House Hearing, 108TH Congress - International Child Abduction: The Absence of Rights of Abducted American Citizens in Saudi Arabia

INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION: THE AB-
SENCE OF RIGHTS OF ABDUCTED AMERICAN

CITIZENS IN SAUDI ARABIA
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND

WELLNESS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JULY 9, 2003
Serial No. 10867
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman
DAN BURTON, Indiana HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut TOM LANTOS, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
DOUG OSE, California DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
RON LEWIS, Kentucky DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
JO ANN DAVIS, Virginia JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California
ADAM H. PUTNAM, Florida STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
JOHN SULLIVAN, Oklahoma C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland
NATHAN DEAL, Georgia ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan Columbia
TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania JIM COOPER, Tennessee
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio CHRIS BELL, Texas
JOHN R. CARTER, Texas
WILLIAM J. JANKLOW, South Dakota BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee (Independent)
PETER SIRH, Staff Director

MELISSA WOJCIAK, Deputy Staff Director
ROB BORDEN, Parliamentarian
TERESA AUSTIN, Chief Clerk
PHILIP M. SCHILIRO, Minority Staff Director
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND WELLNESS

DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
CHRIS CANNON, Utah DIANE E. WATSON, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida (Independent)
ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
EX OFFICIO
TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
MARK WALKER, Staff Director
MINDI WALKER, Professional Staff Member and Clerk
TONY HAYWOOD, Minority Counsel
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
Hearing held on July 9, 2003 ................................................................................. 1
Statement of:
Dornier, Debbie, mother of Sarah Saga .......................................................... 70
Harty, Maura, Assistant Secretary, Consular Affairs, U.S. Department
of State ........................................................................................................... 21
Saga, Sarah, American citizen abducted to Saudi Arabia in 1986 ............... 59
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Burton, Hon. Dan, a Representative in Congress from the State of Indi-
ana:
Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 8
Prepared statement of Ms. Radwan, Saudi Embassy ............................ 46
Cummings, Hon. Elijah E., a Representative in Congress from the State
of Maryland, prepared statement of ............................................................ 2
Dornier, Debbie, mother of Sarah Saga, prepared statement of .................. 73
Harty, Maura, Assistant Secretary, Consular Affairs, U.S. Department
of State, prepared statement of ................................................................... 23
Maloney, Hon. Carolyn B., a Representative in Congress from the State
of New York, prepared statement of ........................................................... 13
Saga, Sarah, American citizen abducted to Saudi Arabia in 1986, pre-
pared statement of ........................................................................................ 51
Watson, Hon. Diane E., a Representative in Congress from the State
of California, prepared statement of ........................................................... 31
(III)
INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION: THE AB-
SENCE OF RIGHTS OF ABDUCTED AMER-
ICAN CITIZENS IN SAUDI ARABIA
WEDNESDAY, JULY 9, 2003
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND WELLNESS,
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:15 p.m., in room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dan Burton (chairman
of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Burton and Watson.
Also present: Representatives Ose and Maloney.
Staff present: Mark Walker, chief of staff; Mindi Walker, profes-
sional staff member and clerk; Nick Mutton, press secretary; Mary
Valentino, legislative director; Jonathan Dilley, legislative assist-
ant; Tiara Wuethrich, press assistant; Kelly Lorenz, Will
Drinkwater, Rob Rubenstein, and Sheri Strickler, staff assistants;
Allison Ket, Christopher Orlando, and Peter Hamilton, interns;
Tony Haywood, minority counsel; and Jean Gosa, minority assist-
ant clerk.
Mr. BURTON. We are waiting on a couple of other Members. We
just had these votes, and so bear with us for a couple minutes and
then we will get started.
The Committee on Government Reform will come to order. We
have other Members that will be coming in, but we want to get
started because Ms. Harty has limited time with us, and we want
to make sure that she has a chance to hear some of the other wit-
nesses before she leaves.
A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Human Rights
and Wellness comes to order. I ask unanimous consent that all
Members and witnesses written and opening statements be in-
cluded in the record. And without objection, so ordered.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Elijah E. Cummings follows:]
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Mr. BURTON. I ask unanimous consent that all articles, exhibits,

and the extraneous or tabular material referred to be included in
the record. And without objection, so ordered. And I ask that we
allow Members who are not members of this subcommittee to par-
ticipate in the hearing today and ask questions, because we have
a number of members who are on the full committee that are very
interested in this subject and would like to participate.
Before I start with my opening remarks, I would just like to say
that yesterday I was trying to get Ms. Harty here to testify on the
second panel. And there is a supposedly, I guess, a protocol which
says that members of the administration have to go first, and I
dont have any problem with that. The problem that I have is that
in some cases where you want to set the stage for government exec-
utive branch officials to respond to questions, in some cases I think
it is imperative that they hear the problem. Now, Ms. Harty has
agreed to see a copy of the tape because she is going to have to
leave about a quarter to 4, and she said that she would answer
questions that are relevant to issues that come up after she leaves.
And I appreciate that very much. But I would just like to say that
I was disappointed that Mr. Kelly, who is head of the legislative
affairs branch down at the State Department, was very short with
this committee, and he indicated that the last time we had a hear-
ing of this type that we beat up on the person from the State De-
partment who was testifying. I recall that hearing very well, and
we didnt beat up on him, but we did ask him many, many ques-
tions that he could not answer. And we asked him those questions
maybe several times.
Now, I wanted to explain that to Mr. Armitage, and I called him
two or three times yesterday, and he has been very helpful in the
past but he wouldnt return my phone calls. So we kind of were
stonewalled by the State Department yesterday, which I think is
very disappointing. I do appreciate Ms. Harty, as I said before,
being here, and she has been very helpful.
The one thing I think is very important for the State Department
to realize and the executive branch, and we have talked about this
under the Clinton administration, the Reagan administration, and
others, the Congress of the United States has oversight responsibil-
ities over the executive branch. It is our responsibility to make sure
that the executive branch and parts of the executive branch dont
screw up. And if they do, we have the obligation to bring them
down here to the Capitol and ask them questions. And sometimes
those questions are hard, and sometimes the appearance is that we
are grilling them. And maybe we do get a little tough sometimes,
and for that I will apologize. But it is our responsibility to do that.
And the State Department and the people who work there for the
most part, in fact for entirely, they are appointed officials. They do
not answer to the electorate. We do. And if something goes wrong
in this government, we, the elected officials who are responsible to
the constituents of this country, have the responsibility to bring the
appointed officials down here and ask them questions. They are not
a law unto themselves. They work for the people just like we do,
but we are answerable to the people. And for that reason we have
the responsibility to ask these questions.
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And I wanted to get that clarified today. And I hope, Ms. Harty,
when you go back, you will tell Mr. Armitage, for whom I have
great respect, because he has contacted me in the past and we have
worked well together on this and other issues on issues like this
in the past, tell him I am disappointed he didnt call me back yes-
terday, and I presume it is because Mr. Kelly told him what a
horses patootie I was. And so you tell Mr. Kelly also that. He is
a former Marine and I dont want to fight with him because he
could probably whip me, but tell him that he like everybody in the
executive branch is answerable to the Congress and our oversight
responsibilities, and we need to get along. OK? Thank you very
much.
Now I will go on with my opening statement.
While I was chairman of the full Committee on Government Re-
form I initiated an investigation into the illegal kidnappings of
American citizens to Saudi Arabia. There are several facts regard-
ing Saudi Arabian law and culture that make these international
child abduction cases noteworthy.
First, Saudi law gives Saudi men extraordinary power over their
wives and children. A Saudi man literally owns his wife and chil-
dren. As a result, the wife or child of a Saudi man may not leave
Saudi Arabia without his prior written permission. There have
been many cases in which adult female American citizens have
been unable to leave Saudi Arabia because they have not been able
to obtain the written permission of their male guardian, regardless
of their constitutionally guaranteed rights as American citizens.
Second, Saudi Arabia is not a signatory nation to the Hague Con-
vention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. The
Hague Convention treaty puts into place general guidelines regard-
ing how to handle international child abduction and international
custody disputes. Accordingly, there are no legal standards govern-
ing the return of kidnapped children from Saudi Arabia, and there
should be.
Our investigation from the last Congress led to numerous hear-
ings, several legislative proposals, and even a congressional delega-
tion to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in August 2002.
Although it has been nearly a year since that visit, I will never
forget the tears on the faces of American women who literally
risked their lives to come and talk to us. They were scared to
death. We had women tell us that they were afraid their husbands
would kill them, beat them half to death, or worse if they found
out they talked to American Congressmen. Women told me: Put us
in a box with our kids and put us in the belly of the plane, any-
thing to get us out of here because of whats going on. And those
are the kinds of things that you never forget, especially when you
leave them behind and you know there is not much you can do
about it. And I wont forget, also, how terrified they were they
might face death or physical torture if they were anywhere near
the U.S. Embassy because of their husbands worried about them
trying to get away.
These women live in a constant state of fear, and it is time that
the American government does something about it. And Ms. Harty
is going to talk to us about that today, and so will our witness who
has been able to get out of Saudi Arabia.
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Because of the attention that the issue of international child ab-

duction has received since we started this investigation, we have
seen some marked improvements in the way that these situations
are dealt with. Before, the custodial American parents were given
no hope that their sons and daughters would ever be returned to
them. Now we are starting to see some light at the end of the tun-
nel, although we have quite a ways to go before we completely
emerge from the darkness. And we had some people who had their
children kidnapped years ago, like my good friend back there, and
they would not fall under new rules and guidelines that have taken
place. And we are going to ask questions about them today and
how we can do something to allow them to visit the United States
and, if they choose to stay, stay here; if they choose to go back to
Saudi Arabia, to go back there.
Ms. Sarah Saga is here with us today and who until recently was
held in Saudi Arabia against her will since she was 5 years old,
and now she is 24. Just a month ago, she courageously risked her
life and fled to the U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia with her
two children, Ibrahim and Hanin. Ibrahim is 5 years old and her
daughter is Hanin, she is 3 years old.
After a 10-day stay in the U.S. consulate, Ms. Saga was able to
secure safe passage for herself back to the United States to be with
her mother, Ms. Debbie Dornier. Up until June 24th of this year,
they had not seen each other for nearly 20 years. She was kid-
napped, couldnt see her child for 20 years. Think about that, if you
have kids. Unfortunately, the reunion was bittersweet for Ms. Saga
who, in exchange for her freedom, had to leave behind her two chil-
dren in the custody of their Saudi national father.
Ms. Maura Harty, the Assistant Secretary of Consular Affairs for
the Department of State, is also here with us today. Both she and
Secretary of State Colin Powell have been working hard to bring
back the American citizens who are being held against their will.
I had the privilege of talking to Ms. Harty when she was about to
be appointed to this position, with her and Colin Powell, and she
assured me that she would do everything in her power to help
bring American children back and help with this problem. So far
she has been working in that direction, and we do appreciate that.
She is here to update this committee on how the Department of
State is handling these international child abduction cases.
Also in attendance is Mr. Stuart Verdery, the Assistant Secretary
of Policy for the Department of Homeland Security, and he is here
to observe our proceedings today, and we appreciate that. The rea-
son he is here is because we are going to be talking about visas
and what kind of pressure we can put on Saudis and their ex-
tended families who are participants in the kidnapping of Amer-
ican children and what we can do to put pressure on them to bring
these children back.
We are also kind of surprised but happy to have scheduled a rep-
resentative of the Saudi Embassy. Ms. Manal Radwan is scheduled
to talk with us about the Saudi policy on the abductions of Amer-
ican citizens to Saudi Arabia. Up until this point, we couldnt get
the Saudi Embassy to respond or participate, so we are glad that
she is here today, and we will listen with interest to her testimony
and have questions for her as well.
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Ms. Radwan will hopefully explain why the Saudi Government

