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1. Countermass Weapon (13 replies)

2. Lego Guns (8 replies)
3. Improvised M60 fuze igniter (0 replies)
4. MMA Instruction topic. (0 replies)
5. Magicians Arsenal Improv. Weapons. (8 replies)
6. Flare gun conversion to fire 38 special pistol rounds (20 replies)
7. Improvised firearm with Ramset Cartridges (23 replies)
8. Improvised sap gloves. (24 replies)
9. PCP Airguns (7 replies)
10. Improvised and other unusual weapons & devices. (15 replies)
11. Captive Piston Device DS-201 (14 replies)
12. Armored Bobcat (52 replies)
13. How To: Make A Golf Ball Gun (5 replies)
14. Armor-piercing hand grenade (29 replies)
15. Ionization of gasses (6 replies)
16. Planar Shaped Charge (5 replies)
17. Article on IED tactics in Iraq (24 replies)
18. Chechen Self-Made Weapons (44 replies)
19. 66mm Practice Rocket (3 replies)
20. Keychain Gun (14 replies)
21. fighting adrenaline (22 replies)
22. improvised gun barrels (10 replies)
23. Thors Armor (12 replies)
24. Non-MACE (60 replies)
25. SHERPA (Suicidal High Explosive Reactive Personal Armor) (22 replies)
26. Where to get a taser {not online} (16 replies)
27. Pen Grenade (14 replies)
28. Homemade/ Custom Knives (19 replies)
29. Titanium and metal detectors (18 replies)
30. Another(and often overlooked) aspect of Forensic Science [Lethality of Edged Weapons] (9 replies)
31. The battery powered flamethrower (4 replies)
32. Fire Extinguisher Paintball Gun (12 replies)
33. Flexible Baton (17 replies)
34. Gamo PR-15 360 m/s lead ball .177 (22 replies)
35. Caselman Air-powered Machine Gun (27 replies)
36. Microwave oven gun patent (30 replies)
37. Stop Sticks (38 replies)
38. Matchhead gun powder (18 replies)
39. Hot shot (12 replies)
40. Burning Anti-Freeze (and other nominal fuels) (16 replies)
41. "The Box O' Truth" (2 replies)
42. Use for a small Petard (35 replies)
43. nbk's hybrid gyrojet [Archive-ish] (40 replies)
44. Phillipino homemade guns, paltiks, ect. (7 replies)
45. Improvised gun making ..article from net (4 replies)
46. Home Made Flamethrower (10 replies)
47. Automatic BB gun (16 replies)
48. Question about improvised firearms/guns (btw ive searched) (6 replies)
49. Spetsnaz ballistic knives (18 replies)
50. the CO2 cannon (1 replies)
51. The Cake Launcher (15 replies)
52. Automatic PIR Gas Sprayer (OTC) (2 replies)
53. True Capabilty of commercial cattle prods (39 replies)
54. PVC Plans for a sniper rifle??? (8 replies)
55. Creating a "simple" EMP (11 replies)
56. Plausible Deniability Poison for knife blades (63 replies)
57. Wolverine (X-Men) suit with big fuck-off claws! (4 replies)
58. The PEST project - completed... (4 replies)
59. Oh you just know who's making these...Very interesting (0 replies)
60. lethal model rockets? (23 replies)
61. Nylon projectiles, link (31 replies)
62. WWII's Paper Bomb Attack - cunning Japs! (29 replies)
63. Bat Bombs Away! (1 replies)
64. Adaption of things in toy shops & other gadgets (32 replies)
65. H2SO4-in-a-can (100 replies)
66. Wasilla [Alaska] man constructing 18-foot-tall not-a-robot (33 replies)
67. Unusual spud gun fuels (20 replies)
68. Non-solvent flamethrower fuel mixes (23 replies)
69. Pen Gun - any good plans (11 replies)
70. HE potato cannon rounds (8 replies)
71.
72.
69.
70.
71. Remote Stun Gun (34 replies)
72. EMP device (22 replies)
73. Freezing People to Death! (6 replies)
74. Improvised Cluster Grenade Ideas (6 replies)
75. Rock Salt (14 replies)
76. Iron palms (13 replies)
77. Building a bb-gun (21 replies)
78. Blowgun Mouthpiece Filter (7 replies)
79. hybrid air cannons (2 replies)
80. Spigot Grenade/Area Denial Mine (14 replies)
81. Pnuematic air cannon sprinkler valve? (7 replies)
82. Recoilless Weapon (36 replies)
83. liquid armor (20 replies)
84. Any new guns? (19 replies)
85. .50 muzzle loading derringer. (20 replies)
86. Electric bullets (5 replies)
87. Special ammo for slingshots (22 replies)
88. Fragmentation help! (1 replies)
89. Rail-cannon plans (2 replies)
90. Prop Pistol Flamer (8 replies)
91. Cheap/Powerfull Spudgun <15$ (3 replies)
92. Improvised .22 Handgun (14 replies)
93. Mach 1 Paintball Rifle (26 replies)
94. Beretta 38a tech question. (4 replies)
95. Springfield M-6 (12 replies)
96. .17 armor piercing? (46 replies)
97. Bullets without cartridge casing... (1 replies)
98. Replacement of the stinger? (6 replies)
99. one-way bulletproof glass (1 replies)
100. Improvised Handgun - some thoughts (61 replies)
101. Primer mine (26 replies)
102. AOW .410 & 380 flashlight guns (26 replies)
103. grenade (10 replies)
104. Stopping the bullet (50 replies)
105. Rocket proppelant for horizontal launch (33 replies)
106. Bird Bombs for signal guns? (14 replies)
107. PB grenade (6 replies)
108. Zip Gun SEMI AUTO and PMJB (12 replies)
109. Lighting Link (4 replies)
110. Pack Howitzer pics (1 replies)
111. A neat item on EBay..... (5 replies)
112. AC556 vs mini 14 (6 replies)
113. .22 semi auto action (15 replies)
114. M3 Multi-Role Anti-Armor Anti-Personnel Weapon System (MAAWS) (18 replies)
115. Suggestions for zip gun? (14 replies)
116. potato cannon, carbide powered.. (22 replies)
117. Intresting Homemade Weapon pics... (6 replies)
118. Stink bomb (13 replies)
119. Remote pipebombs (3 replies)
120. Explosively formed projectiles and advanced warhead design (1 replies)
121. Blowpipes (28 replies)
122. Soft Kill Claymore (7 replies)
123. High pressure electric valve... (10 replies)
124. Accurate, Long Range SC's? (11 replies)
125. Home-made cannons, howitzers and mortars (133 replies)
126. 20mm Recoilless Launcher? (6 replies)
127. Suppressed Urban Sniper Rifle, Small Caliber, .22LR (148 replies)
128. Exo-electric Armor (29 replies)
129. Beryllium Pipebombs (15 replies)
130. Improvised Concealable weapon (140 replies)
131. Cards as weapons (45 replies)
132. the garrot (11 replies)
133. Stun grenade (0 replies)
134. Gauss Pistol (16 replies)
135. household improvised weapons list (5 replies)
136. "In the Line of Fire" Resin Gun (8 replies)
137. erosol weapons (27 replies)
138. Rocket Fuel Composition (15 replies)
139. COB's In & Out (15 replies)
140. gass assist (11 replies)
141. shot gun shell grenades - Archive File (0 replies)
142. Cosh - Archive File (0 replies)
143. Mortar tubes - Archive File (0 replies)
144. Low-Tec solution to SU-4. - Archive File (0 replies)
145. De Lisle Carbine - Archive File (0 replies)
146. Disposable Paper Shotgun - Archive File (7 replies)
147. glock 17 - Archive File (0 replies)
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148. Car exaust flames - Archive File (9 replies)
149. Pineapple - Archive File (0 replies)
150. FNP90 - Archive File (1 replies)
151. Does anyone have plans for a cannon? - Archive File (0 replies)
152. Hopping Mine - Archive File (1 replies)
153. Quick and easy explosive packets... (19 replies)
154. stun gun (500k or 625k volts) - Archive File (3 replies)
155. Hot oil as a weapon? - Archive FIle (0 replies)
156. things to make with plastic easter eggs - Archive File (0 replies)
157. big magnet gun - Archive File (0 replies)
158. Slings - Archive File (5 replies)
159. Anti personel gas mine - Archive File (2 replies)
160. 37 mm grenade launchers - Archive File (0 replies)
161. 2 part explosives by Agent Blak - Archive File (3 replies)
162. "Fire Ant" - Archive File (1 replies)
163. Silencer For The Irish - Archive File (0 replies)
164. Home made Tazers - Archive File (0 replies)
165. switchblades - Archive File (0 replies)
166. Ice Projectile (4 replies)
167. impact grenades - Archive File (2 replies)
168. Traffic stops (27 replies)
169. Dogs as weapons (80 replies)
170. Cheap Guided Missile? (95 replies)
171. Wireless "Plasma" Taser (31 replies)
172. Pellet Pistols - Archive File (1 replies)
173. nbk2000's Shotgun Grenade - Archive File (9 replies)
174. Easy ways to harm attackers... - Archive File (99 replies)
175. uxo info - Archive File (0 replies)
176. Zipped Zippo Zip - Archive File (0 replies)
177. 2 barreled pump shotgun? - Archive File (0 replies)
178. Blowgun ranges - Archive File (0 replies)
179. TASER Videos - Archive File (0 replies)
180. pellet guns - Archive File (0 replies)
181. HESH Information/Improvisation - Archive File (0 replies)
182. windrunner - Archive File (1 replies)
183. Pellet Gun to Airsoft Gun - Archive File (0 replies)
184. US military have made a phaser!!! - Archive File (3 replies)
185. Trying to make a paintball/dye gun. - Archive File (0 replies)
186. death ray - Archive File (5 replies)
187. Air Pressure Spud Cannon Good Seal? - Archive File (0 replies)
188. Plans for Rocket Launchers - Archive File (1 replies)
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190. CBU version 2 (8 replies)
191. Very cool Rocket Plans (1 replies)
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194. Model Rocket Missile (49 replies)
195. Crossbow Trigger - Archive File (0 replies)
196. buttmaster - Archive File (5 replies)
197. blowguns and genetic fingerprints - Archive File (0 replies)
198. Crossbows in Australia - Archive File (11 replies)
199. Actual Pellet Gun - Archive File (0 replies)
200. Crossbows - Archive File (0 replies)
201. Rifle Launched Grenade - Archive File (0 replies)
202. chlorine & milk - Archive File (0 replies)
203. INFRASOUND (1 replies)
204. 3/4" Impact Rocket - Archive file (0 replies)
205. shaped charges/annm - Archive file (0 replies)
206. Exploding pellets revisited. - Archive file (33 replies)
207. Improved airgun performance - Archive file (4 replies)
208. Strength of Aluminum (armor) - Archive file (18 replies)
209. anyone made explosive rat/mouse traps? - Archive file (45 replies)
210. Military Napalm (26 replies)
211. Homemade Nuke (128 replies)
212. What to do with a Ramset gun? (9 replies)
213. "Scew Action" Firearms (22 replies)
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215. Semi-Auto Mayhem (2 replies)
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218. Powerlet Propelled Grenades (18 replies)
219. 40mm Practice Grenade Conversion (61 replies)
220. Bottles (26 replies)
221. Harpoon Gun (7 replies)
222. cartridge flame thrower (15 replies)
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224. White Noise (8 replies)
225.
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226. Road Patriot (19 replies)
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228. OSS sleeve knife (44 replies)
229. "Like a swiss watch" (0 replies)
230. BB Machineguns (59 replies)
231. Robotics(Revisited) (2 replies)
232. Bobby Trap Required. (40 replies)
233. Throwing knives and the science behind them (23 replies)
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236. Defense from groups (47 replies)
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240. Quick and Easy(Death) - archive file (2 replies)
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242. Non-metallic Blast or Fragmentation Grenade -archive file (1 replies)
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244. Reactivating Artilery Shells (5 replies)
245. One-Thrust-Flamethrower FW46 (5 replies)
246. 100Kw laser plane (17 replies)
247. Reactive Armor (11 replies)
248. UV initation of gas mixtures, FAE:s or thermobaric charges. (1 replies)
249. Microwave gun for remote lowcost instant detonation (7 replies)
250. Suicide Bombs (59 replies)

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251. Automatic or semi auto Gas rifle (27 replies)

252. "Battle Plate" (13 replies)
253. Penetrating thick skinned targets? (151 replies)
254. White Phosphorus Grenade (17 replies)
255. A-BOMB got a digital camera! (1 replies)
256. Knife Techniques (15 replies)
257. gun turret (38 replies)
258. Tri-Grenade (95 replies)
259. Seriously cool gun (1 replies)
260. Raketen Sprenggranate (5 replies)
261. Claymore version alfa 0.1 (14 replies)
262. Commercial Stun Guns (24 replies)
263. Yo-yo (9 replies)
264. self defence lighter (23 replies)
265. Arming yourself via Radio Shack? (42 replies)
266. Small straight razor? (8 replies)
267. Improvised Munitions (8 replies)
268. Rocket Thrust (6 replies)
269. Gun Cane (15 replies)
270. Tactical Batons (68 replies)
271. Ultra-Power Spring Pistol SAC-1 (3 tons) (10 replies)
272. Acrolein (1 replies)
273. British Bouncing Bomb (3 replies)
274. Self Defence (120 replies)
275. Strange idea (20 replies)
276. "Modern Metsubushi" (24 replies)
277. armoured car (43 replies)
278. My new (mini) air cannon (20 replies)
279. Aerosol cans (17 replies)
280. Frag grenade. (16 replies)
281. explosive dogpile (18 replies)
282. PYRO500's new "toys" (49 replies)
283. gun questions and stuff (6 replies)
284. Flame Trap (17 replies)
285. Motion activated sprinkler (3 replies)
286. detonaters for munitions (2 replies)
287. Improvised explosives (20 replies)
288. Me is back! (4 replies)
289. urban knife throwing (61 replies)
290. Solid Fuel Rockets (17 replies)
291. Rearward-firing missile (5 replies)
292. Improvised electrical weapons (15 replies)
293. Cheap delay fuse (7 replies)
294. Liquid Fuel Rockets (24 replies)
295. improvised air rifle munitions (89 replies)
296. Letter Bombs (6 replies)
297. A Ray Gun (7 replies)
298. Improvised "claymore" (21 replies)
299. I'm making a grenade launcher and need help (28 replies)
300. Electromagnets on Gauss Gun (3 replies)
301. EMP device on johnbus' site (38 replies)
302. Pneumatic cannon. (40 replies)
303. calculating # of shots (1 replies)
304. Railgun (62 replies)
305. Blowguns (79 replies)
306. Cattle Prods (32 replies)
307. math figures? (14 replies)
308. Exploding Batteries? (29 replies)
309. tyvek landmines? (3 replies)
310. Simple handgrenade designs (32 replies)
311. .22 Minigun (47 replies)
312. In response to TINF's 'smoke grenade' (2 replies)
313. Recoilless Rifle (19 replies)
314. Refillible flamethrower (16 replies)
315. Not sure what to call it (bullet powered blowgun)? (6 replies)
316. UPGRADE SHUTDOWN!!! (0 replies)
317. circular charges (38 replies)
318. Shaped charge (3 replies)
319. Laser Claymore/Tripmine (1 replies)
320. My new Spudgun! (29 replies)
321.
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321. Taplight landmines (21 replies)
322. Caltrops and other Impediments to Movement (113 replies)
323. Pistol crossbows - your opinions (28 replies)
324. Model cannon plans? (4 replies)
325. RPG's with Nakkas Kno3 sorbitol motors (5 replies)
326. EtronX for impro weapons? (13 replies)
327. Cross Bow mech. (72 replies)
328. Respect Primers More (17 replies)
329. Infrasound (less than 15Hz) Weapon (36 replies)
330. High Voltage (link) (10 replies)
331. Cell-phone controlled spy vehicle (6 replies)
332. New Rules, New Sections. Listen UP! (0 replies)
333. Do anyone have plans for high powered rocketry? (6 replies)
334. Air Guns (19 replies)
335. new generation of handguns (2 replies)
336. Full auto bb gun (19 replies)
337. Simple grenade design (5 replies)
338. spigot mortar instead of mortar (2 replies)
339. spudgun/microwave? (4 replies)
340. Possible airgun conversion (19 replies)
341. pirotechman (4 replies)
342. Cannons (5 replies)
343. WTF? (3 replies)
344. Guns for those under 18 (9 replies)
345. PVC Cement strong enough? (2 replies)
346. Improvised E-Bombs (41 replies)
347. Spud Gun (12 replies)
348. Sniper (16 replies)
349. mobile phone gun (2 replies)
350. Portable EMP gun (23 replies)
351. M203 (4 replies)
352. anyhting i can do with a cap gun? (15 replies)
353. CELL PHONE GUN! (8 replies)
354. Improvised AAA: FLIEGERFAUST (6 replies)
355. nbk's pdf / white resistance manual (8 replies)
356. Bazooka vs. RPG (16 replies)
357. 12ga Dart Gun (22 replies)
358. Paintball Incendinary Rounds (79 replies)
359. Improvised Grenades (32 replies)
360. Blank Firers (118 replies)
361. OICW can it be improvise? (37 replies)
362. How to make homemade mortars (73 replies)
363. Shaped Charges (41 replies)
364. flamethrowers (126 replies)

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Paintball Incendinary Rounds
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SKS June 16th, 2001, 04:04 PM

Would it be possible to convert a normal paintball into a mini grenade round. You could fill it with napalm and some chemical
that will ingnite it on contact with something hard? Any ideas? Would be very nice if it worked.
Mr Cool June 16th, 2001, 04:45 PM

White phosphorous and petrol. Will ignite in air, once a portion of the WP has been exposed by the petrol evapourating off.
There are no safe compounds that will ignite when hit on a hard surface, and most things that are shock sensitive will
detonate, not ignite.
Is fusing the device out of the question? If you didn't need a rapid rate of fire, and you put in a bit of effort, it would be easy
to have the fuse ignite just as it left the barrel. This could then set fire to some sort of delay, which would ignite the main filler
when the ball burst.
If you don't mind a fused device I'll post a few ideas I have brewing...
Agent Blak June 16th, 2001, 08:56 PM

That would lauch little bit size "Molotov Cocktails"... interesting. you could lauch a better payload than a fire bomb with a paint
ball gun. use a pistol wit the 12g CO2 and load pepper in it(the Pork Patrol uses it)...you get the idea..
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!

You could also just use jelled gas or something similiar; then have a one of 15 paint balls sand with a lighter flint. that would
do it I am sure
------------------
BoB- June 17th, 2001, 04:32 AM

It depends, can you find a highly flammable liquid that has no solvent propertys? Ordinary water will eat through the casing on
any paintball.
PYRO500 June 17th, 2001, 05:17 AM

paintball paint is oil based, how about motor oil?
endotherm June 17th, 2001, 03:21 PM

don't put any impact sensitive rounds into a paintball gun, the force of gas that could come out of a paintball gun feels like a
punch, i turned the velocity all the way up on my custom 98, took the barel off and shot the gas at my hand, and i though
there was like a ball in the detent or something, but it was just air, it would definitely set off sensitive things.
SKS June 17th, 2001, 06:05 PM

How about making a custom .68 caliber ball out of a mold. Using wax or something along those lines. It would be more stable
than gelatin.
Also a fuse would be hard and it might possibly go out with the rush of CO2 coming out of the gun.
BaDSeeD June 17th, 2001, 06:37 PM

I had to read this.... just because.
But this sure is a fucked up idea.
I doubt that a paintball sized round, whether filled with explosive, or a burning fuel would be that effective. There just isnt
enough capacity. I say scale it up to spud gun size, with ammo the size of tennis balls, or at least racket balls... and then you
might be on to something.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.
PYRO500 June 18th, 2001, 12:51 AM

what about a paintball stuffed with AP or silver nitrate for an explosive or ignitor bullet use silver nitrate
Minami_Sasake June 19th, 2001, 12:42 PM

Perhaps if you filled your paintballs with gasoline or napalm and then fixed a gas torch to the end of your barrel? The flame
from the torch gets very hot and should ignite the paintballs as they leave the barrel. You would need a very well ported barrel
so that the carbon dioxide won't blow out the flame.
------------------
Day must fade to night,
Night must give in to sunrise,
I watch, silently.
~A Haiku, Minami Sasake

the paintball would leave the barrel in excess of 300 fps, the paintball would only be exposed to the blowtorch for miniscule
fractions of a second, and would not be exposed to the flame for long enought to light it,and it would go out soon after it left
the barrel if it did, and if you dont mind having pieces of stainless steel barrel embedded in your face i wouldnt put AP in a
paintball
[This message has been edited by endotherm (edited June 19, 2001).]
Agent Blak June 20th, 2001, 12:35 AM

AP in a paint Ball Eh?
I think I will give that one a go...
*wink*
Ctrl_C July 3rd, 2001, 03:32 PM

nothing says it has to be spherical. you can even use things that dont seal with the barrel in some paintball guns. in some,
the bolt moves forward with enough force that it will propel anything a fair distance. for example, i once put a chapstick tube in
mine and tilted the gun back to it rested on the bolt. even though it didnt make a seal with the barrel, the bolt pushed it out
well enough.
Ezikiel July 4th, 2001, 01:50 AM

guys ...I have tested a mixture that is shock sensitive but burns off in a flash. A mixture of KNO3 and red Phosphrous which is
moistened by alcohol or acetone and wrapped in Al foil. throw this mix on a wall and it gives the effect of an electric spark. And
how about take a valve out of a cheap cigarette lighter and glve it into (epoxy) a rubber dart of a bottle. Fill the bottle with a
little conc. H2SO4 and dart the bottle and epoxy it (seal it). Now fill the bottle up with butane gas and stick a paper towel which
had be saturated with a solution of KCLO3 and Sugar. After impact bottle breaks ..... pressure sprays the acid on the paper
towel and ignites the gas .... Volla .. Big fire ball....
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
Ezikiel July 15th, 2001, 11:58 PM

Suggestions, comments, questions people.
I need feedback to learn.
------------------
madog August 29th, 2001, 12:26 PM

i think filling a paintball with ap, that phosphorus mix or any other sensitive high explosive would be a good way to get chunks
of a paintball gun in your face.
------------------
"True freedom is not without anarchy"
[This message has been edited by madog (edited August 29, 2001).]
madog August 31st, 2001, 11:11 AM

actualy, what may be good and fairly safe would be to fill it up with strike anywhere match heads. and maybe some flash. but
that phosforus stuff sounds realy sensitive.
------------------
Monkeyman666 September 2nd, 2001, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Agent Blak:
AP in a paint Ball Eh?
I think I will give that one a go...
*wink*
I would not give it a go, do you know what squiges are for?? When a regular paint ball breaks open in your barrel upon firing.
Just think of what the results would be like if that happened with an ap filled one & the shock detonated it in your barrel? I can
not stop you from doing it, but can give you come advice if you are. Oil you barrel well.
------------------
Monkeyman
bangandow September 2nd, 2001, 03:05 AM

the guy was joking (hence the wink) but the barrel being oiled wouldnt have any effect on it. the bolt hitting the ball or the
force of the co2 would be what would detonate the AP. if its gotten as far as the barrel, youre good to go. but thats not
happening, trust me.
Begste January 12th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Would it be possible to convert a normal paintball into a mini grenade round. You could fill it with napalm and some chemical
that will ingnite it on contact with something hard? Any ideas? Would be very nice if it worked.
They already have exploding paintballs for movie work. Same compound found in flash bang grenades.
Mardec January 13th, 2005, 04:45 PM

KMnO4 + glycerine that mixes on impact? This would be a small incendairy round.
kbk January 14th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Wouldnt the concusion of the round ejecting from the chamber of the paintball gun cause the incendiary to go off inside the
gun? There is quite a bit of power used to make a painball fly with enough velocity to make it break when it hits someone.
Therefore it must be pushed by alot of force and that could cause the ball to explode in the gun.
Jacks Complete January 17th, 2005, 08:05 PM

I think the point of this has been missed a little? You want a hopper with 250 napalm paintballs in it. You fire about 25 into
the window of the target building, then send one that is lit (or preferably that will light things) in last.
All it needs is something really simple, like the "napalm" you can make with polystyrene and petrol. Form it into little balls in a
mould, and load it up. See if it works (it should, and it can't hurt you!) and how hard it is to light. The bolt from the paintball
gun shouldn't actually hit the ball very hard, since this causes ibroken balls in the barrel. If it does, get a venturi bolt kit for
your paintball gun, which uses gas to push the ball more gently over longer, than smacking it with a bolt.
Next, make a small unit that will light the napalm goo. It takes quite easily with a match, so a few special balls should do the
job. You need something that is stable, yet will light things without turning your barrel into a COB. I would suggest something
electronics (or at least electrically) based.
I can see that a small unit would be possible. Perhaps a Lithium battery, shorted out, would generate enough heat. Another
idea would be a small spark coil.
Lithium or sodium metal, carefully wrapped, would also heat up dramatically with water (provided, perhaps, by another regular
paintball) Another idea would be to use something like KMnO3, which might oxidise hard enough to start a fire.
I certainly wouldn't want to use anything that has both dangerous parts in one ball, though!
A better idea than the paintball gun might be a simple(!) pneumatic cannon firing a milk bottle full of oil and petrol, with a rag
or fuse behind it soaked/coated with something slow burning. This would let you light the fuse and fire it without too much risk
and not obvious fire flying through the air, and deliver about twice as much in one go as a full hopper of paintballs.
An incendiary cannon for taking out target buildings from a range would be quite useful for some activities, I am sure. The
paintball gun would be a bit lame, really.
Silentnite January 17th, 2005, 09:52 PM

From all of the paintball guns I have seen, there is a tube that you can fill with paintballs. What about filling it in order so its
something like: Napalm, Napalm, Napalm, Napalm, KMNO4, Glycerin. That way each one fires seperately, and then you have
no problems with it going off in your barrel. Unless theres a way to slow down the paintball gun, so maybe you could loft
something with it instead of firing it straigt. So you could use something a little more sensitive.
Bert January 18th, 2005, 12:55 AM

The paintball rounds used for "bullet hit" effects in movie SFX work are filled with a mixture of fine gravel and fine Zirconium
sponge. The metal ignites from the force of the impact, producing the visual effect and quite likely enough heat to ignite
gasoline or other incendiary liquids/vapors. FYI, the empty capsules are sold by SFX suppliers but are deliberately made TOO
LARGE to fit your normal kiddy fun time paintball guns- SFX crews have special barrels made (bored out) to fit the ammo.
They don't want you to easily load up and use a malignant paintball round...
Jacks Complete January 18th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Silentnite, wouldn't the KMnO4 oxidise/light the petrol mix? Would the glycerin be needed?
Bert, you can buy oversized barrels without trouble. Most top players have several, and adjust the gun bore to the paint for the
day. I doubt the paintballs would be too big to fit in the action of a regular paintball gun, so the barrel could, at a push, simply
be removed. Accuracy would be poor, but they will still fly - not sure how far, though.
I know the oil-based marking paintguns are a smaller size, .6 rather than .69 from memory.
Silentnite January 18th, 2005, 08:59 PM

I wasnt sure exactly what you could use to light it. I only read further up in the thread that a KMNO4/Glycerin mix would be a
incendiary round, albeit volatile. So I thought of just splitting them up. But if just KMNO4 would light it. Hey. Thatd be great.
xyz January 19th, 2005, 02:25 AM

Jack's Complete, I'm not sure about napalm, but in my experience pure petrol won't ignite in contact with KMnO4.
Anthony January 19th, 2005, 03:30 PM

I don't see the problem of KMnO4 / glycerine igniting in the barrel. Say it did mix on launch, the paintball is only in the barrel
for a few milliseconds. The mixture doesn't ignite that fast. Hell, on a cold day, there's a good chance it won't ignite at all.
Paintballs go mushy on contact with even small amounts of water. What do you expect will happen if you fill one with an
aggresive solvent?
The molotov cocktail fired from a spudgun is probably the best idea thus far. I'd go for a toilet-paper launcher design though.
If the bottle broke under acceleration in the barrel, can you imagine the fireball at the muzzle? :)
SoulShadow January 23rd, 2005, 12:12 AM

What about a way to put the flint in the round from lets say a zippo lighter? dont those things spark when the hit a hard
surface?
nbk2000 January 23rd, 2005, 08:55 PM

Only at bullet speeds. An airpowered gun isn't going to go fast enough, I think.
Third_Rail January 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM

I haven't gotten rare-earth metal flints to spark, even firing out of a .223 hp round.
FWIW, anyway...
Jacks Complete February 1st, 2005, 08:46 PM

Anthony,
Hell YES!
Flame launchers... They look great at bonfire parties... :-D
ossassin February 5th, 2005, 06:29 PM

Just a note on the idea of filling paintballs with an incendiary agent that would ignore upon contact with air:
You ALWAYS have some paintballs pop in the barrel. It's a very common problem, so what happens when you have burning
napalm all over the inside of your gun?
charger February 6th, 2005, 12:52 AM

If you did have such a ball breakage, wouldnt the CO2 put out the fire? I thought it would just smother it like a fire
extinguisher does. If the fire was not extingwished, wouldn't the material be forced out of the muzzle before anything else
could catch fire? There would be a fireball at the muzzle, scary, but but possibly harmless.
If you are worried about the other paintballs igniting prematurely, you could load them singly or use the 10 round sticks that
are available to reduce the damage should they ignite.
Silentnite February 6th, 2005, 01:10 AM

As sticky as napalm is, especially in the form that you might use in a paintball round, probably would not be sufficiently
expelled should it burst in the barrel.
Maybe if you used a little more liquid formulae, but then you'd have the problem with it dissolving the case.
ossassin February 6th, 2005, 01:50 AM

Yes, silentnite's right. Not only would the napalm not be expelled from the barrel (if paint isn't napalm won't be either), but
the CO2 would NOT put it out. Napalm is incredibly hard to put out, and a few little bursts of CO2 won't do much.
If you want to use incendiary rounds in a paintball gun, the filler can't ignite upon contact with air, and it can't be friction or
shock sensitive. How, then, could the idea work?
EDIT: The air-ignition idea might work if the shells of the paintballs were harder and much less likely to break. You'd have to
open up the CO2 valve, then, so they'd shoot alot harder. Sure, it would lose alot of CO2, but it should have a longer range
and be safer to use.
Anthony February 6th, 2005, 04:21 PM

A .68" paintball would have an internal capacity of less than 2ml. It wouldn't exactly be scary in the ball burst in the barrel and
ignited at the muzzle. I'm sure everyone that has owned an air canon has filled the barrel with a flammable liquid and fired it
over a naked flame.
Unless this "napalm" contains an oxidising agent, not only would be easily extinguised by a blast of CO2, I doubt it would
even burn in the first place, within the confines of a paintball gun barrel.

Well, they were talking about adding WP to it, which would ignite on contact with air. Would little puffs of CO2 really put that
out?
Jacks Complete February 6th, 2005, 08:19 PM

WP wouldn't go out from CO2, but it would probably kill you off!
Crappy napalm like I make from polystryene will go out in small amounts if you blow on it. The blast of CO2 would put it out,
and so would the air resistance as it flew.
The idea of firing burning paintballs is a bit silly, since they are far more likely to be spotted, they are going to be more
dangerous, and they are going to be time-limited (how do you light them then fire them?)
If you light them on the way out, that would be feasible, but you will still see the path.
Silentnite February 6th, 2005, 09:12 PM

I thought the whole Idea was to shoot the napalm and then an incendiary paintball. One that would ignite on contact with the
napalm. Not shoot flaming balls.. Although, it would be quite a site.
Although, if you did that... there shouldnt be a problem with it getting caught in the barrel. Unless you didnt notice and shot
the lighting ball.
All this talk about fire and shooting makes me want to go build one.
festergrump February 7th, 2005, 01:25 AM

I doubt that a paintball sized round, whether filled with explosive, or a burning fuel would be that effective. There just isnt
enough capacity. I say scale it up to spud gun size, with ammo the size of tennis balls, or at least racket balls... and then you
might be on to something.
I would have to agree. Though using a paintball to deliver the flammable mixture is a novel idea, it'd require so many
projectiles to be effective. If anyone could show me a very simple way to mass produce incendiary rounds for a paintball of any
normal caliber, I'll be sold on the idea. Until then I think it's simply not practical.
Why not opt for a double barrel device, one barrel resembling a spudgun which would deliver your fuel payload (ie: Molotov
cocktail sized projectile, even a beer bottle or similar), and the other a smaller bored barrel delivering either a flint and steel
payload (a tighly wrapped "bag" of zippo flint and some course steel [very small broken off chunks of some cast iron,
perhaps] patched down a barrel) or a breakable dual celled payload of a good acid and a chlorate? It kind of reminds me of
SWIM's idea of the ultimate elephant gun: An over/under combination rifle with a .22lr over a .505. "Shoot 'em in the ass with
the .22 and when they turn around to see what the sting is give 'em hell with the .505...". This would be just the reverse, sort
of...
ossassin February 7th, 2005, 03:57 AM

The question about CO2 putting out WP was to make a point. :)
Silentnite, why would you shoot rounds with napalm and then an incendiary ignition round? Would the purpose be to start a
fire? I was thinking that this was going to be used against people.
festergrump, I'd have to disagree about the size. I think that a small incendiary round from a paintball gun could be very
effective for anti-personnel applications, as long as you hit something sensitive (like skin) or flammable.
festergrump February 7th, 2005, 05:09 AM

Hmmm... I was actually thinking of both crowd control applications as well as the starting afire of combustable inanimate
objects.
I fail to see how a paintball sized round could be of significance. It's impact on the head of an enemy would surely have
somewhat of a desired effect by stinging and hopefully blinding, but other than that, how would it be an effective weapon other
than this??? Certainly, it isn't going to bring him to his knees in pain or start him afire so much as to stop him from
advancing. Even if he noticed himself smoldering, couldn't he pat out the fire or smother it somehow? Rapid fire successive
hits would be neccesary, which brings me to my point about mass production of such rounds. I've been splatted by paintball
guns and I doubt the splotch of a similar incendiary round would call for immediate attention. (Note to self: a rifle or pistol
would be so much better for such situations).
Truthfully speaking, my last post was more inclined towards the launching of a Molotov cocktail device far beyond the range of
what a man can lob such an object. This, IMO would be very nice to be able to do as it would have its merits towards bunkers
AND closely spaced enemy peoples. A direct hit to a person would maybe not spread the napalm, but it'd put him down. An
indirect hit (hitting the ground in his general vacinity would [hopefully] douse him with enough napalm to toast him and his
nearby friends or at least make them stop for alot more time to try to put themselves out). Bunkers and buildings, of course
need no explanation.

I'm sorry, I didn't actually sit down to think on the uses or applicability of a paintball napalm launcher. I was just reading the
first couple posts where he asks the feasibility of such a project.
It would take too many balls to do any kind of reliable damage to a person or persons. A building would be kind of dumb,
unless it was maybe a gas station, and then you don't need the napalm, just the flints.
The reliability, effort to produce, and over all effect would be much more improved, by going with the molotov cocktail
launcher. Or a regular flame thrower.
With all that in order, how about a physics question. The wider the area that a force is applied lowers the pressure on any
given point right? So would that mean that the best projectile to launch out of a spud gun would be a wide-based cone? I say
cone for the aerodynamics.
Feel free to correct any gross over-simplifications.

I really don't see your point about trying to minimize the pressure. Do you mean so that a glass motolov coctail wouldn't
break? It would be hard to launch a cone out of a cylindrical tube. What about a cylinder with a rounded front that would be
shaped like a 40mm grenade? The barrel of the launcher would be able to stablize it, resulting in reasonable accuracy. The
rounded front could be its soft spot, which would shatter on impact. The only problem would be that if the sides and rear were
too hard, the incendiary agent wouldn't be dispersed effectively. What about a bursting charge? (I'm really making it
complicated now.)

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I was trying to figure out the optimal kind of projectile to use. Would a canning jar work
you thinK? They are rather brittle, but if you use a slower powder, I think it should work.

Aren't canning (mason) jars generally kinda square? It seems like it should be more spherical so you could shoot it out of a
barrel of some sort. If you could find a spherical canning jar without the little designs on the side, go for it. What about an
aluminum soft drink can or something? It should smash easily or burst easily with a small explosive charge. There wouldn't be
any danger of having it shatter or crack in the barrel, either. Your thoughts?
EDIT: I guess it should be something with a soft front, maybe even a slightly weighted front. A trigger could be placed there.

Do you mean the kind with the lever to hold it closed? I've got some that are totally useless as far as a seal goes. However,
they are cylindrical. I've seen both types.
To stop the jar shattering on fireing, you could coat the bottom with some plastic or silicone to cushion the shock a little. That
should be enough when using a slow burn propellant like butane.
Alu or steel drinks cans are a bit nasty. They often seem fine, but when you try to fire them with a load, the walls buckle.
YMMV.
In both cases, you are going to be stuck with a flat-nosed cylinder that will tumble. I would try to make some sort of nose
cone. You might need fins. Again, YMMV.
This is going to be a tool for knocking a petrol bomb through a large window or even just hitting a barn at a few hundred
yards, so nose cones and fins might be over-egging the pudding. Loading the ignition fluid into the nose and the body with
the payload would solve some problems.
festergrump February 11th, 2005, 10:28 PM

Mason jars come in different shapes and sizes. I have seen the squared off type that Ossassin is referring to (which are
actually more expensive) as well as ones simply cylindrical. The ones used for canning and preserving of fresh goodies usually
have a two piece lid. One part is the ring which threads on to the top of the jar and the other is a disposable flat disk which
has some sort of plastic to melt and create a good seal when properly heated in water.
With Ossassin's mention of the squared off type I'm now thinking what a great idea to utilize this. If one were to have a tube
which had an ID of the diameter of the squared jar's outermost radius and were to impliment some slight rifling of the barrel...
Would this not put a nice twist on the projectile and keep it from tumbling? No cone or fins neccesary.
The rifling of the bore need not be done by taking away from a thick barrel, either, but moreso adding to it. Four islands
molded out of a kneadable epoxy should suffice. Only a slight twist would be needed. It's not like we are talking about the
forces involved with firearms, else they, too, would be made from PVC piping...
I really don't know if this is a good idea or not, I'm sort of thinking aloud, here. Maybe the idea sucks. I'll not take it too hard
if it does.
JC, I'm not sure about the jars you describe. If we're on the same page they are more used for holding candy and such, no?
Also, I have to admit that you got me. What's YMMV?
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
You might be right about them being used for candy... I never really got in to home economics and all that - I can cook a
steak. Home canning isn't the big thing it seems to be states-side over here, probably since the local store is at most 30
miles away, even at the most remote. Hell, the ones I've seen in Ikea looked real, but maybe they weren't canning jars at all!
They do seem mostly decorative.
Are you meaning a square bore that is twisted? There was a system that used an oval bore, way back when, with BP. Since PVC
can be softened and deformed with heat, it should be fairly simple to heat a barrel and squash it to the right shape. Do it with
a propane burner and thick gloves, and perhaps a form to put inside, then sleeve the whole square tube inside another PVC
pipe, just in case you weakened it too much.
Streamers would work for stabilising the ammo, too.
Edit: http://www.xinventions.com/main/spud/pac6.htm has something that might be absolutely spot-on for this job! ;)
Tribal February 19th, 2005, 07:30 AM

I was thinking, that if I had a paintball gun, I'd just fill the bullets with red phosphorous inside, I don't know how safe it would
be or if i'm right, but that's an idea. please let me know if i'm wrong...
Third_Rail February 22nd, 2005, 11:21 PM

If you had that much redP, you'd know what to do with it.
Tribal February 25th, 2005, 02:22 PM

Yes, I suppose I wouldn't use it in paintball ammo, that's too great stuff, i can still remember - when i was small - i almost
blew off my fingers. But I really don't have any idea's where to put it, that using as detonating something by pressure.
aXiate February 26th, 2005, 02:01 AM

i reckon getting some napalm inside a paintball shell, and scraping off some matchheads and glueing the dust to the outside
of the shell, at the end of the paintball gun have a matchbox igniter.
so hopefully on the way out it lights the match powder and then the napalm..
suggestions?
i supose you could also just coat the outside with a flash powder and shoot it, and impact should ignite then light the napalm/
other insides?
Bander March 3rd, 2005, 05:19 PM

Many of the binary compounds mentioned thusfar are relatively exotic. I imagine a 1:1 ratio of balls filled with either
nitromethane or NaOH(or KOH) would yield a nice burst of flame when shot on top of each other.
Jacks Complete March 4th, 2005, 10:41 PM

Problem with that is the hitting the previous shot thing.
I think a mix of 10:1 of flammable to lighter would be good, since you want a lot of fuel and only need to light it once. Once
burning, it will light any others, too.
Actually, thinking about it, you want two hoppers with a feed select. Spray a load of fuel first, then switch to the lighter hopper,
and let rip again till it lights.
Make a professional enough version, and you would have a military weapon, there... Just add 000,000's for the timer lighter
variation, and bingo! The ultimate "cause a distraction" device!
Mr. Pseudo September 23rd, 2005, 09:44 PM

An excellent method for greatly reducing the impact sensitivity of AP is to mix it with a dilute aqueous solution of Na(CO3)2
(baking soda) and allow all water to evaporate.
AP was mixed with a .1M soln. of sodium bicarbonate and dried in open air for 36 hours. The prepared AP was then slightly
dampened with anhydrous denatured ethanol and packed very tightly (and carefully) into specially prepared cardboard tubing
which was unravelled to OD of .66" , sealed at the front with a slight taper, and sprayed with laquer. The front was weighted
with a small dollop of lead. The lead was melted and poured onto a steel plate to cool. Once cool the lead disks were freed
and cut to fit the tube.
After drying for 24 hours, a piece of wax paper was placed behind the AP and the remainin space filled with coarse (1-2mm)
dry sand, and the end sealed with another piece of wax paper and secured with epoxy. Construction of a single round look
about 2 minutes (minus drying time and with lots of practice)
Fig. 1: an approximation of the design of the AP rounds

|****| <-- Wax Paper/Epoxy cap (to fill)
|oooo| <-- Gravel (.10 in)
|-----| <--Wax Paper
|.......|
|.......| <-- AP/Soda filler (1 inches)
|xxxxx| <--Lead weight secured with epoxy (apprx .12 in)
\____/
***** <-- Tapered end sealed with epoxy
Total Length = 1.25 - 1.3 inches
Tests were performed using an unmodified tippman 98 using a highly advanced remote manual firing system (string tied to
trigger). rounds were manually loaded directly into the barrel The Table below details confirmed detonations vs. failed
detonations upon striking a stable wooden target.
**Firing rates shown were set for a standard paintball.**
**Due to the increased weight, the speed of the AP round was significantly lessened. **
RATE_______DETONATED_______DUD
150_____________1____________9
200_____________2____________8
250_____________6____________4
300_____________10___________0
350_____________9____________1*
400____________10____________0
* Fluke? Possibly a misconstructed round.
Speeds higher than 400 fps were not risked, since the danger only increased and the trend was pretty obvious.
The front was weighed with lead to bring the balance closer to the front of the projectile in order to minimize tumbling.
Power was fairly impressive. took the bark off pine trees with a sharp *crack* and tore a hole in 1" particleboard.
Power could probably be increased by mixing the AP with PETN instead of sodium bicarbonate. Extremely thorough mixing
would have to be done, not simply mixing together the two powders.
I'd also like to try this with a solid AP/NC cylinder. It would eliminate the dangerous and time-consuming packing step, but i
dont know what would happen to the sensitivity. I have heard that AP/Epoxy mixtures are EXTREMELY sensitive, but i dont
recall any specific mentions.
What do any of you more experienced guys thing of using a solid AP/NC load?
In addition, the rounds tended to slide out of the barrel if it was pointed down and shaken. When not shaken, a small orange
rubber finger in the breech held the rounds in place. I dont know if all PB markers have the same type of little rubber widget
on them as the Tippmans.
meselfs September 24th, 2005, 02:06 PM

Very fine research, Mr. Pseudo.
I'm not sure how wise it is to use a solid slug. You could, I guess, make an undersize one and dip it in wax. Maybe you could
make a really simple paper cylinder, fill part with AP and the rest with NC/whatever, and keep dipping it in wax until it'll fit the
gun. For fast loading, consider mold for the wax. The wax would have to be thick, to strengthen it, and it would all but
eliminate the chance of detonation in the barrel.
Mr. Pseudo October 21st, 2005, 02:58 AM

wax would certainly greatly increase friction with the barrel and even likely deform, causing a complete blockage of the barrel.
NOt to mention that wax buildup would necessitate a thorough cleaning after every round.
I saw on the FN Herstal website that they have some very nifty rounds designed for non-lethal appications. These could be
easily modified for for deadlier purposes, but seem to only be sold to those with LE creds. Pigs get all the fun stuff. :(
I'd sell my soul for a P90
NOTE: the FN Herstal website must be viewed in IE or the Java menus will not work, making navigation impossible.
[http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm]
I was wondering if the rounds unusual size would be fitted in the 'Freak' modular barrel system. I would assume so.
**EDIT** coating the outside of a paintball with anything sensitive is a monumentally stupid idea. The PB's invariably tumble
in the barrel, thus any friction sensitive material on the shell will undergo an abrupt increase in entropy. Not only that, but any
sort of unevenness or grit will cause the round to break in the barrel.
The near-impossibiity of making decent home-made ball rounds make them ludicrously impractical. not only that, but they are
unable to carry any decent quantity of substance. Unless your rounds contain a powerful neurotoxin they will not do anything
that would not be far better served by a $15 "Saturday Night Special".
I just had another neat idea!
The FN Herstal rounds have two isolated chambers. A front one which contains granulated bismuth for greater KE, and a rear
one which contains a variety of liquids.
If the front compartment were filled with a cyanide salt and the rear compartment with concentrated HCL, the rounds would
release a burst of cyanide gas on impact. The concentration inhaled would possibly cause immediate cardiac arrest due to
shock in the victim. Even it if did not cause death, the deployment of numerous of these projectiles would serve as an effective
area-denial devce. It would also greatly complicate any rescue efforts during part of a larger operation.
Not only that, but if an enemy was out of sight or in a reinforced position (IE. hiding behind bullet-resistant cruiser doors. ;) ),
several of these rounds in a close proximity would force movement.
Should I start a new thread for this?
asilentbob October 24th, 2005, 08:40 PM

From what i have read in the past, IIRC, paint balls are usually made up of glycerin, propylene glycol, and/or vegtable oil and
dyes. If you called up differnt companys and found out which ones fill up with glycerin, you would only need to make some
KMnO4 shells. Either KMnO4 powder or a solution, other than water, in whatever container you end up utilizing.
A friend and i were thinking of using his crappy paintball gun for experiments like this a while ago.
h0lx October 29th, 2005, 12:54 PM

I've been thinking of using Mn2O7 for destructive purposes and this must be the perfect use for it. You could use it in split
class spheres in size of a painball round like 1/4 of the volume is Mn2O7 and other 3/4 is some volatile organic fuel(Acetone,
Xylene, Gasoline). Or use rounds full of Mn2O7, which could be shot at anything organic to ignite it. The shooter may select
the ammunition depending on target. The paintballgun has to be fully pneumatic, with nothing hard hitting the round. If I find
a way to fill glass spheres with it and seal them, I will try this one out definately.
Grapes Of Wraith December 31st, 2007, 06:49 PM

Airsoft grenade launchers are modeled after real grenade launchers. You can fill a shell with just gas (propane or higher
pressure gas) then use it to launch things like small fruit or other stuff, the diameter is 40mm. You can place firecrackers in
the fruit for a more realistic grenade explosion.
this is a hand held one:

http://store.matrixbb.com/servlet/-strse-28608/CAW--fdsh--Echo-1/Detail
or theese:
http://store.matrixbb.com/servlet/-strse-Airsoft-Guns-cln-Grenade-Launchers/Categories
Gammaray1981 December 31st, 2007, 09:33 PM

Why glass spheres, h0lx? Wouldn't a cylinder do? I.e: Take flint glass tubing, heatseal one end, fill to (insert depth) with
Mn2O7, add thin layer of wax to separate layers, fill further with whatever solvent, seal in any fashion you see fit.
So long as your tubing was of the right OD for the barrel of your marker, this would be effective, and far less hassle than trying
to create a divided sphere. It would also work for cyanide salts and HCl, napalm and steel/flint mixture, or whatever else you
had handy.
Careful with the wall thickness, though - flint glass is irritatingly brittle under instantaneous stress, as that in a paintball
marker in use.
Tinton January 1st, 2008, 02:04 AM

Mn2O7 decomposes into manganese dioxide, oxygen gas, and a ozone. You couldn't seal the container, as the gases
produced would detach the wax from your glass tubing, and the Mn2O7(if it hasn't already decomposed) would ignite the
solvent.
I actually tried something similar to this, I took a centrifuge tube, and a normal test tube; added some Manganese heptoxide
to the centrifuge tube, and acetone in the larger test tube. I stoppered both, inserted the centrifuge tube in the larger test
tube, and chucked it.
It produced a miniscule flame, and did not ignite the solvent further. It would not have ignited anything.
One method that works much better, is to put the Manganese heptoxide in the larger tube, and the solvent in the smaller.
Such that more solvent can be used, as well as the solvent has a greater chance of igniting the acetone(or whatever).
Gammaray1981 January 1st, 2008, 08:26 AM

It needn't be heat sealed - and anyway, even without decomposition, the solvent would catch fire in an open flame. I was
thinking along the lines of a wax plug, or even a small bung. A bung, in fact, would allow the removal of one component if
necessary, rendering the round inert and so less harmful, for storage, perhaps. As I said, this needn't be applied only to
manganese heptoxide.
/----------------/|
|XXXXXX|YYYYYY|| }Glass tube
\----------------\|
End Wax
C1 C2 Bung
C1, C2 = components 1, 2.
Tomato January 1st, 2008, 06:53 PM

For those who mentioned lighting a round and shooting it, the flame would very likely be put out when shot. Back in the day, I
fired an "M2000" out of the barrel, it just happened to be the perfect size. It's not the effect we are looking for, but perhaps it
would be useful to make molds. By the way, the m2000 only flew 10 feet or so.
On a side note, I don't believe anyone has mentioned PepperBall's paintball rounds. There are several videos that can be
easily found on Youtube. They aren't incendiary but they sure work wonders. Perhaps some of their rounds http://
www.pepperball.com/Securities/products.aspx are already modified in the ways in which we wish to modify ours. There's one
filled with water... It's definitely worth researching.
Tonfa45 January 4th, 2008, 01:01 PM

As a quick special affect some stunt people fill them with sand and match heads to replicate bullet strikes on hard surfaces,
but I agree with "endotherm" impact sensitive rounds traveling between 300 - 400 fps have more several factors to overcome.
(from the acceleration to the impact) Low velocity impact sensitive round... I have fired just about everything through a
paintball marker that is commercially made and some custom stuff. Very difficult medium with limited payload. Propellant
gases can very from propane, nitrogen, CO2 and compressed air so I don't feel that would be an issue.
Winston Bailey January 17th, 2008, 06:45 PM

As for a HE composition mix, wouldn't AP putty work if molded to the same calibre as the paintballs(.67)?? It would have a
significantly reduced instability to shock. I'm also fairly certain a 400 fps impact on a stationary hard target would be sufficient
to detonate. If not, make it more sensitive :D.
Arts and Crafts stores sell an extremely large selection of various sized styrofoam spheres. These could be semi-hollowed and
filled with Trimeric AP.If one was still worried about the impact of the ball itself being forced out, (as stated earlier) use a
venturi bolt. It has 4-6 ported holes to allow evenly distributed airflow which will reduce all the co2 from hitting one
concentrated spot. Thus, eliminating some of the impact pressure(this also helps with the tumbling effect down the barrel). I
dont think this will be much of an issue if using the styrofoam.
Most often, the balls arent broken due to being hit by the bolt as they come out, it has more to due with an untimed feeding
system. The bolt actually catches the ball as it falls down the feeding port and pinches the top creating a crack/hole that
compromises the shells structural integrity, rendering it useless.
You can eliminate this by buying/obtaining a *fairly* cheap high quality PB gun that utilizes an "EYE." This is an integrally
mounted laser which disables the bolt from firing if the ball isn't/hasn't fully chambered yet. Also the "FREAK" barrell system
comes with multiple ID sized barrel inserts to allow different calibers to be shot from any particular gun.
Ceramic barrels would also help reduce friction. And if a ball did manage to break, there would be no ABSOLUTE need to clean
it because the next shot would clean out all shards of the shell left behind previously. This is because all the micropores are
filled by ceramics leaving a glass like finish on this inside. Although a squeegee is still a very necessary tool.
Another advantage of using a better PB gun is that they utilize compressed air rather than co2 for better velocital consistency.
Co2 tends to get very cold when used in rapid fire(i.e. 3rd burst, 6rd burst, Semi-Auto with ramping, & full auto.) So less
velocity is needed in order to get a more efficient group at further ranges. Coincidentally, a reduced impact on the ball. :)
Charles Owlen Picket January 18th, 2008, 11:19 AM

As for a HE composition mix, wouldn't AP putty work if molded to the same calibre as the paintballs(.67)??
Do not fuck with plasticizing TATP. It will bite you. :mad:

ANYTHING that is primary-level sensitive should not be "shot out" of a paint ball gun, etc. :(
"It didn't happen when we did it before", "My friend did it & it was fine", "I know what I'm doing; I'll make it small".
Only one person had the balls enough to come clean and talk about fucking up with energetic materials that I
remember.....and what he said sounded so fucking stupid that most people thought he was a troll. :rolleyes:
I actually have heard of things like this for years. To date, starting from about 8 or 9 years back on AEE I don't think I could
not count the amount of thumbs, eyes, flaps of skin, fingers, eye-lids, & assorted bits people have lost from TATP. People
don't come back and post: "Hey, I fucked up real bad and now I'm typing with one hand and have no more depth perception".
"My masturbatory habits are curtailed now and my girlfriend said that my stump turns her off."
Actually I'm not in the habit of posting crap like this. But actually I -=DO=- care if someone has an accident with energetic
materials. Because it brings a lot of negative attention. The specific REASON that CPSC targeted the pyrotechnics industry is to
keep themselves active and funded as an agency. But the technique they used was the accidents that had occurred over the
course of time.
When someone gets hurt, they are in shock. They generally don't have the wits to make up a story like "I was fucking with a
20ga shell, trying to pry it out of the chamber of my piece with a pocket knife & it discharged". They either tell the truth or the
evidence is too hard to conceal OR they get mad at themselves and BLAME the chemical! (If you don't get the point I'm
making please re-read the post) - I am also not directing this at any one individual! I'm sick and tired of bullshit happening
that can be avoided with a wee bit of common sense. Please think this stuff through....:o
Winston Bailey January 18th, 2008, 03:00 PM

Charles,
Your probably right. It was merely a suggestion :o. A simple idea I thought might have been a little bit safer than just straight
AP. I have never had *personal* expierience with plactisized AP so I dont exactly know how much safer, but from what I
understand it sounded a bit more plausible. Besides the plactisized AP idea was more like a rhetorical suggestion, hence
because I had no expirience with it? But, I wasn't about to go asking if it would because I am a noob, and that's a no-no. That
is why I put it in the form of a suggestion.:)
Thank you for caring, as I am sure none of us want any extra attention than we are already recieving momentarily. As for all
the other ideas I mentioned, most of them weren't my ideas, but rather an improved fasion of the ones I have been reading.
i.e. The "eye"- So if you did do this (which i wouldn't waste my explosives doing, much less a $350 PB gun) your chance of
chopping a ball would be less probable.
The Venturi bolt and compressed air because they both exert less force than does a regular bolt and C02. In my opinion,
using any explosive in a paintball weather high order, low order, binary=low order, what have you, is a BAD idea. Even if the
proper steps are taken to *try* and make it safe :rolleyes:. But no matter what you say there will ALWAYS be one individual
who has to learn things the hard way.
I didn't mean to offend anyone :(, just trying to help that one individual be a little bit safer and take extra simple steps to
*reduce his chances* of being injured. I figured it's better to help rather than just say "Don't do it" if they're going to do it
anyways. The way I see it that's HOW mistakes happen,....mis-information or NO information at all.
I know this wasn't/isn't specifically directed at me, but I can't help but feel that way because I am new to this forum, haven't
posted all but two posts, and I have only been recently (like 2-months) been making explosives, even though I have LOVED
them my whole life.
None the less I greatly appriciate your constructive critisism and care. Even if it's not about the people involved but rather the
field of energetic materials itself. I understand your POV. I only hope you try to understand mine.;)
CHEERS
megalomania January 18th, 2008, 03:11 PM

The opening scene from the movie Arlington Road comes to mind, the bloodied child walking in shock down the middle of the
street after his explosives accident.
Primary explosives readily detonate from friction and impact, both conditions which are present if you launched an explosive
from anything. Acetone peroxide in particular is a very sensitive primary explosive.
I will not say it can't be done, or it should never be done, but for your own sake you need to be very familiar with the safety
aspects of an explosive before you start tinkering around. If there was an accident, and the plasticized AP did explode in the
barrel of the gun when fired, think about what would happen. Is the round powerful enough to destroy the gun? Will the gun
be next to you face? Will the barrel shatter? Is the gun built strong enough to channel the energies harmlessly down the
barrel? Are there safety features you can design into the device to minimize an accident?
Weapon designers don't just take a gun off the design table, hand it to a soldier, and point him to the nearest battlefield.
They fire the thing remotely, try to simulate and induce failures, and make sure the thing works before letting a human
anywhere near it.
gaussincarnate January 18th, 2008, 09:48 PM

In my experience, paintball gun barrels are not the most sturdy things ever invented. I used to paintball rather frequently,
and I have seen people break barrels on accident before (long story involving a very stupid person with nothing to do). I would
suggest trying to fire it without a barrel the first few times. Yes, I know that it will do little more than roll out of the gun, but it
would give the blast somewhere to go, just in case.
On the bright side, most paintball guns are electronic, so remotely firing them should be considerably easier than remote
firing mechanical weapons.
Also, although this involves neither AP nor paintball guns, it may be useful. I have fired those little popper things discussed in
another thread (silver fulminate extraction?) from a blowgun before, and it did not detonate (until impact). Even though they
are two entirely different substances, it does show that it is reasonable to expect that sensitive materials could survive
comparable accelerations out of a paintball gun and thus make it out of the barrel. Still better to be safe than sorry, however.
Kaydon January 19th, 2008, 01:34 AM

I wouldn't go as far to say most paintball markers are electronic, the majority are mechanical. Speedball has grown so much in
popularity that the manufacture of electronic markers, or electronically assisted mechanicals (e.g. e-grip, electronic loaders)
has increased, but that's about it.
I believe the strongest paintball barrel made to be the DYE Boomstick many moons ago, the one that weighed around 3lbs.
The one you could use as a weapon if you had to. It was like a billy club.
wolfy9005 January 19th, 2008, 04:28 AM

How about a paintball/marble with a string connected to a small bottle with the sensitive stuff in it(or a mini-molotov?).
Winston Bailey January 20th, 2008, 01:50 AM

This would not be smart. A string attatched to a small bottle would definitely cause more than enough shock(from being ripped
or pushed by the paintball/marble) to cause det. that is of course if using any primary HE. Not the MC but who wants a vial of
flammable liquids broken inside your gun??? :rolleyes:
OFF TOPIC A BIT

A slingshot would definitely be a better idea. Plus there would be no need for the marble/pb.
CHEERS
gaussincarnate January 22nd, 2008, 09:32 PM

Come to think of it, if you really, really wanted to waste money, Armorech (I believe) sells barrels that you could probably
shoot a real bullet out of. They make a number of scale models of real weapons (essentially the same, just with everything
scaled up for the .68 bore), so the barrels are almost invincible. The guns themselves were actually machined steel
throughout, not stamped. Great way to get suckers to buy something wholly unnecessary just because it sounds cool.
I knew someone who had one of those, a model SR-25, if I remember right, and he always talked about how it was
indestructable (and the whole unit weighed about 15 lbs, unloaded). Stupid? Yes. Useful just this one time? Maybe.
Charles Owlen Picket January 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM

Not many people are aware of the level of research that goes into steel production. The steel used in weapon's barrels is a
great example. People can do things with steel that were simply unimaginable several decades ago. The level of pressure that
chambers can manage is fantastic and it's not through rigidity alone that this is achieved. There is a ballooning effect that is
actually controlled via micro crystalline enhancement in production dynamics.
It's not a good idea to experiment with pressure spikes unless you have a bit of a background in related engineering. What
may appear to "handle" a level of pressure can actually be forming fissures unseen by the eye at the casual level.
You can setup a remote firing mechanism and everything appears to be going well but actually rending before your eyes
(undetermined by casual glance). The height of stupidity was the use of plumbing pipe in firearms by some crap-books. Be
very careful what you put your faith into.
iHME February 1st, 2008, 12:26 PM

if you really, really wanted to waste money, Armorech (I believe) sells barrels that you could probably shoot a real bullet out
of.
Why buy a paint ball when you could just buy a proper barrel and don't even think that you could fire 12 gauge shot shells with
a paint ball gun bolt or receiver.
A kid died recently because he was too stupid to remotely test his invention, which was doomed from the start. He loaded a 12
gauge shell in to his paint ball gun an pulled the trigger. He died later at the hospital.
But if you want to make a real weapon from a paint ball gun make it in .22lr or similar. Heres a example (The posters English
is simply horrible. ):
The newer thread with blurry pictures (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=20033)
The original thread with sharper pictures (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=16197)
Only if he would write better English and take better pictures...

If the links don't work register to the forum, it is worth it, a forum full of people building firearms. Need I say more? :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > flamethrowers
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View Full Version : flamethrowers
ALENGOSVIG1 January 3rd, 2001, 12:41 AM

Does anyone have any information regarding home made flamethrowers?
Agent Blak January 3rd, 2001, 01:01 AM

There is a Copy of Dragons Breath(Ragnar Benson) floating around here somewhere.
------------------
"It has To Start Some Where, It Has To Start Some Time;
What Better Place Than Here, What Better Time Than Now!!"
--RATM
ALENGOSVIG1 January 3rd, 2001, 01:42 AM

yeah, i was wondering where i could get that..any one know??
NightStalker January 3rd, 2001, 06:06 PM

I know how to make a flamethrower that will work good and be as safe as possible for such a homemade device...
There are 2 things needed:

- a fire distinguisher (don't know how it is spelled)
- dry ice
You open the distuinguisher remove all of its contents an clean it very well..
to the tubing that normally sprays out the content you attach a piece of metal pipe, about 10 cm long. Be sure you get a fire
distinguisher where the "trigger" is mounted near the nozzle not on top of the casing cause this has several disadvantages
namely you can't use it without holding the (very heavy) thing in your hand and the tubing will not be sealed when you stop
using the device...
then you remove the trigger/nozzle device and push some steel wool into the tubing.
This will prevent flames going back into your fuel depot and blowing it up...
to the primarily attached metal pipe you now attach an ignition device (pencil torch, bigger torch).
your flamer is now ready for use...
Filling and using:
fill in your fuel to till the casing is toally filled. THIS IS IMPORTANT cause you don't wanna have any air in it that could form
explosive gases...
now fill in the dry ice and close the device.
you will loos some of the fuel that will be pushed out while filling in the DI and closing but this is not important...
Now to use it just light your ignition device and pull the trigger... I had about 15 metres of flame with the one i built.
But i tried it only once, so something totally different could happen...
Be sure not to fill it before you wanna use it cause your fuel could attack the plastic parts like vents and so on and also open
and clean it directly after you used it...
BE FUCKING CAREFULL IF THIS THING EXPLODES NEAR YOU YOU ARE DEFINETLY DEAD OR BURNED HEAVILY...
I wouldn't ever tell someone to make such a device cause it is too unsafe although i mentioned many things that improve
savety to a point where it is not likely to blow up...
but it is alway possible that such things happen....
------------------
Death stalks silently....
ALENGOSVIG1 January 3rd, 2001, 06:32 PM

ok..so where do you put the dry ice?...in the fuel?
------------------
http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/alspalace/
Ctrl_C January 3rd, 2001, 09:03 PM

this one isnt hard at all...just get some kind of container that can be opened and resealed airtight (i was thinking possibly a 5
pound co2 cylinder but i dont know if it is possible to put liquid in it) and fill it 3/4 with kerosene and then pressurize it with a
small co2 tank for a paintball gun. hook it up to a hose with a "t" in it and have one line go to an always on ignitor that goes
in front of a second trigger/nozzle assembly that the 2nd line goes to.
the kerosene is always lit in the ignitor and when you squeeze the trigger, it shoots pressurized kero through a nozzle that
projects it into a fine stream through the ignitor....effectivly lighting it.
the ignitor would have to be under lower pressure than the trigger assembly and some sort of flashback arrestor would be
needed...
********************************************
oh yah...i just remembered that at the old forum...somebody had taken a can of wd-40 and put one of those spray paint can
triggers on it and taped a pocket torch in front of the can. if i remember from the pictures right, it produced a nice size flame.
however wd-40 reeks when it burns due to the oil.
[This message has been edited by Ctrl_C (edited January 03, 2001).]
Edd January 3rd, 2001, 09:16 PM

no, that wasn't the old forum, that was the film arachnaphobia...........seriously, a spray can? that's not a flame thrower!

its good enough for his purposes.....plus a hell of a lot easier
ALENGOSVIG1 January 3rd, 2001, 09:31 PM

what are some fuels that i could use?..im thinking mabe a very thin napalm but i think you would have to clean the gun after
or else it would dry and clog it up..mabe a 50:50 petrol, oil/kerosine?.
i wounder it if would be possible to pressurize the tank with a flammible gas like butane..or would it be too riskt if the tank
pressure got too low..mabe attach a pressure gauge? input please!
BoB- January 3rd, 2001, 10:21 PM

The $5 pocket dragon, I forget who posted it (short-term memory loss from newyears http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/cwm32.gif )
It was Starter fluid (which is primarilly Ether) with a spray-paint trigger sprayer attached and a matchbook pull ignitor taped in
the line of spray.

yeah....the Pocket Dragon thats it.
ALENGOSVIG1: i would recommend straight kero because anything more volatile may flash back into the tank and just ruin
your whole day
NightStalker January 4th, 2001, 09:02 AM

you fill in the dry ice into the fuel cause it evaporates directly to co2 making a constant pressure....
NEVER use flamable gases... it would explode as soon as the fuel isn't running constantly through the line...
------------------
nbk2000 January 4th, 2001, 10:35 AM

I made the pocket dragon. It's not really a new idea but I did make some improvements.
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/pocketdragon.GIF
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/flame.GIF
The flame is about 8 feet long in this picture. More than enough to incinerate someone in a room or hallway.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Zero January 4th, 2001, 11:34 AM

If you ask me, I'd attach an Aim'n'Flame or better yet a soldering torch to the end of that. The torches are nice because
they're windproof, but the Aim'n'Flame has a nice long nose so your fingers don't get anywhere near the flame.
------------------
~Zero the Inestimable
The A Files (http://www.delanet.com/~drendall/files/A.zip)
{Link is a direct download.}
BaDSeeD January 4th, 2001, 02:47 PM

Ahh flame throwers. Here is something i can add some interesting info about. Bear with me however, because i dont have a
scanner, or digital camera, so you'll have to pay attention to know what the hell i'm talking about.
Most parts for my flame thrower are machined from stainless steel, however a well stocked plumbing store will probably give
you enough parts to make one. Ok where to start.
First what i used for my propellant was a propane tank for a brazing torch. You know those disposable blue canisters that cost
about 2 or 3 dollars at home depot. I had originally intended for this to lay down horizontally, as the gun i was making was
meant to be held in one hand, with the guts overlapping my forearm. Similar to a galico subgun. Needless to say, the gas
didnt flow properly with the tank laying at that angle (not for long anyhow). I switched to a smaller propane tank used for
coleman lanterns (same brand tank), its slightly wider, but much shorter, and this i mounted threads down (upside down).
From the tank, I made an expansion chamber that has corogations on it to make the liquid propane expand quicker
(corrugations dissipate more heat, or cold as it were). This is simply to increase the pressure that i am getting out of the small
tanks. From there, the main line breaks off into a "Y" shape. I have a small feed that goes to the front of the gun for a
constant flame to light my fuel as it exits the barrel. This is set up with a simple ball valve so i can adjust, and shut off the
flame. Its a lousy flame, similar to a zippo with an orange flame, and a bit of carbon (not enough oxygen i know). It blows out
occasionally.. but works ok for now. Back to the main line, after another valve to shut off the propane, i have my fuel cylender.
This is also machined from stainless steel, but a large piece of pipe if threaded would work fine as well. The main line from
the propane comes into the cap on my fuel tank, with another purge valve on the side. I know lots of valves.. but they are
neccesary, i'll explain. When the tank is filled (i use gasoline) you can not possibly get all the air out of the tank. So i dont try
to. I simply fill the tank about 80% full, cap it, (point the gun barrel down) then open the valve to my propane tank to
pressurize the fuel cylender, then open the purge valve on the side of the tank to bleed off some of the gas. I leave the
purge valve open for a few seconds so that it will hopefully replace all of the air in the tank with propane. I'm still here, and
not in a burn ward, or grave, so you know it works. At the other end of my fuel cell is where the barrel starts. Its fairly short,
only four inches, and threaded into the bottom of the fuel tank. The nozzel on the end of the barrel is just a zerk fitting, i just
grinded the tip of it, until it freed the ball and spring, and pulled those out. Right behind the nozzel is my trigger valve. Its a
simple lever type ball valve, that i have rigged up to a makeshift trigger. It has a spring return on it to close when i have
released the trigger. The flame beyond the nozzel is set about two inches in front of the nozzel, and about an inch low. It
flexible tubing.. and easy to adjust.
Now for the problems i have found. First off. The whole thing as i said is mounted in line to fit onto your forearm. The only way
i have been able to control it is to strap it to my arm. Now as you can see.. if something goes wrong... you cant exactly drop it
in a hurry. Secondly.. when full it weighs about 25 pounds. Not exactly a light weight. Third the trigger pull is about 10 pounds
(enough to make the federal government happy). Fourth even with the expansion chamber to up the pressure on the gun.. it
only gives me about 35 - 40 feet of flame. I have tried different nozzels, and thickening the gasoline.. but 35 - 40 is the best
i can seem to get. Fifth and last.... with the 35 - 40 feet, which isnt all that bad, i only have about 4 seconds of fuel. Sorry
should have put this before, the fuel cell holds about 1 liter.
Maybe i'll build a back pack model next.

I'll also try and draw this up, or get some pictures scanned to add.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
Agent Blak January 4th, 2001, 03:06 PM

I saw a guy's web site that had plans like that for sale. That sounds like good design but you could improve it buy adding a
simple torch head and maybe a Cricket igniter(Static Spark).
------------------
--RATM

I think I should just add that people seem to be affraid of flamthrowers exploding on them. Unless their is air in the fuel line
then theor is no danger of a flash back. Even if the flame does flash back into the tank, the tank won't explode unless their is
perfect fuel/air ratio in there. Even if this mixture exists, the pressure generated by the combustion wouldn't be enough to
explode the tank - think spudgun.
Another old favourite is the "petrol in a super-soaker" shame the gun dissolves after a while. In which case you could use
soemthing like an alcohol.
NightStalker January 4th, 2001, 07:42 PM

I had one of those superspoaker things exploding in a remote-fired test dry...
fuel was kerosene/gas mix..
Now you understand why i have a lot of respect for those things???
------------------
SofaKing January 4th, 2001, 08:01 PM

I did the starter fluid thing, really fun I think it's that exact same brand as the picture. I also did the super soaker thing
worked well but fused the gun together.
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug

How do you mean "explode"? I mean is if it leaks/ruptures and catches fire then it hasn't exploded. But if it goes "Ka-fucking-
boooooooooom!" they'd I'd say it actually exploded!
I agree that certianly these things demand respect, but I think that being sprayed with fuel from a leak is the biggest danger.
vehemt January 4th, 2001, 09:19 PM
Naptha would work in a super soaker, but it would make the flexible tubing inside brittle.
ALENGOSVIG1 January 5th, 2001, 01:26 AM

nbk: can u post the plans for that lil frame thrower please?
------------------
vehemt January 5th, 2001, 03:02 AM

ALENGOSVIG1: it is just an ether starting fluid can with a spray paint handle attached. A match book pull ignitor has been
added also.
BoB- January 5th, 2001, 05:42 AM

Theoretically, if there is absolutly any amount of liquid fuel in your chamber, then the F/O ratio would be way under the
ignition point,
*BUT!* the chamber may become heated causing the gas's inside to expand beyond the chambers pressure rating...in other
words, boom.
The people that make WD-40 got wind of a manufacturing flaw allowed people to create massive fireballs with there product,
they since changed the propellant and the valve design,
the people that make aerosol products are liable for EVERYTHING there customers do with there product, I'm sure most name-
brand manufactuers are very careful in there design's.

My one actually exploded...
it made ka-Fucking-BOOM the tank was shattered and burnig fuel was spit around...
I still don't know how this happened but it did...
Probably it was cause the fuel slowly dissolves the tank and so weakens it...
And as it is a super soaker you pump air in so you get a compressed explosive mixture of gases that can explode..
------------------

Sounds like you got a simple pressure bottle explosion.
Agent Blak January 6th, 2001, 02:51 AM

The CO2 is A Great Idea Because if the flame does Follow it back in to the Tank the CO2 will Smuther it be displacing the O2.
Any of you Saw the Pump Sprayer for Paint and Pesticide(or a pump fire extingisher(Sp?)). You would olny have to modify the
nozzel so it will shot in more of a stream(Easily done.)
------------------
--RATM

yeah, that was the basic idea of using co2...
i thought of those pesticide sprayers too cause i have one at home but i threw this idea away after the super soaker
exploding...
(it was a pressure bottle explosion)
------------------
Agent Blak January 6th, 2001, 02:38 PM

I thought that going from High Preasure to Low Preasure should keep it fairly Cool. Like when you have your BBQ going for
awhile and then you touch the tank and it is cold; Condinsation(or frost sometimes) has formed on the outside of the tank.
------------------
--RATM
Bandit March 14th, 2001, 05:14 PM
Sorry about brining up an old topic but, i was reading badseed's reply and was wonding if anyone could explain the expansion
chamber he talks off. Is it just a pipe for the gas to expand or am i missing somthing?
Bandit
c0deblue March 14th, 2001, 06:42 PM

Bandit: The expansion chamber to which BaDSeed refers simply promotes a higher propane vapor pressure (and flow rate)
than would otherwise be possible. To illustrate the problem: At 90 degrees Fahrenheit the vapor pressure of propane is 149.3
psig, whereas at -20 degrees the vapor pressure is only 10.7 psig. High rates of evaporation (as in this application) exert a
powerful self cooling effect on the LP reducing its vapor pressure and delivery rate (this is why a CO2 canister gets so cold
when rapidly discharged, for example). A separate finned chamber allows an increased surface area for the liquid propane and
promotes absorption of heat from the ambient air, thereby reducing the self cooling effect and maintaining a higher pressure
and delivery rate. In industrial high flow rate applications (such as propane fueled engines), electrically heated evaporation
chambers are commonly used.
BoB- March 14th, 2001, 08:05 PM

NBK: what I've always liked about your idea is that you could secure a string to the pull-cover, then tie the other end around
your shoulder, one handed flamethrower.
phyrelord March 17th, 2001, 05:57 PM

does anyone have Ragnar Bensons book about flamethrowers? Oh has anyone else seen fix-a-flat burn it fucking rocks, i
threw it in a fire and when it exploded it looked like napalm everywhere it was pretty cool. Also silly string makes a nice
flamethrower and it sticks on contact. I was watching a clip of a couple sitting down at their wedding when someone sprayed
silly string across the candles and POOF, flames everywhere, scared the hell out of the couple
SofaKing March 22nd, 2001, 02:08 AM

Hehe that reminds me of ash (Evil dead 2) and the one handed chainsaw Hail to the king baby ! The can o' flame works pretty
well but has a short range, the best fuels being starter fluid, and carb cleaner. A ineresting common fuel is bakers joy (pam
with flour) fairly good for a cooking item !
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
blackadder March 22nd, 2001, 04:03 PM

hey, phyrelord, I saw that video as well.
Some dick sprayed it everywhere, it ignited, but only burnt for half a second, and then went out. No harm was done!
DaRkDwArF March 24th, 2001, 05:33 AM

I would definatly suggest a refillable water fire extinguisher (one with the repressurizing vavle thats compatable with car tyre
inflators) just remove the tubing on it and replace with copper piping, fill it 3/4 with your mix, pressurize it and get a pen
blowtorch from your hardware store to attach to the front for an ignitor...
Bitter April 15th, 2001, 03:43 PM

Check this out.
http://www.zianet.com/paulsplans/page4.htm
richl261 April 15th, 2001, 07:06 PM

lol the man on that page looks like chewbacca with a shaved mouth http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

more to the point, sweet flamethrower though http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
blackadder April 15th, 2001, 07:20 PM

Hmmm, I wonder how he made that flamethrower? Anyone got any ideas? I'm thinking he pressurised a tank, and when he
fired it he releases the pressure valve on both the propane and the tank, oh god, I'll just shutup now.

i dunno...send off for the plans and find out http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

I know that was a joke, but fucken hell, this guy charges people money for spudgun plans!!! That's bloody ridiculous! There's
hundreds of spudgun sites that give the fucken plans for free, but he goes and charges people???!!! Damn, that is just wrong!!
Such a mean thing to do, that annoys me immensely!
About the flamethrower, I bet there's plans on the net somewhere, just have to look.
Agent Blak April 18th, 2001, 04:02 PM

Check out Predetor's site. I for get the Url though. he has some PHAT plans. instead of the Lighter I would use a wind proof
torch.
------------------
Anthony April 18th, 2001, 04:22 PM

The flamable liquid is probably held in the PVC pipe and is pressurised by the propane bottle. Probably works just like a water
fire extinguisher. I hope he's not using petrol/gasoline since it doesn't go too well with PVC.

using the Propane tank to preasurise it seems like a really bad Idea to me.
[This message has been edited by Agent Blak (edited April 18, 2001).]
Mick April 19th, 2001, 03:12 AM

you can use an LPG BBQ tank for a flame thrower..
can't give you many details as i never really got a chance to talk with the guy that had it
basicly, all you do is invert the tank(ie. turn it upside down) attach some sort of gun to it with a hose (ie. the gun from a high
presssure sprayer - like a gernie) put a small pencil torch on the end of the gun, light the torch, turn the gas on, pull the
trigger
one big ass flame thrower...from what i remember, it put out a flame atleast 20-30ft long, and it was really really loud
also, there is very little chance of the flame going back down the gun, because the pressure of the fluid coming out the gun
keep the hose from the cylinder void of oxygen - thus it just can't burn back
green beret April 19th, 2001, 08:58 AM

does anyone have any detailed plans for a flame thrower that they would like to put up for download??
YTS April 19th, 2001, 02:51 PM

Just use a normal water extinguiser that has a co2 cartridge fill to thirds or to the water level with fuel of choice attach your
choice of ignition ie rag soaked in fuel fixed with lentgh of wire but what ever method it would take a bit of experimentation
because if you dont get it right the force of the fuel would put it out .it would also be good for spraying irritants ie ammonia .

YTS..i sort of understand what you are saying..not too clear with the two sentances though http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/smile.gif
blackadder, check out http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/main.html
a lot of spud gun plans and where to find parts in the UK
blackadder April 20th, 2001, 11:42 AM

richl, I know about that site, I saw it there before I even came on this forum. It's anthony's site.

oooops sorry hehe my mistake http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
omega1141 April 20th, 2001, 10:52 PM

Hi
I'm not sure but does that mean that any pump pressurized sprayer can be powered by Dry Ice without the need for pumping
(i.e a supersoaker that you don't need to pump) because with just enough Dry Ice in there it should keep the pressure up?
Anthony April 21st, 2001, 03:19 PM

Yes, you can pressurise containers with CO2 using dry ice. Just don't put too much on or you've got a dry ice bomb!
SofaKing April 23rd, 2001, 06:38 AM
I have warmed to the idea of using a fire extinquisher to make a flame thrower. But I do not know how to pressurize the tank
without using dry ice. One possible method would be to use a number of disposable lighters tweaked so that the gas is
leaking then closing it. The main problem would be making sure their is enough pressure, a plus is that the fuel might
disslover the plastic casing and make it simpler.
------------------
With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
BoB- April 23rd, 2001, 09:51 AM

I used to dream about making bangs by taping down the "handles" on butane lighters and dropping them into wide mouthed
16-oz PET water bottles, 1 lighter would swell the thing to a much larger diameter that will make you *very* nervous, we'd then
throw bricks on them to get them to bust very loudly... those are dangerous dreams, not to be attemted.
Butane would pressurize to an extent, but it turns into a liquid at a low pressure (it can be held as a liquid in a plastic lighter)
so you wouldnt get much distance.
omega1141 April 23rd, 2001, 09:41 PM

I tried making a flamethrower with a pressurised garden sprayer the other night.
I used Dry Ice to pressurise it and had a mix 50/50 Methalated Spirits/Kerosene.
It only shoots about 15ft But it worked pretty well the dry ice overpressurized it at one point and it just started spraying out by
its self. But I wouldn't use a flamable gas to pressurize it if I were you because if the flame goes back into the container it
wouldn't be pretty, at least wit the Dry Ice the Co2 stops the flame.
YTS April 24th, 2001, 07:30 PM

SofaKing just use an old water fire extinguisher unscrew the lid which is also the trigger & you will find a large co2 bulb thats
what pressurizes it no need for dry ice i have 2 of these extinguishers & you can still buy them as far as i know

I should reassure you that the flame won't flash back into there if there isn't O2 present. Even if there was
O2 present, the flame wouldn't be able to burn in there, since that there has to be a PERFECT air fuel mixture in
there, for example, if you had butane inside your tank, then, for the tank to explode, you would need to have a mixture of 3-
6% butane and 94-97% air.

In theory if you were using air to pressurise the fuel and the flamethrower ran practically empty, you could get a perfect fuel/
air mixture. It probably wouldn't matter if the mix did explode if you were using a water fire extinguisher since they can easily
handle the pressure it would generate. It's still worth avoiding though just in case!

Anthony, what about propelling your fuel with something like butane, so the whole air fuel thing could be eliminated, since
there wouldn't be any O2 present in the system?

Yeah that would work.
PYRO500 April 26th, 2001, 07:28 PM

that gives me some great ideas! as butane becomes a liquid at low pressures you could purge an enviroment of all air then
you could make an arisol propelent flame thrower, I currently have one idea in mind for a flamethrower made using a butane
tank, I will draw it up in a few min and post it later
PcThUg2ooo May 8th, 2001, 06:27 AM

NBK, that is a very nice looking creation. I was wondering if you would have a model number or brand for the attatchment for
the top of the can. I have looked far and wide but i dont think they make them here anymore. I am a car resprayer by trade
and remember using them a long time ago, i inquired but was not succsessful in finding the required part.
nbk2000 May 8th, 2001, 03:35 PM

The handles called "Can Gun". The manufactures phone # is 1-800-743-0115. US patent # 4,432,474.
------------------
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.
Anthony May 8th, 2001, 03:50 PM

You can get them from Kmart and also Homebase in the UK.
PcThUg2ooo May 12th, 2001, 04:50 AM
Thanx for the info NBK, it was really helpful.
PYRO500 May 12th, 2001, 06:37 PM

somewhere on the patent database I saw a patent for a self igniting top for any spray can, it had a flash back surpressor and
piezoelectric crystal ignitor, it was cool I will try to find it again
Bob_06 May 17th, 2001, 09:38 PM

Water fire extinguisher? Would you be able to get one of these at sutherlands, lowes, or orschelands? Could someone
describe one to me? Also does anyone know of a pretty easy to make flame thrower that has no chance of blowing up,
leaking, or anything to that extent? It doesn't have to be something a 15 year old drop out could make, just something that
you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out and to guild. I would also like to know if spray paint nozzles and/or starter
fluid nozzles are made to where if you were using them as a flame thrower the flame couldn't go back into the can and blow it
up. Thx. -Bob.
P.S. Sorry about spelling. I'm not a good speller or typer.
Zero May 21st, 2001, 01:36 PM

I just had an evil thought: How about one of those pressure washers you see on the racks at Home Depot? I'm not sure if the
thing would blow itself out, though. If it does, just drop a match on whatever you sprayed with fuel...
PYRO500 May 21st, 2001, 05:43 PM

hey, you know those shaving cream gel containers that spray the foam a few feet, well, what it you disect an arisol can
somehow, drill a hole in the bottom and insert a schrader valve in there, then pull it into place, and to fill it remove the valve
core and pressurize with a bike pump, these should shoot a long stream with the cap provided or even better do this wih one
of those huge hair spray cans, with the shaving gel top it should spray in a liquid.
I am thinking about doing this and making a simple circuit to make an ignition spark so it wraps around the can and will burn
instantly without a visible pilot flame
-Colza- June 7th, 2001, 07:29 AM

I found the website for a wholesaler of the cangun (as in how many do you want per year), any one know a retailer site? I dont
think you get them here in NZ. If so buggered if I can find one!
blackadder June 8th, 2001, 06:44 PM

"It doesn't have to be something a 15 year old drop out could make"
Hey Bob_06, you'll be surprised what a 15 year old dropout can make!!! I'm fourteen, and I've made flamethrowers!
Age means bullshit!
CodeMason June 8th, 2001, 11:20 PM

I'm 13, and I've made more explosives than I can count.
Anthony June 9th, 2001, 02:31 PM

I'm 10 and cannot legally be held responsible for any of my actions. I really can get away with murder...muhahahahha!
Victim June 21st, 2001, 05:09 PM

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/main.html">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/main.html</a>this link
doesnt work for me? Has the address changed?
------------------
"Death, The End Of Hope, The Friend Of The Friendless..."
Anthony June 21st, 2001, 05:39 PM

You need a .htm extension rather than a .htmlhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/main.htm
ANTI-SYSTEM June 23rd, 2001, 10:02 AM

not a true flame thower but in a sence yes. my friend and i did th ol' "gas in front of potato with burning stick in front of the
barrel". works rather well if you want to make a 10x10 ball of flame for about 2 seconds. witch is a long time when it comes to
massive balls of fire.
richl261 July 4th, 2001, 10:51 AM

does anyone know what the "can gun" is called in england? i looked on www.homebase.co.uk (http://www.homebase.co.uk) but
i couldnt find it... ill have to look around small garage shops then!
Anthony July 4th, 2001, 07:12 PM

It's the EXACT same as the ones in the US, I think it was homebase I saw it in, looking for stuff on those kind of websites is
pointless as stores never have the same stock (or the site is just plain useless).
richl261 July 6th, 2001, 04:11 PM

okay, ta
SawedOff8gaugeman July 8th, 2001, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by BaDSeeD:
I'll also try and draw this up, or get some pictures scanned to add.

http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 16, 2001).]
BaDSeeD July 19th, 2001, 01:28 PM

No one seemed too interested in the design, so I didn't waste my time by drawing schematics.
And at the moment, I am working on a marketable weapon system. If I can get a couple bugs out, and get a patent for it, it
could be worth quite a bit to the military, or police.
Which do you think should take the priority here? Something that can make a shitload of money? Or wasting time on
something else, that no one showed much interest in?
By the way, I also don't have a website to upload pictures to anyhow. And i'm not going to waste even more time in getting
one.
------------------
BaDSeeD
twinkle August 17th, 2001, 02:03 PM

just a link to some in info though in German but it gives some measurements
http://waffenhq.de/infanterie/flammenwerfer41.html
Demolition August 19th, 2001, 08:35 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/flame.gif
How are they able to get such a long flame?
------------------
Yeah,what up Detroit
Demolition
Mr Cool August 19th, 2001, 09:28 AM

With careful experimentation to find out the best sort and size of nozzle, and the viscosity, flammability and volatility of the
fuel.
Anyone tried making a little shotgun type of thing and converting the shells into little napthalene charges? Not quite the same,
but it could also be fun. Just a tip for anyone who likes napthalene charges: mononitronapthalene ignites more easily. Or you
could use a little bag of petrol in the shell instead.

they use a mixture with oil so when you ejected it stays more a liquid when you would use only gasoline this would vaporize
directly into gas also the nozzle is important there are commercial sold nozzles
they have all kind of shapes like in sprinkler installations making screens but also in beam form probably they are using
something like it
PYRO500 June 12th, 2002, 04:13 PM

Yesterday I got bored with the conventonal can gun pocket dragon design so I decided to rip apart my el-cheapo 15$ stun gun
that feels like a tens unit. I designed the decive relitively quickly with rubber bands and duct tape holding it together, although
tomorrow I hope it'll be hotglue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> The device was very simple to produce
and is nothing more than a momentary push button behind the triger that can be adjustable via nut and the stun gun
transformer and pulsing circuit atached to the top of the can gun. For the spark gap for now it's just some pins rubber banded
to the side of the front of the can gun bent inwards. The device is very rugged for it's looks and I'd feel confident of it working
if I were to trow it in a box for a while or put it in my pocket it would still be firable. to save battery life (and safety!) I
designed the switch to only go off when the trigger is squeezed very hard against the can. I left the safety switch on there as
well as I don't wanna get jolted while working on it, I tried to fit the internals inside the device but even with the internal snap
connectors removed there wasn't enough room. I hope to eventually get this so rugged that you could throw it relitively hard
against the ground and still have it work. here are the pics sorry for the quality but these were the cream of the crop (don't buy
ixla cameras!)
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/dsc_001.jpg" alt="" />
[ June 12, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Devils Knight June 12th, 2002, 05:04 PM

You should crop the pictures down to size, I mean is there any relative information about us seeing your arm/surrounding
area? But other than that, how long did it take you to put together?
PYRO500 June 12th, 2002, 05:34 PM

I'll crop them, as soon as I find my photoshop disk. it took me about two hours of soldering and de soldering and cutting to
fugure out there was no way I was going to fit it inside the gun If I were to redo this I could build one in about 15 min.
ALENGOSVIG1 June 12th, 2002, 08:31 PM

Ah i also had success using electrical ignition for pocket dragons. I simply used bbq ignitor :)
Heres a pic:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/linux/alengg/pd.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/linux/alengg/pd.jpg</a>
copy and paste it.
PYRO500 June 13th, 2002, 11:18 PM

I just recently hot glued the thing together (magic stuff) and changed the battery for better faster sparks. I also built a new
refillable arisol can out of a relitivly small hairspray can that sprayed water in a very good mist. unfortunately the epoxy
cracked and I am currently letting the epoxy seal dry. I plan on using BBq grill lighter fluid (mostly kerosene) for it it should
look very nice and give an nice hot flame with black smoke :) when I finish the can I will try to take some video so expect
some video when I finish this, also I added a safety where the hammer drop on a real gun would be, it is a simple slide switch
witch was the original safety with the top of the switch that was on the outside of the stun gun. it works really nice and if I keep
squeezing the trigger the full way I get the flame closer to the grip than if I were to simply let the flame keep the stuff lit by
itself. when the battery runs low it pulses kind of slow and the flame will roar at every pulse causing the fireball to expand
slightly witch is kind of fun yet scary I have some pictures below that I just took these are slightly better than the first ones.
Here's a shot showing the left side of the gun witch has nothing on it except a stripe of tape holding the battery onto the other
side you can also se the needle spark gap witch can be bent for diffrent types of can sprays for least interference with the
spray.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/rprofgrp.jpg" alt="" />
Here is a shot of the back of the gun, you can see the original electrodes of the stun gu with wire attached to them (necessary
as a safety gap to avoid damage wshould the spark be blocked (internal arcing in the transformer can destroy it))
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/gripl.jpg" alt="" />
Here is a shot of the top showing the circuit board from the stun gun and the HV transformer (the big round thig) that steps up
the voltage.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/gripr.jpg" alt="" />
Here is a photo of the top of the gun that shows the arcing at the tip of the needles although it looks like one of the stun
gun's orignal electrodes is arcing, it isn't it is far away from the needles and ins simply in the foreground
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/gspk.jpg" alt="" />
(Edit: the can I am making refillable is the consort hairspray can in the first set of pictures tell me what you think.)
[ June 13, 2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
McGuyver June 17th, 2002, 09:08 PM

If you don't care about size two much, take a look at the fertilizer sprayers. I got one with a half-gallon tank so it's pretty
small. I also got the brass replacement spraying rod for fear of the plastic one melting once it caught fire. I mostly use
gasoline but I need to try something with a faster burn rate, because the gasoline comes out too fast and the whole stream
doesn't burn (the end). For ignition right now, I just have a piece of copper wire attached to the spray rod that holds a rag
soaked in naptha or gas. I've never had any kind of problem with flash back. The spray rod caught on fire many times and
the flame was right where it comes out. For the aerosol can idea- try to convert one of those bee nest sprayer things- those
suckers shoot a good 20 feet! :D
Celtick June 18th, 2002, 10:56 AM

Just to make you guys horny :D
Take a look at these photographs from a live Rammstein concert. I saw them live; there pyrotechnical shows are really great,
perfect music for Forum members <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<img src="http://www.almostrammstein.com/pictures/stills/lab/16wol30.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.almostrammstein.com/pictures/stills/lab/16wol37.jpg" alt=" - " />
Or this Flamethrower mounted on a headset :rolleyes:
<a href="http://www.herzeleid.com/images/shared/gallery/cleveland01/22.jpg" target="_blank">Mounted Flamethrower</a>
MrSamosa June 18th, 2002, 04:57 PM

Rammstein are bloody crazy. They must have 10 different types of flamethrowers and 20 other pyrotechnic-related tricks they
do... Then there's the dildo w/ the hose attatched, but I won't get into that.
Anyhow, I work at a gas station for a bit of extra money. I'm not really a formal employee, just the manager's son...so I'm
payed out of his pocket.
This post got me thinking. Over here, we have plenty of old pump handles, gas line, nozzles, etc. Do you suppose that a
pump handle would make a good part for a flamethrower? As the part that sprays the fuel (i'm not sure what it's called). I
doubt it would have enough pressure behind it, but I'm sure a few modifications could fix this problem. Also, as a flash-back
arrester, we sell something called "pipe screen" that are used for tobacco pipes. They cost about $1.60 USD. What they are
are little stainless-steel screens. Perhaps you've seen them. The thing is, I'm not sure if the holes in them would be small
enough to serve as a flametrap; but if they are, that's a great way to find one.
Gasline. This is perfect for a flamethrower to attatch the fuel-supply to the actual gun. I think this is the best line to use.
As far as the little fire that goes in the front of the flamethrower to ignite the fuel...here's how the United States military did it.
You know how a gas stove works? Where you turn it so far and it makes little sparks and then you turn it some more to let the
gas in? It's the same concept. What you would do is have a cylindar of butaine with a gas line or propaine-stove style line
connecting it to the flamethrower's nozzle. At the nozzle would be a spark plug.
The flamethrower-gun itself would have 2 triggers: One that makes the spark plug spark (use 2 "D" sized batteries, I think),
and one to shoot the fuel.
What this does is when you turn on the butaine, you light it with the sparkplug. The butaine will sustain the flame and keep it
in a perfect position: right in front of the fuel-nozzle. This avoids having to light a stick or a burning rag to keep in front of the
gun.
I hope this post was helpful and I haven't been repeating old knowledge. I've been lurking around this forum for a while and
went through this entire thread a few times before, but I'm on a free AOL connection I installed on the computer here...i don't
want to waste my minutes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
A-BOMB June 19th, 2002, 12:34 AM

You are wrong, the US's flamerthroghers use flare cartiges that last just long anothe to ignite the fuel jet. Though it does use
a battery a 26.5 volt if I remember my manuals corretly.
Fl4PP4W0k June 20th, 2002, 07:59 AM

arrr... I'm pretty sure that 2 D-Cell batteries wouldnt QUITE be up to the task of making a spark gap. 3v at that low power? Me
no think so.
Just use a system similar to PYRO500, or if you dont mind wasting a bit of gas, have a wind-proof pilot light continuously
running (a small flame nozzle like those used on cheap butane windproof lighters).
If you want to make a flamethrower for damaging things\killing beesnests or whatever, a jet of flame is pretty poor. What you
want is a stream of Napalm :D
For example... Say an intruder enters your house? You do not want him to be there. You decide on charring him with a jet of
gas. This may slow him down a little, but hell be even more pissed off.
What I propose, is a can of propane\butane that pressurizes a small 1L or so tank of gooey napalm. Not overly thick... the
shit you make with polystyrene and gas is fine. Anyway... the container for the napalm would need to be metal... as petrol
tends to melt most plastics :p Basically... Have the propane continuously pressurizing the bottle of napalm (roughly 75psi)
and have a simple braided hose and ball valve - or one of those gas pump handles - at the muzzle end. Onto there would be
a pilot light or spark gap...
Im just thinking that something like that would be MUCH more fun.. and Vietnam-esque :mad:
l8r,
rob
PYRO500 June 20th, 2002, 07:17 PM

While Napalm may work well as a weapon in a war torn landscape with nothing you care about saving, most situations differ
from that in that you don't need splashing gooey napalm splashing around in all directions burning down anything it touches
now do you?
nbk2000 June 20th, 2002, 11:44 PM

Intruder in house...spray with liter of napalm and ignite...burn down house and everything in it...pyrrhic victory is yours!
:rolleyes:
Fl4PP4W0k June 21st, 2002, 10:43 AM

:/
bad example... I admit.
Fine... How about street riots?

Napalm would be good in an area like that...
Or driveby flame-throwing. I havent heard of that before :D
McGuyver June 23rd, 2002, 01:34 PM

Hey guys check this out- <a href="http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4892&BQ=jcw2" target="_blank">http://
www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4892&BQ=jcw2</a> This is a really nice rechargeable aerosol spray can, if you don't
mind the salty price. Even comes with multiple spray heads. All you need is an ignition system. Lowes sells a electronic spark
system to replace the BBQ igniter. It's incredibly small and light weight but it costs about $20 US.
[ June 24, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]
Sparky June 26th, 2002, 06:20 PM

I once read about a flamethrower that used a paints sprayer. You know those ones that run off air compressors. The guy put
paint thinner in and lit it with a propane torch I think. This would be really easy if you had an air compressor but it isn't very
portable.
Ron McDonald August 8th, 2002, 05:47 AM

Howstuffworks.com has a FLASH diagram that is very imformative. Propane, and white gas is a near ideal mix. The important
part is to test your design before you build a big one on your back.
Einstein August 8th, 2002, 07:54 AM

Was it Alen or Anthony who asked about Ragnar Bensons Dragon Breath? I had it on my computer and I put it on my
webpage so that you can see it :D <a href="http://koti.mbnet.fi/vaakkupr/paukut/BOTD.GIF" target="_blank">Breath Of The
Dragon</a>
KinePak August 8th, 2002, 08:58 AM

what do yall think about using a small say 40-pound sand blaster, its got all necessary shut off valves, it pressurizes the tank,
the hose is very strong, then only thing needed to be modified would be the sprayer and some sort of pilot light which wouldnt
be a problem, the only thing would be needed is an air compressor, but shit as long as you use a pressurized tank sand
blaster then it should work, or hell even try to rig up a way to move a flammable liquid thru a pressure washer, that would
shoot a flame about 50 feet. i know most of this might not work, but i am willing to give it a try if yall think it might be able to
be done
ElectricJesus February 14th, 2003, 10:33 PM

I got the idea from this thread (I think) to use a fire extinguisher.
What I did, was replace the seals in the valve (a poppet valve) with fuel-compatible o-rings, and extended the nozzle about a
foot and a half with high pressure fuel line supported by a mild steel tube that fit snugly around it, and a bracket to the main
body for support. The pilot light was a $10 propane torch duct taped to the side with the flame intersecting the fuel stream. I
used the stock fire extinguisher nozzle, as when pressureized to 100psi with shop air (in my garage) it shot the fuel about 30-
35 feet.
Pictures can be seen at <a href="http://www.pbase.com/electricjesus" target="_blank">Flamethrower pictures found here.</a>
Another board member(VoD)and I are currently working on a design with a backpack-mounted or shoulder slung 2.5gal
stainless steel tank, at a pressure of 130psi. Still pressurizing the tank with air untill proper C02 regulators are aqquired to use
paintball cyls to pressureize the tank at 120psi. It's in the build and initial testing/modification phases (sealing any leaks,
aesthetics, etc...)
Fuel is gasoline/kerosene or gasoline/diesel.
[ February 15, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: ElectricJesus ]
xyz February 15th, 2003, 08:53 AM

Kinepak, I wonder what would happen if you took the sandblaster and used Al or Mg powder instead of sand...
rjche February 15th, 2003, 09:09 PM

The unit I use is a standard couple gallons water type extinguisher that has a 100psi gage on it and a handle with Pull pin
safety, flexible hose and well designed nozzle to throw a stream quite a ways.
I refill it with 25% gasoline, 75% diesel and pump it up to 100 psi.
The weapon is to handle gang assaults to the front door.
In use it wets down everyone and they are told that any firearm fired will ignite the vapors and light them all. If it needs being
lit, another burst with a lighter at the nozzle sends a large flame out.
Another one tried but not not in use was a 5 gallon propane tank, (the older ones with high flow rate valve). Filled with
propane it had the same kind of fire extinguisher nozzle and hose.
To use it was inverted (or you can remove the valve and put a copper tube to the bottom of the tank so it exits liquid till
empty) and the valve turned full on. Two ways to use it.
One light the liquid instantly on exit, with any flame. This projects a cone of fire about 3 ft diameter at 15 ft, enough to make
the devil himself retreat.
Two, pour the liquid around the vicinity of the attackers. They will typically ha ha you for your thingy don't work. Inform all that
the gas is not at explosive concentration and any spark or gunfire will ignite it and implode them all. The blast from this thing
after about 30 seconds wait is window shattering to a fair distance. People in it are burn center cases if not landfill. Due to the
high pressure and high temp, third degree burns thorough clothing occurs.
Another less drastic one is a stainless steel fire extinguisher same as in the first type above, except the valve must be
removed and replaced with a pvc ball and handle quick opening valve and fittings to attach the extinguisher's hose and nozzle
to that valve exit.
NO BRASS may be used behind the valve or in the tank.
Fill with ammonia water, stronger the better. This in a few months dissolves brass to a crumbly mess so the warning above. It
has to have a pipe from the tank top and valve to the tank bottom, with a v notch in it so it can't jamb the bottom and restrict
flow.
This is liberally squirted on attacking ninjas. The ammonia water has zero surface tension so it penetrates armor, or anything
except a good CBW suit. The solution burn skin painfully about half minute after reaching it. It makes breathing a pain
instantly. Same for eyes, which slam shut from spasm. They can run from it but when they stop it builds up gas around them
and incapacitates them.
Such fire extinguishers can be found hanging on walls here and there, and at junk yards sometimes. Notice that the gages on
the extinguishers are brass and must be removed or they will eat out and the thing spray you unexpectedly. Put an inner tube
type valve fitting on the tank from plumbing supply where they are used on farm water tanks. they have quarter inch pipe
threads. Get a stainless steel one, NO BRASS, Not even chromed brass. Then pump it up with a regular tire pump or air supply.
Take it to 100 psi to get good effect. Use the extinguisher nozzle for they beat any home made thing.
These weapons can be installed in a home and have piping to take the working fluid out to the front or rear door.
If you use this device against storm troopers you will be called all things bad and if its the FBI a queer, (relic of J hoover
style). They will not treat you well. So if going for it go all the way, and do something to all those flaming ninjas or those
running in circles singing high C, warbled well. Put em out of their misery. Be kind to them, eventually. Do as they would do to
you.
Some pale assed prosecutor may charge you with having a destructive device if they discover these. I claim mine with petrol in
them are to set back fires in case of a forrest fire that threatens to over run the home. The ammonia one is to chase off
coyotes who will take over the place if not deterred. They ain't all that big, but like piranha they are numerous, and all want a
mouthful once the leader attacks. You simply cannot defend against a dozen little critters all munching on appendages, once
they attack. Same goes for two legged coyotes.
ossassin March 2nd, 2003, 03:51 PM

Does anyone know of a good flamethrower design that shoots a stream of napalm? Apparently the max range for a hand-held
military flamethrower is about 130 yards. Is there a way to get the plans for that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> I think that napalm would be your best option if you needed to use one outside.
kingspaz March 2nd, 2003, 05:13 PM

homemade napalm is too thick. IMO, 50/50 motor oil and petrol would be better.
stickfigure March 19th, 2003, 10:22 AM

I'm new to your forum and I'm asking an old question that someone asked about two years ago. Does anyone have a copy or
photo copies of "Breath of the Dragon" by Ragnar Benson or any Military Flamethrower manuals? Got cash...Will spend. I've
just purchased a M2-A2 regulator and I'm looking into powering it with a paintball 40oz. CO2 bottle. I need some direction on
what to use for the Gas Tanks. I'm looking at using old scuba tanks with special male adapters welded into the bottom and
titanium or stainless tubing for pressure lines on the backpack. The wand will have to be custom built by a machinist friend of
mine or by myself. Any schematics or design input would be greatly appreciated, right now I'm just doing research and
gathering up parts.
paintbatt October 11th, 2003, 10:44 AM

I found a copy of Breat Of The Dragon i have it posted a yahoo.com under the email section. the login name is
breathofthedragon2003 and the password it breathofthedragon i have it in the notepad section that you can access from the
menu at the top. the file name is breath of the dragon. Please dont change it.
DBSP October 11th, 2003, 11:20 AM

Nice of you to make it availible to us, only one problem. The notepad is limited to 5000 characters(might not be the right
word). So basicle it's only the introduction that is avalible. not the text itself.
If you could fix that that would be great. :)
paintbatt October 11th, 2003, 12:53 PM

ok i got it on there now under mail drafts. it is the only one and you just have to download the attachment.
paintbatt
teshilo October 11th, 2003, 02:19 PM

This book Breath of The Dragon avaiable on the this site http://swi.1av10.nu/dist/
A-BOMB October 11th, 2003, 09:14 PM

While I was looking at the site I found this file to be more informative and useful.
http://swi.1av10.nu/dist/pocflame.zip
E=mc2 October 12th, 2003, 04:59 PM

THE JIST
My friend built a flamethrower with a super soaker, mounted to a pumpkin for halloween.
he had a lit mesh at the end of the pump and the tank was filled with rubbing alcohol.
its a really makeshift homemade cheap thrill that can spray from 3 to 6 feet. but coming out of a pumpkin's face when you
don't expect it too is pretty cool....
SAFETY ISSUE
my friend almost set his house on fire using it in the garage....so be carefull...and alcohol can spill onto the user...watch out
for that....
if you can NEVER JUMP IN A POOL WHEN YOUR ON FIRE....CHLORINE BURNS (fortunately this is not from experience)
Hang-Man October 12th, 2003, 05:37 PM

Two of my friends got hit with flaming gas, one jumped in the pool and was fine, the other "stopped dropped and rolled" and
got third degree burns all over his body and ended up spending months in the hospital.
so be carefull...and alcohol can spill onto the user...watch out for that....
you don't need to point that out.
Rhadon October 12th, 2003, 06:19 PM

Quoting E=mc2
if you can NEVER JUMP IN A POOL WHEN YOUR ON FIRE....CHLORINE BURNS (fortunately this is not from experience) WTF??
Who told you that chlorine is flammable? And even if it was (which it's not), chlorinated pool water does only contain it in trace
amounts, if it contains elemental chlorine at all.
You'd do good to read this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?threadid=2774) or your next post could be your
last.
nbk2000 October 12th, 2003, 07:12 PM

A note to the new mods before I leave...
When a newbie posts something this stupid, kill on sight. It'll save you much wasted breath telling them to read the rules
because they never do. Besides, you need to sharpen your new claws on some k3wl bones to get into shape for the hunt. ;) :D
E=mc2 October 14th, 2003, 09:55 AM

thank you for pointing out to me that chlorine is NOT flammable!
which i already knew...what i was saying is that chlorinated water burns when you have open flesh especially by fire...and this
persons pool was over-chlorinated...
and I've read those rules....no need to mention it again....
Rhadon October 14th, 2003, 10:21 AM

thank you for pointing out to me that chlorine is NOT flammable! You're welcome, I use to help those who need it most.
what i was saying is that chlorinated water burns when you have open flesh especially by fire...If you actually think that it's
worse to extinguish your burning body with chlorinated water than getting severly injured or getting burned to death, you're
even more stupid than I could ever have imagined. Thanks for making me laugh!
Man Down Under January 8th, 2008, 12:44 PM

http://www.ursula-kuhr-schule.de/Chronik/Attentat/Attentat.html
A german website that has pictures of a mass-murder attack with a homemade flamethrower, made from a garden sprayer.
http://www.ursula-kuhr-schule.de/Chronik/Attentat/Raum.jpg
Notice the Hiroshima like shadow outlines? :D
Big Al January 14th, 2008, 07:29 PM

I have made a flame thrower out of an old 1970's fire extinguisher (its very heavy 38lbs full) the top unscrews I then pour in
my choice of fuel screw then cap back on. I pressurize it via shrader valve. I have drilled and tapped a hold in the tank.
Setharier June 29th, 2008, 05:43 PM

Anybody have ever tried this? I have an air compressor up to 8 Bars, and an adapter where one can attach red, about 1-litre
sized canister where the pressurized air sucks the stuff and pushes it out from the nozzle like hell. WOULD IT BE SUICIDE to
fill this canister with gasoline, attach an lighter unit at the muzzle and fire it away? 8 Bars of air and gasoline mixture meets
fire, it must be like huge torch. Should I try this tomorrow or just find out something more stright for making suicide..? ;)
iHME July 1st, 2008, 08:02 PM

I would not recommend this, atlest not while holding it. I'd recommend using some remote control system to fire it. And use
still some protective gear.
If it does "blow up" on your face and you don't burn to death please post some pictures to educate people from trying it.
When you get from the hospital...
Alexires July 1st, 2008, 10:47 PM

Setharier - If you used something like Nitrogen then I'd try it, but the whole idea of an air/gasoline mix being ignited then
burning back into the container, exploding, and covering you in gas doesn't really do it for me.
Perhaps you could use some kind of pressure exchange, such that the pressure from the air pushes on a plunger, which in
turn pushes on the fuel which is squirted out the nozzles at 8 bar to be lit....
Setharier July 3rd, 2008, 02:54 PM

I'll try this someday with remote control system. Short pulses and it might not be pulling back to the chamber. Actually as I
said, the canister is attached about 10cm from the nozzle and 5 meters long pressure wire goes to the compressor itself, and
liquids are sucked there by the underpressure caused by that flowing air. It does have a change, would not take a risk, but
technically I would say I just had a supertorch with neither cutting capability nor flamethrower destructive power.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > armoured car
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View Full Version : armoured car
McCoy June 20th, 2002, 04:15 PM

OOh no, not another guy pretending to do a big heist and blow up an armoured car. And he's just brand new here! What an
attitude!
Let me reassure you. I'm not pretending <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
I just want to know how thick the metal of the sides/top of a armoured truck is. Preferably the trucks they use in Europe
(Brink's Ziegler/Nedloyd e.g.). I guess it wouldn't be much more than 4mm would it? Otherwise the trucks would be extremely
heavy and should be called tanks, wouldn't they? I think they weigh about 7 or 8 tons, but I'm not sure. Any information is
welcome. And if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours, promise (well not literally of course...I'm more into blond long legged
females and not ugly pyromaniacs's but that's another topic).
[ June 22, 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: McCoy ]
vulture June 20th, 2002, 04:41 PM

Uhoh, seems there must have been some long legged blonde near when you posted this TWICE...and it is one of your first
posts... Better stick your head back in between the legs...
[ June 20, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
stanfield June 20th, 2002, 05:08 PM

the door is 2 mm of steel. Dunno for the top
Don't do something you'll regret later...
PYRO500 June 20th, 2002, 07:04 PM

I don't really think your serious, if you are you sure know how to spell conspiracy along with taking no steps to protect your IP
thus allowing your true ID to be determinable.
drstrangelove June 20th, 2002, 08:19 PM

I dont know how thick the armor is but not many people have succesfully broken in or blown there way into armored trucks..Its
just to much troble.
But every week armed men steal big money from those trucks.
They dont use sexy ambushes, explosives or any exotic tricks or scams they pull guns and demand the cash its that simple.
Unless your prepared to pull a gun and use it dont bother.
Something that made me laugh..This bloke robbed a armored car guard for his bag of money but the guard resisted and was
promply pistol whipped to the ground and the bandit escaped...the funny part is the guard lost his job because they are not
supposed to resist robbers.ha ha har <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
McCoy June 22nd, 2002, 11:16 AM

Of course I'm not serious. It's just my back up plan. Plan A is to find a nice pretty girl, get married, have children and live
happily ever after. But if that fails I'm gonna resort to plan B. And that's to rob a armoured car, get the money and BUY me
the good life! Including (many) long legged blond girls.
You should know you always need a back up plan :)
And you don't have to tell me anything about the dangers and risks involved, even posting this question in this Forum is a
risk, I know. Sure this site is monitored by certain government agencies (they probably even join this Forum. Hello guys :) ),
and sure it could lead to an investigation or serve as proof. I know exactly how the police works. Knowing your enemy is rule
number one.
And Dr Strangelove, just the last couple of months there where at least 3 armoured car heist where the used explosives to
blast their way into the car and get away with the money (2 in Belgium and 1 in Holland). And the example of the guard losing
his job shows two things: first, you should know your enemy: you need as much information as possible about the transport,
procedures etc. Secondly: there will always be suprises (guards that don't follow procedures :) ).
And Stanfield, the doors are the the must secure (and thickest) spot of such a car. A door is never 2mm thick. It got locks,
hinges, frames or even 1" security glass in it. So how is it gonna be 2mm thick? Please explain.
And that's exactly why I asked for the thickness of the sides and top: the places on the vehicle where there's only a sheet of
steel between you and the loads of cash.
And just for your information: did you know that lately I tested several charges on security glass and 4mm steel? Didn't think
so. So don't judge a guy by his first post! I sure as hell take my back up plan serious.
[ June 22, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: McCoy ]
PYRO500 June 22nd, 2002, 02:23 PM

and your evidence of these tests? pictures movies? mesurable scientific data? I see none of that.
pyromaniac_guy June 22nd, 2002, 04:17 PM

why would you even consider goin in through the top??? bringing a step ladder with you to get up there, and hefting cash
through the hole isnt exactly what you want to do ni a quick in, quick out situation.... experiment with proper linear shape
charges with the apropriate standoff... a shape charge to go through an inch of steel is not going to weigh very much per linear
foot.... a copper lined shape charge with RDX as the explosive will only have an explosive content of 71 grams per foot if you
want to cut through 1 inch of steel....
zaibatsu June 22nd, 2002, 04:20 PM

I'm guessing that he wants to go through the top because its most likely that like a tank, an armoured trucks armour is
thinnest on top.
10fingers June 22nd, 2002, 04:27 PM

I've got an idea for you. Get a friggin job! If most criminals spent a fraction of the time they're going to spend in jail thinking
of legitimate ways to make a living instead of some scam they would have it made.
stanfield June 22nd, 2002, 05:43 PM

A corse said to me that the Brink's door was 2 mm of steel...
Corse are terrorist but not lyer :)
see ya !
drstrangelove June 22nd, 2002, 08:55 PM

How did you hear about those robberies? The newspaper? If so which ones and do you have a link?
Were the guards injured by the blasts?
Were they done in daylight?
What was the M.O
All I can say is there are to many "ifs" when using explosives.
use to much people may get killed accidently or wounded the money destroyed or maybe not get in at all, plus all the property
damage smashed windows ect.
But as soon as the guards are out of that van there sitting ducks.
Ive never heard off anyone using explosives in this country and there have been hundreds of robberies.
But if you think you can-go for it.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2002, 09:49 AM

Why bother blasting the door if the truck can drive away?
The true master paralyzes his opponents, leaving them vulnerable to attack.
Use an LSC to fracture the drive train or axles. Or shove them under the tires like wheel chokes and blow them. Or an EFP to
shatter the engine block. Then it's immobile and can be opened at your (very quick) leisure.
A very small shaped charge is used to punch a hole in the armor through which ammonia gas is pumped in to flush the guards
out. They either flee the truck or die. Simple and quick.
RTPB: "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
McCoy June 23rd, 2002, 01:52 PM

10fingers you're right. And if I can find a girl that loves me, I'm even willing to get one of those friggin' lousy jobs that pays
crap and reduces you to a slave. That's plan A. But if not, I'm not going to work a shitty job and at the end of the month pay
all the money to the landlord and making the owner of the factory rich. I'm not gonna be a slave and letting people getting
rich over my back! Then I'm just gonna take my share.
And go to <a href="http://www.omroep.nl/avro/opsporing" target="_blank">http://www.omroep.nl/avro/opsporing</a> and see
how it's done (click on 'archief', then click on 'april 2002' and then on 'Haarlemmerliede', learn Dutch and read it): two cars to
immobilise the truck. One explosive charge to blow a hole in the side (not the door of course Stanfield). Take out the money.
Get in the getaway car. And drive off. No one injured (just a bit scared).
They could improve their heist by using LSC's instead of one big charge to reduce the amount of explosive and subsequent
dangers (just contact me guys :) ). But overall it was a perfect heist. Probably not their first one (they probably started all off
as petty thiefs stealing bikes :) ).
So the only problem is to find people capable, willing and trustworthy enough to carry it out. Then plan B is easy. Anyone?
[ June 23, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]
stanfield June 23rd, 2002, 04:26 PM

hehehe, I'm always ready for increasing my adrenaline but have you got some Kalashkikov, bullet proof clothes,
ammunition,... all these things who are impossible to get, you understand ?
see ya ! (in jail :) )
Arkangel June 23rd, 2002, 04:26 PM

Stanfield, by "A Corse", do you mean someone from Corsica? It has to be said that they should have a pretty good idea what
they are doing there, since they have been blowing stuff up and shooting people (mainly each other) for many years <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
Having said that, a standard car has pretty much 2mm steel in most places, do you really think that's all there is, would it
even be self supporting/single skinned? :confused: Not much of an armoured car, you could open it with a can opener, or a
gas axe in seconds.
However, I am of the opinion that this is another poxy thread, please don't let's have it continue much longer. Anybody
seriously considering a job on a truck like this, would be a fucking idiot to use a forum like this for serious planning. Just how
many clues do you want to leave? Just how much would you trust the information you get from here? Remembering of course
that your success and freedom would be resting on information you get from people you've never met before, and most of
whom have probably never seen the technical specs on a Brinks or other truck. And I'll tell you something else, if I HAD got
that sort of information, and was a criminal, I sure as shit wouldn't give it to you McCoy :rolleyes: . I would be far more likely
to give you loads of shit information, as I have no interest WHATSOEVER in you being successful in the job. For every
successful job that happened using MY information, MY techniques, I would be that much closer to having my collar felt. It IS
in my interests for twats like you to be put away for fucking things up - keeping the cops busy and distracting them from
felons who know what they are doing. (Not me) :p
stanfield June 23rd, 2002, 05:59 PM

Yes, a guy from Corsica... We are shooting in the same sport club. hehehe, he's an old man, it's funny, isn't it ?
drstrangelove June 23rd, 2002, 08:21 PM

Arkangel-chill the fuck out.
Its seen if anyone but NBK brings up a crime topic they are treated like shit.
Dont you know explosive manufacture is just a much a crime as robbery so get off your high horse.
There is nothing wrong with seeking knowledge in armoured cars.
"I would give shit information"that is just absurd.What if members started doing that with explosive preparations.
It takes a lot more stomach to do a robbery that sit at home making loud noises.
Good luck to anyone who does anything and gets away with it.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2002, 09:09 PM

The reason most crime posts here are criticized is because the person posting has no idea what crime is. There's a difference
between what you see on TV and the movies, and what's it's like on the streets and in the prisons.
Theory is one thing, doing is another. Having been there and done that, I'm in no big hurry to go back anytime soon for
anything less than a major score. RTPB: PETTY
And when I hear people talking so casually about something so serious, it reminds me of a lot of the idiots I see on the
streets who get into deep shit that they can't handle. People are better off not getting involved in things they're not ready for
but, of course, they don't realize this fact until Tyrone has all 10 inches up their ass in the prison cell they'll be calling home
for the next 20 years.
drstrangelove June 23rd, 2002, 10:11 PM

:D :D :D
True.
If you were serious, truly serious you would not talk about it here or anywhere else, its your secret to the grave.
Arkangel June 23rd, 2002, 11:22 PM

Dr Strangelove, my elder brother is an amazing engineer, and built his own race cars (among many other things). I learnt
something from him when I watched him putting the roll cage and safety stuff into one, as he was so unbelieveably thorough.
I asked him why, when most people would have made do with half the job. He told me "I make the assumption that I am
GOING to hit a tree at 100mph, and I am GOING to need every little bit of help I can get when that time comes".
In matters of life and death, he took no stupid risks at all.
You do a job on an armoured car like this and get caught, and your life (as you knew it) is effectively over. Same deal, take
no stupid risks or you'll regret it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . The same does not apply to
manufacture of explosives for recreation, given that it is still illegal, you might get banged up, but not for life. (and I'm not
talking about manufacturing risks, safety there is a given)
I don't sit at home making loud noises, but if I think a thread is bullshit, I'm definitely not going to bite my tongue about it.
Of all the crime related topics I've read on the forum (and I read most stuff that comes up), the majority of them ARE written
in this way, by people who are probably never ever going to turn a van over or anything remotely as bold. I don't doubt that it
takes guts (and a number of other qualities) to do a robbery. Nor do I doubt that it takes planning and preparation, but you
miss my point.
If I were a criminal that had robbed security trucks, I wouldn't be explaining how I did it to all and sundry. I might do it if you
were family, or a close friend, or a cell mate, but I would NOT do it to someone on the internet. What if they are a cop,
security firm wanting to close loopholes, other villain operating on the same turf. None of these things you would know, and
you would be a fool to share the info, as it would bring you that fraction closer to getting caught. Similarly, McCoy would be a
fool to trust the information he reads here, as it's in nobody that matters interests to give him any clues. And if you can't see
the difference between that and sharing information about HME's then YOU shouldn't bother with crime either.
The main reason I object to this and the type of post that Wicked used to produce is that the "Gangsta" attitude makes me
wanna vomit - kids acting like tough guys - SPARE ME!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
Stanfield, could you mail me please, I can't find an email address on your site
[ June 23, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
Rat Bastard June 24th, 2002, 09:12 PM

I was just wondering, I heard that the bullet proof winshield on armoured cars is one way; meaning you can't shoot them, but
they can return fire from behind it . How do they make one-way bulletproof glass?
nbk2000 June 24th, 2002, 10:53 PM

The shoot-through glass is made by an israeli company. It's intended for VIP vehicle armoring, not armored cars. The
armored cars are told to drive away, not stand and fight.
As for how it's made, the company is naturally tight lipped about such details.
Nick B June 25th, 2002, 01:04 AM

Well i believe those armored-cars do not just use plane steel. I believe they use Abrasion resistant steel or AR-10?,
something like that for short?, its some good stuff! This stuff can take a beeting though, its what they use on high power-rifle
targets. Don't kill me if im wrong though!
McCoy June 25th, 2002, 03:46 PM

Arkangel is right most of the time.
If you want to do a robbery like that, you don't talk about it.
If you DID a robbery like that, you also sure as hell don't talk about it.
And if you have valuable information necessary to commit such a robbery you don't give it away for free to the first fool that
comes along.
And certainly you don't find trustworhty partners in crime on the internet or on this Forum (yes it IS monitored, yes cops do join
this Forum). Partners of crime meet each other elsewhere: in jail. Inprisoned for petty crimes they meet and make bigger
plans (OK man no more stealing bikes for me man, when I'm out man I'm gonna steal a car. Yeah man! count me in. :) ).
BUT the internet is a place where you can find information. This Forum also. Valuable information is another thing but
sometimes something valuable comes up (I know you can't be sure about it and many times it's bullshit but I can tell the
difference :) ). And I never said I definitely gonna rob an armoured car. I'm just trying to find some information (and I'm not
willing to get my information in jail, although it's most definitely the best place for it :) ). There's nothing wrong or illegal with
asking. In this case I just want to know the thickness of the steel of such armored cars.
Judging from the pictures in the newspaper and on tv, the way the metal was bended and blown away by the blast I would say
it would be 3-4mm of normal steel. But I just want to be sure. So just an answer to the question please and no discussion if
I'm gonna do it or not.
Oh and I tried to make the impression of a kid acting and talking tough, on purpose Arkangel. Just to make sure to keep a
low profile. Because in real life I am this real big criminal and of course no one must find out :) .
[ June 25, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]
ShadowAlchemist December 25th, 2003, 08:21 AM

McCoy you have either got to be incredibly clever or incredibly fucking stupid to consider pulling off a job as complicated as an
armoured car. My guess is leaning in the direction of fucking stupid seeing as you are discussing your plans on a public forum!
Patience, Patience, Patience...Loose lips, sink ships! Spend 5 years researching and tell no-one for christs sake...take all the
time you need, coz when your a member of club fed serving a life sentence, youll regret being so irresponsible.
Ill be honest with you okay, i knew a guy once and he was a serious and experienced crook..he'd done everything from fraud
to murder and guess what...he decied to rob an armoured car!!
Well Robbo almost got away with it, the fool nearly came through with the goods...but then a guard shot him in the face with a
.357 magnum....End of story!
Dont be a dickhead, i think your due for a career change any time now.
Mitch

ShadowAlchemist (Mitch?),
surely this can't happen in Aus now, since they banned pistols? Or is there an exemption for security guards? If so, it is
suprising that there is a "Western" "democracy" that still allows people to defend themselves like that. (The US is not a
democracy, it is a republic!)
ShadowAlchemist January 4th, 2004, 09:37 PM

Jacks Complete, what led you to believe that pistols were banned in australia?
Auto's have been banned since the 70's, semis were restricted many years ago after some geek shot 35 people and now
pistols are being 'restricted'.
Just recently all semi-auto pistols with barrel length under 14cm were banned as well as pistols over .40cal. Fucking ridiculous!!
Semi rifles, pistols and autoloading shotties can still be obtained only if you have a class H licence. eg Professional
purposes..cops, armed guards etc.
I myself have setup a business which 'says' i professionally exterminate wild pigs and pests etc,
Which means i have now obtained my class D&H firearm licence....mwuhahaha
It also means i now own several semi-auto centrefire rfles, selfloading shotguns and many many semi pistols.Every democracy
has its loopholes :)
In theory, if insured guns are stolen, then they are written off with a half-ass investigation and a nice big insurance cheque.
What a pity ;)
P.S In australia we can claim self defence as long as we dont apply deadlier force than what was originally applied to us. EG If
someone tries to stab you and you stab him back in heat of moment..self defence! If same thing happens and you shoot
him...your fucked!
Blackhawk January 4th, 2004, 09:42 PM

Security guards of armoured vehicles do carry guns here, although people are currently moaning about that because they are
more often being robbed for their hand guns than their money ;D Still they really are for show, they are specifically told not to
use them, probably because the company insurance dosn't cover them. A little while ago the gov plugged a lot of private
security guards into the train system to try and lower the train crime, it was soon clear though that they were not legaly allowed
to do anything if they see a crime in progress except 'observe and report' so you could be torturing a person to death in a
carrige and all they would be told to do is write it all down, really usefull that was.
streety January 5th, 2004, 09:33 AM

I think, if I remember correctly, that the shoot through glass is actually two pieces of glass in contact. A hard piece of glass on
the outside and a softer piece on the inside. A bullet from outside hits the tough glass and the inside sheet of glass supports
it preventing penetration. If someone inside the car shoots outwards the bullet can easily penetrate the softer glass and then
without its support the harder glass is also penetrated. I don't know what sort of glass/polycarbonate/whatever is used but I
think that is the general principle.
I don't know what it is like in other countries but here in the UK one of the principle operators of armoured trucks is a company
called securicor. Their vans have an emergency exit in the roof that can be opened from outside (at least that is what it says
in fairly large writing on this exit). I guess this is in case the van is attacked the guards can get out if say a fire starts or gas is
used. There is probably an override inside the truck so the guards can stop attackers getting in that way but a combination of
gas and this exit might be very successful.
It's still not a great target and I would imagine far more money could be made with far less risk elsewhere. They expect you to
attack these trucks which is why they are armoured, you need to make your attack where they don't expect it.

streety,
I decided to start a new thread on the one-way glass. You can find it here: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=3572
Actually, there is a thread here http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3168 as Rhadon pointed out to

me, but it is in the water cooler for some reason.
Perhaps one of the mods could merge the stuff in this thread and my thread into 3168, and move it to a better section?
It is definately a topic for some playing with.
streety January 5th, 2004, 09:24 PM

Well your thread is now locked but at least we have some more info now. Acrylic and polycarbonate, with the acrylic being the
outer hard layer and polycarbonate being the inner softer and more flexible layer.
The glue would probably be the post important part but if one could be found that could live up to the job then producing a flat
piece of this shouldn't be too difficult. Producing shaped pieces of glass would be where things got difficult.
(As regards the other thread I think I probably also heard about this on Tomorrows World -great program- but I was curious
why you are now without a TV? Possibly moved away to uni? Or just got bored of paying for rubbish?)
Whitey January 6th, 2004, 01:40 AM

I think the whole idea of robbing an armored car would be stupid, as soon as anything happens you can bet the guards inside
will be radioing to the police, thus cutting your time for following your plan and escaping.
But if I were going to try something like that I would create an obstacle in the road (staged car accident for example) that they
can't go around. Then come out with a deactivated anti tank weapon (Like the deactivated M72 LAWs rockets for sale at
someplaces) and instruct them to open the doors or they get a 66mm HEAT warhead. If they don't believe your threat of force
then cut your losses and follow your evac plan. It works on the same principal as a some scumbag ripping off a convience
store clerk with a realistic imitation of a firearm. You assume that the victim will not want to bet that whatever your holding isn't
real or that you wouldn't really use it.

streety,
I don't have time nor inclination for TV... I have this forum instead! :)
Most of the TV is rubbish. Yes, there is some good stuff, but the license fee just funds the government brainwashing
monopoly which is the BBC.
I might get one in a few years, when I have a Tivo, widescreen TV or projector, Sky, and surround sound box. But then only
cos it is a hassle paying 1000 in a fine. There again, broadband that was ten times faster, and I would be able to watch
streaming TV.
As for the glass thread, I have shifted my post into the water-cooler thread, and asked that mine be gone, and the water
cooler thread be moved to Improved Weapons or the like.
As for the original post, I think we know how dumb that was. I do like Whitey's idea though, of bluff them.
Having said that, an armoured car heist is really dumb if you have no idea what is in it. Do it at the wrong time, and they won't
have any money, or they will have ordered bills from the Bank of England, which would be worthless as the serials are known,
etc.
5-15 years for the 6000 that you would get from the average bank job just isn't worth it. (I believe that is the average take
from a UK armed robbery)
streety January 7th, 2004, 08:23 PM

6000? That is low, you could probably get more than that by robbing a supermarket or another large shop. 30 tills, each
containing probably on average 300. Thats 9k there and then theres the money in the cash office out of sight. Crowd control
would be a problem though!
The only problem using fake weapons is that if caught you get just as long in jail and loose the option of defending yourself.
Having said that though, I can't see myself killing anyone for a mere 6k.
The bbc isn't all that bad. For a national TV institution it is actually quite good. It is though not exactly fair that only the BBC
receives the licence fee.
I've recently got broadband and have started watching the news feeds on the BBC website. The resolution is surprisingly good.
Voyager January 8th, 2004, 08:04 PM

People in the United States rob armored cars all of the time without any of this fancy equipment. The robbers just wait until
one of the guards has the door open and then they rush him.
One downside is that the guards in the U.S. will shoot you.
Another downside is that the heists tend to net only a few hundred thousand dollars.
Split amongst (minimum 3) people required to rob an armored car, you mights as well just get a day job.
Compare that with the single person who robbed the Berkshire Armored Car Service *Office* two years ago and left with $2M.
Before you commit any crime for money -- read up on the FBI's crime statistics.

streety,
you could rob a supermarket, but how?
They have far too much space for you to even be heard at the other end! You use a sawn-off, and you haven't even got a way
to threaten anyone ten yards away. Even a shotgun isn't going to do much at the 50yards found in a supermarket. How would
you stop the police being called on a stockroom phone, or someones mobile? Odds are, even if you timed it really well, you
would find at least one customer on a handsfree talking to someone, and what then? What about people in areas of the store
you can't ever go? You would need a small army. Plus, someone like me, if someone started yelling "Robbery!", would be sure
to leave via the nearest exit, which is a wired firedoor that trips the alarm when opened. I would take my shopping, too,
probably, but hey...
I think this is one of the reasons that most banks are now built on quite a large scale. It is too far to control with just one or
two people. The reason the haul is so low is because you just don't have time to get someone to open the vault and get the
real money, you only have time to grab what the cashiers have on them.
Don't get me wrong, if you could do it, you would get lots of money. But just remember "Pulp Fiction". You might not be the
only bad-ass buying twinkies.
DimmuJesus January 11th, 2004, 05:40 AM

As ridiculous as it is to compare movies to reality, a movie that gives an idea of how much is involved in robbing an armored
car is "Heat" with Pacino and Deniro. If you have these kinds of connections and resources in the real world however, you
should really do something that is low risk. Low risk and high payoff. Voyager mentioned reading the FBI crime statistics-this
really will open your eyes to how unsuccessful certain crimes are. There are more attempts on armored cars than you'd think,
and the vast majority are unsuccessful-leading to prison or death. Is any payoff really worth that risk? NBK2000's Tyrone is
more than just a joke, and is also the least of your worries in prison. (Not speaking from personal experience, but from many
I know who've been there) If you do some type of white-collar low risk crime, and get caught, you may be lucky enough to
land yourself in an adult daycare white-collar prison.
AsylumSeaker January 11th, 2004, 06:25 AM

Well its hard to answer questions like 'how to do an armoured car heist' without giving us information on your equipment or
experience etc. If it were me I would wait until I knew of an armour truck which had a route through a rural area or other low
population area, anywhere the cops would take longer to get too. How thick do you think the roof of the drivers compartment
is? This may sound odd.. but a proper folded steel katana can stab through 2mms of steel if you do it right and don't hit on
an angle or anything. (This is all gunna sound a bit far fetched but I'd do it.) You could drop onto the roof of the truck from an
over hanging branch as it stops at a corner or to remove a fallen (placed) log. Then you drive your katana through the ceiling
and impale the drivers skull, or you could just shoot through it if you had a gun which I don't (I'm going off the info that
Armour truck plating is 2mm which doesn' sound right to me but anyways) Then the other guard sitting in the passenger seat
according to all the movies i've seen can be dispatched in the same way (Provided your katana hasn't been blunted compltely
or snapped or is wedged into the metal). Then you have a armour car with driver and guard eliminated.. uh.. you take it from
there.
Also if you had a .50 like a barret or something you could yeah..
My mind really only can think of ways to kill people and not ways to effectivly break into the vehicle. This post is evidence of
way to many video games for me.

Provided your katana hasn't been blunted compltely or snapped or is wedged into the metal
That's why you'de be carrying at least two. But it is an extremely far fetched idea that has an extremely small (if any) chance
of working in real life, as soon as you landed on top of the van (assuming it does stop in position, unlikely) the gaurds are
going to pull out their guns. If you stab one of them through the cieling (almost impossible because he will be moving by now,
reaching for the door) then the other one will shoot through the cieling at you, you just can't miss with multiple shots at that
range, even if you can't see the target.
It is all way too much like something from Leone the Professional.
While I am here, I will make the point that perhaps the driver isn't the best place to attack, the tyres are also vulnerable (see
the stinger replacement thread), and there would also be other ways to go about it.
Ammonal January 12th, 2004, 05:57 AM

Might be a tad overkill but by the sounds of it some 28yo person is australia has figured out a pretty darn good way of taking
a car apart... ;)
But explosives arent really the best way to go unless you could be super organised (not that hard only a little surveilance and
some planning) place some of the black tire spikes like I posted in the Improvised Road spikes thread, truck stops, the
people inside have 2 choices; call for backup and wait inside the truck or venture outside. Once you have the gaurds where
you want them the takedown of the truck should be a simple operation. Oh and around here they only work through the
daylight hours although, some of them move around at night;
Conclusion: surveilance, surveilance, surveilance.
ibuprofen January 12th, 2004, 06:29 PM

The trucks undoubtedly have run-flat tires or are under orders to attempt to flee even with punctured tires. However, check out
"replacement for stinger" thread and/or this link:
http://www.qinetiq.com/markets/automotive/markets1.SupportingInformation.0001.document.pdf
I think the best way to stop one would be by confusion: make a convincing situation in their path that they would have to stop
for, e.g. an accident in the road blocking it off etc., then block off their escapes and hit them hard. I don't think it would be
worth the risk, however, especially considering the number of people necessary for such a job. Lots of mouths involved for a
reward that might divide up meagerly.
daysleeper January 19th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Read the book, The Silent Brotherhood"Inside America's Racist Underground. This is the real lie account of a group called The
Order back in the 80's that robbed several armed cars, and were only brought down by a rat, they used some very creative and
simple ways , do a search find the book, then contemplate your own plan.
nbk2000 May 1st, 2004, 05:02 PM

Here's an interesting trick that someone is pulling.
http://www.emergency.com/ofcrwarn.htm
If only they were more technically proficient, there'd have been baco'bits all over the place. :D
And this is why you need to learn how to properly cache your loot. It almost made me cry, reading this one. :(
http://www.roundupnews.com/news/2003/10/23/News/Rotting.1.5.Million.From.1995.Armored.Car.Heist.Fo und-536813.shtml
And let's not leave out the venerable ATM.
http://www.atmmarketplace.com/marketplace_showcase.htm

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > "Modern Metsubushi"
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Tyler_Durden June 20th, 2002, 05:50 PM

I stumbled upon this as I was "surfing the net".
<a href="http://www.drearic.com/modernmetsubushi.html" target="_blank">"Modern Metsubushi Concepts"</a>
It's a long read, and it kinda beats around the bush a bit, but it's worth a skim if nothing more.
Here is a synopsis: imparing peoples vision can be a very effective tool, by conventional or unconventional means. Anything from a flashbang to throwing a penny at
someone's face could be effective vision impairment, and would fall under the concept of "Metsubushi".
Anyway, I will get to the point...
He mentions the possibility of carrying a 35mm film canister in your pocket filled with salt/flour/pepper. It seems like it would be a very easy, simple, effective tool in self
defense, not to mention E+E, etc. Simply reach in your pocket, pop the lid off with your thumb, toss it in their generally direction.
Unlike pepper spray, it would be difficult to miss, and even if they tried to block it or turn their head, they probably would still be affected greatly, and you would definitely
have the advantage should you continue the confrontation by disabling the opponent with a knife, or simply punching/kicking/etc.
This idea of his seems good, so I naturally am trying to think of ways to improve it further.
It seems like ground up chili peppers, maybe even mixed with flour for both the irritant and vision impairment effects. I don't know how effective that would be, the irritant
part may have no effect in such a form.
Now is where the "explosives" part comes in...
What if you make an egg sized container with a hole at the top to insert a small firecracker (or maybe one of the psuedo-m80's on the market nowadays), then filled with flour
or some other powder, and sealed the top around the fuse with glue. Do you think this would be effective?
The whole thing would need to spread as much as possible, as evenly as possible, so I don't know if paper would allow this very well. I haven't thought the logistics of it out
much, but I am thinking along the lines of "smoke bomb--- but not really".
Smoke takes a little bit of time, even if it's only a few seconds, to take full effect.
Anyway, what do you all think? I will experiment a little later... right now I am just brainstorming.
Are these completely stupid ideas or do you think they have any merit at all?
[ June 20, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]
mongo blongo June 20th, 2002, 06:55 PM

If you really want to put someone on their ass then why don't you have a glass container containing something NASTY like HNO3? I remember something about a mix of
H2SO4 and H2O2 I think. There is a thread on it somewhere and apparently it's good for decomposing organic materials.
BoB- June 20th, 2002, 11:31 PM

Simply throwing the powder in someones face would require a bit of practice, a better method would be to load the area in a party popper that normally holds confetti with the
powder, this also adds noise to the equation, further startling the victim.
Salt, flour, and talcum powder are boring and dont really do much, not a single degree is needed to cause harm to a persons eyes/face, just reading a few labels at the grocery
store should give you loads of ideas. Crystal drano, powdered bleach, HTH, other crystal pool chlorinators, habenaro peppers, cayanne peppers, whole nutmegs.
An old trick is to fill eggshells with the desired chemical agent, since they break no matter what they hit.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2002, 11:46 PM

You're thinking of "Pirahna" fluid. Look it up in the search engine. Dissolves flesh on contact. Also sets it on fire! :)
But this kinda defeats the purpose of a temporary diversion and is more of a permanent blinding.
Bitter June 21st, 2002, 09:48 AM

Can't beat concentrated ammonia. Impairs breathing as well.
Harry June 21st, 2002, 01:35 PM

Young women in Mexico are taught the trick of "chile pepper in the purse" for self-defense--pepperspray being unavailable to them. BTW, the word is spelled "chile", not "chili"
and pronounced "chee-lay". With all the crap they have to put up with, they need every help they can get. I'm sending some of these ideas down south pronto.
Thank you, my friends.

Quick Tip:
Aerosol cans of 'Oven Cleaner' are brilliant.
They have a 30% or so solution of NaOH, a long range spray, and foam on contact.
The NaOH obviously would be... rather unpleasant... and the foaming action slightly reduces the chances of it blowing back into ur face.
Wearing wrap-around sunglasses when ur using something like this is a good idea, and if the assailant is wearing glasses - dont worry. THis shit burns the mouth etc.. and
leaves permanent damage.
BTW: If the spray is a mist, then enlarge the hole with either a pin or small PCB drill bit.
These cans are like $5AU and are WAY more effective than any piss-ant OC spray.
Keep that in mind...

rob
Arkangel June 25th, 2002, 11:30 AM

Smoking elephant shit guys......
Far cheaper than that expensive oven cleaner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_2063000/2063445.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_2063000/

2063445.stm</a>
PYRO500 June 25th, 2002, 06:52 PM

I like the idea of ash myself, cheap light, super small particles, and irritating as hell.
pyromaniac_guy June 25th, 2002, 08:11 PM

you better watch it if you are going to rely on something that is caustic and or poisonous to incapacitate someone... I wish I kept the link to the law where I first noticed this
(almost positive i saw it on the batf website). but if you do use such a material against someone and jhonnie law catches you, you most likely will get poped for the use of a
chemical weapon... the feds dont distinguish between vx and NaOH... If you are going to carry a weapon, you should do so with the intent to use it if need be. Furthermore
ytou should take into consideration the reprocussion of getting poped with it from the cops... I doubt there would be that much trouble if a cop simply found it on your person
(unless they were smart and realized why you had it), but again, if and when you ahve to use it, you might as well just have a gun and kill the SOB thats fucking with you. At
least you have a chance of being on the good saide of the law that way.... provided you live in the US at least.... even better if you live in texas... someone steals from you
there, you hunt um down and shoot um int he back, you have a half way decent chance of getting away with it!
MrSamosa June 26th, 2002, 01:55 AM

If you need something irritating, why not use CS Tear Gas? It's sold as a pepper spray, if you do not know already. I have a cylindar of it under the name "Military Tear Gas".
There is a dye mixed in as well for the purpose of Police identification of a suspect, but it is mostly CS. Simply spray it into the desired container and put a small explosive
(maybe a blasting cap) into it with a fuse leading out the top. Of course, you would have to seal the fuse-hole somehow so the CS does not evaporate out of said container.
This would be very easy because on detonation, it immediately aerosolizes the CS.
Now that I think about it, this probably would not be a good self-defense weapon. I doubt film canisters would be able to hold enough CS to truly be effective and large
containers could become bulky and difficult to carry. Also, having to light a fuse, wait, and throw at the attacker takes far too much time to be effective. Maybe as an offensive
weapon though... :rolleyes:
Tyler_Durden June 26th, 2002, 03:40 AM

Mr sam... way to miss the point of the thread completely!
First, this section is "Improvised Weapons". There is nothing "improvised" about buying CS Spray at your local military surplus shop.
Explosives defies the point of a simple, quick, easy, safe, distraction in order to give you a chance to run away or disable the opponent.
"aerosolizes the cs" .... :rolleyes:
pyro guy: what are they going to charge you with if they find a 35mm film canister full of salt/flour/ash/chile pepper? They might hassle you a bit, thinking it's drugs, but
nothing serious? Surely you can think of a satisfactory excuse for all of these substances. "I was taking it to my friend to flavor the chicken he was cooking (chile pepper", or
"my friend ran out of salt/flour and wanted some". I can't think of one off hand for ash, but I'm sure you could think of an excuse for carrying some in your pocket if you tried.
Of course, my whole "m80 surrounded by flour" thing wouldn't workt like this, but it's not something you would carry around in your pocket every day ( I assume ? ).
pyromaniac_guy June 26th, 2002, 04:37 AM

tyler,
I was mainly tlaking about the people how suggested NaOH, nitric, and the like....
In all honesty, the oven cleaner might be the best bet... it's a common household product, and you can come up with some excuse for having it on your person... you could
also say 'hey i was in fear for my life and defending myself' when the cops ask you why you hosed some bastard down... However if you carry a jug of nitric around with you,
your intent to cause bodily harm via the use of a caustic is quite obvious... you might still be defending yourself, but it could potentially get you into hot water...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now is where the "explosives"
part comes in...
What if you make an egg sized container with a hole at the top to insert a small firecracker (or maybe one of the psuedo-m80's on the market nowadays), then filled with flour
or some other powder, and sealed the top around the fuse with glue. <hr /></blockquote>Don't bitch at me for
something YOU brought up :mad: .
There are some really vicious hot-sauces that can do a number on your skin and mucous linings... That's "improvised" enough and thinking up an excuse for carrying hot-sauce
is pretty easy. If you want to use an explosive still, you could even put it into a small container of Hot Sauce.
There's a pepper called "Bird Peppers". The name may vary from place to place. They are like chile peppers, only smaller and much hotter. You could cut those open and use
the seeds in those.. Having some moisture in them, they would probably stick to the attacker's face.
Of course, there is still Cayenne pepper. It takes out the eyes and the sense of smell.

"But six local activists will be soon trained to shoot smoking dung pellets at the elephants, with weapons developed in neighbouring Zimbabwe. "
BWAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Hmm... I want that job :D

I think shooting flaming elephant shit from a spudgun would be QUITE the entertaining job. No, seriously :rolleyes:

Haha, the idea of smoking elephant dung is quite funny, but interesting at the same time. Elephant dung, from what I know, consists mainly of grass, right? There are plenty of
other animals with dung like that; cows come to mind. Why not go to a local farm and steal some cow shit (if you're caught, they probably won't know what to think). If we
know what's so special about elephant dung, then we can figure out what other animals have similar dung and are easier to find.
Machiavelli June 27th, 2002, 09:07 AM

Dried elephant/cow/other grass eating animal-dung burns rather slow, it smolders, creating sufficient heat to vaporize the OC in the chilli peppers. So you get OC vapors and
OC absorbed on fine ash particles, kinda like dusty agents.
To reproduce that, you'll need a slow burning mixture that doesn't get too hot and mix it with some chilli powder.

A slow-b urning/not-too-hot mixture... Whatabout mixing the chile powder in with the wax in candles? So when you light the candle, it slowly melts and releases the vaporized
OC? Candles don't look very threatening either. Somehow I get the feeling this won't work as I'm expecting it to. It's an idea to work off of though, right?
auzquad July 21st, 2002, 11:30 AM

learn to spell
[ July 22, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]
Tyler_Durden July 21st, 2002, 05:06 PM
auzquad, let me introduce you to my friend, the period:
Anthony July 21st, 2002, 08:58 PM

Seriously, take a look at the quality of English used by some of our members from non-English speaking countries.
Rather than playing with shit, which I'm sure is a lot of fun... wouldn't it a lot simpler to just use salt/flower?
The vortex idea most probably won't work, if it does, the distance covered will be minimal. If the film can is full of dried shit/salt/flower/whatever, where's the air needed to
propell it?
Also, you're going to need a lid on the other end to stop the contents falling out in transit and you're going to need to remove the lid by hand before you can use it, so you
might as well just pull the lid off and then throw the contents.
angelo July 22nd, 2002, 03:34 AM

do people not understand? Getting anything in ones eyes is irritating.
And auzquad, I suggest you go back and edit that post.
Tyler_Durden July 22nd, 2002, 05:25 AM

Angelo... have you ever had water splashed on your face? It probably didn't bother you too much.
What about CS spray? Ever had that in, around, or on your eyes and face?
It's a hell of a lot more painful and irritating, regardless of HOW MUCH and IF it gets in your eyes.
Anything is at least a little bit irritating in your eyes, but some things are more so than others, and some things require less to actually get INTO the eyes for the desired effect.
Also, it just occured to me....
What's wrong with using chili pepper as you would flour or salt in the film canister? You can buy chili pepper like any other spice, and its finely ground, and at roughly $2 per
container full(1" diameter 3" tall container, roughly), very economical.
Though it would be less of a visual hinderance than flour, it would be more irritaing (I would imagine) than both.
Not to mention the ke\/\/l trick of using chili pepper mixed with water, shot from a water pistol or spray bottle. Of course, if you are going this route you might as well use
tobasco sauce or something like that that's already in a liquid form.
Harry July 22nd, 2002, 11:30 AM

On chile peppers and heat:
The seeds are where the OC is found in high concentrations. Carefully (extra stress on carefully) grind seeds taken from dried pods (several groceries here in Murderapolis carry
dried pods, as well as every "Tienda Mexico"), "cola de rata" (rat's tail) are potent, habanero are extreme. Add heat to the seeds to release some serious fumes. My woman
fries chile pods, and the fumes get into EVERYTHING--my computer smells spicy inside! Alcohol will extract the OC oil from the seeds, if you want concentrate. Or mix the
ground seeds into candle wax, you'll want a high ratio of seeds to wax to get good effect.
Harry
P.S.The proper spelling is "chile", not "chili". Pronounced "chee-lay".
W_S July 22nd, 2002, 01:32 PM

Well, even just soaking the pod (torn up) and the seeds of a habanero in a little bit of water pulls alot of capsacium makeing the water tinted reddish/orange. I poured this
over over a 50/50 mix of flour and plaster of paris and am letting it dry now. In theorey, when the water evaporates, it leaves the capsacium in the flour/plaster mix. I know
wet flour dosn't like to be ground up too much so thats what the plaster is for. When it dries, i wil test it and post results.
[edit] typo
[ July 22, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: W_S ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Strange idea
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Xtramad June 23rd, 2002, 07:02 AM

I have two big bags of thermite which a workcrew on the railroad forgot to take with them after they'd been welding some tracks.
I've had them for years but I've never really had any use for it until I got this strange idea some weeks ago.
If you buried a large diameter carboard tube in the ground and filled the bottom of it with black powder or some other low explosive then filled the remainder of the tube with
thermite and ignited the thermite it might make a very interesting sight as the melted down to the explosive. I havn't had any sucess with lighting thermite, is there any other
way than magnesium strips which will work, I have magnesium alloy sheets but when I try to hammer it flat it just cracks.
Anyone want to try this or give me advice on how to light it?
Any high temperature combustible that will work maybe?
DarkAngel June 23rd, 2002, 07:24 AM

If you do what you described above nothing special will happend.
You could have find it by using the search engine.
Anyway Thermite can be ignited with blackpowder if the partical size is small enough but a mix of KNO3/AL/Suger will definitely ignite your thermite.
[ June 23, 2002, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]

Nothing special you say?
A pool of molten iron coming in contact with a confined charge of black powder would be interesting to see.
Would make great fountain of sparks but could probably not be used for anything useful.
SATANIC June 23rd, 2002, 09:34 AM

you say you are going to light the thermite first?
that would (when the blackpowder ignited) propel a large lump of molten iron into the air. while spectacular, i see no practical use for it. possibly try it anyway, as a
pyrotechnical delight. keep in mind that if you get any molten iron on you, you'll know about it.
to light the thermite, just use a sparkler, or a wind / waterproof match (with the long heads) they burn plenty hot enough to ignite good thermite (which yours should be if it is
commercial stuff. )
mongo blongo June 23rd, 2002, 12:19 PM

I use crushed up sparkler powder with added Mg powder. I then cast it using acetone into cilinder shaped blocks. I then use match heads dissolved in water to put an "easy to
light" blob on top of the blocks. These never fail to start the reaction. I'm still having problems to make the thermite burn completely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]"
src="frown.gif" />
Xtramad June 23rd, 2002, 12:34 PM

The chemicals I have at hand are saltpeter, smokeless powder, magnesium, aluminium, titanium and titanium hydride.
Any recipes come to mind that will produce high enough temperatures?
mongo blongo June 23rd, 2002, 12:57 PM

Have a go at mixing your smokeless powder with your magnesium. Dissolve the SP in acetone and then mix in the Mg powder.
kvitekrist June 24th, 2002, 06:55 AM

I think sparklers wil do just fine! what about a redglowing pice of metall, would that ignite the thermite?
tell me more about those bags of thermite!
Xtramad June 27th, 2002, 05:05 AM

A red glowing peice of steel could probably do the trick but then I would need something to heat the steel like a oxy-acetylene flame which would in itself be enough.
The thermite is made by elektro thermit of Germany.
MacCleod June 27th, 2002, 05:33 AM

I always use strobes to ignite thermite (the kind used in the states to celebrate the 4th. of July).They work great,and cost next to nothing.
xoo1246 June 27th, 2002, 07:17 AM

This has been discussed a million times and every time I say:
Mix some aluminum in ordinary BP and there you have your starter.
kanbayat July 1st, 2002, 12:37 AM

comercial thermite igniter is a mix of 2 parts barium peroxide and 1 part magnesium powder by weight.
as mentioned above clorate/sugar will do it as will flare igniter. tear apart a flare and get the black stuff out(clorate and antimony trisulphide).. this can be helped along by
black powder if needed.
mix of P. permanganate,nitrate or sodium dichromate can be used to ignite it as well,but you need somthing to ignite those mixes.try using aluminum tubing for a thermite
incendery. simply seperate the igniter from the thermite with tissue paper and seal the ends with water putty(durhams rockhard)..these make pretty spectacular thermite fire
bombs ..especially if thrown in water after lighting the fuse. youre simply making a device that looks like a fat firecraker with a fuse in it..impressive ..indeed.
Harry July 2nd, 2002, 12:16 PM

Not much for history, are we?
You're replicating the failed demonstration of Bessemer's steel process--hooked a blast furnace airpipe to the bottom of a steel melting crucible (several tons of molten steel),
and blew air through. Oops, no one told the workmen to provide a slow airflow; the blast of air sent the whole load into the night sky, giving a spectacular fireworks show.
So, I concur with those who say you project will result in a pretty display, and little else.
Harry
Xtramad July 9th, 2002, 07:46 PM

Thanks for all the replies and suguestions, I'll get around to testing this idea soon.
I'm still busy designing and constructing submachine guns and hope to be finished soon with some DIY e-books on the topic. I have noticed that much of my postings on that
subject have been lost, I'll update you all when I've made some more progress.

My thermite igniter is so simple it is funny, and they are ever legal to carry, road flares. For a quick and dirty igniter cut the top 2 inches off the top. Strontium nitrate is the
base, and burns very hot. If that does not work try liquid oxygen, it will burn anything.
kingspaz August 8th, 2002, 08:25 AM

and how many people have tanks of liquid O2 lying around? use your brain.
zaibatsu August 8th, 2002, 02:24 PM

A welder would Kingspaz
a_bab August 8th, 2002, 03:36 PM

...BUT not liquid...
Energy84 August 8th, 2002, 03:37 PM

But by the time it gets out of the tank, it's a gas...
a_bab August 8th, 2002, 04:32 PM

Let's make this clear:
There are LOTS of gases which are stored in gaseous form under presures like 150 atm or even more, like O2, H2, N2. These gases cannot be liquified by the means of presure
because of theire critical temperature. This means that at a given critical temperature of lets say 20 degrees C, a gas cannot exist in liquid state over this temperature. If is
liquified under this temperature and exposed to a higher temperature it will simply boil causing the explosion of the tank.
The phisical state of the substances which are around us including chemical elements is simply given by the temperature and the presure on this planet. Playing with these will
cause the transition between these states. On Titan (a sattelite of the planet Saturn) there are nitrogen and methane oceans because of the very cold wheather <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
SO the oxygen stored in tanks is in a gaseous form even highly compressed. The liquified gases are some hidrocarbures (methane, ethane, ethene, etc), clorine (it liquifies at 6
atm), and others.
The liquid oxigen is very cold and is not used for welding !

Aww crap. You're right. I was thinking of propane. I handle 100lb propane tanks all the time and I can tell you that there is definately some liquid in there.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Self Defence
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Jhonbus June 24th, 2002, 12:21 AM

Not really sure this is the right section for this, but I've seen a lot of threads pertaining to the sorts of weapons which would be
used to fend off an attacker, so here is where I shall post it.
I just wanted to say that no matter how many weapons you have with you as you walk the streets, and no matter how good
they are, you always have to be ready to use them. I had an experience tonight which showed me that I am not nearly as
prepared as I had thought.
I was walking to the shop to get some munchies, when I happened across a group of youths (around the 15 year mark).
Usually I don't come across such things as I normally go out a lot later when the kiddie-gangstas have all gone to beddybyes.
Now meeting this group in itself is nothing unusual, and I usually find that passing such groups of kids is hazard-free, as long
as you radiate an air of self-confidence.
Today though, one kid approached me, asking me the time. Obviously he was about to attempt to rob me. He stood in front
of me, and asked me to give him my cellphone, which I did not do, I said I didn't have it with me. He then moved round to
my side and asked for my wallet. I thought he may have a knife, so I began to comply, running through ideas of what to do in
my head. When my hand was at my back pocket, I realised that he was in the perfect position for me to swing round my elbow
at great speed and hit him in the head with it. Then I would grab his arm and attempt to dislocate it, then break his nose as
punishment. However... There was the matter of his group of friends (about 10 or so). I did not know how far behind me they
were, and I knew if I was not fast enough I would have no chance to take them all on. This was the fact that made my mind
falter, and by the time I had come close to making a decision it was too late and I was out of the ideal position. His hand was
in his pocket (possibly reaching for a knife), and since I no longer had the advantage, I had to give him my wallet. Luckily I
only had 5 in it at the time, but as you can probably imagine, that fact does nothing to subdue my seething rage.
The problem I had was not the one of being able to overpower the attacker, but of making a decision in a stressful situation
with a very limited time frame. I'd like to hear anyone's opinions and any ideas they might have about how to overcome just
such problems. Martial arts training is of course the best option in *all* aspects of self-defence, but I'd like to limit the
discussion to just the probles I have mentioned.
Mick June 24th, 2002, 02:45 AM

interesting predicament.
i find when placed in a situation like that i often panic and freeze up, its only till about 5 seconds latter do i say to myself
"woah, slow up..breathe, slow the adrenaline up, now act"
when i'm placed in a situation like that, where i have 1 guy trying to jump me and 10 of his mates are waiting for him a little
way away, i will often just say to him this isn't gunna happen today, and just walk away(the opposite direction to his mates) if
he keeps following, saying "come on, give us your phone" then i keep walking a little bit faster, and try and go around a
corner.
the idea behind that is, chances are he's to chicken shit to start anything and will mostly like give up.
if he isn't chicken shit and does try to start something, then i have walked sufficently far enough away from his mates that i
can smack him fair and square on the end of the jaw(hurts your hand, but fuck its hurts him more, and if it doesn't pop his jaw
out, he'll be pretty stunned for a while) and then run like the wind before his mates see - if i'm around a corner, then i still
run.
the point of going round the corner is not so i can kick the absolute shit out of this guy, its so i have more time before his
mates see, theres no point being a hero and "teaching that guy a lesson" because A) he can go to the cops and say you
assaulted him - he's going to have 10 witnesses, you'll have none.
B) you won't win against 10 guys, so there no point temping fate. the moment you get the chance to run you take it.
another option, if you have a knife(which i very rarely carry, and i have only used once) you can always pull it on him.
i don't mean just pull it out and say "oh gee, i'll stab you cunt" - that silly, there still 3-4ft gap between you and him, which
gives him plenty of time to turn and run, shouting to his mates.
you pull it and wham! put the edge(even if its the back edge) straight to his chest, neck or face. getting in as close as
possible so your bodies are touching(go press up against a wall or door, then try and hit the door with any sort of reasonable
force...good luck =)
and say "you wouldn't want me to fuck this pretty face up would you? then back off cunt."
if he's gunna back off, you just back away till you get out of site, then run as fast as you fucking can.
if he doesn't want to back off, then your pretty fucked because no doubt his mates will have seen, so the only option you have
is cutting him up.
its easier just to avoid situations like this in the first place.
angelo June 24th, 2002, 04:22 AM

It seems I was not the only one that was unlucky the other night.
I was the city and was with my friend when I was confronted by a young asian, I guessed he was around 14-16 years of age.
Now I usually do not worry about it and either keep walking and forget about it. But my friend is from out bush, and he has
never been in this kind of situation. We were asked for our wallets and phones. My friend started to hand his over when I told
him to stop. The young mugger seemed abit shocked at this. I told him to forget about it and walk away or he would feel it
tomorrow.
He did not walk away, so I made sure he felt it. I broke his nose and reversed the knife he was holding. I cut him on his arm,
a small flesh wound but alot of blood poured out. Now I was preparing myself for the run and had a few locations in my mind
of where I could run and hide for a couple of hours. But when I turned there was a group of 3 young asians. I did not think
that they would have had anything to do with the person I had just hurt. So as I was walking past them my friend was walking
on the inside. He was stabbed in the arm. I was fucking angry at myself for not thinking they were working with the other
slant-eyed cunt. I fought them. All of them. I was in a fit of rage, I was supposed to take care of my mate, but I didn't do it. I
hurt them, and I hurt them bad. There was a lot of blood on my hands and if it was not for my mate, holding his wound
shouting at me I would have beat them to a bloody pulp. He dragged me away and we retreated to a public toilet were we
cleaned up and took the train home. I stiched my friend up. He is going to be fine. I got cut on my chest and got my brother
to give some stiches. Thank god for my ribcage.
After this incident I have seriously thought through what I would do in this situation if it would ever arise again.
there are a few things I would do.
When asked for my wallet I would yell at the top of my voice "FUCK OFF!" Thus attracting attention. If this did not work I would
have a good look around me to make sure who I was up against. Then counting the odds, I would either run, or fight.
Now I read a post "modern metsubishi" I liked the idea and now carry a small canister of salt mixed with pepper mixed with
baking soda. I have yet to use this on a person but have used it on cats in my area. They whine and go into spasms. So I am
guessing it would hurt like all hell. This would be what I would use if out numbered, kick as many of them in the balls, then
use this powder on the rest of them. And run like a somalian with a food voucher. I would then retreat into a toilet and wash
the solution off my hands.
This is what I say I would do, but murphy's law says its gonna go to rat shit.
Microtek June 24th, 2002, 06:13 AM

I know you didn't want martial arts, but this isn't about technique so I think it is relevant.
Several martial arts recognize the problem of indecisiveness in that crucial moment where you must either comply or refuse to
do so. Most of them solve this by repeating the training of the defence so many times that it becomes a reflexive action.
But this can cause some problems as you then run the risk of hurting someone who had a legitimate reason to approach you.
Other organisations, such as many armed forces use what they call "actions on". The idea is simply to remain aware of all
possible threats in your present situation and deciding ahead of time what to do about them if they should arise. For instance,
if you are walking along the street and someone is walking behind you, you would consider what to do if he were to pull a knife
and demand your money. Maybe you decided that you could use the shopping bag in your hand to make a wild swing behind
you and run - so you shift your grip on the bag to make it optimal for swinging.
The disadvantage of this approach is of course that you can seem quite paranoid to your surroundings.
nbk2000 June 24th, 2002, 12:30 PM

You have one gook in your hands, and see three others nearby and assume they're not his buds? :rolleyes:
You've got a knife and one of their (supposed) friends. Grab the punk by the collar from behind and stick the point of the
knife between his legs. Force him up on tippy toes with the point and make it abundantly clear that he'll have sit to piss if he
tries anything foolish because he's not going to be a man any longer if he does..
Keep him between you and his "buddies" as a shield. Keep your back to the wall (or fence, building, etc) with your partner
watching your rear till you're somewhere where you can ditch them.
If they rush you (they never liked the guy anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), keep him
between you and the nearest guy to block their weapons while you defend. See a chance, push him (after you've nuetered him
:D This removes one guy from the pursuit, maybe two) into them and run like the devil is on your heels.
When dealing with a crowd, you can't win without a gun or fear. Not your fear, but their fear. If you can't hope to outrun them,
take out the guy standing in front of you. Don't hit him, devour him. Rip his face apart with your teeth. Claw his throat out. Go
Hannibal Lecter on him. When the buddies come, charge THEM! They'll be seeing a fearless madman with the blood of their
friend pouring from his mouth attacking THEM. And they will run.
Once they turn, you turn too and run like crazy in the opposite direction.
Scream "FIRE!" at the top of your lungs. Fire gets people involved. Bust a shop window to set off an alarm. Pull a fire box
alarm. Get into a narrow place where they'd have to attack you one at a time like a stairwell or building alleyway.
Be offensive, not defensive. The attacker always has the initiative. Attack while they're talking. It'll take a moment for their
brain to change gears from thinking of what they're saying to defending against an unexpected attack.
As for distance, it's been shown time and again that a standing man with a knife within seven yards can stab a cop before he
can draw and fire his weapon. That's why cops always stand far away from someone if possibe, to have sufficient reaction time.
Try it with a buddy to see what I'm saying.
Obviously you weren't armed at the time. For shame. You're a mod of a weapons forum and you're caught unarmed by gook
punks. Tsk, tsk.
You guys need to learn H2H skills and practice with a friend. And start carrying something...anything! A stick, a handful of 1"
ball bearings, a pocket dragon, or something. RTPB: "Have a weapon on you at all time".
If you set the first punks hair on fire with a blast from a PD, as he's running around screaming with a flaming head, you're not
going to be hassled by the rest of them as you walk away. Always walk (if possible) because it shows you're in control and not
afraid. Running only invites pursuit. Only run if you're hopelessly outnumbered or fleeing imminent police capture.
Mick June 24th, 2002, 01:33 PM

you can not carry any form of weapon on your persons in australia.
police are allowed to search you and your imediate property(bag, car) for weapons or drugs should they see fit at the time.
ie. your waking down the street, cops walk up to you and say "we need to search you" you have 2 choices, be arrested and be
processed at the station - in which case your going to be searched before you go in your cell. or you let them feel you up on
the street.
if your caught carry anything be it a tooth brush, fork, a stick, a glass bottle(full or otherwise) etc etc it will be confiscated, and
you may very well get a fine of about $250.
if you conseal something(down your pants, socks, under your hat, in your shoe) then you will get a fine, and you could even
get to spend the night in jail.
you can't carry shit in australia.
angelo, you gotta watch the rock apes.

there fucked now, most of those slope head fuckers around city carry guns, and if they guy that tries to jump you doesn't have
a gun then you can absolutly garantee that atleast one of apes in his gang is carrying.
i remember when the rock apes would try to jump you with knives and stuff atleast then you had some sort of a fighting
chance...now they just walk up to you and say "gimme your stuff" and if you don't hand it over they pull out a gun and just
shoot you. no questions asked.
as NBK said, go hannibal lector on there ass.

when one of those rock apes try to jump you, get them by the neck and rip his nose of with your teeth, then rip his jaw off with
your other hand.
i'm not much for slope food, but i would much rather eat slope nose, then slope lead.

I live in the abosolute epicenter of suburban America, i don't have to be worried about getting jacked in my neighborhood.
Although i do pray for the day when i'm walking home, and some "kiddie wannabe gansta", tries to jump me, that will be quite
the display of firepower :) .
Although a short distance away from my house are some of the roughest areas in the country. When I go to these places I
always make sure I'm with one of my "gorilla friends". So if a serious altercation insued, i'd have some time to think i about
what to do while my "gorilla friend" instinctively battled to the death. Having some tough friends is pretty important. One time
I was at a local mall, (hangout spot for wannabe ganstas and other primitive walks of life, when one of my gorilla friends who
happens to be and expert in Jiu Jitsu gets his hat stolen away from him, by the older brother of some kids we were messing
wiht earlier. A crowd of this older brothers friends gathered, and we were outnumbered and they were definitely bigger and
older than us. My ju-jitsu friend calmly says, give me my hat back, and the guy says No, and laughs. Then my friend reaches
for the hat, and the guy pulls back, and laughs. Then there it is, BOOOSH 2 palm-heel strikes to the bridge of the nose,
grappling insues, and my friends then lands a knee to this guys collar bone, dropping him to the ground in a big bloody mess
in a matter of 3 seconds. Noone else in there wanted to fuck with this kid so they all backed off.
You can't always rely on other people so your only other choice is to arm yourself, which can prove to be practical and fun <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . I have an idea for a non-lethal weapon that can be easily constructed. All
you need is one of those part-popper novelty fireworks, insulate it very well with several layers of duct tape,and take out all of
the stramers, add a few grams of black powder and double it's weight in iron fillings, magnesium fillings, and some irritants
that won't be destroyed like some sodium hydroxide. The string is pulled and the device is pointed as close to the victims face
as possible. When the cap goes off, it will ignite the blackpowder which will propel and ignite the materials in the party popper.
The iron/magnesium fillings will cause sever burns and a blinding flash, which will look very scary to any of this persons "crew",
and the sodium hydroxide will cause some severe irritation that will leave the victim blinded, and possibley fucked up for life.
This device is half actual application and half intimitadion. If one of my friends got blasted with some strange enormous fire
ball and i didn't know what it was i'd sure as hell run the fuck away.

Great post NBK. Saved me a lot of time. And you are exactly right.
The key to fighting multiple attackers.... is that you dont.
Even without a weapon in play, you always fight one at a time, keep him between you and everyone else. This is, of course, a
last resort.
Here is what I would have done in your situation, Jhonbus...
Pulled my knife (that I had at the ready once I saw I may have trouble), and with one hand I would have reached for my
wallet, and the other had the knife as concealed as possible. As you hand him your wallet, and he reached for it, pull it away
and stab him in the throat or face, or in the rib cage. Attacker #1 is taken care of. Of course this is an ideal situation, and that
is how it would play out in my head. I would probably have to do something less interesting, like simple sticking him once
anywhere and running.
Quick knife fighting tip: If stabbing into the rib cage area, keep the knife blade horizonal so that it penetrates through the
ribs and doesnt get jammed before striking vital areas. After knife is inserted, TWIST 90 degrees, then remove, repeat if
necessary. This will create immense bleeding, and will make a gaping wound instead of one that seals itself up somewhat.
Anyway, after he is taken care of, I simple turn the other direction (as far from his "posse" as possible), and run. Surely you
can out run a half dozen street punks, right? You do run regularly, don't you? If not, do so.
Now, of course you didn't have a knife. Simple kick him in the sack, kick him in the chest to knock him off balance, punch him
in the throat, or eye gouge him. Anything long range and at least temporarily distracting. This will give you at least a few
second advantage when running away, which should be sufficient. This is, of course, if he can/will chase you at all.
Muggers like this want easy targets, generally speaking. Why run after someone like that if they could just as easily wait ten
minutes for some scared old lady that will give them no trouble?
Jack Ruby June 24th, 2002, 07:37 PM

endotherm,
That doesn't sound much like any of the Ju-Jutsu techniques I have seen. He definitely handle that right.
There are many threads on MA already so I will be brief. If you don't train to fight you will do it poorly. some is instinctive but
not all. As for the books on Self-defence sold in books store like chapters; they simply are crap.
When ever I enter a room I always look around to see what can be used as a weapon what the potenial situations will be and
and solutions. Always pay attention to what is around you.
If someone is "Eye-ball Fucking" you; look over at him establish eye contact and nod. This basically means I see you, I saw
you watching me, and I acknowledge you.
In the movie "Spy Game" Robert Redford said,
"When was the Ark Built?
Before the Rain before the Rain"
Keep those words in mind...
PYRO500 June 24th, 2002, 11:15 PM

Some things that you may want to think about:
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, generally if you are robbed at gun point you should really consider wether resistance that
could get you killed is worth the posessions on you.
Don't pull a weapon unless you are going to use it, often when people pull a weapon they are relying on it's fear factor to scare
their oponnent into running away, a real street thug won't likely be fooled by this and is likely to cap your ass or stick you like
a pig.
Do make the first avalable move, a counter response can make you the agressor witch induces fear and surprise in your
enemey
Don't stick around unless you have to, if you can run you should there is nothing dishonorable about running away from a
situation that you will likely loose
also you should know that if you are caught after going hanibal lecter you are best suited to get your ass outta there fast as
the cops will arrest all of you and any judge or jury looking at your wounds you made with your teeth are going to think of you
as an animal that needs to be caged as wellas any chance you have with the baling oficer.
angelo June 26th, 2002, 09:22 AM

NBK, it seems like I might have not known what I was talking about but in the heat of battle, with my adrenalin pumping and
my mind thinking ahead I missed the three other gooks. It was unprofessional. I know. And now I have the scar to prove it.
It is always easier to look back and say to myself that I should have done this and I should have done that. But when it
comes down to the crunch it all goes to ratshit. Adrenalin can be a man's best friend or their worst enemy. I know now that I
should have kept the knife in my hands and ditched it somewhere far and I know now that I sould have been walking on the
inside.
Mick answered your question. Down here any sort of weapon can get you prosecuted. A friend of mine had a bullet on his key
chain. he sharpened it so he could stab someone with it. He got a $250 fine and a night in jail because of it. I am not going to
start bitching about the laws down here, but basically your fucked when you step out of your house in the morning. Your not
safe even when you are at home.
nbk2000 June 26th, 2002, 10:24 AM

I'd say don't carry a concealed weapon because you'd risk losing your right to own a gun later on...but you already have! :p
Tough luck being an ozzie, eh?
Be that as it may, you can still have some defensive capabillities that I don't think any cop could fuck with you about. A bottle
of cheap, watery, hot sauce in the squeezable plastic bottle it comes in is a form of pepper spray.
What about an air-horn? Any sudden noise over 70 dB is interpretted by the body as a threat. The louder and more sudden
the noise, the greater the threat, and thus the greater the flinch response. Blast someone point-blank in the face with a 120
dB air-horn and they can't do anything but cower. Then RUN! :D
You do have a note from your doctor saying that you need a cane for supporting a knee injured in a skating accident, right?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Perhaps wear a knee brace to add credence to the story.
Also, use a decoy to draw the punks away while you run away. Get some play money (or paper) that looks approximately like
real money and mix it in with a some real bills of little worth. Buy a cheap toy cellphone too. These are your "chaff and flare"
to draw away the punks "missle".
Wrap the bills wrapped loose around the toy phone and keep it in an easily reached pocket. When accosted, you dispense
your "counter-measures package" past the punk, away from your route of escape then run. The phone is a weight that carries
the bills a distance, scattering them about. He either chases after you or turns around to pick up the "goods". SInce he jacked
you to get the goods, his priority will be to get them before some other scumball does.
The look on his face when he realizes he's been had would be priceless to see, but you're already long gone by then. :p If the
"cell-phone" happened to explode when the punk picked it up, blowing his hands to red mist, then that'd be double bonus
points for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
PYRO500 June 26th, 2002, 11:03 AM

I remember a trip to washington dc, the guide book aid you should carry a dummy wallet for that purpose. although DC is like
a sugar coated NY no one mugs you in the street in that town(well very few) there is too much security along with cameras
everywher on subways, instead they way at the front of apartment buildings if you dupe them they can still come after you. a
250$ fine and a night in jail is nothing compared to a week in the hospital and $5000 in medical bills. I took my chrome
knuckles to school with me every day the last week knowing damn well what would happen if I was caught, I took em anyways
beacuse I'd like to stand a chance if I was jumped by dirty mexicans or coons. In fact I used to keep a screwdriver in my
pocket when I would walk through the neighborhood near my house, I have learned though to not go through that
neighborhood due to the 3 or 4 unsolved murders. You'd be surprised what a good screwdriver can do when it's properly forced
into someone and I have an excuse for having it, it's beacuse I'm a liscenced electronic technition and a part time computer
tech, in fact I also like to tak thins apart, perticularly things that don't belong to me like thermostats, desks, and rual phone
boxes.
J June 26th, 2002, 01:54 PM

This is just a theory, but I doubt the police bother searching people dressed as businessmen. If I ever get a job where I have
to wear a suit (fairly likely), I might well start carrying a gun, or a large hunting knife. I've never been searched in my life
anyway, and I'm usually dressed in a T-shirt and baggy jeans.
My philosophy on self defense is to be aware of my surroundings. If I see a group of pikeys (scumbags from the council
estate) anywhere in my path, I'm instantly on my guard. I try to project self-confidence, and I look straight ahead but not in
their eyes.
I've never been attacked yet. If it came to a fight, I'd go for the throat, head, neck, and other dangerous areas. The way I
see it, if someone attacks me unprovoked, they deserve everything they get.
I lift weights, and I'd like to take up Jiu-Jitsu if I can get laser treatment on my eyes. I wouldn't say I'm especially big (yet!),
but I'm bigger and stronger than most of the pikeys I see.

If you have never been searched, I presume you have never been arrested... Why not just get a permit to carry a concealed
weapon???? I know I know you might not want to give the feds your fingerprints... but hey.. if your that worried about it, there
aint nuthin that can make ya feal a whole lot safer than a .45 tucked into your pants and a few extra clips in your back pocket.
J June 26th, 2002, 03:24 PM

I live in the UK. It's illegal to even own a single shot .22 pistol, let alone carry a .45 :( In the news today, there's a story of a
vicar who kept a .22 derringer in his house for self defense. He got 4 months in jail! That is how fucked this country is.
leonvios June 26th, 2002, 03:32 PM

i have never been succesfully mugged all who have tried have failed
the first was in town when me and my friends were walking around when we notised two BLACK kids were following we had 4
people in our group
we then got them to follow us down an alley which just incase we knew that it had more than one route of escape anyway they
came up to us
and proceded to ask for money the smell of his breath could damn near rob a bank so i walked away from the group this
made the larger of the two follow even so i dwarfed him in size this aallowed the oythers to gang up on the smaller which they
did not only one took a few swings which unfortunately missed i had not noticed this at first but i stalled the older from rushing
in by sticking my arms in the way he ran around me but i cut him off again before he reached my friend i was looking for him
to starta fight but they cowered away in the end even offered us some crappy drugs we refused and simpley said
piss off you black twats.
the second time we were not outnumbered but we had my cousin with me we did not want to fight but he was being a cocky
little shit and he made them start one beat up my friend while the other was waiting for an oppertunity to hit my cousin so i
could do nothing to help while my other friend is just a natural born... pussie so he just did nothing we got away in the end but
my friend was near enough dead they chased us away i let the one who was going to hit my cousin catch me and he tripped
me up and jumped on my back and proceded in hitting me in the back of the head this did nothing and just as i threw him off
my pussie of a friend said i was a pussie to get him to go away this was extremely annoying i was about to hit him instead but
thought better of it.
anywas the third was kind of a nearlly hero's thing when we walked past some pikies they followed us we knew instantly and i
just happened to have my crossbow in my bag which stuck out they yanked at it loosening a nail making it inoperable so this
was out of the game but my little brave freind again did something about this he pulled a plastic bb gun out on the biggest of
them who instantly thought gun he hit the deck and hid his head until looking up and seeing its real form a crap bb gun they
broke this a little but it still worked they had there way with it they followed us some more when they started to beat up on my
other cousin who was only 9 at the time so i got into a fight with the biggest who pushed me into a nettle bush and a was
backed up by a fence he then pummeled into me hitting me about 15-20 time alot into my head none hurt there was no pain
and after this my friends and i walked away casually like nothing happened. after words you think well if he had done more so
would i but i wouldent fight them on my own but really every one should just go all out if the odds are not all that bad but you
never know what could be in there pokets this is why i will soon be weilding a sword around areas in which i am unsure about
also being ready to run from the pigs. but not from the stupid pikies... and mexicans... and black people.
mr.evil June 26th, 2002, 04:28 PM

i guess having pepper spray, or a flashbang(or something else) would be good...
Does anyone has suggestions for Self defence weapons? Maybe a film cannister with an Flashpowder burstcharge, and filled
with Pepper...

When you're in a confrontation, you want to immediately give yourself the advantage in any way possible. NBK mentioned an
air-horn to startle him. You don't even need that- just scream as loudly as you can. This will throw the attacker off guard long
enough for you to rush him and bring him to the ground. Then you can do what you please >=). Do whatever works. If he's
gonna fuck you up, fuck him up first. The testicles are very sensitive, don't be afraid to hit them. If you have a knife, stab his
balls...that'll put him down for a while. If his buddies try to rush you, give them all a stab in the balls. If some kiddie gangsta
punk were in a fight with me and got me on the ground, I would even grab, twist, and pull. A friend of mine (great girl- wears
speedlace combat boots and collects knives) has done that a few times...she never loses in a confrontation.
In Australia, if you can't carry weapons, maybe wear steel-toed boots? A good kick can break someone's ankle. In the shin,
they'll be incapacitated by the blow. What about the chains that all the punk-rockers wear? Those could make decent weapons.
Hmm...maybe the spiked bracelet as well. Just move it down over your knuckles and you have metal spikes to cut up your
opponent as you punch.
sinstar June 26th, 2002, 04:35 PM

I have to wear glasses, which I hate. You just don't seem to project that "Fear of God" look into your attacker with them on,
well unless your walking towards them with a hatchet in your hand with a physoctic grin on your face :) But I could never do
anything like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

leonvios - Holy shit, use the period key! A period looks like this.
mr.evil - earlier in this topic i posted this:

"I have an idea for a non-lethal weapon that can be easily constructed. All you need is one of those part-popper novelty
fireworks, insulate it very well with several layers of duct tape,and take out all of the stramers, add a few grams of black
powder and double it's weight in iron fillings, magnesium fillings, and some irritants that won't be destroyed like some sodium
hydroxide. The string is pulled and the device is pointed as close to the victims face as possible. When the cap goes off, it will
ignite the blackpowder which will propel and ignite the materials in the party popper. The iron/magnesium fillings will cause
sever burns and a blinding flash, which will look very scary to any of this persons "crew", and the sodium hydroxide will cause
some severe irritation that will leave the victim blinded, and possibley fucked up for life. This device is half actual application
and half intimitadion. If one of my friends got blasted with some strange enormous fire ball and i didn't know what it was i'd
sure as hell run the fuck away."
This could prove to be very effective, perhaps the irritant doesn't have to be as cruel as sodium hydroxide (just to avoid
greater punishment),some kind of irritant that doesnt cause long term damage, like powdered hot peppers. The irritant does
not have to be in powder form, a liquid in a <a href="http://www.scrapbookluv.com/41/cat41.htm?359" target="_blank">small
marijuana bag</a> like that coudl be used, you could just add ordinary hot sauce or something a little more interesting like
sulfuric acid or high concentration hydrogen peroxide.

if you were to use a small hand held explosive devise i would not like to be
A anywhere near the blast
b fumbling around the streets with a sensitive explosive in my pocket that would be easy to throw at his head but could
explode if the hit it in your pocket
so any other easy to use bomb/ incendary that is eask to use compact
and has a short blast range and wont go off in your pocket even if its hit.
im open for suggestions
mr.evil June 26th, 2002, 04:54 PM

Leonvios, You are right... Having flashbangs with you all the time isn't very clever... But you could take it with you in the
evening etc.
Endotherm,
I will do some tests with that method. I think H2O2 isn't irritating enought to burn the skin directly(it takes a while, about 1-
2minutes)
Maybe you could use something that stinks really bad?
BTW.
Has anyone heart about 'Spanish Fly'? i've read you can make this with bugs? It seems to be very irritating :confused:
[ June 26, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]

Endotherm- thats a damn good idea(evil though). But I'd keep the NaOh in though,I got hydrogen peroxide on my fingers
once, and it turned white and I shat myself thinking it would be like that forever.
[ June 26, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: sinstar ]

A party popper is not a dangerous, home constucted device, it is a company's prodcut that has to be safe enough not to go off
during transport, a party popper will not go off if it is struck, especially with the extra ducttape insulation i suggested, and
second, black powder is on of the most shock insensitive LE's around. If you get hit hard enough for it to to go off in your
pocket, you were probably fucked anyway (bullet,hit by a car),a punch wouldn't set it off especially when it is also cushioned by
your relatively soft body matter. The blast would be small, and if properly insulated, and not pointed at you, would most likely
not hurt you,however one would have to experiment to find the optimal amount of propellant to be placed inside, that will
1) Cause no significant recoil.
2) Propel the contents far enough away from you so that none will get on you.
Also leonvios, were you even talking to me? Your absolute rape of the english language has left me confused to what you
were even trying to say anyways.

what about filling a crap wallet with the explosive from a partypopper
attaching the string oneside and the other side with some black powder and some iron and mg powder making a small
explosion which could injure but not kill endo and leave distance from you and the crew and the blast which will allow you to run
laughing while the iron and mg seer there faces.

J-
I thought in the UK, much as in the states you could get a lisence to own such a weapon and carry it on your person. You may
have to ask the queen, instead of the BATF, but in the end it's all the same.. aint it????
Then again... I might not know what the hell I'm talking about!
:)
Rhadon June 26th, 2002, 05:19 PM
If you want an irritating compound you could use acroleine. The advantage in comparance to NaOH solution is that it can be
placed in a refillable 'spraying container' [what's the right word for that?] because it doesn't attack metal.

If you use Acrolein, please be careful. A bad whiff of that can cause death or serious injury. It's not the kinda thing to be
taken lightly. It can also cause skin damage, from what I hear. Also, Acrolein does not store very well; it readily polymerizes to
a non-irritating goop. However, it's better to have some impurities in it; as this checks the polymerization. Benzoic Acid,
Phosphoric Acid, and Hydroquinone (i think that's right), are often used as stabilizers. I've also read somewhere that Acrolein
forms Explosive Peroxides if stored...

