. The doctors advised me not
have even one. My health was still not good, and they said
eleven.
And
to
It
was
I'll
tell
Gandhi
Indira
pregnancy might be
that
maybe
wouldn't have got married. But that diagnosis pro-
voked me,
if
not to have children?
want you
would
protect
me
a little
if
being
remaining pregnant. All
succeed
in
weight.
And
started
me what
to tell
were
do you think
don't want to
They shrugged
order to have children!"
in
shoulders and grumbled that perhaps

that
"Why
answered,
can't have children;
do
to
me.
infuriated
it
I'm getting married
hear that
have
they hadn't said that to me,
If
fatal.
175
right,
put on weight
to
so thin,
their
would never
I'll put on
said,
having massages, taking cod-liver
oil,
much. But I didn't even gain an ounce. I'd

made up my mind that on the day the engagement was announced I'd be fatter, and I didn't gain an ounce. Then I went
and eating twice
as
Mussoorie, which
to
instructions;
tors'
a health resort,
is
invented
weight. Just the opposite of what
problem of keeping slim.

Yes,
I've
realized
even showed
it's
manage.
And,
that.
No one
Mahatma Gandhi
.
now.
I'd like
Now
don't
gained
have the
know
if
not mistaken,
I'm
if
you
wasn't happy about
it.
it,
As
it.
as
for
my
father
people say, but he
suppose because the fathers of only
daughters would prefer to see them get married as
Anyway
you
wanted that marriage, no one. Even
not true that he opposed
wasn't eager for
sible.
by getting married.
it
indeed.
Yes,
I.e.:
ignored the doc-
regime and
determined woman.
realize I'm a
O.F.:
Still
and
my own
like to think
it
was
for that reason.
late as pos-
My
fiance,
you see, belonged to another religion. He was a Parsi. And this

was something nobody could stand all of India was against
us. They wrote to Gandhi, to my father, to me. Insults, death
threats. Every day the postman arrived with an enormous sack
and dumped the letters on the floor. We even stopped reading
them; we let a couple of friends read them and tell us what
was
into
in
them. "There's
who wants to chop you both

someone who's ready to marry you
a fellow
pieces. 1 here's
little
even though he already has
Hindu." At
troversy
I've just
imploring people
minded.
In
found an
to leave
any case,
He says at least he's a

Mahatma got into the con-
a wife.
certain point the
article
him
in
he wrote
in his
newspaper,
peace and not be so narrow-
married Mr. Feroze Gandhi.
Once
176
an idea
get
my
change
O.F.: Let's
my
in
hope the same thing
married an ItaHan
I.G.:
head, no one in the world can
happen when your son Rajiv
didn't
girl.
Times have changed;
two of them didn't have
the
through the same anguish
me
make me
mind.
One
did.
day
to
go
1965 Rajiv wrote
in
from London, where he was studying, and informed me,
"You're always asking

girl,
and so
proposed
when
yet,
went
to India,
England,
I've
met
So we waited
live in India.
and
to India,
Sonia
And when
her.
still
Rajiv returned
think about her in the
until she
for her to
was sure she'd
months
like to
be twenty-one, and she
and we announced
said she liked India,
the engagement, and two
have a special
But she couldn't get married
said yes.
was twenty-one, and
until she
wife.
girl
whether
girls,
met a special girl. I haven't

I want to marry." A year later,
"Do you
asked him,
about
but she's the

to
same way?" And he
came
me
Well,
forth.
were husband and
later they
almost completely an Indian by now, even
is
though she doesn't always wear
saris.
But even
I,
when
was
student in London, often wore Western clothes, and yet I'm

the most Indian Indian
you only knew, for instance,

Do you know I'm
twice a grandmother? Rajiv and Sonia have had a boy and a
girl. The girl was just born.
O.F.: Mrs. Gandhi, your husband has now been dead for some
years. Have you ever thought of remarrying?
I.G.: No, no. Maybe I would have considered the problem if I'd
met someone with whom I'd have liked to live. But I never
met this someone and
No, even if I had met him, I'm
how much
know.
sure
If
enjoy being a grandmother!
Why
wouldn't have got married again.
now
married
that
my
life
so full?
is
No, no,
should
get
out of the
it's
question.
O.F.: Besides
I.G.:
can't imagine
you
as a housewife.
You're wrong! Oh, you're wrong!
was
a perfect housewife.
Being a mother has always been the job

lutely.
fice
To
I
savored every minute of those years.
was crazy about

bringing
them
my
up.
sons and
Today
Abso-
liked best.
be a mother, a housewife, never cost
me
My
any
sons
sacri-
...
think I've done a super job in
in fact they're
two
fine
and serious
Gandhi
Indira
men. No,
women who,
never understood
I've
177
because of their
children, pose as victims and don't allow themselves any other
not at
activities. It's
hard to reconcile the two things
all
when my
organize your time intelligently. Even

little,
was working.
Council
was
Child Welfare.
for
four years old at
worker
a welfare
tell
I'll
you
day the mother of one of his
"Oh,
said in a sugary voice,
little
was only
One
to kindergarten.
came
friends
must be
it
for the Indian
a story. Rajiv
that time, and was going
you
if
sons were
and
to see us
you
so sad for
to
have
no time to spend with your little boy!" Rajiv roared like a lion:
"My mother spends more time with me than you spend with
your little boy, see! Your little boy says you always leave him
alone so you can play bridge!" I detest women who do nothing
and then play bridge.
O.F.:
So there was
I.G.:
long period in your
Didn't you believe in
politics.
Politics.
What we
You
see,
my
did during
when you
life
stayed out of
any more?
it
depends on what kind of
it
father's generation
was
politics.
And
a duty.
it
was the conquest of freedom.

Don't think that
What we do now, on the other hand
I'm crazy about this kind of politics. It's no accident that I've
was beautiful because
goal
its
done everything to keep my sons out of it, and so far I've succeeded. After independence I retired immediately from politics. My children needed me, and I liked my job as a social
said, "I've done my share. Leave the rest to the
worker.
went back into politics only when it was clear that
others."
was
things weren't going as they should have in my party.
I
always arguing,
the leaders
it
was
in
had known since
don't
challenge, so
rary,
and
my
you
tried.
father,
with my
was a child
But
thought
who had
could
it
him,
O.F.:
And
who
are wrong.
say
When
them.
never
never tried to involve
really didn't suspect the
yet everything
and one day,
Go
resist
was something tempo-
it
it
in his
was her father
he asked
consequences.
began because of him.
me
was her father who
prepared her for the post of prime minister,

her,
things, correct
Well,
try?"
thought so too. People
who launched
father, with
them exclaimed, "You do nothing but
you think you can correct
why
activities,
argued with everyone
1955, one of
criticize! If
ahead,
me
to
help
lyS
He was prime
LG.: Obviously.
home,
to
minister,
and
to take care of his
my
automatically meant to have
be his hostess,
meet people, to know their games, their

secrets. It also meant to fall sooner or later into the trap of
direct experience. And this came in 1957, a weekend when
my father had to go north for a rally. I went with him, as
hands
in politics
to
when we got to Chamba, we discovered that the

who had charge of his schedule had also set up a meeting
for Monday morning. So if my father
for him someplace else
had given up the rally in Chamba, we'd have lost the elections
in Chamba; if he gave up the one in the other city, which was
always, and
lady
near Pathankot, we'd lose the elections there. ''And

I
suggested.
two places
had
to
He answered
was impossible.
have
I'd
was already two o'clock Monday morning. So

pity, it seemed to me
it
you
It
was from
to Pathankot.
You'll arrive in time.

rally. It
was
still
my
woke
father.
up,
It
said,
found
a note
"A plane
will
From there it's only three hours by car.

Good luck." I arrived in time and held
a success
the beginning of
Were you
when
five-thirty,
under the door.
O.F.:
it
cover three hundred miles of bad road through the
good idea." At
the
went?"
good night and murmured, "A
said
take
if
spoke, and explained that you couldn't be in
once?"
at
And
hills.
''If
and
was asked
That was
for others.
everything.
married
at that time, or
were you already sepa-
rated?
I.G.:
But
always stayed married to
day he died!
truth
My
is
otherwise and
husband
my
lived in
husband! Always, until the
we were
not true that
It's
why
not say
My
Lucknow.
separated! Look, the

for
it
once and
for all?
of
father lived in Delhi,
and Lucknow and

naturally, if my husband needed me on days when I was in
Delhi, I ran back to Lucknow. But if it was my father who
needed me, on days when I was in Lucknow, I ran back to
course.
So
Delhi. No,
shuttled between Delhi
it
wasn't a comfortable situation. After
quite a distance between Delhi and
my husband
quarreled a
got angry.
lot.
It's
equally pigheaded
I
like to
And he
true.
We
quarreled.
We
all there's
.
yes,
We
quarreled.
were two equally strong types,
neither of
think those quarrels
Lucknow. And
us
wanted
made
to give in.
And
us better, that they enliv-
Gandhi
Indira
179
ened our
life,
because without them we would have had a nor-
mal
yes,
but banal and boring.
life,
mal, banal, and boring
After
life.
We
didn't deserve a nor-
ours had not been a
all,
...
forced marriage and he had chosen me.
one
the
know
to
if
him
loved
engaged but
wasn't easy
rather than
choosing him.
as
something great and

It
mean he was
... don't
much as he loved me when we became
Then love grew, in me as well, it became
me
choose
wouldn't have been easy
you must understand him!
well,
him
for
be
to
for
my
son-in-law!
father's
too was a deputy in Parliament! At a certain point, he gave
He
Lucknow and
decided to leave
house, with
him and me.
It
anybody. Let's not forget that he

Delhi, in
live in
my
in.
father's
But, being a deputy in Parliament,
how could he meet people in the house of the prime minister?

He realized that right away, and so he had to find himself
another small house, and this wasn't convenient either. To be
a little
.
little
there, a
little
with us and a
little
alone.
No, life wasn't easy for him either.

Gandhi, have you ever had regrets? Were you ever
here and a
O.F.: Mrs.
afraid
of giving in?
I.G.:
No. Never. Fear, any
And
everything
In doing
it,
Monkey
plunged
I've
Whether when
was
Brigade, or
children, or
fear,
done,
I've
when
is
in
do
it.
headlong, always believing in
it.
a child
when
was
Like regrets.
a waste of time.
done because
I've
wanted
to
and fought the British in the

was a girl and wanted to have
woman and
devoted myself to
my
making my husband angry. Each time I stayed involved all the way in my decision, and took the consequences.
Even if I was fighting for things that didn't concern India. Oh,
I remember how angry I was when Japan invaded China! I immediately joined a committee to collect money and medifather,
cines,
immediately signed up
for the International Brigade,
plunged headlong into propaganda against Japan.

son
... A
per-
me
dosn't have fear first and regrets afterward.

you haven't made mistakes. There are those who say
having won this war, no one will be able to dislodge you
like
O.F.: Besides,
that,
and
I.G.:
you'll stay in
power
for at least twent\' years.
instead haven't the slightest idea
don't even care to know, becuse
how
long
don't care
if
I'll
I
stay,
and
remain prime
l8o
minister. I'm only interested in doing a good job as long as I'm
capable and for as long as

tired
work doesn't
But nothing
it's
getting bored that's tiring.
and no one can predict what
in the near or distant future. I'm
know
people,
tire
lasts forever,
me
happen to
Not a bit.
don't get tired. I'm certainly not
I'll
will
not ambitious.
astonish everyone by talking like this, but
Honors have never tempted me and I've never

sought them. As for the job of prime minister, I like it, yes.
But no more than I've liked other work that I've done as an
it's
God's
adult.
cian.
truth.
while ago
little
instead, think
I,
said that
my
am. But not
terested in a political career
father
was not
a politi-
being in-
in the sense of
rather in the sense that
necessary to strive to build a certain India, the India
The
India
and
less
want,
poor
never
I'll
India,
one
tire
of repeating,
it
want.
more
is
think
just
entirely free of foreign influences. If
thought the country was already marching toward these objec-
up
tives, I'd give
politics
immediately and
retire as
prime min-
ister.
O.F.:
To do what?
LG.: Anything. As
always
try to
only job in
village
me
ested
my
I'll
As
fall in
And
well.
Or
very
else
much,
I'll
could
live
my
to taking care of children.
Or
it's
go back
to studying history
Or
else
in a
country
else
I'll
a science that's always inter-
also in relation to the
degree in history.
do and
I'm not governing
When
go back
love with anything
so? Being prime minister isn't the
I'm concerned,
far as
satisfied.
studying anthropology
start
erty.
it
life!
and be
any more,
told you,
do
...
cinated by the tribal communities.
problem of pov-
at
Oxford
don't know,
I'm
took
fas-
might busy myself with
them.
Listen,
certainly won't have an
doesn't frighten me, even

ficulties.
empty
life!
And
the future
threatens to be full of other dif-
I'm trained to difficulties; difficulties can't be elimi-
nated from
possible
them.
It's
When
it's
life.
Individuals will always have them, countries
have them.
will always
if
if it
The only
overcome them, otherwise

all
right to fight, yes, but
is
to
accept them,
come to terms with

only when it's possible.
to
compromise, withand without complaining. People who complain
impossible,
out resisting
thing
it's
better to stoop to

Gandhi
Indira
When
are selfish.
Now
more.
was young,
181
was very
come
happy woman?
the victim, and I'm always ready to

O.F.:
I.G.:
Mrs. Gandhi, are you a

I
Happiness
don't know.
there's
no such thing
moments
say
if
If
reason
and
I.e.:
New
view
There are only
And if
known ecstasy,
because those who can
to ecstasy.
Yes, I've
it
last
mean
long and
is
seldom
instead an ordinary
contented. Not satisfied
fairly
word
use only in reference to
satisfied for
my
goes up the mountain,
the great irritation of
my
country. For this
my
choose the foot-
bodyguards.
you, Mrs. Gandhi.

you.
And
best wishes.
you an easy time, but
may
I'm
life.
go on taking difficult paths, and between a paved road
To
Thank
Thank
is
never be
a footpath that
path.
O.F.:
I'll
by happiness you
contented. Satisfied
and
be able to say
contentment, then yes
countr>',
ecstasy.
not any
don't play
a fleeting point of
But ecstasy doesn't
are ver>' few.
ever repeated.
such
from contentment
mean
a blessing to
it's
it
is
terms with
to
as continual happiness.
of happiness
by happiness you
and
now
selfish,
don't get upset by unpleasant things,
always say,
do not wish
wish you that whatever difficulty you
have, you will overcome
Delhi, February 1972
As
it.
Ali Bhutto
The
was disconcerting.
invitation
and there seemed no way

for
ist
Rawalpindi
soon
as
to
It
came from
account
as possible.
dreams of being summoned
at
for
it.
It
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto,
asked only that
you go looking for them, run away or say no. But illogic
of dreams and leads to suspicion. Why did Bhutto want
To
entrust
me
with a message for Indira Gandhi?
having portrayed her with esteem and sympathy?

esis
sian diplomats.
his
enemy
The second
leave
for that there
is
the stuff
me?
to see
To punish me for
The first hypoth-
was immediately discarded. Bhutto had no need of
communicate with
wondered why. Every journalleast once by those who, when

I
a courier to
were Swiss and Rus-
hypothesis was soon discarded. Bhutto
has the reputation of being a civilized person, and civilized people

don't usually
intended to
kill
let
their invited guests.
me
ment. And, instead,
my
The
interview him, filled

this
was
just
third hypothesis, that he
me
with proper astonish-
what Bhutto had
in
mind,
after
on the president of Bangladesh, the unfortunate

Mujibur "Mujib" Rahman. As I found out when my curiosity won
reading
out over
my
accepting
it,
article
suspicion and
I
let
him know
decided to accept the invitation. But

that being his guest
would not keep
in
me
from writing about him with the same independence of judgment

that I applied to everyone without distinction and that no amount
of courtesy or flattery would ever be able to buy me off. Bhutto an-
Ali Bhutto
swered: certainly,
the
all right.
And
this
183
gave
me my
first
impression of
man.
The man
is
unpredictable, bizarre, carried away by whims, by
And,
strange decisions.
let's
of an astute, foxy kind,
same time nourished by
face
bom
it,
highly intelligent. Intelligence
charm,
to
culture,
to confuse,
memory,
great urbanity. At the Rawalpindi airport
while
As well
flair.
was met by two
at the
by a
as
officials
who announced to me with considerable emotion that the president

would receive me in an hour. It was ten in the morning, and I had
had no sleep
tested;
that
ing
about forty-eight hours. Not
for
needed
good bath and
would have been an

till
seven-thirty in
for supper,
insult.
good
Not
sleep.
to
him.
an hour,
in
pro-
Well, to someone else
He
put off the meet-
the evening, adding that he was expecting
me
and since intelligence combined with courtesy is the

it was inevitable that this meeting
best instrument for seduction,
should be cordial.
Bhutto, wreathed in smiles, greeted
tall,
stocky, a
looked
his
little
banker who wants to get

He seemed older than his
like a
bank.
beginning
me
to
with open arms. He was

and delicate feet, and he
you to open an account in
stout for such thin legs
forty-four
years.
eyebrows, his face looked heavy: heavy cheeks, heavy

eyelids.
He was
go bald; his remaining hair was gray. Under his thick

lips,
heavy
mysterious sadness was locked in his eyes. There was
something shy about
his smile.
many powerful leaders, he too is weakened and crippled by

shyness. He is also many other things and, as with Indira Gandhi,
all of them in conflict among themselves. The more you study
Like
him, the more you remain uncertain, confused. Like
prism turn-
and at the
same moment that he gives in to your scrutiny, he withdraws. So
you can define him in countless ways and all of them are true: liberal and authoritarian, fascist and communist, sincere and a liar.
He is undoubtedly one of the most complex leaders of our time and
the only interesting one his countr>' has so far produced. The only
one, moreover, capable of saving it, at least for a while. Anyone
will tell you there is no alternative to Bhutto. If Bhutto goes, Pakistan will be erased from the map.
In this sense, he reminds you less of Indira Gandhi than of King
ing
on
a pivot,
he
is
forever offering you a different face,
104
Hussein. Like Hussein, he

born. Like Hussein he
is
is
in
accused of leading a nation
artificially
an earthenware pot squeezed
among
iron pots: the Soviet Union, India, China, America. Like Hussein,
he
is
determined not
trapeze
to yield,
and
resists
with the courage of a
with no net to protect him. But in another sense, he
artist
reminds you of John Kennedy. Like Kennedy, he grew up

kind of wealth for which nothing
is
quest of political power, cost what
it
in the
impossible, not even the con-
may. Like Kennedy, he had a
comfortable, happy, privileged childhood. Like Kennedy, he began
power very
his rise to
The fact
He studied
early.
he comes from
is
at
a family of aristocrats
Berkeley and then
at
more than
ternational law. At slightly
thirty,
he was one of Ayub
Khan's ministers, though he detested him. At

forty,
he was one of Agha
and landowners.
Oxford, taking his degree in in-
Muhammad
though he despised him. He arrived
slightly
Yahya Khan's
at the
less
than
ministers,
presidency with painful
patience, without letting himself be bothered by the bad odor of

certain associates.
Power is a more overwhelming passion than love. And those who

power have strong stomachs, and even stronger noses. They
don't mind bad odors. Bhutto didn't mind them ever. He loves
love
power.
It
is
response to
tell
difficult to guess the nature of this

it
is
power. His
own
ambiguous, he warns you against politicians who
the truth or exhibit a boy-scout morality. Listening to him, you
are almost led to believe that his ambition

really intends to build a sincere
then you
visit his
is
noble one, that he
and disinterested socialism. But
splendid library in Karachi, and discover that in
the place of honor are sumptuous volumes on Mussolini and Hitler,
bound
From
in silver.
you conclude that

idle curiosity.
the tenderness with
their presence
Doubt and anger
is
which they
are kept,
not due to a book collector's
arise
in you.
You
ask him,
and
Sukarno and Nasser: two individuals

perhaps moved by good intentions but certainly not two liberals.
learn that his true friends were
be exalted
dream to become dictator, to

one day by sumptuous volumes bound in silver? Mind
you, this
the kind of question asked by Westerners ignorant of the
You're
left
is
perplexed.
Is it
his secret
tragedy of a country where freedom, democracy, and political opposition have never
had any meaning and have always been
placed by hunger, injustice, and humiliation. But
it
is still
re-
a valid
Ali Bhutto
ominous
question, as
185
as the expression that fires
up
his gaze
when
something displeases him.
The
the
following interview was conducted in five sessions, during
days that
six
through
recorded on tape,
The
in
first
remained
my
Rawalpindi, the evening of
The
the plane that took us to Lahore.
The
fourth and
fifth in
Karachi.
the table or en route, and
him from my
adhering
strictly
to his
a trip
words
as
thus a mosaic of five different conversations.
is
it
and followed him on
his guest
few provinces. While
if
arrival.
The second on
third in Hala, a city in Sind.
was always
wanted
to,
whether
at his side,
at
could do a portrait of
diary of those days. Bhutto, dressed in Pakistani fash-
pajamas and sandals,
ion, in gray-green
who harangues
the crowd
Sanghar where several years ago he escaped an assassination attempt, and the crowd is sullen; he shouts hoarsely into the microin
phone
in
Urdu, then
in Sindhi,
throws out his arms, offers himself
with audacious insolence to other possible gunshots.
Bhutto the demagogue, avid
for
Bhutto making people wait for hours

city notables are there
is
night
when he
beautiful carpets,
him
side
most
and
the only
in a
but he lingers in his
finally arrives,
like a
courtyard in Hala; the
room
advancing
a well-calculated provocation.
so
Thus
with a haughty signal of his finger;
he
is
writing.
It
prince on the
like a
sits down and has me sit bemany mustachioed men, al-
prince he
woman among
seated, he receives in au-
dience members of his party, governors,
man
And this is
Or else
applause and authority.
one by one,
end he receives a poor
separatists,
at the
with a goat covered with tassels to be sacrificed in his honor.
And this is the aristocratic Bhutto, the Muslim Bhutto that no

amount of Western culture will ever basically change it is no accident that he has two wives. Or else Bhutto flying in a military
on his head a cap given him by

During the flight he gazes with tears in
helicopter, uncomfortable, wearing
Chou
En-lai
his talisman.
his eyes at the dry uncultivated
fields,
the
mud
huts where the
peasants live a prehistoric existence. All of a sudden he clenches his

fists
and murmurs,
"I
must succeed,
must succeed." And
this
is
the Marxist Bhutto, submerged up to his neck in the mirage of
making Pakistan
Bhutto
who
less
receives
unhappy and
me
in his
less
houses
hunger-stricken. Finally, the

in
Karachi and Rawalpindi:
explaining himself, pleading his cause, ruthlessly attacking Indira
Gandhi, Mujib Rahman, Yahya Khan. His houses
are furnished
l86
taste, old Persian rugs and precious enamels, air conand photographs with inscriptions by his most powerful
with exquisite
ditioning,
Mao
world colleagues, beginning with

Nusrat, a beautiful
son comes
in,
woman
a lively
At dinner we
Tse-tung.
perhaps eat caviar; also present
drink wine,
his
is
second wife,
with pleasant manners, and
boy with long
little
And
hair.
later his
this
is
the
European Bhutto. Bhutto the brilliant speaker,

author of books, who knows the English language better than Urdu
and evokes the sympathy of any Westerner. A rash conclusion. As
modern,
refined,
Walter Cronkite said when
asked
him about Richard Nixon, Lynleaders he
don Johnson, Dwight Eisenhower, about the

viewed
a
in his
head of
long career
by seeing
state
moment you
Because the
him only
in
the
discover that he too
is
the virtues and defects and inconsistencies of a

like
him and
inter-
only a man, with
man, you
inevitably
forget the rest.
This interview with Bhutto also unleashed

a journalistic
had
You cannot judge

man. You shouldn't.
as a television reporter:
one
as in the case of Kissinger,
even international one. For

read that Indira called
just as
pandemonium. Not
but a diplomatic and
Bhutto had been offended
him an unbalanced man,
so Indira
fended to read that Bhutto called her a mediocre
woman
was
to
of-
with a
mediocre intelligence, a creature devoid of initiative and imagination, a
drudge without even half her
father's talent,
the idea of meeting her, of shaking her hand,
filled
and
said that
him with acute
had every reason to be offended. In

judging her, Bhutto had been heavy-handed and too guided by
hatred. I myself was actually embarrassed by it, and in my embarrassment had tried repeatedly to restrain him. ''Aren't you being a
disgust. Needless to say, Indira
little
excessive,
little
unjust?" But Bhutto had
not taken
my
on adding other perfidious

remarks that I had not published, and my censorship had not done
much good. The result was the dramatic, or rather ridiculous, consuggestion,
and indeed had
sequences that
insisted
involuntarily caused.
Bhutto and Indira were supposed
to
meet
at that time, to sign the
peace agreement between India and Pakistan. Alerted by certain

sentences reported in the New Delhi newspapers, Indira requested
the complete text of the interview and had
from Rome. Then she read
it
it
transmitted by cable
and announced that the meeting be-
Ali Bhutto
187
tween herself and the prime minister of Pakistan would not take
Bhutto
place.
sador to
Italy.
head and, not knowing where on earth
lost his
turn, turned to
me
me. He sought
He
see Haile Selassie.
me
traced
And
Addis Ababa, where
to
made
here he
to
out again, through his ambasI
had gone
to
the most extravagant request
of me.
I
must
write,
he
second
said, a
article
and say
that the interview
with him, Bhutto, had never taken place because

up.
was
to say that the
uttered by him, but rather those that,
thought he might
At
utter.
had dreamed
it
opinions about Indira were not opinions
first
in
my
imagination,
didn't think
had
had understood.
"What
did you say, Mr. Ambassador?" "I said you should write that
you invented everything, and particularly the part about Mrs.
Gandhi." "But are you crazy, Mr. Ambassador? Has your prime
minister gone crazy too?" "Miss Fallaci, you must understand, the
hundred million people depend on you, they're in your

him to go to hell. But Bhutto did not give
up and went on looking for me. Wherever I went I was pursued by
lives
of
six
hands."
cursed and told
who begged me
an important Pakistani
then reminded
in
my
me
hands. Vainly
my
replied that
to
disavow the interview,
hundred million people were

hands were too small to con-
that the lives of six
hundred million human beings, vainly I shouted that their

demand was absurd and insulting. The nightmare ended only when
Indira magnanimously decided to act as though Bhutto's error
had never happened. And the two of them met to sign the peace
tain six
accord.
It
was amusing
to
watch them on television while they shook
hands and exchanged smiles.

ironical. Bhutto's displayed
was triumphant and
Indira's smile
such discomfort
and-white screen, you seemed
that,
even on the black-
him blushing
to see
to the roots of
his hair.
ZULFIKAR ALI BHUTTO:

you. First of
all,
must
written the truth about
very
tell
you why
was so eager
because you're the only journalist
Mujib Rahman.
much. And then because
joyable to read that
suppression in Dacca.
look,
had something
to
to
enjoyed your
it
was
meet
who
much
has
article
less
en-
do with the March
100
ORIANA FALLACI: Something to do with? Mr. President, in Dacca

they come right out and say it was you who wanted the massacre. You who wanted the arrest of Mujib. And that for this
reason you stayed in the city until the morning of March 26.
Z.A.B.: To enjoy the spectacle from the windows of my suite on the
top floor of the Hotel Intercontinental, drinking whisky and
perhaps playing the lyre like Nero. But how dare they try to
discredit me by an incident so barbarous and stupid? The
whole business was conducted in such a stupid way. They let
all the leaders escape to India and then they took it out on the
poor wretches who counted for nothing. Only Mujib was arrested. Let's be logical. I would have done it with more intelligence, more scientifically, less brutally. Tear gas, rubber
bullets, and I would have arrested all the leaders. Oh, only a
disgusting drunkard like ex-President Yahya Khan could have
sullied himself with an operation carried out so badly and
bloodily.
Anyway, what interest would I have had in wanting such

Do you know that Yahya Khan's first victim was not
to have been Mujib but myself? Many people in my party
were in prison, and at the end of 1970, November 5, 1970, to
be exact, he had said to Mujib, "Should I arrest Bhutto or
madness?
why he
not?" Look, the only reason

that in
West
reversed his schedule was
Pakistan he couldn't control the situation as in
East Pakistan. Besides Mujib has never been intelligent

let
he
himself be backed into a corner.
But
to
surprise.
conclude, the tragedy of
Yahya Khan
March 25 caught me by
He had given me an
And, days later, General
fooled even me.
appointment
for the following day.
Mohd Umar
revealed to
me
that he'd resorted to this stratagem
Dacca and "see the efficiency of the army." I

give you my word of honor that all this is true.
O.F.: All right, Mr. President. But I wonder if history will ever have
the exact version of what happened that terrible night and in
the months that followed. Mujib Rahman
so that I'd stay in
Z.A.B.:
Mujib, as you've seen,
telling lies
it's
is
a congenital
liar.
something stronger than he.
He
can't help
Mujib
talks
at
random, depending on his mood and

mind. For instance, he says there were three million dead.
the disorders of his sick

Ali Bhutto
He's mad, mad!
And
they're
all
189
mad, the
press included,
who
repeat after him, 'Three million dead, three million dead!"
The
Indians had
the
man
out the figure of one million.
let
along and doubled
it.
Then
he'd done the
tripled
same
it.
It's
He came
a characteristic of
for the hurricane.
Look, ac-
cording to Indian journalists, the dead that night were between
and seventy thousand. According
sixty
to certain missionaries,
what I've been able

must have been something like fifty
thousand. Mind you, too many. Even if the action was morally justified. I'm not trying to minimize things; I'm trying to
bring them back to reality
there's quite a difference between
fifty thousand and three million.
The same goes for the refugees. Mrs. Gandhi says ten milthere were thirty thousand. According to
to find
out so
far,
there
lion.
It's
obvious she started with that figure in order
ize her offensive
vited the
Why
to legal-
and invade East Pakistan. But when we
United Nations
to
in-
check, the Indians were opposed.
were they opposed?
If
the
figure
were exact,
they
The fact is it's

not a question of ten million but of two. On the number of
dead may even be wrong, but not on the number of refugees.
We know who left the country. And many were Bengalis from
West Bengal, sent from Calcutta. It was she who sent them
Mrs. Gandhi. Since the Bengalis all look alike, who was to
shouldn't have been afraid of
its
being verified.
know?
And now
and
killed.
let's talk
about the other
don't believe
it.
women
story: the
raped
Certainly there was no lack of ex-
General Tikka Khan says that
months he
him directly.
He made his appeal with loudspeakers, and still he came to
know of only four cases. Shall we multiply by ten and make it
cesses, but
in
those
often invited the population to report abuses to
fort)'?
We're
still
by Mujib and
O.F.:
la
from the senseless figures spread around
far
Gandhi.
No, Mr. President.
Go
ahead and multiply by
even by ten thousand, and you'll come
thousand and
Mujib is talkrandom when he says three million dead, Tikka Khan is

joking when he says four cases. Mass atrocities took place, and
closer. If
ing at
how! I'm speaking

by the way, you
as
just
one who saw the corpses
in
Dacca.
And
used an awful expression, Mr. President.
190
You
"Morally
said
justifiable."
understand you? Did you really
was morally
Z.A.B.:
Or rather,
mean to say
"justified."
when
necessary. For instance, in the
can't build without destroying.
obliged to use force and

force and
justified?
Every government, every country, has the right
force
Did
that this massacre
kill.
Mao
kill.
To mention
To
name
to exercise
of unity.
You
build a country, Stalin was
Tse-tung was obliged
to use
only two recent cases, without rak-
ing over the whole history of the world. Yes, there are circum-
where
stances
In
March
and justified.
on the suppression of
out with such brutality on the
bloody suppression
justifiable
is
the unit)' of Pakistan depended
the secessionists. But to carry
it
people instead of on those responsible wasn't necessary. That's

not the way to convince poor people who've been told that
with the Six Points there'll be no more hurricanes, no more
no more hunger. I spoke out against such methods

more emphatically than anyone else, and when no one dared
floods,
do
O.F.
so.
Nevertheless you've
now
put Tikka Khan, the general
who
directed the massacre, at the head of the army. Right?

Z.A.B.:
Tikka Khan was
a soldier
doing
He
ders.
my
anyway
his
events
politics.
bad reputation
There's
ated.
only
one
picked
same
orders with the
nose in
stick his
came back by
to
precise or-
did what he was ordered to do, though he wasn't
always in agreement, and

follow
He went
a soldier's job.
East Pakistan with precise orders and
him because
discipline.
can't destroy the

for the events in
man
really
Yahya Khan. Both he and
And he
know
won't
he'll
try to
whole army, and

Dacca is exagger-
responsible
his advisers
for
those
were so drunk
with power and corruption they'd even forgotten the honor of

the army.
cars,
They thought of nothing but acquiring
beautiful
building beautiful homes, making friends with bankers,
and sending money abroad. Yahya Khan wasn't
interested in
the government of the country, he was interested in power for

its own sake and nothing else. What can you say of a leader
who starts drinking as soon as he wakes up and doesn't stop
until he goes to bed? You've no idea how painful it was to deal
with him. He was really Jack the Ripper.
Ali Bhutto
O.F.:
Where
is
191
What do you
he now, Yahya Khan?
intend to do
with him?
under house arrest in a bungalow near Rawalpindi, a

bungalow that belongs to the government. Yes, I have a big
problem on my hands with him. I've set up a war commission
Z.A.B.: He's
to study the responsibilities inherent in the recent conflict. I'm
waiting to see the results, and
commission
we
defeat
having
him
finds
suffered
won
is
guilty,
his
but
a war,
Gandhi can
won
she
thank Yahya Khan and his gang of

to get
lose
him
it,
task
The
trial.
rightly boast of
she should
of
first
it
made you
only
your temper.
In April, after that fine business in Dacca, he sent for
He
all
psychopaths. Even
illiterate
was an impossible
to reason
to decide. If the
think there'll be a
Mrs.
if
me
help
that'll
looked
of himself, by
satisfied, sure
He
the situation in hand.
Mujib but
me
offered
he
ticians are really finished,"
said.
arrest you,
a drink. "Well,
Then he
too was considered an agitator,
'Tm
ing against the unity of Pakistan.
Bhutto."
got so angry
me.
now convinced he had

you
poli-
said that not only
too was preach-
always under pressure to
lost all control.
answered
would not let myself be intimidated by him, that his

methods had led us to disaster; I threw away the glass of whisky
and left the room. There I was stopped by General Pirzada,
who took me by the arm. "No, come on, calm down, have a
seat, go back in."
calmed down and went back.
tried to
that
explain to
him
and Mujib: he was
O.F.:
a great difference
a secessionist
got nasty and
and
wasn't.
between
me
useless task.
me, he went on drinking, drinking.
Instead of listening to
Then he
was
that there
Mr. President, can we go back a moment and try to understand how you arrived at that terrible March, morally justifiable or not?
Z.A.B.:
Look
On
here.
with Mujib.
If
January 27
you wanted
had gone
Dacca
to
confer
with him, you
to make a pilgrimage to Dacca

he never condescended
come to Rawalpindi. went even though it was just that day
had
to
to
to discuss matters
that
my
ancestral
sister's
tomb
husband had
in
Larkana.
died; he
And my
was
sister
to
be buried
in the
was offended. In the

192
Mujib had obtained a majority in East Pakistan and

in West Pakistan. But now he was insisting
on the Six Points and we had to come to an agreement
Yahya Kahn was demanding that within four months we work
out the Constitution, otherwise the Assembly would be dissolved and new elections called. To make Mujib understand
elections,
I
had obtained one
this
was
a desperate undertaking
someone who
you
doesn't have them.
can't expect brains from
argued,
explained, and
he kept repeating dully and monotonously: 'The Six Points.
Do you
accept the Six Points?"
the second,
on
the third
Good
Lx)rd,
was even ready
on the
first,
would make
arrangements any way
fourth anticipated that each province

foreign trade
and foreign
What would happen
aid
its
own
liked.
it
to the sovereignty of the state, the unity
of the country? Besides that,
it
East Pakistan from
to separate
on
But the
to negotiate.
was known that Mujib wanted
West
Pakistan and that he'd
been keeping up connections with the Indians since 1966. So

in January our talks had been interrupted and we come to
March.
In the
told
me
middle of March, Yahya Khan came

he was going
to
Dacca
did
to
Karachi and
want to go too? Yes, I

to me. The telegram inI
Mujib were ready to talk

forming me that Mujib was ready to talk to me was sent from
Dacca by Yahya Khan himself. I left on March 19. On the
twentieth I met Yahya and on the twenty-first I met Mujib,
together with Yahya. A surprise: Mujib was all sweetness and
answered,
if
with Yahya. "I've come to reach an agreement with you,

Mr. President, and I want nothing to do with Mr. Bhutto. I'll
tell the press that I have met with the president and that Mr.
light
Bhutto was there by chance," he said
in a
ceremonious tone.
And Yahya: "No, no, Mujib. You must speak for yourself."
And Mujib: "So many people are dead in the hurricane, so
many people are dead." That's the way he is. All of a sudden a
on his sick mind, even a sentence that
do with what you're talking about, and he goes
sentence engraves
has nothing to
on repeating
tience.
How
it
itself
like
was
an obsession. At a certain point

responsible for the hurricane?
Had
lost paI
been
the one to send the hurricane? Mujib's answer was to get up
Ali Bhutto
193
and say that he had to leave to go to a funeral. And

it's not worth the trouble.
O.F.: Yes, it is. Please, Mr. President, go on.
Z.A.B.:
The
fact
is
when you
that
seems so incredible.
him
take
seriously.
up too,
want me
got
anteroom, though he didn't
oh,
about Mujib, everything
talk
how
don't understand
Well,
the world can
to escort
to.
him
In the
to the
anteroom
there were three people: Yahya's aide-de-camp, his military
and
secretary,
his
political
General Umar. Mujib
butcher.
"Go away, everybody go away! have to talk

The three of them went out. He sat down and
brother! We must come to an agreement,
began screaming,
to
Mr. Bhutto!"
"Brother,
then:
God, I implore you!" Astonished, I

one would hear him. Outside, and in a
particularly excited tone, he declared that I must take West
Pakistan for myself, he East Pakistan, and that he had set up
everything for a secret meeting. After dark he would send for
told him I didn't like this business. I hadn't come to
me.
Dacca to meet him like a thief under a banana tree and in the
dark, I didn't intend to dismember Pakistan, and if he wanted
brother! For the love of
him
took
outside so no
secession, he had only to propose
on
his absolute majority.
to
accept
to the
it
Assembly, counting
I had
compromise of resuming talks through our
spokesmen. Which is what happened without leading to
anything, of course. In those days he was more deranged than
But
it
was
like talking to a wall.
the
ever
he
lost his
head over nothing. And so we arrived
at the
twenty-fifth.
O.F.:
You
on March 25?
didn't notice anything suspicious
Z.A.B.: Yes.
felt a
had come
certain uneasiness, a strange sensation,
to a head.
Every evening
went
to
Yahya
which
to report
that Mujib and

weren't making any progress, and Yahya
showed no interest. He looked away or complained about the
1
television or
ite
the
songs
grumbled because he couldn't listen to his favorfrom Rawalpindi. Then
his records hadn't arrived
morning of the
something that left me

meet Mujib today. We'll see
Still
said, "All right," and at
twentv-fifth he said
disconcerted: "I'here's no need to
him tomorrow, you and

eight in the evening
1."
reported everything to Mujib's envoy.
194
And he
exclaimed, 'That son of a bitch has already
didn't believe
it.
left."
telephoned the presidential residence and
asked to speak with Yahya.
They
me
told
he couldn't be
turbed; he was at supper with General Tikka Khan.
distele-
phoned Tikka Khan. They told me he couldn't be disturbed;

he was at supper with Yahya Khan. Only then did I begin to
worry, and suspecting a trick, I went to supper. Then to sleep.
I was awakened
by gunfire and by friends running in from
other rooms. I ran to the window, and as God is my witness, I
wept. I wept and said, "My country is finished."
O.F.: Why? What did you see from that window?
Z.A.B.:
any indiscriminate
didn't see
demolish the
trying to
newspaper that had
killing,
but the soldiers were
offices of the People,
an opposition
offices right in front of the Intercon-
its
With their loudspeakers they were ordering people to

leave. Those who came out were put to one side under the
threat of machine guns. Other groups, on the sidewalk, were
being kept at bay with machine guns and the hotel was surrounded by tanks. Anyone who tried to take shelter in it fell
into the hands of the soldiers. That's all. That Mujib had been
tinental.
arrested
did
take
found out
it?
at eight in the
was glad he was
have maltreated him
might help
in prison
more than
left.
How
thought they might
month
or two, and in the
meantime
back law and order.
to bring
told you,
'Tou take West Pakistan and

how it's turned out. Do you
take East Pakistan." That's just
him
Not at
hate
Z.A.B.:
little. Then 1 thought that his arrest

compromise. They wouldn't keep him
Mr. President, Mujib

I'll
and
to reach a
we'd be able
O.F.:
morning, when
alive
for this?
all.
hypocritically.
feel great
And
I
say
don't say
compassion
lacking in culture,
it
in the
Indian fashion, that
sincerely because, instead of hatred,
it
for
is
I
him. He's so incapable, conceited,
common
sense,
everything.
He's in no
position to resolve any problem: either politically, or socially,
I've
He only knows how to

known him since 1954 and
understood from the very
or economically, or internationally.
shout and put on

I've
never taken
first
moment
that he
a lot
of
him
seriously
that there
was an
airs.
was no depth
agitator breathing a
him, no preparation,
lot of fire and with an
to
Ali Bhutto
The only
absolute lack of ideas.

is
idea he's ever
Toward someone
the idea of secession.
you
195
in his
head
how can
anything except pity?
feel
In 1961, during a trip to Dacca,
the lobby of
Mujib,
let's
seemed
full
talk quietly.
my
have
hotel;
a
went up
cup of
tea."
saw him again.
him and
to
He was
of bitterness, and this time
He
said
how
just
very true;
I'd
He was
out of prison, he
able to
East Pakistan was exploited by

its
even written the same thing
in
"Hello,
said,
we were almost
Pakistan, treated like a colony, sucked of
blood
and
in a book.
West
it
was
But he
draw any conclusions, he didn't explain that the fault

economic system and in the regime, he didn't speak
didn't
was
had
like that,
in the
On
of socialism and struggle.
the contrary, he declared that
the people weren't prepared for struggle, that no one could op-
pose the military, that

the injustices.
was the military that had
it
He had no
He
courage.
really call himself, to journalists, "the tiger of
O.F.:
He
even says that
at his trial
to resolve
never has had. Does he
Bengal"?
he refused to defend himself and
was heroic. He was in a cell

where there wasn't even a mattress to sleep on.
Z.A.B.: Come on now! He wasn't in a cell, he was in an apartment
that his behavior after his arrest
that's
put
at the disposal
of important political detainees. In
Lyallpur, near Mianwali, the Punjab prison. True, he wasn't
allowed to read the newspapers and
had the entire
and he
library of the
listen to the radio,
governor of Punjab
lived quite well indeed.
but he
at his disposal
At a certain point they even
gave him a Bengali cook because he wanted to eat Bengali

dishes. At his trial
he defended himself, and how!
He
asked for
the services of two eminent lawyers:

Brohi,
prison
Kamal Hussain and A. K.

his legal adviser and friend. Kamal Hussain was in
but not Brohi, and to have Brohi means to have the
best of the best.
didn't
want
I'll
to accept
tell
you something
but Yahya
then presented himself
at
the
other lawyers. Paid for by the

that
trial
else.
At
first
Brohi
forced him, and he
with four assistants, four
state, naturally. It cost a fortune,
Well, Brohi has only one

So every time he came back
trial.
terbox.
Khan
fault: he's a bit
to
of a chat-
Karachi from Lyallpur,
he told about the conversations he'd had with Mujib and said
it
would be
difficult to find
him
guilty-
Mujib had put
things
196
such a convincing way as regards his respect
in
for the unity of
Yahya Khan. Mujib never tired of

repeating that Yahya Khan was a fine man, a great patriot, and
that he had been led astray by me
the only one responsible
Pakistan and his devotion to
for his arrest.
This was confirmed
whom said,
me a fine man,
to
to
happen.
"Give him
to
a great patriot,
to
me
me and
and
by General Pirzada,
you'll see that he'll call
insult you." Just
what was
But he was convicted and sentenced.
O.F.:
No. The special tribunal found him
guilty and from then on

Yahya Khan, as administrator of martial law, to
decide on the sentence, which could have been five years or
life
imprisonment or the death penalty. Yahya decided
nothing the war had broken out and he had plenty of other
things on his mind.
O.F.: Mujib told me they had dug his grave.
Z.A.B.: Do you know what that grave was? An air-raid shelter. They
had dug it all around the walls of the prison. Poor Mujib.
Z.A.B.:
it
was up
to
Being so
fearful,
he mistakes everything
for a
death notice. But
Yahya was thinking of killing him. On

December 27, when I was sworn in as the new president of the
Republic, I met with Yahya Khan. He was desperate, drunk,
he looked like the portrait of Dorian Gray. He told me: 'The
greatest mistake of my life has been not to execute Mujib
Rahman. Do it yourself, if you like."
I
O.F.:
don't believe that
And you?
Z.A.B.:
said that
supposed
pathy
wouldn't, and after thinking
atrocities of the
over,
got ready
much sympa-
thought the gesture would accelerate the return
of our war prisoners. So

to bring
for the
army, Pakistan needed some sym-
thought the act of clemency would get
thy. Besides
pur
it
Mujib. Having been condemned by everyone
to free
Mujib
to
me
immediately sent an order

in
Rawalpindi.
When
to Lyall-
the order ar-
Mujib got frightened. He began moaning that they'd

him out and execute him; he didn't calm down
even during the journey or when he entered the bungalow I'd
put at his disposal. A beautiful bungalow for important guests.
rived,
come
When
to take
clothes,
arrived with a radio, a television
set,
and
bundle of
he assailed me: ''What are you doing here?"
ex-
Ali Bhutto
plained
tone.
become
I'd
He threw
his
197
president and he immediately changed his
arms around
my
was always sending

been the one
I'd
me
to get
to save
him
him.
out.)
me
neck, he told
the most wonderful news he'd ever had in his

.
Then
was
this
that
life,
God
(The other time too
just as I'd foreseen,
began attacking Yahya, pausing only
me
to ask
he
he could
if
free. I saw him again twice before he went

Dacca by way of London. And both times he took out
his book of the Koran, he swore on the Koran that he'd keep
up relations with West Pakistan. He swore it also on the plane,
when I saw him off at three in the morning, and I almost succeeded in being moved. He swore and embraced me, he
thanked me, he repeated his eternal gratitude: "Don't worr>%
Mr. President, I'll be back soon. I want to know your beautiful
country better, and you'll see me again soon, soon."
O.F.: Are you ever sorry you freed him?
Z.A.B.: No, never. He's a Pakistani like myself, whatever he may
say. And more than once we've suffered the same accusations,
the same persecutions
underneath it all there's a bond between us.
always remember him as I saw him one day in
January, when he clutched my arm and sobbed and begged,
"Save me, save me." I feel genuine pity for him. Besides, poor
consider himself
back
to
Mujib, he won't
he'll
see,
last
long. Eight months, at
most
a year
then
You
be swallowed up by the chaos he himself wanted.
Bangladesh today
is
a satellite of India.
But
will
it
soon
become a satellite of Russia, and Mujib isn't a communist.

Even if he were to manage all right, which is most unlikely, at
on
them on
that point he'd find the Maoists

victors in this war.
Politically the
He
has
his back,
his
Mukti Bahini count
who
are the real
back already.
for nothing,
lacking as
they do any ideological preparation, any indoctrination, any
Then socially speaking, they're a disturbance they

know how to fire in the air, frighten people, steal, yell Joi
Bangio. And you can't run a country by yelling Joi Bangla.
The Bengali Maoists, on the other hand
well, they cerdiscipline.
only
tainly don't represent a \ery refined product
read half of
force
Mao's
and don't
let
little
red book.
at
most they've
But they're an articulate
themselves be used by the Indians, and
don't even think they're against the unity of Pakistan. They'll
198
end by having the upper hand. Good Lord, it would take a genius to cope with such complex and frightful problems
just
imagine Mujib coping with them. And then that's such an un-
fortunate land. Hurricanes, floods, storms.
born under an unlucky
and
star,
let's
One would
not forget
it's
say
it's
always
been the dregs of the world. You should have seen Dacca
1947 and even
even
in
Now
streets.
1954!
dirty village
that everything
is
in
where there weren't
destroyed, thanks also to
the dynamite of the Mukti Bahini, Bangladesh
you say Bangladesh.

Z.A.B. Obviously I say it with anger and scorn. Obviously for me
it's
still
East Pakistan. But, rightly or wrongly, and even
though it's the result of a military action by the Indians, fifty
O.F.: I'm surprised

:
countries have recognized

to recognize
it,
if
it.
must accept
it.
I'm even ready
India gives us back our prisoners,
sacre of the Biharis ends,
if
we're to reunite ourselves in a federation,

tablish diplomatic relations.
the mas-
if
the federalists aren't persecuted. If
And
we must
first
es-
think that within ten or
fif-
teen years Pakistan and Bangladesh can be reunited in a federation.
Can and
should, otherwise
West Bengal, which wants
who
will
fill
separate from
to
the
vacuum?
India? There's
common between the East Bengalis and the West

Between us and the East Bengalis, on the other
hand, there's religion in common. The Partition of 1947 was a
nothing
in
Bengalis.
very good thing.

O.F.:
Very good! To create a country with two stumps two thousand

kilometers apart and with India in the middle?
Those two stumps stayed together for twenty-five years, despite all the mistakes that were made. A state isn't only a terri-
Z.A.B:
torial
or geographical concept.
national
When
anthem the same, the
the flag
is
the same, the
religion the same, distance
is
no problem. At the time when the Mongols unified India, the

Muslims of this part took a hundred days to reach the other
part. Now all they needed were two hours by air. Do you see
what I mean?
O.F.: No, Mr. President. I understand Indira Gandhi better when
she says that the Partition of 1947 was wrong and that wars of
religion are ridiculous in the 1970s.
Z.A.B.:
Mrs. Gandhi has only one dream:
to take
over the whole
Ali Bhutto
199
subcontinent, to subjugate us. She'd Hke a confederation so
make Pakistan
why she says
as to
that's
We
brothers.
disappear from the face of the earth, and

we're brothers, and so forth. We're not
never have been.
our souls, into our ways of

attitudes are different.
Hindu and
they die, a
life.
Our
Our
rehgions go too deep into

cultures are different, our
From the day

a Muslim are
they're
bom
to the
day
subject to laws and cus-
toms that have no points of contact. Even
their
ways of eating
and drinking
are different.
They're two strong and irrecon-
cilable faiths.
It's
shown by
the fact that neither of the two has
compromise with the other, a

Only dictatorial monarchies, foreign invasions, from the Mongols to the British, have succeeded in
holding us together by a kind of Pax Romana. We've never arrived at a harmonious relationship.
You see, the Hindus are not the mild creatures that Mrs.
Gandhi would like you to think. They have respect for their
ever succeeded in reaching a
modus
vivendi.
sacred cows, but not for Muslims. They've always mistreated
and humiliated
to
me
in 1944.
us.
I
I'll
never forget an episode that happened
was on holiday with
was running up and down

point
got very thirsty. So
water and asked
him
a hill, as
I
went up
for a drink.
my
parents in Kashmir.
boys do, and at

to a
man who was
The man
filled
a certain
selling
the cup,
hand it to me, then stopped and said, ''Are you a

a Muslim?"
hesitated to answer
I
desperately
wanted that water. Finally I said, 'Tm a Muslim." Then the
man poured the water on the ground. Tell that to Mrs.
started to
Hindu or
Gandhi.
You two
O.F.:
z.A.B.
really can't stand
each other, can you?
To me
don't even respect her.
she's a
mediocre
woman
with a mediocre intelligence. There's nothing great about her;
only the country she governs

that
makes her seem
And
also the
name
tall,
is great.
I mean,
it's that throne
though actually she's very small.
she bears. Belic\e me,
if
she were prime
minister of Ceylon, she'd be nothing but another Mrs. Bandaranaike.
Come
Golda
And
now,
is
far
if
she were prime minister of Israel
wouldn't dare compare her
Golda Meir.
too superior. She has an acute mind, sound judgI
ment, and she goes through
much more
to
difficult crises
than
200
those of Mrs. Gandhi. Also she
came
to
power by her own
ent. Mrs. Bandaranaike, instead, got there by the simple
tal-
fact
Gandhi by the simWithout having Nehru's

light. With all her saris, the red spot on her forehead, her little
smile, she'll never succeed in impressing me.
She's never impressed me, ever since the day I met her in
Lx)ndon. We were both attending a lecture, and she was taking
notes so insistently and pedantically that I said to her, "Are
you taking notes or writing a thesis?" And speaking of theses,
you know I can't believe she succeeded in getting that degree
in history at Oxford. I completed the three-year course at Oxof being Bandaranaike's widow, and Mrs.
ple fact of being Nehru's daughter.
ford in
two
years.
And
in three years she wasn't able to finish
the course.
O.F.: Aren't
you being
Or are you
a woman?
Z.A.B.:
men.
tive.
last so
My
if
Do you
unjust?
little
re-
she wasn't worth something?
women
have nothing against
don't think
long
obliged to think she's worth nothing because she's
No, no.
though
a little excessive, a
she could
ally think
women make
as
heads of
state,
better heads of state than
opinion of Mrs. Gandhi
is
impersonal and objec-
not even influenced by the fact that she behaves so
It's
deplorably by not returning our war prisoners and not respect-
Geneva Convention. That's how
ing the
a diligent
drudge of a schoolgirl,
and imagination.
was studying
woman
always seen her:
devoid of
in
initiative
when
All right, she's better today than
Oxford or taking notes
at
I've
she
London. Power has
given her self-confidence and nothing succeeds like success.
But
a question of success out of proportion to her merits;
it's
India and Pakistan were to
have no trouble
become confederated
in carrying off the post
countries,
if
I'd
from Mrs. Gandhi.
I'm not afraid of intellectual confrontations with her. Having

said that,
Even
like
in
I'm ready to meet her
New
Talleyrand
that bothers
when and where
Delhi. Yes, I'm even ready to go to
she
New
likes.
Delhi,
Congress of Vienna. The only idea

that of being escorted by an honor guard
after the
me
is
from the Indian army and physical contact with the lady herself.
It
instead:
irritates
me. God! Don't make
me
think of
what did Mrs. Gandhi say about me?
it.
Tell
me
201
Ali Bhutto
She told me you're an unbalanced man, that today you say

one thing and tomorrow another, that one never understands
O.F.:
what's on your mind.

