Rev.

Bob Bergland Interview

Sarah Arney (SA): Okay, so to begin these interviews, Id like to play you something that

I heard at General Conference, which you have probably heard as well, or may or may

not have. This is a Bishop who is beginning to start some group conversations. Here it

is.

Bishop Palmer: So I want to tell you a quick story. The Council of Bishops a couple of

years ago was having table conversations about some of our most challenging issues in

the life of the church and the several cultures that we represent around the globe. One

of our colleague bishops at the table where I was sitting said, We all need to take a

step back. There was a pregnant pause, as you might imagine, not knowing what would

be said next by this particular bishop, who Ill not throw under the bus as we speak. He

said, Why dont we try telling our story, before we take our stand. I found those words

memorable, and I'm grateful for them to this day, no matter what the subject is before

us. So would you see this as a time for you to tell your story, and you dont have to give

every detail of your life, but as it relates relevantly to this conversation that weve been

engaged in over many decades around human sexuality. And as you begin that, the

statement is coming, that ought to be available at the heart, but think about telling a

story, telling your story, before you take your stand.

SA: So I play that at the beginning to set the tone for this interview, that its more to ask

you about your formational experiences and the values youve come to as a pastor and

in your experience, rather that attempt to outline the camps that people particularly

belong to, and start from that approach. So, would you like to say your name, your

occupation, and a bit about yourself?

Bob Bergland (BB):

Okay. My name is Bob Bergland. I am the senior pastor of First United Methodist

Church in Wilson, North Carolina. I'm just beginning my fifth year here. I started in

ministry as a local pastor in 1979, when I was 25 years, and I have been active in the

church. Ive only had seven appointments I think, and have served small kinds of

congregations to very large congregations. I am married and have three children. They

are all married and I have one granddaughter. My wife Ellen, she is a counselor, we met

through the church. She was a Christian educator and I was a pastor.

SA: Great. Could you tell me a little bit about your call to ministry?

BB:

My call ministry was, I suppose, there were stages of that call. I am the son and

a grandson of pastors. My grandfather was a United Brethren pastor who was a

missionary pastor in Montana. My father was an Evangelical United Brotherhood pastor

Ohio. He went on, was on the faculty of United Theological Seminary and then came to

Duke where he was an associate dean of the Divinity school, and that's what brought us

here.

I felt there were enough pastors with the last name Bergland. I have uncle that

was also pastor, and he went on to teach at Union Theological Seminary in New York

City, and so I thought that's enough. I was a construction worker. My call to ministry was

really relational in the fact that I began to see God doing things in my life through the

local church that I was in at Trinity United Methodist Church in Durham. There were

some college graduates that got together, and we were exploring Scripture and what

that meant for our lives.

 Then when I was at work in construction I helped build North Duke Hospital. We

would have a Bible study that would begin about 6 o'clock in the morning. They knew

that I was a preacher's kid so they said, You lead it, and I didnt know what I was

doing. That was an interesting place. I think the kind of people that I worked with were

really an amazing crowd of folks. There were some who had been imprisoned, there

were some who were on work release, and there were some who were educated and

had just lived a life a lot like me, there were privileged college graduates. There were

some that were addicted to substances of all kinds and life was really crazy. There were

some that were terribly racist.

I remember that the guy that I was leading this with was a young black man, and

there was one day when we were working through the day and another guy pulled a

knife on him and was going to kill him. I just watched that, that didn't happen, but then I

watched as in this Bible study those two developed a relationship. The vision that was

there between them, God did something. And in that moment I began to just be amazed

at the power of God at work in human life and it doesn't have to be in a church.

