Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors: Understanding the Debate of

LGBT+ persons in the United Methodist Church

Episode 2: The Pastors

SARAH ARNEY (SA): Hello! This is Sarah Arney, and youre listening to Open Hearts, Open
Minds, Open Doors: Understanding the Debate over the role of LGBT+ persons in the United
Methodist Church. In the previous episode, we reviewed the 2016 General Conference. This
episode focuses on the stories of twelve North Carolina pastors. What follows are excerpts from
these interviews and analysis that asks what life experiences are influential in this debate, and
where the true conflicts lie.

SA: But first I think introductions are in order

SA: So, first, would you like to say your name, your occupation, and a bit about yourself?
REV. LISA YEBUAH (LY): So my name is Lisa Yebuah.
REV. TOM NEWMAN (TN): Im Tom Newman
REV. BEN WILLIAMS (BW): So my name is Ben Williams
REV. LAURA LEDFORD (LL): My name is Laura Fine Ledford
REV. THOMAS SIMPSON (TS): I am Thomas Simpson
REV. BOB BERGLAND (BB): My name is Bob Bergland
REV. CHERYL LAWRENCE (CL): Cheryl Lawrence
REV. JEFF NASH (JN): Alright, so my name is Jeff Nash
REV. PAUL STALLSWORTH (PS): Paul Stallsworth

SA: As well as three other pastors--Reverend Allen Bingham, and two other pastors who wished
to remain anonymous. The first wished to be named Reverend Bocephus and the second I will
refer to as Reverend Anne.

SA: Thank you to all of them for their participation in this research. The group was comprised of
four female and eight male participants, eleven white and one African American participant. If
forced to categorize them, I would call three progressive, two traditionalist, and seven
moderates.

SA: Although their backgrounds vary, when asked about the debate or their view of LGBT+
persons in their earlier years, the answer is nearly unanimous. Anonymous Pastor Bocephus, a
white pastor among one of the younger respondents, described the majority experience,

REV. BOCEPHUS (B): Growing up I don't remember ever hearing something explicitly against
the practice or the life of homosexuals. You know that there must've been something, because
somewhere in there I got the impression that it was wrong. So it's a weird, somehow it was
there but I don't remember ever hearing it explicitly stated.

SA: This experience complicates the debate in two ways. On the one hand, you have silence.
Silence can happen because it is the experience of the majority. For example, no one talks
about how weird it is that there are so many men in Congress when the US is half female
because men have historically exercised greater power in, well everything. But silence can also
stifle a minority experience. For example, the way textbooks used to, and to an extent still do,
gloss over the oppression of Native Americans as a part of the foundation of the United States.
In one case, the experience isnt something you think about and in the other, something youd
rather not think about. LGBT+ Christians attempt to break the silence around human sexuality in
the church, but in doing so they make their sexual or gender identity the most visible thing about
them, when the whole point is that their gender or sexuality shouldnt matter.

SA: The other complication from those early life experiences is a vague, negative concept of
LGBT+ identity. Nine of the twelve pastors describe learning early that LGBT+ identity was
something negative, four of which remember terms like gay or queer being used as insults.
LGBT+ persons were also understood to be less than the ideal of their gender, and probably
promiscuous.

SA: Here is Rev. Stallsworth, an experienced pastor from Whiteville, North Carolina describing
an early episode:

PS: And there were rumors of, particularly adults, or one adult in particular, who was an alleged
practicing homosexual. Very odd in the southwestern Kansas town where I grew up. That
particular man was not well respected by the boys that I grew up with. His name was used in
derision. And again the church said nothing. It wasn't an ideal situation, and when I look back on
this, it was shameful what those boys and young men were doing with regard to this man.

SA: What results are generations of Christians hearing negative stereotypes surrounding
LGBT+ identity while at the same time understanding sexuality as a topic not to be discussed or
challenged.The silent baggage pastors carry with them makes starting dialogue difficult. Rev.
Lawrence, mother and experienced pastor of 11 years, explains how she resolved such a
difficulty:

CL: That Bible study constantly got bogged down early on with people wanting to argue about it.
My solution was to say, You know, when we get to what Jesus said about homosexuality then
were going to discuss this, but until we get to that, were going to set it aside.. Well that was
me punting because Jesus didnt say anything about it, but they didnt know that so they agreed
to that and we stopped having these constant arguments about it.