Z.A.B.:
Ah, yes?
I'll
answer that
basic concept should
one should be able
pole,
now
to the other.
and precise idea

into
sinks
thing
In other words,
accept
"Consis-
this statement:
is
think a
remain firm but, within that basic con-
cept,
single
The only
right away.
from the philosopher John Locke

tency is a virtue of small minds."
move back and
to
An
intellectual
he
monologue,
to
one
to a
should be
into
Now
should never cling
forth.
Otherwise he
elastic.
fanaticism.
politician,
the
movement per se a politician should be

mobile. He should sway now to right and now to left; he
should come up with contradictions, doubts. He should
same.
Politics
is
change continually,
from every side so
test things, attack
as to
weak point and strike at it. Woe to

him if he focuses immediately on his basic concept, woe if he
reveals and crystallizes it. Woe if he blocks the maneuver by
which to throw his opponent on the carpet. Apparent inconsistency is the prime virtue of the intelligent man and astute politician. If Mrs. Gandhi doesn't understand that, she doesn't
single out his opponent's
understand the beauty of her profession.

derstood
o.F.
Indira
Now
her father un-
it.
Gandhi
says her father wasn't a politician,
he was
saint.
Z.A.B.:
Oh, Mrs. Gandhi
was
a great politician
is
wrong about her
she should have
Nehru
father!
instead
half her father's talent!
Look, even though he was against the principle of Pakistan,

I've
When
always admired that man.
ally enthralled
by him. Only
a spellbinder with
many
later did
vain,
faults,
was young
and that he
ruthless,
didn't have the class of a Stalin or a Churchill or a
And what
tung.
O.F.:
She
said
it
what
26,
front. East Pakistan
not Pakistan? Let's be serious.

it was Emerson who said
minds." (Translator's note.)
Actually
little
it:
"A
If
Tse-
started the war.
Everyone knows they were the ones
on the eastern
Mao
Mrs. Gandhi say?
else did
was you Pakistanis who
Z.A.B.: Ridiculous.
November
else,
was actu-
understand that he was
to attack us.
was perhaps
someone invades Palermo,
foolish consistency
is
the hobgoblin of

202
don't you conclude that Italy has been attacked?
someone
If
invades Marseilles, don't you conclude that France has been
Gandhi pretends
attacked? Mrs.
to forget that
our counterat-
on Deremember seeing Yahya on November 29 and

reproaching him for our failure to counterattack. "You're be-
tack in Kashmir, disputed territory, took place only
cember
having
3.
though nothing has happened
as
By delay-
in the east.
ing action, you're playing India's game, you're making people
West
believe that East Pakistan and
country,"
he changed
officers
soldiers
make
year
it
and hold out
the whole world will be
on our
better.
God!
was
there as a tourist and
of the
O.F.:
And
Z.A.B.:
UN.
you'd
made
a little territory
and
ordered Niazi to
a thousand times and

remember. He'd sent me
could have died

York,
found myself at that incredible session
I'd
that scene.
admit. But
The arrogance
great powers,
But he was only
side.
real scene,
disgust.
New
in
said;
months, a
for ten
And when he
plant the flag of Bangladesh.
felt
fourth time our
withdraw into Dacca,
Let's
a fortress out of
concerned that the Indians not conquer

surrender
The
were beating their heads against the tanks
And Dacca?
in desperation.
we'll
me. Four times
listen to
his orders for a counterattack.
and
same
Pakistan aren't the
him. But he didn't
told
was convulsed with
of the Indians.
who wanted
The
fear
only to placate India.
rage, with
shown by
I
the
wasn't able
made that speech in which told

to control my passion, and
them all to go to hell. wept too. Yes, often weep. always
weep when discover something disgraceful, unjust. I'm very
I
emotional.
O.F.
Emotional,
complicated,
unpredictable,
talked about.
It
seems
to
me
the
moment
your personality, Mr. President. Let's
man who
and
Z.A.B.:
is
are
many
reconcile them,
remain
come
talk a little
much
to take
about
up
this
very rich and yet a socialist, lives like a Westerner
yet has two wives.
There
and
has
this
conflicts in
me
I'm aware of that.
overcome them, but
my
soul Eastern.
As
for
my
try to
don't succeed and
strange mixture of Asia and Europe.
layman's education and a Muslim's upbringing.
Western and
My
have a
mind
is
two wives, what can
Ali Bhutto
do about
it?
They married me
203
off at thirteen, to
was thirteen and she was twenty-three.

what it meant to have a wife, and when they
my
cousin.
didn't even
know
tried to explain
it
didn't
went out of my mind with rage. With fury.
wife, I wanted to play cricket. I was very fond of
cricket. To calm me down, they had to give me two new
cricket bags. When the ceremony was over, I ran off to play
cricket. There are so many things I must change in my coun-
me,
want a
to
try!
And
was fortunate. They married
age of eleven to a
woman
my
playmate off
He
of thirty-two.
at the
always said to me,
"Lucky you!"
When
in
fell
She was
three.
love with
my
also studying in
an Iranian, that
is,
was hard
second wife,
was twenty-
England, and though she was
from a country where polygamy
me
tom,
it
have
many arguments
for
to
the cus-
is
persuade her to marry me.
didn't
except for the two words, "So what,
dammit!" No, the idea of divorcing my first wife never went

through my head. Not only because she's my cousin, but
because I have a responsibility toward her. Her whole life has
been ruined by
custom
we
raised.
She
my
born of
as
second marriage.
was an adolescent
story of injustice.
lygamy
lives in
besides
it
I've
I
my
spent
went
little
And
No?
Z.A.B.:
No.
feller.
owns
in
to the
four children are
West
you
to study.
as
do everything I can to discourage pocauses no small economic problem. Often
I'll
not everyone can afford
so rich as
O.F.:
house
time with her
the wives are separated in different houses or

case.
my
see each other every so often. She's almost always
She hasn't even had children
alone.
soon
absurd marriage to a boy, by the absurd
which we've been
in
Larkana;
this
it
as
can.
cities, as in
Though
my
I'm not
say.
To
To
a lot
means to be a duPont or a Rockemeans much less. Here anyone who's rich

of land, but actually he's no richer than those Eu-
you, to be rich
us,
ropean barons
it
who own splendid crumbling villas and play the

live. Our land is dry and produces little. So
gigolo in order to
let's
say that instead of rich, I'm relatively rich, that
that
my
been
to
sister lives well, that
my
live well,
brother lived well, that we've
good schools but have never wasted
penny.
I've

204
When
never been a playboy.

at
Oxford,
never bought a
was
car.
wisely, for instance in order to go to
ing people and buy books.
where
you'll see
many
because
them
of
my money on clothes
my clothes; I've
time
a long
because I'm
but only because
when
flower
O.F.: Finally
Juan.
Is
are dirty
didn't even have air conditioning.
or stupid people.
silly
I
others are dancing. Finally
you have the reputation of being

it true, Mr. President?
Z.A.B.: That's also very exaggerated. I'm a
you can be
romantic
and
stink.
too.
But
to
dance,
hate to be a wall.
a lady-killer, a
romantic
politician without being romantic
Don
don't think
and
think there's nothing so inspiring as a love
for
like to enter-
know how
music and because
like
clean.
never been able to
and comfortable houses. That's true
but never
tain,
But not
true.
It's
and change
who
Some
Like sports.
squander
beautiful
library,
in books.
old and beautiful
of being well dressed.
stand Indian and Pakistani princes
own
interest-
my
my money:
me
love to bathe
meet
to
take a look at
always immensely enjoyed reading.
people accuse
you
money
always handled
Europe
put a good part of
have thousands of them,

I've
If
America and
a student in
I've
as
affair.
There's nothing wrong with falling in love and conquering a
woman's
heart
woe
men who
to
don't
fall
in love.
You can
hundred times, and I do fall in love. But

even
I'm a very, very moral man. And I respect women. People
think that Muslims don't respect women. What a mistake. To
fall in love a
and protect them
respect
prophet
Mohammed.
I,
physical violence, once

ciously,
till
had raped
when
stripped
drels!
thing
I'll
read that
one
teachings of the
champion of
man. I whipped him feroyou know why? Because he
Do
was blind with rage
some hundred
this
morning,
students had attacked and
some girl students on the beach in Karachi. Scounmake them subject to martial law. And say someI
else. If
olence on the
to try
O.F.: Let's
And
first
don't call myself a
whipped
the blood came.

little girl.
one of the
is
who
were
to ascertain that
women
our
of Bangladesh,
soldiers really used vi-
I'd
insist
on being the
them and punish them.
go on to something
else,
Mr. President.
Let's
go on to
Ali Bhutto
how you can reconcile

your Muslim faith.
your Marxism and
even with
leges,
Z.A.B.:
fine
to
myself a Marxist
call
205
in the
economic
sense; that
myself to accepting Marxist doctrine so
What
economics.
terpretation of history,
God
Righdy or wrongly,
or doesn't.
exists
If
and I'm not ready
theories of
its
As
or not.
exists
Marxism
reject in
does,
it
it
concerns
in-
believe
God.
in
something that either
is
name
in the
it.
It's
in
me,
of the ecclesias-
or philosophical aspects of Marxism. At the
tical
con-
dialectical
its
useless to discuss
it's
renounce
to
faith
it
is,
the question whether
good Muslim,
believe
far as
are
life,
with your privi-
it
same time
I'm convinced that to call oneself a Marxist and call oneself a
Muslim
are
two things that can go together
underdeveloped country
especially in an
Pakistan where
like
don't see any
solution except scientific socialism.
Pakistan
said
tional
I'm
my
not sticking
crusades; I'm
others.
not raising any banners for interna-
nose
concentrate on the reality of
my
in
the affairs of
country and
that's
No, not by a process of revolution I recognize that. I

would like to, since I can look you in the eye and swear to you
I'm a revolutionary. But I can't afford sudden and bloody revolutions. Pakistan wouldn't be able to stand it; it would be a disaster. So I must proceed with patience, by reforms, measures
all.
that will gradually lead to socialism

sible, refraining
capital of
surgeon
from
when
pos-
must take
my
time, be a
doesn't plunge his knife too deeply into the fabric
of society. This
knife,
slowly for a
nationalizing when
necessary, respecting the foreign
which we have need.
who
under the
it
is
a very sick society,
you have
wound
to operate
to heal, for a
and
if
it's
not to die
with caution, waiting
reform to be consolidated.
We've been asleep for so many centuries, we can't violently

wake ourselves up with an earthquake. Besides, even Lenin, in
the beginning, stooped to compromises.
O.F.:
Mr.
President,
you're a
people don't believe you.
They
else,
say
that
do anything to hold on to your power, that you'll never

up your possessions.
No? By the agrarian reforms I've made in these three
you'll
give
Z.A.B.:
many
demagogue seeking power and nothing
2o6
months,
my
family has lost forty-five thousand acres of land.
And
personally have lost six to seven thousand.
my
more,
children will lose
of selfishness.
since the day
no
I've felt
I
God
more.
still
I'm not playing with socialism, that
can even
my
witness that
don't proceed slowly out
fear of giving
read Marx.
is
Til lose still
up what I own ever

you the time and
tell
Bombay, 1945. As for the accusation that I'm only out

this would be a good time to understand what
we mean by the word power. By power I don't mean the kind
Yahya Khan had. By power I mean the kind you exercise to
level mountains, make deserts bloom, build a society where
have no evil
people don't die of hunger and humiliation.
platforms. I don't want to become a dictator. But so far I can
place:
for
power, well,
say that
have
I'll
The
mend are often in splinters.
splinters. And if throw them away
be very tough, even authoritarian.
to
broken windows I'm setting out

I'll
have
throw away the
to
too carelessly,
to
won't have a country,
I'll
have a bazaar.
Anyway look, you don't go into politics just for the fun of it.
AnyYou go into it to take power in your hands and keep
trying
always
are
Politicians
is
liar.
the
opposite
a
one who says
to make you believe that they're good, moral, consistent.
it.
Don't ever
me when
ther taught
he
said,
ready to be hit twice by him."

I've forgotten the
They
O.F.:
say,
no such thing
their trap. There's
fall in
moral, consistent politician. Politics
is
"Never
The
hit a
rest
is
man
Mr. President, you're
my
fa-
unless you're
boy-scout
boy-scout virtues ever since
good,
as a
give-and-take, as
went
a great reader of
stuff,
and
to school.
books about
Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon.

z.A.B:
Of
also
Do you want
fascist
tual
And
course.
Stalin.
is first
of
enamored of
books about
De
Gaulle, Churchill,
make me confess I'm a fascist? I'm not.

an enemy of culture, and I'm an intellec-
to
all
culture.
fascist
is
man
of the right, and
come
from the aristocracy. To read about a person doesn't mean to
make him your hero. I've had some heroes, yes, but when I
I'm a
man
of the
was
a student.
get
chewed,
when
left.
fascist
a petit bourgeois,
Heroes, you know, are
spit out,
like
changed, and you
you're young. Anyway,
chewed the
is
if
chewing
like
and
gum
they
them especially
know whom I've
you care to
Genghis Khan, Alexander,
longest, here they are:
Ali Bhutto
little
And
baldi.
Napoleon most of all. But I've also

of Mazzini, a little of Cavour, a little of Gari-
Napoleon.
Hannibal,
chewed
And
see.
ask
Z.A.B.:
One
contra-
who
me
better, let
little
whom
to
you've
felt
or
you the most.
liked
He said was cut from the same cloth. He

And worshiped him. He was an exceptional
I
despite his weaknesses
women.
our time
those you've liked or
worshiped me.
man
understand you a
figures of
Sukarno.
is
how many
see
me?
so, to try to
you who are the
feel close:
You
of Rousseau.
lot
dictions there are in

O.F.:
207
with
his vulgarity
for instance
neither necessary nor dignified continually to
It's
show your own virility, but he didn't understand that. Furthermore he didn't even understand economics. The other is Nasser. Nasser too was a first-rate man, with Nasser too I got
He
along very well.

I
loved
me and
loved him. In 1966,
me
Egypt and received
he
said
could
Then,
let's
see
Stalin has always

as
my
with the honors of a

long as
stay there as
.
My
Stalin.
been deep, a gut feeling
antipathy for Khrushchev.
to
head of state, then
needed.
Yes,
Stalin.
when
me
was forced to leave the government, Nasser invited
respect for
I'd say, just as
much
You may understand me
bet-
when say never liked Khrushchev, that always thought

him a braggart. Always swaggering, yelling, pointing his finger
And always ready to give in to
at ambassadors, drinking.
the Americans. He did a lot of harm to Asia, Khrushchev.
And finally ... know, you're waiting for me to say someter
Mao
thing about
about a giant
about
Chou
Tse-tung. But what do you want
Mao
like
Tse-tung?
En-lai. He's the
one
easier for
It's
know
me to say
me to talk
better, the
one
I've
and discussed things with longer. Endless discussions,

from dawn to dusk, for days, at least once a year. It's since
1962 that I've been going to China and meeting Chou En-lai.
talked
And
O.F.:
him, simply,
Mr. President,
all
these
admire him.
men
to struggle a lot to gain
have had
power. But not you.

Z.A.B.:
You're wrong.
been put
It
in prison,
hasn't been easy for

I've risked
my
life
Ayub Khan, with Yahya Khan. They

soning
my
food, by shooting at
me
to get here.
plent\ of times.
tried to kill
mc. Twice
in
me
I've
With
by poi-
1968, once in
2o8
1970. In Sanghar, two years ago,

the cross
was kept
for
an hour under
One man
of assassins sent by Yahya Khan.
fire
while shielding me, others were seriously wounded.
not forget moral suffering;
let's
become
your
own
who
The
aren't
who
hardest thing for
been
it's
me on
had
start,
play at being psychoanalysts,
My
was
father
which
And
was born didn't

hadn't had this
if
ever since
it,
how was
was
it
we must
say
a brilliant politician
manifested?
politics, that
if we want to
owe it to my
But
a boy.
a pity
so very early, after having lost certain elections.
high conception of
sincerity.
and
privileges in
the poor,
who
did this vocation
Z.A.B.: I've always
parents.
Neither friends in
myself taken seriously by those
Aladdin's flying carpet.

.
And
hasn't been to escape the bullets
to get
vocation for politics
And how
me
died
you're born rich and
in fact
me. The
didn't believe
O.F.:
when
believes you.
make fun of you, nor

enlightened enough to believe in your
circle,
the poison,
put
no one
a socialist,
he
retired
He had
a very
of an aristocrat who's aristo-
and he talked to me in such an inaround Larkana, he showed me the

temples, the splendid houses, the vestiges of our civiliand he said to me: "Look, politics is like building a
a house. Or else he said it was like writing music, or
My
And he mentioned Brahms, Michelangelo.
family
and
was
poor
from
was different. She came
a
cratic to his finger tips,
spired way.
ancient
zation,
temple,
poetry.
He
took
me
mother
haunted by other people's poverty. She did nothing but repeat
to me: "We must take care of the poor, we must help the poor,
the poor shall inherit the earth," and so forth.
When
ears that
I
I
went
to
became
America, her message had so sunk into

a radical.
went
to
America
my
to study at the
University of California, where a great jurist of international law

I wanted to take my degree in international law.
was the period of McCarthyism, of the communist
witch-hunts my choices were laid out. To get away from
was teaching.
And
that
Sunset Boulevard, from the
girls
with red nail polish,
ran off
to Maxwell Street and lived among the Negroes. A week, a

month. I felt good with them they were real, they knew how
to laugh. And the day in San Diego when I wasn't able to get
a hotel room because I have olive skin and looked like a Mex-
Ali Bhutto
ican
ately
well, that helped.
And
England.
209
Then, from America,
those were the years of Algeria, so
took the side of the Algerians.
Number
slogans in front of
cause I'm secretly a
crowd and
little
10
more
intelligent,
O.F.:
more
subtle,
Street.
shy, I've never liked to
participate in turmoil.
I've
went to
immedi-
But not by shouting
Downing
cussion by writing, a struggle by the
Maybe
mix
be-
in the
always preferred a dis-
game
of politics.
It's
more
refined.
One last question, Mr. President, and

Do you think you can last?
excuse the brutality of
it.
Z.A.B.: Let's put
think
I'll
First
of
work, as
young
last
all
I
this
it
way.
could be finished tomorrow, but
longer than anyone else who's governed Pakistan.
because I'm healthy and
full
do, even eighteen hours a day.
I'm
barely forty-four,
of energy
Then because
can
I'm
ten years younger than Mrs.
I
know what I want. I'm the only
World who has gone back into politics
Gandhi. Finally because

leader in the Third
despite
the
of two
opposition
great
powers
in
1966 the
United States and the Soviet Union were both very happy to
see
me
in trouble.
And the reason I've been able to overcome

know the fundamental rule of this profes-
that trouble
is
that
What
is
the rule? Well, in politics you sometimes have
sion.
and make others believe they're the
to pretend to be stupid
only intelligent ones. But to do this you have to have light and
Have you ever seen a bird sitting on

must have fairly light,
fairly flexible fingers, to insinuate them under the bird and
take away the eggs. One by one. Without the bird realizing it.
flexible fingers,
its
and
eggs in the nest? Well, a politician
Karachi, April 1972
Willy Brandt
-
It
will
be up
and
great statesman
what extent Willy Brandt was

man. But it was already clear that as
decide
to history' to
a great
to
a
a
chancellor he was the only large figure in Europe. Everyone liked
him. Everyone believed him. And everyone recognized
new Germany,
leader of a
hatred or
fear:
his credit.
Prize.
But
the word
much
Not
as
it
there
was no need
him
for
him
to read the
so.
And
this to
much
has
to
to
against Hitler
Hitler.
blows with the Nazis, he
to kneel
down
in
fled
man who
past.
in Jerusalem. Still,
There
he did
than his Ostpolitik, his
humanitarian,
rejects every
in this socialism that
from the
Warsaw. There was no need
less significant
his socialism, a
mayor of
against
fists."
psalm of forgiveness
socialism, as befits a
was
the
having made us understand that
mean
me seems no
Europeanism, and
it
still
not the slightest stain on his democratic
is
him
in
no longer inspired
"by words and He fought

He wrote
does not
came
for
thermore,
that
might arouse envy. He
his chief credit lies in
German
the Nazis, he
Germany
nothing did they give him the Nobel Peace
for
since the age of fourteen
Nazis
liberal,
modern
shade of dogma. Fur-
he grew up, became
a jour-
and always took his stand. Let

us not forget that Willy Brandt was the only head of state who
spoke out with the same clarit>' and firmness against the Greek colonels and against the Soviet functionaries who are out to destroy
nalist, a writer,
their opponents.
the
Berlin,
Willy Brandt
His
moment
has been exceptional from the
life
December
1913,
18,
in
He never knew
never acknowledged him. Only
his father
of his birth, on
His mother was a
the city of Lubeck.
young, unmarried trade union worker.
and
211
at
his father,
about the age of
name, which sounded Swedish or Norwegian or Danish. In a book he writes, "The boy heard but was not
interested. Or was he? An opaque veil extends over those years,
gray as the fog in the port of Lubeck. Figures and faces merge like
shadows that rise to the surface and disappear. ... It is hard for
me to believe that that boy called Herbert Frahm was myself."
He does not like to speak of his father. I was dumbfounded when
thirteen did
he hear
his
who he
he confessed he had always known
And one should
meeting him."
gitimate son" has caused

reer.
"He was
it
"ille-
it
this
casts
dark
helps us to understand
often distinguished from others for having suffered
is
pain and humiliation

often born of
alive
shamelessly even in election
shadow over our image of Adenauer,
One
still
interested in
trouble in his political ca-
But though
Adenauer.
Especially
not forget that the stigma of
him no small
His opponents have exploited
campaigns.
Brandt.
was.
end of the war. But not even then was
after the
great dreams,
sometimes even success, are

if as a child he had
hunger and unhappiness. Perhaps
been dandled on
a father's knee,
Willy Brandt today would not be
Willy Brandt.
He
does not
much
resemble his fellow countrymen. For twelve
years he was Norwegian,

reckless sincerity,
more than
that
he
and he admits candidly, or rather with

still
Norway
has
in
"When,
his blood.
you escape to a country whose culture and

language you absorb, you lose one homeland only to find another.
For me Norway was a second homeland." Is it still? The more you
look at him and listen to him, the more you wonder where the
German in him leaves off and the Norwegian begins. Or vice versa.
He has a house in Norway and goes back there every year on vaca-
little
tion.
a boy,
His closest friends are in Norway.
met both
his
first
half Norwegian.
is
said,
and
this
He wrote
is
was
in
Norway
that
he
I'd
extraordinary that a
Norwegian than in German, it

which Adenauer attacked
foreigner. He looks on passports
better in
something
him, calling him an interloper,

with indifference
It
wife and his second, and his children are thus
else for
a
say with a shrug of his shoulders.
man
And
isn't
it
so devoid of narrow-minded nationalism
212
should represent the country that unleashed a world war in the
name
in
of nationalism? Brandt resumed his
1946
to
have chosen
to
German
the future Europe. I'm sure not to be mistaken

the final analysis he
many, and,
still
citizenship only
do so honors the new Germany and
represents
when
say that in
Europe more than he does Ger-
in that sense, his role isn't finished.
What a sorrow to have seen him resigning because of a dirty spy

who lived next to him as a secretary; what a bitter blow to have seen
him
giving
up because of the even
around him.
When
he proudly
dirtier
left
blackmail that developed
his nation's
helm,
all
of pro-
Europe knew they had lost a battle; the defeat was not his
alone. It was the defeat of all those who believe in peace joined
with intelligence, freedom won with courage, and socialism
gressive
achieved with patience.
The
only consolation
not losing a war.
losing a battle
is
their seed has
been sown. This
The
Men
man
like
is
the thought that
him cannot be
Brandt
is
stopped;
not dead.
following interview took place in his office in the Bun-
derkanzleramt on two occasions: Tuesday, August 28, and
Mon-
Seldom is an interview the portrait of a man in

the way this one is. Not so much for what he says or doesn't say as
for how he says what he does. He speaks in a precise, prolix, and
severe manner. He almost never engages in remarks that might impair his dignity or makes admissions that would diminish his remoteness. If you try to probe his soul more deeply, he withdraws
it was
courteously and becomes silent. I tried again and again
useless. He opened the doors wide when I interrogated the politician; he closed them when I sought the man. Never have I en-
day, September
3.
countered such modesty, such shyness.
It is
therefore hard for
me
him as others do that is to say as a cheerful Teuton fond of

women, wine, beer, and a good laugh. can more easily identify
him with the peasant of the fiord whom he describes in the interview. Tough, solid, hard as iron, and the enemy of unnecessary
things. Even his politeness and the cordial way he receives you are
devoid of anything unnecessary. A pity I wasn't able to talk to him
to see
alone. Present at the interview were his adviser Klaus Harpprecht,
and the head of
his press office,
while a stenographer not in
my
employ to take notes operated a tape recorder placed next to mine.

It seemed like a summit meeting, a council of state. It was he who
Willy Brandt
wanted
way. And, though at
this
it
What
with respect.
filled
first
213
it
annoyed me,
consolation to be
don't
among
was soon
who do
people
things seriously.
ORIANA FALLACI: Frankly

Brandt.
have so
many
of your name, which
is
know where
Chancellor
to begin.
things to ask you, including the
stor>'
not the one you were born with. That
was Herbert Frahm, and

WILLY BRANDT: Yes, I started using the name Willy Brandt at the
beginning of 1933
before leaving Germany and after the
.
come
Nazis had
power.
to
chose
it
as a
nom
de guerre with
which to devote myself to clandestine activity against Hitler.

But it was under that name that I went abroad, when I was
nineteen. Under that name I began writing for the newspapers
and publishing my books, under that name I went into politics
and became an adult and came back to Germany at the end of
never
the war. Everything is tied up with that name, and
1
thought of taking back the one
was born with.
was as Willy Brandt that you got married and beNorwegian citizen. There, maybe that's where we
should start. I mean the fact that for years you had been a citi-
O.F.: Besides
came
it
zen of another country. Except
Germans who
left Hitler's
No, actually there were quite
W.B.:
for Jews, there weren't
a few. If
away.
And
it
goes without saying that almost
Why
I.
did
would have been
At
first
hadn't
all
and sent
much chance
expatriate,
to
my
going away.
When
and
I'd
ing as a broker's agent, and
would have had
this
stayed,
camp.
of getting out. Even
is
to
I'd
started
was interesting work
if
leave
have been
one contributing
finished school,
it
them were
if I'd
to a concentration
Lubeck. But not even by leaving Lubeck would

able to go to the university,
of
Germany? Because
leave
arrested
didn't have
become an
my own city,
many who went
you take
Lubeck, as an example, you'll find there were

older than
many
Germany.
factor
work-
for a year.
wanted to study history, and in Hitler's Germany it was

no longer possible to study history. So as soon as I got the
chance
But
A man who
belonged
to
my
group was supposed
to escape

214
to
Norway and open an
office there to take care of
some of the
problems connected with our resistance movement.
him
arranged for a fishing boat to take

place not far from the house where
and
did so, but
all
and sent
arrested
me
friends asked
was
same the man
the
living.
wanted
to
had
all
from
help
to
He was
Then my Berlin
place. And
ac-
didn't get away.
concentration camp.
to a
if
was
It
across, leaving
go in his
would mean staying away so long.

Many people thought that Nazism wouldn't last. They said
twelve months, at most four years. I didn't belong to the ranks
cepted.
had no idea
of the optimists, but
wouldn't
it
deluded myself into thinking that
World War.
longer than the First
last
Instead
it
it
lasted twelve years.

it, those twelve years you spent in Scandinavia
which your opponents have often reproached you. So let
ask you this question: Are you sorry not to have partici-
O.F.: That's just

for
me
pated directly,
W.B.:
mean
in
Germany
the struggle
in
itself,
Nazism?
against
I showed,
then and later, that I was willing to risk my life
whenever necessary. And even when it wasn't necessary. I
came back secretly to Hitler's Germany. I stayed several
months, before escaping again because they were about to
catch me. I went to Sweden, and to Norway, which was oc-
cupied by Hitler. So
I've
my
taken
risks.
question from a rational standpoint,
Germany
instead of expatriating myself,
have had the same opportunities

for
what
I'd
to
did in Berlin or later.
And
say
ferent
And
that
mean
the price
a strange
they supplied
especially
my
strange that so
my
pay was quite
my
identify with
say strange?
wonderful thing that so
dif-
countrymen.
true that to
It
some people
this
say to such people that
many Germans
Euro-
you pay
judgment
opponents with the opportunity to
fidence in me. Did

It's
it's
to
sure,
way of paying, and by
campaign against me. But
ful.
had
from that paid by the majority of
seemed
stayed in
develop and prepare myself
was the price of going away. Yes,
I'd
probably wouldn't
pean and international experiences. To be

price for everything.
looking at your
if
me and
it's
start a
just as
have con-
should have said wonder-
many Germans have con-
Willy Brandt
man whose
fidence in a
Not
has been different from theirs.
life
better. Different.
Chancellor Brandt,
O.F.;
215
assume
that in speaking of the price
you
paid you're also referring to the fact of being deprived of your
German
you
Was
citizenship after your expatriation.
German
your
to lose
it
on
citizenship and take
painful for
that of
Nor-
way?
No.
W.B.:
O.F.
Why? Did you
w.B.
Yes.
already like
considered
abroad as a young
home and
at
it
Norway
so
much?
second homeland. Because
man and
...
learns to speak the language well
Norwegian very quickly, and

I
man. And
that
was
true,
learned
much
wrote Norwegian
times that
if
lands in a country where
even
if
it
learned
well. I've said
better than
today
one goes
one feels
it's
many
wrote Ger-
not true any more.
when the country that takes you in becomes a place

where you make friends, when you absorb its culture to the
roots, when all this is easy for you because you come from the
Besides,
Baltic
well,
you
you from your
that this separates
feel
countrymen, but you also
feel
enriched by something you or-
Do
dinarily wouldn't have had.
make myself
clear?
mean
you begin by losing one country and end by finding another.

Nor is this something I'm discovering today, since I've always
admitted
a
it
to
be true. During the war
book published
Norway and
in
Sweden,
wrote
in the preface
work simultaneously
of
for a free
democratic Germany. This means a Europe
where Europeans can

citizenship for
"I
me
live."
didn't
Anyway,
mean
on Norwegian
up Germany. Or
to take
giving
my conception of Germany.
me reverse my previous question. Was
should say
O.F.:
Then
you
let
to lose
your Norwegian citizenship
in
it
painful for
order to get back
your German?
W.B.: No.
There are countries
that don't confront
you with such
become an American citizen,

wouldn't have
been able to hand back my passport, and at most would have
had to keep both nationalities. In Norway that doesn't happen
choice.
If I'd
You're either a Norwegian citizen or you're not. So

in
my Norwegian
passport without any fuss,
knowing
turned
full
well
2l6
that a passport has nothing to
knew
I'd
keep going back
to
do with your attitudes or ties. I

Norway, to see my friends and
my ties there wouldn't be

Many people have a passport
speak the language, and that in short
broken
just
because of
a passport.
me, "So
ask
is it
important
to
if
you were
I'd
answer,
and
that doesn't correspond to their nationality,
have a passport?"
to
it's
important primarily for crossing frontiers but the question of
documents
is
often overrated. National identity
is
something
else.
O.F.:
So
was
it
try,
W.B.: No.
you back
came back
1945 and
later in
and see a
trials
your mother coun-
a search for national identity, for
that brought
to Berlin after the
Germany as a
1946. I came back
little
of the country.
war?
to
cover the Nuremberg
been asked
I'd
it.
Then my good
to take over
Germany, but
the editorship of a newspaper or news service in
nothing came of
in the fall of
journalist,
to
friend Halvard Lange, at
Norwegian foreign minister, had said to me, "If

you don't go back to Germany within a year, why don't you
join my ministr)' and go to Paris as part of the Norwegian embassy?" But just as I was about to accept, he changed his
mind. "The prime minister and I think it would be better if
that time the
you went to Berlin as a press attach, with the job of supplying

the Norwegian government with political information and
evaluations." That's
my
of
head.
how
it
going to Berlin brought
Or
rather,
it
And
happened.
this process
obviously brought
gone
to Paris,
I'd
of identification to a
to a
it
than whatever would have happened had
obviously the fact
head
much
gone
to Paris.
sooner
Had
probably have joined some international
organization. And, at least for a few years
you would have gone on being a Norwegian citizen.

W.B.: Well, yes. At least for a while anyway. Later perhaps no. In
fact, if I'd waited a little longer, there wouldn't even have been
the need for me to request German citizenship again. By the
terms of the Constitution of 1949, all I would have had to do
O.F.:
was present myself
in
some
office
and
say,
"I'm here to regain
the nationality that the Nazis took away from me."
become a German
new German state in the
other hand, asked to

there existed a
.
I,
on the
citizen again before
spring of 1948. Yes
.just imagine, the government of Schleswig-Holstein re-
Willy Brandt
my
stored
on
nationality
on
swastika printed
even have new
home.
keep
official
as a
to
They were
They had to
forms.
in ink.
it
still
had the
so poor they didn't

obliterate the swas-
have that document
still
souvenir of the way
went back
at
being a
to
citizen.
amusing. But
O.F.: That's
back
it
paper that
a sheet of
Yes, yes!
it!
tika by scribbling over
German
217
what brought you
can't believe that
Germany was only chance and not
W.B.: Nevertheless
true.
it's
It
sentiment.
wasn't a sentimental thing. No.
re-
turned to Berlin for the simple reason that Berlin was interesting.
It
was the center of the conflict between East and West.
was the place

identification
That
to be.
then accelerated
this
another matter.
is
cess of political identification
my
And I don't mean only a promean a process of identifica-
tion with people living in poverty, in defeat. Berlin
of ruins, but
came
among
out. Yes,
it's
verse times, but
Berliners
it's
It
process of
was
a pile
those ruins the best qualities of the people
phenomenon
that often
happens
in ad-
always surprising. Oh, the morale of the
was never so high as in the first postwar years. Even

it was never to be so high. And so my pro-
during the blockade
cess of identification
O.F.:
But what do you mean by identification?
What
they call one's
country?
W.B.: No.
It
wasn't the country that drew
me
back.
It
was the case
of a people who, having passed through dictatorship and war
and destruction, were trying
to rebuild for
based on freedom. Yes,
this that
German
again.
each of them,
it
It
it
was
was the
themselves a
induced
fantastic will to
was that capacity
me
work
to
life
become
that
was
in
accomplish something,
to
one another. ... A desire we've lost by

becoming rich. ... It was in the air, like a feeling that everyone was sticking together to do something despite the economic miser}'. Do you see what mean? A question of human
and moral values rather than a nationalistic fact. The more I
think of it, the more I'm convinced it was those years in Berlin
that desire to help
that implanted in
mc
the idea of Europe.
Or
rather of the fu-
ture of Europe.
O.F.:
keep wondering, Ghancellor Brandt,
or rather your mind, you're not
if
deep
in
your heart,
more European than German.
2l8
...
Well
W.B.:
It
would be too much
German chan-
to expect a
admit
cellor who's almost sixty years old to
to that. Especially
knowing that Europe hasn't moved as far as it should have.

No, you can't ask me to feel and behave more like a European
than a German. One shouldn't even ask me to give that impression. So let's say I try to be a good European when I assume the responsibilities of a German. To answer your question: no, I'm German.
and I'm thinking of your visit to the Warsaw
O.F.: I see. But then
ghetto
let me ask you: To what extent does the guilt complex
that your generation carries along with the word German
weigh on you?
W.B.:
make
a distinction
feel guilty myself,
between
and
think
and
guilt
it's
responsibility.
don't
neither just nor correct to at-
complex to my people or my generation.

never to a
be imputed to an individual
else. And
something
is
Responsibility
generation.
or
a
people
I'd
even
though
early,
very
even though I had left Germany
such
tribute
Guilt
is
a guilt
something
to
never been a supporter of Hitler
put
to
mildly
it
Yes, even
still
why
ask ourselves:
answer:
not only
enough
to follow
yet
of people
millions
Of
course,
was young
I'd
we
only
were stupid
him, but also because the others were
too belong to that group of people
people,
In fact,
And we can
did he take power?
because
capable of stopping him.
And
my
coresponsible for the advent of Hitler.
feel
must
dissociated myself from
if I'd
can't
Or corespon-
exclude myself from a certain responsibility.

sibility.
in-
at that time.
who were
incapa-
ble of stopping him.

In the
life
of a people, the crucial
the people allow power to end
And
when
up
moment
takes place
when
the hands of criminals.
in
having the opportunity, don't use it

to maintain the conditions necessary for a responsible government. Because afterward you can't do anything. Afterward it
also
a people,
becomes more and more
who
difficult to
have taken power. In short, as
begins before and ends
after.
saw
as their fathers,
see
it,
And even young
nately, find this coresponsibility
same degree
throw out the criminals
on
but
coresponsibility
people, unfortu-
their shoulders.
.
Not
to the
You mentioned War-
Willy Brandt
O.F.:
Why
W.B.:
did you kneel
wanted
down
didn't kneel because

to identify
whom
people from
It
guilt to confess, but
my
myself with
people.
mean
because
with the
who had committed such terrible

That gesture wasn't only directed at the
those
things had emerged.

Poles.
Warsaw, Chancellor Brandt?
in
had any
219
was also directed
at the
Germans. Anyone who thinks
was only apf)ealing to the victims of Nazism and

lies is mistaken. I was also and primarily appealing
their fami-
to my own
the
need not
many
of
them,
too
many,
have
people. Because
to feel alone and to know we must bear this burden together.
O.F.:
Chancellor Brandt, did you decide on that gesture on the spur
moment,
of the
W.B.:
or had you already thought of
hadn't thought of
subconscious
it
it
before?
how can we know what our

mind? The idea was surely in my
before, but
may have
in
I remember, I woke up that

morning with the strange sensation that I wasn't just going to
place a wreath of flowers and let it go at that. I saw intuitively
that something else would happen. Even though I didn't know
what. Then suddenly I felt the need to throw myself on my
subconscious already, because, as
knees.
O.F.:
And
Yad Vashem, during your last trip to Israel? Your gesYad Vashem couldn't have been decided on at the last
moment.
at
ture at
W.B.: You're right. Before going to Israel,
about what
could do.
thought for
heard that they
I'd
call
long time
Yad Vashem
the place of truth, the terrible truth beyond everything that the
human mind
And
can imagine.
stance to this truth, because
on earth
And
exists. It
seems
to
me
wanted
most of those who were
So while
had already said
when
living in
again.
And,
in
in
in
hell
Warsaw.
Sweden I
for
my
trip to Israel, that
tried to explain to
as
was
it
knew about it before

or outside of Germany.
Germany.
was getting ready
of coresponsibility that
me
in
some sub-
to give
Auschwitz showed that
think I've already said that
knew what was happening
over
Warsaw,
sense
you before came

myself that
told
wouldn't be able to limit myself to placing a wreath of flowers
my face. Once I was

would have to react in
you see? wanted to do
with a stony or emotional expression on
confronted by what had happened,
some way
to
my own
impotence.
Do
220
something,
want
didn't
to
remain
passive.
my-
kept telling
must really be some gesture I can make for the good

Germans and the Jews, a gesture to open the way to the
future. Oh, I don't want to speak lightly of reconcilithere
self:
of the
ation
depend on me. But the solution I found

because we have something quite
that doesn't
seemed
me the right one

in common with
to
important
at least the
the Jewish people
Old Testament. That's why
Or
the Bible.
decided to read Psalm
103, verses 7 to 16: They will flee at thy threats; they will be
terrified at the
German,
sound of thy
in the
...
voice.
decided to read
in
it
language of Martin Luther. Certain expres-
young
studied the text and
sions were hard to understand, however. Especially for
So, while flying to Tel Aviv,
people.
compared Martin Luther's translation with the Jewish version

of the same words in German. I kept almost all of Martin
Luther's poetic expressions and added a few phrases from the
Hebrew Bible. I believe the Israelis understood what I wanted
And for this I'll always be grateful to them.

You were very eager to make that trip to Israel, weren't you?
to do.
O.F.:
Perhaps more than the

W.B.:
It
in
I'd
Warsaw.
trip to
was a question of two different things, since
Warsaw and
new
everything was
me.
to
On
Meir
But
knew nobody
the other hand,
mayor of
already been to Israel in 1960 as
even met Ben-Gurion and Eshkol. Then
Berlin; there I'd
had seen Golda
several times at international socialist party congresses.

.
because
it's
true,
was eager
was going
make
to
the trip
as the representative of
my
last
June
nation and
people. In short, not as Willy Brandt but as the representative
of a
first
new Germany. To
or
my
to Lidice
last
put
it
better,
Jerusalem was not
confrontation with the past. In
when
visit
I'll
my
also go
Czechoslovakia. Jerusalem, however,
most completely
represented the recognition of our
was the most important stop

expressed our dark days.
fact,
It
one
the
that
us that nothing of
it reminded
what we did should be forgotten or swept under the rug. No, it
responsibilities as
shouldn't.
left to
...
It
confess, by
Germans;
shouldn't.
Not
that there's anything
now. By now everything
recognize our responsibilities
is
known. But
to
Well, that not only serves
Willy Brandt
to cleanse
221
our conscience but helps us
to live together. Jews,
Germans. Since we must live together.

O.F.: Still Golda Meir, when I interviewed her last November, told
me she'd never set foot in Germany.
know. She's said it to others too. And I can't blame her for
W.B.:
Poles,
Nevertheless
that.
invited
I've
her
both privately and in public, and
she's accepted
officially,
hope she'll come. I really

do. I'm sure she's ready to come, and I like to think my visit to
Israel may have helped to make the idea of setting foot in Ger-
many
a little easier for her.
cinating
woman. A woman
Golda
of almost
woman. A fasAnd ev-
a great
is
Biblical stature.
eryone knows her qualities, which only old-fashioned people

call
masculine. Her strength of
ness.
Those
And then Golda
just gifts, that's all.

.
O.F.:
That
say she'll
faith,
barely touched
you: Europe.
when you
has such
up again
to take
on but which one
a subject we've
Ghancellor Brandt, you sounded discouraged
referred to
it
^they're
human warmth.
can't avoid going into with
a little
it
while ago. Don't you ever have
Europe
is
a utopia?
united Europe can be achieved.
Certainly
good picture of Willy Brandt. And
like
I'd
the suspicion that a united

W.B.: No.
example, her shrewd-
come.
faith gives a very
speaking of
steel, for
are neither masculine nor feminine gifts
hasn't developed
It's
being achieved.
and won't develop
in the
way our
Second World War when

they spoke of a United States of Europe. The Americans made
the mistake of comparing the possibilities for unifying Europe
with what had happened in the United States. A meaningless
American
friends thought after the
comparison.
The United
are too different
thing entirely.
To
States
is
from ours, and

create
melting pot whose
to create
Europe means
of national identity and then build over
to
Europe
is
realities
another
maintain the values
them
the structure of a
European government. And even though it's very slow, unfortunately, even though unfortunately it has no political sex appeal,
even though
procedures,
move
it
isn't that
freely in
involves the obstacles of bureaucratic
perhaps what's happening? Don't people
Europe?
never had before
in
Isn't
there a level of trade such as
Europe? But of course Europe
is
we
being
222
achieved! I'm
more and more convinced of
Community
pare the European
it
whenever
com-
of today with the one four or
five years ago.
O.F.:
But the Europe we

cellor Brandt!
W.B.: Look,
a
It's
Europe
call
entirely unified
choose the
to say I'd
Europe, Chan-
a very tiny
would have been overjoyed
United States of Europe.
Europe
is
not even half of Europe!
If
and
a part of
But
first.
if
we'd been able
to build
myself could choose between
it's
Europe
unified, needless
not possible
we're not
in
the position to be able to choose between an imperfect solu-
We
must work
We must
work with a Western Europe, that is, one capable of moving
toward a structure of common government. Then, through
the policy oi detente that has already begun, we must increase
communication between Eastern Europe and Western
Europe despite the differences that exist between their social
system and ours, between their political structure and ours.
Oh, if someone were to offer me a way of uniting something
tion
and
more than
a solution that's
perfect.
with a Europe divided in two, and even in three.
more than Western Europe,

you. But
it's
not possible,
existing fact that
United
States.
it's
call the third
The United
area of security.
I'd
say,
fine,
wonderful, thank
not possible. Besides, there's that
dimension: Europe plus the
Europe
States as a part of
in the
So you're not thinking of a neutral Europe, capable of representing an equilibrium between the two great powers?
W.B.: No. 1 wouldn't look on Europe as a force placed between the
two world powers. Aside from the fact that when one speaks of
world powers, one should speak not of two but of three, and
O.F.:
to speak of Europe as a fourth power,

Aside from the fact that to speak
and add a fifth Japan.
of Europe as a fourth power wouldn't be exact, since if a
united Europe were to begin trading, it would become the
No, I don't
number one commercial power in the world.
that would
Europe
at
a
aiming
want to give the impression of
then one would have
maintain a policy of neutrality
vis-a-vis the
two blocs repre-
sented by America and the Soviet Union. Naturally
want
different relationship with the United States than the one with
the Soviet Union.
With
the
United States
want
a part-
Willy Brandt
same time
nership, even though at the
Furthermore
policy.
would
like to see us
have so
O.F.:
223
I
want an independent
believe that even
behave
in a
United States
the
more mature way than we
far.
But then
the reunification of
Germany? Things being
as
they are, do you think you'll see the reunification of Ger-
many?
W.B.: No.
don't think so. Look,
already told you.
And
soon be
I'll
don't expect to
sixty years old, as I've
become
Methuselah.
Maybe, if did expect to become a Methuselah, my answer

would be more positive. Because I'd have to arrive at least at
I
the age of
years
do
man
tions
or
German
fifty
prob-
can't even imagine an isolated answer to the Ger-
problem.
Germanys
Germany. Not even within twenty
anticipate an isolated answer to the
lem. No,
people in the Caucasus, to see
30, like certain old
the reunification of
will
think a change in relations between the two
only
come about
change
as a result of a
in rela-
between the two Europes. So look, I'm not giving you an
I give you an answer that includes the

Europe may resolve the division between the
two Germanys. But mark my words: if that should happen,
optimistic answer, but

possibility that
don't
man
mean
state.
decide to
go back
to say that we'll

I
mean
to say the
to
forming
a single
Ger-
people of the two Germanys will
live a different relationship,
under
a roof different
from the one they've lived under since the end of the Second
World War.
O.F.:
Chancellor Brandt, when you speak of Western Europe,

you're obviously referring to a politically unified Europe. But
what does
W.B.:
It
this expression
means
done.
mean
to
you?
three things. Because there are three things to be
The
first
going on, since
is
I
economic
integration.
But
think we're heading toward a
that's
already
common mon-
Not in the sense that we must necessarily use the

same money, but in the sense that there'll be a stable rela-
etary system.
among our currencies. Yes, yes, in some way we'll arsome form of a conmion European bank; in some way
we'll arrive at economic and monetar)' union.
The second thing is what call European social union. And
when I say "social union," I'm not referring only to social poitionship
rive at
224
icy
the old sense of the word, the sense used by trade
in
and
unionists,
union
That too
so forth.
mean what
is
important, but by social
modern slogan
called the "quality of
In other words, I'm not referring only to an increase in
life."
productivity, since an increase in productivity
not a goal in
is
I'm referring to problems of the environment, working
itself.
conditions, education.
One
has to be
fairly
ambitious to
bring about within ten years a unified Western Europe that
most progressive
socially will be the
part of the world.
years are sufficient; in ten years
we can do
course we'll be able to arrive
common
at a
economic
since that cannot exist without

cial
union.
ties.
The
third thing
would be
It
is
And
it.
Ten
then of
political structure,
integration
and
so-
maintain our national identi-
to
a misfortune to give
them
up.
Western Europe that you're ambi-
O.F.: Yes, but in this splendid
what do we do with nondemocratic countries? What do we do, for example, with Spain and Greece?
W.B.: It's clear that no country can become a member of the Euroaiming
tiously
pean
at,
Community
if it's not based on the institutions we have.

government or parliament elected by the people,
unions, and so forth. It's clear that if a country doesn't
Namely
trade
some minimum respect for the Declaration of Human

can't become part of our Europe. So it's a big problem. All the more so in that I've learned from experience that
observe
Rights,
it
you almost never succeed in bringing freedom back in a

country that's lost it. If you do succeed, it's almost always the
result of a war
it seldom happens that a nation oppressed by
dictatorship finds a
way
without a war.
to liberate itself
speeches and actions of others help even

Boycotting
its
products,
on vacation. ...
there
always has
for
It
example.
The
less in liberating
it.
Refusing to go
doesn't do any good. But history
new developments up
its
sleeve,
and sometimes
sat-
isfying ones.
Let's take Spain.
as a
young man
about
I
I
six
knew Spain during
went there
months, especially
in
the Civil
as a journalist.
War, when
stayed there
Barcelona and Catalonia, and
remember the tremendous hatred that divided the two sides.

remember the incredible poverty of the country people.
Since then
I've
been back only once,
to
spend
a vacation
on
Willy Brandt
225
an island, and another time for half
went
United States by ship.
to the
and we stopped
around
the place, but what
velopment.
not that you could
saw seemed
to
me
walked
much from
tell
had known. So
within a generation, Spain were to
if,
and enter
itself
an extraordinary de-
was no longer the Spain
It
wouldn't be surprised
transform
That was when
Malaga, where
half a day in
for
Well
little.
a day.
took the ship from Naples
into the
European Community.
It
could happen by a process of evolution.