Here is a list of some good irritants that could be used:
Liquid:
-30%^ hydrogen peroxide
-sulfuric acid
-pirahna fluid (very dangerous)
-hot pepper sauces,
-high concentration alcohols(flammable)
-lemon juice/citric acid solution
-cyanoacrylate (superglue, VERY irritating and once it hardens in the eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /
>)
-spraypaint paint (blinding and not to mention having a bright blue face for a week :p )
-Strong Ammonia (Smells strongly and is SEVERELY irritant)
-Strong bleach
Powder:
-Sodium Hydroxide/Lye/Crystal Draino
-Fine Charcoal
-Fiberglass/asbestos (give em' a good wiff of some severe and damaging lung irritation after they inhale a sizable cloud of
this powdered substance)
-Copper Dust (Severe mucous membrane irritant)
-Silica Dust (Severe lung damgae after inahling a sizable cloud)
-Calcium Hypochlorite powder (pool chlorine, nasty stuff in mucous mebranes)
*** Edit
I had another idea, in one of these "party poppers" one small marijauna baggie of bleach, and one of ammonia, when the two
bags burst onto the persons face severe irritation is caused, and if it is not washed off right away some small amounts of
deadly chlorine gas will be produced, and directly inahled because it's on the persons face! Also, if he makes a retreat in his
posse's car, they are all fucked from the chloring gas too! Kind of like putting a stick of dynamite on a bears back before he
goes into his den, he locates and kills/injures all his crew for you!
[ June 26, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]

Forgive me for not knowing this but what is a pocket dragon? People are always talking about them, I gather(by the name)its
a small flame thrower that fits in you pocket(well DUGH!). So how is it made? Is it on the FTP?
Snowfist1971 June 26th, 2002, 05:42 PM

Hey Gang, perhaps I'm a little out of my depth for this topic, but let me give you a little perspective on my view of things since
I was a Taekwondo student for a couple of years.
In a potiental fight I've always found these simple rules to always be effective.
1. Always take the psychological advantage, as mentioned, meet long evil stares eye to eye, don't flinch at jumping
movements if possible as it reveals fear. Always keep a calm face, or at the very least a wild eyed toothy grin.
2. Know your environment. Don't let yourself be herded somewhere where you can be attacked easily. As mentioned,always
make a lot of noise when attacked. Also, as mentioned, be aware of potiental weapons nearby such as scraps of
lumber,discarded metal pipe,partially broken glass bottles, loose dirt or sand( good for diversions especially if thrown at
someone's face), garbage can lids or especially the smelly garbage in them. You can't imagine the phsychological effect of
showering someone with lots of garbage when they don't expect it and of course most such garbage will wash off anyway.
3. Body parts can make good weapons but some obvious every day items work well too such as keys between the fingers as
claws, "rat tail" combs with the back edge sharpened in a rough way so as not to look intentionally sharpened, and such things
you might normally carry.
4. When without a weapon in hand, strike soft parts of the body where blood vessels pass such as the front of the neck and
throat, "boxing" the ears destroys the sense of balance, the soft area just beneath the ribcage will knock the wind out of
somebody if struck with strength, poke the eyes, and of course the ever common crotch blow.
I could go but that pretty much covers it.

sinstar-
A pocket dragon is a handheld flamethrower using an aersol can as propellant and fuel <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/
ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000082;p=1" target="_blank">THIS THREAD</a> That could have been found by a
simple search!
leonvios- I barely understood the wallet sentence but from what i grasped you are discussing a trick wallet, that explodes when
opened . That is actually a good idea but we are talking self-defense here, you can't defend yourself with it, because you still
got beat up and jacked, but later on when they go to check how much they scored, they'll be in for quite a suprise! But you will
still be lying on the curb faced down in a puddle of your own blood because you didn't have the proper weaponry to protect
yourself.

A lot of these things seem like ways to permanently wound or mutilate an attacker. To what point would all of this still be
considered "self defense" and when does cross over to "assault" or "assault with a lethal weapon"? I think we should really pay
attention to that when choosing a method of self-defense. Exploding wallets that take off fingers and hands are a big no-no.
If a burglar who falls through a window and cuts his leg on a kitchen knife that was left out is able to sue the owners of the
house for leaving out the knife, imagine what they could do to you for planting explosives in a dummy wallet. Some things
that can temporarily incapacitate are good, like the film canister filled with chile powder or black pepper or something. But
when you go overboard and start spraying pirahna fluid on someone, then you can really screw yourself over. Flamethrowers?
What are you thinking!? You'll have the ATF pull you into an interrogation room and ass-rape you (not literally, but pretty
much). God forbid you actually decide to pull a knife on someone and start slashing at their face! Especially if it's a little kiddy
gangster who has his buddies to be witnesses against you. Your face will be on every corner and lamp-post until you are
arrested and locked in a cage for 2000 years. Small explosives that blow NaOH everywhere? You'll be treated as a "terrorist"
(i.e.: secretly arrested, "enemy combatant", no constitutional rights, held indefinately...).
Instead, you should think of ways to not actually hurt the attacker, but to convey the message of what COULD happen to the
little punks. I like the idea of pulling the knife and simply threatening to slash his throat or neuter him. Yes! Push the bitch up
against a wall with the back of the blade to his neck and say what you wish! Maybe you could pull out a deactivated hand
grenade and pull the pin? Threaten to drop the spoon if they don't leave you alone... "If I lift this finger, you will all die in 5
seconds." All a bluff, no harm done.
But then the general brawl shouldn't get you into too much trouble. If it's just a bare-fist fight with no weapons drawn, the
penalties won't be TOO bad.
[ June 26, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
nbk2000 June 26th, 2002, 11:30 PM

I can see the story now:
"5 local youths, while doing a safety patrol of the night streets, notice a suspicious loner walking alone. When they approach
him, the terrorist pulls out a grenade and attacks them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
After fleeing, they contact the (police/constables) who dispatch the (FBI/SAS) to capture the terrorist who, unfortunately,
resisted arrest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and was shot 47 times with automatic weapons fire.
The dead terrorist was discovered to be a local citizen. Apparently, the Al-qadia (however it's spelt) terrorist network includes
all nationalities. It's because of this that all citizens are asked to co-operate in random searches of their homes and persons."
RTPB: "Don't make threats. You'll appear weak if you don't carry them out, and forwarned your enemy if you do."
If you're pulled over carrying a dummy grenade, you might as well have a live one for the amount of time you'll be doing.
Post 9/11, you'll be a "terrorist" if it's real or not.
If someone attacks you, then they deserve anything they get. Period.

DAMN RIGHT NBK!
My personal opinion is that if someone messes with me, i will do anything I can to fuck them up, and if it involves severely
maiming the other person, well...too bad for them.
These weapons i suggested are basically equal to a gun in punishment if you were caught, they would definitely be considered
deadly weapons by authorities. These weapons are alternatives to guns because in some places and for some people it's very
hard to actually get guns. These weapons and chemicals suggested aren't pussy Non-lethal/Non-Damaging weapons, just good
ole' killing machines :)
And that thing about the burgular hurting himself in someones house with a knife, that is from a movie with Jim Carrey called
Liar Liar or something, that never really happened.
MoToMaStR June 27th, 2002, 04:35 AM

heh, back in 6th grade i picked up a book called "hand to hand combat" and learned alot of the commonly used military
tactics which definatly gives you the edge when a homie wants your wallet and phones. another good one is called "deadly
fighting tactics of the world" iv only ever been put in the position to threaten to break a guys neck and sever the spinal cord if
they didnt get lost. usualy its the head of the group that does all the talking and gets in your face, if you put your arms up in
the air, they automaticly calm down a bit thinking your submitting already, when he gets in grabbing distance, either strike
downwards with an over hand blow to the color bone on his left side, breaking the color bone, causing an unbearable amount
of pain for the victim, then take your right arm and turn him so his back is towards you. now is where you make your decesion.
you can preform the naked strangel, (his back still to you, you have your forearm locked into his throat with yuor right hand
hlding onto you left fore-arm and you puch against his head with your left arm and bodyb while you press in with the right arm
into his throat.) this does 2 things, your chokeing the living fuck out of the guy, and youv near totaly cut off the blood flow to
the brain. if you continue to hold this it may cause them to lose conscienceness in a matter of seconds, brain damage after
about 1 minute or so, burst blood vessels all above the locked point, and eventully DEATH. if not for the gasps and gags for
air, it will be the petrified screams for mercy if you ease up on his throat that will back off the homies. threaten to kill him, and
see what they do. just remember to stay cool, be relaxed and dont lose your concentration.if your feeling ballsy, start twisting
his neck upwards and say you come any closer im gunna break it. the books teach you to take control of the situation. hope
this information is usefull to some of you.
PYRO500 June 27th, 2002, 04:56 AM
Pulling a grenade is probably the easyest way to ensure a trip to the hospital anyone around here pulling a grenada out as a
weapon would be laughed at. The dummy grenades that you can commonly get are very specific looking and as I recall there
hasn't been many uses of (military throwable) grenades in crime in the us or otherwise (but plenty of people with dummy's). I
did see on one of those cop shows some guy decided to take on the police with a grenade but he inevitably blew only himsef
up (there could have been ahostage but I cant remember if they got free) anyone that even thought the device would know
that you would almost certainly kill your self if the grenade went off and unless they were totaly convinced you were a suicidal
psycotic (not realy feasable to fake) they would curb stomp your ass most likely. To quote Deus Ex "A bomb's a pretty poor
weapon for close range combat"
[ June 27, 2002, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

PYRO- that game fucking rocks. I recently beat it (well, all 3 endings that is)
edit: prematurely hit the post button
Anyway...
why the fuck do you all think taking tae kwan do and reading military h2h combat books will turn you into rambo overnight?
As a general rule regarding martial arts, IF you wear asian uniforms (whether gi or otherwise), practice ancient dances, and
prance around while centering your ki or whatever, YOU ARE NOT LEARNING PROPER SELF DEFENSE.
ALSO, as a general rule, 50% of the martial arts books on the market are SHIT. The OTHER 50% require you to PRACTICE,
PRACTICE, PRACTICE in order for the book to do you ANY good.
Listen to me, PLEASE believe me. Do not learn fancy locks and throws and other bullshit low percentage techniques. Those
kinds of things are not to be relied in. In fighting, you need to master your bread and butter before you even THINK of trying
advanced techniques. Akido locks are good for drunks, women, and children... sometimes. That's if you're lucky.
Learn basic kicks, basic punches, practice sparring with a friend, practice THE CLINCH, GRAPPLING (aka ground fighting), AND
striking, all three. The basics. Punches, kicks, knees, elbows. Spar with a friend, A LOT. In fact, that isn't even good enough,
you need to spar MANY DIFFERENT people so that you will be more prepared for any conflict.
If you have a knife, LEARN HOW TO USE IT. Philipino martial arts are the best you can get for knife and stick fighting, IMO. Do
not waste your time with fancy asian weapons that you will never encounter. Learn knife fighting, stick fighting, and no other
weapons.
For grappling, learn Brazilian JuiJitsu. NOT normal jui jitsu. BRAZILIAN. After 6 months to a year, you will have a great base in
grappling. HOWEVER, always keep reality in mind. What works in tournaments doesn't work on the street (concrete, for
starters).
Tae kwan do is not a complete art. You will be a pretty good kicker, but that's it. You will COMPLETELY lack clinch, grappling,
and weapon skills. These are all important.
Boxing can never hurt. Take up boxing at a local place! After 6 months, you will have a moderate skill level that will improve
hand speed, defense against what most people do (punch), and generally prepare you for what a normal American fighter
does (punch).
Muay Thai boxing has been HIGHLY praised for its street effectiveness. Take it if possible. You will become a great stand up
fighter after a good length of time training in Muay Thai. You will also be great in the clinch, certain types of takedowns, and
ESPECIALLy kicking, with moderate punching skills too.
But now, let me tell you what would save you what could be years in training all of these things... TAKE MIXED MARTIAL ARTS
OR JEET KUNE DO.
High level JKD people are for the most part in charge of America's elite groups' h2h training. JKD will give you a well rounded,
jack of all trades training. You will learn the most functional aspects of all of the arts previously mentioned, as well as several
more. You simply cannot beat JKD training (or mixed martial art training, which are somewhat similar).
JKD is the ONLY complete martial art. It covers all ranges, as well as functional weapons.
Have I ranted enough? I doubt it...
hmm...what else didn't I cover...
OK... in conclusion, don't be stupid, don't waste your time with traditional martial arts (ie karate, shodokan, tae kwan do)
[ June 27, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]
frostfire June 28th, 2002, 04:23 PM

wow, I'm impressed.....
back in the evil days, I've thought of making the lecter appearance, the basic theory is; one who has nothing to lose is
ultimately dangerous, if the attacker see that you're not afraid of death and pain, they will ask themselves if they can afford
having the same attitude....
anyway, that HONKER is one ingenious idea, not only it will hurt/distract/disorient the person, but for sure it would draw
attentions to the sight. I've never thought of the distraction methods as well...exploding cell phone...uhm, gee, wonder how
you'd explain to the cops.
I used to carry scalpel around when I was still working in tissue engineering dept, but I guess I never had the chance to use it,
or even would use it
in martial art, I believe JKD is one "free" martial art, as one says that if BL is still alive, he would have explored grappling
technique
But I found out that martial art is useless if you don't have the "killer instinct" on the first place, if you're that type of person,
in that last second you know you're about to do something hideous to your attacker, you'll stop, even if you seemed ruthless
in training with a partner or dummy.
My strategy now is simple, most if not all of you are intellectual people. Wounds, adrenaline, testoterone urge etc etc..and
getting killed are not worth those pocket change in your wallet right?
Sometime you just have to aim for bigger picture, these people living in the street would have a darker future than yours if
you compare it to your circumstance. So why let yourself subdued by them???
When a mugger approached me, I usually just say; " if I have lots of money, do you think I'll be walking and using public
transportation now? Please Sir (call them something nice!), I know you're having a tough time, but hurting me won't make
things better"
I've proven this to be working twice, and yes, I did give my belongings away twice as well.
ps: in a safety course, it was taught of being aware of your surroundings, one way to do this is by looking to your side; you ca
actually see 360 you might not see in details, but you can detect motion. Just try swaying your hand in you side while looking
forward.
If anything makes you uncomfortable, cross the street, enter a restaurant, or anything to avoid getting mugged.
AmonDin June 30th, 2002, 03:17 PM

If you have time to and money to spend learning a martial art, good for you, if not, time to assess your natural advantages.
If you're larger and stronger, try to get in a grappling match, more often than not you can simply overwhelm an attacker. If
you're small and fast, use your advantage, simply attack quickly and get out quicker, don't get grabbed.
Also look at your opponent, if he's faster, kick his legs and knees to slow him up. If stronger or larger, fast strikes to vital
areas (eyes, face, throat, groin) should equalize him pretty quickly. Hand-dominant opponents (more likely in north america/
britain) are usually able to protect their face/torso very well, so your strategy should be to attack lower, legs, knees, groin;
frustrate them with their inability to block low attacks. Anyone who relies on kicking must (duh) use one leg to kick while
standing on the other leg. Simply attack the base leg, once reduced to ground fighting, their kicking ability will be useless.
Look for potential weapons, and think before using them, any weapon you carry or pick up can be taken and used by your
opponent. If you DO carry a weapon, make sure you know how to use it AND how to defend against it/render it useless.
Use any and all advantages in any combat situation (combat- i.e. life-threatening). Muggings (though if your opponent is
mugging you with a gun, I don't reccomend fighting back, twenty bucks and a drivers liscense isn't worth a bullet lodged in
your kidney) and break-ins are combat situations, local punks looking for a fight are not. For example: When I was younger
(Freshmen in High School), a group of smaller/weaker kids (wiggers, the wannabe white gangsters in our small, sububurbab
town) followed me home after I 'stepped up' to their leader while getting off the bus. (in reality, he tried to obstruct me while I
was getting off, I simply shoved him aside.) I went to the kitchen to get a sandwich when my little brother came home, he said
a group of kids were waiting for me outside. I step outside to find the same child I had encountered on the bus (complete with
backwards baseball hat and wife beater) with his "posse" about ten feet behind. He obviously wanted a fight, but after a few
minutes of throwing him around (his pathetic punches were easily stopped) I told him and his group that I was going inside to
finish my sandwich, that they were a waste of my time and I had better things to do... like eating. When they tried to follow
me in I turned and said the first one to step inside my house would be breaking in/entering, and I would be well justified in
jamming a knife in their gut. They didn't try to come in, but stood outside calling for me to come out and fight for an hour,
eventually they got bored and left. (he was the only one yelling, his posse was silent)
Use group psychology to your advantage, a group is a band of weaker elements that have joined together for strength, look
for the leader and take him down quickly, the other elements may become demoralized and fragment. If there is no definable
leader, simply attack the first available target. A groups weakness is the individuals who comprise it because they depend on
the power of superior size, if one element gives up, the others may begin to question their involvement as well, giving you
enough time to escape. The only reasonable course against group attack is to run away at the earliest possible time with the
least amount of sustained damage. Trying to defeat the whole group only makes them coalesce against you. Divide and
escape.
When in any fight, consider the area sorrounding you, is it open, close-in, or inclined? Open spaces favor good mobility and
longer weapons (be it long arms, a large stick, or a gun) and deterr smaller, close fighters because they have less chance to
to tie up and confine their opponent. Open spaces also allow the best chance for escape with minimal damage. Closed spaces
such as hallways or narrow alleys, favor grapplers and close fighters, keep your opponents back to a wall and inflict damage by
driving him into barriers. When on an incline (stairwell, ramp, hill) always aim for high ground. Your opponents attacks will be
slower and lack power, and his retreat will always be in danger of tumbling down the incline.
Did I ramble? I think I did....
kanbayat June 30th, 2002, 11:13 PM

there are a couple websites that might be of interest in no-nosense street self defense without all the martial arts mumbo
jumbo. first look at sammy franco's site,simply type his name in search,also rich dimitries "senshido" both teach no-nonsense
self defense techniques,some might surprise you. they have tapes and books that teach down to earth self defense. marc
mcyoung and those to also have a site together called the combat coalition. I have tapes and books by all three
They teach law enforcement,military and everyday ppl like us the art of staying alive in a situation as you have described.
hope this helps
AmonDin July 1st, 2002, 04:55 AM

[EDIT: typo]
You should read some of Sammy's 'war machine' writings. From everything I've read, I've come to believe that this man is a
complete fool, just another weak-minded idiot ready to take his pills and consume.
A quote on 'How to Deal with a Pacifist":
"A pacifist is a person who is too cowardly to fight and too fat to run. If you ever have the terrible misfortune of witnessing a
peace rally (often run by stupid, naive, hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, try this effective of teaching why force is sometimes
needed. 1) Approach the rich, ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation to terrorism"
2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate. 3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?" 4) Wait until he
says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not
cause more violence." 5) When he's in mid sentence, slap the little bitch across the face. 6) When he gets back up to up to
punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he
should not cause more violence." 7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence. 8) Slap him
in the face again, harder this time. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to strike
back. "
Judging from the 'terrorist' jargon, this man is one of those people who has become successful in one field, and now believes
he knows everything. He has also absorbed a lot of propeganda and is now indoctrinating his students with it. Be aware of this
if you decide to buy one of those videos or books.
From the "War Machine Code of Conduct":
"A War Machine has compassion for the weak or handicapped. "
"A War Machine ALWAYS obeys the law."
"A War Machine is a skeptical yet open-minded. "
Again, catch phrases and blind subservience to authority and the shifting winds of political correctness.
I'm not criticising this man's martial ability, for all I know, he may be the best H2H fighter on the planet. Just be aware, this
man does not sound too intelligent, and you have to take everything you absorb from him with a grain of salt. In all his honor
and compassion BS (yet utter willingness to harrass and beat those with unpopular political beliefs) he may have overlooked a
simpler, more applicable solution.
[ July 01, 2002, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: AmonDin ]
A-BOMB July 1st, 2002, 08:33 PM

Thats why you carry your "equalizer"(gun), knife or a pull-pin
cratermaker(great for drunks and packs of dogs). I carry a spyderco "police" G2 stainless 5 1/2 inch with spyderedge, or for
along time I carried a Cratermaker,cob,12gram bomb what ever you call it that was pull-pin safety and a impact igniter, so I'd
pull the pin and toss it at the concrete infront of them. But first I cut the case almost all the way through and glue rock salt to
the outside and paint a nice color, so when it goes off it doesn't produce any shrapenal but make a loud bang and pelts them
with lots of rock salt and it hurts like hell. I know because I was to close when I tossed one at a bunch of niggers that were
after this new camo and gear I bought when I was at the army/navy store in Pittsburgh one evenning.
So never get close anothe for them to get near you and when one gets too close for comfort kick him in the floating ribbs of
use a palm strike the fultrum (bottom of nose) and they should all run away because that nose strike will kill instanly or
should put them down now and they won't be up for a while.
kanbayat July 1st, 2002, 09:50 PM

having seen some of franco's video's and I own some of his previous books(havn't seen war machine..this is his latest).
regardless of his politics,the man knows self defense as does dimitrie,and several others in the coalition. I have rich dimitries
tapes on rape prevention for my grand daugther, and the first 3 of franco's. while it is implausible to learn from tapes
entirely,there is much to be gleaned in the psycological aspects of self defense in these tapes. If you are in a larger city,there
may be an opportunity to learn some of these no nonsense techniqus from a qulified instructor. Another caution is to stay
away from traditional martial schools,as most are not effective by there self in practicle self defense. franco teaches the
boston police department,has been involved with the marine corp in teaching as well as army sf,and other leo organisations
his techniques. which combine the best and easiest to learn aspects of boxing,tai chi chuan,hapkido,hwa rang
do,wingchun,wrestling,and many others,as do dimetries and marc mcyoung,although his are slightly different. I believe it is
the responsibility of all to know how to defend ones self,whatever the means,and to search out the methods ,be they
pyro,h2h,a rat tail comb dipped in nicotine sulphate,or whatever is best suited for that individual. I have been in situations not
unlike the one that started this thread,many times in the last quarter century.
do a search,visit a local h2h in youre city,just please for youre sake stay away from traditional matrial arts, it is youre very life
that could be at stake.
nbk2000 July 2nd, 2002, 12:20 AM

If the "school" insists on you wearing gi, bowing to the sensei, katas, colored belts, eastern mumbo-jumbo, etc...walk away.
Last thing you want to do is waste your time in a McDojo. :p
You want a school where you wear street cloths, have full contact sparring with people your size or bigger (challenging
opponents), modern weapons (not swords and haragana), breaking bones, smashing nuts, ripping throats, violent and bloody,
etc.
Such schools are few and far between, and you may even have to travel or move to attend one, but if you're serious about
wanting to learn a lethal H2H methodology, then that's what you've got to do.
Maddoc July 2nd, 2002, 09:37 AM

This post is all too familiar with what I have been thinking about lately...
8 months ago I had my hand and nose broken, and sustained a cut to my head (one of the reasons for my absence lately),
unfortunatly, the situation i was in (baseball bat from behind) I had little to go on other than to kick the fucker in the balls
when I was lieing on the ground, and to try to stab him with a pen (to little avail, the first blow to the back of my head
completly stunned me).
The reason I suffered these injuries was I was not on my guard, and by the time I knew what was happening it was too late.
Prevention is better than cure...
But only about 3 months ago, whilst walking in Archway (London), this black youth (around 16) came up to me and asked me
for a cigarette, even though I was smoking one at the time my reply was "Sorry mate, I havnt got any". He replyed with the
ever so annoying "Ok then, gimme a quid" (quid = 1), the reason that pissed me off so much is they all seem to take that
approach, the first time I ever got mugged (aged 12) they took that approach, yet still took my wallet when I went to get the
coin.
When I told him to "go fuck yourself", he said "I could just beat you up and take it so why dont you give it to me". Taking this
as a threat, yet not knowing whether he was armed, I reached into my pocket, pulled out a pound coin, and opened up my left
hand in front of him revealing the coin. This was so he would remove his hands from his pockets to get the coin, as he leant
forward, my right hand made swift contact with his nose, whilst my knee made contact with his crotch. The negroid hit the floor,
I stamped on his neck, then continued to walk back home.
I guess the moral of the story is to pick your moment like Jhonbus said, then again, the satisfaction of beating the crap out of
some dumbass "Rudeboy" who thinks he can take your possesions, is perhaps one of the best feelings in the world.
Nowadays I carry my "vicks nasel inhaler" of hell, nothing like a blast of Capsicum and Isopropyl alcohol to the punks eyes is
there, after that then its time to have some fun =)
Harry July 2nd, 2002, 12:10 PM

Important to remember, when preparing your psyche for battle with the crap that is taking over the streets, is that if YOU
shorten their career, you're doing the community a service, as the germ in question won't bother anyone else. Try the book,
Secure From Crime, by Don Paul and Craig Huber. Don Paul is ex-SF, author of Great Living in Grubby Times and Everybody's
Knife Bible. Huber is a professional bodyguard. Don Paul is heavy on the Born-Again Christian retoric, but makes some very
good points.
I worked in a surplus store for a while, read all the books. Should have bought more of them; some hadn't been declassified
yet, but grunts were selling them by the boxful!
EP July 2nd, 2002, 12:41 PM

People are always talking about how the US is so violent and whatever, but it seems just about everyone from the UK has
been mugged! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
A few kind of silly ideas:
Expanding on the exploding wallet idea, I've seen wallets at magician shops that when opened shoot a fireball. It would not
cause serious injury but you could give them that wallet and run away to leave them with their "prize". If you were feeling extra
evil, they use flash paper and you could add a bit of your own powder to give it more punch.
While on the subject of magicial toys, you could check out handheld fireball projectors: <a href="http://www.starmgc.com/
fire.html" target="_blank">http://www.starmgc.com/fire.html</a>
While they wouldn't really be practical to carry with you at all times, if expecting trouble you could carry it. Imagine the surprise
of a mugger who gets a firball shot at him!
frostfire July 2nd, 2002, 04:15 PM

Harry, could you please mention excerpts from Don Paul heavy on the Born-Again Christian retoric? I'm kinda interested
is there anyone here a pacifist?
slamming some punk to the ground can give certain unique sensation, but had anyone think what that punk thinks? If you
say he'll be hiding and be afraid next time he sees you than you'll prove that's wrong in the hard way. Most street punks are
cowards, you beat them today, tomorrow, he and his 10 coward comrades will beat the juice out of you. I wonder how you guys
can be so confident with such act? (unless of course, if you too are street punk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> )
Sometime it seems that it's best to "keep" the punk from further harm and reaching out for friends, but you could end up
behind bars for that, so far the way I see is if you have more to lose than him, it's unfortunate but it's best to give in, or
commit some "soft" defense and run away....anyway, even this doesn't work so much in today's society. Guess it's near the
end
Arkangel July 2nd, 2002, 05:28 PM

I thought about this quite a bit after one of your other posts frostfire, and I'm glad you asked the question.
I'm definitely a pacifist, and it's interesting to see the difference between me now, and when I was 18, just about to join the
military, and wearing my "peace through fire superiority" T shirt.
I have, living in my spare room, someone everyone here would call a street punk. I'm giving him a place to live to try and turn
his life around after a few hard knocks recently.
When I met him, he was working in the same office as me, and we just kind of clicked. He had something unique about him,
that all the other sad fat sacks didn't possess, and we have become close friends - to the point that I and my family are pretty
much his family.
What I had no idea of when I first got to know him was that he'd grown up as a street punk, a robber, a violent person with a
very dangerous temper. I gradually learned that about him, and later began to learn of the things that had made him that
way. His father, a drug dealer and thug, who'd beaten him every day to "make him strong", and then poured salt in his
wounds, who'd put his head down a toilet at age 4, and kept on flushing it, who'd half killed him many times. His mother, who
had the same sort of treatment from the father, but then went on to take it out on my friend, beating him, humiliating him,
playing games that fucked him up for life.
My friend ended up on the streets, and his "crew" became his family. They looked after each other when nobody else could or
would. In the last year, I've learnt enough about street life to scare me very much about our future, and to want to make a
difference.
I'm writing this for 2 reasons. First, to explain that gangs like this are going to try and look after each other, and will all fight
as one, not just because they want your cash, but just because that's the code. If you live in their area and make a choice to
fight, either for yourself or society or whatever, remember every day that you're going to remain a target. Do a proper job so
that they never, ever dream of fucking with you again. But if you don't want to fight, keep a low profile, your wits about you,
and out of their way.
Next I'm writing this as a perspective, that my friend never had a chance to grow up to be normal. He was beaten, starved,
humiliated and fucked up for as long as he can remember. He never expected kindness or respect from anyone, and it never
occurred to him that there was another way. I make a point, where I can, of being kind to people in the street, being friendly
and helping people if I have a chance. That would include the punks we're talking about here (unless they were trying to mug
me), because I might just be the person that helps them realise there's another way to live.
I have no doubt that this post will elicit a load of anti-liberal rhetoric, especially from a couple of prominent members <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I also realise that this is a self defense thread in a weapons forum. I
wouldn't want you to think I'd hold back if I or anyone close was being attacked, but we've covered plenty of direct defensive
techniques and it just occurs to me that in a strategic sense, thinking this way might be just as effective in the long term.
You're never going to get through to some people, but some you might!
That's enough bullshit from me for tonight.
Harry July 3rd, 2002, 10:33 AM

Frostfire, will you take a raincheck on the Don Paul excerpts? I'm in the middle of changing residences, and all my books are
packed. Try your local Army-Navy surplus store on a slow afternoon; most carry Don Paul's Pathfinder books, and if the store is
quiet, you can speed-read the book right there--Don deliberately writes for fast reading. He makes numerous Scriptural
references in his writing, which is unusual for books sold in surplus stores, but if you went to Sunday School as a kid, you'll
catch most of them.
Don discusses the morality of self-defense according to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. The Law of Moses (which
includes the 10 Commandments) allows for self-defense and defense of home and family. In fact, it is _required_. Don
includes Christ's advice to the Apostles to "take your swords with you; and if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
David took down Goliath, Samson slughtered Philistines by the thousand, and (what was that chick's name who) hammered a
tent stake through a guy's head. The list goes on. Sure, Don Paul shows off some ego, too, but for the most part provides
good info and technique. Wish I'd read his books when I was in high school, would have saved me some trouble.
grey July 4th, 2002, 10:43 AM

All the unarmed combat stuff does not work against multiple opponents except to give you a couple of seconds extra time
enough to pull out a decisive weapon or until your mates (10 meters away) arrive.
If its you with no weapon and no mates against a little gang who most likely are carrying weapons, then you are dog fucked
unless you have 8 arms.
Under these circumstances, avoid high risk areas and if you are rolled then give them the $. Having throw away money and a
dead phone, as suggested earlier, might satisfy them, so then you can go home in one piece and think about better ways
next time.
You got the time, mate ? He's already assessed you as being a possible victim and is now testing the strength/politeness of
your response to make sure. All thats going to keep him away from you is a response that makes him feel "not this one...".
For this he has to see/feel that to you, his question is only an opportunity to fulfill your genuine and eager need to cause him/
anyone great pain and blood loss. Unless you are a superbly trained method actor the only way to make this response
instinctive under stress is for it to be real, and it only gets that way from sucessfully fighting opponents in the gym and
outside, and enjoying their loss. A brief derisive answer Shut your mouth, cunt....while you keep walking.
Or, a response he doesn't understand despite several different/repeated "questions". The latter would be you remaining
silent, putting your finger to your lips, and pointing back behind you at someone/something..sssssshhhhh!
The pond life specimen has in his little brain a "script" to follow, of what he is going to say and do (probe and threaten) and
what you are going to say and do (plead and pay). When you don't follow the script you might buy yourself enough time to
keep walking far enough away. He WILL keep trying to talk his way in so expect that.
Or, a response that he doesn't expect.

Eg. The only time I have ever been in this kind of pre-mugging situation was when backing my car out of a pub carpark, half
pissed and expressing feelings of love to my girlfriend - ie., no real aggressive posture. Two fuckheads (white teenage welfare
types - Aussies will know the word 'house-o's..') about 15 meters away eyeballed for 2 seconds and wandered over. One asked
"Hey what engines this car got, the V6 eh ??" I twigged to what was happening, switched modes, and spat out "Fuck I dunno,
its a stolen, I only grabbed it this morning, I dont fucken know, why do you wanna buy it or somefink !?" Yes they were
bluffed, yes I had enough time to drive off without them realising, yes there were a couple more lines more of the same, yes I
genuinely felt like a car thief (again), no they did not feel the need to pull a handgun or kick the doors in, no the machete
bladed trench knife in the door pocket did not need to come out, no the thousands of dollars worth of security cameras all
over the carpark did not need to record anything unusual.
The point was that before I saw them I looked soft and caring so they thought I was a good prospect - my later verbal/
physical reponse threw out a lot of energy at them which stopped them long enough. If that energy wasn't (always) there then
it would be a different story.
Bottom line(s)....
Do PT, fighting training, and full contact sparring - if you look like you are a problem then they won't ask questions. If they do
ask, you just know they will go down and they will pick that up too.
** The strongest will wins in the end.** If your willpower melts into the fear that their mind's 'script' expects to see, then you
loose. If instead you want to eat their flesh as NBK described then you win (even if one of their mates puts a round through
your head).
Weapons - forget easy-to-pick-up improvised ones, they are too far away. Yours can stay in your hand inside your pocket until
ready to maim; if they see it they loose their fear of the unknown plus start thinking how to cope with it. Knife searches only
happen to people who look like they are carrying knives.
Questions and answers. Silence is golden. Don't get dragged into a conversation. The more you respond the more you are
following their script and the more control they get, as opposed to you originating your own brief response which they don't
enjoy.
The more you talk the more they learn about you (and it better be scary... ).
Does that all sound like Sun Tzu "Win without fighting.." (No one mugged Master Sun..)
If they physically block you then it hasn't worked. If you walk around them then they have the psycholgical edge over you. Pay
up or fight. Personally I would just run them through as soon as we got to zero distance.
Complications - Angelo said Murphy's law will make it all turn to shit - how true.
Complication #1; SMACK.....druggies are so singleminded.. just gotta get that fit into the vein.. forget logic in a fried brain.
Still, if they ask you the opening questions first then they are still rational enough to become cautious. Also if you get into a
brawl with one expect to get some HIV+, Hepatitus A B C D E F G etc blood on you.
Complication #2; personal honour (theirs). If their mates are around they cannot afford to loose face, so keep your response
quiet and low key so that they can later have a bigger range of explanations to their mates. The honour thing applies a lot to
non whites; ie., Viets and Lebs in Australia.
Keep it as a business transaction; cost versus benefit, and don't upset anyone.
Archangel, 110%, mate - a human life is a human life and if the kid was drowning in a river I would be the first one in to try to
pull him out, but......if he or anyone like him wanted to hurt me or one of my family then I would be the first to hold his head
under water. I hope he learns a lot from you because others will see him in a very different way to you.
[ July 04, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: grey ]
MrSamosa July 4th, 2002, 02:22 PM

Grey- that's well and good... But what if the guy really wants the time :confused: ? You gonna go berserk on him? "Can I have
the time man?" "FUCK YOU! YOU WANNA FIGHT? I DONT KNOW WHAT FUCKING TIME IT IS!" Man, forget everything your
parents taught you about being polite. I'm a nice guy for the most part, polite to everyone even if I don't like them. I've
NEVER had any problems so far...except one where I had to use my pencil (not THAT pencil) on two or three people in school.
Maybe if you just have a good attitude and people skills, you can avoid some of these problems altogether?
[ July 06, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
PYRO500 July 4th, 2002, 02:59 PM

You all are making it more complicated than it needs to be, I'd recomend pepper spray, when someone tries your ass you
spritz them and give em a good low blow, knock them down and kick em in the face.

"He who fights and runs away is wasting valuable running time"
I think grey's analysis of the psycological aspect was quite good.
I must admit that my area isn't too bad, there aren't people who are stabbed for no reason *that* often but people I know do
often get hassled by groups hanging about. I find (quiet) confidence projection to be quite effective. If you feel like a victim
then you'll end up being one. If I have to pass a group, I will not avoid eye contact, but starring incites a challenge, so I'll
meet their gaze and look away as though I acknowledge but dismiss them. I walk through silently with a "don't fuck with me"
thought in mind, I don't know whether this actually shows in facial expression and body language.
Having a weapon in your pocket with your fingers round it, ready to whip it out if you are started on helps a lot.
Arkangel, is this guy more the exception than the rule?
Arkangel July 4th, 2002, 05:19 PM

He's exceptional in many ways (e.g. close on olympic standard 400m runner), but in terms of the street, he's no different to
many of the people we talk about here.
One thing I find interesting is that in terms of violence, he used to look for bigger people to take on. I'm 6'1", 16 stone and
well built. I used to compete in full contact karate, and I have to say there's no way I would want a straight fight with anyone
like him. He's got the physique of Ben Johnson, and a temper you have to see to understand how dangerous he is.
Most of the people he knows from the street are from similarly fucked up familial backgrounds. They bullied and were bullied
at school, and running with a crew was a way to protect yourself at that level, and a means of support later in life.
Frankly it's a miracle that he's ended up in a proper job and been able to keep it. This came about primarily because at a
time when he was living on the street and had sold everything to pay for a gambling/coke habit, he was taken in by a woman
from a church organisation, and she helped him to get his first job. From that point he's clawed his way out of the gutter. But
his brothers and friends are in the same position, every day is one of fear and crime, and they fully expect to die young. This
is not LA, this is England, yet guns are so common, knives are taken for granted.
There's a level of society where awful violence is a heartbeat away, and if you choose to or have to be in such a place, you'd
better tread carefully.
I really liked Grey's post on the psychological side. When I was travelling in South America my mates and I always wore army
hi-leg boots, army khaki pants and similar sweatshirts and generally looked like paramilitaries. Nobody camne near us,
despite other folks being robbed all over the place.
It's like someone pinching cars, if it looks an easy job they'll do it. If not, the chances are they will move on elsewhere. You
have to project confidence, power, and the possibility of danger.
And if you are going equipped with a weapon, mace, baton, film can or spray bottle of pepper, then it better be in your hand,
in a pocket that you can remove it from in an instant. You also better be planning in your mind EXACTLY how you're going to
use on the guy easing up alongside you. "Fortune favours the prepared mind" etc

In fact, he knows I'm on the forum, and is interested by it. Since he's afro caribbean, some of the views expressed here have
not gone down well, but here's a thought...................
Would anyone be interested in the views of somebody who has been on the other side of a mugging? They use car thieves to
design new car security systems, so it might be enlightening to ask him how he would have chosen who to rob and how to do
it. Also, what might have been a deterrent, and what wouldn't?
If you'd like me to set it up, let me know and we'll work out how. :)
panthatar July 5th, 2002, 02:36 AM

in australia where i live in NSW u can be searched at any time if u look sus but u can buy a kobotan and once u put ya key's
on the ring on it it becomes a key ring which when used properly will instill alot of pain and its legal seeying its a keyring that
is just of a sloid nature and has no hidden attachments to it to make ya success of a higher reality one would also learn some
chin na and dim mak and u would be ready for most H2H combat situations i find when attacking if u do it fast and conceal
what u used any other party near bye thinks u used ya hands and adds to scare factor plus it also can be used to block knife
slashes to the wrist area
photonic July 5th, 2002, 03:39 AM

ArkAngel:
I think that idea is very intriguing. I would be more than interested to hear the viewpoint of someone from the "other side." If
you could, allow him to contribute here.
On a side note, I would like to mention that to many people in the world people of "our" type are the ones they worry about.
In the media fed anti-terrorist frenzy here in the US, people of our "type" are the ones to be feared. Not that we deserve this
reputation, but I think it's true. So in a certain sense, most of what said here is from the "other side."
Flake2m July 5th, 2002, 09:31 AM

I believe that "It takes a fool to fight and a man to walk away". So I won't fight someone unless I have no other options. You
may disagree with me, but I know that confrontations can be resolved in other ways, though they aren't always the way you
want.
I am going to put forward a senario:
If a low-life heroin addicated mugger pull a knife on you and says "give me ya fu(king wallet or I will slash ya". this mugger is
6 foot tall, slim build and has the intelligence of a goldfish. You are alone at night in an alleyway walking home.
you have have several options;
1. do what he says.
2. run.
3. try and fight the attacker off
4. puzzle him so he walks off.
nbk2000 July 5th, 2002, 11:37 AM

Can you have a dog in Oz or Britan, or is that illegal too now? :p
If you can, get something MASSIVE like a brindel, presa canario, rhodesian ridgeback, mastiff, rottweiller, or other "assualt"
dog species. Huge, muscular, and violently tempered. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
If you have a 150 pound, foaming at the mouth, ready to devour human flesh on command, bundle of death on the end of a
short leash, I bet you the street cretins will buy a watch rather than ask YOU for the time :D
Grey makes a lot of good points about the psychological battle being fought before the lead flies. If you can mind-fuck your
opposition before they even get one word off at you, then the battles already won in your favor. The only thing left is to put
them down on the pavement where they're destined for.
Nothing freaks a person out like bugs on them. Especially something icky like spiders. You ozzies have some really nasty
bastards called "funnel web" spiders (I believe). The beasts are the size of a golf ball with 1/2" long fangs and lethal poison.
Carry one in a small plastic jar it can't climb out of (with a lid of course!). Some scumball approaches asking for the time,
casually tell him "I don't have a watch, but you can have this if you like". Pull out said spider jar and pop off the lid and show
him the beast reared back with fangs dripping venom. That'd scare ME off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif"
/>
A cup full of fire ants for us americans would work wonders on some 'hood rat. Give it a good shake before tossing a hundred
or so pissed off stingers on the shithead. While he's screaming and running around, you beat a hasty retreat.
Snakes are neat. There's a harmless species that looks just like the lethal coral snake. Carry one around as a pet. A
defanged cobra perhaps? Are snakes considered weapons?
A can of wasp spray can reach out 20 feet and is going to fuck off anyone you spray with it. Tell any cops who stop you that
you're deathly allergic to them.
As for the "script" that the thugs run through, if you prempt their routine, you've thrown a serious monkey wrench in their
thought process. If you KNOW the approaching scuzzy is going to try something stupid, approach him first!
Say something like "Hey man! Know where I can score some (illegal drug)?". Start rambling on about how there's nothing good
around and how you're almost out of your stash.
This gets him to thinking about whether you have dope or money on you and what he should say to get it from you. And while
he's busy thinking about this, when you're within range, you fire on 'em! Not literally (like a gun), but just suckerpunch the
punk and beat the living shit out of him before the shock of YOU (a lowly yuppie) attacking HIM (an all powerful gangsta'
:rolleyes: ) wears off. Then beat feet!
Or, you can do what an aquaintence of mine does. Tell anyone who asks to "Quit begging! Makes people hate you!" and look
them straight in the eyes with HATE! 'Course, dude is like 6'2", 250 pounds of muscle, with sleeved arms (tattooed with WP
and prison symbols), and barely restrained homocidal tendencies, so that might be what makes it work so well for him.
Or, you can be dismissive and tell them "Get a watch!" as you continue to walk past them. DON'T break stride or hesitate, that
shows you're putting on an act. Rehearse it with harmless street beggars in crowded public places before trying it solo on street
thugs.
This sorts out the dumbfucks who are harmless from the thugs using a come-on to size you up. They'll either talk shit to your
back as you walk away, or attack. Either way, you'll know where you stand with them with no hesitation. Better to be rude to an
innocent idiot than polite to a sociopathic predator.
A few fudge brownies rolled up into a "turd" and kept in a plastic bag inside the back of your pants would freak someone out.
Babble on about the "CONSPIRACY against you!" and reach back into your drawers and pull out a handful of 'shit' and offer it
to them as protection against the "mind control rays". Proceed to smear on your face. :D Like Mega said before, even cops
won't approach a nutter with shit!
I've seen molds for making gelatin fingers as a gag food for holloween. At night, a few fleshy and bloody "fingers" to nibble
on might be all the deterrent you need. Be friendly, and offer to share some with your time seeking buddy. Perhaps a good
line like "Here, use a finger to dial the time" and toss it at his feet. :D
Prevention, however, is preferred. If you see a group of "house-o's" or brew-crew sitting on a slope a block away, unless
they're sitting on the very doorstep you need to go to, cut over to the next block and circle around them. Only takes a couple
extra minutes and saves all the drama. The battle never fought is the battle never lost.
As for your "friend", bring him on. It never hurts to have another point of view from the "other" side. :) And as long as he
doesn't say something stupid like "What do you have to be proud about being white for NBK?" like that other BFL retard did,
then he's welcome.
panthatar July 5th, 2002, 12:24 PM

the problem with dogs in Oz is that if u have one it must be on a lesh if u get into a fight and the dog harms anyone in any
way it will be put down and the owner is finned and somtimes even jalied depanding if it was deliberatly used as a weapon
funnel web spiders actualy are more passive then femal redback spiders and the red back is smaller so more could be put in a
container and u can red backs all around australia especialy in built up areas and one bite from a red back can kill small
children and elderly people but make a grown man sick but if u got stung bye 2-3 or more say goodbye and how are they
gonna prove u killed him with spiders its not somthing that alot of police belive if the person who has been killed has friends
to u ratio higher then one seeying aussie cops are used to truble makers in groups and u just have to look clean and
respectible and be curtious to the cops and they will most likley belive u this only works if there is trees near bye the area u
are fighting in
-
Please try to format your posts a bit, these endless sentences are a bit hard to read.
Try to use paragraphs.
Machiavelli
[ July 06, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]
BoB- July 5th, 2002, 05:54 PM

I'd like to say I'm quite proud of myself, last night me and a group of hooligans I barely know went out to shoot off a metric
assload of fireworks. I was lighting bottle rockets in my hand and throwing them when a buddy lit a bottle rocket which went up
into my shirt before exploding, hes a friend, so I just body slammed him :D
A little while later I realised I dropped my lighter when I was on fire, so I was just standing there trying to hook up with a chica
someone had brought with them, all of a sudden 2 guys (forgive my ghetto term) "step" to me, yelling at me that I need to
stop throwing fireworks at them.
I had absolutly no idea what the hell was going on so I just stand there with a pissed off look on my face, all of sudden the
guy that was about an inch from my face stops talking and walks away cursing me. I then looked down to see my box cutter in
my hand, with the blade extended about a 1/2".
there were about 6-7 people there who wouldve beat the shit out of me had that one guy thrown the first punch.
I still dont remember pulling it out or extending the blade, all I remember is practicing the motion in my room for the past
couple of weeks, preparing for just such an occasion.
No matter which weapon you decide to carry, practice, practice, practice.
Ctrl_C July 5th, 2002, 07:54 PM

I have to admit I couldn't be bothered to read this whole thread so if I miss something, I apologize.
This is in response to Tyler_Durden's post (ironically). I completely agree about MA and how a lot of it is crap and you should
learn basics. I never took any MA classes or have read any books but I can tell you one thing from experience that works: fist
fighting.
The hardest part about this is finding a friend thats willing to bloody you up a bit. Once you do though, go all out...punch him
in the face, try (don't really) to break his jaw, throw him down. You'll learn a lot about yourself and be able to figure out if you
can hold your own in a fight or not. Yes, you will be sore for a few days and you will have hella bruises, but oh well....get over
it.
Maddoc July 6th, 2002, 03:37 PM

NBK2K, with regards to dogs, my bitch Rottweiller makes people cross the street to avoid walking past her. Although you dont
always need an "attack" dog for defence.
When my aunt came back home after walking her VERY well trained Labrador, she saw a negroid climb out through her
bedroom window (this was in St Petes Beach). When she shouted at the guy to "DROP THE FUCKING VCR", he through a coolie
at her (those mugs that you put in the freezer), and her dog, which she had never trained to attack anyone (that dog even
stops before she tells it to cross the road) jumped up at the guy and bit into him. Giving her time to kick him in the face
several times before a passer by came to help.
So it seems that a dogs loyalty to its owner is deeper than it seems, just make sure your dog never turns on you.
In essence, the build up to a fight is mostly mental, trying to "psyche" each other out. Whoever hesitates loses, if you start
something, go all out until its over, dont hesitate for any reason, dont give them the chance to get back up. In the street,
theres no such thing as fighting "dirty".
One example that comes immediatly to mind is on the CKY3 tape (thats what Bam Margera and the guys made before MTV
signed them to Jackass), one clip is "Mike Valley Vs. 4 random Ocks", Mike Valley is surrounded by 4 guys, just slightly
smaller than him,this wasnt a staged stunt, this was a real street fight.
They all hesitate and move backwards, whilst Mike, outnumber 4:1, rips his shirt off to reveal pumped muscles and a load of
tattoos, picking him moment, he takes them all down one at a time.
The thing is, if all 4 had started on Valley at the same time, they could have taken him down in seconds, but these four
pussies decide to hesitate, and Mike works through them one at a time. Mike had scared them into moving backwards,
hesitating, then he took them down. (I'll try to upload this clip when I get the chance)
Moral of the story, there is no time to hesitate, just go for it.
J July 7th, 2002, 07:19 AM

If it wasn't a staged stunt, it seems strange to me that his friend decided to film the fight rather than help out in some way.
Some friend!
I have a video CD called Bumfights. It's about various street people (including some filthy crack addict), and includes some
real fights. My observation is that the oponents just keep slugging away at each others faces, without going for dangerous
areas. If I still had cable, I'd upload it to the FTP :-( It's quite funny, including someone dressed as Steve Irwin 'capturing'
tramps and marking them with a pen before 'releasing them back into the wild' :D
nbk2000 July 7th, 2002, 12:52 PM

Bum Catch and Release! A new Xtreme urban sport! <img src="http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon7.gif" alt=" - " />
I can just see it now...you cast a 40 oz. Malt Liquor lure off a freeway overpass into the bushes underneath. And when you feel
a tug on the line, you winch 'em up with the hook in their hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
As they wiggle on the cable you measure their BAL (Blood Alchol Level) and, when finished, cut the cable to drop them back
into the bushes. :D
Whoever catches the soberest bum wins the gold plated 40 oz. trophy. :p
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Most people aren'te experienced fighters, so they're just going on instinct, which is the 'ol "monkey swinging arms wildly"
school of H2H. You've seen it on National Geographic specials about the apes of the rainforest, and now you can see it in any
back alley wino brawl.

Re: my pal, I'll suggest it to him and assuming he's up for it, start a new thread sometime.
edit: forgot to mention that he's started a new job recently and is working hard, so I might not be able to get him on for a
week or two. Meantime I'll get on with some bumfishing - thanks for the idea NBK :)
[ July 07, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
grey July 12th, 2002, 08:06 AM

MrSamosa If they really only want the time..? You mean if two nuns ask me..... oh shit I'm sorry God... :)
No, there really is no room for being nice - an uncompromising attitude keeps everyone, including it's owner, in check.
Pyro500 & Ctrl_C Correct - thinking and hesitation implies faltering willpower - you have to just know.......a bit of Zen around
here somewhere..
NBK What, you just never get any original ideas do ya :) :)

The ants idea is sweet. Fire ants, Oz bull ants..same deal. Probably more of an offensive weapon if you are going after a
specific target with a beer glass sized container of them. Collect them with a vacuum cleaner since they are indestructable.
Fling the ants then drop the container. Gloves ! If the lid gets loose inside your coat while you're carrying it, then you are in
hospital.
The idea about practising is good - in the end it merges into the old concept of just picking fights with people for the hell of it.
Both concepts perfect your public speaking skills - which is what half (the half after you get asked the time) this is all about.
Brawling in general ? The Bumfighting video may have been edited to keep the "best" footage of the bums fighting on their
feet showing their full vigour and magnificent raw animal dominance, but most punch ups finish up as a wresting match on the
ground - not the place to be outnumbered. Where can I get a copy ?? :)
OK, a couple more Murphy's Law fuckups that come to mind; when your script about counter-mugging looses a few more
pages...
Complication #3. The chicky (maybe not chicky babe). She walks up to you in the street or inside a building near the street
and please can you give her $2 for cup of coffee or milk for her kid. Simple ? If you're too polite or too reactive then will her
boyfriend 30 meters away think you are a good prospect ? All she is doing is out fishing in a non threatening way since Romeo
is sick of asking people the time. So what sort of person did you tell them you were ? (I presume you didn't pull out 2
bucks.......).
Complication #4. Another test of your reactions. Some dirt type wanders across your direction of travel and just comes that
little bit closer than other pedestrians. He doesn't move out of the way and he does make good eye contact but its obvious he
isn't going to talk or stop. He is going into your personal space. Do you show surprise, distain, fear, curiosity, aggression etc,
etc, about someone in your space ? His mate watching 30 meters away will see what you do about it and they both will have a
chat about it on their cell phones. What will they say ?
[ July 12, 2002, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: grey ]
S. Toppholzer July 12th, 2002, 09:11 AM

Here are two situations I got into and got out without being hurt. I don't know if this info could be of help for anyone of you
but here it is:
1.) When I was a teenager I walked my dog at night in a medium sized Austrian city. My dog was a dachshund so of no good
use for defense :rolleyes:
I was on the main square of the xity when a gang of juveniles looking for troubles surrounded me. The joungest of the group
stepped forward and made silly remarks about my dog. I didn't reply and walked straight away from him in the hope the guys
would just let me pass. They didn't. the youngster became bolder and I just told him that I am looking for no troubles and he
should quit that. He became overly self confident and pulled out some chain with a weight on its end hreatening to hit me.
Next thing I did I was rushing towards him, grab the chain just above his hand, let it swing around my wrist and rip it out of his
hand. Then I simply took him by his neck and said: "OK. That's about it. I think we'll better go see the police." Still having
him at the neck I dragged him towards his astonished colleaugues who (now to my astonishment) opened their ranks and let
me pass. I didn't find a cop in my vicinity and after I've seen that the group was gone I just kicked him away.
2.) I once got jailed for stealing a motorbike in Southern Spain. The prison cell I was assigned to was huge: About 40 bunk
beds - almost all occupied with Moroccans and Spaniards jailed for drug crimes.
The horrible thing happening was that inmates were being raped at the toilet every night. This fact alone made me extremely
scared. I actually got so intimitaded that whenever some of these guys asked me for a cigarette I handed one over. This went
alnog for about 3 days when these bastards weren't satisfied with an occassional cigarette but demanded a whole pack. This
was the point when I simply said "no". The same evening, after the wards have already closed the cell door I happened to
overhear three of the nastiest guys to agree that this night would be my turn to have fun at the toilet.
I felt like the infamous rabbit watching a snake. When I finally relized that they were heading over to my bunk I jumped up,
grabbed the big table, overtuned it, screamed like a madman, took a chair, smashed it to pieces on the cell door and made
as much nois as I knew how. The guys were so disturbed by these actions that they didn't even try to subdue me. Soon the
wards came, released me of the cell an I told them what I knew. For my own safety they put me in solitary lockup and I felt I
was being blessed for this. I managed to remain there until my trial was due and two days later I was released from prison.
nbk2000 July 12th, 2002, 11:02 AM

Typical punk behavior. Brave in a group, but take out the leader and they all turn into bitches.
Those turks are well known sodomites. Lucky you escaped with your "virginity" intact!
The problem with both of these situations is your initial attempts at being civil. Instead of showing courtesy, it shows
weakness.
Remenber, you're dealing with barbarians. No matter that they speak the same language or wear the same clothes as you,
you're dealing with people who'd be comfortable in a "Conan the Barbarian" setting. Treat them as Conan would, first ignore
them and if they persist then violence. Don't acknowledge them unless it's with your guns (fists or literally).
Don't go off on the nuns (though be wary anyways), but some hoodie walks up to you at 2AM on a deserted street...ATTACK!
You'll have either pre-empted his attack, or taught him the value of owning a watch! HAHAHA!
Would a meat hook through the leg/arm be considered attempted murder? I know that, in turkish law, stabbings below the
waist aren't murder, only assualt.
A thick stick with a long screw in the end, with the head cut off and filed needle sharp, can be used to pick up cans for
recycling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Carry around a plastic bag with some cans in it and you can
carry a spear in public without arousing peoples fear. Hide in plain sight. :)
Better yet, be pro-active and deter hoodie presence in areas where you frequently travel. Stink-um the places they like to
hang out (bags of shit and piss work well), black out the lights (pitch black) so they'll have to sit in the dark all the time, set
up some bug hives, or something.
Late night explosions on random nights will bring a constant police presence and hoodies will get the blame. Spray paint some
gang graffiti from a rival gang on their turf and cross it out yourself. Instigate a gang war. Hopefully the garbage will kill each
other. Place a cheap scale, couple dozen baggies, and a half kilo of "cut" in a paper sack where they hang out. Anonymous
phone call to the police about the "drug dealing" going on... :D
Be creative. Get Machavillian on them.
Chade October 17th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Seems to me there's three main places you could get attacked, and have to defend yourself. At home (burglary), near your
home, or far away from your home.
For me, the most troublesome of these three would be getting attacked near your home. You really, really don't want these
guys knowing where you live, as you'll have endless trouble, unless you take them out of circulation permanently.
Step 1 - Don't even be where the trouble is.

Your number one way of avoiding trouble is to be, well, a bit of a wuss. If you go out in your neighbourhood, go in the
daytime, stay around people, keep in the open where you can see trouble coming, and generally follow all the self defence
advice the police give you, which is pretty good at helping you not to be where the trouble is. If you travel, fuck the
environment and use a car. Drive from your garage. This means trouble won't hit you near your home. Move to a nice
neighbourhood. Don't walk through the rougher areas. And as NBK always says, 'know your environment'.
A few years back I was often in the situation of having to walk back from a friends house late at night. The first thing I did to
minimise the risk was to wait until three or four in the morning, on the assumption that even the crackheads would be going
'God, is that the time?' Also the streets were so empty that anyone walking around that time was automatically someone to be
avoided. (Case in point, me.)
The other thing was that my house backed onto a forest. On a moonless night, I'd walk back through the forest. Very dark,
and tricky to manage, but I doubt any muggers were sitting about waiting for someone in those woods. (Also quite fun,
although I got the fright of my life once when I almost ran into a badger. Those fuckers are scary at three feet when they're
riled.) I'm not sure I'd advise this, but I've excellent night vision, and it allows me to use it to my advantage.
Most of this stuff clearly isn't possible for everyone. For example, I can't drive at the moment, and public transport is a pretty
common situation in which to get mugged. I think a study on where people get mugged would prove very interesting. Does
anyone know of such a study? It could incorporate weighting of how many people tend to walk alone in any given environment
(park, alley, multi-storey car park), and lighting conditions All you can do is reduce your odds of getting selected as a victim.
Step 2 - Reducing your odds of getting selected as a victim.

So you've had to go where the trouble is. Maybe you can't drive, or live in a crappy neighbourhood, or have to travel in and out
late at night. My main method of avoiding trouble has traditionally been my reputation, but that does me no good against a
mugger who doesn't know me from Adam.
Present a poor target. Look like it would be PETTY (tm-NBK2000) to attack you. Look moderately poor, moderately tough, and
very unstable. Extremes of most types tend to attract trouble.
Look rich, get mugged. Look scruffy as hell, and some local skinheads will likely kick hell out of you for no better reason. Just
wear cheap clothes. Slightly worn jeans, cheap trainers, cheap t-shirt, cheap coat or jacket in the cold. (Do I have to say avoid
local gang colours? :) )
Same goes for toughness. Lok weak and get mugged. Look like Bruce lee, and someone will want to test their mettle against
you. I know a guy who's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and (in addition) is as tough as a coffin nail. Once, coming back from the
class he taught, someone ran up to him, punched him in the head, and ran off. Now there's fuck all you can do about that,
and we strongly suspected it was a bet. (The guy didn't hang around, so we know it wasn't a suicide attempt)
Look able, aware of your surroundings, but not like you're looking for a fight. Apparently people are less likely to try
something on with someone who has good bearing*. This is just according to my Aikido instructor. (side note: No, I don't know
Aikido, I pretty much suck at it as I can almost never make it to the classes)
And the one extreme that's not likely to get you attacked, in general, is looking unstable. When I'm walking alone at night, I
deliberately develop nervous twitches. People don't want to tangle with someone who's twitchy. They get scared of them doing
something irrational. I also periodically chuckle to myself. Short, clipped bursts of chuckling, like you just can't hold it in. I'm
sure you could try other things. Maybe quoting the bible. There's a quote from a comedian called Simon Munnery which goes,
'Everyone's scared of nutters, but even nutters are scared of religious nutters.' Avoid things like quiet mumbling, which just
makes you sound more passive, and a target for someone who just wants someone to beat up. Also seeming unstable is
something you can turn on or off in an instant, for example if you judge that it's only going to escalate a situation. You can
also start it when someone suspicious (or just someone) comes into view. After all, if you have a choice, you don't want to be
personaly interacting with your mugger.
Step 3 - Personally interacting with your mugger.

It's almost always possible to stay a good distance from anyone suspicious. (that's anyone but babies and Nuns. And as was
said, watch those Nuns) I've avoided a fight when I saw a group of people three hundred feet away. I started walking just to
avoid them, just in case. Around a corner, and up the road, I noticed someone walking behind me. I crossed the road. He
crossed the road. Red Flag. I crossed back. He crossed back. Fuck. I ran, and noticed his 'Posse' of about fifteen kids behind
him. (I was about fifteen at the time, he was a little older, his motley crew a little younger.) The head start let me escape,
although there was no real reason to consider them hostile when I stated moving. On a side note, the dumb fuck crossed the
road the second time. That did nothing but give me more warning.
Anyway, Cops stay a safe distance from anyone suspect, why shouldn't we?
If someone approaches you, I just stay away. If they're harmless, they know all you've done is avoid them, which is not all
that rude, and anyway, didn't your mum tell you not to talk to strangers? If they continue, then they're probably hostile.
There's a slight chance you've aggravated them a little, but you've been alerted earlier, which gives more time for you to get
on top of your adrenaline and react how you want to. You should be able to manage to try the notion of keeping your
distance, and not piss them off enough to screw up your chances of talking your way out of trouble. So now the guy's almost
on you, and you've got to decide what to do.
Step 4 - Decide what to do

OK, so it's clearly silly to actually decide now. What I really mean is now is when you implement your pre-prepared plan. This
is, in a way, also Step 0, as it's the one thing you do now. Are you the sort of guy who could get away with doing what (In an
ideal world) I'd like to do to a mugger, and shoot them in the face? Are you going to run like fuck? Talk your way out of it?
Here's the kicker. If it's a group of guys, or someone who's likely to be around for a while in between prison visits, then you
can't leave them as a threat. They've marked you now, and if you leave them with a kicking, or a broken arm, or a BP party
popper in the face, you could find a molotov through your window next week. This is the problem, as you live near here! Even
if they don't find you, they'll clock you sooner or later, as it's your doorstep, and if you could avoid it, you'd not be in this
situation in the first place. Then it's time for their retribution, be it sooner or later.
Your options, as I see it are: Run

Appease the mugger (referred to from here as the 'victim')
Or put him where he can't make trouble anymore.
The last one is kind of appealing, but the only two ways I can think of would either involve getting him arrested for the rest of
his or your life, or shooting him, stabbing him, chopping him into little cubes, or otherwise rendering him, well, dead. If you
want him arrested, unless you can call in the cops remarkably quickly, you have to appease him, and get the cops to go
around later. If you wanted to kill him, well, it's on your doorstep (bad) so I personally wouldn't want to risk it.
So, we're left with appeasing him or running. Decide if you're up to running now. If that's your plan, stick to it. I wouldn't run
home, but to the nearest source of help. Police station ideally, but anything in a pinch. Train, a lot. This is your plan, so adopt
it whole heartedly. Do sprint training, not endurance training. Your aim is to outrun him, or as plan B, just reach help. You'll
find help quicker yelling your head off.
If running and screaming like a little girl isn't your style, you'll have to appease the victim. Either talk your way out of it, if you
can, or give him what he thinks he wants. I'd hand over the fake wallet I carry around. I'd consider putting in a genuine tenner
or something, as well as a couple of things to make it look realistic. If he asks for a phone, now this is what I'm looking at, at
the moment. Making a phone (working or not) that contains an electronic device you can use to trace it. I have no idea how
feasible this would be, but it's the only way I can see to 'win'. A third thing they often do is walk you to a cashpoint at knife or
gun point, and make you take out all your money. Most cashpoints have a daily limit, but beware of getting jumped before
midnight. It'd really wrankle to get your account drained twice. Once before, and once after midnight. Little you can do about
that last one, except not keep a card, or sufficient money in that account. Make sure you don't have anything on you you
don't want to lose. When he's taking your stuff is probably the point where you have to remind yourself that fighting him would
leave him coming after you which is the reverse of the ideal scenario.
Step 5 - The ideal scenario

You've been robbed. Probably beaten up too. If you get a kicking, I'd fight back a little, but not go all out. If they took the
phone, you just need to make it look good. If you think they're really out to kill you, run or do your best to defend yourself. If
you hand over your stuff, or dump it on the hoof, they'll probably tire of the chase.
In the ideal scenario, they take their loot home, to a cache, or to a mates house. If the tracking device works and isn't too far
away, you now know their address, or at least somewhere they visit. Now they're in the situation of having someone near their
home knowing where they live, and being able to make their lives a misery. Preferably a short misery.**
How often do you get to enjoy knowing the address of someone who's fucked you over, and has no known connection to you
for the purpose of a police investigation? Take your tenner back off the corpse.
Ok, that's the awkward situation of getting mugged or attacked close to home. I'm a good 6 months work off getting a
tracking device that'd work even over short ranges, so as a plan, that's not operable yet. On to the next scenario...
Getting attacked at home.

Someone here would probably know more than me, but does a burglar let his friends know where to reach him in case of
emergencies? 'Oh, if you don't hear from me by 6, I'm out robbing Chades house. Be sure and have the cops come looking
for me there...'
I'm betting no. Ideally, anyone breaking into my house would disappear. 'No officer, I'm afraid I've not seen a 6' 2" ex con
with a string of crimes on his rap sheet lately. I'm sure you'll be dedicating all your efforts to finding him though.'
Again, I'm a way off being able to carry this out. I lack the appropriate, erm, disposal methods at present. Not enough to
dispose of the body, in my book. Got to dispose of it fast (after he stops twitching and isn't much fun anymore) and eliminate
as much evidence as possible. Preferably before the morning, which could be tricky. (anyway, that's a whole other thread)
And finally...
Getting attacked far from home.
This differs from the near home attack, as you probably won't have to worry about them finding your place. Also a corpse with
a bog standard kitchen knife in the chest is not the easiest crime to solve with no link to the killer. Groups present problems,
as was mentioned in other posts. One scumbag turns up dead, and the police find an excuse, or a scapegoat (which is likely
two scumbags off the street rather than one), but a group of corpses can't really be ignored. Exotic wepons make you easier to
trace, but balance that against being alive in a fight like that. I'd follow steps two and three as before, but worry less about
staying away from certain areas than I would otherwise. I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to appease anyone. If someone
mugged me, whatever the situation, I'd be about as pissed off as I get. Here I'd go for the attack as soon as I knew the
situation was heading that way.
Running or appeasing still work, but there's a chance of a straight conflict not fucking up your life. As mad as I'd be, I'd take
the chance and fight.
I was discussing with a friend of mine what would happen if I was mugged, and I talked about the personal defence weapons
that one might use. (Homemade pepper spray described in another thread, and a knife***) She was concerned that using
these weapons would escalate a situation. Personally, if someone mugs me, I'm doing my best to kill them if I can get away
with it. They've fucked with me big time, and they'll live to regret it (for a short while). Anyway, I didn't use those words, but
she then asked if I'd have the same reaction if one of my friends was with me. (presumably concerned that I didn't escalate a
situation she was in) I answered no, which seemed to satisfy her. I guess she assumed that meant I'd be less likely to act
aggressively in that case.
Just for the record, and I'm getting on my soapbox a bit here, but I don't think anyone could do anything more to piss me off
than attack one of my friends. I wouldn't react the same way cause I'd be trying out NBKs trick of making a meal out of him
with my teeth. And that's to say the least. I'd do my best to get my friends to run while I distracted the attacker(s). As a
certain quote goes 'I'm gonna kill them all. That oughta distract them.' And I'd make it hurt.
Now that my (rather lengthy) discorse has passed to the final, and interesting point when you can actually fight attackers, I will
make one more point. I think someone mentioned a wide toothy grin. When it all kicks off, start by leading them in. Go to
hand over your wallet, phone, raise your hands or whatever. Then smile, as if you've seen something wonderful (or
alternatively something nasty behind them to get them to turn if they're actually that stupid) And then whale in however you
choose, with whatever weapons you choose, and laugh your head off, like you're having the time of your life. Especially when
you're tearing them open. See how many stick around then.
Might take someone unbalanced to carry that off, but I daresay a select few could manage it.
* Bearing: How you carry yourself. Straight spine, shoulders relaxed and slightly back, not slouching.
**Oh yes, finding someone's address. There's other ways to do it of course. My Dads car got stolen once. He'd taken out the
fuse for the fuel pump, like he does every night, so it was sat at the end of the road. :D Anyway, The Police came around, and
happened to mention the name of the guy who did it. I don't think they meant to.
In the UK, every library keeps an electroral register behind the counter, free to view if you ask for it. (free version of 192.com)
He went and got the punks address.
He still annoys the guy from time to time. Tearing up his lawn, dumping trash out front of his house, etc. It's been ten years,
and he's moved away, but if he's ever in the area, he still pays a visit, and the silly sod still lives there.
*** Ah, my knife. It's a lovely thing. A folding knife, but I've used it so much that I can snap it open with a flick of my wrist. It
has two blades which open out in opposite directions so when you snap it out, it's a two bladed knife that looks remarkably
like a batarang. All black, and looks very cool when you snap it open. Not legal, but pretty. Obviously, I only keep it at home
to look at it. BTW, a folding knife is legal to carry in the UK, as long as (quotes from offensive weapons act) The sharpened
part of the cutting edge of the blade does not exceed beyond three inches. I take this to mean if you have a four inch blade
but grind down the bottom inch to a smooth (non-cutting) surface, it's legal. I can see I may have to argue that one in a
courtroom. But it is the only weapon we're allowed. That's why swiss army knives aren't illegal yet.
knowledgehungry October 17th, 2003, 08:52 AM

In general i carry a folding knife (5 inches). I have practiced opening it with one hand quickly. I also occasio9nally carry a
hunting knife in my boot... My steel toe boots;). Steel toe boots are an excellent way to make sure someone doesnt get up to
fuck with you when you walk away. I've seen a guys face turned to bloody goo by some skinhead he shouldnt have fucked
with. Dude lay facefirst in the dirt for 10 minutes with out moving.
Anthony October 18th, 2003, 07:38 AM
Worth noting that you may carry a folding pocket knife with a blade <3", but it must NOT be lockable. So basically you're not
permitted to have a knife with safety features that can prevent you from cutting yourself in normal use...
Flake2m October 18th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Intresting note: Pre September 11 I walked onto a plane with a pocket knife, security didn't seem to care at all.
A local cop came to our school to give us a talk about being streetwise, He gave us five golden rules which will avoid about
99% of the sex assaults and muggings that occur.
In no particular order;
1. Don't stop;
If some person asks you what the time is/for 50c etc dont even break stride.
2. Dont take shortcuts;
Side alleys and backstreet are where most assaults take place. If you go down these as a shortcut then you could be in
someones territory which means you are a target.
3. Dont make eye contact
Making eye contact is all thats needing for someone to oick a fight
4. Dont react;
If your walking along and someone wolf whistles, and makes a smart remark if you react then thats telling them that you are
a possible target.
5. Know the area your in;
Know where bus stops, phone boths are and the general latout of the area your in. If you dont then be with someone that
does, taking a wrong turn can mean the difference between safety and a body bag.
Normally I dont listen to police, however this cop is respected by my peers because he actually has half a clue about the youth
of today. the rules he told us also make sense.
knowledgehungry October 18th, 2003, 10:03 AM

In the US your allowed to carry a folding knife if the balde is roughly the length of across your palm, yes mine does exceed
that, however I dont really care. My main problem is I have a rather aggressive personality, when people talk shit I respond in
kind. I've never had any problems when I'm out with my crew, 5 of us is enough to make 10 of them think twice about starting
shit. I'm always down for a rumble. If they have a piece its a different story... We almost got jumped by a guy with a gun
once, but I saw it in his pocket before he could get us away from the busy street we were on, he was trying to though.
Adept October 18th, 2003, 01:07 PM

With regards to regular Martial Arts training:
It does not hold to view your regular MA school with such disdain. Truthfully, most people who join a MA school do so only for
something to do on a wednesday night, or to get fit, or because their kids do it and it looks like fun.
But in any school you will find the hardcore killers, if you look hard enough and prove yourself to them. People who have
dedicated themselves to learning the most effective techniques to defend themselves in any given situation. People who are
willing to teach you these same skills.
For example, one of my instructors often sets a scene, gives us an environment, and asks us to react. One time we measured
out a toilet block, and asked our students to react to a junkie threatening them with a syringe. After they do their thing, we
showed them any thing they did wrong, and how they could have prevented it, and done better. We try and make everything
we learn for the purpose of self defence, actually applicable in the real world.
Obviously, this isnt going to wash with the larger customer market required to support the club financially. These people are
given watered down versions, more to make them feel good and improve self esteem than really give them a fighting chance
in combat. Once they prove they have the dedication and desire to learn for what we would call the right reasons, we teach
them. The same holds true for almost any martial arts school of any kind.
With regards to actual street situations;
Most actual street shmucks are easy to spot, at least here in Oz. They hang out in groups, tend to be of an ethnic
background, but not always, and all seem to have the same dress code. To be honest, you should be able to tell when a
person approaches you with an agenda.
I refuse to interact. If you dont interact with them, it tends to dissuade them from interacting with you.
If interaction is inevitable, then I try every trick in the book to get out of it. As Sun Tzu said, winning 100 battles out of 100 is
not a perfect record. Never having to fight at all is.
If I cannot run, and I cannot de-fuse the situation, and combat is inevitable, then as advocated, I take the initative and I
strike first. I strike initially for the crucial areas. A shot to the nuts will cripple most males and is easy to execute, a strike to
the eyes is going to stop anyone in their tracks. The sternum is one of the easiest bones in the body to break, and breaking it
effectively removes someone from the fight. Knees are extremely vulnerable, and thanks to my training, I can smash
baseball bats with my shins. Knee joints are easy meat.
Always remember, you are in it to live, not prove a point. Run as soon as you can, against multiple assailants all it takes is
one mistake, or one lucky hit, and you are down and out. Get out before that happens.
And remember - Simple things work. If it is hard to learn, and tricky to execute, then chances are you wont be able to use it.
Learn things you can ues. The best weapon available to you, the only one they cant ban, is your body. Learn to use it.
tmp November 30th, 2003, 02:19 AM

Most states in the United States will allow people to carry a gun with a permit.
Unfortunately, I live one the few that doesn't. I defended myself with a handgun
one night outside my residence from a couple of crackheads. The police kicked
in my door, confiscated all my guns(I never got them back), and a judge threw
my ass in jail for it. I've been robbed several times before. After that incident,
being fucked over by robbers, then by the judicial system, I made a couple of
important decisions in my life.
1) Politicians who favor gun control should never be elected or if already

elected, thrown out of office. Furthermore, any politician who passes a goddam
gun control law against ordinary people should be charged, convicted, and
EXECUTED for treason.
2) Anyone who attacks me in the future, will treated as attempting to kill

me. Therefore, I will do anything and everything to kill the son of a bitch !
One less asshole in the world !
If this sounds bitter and extreme, it is ! I'm tired of the violent criminals and
the asshole lawyers/politicians who excuse their behavior towards the rest of us !
Reply to ossassin: What state do you live in ? I live in Maryland where permits are
NOT issued to ordinary people - Only the wealthy and politically connected are allowed(besides the cops).
Maryland penalties: Misdemeanor - 3 Years/$2500 fine for a first offense,
mandatory 1 year for subsequent offenses. This law applies to any form of
open carry, concealed carry, or wearing a handgun.
BTW, my door was kicked in AND a fucking asshole gun-hating judge sent me to jail !
ossassin November 30th, 2003, 01:08 PM

tmp, anyone 18 or older may possess a handgun, as long as it is easily visible. You only need a permit to carry a concealed
weapon. Also, if you violate this, they wouldn't raid your house; they would simply fine you. Gun laws or a hobby of mine. :)
Also, in response to the earlier post about knife regulations, I would like to say that I carry a KABAR combat knife with a 7 1/2
inch blade, and it's perfectly legal. The only restriction on knives that I know of is that minors cannot buy knives in the bowie
knife category.
tmp December 2nd, 2003, 03:41 AM

ossassin, go to this link:
www.packing.org (http://www.packing.org)
for comprehensive state by state laws on carrying guns.
Not all states, including Maryland, allow open carry. In some states
carrying a gun is outright prohibited. And the worst of them will
imprison the offender with a felony conviction.
ossassin December 7th, 2003, 10:30 PM

I live in the Midwest where no one cares about that sort of thing. The state laws basically allow anything. It's the federal laws
that are the problem. I was actually referring to the federal laws, which is what I thought you meant.
tmp December 8th, 2003, 07:48 PM

Ossassin, if I seem negative it's because of my personal experience. You're right !
Federal laws don't regulate carrying of firearms at the state level. Ironically, some
states absolutely prohibit concealed carry and don't even regulate open carry.
And then there are the states that are the other way around. Crazy, isn't it ?
I like the model that Vermont, and now Alaska uses - if you can own it, you can
carry it. I believe Vermont has a mandatory 15 year sentence for anyone using
a firearm to commit a violent felony. This is on top of whatever punishment is
handed down for the original crime. This is the way is should be. Punish those who
commit crimes with guns - not us for defending our lives or exercising our rights.
nbk2000 December 9th, 2003, 01:47 PM

There's unintended consequences for "Get Tough" laws.
For instance, I'm currently writing an article for the PDF about swords and spears as weapons for criminals.
Yes, thanks to mandatory sentences for gun use by talk-tough politicos, you too can now have your arms whacked off or foot
long blades ran through your guts by a violent criminal that won't get more than a few years for violent assault because he
didn't use a gun, just a whole lot of steel, to do the damage.
But that's OK because it's not a gun. ;) :p
No 15 year minimum to worry about when you run 'em through and watch their eyes bug out like prawns! :D
Which would you prefer? A bullet through the brain or a foot of razor sharp steel going through your intestines? :eek:
All in favor of the bullet say "Aye".
Aye!
xyz December 11th, 2003, 04:24 AM

Have you thought about crossbows or pistol crossbows?
tmp December 12th, 2003, 12:25 AM

A bullet is quicker than an arrow or a sword. Of course the felons could simply cut
the barrel off a long gun to avoid those pesky state police background checks that
are used for handguns. The bad guys don't care about the laws anyway.
The instant criminal record check doesn't always work either. My chances of
survival are better with a 9mm then a sawed-off 12 gauge !
NBK2000, back in February 2001, 2 murderers in Baltimore, Maryland were

acquitted by so-called juries of their peers. Neither of these assholes used
a gun. One killed a Baltimore City cop by ramming him with a truck. The other
killed a University Of Maryland Dental School student with a knife after the student
pursued the asshole for snatching a fellow student's purse. You talked about these
assholes getting less time for not using a gun but they were outright acquitted.
Maybe I'm a racist, but do you think the acquittals came because both
defendants and the juries that heard their cases were all niggers ?
It seems that, in Baltimore, it really isn't a murder unless a gun is used.
jackhammer December 24th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Finally,a subject I really am an expert in! Being chemical hobbiest on a forum of chemical experts can be quite dangerous for
a fragile ego, but combat (weapons, martial arts, self-defense, etc,) is my life. However, because I have studied these things
for so long to reduce it to a single post would be impossible. For those interested in what training would be best for self-
defense, I would say a combination of muay thai, jujitsu, and either eagle claw, white crane, white eyebrow, or tiger claw
wushu. Basically, the skills needed for combat are grappling, striking, kicking, weapon, joint manipulation, sealing of the
breath and/or blood, and nerve striking techniques. Again, because it is impossible to put anything useful in a single post, I
was wondering if anyone would be interested in my compiling/writing a combat instructional manual, full of various techniques,
anatomical diagrams, information on styles, etc. If so, I would be more than happy in putting together a pdf.
Pressuretest December 30th, 2003, 10:01 PM

Unfortunately here in the UK with our harsh gun laws and stiff jail terms for carrying such things as knives and cs gas, its a
problem for people to feel safe whilst walking the streets in some areas.
I teach self defence and i am often asked about improvised self defence weapons. Heres a few items i suggest carrying so as
to stay within UK law.
1. Maglite 6DD torch, quality to use as a baton whilst also useful for shining in eyes in the lead up to a fight.
2. Pocket can of De-Icer, a faceful of this will deter most people and give you time to run.
3. Sharpened metal comb, good for slashing attacks.
4. Tighly rolled magazine or newspaper, thrust into soft body areas.
5. Keychains with large bunch of keys, use as a flail to the facial area.
6. Sharpened pencil or pen, used as a dagger.
I have got to agree with the posts stating that traditional martial arts are not a lot of use in self defence. They are good as a
confidence booster and help to keep you fit, but theres too much punching fresh air in most of them and not enough hard
sparring.
Mixed martial arts is the only way to go in my opinion, with Brasilian jui-jitsu covering ground fighting, Boxing and Muay Thai
addressing the striking areas, and some wrestling helping with throws and clinchs.
Rhadon January 3rd, 2004, 12:13 PM

Jackhammer: If you have the time to do it, go for it! I don't know how well this subject has already been covered in the
literature, but remember, scanning a book or parts of it will take considerably less time than writing something of your own :).
Pressuretest: Your post has some good points. What do you think about a mere combination of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay
Thai? Will they suffice or will they leave weaknesses in certain areas? If so, can you tell me which? I'm not an expert in mixed
martial arts, but I thought that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would cover everything you need for your ground game and Muay Thai would
cover striking sufficiently. And although Muay Thai does not teach you as much about the clinch as wrestling, isn't it enough for
a street fight? On the street, striking is by far more important than the clinch anyway IMO, or is this a fallacy?
Pressuretest January 3rd, 2004, 06:13 PM

A combination of BJJ and Muay Thai is a lethal combination which as rightly said covers both the ground game and the stand
up game. But wrestling with its clinchwork and throws is an important part of street/bar fights.
Usually most fights end up on the floor and the guy with the strongest postion is the one on top. Now the reason most of
these fights end up on the floor is that a lot people close the distance and grab hold of the other guy and the fight
degenerates into a wrestling match with playground headlocks, headbutts and all those sort of things being attempted.
If you had a good basis in wrestling it would be relatively easy to throw your opponent onto the floor and gain the top position.
From where you could proceed to ground and pound him or give him a quick lesson in BJJ through leglocks, armbars, chokes
or what ever submission takes your fancy.
Streetfights where you have space in which to move about are where Muay Thai comes into its own, with a few punishing leg
kicks your opponent is either on the floor or hobbling slowly about. Then its a matter of taking him apart with punchs, elbow
strikes and kicks or even with the neck clinch and some hard knees to the head.
Weatern boxing is also useful as it emphasizes body and head movement which when coupled with good footwork enables you
to hit and not be hit. Muay Thai is more rigid in its style and is good when attacking in a stong dominant manner but loses out
to boxing when there are mutltiple attackers due to the good movement and evasive skills of the boxer.
So really you need the groundwork of BJJ, the clinchs and throws of wrestling and the striking and movement of both Muay
Thai and Western boxing.
At my gym we run a professional MMA team and we train in as many areas as we can with Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling - both
freestyle and Greco Roman, and BJJ. But we will take and learn as our own any skill from any martial art if its useful in a real
combat setting.
We also train weights and cardio on a regular basis as fitness and strength are also very important in any struggle. It doesnt
matter if you are the worlds best at all of the above Martial Arts if you run out of breath after a few minutes struggling with a
strong oppoent you are finished.
And i have to add that any training for combat is better than none, even if its a self defence class as it will help people react
and think, rather than freeze as most do when threatened or attacked.
If you fight against the odds there is a chance of victory, but if you don't fight there is no chance.
I hope that has answered the points Rhadon raised.
Rhadon January 3rd, 2004, 06:42 PM

Yes, it did. Your post was an interesting read, thanks for taking your time.
bigshoe January 19th, 2004, 08:47 AM

This whole self defence forum is quite disturbing,
You all talk about the use of hand guns, knives, spays and everything in between.
Alot of you have given the idea that attacking the oppenent is the right thing to do if they have given the suggustion of
robbing you or inflicting personal pain (to you or others),
That is all bullshit! I have studying karate for three years, and NO i dont think of my self as some strong ass kicking rambo,
and YES I would like to kick the crap out of those wanna be homeboys.
BUT! What you all DONT realise is that trying to engage combat with anyone is the WORST THING THAT YOU CAN DO!!
To begin with I would like to say to most of you who took time to type up those storys of beating some guy out in the street
about WHAT YOU WHOULD DO in that situation is all just a pile of crap:-
1)If you guys have not figured out already is that EVERYTHING NEVER GOES TO PLAN then you can kiss your ass good bye no
matter how much training you have in anything.
2)WEAPONS- are the WORST thing you can use in a fight, besides the conclusion that u could get thrown in jail or worst kill
someone (and if you think you wouldnt care you are obviouslly going hide it, have no idea or are ALOT WORST THEN THEM).
But more importantally weapons NEVER show up at the right time and when they do you will find only focus is applied to the
limb holding the weapon which gives a MASSIVE DISADVANTAGE if you are the welder. But more importantally summoning the
psychological power to use a weapon is the hardest (and if you find you can do it with ease on a living breathing human-being
than i think you should stop attacking your furture self because in a few years time YOU WILL BE HIM!)
3) These "what I would do" storys are all posion, if you lot think like this than you are all in a very dangerous state of mind to
use combat effectivally.
Ok so know you are thinking "yer sum of dat dribble sounds right, but wat am i suppose to do know?" well follow this list and
you cant go wrong! :-
1) Be fit! If you need to get into a fight or better still get away then you will thank God u were (also has other obvious
advantages as in health).
2) GET RID OF THOSE WEAPONS!:- Need I say more?
3) Destory the attacker Psychologically if confronted:- Remind him that what he is doing is very dumb in a cool collected voice.
Tell him that there is better things to do than robbing people. This is the BEST advantage because if he continues he is not
going to expect the guy that tryed to help him in a positive way to poke him in the eyes and lift him of the ground with his
knee (hurts thinking about it, ouch!) then to run like hell.
If he/she is a junkie/drunk remind them in a simple and quick sentence that there is some money under that rock over there
and point them away from you.
4)Get your hands on a book called "the SAS self-defence handbook" by our good friend John "Lofty" Wiseman. Half the book
is the Psychological side the other some good practical techniques (this isn't an ad, I think that guy comes out with some
pretty good books)
Well thats all I really have to say.

Of course there are the obvious other things I didnt mention as some ppl fielded, like looking confident and not making
eyecontact. But I just wanted to get some of you thinking straight because most of the stuff I just read was all about "getting
even" through fairly horrific methods.
Remember that we are all human beings and the last resort is violence.
But most importantally its not what you say you will do before a fight, it is what you do after it (or after not doing it)
P.S. if you can't control you own rage you can forget controlling a fight, and if you can and let it run wild then YOU are the crazy
one!
kingspaz January 19th, 2004, 02:20 PM

'Remember that we are all human beings and the last resort is violence.'
answer me this: why has violence been resorted to so often in histroy? because we are all stupid human beings who like to kill
each other? no, of course not. the answer is because violence solves all disputes no matter how great or small the losses/
injuries incurred. survival of the fittest.
as for books, i'd have to recommend the US marines close combat manual available on the ftp and possibly still on the web.
bigshoe January 19th, 2004, 09:02 PM
I know what you are trying to say. But in all in all, if you contiue to look at life in a lessend view then what is the point off
living?
I am not trying to make a debate about this I am just trying to tell you what does work on the streets. because what you dont
know is that most robbers are already scared out of there wits and really dont what to rob you. The idea some one made
about leading them of is good. But if this punk is persistant teach them a lesson.
I dont go around thinking about the world as a garden of roses and yes i do understand that there is scum out there. But
please use you head before your fists
Of course I understand that you all will try to make somthing out of my methods. But these work to good effect, take it or
leave it.

Modern humans are the result of millions of years of inter-personal violence amoung our ancestors.
The weak and timid were killed or raped by the stronger and more violent, resulting in natural selection of violence as a
dominant trait for the species.
Accept this fact and work with your human nature, not against it.
Training is important. A man with a weapon, but no training, is likely more of a danger to himself than others.
But a man who is trained in his weapon, and psychologically willing to kill, has a huge advantage over a man who is
psychologically just as willing to kill but who is without a weapon.
Plenty of psychos out there are willing to kill you with a brick, bat, bottle, pipe, etc.
While you're trying to talk sense into some scumbag sub-humanoid, its brain is only concerned with how much crack it can buy
with the nice shoes it'll be pulling off your dead feet.
Didn't you learn anything in kindergarten?
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
Your words will have no effect on someone intent on robbing you, otherwise they wouldn't be robbing you in the first place, now
would they?
Street corner robbery isn't the crime of criminal geniuses, rather the low-browed retards of the criminal class. If this retard had
enough sense that you're reminder of the penal code would have any affect on him, he wouldn't be robbing you for your
mobile and maxed out credit cards, eh? ;)
But, if you pull out 8" of razor-sharp disembowling steel, you'll see a very rapid change of heart in all but the suicidally
inclined.
Even the most dumb-fuck crackhead can figure out that the crack isn't going to do him any good if he doesn't have any hands
or lungs to smoke it with, and he wouldn't have either of these if you puncture his lungs and lop off his hands with your blade.
Criminals do crimes because it's profitable for them (or at least they think it will be). When the profit of robbing you is radically
skewed towards death and dismemberment (on their part) when you (the "sheep") pull out your weapon, the crime is no
longer worth committing. :p
NBK's RTPB "Always have a weapon on you" is sound advice for urbanites. You do what you have to to survive. If your country
restricts certain weapons, find something that's not a weapon, but useable as one anyways.
Get creative. You're a member of an IMPROVISED WEAPONS FORUM!
IMPROVISE!
If you can outrun the problem, good for you. Others may not have that option. What if you're pushing the stroller with your
child in it when a member of the economically-underprivileged class approaches you and kindly asks you to donate your wallet
and mobile to his charity of choice?
Hand it over? Depends. Might not do you any good, anyways. But, if you pull out your wallet and have a push dagger in the
same hand to give it to him...STABSTABSTAB!!!
Cretin gets ventilated, you take off with junior in your arms, and the scumbag doesn't have the ability to chase you since
you've punctured his neck numerous times, making breathing rather difficult on his part. :D
Group of scum? Tactics dictate your choice. In all cases, your weapon stays hidden until it's time to use it, then it's pulled out
and used lightning fast before they can react to it.
You MUST approach any situation involving a group of attackers as being life-or-death. The group mentality enables killing
through diffusion of responsibility and peer pressure. The ONLY way to deal with such an event is to unleash your inner
Hannibal and just slaughter the first person you get your hands on. If you make it messy and noisy enough, it'll put fright into
the others long enough for you to escape.
Trying to talk your way out of the situation will just escalate it against you because you'll show how weak you really are (the
powerful don't negotiate, they dictate), and weakness invites attack, since prey is weaker than the predator.
This is Natures law.
But if the prey turns out to be an even more dangerous predator, the pack will scatter. Imagine a pack of hyenas attacking a
Lion that they mistook for a gazelle. The Lion is going to tear the first hyena or two to shreds! Think the others are going to
hang around for their turn? Hell NO!
Bigshoe, your pacifistic attitude will likely result in your "big shoe" being stuffed into your "small hole". ;)
Think like a predator, not like prey.

jelly January 21st, 2004, 11:32 PM

Nightstalker is right with StabStabStab as the "ultima ratio", if you are in a very dangerous situation.
But do you want to kill all the "What are you looking at!" fuckers/thugs in a pub and then offer your
ass in a jail for many years?
If you want to read books about "real" streetfighting, grab the stuff written by Geoff Thompson
(e.g. "Dead Or Alive - The Choice Is Yours" and "Bouncer - Watch Your Back"
(he worked as a doorman and bouncer for many years) and Marc "Animal" Young
(his book "Cheap Shots, Ambushes And Other Lessons" is on the FTP" :)).
http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_real_self_defence.htm
Gsus January 22nd, 2004, 05:01 PM

I live in PEckham, London.
Apparently, 59% of the worlds biggest city's gun crime happens here.
I get the train to school and everynow and then i see dodgy people hanging about.
I usually go for the pyshcological nervous twitch kinda thing, (if i do this weird thing with either i eye i look like a pyscho) or
just cross the street.
If your stereotypical, i'm quite nerdy. I like to read and do loadsa shit with computers, but i also play basketball a bit and am
tall for my age.
I'm not what you would call strong, but i can chuck most of my mates hard at anything in the vicinity with ease. Use your
weight!
I'm also planning on making some nunchucks this weekend...any tips?
jackhammer January 22nd, 2004, 10:28 PM

I'm also planning on making some nunchucks this weekend...any tips?A little story before I answer your question. I went to
my first martial arts teacher when I was 5. My father asked, among other questions, what my teacher would do if approached
by a man with nunchucks. He replied, "stand back and wait for him to kill himself." Anyway, there are two ways you can do this.
The first is to spend a lot of time and money with rattan wood, ball bearings, a good chain, blah blah blah. Or, you can make
a perfectly acceptable pair of "dumbchucks" (called so because of the result when you end up hitting yourself with them) with
two apprx foot long regular plumbing type pipes, at the ends of which you secure a apprx foot long chain by cement or epoxy.
These things will literally split skulls. Make sure yours isn't one of them.
Crash January 22nd, 2004, 11:26 PM

I'd have to reccomend Krav Maga, I cant beileve it has'nt already been mentioned, it was put together from various fighting
styles under contract for the Israeli Army.
From; Krav Maga Inc. (http://www.kravmagainc.com/benefits.html)
Krav Maga is a very modern and innovative style of Self-Defense. This system has been continually refined and developed in
light of actual modern combat and Self-Defense experience. Practitioners of the style incorporate new lessons learned as to
improve the styles techniques as well as encouraging individual student creativity.
Krav Maga was developed for use in the street.

Therefore there are no rules. When an individual is attacked in the street there is no way to know how many opponents or
weapons you might encounter, therefore Krav Maga training is based on a system without rules. In an assault situation an
individual has the right to use whatever techniques necessary to defend themselves. For this reason there are no competitive
tournaments or katas in Krav Maga. The techniques practiced in the style must be in terms of actual defense situations. In
fact students of Krav Maga are taught the vulnerable points i.e. back of neck, temples, eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc. on the
human body and are encouraged to use this knowledge to fend off an attack."
You have to be 18 to take the classes in most states, but at least you dont have to join the army to get military training.
More info;
http://www.kravmaga.com
http://www.krav-maga.com
http://www.kravmagainc.com
As for weapons of self defense, I'd say stick to using legal weapons and fighting dirty, do you really want to risk everything
you do in your home related to E&W being exposed after you stick some scum with a needle, or shooting him/her with an
illegal firearm? Of course not. Buy some effective pepper spray, or a stun gun and sucker punch the hell out of him while hes
incapacitated.
And if hes got a gun and its pointed at you, unless you can remove a firearm, zero it at his ead, and pull the trigger before he
has a chance to move his index finger a few millimeters.Just give him your wallet. $40, and a $10 leather wallet arent worth a
bullet and media exposure if you ask me.
Bigfoot January 23rd, 2004, 03:43 PM

In my previous life, in the days before metal detectors at public school doors....
A handful of pricks used to pick on me in elementary. My 12th-grade understanding of science did me no good on a 5th grade
playground. But when I "let slip" to a classmate that I carried a pocketknife, and showed it to him, my fortunes in prison yard
improved greatly.
MORAL:When your intellect doesn't make 'em respect you, your weapon just might!
BTW, I never had to pull my blade in a "situation."
jackhammer January 23rd, 2004, 11:05 PM

Crash, have you actually taken Krav Maga? I actually studied with various top instructors, including Imi himself once, when
stationed in Israel. Though the system has been slightly modified on its trip here and to civilians, it was designed primarily for
threat against armed assault. At a basic level, it involves a redirection of an opponents attack, with a simultaneous strike.
Higher levels include application of things like the garrot or application of chemical soaked rag to the mouth, and how to press
near the neck just so, angling the neck and head so that the person aids in their own suffocation. The fact that it was
designed for military use does not necessarily mean it is great for street fighting. I'm not saying it won't work, because it has
a plether of great techniques, but I would not use it as a primary study of unarmed combat. If you wan't to learn about
pressure point fighting, look into chin na, sub level four kenpo, kyokushin karate, or something like that. I'm presently
studying with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, who excels in chin na.
Dave the Rave January 24th, 2004, 02:40 PM

The "commercial" Kravmaga isnt so good as the military kind, which includes some awesome tecnics to quickly kill, disarm,
take down and knock out people with no efforts. One time I saw an 45 kilos woman simply disarm and knockout an agressor
with, at least 120 kilos.
He came from behind her and, with an gun, ordered her to stop. The next thing he can remember is her foot at his adams
aplle and then the ligths on the cellar and his arm broke in 3 pieces... It was realy impressive, not even the black & whites can
trust that she made it.
There is an "oficial" KM site: www.kravmaga.com/inteactive/ with some cool videos, but I think tha an search through
www.bushido.com will give some better and/or underground sources.
About military combat tecnics, have ever any member, especialy the russian ones, rear about the "system" ? Its suposed to
be created by SPETZNAS or some other russian special force, as the ultimate combat tecnic, betther than aikido, KM, kempo or
jet kune do.
In fact, it may be an combination of all those tecnics, plus some special forces figth classes around the world. Ive done an
search trhough Google but nothing was find.
Any ideas ?
jackhammer January 24th, 2004, 04:05 PM

Dave, for the most part the military unarmed combat systems will never be as complete as traditional martial arts. They are
designed to be crash courses for elite units. While they do have plenty of killing techniques, the goal is more to get the soldier
into a "killing" frame of mind. For the most part, the only time soldiers use their hands is in the movies. The U.S. military is
constantly hiring outside help to develop programs (like S.C.A.R.S. or SAFTA), but these systems are not as thorough or as
complete as their makers would have you believe.
Zoth February 6th, 2004, 12:47 PM

Of course Systema is going to be billed as the mack by its own marketing department.
It looks pretty good to me; I like the emphasis on evasion and fluidity. I think it would take a long while to learn.
Whether it will stand the test of time I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised to see this art join the JKD "party" soon.
My advice: Don't do weird, flavor-of-the-month stuff for self defense. Do simple, tried-and-true stuff like Kali, Muay Thai and
Jujitsu. Even Karate, though reviled these days, can be really good if it's done with the proper violence and aggression.
Dave the Rave February 10th, 2004, 03:20 PM

In Mather of fact, Ive done KM some time ago, as well as Kung fu and JKD, but the idea of the systema, as an traditional yet
inovative way of combat give me a tease.
Anyway, I wont have the option to chose betwin the systema or karate, because there in no school at my Country that
teaches the systema.
Thanks for the advice, but what is Kali ???
jackhammer February 11th, 2004, 12:03 AM

Thanks for the advice, but what is Kali ???
Kali, Escrima, and Arnis are all Filipino martial arts which deal mainly with sticks and daggers. Some styles include unarmed
techniques, some don't. If you're looking into being a serious well-rounded fighter, they are worth trying, but if you want the
most effecient way to become good, I wouldn't spend my time with those styles.
Zoth February 12th, 2004, 12:47 AM

Kali, Escrima, and Arnis are all Filipino martial arts which deal mainly with sticks and daggers. Some styles include unarmed
techniques, some don't. If you're looking into being a serious well-rounded fighter, they are worth trying, but if you want the
most effecient way to become good, I wouldn't spend my time with those styles.
Actually, I must disagree with this. There's a common misconception that Kali deals almost exclusively with weapons, but it's
not true; the sticks and daggers are there as training devices as much as anything else. The techniques that the FMA teach
can be applied to weapons as well as to empty hand.
Since it's more important to learn weapon self-defense first, and since FMA weapons are quicker to learn than any other style,
I think they do have their priorities straight here. All styles of FMA can be applied to unarmed defense. I am not Captain
Kickass but I have a good number of years of experience with various Kali systems; the above is true for all of them.
As with any style an incompetent instructor is going to do more harm than good.
jackhammer February 15th, 2004, 12:55 AM
Actually, I must disagree with this. There's a common misconception that Kali deals almost exclusively with weapons, but it's
not true; the sticks and daggers are there as training devices as much as anything else. My first kali instructor, as well as not
knowing any english, knew almost as much about unarmed fighting. It simply was not in any of the systems he had learned.
There are a lot of asian countries that have been heavily influenced by traditional martial arts, but so sporadically and so
varyingly that the developed systems lacked any clear focus. Filipine martial arts developed in a very rough (at the time) part
of the world, and knives and sticks were plentiful and easily obtainable, as well as being more threatening than a fist. So
systems were generally influenced by brawls rather than a more chinese approach; e.g. watching animals fight or passsing
down movements in complex sequences. Because of this lack of martial identity, it makes it very hard for even the experts to
agree on the history and/or emphasis or even definitions associated with their styles. The techniques that the FMA teach can
be applied to weapons as well as to empty hand. Not always. Many stikes that may be incapacitating or even fatal with a knife
or stick may do much less damage without. But it's a sound enough principle (and one that Morihei Ueshiba believed in).
Since it's more important to learn weapon self-defense first, and since FMA weapons are quicker to learn than any other style,
I think they do have their priorities straight here. Why would you say weapon styles are easier? Adding a weapon often makes
your movements more complex. All styles of FMA can be applied to unarmed defense. I am not Captain Kickass but I have a
good number of years of experience with various Kali systems; the above is true for all of them.
As with any style an incompetent instructor is going to do more harm than good. Yes.
Zoth February 16th, 2004, 06:17 PM

Why would you say weapon styles are easier? Adding a weapon often makes your movements more complex.
I did not say that weapon styles are easier, I said that the way FMA styles teach weapons, the weapons are easier to pick up
than any other style I have seen with the exception of military combatives (which are often FMA derived anyway.)
The way the weapons are systematized with numbers makes them very quick and easy to learn. Coincidentally, the footwork is
numbered too with the same numbers per angle, which adds another layer of easiness.
You might be interested in a number of historical books by Mark V. Wiley about the martial culture of the Islands. There is
actually quite a bit known about the 'way it was.'
You say "Not always," but nothing is ever "always." You can apply the same block-and-counters to empty hand that you can to
sticks and knives. It's just oh so much more important to be quick and precise...
Oftentimes FMA instructors, especially the traditional people, hold a lot of stuff back until they know you real well. It may have
been that if you'd thrown a punch at your old instructor you'd have been on the ground faster than you could say "scat..."

I think that ad an weapon to the training increases the dificulty, but also increases the concentration on that specific move. My
kungfu style is one on the most prolixes in weapon kinds, one must learn at least 7 weapons per belt, but just because of this
diversification of moves the training becomes more intense and mind consentrator (sp ?) than an training only based on Katas
or kick moves.
Another point that must be taken is that when an military intructor teaches an move, he is only thinking on the lethal point of
view, so he discards almost all the non lethal moves. He also relly on the most simply yet mortal weapon moves which helps
to mantain the training more easily absorbed.
buzzd February 17th, 2004, 02:46 AM

What are you guys doing wrong?
I live in a town with an obnoxiously high murder rate. More than often, I am by myself. I personally know plenty of people who
have been severely beat, one of whom was put into a coma, airlifted, etc. When I do go out, it is at night. I have never, ever
been involved in a serious confrontation, and i'm out at least 4 times a week. Are you guys walking around with signs that say
'I'm weak, beat me up'? Whats going on? You mind your own business, they mind theirs. Of course people will ask/beg/
threaten for money; you tell them off, and keep moving. Why do you even have these problems?
tmp February 19th, 2004, 12:58 AM

Buzzrd, where do you live ? I think you've been lucky and that you may be
statistically overdue for bad encounter. Sometimes the scum can vary from
block to block. You never know. Panhandlers, even agressive panhandlers,
are usually just a pain in the ass. But on occasion, a psycopath crops up
who will hurt people for any reason - real or imagined. Be careful !
senom February 28th, 2004, 01:49 AM

another weapon that can be easily made/carried/accessed/used is your master card/visa/gift/NRA card to local store.
that lovely rugged plastic with a little coxing from a dremil tool or sandpaper can have quite an edge on it. (just make sure it's
not one you use often, casheers don't like that)
what's atractive to me is the fact that it's something that's always in your wallet, in your pocket. just slide the card into your
wallet (sharp edge in first) and it'll always be there. (another plus: i don't think police would rifle through your plastic...)
so when some punk asks for your wallet, the card's in the perfect position, just slip your thumb in and pull it out, then procede
to "deface" his face, neck, whatever looks good.
redbull September 12th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Wow, for explosives and Weapons people Im suprised Redbull's the only one wearing a
gun? Redbull's been wearing a pistol for 4 years now. Redbull lives in the US and has a
permitto carry a firearm. (They are only good in certain states, you can get them in
the majority of places but some states don't issue permits.) He carries his gun all the
time even in places like Washington D.C. where it's illegial. He's pulled it out twice
so far in street confrontations and both times the punk bitches that want to start
trouble run off after seeing the 9mm under the shirt. Redbull's never going to stop
carrying his piece, permits or not. He's NEVER been searched, ever, and the pistol
has been pretty noticable through the shirt. In the US the cops will approach you
and ask what your doing with a gun and then you tell them you have a permit and you
have to show it. It's an ID card with your picture and then they say ok, have a nice
day and walk off. Redbull's show it preemptively to cops when dealing with them
on an unrelated matter just so they dont get nervous if they find out about it.
But if Redbull lived in another country where carrying a pistol was illegial Redbull would
carry a gun anyway. If pistols are banned in your country and you cant even get a
black powder pistol; get one from someone in the US. Redbull would mail a black
powder pistol to anyone anywhere, dissasembled and with junk parts to confuse
customs. Making your own lead ball ammo and black powder makes the black powder
pistol a "sustainable" resource in bullshit countries that ban guns. English folks really
need to start getting American black powder pistols and fuck the police. If you're in
this forum you should be a criminal anyway ;) so in short, fuck the bullshit, carry a
handgun anyway, fire your first shot near them if you even have to shoot it off,
don't worry about cops...
Oh and so Redbull can be the envy of everyone... He's carrying a Sig Sauer 226 9mm
with four 15 round mags and one in the pipe for a grand total of 61 hollowpoints of fun!
-- AND it's legal -- snicker, snicker, snicker
knowledgehungry September 12th, 2004, 10:08 AM

9mm... I'd be more impressed with .45ACP. Oh well to each his own, I'm getting a blackpowder pistol in a month or so soon
as I turn 18, then life will be fun ;).
nbk2000 September 13th, 2004, 01:38 PM

Redbull is armed with a gun and can't put together a proper sentence.
:rolleyes:
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Isotoxin October 3rd, 2004, 12:25 AM

Improvised be damned! If you live in the USA then get a 1911 or some nice big gun, a smart carry rig and a CCW permit.
Then you need to train, know the laws, shoot well, work on the draw, train with a sim. There is nothing better on the street
then a .45 handgun leveled at someones chest.
read packing.org and thehighroad.org for good gun and CCW info
tdog49 October 3rd, 2004, 04:43 PM

NBK,
Sad thing is, your comment also describes most of our military.....
Isotoxin,
Damn straight. Any defense minded person is decieving themselves and setting themselves up for failure if they do not take
advantage of this opportunity where it is allowed. My preference is the 9mm simply because it is so easy to shoot....
raptor1956 October 3rd, 2004, 06:47 PM

Countries that allegedly have strict firearms laws still have firearms around. The only things that weapons bans control are the
relative prices. Even here in Oz, where everything other than a plastic spoon is virtually illegal, you can go out any day of the
week and get any firearm from a bolt action .22 to a Steyr AUG if you know where to look and have enough cash. Bottom line
is: if you truly want to defend yourself... you will! BTW Redbull, I'm not that sure that everyone on this forum is a criminal.
Some of us may just want to sock away info for the day we need it, or have a genuine love of knowledge.
nbk2000 October 4th, 2004, 02:20 PM

Eventually it'll come to where ANYONE with a gun, regardless of reason or intent, will be a criminal, so get into the criminal
frame of mind of when it comes to guns.
doggie October 19th, 2004, 04:14 PM

My favorite anti mugging device was a simple card with a phone number on it.
used 3 of them so far, and was forced to use a 9mm darringer on the 4th.
I was approached by 3 guys while walking to my car in Miami and one opens his jacket showing his pistol.
"gimme your money."
Look him up and down, "who are you with?" as cooly sa possible.
"what? with them..." he implies the other two watching out for cops.
"you arent protected? are you fucking kidding me? what part of town you from?"
"this aint fucking 20 questions! gimme your money"
"Listen to me carefully, do you plan on dying slowly with no one but the snakes and gators in the glades to hear, or do you
want to learn how to start making big money?"
He looks me up and down "I just want the fucking money"
I pull out my card and a FAKE $100 bill and hand him the card and the bill.
Step close to him and said "you better fucking call me, cause if I gotta send some boys to find you for my money, the glades
will run red"
He took the card and fake cash and gladly got the fuck out of there... too bad the number was a phone test number and is
always busy.
But it takes 2 minutes to pull a con like that, versus a lot of legal issues or maybe ending up dead.
worse case senario: they call your bluff and you have to fight your way out, but they will be scared off the streets for a bit , just
in case.
(ps, improvised weapon: leather jacket cuff with lead sewn into them and a loop for a finger to fit in sewn into the inside of the
cuff. makeshift brassknuckles. make sure your sleeves are long enough)
I had kevlar sewn into the liner of my jacket, not for bullets, but to make it a lot less likely that a blade swipe will open me up.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > British Bouncing Bomb
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Sorry about starting a new top ic when I have so few replies...but this is very unique and I have found no previous posts on it in
the Archives or here.
During WW 2, the British were pretty de sperate to sink the Germ an Tirpitz. One of the weapons they cam e up with was the
"Bouncing Bomb". It was a barrel dropped from an airplane at about 60 feet over the water in front of a target. The Barrel spun
at 500 rpm and was dropped at 240 MPH. When it hit the water, it would skim and bounce along the surface (hence the nam e)
until it ram m ed the target. It would then sink a few feet under the surface of the water and explode...causing the m a x i m u m
p o s s i b l e d a m age. It was used to dam a g e a G e r m a n d a m , but was not used on the Tirpitz since the Tallboy/Earthquake bom b
was developed shortly after.
Now, imagine the fun we could have with an im provised Bouncing Bom b. W e c o u l d h a v e a s m all can filled with some explosive
(I guess that would depend on what kind you like) and fired from a launcher. The launche r would get it up to a speed that it
would be able to bounce along the water's surface, but I'm not sure how to get the can to spin fast enough?
As a weapon, this is really pointless. But to me atleast, there's just som ething about watching watching som e t h i n g b o u n c e
towards a target and then explode. <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I d o n ' t s e e a ny m uch m erit as a weapon, really.
Maybe belongs in pyrotechnics.
Anyway, not m y job... back to the post...
C e r t a i n g r e n a d e s s h o ot around like that so that those on the recieving end can't grab them and th row them back. C roud
control m ostly, I believe, not sure though...
Anyway you could probably attach a co2 cartridge (like those used in pellet guns, or maybe bigger ones, lik e for paintball
g u n s ) , a n d h ave the end punctured after a short delay. As in, after you have thrown it. :)
Anyway, doesn't seem that ex citing to me. :shrug:
<sm all>[ June 26, 2002, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]</sm all>
Charlie Workman June 26th, 2002, 05:09 PM

I believe the Chileans (or was it South Africans?) used something like that with a cluster bom b for use against airfie lds and
such. The bo mblets had a thick rubberized coating which caused them to bounce upon hitting a hard surface. They would then
detonate in the air. I have the details som ewhere in m y files, but don't im mediately recall them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"To Paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget
kingspaz June 26th, 2002, 06:27 PM

MrSam osa, yopu have started two new threads and you are a ne w m e m b e r . d o N O T p o s t a n y m ore new topics until you have
contributed to the forum with som e good quality answers. read the rules section. breaking of the rules will not be tolerated.
this page should help, a simple search on google found this.
<a href="http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/we bprojects2001/moorcraft/The%20Bouncing%20Bomb.htm" target="_blank">h ttp://

www.chm .bris.ac.uk/webprojects2001/m oorcraft/The%20 Bouncing%20Bom b.htm </a>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Acrolein
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This was brought up in the Self Defence thread, but I fe el it really deserves a thread of its own...I was just thinking about
p o s t i n g s o m ething on it anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
Acrolein is made by rem oving 2 W ater Molecules from Glycerol. It is a really nasty gas: highly flam mable, very toxic, and
c a u s e s s o m e s k i n d a m age. It can also form explosive peroxides when stored. Here is an excerpt from its MSDS ( <a
href="http://www.jtbaker.com / m s d s / a 1 5 3 8 . h t m " target="_blank">http://www.jtbaker.com/m s d s / a 1 5 3 8 . h t m < / a > ) :
</fo nt><blockquote>quote:<hr />11. Toxicological Inform ation
Toxicological Data:
- Toxicological Data -
Oral rat LD50: 26 mg/kg;
Inhalation ra t L C 5 0 : 1 8 m g / m 3 / 4 H;
Skin rabbit LD50: 200 m g / k g .
- Irritation Data -
Skin rabbit (std Draize, 2 m g / 24 H): Severe;
Skin rabbit (open Dra i z e , 5 m g ) : S e v e r e ;
Eye rabbit (std Draize , 50 ug / 24 H): Severe;
Eye rabbit (std Draize , 1 m g): Severe.
I n v e s t i g a t e d a s a t u m origen, m utagen, reproductive effector.

Carcinogenicity:
EPA / IRIS classification: Group C - Possible hum an carcinogen. <hr /></blockquote>If you haven't downloaded "War Gases" off the FTP, you really should; very interesting and useful. In this
book, it describes the synthesis of Acrolein by dehydrating Glycerol (100 gm ) using a Pota s s i u m B i s u l p h a t e ( 8 0 g m ) a n d
anhydrous Sodium Sulphate (20 gm) and heating to 160-180 degrees celsius.
It also mentioned that other chemicals can be used to dehydrate the Glycerin, such as phosphoric acid or boric acid. As of right
now, I only h ave Boric Acid (H3BO3) on hand. I also have 80% Glycerin o n hand (The laxative kind..hehe). Using Boric Acid, I
should only get 30-40% of the theoretical yields, but I think this will for the better. The im purities will m ake the Acrolein store
better, since they will delay its polym erization. O nce Acrolein has polymerized, it loses its irritating properties and is worthless.
My problem is that I do not know how to figure out the ratio of 8 0% Glycerol/20% W ater to 100% Boric Acid powder.
I'm intereste d in this because of its relatively e asy synthesis, which would make it a good choice as an improvised Chem ical
W eapon.
EDIT- I realized this would be better in the "Battlefield Chem istry" section. Could a m oderator plea s e m ove it.
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 6 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 0 0 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M r S a m o s a ] < / s m all>

m oving....

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > U ltra-Power Spring Pistol SAC-1 (3 tons)
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jelly June 27th, 2002, 03:23 AM

In the 2nd world war the form er US secret service OSS b e g a n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f a n e w
weapon for com m a n d o operations, a n oiseless pistol without a visible m uzzle flash for
distances up to 50 meters. Th e projectile should have a calibre of approxim ately
0.5 inches and should be driven by spring force.
The following picture shows the result, the pistol SAC-1 with a spring force of
a p p r o x i m ately 3 tons!!! The spring was com pressed with a winch (jack principle).
A metal arrow driven by this force penetrated a 0.5 inches thick wooden board
when shot from a distance of 15 meters.
D o e s a n y o n e h a v e m o r e d e t a i l e d i n f o r m ations (descriptions, im a g e s o r p l a n s ) a b out this

nice pistol or a similar weapon?
A n d . . . c a n a n y o n e e x p l a i n , h o w the releasing m e c h a n i s m works exactly, i.e. how the

two cogwheels, the gear rack and the trigger work together in order to hold a tension
of 3 tons safely and then release it very fast?
<a href="http://jelly1 46.tripod.com /sac1" target="_blan k">http://jelly146.tripod.com/sac1</a>
* W e can't se e any pictures ho sted by tripod and geocities. Bette r to use a link. Angelo
<sm all>[ June 27, 2002, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: jelly ]
Charlie Workman June 28th, 2002, 03:14 AM

Sorry, Jelly. This device turned out to be m uch m ore trouble than its perform ance warranted. If me mory serves, the dart was
only about .25 caliber and it took seve ral m inutes to reload. The silenced Hi-Stan dard was hell and gone better in a ll respects.
If its just a n on firearm you're looking for, John Brunner's book on OSS crossbows has a wealth of photos a nd drawings you
could work with. Hope this helps.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Artistotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget
jelly June 28th, 2002, 06:19 AM

@charlie... thanks for your info. i'll try to get this book.
i have uploaded a "big" picture (in size, not in kb) of BIG JOE 5, a very
cool looking crossbow for a range up to 200 m eters... developed by the OSS.
it sh o u l d n o t b e h a r d t o m a k e this powerful weapon in homework :D :D
<a href="http://jelly1 46.tripod.com /bigjoe5" target="_blank">http://jelly146.tripod.com /bigjoe5</a>
Nitro June 28th, 2002, 09:46 AM

The British De Lisle Carbine works with the sam e system . T h e y u s e d i t a s a n c o m mando gun in ww2.It works like the
archimedes screw.10 m etal wheels with an hole, slow the burning gases.Optim al range was 250 m eters.7 shot m a g z i n e . N o l o n g
reload times.
zaibatsu June 28th, 2002, 02:06 PM

There's a cro ssbow pistol in PMJB, not sure which, possibly 2. If you have n't got it jelly, I can find it and em ail you the pages.
jelly June 28th, 2002, 04:40 PM

@zaibatsu... thanks, but i have all of kurts boo ks (long live nbk :) )
what do you think about this OSS weapon, the crossbow pistol SAC-13?
coool, eh? :D
a metal arrow driven by this m iniaturized "rubber band" pistol (with m ore
than 2000 lb power!!!) is lethal over a range up to 10 m eters.
<a href="http://jelly1 46.tripod.com /sac13" target="_bla nk">http://jelly146.tripod.com/sac13</a>
lac July 17th, 20 02, 02:2 0 PM

this book looks interesting,
the description says "In addition to featuring detailed descriptions, technical drawings and rare photographs of hundreds of
p i e c e s o f e q u i p m ent"
<a href="http://shop.store.yahoo.com/spytechagency/11674.htm l" targe t="_blank">http://shop.store.yahoo.com /
spytechagency/11674.html</a>
jelly July 18th, 20 02, 09:4 9 AM

@lac sounds very good, thank s for the info :)
lac July 18th, 20 02, 11:3 6 AM

it is also suggested b y the cia of you want to le arn about the OSS.
"Joh n W . Bru nner, O SS W e a p o n s ( W illiamstown, NJ: Phillips Publications, 1994)"
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/oss/art11.htm" target="_bla nk">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica t i o n s / o s s /

art11.htm </a> :)
A-BOMB July 18th, 20 02, 06:0 2 PM

Oh I see how that sac-1 works, the crank turns a sm all racheted gear head that turns a larger gear that pulles back the bar till
it lock into place. I think I just found a nother project that I only half complete, so und cool.
jelly July 18th, 20 02, 08:4 9 PM

@A-BO MB yes... but I cannot see how the winch m e c h a n i s m
(gear wheels and gear rack) is connected to the trigger.
W hat exactly will happen with them when you press the trigger?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Tactical Batons
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My new work requires me to walk alot at night, I'm thinking if there's any defense weapon good enough for short collision
since I'm not a very good runner. A weapon that should be painful enough to break the spirit but not too painful that it would
aggravate the attacker/making him gone berserk.
I've been researching on those telescoping batons, the ASP especially. While the cops use it, I think it must be quite easy to
operate it since the skinny lady at the store can open it with a single wrist twist.
Now those ASP batons somehow has a hard to believe price, I'd spend money for quality, but not names. Do any of you ever
have experience with this type of weapon, ASP, wilmoth, or any other brand???
You could also tell how you felt if you ever got beaten by one ;)
SATANIC June 27th, 2002, 08:30 PM

I have a friend with a "CASCO" extendable baton, it telescopes to about 15cm, and extends to about 40 cm. Even un-
extended, it would make a great improvised weapon. extremely heavy, compact, and with a rubberised grip, easy to hold on
to.
I would probably actually rather use it unextended, by using a jabbing motion with the pommel / base. All the weight of the
baton, and my swing, hitting them in one small compacted area is really going to hurt. If you're fast enough, you can swing it
fast, and so extend it and hit them in the one swing. :D That way it's less than a few seconds between it coming from your
pocket, and them getting smashed on the shoulder / edge of the neck (would be my point of aim.)
While i don't think it will completely incapacitate him, it would certainly make anyone think twice. Unfortunately, it is likely to
get any hooligan pissed if you drop him with one blow. (which is why you follow up quickly with more :p )
The hard bit is getting it back from extended. you have to hit them sideways on something hard to 'break' the seal it forms.
(the harder you swing it out, the harder this will be.)
At $190 AUS, i won't be getting one, but if i could afford it, it would be my concealed weapon of choice.

"might incapacitate" and "better follow up"
...think again, buddy.
This things are WAY more powerful than most peopl expect. Why do you think the fuzz only hits you in the ribs with their
batons? Well, for starters, people cover their head as a reflex, leaving their bellies plump for the thumpin. That, and the little
problem of KILLING the subject when tryint to subdue them, if you hit them in the head that is.
I know of incidents where a collapsable baton has broken a FEMUR. That's right. That really really big bone in your thigh. One
swing.
If you give a thug a good crack, well, pretty much anywhere in the head or neck... or a solid shot to the ribs/stomache, you
can bet yer ass he's gonna be incapacitated!
MoToMaStR June 27th, 2002, 10:27 PM

my dad bough one of them in flordia when we went down in december.its about 5 or 6" long, and when you extrend it its about
18" long and plenty heavy, id say about 2 lbs. the tip of it has a ball aboutthe size of a pinball machine steel ball, and id say
a whot to the head or face would take a chunk of skull out along with it. the intimidation factor alone of the 3 clicks when its
extended should be mroe than enough to ward off any would be attacker. but definatly 1 swing would be more than enough to
drop anyone. if i remember correctly it was about 20 bucks, 180 in AUS? wow man, thats alotta money.
well take it easy dude.
[ June 27, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: MoToMaStR ]
PYRO500 June 27th, 2002, 10:51 PM

although I favor the side handle baton or tonfa, the concealability and power of these expandable ones is nothing to doubt.
ASP is just a brand of the baton, there are cheaper generic brands witch might do just as well. since you job requires you to
walk around at night I ouldrecomend a big maglight flashlight. these are big, heavy and can become frersome weapons in an
instant.

only reason its so expensive in AUS s cause there illeagal
like everything fucking else is around here
frostfire June 28th, 2002, 12:13 AM

walking at night is not the job, it's the way to go home, which is walking to the parking lot several blocks away from the
building (darn expensive downtown rate!)
I was thinking about 16/26 inch (exyended), if you go to botach tactical you'll see the thing. It costs around $65-$75, the
imitation cause you around $19-$25, that's why I'm so high in doubt
I don't think I can carry tonfa around since it will raise questions from my comrades, flashlight could be a good thing (those
tactical Maglite ones), but those are actually pretty heavy and for beating purpose, the diameter would only be comfortable for
someone with big palm and strong wrist
As for that incapatitating power, I'm still wondering if theyre actually that powerful,somehow I thought a well built street people
would be able to withstand such blow. Also most likely I'll be hitting arms/wrist to drop their knives or prevent them from
grabbing the baton. Let's see if there's actually a training for using this thing. I know the cops are trained first.

They are trained to fake to the head, hit in the rib cage. No serious training.
The only training you could do with one, really, would be using one vs someone else with one, which is so unlikely its not worth
the trouble. It would be basically the same as kali stick fighting, though.
If you hit someone hard in the arm with one, trust me, you will knock the damn weapon out of their hand, and prolly even
break their arm.
The flashlight is a great overhead pummel. Hole it over your shoulder, with your hand on the light part that is facing forward,
this way you can shine it in their face (they can't see), and easily strike downward, and shine in their eyes again if need be.
(go to the link in the "Modern Metsubushi" thread to see where I got this tactic, and I think it has a bit more in depth on it
too)
Just practice drawing it fast, really fast, while on the move, while backing away, while charging etc. The striking part is just
natural, assuming you have any coordination at all. Swing for... just about anything really, depending on the threat level of the
attacker. If he is undermed, dont crack his skull open when he asks for your wallet. If he is within 5 feet and has a knife ready
to strike, maybe a swift jaw shot is just the thing you need, and may get away with if it goes to court (which you should do
everything to prevent anyway).
And by the way, don't doubt the batons strength and brutality, I am not exaggerating or making it up when I say that it can
break bones straight up. And that's the big ones covered with thick flesh. Imagine what one of those would to to a skull?
Here is something to give you an idea: tap yourself VERY lightly on the head with the end of it. It will sting a little. Now
imagine a full force, full speed shot, maybe to the temple? *ouch*
SATANIC June 28th, 2002, 11:29 PM

Mick, they're not illegal in Australia, :D go to an army disposals store, they sell to mainly security guards and the like, (cops
who lose theirs) :rolleyes:
with a good swing, no matter where you hit someone, you will hurt them. a good hit to the head is going to cause major
damage. hit anywhere else, and you'll stop them from using whatever you hit (arm or whatever)
get one and practice. you'll understand.
Fl4PP4W0k June 29th, 2002, 02:53 PM

Frostfire, you mentioned that the diameter\weight of the large (D Cell \ Rechargeable) MagLites is too large? May I suggest
the 5C model...this has a similar length, the same brightness, weighs a bit less and has a more comfortable diameter for
smaller hands.
Not to say that its LIGHT mind you... a whack from one of those SOBs will hurt...allot. A swift contact with the skull would knock
the guy down and out for sure.
Also, there are these nylon grip\sheath things for maglites. You may have seen them. They basically affix over the forward
part, and assist in..well.. beating people :) Ill try and find a link for ya...
I have a small-ish 4C... and sure as hell wouldnt wanna get hit with that mofo. That is a little short reach tho... but jabbing
motions to the crotch\throat would be damn effective.
Ill grab the link...

L8r,
rob
EDIT : <a href="http://www.zbattery.com/gnc05c.html" target="_blank">http://www.zbattery.com/gnc05c.html</a>

Found it...
This thing helps allot for overhead striking with the butt... ouch.
[ June 29, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Fl4PP4W0k ]
10fingers June 29th, 2002, 04:22 PM

A collapsible baton would be nice but I'd rather have some of those pointy shoes that have the knives that pop out of the toe.
I think I saw them in a James Bond movie. A couple kicks to the groin with those babys and that hombre is going down.

yep, a knife and you'll get more than you can take.
In US they have all sort of modified laws that benefit the bad guys,
eg. if you're mugged, you give them the money and later chase them and injure them (hit, shoot, stab, name it) and take
your money back, you're basically the bad guy now and you can get sued....oh man.
You need to work extremely hard to make something goes under self defense category. Sometime gender makes it easier
though
Fl4PP4W0k, thanks for the link, should work at home better
I get it now:
<a href="http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/LE/MEB/chptr3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/LE/MEB/
chptr3.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.policebatons.com/mptc/news/news1.html" target="_blank">http://www.policebatons.com/mptc/news/
news1.html</a>
[ June 29, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]

i haven't read much of this thread but heres a link to a place which sells a few different batons and does online purchasing.
<a href="http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/800/shopscr1235.html" target="_blank">http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/800/

shopscr1235.html</a>

That grip clip thig or whatever is no good for combat. You want to hold the mag by the end, preferably the end where the light
comes out. This gives the other end maximum speed, thus maximum force. When swinging that is.
By the way, I don't think thrusting is a really keen idea w/ a mag. It would be about like a punch, but slower and easier to
parry.
I will explain my mag tactic a little more clearly (or try to at least)... it allows you to easily shine in the oppenents eyes, while
still at the ready to attack downward (ie head/neck) or to the side (ribs, jaw, ears, temple).
Imagine how you would hold a baseball bat over your shoulder with one hand. Specifically, holding w/ your right hand over your
right shoulder. Your pinky will be forward, with your fingers wrapped downward on the handle, and your thumb up. Now, replace
the bat with a mag-lite. You grip the end where the light comes from, with your thumb and index finger wrapped Just where the
"barrel" widens, and the rest of your fingers further up (on the fatter part). This allows you to easily attack, shine at the face,
and even hold it with your shoulder/neck clinched together if you need to, without moving much. Since you are holding the
end, swings will have maximum speed and force (and damage). It's a very natural swinging motion, too, and it uses gravity to
your advantage.
Those batons are all over ebay, too... where they ship to, however, varies.
Also, I just looked at that police training page thing. It's pretty much common sense. 'hit them in the arm and it will hurt a
little, hit them in the head it will hurt a lot, and a lot longer'. :)
Baton vs knife: In this situation, consider going for the bicep (not tricep), and if you are lucky, the area where the bicep meets
the tricep (on the inside of the arm). It's quite a pressure point. Press down on it with your thumb if you don't believe me.
Anyway, even punching someone there can temporarily disable the arm (and thus the weapon). It wouldn't be easy to hit, but
very effective if pulled off.
10fingers June 30th, 2002, 12:23 AM

Frostfire, the shoes with the knives was a bit of sarcasm.
Have you thought about just getting a can of mace. It's cheap and easy to find. Some of this stuff sprays quite a ways so you
wouldn't have as much risk of being grabbed. Even with a baton, if they grab you it could be bad.
Another good thing to carry is a whistle. Sometimes just making a lot of noise will scare off a potential attacker.
PYRO500 June 30th, 2002, 01:13 AM

Exactly how bad is this area you are walking through? if it were really bad I'd see if I could get a permit to carry a piece if my
state allowed it. or you could get a large butterfly knife or something that is easily visible when you want it to be.
0EZ0 June 30th, 2002, 02:35 AM

Quite an interesting site selling all types of non-lethal defensive equipment:
<a href="http://www.nonlethalforce.com/" target="_blank">http://www.nonlethalforce.com/</a>
frostfire June 30th, 2002, 03:37 AM

how bad?, well it's downtown area for sure and there's been 5 cases reported on/near that particular street this month. 2 with a
gun, 1 with a knife, 2 uncertain whether the mugger got a weapon or not.
I'm taking an advice from the last safety session from the complex police; stun guns don't work on all people and mace as
well. ( he told us a story about a can man deflecting a cop's mace just by covering his face with his own shirt, the start beating
the cop)
I'm not very comfortable with a piece, I'm worry it would hurt me or my friends/family more than being used as an actual
defense weapon.
Those batons in ebay are imitation and the quality is questionable. I think monadnock is the best one; quality & price wise.
[ June 30, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
PYRO500 June 30th, 2002, 04:28 AM

if you must get a blank firing gun then. if they fuck with you shoot it in the air, that might work but be prepared to back it up
with something real if necessary. what about an air tazer? you could buy pepper spray or better, pepper foam, that stuff is
suppoised to not be easily wiped off and while mace won't really work on everyone (esp drunks) pepper spray will blind anyone
that gets a mist in their eyes and they will have their eyelids sewll and forcibly shut them, you just have to get them good.
what about a possibly non threatening weapon like a screwdriver? they are very great at leaving dep puncutre wounds and are
disposable. but for most people they stay away from the melee weapons. I'd suggest an air taser but if there are sevaral
targets that will do no good and they are expensive.
[ June 30, 2002, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
kingspaz June 30th, 2002, 08:59 AM

some guy whos waiting to be approved emailed me a couple of relevent links to post here:
<a href="http://www.prokit.fsnet.co.uk/batons.html" target="_blank">http://www.prokit.fsnet.co.uk/batons.html</a>
<a href="http://www.spytech-uk.com/" target="_blank">http://www.spytech-uk.com/</a>

wow, you guys in UK really pay toooo much money for batons...thank the guys for the link though, at least I know where to
order stuff in UK and the price as well
that blank gun is very creative and those M-18's are really for the serious & rich (which I'm not the second one :( )
Mace, pepper spray etc ect:

-they can be deflected
-watch for the wind
-will definitely aggravate the attacker
I've decided what I need, I most definitely will buy that air canned honker NBK mentioned, practice more jogging/
sprinting....yep, that and perhaps backed up by an APS or monadnock
10fingers, now I get the sarcasm...yes that's true, if I want to be really mean, the first place I would maim is their
"extendable baton" :D
[ June 30, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
nbk2000 July 1st, 2002, 05:28 AM

Another thing you may want to get, frostfire, is a rechargable handheld spotlight. They cost about $20-40 at Wal-Mart, weigh a
couple of pounds, and put out something like 200,000 candlepower or more. Get the one with the gun style trigger.
You have this slung around your neck when some punk approachs, you just whip it out and blind him with a flash in the eyes.
Keep your dominant eye closed while you do this so you still have night vision in one eye.
While he's blinded, you blast him with the air horn can, closer to his ear the better. Then either attack or run. He's blind and
deaf, so in no shape to either defend or attack.
If you threw some pepper spray into the mix, so much the better.
Fl4PP4W0k July 1st, 2002, 06:19 AM

Yeah, Tyler.. I totally agree.
Those little grip thingies would be good with a smaller one (like mine) that dont have much lenght. 2D or whatever.
With that grip on the side, a downwards thrust onto the top of the head would be pretty decent...
Eg: Kick 'em in the nuts, they start to go down, and you whack em with the base of the mag.
I guess one would just have to find what method they prefer...
And, as i suggested in the 'Improvised Metsubushi' or whatever, a can of oven cleaner is damn effective as a makeshift OC or
Mace.
30% NaOH, foaming, and the cans easily modified to a long range stream.
Problem is that its TOO effective.... If you get someone in the eyes, and they dont get medical attention quick (or flush with
shitloads of water\vinegar) then permanent eye damage is guaranteed.
Ofcourse, the bums that go about mugging ppl dont deserve eyesight...so as long as the cops dont catchya - squirt away
:mad:
NBK... while those spotlights are effective as hell (1.5million candle power..ouch) i couldnt really see the average guy walking
down the street with one over his neck :p It would look a tad odd.
I wouldnt be surprised if some bum came up behind you, knocked u over the head and stole it :D
A blank firing gun isnt always a good idea. Ofcourse if its some little kiddy-gangsta who doesnt wanna start anything serious -
then they work great. BUT.... if the mugger ALSO has a gun - then your in the shitter.
A solution is to get a concealed carry permit.... or just buy a small .410\.22 derringer kit. These things are powerful and un-
liscenced to buy (carry is another matter). Theres not much intimidation factor with a derringer... but still.
PYRO500 July 1st, 2002, 12:55 PM

After doing a trace on your ip (to let me know the area that you might live in better) I can hhonestly say that if you live where
I think you do that you not very likely to get a concealed weapons permit there, especially in the city I remember a trip to that
city and we almost ended up staying in a hotel that had been given a drive by complete with freshly plastered over bullet
holes. I think the flashlight ideas is a good one just make sure you are prepared to use it and can get to it quickly and that
the switch isn't rigid or complicated. have den the gun type wthat have a trigger type switch that rocks left and light and is a
bitch to flip on especially if you pushed the lock from behind in. instead I'd recomend the gun type that have the traditional
trigger style and somehow glue the safety off to avoid any mistakes after all any self defens weapon should not have any
things on it to slow it down. as for guns, since you won't likely get a concealed carry permit then you might be able to carry a
pepper spray pistol, witch is sort of like a blank gun but with a hole in the barrel to allow pepperspray from cartrages to be
fired at an attacker.As for home made weapons I am currently experimenting with an xenon camera flash that I removed from
a camera recently, I mounted it in a box and added a few extra photo flash capacitors (actually 3 extra totaling 4) when this
thing is charged it contains about 18J of energy (30J considered lethal or causing severe injury) in fact the flash puts out so
mush light that whe it's held up to a piece of paper with laser printer toner on it (just a printed page) in caused the toner to
noisily explode and put burn marks on the paper, needless to say this thing is absolutely blinding in daylight (think of the last
photograph you took and imagine about 4 1/2 times brighter and in your face. ) I am currently waiting on getting more flash
capacitors to really make a powerful flash and if the bulb explodes from the stress well, that might have some interesting
effects on your attackers face. I am also waiting for a call back to be approved for my new job as a late night movie
projectionist (think fight club) in most theaters they use xenon arc lamps to light the screen witch can be ignited just like flash
tubes in cameras except that they are capable of much more energy running through them as they were designed for
continuous use. I have a big 15 pound super low ESR 1000V 50J capicitor that seems to be up for experimentation and if I can
get more photo flash capacitors I may build a big maglight flashlight sized device that can burn (set on fire) any dark objects
close to it's lens.
Flake2m July 2nd, 2002, 12:19 PM

My Mum has some of that concentrated OC pepper spray. It is bloody powerful stuff :D . I test fired it (it says on the label to
test every 30 days to prevent mis-fires) into the shower, I thought I had washed it off the tiles.
I had a shower an hour later, and had difficulty breathing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> because I had
missed a very small amount (>.5ml) of the stuff, after about a minute of coffing it was washed away.
Tape a can of this stuff onto your baton so you have a more potent weapon. If you get attacked you can spray the (now)
victim in the eyes with this stuff and then bash him with the telescopic baton, if he gets too close.
pyromaniac_guy July 2nd, 2002, 12:39 PM

pyro500...
all projection systems i have seen that use an arc lamps use a short arc xenon arc lamp... These are not suitable for use as a
flash lamp.. yop will very quickly destroy the electrodes (after literally only a few shots) if you really want to experiment with a
flash blinding device get a proper flashlamp off of ebay.. you could probably get one for 10 or 20 bux.... if that doesnt work,
look at lasersurplus.com ... go to the alsers page and scroll all the way down.. .the guy has some brand new flashlamps for 50
bux... a fair bit cheaper than they come new, and you could probably haggle him down a fair bit too....
frostfire July 2nd, 2002, 04:07 PM

PYRO500, I don't know if you get the place correct (darn if you do..), but I believe it's completely legal to carry such device
here.Why?
- in the last safety course by the local police, people ask about carrying mace, even stun baton! He didn't tell us anything
about illegal aspects, he only said that people response differently from the usage of these devices
- it's sold in a legal/legitimate security store to the public (if it's illegalto carry, then they would be illegal right)
- I've been trying hard to find in the net a shopping page that mention states where they can't ship stun guns/batons etc, as I
recalled, they were CA (most definite), NY, MN, etc but my place was excluded
How big is this flash lamp, is it similar to those old fashion camera flash?
a sprayer idea: ever play with those gas BB gun? my freund opens one and take a cylinder witha plastic nozzle from the
handle. You can filled it with flammable gas (hence pocket dragon, note: you won't burn yourself, it's ejected with high
pressure) or you can fill the plastic nozzle with goodies (eg. the old KGB cyanide sprayer)
pyromaniac_guy July 2nd, 2002, 06:16 PM

frostfire...
dude if you think that just because a store can legally sell a weapon to the public, i advise you to talk to someone who knows
what the law actually says and means.... you can walk into any wall-mart and buy a shotgun, hacksaw, and trench coat. that
doesnt mean you can saw the barrel and walk about carrying the gun under your coat...
where i live it's legal to buy stun guns, but to carry it concealed on your person you need a concealed weapons permit....
PYRO500 July 3rd, 2002, 12:34 AM

I wasn't talking about ordinary weapons fronst fire I was talking about citizens carrying concealed firearms. as far as most
states go they usually only give them out for property protection. Although around here they can't refuse a to give you a
permit if you are an ordinary law obiding citizen although the slightest visibility of the weapon is a few years in prison and a
felony meaning no more guns. The reason it's so easy in this state is most likely the frequent carjackings.
Eliteforum July 4th, 2002, 03:39 PM

I don't know why you are all complaining about the high prices, I've seen them for sale for as low as 14 ($21 euro's) at <a
href="http://www.guns2u.com" target="_blank">www.guns2u.com</a>
Here is a picture of the one they have for sale: <img src="http://www.guns2u.com/products/images/truncheon/
truncheon_tele_open1.jpg" alt=" - " />
Mr Cool July 8th, 2002, 01:29 PM

I don't know how effective this would be, but it might be worth thinking about if you have the chems: It would be easy to make
a little flash pot, similar to the things that they use for stage effects, but with a more powerful flash powder, and put on a little
handle and some sort of trigger to ignite it from a 9v battery. Don't make the flash too good though, or it'll blow the thing to
pieces and make a mess of both of you!
But I think it might work, a loud BANG and an absolutely blinding flash will disorientate and blind the attacker, and then if you
leap through the cloud of smoke and smash his nose in with fist or baton, while the "attacker" is still trying to work out what
the fuck that was, and whether or not he's been shot, and where you are (he's blind remember, and maybe temporarily
deaf)... it could work. Try not to accidentally set anyone on fire, though.
Deja_W August 30th, 2002, 10:14 PM

I have used the tactical extending baton several times in my line of work, and Ive never had any complaints. This weapon
like any other requires skill to use, but a good solid blow to the leg will, in most cases, put a man down.
Ropik November 25th, 2004, 03:43 PM

I'm carrying 21" hardened baton(it cost 25 dollars and it's worth every cent of them) on my belt all the time... and it begins to
pay back now.
I was asked for a cellphone by two punks. I put on my best "scared to death" face and said yes. I reached to my belt(I have
the pocket with the phone in close proximity of the baton holster... You can decide what is better to pull from underneath the
jacket :D) and jerked out the baton. It readily opened and I slammed the first punk to thigh(best target when you can reach
it, IMO. The muscles will contract and the leg will collapse under him). Almost instant takedown. The second punk vanished as
a ghost. The strike was powered only by flick of the arm, no hip rotation or whatever. The effectivity amaze me even now. One
strike - one opponent out of the fight. Superior argument for close-up :) .
festergrump November 26th, 2004, 12:01 AM

I hope they didn't just need to call their parents to let them know they'd be a little late for dinner! I promise I will never ask
you for your cellphone...EVER! ;)
I can vouch for the effectiveness of those batons, also. Even the cheaper immitation batons are worth their weight in gold if
you must walk the streets late or travel subways and such. I'd even say it'd wreak havok on a very aggressive dog if need be.
Like you, Ropik, I'd wear it beneath a jacket or otherwise concealed to avoid notice. Carrying it in plain view is asking for
trouble (Fuck the law. Don't get searched). The surprise of an expandable weapon such as this is every bit as effective as the
wallop it provides.
jackhammer November 29th, 2004, 03:13 PM

I have a collapsable baton, and it does indeed make a handy little weapon, especially if you know how to use it. I prefer my
metal nunchuku (I made them myself) because they are thin (for nunchucks) and very heavy, so that with a little swing you
can break just about anything. The bad part is that these take even more training because it's easy to break your own bones
with them. I know a lot of guys who would like to carry around 6 to 8 inch knives for protection, thinking this is the most lethat,
but what you really want is the most reach. I would rather have a large stick in my hand then an 8 in. combat dagger if it came
down to a mugging. Therefore, I would recommend a cane. Bujinkan ninpo and some wu su styles as well as filipino styles
have a lot on cane fighting, as not only can they be hard and have reach, the crook end can be used for many holds. Also, if
you really want protection, you can get a cane with a sword concealed inside (try ordering offline if it's not legal in your state,
just don't get caught!).
megolodon180 November 29th, 2004, 06:57 PM

A good site to pick up collapsable batons for a reasonable price is at gunbroker.com. This (http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/
Browse.asp?Cat=902) should link you to the site. Other useful, nonlethal defensive items are also for sale there.
Charles Owlen Picket August 2nd, 2007, 12:31 PM

There was actually a test done on these things by the NIJ and some interesting results were published. The ASP and the REAL
MONADNOCK where the only ones that they wanted to do some extensive work with (CASCO makes a no-name that -=could=-
be a Monadnock).
The steel was an issue. the ASP has heavier steel. They both were non-seamed tubing (the knock-offs are seamed tubing and
are crap). The ASP albeit heavier (.075mm), took a bend. The MONADNOCK did not take a bend but actually worked as a
spring. There is a certain length that allows for great rigidity (21") and at 26" there is some flex. This flexing of the baton has
some influence on pain as it creates a "whip" from a non-weight influenced blow (wherein the user puts his weight behind the
swing as opposed to using the wrist/arm as a reflexive strike).
The testing was extensive and utilized a constant force machine in direct compression and kinetic impact. The steel used is
quite different. The MONADNOCK was a type of bicycle-steel used in frames for bikes and such. The steel used in the ASP was
often used in structural re-enforcement, etc. Both were EXTREMELY high quality tubing. The flaring at the end joints was an
issue as well but I believe that the type of plating (if any) had an effect on the wear level of the flare. There was even some
testing done on a plated variant to determine rust resistance and visibility in various light conditions, etc. Note also that the
use of tapping on the floor will roughen the tip causing abrasion to the skin of the subject.
The steel knob on the end of both standard models (MONADNOCK makes some variants) was also at issue...the ASP was
rounder and would possibly produced less tearing while the MONADNOCK was a cylinder which was sharper. This was significant
in the blood-born pathogens issue as well as the mark left on the subject. Which is a PR issue and very important to some
buyers.
Basically the MONADNOCK was rated slightly higher than the ASP due to the spring issue. Sizes also were thought to be
important as the 16" total length was deemed simply too small to be anything but a head buster. ASP maks a 31" that was
also rated too large and would bend on 175lbs. 21" was smallest effective as per the NIJ. I wanted to site source but I only
found the old police-batons.com notation on the print out. [NIJ has their own test related web site]
209 August 2nd, 2007, 08:09 PM

Some time ago I fouund an idea non-lethal wepon that would work excellent against an attacker, but only at close range.
Useless against multipe attackers, yet small and easy to carry around but only has one shot. I found out about those confetti
bangers at a dinner party one night. I am not talking aobut those little bangers that let off with a "pop" and a small burst of
confetti, but a large piece of clear pipe about a foot long that lets of a blast like a gun and sends out enormous amounts of
confetti. The gun can be bought at party shops and uses a disposable C02 cylinder as the propellant for the enourmous noise
and confetti blast.
If some guy stepped out of a shadow one night and demanded your wallet, reach behind you like your going for the wallet and
instead grab the confetti gun and pull the string on it at point blank range directed at his face.
I thought at first to be quite funny, however if it was let off in your face this may have potential to cause serious damage to
the ears and eyes. Anyone with this thing going off in their face would without a doubt shit their pants an fall to the ground,
completly stunned, while you casually walk away. Piece of cake :D.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2007, 02:37 AM

A collapsible baton that is superior to the ASP or Monadnock, is the Wilmoth (http://peacekeeperproducts.com/index.asp).
Machined from solid bar stock, rather than DOM tubing, with a pound of solid steel at the business end of the baton. :)
It's the issued nigger whuppin stick of both LAPD and the Atlanta Housing Police. And if these guys use it, it must be the shit,
because anything they use must be able to put down a cracked out nigger.
Note that LAPD got these after the Rodney King incident showed their existing batons to be inadequate.
Charles Owlen Picket August 3rd, 2007, 11:52 AM

Both the Monadnock & the Wilmoth are available in 24". This size is extremely important in that it provides the intermediate
size that is both ridged and long enough to utilize as a impact range weapon. The Wilmoth appears to have been thought
through from issues arising from both of the others listed above. However often you get what you pay for & the Wilmoth is
pricey. In reality, if one's life may be dependent on the equipment one carries; who gives a damn?
The PR24 (Rotney-King stick) as a Tonfa is simply to much work to maintain proficiency with over the long haul. No one who
works for a living dealing with sub-human garbage is going to want to maintain practice with a martial arts implement.....hence
we have the "clubbing activity" we saw when old "Rotney" needed to comply. Some pain compliance methods work in a
controlled setting & when real life beckons.....it's a joke. The plethora of compliance holds with the PR24 were simply
impractical when one is dealing with a sweaty, bloody, shit-faced untermenchen.
From a simple standpoint of speed the steel baton has them (impact weapons) all beat. What's more you can put your weight
behind it. You don't need to rely on rotational coordination (nunchakus) for kinetic impact. Those individuals who have used
many impact weapons start to agree that when the adrenaline is up and the situation is a slippery wet grass lawn, gravel,
moist hands, etc. the ideal implement is a solid one and the simpler the better.
This is one reason why I have come to APPRECIATE RS. There is a difference between liking something and appreciating it. RS
provides information on a professional level. There is little to no crap like "I smoked bong loads with John Plaster", etc. At
minimum it's addressed and nipped in the bud before he whole thread is ruined (and that must take a lot of constant
vigilance and hassle).
hatal August 3rd, 2007, 03:49 PM

I have used a collapsable steel baton myself (great for clubbing in the knee cab). They go by the name "vipera" here. They
are very popular among disco security guards and other similar lifeforms.
http://i13.tinypic.com/6h7sy37.jpg
/These are ESP brand, quite common but not the only one./
They sell it on the chinese market for 10-20 dollar's. The quality is satisfactional. Meaning: good steel, have been testing it
on a few "people" lately and had no breaking or bending of the material (not damaged in anyway).
Disadvantage: it borders legality. I don't know the law by word, but getting caught with it, can get you heavy fines and lot
more.
Charles Owlen Picket August 4th, 2007, 12:24 PM

I did some research on the Wilmoth baton and found some interesting things. To quote: " (the Wilmoth) creates a higher
kinetic energy transfer. This equates to "rapid stopping power" instead of superficial welts from improperly weighted batons.
This redistributed weight also gives smaller officers of either gender, a more competitive edge in a confrontation because it
takes less effort to achieve higher impact."
So naturally I had to find out EXACTLY what the difference was..... on the Wilmoth the end section (the striking 3rd tube) was
solid! The others had tubing (no matter what the quality level) that was smaller diameter naturally and the striking end was
hollow to allow for closing.
Filling the third section with a lead bar gave a whole new feel to a standard ASP or Monadnock. This weighting gave it a slightly
tip heavy feel but generally the weight was well distributed. The Wilmoth was also constructed like the Casco "British"
collapsible baton with a button as a lock so that it could be pulled and collapsed manually in a closed space.
Aside from the locking mechanism, (which would entail some machining) the weight variance could be employed with an ASP,
etc (with the insertion of a lead weight bar or equivalent) to create the effect the Wilmoth found so effective in subduing
human refuse.
nbk2000 August 5th, 2007, 03:45 AM

Others have discovered that, while adding lead to the end tube of an ASP increases impact effectiveness, it also decreases
lifespan considerably because the tubing isn't intended to support that much weight at the striking end.
So, what happens is, is that the tubing gets bent out of alignment and becomes difficult or impossible to collapse the baton.
The Wilmoth is designed from the start to support a heavy striking end, and all segments are machined from solid bar stock,
not DOM tubing.
Charles Owlen Picket August 5th, 2007, 11:26 AM

The Wilmoth also has a larger diameter tube which may be key to their not bending. The real Monadnocks use 4130 which is
something often called Tange Infinity in the bicycle trade; expensive and very springy stuff but they still maintain a smaller
diameter in the 3rd tube. The ASP uses what's called "common seamless roll-off tubing" which can be anything the jobber has
on hand, that why it's heavier and takes a bend.
The experiment was simple. First viewed was the video of the Wilmoth being struck diagonally against the ground to test it's
resistance to taking a bend. The a Monadnock was then "loaded" with a solid piece of cold-rolled bar stock .30" to fill the 3rd
section and epoxied (as well as pressure driven) into place.
The loaded Monadnock was violently and diagonally struck with a potentially greater level of impact than the video of the
Wilmoth. It was fine; no bend. The "feel" was altered considerably with the addition of a solid 3rd member. Lead, brass, or
other material was avoided as it would do nothing to add strength. Cold rolled steel added less than 2 oz to the weight but it
did make a difference in feel.
Wilmoth must be purchased from 3rd parties as they want contracts and won't sell to the public without you having to have the
object sent to an agency. Their videos are not all that impressive......They don't offer the specifics of the construction
elements on the web-site. But when you actually have one to play with you see that it (Wilmoth) is wider in diameter and is
front heavy. Milling marks are visible to a limited degree.
Whats more they are really milled units. That may just have cost a fortune unless the company obtained hundreds of
thousands of tubes from a government over-run. Which I secretly suspect as the cost of milling the units would put them in a
position to be vulnerable to ever increasing costs & eventually driven out of business by greedy contractors.
nbk2000 August 5th, 2007, 02:08 PM

The cheapest place I've found selling these batons:
http://botac.com/wil21exbat.html
Any size, from 21 to 29 inch, $70.
hatal August 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM

70$ seems a bit over-priced for my wallet. For 70$ it must atleast last for 200 bashed skulls.:D
(Doesn't matter, I don't have enemies, that many. And the "family" is belligerent and numerous ;))
Charles Owlen Picket August 7th, 2007, 12:19 PM

I wanted to add a bit of info that I received regarding this subject specifically. ASP runs a class for the use of their tactical
batons Monadnock also runs a certification class. The Monadnock class is a full week, the ASP is generally one working day.
The certifications differ. The concept of the ASP class has a legal component and a Red-Man component. the Monadnock class
is much more involved as cert. classes go. But the main difference is the approach......
The ASP classes use a RED MAN (both do actually). Thats a guy in a red padded suit that charges at you, grabs you, swings on
you & you swing on this guy till you drop (this is very important in that it emulates adrenal response, etc)! The striking areas
are shoulder and down. The use of the weapon is similar to the standard wooden baton in that two hands may be used (to
"poke" at midsection) and the strikes are similar to slashing with a saber.
The Monadnock class focus on STRIKING THE HANDS & ARMS of the opposing party(s). This is a very distinct difference. The
flexibility of the baton becomes a major part of the technique. A broken hand(s) or forearm can seriously disable an opponent
FAST. The emphasis is placed on speed. the fact that large muscle groups are also targeted is there but the emphasis is
placed on the opponent's hands and arms.....
This basic difference makes sense in light of the discussion of weather one weapon has advantages over another. The
question gets down to one of: "would compound fractures of the hand or forearm take a man out of the fight?" If we confine
ourselves to the standard ASP technique of striking the major muscle groups & not looking for a broken bone then baton
strength and weight become close to paramount. Note: the broken bone issue is "cleaned up" in the presentation.
Both are safe in that both would most likely not result in a fatality (possible shock issues with compound fractures...if you kept
on beating the pulp and broken bones over and over). The techniques may both employ a Red Man but generally the
Monadnock places speed and a broken bone in the hand/arm as the goal in the initial response. Any follow up from there is
user's choice.
Thus we see a distinct divergence in steel baton training. Source sited from NIJ, NBJ Training Certification Evaluation Practices
Board 1998, ASP Inc., & Monodnock Police Training Council. As well as comparisons of 4 hour basic courses, one day
Instructor's course Evaluations Committee: NIJ 1998.
Jacks Complete August 7th, 2007, 03:43 PM

Charles, that's interesting stuff.
If someone was high enough, then a broken handbone isn't going to do much to them pain wise, but it prevents them from
actually doing a fat lot. If your fingers aren't working, you can't grab a collar or pull a gun.
Strong blows to the thigh muscle would cause collapse of the leg, even without the pain compliance aspect, and you would be
less likely to get arrested for a wounding offence, if no bones were broken.
Tough snap decision to make when under duress, though. If they are holding a knife, breaking the hands is the way to go, I
think, but otherwise, it might be worst thinking for a moment before acting. And, if you don't have the time to think, then it's
self-defence in it's purest form, so get on with it!
nbk2000 August 7th, 2007, 11:47 PM

The ASP and Mondanock police courses have less to do with effectiveness and everything with liability.
Not what I'd be aiming for. ;)
You want two-handed bayonet thrusts and full batting swings to the skull, jaw, throat, base of neck, clavicle, knee joint, spine,
coccyx, nuts, and kidneys.
A heavy steel bat/on does the job quick and quiet. :)
Charles Owlen Picket August 8th, 2007, 10:15 AM

The ASP and Mondanock police courses have less to do with effectiveness and everything with liability.
Right on the money! From a realistic perspective an instructor will possibly delve into a quick kill. The steel baton gets thinner
and thinner and thus is very fast in motion (with mass times velocity, etc). The quick kill supposedly is the corner of the eye
when facing the skull of the opposition. This impacts the area of the brain in a manner most effective for a very fast follow up
in the same manner or cervical spine, etc.
Depending on the audience and the location the instructor may delve into these subjects as the stick will kill very easily. Don't
look for this sort of info to be delivered to the San Fransisco PD. But it may be spoken of in Fuck-Your Sister Arkansas or
Burning Nigger Arizona.
lwtch32 May 26th, 2008, 06:04 AM

RE: Expandable Batons?
Yup seconds for the Casco ba tons they are worth the money. A bouncer mate of mine had the cheap Checz copy o f the
baton and they don t la st su ffer from bending and difficult to retract afterwa rds. For this reason my mate prefers the Casco or
maybe a sturdy (heavy) solid police bato n they ll put the man down!
I ve heard good things about the Mon adnock ba tons a lso.
BTW: I have a PDF of the Monadnock Baton training manual. Since I am a newbie here I could email it to a member here to
upload to the FTP for everyone. PM if anyone is interested.
lwtch32 May 27th, 2008, 08:41 AM

I've uploaded the Monadnock Manual (0.5mb pdf) to rapidshare if anyone is interested:
http://rapidshare.com/files/117987398/fs1203.rar.html
nuclearattack June 4th, 2008, 06:09 AM

tactical batons are a very good close combat weapons but you need to be skilled to use them.
i suggest you to follow a martial art where you can study this kind of weapon...escrima is completely dedicated on this short
baton.
i have two of them just like in escrima fighting.
Jacks Complete June 4th, 2008, 05:23 PM

Upped to FTP as "Monadnock Expandable Baton training manual from lwtch32 (upped by JC).rar"
It is the paper form of the training manual, rather than being anything to do with maintenance. Pretty basic stuff if you are
familiar with any martial arts, but very useful as a refresher, and also to know exactly what the user will think when you do
certain things.
I should probably note that batons are now illegal in the UK. As far as I know, only a sub-3" bladed single edged knife or a
kubutan can be carried. However, I'm no longer sure about even those minor exceptions being something you can actually do
legally, as opposed to something you might get away with if stopped. Anyone know better? I'm pretty up on the gun laws, but
these asshats in power tweak the law every day to remove some freedom or other.
Charles Owlen Picket June 5th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I have a little idiosyncratic information that may be of interest on this subject. There are actually two major companies,
Monadnock & ASP that dominate the market as we know. ASP had continually used a slightly thicker gage material
(USS51A1021) l but the steel can take a bend. Monadnock uses a slightly thinner material that is tempered as a spring (it's
actually bicycle steel - Tange Infinity, or it's US equivalent I believe). So that the techniques eventually lent themselves to the
individual nature of either a steel whip or a single handed baton in their published literature & training classes.
If (the training is) compared side by side you'll see the difference in tactical approach even though the same parameters are
maintained (no head shots, bla, bla, bla). The other weird little nuance is that Casco is owned by Monadnock & it's materials
are the same EVEN though they don't charge the same high mark-up.
nuclearattack June 7th, 2008, 05:52 AM

Well, i had a quick look to the pdf on tactical batons, good stuff for beginners.
Lot of principles are directly taken from wing chun "lat sao".
inkhead June 16th, 2008, 04:30 AM

A flexible/expandable baton is very, very lethal. With a 'angry' swing at the side of the head, you'd kill just about anyone. If
you do plan to carry a baton the biggest thing will be showing restraint in the use of it. It's MUCH more dangerous than you
would think. So don't go beating anyone with it like it's a stick you picked up in the yard. It vietnam assassinations would be
carried out with asp style batons and even rolled up newspapers done just right...
Just remember if you do carry one, and you are attacked you get angry and start swinging odds are high you'll kill the person
when one hit was more than enough to put them out/down for a while.
Ofc Dunny June 16th, 2008, 12:52 PM

In my opinion the ASP expandable baton is a good self defense weapon. The side handled (PR-24) baton is also a very good
weapon, and it can also be purchased in an expandable version (by Monadnock around $100 US) for concealment. See
www.galls.com . The expandable baton does have some problems though. I have seen it used on individuals to no effect by
officers who know what they are doing with it. One individual was even sprayed with O.C. (Oleoresin Capsicum %5) Spray with
no effect, before he was hit nine times with a baton. He then knocked the baton out of the officer's hands. He was subdued
and taken to jail.
If you have a baton... Practice. In training we are taught the three directions to deploy are up and away, down and away, and
toward your target.(IN HIS FACE if necessary.) You are trained to avoid head and spine shots unless lethal force becomes
necessary.
A good Maglight is also good to carry as a defensive weapon. I actually became pretty good at throwing them. At 10 yards you
can put it through a peice of plywood. Either a 3 or 4 D-cell is good for this.
Charles Owlen Picket June 27th, 2008, 11:28 AM

If anyone has ever attended a steel baton class there is a cardinal rule for offensive technique. There is also the "below the
neck / no head shots" caution that is mandated to as to cause the guy to think before he starts doing his thing.
The cardinal rule is strike where skin is closest to bone. {...And we have a winner....!} Who guessed it? Impact weapons work
well if some simple shit is followed. Learning to put your WEIGHT BEHIND A BLOW is vital. However, when you put your weight
behind any blow, it will slow that response. So we have a paradox; do you need speed in response or do you need a "put e'm
down" shot? Well the 1st start-up should generally be for speed but not every time. If the fuck doesn't see it coming....it
matters not a bit... (sucker punch).
Has anyone played with a Red Man? In a full out "slash and slam" on an advancing individual, a fit 20-something year old
individual has about 3 full minutes before he starts getting a bit sluggish. An older gent has about 60 seconds. If you can't do
what's needed in that time, God Help You.
I would be very curious to see a documented instance of an individual getting stuck with a steel baton and not going down. I'm
not talking about someone getting stuck on the buttocks and thighs, but getting struck by an experienced individual who has
used that thing for real before.
Here are the REAL instructional agenda for a intro class from xxxx xxxxxxxx xx xxxxxxx***.
* Open the baton close to the body by whipping toward the leg downward; keep the fucking thing close to the owner. Begin the
attack or defense with the item at an advantage to YOU not to the shit-head.
* Strike where skin is closest to bone.
* Go for the hands, forearms, upper arms/elbow initially as it can be a fight stopper with minimum damage.
* Learn to put your weight into the blow: generally through the "second section" of the baton to break collar bone, upper arm,
ribs, etc.
* A skilled opponent will attempt to get IN CLOSE to you, you need to keep the opponent on the periphery; don't let anyone -
fighting a "range weapon", get close - use the range advantage.
* If you need to "close" with the opponent, use butt-stroke and knees.
* Lethal shots are head in line with the top of the ears. Cervical vertebrae shots with your weight behind the blow. There really
aren't too many lethal shots.
* Blows to the thighs, meat of the deltoid, pectorals, and buttocks will result in little debilitating damage except a blood blister
that photographs very well. Strike where skin is closest to bone.
* Always keep moving, to the best of your ability; try not to stay stationary.
* Look at the WHOLE opponent; NOT at the place you are going to strike.
* IF you want the fight to stop, TELL the goof ball to stay down. Pain may not catch up with an intoxicated person until he is
quite severely injured. Talk to him!
* Do not "stab" with a retractable baton.
See, it's like a "12 step program" ? :)
*** If you want further info: PM me and explain what you need. The source IS very valid. I may choose not to refer directly &
that's my right.
Alexires June 28th, 2008, 02:33 AM

Has anyone played with a Red Man?
For some reason, I don't think you are talking about an Indian.....or tobacco. Care to elaborate for those of us that haven't
played with a Red Man?
Charles Owlen Picket June 28th, 2008, 09:02 PM

A "Red Man" is a suit of sorts made of high density foam, plastic, some aluminum, etc. It covers the body like armor and has
a large, well made helmet. It was a concept-training idea started up by two brothers and I think they couldn't keep the patent.
Anyway....One guy gets dressed up in the "Red Man" suit and the other felllow attempts to knock the fuck out of him as he
advances: REPEATEDLY!
The dynamics, Methodology & techniques change and the idea is to simply "FEEL" what it's like to REALLY STRIKE AT A HUMAN,
MOVING AS A HUMAN DOES. THIS IS PERHAPS ONE OF THE MOST ELEMENTALLY REALISTIC METHOD OF TRAINING WITH AN
IMPACT WEAPON EVER DEVISED AS IT ALLOWS TOTALLY FULL CONTACT WITH TOTAL VARIATION IN SCENARIO AND TIME-LINE.
Most everyone tires so quickly, that they are stunned that they cannot maintain their aerobic level of performance. That is
perhaps one of the first lessons; that when you REALLY are knocking the fuck out of someone, that it's hard work!
The next thing that most everyone freaks about is that you better keep moving or the Red Man is going to get you! He is
often armed with a rubber knife that delivers a chalk line or smudge or a rubber stick that also marks with chalk.*** It is NOT
easy to keep from getting chalked up.
The concept to to actually FEEL what it's like to strike at a human, full force, full follow-through. With a Red Man....you can.
And the training is so intense you feel like you've never felt outside of a serious encounter. You even get your adrenaline up -
because there are a few "tricks" to get you "up there".
It's really fun. You'd like it so much; you'd get addicted. The "Red Man" is a name brand for a variety on the same theme.
The suits are quite expensive as they REALLY allow for full contact with a baseball bat, pipe, etc. They are made VERY well.
*** There are some VERY well made "rubber" weapons now that are weighted and deliver marks. Most firearms stuff is
Simunition stuff or wax bullets. Retention is with a red or blue weighted plastic weapon, etc, etc. I can't remember the names
of the good knives. But the red or blue firearms are common-place training stuff.
Alexires June 29th, 2008, 12:27 AM

That is fucking excellent. What I have found is that I have never really had to mess someone up after I started martial arts
and this is both a good and a bad thing. Good, because I don't really want to attract trouble, but bad because you never know
how good you are, how effecting what you are doing is, and if it will work when the adrenaline is flowing.
It might not be so hard to make such a suit. Some high density rubber, some aluminium and a wetsuit might be all you need.
Motorbike helmets are good for bashing at, although not soft enough for you to use your hands.
Worth a think about, anyway. Most of the stuff like that is rather expensive when all it is is just a suit with some protection
stuff that anyone with brains and some perseverance could make.
Thanks for the post Charles!
ady1989 October 4th, 2008, 05:34 PM

My weapons of choice that I carry with me at night are my full sized KaBar and a knockoff extendable baton. It's 8'' folded and
21'' extended. I got the thing for $20. It's nice and solid, it has a foam grip and a nice sheath that I keep attached to my
backpack strap. I almost never have my KaBar because I don't want to kill somebody.
A security guard spotted me a while ago and shined a flashlight in my direction. I hugged the ground and didn't move, while
slowly taking the baton out. Once he got close enough I stood up and whipped it open. He ran away even though he probably
had 30 lb on me and seemed fit. These thing are intimidating but I'm not a weak guy either. I never had to actually hit
someone with it but I'm willing to bet it will break bones in a single hit.
Killy October 13th, 2008, 08:55 PM

Batons can be used with temporarily glued small mirror like improvised device for looking around corners
Shank November 26th, 2008, 11:36 PM

Tactical batons are very effective weapons. I have a ASP and a cheap Chinese copy and either one will do enormous damage
when used correctly.
The chinese knockoff is really crappy but in a pinch it's still quite functional. When choosing one to buy, pick up each one, whip
it open (if the store will allow you) and hold it up, perpendicular to the floor. Shake your hand and if it fold back into itself due
to the vibration, choose another and and do the same test until you find one that will not immediately fold. Of course the ASP
are really much better and will stay locked open.
I would suggest Filipino Martial Arts as a good system for learning how to use a tactical baton. But take time out to choose
which FMA system to study.
When training, focus on gaining the following skills:
1. Using the bottom of the weapon in close range. You have to prepare for the possibility that you may be rushed and you
won't be able to maintain the distance between you and the attacker. Even a 21" baton needs room to work effectively but with
practice you can still take out an attacker at extreme close range with the weapon. Also, practice grappling with it in both the
open and closed position. There are many ways to apply pressure and locks with the baton.
2. Training for power. A regular class in a good FMA school will develop accuracy but you need to learn to generate enough
power for that fight-stopping strike. I suggest stacking tires and using it as a target. Hit the stack but try to go for follow
through strikes instead of whipping strikes, but do train to do both kinds. Just be careful with getting carried away with tire
training. It's easy to go ape on it and get wrist and elbow injuries. Go slow and build it hand and arm strength. With enough
practice you'll be able to develop quick and powerful strikes.
joffe November 27th, 2008, 10:39 AM

Am I the only one who doesn't like collapsible batons? As far as I can see they have two advantages; 1. they're collapsible
and thus easily hidden. 2. the expansion of one can have a certain psychological effect, and might prevent the situation from
escalating.
Those of you who has a quality baton like an ASP, could try to hit with maximum force a heavy bag 10 or 20 times. My bet is
that your ASP is pretty screwed up. OK, so you don't have hit the bad guy more than 10 or 20 times, but practicing with one
can be pretty expensive.
Now, find the point of balance. Somewhere around the grip, right? So according to the laws of physics, a straight,evenly
balanced wooden stick should generate more power than an ASP. So, if the concealability isn't a factor, why not stick with a
stick? (pun not intended).
Shank November 27th, 2008, 11:22 AM

I used my cheapo tactical baton to practice opening from concealed carry and moving immediately to strikes but most of the
training I do is with a regular FMA baston cut down to 21". I also have a heavier hardwood stick cut down to the same length
and I use that for conditioning.
I would discourage using the actual baton for striking practice unless you have developed forearm and shoulder strength doing
FMA or some other weapon system. I got tendonitis when I got crazy and started using a pipe for training. It would be far
better to get more quality training time with plain rattan rather than using metal or something heavy to strike with.
Like all weapons, the tactical baton has its weaknesses and the user has to train to counteract them. The biggest
disadvantage is that you'll need distance to get the weapon's major feature onto a target. Which is my I strongly recommend
training for the situation when the attacker closes the distance and jams your response. This need for space also affects the
tactical baton's effectiveness against a trainer knife attacker. You better be ready to defend up close because the knife
attacker will want to close the gap and get his blade close to you.
festergrump November 27th, 2008, 11:40 AM

I'm not sure I understand why you would think the baton would be messed up by hitting a bag 20 times, or even 1000 times.
Not to be rude in any way, but my guess is you have never owned one of good quality like an ASP. I'm sure you are right that
if you bash something hard like a tree a zillion and one times you could screw up your baton, but for the most part it'll be fine
unless used in a manner in for which it was not intended to be used (bashing people only). Replacing your bag might get
costly, OTOH. Practice on homemade sandbags maybe?
There are people in the world who use knives as screwdrivers, pistols as hammers, and women as punching bags... but if
these things are used as intended by "the manufacturer" they will provide a lifetime of service unless cheap and/or defective.
You get what you pay for always, and IMHO the ASP rules the roost qualitywise in batonland.
Truth is, if you use your collapsable baton only once to get you out of a jam, it was well worth the money you spent on it. Buy
a new one if you need to, but I highly doubt it would be necessary.
BTW, The fulcrum of mine is right at the forend of the handle as you guessed, but I am unsure of how this would diminish the
effectiveness of the weapon at all unless you intended to play comic book hero "Daredevil" and throw it like he does his
truncheon. Again there comes into play that intended use thing...
The advantage #1 you list is the only reason I can see a collapsable baton being needed. But then walking around my neck of
the woods with a baseball bat or even a tonfa or "club" of any sort will attract the wrong kind of attention by both ends of the
spectrum of folks you may encounter.
Advantage #2 mentioned IMHO should never be relied on by anyone who values their life at all in a defensive situation. If my
baton comes out of it's holster outside of my property it's getting used, positively and without question, at least if I can help
it. Brandishing or posturing is as useless as chestbeating. Tarzans galore on gunboard everywhere across the internet, but I
should hope very few here at RS... We're too damn smart for that. ;)
joffe November 27th, 2008, 01:11 PM

I'm not sure I understand why you would think the baton would be messed up by hitting a bag 20 times, or even 1000 times.
Not to be rude in any way, but my guess is you have never owned one of good quality like an ASP.
A while ago I worked with a security company that issued ASPs to its security guards, I was part of a training team that among
other things taught the use of batons to them. No ASP survived unscathed a training session with me and the heavy bag. The
problems we (the training team and the security guards) had with them were as follows; they bent, they didn't collapse when
bent, they didn't open when they should if they were bent. The last point is IMHO rather important.
Truth is, if you use your collapsable baton only once to get you out of a jam, it was well worth the money you spent on it. Buy
a new one if you need to, but I highly doubt it would be necessary.
That was my point too, it will probably survive the beating you give the bad guy. But I like to practice with what I carry, and
practicing with an ASP that breaks down as often as we experienced is going to cost you.
BTW, The fulcrum of mine is right at the forend of the handle as you guessed, but I am unsure of how this would diminish the
effectiveness of the weapon at all
That question was rhetorical, I already knew the answer. I didn't say it wouldn't make it an ineffective weapon, but the fact that
the fulcrum (cool word, never heard it before) is way back will decrease the power with which you can hit (this is hard to explain,
but then English is not my first language) it, compared to a straight stick where the fulcrum is in the middle or somewhere in
front. So the ASP does not have any advantage there.
The advantage #1 you list is the only reason I can see a collapsable baton being needed. But then walking around my neck of
the woods with a baseball bat or even a tonfa or "club" of any sort will attract the wrong kind of attention by both ends of the
spectrum of folks you may encounter.
Then that's a perfect reason for carrying one. But if push comes to shove, I'd rather have a straight baton, or a solid walking
stick than a collapsible baton. The walking stick might be an option in your area.
Advantage #2 mentioned IMHO should never be relied on by anyone who values their life at all in a defensive situation.
I know, that's why I used words like "can" and "might".

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > R PG's with Nakkas Kno3 sorbitol m otors
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View Full Version : RPG's with Nakkas Kno3 sorbitol motors
radar October 27th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 2 : 1 8 P M

W h e n I h a v e looked back a few posts I noticed m any posts about rocket launchers with explosive warheads and such. In none
o f t h e m d i d I n o t i c e a n y o n e m entionin g Aerotech com posite motors which one can buy up to g80 without certification or
N a k k a ' s h o m e m a d e m otors m ade out of pvc and sim p l e h a n d t o o l s u p t o I - 5 6 0 . I h a v e p e r s o n a l l y m a d e N a k k a ' s m o t o r s a n d
used Aerotech m o t o r s a n d I d a m n sure that they would propel a useful charge of HE to their target. I found the PVC m otors to
be very reliable and incredibly powerful. I have measured the thrust on the amateur rocke t m o t o r s a n d f o u n d t h e m very
consistent with Nakka 's test results. So... if you 're thinking of dream ing up an RPG, i'd definately recom m e n d t h o s e a s t h e
m otor.
nbk2000 October 27th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 9 : 1 7 P M

W e need URLs.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
Bander October 28th , 2001, 01:40 AM

Old Addresss: Richard Nakka's Motors (http://mem bers.aol.com/ricnakk/index.htm l)
and the address the site is m o v i n g t o o
New Address: R ichard Nakka's Motors (http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/)
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Round the firewall, Out the m o d e m , Past the server, Through the router, Down the wire, NOTHING BUT NET.
[This message has been edited by Bander (edited October 28, 2001).]
SofaKing October 29th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 7 : 0 8 P M

http://m e m bers.aol.com/Sspacepyro/PVCRM/buildyown.htm l is a good site as well
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W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
simply RED Novem ber 1st, 2001, 06:21 PM

I bought a hobby rocket engine, it is sm all, 6 cm long, 1,5 cm diameter. I m ade a rocket with it but instead of parachute i put
acetone peroxide(some grams). I haven't launched it yet. I can't test it in the town....
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LIFE SUCKS... DON'T LET IT BITE!!!
SMA G 12B/E5 Novem ber 17th, 2001, 08:52 PM

E x a m ine a sectional photo of a RPG-8 round. T he system is m ore com plecated than a warhead+motor system . The round is
propelled from the launcher, by a prim ary charge, to a distance safe to the gunner. At that time a setback ignited delay ignites
the rocket motor which is front-vented by m ultiple nozzels. The m o t o r s p r o p o s e d f o r e x p e d i e n t R P G ' s m ight not be applicable.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Model can n o n p l a n s ?
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View Full Version : Model cannon plans?
Energy84 Novem ber 26th, 2001, 09:35 PM

Does anybody have, or know where to get some plans for a working mod el cannon? I want to build one now because I'll be
taking machining in school soon so I'll be able to build it "properly". http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/biggrin.gif
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why oh why didn't I take the b lue pill?
EventHorizon Novem ber 27th, 2001, 08:26 AM

Library. Find the plans for the type of cannon you are lo oking for and scale everything down to the size you want to make it.
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" C h a n c e f a v o r s a p r e p a r e d m ind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54
Zach Novem ber 27th, 2001, 03:07 PM

W h a t s i z e o f m o d e l a re you looking at building? What type of cannon are you going for? Breach loader? Ca rbide(tam p e d B P ) ?
Are you going to shoot projectiles or ju st wadding? What types of materials are you thinking of using? Skill level? What type of
m a c h i n e s d o y o u h a v e a c c s e s t o o ? ( m e t a l l a t h e a n d m illing m achine, surface grinder... if you know)
I a s k b e c a u s e i v e s e e n i t d o n e s e v e r a l t i m es, several different ways.
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Energy84 Novem ber 27th, 2001, 09:41 PM

W ell, I don't know exactly what I want yet. I know I wanna build a m odel cannon, but I don't know what kind. Here's m y
situation. I've always wanted to have one of these model cannons (since m y old school principle told me about his) and now I
think I m ay have the opportunity. I recently switched schools so now I can take all these metalworking and machining classes
http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/sm ile.gif As far as I know, they have the whole shm a b a n g : s t e e l l a t h e , m illing
m achine, grinders, drill presses, welders (m ig, tig and a rc), torches (acetelyne and plasm a ) , s o m e s o r t o f p l a s m a cutter thing
that you can draw a d ark, 2D object on paper and it'll cut it out for you, there's also a C.N.C. lathe...
That's pretty much everything I can rem ember, but I think that'll be plen ty. For the barrel, I was thinking of just using one o ff
of an old gun, along with the breech. Either that, or I was thinkin' of the Sten MKII plans I got, mabye build that receiver and
m ounting it... hehehe, that'd be kool, like a model AAA gun, yeah, and I could shoot down my frie n d s m odel airplane... ok,
b u t a n y w a y z , d o e s a n y o n e e l s e h a v e s o m e s u g g e s t i o n s f o r m e ? O h , a n d I'd like it to be a breech loader, kindof a no-brainer
now, but kee p in m ind, that's what I want. It might be easier to build a m u z z l e l o a d e r a n d j u s t u s e t h o s e p r e f a b p y r o d e x
pellets....
Anyone?
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why oh why didn't I take the b lue pill?
twinkle Novem ber 30th, 2001, 04:34 AM

here are two links one is of a 10 gauge blank firing cannon with a breech block and the other one is about carbide cannons
(maybe not directly what you are looking for but nice info) on the site of the 10 gauge cannon there is not realy a p lan but
photo's on how it was build bu t I think it gives a good impression on how to build one.
of the carbide cannons are plans .
http://www.ray-vin.com /m u s e u m / m us_idx.shtm l
http://www.ray-vin.com /m u s e u m / 1 0 g a . s h t m l

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Pistol crossbows - your opinions
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View Full Version : Pistol crossbows - your opinions
J November 27th, 2001, 01:31 PM

I'm thinking about getting a pistol crossbow in the near future. The exact model is the 75lb pull Barnett Magnum, sold at http://www.xbows.co.uk/pistol.htm amongst other
places.
I would mainly be using it for target practice (nothing living), and as 'a useful thing to have'.
I'd be interested in people opinions and experiences with these. How accurate are they at moderately close ranges (10 to 50m)? How powerful are they compared to the
average .22 rimfire pistol (not very, I assume)? At what range does wind become a major problem? Any info would be gratefully appreciated.
Bare in mind that I can't afford a decent full sized cross-bow, neither do I want one (at the moment).
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Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
DaRkDwArF November 27th, 2001, 05:28 PM

they do alot more damage to a target within range then a .22 (larger projectile), but a .22 is more accurate and has far better range... get the aluminium bolts, make
explosive rounds
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Do or Do Not, there is no Try
Anthony November 27th, 2001, 05:36 PM

60... I think the 75lb one I bought in the US was about 20, if that. Although it doesn't look as high quality as the one in the picture. In fact, it's this one:
http://www.xbows.co.uk/images/Sprite%2047.jpg
With a 75lb limb in it! One difference being mine has a foot stirrup.
Accuracy - 1/2"-3/4" @ 5m if you're good with open sights. Forget 50m these things hit the ground after about 50ft (they loose speed amazingly quickly). The pointed stainless
bolts I have penetrate about 3/8"-1/2" into a catalouge. But they'll smash short sections of 3/4" pine baton. If you get plastic finned bolts, you'll go through loads of them as
the plastic often snaps where it goes into the Al body.
Fun to piss about with (dangerous close up though) but no serious target shooting in them.
BTW mine developed a air trigger that nearly got me a few times (just stinging fingers thankfully), fixed it by grinding the posts the cocked string rests on at an angle.
Edit: I wouldn't say they were much more powerful than a 12ft/lb air rifle. BTW apparently you can work out the ft/lbage of a bow simply by multiplying the draw weight in
pounds by the draw length in feet - apparently.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 11-27-2001).]
13 November 28th, 2001, 11:43 AM

Try this place www.rbamfordguns.co.uk (http://www.rbamfordguns.co.uk) (order a catalogue) I'm thinking of getting one of the uzis from xbows sister site,
www.airpistol.co.uk (http://www.airpistol.co.uk)
Mr Cool November 30th, 2001, 07:12 AM

A 155 gram bolt going at 150 ft/sec has an energy of 3.5 Joules, which is the same as 5.3 ftlb. (Correct me if I'm wrong...)
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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.
SawedOff8gaugeman November 30th, 2001, 08:46 AM

Mr Cool: I think you are wrong, because when compared to a .22 rifle (100-150 J of muzzle energy)... well...
And 3.5 J is about 2.58 ft-lb, because 1 J = 0.737562149277 ft-lb.