I was working one day with another guy, his name was Benny. Benny was an

alcoholic that when he wasn't drinking he was great. When he was everything in his life

just fell apart and he lost everything, really everything. One day, Benny and I were

working together he'd just come off of a binge and we were talking about I dont know

what. And Benny didnt wear, he didn't have teeth, he wore false teeth, and he liked to

chew tobacco. This is really nasty. Hed take his teeth out and the tobacco would go

down the sides of his mouth, and I thought, Man you are so gross. And as we were

talking, and we were talking about matters of faith and what God was doing, its strange

you do that in those settings. And suddenly his mouth became the mouth of God, and it

literally was God saying to me, Bob you need to go and be a preacher.
 And I left, that was in the fall, and I left and applied to Duke Divinity school and

began Duke Divinity school January of that year. That's kind of what happened with me

and my call. It's been reaffirmed over and over and over again. There are still those

places, even now, where my call to ministry takes a new shape and I hear the voice of

God confirming the work I do and calling me in different directions. Thats my call.

SA: Thank you. So how important would you say that culture is in shaping your religious

beliefs? This could be being an American, living in the American South, that kind of

thing.

BB:

I think it's incredibly important. One of the things that I have been able to

experience in my ministry is to be a part of the church on a worldwide level. Ive

preached in Havana, Cuba outside of Havana. I have been involved in churches and

preaching Costa Rica. I've been in the church in South Korea and stood there at the

demilitarized zone as we watched what the Christian witness was there in the face of

that tension. I have been to South Africa and watched how the church works there. And

there have been a lot of places where I have watched how as Christian people there are

different kinds of responses to, how do we live out this faith based on culture? I think

culture has a tremendous impact, and I think the message of the Gospel and what God

is doing in human life remains the same. I think it's expressed a little differently in

different places. Sometimes real different.

SA:

Where would you say is the most different place that youve been from here?
*****pause

BB:

There have been several. In South Korea I went to a small church in Paju which

is about an hour outside of Seoul, and it was a I guess it was an average size

congregation. I remember we had interpreters, I dont speak Korean. There was one

part of the service where the pastor, who was a woman, it was the offering. Usually our

offertory prayers of thanksgiving are not very long. She went on and on and on and on,

and I didn't know exactly what was happening. I discovered later, someone told me, that

what was going on is she was lifting up each gift that people gave. They put it in a box

outside and was brought into the altar and blessed there. And she would lift up an

individual and say, This is the gift that they had brought, and then pray individually over

each offering. That was really a different setting.

I think I was in another setting where I was preaching, and it was on the north

shore of Cuba. I don't remember the name of the town, but it's the only place I've had

people run out of the church to bring me in to preach. I was in a van, we were coming,

and they had already had a service going on for about an hour. And because of what is

happening with the all things between United States and Cuba, things are pretty they

werent as shiny or as nice and as good as the things that we take for granted here.

Good isn't the answer, or the way to describe it, but I remember they had some

instruments and people were playing, and it was it was pretty amazing. I got up and

preached a sermon with an interpreter, and after I was done, I preached for about 40

minutes, so the service is going on an hour and 40 minutes. They had an evangelist

who was Cuban and he began to exhort the people. The exhortation was calling people

to decision, to make a decision about Christ. So all the preaching was for response, it

was invitational. That was that was pretty incredible because he went on for probably
another 45-50 minutes and then the service ended. Later that day I was a part of a

baptism where we baptized 300 people, and to see that happening, some of these

people had been preparing for over a year for that baptism. The Cuban government

would not allow that baptism to take place in a public place, so we had all these people

crowded into the courtyard of this church in Havana. That was really different, that was

really different. I've been in contemporary worship services of various sorts, Ive heard a

lot of different styles of music.

SA:

How would you describe your view of the doctrine in the United Methodist Church

as it stands about human sexuality?

BB:

I think I look at the doctrine of the church, and one of the things we did with Faith

and Order is, one of those things we look at is the primacy of Scripture. How does

Scripture shape us, and how we live into that Scripture holding that as primary in all

things? And then looking at our own experience, what are the traditions of the church?

And you've heard all this in the quadrilateral perhaps. Then how do we reason that out?

