Anne Interview

Sarah Arney (SA): So, I would like to begin this interview by

playing you something that I heard at General Conference, and
this is a clip from one of the Bishops beginning to start some
group discussions.
Bishop Palmer: So I want to tell you a quick story. The Council of
Bishops a couple of years ago was having table conversations
about some of our most challenging issues in the life of the
church and the several cultures that we represent around the
globe. One of our colleague bishops at the table where I was
sitting said, We all need to take a step back. There was a
pregnant pause, as you might imagine, not knowing what would
be said next by this particular bishop, who Ill not throw under the
bus as we speak. He said, Why dont we try telling our story,
before we take our stand. I found those words memorable, and
I'm grateful for them to this day, no matter what the subject is
before us. So would you see this as a time for you to tell your
story, and you dont have to give every detail of your life, but as it
relates relevantly to this conversation that weve been engaged in
over many decades around human sexuality. And as you begin
that, the statement is coming, that ought to be available at the
heart, but think about telling a story, telling your story, before you
take your stand.
SA: So I felt that was very relevant to the discussion that were
about to have, and my intention for this interview to be talking
about your experiences and your values around debate rather
than more polarizing things about which camp you belong to or
kind of strict polarizing things like that. So would you mind saying
your name, your occupation, and a bit about yourself?
Rev. Anne (A): I grew up Presbyterian but then became
Methodist when my mother got a job at a Methodist Church. I
used to be a teacher. I had this call to ministry that I was not very
happy about, but when you follow God's call blessings happen.
Even if you go kicking and screaming.

SA: Thank you. So could you tell me a bit about your call to
ministry?

A:
Well, like I said, well two of my great-grandfathers and my
grandfather were Presbyterian ministers, and my father and my
mother worked in Presbyterian churches before I was born and
then when I was little.
So we moved here, which is one of the places actually my
great-grandfather was a pastor. My mother got a job at a small
Presbyterian Church at the beach, which is not small anymore.
But it was a part-time organist, choir director and so she got a
quarter-time and then she got a three-quarters time that became
a full-time at a Methodist Church. So we all became Methodist,
and my father was not very happy, but thats okay. Then went
away to college, I tried the Wesley Foundation; they were snobby
people and didnt talk to me, so I was like Forget this. I ended up
dating Catholic boy, so I went to the Catholic Church, and then
when that relationship didn't work out I said, You know, I miss my
church. I started going back to the Methodist Church, and I was
in a small town at that point and they welcomed me with open
arms. They let me lead the little kids bell choir, they put me on
staff parish relations committee, and just really affirmed that I
was a grown-up, that they really valued me.
Then I started volunteering back in youth ministry for the
conference. And during a worship service I got my call to ministry.
In that I started shaking and crying which is not a normal pattern
of worship for me, and I just knew that I was called to ministry.
Well that wasnt very convenient. I had small children, my
husband at the time owned a small business, itineracy was really
not a good plan. So I argued with God, but I got into divinity
school anyway even though I applied on the last day, just tobut
I got in. Through the experiences in Divinity school and field
education further confirmed that, whether it was in my tenure
plan or not, God had a plan for me to be on the elder track. So
here I am. That was probably more than you wanted to know.

SA: No that was great, thank you. So how important would you
say that your culture is shaping your religious beliefs? So this
could be being an American, living in the American South,
whatever that means to you.

A:
It can't help but color, because it colors the way you see
everything. I as a white female, I don't think about getting pulled
over in a car just because I'm black. Two people were shot in the
last 48 hours. There's things that I don't have to think about, but I
do have to think about being a female. Gender discrimination in
the South is real, even in the church. I think more than anything
else, it modifies. We want things to be black and white. Well
they're just not. Life is just not black-and-white, but it's our
experiences that help us see the shades of gray, and see God at
work in the kind of mosaic that life is.
So for example, homosexuality in the church. 20 years ago I
had homosexual friends, but I dont know about the church. It
says in the Book of Discipline, the Bible has a couple passages
that are kind of harsh, so it must be bad. It must be wrong. But as
time has passed, and as culture has become more accepting of
homosexuality, you get the opportunity to meet and see people. I
have friends, there is no doubt that they are called to serve God.
And I really dont care who theyre married to. That's just it's not
important; what's important is that they're willing to love and
serve God and serve their neighbor. Some of that is being 20 and
being 46. There's a lot of different things that I used to be really
adamant about in my little box that Im like, hmm. So does that
make sense?