Ah yes, it's 157 Joules - I used the velocity, not the velocity squared!!
Doesn't that mean you'd need a licence for one in the UK? Concealable AND over 20 times the legal limit for a non-FAC pistol?
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J November 30th, 2001, 12:25 PM

No license is required, you just have to be over 18.
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)

I believe that 155gm is the weight of a full size (18"?) bolt used in full size bows, might even be a solid shaft one.
Mini crossbow bolts are about 7" long and weigh (guess) 10gm, maybe a few grams more.
BoB- November 30th, 2001, 07:10 PM

I once used a pistol crossbow to hunt, I missed horribly and got a body shot, the rabbit ran away and I havent seen that bolt since. Against a human it would be easy to get a
headshot, for target practice they suck.
nbk2000 November 30th, 2001, 09:25 PM
Worthless toys.
Use your money for something more useful.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
Kdogg November 30th, 2001, 11:47 PM

I had as wussie ass 50lb one, & the power for such as small one amazed the hell out of me. If I were a cripple, I would hunt with a bigger one anyday!
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Monkeyman
Ropik May 4th, 2004, 08:44 AM

... get the aluminium bolts, make explosive rounds
What is your recipe for explosive rounds? Standart - get a bolt with hollow body - fill with BP - cap with percussion primer? Or something less common, like RDX/DDNP mix in
place of BP ;) ?
Or you can get a small syringe, epoxy plunger in the bolt(it fits if it's right size of syringe. You must cut off the flat thing on top of the plunger, however), fill the syringe with
liquid poison, put a plunger bolt in the syringe and...
Do not store for safety reasons.
aikon May 4th, 2004, 09:12 AM

I had the chance to shoot with the barnett commando pistol crossbow last summer. It's accuracy is fairly good within a range of 10 to 15 meters. Shooting beyond 25meters
was nearly impossible bechause the wind has scotched that. The power is sufficient to hunt squirrels and birds but I wouldn't consider it to be a serious weapon against human
targets. It's a fun toy for relaxing and hunting small game.
$0meb0dy May 4th, 2004, 12:08 PM

I have a 80lb pistol crossbow,
The accuracy is quite good, but after about 20 meter it's not to good.
Don't buy the plastic bolts with metal point, but the Al shaft ones.
The power is amazing for there size and the trigger is really sensitive, so don't put your finger on the trigger before you have your target in sight, but I don't know how it is
with that crossbow you wan't to buy.
There worthless if you wan't to hunt with it, but they are fun.
Ropik May 4th, 2004, 12:17 PM

Yes... When pistol crossbows would be good, effective weapons by itself, very few people would be interested in making special ammo, like explosive or poisoned. And more
people would use it as weapon. Why only few individuals are using pistol crossbows? Because they are less effective than silenced firearm. It makes sense. But if you must
utilize this weapon, then explosive bolts with headshot can accomplish this(I think neck would be better, but soft tissue most probably make a dud from exp. round and it is
rather small target). Also only crossbows with 70+ pounds of draw force have power which worth considering as weapon. If nothing better is available, you can melt pieces
from carpet knife blade into plastic bolt to act as wound-widener and generally make bolt wound even more painful.
Bigfoot May 5th, 2004, 05:18 PM

I have to concur with NBK. I made the mistake of buying one of those idioteses about 10 years ago. Played with it for a week, couldn't get any real accuracy beyond 10 feet.
My air pistol was easily accurate to much farther out (Crosman 1077, same size as the crossbow). I finally tried launching a few bolts at more distant targets, more to watch
flight characteristics than anything (these were the aluminum bolts, too). After seeing WHY the accuracy was so abysmal, I put the thing away, haven't touched it since.
Conclusion: If you REALLY HAVE TO have a pistol crossbow, look in the PMJB and build your own. Save some coin.
festergrump May 9th, 2004, 10:17 PM

The latest posters seem to have a clue... these things are toys (and yes, worthless). I have to ask myself why anyone would consider buying one of these pieces (other than
for amusing their children. I bought one, though... :( my daughter gets a kick out of it, today :rolleyes: ). Is it the quietness? Then buy a REAL one and an accurate one, at
that, if you don't opt to build it yourself (Not all that challenging.). If it's for concealment, do yourself a favor and get some darts (that's right... the darts you play for beers
with at the local pub. You'll hit your target better and definitely do more damage!). You cannot easily conceal a crossbow pistol!
But I quote Kdogg from his post late in 2001, "If I were a cripple, I would hunt with a bigger one anyday!".
Yeah, well, in 2004 I'm NOT, and I HAVE. Alot is changing since Kdogg wrote that. Many states of the US are allowing crossbows to be used by non-cripples in bow season.
Check your local gaming authority.
Truth is: A good compound bow(and some re-curves) in the right hands blows any crossbow out of the picture altogether as far as distance and damage. (I'd be hardpressed to
answer whether I'd rather be shot with a 300 Win Mag or hit with a hunting arrow from the right bowman! It's about the same damage, but the 300 mag will reach out much
further to touch you! BTW, complete "pass-thru" in elk, moose, and even bear is a pretty common affair for those of you unfamiliar with bowhunting).
If you want a better TOY to plink the little tree-rats (squirrels) out of the hardwoods, then I reccomend a good slingshot or "wrist-rocket"...
Corona May 10th, 2004, 12:32 PM

Anybody has any experience of using ball-bearings for these things (or for bigger crossbows)? How much pounds of pull would make .40 ball bearing (available almost free as
scrap) turn real scary? If anyone has any idea... I would love to know.
Got my inspiration from here
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3961
Mentions ball-bearing crossbows in some detail.
Jacks Complete May 22nd, 2004, 09:51 AM

I couldn't see anything about ball bearing crossbows in that thread.
I think you need to design it a bit differently, as otherwise you won't get the BB through the gap where the front sight is mounted. I think you would fuck your bow up
completely if that happened.
Corona May 23rd, 2004, 04:33 PM

"I couldn't see anything about ball bearing crossbows in that thread."
You would if you had downloaded and read the book. :-) *Its in the book* Zaibatsu was offering. Well worth getting a copy.
Yes, I'm aware you have to design it different, and I'm pretty sure I've solved that part. I was asking about something else.
tdog49 June 5th, 2004, 09:58 PM

A much better option is a good take-down recurve. You can carry a bow and 12 arrows in a case little larger than a take-down pool cue. A little practice (ok---A lot actually)
and you can use it for any game animal in the states. Self-defense and para-military applications also. A 50lb bow matched with the right broadheads will pass thru a full grown
moose at 25 yards. They will also penetrate most "soft" kevlar. I can keep 12 arrows touching each other at 30 yds w/my bow.
Tdog49
alf August 26th, 2004, 06:43 PM

I have one Barnett like yours. Nice to play, but bulky and strings break very often (and are quite expensive).
Psychlonic August 28th, 2004, 03:53 AM

Personally I prefer a good old compound bow over a crossbow, be it pistol or full sized. Sure, it takes more practice to learn, and the highest your average person can go
without getting tired quickly is 90 pounds. The trade off is that you can reload extremely quick, can shoot longer arrows (good for explosives), generally quieter, and IMO a
compound bow is more fun to shoot. I also find them to be very accurate within 60 yards with some practice, and for some reason I feel much more comfortable shooting it
than my crossbow.
On main topic discussion however, I think pistol crossbows are pretty stupid. The short bolt it uses coupled with the pistol's short frame make it inaccurate as a blindman
pissing. If you want a crossbow, get a full sized one, and try to get something over 100 dollars, it's well worth the investment.
raptor1956 August 28th, 2004, 07:26 PM

IMO an expensive & useless toy with no range or accuracy to speak of. In the small silent weapon category you'd do better with a wrist-braced slingshot using speargun
rubbers and firing 1/2" ball bearings.
MMIV September 17th, 2004, 04:43 AM

why bother...... pistol crossbows would not be as conceable as compared with an sawn-off bolt action .22 because with the P.C (pistol crossbow) the props will be a problem
with concealment and to conceal the bolts as well. but with the .22 it makes more noise but this is solved with a suppressior and u can carry more ammo also.:)
Ropik September 18th, 2004, 01:41 PM

Because sawed-off weapons - even .22 - are HORRIBLY ILEGAL in many countries. Also, I would personally put more trust onto 80-lbs. pistol crossbow than sawed-off .22
because you need to hit your target to do any harm(surprising, isn't it?) and most of the sawed-off weapons are good only for extremely close distances(yes, pistol crossbows
aren't sniper weapons either, but still...). Also, bolt action is too slow for this range - you miss and your opponent will crush your head with lead pipe. When you want sawed-
off .22, use some semi auto for "bullet hose" - watch for too low gas pressure to retain semi auto mode. Read Zips, pipes and pens for more informations about sawed-offs.
THAT Dude September 18th, 2004, 06:49 PM

Pistol crossbows are not conceable,so if you want to go this rout you should buld or bye somthing like a pistol speargun. That would be more conceable,and still be quite.
And use hunting broadheads of course.
rangegal August 7th, 2007, 01:39 AM

I just bought one of those cheap 50lb. pull pistol crossbows for 30$ at a gun store and the plastic cap on one end of the bow that holds the string in place snapped right in half
after about 30 shots. Cheap piece of shit...
They seem like neat toys, and could even be useful for a silent head shot with a good sharp point and a strong bolt. The explosive bolt idea could also be pretty cool. But
personally I think a good slingshot would be more useful and reliable.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Caltrops and other Impediments to
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View Full Version : Caltrops and other Impediments to Movement

As part of the PDF, I've been doing some research on various impediments to restrict an enemies movements that don't use
explosives, hence no mines.
Probably the oldest known example of such devices is the caltrop.
In most cases this is a 4 pointed star made from two pieces of strong wire that are welded together and has the points
sharpened.
This is rather unweildy to make though since it requires a grinder and welding equipment.
So I've come up with a better design. (pictures will be posted later, I'm tired.)
Using a melon scooper as a mold, I molded a half-spherical plaster weight with a 1.5" nailed cast in it with the nail centered in
the plaster.
After some experimentation, I discovered that the caltrop needs to have a small flat surface at the bottom to reliably point up.
The caltrop is 1" diameter at top, 5/8" thick, with a 1.5" nail, 7/8" of which protrudes out the top.
The flat spot on the bottom is the size of a dime.
Used a marker to camoflage it black so it'll blend in the dark.
The caltrop, on tile flooring, tends to roll around in a circle for a few seconds before stopping point up.
On carpet it bounces once or twice.
It usually has the point up, but since the mold isn't perfectly round, but rather has slightly straight sides towards the top, the
caltrop will sometimes sit on its side.
Also, plaster, being of rather light weight, doesn't provide a lot of weight to counter the weight of the nail.
Improvements intended for my next experiment is to use a perfect half sphere mold, and to add small lead shot to the
bottom of the mold before adding the plaster to ensure maximum bottom heaviness.
Also, short cut lengths of hair added to the plaster to add strength and prevent cracking.
All this will enable me to use a longer length of nail, increasing the wounding potential.
The next step after that is mass production because a handful of these isn't really much of anything. Only when you have
enough to cover a road with thousands, or a hallway or stairwell with hundreds, do you then have a REAL barrier.
My idea of mass production involves using half-spheres of either plastic balls or rubber. These halves are laid flat on a board
in staggered rows, then whole being within a frame, perhaps a cake pan or such.
This is filled with wax and allowed to cool.
This is then removed and the halves removed. This leaves an empty space in the shape of the halves in the wax block.
The voids have a small amount of lead shot added, the nail centered, and the plaster added till the void is filled.
After the plaster sets, the caltrops are pulled out. If they can't be pulled out, the wax can be melted and reused to make more
molds.
Assuming a dozen an hour, you could make more than a 150 in a day. Most of that time is waiting for the plaster to set.
If one had the patience and equipment, the caltrops can be improved by soldering on very large fish hooks so that anyone
stepping on them can't remove them easily.
Another easier improvement is to cut a small notch with a hacksaw a little behind the point and to dip the point in fresh horse
shit.
Horse intestines is the natural home of the gas gangrene bacteria. Their shit, when it gets in a wound, causes a very rapid
infection of gas gangrene, necessitating amputation if mega-doses of antibiotics can't bring it under control.
Caltops are best dispensed where a person will literally run into them. A person walking along, watching their step, is in no
danger from them.
But anyone running, having to dodge your fire, taking cover, or unable to see them before it's too late, will become casualties.
Good places to put them is in dark places (obviously), stairwells, hallways, under shallow water (puddles, sewers), around
doorways (out of the sweep of the door), in blind spots that the enemy may seek cover, around corners the enemy is likely to
rush around, and in areas that you won't be using to prevent infiltration.
I'd especially recommend having them in the blind spots around your house, inside of your fence line. A half circle extending
out for a yard from any trees that someone could hide behind, behind any dead cars, tree stumps, well pumps, etc.
Unlike mines, there's no risk of these going of spontaneously and drawing unwanted attention.
And if you presweep the areas you'll be emplacing the caltrops in with a metal detector to remove any metal scrap, you can
then easily recover them with near 100% certainty later on.
Anti-traction agents are another means to impede movement. This can either be liquids that act as lubricants, or solids that
are slippery.
The cheapest sort of slippery solid is the polyethylene shopping bag.
As anyone who's almost broken their back from slipping on one can tell you, they're....slippery.
This is because polyethylene, when rubbing against itself, has a friction co-efficent almost equal to wet ice.
So, collect those plastic bags and lay them flat on the ground. Stepping on them cautiously is safe, but doing it while running
is an invitation to a wheelchair. And imagine the suffering if you covered caltrops with the bags. Oops. That's got to hurt!
Motor oil, used in large amounts, is very slippery too, and can be used on inclines, embankments, and turns to cause vehicles
to wipe out prior to being ambushed.
Used motor oil is free for the taking at oil-change places and behind mechanics shops.
Polyvinyl alcohol, mixed with a 2% solution of borax in water, will form "slime". The same kind of slime that kids play with that
is superslippery. This used to be made under the name "RIOTROL" by Dow.
Also called "Liquid Banana Peel", this stuff makes standing impossible. It'll dry out in a few hours into a white filmy material,
but it can be re-activated simply by rewetting.
The addition of a small percentage of glycerine increases it's staying power before more water is needed.
Any of these is best used where gravity will help things along. Stairways are the best place since a slip here means a very
painful, possibly fatal, fall. And I've never seen SWAT gooners holding the hand rails either. :)
None of the above will work very on rough surfaces like carpet, gravel or textured concrete. Tile, linoleum, or similar work best.
Nets are underappreciated. While a person usually thinks about the net being thrown on top on someone, in this context we're
going to have the net laid down nearly to the ground.
By mounting a net at about shin height on stakes, you make any attempt to suddenly rush you impossible.
This doesn't really work in urban enviroments, but comes into its own in rural areas where the netting can be concealed in tall
grass or shrub.
The net is made of a strong, but light material, like spectra fiber or kevlar.
The "cells" of the net are about a yard or two on a side. This allows a person to takes a step or two before falling down again,
repeatedly.
The net is most effective when used in depth since it'll demoralize them and give you time to engage them. It also hampers
their attempt to retreat.
Nighttime is most effective obviously. And both the oil and net can be enhanced by adding caltrops. Because it's bad enough
to fall, but it's even worse when you fall on a dozen shit smeared nails. ;)
Now what I want from you are your ideas.
PLEASE, try to keep it original and detailed, OK?
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Machiavelli November 28th, 2001, 12:52 AM

Concrete reinforcement wire mesh is very useful for making caltrops. When you cut it you have a whole bunch of cross shaped
wire thingies which just need some bending and maybe sharpening to get you some original badass caltrops.
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Give someone a match and he'll feel warm for a few seconds, set him on fire and he'll feel warm for the rest of his life
FragmentedSanity November 28th, 2001, 02:48 AM

Lo all :)
just a question NBK - how would your coltrops stand up to a car? would a single spike with a plaster base be of any use? or
would the traditional cut and bent mesh be better?
if your after something thats quick to mass produce buy a roll of barbed wire and snip the barbs off = thousands of nasty ass
little stinging devices in very little time - the biggest /thickest barbs you could geet would be best - but the small size and
ease of production means you can spread them over a ifar distance with a reasnobly high denisty. now these arent likley to kill
anyone (unless you put ricin or some other poison on them i spose)but they would certainly slow someone down. and if you
chopped the excess wire up small too and added it into the mini coltrops the person would be more likley to slip and its a
more efficient use of your roll of wire.
later
FS
EventHorizon November 28th, 2001, 09:42 AM

Buy a 50# box of Simplex nails. They come in several lengths I beleive, with a (now) plastic disc around the head. They were/
are used to fasten down tar paper and insulation board. They almost ALWAYS land point up, especially the older metal head
ones. Beleive me, I know. :(
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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
CyclonitePyro November 28th, 2001, 02:59 PM

I've seen a type of foam that you buy in rolls, maybe carpet padding?, it's like a big foam blanket, well, one could stick as
many shit smeared nails as he wishes through the foam and roll it out wherever you please, like a carpet of nails or spikes.
You could make strips out of this too.
You could use good old fashoned trip wire, with some of the above too, ouch.
For slipping you could use plastic beads strewn all over.
Too bad we don't have much younger forum members they could tell us what the good guys(us, of course) do to the bad
guys(swat, FBI,CIA,DEA,INS-if yer a spic)in cartoons, and what that kid does on the those guys in the "Home Alone" movies.
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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited 11-28-2001).]
kingspaz November 28th, 2001, 04:10 PM

this may just be a method of slowing down me but trainers make a good obstacle if theres lots of them. their shape seems to
allow you to twist your ankle easily. in a hallway maybe? i like the net idea. nets are bitches to get through. anybody
remember those big obstacles for stopping tanks? like 3 big bars of metal welded together so whatever way they were turned
they'd still stand. imagine those but smaller with sharpened ends. they would be quick and simple to make. i think they would
be useful to scatter across a road to stop all wheeled vehicles. if they could be made or tubular metal then the puncture would
be instantanious as the air could escape out of the tube. may also be useful to throw a box out of your car in a car chase...
neck height cheese wires around corners where a rush could occur around. swat team rushes round, first guy loses his
head!...sorry i'm kinda grabbing at possibilities here.

You can cut up chicken wire, then bend the crosses to the correct shape, and harden them by heating them red hot with a
propane torch, then dropping them in motor oil.
Using an angle grinder to cut up the chicken wire, touching there heads to bench grinder, then harneding them, you can make
500-1000 daily.
------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Caltrop.jpg
Sorry for the crappy quality, I don't have my scanner installed at the moment.
Hmmm...chicken wire. I'd assume there's a much stronger guage fencing available that's similar? Like for horses or such.
Good idea though if the wire is thick enough.
Concrete mesh should work. Good ideas.
Barbed wire would work too, but you'd have to find the military type that has 2" long barbs. The type available through ag
stores is too small to penetrate Jack Boots, ya know? ;)
But that might work in the right place, like at beaches, public pools, and other places where people aren't wearing shoes, like
third world coutries.
It'd also work against bicycles, so you could close down those annoying yuppie bike trails.
While the plaster on my design will get crushed, the nail would impale a car tire. But nails don't really work all that great
against tires anyways.
For that you need hollow tubes.
If I had hollow tubing, I'd cast it in with a nail in the center. The nail fills up the tube, giving it strength to penetrate the tire,
which crushes the plaster, freeing the nail to be pushed out/thrown clear of the tubing, allowing the air to escape rapidly.
Kingspaz, what are trainers?
The idea is to have a box or bag of caltrops, maybe mixed in with oil?, for tossing behind you to slow up persuing piggies.
The traditional four pointed star needs to be BIG to work against tires, which makes it too large to carry a significant amount
on your person. These are also too large to be likely to be stepped on.
Smaller ones that you can carry with you are too small to penetrate car tires.
How thick is car tire rubber anyways? 1/2" or 1"?
Cheese wire? That sort of thing works great against bikers, but against people running or walking, it's just a cut. Beheading
needs more speed than feet can create.
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CragHack November 28th, 2001, 08:20 PM

caltrips are good if you do not have time to set up the surrounding area. If you know someone is coming and have a few
moments to prepare (that is all it takes) i suggest this. Take duct tape (god i love this stuffhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/smile.gif) and push nails up through the sticky side so when you stick the tape to something the nale points
upwards. To reinforce it, place a couple of strips of duct tape on top of each other so the nail penetrates like 3 or 4 layers of
the tape. But one layer will suffice.
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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
Zach November 28th, 2001, 09:55 PM

Dont bash bike riders. its the only way I am able to get anywhere. some assholes that dont know how to obey laws meant to
keep them safe deserve to be taken out, but the majority of the serious bikers respect you more than you think. laf. you silly
bear, im not a yuppie!
but on topic, american tires (dont know of any differences world wide) are around a half an inch thick. sounds like cake, i
know, just a half inch of rubber. however... most tires are steel-belted with lots of wire in the rubber when formed. (you knew
this NBK!) so make sure your tire puncturing things are strong enough... the police road spike strips are aluminum(!) tubes
remote controlled to flip up and down.
one could also weld "teeth" of steel onto a steel bar, lets say three teeth facing outwards from the middle, every inch or so.
when dropped, they would sort of roll under tires and such... if you can get them to roll straight. i can ask my half bro to see
some of the stuff they use, hes a Sherrif deputy. what also works well is putting those caltrops in an aluminum can or
something that a cop wouldnt think twice about running over... chinese food container, ect. probably not effective during a
chase, but to sabotage oinkers.(not that i'd know anyway)
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[This message has been edited by Zach (edited 11-28-2001).]
Anthony November 29th, 2001, 03:51 AM

Something worth considering is how can you protect yourself against other people using similar vehicle tyre deflating devices?
I'm thinking of that puncture plugging compound that you squirt into your tyres through the fill valve (it's a goo full of fibers).
No coubt it works against solid things that are left stuck in the tyre, but what about cop stingers where the puncturing
impliment doesn't stay in the tyre? What about a hollow tube that does stay in the tyre?
nbk2000 November 29th, 2001, 04:54 AM

The green stuff is called GOOP or SLIME, depending on the retailer. We used it all the time at the repair shop I was at. It
works fine for sealing rims and minor punctures like thorns, but a nail hole (no nail) or hollow tube, it wouldn't do jack shit to
stop the air leaking out.
As for defenses, I've thought of making "brooms" that are made of the steel bristles used by street sweeping machines.
These would stow up inside of the wheel wells, and be dropped down when needed.
The idea is that the steel bristles will drag against the ground and sweep away any spikes or caltrops that may be in the way.
Another might be a rubber roller that would take the spikes instead of the tire.
I'd imagine a combination of roller/broom, in addition to run-flat tires and possibly split tires, would make you virtually
immune to spikes.
The foam pad idea has the advantage of speed, but it'd be too easy to lift it up out of the way, unless you made it adhesive.
And then you have the problem of carrying around a big roll of foam. And what if the hallway is too wide?
I like the strip 'o nails. I've seen steel lath that's about 1/2" wide with holes every 1/2" or less. If small nails were in every
other hole, and the back had a peelable adhesive strip, then you'd have something there.
You could peel off a strip and wind it around a pole to keep people from climbing it, or around a window frame to keep people
out. A strip on every step of a stairway would make for slow going. Ladder rungs, handrails, tops of walls, etc.
BTW, one of my room mates had a guest over, and so I used the opprotunity to test out one of my caltrops. NO nail, just to
see what would happen to the base when driven over.
As expected, the plaster squashed to pieces. But this is a good thing since that means it will break, releasing any penetrator
you may have embedded in it.
There are chemicals known as catalytic depolymerizers that, in minutes quantities (couple of mLs) cause the rubber in the tire
to devulcanize and litterally disintegrate to pieces within a few minutes.
Idea is to have the hollow tube filled with a small amount of this depolymerizer and sealed. When the caltrop is driven over,
the nail punches through the seal, then through the tire, injecting the chemical inside.
Within a couple of minutes, the tire falls apart, leaving the person driving on rims.
I could also imagine making the caltrops like mine, only using AP putty instead of plaster, and inverting the nail into a hollow
tube with a shotgun primer at the base.
When driven upon, nail impales primer, exploding AP putty, thus blowing major sized hole in tire, instantly deflating it.
But that would deviate from the idea of a non-explosive obstacle weapon.
Remeber, anything used needs to be free or damn near so since you'll be needing it in large quantities, stored for long
periods of time, deployable in a moment and slow to recover to delay penetration.
For a quick road barrier, ala "HEAT", you could take steel piping, drill holes every inch or so, alternating the holes 120 degree
each, and then welding large spike nails in the holes.
These sections would be several feet long and attached by short (couple of inches) lengths of heavy chain, with longer sections
of chain at each end to allow chaining to lamp posts or such.
There'd be enough sections to allow a person to cover the entire width of a street and both sidewalks.
The whole assembly could fit in a large tote box and be deployed in a a minute or two. Best used when you have an escape
route already prepared and wish to delay piggie persuit, not when they're already on your ass.
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kingspaz November 29th, 2001, 03:56 PM

nbk, about 'trainers' i forgot most people here are from the US. trainers = sneakers (you do use that word still?)
i think they could make quite an obstacle if scattered around a hallway. hhmmm...maybe tying all the laces together would
also form a sort of net across the ground ready to trap unsuspecting feet.
aaahhh about defense against such things. if you have the money why not buy a car that can survive punctures and still be
quite drivable?
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/images/037.gif
that'll cost a bit but its strong as fuck and can run on flats for 30miles or something.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited 11-29-2001).]
BaDSeeD November 29th, 2001, 08:29 PM

Whats up guys. I've been away for a long time here. But I stopped in for a quick look.
NBK I'm not sure if this fits your 'non-explosive' requirement, but a couple beer bottle molotov's would sure as hell do the trick
to stop someone from chasing you. And could also be used offensively. A pull ignightor on it, just use some saftey matches
around the fuse with the ignitor strip in between them would be an easy light, especially while running. If you were running
through an alley or between houses, fences, etc... it'd sure as hell stop someone from pursuing you on foot. If the bottle were
more fragile too, you wouldnt even have to slow down to break it, just toss it over your shoulder.
As for vehicles, they probably wouldnt do much against a speeding car, but consider that most people wouldnt have the balls
to drive through it anyhow. They might try to swerve around it (crashing hopefully) or just stop totally instead of going through.
Even if none of that happens, it'd be a hell of a distraction, might be enough to let you round that next corner without them
seeing which way you went. But it'd sure buy you a little time.
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BaDSeeD
phyrelord December 2nd, 2001, 07:33 PM

I find that if you hang sinkers from a fishing line about every two feet, then suspend that from a tree you cause a nice wreck
and a cracked up window. The caltrops remind me of something i did when i was younger. We were building our garage and we
had some left over concrete so i filled a few beercans halfway poked a nail through the bottom and left them on the road. The
local drunks who get a kick out of hitting cans didn't like me much that day. To remove small metal objects from the path of
your tires i would use small brushes like you said but i would magnetize them by hooking them up to your car battery. Would
it be possible to lay a wire across the roadway and create an electric pulse that would fry car computers like those things the
police use to disable fleeing cars
PYRO500 December 2nd, 2001, 08:08 PM

Yes, that is possible, but not practical one way I can think of doing that would be to have a large coil of wire and when it is
under the car dump a big capacitor bank on it, that would induce currents in the electrical system of a car messing it up, it
would not be able to be portable though.
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[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]
nbk2000 December 2nd, 2001, 08:42 PM

Magnetics can't be relied on since some spikes are made of aluminum.
Electronic shock is complicated and requires pre-placement. That's why it's not in general police use.
Also, isn't a HUMVEE a tad might too conspicuous for criminal useage?
Fire is a barrier, but it can spread, which may not be a good thing. It eventually burns out, which is also bad if you want lasting
protection. And the risk of setting yourself on fire is bad too.
I've read of bead curtains with fish hooks in them being strung in doorways to snag people. Replace the beads with super thin
kevlar fishing line and you've got a nasty surprise.
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Fingerless December 4th, 2001, 05:27 AM

You guys should consider having snares strung out for foot chases. When running, people will follow a predictable path-the
easiest and shortest one possible, generally. This can be used to your advantage by having pre-strung snares out. Snares are
used by trappers, and are thin steel cable from 1/16" at the thin end to thicker 1/8" snares used for wolves. The snare has a
loop on it and closes very quickly and tightly when something goes through it. I was walking at a leisurely pace through the
woods once and all of a sudden it felt like someone jerked my foot out from underneath of me and I fell flat on my face-my
foot was in a snare. I got out quickly, but it would slow someone down immensely. A 1/16 snare with a cam type of lock on it
(Very hard to get off) staked to a 3 foot piece of rebar driven into the ground and propped up by a piece of 9 gauge wire to
the desired height would be very useful in stopping a pig in the correct conditions. Plus, they are only a buck or so a piece. I
tested this out, and it worked beautifully. When people come home from work from a meat packing plant, they all follow the
same path. They have the grass wore down to mud on the path that they all walk to the plant on every day. Well, I hung up
one of my snares on the trail (The snare was dyed black and the stake was driven clear into the ground-not very easily seen
unless you have a flashlight AND are looking for it) the first victim that came on the trail was snared, and fell flat on his face.
He wasn't even walking that fast. He dropped his cooler and his lunch spilled out. It took him a few minutes to figure out what
he was in and how to get the hell out. So, snares should be useful in some situations. If you want to look at snares search for
"The Snare Shop."
mrloud December 4th, 2001, 05:45 AM

I like the idea of bead curtains with fish hooks in them. They could be rigged so that they are rolled up above the door. They
would drop down when you tug on a string after running through. A weight on the bottom of the strings could make sure they
cant just be brushed aside. Ideally they would be electronically released. Either by you with a remote control or by a burglar
alarm system.
phyrelord December 4th, 2001, 08:16 PM

I was reading about things called "castrators" they consisted of a spike that was drove in the ground, and essentially a barrel
with a pressure plate attached. When the enemy's personnel or vehicles would travel over them the pressure plate would push
on a cartridge and cause it to go off. this would put holes in tires and cause quite a nasty wound as you can tell by it's
nickname. This is the link http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/boobytraps/no8-2.JPG
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Agent Blak December 6th, 2001, 02:58 PM

You could scatter marbles or other hard round balls behind you.
there is always pre-place net, tripwires, etc.
If you were to have a cammera flash circut hooked up to a flash bulb you can burn the rods(destroy night vision paritally) off
in there eyes. just make sure you do get yourself.
Cricket December 7th, 2001, 03:06 PM

To be less suspicious (depending on location), you could have a snow scraper on the front of your vehicle to scrape away the
stop sticks. And in a JC Whitney magazine I once saw a large magnet that you hung from the front of your vehicle and it would
pick up the screws and nails and stuff. Expensive though, I think for the best it was $200 and the cheapest was about $70
USD. Oh yea, and if you could steal a city vehicle, then get the ones that can ride on the train tracks http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.
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"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania
PYRO500 December 7th, 2001, 09:48 PM

then they just stop all trains on that track!
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Being able to ride the rails would be an advantage at times.
You'd be able to travel through largely uninhabited rural areas with no one around to see your face and call the cops if you've
been on AMW.
If the pigs set up road blocks, it's not going to include the rails. They'll be watching the train stations, but not the rails
themselves.
You can easily go more than a hundred miles on hour on rails with no worrys about other traffic. And rails provide a straight
line path to some places that would take many more miles via road. The time savings could come in handy if you need an
alibie.
There's no way I could have been at the the victims house 30 miles away, killed them, and been back here in time for my
birthday party with 50 witnesses!
Why, that's 50 miles by road! Even going a hundred miles an hour, it'd take me an hour round trip, not including the time it
would take to murder someone.
I was only gone (with no witnesses) for 40 minutes!
Now, by rail, going a hundred, it only took you 40 minutes since you got there in a straight line. At night, no lights on (who
needs them on rails), no witnesses to the car, equals unknown killer.
Problem with rails is (obviously) trains use them too. And if you're going a hundred MPH while an oncoming train is going 50
MPH, that equals a big mess....for you.
You'd either need to have a schedule, or a straight line of sight for miles so you'd have time to see an approaching train,
stop, and get off the rails before it hits you.
This could prove difficult if you're in a tunnel, mountain or forest area, or on a raised track with no shoulders.
Also, you're going to need split axle wheels. Otherwise you'll show up on the railroad controllers boards as a phantom train.
That'd be investigated.
And don't forget the crossing guards will go down if you don't have a split axle. That means stopping traffic which means
witnesses seeing a passing car.
If you do have a split axle, that means that traffic WON'T know you're coming, so you'll have to know where they are and cross
when no traffic is around to see you.
I read in a National Geographic about some people who biked across India on bicycles modified to ride the rails.
Cheap means of covert travel.
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Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
HalfDark December 16th, 2001, 06:36 AM

Caltrops are good but they do take some time to make them strong enough to stand up to a car.............
The way i use to do it was get some nails and push them through tissue paper and then lie them on the road!!!!!
I used tissue paper cos it falls of the wheel and the driver just thinks that he has gone over a nail.
Things like carpet just get stuck to the wheel........
Well thats the way i used to do it.........bearing in mind that i was bout 10 when i did this..........5 years ago!!!!
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You may be able to "see" the light half of the world......but you have to "know" the dark of it!!!
DarkAngel December 17th, 2001, 04:05 PM

NBK:I don't know exactly how the rail system works but i do know that if a train is riding on the rails here it drives above a
certain spot (Atleast before every level crossing)that's on 1 part of the rail.
You can easely find this spot because there is always a small electrical box with wires coming out next to it.
When it drives above it the train wheel is making a closed circuit that will turn on the bell's and closes the barriers.
So atleast here a split axle is useless.
A few years ago i dreamed to place a cupper coin on that certain spot and with doing this you will let the system think that
there is a train coming which will close the barriers,let the bells ring and will turn all traffic lights on red.
This could also be handy only in other situations.
(i told this earlyer but if anyone want's to hear the whole story again say it and i will post it again)
I made 2 pictures of it,

As you see there are electrical wires coming out of the box that go to a diverent part of the rail. http://
entersection1.virtualave.net/Pictures/Trainstop1.jpg
On the rail there is a small line that separates the rail parts.
A conductor(Cupper coin,cupper wire would probably be even better) needs to be placed on the line so it closes the circuit.
http://entersection1.virtualave.net/Pictures/Trainstop2.jpg
------------------
arkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)

sendtosection1@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited December 17, 2001).]
Machiavelli December 17th, 2001, 06:23 PM

What does your system do when it starts to rain?
In Germany it's designed that at regular intervalls on the tracks there are sensors that count how many axes are passing by, I
don't know if they measure conductivity or if they do it magnetically, and then the counts for different intervalls are evaluted
by the system and it therefore determines whether or not to switch on the stop signals at that track intervall.
------------------
I'm a hero! I free innocent jewels and valuables who've been imprisoned in creepy dark vaults and safes.
DarkAngel December 18th, 2001, 06:18 AM

When it's raining nothing happends.
But there must be more than the thing i explained because if you put the coin on the line (You see sparks coming of) the
barriers start to close and the bells are ringing but as soon as you remove the coin it all stops.
(in order to get it working right you need to move the coin with your feet on it till it get's welded on the rail)
Maybe because a train have lot's of wheels and moves very fast every wheel works as a conductor and when the last wheel
passes it just stops.
But still some barriers at certain stations stay closed while people are going in and out of the train.
------------------
arkAngel

Ctrl_C December 31st, 2001, 02:14 AM

thats not the way a rail system works. my dad designed some of these things years ago. they work like nbk said basically. the
gate supplies a positive current to one rail and a negative to the other, and the train completes the circut through its wheels/
axels as it nears. The resistance in the track eventually becomes enough as the train moves away to trigger a sequence to
open the gates.
NBK, what exactly do you mean by "split axel"? If the axels are in contact in any way (through the differential, frame,
suspension) etc...it will set off the gates.
as for quick countermeasures, how about thin piano wire across a doorway? place it about 5'6" from the floor and if anyone
runs into it, sliced neck. piano wire is SHARP!
Noct December 31st, 2001, 03:35 AM

For those of you that have PMJB2, there is a section on caltrops and some similar designs, though they are probably basic and
you already know of them. It is in the first section of the book, I don't know the exact page.
All of the ideas in this thread are great, if I am ever in a situation that requires... impairing of movement... I will remember
these!
As for the piano wire idea, at 5'6", what about those too short to get caught on it? It's a slight change, but how about wires like
this...
-
.-
..-
...-
(dots are filler, dashes are the wire)
About eight inches apart, this is sure to get the face or neck.
Also, if you are running from someone while on foot, how about broken glass? It's quick, simple, and easy. Not nearly as
effective as other methods, but it's about improvisation, isn't it? It's simple, but sometimes the simplest things are
overlooked.
Here is something else from the PMJB2.... If you have a thin board, or something similar, strong enough to hold nails in place
but thin enough to not be seen under certain circumstances, you can stick nails through it, but the kicker is that the nails have
barbs in them so that they stick in the shoe/foot, and the person stuck in this trap has to either take the board with them,
break it, take off the shoe, or rip out the nail. Whatever happens, they will be slowed.
As for the fish hooks in beads idea, it would be very easy to apply it as a security device. Attach them to your front/back door/
windows/whatever where there might be a break-in. Whenever you dont want them there, just hang them on something to the
side of the entrance... just an idea if you haven't thought of it already.
atropine January 4th, 2002, 06:27 AM

why bother making them when you can buy them "a dime a dozen"? <a href="http://fastknife.com/cal10in.html"
target="_blank">caltrops from fastknife</a>.
This sites got loads of things pretty cheap
nbk2000 January 4th, 2002, 12:23 PM

Uh....I've seen these things.....and they're only big enough to go through a ninja tabi sock.
Car tires and JBT boots wouldn't be affected in the least.

Also, at 25 each, they're not as cheap as cutting up a chain link fence or barbed wiring.
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

i've bought a few in the past and they do work. Against a car tyre they're pretty useless but certainly are going to be better
than glass. If you are thinking of stopping a car then a stinger like device would be more apt. Just a lump of polystyrene with
a few needle fashioned pipes jammed in left right and center. Or just get a gun :0)
Azazel April 2nd, 2002, 03:26 AM

it would be funny to hook up a car with caltrops at the ready so that at the click of a button caltrops are dropped onto the road
from a moving car, possibly puncturing tyres of any car following
food for thought.
I have made caltrops before.... i made only 3 of them just because i had time to kill. i used fairly thick nails (4) and cut the
flat tops off them. i then welded 3 of the non sharp ends together in the one spot so that a 3 sided cone shape thingy was
formed. you must work out the angles at which to do this i cant quite remember but it must be able to land on any 3 of the 4
spikes and have a nail facing directly up. the 4th nail i welded facing upwards... simple...
very nasty to horses and cattle. dont get any ideas the poor animals never did anything bad to you i would imagine.
:( :rolleyes:
Jack Ruby April 2nd, 2002, 06:52 AM

"it would be funny to hook up a car with caltrops at the ready so that at the click of a button caltrops are dropped onto the
road from a moving car, possibly puncturing tyres of any car following"
So how many Batman/007 shows did you watch as a child?
I was looking at a book on some survivalist website and it is on Arming your car with stuff like you mentioned(Caltrops) aswell
as other neat devices.
Has anyone else heard of this book? I think it is called like "Wheels of Rage" or "Rolling Thunder". You know something wierd
like that. Does anyone have it?
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 07:05 AM

It's "Rolling Thunder". And as neat as it sounds, I also think it'd likely be something rather "k3wlish".
I think that, during a hot persuit, that a LOT of smoke would be better than spikes. It's instant, controlable, disappears in a
few minutes, cheap, no forensics, immune to any reasobable countermeasures (unlike run-flat tires), and has other
advantages as well.
Jack Ruby April 2nd, 2002, 02:17 PM

NBK2000,
I think it is very possible that it could be a "K3wlIsH" Affair. On the other hand I don't want to dismiss it a rubish until I have
read it.
For example the "Magicians' Arsenel" sound like another coock book to me but I haven't read it and am still looking for a copy
so I can proove myself right or wrong.
In the write up on the book it speaks of Smoke Sceens, Caltrops, Oil Slicks, Exploding Mines, and other things that are less
deffense oriented.
for the smoke if home made isn't you style(Why I don't know) Superior Signal makes a fine product(40,000 feet^3 in 3 min).
Puts out thick rich Light Grey Smoke(Speaks of Zinc Chloride) and it also isn't very harsh to breath in(no coughing etc. like with
sulfur formulas).
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 04:48 PM

40,000 CFT isn't shit when you're talking about deploying it from a moving car.
If you're traveling at 60MPH, that's a mile a minute. 40,000 / (5,280 feet x 3 minutes) = 2.5 CFT of smoke for the 3 miles.
That's not enough.
Now if you had 10 of them burning at once, then you'd have something. It's not just the volume, but how quickly it can
generate it that is important. Acid smokes like FS (oleum/chlorosulfonic acid) or FM (Titanium tetrachloride) would be excellent
for spraying in your wake. Especially in damp areas like britan or the valley (like I live in).
And, let's not forget, you're in a moving vehicle, leaving the smoke in your wake. So it doesn't matter if it's irritating or
choking. As a matter of fact, you'd want it like that so the pursuer is even more deterred. It would be good to add in some
tear gas to the smoke to further complicate their pursuit.
I actually saw "Magicians Arsenal" at a gun show. For a couple of minutes I was looking through it and it looked like an OK
book. Though the things seemed more suited as distractions or diversions to allow you to draw out a more lethal weapon, than
as weapons themselves.
Machiavelli April 2nd, 2002, 05:55 PM
Anyone experimented with vaporising coloring agents for colored smoke?I'm wondering whether these would condense on and
stick to glass surfaces. After all, if the windshield is covered with a sticky non-transparent layer, the pursuit car is out of the
race.

It is all about distraction and averting their attention to something else.
If you lose sight of me for 3 seconds, it is very likely that a)you will be dead, or b) you will be unable to find my trail not find
me.
In a very short time you can pull out somthing from your bag of tricks and allowing you to end the persuit(Victory through
Superior firepower; RTPB).
NBK2000,
so did you buy the book?
Mach,
wouldn't that be called Paint?
A-BOMB April 3rd, 2002, 12:17 AM

What about a smoke cloud with a mist of that tire discintegrater fluid mixed in? I if the smoke is coming out from your rear it
can't get on your tires or what about a 50 foot cone of flame flying out the back? Or why not that these bankrobbers tryed they
stole a car with trunck access by folding down the back seat and made frame in there that held a huge amount of large roman
candels and foutains, when the cops started to chase them one of them got in back and opened the truck and lit the fuses on
some of the fireworks, that caused two cars to be out when there winshields became chared black and the plastic grills on the
cars caught on fire me like this idea.
But instead of fireworks a flamethroughter because if the first cop car is no fire of thoser might just stop to help pig car one or
might just get smart and stay back a bit and let the chopper follow you instead this is where the stinger missile that you
bought from the Taliban comes in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 12:18 AM

No, I didn't buy it. I had other things I had to get at the time.
I think an oil based paint would work, if you could either get a stream of it blasted onto the pursuers windshield, or if you
sprayed a fine mist of it for a long period of time, which would eventually build up and obscure them.
Whatever is used would have to resist washing off with the windshield fluid and wipers.
Though if concentrated HF acid was added, it would rapidly frost the glass into obscurity.
And you don't neccesarily have to take out the pursuers directly. If you are on a narrow road and wreck a civilian you've passed
by, then that'll block the pursuit.
Tactics comes into play as well. You would be wasting your time to use a smoke screen on a flat desert where the pursuer can
simply drive to the side of it. Or in extremly windy/rainy weather.
But using it in a tunnel, highly curved roads, crowded streets, or anywhere else where the reduced visibility presents a high
probability of a fatal wreck is where you'd want to use it.
Dropping a cloud of smoke at an intersection would prevent them (hopefully) from seeing which way you went. And it doesn't
have to be pea-soup thick either. If you can reduce their visibilty to less than 50 feet, than anything faster than 20MPH is
VERY dangerous.
I've been thinking (as I always do :) ) about installing a permanent spike strip that would look like a simple strip of steel
across the road that we've all seen.
This is normally flat and driven over, but, when activated, a small explosive charge that runs the length of it causes the steel
to break along the pre-etched stress fractures, and force the now jagged edges up into the air, where the passing vehicles
tires will be shredded.
This would have the advantage of being totally inoccent looking to anyone when it's not deployed, fuck-proof, permanent, and
(once activated) unable to be de-activated with anything less than power tools.
Don't forget too, that just because you took out the guys following you, that doesn't prevent them from radioing ahead. You
also have to protect your flanks, and prevent their blocking your path.
What would really throw them for a loop would be if you go multi-dimensional on them.
Fly.
Ultralights cost less than a decent used car. You can go in any direction, without regard to roads, bridges, and all the other
usual impediments to escape.
Your maximum altitude can be more than 14,000 feet (with special equipment), and over a hundred MPH if you illegally
modify <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> it. Throw in NVD goggles, wood construction (non-radar), and
proper timing of the crime, and you're GONE!
Though this is more of an "evade the manhunt" rather than "evade the hot pursuit" technique. This may have already been
done on several high profile manhunts where some hardcore survivalists where being hunted in arizona, new mexico, and
such. Vast distances, few roads, massive manpower looking for them, and they just...disappeared.
They were probably flying right over the piggies heads with the engine cut off in the darkness. :D
johnn 99 April 3rd, 2002, 02:42 AM
Hello, everyone.nice to meet you. Being a James Bond fan for many years. I have experamented with several similar ideas.
As far as caltrops go, Did you know that you can also stamp them out of flat steel? you just stamp 2 identical pieces in the
shape of a triangle with a notch cut running from one point into the center of the triangle. So that 2 of them will snap together
notch to notch. THese can be mass produced easily to any size required in large batches and as they are a blade instead of a
spike, they give a nice slashing effect. I also find that at moderately high speeds a nice bucket of ball bearings chucked out of
the window will really inconveniance the car behind you. (especially at night). On the subject of smoke screens, a fire
extinguisher activated by a bicycle brake cable works brilliantly. For making people bust their ass in the hallway, silicone spray
lubricant is about the best thing ever! GOOD LUCK!
Synthetically Hopeful April 3rd, 2002, 04:18 AM

Some ideas Ill throw to the sharks: a cutting charge around a power pole along with another charge high on the pole to ensure
it falling quickly, or just the lines themselves may be enough. a rig using a remote controller from a toy car would work I think.
using a 4 wheel drive truck to just power up an embankment.
in the idea of using air, would water be too risky (helicopter) if so scuba gear, if not a fast boat. if at the coast, ride to another
contry (it would take a large boat to haul the loot needed to make that worthwhile, smithsonian(SP?) perhapse :D
(edit) Drainage pipes. they are common under roads in rural areas, 1.5-2 ft wide, cement or metal.(only seen a few in plasic)
a resonably large charge could cause collapse or more (Ive never tried). they usualy are not that sound (structualy) but you
can hide in them in a pinch
[ April 03, 2002, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Synthetically Hopeful ]
SATANIC April 3rd, 2002, 12:09 PM

I have recently aquired
"Australian army
manual of land warfare
part two
engineer training
volume two pamphlet No. 2
Obstacles and field defences (all Corps)"
It details the use, manufacture, and improvisation of caltrops :D
"Caltrops.
605. A caltrop is a metal object having a number of spikes, one of which will always land uppermost when the caltrop is
throuwn onto the ground. There is no set design for caltrops, but three types can be easily made in a unit workshop, and which
will puncture the tyres of the heaviest trucks. If caltrops are linked together like a chain, a simple and effective roadblock can
be quickly set up."
[edit= i can't scan anything until my computer stops fucking around, and i get my scanner wprking again.]
Later, i'll scan in the entire section, including pics, to .PDF
[ April 03, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: SATANIC ]
Azazel April 3rd, 2002, 07:34 PM

cool that would be handy
an idea just sprang to mind...how about a series of extremely bright lights {like the highbeams of a car] set up to shine thru
the back windows of your car... 6 or 8 of these babies would blind anyone behind you if turned on. If 2 of these things are
enough to make your eyes hurt at a close distance imagine what 8 of them would do !.. better yet why not make a mirrored
box and put about 50 of these babies [the globes] into it... hell knows where you would get the power from but hey...
lol i can just imagine it now... this may even cause the dumb arse following you to swirve to get out of the light and get clear
sight either causing them to crash into an oncoming vehicle or stop their car...
:D :cool: :rolleyes:
nbk2000 April 4th, 2002, 12:08 AM

No reason why you can't use one of those 1,000,000 CP spotlights that plug into the cars cigarette lighter jack.
Just bolt it to the rear window with the switch turned on, and just plug it into the lighter jack when you need to use it.
I'd think the best way to use it would be to flash them with it, rather than have it constantly on. This prevents them from
tracking you by the light itself.
Naturally, this works best at night. Throw in the ability to turn off all your cars lights and drive using IR or NVD, and you'd be
nearly impossible to follow at night.
johnn 99 April 4th, 2002, 03:42 AM

RTC. Why do you say that my post is not relevant? And if you feel that way, why would you paraphrase my suggestion ? Also
why would you use square plates, this would defeat the whole concept of caltrops. Which are meant to land with a point up.
Yours would not really have a point, and would present the blade at a 45 deg. angle to the road, making them ineffective for
stabbing or cutting?
RTC April 4th, 2002, 04:34 AM
its just that I think I am better than you because I like to take it up the ass.
[ November 13, 2002, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: angelo ]
Bad Company April 4th, 2002, 10:13 PM

I saw in an earlier post about using marbles or bearings to slow down or stop a foot persuit.What if one was to mix broken
glass or some other sharp or pointy objects in the mix.Bad guy slips on round ojects and cuts the hell out of his hands trying
to get back up.Not to mention his back when he first goes down.Just an idea for thought.
nbk2000 April 8th, 2002, 09:15 AM

I had opprotunity to test out the ball bearing idea earlier.
I used 1/4" steel slingshot ammo on a vinyl tiled floor and wore sneakers.
I dumped out 200 bearings on a 10 square foot section of the floor. Most of them rolled, within a few seconds, to a low spot in
the flooring.
I proceeded to step on the bearings, moving my foot around to gradually reduce the number of bearings under my foot till I
no longer had a sufficiently "slippery" effect while supporting my full weight on that foot.
I then counted how many bearing there was and added a few more till I got the required slipping effect.
From my test, it would seem that a minimum of ten (10) 1/4" bearings, equally spaced, are required to make a size 12
(ladies... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) foot lose traction.
Given that it takes 3 of my feet (I only have two! :p ) to cover one square foot, that would mean at least 30 bearings per
square foot.
I repeated it with 3/8" bearings. These only required 5 bearings to achive the same effect. However, giving the volume of the
five bearings is as much as 30 of the smaller bearings, I'd go with the smaller bearings as having better dispersion effect.
My findings:
Bearings have to be used on a hard surface (concrete or stone) as vinyl or wood will dent to some degree, thus reducing
effectiveness.
The floor must be as flat and level as possible. Any slope or low spots will cause the bearings to "puddle" or "drain away", thus
eliminating their effectiveness.
The bearings must be used in great numbers to ensure a sufficient number under foot.
The smoother and harder the victims shoes are, and the smaller their feet, the fewer bearings are required.
Larger bearings provide for easier slippage, but are more expensive and provide less coverage for the same number.
In conclusion:
Bearings are unsuitable except for prepared defense in a home or similarly restricted setting. They do have the advantage of
being reusable and quickly recovered with a magnet.
Oil, silicone grease, or slime would be better since even dispersion is automatic with liquids. An enhancement would be to use
them on a very smooth and slightly sloping surface. This ensures both flow, and slippage since it's impossible to stand on a
slippery slope.
The disadvantage is the greatly complicated cleanup required.
nbk2000 April 8th, 2002, 08:31 PM

I tried out RTC's idea using cardboard. While it would present a hazard, the points are at a 45 degree angle to the ground,
thus limiting their effectiveness.
So, I tried using an equilateral triangle (equal length on all three sides) instead of a square. This works perfectly! :)
<CENTER> <img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Caltrop.gif" alt="" /></CENTER>
The grey triangle is the vertical impaling one. The white line is the second triangle that is perpendicular to the first one. The
red arrow indicates how how deeply to cut the notch into the two triangles.
The neat thing about the triangles is that they're readily available at hardware stores as "Glaziers Points". TheSE are steel
triangles that are used to keep glass panes in wood window frames. The points are VERY sharp out of the package, and are
rather cheap.
All a person needs is a thin cut-off wheel to cut the slots into them, and a welder or epoxy to keep them together. No tedious
or expensive stamping of sheet metal required.
I don't know the largest size that points are available in, but they're at least large enough to viciously cut a bare foot. That
alone could be used at beaches and other places where people (foolishly <img src="http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/
icon18.gif" alt="" />) walk bare foot.
I think a minimum height of an inch would be needed to present a sufficent hazard to car tires and JBTs (Jack Booted Thugs).
Two inches would work against truck tires.
For deflating tires, it'd be a good idea to cut vent slots into the points so the air can more rapidly escape.
When using caltrops for AV purposes, you'll also want to mix in AP caltrops as well to impede clearance. Just like any other
barrier, it can be cleared rapidly if the enemy is free to move about.
And an obstacles effectiveness is much greater if it's covered by fire. They can't very well clear the caltrops away if their feet
are being impaled and they're taking casualties from your fire, now can they? :)
In use as an PDM, I would mix up the caltrops with staggered delay flash-bang submunitions. Such a device is demonstrated
on the FTP. Look for "Flash-Bang_Demo-NBK2000.rm" on the FTP.
This was just ONE unconverted firework. The converted ones are at least 4 times more dramatic, and then you'd have
MULTIPLE explosions from the staggered time delays going off.
Between the distraction of the explosions and flying sparks, they not going to be watching where they're stepping. :D
An idea I have would be to connect the two triangles in a "bow-tie" configuration with a piece of <a href="http://www.sma-
inc.com/information.html" target="_blank">Nitinol</a>.
The two triangles lay flat against each other inside a PDM (allowing greeater packing density) until the heat of the burster
causes the nitinol to phase-shift to it's twisted state. This is with the triangles at a 90 degree angle to each other, meaning
always point up.
The nitinol would rapidly cool down within a few seconds, reverting to the safe folded state.
During the few seconds when they're hazardous is when the submunitions are exploding. This would cause the enemy to move
about, stepping and falling on the caltrops.
After a few seconds, they safe themselves, allowing you to move safely about while the enemy is now injured.
Ah, the wonders of science! :p
You could aslo use them to prevent a target from escaping from an ambush.
Allow the piggies to enter your home, dispense the caltrops in the entrace and hallways, then initate your attack. They'll be
forced to either stand and die, or run. When they run, they're going to get fucked off! And while they're gimping about, they're
easy pickings.
Use short pipe projectors to throw AV/AP caltrops among the piggies in the streets. Then start fragging them.
[ April 08, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
johnn 99 April 8th, 2002, 09:11 PM

I like the glazers point idea, NBK. I never thought of that. We always stamped our own. Also, Thank you for the graffics, I was
having a hard time describing this in my post. For mass production, clamping a bunch together, and using a hacksaw might be
quicker?
[ April 08, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: johnn 99 ]
nbk2000 April 8th, 2002, 09:38 PM

Clamping a bunch together would help, but I'd think it much faster to use the cut-off wheel on the stack. The points would be
difficult for the hacksaw blade to bite into unless you ground the point flat.
nbk2000 April 9th, 2002, 01:41 AM

Pictures are worth a thousand words.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Caltrop_Cardboard_Disassembled.jpg" alt="" />
The triangular pieces with the slots cut.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Caltrop_Cardboard_Assembled.jpg" alt="" />
The assembled caltrop with the point sticking up.
Azazel April 9th, 2002, 06:01 AM

small note nbk about your design...
very very easy to make and if made properly and sharpened this will most deffinately be a good caltrop... for stopping
vehicles...
Animals on the other hand maybe not... these caltrops may not actually pierce through an assailants shoe. that may be a
problem. however if they are sharp enough to stick into the shoe while they run, they will most deffinately have to stop to take
it out otherwise they will lose balance. if you want to damage the foot of the intended target it is neccesary to have fine needle
shaped spikes rather than much larger s.a spikes
the caltrops u designed would be excellent fora automobiles... next topic should be underwater mines :D
nbk2000 April 9th, 2002, 06:30 AM

Glaziers points are already razor sharp on the points. That's the beauty of them.
I'm confidant of their ability to penetrate a shoe. After all, they're hard steel, razor sharp, and quite pointy. While not as easily
penetrating as a spike, it would be equal to stepping on the point of a knife. And that will quite readily penetrate a shoe or
boot.
And, like you said, if it didn't, it'd still fuck off their ability to walk till they removed them, which would require stopping, and
pulling on what's basically an embedded razor blade.
Now, if you threw this in with a liquid anti-traction agent like LBP, then you'd have some really nasty traps waiting for people to
slip and impale themselves in.
And props go out to john99 for giving me the idea of the plates. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon14.gif"
alt="" />

I think you should reread the posts nbk, this was not his idea. It was mine. And I got the idea from a manual. Anyway, I have
made and used these they work quite well against dismounted troops, They will even pierce the antispike plates on a pair of
jungle boots if they are sharp enough. I had another Idea. For those pesky swat entry teams, how about a boobytrap/mine
that sprays either. a nice explosive fuel air mixture in an enclased environment that also happens to be a general anisthetic
should make them rethink a few of their entry tactics!
nbk2000 February 5th, 2003, 04:30 AM

Found this design on a military site.
<img src="http://204.255.139.236/mcdweb/images/4nlc_catalog/200x200/30.gif" alt=" - " />
It's either a single piece that's stamped and folded, or two stamped pieces welded together
darkdontay February 5th, 2003, 05:16 AM

Here is some links to some sites about them that I found... Though I suspect it is in vain, that you have allready been to
them all. Oh well but to try and help, then sit in a corner and wackoff.
<a href="http://www.flowerdew.org/object02.html" target="_blank">http://www.flowerdew.org/object02.html</a>

<img src="http://www.flowerdew.org/object02/turntable01.jpg" alt=" - " />
"WWII OSS Caltrop,"

for sale $50
<a href="http://www.adrax.com/watsons/g057.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adrax.com/watsons/g057.htm</a>
<img src="http://www.adrax.com/watsons/g057.jpg" alt=" - " />
"A VERY INTERESTING Caltrop found in a German bunker in Demyansk"

<a href="http://www.ostfront.com/publications_items.html" target="_blank">http://www.ostfront.com/publications_items.html</
a>
<img src="http://www.ostfront.com/images_german/spike2.jpg" alt=" - " />
^Nice site I think you might enjoy it NBK^
Britsh/Can Version
<a href="http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/crom3a.html" target="_blank">http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/
crom3a.html</a>
<img src="http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/caltrop.jpg" alt=" - " />
The CIA's little thing about them

<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/artifacts/caltrop.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/artifacts/
caltrop.htm</a>
<img src="http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/artifacts/caltrop.jpg" alt=" - " />
^*** Link to the CIA's WEBSITE, just a warning for thoughs paranoid*^
Here is a realy old one. Listed as a Buried Treasure

<a href="http://www.iglou.com/btreasure/ref.html" target="_blank">http://www.iglou.com/btreasure/ref.html</a>
<img src="http://www.iglou.com/btreasure/caltrop.jpg" alt=" - " />
1337bomber February 5th, 2003, 10:02 PM

Here is the method I have always used. It works good on feet, although I am not sure about tires.
<a href="http://www.ninj.itgo.com/ghettoscience/caltrop.html" target="_blank">VoD's Method of Caltrop Production</a>
80r15 March 12th, 2003, 08:24 PM

I dont know if anyone has told you this before in this post and youre smart enough to figure it out, but dont use your own hair
in the making of these things if youre still going with the plaster thing. What i would do(correct me if im wrong), is use steel
wool in the plaster to make it even more strong. Well that was just my two cents. And since this post was about impediments
to movement, you could use Chemical weapons. They could be deployed on the ground as a liquid and allowed to evaporate,
or possibly as a solid(never tried this), or I read in a book somewhere that its an idea to put chem weapons in small glass(or
any other fragile material), and when stepped on, would release the chemical weap. You could also but some nails in the small
balls so when the moron steps on it, he injects what ever chem weapon you chose into his foot, gets a nail stuck into his foot,
and, well you guess the rest. THIS IS ONLY AN IDEA AND HAS NOT BEEN TRIED...YET. Another pro to this small glass ball idea
is if you had a bunch of piggies chasing you, or other annoying pests for that matter, after releasing a couple CC's of VX into a
room, its gonna be hard for the rest of the pigs to get through there......... as for previous suggestions about putting nails
through various crap(insulation, duct tape), i dont see the effectiveness, because from what i interpreted, these would be used
while fleeing somewhere. and unless you plan to do what ever it is that you do illegaly while carrying a huge role of
insulation(and duct tape can only handle as many nails as you can fit on the outer edge, 1 strip of duct tape will take all the
nails off), so i like my idea of small(anywhere from 1/2 inch to 5 inches) balls filled with similar-caltrop devices and a nerve
gas of your choice......
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
[ March 12, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: 80r15 ]
Arkangel March 12th, 2003, 10:25 PM

thats a pretty neet idea in fact you could develop it quite nicely
what you need to do is have a tripwire controlled cannister of gas in the room (you know where the tripwire is, and jump over it
as you're running :D ), which when the piggies run through it, releases a cloud of concentrated THC gas (C21H30O2 - sorry
cant work subscript yet) into their faces, while a net is dropped onto them from above
obviously they struggle free of the net but not before the thc has done its evil work they then wander off disorientated and with
the raging munchies which is where the reeeeeellly wicked part comes in...........
ricin impregnated m&m's :mad:
they scoff the lot as they are so hungry and a couple of days later he or she would have internal bleeding of the stomach and
intestines that would lead to vomiting and bloody diarrhea. Eventually, the persons liver, spleen, and kidneys might stop
working, and the person could die he he he :mad:
what do you reckon 80
THIS IDEA HAS NOT BEEN TESTED EITHER, AT LEAST NOT IN ONE GO I'VE TESTED THE THC AND THE M&M'S BUT NOT WITH
RICIN YET IT SEEMS TO WORK PRETTY WELL THOUGH ALL MY TEST SUBJECTS ATE ALL THE M&M'S I LEFT ON THE FLOOR OF MY
APARTMENT IN FACT THEY ATE EVERYTHING IN MY HOUSE TOO
[ March 12, 2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
80r15 March 12th, 2003, 11:19 PM

I like it. And I am not a newbie- I know organic chem. I like your idea but I think we should use my glass balls with VX and
nails just for safety. Maybe after the piggies eat the M&M's AND BACON!!! they continue the hunt for us and then step on my
little glass balls. Seriously though NBK2000, you should strongly consider making these. The only concern I would have is
melting the glass and not damaging the VX, which is why I said use another brittle material also... maybe play-do, it always
comes in handy...
I_am_the_Black_one March 13th, 2003, 04:28 AM

What about a taser hooked to a wire net or string (Great for keeping piggies out!!) Im leaning to wards a wire strund out like a
piano wire so if they dont get cut up to bad they get fried!!
lol i am a sick sick depraved person
NightStalker March 13th, 2003, 04:30 AM

VX isn't so much an inhalation hazard as a contact hazard. Even less so if simply stepped upon with a shoe, though a spike
driving it into the foot would help speed things up. :)
Seriously though, I don't think NBK had the idea of extremely toxic, and exotic, CW agents in mind when he created this
thread.
Look at his first post, where everything is low-tech, and readily doable. Nothing low-tech about VX or other OPA's, is there?
Plus, it wouldn't immediately stop a persuer, simple poison them. They could still catch your ass, kill or arrest you, then die
later...but that'd be too late to do you any good, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I think that, despite the new "huggy-feely" forum, you're probably on the short list of candidates for "retirement" (they've
stopped calling it execution). :p
Oh, and I wouldn't tell anyone I was from sciencequeerness either. :D
PS: What's with all the :mad: icons at the bottom of your post? :confused:
Arkangel March 13th, 2003, 06:36 AM

:mad: :mad: Nightstalker, don't you know genius when you see it? :mad: :mad:
How can you possibly compare the brilliance, sophistication and ingenuity of filling glass spheres with VX and drawing pins to
the childish simplicity of NBK's plaster caltrops.
Thousands of years of human evolution should push us toward imaginative, complex designs rather than functionality and
effectiveness.
There's no way that NBK could have conceived containing VX withing play-doh, and personally I think he should step aside for
our new figurehead - 80r15. I know he's not been around very long, but in his case it shouldn't matter. He has the
imagination, he has the intelligence, he has..........well, he has.............never mind.
HAIL THE MESSIAH, 80r15 we salute you, and the black thing your boy wonder! :rolleyes:
[ March 13, 2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
Mr Cool March 13th, 2003, 02:35 PM

All hail 80r15, Supreme Leader of the Forumites!
You're right 80r15, for safety's sake we should melt glass spheres full of VX in order to seal them. All these things with spikes
and plaster sound horribly dangerous, and really stupid too. They'll never work.
But drawing pins (which despite what people might tell you will easily penetrate 1" thick rubber soles BUT I HAVEN'T TESTED
THIS... YET I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE I JUST HEARD THAT IT WILL WORK) and VX, which as you know is easy to make from
Red Devil Lye, gasoline and biro ink, will be easy to make and could stop entire armies of police!
Hey and we could disguise the munchies as caltrops so the police will not eat them and starve to death! And the caltrops will
be disguised as munchies I HAVEN'T TRIED THIS YET, I read it in a book somewhere.
You are teh genius!!!1

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!1!
Arkangel March 13th, 2003, 03:40 PM

Thank fuck for that! I thought my sarcasm was going to go un-noticed! :)
80r15 March 13th, 2003, 07:32 PM

First of all, I said any nerve gas of your choice. Second of all, I never said use PINS, I said use nails. Third of all, I never said
use food. Fourth of all, it's better than most other peoples ideas of having a net with a taser on it. This is meant to be a...
ahhh never mind...

If NBK wasn't busy with his DVD, I'm sure he'd have already bitten off your head, chewed it up a bit before realizing that the
funky taste in his mouth was coming from all the accumulated dust between your ears, spitting out your slightly crunched skull,
only to grind it into the dirt under the heel of his Jack Boot (made from real kike skin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> ).
:p
Oh, and to really put the stamp of lame approval on your post, the TASER net is already manufactured by Foster-Miller (major
DOD supplier), as well as being researched by USAMRID (United States Army Material something or other) for use as an NLW
to replace traditional landmines. So double :p :p
ALso, the TASER net has a "black sheep" version that uses barbed hooks along with a lethal electricifier to kill whoever it's
used on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
For the love of God, would someone please "retire" this lamer?

What - you were being sarcastic, Arkangel?!
Meaning you don't support our new Dark Overlord?
Well then, straight to BFL for you!!
:D
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I said any nerve gas of your choice<hr /></blockquote>That's great news, since I've just run out of mayoniase so I can't make VX or Tabun at the moment.
Seriously though, 80r15, the point of this thread was to get ideas for something cheap, easy and quick to make in vast
numbers. No nerve agent containing device will fit under these criteria!
And if it wasn't for posts like this:

Helvetica">ummm.... you just gave me the fucking link to the fucking rules page... how the fuck does that help me....<hr /></blockquote>then you might be a little better liked... You don't
need to swear to be heard you know - it doesn't make you look big and it's not clever :p .
80r15 March 14th, 2003, 10:12 PM

ummmm for any fucking experienced organic chemist, tabun or sarin is not exceptionally challenging. My idea was a caltrop in
a sphere with nerve gas in it. AND YOURE telling me im lame. So while youre running away from cops in your "kike skin" boots,
you will take the time to set up a taser and net??? Are you fucking stupid. The only nerve gas you will see is the one that they
fill your chamber wiht at the state pen. And you call yourself chemists??? Yes, sarin, soman, or tabun might not be cheap or
*easy* to make, it can still be made by anyone who knows what theyre doing. If youre too fucking stupid to make those, use
CL2(g) or mustard gas... Oh wait, those are to hard and expensive to synthesize too, right??? I mean, they were only used in
WW1, so you need really fucking advanced technology to synthesize them. If youre too stupid to figure out the synthesis
procedure for Cl2 or mustard gas, let me know, and I will help your dumb ass out. The only thing youre good for is to listen to
what NBK2000 says, repeat it multiple times, and criticize anyones post who is new to the forum. Notice new to the forum, NOT
ORGANIC CHEM. in your case its the other way around. So go out, find an 8th grade chem book, and start learning what the
fuck an ionic bond is nad what valence electrons are.....
[ March 14, 2003, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: 80r15 ]
blazter March 15th, 2003, 12:11 AM

I would like to cast my vote for giving 80r15 HED. The worthless flaming does little to help, and is polluting this perfectly good
thread. I wasn't sure if i was in favor of the fairly strict forum rules, but now im all in favor of strict enforcement.
oh "nad" by the way last I checked HCN was used in the gas chambers, which is NOT a nerve agent. It interfers with normal
respiration, by inhibiting the cytochrome oxidase enzyme.
megalomania March 15th, 2003, 12:45 AM

I am afraid you may have slightly damaged your credibility, 80r15, by suggesting sealing nerve gas with playdoe... Making
chemicals is one thing, and more is the power to you for knowing how, but using them is a different manner. Especially
chemical weapons.
Come on guys, your looking for kewls to crush :) He hasn't broken any rules that I would bother banning for. Lets see how my
experiment in member flaming enforcement works :)

Geeze, 80r15, how many times can you say the word "FUCK" in a post before you give me a hard-on from your constant
invitation to do so? FIVE TIMES?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
You make stunningly brilliant use of a language developed over thousands of years. A language as fluid on the tongue as a
fine wine, as graceful as a soaring eagle, as expressive as a Motzart concerto', and as versatile as a swiss knife...all of
it...reduced to a shit smeared rock in the flailing appendage of the screaming simian that is you.

Helvetica">
The only thing youre good for is to listen to what NBK2000 says, repeat it multiple times, and criticize anyones post who is new
to the forum.
<hr /></blockquote>Very well then...since I'm simply a toady who
cravenly parrots everything NBK says, I'll take my best shot at parroting what he'd say if he was here to be parroted by my
craven toadying.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Confidential report of the SS Sturmhuhn

Security Classification: Low
ATTN: Reichsfhrer-SS Sturmhuhn NBK2000
We've just intercepted this internal communique (from our mole within ECHELON) to the Politburo of the untermensch-forum
Science Madness by the top handler of their espionage apparat, as regards the capture and execution of their latest spy to
attempt infiltration.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+=
U|_+RA t0P S3qR3T reP@r+
Mission Name: Wintermute
Assigned Agent: 80r15 (ENG TRANS: Bore Us)
Mission:
Infiltrate Roguesci, posing as an 3l!+3 weapons master, and gain their trust. Once accepted into the inner circle, report back
all advanced weapons knowledge to mother russia, for domestic manufacture and use against chechean seperatist running
dog capitalist FILTH!
Mission Status: Failure.
Agent 80r15 has failed to be accept. His 3l1+3 skillz were sub-par to those of the "Forumites" (as they refer to themselves),
thus he was unable to gain acceptance by even the most recent of members, let alone the truely elite.
Agent Status: KIA.
Agent 80r15 was captured by roguesci's internal security apparat, the "SS Sturmhuhn" (lead by the infamous NBK, who's
wanted by the UN for numerous human rights abuses involving torture, small farm animals, and other things too disturbing to
mention), taken to their HEDquarters (prumably to be interrogated) before being summarily executed in the Hot Electron
Death chamber.
Conclusion:
It's the opinion of this handler that further attempts at infiltration would be pointless.
Obviously, the supposed decrease in their internal security (the "huggey-feeley" period) was just a ploy to lure out any
potential infiltrators into the open, by dangling the lure of an easing in membership standards where Roguesci's enemies
would be sure to take the opportunity to attempt an infiltration, thus revealing their presence.
Gentlemen, I'm afraid that we have been outfoxed by a true master of the craft, NBK, having fallen for such a simple, yet
devastatingly effective ploy, as the one that resulted in our agents discovery and execution.
END R3P0rT
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= +=+=+=+=+=
Analysis:
As per our previous periods of "lax" security, our enemies have taken this opportunity to attempt yet another futile attempt to
infiltrate our ranks. And, once again, the simple minded untermensch have fallen for such a simple trick so many times that
you'd think they'd have learned by now.
Even hanging the fly-blown and blackened corpses of previously captured spies on the BFL Avenue hasn't deterred them.
Naturally, this can be attributed to their inferior intelligence, which is why they're untermensch in the first place, eh? <img
Conclusion:
Continue with Operation "Lame Drain", until the current batch of enemy infiltrators have been removed, before restoring
normal member security standards.
HEIL NBK!
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Feel better now? I certainly do!
Now, as for YOUR lame idea that:

Helvetica">
...for any fucking (another invitation? Nightstalker) experienced organic chemist, tabun or sarin is not exceptionally
challenging.
<hr /></blockquote>While the actual laboratory skills in running the
reaction may not be beyond their skill, the actual material handling skills, and physical equipment to do so, is VERY lacking in
the VAST MAJORITY of organic laboratories. CW agents like sarin, and VX even more so, are orders of magnitude more toxic
than the reagents handled on a daily basis in the majority of organic labs in the world.
How many labs, even labs in an elite first-world university, have positive-overpressure full body suits/level 4 hazmat
gloveboxs/flood decon showers/pharmacological antidotes/scrubber towers/etc needed to handle chemicals who's very purpose
is to kill quickly and surely in milligram quantities within minutes of the slightest contact?
Even such "primitive" CW's like mustard gas can injure (or kill) a person if their equipment is even the slightest bit defective,
leaving them crippled for life...what little life they have left, that is. Chemical warfare agents are like jealous women...easy to
spite, quick to harm, slow to forgive.

Helvetica">
If youre too stupid to figure out the synthesis procedure for Cl2 or H, let me know, and I will help your dumb ass
out.
<hr /></blockquote>(Corrected his syntax. Nightstalker)
Gee, I hope that wouldn't be a copy and paste job of NBK's lengthy post in an earlier thread where he detailed a total
synthesis of mustard gas from antifreeze, would it? If so, keep it...as a going away present...from me to you.
Given how you've not even the language skills to construct a coherent sentence, let alone flame, I give your credability in
judging my skill (or anyone's) in the preparation and handling of super-toxic materials to be rather...tiny...yet oddly
humorous. :p
Plus, asking people who don't know you from a homeland security informer to provide detailed narrations of our exploits in
making internationally banned chemical warfare agents on an open forum during a time of hysterical witch hunting for
"terrorists armed with weapons of mass destruction" shows a very glaring lack of discretion on your part.
But that's just my opinion, not that of NBK, or any of the other staffers who's job it is to decide who stays or goes here.
PS: Can anyone spot the "Nueromancer" reference?
[ March 15, 2003, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: NightStalker ]
Mr Cool March 15th, 2003, 08:18 AM

Hehe, let's not ban him. I've always speculated that if you flame an idiot enough he'll explode due to a build up of shit
between his ears, this looks like a perfect opportunity to test this hypothesis. Although his venting system seems to be
working quite well, look at what he's spewed all over our Forum for proof of that!
Come on then 80r15, I will give you a chance to prove your worth. Post a photograph of your lab setup (decon showers and all
:p ). While you're at it, post pictures of your Sarin and Tabun, including precursors. Then and only then will I believe that you
are in fact not an idiot. Lol, I can guess what is coming next - "Fucking I don't fucking need to fucking prove myself to you
fucking idiots fuck shit fucking gays."
Helvetica">My idea was a caltrop in a sphere with nerve gas in it. AND YOURE telling me im lame.<hr /></
blockquote>Hey 80r15, I have another l33+ idea - what about an A-bomb in a
pretzel? What do you think, huh? Then we could put that in play-dough and surround it with sarin-smeared caltrops!
HAHAHA! :D :D
Why don't you quit with this idea, and start posting some of your advanced knowledge of organic chemistry? Because you're
not gaining any respect this way...
80r15 March 15th, 2003, 08:27 AM

ALL HAIL MEGALOMANIA!!!!!
Thank you greatly Megalomania... The thing is, I had an idea of mixing caltrops with the little green balls in THE ROCK(btw VX
or EA2912? i think is amber, not green, and its not "gooey" like they portay it in the movie) and decided to make a little joke
with it on this forum(the playdough thing). At sciencemadness, this would have been laughed at and people would have
moved on, but apparantly there is a different mood here, and now I recognize that. I will be more "careful" about what or
where I post..... btw 1 4m n0t 4 "k3wl", 1 4m 4 h4x0r.....PS thank you for not banning me Megalomania. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
edit: I don't think that you could get enough U-235 into a pretzel to make it go super-critical... As for the pictures...Fucking I
don't fucking need to fucking prove myself to you fucking idiots fuck shit fucking gays. lol :)
[ March 15, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: 80r15 ]
Al Nobel March 15th, 2003, 08:35 AM

Palestinians use potatoes with lots of nails in it to stop Israeli vehicles (biodegradable caltrops :D ).
I searched for some pictures but Ive found only a german site with general information.
<a href="http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/sanis/archiv/intifada/kap_02.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nadir.org/nadir/
initiativ/sanis/archiv/intifada/kap_02.htm</a>
And 80r15 the potatoes are of course compatible with Anthrax,VX...
[ March 15, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Al Nobel ]
Anthony March 15th, 2003, 08:16 PM

The most obvious thing is that "Boris" started with a completely off-topic post. VX filled glass spheres are not caltrops by any
stretch of the imagination!
"make a little joke with it on this forum(the playdough thing). At sciencemadness, this would have been laughed at and
people would have moved on"
You're a newbie, and judging by the way you present yourself, how were people supposed to realise you were only joking.
You'd be amazed at some of the ideas some people come up with and actually think are good.
Secondly, we work with serious materials; sensitive explosives that endanger life and limb, and even more dangerous CW
agents (hypothetically...). Joking around isn't always wise, what is said in jest may be taken seriously by someone, who goes
on to serious injure or kill themselves.
80r15 March 15th, 2003, 11:30 PM

and your SS whatever cannot stop the
Komitet Gosudarstvennoye Bezopastnosti!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
firebreether March 16th, 2003, 12:43 AM

Have your tires ever been punctured by a nail? They stay in there and leak very slowly which probably wouldn't help you too
much with a cop on yer butt. Because the caltrops aren't stuck to the ground it seems like they should puncture, then get stuck
in the tire and just "roll with it". I dont know if the extra prongs of a caltrop would affect it much. It seems to me that you need
something that'll really rip the heck out of a tire so that it violently flats. The hollow caltrops from the CIA look just the ticket,
or the stamped steel ones, with all the barbs on them.
[ March 16, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: firebreether ]
chemwarrior March 16th, 2003, 01:09 AM

80r15, Just stop now while your ahead. You dont really want to get banned, do you?
'Tis funny though. Would have been better had NBK been here. Its allways funny to watch him 'stalk and kill' a kewl.
Oh, and 80r15, your damn lucky that Polverone and Madscientist are kind about fools on sciencemadness.org, else you would
have been banned long ago. I would also advise you to cease the use of those :mad: faces all the time. You DID see, Im
assuming, where Polverone removed them from a post and, quite polietly, asked you to cease using them right?
And btw, had NBK been here, I doubt we would have heard anything except the sizzling of HED. :D
Energy84 March 16th, 2003, 01:12 AM

I really like the idea of stamping caltrops from single sheets of steel. Although it might be a bitch to get a set of dies custom
made for the job, it'd be really easy to make them once you got the die.
So, has anybody seen a die for these or know any other ways of making those nice barbed caltrops?
chemwarrior March 16th, 2003, 02:10 AM

I havent seen a mold for them before, but I imagine that by taking a ready-made one from a barb-wire fence and makeing a
plaster cast of it, one could then take and make a steel mold, if they had access to the equipment. Then they could make a
multiple caltrop cast from which a person could make hunderds in less than an hour. This would be much easier, and, I think,
much cheaper, than buying the wire and cutting all the bards from it. Also, it would make for an easy way of getting rid of
scrap metal you have laying around.
Then again, I might just be grasping at air, but...
80r15 March 16th, 2003, 08:54 AM

chemwarrior shut the fuck up. you dont contribute shit to scienecmadness and I do. Ok b1t(h? n0w 5hut th3 fu(k u[]D!!
and i dont want to get banned but if thats what NBK is gonna do, then so be it... I still have sciencemadness and quite frankly,
1 h4v3nt l34rnt 5h1t 4t th15 51t3 yet...
[ March 16, 2003, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: 80r15 ]

Damn, you know it's really hard to type while laughing your ass off...
Anyway, I've been searching sciencemadness, and have to say that you have contributed NOTHING to it! Well, unless these
count as contributions:

Helvetica">WELL,,,
define suicide(if you mean killing themselves...duh) than YES its true. Hell I have almost killed myself on NUMEROUS
occasions. Once i almost got septic(where your body dies of dehydration) thnks to rust, and once I spilt some acidic rust
solution on myself and my leg had weird bumbs for a week or two..., and once i had a broken piece of erlyn meyer flask
circulating around in me until the doctor got it out and prevented me from slicing up myself. AND NOW i will try a HF synthesis
very shortly(which eats away at bones and heart if absorbed through skin) but i dont mind almost dying for the sake of science
and i will continue doing my "experiments" forever. But I would never like, shoot myself in the head, or Stand in a nice cloud
of VX... *BANG*(HEADLINES:::::::::::::::R1ngm45t3r is found dead with large bullethole in head and massive amounts of VX
in bloodstream.....................)HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHa ha ha<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /
>
TEACH THEM A LESSON WITH HF. one athat they will never forget for as long, or short as they live
DONT GET MAD, Anhillate them........<hr /></blockquote>Lol, I had to
edit out thirty-four :mad: 's!!
Hahahaha, I'm still waiting for something useful from you, and still laughing my ass off at you!
Edit:

Helvetica">1 h4v3nt l34rnt 5h1t 4t th15 51t3 yet<hr /></blockquote>Clearly, the poor kid hasn't even learned how to type yet!
HAHAHA!!!!
[ March 16, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
darkdontay March 16th, 2003, 01:23 PM

Maybe if we just ignore him he will wither away.
I have a PDF scan of a book called [please I know the name alone sounds KEWL] "Secret Guide to Making Ninja Weapons".
Now their is a section on making Caltrops. I will upload the book once UPLOAD Premission are resumed.
I'm also looking for some good photos's of polic spike stripes. I would like to find a practical way of making them. Well I'm off
to do more research.
chemwarrior March 16th, 2003, 01:49 PM

80r15, show me just ONE post of yours, on either site, that has actually been useful. Im pretty damn sure you cann't show me
one.
Oh, and btw, you ought know you can not compare sciencemadness.org with roguescience.org. THEY ARE COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT. I mean, come on, one is about explosives and weapons, and the other is about chemistry. They are both, in their
own rights, good sites, but when fools like you begin to cluter them, they begin to go downhill.
So, do EVERYONE a favor and go start your own little 'E&W Forum HED victims website' and save us the trouble of typing out
replies to you.
nbk2000 September 12th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Been a while since I last saw Nightstalkers little parody, god's what a hoot! :D
Anyways, back on topic...
there's a site ran by one of the LANL boys that has an interesting barrier design for vehicles that uses pipe and cable.
Go to http://www.pushback.com/terror/PipeBarrier/ for details.
Here's a picture of a truck hitting the barrier at 40mph and flipping upside-down! :o :)
http://www.pushback.com/terror/PipeBarrier/PipeBarrier.jpeg
The neat thing about this is that it might be possible to use large diameter plastic piping, like that used in agriculture, to build
such a barrier, rather than the steel pipe, since it only needs to make the piggies stop for a minute, while they figure out how
to get around it (which they shouldn't be able to if you position it properly), given you at least a miles headway on them,
making it nearly impossible for them to catch up to you. :p
Another idea I had recently was to use a small explosive charge inside of concrete lightposts to drop them onto the road,
forming an instant road block. They're easy to get into, have a built in power supply, and would easily fracture and fall from a
small charge inside of them. When the pole hit the road, it'd break into many tire-shredding chunks. If luck is with you, then a
few hundreds pounds of concrete will fall on Mr. Pig's head. :D
Dark Meat September 22nd, 2003, 08:48 AM

nbk,
this is hardly a contribution, but way way WAY back up in this thread... well, the first post (yeah, i just read everything, it's late,
and i can't think of anything better) you said putting something extremely slippery on a stairway would have good effects,
since no one would be holding the rails as obviously they are, on invading your turf, far too mighty and powerful for... rails?
anyways, first thing i thought was that when falling, the reaction for me would be to grab out at the rail (i've done this
countless times, minus the lubricant... i am uncoordinated as hell) ... so, wrapping nichrome wire around the rail, assuming
that they won't burn and you know that someone is coming, would enhance the effect by a lot since anyone trying to come up
would a) slip, and either fall to their doom, or slip, and grab at the rail to support their weight... which would result in b) letting
go of the rail quick sharp and falling down to their doom harder.
my theory is, when they grab the rail, they will put all of their weight onto it, and with the shock will practically launch
themselves down the stairs, where if they are simply climbing up, and fall, chances are their body weight would be positioned
forwards.
this post seems a bit k3wl, but i'll post it anything since it conjures interesting images in my head. i had some ideas and
some things my friends and i use on my mind before... so i may post these tomorrow... but now it's late.
Kid Orgo September 22nd, 2003, 04:26 PM
Why not just cover the rail in the slippery shit?
On a similar vein, what about simply loosening the railing until it comes off at a touch?
Anyone ever seen Terrible Secret of Space?
"Do you have stairs in your lair? Piggies must go down the stairs."
nbk2000 September 22nd, 2003, 08:10 PM

Two strips of metal on opposing sides of the rail, connected to an outlet, would do the trick quite handily.
But, RTPB "Plan for Failure" says that it will only be hot when YOU are holding it, not when the pork is, so that rules it out as
being too likely to kill you, and not the pork.
Remember, invading piggies are either in your house and on your ass within a couple minutes, or they pull out and surround
you once they lose the surprise factor.
Thus, under 5 minutes of your life would the cops be inside your house, compared to many years for you to be in there. Who's
the most likely to be killed by a faulty boobytrap in your own home?
Thought so.
Want something safe to store that'd wipe your house clean of all life?
Get a 5 gallon bucket with a lid. Attach a hose from the lid to the air intake of your central air, with a switch so you can turn it
on anytime you need to. Have several gallons of battery acid in the bucket at all times and a paper bag (sealed in a plastic
baggie) with several pounds of sodium cyanide next to the bucket.
Pigs come knocking, you drop the paper bag of cyanide (after removing it from the plastic, duh!) into the acid and slam the lid
on. It'll take a few seconds for the acid to soak through the paper, giving you time to get the lid on before it generates a
pound or so of hydrogen cyanide gas. This is dispersed through your house via the central air and eradicates the highly
annoying indoor pest known as the "kevlar roach". :D
Naturally, the room you are in is NOT vented through the central air system, and you've got a gas mask with an air hose
leading to the outdoors.
Give it five minutes then switch the C/A to vent with external air intake while you go about collecting the goodies off the bodies
of the kevlar roaches. :D
vulture September 23rd, 2003, 06:59 AM

How about boobytrapping or filling the doorhinges with something nasty? The "kevlar roaches" like to kick down doors, thereby
destroying the hinges. When you wander around your house, you're just using the doors as any other normal person would.
Locking the boobytrapped doors might be a good way to make sure they kick it down.
I wonder if a reasonably well painted door on a wall would fool them when they come rushing in. I've seen paintings of doors
on walls which were very realistic, so realistic that I slammed my head into one when trying to walk through. :mad:
Anyways, imagine them trying to kick down a door that's been painted onto the wall. :D

A person could nail a half inch sheet of plywood to a wall studs, cover it with wood veneer (to make it look like a door and not
a sheet of plywood nailed to a wall), attach a doorknob, and surround it with a wood trim.
Voila, decoy door! :D
This is ony feasible on doors that swing towards the person, otherwise you'll have to build a recessed frame for the fake door
and install it into the wall.
Either way, it'd be amusing to see the looks on the kevlar roaches faces when they see a hallway with a dozen "doors', only
one of which is real. :p
The hinges is a good idea, but I've had two doors fall off their hinges in my life, meaning two times I'd have been killed if it
was booby-trapped. :(
Monkeychunks September 25th, 2003, 11:38 AM

For barbbed caltrops, 3-hooked fishing hooks can be heated, bent into shape, and then heat treated again. Chicken wire,
matris springs, or those things they put under cement when building a new road or foundation are good ideas, but not of them
are made of high carbon steel, so they can't be heat treated. You can also make the kinds they sell over the internet by
cutting a piece of sheet metal into a rectangle and then cutting the ends in half about 1/3 of the way and twisting them
outward at a angle.
If nails had large enough heads, you could cut/grind the heads into a triangle shaped blade. That would stick every time.
Ropik April 7th, 2004, 02:03 PM

Very nasty surprise for "rushers" can be made by stretch a thin steel stranded wire in half ankle/knee height and follow it with
carpet/thin rubber sheet/thin plywood board with nails pushed to it. The "Duct nail nasty tape" would work perfectly. When
rusher runs for you, he is stopped by the wire and falls... what is forward? In the best he will need serious finger/palm
treatment.
nbk2000 April 15th, 2004, 01:20 PM

There's a new thing called "Tire Balls", which are inflated balls that are inserted into a tire, and which make it impervious to
flattening, as only the ball that is punctured will deflate, while the others maintain the tires integrity.
Google search using "tire balls" for more info.
xperk April 19th, 2004, 05:57 PM

now why do I get the idea that the company hired a feminist ad agency to name their product? ouch...
Well maybe an explosive low-cost caltrop could do the trick: instead of a nail inserted in the plaster place a short tube with a
.22 in it.
In one end the tube is cut at an angle hence sharp enough to penetrate the tire.
For reasurrance of ignition a pebble or a piece of welding rod may be glued onto a part of the rim of the cartridge - if the tube
has some sort of edge or cut preventing it from falling out of the tire the repeated rotary impacts would at some point set of
the charge and possibly deflate several tire balls due to the ricochette effect..
Secondly on discharge the casing would dislodge itself from the tube allowing for free airflow..
nbk2000 April 20th, 2004, 05:51 PM

I was at an ag. supply store recently and saw thresher blades.
Ooooooooh! :D
Plates of steel shaped like triangles, with razor sharp serrated edges, and big as the palm of my hand. :) And only $1/each.
:D
I'm thinking if they were welded to hinges, and attached to a segmented strip that could be rolled out across a road, that'd be
more than adequate for deflating even truck tire.
The blades would lie flat till a cable pull that ran through them lifted them up into cutting position, whereupon the end of the
blade would fit into a slot cut into the strip that would support it in the vertical position.
These could be easily welded into a permanent upright position and fixed to the road with a power-driver to form an
impassable barrier to [MIL-SPEAK]shape your battlespace[/MIL-SPEAK] and aid your E&E from carnivorous pork. :p
Anders April 20th, 2004, 09:27 PM

On the subject of creating a smokescreen, one sure way is using diesel-oil.
The consept is nothing more than a variation of the trusted russian method of creating a smokescreen on their MBTs.
Just mount a spare windscreen washer pump +reservoir on a vacant space in the engine compartmeet, connect it to the
electrical system, then make a contact for it in the cab.
Next, drill a hole in the exhaust pipe as close to the engine as possible. Connect the hose from the pump with a piece of
copper tubing(to protect the original plastic tubing from the heat) and fix it on to the exhaust pipe.
Then just add diesel-oil to the reservoir and when needing a big, dense, white/grey smoke screen , just hit the button for your
alternative windscreen washer. (note: a)the exhaust system must have operational temp. to work and b) this is both toxic and
must likely to violate most trafic laws in the world, but boy does it work !!!!
nbk2000 May 12th, 2004, 09:22 PM

For protecting yourself against nails, spikes, and glass shards, there's now a shoe insert available from www.kpindustries.com
called the "Pro Safety Sole", that'll help protect you from these impediments.
RTPB "Plan for Failure" says you must be prepared to defend against your own weapons.
Bigfoot May 12th, 2004, 11:10 PM

To restrict movement:
ATF. No, not the feds, ;) the red gunk you put in your automatic transmission to keep it working. Slippery to walk on. Have a
car with a bad tranny seal, leaked about 3 quarts onto garage floor last winter. I've done cleanup with kaolin, but I won't walk
on it when wet, 'cause it's still quite slippery when wet. Floor is concrete, drive is asphalt.
Both are slippery. The asphalt is worse, though. Stayed slipperier longer, dry.
As for a vehicular smokescreen, my favorite expedient is a dry-chemical fire extinguisher. I'm a total nut for the 5 lb. models,
keep a few on hand and charged. When I pick up a "salvage" unit, I empty it on the street, where the community college kids
drag race. Very nice "smoke screen." Lasts a minute or 2 in still air. Discharged from a moving car...do it once and be hooked.
Can't be arrested for having a couple big extinguishers in your car, ready to go! Your mechanic won't think anything of it. And
they'll double as fire control devices!
teshilo May 14th, 2004, 08:46 AM

For urban actions possible combinations as smoke+oil+spikes may be used againsts both personell and cars, and as about
booby-trapped caltrops.?Any who want cleaned road with caltrops, get the very big surprise :D
THAT Dude August 21st, 2004, 04:52 PM

Have you ever seen those tent poles that have an elastic band running down the center ,some of them are designed to unfold
and snap in place on their own(if you hold just one end,throw it in air, etc).
If you made some thing simular but had spikes or blades sticking out it would hopefully act as a spike strip that you could
throw out the window of a moving vehicle. ;)
Contaning them maybe a problem from a concelment stand point
,as they are odd looking and dangerous it would be hard to have ready to use and not have to worry about sitting one,
but you could mount one or more under your vehicle pretty esely as long as you take steps to make shore that it/they did not
spring out and slash your tires when you deploy them.
Some sort of delay mechanism should be used to keep that from happening,but I'm not shore how you would rig that :(
:confused: .
You might want to rig it to explode by remote for more kick to punch thrue steel belted tires or to damage the under side of
the car(transmission,etc).
nbk2000 October 20th, 2006, 01:28 PM

Found the proximity fuze circuit for the PDM in US Patent 3939770. :)
And a related one in US Patent 3754508.
billybobjoe October 20th, 2006, 04:19 PM

I just had an idea, you can rent one of those abrasive chop saws for about 23 bucks a day. So rent it and buy a few hundred
feet of 1/4 inch round by 1/16 wall mild steel tubing, about a hudred bucks. Then set the mitre to 45 deg and just keep
cutting them off at 2". Put these into your plaster caltrops and they would do a nice job to feet, cars, or trucks.
teshilo October 21st, 2006, 11:39 AM

Modern caltrops patents:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5921703&F=0
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=FR2780077&F=0
Meawoppl October 21st, 2006, 02:38 PM

I was bored once and put a number of wood screws through the sides of a coke bottle. In the year that it occupied my desk it
occured to me that if such a construction were run over by a car would likely cause at least one or more of the screws to
puncture the tire, attaching the bottle to the wheel and making an awful noise as the car bumped over it each time.
The leak would likely be slow, unless the bottle was forcibly pulled out b/c the screw threads would ream the hole they left.
I imagine it would be rather effective if planted in front of a parked car. Not to mention the fact that it would just look like
trash to the casual observer.
[edit]
Another good note about railways, you can feel a train for miles ahead on the rails . . . admittledy that may be harder if going
100 mph+.
[edit #2]
Do I get any credit for catching the "Wintermute" joke? It was a good one Nightstalker.
Hirudinea October 22nd, 2006, 01:01 AM

Modern caltrops patents:
http://v3.espacenet.com/jpeg?PN=US5921703
That picture reminds me of metal corner shelf brackets I've seen at Home Depot, with a Dremel you might be able to make
some of the above.
the_twitchy1 October 22nd, 2006, 02:48 PM

One idea that I didn't see was tripointed fishhooks tied together in a net. A single trihook fishhook is not that useful as a
caltrop as it will bend under shoes instead of impaling them.
However, tying them together in a 4' x 4' net of fine wire (or even fishing line) will cause them to 'wrap around' a target leg,
catching on clothing and skin. And a barbed hook is a HUGE pain to remove from a body part, I can tell you from experience.
It would only work with targets that are moving relatively fast, as someone taking their time wouldn't have a 'wraparound'
effect. It still would slow them down, though, as removing a barbed fishhook from a shoe is hard, too.
Jacks Complete October 22nd, 2006, 08:07 PM

See http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/improvised-weapons/5776-stop-sticks.html for discussion of a related item, the "Stop
stick".
Alexires October 22nd, 2006, 10:23 PM

I was just thinking.
How about using small springs? You should be able to buy a heap of inch long springs and spread them over the floor.
Also, I'm assuming due to its name (Hi speed chase) excessive speed will be involved. On a trip up north a month or so back,
we were following a 4 wheel drive when the tires must have picked up a stone and thrown it with such force at the bottom of the
car that it bounced back down, hit the road and then bounced high enough to smash into the middle of our windscreen.
Have a light metal plate that covers the bottom of your car (similar to a bash plate, but bigger and thinner). When the piggies
are in chase, have some way of dumping a few hundred (or thousand) bb's, marbles or ceramic balls on the road.
Hopefully they would bounce off the bottom of the car and go high enough to do some damage to windscreen or somethings
else.
Even if they don't, if your in an urban area a thousand bb's doing 80 km/h (50 miles an hour) are going to break a whole lot
of shit.
Hirudinea October 22nd, 2006, 11:57 PM

On a trip up north a month or so back, we were following a 4 wheel drive when the tires must have picked up a stone and
thrown it with such force at the bottom of the car that it bounced back down, hit the road and then bounced high enough to
smash into the middle of or windscreen.
in an urban area a thousand bb's doing 80 km/h (50 miles an hour) are going to break a whole lot of shit.
Mabye you could modify a hubcap on the rear wheel to throw BBs at someone chasing you by its rotational speed?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Taplight landmines
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View Full Version : Taplight landmines
A-BOMB November 29th, 2001, 09:53 AM

You all have seen these lights that you push the top and they light (I had a url for the site that sells them) so it is a allmost premade landmine just take it apart and pull out
the light bulb and grind of the tip and fill with AP or HDMT and fill the rest of the body with ANFO or ANHM snap back together put in batterys and bury. So thats my idea for
today.
------------------
live by the bomb

die by the bomb
------------------
And come to my not so done SITE HERE (http://paintball-and-stuff.freesevers.com)
Energy84 November 29th, 2001, 03:34 PM

Whoa, man, that's a wicked idea! Simple as hell too! I'm gonna have to remember that one...
So, who's gonna test it out? hehehe
------------------
why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

As long as they use an actual bulb and not an LED.
You could use them to replace exisiting buttons on equipment. Or stick one to a wall in a public place, maybe with a sticker above it saying "do not press".
CyclonitePyro November 29th, 2001, 07:45 PM

Grinding the bulb seems too time and effort consuming without cracking the thing, just stick an ignitor in place of the bulb, and if the voltage isn't high enough add a nine volt
to whatever battery type they use.
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"
Madog555 November 29th, 2001, 07:54 PM

Badass idea...
i like it!
------------------
"True freedome is not without anarchy"
A-BOMB November 29th, 2001, 08:01 PM

Ya isn't it. It just came to me while looking for a replacement bulb for the one in my gunsafe.
------------------
live by the bomb

die by the bomb
------------------

Just fill it up with AP. Why bother with ANFO and detonators when it can be so simple?
How much do they cost in bulk anyways? $1 or less each?
A little silicon sealant around the edges and it should be fairly waterproof.
------------------

If the ones you're thinking about are the same as the ones I'm thinking about you'll have to be bloody careful. They can be very sensitive...
------------------
A-BOMB November 30th, 2001, 08:50 AM

Ya AP would work and you get them for about .50 cents each if you buy a shipping crate of 1000 and they sell them in stores for 6 for $19 USD!
------------------
live by the bomb

die by the bomb
------------------

make it claymore style.
3 layers of 3/8 steel balls, on the doampaint the inside of the doam wih white paint so it hides what inside. Use AP putty in the bulb and NC/PeTN with some acetone to make
it cast well. Great idea.
------------------
Go <a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak">here</a> to download my files.
DaRkDwArF December 20th, 2001, 06:19 AM

I found them for $3 AU (about $1.60 US) each today, I think I'll invest in 5 or so to do some testing, even a .12ga pointing stright up so it takes the foot off a target would be
an idea
------------------
NoltaiR December 20th, 2001, 12:22 PM

Nice idea, but would it work well in the field? How long do you think these things would last (in place of a military landmine) setting in the ground before the dirt would corrode
the casing? Possibly wrapping them in aluminum foil may solve this (or a hell of a lot of silicon sealant) for a while.. as long as the explosive you are using lasts a while...
The great side to this is with a little work, they can be made to avoid metal detectors that the enemy would use normally to find the military grade mines (you may need to
leave out the aluminum foil idea..) so long as you can make it work without a battery... this can be solved possibly by wireless transmission of energy (anyone heard of Nikola
Tesla?)
------------------
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.
-Thomas Jefferson
A-BOMB December 20th, 2001, 01:50 PM

Thats easy just go out it to hillbilly land and look in all the old stores till you find a store that has those old paper cased batteries and cut all but a little bit of the metal off the
end (just anothe to get eletrical contact) and use very thin wires or carbon rods, to the igniter.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
------------------

If you are looking to make this thing metal detector proof you are looking in the wrong directon, military mines don't use battery's not only for that reason but they have a
shelf life, and they aren't as reliable as the impact and chemichal initiators they use, I don't think corrosion will be a problem with the thing unless it gets wet and the internals
get destroyed witch a little plastic wrap could fix. the things are literally just plastic. if you are looking for a tesla solution to not need battery's you will never get that to work if
Tesla couldn't (well, short of radiowaves) you cant.
------------------
DaRkDwArF December 21st, 2001, 07:33 AM

simple solution: make them the night before you use them, if it's a planned attack (all I'd use these things for) then you can plant them at all exits and on walls where
doorknobs will hit, etc...
------------------
Agent Blak December 22nd, 2001, 01:37 AM

When the jack booted thugs come gunning for you you have to remember the tactics: BlitzKreige(Lighting War)-They use speed to over whelm you.
This means that they will not be tippy-toeing around paying close attention to opening doors gently. One person here said that they are all just adreniline junkies. use this to
your advantages; High stressif they utilize speed as a main weapon and they can't use if the bomb squad has to come in for every door = more time for you to give them the
slip.
Do or do not;
there is no try.
--Master Yoda of the grand jedi legancey
nice choice DwArF.
------------------
"If You Dance With The Devil,
The Devil Don't Change The devil will Change you"
vehemt December 23rd, 2001, 02:53 AM

To decrease sensitivity you could replace the spring inside.
To protect them, just seal all cracks with sealant (rubber cement, silicon sealant, whatever).
The sealant between the dome switch and main body would also decrease sensitivity.
As they are, they could easily explode from the weight of soil you use to hide them.
Dont forget to be a responsible miner and mark the locations of the mines on a map for future removal.
TheShadow December 28th, 2001, 11:45 AM

actually assuming this is a real light bulb you could inject a gas into it and when the light goes onit lights the gas, same premice but eisier, actually you can do that with real
light bulbs, but you have to seal the hole you make cus it must be a vacuum
(Enough with your KeWl nonsense, putting gasoline in a tiny taplight bulb will likely do nothing only in the Anarchist's KeWl Book do lightbulb "BoMbZ" explode in real life a
lightbulb filled with "gasoline" will probably not have enough air to even burn. and with a vacuume it is more likely to do nothing, not a good first post)
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited December 28, 2001).]
EP March 16th, 2002, 07:03 PM

Sorry to bump an old topic, but for waterproofing you could skip all the silicone sealant stuff and just use a good sized ziplock bag or two. I've got a few lights, and once my
supplies are replenished this summer I plan on testing this idea. Maybe I can find a RC car to run over it...
nbk2000 March 17th, 2002, 12:29 AM

I'd toss in a couple of dissicant capsules to prevent an moisture condensation inside of the bag from possibly shorting out the taplight.
frostfire September 2nd, 2002, 04:19 PM

I believe most of us had touched the idea in the early days.
I recalled trying the similar concept with R/C power panel, a simple glow plug and/or light bulb device and just about a tip of a spatula AP. It worked wonder with slightest
finger press or foot press.
I never go any further, but the simplicity had kept me wondering if an improvised "bouncing betty" can me made with such method.
A-BOMB September 2nd, 2002, 10:02 PM

Well lets see, I just got some more taplights and a digital camera so fun time here again.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > 12ga Dart Gun
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View Full Version : 12ga Dart Gun
ST June 26th, 2001, 03:50 AM

http://server3004.freeyellow.com/stx/dartgun.gif
I did this to post within the "high velocity steel slug" or whatever thread before it was closed.
The dart is made out of a 12ga wad with a nail pushed through it and epoxied in. This is used to reduce the recoil so that it can be used in a handgun but still provide good
penetration.
The guns pretty much the same as a design i posted before.
------------------
ST
posted pictures (http://server3004.freeyellow.com/stx/forumpics.html)
ANTI-SYSTEM June 26th, 2001, 01:51 PM

this can be made or bought? looks like a modified flare gun.
ST June 26th, 2001, 04:46 PM

Made, its just two bits of pipe and endcaps welded together + firing pin/plunger/trigger.
To fire, unscrew the barrel, insert cartridge, screw barrel back on, pull plunger back, pull trigger.
------------------
ST
Mexican Pizza June 26th, 2001, 06:45 PM

You wouldn't happen to have any more detailed directions to make that would you?

You don't need any more directions to make it, its right there in front of you.
ST why would you make that into a dart pistol? First off.. Turning a wad upside down is going to make it sail all over the place, and second... its only going to penetrate the
length of the nail. Therefore, nonlethal (unless you use a gutter spike...nah). Why not just leave the the shotshell alone and use it that way?
The only use i could see for a dart, would be a Cap-chur type dart, filled with a tranquilizer.
------------------
BaDSeeD

The nail could be armour piercing, but a drill bit would be better.
I like the design of the pistol though, do you reckon it be ok with a regular shot load?
I suppose it could be simplified by not having the trigger and just pulling back and releasing the plunger to fire, but the trigger would obviously better for a little more work.
PYRO500 June 26th, 2001, 11:12 PM

I say it'd be better to get a brass chambered flare gun, saw off the end that is narrower than the shell andget a flanged pipe that fits on the barrel, then slip a piece of pipe
bigger than the new barrel over the first half of the barrel and stuff the space with fiberglass insulation so it dosent get hot and you can hold it, if I have time I will draw a pic.
that would be less likely to take off your hand, so long as you securely solder it together. BTW, do shotgun blanks have a wad? i've never disasemmbled one before.
ST June 27th, 2001, 05:42 AM

Mexican Pizza,
There is no point giving more detailed plans for a gun that has to be improvised out of what you can get, use the picture as a basic idea as you can bet that if you tried to
make it, it wouldnt end up looking anything like the picture.
Badseed,
The point was to lower recoil, obviously it isnt a long range weapon but i think it would fly strait enough for what it is meant, i was assuming the nail would come away from
the plastic when it hit. You could also probably just use the primer as propellant, just to muck around with, and reusable.
You say to use full load shotshells ... ive never shot a handgun but shurely it would have a lot of kick, especially in a dodgied up handgun.
Could you use a wrist support, such as that found on some slingshots?
------------------
ST
[This message has been edited by ST (edited June 27, 2001).]
imported_Sgt_Starr June 27th, 2001, 11:58 AM

Depending on the size of the load and the position of the arm brace Im sure it would be possible to brake your arm dislocate elbow, big bruises any number of things I meen if
you dont hold the gun right you can break your shoulder with a good shot gun and 00 buck

A 2" nail weighs practically nothing so recoil shouldn't be a problem. If you were to fire a hot load though, what I'd do is instead of the cocking plunger, have a bolt in side of
the reciever. That would leave a nice flat surface at the rear of the gun (the end cap). Then I'd hold the pistol by the grip at arms length in my right hand, then lock my left
arm out straight and put the heel of my hand firmly up against the end cap. That way, when you fired the gun, it would push straight back along your left arm (which is locked
so doesn't bend) rather than bending back your wrist on your right hand.
I might give on of these 12ga pistols a go, .410 pistols were apparently popular self defense weapons years ago.
PYRO500 June 27th, 2001, 10:05 PM

what if you fired a rubber bouncy ball from it? would it sting like hell? or if it hit something solid would it bounce to great hieghts?

When I was younger some friends and I got our hands on a double barreled twelve gauge (side by side). It was a cheap sears and roebuck (before it was just known as
sears). Well we fired all kinds of shit outa this gun. We had no problem getting shotgun shells for it, as most of our fathers hunted. But we took shells apart and put nails in
them, rock salt, even lengths of piano wire with split shot on the end. Anyhow, after all this abuse, our barrel was taking a beating. One of the barrels had started to swell near
the choke, and the other split completely. Nearly looking like a peeled banana. Well seing as it wasnt really safe anymore, and looked like hell, out came the hack saw. We cut
the barrels down to I'd have to guess here... never actually measured it, but they had to be around 6 - 8 inches. They were cut down to just a bit in front of the hand guard.
And while we were at it, we also cut the stock into a crude pistol grip. We continued to shoot this thing for years, but only with factory ammo, none of the funky shit that had
destroyed it in the first place. We fired slugs, buckshot, and birdshot, and many of them were even magnum loads. No broken wrists, no dislocated fingers or elbows, just
ringing ears. The point is, that a short barrel is going to give you less recoil than a longer gun, simply because the powder dosn't all burn before the projectile exits the barrel.
Shotguns use slow burning powder if you didn't know. Therefore less velocity, and less recoil. Regardless of whatever the projectile ways, it will always be lower with a smaller
barrel. I can even remember firing a load of bird shot out of that gun at a snow man, at close range. I remember the big black mark that it left from the unburned powder. In
conclusion, I'd say, that as long as your barrel and breech are strong enough to withstand the pressure, you shouldnt have any problems.
------------------
BaDSeeD

Yeah but if I made one I'd be using black powder as the propellant. Obvious for me to do would just start with a small amount of shot and gradually add more and observing
the forces on my wrist.
Interesting story BaDSeeDhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
SawedOff8gaugeman June 29th, 2001, 03:50 PM

Shooting a sawed-off is an art http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif As it could be shooting some kind of cannon-class pistol(I've never tried, but could mention
.45-70s and 50BMGs http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif).
Usually handcannons have longer barrel than your 6-8 inches. What I didn't know was that so short-barreled handcannon could be easily fired by kids (did I figure it out right ??
) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif Were the ammo maybe blackpowder ones, I've thought many shotshells have fast-burning powder?
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited June 29, 2001).]
AR-15 Man June 30th, 2001, 03:02 PM

If you have the knob straight back you arm not your wrist takes up a lot of the recoil. Your arm will slowly take up the recoil. That is the art of sawed of shotguns. As for
Handcannons you just have to take it like a bitch and hope your first shot hits. I am talking like the 45-70 and Mountain Eagle pistol's in 30-06.
The_Coyote August 2nd, 2001, 12:07 AM

I just am planning to make this gun. I am making it with galvanized steel tubing.. I was just wondering if anyone has made one of these (or something similer... ex:a slam
bang)and if they can tell me approximatly how many times i could fire it before it "shoots out" the barrel. And instead of welding might I be able to use zinc solder?
BaDSeeD August 2nd, 2001, 02:58 AM

I wouldn't solder, or braze anything on a gun. Its not safe. I would also prefer finding an alternative to welding (simply because i'm not that good at it). My advice for anything
gun related... buy yourself a set of taps and dies. Threads are a hell of a lot stronger than welds in my oppinion. And you can always dismantle a treaded weapon. Not a
welded one.
About the shotgun I had mentioned previously. An interesting bit about how we nearly got busted. Nearby where i lived growing up was a very large public park (Deleware
Park), anyhow, we used to sneak out there very early in the morning, or late at night and do some shooting. Most of the time we'd just pop off a few shots, and either no one
knew what the noise was, or simply didn't care. Well our normal targets were beer cans, barbage cans, trees, the odd sea gull that flew by, etc. Well eventually in our travels
we found a spot along the water that used to house a lot of rats. Not your garden variety squeakers, i'm talking BIG fuckin 20+ pound rats! We used to make it a weekly trip
to go there and shoot as many of the bastards as we could. It got to the point that we would go through a whole box of birdshot (25 shells) and still have more "targets" than
ammo. Anyhow we scrounged as much ammo as we could, and made almost a whole night of shooting. I think we had upwards of 200 shells that night. Anyhow, our normal
25 or so shells would usually go unnoticed by anyone (or so we thought). But that night, we had to make a run for it when two police cruisers showed up. They were covering
the park pretty good, and sooner or later were going to find us if we didn't find a really good place to hide. We thought (geniuses that we were) to go up the huge sewage
pipe at the one end of the park. I'm not even going to describe the smells. Well it never dawned on us that we were going to find MORE and BIGGER rats there. We were
moving through the pipe kinda haunched over with only my friends pen light to see by, when a rat that was the size of a fucking beagle came down the tube towards us. Well
my friend didn't think, or care about the consequences, and shot the thing at about 5 feet away. After a few minutes we could just about hear each other if we screamed in
each others faces. And we ran the rest of the length of the pipe to the other side. By this time the cops, fire department, water authority, sewer authority, and gas company
had several vehicles pulling up manhole covers, and blocking off the street because of a "methane gas explosion". Well with all the people around, that was the last time we
saw the gun. One of the guys stuck the barrel in the mud, and then stood on it to make sure it was well burried. We didn't want to take a chance in getting caught with it. And
that was the end of our fun.
Ya know its a damned shame that I didnt know how to make anything stronger than a BP bomb back then. Could have made for some very interesting ways of exterminating
ratshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Heh... that was a long and useless post. Hope it was entertaining at least.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Sako August 3rd, 2001, 02:16 PM

Welding is supposed to be just as strong, if not stronger than the base metal. if you use a tap and die set, use fine threads instead of coarse, because fine thread is stronger, at
lest that's what I heard
Anthony August 3rd, 2001, 03:20 PM

I would have thought fine threads would have stripped easier? Welds are very strong, but under flexing loads they can crack and break.
Sako August 3rd, 2001, 04:23 PM

I scanned this out of Machine Tool Operation EM-965....
REASONS FOR FINER PITCHES (NATIONAL FINE) Threads in automobile work are cut in hard tough materials and do not require to be so coarse as threads cut in cast iron. A
screw or bolt a given size and of finer pitch has greater mirror diameter and consequently greater strength than a coarse-pitch screw of same size. A fine-pitch screw or nut
may be set up tighter. And does not shake loose so readily as One Of Coarse Pitch
Ericm115 August 19th, 2001, 12:51 AM

I guess yall didnt realize what his gun is... It a paintball gun. Pull back the hammer and release it with the trigger... with a little modification, and cheap stingray could be made
to fire shells
Energy84 August 19th, 2001, 03:11 AM

If anybody uses bolts, be sure to get high quality "Grade 8" bolts. They have a sort of golden color to them instead of the chrome color that regular bolts have. The "Grade 8"
ones are waay stronger. I can't remember the figures off hand, but I've seen comparison sheets between regular and grade 8 bolts. I work at a hardware/agriculture store so I
might be able to find those sheets and bring 'em home to scan if anybody's interested.
------------------
why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?
Fingerless September 3rd, 2001, 08:01 PM

A good weld should be stronger, and as flexible, as the base metal. Threads will NOT be as strong as a weld.
Also, to the guy that said a shotgun will break your shoulder if you dont shoot it right-well, either you dont know much about guns, or your a 60 pound weakling. Shotguns kick
is not that bad, even a 10 gauge, especially compared to other guns-toughen up! I have yet to see someone with a broken shoulder from a 12 gauge, even shooting heavy 2
ounce magnum turkey loads.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Gun Cane
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Zyklon_B June 27th, 2002, 09:30 PM

Anyone know of how to m a k e a G u n C a n e ? A s i m p l e , e a s y t o m a k e c a n e t h a t h a s a b u i l t i n g u n ?

A built in gun? If you mean a one shot gun, then that would be pretty ea sy...
Just embed a little pipe in the bottom , after ho llowing it out via drilling.
T h e f a n c y a l u m inum canes wo uld probably be best for this.
After you have the "barrel", you just have to rig up a firing m ech a n i s m .
...hmm ...
probably som ething initiated from the other end of the cane (the top?) that fires out of the bottom / b a s e .
Ideally, it wont be som ething that is held back all the tim e and is "released" when you want to fire, thus reducing risk of it
goin g off at a... bad tim e.
I a m trying to think o f a way to only use a short length of pipe, like under a foot, but it may be ea sier to have the pipe the
entire length of the cane, with the firing mechanism on top.
If you can't think of any way to make the firing m echanism in th is scenario, you don't nee d to be playing with this toy.
ST June 28th, 2002, 12:32 PM

look at the first picture in m y sig.
T h i s d e s i g n s h o u l d b e e a s y t o imbed into a cane/umbrella etc. just do away with the handle/trigger then just tie a string to the
plun ger and run the string up to the handle where it could be pulled back and released wh en you want to fire.
This design was actually m odelled off one of "Lowrys" guns in reference to this <a href="h ttp://www.roguesci.org/ubb/
ultim atebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001316" target="_blank">thread</a>, i never saw it actually firing, nor the inner m oving
parts but his had this same action.
jelly June 28th, 2002, 02:22 PM

@Zykon-B... try to get a copy of david truby's b o o k " z i p s , p i p e s a n d p e n s - a r s e n a l o f i m p rovised weapons"
and you'll fin d p h o t o s a n d e x p l o d e d d r a w i n g s o f a c a n e g u n ( a s a s i l e n c e d . 2 2 L R c a l . d e f e n s e w e a p o n : ) ) .
but the nicest weapon in this book is ZAPPER - a z i p p o g u n : D
Harry July 2nd, 2002, 11:50 AM

I have the book, Zips, Pipes, and Pens. Testament to human will. As for the canegun, ZAPPER, and othe Sardaukar Press
shooters, I h ave the com plete set of p lans. Just gotta get them scanned. Trouble is, they're printe d on weird-sized paper that
doesn't fit my scanne r. W hen I find a way to get them scanned, I'll upload to FTP (when I get acce ss).
Harry
xoo1246 July 2nd, 2002, 12:09 PM

Great, I'm interested in that b o o k t o o .
I h a v e m a d e m yself som e sim ple electrically fired pipe guns at several o ccasions, they are only propelled by m a t c h h e a d
composition and sealed in the end with a centim eter hot glue. They can be quite powerfull actually. I have m a d e t h e m out o f
everything from steel to plastic(plastic ones tend to explode, I always use cover so it's not a problem ). Electrical ign ition could
be a solution since you can place the trigger anywhere if you have no need for reloading.
johnn 99 July 18th, 20 02, 01:1 1 AM

H A R R Y , D o y o u h a p p e n t o h a v e t h e s a rdaukar plans to convert an AR-7 to full auto? I ahve been looking for them for ages.
plea se let me know. thanks!
Fl4P P4W0k July 18th, 20 02, 05:2 6 AM

Ive uploaded som e o f my sketches of a Zip gun idea.
I had it built, in a rather hacked up form - and it worked fine.
Usin g .22 blanks and .22 air rifle pellets (6m m airsoft BBs in the prototype :p ) its got enuff power to hurt like hell. In the
face. Ouch.
<a href="http://www.blitzm illennium.net/rob/Guns/O ther" target="_blank">http://www.blitzmillennium .net/rob/Guns/Other</a>
There are a few sketches there.... a little confusing (rea d : m a k e n o f u c k i n g s e n s e t o a n y o n e b u t m e) but theyre there...
Also, check out <a href="http://www.blitzm illennium.net/rob/" target="_blank">http://www.blitzm illennium.net/rob/</a>

for a few pics and stuff...
l8r,
rob
lac July 18th, 20 02, 02:2 0 PM
a b o u t a w e e k a g o i w a s o n v a c a t i o n t o c o p e n h a g e n d e n m ark. and becouse the are a lot of hunters in m y fam ily (me,my
d a d , h i s d a d , a n d m y two onkels) So we went to "jag og skovbrugs m u s e u m et"(hunting and forrest use m useum) there where
s o m e very cool cane guns. there was even a 12 guage shotguns cane. the reason they wh e r e m a d e w a s b e c o u s e h u n t i n g u s e d
to belong to the king. And if you breaked this law you would loose your head. :)
Harry July 18th, 20 02, 02:3 5 PM

John 99, that's an affirmative. As I m entioned before, I don't yet have FTP access, nor ha v e I b e e n a b l e t o g e t a g o o d s c a n o f
the plans--they're done full scale, so I want it done righ t.
Harry
Eliteforum July 18th, 20 02, 03:3 8 PM

Speaking of weapons, does anyone want me to post a breakdown of a HK SL8-1 trigger group breakdown?
lac did you take any pictures on this visit? I would love to see some of those weapons.
lac July 18th, 20 02, 04:2 8 PM

no i did not take pictures <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Resident Evil July 18th, 20 02, 05:3 1 PM

Eliteforum, im intrested in that takedown, I love HK wea p o n s .
angelo July 21st, 2002, 09:31 AM

Has anyone thought of using electronic ignition for the gun cane?
Unless of course your looking for m ore than a one shot cane electronic ignition would be alot easier for those of us that can't
m ake the little pieces for a sp ring loaded pin hitting the prim er.
And alot safer too.
As since it is a cane it will suffer from knocks and will most probably get hit around alot. If it is set off by a spring it could
easily dislodge and go off accidently when you least expect it to.
It would probably take out your foot.
auzquad July 21st, 2002, 11:07 AM

learn to spell
<sm all>[ July 22, 2002, 07:17 AM: Me ssage edited by: Machiavelli ]
Anthony July 21st, 2002, 08:45 PM

Dude, "electronic ignition" im plies an solely electrical solution. W hat you describe is a electro-m echanical system and wouldn 't
b e m u c h l e s s c o m plex than a purely m echanical one.
Basically, ele ctronic ignitor in place of the prim er, 9v battery and m omentary switch, nice, sim ple and reliable. Although I'd put
a covered arm ing switch in too for safe ty.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Rocket Thrust
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Hercules June 28th, 2002, 05:39 PM

Did anyone dream about how much the maximum ammount of explosives (In grams) a rocket, powered by a class C Estes engine can carry without disturbing flightbalance
recently? I will not take the risk of the thing going off pre-takeoff, since the Al casing I am planning to use, produces quite a load of shrapnel upon detonation. And another
thing, is there a law :confused: against making remote-controlled rockets? (the ones you can actually maneuver during flight)This looks like a hell of a project to me...

the C class motors will produce anywhere from 5-10N(newton seconds) of thrust. you do the maths.
if you looking for something thats going to lift heaps of HE - make your own motors. best site to look is <a href="http://www.nakka-rocketry.com"
target="_blank">www.nakka-rocketry.com</a>
as for making a remote controled rocket. it pointless trying make one if you going to be using estes motors, they don't last very long, and there expensive as all hell.
on another note, you've made 2 new topics, both have been pretty simple questions that could have been answered quite quickly had you bothered to search the forum, and
search the net.
and seriously - change your fucking signature you tool.
where did you find out about the The forum? totse.com or wierdpier.com
[ June 28, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Mick ]

hercules, why not do the experiment youself and post the results? you don;t need to use explosives to fill the rockets to find the maximum mass launchable. use sand and
afterwards you can post the results.
the site Mick has refered to is actually
<a href="http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/" target="_blank">http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/</a>
it will have everything you are looking for apart from specific answer such as how much explosive can be carried by a rocket of unspecified dimensions launched in an
unspecified manner.
change that signature NOW or be destroyed :mad:
anarchy is an imposibility. society may be fucked and anarchy may seem like a solution but its not and i'm not going to get into it here.
as far as i am aware this topic is over if any other mods disagree then reopen it.
also no more new topics since your a newbie. read the rules and obey them. another violation such as this will result in HED.

I suppose this thread could still be salvaged... When you design a rocket, weight and amount of thrust are not the only two factors. You may have enough thrust, but the
rocket could still be unstable.
Generally, to ensure rocket stability, the center of gravity must be above the center of pressure. When I say "above", I mean closer to the nosecone, since that is the direction
the rocket will be firing, right? I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but these are the big ones that Amateurs/Model Rocket Enthusiasts consider. Now, some definitions:
Center of Gravity- This is the point where the rocket's weight is balanced. If this is not clear, try picking up a pencil and balancing it on one finger. The point at which it
balances without tipping is the center of gravity.
Center of Pressure- As a model rocket flies through the air, aerodynamic forces act on all parts of the rocket. In the same way that the weight of all the rocket components acts
through the center of gravity (cg), the aerodynamic forces act through a single point called the center of pressure (cp). (definition taken from <a href="http://
www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/rktcp.html" target="_blank">http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/rktcp.html</a> ).
It is possible to move the Center of Pressure up and down the rocket to ensure stability. This is achieved by increasing the area of the tailfins...i.e.: making the tailfins bigger.
All very basic information, but necessary if you want your rockets to have any hope of flying.
EDIT- In the United States, any guidance system on a rocket is illegal. Any rockets that fly over 1,000 feet require permission from the FAA to launch. Rockets that carry
payloads that contain explosives, harmful chemicals, live animals (with the exception of insects), are also illegal. If you buy a C-class Estes engine, they come with a little
pamphlet that talks about rocketry. It covers anything that is illegal.
[ June 28, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]

why do you say guided model rockets are illegal? I looked in 14 CFR - CHAPTER I - PART 101 and a few other places and found no such refrence. Granted a 'model' (ie
unregulated for the purposes of this post) rocket is going to have a very short burn time engine, making it rather impracticle to guide, but thats obviously not a legal issue...

I had heard somewhere that guidance systems in rockets were illegal. But that was just word-of-mouth. I will trust you, pyromaniac- they aren't illegal.

shit, forgot to close the topic last night....good info MySamosa.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised Munitions
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<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/002.JPG" alt=" - " />
Now wouldn't this have it's uses in the world of improvised weapons? As the "head, or tip" of the "bullet" can be projectile, this mean's you can attach any number of screw in
projectile.
Or you can modify the screw already in it. Either by cutting an upside down V into it to make a sharp point in the screw, even little arrow's could be screwed/welded into it.
If one would use these in a real gun, they would need to be cut down in size to fit into the mag of the gun. But these would have great use in improvised rifle's/handguns.
You don't have to worry about wonky flight of the projectile, as they can be perfectly centered, if it's too much weight on the backend, simply unscrew the screw part a little
until it's centered, too heavy on the tip? simple screw in a little more till it's centered.
The possibility's are endless! More to come. Including pictures of a test fire with the modified munitions.
DBSP July 4th, 2002, 08:01 PM

Would you mind telling me what tha fuck this is.

Erm.. a topic on improvised munitions?

Look even I understand that, but how is it suposed to work?
[ July 04, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
MrSamosa July 4th, 2002, 08:13 PM

I think these people mean, what are these pictures of? You can show us pictures, but if you don't explain them we're just as lost as if you didn't have pictures at all.

Ok, well basically you can use it however you want, it's just a projectile.
I assume you could pack it into a pipe with a black powder charge to propel it in a somewhat basic "zip gun". I just thought it make spark some interest, as it's 9mm, and can
be modified in a number of different ways, and also has the option of being able to change the "tip" or "lead projectile".
Perhaps your an assassin, and need to change a round of high explosive, to a silent poison. It's quick, easy, silent, and just screws in. How you would do this I leave to you,
I'm not a gun smith.
A quick edit, I put it into a PDF as this explains it better, as I can't do an ALT tag (image description in HTML form) here's the link: <a href="http://www.boomspeed.com/
eliteforum/Improvised_Munitions.pdf.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/Improvised_Munitions.pdf.jpg</a> You need to delete the *.jpg extension
for the PDF to open. (host only allows image format)
[ July 04, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]

I'm not in the mood for this kind of shit. What excactly do you mean to accomplish by adding a heavy metal cylinder at the back of the case?

Maybe this should explain what I mean, as it's more simplistic. And DBSP, just because it's that time of a month for you doesn't mean you have to get pissy.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/zipgun.gif" alt=" - " />
Where the projectile is, you simple put your modified screw in projectile.

Ok now I get it.
The "projectile" will be to heavy when using this design. And at that there will be absolutely nothing that can prevent the gases from escaping at the sides of the projectile. And
why shooting the case along with the bullet, it would be much better to use the bullet as it is and use a pipe that is just a bit over 9mm, that way you would have a much
better seal between the bullet and the pipe. And the velocity of the projectile would be far to low using "safe" ammounts of propellant simply becase it is to heavy.
Sorry if I'm very pessemistic about this but I really don't see any use for it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Small straight razor?
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mark July 6th, 2002, 02:12 AM

Ive been looking for a smallish straight razor, about 2 1/2" 3" blade. Does anyone know any American websights that sell them? Are they a good knife to carry, or should I
stick with my S&W tanto neck knife for protection? Thanks
MrSamosa July 6th, 2002, 02:16 AM

I like to use eBay...lots of good stuff for cheap...usually. Just make sure to buy new/packaged/unopened stuff. There's a guy on eBay, can't remember his login name, he's
selling your straight razors, KA-BAR knives, Rapiers, Shamshir Scimitars, Battle Axes, War Hammers, Grapplens, Ninja Equipment, etc.
Machiavelli July 6th, 2002, 08:09 AM

I think you'd better stick to your tanto. Razors can make a real mess out of someones face but they are rarely lethal.
So if you pull out your razor you'll either scare them away (which most other knives would have done, too) or you'll bloody them up a bit and make them more willing to wipe
you out.
With a tanto or a dagger you can stab vital areas and then it's game over. And at least my Applegate-Fairbairn folder from Gerber is sharp enough for shaving :)
Eliteforum July 6th, 2002, 09:11 AM

Not really a razor, but something I've made time and time again for friends whom live in area's where you need a knife.
It's a simple design. Two stanly knife blades with a penny in between the two blades, then just bolted/screwed to a wooden "handle".
The point of having the penny in between the two blades is, in the hospital the doc's can't stitch the gash closed, they have to use some other method. [I never really paid
much attention to that aspect]
Here's a picture: <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/2pknife.gif" alt=" - " />
mongo blongo July 6th, 2002, 01:45 PM

Yes, that is used by a lot of people in my area but they put a match stick in between the blades and put them in between their fingers. It's true that the doctor can't stitch the
gash closed. Very nasty! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
[ July 06, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]

Not entirely true - they can rebuild a whole face if they want. The fact is that you'll have a stitched up face, but a huge scar afterwards.
jelly July 9th, 2002, 10:12 AM

if you don't want to use a claw [the EMERSON lagriffe, the CRKT bear claw and
the MOD (Masters Of Defense) lady hawk (a springer) are the best] take a look
at the SPYDERCO SpyderCard.
this incredible folder is razor-sharp, has the form and size of a credit card
and fits in any purse, wallet or pocket.
<a href="http://store5.yimg.com/I/bestknives_1697_12006277" target="_blank">http://store5.yimg.com/I/bestknives_1697_12006277</a>
<a href="http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/rigidstainless.htm" target="_blank">http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/rigidstainless.htm</a>
[ July 09, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: jelly ]
jelly July 9th, 2002, 10:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And at least my Applegate-
Fairbairn folder from Gerber is sharp enough for shaving<hr /></blockquote>it's good to have both of them, the
folder for shaving and the Applegate-Fairbairn boot knife
from boker for fighting (stabbing) :D
[ July 09, 2002, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: jelly ]

They sell those on SpyTech as well. <a href="http://www.spytech-uk.com/" target="_blank">Spy Tech</a> Some things are cheap, and somethings are way overpriced,
strange site, but some good stuff in stock.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Arming yourself via Radio Shack?
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View Full Version : Arming yourself via Radio Shack?
Nico July 8th, 2002, 03:57 AM

Here's a brain storming exercise ...
You have to equip yourself for self-defense and/or -offense by using only what is available at the local Radio Shack. Let's say you have like $50 to spend, but no lab or anything to work at, so everything would have
to be from scratch.
Myself, I'd probably just have to buy a megaphone or something and use it as a club, but I'm sure you folks will be much more creative. :)
PYRO500 July 8th, 2002, 05:18 AM

I could think of better places to buy things with 50$ than radiao shack of course you could get high power flashlights, and clubbing instruments ( a waste of money and cheap plastic). If I were desprate and needed
some tools of the trade badly then I'd take that 50$ and go nextdoors in the mall to sears and buy a pair of bolt cutters and steal something more worth while like stealing a gun at one of those shitty ungarded
fleamarkets. with a gun a clip of ammo and some wits along with luck that most seem to push too far you could concevably build yourself back up from the slums also you could spen that 50$ at a secondhand store
and get some clean clothes and get yourself a real job and from there on your pretty much set.
Jhonbus July 8th, 2002, 08:13 AM

My guess is that $50 would be plenty to build some sort of taser. An ergonomic shaped one like the commercial ones would be difficult, so building it into a long plastic pole would be the best bet. AFAIK, some
police forces use just such a device - it looks like the usual "nightstick" but has two prongs on the end for the discharge.
J July 8th, 2002, 02:08 PM

Or you could go into all the camera shops in town and ask for used disposable cameras. Take out the flash units, modify them by wiring several caps in parralel, add probes and a case, and you have a potentially
lethal electric shock weapon. All for absolutely nothing, including free batteries :) But if you're prepared to be lethal, I'd personally just buy a knife.

I think the baton like tazer is most likely a cattle-prod.
pyromaniac_guy July 8th, 2002, 04:21 PM

J,
I dont know about other vendors, but at least for kodak, they require photo shops to return the disposable cameras back to them. they arent really ment to be disposable, just cheap enough that you dont worry if
you loose one... The OEM's try to recylce them things as much as possible. HOWEVER, there really isnt a need to get alot of them together, just get one, all you need is one charging circuit. Add a few extra
electrolytic caps from radioshack and thats all you need. Only problem with such a device however is that most likely you will need direct skin contact for it to work, as it doesnt take alot to insulat a few hundred
volts. I dont know if these things use series injection triggering, or if there is an extrenal trigger wire on the flashlamp. (or is triggering is uesd at all, however I assume it is) if you could find a charger with series
injection triggering this would be best, so that you would get a nice higher voltage spike to start conduction in cases where the target provides an unsuitably high resistance. (no pun intended)
dragon July 8th, 2002, 05:19 PM

This is a tad off topic, but dose anyone know of a way to wind a pulse transformer. As used for the output of a stun gun.
I.e. most are wound and potted in a vacuum for insulation. I did have a file for one. Wound buy dipping it in wax after each winding.
i.e. any way to improvised a way to pot it under a vacuum at home.

it's a little less convinient than a solid potting, but you could always build the transformer in an acrylic container and then pot under liquid, such as mineral oil. Then seal up the acrylic (so long as this isnt for a high
duty cycle aplication where you will be generating heat)

Yep oil sounds a good idear, I could pot them in in oil in a small potting box and seal it with epoxy. It wont be under a high duty cycle as its for a stun gun.
failling that. I thort of nipping over to france, one day picking up some duty free and a load of stunguns. then stiping them dumping the cases and posting the pcbs and pulse transformers in different pakages to my
self in the uk.
im sure they would clear customs then.
PYRO500 July 8th, 2002, 10:22 PM

Hand held stun guns in general aren't a whole lot more efective than a blade. as far as radio shack goes most of the electronics stuff I really want they don't carry anymore they now sell alot of hi-teck shit like cell
phones but when you need a special mosfet transistor, no you have to order it to your house. also they do not carry the types of caps you need to charge witha disposable camera flash those aren't really avalable at
many places. as far as making a stun gun from scratch sure it's possible but considering you need to have a case a circuit schematic (or knowledge of electronics, enough to make your circuit from scratch) and a
few select parts that you won't find at radio shack and you'll never build anything that can meet commercial grade beacuse all your likely to do from radio shack is build a little shocker device that will make an
enemy laugh.

true but i can wind the first sep up transformer on a core kit and you can get hv cap from rs in the uk easy. you can often find hv caps in old tv`s and monitors too.
but i must admit not much down tandys(radio shack in the uk) now as theye stoped stoking many parts here too.
making te efective is more to do with get the pulse right and not the votage.
Nico July 9th, 2002, 02:00 AM

True, there are a lot of places with more 'bang for your buck' than Radio Shack. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing.
PYRO500, I like your Sears idea. Sort of like laddering up when buying a home. :)
J July 9th, 2002, 02:40 PM

Different shops have different policies on recycling. My local one just throws them away, I've got them to save the cameras for me :-) Current new price on a 120uF 330V cap is about 1.50, so you're saving a lot of
cash when building up a medium sized bank (as I'm currently doing).
On this note, I've just modified a flash unit to make an effective blasting box, using a thyristor to switch the high current. This will reliably make thin copper wire explode, full details and video will be up soon.
Yes, the flash units have a trigger transformer, which pulses at a few KV to ionize the gas in the flash tube. But if you used sharp electrodes this isn't necessary.
Dragon, check out my website for info on winding a pulse transformer, and full details (minus the case) for a homemade stungun. Vacuum potting isn't required if you're careful, and the voltage is kept to 50kv or
so. I used silicone sealant for mine. Oil should be better, but very messy. The containment vessel will add size to your coil too.
xoo1246 July 9th, 2002, 04:21 PM

I have a cirucit from a flash-unit, it operates at around 300 volts and is good enough to make thin iron strands explode with a sharp crack. The cables I use aren't exactly isulated to take 300 volts so I keep
chocking myself. One gets a little bit stiff in the arms. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
xyz July 19th, 2002, 07:40 AM

You have to get quite a lot of caps on a camera flash charger circuit to get any decent shock out of it (unless you use pulse caps or very large caps). I have been shocked with 5 of the standard 330volt 120uf caps in
parallel and it burned two small marks into my hand but other than making me drop the caps and hurting like @#$% for less than a second it was no big deal. I would use at least 10 flash caps and connect them in
series (wiring caps in series increases voltage, wiring them in parallel increases capacitance, and a combination of the two can be made to get some of both increased)
PYRO500 July 19th, 2002, 10:47 AM

while 330-350V may not hurt excruciatingly bad at a glancing touch, if you get stuck on one of those little caps you will have some pain on your hands. more capacitance the more energy the device can put out. the
main problem with these little caps is the low voltage causes the skin resistance to block the fairly large amount of energy (for energy absorbed into the body 30J is usually lethal) in these caps (anywhere from 2J
to 10J depending on the size of the flash) I think the easyest way to overcome skin resistance is to use sharp needle probes on the end, that will really hurt I can gurante.
[ July 20, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Jumala July 19th, 2002, 11:30 PM

Hallo xyz,
be careful with those capacitors. It is said that currents higher than 30 mA through your body crossing your hard can be lethal.
I think you have felt that the shock had several ampere but only from one finger to another. (your luck)If it had passed the hard you would need some subterran furniture.
The skin resistance is not the biggest problem for the 350 V but some cloth can be.
But pyro500 is right, using needle electrodes gives a pain like hell at 350V.
Another problem is that a weapon buildt in that way gives only one shock. Then the cap must be reloaded for the next.
xyz July 19th, 2002, 11:57 PM

Sure, 30mA can kill if the electodes are stuck either side of your heart inside your chest but it takes a lot more than that to kill someone usually. Pyro, the current from 5 of them in parallel burns tiny cauterized
holes through the skin instantaneously and overcomes skin resistance. I have emptied the entire charge from a single one deliberately into my hand (took about 3 seconds) which hurt a lot and gave me pins and
needles in my hand for 30 seconds afterward but had no other effects. I also know someone else who deliberately put a finger from each hand on the terminal of a camera flash cap (current passes through both
arms, chest, and heart) and said it hurt more than normal but no other effect. Camera flash caps are no danger to people as I know many people from our school who have shocked themselves or others on the
face, neck, ears, etc. You have to remember that the only parts of the body which are greatly effected by electricity are the heart and brain and that a shock from a cap is delivered only on the skin and flesh
between the terminals (usually about 1cm apart).
Edit: Jumala, a capacitor weapon can charge quickly with a good charger and battery, my 3 volt charger has a 3.5 volt 8 amp NiCd battery that I got out of a cordless electric toothbrush and this charger can charge
a standard photo flash cap in about 1-2 seconds. A 6 volt charger( from the flash attachments that you put on cameras) and a 6 volt lantern battery would make a good one but I have yet to get hold of a 6 volt
charger.
[ July 19, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]
PYRO500 July 20th, 2002, 12:22 AM

all capacitors that store a charge can be lethal! geting in the habit of touching them is like playing russian roulette, if you want to do anything besides digital electronics get in the habit of NEVER touching any
capacitor's terminals.
xyz July 20th, 2002, 12:37 AM

I'm not talking big caps here Pyro, I would never touch anything larger than a 330v 120uf photo flash cap and even then I know what they feel like know and probably won't do it again :) . I did all this stuff several
months ago and haven't touched a cap since. Also, I'm not the one who put a finger from each hand on one and If I was going to touch any cap at all I would make sure that it was a 330v 120uf photo flash or smaller
and that I was only shocking a hand or a finger. I have only ever put a cap on a finger or a hand and nowhere else and I am not trying to encourage people to go and start touching charged capacitors, just saying that
you need 5-10 or so photo flash caps for any kind of shocker if you want good results.
Edit: I would also like to add that I am definitely NOT in the habit of touching cap terminals no matter what size the cap is (I would have thought that the fact I own a coke can sized cap for my coil driver and I am
still alive means that I have obviously not tried touching it). I avoid the terminals when doing electronic work. The only reason that I shocked myself deliberately a few times was to see what worked best for a
shocker and what they felt like (rest assured, I had shocked someone else before I tryed it on myself).
PYRO500 July 20th, 2002, 01:41 AM

It is never a good idea to touch any capacitor especially any over half a joule, anything more than a quartar joule is not gonna feel good if it can overcome skin resistance. I don't think everyone that meses with
capacitors truly realizes the dangers involved in them. Capacitors are usually much more dangerous than direct current beacuse of the current that can run through you in the short time. anything over 50-75 volts
has the power to easily overcome skin resistance and either burn or kill you. in the case with capacitors the high currents discharging through your skin is sometimes possible to explode flesh and amputate limbs
now this is at high power but smaller caps can do so at a smaller scale. I have my 2 capacitor 2,000J electrolytic bank and I can tell you if your fingers touched the electrodes they'd probobly be missing some flesh
and look like they had a firecracker go off in them.
I think I should say that any touch to any power capacitor (not digital circuit ones) should be considered a severe risk of injury.
xyz July 20th, 2002, 01:47 AM

That's why I don't do it anymore :) , other people age 14 like me usually do far more dangerous things than touch caps, like some idiot who found a detonator at a quarry and stuck a bit of burning paper in the fuse
hole to see what would happen (true story, honest!)
Edit: Also, is there much advantage to pulse caps as opposed to electrolytics for shockers? If yes then are the homemade kind any good? (the oil filled ones with aluminium sheet or foil for the plates and
polyethylene as a dielectric)
[ July 20, 2002, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]
PYRO500 July 20th, 2002, 03:21 AM

Yes, pulse caps generally discharge alot faster than electrolytics, it is due to a number of things i'm not gonna get into here. Those home made tesla coil capacitors usually have small energy density for their size
due to manufacturing problems. in the pulse capacitor manufacturing plants they have rolls of special dielectric film made especially for precision thinkness and is rolled very flat in nearly sterile enviroments with
metal foil. there are really no ways around buying large energy storage capacitors. any capacitor you'll make will be at best unpredictable and not very dense in it's energy storage, let alone the fact that the ESR
will be alot higher meaning slower pulse.
For shocker applications electrolytic capacitors will usually work fine. in fact photoflash capacitors are precise electrolytic capacitors and they work well.
As far as types of electrolytics go there are 3 main grades of electrolytic capacitors. The types are computer grade, inverter grade, and pulse rated capacitors.
The computer grade should do fine for your shocker applications but beware they are not designed for use where they will be rapidly shorted and will suffer reduced lives if they are although some can last a fair
number of discharges I guess it's up to you how long you want your caps to last.
I think that you should be able to find or order either photoflash capacitors or electrolythic ones that would be sutible for a shock wand. it you hooked several in paralell you could increase the voltage untill a fair
amount of current would flow through the skin (more painful).
As for chargers you will probobly learn quickly that the camera flash inverters are slow even when pumped with alot more voltage and curent. I recomend an oscilator circuit that is more powerful than the
camera's circuit and will drive a transformer at a high enough voltage to charge your caps. Alternatively you coulf build a voltage multiplyer out of capacitors and diodes for higher voltage apps where you can't find
a small enough transformer. Voltage multipliers are kind of simple to build and when constructed properly can be very reliable and take in ac and conveniently output dc perfect for charging capacitors.
pyromaniac_guy July 20th, 2002, 04:25 AM

I have to most strenuously agree with pyro500 here. one should never get into the habit of touching charged caps. your 330v at 120uf contains 6.5j of energy at full charge. 3j discharged acrost your chest can cause
arrythmia of the heart. granted a strong, healthy person can do this more safely than a 80 year old geriatric without their nitro pills, it is none the less foolish to unnecisarily put one's self at risk....
xyz July 20th, 2002, 04:38 AM

Ok, though the reason I like using camera chargers is that they stop charging when the cap is full and don't charge the cap till it heats up and ruptures from the pressure. I have measured that camera flash cap
chargers put out about 300v so my cascade will have to have 6 stages to get 3v to around 200v and a 7th stage will make it 400v right? They double the voltage with each stage don't they? But I can't add 6.5
stages to get 300v, do I need to do anything special or will it end up about 300v anyway from resistance and the like?
Edit: Pyromaniac_guy, I have already explained that I DON'T have a habit of touching them and I did it on my hand and not across my chest, please read the whole topic before you post
[ July 20, 2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]
PYRO500 July 20th, 2002, 09:53 AM

no, sorry it dosen't quite work like that when you have multiple stages you multiply the voltage that you start with by the number of stages, for example I have 120V in, I put it through a 5 stage multiplier and I get
600V now charging your capacitors with a higher voltage than their max voltage is ok, but you do need to watch the voltage and switch it off before it covercharges. Also you have to be sure that it won't charge too
fast either. what you could do is build an oscilator circuit like this one <a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/untitled.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/untitled.jpg</a>
(copy and paste link into browser)
the part that's the oscilator is the part before the transformer(ignore the rest), the output of the transformer is what drives the voltage multiplier, when using a voltage multiplier in this case you would get the
highest step up transformer you could find and then add that voltage multiplier directly to the output of the transformer (ignore the diode and the capacitors after the transformer there for something else and won't
work with a voltage multiplier)
now assuming you got 100V out of the transformer (likely the circuit would give around 300V max) you would then add the appropriate amount of stages in your voltage multiplier to get 300V, in this case that'd be
3 stages. just a note here but the trnasformers won't always step up the voltage porportionally to their turns beacuse of the effect pulsing has on them, kep that in mind when looking at this circuit.
[ July 20, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

xyz...
I DID read the whole post, and you said you deliberatly shocked yourself with more than 10 times the energy required to stop the heart, should you have fucked up in some way, and conducted hand to hand. My
post was not ment to admonish you for doing this, you were warned once by someone else, if you hurt yourself doing anything similar, you win yourself a darwin award. The reason for my post was to warn (again)
any other 14 yr old kids out there like yourself that what you did was quite foolish.
xyz July 20th, 2002, 08:17 PM

Obviously you didn't read it properly then. I said it was NOT me who shocked themself from arm to arm and that I did NOT deliberately shock myself with the 5 caps in parallel. It takes 30J to stop the heart and a
photo flash cap is between 2J to 7J.
Pyro500, your page is down (damn geoshitties), it says that the owner needs to go to their help page. I have a small 240v to 9v step down transformer which I can use backwards (probably get a lot lower than
240v though) and then make a multiplier to get whatever power comes out of the transformer to around 300v.
PYRO500 July 20th, 2002, 10:29 PM

My geocities page is not down, I said next to the link that you needed to cut and paste the link into your browser or it won't work. as for 30J being lethal, that's kink=d of like the LD50 on electric shocks during
most circumstances, getting zapped by anything is a bad idea and people have been killed by alot less than 30J.
Anything that shocks you is potentially very dangerous and there is not really any way of determining how much shock will kill you untill all the circumstances are at their worst and not shocking youself from arm
to arm is not a safe way of not shocking your heart.
[ July 20, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
xyz July 21st, 2002, 06:25 AM

Yeah, I've kind of got the picture now, don't zap yourself.
Sorry about forgetting to cut and paste with geocities. What rate does that oscillator pulse things at?
PYRO500 July 21st, 2002, 05:14 PM

That oscillator will work at difrent frequency's depending on the resistance in the circuit. That't the reason for the whine in camera flashes. The frequency the transformer is running at gets lower and lower untill
the capacitors are charged and the circuit can't produce enough voltage to charge them any more.
[ July 21, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
xyz July 22nd, 2002, 05:11 AM

By "the resistance in the circuit", do you mean how charged the caps are or what the value of the resistor is?
If I was not using it to charge caps, how high would the frequency be and what could I do to make it higher?
PYRO500 July 22nd, 2002, 05:52 AM

by the resistance in the circuit I mean everything after the transformer, when the capacitors charge (in normal operation as a flash) the resistance rises as the capacitor(s) charge. it is hard to say how fast it
would oscilate with a voltage miltiplier but it would charge up like a capacitor and give you DC from AC but at a high voltage.
xyz July 23rd, 2002, 06:31 AM

If I used a 9 volt battery and some transistors that are designed for 9 volts, and then replaced the transformer with a relay, how many times a second would this circuit switch the relay?
PYRO500 July 23rd, 2002, 06:40 AM

you can't replace the transformer with a relay, that would not do anything worthwile, it would cause your voltage to stay the same as the input of the buzzing relay (why?) I can't really say the frequency you have
to find out what it is using your components.
xyz July 24th, 2002, 04:59 AM

The purpose I was going to use it for was pulsing the power in a second circuit.
PYRO500 July 24th, 2002, 05:35 AM

There are beter ways of pulsing a relay, or even better a transistor. for a relay an IC 555 timer would do fine.
Boob Raider August 23rd, 2002, 09:53 PM

Fellow Zappers. U can get about 1kV or even more from (I have tried upto 1kV) photoflash chargers by connecting the outputs in series <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . I use the set up
to operate a cold cathode florescent tube salvaged from a Photocopier. Speaking of photocopiers ... they have drum charging circuits (3"X1.5"X.75") capable of generating upto 12kV DC @ about 200 uA. I have one
by TDK, it generates 7kV @ 600uA (24 VDC input) which I used for my table top N2 Laser and making O3. IF one can get there hands on enough photoflash caps that the voltage ratings would add upto 7kV with a
safety margin of atleast 0.5kV then that would make one hell of a Pulsed Laser PSU (*wack*) I mean Shocker. :D
Dont try making HV caps at home with Al foil and any Dielectric and transformer oil. It aint worth it. Its like "fishing in a piss pond" (By Me). Success is very rare as far as that goes and those who do have to go
through the bitching phase as the caps spray hot oil, smoke the garage, and waste a lot of money, effort and time :mad: . Air bubbles r to be blamed. So IF u r a very patient person and can work each and every air
bubble out ... go for it, otherwise stick to reletavely low V caps in series. Actually e-Bay is a good place to fish for caps. I got a lot of em from there. 40kV Ceramite Doorknob caps etc. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I had lots to say on this topic .... but I forgot. Ask me or I'll put it up when I get reminded by a post.
PYRO500 August 23rd, 2002, 11:14 PM

The problem with a bunch of caps in series is that the ESR is multiplied among them making the pulse that you normally had alot longer with less peak current.
As far as having a ton of photoflash capacitors goes, it's only worth it for small projects that don't require a very fast high current pulse.
For example I just bought a pulse cap that I have yet to calculate the esr for but typicly speaking thse capacitors are made to have low esr's for pulse duty. I am going to use this capacitor for a few experimental
electronic weapons including a disk launcher that will launch an ancient 14 inch hard drive platter. I also am designing a plasma armature rail gun witch will possibly run with two more of these suckers if I can get
250$ anytime soon.
The capacitor is 4,200V and 298 UF witch is 2628J and considering 30 is considered lethal, this sucker will explode flesh like a firecracker in a tomatoe. Think back to NBK's idea of a super tazer that would do that,
except this sucker is very huge and is sitting in an office chair in the pics and probobly weighs over 90 pounds. you have to cut and paste thes pics into your browser
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap1.jpg</a>
xyz September 1st, 2002, 02:42 AM

Does anyone have a circuit diagram for a good circuit to pulse a relay with? There is one on powerlabs which turns a relay on and off 3000 times a second, I emailed Sam Barros asking for the diagram but did not
get a reply.
J September 1st, 2002, 06:21 AM

You ought to be able to work out how to make a relay pulse itself! If you want a faster pulse rate than it can manage this way, you might as well use an SCR based circuit.
xyz September 1st, 2002, 09:17 AM

I am rather annoyed at myself for overlooking the obvious like that :mad: , It never occured to me that you could make a relay pulse itself but now that you say it I can see exactly how it would work, thanks.
kanbayat September 21st, 2002, 11:50 PM

ok..after reading all youre posts..I wonder if anyone has come up with a definitive wepon that can be made at radio shack with 50 bucks?
I know very little about electrical shit..so spill it guys.
personally if I had the same 50 bucks..i'd go to walmart..and no one would stop me..lol..but to the rest of us who know hardly any thing about what radio shack has to offer..what is the consensus of opinion here?
..what type of lethal wepon can be made for self defense using 50 bucks at radio shack?..nico and I want to knoww
peace ppl

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > self defence lighter
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View Full Version : self defence lighter
Purple Fire July 9th, 2002, 06:39 AM

I have uploaded 2 pics named "self defence lighter", and "self defence lighter fuel" to the FTP. They are part of a project I am w orking on in light of the "w hat can I do to stop
my ass getting kicked in a dark alley" posts. Its small: fits in a the palm of your hand, light: 49.84g when empty (I have new scales and I'll be damned if I'm not gonna flaunt
it), cheap to run: $5 for a can of fuel that would last about 20 fillings, and would scare the living shit outa sum little punk, w hile doing no permnent damage (save from a bit of
singed facial hair). I am still w orking on building an ignitor system and have yet to neaten it all up ie. remove the jagged bits of wire etc. but i thought I'd chuck it on the ftp to
get some feedback. Basically, you point and pull the "trigger", and a get a jet of flame about 1.5m long, when the trigger is released, you get a fireball about 0.5m square (not
intentional, but I'm not complaining). You can get about 5 short bursts from one tank, more that enough to startle someone enough for you to turn and run your little ass off.
The idea was to scare them and provide a chance for escape, rather than hurt them, but I think a full tank full to the face would probably hurt like a bitch all the same. I w as
impressed by what it did in daylight, and have yet to see what it will look like at night :D
Its basically made from a small BB gun CO2 cannister and the useful bits from a disposable lighter: the needle valve and the "trigger" thingy. The lighter was carved up and the
regulator removed from the valve. The CO2 cannister then had the hole in the top drilled out to fit the needle valve. The trigger thingy was re-attatched to the valve, minus
loads of unimportant stuff like the flint mechanism etc. A small "gaskett" was made from plumbers thread tape and helps to keep the join betw een the rough cannister edge
and the valve gas-tight. 2 ajustable matal hose clips were linked together and tightened round the end of the cannister till they wouldnt slip. Then stainless stell wire w as used
to pull the valve assembly dow n onto the cannister and twisted w ith pliers till it w as firmly squashed against the gaskett.
Nice and simple at the moment, but as I said I have yet to build a relyable ignitor and make it a little more ergonomic. At the moment its also a bit of a bitch to fill, a process
involving levering with screwdrivers, bracing aginst the floor etc. When I have ploished up the design and made some improvements like widening the valve and adding a proper
trigger I w ill probably upload another pic.
Well there you go, that w as my weekends contribution. Any feedback would be great, has anyone made something similar before? Any ideas for further improvements would be
apreciated. (This has all been repeated in a text file that accompanies the pictures on the FTP)
edit:
the pics and the text file have all gone into the "Uploads" folder as thats all I can get to at the moment (I have a passw ord but the internet hates me) :(
they are:
self defence lighter.jpg
self defence lighter fuel.jpg
self defence lighter.doc
[ July 09, 2002, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Purple Fire ]

It'd be a nice idea if you told us what the picture name WAS and WHERE they were.
However, sounds simplistic enough.
mark July 9th, 2002, 02:24 PM

Could some one w ho knows how to use the FTP(I dont) please post the picture in this thread?
kingspaz July 9th, 2002, 07:00 PM

looks a pretty decent idea. well done...i shrunk (sp?!) the pictures down lots because they where unnecessarily huge.
<img src="http://ww w.boomspeed.com/kingspaz/lighter2.JPG" alt= " - " /> <img src="http://w ww.boomspeed.com/kingspaz/fuel2.JPG" alt=" - " />
[ July 09, 2002, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Purple Fire July 9th, 2002, 07:43 PM

Shit, they were huge w ernt they! Sorry, thats just how my scanner scanned them, I dont have a digital camera :( I thought I'd just clarify, those really mankey wires down the
sides, are infact incredibly tight, its just they are seriously full of twists from being constantly re-hashed till I got the thing to work. Ran out of light fuel today so Im not sure
how long till I can get back to the modifications. Just been sitting here and sketching up various ideas. So far, Im planning on destroying another disposably lighter to keep a
pilot flame infront of the nozzle, and trying to work out a better way of holding the top (valve assembly) onto the cannister cos damn those wires are sharp!!!
edit:
I'm also tossing around the idea of making it more like a "real" flamethrower, and using the butane to propel a chamber of liquid fuel. Napalm in the face could do some
SERIOUS damage :D but then again, thats defeating the purpose of making it more or less harmless. Maybe an attatchment so you could either carry it as a napalm launcher
OR has a harmless scaring people away device? One that you could switch to quickly if the guy does decide to chase you? Hmmm, I think more sketching is called for!
[ July 09, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Purple Fire ]
Zero July 9th, 2002, 07:44 PM

You sir, think too much. Consider the following:
A standard adjustable Bic or nearest clone is drained of its fuel and dismantled. First remove that useless metal thing surrounding the nozzle, then the flint w heel, flint, and
spring. Pry the button off (it's usually held onto the nozzle/valve w ith two little finger type things), then remove the adjusting ring. Take a small pair of pliers (I use hemostats)
and unscrew the valve assembly. The nozzle/valve itself is mounted in a white plug type thing that the adjusting ring engages, and the whole shebang will easily unscrew. If
you haven't vented the lighter yet it w ill do so in your face at this point.
Whack the lighter against something until the regulator (white thing w ith a little tiny metal disk on it) and the siphon tube pop out. Discard them. screw the nozzle assembly
back on all the way (there will be no restance now that the regulator is gone), and affix the button.
You can refil this contraption by holding the button down and filling it right through the nozzle. Without the regulator in place the thing w ill fill with liquid fuel from the can in a
matter of seconds.
Now light another lighter, aim your modified one at the flame, and tap the button.
Woosh.
No CO2 carts, homemade seals, or jury rigging to leak in your pocket.

Looks like a plain old Bic, too, unless you inspect it closely.

But zero, w heres the style? the class? Yeah, supose that w ould do the job, but...the CO2 cannister has a much greater capacity that the lighter = more fire to scare him with.
There is the possibility of upgrading it to an all-metal assembly if I can find a small enough valve, making it durable enough to take a moderate beating, and you could probably
hit him with it :D . And as in the post above, I think it would be MUCH easier to make this into a liquid fuel one, with the butane as a propellant only. Depends how far you
want to develop it I supose, I personally think that 90% the fun is in hashing up something more complicated, to do a simpler job :p
edit:
and the CO2 cannister has the potentioal to hold a more compressed fuel, ie more pressure, more fuel in the same space etc.
[ July 09, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Purple Fire ]
Tyler_Durden July 9th, 2002, 08:28 PM

zero... that's so simple it's almost kewl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" />
i w ill try it as soon as i can pick up a few bic's to play with
the only thing i don't like is having to hold the non-modified lighter in a manner that could easily burn you. a grill lighter would be perfect for this.
xoo1246 July 10th, 2002, 07:14 AM
I remember some pictures from a protest in some asian country w here a guy had a huge propane tank w ich he had opened and ignited the stream of fuel. You should see the
faces of those polices, like 10 of them against this guy. They looked scared.
Purple Fire July 10th, 2002, 09:03 AM

I was thinking, to keep it simple, that if I use simple w ire clamps to hold the valve against the thread tape, then I could fill it 3/4 with petrol, then clamp the valve on and fill the
rest w ith the butane. As all its doing at the moment is pumping the liquid butane out, it might as well throw some petrol out instead! Much cheaper, and probably more
effective. Hve more butane now, but the valve died instead :( it was an old lighter, and it had some tough trialing. I think the constant freezing from the butane, then rapid
heating w ith the flame did for it. Now I have to go and buy more lighters (a nice big stack :D ) before the experimenting can continue. Does anyone know a good source of the
wire clamp things? like the ones they use on guitar cases and, ummm, cant think of any more :( Wait, got it! Airtight coffee container has just w hat I need :D think im off to
buy a few of them while I'm at it (mmmmmm, coffee). I think the plastic "trigger" may need to be replaced with a bit of metal, I really dont think lighter plastic is up to this
sort of thing...
FragmentedSanity July 10th, 2002, 10:08 AM

Lo all :)
First a quick idea - but whats stopping you simply hooking up a piezo ignighter from a cheap lighter to the trigger?
It w orks on normal lighters - so it should work.
Those cheap BBQ lighters (refillable butane lighters with a long pipe the flame comes out) have a few interesting bits in them that may be of use. For one you could dismantle it
and use the whole thing complete as an ignition source.
you can use the piezo ignighter as described - the best thing is that the lighter inside looks like a normal bic - and w orks the same, except that the internals are easier to get to,
but the advantage is that thay have a valve for refilling built into the bottom of the lighter.
It might be possible to put said valve in the bottom of the CO2 canister making filling much simpler.
but for $2 id suggest you grab one and pull it to bits and see if you get inspired.
Have you tried any different fuels?
engine strting fluid (25% ether) could be interesting and Im sure you could think of others (WD-40 and such like)
I think you would find that if you used say WD-40 you w ould get more flame, or more distance from the flame - but there may not be enough pressure to pump it out - so
possibly mixing it w ith butane would add the pressure required.
But your concept is a very nice idea.
To turn it into a more serious weapon you could simply use a bigger CO2 cartridge (like the ones you get in a Soda Stream) these are about 13-14 inches long from memory
and a fairly solid construction. Not only w ould it hold more fuel but w ould also act as a servicable club if they werent detered (much like a big mag light). While this probably isnt
practicle for self defence purposes its always fun to scale things up.
**just came to mind** build on of these and put it in the bottom of maglight (sacrifice a couple of batteries for the space) Not only do you get the advantages of the torch as a
weapon, which have been discussed in detail elsw here - but you have a neat flamethrow er as w ell. Blind the mugger - flame the mugger - beat the mugger senseless. Or
whatever you choose :p But I think that would be a fairly good self defence w eapon that would look inconspicuous - if you did a neat job of it even if a cop looked at it they
probably wouldnt notice anything. Thats a real consideration here in Australia given our laws about carrying a weapon. In that sence it w ould beat a knife hands down - as you
would have to get caught using it, rather than falling victim to a random search and them turning up a knife (go to jail go directly to jail do not pass go do not collect $200)
whereas a torch is just a torch.
OH one more thing - to get the butane into the tank easier - cool the tank and warm the can thats filling it.
Later
FS
Spudgunner July 10th, 2002, 03:43 PM

That is a good idea! In a 4 D cell maglite, you could use 3 D cells (make sure the bottom one can still contact the bare metal on the cap somehow) and a 3 D cell bulb. You still
have a working flashlight, sure, it is only as bright as a 3 D cell instead of a 4 D cell, but you can modify it now too! You could easily drill a hole in the endcap and put stuff in
there, but I don't know that you could fit it in the space of 1 D cell. So, you only put 2 in there, put in a 2 cell bulb, and you now have LOTS of room for all your crap. You even
have enough room for the circuit off of a small stungun (or home built transformer/stepup thing) that would VERY reliably ignite your stuff (just like piezo but w ith an inch or
more spark).
A question though, how w ould you be able to press the button or whatever for the gas to come out if it were on the inside of the flashlight/torch? I cannot think of any ideas
right now, but you can be sure I am gonna try. I really like this idea.
Spud

Hmmm, flamethrower maglight eh...I love it!!! Blind them, toast them, beat them and leave them for dead :D While we're listing fuels, which of these are likely to attack the
plastic parts of the valve? the o-rings etc. I have a feeling that petrol is going to fuck up the valve, w ould ether? Im trying it out this afternoon with meths and some kero. The
clips from the coffee container are PERFECT! I'll scan a pic to show you w hat I'm talking about. Basically, you can now just take the top off, fill it w ith liquid, clip the top back
on, pressurise and go, all in about 2-3 minutes. It is soooo much faster than twisting those bloody bits of wire!!!
randomquestion July 10th, 2002, 11:36 PM

I'm loving this idea. For the "fuel release trigger", I'm guessing all you'll need to do is extend the plastic piece that is already on top, by melting on some additional plastic. Then
slide that through a hole cut in the side of the flashlight. Please post pictures of your progress.

Here is the clip that w ill hopefully enable me to use liquid fuel. I am waiting till I can get another one before I fit them on. As a consequence of severe boredom, there will be a
website with some of my progress on it, I'm not sure how long I w ill keep updating it, w e shall see...
I have failed to get the image to link to here, so here is the site I'm writing up my progress on:
<a href="http://www .geocities.com/purple_fire_51/self_defence_lighter.html" target="_blank">ww w.geocities.com/purple_fire_51/self_defence_lighter.html</a>
You may need to copy and paste, I'm not sure.
xyz July 18th, 2002, 10:46 PM

Purple Fire, Kerosene is simply a heavier grade of petrol (in betw een petrol and diesel if I remember correctly), I would use metho as a fuel like you suggested as that
evaporates and ignites easily but doesn't eat at plastic like petrol does.
Harry July 29th, 2002, 12:32 PM

Purple fire, you might try using one of the many CO2-pow ered gadgets that seemed to proliferate about 3-4 years ago--I think it was Reebok that had a CO2-inflated shoe,
with a handheld tank. Also, I have a CO2 "spritzer" for disk drives that uses a CO2 cartridge. I've seen a bicycle tire repair kit that uses a CO2 cartridge. They all work on the
same mechanism, with trigger, &c.
Harry
Harry August 12th, 2002, 04:28 PM

Alright, I've been scoping the local hardware shops, came up with: 1)much compressed air fittings, including air chucks, have 1/4" pipe threads. 2)An adapter is available to
connect a disposeable propane bottle to 1/4" pipe fittings. 3)screw-in inflation valves are readily available.
Now, let's add 23+ 23+ 23 and get 69.
Drill hole into 12g CO2 cartridge. Tap for valve threads. Install inflation valve; some epxy might be good. Combine air chuck with propane adapter, screw onto propane bottle.
Use to pressurize 12g CO2 cartrige installed in handheld CO2 device. Ignition handled by disposeable piezo lighter element.
This is my current project. I'll post photos ASAP.
Harry
BoB- August 12th, 2002, 08:03 PM

Wouldnt it be a w hole hell of a lot easier to just use a brass or steel nipple to hold the pressurized propane? Then no threading tools would be needed, just a few more dollars
for reduction fittings. I also think that pyrotechnic ignition would be more reliable than piezo-electric.
You know Rat-Shack (Radio Shack) sells butane cartridges the same size as 12gr. CO2 cartridges.
Harry August 13th, 2002, 07:03 PM
I dimly recall the 12g butane cartridges @ RadioCrap. One memory that won't be repressed. However, those would be rather expensive a solution.
We are going for pocket size in this topic, if I'm not mistaken. Using brass/steel nipple a good idea. I considered it, but bypassed due to...crap, I gotta keep better notes on my
thought processes. Perhaps a compressed air blowgun for the valve?
(Speaking of blow guns... <sound of slapping across face> "Back on topic!!!" "Yes sir!")
I managed to obtain, some years ago, a pressure bottle about 1/3 the size of a propane torch bottle. Soon as I can work up an adapter for it, it's next in line for the butane
treatment. BTW, the bottle was pressurized with O2/N2/N2O mix for testing and calibrating medical equipment. Technically pocket-sized.
A bit off topic: Boy Scouts come up w ith the darndest things: met a leader w hose troop pumped a full camp stove tank, then sprayed through the campfire--flamethrower.
Harry
[ August 13, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Harry ]
Boob Raider August 23rd, 2002, 03:25 AM

I don't think u can fit more butane in a cylinder than its volume no matter how much u increase the pressure. Once the butane is liquified it will only compress very, very little.
So the use of CO2 carts. for having more C4H10 because the cart. can take more pressure doesn't seem logical to me. Although the CO2 cart. could contain C3H8 which means
that the fire cloud will be a lot scary as C3H8 will exit with a greater pressure which can be also utilized to propell a liquid fuel conventional push style (squirt) or what I think will
be more suitable (non/less-scaring) is to have another tank w ith the fuel of choice (mine would probably be Naptha) and use propane/butane to atomize the liquid fuel.
If just using gas, standard ignition techniques won't w ork (my experience)as the high exit pressure and lowered temprature doesn't allow piezo spark or flint spark to ignite the
gas. I was thinking ... that maybe a small continious AC arc w ould do the job or a small capacitor (that spark I think would provide sufficient ignition temp.)
But If u make the atomizer design (I am working on it) I think the piezo-electric ignition should work. :cool:
Cricket August 25th, 2002, 01:22 AM

I made that lighter. Badass little gizmo. Just thought I would say be careful and try not to cary it in your pocket! If you hold it upside down then it w ill spray the liquid butane
out, much bigger fireball! I only did once (lack of butane) and it looked like it went close to the floor (about 3 feet). Can't be sure though, I couldn't see through the flame. I am
working on a new one, but it is pretty much just a toy because it is too big to fit in a pocket. But it makes a flame that is large, relatively cheap, and sustainable for a much
longer than a lighter.
Boob Raider August 25th, 2002, 02:41 AM

How r u igniting the gas stream ? Is it something that can be operated w ith one hand and instantaneously or ur using a second lighter ?
kanbayat September 22nd, 2002, 12:14 AM

although this wouldnt qualify as a pocket flame throw er..A few years ago I bought one of those simple metal oil cans w ith the pump trigger underneath..about the size of a juice
can..pretty small..took off the nozzel and made a burner cage that had holes in it to fit over the end of the tube of the spray end..I used light fluid.like charcoal lighter
fluid..filled the can..tipped it a little till the nozzel I had made and a piece of cotton stuffed in it w ere damp..and lit it on fire..everytime I squeezed the trigger on this it shot a
flaming stream of lighter fluid about 20 feet and lit shit on fire at that distance..the cotton never went out until I extinquished it. these oil cans can be bought at any auto parts
store.
It isnt that high tech..but you can keep one in youre car..you never know ..however..it is no small lighter type device..but man..it w ill burn shit up at that distance(20 feet or so)
and if a little motor oil is mixed with the cahrcoal lighter it will stick to the target much better
.
peace ppl

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Yo-yo
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View Full Version : Yo-yo
Harry July 12th, 20 02, 01:1 1 PM

Let m e share m y own IW: the Yo-yo.
I was working a shortie contract in Murderapolis, got off work about 11:30P. Had to walk 6 blocks to my car. Sure, I carried a
Spyderco Endura, but I don't feel like getting that close to a germ . I had been practicing on breaks (at age 26, I ha d m y first
real yo-yo) with m y Duncan Butterfly (that sucker can HURT with those 2 sharp rim s!) I just walked to the car flipping a high-
velocity, tethered weight around. I kno w, I know, a yo-yo is not the weapon of choice, but use wha'cha got, right? Let's see, a
Duncan Butterfly: 1/4 lb. of hard plastic with narrow edges, a 3 foot string, capability for tricks, and
_what_cop_is_gonna_accuse_you_of_ca rrying_an_assau lt_yo-yo_? Most m o d e l s a r e l i k e f l i p p i n g a b a s e b a l l a r o u n d , b u t t h e
butterfly has thos sharp rim s for better impact.
Be safe!
Harry
PS: I know I don't have many posts to m y nam e, but at least I'm n o t a s k i n g a q u e s t i o n ; - P
Madog555 July 12th, 20 02, 01:4 8 PM

originialy, in ancient tim es the yo-yo was a wea p o n

Harry wtf? I can't m ak e ou t a wo r d o f w h a t y ou r b a bbl i ng o n a bo ut ! Ca n s o meo ne c l ea r t hi s up?
mongo blongo July 12th, 20 02, 04:3 6 PM

Madog555- That's correct! I can't rem ember wh o used it. Was it the Vikings?
Harry- I can't m a k e o ut much of it eith er.
W hat's_all_of_this_un der_scrolling?
<sm all>[ July 12, 2002, 03:37 PM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : m o n g o b l o n g o ] < / s m a l l >
Tyler_Durden July 12th, 20 02, 06:0 3 PM

_this_means_there_is_em phasis_on_that_part_
...and i can understand him fine... oh well.
I think I recall the yo-yo being an ancient weapon. I am thinking it was of eastern decent...
As far as *im proving* the yo-yo's attack capabilities, there is little that you can do, because if there is som ething sharp or
poin ty, it still has to come back. :D
You could we ight it, but thats about it. If its really easy to tell by looking at it that weights have been stuffed in it, you can
easily say its so that you can do tricks better.
I a m a form er yo-yo-ist(?) m yself, there is a lo t of nifty stuff you can do... unfortunately, none of the advanced tricks help
m uch in the way of combat. =/
kingspaz July 12th, 20 02, 07:0 9 PM

'In the Philippines, th e yo-yo was a weapon for over 400 hundred years. Their version was large with sharp edges and studs
and attached to thick twenty-foot ropes for flinging at enem ies or prey'
<a href="http://inventors.about.com /library/weekly/aa1 20297.htm" target="_blank">http://inventors.about.com /library/

weekly/aa120297.htm </a>
rikkitikkitavi July 12th, 20 02, 07:3 6 PM

i can assure that the yo-yo wa s not a prefered weapon of the vikings...(m y
great_great_great_great_great_great_etc_grand daddy was one)
they where m ore into heavy battle axe s, archery, swords and other m ore "manly" weapons. sim ply not their style :D However
the principle of the yo-yo was known by the vikings, as a toy.
however , I wouldnt be surprised if the yo-yo has been used as close-up com bat weapon, especially for destraction, like the
ninjas trowing star.
/rick ard
Zero July 12th, 20 02, 09:1 0 PM

Sure you can use a yo-yo for a weapon. Everyone saw Ninja Turtles 2, didn't they?
~Zero the Inestim a b l e
Tyler_Durden July 13th, 20 02, 01:2 7 AM

the philipino version isnt any good for our purposes. the point of carrying a yo-yo as a weapon is not to have a great, effective
weapon, but som ething that d o e s n t ' a p p e a r ' t o b e a w e a p o n .
if nothing else, a forward shot w/ the yo-yo would at least m a k e s o m e o n e f l i n c h f o r a s e c o n d u n t i l t o g i v e y o u a h e a d s t a r t
running away.
E7 July 13th, 20 02, 04:1 6 AM

not to m ention you could swing it above your head once and pop them on the sid e of the head. this m ight give them a hinm t
of whats com eing, but as poin ted out in the self defence thread, if someone comes up to you with intent to m ug you , pulling
out a weighted yo-yo and swinging it above your head would not only confuse the shit out of them , but m ig h t m a k e t h e m
reconsider you as a target

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Commercial Stun Guns
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View Full Version : Commercial Stun Guns
endotherm July 13th, 2002, 01:17 PM

I was thinking about purchasing a 500k volt commercial stun gun. These things are cheap these days, i have found good 400K ^ stun guns for under $30.00 US. I can't find
much information on the w eb about them, and i'm sure you guys know quite a bit. What is there real-life effectivenss?
-SCENARIO
a medium sized tough gangster w alking down the straight, after scoring a 5,000K drug deal, the drug money is in his front right pocket, you move in, shock him on the back of
the neck with a commerical 500k stun gun, and as he stumbles and falls dazed, you can easily just grab the money, and run aw ay with nothig to w orry about becuase he is
going to be fucked for the next few minutes.
Is the stun-gun your w eapon for this? Or is the gangster just going to turn around, rub the back of his neck saying "OUCH", while laughing as he grabs his Beretta 92 from his
hip?
Also, i sort of understand that a stung gun uses high voltage, low amperage oscilatting current. This current supposedly mimics electronic nerve impulses, and replaces them with
this mush, effectively confusing the hell out of your body, and leaving you helpless. Is this stuff true, or does it just shock the living shit out of a person?
xoo1246 July 13th, 2002, 03:14 PM

I read about persons trying to rob a store using a stun gun(don't know what type). The persons trying to rob the store asked about something and when the ow ner turned
around they used a stun gun. He felt pain in his back but wasn't knocked out as the robber w as hoping.
They fled the sceen. As I said, don't know what stun gun they used.
Buy one and try it on yourself. <img border= "0" title= "" alt= "[Wink]" src="w ink.gif" />
From < a href="http://ww w.guns2u.com" target="_blank">http://www .guns2u.com</a>

<blockquote>quote:< hr /> Stun Gun Info
Stun Guns use high voltage and low amperage to temporarily disable an attacker for several minutes.
The stun gun does not rely on pain for results. The energy stored in the gun is transferred into the attacker's muscles, placing a tremendous demand on the muscles. This
demand instantly depletes the attacker's blood sugar by converting it to lactic acid. In short, he is unable to produce energy for his muscles, and his body is unable to function
properly.
The stun gun also interrupts the tiny neurological impulses that control and direct voluntary muscle movement. When the attacker's neuromuscular system is overw helmed and
controlled by the stun gun, he loses his balance. Should the attacker touch you, the current w ill NOT pass to your body!
<hr /> </blockquote> Also, check this one out:
<a href="http://www .guns2u.com/products/stun_guns/bestex_dds.htm" target="_blank">http://www .guns2u.com/products/stun_guns/bestex_dds.htm< /a>
Those cassets could be manufactured by someone with some technical know ledge. And used with and inexpensive model.
[ July 13, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
PYRO500 July 13th, 2002, 10:04 PM

One thing people seem to get wrong about stun guns is that they do NOT create the voltages that they claim to be able to create. IIRC the breakdown voltage of air is 1.1KV
per mm now if you had a 200KV stun gun and insulated the hell out of some leads and tried seeing how far you should be able to seperate them you should get a 91mm spark
witch from what I have seen is total bs, if you could get such high voltages then you would have the ability to create very big sparks. also with the 500KV stun guns you should
be able to get about 454 mm sparks through air, witch I hope you see is hopeless to acheive in such a small package. I believe the 2 stun guns I tested were somewhere
around 30KV by calculating the spark length. Also I don't know quite what the manufactures are trying to sell you when they mention all this "T" wave bullshit and how it kills/
disrupts/halts your nervous system, all these do is cause a bit of pain at the location of it touching you and can cause muscles nearby to contract rapidly. I had my brother try
the professional 200KV stun gun that cost me about 40 bucks on me and it hurt kind of bad but in no way rendered helpless I had it held to me for around 30 seconds. I had a
little stinging in the area and not much of an after effect if you knew what a stun gun felt like before hand the effect is very much diminished. I also got shocked for something
like 25 seconds w ith the cheapo 25 buck panther 200KV stun gun witch hurt a bit less but still was kind of painful but my brother who thought he'd pull a fast one on me gabbed
me and tried to shock me for a good long time got shocked through the battery compartment of the cheap stun gun presumably through the battery's ground. I also got
shocked once for a second or two with an expensive stun gun (muscle man brand) that was something like 120$ and was being sold at security world now I think this one used
tw o 9V batterys and it was the most painful shock from the three of them and it was a very rapid "hot" spark. I experimented with several kinds of batteries w ith the two stun
guns I had and I found that with around 18V the inverter circuit can charge a whole lot faster and deliver a higer frequency spark than they looked alot more ferce than they did
with just one 9V alone. I did not take apart any of the higher class stun guns but I am also assuming they have a bigger pulse capacitor in the primary circut I may have found a
place w here I can get these 1000V capacitors fairly cheap. I am going to see if I can make a decent shock w and from parts I can buy,m something that goes in my standards of
severe pain. I believe another source of energy drain in these cheap devices are the internal spark gap that discharges the capacitor. while the spark gap adds to the simplicity
of the device it causes it to loose a fair amount of energy that could be conserved otherwise. I am in the designing phase of an entirely new breed of a stun gun, the one I am
trying to design will have at least 4 times the capacitance of a conventional stun gun and will have no spark gap. instead I w ill use a small high voltage stud SCR and diode
protection netw ork it will have atleast the same frequency of sparking as conventional stun guns but with alot more power. I will also have the major change of adding possibly
a high rate of discharge NiMh battery designed for hand held radios. With the addition of all that stuff to increase the current and frequency I will look into a higher current more
usable transformer, possibly a small epoxy potted igniton coil core.
McGuyver July 14th, 2002, 02:02 AM

I built a pretty nasty stun gun that put out about 110K volts- it w as measured. It used two 2 magnetos for step-up transformers, the problem w as its size otherwise it was
perfect.
The nice thing about commercial stun guns is their size, they're quite compact. The reason for the spark gap is so that the attacker will get shocked though his cloths- with no
spark gap you have to find some skin which you may not have time to think about. The need is higher current- which when combined w ith about 10K volts will definitely put
Mr. Hardass on the ground :) . Your right about the 500K volts bullshit though, that w ould be quite hard to achieve with those little w ienny things.
PYRO500 July 14th, 2002, 03:48 AM

No, the spark gap does not make it so you can arc the thing through clothes, there are actually two spark gaps in stun guns, I w as referring to the one in series with the primary
of the transformer of the stun gun. When you press the button on a stun gun dow n a few things happen that add up to a capacitor on the main circuit board charging to
somew here around 1000V IIRC and w hen the electricity arcs across tw o strips of metal on the circuit board witch is in series with the main step up transformer witch takes the
pulse and steps up the voltage and is discharged through the output. The arc on the top could have two uses but is not arcing to the person while the device is on. One of the
main reasons for the arc is intimidation, the first commercially avalable stun guns with these weren't exactly toys like the ones today, they gave a very loud rapid snap that was
usually fierce, but ever since people started mass producing them they have gotten really really shitty. the other possible reason for the test arc it to keep the HV from the
transformer from finding a path through the epoxy insuation and effectively ruining the device. However That might not be necessary beacuse I had the thing running for quite a
while w ith the electrodes far apart and no spark between them. it is possible earlier stun guns could be destroyed with inferrior insulation. I plan on making my custum stun gun
about the size of one of those busnuess radios with everything tw eaked for maximum perfomance and insulated to protect from getting shocked through the battery
compartment while touching the victim. If you ever rip apart a stun gun you'll see that the internals are very tiny compared to the size of the case. the largest part is the main
step up transformer witch probobly could bve reduced in size by about half. Also w ith all stun guns in general I don't think many of them exceen 20-30 KV w ith possibly the mx
being 50 Kv. If I can ever get the parts to make this sucker expect schematics so you can build your own.
Edit:another thing you need to know about stun guns is that they are not really designed to knock you out. In fact I have never herd a first person report of anyone being
knocked out under further searching for any proof of people being knocked out by a stun gun I found info about the Ramsey trial. I found the follow ing quote "the Air Taser
does not render people unconscious and zapped himself on camera to prove it." and the link to that page is here: < a href="http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html"
target= "_blank">http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html< /a>
I have also found a w eb site backing my observations that stun guns don't put out half of what they say they do although their method of measuring voltage is flaw ed, they
need to find the maximum distance that the device w ill spark at but non the less there on the right track. <a href="http://w ww.taser.com/Tech/Voltage2.htm"
target= "_blank">http://w ww.taser.com/Tech/Voltage2.htm< /a>
[ July 14, 2002, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Bitter July 14th, 2002, 01:41 PM

Reminds me of that episode of jackass when they shocked some guy with a stun gun, a pepper spray and a tazer. It w as crap; the guy fell over after being shocked and got up
again five seconds later as if nothing had happened. That's more than enough time for the victim to retalliate, give chase or whatever.

The main limiting factor even in the little 50Kv stungun I have is the battery's max discharge current. Connected to a bench PSU, even at voltages lower than 9v, it gave a far
hotter spark. In fact it gave a "bunch" of 4 or 5 seperate sparks rather than just the one.
I destroyed one by putting a sheet of 1mm thick plastic btween the electrodes and w atching the purple "feelers" (streamers?). I presume the insultation broke down inside as
the unit just buzzed when "fired". Took it back and said "tried it out at home and it don't work!", got a straight swap for another one :)
How good are those air tazers that the cops use? All the video footage of tests I've seen, all the test subjects didn't manage to stay standing. Some literature (sales crap) claims
better knock down statistics than a handgun (I presume 9mm). They've introduced them as a non-lethal weapon for cops here in the UK, the nice thing is that before being
allowed to have one, the cops have to be "trained" w ith them, w hich involves each being shot with one :D
E7 July 15th, 2002, 12:30 AM

a coulpe of years ago i had to go to one of those dumb ass "scared straight" things (a waste of time) and at the end the prison guard had about 7 of us touch fingers and two
people put their fingers on the little elestrode things, (his stun gun was about the size of a video casette) and zapped us, all it did was tingle my fingers, but when i tried to pull
my fingers away, they felt like they didn't want to move untill he let go of the trigger i don't know if this was the type of stun gun he used or how powerful it was, but i imagine
if one person w as takeing the full charge it would completely immobilize you, untill the thing was removed. but these are prisons remind you w here they are only trying to
subdue you untill thay can cuff you.
PYRO500 July 15th, 2002, 01:41 AM

The problem w ith stun guns is that they don't totally immobilize you. Stun guns in reality cause pain witch may very in severity depending on some factors such as the power of
the stun gun area contacted etc. they will cause a muscle to flex rapidly and this is very surprising and strange in feeling. I never really felt any pain in any area other than the
are applied I tried it on my leg and my arm and several areas that had no muscle in them and it seems to have a diffrent more stinging effect.
As for a stun gun the size of a video casette tape, I kind of doubt that, among the biggest stun guns I have seen are these ones for cop issue in law enforcement catalogs that
have 2 9V batterys and even a very high pow er one w ouldn't need that size case to hold the electronics.
The main factor I am going to try to overcome is th max current I can draw from the battery. Surplus NiMh battery packs have fairly high max amount of current for their size
and I always considered a stun gun like radios, something that needs one of those desktop chargers to charge internal or connected batteries for max performance. If I can't get
a sutable NiMh battery I w ill probobly result to a few nicad cells that are steped up in voltage via a dc-dc converter. I think the design will be similar to the scr driven ignition coil
drivers except If I don't use an ignition coil the circuit will be tweaked for the alternate frequency's.
McGuyver July 15th, 2002, 01:17 PM

The hottest spark (high amps) and the highest frequency will make the loudest sound, if thats w hat your looking for. My homebuilt stun gun uses no internal spark gap. It's
merely a switching (TRANSISTORS) 1,200 volts AC power supply which is fed into 2 magnetos. It is built so that they have opposite charges so one output jumps to the other
output. A battery-powered power supply is quite easy to make.
I doubt highly they use sparking voltage just for intimidation, also having a smaller spark gap ( on the outside of a commercial stun gun) isn't as hard on the transformer. The
prongs sticking out ( the ones meant to shock) will only arc when that path has less resistance (into a body). The large arc allows for the voltage to pass through clothing and to
the body. How do you expect to shock someone if they have, say a leather coat on- you could go for the face :) , but they would most likely stop you before you did that.
Believe me when I say my stun gun puts out 110,000 volts, I've measured it making sparks over 11 cm long. It is also quite large, 11 in. long and about 3 in. in diameter- its a
cylinder like container. Thats all you need to put yours in too - to keep from getting shocked by the battery compartment.
I also never said anyone could get knocked out by a stun gun- just put on the ground from the inability to control muscles or whatever happens. I can give you the schematic
for the power supply if you want it. You can use ignition coils or magnetos, I just used magnetos because they are smaller and thats w hat I was looking for. Ignition coils are
better to use though because they are usually filled w ith oil w hich makes them less susceptible to high voltage breakdown.