The doctrine of the church I hold to, I think that when you are inviting people into a

relationship with Jesus Christ you don't begin with doctrine. I don't think that's where it

starts, and if we begin at that point with doctrine, then I think that we've already created

the barrier or the hurdle.

I believe that we have to form relationships with people. Thats what Christ did,

and found people exactly where they were, wherever they were in life. Then just like in

Cuba when there was a call to respond, what does that mean when I say yes to Christ?
What is that going towe have this idea of making disciples of Jesus Christ for the

transformation of the world. What does that transformation mean? Does it mean I stay

exactly where I am? Does it mean that my life begins to change? I think it really means it

changes in lots of ways. There were changes in my life that took place when I went from

that construction job to Divinity school to being a pastor of a church to even now when

Im in my 60s. I look at the doctrine of the church and I uphold that doctrine. That's

where I am right now.

SA: So were going to go back in time a little bit. When you were growing up did you

hear anything about the debate in the church over LGBT persons in the church or was

there any kind of discussion? What did you hear?

BB:

Believe it or not I went to a General Conference when I was still in high school. I

was 17, it was 1972. The church had just merged in 1968 and this was that General

Conference that followed after two years where they tried to give shape to it. What

would it look like? How would the EUBs, what would happen with that and what would

happen with the Methodists?

That was a place where a lot of this really began to show up. There were those

places where clergy were set apart. We face all the human frailties that are part of

human life and we have all the pressures that society throws at us, but we are expected

to live a life that is, I don't want to use the word exemplary because that's not the word

in the discipline, but we are expected to live to the highest moral standards. After that

there was a couple of sentences that were put in that had to do with homosexuality.

When that happened there were some delegates, there were some people who were
observing that, and I heard this as a teenager, who began to say, This will ultimately

create a division within the denomination, and they said, We don't know when that will

be, but the way that is right now, will create this division. For a long time, I thought,

Jiminy Christmas I hope that's not the case, but thats what Ive heard.

So as the years have gone by I have heard this debate, I've been a delegate to

three General Conferences, and have been in discussions with people prior to General

Conference who want to know, what do you think about this? So the discussions are

real and those discussions vary too. The discussions I may have here in the United

States, Ill make it broad, and it changes from region to region, that's one way. Then you

go to other countries in the world and it's a completely different kind of discussion when

you're talking about the issue of human sexuality. So that's an interesting kind of, I dont

want to say balancing act, but it's an interesting road to travel.

SA: What brought you to a General Conference so young?

BB:

What brought me? My father. I wanted to just see what was going on in the

church. That was a period of time when there was a lot of dissent among young people.

Where I grew up and how I grew up with the family that I was in, and continue to be in,

there were a lot of questions about what was happening in our society. Some of those

were related to the Vietnam War. Others had to do with the draft that was going on.

There was just a lot of different debate. I was exposed to a lot of things that had to do

with the Civil Rights movement, and they were first-hand kind of experiences being in

some of that stuff, and then watching my uncle and father and what they did.
 So going to the church, this is General Conference, was just, you know why did

you go? I wanted to see what was going on in this thing. I heard about it and Dad said,

Come on over to Atlanta, and I said, Alright, and thats what I did. Second week, I

didnt go the first week.

SA:

Moving a bit forward, in your training as a pastor, was it talked about at all? Either

did your professors talk about the debate or was it part of your curriculum in any way?

BB:

I took a course, probably it was maybe my third year of seminary, on human

sexuality. It was an elective, and that was the most wide-open class I had been in, I

mean it was all over the place. The discussions were pretty frank. Sometimes you

wanted to just say, Man, I wouldnt have said that, I wouldnt have talked about that,

and then other times it was really kind of funny. And then there were those moments

when it was absolutely sobering, and you saw people where they were living out their

lives and the struggle that we had. I dont know if we debated doctrine so much there. I

dont know, its been a while ago, but I remember the class was pretty wide open.

We talked about LGBTQ kinds of things, we didnt call them that. Then we also

talked about heterosexualthere was a lot of discussion I remember about

pornography, what it was doing to people and the exploitation of individuals, women and

men.
SA: How would you say the debate has changed over your experience with it, which I

suppose ranges quite a long time?