SA: So delving into that a little more, well go back in time a bit.
When you were growing up, what did the debate sound like to
you? Or how people talk about human sexuality in the church?

A:
Sexuality was not really talked about a whole lot other than,
then don't have sex with your boyfriend and get pregnant in high
school or middle school there was a whole rash of people in
middle school. But other than that, we might have had one youth
group night where the boys went one place and the girls went the
other, but obviously it didn't make a giant impact on my brain.
But it certainly was not, it was more of a whisper sort of thing
than something that people would talk about openly, or argue
about even.

SA: How important would you say it was when you went to
divinity school or seminary? Did any of your professors talk about
it or did any of your peer students talk about it?

A:
Oh yeah, certainly. A definite topic of conversation and
classwork. I had a good friend who had grown up United
Methodist, but because of the stance at that time on
homosexuality she became an Episcopal priest. And that just
made me sad because she was amazing. If I remember correctly
she was a delegate to General Conference when she was in
undergrad. So we lost that passion and leadership.
It was certainly a topic all of the denominations, no matter
which one you're inThere was one guy that was Dinitarian,
which they believed in God the Father and God the Son were God
but not the Holy Spirit. He was in a class on the Trinity with me, so
that was really interesting. When I was in school was right around
the time that the Episcopal Church decided to embrace openly
homosexual priests, and there was a guy that I knew that
became, and he was Methodist and very conservative, and he
became, he converted to be an Anglican Mission in America
priest. And they use the 1768 prayer book, and the robes are like
it's 1700, and homosexuality is bad and wrong. As are women in
ministry, and I'm assuming people of color but I dont know that
for sure.

SA: You mentioned it was a part of your classwork, what was that
like?

A:
It was part of what we talked about naturally in theology.
How does that social construct and where do we see that in
theology? I did not take a class that was specifically dealing with
homosexuality as part of the issue of the class. But it was in my
counseling class.

SA: Is that a class that teaches you how to minister to people?

A:
It was a class on ministering to people that are different
than you are. So I wrote a paper on ministering to Native
Americans, but homosexuality was part of the conversation.

SA: So how would you say that the debate has changed over the
past perhaps 20 or 30 years? From something that is not talk
about or argued about, to what it is today?

A:
Well, like American politics in general it's just become
completely polarized. Bishop whats-his-name you just played

SA: Bishop Palmer?

A:
Palmer thank you. We can't seem to listen to the other
people, whichever the other people is. We have to just scream
about our position, and people have been just so unwilling to find
any sort of middle ground where we can talk about it safely. I
understand if you're 70 this very uncomfortable for you. This is
something you did not, you didnt talk about sex at all, much less
homosexuality. As a pastor I hear that, and I understand that that
is difficult, and how people are afraid to lose the church and that
its going to fall apart and what would that look like. I understand
that camp, but I also understand the camp where I'm gay but I
love Jesus. Am I just supposed to ignore one or the other? I dont
know that that's quite fair.
I also don't think the way that people often read and use the
Bible as proof texting, Look it says this, so this means youre
going to hell. Well A, we dont get to choose whos going to hell
and not, and B, I think we have to look at the greater culture
when were reading the Bible of when it was written. Because
again, I couldnt be in the place that I am in 33 AD.
There's passages in the Bible that say women must not
speak in church, and that's why lots of women have not been able
to. But I also see in the Bible people like Lydia, and Dorcas, and
the people that were leaders in their synagogues and groups of
believers. So I just can't say that just because youre homosexual
that you can't be a called minister and that you can't be an active
church member. I just can't reconcile that, but I can understand
why for some people it's very uncomfortable.
Because if you knew 50 years ago, if you knew a gay person
it was probably some crazy uncle versus just part of normal
people that you know. Because you didnt talk about it.
SA: Has your opinion, youve talked about this a little bit, from
your change from when you were 20 to now. How has your
opinion of either LGBTQ persons or the doctrine in the church
changed over time?