I've always wonder w hat w ould happen if you ran a wire from one electrode of a comercial stungun to the base of someone's spine and another to the base of their skull. Or
sticking your eyeball betw een the electrodes... Feeling brave pyro? :)
The shocking through the battery compartment is an odd thing. I found that if you touch one electrode to a grounded object (an earthed electrical appliance in this case), the
stungun w ould operate as normal, sparking accross it's gap, or to the appliance casing if close enough, but I'd always get a shock through the battery compartment, regardless
of whether I was earthed too, or not.
PYRO500 July 15th, 2002, 06:09 PM

I'm not gonna take my stun gun and zap my eyeball with it, the probable result of something like that is having a corneal tear or a spot on your cornea that develops a scab or
welt irritating the fuck outta your eye. As for taking a wire from the base of the spine and the top of the neck I tried that and I felt a few of my back and neck muscles contract,
not really painful. I did try once shocking a pulsed flyback transformer throuhg my temples it caused me to see a a w hite flash in my vision. it was strange kind of like seeing
stars w hen yoiu get hit in the head albeit only for an instand during the relitively low pow er pulse from the transformer. (the pulse w as only from the saturated magnetic core
witch w as energised by a 9V battery and disconnected.
Whitey July 15th, 2002, 10:08 PM

Oddly enough after reading this thread, someone I work with mentioned getting a stun gun for his girlfriend. He tested it on himself and it "hurt like a bitch but not that bad".
I think the effectiveness of a stun gun rests partially on surprise. Someone w ho expects to be shocked will be less affected than someone w ho is shocked totally out of the blue.
This is similiar to mace, people who are maced during a test remain standing and are still able to fight (some what), probably due to the fact that they would naturally be
squinting and would try to avoid breathing in the gas. Others I have talked to who have been maced in a real world situation found it totally disabling because they did not
expect to be sprayed.
PYRO500 July 16th, 2002, 08:40 AM

McGuyver, what exactly are yow talking about w hen you mention magnetoes? The only magnetos I have herd of are generators usally for high voltage that are often found in
small engines for ignition? did you remove the magneto coils and use the inductance in them to make HV ? How do you pulse the power to the coils? I am assuming you pulse
them w ith a capacitor right? I know that pulsing thw transformer w thout anything for it to arc through is possibly going to create a conductive path in the epoxy but after much
abuse (not a severe anough w ord) my el cheapo stun gun transformer is still alive. I think the original designers intent of the spark electrodes w as for intimidation, the
engineering team must have taken protecting the transformer and intimidation into account or else the spark gap would probobly be on the inside. If you don't think a stun gun
has an intimidating sound, go to a security world store or whatever and ask them to demonstrate an intimidator dual 9V battery stun gun, they are almost always fitted with
fresh batteries for demonstration and the dual 9V battery ones are often ferce.
nbk2000 July 16th, 2002, 09:09 AM

Since you're building them yourselves, there's no reason not to build in the option of lethality.
Punk fucks with you, stun him. He pulls out a knife or gets 4 buddies...time to die! All at the flick of a sw itch.
An idea I got from watching a show about Less-Lethals was a stunner unit that, instead of launching (complicated), w ould instead be stuck on the target using a baton. The
baton would have several such stunner units in the end, so you could stick several people. The stunners remain attached to the victim w ith rat-trap type glue, or barbs.
You don't have to remain in close proximity to the target to keep them stunned, and you're not restricted to dealing with one target at a time as you would be with conventional
stunners.
PYRO500 July 17th, 2002, 03:13 AM

That just gave me an idea, have a club like device w ith some little sticky firecrackers with metal barbs on them, they are alot of them and when they are stuck to your prey
they explode a little w hile afer being seperated from the club :) .
nbk2000 July 17th, 2002, 08:07 AM

I like that idea! A barbed string of firecrackers, each larger than the last, stuck on a punk and exploding about every 1/2 second for at least 15 seconds. By the time the last one
goes off, it's like an M-80.
This would draw attention, naturally, but would keep the punk occupied w ith other things while you run away. In the end, he's dazed but unharmed. Unless, in a panic, he runs
onto an expressw ay or off a bridge. :D
PYRO500 July 17th, 2002, 08:24 PM

What about a more harmful version of that kind of device? w hat about a stick covered in m-80 sized firecrackers that are individual, they have straightened out fishhooks for
attachment barbs and take out little chunks of flesh when they explode! of course if you had your string of firecrackers out of flash they might do the same thing.
also what is keeping you from making some kind of rocket propelled launcher that launches a few tiny firecrackers w ith barbs. I am tinking something like flash tipped exploding
bottle rockets with straightened out fishhooks in the end (they really can get a hold on skin. these would be electronicly wired in a series of small tubes to give them more
speed and would only be used short range due to the bottle rocket's tendency top spin without a stick.

A bunch of firecrackers coated in sticky trap glue kind of like < a href="http://ww w.coburnco.com/mrsticky/New Files/mouseandrat.html" target= "_blank">THIS STUFF</a> ,
not necessarily that brand but that kind of trap. The glue on those fuckers is very sticky, it is sticky like goo so if you try to pull it off it w ill just get stuck on your hand, and if
you try to shake it off it won't fall off. Vegetable oil is apparently the "solvent", it isn't a solvent, it just makes it unsticky.
PYRO500 July 17th, 2002, 10:55 PM

as much as glue w ould be effective here you also have to consider concealment and storage, that's w hy I think methal barbs w ould be most effective, not only do they not
make a mess but they wount stick to something like a table or an inanimate object but they will stick easily to clothes or skin.
W_S August 4th, 2002, 08:08 PM

Well, this isn't a commercial stun gun, but i couldn't think of anyw here else to put it. I was at a friends house earlier today and saw a lighter on a shelf. I picked it up and tried
to light it it shocked me, this was not a malfunction, but it was a trick lighter. it w asn't very painful, but it scared the hell out oe me and as an almost reflex, i threw the lighter
accross the room. when someone else tried it, and they were expecting to get shocked they still threy it down almost automaticly. when he threw it it stoped w orking. I took it
apart and all it was was a AAA battery, and a coil of w ire. i do not know anything about electronics so i don't know w hat this was called, but it looked like a coil of copper w ire.
when you touched the buttom of the lighter and the base in the same hand it would shock you slightly.
Now, i was just thinking w hat if you could use a larger power source, like one of those 3v lithium batterys and a capacitor(sp) from a disposible camera, you might be able to
rig a lighter with the contacts comeing out the bottom of the lighter. it wouldn't be very powerful at all, i know, but it would be very discreet and still have some power to it.
I'll try and take some pictures of the inside on the lighter and post them to the FTP.
shrek August 5th, 2002, 12:18 AM

If you take apart the clicky button type butane lighter (About 6 inches long), and take out the crystal that creates the electricity, you can just press the wires up against
someone and click it... hurts bad on the spine, etc.
Also I made a stun gun one time. (Well a kill gun :) ) It was a PG&E pole capacitor, 15Kv or so, and I had it charge off of a neon sign transformer. The unit was in a backpack,
and I had a PVC pipe with the wires coming out and attaching to rods. So all I do is press the rods against something... BANG! I was going to get a switch, but could not find
anything to take the current, that was cheap. It w as cool.
shrek
PYRO500 August 5th, 2002, 01:11 AM

A piezoelectric lighter unit? please, that w ouldn't kill an ant a fly or any small insect you could find (believe me I've tried) and a PG&e capacitor? you give no information about.
as for charging the capacitor w ith a NST that is w asteful at it is discharging at every AC cycle and unless it arcs over at a specific voltage should at least have a HV diode to
rectify the ac.
shrek August 5th, 2002, 02:07 AM

The piezoelectric lighter unit, I thought it stung when I did it on my spine... and a PG&E capacitor, I gave no info about it because I do not have the info off hand. I'll go check it,
it is stored at my grandparents house, and come back with the info... if you really want it. And the output w as rectified, the unit was constructed back in the day, w hen my dad
was a kid. The charger and cap w ere his old toys.
shrek

A stun gun will only produced the knock down effects if the contacts are kept very close to the attack for close to three seconds. On another interesting note, if they have a
pacemaker they w ill die almost instantly. There are people of all ages out there w ith pacemakers, and if you drop one of these people you will be charged will no less than
Manslaughter One. Have fun and don't kill anyone on accident

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Claymore version alfa 0.1
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View Full Version : Claymore version alfa 0.1
xoo1246 July 16th, 2002, 04:13 PM

Someone built and tried a claymore(few weeks ago), constructed of around 365 8mm steel balls and 410 grams of ANNM(25%NM,75%AN). By using a cone with a flat bottom,
the builder intended to give some extra velocity to the steel balls by munroe effect(explosives beind and on the sides of 1mm steel cone). Somehow everything fucked up and
the few balls that hit the target had a very low velocity(propably most of them hit before the target since the builder only found one tree hit behind the target).
Targets were 5mm steel plate(optimistic), and around 2cm wooden plate.
Atleast the builder didn't kill himself.
Now please, evalutate.
The picture sais it all.
Pictures are no longer avalible.

The images showing the construction are the first numbers, then scenery, then detonation, then target images.
[ July 17, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
kingspaz July 16th, 2002, 07:23 PM

i'd put it down to the shape of the charge. theres a relatively small area of explosive in contact with the balls. note the shape of real claymores. thin plate of explosive with
large area of explosive in contact with the balls. the explosive more than 2cm behind the balls is goind to have little additional effect if any since the explosive well detonate a
roughly uniform rate thus propelling the balls at a speed which cannot be added too greatly by a explosive further behind the balls detonating at a simliar speed. so basically
what you need is a tin box 250*150mm and about 40mm deep. 10mm of space for ball bearings and 30mm for the explosive behind it.

Whats the stand? It looks like a small camera stand or something?

How far away was the target?
nbk2000 July 16th, 2002, 11:40 PM

I hope you're NOT having these pictures developed! It IS being taken with a digital camera, correct? Because I can just imagine the police looking at copies of these pictures
with an unpleasant smile on their faces.
nbk2000 July 17th, 2002, 01:07 AM

Well, from the pictures, it looks like the targets are at least 20 meters away, right?
1-6 Pictures of the claymore. You know, it looks a lot more like an EFP projector than a claymore. Next time, you may want to aim it (without the bearings) at the steel plate
from 5-10 meters away and see if it will punch a hole in it. Use a waveformer though. This is a 2" thick wood or styrofoam disc that's a half inch less in radius than the can it
sits in.
11 Looks like the balls were just randomly poured in?
18-20 The area where the claymore was exploded?
22-24, 27 Penetrated the wood completely. These would have been serious or fatal wounds on a person hit in the torso.
25 The bearings hit with enough force to leave a full sized dent of a bearing in 5mm steel plate! This shows that there was more than enough velocity behind them.
From the pictures, it looks like you need to work on controlling the dispersion of the fragments. The velocity is there, but the pattern is random. You'd want uniform dispersion
to ensure hits.
Also, since a claymore is an anti-personnel weapon, you may want more realistic targets to test it against.
Here's a target design made from cardboard. You'll need two sheets of cardboard for each target.
The first sheet is cut 2.5' long, by 18" wide.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/target1.jpg" alt=" - " />
The second sheet is cut 2' long by 18" wide.
Cut the tabs and notches as shown and slide the two sheets together.
This forms a 3D target that is self-standing.
Anything that hits the 6" wide head is considered a fatal hit. Anything in the central (protruding) part is a serious/fatal injury. Anywhere else is a flesh wound. You want at least
three hits to the central mass to ensure the kill.
Set up a dozen or so targets at different ranges and angles from your claymore to test dispersion.
The ultimate targets are, of course, live targets. Your in a forest area, surely there must be deer or something that you could bait and blast. Nothing tastes better than meat
you blasted with your own claymore! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
mrloud July 17th, 2002, 02:48 AM

Half your explosive energy went into propelling the tin can backwards. Isn't the normal use of a claymore to bury it in a small hole and cover with a few leaves and sticks? For
these experiments, I'd suggest placing the back of the tin up against a sandbag or a big rock.
nbk2000 July 17th, 2002, 08:10 AM

Ah, but in actual use, would you always have the luxury of backinh it with a sandbag or boulder? Of course not.
The way he has it set up now is just fine. I especially like the little tripod and sight. Gives it that added professional touch. :)
Anyhows, here's some drawings from the original claymore patent. In the patent, it's stressed how important it is that the explosive be in direct contact with the fragments, to
impel them with maximum velocity.
Explosive weight is listed as being from 20% to 200% of the weight of the fragments.
As it was, only the fragments directly against the explosive got the full velocity. Those were the ones that dented the steel. Those farthest from the explosive basicly got
pushed, and not shot, out of the mine. So you had a wide spread of fragment velocity. :(
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/CM.gif" alt=" - " />
In it's simplist form, you'd lay the fragments in a single layer in the bottom of a rectangular box, leaving a small border of about 1/2" of empty space around the frags. (See
Fig. 9)
Fill the border, and the remainder of the box, with your explosive and rear-center prime. Obviously, the more explosive behind your frags, the faster they'll go. :)
Since you now know that the frags won't penetrate your steel target, you may want to be behind it when you set the next one off. Being downrange of a weapon gives you a
whole different perspective on its effectiveness. You can hear the frags whistling by you, bouncing off the steel, etc. A tape recorder would be good too. Spectrum analysis of
the sound can reveal all sorts of details, like velocity of fragments and uniformity of dispersion.
Plus we'd like to hear it going BOOM! too, you know. :p
xoo1246 July 17th, 2002, 01:47 PM

Someone seems to like claymores. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Thanks for all the good comments, and no the pictures werent developed(taken with a digital camera). That would have been fairly stupid. Posting them here is risky enought,
happily the builder is not me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
You are right about that fragments have to be in contact with explosive to have primary fragmentation effect, and if not in contact, confinment must be heavily increased. Say,
if you use a (thick) steel pipe with one end sealed and fragments 1/4 way into that pipe(explosives behind).
Much like a shotgun. Or is that what you call a pipe-claymore(NBK)?
I have seen military claymores, belive it was anti-vehicle types, where the fragments are inside a block of some kind of casted(brittle?) metal? They must rely on confinment
to reach high velocities I assume.
In large destructive devices(those that are most often dropped from planes, not saying the B-word :) ) with heavy confinment, c:w ratio of around 2:3 fragments can reach
4000 m/s. With a c:w ratio of 1:10 the velocity average 1000 m/s wich is the aproximate speed required to penetrate 10mm steel(depending on shape and weight). Above
2000 m/s shape doesn't mather much. (from E,P&P)
The tripod was from a camera staive, the distance was around 10-15 meters.
If anyone will be behind a steel plate infront of a claymore it won't be a person, rather a tape recorder. Especially since there is no point in constructing the same things over
and over again, you wish to develop(if you are sure they don't work properly), right?
Ah, a claymore patent, have had troubles finding any.
Zero July 17th, 2002, 03:49 PM

Shallow thought of the day: I think we just found a use for those silly tins the AOL CDs ship in nowadays...
I'm picturing two stuck together, one stuffed with explosive and the other with lead shot.
mongo blongo July 17th, 2002, 06:28 PM

Being behind a steel plate with explosive propelled 8mm steel balls flying at you at a high velocity would be one hell of a rush!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" />
I think I might just be crazy enough to do it! :) Send the video to the guys from Jackass. :D
A-BOMB July 18th, 2002, 12:49 AM

Or just have it posthusmely sent the Darwin Awards, people because Jackass doesn't take tapes from the audience of then killing themself with a claymore (or anytapes for
that matter)
john_smith December 3rd, 2002, 10:16 PM

Theory question:
Is there a reasonably simple and effective way for calculating the force that a fixed claymore applies to it's backing?
nbk2000 December 3rd, 2002, 10:41 PM

Define what you mean by "backing".
Is that the side of the mine NOT facing the enemy? Or are you talking about having the claymore mounted to something (like a wall) and want to know if it'd be destroyed by
the blast?
Assuming you know the explosive type and weight, there's formulas out there to compute PSI and such.
RTPB P.F.F Assume whatever you attach it to will be destroyed. Thus don't attach it to anything you'll miss. :)
john_smith December 3rd, 2002, 11:19 PM

In fact, I was thinking about something like <a href="http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/antiambush_devices.htm" target="_blank">this</a>, and whether a normal
full frame car or truck would survive the blasts. More exactly, attaching a couple of mini-claymores to the reinforced front bumper, and some to the rear. If it'd work,
well...think crashing roadblocks for instance. Fire front charges upon approach to make the piggies take cover, and the rear ones (angled to give more spread) immeadiately
after crashing through to finish them off :D It would probably also do a good job getting rid of those pesky...erm...tailgaters :D
Edit: damn graemlins...
[ December 03, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: john_smith ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > My new Spudgun!
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View Full Version : My new Spudgun!
Kdogg December 1st, 2001, 05:54 PM

I have recently made a new spudgun, The barrel is 2" & about 4 ft long, maybe a little less. It has a 3" chamber that is about 20in. long. I have implanted a lantern ignitor in
the back of the gun, on the clean out plug. I fired it about 8 times with White Rain hairspray, the potato barely w ent 100 ft at the most & had as pussy ass shw oomp sound.
The amount of hairspray in seconds spray varied from 2 to 7 seconds. Tw o to three seconds seemed to work the best. I then tried carb cleaner, thinking it w as my hairspray
that was bad, but that barely worked. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG?? My friend has a small gun that is tw ice as loud w hen dry fired! Is my chamber too big or too small for my
barrel? Do I need better propellants? Please help...
------------------
Monkeyman
ALENGOSVIG1 December 1st, 2001, 06:17 PM

You should've calculated the barrel/chamber length for optimum performance.
hairspray is a shitty fuel, don't use it. dont use carb cleaner either becuase it will deteriorate the the pipe. use propane, butane, or if you made the gun out of thick walled ABS
pipe use MAPP/propane mix.
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited 12-01-2001).]
Kdogg December 1st, 2001, 08:00 PM

Shit, I dont know how to caculate to get the right ratios, nor have I seen any on sites. I have noticed that people that use 3" for the chamber & 2" for the barrel, use a shorter
chamber, but damn near same length of barrel. So im thinking I will get another reducer cut the old one off, shorten the chamber, & try that. How do you disperse your propane
into your gun?? & how much??
------------------
Monkeyman
BoB- December 1st, 2001, 08:28 PM

Try sw itching to a smaller barell, as in 1 1/2", or 1". Keep reducing until you get optimum performance.
CyclonitePyro December 2nd, 2001, 09:15 AM

My spudgun, is has a 4" y section, with a 5' long 1 1/2" barrel, I use static guard as the fuel, that stuff is just aw esome, way better than starting fluid or propane. I have a
100,000 volt stun gun with wires leading inside the gun close to each other so when you push the trigger a large sparks jump across. Very loud, it makes your ears ring
sometimes, and shoot potatoes across the lake I live at, maybe 250 yards.
If I want to post some pictures of it here would I take a picture with my digital camera and then put it on one of those picture hosting websites and post the url here?
O yeah, my first gun was exactly the one you described, it shot exactly as you desribed as well, it sucked.
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"
[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited 12-02-2001).]
Energy84 December 2nd, 2001, 02:33 PM

Well, if you're like me, you're probably looking for the easiest possible fix. Try blowing air into the chamber after each shot. I might help a little bit...
Personally though, I prefer pneumatics. they're cleaner and more pow erful in my opinion. I used the plans from this page: http://users2.nbn.net/~shindel/
download_free_plans.htm and it's awesome! I made a few modifications to the diaphragm and used ABS instead of PVC to reduce the risk of the thing shattering in our cold
Canadian w inters! It performs very good too, launching a small, very hard frozen pear over 200yards at 40psi... no use using more pressure 'cause fruit isn't very aerodynamic
and it slow s down to terminal velocity right away :-( oh, it has a 1.5"x6' barrel and a 4"x4' chamber.
------------------
why oh w hy didn't I take the blue pill?
Kdogg December 3rd, 2001, 04:17 PM

I already have a pnuematic, uses a ball valve though. This one has interchangeable barrels.
------------------
Monkeyman
Kdogg December 3rd, 2001, 07:47 PM

Tonight I bought another 2 to 3in. reducer, & cut the old one off & shortened my chamber to 1 ft. It works pretty damn good now, & is just as loud as my friends w hen dry
fired. Now I am more familiar with pnuematic ones, So I have a few more questions: 1.Sometimes when I use the hairspray It misfires & I need to clean it out or w ait a w hile
before it w ill work again. How can I fix this? 2.I am going to swich to propane, How much should I put in of this? 3 seconds? How to you put yours in, through a hole? Or from
breech?
------------------
Monkeyman
CyclonitePyro December 4th, 2001, 01:33 PM

I'm telling ya, use "Static Guard", it is in the laundry section of most stores, w here the clothes detergents are.
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"
Kdogg December 4th, 2001, 06:30 PM

Yeah, I have heard that before, but have not found it yet. Also today I bought some ether, & tried it. Not once did it fire. I think its because it shoots in a stream not in a mist.
How much Ether would anyone reccomend?
------------------
Monkeyman
imported_Sgt_Starr January 1st, 2002, 01:06 AM

Hey guys,
Wow long time no see eh?This upgrade looks nice...(just a little complicated for my taste) Anyw ays, more to the point. I have only gone through one spud gun(had some times
when it has gone sour on me) Ive refurbed it and so on and it is still doing better than what yall say was your first combustion, (this was my first attempt and has out-tested
models Ive have most recently made) My barrel is 33"X2" long with a 4 in flash supressor I made from a telescope Shade(it actually works well, it keeps my excess burn off or
"flash" wich without the flash supressor is usually a 5 in diameter ball of flame into a 3 in long candle flame) My chamber is a 19"X3" PVC pipe, I use a Wal-mart brand Spray
Lubricant(5 short bursts, mb 7) and I can fire a 1 1/2 Section of PVC pipe with a domed encap filled with paper and wrapped in Cardboard (tip is weighted w ith Elmers glue)
about 300 yards, Sorry for all the blabble just to say that, its just really good to be back! (my ignition is a Grill Piezio connected to 2 Steel screws 1/2 in long spaced about 1/3
to a half in apart I usually get a spark under all conditions) I think the reason you have to wait awhile is because you have an excess of CO2 and w ater vapor in the chamber
and not alot of O2 (ergo the no ignition or incomplete ignition) Try blowing in the pipe or using a bycicle pump to blow the CO2 out and the air in should work everytime then.
hope this helps in someway!
Fallout85 January 1st, 2002, 01:44 PM

CP- Yeah, it's great stuff. Surprisingly clean and powerful! Similar to straight butane. It makes a pretty good bang in my 1" barrell and 3" chamber gun. The first time I used it
my neighbors thought it was a real gun and called the cops! I uploaded the jpg on the forum ftp so everyone will know w hat to look for.
Fallout85 January 5th, 2002, 02:59 PM

RTC- Thanks. I didn't actually read NBK's message until after I had uploaded it. But I figured nobody would mind terribly since it's only 32k. I'll crop my photos from now on.
Yep, it's from a camcorder. I have this thing called Snappy that hooks the camera into the printer port essentially converting it into a digital camera. You can hook it into
anything with the red and white prongs. VCR, TV, DVD, gaming consoles, ect. I got it on Ubid for about $30. It's normally about $60, but it's worth it.

spudguns rule :D
AcridSmoke April 9th, 2002, 07:51 PM

I've made a couple of pneumatics and fired quite a few combustions, and I still like pneumatics.
I use the cheapest possible potatoes and a 1+ 1/4" barrel for two shots per big potato. The chamber is 1+ 1/2" by 5 feet. My friend uses a 2" barrel and a 4" by 4 feet chamber.
(these are pneumatics). His barrel used to be much shorter, but now he uses a 7 foot barrel and I use a 10 foot. That changed the range for both of us from 250 yards to more
like 400.
For combustion... My uncle's has a tiny chamber and a really long barrel. It shoots 300-350 yards with Aqua-Net Hairspray.
I suggest a 1+1/2" barrel with more length than your chamber, regardless of diameter. I've had the best result with a setup like this... Requires minimal measurement :)
Zach April 9th, 2002, 11:59 PM

if you dont have access to static-gaurd or whatever, try spray deoderant... check the fine print, it usually says what the propellant is. a friend of mine tried using oxy/
acetaline... he had to get peices of pvc carved outta his face at the hospital :D
Bignutsami April 10th, 2002, 11:41 AM

How thick is everyone's spudgun PVC (in mm)?
Will help in comparing betw een countries w hich all seem to use different systems.
In Australia
PN18 40mm (1.5")= 4mm thick

PN18 50mm (2")= 5mm thick
PN18 100mm (4")= 9mm thick
Note - they are actually metric sizes, not imperial called metric, so slightly different sized to imperial systems.

21.5mm (3/4") - 1.5mm
32mm (1.25") - 2mm
40mm (1.5") - 2mm
50mm (2") - 2mm
68mm (2.5") - 2mm
110mm (4.5") - 3-3.5mm
I haven't used 2.5" or 4.5" for pneumatic yet. Scarily thin huh?
Sparky April 11th, 2002, 06:10 PM

I've had some experience with spudguns. The only reason I don't like pnuematics is because 1)I don't have a good compressor and 2) they are not nearly as portable (I live in
the city so I have to travel every time I want to use my SRDF). I put up a crappy page more than a a year or so ago and I don't think I have gotten a visitor since <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . It is basically a diary of all the stuff I have done since I started with spudguns: <a href="http://
w w w.pyropage.50megs.com/." target="_blank"> http://www .pyropage.50megs.com/.</a>
I run my gun w ith propane and I have devised a simple measuring device to make sure it works every time. Ether (QuickStart) does give a sharper bang if the amount is just
right but it's just not worth the chance of getting it wrong, it not firing, airing out etc.I made it out of ABS because it was easier to get than PVC. I had lots of problems with fuel
when I first started so that's why I decided to scrap the guesswork and go propane. My page has all the details about my three guns.
In Canada they usually refer to PVC pipe and ABS by schedule 20, 40 and so on but those are the common ones.
AcridSmoke April 13th, 2002, 12:42 AM

I've been using SCH40 pipe for all of my cannons... I believe my combustion friends have too. I don't know what the w idth is in mm, but it tends to have a 350 psi rating.
That's more than enough for most spudguns.
My compression is usually around 90 psi. Unless you seriously damage the pipe, the only risk you have are improperly primed+ cemented fittings.
Spudgunner April 17th, 2002, 09:40 PM

Just thought I'd put my new spudgun info up. Chamber 5 feet long, 4 inch pipe. The barrel is 10 feet long (right now, can be whatever length I want) and is w hatever diameter
I want ( I have a 2 inch female adapter on the chamber, can hook up whatever I want). It can be combustion OR pnuematic w ith a change of the endcap, and removing the
sprinkler valve that is screwed onto the 2 inch female adapter. I need a new grill ignitor (or to modify the one I have so it w ill work), so I have not tested the combustion
properties yet. I just finished the pnuematic converstion today though, and I have tested it. One word: "Wow!" I have a 10 foot, 1 inch barrel on there right now . I first tested it
with a wad of new spaper at around 80 or 100 psi. I put a small (inch by 3 inch by 4 inch) paperboard box at the end of the barrel, held up by a steel plate a quarter inch thick,
about 4 by 5 inches, and a hammer against that. I shot it, and pieces of newspaper w ent everywhere. It went through the box (obviously) and shot the steel plate and hammer
back around 3 or 4 feet (on concrete).
Ok, so I decide it is time for a real test. I take a 2 liter bottle and fill it with w ater. I put a small (inch long hunk, if that large and inch diameter) in the barrel and set the barrel
aimed at the 2 liter. Compress up to 100 psi and BAM! There is now a 1 inch hole in one side of the bottle w ith a split running vertically from the hole above and below it about
2 or 3 inches, and the cap is completely shattered from the hydraulic force. Not bad.... I am hoping to fully test the capabilites next time I head to my farm using a C-cell
battery (perfect fit in 1 inch barrel). I am hoping for at LEAST a quarter mile range, and I am sure it will easily get that.
Spudgunner (aka Spudgunr)
Purple Fire April 29th, 2002, 05:52 AM

Ive only built one pneumatic spudgun before, just a real long ugly thin diameter prototype to test the principal, but im just starting work on my next one, a proper one. It w ill
have a 65mm barrel that is split in tw o places with screw fitting so you can choose a long(accurate) barrel, a short( mortar style) one, or a compromise. There are 3 air tanks
one to each side and one underneath. Tw o have valves at the end so you can have large, medium and small tank sizes. The barrel is 500mm long and each of the tanks is
300mm.
The only pipe available in NZ is either pressure pipe, or ordinary PVC spouting. While the pressure pipe is fairly cheap, the fittings are VERY expensive, otherwise i w ould have
made several spud guns by now.
Pneumatic cannons are far better than crapy combustion ones, so much more reliable!
My fav ammo by far is ice slugs! you can get a perfect fit in the barrel and they are lubed from the water on the sides. They go for miles! The second favourite is fishing sinkers,
i can get ones that fit perfectly in the 15mm barrel of the prototype and i can put one through a fence paling at 20m. For the new gun, i found that Monteith's beer botles fit
almost perfectly in the barrel! im gonna be havin me some FUN!
Yi May 5th, 2002, 06:59 PM

Purple Fire..did you use to live in the UK? I think I know you :)
Send me an email if you did as I won't be here to read this until the end of this month..
Ctrl_C May 5th, 2002, 07:57 PM
I built a pneumatic one using the SGTC SupahValve. It's awesome. It will but a potato through 1" think Oriental Strand Board (similar to plywood) at over 50 yards. Caulking
tubes fly straight as an arrow too. I've shot chains, bolts, nails etc., all make it through the board but the 8" long nails only go half way in. I also was shot w ith a foam ball (for
soaking with w ater and throw ing at people...a toy) at 20 feet at 50 psi and oh my god did it hurt like a mother. Like a giant paintball hitting you VERY hard. ow wie. I am fully
confident this thing could take out small aircraft if you could hit them and I am going to try to kill a deer with it.
Cyclonite May 3rd, 2003, 10:19 PM

I would post a new thread but I dont have many posts and this is semi on subject.
I have entertained the idea of Sabot rounds for my spud gun for a while and decided to give it a shot. I used a foam cylinder cut in half surrounding the Sabot made of lead. I
just drilled a 1/4 in sized hole in some wood and put in molten lead to make a sabot. I shapened the tip of the sabot and mushroomed the other end of it. I then placed it in the
foam cylinder with duct tape on the rear ensureing even push on the projectile. Needless to say, I w as rather impressed at the resullts of a sabot round from my spud gun (10')
on a junked car, has anyone tried this before? Im sure there could be alot of improvment on this design.
xyz May 3rd, 2003, 10:58 PM

I hope to do some experimentation with Sabot rounds in my Pneumatic Cannon. The cannon has two barrels, a 20mm one for launching small potatoes and CO2 cannisters, and
a 50mm one for launching normal size potatoes, onions, etc. Both barrels are about 185cm long.
BTW, does anyone have a chart of what pressures different (Australian) PN classes are rated for?
I made mine from PN 9 w hich is about the same thickness as the stuff that Anthony mentioned earlier in this thread.
Axt May 4th, 2003, 12:43 AM

xyz, the PN rating is the pressure rating, PN9 means rated to 9bar. 9bar is 130psi.
xyz May 4th, 2003, 03:54 AM

I knew that it was the pressure rating, I didn't know what units it was measured in though. Thanks for telling me its measured in bar.
Spaced Monkey 2002 May 7th, 2003, 09:52 AM

I recently tried a projectile made from a 6 inch section of the steel (?) rod used to reinforce concrete buildings. This w as wrapped in masking tape to fit the 20 mm barrel of my
friends pneumatic cannon. Sadly his compressor screw ed up and w e had to use a cheap-ass bike pump to pump up the cannon. It still managed to smash through a breeze
block at 10 metres though. The breeze block was stood up against a wall for support...
Flake2m May 8th, 2003, 07:50 AM

I have a reletivly small pneumatic spudcannon. 25mm barrel and a 40mm air chamber both are about 1m long. I also have an attachable 15mm which I use for marbles. It is
quite pow erful for its size, especially at a fairly short range and at 100 psi.
I made a special sabot round for the cannon and I wanted to test it. I put a carboard box as a target. When I fired the round @ 120 psi the round made an entrance hole about
40mm wide and the exit hole was about 150mm wide :eek:. the round keep going until it hit a hardwood fence behind the box, at which point it embedded itself into the fence.
It is stil there today.
The round I made consisted of 2 polystyrene blocks with an 10cm screw in the middle and 8 4cm nails surrounding it.
I have a "sniper style" piston spud cannon in the w orks, but progress has been delayed due to my studies. When I finally finish it though, the power it w ill have would be
aw some.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Laser Claymore/Tripmine
Log in
View Full Version : Laser Claymore/Tripmine
Riot D e c e m ber 14th, 2001, 04:37 PM

I got this ide a after reading the post o n the touchlight landm i n e s .
T o m a k e a l a s e r t r i p m i n e a l l u n e e d i s t o g e t o n e o f t h o s e s e n t r y l i g h t s a n d r e p l a ce the lightbulbs with ur explosive of choice.

And if you wanted to m ake it transportable hoo k it up to a car battery.
The laser tripmine is m ore effective cos u can dodge a landmine (not saying it's a bad idea) by m i s t e a k , b u t u c a n ' t d o d g e a n
i n f a - r e d b e a m (if u don't know it's there)
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 14th, 2001, 05:07 PM

http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon22.gif
Can you spell HED? http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif
------------------

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Shaped charge
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View Full Version : Shaped charge
Yikes D e c e m ber 14th, 2001, 09:34 PM

Have any of you guys ever thought about how to build an effective shaped charge?
W hat would you use, how would you co nstruct it, what re sults would you g et?
CyclonitePyro D e c e m ber 14th, 2001, 10:21 PM

Ouch...
Try a search. W ait no, quick delete or change your threadhttp://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"
twinkle D e c e m ber 15th, 2001, 04:30 AM

I know that there is written a lot about it and to find here when he would search but maybe when you would take another
a p p r o a c h a n d l o o k f o r u s i n g c o m m o n o n h a n d m aterials like a ( conicals) reflecto rs of a lamp (fitting) and so , this would be
s o m ething different
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 15th, 2001, 05:08 PM

Y i k e s, on his VERY FIR S T P O S T , p o s t s a t o p i c a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a s b e e n d i s c u s s e d u m p t e e n b a z i l l i o n t i m e s .
Not an auspecious start. :shaking head:
Firstly, newbies really shouldn't post a new topic till they've been here a while and proven themselves otherwise they're m uch
m ore likely to get deleted for being fuck ups.
I f y o u ' v e b e e n h e r e a w h i l e , a n d p o s t s o m ething stupid (which if you've been here a while is unlikely) you're m uch m ore likely
to get a warning, rath er than outright banned.
So, being as it is, I'm locking this thread.
Y i k e s, you need to search first. Not just here, b ut the internet as well. You'll be am azed at what you find.
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > circular charges
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View Full Version : circular charges
Neil McCauley December 16th, 2001, 08:52 AM

I have a simple question: if you make a circular/frame shaped charge e.g. by putting a piece of det cord in a shape and the
beginning and end meet each other, where and how do you attach the detonator?
Because the detonator should always point in the direction of the end of the explosive charge, that is the direction in which you
want the shockwave to move.
Can you put it just anywhere and reliably iniate the det cord? And will the shockwave go both ways, or just one. And if so, won't
the explosion blow the end of the det cord away before the shockwave reaches it?
So, how do you iniate a circular shaped charge?
Mr Cool December 16th, 2001, 09:08 AM

Well if you have a ring of det cord, the only place you can initiate it from is a point on the ring.
I'm sure you didn't need a new post to ask this, there are several threads on shaped charges... although your LOW EXPLOSIVE
shaped charge is interesting. Not a good choice of section, IMHO.
------------------
Anthony December 16th, 2001, 02:54 PM

If you have a ring of det cord, no matter which way you point the cap, it's going to be pointing along the cord. Yes the
detonation wave will proagate in both directions.

I would just have "Q" style tail and attache the Cap to the tail. But what do I know right.
------------------

Exactly Agent Blak.
Just take a short length of Det-Cord and tie it around your loop using a prussick knot or clove hitch.
Attach the detonator to the tail and off you go.
I also assume your using a proper tamping mass?
Also, this is more appropriatly suited to Improvised Weapons so I'm moving it there.
------------------

Ok, I wasnt sure in which forum to ask this question. Actually it could be asked in any forum, but since its about where to
put the detonator I choose the Low Explosives section, although I know (really, I do) it involves no low explosives at all.
Anyway, thanks for the answers. I do think the "Q" shape with the detonator in the tail is the best solution. And the shockwave
will travel to both sides of the ring (and meeting each other at the middle). But what if I only use a ring of det cord and tie a
detonator (pointing of course in only one direction) to it? Will it initiate the cord in both directions like Anthony said? Although I
dont want to question his authority and he most probably is right, I have some difficulty in understanding how the shockwave
which is clearly pointing in one direction (or isnt it?) can initiate the cord in two directions, so also the other way round (in an
opposite direction).
With the "Q" tail its just a bit different because then the shockwave is pointed towards the ring and iniates the cord in both
directions.
I have to know it because when the ring shaped det cord is initiated in only one direction it will be blown out of shape before
the shockwave has reached the end (and beginning). Or am I also wrong in this case?
DBSP December 17th, 2001, 01:10 PM

It shouldn't matter where you put the det as long as it closely atached to the detCord. It's just like a fuse, take a lenght of
fuse and lite it on the middel. What happens? the fuse start burning in both directions. the shoch wawe from the blasting cap
will move both out the sides and the bottom, it will also be directed against the top but it shouldn't be as powerful in that
direction since there might be some obsicals like wires if your using an electrical cap.
------------------
monte
The explosion of a detonator forms a (basically) spherical shockwave.
This interacts with the det-cord, causing an initiation of the PETN (typically) that travels at about 5 miles per second along its
length.
So, any fears of "deforming" the ring is foundless since the explosion travels faster than the energy release can break the
inertia of the det-cords mass.
Taping the detonator tightly against the ring will work perfectly fine.
Although, I do have to say, that trying to make a shaped charge using just bare det-cord isn't going to do squat against any
metal thicker than a car body panel.
The monroe effect only works well when there is two opposing shockwaves colliding against each other to form a third (more
powerful) force to be directed against the target.
A simple cylinder shape (tube) is going to disperse the force in an equal manner in all directions, rather than in a directed
fashion.
For clarification of what goes where, the synthesis of an explosive (High or low) goes in the appropriate section. Anything that
uses an explosive (but is not explosive itself) goes in improvised weapons. TNT is an explosive, and a shaped charge is a
weapon that uses it. Get it?
------------------

I while back i suggested a Hoola-Hoop Style Charge(PeTN/Mg) with a TNT or ANNM non-Shape Charge in the middle(works as
boot would on a door).
The theory behind it is that The PeTN/Mg Would detonate before the ANNM. This would work as follows;
1.The Ring Detonates slicing part way though or scoring a ring into the target.
2.The ANNM or TNT then punches it through so you can enter.

That is the theory anyways never tried it though.
------------------

Ok, thanks very much for the answers, its clear to me now. The shockwave is indeed spherical and moving in every direction,
I mistakenly thought of it as a horizontal zone in a detonator and moving towards the end. Im also clear about what topic to
put where (I think) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif.
By the way, Im not gonna use det cord for this frame shaped charge. I know the effect of such a charge is minimal (mostly
because the VoD is not so high and the amount of explosive is low), it was just an example to keep it simple.
I want to use an improvised linear shaped charge (although I like the "hoola hoop" idea (easy to improvise! and perfect
disguise: if stopped by the police and asked what youre doing over there, just do the hoola hoop), its effect will be much
better than with det cord, mainly because of the higher amount of explosive and (thus) increased VoD).
And I will take NBKs word for it that when I put a detonator a the beginning of the charge and the beginning and end touch
each other (but theres no connection) the frame will not be blown out of shape (not even from the shockwave moving outward
from the detonator/starting point?) but will detonate nicely like I want it to and puncture the target (if any doubts please say
so, its a lot of responsibility http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif ).
This leaves me with one more question: is the effect of the metal jet (lets say from a brass liner)produced by the linear
shaped charge on (laminated/safety) glass the as same as on metal? Or do I have to adjust the stand off distance or use an
other liner for better effects?
[This message has been edited by Neil McCauley (edited December 19, 2001).]
Mr Cool December 19th, 2001, 02:18 PM

The jet will cut through anything, as long as it's not too thick. Just treat the safety glass as if it was metal, use the same liner
and everything. Although you probably won't get a nice neat hole on glass...
The shape of the charge will not be distorted by the shock wave, as NBK rightly says - as soon as the shock wave hits it, it
detonates and therefore has no time to move around. Even if it does move, the whole detonation will be over in a few
microseconds so it won't be able to get very far.
------------------

Wire reinforced glass would be much easier to breach than steel and you wouldn't need to adjust the stand-off distance or liner
material.
I don't think a shaped charge is ideal for glass, as that concentration (quantity of explosive Vs hole size) is excessive. I think
it would be more efficient to use the hoola hoop idea to create a larger hole with the same amount of explosive - or the same
size hole with less explosive (more economical, less noise).
Neil McCauley December 24th, 2001, 01:04 PM

The whole idea behind using a linear shaped charge is that it is THE most effective way for cutting materials. That is, you use
the least possible amount of explosive with the maximum result. A LSC is many times more efficient than a ribbon charge (I
think 2-3 times as effective at least).
And a tube charge is even less effective because a ribbon charge touches the metal (which is necessary for the shockwave to
do its work) and a tube only partial. And another thing is that a ribbon charge must be at least 12mm thick (and 36mm
wide). Although maybe slightly less might be possible.
And that a LSC will cut through anything I could have guessed myself but I want a more precise answer (please http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif ): will the penetration be as deep as with a metal target, or more/less. And will
the glass be sort of like melted and pushed out of the way by the jet as can be seen with metal, or are there other effects to
be expected?
And where can I find information about more details of LSCs: for example information about the relationship between the
thickness of the liner and amount of explosive and subquent the penetration and stand off distance. So I will be able to
calculate those figures when starting with a certain liner (so sort of metal, thickness width and angle are known). If someone
has the answer already for a brass liner with a 90 degree angle and 1 mm thick its much appreciated.

Here's a link to a very through (and technical) PDF file on linear shaped charges (with pictures). Right click on this url (
http://www.prod.sandia.gov/cgi-bin/techlib/access-control.pl/1996/962031.pdf ) and choose "Save target as". It's a 10 meg
download so it will take a while, but it will tell you just about everything you
could want about designing LSCs.
PS: This is from my December 16,1999 post in the High Explosives section of the Forum Archive PDF.
------------------
Neil McCauley December 27th, 2001, 02:52 PM

Very much appreciated, thanks. Thats the kind of information Im looking for.
Although I have some problems getting it on paper. Yesterday the printer didnt work and today I cant seem to download it
from the site. And I have difficulties finding the topic where it came from. But thats all my fault.
Noct December 27th, 2001, 11:45 PM

The idea behind shaped charges seems simple to me, you want the force from the most explosives to collide at the same
time, so if you have more surface area equal distance away it will "come together" and the forces of the two will sort of merge,
and the strength of the final force is dependent upon how much surface area is facing the target (and obvious factors, like
amount of explosives and what explosive is used).
So, if you had an ice cream cone made of TNT, and set it circular side down on a surface, the detonation would cause an
indention opposite the inside of the cone... like this:
/\ <-- explosive
== <-- surface
====\/===== <-- surface after detonation
Does that make sense? Am I correct?
... this is just my perception of what I have read, and I am mostly just trying to see if it is correct by saying what I think is
true... and if my explanation helps others understand the principle, then that is great too.
But the question remains, is this an accurate description?
Anthony December 28th, 2001, 12:06 AM

Colliding/focused shockwaves do play a part but IMO the liner does most of the work. The liner is turned inside out upon
detonation and froms a long comet like shape. The liner is apparently not molten, but since it posses more energy than is
needed to totally deform it, it behaves like a liquid. The head of the comet contains not very much material but is moving very
fast, the rest of the comet - the "slug" contains most the liner material and moves more slowly. When the head of the comet
strikes a target it exerts a pressure so great that steel will flow like a liquid. This moves the target material out of the way and
then the slug generally follows though the hole probably giving follow-through.
PYRO500 December 28th, 2001, 01:22 AM

Remember you need to initiate the charge so that the detonation waves will travel the direction you need them to go. in the
"ice cream cone" of cast TNT example you would need to initiate the device fron the tail of the cone, the liner on the shaped
charge behaves like anthony jsut described but it is important to note that the liner is right up aginst the explosive and I think
that it might transfer more energy than the gasses of a shaped charge alone. the liner under extreme pressure is likely to
acctualy be molten due to the extreme pressure against it, same thing goes for gasses, ever compress air into a tire and have
it get hot? that might have some effect but I have herd that pressure on a substance lowers the melting point, an example is
squeezing an ice cube with pliers slowly, you get water while there is little friction. an example that has been stated before is
ice skates but that is an incorrect example I have been told.
------------------
Society creates the crime, the criminal completes it.
kingspaz December 28th, 2001, 05:30 PM

i was just wondering. if you made a detonator from a small cone with a concave underside (instead of flat base), to make use
of the munroe effect, would it be more efficient than a regular detonator?...less explosive needed, maybe no need for a base
charge or insertion into the explosive to be detonated?
just a thought...

Dunno Kingspaz, might be worth investigating.
I read of a test concerning whether shaped charge liners become molten, they cut a liner into multiple pieces, glued it back
together and reinserted it into the charge. The charge was fired into water and the liner was recovered in as many pieces as it
was previously cut into. The reasoning was that if it had become molten then it should have fused back together. Dunno
whether this is correct, there seems to be a bit of a mystery surrounding some aspects of shaped charge technology.
Yikes December 29th, 2001, 06:55 AM

I read about that test too, I actually have an article about it:
Experimental Verification of the Theory of Jet Formation by Charges with Lined Conical Cavities
the Journal of Applied Physics, vol 23 nr 5, may 1952
That journal has other very interesting articles about shaped charges, too! (Maybe you could search the library of the nearest
university, sometime?)
Any material can withstand a specific pressure. When the liner of the shaped charge collapses, a dart-like 'projectile' is formed,
consisting of a very fast moving , long and thin tip (the jet), and a slower moving thicker end (the slug). The thin jet impacts
at the target material with a very high speed (some 30000 ft/sec, depending on explosive, liner material etc.). The pressure
created by that is many times higher than the pressure any material could withstand, under favorable conditions may well
exceed 250,000 atmospheres! The target material simply has no significant resistance to such high pressures. From then on,
the material of the impact zone REACTS as if it were a liquid.
But it still is a solid which, as Anthony wrote, was proved by a test cutting a liner in pieces, then firing the charge, and retrieving
the slug that was formed in pieces too. Not molten together, no.
Funny thing: lead plate offers more resistance to the jet impact, since it's molecules are heavier! More energy must be used to
move them.
Why aren't armor plates made of lead then? Well, after impact from the jet, the slug will also hit the target. And the
slug,although it moves much slower, is considerably heavier, and so will penetrate soft lead plate easily...
(Nope, too bad, lead plating is not a cheap & easy way to reinforce your house to counter Maverick attacks!)
[This message has been edited by Yikes (edited December 29, 2001).]
Microtek December 29th, 2001, 08:07 AM

Concerning the munroe-effect detonator: Gerald Hurst mentioned detonators of this kind on alt.engr.explosives. They are
used for deep-well blasting and have the hollow cavity configuration in order to be able to withstand the pressure at those
depths. The munroe-effect apparantly doesn't have any effect on initiating ability.
Before I read this, and before I learned very much about ammonium nitrate, I tried to initiate pressed AN with a 12mm hollow
charge. It didn't work ( it wouldn't have anyway; the charge was much too small ).

Since you guys seem to know a lot about the subject, you probably can tell me also about the difference between (laminated/
safety) glass and steel in regard to the behaviour when subjected to the jet produced by a linear shaped charge.
As stated earlier the jet produces a pressure on the target so high, it will be pushed aside like a liquid. And the penetration
depents on the strength of the material.
And there's another factor to be taken in account: the overall cutting capacity of a specific LSC is not only defined by the
penetration of the jet but also of the "fracturing" of the material behind the penetration zone. That also depents on the type/
strength of material. This fracturing can be as much as 50% of the overall cutting capacity.
Now, it's clear that even different metals will react differently to specific LSC, let alone a complete different material like glass.
So can someone please inform me how (safety) glass will behave compaired to steel. Is the material strength stronger/weaker
than steel. And will the penetration be deeper or not. And what about the fracturing zone?
Thanks.
mrloud December 29th, 2001, 10:28 AM

There are too many variables to be considered just to give a straight answer. I assume you are interested in cutting out a
circular hole from a plate of either steel or laminated glass. Take a plate of 20mm thick steel and a plate of 20mm thick
laminated glass. Hit each with a large sledge hammer. The glass will fracture all over but it wont fall to pieces. The steel will
emit a loud 'bong' and sit there with a smug look.
Glass is amorphous, ie, a liquid. It flows, albeit very slowly. If you force it to flow faster than it naturally wants to, it will just
snap. Just like toffee. Any sort of shaped charge should be quite effective at cutting through laminated glass. (well, more
effective than steel of the same thickness).
"Steel" is a generic term given to any iron based alloy. Different steels can have pretty much any sort properties. These
properties will even change depending on the temperature. It is impossible to say "This is how such-and-such shaped charge
will affect steel". Remember, metals are maleable. They will bend and deform before breaking. This acts as a kind of shock
absorber and will absorb some of the energy from the explosion. Steel is also dense and its crystaline structure is strong.
What it comes down to is: if I had to blast through either a steel panel or a glass panel; I'd go for the glass.

Depending on how thick the wire in the reinforced/armoured glass is, a sledgehammer blow may well just snap it all.
As Mrloud said, glass is much easier to breach than steel (with the exception of glass hard tool steel :) ) because all you need
to do is start a crack and it'll spread through the material and glass has very little "give". The spreading crack affect can be
seen if you've ever broken safety (not laminated) glass used in cars (front screen is usually laminated with the rest being
safety). If you break a small hole in the pane, you can watch and listen as the cracks slowly spread out across the entire pane,
until you can collapse in areas with the tip of your finger.
The thing about glass being a liquid - I really don't think it's true. The evidence for it being a liquid is usually that old window
panes are thicker at the bottom, as though the glass has slowly flowed down over the decades. It was found that glass
manufacturing at the time was inconsistant and panes were not of uniform thickness. As a result glaziers, logically, would fit
panes with the thickest end at the bottom.
Neil McCauley December 31st, 2001, 07:27 AM

OK, thanks for the replies. But I was hoping for a more precise answer. I know how glass cracks and doesn't bend like steel
(although: have you ever seen how laminated glass acts when subjected to a bomb blast? It looks like a balloon! and it will
return to it's original shape and not break. And what about the fact that bullets from an AK47 pierced the metal of an
armoured truck but didn't go through the laminated safety glass in the front?). But I do agree laminated glass is probably
more vulnerable than steel when subjected to a jet produced by a LSC. But I would like to know how much. And excactly in
what way.
I would also like to know if, because of the already mentioned different properties of laminated glass in comparison with steel,
a ribbon charge might be a better option (because it is easier to make and if glass is so much more vulnerable than steel,
you can probably use far less than the amount considered necessary for steel according to the demolition manuals). But
again, I want to know precise amounts, penetration depth, properties of the glass, etc. Don't tell me what I know already.
I know I ask a lot, and probably the only way to find a definite answer, is to just actually try it: find a piece of 1" thick steel
and 1" thick safety glass and see what a LSC/ribbon charge does. Unfortunately it's not that easy to do such tests, because
it's illegal and penalty's are high! So if someone has the answers or knows where to find it's much appreciated.
[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Neil McCauley ]
Anthony December 31st, 2001, 09:44 AM

The thing is, unless someone on this forum happens to have done comparison tests between glass and steel against verious
kinds of charges, you're unlikely to recieve an answer nearly as precise as you want.
There are just far too many variables to work it out theoretically, the only way is to try it. If the punishment is harsh then don't
get caught.
Ctrl_C December 31st, 2001, 05:30 PM

Anthony: I read an article in Popular Science explaining glass being liquid. They stated that while, in fact, older windows are
thicker at the bottom, it is not because glass is liquid.
They do say though that glass is a liquid but would take longer than the life of the universe to exhibit any noticible change.
also, on the subject of glass, the safety glass in cars is manufactured in a really ingenious way. the molten plate of liquid
glass is blasted on all sides with super cooled air that instantly hardens the outside edges. the inside, however, is still semi-
molten. as the inside cools, it "tries" to contract, but can't because it is in a sealed environnment. It sort of creates a vacuum
of sorts, only without air, although that is the wrong analogy. In an accident, when the outer shell of glass breaks, the inside
instantly contracts and causes minute stress fractures that, with the added force of the collision and their own weight, break
into those little pieces that scatter everywhere. sorry about the offtopicness of this. :)
Anthony December 31st, 2001, 10:26 PM

The amazing thing about safety glass is that although it has a weakness designed into it (to make it crumble as you describe)
it is much more resistant to impact than ordinary plate glass.

Here's a picture showing pro linear charges.
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Linear%20Shaped%20Charges_Copper_Cross-Sections.JPG
Note how it's just copper tubing rolled into a certain shape? I'mve been thinking that if a person used a router, they could form
two blocks of hardwood into a shape that, when a copper tube was placed between the two blocks, that the blocks, when
hammered together, would reshape the pipe into the proper cutting shape.
I've also been visiting other forums while our Forum was down. One of these was a firefighters forum that has a section to
discuss forcible entry techniques (AKA Burglary School :) ).
When they need to get through laminated windows, they first punch a hole with a pick-ax (in your case a shaped charge), then
use a sawz-all to cut out a flap that they can peel back.
Oh, and side impact bars on the latest high-end cars are made of titanium and are impervious to the saw, ax, jaws of life, and
similar. They have to use exothermic lances to cut them. Make of this tid-bit what you will. ;)
Neil McCauley January 4th, 2002, 07:17 AM

I know I asked a lot, but in thought there might be a chance that someone knows the answer.
And NBK thanks for the suggestion for how to improvise those copper sheathed linear cutting charges. The ones in the picture
are very effective. The ones with just as less as 21 gram/m will cut through 6mm of mild steel.
And about the "forcible entry techniques": I don't see myself sawing out a laminated glass window. It probably goes very
quickly with the right kind of saw. I think I saw it once and it was done in a few seconds. But I like it more when it's done in
milliseconds ;) .
And those firemen have also another way to gain entry or make holes in roofs/walls: they use a "flexible cutting charge".
That's a flexible linear shaped charge put in a polyethylene frame (as could be seen in your file "breaching charges"). And
that flexible linear shaped charge is known as BLADE and consist only of a piece of copper with a 90 angle on which a layer of
RDX-based explosive is put.
Now this would be rather easy to improvise. The only disadvantage is this type of LSC is not as effective. For example, BLADE
100 containing 100 gram of DEMEX per meter will cut through 6mm of mild steel. That's 5 times less effective as those LSC's
in the picture.
I wonder why it's not as effective. One would assume it's because of the lack of confinement since they both use a copper liner
and RDX as explosive. But I think it's not that simple (what's a sheet of copper going to add to the effect when you're using
such an explosive as RDX anyway?). I read the article of "precision linear shaped charge analysis" and Table 1 clearly shows
that when you make a LSC, a variation of any constant will have an effect and there are no rules to follow. It's impossible to
say: when you use a thicker liner, the Stand Off Distance will be higher/lower and the penetration will be deeper/shallower.
Every LSC has different properties and different effects. It seems impossible to predict the effect if you change the angle or
the thickness of the liner or the amount of explosive. So a test is indeed the only way to get answers to all my questions. But
I was wondering if there's not someone who could do it for me. That way I won't get caught and get to know what I need to
know ;) .
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Neil McCauley ]

Even if someone here DID a test, it still wouldn't answer your question because there's as many different types of laminated
glass as there is steel (almost).
Without a sheet of the EXACT same glass, any test would be meaningless.
Also, why is it that you're trying to cut glass for? I don't expect an exact description of your "heist" but the purpsoe may be
served better by some other means if the objective is suitable.
The flexible charge may be less effective because, in order to be flexible, the copper isn't as dense/hard as the shown LSCs.
And confinement is ALWAYS helpful, regardless of the explosives power.
Standoff is an important factor too. The LSCs are usually attached to the target with plastic stand-offs. A flexible charge
probably doesn't have that.
It may even be that BLADE is deliberatly underpowered because of its intended application as a rescue tool for fireman, and
not military/demolitions.
Also, the RDX is more diluted in a flexibel PBX configuration than straight cast in the more convential LSC types. This will have
a significant impact on d/v. And even a few hundred m/s decrease in VOD can cut performance in half.

I don't agree such a test would be useless, it would at least give an indication of how laminated glass reacts to a LSC. And I
don't expect someone to do such a test, although the laws in some countries are less harsh and the possibilities to use and
test explosives are much better, and performing such a test wouldn't be such a problem (wish I was living in America ;) ).
And BLADE is not deliberately less powerfull, it's used by the military and demolition industry as well. And the Stand Off is build
in: the explosive and liner is surrounded by some low density foam. A nice site with pictures and data about LSC's you can find
if you search for "BLADE" and "Schneidladungen".
The lower performance of BLADE compaired to other commercial LSC's is probably, like you say, the slightly different explosive
used (with different density and VoD) and a copper liner which is flexible (probably by using (a layer of) thin parts of liner that
can move indepently from each other).

It would have helped if you'd posted a picture of it in the first place.
<center>http://www.spreng.de/luzern/img15.jpg</center>
Anyways, I know the reason for the low performance...it's the liner.
It's not actually solid metallic copper, but rather a flexible polymer composition doped with copper powder.
These powdered metal liners are mentioned in US patents for similar purposes. And the lack of "solidity" means lower density,
less even jet formation, etc.
But it does have the neatness of being wrapable. I could imagine wrapping one around a big metal light post and blowing it as
you zoom past, leaving the piggies to eat it when it crashes to the street. :)

Yes, pictures are better than a thousand words, but I'm just not such a genius with computers. And are you sure about that
polymer liner because I thought it would be pieces of copper liner moving indepently like described in US patent 2,543,057
"elongated tubular charge" (again no pictures sorry). But that's a very old patent and probably an old method so probably
nowadays they use those polymers but do you have some patents that can prove you're right? ;) .
And still my most important question remains what the effect of a LSC on laminated glass is. I think I read somewhere that a
LSC penetrated a piece off acrylic glass about just as much as steel (but I can't remember where and when I read it and if I'm
right). But assuming I am: one would expect those charges would cut through plastics like cutting through air but apparently
not. And since laminated glass is nothing else than pieces of glass with layers of polymer/plastics in between, there's no
reason to believe that a LSC will cut laminated glass easier than steel. Also when you consider the facts I mentioned earlier
(laminated glass is very(!) flexible, and can absorb a lot of energy)
So any information on this subject is more than welcome.

Page 14 (I believe)(img13.jpg) of the powerpoint presentation on the german URL you cited says:
"plastifizierter kupferliner"
Which, referring to the above picture, we know that kupferliner is the copper liner.
And it's not unreasonable to assume that plastifizierter means "plasticized" or "flexible plastic". Thus my statement.
And it's not my job to search out details for people. Go to <a href="http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html"
target="_blank">http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html</a> and look for it yourself. It's there 'cause I've seen it.
Also, you're getting dangerously close to beating a dead horse with the glass vs. metal question. See post about ATM cash
machines in misc section to see a similarly persistant poster and the results.
We can assume (though perhaps incorrectly) that glass is as vulnerable to an LSC as a similiar thickness of metal. The only
way to know for sure is to test it out yourself.
If it's life or death that the glass be penetrated, use a massively overpowered LSC that could cut a tank in half.
RTPB: "Victory through superior firepower!".
:)
And the images are easy to do, that's why we now have a button in the "Instant UBB Code" list (see below your posting
window) that you can just paste the pictures URL into. Or click the edit button on any post with pictures in it to see how it's
done. Don't be lazy, learn how, it'll come in handy in the future.
Neil McCauley January 6th, 2002, 04:37 PM

OK, no reason to get irritated. Youre right about the "plastifizierter Kupferliner". It means plasticized copper liner and I did
actually see it but gave a different meaning to it, because I was not familiar with copper metal bonded in a polymer.
And you dont have to do a search for me, I just thought you might have the patent numbers at hand.
But I can find it myself. And I will. Just like I will find an aswer to the most important question myself, as no one seems to
know the answer.
(Ooh, I wished I could just experiment for a couple of days without the danger of getting caught, just go out there and try the
different explosives and targets...... Anyone doing it for me will get 10% of the profit, promise.... ;) .
Since I cannot ask the same question again heres a different one: since a ribbon charge might be a even a better (or just as
good) choice for blasting laminated glass, I was wondering about the Genius system: it uses a 20 gram det cord placed in
between two tubes filled with water and the whole construction is hold together by some paper container. The advantage of this
system is obviously that theres no shrapnel: water (and paper) is used as a tamper mass. And its used for blasting out
doors.
Would this kind of explosive be effective for blasting laminated security glass? Lets say I would use a tube filled with 100-200
grams per meter of explosive instead of the 20 gram det cord, what would the effect be? (any estament for steel, glass is
appreciated). I know normally metal/steel doors are not opened with det cord (only used for wooden doors because of its low
(difuse) power) but with (F)LSCs but maybe with the tamping and increased amount of explosive its possible (as it actually
could be considered a tamped ribbon charge).
And what the hell is a UBB code? Let alone an instant UBB code. And what the fuck is URL? ;)

I would be helpful if you could give more details about the target besides it being made of laminated glass. Roughly how
thick? What's the application (car windscreen or fire resistance etc), is it intended to ward off attack? (windows in rooms/
containers/vehicles containing things of high value, simply to resist vandalism, or just strong enough for the application).
Also, acrylic is not glass. It's still very brittle but is more flexible than glass, softer too.
Why can't you conduct any tests? We all live under oppressive, non understanding governments and societies but find a way.

Yes, the country you live in doesn't make squat difference in the legality or severity of the "crime" of explosives since you
obviously don't have a license for it. So regardless of where you live, if you don't have the governments approval, it's your ass
if you get caught.
You'll also notice we have people here from britan, germany, australia, france, and other countries not well known for there
tolerance for guns and bombs.
But we do it anyways.
And if you're too scared to test things in some remote quarry or forest, how will you suddenly get the nuts to do it in an
(implied) heist when there's likely to be people around to hear it and call the cops?
Since I cannot ask the same question again heres a different one: .....Would this kind of explosive be effective for blasting
laminated security glass?
:mad:
SAME FUCKING QUESTION, DIFFERENT PHRASING!
Don't be a smart-ass. I delete smart-asses.
Topic closed.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > U PGRADE SHUTDOW N!!!
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megalomania D e c e m ber 26th, 2001, 09:45 PM

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a>
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Bazooka vs. RPG
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10fingers July 14th, 2001, 07:46 PM

*
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]
DarkAngel July 14th, 2001, 08:18 PM

I ones did a simulation shot of a
shoulder rocket.I don't know the name
but you need to point at the target with
the weapon till impact because it can control the rocket,it whas pretty cool
But i think it shoot's more comfortable

with a weapon without a heavy backblast.
------------------
arkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www .run.to/section1)
cutefix July 15th, 2001, 12:12 AM

I have seen an actual firing of an RPG-7(test firing).I still see a backblast from it.But maybe not as extensive as the Bazooka.There has been a documented SAS report about
IRA terrorist firing an RPG inside a vehicle,that happened to carry a lot of explosives inside.I think the target was a British officer in another car.What happened was that the
backblast ignited the explosives blowing the van and the terrorist inside,but it failed to hit the intended target.
SMAG 12B/E5 July 15th, 2001, 01:42 AM

The "Bazooka", 2.75 in and later the 3.5 in rockets, are OK. The RPG-7 is excellent also. The Bazooka rockets must be designed to burn all propellent before leaving th launcher.
I am not really sure that you really want to attempt the RPG-7. It is a complecated combination of recoiless and rocket munition.
You might want to try the RPG-2 or PANZERFAUST varaition. It is much simplier, more reliable and less costly.
dmitrieff August 16th, 2001, 04:33 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 10fingers:
[B]*
Rocket Propulsion
The United States 2.36 inch Bazooka M9A1 w as perhaps the m ost fam ous early rocket launcher; it was the forerunner of the 3.5 inch rocket launcher M20 (sometim es called the Super
Bazooka ) w hic h was used in Western Block arm ies. The launcher tube has two m ain purposes. It guides the projectile on to the correct line and it protects the firer. A rocket must all be
burnt before it emerges from its tube (All Burnt On Launch = ABOL); its efflux will burn the firer if it is not. This necessitates long, often unw ieldy tubes. To improve their
portability, they have been hinged or separated into two parts which could the be interlocked for use.
When a rocket is launched, the rocket and its casing must be accelerated away in addition to the warhead. If a high muzzle velocity were demanded then the launcher would be
very long and the rocket w ould be large and heavy. On the whole, as a consequence, rocket launchers tend to have a low muzzle velocity and a restricted effective range. In
the case of the 3.5 inch Super Bazooka, the effective fighting range w as some 110 m. Modern systems such as the British LAW 80 have improved on this; battle ranges for
rocket launched LAW will probably be 300 to 400 meters in the future, using a tw o stage rocket.
Fortunately a rocket in an open-ended tube does not build up such high pressure as a recoilless w eapon. Consequently there is no need for it to be strong and heavy. The
resultant lightweight tube has given birth to one shot disposable launchers.
Recoilless Propulsion
Increased range can be achieved by the use of a recoilless launcher. In case of the recoilless principle the propellant provides its trust in one short blast as a normal gun. There is
no danger for the firer from the efflux at the muzzle and only the mass of the warhead need be accelerated away. There is a gain, not only of range, but also because the
launcher can be shorter. A 3.5 inch rocket launcher has a length of 1549 mm (front tube; 768mm and rear tube 803 mm) and the Swedish 84mm Carl Gustav recoilless launcher
a length of 1130 mm.
The modern Carl Gustav M3 has a weight of 9 kg compared with the 5.5 kg of the rocket launcher. Its effective range is 400 meters or more and this has been extended to 700
m by the incorporation of small rocket motors, which give extra in-flight trust. However, at such ranges the sighting becomes complicated for a shoulder launched w eapon and
guidance becomes desirable.
Adoption of Propulsive Methods
The Russian RPG-7v is an interesting approach to decrease the w eight (7kg) and length (990mm) of the launcher whilst retaining lethality and range (300 to 500 meters). The
propellant, which is composed of two parts fits into the launcher. An initial charge launches the rocket clear (11 m) of the launcher and firer before a rocket ignites and provides
the remainder of the trust. This design results in a light launcher w hilst maintaining a large and lethal warhead. On the other hand the accuracy is suspect because the rocket
may well ignite w hilst the projectile is yawing and will then be driven off line.
I hope that the above is helpfull.
EP August 16th, 2001, 02:03 PM

Do modern Bazookas/RPGs use the All Burnt (propellant) On Lauch method? I read that Stinger SAMs have a compressed nitrogen charge that launches it from the tube and the
main propellant then ignites a safe distance from the firer. Could this also be true for modern bazookas/rpgs? It seems this would make a lot of sense for improving range and
accuracy.
10fingers August 17th, 2001, 12:18 AM

This is interesting! I have a book titled "The Poor Mans RPG", written by George Dmitrieff. Good book.

Although it looked like the ABOL type rocket launchers, like the M20 3.5 inch Rocket Launcher and the M-72 66 mm LAW, were becoming obsolete and would be replaced by
recoilless launchers (AT-4 / M136) or recoilless launchers w ith rocket assisted grenades, a new trend in rocket launchers seemed to have emerged over the last 10 to 15 years.
While most Western Block countries replaced the old M-72 66 mm LAW, partly due its relative ineffectiveness against modern armor, the Russian copy of this weapon, the RPG-
18, saw extensive use in both Afghanistan and Cheznia in recent years.
Modern LAWS design makes use of a launcher tube, on the rear of which fits the projectile in its container: It doubles as a disposable extension to the launcher. The container
takes majority of the force of the propellant. The main tube takes only a little of it and, although it is lightweight, can withstand up to a hundred launchings. This system has the
advantage of a good propulsive trust combined w ith a light launcher.
The United States, and many of its NATO allies, not only prefer self-contained rockets, they specify it. The idea is to keep the rocket ammunition factory-fresh until the moment
it leaves the tube. Damage to unpackeged rockets is a consideration, and there are times when Soviet RPG rockets are bent, dented, or otherw ise made unusable by field carry.
If a rocket is shipped to the battlefield and fired from its own sealed tube, the cost of the disposable tube are justified by its dual role.
Examples of these systems are the French 89-mm LRAC anti-tank rocket launcher and SEP DARD 120 close anti-armor w eapon. But also the Israeli B-300 light ant-armor
weapon and the United States 83 mm SMAW (Shoulder-launched Multi-purpose Assault Weapon) and the South African XXXX. (forgot the name http://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/redface.gif)
The use of a disposable container does however not have to mean that the w eapon uses the ABOL system. The SEP DARD uses a double-based cordite propellant charge to
launch the projectile. A splitting breach block of compressed plastic flakes is ejected to the rear to balance the recoil forces. The manufacturer claims that the recoil is at a
minimum w ith a noise level less than 180 dB.
The Belgium firm Mecar produced a rocket with a separate booster rocket for the 3.5 rocket launcher. This tw o-stage system, together w ith the improved w arhead, enhanced
the performance of the 3.5 inch Rocket Launcher close to the standard of modern rocket systems and gave the old 3.5 inch Rocket Launcher a much-needed new lease of life.
Due to the new round the launcher can also be shorter The length of the Mecar RL-83 Blincide Launcher (a mechanically firing copy of the 3.5 inch M20) was reduced from 1700
mm to 1200 mm. How ever the 3.5 inch Rocket Launcher is now only used by some third world countries.
Im not sure if the Stinger SAM uses a compressed nitrogen charge to launch it from its tube. The manufacturer only states that the system uses a solid propellant dual-trust rocket motor
with a separate boost motor. It is however very likely that it does. Since the rocket is shot upwards the back of the relative long launcher (1524 mm) is close to the ground. A
recoilless system or ABOL system needs room for the emerging high-speed gases to escape; the danger zone of a M72 66mm launcher is 8 to 25 meters. In Afghanistan the
mudjahideen fighters would clime up trees and tie themselves to the tree in order to fire their RPG-7 at Russian helicopters. Modern Anti Tank Guided Weapons (ATGW) use gas
generators to launch the guided missiles and I do not know if they are used in shoulder fired LAWS. I guess that these systems use a very low muzzle velocity since the guidance
system will correct the line of fire.
The Poor Man s RPG is one of the best books on the subject of improvised rocket launchers . (No relation to the author) I dislike the just stick a model rocket in a tube solution as
provided by people like Robert Wells in his book The Anarchist Handbook They totally ignore the interesting design aspects of this kind of weapon.
Other good how-to-books are; Improvised Home-Build Recoilless Launchers by F. DeMarco, Bazooka; How to Build Your Ow n by Anthony Lewis, LAW & Disorder Rearming the
66mm Light Anti-Tank Weapon by Fred Brown and Improvised Rifle Grenades by Pow der Burns. All published by Paladin Press before the Hit Man case censorship.
I would be very interested to learn of other good titles on this subject or if anyone has a good idea for building an improvised version of the RPG-7v.

If the homemade rocket were ignited after it left the barell, then this would add complexity, and therefore there would be an increased chance of failure.
Estes rocket motors lack the thrust nessacary for horizontal takeoff, if they are ignited inside an enclosed barell however, there is a pressure buildup that launches the rocket like
a bullet.
A pictures worth a thousand w ords...

http://ww w.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/m1.jpg
The homemade rocket tube should obviously be DOM, or other seamless pipe if using steel, Aluminum w ould be much cheaper, and is seamless, PVC/ABS w ould maybe work for
one shot, they're certainly cheaper than metal, but using it more than once is asking for trouble, I personally wouldnt risk using plastics.
Notice the electrical connections on the bottom of the rocket? This system is simple and could be improvised easilly, the battery pack/safety/fire sw itch-circuit could have a
female electrical connector, and all the rockets could have Male electrical connectors, this would make loading alot simpler, and faster.
As already mentioned, the backblast from the exiting rocket had a tendency to melt off the shooters face.
http://ww w.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/m1a1.jpg
"...How ever the protective mesh wire did not prove very useful and therefore was rarely used by the troops. Instead, a solid metal funnel at the muzzle was to reduce the
backblast."
This safety feature could be improvised by using a square sheet of heat-resistant plexi-glass (so you can still sight), or in a pinch, a metal funnel could be w elded or strongly
secured to the muzzle.
The M1, and M1A1 bazooka both use no breeches, or hatches, the rocket is simply loaded into the back of the weapon and fired, as mentioned before, Estes rocket motors are
not capable of this, a hatch, or breech is needed for a pressure buildup, this breech could be a simple solid (metal!) rod that is secured w ith a removable bolt, like on this page:
http://ww w.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/drainpipe_cannon.htm
DO NOT attempt anyhing mentioned in this post! it is submitted for entertainment, and discussion purposes only! serious injury could result!
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited August 18, 2001).]
10fingers August 18th, 2001, 11:44 PM

The reason I started this topic a while back w as to discuss which type of shoulder fired rocket would be the easiest to improvise.
The device that I would like to build would have good range and accuracy, be relatively easy to build with commonly available materials. It would be used for battle
reenactments and would not have an explosive warhead.
In the book "poor mans rpg" it does not give details on what type of propellant is used in the RPG. The bazooka uses a modified double based propellant. My guess is that the
rpg propellant would be easier to fabricate than the bazooka propellant. In the bazooka w here all the propellant burns very rapidly I would think that the composition is very
critical. Also the dimensions for the rocket motor w ould need to be exact. An error in this area may cause the rocket motor to explode.
In the RPG where the propellant burn rate is much slower I think it w ould be a little more forgiving. There are probably several propellant formulas that could be used in this
system. The downside is that the RPG uses a two stage system, ejection followed by the propulsion stage. The entire rocket seems to require more parts and is inherently less
accurate than the bazooka.
A driveshaft from a vehicle may w ork for the launch tube of a bazooka system. I found one that is made of aluminum alloy, is 3 inches in diameter, it is quite strong and light.

I guess that for a reenactment type of launcher the below -described method is worth considering.
I have read that the Estes D-12-0 model rocket engine can be modified by carefully drilling a hole through the propellant of the engine centrally from the nozzle opening to the
other end with a 1/8 inch-diameter drill bit. This will give the engine a higher initial trust. (Note: do not use high-speed electrical drill!)
A number of these rocket engines can be glued together by removing the clay nozzle and cut them down so only the cardboard container w ith the propellant is left and then glue them
together w ith wood-glue. If some of the paper of the cardboard casing is removed four or five of these engines can be stuck into a lightweight 1-inch plastic pipe. This seems quite an
easy way to build a simple but powerful engine for lightweight rockets. The m aximum lifting weight of a D-12-0 seem s to be around 400 gram and Im not sure if this method w ill
increase the lifting power dramatically.
The tw o stage problem could be solved by using the delay pellet of an emergency flare as shot from blank-firing pistols. These flares tend to be activated after aprox. 10m of flight. A
commercially manufactured delay pellet seems the w ay to go because of safety concerns and shot by shot accuracy. A plug with the delay pellet can be inserted into the nozzle of the
rocket engine and as soon as the rocket engine fires the plug will be pushed out of the nozzle. The plug w ould also protect the rocket and the rocket engine from the explosion of the
propellant in the launcher. Im not sure if it will be dangerous for the firer if the plug is shot backwards by the rocket motor. Probably depends on the w eight and design of the plug.
DO NOT attempt anyhing mentioned in this post! it is submitted for entertainment, and discussion purposes only! serious injury could result!

Estes info.
http://ww w.estesrockets.com/rocketry101/impulse.gif
http://ww w.estesrockets.com/rocketry101/howhigh.gif
Color code: Provides at a glance the specific application of the engine:
"Green Single Stage

Purple Upper Stage (on Multi-Staged Rockets )
Red Booster Stage
Black Plugged for special applications"
http://ww w.estesrockets.com/rocketry101/enginefacts.cfm
If for some reason you cant see the pics, I sw iped them from this page.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited August 19, 2001).]
Victim August 19th, 2001, 06:52 PM

I can post some picture's of the Law90 Bazooka and the RPG 7 if anyone wants me too, also does anyone have any information on the RPG 22?
Remember a w hile ago when the MI6 got attacked by the supposed Real IRA, well at first the people investigating, thought that the attack was done with a RPG 22, but later
found it out to be a 66mm "one shot pot" anti tank rocket. Well, getting to the point, does anyone have any picture's, spec's, or anything on the RPG 22, coz I can't find any
decent information.
------------------
dmitrieff August 20th, 2001, 01:37 PM
RPG-22
A scaled-up version of the RPG-18, the RPG-22 has improved performance and was introduced in 1985. It is the current issue disposable Russian LAW. Usually issued one per
squad. The RPG-22 has an 8-yard backblast (4d6 flame damage).
The RPG-22 is a short-range, tube-launched, disposable, infantry antitank rocket launcher, similar to the US LAW system. The lightw eight, collapsible launch tube consists of tw o
parts: the outer tube made of fiberglass and a sliding inner tube made of aluminum. The inner tube extends 10 centimeters to the front of the outer tube in firing position.
It fires a 73-mm fin-stabilized rocket w ith an effective range of 250 meters and a HEAT w arhead capable of penetrating approximately 390 millimeters of armor. The trigger and
the pop-up rear peep sight are in the middle of the extended tube. The pop-up front sight is at the forw ard end of the outer tube. The front sight is calibrated for ranges of 50,
150, and 250 meters.
SawedOff8gaugeman August 20th, 2001, 03:36 PM

 Originally posted by dmitrieff:
RPG-22
A scaled-up version of the RPG-18, the RPG-22 has improved performance and was introduced in 1985. It is the current issue disposable Russian LAW. Usually issued one per
squad. The RPG-22 has an 8-yard backblast (4d6 flame damage).
The RPG-22 is a short-range, tube-launched, disposable, infantry antitank rocket launcher, similar to the US LAW system. The lightw eight, collapsible launch tube consists of tw o
parts: the outer tube made of fiberglass and a sliding inner tube made of aluminum. The inner tube extends 10 centimeters to the front of the outer tube in firing position.
It fires a 73-mm fin-stabilized rocket w ith an effective range of 250 meters and a HEAT w arhead capable of penetrating approximately 390 millimeters of armor. The trigger and
the pop-up rear peep sight are in the middle of the extended tube. The pop-up front sight is at the forw ard end of the outer tube. The front sight is calibrated for ranges of 50,
150, and 250 meters. 
Ripped from some RPG(w ell, ...) rules?? Yep:
 Originally posted by dmitrieff:

(4d6 flame damage)
ROFLOL!!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
nbk2000 August 20th, 2001, 04:37 PM

There is an RPG 26 (or 27) that's the russkie equivilant of the US LAWW.
Speaking of RPG, I found a video clip of one blowing up a stack of 55 gallon drums.
Go to http://www .rbs.ru/exhibition/UralExpoArms/2000/video/rpg.mpg
------------------
"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
EP August 21st, 2001, 02:33 AM

I have made a rocket launcher with Estes D engines. I have only tested it once, but here is w hat I used and have learned. The tube is a 5 foot lenght of ABS pipe w ith an
electrical ignition system and a metal lid taped over the back end. The rocket was just a simple tube w/nosecone and the fins were made of cut playing cards and bent to make
the rocket spiral. I did not put a payload in as it w as the first test. When I launched it, I w ore a full face sheild, but w as surprised at how little smoke/flame/whatever was shot
back, the tube took the w orst of it before it shot out. Im not sure how far it went, but it w ent a good distance and fairly straight also, probably in part because of the spin. The
tube had surprisingly little damage, but the w ires to the igniter w ere a bit fried.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > R aketen Sprenggranate
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This weapon entered service in mid-19 44 with patrol craft and was later fitted to larger units. Used a single-barrel projector.
Several different kind s of shells were produced, including HE, sm oke and wire cable. Each HE rocket had the destructive power
of an 8.8 cm AA shell.
The wire cable version was sim ilar to the British UP AA rocket and used parachutes connected to 10 0 m (330 feet) of cable. It is
not known if these weapons ever shot down an attacking plane.
It is interesting to note that the parachute version of this weapon was similar to the ineffective British UP AA rockets. That
weapon was withdrawn from service following the loss of HMS Hood.
This is the only information I have apart from the picture, but th e picture is in German (I belive)
<a href="http://www.boom spe ed.com/eliteforum /86m m .jpg" target="_blank">Raketen Sprenggranate 86m m</a> This is the
picture, if anyone cou ld provid e any more inform ation on this could you please tell me what kind of fusing system it had?
A n d a n y p o s s i b l e i m p rovisations/im p r o v e m e n t s ?
qube S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2002, 03:03 PM

The im age link doesnt appear to be working for me, can you host it somewhere else? The n i can see it and suggest
im p r o v m e n t s .
Eliteforum S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2002, 03:11 PM

Link should work now, I deleted it off the host server thing by accident when I was cleaning it up.
Machiavelli S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2002, 05:56 PM

Hm m, just wondering, why do you think the picture is in German? Words like shell, cap, percussion fuse and spacer sound
awfully English to m e. But do you have a larger version?
Eliteforum S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2002, 06:27 PM

Sadly, this is the only picture I can find that is showing details. <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Arkangel S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2002, 06:44 PM

Interesting d esign. To me it looks like the rock e t m o t o r h a s 6 s e p e r a t e n o z z l e s , f r o m a single fuel grain. T his would be an
excellent way to im part spin sabilisatio n, far m ore so than the stinger types, since all nozzles provide thrust and spin.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Seriously cool gun
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Charlie Workman July 29th, 20 02, 03:4 0 AM

Ran across this one and had to share it with you guys-
<a href="http://www.swivelmachine.com" target="_blank">www.swivelm achine.com </a>
W hat they have done i s a d a p t e d a . 2 2 rifle to fire 16" a lum inum crossbow bolts. They claim a velocity of over 450 fps. and an
accu racy of 1 " at 50 yards. I d id an overview check of th eir patents, but they seem to only cover the airpowered version. From
what I've seen it seem s to be a m odified form of spigot launche r. They replace the stock barrel with one that will cham ber
c o m m on industrial blanks, but not bulleted cartridges. The bore is choked down increase the velocity of the gas flow. This is
a l s o n e c e s s a ry, as the OD of the spigot barrel m ust fit into the hollw shaft of an alum inum arrow. I don't know what this is.
There is an outer tube, .920 OD, ID unknown, which covers the entire arrow. You apparently have to roll the fins to fit them in.
Noise level is said to be half of a conventional rim fire. They provide barrels for the Ruger 10/22 and 77/22. This m a k e s m e
wonder how or if the 10/22 action rem ains closed with such an in crease in back pressure. It has potential for experim entation,
or at least just fucking around . I've got a couple of Rom anian M1969 trainers that could be obvious candidates. Any thoughts?
PYRO500 July 29th, 20 02, 04:1 0 AM

W hile I like the idea of a crossbow arrow flying through the air at those speeds while being in an accurate rifle configuration, I
like the idea that they travel less than sonicc speed and while doing alot of dama g e a l s o a r e s u b s o n i c a n d n o t a s l o u d .
I searched the entire page and I found that one of the pages had these four patents on the bottom :
#4,890,597 #5,086,7 49 #2,218,786 #1,332, 686
<sm all>[ July 29, 2002, 03:11 AM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 5 0 0 ] < / s m all>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Tri-Grenade
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nbk2000 August 2nd, 2002, 08:12 PM

I've been studying up on some variations on grenade designs that I've seen on various military, RPG, and patent sites.
Skipping the more exotic designs, I've come to think that simply changing the shape of the grenade would greatly increase its
effectiveness.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Tri-Grenade.gif" alt=" - " />
The black four sided equilateral triangle in the center is the actual explosive charge, with the rounded green being the plastic
embedded fragmentation shell.
The reasoning behind the pyramid shape is that, unlike conventional grenades which are egg shaped and thusly waste about
80% of their fragments into the air or ground, a triangular pyramid will ALWAYS have three of its four sides (75%) facing
upwards and outwards...towards the enemy.
(look at picture with the bottom being the ground)
Because of the upward projection, the prone thrower (you) would be underneath the path of the majority of the fragments,
while the standing (or kneeling enemy) near the grenade would catch the majority of them.
Also, because the majority of us would be using these in city fighting, rather than in a wilderness setting, it makes sense to
optimize the weapon for the streets. With four (essentialy) flat sides, this grenade isn't going to roll past your enemy and
down the storm drain.
And, because of the shape, if it lands in front of him, it'll bounce once or twice in random directions, making it impossible to
catch or dodge if they see it coming.
(Looking down at grenade from above)
With a typical modern grenade using prefragmented bodies, there's a thousand+ fragments embedded in the plastic body. If
the enemy is in line with one of the three faces (likely) of the tri-grenade, than he's looking at 1/4th of 1,000 fragments, or
250 fragments.
Unfortunately, there is a small flaw...the corners. If the enemy is in line with a corner, he's not to likely to catch a frag. A
cylinder, having no corners, would obviate this. And there is a grenade design patent that does just that.
However, as anyone who's ever thrown an empty can knows, it's a near miracle if it lands upright on one end and stays that
way. 99.9999% of the time a cylinder will land on its side. This is prevented (in the patent) by the use of spring loaded legs to
upright it. But this is complicating things.
By using the geometry of the triangular grenade body, you get the same benefits, only without the hassle. Besides which, you
wouldn't want to be thought of as cheap and only give ONE grenade, when you can show you care and give TWO, right? :D
The probability of the enemy avoiding death/injury by being in the blind spot of two trigrenades is nil.
Fallout85 August 2nd, 2002, 08:25 PM

Hmm. Good idea! I never really thougth about how ineffective the convetional design is. Wouldn't making a cone shape
alleviate the corner problem? It would still, most likely, land base down. I may have to test this with some wooden mock-ups.
Yi August 2nd, 2002, 08:36 PM

Very nice. I think a cone would most is just at likely to land on its side as it is on its base.
What about the firing/fuse mechanism? any extraneous lumps would alter the shape. Perhaps a tube leading to a detonator in
the center with a fuse train and percussion cap to initiate and a simple spring loaded hammer with a pull pin on the
surface...when the pin is pulled the hammer would pull inside the pyramid leaving only a small area of casing without
fragmentation material.
Fallout85 August 2nd, 2002, 08:43 PM

Yup, they all landed on they're sides. It would have to either be very "squatty" or weighted at the bottom. But with the
"squatty" cone you would have a bad "base-to-side-ratio" and lose about half of the energy to the ground. With the weighted
one it might land on uneven terrain and still not go base down. Yes the triangle design is probably best.
0EZ0 August 2nd, 2002, 09:32 PM

Helvetica"> However, as anyone who's ever thrown an empty can knows, it's a near miracle if it lands upright on one end and
stays that way. 99.9999% of the time a cylinder will land on its side. This is prevented (in the patent) by the use of spring
loaded legs to upright it. But this is complicating things.
<hr /></blockquote>No need for spring loaded legs.
Make an eliptical Dome end on one end of the cylinder, and fill with cast lead or anything that will end up heavier than the
explosive charge together with it's section of pipe/cylinder. When thrown, if the wieght is heavy enough, it will have a *toy-
clown* effect and bob back up on it's weighted dome end. If it is too unstable when it lands and bobs too much, try making a
flat section on the middle of the dome with a hammer or some other tool. This shold bob less and find the flat section which it
can sit on, thus making the time to stabilise a bit less.
*Does anyone know those stupid clown toys that just bob back up again when they are pushed over? Well that is what I was
referring to.
If you want to get tricky and go 'ERASER' style <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ,try making an ejection
charge that would propell the actual genade charge into the air a few feet for a full target hit, while leaving behind the heavy
base weight behind. But i think thats getting a bit carried away.
Well anyways, worth a thought.
On another note, a pyramid shaped grenade would probably be better for improvising, while getting quite good results. With a
cylindrical charge, things could get tricky. So good design NBK!
FarbrorBosse August 2nd, 2002, 10:59 PM

When fighting in a city cleaning rooms there is not much time.
You throw in a grenade, wait < 3 seconds for the KABOOM then you rush into the room following a wall, low positions directly
after detonation with your group shoulder to shoulder and spray the room with 5.56 or 7.62 from one corner to the other to
remove any targets still not dead cause they have kept away from the blast and not died instantly by the stress of the
detonation or metal.
I would not trust a "triangle" grenade cause of some reasons, the main one is there will be very little effect in low corners,
even less then with a normal "egg" shaped grenade. People tend to keep low positions when they suspect someone will
attack/kill them and if you see a grenade you will most likely hug the ground as far away from it as possible.
A standard grenade will place the metal pieces in a more spread out and regular pattern, and the new egg shaped ones kills
even better now with less HE and better construction giving better killing rate and less chance of getting a brick wall over you
when you throw it in, the beauty of science...
Whitey August 3rd, 2002, 12:04 AM

Very creative idea.
How big would it be? If it is to big it would be difficult to carry on the load bearing equiptment or load bearing vest. That's the
problem with stick grenades, you can throw them farther but their isn't many easy ways to carry them where you can get to
them fast other than tucking them in your belt. One of the main reasons grenades are shaped like eggs or circular is because
we grow up throwing things with a similiar shape (baseballs). So an American hand (is that different to any other hand?)is used
to throwing something that shape long distances. And long distance are important with grenades since the the chances of
getting hurt decrease with the increase in distance. As is grenades can still produce casualties at the ranges an average man
can throw one. That is why soldiers are trained to always throw from cover or from the prone position.
Where would you place the fuze assembley? The mechanism should be placed so that the hand naturally has a firm grip on
the spoon.
As far as city fighting goes fragmentation is not always a good thing. Modern buildings use lots of thin walls made of
sheetrock, that wouldn't stop grenade fragments. What the military often does is use offensive (concussion) grenades instead
of defensive (fragmentation) grenades. Offensive grenades are meant to be used against troops occupying enclosed spaces
(rooms, bunkers, fox holes). Since the explosion is confined it is much more effective than it would be in the open.
Use of this type of casing might be very useful in a "bouncing betty" type anti personel mine or perhaps in a ground bursting
mine. This "tri grenade" idea could prove very interesting.
[ August 03, 2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
MrSamosa August 3rd, 2002, 12:39 AM

One thing that bugs me about this design is how aerodynamic the pyramid shape is... It's not very stable in the air, which will
lead to shorter throws. Also, the pyramid shape seems like it would be more susceptible to windage than the ordinary egg
shaped design. BUT, if you're not very concerned about distances, this is definately the way to go...good thinking NBK.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2002, 06:32 AM

Here's the problem with the standard egg grenade designs:
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Grenade-percentages.gif" alt=" - " />
Unless the enemy at a 90 degree angle to the grenade body when it explodes, he's only risking 5% of the total frag count.
Also, there's no directional control as to where the frags go since it essentially a sphere. You're just as likely to get hit as the
enemy is.
Whereas, with the faces of the grenade pointing upwards:
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Thrower-Safety.gif" alt=" - " />
the majority of the fragments go far over your head. The greater the distance you are from the explosion, the greater the
distance over your head the fragments are.
The grenade (if commercially made) could have a hollow plastic body where one side snaps off to allow removal of the
pyramidal explosive filler block to use as a concussion only grenade. But that's too complicated for us. I'm thinking a cast
block of Nipolit with frag plates that clip on/off.
The detonator is in the center (natch) with a fuze well in the center of the face of one of the sides. A mousetrap type spring
loaded striker could be built in, with the primer being slightly recessed. After pulling the pin, the striker is held back by the
thumb till thrown.
The grenade would be smaller than a baseball, so wouldn't be very heavy. Yes, it's not to aerodynamic, but that's unimportant
at the low speeds a person is able to throw at. For added range, a yard of cord could be clipped onto a recessed eyelet in one
of the corners. Pull the pin, give it a whirl, then throw. You could, with practice, be airbursting these over enemies hiding
behind cars.
Also, you have to remember to think about these in the context of the poster (me). I'm not worried about fighting off invading
soldiers wearing camo and helmets. Rather, my enemies would be wearing blue and badges. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> They're not going to be charging through grenade bursts to assualt MY hill. :p
FarbrorBosse August 3rd, 2002, 09:41 AM

I'll make some 50gram triangle with 4mm hardened steel bullets inside
and around the shell, to see how they behave.
I'm still looking for a program able to calculate and visualize how
pressure travel through material and such, to improve my designs
but the good ones are expensive, and do not give out any trial/shareware programs. :)
Hard to figure the exact effect just by looking at the device.
Talking about blue ones... I have a vague memory I was very close
to get uninvited visitors while thinking of a linear shaped charge yesterday (looked like xtreme's shaped charge but I used AL
instead of brass and < 1mm thick. Fortunately there was a 5 min delay between BOOM and the car with blue lights on the
roof so I was already on the highway when it passed by.
The charge was square shaped like the border surrounding a painting.
I wanted to use equal length det cord and ignite in opposite corners but
only had about150mm homemade so it had to be a regular 1 cap charge.
The sound was very loud even though it was surrounded by a drainpipe full of sand.
Think I'll choose a better location for my tests, recall there is a

weapon storage like 1 km from where I was and someone might have suspected it got visitors.
nbk2000 August 3rd, 2002, 07:10 PM

4mm is BB size. If I remembere right, most grenades using steel balls as fragments use 2mm balls. Though BBs are much
easier to obtain.
In order to properly test a weapon, you need <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?

ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000389#000005" target="_blank">targets</a>. Use these set up at varying distances from the grenade
to examine the frag pattern.
Also, what HE are you going to use?
Spudkilla August 3rd, 2002, 07:24 PM

One problem that you guys seem to not be talking about is the greandes faces? How would you keep these together, and
exploding, rather than just ripping away from the seams? Welding with a primary and HE inside the thing you are welding isnt
a very good idea. I dont think soldering would be a very good idea either.
It is a good idea, but not good for use. Manufacturing would probably cost 2 - 4 times more than simple egg shaped grenade,
they would hard to carry, and, they could just bust if they hit the ground wrong!!!! I would do extensive testing before I tried to
sell that to somebody, because this grenade has more weaknesses then an egg shaped greneade.
James August 3rd, 2002, 09:24 PM

I have a copy of 'the illustrated encyclopedia of ammunition' in which there is a picture of a roughly cylindrical offensive hand
grenade and a fragmenting jacket. (p. 107 far right) the markings read 'HGR SPRENG DM 51' \n 'LOS DN-1-2'.
rjche August 3rd, 2002, 09:29 PM

Good Idea, if practical items can be solved. There is a serious problem of wasted fragments in most designs of antipersonnel
devices.
The thing could have steel bb's embedded in a material like auto bondo, which would be resilient, tough, but NOT absorb
much energy of the blast due to mass or strength.
For example of bb's , a design was theorized using an ordinary 99cent empty spray paint can, with stick of 50% dyamite in its
center with cap set in the center of the stick. The volume around the stick to the outside can was filled with steel BB's, (about 4
$ worth. buck for the stick, and buck for a commercial primer.)
These were designed as pre positioned area protectors, electrically fired from inside a dwelling, to clear the deck around them.
The would be positioned around obvious cover spots of attackers.
In that analysis the coupling from blast energy to bb's was estimated at about 50%. The energy of the stick was calculated,
and was divided equally among the bb's. I believe there were artound 3000 in that design but I'm remembering from several
itterations.
Anyway that design yielded about 2700 fps for each bb.
What I never got around to was finding the ballistic coefficient for a 17 cal bb, of steel and seeing how far it traveled before its
velocity dropped below mach 1. At 1000 fps a steel bb is an effective injury inducing fragment against ordinary clothing and
flesh. Armor would stop it cold, but I believe the calculation showed that a man size target at 20 some feet from it would be hit
with around a hundred bb's, more or less. The paint can was chosen as the handiest container with not too much restraint, etc.
and did NOT Hold too much nor too little bb's to be effective.
For safety the unit would use a fuse blasting cap, with RG58 coax crimped in as the fuse. That would be fired by a stun gun in
the house to put enough hi voltage on the coax at the far end to cause it to arc over. That is about 6 kv. The flame of the
capacitance of the line would make a humongous initation for the fuse cap, so it would reach detonation much better if hit by a
flame. More of it would thus go off high order, although that would not be needed for dynamite.
The coax is more immune from lightning, compared to ordinary electric caps.To further reduce any accidents the cable could
be put in metal tubing, such as 3/8 inch soft copper tubing, and well grounded each end.
That gives the general idea of that design, and the bb's would be just loose in that design. However the use of bondo to allow
no outer container is also a good design. I recall the spinner bomblets in the carpet bomb had hard fragments embedded in a
pot metal housing, which also lost trivial energy of the blast. Also in WWII, Germany used steel frags, or quartz rounded river
gravel, embedded in sorry concrete for their potato masher stick grenades. The bursting charge powdered the light weight
concrete, and the steel or river gravel absorbed much of the blast energy.
I think the angle protection of the thrower is an important feature. Even a bb, can make a painful dent in a buttock from 30
yards away with an initial velocity of only 300 fps or so. One going 2000 or so would be deadly to one's exposed vitals up to
probably 50 yards. Get hit by a dozen and nervous system shutdown could occur as in people shot with firing squads.
Never seen any of them sass back, or say anything after the bang. Something to be said about multiple hits.
OFF thread, but while I'm on the subject those playing with projectiles, we designed one using bondo in 38 cal. 38 spcl, loaded
with 8 grs bullseye, and gas check over that and filled with bondo to top, resulted in a 2500 fps light projectile from 2 inch bbl.
Exploded on impact and made large diameter 2-3 inch hole in chest cavity (side of beef). Thus bondo is a useful material for
weaponeers to consider. Never thought of making one loaded with bb's before, but that would probably be even more
impressive on hitting, but would probably weigh enough to require slower 2400 powder.
Nuff off topic. Those interested in weapons probably enjoyed the rant, but to the triangular grenade, I'm thinking it ought be
given trials, to see what it can do, THEN if it has good tactical merit, let the mfg engrs work out the process to make it. They
know tricks we'd never think of.
If soldiers like it and feel better using it, and it has a good casualty rate, they can make it.
Think what could be done if it was launched by large slingshot, like those theu use to send water balloons. With a 3 second
fuze. even a lit fuse, it could be used as aerial bombardment.
Several hundred bb's coming down from above would raise much hell with one's unarmored appendages and buttocks. Could
likely change ones agressive attitude into a pelp pelp pelp high speed retreat, specially for blue uniformed attackers, not used
to pirania like incoming.
zaibatsu August 3rd, 2002, 10:13 PM

I would have thought it would be relatively easy to make up a casing for the grenade from GRP. It would be simple to
incorporate the BBs, after applying a gelcoat, apply a layer of thin chopped mat, then wait until the resin is close to curing and
therefore sticky, then roll the grenade body in a bath of BBs. Then just lay another layer over the top of these, and you have
the body. Obviously it would have to be done well to be strong, but I don't forsee it being very difficult. Also, it would be quite
cheap to make.
EP August 3rd, 2002, 10:15 PM

Helvetica"> Welding with a primary and HE inside the thing you are welding isnt a very good idea. <hr /></
blockquote>While I agree that the casing itself would be fairly difficult to
make and might end up too weak at the seams, I think the explosives problem can be solved without too much difficulty.
Why not just make the case, then fill with a castable HE, leaving a formed hole the same way you might do for a fountain or
rocket core. The detonator/fuze assembly could then be slid in place and attached once the rest is all ready.
FarbrorBosse August 3rd, 2002, 10:15 PM

I'll either use PETN or RDX as HE and then AP to cause the shock since those are the ones I am pretty sure I won't screw up on
doing. Or just fill it with AP depending on next month income.
Have a friend that can get me unlimited access of 4mm rounds so I'll have to use those even if it limits the holes in my test
dummies. I'll check if he can get me any smaller ones like the 2mm you mentioned and maybe even smaller to lower the
safety distance, and make more holes so it is easier to see the spray pattern.
J.T.Ripper August 4th, 2002, 04:12 AM

Why not have a grenade that like an ice cream cone.
It would have a point at one end and be round at the other. The explosives would be in the cone part and the semi rounded
bottom would be just something heavy to make it stand up. the only problem with this is that it would be hard to throw. you
can fix this problem with a round case like a normal smoke grenade. just have it empty or full of tiny BB's. the wieght at the
bottom would make it stand up and the blast pattern would be at the angle you want, not wasting any shrapnel.
nbk2000 August 4th, 2002, 09:18 AM

A cone isn't going to stand upright. Even with a heavy base, the center of gravity is too high (towards the point) for it to remain
upright, thus it'll always fall over.
A triangle is the most stable geometric shape there is.
Also, it's not hard to make a frag casing for these. Since it IS exactly the same shape on all sides, it wouldn't be difficult at all
to make triangular plates of HFS and attach them to the explosive core.
Or, as suggested, cover in bondo and coat with BBs. Then, for added strength, cover those with a fiberglass wrap and top off
with an additional acrylic coat before painting.
Obviously, the explosive can't be liquid, slurry, or powder. It'd have to be cast. That's why Nipolit would be perfect for these
since it's castable, very strong (mechanically), and uses availble (or makeable) NC as a binder for more powerful explosives
like PETN or TNP.
Anthony August 4th, 2002, 07:03 PM
A bit on the frag energy:
A steel 4.5mm BB weighs 4.5 grains, at 2000 fps, that's 40ft/lb per frag.
Comparitevly, a 12 bore shotty firing No.6 cart has 7ft/lb per pellet at the muzzle, dropping to about 2ft/lb at 45yards.
I reckon the BC of a piece of No.6 shot and a BB would be fairly similar so a bit of rough comparison would be ok. Say, divide
energy by 4 (to be conservative) to give energy at 45yds. So that's about 10ft/lb per frag at 45yds. Bearing in mind that
young adults have been killed by a shot to the head from a single BB at around, or less than that kind of energy, it should do
some damage. If someone got hit by a bunch of them, it should be worse than a hit from a shotty at the same distance
(buckshot and slugs excluded :) ).
DBSP August 6th, 2002, 06:40 AM

I made a tri-grenade yesterday, which I haven't detonated yet. I need to shot a sutible bird for use in the testing first.
I'll use APAN for practical reasons. What explosive I use isn't critical to my test since I just want to test the pattern at first.
It has a thin plastic body with the bbs fastened by double adhesive tape and then secured with spray glue.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/tri_grenade_before_assembling.JPG" target="_blank">http://

w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/tri_grenade_before_assembling.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/DBSPs_tri_grenade_prototype.JPG" target="_blank">http://

w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/DBSPs_tri_grenade_prototype.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/tri_grenade_from_above.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/E&W/tri_grenade_from_above.JPG</a>
[ August 06, 2002, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
nbk2000 August 6th, 2002, 09:37 AM

Good job there!
The only thing I'd do differently would be to have the frags in direct contact with the explosive filler, since even a couple of
millimeters seperation can result in a dramatic lose in velocity.
Is the bird to test flesh penetration? Good thinking.
Also, APAN is a kinda slow explosive for a grenade filler, but if that's all you got...
You should have several cardboard targets (as detailed in the claymore thread) to test fragment dispersion pattern.
Anxiously awaiting test results. Is video possible? Using a mirror, of course, so as not to risk the camera.

Looks nicer with the frags on the outside though, which is of course a top priority :) .
Video would be great, and be sure to have lots of stuff around (wooden planks, thin metal sheets, thicker metal sheets) and
take pics of the effects.
DBSP August 6th, 2002, 05:55 PM

Glad you like it :) The bird is for flesh penetration test.
It's only a prototype so there are lots of things to improve.
I have some large papers I thought I'd put my brother on and draw the curves of his body, and cut them out and fasten them
on a stick and position them in different hights and angles to se how the pattern is.
I haven't got a video camera so thats a bit hard, but I've allways got my digicam.
APAN isn't the only thing I've got, I could use ANNM but I don't think that I can get more than 20-30g into it. A nother thing I
thought about would be NG sensitised AN with a higher percentage of NG(got any idea of this?).
BTW I've counted the bullets and there are about 240 of them.(about 80 each side)
xoo1246 August 6th, 2002, 06:06 PM

Don't forget to remove your brother from the paper when you are done.
Anyways, to make the contruction more exotic one could attach two of thease tri-grenades to each other, thus forming a more
normal grenade shape. They could be held together with NC, when thrown, they separate(with little or no force, you don't want
one of them to fly back again) after a second due to a pyrotechnical train reaching the NC. Two seconds later they both
detonate. It's hard to throw back two grenades.
Eliteforum August 6th, 2002, 07:19 PM

I agree with the idea that Xoo has, I have made a little picture to illustrate what he means but boomSHITE keeps timing out.
(Anyone else having problems like this?)
I'll upload it as soon as I can log into my account.
It has the same idea as the tri-grenade, it will always have 3 sides pointing outwards, however one will always be at a lesser
angle thus lowering kill/target zone.
kingspaz August 6th, 2002, 08:17 PM

yer but if its at a lesser angle and it land in such a way as to point back to you then you have a greater chance of being hit.
nbk's picture illustrates the principle well. the angle side of the pyramid results in hitting nearby targets but not further ones
(like the thrower).

What xoo means is that you have a grenade made out of two tri-s when it hits the ground or when triggered by a mechanism
they seperate and you have two grenades which increeses the chance of hitting the target since there are a larger number of
surfaces on the grenades. This while the risk of getting hit yourself still isn't to great since you still are at a proper
distace(presumably).
Spudkilla August 7th, 2002, 12:19 AM

I am worried about that grenade you constructed, DBSP. My worries are with the fragmentation. I am guessing that the
grenade will explode, but the slugs will fail to seperate from the metal, and your Tri-Grenade will turn out to be an expensive
pipe bomb. For future reference, I think the slugs should be right up next to the explosive charge, so that when the grenade
explodes, you will not just have the "Expensive Pipe Bomb Effect".
I just thought of this, but NBK, you should patent your grenade sometime in the next month or so, once you have had time to
experiment with it. It is an excellent design, and we don't want anybody stealing your ideas (I would never think of it :D )

I don't think NBK has the time or money to patent this. last I checked it was about 7,000$ for all the stuff needed to get a
patent (patent lawyer, patent fees, drafter fees etc) I actually invented a few things before that have either already patented
or patented later ( example the poloroid printing digital camera witch exposes film to a backlit lcd matrix) The only real way to
make money off of an invention without large cash investments is to sell it to an invention company who's purpose is to rip
you off.
nbk2000 August 7th, 2002, 10:30 AM

I've whipped up a cardboard mock-up of two "trinades". Wonders you can make with cardboard and poster putty. :)
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/trinade_together.jpg" alt=" - " />
I see what he meant by two stuck together. That wouldn't be a bad idea if you can get a decent grip on them. But they'd have
to kinda small to be able to throw two together.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/trinade_seperated.jpg" alt=" - " />
With a small seperation charge of flash, and a little practice on the timing so they seperate in midair above the target, you
could have quite an effective dispersion of fragments.
The trinades might be better suited as use as bomblets for cluster weapons. I can envision triangular plates of HFS backed
with sheet explosive. The plates are layed flat, but fold up in mid-air (after dispersion from the carrier) by small flat springs.
The fuse mechanism is embedded in a paper IC circuit that is embedded in the sheet explosive, along with the paper battery
that powers it.
Naturally, these trinades are hollow pyramids, meaning they're light for their volume, but are flat during storage. With 75%
fragment dispersion per bomblet, better than 75% of the bomblets weight being fragments (the HFS steel), and able to pack
them very densely since they lay out flat... <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon23.gif" alt=" - " />
Patents are indeed expensive. And more than 99% of them never make the owner any money.
There's some guy who writes a lot of articles in some electronics magazine or something who's got a whole series of books on
using trademarks, instead of patents, for protecting your ideas. Supposedly just as effective and only costs a few hundred,
instead of thousands.
Well, as an example of previous ideas I've had that I could have profited from if I had had the money to patent them:
<a href="http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/combatvision/SNAKE_EYES/product-SNAKE_EYES.html"
target="_blank">Telescopic Mast (periscope) for Armored Vehicles</a>
Only now are they coming out with this. I had this idea back in '89 and can prove it in court since the design was part of my
notes which the cops copied and entered as evidence against me at my trial.
Other things which I've designed (in said notes) that are comimg out now is the OICW concept of an individual weapon that
uses a laser range finder to program airbursting shells.
Another one was a "bomb" in which individual SOF troopers are dropped into hostile territory by low flying combat jets, thus
obviating the need for slow (and easy to shoot down) transport planes for airdrops.
The DOD went the pussy way of having the "bombs" attached to Harriers that would actually land and disembark the troops on
the ground. With mine, the bomb free falls under GPS guidance till radar detects the ground a few hundred feet below, at
which time a retro-rocket fires to slow the troop carrier to a slow enough speed for the ram chute to deploy without shredding.
Time form retro firing to deployment on the ground would be less than 15 seconds.
The troops would be dropped at the same time as live bombs. Small retarder fins on the carriers give adequate safe distance
from the exploding bombs. This way the troopers are landing within seconds of a bombing run and can easily overcome the
stunned defenders. :)
'Course it'll happen that the occasional manufacturing error results in a failure of the retro to fire or chute to deploy. But that
saves time since they'll automatically be buried in a conveniently provided coffin! :D
I also have an idea for a 20mm+ man portable direct fire cannon that uses gyrojet type rockets with a rifled barrel and
retaining pins similiar to the MLRS system. Rapid fire, recoilless, lightweight (under 25 pounds is light for a "heavy" infantry
weapon), explosive effect, able to engage infantry in the open, behind cover, light armored vehicles, helicopters, and bunkers,
all within line of sight out to more than a kilometer. Minimal firing signature, quick reloading from preloaded revolver-type
drums, alloy and plastic construction (no complicated machining), etc.
Only thing stopping me is a million for R&D. :p Damn it! Where's the letter M when you need it?!
[ August 07, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
PrimoPyro August 7th, 2002, 06:49 PM

This is a very unique design. I like it very much, but it is not without it's problems.
Manufacture of the casing has already been discussed, being evaluated as a hindrance due to complexity of manufacture and
structuring to maintain case integrity as long as possible to ensure complete detonation.
The other problem is that if it is detonated from a single point detonator placed in the center (the logical choice) you will have
a lot of force culminating in the points of the grenade where it does little good except to tear the seams. As the force spreads
out via internal combustion, and the pressure is not yet great enough to rupture the casing, the force rolls off the closest point
of impact to the further points. The closest point will be the flat walls, and the farther points will be the corners. Most of your
force will culminate at the corners at the time of blasting, unless you initiate the blast from these corners.
I would use a five point multi-ignition based on an exploding bridgewire circuit wired through the device. This could easily
detonate all five points simultaneously from one power source (simple capacitor) and could even incorporate various extra
features such as timed delay, impact detonation, arming and disarming, etc. It could be run off a watch battery placed into
one of the corners.
Sounds complicated but so is this entire device if you want it to work correctly. Its not that hard. Wire all the detonators (four
at the points and one at the center) in a small parallel circuit in line with capacitor discharge, and they will all detonate
simultaneously upon closing of the capacitor circuit.
As for building it, I personally would make the actual device as two pieces. Imagine one piece as three of the triangles fused
together, and the second half of the device is the sole remaining piece. In the fused triangle piece, the "top" corner of this
bottomless pyramid should be flat and round, like a nail head for example. In this head is a + that is used in conjunbction
with a screwdriver.
The other piece is the last triangle. Picture it flat on the floor in your mind. Extending upward from its inner center is a thin
threaded bolt that also contains the ignition explosives and contacts.
The bolt piece is placed inside the other fused triangle piece, fitting into the small socket at the "top" of the bottomless
pyramid (on the inside of course) The small space between the flat plate piece and the pyramid is enough to stick a funnel
inside and fill with explosive.
Then the pieces are cranked together with a screwdriver, twising the bolt inside the shaft and causing the threads to pull the
two pieces together and compessing the explosive to a higher density within.
Ideally, the bolt would slip into a small jacket that is part of the fuzed piece, to prevent grinding and premature detonation. As
for what I mean by "small" well 3mm diameter of iron is more than strong enough to crank this down, and that is the average
diameter of a screw.
You could actually use a REAL screw if you reversed the principle, and had the central screw on the fuzed triangle piece be the
real center, and the flat triangle had the jacket that didn't turn. This jacket would slip around the the central screw shaft, and
the screw is just cranked from outside to pull them together.
The metal screw can also serve as an electrical contact from the shaft where the power source for the bridgewire is contained,
to the far point at the end of the screw.
All theory, but so is your grenade. :D
PrimoPyro
[ August 07, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: PrimoPyro ]

Although the features would be nice, and multi-point detonation would be more efficient, the cost of a "smart" grenade like
that would be huge compared to the regular grenades it is intended to replace.
I don't think exploding bridge wire detonators are going to practical, unless the grenade is attached to a long cable running to
your cap bank :)
I think these grenades are a good idea, just as long as their probable extra expense doesn't outweigh their benefits over a
regular grenade, I see no reason why they wouldn't be used.
PYRO500 August 7th, 2002, 10:26 PM

I had an idea for the manufacture of these in large quantities. it is as follows:
1.TNT is melted and then cast in a pyramidal mold
2.The TNT pyramid is drilled out on the top to make a hole for a detonator to be placed later.
3.many parabolic indentations are machined in the sides as an area for the ball berings to be placed in.
4.ball berings are placed in firm contact with the TNT afterwards they are fastened in their place by some type of glue or
epoxy.
5.the grenade is sprayed with a laquor that prevents the handelers from gettin poisoned by the TNT.
6.a detonator/ fuse assembly is inserted into the hole that was previously drilled out.
7.the detonator/fuse assembly is fixred in place and the grenade is now ready for use.
8.the shavings of TNT from drilling the triangle are recycled and thrown back into the molten TNT mix.
The only other thing I could see in the above process as being diffrent is having the ball bering spaces as being cast with the
mold improving production simplicity. THe only problem I see with that is that it may be difficult to make so many indentations
with a simple molding process

To mould the TNT with indentations already present, you could make a mold from latex by first mocking up the grenades
shape with the indentations. Brush the latex on to three sides of the mock-up of the grenade with the hole for the det. already
in place, wait for it to set, and peel off. Then, make a metal/wooden section of the fourth side. Support the latex mould in
sand etc, and pour in the TNT. While still molten, press the metal/wooden side on top and leave to solidify. When the TNT has
set, remove the metal/wooden side and peel off the latex mould.
This is assuming the molten TNT doesn't react with the latex. Also, some work would be needed to ensure a good fit between
the latex mold and the metal/wooden side. But, it would result in a shaped block of TNT ready for the addition of the ball
bearings. You could then place a drop of adhesive in each indentation, then drop in a BB, and carry on like that. Hope this
made *some* sense.
endotherm August 8th, 2002, 12:25 AM

Perhaps a design similiar to a weeble childs toy
"An egg-shaped plastic toy person with a weight in the bottom so that, if tipped over, they would right themselves and stand
up again. They were popular in the UK during the 1970s and were famous for the slogan "Weebles wobble but they don't fall
down" <a href="http://www.yesterdayland.com/popopedia/shows/toys/ty1088.php" target="_blank">WEEBLE</a>
Could be used. A triangular shape with an heavily weighted egg like bottom. The casing can be of a single metal piece, filed to
release shrapnel only from the top part, so no energy is waisted destroying the bottom of the casing.

This design will work. That being said if you are building these things simply to kill/hurt people (I'm sure none of you are)
instead of winning a governmnet contract with complex ratios, and blast patterns simple is better. A insanely simple design
can be made from a toilet paper tube, duct tape, and bbs. I won't bother explaining all the details, but is a simplification of a
russian design. Priotize what you are looking for. 1 Does it work 2 Cost 3 Ease of use 4 Ease of production Keep it Simple
nbk2000 August 8th, 2002, 09:59 AM

Well I tested a full sized cardboard dummy trinade last night at work.
It's three inches along all the edges (natch) and was weighted with sand to about 3-4 ounces. Internal volume is 34 ml
(measured at home with water and cylinder). Using 3/16" steel HFS plating for casing, that'd give a case weight of 13 ounces,
plus 52 grams HE charge at d1.5 (C-4).
From throwing it around for a half hour in the parking lot I learned that:
It flies straight. It doesn't veer left or right. It does (naturally) tumble in flight.
When thrown, it'll fly pretty much in a straight line till the end, at which time it stalls and drops straight down. Like this:
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-

family: monospace;">-----------------------+
+
+
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/(Ground)</pre><hr /></blockquote>Throwing as hard
as I could, it would go 26-28 paces (yards since I've measured my stride as almost exactly such) consistantly.
Perhaps because of the unstable aerodynamics of a triangle, there's a maximum distance it'll fly, regardless of the force
applied to it. If such a "maximum" is possible, then you could, in combination with the "straight down drop" consistantly drop a
trinade down small holes at a distance (like tunnel holes, foxholes, bunker entrances, etc) without the variables that fuck up
most grenade throwers.
When it lands, it'll either stop exactly there (flat side landing), or bounce ONCE and land within 2 feet of it's original landing
point. It did this on flat and sloped concrete (up and downhill), and thick grass. It didn't roll, tumble, or slide when thrown
downhill (about 30 degree slope).
Best way to hold it was with one corner between the index and middle fingers where they join the hand. The little finger and
ring finger are curled up into the palm, and the themb crosses the flat side (side opposite the palm) to touch the index and
middle finger on the edge.
You don't have to complicate the design by machining or casting in dimples or such. Just make a triangular form out of
cardboard, line the outside with magnetic sheeting, and pour in the shot. Line it up by hand to maximum density and the
magnet field holds it in place. I've done this with BBs before. Then fill the mold with your molten explosive that, when cooled,
will hold the shot in place. Hence the Nipolit. Though TNP/wax, or PBX would work fine too.
Weebles stay upright because all the weight is at the bottom. So where's the explosive going to be in a weeble shaped frag
case? At the bottom? Then what about the casing? :rolleyes:
When the explosion starts in the center, it'll radiate out in a spherical manner. Thus, the center of the faces will be the first to
be hit by the shockwave since they're closest to the center. The corners would be last. Thus, what's the problem?
Multipoint initiation for something like a grenade, which needs to be KISSed, is going WAY overboard.
As for why there'd be extra expense for the triangle shape, I don't know where you get that idea from. it'd be VERY cheap to
stamp out a simple shape from sheet steel. A hole is stamped (at the same time) in one face for the detonator well to be
screwed in (later), then stamped into a die to form it into a triangle. Fill through provided hole, and there it is.
Two or three stamping operations and one fitting makes a grenade body. How simple is that? :)
endotherm August 8th, 2002, 10:48 AM

NBK: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Weebles stay upright because all the weight is at the bottom. So where's the explosive going to be in a
weeble shaped frag case? At the bottom? Then what about the casing? <hr /></blockquote>Most high explosive fillers would be of a lower density, than perhaps a lead slug at the base
of the tri-grenade with the egg shaped bottom. Maybe the bottom of the tri-grenade could be filled with molten lead to provide
the bottom-heaviness to keep it upright like a weeble. Maybe i'm complicating things too much, or maybe i'm not, because a
grenade that stands upright and throws it shrapnel at only the perfect angles and wastes little explosive energy through
unimportant areas(the bottom of the grenade if it's upright, or the side of the grenade facing the ground for a regular
grenade) is a concept worth complication.

I think what endotherm is trying to say, is a tri-grenade like this:
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/eggtri.gif" alt=" - " />
The black part being the weight, and the area above your frag/explosive area.

Yes... Except that the weight of the explosive/frags will make the grenade non bottom heavy, so the weighted bottom will be
useless.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to get the balance right..
nbk2000 August 8th, 2002, 06:53 PM

And if you succeed in weighting it so it stays upright, how heavy is it going to be? :( Probably too heavy to throw far enough
away.
Lets just wait till the test results come in before we start arguing over theory, shall we?

I'll make one like in my diagram above. If I take pictures they will be small like my other pictures were. So.. :confused:

Just finished the demo design. Bear in mind it is just a demo and the pictures are crap and everything.. 'nuff said, here's the
pictures.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/001.gif" alt=" - " /> - Top view of materials.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/002.gif" alt=" - " /> - View of rounded base.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/003.gif" alt=" - " /> - Top view of compleated cone and base.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/004.gif" alt=" - " /> - Bottom view of cone and base.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/005.gif" alt=" - " /> - Top view of cone.
nbk2000 August 9th, 2002, 01:59 AM

Looks like a vanilla ice cream cone that fell upside down. And just as deadly! :D
THErAPIST August 9th, 2002, 03:51 AM

i have an idea. you would first make a tri grenade cast out of heavy cardboard. you would then fill the cast with AP/DBSP and
put a match stick or a big tooth pick in there to make a hole for a fuse. after the putty is dry it would keep the tri grenade
shape so you would be free to put a thin layer of adhesive onto the triangle and then put your BB's on the adhesive. then you
would put a fuse in the afore mentioned tooth pick hole. you would light the fuse and throw it. if it hit hard enough it would
detonate on impact or it would go off when the fuse hit it. if it detonated on impact we could get rid of the throwing it back
problem all together. not to mention there wouldnt be any space between the projectiles and the explosive so the projectile
would go at the greatest speed possible. or maybe have a bondo cover that held the BB's. the bondo covers would have an
adhesive on one side, like double sided tape or something. that way you could keep the bondo covers off and have a small
somewhat shitty concussion grenade for those worried about shrapnel or you could peel the cover strip off of the double sided
tape and stick the bondo/ bb covers on the charge for a frag grenade. the bondo might kinda cussion the grenade from
impact detonation also.
just an idea

I see potential advantages and disadvantages for both. For one the original tri grenade has it's strong points such as great kill
zone schrapel coverage while it possibly lacks coverage in the sides where the sides of the paramid meet. other than that it
has almost 360 coverage and has the nice feature of pretty much unlimited schrapenel. another problem is the aerodynamics
witch seem to keep it from going very far, perhaps with a heavyer model the effects will differ.
On the cone idea, you get absolute 360 coverage but you are limited not only to the weight of schrapnel but you are also
limited on the explosive and the size as the weight has to compensate. I'd say for aerodynamics the cone has the parymid
beat by a mile beacuse when throwing the cone you have a smooth face that comes to a point in the back. the design will
tumble in flight depending on how you throw it but if the end is heavy enough and the cone is long/narrow enough it would
possibly strike end first meaning you could have impact detonation.
The problem I see in the cone is the small size of the base of the cone is making the surface area around the cone (witch you
can only add limited weight to anyways) small and reducing the density of the schrapnel at longer ranges.
I think a combination of self righting and directional controlon where the schrapnel might work. How about a grenade that's
aerodynamic and has control over the direction in witch the schrapen goes when it lands in the right position. possibly a
grenade that has metal extrusions that cause it to roll into the desired position. After all, all the grenade has to do is land in
the right position there's no saying a cheap plastic shell that makes it land in the right orentation (and makes it more
aerodynamic) couldn't be used on the outside of the device.
Something else that I've considered is attaching high power magnets to the outside of a metallic fragmentation gredade. if
the cops are taking cover and duck and firing behind their cars then you could possibly create a magnetic grenade that would
practicly stick to any car or large iron containing object it might touch instead of bouncing off. Another practical use for
something like this is to throw from a moving car, you have your grenade and when tossed from a car is likely to crack a few of
the magnets but that won't matter beacuse there stuck to an iron ring anyways and need over 200 pounds to pull em off. any
car that happened to be in the path of the grenade would have it stick and go off while attached to the car adding to the
lethality and stopping power (where is a grenade gonna hit a car that won't disable it or the occupant?

I made some targets today, sadly I haven't shot a sutible bird yet(when I don't one I can have one but when I really need
one I can't get one, fuck :mad: ).
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/trinade_target.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/E&W/trinade_target.JPG</a>
I just couldn't resist it, I <a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/just_had_to_kill_him.JPG" target="_blank">just
had to kill him</a> :D
Anyway, I added a thing to one of the sieds of my trinade today. I added some 2,0-2,2mm lead shots(US #9)to it, you don't
get killed by them but thay are "extra" distractive and add to the total ammount of shock experiensed by the target, this
acomplished by the greater ammount of hits.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/trinade.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/

trinade.JPG</a>
THErAPIST August 11th, 2002, 01:05 AM

must you shoot a bird? is there anything else you might be able to bag? a stray cat or a rabbit maybe? maybe even a racoon
or somehting. go out into the woods, open up a package of jimmy dean sausages, and shoot anything that comes around. or
trap something. what better way to test the effects of the grenade on flesh than to test it on something thats still living? trap a
cat or something, put a collar on it and stake it somewhere near the trinade. youd then be able to see the punctures better.
and see if the pellets do enough damage to actually kill something instead of just puncture it a little.
tis what id do... lotsa stray cats around here.
Energy84 August 11th, 2002, 02:45 AM

You're sick man. Mabye you should be used as the target? Why not use a human (if you can be called that) as a test target?
That is what the tri-grenade is intended for isn't it?

I'm not really interested in a target demonstration. I don't care about a bird, I say save them for the poison gas testing.
I think the added bb's are going to make it harder to differentiate between the larger shot and the pattern that it spreads in.
Just seeing that it slopes upwards away from the explosive (paper punch) is good enough for me althoug if you could set up
multiple large targets that were in front of eachother in regular intervals you could see if the schrapnel was actually sloping
upwards as intended. Another thing I wanst to know is how much schrapenl is flung aroung the ground, if you can't stop them
from throwing schrapnel at ankle hiegth that dosent rise then forget about staying prone far away to avoid the schrapnel.
nbk2000 August 11th, 2002, 10:05 AM

The military uses live `goats, sheep, dogs, and monkeys as targets to test weapons effects. After all, dead targets don't bleed
out, or survive a hit. The ability to kill is a prime concern for a weapon, and the only way to test that is to KILL something
that's alive.
As for ground level fragments, that'd be easy enough to test if you have a flat water pond (like a certain someone has :D ).
Simply set the trinade on a float and explode it out on the water while videoing it. If you see any splashs on the water at a
distance, that's a fragment. No splashes equals no fragments.
Some surveyors stakes and a roll of kraft paper or such could be used to test for low level frags. Set up a snail shaped spiral
from 1 yard out to 15 or so. Attach the 18" wide kraft paper to the stakes using a heavy stapler. Look for what distance the
frags no longer puncture the paper. That's you minimum safe distance. After all, if the 18" paper isn't penetrated, neither
would a person laying down since they're less than 18" high.
One could deliberatly design it so the frags are very unaerodynamic. Use cubes of dense plastic as fragments. They'll travel
very quickly at first, but rapidly lose velocity since they're of low mass and high drag. This would make it lethal for a few yards,
but harmless at distance.
Besides which, this is just part of a larger concept anyways, which includes the use of lightweight ballistic shields. This would be
between you and the target anyhows, so between the design and the shield, you'd be quite safe at even close range.
Smaller BB's won't confuse the test results since you can clearly diffirentiate between bullet sizes in paper targets. I'd include
some kind of wood target to catch some frags with. If the frags penetrate a 2 inch thick pine board then it'd kill a person.
Usually, the military goes with the 2mm size because of the large number of fragments this allows to be packed into a
grenade (1,500 or more), but limits the penetration since the main objective is to seriously wound an enemy, requiring the
removal of two other enemy soldiers to help the wounded man.
However, since (in our context) we're not interested in wounding, but rather immediate cessation of hostilities by killing the
enemy, larger fragments are required. Plus, large fragments will better penetrate soft body armor.
Interestingly enough, I saw a patent for pyramidal shotgun pellets. The patent states that they travel farther and faster than
round shot since it's somewhat aerodynamically shaped, and penetrates better since it has sharp points and edges to pierce
and cut a target.
I could see a mold into which regular round steel shot (heated white hot) is dropped into and hammered to turn it into a
pyramid. The mold would be hard, but the conversion would be easy.
DBSP August 11th, 2002, 11:11 AM

Ok test results up.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/trinade_setup.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/trinade_setup.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/after_trinade_det.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/after_trinade_det.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/trinade_crater.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/trinade_crater.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/target_nr1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/

trinade/target_nr1.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/back_of_targtet_nr1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/back_of_targtet_nr1.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/target_nr2.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/

trinade/target_nr2.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/closeup.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/

trinade/closeup.JPG</a>
I got about 25g of ANNM into the trinade and detonated it with a 22 WM shell full of HMTD. I placed the trinade about 10cm
above the ground on a piece of wood.
I was supprised to see how few of the frags that had hit the targets, target #1 had substained the heaviest damage. #1 was
placed about 1,5m from the target in a position that would equil to a person sitting on the ground. Not only had about 20-25
of the larger bullets hit it, it had also been sprayed with fragments from the ground and casing, I'm not shure wether that
person had survived or not but I doubt that he would have been in a position where he could have posed a threat to anyone in
the area:p
#2 only got hit 3 times, and #3 not hit once.
The red rings indicate hits from the larger bullets.
I belive the results would have been better if a cast explosive had benn used and had had the frags directly on the explosive.
xoo1246 August 11th, 2002, 11:29 AM

You know when I was in the military, they had a weapons demonstration. One example was a handgrenade on the ground with
paper figures around it. The closest(few meters) had only been hit three times. This is not that bad. I would say it's fairly good
to be the first test.
Anthony August 11th, 2002, 11:53 AM

One thing is does show is that the frags did travel at an upwards angle from the grenade.
nbk2000 August 11th, 2002, 12:28 PM

An overhead view would have been helpful because I have a feeling that the orientation of the faces of the trinade in relation
to the targets would reveal much.
For instance, was target #1 (the closest) also in direct line with one of the faces of the trinade? If so, that'd explain the almost
claymore-like shredding of the target. I've looked very closely at the picture, and it looks like this may have been the case,
but it's hard to tell since I'm using a TV as a monitor at the moment, so resolution is crappy and it may be my eyes playing
tricks on me.
Also, target #2, while it only got 3 hits, got 2 of them in the chest cavity, one in the center mass, where the lungs/heart/
arteries are. That would have been a serious or fatal hit right there.
And, let's not forget the math. Your test model had 90 frags per side. If we multiply that by 4 because of using 2mm frags
instead, that increases the hits from 3 to 12 for the farthest target to get hit, and 25 for the closest to...well...swiss cheese.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p
After enhacing the contrast in photoshop, I was able to find an additional dozen or so significant holes. These are highlighted
in larger red circles than the originals.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Trinade_Vested-Target.jpg" alt=" - " />
I also overlayed a typical ballistic resistant vest to demonstrate that, even with a vest, the target would have been fucked.
An even ten in the upper thorax, head, and neck. An additional 4 in the belly, plus numerous in the arms and shoulders. As
stated, even if the target wasn't "killed" it'd be MAJORLY wounded and in no condition to fight you.
BTW, a trinade landing at either end of a parked car would likely be no more than 1.5 meters from a vest wearing target <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> hiding behind a parked vehicle, using it as cover from your weapons fire.
The targets where made out of some kind of wood or particle board, weren't they? It doesn't look like cardboard to me.
Anyways, this is indeed very interesting results. I'd suggest the next one be made from a cast explosive (TNP/wax or TNT) in
direct contact with BB frags (better coverage than large shot). Also, more targets in the spiral pattern to determine frag
coverage.
I've also thought of the possibility of creating a concaved indentation into the faces of the trinade to act as a focus for the
frags. The focus, being very close to the face of the trinade, would cause the frags to widely disperse past the focus.
Another idea:
Create many small trinades from AP putty. Coat with BBs, then with bonbo or rubber cement to fire proof. Only a inch or less of
cannon fuse protrudes out of the trinades. These are then loaded into a light cardboard container filled with (Shit! :mad:
Forgot what it's called, but its rice hulls covered with black powder) to ignite the fuses and disperse the trinades. These would
(in turn) explode from multiple points around the targets, ensure multiple hits from all angles.
Basically, a hand thrown cluster bomb. :D
Suspend the large grenade from a tree about 5 meters above the targets and electrically ignite.
Do you have any FLAT areas around there? Like a rock outcropping or field? This would be a better test since the trinade was
envisioned as an URBAN weapon, thus nice and flat surfaces.
[ August 11, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

well after zooming into the picture of the setup and looking closely it looks to me as if #1 had a full face, #2 had the very
edge of a face and #3 had where 2 faces join.
i have to say that the slaughter number 1 got is very impressive! also well done DBSP for your work. its nice to see some real
experiments with pictures. pictures say sooo much more.
EP August 11th, 2002, 04:42 PM

Helvetica"> (Shit! Forgot what it's called, but its rice hulls covered with black powder) <hr /></blockquote>Most people just call it "bp coated rice hulls" :p
Nice work DBSP!

As I don't have any cast explosives at the moment it would be a bit hard to test a trinade with the frags directly in contact with
the explosive. But I got an idea when you mentioned AP putty. What if you make a trigrenade body out of AP putty, thus you
would have the frags in direct contact with the explosive. The inside of the body could then be filled with a more powerful
explosive(that doesn't dissolve the NC) the casing would allso serve as detonator. Perhaps you could use TNP or better RDX or
PETN, at this moment I have whats needed to make TNP and perhaps RDX(I recently got a simple <a href="http://
w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/glassware.JPG" target="_blank">distillation flask</a> ). Do you have any ideas?
target #1 was faced directly at one of the sides at a distance of about 1,25-1,5m. #2 was about 3-4m away and faced... I'll
have to continiue tomorrow, goto go to bed now, going to the hospital tomorrow.

I can knock up Trinade if the construction is deemed suitable.
I don't have any RHS to hand. So it's going to have to be BB frags. I'm thinking of cutting 4, 3" triangles from 0.5-1mm thick
mild steel sheet, coating with BBs (I'll give the magnet trick a go, if not glue) and assembling into a triangle.
My concern is that the relatively flexible steel skin might interfer with the frag dispersal, or do people not think this will be a
problem?
Filler would be plasticised PETN or mannitol hexanitrate, although I cannot make this ATM, although I do have nitromethane
and NaNO3 to hand.
Making enough carboard mankins to full map the frag pattern seems like a royal pain. I can test it indoors though. The room
is about 30ft square (in fact, the exact size of a squash court), the walls are white painted plaster so should show the frag hits
and give a 360 degree map.
Worth doing?

an indoor room that you can test a fragnetation device in? who would happen to own this room :) I hope for the legality it's
you. I think that a 30 square foot room would give the fragments ample time to expand and with a decent digital camera
could provide some useul data.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2002, 09:55 AM

DBSP:
Why you going to the hospital? You didn't get hit, did you?
I don't know about using AP putty as a body...seems unstable. As the charge, maybe, but the casing, no.
Definatly use the TNP, since that's a good HE, and easily mixed with some parrafin wax for casting. You'd have to use a strong
detonator to ensure high order detonation.
Anthony:
The thinner the casing, the better I'd think. How about trying the metal of sodas can (aluminium to you brits <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) for the outer casing? Nice and thin, and soft too. Though, with rightous HE, the steel
would easily break apart, but it MAY interfere with frag dispersal.
HFS (AKA High Fragment Steel) is a brittle steel formulation used in US arty and warhead rounds that breaks apart into nice
diamond shaped fragments (as shown):
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/HELLFIRE_Warhead_Fragments.jpg" alt=" - " />
This would be nice for making a trinade casing from, but I doubt you can go to the local scrapyard and pick up some sheets of
it. :( Besides, BBs make for much more numerous (if less fearsome) fragments for the same weight.
Put the BBs inside, not outside, of a cardboard trinade case so they're in as direct contact with the explosive as much as
possible so they gain maximum velocity. The magnet is used only to hold the BBs still so they can be bound in place, not as
permanent holding.
In fact,I think plaster would be better than glue to hold the BBs still since it's very fragile and would easily disintegrate from
the explosion, with no BBs being (possibly) held in "clumps" by glue or epoxy.
Definitaly go with the PETN. Maximum velocity possible equals much greater effect. Boosted detonator too to ensure maximal
VOD. The NM/NO3 would be too weak.
Don't put the trinade in the direct center of the square room since this would show only equal distance effects. Rather, place it
towards a corner, so you get both the close, and the far, effects. If you get a nice line of fragments rising up the wall as it gets
farther away, you've done a good job. :)
Large sheets of white plastic are available at nursery (plants, not brats) stores for covering seedlings. These sheets are yards
wide and very cheap. I'm assuming wood walls for the room? If not (brick/concrete) you should cover the walls with the plastic
sheeting so it can record the frag impacts. Otherwise they'll just bounce off the walls, likely leaving very small marks.
Good thing about an enclosed space is that you can easily recover spent fragments. This in itself tells you a lot about the
explosions effect on the frags. Are they deformed/shattered/nelted? Or relatively intact?
Bignutsami August 12th, 2002, 10:33 AM

Could you not dip a cast pyramid into NC/Acteone, use this to stick the bb's to the surfaces. When dry coat the device with a
few layers of inert laquer.
This way you would have explosive to bb contact, as NC will detonate along with the rest and no casing to interfear with shot
patterns.
You can poke a hole through a bird with a blunt stick .. so i wouldnt bother messing with that. Find a kangaroo or something
and you'll have a worthy human sized target.

Yes, we can all go out and pick up kangaroos for our tests :rolleyes:
Anthony, did the stuff I sent you arrive OK?
nbk2000 August 12th, 2002, 12:43 PM

Well...he's australian....so allowances must be made for that. :p
It's a Tri-grenade, not a Tri-garoo. :D
Though if an ozzie member wants to test one out against a 'roo, go for it! :) Just be sure to get some pictures.
NC laquer, or regular laquer, it's not going to make much difference.
THErAPIST August 12th, 2002, 12:53 PM
so i thought live animals would be a more effective test subject than a dead ones... im not all that sick. for a case, instead of
aluminium maybe some thin plastic like that used in 2 liter drink bottles would work? im not sure but i think that thin plastic
would give easier than some aluminum. sure aluminum would rip a little easier but wouldnt plastic give just as easily?
detonation = heat, heat and force from detonation would = melting and shattering of plastic. now if the aluminum would be
able to be used as fragmentation itself id say use it, but since aluminum wouldnt make very good shrapnel past a couple feet
plastic might be better. the plastic might possibly cool into hard sharply shaped pieces that would be more effective for
shrapnel at a meter or more but, it would more likely get vaporized. if i remember correctly A-3 is pretty much C-4, A-3 being
wax binded RDX instead of being binded with oils and such, im not too great with binding things but binding some RDX with
wax and then pouring it into a mold could be done easily couldnt it?.
and nice work DBSP

I'll try the drink can aluminium, I am a bit concerned about it's rigidity though.
Yeah, I did intend to put the frags on the inside and the magnets only to hold the frags until they're set in place.
I will cast them in plaster.
The walls of the room are plastered brick, I'll take a reccy down there later and test the dentability of the plaster. I'm hoping
it's soft enough to show the frag hits as-is.
For legality's sake: yes, I do own the building. I grew tired of my private squash courts and abandoned them to vandals :)
Emailed you Mr C

I took a walk down there this afternoon. It's a shame about it being the school holidays, too many bloody little people about
for my liking. They should know better than to play in abandoned buildings - especially ones used for prototype anti-personal
weapons testing <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon23.gif" alt=" - " />
Anyway, I was a bit off on the measurements of the room, also the end of the room with the door only has plasterwork up to a
height of 7 feet. There's enough loose material around for me to cover the door way to avoid a blind spot in the frag map.
Below is a map of the room, with dimensions:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/room_map.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/

room_map.htm</a>
The numbers in blue relate to the photos on this page:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/squash_court.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/

squash_court.htm</a>
The page contains 800kb of photos so it's going to be slow for you poor DUNers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> Unfortunately, I managed to blur a few of the shots. I forgot you have to be patient with that poxy camera...
To test the walls for dentability, I decided to shoot some BBs at it from across the room. I would have used an airgun, but
didn't have my BB firing pistol to hand. The next best thing was a 9mm blank firing pistol loaded with a tissue paper sabot
and 10 BBs. I fired at an angle to the wall to avoid richocets, so the BBs striking the wall weren't at any optimum angle to
penetrate into the plaster (the ejected brass still got me in the ear after bouncing off the wall behind me though).
Forgive the shitiness of this picture, but I assure you that it contains 10 dents in the plaster circled with a marker pen:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/BB_hit.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/BB_hit.htm</a>
To guage the energy of the fired BB's, I did a control shot at a piece of hardboard from a closer distance:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/BB_hit_hardboard.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/

BB_hit_hardboard.htm</a>
Only four of the ten BBs penetrated the hardboard and one of these was still lodged in the board. I concluded that each BB
couldn't have had more than a few ft/lbs of energy. So the frags from a Trinade should leave easily noticeable marks in the
plasterwork.
Next step is to construct the Trinade and try synthesising some more PETN with the NaNO3 I have on hand, failing that, it will
have to wait till I can get some more KNO3.
EDIT: considering the dimensions of the room, where do you think would be the best position to locate the Trinade?
[ August 12, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

I went back to the det site erlier today to see if I could find anything of value to the valuation of the trinade.
I was amazed by what I found. Somewhere between 8 and 10 meters behind target one there are two trees.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/view_from_detsite.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/view_from_detsite.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/2hits.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/
trinade/2hits.JPG</a>
I went up to them to see if I could find anything, and I did:

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/fraghit1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/
trinade/fraghit1.JPG</a>
There where about three hits from what I could see. I took my knife and started carving into the tree to recover the bullet, I
expected to find the bullet just beneath the surface but NO I found it 5mm into the actual tree, which in turn is covered by
20mm of the ...whats the english word for it, you now the outer layer of the tree. Thus it had penetrated 25mm of wood, nice
:D On the tree a meter behind the first I found a hit from one of the smaller 2.. lead bullets, this one had penetrated about
5mm which isn't that bad considering the low mass of the bullet.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/view_from_detsite.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/view_from_detsite.JPG</a>
And NBK I wasn't hit, I just went back to check that my heart infection had healed. I stayed behind <a href="http://
w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/cover.JPG" target="_blank">this</a> rock which seemes to thick to be penetrated by
those tiny bullets :p
I allmost forgot one thing, the stick target #1 was held on had allso been penetrated. One of the larger bullets had hit it in
the middel. It is clear that the bullets path is directed uppwards as the entrace hole was about 12mm lower than the exit hole.
The bullet had penetrated the stick which is about 20mm thick with apparent ease.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/entrance_hole.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/

~u47804009/trinade/entrance_hole.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/trinade/exit_hole.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/
trinade/exit_hole.JPG</a>
If you where to use a better design and a better explosive this thing would be DEADLY.
I've been thinking about the idea of placing the frags inside the casing instead of on the outside. If you had a thinner casing
that the bullets would easily penetrate without to much hassle, the velocity of the frags would dramaticly increase, and to that
you can add the raise in velocity from a better explosve. I can emagine that the the penetration abilitys would be very good.
Sorry for the bad quality of the last two pics.
endotherm August 12th, 2002, 08:05 PM

Does anyone have any idea what the relative velocity of grenade frags is (not necessarily improvised either)?
When these bb's fly off,let's say a cast block of PETN what is the estimated velocity at a few meters?
Judging by the wounds on stick target #1 those BB's appear to be chuggin' along at well over 1000 fps.
[ August 12, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]

DBSP, some good info and nice pics! Oh, and the outer layer of a tree is called the *bark* of a tree.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2002, 11:31 PM

For the US standard issue frag grenade, it's 1,600 m/s at 5 yards from the explosion for a .11 gram fragment.
nbk2000 August 13th, 2002, 11:25 AM

DBSP:

Helvetica">
If you where to use a better design and a better explosive this thing would be DEADLY.
<hr /></blockquote>My design's perfect. Now IF that damn rock wasn't
in the way we'd know if ALL the fragments had gone over your head into the trees. I don't think target #1 would say it's NOT
deadly. :p
Assuming none bounced off the rock, then it'd seem that a thrower more than 10 meters distant (and kneeling/prone) would
be quite safe from fragments, while anyone closer who was standing would catch them.
And anyone within a cars length would be shredded regardless, vest or not. :)
Being able to penetrate an inch of hardwood at 10 meters using only an ounce or so of a mid-range explosive is pretty damn
good for something you could whip up in a wal-mart!
I also noticed how the crater was triangular shaped, not spherical.
You may want to try a claymore test using only one face of a trinade with 2 layers of shot inside the casing. The detonator
being at the apex opposite the shot face. This might prove to be a quite effective directional mine design for something so
simple to make.
Anthony:
Using the layout from your diagram of the court, I'd say place the trinade where a line drawn from 8 to 4 and 7 to 2 intersect
with a face parallel to the far wall (1,2). This should give sufficient coverage for determining the pattern. Hopefully the material
isn't so tough the the angled impact frags richochet off without penetrating. :(
As a suggestion, you may wish to bring a large spool of twine or thread. This way, after the test (assuming no piggies are
coming), you can place one end of the thread into a frag hole, secure in place, then secure the other end at the grenades
position. Repeat several hundred times :D and you'll have a visual representation of the grenade frags paths. Now THAT'D be
impressive. :)
In General:
From my references, it seems that a 5mm steel ball propelled at grenade speeds has greater than 1.5x impact energy as a
5.56mm NATO (M-16) bullet. And that a 3.7mm tungsten ball has twice the penetration capability against body armor.
I got this from some info about grenade I mentioned at the beginning of this topic. Their design was intended to defeat
CRISAT armor (com-block) consisting of 26 layers of kevlar and 1.6mm titanium plate that'll stop a 9mm at the muzzle.
In their design, the thrower at 25meters had a 5% chance of getting hit, while a crouching enemy at 10 yards had a 99.9%
chance of catching frags. These frags being capable of directly defeating the armor. :D
You won't be seeing these though because it wasn't selected for production because a more conventional design was choosen
because it would kill the enemy through saturation of the limbs with fragments, achieving the same results at 3 meters (the
test criteria).
Density of the frags effects both penetration and weight velocity retention. Shape of the frags effects the distance to which a
frag of given weight will travel, given the same velocity. Spheres aren't very aerodynamic, but they're easy to get a hold of.
Plastic or aluminium casing won't matter not with a HE filling inside it. Both will be equally pulverized to nothingness. Only a
steel shell of substantial thickness might alter the frags pattern.

DBSP, I don't think that you could say it penetrated 25mm of hardwood, the barks very easy to penetrate, comparable to a
couple of mm of actual hardwood (at a guess). A .177 air rifle firing lead pellets can achieve about 5mm of penetration at 30
yards into a hardwood tree, where I think the power has dropped down to around 5-6ftlb. Therefore I believe the power of that
one BB has to be below 5-6fltb, as the lead pellets have a greater mass, and deform more, but still penetrates the same
amount at a greater distance.
All the above is IMHO! But the research you are doing is good, and the pics very interesting :)

You are right, it didn't penetrate 25mm of hadwood. It penetrated 20mm of bark and 5mm of hardwood. I can imagine that it
would have penetrated about 10-15mm of Hwood if it had hit it directly. The bark does and excelent job slowing the hte bullet
down. I'll shoot a few rounds with my .177 and .22 tomorrow at the same distace for comparison.
What I meant with better design was that the manufacture and choise of casing could be made better.
nbk2000 August 17th, 2002, 09:13 AM

Well, in the patnet they use a conical frag casing to direct the fragments in a circular band, but this requires a self-righting
mechanism.
A similar type device would be (in theory) constructed from a plastic easter egg shell used a form into which is layered the BBs
and filled with the explosive.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Egg-Grenade.gif" alt=" - " />
Here I've overlayed the easter egg shell over the patent image to demonstrate the idea.
Naturally the plastic shell would either be removed, or reinforced with fiberglass or such, before deployment, depending on
construction.
Because of the more "upward" angle of the eggshell, more frags would be directed upwards (over your head) than would be by
the patented design. This reduces effective radius, but greatly increases user safety. That's a big selling point to me. :D
(I can already hear the cries of "Weeble-Wooble!")
Problem with a WW is that it wobbles for quite a bit of time if tossed about. If it isn't straight up, it could be tilted towards
YOU, thus ricocheting frags along the ground into your hide. :(
Thus, you need to ensure uprightness by either geometry (Trinade), or self-righting mechanism.
I'm envisioning the use of 4 mouse traps which have the "neck breaker" cut into two parts, along with the spring which is
reduced in size and twisted around a little. A wood base is made into which is fitted the "legs" (mouse traps), which are folded
up against the grenade body and held in place with a string made of nitrated cotton.
The grenade fuse is run against the string, just before going into the detonator.
When the fuse is about a second or less from the det, the flash-string burns off, freeing the legs which spring open and
upright the grenade. The (now upright) grenade explodes a moment later, showering the target with frags. :)
Flake2m August 17th, 2002, 10:39 AM

NBK I really think your idea of a tetrahedral shaped grenade is fantastic, thought there are a few design flaws concerning the
shape that potenially could reduce effectiveness.
1. If the triade detonates directly below the target then the cop <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ... I
mean target won't take very much shrapnel.
2. A tetrahedral shaped grenade cannot be rolled very easily.
My final point is, that if you want to reduce costs, you could use marbles rather then ball bearings. The good thing about
marbles is that they are light weight, they also aren't detected by metal detectors <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> . Marbles are also cheap a large bag of about 30 is AU$3 at Big W. The bad thing about them is, that you
aren't likey to find 4.5mm marbles easily but rather 12mm marbles.
nbk2000 August 17th, 2002, 12:53 PM

Marbles are made of glass, and would thus be pulverized into bits of ineffectual sand by any decent HE.
If a trinade landed directly between someones legs, and they didn't ry to run, then their legs would be blown clean off. There's
not enough dispersion at 1' distance for the fragments to miss two legs. Considering how shredded the closest target was, I
can't imagine the surgeons being able to save someone point blank to one.
True, you can't roll a trinade worth a shit. But that's also a good thing in an urban enviroment. It'll stay where you land it and
not roll in an undesirable direction. In stairwells, for instance, a trinade wouldn't roll back down at you. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> It'd stay right on the stair.
Conversly, it wouldn't likely roll down past an enemy. As a matter of fact, you'd WANT it lower than their level because the
frags would sweep UP the stairs, catching them from behind. :)
Roofs have gutters through which a round grenade might roll back down.
And I wouldn't want to use a regular grenade in a typical car garage, what with all those sloped surfaces and drop offs.
OH! IDEA!
I was at the grocery store earlier waiting for my ride when an armored car came up for a pick-up.
I got the engine model number off the side (since it was SO conceniently on the side :D INTERNATIONAL DT466E) and was
talking to this guy sitting next to me about the feeb courier who looked like he barely had enough brain power to walk, let
along handle large sums of cash.
Anyways, the idea of a large SC/EFP trinade came to me. 4 copper platters embedded in a trinade charge made from NIPOLIT
with RDX/PETN could be tossed on an armored car roof, engine compartment, or underneath, and it'd pretty much fuck it up no
matter where it landed.
If on top, it wouldn't roll off, and would pierce the roof, injuring/killing the crew.
On the engine compartment, it would immobilize the vehicle by destroying the engine, and possibly taking out the driver if you
had one of the vertical faces pointed that way.
Underneath, it would shot 3 penetrators up into the hydralics/fuel/transmission/tires, likely immobilizing it.
Rare earth magnets embedded in the corners would keep it from sliding off in wet/windy weather.
[ August 17, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

OT: NBK, all you need for an armoured car heist is a sawed off shotgun or a handgun.
There was a guy running around Winnipeg since 1998 who used a sawed of shotgun to rob these armoured cars. His plan was
flawless. He would scout out when and where the cars would be and figure out there schedules. Then when he the appropriate
time came (christmas, thanksgiving, easter or any other time when money was flowing) he would steal two cars and park one a
few blocks away. The second one would be used to go to the scene and do the job. Usually he would park the car infront or
behind of the armoured car (he actually rammed it on a few occasions) and run out with a ski mask over his face while blasting
away with either a shotgun or a pistol. The guards would either be hit/out of commission or scared shitless. Sometimes the
robber would get close enough to grab the bag from the guard before opening fire. Out of eight tries, he got away with the
money 6 times. Over the 4 year period, he collected over 1.2million dollars (canadian unfortunatley <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).
Poor bugger was finally caught this spring when he got careless and started flashing large bills and buying lots of drugs. He
was found in an apartment screwing a whore. When the cops burst in though, he managed to get off a few shots and wounded
2 officers. :D

No need for rare earth magnets NBK, there are far cheaper larger magnets with a bit less power but they are more than
enough. I am refering to the magnets that are found on the end of the head arm inside a hard drive they can be seperated
from their shielded mounts with the aid of a screwdriver or flat piece of metal and prying them up. something like 3 on each
side of a grenade would allow it to stick to the steel of the car making it stick when thrown over the top or easily sticking to the
side or bottob as well.
nbk2000 August 17th, 2002, 11:33 PM

Rare earth magnets are small, very strong, and cheap. You can get them at Wal-Mart for Gods sake!
And I'd much rather not tear apart a HDD to get them, thank you very much. :p
OTR (Off Topic Reply)
That guy was an idiot. How often did he expect to do it and get away with it? Can you spot the RTPB violations?
firebreether August 18th, 2002, 12:03 AM

Besides, if you're gonna rob an armored car with some trinades with magnets, who the hell cares whether rare earths cost a
little more then normal magnets :D
PS very good idea NBK about the magnets.

Where have you seen rare earth magnets in walmart? I sure havent seen them except in some high price headphones and
such. As for tearing apart a HDD, I don't think it's that hard, you just need one screwdriver with the right security bit to get the
magnets out on most of them and the hard drive magnets are very common on surplus's or if the HDD designer got fancy
possibly 2 screwdrivers.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2002, 11:21 AM

I've disassembled HDDs before, so that's not the problem. Rather, the fact that you can no longer use it as such afterwards. :(
REMs are in the crafts section in the back corner of Wally-Mart. And sometimes in the hardware section. Rat-Shack has them
too.
I suppose a limpet mine would work too...sigh...but that's SOOoooo unoriginal... :rolleyes: ... <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p
Any progress Anthony?

Slow at the moment I'm afraid. I tried a batch of PETN with the NaNO3, the yield didn't seem too bad when I initially drowned
the PETN/HNO3. Because it was late, I left the crude PETN in the water, and chilled and filtered it the next day. I'm *sure* I
remembered there being a lot more PETN than I got, but PETN is insoluble in water.
Anyway, I wasn't pleased, I've got about 10gm of crude PETN from 20gm of PE!
So it's going to take a little while till I can fill a trinade. I'm going away for a week on thursday (Reading :) ) so there won't be
much progress any time soon...
OT: HDD magnets are Neodymium Iron Boron. You either get two big ones (two poles on each face) or four smaller ones. I've
got some of the smaller ones somewhere and they'll hold about 10lbs each. You don't need the correct torx driver either, a
drill does the job :)
xoo1246 August 19th, 2002, 05:46 PM

A nedodym magnet with a diameter of 16mm can hold ~7,5 kg(16.5 lbs if you prefer), and one with a diameter of 32mm can
hold ~31 kg(68.2lbs). They cost around 3.5$ and 9.8$. They could be used to make nice little clamp mines.
Another thing, what kind of igniter would thease tri-grenades be fitted with? A drag pull igniter that dissconnects after igniton?
How would they be constructed? Played around with some improvised ideas a few days ago but didn't come up with anything
reliable enough.
[ August 19, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
carbonated August 22nd, 2002, 03:18 PM

What if you simply made the trigrenade out of numerous cylinders to get the best of both worlds? If you made a pyramid out
of cylinders, even the edges and corners would really be rounded and thus allow some more shrapnel, whereas the regular
trigrenade wouldn't. I think you'd also have greater shrapnel increase overall. A problem I see is initiating all the cylinders to
go off together, perhaps with a uniform detonater in the middle of the grenade or would detcord be fast enough? Maybe even
some circuitry, but that gets too complex for my liking. An idea for crude cylinders is empty 12g CO2 cartridges or even small
diameter pipe.
Eliteforum August 22nd, 2002, 04:39 PM

It's a Tri-Grenade, not a 'friggin pipe bomb!
kingspaz August 22nd, 2002, 05:14 PM

i agree, its not a pipe bomb! but that post did give me another idea whihc would eliminate the shrapnel less space around the
trinade vertices. this would however be harder to improvise. each face of the trinade could be made from a convex section.
only slightly convex so it would still retain the tetrahedral shape but the slight rounded angle would result in a better spread of
shrapnel and no more 'safe' areas along verticies.
Cricket August 22nd, 2002, 10:01 PM

I did some grenade testing a long time ago. I got a BB covered strip of duct tape and wrapped it around a BP crater maker. I
was just having fun, so I didn't make any measurements. I did notice that at about 2 feet away the BB's were in the plywood,
just beneth the surface toi make a more or less smothe surface. It was ok for fucking around, but to kill reliably, I would want
something better for sure. It did make one HELL of a noise though (my face was about 3 feet away when it went. luckily it was
not on the BB covered side!). Maybe good for scaring away bums and stray animals. One thing I have been thinking of goes
like this. Get something round, about the size of a golf ball or bigger (maybe an Easter egg) and fill it with your HE. Then put
your detonator in it. Then put the whole thing in a baloon and leave the fuze/wires hanging out the top. Then fill another
baloon with BB's to about the diameter of a hairspray can. Then put your baloon-covered-charge with fuze/wires hanging out
into the baloon with the BB's and work it into the middle. I hope this makes sence, its hard for me to explain. So you would
now have a baloon full of BB's containing another baloon containing the charge and detonator (or just a fuze with a primary).
It would have to be tougher prolly if it were to be used in action, but this should work for testing. The good part is that it will
spread shrapnel everywhere, it should be somewhat moldable so you can put the charge closer to the bottom if you are
throwing in under a truck, or smush it a little flatter if its to kill people (to give more shrapnel to the siges, not up). It will need
to be modified if its to be used effectivly, the casing in particular (you throw it on concrete and it breaks and you are left with a
flash bang essentially). Seems to be a semi-good idea though. I think a problem with the tri-nade is that it has blind spots
and it looks like the sides will not disperse that well, maybe a convex buldge will help?
[ August 22, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
Madog555 August 22nd, 2002, 10:22 PM

carbonated's idea isnt bad. it would give more shrapnel than a simple sheet of metal and as kingspaz said it will eliminate the
safe zones. when u think about it a pipe full of HE with a grenade fuse is a crude frag grenade. pipe bombs that kewls use for
noise makeing are filled with a LE. this is stupid because it makes uneeded shrapnel and isnt good enough for spreading
shrapnel to be used as a good frag device. if a pipe bomb is filled with HE it is now a fairly efective fragmentation device.
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2002, 08:42 AM

The WHOLE point behind the design of the trinade is to:
A. Direct as much of the grenades fragments into an effective kill zone between the knees and top of the head of a standing
man within a 5 meter radius.
B. To direct as much of the fragments as possible over the head of the prone thrower that's 25 meters or less away.
C. To do both A and B in an enviroment that is flat and level, which is the vast majority of urban areas, and possibly devoid of
cover (such as a vacant parking lot).
And, you're not going to be tossing just one, since two (or more) is always better (RTPB: Victory through superior firepower) so
there will be NO safe spots. And there's no such thing as overkill when dealing with someone intent on killing you!
nbk2000 October 28th, 2002, 07:14 AM

I had the idea that a trinade would make a good bounding grenade.
Firstly, the fragmentation shell would be spherical, contained within a trinade shaped body.
Recessed in the center of the face of each side of the body is a small charge of AP or such which acts as a bounding charge.
This is initated by a 5 second electronic delay fuse after throwing. The fuze has a small positional sensor that conducts the
firing impulse to whichever side of the trinade is in contact with the ground.
The small AP explosion throws the trinade back up into the air. As the flame from the explosion passes through a small
flashhole in the body to the central core, it ignites a small amount of fuse powder. The frag sphere is supported within a
slightly larger spherical space, the fuse powder being in the space to ensure that, no matter what side functions, the delay
gets ignited. This, in turns, ignites a 100 millisecond pyrotechnic delay that explodes the fragmentation sphere at about 6'-10'
above the ground.
Or, if inside a room, explodes at ceiling height or bounces off the ceiling so it richochets in some random direction before
exploding at chest height. :)
I'd post a picture but, because of all the added traffic we got from the RC incident, I can't use my picture host. :mad:
Also, by combining two trinades, one regular frag, the other bounding, and connecting them by a wire of about 10 yards, you
might be able to make a decent IPDM.
See, one trinade has an IR transmitter, the other a receiver. When tossed, the two seperate and land. Anything gets in the
way of the line of sight between the two triggers the explosion of both. One directs fragments, claymore style, along the LOS,
the other fires up into the air to attack from above. :D
Any progress Anthony?
Anthony October 28th, 2002, 09:50 AM

The PETN I was saving up for the filler had to be disposed of, along with other finished explosives due to this RC issue.
I'm also waiting to get some better H2SO4 to make the PETN yields worth doing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]"
src="frown.gif" />
nbk2000 October 28th, 2002, 07:07 PM

Here's an illustration of what I mean by the sphere inside of a trinade.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Trinade_Bounding.gif" alt=" - " />
The purple squares are the bounding charges, the pink squares are spacers, and the gray sphere is the frag ball. The yellow is
the gap within which the sphere is suspended and (not shown) is the fuse powder.
I'm thinking the simplist way to make it work would be to use 4 small mercury switches. A switch is embedded parallel to each
face of the trinade.
Whichever face is in contact with the ground is going to have the part of the mercury switch with the contacts at the bottom,
with the circuit being completed by the mercury. All the other switches will be open because the mercury will be at the "top" of
those switches.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > gun turret
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phyrelord August 19th, 2002, 01:49 AM

does anyone have any ideas for making a remote controlled gun turret. it needs to support 25-50 pounds Capable of moving about 90 degrees from left to right and about 90
degrees up and down. All I need is a basis for the stand i'll mount my firing device on it. Should i use a motor or hydraulics/pneumatics. It doesn't have to be RC but i will
probabely have a line running from it with which to control the turret. Any input is greatly appreciated.
nbk2000 August 19th, 2002, 09:15 AM

What you're referring to is called a "telesniper". It's already a manufactured product ($50,000). Look in the archives for an existing thread about it (pictures and all) by me.

Building one of these is on my list-of-things-that-will-probably-never-get-done. I'd go for motor driven linear actuators (like car scissor jacks, satellite adjusters etc). They're
cheap, strong, simple and will hold position indefinitely. Depending on the speed you drive them at they are pretty precise too, even with a plain cheap dc motor (as opposed
to steppers).
xoo1246 August 19th, 2002, 05:26 PM

Reminds me of what was the name of that movie again, the jackal(modern version). Someone with access to a workshop, some technical knowledge and the resources could
build one. You could use one of these closed circuit cameras and connect it to a microwave link to give it a few hundred meters range in open terrain at best. What would the
cost be to build one, no weapon included? My guess is less than 2000$.

Remember now, your turret has to be strong enough to hold a weapon and manage it's recoil possibly many times. I think that you'd surely need some kind of gearbox
attached to a stepper motor and you'd need an brake of somekind to hold it in place.
I think that if you had some threaded metal shafts going through something like the bottom of a scissor jack you could slowly adjust the verticle angle of the gun while keeping
it very secure (for sniping not rapid fire) there would be jacks at the front and rear of the gun and some kind of hinge in the middle to allow it to move up and down but not
side to side. The jacks would hold the gun in place securely with some kind of hinge mounts of their own.
The left/right angleing of the shot would simply be controlled by turning the platform the gun was on.

Although you probably have good intentions, roguesci does not encourage members to reveal personal information, such as their postal address, tel/fax number.
[ August 20, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
xoo1246 August 19th, 2002, 09:08 PM

Something like this could be used for the elevation:
It can pull/lift 300N an operates at 12 or 24 v, although it's expensive, around 170$. Possibly you could build something like it yourself.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/electromechanic01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/electromechanic01.jpg</a>

I believe the greatest problem to overcome will be dealing with recoil. Unless you're mounting a rocket launcher on the platform, or using a small caliber rifle (smaller than a
.50B) you're going to have to build some rather heavy duty mounts. I'd also recommend using bearings for all the pivoting joints to ensure smooth operation.
Arkangel August 20th, 2002, 04:37 PM

The mounts would be a piece of piss I reckon. Make the structure pretty strong, if you can deal with the weight, and then sit it on some anti vibration engine mounts. There are
loads of that type of thing available, especially for boats. You could even pick a load up at a scrapyard

Surely for smaller calibre rifles you could weight them to decrease the recoil, and have the actions of the rifle on a sled, so when the rifle fired, the action travelled backwards
along the sled, compressing a spring or extending one. This would decrease the recoil, or at least spread it out over a longer period of time. I've read about a similar
mechanism in some mortors and also recoiless air weapons. I guess what I'm describing is a recoiless rifle :)
xoo1246 August 21st, 2002, 01:31 PM

Too bad most of us are into chemistry and not into electronics, programming and mechanics. Someone sufficiently skilled in the above arts could make a gun mount controlled
from a laptop via an internet connection. That would be interesting, remote controlling a weapon from the other side of earth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
parabolic August 21st, 2002, 03:50 PM

well,well, this sounds like a good project :) . would your turret have a gattleing gun attached or a single shot rifle mounted which would require you to load up after each shot?
as iam an engineer i find that you would be more concerned about the type of action you would use if using a self loading gun, as this would require alot of careful thought into
making, as the chamber pressure produced from a rifle is around 3000 bar to 5000 bar i would make sure my action would be able to cope with these pressures. but if using an
existing gun which has been "proofed" at a proofing house, then it should be ok, and you need not to worry about that, as for recoil you can use a method like what zaibatsu
described by having a slide with travels with the gun when recoil takes place, we have a rifle mounted on a type of sled, but instead of springs to absorb the recoil,
we use a ram, much like what you get on the back of a car boot, the parts that hold the boot open, you notice how the boot doesnt fall down because the ram cylinders stop
it, and no matter how quickly you try to shut the boot the rams only let it close at a certain rate, the quicker you try to shut the harder it is to shut. i would personally go for
this type of system to take the recoil out. but be very careful when trying stuff out.
we also used an electric trigger, which was basically a small electrical solenoid, which pressed against the trigger of the action.
para
[ October 15, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: parabolic ]
NoltaiR August 21st, 2002, 04:51 PM

Well to add to the idea of being able to control the gun with the internet, wouldn't it be nice to have it somehow controlled by a cell phone? I mean technically this is an age-
old idea, but if you could take it a step further so that there some sort of automated operating machine onboard that would answer your phone call similarly to how a calling
card service does? For instance when you call a calling card number you get something along the lines of:
'press 1 for english, 'press 2 for spanish, 'press 3 for assistance.'
But if you could set up your answering machine to say something along the lines of:
'please enter access code'....[pause while you enter code]...
'access granted. press 1 to shift gun 45 degrees to the right; press 2 to shift gun 45 degrees to the left; press 3 to fire'...
and so on.
But I guess, in essence, with all the currently available technology, anyone with the mind to do so could make a remote out of anything.
Anyways I don't think recoil is as big of a problem as most think unless he really is planning on working with anything that a single man couldn't fire while holding either under
his arm or on his shoulder. Just as the 'neck' which holds the gun and its armor up rotates easily by a sufficient motor (which wouldn't require much if the neck was well
lubricated), I think the turret should be able to fire as much as needed without problem.
Also a thing to think about (although this would probably be more for looks than anything unless you were planning on taking your turret into war) is the overall armor. This
may seem a bit obvious, but it is always important that you armor has no side on it in which an enemy bullet would have a (what I call) a maximum efficiency hit. Meaning
that the bullet should never direct all its force to the place it was aimed. By making your armor slanted, the bullet will always be deflected (usually in an upward direction) so
that only partial force from the bullet is actually given at the point of contact.
In fact, if slanted enough and by possibly putting some heavy duty grease on all the sides, an enemy weapon such as an RPG could be fired at it and it would simply slide up
and over without contacting enough force to detonate.
But then again many of todays newer RPGs (and similar weapons) have timers built in that correspond to the scopes on the firing gun, so that whether the RPG hit anything or
not, it would still detonate.
[ August 21, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
xoo1246 August 21st, 2002, 05:33 PM

A wireless LAN(around 2Mbit/s) can have a range of 5 km with propper antennas, that way you could have laptop on each side of the LAN and send everything on one
channel(using TV-in, a PC-controll card and some extensive C++ knowledge). The question is what uses it would have(except costing alot of money and time). Using a a semi
automatic cal .50 rifle it could be used for sniping as well as taking out armoured limousines. I have read you americans can buy them without too much trouble. <img
phyrelord August 23rd, 2002, 03:35 PM

what i have so far is a small scissorjack, a windshield wiper motor, a barstool swivel a sprocket off a bike, and an electrical engineer who is going to wire it for me. I'm using
an sks and a motor to drive the trigger. I'm going to work on a sled system for the recoil, and the engineer is going to hook up motion sensors for the time being later we will
experiment with types of remote to drive it. Ideally i want to hook it up so i can use a nintendo pad to control it. So far i have the top half made once it's done i will post pics.
It may be a while however. I also want to be able to put a paintball gun on instead of the sks. Thanks for all of the help. Any more input is appreciated
Eliteforum August 23rd, 2002, 04:10 PM

Hehe, A to fire, B to aim! :D
Die Another Day August 27th, 2002, 07:37 PM

I agree with zaibatsu...
Using spring(s) to deal with the recoil of the gun. I remember seeing a spud gun on xinventions.com that used springs because it had so much recoil.
Keref September 6th, 2002, 11:25 AM

NBK2000 you said that telesniper had already been discuted before and was in the archives with plans to make one. But more than half of the arcives are not accessible so
maybe could you post that stuff again ?
By the way is it normal we can't access archives later than july ?

I'm not in charge of the archives, so I wouldn't know. You could download the complete archive as a .ZIP file from the FTp...if you had a password...which you're not going to
get till you've proven yourself as a worthy member here.
Search the 'net dude. It's out there (telesnipers).
Keref September 6th, 2002, 12:37 PM

I gonna do that. But since you had told it was in the archives, why looking elsewhere ? i've not much time.
Don't worry about the FTP access, i'm not planing to ask one right now.
But check in the archives, in january 2001, contributions by Arthis. It used to be my pseudo, someone else has it now (fun !). I'm not a Kewl nor a newbie. But thanks for
answering.
Well, i did a search in Google as nbk2000 kindly told me...

I'm gonna search more but there is 1 answer to the search (at that time). This is a link to this one page, the summary is Nbk2000 who dreams about his PDF and a way to use
a
telesniper ...
:D
thx for advises nbk...
[EDIT: i searched on Google...]
[ September 06, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Keref ]
nbk2000 October 4th, 2002, 07:57 AM

Try this instead:
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=trap+remote+rifle&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1" target="_blank">trap remote rifle</a>
Or, you could have right clicked on one of the pictures, copied the URL, and pasted it into your browser, where hence you would have been taken directly to the manufacturers
homepage. I leave that to you. Really, learn some basic web skills, eh?
Axt January 29th, 2003, 12:30 PM

I had a simular idea years ago.. though on a far smaller scale. My intention was to rig up a small gun on a r/c turret and a small wireless IR camera so that it could be set up
over my yard.
The point being, when TV got boring one could turn it onto the "shooting channel" and comb the yard for cats, a noble cause, though one that didnt happen. I got as far as
making a very small single shot gun ( .096 cal!!) but was turned off the idea by the cost of the camera.
This thread re-kindled some interest in the project, since im now loaded with cash.
What sort of radio gear would be needed? I dont know much about what is available but I expect a 3 channel transmitter for turning, elevation and firing, but it aint that
simple.
Is there servo's available that would turn 360 and keep their position?
I tried searching but their doesnt seem to be any such thing available off the shelf .. but what 'may' work is a winch for a r/c sailing ship??? problem is I havnt seen a r/c boat
before and dont know how they work. Any ideas on the radio gear needed?
You can modify off the shelf RC servos for continuous rotation. One could be used to rotate the (very light) gun platform and the other one using a spring returned winch to tilt
the platform. The trigger solenoid could act directly upon the trigger or via a linkage.
Although personally, I'd have the servo arm make/break microswitches to control far stronger pan/tilt mechanisms.
I was going to find you a step-by-step for modifying servos but my ISP has had it's routing table corrupted again so I can't access Google.

Thanks,
Im just looking for something very simple or it wont happen. I searched google and found a few step by step's for modifying bought ones so its a valid option I guess, though
im pretty simple minded.
A servo will be plenty for the gun I made, ill try find it and post a pic, you could well call it a "pen gun".
Since its so small I was just going to attach the elevation servo directly onto the trunnion .. very easy, though it wont hold its position.

Considering the probable weight of a pen sized gun, I'm surprised a servo won't hold its elevation when not powered. A simple friction lock might help the problem.
nbk2000 January 29th, 2003, 02:24 PM

See how the <a href="http://www.spawar.navy.mil/robots/resources/gunpod/gunpod.html" target="_blank">Big Boys</a> do it.

Dont all servos reset to centre once the nob on transmitter has been let go? thats what I was refering to when saying that it wont hold position.
I was actually the one that posted that robotics site in the link/lit section. While it would be fun to have a huge turret .. I know I cant do it :( + a "Ultra Motion Smart Actuator
:confused: " sounds a bit high tech ...
[ January 29, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Axt ]

They do return to centre stick position, unless you switch off the transmiter before releasing the stick. Although that'd be pretty useless if you wanted to then press the fire
button :p
I hadn't thought of this because it's not a problem in an actuator switched by servo system.
<a href="http://www.motionshop.com/pr/ultrala.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.motionshop.com/pr/ultrala.shtml</a>
Those actuators with the big name are just a regular linear actuator (nut moving along a thread shaft), but is controlled by an EEPROM. It probably also runs from a stepper
rather than a brushed PM motor giving finer control.
It's a neat solution, as you could plug your RC straight into it (no servo), the IC could interpret the PWM signal given by the reciever and relate transmitter stick position directly
into an elevation position.
It certainly doesn't need to be that complicated though. As with a camera as a feedback you just tilt till you see your target and then stop it.

Well personally im looking for something that I 'will' do, that doesnt include these actuator thingys but I guess if you were going for a serious weapon they are what you would
be looking at using.
Im pretty set on servos, as I know I can get them. Also if I tried to make an actuator thing it would end up noisy, which isnt a big problem with servos.
Ive had a thought, the transmitter has them "trim" things under the sticks. Using the trim one could aim and it would hold position - though does anyone know over what
movement range the trim will adjust to?

I did briefly think of the trims, but they only move the servo by a few degrees, maybe 5 degrees. They really are only ment for fine adjustment.

If the trim idea is crap, I guess one could always pull the springs off the sticks on the transmitter so it will hold position, and use a large gear onto a smaller one to give 360
rotation (though you will lose fine adjustment).
Stoic February 2nd, 2003, 11:57 AM

<a href="http://www.anycities.com/user/thestoic/stoic001.html" target="_blank">http://www.anycities.com/user/thestoic/stoic001.html</a>
"The main idea of such a weapon is to keep a sniper out of the line of suppressive fire, while maintaining his own superior accuracy on one target or several targets.
The whole system consists of the following main components:
(A) T-2 remote platform with rifle and surveillance camera;

(B) T-2 Controller, with viewer (CP-076), Screen Switch, Aim Joy-Stick and Trigger;
(C) T-2 Interface Control Unit, with the Video Control Capability."
Intresting, as in another thread we were talking about GPS and cell phone jamming.
Now could the same be applied for the interface control unit and video display, jamming the signal both to and from the T2 unit?
Or perhaps overide it all together, and use it for your own needs! :D
Also, if there is a video display being broadcast. Would there be any way of piggy backing off it? So you could see what they see and thus, stay out of harms way as it were?
nbk2000 February 2nd, 2003, 05:29 PM

You couldn't jam a TRAP since it's hooked up to the controller by a cable, not an radio, connection. Thus it's immune to jamming or eavesdropping.
Jake Ellwood February 3rd, 2003, 03:27 AM

Just a heads-up on the servo modification, the current issue of NUTS & VOLTS has a complete how to for several popular models.
The author recommended using the Hitec brand because of low cost and ease of modification. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Energy84 February 3rd, 2003, 07:10 PM

Do you have a scanner by any chance? It'd be awful nice to have a copy of that article.
Axt February 4th, 2003, 12:23 AM

Jake, does the two winks on the end by any chance mean you wrote the article? if that is the case be good if you would upload the file.
I just pulled apart a transmitter, removed the springs and tightened a screw, so now it will hold its position. So in theory one would move the sight to near the target, then fine
adjust with the trim - should work.
I also contacted a hobby shop about sail winches, heres the reply -
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hi
We have a sil winch for $110.00 but they rotate 3 1/2 turns and are not proportional otherwise servos rotate 60 degrees.
Budget Hobbies <hr /></blockquote>So they will rotate plenty, and hold their position when the stick is released, im
not sure what effect the trim would have it though.
Jake Ellwood February 10th, 2003, 04:08 PM

Sorry I didn't write the article but I do have a scanner and it's only a four page article so I will get around to scanning it this week,but I don't have access to the FTP yet so I
can't upload it there.
Have a look at <a href="http://www.balsapr.com" target="_blank">www.balsapr.com</a> look at the bp148t rated at 100 oz.-in it should do the trick for you.
Also for further servo mods, look at alsrobotics.botic.com
concrete feet February 13th, 2003, 04:05 PM

on the subject of remotely controlling a _device_ over long distances i have a few ideas.
i am not claiming them to be the most practical, or even verry practical at all, but they are feasable.
first off, i like the idea of using celular transmission, as it can be done over long distances with less consideration to geography between A and B than wireles LAN, though the
limitations become clear when you want to stream vidio so you can see what is going on in front of the _device_ to be operated.
i also like the idea of using a laptop controller because of the ease of protability, it's opperation on independent power, and the fact that you can often pick up old laptops
(Pentium 1-2 or similar) for verry cheap. it is also easy to implement either a wireless LAN or a cell dialup as the software is already there and requires no custom development
on that side.
actual comunication between the laptop and the _device's_ electronic controllers is as easy as developing a simple device driver for SCSI comunication. although such a task is
beyond the scope of my programming ability (meaning that i could not give much specific advise), it is a simple matter of basic proficiency in any low level language (like c/
c++) and a desent understanding of ASPI standards, not too dificult for many.
i'm also giving some thought to the recoil supression mechanism and the hardware to make adjestments via electronic controll in real time (someone mentioned linear
actuators).
[edit: edited for poor spelling, and gramar]
[ February 13, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: concrete feet ]

Couple of things:
If you use a mobile phone, you might be found to have links to Ally Keeda (recently of Spain).
Sail winches are very powerful compared to other servos. They are also slower, and less accurate. Digital radio controllers will let you store positions, settings, adjust rates of
swing, etc. and, of course, you get to keep a hold of the expensive bit!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Not sure what to call it (bullet powered blowgun)?
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View Full Version : Not sure what to call it (bullet powered blowgun)?
darkdontay December 28th, 2001, 11:02 AM

Old question I had, had about a blowgun powdered by a blank.
1. It would be a device that is powered by the high expansive gases created but no bullet would be fired.
2. It would not have a bullet in the caseing just somethign to seal in the charge
3. it would use the gas to fire a Dart or bolt
4. it would be a single shot.
5. Could it be built with Polyvinly chloride or possibly AL tubing.
6.Basicly I was hoping to create a collective brainstorm.
Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas.
[ January 30, 2003, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]
darkdontay December 28th, 2001, 11:10 AM

Allways use the edit button rather then post a rebuttle to your own question. Scolds self.
[ January 30, 2003, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]

actually I have herd of pellet guns that get around gun laws by propelling a .177 or .22 air gun pellet with a 9mm blank. what you are looking for is blank propelled weapons, I
have herd of a knife that does something similar, you can fire the entire blade! Of course that has been illegal for quite some time. As for using PVC, I wouldn't PVC can give
out schrapnel and will only get up near 300 psi max for the thickest pipe and blanks can get up to thousands of PSI meaning a ton of schrapnel in your hands that won't show
up on an x ray. I would use metal piping for such a device.
------------------
Society creates the crime, the criminal completes it.
RTC December 28th, 2001, 01:51 PM

Pyro, do you have any more information on this .22/.177 from a blank?
As im looking into making such a device from a blank semi.
I've made a post about it on the <a href="http://surf.to/eliteforum">UK Forum</a> if you want more info on that.
[Edit] Sorry I got the link mixed up I put kickme.to instead of surf.to, however the direct link is <a href="http://eliteforum2.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/
000021.html">here</a>
------------------
We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to the influence of others. I will demonstrate the
true meaning of inovation for all you to see.
[This message has been edited by RTC (edited December 28, 2001).]

RTC, the UK forum link you provided goes to a 404'd page.
Did you give the right URL?
http://kickme.to/eliteforum
------------------
kingspaz December 28th, 2001, 05:44 PM

what i did post here now makes no sense and only adds to the confusion - sorry.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited December 28, 2001).]
RTC December 28th, 2001, 05:51 PM

darkdontay, It would be a good idea to download the "Breath Of Death" book from the Forum, I don't know if it's up there, but I downloaded it some time ago. (Before _C
went offline for a little while) So I should assume that it is still there for download.
------------------
We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to the influence of others. I will demonstrate the
true meaning of inovation for all you to see.
[This message has been edited by RTC (edited December 28, 2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Refillible flamethrower
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View Full Version : Refillible flamethrower

Recently I have been wondering if it was possible to convert a paint sprayer into a hand held flame thrower the idea I have is on a picture in the page below :
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/flame.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/flame.html</a>
anyone have any ideas on if this might actually work?
RTC December 31st, 2001, 01:10 AM

Why not just build a Fire Dragon?
However on your design, the pump/air bottal is a good idea in general, it's prone to leaks and seal ruptures, with the air hose that problem is resolved.
However it means you have to proide a constant supply of air, not good, unless you can carry a battery pack/generator on your back.
So in realism and just general quickness I would favor the pump over the air hose.
You may have to think of another means of ignition also. From my own experiments/tests a spark from those piezo[sp?] things havent ignited my flammable liquid tests.
Although the gas tests worked, so if your using liquid, a pencil torch may be required, unless you can spray the liquid into an EXTREAMLY fine mist, even then I have doubts.
But over all a good idea.
PYRO500 December 31st, 2001, 01:43 AM

I was considering using a flammable gas (possibly propane) as a propellant, the idea of a liquid flame thrower is that the vapors not the liquid itself burns, when it is misted the
liquid will form more vapors, a pocket dragon is fun but kind of expensive for fuel, a piezo ignitor may work if made right but needs to be adjused to work adequitely. I have
wondered about the ability of a blow gun valve to hold back propane, I think the liquification point of propane at 100 F is 172 psi and I think there are blow guns that can run
200 psi so maybee a blowgun with a special nozzle and a flashback arrester to make a fairly low flow flame thrower that would be compact enough for easy storage and would
burn inexpensive propane from those disposable tanks and could have a poilit light.
RTC December 31st, 2001, 01:51 AM

I just thought of this while reading your post so bare with me. It's not related to your post exactly but in relation to a refillible flamethrower as such.
Take an ordinary bike pump, put a small hole in it, fill with gas then press it forward (pump it) slowly forwards and light the escaping gas then once lit press the rest of the
pump (pump it hard) so all the other gas it pushed out fast igniting the rest of the gas in a 12foot flameball.
Considering if it'll work of course.
BoB- December 31st, 2001, 07:24 PM

hmm, what if the peizoid fails to work? it would suck if you had to click it a million times when you really needed it.
If your willing to spend some money you could use one of these trigger start nozzles as a pilot;
<a href="http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/pii/2/0/0/5/A5002_3.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/

EN_US/asset/images/pii/2/0/0/5/A5002_3.JPG</a>
<a href="http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/pii/5/2/5/6/A136525_3.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/

HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/pii/5/2/5/6/A136525_3.JPG</a>
Both of them run for about 20 bucks, if your willing to puke up some more money you could create a beautifully destructive unit, you could buy some gas fittings and use the
propane tank as a pressurant, and to power the torch head, it would suck down the propane pretty fast though.
It would also end up looking more like a rifle than your pistol like design.
I hope this post doesnt fuck up the new forum....
CyclonitePyro December 31st, 2001, 08:26 PM

A friend of mine built a simple device like a pocket dragon but refillable. He took an empty starting fluid spray can and cut a round hole in it and put a short section of threaded
copper pipe in it and glued it in, he can now pour whatever flammable fuel in it he wants and screw on a threaded cap. He cut another hole in the can and put the fill valve of
bike inner tube and glued that on. He just pumps it up with a normal bike pump and puts the can on a spray gun handle, with clothes hanger wire extending out holding a wick
wihich burns constantly.
PYRO500 December 31st, 2001, 09:18 PM

how did he make the holes in it? and what glue did he use, I have tried several times to do this only to fail. it would be cool to get a refillable arisol container to hook to a
pocket dragon. you could then add a custom nozle, such as the nozzles on spray shaving gel it lets the liquids come out in a thick stream. If I had a constant source of fuel I
could experiment with ignition sources for a pocket dragon besides the matchbook ignitor, I have been thinking piezo electric or the guts of a stun gun in the hollow handle to
arc across the stream.
bangandow January 1st, 2002, 01:16 AM

Would a simple Zippo attached to the front be efficient?
PYRO500 January 1st, 2002, 04:04 AM

nah, I can do beter than that, a zipp is light fire close, I want triggerpull fire, triggerpull fire, it seems like more fun that way, plys adds one hand operation eliminating the need
for a second hand and lets you have infinite time between shots such as, toast mofo's ass, 10 min later, toast mofo's cat.
Agent Blak January 1st, 2002, 05:31 AM

I prefer NBK2000's design and other similiar to it. I prefer them for the reason they are cheap and you can toss them away after. If the "pO pO" search my house and find a
packet of matches, tape, pistol grip(for paint can) and a can of spray paint(all stored in closew proximity) they can't do or say much. If they find a reusable/fill flame thrower
they will be like a pig in shit.
also I would empoly a 12g CO2 Powerlet for a preasure source instead of compressed air. The reason for this is; CO2 displaces O2 and will not allow the Preasurized container
of Napalm to ignite in side.
atropine January 1st, 2002, 04:42 PM

you need a wide nozle. :0) other wise youl get a spray. I had an idea using co2 cart's and filling a tube about the same width up with napalm and with the cart behind this all,
somehow you could puncture the lead cap at the top and you'd get a nice jet of flames as well as a co2 cart flying in the same general direction. Oh forgot bout the pen blow
torch too ignite the napalm as i exits.
blacktalon January 7th, 2002, 08:52 PM

All you need is an old garden sprayer with a brass wand. They generally have an adjustable nozzle. Adjust it to a solid stream and wire a small piece of wood to the end of the
wand. Fill the sprayer with White gas (Coleman lantern fuel). Don't use regular gas unless you want to cook yourself, and k1 doesn't burn.
Purple Fire January 16th, 2002, 12:04 AM

Just a thought, but if you took some wide (2" or bigger) copper pipe from a plumbing shop, screw end cap it, drill a hole in the end cap and braze on an attatchment for a BB
gun CO2 cannister. Then chuck a reducer on the other end followed by an elbow and a valve. Then get a nozzle of some sort that you could screw on, just match the thread
size on your pipe to your nozzle. You just screw the end cap off, fill it with stuff, screw back on and slam on your CO2 cannister.
Depending on the density of your fuel it might need to have the fuel tank at the top and the nozzle at the bottom, so the CO2 can float above your fuel.
Wearing insulated gloves might come in handy if its copper :)
RTC March 13th, 2002, 01:01 AM

Sorry for bringing up an old topic but I've just had an idea, I've made the paintballgun on Anthony's web site, and thought that if I fill the air tank half with petrol, then pump it
up, attach some kind of ignition device at the end of the "barrel" and fire it, would it work as a short range "flamethrower" ?
A-BOMB March 13th, 2002, 02:56 AM

Na, but a potato slug in the barrel then pour the gas down ontop of it and tir burning rag to barrel now shoot, now you got a flame thrower.
Anthony March 13th, 2002, 06:32 AM

It should work because you'll get a mixture of air and petrol spray being ejected which should burn more fiercly than petrol alone. Might be some safety problems with storing
the petrol mixedwith air though.
EP March 14th, 2002, 09:29 PM

A bit basic, but this may be useful:
<a href="http://www.howstuffworks.com/flamethrower.htm" target="_blank">http://www.howstuffworks.com/flamethrower.htm</a>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Recoilless Rifle
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View Full Version : Recoilless Rifle
BlackTallon January 6th, 2002, 03:34 AM

I am dreaming of a recoilless rifle, but not much is posted on this topic. I have the book floating around "Improvised recoilless rifle" or w hatever it w as called, but I am thinking
of something a little more advanced that the "cookie" launcher design. The thought of using a fairly massive weight to cover two large vent holes seems to have merit. When
the propellant was ignited, the projectile w ould begin moving, as would the more massive counter weight. Being more massive, it should have to travel a shorter distance to
counter act the recoil forces from the projectile. When the counter weight reached the full extent of it's travel, the gas could be vented through holes like a large mussel break of
sorts in the rear of the rifle. This would reduce the pressure in the barrel and should keep it recoilless. Then the counter weight could be returned to it's forw ard position with the
aid of a large spring. Any input guys?