BB:

It has become more entrenched and more rigid. It has come to a place where

there are two extremes, and both of the extremes seem to refuse to be able to talk to

one another. That is really troubling to me. I think I saw that a little bit 2008, really began

to see it raise its head in 2012 when we were in Tampa. Then when we came to

Portland this time, one of the things that had happened before, not a long time before,

but within a month before the General Conference convened, there was a manifesto that

was presented. I saw the manifesto as kind of this drawing this line in the sand saying,

This is going to be in your face. Youre not going to be able to step over us, ignore us,

avoid us, but youre going to have to see it. That became terribly confrontational and on

the other side there were statements that were just as rigid. That was terribly troubling

for me.

One of the things that I my response to this has been, how can I help to create

or be involved in relationship building? There was a young transsexual individual that

wrote me an email that said, Reverend Bergland I am so-and-so, and I will be coming

to your legislative committee and observing you. Okay that's great, I've never had that

happen before. They gave me their name, and the very first day that we came into

legislative committee work there was a gallery that was outside the bar of that

committee, and I wanted to find this person. So I began to talk to each person who was

sitting in the gallery. I introduced myself, Hey, Im Bob Bergland, and just want to thank

you for being here. I got to meet this person, I introduced myself and recognized their

name and I said, Hey, I got your email. I just wanted to thank you for that, and I hope
we can talk sometime during this. And there were those moments where we just kind of

said, Hey, how are you doing?, and there really wasn't any time.

But there was a moment towards the end of the first week where we got to sit

down and have a conversation. I was asking about their involvement in the church. It

was not a discussion that I wanted to see leading saying, Hey, tell me why you are,

whats going on? it wasn't that kind of conversation, but it was an opportunity for us to

say, Hey my name is Bob, they told me their name, and I found out where theyre from.

I think that's the place that we didn't allow have to happen in Portland, it just did not

happen. We circled the wagons around both sides, and we were going to be

impenetrable and you couldn't change our mind on anything. That's a new way Ive seen

the discussion go and the debate go.

SA: How you feel about the potential solution or the proposed commission, that the

Bishops set forward which would take a look at new petitions and hopefully formulate a

new approach to this conversation?

BB:

I was hopeful about that and when that was requested, there was a speech by

Adam Hamilton who spoke asking the bishops to lead and then we affirmed that for the

very first time in the church, United Methodist Church, for the bishops to do that, and

they came back with that proposal for a commission I was very hopeful. I think now I

don't know what's going to happen with it. Sadly, I think when you have a proposal like

that I think you've got to give it time to see what will come out of it. But almost

immediately after that commission was presented and adopted and affirmed in different

ways by different areas, General Conference was hardly over before there were Annual
Conferences that began to really create decisions and create situations that were

outside of that, it undermined it. There were then Episcopal leaders that began to

undermine it. At that point it moves back to that place where we are so rigid on the

edges.

SA: Can you give an example of something that happened?

BB:

Yes, there were, I don't know the number, several Annual Conferences, boards

ordained ministry, that said, We are going to approve anybody that comes before us.

One of the things it said in the Bishops proposal was that we would live with the

discipline, we would live with the discipline, and that was part of the covenant. I think

that's really at the heart of, if were going to live together as United Methodist people, as

Christian people, the only way I know to do that is in covenant relationship, and that

means I make a promise or you make a promise and we say, Are you there? You good

with that? Yeah, we will live with it that. Does it mean we will have disagreements?

Sure, that probably will happen, but we are bound together in this promise that holds us

together. That's done I think in the church first of all through baptism and then secondly,

with clergy, it is done through our ordination vows. The kinds of questions that were

asked when we are ordained, do you understand the discipline and the doctrine of the

United Methodist Church? And we say I do. And will you uphold it? I will. Thats a

covenant that binds us together.