SA: After Rev. Lawrence is Rev. Yebuah, a Ghanaian-American and daughter of a Methodist
pastor:

LY: To be honest its so hard to think about what that would look like. How do you make space
for all the nuance? How do you make space for all the stories? How do you give everyone a
chance to share their caveats, their howevers? It feels very tricky to do it well. Sometimes you
need to be a little sheepish like I dont want another screaming match but because, do we have
to do it in three parts where first people have to know how to first have conversation do you
couch it in worship? and would yes I think it's been hard to even imagine what does that look
like and how can we do that well.

SA: But before our heroes faced the practical question of human sexuality in the church, they
went through training and preparation. Every pastor I spoke to is an elder, which for our
purposes means they had to go to divinity school. It is in their years of college, divinity school,
and field education that most pastors describe finally hearing of the debate and forming crucial
theological understandings.

SA: Curiously few of these were academic: Rev. Williams, a graduate of Duke Divinity,
remembers his education:

BW: I don't remember it being a predominant kind of issue. I think thered be conversations here
and there. I certainly remember professors teaching us how to understand Scripture, a lens by
which to view Scripture to understand its context, its culture, when it was written, who was
written to. They gave us all of those tools and then we were to use those to look through all
kinds of social issues and how does the church respond and relate. That was my experience in
divinity school.

SA: A surprising majority of theological revelations came from people or organizations alongside
their education: Here I am talking to Rev. Yebuah about Sacred Worth a prayer group on Dukes
campus:
INTERVIEW AUDIO
SA: Can you describe Sacred Worth?
LY: Sure! At Duke, the Sacred Worth was typically friends, family members, individuals who
would consider themselves LGBTQ who had conversations together. It was a sense of like, we
too are made in the image of God. It was the first time Id ever heard that term and realized, oh,
its in the Discipline. It was one of the first seasons of my life where I started to realize, okay,
there are things that Im realizing that are jacking up my x+y=z formula around how I think
theologically about human sexuality. And realizing actually I have not been thinking theologically
about it. Ive just been told this is what you should believe and I was like, Okay, I cant tell you
why, but this is kind of what I believe about x, y, and z.

SA: Again Rev. Lawrence, another Duke Divinity grad, recalls her field education supervisor:

CL: So when he was at that church he had a a member who was dying of AIDS and that
members mother was also a member, and she came to him when he was the new pastor there
she said, I want to know how you feel about homosexuality right now. He said Well, you know
I think that as a church we have to be tolerant. She said, We are not as Christians called to be
tolerant. We are called to be compassionate and humble. He said, That changed my whole
thinking about subject. He did share that with me, and caused me to think, yeah, were called to
be compassionate and humble. So what does that look like when we talk about homosexuality?
SA: Rev. Stallsworth, who always loved reading the work of theologians, remembers the
beginning of his friendship with Richard John Neuhaus during his education:

PS: I took a summer school class at Princeton Theological Seminary. Richard John Neuhaus
was the professor who had just written a book entitled Freedom for Ministry. And at that point I
was captured. When I saw Richard in front of our class lecturing, leading, encouraging,
critiquing, I believe that I said yes to God. That was galvanizing to meNeuhaus might've been
the one who mentioned it first in the classroom as far as I was concerned. Of course Richard
was never married. He was a single man. It was very odd, Richard was associated with the anti-
Vietnam War movement, and he was associated with the Civil Rights Movement. When it came
to matters related to Christian morality on a personal level he was one who believed very much
in the Methodist understanding of holiness. He called people to the highest standard without
apology. I was always fascinated by that, and I think that's just what we pastors should do.

SA: Rev. Bingham considered anonymity before allowing me to include his identity in the
interview. Here he describes two episodes from different mentors which both explain and
challenge that hesitation:
INTERVIEW AUDIO
SA: Can you describe Jimmy Creech?