has not been more helpful in assisting the United States in these
cases for years and years and years and what steps they plan to
take to ensure the safe return of American citizens who wish to
leave Saudi Arabia. We are also very interested to talk with her
about the possibility of Saudi Arabia becoming a signatory nation
to the Hague Convention, and we think that would be a step in the
right direction to prove that the Saudi Government wants to keep
their commitment to resolving these cases.
The solution is clear. It is imperative for the U.S. Congress and
our Department of State to work together to bring the necessary
diplomatic and legal pressure to bear that will guarantee the safe
return of these U.S. citizens who are being held against their will.
It is also time for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to join the 21st
century and finally become a signatory nation to the Hague Con-
vention. I believe that if we can take these two important next
steps, we will be on our waya long way from the conclusion of
it, but we will be on our way to resolving many of these heart-
breaking international child abduction cases.
As many in the audience know now, this has been a high profile
issue in the media. Just this past 4th of July weekend, both 60
Minutes and the John Walsh Show reran segments showcasing the
investigation. And I would like to end my comments by showing a
2.5-minute excerpt from our previous hearings which will set the
stage for our hearing today, because I think it says in 2.5 minutes
what were up against and what these parents have to deal with.
With that, if you would roll the tape, we would appreciate it.
[Tape played.]
Mr. BURTON. That gives you the flavor of the hearing today.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Dan Burton follows:]
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Mr. BURTON. And before I go to our first witness, Ms. Harty,

Mrs. Maloney, do you have any comments you would like to make?
Ms. MALONEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I really want to
join many of my colleagues in congratulating you on your leader-
ship on this important issue, on holding numerous hearings, on leg-
islation that I have joined you on, and particularly going to Saudi
Arabia and meeting with these families. I would just like to put my
remarks in the record, but I want to really particularly thank
Sarah Saga and her mother Debbie Dornier, who will be testifying
today. And it is very difficult to speak on personal tragedies such
as those that they have experienced. And I would like permission
to place in the record an account that was in my home paper enti-
tled Saudi Hell. And she is quoted as saying, 11I can describe my
life in one word, hell. And it goes on with the story that she will
tell us about today.
I really feel that we need to take stronger measures. We need
more than an assurance that they will sign the Hague Treaty.
Saudi Arabia should be a signatory, but also using the tools that
we have to deny visas to families that participate in this type of
cruel treatment and their families.
I would add, Mr. Chairman, that the new Millennium Account
which is moving forward, which is a good initiative, it will
strengthen our foreign aid policies and they have a set of criteria,
and I feel strongly that this could be part of the criteria that we
add to the new Millennium Challenge bill, and that is how are
women treated in these foreign countries before they receive the
consideration, whether it is aid or visas, from the U.S. Govern-
ment.
We do have the power to make these changes, and I feel that you
have worked hard in trying to negotiate agreements, and they dont
seem to be listening. So I really feel that I would like to join you
in stiffer legislative laws denying visas, denying aid, possibly even
sanctions if countries will not release American citizens and that
we need to really look at the whole treatment of women within
countries before we provide the privileges that we provide through
access to our own country, through our aid, through our financial
and political and other programs that we place abroad.
But I congratulate you for your work on this. I request permis-
sion to put my full lengthy statement in the record.
This is wrong. It should be changed. And I look forward to this
hearing. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Carolyn B. Maloney follows:]
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Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Mrs. Maloney. And without objection,

your entire statement will be in the record.
Mr. Ose.
Mr. OSE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have but a few remarks.
I note here that the title of this hearing is focused on Saudi Arabia.
But just for the record, Saudi Arabia is not the only place where
this kind of behavior exists affecting American families. This is
hopefully but the most recent of hearings; and those other coun-
tries should also be subjected, if you will, to the kind of scrutiny
we are going to undertake today.
Mr. BURTON. Thank you.
Ms. Harty, we are now ready to hear your testimony and grill
you. We are kidding. Just ask you some questions. Would you
please rise so you can be sworn?
[Witness sworn.]
Mr. BURTON. Do you have an opening statement?
Ms. HARTY. I do, sir.
Mr. BURTON. Proceed.
STATEMENT OF MAURA HARTY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY,
CONSULAR AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Ms. HARTY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to be
here today to report on an issue that is one of the most important
matters before me and that engages me on a very personal level.
That is the protection of American children abducted or wrongfully
retained abroad by their noncustodial parents, and specifically chil-
dren abducted to or wrongfully retained in Saudi Arabia.
Before anything else, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that the U.S.
Congress has been extremely helpful to the Department in securing
the return of abducted and wrongfully retained children. You, Con-
gressman Burton, and many others have backed our efforts to re-
cover children. You have raised cases in your travels abroad where
you have had access to the highest levels of foreign leadership.
Your willingness to do so demonstrates convincingly to foreign gov-
ernments that the United States is totally committed to the return
of our most vulnerable citizens.
Since taking office last November, I have made two trips to
Saudi Arabia, both of them focused on the issue of international
parental child abduction and the protection of American citizens. I
will return to Saudi Arabia as often as necessary to ensure contin-
ued progress. And we have made some progress. Since January,
seven children abducted to or wrongfully retained in Saudi Arabia
are back in the United States. Three more are expected to return
shortly. An American mother and her five children, all residents of
Saudi Arabia, are also expected to return soon.
In keeping with Saudi Government commitments to us to facili-
tate parental visits to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, one mother
visited her daughter this spring and others plan to do so in the
coming months. And also in keeping with Saudi Government prom-
ises that American women will be allowed to leave the Kingdom de-
spite objections made by their male guardians, one American
woman was granted an exit permit and departed Saudi Arabia last
month; two other American women have been granted exit permits
and are free to leave Saudi Arabia when they choose. A third is
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scheduled to receive a permit this week and to depart shortly for

the United States. Two more American women have assurances
that, should they wish to leave, such permits will be granted imme-
diately. We will certainly followup on that should they wish to
leave.
We meet on a regular basis with Saudi representatives here in
Washington and in Riyadh to review cases based on left behind
parents requests and to seek systemic solutions. We have made
clear to the Government of Saudi Arabia that we will not be satis-
fied with anything less than the childrens return.
The Saudi Government has expressed its commitment to work
with us on this very important issue. We are now working to de-
velop common ground for a bilateral arrangement that could help
parents gain regular access to their children even as they pursue
the childrens return simultaneously. With the Saudi Government,
we are exploring preventive measures that will help avoid this
tragedy in the future, including information and other outreach ef-
forts. We have posted on our Web site an information sheet with
the implications of entering into a marriage with someone from a
country such as Saudi Arabia where Islamic Sharia law serves as
the basis for family law.
Ambassador Jordan and our colleagues at Saudi posts have
worked with dedication and determination to assist American par-
ents and their children. I doubt that anyone in this room does not
know of the pain of one young American mother in Saudi Arabia
who sought and received refuge in our consulate in Jeddah.
Ms. Sagas story illustrates the painful reality in these cases and
demonstrates how diligently we work to protect Americans abroad.
Unfortunately, it also displays the limits of our ability to deliver
what is always our goal, the ability of the U.S. citizen parent to
return to the United States with his or her children.
In Ms. Sagas case, we provided her immediate and unquestioned
protection when she needed it and the basic support she and her
children needed in a safe place to make the difficult decisions that
ultimately were hers to make. We will remain engaged on Ms.
Sagas case and in the cases of all American parents who need us
in these terribly difficult situations.
We have made progress, sir, but we recognize that there is still
very much more to be done. I want to assure you today that we
will never lose sight of the goal nor of the fact that so long as one
child is wrongfully retained or abducted abroad our job is in fact
incomplete.
As Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs, the protec-
tion of American citizens is my top priority bar none. I give special
emphasis to the protection of our children and particularly those
who are the victims of international parental child abduction or
wrongful retention. I appreciate the opportunity, Congressman, to
testify today, and I look forward to answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Harty follows:]
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Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Madam Secretary. You said that there
were seven children returned?
Ms. HARTY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BURTON. Do you have the names of those children?
Ms. HARTY. I do, sir. I checked this morning, actually, to be sure
and safe. I have them here, but we dont have Privacy Act waivers
for all of them.
Mr. BURTON. So you dont want to read them out here?
Ms. HARTY. I do not want to read them here now, sir, but I am
happy to give them to you right after this hearing if you would like.
Mr. BURTON. Well, let me ask you about some cases that we
Ms. HARTY. And if you would like, sir, I can actually go through
the circumstances of the cases without the names.
Mr. BURTON. Well, we will get to that in a minute because I am
sure that the Saudis are trying to put as good a face on this as
they possibly can. And they may have done some things that have
been beneficial to some people, but I want to ask about some cases
that we asked them about when we were over there that were not
resolved.
And Pat Roush is in the audience today. She has children. When
we went over there, her children were sent to Londonthey are
adults nowwith Saudi representatives as well as their Saudi hus-
bands. And after they were talked to by some of the media and
some people in the Embassy in London, they put on their hijabs
and sat in the back of the room and asked their husbands what
they should do. And so to say that they were free to express their
feelings when they were in London is erroneous. I think they were
under the control of those people. And it was very disconcerting to
me, because we went over there in part to see those two ladies and
they just seemed to go to London. They hadnt been out of the
country for years. They went to London at the same time we went
there on a vacation. And that is when they went to the Embassy.
So those are the kind of things that have happened with the Saudis
in the past and that is why we have questions about their sincer-
ity.
Let me ask you about Samiah Seramur. She had three children,
Safiah, Maha, and Faisal. They were abducted by her husband.
Maha is the only child that was able to escape with the assistance
of hired men last year, and she spoke to this committee in I think
our last hearing. What about her other kids, the other kids?
Ms. HARTY. As I understand it, sir, the parents are not talking
to one another right now. We tried when we were last in Saudi
Arabia to work to have the taking parent, the father, reach out in
some way. Each parent has a child right now. Neither of those chil-
dren is in a situation that is good for them.
Mr. BURTON. Well, let me just interrupt you. Maha was here and
I talked to her personally. There is no question. She said she was
living in hell over there, she was mistreated, and she wanted to get
out of there and she risked her life to do it and it was on 60 Min-
utes. The whole thing was, so I mean it is all documented. Her
brother and sister, she was afraid to wake them up because she
was afraid all three of them would get caught and she wouldnt be
able to get away, and so she left them behind. But she said both
her brother and sister want to get out of there, they want to come
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to America. They were abducted. And what I am asking is, obvi-