Now when we break that, and that's what happened I think afterwards with

Boards of Ordained Ministry. There were some Episcopal leaders that have called for

biblical disobedience, acts of biblical disobedience. I know the Western Jurisdiction has
just elected and consecrated a woman who is openly lesbian, she is in married

relationship. Which as far as the covenant goes of who we are as clergy in the United

Methodist Church, that just shatters that covenant.

And so I don't know what it's going to do. Itll be interesting. I was hopeful when

that happened, I was hopeful that were going to make it through somehow, there's

going be something thatll be good. I think it will be positive and I hope it will be a

conversation that will bring a good direction to the church. However, after that happened

and the events even of this past week I'm very troubled and wonder how we will survive

some of those breaches of the covenant.

Sometimes its like what happens in divorced relationship. The couch youre

sitting on, I talk to couples who are going to get married and I talked to couples that are

married. Sometimes the conversations with the couples that are married, they come

here because that covenant, that trust, has shattered. What you do? That's one of the

hardest things to rebuild that, and there are some times when it is so absolutely broken

it can't be repaired. And then what do you do?

SA: In that situation, what do you recommend?

BB:

To the couple? First of all, I ask them I say, You know the only way we will be

able to move forward is, do you want to work this out? Do you want your marriage to

work?. And if they say yes then we have some work with, but they if they say, Oh, I

dont know, then Im going, Okay, how are we going to bring this to a close? How are

we going to make this separation happen in a way that we don't villainize the other, but

find a way that forgiveness can come even in the midst of brokenness?. Thats where I
go, but I always ask, Do you want this to work out?, and theyve got to say yes for it to

have a shot.

SA: So one of the things I noticed at General Conference was that Reconciling

Ministries Network supported a Black Lives Matter protest. And one of the things that

said to me was that a lot of people see the debate in this church the way that America

has, as a social justice issue. That in the same way groups of people were fighting for

the right to marriage in America civilly, that they see that in a similar light in the church.

And that is where Ive seen a lot of confusion and higher spirits for these people who are

very aware of their covenant and know how important it is to them and to the

community, but feel less and less within their conscience that they can maintain a

covenant that they believe is partially unjust. So I guess what Im asking is your reaction

to that anxiety and frustration that some people feel, and would you say that you would

agree with that interpretation of the situation or do you see it in a different way?

BB:

I talked to a Bishop after that demonstration, and I wasIt seemed to me that

morphing into Black Lives Matter and what was going on with the LGBTQ

demonstrations, there was a morph there that just didn't seem, it was kind like oil and

water. And you were going, wait a minute, what is this about? I can understand going

with the Black Lives Matter, I think that's and I understand that there are people of

color also involved in the LGBTQ, but to put that all together, it just seemed like

somebody was being taken advantage of, and I dont know who it was. I think if the

LGBTQ demonstrations I knew they were going to be there; I knew what the issues

were. The Black Lives Matter just came out of left field for me. I'm not saying that as
someone who is not familiar with some of the racial tensions that go on. That's how I

would say that. So I think part of your question was the covenant in that and Im not sure

I think I may have talked past that part.

SA: I wasnt very clear; I can rephrase that.

BB: Okay.

SA: For people who consider acceptance of LGBTQ people to mean that they get full

abilities to marry and be clergy in the church, that for them if they see that as a social

justice issue that they feel as though they may not be able to honor their covenant if they

believe that part of it is unjust. So I was wondering how you would react to that

statement and if you believe that you would interpret that differently, it is not a social

justice issue or that the church should be handling it in a different way.

BB:

Bishop Scott Jones I think has addressed this in a very good way. Theres a real

strength in his statement. He said he has been asked to do acts of defiance and he has

said, No I wont. And part of that again is lived in that covenant relationship. It's the

covenant relationship that says to me, this is how my life is. Do you offer yourself without

reserve to the itinerant system? Where a Bishop and a cabinet can say, Bob we want to

take you and your family and move to XYZ, and I say, Okay. It's the kind of thing

where the only way an itinerant system will work is if that covenant is held fast. There

then is the order that were part of. I'm an elder in the church. For four years I was head

of the Order of Elders in this conference, and weve tried to find ways that we strengthen
the relationship we have with each other, and the way you do it is with discipline and

also with covenant, the covenant of the order. When that begins to fracture the order

cant stay.