Asides from posting a topic for your very fist post, spelling "Black Talon" (the bullet) wrong, and bringing up a topic that HAS been talked about endlessly, I'd also like to point
out the following fact.
"An object in motion w ill stay in motion till external forces stop it."
In other w ords, your massive counterw eight w ill continue to move after it passes the vent hole till it either flyes out the back (recoilless) or hits the back of your launcher
(recoil).
For true recoilless without a water/cookie/etc counterweight, you need 5 times the projectiles weight in propellant powder (smokeless) plus a rupture disk to build up the
combustion to critical velocity.
1 part propels the warhead, one part of combustion gases acts as counterweight, and the other three provides enough "ommph" to get it all moving.
BlackTallon January 6th, 2002, 07:26 PM

NBK,
Pardon the typo in my name and my posting so soon. I have a question however. Not to sound smart but, If this has been talked about so much, w hy can't I find it? I have
conducted a proper search. The only thing I came up with was something talking about that new 20mm/5.56 over and under combo they are making, (I don't recall w hat they
call it.), and a thread on Bazooka vs. RPG. I can find nothing dealing with an actual recoilless rifle. If there is something on here, please direct me to it.
""An object in motion will stay in motion till external forces stop it."
In other w ords, your massive counterw eight w ill continue to move after it passes the vent hole till it either flyes out the back (recoilless) or hits the back of your launcher
(recoil)."
I know there would be a little recoil, but how substantial would it really be? After the counter weight passed the vents, the pressure in the barrel would be reduced to nothing. If
timing and the spring pressure were right, most of the "recoil" caused by the weight hitting the back of the rifle could be absorbed. Anyw ay, if you have ever seen a 75 or 105
mm recoilless being fired, there is actually a bit of recoil. You could also use the vent gasses in my idea for a mild venture effect which would further tame any recoil that w ould
be present.

Venting the barrel/chamber gas does nothing to reduce recoil (unless the jet effect of the escaping gas is used to push the weapon in the opposiion direction to which it is
recoiling - like a muzzle brake). All it w ill do is stop thge counter weight from further accelerating. All it would do is store the recoil energy in the moving counter wight, which if
you don't w ant it flying off, must be absorbed. This puts you back to square one. A large spring would help but the counter w eight pushing the spring w ould impart recoil on the
gun.
Maybe fit the action on rails w ith springs or better, dampers and use a good muzzle brake.
It w ould help if you w ere more specific in what this weapon must be like. You mention "rifle" which could imply a 50cal w eapon, or do you mean something like a 110mm for
firing anti-tank rounds?
Arkangel January 6th, 2002, 11:06 PM

The system you are describing is not dissimilar to a blowback type weapon, where the light projectile is accelerated very rapidly at the same time as the (equal and opposite)
force is being applied to the relatively heavy breech block. In practice the bullet has left the barrel pretty much before the breech block has made any significant movement.
When it does begin to move, it does so w ith some force, and is then pushed forw ards again by the mainspring of the gun. That mainspring then exerts a force on the weapon
body, which exerts a force on you. If you've ever fired a blow back smg you will be in no doubt that the recoil is there, and is enough to push you and your aim all over the
place if you're firing a burst.
Scale it up (if that's w hat you mean) and you will have more recoil than you want to deal with. As NBK says, the only way you truly get a recoiless weapon is when an equal
part of the charge is directed to keeping the w eapon stationary.
BlackTallon January 7th, 2002, 02:15 AM

I think I w ill use this time to clarify myself a bit. What I am thinking here is a big bore, in the three inch category with a one or two pound projectile. Not a standard rifle by any
means. Something much like the military 75 mm recoilless rifles. All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic blow away plug and the complicated casing and venture system. If
you have ever seen a recoilless round, the casing is full of holes and there is a plastic cup like device that builds the pressure up as NBK mentioned. When the plastic thing
ruptures, the gasses flow out the holes in the case and through the venture. The venture accelerate the gases to the point that the forw ard force from the venture equal the
rearward force from the gases pushing on the projectile. This renders the weapon "recoilless." (Although there is a bit) I am thinking of a mussel loading weapon. I may be
wrong, but it seems to me, that if you had a 1 pound projectile, and a 2 pound projectile with propellant between them and it w ere ignited, the 2 pound projectile would move
half the distance of the one pound projectile in a given time. If that w ere true, a 5 pound projectile would move 1/5 the distance of the one pound projectile and so on. If barrel
length, projectile w eight, and counter weight were calculated properly, you could theoretically get to the point where the projectile w ould leave the barrel and the counter weight
would only move 2 inches or so. Now yes, the weight would smack the back of the action, but the velocity should be fairly low, so not much recoil would be generated in the
first place. I still w ant to vent the gases through venture like a mussel break, I just don't want them to be too complicated. That is why I was thinking about the vent holes. I
envisioned a 90 degree bend, and then some cones to deflect the vented gases to the rear.
Also, springs can be used to absorb quite a bit of recoil. If you have any experience with Barrett 50's there is a drastic difference in the recoil of the A1 and the 95. They are
basically the same weapon. The break is the same and everything. The semiautomatic A1's recoil is around that of a 12 gage shotgun. The 95 kicks the shit out of you. It is
more like a 300 Winchester magnum from my experience. The difference is only that one is a blowback weapon and the other is bolt action.
Now, as for smg's there is recoil, but the bolt weight has an effect on that too. They use fairly light bolts to keep the ciclic rate up. All that chattering back and forth jars you
around a lot, and you don't have much control. In an open bolt smg, when the bolt smacks forward, you are pulled dow n and left. When the bullet fires, you are pushed back
and right. When the bolt becomes more dense, the ciclic rate goes down, and controllability increases. Shoot a sten. They have a heavy bolt, and I don't think there is as much
recoil as some smg's with lighter, faster moving bolts.
http://ww w.roberts.ezpublishing.com/rarmory/rrifle.jpg
Anthony January 7th, 2002, 09:51 AM

Assumbing you have a 2pound projectile with a range of 500m, your counter weight, in order to come to rest in say 50cm w ould have to weigh around 2000 pounds. I doubt it's
that linear due to the different ballistic efficiencies of different size/shape projectiles.
Also your counterwight would have to open to the air as air resistance robs most of a projectiles energy. If it wasn't, you'd have to stop it by friction alone which would work.
Another great thing is that slow heavy projectiles (counter wight) have better energy retention than light, fast ones (projectile). So your counter wight w ould decelerate at a
much slower rate than your projectile (and it's got to stop in, what 2ft). This is because as velocity doubles, air resistance quadruples.

I'm not saying that the recoil on an smg is uncontrollable, or comparable with a 12 guage, especially .50 cal. Firing a burst from the sterling smg (L2A3 - as used by all the
imperial stormtroopers in Star Wars if you look closely) you can pretty much keep most of the rounds on a man size target if you practice. It is, however significant and it sounds
exactly the same principle as you describe for your "recoiless" weapon, w hich would at best be a reduced recoil w eapon.
The physics are simple, newton's 3rd law - equal and opposite reactions. You fire a projectile, that projectile is exerting an equal and opposite force on w hatever is pushing it,
either the gases pushing it from the front of an open ended tube with equal force going out the back of the tube, OR the gas/barrel system that constitutes the gun, however it
is operated.
Muzzle brakes are only marginally effective since they only work for the fraction of a second when the projectile is passing through the brake, and by then, most of the recoil
forces have been passed to the barrel.
I have to ask questions about what you actually w ant to achieve. Does it have to be portable/reloadable etc. If portability is important, your counterweight system is not going
to work. If it doesn't have to be combat reloable, then you could probably design something along the lines of a normal military weapon, just test it with different propellant
loads until you get it right. Of course, if you w ant to fire it personally from an enclosed space you're fucked. Tell you what, why don't you just make a normal barrel, then
wedge it up against the corner of a house or a big rock or something, that way there is recoil, but you don't feel it......
There was an interesting programme a w hile back called scrapheap challenge, w here 2 teams make something from stuff they find in a junkyard. One time they made a
cannon. The best one was made from a hydraulic ram body and w as firing a steel ball about 3" diameter. They first used bp, then a commercial propellan, but in both cases, the
recoil knocked the shit out of the carriages they'd built. Do let us know how you get on!

Anthony,
I mente inside the barrel. Once the projectile leaves the barrel, there is no more gas pushing on the projectile or on the counterw eight. (propellant gas anyway)
I once saw a recoilless rifle with a similar principal to the one I am thinking of here, so it can be done guys. I think It may have been Swedish. In their design, there was a
counterweight that weighed the same as the projectile, but the weight had large pop out fins on it. When it came out of the tube, it expanded, kind of like a backwards
umbrella. The counterweight did however, stay w ith the w eapon. The thing w as, their design was a one shot weapon kind of like the American LAW, only without the rocket
engine. I am thinking field reloadable and man portable. If you don't believe me, look in the big book of modern weapons (I think that is what it is called) It has a white cover
with blue lettering. I think there is a 66 mm flack cannon on the front of something like that. It show s a cross section and everything. Maybe next time I am out I will buy the
book and scan it for you. That would probably help.
Arkangel,
I know a regular old blow back system is by no means recoilless. The opposing force would be the vented gases. My idea would be more effective as well because you would
have the vent holes uncovered w hile the projectile was still in the barrel, there by using all available gas. Also, venture increase the velocity of the gases unlike a mussel break.
That should give you a little more oomph.

Oooooh, nbk got to you then. Personally I thought Black Tallon w as ok, kind of sinsister/dyslexic combined.
Anyway, the 66mm you describe certainly sounds intriguing, do please post something if you can.
I can see what you're saying about having the gases vented further dow n the barrel and a VENTURI would help increase gas velocity (at the expense of higher barrel pressures
- more force on projectile and recoiling w eapon), but really this is a variation on the traditional systems which work well in any number of configurations, you simply have a
single venturi at the rear of the barrel.
You seem insistent on the counterweight and I'm curious w hy, do you need to fire it from a confined space or something? If so, over what range? In WW2, British forces had
something called the PIAT, a Projector, Infantry, Anti-Tank. This w as realoadable weapon that looked like a weird bazooka, the difference being that the projectile was fired by
a spring.
<a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AdamWilliams2/piat.htm" target="_blank"> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AdamWilliams2/piat.htm</

a>
Check this out, but as you can see, it was hardly recoilless. Depending what you want though, it could give you a solution

That's a spring/piston airgun taken up a serious level! :)
That umbrealla counter w eight doodad would have had to dissapate it's energy by friction alone. Not a problem for single shot but practically impossible to make reloadable,
simply because of the force required to force the counterw eight back into ready-to-fire position. Wear and tear would also severaly limit the number of shots that could be fired.
What w ould happen is your counter wight system failed to operate? Would the recoil break your back?
What's wrong with having your launcher use a water counter weight that would be ejected from the rear of the launcher? It would be a lot simpler to make and easily reloaded
(have the water built into the round).
What sort of machinery do you build this weapon?
Arkangel, IIRC the homemade cannons had a bore of around 1.5" which show s that the recoil w as even more potent.
In regards to the effectiveness of muzzle brakes, I was under the impression that due to the velocity of firearm rifle rounds, the projectile left the barrel before the recoil
affected the shooter?

Yeah, it's a bit like the old long range crossbows, where they had a screw to wind the bolt back. I'm sure something neat could be made quite simply though.
A water counterweight is a much safer idea, w hat would be wrong with a balloon of w ater the same size as the projectile? Particularly if you are in a confined space.
So, you saw the show Anthony, lucky BASTARDS is all I can say, I laughed my arse off when the barrel came off the one built by those those clueless Army wankers. :D I mean
really, SSSB ammunition! (string stabilised, stuck in the barrel)
Regarding MUSSEL BREAKS (It's MUZZLE, not MUSSEL [shellfish] NBK2000) (sorry Blacktalon, but you'll get there in the end), ALL the recoil energy has been passed to the
weapon body before they take effect, but bear in mind that by the time it reaches the muzzle brake, it is at it's maximum velocity and the effect lasts for microseconds. Even if
all the effluvium w ere directed rearwards at that moment (and that might sting your eyes), it would not make that much difference. They w ork, but not so much that you
couldn't do without them.
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
YIKES :eek: - I don't know w hy you corrected my post nbk, as I'd have thought you would have spotted it first in the 3 or 4 posts of B/T's that I w as referring to. Maybe if
you're from the US, sarcasm is a bit baffling, but then having seen enough of your infamous work before, I don't think so. Whatever, thanks for your caring touch. ;)
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
Yikes January 7th, 2002, 06:14 PM

The w eapon black talon is talking about is the German Armbrust short range anti-armour weapon.
This is a very interesting weapon as it has NO firing signature: no flash, no smoke, quieter than a pistolshot, yet firing a "missile" some 300 metres!
How is this done:

A propellant charge is sealed in a strong tube betw een tw o movable pistons. In front of the front piston is the projectile (AT-warhead), behind the back piston is a folded
umbrella-shaped counterw eight.
On firing, the pistons move to the ends of the tube, propelling the projectile forward and the countermass backward. The pistons actually stop at the ends of the tube, keeping
all combustion gases in the tube. Projectile flies further to target, counterw eight leaves the tube at the rear. On leaving the tube, the counterweight folds open, drastically
increasing it's drag. There is no backblast, so you can fire the weapon from within a bunker, livingroom etc. (Try THAT w ith an M72 LAW!), needing a minimum distance from
walls of only 0.8 m.

Yes, I do like the counterweight idea because it would be useful in confined spaces. Most recoilless rifles have a danger area behind them of 30m. You don't even think of firing
them inside. You w ould be very dead. I am thinking of something useful out to 500m or so.
I have seen the PIAT. The only problem w ith that thing is it is a pain in the ass. I have heard it w as all a soldier could do to cock the darn spring (the link said something like
that too). I want to design something that can be transported, and served by one person.
I don't suppose there is anything wrong with a water counterw eight. The only thing is that it would add to the weight of the shells, further limiting it's usefulness to a single
person. The counterweight would add to the weapon weight, but that would be it. Water would add 2 pounds to every shell you wanted to lug around.
Yikes,
That's the one! Thanks a lot! What do you think? Could it be made reloadable? What if you had a propellant holder that was not a part of the projectile. Then you could refill the
propellant reservoir, push the plungers back in, and load a new projectile.

http://ww w.jed.simonides.org/support/law /armbrust_series/armbrust-title.jpg
<a href="http://www .jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust-series.html" target="_blank">Arm-burst</a>

http://ww w.jed.simonides.org/support/law /armbrust_series/armbrust/armbrust_005.jpg
here we go now. go to this web site.
<a href="http://www .jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust/armbrust-archive.html" target= "_blank">Arm-burst</a>
BoB- January 7th, 2002, 09:44 PM

Your kind've getting carried away, venturi nozzles would kick ass, but for the hobbiest theyre not really practical.
The exact weight of the coins your country uses shouldnt be that hard to find, a stack of coins wrapped smoothly in aluminum foil could have there combined w eight w ritten on
the side, the muzzle blast of the weapon w ould rip apart the foil dispersing the coins out the back of the weapon where they would lose velocity quickly.
Pill and film bottles full of sand or shot also come to mind.
Also, have you considered diameter? since recoil isnt an option 3/4" or 1" projectiles could be used, good luck finding "safe" sch. 80 pipe though.
JoeJablomy May 22nd, 2004, 04:31 PM

The idea here sounds kind of like something I think I saw on the Army Science Conference w ebsite, or maybe IBS. It's called a rarefaction wave gun (RAVEN), the basic principle
being that if you vent the propellant gasses at the breech when the projectile is already 1/4 to 1/3 the w ay dow n the barrel, the pressure drop does not reach the projectile until
it's already left the barrel. I'm sure this is partly because the greatest acceleration takes place in the first few inches of barrel and the round is probably already going supersonic
(probably not to the really-high-pressure propellant gasses, though) after the first foot or so.
It's pretty much assumed here that by "venting the propellant gasses" w e mean putting them through a DE LAVAL or C/D (NOT VENTURI, those are subsonic and totally
unsuitable for rocket propulsion) nozzle, w hich in this case would probably be nothing but an expansion cone.
The army test device consisted of a 25x137 barrel (25x137 is a NATO round, for those of you who might think this meant the barrel dimensions) and a spring loaded breech
block and used ammunition scored at the base to cause head seperation. The 'receiver' the barrel was screwed into had a divergent conical section that the block fit into. When
fired, the block recoiled at a rate determined by the mass and spring tension, the case head tore off, the gasses vented out the divergent nozzle formed by the block and the
breech itself, and the remainder of the casing Usually got ejected by residual pressure. Recoil reduction w as 40-60% , I think.
The heavy breech block moves less to the rear than the projectile moves forw ard during a given time, and also w ith less energy, in proportion to their mass ratio, true. The
problem is that any gun does the same, so if your breechblock absorbs recoil pressure for 1/3 of the time the barrel is pressurized, it has 1/3 of the recoil impulse a
conventional gun would have anyw ay. It has much less energy than the projectile, but to move 2" compared to a 60" barrel, it w ould have to weigh 30 lbs (1 lb projectile) for
your hypothetical 30mm gun, which is itself a bit too heavy to be portable. Actually, to give you an idea of w hat's going on here, the projectile w ill probably leave the gun in
1.5-2ms, which means your breechblock is travelling to the rear at 2"/.002s=1000i/s=83.33fps, which gives something like 3240ft-lbs energy.
This impulse will have to be transferred to the gun, which to reduce the energy to manageable amounts would have to be enormous. Of course, as I said, you might avoid 2/3
of this by venting, and if you make a really good nozzle, perhaps even an ejector of some kind, you might counteract even more. But it still wouldn't be very practical.
I guess there are two challenges that I in my crappy college apartment room can see to RAVEN design:
1. Valving. You want the ports fully closed for .0005s, then fully open within a basically impossible time frame, like w ithin another .00005s. Or you could settle for partially open
at .0003s and fully open at .0006s, although the beginning of the rarefaction wave w ould definitely hit the projectile and rob it of velocity. Either way, you'll have fun.
2. Nozzles. For this to work very w ell, you'll have to design a very good path from the breech ports to the air. As few sharp bends and corners as possible, I guess (not having
too much education in fluid dynamics). Then you have to have your expansion nozzle, w hich accelerates the gas to the highest velocity you can get. This is equivalent to
expanding it to atmospheric pressure, although how much expansion that is depends on the pressure of gasses going in, which varies, so you have to figure some compromise.
Also, w here along the length of the gun do the gasses come out? Is it a bolt action where the breech face, or, more importantly, the case mouth of the cartridge, w here you will
probably be harvesting the gas, is one or two feet from your shoulder? Or is it just a single shot bullpup? You could have a blast tube going over your shoulder (it's been done),
but that might take several percent off your nozzle efficiency, which could be unacceptable. What I w ould do is make two nozzles, each with a large rectangular or ovoid
opening to give tw o flat exhaust streams with air access between them and on the outsides, and this cluster would be right at the place where the gas is tapped off the barrel.
The exhaust/air stream would be directed through a larger divergent duct that w ould carry the gas over the shooter's shoulder. This is an ejector nozzle, where the hot
supersonic gas would combine with and expand/accelerate the air in the duct and some air that gets sucked in, thus increasing the propulsion mass and nozzle thrust. It's likely
that some of the uncombusted propellant gasses w ould also combust.
There are a number of drawbacks to ejectors (weight, size) , and ways they're ineffecient(difficulty in mixing hot and cold gasses). The mass would just have to be dealt with;
maybe it could be made from carbon/epoxy. The ineffeciency would largely be moot (assumption) because the nozzle would operate in pulses, and instead of trying to
continually draw cold air into a hot stream, the hot gas simply runs into it and pushes it out the back. I saw an abstract by some russians about jet ejectors that can mix in
either 50% or 150% air by disturbing or pulsing the streams; they hope this can compete with turbofans after further development. The twin flat nozzles are also intended to
increase the surface/interaction area for the air that does get pulled in the front.
Overall, I'd test this as a 20mm before moving on to bigger stuff. At least in America, all the necessary materials for stuff in 20x102 is readily and even cheaply available, if you
know where to look. It might be hard to adapt a vulcan barrel for this, though :(
One last thought on valving: if you use a gas piston to operate the valve, it doesn't have to have the same face area as the bore, w hich means it can be smaller, lighter, and
faster than you might think at first.
john_smith May 31st, 2004, 07:30 AM

AFAIK the PIAT round wasn't throw n by a spring, it had a propellant charge in its hollow tailboom. Basically it was a just gun "in reverse", the barrel was attached to the
projectile and the bullet/plug/piston/rod/whatever to the weapon. The rod also acted as firing pin, and w as blown back and automatically cocked by the recoil. Do a search for
"spigot mortars", there have been quite a lot of versions of them since the WWI, in all shapes and sizes. IMHO one would be a good choice for home manufacture since it allow s
for more freedom in designing the fins and the round in general. Of course, recoilless it ain't...
chemofun December 11th, 2005, 03:06 PM

Did the panzerfaust have a counter w eight or did it use a lot of propellant with a rupture disk? I have seen conflicting reports.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > In response to TINF's 'smoke grenade'
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NoltaiR January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 1 : 4 7 P M

W hy did the topic close?
Anyways I have som e info I would like to put forth on the idea o f KNO3/sugar...
W hen I was 10 or 11 years old (and th o u g h t t h e c o o k b o o k s w e r e t h e e n c y c l o p e d i a s o f e x p l o s i v e s . . m ore th a n l i k e l y b e c a u s e

they were the easiest to get a hold of) I cam e across a 'recipe' for a sm o k e b o m b i n o n e o f t h e c o o k b o o k s ( p r o b a b l y
plag uarized from the im provised m u n i t i o n s h a n d b o o k ) t h a t s a i d t o m ix 6 parts KNO3 with 4 parts sugar, let it melt on low heat,
pour into container and insert matches as fuses. I tried this little 'experiment' and here are m y findings (from what I can
r e m e m ber):
I m ixed the 6:4 in an aluminum pie pan and set it on the stove at low heat... well after about 5 minutes of waiting I becam e
im patient because it just wouldn't melt. Well co nsidering that I was in m y kitchen with the sink righ t behind me, I got a few
t a b l e s p o o n s o f w a t e r a n d a d d e d i t t o t h e m i x t u re.. it turned to a white paste which I thought looked 'm e l t e d ' e n o u g h . . . h e h e
I poured my mixture (approx. 3 pounds in weight) into a glass jar and in serted the m atches. By th e tim e it I got ou t s i d e a n d
i n t o a n o p e n a r e a ( m y property is about 20 acres so the walk to a big op en area was about 3 minutes from m y kitchen) the
p a s t e h a d c o mpletely solidified and it was rock hard. I ignited th e m a t c h e s a n d s t o o d b a c k , t h e s m oke was quite im pressive
and it blew the jar to pieces.
My conclusions/suggestions:
I n a g r e n a d e f o r m , you would need a tim e f u s e t h a t w a s q u i t e l a r g e ( s e e i n g a s h o w I n e e d a b o u t 8 m a t c h e s ) . ' C a n d y
propellant' is a rocket propellant m ade from 74.5% KNO 3 and 25.5% sugar (you don't have to be that accu rate, but
m a t h e m atically that makes fo r com ple te com bustion).
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
J January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 2 : 4 9 P M
The reason the other topic was closed is that KNO3/Sugar sm o k e b o m b s h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d m any tim es in the past. There's
n o n e e d t o b ring up the topic again un l e s s y o u h a v e s o m ething new to add.
nbk2000 January 12th , 2002, 04:59 AM

Here's another newbie NO-NO:
"Why was m y/their topic closed?"
If a topic is closed it's usually for one of the following reasons:
1. It's degen erated into a pointless fla me war, or a chat rooom.
2. It's a subject that has been discussed to death in a million prior postings. This is the catagory the "KNO 3 / S u g a r S m o k e
Grenade" topic is in. W e're trying to advance a little, not regress to shit that's already been discussed and solved years ago.
R e a d t h e ' 9 9 archives, you'll find plenty of KNO3/sugar posts to read there.
3. Pathetically kewl. Anything involving peanut butter and ajax C 10 plastique would fit in this catagory.
4. It's a whin y plea. "W ill anyone help me with m y super-JIFF C 10?! PLEASE!?" This was also one of TNIFs sins.
5 . D e e m ed worthless for any num ber of other reasons. W e don't lock threads because we feel like it, it's always for a reason.
If you R EALLY think the thread should be open, you can always e-mail Mega and explain to him why you believe it should be,
but don't be surprised if you try to log in later and find that you've been deleted.
T o d a t e , M e g a h a s N E V E R r e v e r s e d o n e o f t h e m ods decisions to lock a thread. But he has deleted plenty of kewls who
a n n o y e d h i m with whiny pleas to reopen their p athetic topics.
It's your choice.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > nbk's pdf / white resistance manual
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FragmentedSanity July 28th, 2001, 03:59 PM

Lo all http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I found a website the otherday calling itself the white resistance manual... Im sure most of you will have seen it.
Let me say I dont agree with the sentiments attached to the file but it does have a lot of stuff in it thats discussed here.
The thing that I noticed when reading the file is its vast similarities to NBK's almost legendary PDF file (if anyone hasnt read it yet... well you should)
SO Im curious - NBK - did you find the site and remove all the useless crap? or is some nazi leeching you stuff?
but all that aside if you havent seen it yet check the site out.
http://netzero.homestead.com/AquiliferPublications/files/WRMv2_4/MainPage/WRMMainpage.htm
later
FS
nbk2000 July 28th, 2001, 10:12 PM

I recently ran across the WRM and thought it better than most of the anarchist crap books out there.
Being a White Power advocate myself, it would seem inevitable that there'd be some overlap. And when I made the first NBK2000 pdf, it was using net sources, so the source
material was similar.
But I don't think there's any plagerizing going on.
------------------
FragmentedSanity July 29th, 2001, 08:17 AM

Lo again http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I agree with you that its content is better than alot of the crapbooks out there.... personally I could have done without the anti non-white sentiments. but I spose thats just
because I dislike everyone equally. Myself - Id replace how to kill "niggers" with how to kill mindless idiots.
I did think the page quite similar to your old website tho - and was just curious as to what you thought - wasnt trying to comment on your political views - because quite
frankly I read pages like yours and the WRM for the information on improvised weaponry and the like - what people do with it is there own business.
FS
AR-15 Man July 29th, 2001, 06:10 PM

I like the infomation on that site. I give it 4 outta 5. If it is accurate then I will try the 37mm launcher.
[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited July 29, 2001).]
AmonDin July 30th, 2001, 04:39 AM

I agree with all you vets, it does have some good information, if you can filter through the racial slant they seem to enjoy putting on everything, you might find some new
dream projects.
I'm not personally an advocate of any white-power organization, or black-power for that matter, I support their right to say whatever the hell they want. Thats how freedom of
speech is supposed to work, people can say what they want, and you don't have to care.
------------------
"When all else fails, just light their things on fire, people hate that..." - Fred
simply RED August 4th, 2001, 06:40 PM

I don't see why the white people are better than the black... I don't think that the niggaz must be tolerated or untolarated in the killing...
[This message has been edited by simply RED (edited August 10, 2001).]
DaRkDwArF August 9th, 2001, 07:53 AM

most of the site is down, maybe an update... aybe something worse...
AR-15 Man August 9th, 2001, 12:59 PM

Well I saved parts of the site on my computer incase that happened cause it was good material. I don't plan on ripping their site but one day if worse comes to worse I can
hand out CDs with information like that on them.
Tony Montana August 11th, 2001, 12:49 AM

If anyone wants that file goto:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~hand/montana/WRMv2_4.zip
And save it!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > .22 Minigun
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ST January 10th, 2002, 03:49 PM

Tried to think one up, but proved to be too hard.
Got as far as the picture above, its run via a starter motor, power is given to the motor the solenoid engages the cogs
together and moves the firing pin forward.
The barrels are now spinning so when the cartridge reaches the firing pin it trys to force its way underneath the stationary firing
pin, compressing the rim and firing.
I couldn't really figure out how to eject nor load the cartridges, as it would be moving too fast. Don't know if it would work but if
the firing pin was on a strong spring ( top right pic) the pressure inside the barrel might bend it back as its fired and blast the
spent shell out, where its deflected out to the side..
Anyone think up a way to load such a thing?
Sorry if you came in under a cool title expecting a good post, but i'm mostly posting this to see if the host will allow outlinked
pictures...
nbk2000 January 11th, 2002, 03:25 AM

The picture shows up fine.
I've got a bunch of scans from a book about the gatling gun that shows the operation of the mechanisms for firing, loading,
drums, etc. It's being included in the heavy weapons section of my PDF.
It's really quit ingenious how Gatling came up with it to make it work. He even made an electrically operated version at the
turn of the century that fired 3,000 RPM. The army didn't see any need for it at the time. HA!
An internet search using "gatling AND gun" will result in plenty of material to peruse through. Try "gatling AND video". ;)

All I found patent number 36,836 "Improvised revolving battery gun" Title; 89/12
Fucking long links, I tried to post a direct link for you but it got screwed up, so just go to uspto.gov
[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: BoB- ]
ST January 11th, 2002, 10:46 AM

The first link for a search for gatling AND movies actually gives movies of how it works is that why there is a ;) in your post NBK
:)
<a href="http://www.gatlinggun.net/" target="_blank">www.gatlinggun.net/</a>
Its not backyard simple, but still simple design...... but uses a big fat arse "cartridge" that cant be substituted for .22's.
Perhaps if you add extractors and have it chamber the whole round, or a sheath around the .22 it could work, but this
complicated and this small you would have better luck making the original.

For some reason no patent pictures work for me. Same goes with a number of different places, must be something up with my
internet settings or something, crazy.
nbk2000 January 11th, 2002, 11:46 AM

I knew that if someone looked they'd find them. ;)
They use the cartridges to avoid the Destructive Device classification a gatling using modern cartridges would have, similar to a
machine gun (which it is).
If one were to use cardboard tubing of the proper size as cartridges, cap gun percussion caps, Vit C propellant, and 3/8" steel
shot, it should be fairly simple to replicate.
But adapting the mechanism wouldn't be THAT hard. I've even seen ads in various gun magazines for plans and parts to
make a .22LR gatling replica.
You wouldn't want to bother with the full replica, since I'd imagine the idea is to make a portable version to carry around ala
Jessie Ventura in Predator. Feed mechanism would have to be some kind of chain-link to ensure a constant supply of ammo.
Maybe if you were clever, you could come up with a pnuematic device that would blow the rounds down a flexible tube into the
gun which would then load them in.
And you need a TIFF browser plug-in to view patents on the USPTO site. Look up "alternatiff" on the net for one.
zaibatsu January 11th, 2002, 02:39 PM

<a href="http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-
gun2.htm</a> this might help a bit, but it may be a little simple for you
ST January 12th, 2002, 02:15 PM

Theres no such thing as too simple, the whole point is to do it as simple as possible, i spent all night looking through that
site, thanks.
The problem i see is that there is a lot of parts that have to be made identical, i'd hate to try making all the springs and firing
pins etc. for every barrel all exactly the same, you would end up with some working some not, its best to keep all the fiddly
parts together in one action so it either works or doesnt at all so is far easier to fix. Also that many moving parts on
something this fast is bound to be troublesome, may work with a gatling gun but a minigun?
The whole point to using .22's is to have it inexpensive and easy to run, imagine trying to make a few thousand cartridges
only to last a minute or two.
From what I gather from the pics, the "cartridge" in the gatling gun isnt even chambered when its fired, its just pushed up
against the barrel, so a heavy sheath around the .22 could be used, but again ... a few thousand custom .22 sheaths doesnt
sound cheap.
So, personally i dont think it can be done without chambering the whole round, heres what i come up with, it assumes that the
case can be ejected via the pressure in the barrel on firing.
<center>
http://st.9f.com/action.gif
Are these pictures still working? If not, picture above is bottom pic in signature.
</center>
As the round fires, the firing pin is forced back and case ejected. At the same time another is pushed into the next barrel by
the other end of the "arm". You probably wouldnt be able to get the cartridge fully chambered fast enough, so a ramp could
be used to gradually feed the round in the rest of the way as the barrels spin.
[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: ST ]
[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: ST ]
skumjustice January 9th, 2004, 08:58 PM

This is how a minigun/vulcan works internally. This is a freakin awesome 3dcad video. Finally it all makes sense!!!
ftp://coz-fx.com/download/CozGau17.avi
angelo January 10th, 2004, 03:18 AM

very nice video, it shows just how complex it is.
It seems if you have speed control included than you won't have to fire at full rpm, thus not wasting 4000 rounds in one
minute.
DimmuJesus January 10th, 2004, 09:34 AM

There are some people that make gats out of AK-47s and Ruger 10/22s. This idea may help in some way, I believe I saw a
couple, or at least ads for people who will make them for a cost if you supply the guns at www.gunsamerica.com

Sorry, I have to ask this...
Why have a big heavy multi-barrelled minigun/gatling gun, if you aren't going to fire at 4000rpm?
The main problem with all these designs is the ammo feeder. Has anyone thought of a good way to feed the beast without
spending hours putting bullets into clips, belts, feeder cartridges, etc.?
Also, you will want some kind of brass-catcher or collection shoot.
The gatling gun design is actually very simple. Try to visualise just one barrel the whole way through the firing cycle. Forget all
the other barrels, as they are exact duplicates, just at a different point in the cycle.
From empty, it picks up a loaded cartridge, then the bolt gets closed by a rod pushing it forward. The firing spring is cocked as
this happens, the opposite of most rifles. Once the breech is closed, the spring is released, firing the cartridge. Next, the bolt
is opened and the case ejected. Then it picks up the next cartridge...
The firing speed is completely user-selectable, within the range of the torque provision of the drive system at the lower end,
and failing to feed or melting the barrels at the upper end.
charger January 10th, 2004, 11:53 AM

someone has already made a 22 minigun, you can see it here http://www.montysminiguns.com/brian.htm

montysminiguns.com rocks big time! Check out the minigun video under August! http://www.montysminiguns.com/
miniofthemonth.htm
maarten221 January 12th, 2004, 11:25 AM

Should make light work of jackrabbits! As for the loading chute - since it is .22, a relatively forgiving round when it comes to
loading, you may want to look at a spring loaded system, much the same as on the FN P90, but without the rotation stage.
This will allow the use of large magazines or chutes with minimal effort in loading since the only requirement will be that the
rounds all face the appropriate direction.
foxrdkll January 12th, 2004, 06:41 PM

I like the posts you guys. I'm new and I appreciate the fact that you all know what you're talking about and you do your
research!
The CAD video was awesome! It shows a fine piece of machinery. I've got a question though. Why not have a design much
like what is in Bill Holmes book on the .22 machine pistol (i.e. loading mechanism w/ magazine) only with rotating barrels? It
would still offer a little barrel cooling time. One person mentioned the rate of fire; is this one of your desires for the design?
"Why have a big heavy multi-barrelled minigun/gatling gun, if you aren't going to fire at 4000rpm? The main problem with all
these designs is the ammo feeder."
So, I guess what I'm getting at is what are the objectives/desires in this design? ROF, barrel cooling, loading mechanism,
weight, etc.?
FragmentedSanity January 14th, 2004, 06:19 AM

"Why have a big heavy multi-barrelled minigun/gatling gun, if you aren't going to fire at 4000rpm?"
I think the Ideal application for a multi barreled .22 would be as a sentry gun, controlled via remote - or by movement
sensors when activateds. Would be quite a good defensive weapon. A couple of servos to aim the thing - or travel in pre-
defined patterns. As such it wouldnt have to fire ultra fast - obviously it would be preferable to control the firing rate remotely
as well - but even 20 rounds per minute would deter most assailants. Of course being able to up the rate to 500 rpm on
demand would be helpful and not hard to incorporate in the design. 5000 rounds in a gravity fed magazine system would buy
you considerable time to make good your escape while they believe your shooting at them - I spose with enough guns you
could remotely defend an entire compound. Incorporating a self destruct - in the form of a big claymore - when it ran out of
ammo is another defensive measure. It would be nice if the self destruct could seal the entrance it was guarding as a final act
of defiance.
The Main point is the a slower rate of fire would be quite efective -and even better in some situations : imagine 5000 rounds
at 100 rpm giving you 50 minutes of constant firing. No one would want to enter its line of fire and if the did they would sustain
multiple hits in very little time.
IMO thats a much better idea than having a gun that will cut down most anything in its path but only works for a minute or so.
Such a weapon would also be great mounted in a vehicle, as an offensive weapon; in which case the higher firing rate would be
better. The idea being to drive in - lay out as much lead as quickly as you can then drive off.
What it comes down to is that a high firing rate is more likley suited to offence, slower to defence - so the weapon needs to be
designed with a purpose in mind. Having variable speeds would be the best idea tho - making the guns more adaptable.
Another thing to think on is that if you make one of these you can obviously make more - so if you really feel the need to hurl
copious amounts of lead around you just add more guns. 5 guns firing slower would put out just as much lead as one fast gun
- but in a more random pattern assuming the guns were all set to shoot a different pattern - and without the problems of
barrels overheating. 5 guns in 5 different locations is also a lot harder to neutralise than one single gun.
Many other ideas for sentry guns were discussed by NBK in the BB macine gun thread, I believe most of it could be applied to
a .22 mini gun.
IMO even if you wanted a "Predator" style gun it would be best if you could alter the rate of fire - slow to provide covering fire
and faster for attack. It just seems a waste to fire thosuands of rounds when after only a minute or so your empty and
vulnerable, when you could still have a very rapid rate of fire but have a lot longer firing time.
Blackhawk January 14th, 2004, 08:34 AM

You woudln't be vaunerable, as a you are now carying a big minigun shaped club :P Serriously though, wouldn't 50mins of
constant firing overheat the barrels? at 500rpm each barrel would still be firing an average of 1.4 rounds per second
(assuming 6 barrels), thats not much but I would think it would add up. Of course a simple water jacket around the barrels
would help a lot. But then there is still the matter of designing and building several miniguns, say 5 to defend an area, and
then loading 25000 rounds into them (5000 each) for the coming gunfight. Oh and you would have to buy 25000 .22 rounds
at once and try not looking suspicious too.
PHAID January 14th, 2004, 08:38 AM

The purpose of the minigun concept is that it keeps the barrels cool because they each have a short time that they are emty
and exposed to the air.
The other good thing is that they dont jam, if you have a missfire it just keeps going and drops the unfired round.

Blackhawk, you could buy the ammo straight from the manufacture. I am sure it would be very common for them to receive
orders that size from gunshops, clubs, etc.
And in FragmentedSanity's example, to keep firing for 50 minutes, they would only be going at 100RPM, not 500.
foxrdkll January 14th, 2004, 03:50 PM

What about a design that incorporates multiple barrels but with a single bolt? This could simplify design, construction and
reduce weight. You could also include a separate or secondary ejector to allow for increased speed or a safety check. Then
again, I don't know if this would produce too much of a problem with the bolt overheating if fired at an extremely high rate of
fire.
irish January 14th, 2004, 06:35 PM

As far as buying 25,000 round's of .22 ammo goes those 5000 round "case's" that most gunshops sell come in a pallet of
50,000 rounds, I'm sure if you told them you where buying for a group of mates they would sell you a pallet with no questions
asked (apart from maybe how you are going to pay for it :D ).
CommonScientist January 14th, 2004, 07:14 PM

ST -
"its run via a starter motor"
Im pretty good with automotive parts, so im pretty sure that the starter motor wouldnt work. Reason being that they burn up
often on cars. It has limitations, you should only have it on for 30 seconds or less. Just trying to help.
Blackhawk January 14th, 2004, 09:27 PM

Starter motors in cars, especially with 6+ cylinders are under a lot of strain with very little cooling, try turning the crankshaft of
a car and you will know just how much In comparison to this while heavily geared I think a .22 minigun would not be too hard.
That and you could have active cooling via a fan directly attatched to the main shaft blowing air over the motor.
xyz January 14th, 2004, 11:14 PM

Commonscientist, your sig violates the rules. Please change it to something 3 lines long or less.

Since when is a minigun going to be fired for more then 30 seconds continuously, and even then it aint the starter motor that
will melt first.
Blackhawk January 15th, 2004, 06:28 AM

Well it is firing at a very low rate, and as a constant cover fire so you can get away, it is not like you are holding it, as stated
above it would be part of some kind of autonomous tripod.
Dave the Rave January 15th, 2004, 10:58 AM

I like the idea of only one bolt and one firing pin, where the mechanics of feed and unload can be made by guiding rods.
The motor rotates a endless screw, which engages on the rod of the bolt, pushing it back and forwards, thus opening the
chamber, feeding the cartridge, closing the bolt and firing the gun.
Then when the chamber is open, a bullet is taken of the clip and put on the port. As the bolt moves forwards, it pushes the
bullet to the chamber, closing it. With the chamber closed, the firing pin is free to disengage the rod, firing the weapon. Then
the screw engages again the bolt, taking it backwards, opening the chamber and extracting the bullet to the port, then the
gravity do its trick
Or, the idea of guiding rods can be used on multiple bolts and firing pins:
After the shoot is fired, lets say, on the 3rd or 4rd barrel, the bolt engages the rod on the chassis of the gun. As the barrels
rotate by the motor, the bolt follows its guide and moves backwards, opening the chamber and ejecting the spent shell. Whit
the chamber open, it strips one new cartridge off the belt or clip and disengages the guide, thrus closing tbe bolt. as soon as
the now feed barrel reaches the line of fire, another rod disengages the firing pin, firing the weapon. All these steps can be
acomplished by the rotation of the axix by the eletric motor, without any need of gas operated systems.
Tube January 15th, 2004, 01:56 PM

here's a cool site you guys might want to check out if you haven't allready.
http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm
This is more of a history of the gatling gun development, as opposed to a 'how to make your own' reference. But, i saw a few
references to the portable "Predator gun" in this thread, and the author of my link gives a good spin on how unrealistic the
actual idea of a portable hand held minigun really is. (I understand that the predator gun was at least a .223 and this thread's
about making a .22 so their would be a world of difference between the two. But, nonetheless the link's still a good read)
Aside from this little minigun section, it's a great gun reference site in general. so, if you're bored it might interest you to
browse the rest of the site.
*this is my 1st post, so hopefully i'm not breaking any rules or getting too off topic here....
pest3125 January 15th, 2004, 03:38 PM

Might be too much to ask for, but some sort of 'hopper feed' would be good - so you can dump in more ammo into a bin
without worrying about filling magazines or belts ...
CommonScientist January 15th, 2004, 06:37 PM

Well its not that it "melts", it just burns out fires and such in it. And it has enough tourque in it to power a 40mm minigun with
6 barrels. So it might be overkill. You could use a motor from a vacume cleaner, but you would need to convert your power
supply to a 120 volt system for maximum efficiency.
I thought the predator minigun was a 7.62 : .308. and the terminator minigun was the same one with a different grip/handle
style.

I saw an ad for a .22 Gatling gun in Shotgun news last night - if you could desigh something similar and instead of a hand
crack, add a motor (low RPM) to it, it should be able to reach the 2000+ RPM ranges - taking into consideration the metals
used in construction and the appropriate gearing. Looks like a Hella lotta fun though! Keep the hand crank and attach when
showing the weapon off or when it is in storage, because that keeps it legal (sort of). The mag on the Gatling is a chute and
the ATF doesn't seem to mind those with the higher capacities. I'll look up the website for the gatling when I get home and
post it - very useful info and you can "purchase" blueprints - not that it sounds like y'all need them.

HEre is the link: http://www.gatlingguns.net/

Using just one bolt and firing pin would be a bad idea! You then have a single point of failure! The iring pin breaks, and you
are looking like the biggest loser!
Also, I think it likely that the heat build-up might cause problems as the bolt would get hotter, and hence expand faster and
further than the barrels, which could cause a jam.
tiac03 February 3rd, 2004, 11:03 PM

A few questions
1. Does anyone here actually know what their talking about? Some have had some good points but most of the stuff written
was rather useless. Now I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about when it comes to gun design, but some of the crap you
are offering is just that.
Today lets just talk about the firing pins.
A) They call it .22 rimfire for a reason the "primer" runs along the rim and this is the reason that the firing pins on .22's arn't
centred. This being said all your drawings have centred "pins".
B) a single firing pin any way you think of it is a stupid idea. Think of it this way a firing pin is made to hit a stationary object.
This said all the strength of the firepin is due to the fact that the shock goes through its length (example of this is a nail). Now
as soon as this single firing pin hits an object, that, rather than be sitting still (relative to the pin) has a side ways motion, it
experiences a sideways push (take a dowel and touch it to the outer edge of a drum sander and you will see what I mean).
This will have you going through more pins than rounds.
Anther problem with the stationary pin is that it has to be really timed well. These things combined also ruin your "grenade
striker" looking firing pin idea. Rather than fire the round it will just rip apart your cartridge or get riped off itself. (also
ultimately cutting a groove (sp?) into the "face" of your "advanced thread spooler")
To solve this whole problem just have pins that strike the round but rotate with the barrels. (look up the circular ramp design
from the original gatlings probably the easiest)
2) Now for some of my ideas on how to make one of these beauties.
A) For ejection and intake once again following the original gatling is the way to go. (where the round sits is only half a barrel
but once it gets to firing position there is a block that completes the barrel). This makes for easy intake and drop out ejection
(as half barrel part becomes inverted shell falls out).
B) Whats the point of a big assed 6000rpm gun (the predator one only fired at 3000 because they had to hook up a 12 volt
rather than a chopper 24 volt batt, and it didn't have enough juice and that was still quick). My advice is the smaller the better.
(I assume since you are willing to spray that much ammo per min you arn't worried that much about accuracy). Use the
shortest (practical) barrels possible, and keep the weight down. You are using .22 rimfire not 7.62 (.308). You don't need
heavy or long barrels. (.22 is only good up to about 100-150 yards anyways)
C) If you keep the weight down you can then use something such as an electric or battery powered drill as what drives your
gun. OR for those who have seen the gas powered drills in action can think about how amazing the thing would work, look, and
sound.
Contrary to popular belief it isn't anywhere near easy to build a gatling gun. To make matters worse your plans revolve around
a gas operated ejection (I think). Now unless you are an engineer who specializes in weapons systems I doubt you can
accomplish that kind of ejection system. ( You first off need enough pressure to allow the gas to escape out the front of the
weapon rather than ejecting the shell and having the "projectile" lodged in your barrel because all the gas went out the back
(probalby F*cking you up in the process). If there is too much pressure on the back of the case the round will go out but the
case will either stay in the barrel or eject half way and jam your little toy. (The whole point of a minigun is that it fires quickly
without barrels heating up too much, and it doesn't jam)
Well I think I wrote too much already....
JoeJablomy February 4th, 2004, 02:06 AM

Aaarrgh.
1.You cannot, or at least would be a dumbass to, use one bolt for all the barrels. Not because it would overheat -the bolt,
much unlike the barrel, is never in direct contact with 2000 deg gasses @ 20KSI or whatever pressure .22 gets up to. The case
is, but it gets thrown off the bolt before it can transfer much heat. The reason you don't use one bolt for all the barrels is that
then that bolt would have to move back and forth really fucking fast as each barrel comes into alignment. One bolt is used for
each barrel because they are not actuated by some kind of 'rod' but by a really big elliptical cam around the outside of the
receiver, and if it's a gatling gun then each bolt can only move back and forth relative to its own barrel. Does this make
sense?
I haven't read the links, because they don't seem to work, but if you look at a good picture showing the inside of a gatling
gun the above should become obvious.
See
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/nrtc/14313_ch6.pdf
2. As for .22 LR ammunition and its handling by a magazine: What the . are you thinking, maarten221? The P90 fires a
rimless centerfire cartridge, and yes, that one is pretty easy to handle, including feeding it through a P90 magazine. The
problem is that .22 is not rimless. It is rimfire. It has to have a rim. And that rim catches all fucking manner of obstacles that
cause stoppages, including the rims of other .22 cartridges like the ones after it in line, which do not want to be removed from
the magazine at the same time as the one first in line. In short, the magazine/feeder will be the biggest problem, if you want
it to have a decent capacity.
3. As for the rate of fire: If you want a 100 rpm .22, go to your local suburbanite friendly, consumerist bitchgunshop, and buy
one of the exceedingly common semi-auto .22's. You can fire 100rpm from one of those by hand. You do not need a gatling
gun to do that. Also, a drone gun that fires .22 at 100 rpm will not deter -anyone- except your mom. There are faceshields
that can stop .22. Also, NO ONE tries too load a gun with enough ammo for 50 min. of continuous firing, unless they think
they're going to be shot dead and not be able to reload the gun and don't realize that a .22 gatling gun could be taken out by
piggy with the .50 cal sniper rifle once everyone finds out where it's located.
4. Heating: .22 doesn't heat up barrels very fast. What makes to biggest difference in barrel temperature on my .22 semi-
auto is whether or not it's a really bright day and not really windy. Also, gatling guns are actively cooled by a very obvious
mechanism: the barrels are whirling around in the air really fast. This induces the air to flow around the barrels, and cools
them when their temperature exceeds that of the air.
To build a .22 nanogun firing @3000rpm, about the minimum acceptable capability for such a weapon, [and 20sec. is a long
time for continuous fire] you could try to make it self powered by blowback as the original post seems to imply, but you
absolutely need a bolt for each barrel to confine and support the case head and rim during firing. The reason is the same
reason rimfire cartridges are always small and weak: the rim has to be really thin for it to work, and thus cannot hold 50 KSI
internal pressure like a good rifle round. Rather, the rim and head must be well supported to hold up to the pressure the
ammo Is loaded to, and a chambering "ramp" with a fixed firing pin will not provide this support. What would is a tiny little bolt
with a fixed firing pin/protrusion that would dent the rim just as the round is fully chambered. Since this is a .22, this bolt
would not even have to lock to the rotor stub. A good picture of a compact gatling bolt, for the GAU-8, is at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2222826775&category=588
But please understand that most of the protrusions at the front are for locking and are, as stated, thus unnecessary for this
design. In fact, with a properly designed cam, the bolt would begin blowback as the round goes off, just as in any other gun,
and would drive the rotor by driving itself along the cam. Alternatively, the cam can be designed with a slight flat to keep the
bolt closed during firing, with the drawback that it would necessitate an extractor.
To drive this gun, do not use a big, heavy ass car starter motor. Use a cordless drill. In this one package you have a pistol
grip, trigger, battery, and geared, high torque motor. You even have variable speed. Just remove the chuck and thread a hole
in the back of your main rotor for the shaft, and make the required mounting brackets.
Other notes:
Speed is necessary for the functioning of a fixed pin firing system. Elsewhere in the forum you will find it repeated that what
sets explosives (like the lead styphnate priming compound in the ammo) off is both force and speed. I doubt you would have
enough speed in a gun operating at 100 rpm to successfully fire .22 ammunition by anything but a spring loaded striker.
For feeding, which as stated is a much more complicated problem, I would use a single stack/column drum, pretty much a
normal one. I would make it the size of a good submachine gun drum -after all, that's what this basically is- and with .22
ammo that size could contain at least a few hundred rounds. I would really avoid the helical drum despite its much larger
capacity for reasons you should find obvious (see the second half of that pdf on vulcan installation). Reasons like you could
never get the f**king thing to work.
As for belt feeding, .22 would have to use a pull-out belt, which is less than ideal, although the GAU19 does it. The bolts would
have to have extractors on their outer edges to pull the round out of the belt, which would be pulled in by teeth on the main
rotor, as the previous rounds are fired and the bolts blow back. Then again, that would screw up ejection. I don't know how
you'd do it. But the belt wouldn't be that hard to make; you'd just use a flexible plastic strip for the base and maybe heat seal
another strip onto that as the loops.
I should warn you though: gatling guns hate belts. Miniguns especially, although newer, more advanced designs can obviously
take them without jamming too bad. The problem is, we're not even to a basic design yet.
Unless you can get/make re ally lig ht minimum contour barrels, I would u se ma ybe 3-5, which could make a pretty compact
gun, too. It might be possible to make .22 LR barrels out of some king of stainless tubing.
One other topic that would bear a lot of discussion is how to make a receiver with an elliptical cam track on the inside.
ST February 12th, 2004, 06:07 AM

A) They call it .22 rimfire for a reason the "primer" runs along the rim and this is the reason that the firing pins on .22's arn't
centred. This being said all your drawings have centred "pins".
No matter which way you look at it its going to be centred from one point of view. Now, the most logical way of positioning it is
as ive drawn it, with the "firing pin" being a horizontal ridge to hit the full face of the case, thereby giving it the best chance to
get a positive hit. Not to mention the main idea of using a stationary pin wouldnt work at all if I didnt know they were rimfired
:rolleyes: . Stop trying to look smart by correcting your own stupid assumptions.
B) a single firing pin any way you think of it is a stupid idea. Think of it this way a firing pin is made to hit a stationary object.
This said all the strength of the firepin is due to the fact that the shock goes through its length (example of this is a nail). Now
as soon as this single firing pin hits an object, that, rather than be sitting still (relative to the pin) has a side ways motion, it
experiences a sideways push (take a dowel and touch it to the outer edge of a drum sander and you will see what I mean).
This will have you going through more pins than rounds.
Another problem with the stationary pin is that it has to be really timed well. These things combined also ruin your "grenade
striker" looking firing pin idea. Rather than fire the round it will just rip apart your cartridge or get riped off itself. (also
ultimately cutting a groove (sp?) into the "face" of your "advanced thread spooler")
Now you've made another dumb assumption that the stationary firing pin is shaped the same as a conventional pin, obviously
this pin can be easily made very strong as its not designed to be hit by a hammer, and it can be as wide as it needs to be. A
bevelled wedge shape seems most logical.
Your timing problem, thats only relative to the top left idea in first post, is solved by your first question, as the rimfire case
leaves significant room for variations in the position of primer strikes. and gived the gear ratio in the picture it wont be
spinning THAT fast.
Everyone please remember that this was designed to be as easy as possible, with little moving parts, you seriosly think that
constructing multible firing mechanisms is easier and more likely to work then a single pin .... I dont think so! This is
improvised and not meant to replicate a military weapon!
I still havnt seen any reason at all why a single stationary pin and a "recoilless rifle" type ejection will not work, obviously
accuracy and power will be poor, but seeing as the only possible use for this would be running around pretending to be ED-209
whats does it matter!
Getting the round chambered is a totally different thing and very hard ... this is its only fault that I cant get around. Unless
you want to just blurt off 8 shots then reload, in which point ejection isnt a factor either. Now imagine a multiple barrelled
automatic revolver which is best accomplished by the moving pin (top left image in first picture).
JoeJablomy, your points are also made from assumptions, Niether of us know what speeds will be needed for the stationary
pin to operate and ive never talked about 3000rpm "nanoguns" only a electric rotary barreled automatic weapon to be used for
personal amusement! Dont be taken into thinking the way its done in military guns is the only way to do it ... A "rimmed
rimfire" case brings up its own problems but also possibilities.
tiac03 February 12th, 2004, 11:56 PM

Now lets get one thing straight, it takes someone who, at the very least knows the basic function of firearms to build one let
alone a mini-gun. If you want a rifle that has only one firing pin give it one barrel. the point of the "mini-gun" is to fire rounds
faster than single barreled firearms can. If you want a really slow firing one it would make more sense to just convert a semi-
auto rifle to full auto (less costly too).
Now if you are serious about the mini-gun I would advise you to do away with the single firing pin idea, it won't work. (unless
you were attempting to make one that fired like the multiple grenade launchers, which is dumb for a .22)
now if you are going to take the effort to pull your head out of your ass, I have found a few links that can help you. (some
may have been posted already)
http://www.modelgatlinggunplans.com/pix/breechOpen.jpg
http://www.denvermechanicaldesigns.com/GUN_PARTS.html
http://www.gatlingguns.net/3d.htm
http://www.howstuffworks.com/animation23.htm
http://members3.boardhost.com/gatchat/
http://www.gatlingguns.net/
http://www.rkba.org/guns/principles/operating-systems/gatling.html
notice the # of firing pins = number of barrels for each one.
why I try to help people who are too stubborn to listen to others is beyond me.

1. I didn't say I knew wnat speed would be necessary, only that it isn't slow. No, no part of that is an assumption. I've pulled
several hundred dud .22 bullets for the powder, most recently by gripping a round in a pair of pliers and using another pair to
wrench the bullet out. From messing with the empty caps, and judging by the number of .22 duds there are at my shooting
range, I can say very certainly they aren't that easy to set off reliably. I could probably crush the base and rim of an unfired
.22 casing without setting it off.
2. You may have never talked about a real gatling gun, but it's been mentioned, and the alternative seems to really suck. If
you want some POS with less performance than .22 at a low rate of fire, don't waste my time talking about it. This is the
improvised weapon forum, and your amusing toy seems pretty lame as a weapon unless you plan to add a bayonet ;)
No, it doesn't have to be a strictly conventional gatling gun, but it does have to work. Anyway, 'rotary cannon' is another word
for gatling. You Will need something to hold the rounds in line with their barrels before they are shoved into them, this is done
by the fingers on the rotor of a real gun. You will need such a rotor on your own gun to make the rounds follow the loading
ramp, unless you can come up with some other way of doing it, and if you're going to make a real rotor you may as well mill
bolt tracks in it and use bolts for the reasons I've enumerated above. You didn't think you were going to make a high
performance gun without machining something, did you? And before you come back about this not needing to be very good:
a)If no good, useless
b)if you don't need the performance of a multibarreled gun, use a single barreled one. You can just buy one, and won't have
to fuck around with the 50+ parts you'd have to make with a dremel tool for the rotary.
Speaking of which, if you only want something with barrels that turn, you could make a barrel rotor and cam/lock system to
align it with a stub barrel on a semi-auto .22. Use backward movement of the bolt to actuate the barrels, get a 50-rd
magazine, and learn to shoot really fast. Your friends will never know the difference :))

I will say again, this was only designed to be THE EASIEST way of getting automatic fire off, the multiple barrelled design was
only chosen as it is the EASIEST way to do it. If we disregard magazines and chambering new cartridges, I challenge anyone to
come up with an easier way to get 8-20 rounds off in automatic fire. As soon as everyone gets the "cutting down trees with
blazing beams of lead" idea out of their minds we can get back to it being IMPROVISED.
You may of noted that this original topic was posted over two years ago, so I have no intention of actually doing it. The
feeding problems were mind boggling, and i'll say improvising it is near impossible, this was a major problem with the
blowback ejection, if it fails to fire a major fuckup jam would be guaranteed as a new cartridge trys to force its way in. I'll admit
that the way its drawn will never work as a magazine fed automatic weapon. You would have to rely in the amount of barrels
you could fit into it, which for a .22 would be about 20.
You can talk of "toys" and not a real weapon ... but then who here would actually use an automatic weapon for anything but
amusement, same goes for the rest of the things discussed in this forum.
How can you call your ideas "improvised" if it takes a gunsmith to accomplish it! I choose to only talk about ideas that will be
within the capabilities of most people, if that means *its* capabilities suffer - so be it! Also, improvised doesnt mean going
out and buying a semi-auto rifle, even if it accomplished the same thing ... cant you see the difference!
With this said, Tiac03 & JoeJablomy you can continue your discussion on weapons that are out of reach for 99.95% of people,
but stop directing insults towards me as we are talking about two very different things.
Rhadon February 13th, 2004, 08:32 AM

Let's not start a smack talk, I don't want to threaten to ban someone.

I wasn't posting with the intent to be insulting I was posting to inform you that you're idea of "improvising" is what "Macgyver"
is known for. You think you can strap a couple of things together spin them and you have an "automatic rifle". That is
dangerous thinking. The amount of work you are willing to put on the project is only enough to make a single barreled single
shot POC (piece of crap).
The ideas I put forward apply to anyone who is willing to put some effort, patience, and possibly a few bucks into making their
own as Joe said "rotary cannon". (As simple as it can be made, and yet still be functional.)
Now if you want to build one with a pocket knife, a soup can and a lemon as a power supply, I advise you to go to the
MacGyver fan site.
So anyone who is serious about it follow the few links I added before, and use your imagination (logically).
JoeJablomy February 13th, 2004, 11:21 PM

Tiac: I finally did look at your links, and the 3d images page was pretty good. It's nice to see the carrier block (I was calling it
the rotor) fleshed out.
I've been thinking about it, and you're right about 'blowback ejection,*' it wouldn't be reliable at all. One detail of the RG-G
models is that the extractor is on the outer side of the bolt, I guess for the obvious reason. It seems strange to me that the
bolts extend clear out the back of the carrier, which seems to have a lot of wasted volume. I guess that's OK if you want a
$10K gun, but for a lighter, cheaper version I would of course use SMG style percussion as I said (the firing pins are bumps on
the bolt faces). This would eliminate the need for most of the stuff behind the carrier, and if the bolts were only held to the
carrier by their tracks, with no tunnels, the whole cam assembly could be moved forward, too.
The GAU-8 is said to be extremely compact, and from the size of the bolt I can't doubt it! The bolt is about a third of a
cartridge length long. We probably can't achieve that without ending up with finicky little parts that won't work, but we can
definitely do better than the 5-length bolts RG-G uses. Specifically, we probably can get away with 1.5" long bolts, which would
be exactly 1.5 length. They could probably be made from 3/8" bar stock, and it would probably be most practical to screw the
cam lugs on.
It seems most likely that the RG-G gun had the bolts going through tunnels in the carrier to hold them to it very firmly. The
alternative is to have the bolts be partiallly submerged in their tracks. It might also make sense to use square or hex bar for
the bolts, although that could make it harder to mill them. (I don't really know much about machining, either) I think if you
used 3/8" square stock with one edge facing out and one toward the gun central axis, it would be plenty big enough to hold a
.22 round and still have enough metal on either side to hold it securely in the track.
One other possibility is to have the main cam track be inside the carrier, instead of around it, as a stationary cylindrical thing
with the track milled in it. It would be a lot simpler that milling it in the inside of the outer casing. This would mean you'd need
more barrels to have a core space big enough for it, and the cam-core would have to be supported by the back plate, but it
would definitely make the receiver a hell of a lot easier to make. I think this might be the approach used on the GAU-8; in the
pictures you'll notice the cam follower is on the opposite side from the extractors.
---Just checked, and the outside casing seems like it might have the track in it, but the pictures are all low resolution or have
the feed guides in the way. Interestingly, the rotor is driven at the front of the receiver instead of the rear. See the bottom of
http://www.military-page.de/waffen/mk/gau8/gau8_01.htm
---Anyway, it likely doesn't have the cam inside the carried because it would be much harder to incorporate a clearing cycle if it
were. It might not matter if the extractors are on the inside edge and the follower is on the outside; the ejector is probably
some thing that catches the casing in the middle and throws it out as the carrier rotates. There seems to be a groove to
accomodate such a device on the RG-G carrier.
---In fact, my used 30x173 durable dummy has a ring of nicks about 3" from the base, and a fired shell has one. They look
like they came off the squared corner of something about .07" wide.
*I should have called it blow-out ejection; blowback guns use extractors so it's a distinct variation.

Yea they based their design off of the "classic" gatling guns, so that is why it is built that way.
Your design ideas seem good. and the Idea of using the firing pins as really a protrusion off of the total is also a good idea
because it would allow for less small moving parts to have to worry about.
But you proved my point. The best kind of posts in these forums are the kind where people look something up and add their
own thoughts on improving it. Almost like reverse engineering. By the end you take the best ideas from everyone involved
and design one from that.
I just wish I remembered the name of the site that had the video of the inner workings of a black powder gatling gun in
motion. If I ever find it I'll post it.
Marcus February 14th, 2004, 08:39 PM

I uploaded the video I think you are talking about to a geocities account here: http://www.geocities.com/marcuschurch2001
Unfortunatly as it is quite large one download appears to exceed the free allocated data transfer.
tiac03 February 15th, 2004, 01:29 AM

From what I remember yea that seems to be the one. Thanks. You remember what site it was from?

Im pretty sure that vid originally come from gattlinggun.net (now dead). It shows how feeding and extraction were not an issue
with the original gat, as the cartridge was also the chamber, therefore was as simple as letting it fall in and out.

A few other thoughts:
The GAU8 does use a cam track in the receiver casing like any other gatling. You can see it in the picture at the bottom of the
German page I linked to, right next to the feed mechanism by the orangish band on the main drive shaft.
Also, feeding won't be as much of a problem as I thought. A gatling gun should take cartridges by pushing them out the side
of the feeder rather than pushing them straight forward. The rim can get in the way of a cartridge going forward, but shouldn't
be a problem it it's pushed to the side. What we do have to do is come up with a magazine that retains cartridges while
allowing them to be moved out the side. I can think of a few ways to do it, but don't have a way to post images. Anyway, does
anyone know about gatling magazines and how they worked?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised AAA: FLIEGERFAUST
Log in
View Full Version : Improvised AAA: FLIEGERFAUST
Ragnar July 31st, 2001, 12:51 AM

This was ,what I believe, to be the first shoulder-fired AAA weapon.
If my history is correct, It was concieved very late in WW2 by Germany and a few( I think) actually seen combat in the closing months/weeks of the war.
The weapon consisted (final model) of nine 20mm rocket tubes that resembled a gattling assembly.
The ammo were standard 20mm aa projectiles with proximity fuze crimpt onto a rocket motor that had two slanted venturi inorder to impart a spin for stabilized flight.
upon firing(which is electric) the rounds left in two groups spaced in miliseconds.
I don't recall the velocity, but I believe it was quite high- effective range was supposedly at 2000m.
It was felt by the Allies(;I don't like that term) that this weapon would have made a considerable impact on the outcome of this war.
A simple, straightforward design.

These weapons used in groups could place a lot of danger for low flyers....especially for whirlybirds.
NightStalker July 31st, 2001, 06:51 PM

yeah right, i remember this weapon...
i got a picture and a short description of it in a german book...
i think i'll scan it during the next days and post it (text translated).
but what i really wonder is how to built such a weapon. any ideas are welcome..
------------------
BaDSeeD August 2nd, 2001, 02:33 AM

FLIEGERFAUST?
I remember reading somewhere about an experimental weapon that the germans had placed on their bomber interceptors. It was called jaugfaust (probably spelled horribly
wrong), anyhow, it was placed on the ME163 Komet. It was a vertically mounted rocket, that had a light sensor built into it. Basically, it was designed for the interceptor to fly
under an incoming bomber, and when the shadow of the bomber crossed this sensor, it would then fire the rocket, up and into the plane. Sorry i can't provide any more info on
this, but my time online today is rather limited. Feel free to add anything to this.... especially the proper spellinghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------
BaDSeeD
Jumala August 7th, 2001, 09:50 PM

Perhaps it is this what you mean?
http://unsere-luftwaffe.de/inhalt/motoren/hasag.htm
[This message has been edited by Jumala (edited August 07, 2001).]
Ragnar August 10th, 2001, 01:26 AM

Yep, thats it.

How do the proximity fuse of that weapon operate?
I know only the electric prox. fuses which transmit signal(infra red, high frequency, etc.) that mirors from object, it is recieved from a reciever in the bomb and detonates it...

You'll find information on Fliegerfaust in the last 2 paragraphs of the below listed website:
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust2.htm

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > How to make homemade mortars
Log in
View Full Version : How to make homemade mortars
kaylen April 12th, 2001, 11:52 PM

Please tell me how to make homemade mortars or a sight that tells me how.
also try this fill a sprite can with any fast burning oxidizere black powder,flash powder nitro, hmtd ,acetone peroxide so on so
fort put on a 1 ft visc fuse bury it leaving the fuse out and see wat happends (a miniture earth quake ) cool
CragHack April 13th, 2001, 12:05 AM

did you know that metals can react with HMTD and acetone peroxide to form heat, heat enough to cause the peroxides to
explode? didn't think of that did you? get the fuck out of here. try and seach the net yourself asshole.
------------------
Pyro April 13th, 2001, 12:14 AM

Honestly, with a post like that this topic should be immediately closed. You think you'd get helped for a mortar, go here
www.wierdpier.com (http://www.wierdpier.com) and goto their forums, ask someone there, they'll tell you a procedure.-Pyro
Cricket April 13th, 2001, 01:03 AM

NBK2000's PDF. If you ask about where to get this, you don't need it.
Bitter April 13th, 2001, 09:57 AM

It's also in the wrong section, but that's another story. (Improvised Weapons, mister).

I know HMTD is incompatible with nearly all metals, but I thought AP was ok with metals? Kitchen Improvised Blasting Caps
agrees. Just wondering because I got some 10mm Al tube for caps thinking it'd be OK with AP.
BoB- April 13th, 2001, 06:27 PM

I dont know man, in a can theres a lot of room for the AP to "rattle", I dont understand the need for a high explosive,
actually....I cant really understand your post as all.
shady mutha April 13th, 2001, 06:32 PM

The paladin press book 'professionals guide to pyrotechnics' has a firework mortar design made from strong cardboard.As for
military grade the IRA used gas bottles filled with A.N based explosive for mortar rounds.They used blackpowder for the
propellant.Delta press has a 'beer can mortar'book for $5.

Home made mortar - length of steel pipe (preferably seamless) threaded at one end and an end cap. Simple.
Foodos April 13th, 2001, 07:14 PM

Kaylen: If you have the means to make AP, HMTD, and otherwise then you should have no problem finding plans, or
improvising your own mortar.
Anthony: I was thinking along the same lines, especially since many people dream of using Brass empty shells with AP as
small crackers, ive read a few posts on how people used aluminum shells as well.

HMTD is corrosive to metals, because of its extreme excess of oxygen. Why isn't AP corrosive to metals? They are both
triperoxides, and both have the same amount of oxygen atoms according to "Improvised primary explosives".
AP formula:
C9H18O6
HMTD formula:
C6H12N2O6
Now that has to be some faulty information, hasn't it! I think the AP formula is wrong, because in another pdf I read that AP
has a formula of:
C6H12O4.
I believe that the latter formula for AP is correct. Can anyone fill me in on this? What is the correct formula of AP and WHY
doesn't it corrode metals as well as HMTD, if it has the same number of oxygen atoms than HMTD does.
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited April 13, 2001).]

OoTSCoO, you are still given respect for having the right attitude towards the forum (which you have demonstrated in your
previous post), but please improve your spelling, there is a spellchecker to help you as well.
CodeMason May 16th, 2001, 05:49 AM

blackadder: Both those AP formulas are right, it's just that the former is the trimer, and the latter is the dimer.
Gollum May 17th, 2001, 12:59 PM

The problem with mortars like that is that they generally offer very poor accuracy. If you know how to build proper mortar
rounds, and are knowledgable in meteorology then you can get pretty accurate.
CragHack May 17th, 2001, 02:10 PM

meteorology...? what are we trying to predict the fucking weather? (::licks finger, sticks it up in the air:: "hmm, might rain")
also after rereading the posts no one has mentioned how unstable AP and HMTD are when considering shock. you try and
launch a can, with AP or hmtd in it, with a mortar and you will be picking the tube of the mortar out of your skull for weeks to
come.
------------------
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited May 17, 2001).]

Meteorology is important because the rounds will have different courses depending on the air pressure, ambient moisture,
altitude of the round, and so on. This is why meteorologists can always be found travelling with artillery. Big guns with big
shells need big knowledge. Just firing at random angles could end up in you or one of your comrades being hit by shrapnel
from the round (Provided you're using a proper round).
PYRO500 May 17th, 2001, 09:04 PM

uh... humidity? I dont think that will matter seing our cannons are improvised, in fact the only major deciding factor that
matters here is the wind, and it dosent take a meteroligist to figure how that will effect your morter
BaDSeeD May 18th, 2001, 01:40 AM

LOL
Ohh my god.
I can't believe how technical everyone is getting here. How fucking accurate do you think a mortar is going to be when you use
a "beer can" for a projectile, or a piece of gas line or sewer pipe for a launcher. Get real people. Does anyone here have any
practical use for a mortar anyhow? What ya gonna do.... go hunting? The only practical use someone here might have for a
mortar... is as a terror weapon. Any kills from it would only be a bonus.... how accurate does it have to be then?
------------------
BaDSeeD

Well if you really are using it as a terror weapon, you should make the beer cans special. Make them explode on impact with
the ground and send Willie Pete flying everywhere (White Phosphorus, see NBK's post). Or if you have electronics skill make it
explode 50 feet above ground to kill and maim everyone within a few hundred feet. All you need to do is have consistant
weight and shape for your mortar round, and a consistant ammount of quality propellant launching it. With geometry and
proper weather knowledge you can get it to be quite exact.
PYRO500: Moisture in the air is important because it adds resistance to the movement of your round. On a foggy and windy
day it can mean the difference between the round flying 500 feet or landing right at your feet.
Here's a good read for anyone who likes this kind of stuff: http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/23-90/toc.htm
And remember, if you're going to do it, do it well!
PYRO500 May 18th, 2001, 04:40 PM

ok, humidity is never gonna make that big a diffrence, your beer can is likely to tumble in flight witch will eliminate the need
for accurate calculations, granted geometry is useful here, the only factor that will effect the tdj. of your cannon is wind.
madman May 28th, 2001, 05:04 AM

A variety of grenade launchers can be fabricated from metal pipes and fittings.Ranges up to 600 meters can be obtained
depending on length of tube,charge,number of grenades,and angle of firing.
Material required.
Metal pipe,threaded on one end approx 2-1/2 in. in diameter and 14 in.to 4 ft long depending on range desired and number
of grenades.
End cap to fit pipe.
Black powder,15 to 50 gm
Fuse(any)or Electric initiator
grenade(homemade)
rags about 30 in.x30 in.
drill
string
Method.
1.drill small hole through center of end cap
2.place blackbodies and fuse in paper bag and tie with string.
3.thread fuse through hole in end cap and place package(blackpowder)in end cap.screw end cap into pipe,being careful that
the package in not caught between the threads.
roll rag wad so that it is about 6on. long and has approximately the same diameter as pipe.push rag into open end of pipe
untill it rests against package
5 pop in the grenade.
On another note I saw the Australian army mortars,they can fire almost 5 km,the fire controller has a hand held computer that
works everything out.
Demolition May 28th, 2001, 06:18 AM

Madman,how do you manufacture your grenades?
Demolition
madman May 28th, 2001, 10:03 PM

Demolition I have never used that devise and have never produced a grenade.The information I have is.
Material required.
Iron pipe,threaded ends 1 1/2 to 3" diam,3" to 8"long.
Explosive or propellant
nonelectric blasting cap.
fuse.
drill.
Just screw the cap on one end ,make sure the blasting cap is in the middle,fill her up cap it.
An improvised method of launching a standard grenade 150 yds or an improvised grenade 90 yds using a discarded
ammunition container.
Material required
Heavy cardboard container with inside diameter of 2 1/2 to 3" and at least 12 in.
Black powder-8 grams.
fuse
grenade
Rag,approximately 30 in x 24 in
paper.
1.Discard top of container.Make small hole in bottom.
2.measure off a piece of fuse at least as long as the cardboard container.Tape one end of this to the fuse from the blasting
cap in the improvised grenade.Be sure ends of fuse are in contact with EACH other.
3. place free end of fuse and blackpowder on piece of paper.Tie ens with string so contents will not fall out.
4place packasge in tube.Insert rag wadding.Pack so it fits snugly.Place pipe grenade into tube.Be sure it fits snugly.
5.Insert fuse through hole on bottom of launcher.Make sure it goes INTO blackpowder package.
6.bury container about 6" into ground at 30*degree angle.
7.fire on enemy.
mark May 30th, 2001, 09:03 PM

Weapons of error? killing and maiming? Who are you fighting? Keep the hell out of the east bay, if you dont mind.
A thick cardboard tube with a 3/4 inch diameter inside can be used to launch cratermakers so they go off in the air. This isnt a
"weapon o terror", just something cool to aim over the ocean at the beach.
Also, birdbombs are quite cool. Theyre flying m80s that go for 100 feet. You shoot them from guns.
ST June 25th, 2001, 07:59 AM

<img src="http://server3004.freeyellow.com/stx/mortar.jpg" align="left">
The mortar is just a pipe sealed at one end, the ammunition is the hard part,what described above are simply cannons.
Mortars are effective because they are capable of putting a lot of explosive in the air in a short time, therefore the round must
not leave anything within the tube once fired, this allows the ammunition to be continually fed into it.
The picture shows a round that leave nothing behind and is fired out of a simple steel tube.
As the round hits the end of the tube, the shotshell full of powder is forced beack onto a firing pin igniting the powder charge
and firing the round.
------------------
ST
PYRO500 June 25th, 2001, 09:53 AM

I would have a thin piece of metal holding the main impact hamer to strike the primer, so that when it smacks the ground it
will crumple and not slide back and strike the primer prematurely

Blackadder: how can you have the formula for HMTD in front of you and claim that it has an ecxess of oxygen?!?!!?!?!?!??! It
needs 12 more oxygen atoms to even have a neutral oxygen balance!
(sorry, I don't know anything about home-made mortars, or why you'd want one)

ST,
Is this just an Idea or has it been proto-typed and tested?

Also you could try a fused system; this would be great for employing an Arson or shrapnel.
------------------
10fingers June 25th, 2001, 10:34 PM

When the relatives are over there are a lot of beer cans flying through the air and I can say with certainty that they are not
very aerodynamic or accurate.
ST June 26th, 2001, 04:00 AM

Agent Blak,
No, its just an idea, i for one would never push something like that down a tube next to me .. I dont know what casing/
propellant combinations would work, it just seems like a feasable idea that can be worked on.
------------------
ST
SawedOff8gaugeman June 26th, 2001, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Agent Blak:
ST,
Is this just an Idea or has it been proto-typed and tested?
It's not his idea. Can be found(with more detailed istructions and no idiotical bugs, fused version) in "Ragner's book of
homemade weapons" as well as in NBK2000 pdf.
There's not any bleed holes in the picture around the upper portion of the shotshell chamber. BIG MISTAKE!!! I bet if it would
work, at least it could leave the empty shell behind in the tube =(
ST June 26th, 2001, 04:42 PM

I thought i had thought it up.... but id never claim it as everything this simple would have been done before.
Tell me what these "bleed holes" are for? i can see any need but you seem assured with yourself that its necessary.
And what the fuck do you want the shotshell left in the tube for, the whole point is for it to not be there.
What do you want a fused shell for? hits the ground and waits a bit before exploding? explodes in air? surely its best to go off
as soon as it hits.
------------------
ST
[This message has been edited by ST (edited June 26, 2001).]
Mexican Pizza June 27th, 2001, 04:45 PM

ST, SawedOff8gaugeman was refering to how your design would leave the shor shell in the tube, I think. Bleed holes are
nessary for the gasses from the burnt powder within the shot shell to escape the confinement of the tube.
ST June 28th, 2001, 05:39 AM

no more comments from me until someone actually looks at the picture.
------------------
ST
PYRO500 June 28th, 2001, 07:47 PM

Why would you want bleed holes? they would make the morter loose power! you waant as much gasses as possible behind the
morter to launch it.
nbk2000 June 28th, 2001, 10:35 PM

This is a picture of a stokes mortar bomb showing the bleed holes. It too used 12 guage shells of propellant.
http://oldguns.net/5189.jpg
------------------
Anthony June 29th, 2001, 12:10 AM

But if I'm looking at that picture right, the 12ga cartridge is base down unlike ST's pic. So the only way out is through the
bleed holes, whereas in ST's the cartridge is base up so the open end points straight down into the mortar, so I'd think no
bleed holes needed.
Simplier design cartridge down though as the firing pin in the mortar acts directly on the primer of the cartridge.
I'm guessing that wide ring keeps the cartridge from being ejected on ignition and leaving the empty cartridge in the mortar.
I wouldn't have thought a standard 12ga propellant load would have enough umph to fire something that big and heavy a
long distance - you learn soemthing new everydayhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
ST June 29th, 2001, 12:32 AM

OK, thanks Anthony for noticing.
I just downloaded the NBK pdf and see what you lot are talking about, and where the confusion was, bensons design looks
much the same as the picture NBK has posted.
Problems i see from an improvised viewpoint, the shell must be made perfectly to have any hope of working if the firing pin is
at the bottom of the tube.
The body must be a perfect fit for the tube, "nipple" welded perfectly centered and firing pin in centre of end cap to have any
hope of working. Ragnar also doesnt mention if the shotshell stays in the tube or not.
Ragnar mentions how the endcaps constantly need replacing, Using a design that doesnt use a firing pin in the mortar itself
would let you build up the base with welded plate steel, taking away the need to replace it.
------------------
ST
SawedOff8gaugeman June 29th, 2001, 10:35 AM

Now I "actually looked at the picture" and noticed it's a good construction!! I couldn't see the cartridge was downwards at first.
I think the cartridge would be ejected more surely on this model and again, Ragner's construction actually sucked http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

has anybody thought of re-activating deactivated mortars? it could be a better option as the tube would be designed for the
purpose and able to easily take the pressure.
Ragnar July 29th, 2001, 05:12 AM

As far as sighting is concerned, a good rout to go would be that similar to the swiss 60mm Commando(?) mortar which uses a
sling with ranging incriments printed on it.
To adjust range the firer simply places his foot inside the sling on the appropriate range mark and pulls firmly up on the tube.
Good Idea for on-the-go firing.
Of course.....a lot of experimenting for consistency with semi-prescision rounds would be required.
SMAG 12B/E5 July 29th, 2001, 11:12 PM

I don't mean to offend anyone on this post, however the material presented appears to indicate little experience in actual
mortar construction. My dreams indicate that an improvised mortar of two inch bore launching a round fabricated from 1 1/4
pipe nipple, cap and bell reducer with 3/8 inch tail piece containing a shortened 45 long colt cartridge containing 1/2 tsp FFG BP
and the powder from one 30/06 cartridge (in tissue paper) wrapped around the vent holes in tail piece will travel approximately
250 m.
AP is unsafe to use in rounds, ignition cartridge must be retained in stabilizer tube, stabilizer tube (base tube) must be
vented, main propellent can be attached to exterior of tail, fuse must be sealed from propellent gases and should be bore-
safe, if point detonated, round must be flight stabilized
The 60 mm mortar used in WWII by allied forces is an excellent device to dream about. It is simple, easily manufactured,
practice rounds and unloaded rounds are available, the bipods and sights are still available at a reasonable cost, blueprints of
the M52 (???) fuse are available...
Dream safely...
SATANIC July 30th, 2001, 01:52 AM

In regards to the commando mortars, they are not very accurate (even less accurate than most) and even if you do get a
good shot in, there is no guaruntee it will happen again. the mortar is thrown off every shot, as it is not 'bedded in' properly.
Also, the commando mortars have the tendancy to break legs, as the shock of the propelant blast is enough to break legs,
when on soft ground or sand etc.
Hex August 1st, 2001, 07:42 AM

I wouldn't try that mortar round design of ST's if i were you, kids. A firing pin set in the front of a round like that would be very
likely to "set back" on firing - and set the round off inside the mortar tube. Think how you get pressed back in the seat when
someone floors a car from a standing start, and then consider how much faster a mortar round will be accelerating up the
barrel. Even with a spring or a shear wire holding it in place I wouldn't go anywhere near that sort of design. The British Army
tested a simple rifle grenade design in WW1 with a front mounted firing pin - and abandoned it immediately as it kept killing
the firer. I'm afraid you're going to have to use an inertia pellet/creep spring arrangement if you want detonate on impact
rounds.
Brushburner August 1st, 2001, 10:17 AM

Does anyone think this sounds feasible? you can make a impact-detonator by having it so a nail, that is in the front of the
mortar round hit a fixed cap (forget what you call them, not into guns a lot) that would ignite whatever explosive that is in the
round, I would suggest something as weak as pyrodex in this case, as it is not very shock sensitive (someone reply how to
post a pic in a message and i do that, im not good at putting ideas into words http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif)
P.S. Hex, i would'nt have this so it was loose,possibly put it in something tight-fitting, like a rubber stopper. Then it would
need to hit something, and just being fired wouldnt set it off (please correct me if im wrong but dont bash me lol)
[This message has been edited by Brushburner (edited August 01, 2001).]
Anthony August 1st, 2001, 03:53 PM

A person is considerably more massive than a firing pin and primers need quite a lot of force to set them off.
Was the rifle grenade in question one which catches a bullet? If so then the propulsion of the grenade is a different kettle of
fish to a mortar.
Demolition August 4th, 2001, 10:57 AM

Instead of having such a sensitive primary like AP what about having a tube with a secondary explosive,eg,RDX,PETN,Picric
acid in the bottom.Half way up use a weak glue to hold a solid metal pipe (which slides up and down the larger tube
easily).This would then of course be poking out the front of the mortar shell so when it hits the ground it would break free
from the hold of the glue and slide down onto the secondary explosive setting it off (like hitting it with a hammer),this then
would set off the main charge,something like ANNM/Al could be used for this.
Could look something like this,
###_____
####II
####II
-###|II|
|----|II|----|
|***|II|***|
|***|II|***|
|***|@|***|
|***|@|***|
|***|@|***|
|***===***|
|*********|
--------------
# = ignore these
| = walls of mortar shell
- = base of shell
@ = PETN,RDX,Picric Acid
* = ANNM/Al explosive
= = Metal plate at base of pipe
I = Solid metal pipe
_ = Plate at top of Mortar round
(damn picture,I'm sure someone would be able to dram up something similar in paint)
------------------
To be untouchable one must first surround himself with the strong.

Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited August 04, 2001).]
Hex August 6th, 2001, 02:08 PM

That rifle grenade I was talking about was fired by a blank cartridge rather than a bullet pass/trap mech.
If you look through textbooks, you will hardly ever come across devices with front-mounted direct impact fuzes in anything
except (hand launched) grenades. Don't underestimate inertial effects - shells containing cast TNT have been known to
detonate in the bore because of tiny air pockets undergoing adiabatic heating due to acceleration. This is obviously unlikely to
happen in a much lower velocity situation like a mortar, but I'll say it again - there's no way I would stand next to a home
made mortar which was about to fire with a direct impact firing pin in the nose, no matter how stiffly it was held in place.
Armies like simple weapons - but none of them have ever wanted to use fuzes like this in a similar weapon. Why???
Lagen August 6th, 2001, 04:46 PM

I agree with Hex on the inertia effects - the pressure generated is mainly a function of acceleration and density/shape of the
object being accelerated. Thus a small metal object could well generate more pressure (over a smaller area) than a large
human body.

What is the construction of the military mortar rounds? What primer do they use in the detonator? What is the construction of
the detonator? I think a home made mortar is something super dangerous, it could be improvised but the construction must
be copied from a real military one. The main explosive must be something insensitive like RDX/PETN plastic, urea nitrate,
ANNM, TNT. Never peroxide or nitroglycerine must be used... I also would feel a real FEAR standing to firing home made
mortat...

PETN is still pretty sensitive, you can detonate it with 1mg of lead azide.

Fair enough, can you suggest a more suitable method?
Hex August 7th, 2001, 07:26 AM

The simplest military impact fuses generally consist of a striker mounted on a heavy pellet, which moves in a tube. The
detonator assembly is at the forward end of the tube. On launch, the pellet is held back by acceleration at the rear of the
tube. On impact, the shell stops suddenly, but the pellet doesn't. It travels up the tube, overcoming the resistance of a creep
spring between it and the detonator and the striker impacts on the firing assembly.
There will always be a safety device which locks the striker pellet in place until it leaves the barrel. In mortars, this is often a
bore riding pin which is spring loaded and is ejected to release the striker.
Tony Montana August 7th, 2001, 08:16 AM

If your serious about weapon systems check this out, it takes fucking ages to load but is worth it:
http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/library/incoming/math/www.pdox.net/%257Ededekind/books/Physics/
Principles%20of%20Naval%20Weapons%20Systems.pdf

Sounds like a good system Hex, it'd be difficult to fit into small devices but for mortars it would be good.
irish March 8th, 2004, 09:37 PM

Silverleaf, you have got to be a fucking idiot is you think nitrogen triiodide is a good thing to use as a primary in anything let
alone a mortar shell :mad: . Edit= just ignore the above it seems the post I was referring to is gone :confused: .
To add to Hex's post, I know someone who did a limited amount of experimentation with 10 Cm long Copper tubes with a
precussion cap (from gunshop) in one end on an Iron anvil (made to fit the tube, with a hole drilled through it and a nipple for
the cap), and a steel striker that would slide up the tube in the other end. These where attached to an arrow and "fired" into
the air to test with good results ie they fired the cap most times on contact with firm ground.
No safety was tested nor was a detonater attached to the cap but this is on the long list of things to do (oneday :rolleyes: ).
majik March 12th, 2004, 02:58 PM

Hi there all. I have a tried and tested method for constructing a (fairly accurate) mortar.
I used to steal co2 canisters from fire extinguishers at school; the kind that have a separate co2 canister screwed on. This
canister is in the shape of a bullet already so that's a bonus for aerodynamics.
On 1 end of the canister is a hole with an aluminium cap that needs to be pierced (by a nail for example) to let the co2 out.
around this is a screw thread which was originally used to attach canister to extinguisher. you use this to screw on a short
length of tube to which you weld 4 fins that do not exceed the diameter of the canister itself. This way you can stick the shell
in a launch tube.
I was lucky to find a tube of the same diameter (roughly) as the canister. You fit the launch tube with an end cap, to which a
steel nail is welded exactly in the center on the inside, long enough to reach the aluminium seal through the screwed-on pipe.
The launch tube is welded to a sliding hinge(made with a curtain rail system) which in turn is attached to a wheel jack (or
whatever you call the thing you use to lift a car up when changing the wheel) which you use to adjust elevation.
The whole assembly is mounted on a studded heavy steel plate (studs on underside for grip) Recoil is considerable but
nothing compared to an expl. charge as a large part of the propellant is expended in flight and not all inside the tube. Drop
the projectile in and it comes whooshing back out with a billowing cloud of gas in it's wake!
1 problem i encountered was that sometimes the seal didn't break and i had to wait around for ages to get the projectile back
out again (carefully) for fear of the thing going off! I suppose a longer tube would have given it that necessary extra bit of
momentum needed to ensure seal breakage.
I never attached an explosive of any kind to the projectile but i'm sure there are enough effective methods to do so relatively
easily. I was thinking of using a bulletprimer, nail and spring system for impact detonation, the spring being of the necessary
strength to prevent the nail from hitting the primer at launch.
The furthest i ever shot this thing was +/- 100 meters which is surprising as the co2 canister itself weighs quite a lot. Guess
there's something to be said for compressed air eh? I reckon if someone who knows what they're doing with acces to a
machine shop put their mind to this, they would get the thing to fly a lot further. I am but an amateur i'm afraid.
When i fired 3 consecutive rounds, they all landed within a square of 10x10 meters +/- 100 meters away. The IRA employed a
similar device in a mortar attack on 10 downing street. They didn't count on bomb-proof curtains though. If anyone is
interested i can put up a rough sketch of the design.
++++++++++++++++
How about you edit this post yourself so it's not a 26 sentence monoparagraph?
You know, those little spaces between groups of sentences that allow a person to seperate a though group from another, but
different, thought group?
You may wish to do this quickly, before I next visit this thread, or I'll do it myself and remove you while I'm wasting my time
correcting your crappy grammer for you.
NBK
++++++++++++++++
[No need to create a separate post for the following.
Rhadon]
Sorry about the grammar, got a little overenthusiastic whilst typing :o
Hope the edit has made it easier to read.
tasm April 12th, 2004, 11:32 PM

I am new here and trying to avoid HED, but I felt this thread left a few things unanswered.
Terms: cant - the deviation from level of an object
mil - unit of measurement used in mortars. 1 degree = 17.777 mils
Aiming:
First, to have a semi accurate mortar you need to be able to have a definite way to measure the cant of the tube. Probably the
easiest way to this is with a surplus M2 Compass (has a level bubble with mil increments). The compass is simply laid
sideways against the tube and the cant can be read in mils. This information with a consistent charge can be used to create a
charge book for different ranges.
Second, to aim the mortar in a "direct lay" type scenario, aim the tube at your proposed target and fire. Observe where the
round lands and move your tube the in the direction of the target (and past the target) so you are now aiming approximately
the distance between the target and the miss further than the actual target.
Creation:
I would highly recommend using scrap oil field drill pipe with a threaded end cap. Plumbers galvanized pipe just reminds me of
a big pipe bomb.
Ammunition:
Rounds should be created in such a manner as to have a lip at least 1/8 of and inch around the primer if possible. This will
prevent rounds from going off if dropped. The vent holes in the shaft are necessary to insure that the charge will stay in the
round and not be spent in the tube. Also, the vent holes are used to ignite secondary "bag" charges you may choose to attach
for longer ranges.
Safety:
Upon a hung or dud round slowly lower the tube to level with the ground, remove the end cap or retract the firing pin if
applicable. Lean the tube forward gently shaking to dislodge the round having someone to catch the dud. Never attempt to
remove a round with your hand or with a ramrod.
Finally:
I am no expert on mortars, but I do have extensive experience on the 60mm, 81mm, 4.2 inch, and the 120mm gun systems.
If you have any questions I would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
MMIV September 5th, 2004, 01:44 AM

u could have look at WRM(white resistance manual) on improvised mortars it found usually on the net or p2p networks such
Overnet, Edonkey2000 or Imesh. the mortar look like a mean bit gear and they the approx range is about 700 yards. :)

You can buy surplus mortar tubes and rounds.
The tubes have a hole punched in them, and the rounds are drilled, but you can cut the tube short above the hole and fix
that, as you're not trying to get 6KM range out of it, as 1KM would be more than adequate for urban warfare, and the rounds
can be repaired to be functional with an improvised fuze.
Lawrence September 12th, 2004, 12:53 PM

Just a thought on impact detonation devices, on some old film of bombs being dropped from airplanes I have noticed that
there is a small propeller on the nose of the bomb,I have always assumed that this is a safety device that would screw the
fuse, or some activating part of it into alignment,thereby rendering the bomb "safe" untill it is actually dropped.
It would not be hard to construct such a system for a mortar round,the prop would be driven by the airflow and would be
attached to a screw thread inside the body of the round,this would then render the round live several seconds after launch by
completing an electrical circuit for example,is this a viable idea?
Bugger September 12th, 2004, 01:39 PM

If your serious about weapon systems check this out, it takes fucking ages to load but is worth it:
http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/library/incoming/math/www.pdox.net/%257Ededekind/books/Physics/
Principles%20of%20Naval%20Weapons%20Systems.pdf
I only get "403 forbidden". What log-in name and password did you use on that site in Portugal (Technological University of
Lisbon, I think)? Did you use a proxy server? Or, do you think you could e-mail it to me at swell002@yahoo.com ? Thanks.
Bugger.
festergrump September 12th, 2004, 01:51 PM

Lawrence,
I suppose that's a pretty viable idea. I'm wondering if the added drag would send the projectile off course, though. In the
example of bombs being dropped from aircraft this wouldn't pose a problem at all because they're guided by gravity and not
really intended to require a direct hit due to the massive charge of HE or incendiary. If the prop was in the rear of the projectile
this would perhaps stabilize it some, but make the projectile much more complicated to manufacture. (problems with prop and
propellant charge).
Another manner in which fans or props can be used (PMJB Vol 1, I think) is in the ignition of the propellant charge. This would
be for anti-helicopter mortars. The idea is to have a fan facing upwards in the bottom of a tube (to avoid wind turning the fan)
which would turn a generator or alternator in the event of a helicopters "wash" being too nearby. the alternator would generate
enough electricity to ingnite the propellant charge and launch the projectile towards the heli.
I happen to like NBK's idea from his PDF to have a beer or soda can filled with cement as the mortar's projectile and attached
to a steel cable to entangle the heli's props rather than trying to get a HE charge to take it out of commission. Read both
PMJB and NBK's PDF...Great reading and both on the FTP. (NBK's is following every one of his posts, also).
Bugger September 12th, 2004, 11:19 PM

"Principles of Naval Weapons Systems.pdf" can be downloaded from:
http://books.pdox.net/Physics/Principles%20of%20Naval%20Weapons%20Systems.pdf
It is one of many PDF ebook files in the Dedekind physics and mathematics archives, on this site, the root directory of which is
http://books.pdox.net/ .
Bugger.
Tinton June 15th, 2007, 01:00 AM

ST got it.
Tube
Nail on endcap of tube
Nail strikes primer, primer initiates, launches out, lands, detonates.
I would probably make the projectile out of something able to withstand the forces of the propellant. Just so you don't actually
hurt anyone.(yourself!)
GNAB June 17th, 2007, 06:50 PM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78351
215.9mm Black powder mortar. Launches 16# bowling balls to 200 meters. Built from an oxygen cylinder. Check out the
photos, especially the gallon ziplocs full of gasoline!!! This would be great for hunting rednecks in trailer houses.
Ya'll com'on down to Oklahoma and we'll punch some holes in Bubba's doublewide.
Now who wants to bore out a bowling ball and discuss what kind and how much explosive would be appropriate for
entertainment value.
eelfland June 19th, 2007, 08:25 PM

When I was a kid a made a good many pipe-bomb grenades that were actuated by a roofing nail taped in position on the
leading end, with the pointed end of the nail resting on the primer of a 12-gauge shotgun shell held inside the 3/4" pipe by a
cap with a hole drilled through the center to hold my firing pin. A long rag tied to the other end of the grenade served both as
a launching device and a flight stabilizer, making sure that the round landed on its firing pin. They worked great, as long as
the grenade landed on a hard surface. The road in front of my house was pockmarked. I used six-inch nipples, mostly, with
various charges, usually shotgun shell propellant, and not a lot of that.
A mortar to launch such a grenade could use a shotgun shell blank as its charge. I would highly doubt that the acceleration
imparted by the charge would be sufficient to detonate the primer in the nose of the grenade, especially with the rag wadding
to pad the shock, but I'd want to fire a good many empty pipe grenades, or ones loaded with just a primer and a simulated
charge, before trusting a fully charged one not to detonate in the barrel of the mortar. It might be safer to glue the firing pin
in place, but not so firmly that the shell's impact wouldn't dislodge it. Some experimentation would be in order.
The beauty of a mortar is that it is able to lob a shell over fortifications, rather than just busting through them. With the long
rag streaming out behind these shells, it would be fun to practice firing dummy shells to gain accuracy before firing live ones,
and it would be very cheap, too, since the dummy shells could be reused, and the propellant for the mortar could be just
cheap black powder or Pyrodex. In the right hands, such a weapon could be a good way to keep the riff-raff out, too.
Sounds like fun to me. Takes me back 45 years to when I first started playing with fire.
corz29 June 21st, 2007, 08:20 PM

I use the M5 homemade military propellant it is the formula:
-nitocellulose 81.95%
-nitroglycerine 15.00%
-barium nitrate 1.40%
-potasium nitrate 0.75%
-ethyl centarlite 0.60%
-graphite 0.30%
(the % are by weight)
Bacon46 June 26th, 2007, 12:28 PM

Now who wants to bore out a bowling ball and discuss what kind and how much explosive would be appropriate for
entertainment value
The links are to video and images of a 15lb bowling ball frag that I made a couple months ago. I used 2oz (56.5g) of KnO3/
Al flash and an electric match for ignition. It would be easy enough to replace the electric match with a timed fuse and fire it
out of a mortar.
The chunks of rubber/plastic on the scale are all I was able to recover of the ball. The largest piece weighed 6.8oz (192.77g)
and was thrown over 50 yards (45.72 meters).
http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bowlingballfragcutuq3.flv
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2892/15lbimprovisedfragow8.th.jpg (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=15lbimprovisedfragow8.jpg)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7876/15lbfrag005sr1.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=15lbfrag005sr1.jpg)
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/9034/15lbfrag002sa6.th.jpg (http://img452.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=15lbfrag002sa6.jpg)
wetpowder June 26th, 2007, 12:37 PM

ST got it.
Tube
You are answering a post that is 6 years old.:rolleyes:
209 June 26th, 2007, 11:17 PM

Yeah, I went and looked at the date when I saw that Craghack posted a reply, I haven't seen him for a while.......
megalomania June 27th, 2007, 11:55 AM

The contribution of knowledge will always be appreciated by the future generations who have yet to discover this thread.
Adding new info to an old thread is far better than asking a question out of the blue of someone who has not been around for
half a decade (the Forum crime of necromancy, punishable by HED).
Zer4tul June 28th, 2007, 03:31 AM

ST got it.
Tube
As it is almost forth of July, and loud noises are not unusual, I have started experimenting with several mortar ideas. An idea i
tried that builds on the one above was simply cutting a 1-2" slot in both sides at about 6" from the top of the mortar pipe,
inserting a piece of lexan that matches the slot, and attaching a string/cord to the lexan piece. As with above, a nail or so is
attached to the endcap.
The round consists of a shotgun shell that has been emptied, filled with propellant, and sealed. The shotty shell is then
attatched firmly to the projectile that is about to be launched. (which in my case was simply a golf ball in a playdoh canister)
The round sits on top of the removable piece of lexan, and when the string is pulled, the piece pulls out, and the round falls
on nail. All at a nice safe distance. :)
SuperScience July 2nd, 2007, 04:04 PM

This zip file contains two documents; one includes detailed plans for homemade mortars:
http://rapidshare.com/files/40548618/requested_files.zip.html
Hope this helps!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Knife Techniques
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View Full Version : Knife Techniques
Eliteforum September 2nd, 2002, 07:50 PM

Firstly Id like to point out, that if this isnt the correct section, then please move it to where is.
There are different knife fighting styles, but in todays world its more about intimidation than the actual fighting. If an attack springs out on you, and you pull out a knife, and
start flicking it around, tw irling it this way and that, the attacker is going to think twice before attacking you, as it looks as though you know how to use a knife.
Well taking that thought into mind, Ive made two little short video clips showing you what you can do with the most basic of knifes.
The butter knife and a normal steak knife. The low frame rate on the butter knife video misses out most of what can be seen with the eye, but you get then general gist of it.
The steak knife one, is a little more advanced, w hich although lacks any real use in a knife fight or attack, it looks visually pleasing.
Well, I was just wondering if anyone else could make some videos as I have demonstrating different styles of knife tw irling and/or fighting styles.
Please bear in mind, in both videos I slip up a few times, after all we cant all be experts! :p
Files are on the ftp, links are below , they are active untill crtl_c moves them to there relevent folder.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/-=Uploads=-/butterknife.rar" target="_blank">Butter Knife< /a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/-=Uploads=-/steakknife.rar" target="_blank">Steak Knife</a>
Ctrl_C September 2nd, 2002, 09:01 PM

shoulda put them in your hosted images folder. They are there now and you can update your links.
zaibatsu September 2nd, 2002, 09:06 PM

Moving topic to improvised weapons...
Eliteforum September 3rd, 2002, 01:13 PM

Does anyone have any tips or techniques with butterfly knifes? Some stuff that can be done with them are visually stunning. As well as having some use in a knife fight.
sph3ric pyramid September 3rd, 2002, 01:36 PM

For tips and techniques: < a href="http://ww w.balisongxtreme.com" target= "_blank">http://w ww.balisongxtreme.com</a>
It's where I started out, and has video clips to go along with the written instructions. It concentrates mostly on opening technique.
However, most of the techniques illustrated w ithin the site have no practical combat usage, asides from a possible intimidation factor; the quickest and easiest opening is the
best (IMO the windmill).
If you look a little further, you can find sites w hich show the use of a closed balisong as a kubotan. Asides from this, don't know of any practical usages of a balisong (apart
from it's use as a knife, of course) departing from conventional use.
Edit- Double sig.
[ September 03, 2002, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: sph3ric pyramid ]
Machiavelli September 3rd, 2002, 05:41 PM

If someone pulled a balisong against me I'd probably hurt them real bad before killing them even badlier :D
These knives may look impressive but most of them are cheap dull toys and even the better ones are no combat knives. While most people don't know it, the balisong is no
ancient mystical weapon that sprung outta some philipino gods asshole or something, it's a fucking fishermen's knife and the only reason that it's so widely used in their martial
arts is that everyone was carrying one all the time.
So these funky whirlings may look mighty impressive but to use it effectively you have to train with it a lot and even then it's not that good, since it doesn't have a stable grip,
no hand protection and the fixation of the blade sucks, too, it wasn't made for combat after all.
Your steak knife is far superior, decent grip, you can't slip on the blade that easily and it's probably quite sharp.
Remember, when you're pulling a weapon you'll have to be prepared to use it, trying to impress others with nonexistant skills is fucking dangerous. You're threatening to attack
with a deadly weapon after all, life or death.
You might get a seasoned thug who'll spot you for a poser, since you've draw n your blade he's justified to do the same and he know s how to use it. Maybe he's even got a
gun.
Later his buddies w ill testify that he just slapped you a little bit and you suddenly drew a knife and tried to kill him so he had to defend his life.
You might get a little stupid punkass who panics seeing your blade, pulls out his $5 garbage knife and does an instinctive attack. This usually means arm stretched out wide,
attack in a circular motion against the rib torso.
Compared to other techniques it's extremely slow but it has one big advantage, if the attacker manages to stick you, most of the time it's straight to the heart.
And keep in mind that if you do the twirlie stuff, the attacker just needs to brush your knife maybe with the tip of his knife or his sleeve pulled over his hands and your knife
flies aw ay.
PYRO500 September 3rd, 2002, 08:25 PM

While some bailsong's might be dull and shitty I had one that was a real sturdy piece of technology, the flipping may be showing off a bit but to the average person with a "5$
garbage knife" this will show them they have had some practice, of course as with magicians the bailsong user can pull some fast dangerous moves on the other person. For
example, I've seen some pretty fast tricks with the knives that w ill distract an opponent ant then they throw the knife to there other hand and the opponent is caught of guard
is going to be suceptable to some hurt if he isn't careful.
[ September 03, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
frostfire September 3rd, 2002, 09:20 PM

aah, the "urban" style knife technique...yep, balisong is an impressive w eapon...to watch.
Carrying balisong the medium/large one around will surely cause you some consequences, w hile carrying steak knife with your steak lunch will only get you in trouble if you're
eating in library :)
Eliteforum, not sure what your technique looks like (can't see the video), but I'm assuming it's flipping the knife from the traditional pointing position into the blade pointing
downw ard (or at enemy) while the hand position is like a jab in boxing/ psycho stabbing position(beh, hard to describe w ithout drawings)
Anyway, like I mentioned at another thread, w ith tons of practice, you can throw these things pretty accurate; give me 3 steak knives (farberw are, tramontina etc) and 10 feet
distance, w hether you're moving or not, I'm pretty sure I can inflict a lot of pain if not fatality
[ September 03, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
Eliteforum September 3rd, 2002, 11:41 PM

The files w ere moved by ctrl_c to: <a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/eliteforum/" target="_blank"> Here</a>
The films are the two RAR files. Below are direct dow nload links.
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/eliteforum/butterknife.rar" target="_blank">Butter Knife< /a>
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/eliteforum/steakknife.rar" target="_blank">Steak Knife</a>

The "style" I do in both of them, isn't really something I learnt, just something I do, learnt myself kinda thing messing about wasting time w hile im cooking and what'not.
Looks fancy though, wouldn't have any use in a attack though. Well not unless the person your attacking is tied up..
Edit - hmm, tried to click on links after posting, but im getting a "/550 error. Permission Denied" error, so use an FTP client, if you want to dow nload the videos.
[ September 03, 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]
AmonDin September 4th, 2002, 12:19 AM

Just remember that any w eapon you bring into a combat situation can be taken and used against you. Be prepared for that man. I've only drawn a knife once, and even then, I
left it inside w hen the fists started flying.
Wonder what the legal requirement is for carrying around a 5-foot long katana. Gotta have something till I can get a concealed carry permit. Ah well, just a thought. Most
dangerous animal here is the wannabe-ghetto whiteboy, and I think that a sw ord longer than he is tall might make him think tw ice about throwing rocks through my fucking
window s. If not, hell, I've dealt with that trash before. No trouble at all to put a knee to his nads and a few swift punches to his nose and throat.
If you're going for intimidation, go for the gusto.
Keref September 6th, 2002, 11:49 AM

I like balisongs because they're fun to handle and impressive. BUT it's not a fighting kinfe, meaning it's bad metal, not sharpened enough...
But you can't say it's bad. While it takes several seconds to open a normal knife, it only takes 1 for balisongs, this time can be useful to save in some cases.
And if you want a good quality one, just check on <a href="http://w ww.benchmade.com" target="_blank"> Benchmade website</a> you must have heard about it. They
have high quality knifes ( 154 CM metal, strong alliage) and there's a balisong in their catalog. But expensive... Price for quality !
And you can have 2 balisongs, it's not like one-hand opening knives but it is a far more fun knife to have...
But I gonna buy a real fighting knife from Benchmade when I'm old enough to buy one...
link September 8th, 2002, 07:27 AM

I dont mean to disrespect any people who have posted to this thread, however "here it comes" some points needed to be said.
1. the balisong how ever great it looks in practice is not a viable fighting knife other than intimidating ten year olds. i love my balisongs i use them regularly and am proficient in
their use. however in a combat situation i wouldnt be without my cold steel SRK decent blade length reversible hand grip deep blood groove and serration along one whole side
of knife. Saying that i am not in a combat situation walking around the street. Therefore i dont carry one!!
2. If attacked by some idiot w ith a butterfly knife or steak knife or butter knife, first rule of knifefighting as told by experts and lil old me is dont panic, prepare to be cut along
the arms if even only slightly its ineviatable. Better to be cut slightly on the arm than deeply stabbed in the chest.
3. improvised weapons that surround you every day can out do that knife weilding drop kick for example a garbage bin lid cracked into assailants face or a starpicket or peice of
pipe stabbed through assailants head, can work w onders.
4. go learn a real martial art or join the military not the bullshit military as a cook or clerk but as infantry recon or special forces i believe after ten years special forces you will
have the confidence to not have to carry a knife around in any circumstance other than w ar.
5. I apoligize if i hurt anyones feelings but i feel i had a valid point if you are a predator you dont fear your prey.
chemwarrior September 8th, 2002, 04:48 PM

If I get around to it once I have an FTP account, Ill upload guide to knife fighting that I found in some old millitary goods store.
chemwarrior September 10th, 2002, 07:18 AM

Damn, I cannt seem to so much as even find the file...

If you're using a knife as a deadly weapon, you're going to be stabbing that bastard deep into the sternum angled upwards under the ribcage, kidneys, or neck (sawing it out).
Slashes look pretty gruesome, but that doesn't finish the fight.
Waving it around with fancy moves is just asking to having it whacked out of your hand and stuck up your ass by someone using a coat as a flail. Someone like me w ho has a
pound of lead shot sew n into the bottom hem of his coats for that very use. :)
A triangular spike is better than a knife. Not the plastic crap you can buy for $5, but an 8" steel/aluminium spike with bloodgrooves and razor sharp edges. This is w hat the OSS
issued during WW2. The w ound stays open to bleed, and the weapon can't be used for slashing, only stabbing, thus the only attack mode is the most fatal one.
With a spike, you can stab through a ballistic vest that would stop a regular knife, or through the skull for an impromptu field lobotomy. :D
As a defense against knives in countries that are really into that sort of thing (Spain, mexico, france), you could buy a set of kevlar sleeves (used by meatcutters) and sew
them into your coat sleeves. Then, if attacked, you can use your arms to shield yourself without getting them sliced to ribbons while you draw your ow n weapon or retreat. Oh,
and don't forget the lead shot in the coat hem.
link September 10th, 2002, 07:39 PM

Quoted from marc animal macyoung
When the conversation quoted above starts to head down that direction, I begin to feel an overw helming urge to put my forehead into my hand and shake my head, because I
know I am about to get a long dissertation on how great of a knife fighter this guy is. Yep, he's a knifefighter alright -- his business card even says so. And I *know * that I am
going to be regaled w ith awe inspiring tales of all the knife fights that his instructor not only survived - but gloriously won - using this awesome knife fighting system that
studmuffins now knows.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but this is like a virgin telling me he knows everything there is about sex because he's studied porno movies. The only people who are going
to be impressed are other virgins. And all the cocky arrogance the world about his training isn't going to change the fact, that such a person is still a virgin -- therefore NOT a
knifefighter.
And those of us who have been there -- having faced the horror and the terror of having someone actually try to kill us --take a dim view of this kind of sw aggering arrogance.
Not only is it dangerous to teach, but it totally ignores the awful realities of facing a knife in the hands of someone w ho wants to kill you.
And if you ever find yourself in a situation involving knives difference betw een reality and fantasy can - and will - either kill you or put you in prison. end quote
who cares, really if this technique works better than that w here talking about an edged weapon an instrument that will kill your opponent very quickly, or have you dead just as
quick.
in the combat sense if the fuckin towelheads come chargin i aint gunna be relying on my knife but good gun drills, and some pretty niffty chem warfare equip respirator etc, if it
came dow n to a knife fight.im in some serious shit 1st and 2nd who cares my job is going to be to kill another human being as quickly as possible so i will use w hats available.
what is anyone thinking carrying a knife for self protection, its a w eapon to kill if confronted with some one w ith a knife in a street CONFRONTATION i will say again, w hatever i
see around me i can use as quickly and as violently as possible through there fucking skull, this negates the legal process by removing the victims claims to compensation. what
more needs to be said.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > A-BOMB got a digital cam era!
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A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2002, 01:22 PM

W ell I've gone and done it I got myself 3 digital cameras (1 bought 2free), well you m ust be wond ering why this is in
I m p r o v i e d W eapons, well I've been just taking pictures of all m y gear lately. These are the specs for the differnt cam eras <a
href="http://www.aiptek.com" target="_blank">www.aiptek.com</a> the first cam era is a pocket DV, the next a m ini pencam
1.3meg rather nice for some thing that I got fo r free, now let m e e x p l a i n while I was out at bestbuy looking for m e m o r y I
f o u n d t h i s o p e n e d p a ckage fo r the mini pencam so I gave it to the guy at the cam era cou nter, well he asked me if I wanted it
because he was just going to through it away because it was missing the cables, software, and instructions and was kinda be at
u p s o I s a i d y e s , t h e n I f o u n d t h e p o c k e t D V c a m e r a h a d t h e s a m e cable as the other, an d was on sale so I bought it. So I got
two cam eras for the price of one. And the other one is a junky one from the bargin bin at officemax it was only $15 dollars but
with a gift certifficate I had it was free to. So on to the pics.
next a cherry bom b <a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted % 2 0 I m a ges/New%20Folder/IMAGE21.JPG"

target="_blank">cherry bom b</a>
m y m odified flare guns
now one of m y 2 0 g a u g e f l a r e g u n
*
now a few of my long barrel 12 gauge flare gun 12 gauge action closed *
* 12 gauge action open
now a pic of the binder in m y grey-tak

*
now what you all bin waiting for a pic of m e! *
More pictures to com e !

---------------
i strongly suggest re edit this post to be less revealing. this is for your own good. once you have m odifed certain pictures you
are welcom e to rem ove my edit with your own edit fucntion. - kingspaz
<sm a l l > [ S e p t e m b e r 0 4 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 9 : 4 8 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : A - B O MB ]</sm all>
Keref S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2002, 11:32 AM

W as there you identity card as a ladde r just near all your stuffs ? :D
I was wondering about buying a sm all digital camera, since it's pretty good to take photos of those illegal stuffs; furtherm ore,
getting your photos d e v e l o p p e d , w i t h e x p l o s i o n s o n t h e m wouldn't be a good thing :)
But they're pretty expensive.
Maybe i'll once take a shity one with sm all reso lution... 128*56 :-)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > W hite Phosphorus Grenade
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Holotex S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2002, 06:37 PM

S o m e testing was done for designing a W P G r e n a d e . T h i s w a s d o n e o n s m all scale,quantities varie d from 7 .5 to 18 gr WP.
HMT D was used as explosive,quantities varied from 3 to 0.6 gr. To be more specific WP/HMTD; 7.5/3 , 10/0.6 , 18/0.6 . The
bodies were m ade of the closed part of Al sigar container,diam. from 15 to 24 m m , l e n g h t m a x . 4 c m . T h e i n n e r c o n t a i n e r ( s )
consisted of the sam e t y p e s i g a r p a c k a g i n g d i a m . 1 5 m m and for 0.6 gr HMTD a plastic lim onade drinkstra w was used. The
HMT D was loaded into the same type of inner container,only a fraction smaller,resulting in a device with a seperated explosive
c h a r g e / d e t o n a t o r . T h e s e c a n c o m b i n e d i n a s e c o n d w h e n the tim e is righ t. Unfortunatly the results were not really satisfieing.
The WP pulverised into dust leaving a thick cloud of white sm oke in the first test.Later some burning fragm ents were observed
but they didn't touched the ground. It's a fact that the size of the fragm e n t s a n d t h e i r r a n g e d e p e n d s o n t h e G r e n a d e b o d y ,
construction,am ount of W P , a m o u n t o f e x p l o s i v e a n d t y p e o f e x p l o s i v e . T h i s v a r i a tion can be observed with different m o d e l s o f
W P Bom bs from different countries,from different times. I will soon post a link with all the pictures I found on the in ternet. Has
anyone som e suggestions about a better(less brisant)e xplosive and the % WP/expl. to m ake less and bigger fragments with a
larger range ?
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2002, 11:35 PM

P r e - g r a n u l a t e t h e W P a n d e m b e d t h e g r a n u l e s i n a r u b b e r c e m ent matrix.
This is known in the military as PWP (Plasticized White Phosphorus).
Furthur details are in SIPRI's "Incendiary Weap ons" PDF on the FTP. You could get a copy from a m e m ber who already has it.
chemwarrior S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 07:20 AM

I f I m n o t m istaken, isnt there only one particular way to rem ove p h o s p h o r u s o n c e i t h a s e n t e r e d y o u s k i n ?
a_bab S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 07:44 AM

W hite P doesn't "enter" into your skin (like mustard gas), it only burns the skin. It is sim ilar to a liquid which burns very hot,
because it m elts at about 40 degrees C.
It can be neutralised with a co pper sulphate solution, which will react with phosphorus.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 09:17 AM

C o p p e r s u l p h a t e a s a phosphorus burn treatm ent is asking for kidney failure. Wh en poured on a WP burn, it'll stop the WP
from burning , but the n the copper is absorbed through the woun d where it's transported to the kidney and destroys it. The
treatment can kill you where the WP burn wouldn't have.
S.O.P. in the m ilitary is simple washing with water and covering with wet gauze till the wound can be debridded under a UV lam p
to get all the W P particles.
For W P grenades, a standard #8 detonator was sufficient for a pound of W P to be scattered over a 30+m eter radius. So your
ratios were m assive overkill.
W P m ay m elt at 40*C, but it burns at over 1,200*C. O h, and it VERY toxic by absorbtion through the burn. Something around
5 0 m g will kill a man.
xoo1246 S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 09:37 AM

I rem ember when I was in chemistry class 15 years old, our chem istry teacher descided to burn som e W P. W e were hanging
out of the window after that coughing.
a_bab S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 10:12 AM

Y e a h , t h e l e t h a l d o s e of white P is around 100 m g. So, with the phosphorus contained by a human (in the bones) you can kill
10,000 people !
I personally don't think that there is a danger in using copper sulphate for treatin g the phosphorus burns since the reaction
takes tim e quite fast (like a n eutralisa tion) and the cop per sulphate is not that toxic. The lethal dose is over 5 grames as I
remem ber. So there isn't enough time to be absorbed enough.
...But only if we are dealing with sm all areas (like a accidental burned hand). Actually I know this a s a urgent m e t h o d t o b e
used in a lab in case of a phosphorus accident.
Y e s x o o , t h e f u m e s p r o d u c e d b y t h e p h o s p h o r u s b u r n i n g are phosphorus pentaoxide, a very toxic chem ical which will form with
the m oisture from the lungs p hosphoric acid. Q uite nasty. Chough chough !
vulture S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 11:17 AM

IIR C, P2O5 is NOT toxic by itself, only corrosive because it form s p h o s p h oric acid in contact with water.
EDIT: Holotex, as you have acces to white phosphorus, why don't you collect your P2O5? You could be dehydrating glacial
acetic acid into acetic anhydride! <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
<sm all>[ September 10, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</sm all>
a_bab S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 01:02 PM

Yeah Vulture, you are right. It's not toxic as stated here: <a href="http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/
p h o s p h o r u s _ p e n t o x i d e.html" target="_blank">http://ph yschem . o x . a c . u k / M S D S / P H / p h o s p h o r u s _ p e ntoxide.html</a>
T h e r e a r e d u m b a s s e s s o m e who are labeling chem icals with "VERY TOXIC" if these chems are corrosive or irritants. Is just like
labe ling sulphuric acid as "toxic".
Now I remem b e r t h a t t h e f u m e s f o r m e d by the burning of P in clorine are toxic, and not P pentaox ide.
Talk i n g a b o u t P p e n t a o x i d e , w h a t a b o u t m aking an instalation for producing P from apatite or bones (with coal and sand) ?
Maybe a new project ? In this way it can be produced in large quantities.
vulture S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 01:19 PM

I know, there are just plain morons who would ban hydrogen hydroxide, just because they don't realize it's water!
chemwarrior S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 04:03 PM

From what I found ou t from m y father today, white phosphorus can only be stoped once it becomes covered in blood. Then you
have to take a special gel stuff and but it on the wound and then you can pull whatever is left of the phosphorus. (You have to
use the gel so that the phosphorus wont com e into contact with the air because, acording to m y da d, it will reginite...of course
what the m ilitary uses m ight not be just phosphorus, but a m ixture of a couple th ings causing that.) Any co m m e n t s b e c a u s e I
a m curious a bout what that gel likely is.
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 04:30 PM

Its just petro leum jelly, nothing special about it.

Ahh, the way m y d a d m a d e i t s o u n d , I t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s s o m e t h i n g m o re.
Holotex S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 06:08 PM

S o m e nice pics of Phosphorus Bom b s / G r e n a d e s f r o m W W1 to Vietnam are posted on this link,just take a look... <a
href="http://groups.msn.com /krypton23" targe t="_blank">Pictures</a> click on "afbeeldingen" to see them.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 06:31 PM

Usin g Any petroleum product on WP is BAD. W P dissolves in petroleum , including vaseline, making it liable to absorbtion and/
or ignition of the petroleum.
Straight wate r only on W P . A - b a b , r e a d t h e S I P R I b o o k p r e v i o u s l y m entioned for why using copper is bad.

NBK, is there anything other than water that can be used and that is safe ?
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2002, 07:41 PM

W ell, by the way he said "water only", I'd guess not...
W o u l d u r i n e b e o k i n a n e m ergency, being m ostly water?

Urine can be used too if that's all you got.
Intense mechanical treatm ent (scalpel, forceps, and pads) unde r irrigation or im mersion with a 1% Potassium Perm a n g a n a t e
in 5% Sodium Bicarbonate water solution should be perform ed till lum ino usity under UV lighting ceases, indicating a ll the W P
has been nuetralized.
This treatment is extremely painful and is best done under anaesthesia.
T h e K p e r m o x i d i z e s t h e W P into acid oxides which are nuetralized by the bicarb into harmless phosphates.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Penetrating thick skinned targets?
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Zyklon_B September 10th, 2002, 03:59 AM

With the invention of reactive armor and super alloys found on new Tanks, Is there any possible Rocket or cannon that could
be created by a civilian with limited resources?
I know of the new "rail" technology using magnetic fields to propel flechette like projectiles at terminal velocities, but these
seem a tad too fragile and expensive for field use or practical construction. Not to mention the vast electricity required.
I did see a television special on a remote controlled robot fitted with a huge explosive device and large copper plate as a
projectile. The robot is of course one time use only.
hodehum September 10th, 2002, 04:39 AM

S h o u ldn t this be in im provised weapons or detonation and de molition?
Well to combat reactive armour military anti-tank missiles are now being fitted with dual shaped charges (one destroys the
reactive armour blocks while th e other penetrates) that are pla ce d at slightly different angles. However I m no t sure how
something like this would be improvised, it would most likely have to be placed on the armoured vehicle by hand as a missile
system of such design would not really be viable on the civilian market, and good luck placing it by hand :rolleyes: .
The robot you saw was called Fire Ant , I believe there was a large post a while ago abo ut this and a lot of the theo ries about
improvising a such device where discussed <a href="http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/may01/20011117-4-000166.html"
target="_blank">here</a>.
It uses a EFP (Explosively Formed Projectile) to defeat armour and is destroyed upon detonation, but I believe they are able
to make designs that are reusable now.
Machiavelli September 10th, 2002, 06:54 AM

Baka. Moving to improvised weapons.
Anthony September 10th, 2002, 11:27 AM

Doesn't matter what armour tanks have, knock the tracks off and they're still fucked! :)
Bitter September 10th, 2002, 11:55 AM

Knock off the tracks like Anthony says and shove something down the barrel. It's not only unable to move, it's now unable to
do any serious damage. Knocking off the tracks can be a problem, though. The tracks on some of the lighter tanks and APCs
look pretty pathetic- the sort of thing you could damage with a hand grenade, although the tracks on something like a
challenger or an abrahams would need a large quantity of C-4 or equivalent or a gun of at least 20mm calibre to damage. In
the unlikely event of anyone being able to get close enough, there is always the option of spraying over vision slits with a can
of paint.
Anthony September 10th, 2002, 07:36 PM

I still think the old idea has some credit to it - lure the tank into an enclosed area, such as an alleyway in an urban
environment, or a wooded area, or highsided lane.
Have on either side, an oil drum of ANFO, or maybe even 5gal bucket would do it is was close enough to the tracks.
Wait for the tank to pass between the drums and detonate them simultaneously. I'm sure the colliding shockwaves would kill
the crew instantly. The massive overpressure may well collapse the tank.
Heavy resource usage and certainly not portable, but easily improvised. If you're in a rural farming area, there's going to to be
tons of AN and diesel everywhere.
Another possibility is an explosively launched projectile. During WW2 a 1lb iron cube was propelled by 10lbs of TNT. It would
penetrate the side of the tank and then bounce around inside turning the crew into cho suey :D . I'm not sure if it would be at
all effective against modern tank armour, and 10lbs of TNT a shot is kinda costly.
One thing I've always wondered, is when do fired tank shells arm? If they arm by the rotation of the round as it's fired through
the rifling of the barrel, then it should be armed before it leaves the barrel. Thus may be susceptible to a rock jammed in the
muzzle :)
I always remember a part of film, or TV program set during WW2. There's a battle going on in an urban environment and a
sniper in a clock tower (how cliche). A tank spots the sniper and raises it's gun to blow the sniper away, the sniper sees the
inevitable coming and just sort of gives up.
Personally, I'd be running for my life down the stairs... But I did wonder, would it have done any good for the sniper to have
fired down the tank's barrel? If not to try and detonate the round in the breach, possible to damage so that it possibly doesn't
function properly when fired. Or possibly to simply obstruct the barrel with the fired bullets, possibly detonating the round in
the barrel, or splitting the barrel/destroying the round upon firing?
Rather a last ditch attempt at survival than a strategy really :)
Eliteforum September 10th, 2002, 09:45 PM

Wasn't Saving Private Ryan was it? Was on not long ago on C5.
Southern Warrior September 10th, 2002, 10:18 PM

Hell, the armor on top of the tank is usually the thinest. Or, you could put a "culvert bomb" in any possible path of an
armoured column, and set it of as the armoured vehicle passes over it, blowing off the treads.
Eliteforum September 11th, 2002, 05:40 AM

<img src="http://bulldogdirect.com/%20photos/install1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://bulldogdirect.com/%20photos/
install2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://bulldogdirect.com/%20photos/install4.gif" alt=" - " />
Instead of learning how to break through it, learn how to protect it! By "kit car armor"!
<a href="http://bulldogdirect.com" target="_blank">http://bulldogdirect.com</a> - Has more.
[ September 11, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Eliteforum ]
Microtek September 11th, 2002, 10:04 AM

How about using a fairly large amount of heaving explosive such as ANFO to flip the tank onto its back when it drove over the
mine.
Lifting a 60 ton tank 4 meters into the air would require 2400 KJ assuming 100 % efficiency. 210 g EGDN with 70 g Mg will
supply that much energy. Then you just need to take the inefficiency into account.
Mr Cool September 11th, 2002, 02:08 PM

50 gallon ANFO drum should do it then!
If I wanted to destroy a tank I'd preferably use an EFP, just because I think they're neat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> If not, then relatively big charges of a cheap HE like a cheddite or AN based comp to fuck the tracks, and
shove one down the barrel too if you can! But I'd imagine that would be very hard to do, assuming that you're trying not to
die.
Realistically, I think the best way would be to set mine-like devices (using lots of ANFO) somewhere that you know that tank
will go.
kingspaz September 11th, 2002, 05:30 PM

what about a shaped linear shaped charge land mine? i made a design for one a while back using easy common materials
and no metal work tools :) ...i'll upload it when i re-scan it.
Zyklon_B September 11th, 2002, 05:34 PM

Wouldn't a manhole be perfect for killing a tank? Since in a urban situation the streets are filled with them I would think they
would be a perfect place to put a mine. The manhole cover would itself become the projectile penetrating the tank from
underneath. A few small drums of ANFO would probably do the job.
Also from this idea I think in a more forest area the same type of setup can be applied. In the middle of the road, a tunnel
could be dug and filled with anfo and a large steel or copper plate could be put over the top and the hole could be closed back
over with gravel or earth and a triggering device could be improvised using a device deer hunters use to take pictures of deer
passing near their location:
<img src="http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Pod/01/00/82/p010082sq01.jpg" alt=" - " />
I am not sure if this device will not funtion on fast moving large vehicles, but it would defenetly also be viable for anti-personel
traps or a Home-Made Fire Ant.
Spudgunner September 11th, 2002, 06:44 PM

That would work, however, whenever anything of a decent size (deer, people, dogs even) went by, you would set off TONS of
explosive. Kind of overkill for a deer and makes it rather obvious you were trying to take out a tank. Best way to solve that is
either use a pressure switch that is set for anything over 2 tons (for tanks and APCs) or 500 pounds for vehicles, OR, use an
infrared motion dector that is set for LARGE amounts of heat that a tank would put out. Otherwise you get a big hole, no
explosives left, and you can't even eat the meat of the deer you killed because particles of it have landed three counties over.
Spud
Mick September 12th, 2002, 12:08 AM

doesn't it seem stupid that one company build a super tank with impenatrable armor, then they release the details of the
tank.
so the company next door builds a rocket launcher to defeat next doors tank...
so they build another tank...etc etc etc
has anyone heard of a "monopoly"?
good to see your billions of tax dollars hard at work :D .
J.T.Ripper September 12th, 2002, 09:58 AM

Firstly this is a really cool thread.
I would take down a tank like an Abraham with paint, petrol,cement, sniper, and 25 pounds of ANFO .
This is a general plan that could be used with variations to certain parts.
first, day or night have lots of people throw water ballons filled with black paint at the tank trying to get the windows. If this
seems to risky try luring the tank down an ally way and have garbage bags full or paint hanging so they will burst when the
tank tares them.
Second, The tank has hopfully got no vision, and it can't move is main gun because of the ally on either sides.
{the M60 on top is only design flaw with the abrahams a man has to be out side the tank to shoot it.}So they open the hatch
to get a man up there maning the gun and directing the tank. sniper shoots him and makes it bloody to add to the panic
inside the tank.
Third, the 25 kilo sack of ANFO is used to close the end of the ally the tank has already come down leaving it only one
entrance. down the other end.
Fourth, The tank meets a nice deep semi-thick patch of wet cement thats covered with old carpet(or camoflaged to the
souroudings).
it goes in and can't move.
Five, hatch is still probebly open pour petrol in and throw in a match. The is a sprinkler system in the tank but the crew will still
burn or die from breathing smoke. if the petrol doesn't work drown em out and use the sniper to kill em as they come up for
air.
a bit complex but for a small gurilla outfit it shouldn't be that hard to get all that organised.
A-BOMB September 12th, 2002, 10:15 AM

Trust me the the only thing taking down a M1A3 (abrams) is a M1A3 or a massive excess of explosive like a 1/4ton. I mean
they have a a 5-6" layer of of DU/composite/Ti armor, a 120mm main gun, 2 7.62mm m240's a .50 m2 HB on top and some
times a mk19 in 40x53mm HV grenade launcher and other goodies. And they can go 60+ mhp with the speed controler
disabled and they weigh in excess of 70 tons. Oh and I almost forgot They Can fire the M2 on top from inside.
[ September 12, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]
Spudgunner September 12th, 2002, 01:15 PM

Wow, a quarter ton eh? 500 lbs is an awful lot (not financially, but just a lot period). Oklahoma city was only like 2 tons and
you saw the damage that did, I imagine a hundred pounds SHOULD be sufficient if it were right next to the tank. Then again,
I wouldn't know as I have never seen ANFO go off, much less in 50-500 pound quantities.
Spud
john_smith September 12th, 2002, 01:43 PM

As much as I know, Platter charges have a size limitation. Can't remember exactly what it was, but a manhole cover is far
beyond that. However, I guess that a couple of drums of ANFO in a manhole would fuck a tank up badly, Platter or not.
xoo1246 September 12th, 2002, 02:41 PM

Why don't you have a look at kinepaks ftp then, there is a video showing 50lbs going off.
Throwing paint at a modern tank/APC will do little, and a tank crew will avoid urban areas if they don't have to enter, and then
infantry and artillery will strike first. A modern tank/APC will see your heat signature at a long distance and if it suspects an
ambush it will get of the road, and drive as fast as it can in your direction(trying to run you over)spraying machine gun fire and
H.E. shells. A modern tank can take many well aimed hits from shaped charges projectiles(most likely it wont affect it much).
Want to se what an AT-mine does to an old civilian vehicle?
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/mine01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/
mine01.jpg</a>
mine02.jpg</a>
mine03.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/mine04.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/mine04.jpg
</a>
Images are from my time in the military(what made me an anarchist), oh, the fools.
Edit: Oh, and if you don't remember, palestinans has destroyed one of the high tech israeli tanks. There has been a post on
the subject.
[ September 12, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
EP September 12th, 2002, 09:46 PM

Helvetica"> Fourth, The tank meets a nice deep semi-thick patch of wet cement thats covered with old carpet(or camoflaged to
the souroudings). it goes in and can't move.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think that's a practical method of trapping
a tank. First of all, the patch of wet cement would have to be the length of the tank and very deep because those tanks can
go through deep water and mud just fine...
***
edit: and you'd have to know the tank was coming so you don't pour it and just have it get hard... You'd probably need
multiple cement truck loads, hardly practical for urban warfare.
***
Seems like it would take quite a bit of ANFO to take out a tank because they are hardened on the bottom to protect from
mines. The Israeli tanks are called Merkava's, I'll have to look for that thread, I don't remember how it was destroyed.
[ September 12, 2002, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: EP ]
J.T.Ripper September 12th, 2002, 11:01 PM

Your right about the cement.
You just need some way of traping the tank so you can go to work on it. Im not sure what the abrhams armour is made from
but maybe using lots and lots of thermite might be and option. just burn a hole into that section of the tank that hold the
shells set one off and there's a deadly chain reaction. or destroy the engine somehow. This won't work on Abraham becasue of
there great f***ing design.
check out <a href="http://www.howstuffworks.com/m1-tank.htm" target="_blank">http://www.howstuffworks.com/m1-

tank.htm</a>
Zyklon_B September 12th, 2002, 11:30 PM

Can someone post a link to the Palestinian tank killing thread?
The Palestinians have the advantage of being forced to fight in the streets.
Back on subject, I was told by a person in the military that if a tank has its optical sight damaged, it will be forced to retreat
every time. A tank that cannot fight, isn't much of anything.
In this picture you can see the IR/targetting device on the turret of the tank:
<img src="http://www.mainbattletanks.czweb.org/Tanky/m1a2.jpg" alt=" - " />
If you want to atleast remove the tank from the battle feild, you must atleast crack the glass with either sniper fire or heavy
machinegun fire, two things a tank would engage first and from LONG distances anyways. If you could pull this off while the
tank is at base at night lets say, you could take the tank out of operation for awhile.
Still, not exactly what I was hoping for but I hope this helps some other people interested in this thread.
vulture September 13th, 2002, 12:21 PM

How about blowing pure oxygen into the tanks air intake? the chemwarfare sensors won't alert for oxygen and the oxygen
percentage in the tank will rise steadily. If you manage to get the O2 percentage to above 70%, a little heat or a spark will
ignite anything(crews clothes, papers, traces of ammo) in the tank leading to a very hot fire.
Remember the Appolo ground test accident, the crew was in 100% oxygen en burned to cinders.....

FAEs commes in mind, so does destroying the tracks with mines and at the same time setting it on fire with a barrel of slow
burning napalm.
But I don't know how the ventilation system of a tank works, are there some sort closed system, to protect the crew from
sudden overpressure or fires?
leonvios September 13th, 2002, 01:42 PM

Why not find where a tank is stationed place aim a small pipe at it with a timed trigger system that will fire a metal ball
bearing at the tank. The tank will turn its attention to the pipe and maybe the turret as well. Then run up to the other side and
place explosives on the other side of the tracks and run or fire some powerful rocket launcher at the tracks to damage them.
Or get one or two people to fire at the tank with guns then run down a street where you have some other people there onto of
the roof to fire at the tank with home made powerful rockets then through down as many grenades as possible be fore the
crew of the tank knows what has happened then the one or two people fires runs around the long way back to the other side of
the street and places mine there. Then the tank will try to reverse back out onto the mines and hen they will try to go foreword
into more mines so they are trapped then the guys on the roofs if not dead run as well as the people on the ground. (Dont
push your luck if the tank has not been destroyed already).

The M1A2 has an air filter system which screens for chemical or biological agents present in the air and filters them out. Wow,
that must be somekind of mini gaschromatography lab with filter systems and all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" />
Unless it measures the oxygen percentage, it could be possible to gas the crew by simply replacing the oxygen by N2 or CO2.
EDIT: Anybody consider EMP as a possibility? It's a high tech tank so it's packed with electronics. However, if it is protected
against indirect nuclear blast effects or it has a full (no large openings or open structure, faraday principle) metal cage inside
an improvised microwavegun (see <a href="http://www.powerlabs.org" target="_blank">www.powerlabs.org</a>) might have
no effect. If it penetrates you could maybe cook the crew inside..you would need a very powerful microwave though... :D
[ September 13, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]

As far as I know, UK and US armies have both tried to develop a guided/heatseeking mortar shell in late 80's, and both
actually got it working to some extent, yet the price/efficiency ratio of these sucked, hence no serial production. However, if
you don't need the thing to have more range than a block or two (as opposed to 2-3 miles) or to be easily produceable, or
idiotproof, and so on, it probably wouldn't be too hard to improvise.
The IR-homing control system could be replaced by a simple model aircraft RC and a miniature wireless surveillance camera.
They ain't very expensive, these days (of course, you'd need some sort of amp). Jamming would be a threat, but since RC
controlled weapons are rare for this very reason, and your opponent likely wouldn't be aware of your armament (if you're smart
:D ), and it'd be a one-off operating at unknown frequency, your chances would be pretty good.
As for the shell, it probably could be done just like a model sailplane, just with smaller symmetrical profile wings/tail and of
sturdier metal or GRP construction, and launched either from a spigot mortar, or have a dowel attached like a bottle rocket or
anarchist crapbook's shotgun-propelled molotov cocktail.
I guess this would be quite accurate, and could hit a tank on the weaker-armored top of the turret, or even the hatch... :D

right, heres the landmine...the writing may be a little hard to read...
just one thing to add is that the explosive should be right up against the right angle section but i drew a gap because i hadn;t
considered everything :rolleyes:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/linearshapedchargelandmine.JPG" target="_blank">http://
www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/linearshapedchargelandmine.JPG</a>
copy and paste link.
MrSamosa September 14th, 2002, 11:05 PM

Here's how the Palestinians took out the Israeli Merkava-3 tank: With a big freaking bomb of blackpowder. Yes, that's right:
BLACK POWDER.
In one incident, they lured the tank to the area by ambushing a bus. When the tank came, it ran over the big 110 lbs black
powder bomb, and blew the tank to pieces. I'm pretty sure it was blackpowder, that's what I remember reading off HAMAS's
website.
However, there have been a few widely-publicized incidents where tanks have been destroyed; i don't think all of them used
big big black powder charges...
ENGINEERKILLER September 15th, 2002, 02:26 AM

The picture that Zyklon posted was taken out at where I am stationed The pod on top is of the commanders thermal image
finder and the glass is 3 inches thick and coated with thorium so are all the vision blocks.The abrams has redundant every
thing 2 sets of tracks on each side if the electronic sites fail it has a straight optical backup and if that fails the m240 coaxial
machine gun becomes the spotting rifle for the 120mm main gun .There is a regular blasting machine to fire the round off if
the electricity dies.The breach for the main gun is three inches thick and runs from the breachblock to the trunion which is
mounted just inside the three feet of armor thatis the front of the turret hull.The fire extinguisher is a flame sensing
automatic halon purge system and that has a backup manual and an extra halon bottle.The nbc system is an overpressure
system that just pushes filtered air through the track constantlywith 2 filters and blower motors.The thinnest part of the turret
is three inches thick and is over the the main gun ammo rack which is only held in place by 4 bolts so if the ammo goes the
rack will give out before the crew compartment can be breached.It can cross a 9 foot trench climb a 4 foot wall it is 12 feet wide
and 19 feet long weighs 72 tons combat loaded goes 300 miles on a tank of gas and has a 1,500 horse power diesel turbine
engine .
It's sop for the crew not to chamber a round in the main gun until its ready to fire. The HEAT round for the gun is a fin
stabilized piezoelectric graze sensitive fuze that is not fully armed until the round leaves the barrel and begins to deaccelerate
additionaly the tank has six remote fired WP grenades on each side.Getting a tanker out of his track is like asking him to give
up his first born and if the do come out each soldier carries an M-4 and plus the M240s can be dismounted and carried.
xoo1246 September 15th, 2002, 04:53 AM

MrSamosa: Blackpowder? Blew the tank in pieces? The source doesn't feel reliable.
Kingspaz: Wouldn't the mine need some sort of standoff to give better effect? It could easiely be fixed by placing another box
on top of the liner, with a thin layer of metal covering the opeing to keep dirt and water out.
Edit: did a fast search and found this.

Helvetica"> Three IDF soldiers were killed and two more wounded when a tank drove over a land mine on the Karni - Netzarim
road in the central Gaza Strip shortly before 7:00 a.m.
Rescue forces had difficulty in freeing the bodies of the victims trapped in the tank.
The families of the fallen soldiers have been informed.
One of the wounded was standing outside of the vehicle, which was escorting a civilian convoy. Both sustained moderate
wounds in the blast.
An IDF helicopter evacuated the wounded to Soroka Hospital in Beersheba.
Terrorists hiding in a nearby mosque detonated the powerful 50 kilo (110 pounds) remote-controlled explosive charge
beneath the armored vehicle.
The area was closed to traffic as a giant crane was brought to the scene to tow away the remains of the Merkava 3 tank. The
force of the explosion reportedly blew the turret off the vehicle.
The attack took place one month to the day after Palestinians blew up a Merkava 3 on the same road, also killing three
soldiers.
As in the Feb. 14 attack, the blast went off beneath the $3 million, 60-ton tank, ripping through its relatively vulnerable
underbelly, military sources said.
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Fatah's Aksa Brigades both claimed responsibility.
The DFLP, in a statement released in Damascus, said the attack came in reprisal for recent Israeli military strikes against
Palestinian targets.
In the wake of the attack, Palestinian Authority security officials and witnesses said 15 armored vehicles and three bulldozers
headed towards the nearby Nuseirat refugee camp and demolished eight houses and a security post.
The armored vehicles also destroyed crops and irrigation systems in the area, the officials said.
Witness Jamal Wahedi, 35, said Israeli troops indiscriminately fired machine guns toward the neighborhood, and that
residents were not permitted to retrieve belongings from their homes ahead of the demolitions.
Following last month's attack, the first time a Merkava-3 was destroyed, the army said that its armored units "will learn the
relevant lessons" and it spoke of the need to reassess operational practices in the light of the new methods of attack being
used by the Palestinians.
Military commentator Ron Ben-Ishai said it was not clear if the army had indeed learned from the experience.
"Apparently not," he said. "Or if it's learned the lessons it hasn't yet implemented them. It needs to be understood that if the
army is too sluggish (to adapt) it will take losses. This is bad, very bad."
According to London-based defense publisher Jane's, the Merkava is the only battle tank with the engine in front of the turret,
to give the crew extra protection against enemy fire from the front.
The cannon shells are not stored in the turret but inside the hull at the back, and the fuel is also at the rear.
However, the underside of the Merkava, like that of all main battle tanks, is the least protected. This is because the weight
must not exceed about 60 tons for the tank to cross bridges and be transported on flatbed trucks
<hr /></blockquote>More...
Helvetica"> The French analysts also note that they, too, not only the Israeli defence planners, are quite surprised that the
Palestinians were able to deploy an explosive device which in their estimation had an explosive force of at least 100kg, as it
sent the 60-ton tank flying into the air and left an enormous crater, estimated to be over a metre deep and measure several
metres in diameter. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> The army said
it was preparing to respond to the attack, which marked the first time a roadside bomb managed to seriously penetrate an
Israeli tank's armor in the territories. Even in roadside bomb attacks in Lebanon over the past decade the armor of Israeli
tanks has never been hit hard enough to strike an entire tank crew.
Military officials said half an hour before the tank was hit, Palestinians opened fire on a civilian convoy guarded by soldiers and
set off a bomb that damaged a bus but caused no injuries. The army sent a tank into the area and a huge bomb exploded
under it in what appears to have a planned two-stage gun-and-bomb ambush. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility.
The tank was toppled on its side and the turret blown off. The only surviving member of the tank crew was evacuated by
helicopter to Soroka Hospital in Beersheba.
Channel Two television reporter Sagi Bashan was lightly injured by shrapnel when Israeli soldiers opened fire on him for trying
to circumvent a checkpoint while covering the rescue operation. Basham told the soldiers they did not have the right to stop
him from entering the area unless they had a written order from the Southern Command indicating it was a closed military
area.
The soldiers said they did not have such an order, so he told them he was going in, got into his car and drove by. They then
opened fire.
The bomb, an unusually large and sophisticated one weighing perhaps scores of kilograms, apparently hit the Merkava 3 tank
- the most sophisticated and best protected model used by the IDF - at an unusual angle. It thus managed to penetrate the
armor, according to an initial army investigation of the incident. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe a large dug down hollow charge?
[ September 15, 2002, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
vulture September 15th, 2002, 06:11 AM

50 kilo of blackpowder in a strongly confined metal shell could cause a desastrous explosion according to me. Also, if the
media says it's blackpowder, they mean something improvised. Thus it could as wel be flashpowder or another highly energetic
pyrotechnic mixture.
The heat of 50 kilo pyrotechnic composition escaping all at once from a shell could maybe even melt or vaporize the weak
underside of the tank, no?
kingspaz September 15th, 2002, 09:31 AM

xoo, it is a VERY rough drawing but i think with some improvements such as what you suggested it could have some good
potential.

Yes, bascily a linear shaped charge with a pressure trigger.
Don't linear shaped charges need a startup distance before they function properly? I would decrease the angle and make it a
plate charge.
[ September 15, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
Asger September 15th, 2002, 02:56 PM

Again, if one has the possibility to get close to the tank a considerable amount of thermite down the main barrel could be
effective. Ofcourse it should be ignited right away.
Or thermite could weld the tracks together with some wheels.
In either case it is the awesome power of the tank itself that will cause its own destruction. Or at least some damage.
the_unbound September 15th, 2002, 06:34 PM

Actually as far as I can remember from my time in the army is, that you can knock out a tank with only 1 shot with a sniper
gun yo u have to hit the Exhaust arrange ment with the correct projectile ( consis ting of uran, wolfram or s.th . like this can t
sure remember). The position from where the shot comes is important, too.
And one has always to keep in mind which type of tank it is and where the thermal image camera is because as soon as
they know your position you ve lost.
We trained it and it works quite good with nearly every tank as long as you know where exactly you have to hit, because it
differs from tank to tank.
I think you can't get close enough to the tank and place thermite down the main barrel. In reality it would hardly be possible.

There seem to have been some rather kewl ideas brough up in this thread...
First let's forget about covering the tank in paint, or trapping it in quick setting cement as this isn't a Home Alone film, not a
Willy Coyote production...
Burning the tank with Napalm is unlikely to work, owing to it's huge thermal mass and the fact that it can drive out of a fire.
Burning through the tank with thermite is impractical, even if it could melt the armour, as we're talking about high melting
point metals and ceramics here, it would take a large amount of it. The tank crew isn't going to sit still and let you climb on
top while your mate tries to hoik a 50kg sack of thermite up to you.
Grenades aren't going to do shit to tank, so throwing them at it from above is going to be a waste of time. If you've got a
rocket launcher capable of damaging the tracks, why do you need to divert it's attention with a pipe projector to use it?
"Powerful homemade rockets", ah just the kind of technical and practical ideas we need... Modern armour piercing shaped
charges have trouble penetrating tank armour, but it's ok, we've got a COB filled with double base taped to an estes...
zaibatsu September 16th, 2002, 03:47 AM

Anthony, grenades aren't going to do anything from above? What about the shaped-charge hand grenades, with the cone at
the base of the grenade? Surely using these would be effective against the top armour of a tank, as it would be attacking
some of its weakest armour. However, how its actually going to manage to hit the tank is another matter.

A large tri-grenade sounds like a good idea about now :)
Bitter September 16th, 2002, 12:11 PM

That wouldn't work either.

I assumed he was refering to a standard issure frag grenade.
Even with a SC one, I wouldn't depend on it working, there's not a lot of explosive in something typically hand grenade sized
and modern armours are darn resilient.
Plus even with a sticky or magentic weapon, what's the odd of it actually attaching properly if you're throwing/dropping it onto
the taregt from a height?

now what about a rocket from above? with some experimentation i'm sure a decent rocket could be improvised. one capable of
penetrating tank armour is unlikely but it would still be useful against light targets such as hummers and civilian vehicles.
Asger September 16th, 2002, 05:59 PM

Can I just ask a question here :
Is the armour alloy of modern tanks magnetic ?
Is attaching magnetic devices an option at all ?
zaibatsu September 16th, 2002, 06:04 PM

There was a German WW2 "hand grenade", I use the term loosely. It weighed around 1kg and penetrated between 13 and
15cm of armour. Now, a 1kg hand grenade is a little heavy I think, and this was designed to be placed by hand on the tank
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> However, I think you could rectify this by having the shaped charge
grenade stabilised with streamers and having a BP charge to propell it upwards upon contact with the tank (to give it adequate
standoff) like the landmines that explode at waist height. However, there would be problems with getting the grenade to land
flat on the top of the tank, but I'm sure there'd be ways of fixing that.
While a 1kg grenade would be heavy, I'm confident you could cut that weight down using powerful explosives such as PETN
pressed to a high density.

any delay at all would result in the grenade angle being altered from flat if landing on an uneven surface. when he grenade
flies up it will do so at a non perpendicular angle to the ground and thus tumble, etc. even for a split second this could screw
stuff up. generally tanks are not too flat. most russian tanks infact have a hemishperical turret. also the tank surface is litered
with irregularities.
<a href="http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/5index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/
5index.htm</a>

True, but the main objective (in my eyes) is to punch a hole through the top into the crew compartment. Then a well aimed
FAE/WP incendiary/Chemical weapon could be very effective at taking care of the crew, or at least confuse them. Then you will
have time to do more to the tank. While they are confused, blow the tracks. The best air filtration in the world will have a bit of
a problem when the seal is broken :) IMO of course.

How are you going to counter the reactive armour if attacking with a SC?

Attack from above with multiple SCs. First one will set of the ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor), the rest will attack the tank
armour directly.
You're not likely to get a TK (Total Kill=Tank destroyed and crew dead), but more likely an FK (Functional Kill=Tank
immobilized or unable to use its weapons). An FK will do, especially if you can pick off the crew as they try to escape, or use
them as bait to lure more of the enemy into an ambush.
A kilo sized SC dropped on the engine compartment would almost certainly immobilize a tank.

Dropping a SC grenade on a tank would probably work, but only if you have a conviniently placed high-rise building to do it
from. And better forget it about placing anything on the tank by hand. Unless the enemies are a bunch of braindamaged
idiots they won't send a tank without infantry to watch it's six. Building rockets at home is THE bitch, at least in mmy
experience. Too many variables to get everything the same every time. I've never even got one flying straight, let alone hit a
target. And you'd still need the building. However, the guided mortar shell described above would theoretically have a good
chance of working...I think. If it works it could hit with more accuracy than any $XXX.000 heat-seeker, and you even don't have
to be in enemy's visual range to use it. Just place the "mortar" on other side of a building or whatever, launch it, and take
over when it has passed it's apogee and starts falling. Building these would be expensive, but not extremely so. And I guess
it'd be easier than making good rockets. Just my $(or EUR :D )0.02, any comments welcome.

You can stabilize rockets by making a spudgun/rocket combo.
The rocket is placed in a closed tube with some NC as cannon propellant. (checkout powerlabs) After the rocket leaves the
barrel the engine is ignited. This way a high velocity (up to mach 2 atleast) and straight flightpath could be achieved. It's also
easily improvised. A 1kg projectile at mach 2+ packs an insane amount of kinetic energy. If you add a charge to counter
reactive armor, you could do some serious damage to the weaker parts, especially tracks.

You could start by getting into basic rocket theory.
<a href="http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/th_intro.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/th_intro.html</a>
And when you are propperly skilled, has aquired all the materials and done extensive testing you could create an unguided
inpact detonated SC rocket accurate up to maybe 100+ meters. And thease Israelian tanks obviously has weak bottoms, so
why not use the time to construct a remote controlled or magnetically initated(so you don't blow up other vehicles passing/
doesn't have to rely on a track passing a pressure initiator, only problem is to properly calibrate it) shaped charge mine and
ambush the tank. Since I assume we are speaking of things like urban and rural guerilla warfare, where one party has major
advantage.
I don't belive in the handgrenade idea, although it might have the capacity you will not able to get close enough. Hitting a
moving target with an improvised rocket will not be easy either, it's hard enough when using military unguided rockets.
Another idea is to demolish a bridge as the tank, tanks(!) passes it, that is if they belive the area is clear and they don't
check the bridge.
Since the tanks are heavy it might be sufficent to strike a few columns(or maybe a single bearing detail, depending on
construction).
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Bridge01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/
Bridge01.jpg</a>
[ September 18, 2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Does anyone know how tanks are refueled? Because the fuel reservoir inlet has to be a considerable weak point.
A fast rocket with enough mass could fuck up the tracks without having any explosive onboard. Think of the SABOT round.
BoB- September 20th, 2002, 05:21 PM

No matter how thick the armor, no matter how good its defense weapons are, a tank can still fall into a 15'- 20' hole in the
ground. Since we are talking about urban enviroments, a backhoe should be available to steal. A crew of men, armed with
backhoes should be able to dig, and move enough dirt to form several tank traps in a days time.
These giant holes could be used to keep tanks out of certain areas, or the hole can be covered in 2"x4"'s and plywood, then
disguised with dirt, gravel, or leaves. The hole could even be covered in cement and/or asphalt, so troops, and LAVs can pass
over it.
This is also where napalm, and thermite can now be highly effective. The men would ether leave the tank, or be cooked alive.
Zyklon_B September 21st, 2002, 03:25 PM

The hole idea seems interesting if you can force a tank to have no choice but to go over it. And if the tank crew is forced to
abandon their tank, that means a free tank for you, well if they leave it intact and don't call in air support.
PYRO500 September 21st, 2002, 03:44 PM
And how during a time of war do you think your going to pull a tank out of a 20' hole in the ground?
Zyklon_B September 21st, 2002, 03:48 PM

Dig a ramp. If you where able to dig the ho le I think dig ging a ramp shouldn t be impossib le.
EP September 22nd, 2002, 02:54 AM

Here is an interesting method of creating anti-tank ditches. Won't work in an urban enviroment however.
<a href="http://www.dres.dnd.ca/ResearchTech/Products/MilEng_Products/RD95008/index_e.html" target="_blank">http://

www.dres.dnd.ca/ResearchTech/Products/MilEng_Products/RD95008/index_e.html</a>
xoo1246 September 22nd, 2002, 03:25 AM

Check FM 5-250 for more info on tank ditches.
irish September 22nd, 2002, 07:16 AM

EP, that is one very impressive ditch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .
it`s a small diameter pipe to make a 8 meter wide trench I see it says that they fill it with nitroparaffin or (mostly)
nitromethane .
have any of you had any experiance with nitroparaffin. I didnt see it on mega`s site but I did find this
Irish
sorry kingspaz I dont know why it did that.

----------------------------
link had been removed for screwing with the page layout. to go to what hes talking about try patent number 4925505 -
kingspaz
[ September 22, 2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: irish ]
Sparky September 22nd, 2002, 12:54 PM

I think it would be much more effective to disguise the anti tank ditch. Or even better, if you can build an underground cave
(lots of cities already have huge holes under the sidewalk) then when the tank is crossing, collapse the roof of the cave, and
bring the tank down. The turn on the radio jammers and send over some napalm to the tank.
MrSamosa September 22nd, 2002, 10:10 PM

Sorry if I'm suggesting some bizarre impractical idea, but theoretically, railguns could be used to take out tanks.
If you were to build a high quality railgun, comparable to that of the Department of Defense's (yeh, right... but does anyone
know how much theirs cost though?). The DoD used high-quality, new materials; but the amature or guerilla almost certainly
would not. Therefore, the costs would be greatly reduced. If you have a decent projectile material, surely you could be able to
penetrate some thick armor. If not, a projectile moving 4-6 km/sec would still cause considerable damage to a tank.
One big advantage I see is that railguns will allow multiple firings at incoming armor, opposed to one time use explosive
charges. The main disadvantage though is that you would need to replace the rails after every few firings, since they tend to
warp from the massive magnetic fields. Still, ultimately it should be cheaper and less time consuming than synthesizing
insane quantities of high explosives; considering the fact that railguns are hardly one time use weapons.
If one could find a source of the necessary materials, or perhaps improvised them (improvised capacitors, metal workshops to
provide the copper rails, etc.), then the guerilla force could set up multiple railgun-turret-weapon-friends to defend a location
or town from armor.
Yes, I know railguns and their physics are far more complex than I make them seem, but it's just an idea. :)
[ September 22, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
Zyklon_B September 23rd, 2002, 01:04 AM

Rail guns need energy, that s the first major problem I see. Genera ting enough power right at the time you need it is no
easy task, especially in a warfare situation. Secondly, you have to set it up on some sort of turret, figure out a sighting
system, and take long shots, further then the range of the tank, cause if you don't, well the tank will spot you and blow you
up. Also building a large enough rail gun, getting it to a source of energy strong enough and reliable enough for you to use,
all ads up to one big easy to hit target from the air. It isn't a weapon that lends well to practical field carry or even as a booby
trap.
Until the technology is better developed it is still not as viable a manner of destroying/disabling a tank, especially not under
adverse conditions.
We still have yet to see the military with billion dollar contracts and nuclear power sources to come out with a viable gun.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 23rd, 2002, 02:25 PM

A REALISTIC approach must be made to this subject, as one day you may be the only person that can be called apon to help
stop the troops of the NWO (new world order), in order to do this we must analyze the threat. it divides into 4 areas for
vehicles
1. LIGHT vehicles (i.e land-rover/hummvee) these are more for transporting troops and acting as weapons carriers (i.e swing-
fire for land-rover and tow/stingers/.50cal for hummvee) and are cheap for what the governments usually pay for troop
carriers. these offer varing protection from virtually none to up to 7.62/.50 cal fmj for a bolt on system on a hummer. I would
advise the simple viet-cong tactic of flushing/drawing the vehicle (or along known travel route) into driving through a trip-wire
with hand-grenades strung on the end, the lever being held within a cardboard/steel tube. if the wire is suspended at about
radiator height then the grenades will be pulled in towards the side of the vehicle and should take-out the tires and occupants,
leaving a (possibly burning) hulk. Caltrops spread across the road would allow for the capture of the occupants if so inclined.
(note that i said inclined, as i would advise no survivors/pow's unless absolutly needed) a quick kill with high-cal weapons into
the windscreen (i.e. a good shot with a G3 or AR10) to disable the driver, and if possible the front-seat passenger, and
another shooter ready to deal with any pintel-mounted weapon crews.
(i.e 50.cal/mk49 gren)this offers the resistance the ability to use the weapons of the enemy against themselves (fulfilling one
of the points from 'the art of war') so much for light vehicles.
2. MEDIUM vehicles. these are lightly armoured transporters that can tote a serious amount of fire-power (90 mm low-pressure
cannon or 30mm cannon) the armour is little better then the light vehicles with protection only up to about 20mm (even this
being rare), examples of this would be the american LAV,french PANHARD,german FUCHS and the english FV432.
they come in either flavour, tracked and tires. the tire versions i would advise the same approach to light vehicles, maybe with
a larger charge (i.e. small beer-keg of anfo/annm and a home-brew cannon)
the tracked version however requires a different approach (duh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
Concrete blocks about 4/5 feet high with steel RSJ'S (rolled steel joists/steel building beams) sticking through, these should
be light enough to have 3 or four able to be towed by a truck, this will allow for a lightning-strike against enemy convoys
(allowing for opportunities to be exploited) as a lone vehicle that is spotted could trapped if a concerted effort is made with
multiple trucks/tank traps)
after the vehicle is grounded, grenades should be used. NOT for destructive purposes but more to stun the crew (quite easy in
a big steel box)then either a call can be made to surrender or the cannons can be used (heavy stainless-steel shot from
home-brew cannons or from a .50cal rifle at CLOSE range,
like 50 yards using APIT rounds)these are good vehicles to have burning, as the large amount of ammuntion cooks-off easily
from the fires usually created from apit rounds. the tank-tracks are flimsy but still need a lot to dislodge (even in ww2 it took a
few pounds of plastic to disable) these weigh about 20/30 tons. On another note these vehicles are the lightest to use NBC
systems (as they are totally enclosed) so chemical weapons wont work.
3.HEAVY this is the range that is reserved only to the elite countries. always with tracks and is armed with rapid fire cannons
(about 30/40mm) these will chew through walls rapidly, and the on-board ATGW's will demolish any building/bunker. these
also have the VERY dangerous ability to allow the occupants to fire from inside the vehicle, having 8+ m16's firing is enought
to put anyone off. the armour is still far from being that of a true tank, but with reactive armour allows for a greatly enhanced
threat (also the reactive amour will shed anyone nearby if caught out in the open when the panels go off). due to these points
i would advise the tank-traps in conjunction with a barrel or two of anfo prepared, this could be dropped or if possible it needs
to be placed underneath the tanks "belly" as this is the second weakest point on any vehicle (first being the roof/top) it's only
due to the direction of a larger proportion of the blast towards the tanks belly that allows an easy kill. The only option i can
see is to immobilise and to destroy. Best point to aim for would be fuel tanks or ammunition cases/ATGW rockets (usually
armoured so a minimum of a .50 should be employed against this area) the burning fuel will rapidly heat the internal crew
compartment to a uncomfortable level, due to the thin nature of the armour used this will only work on light-weight vehicles as
true tanks have SO much bulk in the armour department that it would take a _VERY_ long time to get the same effect.
4. SUPER this vehicle type is more common then the HEAVY, as its easy to weld together/cast a big lump of metal into a hull
and mount a 105/120mm cannon on the sucker. Personally i would rate this a low threat as they are made purly to destroy
other tanks, and as such are poorly made to take on a prepared populace. the only real danger is if they are used as ersatz
artillery (against buildings) and as such can destoy fortified buildings in 2 or three hits (see film from ww2 to see effects),
these will not be travelling alone and will avoid travelling in narrow streets.
the sheer weight (upto 70 tons for the M1A3 ABRAMS) often destroys weak bridges and makes many roads nearly unusable.
the best bet would be to locate likely bridges that these tanks would use and to rig these up for demolition (i have uploaded
the military manual onto the ftp for the demolition of bridges if it wasn't there before)
these tanks drink fuel like no-tomorrow and often utilise tank transporters, these are when tanks are particularly vulnerable as
rarly do crew travel in the tank (to my knowledge) while being transported. My advise is more to immobilise and use these as
bait for the barrels of anfo that you have cunningly hidden all around the avenues of aproach to the tank, then let the troops
draw in and BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM!!!!!! you have death-valley, the enemy is extremely unlikely to napalm/bomb the tank or the
rescue crew (i advise that the tank "falling" into the ground be made to look like an accident with no assult on the tank, this
creates a false sense of security and makes the call for evac easier and may draw out more enemy troops to hit :D the only
real way to diable these things is to aim for the optics (e.g night vision/thermal) to reduce effectivness at locating you, the
turret-ring (THE MOST vulnerable point on any tank, but thats in comparison to about 400/600mm of steel :p )
so if you happened to have a immobilised tank and a while to spare you could pack a large amount of hi-explosives into the
turret ring, it may do something :D if it was an abrams tank then you could place explosives around the blast-off panel on the
turret and blow this off, detonating the stash of 120mm rounds. wont do much damage to crew as this is what it is designed to
do, but it means that there will be no ammo for the crew to expend on your suicidal asses.
p.s. please dont think of me as KeWl because i suggest the idea of using a "home-brew" cannon, as a well made steel cannon
using NC as a propellent, and with some stainless steel shot you may be able to deal considerable damage,
(i guess about 3cm penetration? correct me if wrong) even an improvised HESH (hi explosive squash-head) round would
provide LETHAL spalling (metal chunk flying around at high speeds in a confined space <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> )
[ September 23, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: vir sapit qui pauca loquitur ]
vulture September 23rd, 2002, 03:39 PM

If one is thinking about railguns, why shouldn't we consider induction cooking? :D
Since the tank has alot of steel, a powerful magnetic field could cause the body to heat up fast and hot. Electrical systems will
suffer and the tank will be too hot for the crew to be functioning normally. (I've been sitting in an APC once, in regular
situations you almost get cooked by the heat and the diesel fumes).
Also, were always talking about penetrating armor by firing high velocity rounds. This way lots of energy will be lost by friction
and reactive armor etc. If one would use a projectile which is halted to complete zero when it hit's the tank, it might have more
effect. A 20kg round at mach 5 coming to a complete halt in a millesecond liberates an insane amount of energy all at once.
The tank will be unharmed the first few seconds after impact, but then the energy can't find a way out anymore resulting in
massive damage.
I remember a simulation video of this effect. The tank just vibrated a few secs and then got smashed away like it had been
hit by a 90mph train. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
john_smith September 23rd, 2002, 04:12 PM
I still like guided weapons... Maybe a wire-guided missile (like on old french attack choppers, or the original '45 nazi AAM)?
Anthony September 23rd, 2002, 05:50 PM

Induction heating? Let's see...
Specific heat capacity of steel = 450J per kg per *K
So let's say we want to heat the tank up to 100*C (373*K)
(373 x 70 000kg)x450 = 11749500000J = 11750 mega-joules.
Presuming the tank isn't trapped (if it was there are easier ways to diable it!), so let's say we want to heat up within a minute.
11750/60 = 195.83 megawatts of power required. Assumbing that the efficiency of your source is 100% and 100% of the
power it outputs is imparted to the tank. Which of course it won't be in reality. Plus of course, the tank would be dissapating
energy into the atmosphere, meaning you'd have to pump in even more energy.
I really don't think a railgun would be any more practical...
I was looking at a webpage of a light gas gun t'other day, using a powder charge as propellant, it acheives a muzzle velocity
of 8km/sec. Railguns can do better, but not *that* much better!
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 23rd, 2002, 06:47 PM

i dont think that its possible to have anything that offers complete inelastic collision (or elastic... its been a while since i did A
level physics :p ) wire guided is an idea, but first a high-power HEAT round/warhead for the missle, and then sort out the
detonation system (piezo electric maybe?) and if the tank has reactive armour then a probe with a small charge is needed,
and to wire guide it...
man that would be one HELL of a project, with a flare in the rear of the missle, servo's for the rudders and a joystick to work it
all, and wires long enough....... now i say it it sounds almost possible :D
still i would need a few bits and pieces that are beyond my knowlede to do a wire-guided missile, best bet would be a heavy
unguided missile, on a stand alone bipod/tripod.

Wire guided missile? Please, save your money and make a multy launcher with several rockets so you could shoot a cloud of
them at the target. Alot of rockets in a confined group would mean the reactive armor could get some, but not all.

Why not use the tanks own reactive armor against it?
Small shaped charges are attached to the tanks ERA, limpet mine style, which can be set off at a later time by R/C.
Later times being when enemy troops are near the tank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> or when the
tankers have opened up their hatches in what (they think) is a safe location.
Once the ERAs exploded a few times during inopprotune moments, the enemies infantry will tend to stay away from the tanks
for fear of getting killed by the exploding ERA, thus leaving the tanks vulnerable to close up attack.
Also, anyone trying to remove the SC would be risking death, thus making it an unpopular task. :D Getting in or out of a tank
could be a very risky proposition. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
john_smith September 24th, 2002, 10:27 AM

Well, a wire guided missile with an onboard camera could be aimed at some weaker spot of the tank... nah... actually, how
much does it take to make the reactive armor go off? These things are directional charges with a detonator and an ignition
system, not just packs of high-ex, right? I once heard something about setting off reactive armor with .50 sniper rifles, and
then using the RPG-s. It was in Yugoslavia, if I remember correctly. Now, a rocket-propelled grapeshot charge (aka claymore)
detonated at a predetermined distance from tank (onboard laser range finder? Shit, $$$ again, maybe parts from old
autofocus cameras would do...), followed by SC rocket(s)... hmmm... On the other hand I don't think the reactive armor is the
biggest problem at all. It's either having enough power to do considerable damage regardless on what part of tank the round
hits, or having the accuracy to go for the weak spots. Hence the whole guided weapons stuff.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 24th, 2002, 12:17 PM

the reactive armour is actually the simplest idea imaginable, its a lump of insensitive plastic exposives with a 4/5 mm sheet of
steel over that. 50 cal will set it off, and so will 7.62mm but im not so sure about 5.56... it might but i wouln't want to do the
test. I do know that whenever (and this is a RULE) a tank/apc has ERA, infantry tactics are severly altered to avoid even the
slightest risk of fraticide from the armour. As the shrapnel is quite nasty, and what you dont want is your precious men being
cut down by your own weapons !
At close range a good shot could pick out the turret ring with an RPG. This area, (as i said) is the weakest on a tank,
unfortunatly the easy countermeasure to this method is to have chains hanging over the turret and dangling down, this
prematurly detonates the RPG and dissapates the jet from the HEAT round.

Anthony, something's wrong with your calculation. You only need the temperature difference, as the tank hasn't got a
temperature of 0K.
So when it's 20C outside and you want to heat it to 100C you multiply it by 80; (80*70000)*450 = 2,52x10^9 J
Also, the tank isn't made of 100% steel, but also of carbon/glassfiber and tungsten alloys with other metals. This would lower
the to be cooked mass and the heat capacity. Besides, with induction cooking, you can focus the energy on a certain point.

If I remember correctly, the fuel is kept in the back on the right hand side. A rather large landmine should be able to take out
the tank if the explosive is detonated at the right time, and if it doesnt blow the fuel tank, it will likely damage the tracks
enough that they would be useless.

Good point on the temperature, I had overlooked that.
I did consider that the tank is not 100% steel, but simplified. I wouldn't assume that the other materials would lower the
overall specific heat capacity, the fuel would raise it, as would anything with aluminium in it.
I suppose we really should take into account the rate at which heat spreads to other parts of the tank away from the aim
point. As like you said, the entire tank wouldn't need to heat up to 100*C to raise the crew compartment to this temperature.
But it's all academic really. Even if I was off by a factor of 10 it'd stil be very unfeasible.
EP September 24th, 2002, 08:30 PM

Another idea worth at least thinking about is aquiring real, weapons-contractor produced AT rockets.
I was looking around at 37mm launcher suppliers and came across a place that sells to law enforcement and carries AT
weapons:
<a href="http://www.att-tactical.com/DD.html" target="_blank">http://www.att-tactical.com/DD.html</a>
Suppose you were to "borrow" a few? It would probably be difficult to get them, but once in your possesion, would be far more
effective than just about any homemade device.
Military bases would be another potential source. I've heard of F-16 jet engines being stolen ( <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) so I would assume a few launchers like an <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/
m3-maws.htm" target="_blank">M3</a> or a <a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m72.htm"
target="_blank">LAW</a> would be possible.
Then there is always the international arms black market that we all dream about, yet would probably have no clue how to
connect with. At least it's more possible than building a rail gun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Hmm...I don't think you all are very creative with my railgun idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
While you may be right on some aspects, simple design changes could dramatically cut costs.
I don't remember what the design is called, I think a "Compound Railgun," but it essentially has two railguns to fire a single
shot. That is to say, instead of having two rails at 180 degree angles from each other, they have 4 rails at 90 degree angles.
Instead of having 1 power source and 1 capacitor bank for a single railgun, the design would have half the original power
source and half the original capacitor bank per rail. Therefore, it is the same amount of electricity flowing at the same speed,
but recharge rate is effectively cut in half.
A dense armature could also contribute to the gun's ability to penetrate thick armor. Lead would be ideal.
I brought the question of railgun recharge times to "Mouser" of <a href="http://www.railgun.org"

target="_blank">www.railgun.org</a> , he gave me the simple answer that the recharge rate was "negligible." Also, the gun
does not necessarily have to charge up and fire WHEN you pull the trigger; as was implied in an earlier post. The operator
could charge the weapon when he sights the target, and then fire when ready.
I don't imagine the total costs to be more than an expensive computer; maybe $3,000-$5,000 dollars for a gun using new
capacitors (according to Sam Barros' estimate of each cap being $50/piece). The real expenses come from all the
experimenting in high-quality labs. Albeit, railguns would still be expensive.
Nevertheless, if you can fire 8 km/sec with a gas rifle, the hell with railguns! If you could give us that link, I'm sure we'd all be
very much interested. Hmm, a high explosive charge crashing into a tank at 8/km a sec...think about it. If I know explosives
properly (actually, I have very little knowledge of explosives; not really my thing), the impact would be sufficient to set off the
high explosive without a blasting cap, no?
PYRO500 September 24th, 2002, 10:01 PM

It's not worth fooling with multiple rails in a rail gun mainly beacuse it is so hard to get even decent efficency with just 2 rails.
with 4 rails your going to have more problems and with a decent HV capacitor bank it would discharge faster through 1 set of
rails alone. As for as rail gun as an anti tank weapon, I read somewhere a scientist said what a decent rail gun would do to a
tank would be like comparing a 44 magnum being shot into a soda can.
Mick September 24th, 2002, 11:29 PM

the rail gun idea isn't worth entertaining, because it relies on one thing, electricity.
which is more then likly the 1 thing your not going have in a war.
i think everyone seems to be thinking "complex", some of the ideas like wire guided rockets and laser sighted RPSC's are just
to complex and rely on to many things that your not going to find in a war.
the best idea i have seen so far is a dirty great big hole.
once you start having vast and elaborate schemes to take down a tank, your fucked. because it only take one little thing to
screw up and your whole plan goes out the window.

For the most part he's right, a M1A1 Abrams tank is equiped with a 6Kw generator and that translates directly to joules (watts
per second) in 6,000 J per second. now lets say they have a relitively small rail gun. say 1 mega joule. 1,000,000/
6000=~167S=~ 2.8Min. charging time. For a real large gun assume the cap bank is 30 or so mega joules, not only is this
gonna be huge but it's gonna take a while to charge.
[ September 24, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
Bander September 25th, 2002, 01:35 AM

I'm not sure if I came up with this or have simply forgoten where I heard the idea, but if one only wishes to disable a tank and
remove it's destructive power a simple bolo-grenade setup might work. Just fire the improvised bolo with explosives on the
ends at the barrel of the tank. It then wraps around and if you're lucky, dents in the barrel. Of course there's still the machine
gun likely to be mounted on top, but they have to come out to use that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /
>
john_smith September 25th, 2002, 06:18 AM

@Chemwarrior
Diesel won't blow up in tank. In fact an armored vehicle -escapes me which exactly- has fuel tanks arranged in front of the
crew compartment to dissipate the SC jet. And they all have multiple tanks.
@Bander
They don't have to come out, it was somewhere earlier in this thread.
As for the complex stuff, the "mortar shell" I wrote about would be much like a model aircraft. You'd need a 4-channel RC and
servos, a wireless surveillance camera (<$100) and an RF amp for the latter. The shell itself shouldn't be too hard to build.
Much easier than a wire guided missaile anyway.
[ September 25, 2002, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]
chemwarrior September 25th, 2002, 07:16 AM

You dont want it to blow the tank up, you merely want to stop the tank in its tracks. Thats how blowing the fuel tank comes
into play.

I thought tanks have reserve fuel?

Here it is:
<a href="http://hitf.jsc.nasa.gov/hitfpub/testing/lightgasguns.html" target="_blank">http://hitf.jsc.nasa.gov/hitfpub/testing/

lightgasguns.html</a>
Not exactly portable, but then neither is a railgun. I made a bit of a mistake, MV is up to 7km/sec, not 8km/sec.
Sure you could build a railgun like Sam Barros', but I doubt his will produce more muzzle energy than a handgun round. So in
an adaption to pyro500's analogy, it would be like firing a .44 magnum at a tank!

They do have reserve fuel, but its located less than 4 inches from the other tank, and it isnt very well protected.

i just think its important to note that statements like the above are not going to hold true for all tanks, only the ones he has
experience with or has studied. i think we need to focus on areas which all tanks have in common such as the barrel, turret
ring, tracks, etc.

If one was prepared to go to extreme lengths, then a few pounds of thermite on the wheels/tracks would immobilise the tank
quite well.
I cant particularly think of common faults on tanks, because the designs vary so wildly, as the com-bloc tanks always have
auto loaders and ammuniton stored in the hull, this is the main weakness of the T55/62/62/72/80 and all the copies by china,
but with western tanks it's a whole new kettle of fish. With the varied design philosophy's of the different nations, the french
tank being the most inefficient as the french WOULD have to try and make a "third generation" tank :rolleyes: the abrams
and possibly the challenger mk 2 are two contenders for the ultimate tank.
the only hope that you could have is to dig holes/ditches and to harrass the sappers that are sent to bridge these ditches. You
could always do what south korea/america has done and deploy the nuclear mine :D apart from this extreme measure only a
few barrels of anfo/annm would do the trick, it's what has worked in the past and it would work in the future for anyone that
would be willing to try it.
The problem with immobilising a tank is that you now have a machine-gun emplacement with infra-red to spot your stupid
asses and able to blow away that pathetic hill in-between you and them (what occured in the golf war with abrams shooting
through sand dunes to destroy iraqi T-72's)

Helvetica"> A 20kg round at mach 5 coming to a complete halt in a millesecond liberates an insane amount of energy all at
once.<hr /></blockquote>- vulture
Continuing this idea, why not use a projectile that instead of penetrating shatters on impact? A possible material could be
copper, which is quite easily obtained and molded. Ideally, it will NOT penetrate the armor, and therefore be stopped in a
matter of milliseconds which would better utilize its energy; of course, with some of the energy wasted on flying fragments
from the shell shattering.
Ideally, you would like to be able to flip the target vehicle onto its side. This is, of course, referring to an armored target that
is NOT a 75 ton tank; but rather an armored VIP car or something. However, the trouble arises when you try to fire such a
huge shell as would be necessary to cause the said effects. Therefore, a "functional kill", but not necessarily a "total kill."

The "golf war"? Ah yes, the infamous battle of the 18th hole! :D
Only kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
For an improvised pure KE weapon, I presume we would be using something like a HE propelled, single use weapon? I'd
imagine that a reloadable cannon capable of such performance would be hard to build and probably quite large.

Another Idea I have is getting a old GMC van, placing a few barrels of ANFO and a large metal plate on each side. When a
tank passes by it parked by the side of the street it could be remotely set off by a person dressed in plain clothes watching
some distance away with a spotting scope. Its would be MUCH easier then any improvised missile, but would only be
successfull maybe once or twice since the technique would quickly get out.
Anyone know if there are any rules or regulations that the Army will follow before driving a tank down a certain street or thru
any urban environment? This plan would be ruined by infantry moving ahead of the tank to make sure that there are no
enemy traps or soldiers ahead. However in a occupied area where tanks just slowly drive around on patrol, this would be quite
the anti-tank weapon in my view. Using fairly large shaped charges in vehicles may be the way to go.
There is also making remote controlled cars using actual full sized cars. These could be driven down a street with a dummy in
the front seat just to make sure it could get close eneugh for a real kill.
[ September 26, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Zyklon_B ]
hodehum September 26th, 2002, 08:59 AM

Despite extensive searching I have been unable to find any information on an interesting anti-tank mine I read about a while
ago. The concept was simple in design, but looked like it had a lot of potential. Basically it consisted of about 4 or 5 tubes
containing an explosive (I would assume T.N.T or Tetryl) that where about 3 meters long, each arranged in parallel, atop of
which was the detonating pressure plate that was about 2.5 meters long and extended just before the edge of the tubes.
Such a mine would easy to improvise and would have some advantages in an urban built up environment. The mine would be
placed perpendicular to the sidewalk and hidden well with debris or other coverings and when the mine is detonated it would
stand a good chance of cutting both tracks.

this link may be of interest,
<a href="http://angola.npaid.org/minelist_complete_angola.htm" target="_blank">http://angola.npaid.org/
minelist_complete_angola.htm</a>
it details nearly all known anti tank and anti personnel

mines and offers the explosive composition and weight and
the detonation method! All in all its a good website to see
how easy it is to create an anti-tank mine (wood mines).
as being honest here, if it came down to martial law then
i think the local chemical supply store would be ransaked to keep me in supply to fight my own war <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> the 50/50 mix of TNT and RDX is within the reach of even me for a few mines, but i'm sure that
i'd end up making 100% RDX and maybe a bit of filler from captured munitions (which i would advise anyone to do). On this
website it also tells us that the earliest AT mines were simply tank shells (HESH) with a pressure fuse.
Can I add here that tanks ONLY work in conjunction with infantry cover, as that is the way that it has been since the molotov
was invented, as the infantry gain heavy weapons capability and the tank gains the protection of many eye's when buttoned
up (to ensure against snipers) this has been re-inforced time and time again, as the locals in every city dont take kindly to
tanks rumbling through and often grab a few RPG'S and start popping them off at anything that moves. this is a bit
disconcerting to even an ABRAMS driver/crew as the tank "rings" after a direct hit, and who knows how unlucky they maybe, a
lucky shot or two would leave a tank stranded (and that is what tankers DONT want.

The problem with the KE weapon is that the material should not shatter, melt or even vaporize on impact because much
energy get's lost that way. Thus a high density and strong metal with high melting point is required. I'm not going to pay for
20kg of osmium you know... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

from what i remember of osmium, wouldn't 20 kg only be the size of a large cigar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> (i think its about 45kg for a brick-sized lump)
On the subject of K.E. weapons, why not load up an armoured juggernaught (articulated lorry) with a few concrete/steel blocks
and get up to speed (about 80mph) and aim it at the tank, and have some form of ejection system to evacuate yourself
(bail out JUST before hitting)i'm not too sure about this, but if a sharpened steel beam was welded into the frame of a heavy (
total weight about 60 tonne)lorry, travelling at about 100kph we would have about 24 MJ of energy crashing into the tank?
i think that we would have a kill even if we didn't destroy the tank, we would have made it functionally inoperable due to
damage to the weapons systems. it would be pretty cool to see this :D :D

Don't know if it's of any use or not but:
<a href="http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/chemicals/osmium.html" target="_blank">http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/

chemicals/osmium.html</a>

Helvetica"> (Gr. osme, a smell) Discovered in 1803 by Tennant in the residue left when crude platinum is dissolved by aqua
regia. Osmium occurs in iridosule and in platinum-bearing river sands of the Urals, North America, and South America. It is
also found in the nickel-bearing ores of Sudbury, Ontario region along with other platinum metals. While the quantity of
platinum metals in these ores is very small, the large tonnages of nickel ores processed make commercial recovery possible.
The metal is lustrous, bluish white, extremely hard, and brittle even at high temperatures. It has the highest melting point
and the lowest vapor pressure of the platinum group. The metal is very difficult to fabricate, but the powdered or spongy metal
slowly gives off osmium tetroxide, which as a powerful oxidizing agent and has a strong smell. The tetroxide is highly toxic,
and boils at 130C. Concentrations in air as low as 10^7 g/m^3 can cause lung congestion, skin damage, or eye damage.
Exposure to osmium tetroxide should not exceed 0.0016 mg/m^3 (8-hour time weighted average - 40-hour work week). the
tetroxide has been used to detect fingerprints and to stain fatty tissue for microscope slides. the metal is almost entirely used
to produce very hard alloys, with other metals of the platinum group, for fountain pen tips, instrument pivots, phonograph
needles, and electrical contacts. The price of 99% pure osmium powder - the form usually supplied commercially - is about
$100/g, depending on quantity and supplier. The measured densities of iridium and osmium seem to indicate that osmium is
slightly more dense than iridium, so osmium has generally been credited with being the heaviest known element. Calculations
of the density from the space lattice which may be more reliable for these elements than actual measurements, however, give
a density of 22.65 for iridium compared to 22.661 for osmium. At present, therefore, we know either iridium or osmium is the
heaviest element, but the data do not allow selection between the two.
<hr /></blockquote>damm, $100/g !!!!! <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
hehehe, 20kg would be 2 MILLION dollars !!
but the tetroxide sounds interesting, i doubt that anyone would test for the poisoning, not with a price from that website of
about $30 a gram,

A lorry would make a very interesting KE weapon. I wouldn't imagine that the armour would be breached, but the shock would
almost certainly kill the crew.
If shock damage hadn't taken too much of a toll on the tank's various components and devices, it may even be usaable after
capture.