A:
In high school I had friends that were gay, but they weren't
like BFF friends, they were just friends at school. But my first
husband and I went to visit his sister when our girls were really
little babies, like car seat babies, and suddenly realized that she
was gay and hadnt bothered to tell us. That was very hurtful
because we were all close, but I think because we went to church
I think she mightve assumed that we would judge her. That was
certainly not the case. We were angry because she didnt trust us
to tell us, but it all worked out. They ended up moving down the
street from us for a while. Then I got divorced and they're the
ones that I miss the most. She's now married to her partner and
theyve been together a long time.
So suddenly it was personal and right there. Not someone I
could just not pay attention to because they were just in my
Calculus class. So, like when youre a kid youre a Carolina fan,
but when you go to Carolina the color blue becomes very
important, and dark blue is ugly. So homosexual people are very
nice, blah, blah, blah. But suddenly theyre a part of your family,
and they're not they anymore, theyre just family. And that's
where I started just to wrestle with the whole issue of
homosexuality in the church. She had been a faithful member of a
campus ministry in her undergrad experience, and had walked
away from the church. Now I know because of that, but I didnt
know that at the beginning. But God is about love and wholeness.
God is not about hate and bigotry and breaking people apart and
making you live in-authentically. Jesus lived authentically. He was
a man, he was a Jew; he did manly things, he did Jewish things,
but he also broke rules that were stupid.
So I guess it has deepened over time, but I'm starting to get
really angry and frustrated that we can't have a conversation and
figure out how to deal with this. I just almost wonder if we just
need to wait a little longer till some of these people die that are
so adamantly against homosexuality to the point they won't listen
and have a conversation. Did that make sense? Sometimes I start
talking and I lose track of where I was going.

SA: Have you or any church that you've been at or our group that
you've been a part of, taken steps to discuss the debate within
the church?

A:
Weve talked about it some here, we definitely talked about
it in staff meeting. Our former children's director said that if they
had made a decision to welcome homosexuals at General
Conference that she would be leaving. Then she ended up retiring
anyway so it became neither here nor there.
 We have a Mama Bear's group that meets here, parents, well
I think theyre all women, but have LGBTQ children of all ages.
The lady that let you in, she's in that group, and her daughter is
older than I am. But there definitely people in this church that
would walk away, but there's definitely people in this church that
are gay, too. Theres both spectrums here.

SA: What have you heard in those conversations that you've been
a part of that have stood out to you, either in a positive or
negative way?

A:
It says in the Bible its an abomination. The Bible also says
we can't eat bacon. Ive heard hurt, pain that the church is not
accepting of who people are. And the youth, they just don't care if
youre gay, straight. Other than probably some on the fringe, but
most teenagers I know they could care less what your sexuality
looks like to you. They just care if you care about them and that
you can hangout, eat cookies, whatever. I think some of the boys
are less comfortable with homosexuality because it scary, but
most girls I know just don't care. They all have gay friends. My
girls have transgender, gay, whats the one you call it when
youre neither gender? I can never remember the term, but
anyway, and that's all at the high school just around the corner.
SA: Have you in any of these conversations talked to someone
who was a part of the LGBTQ community, and if so, what
perspective did they bring to the debate how it affects them?

A:
Its like, I have a couple that are friends of mine, and one of
them is on my board for campus ministry. They dont go to this
church, they go to a different one, but theyve kept it quiet that
theyve gotten married. Im sure anybody that goes to their
church would know that they are a couple. Theyve been together
a really long time. They have dogs together, Dalmatians, theyre
really cute. But she didn't feel comfortable kind of announcing
that they had gotten married, and I'm not sure if it was on
Facebook or whatever. From what I see their families seem very
accepting, so I dont know if it's the church or just the South. I'm
not entirely sure, I havent talked to her about that, but she told
me in a side conversation that they had gotten married versus,
hey guess what we did this weekend!? So its that feeling that
you're in a quandary. How you reconcile your faith knowing that
God has things for you to do, but there are people that open up a
Bible and say you're going to hell?

SA: What values are aspects of your faith do you use or rely on
when you are having a conversation about the debate or trying to
facilitate a conversation?
A: Unpack that a little bit for me.

SA: So when you have a conversation with someone who agrees

or disagrees with you and you're trying to have a productive
conversation or you're trying to minister to someone, what is
most important to you to exhibit in that kind of conversation?

A:
Love and grace and really listening to people. Every single
person in the Bible except for Jesus made tons of mistake. David's
list of mistakes is like this long. Yet God used David who was a
murderer, philander, so why can't God give us grace? I think God
does, and that's why we need to give each other grace. And you
can love people without agreeing with them, you can listen to
people without agreeing, you can see their side of the story even
if you dont share it.