ously the father is not talking because he would not let the mother
talk to the children at all and he still wont. But to say that it is
a 50/50 issue just isnt the case.
Ms. HARTY. Im sorry, sir. If I implied it was a 50/50, it is not.
Mr. BURTON. Well, I dont want there to be any misunderstand-
ing. The young lady wanted to get away. She is here. She is 17
years old, or 16 years old right now, and she is tickled to death to
be here.
Mr. BURTON. And the other two want to get here. What about
them?
Ms. HARTY. Sir, we are going to continue pressing the Saudi Gov-
ernment on that case as in all other cases. We havent had success
on that one yet, although what we try to do in so very many of
these cases is to seek a way for the parents at least to commu-
nicate so that the children can speak to their parents. Communica-
tion is never a bad thing. We are not even at that point with this
case. Yes, we are very frustrated by it, sir, and not a day goes by
that we dont think about these cases. It is not a good situation,
it is not ideal, and we will not stop trying.
Mr. BURTON. We are going to hear in the next panel, and I hope
you are still here to hear it, that the young lady who was released
from the Saudi Government, by the Saudi Government to come to
the United States said that her father would kill her if he saw her.
And I talked to the Ambassador today, he was kind enough to come
by. And I have great respect for the Ambassador because I think
he has done more than any previous Ambassador to help this case.
But there is still a lot to be done. And he indicated that she went
to a meeting before she left with her father and her husband. Her
father and her husband werent there; I think the Ambassador was
misinformed. She said she was terrified of her father that he might
kill her. He has a visa to come to the United States; he works for
a company that does business in the United States, and she is
afraid for her life even here today. And her husband, she didnt
want to talk to him but somebody at the Embassy evidently made
a call to her and then handed the phone to her husband, and she
was forced to talk to him. But we will get into all that later.
So I just want to say that there is still some big, big problems
here.
Let me ask you about Debra Docekal. She was able to establish
contact with her children. She learned that both of them want to
return to the United States, but they are not able to do so. Have
you talked to anybody with that, in that family?
Ms. HARTY. Im sorry, sir. The last name again?
Mr. BURTON. Debra Docekal. D-O-C-E-K-A-L.
Ms. HARTY. Im sorry, sir. I dont have information on that case.
I will have to get back to you.
Mr. BURTON. OK. We will give you that one. How about Michael
Rives? His children Lilly and Sami were abducted.
Ms. HARTY. Yes, sir. I know them. I have visited them, actually.
Well, one thing I would like to say about that case, sir, is we are
trying very, very hard. Part of the reason for the visit to see the
children was to ensure that they were at least well, healthy, phys-
29
ically being well taken care of. And while we were there, we had
a very interestingI had a very interesting conversation with the
taking parents brother. His visa has been taken away. We took his
visa away as an aider and abetter, as somebody who was support-
ing the ability of the taking parent to have the children outside of
the United States. And it was the first time that I had met some-
body who actually felt the pinch of a new tool that Congress gave
us. And so it was a good moment and an opportunity to explain
that visa would never be forthcoming until those children came
home. We made thatI made that statement very clearly to him
at that time, to the taking parent as well. I understand that they
understand that now, and they have a decision to make. But that
is a pressure point that we used, we used well. We hope it will bear
fruit.
Mr. BURTON. I think that is a step in the right direction.
Mr. BURTON. We are introducing legislation that would mandate
that people in the extended family of the kidnapped children would
not be able to come to the United States until that was changed,
until the children were released.
Ms. HARTY. If I might, sir, say something about that. We were
going toin fact, I was going to raise that with you today, that as
part of our authorization bill for 2004 we included a proposed
amendment to that section of the Immigration and Nationality Act
212(a)(10)(C) and we were hoping to get your support on that so
thatwe would love your support on that. It is a very useful tool.
The more that we can do, the more tools we have, the more pres-
sure points that we can find, the better. Actually, in the anteroom
just before the hearing we began to have that conversation with
Ms. Saga and Mrs. Dornier, and talk a little bit about that. It is
a very, very useful thing to have.
Mr. BURTON. But it is mandated if there is a kidnapped child,
that the visas be revoked or not, they cant get a visa?
Ms. HARTY. Not mandated per se, sir. It gives us the right and
ability to do it.
Mr. BURTON. Gives the State Department the discretion?
Ms. HARTY. Yeah. But want to use it. Im here to tell you we
want to use it. There may be a case
Mr. BURTON. I believe you will, but your successors might not.
Ms. HARTY. The reason I say, there may be a case from time to
time where parents dont want us to take a particular step one way
or another because they might still be in conversation; that might
in fact be a step too far in a case where they may reconcile at some
point. And so the discretion to use it is somewhat useful to us. But
there is no way that I want to have a tool out there and not use
it if it is going to help us get the job done.
Mr. BURTON. OK. I have talked long enough here. Let me yield
to my colleagues. And I have some more questions for you on these
other families. I have a whole bunch of those that I want to go
through.
Ms. Watson.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would like to
make an opening statement to frame my concerns.
30
I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, not for just calling this hear-
ing, but for your consistent dedication to the issue. Last time I
checked, the year was 2003, and yet in Saudi Arabia women are
still treated as though they live in the Middle Ages.
Here in the American Press, we read about the most tragic sto-
ries such as the fire at the girls school where girls were trapped
inside by religious police as the building burned around them. Or
the harrowing escapes of Dria Davis and Maha Seramur from
Saudi captivity. But the greater tragedy is the systematic and pro-
found discrimination and mistreatment women suffer each day and
every day in Saudi Arabia.
This is a tragedy and a shame for the Saudis. But the shame for
the United States is that we continue to foster a close relationship
with a country that not only abuses its own citizens, but abuses
American citizens as well. So, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you
for your commitment to solving this problem. And in the short time
I have been here in Congress, I have sat through a number of hear-
ings about the awful way American citizens have been treated in
Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Governments complicity in these
crimes.
I have signed on to and written my own letters to the Saudi and
the American governments regarding this issue. So far, I recall
none of the responses I have received from either government ade-
quate. The Saudi Government in particular likes to tell us that
these women are there by choice. But as I have said before, the re-
ality is that in Saudi Arabia for women choice simply does not
exist.
I hope in the hearing with the panelists that we hear from in our
own government about what steps they plan to take to end the kid-
napping and mistreatment of Americans in Saudi Arabia and to
improve the lot of women throughout the Saudi society.
Our nations, the United States and Saudi Arabia, are bound by
shared strategic imperatives, and I dont question the value of that
relationship. But what concerns me are the moral imperatives that
are pressing on this relationship.
I would like to repeat a message I have sought to send before to
the Saudis, apparently in vain: We are not here to lecture to Saudi
Arabia, but we are here to send a clear unmistakable message to
the Saudi Government. No matter who is in charge in Washington,
DC, the American people cannot tolerate a relationship that goes
against the principles on which our Nation is founded. If the Saudi
Government does not solve its problems with providing basic
human rights to half of its population, women, our strategic rela-
tionship will be in serious danger.
So that is the context in which I will be raising issues today. And
I would like the panelist to explain to us what we can do to assist
in solving the problem. Now, there is a bill, Mr. Chairman, that
you do have. And if it is not complete, I hope you can tell us what
we need to do to give you the tools that you need when you are
dealing with this government, and I am sure we will be happy to
assist you. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Diane E. Watson follows:]
31
32
33
34
35
36
Mr. BURTON. Do you have any questions you would like to ask
at this time, Ms. Watson?
Ms. WATSON. Well, my question was incorporated in my state-
ment, my last statement. And that is, what can we do to assist
you? And is the bill that has been sponsored by the Chair com-
plete? If not, just let us know during the hearing what we might
do.
Ms. HARTY. Well, I thank you very much for that. As I have al-
ready shamelessly plunged into requests for things that might be
of assistance to us, the language that would expand section
212(a)(10)(C) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, would be
very, very, very useful to us. We would appreciate your support on
that, and I am actually quite certain that we have it, sir.
I would like to take a rain check on the second thing that we are
looking at now. It was in 1988 the International Child Abduction
Remedies Act was passed [ICARA], which served as the implement-
ing legislation for the Hague Convention, the Hague Abduction
Convention in the United States. We are coming up on 15 years of
the anniversary of ICARA, and so what I am doing in the early fall
is pulling together a group of interested people to discuss ICARA
a little bit and see if there are any changes in fact to that imple-
menting legislation that might be useful. So we would welcome
input. And then in fact when we come up with suggestions, if there
are ways for change, I would like to take a rain check on the offer
of assistance now until we look thoroughly at that and see if there
are new things and new ways that we can build on that.
A third thing that I would like to ask is, and that needs no en-
couragement by your presence here today, and that is that it is in-
valuable to us, as I alluded to in my opening statement. Your par-
ticipation in these cases is invaluable to us. Your raising them with
Ambassadors who you meet in this town as well as on your foreign
trips gives us an impetus and an extra sense of unity as we go
overseas and show that it is the legislative and the executive
branches that are as serious as we can be about protecting our
most vulnerable citizens. It is very helpful as I have traveled to
Saudi Arabia twice, Syria, Lebanon, Guatemala, Mexico, next week
we will go to Austria, Sweden, and Germany, all discussing inter-
national parental child abduction issues. When I can use your
names, when I can use your energy and your commitment as exam-
ples, that it is not just Assistant Secretary Harty, it is not even
merely the State Department; it is the executive branch and it is
the legislative branch together that has an abiding issue and an
abiding interest in these issues.
To the degree that the chairman mentioned a little bit ago that
we are all appointed, certainly that is true. I am appointed. But I
am 23 years in the Foreign Service; I am a public servant as well.
And I think that what we do is a privilege and an honor, and we
are dedicated to leveraging everybodys energies, every person of
good wills energy to get this job done.
Mr. BURTON. It was not the intention of the Chair to denigrate
public service.
Ms. HARTY. Oh, no, no. I was just trying to get it out there.
37
Mr. BURTON. What I was trying to explain to Mr. Armitage and