O.F.:
W.B.:
And Greece?
Oh, the
case of Greece
When we
more complicated.
is
talk
about Greece, we mustn't forget that things are not so simple

as
insist when they state that up until 1967

democracy in Greece a splendid democsudden became a military dictatorship. I
our Greek friends
there was a splendid

racy that
visited
and
of a
all
Greece in 1960, when Karamanlis was prime minister,

met Kanellopoulos, who today is very courageously in
Ah, yes
the opposition.
With
in
strong
wonderful man, Kanellopoulos.
German
ties to
touch during these years when he's had
ficulties.
Athens was
But the
much
fact
different
happen
in
Greece. All
if
it's
can hope
The
fact
is
mocracy by arms. Arms serve only

freedom. They can
O.F.:
if
some
And then even
them
Good. And now
those
let's
can't help but think of
me
many
friends
if
in the case
they want
Even with-
special situation arises.
go back to Willy Brandt. We've been
you
me
as a journalist.
Chancellor,
You were
a journal-
journalism for you?
was simply
always been easy for
of war. But
can regain their
to,
the help that their friends abroad are
What was
it
coun-
freedom
from Willy Brandt, and
for so long.
in
Because,
getting a
W.B.: Look, for
had
in that country.
will be useful.
ist
I'd
that the forces of
able to give
little far
in
held in other parts
I'd
remains, however, that you don't regain de-
think that the Greek people,
out arms.
dif-
press conference
they are, there's no doubt that they'll find
abroad.
many
to face so
not easy to foresee what will
be strong enough
will
my
I'd say, to
of limited democracy. So
and the future
that
is
from those
of the world. Rather similar,

tries
We've always kept
culture as well.
way
to earn a living.
Writing has
began writing when
went
to
226
To
school.
diploma,
write
will
"journalist";
and
cialist
man
studies,
worked
them
wanted
writer for newspapers.
someday
I'd
become
"Zeitungsleft-wing so-
life,
me
and wrote "jour-
wanted
undertake
to
was
Even the study of
a journalist.
in
order to be-
And when thought of how should orgaalways came to that conclusion. My dream was
a journalist.
my
nize
write
never had any doubts, from the time
was something
historv'
come
objected to the use of foreign words in the Ger-
Anyway
boy, that
in
young
to
was
language. But they didn't listen to
nalist."
newspaper
for a
when I finished school, they wrote on my

become a journalist." I didn't want them to
in fact
"He
Schreiber'
to
my
pay for
and
Liibeck,
be the editor of a Liibeck daily and later a deputy to the
Reichstag in Berlin.
O.K.:
So your
was
final goal
not journalism.
politics,
W.B.: Let's say political journalism plus politics.

O.F.
Politics or
power? Somewhere
I've
read a sentence you're sup-
when you were mayor
of Berlin: "Power is
way to do something sensible."
W.B.: I don't remember exactly, but it must have been something
like that.
said it during a friendly argument with my wife,
who was afraid that power was too important a responsibility.
Power ...
don't like the word power. It's a word that gives
rise to misunderstandings. In my case, I'd prefer the word inmaking it clear
fluence. But let's go ahead and say power
posed to have said

the only
that
we mean
it
in the
good sense. Well,
achieve something, you must be
something.
And
in
it's
obvious that
not necessarily the position of head of
though you can do
a lot as
head of
to
the position to achieve
state.
Provided
state,
.
Pro-
vided you remain so for a certain period of time.

O.F.
You've remained
so,
and you're prepared to stay there for a

I ask you: what is, what was your goal?
good period of time. So
Why
did you want power?
W.B.: Inside the country', to achieve a
mean
rium.
that
said social equilibrium, not equality. Outside, to
my
nation could have good neighborly relations
with East and West. Perhaps

giving
more modern way of
life.
higher level of democratization and social equilib-
Germany
might say
a foreign policy because
show
both
was interested
in
Germany had no
Willy Brandt
foreign policy. But
it's
bad
to
put
it
227
that way, since
explain that our foreign policy was
Germany and secondly
divided
still
of
first
Germany
of the
it
doesn't
that of a
all
torn apart by
would be more correct to say I was anxthe occupation. So

ious to have Germany settled in a European context, and with
neighborly relations at home and abroad.
it
O.F.:
1
suppose you're referring first of all to your Ostpolitik, the
opening toward the East. Chancellor Brandt, are you satisfied
with what you've achieved by your Ostpolitik?
When
W.B.: Almost.
look back,
might have handled

I'm
all
happy
fairly
two or three points that
But not too
myself that
to tell
uation where you can
tell
differently. All in
hope
an old man. Oh, mind you,
self-satisfied as
won't
feel too
there's never a sit-
yourself 1-couldn't-have-done-bet-
what he does is genwhich he finds himself

before you arrived, I was here with my
the United Nations, and he was telling me
seldom
Besides, a person
ter.
find
differently.
acts alone
erally the result of a vast process in
involved.
Still
ambassador
some
to
very flattering things about his contacts with the other
Including those from
ambassadors.
Eastern
think I've done a lot and intend to give
my upcoming
during
me.
mean
throw stones
They
O.F.:
was very glad
at
New
trip to
Europe.
They
good reception
York. Well, that pleased
know
to
me
that they're not going to
me.
didn't throw stones at
you even
in
Erfurt,
when you
went to East Germany. How did you feel in front of that

crowd that applauded you so enthusiastically?
W.B.:
was very moved but also frightened. Frightened for them,
I
for the risks they

I
excited.
O.F.:
were taking by
did nothing but
That
man
It
make
signs to
was dangerous
for
letting
them
like that.
them.
me to ask you a question

woman in power. Do you think
entitles
or
themselves go
so they wouldn't get too
I'd like to
put to every
that history
is
changed
because one individual comes along instead of another? In

other words, do you think that the
the
W.B.:
same
if
Germany
of today would be
Willy Brandt hadn't turned up?
think that individuals play a definite role in histor>. But
also think that
it's
stead of another.
make one
emerge
in-
talent that already existed, obviously.
I'll
situations that
talent
228
you an example.
give
out in 1939,
the Allies hadn't been so unprepared,
if
the invasion of
World War hadn't broken
the Second
If
Norway and Denmark
if after
Hitler hadn't launched
his attack on Holland, Belgium, and France, what would have

become of Winston Churchill? Would he have been an ex-
ceptional
man
all
the same, or wouldn't he rather have been a
somewhat querulous outsider with the habit of raising his

voice? What happened happened, and at the critical moment,
since Churchill was not too old, the British were able to rally
around him and have the advantage of
his immense ability.

mean? Does it mean that Churchill's importance would have been the same even if those events had
happened five years later, or does it mean that Churchill's im-
But what does
this
portance would have been
No,
five years later?
in
a certain situation,
would be able
to do.
those events had happened
less if
not easy to
it's
De Gaulle
And still
France could have done.

exist,
and certain individuals must
as that situation. If the individual
the
mechanism
set off
is
know
finding ourselves
if,
we're doing things that no one else
no one
did things
I
else in
must
same moment
say that a situation
exist at the
and the situation meet, then
by which history takes one direction
instead of another.
O.F.: Strange that
birth of
W.B.:
De
you
cite
De
Gaulle, the
man who
delayed the
Europe.
Gaulle was a great man, the only
man
capable of freeing
complex that the Second World

War had caused it. The only one capable of making it a great
power honoris causa. If one looks on Europe with the concept
of a United States of Europe, then he was certainly not a supporter. But the astonishing fact remains that, under him, the
France from the
inferiority
European Community went forward instead of being dismantled. He could have stopped it and instead he let it go on.
We mustn't put all the blame on him. And when we speak of
Ostpolitik
O.F.:
The
Ostpolitik
is
Brandt, because
it's
Brandt
who went
to the
East.
W.B.: Yes, but
someone else could have developed

Even if I hadn't begun that policy in
was foreign minister, someone else
don't deny that
a policy similar to mine.
1967 and 1968 when
229
Willy Brandt
would have done it later. Albeit under less favorable conditions. It had to be done, otherwise Germany would have remained in a corner and in contradiction with the policy already undertaken by its most important allies. Namely the
United States and France. Oh, believe me, the individual
must be there but the
were a Marxist
W.B.:
thought
as a
young man
socialist as
O.F.:
too.
argument. Chancellor Brandt, you
young man, weren't you?

I worked hard enough
was. But I'm not sure
become one. Too

as a
must be there
situation
O.F.: That's almost a Marxist
bad.
becoming
excellent preparation for
is
to
should have. Because to be a Marxist

a
good
an old one.
Anyway you were
a left-wing socialist. Well, what's left in
of the socialism you dreamed of
when you were
you
tempestuous
and enthusiastic youth?

W.B.: Look, a good portion of that socialism has
become
reality. If
compare the conditions in which the people lived then and

live now, I have to conclude that a good portion of material
security has
What remains
been achieved.
to
be accomplished
permanent commitment of socialism. Not only as

regards wages, which are important too, but as regards the
today
the
is
don't know if
human personality.
make myself clear. One must know what to do with one's life.
And
you see, as a young man didn't know that socialthought socialism was
ism is a permanent commitment.
strengthening of the
something
to put into practice
prove on. Instead
it's
and then,
if
much, much more.
anything, to im-
It's
bining freedom and justice and solidarity in a

that never ends.
Socialism
learns to be a sailor, even
the sea. Because

the horizon
is
on
becomes
so
always
many
very quickly
line.
When
the ship moves, the
farther on, always farther on, until
horizons that arc always new. Oh, yes.
That's
and
which wc always
to
who
boy and has never seen
his first voyage, the sailor discovers that
how
like a sailor
he's only a
not a boundary
horizon moves too

it
is
if
way of comcommitment
see socialism
like a
horizon we'll never reach
try to get closer.
what degree were you influenced by

Scandinavian socialism? Or rather, were you influenced by it?
W.B.: Yes, of course. Take a country like Norway. A country that's
O.F.:
Chancellor Brandt,
to
30
been so important
to
me.
One
of the best experiences
I've
had
Norway the peasants

have never been slaves. Never. The peasant movement remains at the base of their modern democracy and
that
has been to hve in Norway, because in
me. There I discovered the elements of

which humanitarian socialism can't exist.
certainly influenced
liberalism without
Chancellor Brandt,
O.F.:
and
Oh, he wouldn't
W.B.:
know
that your eldest son
is
Maoist
and perhaps
himself a Maoist.
call
Marxist-Leninist.
He
says he's a Marxist
He's twenty-five years old
now, an adult man, and he no longer represents the young
who
rebels
The
O.F.:
themselves Maoists. Even
call
from the ideas of
different
question
Do you
though.
if
his ideas are very
his father.
to ask you still holds good

young people of today a certain inblindness to what has been done so that
was getting ready

find in the
gratitude, or a certain
they could live in a better world?

w.B.
No.
wouldn't put
make
don't
it
young people today
that way. Because
the comparison between today's reality and yester-
The misery, for example, in which we were

drowning during and after the war. Most of them weren't even
born when we were drowning in that miser}', and so they compare the reality of today with the possibilities of tomorrow.
day's misery.
You
mean? They don't reason like ourselves, who

we have today on one pan of the scales and on the
what we had in 1945 and 1946. Then we weigh it and
what
see
put what
other
"We've done
say,
well, we've
done
good job."
When
talk
young people of today, I defend what

none of you can take away our pride in havgood deal. But I don't expect them to identify with
face to face with the
we've done.
say,
ing
done
my
problems, since they aren't their problems.
my times
my children
The result is I
And this happens
advantage that we avoid argu-
defend
and they defend
with
too, with the
theirs.
ments. We've never had very many,

spent so
I've
.
If
us
But when
pay
me
it
is
little
my
eldest son,
must
...
who
so
to analyzing the
engaged,
isn't
mine."
"My
we
because
home.
comes to
at
don't quarrel.
which each of
problem isn't yours, and
moral category
cut things short:
say, also
seldom
lives in Berlin,
a visit or spends his vacation with us,
comes
yours
time with them
in
Willy Brandt
It's
231
made you
extraordinary that politics hasn't
Chan-
cynical,
cellor.
No, no. Never! You surely run the risk of becoming

when you achieve power. But I've always succeeded
and then overcoming it.

Even when Adenauer attacked you with such
cynical
in
con-
trolling
:
stressed the fact that
you were an
illegitimate son, that
taken Norwegian citizenship, that

:
ferocity
and
you had
behaved very badly with me. And yet,

on the personal level, he never showed any
hostility. Though he said all those ugly things about me, he
had a kind of sympathy for me. And I, though I strongly
disagreed with his methods and politics, had great respect for
him. During the election campaign of I96I, and right in the
Adenauer
really
strangely enough,
middle of
that mudslinging,
all
Right here where
we
are
now and he was
you're sitting
me
he called
now. Or
rather,
sitting
was
to
his office.
sitting
here where I'm
where
sitting.
it seem right
on an election campaign
the way you're doing?" He answered, "But, Mr. Mayor! I
don't understand what you're talking about! Do you think I
have anything against you? Not at all! If I had something
against you, I'd call you aside and we'd talk about it." So I
didn't react. Or not as I'd reacted in the campaign he'd
launched against me in 1957 and 1958. Then the whole business was repeated in 1965, and this time
really got mad.
no
longer wanted to run in the elections.
said to my party:
Right away
does
to you,
said to
it
seem
him, "Mr. Chancellor, does
sensible, to carry
"That's enough; I'm too heavy a burden for your shoulders.

Better to leave the candidacy to
And
was
it
at that
Sometimes you have

tomobile
else.
withdraw."
to
slow
down
or actually stop the au-
up speed. In 1966 my party held its

ended with unanimous support for Brandt,
in order to pick
convention.
and
someone
point that things began to go well for me.
It
And Brandt became foreign minister, then chancellor, and

won the Nobel Peace Prize. Chancellor Brandt, is it
true that you cried when you received the news?
then even
No,
me
me
that's
an exaggeration. No.
the prize, and
when
Ahlers,
I'd
heard that they would give
one of
a sheet of paper with the news,
my
assistants,
said nothing.
handed
took the
2 32
and went on writing sonne notes.

The Bundestag met that day and
Certainly I was moved.
paper, put
in a drawer,
it
But
O.F.:
didn't cry at
Do you
all.
never cry?
become an adult. Very rarely. I may

happy or unhappy or moved. Look
like most Nor-
W.B.: Very rarely since I've

feel
isn't
alien to
And
in the
me, but
romantic,
always
try to
prefer to laugh. Especially
evening and
am
weakness of mine.
The
who
I'm sentimental.
dics,
trouble
is
with
you
conceal
when
friends.
I
I
like.
So emotion
Or
it.
control
it.
drink a glass of wine

like to tell jokes.
It's
them all and often invent them.

laugh at them more than the people
collect
often
my
if
are listening.
it seems to me almost impossible that

you can speak of the Nobel Prize with such detachment. Not
many politicians receive the Nobel Prize and
W.B.: That's because there aren't many good politicians, and because the committee has to be careful not to offend anyone. In
O.F.: That's all very nice, but
my
case, they chose the right
when
the Nobel,
You want
derstand.
faction of
I
my
to
portant,
list
still
know
No.
life.
didn't react to
through the
when
moment, namely, the moment

number of people. In
they would have offended the least
fact, despite
but
It
it
if
have a
of people
who have won

is
Anyway
me
when he was
it
of friends. Yes,
un-
satis-
was something that encouraged me,

by dancing up and down. If I run
think that the Nobel Prize
wasn't like giving
lot
the Nobel was the greatest
to give
to Carl
prizes,
and even
considered the most imthe Nobel Peace Prize
von Ossietzky. They gave
it
to
him
camp, and he was taken out

of that concentration camp only to be kept under arrest in the
hospital where he died. Ossietzky was a symbol, a martyr. I'm
really not a martyr and I wasn't suffering at all when I got the
in a concentration
prize.
on the word suffering. Chancellor Brandt. And I'll

ask you something I've wanted to ask since the beginning of
this conversation. Have you suffered from the fact of not
knowing who your father was?
W.B.: No. I haven't suffered from it, no. If instead of did I "suffer,"
you were to ask me was I "affected" by it, then that's different.
O.F.: I'm seizing
Willy Brandt
And
But
say yes.
long time that
my
to build
did affect me, that goes back such a
if it
almost forgotten about
I've
by myself.
life
my own, mine
233
it.
began so early
began so early
have
to
name
of
no accident that I've always considered the name I carry as my real name. Literally. And then it's
not correct to say didn't know who my father was. I'll tell you
something I've never told anyone. Anyone ... I knew who
my father was. I knew his name. But I never wanted to meet
him. He was still alive after the end of the war. But not even
only.
It's
then was
W.B.:
O.F.:
of resentment?
don't know.
you the
facts
and
understand.
When
me "Why did
Yes.
Out of
don't care to
respect for your mother?
comment on my
attitude.
give
that's all.
And
suppose then that your mother has been
very important in your
w.B.
meeting him.
interested in
Why? Out
O.F.:
life.
was a child,
a boy, yes.
you become
a socialist?"
In fact,
I
when
they ask
my
women
meetings, my
answer: through
mother. Even though she was very young, and though
were even forbidden
to participate in political
union movement. And so not
mother was
active in the trade
only was
born into socialism and trade unionism
where
grew up. With very strong
Do you
roots.
see
that's
what
mean? It wasn't to my credit. It was to hers.

O.F.: Maybe you've become Willy Brandt just because you had no
father
W.B.:
That
and did have such
mother.
don't know. I've never been to a psychoanalyst and
can't answer you.
subconsciously,
have had
all
but
can only say

this
don't
I've
had the impression
has had an influence. Yes,
know
to
what
extent. Besides
if
it
I
that,
must
look at
myself at all clearly, I can say that my attitude toward life has
been influenced more by reading than by people. Aside from
my mother, of course. To the question, "Which is the writer,
the politician, the
you?"
find
And
possible.
much."
I've
it
man who
has had the greatest impact on
very difficult to give an answer.

I
don't
end up
saying, "I've read a
know even how
to
connect the
read with the circumstances in
raised.
But what's more significant
I'm not interested in bringing
my
is
which
that
Or
lot,
rather,
I've
im-
read so
effect of
what
was born and
don't care about
unconscious
it.
to the surface.
2 34
Chancellor Brandt, are you religious?
O.F.:
W.B.:
Hm.
The way
interpret religion
is
completely nonorth-
No, I'm not an
simply interpret what people
God
those
who
to reveal
That
atheist.
if
that's
what you want
or transcendental problems in a different
And
go to church.
because
it,
O.F.:
odox, but I'm not an atheist
because
myself completely.
I've
know.
call
manner from
usually don't like to talk about
...
to
In short,
it's
against
wouldn't succeed even
my
nature
if
tried.
well understood. Chancellor Brandt. I've never in-
terviewed a
man
and modest
so reserved
as you.
One can
talk
with you about ever\'thing except Willy Brandt.

W.B.:
You must remember
that
come from the Baltic, that I'm

Norway had a great effect
half sailor, and that those years in
on me. And so to absolve myself, I'll tell you a joke, a Norwegian one of course, that might have been invented just for
me. On a mountain above a fiord there lived two peasants.
Each one on his own. One day, one of the two peasants goes
to visit the other. He enters his house and says nothing. He
barely nods his head. Nor does the other one say anything. He
doesn't even nod his head. But he glances toward the sideboard, where there's a bottle of aquavit. The peasant who's
come to visit understands. He goes to the sideboard and takes
the aquavit; he takes two glasses. He puts them on the table.
He
pours the aquavit.
silence,
slowly,
one
The two
start
drinking.
glass after another.
grunt to interrupt this
dumb
show.
They
drink in
There's not even a
But,
at the
last
sip of
come to visit raises his glass and

mumbles, ''Skoal." Then the other one explodes. "You stupid
bastard! Did we get together to drink or to talk nonsense?"
aquavit, the peasant who's
o.F.
won't say skoal to you, Chancellor Brandt. But
arrivederci
and thank you?
Bonn, September 1973
may
say
IO
Nenni
Pietro
^^--
Locked
in
an ivory tower that hardly
now seldom
him, the grand old
suits
man
which he has dedicated over three-quarters of his more than eighty years and given
everything a man can give. Even a daughter, dead in the extermiparticipates in the political
camp
mon
nation
''Dites a
that
times
to
of Auschwitz after writing to her French comrades:

pere que
his
is
house
ideas).
He
Rome and
in
go to the Senate.
nai jamais
je
never betrayed his
life to
trahi ses ides" (Tell
leaves this ivory tower,
at others his villa in
They have made him
He
drawer.
lost
it
hall
in
it
it.
He
and unconfessed
1968 he was heard
bitterness
was
and he
the
In the Socialist
when convenient,
lost his battle
disgust.
at
be folded up and put away in a
did not succeed in unifying
badly,
congress
a flag to be unfurled
to
life,
he who was on
point of being elected president of the Republic.

party of today he counts as
and when not convenient
father
which
Formia, only
senator for
has accepted the office with great hesitation
my
to
and
Leaving the
murmur, "Here
have had much

Age has imparted him only the image of a
tired patriarch, for the rest he still is in excellent shape. He gets up
every morning at seven and reads the newspapers while pedaling on
Nenni has no more
to say,
much
friends."
glass
He
He would
still
to give.
his bicycle exerciser for a
lometers.
pity.
time equivalent
does not worry about his
of wine or a coffee.
He
to
an excursion of
diet,
five ki-
nor deny himself a
plays bocce with the enthusiasm of a

235
236
young boy. And the doctors look

But best of
mind remains.
He
spends
him with incredulous
bom
him
functions for
It still
much
working on
lessly
at
in this lion's organism,
all,
computer.
like a
of his time studying and writing.
book that
is
supposed
stupor.
not to surrender, the
He
is
end-
be his autobiography,
to
but given his modesty in speaking about himself, will end by being
something
He wants
else.
to call
it
Witness
to
a Century.
Many
wonder if on arriving at the last chapter, someday, he will finally

say what today he does not want to say or says unclearly: namely
that his socialism is no longer the one of fifty years ago, nor even
the one of twenty-five years ago. For now it is a socialism that
rejects
dogmas,
programs,
abstract
formulas;
in
in
democracy,
pardonable heresies for a true Marxist.
If
you
faith in
he changes the subject. Or
resorts to twisted
try to
and
is
in
is
truth does
not ruled only by
is no different from private capitalmore despotic since it evades the laws
state capitalism
some ways
still
of criticism, of the market, of competition.

dictatorship of the proletariat
can
is
arguments, vague ad-
not escape you: he has realized that the world
economics, that
it
in
which he then immediately withdraws. But the
missions,
ism,
return
man. Unpin him down,
freedom,
nourished by a blind
fight the Fiat
is
He
nothing but
company but not
the state
has realized that the
catchword, that you

as
was shown by the
Danzig and Szczecin, by the intellectuals

thrown into prisons or madhouses in Moscow and Leningrad. "I
feel more at ease in Stockholm than in Leningrad," he says. And
that is the only uncompromising statement by which he dares to
break his reticence. He has become enamored of Swedish social-
workers massacred
at
which has not abolished private property but has given man
more than what doctrinaire and scientific socialism has given. And,
ism,
perhaps, his youthful love for an anarchism interpreted as the de-
Who can say how

may have cost him and still does?
how much anguish, caused by his
fense of the individual has re-emerged in him.
much torment
Or how many
such a discovery
sleepless nights,
whose teacher he has been for two generaApproaching the end of his life, he suffers a tragedy compato the tragedy of theologians who discover they no longer
scruples toward those

tions.
rable
God. Or no longer believe

believe in God.
asked him to talk to me, out of his
believe in
still
I
in the
Church, even
lucidity
if
they
and wisdom, and
to
Nenni
Pietro
explain to
me what
is
happening
237
in the Italy
And
of the 1970s.
this
and was broken up
in a conversation that lasted several days
he did
into several meetings. His health is not perfect; he has heart trouble
and cannot endure prolonged exertion. So I met him in his house
in Formia, where he goes for weekends or whenever else he can, or
house
in his
had played
Rome, on
the top floor of a building in the Piazza
generally talked for a while in the morning, after he
game, and stopped when
his bocce
We
lunch.
in
We
Adriana.
ate
in
French wine, and then he took
we resumed our
it
was time
to
go
to
helped along by a good
fashion,
leisurely
Toward four or five o'clock

way of speaking. He
a nap.
conversation, slowly, like his
answered each question with exasperating slowness, separating one
word from another
though he were dictating
as
commas, and paying no
lingering over periods and
And
clock.
caught
so dusk
ideas that nevertheless
turn on the light.
I'll
in this prolix process
us,
me
enchanted
always
of words and
to the point of forgetting to
remember
a session that
ended
dark,
and neither of us had realized that darkness had
were
in his
a desk, a bookcase,
came
and scolded
in
us.
and two
"What's
is
just as
small but
over the day bed,
is
We
a
chairs. Pina, his housekeeper,
this?
Do we
sit
around talking
somewhat resembles
a large portrait in oils of his
there are the photographs of Vittoria,
like
Rome,
the blind?" At other times twilight caught us in his study in
which
in the
fallen.
room furnished only with
study in Formia, a small
day bed,
secretary,
to
attention to the
a sanctuary.
Here,
dead wife and then
the daughter
who
died
at
Auschwitz. But not ordinary photographs from happy times: photos

taken upon her entrance into the extermination camp, wearing a
prisoner's striped
face
and one
never
gown, and with
in profile.
to forget at
I've
number
at
the bottom.
One
full
always wondered why. Perhaps so as
any moment, and even
less at
the
moment
of
closing his eyes in sleep or reopening them, the sacrifice of his
daughter?
Our meetings
in the
Rome
study were primarily to go
over and discuss the transcription of the dialogues recorded on tape

in
Formia.
It's
not easy to interview Pietro Nenni, as anyone
knows.
journalist himself,
who
has tried
instead of letting himself be
it
inter-
viewed, he would prefer to do the interviewing and then draft the

article
every
so
himself
as to
measure every sentence, every adjective,
comma, and perhaps immediately
afterward to strike every-
238
thing out and
When
writes.
He
over again.
start all
is
never
with what he
satisfied
he was the editor of Avanti!, the
he
socialist daily,
compose his pieces in type, against the clock, so

as to keep himself from making corrections in extremis. So just
imagine his being satisfied with what he says into a tape recorder.
"I don't much care for that machine of yours, it's dangerous." If
you interview him in successive stages, as I did, next day you find
him submerged in a sea of slips of paper covered with scribbles,
forced himself to
corrections, afterthoughts. Raising his wrinkled forefinger, he reads
them, and unfailingly
is
it
new
to
it
you,
and having dictated
Copiously. "Cut out that
/.
out those theys and put we.
when
was
it
And
honesty.
he
is
is
such
also
it,
told you:
he dictates
adds supplementary changes.
not good to keep saying
You'd
/,
/,
Cut
/.
like
to get
angry and instead

a professor of
a professor of generosity: in
judging others
He begged me
not to write an
man
he never liked because of the connot to seem unjust. ''After
for others, so as
weren't for him,
it,
not good to put the blame on others
always afraid of offending them.
tempt he showed
what he had
such an honorable man, such
opinion about Churchill, a
it
It's
It's
my own."
also
you're moved: he
version of
But rather than reading
verified, expurgated, ruined.
we wouldn't be here today
Churchill, Joseph Stalin, Charles de Caulle,
to talk."
Mao
all,
if
Winston
Tse-tung, Nikita
Richard M. Nixon, Antonio

John
Gramsci, Filippo Turati, Enrico Malatesta, Queen Elizabeth all
have passed through his life and not superficially. ''I remember
Mao Tse-tung saying to me ... remember De Gaulle saying to
me ..." And the time he, a republican, was supposed to ride in
Khrushchev,
F.
Kennedy,
the golden carriage of
"No, don't make
me
Her Royal Highness the
think of
it."
And
Princess Margaret:
the time they wanted to seat
Greek ambassador at an official dinner. And he infelt

seat. "Ah, what agony, what a pain.
sick to my stomach." To listen to him is a pleasure that should be
taken as a gift. To write what you have listened to, on the other
hand, is a torment that can only be taken as a punishment.
So when I sat down to compose this interview, I found myself
faced with a problem of conscience: to compose it in my way or in
him next
to the
dignantly changed his
his
way, to recount everything he had told
me
before his after-
thoughts or to report only what his excessive scruples had insisted
on?
No
small problem
when you
respect a
man
to the
degree that
Nenni
Pietro
him and
respect
And
dut>'.
same time beHeve
at the
for several days
dilemma by
in
agonized over
what he wanted and then deciding

resolved the
239
to
own work as in a
now deciding to do
your
it,
disobey him. In the end
posing the interview in the way that seemed right to me, while
the
It
same time accepting some of
his
had betrayed neither
beginning of a friendship
see,
in
possible dreams.
who
It
which
was also
And
thoughts nor himself.
it
take the greatest pride.
his ideas, doubts,
reflected in myself,
daughter
his
at
recommendations.
me
worked. After reading the published interview, Nenni told
that
compromise. Namely by com-
a kind of
uncertainties,
was the
I
like to
and im-
a great relief because, as Vittoria, his
died at Auschwitz because she was his daughter, un-
derstood, above
all
crime
many have
moment when
they should
he must not be betrayed,
committed. Far too many. Even
at the
have been honoring him by electing him president of the Republic.
He would have made a splendid president of the Republic, and it

would have done us good to have him in the Quirinale. But they
didn't let him, they didn't let us.
His friends
still
more than
his
enemies.
ORIANA FALLACI:
In an
interview in Europeo,
"Who
of the Italians,
said
you're the
first
Arthur Schlesinger
can ever understand you
when
not to understand yourselves?" Senator Nenni,
I'm here to ask you to help us understand ourselves and what

is
happening today
pessimist,
know.
PIETRO NENNI: No, I'm

mediate events
I'll
me
say
it
will
in Italy.
Still
You have
when
a pessimist
if
you ask
the reputation of being a
me
it
comes
to evaluating
if you ask
become, then
believe in man, in his ca-
probably be something unpleasant. But
optimist. That's because
pacity to improve.
ning and end of
man,
is
im-
what's going to happen tonight,
what's going to happen in the years to
come an
It's
because
things.
all
consider
man
as the begin-
Because I'm convinced that he,
always the decisive proof, and that only by changing
man do you change

in
political
society. In sixty-five years of participating
struggles,
improving myself
as
my problem
a man and of
has always been that of
helping
my comrades
in
240
arms
make
to
the
derstand man.
same
effort.
And when
It's
not impossible,
if
you un-
Schlesinger says you can't under-
making
stand the Itahans, he's just
more incomprehensible than
They're no
a wisecrack.
others,
and no worse.
It's
only
that they have great difficulty in rationalizing their collective

life and in taking certain threats seriously. The unsuccessful
coup by Valerio Borghese, for example. Obviously the danger
is not Valerio Borghese in himself and for himself. The danger
is the breakdown of the democratic state
a breakdown we encourage by doing and undoing things, thus running the risk of
letting ourselves
phenomena
be overtaken by such
as Valerio
Borghese.
admit
O.F.: You'll
hard to take a Valerio Borghese seriously, or
it's
even a dictatorship headed by Valerio Borghese.

P.N.:
You remind me
crisis:
of
all
"But you take
because you were
who
the people
in jail
said, in the
Mussolini too seriously!
this
with him. But
1920-1922
It
must be
how can a fellow like

no man who can set
government? There's
up a dictatorship in Italy!" What does it mean, "There's no
man"? You don't need an exceptional individual to make him
the symbol of a situation! All you need is some fanatic, some
supposedly harmless eccentric, some conceited type out for
success. Besides what was Mussolini in 1920, and even in
1921 and twenty-two? He'd received four thousand votes in
that take over the
the elections of 1919
four
thousand votes
he'd practically controlled since 1913,
He was
of Avanti!.
more
I
was
afraid
a city
when he became
editor
ready to run off to Switzerland; he had
than
faith in that possibility
and forming
Milan,
in
government.
And
he would. Because
or rather condottieri,
in the idea
went
knew
when
that
can operate within a
Rome
of going to
instead he
to
Rome. As
adventurers,
sick society, any-
thing becomes possible.
So
it's
irresponsible to smile
Mussolini?
Where
today
is
vented. Hitlers get invented.

are a
a
hundred newspapers
pope
to declare,
Churchill to
state,
and
say.
Where
And
to invent
to repeat daily,
"He's the
"He's the
the will of the Italians." As
today
is
there a
there a Hider? Mussolinis get in-
man
first
one
all
you need
"He's a great man,"
of Providence," perhaps a
man
behind
whom
sense
happened with Mussolini. So why
Nenni
Pietro
same way, invent
can't one, in the
former prince and colonel,
boat
commander? Certainly
241
a Valerio Borghese,
a sinker
coup looks
his unsuccessful
caricature of a coup dtat: you don't occupy

ing the Palazzo Chigi
Not unless
who
is
of ships and ex-torpedo
Italy
by occupy-
and the RAI radio and television
there's complicity within
the state,
like a
for
station.
instance
support from the armed forces and the police, something that
could happen today only on a very reduced scale and thanks

complicity
at the top.
only after receiving the king's telegram inviting him
train
there's Saragat.
is
O.F.:
no king today
And anyway that's not the
But
the Quirinale.
to
Mussolini took the
Let's not forget that
there's
in
to
the Quirinale,
point.
The
point
One moment.
Senator Nenni. You're upholding
theory. You're saying there are similarities
1971 and the

P.N.: Yes, to
some
Italy
of 1922.
a dreadful
between the
Italy
of
that so?
Is
The Italy of 1971 is not the Italy of 1922,

we didn't know fascism and now we
well, nor are we ready to go through it a sec-
extent.
of course. At that time
know
it
only too
ond time. But

between the
the one
there's
Italy
one point
that
shows
of seventy-one and the
indicated to the Senate
when
striking similarities
Italy
of twenty-two
reminded
it
that
what
ruined us in 1922 was not the offensive strength of fascism.
was the weakness of the ruling

divisions that
Giolitti
what
was waiting
maybe
spite,
and
It
false
It
was the petty

hopes
among
believed in the danger. Everyone waited.

in
Vichy, pondering no one knows exactly
the awful words of Cromwell: "Things will have
worse before
to get
many
promoted jealousy,
No one
politicians.
political class.
we can expect them
to get better."
How
same thing? And don't

they also risk waking up one fine day, or rather one bad da\
without being able to do anything more about it? Let's not
forget that one night in 1967 the Athenians went to bed with
politicians today are thinking the
their eyes
and ears
still
full
of popular demonstrations for old
Papandreou, and woke up next morning with the colonels
in
power.
O.F.:
But
Italy
is
not Greece, Senator Nenni.
And
in Italy the left
is
strong.
P.N.:
We
were also strong
in
1920
it's
not enough to be strong.
242
One must know how
prevent certain things by making the
to
the government, the padiament function, and not go
state,
postponing,
made
we've
postponing
postponing,
too
many
For years
talking about fascism,
lance.
They
on deaf
at the
time said
and called
And
left."
slowness, meanness.
spite,
I
better too
don't listen to me. These words of
summer
ears in the
it
we found out
of 1964. In
fact,
mine
also
fell
the communists
was talking about an ''imaginary danger,"
a "diversion to
yet
on
which
to
now tell you: when you're

much than too little vigi-
been repeating what
I've
practice
concessions in recent years. For years
been warning against jealousy,
I've
conceal the failures of the center-
was expounding
later
about
mands. Look, how
is
it
real facts. Just
SIFAR
think of what
and certain military com-
possible that in Reggio Calabria that
Franco Ciccio or Ciccio Franco or whatever

able to play the role of Masaniello?
How
is
it
his
name
is
was
possible that the
away from Aquila? These were municipal revolts

mind you, they took as their target the headquarters of
parties stayed
and,
parties and the government. Not the headquarters of

MSI.* So the point to be examined, as I said, is not
Valerio Borghese, but rather what made Valerio Borghese
think that a sudden attack on the Palazzo Chigi and the radio
and television station could be transformed into a coup dtat
and receive the thanks of the state?
the
leftist
the
there an answer?
O.F.:
Is
P.N.:
Of
course there
Here
is!
on the help they'd
get
too, as in 1922, the fascists
from the
eternal right, the right that has
right.
little
The
counted
classical right, the
voting strength but pos-
economic power, and has leverage in the administration

and the armed forces. The right that would like to reabsorb the
sesses
moderate forces of the Christian Democrats. The
would
cline.
like to re-establish a
The
makes use of the
right that
provocation because
bourgeois order that's
it
fascists as
needs disorder, that
is,
always useful to the enemies of democracy.

*
Servizio Informazioni Forze
Informazioni
della
Difesa,
Armate
military
della Repubblica;
now
Disorder
even useful
Movimento
is
to
called SID, Servizio
counterespionage organization.
(Translator's
note.)
*
in de-
an element of
fear.
It's
right that
now
Sociale Italiano, the neofascist party. (Translator's note.)

Nenni
Pietro
who can
the communists,
just
how
imagine
O.F.
what our poH-
to the right. That's
when
they play at making
That's what our youth groups outside
when by
don't understand
tionaries
thus pose as defenders of legaHty, so
it is
understand
ticians don't
refomis.
useful
243
artificial
Parliament
their violence they help the reac-
and the MSI.
Senator Nenni, do you think
MSI
right for the
it's
be
in
with
all
to
Parliament?
P.N.:
No,
don't think
one more mistake by us

seriously.
who
Italians,
keep
the Constitution,
its
it
prerogatives:
it
bom
was
have accepted
to
was
it
never take things too
Yes, even in the case of the
state failed to
which
MSI
Because the
right.
it's
the characteristics of a fascist party
MSI
our democratic
did not apply Rule 12 of
Law
didn't even apply the Scelba
of 1952,
explicitly forbids the formation of organizations or par-
ties that
renew
importance
fascist type,
ties
since
Anyway
with fascism.
to the fact that in

I
give only relative
Parliament there's a party of the
The
see things in political terms.
fascists
you can dissolve when and how you like that's not enough to
suppress them. To suppress them you have to pull up the social, political, and psychological roots that produce fascism.
And
these roots
still
haven't been pulled up in
Italy,
only cut
at the surface.
O.F.
That's just what
wanted
position the Italians
Fascism
therefore
is
it
of
first
to get to.
show toward
all
contempt
violence,
doesn't only
come
Senator Nenni: the predisthis disease called fascism.
democracy
Don't you
for
dressed in black.
think that these roots that have never been pulled up also
flower into the violence of extremists on the
P.N.: Yes, the youngsters
who
call
left?
themselves Maoists, Trotskyites,

true.
And
examples, pretexts, they nourish hatred and
fear,
neoanarchists indulge in violence,
it's
izing that they have nothing to gain by hatred
one shouldn't confuse them with the

an extremist movement
it's
fascism,
fascists.
that's
so they offer
without
and
Fascism
all.
real-
fear.
is
But
not
Fascism
is
what we went through under Mussolini, under the Sal Republic. It doesn't want to advance the world, it wants to make
it
go backward.
mean, an
of fascist violence
may
be,
act of
yes,
Maoist violence and an act

the
same
thing,
but only
244
roughly speaking. Morally and historically there's a great

ference.
The
fascists
to a
them
the
recent tradition of our country and have behind

forces of reaction; the so-called
because they don't go beyond
The
them
ideas that inspire
Maoists are not dangerous
a revolt that after all
explode in France in
May
is
childish.
are not despicable but Utopian
or rather European,
outside Italian,
dif-
are dangerous because they go back
1968.
What
We
reality.
and
saw them
did they get by
it?
Just
what they were after. May 1968 was enough to

bring about an involution of French society and bring it back
to its conservative foundations. If today in France you have a
Gaullism without De Gaulle, and it has power and keeps it,
the opposite of
this
is
many
also
owing
people.
to the
reminded the Senate of
Lenin: "Above
And when
P.N.:
Oh,
by
no.
it
These
Turin?
in
It
was
that occasion.
a little incident of intolerance.
One
fear."
to heart.
Nenni the raspberry, as

way they behaved with you on
was
It
at all.
it
they give a
despicable the
sentence from
beware of arousing useless
all
youngsters ought to take

O.F.:
youth movement that frightened so
wasn't upset
of their comrades had been arrested and they
were protesting against anyone representing the authority of

the government. For them I was the government, and responsible for the arrest.
Let's not forget that
young
extremists
are the historical result of all the authoritarianism that

find in every social system, in
in trouble if at the
you
every organized society. You're
age of twenty you reason with the mentality
someone eighty years old like me. Or even with the mentality of someone forty. Believe me, my indulgence toward them
doesn't come from discouragement, it comes from a knowl-
of
edge of history. In our society the

revolt
this
comes and goes
phenomenon
in precise cycles
at the
of youthful
beginning of
century the revolt of young people was one of the strongest
movements.
It
was
all
there,
even then, and on an interna-
tional scale: antimilitarism, anticlericalism, futurism, the gen-
We too rebelled
terms. We too didn't
eration gap between parents and children.

against our families,
though
in different
accept the words of the peasant mother
and
said,
who shook
"Never mind, things have always been
her head
like this
and
Pietro
always will."
remember
it
Nenni
245
very well
was one of the most
outraged participants in that revolt.

O.F.: History repeats
P.N.:
Of
itself, after all,
course he's
conditions but
tremist
trade
it
and Giambattista Vico
History doesn't repeat
right.
repeats
itself.
unionism,
right.
is
the
itself in
same
At that time too there was ex-
then too they resorted
wildcat
to
The most typical demonstration was called the match

strike, when they set fire to the crops. In Bologna, Parma,
Modena. The class struggle, at that time, was mainly the
struggle of peasants and day laborers. The culmination for us
strikes.
was Red Week, which
had the good fortune
side of Enrico Malatesta.
Aquila as a result of
Before Red
Week,
to direct along-
Court of Assizes
in the
accused of an attack on the
it,
in 1909,
for the anarchist
strike
ended up
we had
tried a great international
They
Francisco Ferrer.
Barcelona, for intention to
commit
in
state.
a crime,
him
shot
and
in
was one of
the sponsors of that strike in the city of Carrara, then anarchist
and republican.
war
In Forl
also sponsored the strike against the
in Tripoli.
We
believed in strikes as the
means
for
render of the capitalist forces, and also as a

ing war and guaranteeing peace
these crises in
current crises.
among
obtaining the sur-
means
nations.
for prevent-
...
repeat:
which everything is called into question are reSometimes they take cultural forms, sometimes
social ones, but essentially they're the
same
thing. In
my
time
we looked to Georges Sorel, to his Rflexiones sur la violence.

Today they look to Mao's thoughts. Whether inspired by Mao
or Sorel, the phenomenon always goes back to the same law.
The law by which young people are a component in the development of societies. The boys and girls of today think they've
invented the world.
Youngsters always think that the world
begins with them.

O.F.
Senator Nenni, your revolt emerged from
and oppression
don't you feel
that's
a state
of poverty
not even comparable to that of today. So
that your
violence was
more
justified
than
theirs?
P.N.:
me
of an article
been written about the "moderate" Nenni
the man of
Undoubtedly. And your question reminds

that's
246
Red Week who today

acknowledged
article
my
me,
dear friend.
defend, and in
exists
Today no one can

and
time we had nothing
open
really
is
my
In
time
it
demon-
to
didn't exist.
you from transforming the present
stop
my
to
Or
defend.
at all to
in
civil
time you were stopped. In short, every
freedom should include the defense of freedoms
struggle for
already gained, and
when
look
at the
young people of today
I'm sorry about only one thing: that they
let
ruined by the resurgent myth of violence.
midwife of
It
to organize,
to think,
everyone.
to
social order. In
me.
Because today we have something
Today freedom
very litde.
strate
my
This
asks that violence be rehnquished.

a logical continuity in
history, yes
right conditions of
at present in
themselves be
Violence
but only when you
exercise
in the
time and place. Such conditions don't
our country. Violence
is
a response to
the
is
it
exist
abuses that
you no other way to claim justice, yes but we have

means of struggle against what survives of those abuses
today. If these young people were to conduct their action on
the plane of ideas, it would be much more effective. The troumany of these rebels are
ble is that not all of them have ideas
leave
other
the
industrialists
many
and the bourgeoisie of tomorrow.
of the rebels
became
tury later
me, sometimes
who exploded
fascists,
wonder
at
fascist ministers.
Believe
their explosions in the streets
universities aren't a passing fashion, a
a price paid to
as
the beginning of the cen-
and even
if
Just
way of
and
letting off steam,
momentary resentments, rather than the conwhich in great part they belong.
sidered rejection of a world to

O.F.:
They
them
on democracy. Senator Nenni. It's not unusual for

on the Resistance. Through Mao they take as
their model a society with which we have nothing in common. Now, you who have been to China and met Mao Tsetung
spit
to spit
P.N.: Yes,
but
it's
not by brief contact with an
unknown country
man. I
don't have much faith in such trips. You see, Khrushchev
once told me that Stalin knew very little about Russia, and
that
we
get to understand a revolution, a system, or a
when he saw my astonishment, he explained, ''We made films

for him and then showed them to him. Scenes of city and
answered jokingly, "The
country life all concocted." And
Nenni
Pietro
247
show us when we come to Russia." That's

know much about the Soviet Union, even
after having been there. And we don't know much about
China after having been there. For instance, how can you get
same
how
things you
it
We
is.
don't
behind the mystery of

tion? Insofar as
to
it
phase of the Chinese revolu-
this recent
can be seen
as a Hbertarian revolt,
be something positive. But has
it
been only
seems
it
a matter of a
As
libertarian revolt? We'll find out in the future.
Mao
for
moment you approach Mao Tse-tung,

approaching an ordinary man who has the features
Tse-tung, look: at the

you're not
of
Mao
Tse-tung
you're
approaching the creator of
a great
The
revolution and you're in a very special frame of mind.
same thing happened to me with Mao Tse-tung as happened

to me with Stalin. Seen face to face, Stalin seemed like a
harmless and polite little man. He was so affable, he actually
gave the impression of being slipshod. But you never forgot he
was Stalin, one of the victors, if not the victor, of the Second
World War, the great leader of Russia.
O.F.: Let's go back to Mao Tse-tung. Did you like him?
P.N.:
Of
But
He may
course!
if
had
Because
no
peasants, with
me
wouldn't be able.
suppose
peasant background.
liked
And
about
Mao?
We
him because
I'm the son of
city or middle-class mixtures.
to say
Mao, what do
were together
noon, half of which was taken up by translation

about things through an interpreter. Not even
who's been
French
miner
well,
in
Chou
Mao
was
cordial.
at
the time.
En-lai,
He even
explained to
him
to
asked
encourage them
to turn to the left,
me
me
a lot in the
that
it
was an
opening toward the Christian Democrats, so
at
opinions.
So
after-
talked
to speak
and who certainly speaks English, spoke
what was Operation Ncnni, about which there was

attempt
an
for
we
Belgium and should know how
without an interpreter.
newspapers
the most.
I've liked
for this choice,
a matter of instinct.
it's
he comes from
you want
be the world figure
account
to
as to
but he didn't express any
You can see some things don't enter into his frame
Then we talked about China's entry into the UN,
of reference.
about mutual recognition by our two countries, about the

Catholic missions in China with regard to which there had
been some
talk
of massacres.
He seemed
to
me
verv alive.
And
248
I
well with
feel
men who
They never
stone walls.
talk
they shy away from
Which
are alive.
You
especially for Khrushchev.
also goes
and
see, the Soviet leaders are like
bring anything
human
into
pleasantries, they're always so
their
pomp-
Khrushchev instead was never pompous, even in front of

me. He drank, he joked, he made fun of his
collaborators. Speaking of Molotov, he said to me, "You
know, that one's a mule!" Anyway I'd found out he was a
mule myself when we'd met to discuss the Trieste problem.
But what do these memories have to do with anything?
Weren't we supposed to be talking about Italy and the Italians?
O.F.: Yes, and here's a question that many people would like to ask
you. People are talking more and more about a council Republic composed of Catholics and communists. Do you think
such a marriage is imminent, or rather possible?
P.N.: No, I don't much think so. The council Republic is a suggestive formula, like the one of "spaghetti with Chilean sauce."
But I'd say even this formula is anything but imminent and
probable. It's not based on solid realities. And too many factors are holding it back: a Socialist party aware of its role and
its autonomy, the lay forces represented by such parties as the
ous.
a foreigner like
Republican
engaged
party,
presence in
the
of freedom.
in the defense
the Christian Democrats and the
seems
protest
political
attractive.
dream.
It's
Italy
.
It's
obvious that
Communist
to
party such a
two-party system, basically,
is
their
obvious that there are currents engaged in
even
an operation of
this
and Communist
parties there are those
kind
union of the "black
that a
of cultural circles
priests"
outside the Demo-christian
who delude
themselves
with the "red priests" would
guarantee for several years a relative social peace, the preserva-
same thing happen with me,

There were many who believed
open the doors of the government to the socialists
tion of the status quo. Didn't the
with the opening to the

that to
would help
little
no.
left?
to safeguard the status
quo. But,
repeat,
belief in the possibility of such a deplorable event.
It's
too pessimistic to talk about
it.
don't want
have
No,
to.
do it anyway. Even on the level of political fantasy.