AB: Jimmy Creech was one of the first United Methodists who married a lesbian couple. He had
his orders pulled. We lost an effective pastor at that moment, and squelched the calling of
others who probably would have been just as effective. Not because of Jimmys orientation, but
because of Jimmys stand with others. Easily one of the most effective pastors Ive been around.
His first Sunday at Fairmont he greeted everybody at the back door when we came in. When we
came forward for Communion he called us each by name. No small thing...So Ive seen what
happens when you step out. And its probably made me more cautious, more careful

AB: To step back into seminary, I remember being in some angst about what it would be like for
me going from what is a pretty liberal place of education back to North Carolina to serve in
ministry. One of my professors had invited me over to their home...And as I was sharing my
concerns with her she said, Allen, what the hell do you have to worry about, youre a
heterosexual white male. And that was kind of one of those moments where youve got to go,
Yeah, what the hell am I worried about.

SA: After their vows and ordination into the United Methodist Church, the twelve pastors truly
began their trials with the debate.

SA: Before anything else, something must be said about culture, which runs through each
pastors history and their difficulties with the debate. This research presumes, and ten of twelve
pastors agreed, that culture can influence religious beliefs. Equally important is what pastors do
with this information. Rev. Stallsworth describes an important academic view,
PS: H. Richard Niebuhr wrote the book Christ and Culture. I don't know if you have ever run
across it, where Christ and culture are said to mix in various ways and means. It's Christ of
culture, Christ against culture, Christ and culture in paradox etc. etc.

SA: I didnt ask each pastor about Niebuhr, but his outline does help analyze a pastors
response when religion and culture meet. Some, like Rev. Stallsworth, are hopeful culture will
be transformed in Christ,

PS: My argument is that the body of Christ, church, is a culture. I think Christ works through
precisely that culture in, as we Methodists say and as more importantly Jesus said, making
disciples. So the churchs culture is what determines. The larger culture I think has an input and
an impact, no doubt about it, but what's formative is the church as culture.

SA: Rev. Newman, father and pastor of a church in Holly Springs, takes a slightly different
approach:

TN: Well if I was quoting Niebuhr, I would probably be Christ against culture. The culture I see
is moving in a direction opposite to biblical values, on a host of issues, not just one. Our
cultures become more secular and hostile towards religion, almost hostile towards religion in
any shape, form, or fashion.

SA: Rev. Bergland, an experienced pastor and three time General Conference delegate, seems
to believe Christ works through culture:

BB : Ive preached in Havana, Cuba...preaching Costa Rica. I've been in the church in South
Korea and stood there at the demilitarized zone as we watched what the Christian witness was
there in the face of that tension. I have been to South Africa and watched how the church works
there...I think culture has a tremendous impact, and I think the message of the Gospel and what
God is doing in human life remains the same. I think it's expressed a little differently in different
places. Sometimes, real different.

SA: Lastly, it seemed to me Rev. Yebuah expressed the view of Christ and culture as something
much more mysterious, especially to humans who are each stuck in their own cultural context:

LY: I think sometimes we don't, a lot of people underestimate just how deeply, how deeply, we
are shaped by cultural milieu. One of my professors used to say, Because you have a
bellybutton you know you're connected to people, and because youre connected to people
youre connected to stories. Every single cultural identity that you have comes with a certain
narrative, comes a certain language, comes with a certain lens, comes with a certain way of
understanding how you navigate the world well...We just think when you're in that culture, you
just think this is just the way it is, but you dont realize youre actually functioning or operating
out of something, until you are faced with another cultural, culture that may navigate the world
differently.
SA: Aside from the cultural lens, theology is the next great hurdle. And for many, theological
disagreement is really at the heart of this debate. What makes a sexual act or identity sinful?
What does the Bible actually say? And who gets to decide what interpretation is right?

The first question, what makes a sexual act or identity sinful is probably the easiest to answer.
The Book of Discipline bars same-sex marriage and pastors officiating them, as well as
ordination of (quote) self-avowed, practicing homosexuals mostly because of the definition of
marriage. The Discipline states, (quote) We affirm the sanctity of the marriage covenant that is
expressed in love, mutual support, personal commitment, and shared fidelity between a man
and a woman. We believe that Gods blessing rests upon such marriage, whether or not there
are children of the union. We reject social norms that assume different standards for women
than for men in marriage. We support laws in civil society that define marriage as the union of
one man and one woman. and later a phrase, sexual relations are affirmed only within the
covenant of monogamous, heterosexual marriage. (end quote)

So why is Biblical marriage between a man and a woman? The answer depends on what you
believe the holy purpose of marriage is. Rev. Thomas Simpson describes what he calls the
Biblical model of marriage,

TS: There are some things I think are very clear in Scripture, and some things are muddy in
Scripture and that kind of leaves it up to us. If were going to talk about the sexuality issue and
forgo all this other stuff, I think Scripture to me clearly mandates a biblical type of marriage. If
you look into Genesis where male and female were created and then he created Adam and Eve
and put them together to procreate...Does that mean that that other people can't have a
committed relationship where they love one another and all of that? No.... it's not, in my opinion,
it is not biblical.