At that density, 20kg of Os would take slightly less than a liter, which could be shaped into an artillery shell like design with a
hollow point of another weaker metal to ensure aerodynamics.
The total kinetical energy of 20kg of osmium at mach 5 (340m/s*5)

would be equal to (20*(1700)^2)/2 = 57800 kJ
Now let's assume the projectile comes to a complete halt in 0,01s and 20% of the energy is lost by shattering, friction and
heat output:
(57800000*80%)/0,01* = 4,624*10^9 W = 4624 MW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Wow, try to pump that into a rail gun!

I think the word wreck for the remains of the tank wouldn't be appropriate here, I would rather use the word "plasmatized"
armor... :D
(if I didn't make any calculation mistakes... :confused: )
Gr3yscale September 27th, 2002, 06:35 AM

Hi everybody, I can finally post :D
been reading the forum for like 3 months.
I heard about a guided mortar that was used to destroy tanks, actually I think it was a rocket, it was remotely controlled on
descent.
it was just a big pointly lump of steel with a camera, control system and a boost stage that discarded just before apex was
reached.
I think this would be fairly simple to improvise, once you have the transmitters and reciever..
hehe, you could use military (or whatever) band radio to transmit the control signal, as inaudible sound and thereby use their
own systems against them, and they wont jam you.....
oh, also, I have to say; why would you try to fight a tank anyway?
put on your sheeps chlothing and hopefully itll leave you alone
why not take out the fuel tanker?
or any type of resupply
or demoralise the crew
OR just not be there when it comes around
oh yeah, wouldnt all that ANFO be better used collapsing a building on top of it? if its an urban setting.
Im just guessing but I think that would be more a efficient use.
I personally will try to avoid confrontations with tanks alltogether

they are lots bigger than me.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 27th, 2002, 10:06 AM

the military does not use one channel as this would be easy for another army to jam, they use a system known as signal
hopping, where the frequency used is changed mulitple times a second (up to 100 times a second for secure lines) so if you
can find a way of using the same frequencies (at the same time) then i do belive that you would have the technology to listen
in on the transmittions (descrambling)
the reason that we are trying to figure out a way of destroying a tank would be so that if we were ever in the position of martial
law
(military becoming the De Facto ruler) and we believed that this was either unfair or was for the reason of rounding certain
peoples from the general populace (a'la Gulag time) then we would be able to immobilise/destroy what is the most powerful
symbol of modern military might, this in turn _could_ discourage the military from invading further into a city and might save
our lives or the lives of our loved ones one day. we prepare therfore we are prepared.
blowing up buildings reduces the places that we might be able to operate in, and i dont think that in a residential zone (with
little if any tall buildings) we would be able to use that method. BUT in a commercial/industrial zone that is a valid method.
Also we don't like the idea of waiting for anyone to remove that foot off of our throat, we would rather blow the foot :D (idea of
waiting for them to leave) and destroying/immobilising the tanks demoralises the crew, and strains the supply lines as more
fuel has to be used to transport that new powerpack/tank track/thermal sight.
and i'm glad to see that my idea might be a good one, but i am concerned as to how we are to get this 20 kg lump up such
speeds to hit if the target is moving, as the firing mechanism looks long-winded and complicated. If you could make it
recoilless and shoulder portable then you my man are amazing as that would be beyond a doubt an amazing weapon. the us
army were experimenting with scramjet hyper-velocity missiles that would do the same thing, the only problem they could see
is in the missle/shot passing straight through the target!
and it would be a waste if you were shooting say an apc, thats 2million dollars a shot gone on a half-million machine :D
one idea that i do propose for another thread is: "how would you make a tank" :D as we could take our knowledge from this
thread and construct an easy to make vehicle that would protect us and offer a means of attack. a NC powered potato gun
firing tungsten rounds would do some mean damage ! We could combine the idea for a remote sniper system and have a
turret/remotly controlled gun platform :D
Gr3yscale September 27th, 2002, 11:11 AM

how do they coordinate the hopping?
embedded signal?
can you give me more info on this system?
do they transmit and recieve all their channels even though they only use one to communicate at any given time?
cause no hopping would be needed to control the shell.
sure, I just meant that easier targets might be plentiful.

if you deprive the tank of an enemy to fight, what can it do?
"shoot the flesh, save the steel" -that dude of MW2 Mercenaries
hehe :)
the weapon I described would be fairly simple, I will give a more detailed description;
3 parts, the launcher, the shell and the controls.
the launcher is just a homemade mortar, simple.
the shell is a chunk of something dense, like whatevers on hand with the tip made of something really hard, stainless steel is
readily availiable.
it has a B/W camera and a transmitter + powersource
its guided in descent by fins actuated by standard model aircraft servos and a reciever.
the control signal could be sent on the same band as the video and a single tranceiver used?
thats the head of the shell.
there are also one or two boost stages, which are just pyrotechnic rocket motors that discard after burning.
they can be bought, you need a liscence for the big ones though.
the control system is just a tv screen, transmitter, reciever and control panel, doesnt even have to be portable if you were
using the enemy radio, they wouldnt find your control station.
the launchers and shell could be placed anywhere, the best place would be where the smoke and flame of the motor wont be
too easily seen.(surprise attack)
like on top of a tall building.
oh theyd also be remotely launched. but they would have to be activated shortly before cause of small battery in the shell.
ok, so its fairly complex but for me this would be easier to make than it would be to aquire any HE by the barrel.
most of the parts are readily availiable, minus the rocket motors, and the penetrating tip might have to be machined
somehow.
yeah..

If you use HE propulsion, IIRC you will get upto a quarter of the explosive's VoD in projectile speed. Unfortunately, that's only
going to be about 2km/sec using even the best explosives :(
An existing solution might be on of the so called "super guns". I believe the Iraqi's were playing with some recently. Fair
simple and crude in construction would pack enough ME to throw a 100kg shell halfway accros a country. Definitely not
portable, nor recoiless though :)
How do existing field guns fare against modern tank armour? Maybe something like a 155mm howitzer? They don't seem to
be too uncommon.
BTW, I wouldn't build a tank, I'd buy one and reactivate the gun. Then find some fools - I mean, "crew" and go have some
fun :)
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 27th, 2002, 11:50 AM

HAHAHAH ! thats the right idea, i'd want a few of the english FOX armoured cars, the 40 mm cannon is sweeeeeet! it would do
a dam lot of damage if APFDS ammunition was used (armour piercing fin stabilised discarding sabot) and its fully automatic
(but low rate of fire) heheh, i want one of those :D .
modern howitzers (about 155mm) with some anti-tank ammunition would be devistating, but to my knowledge NO-ONE builds
anti tank ammunition (like APFSDS) as they are far too wimpy and expensive to have on the field of battle. they also have a
slow rate of fire/and are slow but these would be moot points when that enemy tank gets hit with about 30kg of hi ex !!! i do
know that no tank can take a direct hit from a howitzer and survive. The super gun is along the lines of the german air-gun
(phnematic (sp)) that, as the shell was moving along the barrel had further charges detonated behind it (very exact timings
here as premature detonation would result in LOWER velocities)
the long barrel and multiple charges could have allowed saddam (CIA codename: sand-man :D ) to put satillites into low orbit
! (or reach england with hi-ex) you guess which one he'd do first :rolleyes:
the idea of using a stainless steel penetrator on the guided mortar wont be the best of ideas i believe, along with the low
weight, high cost and low speed at point of impact it wont do much.
the military can pin-point radio emissions quite accuratly and when they do trianglulate your position i would think that's
cutains for you... the radio hopping is achived by the transmittion from radio A to radio B, A then transmitts a code that is
recognised by B and this then codes for what frequencies that they operate on (it is a LONG but mathematically based
theorum) so you could brak the code but it would take so long that it's not even an option to your grand children. the sending
radio hops to a seperate channel (it does not use any other channel at same time) at a random time, and some new radio's
change the scrambling system at every few hops. they work on a restricted range of frequencies (about 100hz range i.e 1000-
1100hz) and use sub-channels of these (1000.001hz etc) so you would have to monitor all these channels at the same time
and piece them together... not a nice job !
the us army tried something like your mortar, but it was deployed from a 155mm cannon shell, it could listen for tanks/low
flying helicopters and it would throw a AT mine at the target :D the thing was called SKAT or SKEETER and about 20 were in a
155mm shell, it was for inteligent minefields, blowing up if infantry came across it, right out of terminator 2 man.....
EDIT: this time i make a bit more sense
Gr3yscale September 27th, 2002, 03:44 PM

I didnt want to decode their transmissions, just use their radios as relays for my signal so they probably wont trace the signal
nor jam it. just an idea.
yeah those scout cars are *so* cool.

A big problem I see with guided mortars is their rifling. You DO want the mortars to rifle in the air, to have any hope of
accuracy, right? So, when they are coming down, it becomes difficult to control with your model airplane servos. "Right" may
not steer the mortar right, "Left" my steer the mortar away from the tank. If this idea is pursued, then this problem must be
dealt with.
As for motors for rockets, that is no problem. You don't necessarily have to buy commercially-made ones. In fact, it seems
many rocket enthusiasts build their own motors from PVC pipe and a filler. The filler, for high-power rocketry, is usually
Ammonium Nitrate based.
I don't know why I didn't think about this before, but rockets do seem the best way to deliver a KE weapon. HAMAS's (You
know, the Palestinian guys?) "Qassam-2" rocket is basically just water pipe filled with a propellant, and it carried 11 kg. Their
design was very basic, and any rocket enthusiast could find many ways to improve upon it; perhaps to the point that we are
able to deliver our beloved 20 kg loads at high speeds?
Hah, a cement lorry ramming a tank would actually be funny, especially if it were effective. That is along the lines of a guerilla
tactic... The guerillas commandeer a tractor trailer, go top speed, and ram the thing into the target. Tractor Trailers have
amazing saftey systems, so it may not even be necessary to eject. After ramming, the driver (if he is alive) escapes into a
get-away vehicle that accompanies the tractor trailer.
[ September 27, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]

Dispense with the rifling and use fins. Simpler and the thing doesn't spin.
The safety systems aren't that good. I've seen footage of a lorry hitting a bridge pillar at motorway speed and there is *no*
way anything in that unit would survive!

A projectile can't come down at greater speed than it went up (and commercial rocket engines won't help much) so the KE
mortar round would need as high or higher muzzle velocity than, say, a tank's main gun to be effective. A mortar capable of
such feat probably wouldn't be too different from the 155mm towed howitzer mentioned above :D Neither very portable nor
expendable. Also, a mach 5 shell is a bit harder to aim by joystick than a mach 0.5 version, and acceleration during the launch
of the former would crush the said off-the-shelf electronics to begin with. I'd go with the SC.
ENGINEERKILLER September 27th, 2002, 04:21 PM

sincgars. single channel ground air radio systems the radios won't repeat unless you program to do so the radios are timed
together and loaded with the same freqs before they are used and this requires a special encryption tool and the radios we
use hop somwhere along the lines of 2,000 times a second.
Unless you have alot of indirect fire weapons your chances of being able to drop a round on a moving vehicle is pretty
slim.The army has fielded the copperhead which is a laser guided artillery round that can hit a moving tank .Also the w.a.m.
wide attack munition wich deploys a antitank mine over anything that meets its criteria for a threat.The problem I see with a
tank hole is that the weight of the tank falling in the hole usualy makes a landslide and this gives it way to climb out under its
on power and it can climb a 60 degree slope.

Helvetica"> A projectile can't come down at greater speed than it went up (and commercial rocket engines won't help much) so
the KE mortar round would need as high or higher muzzle velocity than, say, a tank's main gun to be effective.<hr /
></blockquote>Not necessarily true. If the mortar round gets shot into the air
using normal mortar ammo and is then directed downwards before it reaches apogee and along with that a rocket engine
ingnites you could get an amazing bit of speed. Also, making sure the projectile still accelerates till impact, can compensate
for too low speed.
Ofcourse the highest achievable speed would be a rocket launched from a jetfighter at mach 1,5, but that ain't exactly
improvised...

one thing that i have ALWAYS dreamed of was building a
heat-seeker, well after many years of school/university and looong and pointless chats with people who would know the theory
of how to do this, i stumbled on to an idea.... IF model rockets can be made to seek the sun (called sun-seeker guidence no-
less :rolleyes: ) then why can't I swop some infra-red sensitive receptors for the LDR's that the sun seeker uses, or on failing
that use a receptor that seeks something like intense ultra-violet (or if possible a wavelength that the sun does not transmit
on) and have some form of laser/emmitter that would "paint" the target. I realise that this is exactly what the military uses.
So if i was to build this sun-seeker guidance system, attach it onto a home-made missle launcher (AND the powered fins), with
another person "painting" the target with the correct frequency of light i should in theory be able to aim at anything within
range with a HIGH probability of hitting said object. this would solve the problem of using highly expensive gear for the control
of the mortar, as the targeting team would just call in an "air-strike" :D of sorts, with the laser painting the target... you get
the rest
If i had to use LDR's i would just need to attach a flare or such other light source and use it at night.... Or if it was infra-red
then i would be the owner of a homemade stinger :D i always knew i was smarter then any IRA techie :p (mind you they did
make a few interesting gadgets)
I had another idea relating to the articulated lorry idea, if you were to load up the trailor, wire out the annoying brakes (air-
powered) and near to the target you release the trailor and make a 180 and piss off as fast as that lorry can go. The trailor
should speed off into the target, with only a small loss in mass and velocity and you can drive away without having another
vehicle ready and waiting, and you can drive back to the RV and pick up another trailor!! :D You could carry on until you
believe that your ideas have been figured out..
thats when you break out the home-made copper head :p

Flares containing PTFE as an oxidizer are used as infrared decoys. Especially at night they should attract heat seekers.
Gr3yscale September 29th, 2002, 04:06 PM

I had an Idea the other day;
a tripwire.
well, a piece of fishing line strung across a road (or whatever) where a tank is expected to pass, it hangs below barrel level but
above cassis level.
when the tank moves into it, it pulls it along, and pulls up a piece of parachord, which pulls up a long bag or tube of HE... onto
the turret ring :D
not sure how to detonate it though, electronicly sensing the metal body of the tank? some kind of mechanical system with a
magnet?
or more simply, another length of chord on the other end of the bag that activates a det sortof like the things in party
poppers, you know?
what do you think?

Not a bad idea, and pull-string initiation would probably be the easiest and most reliable.
Since we've had ideas like railguns, induction cooking and covering the tank in paint... An adaption to the above idea is to
string some *really* sharp cheese wire across the street and use the tank's own driving force to slice itself in half! Ingenious!
:D
I think those sun-seekers work because the source they are seeking is so strong. A laser or even a flare isn't a whole lot for
what is probbaly a very basic circuit to detect.

all you need to do is to boost the sensitivity of the LDR's (if using visable light) or to boost the range of movement to the fins
(but not the sensitivity) so that they can track sources over greater arc's.
if i was to improve on the sun-seeker guidance then i would probably use ultra-violet sensors and lasers (it WOULD be difficult
to avoid rockets flying at the sun, but common sense would help.
at night it would be easy, as v.little man-made light generates this unwanted wavelength, and the fact that the wavelength is
so low means better accuracy when targeting. if i damped the sensitive receptors to a degree, then i would help to reduce the
other less-powerful UV sources that might confuse the war-head
I am intending on making this btw, in conjunction with a few friends we have the know how and equipment. but i wanted to get
opinions before starting so that any forsee able problems could be side-stepped
Zyklon_B October 7th, 2002, 07:35 PM

Modern tanks use a 120mm smoothbore cannon. This seems to be the standard for Canada, the USA, and all of Europe. The
projectile they fire is similar to a Flechette, it is called a tungsten penetrator. Its ability to kill tanks doesnt have to do with
explosives, but high speeds and kinetic energy. It can be assumed that 120mm cannons can take out any tank in the
American and European theater, or else they would quickly be phased out.
Further information on the projectiles of modern tanks:

Helvetica">
The original M829 threw a 9.41 pound (that's 65,870 grains), 1.06" diameter, 24" long, depleted uranium dart at 5480 f/s!
The A1 version fired a 10.78 pound dart at 5170 f/s and the current A2 version throws a slightly longer (30") but skinnier (.8")
10.85 pound dart at 5512 f/s. (For you hand loaders, operating pressures of the M829 series are between 74K psi and 96K
psi.) The M865 TPCSDS-T (Target Practice Cone Stabilized Discarding Sabot with Tracer) training round throws a 7 pound
aluminum dart at 5577 f/s. (This round has a MUCH shorter maximum range than the M829 and can thus be safely fired on
most tank ranges.) There is also a US M829E3 round under development that should have even more spectacular ballistics.
<hr /></blockquote><img src="http://www.atk.com/defense/
descriptions/products/images/Sabot%20streak2.jpg" alt=" - " />
This gives some idea of what performance would be required from a homemade or reactivated cannon.
MrSamosa October 18th, 2002, 04:10 PM

Continuing along the lines of using lots of explosives, Qassam Brigades have blown up another Merkava-3 tank. Here's a
snippet from their communique on October 12.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Qassam Brigades declare full responsibility for blasting a highly-explosive device weighing 70
kilograms under a Mirkava-3 that was passing in the so-called Netsarim area at 4.30 this evening Saturday 6th Shaaban
1 4 2 3 H 12.10.2002AD.<hr /></blockquote><fon t size="2" face="Verda na, Arial, Helvetica">70 Kg o f High
Explosives! There, that's how you take out a tank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Sorry for simply
restating points made earlier in this thread and not offering anything new, but I felt this was relevant to the discussion.
the resourceless reaperman October 19th, 2002, 05:05 PM

In case it's a brick street you could just put some barrels of AP or ANFO under the surface, put a mine on top and carefully put
the bricks back. (use a mine with a high weight tolerance! an anti-tank mine for instance). that should blow the tank to pieces
quite nicely since the bottom isn't that densely armored.
kingspaz October 19th, 2002, 05:48 PM

some barrels of AP?! what the fuck?! if you can make a barrel of AP and not die i'd like to see how you'd get it in a hole
without it going off also. the bricked street idea is decent though.
try and think before you post.
the resourceless reaperman October 20th, 2002, 06:35 AM

Well I don't really know much about explosives, so I just picked something. :rolleyes: I'm more into the theoretical stuff
really.
It was more about the idea with the brick street.
Could blackpowder work?
[ October 20, 2002, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: the resourceless reaperman ]
Machiavelli October 20th, 2002, 09:54 AM

Maybe, if the containment was good enough.
However, one of our local customs on this board is that if you don't know shit about something, you don't post about it, even if
it's a question, then it should be visible that you've already researched the topic.
While the brick street idea is ok, the explosive suggestions are crap. Since we are usually discussing things that can cost you
everything from fingers or eyes to arms, legs or even your and other person's lifes if they go wrong, we don't take bullshit
lightly.
Please try to be more precise in your future posts and keep to stuff you know.
Zyklon_B October 20th, 2002, 10:32 AM

I was thinking of a system for a mine that would involve using a large steel drum welded into a bottle neck going into a steel
pipe. Inside the steel pipe a steel rod fitting the diameter of the pipe is inserted and the end of the pipe is covered with a
plastic sheet as to keep debris and rain out of the barrel. The mine would then be filled with an explosive such as ANFO and a
trigger device of your choice could be used, be it remote controlled or some pressure plate system. It would then be placed
into a hole in the street up to the depth needed to keep the steel pipe only inches from the surface.
When a tank comes along the explosion would propel steel rod at terminal velocities directly under the tank. If one has access
to a mill the center of the steel rod can be filled by another explosive and an impact detonation device.
Does this idea seem sound?
DarkAngel November 1st, 2002, 08:00 AM

Look where the Brit's are working on.
From: <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F08%2F19%2Fnmod19.x ml"

target="_blank">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F08%2F19%2Fnmod19.x ml</a>
'Electric armour' vaporises anti-tank grenades and shells

By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 19/08/2002)
An electric "force field" for armoured vehicles that vaporises anti-tank grenades and shells on impact has been developed by
scientists at the Ministry of Defence.
The "electric armour" has been developed in an attempt to make tanks and other armoured vehicles lighter and less
vulnerable to anti-tank grenade launchers such as those used by the Taliban and al-Qa'eda fighters in Afghanistan.
It could be fitted to the light tanks and armoured personnel carriers that will replace the heavy Challenger II tanks and Warrior
APCs in one of the two British armoured divisions.
The ubiquitous RPG-7 anti-tank grenade launcher can be picked up for a mere $10 in most of the world's trouble spots but is
capable of destroying a tank and killing its crew. When the grenade hits the tank, its "shaped-charge" warhead fires a jet of
hot copper into the target at around 1,000mph. This is capable of penetrating more than a foot of conventional solid steel
armour.
The new electric armour is made up of a highly-charged capacitor that is connected to two separate metal plates on the tank's
exterior. The outer plate, which is bullet-proof and made from an unspecified alloy, is earthed while the insulated inner plate is
live.
The electric armour runs off the tank's own power supply. When the tank commander feels he is in a dangerous area, he
simply switches on the current to the inner plate.
When the warhead fires its jet of molten copper, it penetrates both the outer plate and the insulation of the inner plate. This
makes a connection and thousands of amps of electricity vaporises most of the molten copper. The rest of the copper is
dispersed harmlessly against the vehicle's hull.
But despite the high charge, the electrical load on the battery is no more than that caused by starting the engine on a cold
morning.
In a recent demonstration of the electric armour for senior Army officers, an APC protected by the new British system survived
repeated attacks by rocket-propelled grenades that would normally have destroyed it several times over.
Many of the grenades were fired from point-blank range but the only damage to the APC was cosmetic. The vehicle was driven
away under its own power.
Prof John Brown, of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, which developed the Pulsed Power System at its R&D site
at Fort Halstead, Kent, said it was attracting a lot of interest from both the MoD and the Pentagon.
With the easy availability of RPG-7 rocket launchers "it only takes one individual on, say, a rooftop in a village to cause major
damage or destroy passing armoured vehicles", he said.
But the use of electric armour, which will protect against all shaped-charge warheads including artillery and tank shells, would
reduce the threat to zero. --End
Which kind of actions do you have in mind that could be taken to bypass this system?
A double shaped charge warhead could maybe used in some sort of similar fashion like the patent(?) NBK ones posted, about
a warhead that can penetrate through a wall using a shaped charge and than pushes out a grenade to cancel the targets
inside the room.
Only the 2nd SC is made smaller so it doesn't come in contact with the outer plate.
Or somekind of way to isolate the yet?

A jet from another material than copper that doesn't conduct?
"The electric armour runs off the tank's own power supply."
Maybe that can be used against them, like a special warhead that let the tank run out of power in some sort of way?
An EMP device that can be shot into the tank and makes use of the tanks power suply?(im not into electronics so correct me if
it makes no sence)
Bitter November 1st, 2002, 10:58 AM

How about a cermet penetrator that isn't likely to be vaporized and doesn't conduct electricity ?
Jacks Complete December 1st, 2003, 06:36 PM

The electric armour is a great idea, and it pisses me off as to how close I had been a few years ago.
Ok, how it works.
When you fire an RPG, it hits the target and explodes. The shaped charge uses a copper disc and explosively forms a jet of
molten copper, which is very heavy and burns through the armour. Needless to say, the jet is very conductive. Any molten
metal is, even more so than any metal (conductivity is a defining feature of metals).
This system works using a pair of spaced plates of armour, and a high powered capacitor bank. The capacitor bank is charged,
and everything is fine. The two plates are separated by either some solid insulator, or an air gap. When the RPG hits, the jet
breaks through the first plate, travels across the air gap, and reaches the second plate. At this instant (don't forget that
electricity travels at half the speed of light, generally) the circuit is made, and the capacitor bank discharges through the jet of
copper. The electromagnetic forces and heating in the jet blow it to bits, and the liquid copper is then splattered on the inside
of the air gap, having failed to break through the internal plate. Two hits in exactly the same place would get through, but the
odds are very much against you. Two simultaneous strikes might do it, too, as the capacitors might be discharged enough for
it to fail to disrupt one of them. Any little strands of copper that bridge the gap are rapidly melted by the repeated firing of the
system.
The outer armour would be made thick enough to stop a standard round from bridging the gap. A large enough dent would do
the trick, followed up by an RPG, if it was an air gap. I somehow doubt that it is.
As for the rest of this thread, well, some of the ideas here are interesting, to say the least. Mis-guided might be the better
description...
Firstly, why does everyone think the top of a tank is the thinest armour? It isn't! Quite the opposite! The soft underbelly of an
M1 has a mere 3" of armour in places (like the non-vital areas, and outside the crew compartments) while the top has far
more, and blocks of DU or titanium are added if they feel it is needed, as well as reactive armour blocks.
For info, the top of an M1A3 has the equivalent of 850mm of RHA to a KE projectile, and 1300mm+ vs a shaped charge. The
front of the tank, which used to be toughest, has 800mm equiv. The M1A2HA (Heavy Armour) had extra DU slabs and RA, and
it had 800mm equiv. on the turret, and 750mm on the front.
Note that RHA stands for Rolled Homogenous Armour, and refers to high quality steel armour plate. It is used as the standard
measure, since modern armour is far superior, at least 3 times better than plain steel RHA, hence these silly sounding
thicknesses.
Modern tanks have radios, and video cameras, and claymore mines, as well as air overpressure systems, etc.
Molotov cocktails won't work against British Army Landrovers, let alone a modern tank. Nor will trying to shoot the vision slits.
The machineguns all work from inside the tank, they have overpressure systems to stop NBC, the tracks are pretty solid, they
can climb walls, crush houses, blow away other tanks, and any fool running up to one with a can of paint is going to be
decorating the wall behind him, whether from the tank or the supportig infantry. Even without local support, the air force could
napalm/cluster bomb the area, without much risk to the crew of the tank.
The only way you are going to kill a tank is the blow it to hell with high explosive. Use a low explosive, and flip it, and the crew
will be trapped, but then two more tanks turn out with a tank rescue vehicle, and air support, troops, etc. and even if you look
like Mother Teressa, you are going to get shot if you walk outside! They right the tank, free the crew, and you get shot while
trying to snipe the crew. The tank gets repainted, and it is back a week later. The crew are fine, since they were wearing the
safety harnesses provided, and they have specially mounted seats to stop "gunners knee" (where the shock of a hit gets
transmitted through the hull and liquidises the bones on the gunners legs below the knee).
Personally, I would go with a half dozen tank rounds or artillery shells turned into mines, buried well, and remote detonated.
Spaced them out well, and you blow one when it is in the middle. Then use the others to get the reinforcements.
An idea I had was a rolled thin sheet of plastic explosive, which would be rolled out all the way down a thinish road, spaced for
the mines, with charges designed to knock down trees (det cord) or houses (dynamite) along the sides.
Wait for tank #1 to reach either mine 3, 4 or 5, depending on local procedures. Blow it up. Use the other mines to immediately
strike the support units and other tanks/vehicles in the area. Now stop. Wait till people start swarming the area, getting out of
vehicles, etc. then detonate the sheets of explosive, and the trees/walls come down at the same time. Actually, setting off the
sheets a few seconds afterwards would be even better...
That would get most of them. Then use one sniper, at a distance, to take out anyone moving. He would be expendable,
though.
AsylumSeaker December 2nd, 2003, 08:50 AM

Apparently a weak spot on the abrams is the turret ring where the turret meets the body. Even then you need AT weaponry.
RPGs won't do it.
After watching some movies of some detcord being wrapped around the trunk of a tree and detonated to blow the tree down, I
wondered if you could do the same thing around the barrel of the tanks main gun.. but then you would have to climb on top of
the tank to do that. Maybe if it was just sitting there you could sabotage it that way.
I say kamakazee a boeing 747 into it. :p
vulture December 2nd, 2003, 01:48 PM

Hmm. Airplanes. RC helicopter or aircraft? Seems alot easier than a RC mortar round.
RC cars with shaped charges to blow off the tracks seems feasible too.
TreverSlyFox December 2nd, 2003, 03:17 PM

Having spent, shall we say, just a little bit of time around the Militia movement this has been discussed for many years along
with what the hell do you do against Attack Helos. The general consences is YOU DON'T screw with Armor or Helos, at least not
on the battlefield. Unless you have High Explosives and lots of it.
Otherwise you deal with Armor and Helos at their bases, refueling points and repair centers. You destroy their fuel, ammo,
repair facilities and crews. The LAST thing you want to do is go up against Armor or Helos on the battlefield.
The crews have to sleep, eat and shit just like anyone else and they don't spend 24/7 in their tanks. That is their weekness
and that's when you use your improvised goodies to the most advantage. Don't try blowing up the tank, blow up his refuling
truck and ammo dump, kill it's mechanics, waste it's crew at their base. The one weekness modern Armies have is that it
takes a lot of supply and support people to maintain one combat soldier in the field. Kill the supply and it's people and you
kill the Army.
The Germans blew it in WWII during the Battle of the Bulge when they failed to capture the Fuel Depots, the Armor stopped
moving and the attack ground to a halt. The Alies reenforced, the weather cleared and the Air assets had a field day killing
stationary Armor that still had full ammo loads.
AsylumSeaker December 2nd, 2003, 06:01 PM

Hrmm. How much weight do you think an RC chopper could carry? If you got the biggest on available.. and removed all the
crap it didn't need, like landing gear and the decorations and everything.. you could rig it with a reasonable sized shaped
charge couldn't you? And land it on the roof somewhere and detonate it. Wouldn't be difficult. Might need a bit of flying
practise.
And then you could make 5 or 6 of these RC shaped charge choppers and have 5 or 6 people attack the tank with a swarm of
them. A small swarm, but still..
xyz December 3rd, 2003, 04:19 AM

I don't think you will get a big enough SC onto a model helicopter, it is an interesting idea though.
Treverslyfox, infantry can be effective against helicopters so long as they have some cover/camouflage, what do you think
RPGs and Stingers are for?
If you are going to bury a charge like Jack's Complete said, why not just use several hundred Kg (like 500Kg) of ANFO? Who
cares if it doesn't have an armour shattering VoD, let's see that tank (and it's crew) remain funtional after being tossed 25m
into the air and then coming down again (60 tons of armour, engine, and weaponry is usually not very skilled at landings :) ).
dana_m_h December 3rd, 2003, 08:11 PM

Anyone remember this?: http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mortar.html
This might have a chance to penetrate armor, or at least be able to scare someone in a tank. If fired straight up it could hit a
soft spot on top and/or break something. Just a thought. Oh yeah you could also cut the bowling ball in half hollow out the
center slightly and then fill it with something to make it heavier or a high explosive and another substance in the middle to
make it go off. Again just a thought.
Jacks Complete December 3rd, 2003, 08:36 PM

I think www.docsmachine just got DDoS'd!! (Connection refused) It's getting like Slashdot!
If, however, it is the one I think it is, those bowling balls would just shatter. The tanker would just look for someone to shoot
then!
However, full of a fairly high powered explosive, it should go bang. Don't think it would do much to an MBT, but against an APC
or light tank, you would probably win.
The problem with RC helicopters is that they are as loud as a chainsaw. So are planes. They cannot carry much weight, either.
The solution?
Use a large powered glider. Use the motor to get it high up, then cut the power (or design it to run hard and die) and then just
steer it into your target. You could get an extra 300 mph on your explosively formed projectile with a powered dive, I bet.
As for bouncing a tank onto it's roof, that will just piss them off. Sure they are stopped, until another tank (or dozer) rights
them. The guys inside wear seat harnesses, as they go over rough ground with crap suspension at 30+mph and hit mines!
Lets put it this way - if an armoured limo can let the driver, etc. walk away with cuts and bruises after one gets flipped by a
huge mine, what chance have you got of killing a tanker? You can't starve them out, or anything, either, as they will have
support, and a radio.
Hell, try it. I just don't see it working.
I have a cool slideshow of a T-72 vs. a Javlin anti-tank missile somewhere, I will dig it up and upload it. It shows how to deal
with a tank!
AsylumSeaker December 4th, 2003, 05:28 PM

I heard from someone who seemed to know what he was talking about that some modern tanks are being given lasers which
shoot down missiles before they hit the tank? (!) Can anyone verify this?
Jack - perhaps a tank wouldn't be to bothered by being flipped, but once its on its back you could climb onto its belly and stick
some big shaped charges on it or a pile of thermite. Provided you had a whole crowd of people hiding with machetes or
something (crowds of people usualy aren't to difficult to gather in the third world countries that america always invades) to
watch your back.
People have mainly suggested burrying huge explosive charges of ANFO, etc. How about if you buried a huge shaped charge?
More difficult to make, but surley more effective.
xyz December 5th, 2003, 05:19 AM

A huge shape charge would be very difficult to make and much harder to correctly use than a massive amount of ANFO.
Jack's Complete, I think that 500Kg of ANFO will do more than flip the tank, it will toss it 25 - 50m into the air as if it were a
child's toy. It will probably also remove the tracks and any other vulnerable parts while it does this.
Then comes the fun part, the landing :) .
apathyboy December 5th, 2003, 08:17 AM

I was aimlessly wandering the net when I found mention of a new anti tank missle called LOSAT that works on KE only, no
warhead. The technical specs are here (http://www.atk.com/aerospace/descriptions/tactical-propulsion/losat.htm)
I don't know if all of this is workable, but some of the rocketry work on this forum has been pretty impressive. If the tank was
close enough, guidance might not even be a problem, especially if you launched a couple of them. There's also a movie of
the LOSAT in action at White Sand's site (http://www.wsmr-history.org/LOSAT2.mpeg)
Actually, after seeing that movie again, I think there'd be a substantial minimum range for that thing to get up to 5000 fps,
maybe a guidance package would be a good thing
Of course, half the posters here could just make up a nice EFP charge, so I'm not sure which is easier.
stickfigure December 5th, 2003, 11:07 AM

Recent events in Iraq should be noticed as any credible source of information on defeating an M1A1.
Quote:
October 31, 2003: The U.S. Army is not saying much about the "mystery projectile" that went through the side skirts and side
armor of an M-1A1 tank last August 28th. Whatever it was just barely missed the tanks gunner (it went through the back of his
seat and grazed part of his flak jacket) and put a pencil size hole nearly 50mm deep into the four inch thick armor on the
other side of the tank. The damage may have been done by a projectile, not a shaped charge (which uses a jet of super-hot
plasma to burn a hole in armor and put a quantity of plasma and molten metal inside the tank.) No known RPG would do that
kind of damage. But some Western anti-tank rockets generate a different kind of plasma jet that might create the kind of
damage done. A U.S. 25mm armor piercing shell (fired from the gun mounted on the M-2 Bradley armored vehicle) uses a
small penetrator, but that penetrator is of depleted uranium, which burns like a flare once it is inside its target. One major
unknown is the large number of portable anti-tank weapons (especially Russian and Chinese models) that have not been
tested against the M-1 tank. It's not unusual for new weapons to have unpredictable effects once they are first used in
combat. Until the army releases more information, if they have any, the mystery lingers.
In the sort of excited langua ge seldom included in official Army documents, he said, The unit is ve ry anx ious to have this
SOMETHING identified. It se ems clear that a penetrator of a yellow mo lten m etal is wha t caused the damage, bu t what
weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys
facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves.
While it s impossible to determine what caused the dama ge without actually examining the tank, some co nclusions can be
drawn from photos that accompanied the incident report. Those photos show a pencil-size penetration hole through the tank
body, but very little sign of the distinctive damage called sp alling that typically occu rs on the inside surface a fter a ho llow- o r
shaped-charge warhead from an anti-tank weapon burns its way through armor.
In the western countries the people have been disarmed so much that it would be near impossible to find a weapon or create
one that will fully destroy or disable a MBT. In Iraq civilians were issued military weapons and trained well in advance for urban
warfare so it does not supprise me that something like this has popped up. But considering how advanced the M1A1 is it
doesn't suprise me that it sustainded little to no damage either.
In Iraq there is a legend of a mythical beast that would come to Baghdad and destroy it, this beast could not be stopped by
the hands of man. In this war M1A1's were routinely hit by direct RPG and anti-tank rockets. One tank was hit by at least 8
RPG rounds with them literally bouncing off the front of the turret. Not a single M1A1 was completely destroyed with loss of life
to the crew, or in Desert Storm either. Many were disabled but they are always accompanied by backup. Infact this war had a
couple of hit to the ammuntion bays which caused them to cook off, again no loss of life and in the words of the crew the blast
doors "Worked as advertised".
This legend came to life in the minds of the Iraqi militia men who were plagued by nightmares of the M1A1 to the point that,
the US capitalized on this and startred playing recordings of tank movements broadcast from loud speakers near towns and
villages the were putting up resistance. They did this nightly until the towns were either invaded or gave up.
Some suggestions like detonating large amounts of charges would work, but that would only take care of a couple at most a
few tanks. The US has some where around 3500 M1A1's and A2's in inventory.
here overview of M1 losses in Iraq:
http://www.fireandfury.com/phorum/read.php?f=4&i=839&t=839
Flake2m December 5th, 2003, 12:33 PM
While the M1A2 abrams tank is the most advanced MBT in use today, it is still vunerable in the same areas like other tanks.
The bottom, the top and the arse.
I am surprised the Iraqis didn't try to take out a tank by sticking about 10-20kg of C4/semtex under a manhole cover, wait for
a tank to drive over it then BOOM.
The force of the manhole cover being propelled by 10-20kg of high explosives would be enough to either disable the tank by
maybe blowing off its tracks or flipping it.
Or why not have a very brave person attach copper linears to the underside of the tank. If the tank was stationary, they could
use a diamond tipped drill and screw on the linears, Or use a strong adhesive such as expoxy and glue them on.
There is an old saying "In the battle between warhead and armor, the warhead always wins". So eventually some individual(s)
is going to figure out a way to take out a M1 Abrams tank whether the US likes it or not.
Jacks Complete December 5th, 2003, 05:06 PM

Flake2m,
It doesn't matter how brave/stupid anyone is, they aren't going to win that way. You crawl under a tank, and you get smeared.
The tank crews also know well enough not to drive over a manhole cover like a total newbie! Read the report above your post,
which credits the lack of losses as much to the support as to the tank itself.
The sad fact is, unless you are a first rate, first-world army, you aren't even going to get to slow the US army down.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur December 8th, 2003, 04:00 PM

the russians were developing an anti-anti-tank missle system that featured a large shotgun that was to shoot the incoming
round down, along with this they tried mounted flares (as most of the modern ATGM's use a flare on the rear of the missle,
multiple flairs just spastify the simple computer)
it would need a very well crafted and heavy home-made shaped charge to harm a modern tank in any way, i can only
recommend that a mobility kill is the aim, as tank tracks don't have the same 800 mils of RHA to keep it safe ;)
the turret ring is the weak-point of any tank with a turret (the israeli merkava uses HEAVY chain over the back of the turret
over-hang to prematurely set an RPG off) realistically we need to think up a smooth-bore cannon (simgle shot) that might
offer some hope of damaging the lighter vehicles.
and for my last comment, the reason that tungsten and DU are used in ballistic penetrators would be due the the unusual
property of self-sharpening (fragments broken off from the penetrator only serve to increase the length-to-cross section ratio)
the action is called adiabatic shear banding.

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/DU-Amorphous-Tungsten-Alloy30jul03.htm
ossassin December 9th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Jack, I'm confident that the US could be stopped. It wouldn't be easy, and ironically, I think that the American civilians would
have the best chance. After all, we've done it before, why couldn't we do it again? It would just take a little old-fashioned
American ingenuity. :) Don't get me wrong, though. I support our country in all its indeavors. Hopefully a truly tyrannical US
government will be something that only future generations will have to deal with.
Jacks Complete December 9th, 2003, 09:55 PM

I agree that the only ones that could stop the US Army would be a white, english speaking, western army. This is because the
US public would baulk at seeing US troops bombing the shit out of nice folks who talk just like them.
All this talk about stopping the tanks, is, of course (as backed up by recent events) a waste of time. It isn't the tanks you
have to stop, it is the A10 that just strafed your house or the AC-130 that howitsered your car (and you) from three miles
away, because someone thirty miles away once hear a strange noise from your yard, and thought they saw a man in a turban
there once...
You need to knock down the jets, as the moment the US Army even thinks there is might be an ambush, they tend to call in
an airstrike, and levels a few city blocks. Then the tanks roll in, and mop up.
See my post in the water cooler for some enlightening stats as to how big an army you will need...
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50762#post50762
ossassin December 10th, 2003, 01:16 AM

It was not a racist remark. I was simply stating that the Americans are the ones who tend to change the style of warfare. In
order to be victorious against such an army, we would have to do that again.

I was thinkig about JCs statement... Surely if the airstrike came, there is no hope to the figthers, but only if the tanks can
make their way out.
So, the best way to not receive the little air babies is not allow the tanks to go out. Even if all the tanks crew is dead, the air
strike will not occur, because their senders can think that their boys are still alive.
Back to the 50ties, the hungarians made one revolution agains the red army and their frightening T34, at the time, one of the
most spetacular beasties ever made. Of course it haves some drawbacks, like the combustible tank at its back, where it can
be set on fire by the use of molotov cocktails and such.
Anyway, the hungarians hold the tanks with fake landmines, which the reds dont disturbed by fear of set of, or splashing
grease or heavy oil through the floor, so the tanks cant "grab" the track, covering the spots with paint, or even droping the
eletric cables over the tank, electrocuting all its crew.
At least, the M1 is much more an beast that the T34, but its still made of steel, and have the same blind spots, so, the
hungarian tecnics can be used again. I dont know, but I think that 20.000 volts, at more than 30 amps can fry anyone inside
an tank, whatever NBC defenses it haves.
vulture February 18th, 2004, 07:05 PM

Do tank gunners have a live round loaded all the time? If you'd find a way to set it off inside the turret...

Dave the rave,
I doubt you would fry the crew with electric, even in an older tank. How would the electric ever reach the crew? Surely it just
goes through the steel hull?
Dave the Rave February 20th, 2004, 10:24 AM

Vulture, they do have an live round, but its only become armed when leaves the barrel, just to prevent it to explode when
something is stuck on the barrel. Besides, I think that, due to the high velocityes the round is fired, even if something is stuck
through the barrel, the round will clear its way...
JC, My grandfather fougth the WWII and after that he fougth on Hungary, Bulgary, Macedonia and some other minnor
revolutions against the Reds, and he told me about it. First I tought that was an joke, but I found some old Times magazines
and some war correspondent wrote about it.
I think that, if the crew touches any metal part of the tank, that is grounded by itself, the current will flow through their bodies,
the same way it will flow through someone who is above an grounded metal object touched by electricity.
At my Country we have portable metal stairs, and many times I electrified myself when over the stair, just because the
exposed cable touched the body of the stair.

Vulture, they do have an live round, but its only become armed when leaves the barrel, just to prevent it to explode when
something is stuck on the barrel. Besides, I think that, due to the high velocityes the round is fired, even if something is stuck
through the barrel, the round will clear its way...
Sure, but a high velocity round will set off a rather oversized detonator which would then set off the round...

Nice tougth, but which mouse will put the bell on cats neck ? Unless someone wait till the tank moves and then climb its
back and put the detonator, but someone who can climb the tank can also throw some grenades inside the spots...

I'm not entirely sure, but don't have modern tanks cameras instead of spots?
Kinda defeats the purpose of state-of-the-art armor.
The spots should be only for emergency use.
Jacks Complete February 23rd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Spots => Ports, I think?
Spots would be spotlights, and ports would be where to look out of.
vulture February 24th, 2004, 06:29 AM

I (and probably Dave) was referring to the ports indeed. Sorry for the confusion.
Jacks Complete April 14th, 2004, 08:53 AM

vir sapit qui pauca loquitur,
just a note on your post from some time back...
You said about using some kind of heat seeker or laser tracking system for hitting moving targets, with reference to sunchaser
rockets.
The military took years to work out how to avoid the expensive prototype missiles taking off after the sun. I can, therefore,
tell you one of the ways. If you are using a laser, you want to modulate it, in the same way as an infrared remote control. By
doing this, preferably with a non-repeating code (at least over the seconds of the flight time) and have your missile look only
towards that, then you will have no problems with sun chasing. However, most modern tanks now have a set of sensors on
them which tell the crew when some idiot is targetting them with a laser beam, as well as the direction he is in. Also, since
modern tanks have both NIR and thermal imaging equipment, they can both see the beam path (as they are nearly on the
axis of the beam, and so see a lot more scattering) and probably you too, in spite of your cammo gear.
If you are going to do it, do it remotely! If you are going to do it safely, do it (at least) 2 steps removed from your fragile ass!
It might be worth starting a thread on heat and guided rocket systems.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Simple handgrenade designs
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Hundminen January 13th, 2002, 05:02 AM

Here are two simple handgrenade designs that I know of that are pretty simple mechanically and can be as "safe" to handle as common military types.
The first type uses a preccussion ignitor:

This consists of a tube with the blastcap on bottom,then fuze/powder train then topped with a shotgun pimer with small bb epoxied in the center(bb must be covered with
epoxy completely. the "holder" for this tube is threaded externally to except the screw on safety cap.
To use=unscrew safety cap/cover, bang the head(epoxy blob) on something hardand dispose of.
this design is handy for highly concealable small handgrenades/or large destructive ones.
Second design is the "electric grenade"

This is simply an electric blasting cap with fuze train in a single tube with the lead wires secured to two screws in the top of the grenade body.
To use this grenade,the operator has a nine-volt battery taped to a string/para-cord round his neck to ignite the grenade he touches the lead screws on the battery posts and
disposes.
I did a search for grenade types and didn't find these types so I figured I'd share them,just my 2 cents.

"electric blasting cap with fuze train"
I think you meant e-match, or electric ignitor.
Noct January 13th, 2002, 01:13 PM

I am sure this has been mentioned before, but it seems about as simple as it gets....
co2 cartridge (empty) filled w/ powdered explosive, fuse at the end.
Seven or so wrapped together parallel to one another, with the fuses tied together (braided/taped/whatever), then when one blows the rest will probably disperse, each going
off soon after.
This is, of course, only for anti-personnel purposes.
ENGINEERKILLER January 13th, 2002, 01:53 PM

Most common modern handgrenades fuzes do not begin arming until they are in flight .Spoon flies off sending the stryker home to detonater .I know there are exceptions to
this like simulaters and anti-tank grenades .To me there is something nerve racking about holding a functioning grenade in my hand .
From experience I can say that CO2 idea is not very effeicent when the first one goes it will snuff out alot of the other fuzes before it scatters them.
[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: ENGINEERKILLER ]
Madog555 January 13th, 2002, 02:56 PM

Noct, that is called a crater maker and they are very common
i think the stick greanades (WWII german ones) dont have a lever thing on them. i know that they do have greanades that go instantly when the lever goes off. these are for
boby traps. i would hate to mistake one of these for a normal greanade. i
have a deactivated pineaple greanade and i will upload a pic of it if any of you are interesed.
Hundminen January 13th, 2002, 03:24 PM

my point is that these designs are quite simple for resistance fighters to mannufacture in quantity.The grenade greatly compliments the handgun and boltaction rifle which is
usually the only weapons one can musterup in times of emergency.As far as holding burning/armed grenade is concerned:
with these designs the fuze would be a couple seconds longer than usual to ensure ignition.
These are both proven designs that have shown up in the balkans.
Of course mouse trap designs are Ideal, but these are "make-doable".
The german potato-masher and egg grenade are friction ignited and are "burning" while in the opertors hand.

I'm talking about grenades made within the last twenty years or so most every foreign country has made some sort of friction pull pull grenade the vietcong made about 10
diffrent versions .If i ever figure out how to upload pictures I'got 2 inert ones at my house and alot of other diffrent ones.
The most complex grenade I have ever seen is the area denial anti pursuit used by SF.It has a 25 second delay then it ejects 12 hair fine trip wires that only require 7-8oz of
pressure to set them off .It also utilizes a frag ball with a liquid propellant so no matter how it lands the propellant is always at the bottom .
CyclonitePyro January 13th, 2002, 05:00 PM

You can find, or at least in America, grenade bodies almost anywhere, pinapple, baseball or lemon style. You can also purchase the screw on head, with the spoon and
internals. Someone I know drilled out the place where the striker hits to fit a .30 caliber shell, just the brass and primer, so you push the shell down the hole, pull back the
striker, and put on the spoon and insert the safety pin. When you pull the pin and let go of the spoon, the stiker flies up and strikes the primer and sends an explosion out the
shell and out the bottom of the grenade body. All the grenade bodies I've seen for sale have holes in the bottum which could be welded on. This grenade would only be used
for a booby trap, I'm sure you could modify it to ignite a fuse.

engineerkiller, i know i was just giveing an example.
and that trip wire one sound awsome. must be realy scarry if your the guy on the other side :eek:

The problem with internal fuse trains is that if you don't make them right (everytime!), there is a danger of the flame front flashing through like quickmatch.

Here is a diagram of a small "pen greanade" like i used to make. i used to use a comercial firecracker and a cheap bic pen (the white kind) the striker is folded over the side of
the side of the pen and taped in place. when you want to initiate it u just push in the match that sticks out the back. the tape protects the rest of the fuse from the fire so just
the tip gets lit. if it wasn't there the whole fuse would light at once when the match is pushed. in result giveing you no delay. of course this can be used on bigger devices but u
might need something like a KNO3/sugar to burn hot and long enough to light visco.
<a href="http://www27.brinkster.com/thehackforum/pen greanade.jpg">here</a>
[ March 12, 2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]
nbk2000 January 14th, 2002, 01:24 AM

What Engineerkiller described is called a PDM which stands for Persuit Denial Munition. It's a converted ADAM mine, normally used in artillery laid mining operations.
The trip wires shoot out for several yards in each directions and any pressure causes the mine to jump up about 3-5' before exploding. Very effective. But it's being slated to be
pulled from the arsenal because of the Ottawa Mine Ban Treaty. SOF is fighting to keep it, naturally.
I've been raking my brain to figure out how to build a work-a-like. The Toe Popper MK I is based on a 10 year old idea I've had, and is the closest thing I've been able to
come up with yet.
Pressure sensitive tripwires, all-ways propellant charges, millisecon accurate fuzes, etc. Too complicated to duplicate within reason.
I've thought of using PIR, Hall-effect magnetic, acoustic, seismic, and various others, but they all have the flaw of being liable to spontaneous initiation under the wrong
enviromental conditions. It has to be something that wouldn't be effected, like a tripwire.
Making a jumping mine is easy. Getting it to go off ONLY when it should, and EVERY time it should is the hard part.
Any ideas?

Tripwires are a great idea for jumping mines, I was thinking of something really simple, like a party popper glued into the top of a Det cap.
Only, party poppers are really sensitive, and the uncoiling of the wire might cause it to go off too soon, a few blobs of Whiteglue could keep it in place.
PYRO500 January 14th, 2002, 09:44 PM

An idea for mines I've had is making ones with built in metal detectors, anyonesteps on them, they go off, anyone looks for it with a metal detector/mine probe they go off, of
cousse you want to adjust it so the wiring dosen't set it off.

NBK are you talking bounding mines like the valmara*or m2 series .Or an actual jumping mine like the one in your briefcase?
I,am not trying to be a smartass pyro500,but it is not exactly like people like me go probing for mines with our carkeys in our pockets and our K-mart closehanger mine probes
.All military style mine detectors are made out of plastic an use carbon fiber wires in the probe head.and we use a magnetrometers on each other before we start searching.
I don't know if anyone cares about it or not but the pdm only has a 24 hour life span then it self destructs.This a big issue for the U.S. when it comes to land mines.As long a
mine will self neutrilez it will stay as part of our war stock indefinatley .
[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: ENGINEERKILLER ]
Cricket March 13th, 2002, 06:12 PM

The main problem I have with tring to make grenades is that I wouldbe scared that when the primer was hit, it would be too much for the primary at the bottom and make it
explode really fast. Maybe I just don't completely understand them though.
Madog555 March 13th, 2002, 06:34 PM

hey, look here if you wana see a very simple greanade ignition. the firecrtacker can be replaced with a piece of visco that leads to a cap. DO NOT LEAVE THE MATCH IN IT
WHILE HANDLEING IT, I HAD ONE SPONTAINIOUSLY IGNITE WHEN THE MATCH WAS MOVED. it is safe as long as the match is only put in when you are gonna throw it.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/madog555/pengreanade.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/madog555/pengreanade.jpg</a>
you might need to copy and past the link
Ctrl_C March 13th, 2002, 06:45 PM

how are these tripwires anchored? by weight? I have this incredibly complicated idea of it throwing little projectile things that swing from the line in a parabolic arch to gain
enough speed to plant themselves in the ground in a perfect 12-agon (whats a 12 sides figure called?) and expand little barbs underground to keep them in the ground tightly.
Also, how do they jump? Is it a mechanical spring device or another explosive?
ENGINEERKILLER March 13th, 2002, 10:03 PM

The tripwires which are actualy more like thread stay connected to the spools that they are wound off of. The amount pressure is so slight all (8oz)a person would have to do is
catch it with their feet.
every bounding mine that I am aware of uses a small explosive charge to propel it upwards.The one one the pdm is liquid so no matter how the grenade lands the frag ball
always floats on the propellant.
nbk2000 March 14th, 2002, 01:32 AM

The simplist "bounding" mine doesn't even bound. It sits on top of a stake.
It's the fact that it's above the ground when it explodes that makes bounding mines so lethal, because there's no ground to absorb the fragments.
The military style use fraction of a second pyrotechnic delays, or pull cords, to set the mine off just above the ground when it's fired. But I think it'd be much easy to improvise
one by using enough powder to launch the mine high into the air, so it'll fall down and explode in mid-air several seconds later.
This gives you enough time to use accurately measured lengths of visco fuse.
It doesn't really matter if the mine explodes 1 foot, or 10 feet, above the ground, as long as you've made it well.
I'm thinking a can lined with steel shot, filled with HE, capped with a cloth streamer with the fuse sticking out into a couple of grams of BP to propell it out the slightly larger can
into which it's sealed.
Any number of sensors launch it.
It'd be interesting to build a mine that would lean towards its target to lauch the kill mechanism (oops, starting to slip into MIL-SPEAK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> ) towards the target.
I'm envisioning a KM (Kill Mechanism AKA the bomb) in a stubby mortar, mounted on a pivot inside of a big plastic bowl (think tupperware) buried in the ground.
The mine is held upright by four "sticks" made of flashpaper or such.
When the mine is activated, the "stick" most directly pointing towards the victim is ignited. This blows the lid off the mine, and causes the mine mortar to fall free towards that
side.
It then fires the shell.

It would then explode a short distance away in a directional manner, similar to canister shot, rather than omnidirectional like an artillery shell.
The fragments than cover a wide elliptical shaped area, probably hitting the target.
EK, did you ever get those pictures of the insides of the bomblets?

I've got a video that goes over these, (hey, I've got a video that covers everything!) and it's Andy McNabb's Ultimate Warrior.
I'm uploading it to a shite host with file limits of 900kb, so I've uploading all 92 files (..sigh) to a web site and shall reply here with the link (or links) so you can download it.

Ok, so here we go:
<a href="http://theforum.has.it" target="_blank">http://theforum.has.it</a>
:) Enjoy!
DBSP March 14th, 2002, 02:12 PM

Maby it's just my computer but I can't acces that page.
There's no doubt that a mine above ground is more effective against the target than a normal mine.
This is perhaps not what you're discussing but since some ideas has gotten into adding shrapnell to the charge I might aswell get my idea out here.
If you emagine a cable wind, and then think of the exact thing but in metall. The explosive is placed in the center, were there normally isn't anything but the bottom wich the
cable is rolled up against.
Then you put a thin layer of plastic or similar oround the outside, and then fill the space where the cable is supposed to be with bbs or similar. If you don't uderstand what I
mean you could think of a tincan with a metall disc over the top and under the bottom.
This design would effectivly disperse the fragments in a cirkel arround the charge and steer the shrapnell in the right direction. It would be very similar to a claymore but it
would have a 360 degree angle of dispersial. If it would be about the size of a tincan and filled with abut 250-300g of explosive and the shrapnell being large ballbering steel
balls, it would be...well you can think of what it could do.
RTC March 14th, 2002, 03:21 PM

Sorry about that, try it now: <a href="http://theforum.has.it" target="_blank">http://theforum.has.it</a>

NBK: about your "leaning mine" - I read in a book (sorry, I can't be any more precise than that! It was a long time ago...) that some people used to protect their land from
poachers using swivelling guns. The gun had many tripwires in different directions, and when one was pulled by someone walking into it, it swung the gun round to point in that
direction, and then fired it.
So if you can find something describing that device, it could probably be easily copied if you wanted to make one. Substitute a pull ignitor and detonator for the trigger, and an
EFP for the gun and you'd have a nasty bit of kit...
drstrangelove March 15th, 2002, 04:10 PM

Heres what I use for grenade bodies,you will have seen these before and they are availible anywhere.You know those bamboo sticks which hold a black container with fuel and
a wick used for outdoor parties for light and or insect repelant,these containers are excellent for grenades as they come in various sizes and the lids screw on and off so
inserting the cap only takes a second or 2.
VasiaPupkin March 15th, 2002, 06:10 PM

Sorry for my English.
'My homemade fragmentation handgrenade'
I made a hole in ball for table tennis. Put aluminized plastic HE into ball, then insert a fuse.
Fuse was a "match for hunters" inserted (with glue) into 4 mm short plastic tube with primer. Plastic tube is a pivot from gelly pen.
This matches has also 4-5 mm diameter and can burn even in water.
When detonator is inserted. I covered ball with 4 layers of small nuts (2.5-3mm diamter of hole).
Binder for nuts was a liquid silicone latex (after polimerisation cover is a elastic rubber with a nut filler).
Be sure other liquid rubber materiails is possible. Instead of nuts you can use small metal balls or wire pieces.
I used Al-plastic HE for brizance redusing and overall power increasing otherwise the nuts from first layer has a very large deformation level.
Overall time waiting ~6sec.
I put door from old fridge on ~5-6m distance.
There was a few holes through the door.
But I think its a very dangerous and needs to use this thing from shelter.
Al - wire elements are also possible to increase safety. Al - elements has a large kinetic energy on short distance but it decreases very quickly
I found interesting fuse construction with inertia element- <a href="http://faq.guns.ru/rg.html" target="_blank">http://faq.guns.ru/rg.html</a>
This fuse significantly safe when grenade explodes from shock.
ENGINEERKILLER March 16th, 2002, 12:25 AM

NBK I have the submunition that we were talking about I still have to take it apart we will see how that goes . I won't be able to get to it till tuesday though.
I did some research on the pdm and it does infact use a breakwire on the triplines .
nbk2000 March 16th, 2002, 12:46 AM

AHHH....so I was right about the breakwire. That makes more sense than a tripwire given how it has to be functional on any terrain that SOF may operate in. Since it'd be
difficult to depend on the wire catching on anything that could provide enough resistance for the traditional style of tripwire.
I've been looking at magnetic infulence fuzing for the IPDM using Hall effect sensors. It's more expensive, but since an IPDM would be a highly specialized piece of equipment
that a person would only make a few of, cost isn't much of an issue but performance is. Especially since a breakwire system is probably beyond the manufacturing capability of
the average person.
For those not in the know, the IPDM ( Improvised Pursuit Denial Munition) is a device that you throw behind into the path of pursuing enemy. They get close enough to it, the
magnetic sensor detects the metal that everyone has on their body (keys, weapon, whatever), it jumps up and explodes in midair, spraying the pursuers with shrapnel, thus
ending the chase.
You can figure out the applications from there. :D
A modification that would be useful would be replaceable warheads. Instead of just a lethal frag ball, you could have a flash-bang, or smoke, or aerosol tear gas. This would
allow flexibility in the mission.

I've had to shift the split video files as I've just spent the last 2days resetting/reconfigging my CMOS/BIOS as it appear's someone that had seen the link to my http server on
here has had a go at changing the PID file.
"[Sat Mar 16 07:20:53 2002] [warn] pid file c:/program files/apache group/apache/
logs/httpd.pid overwritten -- Unclean shutdown of previous Apache run?
Apache/1.3.23 (Win32) running..."
Needless to say I have the offending IP, (gotta love my firewall even when it's not running it logs all inbound/outbound IP/TCP activitys.
I have submitted it to the correct people, and as of now the video files are on my ftp, if I have time I will upload them to _C's ftp as well.
Also NBK by SOF you mean Soldier Of Fortune?
Energy84 March 16th, 2002, 04:15 AM

I'm assuming the following:
SF - Special Forces
SOF - Special Operatives/Operations Forces
I think that's what they mean.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
(You are correct on both counts. Though SOF is "Special Operations Forces". NBK2000)
[ March 16, 2002, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Machiavelli March 16th, 2002, 01:59 PM

RTC, the files are on _C's ftp now. Since I didn't remember your name anymore there's no file describing the source with them but apart from that it's the original files from
your page.

Ok, thanks for uploading them.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > "Battle Plate"
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simply RED S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2002, 06:43 PM

I saw today some comandos training throwing battle stars, or ba ttle plates.
<a href="http://www.1stopselfdefensesecuritystore.com /stars.htm " target="_blank">http://
www.1stopselfdefensesecuritystore.com /stars.htm</a>
How i never before thought of that!
This is cheap, perfectly hided, avalable, non lawenforced and extremely harmful to people or anim als!
It is easily m a d e i n h o m e, you can m ake it heavy for m ore effect.
For m ore effect it will be good to add stoppers, like in fishhooks!
I'm g o n n a m a k e d o z e n s t o d a y . . .
Zyklon_B S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2002, 06:52 PM

Pretty cheap to buy too then make. But it seem s like quite a bit of practice learning how to throw these with any real accuracy.
In the hands of a well trained person I would think these to be quite effective weapons.
Harry S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 10:35 AM

Non-lawenforced? OK, gramm ar aside, I know personally of one jurisdiction where they are banned for carry. You get caught,
you going to be Sharif's hunny fo'while . Right h ere in the Land o f L a k e s , M i n n e s o t a . Y e s , c h e a p t o m a k e , c h e a p t o b u y , a f e w
im p o v e m ents would be good. Hey, if they're not regulated in your neighborhood, go ahead and use. Practice on the squirrels
in your back yard.
Even the surplus stores don't do stars around here. Swo rd canes, nunchaka, pen knives le ad knuckles, yes. Stars no. I've tried
the bought o nes (mail order com p a n i e s d o n ' t a s k m a n y q u e s t i o n s ) , c r a p . M a k e ' e m . U s e g o o d s t e el. Be a craftsman about it.
Make your stars the way you make a rocket display--do it right.
Harry
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 02:14 PM

R O K ( R e p u b l i c O f Korea) com m a n d o s u s e s t a r s m ade from 5 railroad spikes weld ed butts together. <im g border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Thin gs will im p a l e a t r e e a t 2 0 f e e t a c o u p l e i n c h e s d e e p .
And we ARE talking about thro wing stars here (AKA Ninja Death Doo-dads). :rolleyes: :p
W aste of tim e. They're not go ing to kill a person, only piss them off.
Asger S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 05:40 PM

...Unless you coat the edges with cyanide or the indian poison curare or some other effective poison. Well clothes m ight scrape
m ost of the chemical off but that could probably be taken care of by drilling sm a l l h o l e s c l o s e t o t h e e d g e s t o a c o m m o d a t e t h e
poison.
T h e K G B s u c c e e d e d i n a s a s s i n a t i o n s u s i n g v e r y s m all quantities of ricin.
zaibatsu S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 05:51 PM

True, but ricin isn't effective imm ediately, I think it causes death days later. Plus, I wouldn't want to be handling or even
k e e p i n g a n e x t r e m ely sharp piece of metal coated in poison on my person. At be st the small stars would be a distraction, a
very effective one if you hit in the face :)
probity S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 06:04 PM

Battle plates? haha. The ninja s did coat the edges of th eir shuriken with cyanide, they also used to crush apple seeds and
place them in their victim 's dinner. The seeds have a cyanogenic glycoside which turns into cyanide when digested.
Jhonbus S e p t e m b e r 1 6th, 2002, 07:39 PM

Just a note on the topic of ricin... There may soon be a vaccine against it. (New Scientist 1 4 s e p 2 0 0 2 p 2 2 )
The article describes it better than I co u l d , s o t a k e a l o o k f o r y o u r s e l v e s .
<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992783" target="_blank">Shield against assa ssin's poison</a>
Edit: goddam n, I bug ger up every single post in some way or another!
<sm a l l > [ S e p t e m b e r 1 6 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 4 0 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : J h o n b u s ] < / s m all>

T h o s e b a s t a r d w e a p o n s a r e e x t r e m ly usefull. Not only a re the legal m ost places, but are small, easily carried, and you can
learn to throw them really well in less than a day. (I know because I did.) C oating them in a posion such as cyanide i s a g o o d
idea , but I wouldnt advise it. You do tend to get little cuts on your fingers from prolonged use of them .
Asger S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2002, 04:14 AM

W e l l C h e m warrior. Sounds gre at that it does not take m ore train ing. Now if you have becom e e x p e rienced throwing them
m aybe the next step for you is to practice throwing them wearing gloves. Both to elim inate fingerprints and to protect you from
eventual poisons. Then you have that skill too. Just a thought.
Besides I have had an idea for a throwing tool for these battlestars. A little like som e, I think australian, in dians use to throw
extra power into their spears. I haven't recearched it yet (eg. google) as it is just a 'low state' idea for me (curiosity). It would
be something like a stick perhaps 40 cm long on wich the star can be m o u n t e d o n a l o c k i n g a r r a n g e m e n t . T h e l o c k c a n t h e n
relase the star from a trigger placed in the other end where you handle it. With a little practice you will activate the trigger and
release the star when the opposite end of the stick, carring the star is at its m a x i m u m s p e e d a p p . 1 m a b o v e y o u r h e a d ( o n e
armlength + one stick length.)
I think that could hit really hard - doing more penetration.
N B : P e r h a p s t h e s t i c k c o u l d e v e n h a v e s o m e m echanism providing the star with som e spin to stabilize it du ring flight.
<sm all>[ September 17, 2002, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Asger ]</sm all>

You're talking about an Atlatl thrower.
<a href="http://www.atlatl.com /mechanics.htm l" target="_blank">http://www.atlatl.com /m echanics.htm l</a>
That'd be an interesting way to throw a star and, if it worked, would GR EATLY increase the injury po tential since I don't know
too m a n y p e o p l e o u t s i d e o f m a j o r l e a g u e b a s e ball who can throw objects at over 100MPH.
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2002, 09:48 AM

Or m a y b e s o m e t y p e o f C o 2 p o w e r e d l a u n c h e r l i k e t h o s e o n e s t h a t s h o o t t h o s e f o a m rubber discs, and you could even add
spin to it this way, and any shot to the neck or face wou ld probably be fatal. And NBK what you said about the railroad stake
stars rem i n d e d m e a b o u t a r a ther dum b i s h m o vie called "Ghosts of Mars" where the posseced m in ers where chopping that
space cops to bits with what lo oked like circular saw blades.
Arkangel S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2002, 10:46 AM

woom era, also womera
n.
A hooked wooden stick used by Aboriginal peoples of Australia for hurling a spear or dart.
[Dharuk wam ara.]
Jhonbus S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2002, 01:02 PM

That's right, the Australian Aboriginal name for the device is a W oomera, the Aztecs called it an Atlatl. Must be a go od idea if
two cultures separated by thousands of miles o f antarctica both com e up with it.
T h e s o u t h a m e r i c a n s a l s o r e - a d o p t e d t h i s i d e a t o p r o t e c t t h e m s e l f f r o m spanish invaders - it gave their spears a great
armour-piercing capability.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > tyvek landmines?
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Hundminen January 13th , 2002, 05:12 AM

Has anybody fanticized about testing these?
W ould they hold out in the rain/nasty weather I wunder?Very sim ple,handy.
nbk2000 January 13th , 2002, 06:15 AM

2 posts to your credit, and both of them new to pics!
:rolleyes:
This is a Newbie NO-NO!
I'll leave the two topics open since they're innocuous en ough, but no more new topics till you've got a few dozen replies to
other peoples existing topics to your credit.
As to the question, I've used Tyvek for other things, and it'll keep out water easily. That IS what it's design ed for. Vapor
p a s s e s t h r o u gh, but liquids don't.
I'm a s s u m ing you're referring to the design in m y PDF?
Hundminen January 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 0 3 P M

Yes, in your pdf.
I feel this de sign to be quite promissing.
I don't wish to change the subject but I have a question to ask you:
I n " R a g n a r s b i g b o o k " I noticed the claymore he describes has the goods mounted in the concave of the pvc and not on the
convex which is funny to say the least.
Anyway, say one were to store those m ines for a while in pvc tub es, would it be safe to sim ply drown the m i n e s i n d e s e n s i t i z e r ?
nbk2000 January 14th , 2002, 12:09 AM

That's is the way they were intended to be stored, wet.
I think the reason ragner used the explosive on the inside of the curve, rather than the outside, is because being inside the
curve would protect the baggie with the ANNM from punctures.
But since we know how to m a k e s o l i d e x p l o s i v e s h e r e , t h e r e ' s n o r e a s o n f o r d o i n g s o .
I also noticed in ragners book that he didn't describe any terminal results of his "claymores", just that they m a d e a l o u d
e x p l o s i o n . W ell who gives a fuck about how lou d it is! W e want to know h ow m any penetra tors m ade it within the 6' kill zone,
what density, how mu ch tissue it penetrated, etc.
I p o s t e d m y idea for a m ore "conventional" m ine design on the FTP (Toe Popper MK I). I've cast wax blanks for testing the
self-righting and stacking. I'll have to wait till I get a drem el to carve a working wood model.
T h i s o n e h a s t h e a d v a n t a g e o f being a reusable design that can b e s a f e l y s t o r e d a n d h a n dled, and im m e d iately arm s.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Automatic or semi auto Gas rifle
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Boob Raider September 16th, 2002, 12:40 AM

A recent trip to homedepot sparked an idea ..... A tank of methyl acetylene and O2, along with a sort of a CO2 pistol design with a spark plug with a barrel. Do you get the
picture. What I mean is to have a CO2 pistol or rifle design and instead of CO2, an O2 balanced mix of methly acetylene and O2 is compressed by the cylinder's pressure and
ignited by the spark plug or something similar.
No need to buy ammo ... one could probably cast slugs at home and buy gas at any hardware store. And modifing the rifle to different configuirations shouldnt be difficult, like
for a sniper rifle increase the size of the pressure chamber and barrel calliber to .22 cal. So what do you think guys ?

Look around at yard sales, because I remember someone was making .35cal carbide powered rifles. My dad had one put gave rid of it because he couldn't find any carbide.

It's possible to make one, the design would be almost simular if not identical to a spudgun.
The only differance would be it has a rifle stock, and the sheer size of such I thing..

Fuel is not a problem ... methyl acetylene is available in 400 gm cylinders and the O2 in 40 gm cylinders same size though. They are about 12" long, so I am thinking they
would make the rear stock (butt), but the problem I am comming accross is the clip feed as I can't quite picture the slug entering the barrel without a leak. :( . Also would the
barrel of an air rifle work as I can't get my hands on anyother barrels ..... Its Canada ... I can't even possess (sp?) an air soft with a color marking on the tip of the barrel.
Pathetic Canadian laws. :mad:
zaibatsu September 16th, 2002, 03:42 AM

I think the Germans in WW2 looked at using acetylene-oxygen mixes in mortors. Didn't come to much, as they couldnt find a way to regulate it effectively, which shouldn't be
too much of a problem nowadays. But, a sniper rifle? How are you going to make sure you use exactly the same proportions, amount, etc each time, to end up with a good
enough consistency? Plus, if you're using an unrifled barrel, I'd say just use BP, its not that expensive in bulk and it would make it more portable.

I can get a rifled pellet gun barrel. What I meant was I can't get the one in which live rounds are fired ...... for that I need a licence and that would cost me about 400$ CD. As
fas as the consistancy goes ... I an not taking off more than 10 shots for sniper applications per tank or maybe less depending on the O2 consumed ... I haven't worked it out
yet. Also there would be a larger pressure chamber for the mix for extra power .... whose volume I would have to calculate to keep the slug sub-sonic. Anyone know how
much energy is transfered to the slug in a revolver as semis and autos absorb a bit of the energy in reloading (I am not too sure if that makes a difference in the muzzle
velocity).
Energy84 September 16th, 2002, 09:43 PM

Be careful if you're going to be compressing oxy-actylene mixes together. I've heard that if it is compressed too much (more than 15psi) that it can actually detonate on its
own.

I remember reading and article in an airgun magazine about this guy, who amongst other things, had knocked together an oxy-acetylene powered gun. It was either .22 or .30
and would put a slug through 2" wooden boards at either 100 or 200yds.
zaibatsu's point was that without very precise regulation, you will not be able to ensure a consistant power output shot to shot. Which makes the gun inaccurate as the
trajectory of the projectile will alter if it's muzzle velocity is changed. It certainly wouldn't be a sniping tool, but then not many improvised guns are.
I don't think a CO2 gun would work too well as you don't have a combustion chamber. What might be better would be to take a standard spring gun, remove the spring and
piston, block off the end of the compression chamber and install inlets for your oxygen and acetylene, as well as installing a spark plug. Projectile loading would be straight into
the breach as normal, no leaks or other problems there. The larger the calibre of the gun the better, as you'll likely impart more energy to the projectile, as it's heavier and has
a larger surface area for the pressure to push against. A switch to fire the spark plug would be installed in the trigger guard so that the existing trigger blade pushes against it,
or ditch the existing trigger and just push the swicth/button directly with your finger.
You'd have to really clean out the gun as the grease/oil in a high oxygen environment might cause an accidental firing.

Would compressing the fuel air mix (like in an internal combustion engine) increase power worth taking the pains (I think it will get too complicated with a piston or are there
any other methods) ? Also how much of the energy is transfered to the slug (in %) so I can keep the slugs sub-sonic. The reason I prefered .22 cal is that the pierce class II
armour quite easily and also a compressed air rifle (the single shot spring ones) barrel would be easy to acquire.

Perpahs you could rig up something like:
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eliteforum/rifle.gif" alt=" - " />
I don't know how you would connect it to the trigger mech though..

Military has been working on gas/oxygen propellants too, it's an advanced topic, it's not as easy as calculation grain burn speed etc.
When you test this, take security measures, many accidents has happen with acetylene. Especially dry gas.

If you are doing this I just saw a set of 5 electrical gas regulator/valves on e-bay yesterday for 12$. So If you unite them with a a couple 555's and a few other componets you
can get the exact same amounts of gas each time you fire. I also saw a circuit diagram for a gas regulator circuit on a spudgun site I can't remember it right now but I'll find it
and post the link later.

I wouldn't advise compression with oxy/acetylene mixes if you value your life, I think Acetylene doesn't like pressure too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> . Check this page for a diagram of the regulator a PCP uses to ensure consistent results <a href="http://www.airguns.net/reviews/regulators.html"
target="_blank">http://www.airguns.net/reviews/regulators.html</a> It would have to be set up in a slightly different way, IE you charge the chamber first using the
regulator and then fire.
Boob Raider September 17th, 2002, 01:36 PM
I was going to use needle valves for that porpose and a 2 ball valves to open gas flow. If I lead the tubes a little into the middle of the combustion chamber rather than
keeping them to the walls of the chamber ..... I am hoping it will reduce the back pressure on the non-return valves guarding the pressure/combustion chamber upon ignition
so they will last many more shots. :p
So to keep it sub-sonic I have to keep experimenting with it. Ooo I can't wait to get the damn chamber turned on a lathe and get the barrel .... I've got the valves, tubing, fuel
etc :D . Oh don't have any slugs though. Does anyone know how to cast FJP's at home with lead and copper sheet or its just not worth it.
Thanx for all the input though guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Compression would help, but I can't say how much of a boost it would give. There may be a simpler way of converting a spring gun *and* having compression.
You basically leave the gun as-is with the exception of someway to inject the oxygen and acetylene into the compression chmaber. So you cock the gun, load your projectile,
inject the gas and fire the gun as would normally. The stock trigger releases the piston, the spring drives it forwards, compresses the gas mix whilst rapidly heating it to auto-
ignition point - compression ignition, just like in a diesel engine.
Recoil may be pretty fierce and the spring/piston may be damaged after prolonged use. On the upside, the recoil will likely drive the piston back far enough for the sear to
engage, saving you from having to manually cock it for the next shot.

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with using Oxy/Acetylene?? Look- that stuff burns hot, that's why it is used in welding. WHY do you want to use that in a hand-
held spudgun type device? First of all, you risk barrel overheating if you fire more than 2 rounds per minute. This barrel overheating could lead to structural failure in different
parts of the gun, most likely at the joints. Why not just use the Butane/Propane/Oxygen mix? That is quite powerful, and doesn't burn nearly as hot as Oxy-Acetylene. If I
were you, I would work on maximizing the efficiency of the more common propellants rather than messing with some new, hot propellant.
One interesting idea I saw came from the Nazis' MG-42 Machine Gun. Notice at the muzzle there is a nozzle, like on a rocket. Why not try to employ that on your gun? This
could have been mentioned before in other threads, but I don't remember reading it. If you INSIST on using Oxy-Acetylene, try to employ some sort of cooling system on the
barrel.

I doubt that overheating would be a real problem, the ROF isn't exactly going to be high.
I don't think you'd be too succesful casting homemade projectiles, unless you could get hold of a commercial mould, or maybe a swaging kit, then you could do FMJs.
Heavy air rifle pellets would make an idea seal, but don't count on them staying subsonic. .22LR bullets would work if you can get them. 5.56mm, particularly FMJs would
probably be a bit too heavy/tough.

Sam like Anthony says overheating is not a problem as the gun will be firing bursts, whereas the torch uses a continious jet. Its like gunpowder firing rounds does heat the
barrel but not as much as a pile of gunpower deflagerating. Actually majority of the barrel heating comes from the projectile friction with the barrel. Propane and butane don't
pack somuch energy compared to acetylene. I think it due to the tripple bond. If you have ever used an oxy-C2H2 torch, you definately would have heard a sharp, loud sound
when turning off the torch, whereas you will never experience that in an oxy-propane torch. Thats one of my reasons. Thanx for your input though, you too Anthony ... It been
helpful.
Anthony the air rifle spring compressing the gas idea is really tough on the piston rod but not that much on the spring. I used to fire AP powered slugs ... the forced air was
enough to detonate the AP and the slug (made solid with solder) would have enough power to make about an inch deep creater in a brick at 10 mts. The recoil wouldn't cock
the spring but would ram the piston shaft hard enough to make it bend after about a 20 shots. I used less than 300 mg if AP.
MrSamosa September 18th, 2002, 04:26 AM

I remember reading off of some spudgun website, I don't remember which one it was, that if you are even spraying hairspray down the barrel for each shot that you risk the
barrel overheating and falling apart at the joints if you try firing more than 4 or 5 rounds per minute. They suggested not trying more than 3 rounds/min. We will have to see
with your acetylene gas and the reload times for it. Still, don't try being too adventurous.
And sorry for my bad terminology when it comes to firearms...but could you clarify yourself when you say "bullets" ? Are you referring to the bullet itself, or the bullet along
with the casing + gunpowder? Because if you are referring to the casing + gunpowder as well, then overheating the gun risks "barrel cookoff", i.e. the ammunition going off
prematurely.

Sam, I almost always use the word slug or projectile. I think what Anthony meant, was slugs too as I already have the propellant(shouldn't this be called projectant for
projectile ??) the O2/C2H2 (actually the fuel I'll be using is CH3-CHCH2, methyl acetylene, propyene). Hey Anthony, does the suffix LR mean light rifle ?
LR = Long Rifle (by Zaibatsu)
methyl acetylene is actually CH3-CCH - kingspaz
[ September 18, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
parabolic September 18th, 2002, 03:28 PM

well, i for one was also thinking of making a butane or propane oxygen mix, rifle. i work for a barrel company so i have no probs in making myself a rifled barrel, but the only
thing i would have prolems with is mixing the oxygen and butane/propane together, in order to charge the weapon, i have many pizo igniters on hand so internal spark ignition
would not be a problem, just mixing the gases together would be, i also have my boss on hand who is a balsitic expert, so he can help me with balistics and any dangers that i
may find., do pulse jet engines work on gas and oxygen, because there must be somthing that mixes them together for that to work surly?
i got planes for making a pulse jet engine, maybee i should have a look :) .
-----------------------
hes using propYne (CHCCH3) not propAne (C3H8)- kingspaz
[ September 18, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

Yeah, by "bullet" I mean just the projectile.

Hey Para, I was using needle valves preset to the O2/Fuel mix with 2 ball valves controling the main gas supply from the cylinders. Or do I have to use something fancy. Are
there any good valves in a furnace (for heating homes), or any other similar source.
man_o_brass October 2nd, 2002, 03:21 PM

I'm not familiar with "methyl acetylene" (my organic terminology is a bit rusty, but welding acetylene is VERY unstable at pressures over about 15 psi. If you tried to pressurize
it with an oxidizer, you'd get some unwanted fireworks. Anyhow, if the two are the same thing keep the pressure low. A buddy of mine ran a steel potato gun on oxy/
acetylene, and most of the time the spud wouldn't make it out the barrel in one peice. My point is that it has plenty of power at atmospheric pressure.
AfroFukinPyro October 20th, 2002, 07:23 PM

Oxy-acetylene shouldnt pose any big problems as long as you keep the acetylene WELL BELOW 15 PSI. As it has been stated, acetylene becomes unstable and
unpredictable at around 15 PSI unless it is stored in a special "sponge" cored tank containing a certain type of acid (I forget what kind). This is how the acetylene is stored for
welding at around 150 PSI I believe, but as soon as it is regulated out of the tank it is kept below 15 PSI.
If you decide to work with acetylene, keep it under 8 PSI just to be safe. There may be a safer fuel for this application though, one which is safer to use and possibly has more
explosive power, yet gives off less
Boob Raider October 20th, 2002, 07:49 PM

Actually ... like I mentioned earlier the gas is methyl acetylene aka Propyene, CH3-C=-C-H. That =- is a tripple bond. Hydrogen was another gas that packs a lot of punch but
is not available easily or generating it for this purpose will be a bitch.
MoToMaStR October 21st, 2002, 07:28 AM

Hey, thats a really good way to have the chamber explode and send that wooden stock splintering in hundreds of pieces towards your shoulder and neck. Personally,.... from
my experinces with oxy-acetylene torches from welding and near accidents Iv had,.. I definatly wouldnt fuck with it. listen to energy84 and zaibatsu dude. oxy-acetylene isnt
seomthing you really wanna play with. propane is much safer. Detonation occurs on its own around 15-22 psi,... like satated before and Believe me, air rifle barrels arent ment
to handle much more than about 600psi of compressed air/C2. So your likely to lose body parts while you mess with it. Im not saying dont do it,... but the mix compressed is
about as stable as shaken nitro-glycerin. =) Hope that helps make your decesion on building your contraption.
Anthony October 21st, 2002, 07:39 AM

Good general advice, but I beg to differ on your point about about the pressure handling abilities of the barrels. For a start, many barrels have a wall thickness greater than
5mm. Secondly, they are expected to handle 3000psi for millions of shots in the case of PCPs.
I just think they're a lot stronger than you give them credit for.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Exploding Batteries?
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nbk2000 January 15th, 2002, 10:36 AM

Found this little morsel on a flashlight forum.
The batteries being referred to are the lithium photo type.
"The CR123's were never designed for high current applications so be carefull in your mods. We have had some Violent rapid venting in some NASA applications.
Some people have asked what the little holes in the postitive nipple is for. The CR123's have relief valves built into them to maintain a safe internal pressure. If the current drain goes too high the relief valve might
not keep up.
If you store Duracells in a small plastic ziplock you might be able to smell the maganese off gassing through the vent. I have never looked at lithium AA. I do not know if they even have vent capability.
I have seen the results of DD lith's going explosive during thermal abuse testing. The explosion lifted up a 1200 pound thermal test stand and moved it about 2 feet. "
:eek:
More than half a ton lifted by a $5 battery?!
Might lithium batteries be the next weapon of the terrorists? :p
I've got one in my hand right now and it's only the size of the tip of my thumb. It also fits perfectly inside a shotgun grenade shell! Might that be useful?
Hmm..fill the battery with epoxy to prevent venting, attach an impact switch to short it out after it buries itself in the flesh of the target.
A few minutes of overheating from said shorting.....SPLAT! And no pesky illegal explosives involved.
vulture January 15th, 2002, 12:10 PM

Why do you think they always remove the batteries of the pacemakers of people who are being incinerated?
The explosive property of lithium batteries is that the fluid goes into gas phase above 50C and if a to high current is applied the gas, which is SOCl2 or something, will decompose, increasing the volume even
further! :eek:
BTW, if the battery explodes, the lithium electrodes are exposed to humidity and oxygen, don't they react vigirously then?
MacCleod January 15th, 2002, 01:01 PM

Several months ago I took apart an 'AA' lithium battery that was dead (out of curiosity).it contained a sheet of grey foil and a sheet of waxy moist paper wrapped together.As soon as I cut the case off the foil
bundle began to feel warm to the touch,and it began to smell funky (oxidizing?).Pretty sure it had two small vent holes on one end.
[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: MacCleod ]
Mr Cool January 15th, 2002, 04:03 PM

The warmth was probably due to the lithium reacting with moisture from your skin, although I'm not sure how much lithium a dead one would contain.
Would it not be better to connect two batteries together, so the +ve of one goes to the -ve of the other and vice versa?
Electrolytic caps are also quite fun when rapidly charged the wrong way... if you get a 50V, 160000 uF one that's 30cm tall by 10cm wide, a lot of people are gonna know about it when it ruptures...

A compact, high energy density pressure bottle "bomb" with built in initiator I guess.
In case anyone (like me) is wondering which battery it is, it's these ones:
http://images.aspencer1.com/images/cr123.jpg
Ctrl_C January 15th, 2002, 05:44 PM

sure batteries explode, for we've known this a long time. but the more important questions are:
Why is there a flashlight forum? Why was nbk at a flashlight forum?

:D
PYRO500 January 16th, 2002, 12:09 AM

I think a bit of creativity is needed to take full advantage of batterys as explosive devices, more than likely unless there is schrapnel around them they won't do much damage (well, in small numbers they wont)
but they might be useful in disguised maiming devices, after all who'd suspect batterys as dangerous, you could make some neat looking "toy" that everyone would want to play with and drop them in mail boxes/
peoples desks might ruin someones ability to type, also I wonder if they are strong enough to be used as blasting caps for moderately sensitive HE's I doubt it though.
TheBicher March 24th, 2002, 05:33 AM

I designed a simple 'bomb' that could be used with a lithium batery to create shrapnel and possibly a loud noise. I have not tested it or even tried making it yet. It is very basic and involves a lithium photo batery
encased in a metal casing with a switch on the side that can be turned on to short the two wires conected to the batery.
<img src="ftp://nbk:appletango@80.3.211.11/pbe.JPG" alt="" />
Obviously, the main advantage to a 'bomb' like this is the ease of obtaining what is needed to make it and the ease of making it.
I might try to make one in a few days, but first I want some opinions on it. I need to know if it will probably work, how loud/strong it will probably be, and how far/strong the shrapnel will fly. I'm guessing you could
get a big punch with a DD batery, but I will start off with the smallest I can find. Also, about how long is the wait untill the batery usually explodes?
[ March 24, 2002, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: TheBicher ]
nbk2000 March 24th, 2002, 09:35 AM

There is no such thing as a "DD" battery. There are "D" batteries, but I've never seen a lithium one.
Please read the original post (by me) and you'll see that it's a CR123 battery that did the exploding.
You've really made yourself look rather silly with your last post. Though can't fault you for enthusiasm.
TheBicher March 24th, 2002, 07:42 PM

Sorry about that, it was late last night when I posted that. I got an idea and drew a quick scetch in paint. I got confused from where you said <blockquote>quote:<hr />I have seen the results of DD lith's going explosive during thermal abuse testing. The explosion lifted up a 1200 pound thermal
test stand and moved it about 2 feet. "<hr /></blockquote>Still, would something like this be possible? Obviously it would have limited uses, but I'd like
to know if it would work and if I should even bother testing it.

The massive extra confinement provided by the added metal casing might too much for the battery to rupture. It might just do nothing, or more likely find an easier escape route - leaking out of the epoxy seals. If
you want a frag effect then it might be better to tape frag material like BBs, ball bearings or other shot to the battery. The metal pipe probably wouldn't frag into more than two or three pieces anyway.
Only other possible problem I can see, is make sure you use a chunky switch, it's the weakest link in the circuit. Likewise, use decent sized wire, equipment wire won't cut it. Even if it does burn through, thin and
especially, hot wire is going to seriously choke the flow of current - not conductive to making the battery burst.
Aaron-V2.0 March 24th, 2002, 11:01 PM

Does anyone have access to the old fashioned metal film canisters? Those are a little shorter than a Lithium AA and the lid screws on about a half inch. So if you were to place a AA Lith inside one and screw the cap
on half way so that it didnt seal you could carry the "device" because the to terminals couldnt make contact at once. And when you would set it just tighten the cap down making a connection with the metal
canister and possibly the cap will be airtight.
Just a thought.
BoB- March 25th, 2002, 02:45 AM

WTF? all the info I posted is gone...
Damn, anyways, what type of target are we talking about here? an exploding Lithium battery would cause extensive chemical burns on unprotected skin, getting lithium into an open wound would probably be fatal
if emergency care isnt given right away.
According to a chart on one of the pages I found on Google, that have now disappeared, it took a long time for there test batterys to become hot enough to rupture, and when they did only the valves broke.
Your looking at a good half hour before the battery becomes pressurized enough to rupture.
Polverone March 25th, 2002, 06:09 AM

I sometimes play a little mental game, coming up with ways ordinary and even apparently harmless objects could potentially be used to kill people. Once you get to things like pocket lint you have to be pretty
imaginative, which is why I like the game. This seems more of the same, only people are taking it rather literally.
A lithium battery is never going to pack a good amount of explosive power for its size. Even low density explosives offer more energy in the same space. It's never going to pack a good amount of explosive power
for its price. It may offer some potential because it is a metal shell that people already expect to contain chemicals, but as it is it's a crappy explosive device. I'd sooner waste my time with drain opener bombs
than I'd attempt to coax the world's saddest explosions from the most expensive batteries on the shelf.
I don't doubt that having a lithium battery rupture close at hand would be unsettling and quite likely injurious, but I doubt it would be an effective means of killing or sabotaging all but the weakest targets. BoB-, on
what basis do you assert that "getting lithium into an open wound would probably be fatal if emergency care isnt given right away"? Lithium is neurotoxic but not acutely so. The victim would no doubt suffer both
chemical and thermal burns, but I am doubtful that the victim would suffer systemic poisoning.
I know this is the improvised weapons section, I just didn't know so many people look to Rube Goldberg for inspiration. I'm sure the original post was intended to provoke curiosity and perhaps some
experimentation. But really, if you want to do damage with lithium batteries, swing them in the end of a sock.
nbk2000 March 25th, 2002, 10:53 AM

It was to provoke some "out of the box" thinking that I posted this topic. Exploding batteries aren't something most (or any) security people would be thinking to be possible, but it obviously is.
Once you've settled into the "It's impossible!" way of thinking, you're washed up as a pyro or a criminal.
Only be constantly thinking of new, various, and different ways and means of doing things do you keep the engine of creation, your imagination, fueled and running.
I was once accussed (Yes! Accussed!) by a teacher of being "too imaginative. Lord forbid I should have been broken by the state indoctrination facilities into a docile sheeple ready to live and die for the glory and
honor of the State. :mad:
And if you can kill with pocket lint, you're one bad ass motherfucker! :D
PYRO500 March 25th, 2002, 04:35 PM

I think the most best weapon that can be carried anywhere is a common soda can, what did the "terroists" carry on the plane? box cutters, little razorblade like things, have you ever ripped a coke can in half?
same idea, get a few volunteers to start shreding the passengers/crew and any piolit would let you in. BTW if you injected shredded pocket lint in water into someones veins they would reject it possibly causing
death, if it didn't clog their cappilaries first
Polverone March 25th, 2002, 05:03 PM

Well sure you wanted to provoke thought, and you did. But this whole thread seemed to be drifting toward some sort of 1980s BBS text phile hell. Certainly hold on to your ingenuity and imagination. If you've lost
those you might as well be dead, pyro pursuits aside.
To contribute more directly to the topic at hand: the battery that exploded and lifted up a test stand did so during "thermal abuse testing." Did it generate its heat just from short circuiting or was it subjected to
external heating? It's possible they were testing the batteries to see what sort of hazard they posed when the immediate environment became very hot. Many sealed items will generate an impressive bang/
amount of energy when heated hot enough to rupture.
PYRO500: I've torn soda cans apart before, and you do get a sharp edge, but it has no strength. I've seen at least one other person (who was alarmed) suggest that soda cans could be used as weapons on flights,
but I don't think you'd be able to do much damage unless you had an immobilized victim. The edge you get is hard pressed to cut cloth with. It might provide a stronger edge if you were able to tear a strip of metal
and apply tension along the long axis, like it were the blade in a bow saw. It seems you could do better with, say, a length of fine piano wire. Where to conceal it? Inside headphone leads, computer cables, any
sheath where people already expect metal. Slice the insulation back and the wire can easily be retrieved.
xoo1246 March 26th, 2002, 08:06 AM

Ahhh, the piano wire, the choise of a true professional. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
You could use to handles too.
Demolition March 26th, 2002, 08:26 AM

Not quite on topic but while I was reading over this thread I remembered a post a few months back about one of our members going to visit a relative in jail.IIRC he was taking something containing batteries in to
give to his relative.The warden? told him (the forum member) that they werent allowed to have batteries because they make 'bombs' out of them.
Maybe its a similar sort of device.
Zambosan March 26th, 2002, 01:25 PM

...or maybe just an uneducated and paranoid warden. Just a thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
PYRO500 March 26th, 2002, 03:36 PM

Ah, but you see when you rip the can in half you hold the two sides together with the can in your palm, with some practice you'll have a serious weapon on your hands, as for piano wire I think it's to stiff to conceal,
I would get my hands on something called a gigly saw, it is two handles with a wire saw connecting them, they are used to cut bone, some of the thinner ones would really tear some skin,

Well back to blowing up batteries ..... since I can get get my hands on virtually any type of commonly used spent batteries and in any quantity too, I have tried blowing them up by shorting them, tossing them in
fire etc .... nothing works except they leak quite effictively ..... mind you I haven't mistreated lithiums as I open them up to get the foils but I need to melt them down to make a chunk, any suggestions. Although
as far as blowing up is concerned ... I don't see a higher chance of lithiums blowing up over any other types. Now NiMH is a different story .... even if they leak in a fire they would probably blow up because of the
H2 gas. Also Ni/Cd's make good weapons if tossed in a fire as they would give off Cd vapors. Oh also I can't melt the damn Cd from the battery. It just fumes. Any suggestions ?
One thing .... the AAA's and the thin cells in a 9V, casings make good detonator casings.
Oh ... just thought of it ... do cell phone batteries have valves in them too as they don't exceed a certain current demand, unless we get ahold of them, and they are supposed to be NiMH or Li ion.
[ September 15, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]
kanbayat September 21st, 2002, 11:28 PM

while waiting for a bob segar concert in 1974..my battery went dead in my ford ltd..we attempted to jump it with my friends van..it was dark out..and BOOM..the batery exploded while I had my face within one
foot of the battery..trying to see if the terminals were connected ..I got some shit in my eye..it made a rather loud thump..and I washed my eye out with water..we went to the concert and suffered no ill effects
to this day..and that was acid..so in closing..I think a little more research is needed on small batterys to see how lethal they may be..peace ppl..lol

Coming back to the warden thing,
I think they won't alow batteries because as mentioned before they can be stuffed into socks or stuck don't someone's throught. (not a bad idea really :D )
Also I think the warden also heard stories about exploding batteries and just got jumpy at the though of an inmate with a bomb.
Magas November 8th, 2002, 08:16 AM

I wonder what would hapen if you used a magnesium battery?
Anthony November 8th, 2002, 09:40 AM

A battery in a sock is battery in a sock...
If you meant will it explode if shorted? I doubt it as it isn't powerful enough.
Jacks Complete July 24th, 2005, 09:15 AM

Re-opening this, three years on.
There are now many advisories by manufacturers regarding Lithium battery failure. These things are high energy density sources, and so, if made to dump all the energy at once, bad/good/loud things easily
happen.
First off, you get them wet, and the lithium reacts, creating heat and Hydrogen, which will burn and explode very easily.
Secondly, you short them. They don't like being shorted, and they get hot, vent hydrogen gas, and sometimes explode. Most Lithium batteries are actually marked to say as much!
On rapid (normal) discharge, they can get hot enough to melt plastic and start fires - just take a look at an instruction manual for anything with a lithium battery, and you will see three pages of warnings about the
battery.
Hazards of Lithium Batteries
There are some worries concerning the safety of certain lithium batteries, particularly the SO2 and thionyl chloride batteries containing less than about 0.5 g of lithium that are used in watches, cameras, etc.
Tight restrictions are placed on how these batteries may be carried on cargo flights. The safe disposal of partially discharged batteries is also a major concern: bulk users are urged to negotiate with a suitable
waste-disposal contractor to take back used batteries for safe disposal. The US Environmental Protection Agency has ruled that lithium-sulfur di batteries are non-hazardous if fully discharged to deplete the
reactive components to low levels.
All US military multi-cell lithium batteries now incorporate a discharge resistor which can be switched on when the battery is about to be discarded (called the complete discharge device, CDD). This will complete
the discharging of the battery in about five days and batteries should be kept for this time before being dumped. Unfortunately, there have been a few incidents in the US Army in which batteries have exploded
during, or at the end of complete discharging. These incidents are presently being investigated in order to see why they occurred. It is thought that some of the cells may have been faulty, rather than that there is
a general problem. The usage of such batteries in the USA is up to 1000 times that in CF, so the probability of an incident in the CF is low and none has occurred.
High-power lithium cells need to be carefully ed to ensure safe operation. For example, if a cell is short-circuited, the large current will cause internal overheating, a rise in pressure and the cell could explosively
rupture. In general, battery manufacturers do not like to use the word "explode" and have invented other terms. One interesting euphemism is "spontaneous disassembly" or "decrimpling". All except low-rate
cells should incorporate safety vents to avoid a dangerous build up of internal pressure. These vents are especially ed weak points in the steel can, which rupture at a particular internal pressure. Such vents are
not resealable, so the battery is then unserviceable (a safety report may require to be filled out and the battery sent away for analysis).
Electrical fuses and, frequently, thermal switches are fitted to avoid high cell internal temperatures. Blocking diodes are usually included to prevent charging. In a series-connected string of cells, one weak cell
may have current forced through it by the other cells until its voltage reverses. Shunt diodes may be connected across cells (i.e. in parallel) to prevent the reverse voltage from reaching dangerous levels. Shunt
diodes are recommended for 5 or more lithium-sulfur dioxide cells in series.
The load voltage of a lithium cell usually varies very little during discharging. Although this appears to be ideal, it does make it difficult to tell how much capacity remains in a partially discharged cell. It may be
necessary to record the service history of each battery to give some indication of the capacity used. There is nevertheless a tendency to throw away perfectly good, partially used batteries simply because their
state of charge cannot easily be ascertained. Researchers are investigating ways of cheaply estimating the residual charge.
I also found this link http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/PrimBatt/li-explosion.htm to a report on the same site, of a battery explosion. Quite a mess.
Apparently, most modern Li batts now have a weakened steel cell so that it will vent through that in case of rupture. Obviously, this area could be reinforced with multiple wraps of glassfibre tape, to massively
increase the failure pressure.
Jacks Complete July 24th, 2005, 09:15 AM

Re-opening this, three years on.
There are now many advisories by manufacturers regarding Lithium battery failure. These things are high energy density sources, and so, if made to dump all the energy at once, bad/good/loud things easily
happen.
First off, you get them wet, and the lithium reacts, creating heat and Hydrogen, which will burn and explode very easily.
Secondly, you short them. They don't like being shorted, and they get hot, vent hydrogen gas, and sometimes explode. Most Lithium batteries are actually marked to say as much!
On rapid (normal) discharge, they can get hot enough to melt plastic and start fires - just take a look at an instruction manual for anything with a lithium battery, and you will see three pages of warnings about the
battery.
Hazards of Lithium Batteries
There are some worries concerning the safety of certain lithium batteries, particularly the SO2 and thionyl chloride batteries containing less than about 0.5 g of lithium that are used in watches, cameras, etc.
Tight restrictions are placed on how these batteries may be carried on cargo flights. The safe disposal of partially discharged batteries is also a major concern: bulk users are urged to negotiate with a suitable
waste-disposal contractor to take back used batteries for safe disposal. The US Environmental Protection Agency has ruled that lithium-sulfur di batteries are non-hazardous if fully discharged to deplete the
reactive components to low levels.
All US military multi-cell lithium batteries now incorporate a discharge resistor which can be switched on when the battery is about to be discarded (called the complete discharge device, CDD). This will complete
the discharging of the battery in about five days and batteries should be kept for this time before being dumped. Unfortunately, there have been a few incidents in the US Army in which batteries have exploded
during, or at the end of complete discharging. These incidents are presently being investigated in order to see why they occurred. It is thought that some of the cells may have been faulty, rather than that there is
a general problem. The usage of such batteries in the USA is up to 1000 times that in CF, so the probability of an incident in the CF is low and none has occurred.
High-power lithium cells need to be carefully ed to ensure safe operation. For example, if a cell is short-circuited, the large current will cause internal overheating, a rise in pressure and the cell could explosively
rupture. In general, battery manufacturers do not like to use the word "explode" and have invented other terms. One interesting euphemism is "spontaneous disassembly" or "decrimpling". All except low-rate
cells should incorporate safety vents to avoid a dangerous build up of internal pressure. These vents are especially ed weak points in the steel can, which rupture at a particular internal pressure. Such vents are
not resealable, so the battery is then unserviceable (a safety report may require to be filled out and the battery sent away for analysis).
Electrical fuses and, frequently, thermal switches are fitted to avoid high cell internal temperatures. Blocking diodes are usually included to prevent charging. In a series-connected string of cells, one weak cell
may have current forced through it by the other cells until its voltage reverses. Shunt diodes may be connected across cells (i.e. in parallel) to prevent the reverse voltage from reaching dangerous levels. Shunt
diodes are recommended for 5 or more lithium-sulfur dioxide cells in series.
The load voltage of a lithium cell usually varies very little during discharging. Although this appears to be ideal, it does make it difficult to tell how much capacity remains in a partially discharged cell. It may be
necessary to record the service history of each battery to give some indication of the capacity used. There is nevertheless a tendency to throw away perfectly good, partially used batteries simply because their
state of charge cannot easily be ascertained. Researchers are investigating ways of cheaply estimating the residual charge.
I also found this link http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/PrimBatt/li-explosion.htm to a report on the same site, of a battery explosion. Quite a mess.
Apparently, most modern Li batts now have a weakened steel cell so that it will vent through that in case of rupture. Obviously, this area could be reinforced with multiple wraps of glassfibre tape, to massively
increase the failure pressure.
THErAPIST July 25th, 2005, 02:41 AM

At work a couple months ago (a fireworks store) we got a fax from the corporate office. The body of this fax stated that if we had cell phones wth non stock batteries, or that if we had batteries made for japanese or
european cell phones on our american cell phones that we weren't allowed to bring them inside the building anymore. The reason for this is that foreign style cell phone batteries would sometimes spontaneously
discharge if on american style phones because they were different voltages or something such as that and the batteries would either rupture and spew their contents, or they would explode.
Supposedly the above senario happened at a ware house, the battery blew up, and it caught a few cases of fireworks on fire. Now I don't know the validity of that, but it still stands as truth that we got a fax telling
us about all of that. Damned paranoid fireworks people..
THErAPIST July 25th, 2005, 02:41 AM

At work a couple months ago (a fireworks store) we got a fax from the corporate office. The body of this fax stated that if we had cell phones wth non stock batteries, or that if we had batteries made for japanese or
european cell phones on our american cell phones that we weren't allowed to bring them inside the building anymore. The reason for this is that foreign style cell phone batteries would sometimes spontaneously
discharge if on american style phones because they were different voltages or something such as that and the batteries would either rupture and spew their contents, or they would explode.
Supposedly the above senario happened at a ware house, the battery blew up, and it caught a few cases of fireworks on fire. Now I don't know the validity of that, but it still stands as truth that we got a fax telling
us about all of that. Damned paranoid fireworks people..

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Pneumatic cannon.
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View Full Version : Pneumatic cannon.
BaDSeeD March 13th, 2002, 02:29 AM

How ya doin guys. I've been away for quite a long time, but I have some free time tonight, and thought I'd look around.
Anyhow guys I am interested in making a pneumatic cannon specifically for playing splatball, but it has other options, simply whatever ammo you decide to put in it.
I was looking around a few different sites and came across this one from tippman.
<a href="http://www.tippmannexplosives.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tippmannexplosives.com/</a>
It has a hell of a lot of cool shit for anyone interested in paintball, unfortunatly, unless your military, or law enforcement, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!
Really pisses me off.

Anyway I want to build the grenade launcher they have listed there.
<a href="http://www.tippmannexplosives.com/newpages/grenade_launchers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tippmannexplosives.com/newpages/

grenade_launchers.htm</a>
Most of it seems pretty simple except for the valve assembly. Does anyone know of a valve that would be suitable for something like this? Even an electrically operated valve
would be suitable, but it has to be able to release a large volume of gas (co2) quickly enough to get a decent speed out of the projectile.
Any help would be appreciated.
By the way, I havn't been around for a while so I'm not sure if this still falls under improvised weapons or if it should be in another section. So be gentle NBK if I made a
mistake.
Bignutsami March 13th, 2002, 06:39 AM

Hi..
Sorry, your links you gave keep timing out for me so i cant comment on them.
<a href="http://www.valuelinx.net/~dthames/spudguns.htm" target="_blank">http://www.valuelinx.net/~dthames/spudguns.htm</a>
Gives a design for a piston type valve that is suposedly one of the fastest. It also has some great mpegs to download.
You could always just use a solinoid valve for electrical firing which is far easier then the piston.
<a href="http://www26.brinkster.com/fullauto/index.html" target="_blank">http://www26.brinkster.com/fullauto/index.html</a>
has a design for an auto using solinoid valves. If you fitted this to a regulater feeding CO2 you would end up with a serious rapid fire grenade launcher, though a regulator aint
fast enough for full auto it will allow far more shots at consistant pressure.
Im not sure if solinoid valves make for a more powerful gun then a ball-valve, but electrical firing wont screw up your aim when you fire it.

They time out for me as well..
xoo1246 March 13th, 2002, 01:49 PM

<a href="http://www.tippmannordnance.com/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.tippmannordnance.com/index.htm</a>
BaDSeeD March 13th, 2002, 02:26 PM

I'll have to look into those types of valves.
The links seem to work fone for me, but i am also on a cable... maybe thats the difference.
Anyhow look at the crap on that site if you have a chance, who would have thought someone would mke a full size howeitzer for paintball!!!

Ok I looked at those web pages, and I was hoping for some kind of valve that I could just buy. I'm going to be making everything else for it, I was hoping to not have to
make the valve as well.
As a last resort I WILL make one, but I'd prefer not to.
Money isn't a probelm with all the overtime I have been putting in lately. And it would sure save time to be able to buy the valve.

Don't know if it's what you are looking for, but if you want a bought solution a SGTC Supah Valve might be suitable:
<a href="http://www.spudtech.com/supahvalveprod.html" target="_blank">http://www.spudtech.com/supahvalveprod.html</a>
Energy84 March 14th, 2002, 11:29 PM

Has anyone got the SupahValve? I'd really like to know how it works because I don't exactly have that much cash to spend on a starch abuser but I do have access to lathes
and milling machines :)
Photos of the inner workings are much appreciated.

Wow, that valve looks good for other applications, but its friggin huge.
I'm looking for something a lot smaller that i could use in a launcher that would be mounted under the barrel. I'm looking specifically for a valve that would be mounted to a
piece of 2.5 inch pvc pipe, with a barrel length of about 10 or 12 inches. I want that to be able to launch a paint filled ballon from a cardboard sabot at a velocity between 150
to 300 fps. Somewhere around 200 fps would be ideal. Looks like I'm going to have to make the damned thing after all. Problem is that I don't know much about diaphram
and piston valves really to make one of my own. I have seen some information on how they work, but it looks like pistons require a fair amount of travel before the pressure
is released, so that wouldnt work too well with a trigger for example, and diaphram valves i simply dont understand well enough (yet) to make one.
Thats why i wanted to skip this process and just buy one.
Anyway thanks for the info so far guys. I'll keep checking here to see if anyone has more info to offer.

The commonly used 1" sprinkler valves work use a diaphram valve. The solenoid is simply used to break a vacuum allowing the diaphram to move and let the air or water
flow. You don't have to use the solenoid if you don't want an electrical system, there's a manual lever built into the valves. Or, better for a trigger setup, screw a pipe nipple
into where the solenoid fits (it's threaded) and run a piece of thin bore flexible hose to a push-button type valve which is either your trigger or is activated by the trigger. It just
needs to vent the space above the diaphram to the atmosphere to activate the valve.

Thanks Anthony. I had read somewhere that someone had used a valve like that for potato guns or some shit before. I just wasn't sure how much pressure one of them could
take and what kind of velocity I could expect out of a valve like that.
Prodigy45 March 17th, 2002, 12:09 PM

The best plans i've seen for a potato launcher is this one:
<a href="http://members.aol.com/sph911/spud/pneumatic.html" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/sph911/spud/pneumatic.html</a>
The sniper rifle one, but be ready to invest some money in it because when all is said and done it' woukd cost over $100.

Hey Anthony I found a site that had some information and pricing on sprinkler valves.
It also poses a new question. Anyhow the site is here..
<a href="http://store.professionalsupply.com/cgi-bin/wfp55389.storefront/3c9502b8013b53c82755d8f5a506064e/Catalog/1042" target="_blank">http://
store.professionalsupply.com/cgi-bin/wfp55389.storefront/3c9502b8013b53c82755d8f5a506064e/Catalog/1042</a>
It says that some of the valves are specifically designed to close slowly to avoid what they call "water hammer" which I am fairly certain is just the pressure spiking on the
pipes if it is shut off real fast. Anyhow if I were to use a "slow closing" valve in this kind of application, odds are I'd empty my air supply in one shot.
Does anyone know anything about these valves? It dosn't specify that the smaller valves have this feature, but I don't know that for sure. We got a farmer Brown around here
that might know something about these valves?

Well before even starting I've come to the conclusion that this thing is going to be too big and heavy to mount under the barrel. I think I'll make it as a seperate gun like an M-
79. No point in throwing off my aim and handling of my gun by putting this big heavy thing on it.

that supah valve is awesome...too bad it costs $100. that site also has rifled barrels that claim 50% greater accuracy. i think i may soon order the supah valve with pnuematic
trigger actuation, a 4 foot rifled barrel, and a bbq ignitor for a regular spud gun.

I have to admit that I have no idea how fast the valves close, I've only ever used them to dump air. To be honest, I'm not sure that any/many solenoid valves available would
be capable of opening fully and closing again quickly enough to give multiple, decent pressure shots from a reservior. If you don't have a seperate reservior and shot chamber
you might need a spring loaded manual valve activated by a falling hammer or other kind of spring propelled mass to momentarily knock the valve open and release a blaat of
air.
Not sure if it will be of help but I've got some info on my delapidated website about a potato gun I made with one of these sprinkler valves:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/plastic_rifle.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/plastic_rifle.htm</a>
BoB- March 23rd, 2002, 04:14 AM

Here are a couple of cannons designed for paintball;
<img src="http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/MVC-082S.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/BECC.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/BECC.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/cannon1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/cannon1.jpg</a>

<a href="http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/BECC2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pukindogspaintball.com/cannons/BECC2.htm</a>
The breaches are shit, but they both use Co2 for constant pressure, just dont forget the safety release valve and you could fire dozens and dozens of grenades.
PYRO500 March 24th, 2002, 01:52 AM

I think that valve is just a piston valve, there's an air space at the top and there's a piston that allows air to flow through when the piston has traveled all the way, opening a
valve to the top relieves pressure in the chamber thus making the piston move letting gas escape.
PYRO500 March 26th, 2002, 03:35 PM

After some carefull searching I found a place with plans for the "supah" valve check this page out:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jr_cross00/cannon.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jr_cross00/cannon.html</a>
it is fairly simple design, when I get some cash expect pics.

bastard...i just ordered a supah valve. oh well...not my money. my gun is 6 feet long and weighs 15 pounds. it is very similar to the one shown <a href="http://
www.spudtech.com/9302.html" target="_blank">here.</a> I am waiting for the valve as we speak. I still need another 2" union (I modified the design to be able to take the
valve off easily) and it will be done. I will post pics when it is fully put together.

Sweet! Thanks pyro! looks like I know what I'm doing in shop class now :D

I just made my cannon with my SGTC Supah valve, but it leaks. It will still shoot a potato really high and far...i mean, i'm tempted to take out the annoying low flying medical
helicopters that fly over my house with this thing...it could.
the problem is that there is a 4" dia 26" long air chamber that the barrel goes through. The barrel is completely independent of the chamber except the fact that it goes through
the chamber. The chamber needs to seal on both ends with the barrel going through the middle. Right now I have a 4" x 2" bushing that I sanded the pipe stop out of with a
dremel. Apparently it didn't seal. I need a way to get it to seal on a new one without using the dremel to jerry rig something together. I don't know much about what kinds of
pvc parts are available but if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.
[ March 30, 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]
Spudgunner March 30th, 2002, 04:13 PM
Wow, I haven't posted on here in forever. Anyway, my suggestion (I just made it up, it may or may not work) is to find the parts that are leaking first. Then, take some slivers
of PVC and dissolve them in the PVC glue (since that is how it works, by dissolving the PVC). Then, if you can, paint on the glue/PVC mix onto the parts that are leaking, and it
might leave PVC in the cracks that aren't sealed. I don't know whether this works or not (in fact, I don't know if you can even tell what I am saying), but it is worth a try.
Spudgunner

I understand and that is an excellent idea. I will try it tonight.
btw, I can shoot potatoes an estimated 700ft high.
AcridSmoke March 30th, 2002, 08:02 PM

I've made a couple of cannon myself, and have never used a supah-valve. At 80 PSI, we usually achieve a 400 yard shot with a potato with both solenoid and ball valve
cannon. We're probably going to build an exhaust valve-based launcher. Specifically what PSI are you using with your supah-valve for the 700 ft shots?
Ctrl_C March 31st, 2002, 02:06 PM

hard to say. it leaks and I don't have a guage but the air compressor is pumping 120psi in there. This shot was straight up, not angled.
EDIT:
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" target="_blank">Spudgun</a>
[ March 31, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]
RTC March 31st, 2002, 05:54 PM

Nice car..
Ctrl_C March 31st, 2002, 07:56 PM

not mine but thanks. i took it like that to get the truck in the picture for the bunker thread.
AcridSmoke April 1st, 2002, 12:05 AM

Well, I finished a fully automatic marble gun of my own design with a 50 round clip... Lovely...
That figure of my distance was at a 45 degree angle. What's yours? My current project is a breech-action paintball shooter.
The automatic uses a system where the marble is struck with extreme force from a piston in the rear. It shoots a good 150 feet at a slightly above flat angle, having a rate of
fire around 1000 RPM. Fun stuff.
[ March 31, 2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: AcridSmoke ]
PYRO500 April 1st, 2002, 12:29 AM

Well then post pictures plans or something similar so we can see your disign/device in action. I really doubt you got a 1000 RPM fire rate, that is faster than marbles will fall
from a hopper and it is faster than most machine gun manufactuers can get their guns to fire.
BoB- April 1st, 2002, 05:49 AM

Sorry to go OT, I got here late.
Ctrl-C
if it still leaks, I'd try ordinary hotglue (high-temp), Its amazing how much pressure hotglue will take. Provided you make a nice uniform seal it should hold. Anthony did this on
his page here;
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/1_5_abs_combustion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/1_5_abs_combustion.htm</a>
Ctrl_C April 1st, 2002, 03:10 PM

Well, I don't need to worry about leaks now because it just exploded. I lost a 2" male threaded coupling, a 2" union, and 2 elbows.
It deafened me for 2 mins and the plastic cut my neck and arm and something hit my thigh and scraped it up.
I'll go get new parts maybe tonight. It looks like the glue joint between the pipe coming off the T and the street elbow failed. The pressure escaping caused it to leverage off
the male coupling, breaking it.
RTC April 1st, 2002, 03:33 PM

Nasty, hope ya heal well.
Anthony April 1st, 2002, 04:04 PM

Scary considering your plastic plumbing in the US is at least twice as thick as the stuff here, yours is pressure rated too. /me wonders why he is still alive...
Leaks are a bastard, hotglue can help, but it doesn't seem to work too good for sealing a seam, the pressure just seems to lift it slightly and squeeze around the join.
Sometimes it's better just to say "fuck it", hack off the joint and slap a new one on, even if it does make your gun shorter than it should have been.
Mr Cool April 1st, 2002, 05:51 PM

Haha, I love that attitude Ctrl_C -
"It just exploded and nearly killed me. I'll go get parts for a new one tonight."
:) :)
AcridSmoke April 1st, 2002, 10:56 PM

Ow. Heal up. I've only had one of my creations explode ("The Big Cow"). It was an over-under style launcher. The 180-degree turnaround at the back blew up into three parts
and most of the gun flew backwards... My friend was next to me at the time. It was really loud, but no one got hurt at all. I just got kind of mad at myself for forgetting to put
the brace between top and bottom for stability so I could specifically prohibit what had just happened.
My automatic fires 960 rpm, I am dead serious. We use a spring-fed magazine, so the speed of gravity is no problem. The piece that hits the marble to propel it is made of
hard and thick plastic, yet it remains at a small weight, so the rate of fire is insane. It's only ever jammed once, I believe, and it cleared up very quickly. I'll try and get a link
out to an animation I just finished of it as soon as possible.
[ April 01, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: AcridSmoke ]
Bignutsami April 2nd, 2002, 02:12 AM

_C:
What class pipe are you using?
Did you make sure your using the pressure glue, not the standard stuff.
Pictures of pieces maybe ??? :)
Anthony:
England would probably use the same system as Australia wouldnt it, the PN rated system. Im sure there would be pressure rated pipe there somewhere.
The American system isnt rated on pressure rather on wall thickness, whereeas the PN systen is rated on pressure in Bars (PN12 = 12 Bar = approx 150psi).
Its kinda easier to rig the system up to be capable of the same pressure with the PN rated stuff, but the Americans have sch80 and sch120 which hold more pressure then ours,
Our system goes into polyethylene pipe after the pressure goes above 18bar (250psi).
Ctrl_C April 2nd, 2002, 02:28 AM

i was using schedule 40 rated to 220 psi i think. the glue joint failed however. i picked up some "heavy duty" pvc glue and the necessary parts and put it together approx 3
hours ago. I will wait until at least morning and possibly tomorrow night until I repressurize it.
BoB- April 2nd, 2002, 05:19 AM

I had several PVC spudguns blow up on me, so now I only use empty high pressure gas cylinders. You can pick up old fire extinquishers at the dump, grab a few of them
incase one leaks, they may not be safe enough to hold 250psi for several years anymore, but I've shot sparkplugs at over 210psi using a fire extinguisher as a chamber. And
because everything screws together, if you use a mile or so of PTFE tape, it will never leak on you. But I hear those 'Supah valves have a low maximum psi...
Anthony April 2nd, 2002, 07:56 AM

You can get pressure rated PVC/ABS pipe/fittings in the UK but it's for specialist applications and not used for regular plumbing, anything holding pressure is either copper or
steel/iron. The stuff I use is not intened to hold any pressure, well maybe that of a few feet of water, but that's about it, holds up well at 250psi though...
Ctrl_C April 2nd, 2002, 02:28 PM

I rebuilt it last night, let the glue set up about 14 hours, and fired it about a half hour ago. Everything seems good. I had it up to 110 psi, 10 more than the valve is rated for. I
hit a wheelburrow at 40 yards. It deted it badly and the power hitting it was incredible. My new favorite projectile is caulking tubes. They fit very well and are front heavy so
they hit the ground tip first and bury themselves halfway into the soft dirt. It's all set up right now to be able to fire in a couple seconds notice of a heli flying over. I hate the
heli's...they fly at about 400 feet (well within the reach of my newly acquired "anti-aircraft gun") and are loud as hell, shaking my house. Oh great fun today, beautiful day
here too...great for heli shooting. :)
EDIT: After a week or so of testing: excellent results. Potato has an estimated range of .25mi laterally, 700 feet vertically at 45*. Potatoes dent 1mm aluminum 6" off center
at 40 yards. New favorite projectile: empty plastic caulking tubes. Shoot very fast and straight, good fit. Put one through 3/4" Oriental Strand Board (similar to plywood) at 70
yards. VERY impressive.
Also received full 5# CO2 bottle for portable air source. Will hook up some time this week.
[ April 09, 2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > C ELL PHONE GUN!
Log in
View Full Version : CELL PHONE GUN!
BaD SeeD August 8th, 2001, 02:26 AM

I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n ything like this before. It's awesome! Sorry I have no other inform ation on th is... just the video. If
anyone knows ANYTHING about this... post it!
Here's the link.
http://64.62.53.76/adult_cdn/01048ABAAMgAAAAcDla.yF3PwuqoQ2RhzUi01rGFMVoSXZT_FK GWnSUGB_l2fpBiBI2iEJRzyCCMg/
cj_5723.wmv
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your dem i s e .
SawedOff8gaugeman August 8th, 2001, 06:07 AM

I once was about to build a .22lr cell phone gun. I howe wer was too busy for the project and it still rem a i n s t o b e d o n e . A
phonegun you could still m ake a call with would be cool(in avery non ke\/\/l way) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
cool.gif
I h e a r d s o m e t i m e a g o t h a t s o m e nigger had been arrested for having such a thing here in Finland! Had stolen the idea from
m e I guess... http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilie s/tongue.gif
Anthony A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 06: 42 PM

There was apparantly a large consignm e n t o f t h o s e c a u g h t b e i n g s m uggled into the UK a little while ago.
I'm s u r e a s i n g l e s h o t o n e c o u l d e a s i l y b e m a d e.
I wonder how the firin g m echa nism in the one in that video worked?
Predator A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 10: 41 PM

T h e c o c k i n g h a n d l e a t t h e b a c k a r m s 4 s e p e r a t e h a m m e r s i n s i d e t h e p h o n e t o g e t h e r , a n d t h e 4 b u t t o n s o n t h e p h o n e r e l e a se
e a c h h a m m er individually
Predator A ugus t 9t h, 2001, 04: 19 PM

Had a quick drawup o f how I think it works:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com /co/W ildEyed Psycho/refresh.html">Because I can't link to images directly on their server,
page will refresh itself after 2 seconds with the schem atic</a>
You'll also notice I deliberately mis-designed the tip of the firing pin so it couldn't set off a .22 rim fire round..
this is so the kewls can't m ake it, but anyone here with proper knowledge about firearm s such as the old/regular m e m bers
will know how to shape the top so it wo rks
[This message has been edited by Predator (edited August 09, 2001).]
BaD SeeD August 10th, 2001, 11:32 AM

I realize how it works, or a good theory on how it does. At least how it could be im provised. What i wanted to know, was if this
was on the m a r k e t . D o e s a n y o n e k n o w i f t h i s c a n b e b o u g h t ?
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your dem i s e .
twinkle August 16th, 2001, 06:37 AM

the forerunner of this cell-phone gun is a double barreled .32 key-chain gun they were m a d e s o m e w h e r e i n C h e c h o s l o v a k i a
,Romania or Bulgaria
here is a link to som e info of it
http://seattletim es.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/htm l98/alttiny_050798.html
the principle was the sam e b u t t h e s e p h o n e g u n s a r e b e t t e r d i s g u i s e d

the idea of these concealed guns is not new,
the Germ a n h a d a l s o o n e i n W W 2 it was a "con cealed Buckle gun" , something what looks like it is Patent num ber 5,782,025
darkdontay February 10th, 2003, 06:38 PM

I'm on the Mailing list for Inte lligentx News mailing, some intresting computer related news articles, but today their was a
interesting one in the H e a d e r " F r e n c h P o l i c e S e i z e M o b i l e P h o n e G u n s "
Fren ch Police S e i z e M o b i l e P h o n e G u n s
Reuters
Fren ch police said on Friday they had seized two lethal m obile phones capable of shooting four bullets, with the digital
touchpads used as triggers.
T h e b l a c k t e l e p h o n e s , i d e n t i c a l t o n o r m a l m obile phones on the outside, were discovered in a raid on a suspected gangster's

h o m e on Tuesday in the northern town of R o u e n .
T h e f a k e p h o n e s c o m e apart in the m iddle to reveal a four-chamber secret compartm ent for .22 caliber bullets, which can be
shot out of a protruding fake aerial.
"These would be lethal at 10 m eters," said Michel Lavaud, head of a local police brigade.
P o l i c e s e i z e d the telephones along with 1,000 ecstasy p ills, hero i n , c a n n a b i s a n d a b o u t $ 2 5 , 0 0 0 a t t h e h o m e o f a m a n

suspected of armed robberies and drug trafficking.
Lavaud said police thought the weapons were o f a k i n d b e l i e v e d t o b e m a d e i n e a s t e r n E u rope and to have a p p e a r e d i n
Belg ium and the Netherlands in 2001.
<a href="http://www.intelligentx.com /newsletters/technology/articles/story_tech3_021003.cfm " targ et="_blank">http ://

www.intelligentx.com /newsletters/techn ology/articles/sto ry_tech3_021003.cfm </a>
I had just seen that just a couple minutes ago and remebered their was a thread about these guns, and yes to all thoughs
new a simple search will yield you man y results if you ju st try.
<sm all>[ February 10, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]</sm all>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > anyhting i can do with a cap gun?
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View Full Version : anyhting i can do with a cap gun?
d_sturbed_1 A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 11: 14 PM

is th ere some way i can modify a cap gun?
CragHack A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 11: 17 PM

you could use the cap gun as a way to cause terror. You could m odify the thing to throw a spark into the barrel when a cap is
fired. In the Barrel will be som e AP, or AP putty. Leave the thing, with caps loaded, in residential areas known to have sm all
children. O ther than this i don't know.
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
HMTD Factory A ugus t 8t h, 2001, 11: 42 PM

I u s e d t o m odify those with brass pipes. I bought a metal toy re volver, throw away the cylinder, attach a ba rrel to it and play it
with caps and blackpowder.
The "barrel" is a tube form ed with several layers of brass tube, one size bigger than another, glued together with epoxy to
privide
thickness. The breech is similiar to a cap nozzle like that of a muzzleloader.
So a cap is p l a c e d o n t h e n o z z l e a n d p o w d e r i s l o a d e d f r o m t h e m u z z l e , a s p e n t c a p i s u s e d a s t h e p r o j e c t i l e ( t h e c a p h a p p e n s
to fit the bore snugly). Pull the trigger and it will fire.
The keywords are "metal revolver", "blackpowder", "sm all charge", "light projectile", "test fire", "eye protection" and "thick
m itten"
Have fun!
zaibatsu A ugus t 9t h, 2001, 02: 31 PM

T h i s i s m m anwitgun's post on my forum but it crashed and I lost the post, so I'll repost as much a s I can rem e m b e r.
Basically it in volved drilling the cylinder out so that you can fit in metal tubing with an id which fits a .22 bullet, and doing the
s a m e for the barrel, drilling out and fitting in a tube. Ap arently this would work, and would not explode, in dream s a nyway.
Anthony A ugus t 9t h, 2001, 03: 21 PM

Y o u ' d h a v e t o b e e f t h e h a m m er up to fire a .22 cartridg e.
I can't believe som e decent informatio n actually came from such a completely bollocks thread...
Brushburner A ugus t 9t h, 2001, 11: 17 PM

this might be able to work if you could make the ham m er better, but wouldnt the shell com e backwars breaking the plastic?
what i would reccom end is buying a real cheap bb pistol, spring is good. and fixing it so a tube that a 22cal just fits in can be
attached firm ly to the end of the barrel. this wo uld have to be fiddled with for the rimfires to work. a red rider i know can do
this, but a pistol might be better.
Chaos A .D A ugus t 9t h, 2001, 11: 20 PM

Maybe if you put in a heavier firing pin . the ham mer would hit it and it would hit the round .
CyclonitePyro August 10th, 2001, 01:46 AM

H e y C h a o s , g l a d t o s e e y o u h e r e , b e l e ive m e a b o u t t h e acid?

This isn't Queerpier so if you two want a private discussion on an unrelated subject then you can go back there and do it.
"Maybe if you put in a heavier firing pin. the hamm er would hit it and it would hit the round."
I've yet to see a cap gun with a firing pin. What you've just said is the co ncept of a firing pin, but other than that yo ur post
m akes no sense.
HMTD Factory August 10th, 2001, 09:12 PM

The case won't com e back if the config uration is kept like a m uzzleloader, but the loose cap used to set off the charge will
s h o o t b a c k a nd W ILL ruin a PLASTIC revolver, like the cap ruined my earlier experimentals.
I already said "metal" revolver...I was like the second im mediate post and it is real personal experience...didn't som e b o d y
actually read it? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif
A regular cap weight around only 0.5 grain...

a s a projectile it's not gonna be a big risk
if the charge is toned down. You might even se e a straight m uzzle flash if the barrel is short http://theforum .virtualave.net/
u b b / s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif
Sorry, It's no t like I cam e here from queerpier, I recently joined there as a missionary to convert p eople from kewln e s s .
The_Coyote August 12th, 2001, 03:55 PM

I h a v e f o u n d that with a 12 shot cap gun...whether plastic or metal....if you bore out the cham bers (has to be a revolver) you
can a put .177 BB's in the caps (also h as to be a ring cap) and when you shoot it it will shoot out the BB fairly well. It isn't very
powerful but it is good when you are bored. It must be a 12 shot ring though because they have a strong rim to keep the
h a m mer from just pushing the cap in the cham ber.
SATA NIC August 17th, 2001, 01:17 AM

i know of a g uy who tried to convert a m etal cap gun with extra barrel etc. he used a full .22 round, and ble w his hand off, and
loss part of his eye, because it shattered.
It tu rned out (though i'm not quite sure) that h e didn't com pletely clear the barrel (originaly blocked up)
really, i don't think it would be worth the danger of trying to convert a cap gun to fire real projectiles.
madog August 29th, 2001, 12:48 PM

I h a d a d r e a m that i converted an old plastic cap gun to fire bb's. In m y dream i took a sm all pice of Al tube(about 1") then i
epoxied it into one of the cylinders in the cap gun to reinforce it. let the epoxy dry then sawed off the barrell of the cap gun. I
l o a d ed a single cap into the reinforced cylinder, then i p ut a very sm all am ount of flash, a patch, BB, another patch. In m y
dream i shot it at point blank range into a cardboard box and it alm ost whent through. works ok.
------------------
" T r u e f r e e d o m is not without anarchy"
HMTD Factory August 30th, 2001, 12:08 AM

See, the concept works as long as sm o k e l e s s
powder is NO T used and powder charge is toned down.
I don't believe "slightly m idified" toy gun will be safe firing .22LR : If anyone has manually cycled a Ruger 10/22 with ham m er
down...im agine the case provided the work in just 0.004 seconds.
madog August 30th, 2001, 08:36 AM

I don't think that a m odified toy gun can shoot 22LR or 22 short either, m aybe it could shoot a 22CB. I was thinking, what if
you modified a metal capgun like you did to fire black powder but with a bigger bore. And you used im provised am mo with a
cap as a prim er. You couldn't crim p a r o u n d l i k e t h i s t h o u g h . Y o u w o u l d n e e d t o l o a d t h e a m m o l i k e I l o a d e d t h e c a p g u n .
I f o u n d i n m y d r e a m that BP doesn't b urn fast enough for such a small application. the gasses were com ing out of the breech.
but then I started using a generic flash I make that burns m uch faster than BP and it works great.
------------------
" T r u e f r e e d o m is not without anarchy"

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > EMP device on johnbus' site
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View Full Version : EMP device on johnbus' site
green beret March 15th, 2002, 12:05 AM

Does anyone know if the EMP device on jhonbus' site works? It dosent specify the voltage. I have tried to contact him but cant. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
Here is the URL:
<a href="http://www .geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target= "_blank">w ww.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
J March 15th, 2002, 05:12 AM

The HV source is actually a big capacitor bank. The diagram on the site has appeared in New Scientist before now. No details were given in the article about exact specifications,
but it did mention that around 2Kg of TNT is used as the explosive. I've read in another article (no, I don't remember w here) that it could be put together by a terrorist for
around 400. This sounds about right to me.
If you do decide to build one, and in case it actually w orks, don't set it off in a populated area or you WILL be in a w orld of shit. Doing it near a hospital could kill a lot of people.
xoo1246 March 15th, 2002, 07:15 AM

I upploaded a file named EMP.pdf to the forum-ftp some time ago.

Thanks guys, I am assuming that one would take out an alarm system, but for how long? Would it be around 30 seconds?
Thats just a guess....
J March 17th, 2002, 06:06 AM

It w ould take out all the electronics w ithin a 500m radius, permanently.

<blockquote>quote:< hr /> A Poor Man's E-Bomb
An FCG(Flux Compression Generator)is an astoundingly simple weapon. It consists of an explosives-packed tube placed inside a slightly larger copper coil, as shown below. The
instant before the chemical explosive is detonated, the coil is energized by a bank of capacitors, creating a magnetic field. The explosive charge detonates from the rear
forward. As the tube flares outward it touches the edge of the coil, thereby creating a moving short circuit. "The propagating short has the effect of compressing the magnetic
field w hile reducing the inductance of the stator [coil]," says Kopp. "The result is that FCGs w ill produce a ramping current pulse, which breaks before the final disintegration of
the device. Published results suggest ramp times of tens of hundreds of microseconds and peak currents of tens of millions of amps." The pulse that emerges makes a lightning
bolt seem like a flashbulb by comparison.<hr /> </blockquote> <img src= "http://popularmechanics.com/science/
military/2001/9/e-bomb/images/5.jpg" alt="" />
To ignite an E-bomb, a starter current energizes the stator coil, creating a magnetic field. The explosion (A) expands the tube, short-circuiting the coil and compressing the
magnetic field forw ard (B). The pulse is emitted (C) at high frequencies that defeat protective devices like Faraday Cages
nbk2000 March 19th, 2002, 07:29 AM

You may w ish to check out the links I provided in this topic as it relates to EMP.
<a href="http://www .roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000274" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?

ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000274</a>
vulture March 19th, 2002, 03:11 PM

<a href="http://www .powerlabs.org/uwavexp.htm" target= "_blank">microwave gun< /a>
I think i've posted this before. Get an old microwave and you can turn it into a deadly EMP weapon.
green beret March 21st, 2002, 11:49 PM

Take em' out permanently.......shit.
Thanks heaps guys the info is very informative.
TheBicher March 22nd, 2002, 08:15 PM

Just wondering, w hat types of damage could an EMP device cause to you (besides the explosion)? I would think that you w ould need to set it off remotly. Also, is it possible to
make some kind of smaller version to take out something like an alarm system? There must be some way to down size the range of it, right? I'm assuming this would also
effect flashights and other portible electronics, right?
kingspaz March 23rd, 2002, 12:09 PM

it will destroy anything with wires, circuits and electrical components inside. would batteries themselves be affected?
Anthony March 23rd, 2002, 02:00 PM

I should imagine that the EMP would do screwy things to your brain http://w ww.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon22.gif
nbk2000 March 24th, 2002, 12:11 AM

EMP only affects integrated circuits. If it has it chip, it dies. Simple electrical (flashlight for instance) or vacuum tubed circuits are immune to EMP from anything less than a multi-
megaton nuke exploded in space.
As for people, we're unaffected by it since it's just a magnetic field. But microwave or HERF w eapons....that's another story.

I'm going to do some research on smaller EMP devices, one that has a 50meter range w ould be good for taking out alarm systems.

Also, that microwave gun, how far aw ay from it should I be to have total safety from the magnetron?
And, when pulling apart a microw ave, can I be injured if it is not switched on? I was told that they have uranium diodes in them, can they irradiate me?
Any assistance would be very helpful as I want to learn alot about microwaves before I even think about fucking around with them.
Say this "Microwave gun" was to w ork what would the effective range on electrical equipment be and would it be destroyed as soon as I switched the w eapon on?
I dont want to end up like the message icon above!
J March 24th, 2002, 05:09 AM

Microwaves have at least one large capacitor, which will easily kill you if charged up. It w ill be on the high voltage (2kv+ ) side of the transformer. Short it out with a well
insulated screwdriver. Other than that, there's no need to worry about radiation etc.
If you're serious about microw aves, you should read an introductory book about them because it's a very large subject. I have one which I'd reccomend if I could find it! I'll try
and dig it out later. I warn you though, there's a lot of theory about waves that you'll need to know about already.
vulture March 24th, 2002, 05:52 AM
Just look at < a href="http://w ww.powerlabs.org," target="_blank">ww w.powerlabs.org,</a> that's the site the gun is on. They have extensive info on high voltage and EMP.

<blockquote>quote:< hr /> but it did mention that around
2Kg of TNT is used as the explosive.<hr />< /blockquote> < blockquote> quote:<hr /> It would take out all the electronics within a 500m radius, permanently. <hr />< /
blockquote> I think an explosive like RDX or PETN w ould be extremely suited for this type of use.One could use about 500
grams of PETN/RDX to almost have the same effect how ever the actual device w ould be a great deal smaller and lighter,also easier to conceal. :D
Im sure if you knew what you were doing one could be produced for alot less than $800 Australian dollars,depending on the prices of your chemicals. :p
J March 24th, 2002, 07:21 AM

It's not the chemicals that would be expensive, it's the capacitor bank. Since a very fast rise time is required to get maximum effect, high voltage pulse caps must be used.
These are expensive, and generally not available through the average electronics supplier. I don't think electrolytic caps would do the job, but I may be wrong.
Testing would also be required to get the timings right.
PYRO500 March 25th, 2002, 04:38 PM

Electrolytic capacitors are much too slow for a priming pulse in a FCG, you need caps with a very low ESR and short pulse length
Zambosan March 26th, 2002, 01:22 PM

You'd also be looking at a pretty hefty amount of electrical engineering work.
[ July 18, 2002, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]
Purple Fire April 29th, 2002, 06:47 AM

if you wanted, say, a 5m radius one, could you use photoflash capacitors from disposable cameras? and how small do you think you could get this down to? hand held, lob-it-
through a window size? burgler alarms are going to be a pretty pathetic barrier if these ever get into general circulation. And there could be a big price for one of these on the
black market. If one of us does get a reliable one, they could be a millionaire in 6 months selling it to burglers!
J April 29th, 2002, 08:55 AM

Burglar alarm = loud alert to the police. EMP device = very loud alert to police, + additional (and far more serious) laws being broken.
I don't see why it couldn't be scaled down though. But photo flash caps are electrolytic, so they w ouldn't be any use. I highly doubt a grenade sized device would be possible, at
least to the amateur w ith poor funding.
[ April 29, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: J ]
PYRO500 April 29th, 2002, 11:24 PM

You can forget about making one without housands of dollars in test equipment let alone alot more for a small one that is not likely to work. the caps in photoflash cameraa are
electrolytic but that isn't the reason w hy they won't w ork, the capacitors need to discharge very fast and while they are discharging the detonation w ave needs to travel down
the conductor and the pulse of electricity needs to be millions of amps and happen during the discharge, so your capacitor bank needs to discharge fast and drain very quickly
witch means very little resistance, and high precision in the timing of the detonation. nothing short of a 250 pound pulse cap and a half million dollars w orth of equipment.
(double that if you want it to survive)
Flake2m April 30th, 2002, 10:44 AM

The Irony with an FCG is; that you would need a computer for the theory, yet an FCG is designed to destroy computers.
anyway
how big w ould an FCG be if it was designed to take out any device within a 200m radius, would it be small enough to mount in the back of a van?
I was thinking about w here you would place an FCG if you w anted to set one off.
In each of the experiments, a Russian (VNIIEF) designed and built imploding MC-1 flux compression generator w as used to explosively compress the magnetic field into a
smaller volume. Thus, generating an energy density of approximately 60 times that of the detonating high explosives on their ow n.
this could be useful in detirmining the amount of explosive needed to create an FCG.
i got some info from < a href="http://ww w.lanl.gov/projects/dirac/index.html" target="_blank"> this website < /a>
photonic May 19th, 2002, 05:34 PM

Actually, you can create a small emp device in your garage rather easily. You just need a HV/High Current transformer, a capacitor banks, and a electromagnet. Depending on
the size of your transformer you can either use a standard throw switch or, if it's a large transformer, a spark gap. You connect the caps in parralel and put the switch/spark gap
anywhere that allows the caps to charge when closed. When the caps have fully charged, you flip the sw itch and all the current rushed through the elecromagent and creates an
emp or if you're using a spark gap, it reaches the breakdown point, the air ionizes and the circuit is completed creating the same effect. MOT's w ill probably work as the
transformer, and you want high capacitance caps. More joules = more emp in my understanding. The caps at <a href= "http://www .thegeekgroup.org"
target= "_blank">w ww.thegeekgroup.org< /a> might work but i think their capacitance is too low . If I'm wrong about any of this, correct me.
I forgot to mention that if there's too much resitance in the wire, it w ill explode.
[ May 19, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: photonic ]

It's high current which creates high level emp isn't it? If so, w hy the use of HV?
Also, isn't most electromagnetic flux/radiation created when a field collapses? If so, what about a car battery in parrel w ith one or more 1Farrad audio booster caps connected to
a coil w ith a fast breaking solenoid/relay, nice thick, short cables all round. Or am I just making a bad arse electromagnet here and no emi? :)

You're right about high current making a stronger emf I think. It's just most transformers that aren't current limited(i.e. Microwave Oven Transformers) also produce a decent
amount of voltage. Also, HV allow s you to use a spark gap triggered emp device. Low voltage won't ionize the air. With a sg you can control at what point the caps trigger by
widening the gap. As for batteries in parrael, that will just speed up the charge time. The caps are in parralel to increase the capacitance. I think we use HV because we're using
caps instead of straight from the tranny.
Because j = .5(v^ 2c) where j is joules, v is voltage, and c is capacitance in farads, the higher the voltage, the more energy and the more emf. That's w hy we want HV/High
Capacitance caps. Most audio caps are high capacitance but only like 25 volts i think.
If anybody has the formula for the em strength(gauss i think) in relation to voltage and current that would answ er my/anthony's question. All the formula's i'm finding so far
indicate voltage is of no consequence, but all the emp devices I've seen use HV. So I'm not sure.
Forget the MOT, I think the power supply needs to be DC. It will be difficult to find a hv dc power supply so I'm going to assume that hv is not a requirement. It will just
decrease the time it takes for the caps to charge.
[ May 19, 2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: photonic ]
PYRO500 May 20th, 2002, 07:52 PM

You w ant high voltages beacuse a capacitor's energy is lineraly increased by it's capacitance, but if you plot the voltage you get an exponential curve w itch means that the more
energy from the voltage the faster the discharge and the high voltage travels better through conductors. As for microwave oven transformers, They are current limited, their
current is just very high, ex> PRI: 120V 8.3A SEC: 2000V .5A this is a typical 1Kw microwave oven transformer. Their are several types of electronic w eapons some mentioned
before are TED herfs, these are usually of the spark gap type that use a w aveguide to guide the RF from the spark (usually from a cap bank discharge) there also is the HERF
or HPM that is usually from a magnetron with wave guide or MASER attached to colimate the microw aves and I w ill mention this now : DO NOT USE SWITCHES WITH HIGH
ENERGY CAPACITOR DISCHARGES! A capacitor of a suitabe size w ill probably cause your switch to explode on closing, I recomend using a very high power scr.
Hey, thanks for the explanation. Although it would not be portable I suppose you could w ire a line transformer backwards to a cap bank and ballast it at whatever current you
wanted. If you could afford to create the capacitor bank for it, I imagine you could have a pretty sizable emp. Most SCR's for high voltage are expensive and hard to come by
aren't they? Since this thing not firing very quickly I think a standard adjustable spark gap would probably w ork w ell. You mentioned energy "weapons" that use a waveguide on
the spark gap. I read something about magnetically quenched spark gaps that use neodymium magnets to guide the spark. Is this what you're talking about?
PYRO500 May 20th, 2002, 09:32 PM

I am talking about waveguides that direct and focus the EM radiation, they usually have a fed horn to further increase gain in one direction, as for a triggered spark gap they are
very loud and can cause metals to explode and shoot out hot liquid metal. I have seen big scr's on ebay for a fair price but I recently got 2 18KA hockey puck scr's for 5$ each
at a surplus store.

for those thinking of trying to make an emp w ith pulse capacitors alone... it isnt worth the effort. Some time ago I collected 70kj worth of capacitors from old pulsed ruby lasers.
me and a few friends tried discharging the cap bank through all manner of coils and w ere not able to produce any signifigant emp (a cheap 5$ walmart timex was used as an
emp 'detector') w e were sucesfull in making straight w ire out of alot of coils, or more to the point, bits of straight wire as the coils exploded (the magnetic flux from a high
curent discharge tends to turn a coil into a line), but not much emp.... and that w as w ith a pile of capacitors that weighed about a ton!!!!!
AfterRain July 12th, 2002, 04:08 AM

alright, sorry to bring this topic alive again, But i was thinking, Could you use a battery,magnet,copper wire and the bomb.
Could you set it up like this

battery (+) to the mag's negative, then from there to the copper wire loop around the explosives then back the the (-) on the battery, when it would go off, w ould that
produce and EMP/EMF, I w as thinking this because the magnet ,w ould magnatise the copper wire, so when it explodes the pipe touches the copper wire, but w ould this create
the short as if not using the magnet? it might seem stupid, dumb ass, what not.. i had this idea, and was not sure if it was a good idea, or a wrong one since. thanks
PYRO500 July 13th, 2002, 01:23 AM

That makes no logical sense w hatsoever, wrapping a magnet in w ire and running current through it and blowing it up will result in shreded w ire for a flux compression generator
to work you need a huge capacitor bank and a precision density HE that w ill travel at the instant the coil is energised. Not really something that the ametuer can hope to build.
As for a 70KJ capacitor bank, that is absolutely huge in fact unless the capacitors were slow electrolytic or very huge HV caps I don't see how you could have gotten them, let
alone switched them safely to fire this device. I could use a couple of big capacitors myself they are very hard to come by. w ith 70KJ of energy I'd build a rail gun. With 70 KJ
though you should have been able to destroy more than a watch.
AfterRain July 13th, 2002, 06:52 PM

Not wrapping the magnet in wire, but adding power (+) to the magents (-) side, then from the magnets (+) side, run a wire around the explosives , then that wire runs back
to the (-) on the battery, which would complete the circut, i was thinking this because magnets have magnetic field , so i just thought that making the copper wire hooked up to
the magnet could produce the same effect but maybe of a smaller size
xoo1246 July 13th, 2002, 07:06 PM

Well possibly you could destroy the electronics controlling your 9 v EMP, by blast effect. :p
I belive they use an explosive lense in a linear EMP device to to get a planar(is that the word?) shockwave.
PYRO500 July 13th, 2002, 10:04 PM

That idea makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, just beacuse you blow up a coil of wire wrapped around a battery doesn't mean it'll make an emp.

I *think* he means run a current through a permanent magnet...

pyro500,
the caps w ere 10kv, and a mix of 100 and 60 uf... the whole array weighed in at over a ton.... as far as how i safely switched this??? w ell a high power ignitron would probably
have handled the curent if there was some inductance in the circuit to keep the pulse length long... how ever we did it the old fashoned way... hardshorting the caps... each
short would vaporize maybe half a foot of the ground electrode (doubled up 0000 guage copper wire) since tnt puts out about a kcal per gram, 70kj was the explosive
equivalance of about half an ouce of tnt... to say the least the hardshorts were pretty damn loud!!!! i have video somew here of setting this bitch up, if i find it I'll post to the
media section later....
we destroyed plenty of stuff, but couldnt generate any signifigant amount of emp... we tried quarter crushing, and at low powers had some luck, but once we got into the tens
of kj range, we didnt crush the quarters much, just propelled them at high speed... guess our coild had too many nonuniformities...
my ftp client keeps crashing my damn puter.... is there any w ay to post pics directly to the forum???
[ July 14, 2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: pyromaniac_guy ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Railgun
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View Full Version : Railgun

Has anyone tried making one of these? I'd like to build my own, but I need to learn a few fundamentals about magnetic
fields, formulas etc... I'd like to build a gun with about a .50 inch barrel and loots of power (of course). I need to know stuff
like what material to make the barrel from? how many winds of wire and what gauge? how much current/voltage is required?
A buddy of mine brought up the idea of building a railgun and now I'm obcessed. He told me that the amount of winds is
directly related to the barrel length. He also had an idea about converting a paintball gun into a railgun and letting the air
pressure get the projectile moving. Would this really be necessary? Oh, and is there a specific metal that the projectile would
need to be made of for optimum performance?
Thanks for the help everybody!
PYRO500 March 7th, 2002, 01:02 PM

reailgins don't use coils of wire, if you needhelp with one visit www.powerlabs.org (http://www.powerlabs.org) and ask at hteir
forums.

you are correct, railguns do not use coil. they use charged rails to create a magnetic field. the hardest part about a railgun is
finding a pulse capacitor with high voltage and amperage. search for 'gauss' on http://www.slashdot.org
there was an article there recently on a similar concept but some of the discussion talks about railguns.

Railguns can use coils - two rows of coils, one above and one below the rails, so that the field lines go straight down through
the rails and armature (bullet). You have to have the field in the right direction though, or it will have a negative effect on
performance.
Every time this has been discussed on the Forum while I've been here, it has been decided that if you want something that
works for under a few 100, make a conventional coil gun, not a rail gun.
PYRO500 March 8th, 2002, 12:44 PM

yes you can have electromagnets in a railgun to increase efficiency a bit but the militayry can only get around 5% so don't
expect to get any higher, coil guns on the other hand are MUCH simpler and require MUCH less energy and can be relitively
powerful, coilguns are alsocalled gauss guns fyi, the single coil ones are simple but when you get mucltiple coils things get
harry, the advantage to gauss guns is thet you can use electrolytics on them.
xoo1246 March 8th, 2002, 01:01 PM

Don't expect too much...
Tyler_Durden March 8th, 2002, 01:46 PM

http://scitoys.com
Some cool stuff there. I think there is somethin on a simple toy railgun.

interesting enough i borrowed (read: stole) some neodynium magnets and some steel ball bearings from physics today and
made a simple gauss gun. it involves taping the magnets 2.5in away from each other on a ruler with a groove in it, putting 2
ball bearings in front of each and letting one go at the end with no ball bearings on the magnet. the 1st magnet attracts it,
makes it hit, transfers the kinetic energy through the magnet and one of the 2 balls places there and to the other of the 2
balls. this said ball then gains acceleration due to the attraction by the 2nd magnet and so on. you can get a respectable
speed out of 10 magnets or so.
heres a diagram where

0=ball
x=magnet
-= nothing/ruler
--0----x00----x00----x00----x00---

Seems I got the terminology mixed up. I meant coil gun (hence the windings). But now that I've looked into it a little harder,
it's hardly worth all the work involved. :(
Ctrl_C, I found this link last night http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html that shows pictures of the simple
gauss gun you just described.
TariqMujahid March 16th, 2002, 04:48 PM

Railguns...i've thought about making one of these. However, don't expect to match the Department of Defense's railgun, that
shoots 6 km/sec.
Just think: a stungun can seriously injure someone, and it uses only a 9V battery. Why is this? Because of the capacitors. So,
if you have a large capacitor bank (maybe a few hundred capacitors), you can perhaps get decent results.
For the materials of the rails, try using Copper or Silver...Iron won't do it. Same thing applies for the Armature, it must be non-
ferrous.
An idea for shooting the armature is this: Do not simply insert it, and then turn on the power. Try using a pneumatic device to
shoot the armature in, and then the railgun does its work. The advantage of this is: it helps to prevent overheating, which can
weld the armature to the rails and short out the gun.
The magnetic fields on a railgun tend to push the 2 rails apart. So you will need a strong support frame that will hold the two
rails together.
The 2 rails MUST be parallel to each other.
I had an idea for a railgun that would have 2 sets of rails, one going horizontally and the other vertically. When the armature
passed through, it would complete 2 circuits at the same time. The advantage of this, is i'd have 2 capacitor banks; therefore
it would charge up in half the time, while still using the same amount of electricity.
Railguns give off a lot of electromagnetic interference when they are fired, keep that in mind.
<a href="http://www.railgun.org" target="_blank">www.railgun.org</a> These guys are 2 students at MIT who are building their
own railgun. I've asked one of them, Mouser, a few questions. They know a lot about the subject, send em an e-mail maybe.

hmm your pneumatic idea is a good one, but it would be difficult. first of all, the projectile would be pretty heavy. if you know
anything about paintball guns, you know paintballs have a very short curving trajectory. this would be more evident with a
heavy projectile being launched from something similar to (if not) a paintball gun. also, you would probably have to use a
projectile slightly smaller than the barrel and use a pece of cloth or something as wadding to keep the pressure from escaping
around the ball.

The (pneumatic) pre-injector is not only a good idea, it's practically essential! Without one it's very hard to stop the armateur
from welding.

What are military/industrial rail gun's made/used for?
kingspaz March 16th, 2002, 07:44 PM

i beleive they are used for testing pretty much. i also beleive they are (where?) part of the the star wars projects which involve
various 'space age' technology such as chemical lasers mounted on aircraft. the project was originally made to find a way to
defeat ICBM's.

The armature of a railgun must conduct electricity, but cannot be Iron. Therefore, a paintball would not work. It would just sit
there. The purpose of the armature is to close the circuit between the 2 rails. The magnetic field that is created tries to expand
itself, and therefore moves the armature up the rail. That's also why it pushes the two rails apart... So, having a wadded
projectile simply will not work.
The Armature will have to fit snuggly in the pneumatic insertion device. I got most of this information from <a href="http://
www.railgun.org" target="_blank">www.railgun.org</a> and searching online, so just look what they have. They have pretty
good formulas for this stuff.
[ March 16, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: TariqMujahid ]

I remain adamant that a personal raigun will never be more practical than a conventional firearm or even compressed gas
power weapon. Until small, portable fusion generators are created.
Stunguns don't cause injury/pain because of the energy contained in the discharge, it uses the power of your own muscles to
do that, it simply controls them. The amount of energy required to stop your heart is very small, considerably less than that
contained within a 9v PP3 battery. The reason it works is because of the extremely efficient delivery method (if applied to the
correct area of the body). Although again, its your own heart muscles which actually stop your heart, or make it fiblerate.
There are many very high energy density batteries available at the moment that would probably have enough stored energy to
give you several rail gun shots that possesed energy equal to that of a firearm round. But the problem with these high energy
density batteries is that they just can't handle high discharge rates so would take a long time to recharge your cap bank for a
follow up shot. Forget double-tap...
It's much the same thing that prevents electric cars from catching on, basically that you get a lot more energy stored in small
amount of chemical compound that can be released instantly. It might be less efficient but you're prepared to eat the loss
because of its great advantage.

No, of course a railgun is not practical; that's a good point Anthony brought up. If you're trying to make a railgun as a
substitute for a paintball gun, that will be very difficult. It takes a long long time for them to recharge their capacitor bank, and
that's the reason you don't see them on fighter planes or soldiers armed with them. They need weapons with a high rate of
fire, and shooting a shot; waiting a minute; and firing another just won't cut it. Railguns, atleast homemade ones, are only
good for hobbyists. Similarly, you wouldn't take your homemade coil gun on a guerilla attack. But my idea, with the 4 rails
would effectively cut the recharge rate in half. It's essentially 2 railguns firing the same armature. Therefore, it would have 2
separate energy sources...
PYRO500 October 13th, 2002, 01:38 AM

Actually you'll get better efficency if you stick to 2 rails, if you want more contact surface area then a co-axial rail gun might be
what you are looking for.
Today I finally got some parts for my rail gun. They are two silver plated copper bus bars, and 3 4,200V capacitors.
The bus bars are 3 feet 3 inches long and 2 inches wide, they are 3/16 of an inch thick. The capacitors I have are all rated for
4,200V and their capacitance that was measured at the factory is stamped on them, there are 2 298UF caps and a 297UF cap.
The total energy these capacitors can store is about 7,876 Joules, witch 30 is considered lethal and 360 or so are avalable at a
hospital through their defibulation machine.
I plan on using lexan for the rail gun body beacuse it's much more simple to cut than garrolite composite such as used on
Sam Barros' page.
What I have to do now is cut the bus bars to the right lenghts and hook up all the cap's in paralell. then once there paralelled
I can discharge them through a resistor and watch them on an osciliscope and try to find out how fast they'll discharge in my
rail gun app so I can calculate the lenght of the rails correcly.
If you want to see pictures of the capacitor bank I'm building go to this link: <a href="http://pub13.bravenet.com/
photocenter/album.php?album=3422&usernum=1081592780" target="_blank">http://pub13.bravenet.com/photocenter/
album.php?album=3422&usernum=1081592780</a>
I have some pictures of the bank and bus bars there.
[ October 13, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

Remember you don't need to use conductive material for guiding the projectile wihile it's still being fired. You could just use a
wooden rail or a plastic one. Allthough the plastic might not withstand the heat caused by friction it will be more moisture
resistant.
Also why have more that two rails for conduction? since you only need + and - it seems pointless to add more potentially
damageable (is that english?) parts.
And what precautions are you going to take to make sure your expensive capacitors won't blow up?
The projectile you want ot use doesn't have to be solid copper (or whatever conductive stuff is used here)it can be something
heavier with a conductive layer.
PS. does someone know/have any links about how to make a homopole generator?
[ October 15, 2002, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: the resourceless reaperman ]

Pyro .... here's something I wanted to try .... but I don't have good charge dump caps. Anyways see if you can try this ... take
really thick insulated (PVC insulated 14 gauge) Cu wire and wind say 5 turns on a Non-Ferro Magnetic rod (a brass screw).
Then have only the 2 ends of the coil make contact with the rails (keep in mind the polarity of the coiled armature). I am
suspecting a slug with a winding to be more efficient and faster compared to a standard slug. I have other coil windings to try
but I'll wait till I get mine tunning.
PYRO500 October 15th, 2002, 05:23 PM

I am only planning of using two rails like a normal railgun. I was only pointing out flaws with the 4 rail design.
For the railgun to have any kind of efficency the armature must make contact with the rails for the duration of the pulse. I
have yet to determine the pulse so I can't calculate how long my rails need to be yet. I will do that when I get all my
capacitors hooked up and working and calculate the ESR and ESL.
I'm not sure what exactly you ment about that conductive coating but I do know that if you use a metal strip behind a non
conducting slug you will get a plasma armature rail gun and get higher speeds since your projectile is alot lighter.
As far as plasma armatures go I don't think I'll be using one due to the high pressures involved and the materials I'd need to
use. It isn't that I can't afford G-9 Garrolite like Sam Barros, It's just that I lack the CNC waterjet cutter and such tools to cut
the tough stuff. I plan on using Lexan or polycarbonate plastic for the gun.
I think the idea with the brass slug wound with a coil would decrease efficency beacuse it would raise inductance in the circuit
and cause the capacitors to discharge alot slower decreasing the maximum amperage delivered to the rails.

that's why I asked about the homopole generator, it can create enormous amperages and discharge very quickly without being
damaged.
PS. check <a href="http://www.geocities.com/thatsmeagain2000" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/thatsmeagain2000</a>

if you still want to know what I meant by a metal coating.
Positive Electron October 16th, 2002, 06:20 PM

a close friend of mine made a small version with wooden rails that contained small amounts of mercury. he used wooden
barriers to keep them from contacting and it worked pretty good. he had 6 7000v caps from his dad (a laser physics engineer)
and he charged with 8 die hard batteries :)
one of the military guns used 14000 car batteries and had 2 35 foot long aluminum rails, and shot 22 million fps. the whole
gun assembly took up 2 large warehouses, and they tipped a tank sideways with it, but the rails would destroy themselves
after every shot, so they discontinued the project.
Anthony October 16th, 2002, 07:20 PM
Have you got a reference for that 22,000,000 fps figure?
Marvin October 16th, 2002, 10:02 PM

reaperman, homopolar generator creates very high currents at tiny voltages, the power therefore isnt useful. The only people
still interested in them are the mixture of snakeoil salesmen and physics incompetents that still bilieve in free energy.
Somehow I think a coilgun whose magnets were coresonent with the accelerating projectile would be extremly efficient using
superconducting windings. I wonder if this has been tried.
Edit, played around with some math.
22million fps is 2.2% of the speed of light.

That works out at about 50 tons of TNT per gram of armature.
Assuming the car batteries dumped the energy completely into the gun, with 5% conversion, would make the armature about
7.5mg.
I get the feeling at this power to armature ratio it would vapourise in the gun.
Anyone care to doublecheck these numbers?
[ October 16, 2002, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Marvin ]
firebreether October 16th, 2002, 11:18 PM

No way it could do anywhere near 22,000,000 fps. I thought the record for a projectile was Sandia's rail gun, launching a .1
gram projectile to 16,000 m/s. Which is huge, considering bullets are around 1,000 m/s top speed rough estimate.

doesn't friction in the air melt the projectile?
firebreether October 17th, 2002, 04:10 PM

yes, going at high speed, aerodynamic heating will be high. But I'm concerned with this, if you choose to use a plasma
armature, wouldn't it melt the rails and the prohectile in short order, i mean at the currents needed to produce high energy
shots, depending on the voltage used, the plasma will be hot, and dense, and melterific.

Some friends of mine just made a coil gun (which as has been stated is different than a rail gun). This was just an
experimental prototype, and although it was cool it was extreamy inefficient. The gun could shoot a screw about 3 meters,
which is obviosly not even as powerful as the human finger, and the coil gun must be carried around. It would be very hard to
build a compact, powerfull coil gun, and I'm sure if your seriose a rail gun is the way to go.
Ctrl_C October 17th, 2002, 09:05 PM

I was just thinking, what would happen if you shot a projectile from a railgun into another railgun set to discharge when the
projectile entered it. kind of a series of railguns. could you achieve higher velocities? also, when they quote these figures, are
they at sea level, vacuum, or other?

I think a homopolar generator will be far too low in voltage to supply the power a railgun needs. As far as I know HPG's need
very good low friction brushes to work. IIRC I've seen some that use liquid mercury as the contact. If you were to make a
generator & flywheel to run one of these directly you'd need a compulsator or a compensated alternator. Compulsators are
kind of hard to describe but basicly they are like a generator that can supply huge currents at fairly high voltages to whatever
their output is hooked up to, they can be made pretty efficient and power something like a railgun with a signifigantly heavy
flywheel attached.
The only problem with a compulsator is that there fairly complex to build and need precision and would overall be more of a
challenge to make one of them than a rail gun. So in light of that I'm using a capacitor bank, it's my most affordable option
(cost me 375$ on capacitors and 20$ on silver plated copper bus bars so far)
I think my railgun may be only metal armature. With a plasma armature I need tough materials that are tougher than lexan
(what I plan to use) and they may be about the same price but I'm probobly going to have to use standard tools, nothing like
milling machines, etc.
I am still designing my rail stack for the gun. so far I've come up a design that uses 2 T shaped spacers that the rails go on
wither end of and end up flish with the sides of the T si that it the T's will be covered with a block of lexan and the lexan T's
will be bolted to the rail covers. I'm thinking if I use clear polycarbonate I should be able to see all the parts of the gun all the
time (untill the lexan gets charred) witch should make for some fairly intersting pictures.
I know already I'll have to keep the rails far enough apart to avoid arcing between them and while minimizing projectile
weight. I'm thinking around 10 mm between my rails but I'm not sure yet.
As far as the multiple railgun idea goes, it is possible, beacuse the railgun is just accelerating the slug with an immense
current pulse however the energy will be most efficently used if the slug that enters the rails has the entire capacitor bank
discharged over one set of rails instead of several.
Most of the velocity's I've seen quoted for railguns are done in the ordinary lab manner in witch they just test it at STP and
record the results although I have read of railguns that break the world's speed records by firing into a vacuum. Railguns that
fire into vacuum's are VERY fast.
As far as coilguns go I've built a few out of fiberglass tubes and computer grade electrolytic capacitors but they were all single
stage and solid state employing hockeypuch SCR's to switch them.
I think a railgun will be much harder than any coilgun and probobly alot more fun too. besides at 4,200V and 7,876 J of
energy there isn't much simplicity to design a coil gun of that magnitude

Sam Barros is almost complete his rail gun and in the forum he said full testing should begin as soon as tomorow. Check out
this page and go to the rail gun secion (also check out the coil guns).
<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/" target="_blank">http://www.powerlabs.org/</a>
Edit: That's Sam Barros
[ October 17, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]

Helvetica">As far as the multiple railgun idea goes, it is possible, beacuse the railgun is just accelerating the slug with an
immense current pulse however the energy will be most efficently used if the slug that enters the rails has the entire capacitor
bank discharged over one set of rails instead of several. <hr /></blockquote>Now what if these sperate railguns each had a seperate capacitor bank? more or less like a coil gun, only instead of
coils you use the two bars. It seems like a good idea.

That idea would work but it would suck when it came to efficency. the longer the gun the more friction and past a certain point
the projectile is destroying any part of the gun it touches (esp rails if you made the gun the right length then you should be
able to get the most power out of it when everything is in one stage. Trying to make multiple stages defeats the purpose of
building a railgun when you want to get the projectile the fastest speed possible in the shortest distance possible

I see.
Idea:
If the projectile were to be filled with a gas say... Argon. would it turn into a plasma upon firing?

What do you mean by filling the projectile with argon? If you mean to make the path of least resistance through a gas instead
of directly from metal to metal, yes, some of the gas will get hot and turn to a plasma although that is hardly useful and
would be nothing but an arc inside a gas envelope and not do much else. You can use plasma in your railgun to propell a slug
though. it involves sending something like a metal ribbon behind the slug and when it's injected and contacts the rails the
metal ribbbon should get vaporized and conduct and therefore be subject to the lorenz forces behind the slug and propell the
non conducting slug out of the railgun.

does everything that can conductwork?
in case that's so, does salt water ( :p )work?

Yes, and no. I think the slug has to be non feromagnetic. Aother thing is that the energy required for that bead of water to go
anywere will result in it's vaporization and then nothing will happen.

I assume ferromagnetics mean Cobalt, iron, neodymium etc.
why don't these work? and salt water surely can't be ferromagnetic??

Salt water will vaporize! read my last post!

that's not what I asked, I asked why ferromagnetics don't work.

the resourceless reaperman, show some respect to moderators. he is trying to help so don't get angry and be grateful. think
before you post or face being banned.

Sorry,
I was a bit rude there.
sorry sorry sorry!
I still wonder why ferromagnetics don't work...

Because their resistance is too high.

According to Powerlabs, to work properly a railgun must have a pneumatic injector so that the projectile is already traveling
around 200 m/s (i think) when it enters the rails.
[ October 20, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: AfroFukinPyro ]
Anthony October 21st, 2002, 07:35 AM

It doesn't have to be a pneumatically driven injector. Any means of getting the slug moving before it contacts the rails (at an
appropriate speed) will work.
It's interesting to see that Sam Barros' caps are a bit *too* good and he needs to slow the discharge pulse down!
the resourceless reaperman October 21st, 2002, 09:11 AM

could a strong spring do the job? It won't reach 200m/s but it will be have some speed without the added cost of a pneumatic
injector.
Harry October 21st, 2002, 11:30 AM

How about a double-base injector? Load double-base smokeless into shotshell, add slug, crimp. Prime shotshell, load into
chamber. Charge cap bank, ready aim fire.
Harry
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 21st, 2002, 12:23 PM

This idea could be a load of steaming B.S. but.....
from personal experience at a local university and after completing a lot of experiments on the matter i have come to an idea
that could revolutionise the entire idea of rail guns and it goes a little like this...
plasma is the fourth state of matter (1-3 being liquid,gas,solid) this is a gas that is highly excited, and as such exhibits
strange and unusual properties such as being conductive, plasma can be created by exciting gas (certain gasses) with a UV
laser (or by microwave, but a UV laser gives a nice straight line) with 2 uv lasers, one either side of the other generating 2
straight lines straight out (towards target). After the plasma "rails" are generated we then take a light-weight projectile that
has fins to aid in stabilisation of said projectile. A potential difference (voltage) is then applied across the two "rails" mimicing
a rail gun, the projectile is then 'shunted' in the direction of travel of the rails,
the projectile shorts the two plasma "rails" and it acts exactly as a rail gun would.
Due to the plasma rails, we avoid the usual problems of weight, and damage due to the extreme forces exerted on them. Also
this allows for the rails to be extremely long (dependant on the lasers capabilities)
as far as i can see it, this is the way forward (but only if you happen to have a continuos flow of noble gas/uv laser etc :( )
I would love to see if this idea could get off the ground, I may be able to persuade the staff at the uni to investigate this but I
would like a bit of feed back on the rail-gun side (not my area) before I start talking about it to anyone else
PYRO500 October 21st, 2002, 09:52 PM

In theroy that idea would work, but there are a few things that stand in the way of success.
One of the things is that you need very huge voltages to conduct electricity down your plasma trails from your multi terrawatt
lasers, and another thing is that the air is likely to arc across at the voltage source if you give it enough voltage to arc down
two plasma channels.
the resourceless reaperman October 22nd, 2002, 08:53 AM

Why use a railgun if you have multi-terawatt lasers?
PYRO500 October 22nd, 2002, 04:51 PM

Exactly the point I was making.
the resourceless reaperman October 22nd, 2002, 05:21 PM

If you have multiple terawatts, wouldn't it be more attractive to use metal bars? why bother about lasers?
[ October 23, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: the resourceless reaperman ]
firebreether October 23rd, 2002, 12:02 AM

I just saw a picture of Sam Barros' railgun firing, holy cow, that was amazing. quite powerful. Yeah, its too bad that it
discharged too fast, you wouldn't think of that as being bad normally :rolleyes: The pulse was so short, that the projectile was
only half on the rail and the discharge was over, meaning that it really didn't accelerate the projectile much, just the plasma
form the projectile vaporizing. This also made it spectacular to see, as there was a huge cloud of metal sparks, and an intense
muzzle flash.
[ October 22, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: firebreether ]
Boob Raider June 11th, 2003, 02:51 PM

I am not sure if this would count as a plasma armature (I think it would). Here is the set up. 2 cheap Al railsbolted on a steel
plate or something with a couple of mm gap between them. Your cap bank is hook up to the rails like in a regular setup. Now
for the projectile ..... a shaped charge with a leaded Cu cone (Cu cone which is allowed to soak in molten lead) or whatever
material you think or know is best. From what I know about shaped charges is that they produce a thin jet of metal plasma.
The shaped charge is alligned with the rails and detonated. As is the jet of plasma has a velocity of ~10km/s add to which the
energy dumped by the caps into the plasma when it moves through the rails.
Mr Cool June 12th, 2003, 10:25 AM

It may work, but if you've got a SC, then why bother with a railgun? It's not going to accelerate it to significantly more than the
~10 km/s that the tip of the jet is already travelling at without HUGE capacitor banks, and HUGE expense.
Plus, the mechanics/engineering of it would be a nightmare I think, if it is intended to be re-usable. Any misalignment and
your jet will just plough straight through your rails and ruin them.
One thing I have been thinkng about would be to have thick copper rails, coated with a mil or so of tungsten, or other non-
amalgamating metal. The slug would be teflon or other plastic, perhaps with a metal core. It would be accelerated using a
mercury or indium/gallium alloy, or other quite inert liquid metal, as the armature. This would get round problems associated
with sparking and welding, and would provide minimal friction. The liquid metal may well vapourise and form a plasma
armature I think. If nothing else it would vapourise and propel the projectile via the conventional expanding-gas method,
although if that's all that happens it'd be a bit of a waste of time!
Boob Raider June 12th, 2003, 01:06 PM

Why not use a slug of Hg or Hg/Ag amalgam instead. I believe the teflon wouldn't allow the slug to accelerate to a large
extent as it is non-conductive. I believe only the Hg/In plasma would accelerate. Personally Ag slugs should be the simplest
and best. Least electrical resistance of all metals so no arcing or welding problems. I am not sure is welding a greater problem
or friction with the rails. If friction is a greater problem the Graphite looks pretty good. Like I said earlier Hg/Ag amalgam
would be good too.
I didn't know that the caps wouldn't be able to accelerate a plasma jet over ~10km/s.
The reason I thought so is that in every railgun related page that I have read, it is mentioned that the faster the slug is
traveling before it enters the rails the better. And I believe the military railgun has the slug explosively projected through the
rails.
I wasn't worried about the rails getting damaged part. I was using cheap Al rails to begin with.

"Why not use a slug of Hg or Hg/Ag amalgam instead. I believe the teflon wouldn't allow the slug to accelerate to a large
extent as it is non-conductive. I believe only the Hg/In plasma would accelerate. Personally Ag slugs should be the simplest
and best. Least electrical resistance of all metals so no arcing or welding problems. I am not sure is welding a greater problem
or friction with the rails. If friction is a greater problem the Graphite looks pretty good. Like I said earlier Hg/Ag amalgam
would be good too.
I didn't know that the caps wouldn't be able to accelerate a plasma jet over ~10km/s.
The reason I thought so is that in every railgun related page that I have read, it is mentioned that the faster the slug is
traveling before it enters the rails the better. And I believe the military railgun has the slug explosively projected through the
rails.
I wasn't worried about the rails getting damaged part. I was using cheap Al rails to begin with."
Arcing, welding and errosion are serious problems with all solid armatures. With a liquid armature, there could be no welding,
and minimal sparking due to the intimate contact between the armature and the rails. To get such an intimate contact with a
solid armature would add a great deal of friction in comparison.
That is the reason for using a liquid armature.
A liquid slug, as the projectile, would be no good since it would easily vapourise due to the currents, meaning that you no
longer have a projectile, and if it did survive there's no way that a drop of liquid would be stable flying through air at several
km/s.
The teflon slug would not need to be conductive since it is being propelled by the armature. It would be accelerated just fine
due to the huge force exerted on it by the accelerating mercury armature. There is no way that the armature could accelerate
without accelerating the teflon slug.
"Least electrical resistance of all metals so no arcing or welding problems."
The contact between armature and rails will have a significant resistance, leading to arcing and welding.
"Graphite looks pretty good"
In my experience, graphite shatters way too easily. When it contacts the rails, resistance (which is quite high, even without
contact problems) causes massive heating, also there is arcing, and the resultant stresses blow the graphite into little chunks.
Although that was with artist's graphite sticks.
"I didn't know that the caps wouldn't be able to accelerate a plasma jet over ~10km/s."
They could do it, but even with a VERY VERY VERY good and expensive design you're very unlikely to get more than a few km/
s extra. Meaning that you would have spent many $1000's to get from 10 km/s to 12 km/s, when the first ten only cost you
$5 for a SC. Just think what sort of damage you could do with an equal amount of money spent on SC's!!!!!
"it is mentioned that the faster the slug is traveling before it enters the rails the better."
That is very true, I see what you were thinking. I just don't think it'd be at all practical!
"And I believe the military railgun has the slug explosively projected through the rails."
Explosively, perhaps. But not SC jets. Also, they have multi-MJ cap banks, which could provide significant acceleration
compared to the injection speed.
Edit: I just read through my reply, and it sounds a bit rude. It isn't meant to :).
silverleaf March 8th, 2004, 05:49 PM

One thing though, if you use high enough energy to get high speeds, then there is the chance of the rails flexing, due to the
magnetic field's effect on the metal in the rails, plus too much energy and the projectile may weld to the rails, due to arcage,
like that in an arc welder, but one way to curve this, is based on the principal, that the field strengthens with distance, so that
a low force over a longer rail-set, will yield super-high speed, without any arc risks
zhuge liang August 21st, 2004, 11:39 PM

Could the spacing between the rails be far enough so that when the armature is shot between the rails the arc could accelerate
the projectile? And it may eliminate the question of capacitors. Also, the pre-accelerator could be a crossbow, yes?
Also, if you used a thin needle of a solid material, then would it not fly faster, as well as vaporise, when fired?
(In future don't post twice, us the edit function so i don't have to glue your posts together - kingspaz)
Jacks Complete September 2nd, 2004, 07:36 PM

There is a trick you can use to double the effective power out of your railgun, which is very handy when you are dumping your
power too quickly. The answer is to bend your rails, as per the patent I read once (Darned if I can find it though). Basically,
the design calls for double length rails, which are bent back round, to run along with the opposite rail. The current is injected in
the usual way, but because of the "extra" turn in the rails, the inductance goes up a bit, meaning that the current is driven
through slower. However, this is offset by the greater force acting on the armature. This also reduces problems such as arc-
over and flash vapouring your projectile!
The one I tried to build ended up being a very good spot welder. Heated the projectile and spot welded it to the rail when the
"injection" was done by rolling a steel ball bearing down a cardboard tube and onto the rails. Faster injection just meant all the
way down the rails was covered in little spot welds!
s9ar7acu3 September 25th, 2004, 07:48 AM

Google:Ram Accelerator
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=Ram+Accelerator&btnG=Search
Ram> Rail gun
Positively Scalable (efficiency goes up the bigger it is)

Simple(er) to fabricate
Chemical reaction as opposed to Complex electrical system, hence cheaper.
FUTI September 25th, 2004, 01:28 PM

This Ram accelerator is very interesting and I wonder why I didn't heard about this before.
Do you think that sprayed diesel can be used for RAM accelerator just for testing purpose of course?
It should ignite on compresion and you could use an air cylinder to accelerate the projectile to compress the mixture to ignition
point. Do you think this can work?
I think that 7 to 11 km/s is the highest velocity measured with rail or coil guns. It was interesting subject around WWII and
now and then someone try something in this direction but no big breaktrough so far. My advice...abandon the project. I would
rather play with chemical lasers (which are also suspiciously effective) then railgun.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > M203
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View Full Version : M203

I'm transfixe d with this rig. My question isn't at the rig more the 203 am m o, just a question about the shell it fire's, does it fire
the whole thing? or le ave the shell in the breach?
------------------
Mr Cool August 14th, 2001, 03:41 PM

Lol, when I first saw this thread I was like "M2O 3 - what kinda stupid chem ical form ula is that?! And what's it doing in this
section?!"
I know, I'm a bit stupid sometim es! I didn't realise it was an 0 and not a n O!
Anyway, I don't really know anything about wea pons, but if I understand your question correctly then the shell stays in the
breech (or is ejected after the shot), but the projectile leaves the barrel. But maybe you're talking about so m e t h i n g c o m p l e t e l y
different!
C o u l d y o u g i v e a n y m ore information about this M203, to help p eople lik e m e u n d e r s t a n d what you're talking about?!

Sorry, lost myself reading it.
W hen the 20 3 attachm ent is loaded with a cartridge, and then fired, does the whole cartridge fire including the cartridge case,
or just the actual round?
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y V i c t i m (edited August 14, 2001).]

the round leaves and the case is left b e h i n d . h e r e s a d i a g r a m to show how the shell works.
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3 / k i n g s p a z / i m a g e s / b l o o p 1 .gif
[This message has been edited by kin gspaz (edited August 14, 2001).]

Thanks, that explained everything I wanted to know.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Blowguns
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View Full Version : Blowguns
Tyler_Durden February 26th, 2002, 12:44 PM

The last week or so I have been piddling around with different blowgun possibilities in my room. They are so simple, easy to
make, and accurate, but I can't seem to think of a great way to use them as a tactical weapon, other than poison delivery.
Maybe I am hoping for too much, but how else can they be used. It's unlikely you will be able to greatly injure someone with a
dart alone. Or am I mistaken?
Concealment wouldn't be a problem, and of course making a decent blowgun is very easy, but what about the ammo? Needles
seem to be the best as far as the bulk of it, but stabilization that is both effective and durable has been some trouble to me.
So far, the best I have done is to stick the needle through a half inch of shoelace, then fluff out the back end.
I haven't tried much though. Just kinda messed around half-assedly with whatever was within arms reach.
Any ideas?
PYRO500 February 26th, 2002, 04:24 PM

what kinds of blowguns have you been making? ones with a piece of pvc and a needle surrounded with your or what? if you
use a professionally made blow pipe you will see these plastic/metal things with the darts are extremely powerful! with the wire
tipped ones you need pliers to pull them out of a 2 by 4. by themselves they are weak, but witha poison they have much
potential. they could be used for temporary incapacitation of someone if you were to shoot them in the face, these things
would take out an eye easily, or pentrate the cheek, or stick into bone, witch means pain galore for the victim, but as these
things go for defensive weapons they just don't work, if you were gonna get someone, you wait till they walk past you and you
hiding behind some bushes stick them in the face with one of these and run, guranted to put them out for a while.
NoltaiR February 26th, 2002, 06:09 PM

Oh how this topic brings back memories :)
My cousin bought a commercial blow gun that shot little wire-point darts. Well I wanted to show him up so I made a improvised
blow gun out of a 4' long by " ID galvenized aluminum pipe for the 'gun' and a cap to a drawing marker with a nail
superglued to the top of the cap (the part that is closed in).
Although my shots my darts never shot out with near the accuracy and lightning speed that his gun had because my darts
weighed about 50 times as much as his and were about 5 times as large, I could still pull off putting a 1/8" hole in a " thick
peice of plywood at 30 feet away just because my darts had so much force upon impact. While his little darts would just stick in
the plywood (however you are right about needing to use pliers to get those damn miniature darts out).
Anyways we even got past the stage of just randomly shooting darts and went to go find some frogs.. once we were good
enough to get a frog at least 5 feet way (which was simple for his gun put took a hell of a lot of luck for my gun) we went to
find grasshoppers (less than 1" long) to shoot. Now he could easily get one from about 3 to 4 feet away but I had to be about
a foot away and still I only managed to get it once or twice before giving up. Anyways the main difference was that while he
could get it on the first shot and would momentarily stun the frog before jumping off, when I shot mine into the frog, you
could hear bones crack and it didn't move anywhere :rolleyes:
Well so much for my stories, I have heard of people making darts similar to my homemade ones and instead of using a nail,
they would use a BB stuck to a few grams of AP which is somehow binded to the cap. When the dart would impact, the BB
would set off the AP. Now if you can get good with this, then you could pick off vehicles at about 30+ feet away.
Jack Ruby March 1st, 2002, 08:45 AM

In the FTP there is A .Doc file titled BtoD.doc.
It is written by someone calling them self, "Agent Blak of C-Spec"...?
The file Talks about making darts from Syring lungers and the Hypodermic Needle. The blow Pipe is made from a length of
PVC.
I tried this design out and it work great.
xoo1246 March 1st, 2002, 01:35 PM

Tactical application, as what? A weapon of the assassin? Tell me more about i.
DBSP March 1st, 2002, 11:04 PM

I just thought of a sutible job for a blowgun. If you could get a dart to carry either poison as PYRO suggested or a paralyser or
something it could be used to take out guard dogs safely and quietly. A blowgun is guite silet if you compare it with a
shotgun or even a 22.
Madog555 March 2nd, 2002, 12:38 PM

i got a comercial blowgun. once i shot it into the aluminum downspout on my house. it penitrared through and was sticking out
into the inside of it like 1cm.
my uncle used to make blowguns from 3/4inch copper pipe when he was in the navy. they would be big (like 5 feet) and the
dart was made from a nail put in the front of a paper cone that fit the pipe.
well, one day he and his friend were talkin about them and a skeptical guy overherd. so my uncle took his blow gun, loaded it,
pointed it at a nearby building with a concrete foundation and shot it. the dart stuck right into the concrete foundation of the
building.
Agent Blak is a member from the old forum, i wonder where he went, i hope he turns up.
that AP thing sounds awsome, but if it goes off in the tube that is in your mouth thats gonna hurt.
if u put one into someones eye just right it may penetrate into the brain.
[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: Madog ]
MacCleod March 2nd, 2002, 08:21 PM

I have a blowgun a friend made for me out of 5/8th. i.d. electrical conduit that works well.We made darts for it from 4-1/2 in.
segments of stainless steel wire which we sharpened.For the end we used bell-shaped foam earplugs (MAX brand,from Howard
Leight industries).We'd heat the wire,then stick it up through the center of the plug.These fit the pipe perfectly,and are quite
powerful,have to be pulled out with pliers.It's pretty accurate up to about 30 ft.
Yi March 5th, 2002, 11:54 AM

My friend & I used to use paper cones with nails through them, but found the paper cones get wet and break. Also the nail is
fairly short and heavy. Then we found that blowgun darts made out of thin springsteel wire (~1mm maybe slightly less), with
one end sharpened and one end flattened with a hammer, pushed through a cone made out of the stuff they wrap flowers in.
They work very well and accurately.