Senator Nenni, just what would a council Republic be? What
O.F.: Let's
consequences would
it
have
for us?
Nenni
Pietro
P.N.: Clearly
it
249
would be the marriage of two integralist groups in

point: to remove from our midst all the
go back to the principles of democracy and free-
agreement on one
forces that
dom. Two
integralist
groups that are aware, yes, of certain
to me are fundamenWith the council Republic we'd witness the division of power between two
churches: to one church, the hegemony of the state; to the
other church, the hegemony of the opposition. At the same
problems but aren't aware of others that
tal:
individual freedom, democratic
life.
time we'd see the eventual suppression and disappearance of

every intermediary force capable of applying any restraint. In
substance, the Socialist party would disappear as well as the
bloc of lay forces.
Also to disappear would be vast sectors.
Christian in inspiration, that have

to the secular
and democratic
made
broad contribution
rebirth of Italy. I'm speaking in
abstract terms,
you understand, because each
would have
reckon with
to
integralist
the imagination of foreign observers, the
same
of "spaghetti with Chilean sauce." Abroad, in
lem of the communists

Christian Democrats
don't consider
it
in the
is
solution of this problem
formula
as the
the prob-
fact,
government with or without the
presented as the problem of
the problem.
is
group
Look, such a marriage tempts
us.
consider ita problem.
still
in the
hands of the
Italy.
And the
commu-
nists.
O.F.:
P.N.:
What do you mean?

mean that the clarification
I
whose
common
This
what
of their presence in a coalition
democracy depends on them.

the communists have done.
True, sometimes they've varied their methods and tactics. Just
think of the switch they made in Salerno in 1944, with Togliatti's meeting with the king. True, they've made statements.
is
it
They've taken
denominator
doesn't
risks.
seem
to
is
me
But the communist objective remains the
conquest of power under the more or
mony
torical
less totalitarian
hege-
of their party. I'hen on an international level their hisposition
directed from
remains within the Soviet system, which
Moscow even when
what happened
in
is
they express reserxations on
Czechoslovakia and Poland, even when
they knov\ the Soviets were ready to intervene in
they had intervened in Prague. In short, arc the
Warsaw
as
communists
250
approaching
democratic and
human
sociahsm or not? Are
new
they about to accept this revisionism of a sociahsm with a

face or not?
Nenni, do you think
O.F.: Senator
P.N.:
note that
even
it
it can happen?
happened in the last fifty years, and not
Quite a long period of time. We know
hasn't
in the last ten.
that in the countries they govern, every revisionist attempt to
have a socialism with

lence and terror.
We
human
know
face has
been crushed by
that Peking calls the Soviet
group of monopolist and
a ''paradise for a
capitalist
crats as well as a prison for millions of workers."
Moscow
"one of the
Hider."
compliment by
returns the
course
We
Gasperi
said to
is
might not,
at
me
He
the time was frightened by their moderation.
offer
fifty."
me
you
can't deal with

ten,
Would
Togliatti
politically because,
arrives
and immediately
they do the same tomorrow?
Who
knows? Only by examining things vigorously can we give

to the
elements of
a historical process that will
munists on the outside. So what

still
valid
their part.
is
today:
I've
communists and
But the key
keep the com-
been saying
issue in the Italy
The
rise
for years
is
must each play

of today, believe me,
socialists
not that of the council Republic.
with Chilean sauce.

is
of
possible,
communists have already been in the govwere there together, from 1944 to 1947. And
me, "Look,
when you
offers
absurd to take
also
Everything
to
communists
the Italian
ernment.
De
it's
something that might happen and
but anyway hasn't yet happened.
that
Tse-tung
comparable only
these basic conflicts the Italian
have never clearly expressed themselves. So

for granted
bureau-
know
Mao
calling
greatest traitors of history,
And on
We
vio-
Union
It's
not that of spaghetti
key issue, or rather the key problem,
the crisis of the center-left.
It's
the weakness of the
demo-
cratic state that this crisis involves.
O.F.
And
that's
center-left
and
P.N.:
is
what
wanted
one of your
to
Senator Nenni.
The
But must we speak of
crisis
get to,
creations.
failure?
Must we consider
shouldn't we rather examine
Failure?
this
experiment
failure,
or
the points from
its crisis and

which strength be regained? True, there have been errors on
our part. There have been contradictions, delays, culpable
Nenni
Pietro
Worse
slowness.
there's
been
251
degeneration in the ohgarchi-
cal sense of power, a corruption in the relations between pub-
power and
lic
been
private interests. There's
weakening of
ideal values. That's the reason for the discredit that's fallen
on
everything and everybody, for the lack of public confidence in

the political class. But
the center-left,
it's
center-left. All the
the
communists
more
emphasize the
right to
if it's
not right to
condemn
since this
is
totally the
what the
just
are thinking of abundantly.
errors of
work of the
right
and
Don't forget an
important thing: the center-left has not only had to face the
sores inherited
from fascism,
it's
also
had
to face
new phenom-
ena and problems that are troubling the entire world. Think of
what
it's
meant,
in the entire world, the eruption
tionally applied by the schools
maker of
workers,
man
its
it's
and the family, so
own tomorrow. Think
of the
as to
be the
new needs
of the
of the tragedy they've discovered with automation:

of the machine instead of the machine at
man. Think of the sexual revolution and the way
at the service
the service of
O.F.
on the pub-
scene of a younger generation that evades the control tradi-
lic
cut into family
agree.
difficult
ties.
The center-left has found itself in power at the most

moment, with the old rules collapsing, cultural values
changing, and humanity going through a
crisis
of growth. But
other countries too have found themselves going through the
same
and
upsets,
still
they've
done something about
it.
And
today they don't have to use the sober words that you've rightly
used: degeneration of power, corruption,
weakening of
ideal
values.
P.N.:
know.
In the
German
social
democrats and
votes.
And, with those
Federal Republic the
liberals has
five
force,
and the
some
five or six
proportions, like the agree-
the mutual renunciation of
treaty with Poland. In Italy the center-left has a
majority of a hundred votes and every day

front of
coalition of
or six votes, Brandt has been able
on problems of historical
ment with the Soviet Union on
to take
little
only a majority of
difficulty or other; for the
most
it
gets stalled
in
part difficulties of
an internal kind: groups large and small, each of which claims

a
slice
of power,
courage and
the squandering of energies,
initiatixc.
sometimes wonder
if
the lack of
the generation
2 52
middle
in the
namely
now knocking
mine and the one
the one between
the door
at
hasn't arrived too easily at the
summit of power. From the school cloisters

as the Frenchman Nobcourt said in his
interview with
Europeo. No,
man
game,
to be what's
don't pretend that behind every
behind many
in
my
the darkest tragedies of our century.
them
as
P.N.:
some
Still
there has
having lived through
Still
obstacle might not have been so bad for
little
right,
the power
generation: the burden of the
battle against fascism, the misfortune of
O.F.:
to
Senator Nenni? They've
all
been born ministers,
you exclaimed one day.
But they have problems that give them no

just!
Look
at the
respite.
Let's
be
exodus from the countryside, hundreds of
thousands of families that burst pell-mell into the

themselves abruptly in contact with another
cities to find
reality.
Look
at
the dizzying growth of the schools: in eight years a student
population that increases from
than
seven
teaching
Look
staffs.
less
than two million to more
without adequate
million,
at tax
O.F.:
Now
P.N.:
No. Nothing
will
you admit
ment
to
or
in Italy
These are
terrible prob-
than elsewhere.
being a pessimist. Senator Nenni?
irreparably
compromised. There's only one
before which we'd be defenseless: an economic,
possibility
monetary
is
facilities
reform, health, city planning, the
regional governments to be organized.
lems and they're worse
school
crisis,
instability.
combined with governburst and swamp

can be avoided provided we roll up
a crisis of production
Then,
yes, the
everything. But even this
dam would
our sleeves, provided we carry out reforms, provided we stop
dawdling with polemics on the new equilibriums

of
some
future historical process.
mean
in the sphere
the one to be carried
out in the next ten years. I'm neither a prophet nor the son of
I say that this argument about the new equilibon an equivocation and on a very debatable prosthe development of the communist party. By losing our-
prophets but
riums
pect:
rests
selves in certain worries
we run
the risk of pursuing an illusion
and destroying what's been accomplished. We risk interrupting

the contribution the Christian Democrats have made to a policy of social progress and driving them back into the arms of
the right.
Nenni
Pietro
O.F.
Senator Nenni, your refusal to be pessimistic would be acceptable
But
the Socialist party were what you had imagined.
if
not.
it's
you
to ask
can die
peace."
Today ...
And
must be able
when
To
today?
look on these things with great regret but also
without any feeling of
back.
When you
"Now
a bad, question.
bringing about the unification, you said,
in
eighty,
So I'm about
in the country.
and perhaps
a brutal,
succeeded
in
and one through which you
a divided party
It's
can no longer determine events
P.N.:
253
man
guilt.
the political battle, but
lost
accept defeat. All the
to
more
one
so at the age of
many chances for a comemean to consider

made my contribution, for
doesn't have
recognize defeat, however, doesn't
defeat as absolute and final.
whatever
worth.
it's
And
I'd
I've
make
again
it
if
saw that republi-
can institutions, the democratic freedom of the masses, were

in
danger.
tain
think
one wanted
made an important
I've
My
achievements.
contribution to cer-
was the Republic
commitment equal
with a
it
greatest victory
mine.
to
no
And
if
haven't been successful in consolidating socialist unification,

it's
because
thought that
it
had
foundation
in
the con-
sciousness and will of the militants. Because that consciousness
and
will haven't stood the test, the test of
of success
1968 elections,
the
in
our
relative lack
of the controversy over
disengagement, of the argument over new equilibriums.
me
do you want
this
one of
to say?
a typically Italian
It's
divisions, of schisms.
No one
What
phenomenon,
waits for events to
prove them right or wrong; everyone wants to be right immediately.
So?
wanted
a party
conscious of
its
autonomy, dedi-
cated to winning over the working masses again and the positions lost after the
schism of 1947.
wanted
a party
capable of
creating a socialist alternative within the sphere of the centerleft.
With
this
possibility
gone,
can only hope that the
center-left will regain awareness of itself
engaged
O.F.: Senator
in the politics
Nenni,
isn't
and become deeply
of things.
it
that the Italians arc only comfortable
with dogmatisms and churches?

P.N.:
No, even
if
they're comfortable with power, since they
still
haven't liquidated the heritage of past centuries of servitude to

foreigners
and subordination
to
domestic tyranny.
"I
have
54
family to support.
family
up through
children, eight children," they
six
a skeptical, corrosive intelligence that dissolves
An
everything.
To
have
tell
social
it
you. And that's one aspect of that heritage, fed by

insecurity at many social levels. By saying "I have a
to support," they give up the struggle. Or else they give
always
enemy
intelligence that's the
criticize everything
and everybody
is
of concreteness.
way of
criticizing
nobody it's just a way of staying outside the struggle. And

that's something we're very good at. But look, it's not correct
to say the Italians are only comfortable with dogmatisms and
churches. To oppression and compromise they react in lively
fashion. Or rather let's say they always end by reacting. And
compensates
that largely
tional,
and
social,
backward compared
O.F.
for the
negative heritage of a na-
upbringing
political
undoubtedly
that's
to other nations.
Speaking of an intelligence that dissolves things, Schlesinger

that interview in Europeo,
in
said,
modern
Italy
knew
P.N.: Schlesinger
esteemed
it
that the real tragedy of
was the death of the Action
because
lectual qualities
party.
the leaders of the Action party and rightly

it
men
attracted
who
men
rich in
moral and
intel-
contributed in remarkable mea-
sure to the struggle against fascism, to the advent of the Republic,
But
to the birth of the Constitution.
up with time
outside reality, fated not to stand
was
it
a party
precisely be-
cause of the kind of intelligence we mentioned: the kind that

dissolves everything
misfortune
most inspiring
many
in
figure:
power
It
was
in
after
it
had the
having
lost
its
knew Carlo Rosselli,

murdered him and his brother
Carlo Rosselli.
years before the fascists
France.
letter
and creates nothing. Besides
to arrive at the test of
1925, after
had written
upholding the necessity of giving our
my
comrades
European
battle a
look and not wasting ourselves on such anarchist activities as

assassination attempts.
door.
let
him
in
One morning
and he
said
a stranger
something
Rosselli, professor at the University of

letter to
the leaders of the party and
Genoa.
liked
knocked
like this:
it
'Tm
I've
very
at
my
Carlo
read your
much. I'm
economic problems that hinder so

many of you. I've come to ask you if we can work together."
We did work together. Together we founded Quarto Stato,
rich
man;
don't have the
Nenni
Pietro
the magazine to
255
which some of the most worthy men of the

repeat, there was
future Action party were to contribute. But,
And when
a dissolving spirit in their fine intelHgence.
tion party died

O.F.:
those worthy
the Ac-
men
dispersed into other parties and
all
of
us ended by being contaminated by the dissolving spirit of

their fine intelligence.
You
in the Socialist party first
P.N.: Yes,
all.
Is
but the difficulties of the Socialist party have been of a
different kind.
The
political space
being undermined from
left
conditions
hard to defend yourself.
and you
it's
risk
to the right
to
of
what you mean?
that
Socialist party
being sucked
and you
have clear ideas
risk
if
in
is
with
a borderline party,
and
right
in
its
such
small step to the
left
by the communists, a small step
being taken for a moderate.
you want
to
You have
defend socialism and not
fall
one or the other.

O.F.: Senator Nenni, when you speak of socialism, what do you
mean? Your socialism today is not that of fifty years ago.
P.N.: Yes and no. Because, you see, the socialism of fifty years ago
was directed toward projects that were in part Utopian, or still
Utopian. It experienced, and then some, the reality of daily
struggle, the struggle of the workers and peasants, but it had
no models for the "city of tomorrow." Today, instead, these
models exist in concrete form. They exist in the two types of
into the orbit of
socialism that have been taking shape: the
communist kind
and the Swedish. The communist kind has achieved the

tion of private property, but
society closed to every breath of individual

cratic
life,
among men,
kind has led
the democratic
level so far achieved, but

ist
ownership.
grad.
ing
feel
it
more
life
human
problem
that
isn't
by attempting
you don't
state
oppression
is
freedom, equality'
of the masses, to the highest
hasn't broken the system of capital-
at
ease in Stockholm than in Lenin-
think that in Stockholm there's a
life
freedom and demo-
through barrack societies where
The Swedish
fierce.
aboli-
has done so in the context of a
it
find
in
new way
Leningrad.
rcsoKcd by an clcnicntar\' choice

a synthesis of the
of conceiv-
Nexertheless the
Kvo experiments;
it's
resoKed
mean
a sys-
tem where the sociality of the means of exchange and production is combined with the greatest freedom for man. Because
256
what
basically
man's principal objective? To achieve the
is
freedom from
greatest freedom:
anny.
But
this discussion
all
from
exploitation,
would be more
all
tyr-
suitable for a
study club than for an interview about Italy in the 1970s.

O.F.:
It
don't think so.
should interest
It
many Italians of the 1970s.

who have realized that they're un-
should interest
all
those
able to accept scientific socialism, the dogmatic socialism that
imposes
itself
by the negation of freedom. But do you think
your socialism can be achieved?
even
P.N.: Yes,
I
if
don't
know what concrete form
say this because I'm not bothered
up
setting
a future society in advance.
everybody, sooner or
isn't this
sides,
and
it
It's
now
free.
socialism already being realized in Italy
in a great part of the world?
Look,
in
And
disease of
a disease that hits
but of which I'm
later,
will take.
anymore by the
one century
Beitself
social-
ism has become the driving force behind every struggle for
freedom and equality, the impulse behind every

independence of
men and
nations.
It's
battle for the
penetrated into the
seem to
and the
relations of classes, but also the relations between men and
their way of thinking, of being. Why? Because, by becoming
concrete, the very concept of socialism has taken on new characteristics. And it's shown us that in democratic societies the
state tends to become the state for everyone. In communist
most diverse
exist.
It's
societies,
even those where
it
doesn't
transformed not only the conditions of
countries instead, no.
The
life
dictatorship of the proletariat was
conceived by Marx as an exceptional form of power
to
be exer-
cised during the transition from capitalist to socialist society.
communist countries the dictatorship of the proletariat

has become the dictatorship of the Communist party over societ>' and the workers. And within the party it's become the dictatorship of the party machine over the party. In the party
machine it's become the dictatorship of a charismatic leader
But
in
like Stalin. In short,
tion, if
we've seen that even a proletarian revolu-
not sustained by the
spirit
of democracy and freedom,
can degenerate into bureaucracy, technocracy, police tyranny.
The mere
abolition of capitalist ownership hasn't resolved the
problem of socialization
and of self-management for the

It's merged into a state
means of production and exchange.

Pietro
Nenni
257
capitalism that's no different from private capitalism, or rather

is
and alienating
just as oppressive
fact
as private capitalism.
that principles are always enticing
is
We
formula.
never realize that
when
when
The
expressed by a
translated into reality
they have unforeseeable effects precisely because they emerge
from
O.F.:
a formula.
And
to think that this
formula, the dictatorship of the prole-
many
has convinced so
tariat,
But didn't you
Beginning with you.
Italians.
realize these things the
first
time you went to
Russia?
P.N.:
Of course.
In fact,
even then
was
and not
a socialist
com-
munist. But there was no need to go to Russia to realize these
We
things.
socialists
have always rejected the Soviet example.
became
Before the Soviet Union

States
on the
level of military
Bolshevik revolution. But

facts as difficulties
owing
it
United
the equal of the
power,
it's
we defended
true
the
was because we interpreted certain
to the
backward nature of Russian
so-
emerged from the process of industrialization in a predominantly peasant country. What's more,
engaged as we were in the struggle against Nazi fascism, we
had to seek the collaboration of the communists at home and
difficulties
ciety,
that
the support of the Soviet

You'll say to me:
And
How's
Union
that?
after those trials, the
in the international sphere.
What
Moscow
about the
trials?
extermination of a great part of the
Bolshevik group that had guided the October Revolution?
Look,
wrote four articles in
publishing
Moscow
merit.
in
trials
But
Paris.
Nuovo Avanti! which we were
In those four articles
denounced the
and denied that they had any moral or

didn't
draw
drastic
juridical
conclusions from them,
make them the reason for a resounding rupture. Why?

Because we were in Spain together, we socialists and communists
exposed to the same risks, which isn't important, politi-
didn't
cally tied to the success or lack of success of the
War, and
that's very
important.
We
knew our
be a very hard blow against Nazi fascism,
would accelerate
Hitler's race
were shooting were Soviet
toward war.
rifles,
Spanish Ci\il
victorv'
that
And
the few tanks
would
our defeat
the
rifles
we had
we
a\ail-
ablc were of Soviet make. 1 here was only Russia to help us
France and England sympathized onh with words. 1 he shock
258
came
shock.
nist
O.F.:
P.N.:
later.
It
The
came with Hungary. And
only thing
was
it
a really violent
had never believed was that
country could crush a people's
movement
commu-
with tanks, a
movement that had exploded out of a need for freedom.

And it was then that you returned your Stalin Peace Prize.
"Returned"
is
a verb
don't like because
atrical gesture that doesn't

it
this
way:
I'd
go with
my
presupposes
it
temperament.
crisis
me
me
East,
to
seemed
it
when
received that prize in 1952, and
broke out in Hungary, parallel with the

to
that the prize given
be used for peace. Therefore
Red Cross,
the
in the
for
a the-
Let's put
crisis
Middle
peace ought
donated the sum of money
to
Hungarian refugees and

for the victims of the Anglo-French war in Egypt. But what
good does it do to talk about it?
the International
O.F.:
P.N.:
It goes to show that in

men. And getting back to
European context?
for the
Italy there are still a

Italy,
how do you
see
few honorable
its
place in the
To speak of Italy in the European context means to speak of

Europe itself. And when Joseph Alsop says that Europe doesn't
exist, Europe doesn't count, he's unfortunately speaking a bitter truth. I too think that the future of the world today is no
longer decided in Europe. As furthermore
in
America. By
now
it's
not decided only
an Asian component that Euro-
there's
peans and Americans must take into account, and I'm not
speaking only of China.
of India.
I'm speaking of Japan,
Europe would have had an immense role in the world if it had

the great idea that
realized its political and economic unity
twenty-five years
But
from
the
Second
World
War.
emerged
united
nor is it about
have gone by and Europe has not been
to be.
The
particular interests of individual states have pre-
vailed over the
hand,
community of
how can we
fail
to
interests,
understand
it
in
and, on the other
an
Italy
where not
even the municipal particularisms between Catanzaro and

Reggio Calabria, Aquila and Pescara, can be overcome? Particularism in the face of
Then
error.
it
From
Europe, and
trials
European unity began in England.

became De Gaulle's historical
spread to France and
he
this
to
standpoint,
France
as
De Gaulle
well.
did great
harm
to
True, he avoided painful
was probably the only one who could have
liqui-
Pietro
Nenni
259
dated the terrible Algerian adventure. But taken
was
his action
backward one. Backward
dom, of democracy, of
foreign policy.
not unite was also partly his
P.N.:
And
that
man.
people
On
open.
that couldn't
frontiers
fail to
be
irritat-
found him very
the Val d'Aosta, for instance, he had rejected the
suggestions of the military

its
But on the problems of our
ing.
took up
A complex
because he was too conde-
don't say fascinating,

in talking to
of free-
Europe did
when we
the war,
the subject of the peace treaty with Italy together.
scending
together,
fault.
You knew him too, didn't you?

knew him immediately after
Yes,
O.F.:
all
in the area
men and
who demanded
politicians
annexation by France. He'd accepted the same suggestions
on Briga and Tenda, he told me, because a "moral sanction"

was necessary against Italy for having unjustifiably entered the
war against France. Look, there's one Gaullism to which I'm
faithful, and it's the one of June 18, 1940, when De Gaulle
rebelled against the unconditional surrender of France. But
there's a
Gaullism
survival of the
can't accept
produced De Gaulle's aversion

me: But he said no
tell
NATO,
and
it's
one of 1958: the

state. That too
the
monarchical conception of the
to
for the unity
NATO.
In
of Europe. You'll
order to say no to
to European unity. By themEuropean countries are no longer capable of withdrawing from the influence of one bloc or the
other. If today the world is more or less divided up between
the United States and the Soviet Union on the basis of the
he should have said yes
selves, the individual
quo,
status
it's
united Europe.
O.F.
precisely because
On
that
we weren't
able to create a
have no doubts.
Senator Nenni, to what degree has your
life
been marked by
doubt?
P.N.:
To
a great degree, always.
even
in
exaggerated
carry doubt inside
Once
form.
me, sometimes
had an argument with
Gramsci about doubt. And it seems to me that Renan says,

"Without the presence of doubt, wc lose the exact evaluation
of events and things; the mania for ccrtaint\ is the approach to
fanaticism." By the mania for certainty you end by not allowing the opinions of others.
listen to the
instead have always been ready to
opinions of others and to look for positive eie-
200
ments
them. Doubt
in
me
suits
because
and doesn't necessarily involve the
Even with
fight.
O.F.
And
all
requires freedom
it
of
loss
of the will to
faith,
the inevitable mistakes.
the inevitable sorrows, the inevitable resignation, the in-
you have had and have
evitable bitterness. All things that
abundance. Senator Nenni, have you ever wondered
if it
in
was
worth the trouble?
Not even now when my
P.N.: Never.
life
paid,
what
a
have no
had
more
just
Because
regrets.
to do,
and because
humanity.
is
my
look back and think of the ideals of

I
believe I've simply
worth the trouble
it's
my
my
them,
think:
my
These decades of
today people are so

time. Yes,
that of
children,
life is
much
such
much
my
was born, and
were
let's
in every area.
more. Every bewildered person ought

while
listen,
at
in vain;
in
my
no comnot speak
life;
Even
we've achieved
in that
of free-
dom. You seem to me bewildered by this Italy, so full of

ment and discontent. And I understand you. In fact, I'll
which we ought to
it.
But look here.
I've
mine,
and grandfather were born.
father
higher level of civic
such formidable progress
done
Looking
infinitely less harsh today. There's
of the world in which

at
eyes:
been
better off than they
parison with the world in which
We're
grandchildren.
struggle haven't
I've
to fight for
worth the trouble, believe me.
It's
seen a good three generations grow up before

that of
When
almost over.
youth, of the price
all
to
fer-
say
be an alarm bell to
we
too often,
don't listen to
When
you analyze sector by sector, bit by

bit, thing by thing, it looks as though everything's about to
collapse. Examining the whole, you realize the structure is on
its feet.
O.F.
Then why such
fears,
such violence, such rejection of what's
been done?
P.N.:
Because once
Or
others.
status
It's
problem
is
quo, he never arrives
lems." He'd be in trouble

the
solved, another immediately arises.
a characteristic of
if
man.
Man
at saying, "I
he
did.
never accepts the
have no more prob-
Everything would sink in
mud, become debased, and would come
to lack the
im-
makes life acceptable. Namely, the constant search

something better. My dear friend, life should be looked at
pulse that
for
with the pessimism of intelligence, with the
critical
sense of
Pietro
Nenni
261
doubt, but also with the optimism of the

will,
nothing
unchangeable.
Man
O.F.:
fatal,
is
I
told
you
the creator of his
Thank
nothing
at
own
you. Senator Nenni.
Rome, April 971
is
will.
the beginning:
destiny.
When
inevitable,
I
there's a
nothing
believe in
is
man.
II
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
The shah was
standing and waiting for
magnificent salon that serves

the
speech by which
little
view and
handshake was
stiff.
him
as
Still
an
more
me
in the
middle of the
He made no reply to
granting me the inter-
office.
thanked him
for
extended his right hand.
very coldly,
silence,
in
stiffly
me
he asked
to be seated.
everything took place wordlessly, without a smile. His
have said he was trying

idea
what
it
to
reproach
me
for
were
lips
sealed as a locked door, his eyes as icy as a winter wind.
His
And
as
You might
something, and
had no
Or was he simply inhibited by shyness, by anxiety

regal tone? Once I was seated, he too sat down: legs
was.
not to lose his
together and arms crossed, torso rigid (because of the bulletproof

vest,
suppose, that he always wears).
Thus
that
rigid
he stared
had happened
me and
at
me, remote, while
at the gate,
where
his
made me late for the appointment. finally heard

when he replied that he was very sorry but that certain
almost
his voice
mistakes happened out of an excess of zeal.

voice.
Almost
Under
his white hair,
a voiceless voice.
stood out. As for his body,
well,
It
was
a sad,
His face was also sad and
tired
tired.
woolly as a fur cap, only his enormous nose

it
breasted gray suit, so thin, that
Very
related the incident
bodyguard had stopped
looked so fragile under the doubleI
promptly asked him
he replied; he'd never

262
felt
better.
if
he
The news
felt
well.
that his
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
263
health was in danger was devoid of foundation, and he had wanted
weight because he was getting a
to lose
We
had gotten off on the wrong
up the atmosphere. Now

asked if I might light the
hour.
that
"You could have
myself, but
and
think of
it,
cigarette that I'd
so before.
said
too
little
foot,
fat.
took a lot to
it
been craving
I've
in,
But almost everything
given up cigarettes
served in gold cups with gold teaspoons.
in the place
was gold: the ashtray that you
the box inlaid with emeralds, the knickknacks
didn't dare dirty,
covered with rubies and sapphires, the corners of the table.
phires,
and
irritating glare
sat for
Then, suspecting
him
see
days
again.
an
for half
smell of tobacco, the smell of smoke." At this
like the
point tea was brought
that absurd
warm
succeeded only when
about two hours, trying

that
He
And
in
of gold, emeralds, rubies, and sapto
fathom His Majesty.

I asked if I might
had fathomed nothing,
agreed, and our second meeting took place four
later.
To
This time His Majesty was more cordial.

pose, he
had put on
flowed easily,
might be on
if
gaudy
somewhat
Italian necktie,
ruffled
on
The
his police blacklist.
please
me,
sup-
and the conversation
his side by the fear that

fear struck
him when
had
one of my questions by explaining that my book on Vietnam, Nothing, and So Be It, had been banned from the bookstores
of Teheran during Nixon's visit. At this information he had jumped
up as though pricked by a knife through his bulletproof vest. His
look had become restless, hostile
for God's sake, was I therefore a
dangerous character? Some moments went by before he decided to
overcome the dilemma in the only way possible, namely, by relinquishing his excessive composure. Thus his smile opened up and,
amidst smiles, we talked about the authoritarian regime in which
qualified
he believes, of his relations with the United States and the USSR,
we talked about everything. Only after had

we had not spoken of the martial crisis that he
of his oil policy. Yes,

left
did
realize that
said to be going through with Farah Diba. He had only denied

me, with anger and indignation, that he had secretly remarried.
was
to
also realized that
still
knew
very
little
about him, perhaps
than before; despite three hours of questions and answers, the
remained
a mystery.
So
it
is
not easy for
me
less
man
to define his character.
264
like Bhutto's, a character in
It is,
merge
flicts
which the most paradoxical con-
reward you for your pains with an enigma.
to
He
believes in prophetic dreams, for example, in visions, in a childish
mysticism, and then goes on to discuss

is).
He
an expert (which he
oil like
governs like an absolute monarch, for example, and then
refers to his
who believes in them and

White Revolution that would seem to be
combat illiteracy and the feudal system. He
people in the tone of one
loves them, by leading a
making an
considers
effort to
women
as
simply graceful ornaments, incapable of think-
man, and then
strives to give them complete equality of

and duties. Indeed, in a society where women still wear the
he even orders girls to perform military service.
ing like a
rights
veil,
So who
is
this
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
who
for over thirty years
has been seated solidly on the most scorching throne in the world?
Does he belong
Is
he
to the era of flying carpets or to that of
a relic of the
oil wells?
My
Prophet
suspicion
is
Mohammed
that he
is
computers?
or an adjunct of the
Abadan
a highly dangerous megalo-
maniac, because he combines the worst of the old and the worst of
the new, not only to the detriment of his
as well,
is
Europe
own
people but of others
in particular. Also, thanks to his foolish visions,
he
too firmly convinced of being the reincarnation of Darius and
Xerxes, sent to this earth by
God
to rebuild their lost empire.
In a brilliant short story of political fantasy, the writer Paul Erd-
man
him the dream of provoking

War. History will tell if this judgment is excessive. But meanwhile the hypotheses formulated by
Erdman seem to me entirely possible. Does not Mohammed Riza
Pahlavi have at his disposal the most long-lasting oil wells existing
in the world and an army that for the moment lacks only the
atomic bomb? What is to keep him, with his oil and his army,
from occupying, for example, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, establishing himself on all the shores of the Persian Gulf, supplanting
the United States and the Soviet Union, and neutralizing both?
Has he not already begun his invasion of the West by trying to buy,
among other things. Pan American and Fiat?
We Europeans were naive, indeed superficial, in our underestimation of him, seeing him as a sad and harmless monarch who
spent his time agonizing over the lack of an heir. In our superficiality and naivete, we created a figure that did not exist, and reicalls
him
insane and attributes to
and winning the Third
Wodd
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
265
egated him, with his courtships, his engagements, his marriages,
and promenades
divorces, adulteries,
in
Rome and
Saint-Moritz, to
the pages of the scandal sheets. Nearsighted, incapable of seeing
beyond
glasses
we never took
this fapade,
and see anything
else.
on our eye-
the trouble to put
For instance,
and concentration camps overflowing with
his country's prisons
political prisoners, the
where they were tortured by medieval means, the courtyards of the barracks where they were shot dozens at a time, under
jail
cells
a hellish, ruthless dictatorship
We
racy was a mortal sin.
where even
to utter the
word democ-
didn't even bother to count his oil wells,
which were spreading like wildfire and increasingly fortifying his

power at home and abroad. Today, in effect, we are paying the
price for our myopia.
I
will
never forget Riza Pahlavi curtly raising his forefinger, while
on me that the price of oil

would go up, up, up, tenfold. And from the nausea I felt before
that gaze and that finger, there remains to me today one small satishis eyes glared with hatred, to impress
faction: to
have made him uncomfortable
he understood that he had made
at
the
mistake
moment
in
which
me.
receiving
in
("You're not on the blacklist?" "I'm on everybody's blacklist.")

Then, the pleasure of discovering that even this Majesty could
When the interview was published,

get me to disavow his remark that the
behave without majesty.
Riza
Pahlavi went
price
out to
all
would go up, up, up, tenfold. Indignantly I refused. He

I had invented it.
And then a little later he
went ahead and raised the price.
of
oil
reacted by stating that
ORIANA FALLACI: First of all, Majesty, I'd like to talk about yourself
and your position as king. There are so few kings left, and
can't get out of my head something you said in another interview: "If I could do it over again, I'd be a violinist, or a
surgeon, or an archaeologist, or a polo player.
Anything
I
but a king."
MOHAMMED
PAHLAVI:
RIZA
words, but
if
did,
a big headache.
with being king.

I'd
give
it
up
So
It
don't
remember having
was referring
it
said
those
to the fact that a king's job
often happens that a king gets fed
me too. But that doesn't mean

much belief in what am and what
hapiXMis to
have too
is
up
206
You
when you
I'm doing for
that.
few kings
you're implying a question to which
left,
see
say there are so
can only
When
one answer.
you don't have monarchy, you have

anarchy or oligarchy or dictatorship. And anyway monarchy is
the only possible way of governing Iran. If I've been able to do
something, or rather a lot, for Iran, it's due to the small detail
that I happen to be king. To get things done you need power,
and to keep power you shouldn't have to ask permission or advice from anybody. You shouldn't have to discuss your decigive
anyone and
sions with
takes too.
to carry
my
But
You
and mine
last
how many
M.R.P.: Twice,
mis-
mission
out to the end
it
can't foresee the future, of
Or should
times have they tried to
matter?
it
killed. Really.
And
then
What
if
me? Oh, why
kill
bomb and
of dying
it
have nothing
to
But
What
if
don't
do with
it.
Oh, why
me and
they've planted
Now
And courage and
feel.
when
time
they've planned to assassinate
goes off in flight? Not any more.

I
said to myself.
take that plane?
something
is
you?
kill
only knows.
There was
it.
did. Fifteen years ago, for instance.
go to that place?
God
don't live with the obsession of being
never think about
last
say that your regimes
will?
officially.
what does
have
but I'm convinced the monarchy in Iran will
O.F.: Majesty,
they
may have made
believe
still
intend to carry
throne.
longer than your regimes.
won't
Naturally,
out to the end, and
without giving up
course,
am human.
too
the fear
defiance
Such equanimity comes from
kind of fatalism, from blind faith in the fact that nothing can
happen
end. Yes,
to finish.
want
O.F.:
me
to
I'll
until the
Then why
I've carried
stay alive until
And
to kill
day
such time
been
that day has
out
my
as
finish
mission to the
what
have
who
by God, not by those
set
me.
are
you so
Majesty?
sad.
may
be wrong, but you
always have such a sad and worried look.

M.R.P.:
Maybe
sadness
my
is
a mystical one,
mystical side.
man
I'm a sad
think.
wouldn't know
no reason why
wanted as a man and
there's
Maybe
you're right.
how
should be sad.
as a king.
at heart.
sadness that
else to explain
I
now have
really
But
my
comes from
it,
since
everything
have everything,
my
Mohammed
life
And
yet
on your
yet a cheerful smile
part
ficult,
twelve years of
first
Mossadegh
personal sufferings
Besides
man, I'm
to be
My
I'm
a king.
And
to
much
And
1953
referring to
my
sufferings as a king.
the king. Before being a
swayed by
is
a great nuisance!
anyone
to
a mission
mean,
it
must be
for
what he
king,
says
when he
and does,
doesn't
is
inevi-
alone. But I'm not entirely alone because I'm
accompanied by
force.
put up with
in
being a king instead of a man.
account
tably very
my
to
Rome
the rest doesn't count.
must be
it
man from
don't deny I'm lonely. Deeply so.
have
had
reign.
king whose destiny
accomplished.
goodness,
my
referring to
can't separate the
pretty lonely
I
what
remember? And I'm not even
has to
it
has always been so dif-
life
so exhausting. Just think of
during the
me. But
to
Which doesn't happen often.

who laugh at everything silly,
No, I'm not one of those people

but you must understand that my
M.R.P.:
rarer than a shooting
is
Only when something funny happens
be something really very funny.
O.F.:
world
in the
Don't you ever laugh, Majesty?
star.
M.R.P.:
and
I,
267
Nobody
goes forward like a beautiful dream.
should be happier than

O.F.:
Riza Pahlavi
then
My
force that others can't see.
mystical
get messages. Religious messages. I'm very,
God, and I've always said that if

would be necessary to invent him. Oh, I
feel so sorry for those poor souls who don't have God. You
can't live without God. I've lived with God ever since the age
of five. That is, since God gave me those visions.
very religious.
God
believe in
didn't exist,
it
O.F.: Visions, Majesty?
M.R.P.: Yes, visions. Apparitions.

O.F.:
Of what? Of whom?
Of prophets. Oh,
I'm surprised you don't
M.R.P.:
Everyone knows
biography. As
and one when
had
I've
a child
I
was
he who, according
had two
The
six.
to
visions.
even wrote
time,
it
in
One when
visions.
first
know about
my
it.
auto-
was
five
saw our Prophet
Ali,
our religion, disappeared
to return
on
when he would save the world. had an accident

fell against a rock. And he saved me
he placed himself between me and the rock. know because saw him. And not in
the day
208
dream in reality. Material reality, if you see what I mean. I

was the only one who saw him. The person who was with me
a
him
didn't see
me
except
But no one
at all.
because
was supposed
else
Oh, I'm
afraid
him
to see
you don't understand
me.
O.F.:
Indeed
don't. Majesty.
had got off
don't understand you at
such a good
to
and instead now
start,
business of visions, of apparitions
We
all.
.
This
not clear to me,
It's
that's all.
M.R.P.
Because you don't believe.
don't believe me.
He
Anyway many
believe
accomplish
take
all
O.F.:
reign
God was
My
beside me.
Mind
that there
you,
mean,
could. But
was someone
told you, only as a child.
At intervals of one or two

years.
it.
didn't ever
visions were miracles that saved the
it's
else
not
don't want
behind me.
well, did
it's
For instance,
Never
as
to,
it
me
to
I've
done
because
was God.
later as
an adult
Or even
years.
It
saved
fair for
you have these
only as a child, or have you also had them

I
if
has saved the country and
you see what I mean?

No, Majesty. Because
M.R.P.:
father didn't
the credit for myself for the great things that
for Iran.
know
my
he always laughed about
it,
people, albeit respectfully, ask
a mission.
My
because
don't believe in God, you
was a fantasy. My answer is no. No, because I

God, in the fact of having been chosen by God to
it
believe in
country.
You
people don't. Even
never believed
it.
suspect
Many
Do
visions
an adult?
only dreams.
every seven or eight
once had two dreams
in the
span of
fif-
Dreams
in
teen years.
O.F.:
What
M.R.P.
dreams. Majesty?
Religious dreams.
my
Based on
mysticism.
which I saw what would happen in two or three months, and

that happened just that way in two or three months. But what
these dreams were about, I can't tell you. They didn't have to
do with me personally; they had to do with domestic problems
of the country and so should be considered as state secrets. But
perhaps you'd understand better if instead of the word dreams I
used the word presentiments.
Some
believe in reincarnation,
have continuous presentiments,
believe in presentiments too.

I
believe in presentiments.
as strong as
my
instinct.
Even
Mohammed
when
the day
they shot at
269
Riza Pahlavi
me
from
a distance of six feet,
it
was
my instinct that saved me. Because, instinctively, while the asdid what in boxing is
sassin was emptying his revolver at me,
called shadow dancing. And a fraction of a second before he
I
my heart, moved aside in such a way that the bullet

also believe in miracles.
went into my shoulder. A miracle.
When you think I've been wounded by a good five bullets,
aimed
at
one
one
in the face,
so
last
one stuck
You have to
jammed
many air disasters, and yet
trigger
scathed
thanks
to a
one
in the shoulder,
the body, and that the
in the
head, two in
in the barrel
because the
believe in miracles. I've had
always
come out un-
God and
the prophets.
I've
miracle willed by
see you're incredulous.
More than
O.F.:
because
incredulous, I'm confused. I'm confused, Majesty,
Well, because
visions
you.
Not
to
find myself talking to a person
knew nothing about these miracles, these

... came here to talk about oil, about Iran, about
Even about your marriages, your divorces.
hadn't foreseen.
change
must have been
the subject, but those divorces
quite dramatic. Weren't they. Majesty?

M.R.P.:
It's
my life has gone forward under the

when my personal feelings have had to
hard to say because
sign of destiny,
suffer, I've
and
always protected myself with the thought that a par-
was willed by
ticular pain
when you have
sonal feelings don't count.

hasn't the right.
had such
told
king or one
sponsibilities
first
of
all
duty,
of duty. For instance,
in a king, per-
and
was
my
when my
know
her."
One
If
one
isn't.
all
is
a king,
one must bear
it
father
didn't
agreed
is
all
He
always
I've
duty to agree at once.
to object or say, "I don't
it
and
And
marry Princess Fawzia of Egypt,"
to
me
to
once because
can't rebel against destiny
king never cries over himself.
king means
a strong sense
even occur
at
me, "You're
You
fate.
mission to accomplish.
either
the re-
the burdens of being a king, without giv-
ing in to the regrets or claims or sorrows of ordinary mortals.

O.F.
Fawzia, Majesty, and take that
Let's skip the case of Princess
You chose
of Princess Soraya.
didn't
M.R.P.:
it
Well
her yourself as your wife. So
hurt you to repudiate her?

.
yes.
that, for a certain
For
a while, yes.
period of time,
it
can actually say
was one of the
greatest sor-
270
rows of
my
But reason prevailed very soon, and
life.
What must
myself the following question:

try?
And
the answer was find another spouse
my
share
whom
destiny and from
my
throne. In other words,

vate matters but
on
throne. But
an heir
to ask for
to the
on
pri-
royal duties. I've always trained myself not
not talk of such things
let's
asked
my counwith whom to
for
feelings are never focused
my
be concerned with myself but with
to
do
country and
of my
divorces,
my
and
so forth. I'm far above, too far above, these matters.
But
O.F.: Naturally, Majesty.
since
think
ought
it
one thing
there's
can't help asking,
be cleared up. Majesty,
to
is
you've taken another wife? Ever since the day the

press published the
it
true
German
news
and it was spread around by the French
it had been
published by the Palestinian
.
M.R.P.: Slander, not news,
agency
press
after
newspaper A/ Mohar
disgusting slander.
I'll
for
only
woman who's supposed to

of my niece, the daughter
besides
is
obvious reasons.
you
tell
my
my
be
of
stupid,
vile,
that the photograph of the
fourth wife
is
twin
My
sister.
photograph
niece,
who
married and has a child. Yes, some of the press
would do anything to discredit me it's run by unscrupulous,

immoral people. But how can they say that I, I who wanted
the law by which it's forbidden to take more than one wife,
have got married again and secretly? It's unthinkable, it's intolerable,
it's
shameful.
O.F.: Majesty, but you're a
take
Muslim. Your
religion allows
another wife without repudiating the Empress
you
to
Farah
Diba.
M.R.P.
as the
sick,
or doesn't want to
ing her husband unhappiness
In
could, so long
be honest, one must
For instance, when a wife
is
after all!
You'd have to be
tolerate such a
husband would
your society, when a circumstance of that kind
arises,
doesn't a
our
society, a
man
man
take a mistress, or
on which
more than one? Well,
can take another wife. So long
wife consents and the court approves.

ditions
to
her wifely duties, thereby caus-
fulfill
hypocritical or naive to think a

thing.
religion,
queen gave her consent. And
admit there are cases when
in
my
Yes, of course. According to
based
my
as the first
Without those two con-
law, however, the
new marriage
Mohammed
So
can't take place.
I,
daughter?! Listen,
so vulgar.
And
O.F.: All right. Let's not talk
about
everything. Majesty, and

M.R.P.:
deny nothing.
My
whom?!
to
niece?!
My
sis-
don't even want to discuss anything
refuse to talk about
271
myself, should have broken the law by
getting married in secret?!

ter's
Riza Pahlavi
another minute.
it
any more.
it
you deny
Let's say
don't even take the trouble to deny
it.
don't even want to be quoted in a denial.

O.F.:
How come?
you don't deny
If
people will go on saying the
it,
marriage has taken place.
my
M.R.P.: I've already had

O.F.:
And nobody
believed
embassies issue a denial!
So the denial must come from you.
it.
Majesty.
M.R.P.: But the act of denying
the matter
you
it
debases me, offends me, because
of no importance to me. Does
is
that a sovereign of
my
should lower himself
lems,
niece? Disgusting! Disgusting!

king,
deny
to
Does
How
Majesty.
strange.
been talked about

beginning
your
M.R.P.
you that
right to
in relation to
to suspect that
women?
women,
women
you.
it's
have counted
And now
for
made
really afraid you've
have
left
their
in
a correct observation.
my
you know
them; they've
profited
Revolution.
rights
and
where they
life,
the things
let's
put
it
this
way.
more than anyone
different.
women. Women,
marriages, certainly not
Look,
I've
my
in
mark on me, have been quite
Certainly not
else
don't underrate
from
my White
fought strenuously so that they'd have equal
responsibilities.
I've
even put them
get military training for six
in
the army,
months and
are then
sent to the villages to fight the battle against illiteracy.
not forget I'm the son of the
veils in Iran.
But
man who
wouldn't be sincere
fluenced by a single one of them.
nobody.
life
I'm
nothing
life.
Here I'm
let's
one monarch who's always
If there's
Because the things that have counted

that
prob-
an emperor of Persia should waste time talking
that
about such things? Talking about wives,

O.F.:
right to
my
with
marriage with his
his
seem
it
seem
it
stature, a sovereign
only
Still less a
if
woman.
they're beautiful
if
stated I'd
Nobody can
Women
And
took away women's
been
in-
influence me,
are important in a
man's
and charming and keep their femi-
272
ninity and
This business of feminism, for instance. What
do these feminists want? What do you want? You say equaHty.
Oh! I don't want to seem rude, but
You're equal in the
.
eyes of the law but not, excuse
my
saying so, in ability.
No, Majesty?
M.R.P.: No. You've never produced a Michelangelo or a Bach.
You've never even produced a great chef. And if you talk to
O.F.:
me about opportunity, all 1 can say is, are you joking? Have
you ever lacked the opportunity to give history a great chef?
You've produced nothing great, nothing! Tell me, how many
women capable of governing have you met in the course of
your interviews?
O.F.:
At
M.R.P.:
Golda Meir and
least two. Majesty.
Who
knows?
All
much
govern, are
more
can say
is
Indira
that
harsher than men.
Gandhi.
women, when
Much
cruder.
they
Much
bloodthirsty. I'm citing facts, not opinions. You're heart-
when you have
less
power. Think of Catherine de Mdicis,
Catherine of Russia, Elizabeth
of England. Not to mention
your Lucrezia Borgia, with her poisons and intrigues. You're

schemers, you're
evil. All
of you.
it's you who appointed the

Empress Farah Diba regent should the crown prince accede to
Majesty, because
O.F.: I'm surprised,
the throne while
Hm
M.R.P.:
a minor.
still
well
Yes,
before the required age.
my
if
son should become king
Queen Farah Diba would become
But there'd also be a council with which she'd have to

consult. I, on the other hand, have no obligation to consult
with anyone, and
don't consult with anyone. See the difregent.
ference?
O.F.:
see
And
it.
if
But the
you took
remains that your wife would be regent.
fact
this decision.
Majesty,
it
means you think
she's capable of governing.
M.R.P.:
Hm. ...
the decision.
are
In
any case,
And
that's
what
thought
when
we're not here just to talk about
took
this,
we?
O.F.: Certainly not.
Besides
things that interest

to talk
me
about you, here
haven't even begun to ask you the
most. Majesty. For example,

in
when
Teheran, people lock themselves
try
in
Mohammed
They
a fearful silence.
Why
Majesty.
Out of an
M.R.P.:
Riwa Pahlavi
don't even dare pronounce your
name,
that?
is
excess of respect,
they don't behave like that at
America,
273
drove through the
the airport to the palace
With me,
suppose.
When
all.
city in
in fact,
returned from
an open
car,
was wildly applauded, by
and from
at least a
They cheered,
they were by no means locked
people overcome with enthusiasm.
million
they shouted patriotic slogans,
Nothing has changed since the day I

my car on their shoulders
and carried it for three miles. Yes, it was three miles from the
house where I lived to the building where I was to take my
oath to the Constitution. And I was riding in that car. After a
few yards the people lifted the car like a sedan chair and
you
in silence as
became king and
rried
on
it
say.
the people lifted
their shoulders for a
O.F.:
God
forbid. Majesty.
good three miles.
What was
mean? That they're all against me?

meant only what I said. Here in Te-
your question supposed
to
heran people are so afraid of you they don't even dare pro-
nounce your name.
And why should
M.R.P.:
what you're
see
they talk about
me
to a foreigner?
many
O.F.: I'm referring to the fact, Majesty, that
you
don't
people consider
a dictator.
what they write
M.R.P.: That's
work
my
for
people.
O.F.: Yes, yes, but
M.R.P.:
referring to.
No,
in
Le Monde. And what do

Monde.
care?
don't work for Le
would you deny you're
wouldn't deny
it,
a very authoritarian king?
because in a certain sense
am. But
through reforms, one can't help but be authori-
look, to carry
tarian.
Especially
when
the reforms take place in a country
where only twenty-five percent of the inhabitants

know how to read and write. You mustn't forget that illiteracy
like
is
I
Iran,
drastic here
it'll
take at least ten years to eliminate
don't say to eliminate
for those
when
who
it
for
everyone
today are under the age of
three-quarters of a nation doesn't
it.
And
say to eliminate
fifty.
it
Believe me,
know how
to read or
you can provide for reforms only by the strictest authoritarianism

otherwise you get nowhere. If hadn't been harsh,
I wouldn't even
have been able to carry out agrarian reform
write,
274
and
my whole
Once
reform program would have been stalemated.
had happened, the extreme
that
would have
left
dated the extreme right within a few hours, and
White Revolution
the
do what
would have been
that
For instance, order
did.
anyone opposing the distribution of

no democracy
there's
O.F.:
finished.
troops to
So
land.
liqui-
not only
I
open
had
fire
to
on
to say that in Iran
there, Majesty?
Is
M.R.P.:
my
it's
assure you, there
is.
many ways
assure you that in
more democratic than your countries
Iran
is
Europe. Aside from
in
own their land, that the workers parmanagement of the factories, that the large industrial complexes are owned by the state instead of private individuals, you should know that elections here begin in the
the fact that the peasants
ticipate in the
villages
els.
and take place
at local,
municipal, and provincial lev-
In Parliament, of course, there are only two parties. But
they're the ones that accept the twelve points of
Revolution,
ideology of
and how many
my White
two that are able

negligible,
parties
ought
to
my White
represent the
Revolution? Besides those are the only
to get
enough
votes
the minorities are so
so ridiculous in size that they wouldn't even be
able to elect a deputy.
And
tain minorities to elect
be that as
may,
it
any deputies. Just
as
don't want cer-
won't allow the
Communist party. The communists are outlawed in Iran.

They only want to destroy, destroy, destroy, and they swear
allegiance to others instead of to their country and their king.
They're
O.F.:
traitors,
and
I'd
be crazy to
let
them
Maybe I explained myself badly, Majesty.

as we understand it in the West, namely,
mits anyone to think as he likes and
is
exist.
meant democracy
regime that per-
based on a parliament
where even minorities are represented.

I don't want that kind of democracy! Don't you understand? I wouldn't know what to do with such a democracy! It's
all yours, you can have it! Your wonderful democracy! You'll
.
M.R.P.: But
see, in a
O.F.: Well,
few years, where your wonderful democracy leads.
maybe
it's
a little chaotic.
you respect man and
But
it's
the only thing possi-
freedom of thought.
ble
M.R.P.: Freedom of thought, freedom of thought! Democracy, deif
his
Mohammed
With
mocracy!
Riza Pahlavi
streets.
going on
children
five-year-old
parading through the
275
strike
and
That's democracy? That's free-
dom?
O.F.: Yes, Majesty.
me. And
M.R.P.: Well, not to
you done
in the last
go on not studying
me
let
few years
add:
in
how much
your universities,
in
studying have
your universities?
how
will
And if you
you be able
keep up with the needs of technology? Won't you become
to
Americans thanks
servants of the
to
your lack of preparation,
won't you become third- or even fourth-rate countries? De-
O.F.:
mocracy freedom democracy! But what do these words mean?

Excuse me if I take the liberty of saying it. Majesty. But in my
opinion they mean, for example, not removing certain books
to Teheran. I know that
book on Vietnam was removed from the bookstores when
from bookstores when Nixon comes
my
Nixon came here and put back only
after he'd left.
What?
M.R.P.:
O.F.: Yes, yes.
M.R.P.: But you're not
Here
O.F.:
on the
Teheran?
in
blacklist, are
don't know.
It
you?
could be. I'm on every-
body's blacklist.
M.R.P.
Hm.
And
here I'm receiving you in the palace, and
you're here sitting next to me.

O.F.:
Which
is
Hm. ...
dom here.
M.R.P.:
O.F.:
It
very kind of you. Majesty.

certainly
It
.
shows we have democracy and
certainly does. But I'd like to ask
I'd like to
and
ask you:
lived here
free-
if
you something. Majesty.
were an Iranian instead of an
and thought
as
do and wrote
as
do,
Italian,
mean
would you throw me in jail?

M.R.P. Probably. If what you thought and wrote went counter
our laws, you'd be put on trial.
I
were
O.F.: Really?
M.R.P.:
And sentenced
think
you'd find
you
oil
if
to criticize you,
so.
it
to
too?
Naturally. But, between ourselves,
don't think
me in Iran. What would

my foreign policy? For my
easy to criticize or attack
criticize or attack
me
for?
For
policy? For having distributed land to the peasants? For
allowing workers to share in profits up to twent) percent and to
276
be able
to
buy stock up
For fighting
to forty-nine percent?
illit-
eracy and disease? For having brought progress to a country
O.F.:
where there was little or none?

No, no. Not for that, Majesty.
I'd attack
know:
out against students and
for the repression carried
been
lectuals in Iran, for example. I've
you
let's see.
intel-
told the prisons are so
new arrests have to be put in army camps. Is that

true? But how many political prisoners are there in Iran today?
M.R.P.: I don't know exactly. It depends on what you mean by the
expression political prisoners. If you're speaking of the communists, for instance, I don't consider them political prisoners
that
full
because
it's
forbidden by law to be a communist. Therefore a
me
communist
to
criminal.
then you
If
is
not a political prisoner but a
death of old people,
more obvious
oners.
that
To them,
kill
pity for those criminals
me, but
you
I've
son
if
I've
who
only to plot against public
the
the
political pris-
always pardoned
never had the slightest

or for traitors to the
call guerrillas
country. They're the sort of people
my
them
don't even consider
show no mercy. Oh,
those who've tried to
common
mean those whose actions result in

women, innocent children, it's all
are capable of killing
safety.
They're people
to
be eliminated.
you have them shot, don't you?

Those who have killed people, of course. They're
because they're
not because they're communists
O.F.: In fact,
M.R.P.
Communists
may
are simply sentenced to prison,
Oh,
and so
vary from a few to several years.
for
shot.
But
terrorists.
terms that
can imagine what
forth. But, you see,

you think about the death penalty,
certain opinions depend on the type of education one has had,
on culture, on climate, and you shouldn't take it for granted
that what goes for one country goes for them all. Take an
apple seed and plant it in Teheran, then take another seed
from the same apple and plant it in Rome the tree that grows
in Teheran will never be the same as the tree that grows in
Rome. Here it's right and necessary to shoot certain people.
Pietism
is
absurd here.
While listening to you, I was wondering something, Majesty.