Mr. Kelly, not necessarily you because you are here, was to explain
that there has to be oversight.
Mr. BURTON. And the elected officials are responsive to our con-
stituents. We run every 2 years, or every 6 years in the Senate,
and so we are supposed to keep track of what is going on. We cant
many times because there is so much going on.
Ms. HARTY. Though it is helpful for us. Your interest in these
issues is very helpful to us.
Mr. BURTON. Do you have any more questions?
Ms. WATSON. Let me just probe a bit, and see if the tone of your
conversations with the Saudi Government at the State Department
level indicates that there could be a threat to our relationships if
they dont address these cases. I mean, what do you do? What is
the tone when you talk to the government?
Ms. HARTY. I think the tone is always cordial, but the tone is
also very, very frank and businesslike. We have issues. We are not
going to stop discussing these issues. We have had some success in
some ofin making some progress, in that some of the things that
you both have mentioned that are so very different from our own
societys way of doing business they have begun to address. For in-
stance, the right of an adult American citizen to leave the country
if she wants to leave regardless of whether her male sponsor or
guardian allows it. They have given us that as an assurance, that
any American adult woman who wants to leave will be given an
exit visa even without the guardians permission. That is in direct
response to the many people who have made these representations
to the Saudis. And that starts with the President of the United
States when the Crown Prince visited this country. It goes to all
of the legislatures who have visited, who have made comments. Its
Secretary Powell on numerous occasions, its Assistant Secretary
Bill Burns from the Middle East Bureau. It is me and several trips
there. It is working at our embassies. It is constant. I do in fact
call it a never ending conversation. And some people see that as
a negative description. I see it as positive description of how in fact
we are trying to get this job done. We are simply not going to stop.
In addition to getting exit visas for American citizen women who
want to leave the country, we have also been assured that women
who mightparents who might want to go back to visit a child who
is wrongfully retained, even if a sponsor will not or does not want
them to go back, they are getting those permissions and they are
going to be allowed to go back in. Some have already, and that will
continue. Is it good enough? No. And it is certainly no substitute
for getting a child home, and we say that. I say it as I am saying
it to you now. But I think access in the intervening time as we con-
tinue to try and get children home is a very important thing for
a parent to be able to see their children. And so that is
Ms. WATSON. If you will yield for a second.
Ms. HARTY. Sure. Im sorry.
Ms. WATSON. On that, apparently American women married to
Saudis are able to come to the Embassy and they can get a visa,
exit visa pretty automatically?
38
Ms. HARTY. It is what the Saudis have told us now, and it has
been our experience in the last six cases.
Ms. WATSON. OK. But is it a common practice that the children
from that union are not automatically able to leave with their
mothers?
Ms. HARTY. You are right, maam. That is exactly the way it is,
and that is where our efforts are directed.
Ms. WATSON. Well, tell me, how does the Saudi Government see
the children of that union?
Ms. HARTY. The Saudi Government sees the children of a union
between a Saudi citizen and a U.S. citizen as a Saudi citizen.
Ms. WATSON. Even if the children were born in the States while
he was in school and then taken back?
Ms. HARTY. Yes, maam.
Ms. WATSON. And the children are born in the United States and
they are listed as American citizens, the Saudis interpret, because
the father is a Saudi citizen, just going to school, that these chil-
dren be Saudi citizens too?
Ms. HARTY. Maam, in general, that is true. There may be a case
that I cant think of at the moment where that is not the case. But
in general, that is true. A Saudi father has Saudi children.
Ms. WATSON. What kind of legal standing do we have, does the
mother have, when living in Saudi Arabia, married in the United
States to a Saudi citizen, had the children there, then went home?
Ms. HARTY. Back to Saudi Arabia?
Ms. WATSON. Back to Saudi Arabia, with the husband, went to
his home. What legal standing does she have in the Saudi courts,
in the American courts, and in the international courts?
Ms. HARTY. Well, the American courts, there is very little atten-
tion paid to American court orders outside of the United States,
and in Saudi Arabia the Saudi courts would prevail.
Something that you asked in your opening statement that I
should have also spoken to is what else we can do, what else we
can try and do to let peopleto stop these things from happening.
We have got a lot of information on our Internet now. Our Web site
gets 129 million hits a year. When you apply for a passport to trav-
el outside the United States, which she would have to do even if
she were going to Saudi Arabia, right on page 2 it gives you the
Web site, it gives you an emergency phone number to call. If you
were ever to use this, you would see a consular information sheet
on Saudi Arabia that talks about family matters. It says a married
woman residing with her Saudi husband should be aware that she
must have her husbands permission to depart or have their chil-
dren depart from Saudi Arabia.
It goes on at some length. We have other pieces: Islamic family
law, Saudi Arabia and international parental child abduction, a
travel warning on Saudi Arabia, additional information on our Of-
fice for Childrens Issues.
Ms. WATSON. Let me ask you this. Those papers are given to the
American female.
Ms. HARTY. Theyre available on the Web site, maam. As a mat-
ter of fact, weve got it on the Web site. Weve got it in the passport
so you know where the Web site is.
39
Ms. WATSON. I know. We will find that, you know, no one

reads
Ms. HARTY. But I have a new idea.
Ms. WATSON. Well, let me just say this, and then you can re-
spond.
Ms. HARTY. Sure.
Ms. WATSON. No one reads the information on the airline ticket.
Ms. HARTY. I know. Unless youre really bored standing at the
counter, you dont read page 2 of your passport.
Ms. WATSON. And I dont think they are reading the information
they pull from the Web site. So maybe your idea is the same as
mine. Would it be practical and effective to, when that person is
getting ready to go to Saudi Arabia, that whoever is the consulate
general or whoever is dealing with them must read that paragraph
to them, can be sure they understand or have them sign off?
Ms. HARTY. Actually, thats a great idea. Although weve talked
to the Saudis about it. I mentioned it in my opening remarks. And
we are talking about how we can share additional information. Be-
cause, of course, a womanan American citizen woman going to
Saudi Arabia wouldnt necessarily see an American official except
perhaps to get a passport; and, in that case, she doesnt have to tell
us why shes getting a passport, just that she needs one. So the
issue is whether or not we can come to an arrangement with the
Government of Saudi Arabia so that when they issue visas perhaps
that is a recommendation we can make, and Ill certainly pursue
that.
My idea was less creative, but Im going to do it anyway. And
that is I sell about 7.2 million passports a year, and maybe you
wont read page 2 of the passport, but youll open the envelope
when you get something from the passport agency because you
bought that. Youre looking for that passport. So were going to put
a little flyer on top of the passport itself. Cant get you to open a
book and read it. Maybe youll read the little flyer on top that calls
your attention to the Web site: travel.state.gov. Weve got 129 mil-
lion hits last year. If I can get people to read that Web site, that
will be a very useful thing; and we will be incorporating that into
the mailings that we do for passports so that people have more of
an ability to know that theres more information out there for
them.
Ms. WATSON. I am a strong believer in informed consent.
Ms. HARTY. Yes, maam.
Ms. WATSON. And some way we have to bring it to the attention
of the illiterate. You know, people just dont read. I think that
maybe we ought to put a step in between applying and getting your
passport, and that is that you need to sign off here that you have
read. And, that way, at least they sign it. Theyve read the above.
You know, often we sign and we havent read the above, but its
on them. I just feel we need to give more information in the begin-
ning, in the initial step so people can think about the choices they
have and what theyre getting ready to do.
Ms. HARTY. An informed consumer really is all of our bestthe
best protection for anybody.
Ms. WATSON. Exactly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
40
Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Ms. Watson.