SA: Rev. Newman describes marriage within the Gods natural design of the world,

TN: God created a natural order....And the further we step outside of God's natural order, the
more hardship we bring on ourselves...Germane to the question you asked, when it comes to
human sexuality, we are created man for woman, and woman for man...So with that in mind, the
original plan for us was to be natured heterosexual, and those who are not natured
heterosexual, outside the bonds of a traditional marriage, may need to consider lifelong
celibacy.

SA: Rev. Lawrence describes Duke Divinity professor Stanley Hauerwas slightly different view,

CL: So he believed that marriage, the purpose of marriage, was to provide a safe environment
to raise children. I would say that if you framed marriage within that in order to provide a safe
place to raise children that you would not exclude gays from that. He was very against the idea
that you fall in love and get married, because if that's the reason that you get married then when
you fall out of love that gives you a reason not to be married. So if you reframe marriage based
on it being safe place to raise children then you have to have a different conversation when you
talk about divorce.

SA: And Rev. Bocephus outlines still more nuance,

B: We talk about the rings in the marriage, but we don't actually affirm it as a sacrament, but we
talk about it in a sacramental way. So if that's what it is, it's a way of showing something external
for us that we can see and see inside God's personhood. Sexuality is included in that the
marriage is not about procreation, which is sometimes what folks can argue that, Oh well the
reason its wrong as you cant make babies, but the moment you do that you exclude anyone
who is heterosexual and just maybe biologically can't have children. So you don't want to say
that. But if you go with it's a sacrament, then you can affirm at once that sexuality in a marriage
covenant can reveal something deeper about God's love and grace in the way that maybe a
nonmarital sexuality might not. So the act itself doesn't matter if it's homosexual or heterosexual
for the fact that it's a sign. Just in the same way that you can use Kings Hawaiian bread and
grape juice or crackers and real wine. What it is isn't so much as important as what it can
convey.

SA: Depending on what pastors believe the holy purpose of marriage is, the gender and
sexuality limitations change. However, this fact gets much more complicated when we ask, what
did the Bible mean? Some people argue that the language condemning same sex practice is
unclear, and the words used to condemn same-sex relationships in the Bible dont refer to the
present-day definition of a same sex marriage. And even when Methodists do have a clear
picture of what the Bible says, like in marriage, they dont always follow it. Polygamy is present
in the Bible, as are arranged marriages, but most American Methodists condemn both these
practices, or at least dont consider them normal religious practice. So how do Methodists
decide what parts of the Bible they should follow closely and which they shouldnt? Who decides
that?

Those are a really hard questions, and the UMC doesnt have one definitive answer. However,
many pastors hold to what Rev. Stallsworth calls the churchs interpretation of Scripture:

PS: I think that we need to defend the churchs interpretation of Scripture, not my personal
interpretation or somebody else's personal interpretation...What General Conference does, at its
best, Sarah, is that it validates apostolic teaching...Methodists don't just pool personal opinions
in a kind of democratic soup and then come up with an answer. The commission that got
appointed at General Conference, if that commission does its work well, the orthodox on the
commission will concern themselves with apostolic teaching that is traceable back to the
apostles and certainly traceable back to Scripture and Jewish and Christian teaching...

SA: This view takes the dangers of Scriptural interpretation very seriously. The UMC places
human authority with General Conference, and traditionally, General Conference answers
theological questions through structured conversation that references the Bible and apostolic
teaching. Whatever comes out of those conversations ends up in the Book of Discipline. So the
Book of Discipline is what makes Methodists Methodist, not the Bible, and the Discipline can
change. Whats complicated about LGBT+ marriage and ordination is that it requires General
Conference to interpret the Bible differently, much more current and culturally located than they
ever have before. Only an interpretation rooted less in the UMCs traditional interpretation of
apostolic teaching and more with newer views can change the Book of Discipline. But
fundamentally changing Methodist interpretation is scary, and many people, like Rev.
Stallsworth, dont think the interpretation should change. The Book of Discipline already
provides strong foundations to govern Methodists. All pastors before they are ordained are
asked the following questions:

BB: Do you understand the discipline and the doctrine of the United Methodist Church? And we
say I do. And will you uphold it? I will. Thats a covenant that binds us together.