I was wondering what you think of the death of Allende.
M.R.P.: Here's what I think. I think his death teaches us a lesson;
O.F.:
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
277
you must be one thing or the other, be on one side or the

if you want to accomplish something and win. Middleof-the-road compromises aren't possible. In other words, either
other,
you're a revolutionary or else you insist
on law and order
Much
can't be a law-and-order revolutionary.
And
one.
Allende wanted
if
why
Marxist ideas,
Castro
while
came
to rule
at least ten
am
force
And
I.
is
still
a certain
But then
in power.
plan on staying there by showing that with
you can do
socialism
When
thousand people,
of you said, "Bravo, bravo, bravo!" Well, in
all
sense he deserved the bravos since he's

so
accordance with his
didn't he organize himself better?
power, he killed
to
in
you
less a tolerant
of things, and
a lot
I'll
even prove that your
finished. Old, obsolete, finished. People
were
talk-
hundred years ago; they were writing

about it a hundred years ago. Today it no longer goes with
modern technology. I achieve more than the Swedes, and in
fact can't you see that even in Sweden the socialists are losing
ing about socialism a
ground? Ah! Swedish socialism!
and water.
ized forests
O.F.: Again, Majesty,
...
It
hasn't even national-
have.
me
don't understand. Are you telling
a certain sense you're a socialist,
that in
and that your socialism
is
more modern and advanced than the Scandinavian kind?

M.R.P.: Of course. Because that socialism means a system of social
security for those
salary- at
cialism of
my White
centive to work.
lieve
really
who
me,
It's
have nothing
by
will
leftists,
like
who do
those
work.
Revolution, on the other hand,
new, original socialism, and
Iran we're
in
you Europeans
infiltrated
don't work and nevertheless receive a
month
the end of the
to
much more advanced

learn from you.
never write
The
be-
than you and
But these are things
the international press
by the so-called
so-
an in-
is
left.
Ah,
is
this left!
so
It's
Even the priests! By now even

whose purpose is only to destroy,
destroy, destroy. And even in Latin American countries, even
in Spain! It seems incredible. They abuse their own church.
Their own church! They talk about injustice, about equality'.
even corrupted the clergy.
they're turning into elements
O.F.:
Ah,
Let's get
this left! You'll see, you'll see
back to you. Majesty-.
maybe even
ruthless,
where
it'll
bring you.
So intransigent, so harsh,
behind that sad
face. In the
end so simi-
278
your father.
lar to
enced by your
wonder
to
what extent you've been
influ-
father.
Not even my father could influence me. I've

nobody can influence me! Yes, I was fond of my father. Yes, I admired him. But that's all. I never tried to copy
him, to imitate him. Nor would it have been possible, even if
I'd wanted to. As personalities we were too different, and even
the historical circumstances in which we found ourselves were
M.R.P.:
None
at all.
told you,
too different.
to
My
father started
When
from nothing.
he came
power, the country had nothing. Nor did he even have the
problems we have today on the

Russians.
And my
The
relations with everyone.
by the British,
selves
frontiers, especially
father could afford to have
who
with the
good neighborly
only basic threat was represented
1907 had divided Iran between them-
in
and the Russians, and wanted
Iran to constitute a kind
of no man's land between Russia and their empire in India.
But
later the British
easy for
my
gave up this plan and things
became
fairly
father.
...
from nothing, I found a throne.

on the throne than I found myself having
to lead a country occupied by foreigners. And I was only
twenty-one. That's not much, twenty-one, not much. Besides,
I didn't only have to keep the foreigners in check and nothing
had to face a sixth column on the extreme right and exelse.
treme left to exert greater influence on us, the foreigners had
No, it wasn't
created the extreme right and extreme left.
easy for me. Maybe it was more difficult for me than for my
father. Without counting the period of the cold war, which
lasted up until a few years ago.
O.F.: Majesty, you just mentioned the problems you have on the
I,
instead
But no sooner was
didn't start
Which is your worst neighbor today?

You can never tell, since you never know who your worst
neighbor is. But I'd be inclined to say that at the moment it's
frontiers.
M.R.P.:
Iraq.
O.F.: I'm surprised, Majesty, that
neighbor.
M.R.P.:
The
Soviet Union.
good diplomatic and trade
we have
you should
was expecting you
gas pipeline.
With
the Soviet
relations.
I
cite Iraq as
to say the Soviet
mean we
With
sell
your worst
Union.
Union we have
Union
the Soviet
gas to the
Soviet
Mohammed
Union. Technicians come
the cold war
over.
is
Riza Pahlavi
to us
279
from the Soviet Union. And
But the question with the Soviet Union
always be the same, and in negotiating with the Russians,
will
must always keep
Iran
communist or
in
mind
No one
not?
Russian imperialism.
And though
imperialistic policy, the fact
ous today because

say
it's
it's
become
the chief dilemma: to
can be so crazy or naive as to deny

Russia has always had an
remains
linked to
it's
much more
communist dogma.
danger-
mean
to
easier to face countries that are only imperialist than
countries that are both imperialist and communist. There's
what
USSR's pincer movement. There's their dream

Ocean by passing through the Persian
call the
of reaching the Indian

Gulf.
And
Iran
this bastion,
and
is
the
last
bastion for the defense of our civili-
what we consider decent.
zation, of
So the problem of
will to resist.
now on.
O.F.: And Iran
If
they were to
our survival would depend
today
is
resisting
pretty strong militarily, isn't
M.R.P.: Very strong, but not strong
enough
to
try to attack
on our capacity
comes up from
solely
it?
be able to
resist
the
For instance,
Russians in case of attack. That's obvious.
bomb. But I feel strong enough to resist

should the Third World War break out. Yes, I said Third
World War. Many think the Third World War can only break
don't have the atomic
out over the Mediterranean, but
more
who
easily over Iran.
say
it
Oh, much more
easily!
control the world's energy resources.
the world,
oil
can break out
To
It's
much
we, in
reach the
doesn't go through the Mediterranean,
through the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean. So
if
fact,
rest
it
of
goes
the So-
And we'd probably be

overcome, and then the noncommunist countries could
hardly sit there with their hands folded. And they'd intervene.
And it would be the Third World War. Obviously. The nonUnion were
viet
to attack us,
we'd
resist.
communist world couldn't accept the disappearance of Iran,

because it knows that to lose Iran would mean to lose everything. Have
made myself clear?
I
O.F.: Perfectly clear.
World War
like
And
horribly.
something
Because you
that's
talk of the
going to happen
Third
in the
near
future. Majesty.
M.R.P.:
speak of
it
as
something possible with the hope
that
it
28o
won't happen. As a possibility for the near future,
see instead
war with one of our neighbors. After all, we have

nothing but enemies on our frontiers. It's not only Iraq that's
a small
giving us trouble.
O.F.:
And your
great friend. Majesty,
mean
the United States,
is
geographically remote.
M.R.P.: If you're asking
swer
is
States
me who
our only friend
isn't
consider our best friend, the an-
among
the United States
others.
plenty
Because the United
of countries
show us
friendship and believe in us, in the importance of Iran. But
the United States understands us better for the simple reason

that
many
has so
it
interests here.
Economic and
and therefore
direct interests, political
therefore
indirect interests.
one of the keys, to the

world. I need only add that the United States cannot shut itself
up within the borders of its country, it cannot go back to the
Monroe Doctrine. It's obliged to honor its responsibilities toward the world and thus to be concerned with us. And that
does nothing to detract from our independence, because everyone knows that our friendship with the United States
I've just said that Iran
doesn't
made
for
make
the key, or
is
us slaves of the United States.
The
Not elsewhere. Not

along with Nixon as I've
here, in Teheran.
example.
get
other presidents of the United States, but
along with
friend.
him only
if
in
decisions are
Washington,
got along with
can continue
I'm sure that he's treating
In fact, as a friend
who
to get
me
as a
within a few years will repre-
sent a world power.

O.F.:
The United
States
is
also
good friends with
Israel,
and you've
expressed yourself lately toward Jerusalem in very harsh terms.

Less harshly toward the Arabs, on the other hand, with
whom
seems you want to improve relations.

M.R.P.: We base our policy on fundamental principles, and we canit
not accept the idea that a country, in this case
annex
territory
this principle
is
through the use of arms.

applied to the Arabs,
plied to us. You'll

tiers
war.
tell
me
it's
it
We
Israel,
should
can't because
may one day
always been like
if
be ap-
this, that fron-
have always changed as a result of the use of arms and

I
no reason to recognize this fact as a

Besides everyone knows that Iran has accepted
agree, but that's
valid principle.
Mohammed
UN
the
you
are
What's
from using the

it's
to
21
the Arabs lose faith in the
if
persuade them that they've been de-
to
keep them from taking their revenge? Even
weapon? Oil
oil
go
will
to their heads. Besides
already going to their heads.
you
O.F.: Majesty,
M.R.P.: Oil
should
Arabs but
side with the
care
why
if it
shouldn't
goes to Israel?
our personal relations with
embassy
in
Israel?
goes where
It
Israel, as
Jerusalem but we have
it
you know, we have no
Israeli
We're Muslims but not Arabs. And

very independent position.
Our oil
And why
goes. And as
anyone.
to
go to
it
the Israelis.
sell oil to
and so
sold by the oil companies,
is
goes everywhere
for
and
resolution of 1967,
UN, how
feated?
Riza Pahlavi
technicians in Iran.
in foreign policy
we
take a
Does such a position foresee the day when Iran and Israel will
normal diplomatic relations?
M.R.P.: No. Or rather, not until the question of the withdrawal of
O.F.:
establish
Israeli
And
troops from the occupied territories has been resolved.
as for the possibilities of this question
can only say that the

live in
Israelis
peace with the Arabs.
It's
And
keep
up
it
occur
on nursing the
time of
its
Europe
who spend
it's
the
also
strikes, for
and
How
example.
long will
fantastic spirit that inspired
Israel
it
go
at the
new genwho come from Eastern
formation? I'm thinking especially of the
to find
said Iran
materials,
they want to
how either the Arabs or Israelis can

Besides, new phenomena are beginning to
terrible
erations in Israel,
O.F.: Majest>',
if
don't see
for long.
in Israel
not only the Arabs
enormous sums of money on war

Israelis.
being resolved,
have no choice
you
and of the
Israelis
themselves treated differently from the others.
said
something
would soon represent
You
while ago that struck me.

a
wodd
haps referring to the forecasts of those
Were you
economists who say
power.
perthat
within thirty-six years Iran should be the richest country in the
world?
M.R.P.:
To
say
it
will
become
perhaps going too

greatest
far.
the richest country in the world
But
to say
it
will rank
and most powerful countries
Thus
in the
among
world
is
the five
isn't
going
same level as the

United States, the Soviet Union, Japan, and France.
don't
mention China because China isn't a rich countrv, nor can it
too far at
all.
Iran will find itself at the

202
become
one
within
if
twenty-five
years
it
reaches
the
1,400,000,000 inhabitants that have been predicted. We, on

the other hand,
twenty-five years will be 60,000,000 at
in
we can expect
most. Oh, yes,
and great strength,

no coincidence that
great wealth,
may
whatever the communists
say.
It's
I'm getting ready to launch a birth control program.

here's the point
omy
want
make: you can't separate the econ-
to
is rich economibecomes powerful on an

when speaking of the economy,
from other things, and once
cally,
it
becomes
international level. Besides,

oil
I'm
country
rich in every sense.
I'm not only referring to
It
referring to a balanced econ-
omy
that includes every kind of production,
trial
to the agricultural,
made
should have
And
from handicrafts
from the indus-
We
to electronics.
the transition from carpets to computers
the result, instead,
that we've kept the carpets while adding
is
We
make carpets by hand, but we also

make them by machine. What's more, we make wall-to-wall
carpeting. Every year we double our national production.
Anyway there are so many signs that we'll become a world
power. Ten years ago, for instance, when my White Revoluthe computers.
still
tion began, there were only 1,000,000 students in the schools.
Today
there
and
3,100,000,
are
ten
in
years
there'll
be
5,000,000 or 6,000,000.
O.F.:
You've
esty,
puters,
made
we
all
know
and that
rugs,
thanks to
it's
It's
thanks to
it's
thanks to
simple.
it
we
Shall
oil.
can exploit
that
about the policy you've
finally talk
and with regard to the West?

this
oil and I can't drink it. But
have
rest
it
of the world. Therefore

sale
its
to
I've
of
from being used
to
I've
chosen
I've
already said that
and everyone knows that
Arab, therefore what
do
is
a policy
my
It
never thought of aligning
myself with the Arab countries that were threatening

mail the West.
rest
everyone without distinction.
hasn't been a difficult choice
dent,
know
to the utmost without blackmailing the
of guaranteeing
Maj-
you have com-
oil
the world and even by trying to keep
blackmail the
referring to oil,
oil that
you turn out machineare also coming to you
oil that
and that tomorrow's riches
adopted concerning
M.R.P.:
you weren't only
just said that
but
my
country
country
is
is
to black-
indepen-
Muslim but not
not to suit the Arabs but to help
Mohammed
283
Riza Pahlavi
you can make a

me and
the Arabs. Because the countries that say "we won't sell any
more oil to the West" don't know what to do with their money
needs money, and with
Iran. Besides Iran
lot
Oh,
of money.
oil
whole difference between
that's the
and so they don't worry about the future. Often they have a
population of only six or seven hundred thousand inhabitants
much money
and so
in the
pumping
or four years without
have these thirty-one and
economy
to
Therefore
develop,
that they could live for three
or selling a drop of
oil.
a half million inhabitants,
program of reforms
need money.
know what
pump
can't afford not to
bank
oil.
to
to
Not I.
and an
complete.
do with money, and
can't afford not to sell
to
it
anyone.
O.F.:
Meanwhile Qaddafi
Me
M.R.P.: Traitor?!?
my
into
calls
a traitor,
you
a traitor.
when
taken the whole business
I've
hands and already dispose of
fifty-one percent of the
production that formerly belonged exclusively to foreign
companies?
me and
insult to
seriously.
all
country as
that he shouldn't
Look,
hand, will
sixt}'.
much
scream so
last at least thirty
very, very likely that
But even
if
1976
new
Our
we'll be extracting as
M.R.P.:
That
still
sell
the West, and
decision not to blackmail the

follow
If
my
example.
If
not
all
like
Iran,
it
terms.
They
visibly increasing
quite a
OPEC
may
West
in
lot.
hasn't yet decided
very well be that
my
induce the Arabs
will
the Arabs, at least
Some
to
some of them.
countries aren't in-
they haven't the experts Iran has, and
they don't have the people behind
my own
is
few enemies. Majesty.
not right away, in a short time.
dependent
manage extremely
we'll
as eight million barrels a
lot,
can't say. In fact, the
oil to
on the other
oil,
deposits will be discovered.
much
any case, you've made quite
not to
My
And maybe fifty,

we discover new deposits,
production
day. Eight million barrels are a

O.F.: In
the Libyan oil reserves
or forty years.
that shouldn't happen,
well just the same.
at
serving his
in
can only remind him
depends on whether or not
It
it's
Mr. Qaddafi
can't take this
be exhausted in ten years' time.
will
and
can only wish him success
succeed in serving mine,
oil
wasn't aware Mr. Qaddafi had addressed such an
still
can't.
them
It's
as
do.
can dictate
not easy to reach a point
284
where you can
sell
your
oil directly
and be
com-
free of the oil
panies that have had a monopoly for decades and decades.
And
.
if
even the Arab countries were
Oh,
would be
it
so
much
to follow
my
decision
simpler, and safer too,
Western countries were exclusively buyers and we

sellers!
.
There'd be no resentment, blackmail, rancor,
Yes,
and
in
open
it
may
to
hostility.
very well be that I'm setting a good example,
any case I'm going ahead with
anyone who wants
many have
the
if
direct
it.
Our
doors are wide
to sign a contract with us,
and
already offered to do so. British, Americans, Japa-
Germans. They were
nese, Dutch,
so shy in the beginning.
But now they're becoming ever more daring.

O.F.:
And
the Italians?
selling much oil to the Italians at the moment,

we may reach an important agreement with ENI * and I
think we're on the way to doing so. Yes, we may become ex-
We're not
M.R.P.:
but
ENI, and anyway our relations with the

Italians have always been good. Ever since the time of Mattei.
Wasn't the agreement I signed with Mattei in 1957 my first
cellent partners with
success in breaking the old system of exploitation by foreign
companies? Oh,
but
him.
a
know
I
man
I'll
liked
don't
know what
oil
others say about Mattei,
never be able to be objective in talking about
him
too
much. He was
a very
decent fellow, and
capable of reading the future, a really exceptional per-
sonality.
O.F.:
As
a matter of fact, they killed
M.R.P.: Probably.
him.
But he shouldn't have been
bad
flying in that
and
oil
The
bad
just
the
wasn't
it
can really become a curse. But maybe
weather. And anyway it was a great shame. For us too. Well,
weather.
fog in
Milan
gets very thick in winter,
I'm not saying that Mattei's death brought about a setback in
our relations with ENI. No, no, since we're about

a large deal. Mattei couldn't have
we're about to do
had
lived,
back and
Do you
really the
this
to
conclude
better, since
maximum.
Still if
what
Mattei
agreement years ago.

you mentioned before,
clarify the point
or don't you think that the Arabs will end by
Ente Nazionale Idrocarburi
note.)
is
we'd have reached
O.F.: I'd like to go
Majesty.
now
done any
National
Hydrocarbon Authority. (Translator's
Mohammed
Riza Pahlavi
carrying out their threat to cut off

M.R.P.:
It's
hard to
To
inclined to say no.
of
oil to
the West?
just as easily
chance of being wrong. But
cut off
would be
profit,
all sales
Very hard, because one can
say.
say yes or no, with an equal
source of
285
be
I'd
up
the West, to give
oil to
that
them.
a very difficult decision for
and while
Not all the Arabs

some may not need money, others certainly do.
O.F. And meanwhile the price of oil will go up?
M.R.P.: It certainly will. Oh, most certainly! You can carry back the
bad news and add that it comes from someone who knows
what he's talking about. I know everything there is to know
are following Qaddafi's policy,
about
everything.
oil,
really
It's
my
specialty.
a specialist that the price of oil will
other solution. But
it's
on yourselves. Or,
if
like,
And
you
tell
as
go up. There's no
to
you Westerners have brought

brought on by your
a solution
you
have
a solution
overcivilized industrial society. You've increased the price of

wheat by three hundred percent, and the same for sugar and
cement. You've sent the price of petrochemicals skyrocketing.
You buy crude
from us and then
oil
You make
only
it's
Ten
us
fair that
Let's say
O.F.
pay more
from
sell
back
it
to us, refined
hundred times what you paid
into petrochemicals, at a
for everything, scandalously
now on you
for
it.
more, and
should pay more for
oil.
ten times more.
times more?!
M.R.P.: But you're the ones,
who
repeat,
me
force
to raise prices!
you have your reasons. But too, if may say

in
so, have mine. Besides we won't go on quarreling forever
less than a hundred years this business of oil will be finished.
And
certainly
The need
posits are
for oil
rising at
is
an accelerated pace, the
de-
oil
being exhausted, and you'll soon have to find
new
sources of energy. Atomic, solar, or something. There'll have

to
be
we'll
many
solutions;
even have
one won't be enough. For example,

by the ocean tides.
to resort to turbines driven
Even I'm thinking of building atomic

nating sea water.
has
come
else we'll
have
installations for desali-
to drill
thousand meters below sea
for oil at ten
North Pole
Or
...
don't know.
to take strong
always done.
It's
more
know only
that the
measures and not waste
crime
to use
it
as
deeply, look
level, look for
wc
it
at
the
moment
oil as
we've
do today, crude.
If
286
we'd only think that soon there won't by any more,

only remember that
derivatives,
namely, petrochemical products.
always a shock, for instance, to see crude
oil
price,
it's
lasting
about
talk
we'd
For
oil,
it's
the fact that oil
and that before we exhaust
it
it's
we must
Oh,
lost.
the most important thing
not Qaddafi's boycott,
me
used for electrical
generators, without paying any heed to the value
when you
if
can be transformed into ten thousand
it
is
the
isn't
not ever-
new
invent
sources of energy.
O.F.:
This curse we
M.R.P.:
call oil.
Sometimes
wonder
if
when you have

other
it's
it,
we
on the one hand
call oil,
it's
a blessing but
inconvenience. Because
a great
it is. So much
and believe me,
not really what
that's
has been written about the curse
it
on the
represents such a
The world could blow up on account of this damned

I see
And even if, like me, you're fighting the threat
danger.
oil.
O.F.: I'm smiling.

talk
about
attention.
oil.
You
light up,
you
vibrate,
You become another man.
when you
you concentrate your
the two elements that merge in

.
And
Majesty.
On
modern and
you're so ancient, on the other so
Majesty, because you're so different
going away without having understood you.
Eastern that
Why?
you're smiling.
I'm
the one hand,

.
Maybe
it's
you, the Western and the
No, we Iranians aren't all that different from you Europeans. If our women wear the veil, so do yours. The veil of
the Catholic Church. If our men have more than one wife, so
do yours. The wives you call mistresses. And if we believe in
visions, you believe in dogmas. If you think yourselves supe-
M.R.P.:
rior, we have no complexes. Don't ever forget that whatever

you have, we taught you three thousand years ago.
see now you're smiling too,
O.F.: Three thousand years ago
more. Ah, it's too bad we
any
look
sad
You
don't
so
Majesty.
.
on the business of the blacklists.

M.R.P.: But can you really be on the blacklist?
O.F.: Majesty! As if you didn't know, you the King of Kings and
who knows everything! But I told you, it may well be. I'm on
can't agree
everybody's blacklist.
Mohammed
M.R.P.:
What
a pity.
the blackhst of
my
O.F.:
Or
my
rather,
it
287
Riza Pahlavi
doesn't matter.
authorities,
I'll
Even
heart.
You
frighten
me. Majesty. Thank you. Majesty.
Teheran, October 197
if
you're
put you on the white
list
on
of
12
Helder Camara
His church was a poor church in the
city of Recife, there in the
north of Brazil where the only thing beautiful

close to the equator,
it is
and the drought had
is
always hot. That year
killed plants, children,
nothing else because there was nothing
it
the sea and, being
had never rained,
hopes.
It
had
else in Recife except
killed
dozens
and dozens of baroque churches, coated by time with a black pano one thinks to clean. His church instead was
tina of dirt that
There the only dirt was the

inscription in blood-red paint, which he had whitewashed over, but
the paint showed through and the inscription was legible. It said,
''Morte ao bispo vermelho. " Death to the Red Bishop. It had been left
there not long before by his persecutors, when they fired those maclean, white as his good conscience.
at him and threw hand bombs. And since then

church plaza was almost always deserted; many people were
to go near it. If you asked a policeman, 'Tor favor onde est
chine-gun bursts
the
little
afraid
a Igreja das Fronteiras?'' he looked
down
the license
number
of your
at
you suspiciously and jotted

happened to me. The taxi
taxi. It
driver was quaking with terror.
His house was attached to the church and hardly seemed the
dwelling of an archbishop. Clothed in
soft fabrics,
covered with
jewels, waited on by obsequious footmen, archbishops usually

in palaces
with entrances on elegant
reached by a
street
streets.
perpendicular to the
little
live
His instead could be

plaza,
Rua
das Fron-
Helder Camara
289
and was enclosed by the low wall against which they had fired
machine guns. In this low wall you hardly noticed the little
door with its green enamel paint, and the bell with no name. You
rang the bell, some chickens fluttered, a cock crowed, and mingling with this noise a soft voice was heard: 'Tm coming, I'm comteiras,
their
Then
ing!"
the door opened, cautiously at
and there stood
hesitantly,
still
the cassock a
The
eye.
mouth,
who
wooden
man was
little
nose
little
cross
little
man
suspended by a
then widely, but
first,
in a
black cassock.
steel
On
chain caught the
pale, bald, with a wrinkled face, a witty
like a boiled chestnut,
much
doesn't get
sleep.
He had
and the
of one
humble look
tired eyes
the innocuous,
of a parish priest.
He was not, he is not, a parish priest, and not even a little man.
He is the most important man you can meet in Brazil, or rather in
all of Latin America. And perhaps the most intelligent, the most
courageous. He is Dom Helder Camara, the archbishop who defies
the
government and denounces the
about which others keep
ism and say no to violence.
Nobel Peace
anything,
The
is
Many
him
call
a saint. If the
word
means
saint
government does not think so. The Brazilian govfascist, most sinister government that
perhaps the most
in Latin
freedom,
and infamies
too say he's a saint.
Brazilian
ernment
exists
Prize.
injustices, abuses,
who has the guts to preach socialMore than once he was up for the
silent,
its
America. For those
who oppose
by demanding
it
police inflict tortures that surpass any imagining.
They
use the pan de arara, or parrot's perch, which consists of a pole

similar to the
serted
one on which
parrots swing.
Of iron
or wood,
it
is
in-
between the knees and the arm sockets of the naked victim,
then hoisted up and held halfway between the floor and the ceiling.
Here the victim remains hanging during the interrogation, and
bound
since his feet and ankles are

circulation
is
plode, as though
And
its
by cords, the blood
weight had increased tenfold.
then, for those opponents
the "hydraulic method,"

is
tightly
stopped and the body swells as though about to ex-
which
who demand
freedom, there
consists of a flexible tube; the tube
introduced into the victim's nose and water poured into
the
mouth
in fact
it
moment
is
is
held shut.
a partial
of death.
Thus
drowning
And
the victim feels he
then,
is
to
be interrupted a
for those
it
while
drowning, and
is
little
opponents
before the
who demand
290
freedom, there are electric shocks to be apphed to the
ears, genitals,
anus, and tongue.
The
up
produces epileptic seizures, violent convulsions,
and
to 230,
it
charge
is
generally of 110 volts but
may go
third-degree burns, sometimes death, as has happened in a great
many
cases, including the
Such
the
a journalist
who
received a charge
died at once.
on
tortures are inflicted
DOPS,
all
who
those
fall
into the
hands of
the Division of Public and Social Order, the Brazilian
military criminal police.
nuns and
nists,
one of
He
of 230 volts in the anus.
They
are inflicted
on
liberals
and
commu-
and students, even foreign citiBrazil are full, and have been for many years.
guerrillas
priests,
The prisons in
You know when you go in but you never know when you'll come
out. If you come out alive, in eighty cases out of a hundred you
come out mutilated with a broken spine, paralyzed legs, crushed
testicles, eyes and ears that no longer function. The literature on
this infamy is endless. You can find it in the mimeographed sheets
zens.
issued
by resistance organizations,
American and European
in
newspapers, in embassy dispatches. Even
because Brazil
is
far
if
away, because Brazil
with sea, music, sambas, coffee, because
it is
the world often forgets,

is
a vacationland filled
not "convenient" to
dis-
turb the trade relations between democratic countries and dicta-
even though the tragedy
torships,
But beware of talking about
denouncing
sions to
it
or
Camara
is
the only one
small group of prelates

pays for
it
on
is
public knowledge.
in Brazil,
And most
beware of making
people keep
silent.
allu-
Helder
who dares to raise his voice, together with a

who have not forgotten the Gospels. But he
God, how he
tures inflicted
it.
it
pays!
When
in Paris
political prisoners in the
he described the
jails
tor-
of Sao Paulo, Rio
de Janeiro, Belo Horizonte, Porto Alegre, Recife, they called him

"traitor,"
tions
"defamer," "demagogue."
from the
little
house
in
Rua
When
he
fired off his
accusa-
das Frontieras, they fired back
machine guns and wrote Morte ao bispo vermelho on the wall.

infamous Brazilian authorities consider him a public
menace, and keep careful watch on his every gesture, his every en-
their
And
so these
counter.
The people instead worship him. They turn to him as to a father

who never rejects them and is ready to receive them at any hour of
the day or night.
If he's
an oppressed person
in
not
at
some
home,
prison,
it
means he has gone to see

some hovel, some village

Helder Camara
291
where people die of hunger and thirst before reaching the age of
forty and where death is a merciful liberation. If then he is not in
Recife, it means he is traveling about the world, to shout out his
now
message and his indignation,
now
Detroit,
Vatican
the
in
in Berlin,
now
in Kyoto,
arms
emaciated
his
now
raised
in
to
God. Though
nonviolent, he is a man who has chosen combat, cost what it may.
And the fortresses he attacks are the fortresses of shame, privilege,
heaven and
his
dictatorship.
He
fingers tensed claws reaching for
no one: neither Catholics nor Marxists, neicommunist ones, but least of all does he
spares
ther capitalist empires nor
whom
spare the fascists,
termined
Dom
he thrashes with the anger of a Christ de-
to drive the Pharisees
from the temple.
bom
Helder Camara was
in Fortaleza, in the northeast of
His father was a tradesman
Brazil, in 1909.
who
dabbled in jour-
nalism and theatrical criticism, his mother a teacher in an elementary school.
petit bourgeois origin.
And he
five
other children in the family died a few
tery
and lack of treatment. He went

His vocation burst out
boy.
teriously
at the
and insistendy. From
apart, of dysen-
seminary very
early, as a
age of eight, he says
mys-
then on he never conceived any
other
commitment
priest
toward the age of twenty-two,
for
to the
never knew wealth
months
himself except that of a
priest.
when he became
He became
a fascist. Yes,
one of us sleeps a fascist

and sometimes he never wakes up; sometimes instead he does." He
tells it without shame, scourging himself by this admission, and the
for
some time he was
a fascist. ''In every
when he
only justification he offers
is
who
a fascist.
asked
soft fabrics,
him
become
to
explains that
One
it
was
his
bishop
of those bishops clothed in
covered with jewels, waited on by obsequious footmen,
with entrances on elegant streets. One of

whose motto is God-Fatherland-Family.
Ah, yes, he knows the fascists well, Dom Helder does. He knew
them long before he landed in this little church in Recife, in this
little house where the hens flutter inside, and where he gets only
four hours of rest out of twenty-four because at night they awaken
him by continually telephoning insults to frighten him: "We're
coming to get you now and kill you, you dirty communist." "Com-
and
who
live in palaces
those
mend your
soul to
you ugly son of
God
because you won't
a bitch."
sleep a night are
enough
But he says
for
him.
it
live to see the
morning,
doesn't matter; four hours of
292
I
interviewed
him
there, in the course of three days.
We
spoke in
French, a language he knows well, and very often he seemed
more
like a political leader
than a
He had
priest.
voice of a leader, the shining eyes, the sureness of one
Every half hour he got up and went
he's believed.
Then he came back
coffee.
to
me
the impassioned
to
who knows
make me
with the coffee and cookies, taking the
street, to check that no one was there

daub the wall again or throw a bomb. I followed him with my
gaze and thought of Camilo Torres, the young priest who had put
away his cassock to shoulder a gun and had died in his first combat,
occasion to peer out into the

to
a bullet in the
middle of his forehead.
Alencar, the young
Dominican
whom
thought of Father Tito de
the
DOPS
had tortured
in
Sao Paulo with all the inhumanity of the Inquisition. Open your
mouth and we'll give you the consecrated host before killing you.
Then
instead of the host, they gave
the tongue.
thought of
all
him
charge of 222 volts on
the priests and nuns
who
fill
the prisons
of Latin America and die in their sufferings, while the bishops

clothed in
soft fabrics,
covered with jewels, and waited on by ob-
sequious footmen collaborate with the generals in power and protect the executioners.
In Brazil, in Chile, in
Venezuela, Guatemala.
And
came
won't give you the Nobel Peace Prize,

give
it
And
to you.
to
Uruguay, Paraguay,
the conclusion:
Dom
"They
Helder. They'll never
You're too disturbing.
indeed they didn't give
it
Willy Brandt, and in 1973 when
to
him. In 1971 they gave
his
name came
it
to
up again, they
Henry Kissinger and Le Due Tho. And Le Due Tho,

thank heaven, refused it. Not Kissinger. As we all know.
gave
it
to
ORIANA FALLACI: There's a rumor, Dom Helder, that Paul VI calls

you "my red archbishop." And as a matter of fact, you can
hardly be a convenient man for the Vatican. You must scare a
lot of people inside it. Shall we talk about this a little?
HELDER CAMARA: Look, the pope knows very well what I say and do.
When I denounce the tortures in Brazil, the pope knows it.
When I fight for political prisoners and the poor, the pope
knows it. When I travel abroad to plead for justice, the pope
knows it. He's known my opinions for some time because
Helder Camara
we've
exact,
known each other for some

when he was prosecretary of
don't hide anything from him;
was wrong
for
felt
it
me
to stop, I'd stop.
know
me
ordinary
And
never have.
if
if
affairs.
the pof)e
he were
to tell
Church and
a servant of the
the value of sacrifice.
archbishop," he does
way they do here
tionary
Since 1950, to be
time.
state for
do what I'm doing,
Because I'm
But the pope doesn't

the
to
293
is
me
that,
and
if
he
calls
me
his "red
jokingly, affectionately, certainly not
in Brazil
said to be a
The
munists.
tell
it
where anyone who's not
communist
a reac-
or in the service of the
com-
were an
agita-
accusation doesn't touch me.
If
communist, I wouldn't be able to go to the United

States and receive honoris causa degrees from American universities. Having said that, however, I should make it clear
that by my ideas and speeches I don't pledge the authority of
tor,
what
the pope
bility.
Which
to speak out.
denounced
and do
say
doesn't
The
first
is
my
make me
exclusive personal responsi-
hero
I'm not
the only one
tortures in Brazil, for instance,
have been
and foremost by the papal commission, which
does pledge the authorit>' of the pope. The pope himself has
condemned them, and his condemnation counts for much
more than that of a poor priest who doesn't scare anyone in
the Vatican.
O.F.:
poor
priest
who's
a prince of the
most admired and respected
whom
poor
men
Church, who's one of the
in the world.
they're thinking of giving the
priest
who when he
poor
Nobel Peace
priest to
Prize.
speaks of the tortures succeeds in
ing the whole Palais de Sport in Paris and
awakening the con-
science of millions of people in ever>' country. Shall
about
this,
Dom
fill-
we
talk
Helder?
it was like this. I was in Paris and they asked me to tell

what was going on. I said sure, it's also a priest's duty to inform people, especially with regard to a country like Brazil
where the press is controlled or subser\ient to the go\crnmcnt.
H.C: Well,
began by reminding the PVench that
crime quite familiar to themselves,

during the Algerian war: torture.
I'd
be talking about
who had been
guilty of
a
it
I
added that such infamies
happened through the weakness of us Christians, who are
too accustomed to bowing before power and its institutions or
also
294
keeping
else to
anything
silent.
new because
it
explained that
was no longer
Middle Ages,
sufferings, like those of the
prisoners
ical
Brazil
in
wouldn't be telling
inhuman
a secret that
are inflicted
on
polit-
documentation had
irrefutable
al-
ready been published everywhere.
Then
methods of
described the
And
shocks to the pau de arara.
from
torture
myself had checked. For example, the case of
whom
a student to
they did such horrible things that he threw himself
from the window of
name. And the
De
there together with
condition.
tortures,
one of
my
Among
And
advisers.
Ledeiros
at suicide,
As soon
as
rushed
was able
he was
his
is
to see
in fright-
other things, they had torn out four of
and crushed
Those
his testicles.
two regular
are
The
him confirmed this to me and
a doctor, tell him to come here
tearing out fingernails and crushing testicles.
who was
"Go to the
doctor
taking care of
said,
governor, he's
and examine the bodies of the tortured."

looking
De
Ledeiros was in the hospital,
him. Quite aside from the attempt
his fingernails
Luis
a police station.
story goes essentially like this.
learned that Luis
ful
electric
incidents that
related
for: to
have
in
my
hands,
It
finally,
was
just
what
was
a direct witness.
went immediately to the governor's palace, with my

bishop, and made the denunciation. Then I forwarded the denunciation to all the parishes, all the bishops, and to the conauxiliary
ference of bishops.
O.F.:
Some
bishops don't believe
with those
who deny
it,
Dom
the tortures.
Helder, and they side
How
do you judge these
men?
H.C.:
How
do you want
enlighten them,
I've
me
to
judge them! By hoping that
make them worthy of
God
always been for the pluralism of the Church, but
see the ones
who
will
their responsibilities.
when
represent the putrid part of the Church,
get
the urge to say what Pope John said to certain individuals:
"Dear Father, don't you know you're

of
God
has never got to you, has
it?"
really rotten?
Good
Lord,
it
The
was
spirit
legiti-
mate at first, or almost, to have doubts about the tortures.

There was no proof. But to doubt it today is grotesque. Examples have been published in the report of the World Associwith names, surnames, dates. And then how
ation of Jurists
Helder Camara
many
295
They're not the majority since
priests are in prison?
it's
more convenient to arrest a layman than a priest, to torture a

layman than a priest, but there are still many and they're valuyou can succeed
them.
in getting to
say "if"
able witnesses
if
because today
when you go to prison, it becomes imanyone know and to get in touch with a relative
possible to
let
in Brazil
or lawyer. But even that's not the worst thing
it's
the silence
of the press and citizens. Neither one nor the other dares speak
and
out,
so
it
looks as though the people are in accord with
the regime, that the victims are telling falsehoods or exaggerating.
can only hope that the scandal
that's
broken out
in the
world press and the intervention of the world Church will help
to
O.F.:
improve things.
What happened
made
H.C:
to you,
Dom
Helder, after the statements you
in Paris?
To denounce the tortures in Brazil is considered by the government a crime against the fatherland. And on this point too
there's a certain divergence of views between me and the government. In
fact,
consider
not to denounce them. So
happens
to
you,
Dom
Nothing happened.
it
left
Helder,
crime against the fatherland
Paris thinking. We'll see
when you
what
get back to Brazil.
went quietly through the
police, the cus-
toms, and went home. True, there were attacks in the press.
Curious, funny attacks. But
don't care about those, since
rarely read the newspapers, so as to avoid getting bitter.
sides
it's
useless to try to intimidate
no doubts, and what's
in
my
me;
in
my
Be-
heart there are
heart goes directly to
my
lips.
say to my flock, in my pastoral visits, in my sermons, the same

things I'm saying to you. Nor can they drown me out, since in
recognize no other authority but the
the exercise of my office
pope. Of course, I'm forbidden to speak on the radio, on television, and since I'm not naive I'm aware that sooner or later
I
they might deprixe
me
of
my
civil rights.
For whatever those
no one can exercise the vote, there

enjoy a certain freedom;
But on the whole
are worth, since in Brazil

arc
no
elections.
they only bother

O.F.:
What
H.C: Death
mc
with threats.
kind of threats?
threats,
no? Machine-gun
and slander addressed
to
fire,
bombs, telephone calls,

You must know that
the Vatican.
296
here in Brazil there's an extreme
"Family and Security." They
some time
ago.
movement
rightist
called
me
started using that to harass
They approached people on
church and asked them, "Are you
way
their
to
commu-
for or against
nism?" The people said against, naturally, and so they collected signatures
and then sent them
Dom
"throw out that communist
to
gave
it
any importance, and neither did
But then
Ku Klux
Command,
or
CCC.
at us, or
And
This
CCC
home where
at
machine-gun
and made
once
On
me.
and
now
me
several times this
they ruined the wall with
I'm
CCC.
at the
Catholic Institute,
accustomed
know
a
who preached
we found him hanged
bullets.
going.
in the
twenty-seven-year-old
Henrique Pereira Neto,
the slums;
body riddled with
to
But they've never injured
he's paralyzed forever.
teacher at the University of Recife,

in the favelas,
machine
insults on the
fires
it
the other hand, they shot a student
collaborator of mine,
his
live,
once
another church where
Always leaving the signature

spine and
a kind
mess on the wall of the church,
at the archbishop's palace,
in
movement,
throws hand bombs, and writes
fire
him
never
takes a particular interest in
they've paid their respects to
way: twice here
once
The pope
Klan, a so-called Communist-hunting
houses where suspected communists
walls.
pope, asking
I.
later there arose a clandestine
of Brazilian
guns
to the
Helder."
Things that
sociology
the Gospels
to a tree
in Recife are
and
no
longer surprising.
O.F.:
No
H.C.:
No,
longer surprising?!
They
like the
me
telephone threats.
I've
got used to
them by now.
and say,
communist, get ready to die, we're on
our way, and we're going to show you what hell looks like."
What idiots. I don't even answer them. I smile and. hang up
the receiver. But why do you pick it up in the first place?
you'll ask. Because it's my duty to answer the telephone. It
could be someone who's sick, who needs me, who's asking for
help. Am I a priest or not? During the world championship
soccer matches they calmed down a little. For those days they
only thought about the game. But then they started up again,
and last night too they didn't let me pray or get any sleep.
call
"You're an
at night, at
agitator, a
hour or half-hour
intervals,
Helder Camara
297
Every half hour, ring-ring! ''Hello, we're coming to
They
Idiots!
still
haven't understood that
it's
no use
kill
you."
killing
me;
there are plenty of priests like me.

O.F.
Dom
Unfortunately not,
But
let's
are
your
go back
political
Helder. Rather there are very few.
nickname of "red archbishop." What

views today? Are you a socialist, as people
to that
say, or not?
H.C:
Of course
ness,
am! God created man
in his
slave.
How
and made
can we allow the majority of
to live like slaves?
ism. But neither
do
see
it
like-
you don't
be exploited
to
in the socialist
on
examples that are

dictatorships,
and
arrive at socialism with dictatorship. Dictatorship
my
amazing admit
have already
that's
changing
ide fixe. Yes, the Marxist
that the Soviet
cess in
men
don't see any solution in capital-
offered us today, because they're based
is
own image and
because he was his cocreator and not because he was a
its
has shot ahead in a
own
still
structures,
we
experiment
Union has had great sucI

admit that Red China
more extraordinary way. But when I

Red China, the
read what's happening in the Soviet Union, in

purges, the informers, the arrests, the fear,
parallel with rightist dictatorships
find
the coldness with which the Soviet
such a strong
When
and fascism!
observe
Union behaves toward un-
derdeveloped countries, Latin America for instance,

so identical with the coldness of the
to
some example of my
see
United
States!
perhaps,
socialism,
countries outside the Russian or Chinese orbit

perhaps, Czechoslovakia before they crushed
there.
O.F.:
My
socialism
spects the
human
cialism
justice.
Dom
is
is
it.
find
might
it
try
certain
in
Tanzania,
But not even
a special socialism, a socialism that re-
person and goes back to the Gospels.
My
so-
Helder, there's no word so exploited as the word justice.
There's no more Utopian word than
mean by
justice.
What do you
justice?
H.C: Justice doesn't mean assigning evenone an identical quantity

of goods in an identical way. That would be dreadful.
It
would
be as though everyone had the same face and the same body
and the same voice and the same brain.

believe in the right
to have different faces and different bodies and different voices
and different brains God can afford the risk of being judged
I
298
God is not unjust and wants that there be no

and oppressed, he wants for each to receive what's
But
unjust.
privileged
essential for living
mean by
mean
justice?
remaining
^while
and international
a national
to
do
is
remember
To
demonstrate the
in the
latter all
that eighty percent of this planet's
resources are in the hands of twenty percent of
namely
both on
There's an internal colonial-
scale.
ism and an external colonialism.
you have
So what do
different.
a better distribution of goods,
its
countries,
hands of the superpowers or the nations that
serve the superpowers. Just to give tu'o small examples: in the
years the United States has earned a good eleven
last fifteen
on Latin America
billion dollars
that figure
the statistical bureau of Detroit University.

a
Canadian
tractor
Jamaica has
two hundred tons of sugar.
to
is
supplied by
just say that for
pay the equivalent of
... To
on the other hand,
Or
thirty-
demonstrate internal co-
do is think of
would be generous to call underdeveloped. Other areas remind you of prehistory: people there live as in the time of the caves and are
happy to eat what they find in the garbage. And what can I tell
these people? That they have to suffer to go to Paradise? Eternity begins here on earth, not in Paradise.
O.F.: Dom Helder, have you read Marx?
lonialism,
all
you have
to
Brazil. In northern Brazil there are areas that
B.C.: Sure.
And
don't agree with his conclusions but
with his analysis of capitalist society.
one the
fact
is
right to pin the label of
that
it
Marx should be
that has changed, that
is
Which
do agree
doesn't give any-
honorary Marxist on me. The
interpreted in the light of a reality
changing.
always
tell
young peo-
Marx literally; Marx should be utilized while keeping in mind that his analysis is of a century
ago. Today, for instance, Marx wouldn't say that religion is an
ple
it's
mistake to take
alienated and alienating force.
ment but such
pening with the
judgment
priests
is
Religion deserved that judg-
no longer
valid; look what's
hap-
of Latin America. Everywhere. Besides
many communists know it. People like the Frenchman

Garaudy know it, and it doesn't matter if people like Garaudy
they exist and they
are expelled from the Communist party
think, they incarnate what Marx would say in our time. What
can
say? The men on the left are often the most intelligent

Helder Camara
and most generous, but they
299
misunderstanding com-
live in a
pounded of naivete or blindness. They

heads that today there are
can't get
into their
it
the world: the two cap-
five giants in
two communist
giants, and a fifth giant that's

namely the underdeveloped world.
The first capitalist giant, there's no need to stress it, is called
the United States. The second is called the European Common Market, and it too behaves by all the rules of imperialism. The first communist giant is called the Soviet Union, the
second is called Red China, and only imbeciles delude themselves that the two capitalist empires are separated from the
two communist ones by their ideologies. They divided up the
world at Yalta and they go on dividing it up while dreaming of
giants, the
italist
with clay
a giant
feet,
second Yalta Conference. So
where
for us,
feet,
is
with the clay
for the fifth giant
there hope?
don't see
either in the
it
American and European capitalists or in the Russian and

Chinese communists.
O.F.: Dom Helder, I must ask you an embarrassing question. There
was a period in your life during which you embraced fascism.
How
was
it
H.C:
You have
And how
possible?
ferent choices?
did you arrive later at such dif-
Excuse the ugly reminder.
me
every right to remind
of that ugly
memory and
I'm not ashamed to answer. In every one of us sleeps a fascist
and sometimes he never wakes up; sometimes instead he does.

In me he woke up when I was young. I was twenty-two, I was
dreaming even then of changing the world, and I saw the
world divided between right and
left,
that
Brazil
it
was called
Integralist Action.
green shirts instead of black ones
And
solini.
that
their
sounded
youthful simplicity,
there weren't
ten
And
to.
chose fascism. In
The
many
me.
my
How
good
do
faith,
under Mus-
motto
judge this now? By
my
books to read, nor
also by the fact that
wore
integralists
like the Italians
motto was God-Fatherland-Family
fine to
com-
fascism and
is
munism. As an opponent of communism,
my
lack of information
many
sane
men
to lis-
my superior, the bishop of

me to work with the in-
Ceara, was favorable and had asked

tegralists.
seven?
when
You know
began
worked with them
till
was twenty-
to suspect that that wasn't the right path
arrived in Rio de Janeiro,
only
where Cardinal Leme, who
300
didn't think like the bishop in Ceara, ordered
the
me
to
abandon
movement.
I'm not embarrassed to
you
tell
this,
because any experi-
ence, any mistake, enriches you and teaches you
if
nothing
To the fascists of today,

know
what I'm talking about when
say there's not only fascism,
there's not only communism; reality is much more complicated. But you want to know how arrived at my choices today.
The answer is simple: when a man works in contact with suffering, he always ends up being pregnant with suffering. Many
else,
understand others.
to
reactionaries
are
what they
because they don't know
are
When did
get pregnant? Who
that my pregnancy already existed in
poverty and humiliation.
knows?
can only say
1952 when
was named bishop. In 1955, the year of the Init was already an advanced
ternational Eucharistic Congress,
pregnancy.
the
de Paul.
got
Dom
Helder,
What do you
H.C.:
respect
When we
it.
ideas
one day
in 1960, in
the Candelaria, for the Feast of Saint Vincent
up
and began speaking of charity
in the pulpit
understood as justice
O.F.:
my new
gave birth to
Church of
and not
some mean
as beneficence.
to arrive at that justice
by violence.
think of violence as an instrument of struggle?
But here
something that must be
there's
we mustn't
speak of violence
forget that the
stated.
number
mother of all violence, is

So the young people
who try to interpret oppression react to the number one violence with a number two violence, namely the current violence, and this provokes the number three violence, namely
fascist violence. It's a spiral. I, as a priest, cannot and must not
accept any of these three violences, but the number two vioprecisely because I know that one arlence I can understand
rives at it through provocation. I detest those who remain pasone violence, the violence
bom
of grievances.
It's
that's the
called injustice.
sive,
dare.
who keep silent, and

The young people in
violence are idealists
whom
love only those
Brazil
I
who
must add,
if
with weapons, the oppressors will crush you.
them on
their level
is
fight,
who
admire. Unfortunately their vio-
lence leads to nothing, and so
ing
who
react to violence with
pure madness.
you
start
To
think of fac-
playing
Helder Camara
O.F.: In other words,
revolt
is
Dom
301
me
Helder, you're telling
armed
that
impossible in Latin America.
H.C: Legitimate and impossible. Legitimate because provoked, impossible because
The
be crushed.
it'll
fare was the only solution for Latin
Fidel Castro's victory.
idea that guerrilla war-
America developed
But Fidel Castro,
didn't have the United States against him!
The United
was taken by surprise with Cuba, and
Cuba,
after
after
the beginning,
in
it
States
organized
antiguerrilla warfare in all the countries of Latin
America,
prevent other Cubas. So today, in Latin America,
all
men in power are

anyone who attempts a
tary
to
the mili-
helped by the Pentagon in crushing
Not only
revolution.
are there special
schools for war where soldiers are trained under the harshest
conditions, in the jungle,
among
the snakes, but where they're
That is, while their bodies

minds are persuaded that the world is divided in two: on one side capitalism with its values, on the
other communism with its antivalues. These special forces, in
short, are so prepared that anyone who tries to face them
also taught political propaganda.
learn to
their
kill,
inevitably ends by losing.

O.F.: Like
Che Guevara? Dom
Helder, what's your opinion of
Che
Guevara?
Cuba, the genius of guerrilla warfare. He

Cuba, since it was he and not Fidel Castro who
H.C: Guevara was,
showed
it
in
in
carried off that extraordinary victory.
cause
say extraordinary be-
haven't forgotten, you know, what
the times of Batista! Others have,
haven't.
Cuba was
But from
like in
a politi-
Guevara was much less of a genius, and his

my argument is right. Then he chose Bolivcountry with a very small privileged class and
cal standpoint,
death shows that
ia, namely a
where the masses
live
below the
human
level
with
the hope nor the awareness necessary for revolt.
And
mistake because he couldn't be helped by those for
was fighting
those
have a reason
antiguerrilla
peated,
and
was
whom
he
who have no reason to live don't even

He remained alone, and the experts in
devoured him. No, Cuba can't be re-
to die.
warfare
I
neither
it
don't believe that Latin America has "need of
many Vietnams,"
as
Che Guevara
said.
When
think of Vîet-

302
nam,
is
who
think of a heroic people
superpower, since
there to defend the free world. But
Red China
really
damn
gives a
are fighting against a
by no means beheve that the United States

don't even think that
about Vietnam and
when
delude yourselves that
that
war
ask,
"Do you
over, the Viet-
is
namese people will come out the winner?"