I want to make sure before you leave you get a chance to hear
Sarahs comments.
Mr. BURTON. I have some more questions which Ill probably sub-
mit to you in writing, but theres a couple of other things Id like
to ask you before we get to Sarah. Regarding Sarah Sagas two
children, are they considered American citizens? And, if not, why
not?
Ms. HARTY. Sir, theyre not American citizens right now because
Mrs. Saga doesnt fulfill the transmission requirements for citizen-
ship.
Mr. BURTON. What are those requirements?
Ms. HARTY. That shean adult who wants to pass on citizenship
needs to have spent 5 years in the United States, 2 of those years
after the age of 14.
Mr. BURTON. Do you think that should be changed?
Ms. HARTY. Well, sir, inwe talked about this with Congress
several years ago and so, in 2002, we passed new legislation, the
Child Citizenship Actsorryof 2000; and what that does is rem-
edy the situation to a degree in that those childrenthe fact that
they are not right now holders of blue passports would have been
irrelevant to our reaction had we been able to get exit visas, get
on the plane.
We will solve this the minute we get home, because the Child
Citizenship Act of 2000 gives us the ability to very, very quickly
naturalize them and make them U.S. citizens. We worked hand in
glove with the Congress on that. Happily look at that again, but
its not an impediment to their coming to America at all.
Mr. BURTON. Well, thats comforting. It would be nice if we could
say that if a child is kidnapped and they have children later that
the citizenship rights would apply just as though they were living
in the United States.
Ms. HARTY. The citizenship in these cases accrues through the
petition process and the fact that their grandparentsthat the par-
ents of theyeah, the grandparents can, in fact, petition for them.
Mr. BURTON. I just have a couple more things I want to ask you
real quickly.
Can you put up on the screen the first letter from Margaret
Scobey? I dont think she can see that.
Ms. HARTY. Oh, I cant see that, sir.
Mr. BURTON. OK. Can somebody get her a copy of that so she can
see that real quick?
Ms. HARTY. My eyes just arent that good, sir.
Mr. BURTON. In fact, didnt we have an excerpt? That excerpt
was blown up. OK. Give her a copy of that.
Ms. HARTY. Thank you.
Mr. BURTON. Heres what that says. It says, we have provided
Sarahs passport to Saudi foreign affairs authorities in Jeddah and
asked for an exit permit and all exit formalities to be arranged that
will facilitate her departure from Saudi Arabia. She also asks to
bring her two children, Hanin and Ibrahim to the United States to
visit their motherher mother, whos never seen her grand-
children.
41
And then later, on June 19th, Sarah was in her room or bedroom
or whatever you want to call it; and she received notification that
there were three members of the Saudi Government that were com-
ing to see her. She had about 10 minutes notice. They came in and
were with her for about 2 hours, along with three women from the
consulate.
She ended up signing a document which says, I declare that I am
leaving Saudi Arabia alone without my Saudi national children
named in the document. In the event that I would like to see my
children, this matter would be left up to their fathers discretion,
and this would take place in Saudi Arabia. I sign this declaration
out of my own free will, without any coercion or any kind of pres-
sure from eitherany source or person.
So she was actually giving her children away because, as you
know, the father doesnt have to let her see the children according
to that. So she knew that she made a horrible error by signing
that. So, the next day, she signed a document that said, when I
signed the declaration on June 19 it was not my intention to relin-
quish any rights to which I was entitled. I simply intended to re-
flect my understanding of what I had been told by the Government
of Saudi Arabia. I did not intend permanently to waive my right
at some later time to demand custody of my children, nor did I in-
tend to agree not to seek the assistance of the Government of
Saudia Arabia in ensuring that I have access to my children.
What I cant understandand maybe youve talked to some of
these people, and I did talk to the Ambassador a little bit about
this. Im not sure he had the whole story, because some of the
things he told us was in error, and I dont think it was intentional.
I just think he didnt have the right information.
Why would those three women in the consulate, standing there,
relatively quiet, not tell her what she was giving away? Because
this young lady was under extreme pressure. She was scared to
death of the Saudi Government. She thought her father would kill
her if she left that place. She didnt feel she could leave even if her
children didnt go to America. She was caught. Why would they not
say this is something you ought to think about for 24 hours before
you sign it?
Ms. HARTY. To start with the visit to the room, Mr. Chairman,
I understood that the reason for that was that they thought it
would be more comfortable than suggesting that she leave the com-
pound to visit them, that the Saudis originally had invited her to
their office and we said no.
Mr. BURTON. I know. But she was given about 10 minutes.
Ms. HARTY. For which I regret that.
Mr. BURTON. And the second thing is nobody from our consulate
went in and said, now, look, they want to talk to you about this.
Heres the pros and cons of it. They just all came in, six of them
together.
Ms. HARTY. Yes, it was the regional security officer, the consular
officer and the consulate and the consul general.
Sir, perhaps there is a miscommunication here because the con-
sul general believes that she recommended that the document not
be signed, that it wasnt.
42
Mr. BURTON. Well, I talked to Sarah before the hearing, and well
let her speak for herself, but that was not the impression that I
had.
Ms. HARTY. Im uncomfortable puttingyou know, since I wasnt
in the room at the time, but the consul general certainly believes
that her recommendation was the opposite, that it not be signed at
that moment. But I have to say that what we also said at the time
was there is no way that any such a document signed in any such
situation would ever have been binding.
Mr. BURTON. Well, but the point is, it may not be binding as we
view it. But the Saudi officials that were there took that document
with them and they could use that any way they want for publicity
purposes or anything, to make it look like this gal gave up her kids
of her own volition and she just wanted to get the heck out of here
and go to the United States and she didnt care about her kids.
So what I cant understand and Imaybe youll ask them after
you leave to explain why they didnt take some time. In the future,
if other women come there, it seems to me they ought to sit down
with them and say, here are your rights and you ought to think
about this and weigh the pros and cons before you sign any docu-
ment.
Because people like that are under extreme pressure. She
thought shed be killed if she left.
And then, when I talked to the Ambassador, he said that she did
leavebefore she caught her plane and she met with family mem-
bers, including her father and her husband. She said that is not
the case. The father wasnt there, and the husband wasnt there.
And she said if they were there she wouldnt have gone. And so
that needs to be made clear.
Also, there was a question about they said what kind of a plan
do you have? And sheyou should go back to your family and stay
here until you have some kind of a plan to exercise to get out of
here. She indicated that was said to her as well. Are you familiar
with that?
Ms. HARTY. No, sir, Im not.
Mr. BURTON. Well, maybe I should get her up here so you can
hear her whole story; and then you can respond to us later. Let me
just ask a couple more questions, and then well let you listen to
what she has to say.
Michael Rives, we talked about him just a minute agoand Ill
rush through these. His wife was not even a Saudi, but her father
was connected to the Saudi Government so he was able to go down
there and use the Saudi Government as a shield to keep those kids
over there. So there ought to be something we can do to get those
kids back.
Ms. HARTY. Oh, sir, I regret that we havent had success yet. I
have been very aggressive on that case.
Mr. BURTON. Well, thats one that ought to bewell, they ought
to all be pursued.
Maureen Dabbagh, she married a Syrian national who abducted
their daughter Nadia to Syria; and currently shes suspected of
being held against her will in Saudi Arabia. She received custody
of her children from both United States and Syrian courts.
43
Ms. HARTY. I do know a little bit more about that case. What I
dont know, regretably, is whether or not the Privacy Act waiver
has been signed for me to tell you a little bit more about that.
Mr. BURTON. Well, this wont be the end of all these; and if you
could get us in writing
Ms. HARTY. Id be happy to, sir. I dont want to betray some-
bodystheres a personal situation in each of these cases, and I
dont want to betray that. I also dont want to not be cooperative
with you.
Mr. BURTON. Well, well look at it privately; and well discuss
that case.
Joanna Stephenson Tonetti. She married a Saudi national, had
three children: Rosemary, Sarah and Abdul Aziz.
Ms. HARTY. Yes, I met with those children, too. Theyre gorgeous.
Theyre lovely children. We are also trying very hard in that one.
Several other senators are involved in that case. They have been
for a long time. Both parents in communication trying to work
through
Mr. BURTON. Well, now dont make it look too good. Because he
came to the United States. He is from Terre Haute, IN. He was or-
dered by the court not to take the children out of the country.
Ms. HARTY. No, I dont mean to make it look
Mr. BURTON. This is important. He was ordered not to take the
children out of the country, and their passports were held. The
court contacted the Saudi Embassy here in Washington, said the
children are not to be taken out of the country. The Saudi Embassy
issued new passports to the children, they were kidnapped and
taken to Saudi Arabia, and she hasnt seen them since. So hes not
cooperating. He kidnapped the kids against a court order in the
United States.
Ms. HARTY. No, no. I dont think I said they were cooperating.
I said they are talking to each other, which is a good thing because
there are some things that he wants that may be ablethat may
break a logjam here. We have some hope in that case. We really
genuinely have some hope.
Mr. BURTON. That he will give the kids back to the United
States.
Mr. BURTON. Well, I want to follow that case very closely.
Margaret McClain. She had one daughter, Heidi, who was ab-
ducted in 1997. Recently, shes been able to visit her child in Saudi
Arabia, but she had custody. Are you familiar with that case?
Ms. HARTY. I am in fact. I met with Mr. Al-Omary as part of the
effort to get him to agree to allow her access for a visit. I met with
the Governor of the eastern province as well to make sure that this
got done. That visit took place not so very long ago. Its not a re-
placement foraccess is not a replacement for getting the child
home. But we at least were able to get Mrs. McClain a chance to
see her daughter, and we are continuing to push and push and
push on that case.
Mr. BURTON. Well, thats another reason why we ought to use
pressure like withholding visas for the extended families, because
that was a kidnapping case. It was violation of U.S. law. If he
comes backs here, he ought to be arrested and prosecuted. So to
44
say that shes been allowed to see her childI mean, my gosh, that
childs thousands of miles away. Its not like you can go over on a
Sunday afternoon.
Ms. HARTY. Yes. It is not a replacement for getting a child home,
but access is so important.
Mr. BURTON. OK. And, finally, Pat Roush, whos been with us.
She talked to us today, and she said, you know, she watched this
young lady come back to the States and her mother visit her, meet
her at the airport and hug each other and things. She said shes
been waiting on that for 20 years. Her children were taken away
from her.
I hope that we dont forgot those cases where the children are
now adults. They ought to have the opportunity to go to a neutral
country or to the United States, meet with the mother and without
any pressure from anybody else make a decision on whether they
want to stay in Saudi Arabia or stay in the United States.
Ms. Roush has told us in witnessing before the committee that
all she wants is for her two daughters to come over without any
strings attached to them. And if they decide they want to go back
after they come over, fine, but if they decide they want to stay in
Americatheyre American citizens. They ought to have the right
to stay.
I believe personally that they are under coercion and that they
were coerced when they were in London when they took them away
from Saudi Arabia while I was there with the delegation, and I
think it was purposeful to make it look like they were trying when
they werent. So thats another case I hope youll look at, even
though thats an older one.
Ms. HARTY. Oh, sir, there are few things Id like more than to
see that happen, so that those conversations could be held. Rest as-
sured that I have raised it on both trips. I will never go to Saudi
Arabia and not raise it.
Mr. BURTON. OK, well, the seven cases that you said where chil-
dren have been released Ill talk to you later and you can give us
copies of those, because I am not aware of those, and they are not
the ones that we were asking about when I was in Saudi Arabia.
Ms. HARTY. No, but three of them I think weI may have called
you on, sir, or perhaps a member of your staff, the first three. But
theres severalwith lightning rapidity, several others have oc-
curred.
Mr. BURTON. Well, well talk about that. And I hope youll listen
to what Sarah has to say, because it was indicated by Prince Saud
to me that any woman who wants to leave can leave. Once you
hear the whole story of this lady that was at the Embassy with
Sarah and how there was pressure put on them and their families
to keep them from leaving anyhow I think thatll give you a dif-
ferent picture. Because Prince Saud may say that theyre trying,
but there were government officials that said, you know, cut them
off at the airport. Dont give them anything. Leave them high and
dry. And there was pressure being brought to bear to force them
to change their minds.
Ms. HARTY. Youre talking about the other family.
Mr. BURTON. Im talking about the other family as well as Sarah,
and well let her testify about that.
45
Ms. HARTY. We have been in touch with her since she went back.
So far, we have assured her that we will continue to be in contact
with her, and she has been able to be in contact with us.
Mr. BURTON. Well, well let Sarah tell you what this lady said
to her when they were together in the Embassy, because I dont
think that whole story has come out.
With that, we appreciate you being here; and we will be sending
a tape andwith questions from the hearing and with your permis-
sion wed like to have you respond.
Ms. HARTY. Absolutely. Thank you, sir, very much.
Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Ms. Harty; and please take our mes-
sage back to the Secretary, Mr. Kelly, will you?
Ms. HARTY. Rest assured, sir.
Mr. BURTON. Thanks a lot. Appreciate that.
Wed like Sarah and her mother to come forward now. Where are
they? Oh, there they are. Right there.
Sarah, would you and your mother come up to the table?
Oh, and Ms. Radwan from the Saudi Embassy, are you here? Is
Ms. Radwan from the Saudi Embassy here? Ms. Radwan from the
Saudi Embassy, are you here? Is anybody from the Saudi Embassy
here?
Well, they said they were going to be here, and they sent us a
statement. I guess they dont want to be questioned. Doesnt sur-
prise me much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Radwan follows:]
46
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48
49
50
Mr. BURTON. Ms. Saga and Ms. Dornier, would you please stand
to be sworn.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. BURTON. Ms. Saga, you and I talked earlier, and you had a
prepared statement, but you said youd rather just answer ques-
tions. So what Id like to do is I would like for you to start at the
beginning and tell us when you decided to leave and why you de-
cided to leave. Tell us about your father and your husband, the
kind of problems you had, physical abuse and all that. And then
tell us what happened when you got to the Embassy.
Just go through your whole story. And you dont have to read
that. You can just tell it in your own words. Well put your official
statement in the record OK?
[The prepared statement of Ms. Saga follows:]
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53
54
55
56
57
58
59
STATEMENT OF SARAH SAGA, AMERICAN CITIZEN ABDUCTED
TO SAUDI ARABIA IN 1986
Ms. SAGA. Well, first
Mr. BURTON. Pull the mic real close. You have a very soft voice.
We want to make sure we hear everything you have to say.
Ms. SAGA. First, I want to say thank you to you and to all the
people who helped
Mr. BURTON. OK. Pull the mic a little closer because your voice
is very soft. We want to make sure we hear everything.
Ms. SAGA. I wanted to say thank you, and Im so thankful to be
here today. I am so proud that I am an American citizen and that
I had the right to come here and say my words.
What Ive been through was hard. As you know, I was taken by
my father from here when I was 5 years old, and I was cut away
from my mom. I wasnt even permitted to hold a picture of her.
And no calls. If they could even pull my memories away, they
would have done that. Only my family memberssome of my fam-
ily members, who they loved my mom very much, would talk about
her. But as long as I lived with my father I couldnt communicate
with my mom or even try to communicate with her.
My father married twice, and he used all kinds of abuse. He beat
me. I was locked in my room for 2 years and not even being al-
lowed to open the curtains.
Mr. BURTON. How many years?
Ms. SAGA. Two years.
Mr. BURTON. Two years?
Ms. SAGA. And my stepmothers also was helping him in that. I
was starved. I was heldmy father grabbed my head and just
slammed my head in the wall because I was talking to the phone
to someone I wasnt supposed to. My stepmothers family, her
brothers and sister used to put foul-smelling things in my bed, and
they would pour some medicines upon my study books, and I was
supposed to clean up what they did to me.
I wasnt allowed to even wash my clothes in the washing ma-
chine. I dont know why. MaybeI dont know why.
One day I took a picture from my grandma of my mom, and my
stepmother discovered that I was holding the picture, so she
wouldnt talk to me, she wouldnt let me go to the kitchen or eat
or get out of my room. And at the end I had to kneel down and
kiss her feet to just let me eat. So I was dreaming of the day,
which I can come here to my loving family, to my mom, just to live
a normal life as any woman, any human being.
My father was so ruthless and cruel to me. He used to beat me
for just foolish things.
One day heI had low marks in school, and he beat me with a
stick. And I went to school with my hands bruised with all colors,
blue and purple, and I couldnt even close my hands. And I was
holding my hands in the desk, and the teacher thought that I was
playing with something or writing something down, and she said,
take your hands out of the desks, and I said please dont make me
do this, I cant. And so my friend beside me told her that she has
been beaten by her father. And so I took my hands out, and she
was shocked. She almost screamed when she saw the sight.
60
During those years Ive reached a stage or Ive reached the point
that I would want to get rid of my life because of all of the suffer
I was going through and all the bad things I was going through.
I had no friend, no one, no family.
Also, my father had some problems with my family, my grand-
parents and my aunts and my uncles, so he wouldnt go even there.
So I had nobody to talk to, to tell what I was going through.
Mr. BURTON. Why dont you tell us, Sarah, about how you met
your husband and how you got married and then you had children
and then how you decided to leave.
Ms. SAGA. OK. When I was 18 years old, my husband and an-
other man proposed for my hand just like the original way of mar-
riage over there. His sister saw me in the school, and then she told
him about me, so he proposed. By that time, I was locked in my
room andfor 2 years, and in some sense I was so happy to get
out of what I was in from that home and to try to begin a new life,
which I was hoping to be nice. But during the engagement days I
couldnt make myself like that man or I didnt like him. And I tried
to talk to my father. Please, I dont want this man. Dont make me
marry him. So he wouldnt listen to me.
And I tried with all of my family members. But they had no
power because the word is for my father to say yes or no.
On the night of my wedding I tried my best to talk to my family,
to do something to prevent this marriage, but I couldnt. So in the
morning, I told him that I dont want him, and he called my father
and his father, and they both tried to talk me into completing this
thing, and they didnt want me to get a divorce. And my father said
youre young and you dont know life. Youll get used to him. And
so I couldnt prevent that from happening.
After a year of my marriage, I had my son; and after another
year I had my daughter. And when I had my daughter, it was like
she did awaken some things in me that was there but I couldnt
feel it because at that time I was a mother.
And for my luck that was the time that the Internet entered
Saudi Arabia, and so I tried to talk to my uncle, what can I do to
search for my mom? And so I went to Yahoo Web site, and I wrote
down my moms name. And then I couldnt get her number, but
then I wrote my family, my moms familys name.
And I got my grandmas number. And I knew that she lived in
her own house, shes not moving, and so I called her. And the an-
swering machine answered, and so I left a message saying that my
name is Sarah, Im looking for my mom and I hope that I can still
call you grandma. And so I called the next day and she was my
grandma, and I was so happy. We were all happy and crying. And
then we exchanged numbers and e-mails and we kept talking to
each other for 3 years.
At that time I was tryingsince I talked to my mom, I was try-
ing to get my husband to take me to anywhere so I can see my
mom. First I pleaded with him to take me to America so I can see
mom. But after a short while he was saying no all the time. He
wouldnt take me anywhere. And he was referring that to money
problems. He didnt have enough money to take me. And so one
time my mom offered that she will pay everything for us to go to
France so we can see each other. But he also refused. And I think
61
that my father had some influence on him. He was talking to him