So I think that's where the church is. Scott Jones, Bishop Jones, he said, If

there comes a place where I can no longer live with that covenant or within that order,

then it's time for me to surrender my consecration and credentials and move somewhere

else to be in the worshiping community. I think the body of Christ is so much larger,

sometimes we think its just right here. And Ive served churches where there have been

some significant kind of disagreements that have happened in one case. I remember

talking to pastor about it and he said, Sometimes we won't understand why its so

difficult this side of heaven, but the one thing that we need to celebrate is that we will

one day all be together in the presence of Christ.

And there may be these places where I walk a different way. It happened in the

early church with Paul and Barnabas. They were really together at the beginning of their

ministry, and then they just couldn't do it anymore because they just had a disagreement

about a young man. Barnabas went one way, Paul went another. I dont know if Ive

answered your question.

SA: Thats okay, we can move on. Have you throughout your experience with the debate

and the doctrine changed your mind at all about how you feel? And if you havent, what

parts of your thinking are especially persuasive to you?

BB:

I spoke in committee about a piece of legislation, and the piece of legislation was

Paragraph 304.6 or whatever, and thats the part that has to do with ordination self-
avowed, practicing homosexuals will not be ordained or appointed. And there was a

piece of legislation that wanted to strike that whole paragraph. And at that point I spoke

and I said, The very first sentence says that the ordained clergy face all the pressures

and human frailties that are part of society, but we are expected to live to the highest

ideal. And that was a period and then the other statement came in. I think to erase all of

that means we dont stand for anything. It means I can live my life any way I want to.

And I spoke against striking the entire paragraph, didn't say anything about the piece

about homosexuality. If we want take that sentence out I think that's okay, but we cannot

take out the part that says we are called to live to the highest ideal.

If we begin to do that and we strike that, how do I ask people who come to be

baptized, do you renounce the spiritual forces of wickedness and reject the evil powers

of this world and repent of your sin? If there's no repentance because I dont have to ask

you to repent of anything. Yeah come on in, well take you, it doesnt matter, just keep

right on with whatevers going on. And then theres that other baptismal question, and it

is, do you accept the freedom and the power that God gives you to resist evil, injustice,

and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves? And if I don't live to that

because I say I dont have to live to any ideal, that doesnt mean anything.

So I think that if we are going to change the direction in the church we cant

diminish what's expected of clergy, that cannot be diminished any at all. We though,

have to become relational so that wherever people are we can meet them. It doesn't

have to be so much at a doctrinal place, hey how is it with you and prevenient grace?

Theyd be going, What the heck are you talking about?. Or how is it with you and the

doctrine of our human sexuality teachings? I dont know they are, I just know that I

need, I'm a sinner who stands in need of God's grace. And that's what I have to offer as

a pastor.
 So however that relationship can develop, just like again what happened in my

life. I'm not going to say, Okay youve got to be all figured out with your sexuality before

well even let you in the doors of the church. Thats not where I am. We have to be in

ministry to all people, but clergy cannot, it can't be that we arent held to the highest

ideal. Does that make sense? That's where I have been for quite a while. If we change

that language I don't again the first part of the paragraph I don't think needs to

change, ever.

SA: So youre saying that really whatever we determine those highest ideals to be,

whatever they say about human sexuality, what we determine the highest ideals to be,

pastors should be expected to hold to those ideals.

BB:

Those are laid out pretty clearly. Those are laid out pretty clearly in the Book of

Discipline in what are the chargeable offenses for clergy? And some of those are moral,

there are others that have to do with undermining the ministry of another pastor, there

are those places that have to do with really theft, those kinds of things, a whole series of

things. And it's not just for clergy, there's also the same chargeable offenses for laity.

and so there are these high ideals. I think our Lord had those same kind of statements.