And Camilo Torres?
H.C.: The same. Camilo was a sincere priest, but at a certain point,
while remaining a priest and a Christian, he lost any illusion
that the Church knew or wanted to realize its beautiful texts.
And he thought the Communist party was the only one capable of doing something. So the communists took him and sent
him immediately into combat, where the danger was gravest.
They had a plan in mind: Camilo would be killed and Colombia would catch fire. Camilo was killed but Colombia didn't
catch fire. Neither the young people nor the workers stirred.
And we go back to my statement of before.
O.F.: Dom Helder, would you also apply that statement to the
young people who are carrying out guerrilla warfare in the cit-
O.F.:
ies
H.C.:
of Brazil?
Of
Oh, I respect enormously the young Brazilians of

you speak! I love them because they're daring, mature,
because they never act out of hatred and think only of freeing
course.
whom
their country.
At the cost of their
to prepare the masses,
their lives.
but
have
nothing?
to.
Is
it
They
they're impatient,
like to
don't have time
and they pay with
discourage those young people
worth while
to
sacrifice
their lives for
Or almost nothing?
Consider
the
wouldn't
lives.
money
first
of
all
commit to get
Weapons cost a disgustcities is a mad undertaking
the bank robberies they
necessary to buy weapons.
ing price, to bring
them
into the
that risk, that sacrifice, isn't
it
therefore disproportionate?
Now
consider the kidnapping of diplomats, done for the purpose of

freeing their
comrades
in prison.
released by the guerrillas in
Every time an ambassador
exchange
prison, the police send out a dragnet
up again. As well
as the torture
for their
and the empty
chambers.
come out, and on the other they go

The sense of making an exchange,
in
comrades
On
one
cells
is
in
fill
side they
^what's the sense of
it?
of adding cripples to crip-
Helder Camara
The
deaths to deaths?
pies,
303
sense of increasing the spiral of
violence, of facilitating the fascist dictatorship?
My
opposition, as you see,
but on tactical ones.
comes from an
isn't
were
United
States,
idealism,
it
realism that
France,
Italy,
any of these countries the young people
If in
pour out into the
to
exquisitely political realism.
applies to any other country:
Spain, Russia.
based on religious motives
come from any
doesn't
It
and attempt
streets
revolution,
they'd be annihilated in a flash. In the United States, for in-
Pentagon would end up completely
stance, the
in
power.
We
mustn't be impatient!
O.F.
Even
Jesus Christ was impatient,
who
have always been those
And
Helder.
In the history of the world those
authorities.
H.C:
Dom
And he
didn't
arguments when he defied the constituted
offer a lot of tactical
who have won
challenged the unchallengeable.
young
knew how I understand the young! I too was impatient as a young man
at the seminary I was such a disthat
wasn't
allowed
to become a Child of Mary.* I
senter
If
the
only you
talked during the hours devoted to silence,
though
new
was forbidden,
it
generations of today
argued with
me
fill
my
wrote poetry even
a hundred times more disobedient than

hundred times more courageous. In the United
Europe, everywhere.
the
with admiration because
they're
sians,
And
superiors.
know nothing about
the
was,
States,
in
young Rus-
but I'm sure they too are trying something. Yes,
know
young people of today it's all much easier because

they have more information, more communications, they
that for the
have the road that

it
my
so well, that road!
for revolt,
such
generation paved for them. But they use
There
is
them such
a thirst for justice,
They're exacting to-
ward
their parents,
They
turn their backs on religion because they've realized that
religion
their teachers,
came
to sec
The Children
themselves.
And they're sincere when they

Some time ago some young Marxists
me, and with
a certain
decided to accept me. Listen,
(Editor's note.)
their pastors,
has betrayed them.
find sincerity, sensitivity.
in
a sense of responsibility.
of
Mary was a pious
arrogance they said they'd
listen,
said, so let's
suppose
organization, something hke a devotional elub.
304
don't accept you. That led to a heated, in fact harsh, discussion, but
ended
it
people of today,
to live their
in
an embrace.
young
don't only love the
envy them, since they have the good fortune
youth together with the youth of the world. But
me
you can't stop
from being old and therefore from being
wise, not impatient.

O.F.:
Of
course not. So
Anyone who
fool.
ask you,
your wisdom found
tions has
H.C.:
me
let
Dom
Helder, what solu-
for eliminating injustice?
has the solution in his pocket
have no solutions.
is
presumptuous
have only opinions, suggestions,
which can be summed up in two words: peaceful violence.

That is, not the violence chosen by young people with
weapons in their hands, but the violence, if you like, already
preached by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. The violence of
Christ.
call
it
violence because
it's
not content with small
on a complete revolution of
present structures
a society remade from top to bottom. On a
socialist basis and without shedding blood. It's not enough to
struggle for the poor, to die for the poor
we must give the
poor an awareness of their rights, and of their poverty. The
masses must realize the urgency of freeing themselves and not
reforms,
but
revisions,
insists
be freed by a few
idealists
who
face torture like the Christians
faced the lions in the Colosseum.

lions doesn't
much good if
But how do we
do
the spectacle.
feet? you'll
Well,
answer
may
this
is
To
get yourself eaten by
the masses stay seated to watch
get them to stand up on

game of mirrors!
be a Utopian and naive, but
"consciencize" the masses, and, perhaps,

a dialogue with the oppressors. There's
pletely wicked;
even
in the
say
possible to
open
no man who's comit's
possible to
most infamous of
and what
it's
their
human
beings
we succeed in some way

men? What if we
were actually to succeed in inducing them to revise their politknow
ical philosophy? Having been an integralist, a fascist,
may even be that we'll
the mechanism of their minds
it
succeed in convincing them that that mechanism is wrong,
you
find valid elements
in talking with the
more
if
intelligent military
that torturing
and
killing don't kill ideas, that order isn't
tained by terror, that progress
is
main-
reached only by dignity, that
the underdeveloped countries don't defend themselves by put-
Helder Camara
305
ting themselves at the service of the capitahst empires, that the
capitaHst empires go
arm
arm with
in
the
communist empires.
We
O.F.:
H.C.:
must try.
Have you tried,
I
Dom
I'm trying
will try.
Helder?
now
by talking to you in this interview.
They'll have to understand too that the world

that the breath of revolt
on the whole
Latin America, but also
planet.
On
even blown on the Catholic Church!
Church has
is
going forward,
not only blowing on Brazil and
is
Good
Lord,
it's
the problem of jus-
already arrived at certain conclusions.
tice
the
And
those conclusions are on paper, and signed. For
that
many
priests are talking
about celibacy, but
still
true
it's
more
are
hunger and freedom. And then, you know, one
talking about
must consider the consequences of the discussion about celibacy: there's a relationship between the various revolts; you
can't demand a change in the outer structures if you don't
change the inner ones. The great human
have the courage
to
problems
the
aren't
America, of
Dom
United
in the
monopoly of
still
Latin
in
Canada, everywhere.
Dom Helder. At the top of the pyra-
States, in
O.F.: They're isolated groups,
mid we
living
priests
Helder. They're faced by priests in Europe,
have those
who
defend the old structures and the
established authorities.
H.C:
can't say you're wrong. There's an
enormous
difference be-
tween the conclusions signed on paper and the living
The Church
realities.
has always been too preoccupied by the problem
of maintaining order, avoiding chaos, and this has kept

realizing that
der,
its
without excusing the
and virtuous people
many
injustices.
found
it
truth
is
to
those
tige,
normal
P\)r
neck
who
but
if
in
three centuries
Negroes
for the
we want
we have
to
it's
it
often
from
won-
possible for serious
in
It
Church
The
mechanism of
Brazil
the
be kept in slavery!
to
Church belongs
commercial
hold wealth.
disorder.
have accepted and go on accepting so
rhe Church has money, so
its
selves,
to
that the Catholic
power,
up
more often
Church, how
order was
it
to the
inxests
enterprises,
thinks in that
its
money,
and attaches
way
to protect
sinks
itself to
its
pres-
to sustain the role
we've arrogated to our-
stop thinking in
terms of prestige.
should we wash our hands
like
Pontius Pilate;
Nor
we must cleanse
3o6
ourselves of the sin of omission and settle our debts.
reacquire the respect of the young people,
and maybe
Away
with that money, and enough of preaching religion in
Enough of
prudence,
obedience,
men
to say, I'm entitled to
being poor, the underde-
to
veloped nations to being underdeveloped.
way we prove the Marxists
opium of
O.F.:
My
are right
an alienated and alienating
religions are
ham!
with which the poor
priests are responsible for the fatalism
have always resigned themselves
You
by giving away sandwiches
and cookies, but by teaching them
this
benefi-
suffering,
beneficence, sandwiches, and cookies.
don't defend the dignity of
We
not their
their love.
terms of patience,
cence.
if
And
sympathy
And by going on
when they say that
namely the
force,
the people!
goodness,
Dom
Helder! But does Paul VI
know you
say
these things too?
H.C:
He knows, he
knows.
And he
he can't speak the way
doesn't disapprove.
He
do.
It's
just that
has certain people around
him, poor man!
Dom
O.F.: Listen,
the
Helder, but do you really think that nowadays
Church can have
a role in the search for
and application
of justice?
H.C: Oh, no.

caused so
role.
We
Let's get the idea out of
much
trouble the
have the duty
ostentation.
Without
to
at
round
forgetting
table
having
such a
render that service, yes, but without

that
belongs to us Christians. Last year

Berlin
after
itself
our heads that
Church can allow
the
most serious
participated for a
of Christians,
Buddhists,
guilt
week
in
Hindus,
Marxists. There we discussed the great problems of the world,

examined what we'd done, and concluded that religions have
a
great debt toward
humanity, but that the Christians, or
rather the Catholics, have the biggest debt.
How
do you ex-
plain that that handful of countries that have in their hands
eighty percent of the world's resources are Christian countries
and often Catholic? So

the effort
of
all
Church alone
conclude:
if
religions put together.
hope
Not
exists,
in
or in Christian religions alone. By
not a single religion that has
many
it
lies in
the Catholic
possibilities.
now
there's
Peace can

Helder Camara
whom
only be reached thanks to those

of good
O.F.:
H.C.:
307
Dom
They're a minority without any power,

the minorities that count.
It's
men
Pope John called
will.
It's
Helder.
the minorities that have
always changed the world, by rebelling, by fighting, and then
Some
by awakening the masses.
some bishop
there,
but
to flatter you,
ple
who
ists
must
tell
you
Who,
like journalists.
some
priest here,
guerrilla
journalist there. I'm not trying
one of the few peo-
that I'm
not the journalists, report in-
if
and inform millions and millions of people? Don't cut
justices
this
some
here,
remark out of the interview:
modern world
in the
journal-
an important phenomenon.
are
There was
about our
Now
folklore.
when you came
a time
our
butterflies,
instead
our poverty, of our
parrots,
to Brazil only to talk
our carnival,
you come here and
tortures.
Not
all
who
don't care
our
in short
raise the
problems of
of you, of course
we
there
hunNot always with success, of course

your thirst for truth stops where the interests of the enterprise
you serve begin. But God is good, and sometimes he sees to it
are also the thoughtless ones
if
die of
ger or electric shocks.
that
your bosses aren't very
ing,
rebounds with the speed of

even
if it's silent.
and once
its
truth:
it's
read.
I'm only waiting for
one mustn't say
The
banks.
has eyes and ears, even
It
mouth. And the day always comes when
what
it's
a rocket directed at the
spreads like a river overflowing

stupid,
Thus, with God's
intelligent.
the news always gets through,
to
it
it
bless-
printed
it
moon, then
public
if it
isn't
has no
thinks back
on
read this ultimate
that the rich are rich because they've
worked harder or are more
One
intelligent.
mustn't say that
When hope
no longer does any
the poor are poor because they're stupid and lazy.

is
lacking and one inherits only poverty,
good
O.F.:
Dom
H.C.:
You
to
work or be
Helder,
if
intelligent.
you weren't
needn't bother to ask
thing but a
priest.
it
a priest
Just think,
can't even imagine being any-
consider the lack of imagina-
tion a crime,
and
not a
For me, being
a priest isn't just a choice,
what water
for a fish, the sky for a bird.
priest.
way of
life.
It's
yet
haven't the imagination to see myself as
is
it's
I
re-

3o8
ally believe in Christ;
Christ to
he's a personal friend.
Being a
me
me, nor given

family in the
been
me
is
not an abstract idea
Celibacy, chastity, the absence of a
regrets.
way you laymen understand
burden
me.
to
never disappointed
priest has
has never
all this
it,
missed certain
If I've
had and
joys, I've
much more sublime. If you only knew what I

feel when
say Mass, how
become one with
The Mass for
me is truly Calvary and the Resurrection; it's a mad joy!
Look, there are those who are born to sing, those who are
born to write, those who are born to play soccer, and those
who are born to be priests. was bom to be a priest
started
saying so at the age of eight and certainly not because my
parents had put the idea in my head. My father was a Mason
have others so
I
it!
my mother went to church once a year.

one day my father got frightened and
and
that
even remember
said,
"My
what
that
who must
I
O.F.:
said, "I
Not
means?
priest
someone who
is
because he belongs
himself,
God and
to
doesn't belong to
men, someone
to
dispense only love and faith and charity.
know. That's why
want
son,
know
you're always saying you want to be a priest. But do you
..." And
be a priest."
to
monk, however. Your telephone rings too often, and

machine guns wouldn't be suitable for a
that wall hit by the
monastery.
H.C: Oh, you're wrong!
carry a monastery inside myself.
me, and even
there's little of the mystic in
in
my
Maybe
direct en-
counters with Christ I'm as impertinent as Christ would want.
But there always comes
manner of
moment when
isolate
myself
in the
monk. At two in the morning I always wake up,

get up, get dressed, and gather up the pieces I've scattered during the day: an arm here, a leg there, the head who knows
where.
sew myself back together again;
thinking or writing or praying, or
man. I
you see;
the day I'm a frugal
cious crucifixes, as
eat
I
wonder why
whether
it's
man
ing the tomato

ize
it,
make
it
detest rings
life.
Life
one should
or a tomato. Yes,
it
alone,
start
During
and pre-
rejoice in gifts that are right at
to sustain life
make
all
get ready for Mass.
little,
hand: the sun, the water, people,

often
become
Dom
is
beautiful,
kill
know
another
that while
and
life
chew-
Helder and thus ideal-
immortal. But the fact remains that I'm destroy-
Helder Camara
tomato
the
ing
why?
fathoming and so
set
more important than
And when
O.F.:
doesn't
it
in
man
is
Doni Helder,
you're not thinking of the tomato,
monk and a
men who are
of a
less
them
at least hitting
fists?
were
that
If
a tomato.
than a tomato and dream of
less
succeed
don't
never mind,
ever happen to you to be a Httle
with your
H.C.:
aside, saying
it
of a priest? In short, to get angry with
little less
worth
mystery
It's
309
happen,
to
And
shoulder.
be a priest with a
I'd
much
very
my
on
rifle
on
arms against an
respect the priests with rifles
their shoulders; I've never said that to use
immoral or anti-Christian. But it's not my choice,

it's not my way of applying the Gospels. So
it's not
when I get angry, and I notice it by the fact that words no
stop and say, "Calm down,
longer come out of my mouth,
oppressor
is
my
road,
Dom
Helder!" Yes,
what
just said
with what
on the other
astery,
understand, you aren't able to combine
said before:
politics.
on one
But what you
me
game, he didn't
religion. Christ didn't play the oppressors'
is
mon-
side the
call politics for
who told him if you defend the young people

who kidnapped the ambassador, if you defend the young people
who rob banks to buy weapons, you're committing a crime
against the fatherland and the state. The Church wants me to
libbusy myself with the liberation of the soul, but how can
give in to those
erate a soul
I
want
to
if
send
don't liberate the body that contains that soul?
men
O.F.:
Thank you,
Dom
Dom
H.C: Bah!
much
vinced they can't

does want
grace
it'll
The
Recife,
seems
kill
will
myself,
courage
me
if
me
hair, the little that's left
be a
little
So
that about says

to
bump me
to
God
to
happen
right,
is
August 1970
it.
is
God.
and
it
But I'm conIf
instead
God
accept that as his
white, and
don't have
their threats don't frighten
accept
all,
help. I've lost almost
hard for them, that way, to
only judge
myself,
off.
doesn't want
it's
it
you?
don't defend
because he thinks
years to live.
puppies
less
testicles.
who knows, my death could even
my
more
it,
It
now what
don't hide
wouldn't take
all
Helder.
Helder. But
Much
heaven, not puppies.
to
with empty bellies and crushed
me.
many
In short,
make me shut
up.
13
Archbishop Makarios
At a certain point
ten's advice."
"An
woman
intelligent
"No, but you're

keep
to
me
should never
from realizing
combat.
and ready
same
rapidity with
him
know
gave
it,"
said.
And
to give
it
back.
The blow
which he had
flared up,
story.
"As
was
didn't
me up
all
you
it-
his
com-
telling you, I'm lucky.
when
pass to a bet-
read such nice obituaries about myself.
for dead,
The
come. With the
he regained
already what the newspapers will write

Last July
doing
then his gaze hard-
arched, like the back of a cat preparing
posure and went on with his
ter life.
know how innot a woman."
others
too arched myself, waiting for the blow of his
claws,
let
intelligent, so intelligent that you're
ened, something in
self for
"You remind me of Jane Aus-
Makarios smiled again. "But I'm
telligent she is."
can
said to Makarios,
Makarios smiled. "What advice of Jane Austen's?"
remember? The cables
to
my
They
ambassadors
came from Lord Caradon, the last British

met Lord Caradon in
governor of Cyprus and a great enemy.
London. We got to talking about the old days when we used to
quarrel over the British bases on Cyprus. I told him those bases had
were nice
too.
nicest
been good
he
forgets
shout
at
for just
me
and help
one
thing: to give
me
refuge after the coup dtat
leave the island." Every time his
Jane Austen's advice, you're a
him, "Pay attention!"
And
310
it
mind wanders and
little sorry.
You want
to
goes without saying that in
Archbishop Makarios
mind
interview his
this
one of the reasons

hadn't liked
that
in
him
at the
peared,
dressed
all
up
like
like
The
some
vestments.
at least his
because
that he represents the
He
the Vatican; he
is
is
on the
is
erect
had remained seated
me
at
And
once.
his
was
I?
solemn advance,
me
sits
How
did
as
he
To
the
and,
that blessing.
it.
Let us not forget
temporal power with
solid fusion of the
pope who
mine
his eyes pierced
Who
irritating to say the least.
most
like a
floor,
The only
could have done happily without
layman, he
the spiritual.
knelt
chair was situated between the elevator
and he noticed
Needless to say,
Some
lobby became a chapel.
their navels,
passed in front of me, he imparted to
was
was staying there too.

and as soon as he apan icon, shining with gold and jewels,
However, he continued
mind of
It
needles of indignation, surprise, sorrow.
dare?
show him
tried to
his blessing.
to the lobby,
visible besides,
a high armchair.
exit,
had even
Bretagne, and
his pastoral scepter, the
head was mine, very
and the
had received
time of the wedding of Juan Carlos and Sophia.
bowed till their noses touched

some tried to kiss his hand or
on
Once
before.
He was staying at the Grande

One evening he came down
and gripping
is
Makarios.
didn't, with the result that
Athens,
Almost always. Which
often wandered.
like
311
in the
Quirinale instead of
Church on
the head of the Greek Orthodox
Cyprus and the president of Cyprus. So, you never know whether
to address
call
him
him
as a religious leader or a political
one, whether to
Beatitude or President, Archbishop or Mr. Makarios.
Nor
does the fact that he was democratically elected help you to forget a
bitter
reality:
he
gets those votes thanks to
his
heaven. For the peasants of Cyprus, voting for

rament. While handing
communists make the
in
their ballots with his
sign of the cross.
of the few heads of state before
your
feet
if
whom
And
it's
relationship with
him
yet,
almost
is
a sac-
name, even the

he's one
yet
.
worth the trouble
to get to
not to kneel down. Because he's one of the few with
Along with brains, courage. Along with courage, a sense of

humor, independence of judgment, dignity. A dignity that approaches regality, and God knows where it comes from. The son of
brains.
an
illiterate
Many
shepherd, he guarded sheep until the age of twelve.
people cannot stand him.
of devoting or having devoted too
They accuse him,
much
for instance,
attention to
women,
of
312
being in no sense an ascetic.
governing through
lies,
believe
believe completely unless by
West but
is
culture that
He
West.
we
sophisticated
He
use in the West.
belongs to something that
is
not yet the East, something that sinks

is
this
don't
you mean Byzantinism, by
lies
not be judged by the yardstick

to the
him of
also accuse
in-
by opportunism, imagination. His character can-
trigue, elasticity,
belong
They
it.
and opportunism. And
intrigue,
and archaic
at
does not
no longer the
its
roots into a
same time, and
the
which has mastered the art of survival. He has the gift of survival,
gained and regained through fast stepping, contortions, cleverness,
lucidity, cynicism. Four times they tried to kill him. Four times he
escaped. Twice they sent him into exile. Twice he came back. And
after the coup of July
only once did he seem to have lost for good
who
1974. Instead, those
won
now
as a result of that
finds itself
under
archbishop-president,
him
I
lost
were those
close
my
to
in
the
and
New
his flight.
interviewed
him
and
and taking
he's a socialist.
of
six
hours.
The
interview as
written skips over such well-known incidents as the attempts

life
have
fell
eyes on the subject of the
can't help accepting Makarios
when he tells me
him twice, for a total
seriously even
interviewed
thought
coup, the Greek military junta
arrest. If
I
who were
in his suite in
on
his
the Plaza Hotel
York, where he had gone to keep an eye on Kissinger and
UN. No
longer dressed up in gold and jewels, he wore a plain
blue cassock and seemed older than his sixty-one years. His attitude
was mild, deliberately humble.

suave.
He
His voice was
said "he's a criminal" in the
soft,
deliberately
same tone with which he
''he's a good man." I wasn't bored for a minute,

and indeed enjoyed myself. He knows how to be so brilliant. And
at several moments I admired him. He cares so much about freedom. We parted friends. In the doorway, he whispered, "That ad-
might have said
vice of Jane Austen's
woman." And
...
answered,
it
goes for you too.
"What
What
a pity you're a
a pity you're a priest."
ORIANA FALLACI: An abrupt question, Beatitude: are you going back

to Cyprus or not?
ARCHBISHOP MAKARIOS: Of coursc I'm going back. Certainly! I'll go
back in November. At the latest, the end of December. The
date depends entirely on me. I haven't gone back as yet be-
Archbishop Makarios
cause
was waiting
Greek government
for the
coup
replace the officers responsible for the

also because
from near
by.
doubt about
nobody
wanted
return
against
is
follow the
to
my
after all
UN
why
don't understand
my
313
And
debate on Cyprus
there should be any
Nothing and
didn't resign.
going back, except those
of being tried and punished, something

since
withdraw and
to
against me.
who
are afraid
don't intend to do
would hurt the unity of the country. Mind you,
it
mean
doesn't
On
the facts.
pened. But
intend to
let history
the contrary,
want
have
that
a distorted version of
want the world
to
know what hap-
any punishment, any revenge.
I'll
grant a general amnesty, and anyone who's anxious about
my
calm
return can
to avoid
his fears. Besides
it's
only a question of a few
The people support me today even more than

coup. And they're eager to have me back. They're
individuals.
before the
ninety-nine percent for me.

O.F.:
Ninety-nine percent of the population includes the Turkish
And
Cypriots.
don't think they're so eager to have you back.
Beatitude.
M.:
Of course.
president,
arrive.
to
me
nity.
don't think either that the majority of the Turks are
of me.
favor
in
is
But
Mr.
sure
the Turkish
Dektas,
worry me, and anyway
this doesn't
to negotiate
That
I'm
vice-
anything but pleased with the idea of seeing
will
negotiator and
it
won't be up
commu-
with Mr. Dektas and the Turkish
still
me
be done by Clerides, who's an excellent
knows Dektas
better than
do.
Oh,
naturally
it's
understood that Clerides won't make any decisions without
my
consent.
Cyprus,
It's
mean
understood that
to
speak of going back to

I'll
the
question of whether
me
And
go back as president,
concerns
when
go back as president. I'm the president,
alone.
never agree to go otherwise.
I'll
remain president
I'll
I'll
make
for a
that decision
long time or not
when
Cyprus. I'm saying
from the presidency
after a certain period of time.
don't exclude the
I'm back in
of retiring
po.ssibilit\
I'll
have
to
decide on the basis of the situation. Should a bad agreement

be reached, for instance,
But
O.F.
M.:
this,
What do you mean
Turkey
is
wouldn't care
to stay as president.
repeat, we'll see later on.
going
by a bad agreement?
to insist
on
a geographical federation,
and
will
314
never accept a federation on a geographical
basis.
would
It
lead to a partition of the island and to a double enosis: half of
Cyprus consigned
mean
to
Greece and half
Turkey.
to
the end of Cyprus as an independent
than ready to discuss a federation,

not a geographical one.
tive basis
but on an administraone thing to have areas
yes,
It's
governed by Turks and areas governed by Greeks;

another
to divide ourselves
two
into
would
It
I'm more
state.
parts.
It's
it's
quite
one thing
to
group, for example, two or three Turkish villages and entrust
them to a Turkish administration; it's quite another to shift

more than two hundred thousand people from one end of the
The Turkish
island to the other.
How
Cyprus.
can you say
to
Cypriots are scattered
all
over
them, "Pack up your things,
your land, and move elsewhere because
leave your house,
we're going to have a federation"?!
It's
inhuman,
to say the
mean
the tragedy
me
that so far
least.
O.F.:
Is
this really
what worries you, Beatitude?

It doesn't seem
of the Turkish Cypriots?
much
been the object of
they've
treated like second-class citizens

M.: That's not true!
It's
not true!
to
They've been
concern.
and
Though
they're a minority, they've
and they've behaved as though they

represented the majority. We haven't been the ones to mistreat
had
a lot of privileges,
them,
was
it
their
Turkish leaders, by forcing them
separate villages, blackmailing them, keeping
to live in
them from co-
operating with us even economically, and from progressing.
They
didn't even let
them do business with
us, or
help us to
develop tourism. They weren't our victims, they were their
Nobody can deny
victims.
one, exists in Cyprus.
abuse
me
come
to
liked.
and
see
The
insult
me
trouble
at
is
me
that a true
their
In
as
democracy, and
much
as they liked.
they were obliged to
mixed
problem living together, in the past and
Greco-Turkish war as well. What you say
:
And
is
it
true that
good
They could
the archbishop's palace whenever they
out their leaders knowing
O.F.
newspapers the Turks could
it.
In
come
secretly, with-
villages
at
we had no
the time of the
isn't true.
you deprived them of many constitutional
privileges. Beatitude?
M.:
deprived them of nothing.
simply complained about those
Archbishop Makarios
hamper the functioning
privileges because they only served to
of the
The
state.
315
Constitution provides that they be repre-
And
sented in the government at the ratio of thirty percent.
very often the Turkish Cypriots didn't have people capable of
There was,
filling that thirty percent.
could have been

given to an
filled
Turk
illiterate
they voted against taxes.

can't survive
anyway. So
if
I
for
example,
by an intelligent Greek and
a post that
had
it
tried to explain to
them
be
to
Once
because he was a Turk.
just
that a state
the citizens don't pay taxes, and they refused
them
forced
abuse? Another time,
pay
to
when
Was
the same.
all
was about
to
go
to
that
an
Belgrade for
the conference of nonaligned countries, Mr, Dektas tried to
me
stop
from going by exercising
"Exercise
it
all
you
like.
his veto power.
I'm going just the same."
him,
told
Was
that an
abuse?
O.F.
Beatitude, whether you're right or wrong, the reality today
The Turks occupy
different.
and
M.:
And
I
of the
is
island
don't accept
percent
forty
Because
it.
can't legalize with
of force. So-called
my
can't recognize a fait accompli,
signature a situation created by the use
realists
advise
me
geographi-
to negotiate a
cal federation with the Turks; they say
should be
less rigid.
on to forty percent of the island, they repeat, the Turks might be content with thirty percent. So be
flexible.
don't want to be flexible.
O.F.: Flexible is a word dear to Henry Kissinger. Is he the one who
Instead of holding
says that?
M.: Kissinger has never clearly told
graphical
federation.
me
he was
He's never told
me
in favor of a geo-
clearly
what
he's
doing. He's always talked about a "solution acceptable to both

sides"
and always repeated "we don't want
we're doing to persuade Turkey." So

ally
preparing the agreement that
we're
to,
still
in
disagreement on
the United States could play a
role in this matter.
Turkey?
Turkey
it
to say
openly what
can't state the he's actu-
reject,
things.
more
but
Many.
decisive
can
If
it
tell
you
wanted
and precise
supply economic aid and arms to
it the only one that could persuade or even force

more reasonable?
do you think that what happened in Cyprus would
Isn't
to be
O.F.: Beatitude,
Doesn't
many
3l6
M.:
have been possible without the tacit authorization of Kissinger

and the Americans?
Ah! I think the United States and other countries knew in ad-
vance that the Turks were preparing the invasion of Cyprus.
And
perhaps they were fooled by the Turks, perhaps they
when Turkey
into the trap
tion
said
it
would be
police action to restore constitutional order in two

later what Turkey's real
same they could have prevented what
Perhaps they understood only
days.
plans were. But
the
all
happened. They could have stopped the continuous

Turkish troops.
And
fell
a limited opera-
had
expressed to
arrival
a long discussion with Kissinger
him
all
no uncertain terms how
my
disappointment;
dissatisfied
of
about
it.
him
in
told
was with the attitude
held by his country.
And he?
He answered
O.F.:
M.:
that he didn't agree with
me, that he had
tried to
persuade Turkey, that he had acted behind the scenes. But

again he didn't want to explain clearly what he had done.
many
O.F.: Beatitude,
people
feel that Kissinger's responsibility
that of the United States go well
and
beyond the Turkish invasion
of Cyprus. Let's not forget that the invasion took place following the
coup
and that
M.:
Of
course!
carried out against
you by the junta
The
first
Greek military
And
Athens
chapter of this tragedy was written by the
junta.
Cyprus had been
the intervention of Greece. Turkey

evil.
in
I'm sorry to say
so.
first
came
of
all
later,
destroyed by
like a
second
I'm sorry because the present
Greek government is behaving well toward me, in a frank and

honest manner. I've not met Karamanlis or Averoff, but I've
known Mavros. And I like Mavros. He's a good man. He's sincere, open, and that's more than enough for me. But the fact
remains that Greece would not have regained its freedom if
Cyprus hadn't lost its own. The fact remains that Turkey
would never have dared intervene if the previous government,
the junta, hadn't offered it the pretext. The Turks had been
threatening to invade us for such a long time, and yet they'd
never done
it.
They'd never found an excuse.
you think the United States and the CIA had

do with that coup dtat? There are rumors that
O.F.: Yes, but don't
something
to
Archbishop Makarios
the
CIA
317
unhappy about the attempts on your
wasn't exactly
hfe.
M.:
As regards those attempts,

in fact,
it
during a
was people
trip
don't beheve
took to Africa,
in
last
one,
Nairobi,
who informed me my life was in

said, "We know that when you
me and
danger.
They came
go back
they'll try to kill you.
to
Before the
it.
American embassy
at the
Be careful."
few days
later, in
Cyprus, they confirmed the information to me, adding that

the attempt
would
two weeks. As indeed
take place within
coup dtat, on the other hand ... I

don't know. Kissinger told me, "It wasn't in our interests to
have that coup detat against you." I suppose I ought to believe
happened. As
for the
There
him, but should
I?
just the opposite
of what Kissinger told me, and
nothing
I've
to
go on.
I've tried to find
even asked
out more.
No
use.
have
any proof that
to offer
added, "Naturally
we were following
have
to
keep
my
idea
correct. Kissinger
it's
the situation and
loannides nor the
to us that neither
still
information from Athens;
for
without being able
known
show
are plenty of indications that
rest
it
was
of the junta
liked you. But we had no concrete information as to 'the day'

when the coup dtat against you would take place."
O.F.: Maybe it was helped along by the letter you wrote to Gizikis
in July.
M.: Let's say that that letter speeded things up. If
hadn't written
it,
coup would have happened all the same, a month or two

later. As Kissinger admits, it had been more than decided on;
all that remained was to set the date. I was too big an obstacle
to enosis, and they were too anxious to have enosis. Every time
we were on the point of reaching an agreement between Greek
Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, officials in Athens intervened
the
by shouting about enosis.
ficials
who came to
Anyway it will
can send troops

will intervene
week
enosis. "
don't care about your local
remember one of these ofme one day and said, "You must declare
agreements, our goal
enosis.
"We
to
is
take three or four days before the Turks
Cyprus. In the meantime the United States
and keep them from invading the
enosis will be a fait accompli."
lieved that annexation to
way they expected me
Greece was
to take orders
Maybe
island.
In a
they really be-
a viable alternative.
Any-
from Athens, they wanted
31
me
my
O.F.:
M.:
obey
to
puppet, and that's absolutely impossible with
like a
temperament. I obey only myself.

So you too were expecting the coup.
No.
never thought they'd be so stupid as to order a coup
against me.
In
tion.
seemed impossible
it
that they
mean Turkish
interven-
thought they might do such a thing by
a deal with
me
consequences.
its
At the most
making
to
fact,
wouldn't consider
Turkey, that
authorizing Turkey to in-
is,
tervene so that Greece could then respond, to be followed by
and double
partition
when
the coup,
realize that loannides
And
telligence.
been
in
yet
Cyprus
day he came
me
"explain to
He had bowed
fully, then:
as
to see
I went on thinking so even after

London. It took some time for me to
enosis.
got to
had simply acted out of
knew him.
In
an officer of the National Guard, and one
me, accompanied by Sampson, in order to

would settle everything."
me, he had kissed my hand most respect-
secretly a plan that

to
"Beatitude, here's the plan.
To
attack the Turkish
To
Cypriots suddenly, everywhere on the island.
them one and
all.
Stop."
was flabbergasted.
couldn't agree with him, that
Do you
had
to
you
he came
prefer, less stupid.
Cyprus, shortly
to
presidency, and
him any
no one can
times in Athens,
me much
He
kissed
my hand
you, he's a criminal.
At
when
must say
least he's
met him
after his
first
intelligent,
time
when
coup, as minister for the

I
saw him again
went there
that
more
for the
say that at that time
great consideration. But
Cyprus, and
him
choose between Papadopoulos and loan-
nides, I'd choose Papadopoulos.

or, if
eliminate
told
Papadopoulos better?
find
M.: I'd say yes. If
people.
tell
couldn't even conceive the
many innocent
idea of killing so
again and went away in a huff.

O.F.:
lack of in-
1963 and 1964 he had
to discuss the
was paying
a
couple of
problem of
on those occasions he seemed
smarter. In any case, supplied with
common
to
sense.
Well, Papadopoulos was suffering from megalomania, and besides
don't
know what he
really
thought about Cyprus.
the other hand, he was capable of controlling
many
On
situations
simultaneously, and he was head and shoulders above his collaborators.
don't even think he hated me, in the beginning.
Archbishop Makarios
He
started hating
only
O.F.:
me
in the last
later,
You
we
And though
moments when
I
say that
me
Because you make

you're a priest. So
above
all a priest.
and
at all.
priest
and consequently
don't
much
my
the
bishops,
laymen
who
priest at
Better
a politician.
of
priest, first
all a priest,
has been asked to be head of
But one would say you
to
In the world
it.
consists precisely in
in,
live
not allowing the
from becoming a
so
in
Cyprus,
it's
fairly
political one.
common. And
where the archbishop,
like
in
Cyprus, the archbishop
and administrator of the Church,
tional figure.
The
Church should
ethnarch.
And
then,
in
isn't
only a
he's also a na-
my
interest itself in all aspects of life
opinion, the
the Chris-
tian religion doesn't confine itself to taking care of the
ing.
see
all
the
elected directly by the people, with universal suf-
representative
progress of
the
spiri-
be confused with the temporal power, and in
a religious leader
is
who
what extent
like that.
In other words,
frage.
and then
I'm a
world, on the other hand,
more
let's
priest.
a politician.
No, and I'm dismayed by
keeping
All right,
you smiling?
can't understand to
priest first
state
power
are
conclude that maybe you're not a
wrong. I'm a
struggle of
human
part of
think of certain Renaissance popes
I'm not a politician
still,
M.: In
Why
but a big politician dressed as a
M.: You're
is
when ...
well,
don't like certain people.
led their armies in war,
tual
call hatred
anyone from feeling it once in a while.

don't like to admit it, since I must preach love,
can't stop
there are
O.F.:
And maybe
years.
you, Beatitude, are you capable of hating?
nature.
all,
two
in the last year.
And
M.: Well, let's say that the feeling
O.F.:
319
men, it's also concerned with their

no conflict between my position as
position as president.
moral
social well-bepriest
see nothing scandalous about
and
my
my
hold-
ing both the temporal and spiritual power. Besides I don't lean
on a party; I'm not the leader of a political party who goes
around asking people to elect him. simply serve the people in
I
and almost unanimously offered me. As I explained many years ago to another
layman, Prime Minister George Papandreou, I'm strong bethe
two capacities that they
insistently
320
cause
Fm
weak. Because
have neither a party nor an army
nor a pohce force behind me.
And because
the rules of pohtics. Because
and not games,
are Christian principles
don't even
know
follow certain principles that
ma-
political
tricks,
neuvers.
O.F.:
Oh, come
off
Beatitude! You,
it,
who
are a past master in the
most Byzantine game of compromise. You, who are considered the most brilliant specialist in intrigue and calculation.
M.: No! I don't use those methods, I don't! I yield to compromises,
of course, but never to anything that's not clear and honest.
I'm not a
success,
my
But I'm an honest man, and
saint.
be dishonest.
politics has to
it's
don't believe
don't think that in order to have
Do you know why
necessary to indulge in deceit.
me? Do you know why they
people love
mistakes
forgive all the
make? Because they understand that those mistakes
You must
are caused by bad judgment, not by bad intentions.
me
not confuse
were
to ask
with the popes of the past, and in
me,
have
a very negative
ly try to bring Christian teachings into the

that's
been entrusted
to
me and which
fact,
opinion of them.
maze
if
I
you
real-
of the office
accepted.
give
I'll
you
an example. In Cyprus we have capital punishment, and
head of
I'm the one
state,
who
death sentences. But executions in Cyprus are very

cause every time a
as
has to put his signature on
condemned man
appeals to me,
rare,
I
let
be-
him
Cyprus knows the death penalty is nominal,

that I always suspend executions. Those popes went to war,
but I don't accept war, I consider it a madness that's destined
off.
to
Everyone
in
end someday,
to
be remembered with
disbelief.
don't ac-
cept bloodshed.
O.F.:
Excuse me, Beatitude, but you were the one who actually
beginning of the struggle for the independence of
said, at the
"Much
Cyprus,
M.:
blood will have
can't possibly have said

to
freedom
Maybe
kill."
is
said,
was
it
with
irrigated
to flow."
that way.
Maybe
blood,"
said,
something
"The road
like
that.
"We'll have to die," but not, "We'll have to
in favor of sabotage, yes, but
on condition
that
it
didn't cost the blood of innocent people. All that killing took
place
when
Oh, I'm not
was
and couldn't do anything

person you think!
in exile
the terrible
to stop
it.
Archbishop Makarios
But
O.F.: We'll see.
you. First of
M.:
all,
now let's forget about Cyprus and

why did you become a priest?
always wanted to be a
when
barely thirteen
is
hard for
me
priest.
Ever since
was
about
talk
a child.
was
entered the monastery. But the reason
to explain.
Maybe
the monasteries around
visits to
321
been impressed by
I'd
my
village.
liked the
my
monas-
was so different from the kind we

and
sometimes wonder if for me the
monastary wasn't a way of escaping the sheep, the poverty. My
father was a shepherd. And he always wanted me to help him
much.
teries so
led
Life there
the village,
in
look after the sheep, and
my
from
elder son!
have to turn to
didn't like looking after the sheep.
complain and
In fact, he used to
my
If
and say
But
everyone
to stop
O.F.
M.:
him
told
I'll
so often that in
I
but he couldn't under-
in the family,
I
priest say
wanted
wasn't scared,
it
monastery and help the

I
said
life, when
was already archbishop, liked
"Do you remember when you used to grumble
you couldn't expect anything from me?" He was very
why on Sunday morning
when
anything
him:
religious, like
stand
He
younger son!"
the last years of his

to tease
say, "I can't expect
need help when I'm an old man,
the sheep to run to the
left
Mass.
was twelve years old
to take that path,
and he got angry.
was so sure that nothing would be able
me.
And your mother?

don't
remember my mother
very small;
the
She died when
very well.
was
don't even have a picture of her. In those days,
poor didn't get their pictures taken,
mountains of Cyprus. About
my
mother,
especially
the
in
only remember the
There was only one doctor in the whole district, and my father set out on foot to look for him. He had no
idea in what village he might find him, and went wandering
around for hours, and finally he came back dragging the doctor like a sheep. The doctor used the same pill for all illnesses.
Aspirin,
guess. He gave my mother the pill, and she died
day she got
ill.
soon
slept
I
after.
with
remember
my
remember
the night
"If you'll stop crying,
grandmother taking
the funeral.
because with him
father,
when he
I'll
me
remember
I
could cry
the nights
too started crying, and
stop too."
And
then
And
better.
said,
remember my
away, and the relatives saying
to
my
322
father, ''You're
young, you should get married again. Also for
my
the children." Besides myself, there was
my
little
brother,
and
who had just been born. And one day they

brought me home to meet my new mother Father had got
married again. My new mother was a woman in the middle of
the room, and she kept whispering, ''Come in, come in!"
didn't want to go in because
didn't know her. But then
litde sister
went in and soon

and still nice, and
and
ficult,
loved her. She was nice. She's
still
Very much. Oh,
love her.
you where
also so easy, to tell
still
come
so dif-
it's
from.
alive,
My
fa-
my mother, nor my
think my father resigned
ther couldn't read or write. Neither could
grandmother, nor
himself
there
would
my
stepmother.
to the idea of letting
learn to read
me
and
go into the monastery because
write.
When
Were you
O.F.:
disobedient then too?
he took
me
there,
..."
he kept urging me: "Be obedient, study
You
just told
me
that
you
only obey youself

M.:
was shy.
was so shy that
in
school
courage to get up and show that

the teacher called
When
the beard.
monastery ordered
able to obey.
was twenty years
me
my
to let
obliged to grow a beard.
didn't even have the
and my
blushed
But not even then was
lyzed.
isn't
on me,
studied the lesson.
I'd
old,
Take the
story of
the abbot of the
beard grow.
refused,
When
tongue got para-
And
novice
and he got angry. "Ei-
you obey or out you go." "All right, I'll go. Then I
packed my bag I knew exactly what would happen. "You
mustn't go! Stay." "All right, I'll stay." "But grow a beard."
ther
"
"No, no beard." "Look out or I'll beat you." "Beat me." He

started beating me, and while he was beating me, he yelled,
"Will you let it grow?" "No." "Now will you let it grow?"
"No." Finally he sat down, exhausted. "Please. Let it grow a
little.
bit
Just a
needed
little,
to
O.F.
M.:
And
little
bit?"
ask
little
whether you have one or not."
"Yes." "Like now?" "Yes." "Not even

millimeter more." "All
compromise was reached without my giving
in
obedience.
Revealing,
It's
won't lose face." "No." "Just the
millimeter more?" "Not even a
right."
to
make people
smiled. "This
a
so
my
I'd say.
strategy.
It
always has been.
mean,
I've
always enjoyed
Archbishop Makarios
the
game
of pushing myself to the edge of the abyss and then
stopping so as not to
stop at the last
You
fall.
moment
The
the brakes.
knew
can go that
It's
far
not that
there;
is
and no
fall,
go along very quietly, knowing
was the same with the abbot.
It
fur-
commit
to
put on
I'll
hadn't the slight-
I liked it too much. But

making him believe the contrary and taking his
he'd give in and accept a compromise that for me was
of leaving the monastery;
est intention
I
mean?
realize the abyss
others, naturally, think I'm about to
Instead
suicide.
what
see
because
calculate to the millimeter that

ther.
323
that by
beating,
a victory.
O.F.:
And
work,
M.:
when your
has there been any case
when
calculations didn't
destiny decided for you?
don't believe in destiny. Everyone makes his

the
most there
exist
must know how
to take
foreseen that
become bishop
archbishop
ing. After
I'd
own
unforeseen circumstances,
advantage
at thirty-seven.
of.
at the
But
I,
for instance, hadn't
age of thirty-five and
that's a story
to take
my
degree
caught by the war, the

tion, a
worth
tell-
seven years in the monastery, three of which were
spent studying at the high school in Nicosia,
Athens
destiny. At
which one
tough
Italian
as well as
tion,
however,
went
to
Boston.
in
was sent
law and theology. There
to
was
and then the German occupa-
adventurous period. After the libera-
got a scholarship in the United States and
America
liked
among
they'd given me,
other things, a small Greek Orthodox parish.
decided
to stay
there for five years instead of the three that had been arranged
my teaching degree in theology. And here the plan

Two years had barely gone by, in fact, when received
a cable from Cyprus informing me that a certain district
wanted to elect me its bishop.
was alarmed.
didn't want to
and take
failed.
leave America,
want
didn't
to
go back
to
Gyprus. Gyprus
meant nothing to me except a vague geographical knowledge.

And a limited one at that, since all had seen were the mountains where
was born, the monastery where I'd grown up,
and the school in Nicosia where I'd studied. Do you know
I
was eighteen when

back:
O.F.:
"Many
Are you
saw the sea
thanks but
telling
me you
for the first
don't want to
time?
become bishop
weren't ambitious?
cabled
stop."
324
M.:
Of course
No
was!
priest
can be happy
my
an ecclesiastical career. But

fact
no sooner had
that
is
sent
my
was 1948, the eve of the struggle

"Will
ing everybody,
Then
when
reply
second cable
independence. Sadly
for
remember
that there
something very democratic. The people participate

taneously, enthusiastically, and without tricks. But
that
mad
I've
cism. In any form.
out to look for a
to
it
taxi,
fanaticism.
didn't
saw
crowd
this incredible
myself to the Church and to Cyprus.
do everything
tell
fanatically
shall dedicate
is
spon-
my name. recovered myself if only to utter

be my first political statement: "You wanted me.
shouting
was
in
And can't stand fanatiSo you can imagine how I felt when, going
arouses a
it
find a taxi at the Nicosia airport?"
already told you that in Cyprus the election of a bishop
you
It
kept ask-
took the plane from Athens to Nicosia and
in
The
you unanimously."
arrived: "Elections held. People elected
took a plane to Athens, and
he doesn't succeed
if
ambitions were different.
can
to
help Cyprus win
the chains of colonialism."
Then
So
And
I'll
freedom and break
its
saw myself
taken to Larnaca, the district where
what
lifted
up and
been elected. And
I'd
moment on, Cyprus became my life.

A good life. Beatitude. A lucky life, let's face
A tough, difficult life, full of assassination attempts,
from that
O.F.:
M.:
it.
anxiety,
and
Still it's
true that two years later,
exile.
was
was triumphantly elected
in
youngest head of a Church

liked
it.
But
it
To get
and ... Of
exile.
doubled
rid
seems anything but

vacation.
respected.
his
in the
my
when
whole world.
political
when
tragic.
Actually
It's
true that
commitment and
me
look back on
it
becoming the
thus
cost
me
to the Seychelles
it
today, that exile
wasn't an exile,
was given a nice house where
The
risks,
the archbishop died,
place,
of me, the British sent
course,
of
in the Resistance against the British.
it
was
was served and
landscape was marvelous, so marvelous that
went back as a tourist and even

bought a little piece of land near the same house, which the
owner, unfortunately, didn't want to sell. The British treated
me well and didn't keep me there long just eleven months.
But at that time I didn't know it and thought they'd keep me
for at least ten years or forever. I had no idea what was going
wanted
to see
it
again,
and
Archbishop Makarios
on
Cyprus,
in
had no
no newspapers, and
radio,
And
speak with anyone.
325
couldn't
And?
O.F.:
M.: Well, all right,

life.
can
you.
tell
I'll
up
stay shut
on the eighth day
have
wasn't born for the contemplative
week
for a
but
in this suite in the Plaza,
go out, see people, do something,
to
You'll object: didn't the monastery teach you anything?
live.
Well, our monasteries aren't very
them do
strict
those who
and not because
so by choice
stay inside
And
they're forced to.
no one says I should go back and live in a monastery. I prefer

to do what I'm doing and
why should I go back to a
.
monastery?
So
O.F.:
was
compare you with those popes. Besides
right to
I've
never believed in the picture some people paint of you: ascevegetarian
tic,
M.: I'm not a vegetarian!
my
of
me
was offered
and
answered
is
Then he
dinner that
came over and
thought he was asking
yes.
put a
One
also eat meat.
a certain official
in India. Tlie waiter
"Are you vegetarian?"

bles
but
like vegetables
most painful memories
flc .ver
if
asked me,
liked vegeta-
my
beside
plate
whole meal served me nothing but vegetables.

was consumed with envy seeing the others devouring chicken,
fish, steaks. In fact, now whenever they put a flower in my
and
for the
hand,
O.F.
But
get suspicious.
was referring
at a party
and you're
said to
know
don't
No, no,
O.F.:
where
true,
It's
What
certain
was trying
who
love popular dances,
should
.
and
cursion,
say?
adjustments.
to
in the
not one of
.
At the same time, however
When
necessary
...
make
like to walk, for instance, to run,
keep
dislike fat people.
walk
was talking about
to ascertain that you're
pray from morning to night and
climb mountains,
sports
I'm usually a very simple man.
to
dance,
woman
is
wasn't talking about folklore.
those priests
seems you
It
a wild belly
have remarked, "The beauty of
that incident.
.
belly dancing.
Beatitude.
dancer did
of God."
like folklore
M.:
to other flowers.
were once
gift
M.:
woods.
shape.
in
Also because
So whenever
.
can,
Under my
robe,
like
take an ex-
you
see,
326
wear
trousers.
home,
sock and
If
because
it's
But cocktail
me
at
in a cas-
me,
parties bore
Maybe
clear, Beatitude.
by their right names.
to call things
to the
things.
made myself
haven't
still
people are used to seeing
can't disappoint them.
and so do worldly
O.F.:
always dress this way, in robes, even
my
was referring
it's
better
women,
to
rumors that you're very fond of women. They even say

Cyprus you have two, well, two wives.
now. In the Orthodox Church, bishops and archbishops
that in
Come
M.:
Only
can't marry.
priests can.
But then they don't become
bishops.
O.F.:
M.:
O.F.
know.
M.:
Isn't
.
said "wives" to be polite.
true you're very fond of
it
women?
let's change the subject. They also say you're not a

man, that a word of truth never comes out of your
mouth. Do you think a head of state should be permitted to
O.F.: All right,
sincere
tell lies?
M.:
No,
this
silent.
something
is
any
lies,
lie,
that
Silence
is
can't accept. I'm so incapable of telling
when
can't
the truth,
tell
always better than
Resistance struggle, the British arrested
being arrested,
deny what
tacts
M.:
What
several times. After
lie,
don't want to say anything.
couldn't
had con-
answered, "I can't
refuse to answer."
kept silent.
what you did with
O.F.: Just
me
was interrogated, and naturally
with Grivas. So, in order not to
prefer to keep
Look, during the
was doing. And then everyone knew
say anything.
And
lies.
did
me when
asked you about
women.
say?
O.F.: Nothing.
M.:
The
O.F.: I'm
me
perfect answer.
beginning
to insist
M.:
And
at this
rule through favors,
and that you're very
possess nothing. Absolutely nothing except that
it
pains
in-
rich,
land in the Seychelles.

world.
point
on the ugly things they say about you. For

you
stance, that
and that
to like you, Beatitude.
little
piece of
haven't a penny in any bank in the
have nothing but a kind of salary, which
can use
as
Archbishop Makarios
but
Hke,
very small.
it's
Greek Orthodox Church

bishop
in
327
administer the properties of the
Cyprus,
and
true,
it's
as arch-
to the arch-
can dispose of anything that belongs
bishop's palace, but I'm not authorized to use a single cent for
Theoretically,
myself.
bishop's palace. As
But
My
my
brother
my
is
driver.
when you
my
I
linen belongs to the arch-
That
many people,
And my relatives
help
than anyone.
friends less
reer; also
even
for favors,
doesn't
seem
me
to
it's
still
true.
less.
a great ca-
stop to think of the attempts that are
made
on my life. I stay in good hotels when I travel, it's true. But do

you know why? Because I have friends all over the world and
they're anxious to pay for me. In London, for instance, after
the coup d'tat, I went to the Grosvenor House, where I
always go. The next morning Charles Forte, whom I'd known
from Cyprus where he wanted to open a hotel, came to me
and said, "Do you know I'm the owner of the Grosvenor
House?"
you
as
And
so
in
my
I
New
hadn't known.
''It
will
be an honor for
me
didn't pay. In fact, he even
York,
cept because
at
I
wanted
me
want
to take
have
to be his guest
the Pierre, another hotel he owns.
didn't
to
London."
guest for as long as you care to stay in
didn't ac-
advantage of him.
why do
they call you the Red Archbishop?

where that came from. Maybe from the
I've never made anticommunist propaganda. Or the
Most of the nonI follow a policy of nonalignment.
O.F.: Yes, but then
M.: I've never understood

fact that
fact that
aligned countries are accused of being leftist-oriented and even
of looking to the Soviet Union.