and because he was acting like as if he was thinking the same way
my father does.
And so during those 3 years I tried every way possible for me to
convince him to take me to my mom. And 1 day we were arguing
about that, and he said, why do you want to see your mom? I dont
understand this relationship between you. And I said, I havent
seen her in 18 years and youre asking me why I want to see my
mom? And so I knew that from the beginning he wasnt going to
help.
So then I decided that I have to do something because he was
also beginning to be very verbally abusive with me and physically
abusive with the children, and I knew that the only way I can be
safe and free is to come with my children here to America. So I
began planning with my mom for a safe way to get out of Saudi
Arabia. It was very dangerous, and I was so afraid, and I had to
be secretive. Nobody knows. And I was losing my weight and my
hair and I was suffering skin problems and I tried to be as normal
as I can.
And then when the chance came for me to go to my grandparents
home I went there. And I pleaded with him to leave me for one
night because my grandpa was sick. And so I stayed there and at
5 a.m. I woke up, woke up the children, I took a taxi and we went
to the consulate. When we arrived there I went through the check-
ing in and everything, and then I stayed in the lobby for a long
time, probably 2 or 3 hours until somebody came to talk to me. And
they were asking me, whats your case? What do you want? And
then Lauren came, and she also asked me, why are you here? And
then we went to the consulate generals office, and they tried talk-
ing me into going back to my family.
Mr. BURTON. What did they say to you? I think this is very im-
portant, because we want the State Department and everybody to
understand what a woman goes through when that happens.
Ms. SAGA. At the beginning, they told me that if you can go to
your family, go now, and we will help you, we will stay in touch
with you. And I told them that I cant go back because if my father
ever knew what Ive done, he would kill me mercilessly. And they
told me that we havent known anything about you before, so we
dont have a file about you. If you had called us before, we could
have helped.
And, of course, it was too late for me to go back. I couldnt go
back. But I was in so much fear and pain. And I called my mom,
and I said, what can I do? I was afraid and I was so desperate to
get out of that country. So I refused to go.
And they called the woman who was in the consulate over there
toas if to convince me toyou know, look, this is a woman who
has been here 2 weeks, and she couldnt do anything, so youd bet-
ter go back because we cant do anything for you and your children.
Mr. BURTON. There was another woman there that had been
there 2 weeks and they said they couldnt do anything for you and
your children and for you to go back.
Ms. SAGA. Yeah. Yeah. They wereshe told me, the other
woman, that the people at the consulate tried to find someone who
was helping that woman, and they couldnt. And so that woman
62
was convinced that nobody was helping her and she was helpless
in the consulate. She has toin the end, she was so afraid. She
had to go back to her husband. And with her children. And al-
though their children, I mean, her children were with American
passports, she was trying to tell me that, look, my children have
passports and they couldnt go, so my children arethey dont have
passports, so she was trying to tell me
Mr. BURTON. OK. SoIm sorry to interrupt you. But this woman
had passports for her children?
Ms. SAGA. Yeah.
Mr. BURTON. And did she have passports for herself, too.
Ms. SAGA. Yeah.
Mr. BURTON. So she had passports to leave the country and shes
an American citizen and the consulate wouldnt do anything.
Ms. SAGA. No. No.
Mr. BURTON. And so she went back.
Ms. SAGA. She went back.
Mr. BURTON. Do you know what happened to her when she went
back?
Ms. SAGA. I dont know what happened after she went there, but
the reason she went back is because her husband has ahe had
a paper saying thatfrom a very high position man that if she
didnt hand him back the children he will throw her in jail, and she
would never see the children again.
Mr. BURTON. So she had to go back because of that threat?
Ms. SAGA. Yeah. Yeah.
Mr. BURTON. OK. Well, go on and tell us what happened to you
then.
Ms. SAGA. And so I stayed at the consulate, and I had toat the
first day I went there, because we were sharing the room with this
woman, she had three children and I have two children and the
room wasthere was two single beds in the room. So they told me
that I have to have some money because I have to buy sleeping
bags and I have to buy food for myself and my kids; and, of course,
I didnt have money because I ran away. I didnt have anything
with me. And so I called my mom, and she transferred some money
for me there.
Mr. BURTON. Why dont you pick up when they started talking
to you about what you should do when you said you wanted to
leave the country and just tell us what happened when the people
came to visit you. Just go into the details of that.
Ms. SAGA. From the beginning they were convincing me that its
OK for you to go, but your children can never go unless their father
gives the permission for them to travel with me. I actually went
there with the belief that somebody would help meI mean, from
the governmentto take my children with me safely to America.
And when I saw that the consulate people were not helping, they
just kept telling me that they cant do anything for the children.
They can help me go out, but they cant help the children. I mean,
help me take the children.
And Margaret Scobey went to Prince Saud Al Faisal, and he said
also that I can go, but the children cannot go unless their father
give them permission. So we were having meetings. Every day from
7 a.m. I would wake up, and I would go to the meetings with my
63
children. And every day they would keep saying that what do you
want to do? Whats your plan? And they would keep telling me
again and again that I cant take the children.
And so 1 day they wanted me to go to the Saudi ministryMin-
istry of Foreign Affairs and in the last minute I had communication
with someone in the family who told me that the ministry, the
Saudi ministry was planning to let my husband come to their office
over there in a weekend day where there was nobody but the peo-
ple who were going to talk to me. And in the last minute, I refused
to go because I was so afraid that my husband wouldif I was out
of the consulate, he could do anything. He could take the children,
he could let the religious police catch me or take me to jail. So I
didnt go.
And so the next morningor the same day, the consulate general
called me before those Saudi officials came, 10 minutes before they
came and from my
Mr. BURTON. So you had no notification that the Saudis were
coming to visit you until just 10 minutes before.
Ms. SAGA. No. I had no idea that they were coming to the con-
sulate and into my room. So, from my surprise, they knocked on
the door and I saw three men with three women from the consulate
knocking at my door. And they walked inside and they started
I mean, the Saudi officials talking me into the same thing. Weve
talked to your husband, and you cant take the children with you.
And Im sorry. I forget to say that day, before the men came, I
had a phone call and the operator there said that the consulate
general wants to talk to you. And so I said OK. And when I got
the line, it was my husband talking from the consulate generals
cell phone. And so I was trying to avoid talking to him.
Mr. BURTON. You didnt want to talk to your husband, but the
consulate general
Ms. SAGA. No, I didnt want to talk to anybody.
Mr. BURTON [continuing]. Called you and handed the phone to
him?
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. OK.
Ms. SAGA. And so I was forced to talk to him. And he told me
that we can go to some kind of agreement about the children, but
and he told me later that the Saudi officials told him that if your
wife ever took your children out of Saudi Arabia you will never see
them again. And so they were making sure that he knows that
there is a possibility of him not seeing the children, which I wasnt
going to do that. I was going to find something, a visitation or
something between us to see the children.
Other thing is that he told me that the Saudi officials told him
one of the Saudi men over at the ministry told him that, take
yourjust talk sweetly to your wife, give her whatever she wants,
take the children, and then just leave her to deal with her own
problems at the airport. And so I was so angry to know that, you
know, they would go to such extreme to not let me take the chil-
dren with me.
So when the Saudi men came they started talking about, you
know, that we cant let the children go, and there is no chance for
them to go unless their father said yes. And so, when Iand they
64
showed me a paper, which I thought that the consulate people, the