I bought one. For $4 I didn't see any reason not to. Also, I got 50 practice darts for about $5.
The practice ones are, like you say, that thin steel stuff. There are also stun darts, paintballs, broadhead darts of some kind,
and some other kind I forget the name.
I can hit a circle of about 2" radius 9/10 times from a spot about 15 feet away. Not bad.
xoo1246 March 5th, 2002, 09:46 PM

Get a scope... :)
Jack Ruby March 6th, 2002, 11:14 AM

When I aim my Blow Pipe I use line of sight(looking down the tube; not through) with both eyes open.
Distance is aproximated to a just your tragectory.
How do you fellows aim yours.

Scopes are not very practical, but I don't doubt someone sells them.
I thought about that also... aiming... and I tried many different things. I tried both eyes, and using just one never worked. I
tested keeping my focus at different points, on the tip of the blowgun, the target, in between, etc.
What I found was that, for me, the best system is to switch focuses between the tip of the gun and the target, but before you
shoot, be focusing on the target. The aim is sort of instinctual and natural.
This is exactly what you are supposed to do when playing pool/billiards. I shoot a lot of pool, so this system of aiming fits me
pretty well... and it seems like the best solution so far.
I am always open to suggestions though. I may be wrong.
Jack Ruby March 6th, 2002, 05:26 PM

I shoot a lot of pool... Usually 8-Ball.
It is great for keeping the mind sharp and intinctove aiming.
inferno April 15th, 2002, 06:03 AM

There was a site i lost when my comp crashed, it was <a href="http://www.defence-systems.com"
target="_blank">www.defence-systems.com</a> or something (tried that it doesnt work) and anyway they sold commercial
blowguns, 12-72 inches (12, 18, 36, 48, 72) and commercial target arrows, and paintballs.
Twas a great site, they also sold everything from knuckledusters to pepper spray to slingshots to bb guns to stun guns! Oh
and did i meantion tasers? That site is great but if u want it, id do a search. Was called defence systems or something, search
for blowguns on google or something.
Cricket April 15th, 2002, 05:48 PM

I used to have a blow gun, but my brother bent it so I made some detonators out of it. Once I was sitting and surfing the
Internet(here probably) and I saw this mouse run across the kitchen floor so I loaded up my blowgun. Then I saw him again. I
turned right (he stoped for about .25 second) and began blowing (the blowgun) before I was even on target and somehow it
all worked and I stuck him in his left eye and into the kitchen floor (not carpet). He was eeking and jumping around
everywhere, but he was pinned to the floor because the dart was stuck in there. It was so funny. And then I saw another one
so I did the exact same thing to him, even in the left eye. I was so amazed, still am. I never was that gooda shot even if I
had time to aim. And with these detonators I made, I only used them like firecrackers (AP only, no secondary). They were fun.
I bought it at the Winnermaker (spelt wrong) Gun Show (said to be the biggest in the world). It was about $14 for the gun, 50
very sharp darts, 50 stun darts, and the grip and dart holder stuff. Oh and also, you can make a neat little sight by duct
taping a laser pen to your gun and sighting it in. You have be a little more careful with it though or you bump it and it goes off
sight and you have to either hold the on button (unless it has a continous switch) or make something to hold it for you. It
works with paintball guns too. Bye.
[ April 15, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
Zero April 15th, 2002, 10:14 PM

Memories, indeed.
I used to make little tiny 1/4 inch blowguns out of pens and later brass tubing. I made darts from cut off coffee stirrers,
straight pins, and yes, epoxy putty. Making the darts balanced took a bit of practice, but once you get it down you can crank
those suckers out.
I would take my toys to school (where several of my friends were improvised small arms enthusiasts - spitball launchers, straw
shooters, &c.) and proceed to cause all sorts of trouble. I'll wager there are still little yellow straw darts in the cafeteria ceiling
to this day...
Regardless, my meek little straw darts didn't do much damage at all. Certainly noting beyond irritating the target no end.
They were, however, extremely accurate if constructed properly. I had a few kicking around for a while that I shot at my
dartboard. I could repeatedly stack one dart inside the other from across the room...
I probably still have my full auto launcher around here someplace. I should dig it out and post pictures.
mark April 16th, 2002, 12:33 AM

What should i shoot out of this little baby? I know its not a blowgun, but it would shoot similar things.
<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/userimages/276.jpg" alt="" />
BoB- April 16th, 2002, 05:42 AM

For simple and cheap, just pick up some cheap Q-tips at a department store (cheaper prices), instead of rolled up paper like
normal Q-tips use, the cheaper ones use a hollow plastic tube to connect the cotton. Just cut one in half, and super-glue a
sharpened finishing nail about a 1/4" into the hollow tube. If your barell is bigger than the cotton tip, just "fluff" it out a bit
until you get a seal.
Sure, they wont take major punishment like store bought darts, but who cares? it take less than an hour to make hundreds.
Oh, and if they arent flying right, try lengthening the nail, if that doesnt work try lengthening the Q-tip half.
Be *very* careful with a blowgun you intend to use poisonous darts with, the entire barell, the quiver, and sometimes the
mouthpeice get covered in poison.
I've killed many rabbits with my 4' blowgun and the darts mentioned above, 2 in the stomach or one in the head usually does
it, and how do I fire 2 shots at a moving object? with one these; the coolest blowgun accessory ever!
<a href="http://www.alaskabestpawn.com/image10a.gif" target="_blank">http://www.alaskabestpawn.com/image10a.gif</a>
A blowgun repeater magazine! You should be able to find one of these wherever blowguns are sold, but they're kindve
expensive, mine was $20.
mark April 16th, 2002, 08:38 PM

I made some mini blowdarts today! They take about a minite to make each, and there pretty fun to shoot.
<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/ubb/userpics/209.jpg" alt="" />
skeleton_keys April 27th, 2002, 06:35 PM

The last few weeks I've been tinkering with a CO2 powered blowgun. I bought a "CO2 Power Handle" from Blowgunsnw.com,
which works pretty well for distances of about 5-20 feet. The only problem is, the handle only works with 12 gram CO2
canisters. I bought a 20 oz. CO2 tank and a remote line, and tried attaching it to the head of the power handle. When I
cranked on the CO2, the handle started leaking like crazy, and wouldn't fire as accurately or powerfully as it had with just the
12 gram cartridges. I've been trying to build a wrist mounted, three-shot-at-a-time dart gun, and so far the only thing
stumping me is how to get a valve that wouldn't allow the CO2 to leak, and preferably could be operated by pushing a button
instead of squeezing a lever or twisting the stem. Any thoughts? I've got almost the whole thing built, except for that one
snag.

Dunno if this will help, but you can dummy 12gm cylinders which have a standard CO2 sized threaded fitting on them. Used for
converted CO2 airguns and crap paintball guns to run on refillable bottles.
mark May 1st, 2002, 12:27 AM

Does anyone know how I could make a 40 caliber dart that detonates a 22 caliber blank on impact? I just got a real blowgun
today, so any help would be apreciated.
A-BOMB May 1st, 2002, 02:21 AM

Mark, making the darts easy but its the blowing the dart out the barrel with anothe speed and power to fire the blank. Just put
some Armstrongs in a straw thats got one end filled with hot glue, and put on of those sharp steel darts in it and fire at some
thing hard. Thats what I did.
mongo blongo May 1st, 2002, 03:51 PM

I got an interesting idea about poison darts.
When a bee stings you it leaves behind it's stinger. This stinger is like a hollow barbed needle with a bag of venom attached
to it. If you try to pull the stinger out you will end up squeezing the bag of venom which injects even more venom into the
victim.
Right you all probably knew that. My idea is exactly that, but using a small hypodermic needle and some type of bag
containing something like Hydrogen Cyanide as the dart. It would be even better if the needle was barbed to make it harder
to pull out.
As soon as the unsuspecting victim is shot, :mad: it will be instinctive for him to try to pull it out.
The need for some kind of elaborate injecting system will no longer be needed as the victim will do it for himself. :p
Well not really my idea, it was rather mother nature's. :)
nbk2000 May 1st, 2002, 05:55 PM

I've taken tiny blood sampling pipets from the doctors office. These things have a bulb about the size of a pea, with a tube
about 1/4" long.
It'd hold probably a tenth of a milliliter, but with HCN or similiar, that's more than enough.
Solder a straightened out fishing hook to a sports ball inflation needle, with the pipet glued in it. When shot, the victim will
attempt to pull it out, injecting themselves. This would indeed save you from having to create some complicated mechanism
to do the injecting.
Wicked May 1st, 2002, 06:46 PM

Can you send me like, a few hundred of those? I wanna go shoot a few people I hate on the bike trail with them while I'm
sitting in a tree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Actually, 10-20 should do.
mark May 1st, 2002, 08:29 PM

Haha. Haha. Haha. How clever you are.
mongo blongo May 2nd, 2002, 09:49 PM

That's good NBK! That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of! But wouldn't a sports ball inflation needle be a little too thick?
The injection needle should be very short so that when shot into the victim, the only thing outside the body should be the bag
of poison to ensure that he pules it out by the bag.
If you could put some bristles around the bag, it would not only make the dart fly straight but disguises the bag of poison to
the victim.
Zach May 2nd, 2002, 11:56 PM

at the size of a pea the bulb would most likley just look like a plastic ball. and think about it- when a misquito bites you (and
you feel it) what do you automatically do? you slap at it.
ive been shot with blowdarts, the long ones that are between 2 and 3 inches long, and what i did was clutch at the area of pain
and drove the dart a little deeper.(i didnt know that id been shot)
i dont think disguising it is a problem, and the shorter the dart is generally the less stable it is.
Wicked May 6th, 2002, 02:55 PM

True, the only problem I see though, is that the venom would discharge if you held it wrong, or if you shot it too fast, so nbks
idea is good, but id just cut the sheeth its in into smaller pieces. The problem with the tastles or whathave you, is that they
would be harder to make, asin something fuzzy or somewhat in what I see. I've got my good ol' bomber blowgun here, and
when you shoot, if it doesnt fit enough, it won't launch. Sooooooo :rolleyes: it would haveto be a very good tastle :p
nbk2000 May 6th, 2002, 04:15 PM

You'd want the inflator needle because of it's sturdiness. A needle meant for injection (syringe) is too flimsy to survive an
impact from a launcher without bending or breaking. An inflator needle is VERY thick and will easily penetrate clothes and skin
at speed.
Plus the thickness of the needle allows for soldering on of the barbs, and the large bore insures almost instantaneous
injection of all the poison.
Also, the heavy needle makes the injector dart tip heavy, ensuring stability in flight.
If a person had a plug in the needle made of a rapidly soluble salt, and an elasticly compressed poison bulb, then the dart
should automatically inject the toxin upon embedding itself in flesh, wheter or not the target grabs it. :)
Ctrl_C May 6th, 2002, 04:31 PM

what about building (or obtaining?) small syringes that use the momentum of the dart to push the syringe plunger in?

I think that'd be too hard.

Wicked: One liners like that don't really help anyone. What is helpful is if you add *why* you think it would be too hard.
People are unfortunately, or fortunately not telepathic so you need to explain yourself.
mongo blongo May 6th, 2002, 11:35 PM

NBK- I see your reasoning. Maybe the needle could be sharpened a bit more to be extra sure the penetration occurs? Maybe
some lead weight could be used to get a better momentum.
Do you know what these blood sampling pipets are called by any chance?
Thanx!
mark May 7th, 2002, 12:37 AM

I just dreated this little gadget the other day. Its for shooting heavy darts, but I shot a target dart right through 1/2" wood with
it.

Shit marc, you got createive there, good idea, maybe its possible to just make a handheld with a pipe and a spring, then a
small plunger, anyways, I'm going to try and play with your idea, I like it :) I betcha a pvc pipe would be good enough :)
mark May 7th, 2002, 10:29 PM

Thank you. I had another hit of creativty today. Im ade a fairly safe exploding dart that goes off nicley on concrete when fired
from my stomp gun.
PYRO500 May 7th, 2002, 10:42 PM

are those cartredge primers attached to stun (plastic) darts? why are they off center?
Tyler_Durden May 7th, 2002, 10:44 PM

Mark! PLEASE explain yourself more thoroughly! I have no fucking clue what either of those pictures mean!
Don't just give us a vague, cryptic explanation of the picture and your "invention". Explain what it's made with, how it works,
how you made it, and whatever else you can provide that you think would be useful to us.
I am going to guess that the first picture is a device to give you more power in the blow gun... more specifically, you stomp on
that bottle to force the air through the tube and out the blowgun, which would be more powerful than just blowing it.
Am I correct? What do I win?
As for the second picture, it looks like commercial stun darts with small copper-looking things carefully placed on top of them
to make them look explosive.
Am I correct? What more do I win?
mark May 7th, 2002, 11:24 PM

You win a reproachful glance due to your mockery of my high resolution, if indeed poorley explained pictures. You were right
about the first picture, it is indeed a stomp rocket type of device. You were wrong about the second picture. Those are 22
caliber blanks that are fitted into a hole in the dart.
Pyro500, there crooked because they were drilled with a hand drill and my vice kept slipping.

Heh heh, I tryed to use some gunpowder in a container, and used an estes modle rocket ignighter to set it off, well, I shot the
dart through a sinder block,,,,,,, whoops :rolleyes: anyways, I'm going to figure out some better ideas, maybe something
more household and something thats more burny than exploseive. My g'ol' plaster of paris + gasoline was nice, maybe if
I................................................. :D
xoo1246 May 8th, 2002, 04:11 PM

Not really related but almost: I made myself a simple pipe gun with a thin but heave walled metal piple, maybe 30 cm long. I
used a small amount of electrically fired gunpowder to propell a nail dart. It worked well(didn't sound much (pop)and
penetrated maybe 2cm hard wood at 1,5 meters distance). Maybe one could substitute the nail arrow and use a lead bullet,
this way createing a simple single-fire pen gun.(no need for any mechanical work) I used a 9v battery but this could be
changed to a smaller 1,5 v(using a micro-bulb as igniton source).
Good for assassinations and such. :p
[ May 08, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

I'm not picking on you dude, but please refrain from posting unless you have a point to make. If you did have a point then it
made absolutely no sense
[ May 09, 2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
Lazy01001 May 13th, 2002, 11:38 PM

Ahh the blowgun, what an awesome weapon. You all had different methods of aiming. The way I aim is pretty much 100%
guess work. But, I guess i shouldnt really call it guess work, since I have had the gun for about 7 months. I belive I am
almost 90% accurate. I love the idea of the 22 blanks!!!!! :D But I have pretty much no clue on how to make it. A little help?
inferno May 20th, 2002, 03:33 AM

This isnt a lethal weapon or anything, but a metal tube i found, about an inch in diamter, could shoot little balls of gladwrap
with excellent accuracy, about 10 metres. The tube is about a foot long. A poster i have with an actual target on it, could be
shot on the 1 inch bullseye about 4/5 times from 15 feet away. Thats just balls of glad wrap, nothing special. And i just aimed
it from instinct.
Blowguns are pretty accurate. Good darts can be made from those ear-wax cleaner things, cotton buds. You know, the ones
with the little balls of cotton on each end of a plastic tube. Well anyway, cut off one end, get a needle, melt the plastic with a
lighter for a few seconds and insert the needle. The plastic dries hard around it. They can be shot out of ballpoint pen cases
with reasonable accuracy. They can just stick into wood, but not very far.
Jack Ruby May 23rd, 2002, 07:50 PM

"what about building (or obtaining?) small syringes that use the momentum of the dart to push the syringe plunger in?"
I tried this a while back. I even tried putting a fishing weight on the back of the plunger.
Didn't work at all. The raneg was also very limited. Sorry if I bust and bubbles.
mongo blongo May 23rd, 2002, 08:06 PM

Yea I had that idea too. :(
What about a very thin syringe. Pull the plunger out, put a small lead ball in it (not too small, just small enough to move
through the tube freely), seal the end where the plunger was. Fill it with your poison and when it comes to shooting, make sure
the ball is at the back of the tube. On impact the lead ball will be thrown forward pushing the liquid out. Not all the poison
would be injected but with HCN that's not a problem.
Does anyone know how tranquilizer darts work?
kingspaz May 24th, 2002, 05:55 PM

how about the ball hitting a primer or somthing. the primer could then shoot the toxin into the victim.
EP May 24th, 2002, 07:26 PM

I'm looking for diagrams of tranquilizer darts, but all I have found so far is a couple pictures.
<a href="http://www.pneudart.com/images/darts/high_dart_lineY.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.pneudart.com/images/darts/

high_dart_lineY.jpg</a>
BoB- May 26th, 2002, 04:39 AM

Kingspaz sortve described it, an inertially detonated primer launches the plunger from a tiny syringe forward with the gas's
generated. NBK explained it a few years back (where is that dude?).
An inertial switch isnt that hard to make, the sensitive side of the primer faces a striker which is held away from it by a spring,
when inetia takes over the weighted striker keeps moving, closing the spring, and detonating the primer. You should be able
to do it with a few bits of telescoping antenna.
McGuyver May 27th, 2002, 01:28 PM

Does anyone know of a poison that will kill almost instantly-one that attacks the central nervous system and paralyzes the
pest. NBK mentioned sodium fluoride in an earlier thread about killing dogs, but I'm pretty sure it takes at least a few hours.
The poison ingredients must be easy to obtain. I don't feel like going to Africa just to some poison. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I know about the ones the Indians use and that can only be found there. I'm probably asking a
bit much here, but oh well. The poison would preferably be easy to apply to darts and not be dangerous unless it enters the
bloodstream.

they smear the points of their darts on poison arrow frogs if thats anyhelp at all...
nbk2000 May 28th, 2002, 02:15 AM

Only poison arrow tree frogs in their native enviroment are toxic. Domestically raised poison arrow tree frogs, or those long
since captured, are non-toxic. It turns out that the frogs absorb and concentrate toxins they get from the venomous insects
they eat in the wild.
For us, hydrogen cyanide, nicotin sulphate, or lab concentrated organophosphate pesticides would be the quickest killers,
taking only a minute or two to kill.
There's also succinylcholine chloride, which will almost instantly paralyze, before suffocating to death, a victim. But you'd have
to get that from a chemical supplier, thus paper trail.
I mentioned NaF because of it's cheapness and ease of availability.
nbk2000 May 28th, 2002, 10:35 PM

Seeing how you have the plastic "stun" darts, I got the idea of using them as sabots for firing steel flechette darts. The design
would be similar to the tank sabot rounds.
This picture of a tank sabot round seperating in flight has been altered to include a serrated flechette in it.
<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Flechette_Sabot.jpg" alt="" />
You can buy a pound of 1.5" steel flechettes for $5 in the US. That's 800 darts for $5.
The serrations are added on the flechette to allow for toxins or germs to be carried into the target.
Also, the idea of a stomp pump is good.
For a CO2 powered blowgun, you could possibly adapt something I noticed once. If you use a spring loaded center punch set
to "hard", and use it on the seal of a powerlet, the entire powerlet will instantly discharge with a POP sound. 12 grams of CO2
gas in less than a blink of an eye.
So, I'm thinking you could install an immovable centerpunch in a blowgun with the point of the punch pointing towards the
mouthpiece. A powerlet in a tube (that slides over the blowgun tube) is pressed against the punch till it discharges, firing off
the saboted flechette at high velocity (much faster than lung or stomp).
Now, if the blowgun tube was strong enough, you could neck it down at the business end and use a sliding stopper to seal the
blowgun, retaining the noise, thus having a silent flechette launcher. Similar idea to the silent projector described in the black
book series.
Nico June 1st, 2002, 04:36 PM

There's a neat little piece here about use of an improvised blowgun:
<a href="http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/fiction/windsofchange-ninja.pdf">The Girl And The Ninja</a>
ShotgunsAreFun June 5th, 2002, 08:20 AM

What about modifying a blowgun to be powered by a CO2 cartridge(can get 10 of them for AU$4) with a trigger? Could make a
spring loaded stripper type magazine for it without much trouble I would think. But then again, I haven't tried so I wouldn't
know.
Fukineh December 9th, 2002, 11:26 PM

I shot a marble at my friend using one of my pneumatic cannon barrels as a blowgun with pleasing results. Since the 3/4 "
barrel has female adapters on it to attach on to the 1 1/4 " male adapter on my cannon, it provides a nice "cup" to blow into
just like the commercial blowguns have. Is this relevant; not really, but it's an easy way to make high caliber blow dart guns
out of PVC. Or of course you could just flare the end like PVC darts are made, a more practical and probably better method.
germanic December 22nd, 2002, 03:38 PM

eeehm, those ideas are nice but they're not blowguns. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> anyways,
wouldn't it be easy to just make a paper cone with a needle in the front. If you file a tiny bit into the needle, so that it will
break of when someone tries to pull it out. that would leave a horrible itch. and if you dip the tip of the needle into poison or
heavy metal you might even leave a horrible itch. :) just a few ideas.
heaton3805 January 23rd, 2003, 10:59 PM

Why don't you guys just do what ACTUAL assassins have been doing for over 3,000 years??? Run the needles through melted
wax, bounce the thing across across the blade of a knife, dip in substance of choice and allow to dry...
Also, me and friends have used Novicain for years...It's funny to watch people fall and squirm and it works quite fast as well :D
Anthony January 23rd, 2003, 11:38 PM

It'd be interesting to know where you supposedly got Novocaine, and why your targets dropped instantly when it typically takes
2-5 mins to take effect.
It'd also be interesting to know why you'd be stupid enough to go shooting people up with an uncertain amount of powerful
anaesthetic. Further yet, why despite being knocked down rapidly with must be a large dose, why none of your "targets" died
or suffered other severe symptoms.
We don't take kindly to bullshiters here, so let's hope you're telling the truth...
nbk2000 January 23rd, 2003, 11:48 PM

I was able to (back in the mid-90s) buy lido/nova/procains for less than $10/lb, over the counter in 'frisco, from chemical
suppliers, no questions asked. These are considered "harmless" substances.
Also, maybe he's meaning that the darts would numb a leg so much that it'd be "dead" and they couldn't support their weight
on it, thus falling?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, so use this opprotunity to explain yourself and what you did, before you
"vanish", eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Also, it seems really rather stupid to be shooting people with a drugged blowgun dart for shits and giggles. I don't think the
police would think it very funny, though your new husband, "Bubba", might find it hilarious. :D
heaton3805 January 24th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Thank you NBK. Yes, I did mean that it would numb my "targets" leg. And we use to buy this stuff in a small plastic bucket
type container for around $15 at a low grade medical store. Also, we were not just shooting these things at random people, we
use to have little "bouts" of sorts with these darts. I am not using any bull shit at all here, sorry if it sounds so...
Spaced Monkey 2002 February 22nd, 2003, 06:25 PM

I don't know whether this product is any good, but I found this on a home security webpage.
<a href="http://protectiondevices.com/blowguns_2.html" target="_blank">http://protectiondevices.com/blowguns_2.html</a>
You need to cut your sig down to two lines maximum!
[ February 22, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: J ]
Skean Dhu March 6th, 2003, 06:00 PM

i've noticed that almost everyone has had troubles with stabilizing the darts.
::3 simple steps for stabilizing darts::
1)take some yarn and wrap it around your first three fingers (like you make a monkey's fist knot) and then wrap twice
horizontaly around the middle to hold it together.
2) stick your dart through the area around the knot ie;the center
after that tape/glue it in place and cut the loops of yarn so you can make it all fuzzy.
3) trim it flush with the end of your dart, do this by sticking it down your blowgun until you can't push the end.
the fuzz should cover the last 1/3 of your dart
chemofun May 24th, 2004, 12:46 AM

about poisons that are easy to get for darts...you could probably get some off the skin of a puffer fish. I have a puffer fish as
a pet. It was cheap and is pretty easy to take care of. I dont know if you can just rub a dart on them though. I do however
know that they produce a lethal nerve toxin called TTX i blelieve, Tetrodotoxin. I don't know for sure how to extract it but i
know it would work well. You should look it up in more detail.
nbk2000 May 24th, 2004, 01:46 PM

Puffer fish toxin is contained in the ovaries and liver of the fish, so you can't "rub a dart on it" and get the poisonous effects.
You can't even do that with captive Poison Dart frogs (actual name :)) because they get their toxicity from the poisonous
insects they eat in the jungle, something domestic crickets and worms wouldn't provide. :(
Now, if you had a stone fish, then you could do the dart trick by pulling out one of its spines, which contain the venom and are
disposable as far as the fish is concerned, and attaching it to your dart. They're about 60% fatal, and pure agony for weeks
afterwards if the victim survives.
I found one available for sale for $400 at a fish store once, by asking the owner if he knew where to get one, and he knew
someone who had them.
akinrog May 24th, 2004, 07:27 PM

While reading through this thread, I remembered a fact that I noticed when I was reading an entomology book.
According to this book TEPP (Tetra Ethyl Pyrophosphate (sp?) or Pyrophosphoric acid tetraethyl ester) is supertoxic for humans.
TEPP is a simple organophosphate insecticide which is ceased to be used due to its supertoxicity for mammals.
Anyway when I researched over the net about its toxicty, I came up with this link (http://hazard.com/msds/tox/gw.cgi?
query=TEPP&whole=partial&start=0) which shows toxicity of various TEPP derivatives. In the first link which this URL gives
(TEPP) the lowest lethal toxicity is 1700 ug(microgram) /kg (oral - human), 286 ug/kg and 380 ug/kg (intramuscular -
human), 71 ug/kg (parenteral - human), LD50 2400 ug/kg (transdermal - rat) etc. etc.
However only downside with this compound AFAIK and IIRC, it is incompatible with the metals. They corrodes the metals and is
being decomposed by them. In addition how fast it acts I don't know. Maybe somebody may shed a light on it HTH.
rolynd June 3rd, 2004, 01:27 PM

There are some tranqilizer darts that use compressed air to inject the contents of the dart to the animal. They work quite easy
and should not be too hard to duplicate. The tip of the dart is solid with a tiny hole 2mm behind the tip, at the side of the
needle. They are loaded from the backside with the tranquilizing agent, then closed with a cap which has a small valve in it.
Through this air is injected with a normal 20ml syringe to create an overpressure inside of the dart. To prevent the liquid from
being pushed out to early you just stick the tip into a tiny piece of rubberlike plastic/PVC first(before loading). When the dart
hits the animal the tiny rubberpiece is pushed up the needle and when the neddle enters the animal the tranquilizing agent(
or poison) is delivered.
Mr. Toliver June 5th, 2004, 05:11 PM

One of the best commercial guns out there is put out by Cold Steel knives. It it has a 5/8" bore and comes with four styles of
darts. The blowgun and a slug of darts is only $20. It really packs a wallop.
www.coldsteel.com
tdog49 August 21st, 2004, 12:06 AM

Went squirrel hunting this week, using a .62 cal blowgun and darts made from welding wire. (specifically Railbuild 540 5/64). I
was kinda skeptical at first but am now a true believer. I cant hit crap beyond 10 ft but my partner is pretty good and we took
several at about 20-25 ft.
milobloom March 3rd, 2005, 12:14 PM

I use a 1/2 piece of PVC piping with darts that are made of a paper cone (something fairly stiff, such as manilla tag) and bit
of metal hanger (like you hang clothes on), sharpened on grinder, then held together with epoxy or superglue. The darts are
somewhat heavy, but usually come out fairly balanced, and can penetrate through plywood over 1/4 inch thick, no problem.
meselfs June 14th, 2005, 02:18 AM

http://www.geocities.com/blowgunhunter/
Proof that commercial blowguns suck :->
From that site:
"At this range, a dart will go completely through its [squirrel] chest, and be stopped only by the dart head."
Am going to bicylce to the hardware shop tommorow (20 km: one of the few disadvantages of rural life) and get the
components.
meselfs June 14th, 2005, 02:18 AM

http://www.geocities.com/blowgunhunter/
Proof that commercial blowguns suck :->
From that site:
"At this range, a dart will go completely through its [squirrel] chest, and be stopped only by the dart head."
Am going to bicylce to the hardware shop tommorow (20 km: one of the few disadvantages of rural life) and get the
components.
_SAS_ January 23rd, 2007, 08:09 AM

Just on the topic of making blowguns and ammo...
I have always enjoyed blowguns since I can remember, mainly because they can be easily produced cost efficiently as well as
being tactically advantageous in certain situations because of there range and silence.
I make my darts from Kebab sticks (still fairly strong and robust - but not to light) and attaching hand made paper cones to
the end of each stick by means of glue. This way you can mass produce ammo in minimal time with a quality result.
As for the blowpipe itself, I use the curtain rail type of pipe (easy to find, plus I have never needed to employ a blowpipe in a
tactical type of situation.)
Hope this is useful to someone.
Charon January 24th, 2007, 10:20 PM

I have a fairly good working knowledge of blowguns, I've used them for hunting as well as for other tactical uses (pranks,
dynamic building entry, blowing up the neighbors prized koi pond) well, alot of that was exaggerated but hell here goes,
First, the best blowgun material i've found is glass (the big long tubes they use for glass blowing, making research and
medical equipment blah blah blah)
It provides the least amount of friction and very little weight, however since it is brittle and has a tendency to shatter, a nice
metal sleeve is nice to have for it too.
Secondly, ammo can be made from a ton of different materials, wood, metal, coat hangers, exacto blades, and as far as
fletching, i've found that a frayed end of some parachord or mylar works really well.
Now as far as tactical uses are concerned, blowguns are used for alot more than killing living organisms, they are excellent
deception tools, shoot out a light bulb or a window, it definetely is something that destracts people. A blowgun can even be
used for building entry, hitting elevator keys and keypad numbers.
As far as poisons, since lethality from a blowgun isn't that easy of a thing to kill someone with, even if you hit someone
intravenously (sp?) you would need a mighty good poison to take someone out, plus if you do kill someone, you run the risk
with authorities, I've used a posion made from ants (take a bajillion red fire ants, put them in a pot and poil them down to a
nice red sludge, there you go) and let me tell you whoever gets hit with that will drop and start crying.
nbk2000 January 25th, 2007, 10:10 PM

I'm crying now that I see I let the previous post slip through un-deleted, and the poster un-banned. :rolleyes:
I really need to get more sleep.

Tell us, oh Ninja Master, how the fuck you perform a dynamic building entry using a blowgun?
ShadowMyGeekSpace January 27th, 2007, 12:42 PM

That post brings one word to mind: Wow.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Portable EMP gun
Log in
View Full Version : Portable EMP gun
J August 14th, 2001, 03:47 PM

I'm thinking about making a portable EMP gun. This w as inspired by the radio at work playing incredibly shite music all day long, driving me crazy. It w ould be nice to have a
permanent off sw itch ;-) I probably w on't get round to building it in time though :-(
I'm thinking about simply getting a 400v, 1000uf cap charged upto 380v (to give a margin, wouldn't want to waste a 15 cap), and discharging this using an SCR into a coil of
around 8 to 12 turns of fairly thick wire. By my calculations, this w ould be discharging just over 70J into the coil, and this would create an EM pulse when the field collapsed.
Does anybody know if this would be pow erful enough to destroy an electronic device at about 10 to 15 feet? Also, I'd like to make it directional by perhaps using Al foil to shield
the back part of the gun. Any comments?
From the limitted things I've read about EMP weapons, it seems a small number of turns is required. Does 8 to 12 sound reasonable?
The w eapon must be fairly quiet, so no spark gaps can be used either in place of the SCR or the antenna.
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view= l)

I think a spark gap surrounded in foam to reduce noise w ould be the way to go, with a HV cap (10-20kV, a few dozen nF), forming an LC resonant circuit like a Tesla coil
primary. I still haven't tested my version of this yet http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif.
Obviously this couldn't be done w ith semiconductors.
Just imagine how fun it'd be to zap S-club 7 music http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

I've heard of a design when a high amperage current passes through a coil that is round arround cylinder of explosive. The coil ends with antenna. When the current is passed
the explosive is detonated, it destroys the coil and that produces a EMP pulse that is transmitted through the antenna.
Have you got reliable sources of info about EMP? Are the antenna and the coil destroyed by the capacitor discharging?

You're talking about bomb-type designs (Explosively-pumped magnetic flux compression generators IIRC), in the thing J's talking about it'd be totally re-usable, but the one you
describe is single use as they contain large amounts of HE which blast the thing to pieces.
I don't have much info, just a fairly basic knowledge in electronics.
J August 14th, 2001, 05:54 PM

Simply Red, the type you're thinking of w as discussed in New Scientist last year (I think). I had a quick look through someone else's copy, if anyone has this article I'd be really
greatful for a scan :-)
It w as as you described, with the wire wrapped around an Al tube, not touching. A high power capacitor is connected to the tube and wire, which closes the circuit w hen the
explosive is detonated, due to the tube expanding into the w ire (the explosive is contained in the tube). As the shockwave propagates, the coil is destroyed, forcing the
magnetic field to collapse. This causes an enormous EM pulse, which will apparently destroy all electronic devices within a several hundred meter radius.
Only 1 or 2 pounds of high explosive (I think it w as TNT in the article) is needed, but design is critical and I think there is charge shaping. Unless the article left something major
out, I think one of these would be within the capability of many people here, with some experimentation.
Mr Cool, generating more than a thousand volts or so will be difficult in a portable device that can fit in a small bag. The cap would have to be huge, and an ignition coil or other
large transformer w ould be needed unless very slow charging was acceptable. If it w as to be vehicle mounted though...
I think 70J would be enough to do some damage, because my stun gun (homemade) causes my monitor to flicker w hen it's within a foot or tw o. It only puts out 0.2 to 0.3
joules per pulse, and the EM energy is released through the spark gap.
------------------

The design I've seen uses an HMX-based PBX. The device will be a metre long at least, and I'm guessing that the tube in the middle would be at least 10cm in diameter. That'd
be about 12kg of explosives, but they come in all sorts of sizes I expect.
The cap bank is just connected to the wire - when the tube hits it, it shorts it out thus shortening the length of the coil and the number of turns. I suppose VoD of the explosive
used determines the pulse characteristics.
The HE is a plain cylinder, but it's important that the detonation w ave has a uniform front, and that the coil is shorted more or less perpendicular to the axis of the coil.
I was thinking that one shouldn't be too hard to make, with a suitably sized cap bank.
The cap in my design would not have to be huge. I have a load of 60nF 20kV caps 20cm long, and 4cm in diameter. Charging would be slow, but you wouldn't need a rapid fire
device. Commercial stun guns can produce several hundred kV in a device about 8" long from a 9V battery. So although it w ouldn't be hand-held, it'd certainly fit in a small bag!
Hey, I did see a program on non-lethal weapons a while back, where they demonstrated a HPM device in a caravan or something. A big Marx bank pulsed power to a
magnetron with superconducting magnets, it w as pretty cool! Apparently it could be used to cause enemy planes to fall out the sky (remember: the WEAPONS aren't lethal, but
they didn't make any claims about the crash!)
My design would be much more efficient I think, since the circuit is allowed to resonate. This produces a decaying burst of RF, but in your design there would be one spike and it
wouldn't be allowed to resonate, so the rest of the energy would go into heat (I think). Also you'll need some sort of protection for that SCR so that the CEMF doesn't zap it.
And a low er voltage, higher uF cap will produce a lower peak power due to the longer discharge time. Sorry, but I think a HV cap is the way to go!
But I w ould like to be proven wrong, as I've got a lot of flash caps here doing absolutely nothing at the moment! So please try it and tell me the results!

I remember hearing that high current rather than high voltage was better at producing EMF?
If so, Haw ker Technology make a 12v 14ah dry cell lead acid battery (around 6kg) that w ill produce 5000amps on short circuit, presuming it could sustain this for 1 second
that'd be around 60Kjhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
c0deblue August 15th, 2001, 02:25 AM

J:
Don't w ant to discourage you, but I seriously doubt you'll get what you would call a destructive EMP out of a device that size - and certainly it w ouldn't be quiet if you could. A
better solution to the annoying radio might be to just zap it directly w ith the stun gun and blow the detector or tuner front end (for example, a shot right through the insulation
of a computer cable w ill invisibly fry a motherboard by blowing any MOS junctions that get in the way). Waste of time though - the radio w ould probably be replaced in a day or
so and you might wind up having to use the stun gun on the radio's owner or whoever saw you. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frow n.gif
Seriously though, even the most impressive capacitor discharge circuits like the so-called can-crushers use an awful lot of power to produce relatively puny mechanical results,
let alone EMP. As for the monitor flicker you observed, that's probably caused by a combination of the EM field of the output transformer's open core and the electrostatic
deflection effects of the HV driving the image off-screen or simulating a blanking pulse. It doesn't take much to disrupt a monitor, as can be seen by bringing a magnet near the
case (you'll probably have to degauss afterward).
That isn't to say you couldn't generate some pretty strong magnetic fields, but EMP is a w hole 'nother ball game.
As far as the high discharge batteries are concerned, the discharge rate is way too slow. This is also true of higher-value capacitors unless they're very specially designed for
rapid discharge. In this respect, a large number of very small-value capacitors in parallel are vastly superior to one large one of the same total capacitance. If you could dump
60 KJ in a nanosecond or two you might just start to approach a measurable EMP output, but even this wouldn't be enough to cause any serious area disruption. If you're going
after electronics, a tuned HERF thingy would be the more efficient way to go, but even these require pretty bulky power supplies to produce worthw hile results.
Any system you use, the propagation effects will be determined to a large degree by the inverse square law (even with a "focused" device), so you'll have to have some pretty
hellacious forces to begin w ith in order to achieve destructive effects at a measurable distance.
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited August 15, 2001).]

High voltage means you can have a shorter discharge for the same amount of energy. This means you can have much higher peak pow ers, which is w hat you want unless
you're trying to melt the circuit rather than damage the componenets. I suppose it depends what kind of EMP device you want, the TED variety I made needs high voltage, low
uF capacitors but fairly short discharges to get high currents and high peak powers. I suppose it depends on what you mean by low voltage, I've never seen any designs using
less than a few kV, mainly because the high voltage allows a higher current to flow.
That battery sounds fun, but I bet it's expensive!!
codeblue: of cousre it'd be quite if it's all solid-state, and your wires didn't vapourise! There'd be a bit of noise from the capacitor expanding when it discharges because the
plates aren't being pulled together I guess, the coil and w ires will heat up, causing a little bit of noise, and they might repel themselves due to the magnetic field, but it definitely
wouldn't be loud.
Can crushers don't produce EMP because they're not designed to. If you had a cap bank that big you could make a GOOD EMP device if you designed it right.
The flickering of a TV screen by a spark is caused purely by radio waves and other EM waves, and can be focussed greatly with a reflector.
60kJ in a nS would produce VERY, VERY, VEEERRRY measurable results IF YOU DESIGN THE CIRCUIT CORRECTLY and DIRECT IT. That's 60,000,000,000,000 watts - an
INCREDIBLE amount of power!
HF devices will produce beams that are fairly easy to focus, but with LF devices (like a simple capacitor discharging once through a coil) refraction will be too much of a problem,
and it will basically follow the inverse square law.

I had a suspicion that the energy w as required to be over a very short amount of time.
What about a magnatron? The pow er supply could fit into a back pack and the magnatron itself would be in a handheld unit. Could somekind of "reflector" be used to create a
narrow beam of MW? What affect would it have on a radio?
If it failed ot kill the radio then you could at least use it on people who sing along to the radiohttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Yeah, it'd w ork. A car battery or two could supply the power, and you could use short bursts so cooling w asn't a problem.
It'd induce currents in the components of the radio and fry them. The only trouble is that I think the focussing device would need to be quite big - it couldn't be a nice, sneaky
attack on the pop music.

A car battery would be a bit OTT (and heavy!)
1200w att mains inverter, 12v dc input, 250x120x120mm 1.5kg 90% efficient - 219...
Assumbing a 1000w magnatron, 1000w @ 12v = 83A + 10% (efficiency) = 91A
I've got some sealed 12v 7ah lead acid batts which in parallel would easily support those kind of currents (2.5kg each)
Dunno how much space/w eight the electrics required to run the magnatron w ill take up though.
Do you think we're getting a tad too overly complicated? You could just take the fuse out of the plug for the radio...
Or if it's high up (like on a shelf) run a tripwire from the lead to across a door so that the radio gets pulled down and smasheshttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif
Or, what about a plasma canon...?

Or a .38 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

A hammer would work quite w ell, or perhaps thermite.
J August 16th, 2001, 01:58 PM

Well, I'm only going to be working there for another few days anyway, since I'm going away for a w eek (next week) and after that my second year at uni will begin. I think I
can just about put up with it for now, but thanks for the suggestions ;-)
I think I'll persue this project though, since the uses would be endless. Speed cameras, electronics in police cars, security guards radios, boy racer's stereo pumping out shite
garage music, all valid targets :-)
Does anyone have any more info on how to concentrate the EM into a narrow, powerful beam? If I could get a very tight beam, surely the inverse square law would be
overcome at relatively short distances?
I think high voltage is probably the way to go, but I might try the original idea anyway, perhaps very close to a device.
c0deblue, what exactly do you mean by a HERF device?
------------------

High Energy Radio Frequency I believe.
Not very sure how you'd get a narrow beam... but I know it'd be easier w ith a high frequency.
Machiavelli August 18th, 2001, 03:09 AM

You might want to ask people here
http://ww w.plans-kits.com
and here
http://ww w.svbxlabs.com/
J August 18th, 2001, 08:53 AM

Thanks for those links, the second site in particular is very interesting. It has some notes about a coil gun operating on only 2J, which has sparked my interest.
The EMP section of the plans and kits message board is pretty dead. The second site has a link to the Powerlabs board, which I couldn't access through the pow erlabs.org site
the last time I tried. It is definitely not dead :-)
------------------
Ezikiel August 18th, 2001, 11:25 PM

Guys I have a small coil gun and I think it does probably put out an EMP but I haven't yet been able to shut off a calculator even when its placed on the coil.
But I am working on the magnetron version, it seems more promising as if u place a wire made of Al foil in side a microwave and turn it on .... one of the ends ignites.
So I am trying the magnetron.
And to narrow the beam down I w ill probably use a plastic conduit with Magnetron Donuts to guide the microwave.
------------------

J: The Pow erlabs message board gave me trouble too - repeatedly made the Netscape brow ser stop responding. Got in just fine using Opera 5.1 though.
Ezikial: The "donuts" w ill work as a simple waveguide if packed closely together, but so w ould a plain piece of pipe with diameter greater than 1/4 wavelength of the
magnetron's resonant frequency. If you want any kind of gain you'll have to build a horn radiator. There are programs floating around to do these calculations - do a Google
search for "microw ave horn calculator" or some such.
DoH BoY August 22nd, 2001, 03:04 PM

LOL imagine setting some sort of high power EMP device in the middle of a math exam. The results w ould be horrifying.
SawedOff8gaugeman August 23rd, 2001, 02:41 PM

 Originally posted by Machiavelli:
You might want to ask people here
http://ww w.plans-kits.com
and here
http://ww w.svbxlabs.com/
Has anyone ordered anything from plans&kits?
I think some of their products sound like crap:
"BIO-ELECTRONIC STIMULATOR
CONTROVERSIAL DEVICE IS SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED AND TESTED IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES TO
CURE INDIVIDUALS OF AIDS, HERPES, AND VARIOUS OTHER VIRAL INFECTIONS THROUGH SPECIAL
ELECTRONIC SIGNALS INTRODUCED INTO THE BODY. U.S DOCTORS WILL NOT ENDORSE IT
BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT FOR THEM. THIS IS A VERY SIMILAR DESIGN THAT IS VERY COST
EFFECTIVE TO BUILD. THEY SELL ON THE INTERNET FOR HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS. UUE SELLS
PARTIAL KITS, PLEASE EMAIL US TO INQUIRE. THEY REALLY WORK, CAN KILL THE FLU OR A COLD IN
SECONDS. PLANS COST $4.00."
"MIND STIMULATOR/BRAIN ENHANCER
THIS DEVICE IS BASED AFTER THE NEUROPHONE CONCEPT. YOU WILL SEE AND HEAR WITHOUT
USING YOUR SENSES. INDUCES SCALAR WAVES IN NERVES THROUGH SIGNAL VECTOR
MANIPULATION IN THE SKIN. $4.00 FOR COMPLETE PLANS/SCHEMATICS."
"SadM...Small Atomic Demolition Munition
STEP BY STEP INFORMATION OBTAINED THROUGH SPECIAL SOURCES. TEACHES YOU HOW TO
MAKE A 6 INCH DIAMETER ATOMIC MUNITION DEVICE. DESIGN USES LESS THAN A COUPLE GRAMS
OF PLUTONIUM OR URANIUM 238. USES ONLY A COUPLE POUNDS OF EXPLOSIVES TO INITIATE.
VERY DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS. PLANS COST $3.00."

They sound like shit. Especially the last one. If they want a fission explosion and not just to poison people, they'll need more than a few grams. And U238 isn't even fissionable.
The first one might be based in truth, athlete's foot and other microbial diseases can be killed with regular treatments using negatively ionised air (connect a pin to the -ve
output of a 30kV DC PSU, yo will feel a w ind of ionised air coming off the point of the pin).
J September 2nd, 2001, 11:17 AM

Some of those projects do sound like a pay-per-view version of the crapbook. I'd never buy any of those plans, since they're probably adapted from patents and other free
information. You'll never know if the plans were actually tested or not (my guess would be no) especially with the illegal devices since they can't admit it if they did.
Anything that claims to cure illnesses is also very suspect, since there's no way of proving it's effectiveness one w ay or the other.
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > math figures?
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Hey guys, tomorrow (if I have enough time after work) I plan on making a crude cannon/mortor that will made of a stainless steel pipe (3' long by 4" ID). I will be shooting
both 'grape shot' (just a bunch of peices of scrap metal, nuts, and bolts) as well as well as cement spheres (made by filling spherical glass ornaments with an ID of slightly
smaller than 4" with cement and allowing them to dry). I will be using my electrical ignitor for the initiation so it will be fairly well controlled.
Also, rather than just shooting aimlessly, I am going to be shooting at a target made of plywood that will be set at different distances for different tests.
I was just wondering if any of you knew any mathematical formulas I could use to figure out theoretically how fast my shot is going to fire out.
mrloud February 24th, 2002, 09:41 PM

On a related note, does anyone know how ammunition and firearm manufacturers determine the velocity of a projectile? I suspect that it is not determined until after the
product is tried out. They could use RADAR in modern times or they could have used high speed film in old times.
DBSP February 25th, 2002, 02:35 AM

The VOD is determined with a chronograf. Its a box similar to a brick in shape filled with electronics. On the top there's two sensors wich measure the time it takes for the bullet
to pass both sensors.
Ctrl_C February 25th, 2002, 10:17 AM

I will bring my physics notes home tomorrow...they contain all the projectile motion equations you will ever need.
SATANIC February 25th, 2002, 01:06 PM

If you are going to be really simple about it, you could take a measurement of the distance it flies, (fire one at a set charge) estimate the height, measure the angle of the
barrel, and record the time. From that you can work out the actual distance it flew, then the average speed. from those you could at least make a rough estimation of the
launch speed. just use your simple trig rules, and possibly pythagoras's theorem, (sp). It's year 10 science stuff ( i did advanced science but).
i'd post diagrams, but i have none. if you really can't do it your self, post the data and i'll work it out. i can't explain how to do it, i haven't got the patience.

Well today I shot off a few and with a little work made it quite accurate (I shot a small branch off a tree that was about 100 feet away).
My homemade BP doesn't burn fast enough to shoot any kind of projectile off well, so I mixed it 50/50 with industrial FFG grade BP and it worked just fine with my electrical
ignitor.
I went through my old physics notes and found a formula if I was to shoot the mortar off straigh up in the air.
To measure using time, you can time the amount of seconds it takes for the projectile to leave the barrel to the point in which it stops (reaches 0m/s).
VI = VF - GT (where g = -9.81 gravity)
Therefore if it took my projectile 7 seconds before it reached 0m/s, then

VI = 0 - (-9.81)(7) = 68.67m/s
Also you can calulate the maximum height it achieved by using:

D = (VF - VI)/(2G)
= (0 - 68.67) / (2)(-9.81)
= 240m
(of coarse this is its theoretical value, not including the factor of wind causing it to slow down)
zaibatsu February 26th, 2002, 07:29 AM

To measure speed of a bullet in an easy way just use a ballistic pendulum.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~jlkeefer/ball_pen.htm or do a search on it a find a load of different pages.

The distance where your projectile hits the ground(so not a tree in the middle!) is equal to:
Vo x Vo x sin 2y / 9,81
Vo = muzzle velocity
y = angle with the ground
so if you want to know the muzzle velocity you have to take the square root of:
9,81 x d / sin 2y
d = distance
I hope this is clear to you, if not, send me a mail.

you also have to take into account the height of the barrel from the ground. in reality, you should find the distance to where it hit, calculate the trajectory, and calculate where
the "landing poing" is at the same height as the muzzle.
i forgot my notes...tomorrow perhaps

Vulture's formula seem to be a formula made for 2 dimensional (where Vox and Voy are both accounted for) analysis of distance and hieght and he just translated it to be
made for a vertical measurement.. sounds like making it a lot harder than it really is but I guess if your the technical type, then that's the way to go. BTW, for you people that
don't know your physics all that well, Vo and Vi are the same.. they both represent the initial velocity.
Anyways the formulas I gave earlier were to measure from the time that the projectile left the barrel and was far enough away that the BP no longer had an accelerating effect
on it (about 6-8 inches I should think from the end of the barrel) to the point in which its vertical hieght is at its maximum point (when V = 0m/s). You could also (theoretically
because the real acceleration would not be uniform) calculate the acceleration from when the projectile is at rest inside the barrel to the point outside the barrel when it is no
longer accelerating. I forget what this formula is but I am pretty sure it works.

Actually, it's the simplest formula that exists for this!
Of course it's a 2-dimensional movement, it has a vertical and a horizontal velocity.
And i don't see where you get that Vo and Voy from, it's just the square of Vo, but i don't know how to type superscript.
My x stands for multiply BTW.
2x barrel lenght / square of time in barrel = acceleration

heres all projectile motion equations from my physics notes.
g = -9.80 m/s2
Vf = Vi + at
d = 1/2 (Vf + Vi)t
d = Vit = 1/2 at2
Vf2 = Vi2 + 2ad
dx = Vixt
dy = Viyt + 1/2 gt2
where
Vi = Initial velocity (muzzle velocity)
Vf = Final velocity
d = displacement (distance)
t = time in s
a = accel due to gravity (g)
Furthermore, you can seperate the projectile into an x and y component using:
Vix = Vicos(angle)
Viy = Visin(angle)
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: ctrl_c ]
xoo1246 March 2nd, 2002, 11:58 PM

When a projectile reaches higher speed than aprox 60km/h air resistance becomes important.
Bignutsami March 5th, 2002, 11:33 PM

The older chronographs just used two sheets of paper with wires running through them set at a defined distance apart.
As the bullet passed through the wires were cut, which started and stopped a timer which shows how long the projectile took to go that distance, the math is simple from there.

I'll scan you some pages for a old gun book I have that tells you pretty much every way to register velocity of your projectile.
I'll put it on the FTP in the uploads It name will be "chronographs scanned pages.pdf"

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > m obile ph o n e g u n
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View Full Version : mobile phone gun
Mick August 15th, 2001, 02:27 AM

have a look at this, p retty tricky if you ask m e - and probably not all that hard to do eithe r
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/20981.htm l

Good article, but see BadSeed's post @ http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/Forum 4 / H T M L / 0 0 0 2 6 0 . h t m l com plete with drawings
and a video clip of the device in action.
Mick August 15th, 2001, 04:29 AM

oh..woops, didn't kno w there was alrea dy a post about it
...didn't both e r t o l o o k , d i d n ' t t h i n k a n y o n e e l s e h a d s e e n i t b e f o r e
sorry http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/biggrin .gif

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > OICW can it be improvise?
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Mad Dog April 22nd, 2001, 09:16 PM

Fore those who don't know OICW stands for (Objective Individual Combat Weapon)
http://members.tripod.com/~DragonC147/OICW2.html
My plan was to improvise a simplified version consisting of a home made sub-machine gun
and Kurt Saxon's slam-bang shotgun mounted on top. Dos anyone have any suggestions how it can be improved? Also I dont have any sub-machine gun plans so can
you can suggest a book or a web site that has appropriate gunsmithing advise it would be greatly appreciated
------------------
If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
DaRkDwArF April 22nd, 2001, 09:35 PM

hmm if you wanted to use a slambang shotgun wouldn't it be better mounted underslung?
I think I would prefer NBK's Gyrojet project, it sounds a hell of a lot more sexier =)
Mad Dog April 22nd, 2001, 10:30 PM

Question: what is "Gyrojet project"? I have a number of NBK's pdf's but I've never herd of Gyrojet.
And over thing if I put the slambang shotgun underslung would that mean that I should have a sub-machine gun simular to Sten Mk2 with a clip on the side of the weapon.
Also from my entirely theoretical knowledge Sten is inaccurate and unreliable, but I may be wrong.
------------------
Agent Blak April 22nd, 2001, 11:12 PM

Dwarf,
At a distance the GyroJet is effective but up close and personal she is supposed to be shitty. it would be interesting to build though. As for being sexier...To Chix A Gun Is A
Gun(sory FireFox but it is true); also most of the Chix I have met hate guns.
------------------
phyrelord April 23rd, 2001, 05:29 PM

it's not in a pdf it's one of his posts a gyrojet is a small gun which shoots rocket propelled ammo, at short range it is very, very weak, at long ranges though it's at full power.
The bullet itself is about the size of a forty five shell (the whole thing). Oh and another thing is that it stabilizes itself because the two jets are sent out in opposite directions.
Do a search for gyrojet posts and you should find it.
DaRkDwArF April 24th, 2001, 07:31 AM

Aye, theres your launcher, now underneath it you place your SMG =)
AR-15 Man April 24th, 2001, 06:58 PM

Just curious how do you plan on the infared/nvg display? And did you know it has a tracking system that follows moving objects like say if you run into brush it will give the
user some idea of where you are at? It is one hell of a weapon system is one thing but don't think it would be easy to improvise and/or be reilable. I think it would be cool to
try but nothing beats getting out and actually learning your weapon. I thought about getting a 500 dollar upgrade on my AR-15 but decieded to try everything first. Sure glad I
did that. You would be suprised what you will learn. But I will say some good thing to add to any CQB rifle are holographic sights. Not the cheap 5 dollar wally world versions. If
you can afford that buy some of that sight paint and paint a triangle and a dot in the middle of a piece of plexiglass. You would have to find some sort of mount but it should
work out fine. Shouldn't matter anyway slam fire SMG's like you are wanting are not the accurate anyway. The shotgun underneath is a great idea.

That idea's been tried and tested before, the US military were using them, I'm pretty sure it was a standard M203 with a 12ga adaptor. I've seen carazy jap workings though,
they cut down a remington 870 and mounted it below an AR15... I'll look for the pic
AR-15 Man April 25th, 2001, 09:54 PM

Darkdwarf you are referring to something called a "master key". It is a cut down 870. It is in limited use f or special forces. The M203 shotgun adapter was actually used in Vietnam for
M79 users who only had a .45 pistol for defense. They later came up with a 40mm Buckshot round. I think the 40mm worth of buckshot is better than 12 gauge but it might of
been a weight
consideration. Hell the first M-16's only weighted 5 and a half pounds. I would of carried one too. But that is why the came up with the M203 in the first place. I would just love
to have an M203 with buckshot and HEAP rounds. But still on the topic of the subgun it would be more of
a PDW or CQB cause subguns aren't great rifles.
Mad Dog April 25th, 2001, 10:43 PM

AR-15 MAN I am attempting to make a simular weapon, to OICW I can't recrate all of the electronics so fare a close relative of mine offered me his IR scope and laser sight
maybe I'll manege to get some over gadgets. And after reeding about Gyrojet project a slightly modified version of the project would be the best "primary" weapon to witch
the IR scope will be fitted. I'll probably place the laser sight on the SMG so it will be my CQB weapon.
And one more thing dos any one have a good SMG or compact assault rifle plans they could land me?
------------------
SofaKing April 26th, 2001, 01:00 AM
Remeber when ripley duct taped the m40A1 to the flamer, yeah I want that where can I get that ? What do you mean it's illegal, I'm going to talk to someone about this.
Then again the sentrys where cool two.
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AR-15 Man April 26th, 2001, 10:04 PM

Mad Dog if you are using such good items like a IR scope and laser site don't use a homemade SMG. Heck go out and buy a good rifle like an AK, SKS, AR-15, one of the newer imported G-3's or FN-
FALs. If you want an SMG and/or are strapped for cash try the PM-11 or AB-10. Do you have access to a machine shop to make the mounts? But in reality lasers and holosites
belong on SMGs not IR scopes. They take away from their true purpose. Kinda like trying to use a low rider truck for off roading it isn't going to work. The OICW is suppose to
be a rifle/mini missle platform anyway. Your is more of a high tech CQB weapon. But all of what I am saying is from a practical standpoint and goes back to my analogy of the
low rider truck. The low rider truck like a SMG with lots of crap on it like IR scopes that weight it down but it looks cool and if that is what you are going for then let your
imagination go wild. But if this is something you would take to combat keep it simple. All I can say is good luck and if you need any ideas just mail me.

I wouldn't really like carting around an OICW, too bulky for me, I'd prefer a Styer AUG or one of th new HK series (the plastic Rifles) with holo sights. Thats probably because
I've never fought a tank or a bunker full of men before but hey! If thats your cup of tea then build one, let me know how it goes =)
HMTD Factory April 27th, 2001, 06:52 PM

Improvising OICW?
Get a crossfire (.223 + 12Ga), mount a rangefinder night vision scope. Under mount a
grenade launcher, there you got yourself a 100 pound rifle.
OICW cannot withstand EMP blast if you want to know...After a soliton bomb exploded, the whole arsenal will fall prey to good old AKs.
AR-15 Man April 27th, 2001, 09:10 PM

Yea Darkdwarf hit it on the head the OICW is for HEAVY battles. Such as you jump out of the vehicle and are in the fight. It isn't a patrol, recon, or carry around weapon. It is
to give each infantry man a hell of a lot of firepower in battle. Yea I would prefer any assualt rifle like AK, AR-15, G36, galil, valmet, ect. Yea it like HMTD Factory said it won't
take an EMP blast.
HMTD Factory are you from Canada if you are I can see why you like AK's. I would too if I lived in a very cold region. Nope I get to live in the good ole south in the US. I do
like the idea of mounting the stuff on the crossfire. To bad the rifle isn't semi. If I wanted a heavy weapon I would use a M1A, BAR, or some type of squad automatic weapon
like RPK, M243, PKM, ect. Oh yea best thing for a tank battle is just to avoid them whenever you can. Wait till you liberate heavier weapons. I don't wanna be the poor
bastard who tries to sneak up on a tank putting a charge around the turret. Remember tanks can only take ground not hold it anyway.

Yeah I would honestly prefer an AK, easy to strip down and the rounds are abundant around here, around my area I face alot of different climates all offer different ways to
fuck up a nice rifle, so yes an AK or something similar would be my choice, probably mount a holo sight and a flashlight and convert it to a folding stock

The AK-47 is the most widely used assault rifle(it has seen the most battles). It is tried and True. It is russian and there for design for the russian climate(Same Canada).
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AR-15 Man April 28th, 2001, 03:56 PM

The AK is a good rifle. you can add cobra holo site, buy mags, ammo accessories very cheaply but I prefer the AR-15 series. Some may say AR are Jamomatics but they aren't
if you clean them like you have to do every rifle. The AR series is flexible. In minutes you can change the rifle from a very accurate precision rifle to a handgun caliber subgun.
I have abused AR every way. I live in the south so we don't usually have very cold weather but we do have rain, mud, swamps, hail, etc. Accuracy is one thing I strive for.
That is another reason I chose the AR-15. But when it comes down to it just have a rifle. Heck in Vietnam and Pakistan guerilla forces mostly had pre WWII weapons. Oh yea
darkdwarf most AK folding stocks have some play in them so you will some lose accuracy. If you want compact go for it.
Mad Dog April 28th, 2001, 11:44 PM

DaRkDwArF I have used both AK-47 and Styer AUG. AK may be heaver but it is more powerful and reliable but I may its just my heritage spiking as I was born and raised in
Russia.(I an NOT a communist!!!) So if OICW is designed to be used only in large scale combat, what should I use to defeat any weapons or equipment that a SWAT team can
use against me.
One more thing I am currently living in Australia so any assault weapon is outlawed so I'll have to construct it from scratch.
------------------
Mr Cool April 29th, 2001, 11:48 AM

Just another comment on the Gyrojet: it's very quite (like an airgun, apparently) and since it fires rockets it can be totally recoilless. Also, since it fires rockets, no pressure has
to build up, so it can be made from cheap, light materials (Al, plastic), and due to the spin stabilisation from the angled jets, no rifling is needed. In my opinion, it would be
worth making the ammo (not very hard) for an improvised weapon because of these points. For the (very basic) ammo, just get copper tubing, seal one end with epoxy, fill it
with a composite rocket fuel, and plug it with a disc of anything easily drillable and fairly strong, e.g. MDF. Then, using a jig, drill a central hole through the rear plug, and two
small angled holes opposite each other on either side of the larger, main hole. Pour a little bit of BP in through the main hole, seal the other two holes with molten wax, and
push a rifle primer in the main hole.
Once everything is set up you could mass produce these very quickly. It wouldn't matter if the MDF burnt, because by the time it had burnt a significant amount the rocket
would have hit the target.
PYRO500 April 29th, 2001, 04:07 PM

that does not sound easy or workable/safe
AR-15 Man April 29th, 2001, 06:15 PM

Mad Dog, that is awful you live their with such horrible gun laws. You might be able to make a AK-47 copy if you want a rifle. If the Afghans could make their own copy I am
sure someone in a 1st world country could. You said you were from Russia? I have had training from people from former soviet satellite countries. Mainly Lithuania. But I have
also had training from Korea era US soldiers, Vietnam era US soldiers and Current US soldiers. Plus a few others like from South America. Did you ever fire the real deal full
auto AK version or full auto AUG Steyrs? Just curious. Well good luck with your OICW.
Mr Cool April 29th, 2001, 06:16 PM

The idea is both workable and safe. I made a 1" diameter rocket stabilised using angled jets. I used a paper roll cap to set it off, and BP with a bit of red phosphorous as an
igniter because I didn't have any primers. The fuel was AN/Al/resin/ammonium dichromate/charcoal (actually I used potassium dichromate), as described in ALENGOSVIG1's
site. I launched it from a cardboard tube with a nail in the bottom. The rocket was put about 1" into the tube, where it was stopped by a nail through the side. A length of
string attached to this nail could be pulled from a distance, allowing the rocket to fall and be set off. It went very high very fast, and very straight.
I suppose it would be easier to make a gun though. I just mentioned this because I like experimental rocketry.
PYRO500 April 29th, 2001, 06:31 PM

I once saw a gyro jet shot before, using copper tubing with a homemade propellant could be hazardous to your health, for one the gyrojet proplellant burns very slowly and it
has no solid particles in the exaust that can clog the jet holes you made one with paper witch is what I would recomend you experiment with or else you might have just built
a handheld finger remover
DaRkDwArF April 29th, 2001, 07:02 PM

Well then MadDog I guess you can understand what I mean by multi climate if you live in Australia =) Hmm the AUG is very easy to strip down but alot of others I know loose
parts when stripping it down in the field. but the AK can have parts improvised easily if you happen to have the blueprints on you. IT's got alot more stopping power but the
AUG is more accurate. Anyhow skipping to far off topic here. The OICW would really only be useful against LE and Military, bu if the military are there you've already spent to
much time on the scene. I think it would be an excellent "SWAT stopper" just point and click at their van/bus =)
Mad Dog April 30th, 2001, 10:55 AM

I can't argue with that, AUG is more accurate and with AUG you can actually hit something while firing full auto (AK jumps too much). The only reason I prefer AK-47 is
a more powerful round and the fact that it doesnt contain any plastic which has a tendency to brake in -30C. I know someone who has AK-47 plans but all the
commentary is in Russianso I can post them to anyone but you might not understand them.
Back to OICW is there any over ideas for a SWAT stoper rifle?
------------------
[This message has been edited by Mad Dog (edited April 30, 2001).]
Mr Cool April 30th, 2001, 03:00 PM

I read a report on the gyrojet which stated that the muzzle velocity was 274 m/s, and that's in about 20cm of barrel. Therefore the fuel can't burn very slowly! And smoke
won't clog anything. It's too fine, and it has several hundred, if not thousand, psi pushing it out of the way.
Well, they're fun, even if not practical for weapons use!
PYRO500 April 30th, 2001, 05:41 PM

yes it may make a huge amount of pressure, if the pressure rises too fast it will explode wether it has a hole or not, and what clogs it is carbon debris from the black powder
you will probably use
HMTD Factory April 30th, 2001, 10:52 PM

Yes I live in Canada and yes I love AKs.
But AK-47 can not be made really accurate like .223 rifles. 7.62X39 M43 caliber is not
accurate enough after 200 yards. 5.45X39 is better competeing to .223 Rem.
The Russian got a new shit called 9X39, ever heard of it?
Some AK-47 blueprints are cooler than other

AK-47 blueprints, how come?
THE COOLEST ONES ARE WRITTEN IN RUSSIAN!!!
So Mad Dog please post the naked picture of Ms. AK and I am gonna hang it on my walls.
AR-15 Man May 1st, 2001, 10:59 PM

Yea HMTD factory I have heard of the 9x39 round. It is very bad ass from what reports have said. But this is also from the people who make it. If they would let some of us
"westerners" in to test it I would be very pleased. The 9x39 would make a good round for the OICW. Oh yea HMTD factory I thought all AK type rifle were banned by name in
Canada? I also heard you all can get standard G36's but without Hi Cap mags. Your assessment of the AK situation is right. You ever heard of Valmets and Galils. Apparently
they are accurate. I wouldn't know they run about $2000.
HMTD Factory May 2nd, 2001, 05:29 AM

Anything that looks like AK or designed base on AK is banned in Canada, but can be traded between those who have a "prohibited firearm license". (Anything that looks like AK
: Dragunov, Velmet, Galil, AK-22, Type 56, RPK,
Romak, the whole AK family...with only a few exceptions, such as "Velmet Hunter" and SKS.)
I was checking a .22 AK copy in a gun show but I was stopped by the dealer, he said in heavily accented English "If you don't have the permit then don't bother checking out
the
gun." I was like #%&*@!^...
Mad Dog May 27th, 2001, 01:38 AM

I am back. I was unable to post for about two weeks(it's a long story).
And now for the bad news my scanner is out so I will not be able to post the AK blueprints for some time yet. The good news is that there is a chance that I will get my hands
on SVD plans. So if I do I will be happy to scan them for anyone who is interested.
------------------
petermueller June 20th, 2001, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
Fore those who don't know OICW stands for (Objective Individual Combat Weapon)
http://members.tripod.com/~DragonC147/OICW2.html
My plan was to improvise a simplified version consisting of a home made sub-machine gun
and Kurt Saxon's slam-bang shotgun mounted on top. Dos anyone have any suggestions how it can be improved? Also I dont have any sub-machine gun plans so can
you can suggest a book or a web site that has appropriate gunsmithing advise it would be greatly appreciated

look on the wild eyed psychos page
------------------
ANTI-SYSTEM June 20th, 2001, 01:22 PM

holy damn if i had one of those ,even an improvised one the world wouldnt be the same. how much would one of those cost?
AR-15 Man June 22nd, 2001, 12:48 PM

I was reading an artical about it a while back in Nation Rifleman and they prototype costed 40,000 dollars. You may say what the hell that is expensive. They hope by the
issue date 2006 it should be down to 20,000 dollars which is the price of an Urban land warrior M-4. And bring it down to 11 pounds. Maybe they will maybe they won't. And
the 20mm shells compents have been classified. They are coming out with a Machinegun version that will replace the MK-19 and M-2 Browing Ma Duece. Personally I think the
M-2 needs to stay. It will be a decent replacement for the MK-19.
Ragnar July 29th, 2001, 04:31 AM

Hey, Mad Dog.
I would be very interested in the russian AK blueprints, I know someone who has a Ruski AKM that is missing the trigger mechanism and bolt. It's a '73.
Mad Dog August 16th, 2001, 03:28 AM

OK I am back
Sorry Ranger but my scanner is not working.
I have finally gave up on the project, the only thing that I acutely made (in my dreams of corse) was a "slam bang" with an attachment to fire NBKs hand grenades and
"Molotov cocktails".
AR-15 Man, personally I consider that m-2 is outdated and needs to be replaced by a newer weapon and a deferent round e.g. 14.5mm or 15.2mm. Hey what's Urban land
warrior M-4, I know what M-4 is I presume that Urban land warrior is a short way of saying "M-4 with every possible gismo attached to mace it look reel scary" was I far of.
------------------
AR-15 Man August 18th, 2001, 03:41 PM

Why do you feel the M-2 is outdated? I am curious. I know there are better weapons but I feel it's purpose is anti aircraft and anti material weapons. Not anti armor. They
have much better weapons for that purpose. Like 30mm auto cannons. As for the Urban land warrior it is a joke. To many gismos. Well it would be good for specfic purposes
but that is it. Like heavy street fighting and you have a good supply line. Shouldn't be general issue EVER. I know I wouldn't want to be lugging around a 20 pound weapon
that has too many gismos. I mean for 20 pounds I could have a belt feed. And for 11 pounds I can have an M-16A2 with M203.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Sniper
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herrbauer August 18th, 2001, 10:42 PM

I'm looking for a small sniper rifle project. I've found some projects in other forums but none matches my query. The effective range must be over 100 metres. The caliber
may be 5.5mm. The barrel can't be longer than 70 cm. Of course I'm not trying to kill anyone, I'm just adding ideas to my project. Thanx
Heavy Recoil August 18th, 2001, 11:10 PM

Something improvised probably wont be accurate at 10 meters much less 100. since you use meters. you are probably not from the USA, while you have strict laws, over the
lake, in the land of the semi-free, they are not that hard to get around. .30 cal. would be better, as machine gun barrels used to be found here (http://
www.sportsmansguide.com) in .308. most parts (receivers no) can be ordered from the mail. 100meters will usually need to be rifled (read as very very hard) so complete
impro. is difficult. 30 cal. is your best bet over there, too. has a bit more range and knockdown power (reliability, accuratcy, knockdown, range, rof, kick ass looks http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif ) greatest to trivial needs of a gun) you will need a already made barrel. then add an action. Ill get back to you on that, Thru the
forum not email.
------------------
"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein
[This message has been edited by Heavy Recoil (edited August 18, 2001).]

You want a 5.5mm barrel? Then go get a .22 air rifle second hand and strip off the barrel. You could probably pick one up for 20 or less. You could also use it's trigger
mechanism and stock.
Predator August 19th, 2001, 12:31 PM

Air rifle barrel rifling would be too slow for a live round though.. the gyroscopic stability out at 100m probably wouldn't be fantastic

Ah, I didn't think of that. Well it'd be better than a smooth bore I bet!

Depends what you deem as "accurate" at 100m? If you want to hit a man size target, torso, or maybe even head then a .22 rimfire in a half sharp air rifle should be capable of
that. You couldn't be confident of a kill with a rimmy though.
IIRC officially "sniping" doesn't start till past 600 or 700 yds.

If it has not to be made with a silencer you could use .22 WRM instead of .22 LR and when making it as a Bullpup-rifle you could made it very small though the killing range of
a .22 lR is somewhere 400 m
[This message has been edited by twinkle (edited August 19, 2001).]

If your thinking of a .313, you may want to try building it on the Vikers K machine gun design, although the calibre is .303, the muzzle velocity is 743m (2,445ft) per second,
and has a range of 1,828m (2,000yards).
Although for a range of say 500meters this would be a slight overkill, but, if building it on the Vikers K machine gun, the design is pretty simple. I will try and get some plans
from somewhere.
------------------

In my books 'Accurate' is when you can hit your target to within a 1 inch diameter circle consistantly at a given distance, in this case, 100m
The only thing is, a 'half decent' air rifle/barrel that can contribute to achieving that costs quite a bit, and cheaper air-guns just won't cut the mustard.
I've come across airguns that were supplied with a spec sheet that read "accurate to 3cm diameter at 10 meters" ! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif
HMTD Factory August 21st, 2001, 02:37 AM

A .22 air gun barrel may have enough rifling to stablize a centerfire bullet http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
If the twist is 1-in-14 then it can shoot anything below 55 grain.
If the twist is 1-in-9 then it can shoot anything below 70 grain.
The US army use a 1-in-6 tight twist for NATO 62 grainers, but thats to enhance terminal ballistics.
An air gun barrel should have no problem as long as the groove diameter fits the rifle(AND thick enough for your chamber).
Say, the barrel is .226 and the bullet is .223, then you are hopeless for accuracy. On the other hand if the barrel is .219 and the bullet is .223 then you have pressure problem.
The power of your gun MUST be equal to or greater than .22 WMR to perform MOA.. If you don't handload then 223 Rem is your best friend.
My personal "Poor man's sniper rifle" is a Swedish mauser I found on a gunshow. It's cheaper than my SKS...but the most accurate rifle I own(handload shoots sub-half MOA,
all the time).
Go to gunshows when you need gun parts, last time I spotted an unchambered .308 bull barrel 1 inch thick for 80$CDN., but my money is already gone.
AR-15 Man August 21st, 2001, 01:13 PM

HMTD Factory are you sure the NATO twist is 1 in 6? I thought it was 1 in 7. Even stamped on my barrel and has NATO on it. Also good choice on the Swedish Mauser. They
never used corrisve ammo so shot out barrels are hard to find. All I can get cheap is Mosin Nagents and Turk Mausers.
HMTD Factory August 22nd, 2001, 03:46 AM

1-in-6 is the new U.S. twist, I dunno about NATO specs. Both Turk Mauser and Mosin are decent guns. I reload for Mosin (A Polish M44) but hasn't found a decent scope mount
yet for accuracy tests.
For Mausers, pre-war or early wartime Mauser in Germany is very good, The best wartime Mauser I think are the ones made by BRNO under German capture, they are about
as smooth as a custom rifle(It's true, I saw one before I can get it.)
I heard the Swedish stuff is drying up in the

US, but I still got myself another Swedish here in Canada, this time the rifle is stored in grease unfired.
If anybody is into a "poor man's sniper rifle" project, don't use Swedish Mausers, cuz they are MINE!http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
HMTD Factory August 26th, 2001, 08:37 PM

Ahh fenris you got what I was looking for...
The Erma .22 carbine, probably the only gas operated .22LR rifle in the world.
When it comes to M1 remakes...a company in Israel is offering new M1 carbine in either .30 carbine or MMJ5.7(.30 carb necked down to .22cal, makes the MMJ5.7 case a bit
larger than the 5.7X28) The .22cal cartridge is very efficient, with less than 15grn. of powder the bullet will scream at 3000fps.
Agent Blak August 26th, 2001, 09:41 PM

I would like to recomend the Lee/EndField .303 British;
holds ten rounds in the Mag and one in the chamber, Bolt Actiopn like all descent Snipers use, Cheap($100-300), Scope Mounts.
plus if .303 British brings down a deer with ease I don't think a human would be a problem.
If it is a Duce-Duce you are looking for i recomend an Ant-Shoot Target rifle. The Russians use a .22LR to snipe. the beautiful thing about them is they can be silenced with a
beverage bottle and anything beyond 100m I would worry about silencing.
------------------
raptor1956 August 28th, 2004, 07:48 PM

I'm inclined to think that the terms "sniping" and ".22cal short barrel" are somewhat mutually exclusive!
zaibatsu August 29th, 2004, 05:28 AM

I'm inclined to think that that's a useless post, bringing up an old thread without reason.
tdog49 August 29th, 2004, 10:59 PM

Aguila makes a 60 gr. .22lr cartridge that is subsonic. It carries more energy at 100+yds than most of the high velocity 30-40 gr. cartridges. They claim 10+inches of
penetration into ballistic gelatin @ 200 yds. I have used these and they are a little dirty but do perform well. For premium accuracy you do need a 1 in 9 twist barrel--most 22lr
barrels ar 1-14 or 1-16--.
Their website is here: www.aguilaammo.com/

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > calculating # of shots
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View Full Version : calculating # of shots

In reference to here -
http://www26 .brinkster.com/fu llauto/index.htm l
If I was to use a regulator to pressurise the pressure ch a m b e r t o 6 0 p s i a nd the "feeder ta nk" was presurised to 100psi, how
m any shots at 60psi will I get from the gun if the feeder tank has 16 tim es the volume of the pressure cha m b e r ?

Thin k I m igh t of work ed it out.
shot-feeder pressure
1 - 100
2 - 96
3 - 93
4 - 89
5 - 85
6 - 81
7 - 78
8 - 74
9 - 70
10 - 66
11 - 63
12 - 59
13 - 55
14 - 52
15 - 48
16 - 45
17 - 43
18 - 40
19 - 37
20 - 35
My calculation for the first shot was
100 x 1/16 = 6.25

60/100 x 6.25 = 3.75
100 - 3.75 = 96 (rounded to nearest whole)
Then same done for every shot until pressure dropped below 60psi, where the second line of calculations wasnt necessary as
f e e d e r a n d p ressure tank pressure was the sam e .
Does that look right?
That gives 11 shots at 60psi, which seem s pretty good.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Cattle Prods
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mongo blongo February 25th, 2002, 03:58 PM

Hi all!
I have just tried out the cowprod method from the FTP and it kicks ass! For those who don't know, it involves using the inner parts of a disposable camera. I made some
modifications to the method, nothing big, just added some different safety and charging switches and removed some parts that didn't need to be there.
I tried it on some Al foil and it bade a small bang with a blue flash with some sparks and also melted tw o holes in the foil! I was impressed!
After messing around with it for a while, the w ires I w as using were burned out!
As I w as trying to repair the damage, I w as charging it up and I accidently hit the momentary safety switch shocked myself! The capaisitor w as only about half charged up, but
it fucking hurt! It felt like all the molecules in my arms were vibrating really fast for a split second. I would NOT like to experience this when it w as fully charged!
Try this out, It's cool! (not getting shocked I mean) :) But it's a good laugh for a few bucks.
While on the subject, most of/all you know what a Van der graph (sp?) generator is right? I w as thinking, If you were to get a small one (like the ones in phsysics class) and
hook the dome and the leaver with the discharging ball to some contacts at the end of a long stick. Have the VDG on some kind of back pack module and run it of a lawn
mower engine! :eek:
I have seen these things give a spark over a 5cm gap from about 10 or 20 SLOW manual turns. From a lawn mower engine, this would be fucking insane!
I haven't given much thought to this and w ould be too scared to try it out (could get bolts of lightning discharging into my face!) but I would like to know your thoughts on this
one.
On a related subject I was impressed at A-Bomb's induction coils (video on the FTP)! Have you got any plans for them by the w ay?
ALENGOSVIG1 February 25th, 2002, 04:57 PM

i got a whole box of old disposable cameras from costco. if you think 1 capacitor fully charged is impressive then add 3 or 4 more camera capacitors and use 2 D batteries to
charge it.
mongo blongo February 26th, 2002, 10:35 AM

Cool idea! Would they be wired up in series or parallel? I think parallel right? (I'm crap at electronics). :)
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Mongo Blongo ]

fyi, most disposable camera caps are 330v 1 micro Farrad.
Also, shorting out an 8 Farrad cap (car stereo cap) is awesome. sounds like crazy arcing electricity going WAAAAP!. welds the screwdriver to the leads too.
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: ctrl_c ]
A-BOMB February 26th, 2002, 11:55 AM

If you think a car stero cap is cool, wait till you see this cap I got out of a bigass projection TV its a 8,000uf 192 volts its melts a friggin hole through a nickel.
PYRO500 February 26th, 2002, 04:06 PM

those caps from camera flashes are usually around 150 uf at 330-350V that is about 8.1 J (joules) now that is a pretty good punch in that size, I think the car audio caps are
around 600 J but they are slow er to discharge than regular caps. and the projection tv cap is about 149 J now these all pack a pretty good punch, but my magneto charged
blasting machine is 100 J at 100 V and I have a desktop cap bank of two huge electorlytic caps that are a combined energy of 2.11 KJ! that is 2110 J at 525V! I stumped the
physics teacher by shooting aluminum disks with it, this thing is haxardous to discharge it sounds like a shotgun, will utterly explode little pieces of aluminum foil I think I can
detonate NM with it, I have to experiment, I think it is around the power of 7 1/2 defibulators and if you ever touch it it will happily blow little chunks of flesh from your bone!
when I trigger this it explodes a bit off the copper house wiring I am using (big 220V oven w ire)and it shoots liquid green vaporized copper balls all over, I almost had a fire
beacuse of this, I am looking for a big scr to switch this, now I am working on a big switch that slams shut, I can take al foil and bunch it up and put it on the coil attached to
this and w hen I touch the leads I get a loud pop like an explosion and the lump of AL foil will smack against my cieling!
DBSP February 27th, 2002, 05:18 AM

I better source of power for a small blasting machine would be an external foto flash. I've got one and it's a lot more powerful than the ordinary built-in camera flash.
This I understand isn't very powerful compared to etc PYROs blasting machine. But it more simple and easy to find than PYROs.
I got a question. How exactly do you trigger and charge a cap. Does anyone have schematics.
I tried dow nloading the cowprod file from the ftp but I got an error message when I tried opening it. I found it in recent. Has enyone else had problems opening it?
I'm very interested in getting myself a blasting box. I've got some caps so all I need schematics to see what else I need. You se I'm fucking tired off draging around heavy
carbatteries
DaRkDwArF February 28th, 2002, 12:29 PM

Where abouts in the ftp is the file? I can't find it under IW...
DBSP March 1st, 2002, 02:27 AM

The cowprod file is located in recent. And if you had read the last post you w ouldn't have had to ask!
xoo1246 March 2nd, 2002, 11:54 PM

If you want to keep it simple, hook your wires up to w here the flash lamp used to be.
xoo1246 March 3rd, 2002, 12:01 AM

You charge you capacitor through a resitor and you might have to use a transformator to get higher voltage. If the voltage isn't too hight you could use switch or you a
transistor. Otherw ise use a tyristor.

i gotta have one of these
im getting a camera tomarrow
soon im gona have a new destructive toy to play with :D
mongo blongo March 4th, 2002, 04:02 PM

They can be a pain in the ass though. The contacts keep on melting so I have to change the wires quite often. :mad:
Good fun though. ;)

im gona just take a new camera and take it apart. im not gona wast my time w ith takeing all the pictures.
[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: Madog ]

Well, i've been trying to do this for a couple days, and here's my results:
Saturday:
I read a file about shock guns and how to make them out of disposable cameras. Simple enough. So i go to a local camera store (non name brand one) and ask the guy for a
disposable camera without film for a "school project" (zapping people at school < img border= "0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). He runs into the back, and comes
out with this black one. I got all excited and w ent home and opened it up. I couldn't get the flash to work but i thought, hey, if i put more volts into it (a 6 volt industrial
battery) it would w ork. I looked for a battery and found w hat looked like one. After 30 mins of trying i found out that the little bastard had taken out the batteries and i had
wasted that disposable camera... oh well...
Sunday: I went to london drugs and asked the same thing. This time i got 3 cameras. 1 w as a "Kodak advantix switchable flash camera" , another a "Kodak Max HQ" and the
third one didn't have a flash. I opened up the advantix camera (quite difficult to open without breaking it) and had a look insite. I found the place w here you touch the button
on the outside to charge up the flash. Thinking my screw driver was insulated, i pressed it with my metal screwdriver (plastic handle). Nothing happened. I pressed it a couple
more times then ZAP! Both my arms felt like w hen you hit your funny bone. I dropped the camera and was stunned for a min or so. No permanent damage cept for some shaky
arms. I picked it up and noticed the yellow LED w as on, and i didn't w ant to try touching it again. I put it on the floor, facing up and threw my screw driver on it. The flash it
made was so bright it blinded me for about 20 seconds. That had shorted out all the circuts on the board... Oops :p
I decided to try the 2nd camera. I opened it up and it works all fine now. I have to take out the flash and get some solder and solder some wires to where the flash used to be.
I'll probably do that today (monday) and i'll tell you my results.

I just had an idea for these camera modules. They could be changed to w ork as short time delay ignition systems for grenades.
Take the LED out (the one that flashes w hen the capacitor is fully charged) and attach a small relay switch from the contacts to the relay coil (probably have to use a small
voltage transistor for this instead).
Attach the wires from the capacitor to an electrical ignitor. In this firing circuit, make a break which is connected to the output contacts on the relay.
So now, when you connect the battery (or have a slide switch to connect it) the capacitor starts to charge. When it if fully charged it will activate the relay coil and close the
firing circuit which in turn fires a detonator.
You can change the time delay by using a smaller or larger battery (smaller takes longer to charge the capacitor and larger w ould be quicker). Or use a resistor on the battery.
You could also (more work) use a variable resistor and calibrate it so you can choose the time delay by turning the knob on the variable resistor.
So what do you think of this idea? Can anyone think of any improvements on this?
I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Prodigy45- Connect the w ires DIRECTLY to the capacitor. On mine there is a resistor before the flash bulb. I don't know if there is one on yours but better safe than sorry. :)
J March 18th, 2002, 04:25 PM

Just a small tip: when you open up anything electrical that generates voltages of greater than around 50v, short out any caps with an insulated screwdriver. Getting shocked by
one of these isn't too bad, but bigger caps are very unforgiving.
I'd never w ant to rely on one of these circuits as a timer for explosives. If nothing else w as available, it could work, but I'd always use a secondary (pyrotechnic) fuse to give
me a safety margin.

I found a zip file for a cattle prod on the ftp. I've done all of it and hooked up all the wires. Im just trying to charge the capacitor right now but it's not w orking. Im going to try
some more things before i sw itch the capacitor.

Ok, i got it to Work! Damn im excited. I w as touching the leads to the wrong side ( instead of plus to plus, minus to minus, i was putting them minus to plus etc).
I took the fully charged capacitor (in a film container wrapped with duct tape) and dropped it on a quarter. It made a nice little spark w hich is all i really want, not too much but
not too little. If anyone has questions ask away

well, 5 hours later and 2 more disposable cameras later im still stumped. The zap gun i got working died after 2 or 3 zaps on a coin. I couldn't find out w hat happened, so i took
it all apart. I figured i blew the capacitor so i took the duct tape off it and put it on the floor. Well i bumped my screwdriver into it and it made a huge crack and now i have 2
small holes on my screwdriver. I bought an insulated screwdriver and 2 more free disposable cameras. I took apart the first one and was holding the capacitor when i felt a prick
on my finger then my arms went numb again, i had shocked myself :( (not having too much luck on this am i?). Anyway, i dropped the circutboard on my screwdriver and it
went pop. Now that w as a dud i trashed it and opened the next camera. Everything was fine until i tried to take the capacitor off. It went pop when i accidently touched the 2
legs together.
My observation is to make a working model, you CANNOT let the 2 legs touch together. That renders the capacitor useless... More to come when i find more cameras.

Dude! .. you sound like you are having the same problem as me! (look at my post above).The capacitor is not the problem. It's the wires! They keep on melting and create this
black shit w hich acts as an insulator on the contacts!
This is why when you remove the capacitor it will still make a spark (no problem with the capacitor).
Don't take the capacitor off (as in the PDF file)! Just attach some wires to the legs of it!
You w ill have to replace the w ires every now and again ( yes, a pain in the ass!) but I can't see any other w ay around it sorry! :(
They are cool though! :)
Good luck! <img border= "0" title= "" alt= "[Wink]" src="w ink.gif" />
BaDSeeD March 19th, 2002, 09:15 AM

These two need to post before and after pictures so w e can see the change in their hair after repetedly frying themselves..lol

Sadly i don't have a digital camera so i can't really take pics.
Badseed: I went to radioshack yesterday and bought 10 alligator clips. I think i'll try using those and they shouldn't melt.
[ March 19, 2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Prodigy45 ]
J March 19th, 2002, 02:02 PM

I don't like flaming people for lack of knowledge, but for fucks sake, what do you think?
Please do at least some searching on the net before posting here. You should be able to at least apply logic; the capacitor stores the charge at a high voltage, so of course you
connect leads to it if you w ant to shock people w ith it!

Seriously man, how many more cameras is it going to take? At least it's funny hearing about you constantly shocking yourself:)
Use some bolts (M4+) for electrodes, they stand up well to repeat discharges.
PYRO500 March 20th, 2002, 09:14 PM

The capacitors in camera flash circuits are usually around 330V max, they normally charge up to ~300V in circuit, the black stuff you refer to is probably oxidized coating of the
metal, and beware these capacitors can be lethal, avoid a shock at all costs, they can kill you. I beleve they are around 8 J 20J being threshhold deadly, my home capacitor
bank witch is 2100J can repell an aluminum disk from a coil of w ire fast enough to really smack my cieling hard and knock off the popcorn (ugly white bumps)
Shiper March 23rd, 2002, 01:32 AM
can you please post the plan for the cowprod??
i'm interested................
J March 23rd, 2002, 06:30 AM

It's on the FTP, learn to read properly.
electric emu May 10th, 2002, 12:43 AM

i made one of those zappers and it sounds about the sames as every one elses here but it seems fine and ive zapped many people, including me, also when i touched my sink
to discharge it, it left a nice little dent and it burnt me when i got shocked. i think my camera was a fuji
[ May 09, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
Tcell May 20th, 2002, 08:28 PM

I've personally made two different models of this tazer... One is just the standard tazer except I upped the voltage to 9 VDC(a nine volt battery fits almost perfectly into the film
compartment on a Le Clic camera) with the flash left on as an alternative to carrying many flash bombs. The object with this one w as to keep it looking as much like a camera
as possible. The flash is operated independently of the tazer part (tazer just discharges the capacitor through wires, flash discharges it through the flash tube).
My second tazer is my experimental one, which looks NOTHING like a camera... so far it has the flash removed, the tazer leads connected to the flash capacitator on one side
and w ood screws on the other to keep it from melting, a headphone jack connected to w here the flash used to be, so that leads for an electrical detonator can be plugged in
(they are soldered onto the male part of the headphone jack), and am w orking on adding a way to add a CO2 cylinder to shoot around 10' leads out of the front with enough
force to stab through heavy clothing -- possibly using fishhooks so that it will stick.
____________________
Maj. Tcell
Cyberarmy VB C:O:D:E:R:S C/O
<a href="http://www .vbcoders.vze.com" target="_blank">www .vbcoders.vze.com< /a>
____________________
mongo blongo May 20th, 2002, 09:00 PM

The second one sounds cool! You might need a quite a few capacitors to put someone on their ass though. You could use some induction coils.
McGuyver May 20th, 2002, 09:33 PM

A larger spark could be made by hooking the two wires from the capacitor up to a magneto (from a small gas engine), or a starter coil(the ones found in cars). The magneto or
starter coil should make a decent-sized (long) spark. The spark w ill be much like that of a grill ignitor but, probably longer and more powerful. I built a stun gun like this. My
stun gun uses two C batteries and that gets transformed up to about 600-700 VDC by a homemade transformer and capacitors, and that gets pumped into 2 magnetos. That
makes about 105,000 volts(10.5 cm arc length). The magnetos are glued bottom to bottom to concentrate magnetitism and that increases curret.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Electromagnets on Gauss Gun
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View Full Version : Electromagnets on Gauss Gun

O n t h e p o s t a b o u t R ailguns, a few peo p l e m e n t i o n e d t h e gauss gun; a linear accelerator. I found it very interesting, m ainly
because it can easily be m ade out of household materials. After thinking about it for a while, I con sidered several ways of how
to m ake it as powerful as possible, as well as other ways to im prove upon the design of it to m ake it more practical.
O n e i d e a i n v o l v e d h a v i n g t h e m a g n e t s o n t h e g u n b e i n g e l e c t r o m agnets, therefore when you flipped a switch or something,

the m agnets would be charged for a split second, allowing the steel balls to m ove towards the m agnets and shift their kinetic
energy to the magnet and so on... After the shot, the electricity would be s t o p p e d a n d t h e steel balls between the m a g n e t s
would be allowed to m ove back to their original positions. It would have a capacitor bank that charges up for each shot, and
d e v e l o p s a h igh volta ge to m a k e t h e m a g n e t s a s p o w e f u l a s p o s s i b l e , h e n c e m aking it shoot hard er. Does anyone know if this
idea of m ine would actually work? And if so, what kind o f results could i e xpect from this?

You seem to have a very strange idea of what a coil gun is...
Do a search on altavista.com or som ething. Try ("coil gun" and electrom agnets and capacitors), yo u should get quite a few
detailed instructions on how they can be built.

he wasnt referring to a coil gun, rather the kine tic transfer magnet gun that i m entioned in the railgun thread.
this would work but a coil gun would be m ore efficient and easier. you really can get all that m uch speed from the other type
because of firctional losses and heat g ained by the m a r b l e . t o o b t a i n a n y a p p r e c i a b l e s p e e d s , y o u w o u l d h a v e t o h a v e s o
m any m agnets that the ball would build up enough heat to melt.
nbk2000 March 18th, 2002, 01:35 AM

I'm constantly am azed at how people divert their energies into trival ideas that have no hope of success.
Do you REALLY think that you, with an obviously shoestring (literally) budget and no advanced eng ineering degree, can achieve
what the U S Military Industrial Com plex, with unlimited funds and the best engineers and scientists in the world haven't in
m ore than 20 years of experim e n t i n g ?
Does that m a k e a n y s e n s e t o y o u ? I h ope so, 'cause otherwise, you're living in La-La Land.
Now quite wasting our tim e with this no n s e n s e .
This also applies to EMP, railguns, particle accelerators, cold-fusion, zero-point energy, perpetual motion, a nd other bullshit.
End topic.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > I'm making a grenade launcher and need help
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View Full Version : I'm making a grenade launcher and need help

Hello this is A-BOMB and I'm makeing a 37/40mm grenade launcher and
need some help with the specsfics. Now I have a 1.5" steel pipe that I've reamed out to 1.575 inches which is 40mm. Now is I need the help what are the outside dimenstions
of a 40x46mm case?
Now onto the action I'm thinking of a sharps rifle(dropping block) type action or a hinge type action. And anyone know where I can pick
up some empties in the Pittsburgh PA area? or close to it?
nbk2000 March 21st, 2002, 12:26 AM

Pick up a copy of "Shotgun News" at the magazine rack or gunshop. Inside you'll find ads for nylon 40mm cases for $1 each in lots of 50 or more.
I'd think a copy of the small arms ammo PDF, volume two (which I provided) would provide the answer for case size. It's on the FTP.
BTW, 40mm is prohibited for civilian possession in the US. But 37mm is fine.
Are you planning on rifling the barrel?
EP March 21st, 2002, 01:30 AM

40mm is illegal but 37mm is ok? That seems a bit ridiculous. Any idea why? Maybe so civilians can't use the military ammo?
A-BOMB March 21st, 2002, 02:07 AM

Well its 40mm for right now because I would need a barrel smaller that what I have for a 37mm(1.46") And now I think rifling the barrel would be to hard but I see about it.
And I can't ever find a copy of "shotgun news" but "special weapons" and "solder of forture" are easy.
nbk2000 March 21st, 2002, 02:32 AM

Here, I'll make it easy for you:
<a href="http://www.shotgunnews.com/gunad/adinfo2.dog?nclass=S5800" target="_blank">"Reloading Supplies" at shotgunnews.com</a>
Paper is so 20th century anyways. :p
EP, that's EXACTLY why you can't own 40mm without a BATF DD permit.
[ March 21, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
A-BOMB March 21st, 2002, 12:07 PM

Would it be a DD if I made it so it couldn't take a standard lenght military 40mm round, like I make the chamber only 40mm instead of the standard 46mm? So a military
round wouldn't fit in the chamber.
nbk2000 March 22nd, 2002, 12:22 AM

It's not the length, it's the caliber, that ATF would arrest you for.
Download the PDF called "consequences" from the FTP. It's a good read, and explains what kind of people ATF is.
RTC March 22nd, 2002, 12:48 AM

It's seem's pretty pathtic to be arrested over 3mm's!
nbk2000 March 22nd, 2002, 01:41 AM

The ATF executed (no other way to describe it) Randy Weavers dog, son, wife, and best friend over a shotgun barrel that was cut a half inch (1/2"!) under the 18" limit. And
this was at the behest of an ATF informant who paid Weaver $200 to do it. Mind you, the guy kept refusing to do it, but financial pressures and lack of food for the family
compelled him to do it.
Set up all the way.
So rest assured that 3mm difference WILL get you locked up. Read the book, it's just the tip of the iceburg.
ENGINEERKILLER March 22nd, 2002, 11:41 AM

Keep in mind if you wind up with your ass in court your gonna be judged by people who haven't the slightest clue about weapons ,legal or illegal the only thing they are gonna
know are the words "grenade launcher".I have seen more than one person get sent up the river because of jhon Q publics fear of the unknown.
A-BOMB March 22nd, 2002, 02:07 PM

Damn now I have to get another barrel! DAMN YOU ATF! Now, thats out
of my system, now I have to get a new piece of stock and find someone
to drill it out to 37mm or I could just put a 37mm liner in the barrel I already have.
Xtramad March 22nd, 2002, 02:39 PM

<a href="http://37mm.com/" target="_blank">All you need to know and much more</a>
Madog555 March 22nd, 2002, 04:30 PM

A-Bomb, why do you care, just make it 40mm. you didn't do anything wrong unless you got caught
A-BOMB March 22nd, 2002, 08:14 PM

Xtramad, I already got that site booked marked, and now that I think of it who cares about the ATF. And I think I'll some drawings of what it's going to look like by monday or
so.
A-BOMB April 1st, 2002, 12:31 AM

Well I'm very ticked becauce I was looking at the inside of my barrel and notice that it is off center nere the chamber and that won't allow me to use it :mad: and the machine
shop won't give me a refund :mad: . Well now I making a 38.1 mm one that just uses 1.5" copper pipe and fittings, so any one here should be able to build one from just one
trip to lowe's or truevalue. This is how the barrel should look (I know this looks crappy)
.........~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[
..............................------{------------------------======----|---}[
.................................................. ........................................|.....[
.................................................. ............................................)))))) )
.................................................. ........................................|......[
..............................------{------------------------======----|---}[
.........~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[
"~" is ABS pipe in 1.5"
"-" is 1.5" copper pipe
"=" is a 1.5" copper coupling
"|" Is a washer that fits in the 1.5" pipe
"[" is a washer glued to the washer that fits inside the pipe
"(" is a #209 shotshell primer
For get the periods their there to keep it all in place.
Now that you seen this schetch, heres my Idea the barrel and all the shells are made of 1.5" copper pipe and are connected together by a 1.5" coupler that had the nibs inside
sanded out. Now you need two washers one that fits in the pipe and another that is large anothe as to make a rim around the out side of the shell, both of these shells need to
be able to fit a #209 shotshell primer. Now this hole barrel is put into a peice of 1.5" ABS pipe that has been carved out or sanded to fit the 1.5" copper barrel/coupler/
shellthing in.
So what do you guys think of my idea?
And Xtramad, didn't you have more pic and plans in this topic? or did you start another one? <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000329" target="_blank">This topic here.</a>
[ March 31, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]
BoB- April 1st, 2002, 05:53 AM

I dont mean this as an insult, but it takes less than an hour to draw something in paint, compress it, then upload it to a webpage. I've been a member here for a few years
and I have never ever understood an ascii drawing.
A-BOMB April 1st, 2002, 12:40 PM

Well sorry BOB for the asci drawing, because I had drawn up some in paint but the FTP woulfn't allow me to conncet right then so I'll try late to link that one here instead. And
that 40 mm Barrel has me so mad too I paid 20 dollars just for the steel rod stock, and another 15 for them to drill it out for me :mad: . And for any one in Ambridge(15003
zip) Pennsylvainia area (a old steel mill town 15 miles south Pittsburgh, at least I think its south could be wrong.)
Well I was down there seeing some reletives on saturday and found this cool gunshop out on the edge of town, they are really well stocked with m-16's, any type of AK
(sks,ak-47,ak-74,akm, ak-94 anything) and they have 40mm and 37mm nylon cases and a few alunium case too I think? and They just in one of those new AR-150's in .50
BMG, they also sell 50 bmg ball and traser(are traser the ones with the red painted tip?) and 5.45x39, 7.62x39 and they gas masks anying under the sun if your close to them
got take alook.
Oh heres the directions get one to DUSS ave. and go down it you should pass their highschool, then a old steel mill, then after that a dairy mart, and keep on going you will
see on the left you should see Waste Managment of Pittsbugh then a (all of these first things are all on the left) then alittle past that on the right you will see Micheals bar then
a intersection and right past the intersection you will see "GUZCKS gunstore and locksmiths" they are open from 1PM to 5PM everyday (i guess) and if you see a "jubleie"
grocery store on the right you have gone to far.
RTC April 1st, 2002, 12:47 PM

Use <a href="http://www.mapblast.com/">MapBlast</a> Input the address/postal number of where it is, and where your coming from and it'll give you step by step
direction's and a map too, and it's free!
Ctrl_C April 1st, 2002, 02:48 PM

A-BOMB, when you make this, I wanna get together and see it. Whaddaya think? :)

Good lord! I have to save you from yourself.
NEVER post your real name, face, address, phone number, or any other personal identifying information on the internet.
EVER!
And certainly not maps pointing straight to your house.
:rolleyes:
Can you say "Jack Boot Thugs, please come raid up so we can be Tyrone's and Bubba's bitches."?
That why God invented e-mail. Use it.

NBK, it wasn't my house it was a map to a gun store I just found a few days ago when I was out visiting relitives, and by the way I don't every live it that town or county. And
NBK why did you think it was a map to my house? its a map to a gunstore/locksmiths. So heres the map to Guzycks supply store.
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Uploads=-/Linked%20Pictures/mapimage.gif" alt="" />
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Uploads=-/Linked%20Pictures/mapimage%202.gif" alt="" />
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/-=Uploads=-/Linked%20Pictures/mapimage%203.gif" alt="" />
[ April 01, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 12:55 AM

Last I saw this topic I see ctrl_c saying "lets get together" and then you've got maps posted. Natural (if erroneous) assumption on my part.
And it's better to err on the side of caution, now isn't it?
And while I've got your attention, why do you say in some of your posts "Hello this is A-BOMB ..."? It's pretty obvious who it is, isn't it? :D
I take it your barrel was turned to 37mm? Perhaps the machinist fucked it up on purpose, knowing it's probably end use? Wouldn't be surprising.
Arkangel April 3rd, 2002, 09:20 PM

Browsing a link from NBK, I came across this:
<a href="http://www.pop-inc.com/POP_Cat_Pg23.html" target="_blank">http://www.pop-inc.com/POP_Cat_Pg23.html</a>
Don't know if this fits the bill, but I have to say it looks a whole load cheaper, and much easier to conceal than a dedicated 40mm launcher. An uneducated porker is not going
to look twice at something like this in a load of junk in your garage, and for that matter, the bits of a slam bang you made at the same time.
A-BOMB April 14th, 2002, 02:13 AM

Well I started to design and get parts but have no real time to start get in it working but I did have time to make this animation of how the action on the launcher will work,
there are 2 versions fast and slow.
fast version (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/a_bomb_the_forum/vwp?.dir=/My+Documents&.dnm=grenade+launcher+animation+by+A-

BOMB.gif&.src=bc&.view=l&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/a_bom b_the_forum/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bDocuments%26.src=bc%26.view=l)
slow version (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/a_bomb_the_forum/vwp?.dir=/My+Documents&.dnm=grenade+launcher+animation+(slow)by+A-

BOMB+.gif&.src=bc&.view=l&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/b c/a_bomb_the_forum/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bDocuments%26.src=bc%26.view=l)
And this is a 20gauge idea demostartor that I built.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/a_bomb_the_forum/vwp?.dir=/My+Documents&.dnm=Picture+46.jpg&.src=bc&.view=l&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/
a_bomb_the_forum/lst%3f%26.dir= /My%2bDocuments%26.src=bc%26.view=l
James April 14th, 2002, 03:04 AM

IIRC, people were having trouble accessing files from NBKs Yahoo briefcase. I think Yahoo implemented a new security "feature", breaking access to briefcase contents.
nbk2000 April 14th, 2002, 03:56 AM

What's happened is that Yahoo! has gone punk on us!
They're new thing is to make it so you have to pay for their "Premium Service" if you want to make your briefcase publicly accessible.
They probably did this because of all the porn movie swappers using the yahoo briefcase for posting their movie series.
Anyways, I'm no longer posting files to the briefcase anyways. All those files and more will be on the DVD.
A-bomb, you'll just have to upload it to the ftp once that's up again.
A-BOMB April 14th, 2002, 12:18 PM

Thanks NBK, I didn't know that. And is the FTP still down?
nbk2000 April 14th, 2002, 02:24 PM

It's down till we sort out the problem of leeches and passwords.
A-BOMB June 7th, 2002, 01:49 AM

Well I have amassed the part and already started to build my launcher and it should be done by the end of this month. Its going to be a 40mm, and its going to look like
shit(that happens when you put it together from bits and peices of this and that(rattraps,clocks and paintballguns). So as soon as I get some of it done I post some pics of
what I have done.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised "claymore"
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xoo1246 March 22nd, 2002, 09:33 PM

Haven't been posting for a while.
Felt like sharing a little experiment I have been dreaming about.
In that dream I constructed a very basic "claymore",
consisting of 63 nails placed against some 200 grams of AN/NM/AL and initiated by a 4 grams HTMD electric blasting cap.
After that I placed the "claymore" some 10-15 meters from an old sheet that was hung up between to trees. I retired to some cover and detonated the thing. The sheet was
ripped down and had 11 large holes in it(17% hit ratio on a farly large target ), one tree had holes in it and I recovered one nail. I also inproved my blasting box to use a
220000uF 25V condensator together with 3 9v batteries (yes thats 3 V too much but I don't charge it fully). I painted some pictures in psp to show you what my dream looked
like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
In no order at all:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/200gANNMAL63NailsClaymore.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/
200gANNMAL63NailsClaymore.jpg</a>
(yes it's uggly)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ClaymoreAndTarget.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ClaymoreAndTarget.jpg</a>
(back of claymore in the bottom of the image)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/Condensator440000uF11V.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/
Condensator440000uF11V.jpg</a> (discharge through a screwdriver)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ImprovedBlastingBox.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ImprovedBlastingBox.jpg</a>
(not very professional looking)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/RecoveredNail.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/RecoveredNail.jpg</a> (note that the
head has been blown off)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TouchedByFragments.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TouchedByFragments.jpg</a>
(I found one nail here)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TreeDamaged.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TreeDamaged.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TreeDamagedClose.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/TreeDamagedClose.jpg</a>
I guess it would be more effective to use steel balls and use the monroe(same effect as in shaped charges can't recall if thats the name) effect to direct more energy torwards
the fragments.
Now please leave you comment and ideas.
/ xoo1246
DBSP March 22nd, 2002, 10:23 PM

Wher tha fuck have you been Xoo I've been missing you. Nice claymore, what did you pay for your digit camera the cheapest I culd find costs 2000kr. I'll buy one soon.
RTC March 22nd, 2002, 11:24 PM

You took a video of this if im correct, and the video show's something hitting the sheet. And something knocking back the sheet, (nails) right?
DBSP March 22nd, 2002, 11:44 PM

It's not a video It's only pics.. How wide was the charge.. and how long was the distance to the target. An what was the size of the target.. sorry to bother you...
nbk2000 March 22nd, 2002, 11:49 PM

Check out this <a href="http://www.pop-inc.com/POP_Cat_Pg15.html" target="_blank">Sting Ball Claymore</a> that the piggies get to play with.
<img src="http://www.pop-inc.com/imgs/POPix168.jpg" alt="" />
Seems simple enough. Just a solid steel box with a bunch of rubber balls on top of a flashpowder propellant charge.
RTC March 23rd, 2002, 12:00 AM

I'm sure I've definatly seen a video of it.
DBSP March 23rd, 2002, 12:05 AM

I don't know if Xoo has a digital video recorder, but as I remember it he only has a still picture camera (digital).
[ March 22, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
Jack Ruby March 23rd, 2002, 12:24 AM

I assume That that is in Sweden? It looks Beatiful there. How densely populated is it there?
Good work. What about using Flechettes. They are supposed to go righte through Body Armour, Plant life, etc. like nothing. It is also my understanding that they have quite
range due to being Dart Shaped.
DBSP March 23rd, 2002, 12:50 AM

Sweden is lovely the density is about 19/km2 I belive. No one would object if you would like to shoot a gun (any kind). They are so used to hearing gunshots, since it's so
many that hunt in sweden. A 200g ANNM charge is heard as a gunshot at a distance of about 4km if you are inside a house or similar. So NO problem!!!
xoo1246 March 23rd, 2002, 08:46 AM

DBSP: Had to pay 2500 kr (250$) for it. The claymore was 15 cm wide and had two layers of nails. The distance to the target was 10-15 meters and the size of the target is
the size of your sheet in your bed.
ENGINEERKILLER March 24th, 2002, 12:29 PM

A good form for an improvised claymore is a cheap plastic soap dish you can glue the frag to the top of the lid and pack explosives behind it try to keep your point of initiation
as centered as possible this will give the most uniform frag pattern.
[ March 24, 2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: ENGINEERKILLER ]
Bitter March 24th, 2002, 02:11 PM

Does the material the claymore itself is made of seem to make any difference to the performance ? Which would be the optimum shape for it ? Perhaps if the claymore was
concaved instead of convexed, then perhaps you might get a 'shaped charge' effect and increased penetration of the target.
xoo1246 March 24th, 2002, 04:42 PM
Bitter: I agree with you (read my post again).
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "An eye for an eye makes the
whole world go blind." Says Ghandi. I say : Wake up and smell the coffee; dead men don't shoot back.<hr /></blockquote>The problem is their brothers and sisters do. KCN in your coffee.
Bitter March 25th, 2002, 11:34 AM

Not if you shoot them too.
xoo1246 March 25th, 2002, 11:53 AM

See, you started to poke out one eye. Now you are forced to poke out new ones not to get your eye poked out. And soon the world is blind.
Solution: make it look like an accident. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

What does eye poking have to do with claymore's? Stay on topic!
NBK, on that site you gave, it say's that that "non letal" claymore can be vehical mounted, well this has it's uses in the crimey world, perhaps you could take the headlight's of
a car, and mould it into the headlight space?
The headlights will still have to work so not to draw attention, unless your working during the day, but it's always a good idea to have lights when you need them.
Oh, replacing the rubber balls for steal ball's, nail's, all sorts of nasty's, would make it more affective, unless that's not your aim of course.
vulture March 25th, 2002, 01:36 PM

How about a starmine loaded with flash and nails aimed at the target?
A little kewlish friend of mine once filled a drinking glass with nails and just stuck a firecracker (here in Belgium you can buy fairly powerful ones the whole year long) in it and
set it off.
He had to dive for cover to avoid the glass and nail shrapnel....
zaibatsu March 25th, 2002, 02:08 PM

Could you not use a piece of steel channel, and then bend that either inwards or outwards to get a nice convex/concave shape? You could weld steel plate to the ends, or just
bend the ends of the channel in.
Bubba April 3rd, 2002, 06:30 PM

I have the Ragnar Benson book Improvised Claymores. Also have it scanned to .pdf format. Basicly he used a piece of steel plate for the back, an explosive charge, then MILD
steel ball bearings in a matrix of wax (I believe). I'll get that .pdf back out and take a look to be sure. Decent book btw.

That POP stingmore site has some amazing stuff on it NBK, thanks for that!
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 11:29 PM

Why don't you upload the claymore PDF to the FTP so the rest of us can read it, hmm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I have one of ragners "encyclopedias" :rolleyes: wherein it describes his claymore. It uses cut up 8" PVC pipe sections, rebar, and plastic baggies with the explosive behind a
cardboard retainer of ball bearings.
Rather amatuerish I'm afraid. Maybe the book you have is a version 2?
Whitey April 4th, 2002, 12:53 AM

The white resistance manual discusses homemade claymores. I uploaded it to the FTP a few days ago (it's in the "recent" folder). I am pretty sure it is the same design NBK is
talking about.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > A Ray Gun
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Stalker March 26th, 2002, 12:47 PM

Hi @ all
Im new in this Forum, but not a Newbie!!!

I have a little Question to you:
Does somebody know the Book "Poor Mans Ray Gun" ???
Have Somebody build this Weapon???
I have heard from this Book, but it is impossible to become it here in Germany.
Have Somebody a Scan of it? If Yes, please send it to me, and i give you many other Dokoments like this (I have a lot of other Intresting stuff)
I also Interrested in this Book "Butane Lighter Handgranade"
Please help me !!!
THX from Germany

Stalker
(Sorry about my Bad Englisch)
xoo1246 March 26th, 2002, 12:52 PM

Hrm.
PYRO500 March 26th, 2002, 01:07 PM

that book sounds like a book I saw for sale at <a href="http://www.amazing1.com" target="_blank">www.amazing1.com</a> their site is total crap, when it sounds too
good to be true it always is.

The lighter hand grenade is rather crude n kewl, but I belive it's in NBK's PDF.
As for that book, check the FTP.
And yet another n00b posting a new topic on there first post. :rolleyes:
[ March 26, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: RTC ]
Stalker March 26th, 2002, 01:26 PM

Sorry where can i find the Ftp...
Im not so good with Computer, my Hobbys are Weapons !!!
a_bab March 26th, 2002, 02:00 PM

I can hear NBK's steps getting closer :D

They be not NBKs footsteps...
I'll just close the topic for now, and leave it for the other mods to read. Talking of reading, why don't you give it a go?
READ THE RULES

'nuff said
nbk2000 March 26th, 2002, 05:18 PM

I have a copy of the "butane lighter handgrenade" (Yeah, right!). It's total bullshit. Basically you put flashpowder in it and make a tube to run some cannon fuse down. Mind
you, you're lighting an M-80 in your hand. Get it wrong, and they'll be calling you "Stumpy".
And there's no way in hell I'm putting that crap in my book.
<a href="http://www.amazing1.com" target="_blank">www.amazing1.com</a> is a rip-off joint. I bought something from them years ago. They called it a laser and
charged $40 for it, but it was just a bright red LED with a lens mounted in a PVC tube. And they wouldn't refund my money.
PUNKS! :mad:
The "ray gun" book is also bogus. "Use a household microwave to set things on fire from 300 yards". Oh please! :rolleyes: If that's the case, why isn't the army carrying "ray
guns" made by Amana?
I'm going to lay off the n00bees for a while. I'll leave the HEDing of the idiots to our new mods. They need the excercise after having been cooped up in the TBA section. :D
SEEK AND DESTROY!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Spud Gun
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Ericm115 August 22nd, 2001, 02:42 AM

I m p l a n n i n g o n m a k i n g a p n e u m a t i c ( s p . ) s p u d g u n , a n d s i n c e I d o n t h a v e a c o m presser, I was thinking of adding an
attatchment so I can refill It with m y 24oz paintball tank. Any idea what the psi of a co2 paintball tank usually is? And how
m any shots I m ight get out of it?
Anthony August 22nd, 2001, 10:02 PM

Around 800psi, proba bly quite a bit m o r e o n a h o t d a y .
If you do this your gun will almost definitely explode. If you don 't know what you're doing with high pressure gas do n't m e s s
with it.
CyclonitePyro August 23rd, 2001, 12:04 AM

Hey, you cou ld buy a rem ote, coiled or steel braided, buy a m ale plug adapter, the rem ote will com e with one, insta ll that on
t h e s i d e o f t h e g u n , t h e n p u t t h e t a n k o n t h e o ther side of the rem ote and use that little dial to let in just a bit of co2, put a
pressure gauge on your gun to be safe.
DoH BoY August 23rd, 2001, 10:20 AM

cyclonitepyro I think that would be a little to com plicated finding just the right valve and all (especially one that will hold the
pressure of a co2 tank). And id have to agree with anthony dont try anything untill u know 100% exactly wh at u are doing.
[This message has been edited by DoH BoY (edited August 23, 2001).]
CyclonitePyro August 23rd, 2001, 09:43 PM

I don't think you understand what I am talking of, go here: http://www.calm edia.org/rem ote_system s.htm
The side that has a little knob is where you screw in your tank, then glue the other side into the ch a m b e r o f y o u r g u n . I n s t a l l a
p r e s s u r e g a u g e t h a t g o e s t h r o u g h t h e c h a m ber wall.
Turn the little knob clockwise on the end of the remote line and look at the pressure gauge, when the pressure reads close to
the burst pre ssure of your PVC turn the knob counterclockwise to stop the flow of air from your co2 tank. then shoot.
[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited August 23, 2001).]
DoH BoY August 24th, 2001, 12:56 AM

oh i see...
well that seem s pretty safe to me.
b u t r e m e m ber dont com e too close to burst pressure or else BOO M!

That isn't safe! What if the valve sticks open? W hat if the pressure gauge isn't working properly? W hat if he acciden tally leaves
t h e v a l v e o p e n a f r a c t i o n ? T h e r e s u l t i s t h e g u n e x p l o d i n g l i k e a p i p e b o m b.
Even if the valve were shut off at say, 200psi, the pressure in the gun wo uld still raise as the cold CO2 expands to room
temperature. God forbid any liquid CO2 should pass into there!
The only safe way to do this would be with a regulator and probably a pressure relief valve fitted to the gun too.

They already thought of that, this is a worldwide sport, it wouldn't be this popular if co2 tanks blew up when you left them ou t
in the sun, buy the top part of a co2 tank, glue that to the side of your g un, they have burst disks, pressure goes to high...
p o p s h h h h h h h h h h h . . . , s u r e t h i s i s g e t t i n g e x p e nsive but it's your arm , body, leg, face crotch at sta ke, but hey, your priceless.
W ith all that pressure behind the pin valve of a co2 tank, it won't stick shut.
And if you saw that the pressure was rising up just push the solo noid valve, or other valve opening m ech. a nd let all the
pressure sho ot out.
BoB- August 25th, 2001, 05:06 AM

W e're not talking about paintball guns here, which have high-pressure re gulators that prevent explosions. W e're talking abo ut
PVC spudguns.
B e s i d e s d u d e , I s a w a f o o t p u m p c a p a b l e o f o v e r 1 0 0 p s i i n W alMart yesterday for $15.00 there's no need to risk your life with
expensive Co2, just buy a bicycle pump.
AmonDin August 31st, 2001, 03:19 AM

Jesus christ, anybody who has ever m ade a spudgun knows how stupid it is to put 1200 PSI of co2 into their pneumatic spud
s h o o t e r s d e s i g n e d f o r 7 5 - 2 0 0 p s i . I h a v e a f r i e n d w h o a s k e d m e t o d o a c o n v e r s i o n l i k e t h is for him. I told him it was a bad
idea , but he didn't believe m e. So I did a little demonstration, I quick did a m o c k u p c o m p r e s s i o n c h a m ber like you would find
o n a p n e u m atic spudgun, only with both ends sealed. I hooked it up with a few brass adapters to the large C02 tank I use to
refill m y 9oz pball tanks. I had us both hid behind a very large and thick concrete wall, flipped the valve, and BOOM. PVC
shra pnel eve rywhere. I put a waterm elon next to it to dem onstrate the effect such an explosion would have on a pe rson, the
d a m n thing didn't have any pieces larger than 3" across left.
It convinced him to drop his idea and stick to a bycicle pum p. I'm just happy he came to m e instead of trying it him self. I
don't want to find bits of m y friend decorating his parent's garag e, and I don't think any o f you want that either.
Just drop the C02 ide a and spring for a small com pressor or bike tire pum p. Sma ll price to pay if you want to keep your hands/
arms/interna l organs attatched.
CyclonitePyro September 2 nd, 2001, 03:40 PM

I just noticed som e t h i n g a b o u t my idea, the pressure relief valve for C 02 tanks lets air ou t at arou nd 900psi, that's obviously
not gonna work for a pvc spudgun.
If you can find a pressure relief valve under the rating for the PVC then I think this would be a perfectly safe idea.
Kdogg S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 01:29 AM

I h a v e a p n e umatic spudgun with a 1 1/2 inch interchan geable barrel. I have a couple more sizes also. Anyways back to the
subject. I just use an air com pressor O r a foot pum p. I would NEVER use c02. If you dont have an air compressor, buy a foot
p u m p, or m a k e a c o m b u s t i o n g u n .
------------------
Monkeym an
The_Coyote S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 01:28 PM

at m o s t a d o m otive stores they sell sm all compressers that run of the cigarette outlet in a car, they are capable of 3 00psi, i got
one for 30 bucks canadian, quite cheap actually.
------------------
Gun control is being able to hit your target.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Letter Bombs
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Fernet March 26th, 2002, 03:42 PM

I h a v e s o m e q u e s t i o n s r e g a r d i n g l e t t e r b o m b s ( i n m y eyes one of the m ost form idable weapons known to m an, perfect for
reve n g e ) . D o e s a n y o n e o f y o u g u y s h a v e s o m e p l a n s o r d i a g r a m s of letter bom bs or som e g o o d i d e a s a b o u t h o w o n e c o u l d
b e m a n u f a c t u r e d ? T h e o n l y i n f o r m ation I have is an not very detailed article in " Terrorist Explosives Handbook Vol.1 - The
IRA " .
BTW : I som ewhere read that copper chloride re leases its chlorine when heated above 200 degree celsius.
1. Is this true ?
2. W ould it b e effective to use a mixtu re of black powder/flash powder and copper chloride in a letter bomb ( would chlorine be
released on ignition ? ) ? Every response is appreciated ...
HOOPS123 March 26th, 2002, 03:49 PM

you are fucked. nuf sed.
Xtramad March 26th, 2002, 04:12 PM

If you don't have the knowledge to m ake it, yo u don't have the wisdom to use it.
And anyway, you should have more sense than to ask.
Read the rules!

K3\/\/3l! Die Die Die! :mad:
PYRO500 March 26th, 2002, 04:39 PM

Look it's the revenge of the kewls, don't post a topic as a first post!

I've closed two topics in one d ay! How m any m ore fuckers are going to post?
Anyway, READ THE FU CKING RU LES. DO NOT MAKE YO U R F I R S T P O S T B Y S T A R T I N G A T O P I C . I n s t e ad, hang around a little,
learn, then start to re ply to topics, and w h e n y o u h a v e b e c o m e l e a r n e d e nough THEN you can make a topic. NBK m a y h a v e
m ore to say on this m atter, but until then, consider this topic CLO SED.
nbk2000 March 26th, 2002, 05:26 PM

W hy close a topic when you can delete a lam e ?
Oi vay! :p
End of topic, end of lam e.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised E-Bombs
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cutefix August 22nd, 2001, 07:51 AM

There is the latest issue in Popular Science Magazine dated September 2001.It is displayed in the cover , the E-Bombs(Electromagnetic pulse bombs) (I'm at the library right now and looking at the issue
mentioned. Volume 178, #9. It's allright for what it is, but a much better explaination can be found in "Information Warfare, vol. 2, by Winn Schwartau (SP?). Also, look at www.infowar.com (http://
www.infowar.com) NBK2000).it say that it can be improvised easily, in the form of Flux Compression Generator.You will see in the diagram on page 50 its simple design.I was thinking that a fast (brisant)
explosive like C-4/semtex could easily be used for explosive component..Somehow the bank of capacitors looks complicated.Guys what can you say about the feasibilty of improvising this weapon.?
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 30, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 30, 2001).]
Mr Cool August 22nd, 2001, 05:14 PM

Easy in theory, hard in practice. It'd be easier just to blow up the electronics. Also, most designs I've seen use a capacitor bank of around 10kJ, pulse rated. If you can find one of them for less than 2000 I'd be
very impressed. And setting of the device will destroy it.
DoH BoY August 22nd, 2001, 05:34 PM

Talk about a waste of perfectly good money
if u wanted to set somthing like this off u would have to be a rich terrorist or somthing.
Machiavelli August 22nd, 2001, 07:17 PM

Can somebody provide a scan of said design? Popular Science is not that easy to get in Germany...
BoB- August 23rd, 2001, 12:10 AM

It was popularmeachanics dude, I'm looking at the article, the diagram is overly simplistic, it gives an accurate description about how the device should work, but gives no detail in its construction. Nice read
about physics though.
More accurate diagrams of an easilly built EMP device is on Jhonbus' page:

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Curb/2003/
cutefix August 23rd, 2001, 02:11 AM

Sorry about that ,these magazine if you only care too look in the int eresting cover you w ill overlook the title.Popular science and popular mechanics looks similar in coverAnyway I searched the web today and this what I found
from this site:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/ebomb.html
A s an example, the fabrication of an effective FCG can be accomplished with basic electrical materials, common plastic explosives such as C-4 or Semtex, and readily available machine tools such as lathes and suitable
mandrels for forming coils. Disregarding the overheads of design, which do not apply in this context, a two stage FCG could be fabricated for a cost as low as $1,000-2,000, at Western labour rates. This cost could
be even lower in a Third World or newly industrialised economy.
While the relative simplicity and thus low cost of such weapons can be considered of benefit to First World nations intending to build viable war stocks or maintain production in wartime, the possibility of less developed nation
mass producing such weapons is alarming. The dependence of modern economies upon their information technology infrastructure makes them highly vulnerable to attack with such weapons, providing that these can be
deliver ed to their targets.
Therefore it is not a remote possibility that it can be improvised easily.It was claimed in that popular magazine that with few hundred dollars, it can be built.The technology is simple.It was claimed to be a
topsecret device;but I believe it to be easier to improvise than a simple fission nuclear device.Knowing how sinister these EMP to communication lines it would be a perfect weapon for terrorist who can fabricate
and use it against their targets.
Mr Cool August 23rd, 2001, 12:09 PM

Yes cutefix, the technology is simple. But the technology behind hydrogen bombs is also simple, it only gets hard when you try to actually make one. You could not make an effective one in your shed, that's for
sure. But yes, it is simpler than a fission device.
Basic electrical materials?! LOL! Maybe basic to research labs etc., but you couldn't pick the parts up at RS or Maplins!
EventHorizon August 23rd, 2001, 09:31 PM

I seem to remember an article about a young, IIRC ~14, boy who had acquired a small amount of uranium 238 I think, and made a small nuclear reactor in his shed. Caused a big stink with the neighbors too.
Apparently he had almost gotten it to work. Its been a long while since I read the story, but basically anyone who has the brains and knows what they want and how to ask for it can do quite a bit.
cutefix August 24th, 2001, 01:33 AM

I agreee with you event horizon,why would western governments are worried about weapons grade plutonium, that may fall into wrong hands -because the technology for making a simple nuclear device is
available.There are also nuclear scientists from east bloc states that may have mercenary tendencies,.The other thing needed is definite purpose by a wealthy patron who have the necessary materials and tools to
build one.I donot believe the impossibility of the idea of building an improvised E-Bomb.The time will come for the end of western arrogance. The west are flaunting their skill in applying information technology to
modern warfare,yet if their adversary disabled their advanced electronic equipment through these devices ,they will become sitting ducks...
EMP hardening is still an imperfect art...

I'm not saying that an E-bomb would be impossible to make, I'm just saying that it'd be expensive, and you'd need to do a lot of testing to get one to work efficiently. The cost of making dozens to test would put it
well out of the reach of people like us.
Hmm... I read that story about the kid with the breeder reactor. He should've sticked to Americium, it's four times as radioactive as Radium. If the story was accurate he'd have been a long way from getting it to
work.
the freshmaker August 25th, 2001, 01:11 PM

This is not a electropulse bomb but is has a litle to do with this topic. A high explosive charge fx. C4 surrounded by a big charge of grafite dust. When the bomb is detonated near fx. eletronic station the HE will
throw the very fine grafitedust everywhere and and create a electriccircut between the eletronics and then short circuit and damage the whole system. This kind of bomb was used by the US against irac under the
bombardements in 1991.
BoB- August 26th, 2001, 04:03 AM

The graphite would probably ignite since its touching the explosive.
cutefix August 26th, 2001, 05:24 AM

I heard this bomb too,but not familiar with its construction.If the HE is used to disperse the graphite,then the amount of it is just enough to scatter and not ignite it.If an HE is brisant enough and there is an absence of
incendiary additive;combustion of graphite will not occur
Yet the effect is selective an limited not mass destabilization of the surrounding electronic devices.Supposing these devices are armored or well protected so that the graphite particles will just slide on the
protective surface.I think and admixture of high density tungsten granules will have some penetrating effect so as to enable the graphite to penetrate the covering....But the projectile construction as well as its
explosive filler will have to be modified.The metal should be cast with the explosive for optimum effect..
Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 11:37 AM

graphite is very ignition-resistent.
nbk2000 August 30th, 2001, 04:33 PM

It was carbon fiber on spools, not graphite dust explosively scattered.
------------------
cutefix August 31st, 2001, 12:37 AM

I found the site www,infow ar ,impressive.Thanks for that link NBK. Im still st arting t o browse on it and I found the BLU-114 carbon filament bombs,I think that weapon works best with power pylons,I also found the Russian
high power microwave bomb which was effectively tested .This weapon is man portable but expensive and sophisticated yet there is already an available market for it...It would need advanced skill in electronics
to fabricate it,therefore not for improvisation..
kingspaz August 31st, 2001, 10:59 AM
not sure if this is of much use but i uploaded some text about EMP weapons. it was originally from www.abovetopsecret.com (http://www.abovetopsecret.com) but its gone under because of lack of funding.
http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/emp.doc
if it doesn't work copy and paste the link into your browser.
cutefix September 1st, 2001, 06:27 AM

Thanks,Kingspaz for this link.in angelfire..that clarify some info that perplexed me.
I think your file is similar to abovetopsecret website where they used a fast explosive containing 95%HMX,but they withheld some information how can a plane wave from an explosive lens occur without the presence of a slo
explosive.I think It uses the same principle as the conventional explosive trigger in fission type weapons.I anticipate that their explosive lens is a combination of this fast PBX(VOD >8800m/s) and a slow explosive like
plumbatol(60/40)TNT/PbNO3 (VOD >.4000m/s)combination.in order to form a suitable planar compressive force that will help activate the system..Fast explosive alone will shatter the device instead before it can achieve its
taskNow that ratio of two explosive combination is to be optimized,for best effect.
Hello,NBK do you mind if I ask, what happened to www.infowar.com (http://www .infowar.com) I had difficulty accessing it recently.it is such an interesting and very informative site..and Im still not halfway browsing its
voluminous infoagain, thanks for that link
Machiavelli September 3rd, 2001, 02:42 PM

Instead of discussing endlessly about how it might work and what you could do and possibly and maybe and probably and instead of consulting pseudo-scientific sources how about consulting the scientific
literature?
Among the most important publications for us probably are the proceedings of the IEEEs conferences on pulsed power. These papers are talking about actual working devices and give you exact specifications.
Additional information should be available from www.ieee.org (http://www.ieee.org) and any university library should be able to get the stuff for you.
The whole research area of pulsed power generation and applications should be very interesting in this respect.
As soon as I get back to university I'll have a look at it, meanwhile, if anyone else can drag his ass to the university we might be able to continue the discussion on a higher level.
nbk2000 March 19th, 2002, 04:20 AM

Here's video clips of an artist (yeah, whatever :rolleyes: ) who made an "I-Bomb" as in "Information Bomb". It uses a spark-gap with a huge coil to generate an EMP field. Check it out.
<a href="http://www.eiu.org/experiments/i-bomb/video.html" target="_blank">http://www.eiu.org/experiments/i-bomb/video.html</a>
Unfortunately, the dickheads didn't include schematics. But, from the pictures, you can see what it's going to take to build even a small EMP device.
J March 19th, 2002, 01:55 PM

Doesn't look too complicated at all. I'll take a guess at the circuit: A bank of HV caps are charged up through the coil, using a high voltage PSU. The PSU output current will determine the charge time.
The spark gap's in parallel with the coil, and it breaks down when the cap bank has a high enough voltage on the plates. For best results, the coil and caps must be matched (using equations found on many tesla
coil websites) to maximise ringing.
This kind of device would have to be huge to be used as a large scale weapon, rather than just a demonstration project. A magnetic flux compression generator would be much more effective for a fraction of the
cost.
nbk2000 March 20th, 2002, 09:00 AM

An FCG is a one use only device, plus need attention drawing explosions to work.
Whereas, an EMP pulser (as shown) can be used infinitely, and quietly. Imagine it in the back of a van, driving along in a commercial/financial district. Silent e-death.
And fancy e-bombs and EMP are the only anti-tech weapons available. Airfloat graphite or carbon particles could be blown into an area, causing shorting and arcing of delicate electronic circuits when it makes a
conductive path across the circuit boards.
And it's only a couple of dollars per pound in bulk.
J March 20th, 2002, 03:12 PM

True, a vehicle mounted device would be effective. But 'They' would probably work out what had happened by studying CCTV images of the blacked out van driving down the street slowly, pausing, then moving a bit
further as all the lights went out in adjacent buildings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
It would be extremely useful to have a directional device. This would have been great in my first year of uni for early morning 'music' lovers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I intend to go into the field (no pun intended) of electromagnetics and RF eventually. This is the kind of thing I'll be playing around with when I have more money and spare time.

wouldn't the EMP screw with the vans ignition and other circuitry?

Shouldn't do if it's a diesel engine with no engine management junk:)
nbk2000 March 21st, 2002, 12:58 AM

The good thing about an I-bomb is that it's adjustable too. You don't have to have it set high enough to vaporize circuitry. You can set it low enough to just cause glitching and errors. A "soft-kill" instead of a "hard-
kill". This can be repeate as often as neccessary to drive the target crazy trying to figure out the cause of the problem.
I can also see using an I-bomb to nuetralize alarm or security systems. :) Or cause constant false alarms that eventually wears out the polices patience so they no longer respond.
Many cities have alarm ordinances that say, if you get more than 3 false alarms in a given time, the police won't respond any more. :D
I don't think EMP can be directed, being a magnetic field, but RF energy can be. The second edition of "Information Warfare" by Winn Schwartau (I have a copy) details all kinds of e-weapons. Good reading, highly
recommended.
Zambosan March 21st, 2002, 03:46 PM

An EMP device is going to produce electromagnetic radiation over a wide spectrum, since it is "fired" by what is essentially an impulse of energy (look at at the Fourier series for an impulse). Since it is
electromagnetic radiation, it can be focused by a waveguide like any other, e.g. microwaves. However, since the energy is not concentrated at any particular frequency band, it isn't possible to optimize a
waveguide to make the total emission directed... you'll just focus some of it, while absorbing other components. However, it's the wide range of emissions that make it so devastating... inducing destructive (or
at least problematic) voltages & currents in all sorts of conductors.
J March 21st, 2002, 04:26 PM

How deeply does Schwartau's book go into detail on the technical side? It's a book I've seen mentioned many times whilst searching for info on Tempest (I've decided this will be my next long term project when
I'm in work and have space to set up a small lab).
Your right Zambosan, that's why it's so effective. But if your target was a specific device that you had technical knowledge of, it should be possible to construct a waveguide tuned to a certain frequency. If your
target was a computer, the CPU clock frequency range of the particular motherboard would be a good one.
As computers are becoming faster, it's important to ensure the tracks on the motherboard are a certain size to allow correct transmission of data without reflections. Setting up a massive standing wave along
one of these tracks wouldn't do the system much good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
nbk2000 March 22nd, 2002, 01:45 AM

It doesn't provide schematics, but it does give a lot of the operating principles and the applications for various e-war scenarios. Plus there's a good bibliography of technical articles to look up.
Check out the website at <a href="http://www.infowar.com" target="_blank">www.infowar.com</a> for more info.

Not to change the subject, but if anyone saw the movie Oceans 11 (the new version) they stole some kind of thing that wiped out the electricity in part of Las Vegas for about 30 seconds, after which all the power
was restored. Do they really have things like this? I'm assuming if they are real it would be a lot harder to make than the other types of E-Bombs here.
kingspaz March 22nd, 2002, 07:30 PM

i haven't seen it. but stuff in films is bullshit. EMP weapons can either dirupt power causing malfunctions of equipment or permanently destroy circuits.
everything pyro in films is bullshit, pure bullshit.
Anthony March 22nd, 2002, 07:36 PM

Would probably be easier just to blow up an electricity sub-station if you want a black out and/or use the conductive fibre/dust idea suggested by NBK.
Powercuts don't make alarms switch off or bank vaults unlock though, important systems will be equipped with a UPS system.

Yea Kingspaz, I know that pyro shit in films is bulshit (same with most other controversial things depicted in films), but it is usualy based on something that is real, which is what I was wondering.
If you were going to try to take out power of a small area I would not try to take out the power sub-station because of the increased risk of getting caught/raising suspicion and because of the increasing popularity
of people using their own solar/water power.
If you had some type of E-bomb device that could take out the power in a small area temporarly you could set it to go off remotly and be doing the job while the device goes off somewhere else nearby, and posibly
the police would not have any idea what is going on untill much later. I see that you are talking about taking down the power in a larger area, Anthony, and if you were doing a job that you needed the power in a
large area to go off I agree that it would be much more practical to take out the power sub-station.
Could you use a small E-bomb close to the power sub-station take that out temporarely? This seems like the most effective way of doing things, and I think would be a lot more practical than actually destroying a
sub-startion. If this is posible you could even probably do this to key power plants during the peak usage hours to eliminate power to the whole city. So is this possible?
PYRO500 March 23rd, 2002, 12:29 AM

If you think about it all that EMP "I-bomb" is just a simple spark gap transmitter, the capacitors discharge through the air across a gap, the completed circuit goes through the inductor, the spark gap emits a RF
pulse that is easily calculated by the length of the pulse the voltage, the gap where the spark arcs, and the inductance of the coil. Now just to warn all of you this is definitely illegal to run, spark gap transmitters
were banned a very long time ago (I wonder why :cool: ) it should not be too hard to directionalize the cm field with a simple reflector, if I get around to it I may make some schematics of a possible transmitter
and possibly a digital model.
Anthony March 23rd, 2002, 02:36 PM

I don't get how that I-Bomb at <a href="http://www.eiu.org/experiments/i-bomb/video.html" target="_blank">http://www.eiu.org/experiments/i-bomb/video.html</a> is a weapon in it's current form (unless
you meant that it could be adapted into being a weapon?). It's affect on electrical equipment is obviously minimal because there's a video camera a couple of feet from the spark gap that is completely unaffected.
xoo1246 March 23rd, 2002, 03:15 PM

Patent: 5,059,839 and 3,564,305 might be of some interest to you.
I wouldn't use a FCG to kill an alarm. That would be un-economical.
kingspaz March 23rd, 2002, 05:59 PM

i just had an interesting thought. what are the pigs without their communications centre and walkie talkies? fucking useless. thats how they end up catching you in a chase. they can coordinate efforts to get you.
so an EMP device planted outside a pig station would render the local forces almost useless = no piggies :p
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2002, 07:02 PM

The I-bomb is variable powered, so I'm sure they set it to the lowest setting. Plus, the EMP field comes from the coil, not the power supply, so there's distance too.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wouldn't use a FCG to kill an alarm. That would be un-
economical.<hr /></blockquote>I'd say that depends on what the alarm is guarding. For the local stop-and-rob liquor store, no. But a plutonium storage
facility or precious metals depository...YES! :D
Kingspaz, you're right about the piggies and their radios. Without them, they're back to being equal to cops of the Roaring '20s, only with nicer guns. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Though you wouldn't need a complicated EMP device, just a simple tear gas bomb in their communication center.
xoo1246 March 23rd, 2002, 09:22 PM

Imagine setting a bunch of FCGs off in the financial center om some major city, you enclose the FCGs in something blast reducing(whatever), thus no personal damage but only technological damage to large
cooperations and institutes. Would it create some confusion? How do they store their data? I don't think they are EMP hardened, are they? The data are probably stored at several locations though. Still, it would
make my day. No motive but poetic terrorism. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
TheBicher March 24th, 2002, 12:02 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wouldn't use a FCG to kill an alarm. That would be un-economical.
<hr /></blockquote>Of course I am only speaking theoreticly, of what you COULD do if the need arises. I only brought up the subject of Alarm Systems
because it was mentioned in a similar post by someone else.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If you think about it all that EMP "I-bomb" is just a simple spark gap
transmitter, the capacitors discharge through the air across a gap, the completed circuit goes through the inductor, the spark gap emits a RF pulse that is easily calculated by the length of the pulse the voltage,
the gap where the spark arcs, and the inductance of the coil. <hr /></blockquote>I was thinking about how easily it would be to trace an E-bomb, but it
would probably still take the police a while to get the equipment ready (if they even have any), and that is after they realize what's going on (not sure how long that would take). If I were to use an E-bomb I would
set it to go off remotly or by a timer. Unfortunately, if the cops did find your E-bomb you would have to abandon it, which could mean a lot of work lost and make it suitable only for big jobs.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Imagine setting a bunch of FCGs off in the financial center om some
major city, you enclose the FCGs in something blast reducing(whatever), thus no personal damage but only technological damage to large cooperations and institutes. Would it create some confusion? How do they
store their data? I don't think they are EMP hardened, are they? The data are probably stored at several locations though. Still, it would make my day. No motive but poetic terrorism. <hr /></
blockquote>I hope you're joking...
Am I the only one starting to realize that most of the things on <a href="http://www.eiu.org/experiments/" target="_blank">http://www.eiu.org/experiments/</a> are either fake or a joke? I mean really, a
lethal biological pathogen vending maching? It is posible that the I-bomb is real, but it really wouldn't be that hard to fake (and a lot easier than making the real thing.)
nbk2000 March 24th, 2002, 12:53 AM

Of course the "Dispersion Customized Pathogen Dispenser" is real. :rolleyes:
These are works of "performance" art. That means that they work (within sane limits). Thus I'm not worried about the I-bomb working.
But I did like the biological agent vending machine. Makes me think you could set one up as "art", give it a couple of weeks with harmless sugar or whatnot, then switch anthrax for the sugar for the last few days
before disappearing with the machine.
By then lots of idiots would have opened up their vials to look at the "harmless" powder inside. <img src="http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif" alt="" />
PYRO500 March 24th, 2002, 01:08 AM

for a FCG to work properly you need an extreme amount of current at high voltage for this you'll need at least a 50-130 pount capacitor as the priming voltage, then you'll need a very fast way of detonating your
explosive lenghtwise, prefrerably an exploding foil detonator.the EMP weapon on their site is not only possible it WILL work, spark gaps from big cap discharges are very powerful and with the right inductor can put
out EM all over the spectrum that will destroy electronics but are usually far from silent, the EM radiation is best directed though to increase power density in one direction. I am currently working on a 3d model of
a spark gap emp and i'll post it when it is done.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > improvised air rifle munitions
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anyone here made anything of the sort ???
better piercing values, poisoned, shattering, exploding... share your stories with me please
vulture April 2nd, 2002, 03:38 AM

My grandfather gave me some 4.5mm (.175 i believe) pellets which had a needle stuck through it.
100% kill rate on pigeons and small animals at distance to 30m with 170m/s airrifle.
Accuracy is somewhat compromised because fixing the needle perfectly straight and in the middle is difficult.
I was thinking about adding some KMnO4/Al/S flash in the opening in the back of the pellets to increase muzzle velocity. Any
ideas?

duno thats why im asking... im thinkin bout gettin a webley... either way im spending a couple hundred on the sucker
what im really after is ideas on pellets that perform better penetration wise.... ideas on exploding pellets is fine however id
rather not go near making any sort of illegal munition. plus it would end up damage the rifle
I was thinking along the lines of replacing the tips of the pellets with some kind of hardened steel (?). I say this because the
tips of the pellets do not make contact with the barrel at all, so if i didnt want to risk damaging an expensive rifle i would go
along those lines...
| \,,;'.
|.......|> (tip)
|_/``;.'
Sorry for the BullShi diagram... the rear section of the pellet on cathes the air which is released upon firing. The area behind
the tip on the brand pellets i use dont actually have the same diameter as the rear part so it doesnt make contact with the
barrel. I was thinking of just replacing this front area with a harder kind of metal. has anyone tried anything like this before ?
Would it give any better kind of penetration
[ April 02, 2002, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: Azazel ]

ohhhh by the way im concerned with penetration because the more the penetration the bigger the target i can take down. at
the moment all the rifle will drop is a small rabbit but if i wanted to take down something slightly larger i most likely will just
cause the poor creature a fatal injury. i dont like letting things suffer. but i dont want to go shooting them with powder rifles
mainly because the air rifle is .22 cal anyway.

I used to have these grey and rather weak and heavy lead pellets, but now i have light and shiny (like aluminium) ones which
are harder. The brand is Diana.
About your point, it looks like a good idea to me, it's the same principle as the needle in mine.
If you're going to buy one, buy a 320 m/s rifle, if possible with a scope. Walther has a 2-9x42 illuminated reticle for a very
cheap price. I say this because with my 170m/s bullet drop is already substantial over distances more than 20m.

ok cool thanks for the advice my friend...
i have seen one which takes my fancy... Cometa Fenix 400

it has 320 m/s velocity after firing YAY
its in my price range too... i think the webley rifles are rather costly. i would prefer to buy a .308 for the cost of the webley
Mr Cool April 2nd, 2002, 04:59 AM

You can get lead-free air rifle pellets that are an alloy of bismuth I think, surrounded by a hard rubber jacket that engages
with the rifling. These deform much less on impact, because they are much harder than lead. So you should get better
penetration.
Whatever you do, don't do any modifications to pellets yourself; you'll probably end up ruining the rifling.
BoB- April 2nd, 2002, 05:42 AM

ohh, you poor brits and underagers....
Vulture, no cartridges in the world use flash for a reason, its extremly unpredictable and might generate enough heat to melt
something important.
As kids our favorite way to cause destruction was to over pressurize, and overload our guns, 6-7 BBs or pellets pumped 25
times would kill anything up to the size of a fox. But 'one shot and run away' kinda died out with the civil war.
As for poisons ricin always comes to mind, if you can get even a single grain of the poison in a hollowpoint air-rifle pellet, then
that is plenty enough to kill your prey. Of course ricin is slow acting and equally as dangerous to its maker. Something else is
needed to make air-rifles into weapons...
fullauto.
I beileve that 10-20 BBs in someones face would be equal in destructive force to any commerically made cartridge, a single
squeeze and the man is on the ground in agony, a few more bursts into a temple, jugular, or eyeball and its all over.
You could even aim for his crotch :)

I know no cartridge comes with flash, i just needed a composition that will ignite reliabely in the rifle.
Jack Ruby April 2nd, 2002, 06:46 AM

what displeases me about semi-automatic Pellet guns is:
They have a low capacity for Ammo(8-10 rounds is the most I have seen)
12g CO2 canisters only have so much in them(12g is my guess)
Your first few shots will be alright but then I can start to trace the pellets path with my Eye(slows down).
CO2 Will only be so powerful. Where as you can over Preasurize the Pump style(the one I have is a cross man).
Plus I find Semi-Auto in Pellet guns to be not accurate(Action doesn't cycle smooth enough for my liking).
The above may sound very lame to the rest of you but are enough reason for me.
Also A nice pellet pistol for me is about 1/2 he cost of a .22LR(Rifle Or Pistol). I might aswell spend a little more and get
something that will have something behind it.
Anthony April 2nd, 2002, 07:51 AM

Putting any kind of homemade projectile into anything put a cheap air rifle is a waste. You'll more than likely damage the rifle.
Steel contacting the rifling will scratch and damage it - the rifling in an air rifle is much finer and more delicate than in a
firearm barrel. Also, a projectile that is too light or ill fitting will cause piston slam if the gun is a springer, likewise an overly
tight or heavy projectile will cause piston bounce, both are bad. Homemade pellets will also be widly inaccurate and
unpredictable.
If you want a kind of sabot round, try Prometheus pellets, they're like MrCool described - an alloy dart in a nylon sabot.
More penetration doesn't mean you have more killing power. You'll likely have *less* stopping power due to over-penetration
and also a much smaller wound channel - bad if you trying to kill by rapid blood pressure drop i.e throat/neck shot.
CO2 airguns are generally underpowered because the tiny CO2 reservior (it is actually only 12gm), chills rapidly when gas is
discharged from it, lowering it's internal pressure.
I believe that some tests were done by one of the American airgun manufacturers (might have been crossman) whereby a
quantity of nitrocellulose was placed into the tail of a pellet and fired from a spring/piston gun, the heat upon firing ignited the
NC. I believe they had good results upto 2000-3000fps, although I doubt the pellet touched the rifling at those kind of
speeds.
If you really want more power than you might as well throw a 22LR into the breach...
RTC April 2nd, 2002, 12:47 PM

Anthony, how hard is it to get two .22/.177 springs into a springer? I don't want the off chance of it flying out and giving me a
eyeball poke.
And is there much increase is velocity? I'm thinking about adding a new spring to a Hatson Mod 40.

What does 12gm mean?
Ctrl_C April 2nd, 2002, 02:40 PM

12 grams of CO2 in a cartridge.
They make pointed metal darts that fit in pellet guns. I will pick some up today, snap some pics, and if anyone wants them I'll
mail them tomorrow.
Arkangel April 2nd, 2002, 03:56 PM

I hate to pass on anecdotal heresay information, but a friend used to put a drop of diesel behind the pellet. He reckoned it
worked like a diesel engine - compression ignition. I would like to point out that neither he nor I had any means of
quantitatvely testing this (although it DID produce blue smoke from the barrel) and take no responsibility for your bitter
disappointment when fuck all exciting happens when you try it.
Self modified pellets with pins in would be soooooo inaccurate unless you were a rock steady engineer. Prometheus discarding
sabot pellets rock, but are slow to reload.
In the words of Swiss Tony:
"Getting the best from your air rifle is very much like making love to a beautiful woman:
First you've gotta have everything well oiled.
Then, when it's nice and slippery, you pump up your weapon.
Carefully, open the breech, and check there's nothing in the way.
Slide in your projectile and carefully take aim from behind.
Reach round for her trigger and gently squeeze, until.........POP
You shoot your load all over her tits."
I don't think the last bit really fitted that well, but I suddenly lost me weaponry motivation and panicked into writing it.
Anthony April 2nd, 2002, 05:36 PM

RTC, I'd say near impossible - presuming you could compress them into the action and fit the end cap, they would almost
certainly be already coil-bound, so you wouldn't be able to cock the gun. Generally throwing a bigger spring tends to raise
power a bit (few ft/lb) but accuracy goes to pot, the gun jumps all over the place when fired and it is eventually destroyed by
the extra shock it takes during a firing cycle.
Those darts might be the same as the ones you see used with Gat guns, they're generally not recomended for rifled barrels
because the part which contacts the barrel is steel.
Diesel does indeed work. I've used a drop of gun oil before through the transfer port and it gives a few ft/lb boost for about 3-
4 shots. The more volatile the fuel, the greater the effect - petrol or nitromethane should be funny...
Nice work Arkangel:) Would they be blue/greater/lesser spotted tits?
Arkangel April 2nd, 2002, 07:19 PM

As long as I have some tits to aim at, I'm not at all fussed what variety they are, so long as they are not attached to some
lard arsed builder!
Steel darts are bad if they're the ones Anthony describes, as they're hard on rifling, AND have this ridiculous coloured fluffy tail
that really slows them down. Only useful for a dartboard.
Someone in the thread mentioned sticking a .22 LR down the spout, and that leads onto the question about converting a
brocock. Anyone spent time looking at one yet? I think it would be a dumbass thing to do, as it's prison time, however, their
.38 BACS air system looks really interesting in general - you can have a 6 round revolver with speedloader, or check out the
fox - totally day of the jackal rifle! <a href="http://www.profhk.com/product/brocock/fox.htm" target="_blank">http://
www.profhk.com/product/brocock/fox.htm</a>
Madog555 April 2nd, 2002, 08:04 PM

they make ones called "bolts" (like in a cross bow) and they are the same as the darts ony they have a plastic back with little
fins. im sure they have a mutch better velocity.
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 08:38 PM

An aquaintance of mine had a crossman CO2 BB pistol that he had modified by stretching the internal spring to twice it's
original lentgh and reinstalling. It could shoot a .177 pellet fast enough to knock over a standard red brick at 40+ feet. A BB
would puncture a steel wheelbarrow at 20 feet.
'course, you only got about 8-10 shots per CO2 powerlet before you had to replace it, compared to the usual 60+.
I don't know the exact model number, but it was an all black plastic, with a slide that you pulled straight back for every shot.
There was no magazine, and it was a long barrel style, like a target pistol.
It can't shot pellets as is. We had to remove the barrel to manually load each pellet and reinstall the barrel in the pistol to do
so.
This thing killed pigeons with one shot out of tall trees, and easily busted thick spotlight bulbs on roofs. What could you do
with that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Though it was LOUD compared to a regular air pistol. More comparable to a .22.
Pu239 Stuchtiger April 2nd, 2002, 09:00 PM

I've been wondering about this for a while: just how harmful to the air rifle is overpumping it? It seems that a lot of people do
that without trouble, yet the air rifle company strongly advises against overpumping it... Any idea just how much of an increase
in velocity can be attained? My gun is supposed to be pumped a maximum of 10 times, and has a velocity of about 800ft/sec.
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 10:47 PM

The maximum you're going to get is the speed of sound (1,100 FPS or less). But, what if you used a lighter gas than air? Like
helium? The light gas guns like the military experiment with use helium and hydrogen to accelerate the slugs to 10,000+ M/S.
Perhaps it's the very low density and increased mach speed of light gases.
I think the air-gun manufacturers recommend against overpumping because of the wear and tear on the seals and valves.
Plus possible injury if the gun ruptures.

Yes. Arkangel, I think the Brocock system is great. Damned expensive though.They used to sell a canegun that used the bac
38 system. Do you know if they still do, and if so where I could view it? I recently read a book about airguns wherein the
author said that he had designed an injector to feed light oil into the compression chamber of a springer, to boost the velocity,
by diesel action. It shouldn't be to hard to build something like that. My personal project for an airgun is to design and build a
44 cal. walkingstick airgun circa turn of the century . These things were supposed to be able to take down deer.
Arkangel April 3rd, 2002, 05:33 AM

The Fox I mentioned above is a skeleton gun, not sure if you checked out the link, but it's super thin. Am going to have to
take a look at one.
Anthony April 3rd, 2002, 08:51 AM

You can definitely go over Mach1, indeed a lot of tweakers have troube keeping it under. Generally though you don't get
supersonic airguns as if the pellet drops below mach1 downrange, the shockwave from going supersonic smacks it in the arse
and accuracy goes to pot.
Some people do charge their Precharged pneumatic guns with Helium, IIRC it doubles power output.
A couple of hundred years ago, airguns were a more prestigious and feared weapon than powder arms. Some of the
colonialists that went to America took .44 air rifles, with power compareable to that of a modern .45ACP cartridge, they used
them to take buffalo. Apparently they scared they put the heebijeebies up the Indians - firesticks with no fire:)

Yes. Arkangel, that fox rifle looks like it would be very easy to modify into what I want. However the one I saw, was actually
disguised as a cane. Has anyone seen a good simple inline valve design for a walking stick airgun? THANKS.
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 12:49 PM

If you're making a single shot, why not try using a frangible valve?
A small disc of tempered glass is the "valve", and a ceramic striker (or spring loaded center punch) is the "trigger". When the
striker hits the glass, it instantly shatters, releasing the pressure. Easily replaced, and can hold thousands of PSI of pressure
in small sizes.

Great idea,
The Brocock system uses a .38 cartridge, which acts as a mini reservoir of air, and holds the .22 pellet. The crims here are
converting them to take a .22 LR shell, probably by replacing the BACS cartridge with a machined sleeve (external dimensions
the same as a .38 shell) into which they pop the .22 round. I'm not sure how the firing mechanism works, as .22LR is rimfire,
but if you could overpressure the BACS system using a glass seal as you describe, it would power the gun up, without it leaving
firing residue on the gun. The only thing is you'd probably get a lot of glass up the barrel, which might cause problems for the
next round.
RTC April 3rd, 2002, 01:40 PM

Nothing a ramrod couldn't take care of.
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 02:27 PM

I doubt there'd be any glass left in the barrel since it's own momentum would likely carry it out.
You could always add a tuff of cotton into the cartridge that should "swab" out the barrel when fired.
I was looking at the BAC site, and it looks like an interesting piece of equipment. The .22 especially. I could see pulling the
bullets from real .22 rimfire ammo, and loading the bullets into the BAC cartridges. Then the piggies are looking for a rimfire
gun, not an airgun.
The Fox rifle has a moderator (AKA silencer). How effective are the silencers for british air-rifles? Because we can't own
silencers of any sort in the US without an ATF permit.
If they make it so quiet that you can't hear it past a few yards, than that'd be perfect for taking out lights. US SWAT teams are
buying more and more silenced weapons for that very purpose.
It also looks like it'd be good training equipment for crims. You can practice your disarming, concealment, CQB, and other
pistolcraft tactics without having to use up valuable and rare illegal handgun ammo in practice.
I wonder, does the 9mm version eject the cartridges automatically? Or is it manually cocked after every shot?
How much pressure can the BAC cartridges hold? I've seen air-powered military simulator rounds similar to this that hold
several thousand PSI and can fire lethal rounds.
If the BAC can hold that kind of pressure, than you'd need something like a SCUBA tank compressor to get that level of air
pressure.
But then you'd have a lethal .22 pistol that uses residue free air and common .22 pellets.

Or how about something like the old fashioned soda bottles, where you had a marble held in place in the neck by the
pressure? You could use the principle with a small bb in the neck of your pressure vessel, and pushing against it vented the
gas
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 03:07 PM

Ah, but the more pressure, and the smaller the surface it's applied against, the more force it takes to overcome it.
It could be nearly impossible to move the BB if you have it under a lot of pressure, which is the whole point.
The glass will shatter with equal ease, whether it's sitting in your hand, or holding thousands of PSI of pressure.
The frangible valve idea came from a military light gas gun design I saw somewhere. Though they use metal plates and det-
cord.

The greater the pressure, the GREATER the area it's applied against, surely? That's why I said a small bb, although I do take
your point. I had in mind some kind of lever/cam in the trigger mechanism, something like the 1st/2nd pressure of a normal
rifle trigger, but with the 1st pressure doing most of the work, and the 2nd cracking the valve with a relatively light squeeze. I
agree though, that a frangible disc is a better idea. I still think there would be a debris problem, especially in a .177 or .22
barrel of any length.
Got any linkd to that gas weapon you described?
johnn 99 April 3rd, 2002, 05:45 PM

Thank you all very much for the ideas. Yes arkangel the marble/soda bottle valve is what I am looking at now, however it
requires the gas to make a 90 deg. turn in my design, which I am trying to avoid. Also I have some doubts about a decent
valve material for use at these pressures (500 psi).
NBK I can think of several ways to apply your frangible disk idea. However I would prefer this project to be multi shot. Thanks
for the info!
Anthony April 3rd, 2002, 06:39 PM

Real crims in the UK just buy an illegally imported firearm handgun for a fraction of the price of a Brocock + conversion,
reliability and safety costs.
BACs work at around 200-230 bar IIRC, you can use a driver's bottle, a stirrup pump or a hand pump to pressurise them. The
pumps are made for the purpose and special high-pressure jobbies, not your average bike pump.
I like the frangible glass valve idea. Does the striker hit in the glass from behind? If so this would require the striker
mechanism to be on the high pressure side, so how do you seal it seeing as you need something running to outside of the
pressure chamber for a trigger. I guess you could use a solenoid to hit the glass meaning you'd only need to run a wire or two
to the outside world. But at several thousand PSI sealing even a wire sound difficult.

The BACS cartridge is made of a couple of parts, and you could probably do the same thing with the frangible seal - a
pressure chamber at the rear, with the bullet (if it is one "cartridge" assembly) at the fron end. The hammer would push the
pressure chamber forward, fracturing the disc on an internal "anvil" arrangement.
Don't know if that makes any sense?
Azazel April 3rd, 2002, 07:01 PM

Hmmm these Sabot rounds sound like my kinda thing...thanx for the info guys
if you go ahead and buy darts for your air rifle make sure u get high quality brand that doesnt leave traces of material in the
barrel after a number of shots. my friend and i found colored hairs in the barrel after shooting. later we were both told that the
particular brand was cheap... cant remember which though was long time ago.
Webley make these really cool air rifles. They have this one semi auto called the Webley Axsor... you can pump it 80 times i
think and it has an 8 shot mag. Very expensive air rifle though wouldnt wana mess with its springs.
Sparky April 3rd, 2002, 07:08 PM

I like NBK's idea of having a glass piece that would shatter. But instead of hitting it with a hammer maybe you could set off a
small charge of BP in the air chamber. It would overpressurized the chamber and shattered the glass, as long as that was the
weakest part. This way you could dispense with the hammer mechanism and use a sparking thing.
I read somewhere that shooters sometimes put a grain of BP into the chamber, behind the pellet. This might put some
residue on your barrel or damage a weak barrel. Flash probably wouldn't be a good idea unless you had a hefty barrel for the
same reason it isn't used for a propellant in lift or guns. It burns too fast which would damage or blow up the barrel instead of
providing an even pressure for acceleration.
BP would probably be better than diesel since you could use it for both CO2 and pump guns. If your using a CO2 gun then the
diesel, nitromethane or whatever wouldn't be able to burn (no availabel oxygen right?) thought it would burn fine in an air
powered gun.
Anthony April 3rd, 2002, 08:31 PM

Low explosives like BP/NC etc or flammable liquids diesel/NM etc won't work in CO2, precharged or pump-up (multi stroke
pneumatic) since there's no heat during the firing cycles to ignite them. In fact the rapidly expanding gas cools the gun. The
air in the chamber of a spring/piston gun becomes rapidly heated because it is rapidly compressed by the spring.
Might be interesting to cast some BP/dextrin or NC into the tails of pellets and fire them from a cheap springer.
The Axsor (or "'acksaw") is a precharged pneumatic, you fill the chamber on the gun with compressed air with either a diver's
bottle or and external and then you've got enough air in the gun for a days shooting, without having to pump up or cock a
spring/gas ram between shots or change CO2 capsules every 10 shots (realistic if you want useable power). You must be
kidding about the "Very expensive air rifle" though, as precharged goes, that's a really cheapy! In fact it's cheap as far as a
nice springer goes too... Ask MrCool how much his SLR (springer) was:)
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 08:43 PM

Using BP would defeat the whole purpose of using air in the first place, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:
Though maybe a very small explosive charge (like AP) could be used to drive a ceramic fragment against the tempered glass
disc to shatter it, rather than having a mechanical hammer.
The frangible disc would be shattered by an external striker since internal raises too many problems of effective sealing.
I don't have any URLs for the gas gun, but a Google search should reveal it.

Personally, I would turn the whole concept with the glass disk around. When I first saw the brocock cartridge system I thought
"gee I can build those" I would build them in 2 pieces out of brass. The idea being just a subminiature exaust valve
phenumatc rifle (digaphram type) with the glass disk in place of the primer in the cartridge. ( I originally thought to use the bb
idea ) so that when it is broken it lowers the pressure on the back side of the digaphram. I will attempt to build one of these
out of tubing this week, and let you know how it goes.
FragmentedSanity April 4th, 2002, 04:31 AM

Has anyine got any pic/plans/patents or anything for the old air guns - I love the idea of an air gun that can take out a
buffalo. Those things sound insane!
But keep all the ideas flowing - I think there should be more interest in air powered guns - they cant ban air - you dont need a
licence for it and you dont have to be 18 to buy it :p
FS
BoB- April 4th, 2002, 11:06 PM

Ever since I realized that using 12gr Co2 cartridges in my spudgun would cost around $10,000 dollars a year I knew I had to
find a better way.
I've been conducting experiments that I'm going to post about if I ever have a sucessful one.
My first Idea is really simple, bakingsoda and Vinegar, cheap, easy to get in large quantities, and both are non-toxic. A setup
would be simple, a presure chamber would be set up with a large valve at its top, a tube, coming out of the side of the
pressure chamber, will go through the side of another pressure chamber. This Chamber will be filled with water, and the tube
from the pressure chamber will rest at its bottom, and the Co2 will bubble through the water, cleaning it, where it will then be
collected at the top of the chamber.
In use, the pressure generator would be connected to a thoroughly cleaned propane tank (the threads on the tank itself are 3/
4" mnpt) after sufficient pressure has been generated, first a valve leading to the propane tank will be shut off, then the valve
on top of the pressure chamber will be slowly 'cracked' open, and then a main shut off valve will turn off the air going to the
water-filled pressure chamber, and the top valve will be (slowly) fully opened so the chamber can be cleaned and used again.
Also another large valve could be connected to the bottom of the pressure chamber, it could then be opened and a cup of
water could flush out all reactant.
A bonus about this is that it could also be used to generate O2, by the common reaction of H2O2 and Mno2.
The other idea isnt mine, its actually the way Co2 was originally discovered.
in the 1700s Joseph Black discovered that by heating Limestone (CaCO3) Co2 was generated, he then discovered that by
taking the residue left over (quicklime CaO), and dissolving it in water to make limewater, and then bubbling CO2 through it,
the original amount of CaCO3 he started with would be his end result!
What I'm not sure of is, after the CO2 reacts with the limewater, is there still any CO2 left? What other gas's (if any) are
generated by the reaction? If the answers are yes and none, a *ahem* "perpetual Co2 generator" could be created.
Frangible glass valves could actually be in a cartrige itself, exact amounts of reactants could be sealed in the pressure
chamber, hell you could even add water to baking soda then compress it in a star press to make little prefectly measured
cylinders of the reactant, these would also take longer to dissolve and therefore slower to react, giving you plenty of time to
screw the thing together and seal it.
Unfortunatly all those steel pressure vessels would get expensive.
If you have access to steel nipples and endcaps, it wouldnt be too hard to design and build a nelson valve, if I'm still up after
I get back from a party tonight, I'll upload pics of a makeshift nelson valve, and post them here.
I love pnuematics :)
nbk2000 April 4th, 2002, 11:59 PM
You'd want to avoid any trace of water when working with CO2 because it dissolves 400 volumes of CO2 for every 1 of water.
So you'd waste a LOT of CO2 saturating the water.
A fire extinguisher shell will hold at least 200 PSI. And they're free for the stealing.
I think you could make the little pressure shells, using a glass disk in place of the primer. Just whack it with your "firing" pin,
and divert the exhausted air to propel the bullet. I don't see any reason why you can't have a screen or such to retain the
glass fragments in the shell.
Wonder if you could build a shell that has two reactive chemicals seperated by the glass disk that, when broken, would create
an explosion to propell the bullet. I'd think H2SO4 + water = steam.

I take it that loading up with dr?y ice is a really bad idea.
Arkangel April 5th, 2002, 04:31 AM

Having the glass disk in the place of a primer makes it easier to "fire", but makes it much harder to divert the gas, plus you'd
have the projectile loaded seperately somewhere else. If you're going to do that, you might as well pre load the projectile,
then have the glass disk at the front of the pressure cartridge, and then the hammer bangs the whole thing forward onto an
anvil (external to the cartridge) and off it goes.
They can't ban air, true (although there were recent calls for it in the uk) , but they can regulate power. If you're going to
power something up (and I too would love to see design for a buffalo killer), it would be a VERY good idea to be able to have
it set at two power levels, one legal, the other lethal. And make sure it isn't obvious how you change it! :cool:

Lo again :)
I think you missed my point Arkangel. They cant ban Air. and if they tried I think wed all have more things to worry bout -
unless your planning to evolve gills.
As for legalities - who really gives a fuck! the therad was about improvise munitions for air rifles - now Im not sure about your
local laws but shooting any kind of explosive or poison tipped dart out of an air rifle would contrivine a few of them.
In Australia - you need a licence for any firearm - that includes air rifles - we can even have airsoft - and from all the checking
ive done you need a licence for a paintball gun too. if you wanted a pistol - even a cheap nasty singleshot airpistol you need
to join a pistol club - wait for a year - get a pistol licence, then a permit to purchase and then you can buy one, oh I forgot to
mention the inspection the piggies have to do on your residence and safe.
If you are going to make any kind of firearm, its a fairly safe bet that its illegal, regardless of how powerful it is. So why not
make it really powerful!
and if you can buy low powered air guns, why wouldnt you just buy one of those and work on making it shoot harder, if thats
really what your after. Be damned if Id go to the trouble I have if I could buy it off the shelf.
Anyway - the point I was making is that air is a cheap easy medium for projectile launching and the people who will see the
most benifit from it are those who cant buy factory ammo or reloading supplies. Some survivalist (who can see beyond the
need for lots of flash'n'fancy AKmp5MIAr97magnum style guns (with all the extras of course)also see great potential in air
weapons. Not only is the propellant naturally abundent - you can shoot almost any projectile you want to if you vary the design
enough.
Personally Im working (slowly)on a pumpup pneumatic designed to fire 1.5v (AA) batteries (cast lead will also be used). The
(theoretical) benifit of this is that a bore that isze allows for a range of projectiles, including shot. Id like to see a coroner
scratching his head, wondering how john doe got an everready lodged in his chest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
anyway - I do have a little idea for an improvised round for an air rifle, based mainly upon NBK's fetish with horse shit <img
Now as a kid I discovered that stock feed pellets fit nicely in the barrel of my little air gun - Id sit there with a handful of
pellets and shoot for a couple of hours at targets or those horrid parrots that stole all my fruit, cleaning the barrel only
involved shooting a couple of lead pellets through it after I was done. Now the point is that these little pellets held together
faily well, werent too inaccurate and still flew hard enough to dent a soft drink can.
So why not make a pellet out of horse shit, iron filings and possibly a binder (dextrin? not sure what would work best here) in
a mould and a press (Id make a mould with a point for penetration) The theory is that some of it gets under the skin - at
best not enough to warrant a visit to the doc, and make the target thing it was in insect. but even if the pellet penetrated, it
would fragment all the way through the wound - leving little bits of shit and shit encrusted iron filings everywhere - Do you
think a surgeon would get it all? And id assume ballistics would have a hard time tracing a round like that.
later
FS
johnn 99 April 6th, 2002, 02:22 PM

I'm sorry, Arkangel. I don't think I explained what I'm doing very well. I was talking about building a bac 38 cartridge, The
projectile is contained in the front of the round, And the glass disk at the rear is not to vent the compressed gas. just to lower
the pressure behind the diaphram valve to let it open venting the gas to the front, propelling the round out of the barrel. On
the above post. I think that ground glass would work well in place of the iron fillings also. I read a book by Dean Ing ( soft
target?) Where the villain uses something similar That is impregnated with the acid that is the main component of ant venom
to disable people (PAIN ?). I always thought this might work pretty good. By the way, here is something about a large calliber
air rifle <a href="http://www.history.rochester.edu/appleton/a/airgun.html" target="_blank">www.history.rochester.edu/
appleton/a/airgun.html</a>
[ April 06, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: johnn 99 ]

You mean like formic acid or something.
im aussie too... dag nam gun laws... it breaks balls down here getting a gun licence. i got one. i dont fool around though and
make improvised munitions. im just interested in all of these topics. information is power is what most ppl would agree. i have
actually been on the forum for a long time, well before it was changed in 2000, i have gone under the names boba_fett and
now azazel. In all of those years i havnt tried many things Cough*ap*cough. But i dont think local law can put what used to be
a 12 year old in jail for trying anything of that sort. Im currently studying chemisty under my science degree at uni and i find
this forum to be a most excellent way of studying the laws of chem in a fun way. Hell even the techniques to making some
things can improve greatly ones skills in the lab. anyways...
I didnt know that you could purchase air soft in australia with a gun licence. In what state have you seen them on sale. I would
like to purchase one if thats the case and practice my plinking skills on full automatic... hehe nah i really want an mp5 look-
alike :)
i have also gone around lookin for sabot rounds for an air rifle and the guys at the stores just ask why would i want that...
C$#k S@#$*rs
god damnit
mr.evil April 7th, 2002, 05:53 AM

i use 4.5 mm pellets for my airrifle..
here the link:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/evilpics2000/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/evilpics2000/
index.html</a>
(NBK, oke)
Cya
[ April 07, 2002, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 06:15 AM

People need to realize that geoshitties...I mean geocities <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> doesn't allow
linking to pictures or files from outside sources. Thus, you picture doesn't show up here.
In the future, just post the link so we can cut and paste it without having to right click on the red X box, OK?
BTW, a picture of a pellet tin does nothing to help eleveate this discussion. :rolleyes:
FragmentedSanity April 7th, 2002, 12:48 PM

Az - Sorry for the confusion - Airsoft are illegal imports here - but I dare say you could get one if you acquired an armourers
licence.. maybe. But all that does is make them expensive. What I want to know is how an airsoft gun works so I can make
my very own AEG :D
Oh - and I have found that a lot of places in the states will ship stuff too you - but if customs nabs it then youve done your
money - and if you were silly you might get a nasty visit. They consider the auto airsoft guns to be that same as a machine
gun and will prosecute accordingly.
But if all you want is a springer pistol then you might get lucky as they are shipped as toys, and as such you can plead
ignorance.
Now for todays idea - a small steel bb set in the business end of a lead pellet should help it expand more and cause more
damage - the same idea is used in normal bullets with pretty good results - why not in an air rifle.
FS
RTC April 7th, 2002, 12:57 PM

If I lived in a country as fucked as that, I'd be on the next boat out of there, money or no money!
I grew up around guns, knifes, improvised shit, from sharp sticks to improvised shotguns.
If someone took away my right to buy pellet guns, that'd make me hit the roof!
If your country get's any more backwards it'll be eating it's own arse!

I never thought that a country with more fucked up gun laws than the UK existed, but live and learn...
Speaking of adding a BB to a lead pellet, that reminds me of some pellets I saw in my local gun shop. They were a lead pellet
with a steel ball inside the lead in the head. I can't remember what they were called but there was a description on the tin
which read something to the effect of: "a hard hitting lead pellet with a heart of steel".
mr.evil April 7th, 2002, 01:40 PM

hey anthony,
were it cannisters with an round red top? the local gunshop is gone now, so i can't take a picture of it... i thought they were
called:
Fireshots or so... anyway something with 'fire'
Cya
endotherm April 7th, 2002, 03:10 PM

Mr.Evil & Anthony
<a href="http://www.pyramidair.com/cgi-bin/pellet.pl?pellet_id=56&img=champion_fireball177.jpg&ht=205&wd=200"
target="_blank">Steel Pellet</a>
PyramidAir.com is a great and reliable airgun sight btw.
The steel tipped pellets look wicked, i'm probably going to buy a pack soon, probably great for busting windows.
mr.evil April 7th, 2002, 03:24 PM

Hello,
hey, i've been right! on the cannister it sais "Fireball"
i think that pellets are very good to penetrate things... i will search the city, if i can found those things :)
Cya
kvitekrist April 7th, 2002, 05:41 PM

hello.
i've been planing to make a cast for something like this:
<img src="http://home.no.net/gjalring/sp/shot.gif" alt="" />
it would be about twice as long as an normal airgun pellet
DBSP April 7th, 2002, 06:26 PM

The steel tipped bullets are simply nylon bullets tipped with some steel. It makes them lighter so the V0 gets a bit higher. I
don't like them it no energi on them.
Kvitekrist: If you make a bullet twise as long as a normal one it will simply drop out of the barrel since it will be to heavy.
If you want something with power buy a weably tracker, I've had one for about three years(don't use it anymore since I bought
a .22LR).
Magpies and crows are no problem at all, I've even shot to badgers with it, They where shot in a trap but still and they died
from a single shot.

They're probably the ones, the name "Champion" rings a bell, they must have redone the packaging though. Those aren't
nylon, they're lead, I'm 99% sure of this because of two things: Nylon isn't metallic grey/silver in colour and those pellets are
10.5gr, whilst most lead .177 pellets are 8-9gr. That means they're also have good energy retention so should be good for
window busting. One thing I have noticed about glazing pane glass is that when shot it doesn't tend to shatter, but rather the
pellet punches a small through it and cracks the surrounding area. Possibly a frangible pellet would have better effects?
Edit: Someone asked how quiet silenced air rifles are. They can be very effective, I've fired silenced, precharged pneumatics
and if it's a good silencer then due to the lack of recoil and a smooth trigger, you often don't realise that the gun has fired
until you hear the pellet hit the target. I doubt someone a few yards downrange would hear anything.
[ April 07, 2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

Kvitekrist, the main problem with your design isn't weight. Although that is always a factor in a weapon with such limited power.
The real problem, is to much surface area touching the barrel and creating drag. That is why the diablo shape of pellet
replaced strate sided rounds in the first place. You might try taking 2 of the pointed pellets, and glueing the skirt of one to the
nose of the other. BTW I just blew an O-ring out on my crossman 600 doing something similar.
nbk2000 April 8th, 2002, 01:22 AM

I asked about the silenced airguns. It's good to know they're silent enough for night work.
The steel tipped pellets ARE good for shooting windows, car windshields, and spotlight bulbs. I know because I've done these
things with them.
However, they don't have accuracy worth a shit out past 10 yards. Either too much drag from the shape, or uneven weight
distribution. Whatever the reason, you've got to be up close and personal with the target to get good accuracy.

Lo again
Australia does have its advantages - it is the land of WIDE OPEN SPACES after all :)
and as everyone should know by now prohabiton doesnt work - guns are there if you want them. In the case of air guns, I see
a birght future in home made weapons. To all those who poopoo the use of homemade guns for anything serious - it all
comes down to how well they are made - even factory guns jam and fall to bits sometimies - if you make it yourself you can
be confident about the workmanship - and you know how well you can make something.
But I digress.
I really dont think the secret to drastically increasing an pellet guns effectiveness lies in the pellet - Think more on how to
improve the gun.
The barrel just isnt big enough to shoot an effective load. But if your desperate you could try some thin metal tubing filled with
something sensitive and capped with a small rifle primer - as mentioned these fit nicely in .177 air guns - tassles at the other
end to stabalise in flight and youve got your self an exploding arrow - but it would be easier to scale it up and use a bow or a
crossbow
An arrow like this could also be capped with a little wax and filled with a liquid - poison - tranq - narcotic whatever - but I doubt
youd have the accuracy required to be effective.
In the end the best way to increas your damage with a air rifle is shot placement. If your going to spend up on the rifle - get a
good one with a good scope - chose a good pellet and stick with it and nothing else - then practice.
I used to shoot 2cm groups at 35m with the cheap open sight break barrel springer I got for christmas when I was 11 (best
damn christmas presant I ever got) Mind you that was after multiple thousand rounds - I loved that little gun, and it showed in
the results - with open sights I could hit targets reliably to about 50m or a door at about 200m (not that it was effective at that
range - but thats not the point) - simply coz Id shot it so much It was almost an extension of my body (melodramatic I know,
but how else do you describe it) -But I expect everyone is the same with their favorite piece.
Remeber - Head shots will kill bunnies!

i have interests in crossbows and hunting bows... from my experience they are not anything i would use to fire an improvised
projectile...
1. they take to damn long to load. especially if u use cross bows... even hunting bows take ages b/cos u may have to use u
wrist pully thingamajig.
2. the accuracy over longer distances is greatly reduced for larger weight loads... as it is hunting bows only have a decent shot
from a max of 40 m away from target... and thats with a lightweight arrow with a teenie weenie arrow tip... if u want to use
expanding heads u compromise a few meters...
fhark it i think i will stick to a rocket launcher haha jk :p

How about a rocket boosted arrow? Something with an inertia activate powder train delay to fire the rocket motor say 5 M after
you lauch it.
Charlie Workman April 10th, 2002, 02:53 AM

There was a technology developed on the early 70's called ballistic innoculation. Basically, they made a hard pill in the shape
of an airgun pellet. The components were the sam as used in the common aspirin (minus the aspirin, of course). They are
used here in the western states to vaccinate wild game (principally elk). Though they've been in use for over twenty years, it's
been a very low profile affair. I've got a couple of .25 pellets a friend sent. They look similar to the old Whitworth hexagonal
bullet and are made to fit a special airgun. You could probably think of a few things to press into pellets. I'm working on a set
of dies to press the pellets, for an upcoming book. If anyone's interested, there were several patents issued in the 70's for
them. If memory serves, 3M was the primary assignee.
--------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle; life is a gas"
-Gidget
[ April 10, 2002, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

I shoot strike anywear matches out of my bb gun at hard objects from 10 feet and they explode nicley with a flash and a
crack. Not realy a weapon, but entertaining.

Does it not gunk up the barrle?

Nope, they just drop right in.
knowledgehungry December 27th, 2004, 02:18 PM

Well I have succeeded in making explosive air rifle ammunition, it was much easier than expected. I used AP as the explosive
and Remington pointed 4.5 mm lead pellets. I drilled out the inside of the pellet from the flared end. I first used a 1/8 inch
drill bit to hollow out the first few mm's, I then used a 3/32 bit as the diameter got smaller, and then finished with a 1/16 drill
bit which I drilled all the way through the tip of the pellet.
I then proceeded to fire the pellets from my pneumatic airgun at both a hardwood plywood board and a coffee can. I also fired
unmodified pellets for comparison purposes. Here are the results:
The explosive pellet put a hole of 20mm diameter in the can, the unmodified pellet made a hole of 8mm. Looking inside the
coffee can the explosive pellet was shattered into many small pieces, the other one hit the other side of the coffee can made
a dent and was in one piece inside.
The explosive pellet put an 8mm diameter hole in the plywood, and only penetrated about 5mm. The non explosive pellet put
a hole 5mm wide and penetrated about 10mm into the wood.
I will run tests on whether it detonates when hitting a softer target like some meat or something.
knowledgehungry December 28th, 2004, 01:04 AM

Well I shot a few of my rounds at some oranges. 3 out of 5 detonated, however I am not sure if they detonated on impact
with the orange or the board which the orange was in front of, it would appear that they detonated on the orange by the way
the remnants of the orange looked, but I am not sure. I will do more tests tomorrow when everyone isn't asleep.
UPDATE: Shot at oranges on stand, detonated 100% of the time. Started casting my own pellets and filling them with
explosives(for bigger charge) 1 out of 2 worked. I have discovered that the key ingredient for detonation is for the rear of the
pellets to be glued, this makes it so that the AP cannot move back thus lessening shock of impact.
wrythawk December 28th, 2004, 06:01 AM

well if you want to get a higher velocity with a spring air rifle you could put a pellet in your breach and push it 1cm deeper with
a needle or something, then put in a drop of ether and put another pellet in youre rifle, close it and fire.
I haven't tried it myself but i've heard it a couple of times from other people, try it at youre own risk.

A drop of pretty much anything flammable behind the pellet or into the transfer port will increase power due to dieseling. It
won't turn an airgun into a .22 rimfire though.
I'd just like to remind everyone not to try knowledgehungry's explosive pellet idea in a spring/piston gun - at least not without
some adaption. The exposed AP at the rear of the pellet will ignite on firing and the pellet will detonate in the breach. This is
due to the heat generated when the spring compresses the air in the chamber.
A trick that uses this effect is to place a small amount of nitrocellulose in the rear of a pellet and fire from a springer.
Skean Dhu December 28th, 2004, 10:00 AM

I read this on a air-rifle site a while back, but supposedly bars of soap are good for ammo comparison when trying to see what
it will do to the internals of your living target ie; hunting small game.
I've been considering getting a pellet/BB repeater for some time, any one got any suggestions.? right now I'm looking at the
Daisy Powerline 880.
cyclonite4 December 28th, 2004, 11:10 AM

I live in australia too.
Our gun laws may suck, but guns arent exactly hard to get (illegaly that is).
I make my own pneumatic weapons with PVC pipe (much like spudguns).
I have made a rifle that stores about 10L of air @ 150psi, and fires projectiles about 15mm in width.
I'm not sure on the muzzle energy of the weapon, but it can fire special homemade ammunition through a car door from
about 20 metres away @ 120psi.
After buying all the parts (pipe, solenoid, etc.) it cost less than $100 Australian to build, and the local police don't really give a
shit about 'spudguns'.
The only unfrotunate thing is that, unless i carry my 1.0kg air tank, i have to manually pump it up, which takes about 30s.
I am working on designs for a smaller, more powerful pneumatic weapon to be powered on some kind of gas generating
chemical reaction and have been thinking about decomposition of concentrated H2O2.
FUTI December 28th, 2004, 07:18 PM

to Skean Dhu: I think that gelatine is standard material when it comes to testing of what projectile would do to body, but soap
isn't bad idea although it's density and viscosity can be very diferent but then again velocity, mass, contact surface, balistic
properties, material strength of air rifle projectile is diferent from the standard weapon so it may be best choice for simulation
task.
to wrythawk or Anthony: it does make sense what you write but does that pellet actualy get to the target or explode? Is it
posible to cover the rear side of pellet with nitrocellulose varnish to get the same effect?
to cyclonite4: good work. decomposition of H2O2 can make a lot of gas but is also little unpredictable as you go to higher
concentration. What % of H2O2 you planed to use? And what kind of catalyst? Water extract of raw finely choped potato can do
the job but I doubt it will improve recharging tank time.
to knowledghungry: I apologise if I didn't understand corectly what you done... you made a hole in the pellet form the front to
bottom to fill it with AP, then you glue the rear end (bottom) to avoid AP ignite inside the rifle but on the contact with target?
Please confirm or correct me.