O.F.
Are you
a socialist. Beatitude?
M.: If you're referring to
can say
social
really
systems,
Swedish socialism, not Soviet socialism,
have nothing against socialism.

it's
the closest to Christianity,
Christianity, or at least to
any social system, from the
capitalist
can contain something good. But
if
system, or the most Christian system,
communism. And
one
had
I'd
let
opinion, the future belongs to socialism.

ing,
through
to
It
it
be.
recognizes that
to the
communist,
choose the best
to
choose socialism.
me
add
will
kind of osmosis between the
all
certain
what Christian teaching should
Christianity doesn't favor any social system
said socialism, not
Among
that, in
end by
my
prevail-
communist coun-
328
tries
and the
The
capitalist ones. Spiritually
that
socialist,
human
egalitarian,
is,
Today
relationships.
it's
already happening.
spirit
equality
permeating
is
all
an almost spontaneous
is
feeling.
an optimist, Beatitude.
O.F.: You're
M.:
And
always have been.
never
at
random. In the
last thirty
change has happened in the world. Thirty years

ago who would have imagined that colonialism would be over
and that war would no longer be accepted as a means for subjugating a country? Who would have imagined that social
years a great
would no longer be accepted with conviction,
hierarchies
that
the word socialism would no longer be frightening?
you believe in socialism, how can you administer a

one of the richest in the world?
Never so rich as the Catholic Church. And anyway the Church
But
O.F.:
if
church
M.:
isn't
that's
reactionary force;
world.
If
it
sentatives.
it
represent the capitalist
doesn't
only of
often goes to the right, the fault
is
And
Church
the representatives of the
repre-
its
aren't the
Church; the representatives of religion aren't religion. When

you think that not even the priests, bishops, archbishops, and
theologians have been able to uproot religion from the hearts
of men! I may be too optimistic, but even the Catholic
Church leads me to make a positive judgment. It's changed so
much in recent years, thanks to Pope John. In 1961, when I
was asked
And
dered
if
naturally
Not only had
a state visit,
had a great desire
was invited by the
to go,
but
still
won-
lack of understanding goes back so
never met a Catholic bishop,
priest!
Our
should.
Catholic
Rome on
to stop in
pope.
I'd
told myself that the other heads of the
dox Church would be offended. But
far.
never met a
Ortho-
soon after that the patri-
arch of Constantinople, Athenagoras, met with Paul VI in

Jerusalem.
Did you
O.F.:
M.:
It
O.F.:
was
feel at ease
interesting.
And who
with the pope?
pity all that protocol.
are the leaders with
M.: Let's say that

that others
some
leaders, not
have
left
me
whom
men, but they were only men
tries.
Among
who
felt at
ease?
They were considered
indifferent.
great
those
you've
many, have impressed me, and

at
the head of great coun-
impressed me,
I'd
put Jack Kennedy.
Archbishop Makarios
329
That childish face of his was really nice; it had a dignity of its
own. Besides Kennedy was simple, human. Along with Kennedy, I'd put Tito. But Tito and I are friends; I like to think he
has the same affection for
such
me
liked Nasser too.
that
have
just let
him.
for
He's
And generous
of clear ideas.
full
"Anything you need,
sides.
I
dynamic man,
me know,"
he always
be-
says.
remember meeting him at the first conferin Bandung in Indonesia. It was
ence of nonaligned countries,

the
time he'd
first
left
Egypt, the
time he'd flown
first
nonmilitary plane, and he was so excited.

ing.
As
for Castro
...
He
don't know.
has certain qualities
With me he behaved
Colda Meir is a very strong,
necessary for a leader.
behaved
like Castro.
in a
found that touch-
he
well,
interesting
woman, but we disagree about too many things. We've met

twice and we didn't exacdy throw our arms around each other.
...
Sukarno
he didn't impress me. Nixon even
And then
less.
An
ordi-
what do you want

me to say? I like Constantine. Not because I'm a monarchist
I saw him coming into the world, I saw him grow up, I
him.
like
But I can't say that because I shouldn't be making
nary man, very ordinary.
propaganda
political
And Mao Tse-tung?
M.:
wouldn't say
him.
for
O.F.:
much
have
in
common
And
with him.
don't
know how to define the impression he made on me. His

met him last May, really wasn't good and
health, when
Let's put it this way: in China he's a kind of god. His fingerI
prints are everywhere,
that
hate fanaticism.
Besides I've
known him
Conference.
Chou
him you can even
me
obsessively,
I
feel
for
En-lai
joke.
more
and
I've
at ease
already told you
with
Chou
En-lai.
nineteen years, since the Bandung

is
He
so intelligent, so pleasant, with
prepared a fabulous
hundreds of thousands of people
welcome
in the streets
for
of Peking,
I
kept saying to him, "You want to
somebody!" We also had fun when he
started talking about our two countries, about the role they'd
."
play in history. He kept repeating, "Our two countries
Shanghai.
a million
in
make mc
feci
like
Finally
interrupted and exclaimed, "Will you do
me
a favor?
Will you stop talking about our two countries, about their historical roles?
feel
ridiculous.
How
can you compare
a little
330
hundred thousand inhabitants with a China of

hundred milhon? What historical role can we have in
common, we two? I'm a mosquito next to an elephant!" Mao
Tse-tung was there too. He tried to smooth things over by saying that mosquitoes can sometimes give a lot of trouble, while
elephants are innocent. But that didn't go down with me. And
island of five
eight
M.:
Do
Ah,
my
kept
still
O.F.:
inferiority
you often
yes. If
complex.
not inferiority,
it's
complex?
feel that inferiority

it's
uneasiness. During
the Soviet Union, for instance,
Every morning
"Good
said to myself,
An
Lord!
Podgorny was nice and
inside the Kremlin!"
my
visit to
stayed inside the Kremlin.
archbishop
polite;
he did
in making me
combined my state visit
with a visit to the Russian Orthodox Church. And that was
worse. The coronation ceremony for the new patriarch of
Moscow was taking place just then, and the crowd was as
numerous as in Peking, as in Shanghai. It was very hard for
nothing but smile
me
behave
to
as
To
M.:
M.:
it,
really felt important.
Look, there's
complex.
lost that inferiority
When?
When
O.F.:
get out of
though
when
only one time

O.F.:
me, but he didn't succeed
at
forget the paradox.
We
visited Malta.
can offer you San Marino.
They've never invited me. But

too.
Oh,
it's
extraordinary the
been named
that have
nothing but meet
Makarios Avenue.
ple.
all,
asked,
in
Nairobi
one week
Mombasa
In
.
did
in
there's a
Ah, Nairobi was the
baptized five thousand peo-
said,
"As many
sand?" "Even
fifty
much.
"Let's
said,
arrived in two days,
naturally
didn't
Muslim.
me very much, and all of

"How many people could
week?" They
And
in
is
Tanzania
and the same
been invited by Kenyatta, another leader who's ima sudden I had an idea. I
I'd
pressed
And
because
of babies and streets
in Africa! In
black Makarioses,
little
Zanzibar, though Zanzibar
best of
number
me
after
comfortable in Africa
I've felt
want
to
as
baptize
you
thousand." Well,
do
five
like."
foot
stayed here a
fifty
first
contingent
from very distant
The water
is
thou-
thousand was too
fifty
should have baptized them

risk.
"Even
thousand." The
coming on
run the
if
villages.
in the river.
But
polluted and I'm a
Archbishop Makarios
331
hygienist. So I threw them all into a swimming pool, adults

For a week I did nothing but fill that
and children, and
pool. It was amusing because there's a Catholic mission there
.
not too well liked because of
that's
nialism,
and
to baptize
its
old
with colo-
ties
even a single person those poor mis-
Help women give birth, nurse

and what have you. For me instead it was quite simdidn't have to do any of those awful things, and the
is that in Africa 1 have at my disposal the largest concen-
sionaries have to sweat like hell.

babies,
ple.
result
Orthodox Christians. Naturally they underit means to belong to the Greek Orthodox Church. You meet some fellow on the street and ask
him, "What religion do you belong to?" And he answers, "To
Makarios's religion!" But it's all right just the same and
tration of black
stood nothing about what
Look,
my
O.F.:
I'll
life.
But
And now
tude.
M.: See
always
if
live in
told you,
couldn't live in Cyprus,
Cyprus
I'd live in
Good-bye, thank you, and see you again
you
York,
is
now
Africa.
begin to understand something about you. Beati-
again in
Cyprus.
as president.
New
Cyprus. As
November 1974
Come when
you
like.
in
Cyprus.
I'll
receive
you
14
Alexandres Panagoulis
That day he had the
face of a Jesus crucified ten times
and he
looked older than his thirty-four years. His pale cheeks were already
furrowed by wrinkles, his black hair already showed wisps of white,
and
his eyes
were two pools of melancholy. Or rage? Even when he
laughed, you didn't believe his laugh. Besides,

that hardly lasted
like
it
was a forced laugh
His
a burst of gunfire.
lips
immediately
locked themselves again in a bitter grimace, and in that grimace
you looked
in vain for a
lost his health,
the
first
reminder of
his health
along with his youth, the
tied for
time to the torture table and they had said to him,
you're going to suffer so
But you understood
at
much
once that he wasn't
once that he was one of those

life,
so well
"Now
you'll be sorry you were ever bom."
sorry to have
he had never been sorry and never would
way of
and youth. He had
moment he was
men
for
do they spend
be.
whom
You
been born;
understood
at
even dying becomes a
their lives.
Neither the most
atrocious tortures, nor the death sentence, nor three nights spent
waiting to be shot, nor the most
inhuman
prison, five years in a
concrete cell one and a half meters by three, had broken him.
Two days earlier, coming out of the Boyati prison with the pardon granted by George Papadopoulos along with an amnesty for
three hundred political prisoners, he had not uttered a single word
that might have helped him to be left in peace. In fact, he had
352
declared contemptuously, "I didn't ask for
imposed
it
on me. I'm ready
deed those
who
more than
before.
to
go back
333
it,
They
that pardon.
to prison right
now."
In-
him feared for his safety, now, as much and

Out of prison he was too disturbing for the colo-
loved
nels.
Tigers on the loose are always disturbing. Those in power
shoot
at tigers
on the loose or else they set a trap to put them back

long would he remain in the open air? This was
thing I thought that Thursday, August 23, 1973, on seeing
in the cage.
the
first
How
Alexandres Panagoulis.
Alexandres Panagoulis. Alekos to his friends and to the police.
Born in Athens in 1939, son of Athena and Basil Panagoulis, who
was an army colonel decorated in the Balkan War and in the First
World War and in the war against the Turks in Asia Minor and in
the civil war that lasted until 1950. Second of three brothers, democrats and antifascists all. Founder and head of Greek Resistance, the
movement
Author of the
to cost
on August 13, 1967, failed by a hairbreadth

and bring down the junta. For this he
tortured incessantly until the trial, where they
Papadopoulos
had been
the colonels never succeeded in destroying.
plot that
arrested,
his life
had discovered that he was not an executor of orders but the leader
of Greek Resistance,
movement that made up most

condemned to death
the
alty that
he himself had asked
for in a defense
hours kept the judges spellbound.

tyranny and
also
know
know
you'll
send
"You
me
pen-
speech that for two
are the representatives of
before the firing squad. But
swan song of every true

squad." That unforgettable
that the
before the firing
of the
opposition; and for this he had been
fighter
trial.
is
his final gasp
Never before had
an accused been seen so transformed into an accuser.
He arrived in
The police
the court with his hands handcuffed behind his back.
took off the handcuffs and locked
him
in a vise that
the shoulders, the arms, the waist, but he
jumped
him by
held
to his feet all the
same, pointing his finger and shouting his contempt.
So
as
not to
make him
a hero, they did not
goes without saying that he
became one
all
execute him.
the same,
And
it
because
it is easier to die than to live as he lived.

They transhim from one prison to another, saying, "The firing squad is
waiting for you." They came into his cell and beat him almost to
death. And for eleven months they kept him handcuffed, day and
sometimes
ported
334
though
night, even
had begun
his wrists
him from smoking, from
they kept
to fester.
Then
periodically
reading, from having a piece of
paper and a pencil to write his poems.
He
wrote them
the same, on tiny pieces of onionskin from
all
packages of the gauze they put on his wounds, using his blood for
"A match
ink.
ink
do
pen
for a
write?
Maybe
ink has coagulated
managed
now a
on whom,
my
you from
write
a prison
address
/
in
But what
Strange, the
Greece."
He
even
send them outside the prison, those beautiful poems
to
written with his blood. His
he was
forgotten gauze for paper
only have time for
I
I
blood that has dripped on the floor for
some
the package from
first
book had won the Viareggio Prize and
recognized poet, translated into Italian and French, and
critics
wrote essays, sententious
literary analyses.
The symbol of courage,
than a poet he was a symbol.
But more
of dignity, of the
love for freedom.
me, now
All this troubled
you greet
it
perfectly.
that
has just
symbol? And
sf)eak to a
member
man who
was
come out
in his presence.
of a tomb?
was nervously biting
remember
it
because
from that Thursday, August 23. The landing

not finding
him though
had
search for Aristofanos Street,
house was. The
taxi driver
who
let
in
How
How
my
nails
do
do you
re-
remember everything
in
Athens.
him know of my
The
fear of
arrival.
The
the Glifada quarter, where his
finally
found the house and began
The sultry day, my clothes

The crowd of visitors who thronged the garden,
the terrace, every comer of the house. The other journalists, the
voices, the shoving. And him, sitting in the midst of chaos with the
to
shout and make the sign of the cross.
sticking to
my
skin.
face of Christ.
He
as soon as he saw
and ran to embrace me as though he
had always known me. Anyway, if he hadn't always known me, we
already knew each other. In those periods when he was allowed to
read a few newspapers, he was to tell me, my articles had kept him
me
looked very
he sprang up
tired,
indeed exhausted. But
like a cat,
company. And he had given me courage by the simple fact of existing, of being what he was. So my worry about having to face a
symbol instead of
''ciao/'
come
he replied
or felicitation.
stay in
man
''ciao,"
I
I returned his embrace, saying

and there were no other words of wel-
vanished.
simply added, "I have twenty-four hours to
Athens and prepare the interview. Immediately afterward
335
must leave for Bonn. Is there a corner where we can work quietly?"
He nodded silendy and then, plowing his way through the crowd of
visitors, led me into a room where there were many copies of one
of my books in Greek. Besides these, there was a bouquet of red
roses that he had sent to me at the airport and that had come back
because the friend charged to welcome me had not been able to
find me. Touched,
thanked him brusquely. But he understood
my brusque tone because, for a moment, the melancholy look
disappeared from his eyes and his pupils showed a flash of amusement that dismayed me again. It was a flash that made you divine a
host of tender and vehement feelings in conflict among themselves,
1
without peace.
a soul
We
be able to understand this
And immediately
which was beguiling, resonant, almost
voice,
persuade people.
who
Would
began the interview.
The
man?
was struck by
guttural.
his
voice to
tone was authoritative, calm, the tone of one
no replies to what he says

no doubts about what he says. He spoke, that is, like a
political leader. While speaking, he smoked his pipe, which he almost never took from his mouth. You would have said his attention
was concentrated on that pipe, not on you, and this imparted to
is
very sure of himself and allows
since he has
him
a certain harshness that
recent harshness,
that
is
to
was intimidating since
it
was not a
say ripened by physical and moral
agony, but an innate one and thanks to which he had been able to
triumph over physical and moral agony.

At the same time he was considerate,
polite,
and he
left
you
al-
most dumbfounded when, by a sudden veering you know, the way

a motorboat veers when it is proceeding directly and then suddenly
turns to go back
his harshness broke into sweetness, as melting as
The way he poured you a beer,

The way he touched your hand to thank you for some
the smile of a child.
changed the features of
came disarmed. His

eyes,
its
large
and
his face,
face
still
which, no longer sorrowing, be-
was not handsome with
more
strange
mouth,
And
yet quite soon
its
small, strange
forehead too high,
its
and, finally, those scars that ruined everything.
cheekbones.
for instance.
remark. This
On
the
lips,
on the
he seemed almost handsome
an
absurd, paradoxical handsomeness, and independently of his beautiful soul.
No, perhaps
first
would never understand him.
meeting that the
man was
decided from that
a well of contradictions, surprises,
33^
egotism,
generosity,
which would always enclose
illogicality,
mystery. But he was also an infinite fountain of possibilities, and a

personality
whose worth went well beyond
Perhaps
sonality.
only a part of his talent. Perhaps,

they didn't put
him
for
him back
moment
they didn't
if
in the cage,
that of a political per-
only a
politics represented
in his life,
him
kill
soon,
if
we would one day hear about
heaven knows what other things.
How many
hours did
books and flowers?
It's
we
the one detail
aware of time passing when you

story of the tortures,
first
of
room with
stay there talking in the
all,
the
don't remember. You're not
listen to
to tell. The
He had them
what he had
the origin of his scars.
all over his body, he told me. He showed me those on his hands,
on his wrists, his arms, his feet, his chest. Here they were exactly
where the wounds of Christ were at the level of the heart. They
had inflicted them on him, in the presence of Papadopoulos'
brother, Constantine, with a jagged paper knife. But he showed
them to me with detachment and no self-pity, stiffened by an excessive, almost cruel self-control. All the more cruel when you
realized that his nerves had not emerged intact from those five years
of
hell.
And
this
was revealed by
was revealed by
his eyes
when
mute contempt. Pronouncing
his teeth
they
the
mother when she came
into
names of his
isolated himself in impenetrable pauses

his
when he
dimmed
and
in to ask if
bit his pipe;
it
lamps of hatred or
torturers, in fact,
failed
even
to
he
answer
he wanted more beer or
coffee.
His mother came in often. She was old, dressed in black like the
widows in Greece who do not give up their mourning, and her face
was a network of wrinkles as deep as her suffering. Her husband
dead of a broken heart while Alekos was in prison. Her eldest son
disappeared. Her third son in prison. Furthermore she had been in
prison herself, for four and a half months. But they hadn't suc-
ceeded
in
breaking even her. Neither by threats nor by blackmail.
In a letter to a
London newspaper, she once wrote of her
sons:
"Trees die on their feet."
At a certain point Eustace, the youngest brother, freed by the amnesty only a few hours earlier,
came
everyone called Stathis, seemed

his youth,
his health,
into the
his cheerfulness.
with laughing eyes and prancing
room. Eustace,
different. Prison
legs,
He was
whom
had not impaired

a
handsome boy
the look of a baseball player.
Alekos without mawkishness, but so violently as to
He embraced
make
his
bones crack, then
tried
to
minimize
whelmed by
his
sat
down to one side to listen; he almost

You guessed him to be over-
presence.
It
was
he had taken
ref-
his admiration for Alekos, his love for Alekos.
Alekos that
for
337
in
1972 he had
left
Rome where
uge, and had returned secretly to Greece.
He wanted
to organize
him another escape attempt, and for this he had been arrested,
and condemned to four years and nine months. Plus four
for
tortured,
and
a half years as a draft dodger.
However, he had been
in prison
1967, and you lost no time in discovering
before, for instance in
he was made from the same dough, or rather the same rock,
he
was the third pillar of this extraordinary family.
that
Ah, if only we had also seen George arrive from the garden! But
that
George was not
to arrive.
the eldest brother
the rank of captain.
remain
in the
fled across the
No one knew
who had
In
anything more of George,
followed his father's career and attained
August of 1967 George had refused
Greek army, and
like
Alekos had deserted.
to
He had
Evros River to Turkey, and arriving in Istanbul had
sought asylum in the Italian embassy.
To our shame,
the Italian
embassy had refused him asylum, beating about the bush over the
necessity of informing the Turkish government, then the Italian
government, and so on. George had
fled again, this
time
to Syria,
Damascus he once again appealed to the Italian embassy,

which behaved in the same way. Nevertheless, an embassy more
deserving of respect, a Scandinavian one, had taken him in, and
and
in
there he
had remained
for a
month,
until the
the street and the Syrian police discovered
Now
fleeing
day he went out into
him without
a passport.
from the Syrian police, he had reached Lebanon.
From Lebanon he would have
liked to
embark
for Italy,
but did not
do so since the Arab countries recognized the Greece of the

colonels.
He had
preferred to cross over into Israel, a country that did not
have diplomatic relations with the Greece of the colonels, and

go to
Italy
on
a ship
from Haifa. And instead,
had arrested him. George had trusted them, he had told them
he was, and they had arrested him
all
to
in Haifa, the Israelis
the same, to turn
who
him over
to
They did not even give him the benefit of a

trial; they simply loaded him on the Anna Maria, a Greek ship that
plied between Haifa and Piraeus. And at this point all trace of him
the Greek government.
338
was
lost.
seems that George was
It
still
in the cabin before the ship
straits between Aegina and Piraeus. But when the ship

was approaching port, the cabin was found empty. Did he escape
by jumping ship? Was he hurled by someone from the ship? His
body was never to be found. Every so often the sea gave up a
entered the
corpse, the authorities
summoned Athena
to see
if
she recognized
and Athena answered, "No, that's not my son George."

At some hour in the evening we interrupted the interview. The
crowd of visitors had dispersed, and Athena had offered me hospitality for the night. She had also prepared a dinner, set out on the
best tablecloth, and so we ate: myself, she, Alekos, Stathis, a
friend. Alekos seemed less tense, less solemn, and soon opened a
it,
door
to his infinite surprises, letting
He
versation.
called his cell,
himself go in a facetious con-
example,
for
"my
villa
in
Boyati,"
with outdoor and indoor
describing
it
swimming
pools, golf courses, private cinemas, dazzling salons, a
chef who sent
as a very luxurious place,
for fresh caviar
polished his handcuffs.
hunger
strike
from
Iran, odalisques
In this paradise
who danced and
he had once gone on
"because the caviar wasn't fresh and wasn't gray."
And then, in the same

known friendships" with
tone,
he gave examples of
his
"widely
Aristotle Onassis, Stavros Niarchos, Nel-
son Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, or described his "personal
jets,"
and the yacht that the day before he had "borrowed from Princess
Anne of England."
I
couldn't believe
concrete
my
eyes and ears.
Was
it
possible that in the
tomb he had been able to salvage his sense of humor, his

Not only possible, but undeniable. "You can't
capacity to laugh?
me at one point, "if you

making fun of people. He's always been like
that." However, after dinner when we resumed the interview,
Alekos returned to being serious and nervously biting his pipe. We
spoke, this time, until three in the morning, and at three-thirty I
fell exhausted on the bed they had prepared for me in the living
room. Over the bed was a photograph of Basil in his colonel's uniform, and the frame was crowded with gold, silver, and bronze
medals, evidence of the various campaigns he had fought up until
understand Alekos," Stathis confided to
don't
know
his habit of
when he was an engiUniversity and member of the
1950. Beside the bed was a picture of Alekos
neering student at the Polytechnic

central
committee of the Youth Federation of the "Union of Cen-
ter" party.
An
intelligent
and
witty
little
mustaches, and which was no help
Then
remembered having
to
339
face, at that
me
time without
fathoming
in
a mystery.
seen, in the next room, pictures of
the three brothers as children.
up and examined them. The
got
one of George revealed an elegant and solemn little boy, politely

seated on red velvet. The one of Stathis revealed a somewhat less
elegant, less solemn little boy, but likewise seated politely on red
velvet. The one of Alekos showed a tiger cub with an angry scowl
on the red velvet, seemed to announce with

"No, and I mean no! I won't sit on that
thingamajig!" His little knitted outfit hung loosely to show that he
didn't give a damn about his outer appearance, and so it was useless
for his mother to scold him or plead with him; he was going to do
as he liked all the same. And almost as though to show his rejection
of advice, orders, and the interference of others, his right hand
rested proudly and provocatively on his hip; his left was holding up
who, standing
erect
anarchistic independence,
where he had
his pants at the point
How
long did
remember. But
really don't
attention
was
attracted by
ered with dust.
took
it
document
But
it
was
remember
something
in
my hand
ing a secret, and discovered
with a
attributing
it
button.
who had
photographs? This
that at a certain point
else: a
rectangular object cov-
seventeenth-century Bible,
ownership
to
Alekos Panagoulis.
document, and
this
Alekos was
fought as a guerrilla against the Turks.
from the seventeenth century
find out later that,
my
with the sensation of penetrat-
was
its
a three-hundred-year-old
an ancestor
lost a
stay there studying those
was
to 1825, the
to
Pan-
Some had been

young Jorgos who died in the
1823. Others had been named Stathis. But most
agoulis family had supplied nothing but heroes.
named
Jorgos, that
is
battle of Faliero in
of
George,
like the
them had been named Alekos.

Next morning
was not
made me promise
in the hospital,
clear
poem
left for
a final departure.
up the
come
Seeing
me
it
goes without saying that
off at
it
the airport, Alekos had
back, and a few days later, while he was
returned to discover things that helped a
little
to
secrets of his elusive personality. First of all, the long
to me. It was entitled "Voyage" and

on an endless voyage, a ship that never
the temptation or the need to dock in any port, approach
that he
had dedicated
told of a ship that
yielded to
to
Bonn. And
had
any shore, or drop
its
left
anchor.
The crew
protested,
at
times im-
340
would have resisted a storm,

and continued to follow a light.
The ship was himself, Alekos. And also the captain was himself,
also the crew. The voyage was his life. A voyage that would end
only with his death, since the anchor would never be dropped.
Neither the anchor of love, nor the anchor of desires, nor the
anchor of a deserved rest. And no argument, no flattery, no threat
would be able to induce him to do otherwise. So if you believed in
that ship, if you cared about that ship, you must not try to hold it
back, nor to stop it by the mirage of green banks and earthly paradises. You should let it go on the mad voyage that had been
chosen, and that amidst his host of contradictions was the fixed
point of an absolute consistency. "Even Odysseus at the end rested.
He reached Ithaca and rested," I remarked after reading the poem.
And he answered, "Poor Odysseus." Then he handed me another
poem that began as follows: "When you landed in Ithaca / what
unhappiness you were to feel, Odysseus / If you had more life
ahead of you / why arrive so soon?" I think I really became his
plored, but the captain resisted as he
friend that day, listening to
him
in the hospital.
went other times to Athens, and never mind if each

time the Greek authorities were less pleased. While not daring to
deny me an entrance permit, the police filled out forms about me
that they never filled out for anyone, and during my stay in Athens
Indeed
they scrupulously occupied themselves with

difficult thing to do, since
lived in the
house
my
person. Hardly a
in Aristofanos Street,
where the telephone was tapped and four policemen in uniform,

heaven knows how many in civilian clothes, kept watch on every
door, every window, the street
itself,
twenty-four hours out of the
twenty-four.
Psychologically,
it
was
as
though Alekos were
were there with him. Once he accompanied

days.
And
for five
still
me
in prison
and
to Crete, for five
we were constantly followed, spied on,

we had gone to visit Knossos, the
bumper to bumper. We went into a restau-
days
provoked. At Heraklion, where

police cars followed us
and they planted themselves there to wait for us. We

museum, and they planted themselves there. Then
often we saw them coming from the opposite direction, because
they were equipped with radios and had changed shifts. A nightrant to eat,
went
into a
mare. At the Xania airport
was insulted by an agent
in civilian
On
clothes.
the plane that took us back to Athens,
egated to the
whole
in
sure of a supper in
dog our
heels.
minister
rel-
seats
They even
who had
we were
and kept under surveillance for the

wouldn't even allow us the pleathey
Athens,
Piraeus without a policeman soon arriving to
two
last
Back
trip.
341
harassed us at the funeral of a democratic
died of a heart attack, and needless to say, Papa-
dopoulos never granted the interview that according to the Greek

embassy in Rome he had been ready to give me. What a pity. It
would have been amusing

stood by democracy.
And
would have been
It
to ask
Mr. Papadopoulos what he under-
also by amnesty.
more amusing
still
wherever he went, was welcomed

stopped
his
him
let
to tell
him
that Alekos,
national hero.
embracing him and even trying
in the street,
hand. Taxi drivers
like
him
drivers stopped traffic to greet
get in
him.
even
And
at
People
to kiss
forbidden points. Car
not seldom, in bars, they
want him to pay the check. In short, everyone was for him
and with him, and only those who were in the service of the colo-
didn't
And
nels were against him.
non,
finally
object of
it.
understanding a
man
for
phenome-
who was
the
example, his disgust and
peace that would never be achieved
through explosions of desperate and de-
spairing rage, heedless audacities,
loannides, the strong
the difficult creature
better,
thirst for a
that manifested itself
followed this extraordinary

little
Understanding
unhappiness, his
and
mad
telephone
of the regime, daring
Dimitrios
calls to
him
to arrest
him
again.
Or
else following in
him
ing intuitions of Odysseus,
the craftiness of Odysseus, the shatter-
whom
he increasingly resembled
in
And the tears that filled his eyes when he looked at the
Acropolis, to him the symbol of everything in which he believed.
And his dark silences. And the outbursts of joy that brought back
every sense.
all
of a youthfulness regained for a few hours, for a few minutes.
immedimood. And the exaggerated,

indeed puritanical modesty with which he refused women when
they offered themselves to him with love notes, open invitations,
cunning stratagems. Besides, neither of his past adventures in love
And
the sudden boyish laughter, the unforeseeable jokes
ately canceled by those about-faces of
nor of
body:
was
his present sentiments did
"A
serious
man
he ever confide anything
to
any-
doesn't do that." Shy, stubborn, proud, he
thousand persons inside
a single
person
whom
you could

342
What
never cease to absolve.
a joy to hear
him
with his assassination attempt, "I didn't want to

capable of killing a man.
even easy
him
for
In
request.
wanted
to obtain
for a passport.
documents
the
no record of
was missing from the
name, but not
came
ing he
was not
it
register.
He laughed
his.
office, for instance,
having been born. Suddenly his
his
you
terness. "I wasn't born,
Who
But
necessary for the
every office where he applied he found underhand
Kafkaesque obstacles. At the Glifada municipal

there was
man. I'm not
to kill a tyrant."
meantime, he had asked
In the
connection
say, in
kill a
name was
Athena's
about
see.
it,
there,
name
Stathis'
with poorly concealed
bit-
was never born." But one morn-
back, jumping with joy. "I was born!
was born!"
can say why they changed their minds.
A week
later,
it
was
Monday, they gave him
valid for a single round-trip journey.
on an
And
the passport
three hours later,
we
left,
Rome. But not even our departure was
Alitalia flight for
Once past the customs, the police, the baggage exwe came down into the waiting room and immediately
civilized one.
amination,
a flock of
policemen
in civilian clothes
surrounded us
provoca-
and we reached Gate 2. We presented our embarkation cards. They pushed us back. *'Why?"
Alekos asked. Silence. "We have regular passports and regular embarkation cards. And we've completed all the formalities." Silence.
All the other passengers had gone through, boarded the bus, got off
the bus, and boarded the plane. The plane was awaiting only us.
And we couldn't even approach the boarding ramp. What was
tion.
Then
worse,
Alitalia
the flight was called
we were given no
explanation, nor was any given to the
employees who were escorting us
Ten minutes,
fifteen,
twenty,
like
VIPs.
twenty-five,
thirty
...
still
haven't understood why, after thirty minutes had gone by, they
us go on board.
security.
Maybe
let
they had telephoned to the chief of public
Maybe he had informed Papadopoulos and Papadopoulos
had decided that

point as well, to
it
wasn't a good idea, from the international stand-
make
the last minute. But
the mistake of preventing our departure at
haven't understood something else:
haven't
understood why, once the doors were closed, the plane was held for
another forty minutes on the runway. There were no problems with
the control tower that day. There was only a great embarrassment
on board. An embarrassment
were
in the sky.
The
however, once we
that vanished,
bluest sky in the world.
he was received
In Italy
343
And
hero, as a symbol.
as a
also in
France, in Germany, in Sweden, wherever he went in Europe to
keep his struggle
alive,
help against the dictatorship in
to ask for
him
Greece. Only the United States did not receive
They
at all.
He dreamed of going to Washington to

thank the senators and congressmen who had helped to save his
life, to explain to them why he went on fighting for freedom. He
him
steadily refused
wanted
also
wanted him
a visa.
accept the
to
from
to read
American consulate
the
been the
answered
in
Milan.
"Where
in surprise.
The one where
itary prison!
happened
was
Boiati?"
is
was held
intervened: "Sir,
It
I
first
all
"Next
to
Athens!
His eyes
who was con-
filled
with terror, he grabbed the passport where he
though unsigned, and
he refused
back
to
to give
it
its
to call the Italian police
owner.
come: The
insult,
and
insult of the
this
almost an hour
for
finally did
CANGELLED
was the beginning of
American ambassador
when
in
threat-
for robbery.
that soiled the
many
insults to
Rome, Mr. John
who never answered the protests that wrote him. (Volpe is

man who grants visas to any Italian fascist who wants to visit
Volpe,
the
He
and have him arrested
But then he stamped an enormous

an
including the per-
Lyndon Johnson." The vice-consul became
visa,
like
mil-
death
thought you had recognized Mr.
had already put the
page
The
for five years after the
the democratic governments of the world,
ened
room of
in a
death and not executed because of the intervention of
to
sonal intervention of
pale.
for the
''Where have you
there.
Panagoulis, the hero of the Resistence in Greece
demned
that
universities
years?" the vice-consul asked. "At Boiati!" Alekos
last five
sentence!" So
some
poems. But when he asked
something shameful happened.
visa,
of
invitation
his
America and have

Almirante,
who
is
his contacts in
on
trial for
Washington, including Giorgio
reconstruction of the Fascist party in
Italy.) The insult of the American general consul in Rome, a

woman, who wrote Panagoulis a brutal letter to endorse the behav-
ior of the vice-consul
and
praise
man who had

therefore a man guilty
it,
explaining that no visa could be
of a head of
granted to a
attempted to take the
state,
of a breach of such-and-such Immigra-
tion
Rules,
which meant
that
life
Mr. Panagoulis had commited
344
crime of "moral turpitude." The insult of Henry Kissinger himself,
who
tors
personally denied the visa in spite of the intervention of sena-
and congressmen. The

and
singer
sider
"moral turpitude"
it
Many
insults of all those
things have
to fight
happened since then.

found its voice
sistence to the dictatorship
the Polytechnic
Papadopoulos
Under
tyrants.
only
to
like
Henry
Kis-
November 1973
In
replaced
loannides' leadership, the
re-
in a students' revolt at
be silenced by their massacre. As a
only to be
fell,
who,
hands with the dictators and conthem.
his ambassadors, shake
by even
new
more
result,
vicious
colonels dared to at-
tempt that which even Papadopoulos had studiously avoided: the

conquest of Cyprus and assassination of Archbishop Makarios.
Faced with the prospect of war with Turkey, the colonels were
forced to resign, and democracy was resumed with the return of
Karamanlis.
struggle
was July 1974, and Alekos, who had continued the

exile in Italy, was finally able to return home. He
It
from his
had made several clandestine
power and he chose August
trips
while the dictatorship was
13, the anniversary of his
sassination of Papadopoulis, as the day he
would
still
attempted
in
as-
officially return
home.
Three months later, November 17, the anniversary of the day on
which his death sentence had been handed down, Alekos was
elected to serve as deputy to the Greek parliament. Together
with the other sixty members of the Union of Center Party, he
serves in the opposition.
In addition to his political activities, the
seriousness of his interest in literature was confirmed by the release
of a
new
poetry collection,
Alekos has entered a
Wn'fe from a Prison
new world whose
broadened and matured him. (Someday, someone

of the noble position he took in Papadopoulos'
posed the death penalty
Greece.
in
heavier responsibilities have
for the ex-dictator.
will
trial,
have
to tell
when he
op-
Alekos argued that such
would be just only when the suppression of freedom has

upon the citizen the moral right and duty to act as pros-
a sentence
forced
ecutor, judge,
killing
is
And because
cluding one in
for those
When
and executioner.
freedom has been restored,
reduced to mere personal vengeance.)

of these
this
trips
have made
book. By that
who oppose power and
want
to
this interview the
demonstrate
fight against
it.
my
So here
is
con-
choice
the in-
terview
had with Alexander Panagoulis
when we met
that
has
it
for the first time.
like to say
In
at the
It
it
what
politics
to say. Perhaps,
the same, he
all
sense,
not be surprised
and
may
it
be crazy to say
point. True,
it
them. But
his activities
it
man
but
has everything to say.
still
don't know. In
if
mind
release and that the
fact,
repeat,
it
possible that
is
And
only one aspect of his talent and personality.
is
nor does
end of August 1973
should be read keeping in
took place only two days after his
much more
345
were
undergo
to
a turn at
would
some
he carries the stigmata of the tribune and the leader,

to me that it will be easy for him to free himself of
seem
his authentic culture
thentic vein
is
based on literary culture, his au-
is
the poetic vein, and
repeat, "Politics
is
a duty, poetry
it
is
no accident
that
he
likes to
a need." In the mystery that
is
surrounds him and will perhaps always surround
him
in
my
eyes,
only one point seems clear to me: he will never find what he
seeking. Because
what he
seeking does not
is
exist.
It
is
is
dream
And weeping, cursing, suffering, we

when a thing does not
exist, one invents it. Haven't we done the same with God? Is it not
perhaps the destiny of men to invent what does not exist and fight
called freedom, called justice.
can only pursue
for a
telling ourselves that
it,
dream?
ORIANA FALLACI: You don't look happy, Alekos. But why? You're finally out of that hell and you're not happy?
ALEXANDER PANAGOULIS: No, I'm not. I know you won't believe
me,
feel
did
I know this will seem absurd and impossible to you, but I

more irritated than happy, more sad than happy. I feel as I
last Sunday when I heard those hurrahs coming from the
other prisoners, and
cells of the
the hurrahs, and thought:
Papadopoulos
is
It
making
didn't
must have
his
to
know
the reason for
do with an amnesty.
proclamation,
so
getting
he's
ready to put on a show with an amnesty that will impress the

naive.
By now he can
tend to be
us go.
me
too.
feel
any
it's
all
tious;
less afraid.
doesn't cost
thought "some of us" because
rather, prelet
some of
didn't think he'd free
And when found out on Monday morning, didn't

None whatsoever. said to myself if he's decided
I
joy.
right to free
it
Or
him much to
afford to be less afraid.

It
means
me
too,
he's really
it
means
his plan
is
more ambi-
counting on legalizing the junta
346
within the framework of the Constitution and seeking recogni-
from
tion
Coming
his old opponents.
commandant had announced

you've been pardoned."
doned?
didn't ask
soon realize
Before
get
Erythrae
O.F.:
You
A. P.:
Sure.
it's
him
What
the prison
cell,
pardon."
me
Erythrae,
you'll
in
but hard
to get
me
have put
in
me
that?
else
could
say?
you, very kind of you, give
Should I perhaps have said thank

compliments to Mr. Papado-
my
poulos? Besides Tuesday was worse.
You know,
there's a spe-
procedure for reading the amnesty decree to the
cial
out.
again."
suburb of Athens.
is
told
for
easy to put
to
my
"What do you mean, parThen added, "You'll
said,
anyone
in
the pardon to me: "Panagoulis,
pris-
ceremony with a platoon presenting arms, the

others standing at attention, and so forth. So, around noon.
Prosecutor Nicolodimus arrives for the ceremony, and they
take me out of my cell and lead me in front of the commandant's quarters, where everybody is standing up, and so forth. I
see a chair and immediately sit down. Dismay, surprise. "Panagoulis! On your feet!" orders Nicolodimus. "And why?" I answer. "Why do you have to read a piece of paper that you call
oner
a kind of
a presidential decree but for
colonel?
others
on
down.
me
And
me
only the piece of paper of a
is
won't get up. No!"
When
with
and
And
stay sitting.
so forth,
They had
and me
my
I
legs crossed.
provoked him
Take your things."
if
to celebrate the
I
the lieutenant colonel
in the afternoon,
free.
A. P.:
to pieces.
sat there
yourself.
O.K.:
No,
their feet, at attention,
ing them.
two
wouldn't have given up that chair even
chopped
while
The
sitting
they had
ceremony
never stopped provok-
came
to get
me, about
too. "Panagoulis, you're
"I don't take anything.
Take them
didn't ask to leave."
he?
said the same thing as the others. "Once you're outyou won't say that. You'll discover the dolce vita and
change your mind." Then they took my bags and carried them
to the gate like porters. It was amusing because in one of those
bags they were carrying like porters I had hidden the last
Oh, he
side,
poems
I'd
written and the
little
saws
used to saw the bars.
They're tiny saws, look. But they work. Seventeen times they
found these saws on me, and yet
when left Boyati

And the next time
of them, and
here, see?
to
A. P.:
come back and
me
O.F.:
get
me
to take
347
more
them
I'm always expecting them
me back there. And you want
I
was always able
had about
ten.
to get
kept
be happy!
to
once you were outside, when you saw the sun and
your mother, it must have been wonderful.
It had
It was like going blind.
It wasn't all that wonderful.
been so many years since I'd been outside that concrete tomb,
And
so
yet,
many
years since
When
strong sun.
Then
I'd
and outside there was a very

had to close my eyes.
it on me,
I
little, but only a little, and with my
felt
reopened them
seen the sun and open space.
I'd
what the sun was
forgotten
like,
went forward. And by going forward, I discovered space. I no longer remembered what space was like.
My cell was a meter and a half by three; I could only take two
and a half steps in it. At the most three. Rediscovering space
eyes half-closed
made me
dizzy.
round, and
walk
more than
for
myself spinning inside
felt
staggered and almost
fell.
hundred meters,
merry-go-
like a
Besides even now,

I
and
get tired
if
dis-
oriented.
No,
fort to
hasn't been wonderful.
it
believe
it.
Or
go forward
sudden, in
all
And
don't care
do care and never mind.
made
in all that sun, all that space.
that sun, in
all
that space,
saw a
if
you don't
a terrible ef-
Then
spot.
all
of a
And
the
And from that group of people a

black figure detached itself And it came toward me, and little
by little it became my mother. And behind my mother another figure detached itself And this one too came toward me.
And little by little it became Mrs. Mandilaras, the widow of
emNikoforos Mandilaras, murdered by the colonels. And
spot was a group of people.
braced
terward
my
.
O.F.: Afterward
A. P.:
No!
who
mother,
af-
you
cried.
didn't cry!
don't cry.
others.
embraced Mrs. Mandilaras, and
If
Not even
by chance
my mother
we
In these years I've cried
dered Georghadjis and
But no one saw
me
when
cry
cried!
We're people
we never cry
only twice: when
cry,
they told
was inside
in front of
they mur-
me my father was dead.

my cell. And then
.
348
then nothing.
laras
went home with
and the lawyer. And
at
my mother and
home
found
Mrs. Mandi-
a lot of friends.
my friends until six in the moming, then went to

bed in my own bed, and don't ask me if felt moved at sleeping in my own bed. Because
didn't feel moved.
was with
Oh, I'm not
you know! I'm not! But I'm hardened. Much hardened, and what else do you expect from a
man who for five years has been buried alive in a concrete
tomb, without any contact with the world except with those
who beat him, insulted him, tortured him, and even tried to
murder him? True, they didn't execute me after pronouncing
insensitive,
instead of dead.
me
But they buried
that death sentence.
And
for that
all
despise them.
the
It
same
alive
was their
right
me, since I made that assassination attempt, and

how! But they had no right to bury me alive instead of dead.
to execute
That's
now
why
allow
O.F.: Alekos,
feel
me
who
nothing but rage toward those clowns
my
to sleep in
bed.
Do you want
don't say such things.
to
go back to
prison?
A. P.: If
we were
to look at things logically,
should really have been
taken back before arriving in Erythrae. I'm ready to go back to

prison at any
moment. From
this
moment
on. Since yester-
day, since the day before yesterday, since the
moment
was
you something else: if my going

back to prison would do any good, I'd be happy to go back.
Because for what reason should they take me back to prison?
blinded by that sun.
I'll
tell
For what I say to others or to you? But isn't it my right to say

what I think under a democratic regime, and doesn't Papadopoulos insist that Greece is a democracy? Papadopoulos has
every interest in keeping me outside and showing the world
that he cares nothing about what I say. And if he wants to go
about harming me intelligently, he has to make me fall into
some trap. But that he's already tried.
The day
after
my
release
was a student, though
just
some
from
big kid
came here
his haircut
saying he
you could
tell
right
away that he belonged to the military police. He told me he

had killed an American who'd been taken as a hostage to free
Panagoulis, some time ago, and then asked me for some machine guns. I yelled and threw him out, and then telephoned
immediately
to the military police.
who had
of those
him
receptionist, "Tell
agents provocateurs,
They weren't
Who
me
he sends
said to the
another one of his
me
in prison
My
God!
imagine them
just
me now.
being able to break
it
if
and so
out,
beat the hell out of him."
able to break
O.F.: Alekos, aren't

A. P.:
that
I'll
one
tried to get the chief,
He was
tortured me.
349
you
afraid of being killed?
knows! Since they want
look like liberals, democrats,
to
wouldn't even be to their advantage
to
me
kill
for the
moment. But they might be thinking about it. In March of

1970, immediately after the murder of Polycarpos Georghadjis,
the hero of the war of liberation in Cyprus and minister of
Archbishop Makarios, they

evening and
of a sudden
fire.
was
beasts,
floor;
open the door. But
was about seven
It
it.
new hunger
day of a
my
heard a whistle and
threw myself on the
tried
in the fifth
in the
strike.
All
straw mattress caught
shouted murderers, bastards,
was more than an hour before
it
opened the door. An

hour during which the mattress went on burning and burning
... I couldn't see any more, I couldn't breathe. When the
prison doctor came, a young second lieutenant, I was in a
me
they took
out, or rather before they
coma.
As
found out
he wanted
later,
the hospital, but they didn't
between
life
and death
ate effort to save
hospital.
me and
The men
my
my
cell.
me
to take
him, and
The
succeeded
for
immediately to
two days
doctor
made
in transferring
stayed
a desper-
me
to the
of the junta showed themselves to be
Very often
pletely indifferent.
because
in
let
fainted
and
com-
couldn't speak
throat hurt and even breathing was painful. After
young second lieutenant got some older

come and see me, and when they saw what
forty-eight hours that
medical officers
condition
was
cal officers said
telephoned
later,
forces,
to
in,
it
they were furious.
was
crime
to
keep
to his superiors to protest.
he also called the commander

who's
now
Odysseus Anghelis.
The
chief of the medi-
me
If it's
in
in the cell,
true
what
and
heard
chief of the armed
vice-president of the pseiido democracy,
He
told
him
that their refusal to have
transferred to a hospital
was
denounce them. And
was thanks
it
a criminal act
to
him
me
and that he would

that they finally ad-
350
mitted me. In the hospital they found ninety-two percent carbon dioxide in my blood and they said I wouldn't have lasted
more than two hours even if Fd gone beyond the two hours,
But do you
in any case, I wouldn't have survived. And
know why
O.F.:
A. P.:
they freed Theodorakis?
Theodorakis? No.
Because I was about to die. That Frenchman was in Athens.

That Servan-Schreiber. And it seems he'd come to take me
away. They wouldn't have handed me over to ServanSchreiber, of course, even if I'd been well. And besides there
was the
tempt
I was in a
murder me. So,
fact that
to
state
of
coma
as a result of their at-
in anticipation of the scandal that
would have broken out with my death, they gave him Theodorakis. Amusing, isn't it? I don't mean by this that I wasn't
happy about the release of Theodorakis. He had suffered so
much
tried to
A
it.
But how
O.F.: Interesting.
A. P.:
But
in prison.
the story
did you
come
is still
amusing.
have proof that they'd
to
murder you?
few days before, they had taken away
my
mattress to *'dust"
That happened very seldom, every three or four months.
And when they brought it back to the cell, the guard came to
me. The guard was a friend. He said, "Alekos, did you hide
anything in your mattress?" "No, nothing. Why?" answered.
I
saw Corporal Karakaxas poking around inside it as

though he were looking for something." I didn't give any im"Because
thing
at the time,
but
still
thought when the mattress caught
fire
was that they'd put
portance to the matter
phosphorous or
name
that
cused
me
something inside
plastic or
came
to
mind
the
it.
first
And
the
first
was Karakaxas. Naturally they ac-
of setting myself on
fire.
that six days before they'd taken
But when
my
reminded them
cigarettes
and matches,
they realized they were in trouble. Major Kutras of the mili-
came to me and said, "If you don't

what happened, you have my word of honor that
you and let you go abroad."
tary police
Since
me
mother's
saw him
anyone
refused even to discuss such an offer, after ten days
they threw
my
tell
we'll release
back in the
visits
cell,
and from
were forbidden. As
in five years.
for
on even
that time
my
never received his
lawyer,
letters,
never
he never
351
And even that's not all there is to be said about

and criminal treatment of me. They were obviously afraid I'd reveal the attempted murder and so all my
mail ended up on the prison director's desk. Even the letters I
wrote to Papadopoulos. I wrote to Papadopoulos as the moral
received mine.
their illegal
him all my disgust and conThey should have had the courage to publish them,
those letters, or at least to make them public. I sent so many of
them, to all addresses. And then wrote to the president of the
sent him telegrams to let him know
Constitutional Court.
me and to tell him I was ill. But not
doing
to
what they were
leader of the junta, to express to
tempt.
even he ever received

F.:
And how
p.:
Less well than
my
telegrams and
My
look.
health
weak, exhausted. Sometimes
walk
you now, Alekos?
are
when
another
yesterday,
three steps and
a lot of things are
was
have
wrong
They've taken
me
been reassuring
Monday
to
just
have
had one
out of prison.
liver,
my
and the
to the clinic
I
always feel
can't
down. And aside from
sit
my
in
good.
isn't
have breakdowns.
to
my
lungs,
that,
kidneys.
results haven't
first
go back.
weakened me. You'll

on yourself? Because during interrogations a hunger strike is a means of keepmean, that they can't take
ing your head. You show them,
hunger
All those
say but
why
strikes, for instance,
hunger
also inflict those
strikes
everything away from you since you have the courage to reject
everything.
tack them,
I'll
doesn't allow
During
up
try to explain.
them
man
is
to
himself.
is
and
it's
and you
the
man
at-
being tortured keeps
personal struggle by the tortured

1
this
mean
that with
hunger
strikes,
won't allow the interrogation to
useless to interrogate or torture
These conditions are
some-
realized
days without food or water, especially
if
you
because of the wounds inflicted by the tortures. So
they're forced to transfer
even
if
loses consciousness.
after three or four
lose blood
Understand?
weakened and
be continued, since
one who
to eat
aggressive attitude, systematic interroga-
transformed into
the body
you refuse
apply a systematic form of interrogation.
torture, for instance,
a provocator)'
tion
If
they get nervous and the fact of being nervous
my memories
you
to the hospital
and
of the hospital are painful.
They
Oh,
tried to
352
me
feed
then
O.F.:
A. P.:
And
my
with a plastic tube put up
when
even
had the feeling
nose.
suffered a
lot,
And
was gaining time.
then?
Then, from the
room and
hunger
hospital,
and again
strike,
me
they took
started torturing
I
me
me
tried to feed
havior of
some
to the torture
me
new
started a
provoked them, again
temptuous, aggressive. So their system

they were forced to take
back
Then
again.
was con-
And
failed again.
again
where again they
to the hospital,
through a tube in the nose. Oh, even the be-
doctors was disgusting.
My
continued
torturers
way
the interrogation in the hospital, but in a less consistent

since there they couldn't use their methods.
and
repeat,
that
was important
been impossible
for
me
me. In
to
short,
up hunger
to give
gained time,
would have
it
strikes.
They were
too indispensable a weapon.

O.F.:
During the
interrogations,
understand.
But
later,
Alekos, in prison?
A. P.:
Even
in prison
had no
better
way
to express
my
disgust,
contempt, and to show them they couldn't break me. Even
was now
my
if
By rebelling through hunger strikes, I had

of not being alone and I felt 1 was offering some-
a convict.
the feeling
thing for the cause of Greece.
thought
if
kept a steady, cou-
rageous attitude, the soldiers and guards and the officers themselves
would understand
determined
that
to win. Besides
was there
many
to represent a people
of the hunger strikes
went
on in prison were provoked by the way they behaved with me.