consulate officials whothey were the one who wrote the paper.
Mr. BURTON. The document they put in front of you, you thought
was written by the consulate people.
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. Did they say anything to you about the paper? Is
the paper whereMs. Saga, this is the paper where you agreed to
give up your children and not to see them unless the father said
it was all right?
Ms. SAGA. Yes, the paper said that I am givingby signing that
paper I am giving up the custody of my children in Saudi Arabia.
And when I signed the paper, I immediately knew that I shouldnt
do that.
Mr. BURTON. Did you get any advice from the consulate people?
Did they say anything at all to you like you ought to think about
this or
Ms. SAGA. No. They said this is your decision, and we cant force
you into doing anything. And thats it.
Mr. BURTON. But you didnt have much time to think about it.
Ms. SAGA. No. And so I was so afraid, and I called my mother
and told her what happened. And then the second dayI mean,
the next day they wrote another document which says that by sign-
ing that paper Im not giving up the custody of my children or
and so the whole issue was about the custody. There was no help
for me to take the children out. They didnt even ask about my chil-
dren. They said in the paper that I was asking for the children,
yes. But they werent asking for their exit.
After that, Imy husband started calling me at the consulate,
and he said, look I am not going toI will do anything to let you
protect the children. Im not going to let youIm not going to re-
peat what your father did to you.
And so I told him that I cant trust his word. So I asked him to
write a paper in front of the Saudi ministry and the American con-
sulate that he would never do such a thing, I mean, cut my chil-
dren of me and he would help to let me visit them, see them any-
where outside of the United States and outside of Saudi Arabia. So
he said OK, and he signed the papers.
But Ive been here for 2 weeks, and I cant talk to my children.
The only thing he is doing is hes letting me listen to their voices
on the phone. But I cant talk to them because he cant handle
their crying. And I tried to call his sister, because hes leaving the
kids with his sister. I tried to call her, and I asked her to let me
talk to the children, but she said Im not going to let you talk to
them, andbecause I have enough children and Im not going to
Im not going to let you talk to them until they are with their fa-
ther when he marries again.
And so that paper, in my thinking, was useless because he is al-
ready cutting my children from me.
Mr. BURTON. Let meMs. Harty, when she testified, said earlier
that one of the women from the consulate, when they were in there
with the three Saudi men, advised you not to sign that paper. Did
any of them say, dont sign the paper?
Ms. SAGA. No.
Mr. BURTON. All they said was what?
65
Ms. SAGA. That this is your choice. If you want to sign, sign. If
you dont want, this is up to you.
Mr. BURTON. But they didnt advise you to wait or to look at it
or think about it or
Ms. SAGA. No.
Mr. BURTON. Nothing. And they didnt say, dont sign it.
Ms. SAGA. No.
Mr. BURTON. Did they advise you to sign the paper the next day?
Did they come up with the paper the next day?
Ms. SAGA. They gave me the paper and said, look, this is some-
thing that we can correct the other paper with.
Mr. BURTON. Did they bring that paper in without you asking for
it?
Ms. SAGA. Yeah.
Mr. BURTON. In other words, they just brought it in and said,
this will correct what happened yesterday.
Ms. SAGA. Yeah. Because I talked to the consular general and I
said, look, I dont want that paper to beyou know, if you can just
tear the paper or do anything, I made a mistake by signing that
paper, so, please, I want toI dont want that paper to bethats
not the thing I want.
Mr. BURTON. And so they brought the paper in later after that.
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. OK. Now, I know this is just your opinion, or
maybe you could just tell us, what do you think the U.S. consulate
office and our consulars over there could have done to help you
that they didnt do?
Ms. SAGA. Well, what I think is at least they could have asked
for my children with the Saudis, because they were talking with
the Saudis all the time. And they didntyou know, I didnt feel
like they were cooperating in my childrens case.
Mr. BURTON. They wouldnt help you get your children. They said
they would help you get out, but they didnt
Ms. SAGA. Yes, for me it was OK to get out. But for my children
it was hard for them to do that. And so they were leaving the thing
up to my husband.
Mr. BURTON. OK. Ms. Watson, do you have any questions youd
like to ask?
Ms. WATSON. When the paper was in front of you, did they ex-
plain to you at all what was on that paper and what you would be
committing to?
Ms. SAGA. They only gave me the paper to read. And they said,
you read the paper, and they were telling me thats what they
cameI mean, thats what they thought, it is something which is
going to help in my case.
Ms. WATSON. Did at any time they talk about you as an Amer-
ican citizen and what your rights as an American citizen are?
Ms. SAGA. They told me that I can have an American passport,
but I was told also that I have to have an exit permission from the
Saudi ministry, even if I am an American. So eitherboth ways,
I mean, if I went out on my Saudi nationality or my American na-
tionality I would have to have the permission of the Saudi Govern-
ment. Thats what they told me.
66
Ms. WATSON. Were they talking about a visa when they talked
about an exit permit?
Ms. SAGA. I dont remember the name, but it was something like
a visa, permission for me to get out of Saudi Arabia.
Ms. WATSON. What Im getting to, I want to know, did the con-
sular from the American Embassy explain to you your rights and
explain to you your rights in connection with the children whose
father was Saudi Arabian? Im trying to get to that kind of con-
versation.
Ms. SAGA. Do you mean my rights in going out of Saudi Arabia?
Ms. WATSON. And your childrens.
Ms. SAGA. And my children. Well, as I said, they kept telling me
that I can go out as American alone, but if I want to take my chil-
dren, they havebecause they have no American passports, so they
would have to have their fathers permission going out of the coun-
try. And I was told also that even if Im an American citizen I have
to have the governments permission to get out.
Ms. WATSON. When you initially took your children and went to
the consulate or the Embassy, were you aware of what was re-
quired of you? Did you have any idea what was required of you and
the children to leave Saudi Arabia?
Ms. SAGA. Actually, I knew it wasnt going to be easy, because
there isthe people there are stubborn. They wont let me easily
go out. But I hoped by talking to the American people here and to
the media and by the help of the government I would take my chil-
dren with me.
Ms. WATSON. What Im really getting to in asking these ques-
tions is the procedure inside the Embassy. I was a former Ambas-
sador, too, and I know what happened in my Embassy. I think its
incumbent on the Embassy staff, the consulars that deal with pass-
ports and visas, to walk you through your legal steps; and I dont
know if Ive heard you say that they walked you through it.
So you had an understanding, I heard you say, before you came
you knew it wouldnt be easy, it would be difficult because the peo-
ple were so stubborn. But I think the consular should have ex-
plained to you legally so that you would understand what you were
up against and walk you through it. So I cant quite make out if
you knew exactly once you got there what your legal rights were
and were not and how they could help and could not help.
Ms. SAGA. Nobody at all talked to me about my legal rights. And
all that they did, they gave me the application for the passport and
I filled that application. Thats all. Ino one ever spoke to me
about my legal rights and what I should do and what I should do
because I wasnt familiar with the American law. I lived there all
my life.
Ms. WATSON. I think your case is probably not unusual in coun-
tries like that.
Thats the reason why I made my statement, Mr. Chairman, be-
cause I was trying to put it in that framework. Its difficult for
women in many of these countries, not only in the Middle East but
Southeast Asia, down the Pacific; and I think theres something
that we need to do in terms of our State Department process wher-
ever we have an Embassy and someone looks for refuge there.
67
Particularly in your case and other American women like you,

there should be a procedureand I want you to respondthat will
let you know exactly what your rights are, rather than encouraging
you to go back into a situation that would put you at high risk.
And we know the risk.
I thank the chairmanthank you for holding these hearings. Be-
cause we have heard from people just like yourself, the actual facts
to their captivity. I like to call it captivity.
But, anyway, we might be able to, through legislation, develop a
procedure so you will know exactly what youre going into when
you leave to goand if you go into a consulate, if you go into an
Embassy, what to expect. They should walk you through so you
will know your legal rights and your childrens rights and the
rights of the person whose country youre in. That would be helpful
to you so when you call your mother you can say, look, I cant get
the kids out, but I can get out and maybe we can fight in the
courts, the international courts, to get our children.
But would that be helpful? Is that a step that we need to take?
Ms. SAGA. Yeah. Actually, it would be helpful, but the case in
Saudi Arabia is the power of men over there.
Ms. WATSON. Exactly.
Ms. SAGA. Even if the woman knew that when she goes to the
consulate or an Embassy she should do this and this and this,
butand she couldnt do this and this, but the problem is, if there
is anything, I mean, to help the women over there, because I think
this is the country where a lot of women are unable to come for-
ward and say that I want to get out of here. And if there is any-
thing which can help those women, I mean, to make the power of
those men less on those poor women, I would say that would be a
great thing to do.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you. It is broader and bigger than just your
case. It is the case of all womankind in these developing or under-
developed countries and their treatment of women. It is a struggle
for womens rights.
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Ms. WATSON. Thank you so much for your testimony, and thank
you so much for your responses.
Mr. BURTON. Let me just addthank you, Ms. Watson.
Let me just ask a couple more questions, and then I will yield
to Mr. Ose in case he has any questions since hes returned.
Do you still fear your father? As I understand, he has a visa to
come to the United States and works for, was it, a U.S. company?
Ms. SAGA. He lived here and studied here. He married my moth-
er. So he havehe has a green card, so he can come freely here.
Mr. BURTON. He has a company that has business here in the
United States?
Ms. SAGA. Yes. He works for Aramco.
Mr. BURTON. Aramco?
Ms. SAGA. Aramco.
Mr. BURTON. Does he travel back and forth to the United States?
Ms. SAGA. I dont know, really. He have trouble several times,
but he doesnt tell.
Mr. BURTON. But you still have concerns about your safety?
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
68
Mr. BURTON. Do you think that he would hurt you if he had a

chance?
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. Now I know you cant speak from experience or
from personal knowledge, but do you think there is a lot of
womenAmerican women over in Saudi Arabia that would like to
leave there that are suffering from the same kind of problems you
do?
Ms. SAGA. Yes. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. Did you know of any others that you think would
like to leave if they could?
Ms. SAGA. Well
Mr. BURTON. You dont have to give their names or anything.
Ms. SAGA. No, actually, personally, I didnt know someone who
wants to get out. But I know some womenAmerican women over
there which havethey had problems, divorce problems and prob-
lems with the children, and Ive heard stories about them. And
from theI think most of the families there have the same story:
A man goes to the USA, and he marries a woman and have chil-
dren, and then the problem begins.
Mr. BURTON. He, in effect, owns them.
Ms. SAGA. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. Is there anything else that you would like to say
maybe?
Let me yield to my colleague, Mr. Ose, first to see if he has any
questions, and then we will ask your mother if she wants to make
any comments.
Mr. OSE. I would be happy to get my own time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. Go ahead.
Mr. OSE. OK. I just want to clarify something.
I apologize for having to leave. I got scheduled into the Chair
over on the floor from 3 to 4.
I just want to clarify something. I understand that the represent-
ative from the Saudi Embassy did not show, Mr. Chairman? The
representative from the Saudi Embassy did not show?
Mr. BURTON. No. They sent a statement over from the Saudi Em-
bassy, and she was supposed to testify, but she didnt show up.
Mr. OSE. And I also understand that there was a discussion here
about Ms. Sagas citizenship in the sense that she had not spent
the requisite 5 years continuously in the States in order for trans-
mission to take place, is that accurate?
Mr. BURTON. As far as the children are concerned, right.
Mr. OSE. So if I understand the following on to that particular
thing, I just want to say, Ms. Saga, Ms. Dornier, this isnt directed
to you. I just want clarification. If I understand then, the fact that
our government and our State Department cannot, if you will, for
lack of a better term, liberate these children, they are in effect
being asked to relinquish that which billions of people seek but
their own government cant protect, which is their citizenship. They
are held hostage in a foreign country to a date certain beyond
which they cannot comply with the laws of this country to effec-
tuate transmission? Do I understand that correctly?
Mr. BURTON. That is correct. The lady that testified earlier, Ms.
Harty, she indicated that there is a provision in law that allows
69
them to, if they come to the United States, to stay while seeking
citizenship. But as far as being citizens with the rights of the
United States, they arent.
Mr. OSE. I may have missed this discussion. Was there any dis-
cussion from Ms. Harty about accommodating or addressing the
circumstances under which a child, a minor, whose actions and ac-
tivities arefrankly, are legally constrained in the first place, but
where the presence of a minor in a foreign country, physically pre-
vented from coming here, loses their citizenship? There is no provi-
sion in the law for addressing that?
Mr. BURTON. According to the law as it has been presented to me
and as she mentioned in her comments, if the parent, the mother
has been out of the country for more than 5 years and she was a
minor when she went over there, her children, the issue of that
marriage is not considered an American citizen. But they will allow
them to come to the United States under a visa, and then they can
go ahead and make application for citizenship.
Mr. OSE. So if I understandI had a constituent. She moved to
San Francisco, as I recall. She had two daughters who were ab-
ducted and remained in Saudi Arabia. They have now become of
majority age under our laws. They have lost their citizenship?
Mr. BURTON. No. No. She was an American citizen when she had
the children.
Mr. OSE. Correct. So the children were not here for the requisite
number of years.
Mr. BURTON. No, they are talking about the parent. If the parent
was out of the country for 5 years and they had children, those
children did not gain American citizenship as a birthright like you
would if you were born here.
Mr. OSE. So what if the parent comes back, but the children do
not?
Mr. BURTON. Well, that is the problem we have right here.
Mr. OSE. That is my point. I have a former constituent
Mr. BURTON. Her children in effect have no rights as an Amer-
ican citizen, even though they were born of an American citizen.
Mr. OSE. I dare say the Saudis know this.
Mr. BURTON. They do know this.
Mr. OSE. I have to say, Mr. Chairman, I am somewhat pleased
to see the administration start moving our military to Qatar and
Kuwait and Bahrain. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to under-
stand that we are at least taking what appear to be some steps to
no longer defend that which is indefensible.
And I dont have any questions for Ms. Saga. I mean, I cant tell
you how pleased I am to have you home. I mean, as I understand,
you are in Fresno, which is, if you will, down valley from where I
am. And I am pleased you are here. I am sorry your children are
still there.
Ms. SAGA. Thank you.
Mr. OSE. I justMr. Chairman, I am at a loss for words.
Mr. BURTON. Well, thank you, Mr. Ose.
I think we have covered just about everything.
Ms. Dornier, do you have any comments you would like to make
since you are here for your daughter for the first time in a long
time?
70
Ms. DORNIER. I apologize. I thought that I was going to have a