The rich young ruler, what went on with him. He knew every commandment that

there was, and he kept every one of them. It says in the Scriptures that Jesus loved him,

and he said, Go, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, then come and follow

me. And he couldnt do it; he went away grieving because he had all kinds of stuff. I

think in that moment am my willing to surrender my whole life to the cause of Christ? Put

all of that under the Lordship of Christ? That's pretty enormous, that's kind of that high
ideal. What does it mean to live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ? A lot of that is

surrender. What does it mean to surrender myself?

There's a guy from Australia named Mark Sayers, and he talks about the

disappearing church and he also talks about a road trip that changed the world. Mark

Sayer, one of the things that he said, is we have given up devotion. We have

surrendered devotion either for entertainment or just for self-satisfaction, but were

called to devotion in this walk with Christ.

SA: Thank you. So have you had any conversations or facilitated any conversations

here in your congregation or in other places that youve served about the debate?

BB: Yes.

SA: How have those gone?

BB:

Theyve been interesting. I think there are ways to have conversation that will

absolutely create animosity, and itll raise the ire of everybody in the room. And I mean

okay, were going to battle it out. I think there are other ways to talk about it and say,

Okay, where are we? Here we are. What is it that binds us together? Our baptism binds

us together, were one. Now let's look at this, and we begin to talk about it.

I think you were there the first week when we got into all that crazy stuff about

Rule 44. Rule 44 wasn't, I think it wasn't prepared very well to even be presented. The

people who were going to lead the thing said, Were not sure what were doing. But I

think the intent of that was how can we have this conversation? How can we talk
together? One of the great things about the legislative committee that I was in, is I think

we practiced the spirit of that rule without the rule. That was only possible with the

leader that we elected to chair that committee and the subcommittee leaders. That was

significant because there was a huge, huge range of opinion in that group. But we didnt

blow up and I thought that was pretty remarkable. None of our leaders passed out

either.

SA: I was there when that happened.

BB: Were you really?

SA: Very worrying. So in any of these conversations that youve heard that have gone

well, what do you think particularly made those conversations go well?

BB:

Covenant. We looked at what held us together, and we realized that we are one

in Christ. We may have different opinions, but well be able to talk about it because there

is that relationship. And it sounds pretty simplistic when I say that, just a pat answer, but

I really think thats what it was.

SA: Have you had a conversation about this with anyone in the LGBTQ community? If

so, what perspective did they have?

BB:
 You know, I dont know if I have. One of the things that happened with me, is

when I came back to North CarolinaIve been on a leave since the end of May all the

way through, and have not really spoken a whole lot. There are people who are on the

delegation and Ive gotten to know across 8 to 10 years, who I know where they are and

they know where I am in this. We are able to discuss it pretty openly and freely. I havent

had an opportunity really to discuss it in a forum where that would happen.

SA: Thank you. So, if you could speak to or ask a question of, and Im sure youve done

this a lot, of someone who does not share your viewpoint, and this could be one of many

viewpoints, what question would you ask them?

BB:

Tell me about yourself. Thats where Id start. If I begin at a point where I dont

care about whats going on in thereits really like a statement, I just read that Elie

Wiesel I just read. He said, The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. So if I just

come to a person and I dont need to know about you, then I dont know where thats

going to go. But if I can find out and take the time where we begin to have a

conversation that says, we begin to look at the things that are part of the very heart of

us, suddenly the conversation changes. Thats what I think. So thats my question.

SA: I asked that question of several of the other pastors that Ive talked to, and one of

them said if the doctrine were to change, and if all of the language that prevents LGBTQ

people from being married, being clergy, all of those sorts of thingshis phrase was,

what slippery slope do you see us going down? A little context for that. Some people

that the pastor has spoken to said that if we change this language it would be a change
to the ideals that we hold, and if we remove those then there would be consequences.