SA: This covenant between the Discipline and the clergy is partially what makes some pastors
so frustrated with this debate. Defying the Discipline by officiating a same-sex wedding or
ordaining an LGBT+ Christian basically says, The changing beliefs of some members of the
UMC are stronger than my vows and the authority of the General Conference.

Rev. Bergland experienced this frustration at General Conference discussing the doctrine about
standards for clergy,

BB: I said, The very first sentence says that the ordained clergy face all the pressures and
human frailties that are part of society, but we are expected to live to the highest ideal...I think to
erase all of that means we dont stand for anything. It means I can live my life any way I want to.
And I spoke against striking that entire paragraph, didn't say anything about the piece about
homosexuality. If we want take that sentence out I think that's okay, but we cannot take out the
part that says that we are called to live to the highest ideal.

SA: In the case of many pastors, like Rev. Williams, covenant to the church is a fundamental
part of what moderates their views in the debate:

BW: I look at it this way I entered into a covenant community with other elders and I entered
into covenant community with the church and I entered into serving under the authority of a
Bishop of the United Methodist Church. So as it currently stands, our Book of Discipline has this
sort of interesting tension where it talks about viewing all people of sacred worth regardless of
sexual orientation, and the same time has these limitations and some exclusions around who
can be ordained and issues around marriage. So I find myself honoring my commitment and my
vows to covenant community. Im not going violate the covenant commitments that Ive made.

SA: If covenant is a moderator for progressives, then personal relationships are moderators for
conservatives. Only one of six pastors who described having a family member or close
friendship with an LGBT+ person or ally advocates against same-sex marriage. Rev. Williams
describes his experience:
BW: This guy has been one of my closest friends. I don't care, Ive got to the point where, I
mean, I care more that youre my friend, I care more about the life that weve shared together all
of those things...He pulls me aside and he says, So, Im gay. Im like, okay. Hes like, No, I
mean like, I want to tell you that and I want you to hear that, and Im like I hear that, okay.
Hes like So does that hurt our friend and Im like No, youre one of my great friends, like,
no!. But, what it did was it suddenly made, and youve heard this refrain, it made the issue very
personal for me, very quickly. Then journeying with him as we both went through the ordination
process...the pain he went through and the life he had to live. For me to sit here and go, that
guy, I know he's phenomenally gifted. I know was called of God. He can preach circles around
anybody Ive ever met. I watch how he leads his congregation. That guy is called of God to
preach and teach, and what do I do with that?

SA: Rev. Bocephus also struggles with his vows as a pastor and his relationships with others,

B: I had lunch once with my uncle and he asked, If your church allowed Gay marriage would
you bless that marriage?. And here's a man who has seen me grow up, and was an uncle, and
to hear him say that and see the hurt in his eyes, and see that at that moment I wasn't his
nephew, I represented something that has hurt him and oppressed him. And that was kind of as
far as the conversation could go because all I could say is, Yeah, I would bless the marriage.
So on some levels the conversations have been brief, but only because there's a lot of depth
behind whatever the words are.

Rev. Simpson is the only pastor I spoke to who described having a friendship with an LGBT+
person and does not support same-sex marriage. His experience shows that a person who
supports the traditional model of marriage can still respect and maintain relationships with
LGBT+ Christians.

TS: I met a guy in college I was a good friends with who turned out to be gay. At the time it I
guess I made it a bigger deal than I thought it was. Over the years looking back at it, I regret
telling him, because basically I told him once I found out that we cant be friends anymore. I
didnt understand why, just that all of the sudden he had this stigma that was there. My
appropriate reaction as I had been taught was that I dont need to associate with this guy. Over
the years I'm sorry that I had done that, because I think we could have still been good friends
and come to recognize that just because someone has a certain preference to gender or
sexuality doesn't necessarily mean some of the things that socially we are conditioned or told
that this is going to mean.