chance to make a statement, and so I did prepare something. Is
that possible?
Mr. BURTON. Sure. You are welcome to that right now.
STATEMENT OF DEBBIE DORNIER, MOTHER OF SARAH SAGA
Ms. DORNIER. Thank you very much.
In 1975, I met a man who called himself Steve and appeared to
be an American. We dated, and later I found out that I wasonce
I was already involved with him, that he actually was a Saudi
named Waheed Saga. And many asked why I married him. To me,
he was different from the other Arabs. He was very Americanized.
We married; and over the years he changed, especially after
Sarah our child was born in 1979. He became more abusive and
unreasonable; and in our divorce negotiations, he wanted to take
her, then age 3, to be raised by his mom. I got him to compromise
by agreeing to allow her to visit his family in the summers, know-
ing that his family had been very supportive of me in the past.
Initially, he did this, but then in 1985 he took her and refused
to return her. I offered to go be his mothers maid so I could just
be with her. This plan seemed to be progressing, but he said I
would have to give up my American citizenship, marry him, and
become a Saudi. After the advice of my family and much prayer,
I decided that I could have more success from here than from
there.
Once informed of this decision to stay here, he cut me off from
all contact with Sarah, and what ensued was years of silence. I
tried to get a bench warrant and take legal action against him, but
all avenues required my notification of him of my efforts. This I
could not do, because in our first conversations after the kidnap-
ping, he promised me he would kill Sarah if I tried to get her back,
saying she was better dead than ever returning to this evil country.
Even to this day, members of his own family believe he would do
this without a second thought.
The State Department at the time promised they would have
record and passport available to her if she could ever get to the
Embassy but that they could not risk relations for Saudi Arabia for
one child.
To say I was upset would be a gross understatement. My hands
were tied at every turn. I decided not to risk her life by going to
the media and prayed that in time things would change.
Then, in 2000, just 1 month after we celebrated Sarahs 21st
birthday, telling the younger family members stories about her and
celebrating who she was, she called. The tremendous joy was so in-
credible. She was alive.
We renewed our relationship, and the tales of abuse and torture
she told me broke my heart. But at least we were in contact again.
Then 1 day, after many attempts to try to get her husband to let
us meet, she said, mom, I cant live this way anymore. I have to
take my children and get them out of here. And so began our quest
to help Sarah come home with her babies.
We heard of Pat Rausch via Internet searches on Saudi abduc-
tions, and she along with others helped tremendously in the com-
ing months to facilitate Sarahs escape. Ultimately, Sarah was able
71
to get her husband to take her to see her grandparents near the
consulate in Jeddah, and that evening there in California I waited
what seemed endless hours to hear if she had safely made it into
the refuge of the consulate. Never did I expect that first call would
reveal that the people there at the consulate would already have
tried to convince Sarah to go back home.
In the days to come, I had to explain to officials that in fact her
life was in danger if she left the consulate compound. She was con-
stantly telling me that she had meeting after meeting. Each time
they gave no hope to help her get her kids out. The consular offi-
cials were unwilling to represent Sarahs best interests over that
of the Saudis.
First they told me they were not equipped to have Sarah there
because someone else had sought refuge there and was using the
apartment. When convinced that Sarah was unable to leave, then
I was toldthey told me that I need to send money for Sarah and
the kids to eat because the consulate had no funds to pay for their
food.
Even Matthew Gillen from Overseas Citizens Services didnt tell
me he was supposed to be my Stateside, State Department contact
until the Fox News correspondent found out for me days after our
first conversations. We had spoken a few times to facilitate getting
money to Sarah and briefly get background details on her case, but
that was all. It seemed that no one wanted to help Sarah come
with her kids from there.
On one occasion I asked Mr. Gillen to have officials stop pressur-
ing Sarah to sign documents of which she could not know the legal
ramification or even understand without legal advice. He said he
could not do this; she was an adult and could make her own deci-
sions. When I pressed the issue, I explained that by leaving at six
she had no concept of her rights under American law; and I sug-
gested thathe suggested that I was making a big deal out of the
issue, but that there were lots of lawyers the consulate might be
willing to work with, and he could fax me a list. When I received
the list, they were all Saudi men in Saudi Arabia who could not
be necessarily assured that they would represent Sarah and her
childrens best interest over that of the Saudis.
By the time I had procured an American lawyer, they had not
only refused to fax us a copy of the documents they were having
her sign but had already worn her down to the point of exhaustion
mentally and physically such that she agreed to take the best deal
that she could get to keep contact with her kids and come home
to continue the fight for their freedom.
To date, every promise made to her at that time to keep contact
with her children has already been broken. She has only been al-
lowed to hear her childrens voices in the background of phone calls
and not to speak to them. The loss is unbearable for her. But we
stand together to fight for as long as it takes for her children to
come home.
As always, we remain concerned that her father Waheed Saga
holds a green card to the United States and works for an American
company Aramco there in Yanbu, Saudi Arabia. We have no doubt
that, if he could, he would silence us both for good. To date, we
have not been successful in preventing his entry into the United
72
States as a deterrent to further violence against my daughter or

myself.
Ms. Harty said that now Saudis are saying that adults will be
allowed to return, but let me point out that by that time they will
most likely be mothers themselves and required to leave their own
children behind, perpetuating to a new generation this atrocity.
In closing, let me just say that if a woman must go through what
Sarah did at the hands of her own government consular officials,
I am sure few will flee for home. As Sarah told me herself, they
could have easily been Saudis, not Americans, as they were pre-
occupied with saving Saudi pride and their business relationship
with Saudi Arabia, rather than her rights as an American. Even
as she left, they told her one more time to avoid the media as it
might embarrass them.
Freedom of speech is one of the most precious freedoms our great
forefathers have left to us. Representatives in our consulate in
Saudi Arabia might do well to remember such is the great heritage
of all Americans. Thank you.
Mr. BURTON. Ms. Dornier, let me just say that I apologize for not
letting you make your statement earlier. We were anxious to hear
from your daughter and hear her story. But that was a very mov-
ing presentation, and I hope that everybody who heard it will take
it to heart.
Ms. DORNIER. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Dornier follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Do you have any more questions, Ms. Watson?

Ms. WATSON. I dont have a question. I just have a comment, Mr.
Chairman; and, again, I want to thank you for pursuing this.
I feel very deeply the experiences you have and the fact that I
think our government has really let you down. I saw it occurring
in my own Embassy where I had to step in, and I intendI want
to make this commitment not only to the two of you and those in
the audience but to the Chair, that I am going to pursue this issue
and so that we can train our turfeverywhere we have an Em-
bassy it is U.S. turfand the people on that turf to treat Ameri-
cans with respect, to treat Americans with compassion, to be sure
they know their rights, and to intercede for them on that post, in
that land where they are stationed. I think that is the least we can
do.
And your last line confirms it. As Americans, we have an obliga-
tion to you when you are on this turf, the United States of Amer-
ica, or turf sitting in Saudi Arabia or sitting in China, we have a
responsibility to you.
There is something missing in the State Department, and I cant
describe it; that is for another discussion. But you have my com-
mitment, and I am sure the Chair will remain committed. And,
again, thank you.
Mr. BURTON. Let me just end up by saying, first of all, thank
you, Ms. Watson.
It is nice to have you back. We will continue to work to see if
there is something that can be done to bring your children home.
I am convinced there are hundreds, maybe thousands of women
like you in Saudi Arabia who would like to come back.
One woman told me: Just put me in a box with my kids, stick
me anyplace on a plane, just get us out of here. And she told me
her husband would kill her, and she gave detailed information on
how he would kill her which I am not at liberty to talk about be-
cause he might know who she is if it was on television.
But we had a number of stories like that. So I know there is a
lot of women like that.
The one thing I will say about our consulate and our Embassy,
years ago, Monica Stowers took her kids to the Embassy in Riyadh,
and the consular officer there took her and her children escorted
by Marines, who didnt want to do this, to the front gate and put
her out on the street. She was arrested and her children stayed
there and her daughter was married off when she was 12 years old.
And Pat Rausch has gone through a similar situation.
Those sorts of things hopefully wont occur anymore, because now
they will be not kicked out on the street. There is a long way to
go, and I think we covered a lot of that today, and we are going
to work with the State Department and try to convince them that
we have got to be tougher on the Saudis and others who are taking
away the liberties of American citizens.
If somebody kidnaps a child from America, whether Saudi Ara-
bia, Germany or anyplace in the world, we ought to have some kind
of an agreement with them that those people will be sent back for
prosecution because they violated American law, and American law
must not be superseded by the Saudi law or any other law in the
world.
85
With that, I want to thank you very much for being here. We
really appreciate it.
Ms. Watson is, I think, as she said, a former Ambassador. She
a real tiger. And she and I will work together to see if we cant get
some steps taken in the right direction to solve these problems.
Thank you very much for being here, and God bless you.
Ms. SAGA. Thank you very much.
Mr. BURTON. Thank you. We stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:27 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:]
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House Hearing, 108TH Congress - International Child Abduction: The Absence of Rights of Abducted American Citizens in Saudi Arabia

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House Hearing, 108TH Congress - International Child Abduction: The Absence of Rights of Abducted American Citizens in Saudi Arabia

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INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION: THE AB-

SENCE OF RIGHTS OF ABDUCTED AMERICAN

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND

Serial No. 10867

Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office

PETER SIRH, Staff Director

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND WELLNESS

WEDNESDAY, JULY 9, 2003

Mr. BURTON. I ask unanimous consent that all articles, exhibits,

Because of the attention that the issue of international child ab-

Ms. Radwan will hopefully explain why the Saudi Government

Mr. BURTON. And before I go to our first witness, Ms. Harty,

Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Mrs. Maloney. And without objection,

scheduled to receive a permit this week and to depart shortly for

to America. They were abducted. And what I am asking is, obvi-

Mr. BURTON. What I was trying to explain to Mr. Armitage and

Ms. WATSON. I know. We will find that, you know, no one

Mr. BURTON. Thank you, Ms. Watson.

that my father had some influence on him. He was talking to him

showed me a paper, which I thought that the consulate people, the

Particularly in your case and other American women like you,

Mr. BURTON. Do you think that he would hurt you if he had a

Ms. DORNIER. I apologize. I thought that I was going to have a

States as a deterrent to further violence against my daughter or

Mr. Burton. Do you have any more questions, Ms. Watson?

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