SA: How you react to the statement that happens in the other
direction, that people on the other side of the debate would say
they love people in the LGBTQ community, they just can't accept
their, I guess they would say, their choice?

A: And there's a difference right there. Is it a choice? I really don't

think so, because who would choose to make your life harder? At
least in our culture today in 2016, being LGBTQ does not make life
easier. Just like you wouldnt choose to be a Duke fan. Its just not
logical. That's where I think part of the issue is, that people have
been told research has shown, 50 years ago, that you can change
homosexuality, its a choice. And I just dont think it is. Pretty
much all the people I know that are any of those alphabet letters,
its been since they were little. Its not just, oh, suddenly today
I'm going to decide. I just don't see that.
I have a couple of friends with transgender children that are
young and have recently transitioned to being called by their
other gendered name, and dressing, and everything. One of them
has even in California gotten it legally done. And the kid has
always gravitated towards female everythingdress, speech,
toys. Are you going to tell me that a three-year-old chooses to do
that? I think that's where, until you get to know somebody's story,
and understand that this isnt a choice, that this is just me. I think
that's a place that we can start to have a conversation to
understand that people are different. I am never going to eat a
Brussels sprout. It's just not going to happen. I hate them. I hate
smell, I hate the way they look, Im not going to eat one. But you
can love them, and that is okay with me, but I'm not going to eat
one.

SA:
If you could speak to, or ask a question of someone on the
other side of the debate, or of a different viewpoint, I could be one
of many, what question would you ask them?
A:
Help me understand where you're coming from. Parentheses
without yelling or being angry. Help me understand why you think
what you do.

SA: What would you like the conversation to look like? Either at
General Conference or one-on-one.
A:
Circling back to one of your earlier questions, culturally. In
Africa, culturally, homosexuality means youre probably going to
be killed, and for the United Methodist Church as body to accept
homosexuality makes it difficult in Africa because of the way their
culture is. So I just wonder if it's time, like the British Methodist
Church to have the American Methodist Church, the African
Methodist Church because our cultures are so different. It used to
be we pushed our white culture on people in Asia and Africa
because we were the great missionaries coming to save them
from paganism. But we realized that was not what God wanted
us to do. So we can't be paternalistic and push our beliefs on
another culture, but I also think the culture here in the United
States is different. Homosexuality is legal and marriage between
people of the same gender is legal. We can't just ignore that fact.
So I guess we could be like the Anglican Communion where were
cousins and we get together once in a while, but we can make
decisions that apply differently because we live in different
contexts.
I know at General Conference theyve tried to get people to
talk at tables and have conversations. I don't really know what
that looked like other than just hearing about it. Did you get a
deep relationship with these people or was it just a chitchat at a
cocktail party kind of conversation? I think people need to spend
time with other people seeing what they see. Hang out with the
sixty-five-year-old lady who, this is very scary to her and hear how
shes afraid and doesn't understand and can't grasp what it
means. But also for the sixty-five-year-old lady to hang out and
see how God is working through this gay couple or this
transgender person.
Just the pain students are dealing with. We had a time at
one of the camps summer and the preacher invited people to give
testimony, but there is a huge spread of depression and mental
illness, feeling alone. I think that's a whole lot more important to
address than who youre married to. Kids are 13 and thinking
about suicide. I think thats a whole lot more important if you're
Mr. and Mr., or Mr. and Mrs.

SA: I asked some of the other pastors I've spoken to that question,
and one of them asked, when you think about this debate, this
conflict within the United Methodist Church and what could come
out of it, what is at stake for you?
A:
Hurt on both sides. Its painful to me that people are so
upset. Its scary to think if they had voted at General Conference
one way or the other, there are things that are going to fracture,
just watching what happened in the Episcopal church. Churches
left the denomination, they had to buy their buildings, theres
ugliness. Just in practicality it affects my job. If the Methodist
Church doesn't exist I dont have a job anymore, and I like my job.
I don't mind not knowing what I'm having for supper, but I do
mind not knowing if something I believe in is going to exist in a
year or two. I need a backup plan. I love my Masters of Divinity,
but its not particularly applicable to other stuff.

SA: Thank you. That concludes my official set of questions. Is

there anything else you would like to say or that you wish I had
asked you about?

A: (Silently says no.)

SA: Alright, thank you very much.