SA: For all the care the UMC has taken to balance its language, the relationship between the
church and the LGBT+ community is damaged. Many LGBT+ Christians still feel rejected. Many
pastors feel they are being asked to call their family and friends incompatible with their religion.
Personal relationships with LGBT+ persons really bring out the gray in this debate; it is the
single most powerful force challenging the current language of the Discipline and the beliefs of
pastors. However, many pastors want to be sure Methodists considering change because of
their relationships are first grounded in theology. In other words, same-sex marriage and LGBT+
ordination should exist because Methodists believe it is the will of God, not because Methodists
think its fair or wish thats what the Bible said.

SA: The final problem pastors face is negotiating all these different aspects of culture, Scripture,
authority, covenant, and relationships--and where they draw the line when the stakes are
highest.

From Rev. Lawrence, who wants to understand the core reason of the debate:

CL: Why, why is this so essential? Is a greater essential that we are going to take Scripture
exactly like it's written? I think that's why I suspect that they would be anti-woman if they were
given the opportunity. Why those verses and not some of the others? Why are they so stuck
on you know, let's get to the bottom of this issue, of why were having these differences. Does
it have to do with the inerrancy of Scripture?

SA: From Rev. Yebuah, who laments the churchs inability to understand one anothers
differences:

LY: Ill just go ahead and pre-empt this by saying that was probably one of the most frustrating
things about, in some ways around General Conference, because General Conference doesnt
give you opportunity to delve into the nuance. Everything always has tothe only way people
know how to be heard is if theyre speaking from a side or from a particular opinion, or from their
own lens. You forget nuance. You forget that in some places it's hard to understand human
sexuality from a justice issue when you don't eat three meals a day, thats not a given.

SA: From Rev. Ledford, a General Conference delegate we met in the first episode of this
series, who feels unable to convey her faith:

LL: It is sometimes painful when people ask what I do and I say Im a United Methodist pastor.
The assumption, if they know anything about Methodism, is to automatically assume that I think
that they are incompatible Scripture if they happen to be LGBTQ...So I feel like everywhere I go
Im like, But, I, I, I, I, I love you, I love you. So living within this covenant community can be
painful for me right now, since it doesnt align with what I believe. So I would want to say to
somebody whos on the other side of it, how could we live together in this covenant community
and both feel like we are living with integrity?

SA: From Rev. Bingham, who is frustrated by the lack of commitment in the church:

AB: There are people who can mouth the words about talking to follow Jesus but their lives are
not invested in it. In all kinds of ways. Its not just about this issue, its about all kinds of issues. If
you know the giving pattern in most churches youll know that 20% of the people in the church
raise 80-90% of the funds. And then you have a lot of people who give five dollars a week and
think thats money, and think they made a sacrifice, and would call themselves Christian. But
theyre not committed. I really only want to have this conversation among committed people,
because for everybody else its just an opinion.
SA: From Rev. Bocephus, who wishes the church would talk about more aspects of human
sexuality than marriage:

B: I really do want to know why some folks can turn a blind eye to divorce or clear signs of
abuse of human sexuality. Rape being one of them, and that being a clear issue that our
society, like I said, the boys will be boys mentality and that there can be almost no
repercussions. I know that at several universities the girl will drop out before the perpetrator will,
but the church doesn't speak to that. So I don't understand how to me there are more clear
violations of somebody's human sexuality, why is that not a conversation? How do you turn a
blind eye? If this is a problem for you, what is wrong with a couple that has been committed to
one another for years and years and years, and even possibly has raised a child in a loving
family, when there are folks that do not get that, heterosexual or otherwise.

SA: Whats especially interesting is that when pastors talk about what is most grueling for them
in this debate, they dont discuss the worth of LGBT+ Christians or any official church doctrine.
They talk about the way Methodists speak to one another and how they feel personally harmed
by the debate.

Here comes the question all researchers must answer, so what? The third and final episode of
this podcast seeks to answer that question with more input from the pastors about what values
and practices helped them change the debate in their communities, and how their narratives
may be valuable to others. Again, my name is Sarah Arney, and youve been listening to Open
Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors: Understanding the Debate over the role of LGBT+ persons in
the United Methodist Church. Thank you.