They wouldn't even let me have a newspaper, a book, a pencil,
a cigarette.
And
in order to
have
newspaper, a book, a pen-
on end. I
smoke
lasted
that
went on one strike that lasted forty-seven days, one
forty-four, one forty, one thirty-seven, two thirty-two, one
thirty, five between twenty-five and thirty ... I went on so
many. And despite this, they never stopped beating me.
Never. I took so many beatings in that cell. They broke my
cil,
ribs
or to
when
healed.
O.F.:
When
A. P.: If
a cigarette,
they
.
beat
me
refused to eat. For days
with
iron
rods;
they've
barely
did they beat you for the
last
time?
you're talking about a serious beating,
on October
25, 1972,
on the
day of
thirty-fifth
hunger
the straw mattress.
of a sudden he said that
all
Papadopoulos and that
Then
had
my
left in
Malakas
and
throat
rain of blows that
me
think of
couldn't
lift
Switzerland.
little
for
an hour and
my
a half.
it.
a finger
they'd beaten me. They'd tied
the sheet and saw
lifted
when
hurts
still
it
March 17
and beaten
in
yelled, ''Malakas! Dirty
defended myself. But that day

Also on
money
me
to assassinate
gathered what
could
started insulting
voice
malakasr
bad word in Greek. Zakarakis reacted with such a
is
silent.
was lying on
strength;
been paid
I'd
put the
I'd
couldn't keep
just
and
more
same he
hardly breathe any more. All the
and
in,
didn't have any
Nicholas Zakarakis,
strike.
came
the director of the Boyati prison
353
When
me
Usually
and
to the cot
Dr. Zografos
body, he closed his eyes in horror.
one bruise from head to foot.

on the lungs and on the loins,
and so for two weeks I spat blood and urinated blood. So how
can you expect me to feel well now? Besides the business of
urinating blood also comes from something else they did to
It
was
body
as black as ink,
me
They'd beaten
me
especially
during the interrogation.
won't ask you about
O.F.:
A. P.:
Why
which
not?
tied
one of
naked
urethra.
Alekos.
it,
it's
something
also told at the trial
informed the International Red Cross about.
Babalis,
Anyway
to
my
that
bed,
iron
kind of needle.
was
was
he put an iron wire up
my
who
torturers,
did
it
Then while
ing obscenities, he heated the
"After
they don't
all,
know how
to
do
the others were shout-
It
about torture,
To
stay
handcuffed
was awful. You can
day and night,
how do you
perhaps
isn't that
my
morning,
wrists,
at
for a
few hours.
my
they had running sores.

I
Two
succeeded
in
informing
is
I
Ten months,
month did they
or three hours in the
were bleeding, and
wrists
me,
a torture?
My
hands
some
places
the insistence of the prison doctor.
were swollen,
to
decide which
months, ten months
for ten
day and night. Only beginning in the ninth

free
was sticking
that
But they did that thing
it.
talk
say,
me. While
they didn't use electric shocks on you." No,
and when you

the worst?
to
end of the wire
out red-hot with his cigarette lighter.

say,
and
It
in
my
mother,
who
filed
an
official
354
And
written accusation with the prosecutor general.
cusation
proof, because
is
my mother
if
had written
that aca false-
hood, wouldn't they have indicted her? Didn't they indict

Mrs. Manganis
when
she revealed that her husband. Professor
George Manganis, had been tortured? They put her in prison

too, that great lady, though she'd told the truth. They could
afford to because in her case
But
cusations.
mother
had
my
left
list
prove the ac-
difficult to
They
And were
couldn't imprison
my
They were
the
obvious.
my whole
on
carried
make
on the
three sears
broke
scars
to
was
it
no.
case,
the proofs existed.
wounds and
If
my
in
body.
of the tortures
side of the heart.
foot with the phalange.
got
them
Look
at these
the day they
Naturally they always
used the phalange on me, which consists in beating you on

the soles of your feet until the pain arrives at your brain and
you faint. I even stood that fairly well. But that day Babalis
went all out and broke my left foot. Five minutes later Constantine Papadopoulos came in. You know, Papadopoulos'
brother. He put his pistol to my head and shouted, "Now I'm
going to kill you, I'm going to kill you!" and he started hitting
me. While he was doing that, Theofiloyannakos hit me over
the heart with an iron paper knife with a jagged point. 'Til
stick
it
in
your heart,
I'll
stick
it
in
your heart!" That's
how
got these three scars.

O.F.:
And
these scars
A. P.:
Oh,
these
ing serious.
know,
one and
on your
have scars
say:
wrists?
when they pretended to open my veins. NothThey only cut me superficially. Anyway, you
got
all
over
Now when
did
my
body. Ever so often
discover
get that? After three weeks of tor-
them any more. I felt my

opening up somewhere
else, and just thought: Here we go again. They usually began
their tortures by whipping me with a metal cable. It was Theofiloyannakos who whipped me. Or else they hung me from the
ture,
didn't pay any attention to
blood dripping somewhere,
ceiling by
my
wrists
and
my
left
me
flesh
there for hours.
It's
hard to
becomes
as though paralyzed. I mean, you can't feel your arms and
shoulders any more. You can't breathe, you can't cry out, you
take because after a while the upper part of the body
way and
can't rebel in any
and when
They knew
reached that point they beat
Do you know what

*
Theofiloyannakos
all this,
me on
of course,
the loins.
could never get used to? Suffocation.
did that to
me
my
holding
too,
nose and
Oh, that was the worst of all. The

He held my nose and mouth for one minute, watching
mouth with both

worst!
his hands.
the clock, and he
He
blue.
355
me
let
stopped doing
biting him.
almost
using a blanket and
with his hands
But then he switched
bit off his finger.

.
Another thing
when I was turning

when I succeeded in
take a breath only

it
to
couldn't stand were
tortured me in silence. Never. They

... In voices that were no longer voices
And then the cigarettes crushed out between
They never
the insults.
shouted, shouted.
but roars.
the testicles.
why do you
Listen,
from me?
not
It's
only want to hear about these things
They
right.
Military Hospital 401,
if
With him, during
taklis.
Do you know what
aloni.
do
didn't just
you can, and ask
interrogation,
his
the aloni
is? It's
me. Go to
Major Mus-
to
it
to see
they
when
used the
the torturers
stand in a circle, then they put you in the middle, and they
you
hit
at
his neck. He's
still
I'd
him
lies in
bed
like a
"clinically dead."
you something, Alekos. Before
to ask
like
He
completely paralyzed.
vegetable and the doctors pronounce

O.F.:
all
once. They beat him on the spine and the back of
all
this
hap-
pened, could you stand physical pain?

A. P.:
Oh,
The
no! No.
and
surably,
people suffer
least little
made me
suffer.
to tolerate physical pain

is
how
credible
man can show

bearable.
harder
Some
*
The
admired people who were able
and couldn't see how they did
That
man can
it.
got.
change, and
it's
Man
It's
wonderful
in-
how
himself to be capable of bearing the un-
rhetorical proverb,
really true,
is
me immea-
an extraordinary creature, a sea of surprises.
really
fire,"
toothache bothered
couldn't stand the sight of blood. Just to see
The more
steel
is
they tortured me, the
say that under torture
chief of the torturers,
'The
tempered by the
you know. The more they tortured me, the
you
now condemned
call
to
on death
twenty years
more
resisted.
as a liberation.
in prison.
(O.F.)
356
not true. At least not for me.
It's
never afraid, but
be lying
I'd also
be lying
I'd
if
said
my
Dying was the
last
not giving
of not talking, and of rebelling.
in,
idea to enter
knew how many times

iron table,
hit
them
head.
myself!
kicked and bit them.
fainted.
Then
ing.
A. P.:
always wanted to
If
they started again, but
No.
only realized
and
you only
was very useful because
It
me
harder
till
like rest-
the day they
it
shouting
Now
Czechoslovakia!
showed
me
came
"Russian
my
to reporters, after
And
the heart.
know!" And
it
most awful thing,
Go on
I
with your
cell
have
realized
first
waving
entered
seemed to
you know,
felt
me
something
was
it
when
they
escape attempt. There
were so many, from so many countries. And

''But then they
my
in
tanks
nobody'll have the time or wish to be
concerned about you!" And then
A. P.:
If
wasn't tied to the
because fainting was
faint,
was
Excuse me, Alekos. I'm curious about something. But did

you know that the whole world was concerned with you and
was protesting about you?
newspapers
O.F.:
said
thought only of
they got more furious than ever and beat
O.F.:
if
ever wanted to die.
said to myself,
like a caress
on
alone. Because the
less
isn't to suffer. It's to suffer
alone.
story, Alekos.
was saying that when they insulted me, "criminal, bastard,

fag," other unrepeatable vulgarities,
traitor,
back.
daughter!" But coldly, without losing
mean? I'm
they sent
it's
better that
you
as
had the
it.
glass in
Then
scoundrels.
me
head, you see what

get cold.
One
day
an officer who was an expert in psychological inYou know, one of the ones who says, "My dear
for a glass of water.
broke
them
insulted
me
him
I
my
very emotional, but with rage
terrogation.
boy,
For instance: 'Til fuck your
yelled frightful things.
Seeing he was so
talk."
He had
my
it
brought
to
polite,
me. But
asked
as
hand, instead of drinking out of
with the broken
glass,
soon
it,
threw myself on those
them before they jumped on

on the pieces of glass, and one
cut two or three of
and threw
me
to the floor,
piece almost cut off half
my
right little finger.
also cut the
I can't move this finger any more. It's a dead

Then you know what that beast Babalis did? He called
tendons, you see.

finger.
the doctor, and without freeing
my
wrists,
which were
tied
my
behind
back, he had
him
screamed
like a
A. P.:
Never! Never! Never!
to
finger.
little
That day
hurt!
to talk?
never said anything. Never.
had taken
attempt on
myself for the
bility
it
madman.
implicated anyone. Never. Since
wanted
how
you ever tempted
O.F.: Listen, Alekos, weren't
my
take stitches in
Like that, without an anesthetic. God,
screamed.
357
know who would have
all
never
the responsi-
Papadopoulos'
they
life,
taken over the responsibilities
of the government
if the attempt had been successful. But they

word out of me. One day when I was lying on the
iron bed and really couldn't take any more, they brought in a
Greek named Brindisi. He had talked, and now he was crying.
didn't get a
Crying, he said, "Enough, Alekos.
It's
no use any more. Talk,
The only BrinThe same day they brought in

Avramis. Avramis was a member of Greek Resistance, an expolice officer, a brave and honest man.
knew
denied that
Alekos." But
disi
know
answered, "Who's
an
is
this Brindisi?
Italian port."
him,
denied that he belonged
filoyannakos yelled,
ready admitted
it.
knows you. And he's alAdmit the same thing and we'll get this
"You can
business over with."
were
my
to get
this
Even
man. You've
you want him
said,
hands on you
confess anything.
know
to."
Greek Resistance. Theo-
to
that
see he
Theofiloyannakos.
"Listen,
one hour,
for just
If
make you
I'd
you raped your mother.
don't
him and now he says what

And Theofiloyannakos: "Whether you talk
tortured
or not, we'll say that you've talked."

Listen, even
under the most atrocious tortures
trayed anyone.
Anyone. And
animals respect.
The
the chief of police,
direction of
his
head and
happens once
doesn't
talk.
agoulis.
He
in
But
this
is
my
tortures
was entrusted
One
said, "It's
night, seeing
no
use.
No
hundred thousand times

is
that case.
to tell
you
this.
spit
blood,
that
It
someone
He's too tough, this Pan-
won't talk." loannides has always
group. This tiger broke his handcuffs." Well,
me
me
to
now
use insisting.
said,
group we can be sure we haven't decimated

nice for
never be-
something even those
the then Lieutenant Colonel and
Brigadier General loannides.
he shook
this
Maybe
is
"The only
Panagoulis'
maybe
it's
not
you'll get the idea I'm a
fop and write that I'm self-satisfied and stuff like that. But
358
must
you
tell
tion. Isn't
O.F.:
Of
the same, because after
all
a great satisfac-
all it's
it?
course
it
And now
is.
Alekos. After suffering so
like to
I'd
much,
know something
you
are
else,
capable of loving
still
men?
A. P.:
Of still loving them? Of loving them more, you mean! God

damn it, how can you ask such a question? You don't think I
humanity with the brutes in the Greek military police?
only a handful of men! Doesn't it mean anything
identify
Why,
to
that's
you
that in
same ones?
these years they're always the
all
Always the same ones! Listen, bad people are
a minority.
And
bad man, there are a thousand, ten thousand good

ones namely their victims. The ones you have to fight for.
You can't, you shouldn't, see things so black! I've met so
many good people in these five years! Even among the cops.
for every
who
Yes, yes. But just think of the soldiers
smuggle
my
letters,
my
risked their lives to
poems, out of prison! Think of
all
who helped me when tried to escape! Think of the docwho had me taken to the hospital, and when was in the
those
tors
hospital ordered the guards not to keep
me
my
said.
ankles. "I can't
"This
isn't a
prison!
who
Panayotidis
do that," the guards

It's
a hospital!"
me? One day he came up

I
have done
if
it
the
even
courage
me
to
all
rebel.
about that fellow
me
it
to do.
my
to
me,
Forgive
man
Do you mean man is fundamentally good, man
A. p.: No.
mean that man is born to be good, and
good than bad. And listen, to accept men, all
.
the doctors:
embarrassed and
what they ordered

they'd told me to do
did
to
And
and always spat on
participated in the tortures
"Alekos, I'm sorry.
haven't
What
bed by
tied to the
said,
would
father.
Alekos."
Oh,
O.F.:
is
think of something that happened
when
was
born good?
is
I
more
have
to
often
do
is
in the hospital
me by setting fire to my mattress. There

woman in that ward. You know, one of
those old women who mop floors and clean toilets. One day
she came by and stroked my forehead and said, "Poor Alekos!
after
they tried to
kill
was an old cleaning
You're always alone!

back tonight and
things, all right?"
sit
You
never speak to anyone.
beside you, and you can
Then
tell
I'll
come
me
about
she went toward the door and there
she was grabbed by the guards,
who
took her away. She didn't
come back
back.
and
to her
O.F.:
that night.
waited for her but she didn't
never saw her again.
359
come
never found out what happened
Are you crying, Alekos? You?!
don't cry. I'm moved. Kindness moves me.

I'm not crying.
Goodness moves me. And so I'm moved. Understand?
O.F.: I understand. Are you religious, Alekos?
mean, I don't believe in God. If you talk to me
A. P.: Am I? No.
I
can only say that I agree with Einstein: I believe
about God,
in Spinoza's God. Call it pantheism, call it what you will.
And if you talk to me about Jesus Christ, I can say that's all
right with me, because I don't consider him the son of God
but the son of man. The sole fact that his life was inspired by
the wish to alleviate human suffering, the sole fact that he suffered and died for men and not for the glory of God, is enough
A. P.:
to
make me consider him
You
vented by man.
The
great.
man
see,
of consideration because he can't

ceived so
As
love.
grew up
much
hate in
my
life
a child, for instance.

in
wasn't just a question of family.
should
say?
Of
on
diers.
happy child because
was
a question of
it
how
discoveries.
For instance, during the

the island of
re-
much
loved each other. But
all
It
I've
received so
I've also
was
without love.
live
but
where we
a family
greatest of all the gods in-
can't leave the idea of love out
occupation we took refuge
Italian
Leukas where there were a
They always
me
called
lot
of Italian sol-
"little one, piccolo, piccolo, pic-
and then gave me presents. A chocolate, a biscuit. My

father, an army officer, didn't want me to accept those
presents and insisted
throw them away. But my mother said,
colo!''
My
"Pick them up and say thanks."
doing
it
to insult
me
bad soldiers but good men.

up.
It's
hard
mother knew they weren't
but to be kind. She
been
I've
less
completely happy
to feel
knew they weren't
happy since growing
when you
realize that
others don't always care about the things you care about.
when
saw the indifference of
problems of
life,
well,
my
And
contemporaries for the
wasn't able to be happy any
more. Like today.

O.F.:
It's
curious, Alekos.
You
talk like a
ceive the idea of trying to

A. p.:
Before April 21, that
is
kill
man who
can't even con-
someone.
before the
coming of the
colonels,
360
couldn't even conceive the idea of killing.
been able
wouldn't have
harm my worst enemy. Anyway, even
to
idea of killing
repugnant
is
to
me. I'm not
today, the
a fanatic. I'd like for
everything here in Greece to change without spilling a single
drop of blood.
way.
Still less
don't believe in justice applied in a personal
do
believe in the
who've tortured me,
word revenge. Even
for those
don't conceive the word revenge.
the word punishment and imagine only a
trial.
For
use
me
it
would be enough to see them sentenced to one day of prison

in the cell where I spent five years. I care too much about law,
never challenged Papadopoulos' right
rights, duty. In fact, I've
to
me
have
the
tried
way they
and sentenced. What
always protested was
carried out the sentence, the beatings they gave
me, the cruelties they inflicted on me, the concrete tomb

where they kept me without even allowing me to read and
write. But when someone does what I did, the attempted assassination
mean, he doesn't go against the
And
acting in a lawless country.
what
lawlessness. See
Look,
if
one, and
mean?
come up and
start
slapping you, and you can't even
me because the law doesn't protect

think? What are you to do? Mind you,
slaps, nothing more. A slap doesn't even
But there should be
law that forbids
And
if
this
me
even
law doesn't
a necessity!
was talking about
hurt,
it's
me
only an in-
to slap you!
you a kiss if you don't want it!

what do you do? Don't you have
to give
maybe even
To
bother you any more?
you, what are you to
law that forbids
exist,
the right to react and
becomes
is
you're walking in the street and not bothering any-
report
sult.
law. Because he's
the answer to lawlessness
Or
kill
me
so that
won't
your own hands
take justice into
rather a duty! Yes or no?
O.F.: Yes.
A. P.:
I'm not afraid to say

so
much, and I'm
those
who
killed
it
it:
full
in
know what
hatred
is
too.
love love
who kills freedom,

instance. God damn it, it's
of hatred for anyone
Greece, for
hard to say these things without sounding rhetorical, but
There's a sentence that turns up often in Greek literature:
"Happy
to
be free and free
a natural death in his bed,
with rage.
to
I
Overcome with
be happy." So
...
when
can't help
hatred.
In
my
it,
a tyrant dies
I'm overcome
opinion,
it's
an
361
honor for the Itahans that Mussohni came to the end he did,
and it's shameful for the Portuguese that Salazar died in his
bed. Just as it'll be shameful for the Spaniards when Franco
dies of old age.
God damn
You
it!
can't let a
And
into a herd of sheep.
listen,
whole nation be transformed

I'm not dreaming of utopia.
know
very well that absolute justice doesn't exist,
never
exist.
But
know
where those who
where
there are countries
get
country
is
deprived of their
insulted,
attacked,
it'll
a process of
So what I'm dreaming of
justice gets applied.
that
Is that too much to ask?

man can ask. That's why get
so angry with the cowards who don't rebel when their fundamental rights are violated. wrote on the walls of my cell: "I
can demand
rights,
Bah!
It
seems
justice in a court.
me
to
the least a
hate tyrants and cowards disgust

O.F.: Alekos
when
A. P.:
this
What
did you feel
they sentenced you to death?
At that moment, nothing.

for
me."
a difficult question.
is
and
it,
dying
so
was expecting
it,
was prepared
didn't feel anything except an awareness that by
be contributing to a struggle that would be carried on
I'd
by others.
O.F.:
And were you
A. P.:
Yes. Absolutely sure.
O.F.: Alekos
know
if
about
he's
this
you'll
to
would shoot you?
sure they
question
want
is
more
still
to answer.
What
And
difficult.
does a
man
don't
when
think
be shot?
wondered myself Many times. And I tried to say it in a

poem I wrote in my head the morning when they came to find
out if I was asking for pardon and I answered no.
It's a
poem that gives a pretty good idea of what was thinking at
A. P.: I've
moment.
that
hear
ders
ries
/
/
the
first
reached
that
It
goes like
my
ears
"As
morning
will
that
lost
but not for a
for a
flooded
moment was
it
the branches of the trees
so
as far as
in a
way
morning
that
moment
my mind
tomorrow
was only
was waiting." And look,
who've explained
At the same
thought dead
ing sobs of the past
ers
this:
blows of the ax
the or-
memo-
old
like sobs
wish
I
Hope?
sorry
/ it
rend-
The
too
was
that wouldn't arrive
that the platoon
know, there are three

similar to
what
felt.
writ-
One
362
Dostoevsky
is
The
third
in
death of Christ.
But
Idiot.
The
Idiot.
What
is
Camus
in
The Stranger.
later in Boyati,
it
disturbed
me
of the
tells
knew
says,
The Stranger, and when
Dostoevsky
hadn't read
Another
Kazantzakis in the book where he
is
read
I'd
did,
The
much
thought the
to discover that I'd
same things while I was waiting for the hour of execution. I

mean, all the things you'd like to do if they weren't about to
cut off your head. To write a poem, for example, or a letter.
To
read a book, to create a
cell.
life just as
for yourself in that little
little life
wonderful because
it's
life.
But
was
especially disturbed to read the version that Kazantzakis gives
on the death of
moment
Christ. There's a
book when
And dreams a
in that
Christ closes his eyes, on the cross, and sleeps.
dream that's a dream of life. He dreams that

But I don't
want to talk about it. It's not good to talk about it.
O.F.: It doesn't matter, since I've understood anyway that you were
dreaming of making love to a woman. In Kazantzakis' book,
Christ dreams he's making love to Martha and Mary, the sisters of Lazarus. Yes
ten minutes of sleep to dream of life.
.
A. P.:
right like that,
It's
it's
beautiful like that. But
how
did
you spend the rest of that night?

The cell was a bare cell, without even a cot. They'd put a
blanket on the floor for me, that's all. I was handcuffed.
Always handcuffed. So for a little while I lay there handcuffed
on the
My
then
floor,
got
up and
about twenty-one. They looked

hostile;
me
To
in
at the
cheer them up,

as
stration.
sive,
Young,
thought that
in a little
started talking
would have spoken
to
about
while
I'd
politics.
students during a
be shot.
spoke to
demon-
explained to them that they shouldn't remain pas-
they should fight for freedom.
with respect.
Deaths."
officers.
nice guys and they weren't
like
looked as though they were sad about
fact they
depressed
them
started talking to the guards.
were three noncommissioned
guards
even recited a poem
You know,
music. While
was
And
they listened to
I'd written:
me
"The Three
the one that Theodorakis has set to
reciting, they
wrote the verses on their cig-
arette packages.
Then
scripts,
those three were relieved by three

and among them was one who sang
others, also conin the
choir of a
church.
myself play a cruel joke.
let
what he sang
joking,
"Some
him,
told
when you
sing for
me,
him
asked
sang
it
of those words
my
at
He
Mass.
for the funeral
363
to sing
me. And
to
don't
like.
me
still
And
funeral Mass, you mustn't say
call me servant of the Lord.

No man should be anybody's
servant. Not even of the Lord." And he promised that for me
he wouldn't sing those words, he wouldn't call me servant of
them. For example, you mustn't
No man
anybody's servant.
is
we stopped that cruel game and went on to sing

some other songs by Theodorakis.
what does a man feel when they tell him that
O.F.: Alekos
they're not going to shoot him after all?
A. P.: They never told me the death sentence was suspended. For
the Lord. So
three years they never told me.
tence
And
Greece
in
death sen-
At any moment, during those
valid for three years.
is
three long years, they could have opened the door of
and said, "Let's go, Panagoulis.

you."
The
first
morning,
had gone
and
by,
suspended
Maybe
thought
ready.
six, six-thirty,
was something new. But
When
seven,
eight,
squad came
Here we
myself:
go.
some
to the
for a
maybe
red tape.
door of
cell
at five, five-
didn't think the execution
five-thirty
my
had been
few hours.
the prosecutor
Then, around
And
cell.
said to
But someone gave an order and the squad
disbanded. Right after that they told
me
my
waiting for
began to suspect there
the helicopter had been held up,

to take care of
is
saw that
had been delayed
it
had had
squad
firing
was expecting to be shot
Even the grave was
thirty.
The
morning because
me
they wouldn't shoot
was the Feast of the Presentation

of the Virgin, so there wouldn't be any executions. They'd
that
shoot
me
November 22.
dawn again, and the second night was
and at dawn was ready again. An officer came
next day,
started waiting for
like the
and
I
it
first,
said,
refused,
"Sign the request for pardon and you won't be shot."
and
just as
was refusing,
giving a curt order to the soldiers outside.
we
go.
and
in
prison.
trol
Here we
really
go
took
me
to
And
this time. Instead
the afternoon they took
They
heard another officer
me away
me
to
thought: Here
from the Aegina
the military port and
Boat P-21, they took
nothing happened,
there, with Pa-
the office of the military
364
The
police.
an
place where
and he
officer
I'd
said to
been interrogated. Here there was

me, "Panagoulis, the newspapers
have already reported your execution.
you
terrogate
and
like,
as
we
you'll die
Now
we'll be able to in-
make you tell anything we

under torture. And nobody will know it
please. We'll
because everyone thinks you've been executed."
they
malicious threat, however
didn't torture
was only
It
me
that day. At
dawn on November 23, they put me in a car and said, "Panagoulis, no more fooling around. We're taking you to be executed." Instead they took
me
to Boyati.
wonder how you've managed to keep a clear mind

after having been five years alone and buried inside a concrete
box not much wider than a bed. How did you do it?
O.F.: Alekos,
A. P.:
Simply by rejecting any idea of having been defeated. Besides

I
never
ing.
defeated. That's the reason
felt
Every day was a new
new
be a
battle.
thought of
my
into energy.
battle.
was
just this
and
little,
had come
my
my
into inertia.
fall
came from my
to
rage was transformed
want
me
to
to escape for the
not to be in prison.
struggle,
to
wanted
to
my comrades
to give my all,
be with
determined
certainty that I'd given too
done too little.

Greece had been overwhelmed by the
that I'd
When
I'd said to
my
friends,
"My
only ambition
put an end to this dictatorship,
one
didn't
into the struggle
desperation
my
fight-
wanted every day
energy that always helped
new ways to escape.

escaping, I mean so as
escape to continue
again.
never allowed myself to
think up
sake of
Because
oppressed people and
It
never stopped
Not
to die in this battle.
my
is
only wish
so as to live
dictatorship,
my
to give
is
to
life
be the
more than
to
last
others but
more than others." And today, in all sincerity, I can

same thing to my friends and I don't care if our enemies know it. On the contrary. I certainly don't delude myself
to give
say the
that
I'll
be alive the day
believe with
all
my
when
victory will be celebrated, but
heart that that day will be celebrated. For
that to happen, however,
must go on
fighting.
together with the idea of escaping, helped
me
And
this idea,
not to go crazy
in those five years.
O.F.:
But
how
A. P.: In the
did you plan to escape from that tomb?
most incredible ways.
First of all,
thought of a way
to

send messages to
my comrades.
my succeeding
.
possibility of
little
in escaping, the idea
left
me. Never.
My
fail
than to
yourself into inertia.
lull
two attempts that
principle was the
but that to
failed
night the guards open the door of
and they don't
always,
panicky and
idiots get
me
find
was fun
to listen to
had the keys!" "Well,
As
I'd
you about
tell
One
amusing.
the
same time
as
foreseen, those
on the
the walls,
could have been hiding: under the

it
cell, at
inside.
never
as today: better to
Now I'll
me seem
my
me on
for me
and not thinking of looking
only place where
cot.
was under the
cot,
who came in
who
the other: "You're the one
not fight about
let's
ceiling,
in the
them. "You're the one
And
the cell this morning!"
same
shouting, panting, mutually accus-
start
ing each other, looking for
and
Even knowing there was
365
him!" And away they go, out of the
it!
and find
Let's try
cell, to give
the alarm
leaving the door open.
So
fifty
rushed out of the
meters.
another
and ran
cell
stopped against a
tree.
in the dark,
From
this tree
for
I
some
reached
then the shadows of the kitchen, and then the
tree,
People were yelling
prison wall.
all
over the yard: "Alarm,
"Alarm canceled. Canceled!" I hoped

someone would hear it and believe it. Now all I had to do was
get over the wall. I was just about to when a soldier saw me
and grabbed me.
O.F.: How did you feel when they grabbed you?
A. P.: I certainly wasn't happy about it. But
just
didn't get angry;
alarm."
yelled too:
thought:
It
Next time
doesn't matter.
will
it
go
better.
of soap.
I'd
made
using soap and pieces of bread, and then
I'd
painted
next time was with a pistol
with the
of burned matches.
tips
time, as though
it
were
a brush.
barrel.
One
night they
food and
...
came
pointed
The
myself,
it
it
black
You know, one match at a

The barrel I'd made with the
from cigarette packages and
tinfoil
my
made
it
looked
my cell
my pistol
in
just like a
metal
as usual to bring
at
me
them. There were
They got so scared that the one holding the tray

The other two looked paralyzed. And the whole
three of them.
let
it
drop.
business was so funny that

to
laugh was too strong.
given in to the desire to
couldn't keep
it
up
the impulse
You won't believe it, but if hadn't

laugh, maybe
would have succeeded
I
366
But
in escaping.
And that's
But how many
fun.
O.F.:
A. P.:
had the consolation of having had
times did you
Many times. Once, for

of my cell with a spoon.
I'd
succeeded
in getting
hole
in
try to escape,
Alekos?
example, by digging through the wall

It
was October 1969, and
them
then, by a hunger strike,

tain
to
put a
toilet in
even got them
front of the toilet.
to let
at that
time
the cell.
And
me
chose that place
the curtain acted as a screen.
make
to
worked on
put a cur-
through
it
but
couldn't get
had too many clothes on.
had
out through the hole, and then
all
to
the
for at least
it
two weeks, and on October 18 the hole was ready. So

slip
a httle
something.
tried to
way through because I

take them off, throw them
the
slip
through the hole again.
That spoiled everything. A guard went by, saw the clothes,

and gave the alarm. They immediately pounced on me. Right
away the interrogation began. They didn't want to believe that

I'd dug through the wall with nothing but a spoon. They tortured me to find out how I'd done it. Oh, you can't imagine
how they tortured me!
After the tortures they took me back to my cell and even removed my cot. I went back to sleeping on the ground, handcuffed, and with nothing but a blanket. Two days later Theofiloyannakos reappeared. "How did you do it?" "You know,
with a spoon." "That's impossible, it's not true!" "And what
do I care if you believe it or not, Theofiloyannakos?" And that
was the beginning of more kicking and beating. Then, two
weeks later, there even came a general: Phaidon Gizikis. All
nice and polite. "You can't complain, Alekos, if they keep you
handcuffed. After all you dug a hole in the wall with a spoon!"
And
I:
"You're not really going to believe those imbeciles?
You're not really going to take the story about the spoon
seriously? After
his feelings.
all,
And
back on a hunger
a wall isn't a custard
for
having teased him
strike.
They
cot, or take off the handcuffs.
and gave
me
back the cot
didn't
O.F.:
Which one?
want
to give
But they took them
after forty-seven
nothing but a few drops of coffee.

it.
pudding!" That hurt

like that,
had
me
to
back
off,
go
my
finally,
days of living on
even wrote a poem about
A. P.:
The one
Want."
called "I
want
"I
to
367
pray/ with the same
want to punish / with

the same strength with which I want to pardon / I want to
give / with the same strength with which I wanted to in the
beginning / I want to overcome / since I cannot be over-
which
strength with
want
to curse
come."
now
But
made
at
ferred
me
ril
you about another attempt. The one
tell
Goudi and
away I started
to the military police training center in
of the guards was a friend of mine. Right
one
the end of February 1970. In January they had trans-
My
planning another escape.
had two
cell
locks.
asked
my
and buy as many

Along with the locks, the keys. He
brought me back about a hundred of them. One by one we
tried them, and one was the one we were looking for. But it
opened only one lock, of course. So we had to find the second
locks as he could,
friend to go to the market
similar to those
one
too.
guard
He
locks.
told
We
we found
so
was
mad
we would
escape.
And
spent the morning trying the
with joy
crete.
now
new
my
locks,
would
get
away
that night.
Or
rather,
certainly couldn't stay there after
Everything was ready.
It
seemed impossible
my
to fail.
Instead two hours later, about eleven in the
me and
to get
they had built

I
He
get away.
instead
February 16, he was
later,
the key that opened the second lock.
morning, they came
Where
go back to the market and buy other
to
eight to eleven in the morning, from ten to mid-
night at night.
and
him
and two days
did,
from
two.
me
took
understood that the transfer
me
only so as to build
me
new
cell.
back
to Boyati.
In reinforced con-
a special cell.
Goudi had been
to
secure
cell, in
reinforced
concrete.
O.F.:
The
cell
A. p.:
Yes.
And
from
this
you were
in until the
they locked
new
cell
me
in
was June
it.
2,
other day?
The
1971.
first
time
Then
tried to
again to the military police center, but there too
cape
on
publicity,
August
since
30.
That was the escape

trial.
You
see, the secret
in
is
yourself, never to feel yourself a victim, never to
victim.
I've
never played the victim
not
me
tried to es-
most
that got the
Lady Fleming was involved
terward there was that
escape
they transferred
it,
and
af-
not to resign
behave
even when
like a
I
was
368
wasting away with hunger

ideas for escaping,
or aggressive.
won
was dying of sorrow. Sorrow.
How many
through
my
And how
solitude.
overcome by
my mind
given birth to in
lives I've
book of poems that
also told about that in the
overcome
trying to
new
mood
always thought up
the Viareggio Prize. Look, solitude can be
imagination.
life
strikes.
always appeared to be in a good
Even when
...
Solitude.
and
intensely
each
lived
imagination.
O.F.:
But once, Alekos, you did succeed
A. P.:
Yes, with George Morakis,
who
in escaping.
because of
all
me
has been
sentenced to sixteen years in prison and can't even benefit
from
a
this
amnesty since they consider him
young noncommissioned
me
spontaneously offered
Morakis was so amusing.
my hand
carrying in
we
got to the last door,
officer,
his
Oh, my escape with
help.
was dressed
bunch of
He was
a deserter.
George Morakis, and he

like a corporal
keys for
threw the keys
all
and was
the cells.
When
to the little soldier
on
"Open the door, goldbrick." The soldier didn't

recognize me. He snapped to attention, opened the door for
us, and I even told him not to make a lot of noise asking whogoes-there in case we came back. You understand, there was
always the possibility of not being able to make it and of having to sneak back in if we didn't succeed in getting over the
guard and
said,
wall.
The
last
door
out of there
all
let
us out
we had
to
the wall was very high and
my
on the actual
military field
do was climb the
wall.
to get
Even though
surmounted by barbed
wire.
bent
Then
he reached down, I grabbed his arms, and away we went. Out
for a stroll through the streets of Athens. Too bad they caught
us, four days later. They arrested me in the house of a traitor,
Takis Patitsas. He had had connections with Greek Resistance,
this Patitsas, since 1967. He worked in a travel agency and had
supplied us with a certain number of stolen passports. They
had wanted to know about him too when they tortured me
over, Morakis got
on
shoulders and got up the wall.
during the interrogation, and naturally
was never
Patitsas
After
meant
my
hadn't talked. In
fact,
arrested.
escape
to stay there a
went
to his
house
full
of
few days. Just long enough
trust.
only
to get infor-
369
my comrades in my Greek
me with hugs and kisses, but
mation and make contact with
He
Resistance group.
the next day he
received
the house where
left
reappeared after forty-eight hours.
We
was
and only
his guest
we
talked,
ate together,
saying he was going to work. Instead
and next morning he
left,
he didn't go
He went to the police station and handed

how they caught us, by opening the door
to
work.
over the keys. That's
with
As
Patitsas' keys.
About seventeen
you don't mind.
O.F.: Yes, let's talk
he got
a reward
about something
five
hundred drachmas.
about something
Let's talk
dollars.
else.
Let's talk
else,
if
about Papado-
poulos.
Papadopoulos seriously. He's a type

I can't take this
you can't understand unless you examine his history. A history
that shows right away how dishonest, mentally sick, and what
a liar he is. For six years he's told nothing but lies, and how
A. P.: Listen,
many times, to vomit out my

You know, those letters that
disgust,
each one
a criminal,
called
him comical,
and mentally
gerating or carried
sick.
wrote to
tell
him
so!
gave to the prison director. In
a ridiculous clown, a buffoon,
And
away by anger.
don't think that
was exag-
All these things are
abun-
dantly clear from his biography.
He was
the
captain
who
participated
the
in
1951 coup
dtat, which failed however, with the brigantines Cristeas and

Tabularis.
And he who,
commission
which they tried
the
When
that
to
as lieutenant colonel,
drew up the famous
falsify
the democratic
was secretary of
Pericles
the results of the
government ordered an
Plan by
1961 elections.
investigation of
the Pericles Plan, that idiot replies that he didn't
know Greek
syntax and so couldn't have been the one responsible. You'll

find this information in official
in all
It's
of his
Greek newspapers
documents, published besides
the time.
who at the beginning of 1963 carried out a sabotage

own department and then personally tortured some of
he
his soldiers to get

tage.
at
them
He was head
logical Warfare,
to confess that
it
was communist sabo-
of the Office of Propaganda and Psycho-
and e\eryone knows he was the one who
or-
dered the murder of Polycarpos Georghadjis. Everyone knows
he was the one behind that incident where they
tried
to
370
murder
me
That
in prison.
can also judge from the
man
he's a ridiculous
fact that he's
anyway, you
extended the amnesty
isn't
O.F.
it
tantamount
Yes, but
it
to
to
And
the torturers. Isn't that an admission that torture existed?
encouraging more torture?
doesn't keep
him from being
power and staying
in
there.
A. P.: Listen, if
you're saying that
power,
ity to stay in
in
Rome
saw
let
all this
me make
the Italians had
was
was astonished and wondered
managed
with such a ridiculous
And
When
with Mussolini speaking to the crowd
a film
from the Palazzo Venezia.
how
doesn't exclude his capac-
an observation.
up
to put
man who
for so
many
years
spoke in such a ridiculous
was a powerful dictator and in his way

power and keeping it keep anyone from
being ridiculous? The difference between Papadopoulos and
Mussolini is that, for better or worse, Mussolini had popular
support. Papadopoulos doesn't even have that. His power is
way.
capable.
yet Mussolini
Does
stealing
based on the junta and nothing
who
namely on ten
else,
control the entire army. He's the
little
officers
leader of a
little
clique.
Moreover he
like
Franco,
acts in
who
bad
says, "I
am
faith.
He
doesn't present himself
the master. Period."
He
presents
himself by talking about revolution and then even about de-
mocracy. Democracy! What the hell kind of democracy is a

democracy where one goes up for election alone, without even
having the decency to invent an opponent or an opposition?
You can say: But you're out of prison because of Papadopoulos'
amnesty.
But don't you understand that
mockery? Don't you understand that behind

there's a
O.F.:
hidden stratagem
What do you
A. P.: I've
to
it's
trick,
this action
of his
extend the tyranny?
think of Constantine, Alekos?
always been a republican, of course, and I'm certainly not
the one to feel sorry about Constantine. Besides, Constantine
created the conditions for having himself thrown out of the
country
But
when he
forced Papandreou to resign, in July 1965.
don't care to emphasize whether
not. I'm only interested to see
if
like
Constantine or
Constantine can be useful
the struggle against the junta. Perhaps he can. Because

stantine
may
still
have some influence
in
Con-
in certain sections of
among
the army, especially
371
the officers. Perhaps, the situation
the problem of him, at the
And we can't deal with

moment. By now he's an enemy of
And
has no other choice but to remain
being what
the junta.
we
is,
it
can't ignore him.
now he
by
an enemy of the junta.
you don't supjx)se that Papadopoulos
O.F.: Alekos, but
A. P.:
Of course
And
is
way
now. They're joining
a reality. People are joining in
The
dictatorship unanimity.
world
political
all
out
mistake because the resistance in
that's his
Greece
for
you
But he doesn't think that he's capable of being
not.
overthrown.
let
him?
so as to overthrow
is
task
it,
albeit in a passive
instance, by refusing the
in, for
assumed by the whole Greek
that of following the popular will.
And
that
shows up by not helping Papadopoulos to legalize his

regime. I'm sure no resjjectable politician in Greece will par-
task
You must understand that

we can overthrow him. Papadopoulos didn't come out of a
civil war like Franco
he came out of a coup dtat. When
Franco came to power, his opponents were decimated. Deticipate in the farce of the elections.
The
feated.
Here
it's
last
democrats
different.
has been decimated.
end
The
Who
knows!
logic.
But
Italians
And
But
Maybe
made
Attica,
about
power.
to
politics
to
go to sleep as the Italian
much
But what
A. P.:
I'm not a communist,
your
awaken them.
to
information, and even
were
to
when
has
history,
the
say
make
themselves be seduced by Mussolini,
let
He
existed,
and Papadopoulos wouldn't
controlled only a few units in

in
all
Macedonia. And when you
political ideology,
if
that's
reject
Alekos?
what you want
dogmas. Wherever
to
know.
never
dogma,
me. Whether
there's
no freedom, and so dogmas aren't for

dogmas or sociopolitical ones. Having said that,
hard for me to make a distinction and say that I belong to
there's
religious
of
talk
O.F.:
could be, since
No one
will take for the dictatorship to
lack realism,
and some units
is
it
history? If logic
wouldn't have
come
all
doesn't take
it
I
and Hitler wouldn't have

have
El Campesino.
you're going to talk about logic,
if
logic ever
like
people always tend to sleep, to resign them-
to accept.
selves,
Spain
Greek people not
for the
is
people did.
left
Here no one has been defeated.
it's
this
372
or that other ideology.
our times
when
normal,
it's
you I'm
tell
a socialist
in
say inevitable, to be a socialist. But
about socialism, I'm talking about
talk
can only
I'd
socialism
applied in a regime of total freedom. Social justice can't exist

if
freedom doesn't
For me, the two concepts are con-
exist.
nected.
And
this
the kind of politics
is
I'd like to participate in,
Greece only had democracy. This

always attracted me. Oh,
try,
really think I'd
now and what
And
better. In
to
men who
so far isn't politics

yes,
but
only a
flirta-
like love
much
it's
And
my
that's
trouble.
You
see, there
are capable of politics only in time of war, that
is
dramatic circumstances, and there are others capable of
politics
only in time of peace, that
Paradoxically,
belong
understand that ever since the

neither
will
we
mustn't,
my
nor
until the
we
in
normal circumstances.
prefer Cavour.
moment
But you must
the junta took power,
comrades have been making
politics.
is
the
you say
Nor
overthrown.
We
we have an operating force. And

resistance, namely the struggle.
this
moment when
the junta
is
can't, unless
operating force
Alekos,
is
to the latter. All things considered, be-
tween Garibaldi and Cavour
O.F.:
flirt,
democratic coun-
be in politics becomes as beautiful as
to
be in love with love.
are
in
democracy
to a
Because what I'm doing
politics.
like to
if
the kind of politics that's
belonged
go into
done
I've
tion with politics.
if
is
that paradoxically
you belong
the Ca-
to
vourians. Truly paradoxically, since as a political figure you
became famous through

tempt. Alekos, do
a rather Garibaldian assassination at-
you ever curse the day you
made
that at-
tempt?
A. p.:
And
same reason for which I never feel any

would have been enough for me to say at
the trial that I repented, and they wouldn't have condemned
me to death. Instead I didn't say it, just as I don't say it now,
because I've never changed my mind. And I don't even think
Papadopoulos is guilty of high
I'll change it in the future.
treason and of many other crimes that in my country are
Never.
for the
repentance. Lx)ok,
it
punished with the death penalty.
and I'm not
mad
fanatic.
instruments of justice.
Both
When
didn't act like a
and
tyranny
is
my
mad
fanatic
comrades acted
imposed on
as
a people,
Alexandros Panagoulis
the duty of every citizen
to repent
to kill the tyrant.
is
and our struggle
373
are re-established in Greece.
There's no need
go on until justice and freedom
will
on
or rather we, have set out
I,
road on which there's no turning back.

O.F.:
A. P.: It
me
know. Tell
was
about the attempt, Alekos.
down
a well-prepared attempt,
thought of everything.
to the last details.
had
have to open the electrical
would
switch of the two mines from a distance of about two hundred
myself.
had made them

The two mines were well placed.
They were two good mines. Each one contained five
kilos of
TNT
meters.
rial,
C-3.
and
and
a kilo
had placed them
sides of the
a half of
two
to the
would have to
road from Sounion to Athens.
bridge that Papadopoulos' car
little
cross going along the coastal
The
another explosive mate-
depth of one meter
at a
explosion was to expand in an arc of forty-five degrees and
open
chasm about two meters
a circular
in diameter.
single
explosion would have been enough, the explosion of a single
mine to hit
moment.
But
the target, provided the car went by at the right
was the
it
fault of the
comrade who had put
it
in the
trunk of the car that the fuse turned out to be so tangled and
knotted that
The
fact
is
all
it
tance, because
The
could salvage of
it
was some
forty meters.
wasn't possible to open the switch at that disI
wouldn't have had any place
only place where
to
hide myself.
could have hidden was between eight
and ten meters from the bridge.
had
to try just the
same.
could see right away the drawbacks and dangers of such a position.
The most
very well.
serious was that
had made many
chosen the position

that
when
hidden by
at
trials,
couldn't see the highway
before the attempt, and had
two hundred meters because
the car was between

a billboard.
At that
noted
I'd
me and the bridge, saw half

moment would have opened
I
it
the switch. Instead from the
new
view of the highway, so
couldn't perceive the car at the
moment when
back of
should have to
this position
position
didn't have a
The
light the fuse.
was that from there
it
other draw-
would be almost
impossible to get away. Along the highway,

hundred meters, there was a patrolman. And
eral police cars. Besides
good
ever\'
fifty
or a
farther on, sev-
one not more than ten meters away.
374
O.F.:
So you would have had
A. P.:
Exactly.
some
And
three
from
Then
swam under
came up
hadn't seen me jump
all sides
me, hidden
for
could see right away that
the same.
all
it
right in the water.
thirty meters.
from there?
almost impossible but impossible.
cided to go through with
that they
in the sea
hundred meters away.
to escape wasn't just
jumped
jump
to
motorboat was waiting
a fast
for air.
de-
the fuse and
lit
water for twenty or
realized immediately
in the sea.
Cops were running
toward the point of the explosion.
swam
little
more and then came out of the water to try to get to the motorboat across the rocks and so more quickly. I was running
bent over, with my head down. And all of a sudden I saw the
motorboat leaving. The plan stipulated that it would wait for
me five minutes, no more. Still I didn't despair.
The
plan had an alternative:
able to come, or else

I
was
eral cars that
my
too
the motorboat hadn't been
if
to leave
would wait
all
Of
had on was
much
me
for
without picking
me
up,
course
Two
hid inside a
me
became
little
cave and stayed
hours during which the coastal and
military police kept looking for
those two hours that
it
after
would have been able to

would be uncomfortable,
I
a pair of bathing trunks, but that wasn't
of a problem. So
there for two hours.
and
in different places,
hiding place in the dark,
reach one of them.

since
had
hide in the rocks until late that night. There were sev-
to
leaving
if it
all
over.
optimistic
And
it
was during
so far they hadn't
found me, and so they'd never find me.
Then something happened

above the cave where
officer.
heard him
that
away. In a
asking me,
got
away
split
"Who
me
fate.
all
Where
Just
a police
take a look
the other side."
side,
he
back-
fell
me
me. He saw
right
on top of me. Hitting me,
are the others?

talk!"
And
Who
blows
was
.
it
and
pretended to be a mute and didn't answer
their questions.
and shoved
call
let's
him on
toward the other
are you?
for
right in front of
fell
motorboat? Talk,
more blows ...

any of
starting
second they were
in the
can only
"He's not here,
say,
behind those bushes and then look
But just as he was

ward and ... he
was hiding, there was standing
in a car
and
Then
.
they took
me up
to the road
O.F.:
Don't go on,
A. P.:
Why?
if
you don't want
In the car,
was about
375
That's enough.
to.
to say, there
was the minister of
pubhc security. General Zevelekos, and Colonel Ladas. A cop

who'd known me for some time exclaimed, "It's Panagoulis!"
So the
George
officers
thought
my
was
whom
Panagoulis,
Captain
brother George.
been
they'd
looking
since
for
"We've got you. Captain!

Now we're going to kill you!" It would take another thirty
hours before they realized their mistake. During those thirty
hours they used on me all the most brutal, most infamous interrogation methods. They said to me, "We've arrested Alex-
August 1967. They
started yelling,
And
ander, in Salonika!
naturally,
didn't
now Alexander
right
more than you!" They
me
also asked
know. They asked me,
General Anghelis,
who
suffering even
whom,
officers
for instance,
about
commander in chief
know if he was involved
out. They were carried
time was
at that
They wanted
of the armed forces.
is
about
to
in the plot and tortured me

away by panic and did awful things to me, but their interrogathey were hysterical. When
tion was anything but systematic
they finally understood that I was not George but Alexander,
they became so ferocious they doubled the tortures.
to find
O.F.:
Don't think about
it
say so, but that's the
symbol
to
whom
any more, Alekos. Maybe
way
had
it
it's
dreadful to
Because today you're a
to be.
even your enemies look with admiration and
respect.
A. P.:
You sound
to
me
symbol and
It
disturbs
who
me.
I've
And
when
swear to you, I'm only able

I
think that
same detachment with which
tence. But, even putting

It's
you do, Alekos?"

to disappoint
it
unpleasant.
I
that way,
When
feel like fainting.
helps as
it
And
death sentence would have helped.
popularity.
embarrasses me.
this popularity
already told you: I'm not the only Greek
suffered in prison.
ate this popularity
the
"Alekos, you're a
say,
don't feel like a hero. I'm not a
don't feel like a symbol. I'm not a leader and
don't want to be a leader.
who
ones
like the
hero!" I'm not a hero and
so
accepted
it's
you
to toler-
much
look on
my
as
it
my
with
death sen-
a very uncomfortable
all
ask
me "What
What should
you? I'm so afraid of disappointing
do
will
so as not
all
of you
37^
who
see so
not seeing
in
me
me
things in me!
Oh,
as a hero! If only
only you could succeed

you could succeed in seeing
if
only a man!
O.F.: Alekos,
A. p.:
many
in
what does
means
it
mean
to
be a
man?
It means to believe
means to love without allowing love to become an anchor. It means to struggle. And to win. Look,
more or less what Kipling says in that poem entitled "If." And
for you, what is a man?
It
in
to
have courage,
humanity.
O.F.: I'd say that a
to
have dignity.
It
man
Athens, September 1973
is
what you
are, Alekos.
iMtimte
Ban
studies
of iDtcgr ai
765 ABiibury
Francisco, CA 94117
/^4c^x7fS3-6100
^-'^
DATE LOANED
GAYLORD
3563
PRINTEOINU.S.A.
"One of the most gifted
and determined
"Fallaci infiltrates,
life
interviewers olive.
."*
.
goes behind the lines and sketches from

is a splendid example of that most
[The book]
self-effacing of
all arts
the art of the interview/'
-Washington
Post
"Fallaci brings a formidable amount of background

knowledge to each interview. She knows her history."
-Chicago Tribune
"If
youVe been wondering why the world
you
will
get
is
such a mess,
many enlightening answers from these classic

- Playboy*
the people who run it."
self-portraits of
sensational collection of Fallaci's championship

It's often devastating, never less
bouts with the great
"A
truly
than
$4.95
totally
absorbing."
-Cosmopolitan
ISBN 0-395-25223-7
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"the greatest political interviewer

modern times" -Roinng stone

Digitized by the Internet Archive

THE USELESS SEX

HOUGHTON MIFFLIN COMPANY BOSTON

part of this work may be reproany form by any means, electronic

All rights reserved.

permission in writing from the publisher.

Interview with history.

Reprint of the ed. published by Liveright,

not like power

Nguyen Van Thieu

This book does not claim

be anything but what

does not want to promise anything more than

direct witness to fourteen poHtical figures of

be considered as a simple collection of interviews for stu-

dents of power and antipower.

myself to be, nor

stand (in fact

though the matter

personally and were one on which

did not go to these fourteen people with the

always take one, based on a specific moral choice).

the anatomist or the imperturbable reporter.

thousand questions that before assailing them

were assailing me, and with the hope of understanding

depend on universal laws or on

those people determine our

few individuals and

will ever resolve.

know, which no one has resolved and no

also an old trap in

since any answer carries within

not by chance that

compromise and main-

made by everyone and by

because they were

are able to interpret that

delude themselves about the absurd tragedy of

a few, that the

are led rather to

Cleopatra's nose had been shorter

what Bertrand Russell feared when he wrote,

led rather to fear

the populations of the world are to live or die rests with-

the decisions of Khrushchev,

Tse-tung and Mr. John Foster

Dulles, not with ordinary mortals like ourselves.

they say 'Die',

cannot exclude the idea that our existence

decided by a few people, by their dreams and caprices, their

we become? Impotent herds in

by the class struggle: history-is-made-by-peoples-through-

But you soon

realize that everyday reality belies

you soon object that without Marx Marxism

or had not written

Roe would have written it). And

and kill tyrants are few.

forth ideas, discoveries, revolutions, wars,

more discouraged, you

more enlightened, more en-