So a clearer question is, what do you believe the consequences of changing the

language would be?

BB:

I think there are some official documents in the United Methodist Church. One,

we look at Scripture in all things, what does Scripture tell us? We also look at the Book

of Discipline and that changes. We also have a Book of Worship, and thats adopted by

the General Conference. There is a part of the liturgy of Christian marriage, the

covenant of Christian marriage, which says, The covenant of marriage was established

by God who created us male and female for each other. In His sacrificial love gave us

the example for the love of a husband and wife. So-and-so and so-and-so come

together now to give themselves to each other in this covenant. In the context of

Christian marriage as its outlined right now, thats where we are. That would change, I

think, it would have to change. I think if we truly are a world-wide church, how is that

going to be understood in say in the Congo, or Nigeria? Hows it going to be understood

in Costa Rica? Where you find people who are being called into a relationship with

Christ from wherever their life is.

We go on mission trips sometimes to countries like that and they say, Please

refrain from using alcohol and tobacco products, because a lot of the people who are

coming to Christ, those are seen as the things that separate, and you dont want to

justSo I think that slippery slope, I guess it would have a tremendous impact on the

world-wide nature of the United Methodist Church.

I think the understanding of marriage right now; marriage is not automatic in the

United Methodist Church. If someone comes in and says, Hey, I want to get married,
youve got to talk to me. I always say we will talk this many times, and then I say I

reserve the right to say no. I have said no to people, and there are times I wish I had.

I think again, that slope, the consequences of that are so enormous that I dont

know if it would be easily identifiable. I think theres liturgical consequences to decisions

that we make, what is that going to look like? I think there will are relational kinds of

things when it comes to the Central Conferences. There are surely going to be

consequences between regions of the United States and different congregations. There

are some congregations that are very progressive and others that are very traditional.

So there would be consequences there.

SA: Do you see those as positive or negative?

BB:

I guess its how we deal with it. If we continue to deal with it like were dealing

with it now, its negative. If we will not find the way to talk to one another, and if we will

not find the things that unite us and that we share in common, well tear ourselves apart.

Well just say, Sarah I dont believe what you believe and Im not going to listen to you

anymore, or you say, Bob, I dont believe what you believe and Im not going to listen to

you anymore. So right there, theres nothing positive thats going to happen there. We

have dug our heels in to disagree.

SA: So, second to last question. Do you foresee a way that all pastors can serve their

congregations with integrity? Regardless of what they believe about this debate. Do you

see their being a way to change the language of the discipline to allow pastors who

believe that what would be, I forget what your term was, acts of division or acts of
defiance, who believe that is the right thing to do? Is there a way that the United

Methodist Church could house both those things in terms of the language of the

discipline?

BB:

If the thing that binds us together is covenant, and if we cannot live in covenant

with each other, then it falls apart. We have to live in the context of covenant

relationship. Weve got to be bold in this in the United Methodist Church where we do

that out of love for one another. It has to be lived in covenant.

SA:

What Im asking is there any change that could be made to that covenant?

BB:

I think so, yeah, I think in that particular paragraph. What are the ideals that we

are called to live to? And we agree well live to those. There may be a removal of the

real specificity of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teachings, which reads

as an attachment. That can happen. Weve got to find the ways its going to continue on

in everything we do. One of the things that happened in the Presbyterian Church when

they had their division, they thought, Okay, weve taken care of it, theres nothing thats

going to divide us again, and there already is and it has to do with divestment. Youre

going, wait a minute. So I think theres a place whereI heard this General Conference

described as, there were two extremes and the center rose up in the church. And the

center was like the parents in the front seat of a car going on a long trip saying, You

guys calm down in the back. And that has to happen.

SA: Thank you. That is the end of my official questions. Is there anything else that you

would like to say or that you wish I had asked you about?

BB: Nope, I appreciate you taking your time to do this.

SA: Absolutely, you as well.

BB: Okay.