You are more or less correct, however I glue the end not to prevent ignition, but to ensure detonation on impact. If there is
nothing in the rear of the pellet the AP can fly out the back on impact rather than detonating.
wrythawk December 29th, 2004, 04:43 AM

to futi: no the pellet won't explode on target, te flammable liquid will combust in the barrel and will incease the pellets speed.
but why would you make a .177 pellet explode the hole in the back is to small I think to do decent damage, maybe fill them
up with mercury :d
if you want an airgun to kill a buffalo with take a look at shin sung career rifles
http://www.asportingchance.org/excerpts/shinsung.html
it isn't getting any better than that :d
cyclonite4 December 29th, 2004, 08:49 AM

I was actually thinking like this, rather than have a refill source, power the cannon DIRECTLY (Well not directly, but hold the
pressure developed behind a solenoid, or use a high concentration to propel it by the fast formation of O2, with the projectile
blocking the barrel) on the H2O2. I got the idea when reading about H2O2 propelled rockets at some site (can't remember
URL). As a catalyst is concerned, I was thinking about KMnO4 (a tad unsuitable for my current design ideas), MnO2, or Silver
(MnO2 preferrable). Basically the reaction would be started by forcing the H2O2 to contact with the MnO2. For H2O2
concentration, I would experiment, starting from lower concentrations, and keep upping it until i find suitable power (of course i
would do calc. with pv=nRT so as to make sure i dont have too much pressure from a given amount of H2O2).
I can get a 15% H2O2 solution very cheaply from my pool store, so I would start with that and see how i go. The only
problems I can see is the effort in concentrating H2O2, and not being able to predict how exothermic the decomposition would
be (in concentrated amounts). I will post results here whn I have finished, and when I get my website up I will put information
on pneumatic weaponry there.
I just fired one of my completed rifles (cost me $5 in parts, the rest was 'acquired') and it pushed a marble (15mm bore) @
90 psi, straight through 10 layers of folded up cardboard boxes, and (unexpectedly) through 2 high-density (i don't know what
material is but its strong) fences, and because I couldn't find the marble after, I assumed it fragemented into many small
parts, infact, I am suprised it didnt shatter after hitting the first fence.

I am working on making larger rounds by casting pellets myself, this worked reasonably well for me I just need to tweak it. I
want an exploding pellet because .177 pellets are so weak and I want something that will take down squirrels a little quicker, I
don't like making them suffer. Also my larger rounds might have some home defense uses.

cyclonite4, don't forget that marbles are designed to be thrown, and to hit concrete, other glass marbles, etc. They are
toughened glass, quite often. It wouldn't be a suprise if it simply carried on through then rolled away, since it is far tougher
than the targets you shot. Shooting it at a steel or ceramic plate would be a way to get it to shatter, though even thin steel is
likely to not be hard enough.
Sounds cool, anyway. Was this the H2O2 powered version?

SWIM once fired some 30mm marbles from an aircannon, the target was some 20mm particle board, the marbles (as
expected) passed through it completely undamaged. They blew some very nice holes in it though :D
grendel23 January 5th, 2005, 06:22 AM

I once shot a glass marble at a brick wall with a sling shot and was astonished to hear it whistle past my ear after it bounced
off the wall and came straight back at me.
Be careful of hard projectiles together with a hard target.
wrythawk January 5th, 2005, 07:56 AM

just a little historic background info :d
did you know that airrifles already existed in the time that napoleon was concering big parts of europe?
the airrifles in those days were used as sniper rifles because they were more accurate than blackpowder rifles, and also they
didn't produce smoke,muzzle flash or a lot of noise.
anyone who was cought with an airrifle got killed immediatily.
so airrifles have been fearsome weapons, so with modern technology they could be even more powerfull.
but .117 is just to small to kill something of decent size, I'd rather use blackpowder rifle calibers like .50 .577 .600 ... these
have much more impact power and have enough room to fill with explosives ;)
just my 2cts
greetz
cyclonite4 January 5th, 2005, 09:04 AM

Well, I am so impressed with the marble's performance, it's now my standard ammo, the great thing is that the air rifle/
cannon is so simple and made from the same parts as a spudgun.
No, this was not the H2O2 version, it should be much more powerful :D. This was a simple pump-up style pneumatic charged
to 90psi.
I just found a huge marble lying around that fits my somewhat large 40mm aircannon, so I'm gonna see what that does. :P
I wonder if i could put a hole in a car :D.
Mardec January 6th, 2005, 10:02 AM

You could also make a rifle grenade like in Band of brothers.
It is nothing more then a impact detonition grenade with a stick attached that fits into the barrel.
--------------------------------- ||
===================|xx The Grenade xx|
--------------------------------- |_______________|
Oke now the --'s is the barrel of the gun and the =='s is the stick of the grenade.
The stick will also bring balance to the grenade when it falls from the air so it will land on its nose.
Ps. This thing will NOT SHOOT STRAIGHT!!!

Cyclonite,
Probably!
Are the plans anywhere?
cyclonite4 January 7th, 2005, 11:38 AM

You won't find the plans anywhere on the net right now, because they are self designed, but once I finish the basic framework
of my website, and find a decent host, I will put them up for all to see. Also I might need to get another camera because the
current one I have (a webcam actually) takes REALLY shitty photos.
Noone here knows of a decent, free website host do they, the best I've found so far is Freewebs :(
workstation January 12th, 2005, 12:40 PM

Does any body know what kind of energy improvement you get from putting nitrocellulose behind the pellet in a spring air
gun? Anthony maybe? I know it "works", but does anyone know how well? If not, I will try to find out.
Thanks

My reference for this is long gone, but definitely supersonic. I recall the figure of 2000fps+.
The limit will be either the mechanical strength of the gun, or the pellet breaking apart. I wouldn't expect much in the way of
accuracy though - airgun pellets are not designed to go supersonic!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > PVC C e m e n t s t r o n g e n o u g h ?
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Ericm115 August 22nd, 2001, 09:25 PM

If i was to put two peices of pvc together, 1 being made to tightly overlap the other, and had coated them both with PVC
c e m e n t , W ould they hold in a com bustion potato gun? I will be using that method for all peices except the endcap for the
spra y . T h a n k s
CyclonitePyro August 22nd, 2001, 11:55 PM

That sounds like a rather silly question, since its invention, there have been thousands of spud gu ns m ade over the years
m a d e o f P V C , I don't know of any other m ethods of putting two pieces together b e s i d e s u s i n g g l u e a n d t h e b e s t g l u e t o u s e is
the glue that's m ade for it!, PVC cement.
The correct way to do it is to p rime both pieces with PVC prim er which is methylene chloride which softens the PVC, then one
puts on the glue and inserts the pieces together turning one piece 1/4 of a turn while inse rting.
T h i s m ethod, the only method, literally m ake the two pieces one, it softens the two the bonds them together.
The PVC will burst out the sides rather then where you glued it, if it burst at all.
M a k e s u r e y o u u s e P V C c e m e n t n o t C P V C c e m ent.
Sorry about the double post there, I hit submit and as it was loa ding I saw som e m i s t a k e s a n d h i t s t o p , t h e n s u b m i t t e d t h e
new one.
[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited August 22, 2001).]
DoH BoY August 24th, 2001, 12:59 AM

PVC cement is pratically liquid PVC plastic.
kind of like liquid paper.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Liquid Fuel Rockets
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TariqMujahid April 5th, 2002, 12:26 AM

I've searched this board pretty thoroughly, and only found topics on Solid Fuel rockets, like a mix of AN and Al and charcoal etc...
On the internet, i've found some plans for building a liquid fuel rocket booster. It uses a fuel of Hydrogen Peroxide (i think 30%, but i cant find the website anymore) and
Gasoline. That's well and good, but the plans cost $25. As NBK2000 pointed out, yes, i do have a hairstring budget and i don't feel like spending that much money. Why am i
bothering with this then, you ask? For knowledge; i doubt i'll be building a rocket booster in the near future. Perhaps someone else has bought the plans and is willing to share
the knowledge with us?
Anyhow, if you don't know how a liquid fuel rocket works, here's how: It pumps the pressurized fuel into a combustion chamber, where it is burned (duh), and the pressurized
gasses are released from the nozzle and thus propel the rocket.
My "improvised" or "ghetto" version of this rocket would be to use a PVC pipe as the main body. It would be divided into 3 sections: The main fuel tank, the combustion
chamber, and the area connecting the Combustion Chamber and Fuel Tank. The Fuel Tank and Combustion chamber would be of equal width, but the connecting piece would
be narrower. The Fuel Tank would be pressurized right before launching the rocket using a CO2 cannister perhaps, thus pushing the fuel into the Combustion chamber to be
burnt.
My problem is- if i use a CO2 cannister to pressurize the fuel, could that cause the PVC pipe to explode? Also, what would be a good liquid fuel to use? The fuel must include an
Oxidizer, in my case Hydrogen Peroxide, and something else that burns nicely. Thanks
Ctrl_C April 5th, 2002, 01:00 AM

Another solution is H2O2 over a silver catalyst. It reacts violently, producing hot gases. Silver however is expensive and you would need to make
some sort of screen out of it. Hydrogen Peroxide can be distilled to save money.
TariqMujahid April 5th, 2002, 01:12 AM

As a substitute for silver, i've heard of Iron Oxide being used and yielding very similar results. Silver is expensive, which is why i'd prefer the Iron Oxide.
Silver is a catalyst in the reaction, right? So simply putting silver in Hydrogen Peroxide shouldn't cause the reaction you speak of right away...shouldn't you have to apply heat
to the mixture? I'd prefer this, because it seems a lot safer than having a binary rocket fuel. Then again, the whole idea of an improvised liquid-fuel rocket doesn't seem all
that safe to begin with..
You say Hydrogen Peroxide can be distilled? My method of purifying it was to freeze the drug-store version or hardware store version and separate the H2O2 from the H2O that
is mixed in with it. For rocket fuels, it is ideal to have 90% H2O2. Could freezing or distillation be used to bring the H2O2 up to this concentration?

I remember seeing a couple of tables that I think might be relevent.
<table border=0>
<tr><td>H2+O3</td><td>607</td><td>H2+O2</td><td>450-460</td></tr>
<tr><td>CH4+O2</td><td>385</td><td>jp5 + H202</td><td>330</td></tr>
<tr><td>H202</td><td>160</td><td>Kerosene+O2</td><td>355</td></tr>
</table>
but check out Analog July 1996, and something called 'The Starflight Handbook'
[ April 06, 2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: James ]
Machiavelli April 5th, 2002, 02:12 AM

This one might be helpful:
<a href="http://www.gramlich.net/projects/rocket/" target="_blank">http://www.gramlich.net/projects/rocket/</a>
"HOW to DESIGN, BUILD and TEST SMALL LIQUID-FUEL ROCKET ENGINES"
vulture April 5th, 2002, 03:34 PM

Why use silver if you can use copper, brass, manganese dioxide and potassium permanganate as a catalyst?
And I don't think 30% hydrogen peroxide is gonna work. You'll need at least 60%.
Dinitrogen oxide (also called laughing gas) is used as a double based propellant together with organic fuels. Shouldn't be too hard too find it or you can make it by heating
ammoniumnitrate. However, the liquifying is all yours... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

i would presume this rocket would be hard to construct on a low budget due to size constraints vs material costs.
I love topics like this however there are so many things to consider. here are some things i have picked up along the way in concern to making such a rocket. I must admit that
i am not quite sure as to what the h2o2 fuel would actually perform like... anyways
From what i know so far, is that for a rocket with liquid propellent there are many factors which are relevent to the thing actually working. One major concern is the quality of
the fuel itself. It must be able to travel through an injection system effectively so as not to create any inconsistansies within the system. There must be 2 injection systems by
the way which exert high pressures by filling the combustion chamber with an oxidiser and the fuel. Now...
The parts to outline -
2 injection systems are required
1 liquid oxygen is needed
1 Fuel sorce is needed
Now when taking these into consideration the rocket would actually be quite large... or larger than most would expect. Remember there would be 2 sections to house the
seperate fuels, and then 2 injectors pumping away constantly. The injectors, im not too sure where you could get these from. If your have a good understanding of mechanical
engineering you may know how to extract these efficienty from a fuel injected engine. But thats just an idea. Apart from that you must work out what suitable volume
combustion chamber is needed. Could be alot of maths in working that out and to tell you the truth i have no clue as to what you even need to take into concern in regards to
that. I think you would need to know how much hot gasses are created so you can determine combustion chamber size. Remember equast gases will choke the combustion
reaction if they dont escape but the injectors pumping in product fuels should compensate for this. The combustion chamber must also be equiped with an igniter system.
I have heard of alcohol and petrol [not too sure what type but i would assume from the generalisation it refers to common car type fuels, but i dont know if these burn fast
enough ] being used as fuel types.
I could go on for ages my friend but it would take a long time...
However hard it may sound this would make an excellent project. One which may produce excellent results. Nothing better than being proud for what you made. best of luck
Anthony April 9th, 2002, 11:42 AM

I don't think liquid fueled rockets are really suitable for the kind of things we tend to do. I get the impression that liquid fueled motors have a much poorer power/weight ratio
than solid motors. The fuel just doesn't seem to pack enough energy per unit weight. The motors are controlable though, you can turn them off/on and throttle them,
something you can't do with a solid fueled motor, but in our applications I don't think this advantage outweighs the benefits.
Military missiles use solid propellent, so why argue with that ? They can't be wrong can they ?

The V2 rocket's use h2o2.

I think cruise missiles (tomahawks) use some kind of gas turbine... with a solid booster to get them off of the launch pad anf up to a decent air speed though.
TariqMujahid April 9th, 2002, 04:41 PM

I'm interested in Liquid-Fueled rockets not as a weapon; but simply for learning and trying something new. Maybe the military does use solid propellants, but that's not what
i'm interested in. If i want solid propellants, i can buy rocket engines from the hobby store. Of course it is a difficult project and i doubt with my limited budget ($7 and a $20
gift certificate to a mall), i'll be building one any time soon. It's fun to talk about though, and give myself and some other good minds something to ponder about.
HOOPS123 April 9th, 2002, 05:48 PM

Check out project "R.U.S.H."
<a href="http://www.rocketguy.com/oldhome.html" target="_blank">http://www.rocketguy.com/oldhome.html</a>
nbk2000 April 9th, 2002, 08:36 PM

Russian ICBMs use liquid fuels because they're more powerful and controlable. US ICBMs use solid fuel because they're less maintainence, and store for years. Cruise missles
use solid-fuel booster rockets to get them up to flight speed before the gas turbine kicks in.
I'd have to stick to solid fuel for any improvised weapon. Liquid propellants are dangerous.
cutefix April 9th, 2002, 09:23 PM

The engine design for liquid fuel rockets is more sophisticated.It was very popular during the rocket development years after the second world war,as was led by von Braun in
White Sands.However,for practical reasons,during the latter years,miniaturization of missile components,and improvement of guidance,favored the compactness of solid fueled
rocket design.There were fewer accidents related to storing of hypergolic rocket fuels which led to deadly accidents that occured with the Titan liquid fueled
rockets.previously.Even Russia spent so much time to "copy" the Minutemen ICBM solid fuel propulsion system.This development by the US made them superior in missile
technology,that was envied by China and Russia.
I think only aspiring nuclear capable countrries like India,Pakistan,and even North Korea still favores the obsolete technology of liquid fuel rocket propulsion.
[ April 09, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]
Arkangel April 9th, 2002, 10:09 PM

Tariq, for a variation, you could have a go at a steam powered rocket. Can't remember if it was on the forum I saw some info, but the one I saw most detail on was powering
a car. Have a search around, they are simple and powerful.

Hydrogen Peroxide + Silver, from what i've heard, produces adequate amounts of steam for propulsion... What happens, is the reaction causes Oxygen to form and be
expelled through the nozzle very quickly. At the same time, being an exothermic reaction, a lot of heat is developed and the H20 that is then in the combustion chamber is
converted to steam and aids in the propulsion. Still, it requires the very pure H202, which can be hard to come by.

If you want steam propulsion but don't want to mess around with high conc H2O2, it can also be made from tap water :) You need a pressure vessel full of water and attached
to the exhaust is a valve which can be opened remotely. You heat the water, possibly via an emersion element on board, or more simply (and lighter) with an external gas
burner. Once the tank is pressurised and the water super-heated, you open the exhaust valve, the pressure in the tank drops rapidly and the water flash boils, shooting large
amounts of steam out of the exhaust.
Same sort of concept as an air/water rocket in that you leave everything on the ground.
Range might well be quite limited though, but the fuel is cheap.

A frangible disc is often the valve, located just inside the nozzle
BoB- April 11th, 2002, 04:02 AM

Pyro valves are much simpler to design than frangible barrier valves, basically a small pyro charge slams a piston forward aligning the vent holes, opening the valve. Its
intstantanious, reusable, and its what pro liquid rockets use.
Heres some links for you;
<a href="http://www.rocketryonline.com/" target="_blank">http://www.rocketryonline.com/</a> -Online rocket mag.
<a href="http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/websites/rock.htm" target="_blank">http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/websites/rock.htm</a> -rocketry webring.
<a href="http://www.tripoli.org/" target="_blank">http://www.tripoli.org/</a> -Online model rocketry fanclub.

and plus why would a nation want to waste money on a weapon which can be oposed by a safer system, which has simpler parts, needs only maintenance on the warheads b/
c rocket body has expiry date, and is safer to store...
i think a really awesome project would be to design a solid fuel rocket about the size of a car. The maths behind that would be awesome. If you managed to get it all right
after all of the test flights [and thousands of dollars] im sure you would be quite proud.
has anyone here come up with an idea to control a rocket from ground ??? i was thinking along the lines of model airplane r/c... im not too sure on the distance these things
work on though... can anyone help me out here
nbk2000 April 11th, 2002, 01:57 PM

The SALT treaties limited the number of ICBMs each country could have.
The US missles have superior accuracy, so we could use smaller warheads.

The russians weren't as accurate, so they needed larger warheads, which required more lift. That means liquid fuel rockets which have superior fuel weight/power ratios. Plus,
they used larger missles so each one could carry more warheads. I thinks some of the SS-2x series carried almost 30 nukes each. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" />

To put any sort of guidance system onto a rocket is illegal in the US...however, no one here cares about that. =)
The model airplane idea isn't a bad one; but you'd have to get the rocket aligned onto the target at the beginning of the flight so it doesn't drift out of range on you. To do
this, you would simply attatch different servos (sp?) onto the fins of the rocket to guide it. The servos would be controlled by a remote control on the ground. Apparently, you
can have servos that attatch video to it too...of course, this will cost money.
One of the big problems with this though is keeping the rocket stable. The rocket may tend to twist, so that "UP" on your remote control is no longer "UP", etc. I've heard a
suggestion from somewhere else of using a gyroscope to keep it stable?
This is getting off topic though; i think it's worthy of a new forum post, provided it hasn't been mentioned before. We're talking about Rocket Guidance in a section about Liquid
Rocket Fuels =).
BoB- April 13th, 2002, 12:59 AM

If you've got a R/C model airplane, you dont need a missle, you've already got a stable guided aerial vehicle.
The weak propeller that drives most of them could never carry an effective explosive charge, heres where a liquid fueled rocket comes in, it should serve as the main engine.
In effect a mini cruise missle.
It could also be launched straight up with the aid of a few model rocket engines.

yea but i aint bin laden man... i aint gona go arming an RC model plane with H.E... its too disrespectfull

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Guns for those under 18
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View Full Version : Guns for those under 18
ImaPyro September 1st, 2001, 09:42 AM

Do any of you know a good place to purchase weapons if you are under 18? Like online or something?
I've been visiting these forums for a while, I just decided to register today http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
madog September 1st, 2001, 09:57 AM

here is your 3 choices:
1. Buy one ilegaly from someone you know, (not off the internet!!)use cash.
2. Make a zip gun.
3. Convert a blank firer or deactivated gun.
------------------
ImaPyro September 1st, 2001, 11:58 AM

Damn, I was kinda hoping someone knew of some gunrunners or something. I know a drug dealer that will sell me his .32 Snub-nosed revolver for $30, but I want a pistol
preferably. And I dont want to make a zip gun, those things are way too dangerous.
Maddoc September 1st, 2001, 02:19 PM

IMAPYRO - So a revolver isnt a pistol then?
ImaPyro wrote -
----
.32 Snub-nosed revolver for $30, but I want a pistol preferably.
----
AR-15 Man September 1st, 2001, 02:25 PM

Some people consider Pistols to be autoloaders. These terms have been interchanged over the years. But expecting people to give you the name of a gun runner over the net
is crazy. And if there was some site that sold guns illegaly to kids how long you think it would last?
[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited September 01, 2001).]
Mr Cool September 1st, 2001, 05:00 PM

Buy the revolver!!!!
OH MY GOD, IT'S ONLY $30!!!!!! JUST BUY IT!!!!
Victim September 1st, 2001, 05:24 PM

Does anyone else smell bacon..?
------------------
ImaPyro September 1st, 2001, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Victim:
Does anyone else smell bacon..?

I'm not a goddamn cop. Im 14 for crissakes.
madog September 1st, 2001, 08:45 PM

BUY THE FRIGIN 30$ REVOLVER!! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH GUNS COST NOWADAYS!!
------------------
ImaPyro September 1st, 2001, 09:27 PM

Heh, Oink Oink Oink....
I think I'll joint the rest of my kind and go roll in my own shit.
[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited September 01, 2001).]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > W TF?
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View Full Version : WTF?
ImaPyro S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 10:50 PM

I m n o t a m o t h e r f u c k ing cop, alright? W TF do I need to do to prove Im not a fucking cop? Jesus christ. Fucking asshole
m oderator.

Alrig ht, sorry for calling the m o d e r a t o r a n a s s h o l e . I r e a lize that you all must be paranoid about th e pigs coming to this forum
and cracking down on everything, but I assure you im n o t a c o p , p l e a s e d o n t e v e n m e n t i o n m e in the sam e sentance with
those cocksu cking fudge-pack ers. Maybe m y m essage on getting guns if under 18 was too straight forward and m a d e i t s o u n d
like a crackdown, Im new to these foru ms, cut m e a bre a k p l e a s e .
I want som e g u n s b e c a u s e m y parents are those "anti-gun" type so I realize the only way to get them is either by making
t h e m o r g o i n g through the black m arket. I also have the option of stealing them , but our gunshops in town all have a good
chunk of employees and lots of security cams.

I'll try to rem e m b e r n ot to ask about that kind of stuff if its goin g to get you all p aranoid and shit. I'll just ask som ewhere
else.
A n d y e s , I a m 14.
ALENGOSVIG1 S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 11:22 PM

The other thread got closed becuase it was a stupid question. not becuase m eglo mania thinks your a cop.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Cheap delay fuse
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View Full Version : Cheap delay fuse
oODarkVisionsOo April 5th, 2002, 02:56 PM

I just ran accross something interseting this moorring and I have being experimenting with diff ammoounts but basicly
I took three fuses from some old(1987) fireworks I found in the barn and tried to make a little crater maker in a 35mm film can I took and crushed all the powder both
propellent and stars and put them in the can and taped it up, but I wanted to make sure it would go off so I braided three fuse's together and they kpet coming undone so I
put super glue all up and down the fuse waited for it to harden when out to light it and fter 2min the 5inch fuse quit burning only half way done where I had went over board.
After further testing I found that a light amount applied to the fuse drasticaly added time to the burn rate form 1 sec per inch to almost 40 sec per inch. I just thought it might
be helpfully if it is, or you try it and it works or doesnt please post your findings. Thanks J.
oODarkVisionsOo April 5th, 2002, 03:07 PM

I just light it and it 1.48.12 to go and that was with a 5 inch fuse lightly dabbed all the way down with superglue *Nasty Smell* It did not blow but made a foot 3'6"solid
shower that went from green to blue/green/blue I think I will try and layer the next one but I dont have a Digital camera but I will dig out the Poloroid and use the webcam if
any one wants to see pics well Thanks J.
[ April 05, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: oODarkVisionsOo ]
Jack Ruby April 5th, 2002, 05:15 PM

A Cratermaker, CO2 Bomb, Valcun Grenade, etc. Aren't made from Any thing but CO2 Powerlets(Usually 12g).
Don't use the tissue Paper fuse like is used on Chinese Fircrackers for you devices. It burns to fast and is unreliable.
The fact that you could make a "Noise Maker" from a film canister is not somthing I would Advertise.
I will help you out. When using Plastic Casing(ie. Film Canisters) put some Tissue Paper in the Bottom; The you powder; your fusethen more tissue paper. Then put the lid on.
Tape it up tightly with
Electrical tape.
Fuse Either make some or Buy Visco. It is not that hard to find.
[ April 05, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Jack Ruby ]

Hahahahaha...I'd edit that 'plastic egg' thread if I were you, dark vision, or you're gonna get H.E.D.
BTW, homemade fuses should be a no-no unless in a life-death situation.
nbk2000 April 5th, 2002, 10:29 PM

Too late for him. :D
Jack Ruby April 6th, 2002, 12:15 AM

Bitter
I disagree. I have made Homeade fyse many times. Once you get it right it is great.
Not as good as the Visco but Work quite well. like everything it should all be practiced before hand that will make you more effective when you need to be.
I have method I forget how I came across it but it makes a core burning fuse.
You then coat with NC laquer and you are in business.
I use Ping Pong Balls for my laquer for this. Why waste Smokeless.
BoB- April 6th, 2002, 03:24 AM

Dark Visions-
Not to insult, but several online dictionaries are available, and a simple proof-read would make you seem slightly more intelligent.
<a href="http://www.dictionary.com" target="_blank">http://www.dictionary.com</a>
There are even thesaurus's that are linked from this page.
nbk2000 April 6th, 2002, 03:48 AM

Bob, feel free to insult the idiot because he's now nothing more than a collection of randomized magnetic fields on the servers HDD.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Im provise d electrical weapons
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anyone devised anything which charges up capacitors or capacitor type projectiles which offer a decent shock and are then fired
from s o m e k ind of weapon... ??? sound gay ?
not too sure myself n ever eve r really thought o f anything like this before ...
m y ideas are that the weapon has som e kind of battery or power source which charges up some type of capacitor able to hold
a large charge... i think something of this sort exists in disposable cameras. i got shocked to this shit house once when i
opened one up... so i figure why not m a k e s o m e k i n d o f p n e u m atic weapon which charges them and then shoots th e m a t a
target [living of course]
kind of like a stun gu n... what kind of cappacitor would i be looking at ??? how do you make your own capacitor. The simple
design is basically 2 m etal plates close to each other but not touching. the plates are hooked up to some kind of power source
creating + and - charge on the plates. when disconnector from the power source the capacitor holds that charge effe ctively.
So... physics ppl... tell me how i can m a k e s o m e kind of missile shaped capacitor which could hold a large charge, large
e n o u g h t o s t u n a n a n i m al.
I g u e s s t h i s o n e s f o r p h y s i c s p e o p l e m ore than it is for m e... i havnt taken many physics classed b4. if im com pletely wrong
plea se tell m e if i got it all wrong. thanx guys :confused:
Machiavelli April 9th, 2002, 07:52 AM

About the subject of charging up capacitors by variable m eans to shock people, especially with disposable cameras, there was
a thread a short while ago, <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum /ultim atebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000341"
target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum /ultima tebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000341</a> please fucking
search before asking will you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
Now as far as projectiles go, it shouldn't be too difficult to fire charged up capacitors from a blowgun or som e i m p r o v i s e d
breach loading toy.
I f y o u w a n t e d t o s t u n s o m e o n e, you probably wouldn't use a capacitor as these will only give you a sm all shock and that's it,
what you'd need is a stun gun projectile. Jaycor is developing such a thing to stun two-legged anim a l s :
<a href="http://www.jaycor.com /em e/sticky.htm " target="_blank">http://www.jaycor.com /eme/sticky.htm</a>
I'm sure this could be m initua rized, but I'm no expert on stunguns, maybe J can help you with this.
Btw, anyone tested the effects of capacitor shocks on electronic equipment?

ya i checked them bu t this topic is abit m ore broad...discusses firing the projectile and devising a weapon which wou ld charge
them before firing... thanx for the info though i appreciate it very much :)
J April 9th, 2002, 01:55 PM

W hat are your objectives? Do you want to kill or simply hurt/annoy? You won't stun someo ne with a cap, you'll either kill or
m omentarily hurt them d e p e n ding on how powerful the cap is. If you want to kill them, just use a gun. And you'll never make a
hom emade cap that's anything like as good as what's needed for this purpose.
T h e m a i n p r o b l e m I can see is turning a large cap into a good p rojectile. That's n ot really my field, perhaps som e o n e e l s e c a n
help with that. You'll also need pointy barbed e lectrodes that will penetrate clothing and stick into skin. This would take some
getting right, and I don't know how you'd safely test this.
That Jaycor link is very interesting, I didn't know anyone was m aking such a device.
A stungun co uld be m a d e t h a t s m all, but it would be difficult to im p r o v i s e . T h e m a i n p r o b l e m s are the pulse transfo rm e r a n d
capacitor. Both are usually bulky, but I've seen comm ercial 50kV pulse transformers that are only 20m m x 5 0 m m (http://
www.global-com p o n e n t s . c o m / m ag/triggers.pdf). Unfortu nately, they won't sell/give me any because I don't live in the U S. They
refered m e to the Chinese off-shoot, but the cunts didn 't even reply.
Stabilising such a projectile would be difficult. A bullet has uniform density. This device wouldn't, since there are lots of
individual com ponents inside. I think this would be your m ajor problem , rather than the circuitry. If it's for a 37m m calibre gun,
y o u c o u l d t a k e a p a r t a s m a l l c o m m ercial stungun, use a different battery (it doesn't have to last that long), and change the
PCB design to fit into your pro jectile. You could change som e of the com p o n e n t s a t t h e s a m e t i m e i f s m aller equiva lents were
available.
My advice is buy a taser! But if you're serious a bout building one, I'll help with any questions on th e electrical side.
Jack Ruby April 9th, 2002, 03:47 PM

Stablizing projectiles is easier to do than most think. The m o s t c o m m on ways are :
Fins(like on a dart or rocket)
Spin ning(Like a rifle does to a bullet)
Tassels(Creates resistance at the rear. To projectile takes the path of least resistent). If you don't under stand what I mean I
can draw a picture for you and post it.

The sticky shocker system is interestin g in the way it's fired, in that it uses a compressed gas-charged laun ch system . R e l a t e s
a little to the link on air weapons in that respect. I'd be really interested to know how they fire this if it's from a " s t a n d a r d
40m m" weapon.
nbk2000 April 9th, 2002, 08:39 PM
Alliant Techsystems Disorientation Device - 5.56 mm 1-(201)724-6053 A m m unition fired from an M16 rifle which upon im pact
inflicts an electric shock which potentially causes disorientation.
That's pretty tiny folks. And it'll only get sm alle r.

wow that pretty cool... cool crowd control device... it would rock to open fire on civilians with full auto and not actually harm
anyone...
FragmentedSanity April 20th, 2002, 03:39 PM

I think this would be an intere sting device to piss people off. for lethal results the cap would have to be fairly big and as said a
gun would be easier - things might be interesting if som e o n e h a d a p a c e m a k e r - w o u l d m ake yet another interestign m unition
for pnumatic cannon tho.
but I like the idea of frying electrics with it better. shot at a TV antenna there m ig h t b e e n u g h p o w e r t o c a u s e d a m a g e t o t h e
set.
and J - would you rea lly need barbed tips? dosent the cap discharg comp letley as soon as the contact is m a d e ?
vulture April 20th, 2002, 04:30 PM

How bout a dart fired from a crossbow with a cable to the high voltage de vice you're using? This wo uld ofcourse only work for
short distances, but then you won't have to worry about capacitor size.
Also, you can deliver m ultiple shocks once the target has been hit.
J April 20th, 2002, 05:11 PM

The speed at which the cap discharges is propo rtional to the resistance of the load. IIRC, the time it takes (seconds) to
discharge to ~70% of it's capacity is 0.69(RC ), where R = resistance of load (Ohm s ) a n d C = c a p a c i t a n c e ( F a r a d s ) . I m a y h a v e
got this sligh tly wrong, I can't be bothered to look it up.
But anyway, a cap fired at som eone will likely b ounce off quickly, especia lly when clothing com es into play. So they won't get
the full charge.
I've just had an idea for an im provised taser that doesn't use barbs. Instead, two velcro p ads could be used, with a conductor
behind each one. They would have to be held apart obviously. The disadvantage is that the target can easily pull th e
electrodes off, but if the shock's sufficiently powerful then they'd have to act quickly.
mrloud April 21st, 2002, 07:12 AM

I h a v e h e a r d of 2 parallel lasers a few centim etres apart being used to ionise the air between a gu n and the target. The idea is
that a high voltage is applied between the ionised paths the lasers create in order to 'zap' whatever you point the gun at. I
suspect any such device that was built was high ly experimental and didn't work properly. Not to me ntion the cost of tens of
thousands of dollars.
But it gives me an idea. Two supersoakers from the toy store could be m ounted together and filled with a conductive solution.
Apply a high voltage between the resevoirs and squirt the target with both guns. A pair of guns tha t shoot a thick stream of
water would be more effective in providing a go od electrical conn ection between the gun and the ta rget. It would pro bably still
only be any good over short d istances. Like a Kwik-E-Mart counter. It would also give you the elem ent of surprise in a hold up.
The victim, u pon seeing your Super-Soaker contraption with connecting wires and flashing lights, will either:
A) Fall down laughing or
B) Hand over the cash while thinking "W hat sort of twisted freak is this guy?!?!? I Better do what he says" o r
C) T ell you to "Fuck off and stop wasting my time!". In which case you ca n g i v e h i m a h o s i n g s o m ewhere sensitive to show h im
the error of his ways. Like in the face and neck.
W hen you're developing any sort of electrical weapon you are going to need som ething to test it on. Try the neighbours cat (or
dog if you are a cat p erson). If your weapon is designed to be fatal to the person o n t h e b u s i n e s s e n d , y o u m i g h t n e e d t o
invest in the time to go and steal some kids gerbils/guinea pigs and start breeding your own lab a nim als. But thats another
topic.
J April 21st, 2002, 07:26 AM

T h e m a i n p r o b l e m with that is that the water streams break up into droplets very quickly. You would need some kind of agent
a d d e d t o t h e water to prevent this. Any ideas?
And testing it on the cat is a bad idea, because they hate water anyway so you'll have no idea whether it's the current or water
p i s s i n g t h e m off :D
My choice of test animal would be a cow. They're big, so there's no chance of killing it (ele ctric shock device s a re used to
control them anyway - cattle p rods!), a nd you'd be able to tell if it was sim ply the water or the current by the way it m oved.
BrAiNFeVeR April 21st, 2002, 11:16 AM

I don't think this would work very well.
a few con's:
-water breaks down when high current flows through, thus extra interuption of the water beam
-water (or an y liquid for that m atter) tends to g et on your own hands too ...
8 0 % H 2 O + 10% H2SO4 + 10% plasticizer m ight do the trick.
Machiavelli April 21st, 2002, 07:17 PM

Feels like history repeating...
W ell, some time ago, people were discussing the subject of electrified water cannons, I believe the topic was called "death ray"
or som ething like tha t. W e l l p e o p l e h a d a lot unpractica l ideas, a lot of "this might work, I've seen this in a m ovie, this would
be kewl" kinda stuff. Then alo n g c a m e lil m ac with som e practical ideas and som e b a c k g r o u n d a n d s u d d e n l y t h e d i s c u s s i o n
stop p e d f o r s o m e s t r a n g e r e a s o n .
Anyway, I'll try to put together m y ideas from b ack then . T h e b a s i c i d e a c a m e f r o m Jaycor again, if som e o f y o u h a d r e a d
about the sticky shocker you should have noticed their other toy:
<a href="http://www.jaycor.com /em e/watcan.htm " target="_blank">http://www.jaycor.com /eme/watcan.htm </a>
"An electrified conductive fluid is ejected from a gun at high velo city, m aking contact with stationary or moving targe ts. The
single stream of fluid delivers a high-voltage pulse capable of delivering a shock even through thick protective cloth ing."
"The wireless stun gun delivers a high-pressure saline solution with additives to m i n i m i z e t h e b r e a k u p o f t h e b e a m into
droplets, thereby m a x i m i z i n g r a n g e . R a n g e s o f u p t o 2 0 f e e t h a ve been demonstrated, while ranges of up to 100 feet or m o r e
are believed to be feasible with improved nozzles and fluids."
"A high-volta ge electrical signal with low current is generated in a com pact electronic package with 9-volt batteries. T h e
im p e d a n c e o f the water stream is sufficiently lo w that it cannot b e relied on to lim it current to sure-safe levels; consequently
current-lim iting resistors are u sed to lim it currents to sure-safe levels. A single stream is used to d eliver the current. The return
path from the target is through the capacitive im p e d a n c e b e t w e e n t h e g u n a n d t h e target."
My suggestions:
-play around with a saturated NaCl solution and different thickeners (soluable starch, agar, gelatin, alginates, etc) whether you
can obtain a suitable liquid
-use a plastic tank system thats pressurized with eg a small com pressor and finish it up with an im provised m etallic nozzle,
m aybe a syringe needle to wh ich you can hook up a stu n g u n , t h e o t h e r p o l e o f t h e s t u n g u n g o e s t o g r o u n d
-post test results instead of m ore idea s, forumites tend to com e up with a lot of ideas but don't follow up o n t h e m
vulture April 22nd, 2002, 01:44 PM

There are m olecules which loa d up on static because of the friction with e achother. If you could fire them in a way they would
bounce alot against eachother, they would load up and discharge if they hit some thing.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Rearward-firing missile
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inferno April 14th, 2002, 05:21 AM

I TAKE NO RESPONISBILITY FOR ANYTHING ANYONE DOES WITH THIS INFO, AND ANYONE WHO USES IT FOR AN AGGRESSIVE PERSON IS A SICK AND TWISTED INDIVIDUAL
AND SHOULD BE COMMITTED IMMEDIATELY. IF YOU HURT/KILL YOURSELF MAKING THIS DONT BLAME ME, I TAKE NO RESPONIBILITY. THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES
ONLY.
(im paranoid)
Something i saw on the news recently made me think about a weapon that could have numerous uses. I wont go into them here, im sure youll figure them out.
In riots (this is where i got the idea) people often take cover behind cars, bins etc, when the mob starts throwing molotov cocktails, rocks, etc. This can include police. These
people are hard to hurt in any way, besides an accurate throw from a molotov cocktail or the like. Here is my idea to counter act this.
What inspired this idea, was a clip i saw from ireland a few days ago. It was a camera crew sheltered (with police) behind a car. A home-made rocket was fired about 4 metres
over their head and exploded with a flash behind them. While a lucky/well aimed shot might do "damage" to people behind things, its not feasible to fire 10 shots at people
hoping for a lucky shot.
So here is my idea. My simply taping shotgun shells to the front of a rocket, and adding tacks to the primers, you could have an effective impact sensitive weapon that could
be aimed at a hard surface behind a barricaded target, which would then fire the shells backwards. Im sure this idea, or one like it, has been conceived or listed before, but this
is just my idea of it.
The shells would be taped to the end of a D engine, with the shells taped/glued around the front, and the tacks taped on to the shells. When the tacks hit, it fires behind , with
a high likeliness of hitting the target/s. The only precaution would be to make sure you are in cover before the weapon hits, to avoid shooting yourself.
J April 14th, 2002, 05:46 AM

A high explosive warhead filled with BB's will do the same thing, and be a lot more powerful. A shotgun shell exploding on its own won't have much power beyond several
meters (I'd guess, I've never tested this out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ), unless you used a short barrel.

a slight [ i add slight ] adjustment may need to be made... the shottgun shells have that plastics cup wadding shite inside which holds all of the shots together as they are
thrown out of the barrel. Im not too sure how much distance these buggers have to travel until it actually splits open in the air and scatters the shots... but if you want to harm
someone behind something you would need to shoot the mongrel fairly close to the target area to be effective because acuracy is greatly decreased. The chance of tightly
grouped shots hitting the targets may not be as high compared to a shotshell which doesnt have the side bits on the plastic wadding. this way the shots are dispersed as soon
as they leave the shot, giving a wider field of damage and further more increasing your chance of hitting the target.
if i were to make such an improvised weapon i would try to make some kind of claymore device rather than use shotshells. i just get a feeling that a shotshell wouldnt do
enough damage.
A more ideal weapon in my opinion would be to create a delayed explosion through the means of shortening the burn time on the estes D engine... work out how much
powder be removed from the back in order to cover say 70 meters... that way as soon as 70 m is covered the powder has reached a heat sensative primary explosive which
then sets of your secondary High explosive... If the target is closer than the required distance fire the rocket at an angle... kinda like that pythagorarse theorum shite [sorry
bout spelling and language]
i got a question dude.... i dont know if you know this already BUT its very hard to get a hobby engine to fly horizontaly...they were designed for vertical flight... so if you want
to make a Surface to air your fine... but surface to surface will be a challenge... before you go making shottgun shell rockets i would try to work out this little problem
otherwise you might find that your rockets land 5 meters in front of you... with a shottgun shell aimed right at you !!! be carefull my friend :)
Anthony April 14th, 2002, 10:39 AM

If we're talking 70m, why not just a frag grenade? A stick grenade would be easier if you're having trouble covering the distance.
DBSP April 14th, 2002, 10:46 AM

Please forget the shotgun shell, it wont do shit, the shots will just drop out of the shell unless confined in a pipe, hmm maby a bit to heavy for a rocket to carry huh.
nbk2000 April 14th, 2002, 11:15 AM

I see two mods who've let this tripe post run on for too long.
End topic.
And dude, we don't do bullshit disclaimers here, alright?
This is just a rocket propelled variation on the "nutbuster" idea from the PMJB book.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > C annons
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Monkeyman666 S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2001, 01:06 AM

I a m in the process o f m a k i n g a s m a l l . 5 0 c a n n o n . I a m going to shape it a little in a m atal lathe m aking it more realistic. Has
a n y o n e o n h e r e e v e r m a d e o n e ? I a m w o n d e r i n g h o w m uch powder to use, It doesn't need to be able to hurl a ball 3 m iles.
Bein g it is a .50 caliber I am making it about 2 inches in diam eter. Its about a foot and a half long. I will be using a 1/2 inch
titanium drill bit in a drill press.
------------------
Monkeym an
Anthony September 2 nd, 2001, 08:50 PM

T h a t ' s g o i n g t o h a v e t o b e a d a m n l o n g drill bit...
Kdogg S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 01:17 AM

It is.
------------------
Monkeym an
SMA G 12B/E5 S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2001, 12:15 AM

Y o u m e n t i o n e d s h a p i n g t h e c a n n o n i n a l a t h e . W hy not drill the device in the lathe, assuring a m ore likely chance of a
concentric bo re.
Agent Blak S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2001, 10:49 AM

Let m e get this straig h t y o u a r e g o i n g t o m a k e a . 5 0 c a l cannon that is 2" in Diameter. so you will have a wall thickness of
.750 +/- .015. what type of metal are you going to use for this? High Carbon Steel, Mild, Cold rolled, hot rolled, Al, Bronze,
Brass...
W hat do you plan on using for a propellent.
------------------
A wise man once said :
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
EventHorizon S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2001, 09:46 PM

I k n o w s o m e one who made ju st a cannon, .50cal and all. I was an absolute m asterpeice!!!! He sca led it down from replica
c o n f e d e r a t e p l a n s h e ' d f o u n d s o m ewhere I think. Even painted it the rigth color and m a d e t h e s p o k e w h e e l s . T h e t h i n g w a s
gorgeous. Printed a nice group at 25yds too. Used FFFg powder and IIRC ~60grains. Its was a bronze barrel too btw.
------------------
-cha n c e f a v o r s a p r e p a r e d m i n d -
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Solid Fuel Rockets
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I dunno what section to put this under.... I.W or L.E ... anyways its in here so what does it matter...
what i want to find is a compolation of known solid fuels for rockets...
so far i know of Amonpulver, Estes rocket powder [unsure of what it actually is]
could anybody here please enlighten me on this subject... and yes this may have been discussed in some other msg board, but then hasnt half of the H.E , L.E and E.P sections
been over the same material... just a re-cap
my friend has made his own powders before but he simply refused to tell me how he made it... it worked fine... his rockets were quite impressive and the powder seemed to
be of a high standard.
Also... does anyone know what i could do to find out the height reached by the rocket at its apogee, and possibly determine velocities... is there some kind of small mechanism
i can put in the nozzle/head of the rocket to determine the height reached... if i can determine approx. values for this i can then work out velocity and all that shite... i wana
compile some work together with notes on powder types, velocities and heights obtained for particular powers in relation to different weights of the rocket etc etc... this way
everyone on here could determine what is a suitable fuel for a solid fuel rocket for their particular experiments.
Any information regarding powder compositions or height measuring devices will be greatly appreciated. NOTE - i have some kind of ancient device to determine the height, but
im not too sure on accuracy. Its a triangle shaped thing which sits on the ground and yer does something... more on that later... :( :confused: <img border="0" title=""
[ April 16, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Azazel ]
Zambosan April 16th, 2002, 01:58 PM

You can buy all sorts of data acquisition boards for high-power rocketry, including altimeters, accelerometers, and even miniature cameras. Search around for rocketry club
pages & suppliers. The device you're referring to is most likely a sextant. You can use it to determine the angle between the horizon and the apogee of the rocket. You then
make the assumption that the rocket went straight up (or you figure in the estimated drift), and use the angle and the distance between you and the launch site to determine
the vertical distance: height = (distance to site * tan(angle of inclination). Crude, but it works pretty well when you have decent distances involved, as that tends to minimize
the % impact of any error.

I hate to be petulant, but there is so much information on rocketry on the web - sooooooo much.
Also, you need to kick this "friend" up the arse - how does he expect you to have rocket duels if you can't get one to work?
To measure the height, you need some geometry (it's a lot easier). HAve a friend 500m away measure the angle the rocket reaches and it should be simple to work out the
height! :p
xoo1246 April 16th, 2002, 02:09 PM

If you know the angle from your rocket to the ground and the distance between where you measure the angle to the launch site you could calculate the aprox. height(if the
rocket flies straight up).
This is only one of the sites out there: <a href="http://nakka-rocketry.net/" target="_blank">http://nakka-rocketry.net/</a>
Search and you'll find hundred of other good pages, covering everything you ever wanted to know.
Edit: You post too fast for me!
[ April 16, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

I heard that S=1/2AT squared (don't know how to make the little exponents). S=Altitude, A=32 (gravity), and T= the time it took to fall. The fall time is, of course, if you
don't have a parachute and begins at the apogee. So lets say I launched one that fell for 17 seconds. 17 squared = 289, times 32 = 9248, divided by 2 = 4624. This is in feet
by the way. 5280 feet in a mile. And you can order an altimeter from <a href="http://www.pyrotek.org" target="_blank">www.pyrotek.org</a> for 90 USD's. It will let you
seclect the ejection delay in incriments of 4 seconds (I think) and up to 12 seconds. Sounds fancy, but before I get one I will have to prove to myself that I have a reliable
parachute (90 dollars is a lot to me)! Also, to The entire Forum, my cousin has recently bought the HRP guide thing from Pyrotek.
HIGH POWER ROCKETRY - COMBO PACK
You get a beautifully printed fully illustrated 160 page book which includes lots of photos. You receive a video so you can see the motors being cast and assembled right before
your eyes!
"TEST SHOTS, HIGH POWERED LAUNCHES - record altitude flights by amateurs. The tape is awesome! Also included is a software package for your computer that has
everything you ever wanted to know about rockets - propellant formulas, how to design your own motors from scratch, figure out center of gravity, static and dynamic centers
of pressure that will insure your rockets will fly straight - So much included we can't list it all here. If your not into designing things by yourself don't worry many proven motors
and model rockets designs are included in the book - so you know they'll work the first time."
"ROCKET ALTIMITER (COMPLETED UNIT)

User can set to fire main parachute at apogee (peak altitude
User can set to fire a small drogue chute at apogee with a backup if necessary
User can set to fire main chute at apogee with a backup if necessary
User programmable Mach flight inhibit timer (switch selectable to 4, 8 and 12 second delays)
Reports peak altitude - accurate to the foot upon recovery
Ejection charge continuity verification before flight
Igniter test mode to pre-test and pre-fire on ground before flight
Operational status LED indicator - lets you know which mode the altimeter is set for
Surface mounted parts on a preprinted circuit board - very compact - ready to install in your rocket. All you need is a 9 volt battery and electric igniter. Ship wt.1 lbs."
70 USD's, sounds worth it. Anyway, I will be there in a little over a month so I can burn the CD, copy the tape and I don't know what do do with the book except read it. And I
have seen a rocket at my school where the nosecone has a little lump in it and it had a camera in there. Really cool. I can't remember the name now so I will tell you
tomorrow. I think it had an X in it. Well good luck and I am sure you know this but never use chlorates (well if you wanna keep your launch rod/pad <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Bye.
[ April 16, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
BoB- April 17th, 2002, 03:19 AM

You can easilly predict the max altitude of your rocket, but it will take sophisticated measuring equipment to measure the exact area of your rocket at all points, so instead,
grab a fat straw, and a protractor.
This is probably what the people above are talking about.
Attach the straw to the top of the protractor with lots of tape, try to make it as straight and paralell with the protractor as possible.
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg</a>

(copy and paste link)
Place a 20cm string through a hole just like in the picture, tie it to itself then tape the string to the back of the protractor. If theres no hole, just lay the string flat against the
protractor (even with 90deg.) and try to tape it as neatly as possible. At the other end of the string tie a washer of a decent size (I used 1/2") then tape the washer to the
string securely.
If you intend to use a high powered rocket, and are assuming it will go very high, you could also attach the protractor to a zoom lens from a camera, or a rifle scope, or a
monocle.
First measure the baseline distance, this is the distance between the person holding the altitude measuring device, and the launcher.
Now Follow a test rocket of the exact same proportions/weight up into the sky as its launched, keeping the rockets nose sighted in the straw. When its about to flip over, it has
reached its peak altitude, hold the string against the protractor exactly where it is at this moment, record this angle, then subtract from 90deg.
Okay, now that you've lauched the rocket, and recorded its angualr ditance (the protractor deal), and you know the baseline distance, you're ready to calculate its height.
Height = B x TAD
Or Height = Baseline x tangent of angular distance
Example;
Baseline = 200ft
Angular distance = 70deg.
tangent of 70deg. = 2.75
So;
height = B x TAD, or heigth equals 200ft. x 2.75
height = 550ft.
To find the tangent of angular distance, use a calculater, or use this plagarized graph from Estes;
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/tabletang.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/tabletang.jpg</
a>
So in other words, assuming you have picture perfect 90deg. flight, and you are standing 200ft. away, the distance from the launcher to the rocket, is its height, and you
observing this rocket from a baseline of 200ft. forms a triangle of sight, which can be measured.
And since Velocity = Acceleration/distance traveled you can also determine the speed of the rocket fairly easilly.
[ April 17, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

that device rules...thanx guys :)

Here, this looks good. <a href="http://www.hpr.org.uk/science/qref.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hpr.org.uk/science/qref.htm</a>
HOOPS123 April 21st, 2002, 02:29 PM

Estes Rocket fuel is pressed BP. My friends and I are working on a rocket as we speak. After doing quite a few burn rate tests with KN03 and NaN03 oxidisers we found that a
1-1-1 (KN03/Sucrose/Sulfur) burns fastest for KN03 based and a 1-2 (NaN03/Sucrose) burns fastest for NaN03 based. Out of the two the 1-2 NaN03 based burnt the fastest.
Hopefully in a few days we can finish a rocket so I can post some results.
EP April 21st, 2002, 03:23 PM

Here is a large list of pyrotechnic rocket comps:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/extremepyro2/compoDB.html#chapter1" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/extremepyro2/compoDB.html#chapter1</a>
HOOPS123 April 24th, 2002, 11:24 PM

I just finished the engine of my rocket. Its 1-2 NaN03/Sucrose. I mixed it with 91% alchohol and fit it into a 1'' Diameter by 1' long pvc pipe. Im planning on just attaching the
wings to the engine the first time, just because im testing more the mixure than the Design. The core is 3/16 ''.
Photo(s) *More in the next few days*

<a href="http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=35959" target="_blank">http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?
selected=35959</a>
UPDATE: Ive uploaded the final product. For scale Ive placed a quarter in most of the pictures. The other picture is of my launch equipment.
[ April 26, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: HOOPS123 ]
randomquestion May 22nd, 2002, 11:33 PM

The pics look extremely similar to what im making -- I look forward to seeing the rest of the pictures -- damn I wish I had a digital camera...
xoo1246 May 25th, 2002, 04:55 AM

I'm doing some testing with BP rockets currently, thinking of moving on to some Ammonium perchlorate/PVC/Al rockets later.
HOOPS123 May 25th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Today I bought a little cheap stove so I can use the Nakka Method. The other method failed terribly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Sparky May 25th, 2002, 10:41 PM

When you guys make rockets you might want to try spinning ones. They are called "stinger missiles". They are like a normal rocket motor but usually shorter. They have an
extra nozzle in the side of the rocket to make it spin and provide stability. They go very straight and far. Dan Williams has a good procedure for making them on his site. I
dreamt I used rammed ball milled meal powder added to KNO3/sucrose as the grain and it worked very well. I don't like using melted sucrose/kno3 because it goes bad
quickly and is hard to pour into small rockets. Even kno3/dextrose (dextrose is used in beer making) is hard to pour and burns slower but it does keep better.
As for rocket fuels, the space shuttle uses ammonium perchlorate/aluminum and something -butadine (polyisobutadine?) as a binder. When I dream of making rammed black
powder rockets, I have only had success with them without nozzles and of course with a core. There are zinc sulfur rockets that some people like. Some people even make H3
rockets (potassium perchlorate and charcoal I think)! Look for the "comp-db.html" that some people have on their sites (I think practical pyrotechnics has it). I think it was
Noltair who did some great work on smokless powder rockets.
Try signing up at passfire, if you search google in rec.pyrotechnics then you will be able to find information for a guest account. It has a number of formulas for drivers and I
think rockets too.
[ May 25, 2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Sparky ]
xoo1246 May 26th, 2002, 05:25 AM

Since no-one seems to notice my post in "rockets", I'll post it here instead:
I have been experimenting with small BP rockets for a while.

Core burners in plastic pipe with PVC nozzles.
Since I have access to ammonium perchlorate(AP in this post) I'm planing to test a AP/Al/PVC engine when I get my ball mill and some milling media.
Dhzugasvili: When you casted your engines, how do you avoid bubbles in the cast?
Here is some pictures of a protype nozzle, it should be longer and maybe contain some internal steel parts in the core to avoid too heavy nozzle erosion. Maybe one could add
Al (or dry, milled clay powder) to the PVC in the nozzle to make it more heat tolerant, what do you think?
Here are the pictures:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle01.jpg</a>
10fingers May 28th, 2002, 11:11 PM

Has anyone got a hold of the formula for the HTPB/ammonium nitrate rocket motors that Cricket mentioned above?
I've got the ingredients but I need the formula. If anyone has it I would appreciate it they would post the info. Thanx
Cricket May 29th, 2002, 06:02 PM

I can call my cousin and ask what all the book and CD says. He is never home, but I can get to him somehow. I may also need to include the way to make it, like how to mix
it all up. I'll see what I can do.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > pirotechman
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pirotechman September 2 nd, 2001, 05:35 PM

Sehen Sie sich m eine W a f e :
http://republika.pl/pirotechm an/film /sam ochod.avi
Auf diesem Film schiese ich in Auto. Ich bin Diplom insprengingenieur. Ich wohne in Polen.
Mit freundlichen Grussen. AREK
http://pirotechman.republika.pl
kingspaz September 2 nd, 2001, 05:57 PM

FUCK OFF!! if you can 't speak english why post in an english speaking forum ?
Rhadon September 2 nd, 2001, 07:53 PM

I will translate for you what pirotechma n said:
-------
This is my weapon:
http://republika.pl/pirotechm an/film /sam ochod.avi
In this clip I'm shooting a car.
About m yself: I'm a q u a l i f i e d e x p l o s i v e s e n g i n e e r .
Greets, AR EK
http://pirotechman.republika.pl/
-------
P l e a s e d o n ' t f l a m e h i m anym ore. He didn't know that foreign languages aren't allowed on The Forum , and he didn't
understand that you told him to stop it. I sent him a m ail, so this problem s h o u l d b e s o l v e d . T h a n k y o u .
Anthony September 2 nd, 2001, 08:18 PM

Thankyou Rhadon
I m ust agree, the rules need updating to include such matters a s English only. The guy wasn't to know.
kingspaz September 2 nd, 2001, 08:35 PM

i see now. sorry pirotechman i didn't realise you couldn't speak any english at all. thanks for the video though.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Me is back!
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Igenx April 18th, 2002, 01:38 PM

Hey all... Know it's be en a while since I posted (since before the move) but I'm back and kicking. My sched u l e h a s b e e n a
b i t c h t h i s s e m e s t e r , t o o m a n y c l a s s e s a n d d i s c u s s i o n b o a r d s f o r o n e o f m y c l a s s e s . D o h a ve two questions to ask that have
come up since I was here last. How long of a le ngth of pipe (1 1/4 in) is needed to m a k e t h e b a r r e l s l e e v e o n a S t e n M k I I I ?
Nothing I've seen for the Mk III has that piece of info a nd I wan t t o g e t t h e r i g h t l e n g t h . A l s o d o e s a n y o n e h a v e a g o o d p l a c e
to find plans for silencers? I rebuilt a nice old rife from the Korean war (7 . 6 2 x 5 4 M 1 ) b u t t h e t h i n g s o u n d s l i k e a d a m n c a n n o n
since I shortened the barrel. Also not quite sure how I'd b e a b l e t o m ount a silencer if I chose to, can't thread the b arrel so
best I would be able to do is a pressure sleeve clam ped on it.

welcom e back igenx... i have a CD com piled with all kinds of files i have collected on vario us topics related to things spoken of
in the forum . I have a section on this CD of m ine based on silencers/suppresors ... if you want i can em ail it to you...
m m m m m m is that ok ? I also have sten plans... not too sure if they have what you want but i can send u those too... Its in
pdf form at...
:)
Igenx April 19th, 2002, 02:19 PM

k... C reated an accou nt to get stuff fro m here sent to.
Should be safe to use, didn't require a ny other email to s e t u p a n d I h a d m y add ress run through a proxy to set it up. Plus a
few m ore things.... :)
a u t o 3 4 4 1 7 8 @ h u s h m ail.com
I already have the usual copy of Sten plans running aro u n d o n t h e n e t . M k I I n o t M k I I I . I p i c k e d u p t h e p a r t s o n t h e c h e a p
and figured I'd play around with them . Just need the overall length of the sleeve, template for the cuts would be nice to but I
d o h a v e t h e m achinists diagrams. Just don't know m uch about them .
Definitely want the silencer stuff.
BoB- April 20th, 2002, 02:47 AM

O n " m y f r i e n d s " d e s i g n , t h e s l e e v e i s t h e s a m e length as the barell.

ok dude i sent u the silencer stuff
i did nt send u the Sten pdf tho because you probably already have it. enjoy the reading m aterial d u d e : )

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Possible airgun conversion
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HMTD Factory September 2nd, 2001, 05:35 PM

There was this thing called "caseless .22" developed and maketed(now discontinued) by Daisy(the airgun company). I saw a few brick still in wrap in a gun show last year,
didn't buy something I don't know yet could not examine closely(and it is pricy too).
The caseless .22 is the only commercial caseless ammo ever marketed. The caseless .22 has no priming compound but it is fired in a special airgun(now discontinued) that uses
a spring piston; the piston compresses and heats up the air, the air shoot through a tiny hole in the chamber, ignites the propellant.
The caseless ammo is easy to improvise (smokeless, acetone, lead balls, doesn't need to be .22cal). Without a traditional mechanical firing system, there is less modification to
worry about.
IMO the gun can be converted with a lathe : a recess for cartridge groove, a chamber reaming job, and one or more air channel(s) on the chamber wall.

But surely you could just use a smokeless blank instead, just make the hole at the breech wide enough to take one and then attatch a .22 cal (or whatever) ball to it, then
mount a firing pin system to the air port of the airgun, then when the piston was released, the compressed air would push the pin forwards quickly enough to hit the primer,
setting it off. However, you'd have to have some small holes to let air leak out, so that the piston wouldn't have too great a bounce.
Anthony September 2nd, 2001, 08:23 PM

The beauty of using caseless ammo is that the gun requires no modification. Which means less work and also won't arouse suspicion if viewed/handled by your average cop
(person to most likely catch you using it, or if it's found in your home during a search).
Nice idea, just gel some NC with acetone and press it into the skirt of the pellet.
twinkle September 3rd, 2001, 05:27 AM

I assume that the compression of such a special airgun is probably higher then a normal airgun to ignite this caseless ammo
but what you could do is adding some drops of ether into the "air chamber" long ago they sold special ether "injectors" sort of hypodermic syringe which you could attached to
the airgun . It let your airgun shoots almost as hard as a normal .22 only the lifetime of the gun is shortened while you burn the oil as well in the chamber(cylinder) I think that
it would certainly work to ignite some ammo in the barrel but I think that you have to reinforce the barrel to for this.( also in the past the tiny vent whole of he chamber to the
barrel was in a straight line nowadays this tiny vent whole is in an angle from the barrel to the chamber so putting an firing pin through it won't work.)
what also might be of interest is they sell special airgun ammo which consist of a hard steel ball which is in a plastic"shell" they are sold in .17(4.5 ) as well as .22 (5.5) nice
for armor piercing ammo
zaibatsu September 3rd, 2001, 03:47 PM

Adding some kinds of oil INTO the compression chamber (or whatever its called) can result in detonation, or so I am told, which gives enough energy to actually re cock the
rifle, bends out the compression chamber, and fucks up the main spring. However, dieseling happens in practically EVERY air rifle, and adding more oil may just result in a
badly firing rifle, whats power without accuracy?
Pellets start moving before the piston has finished its stroke, this may be something to think of. You can get an oil dropper from companies such as Maplin and RS Electronics
that could also be used. The airgun ammo you are talking about (twinkle) is known in the UK as Champion Fireball, and known to ricochet. Try Dynamics, they are made of a
tin alloy, and as such are harder than lead, but lots of people don't like them. I do understand your point though anthony, but some coppers don't even know that theres a
power limit for airguns...
Gotta add that much of what I've posted comes from a book...
[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited September 03, 2001).]
twinkle September 3rd, 2001, 04:50 PM

the "ether injector" I was speaking of was a factory made thing , but it is all long ago and in those days there was no limit to air-rifle power you even had these pump-up guns
which were very powerful when you used the 12 strokes it could pump but I agree the newer guns has limited power and yes you can damage (or better will damage) an
airgun in this way ,I also agree with you that this steel ammo can ricochet they are very light of weight I have not thought of that . but one could made a sabot with a heavier
(longer) steel "slug" this way wit ha plastic coating
era5or September 3rd, 2001, 06:01 PM

The factory was Weihrauch/Beeman, the rifle was called HW35 with Barakuda System. The modification was made by Barakuda-Gesellschaft Hamburg.
The HW "Barakuda" gun used small glass ampules of ether which were crushed
into the auxiliary cyliner. Pretty safe. The HW "Barakuda" pellet,
sold also as a Beeman under a different name, was developed to handle
the high energy of this gun.
It is basically a common spring-piston gun with
the add-on chamber.
[This message has been edited by era5or (edited September 03, 2001).]
zaibatsu September 3rd, 2001, 06:29 PM

Ah, the effects I was describing were on a normal rifle, not built to operate in that matter. Anyway, could be interesting, but homemade methods of production seem pointless
if shot at a long range, I doubt they'd be accurate enough. But close range work could be promising, all depends on how accurate you can make them.

A normal spring/piston will certainly ignite the NC on a normal firing cycle - it will also ignite all but high temperature lubricants.
A small amount of dieseling is essential for a springer to fire properly - they won't work properly in an inert atmosphere.
A gun dieseling excessively tends to be innacurate and damages the seals.
A fixed barrel underlever gun may be best for such a conversion as there is no danger of the breach flying open.
twinkle September 4th, 2001, 10:28 AM

Era5or is right about the factory I know mine was also Weihrauch . In that time you only had normal common oil for lubricating but nowadays you also have teflon lubrication
and this can hold temperatures up to 300 C fo short times so maybe when a normal airgun is lubricated with teflon this can be done to though a special designed gun for it
would be better
There isnt a maximun power level for airguns in the US, the manufactuers simply changed the recommended amount of pumps to 10. I have pumped my Daisy rifle 23 times,
and the pointed feild pellet went completly through my pellet trap.
HMTD Factory September 4th, 2001, 11:11 PM

Looks like I have to give serious thoughts about going to a deer hunt with a Daisy pump riflehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

They used to have rifles in the region of 1000ftlb which were pumped thousands of times (by the servants of course http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif) and
they would hunt boar with that. Gary (?) Barnes does high power large calibre air rifles in the US, only in the region of around 500ftlb, and PCP. In britain you're talking about
Stalker rifles, up to around 300ftlb, and about 6 shots per charge. Some people use the 100ftlb models for shooting foxes.
It'd be better for consisitency if airgun manufacturers in the US made a pressure release valve, so that at a certain pressure it wouldn't hold anymore air. Then, you could make
sure that you didn't put any more air in.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

Over-pumping your rifle can get unreal velocity, not to be too graphic here, but I've hunted using this, and the pellet bore a hole completly through a rabbits head, killing it
almost instantly.
I was using pointed feild game pellets.

Hehe, you shouldn't use pointed pellets either, if they are pointed sharply then it is easily damaged, and ones that aren't pointed sharply have little over ones that are domed.
At the higher velocities, and at reasonably close range, try hollow points, supposed to expand fairly well at high power and close range. Airgun pellets are very interesting
things... But whatever works

The only thing with over pumping a rifle that much is one time you might do it and the seals will blow and you'll be "aw shucks!"http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif
If the pellet went straight through the rabbit's head then some of it's energy was wasted. Only if the target (wabbit) stops the pellet is all it's energy utilised and maximum
damage done. For this you want pellets that expand, such as Zaibatsu said, hollow points or even the nice cheap flat heads which tend to deliver the largest shock damage
which makes things drop stone dead even if not hit in the head.
Which model is your Daisy rifle? I think many of them are available over here, might make a nice plinking gun.

I dont really mind the risk of blowing the seals because the rifle was bought "spur of the moment" because it was only $40.00
heres a pic:
http://www.airgunstore.com/RIFLES/DMOD856.JPG
I use feild pellets because of there increased penetration in this cheap ass gun, its M/V being 650fps.

I have that same pellet gun, I took the side panel off and removed the safety and lubricated all the internals woth a syringe and have it in good working order and I can get it
to shoot after many pumps. I once pumped it to 65 pumps, I got 2 shots 1 strong 1 weak so there is a limit to the power, possibly a flow restrictor, maybee it could be
removed if you knew what you were doing.

I take it the MV is 650fps at 10 pumps? If you're pumping it 20 odd times then it'll likely be a lot higherhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
PYRO500, I don't think it's a flow restrictor, more an inherent flow restriction as only so much air can escape in the time the valve stays open. A stronger hammer spring/
heavier hammer may help but you'll reach a point where to get any more MV you'd need a longer barrel.

I could probably post some basic figures for air reservoir volume against pressure that will tell ou (roughly) what ftlb it should be doing if you all want, although this varies from
gun to gun obviously. 650fps in .22 (if its .22) is pretty crap for a US airgun, if it was doing about 1000fps that'd be a lot nicer http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised explosives
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Wicked April 30th, 2002, 04:20 PM

i got a few good ideas about a week ago, im no chemist, im only fourteen, but im learning and im signed up for a basic chemistry class already. well here it is.
1) a low puddy exploseive idea i had was mixing plaster of paris and some gasoline and maybe some sort of oxidiser or some solid form of an easyly ignited metal/fuse (al?)
2) figured out a good way to grind down al, at the cost of a blender:
mix sand and al in a blender and add a bit of water, it would be best if the sand ratio was about 1(sand):3(al), just turn it on for along while then get a thick piece of paper and
a strong magnet to seperate the al from the sand, and when its collected, just pull the magnet away from the paper and have it over something to collect the falling al :cool:
well thats sorta it right now, i havent really been thinking much lately, just bummin around. later.
megalomania April 30th, 2002, 05:00 PM

Well it's nice to see your thinking of new ideas, but I have to point out flaws... First of all, I don't see how gasoline and plaster of paris would be explosive, or even flammable. I
may be wrong on that as I have never done it or seen it done, but it dosn't feel right. Second, aluminum is not magnetic, so you cannot seperate it from sand that way. You will
however get the bits of blade that wear off from the blender.
[ April 30, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]

just read your post mega, for some reason the electro magnet i have picked up the al, it was a nice fine mesh too

forgot to add:
the gasoline if its in a higher ratio than the plaster should beable to create an epoxy of some sort, so flamable, maybe not exploseive without other chems, but i just came up
with the idea w ithout testing it, the al in the mix would help it burn i bet, and it would probobly make it easyer to ignite, if its in high count, i dunno, but it seems that it might
work if mixed right,,,,,,, ill get backto you on it w hen i find some shit.
Snipie April 30th, 2002, 06:09 PM

I dont think that your magnet is picking up any Al.
The permeability of Al is 1.000021 (paramagnetic), so in theory it IS possible to pick up Al with a magnet, only the magnet w ould be very very strong, much more stronger than
you have.
If I recall right, a couple of years ago they let water drips fly with such strong magnets (permeability of water is 0.999910)

it is al, because ive been sifting through it and shit, and theres no metalic shit in there at all, and the magnet i have can lift about 1-2 tons if i w ould beable to get the power for
it, but i cant. its industrial :) but neways, seeing as you guys dont think thats al that its picking up, im taking and looking at a bunch of shit under a microscope and such, its
sorta hard to see since its wet, but in the parts that are not w et i see no AL, i see some coper, but thats from the little nub in the blender. im sure that theres gotta be some gay
reason that my magnet is picking it up when it shouldnt be then, so im going to try to seperate it as much as i can, but i have not much to work with, seeing as im just a kid.
im thinking of talking to danny, im also w ondering about some other sort of stuff that can grind dow n the al (in replacement of the sand), something that w ould be easyer
filtered out, w ether it be coffee filter or magnet, or even chemicly, :( i know its al though, but i haveto be sure, because it doesnt make sence by w hat you said. i checked the
blades of the blender, theyre in pretty good shape to tell u the truth. anyone know a good w ay to get some mg(magnesium), or where to get it :confused: ? gunna fiddle with
that. im thinking of paying a visit to the schools science lab "after hours". ive also cometo notice that smoke alarms use some Am(americium {did i spell that right?}), i bet i
could play around with that provided i can get lead gloves and vests and such, no ideas what id do w ith it though. anyone else got any good ideas for a bit of fun? its gotta be
pretty easy to get the stuff for it though, cuz like i said, im just a kid.

I got my Magnesium on Saturday from an outdoors store in the local mall. It was sold as "Coghlan's Magnesium Fire Starter". It comes in about a 1"x3"x1/2" block. There is a
thin layer of (something) over it to protect the block itself from flames. But this is easily sanded off.
I've spent a few days sanding this bastard down with 40 grit sandpaper, and it's a serious task. I don't have any power tools, unfortunately...atleast none capable of sanding.
Therefore, I'm left to do this by task. The 40 grit sandpaper is very nice though, it gets the Mg down to a very fine pow der. Fine powders are good, right?
I'm still sanding it dow n though, I'm about a quarter through the block. It's doing a good job, but it's slow as hell...I'm sure there has to be a better way of doing this.
Americium in Smoke detectors... That reminds me of an article I read in Readers Digest a while back concerning the "Nuclear Boyscout". This guy managed to get U-235 and
some other Nuclear crap with his knowledge of chemistry. He was going to build a Nuclear Reactor in his backyard (and had actually started) when his Geiger Counter started
recording high radiation several blocks aw ay, which w as harzardous to his neighbors. So he decided to dismantle the reactor and bury the parts in the desert. However, the
police caught him stealing tires (i don't know what for), they searched his car and found a tool box w ith a Nuclear symbol on it. Thinking it w as an Atom Bomb, they called a
HazMat team and they took all his nuclear toys.
kingspaz April 30th, 2002, 07:02 PM

who the hells danny?!
hmmm....i can't see anyway that that would be aluminium...maybe w hat you added to the blender wasn;t aluminium. it could have been steel, nickel, or alloys containging
them. i think the best way to grind aluminium, not speaking from experience as i have little use for Al, is to grind up a piece of Al w ith a file, collect the filings then ballmill that.
also a similar method by placing pieces of Al foil in a coffee grinder and grinding it to a coarse powder then ballmilling that. basically a ballmill is a tube w ith some lead balls in
the bottom. the tube is attached to a motor to turn it round very fast. if you add something to the tube it will mix w ith the balls and the balls will bash it up and grind it dow n to
a finer pow der. this is the only way to get good quality Al without buying it. i've made this sound simpler than it is but you'll get the idea since your willing to learn. also why not
just use petrol alone? it would surely burn much better. try to avoid contact w ith petrol since its 2% benzene which is carcinogenic (cancer causing). if you want an incedary add
lots and lots of polystyrene (stryofoam in american <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src= "wink.gif" /> ) to the petrol. keep adding it until no more w ill gel with it. you
will be left with a highly flammable, long burning syrup. makes a good first project - the fun pyro without the risks!
good luck!
oh yer, its never a bit of fun. thats how you get burnt (pardon the pun). treat this hobby seriously and you will be rewarded. if its treated as a bit of fun and nothing more you
are likely to get busted or lose limbs or get permanently disfigured in some way. if your not sure what something will do when you mix it do it in a VERY small amount (like half
a pea sized) and w ear some safety goggles.
also cleanliness is important. keep all chemicals pure, keep work areas tidy and un cluttered. and most of all, read the archives here asw ell as current posts. there is an almost
infinate amount of information here! the more you learn the more you will be rew arded.
edit: never ever play with radioactive shit. its cancer in a can! although the radiation sources used in smoke alarms are very low level alpha sources. this is the most ionising
radiation and hence the most damaging. it is also how ever the most easily protected against due to its large particle size. paper for example can stop it.
thats what my point was! americium is a gamma source only i think. releases gamma rays as its nucleas reorganises. half life of around 6hrs or somthing. (can;t find my physics
book at the moment!)
[ April 30, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
J April 30th, 2002, 07:19 PM

Plaster of Paris is Calcium Sulphate. It is an oxidizer at very high temperatures, there is a paper floating around on the 'net detailing its experimental use in flash, along with
other Sulphates. It can be used in Thermit instead of Iron Oxide, I believe NBK made a post about this way back.
But I think it's safe to assume your mixture won't explode, and the CaSO4 w on't perform as an oxidizer.
You'll ruin your blender doing that. Far better to search for the posts that have been made about grinding Al in a blender for the correct w ay of doing it. If you had a ball mill,
running it for many days on end with sand/abrasive grit and Al foil might work. If you used course grit, you could sieve out the Al.
And don't ask people for ideas for 'fun', that doesn't exactly inspire confidence. If you don't take a professional approach to this hobby, you'll kill or injure yourself eventually.
Celtick April 30th, 2002, 07:27 PM

I have a dutch article about David Hahn, He used Americum-241 and thorium-232 to build his ow n Nuclear reactor at the age of 17 :D
I found this article from Harper's Magazine witch is almost the same as mine <a href="http://ww w.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/print.jhtml"
target= "_blank">http://w ww.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/print.jhtml< /a>

dude: (Learning == fun;while fun = doing stupid shit i shouldnt be doing at my age)
i know to be carefull, one of my friends went boom in a fireball playing w ith some AP, :(. neways, in responce: danny == a friend whos a chemist who helps me out :)
anyways, thanks for the input, but neways, i looked at it closer and took the mesh to danny, its not pure al, damnit. :mad: heh. anyways, just on a totally off-subject mater:
why hasnt roguesci gotten an ircd yet? i think if you guys set up an ircd that would be pretty cool for real-time idea exchangeing :)

ive been trying to get saltpeter for aw ile, and i just heard from a friend, that sounds mentaly retarded, that u can pee in a w ooden cup or something and let it sit out, then the
scrapeings on the cup u purify somehow and thats as much as he told me, is he on crack? :p
0EZ0 April 30th, 2002, 10:59 PM

Hehehehe. Sounds like you need to read up a bit mate. Hit the search button at either the top or the bottom of the page and type in KNO3 or Potassium Nitrate, or in your case
Saltpeter. You will find a plentifull supply of information there from the search results.
If you did not find what you were looking for then that is the time to post your question.

i get a 403 on search dude, i have for months, rofl.
0EZ0 April 30th, 2002, 11:53 PM

Ok then. Well your 'friend' is tripping or has read too many of those stupid kewl crapbooks that are floating around on the internet. :rolleyes:
If you want KNO3 then look up the farm supply stores near you and see what they sell. If you find it, it is sold as a fertilizer packaged in 50kg bags. I would be suprised if you
did not find KNO3 there at all. Also it can be found in Garden supplies stores as the same thing.
Another interesting place to get it is at a high school science lab.

Brings back memories. For basic Chem in science we catylised a solution of lead nitrate and potassium dichromate w ith Hydrochloric Acid(HCl), and ended up w ith a precipitate
of Potassium Nitrate. Hehehe. The Grin on my face :D .
Usually synthesising KNO3 is not w orth the effort, it is obtained much more cheaply as the fertilizer.
Anyway hope it helps you on your road to finding some KNO3

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
nbk2000 May 1st, 2002, 12:11 AM

Wicked, you're spelling sucks. Learn to capitalize the letter "i" when referring to yourself. As in "I need to learn to spell properly.".
It w ould also be advisable to occassionaly add a paragraph in you replies. I do not enjoy having to plow through 12 sentences nonstop.
Did I mention spelling? :mad:
Since the others haven't seen fit to delete you, I'll go with the group opinion and let you stay.
But work on the grammer...PLEASE! :rolleyes:

Sorry NBK, I'm used to IRCing, so I dont worry about spelling and such, as when your typeing 60-120 words per minute you tend to miss the shift key anyw ays on this laptop.
:( I'll try to make it better spelling and such. see, I can type < img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> and yeah, I figured my friend was on crack when he heard
that. This morning I was cooking some bacon for breakfest(breakfast? hrmz.) and I took a shit, I walked out and there was a greese fire, to get to the point, I looked around for
something to put it out with, seeing as we didnt have a fire extinquisher(argh, atrotious spelling right there.), I grabbed a can of "Resolve", a foaming carpet cleaner, seeing as
there w as a 50/50 chance it was/w asn't flamable. It w as killer affective, spread out too, so I've been experimenting with it, and it doesnt burn unless at very high tempretures.
:D
megalomania May 1st, 2002, 03:08 PM

We have come to a consensus that real time chat may not be protected free speech, ie it can incriminate people. Therefore I do not support it. I also have no desire to chat
myself, so that's one more reason for me not to bother :)
Hmm, that quip about my search engine got me scared for a second... anyw ay, I got 42 results for potassium nitrate, so it works for me. :p

mega: my ip block maybe banned, check the hosts.deny in /etc/ if that doesnt work, my routers being a fag and I gotta fix it again
Wicked May 2nd, 2002, 07:20 PM

Ok, tw o things I have noticed.
1) I've been playing with that resolve shit, I made an adapter to use 9 at once, and found out that theres hydrogen bubbles in there, bummer. If you use too much of it, or if
the bubbles pop at an extreme rate, it will cause a worse fire, I covered a five foot area of flameing gasoline, and it put it out, I did the same area again with a thing of
paintthinner, and it made the bubbles go away too fast, and it made a big ass fireball.
2) In responce to mega, IRC logs arent idmicible in court, federal or otherwise. And since its a private server, you can put a disclamer in the motd that no law officials can be
there investigateing without a warrent, at which point the ow ner of the account would be notifyed first. :) anyw ays, just wanted to point out a few things.
Anthony May 2nd, 2002, 07:56 PM

Seriously, I'm not sure where you going w ith this carpet cleaner thing, but I doubt it w orks any better at extinguishing fire than other inert, or mostly inert substances. I.e baking
soda, salt, sand etc.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > s p u d g u n / m icrowave?
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I have this old spudgun that never fire d that good and a few old m icrowa ves. And I was wondering what I could do with them
then I rem e m b e r e d s o m e o n e h e r e s s i t e t h a t h a d a m i c r o w a v e b a l l l i g h t i n g p l a s m a g u n t h a t u s e d a m a g n a t o n e a n d 2 carbon
rods and a capsitor and a co2 blast to shoot out the ball lighting a n d p l a s m a. So here is what I'm thinking of doing that old
spudgun I have I would drill a hole in the endcap and put the magnatone in the hole and seal it and get it powered up and
goin g then I would fire the spudgun with no spud in the barrel. What do you guys think would happen if anything? b e c a u s e I
don't want to d o t h i s i f n o t h i n g i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n a n d a n y o t h e r i d e a s a b o u t t h i s k i n d o f d e v i c e s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e s e l i n e s ?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
BoB- S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2001, 03:42 PM

You dont honestly think that your pipe will insulate the m agnetron enough to not leak microwave radiation?
Most likely this will do m o r e d a m age to you (literally cook you) than your target.

No, I just forgot to put this down that I was going to put the device in a 2" thick walled cast iron drain pipe.
I also was going to fire it rem otly from inside a steel tool shed.
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y A - B O M B ( e d i t e d S e p tem ber 05, 2001).]
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2001, 04:15 PM

You need a source of carbon for a plasma ball to form.
That's why putting powdered charcoal or BP in the microwave is fun.

W hat, if I took a piece of toilet paper and put powdered carbon on it and put another piece on top and put it in the barrel so
when I fire the spudgun the paper wou ld rip apart and put out a cloud of carbon dust in the path of the rays from th e
m agnatone?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > detonaters for m unitions
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drstrangelove May 12th, 2002, 05:52 PM

After spending tim e learning how to produce reliable explosives and detonate the m I now want to concentrate on im provised
explosive wepons.
I worry about improvised primarys in the wepons exploding when subjected to rou gh treatm ent like running, jum ping, throwing
t h e m , a n d o t h e r o u t d oor activities.
I definatly don't trust the peroxides for personal use so I was wondering what primary is least sensitive to shock, friction,
temperature changes and static electricity but still works well and can be produces at hom e without anything to exotic.

haha...all good things need exotic ingredients. i think h owever silver azide m ay b e a g o o d i d e a i f y o u c a n o b t a i n t h e s o d i u m
azide from car airbags. its mo re powerful than lead azide and m aybe if cast with NC it could be dam g o o d .
Microtek May 13th, 2002, 04:06 AM

W ell, if you take a look in Misc at the topic called im provised sodium azide you'll find a way to m ake silver azide ( or lead
azide for that matter ). The chemicals needed are:
s o d i u m hypo chlorite
NH4O H
gela tine ( as used in cooking )
sulfuric acid
ice
lead
nitric acid ( a ny conc. )
NaOH
d e m ineralize d or distilled water ( tap water is useless fo r this lab )
ethanol
isopropyl ( or butyl ) alcohol
silver ( or lead )
nitrite ( can be made from nitrate reduced with lead )
I think that was all of them. O f c o u r s e y o u n e e d s o m e g o o d w a y o f p r o t e cting yourself from the interm ediaries which are rather
p o i s o n o u s , b ut this is not really hard to do; m ost of the reaction s c a n b e l e f t u n - a t t e n d e d m o s t o f t h e t i m e , if you just com e
back to check on them e v e r y s o o f t e n . T h e s e c h e c k s c a n b e d o n e while holding your breath as they only take a few seconds. If
the reaction is done outdoors or with som e i m p rovised ventilation system , you should be allright.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > spigot mo rtar instead of mortar
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twinkle S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 11:51 AM

I have looked at the archive but I could not find inform ation about it so I post this topic . I saw that there was a lot of intere st
in m a k i n g a m o r t a r b u t h e r e y o u n e e d a b i g g o o d s e a m less tube where the shell fits perfectly in so why not m a k i n g a s p i g o t
m ortar instead . A spigot mortar is more or less the opposite you need a sm aller steel tube (spigo t) where a bigger steel tube
fits over this is a part of your shell
it has just lik e a mortar shell sm all win gs
but the load of your shell can variate from beercan size to trash can size whatever you want (within lim its of course of the size
of the "launching" tube ) but you can make it the size for lauching an arrow to what you like . I don't know how to post som e
pictures so I have searched for some links
to show what I m e a n T h e s p i g o t h a s s o m e benefits , yo u d o n ' t n e e d t o m a k e p r e cize shells , an tube which fits good over
another one is easier to find , you can shoot in a "straight" line at short range and are Ith ink safer to launch as a shell in a
tube
here are the links
http://www.dm na.state.ny.us/slater/weapons/m k10.htm l
the above shows the hedgeho g an antisubmarine weapon

http://m e m ber.nifty.ne.jp/takixxx/artillery.htm
a b o v e l o o k a t t y p e 9 8 a s p i g o t mortar a big one
http://www.wwiitech.net/britain/weapons/index.html
above look at the PIAT a short range anti tank weapon it is also a spigot weapon
this was invite by C olonel Blacker there is also a thing called Blacker bom b a r d a b i g g e r o n e a s t h e P I A T
the spigot mortar is gun of ww1
Heavy Recoil S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 07:53 PM

W hen I was at one of m y friends house (he lurks here) He showed m e a d e s i g n o f a f e w g r e n a d e l a u n c h e r s , H e t a l l e d a b o u t a
spigot launcher but did not go into any great detail. He will be em ailing me a work of fiction to post on here that m ight have
the application of one in it.
Edit: He also talked about a K-gun sistem to fire a gren ade (he had a working m odel that we tested, underground to absorb
shra pnel. It was a m odular sistem , like NBK2000's grenade, with a s h r a p n a l s l e a v e m a d e f r o m a c o k e c a n a n d b a l l b e r r i n g s .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H e a v y R e c o il (edited Septem ber 06, 2001).]
sealsix6 S e p t e m b e r 1 2th, 2001, 12:24 PM

W ith this design what would you use as the propellent? PB or som e other m ixture?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Motion activated sprinkler
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Tyler_Durden May 13th, 2002, 12:20 AM

I foresee many possible uses of this little gadget I stumbled upon...
<a href="http://www2.yardiac.com/long.asp?tgs=296091:16502961&cart_id=86991:740884178876&item_id=886" target="_blank">Motion Activated Sprinkler</a>
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Scarecrow Motion Activated Sprinkler
The Scarecrow is a motion activated sprinkler that chases animals away.
It is a clean and effective alternative to smelly, poisonous, or visually disruptive repellents. Just hook up to your garden hose, plug in the battery and point it over the area to
be protected. It's that easy.
How it works
Scarecrow senses animals the same way security lights detect people; movement and heat. When an animal is seen, a valve opens instantly releasing a three-second pulsating
spray of water. The combination of the sudden noise, movement, and water frightens animals away. This startling, yet harmless action is a remarkably effective deterrent.
What it needs
9-volt battery power and a hookup to a garden hose. Scarecrows easily last through an average summer's use.
Installation
It's easy! Just install the battery, hook up the garden hose and plant the stake in the ground.
Coverage
Up to 1000 square feet can be covered by one Scarecrow. A 35 foot deep and 45 foot wide 100 degree sensor detection zone provides plenty of garden protection.
<hr /></blockquote>The $65 price tag bothers me a bit... but I can't think of any way to easily improvise something
similar in a manner that saves money.
Modification for the device to spray something other than water would be very easy... just hook up a small section of hose (a few inches or more, depending on how much of
the chemical you want to spread you have), insert the liquid you want to disperse (be it tear gas or something more lethal), and somehow create some pressure behind it to
ensure the chemical is pushed into the device properly. It requires 30-80 psi.
Could probably be easily modified to fire in one direction only (if your use requires it) as opposed to what I assume is a 360 degree spray it does by default.
hodehum May 13th, 2002, 07:19 AM

The only thing that could stop it from covering 360 degrees (other than the sensor) would be the fact that it cant turn, this could be solved with a servo type motor and
more than one sensor covering different sectors. Although I would have no idea what electronics would be needed to implement this. A better option (although possibly more
expensive) would to just have more than sprinkler.
But why would you need one to face more than 90 degrees anyway? Just place one by each entrance way, activate them each night before you go to bed with a switch rigged
up by your front door, deactivate them when you wake up.
For a more lethal type fill the tank with ethanol and adapt a lighting mechanism to light just before it sprays. It would only work reliably once, but it would stop anyone
approaching the building in their tracks.
Of course you would have to make the senor less sensitive so as to not fry the neighbourhood pets.
Tyler_Durden May 13th, 2002, 08:34 AM

Yes, I would consider it more of an indoor thing to prevent wasting your chemicals on pests.
I didn't mean modify it so that the sensor detects all directions, I meant modify the spraying mechanism so that it sprays in only one direction, instead of 360 degrees.
Does anyone have any idea how something like this could be improvised?
PYRO500 May 13th, 2002, 05:17 PM

I wouldn't use ethanol, it's flame propegation speed is too slow and it dosen't burn long and hot enough. I would modify it to make it water tight and have it spray toxin
possibly a nerve agent.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Simple grenade design
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Igenx S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 10:31 PM

Hey all. Just an idea for a really simple (not using any chemical explosive) im pact grenade. Don't know how well it'd work, but
h e r e ' s t h e i d e a . T a k e a glass bottle with a screw on lid, such as a tea bottle. Drill a hole in the cap, glue in a tire valve so that
the air wouldn't leak, and pressurize with a com p r e s s o r o r b i k e p u m p ( I w o u l d u s e a b i k e p u m p with a pressure gauge built in
so it'd increase relatively slowly and I could monitor the pressure without changing it).
Throw it.
A n y o n e d r e a m t of such a device, specifically ab o u t m a x p r e s s u r e s o r r a n g e o f s h r a p n e l ?
mongo blongo S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2001, 04:44 PM

I don't think this would work very well since there would not be enough pressure in the bottle to do what you want it to do. I
guess that if the pressure is n ot enough to breach the glass then we are talking about a lower pressure tha n you want.
It could work with a very very thick glass walls.
T h i s w o u l d a l s o b e q u i t e d a n g e r o u s b e cause you don't know the max pressure the bottle can withstand when
pressurizing!(could go off in your face). Also the max pressure would be different for each bottle e.g hairline fractures,defects
when manufactured a nd uneven thickn e s s o f t h e g l a s s .
I think this would be a bad idea.
Fingerless S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2001, 06:18 PM

That just sounds, well, kinda lam e , a n d d a n g e r o u s - m ore than likely it would go off in your hand, a nd it wouldnt throw shrapnel
m uch farther than a empty bo ttle thrown.
DarkAngel S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 01:05 PM

Yeah same for me it's dangerous and it's useless if you whan't to m ake a granade stick to explosives and no kewl idea's
------------------
arkAngel

s e n d t o s e c t i o n 1 @ h o t m ail.com
Igenx S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 06:07 PM

Agreed. I was just trying to think of som ething really simple to mess with the assholes that were supposed to be protesting up
here... Doesn't really matter now cause they didn't even show up http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif
W as originally thinkin g of using this as a delivery system for a chem ical agent of som e s o rt (filling the bottle half full of
chlorine or som ething similar) but even that wo uldn't work particularly well.
ALENGOSVIG1 S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2001, 02:40 AM

This doesnt really cross the line into being a real kewl p ost, but im feelin g ruthless.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Full auto bb gun
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I have had the idea for a home made super rapid firing bb gun that has a vertical feed tube leading into the barrel some how with a compressed air sorce from a co2 tank led
through a regulator and switched with a blowgun. any ideas on how to keep bb's from flowing all through the barrel in a device like this?
mongo blongo September 10th, 2001, 10:42 PM

I tried something like this when i was a kid!
I used a solenoid with a spring behind it (hooked up to the trigger). When the solenoid is activated it release the bbs and when you take your finger off the trigger the spring
pushed it back into position stopping the flow of bbs. It worked quite well until my brother broke it! Bastard!
I would also suggest (if you haven't already thought of it) having some kind of container on top of the tube so you can fire a decent amount.
It may be worth finding out how this is achieved in paint ball guns.

A paintball gun does this by having a recocking bolt that blocks the barrel witch is nit feasible to improvise with bb's at a reasonable cost
BoB- September 11th, 2001, 03:27 AM

Magnetize a small pipe that will fit in the barell but a BB cant drop through. Glue/Weld this into place right behind the magazine, so as a BB falls into the barell, it does not roll
backwards and the magnet keeps it from rolling forwards, acting as a plug until a burst of air releases it, and the next BB takes its place.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited September 11, 2001).]
berg September 11th, 2001, 03:44 AM

How do the small Mini-electric BB guns work? cold these be scaled up to be more powerfull? - Berg?

maybe this can be of some help there is another homepage to but I could not find it
http://www.kutz.com/combat/bbgun.htm

here is that other homepage I had to search for it .Although I know it is RC stuff it works and maybe it can be made stronger to.
http://www.mwci.org/members/rthibault/R_C_Warship_Construction.htm

The problem with just releasing a stream of gas fed with a hopper of BBs is that when a BB is fired, another will drop down behind it while it is still in the barrel, blocking the
force to the BB in front so that it no longer accelerates. So effectively you have short barrel (the lenght of which is decided by how long it takes for another BB to drop from the
mag/hopper).
I think a bolt is the only way to gohttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
Worth a note is that the Daisy 2003 CO2 pistol can easily be converted to fire full auto. It has a 35 round magazine (unusually high, especially for a pistol) and the slide blows
back with each shot.

I think an interupter disk might work easily, just have a feed tube larger than thew bb's but not enough to let them get side by side then have a disk with a hole twice the size
of a bb run through it at a variable speed. if I have time I may draw a pic.

That's a good idea! Simple and effective - my favourite kind of solution.
I guess if you didn't want to waste gas you could also use the interupter disk to open and close a solenoid valve to release a pulse of gas for each shot.

That would be possible to do that However there would be a certain amount of precision required to time something like that effectively, also you would need a fast high
pressure solenoid that could run off of low voltages witch I have yet to find even a solenoid valve that would work here, That's why I suggested the blow gun nozzle. If anyone
knows where to get a valve to switch these kinds of high pressures and is portable please come forward. it would be nice not to have to use a regulator.
also does anyone know how much pressure a standard shop blowgun would hold back and be able to switch?

I just drew a pic of it (forgive the misspellings) as alway's you'll have to cut and paste it into a browser.
http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/bbgun.jpg

If the motor in your pic were pnumatically driven it would mean less electronics.

The only issue I can see is gas escaping into the hopper which would reduce power, but if the hopper isn't very big and you release a big burst of gas it shouldn't be a problem.
High pressure solenoid valves tend to be very pricey, cheaper hydraulic valves will work but they tend to be leaky when used with gas. The closest solution I can htink of would
be to use a solenoid coil to activate a valve/blow gun.
Personally I'd just go with the blowgun (or high pressure equivilent) for the simplicity. Who cares if the CO2 bottle doesn't last so long?
With CO2 you might have trouble with expansion, i.e you drop the pressure in the bottle faster than the liquid CO2 can boil to replenish it. Resulting in a drop in bottle pressure
and power the longer the gun is fired for.
This might be curable with an expansion tank between the CO2 bottle and the gun.
If this is a problem you could try gases like nitrogen or argon (latter easily available in dispossable bottles for MIG welders). The upside is that the bottle pressure is several
times that of CO2, but due to it not being liquified you get less gas per bottle.
I'd really try not to use a regulator as the area of a BB isn't much and to get a decent level of power you really need some nice high pressure behind it.
Dunno about the max operating pressure of blowguns, but I's guess 150-200psi, that typically being the max pressure of garage compressors.

On the side of the blowgun in my garage:
WARNING: This blowgun is meant to be used at a pressure no higher than 90psi!
It also says something similar on all my airtools, but I run 120 through all of them, I oil them daily and havent had any problems.
skunkdude September 27th, 2001, 12:16 PM

Anthony, how would one go about converting a daisy 2003 to full auto?
------------------
"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"

http://armory.freeservers.com/html/daisy2003.html
------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

I beleve that model has been pulled from the market hasn't it?
------------------

First I've heard about it if it has...
------------------
skunkdude October 1st, 2001, 07:03 PM

i've searched the net, and i can't find any where which is selling these pistols, let alone in the uk. all the US companies i have asked say that "this model is unavailable" and i
can't find a single uk site selling them.
are there any other air pistols which work on the same basis as the daisy 2003?
------------------
"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > new generation of handguns
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View Full Version : new generation of handguns
twinkle S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2001, 10:09 AM

t h i s s e e m s to be the new generation o f handguns electronically firing mu ltiple bullets in a split second
http://www.odwyer-sm artgun.com / m a i n . h t m l
SawedOff8gaugeman S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2001, 01:47 PM

T h a t s e e m s to be crap. Just som e g e a rhead trying to steal your money with a complete piece of shit. http://
theforum.virtualave.n et/ubb/smilies/frown.gif T raditional guns offer the same fire power, probably m ore "stopping power" and
work better. Additionally, they are m uch finer artifacts http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/cool.gif
btw, I don't consider this as som ething which belongs in the "im provised weapons".
J S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2001, 02:31 PM

I wouldn't bu y one until it's tried and tested for reliability. It m a y h a v e n o m o v i n g parts, but traditional autom atics have been
tried and tested for m any decades, whereas this one hasn't.
T h e i n c r e a s e d a m m o c a p a c i t y i s a g o o d f e a t u r e t h o u g h , a s s u m ing it's as powerful.
Moving to m isc...
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Blank Firers
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View Full Version : Blank Firers
Aggy June 7th, 2001, 03:40 AM

I know this subject has come up many times before but its never been fully explained. Has anyone got any ideas on how to
modify a blank firing gun to fire bullets (changing the barrel). By bullets I mean improvised ones, I know they'd probably blow
up if you use live ammo. Not all of them are made from zinc either iv'e seen some steel ones about, also a fully automatic
mac 10. I know modified ones exist because I went on the homeoffice website and they had a report about ten blank firing
8mm berettas being recovered after a raid, they had been converted to fire live 8mm rounds. Also had an article about
brocock air cartridge revolvers being converted to fire live .22 rounds.
The reason I ask about blank firers and not deactivated guns is that you basically have a full working gun opposed to the
deactivated ones. I remember Maddoc posting a little while ago saying that he'd soon be getting plans about converting an
8mm glock blank firer.

I uploaded a few pics of the full auto mac10.
Http://aggy.50megs.com

Hmm I still haven't got round to getting that cheap blank firer (9mm) from guns2u.com. I was thinking I'd start with sections
of 9mm wooden dowel as a projectile and work up to steel rod, possibly with aluminium rod first. I could cast some lead slugs
but I don't think they'd be too great, high chamber pressure and low muzzle velocity and also poor armour piercing unlike the
steel slugs.
Also, when I get this thing I'm going to mail order some blank rounds but I'm not quite sure which ones I need, do I want
"9mm blanks" or "9mm blanks Auto"? I'm guessing the auto's are for blow backs like the gun I'm getting but I'm not sure.
The auto's are cheaper BTW.
richl261 June 8th, 2001, 12:52 PM

guns2u.com....wow, i found a new favourite page http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
do they deliver stun guns to the uk, do you know?
jin June 8th, 2001, 04:52 PM

has anybody ordered anything from guns2u.com
they dont give out there address or even the country there in.i sent them a email asking for a address to send them a money
order and they told me they only do credit card orders.
Donutty June 8th, 2001, 08:20 PM

AK47, M16, FN-FAL...drool...
I know the company that has those adverts to order them from (in Gun Mart)
Yeah guns2u.com is cool - the guns they sell have no blocked barrel and fire the muzzle flash from the barrel.
Yup, can only use a credit card. Thank god for Visa. (But then you've got to pay it off, remember! :] )

I read somewhere on their site that stun guns aren't available to the UK. They are based somewhere in Europe (probably
France).

I think someone posted their full address in France a little while back.
Any ideas on the blanks required guys? (looking at the Colt GT as it's the cheapest - going to mess with it after all!)

Ok, guns2u.com sell stun guns to the uk but the basic idea is that if they're confiscated by customs its your problem but they
do get past. The blank firing guns are not simply 'not blocked'. The barrel is reduced, the hole at the end is approx 3mm
which lets the gas escape which launches the flares. In the UK stun guns and these types of blank firing guns fall under
section 5 which is banned firearms/weapons.
Guns2u.com is the sister site of tecmagex.com which is a french site and it displays an address.

If the barrel is reduced to 3mm then they must be capable of taking quite a bit of pressure.
Anyone got any idea what I could use this 9mm drill bit I got here for?http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
To anybody who is thinking of ordering from them, please 'watch what you are doing'. Don't order 20 of the cheapo ones 'cos
they are going to get suspicious. I have wanted to buy one for genuine reasons for a long time, so I'd appreciate it if nobody
messed it up so I couldn't.
Thanks

Don't worry I'll just be ordering the one. Without ammo to avoid it being shipped with hazordous paper work, customs are
bound to take more notice of a box labeled as explosive...

You have to ask yourself would you ever import a real gun into the uk, I wouldn't especially to my home address and using
my cc card. This is what they're classed as over here.

I have to say I've not seen any warnings telling people that they are classed as Section 5 and that they are illegal in the UK.
There are notices saying to use them in a proper manner, but none about the legalities involved.
I've ordered something from them, so I hope it doesn't get stopped by customs. If they do and I loose my money, I'll fight
my case and say that it didn't state on the website.
Today I got an e-mail from them asking for confirmation of my address (driving license etc.). I'll let you know how it goes.

It does say on their site that if stuff gets siezed by customs - tough shithttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
I dunno about giving them your driving license or similar though...

Too,late - I've already sent them a scan of my license. It can't be tough shit if it gets siezed by customs. I ordered them with
the knowledge that they were legal, and there was no reason that they should be siezed. If they refuse to refund me, I'm well
within my rights.
Anyway, stop being pessimistic; if everything goes well, they'll be here tomorrow.
Aggy June 14th, 2001, 08:25 PM

I remember reading about a guy who was importing stunguns from the states he ordered about 40 over 6 months and when
the police paid him a visit he was let off because the site stated that stunguns were legal in the UK!

"By confirming your order, you agree to accept our Terms & Conditions"
Terms and conditions:
"In the eventuality of the users goods being seized by any government body including customs, police and law enforcement
authorities, the goods will be considered by guns2u.com's carriers to have been delivered and no refunds will be given unless
the goods are returned in as new condition with original packaging by the government body. In this case the user will receive a
refund for the goods order, but not the shipping costs"
Anway, looking towards the bright side, being an unmarked box and no paperwork it's unlikely to get spottedhttp://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
What did you order?
richl261 June 15th, 2001, 04:44 PM

ooh, oooh, did it arrive yet? did it? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif </10 yr old kid> heh
donutty, what'd ya order and did it arrive? i wanna order stuff from there!

I ordered 2x of the Beretta 92s (Black) and the black and chrome Colt 45. Came to around 115. My credit card has a 1000
limit so I might be tempted... nah!
Pity they can't ship ammo that easily 'cos it's dirt cheap! Blank rounds are only about 5 for 50 9mm PA and 1000 .22LR are
about 10. I might order some in a seperate order.

Oh yeah, I ordered them on Tuesday. They haven't come yet but I'm hoping they come tomorrow (3-5 working days). I'll let
you know when they do and what they're like.
Thnks for the info, I'd be interested in what the construction of the 45 is like.
Tal Arms have a selection of blanks from 8-10 plus VAT for 50
http://www5.airtime.co.uk/actinic/TAL_arms_Ltd/Online_Catalogue_Blank_Ammo_43.html
What's the difference between 9mm parabellum and 9mm / .380? Does PA stand for parabellum?
I can't see an .22s on guns2u but 1000 for 5 is damn cheap!
Heavy Recoil June 15th, 2001, 10:11 PM

I know 9mm parabellem is by 19.15, the soviet 9mm by 18 is self explanatory, and I know 380auto is by 17.27. 38super is by
22.86 38s&W is by 19.69 and 38 special is by 29.34 all in mm the 375 serise uses longer brass but is the same caliber
standared is 32.77 and the maximum is 40.77. This info is from a speer reloaders manual
------------------
Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU

Donutty: What's the news on that order? Has it arrived?
And is anyone from the UK going to be brave enough to order some rounds from www.guns2u.com? (http://www.guns2u.com?)
Edit: blank rounds obviously
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited June 16, 2001).]
Aggy June 16th, 2001, 04:00 PM

Why get them from guns2u.com when you can get them here?

Oh yeah, TAL etc.
I forgot about them!

Well, something has arrives from Guns2U.com, or more precisely, from tecMagex. I got an invoice and a catalogue, which is
unfortunately all in french!
I hope to be playing with my guns on monday. Quick Q - do customs check and/or x-ray every single item? I hope I haven't
wasted my 100

It'll come over in a steel shipping conatiner with the rest of the post, the most checking they probably do is walk a sniffer dog
past the container like they do with lorries. Dunno what the post office will do with the individual parcels once they're unloaded
from the container. Although considering the shear bulk of mail and the limited time I doubt they'd x-ray them, they might x-
ray a sample of mail but only like 2%.
If they do happen to xray your parcel and open it, the box would say "Umarex balnk firing replica pistol, if they check the gun
inside they'd see the muzzle is blocked (effectively) the gun would probably have "replica" stamped onto the slide or frame,
so they'd probably tape the parcel up and send it on. - That's what I reckon anyway.
I'll put an order in as soon as I've payed for this new air rifle...

Don't order anything 'till my stuff arives. Should come tomorrow, and if don't there's something wrong.

Donutty: it is now the day after tomorrow!
Did it come???

Ta Da! Yes they came today (tuesday). The Berettas are very nice. The Colt is good too but is obviously a 'budget' version as
it has limited features. So now I have:
2x Beretta 92
1x Beretta 85
1x Colt 45
1x .22 'Snubby'
1x Beretta 'Brigadier'
So go ahead and order Anthony, everything worked out fine.

Greathttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
J June 20th, 2001, 12:03 PM

Donutty, did you get my email?
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Donutty June 23rd, 2001, 05:33 PM

Yes I did J, cheers.
Everyone: My e-mail address is now donutty_uk@hotmail.com

anyone has succesfullly do the conversion/modification....wonder if the barrel can be replaced with a WWII version colt, those
things are sold at army surplus stores as (a non working) antiques...
man, it cost a lot or a good replica...better buy the Elite scopes
HMTD Factory June 28th, 2001, 06:41 PM

A conversion will need boring out the original bore and screw-in a new firearm barrel. The bolt face of the slide will need to be
replaced by a quality material insert so the bolt face don't set back due to recoil.
Stick with low pressure cartridges or the thing will be very dangerous. Look up a reloading manual for details.
I too have a 8mm blank firing desert eagle. The most suitable cartridge for conversion I think is 32 auto since the cartridge
will fit in the original magazine. Though I am more interested in a .22 mag shotshell conversion.
If the gun is intended a single shot (that you don't care if the new cartridge will fit the magazine) then it can be converted to
eat
a lot of things from .22 to revolver rounds.
SawedOff8gaugeman August 12th, 2001, 01:01 PM

So, you people who have ordered blank firers from guns2u.com, any experiences? Are there any models made of steel? Are
there any specific models which could be easily(well, ...) converted for live rounds? Are the trigger/hammer mechanisms
proper?
Or is there some better places to go than the guns2u?
richl261 August 13th, 2001, 01:30 PM

I am very tempted to get a blank gun from guns2u.com, because its cheap! i dont have a credit card, so i cant order by that
method, but i thought of a cheque from a bank will work...
my friend has tried to order a stun gun from there, and it hopefully will come soon http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif
if anyone knows of another cheap place (im in UK, btw) can you post it please?
ps, the blank firers are all exact replicas, so im led to believe http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
J August 13th, 2001, 02:42 PM

I'll be interested to know if the stun gun gets through. The only place I know of off-hand in the UK that sells blank firing guns
is Battle Orders, but I don't think they are particularly cheap.
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richl261 August 13th, 2001, 04:57 PM

yeah battle orders is expensive, but http://www.weaponsonline.co.uk/ isnt too bad, they sell a load of stuff including blank
guns...

I'm not trying to modify a blank firer, but in the not too distant future I'll be making my .177 or maybe .22 calibre air-rifle
pellet firing, blank round powered gun. It should be fun! I'll be using 8mm blanks, which when used with .177 pellets (the
heaviest I can find) should give quite a bit of muzzle velocity!
I'd just like to ask your opinion on something: how much of a problem do you think pellet stability will be at these speeds? Do
you think I'd be better off using a smooth bore and round projectiles? Because if it goes supersonic, then when it drops below
the speed of sound the the sonic boom will hit it and this can cause it to tumble, so after a certain range accuracy will be shite,
but round projectiles can't really tumble so they will be affected very little.

When you fire blank rounds through a air rifle barrel it's going to foul it horrendously and the build up will affect the trajectory
of the round..

Bottle-necking an 8mm blank to a 4.5mm barrel might make some pretty wacky chamber pressures...
I agree with Predator, the after a coupling of shots the barrel will probably (with BP blanks) be so fouled that the rifling is
useless. Also the pellet would almost definitely go super sonic so accuracy would probably be very bad.
Is there anyway to bore out/unfix and replace the barrel with a larger one and use round balls?

Obviously I'd clean the barrel, which will make it last a bit longer but I know it'd foul up pretty quick. I am seriously thinking
about using round projectiles in a smooth bore now. Those foam earplugs make great wadding behind the projectile, and I can
get hold of hundreds of them at absolutely no cost at all.
I think Atropine is planning to use .303 blanks and I think .177 pellets, but it might have been 0.22.
Edit: I think I've heard of 14 grain .177's somewhere, so they'll be what I use if I use that calibre. If not I might use .25" ball
bearings.
Basically, if the trajectory is straight enough to get through the hole in my silencer then I'll be happy!
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 15, 2001).]

Foam earplugs in a bore?
Won't they melt and add to the fouling?
[This message has been edited by Predator (edited August 15, 2001).]

I definately wouldn't use them in a rifled bore. But I think in a smooth bore the molten plastic would be very easy to remove,
and you wouldn't get much from each shot because of the very short time that it'd be experiencing high temperatures. If I
think it'll be a problem, I'll line the inside with copper tubing or something that can just be replaced when it gets too fouled up.

14gr .177s sound like Dae Sungs, I've not ever seen them in a gun shop but you might be able to get them mail order/real
big shop.
I also remember hearing that at much over 1000fps, in an airgun the pellet would not following the rifling and just heads
stright for the muzzle without twisting. I pressume the rifling rips lumps out of the pellet as it passes.
Smouthbore can be very accurate, especially with round projectiles as they don't need spin stabilisation.

Yes, I am having a smooth bore now. I'll fire round balls or little bits of metal rod. I was thinking about the idea of shaping
the front end of the rod to spin it as it goes through the air, but decided it'd be too hard to get it to work well.

I posted a link of a German site who has information on a lot of types of derringers
I know that these .38 type(and bigger) of Derringers were(are) converted to .22 LR by putting in a new barrel for instance by
using a 5.5 mm airgun barrel (a .22 fits very nice it and you have rifling to ) the site was:
http://www.derringer.de/index2.htm

The flares on the blanks are pushed onto a small point on the front of the blank, and when fired the muzzle flash ignites the
flare compound (any one know what this is?), I know this as I saw my friend shooting one off only the other night. So there is
no barrle with a .3mm hole, unless there is another model I havent seen.
richl261 August 31st, 2001, 08:14 AM

i ordered a Beretta 92F Nickel from guns2u. should be here today!!
richl261 August 31st, 2001, 12:49 PM

ta-da!!
it came! hooray!
i have to buy ammo now!, Donutty, where did u buy your ammo from?
oh, and does anyone know what the "take down switch" does?, thanx http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Anthony August 31st, 2001, 08:50 PM

Most likely allows the gun to be stripped (probably allows the slide to be slid off over the muzzle).
Victim September 1st, 2001, 05:28 PM

the other day (the 31'st) I order'd,
x2 Beretta 92F - over the 85 as the 92F has n 18round mag as opposed to the 85 which has a 8round mag
x1 Glock 17
x1 Hatson Mod 40
richl261, did you get asked for ID as well?

I sent them a scan of my passport. Donutty did you send them a scan of your Driving license and passport? well, im hoping
they come soon.
richl261 September 2nd, 2001, 01:04 PM

Yeah they asked for ID, but thats fine, i sent a copy of my drivers licence (Im 16, it was my provisional, the french dont know
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif ) besides, they only want proof of address. They wont ask everytime, now
im in their database.
Donutty October 1st, 2001, 06:21 PM

I sent them a scan of just my driving license. I have ordered from them 3 times; they only asked for ID the first time. BTW -
Provisional licenses have a big red 'L' on them!!
I'll take some pics of the guns field stripped and some shots of the barrel, which is only really plugged with a 2mm thick piece
of metal running down the middle. You can even unscrew the small apperture which works like a blank firing adaptor on a real
weapon, allowing enough pressure/gas to build up to blow the slide back (if your take this out, the slide doesn't move and the
shell isn't ejected)
------------------
...AAGH! It Burns!...
Donutty October 1st, 2001, 06:24 PM

http://www.guns2u.com/products/blank_firers/reck_king_cobra.htm
Looks tasty! And legal??
In the hard-copy catalogue (in French) they offer BP for sale. Could this be ordered without suspiscion, or am I better off
sticking to making my own??
------------------
...AAGH! It Burns!...
Aggy October 2nd, 2001, 08:11 AM

Legal in France wouldn't be in the UK. However you haven't had any trouble with the blank firers so it'll probably get through
alright.
J October 2nd, 2001, 02:32 PM

Just because something got through doesn't mean everything will. Customs are very unpredictable (if they weren't, there'd be
no point in having them).
------------------
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Aggy October 4th, 2001, 07:21 AM

I know not everything gets through but he has had a few orders through without them being siezed. So have a few others plus
the gun will only look like another blankfirer.
omega1141 July 8th, 2002, 08:16 AM

Has anybody in Australia ordered from guns2u? and most importantly did u get it?
Omega
Harry July 8th, 2002, 01:04 PM

Has anyone in the US ordered from guns4u.com with success? Their prices are betterthan what I've seen here.

Harry, don't you mean <a href="http://www.guns2u.com" target="_blank">Guns 2 U</a>, and not guns4u.com ? As the only
thing I see for sale on guns4u, is popup ridden web space.
frostfire July 8th, 2002, 06:51 PM

gee, this rubber ball revolver seem very promising, too bad they don't send to US (at least, not mentioned in rates), anyone
know the version of guns2U in US?
edit: (found it)http://shop.store.yahoo.com/coolgadget1/blanfirgunre.html

and many other
also what is the law concerning these guns? I know EAG & other BB/CO2 gun have red paint on the caliber tip for a reason
NV and taser in that site are jokes though, it's like paying 10 USD for a peanut
[ July 08, 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]

frostfire, they say "A fool and his money are soon parted". What you have to ask yourself is: Are you foolish enough to pay
those prices?
E7 July 13th, 2002, 06:08 AM

if you read the info page guns2u says they will ship anywhere in the world, allthough they probably charge more than the gun
for shipping. as far as legality/orange tip goes, this touches on the subject
<a href="http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fake_gun.reg.txt" target="_blank">http://www-

2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fake_gun.reg.txt</a>

In other words "You may have nothing but a lump of wood and if that's gun shaped, don't blame us if we happen to kill you
thinking that it was real" .. :rolleyes:
duke of hazmat September 3rd, 2002, 06:58 PM

Ok, in all honesty i have a dream-machine that allows me to take pic's of things in my dreams, and if someone was to forgive
my newbie-ness and tell me how to post pics here then i will supply some dream pictures of my dream berretta 92f conversion
(8mm into .177)
once again, forgive my newbieness as i am aware how to do everything else but i dont know how to post pictures (via link or
what) so plz dont flame me if you're annoyed. (newbies are fair game from what i see) :D
I can supply full details of my dream conversion (required a drill press, hack-saw and some JB weld, (and some airgun barrel)

Since I'm personally interested :D
Go to <a href="http://www.geocities.com" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com</a> sign up for a website account. Upload

your pictures and post the link to them in your post e.g. <a href="http://www.geocities.com/youraccount/arsepic1.jpg"
target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/youraccount/arsepic1.jpg</a>
If you need more help, email me rather than take up space here.
[ September 03, 2002, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
duke of hazmat September 4th, 2002, 02:10 PM

ok, now i have my mind put together. thanks go to the all powerful nbk for not kicking me, i wont be a noob anymore (well as
far as asking about the easy stuff :p )
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/dukeofhazmat/pic1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/dukeofhazmat/

pic1.jpg</a>
pic2.jpg</a>
pic3.jpg</a>
SAVE THESE TO YOUR COMPUTER AND VIEW, I WILL FIX LINK NEXT TIME IM ONLINE. SORRY FOR INCONVIENIENCE CAUSED :(
these are some pics,

what i did to create this amazing piece of kit was to obtain a beretta 92f 8mm blank gun, i used a hacksaw to chop off the
barrel at the chamber block, this was hard due to the hardened steel insert. I then drilled the hack-sawed edge to the depth of
the tip of the blank round. after doing this i machined a barrel from a piece of .177 barrel froma chinese air-rifle to the correct
dimensions (to fit snugly in the afore mentioned chamber block) after alligning it i mixed up some
jb weld and affixed the barrel and held it in compression for 2 days (in a vice).
improvements/suggestions for the mark 2:

I didnt clear the jb weld from the chamber, as a result i sustained a failiure in the frame,
resulting in the hardened steel "ring" that holds the round being pushed forward, the case of the blank (loaded with a rabbit
magnum ultra heavy .177 round) was deformed so that it was unable to be chambered. after clearing the jb weld from the
chamber i retried it and it fired and chambered the next round in the magazine,
after tightening the screws on the frame (slight loosening was noted after fail) and a full mag was tried, no noticable cracks or
loosening was observed after this test.
interruption of sear to convert to full auto:

i am researching into this.
laser is a cheap and nasty one btw, but i still get ok accuracy.
this is able to penetrate 2" of oak @ 10 feet, this is due to the small cross section of round
(i tried to get a picture of down the barrel but my camera lense is not in line with peep sight, i will get another pic of down the
barrel to show rifling which does aid at long range accuracy as i get head shots at about 30 yards double tap)
if you have any questions plz ask !!! :D

(btw the silencer is a master piece of engineering, as it is based on the helix supressor of the stirling with a cooling gell based
on a captive mercury coolant jacket, my best friend designed and started the production of it, but i had to finish the
construction so i am only so-so on the exact dimensions and works of this, i can email the machinists diagrams if needed)
[ September 04, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: duke of hazmat ]
a_bab September 4th, 2002, 02:22 PM

You have to be full-filled with books otherwise we have here a so-called NBK2000 :D and he is very dangerous...
Seriously, try this: <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000032" target="_blank">http:/

/www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000032</a>
...And be more carefull before posting useless info (like I did here). But I did because of you.
leonvios September 5th, 2002, 10:16 AM

In Coventry (England) there is a store very close to town called kitbag they sell some blank firers there and blanks no
questions asked although I have not bought any they also sell hexamine tabs and all sorts of other stuff there though hope I
dont endanger the store by submitting this post.

duke of hazmat, could you get a picture of the ammo? I'm most intrested.
richl261 September 17th, 2002, 06:23 PM

a quick note - if you are buying from <a href="http://www.guns2u.com," target="_blank">www.guns2u.com,</a> try to buy
blanks there at the same time, because the ones you can buy in england are not the right size, i had this trouble the other
day.

Buy blanks from them and you'll pay *serious* hazardous shipping...
Obviously, if you buy the 8mm blanks that are common here then they won't fit right (although the gun I have says it takes
8mm and 9mm), but I got some 9mm and they work fine.
mark151 May 24th, 2004, 12:28 AM

Hey guys sorry to resurect an old post like this but I had to know, can a blank gun reciever be used in place of a real guns
reciever? It seems to me that it would, as its a 1:1 scale replica.
Thanks
nbk2000 May 24th, 2004, 01:25 PM

No, not as is.
Weak pot metal castings, deliberately weakened, etc.
You'd have to reinforce it or, if it's an exact replica that real gun parts will fit in, make a duplicate using machined steel.
mark151 May 24th, 2004, 09:41 PM

So, say a walther p22 blank gun reciever couldnt take the abuse of a .22lr? I held a realy nice blank gun in germany meant
for screwing on to an atatchment for launching flares. It was real sollid.
nbk2000 May 26th, 2004, 06:06 PM

.22LR might be possible, as it is a fairly weak round. I'd most definately NOT try this with any high-power rounds like .40S&W,
.45, or such. A .32 would likely be the most you could safely handle in a modified blank-firer, and only have extensive testing
to ensure the future union of your hand with your arm. :p
akinrog June 5th, 2004, 05:37 PM

Sorry for bringing up an old topic.
A few days ago SWIM purchased a 9 mm blank firer. SWIM is experimenting with this blank firer gun.
Although SWIM can easily remove the slide mechanism (breech?), SWIM cannot remove the barrel which is fixed by means of
a kind of pin. In addition, as NBK previously indicated the metal parts (other than barrel) is very soft (:(). SWIM can simply
make dents on the metal parts by hitting with the handle of the power checker screwdriver.
SWIM shall attach a photo of the partly disassembled gun (although poor quality), maybe some one may identify that pins
and give a hint how to remove them.
THAT Dude September 15th, 2004, 02:49 PM

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/index.htm sell blank firing(odd cap) guns.
In the revolvers setion you can see down the barrel of the Smith & Wesson Schofield Cavalry, note that its only blocked by a
thin bar. "replicas functions and fieldstrips exactly like the real thing." So if you were to change the cylinder with one from a
parts gun you may get a real gun.
bjr March 6th, 2005, 02:19 PM

my appoligies for dragging up an old post, did anyone actually convert a blank firer?
mike-hunt December 28th, 2007, 09:14 AM

As an Australian and unable to legally buy firearms I have been very interested in homemade weapons have read Lutes 9 mm
plans although not much use when 9 mm rounds are almost impossible to get your hands on here. was considering making
.22 smg from Bill Holmes plans but had to abandon that to as barrel blanks and magazines are needed for this
I have however come across a supplier of replica and blank firing pistols in Australia
Http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au/ I purchased a colt python .45 replica and blank fierier have read that they were being
banned as it is possible to convert them to live firing and decided to check this out .the blank fierier looks good and it would
be easy enough to drill out the barrel and magazine chambers. It doesn't look to be built solid enough to use as a pistol
although I am shore parts will come in handy for future projects .
I was how ever able to make alterations to the replica. In theory it should fire ,I haven't the balls or spare ammo to test fire.
the gun itself is constructed from a very solid steel I blunted several new drill bits .there are several features of the replica that
prevent it firing live rounds here is how I overcome them.
1- the magazine chambers don't fit the ammo. these I drilled out with a hand drill. several mm also had to be ground from
the rear of the magazine to although clearance when loaded this was done very carefully so to not damage the star shaped
center that rotates the mag.
2 -the barrel. the barrel is only attached to the frame by being fitted over a spike molded onto the frame once the frame is
drilled there is nothing to hold the barrel on the ideal fix is a genuine barrel available online but difficult to get through
customs then the frame con be threaded to except the barrel . I however chose to attach the barrel with j-b weld an adhesive
clamed to be as strong as a weld although I don't believe that and if the gun fails it will most likely be here .the barrel is not
riffled although being a hand gun it shouldn't be an issue
3 firing pin - the firing pin is the blunt end removed from a drill bit . Part of a pen spring was glued in place and the frame
drilled so the pin lines up with the primer. The hole in the frame is big enough to hold the spring but not let it slip through
.test firing with brass dummy rounds marked the brass close enough to the center to lead me to believe live firing possible
The gun was finished by removing the black paint and applying a shop bought bluing kit walnut grips were also added to
replace the plastic ones.
The result was a very real looking pistol . I don't think that it would be good for more than 2 or 3 shots and don't recommend
any one fires . It is however ideal for what I want a scary looking gun that probably will never need to be used but in an
emergency should fire at least one shot.
I welcome any criticism. As to why this wont work and ideas for improvements as I hope to prefect this into something more
reliable .
I hope to build a single shot 12 gage pistol using the trigger and firing pin from the replica and Lutes plans for inspiration will
post plans if it works out.
links to photos of gun

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj205/fredflintstoned/Pic_1228_105.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj205/fredflintstoned/Pic_1228_104.jpg
shrub February 16th, 2008, 09:43 PM

Would it be possible to convert the gun mentioned above to
fire steel bbs (4.5mm) or .117 air rifle pellets using the blank rounds. Would this be safe to use for prolonged use?
iHME February 18th, 2008, 07:47 AM

It has been successfully done.
Construction of the pistol:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3OVDSycsx8
Firing the pistol:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbj4UPBrV64
I think that I have all ready posted this on a different thread.

shrub February 19th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of putting bbs into each chamber of the cylinder. Of course you would need some way of
holding them in place.
Mike-Hunt did you ever get to test your creation? I also live near wellington surplus
Latindude_002 February 19th, 2008, 10:32 PM

Hello, new guy here. I'm also interested in using cartridges with extra kick in brococks, alongside the air ones. I'm the US, so
no issues with the ban.
When it comes to primers, I found a company that makes primer powered cartridges for use in centrefires. I will possibly have
some made that use the 209 shotgun primer.
If I'm not mistaken, another fellow who used these primers reported 10ft/lb on the revolver, which is about a 50% power
increase.
Osis creation is brilliant, however I have concerns about it. A .22 short is said to have a diameter of .223 (5.7mm), while
airguns are actually .220 (5.5mm) if I am not mistaken. Isn't the wider bullet harming the barrel?
mike-hunt March 1st, 2008, 11:22 AM

Re: replica pistol conversion
I have not fired the replica due to the fact I could only get six 38 cal rounds .
I would feel a lot safer firing 22's through the pistol and I am searching for an insert that allows a 22, to be fired through a 38
revolver this would be ideal as this caliber is easier to find in Australia for those of us who don't qualify for a shooters license.
I have currently got on order a conversion for a flare gun which allows the firing of 38 cal
round from a 25 mm flare pistol and are saving the 38 rounds for use in this .
Flare gun inserts at http://www.captainforhire.com/products.htm
I have a solid looking German made 25 mm flare gun I had no problem finding one online and they are legal to import into
Australia . The inserts are properly illegal to import though I don't anticipate any trouble. As being aluminum and not
resembling any gun part I know of it should slip through an x-ray unnoticed. I will post an update if they arrive safely.
mike-hunt March 1st, 2008, 11:27 AM

Shrub
To fire bb from a blank pistol I think a sabot would work a peace of dense foam like surf bord foam cut to fit the chamber and
the bb's pushed into this. As to the effect on the pistol or safety I have no idea.
shrub March 10th, 2008, 07:01 AM

What would be the best blank firer to buy from wellingtonsurplus.com to convert to .22 the colt python fires 9mm blanks would
the .22 bullets fit in the magazine? Also what could be used for a replacement barrel?
shrub March 27th, 2008, 05:45 AM

has anyone heard of (or ordered from) http://www.modelguns-worldwide.com/
they say there guns fire, field strip exactly like the real thing.
rifter March 27th, 2008, 07:48 PM

What would be the best blank firer to buy from wellingtonsurplus.com to convert to .22 the colt python fires 9mm blanks would
the .22 bullets fit in the magazine? Also what could be used for a replacement barrel?
The revolvers would be easier to convert than the semi-automatics, I'd imagine. I've never tried it. You could insert a piece of
6mm ID, 9mm OD (1.5mm wall) pipe into the chambers to accomodate a .22 round, perhaps? You may have to drill into the
chamber with a 9mm bit if 9mm blank chambers aren't straight wall.
Snake_Eyes April 2nd, 2008, 11:10 PM

It's possible to do with a cap gun and a starter pistol. I got these pictures from the book "Zips, Pipes, and Pens" but sadly it
doesn't show you how to make them.
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/6334/italyqn2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/5528/starteroz8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
paul88 April 4th, 2008, 06:15 PM

How about drilling out the chambers of the revolvers and inserting .22 cal barrel liners? The strength from the chamber already
there with the strong barrel liner should work fine I would imagine.
Snake_Eyes April 4th, 2008, 10:13 PM

I was looking at this book I have, "Zips, Pipes, And Pens - Arsenal of Improvised Weapons" and i print screened these
pictures for everyone to see. Looks like a cap gun did work in this case.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2089/starterqm3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2512/italyod7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Charles Owlen Picket April 5th, 2008, 11:43 AM

A word of warning on this. ANYONE who has hammered a metal of non-crystal aligned matrix will notice that after a time the
metal starts to crack. While a softer metal will stand up to impact force for several blows, it begins micro structural cracks that
lengthen & widen over time.
While a cylinder or barrel will stand impact for one or several blows it should not be misconstrued to be impervious to repeated
firings. That is the whole purpose of x-ray photography examination in firearm's firms R & D labs.
It IS true that the shorter the barrel, the less the pressure built up within, the cylinder is a primary receptacle of pressure &
every effort should be made to understand the nature of that pressure within. A blank gun was NEVER designed to withstand
the pressures built up to propel a bullet.
That cylinder was NOT designed through milling methods specific to strengthening the material from the inside out. It was
merely cut to LOOK like a revolver cylinder.
paul88 April 5th, 2008, 01:10 PM

I would hope that the purpose of making something like this was to use for project purposes or simply to use it and throw it
away. As you said Charles, they are not intended for bullets! I would MAYBE fire 12 rounds through it then toss it.
shrub April 6th, 2008, 02:05 AM

would a replica gun ie non blank firing gun work the same way
Hirudinea April 6th, 2008, 07:21 PM

It seems that any converted blank firer should be treated like the old "Liberator" pistol, used as a simple, expedient weapon
to get a real gun from someone else.
paul88 April 7th, 2008, 03:25 AM

I agree Hirudinea, Also I dont think a replica gun would work either because they, like blank firers are made cheaply, nothing
else..
paul88 April 10th, 2008, 02:44 PM

My friend sent me a pic of his .22 blank converted to fire live rounds.
Im not sure what blank revolver he used but he said its an older model. The cylinder accepts .22 shorts but he uses .22lr's by
trimming the tips of the .22lr's to fit in the chamber. Also he got rid of the shitty barrel that came with the gun and welded a
.22 barrel blank in its place (rifled).
He says he has indeed fired 100+ rounds through it but checks carefully after every few shots for cracks and damage.
Link to the revolver (its the little black one)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w135/ns_soldier/gunzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.jpg
spetsnaz08 April 10th, 2008, 04:58 PM

How did he weld it inside of it? Do you apply the weld around the barrel and then place it in?
Do you put a smaller tube inside the barrel or dismount the one already in place then welt it to the inside of the gun?
Sorry for the question havent got a clue about guns.
paul88 April 10th, 2008, 07:44 PM

Well the barrel liner is made to be put inside of a barrel to refurbish the gun, for like say the rifling is fucked up, they would
put in a barrel liner. I believe that he welded the barrel in from the outside along with the inside end ( barrel end closest to
the cylinder) The barrel does not have to be that thick because the cylinder doesnt take all the explosive pressure.
The previous "barrel" was cut off and drilled out for the barrel liner to be accepted.
shrub April 13th, 2008, 03:07 AM

Where does the pressure go in a real pistol from shooting a live round.. I would think it would be more than just changing the
barrel
paul88 April 14th, 2008, 10:59 PM

do you mean a revolver or pistol? in a revolver some pressure escapes through the space between the cylinder but for the
most part it all goes forward, thus you have a projectile.
pistols work the same way but some pressure is used to blow the slide back and thus reloading the gun
shrub May 3rd, 2008, 05:54 AM

I've heard that the older blank guns are easier to convert, would this be the same for cap guns I found a nice vintage one
made out of cast iron.
paul88 May 4th, 2008, 06:48 PM

Ive thought of the same as well, for .22LR i think it would be suitable but I have not worked with it as of yet.
Im thinking the cylinder would be just a bit too brittle unless it was steel and not that shitty kind.
Do you happen to have one to mess with? If you do ill try to help
Aikidokaguy May 10th, 2008, 03:01 AM

Some of the main issues with converting any of these blank guns is pressure related obviously. Pressure exerts in all
directions, with the weak link being the bullet.
Another issue with converting is in the action of these guns. They are all straight blowback pistols and as such energy is not
being deferred in any way to other parts of the action like in a tilting barrel pistol. With a tilting barrel design, the slide brings
back the barrel(which thusly adds some mass to counter the recoil) and then the barrel gets dragged downwards slightly so as
to disengage with the locking lug on the slide.
This type of tilting action delays the opening of the action just enough to allow pressures to subside before the breech is
opened up. If the breech opens too early then a casing rupture will be the result due to high pressures.
Recoil springs in tilting designs are also much stronger than these blank guns. Keep in mind too that some of the rearward
recoil is taken up by the hammer in blank guns...which is the same with actual pistols as well.
So to sum up, the issues you would have in a conversion to larger higher pressure cartridges would include stronger
materials(seamless steel barrels, and potential steel inserts in the slide to defer energy without breaking the slide), stronger
recoil springs, and energy deferral methods incorporated in the design of the action.
If a straight blowback-only design was going to be used, then even with stronger materials added I still wouldn't use any
cartridge stronger than 32 ACP(7.65mm Browning) or 380 ACP(9mm Browning)...and this would still require a proper steel
barrel replacement, and heavier recoil spring.
Also...one other option is possible...yet volatile. The Hilti blanks use a fast burning powder in them, which could be collected
for use in slightly larger cartridges. When I say volatile though I mean it...faster burning powders increase pressures
dramatically quicker than slower burning powders...and as such could lead to not just a casing rupture but also a catastrophic
failure of a barrel wall or slide's breech face.
Experiment safely...always
Latindude_002 May 15th, 2008, 11:44 AM

Hey guys, do any of you know how much of a replica the Brocock Para (the PPK) was?
I've found that brocock revolvers like the Single action army are almost perfect copies of their real counterparts, so much so
that you can swap some parts with authentic ones, exept for the barrel.
I am semi auto illiterate, but is it plausible to swap the Brocock PPK's parts with authentic ones, thereby turning it into a proper
shooter?
Aikidokaguy May 16th, 2008, 07:46 AM

The problem will come down to the frame in many cases. The recoil energies are much greater in a pistol like the PPK in
comparison to the the blank cartridges they are intended to fire in said blank guns.
Without reinforcement something is going to break.
Fingers beware
tomu May 20th, 2008, 05:10 AM

As long as low powered cartridges like .22, .25 ACP, .32 ACP or te like are you used the zinc alloy frames will stand the stress.
Anyway the frame will just crack and not blow up, so fingers are pretty save.
Problems arise if the frame is also intentionally weakend by break points like in most german blank fire guns.
These guns are almost impossible to convert to life firing. The connection of the barrel to the frame is so feably that the barrel
will just break off the frame if someone tries to bore it out.
Setharier May 20th, 2008, 03:56 PM

Last year I turned one of my blankers to fire live 9mmPB rounds. Model was an Umarex 1911. I drilled the old cast iron barrel
nearly away, leaving only some 1-2mm of stuff on the sides and then fitted in a self made customed steel pipe with hammer.
I have fired some 20 rounds through it and it works quite well; I bought an real 1911 spring to ensure zinc slide durability for
a little longer. Still there is visible some crancks and I'm pretty sure slide will give up in couple of dozens of rounds. Magazine
is a little more tricky one, and since I found no way to increase its length, I havent hand much interest about the whole gun;
I've got a real, legal 9mm then. Nowadays the pistol is, I think, somewhere under the warehouse stuff.
Latindude_002 May 20th, 2008, 11:40 PM

Well my idea was more in the line of replacing barrel and slide assembly with that of an original gun, which can be bought
online. But I am very uninformed on that topic, so there may be a ton of reasons why it wouldn't work.
paul88 May 25th, 2008, 03:35 PM

I think it may work Latindude im not quite sure.
I suggest you just try it, let us know if it will work.
bene June 4th, 2008, 04:01 AM

Hi folks,
this is now my first post:)

A few days ago, I found an interessting link about blank gun conversion : http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/20061004/
imco/savill_en.pdf
it's nearly an instruction how to turn a blank gun into a real gun. thanks to the police:D
Regards, Bene
paul88 June 8th, 2008, 03:30 PM

Great link
Lots of good pictures.
Thanks.
ex1ge June 8th, 2008, 07:08 PM

Very nice PDF there.
On the note of PFC guns (the ones from modelguncollector), these guns operate by the hammer pushing the cartridge
forwards into the firing pin, which is located at the end of the breech, facing backwards.
This would hence make them extremely difficult to convert, and a successful conversion that would allow it to chamber and
operate live ammunition would likely result in an almighty explosion, as most are made from ABS plastic, and the "full metal"
versions are made of pot metal unsuitable to withstand any sort of live ammunition.
The strains set on the slide and frame are more akin to an airsoft gun then a real firearm.
bene June 13th, 2008, 03:02 AM

instead of conversion of a blank gun and breaking existing laws (very very bad)...take a look at the following link
http://rapidshare.com/files/122085117/GHETTOBLASTER.rar.html
I guess the images will explain everything.
pw=roguesci
paul88 June 17th, 2008, 06:42 PM

Do any of you happen to have one of those semi auto blank firers?
If so would it be any trouble to send me the pictures of the slide taken off? I have an idea for converting them to fire
WITHOUT blowing up.
Thank you

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Improvised Grenades
Log in
View Full Version : Improvised Grenades
Viper4403 June 7th, 2001, 11:25 AM

I was tooling around the other day with some empty CO2 cylinders, and got to thinking about various ways to make grenades
in the
home workshop.
Anybody have any experiences to share in this area?
I have read the NBK2000 file on those nice pull-ring grenades, but I was looking for something smaller.
Presently I plan to experiment with the CO2 shells.
What might be the best way to attach some shrapnel pieces to the outer casing?
Also, I've got a pretty good system of hollowing the tip out, but what are some common items I can stuff down into the tube
with the blackpowder?
I was thinking of BBs or perhaps even bits of tacks, but just want to make sure that it's the best option.
Viper4403
(Yes, I've read the archives)
(You NEED to STOP with the hitting the return button at the end of every line. Just type normally, and hit the return ONLY at
the END of a paragraph.
There used to be another person here who did that too, and I deleted him. Unless you want to join him in the void, stop.
Unless you WERE him....NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 07, 2001).]

You could use something like Plaster and/ Marbles/3/8" ball barrings. I wouldn't advise mixing shapnel in with you
explosive(Especially if LE). what do yo plan on using HE or LE?
------------------
Viper4403 June 7th, 2001, 04:42 PM

NBK2000 :
Sorry, it was habit. I got used to some forums where you must side-scroll to see the text in its entirety. I will refrain from
doing this in the future.
Viper4403
Viper4403 June 7th, 2001, 04:43 PM

I plan on using blackpowder as my explosive compound. If I can find any at the local gun store then I will use that, otherwise
I might make my own.
I am open to other suggestions.
----------
Viper4403

Do you realise how hard it is to make good homemade blackpowder? I made my own (in my dream http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif) using homemade charcoal and KNO3 using the CIA method but using acetone
instead of alcohol. It burns fast enough for fuses but not fast enough to explode any container such as a CO2 cartridge. If you
do make, when its dry I recomend adding a little graphite powder as it protects the powder from moisture, helps stop caking
and improves the burn rate.
Viper4403 June 7th, 2001, 06:21 PM

I'll probably be using commercial-grade blackpowder, the store will probably have it. I'll use the finest grain available so as to
ensure a fast burn rate. I can get graphite at the local hardware store I suppose.
Thanks.
Viper4403
Foodos June 7th, 2001, 06:22 PM

Shrapenel is going to work better on the outside, not the inside in any case. Adding the shit on the inside makes it so you
have that much less power to thrust the shrapanel out. You could tape, or weld, or any number of ways to place stuff on the
outside, but with a cO2 canister do you need more? The best way I can think of is Feticidal Fantasies little simple idea of
getting a jar of shrapanel, and putting the charge in the center.

i use the graphite pencils from art stores because you can choose the grade u get it in. eg. 2b, 5b, i think 8b is the best cos
its soft as fuck.
EP June 7th, 2001, 08:36 PM

Putting shrapnel inside the co2 cardridge would be stupid. Just a) tape ball bearings/short screws to the outside or b) use a
thin cardboard tube larger than the cartridge, put the cartridge in the middle and fill around it.
skunkdude June 7th, 2001, 08:53 PM

you could coat the CO2 canister in a strong glue and then leave it in a jar full of bb's over night. when you take it out in the
morning you will (hopefuly) have a bb covered cartridge.
Viper4403 June 7th, 2001, 09:13 PM

That glue sounds like a good idea. It might be similar to a normal grenade with the fragmentation shell on the outer casing.
Thanks, any more ideas?
-------
Viper4403
Mad Dog June 8th, 2001, 12:10 AM

In my dream I used a CO2 container full of smokeless powder and used scotch tape to tape some nails outside the container.
I also did the BBs and glue way, and if you are going to do it with BBs I sagest giving it a bit more glue over the BBs so thay
will be more secure. You can combine the two methods nails and BBs fore most shrapnel and tray using something more
powerful then BP.
P.S. remember nails will remain deadly over a long distance 100-150m.
------------------
Viper4403 June 8th, 2001, 09:30 AM

I will be getting blackpowder for my new confederate .44 revolver anyways, is why I am considering the use of blackpowder. I
am open to other specific suggestions however if someone has any.
What I will probably end up doing is using a strong glue (perhaps epoxy resin) as a coating and then covering with BBs or
small ball bearings, then painting over the whole thing in a dark color to hide the chrome.
--------
Viper4403
nbk2000 June 8th, 2001, 04:55 PM

I really have to wonder about the practicality of using COBs as a grenade.
Firstly, the size is very small, holding maybe a half ounce of BP. A half ounce of High Explosive would be negliable, let alone a
very Low Explosive like BP.
Second, the fuse is exposed to water, bending, the light from igniting could be seen, etc.
Third, the case breaks into several large pieces, not effectivly fragmenting. Gluing BBs to the outside won't help either since
there isn't enough force from a BP explosion to break them loose and scatter them with sufficent force to penetrate. Only high
explosives can do that.
You could use high explosives inside, but then you'd need a detonator and that'd take up a lot of the little space there is for
the explosive. Using a flame sensitive primary like AP would work, but then there's the risk of spontaneous explosion while
you're carrying it. That's already happen to one member here in his pants pocket.
So basically, anything less than 2 ounces of high explosive with a detonator to set it off isn't effective or safe.
------------------
Viper4403 June 8th, 2001, 05:52 PM

Hmmm...
What about Acetone Peroxide (AP)? Would it set off with the proper force to throw afew chunks of shrapnel?
Also, what primary (HE) compounds would be relatively easy to make, and work with sufficient quantities in a small amount
such as that?
DarkAngel June 9th, 2001, 12:50 PM

AP would certainly let the COB (COB=Co2BOMB)explode in very little and maybe a few larger pieces,But it's just to dangerous
to use AP or another primary explosive such as HMTD
You probably won't find something sufficient for it
I know you wan't to make something out of the Co2 cartridges because you have them lie in your house,but for grenades
really take something more use full just make a few crater makers and buy something as PVC pipe
------------------
DarkAngel

Mr Cool June 10th, 2001, 10:23 AM

Why not use a wide cardboard tube as the conatainer, and fill it with a castable HE such as TNP/DNT, or a plastique like ANNM/
NC, with loads of ball bearing in it (maybe 50% of the volume of the container could be ball bearings). Then set it off with a
#8 or equivalent. I think that would work pretty well.
Heavy Recoil June 10th, 2001, 01:08 PM

About shrapnal inside the explosive, shrapnal mixed with the charge wastes space. the whole of the explosive makes the
power, b.b.s will, in the mix of explosives, have the explosives forces all around it, it wont go very far if at all, compared to
shrapnal outside the charge, it waste space. Heres an experiment to try, if you are sill in doubt, fill a ballon with air and a bb,
try to pop it while the bb is in the air not touching the side of the ballon. try it again but with the bb on the bottom of the
inside of the ballon, the latter will go much farther. if you dont belive it, try it.
------------------
Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU
DarkAngel June 10th, 2001, 08:14 PM

Heavy Recoil:That's a useless example if you ask me
But your right that shrapnel inside the explosive can be a waste of space,certainly for small amounts of explosive
------------------
DarkAngel

BaDSeeD June 11th, 2001, 03:37 AM

If possible, I'd like to change the direction of this post a little. Regardless of what method you use for containing your
grenade. And however you create your shrapnel. Whether you have a partially fragmented case (eg. use and angle grinder to
cut groves into a metal pipe), or you add shrapnel to the case (gluing BB's, nails, nuts, bolts, etc to the outside), the problem
here is the explosive used inside.
Understand that if anyone were to, forwhatever reason, be in need of a hand grenade (homeland invasion..lol), you would
simply not have the time to make one and then use it. The only way to prepare for this need, is to make them, stockpile
them, and store them, for whenever this need might arise.
This requires two things. A homemade explosive, and a homemade detonator that won't degrade into an unstable, or
ineffective substance. Whatever is used, would need a fairly long shelf life.
Can we discuss what explosives can be manufactured with these properties, or ways to store them (eg. airtight storage, frozen,
etc) to get this kind of longevity?
I think this is the direction we should head, as this can not only be applied to hand grenades, but also mortars, rockets, land
mines, etc etc.
I don't think a question like this has ever been answered on the forum.... well for as long as i can remember anyhow.
------------------
BaDSeeD
nbk2000 June 11th, 2001, 08:58 AM

It certainly shows forethought to plan for a long term storage of explosive weapons, aside from the inherent legal risk of
storing them for years.
But, in response to the question, RDX, PETN, nitroglycerin gelled with nitrocellulose and 1% of calcium carbonate, ANNM in
binary storage, Picric Acid in glass or plastic, Mercury Fulminate, Nitrocellulose (wet), and that's probably about it for
"homemade" type explosives.
Storage conditions are important too. Constant cool temperature and humidity, no exposure to sunlight or air, all needed for
long storage life.
Plastic or glass bottles can be filled completely (to exclude air) and stored in a root cellar or buried in a deep, dry hole inside a
sealed box to protect it from heat and light.
It would be best to store the assembled weapons unloaded, with the explosive charges seperate from the detonators, all
ready for assembly in a few minutes. Otherwise you're asking for an unexpected blast.
------------------
Mexican Pizza June 11th, 2001, 11:19 AM

damn dude, do you have a death wish? messing with that kinda sh*t will get you seriously hurt. and why would you want to
make gernades anyways? they are just too dangerous if you ask me....

Thank you NBK, now that was helpful. And i understand the bit about the detonators and the explosive filler. Screwing on a
detonator that is kept in a seperate cache would take a minimal amount of time, and increase the saftey of the storage
substantially.
As to the last response. A hand grenade is no more dangerous than the explosives we all discuss on this board. What is the
point of having any kind of device at hand, if you don't have the explosive to make it functional? Thats about as handy as a
rifle with no ammo. And one of my favorite sayings
Do you know what a gun without ammo is?

A club.
The same applies to any other improvised weapon that requires an explosive charge.
------------------
BaDSeeD

Will NM last 10 years in storage? I'd also heard it decomposes by itself, or is this just in the presence of light? What exactly
stops storage of ANNM? Aside from seperation, why is it unsuitable?
Double Base Smokeless Powder should last for ever in storage, it's apparently stable, powerful and cap sensitive.
Would an ammo box be a good storage container? They're strong, water and air tight and available cheap from military
surplus.

For a primary try DDNP. It's not too hard to make, and is worth the extra effort if you ask me. It'll store for a long time, and is
powerful. Or just make up a batch of HMTD and fill the detonators when you need to (a few weeks or so before would be OK).
EGDN is apparently better in storage than NG, and will also gel NC. You can then mix in HE's such as TNT, TeNN, RDX, PETN etc
to form explosives with plastc properties, that will be very easy to load. Sealing the container will prevent evapouration of the
EGDN.
But if you're going to make lots and stockpile them, AN based HE's would be better due to their low cost and ease of
preparation. Maybe something with AN (75%), Al (10%), a bit of wax (5%), and DNT (10%). That should work pretty well, be
stable and easily detonatable. Or something like C-1. Easy to make, not extremely costly, stable, cap sensitive, and easy to
handle and load.
Or try gelling NM with NC, and adding lots of TNP. Someone here said that TNP was very soluble in NM, and it will make it cap
sensitive. This should be an interesting explosive.
I'd avoid powders, they're harder to load to high densities.
Yes, when the shrapnel is in the explosive, the pressure is equal all around. But the pressure only equalises by going
outwards, and they will go fast.
If you don't believe me fill a pipe with TNP or other HE and loads of BB's, and detonate it. They'll fly. But yes, it would be
better to have them all on the outside from the point of view of range, it's just harder unless you weaken a metal case to
make shrapnel.
EventHorizon October 16th, 2001, 11:02 AM

Sorry to bring up an old post, but it hit on a few questions I had.
I had an idea to fill a plastic container with ANNM, making a cap well and a hole in the container with a thin, ~1/32",
polyethylene cover under the hole and completely seal it. This would be so that when you wanted to use it, just slit the poly,
insert the cap and seal it with some kind of compound (window caulking, 2 part 5min epoxy putty, blue tack, etc.). I'm just
wondering about the "shelf life" of ANNM. As far as I know, the only reason ANNM becomes weaker with storage is because of
moisture.
------------------
"Sex at age 90 is like trying to shoot pool with a rope." George Burns
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
BoB- October 17th, 2001, 01:44 AM

For long storage life "grenades" that can be assembled in minutes, you cant go wrong with low explosives, the mix of double-
based smokeless powders, and black powders used by the unabomber killed 3 people, my memory sucks, but I think he was
using lines of nails taped to the outside of the pipebombs.
------------------
It lets you to blame someone else.

I'm more interested in the shelf life of ANNM when completely sealed from air/moisture. A 'friend' would like to assemble
some charges so when they get the itch for a nice detonation they can grab a charge and go. 'They' have made and stored
small film can size charges for several weeks but saw a noticable decrease in power from fresh ones. Does anyone know of
someone who has made and stored ANNM in sealed PVC casings for an extended period of time, say several months?
As far as grenades are concerned, if someone were to make one it would be best to use sling shot ammo aligned on tape and
wrapped around a PVC charge of HE.
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
nbk2000 October 17th, 2001, 12:24 PM

I'm seeing a PVC pipe with removable end caps sealed with wax. The AN is sealed inside a plastic bag, with the NM also in a
seperate plastic bag within the AN bag.
The detonator is in one end, inside of the AN, the other end holds the NM.
To use, remove a cap, puncture the NM bag with an ice pick, replace the cap, and by the time one gets to the site, it'll have
mixed into ANNM.
------------------
10fingers October 17th, 2001, 09:53 PM

How about Amatol, a mixture of TNT and AN. I would think that the TNT would seal the AN from moisture. It has been used in
the military so it must have storage stability.
Double base smokeless powder would also be good. Being in the form of a grained powder I don't think you could achieve
good density. Also I read somewhere that graphite is added to smokeless powders to prevent detonation in the barrel of a
gun. Supposedley the graphite reflects the infrared radiation.
EventHorizon October 17th, 2001, 11:23 PM

What kind of power would DBSP acheive when initiated via cap when turned into a liquid and successively poured into a
container (shrinks when drying) letting the acetone evaporate?
Thanks all.
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
nbk2000 October 18th, 2001, 01:03 AM

Equal to, or greater than, TNT. BTW, if you use camphor instead of acteone, you can make a plastic form of NC. The original
celluloid plastic used eakly nitrated NC, but I'm sure if you used highly nitrated NC, that you'd be able to form solid plastic
charges that'd be highly explosive.
Below is a quick OCR'd copy of the original US patent #105,338.
================================================== ==============
Our invention consists, first, of so preparing pyroxyline that pigments and other substances in a powdered condition can be
easily and thoroughly mixed therewith before the pyroxy line is subjected to the action of. a solvent; secondly, of mixing with
the pyroxyline so prepared any desirable pigment, coloring matter, or other material, and also any substance in a powdered
state which may be vaporized or liquefied and converted into a solvent of pyroxyline by the application of beat; and,. thirdly,
of -subjecting the compound so made to heavy pressure w hile heated; so that the least practicable proportion of solvent may
be used in the production of solid 'collodion and its compounds.
The following is a description of our process: First, we prepare the pyroxyline by grinding it in water until it is reduced to a fine
pulp by mcaus of. a machine similar to those employed in grinding paper-pulp. Second, any suitable white or coloring pigment
or dyes, when desired, are then mixed and thoroughly ground with the pyroxyline. pulp, or any powdered or granulated
material is incorporated that may be adapted, to the purpose of the manufacture. While the ground pulp is still wet we mix
therewith finely-pulverized gum-camphor in about.the proportions of one part (by weight) of the camphor to two parts of the
pyroxyliue when in a dry state. These proportions may -be somewhat varied with good results: The gum-camphor may be
comminuted by grinding in water, by pounding, or rolling; or, if preferred, the camphor may be dissolved in alcohol or spirits of
wine, and then precipitated by adding water, tho alcohol leaving the camphor and uniting with the water, when both the alcohol
and the water may be drawn off, leaving the camphor in a very finelydivided state. After the powdered camphor is thoroughly
mixed with the wet pyroxyline pulp and the other ingredients, we. expel the water as far sae possible by straining the mixture
and subjecting it to an immense pressure in a perforated vessel. This leaves the mixture in a. comparatively solid and dry
state, but containing sufficient moisture to
prevent the pyroxyline from burning or exploding during the remaining process. Third, the mixture is then placed in a mold of
any appropriate form, which is heated by steam or by any convenient method, to from 1500 to 3()00 Fahrenheit, to suit the
proportion of camphor and the size of the mass, and is subjected to.a heavy pressure in a hydraulic or other press. The heat,
according to the degree used, vaporizes or liquefies the camphor, and thus converts it into. a solvent of the pyroxyline. By
introducing the solvent in the manner here described, and using heat to make the solventactive, and pressure to force it into
intimate contact every particle of the pyroxy. line, we are able to use a less proportion of this or any solvent which depends
upon heat for its activity-than has ever been known heretofore. After keeping the mixture under beat and pressure long
enough to complete the soivent actioa throughout the rtiass it is cooled while still under pressure, and them taken out of. the
mold. The product is a solid about the consistency of sole-leather, but which subsequently becomes as bard as horn or bone
by the evaporation of the camphor. Before the camphor is evaporated the material is easily softened by. heat, and may be
molded into any desirable form, which neither changes nor appreciably shrinks- in bardening.
We are aware that camphor made into a solution with alcohol or other solvents of camphor lras been used in a liquid state as
a solvent of xyloidiue. Such use of camphor as a solvent of pyroxgline we disclaim.
------------------
SofaKing October 18th, 2001, 12:00 PM

Nails would make good shrapnel, the finishing kind with small heads would be best. Small (equal to diameter) lenghs of rebar
would be best, you could harden them too for added penetration or drill and fill with a poison (ricin) to be especially visous
(sp).
Couldn't you use RDX (if you can get it) straight and some from of high temp incendiary ignition system to forgo the use of
primarys. That way no priming needed and ther're stored ready to use.
What about firebombs ala the saxon video, maybe improved upon a bit. Use ether(nbk's idea) for the fuel and maybe a
better low explosive (maybe not), and a grenade style ignition as opossed to the fuse.
Another idea is HCN grenades (also saxon) they could easily have as much killing power and store nicely. They could be made
to explode like a pressure bottle device, wich would create a instant cloud that disperses quickly (so you don't get dead) but
the cynaide salt (Na or K) might not all be converted to gas. Some sort of delay is a must. You might even be able to make
small bag type ones (familiar with bomb bags ?) just sqeeze the small inner bag and then be somewhere else.
That's all I got for now.
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Shaped Charges
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View Full Version : Shaped Charges
Demolition February 28th, 2001, 04:38 AM

Lets just say that if I wanted to blow a door open could you place a High Explosive in a piece of thick angleline which then
would be taped near the lock and set off.The thick angleline would direct the force of the explosion momentarily towards the
lock and blow the door open.Could ANNM be used as the explosive?Has anyone ever tried this and if so what was the result.I
am going to experiment with this just as soon as I get some Nitromethane.
Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited February 28, 2001).]
nbk2000 February 28th, 2001, 06:34 AM

What you've described isn't a shaped charge, rather a tamped charge.
A shaped charge would be the explosive on the outside of the angle iron, directing the vaporized metal into the target.
A tamped charge is were a mass of material temporarily resists the explosives force long enough for the majority of the force
to be directed into the target.
If you use an angle iron as tamper it will fly off fast as a bullet and be more of a hazard to you than to the door. Here's a US
patent # for an easy to make tamper that disintegrates into nothing while effectively directing the explosive force.
4,628,819 Disintegrating tamper mass
Go to http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html and enter the above number with no commas, setting field for "patent
numbers" and date to "all years".
------------------
Demolition February 28th, 2001, 06:54 AM

Thanks nbk, http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
Demolition
blackadder February 28th, 2001, 01:39 PM

I think that ANNM would be better used in large quantities, to blow the door down. If you wanted to take out the hinges,
couldn't you use AP?
Agent Blak February 28th, 2001, 04:09 PM

If you were trying to go through a "Dead Bolt" could you not just "Cheese some Cordite(Det-Cord)" around thelock with the
asistance of some duct tape. you could use det cord to cut the hinges off the door.
Just and Idea.
------------------
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Demolition March 3rd, 2001, 03:05 AM

I was just wondering if 'Plaster of Paris' could be used as the material surrounding the high explosive in tamped charges?
When set off would it turn to dust but still momentarily direct the blast to open the door?All help is greatly appreciated.
Demolition
nbk2000 March 3rd, 2001, 01:58 PM

You could use just Plaster, but the patent uses the plaster just as a binder for the steel media which provides the mass
needed to resist the explosion.
Plaster by itself is very light so it may not provide enough mass to adequately direct the explosives force.
If you can, buy a sack of lead shot of the smallest size, something like sand. That would be perfect for using in the
disintegrating tamper.
------------------

Foxtrot83 March 4th, 2001, 04:37 AM
Sounds like your trying to plan an armoured truck heist (put the ANNM on the door we got 3 secs., Boooom. Were in, were in,
go, go, go...), but aren't we all. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
~Semper Fi~
Foxtrot83
Foodos March 5th, 2001, 02:31 AM

Heat had a nice tactic for taking an armoured car, ramming it with a diself truck...muahahah
that was a good movie btw
SofaKing March 5th, 2001, 04:16 PM

What about sandbags ? Sure are easy enough.
Foxtrot83 March 5th, 2001, 05:11 PM

Sandbags makes an excellent tamp but not for a door (depending on position). He'd have to hold it up with his hands or
something similiar which would take too much time to set up.
------------------
~Semper Fi~
Foxtrot83
blackadder March 6th, 2001, 05:24 PM

If you think about it, it could be done pretty fast, if he wanted to break in to somewhere quickly.
He would have previously made the charge with duct tape stuck to it in a fashion that all he had to to was put the charge
against the door. He would go up to the door and put the charge to the bottom hinge of it, put a sandbag over it, and then
light fuse, get back. I don't think that he would have to hold the sandbag in place, that could be dangerous anyway.
Oh yeah, and there's always another way in to a place. You could always pick the door's lock, or kick the door down, or go
through a window, smash a window, etc. As someone once said, you don't have to do everything with explosives (wiping you're
arse with AP).
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited March 06, 2001).]
SATANIC March 9th, 2001, 12:02 AM

check the condition of the door. most residential and many commecial premises have wooden framed doors. the easiest way
in here would be a sledge hammer. otherwise a window would definately be easy.
sadsakjoel March 10th, 2001, 11:36 PM

OK demolition, what the fucks happening? The weir?

I'm thinking maybe the toilet block.The weir sounds good,but knowing my luck some homeless guy would probably get
washed away down stream and drown. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Demolition

must we use high expolsives for everything? (err...dont answer that) just get an oxy-acetylene torch and cut the hinges off.
safe, proven, effective...
blackadder March 11th, 2001, 06:48 PM

or pick the lock
SMAG 12B/E5 March 17th, 2001, 12:01 AM

If you still want to try a liniar shaped charge, DuPont sells a product once called Data Sheet, PETN with an elastoplastic binder
in 1/4 by 4 inch configueration. Strips can be cut and laminated over lengths of copper tubing creating a shaped charge effect.
The ends of the tubing can be capped, the tube pressurized, creating a unit suitable for underwater work. I am certain that a
suitable improvised version of this system is well within the capabilities of members of this group.
Note: I have used 60 grain/ft detonating cord for various activities. Don't overestimate it's strength. There are too myths
about det cord floating around.
SMAG 12B/E5 March 17th, 2001, 01:50 PM

Your question is too general. There are too many variables...Steel alloy...thickness...configueration and...tamping...detonating
cord strength...number of lays or wraps. In breaching doors, I always "sweeten" the reinforced areas with C-4.
shady mutha April 3rd, 2001, 05:54 AM
Shaped charges can be subdivided into three classifications:conical shaped charges;linear shaped charges;flexible linear
shaped charges.The subdivisions have evolved as a result of their particular applications.They were first analyzed and tested
in 1888 by Charles E Monroe.
The housing or sheath and the cavity liner may be of one homogeneous material.Cavity liners are most often made of
copper,lead,silver,and alumium.Thier primary purpose is to supply a source of heavy molecules that can be accelerated toward
the target by the high pressure and shock waves generated by the high or secondary explosive core.RDX PETN HNS,and DIPAM
are the most often used core explosives.upon impact with the target,these high-velocity molecules transfer tremendous
amounts of kinetic energy to the target,causing it to deform.Comparative tests have shown that when all other parameters are
equal,the performance of a shaped charge can be increased or decreased by increasing or decreasing the density of the liner
material.The angle of the cavity liner varies between 45 and 90 degrees and it too is dependent upon the shaped-charge
application.The interaction of the cavity liner's wall thickness,wall taper,and radius of the apex all affect performance.
shady mutha April 3rd, 2001, 07:54 PM

The explosive phenomenon is generally described as the interaction the detonation products and cavity liner material
emanating at high velocity from a shaped charge as the explosive detonates.The detonation releases large quantities of gas
almost instantaneously under extreme pressure-as much as several millions of pounds per square inch.The shock waves
emanating from the lower portion of a shaped charge converge at a point on the charge centerline and cause an extreme
concentration of pressure along the axis of convergence.These directed shock waves,together with the products of explosive
decomposition and the metal molecules from the cavity liner,form the primary cutting action-the jet.
Deformation of the target material begins within 1 microsecond after the passage of the detonation front.The shock waves
produced by the expanding gases and the cavity liner material emanating from the lower portion of the shaped charge are
converging,a jet of high velocity cavity liner molecules is forming and penetration of the target is beginning.When a shaped
charge is detonated on a metal target,the jet excerts an extremely concentrated force over a very small area.This force causes
the metal to be pushed out of the way of the advancing jet by plastic flow.
Jumala April 3rd, 2001, 08:49 PM

At this site are some interesting pics of chaped charges (tank-fist warheads).
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust1.htm
simply RED October 7th, 2001, 04:34 PM

I tried a shaped charge with nitroglycerine gelled with nitrocellulose. The diamter of the cone was 26mm. The cone angle was
45degrees. The cone was made from steel sheet 0,5mm thick. The whole charge wasn't full of nitrogelly. It covered the cone
and maybe 3-4mm above it. The remaining place in the charge was full of ap putty. I detonated it from the top with
homemade N8 equivalent.
I tried it on 6-7mm steel and it didn't penetrated it.(it only punctured it not very good) (the outstand was about 1, 1/2
diameters of the cone). My question is, have someone succesufully made a shaped charge which penetrated 2-3 cm steel
without beeing more than 100mm in diameter? I will appreciate if you tell me a real construction which works and i can easily
copy.(is it necessary to use RDX,PETN of octogen or the nitroglycerine can also work)?
------------------
LIFE SUCKS... DON'T LET IT BITE!!!
Mick October 9th, 2001, 10:20 AM

the best backing "shield" for a tamped charge would be a bag of water (like a plastic shopping bag)
SafetyLast October 9th, 2001, 04:35 PM

Yeah Mick I have read about using the bag of water in a tamp charge in the Tom Clancy
book "Marine",it was a saline i.v. bag secured inside of a coffee can and a couple ounces of C-4 behind it.
This type of tamped charge would be easier and less time consuming to construct, however I think what you mean is to have
an
explosive filled cavity in a bowl shaped bag filled with water, this way upon detonation the explosive force is directed at the
target and the bag of water disintegrates with no dangerous fragments. Only problem with that is that less force is transferred
to the target than in the case of using a stronger charge body such as thin aluminum or copper.
main way to avoid getting hit by fragments is to stay down out of the fragmentation area (or "cone" as I call it), to not be in
line of sight with it, and have a long enough fuse (I never reccomend remote detonation unless your dealing with very large
ammounts of HE) <-- too expensive for what we are dealing with here.
SATANIC October 10th, 2001, 09:24 PM

i think the water would absorb too much of the explosives power, the navy might soon be using water to pack explosives in, as
it absorbs so much heat, and because when detonated, the force is absorbed by the water which travels very fast but still does
no damage. i have an article from new scientist about it, that i might scan later.

the explosive goes in all directions the water doesn't absorb it, it merely acts a deflection shield.
a piece of angle iron would work just as well as water IF you could secure it properly to the door - however you can't do this with
out alot of screwing around.
if you put a charge under water,

you get a real nice shock wave because the water doesn't absorb the presure coming from the explosive(because it can't, you
can't compress water) so what you end up with is more confinment.
example, put 50g charge of AP in a bucket of water and detonate it. what happens? the bucket gets blowen to shit.
put 50g charge of AP in a bucket of sand and detonate it. what happens? sand blows up out of the bucket, and the bucket
may split - but thats it.
reason being is sand will compress and absorb most of the shockwave because of all the air trapped between the particles of
sand.
therefore, water is better then sand because the force from the charge will bounce off the water back into the door.
xtreme July 14th, 2002, 01:28 PM

Hi all
I dont want to start a new topic because I'am "to young" on this webforum. I found some topics about Shaped Charges, but
the best place for this I think was allready locked :confused:
I going to test a small Linear Shaped Charge tomorrow.

I want use AP als the charge-explosive because I haven't stuff like RDX or TNT. The goal is not to cut a thick plate of
steel....but just a thin one (1....1.5 mm) The goal for my test is to make a straight cut in the plate. Just watching of this is
possible with te stuff I have.
For more information/foto's:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/

ShapedCharges/</a>
(copy and paste URL in browser)
First I planned to detonated the charge today......but my cell for the photocamera goes empty :(
Tommorow I buy a new cell for my photocamera. I want to film the explosion and make pictures of the results.
I hope I come with some positive results...

commands are welcome.....
sorry for my bad english :rolleyes:
Tyler_Durden July 14th, 2002, 01:46 PM

looks good. if possible, can you get pics of what you are cutting, before and after?
also, how did you make/get the copper liner and that square tube??

I get all the materials straight from the shop.
I have only to cut-out the opening under the liner.
Before detonation I make pictures of every object and the "Ready to Go" setup. And I alway's make pictures of the peaces
(fragments) I can find after detonation. The movie of the explosion will pure of quality because this is an extra option on my
PHOTOcamera. This will be a simple quicktime movie.
E7 July 15th, 2002, 12:18 AM

i'm just thinking out loud, but wouldn't you be able to replace the square tube with the disentigrating tamper mass described
above thus compounding the benefits of the tamped charge and the shaped charge? I think i need to do some testing.

I must admit, that cut ally box section and brass angle does make for a very presentable finished product. I do wonder if the
90* angle of the brass will be effective though.
Also, don't forget your standoff!

Ok.....Linear Shaped Charge test done
Results......hmmmmmmm, not as expected....but nice (some interesting results) for first time, I think :) <a href="http://
www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/</
a>
* There is a quicktime movie of detonation (pure quality...used just the extra option of PHOTOcamera to record quicktime
movie)
The charge wash filled with 20 gram AP (little pressed....not realy much because....we all no why <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
Plate to be cut: 3 plates metal 0.8mm (2.4 mm total)
De explosion sounds differend compared with my "normal" AP detonations.

It sounds more like APAN but more powerfull.
The plates.....just welded. Only on the upper plate I think the liner hits it when I look the traces on it.
The book under plate.....nice interesting 3 (?!?!) cuts.
The stone (hard beton, not easy to brake) under book......destroyed !
It looks that the power of the blow wash not directed on the plate but
much lower.
Ok.....next time.
I think that I use real cupper inplace of brass what is much harder.
I thing I make the corner of V-Shape smaller then the 90 degrades I used now.
(must pictures I see of LSC used a 90 deg. corner :confused: )
So....If you have some tips, command, experience.....please, shared it with us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
nbk2000 July 16th, 2002, 09:07 AM

I couldn't download the movie, but did get all the pictures.
Some comments, in no particular order:
Brass is a poor material for a liner. You want materials that are soft and malleable. Aluminium (soda can), lead, or
unannealed (soft) copper. Brass and steel are unsuitable, being too "hard".
The liner was too thick. It seems it's projecting as a solid slug, rather than liquifying into a cutting jet. THIN is the key. A
millimeter (under 0.01") is good. You can only use thick liners if you have enough explosive behind them to overcome the
resistance.
I don't see anything wrong with the liner angle, just the material and thickness of it.
AP is a poor choice for any kind of cutting charge. It just doesn't have the VOD needed. Anything below 7,000 m/s is too slow.
And AP is only around 5,500 m/s. Picric acid or TNT is the minimum I'd use. I don't think even ANNM would be suitable for an
LSC.
The target (metal plates) was only dented, and not cut, probably because it was sitting on a flexible material that absorbed
the impact. The book absorbed the majority of the shock, allowing the plates to remain intact, while transferring that shock to
the inflexible stone which shattered.
Try the next test with the target sitting directly on the stone. Then the plates should be torn, if not cut.
Did you plasticize the AP? Because it's obviously not a simple compressed powder sitting with the ends open.
Uniformity of explosive density is VERY important! Any voids, gaps, or variations causes changes in the shock front, which (in
turn) causes changes in the jet formation which results in failure.
Look in the topic "NEW LSC DESIGN" (God, I hate ALL CAPS! :mad: ) where I link to a precision LSC design manual written by
the experts at the US governments weapons labs. They go into great detail about all the variations of LSC design. Read it and
learn from the masters. If the link's dead, download the '99 High Explosives archive PDF from the Forum FTP. I included it in
there.
I noticed that one plate (presumably the top one) was partially cut for half it's length. LSC's have a "start up" distance, which
is at least 3-5cm, during which the shock front transitions from a radial to planular form. Until it does this, there's no real jet
formation, so you need to account for this by making your charges a bit longer than the intended cut.
Obviously yours was, but it's using a lower velocity explosive, so the start up distance is increased.
Pick a solid target next time. Multiple plates is equivalent to attacking laminated armor. Same thing with spaced plates. To
test an LSC, you need a homogenous target.
And make it easier on yourself when you first start out. Use soft aluminum. You'll be more encouraged to keep experimenting
by a deep gouge in a soft target, then a thin scratch in a tough one. :D
I like the angle in box pictures. Saves me from having to make them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Keep blasting.

Thanks nbk2000,
That's a lot of usefull information ! :)
I don't have all the chemicals to make HE with VOD's over 7000 m/s (jet :) ) :(
I think of trying making HDN (HexamineDiNitrate).
Is HDN better for LSC than AP ?
And after making HDN I can give a try to make RDX with distilled HNO3 (have 65% and want to concentrate this to ....99%, I
hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
I did not plasticize AP jet. I am buzzy top make the binder from blu-tak but it takes some time to vaporate the gasoline.
The caps of the LSC where closed with a 2 component stuff what becomes very hard in a short time (10 minutes) and the AP
self a little pressed (scarry to press the AP to much)
Next time.....thin cupper liner, target of one aluminum plate, target resting directly on stone (hard surface) and......perhaps a
better charge than AP
many thanks !
To be continued..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Mr Cool July 16th, 2002, 03:41 PM

I couldn't download the movie either, apparently I don't have a suitable decompressor or something. So my fault, not yours I
think.
It does look very nice, although I am also a bit worried about the angle. It should work, but smaller would be better. I'd use
about 50*, but then it wouldn't fit in the other thing and make that nice looking finished product.
I'm sure the main problem would be the lightly compressed CTAP, I doubt it had more than 3.5-4 km/sec VoD. HDN might
work, but it's not very easy to detonate. ANNM would be best for those with limited chems., it can get up to around 6.5 km/sec
and is easy to press into a uniform charge. Easy to detonate too. It'd certainly be better than anything you can do with CTAP,
and the ingredients can normally be found with a bit of looking. RDX would be great if you can make it, or NG or almost any
nitrate ester. But the explosive is definitely your main problem.

Mr Cool
Thanks for info
Yes, a smaller shape will not fit into the material I used now.
And most pictures I see of LINEAR Shaped Charges are something like 90%
Only for Round Shaped Charges I read much of the 42% angle
This week I go to try to make HDN and/or RDX and searching for cupperplate for the liner
I made an AVI-file of the (quicktime) movie.

It's much bigger compared with the quicktime and I have not much space by geocities. I have plenty space on my own
servers.....but that makes it a little to easy to find my location :)
The AVI-Movie (sorry....pure quality) :http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/LSC_20gramAP.avi
AfterRain July 24th, 2002, 11:09 PM

I've found a nice lil .gif movie of how the SC works when its exploded
<a href="http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/animation/explode/shaped.html" target="_blank">http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/

animation/explode/shaped.html</a>
<img src="http://www.logwell.com/tech/shot/img10.gif" alt=" - " />
[ July 25, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]
Chris Shiherlis July 27th, 2002, 11:54 AM

Xtreme compliments on your LSC, its fuckin pretty.
If you had used a secondary high explosive you probably had made a very effective LSC.
Even with that brass liner, which is not such a bad choice after all. There are even LSCs made with iron liners (go to the topic
"Busting my safe"; this guy McCoy which is apparently such a pain in the ass he was banned by NBK :) gave a link to a few
usefull sites e.g. a site which show a LSC called Resaflex, made from a iron liner and DBSP :) ).
Of course lead, copper or aluminium liners are better, that is, they need less powerfull explosives to produce a jet. I would
recommend a aluminium liner about 1mm thick, 90 degree angle: easy to find, cheap and easily formed jet. I use it too, it
penetrates at least 4mm construction steel using a NM explosive, about 250 gram/meter (and thicker aluminium decreases
the penetration greatly just as a 1mm brass liner)
But using AP with a low VoD and power is useless. It wont produce a jet out of ANY liner (not even out of aluminium foil).
So the effects produced by your first LSC are just.......caused by the Monroe effect. And maybe some piercing by fragments.
Im sorry to say. But no jet or slug is formed at all, just fragments and the Monroe effect (And the Monroe effect is even
weakened by the liner: should you have used a plastic liner just to get the V-shape the effects on the metal plates would have
been greater).
And the strange effects on the book are caused also just like the Monroe effect by colliding shockwaves, reenforcing each
other at some points (getting concentrated at some points). And subsequently fracturing/shearing (not cutting) the target at
specific points. Apparently your set up creates 3 points at which the shockwaves get concentrated (just like with shockwave
refraction tape SRT or fracture tape).
And the explosives suitable: any secondary high explosive: TNT, RDX, DBSP and ALSO ANNM. The NM explosives all have a
high VoD and great power. Many exceed the power and VoD of TNT.
The only drawback of using ANNM is that the AN crystals produce maybe some voids/airgaps in the explosive composition,
which should be avoided if possible, but are not much of a problem anyhow. So.....
And the "start up" problem of LSCs NBK mentions, got nothing to do with the AP. AP produces no jet what so ever so there is
no start up distance.
The start up distance is the distance at which the jet reaches its maximum penetration. And this is about after 10 cm. The
first 10cm when a jet IS produced (with a real LSC) and the penetration into the steel target slowly increases to 100 %. It got
something to do with the shockwave angle of the explosive hitting the liner, and subsequently the angle and speed of the jet
produced. No jet, no cutting effect, no start up effect (as with AP).
And just some questions: why use a blasting cap if you use AP?
And the two component stuff you use to cap your LSC with, doesnt it get hot when it hardens? (with the danger of setting the
AP off).
And why not use a plastic container instead of aluminium? Saves a lot of shrapnel coming your way :) .
Anyway, I really am looking forward to your next experiment. Use a real explosive and you will enjoy it.
(Watch it with the innuendo's there Chris. Bottle washers are anything but irreplaceable here. NBK)
[ July 27, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

My second LSC is underway (almost ready)
I have a much better liner, very thin soft copper (36 Gauge/ .005)
I put this on a 90 deg. plastic corner (1.5 x 1.5) because the copper alone is to easy to bend.
The secundairy charge will be much better too: ANNM
I have only to make some primary (booster): AP to detonate the ANNM

I have to little AP at the moment :)
oh yea, your questions.

No, the 2 component stuff I use (expensive, but good) doesn't get warm as most 2 component stuf works.
The reason I use a blastingcap is that detonated AP by a cap have more power than ignited by flame. Cap is filled with MF
(Mercury Fulminate) what is stronger than AP
so....to be continued, pictures will be on my site and let you people know when detonated/uploaded <img border="0" title=""
[ July 27, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: xtreme ]
Boob Raider August 26th, 2002, 12:45 AM

I had fired a conical shaped charge by the river bank in India. One of the most impressive things I have seen (other than my
neighbours wife) :D . Anyways my core explosive was 100 g Lydite (87% Picric Acid + 8% Di NitroBenzene + 3% vasline, with
about 2% Al powder replacing some of the DNB). Its quite insensitive so I used a 10 g secondary booster charge of C-1. The
cone had an angle of 70* and was made up of about 26 gauge Cu sheet. The cast iron tube which contained the was 5" long
and 3" in Dia and 0.2" thick. The shaped charge was placed 3" away from the target(1" thick Fe plate) with the help of 3 rods
taped to the side of the tube (tripod). The charge was detonated with a homemade detonator containing 3 g of RDX and about
a g of DDNP.
Since I had a cast Fe tube I had to build a wall of loose wet bricks around it. It was set off electrically from 30 mts away behind
a big rock. I felt goose bumps all over .... it sounded so damn impressive :D . Bricks spread all around with a clean hole in the
plate also leading into the ground till about 6".
That was it. No shrapnel could be found, only marks of it in the bricks. :confused:
I was also thinking if one could mix a large amount of Pb powder (to provide the mass) from a Pb accumulator plates with
"plaster of paris" (to provide the binding) to make a tamper (NBK ... Did u mention it ....?)
Chris Shiherlis October 6th, 2002, 07:23 AM

Xtreme any progress? I'm very curious. Since your first LSC was already such a pretty one I think the new one will be very
impressive.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Flame Tra p
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Hvoroba May 22nd, 2002, 11:13 AM

I'm attempting to construct a butane based flam ethrower using a plastic butane tank for refilling gas lighters, and a simple
m e c h a n i s m . W h a t I ' m trying to figure out is how to m a k e t h e f l a m e t r a p s o t h e f l a m es wo u l d n o t g e t i n t o t h e n o z z l e a n d b a c k
into the tank . I've m a d e s o m e research and found out that the flam e t r a p s u s e d o n s h i p s t o k e e p t h e f l a m e s o n b o a r d f r o m
entering the fuel tank (luckily I'm in a nautical military school, so I have teachers to explain such things) is m a d e o f a thin
c o p p e r n e t a n d a m etal casing with holes. The copper m etal has a very h igh heat reception rate, so it recieves the flame's
h e a t . S o , d o e s a n y o n e here has any idea on how to construct one?
Thanks.
CyclonitePyro May 22nd, 2002, 11:49 AM

As long as there is no oxygen in the butane tank you have nothing to worry about. A flame trap is not nessessary. There is
only liquid butane and gaseous butane in the tank.
Anthony May 22nd, 2002, 01:07 PM

I'm of the same opinion of cyclonitepyro. However, yes passing the gas through a m etal mesh will stop the flam e from p a s s i n g
through, just like in the Davey safety mining lam p. Also , bubbling the ga s through a liquid like water would also work.
BrAiNFeVeR May 22nd, 2002, 02:31 PM

Y o u c o u l d a l s o u s e s o m e t h i n g like this:
<img src="http://www.hobbybrouwen.nl/apparaat/watersl.jpg" alt="" />
m aybe in com bination with the Cu net ...
The trouble of using water in a contrap tion, is making sure it sta ys where it's supposed to be. And if pressu re is too high, it will
blow the water out !!!
This effect m ay lessen if you use a heavier liquid, lets say Hg :D
Zambosan May 22nd, 2002, 03:22 PM

I'm pretty su re a butane flame would m elt right through a plastic fermenting airlo ck. :D
Hvoroba May 23rd, 2002, 11:19 AM

Brainfever, how am I s u p p o s e d t o u s e t h e s e ? P l e a s e e x p l a i n .
Z a m bosan, yes, it will, this is why I'm trying to build a flame trap :)
Pu239 Stuchtiger May 23rd, 2002, 05:59 PM

There is always the possibility of the heat from the flam e reaching the butane tank causin g it to burst...
BrAiNFeVeR May 23rd, 2002, 05:59 PM

LOL,
I'm not sugg esting that the flam e fron t moves up that close to the plastic thingy's, just build it in as a failsafe, should the C u
net burn through or m elt from the intense heat.
Though it will probable not work, because of high pressure of the gas ...
randomquestion May 23rd, 2002, 07:10 PM

T h e o t h e r d a y I was fooling around with some Right Guard Deodorant. Ju st shooting it through a candle. Then it burned back
towards the can, after just a second of sparying, luckily I stop pushing on the top in time, and all it did was m elt the hole in
the cap closed. Anyways, the point is that if you are going to build a butane flam e thrower like that, you deffinately need to
h a v e s o m ething to stop the flam e f r o m g o i n g b a c k i n t o t h e t a n k . S o u n d s l i k e y o u n e e d s o m e type of high pressure regulator.
EP May 23rd, 2002, 07:35 PM

W hat size of butane tank are you plan ning on using? The ones I've seen for lighters, such as this one:
(cop y a n d p a s t e )
<a href="http://www.geocities.com /extrem e p y r o 2 / 3 8 6 b o m b1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com /extrem epyro2/
3 8 6 b o m b1.jpg</a>
d o n ' t s e e m t o h a v e m uch pressure. I only got them to shoot flam e a b o u t a f o o t . I h a v e s e e n s o m e impressive pictures from
the Burning Man Festival of a flam ethrower built with a metal propane tank as the fuel source, if you wanted a decent
flam ethrower, that seem s to be the wa y to go.
<sm all>[ May 23, 2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: EP ]</sm all>
Anthony May 23rd, 2002, 08:45 PM

randomquestion, the flame will not "go back inside the can". You were in no danger besides flamable liquid having dripped
from the nozzle set fire to the top of the can (does happen), in which case the plastic parts *could* burn through and rapidly
vent the contents of the can which would be burnt. I.e your flam e thrower would go out of control. You don't need any kind of
flam e t r a p a s l o n g a s y o u r p r o p e l l a n t d o e s n ' t c o n t a i n a n o x i d i s e r a n d t h e f l a m e s f r o m the nozzle won't over heat the fuel
container.
I agree on those butane refil cans, 12-18" flam e m a x - I m ade a concealed mini flame thrower be fore with one.

So that you should know it CAN go back inside the can if you spray it for a while (20 sec+) and yes they have blown up on
people.
CyclonitePyro May 24th, 2002, 12:30 AM

There is nothing but liquid coming up from the bottom of the can, up through the straw and out the nozzle, there is no oxyg e n
at at in those cans. It is impossible for the flam e to "eat" back through the liquid into a can with no oxygen and exlplode. If
there was oxygen in the can a nd it was towards the end of the flam mible liquid so that it is sputtering up liquid m ixed with
oxygen, then there is a risk.
But you won't find any com m e rcial sprays with oxygen in the can.
SATA NIC May 24th, 2002, 02:16 AM

I have definately read stories about th at happening. (reliable newwpapers) The flam e can travel back down the can, and
apparently can explode.
I don't know how, in theory i believe it should'n t, though i suppo s e t h e r e i s a r e a s o n b e h i n d i t . O n c e t h e f l a m e g e t s b a c k t o

the can, i drop / throw them ....
Anthony May 24th, 2002, 11:01 AM

W hen was the last tim e we tru s t e d t h e e x p l o s i v e k n o w l e d g e o f a newspaper? :) It *is* im possible for the flam e t o g o b a c k
inside the can.
Yes, the one with tazer ignition.
BoB- May 26th, 2002, 04:20 AM

I f y o u f e e l l i k e p u k i n g u p $ 5 b u c k s , y o u c o u l d j u s t u s e t h e n o z z l e a s s e m bly (m odified for full flow of course) from a p r o p a n e
torch, which already h ave flash-back arrestors built in.
I'm with Anthony on this one, aeresol cans cant just explode, they have to heated beyond the safe pressure levels of the can,
or penetrated. Usually some kid chucks one in a fire to watch it explode, and then accidently gets m o s t o f t h e e x p l o s i o n
him self, then m a k e s u p s o m e bullshit story for his mom and his doctors.
xyz May 26th, 2002, 04:59 AM

There would have to be some air in the tank before they started to pressurize it with hydrocarbon, butane, propane whatever.
Hvoroba May 27th, 2002, 01:11 PM

T h e t a n k i s a b o u t 1 0 c m at height, 3-4 cm in diameter, made of plastic. It costs about 5 NIS, which is about 1.25 US dollars,
so it really pays off. From reading the above posts, I decided to use a double copper trap and also a water trap with
appropriate sizes so it will resist the gas pressure. My question now is, should I locate the copper trap before or after the
nozzle? If it is located before the nozzle it will not bother the burning gas stream , so the gas will go straigh t forward , however
there is a disadvantage, since t h e s p r a y i n g n o z z l e m i g h t e x p a n d f r o m t h e i m m ense heat and not function properly.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > g u n q u e s t i o n s a n d stuff
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View Full Version : gun questions and stuff
A-BOMB May 23rd, 2002, 10:38 AM

I h a v e a q u e stion, does anyone here know how m uch weight it takes to fire a #209 shotshell or #11 m usket prim er? And I
found this site here that sells all kinds of .50 BMG bullets(AP,API,APIT) <a href="http://www.okiebigbores.com "
target="_blank">www.okiebigbores.com </a> . And there was some other things I wanted to say bu t can't remem ber so I'll put
them in later. Well I remem ber what I wanted to say no w. First Anthony, I wanted to know the foot/pounds or inch/pounds of
power I would need to fire a those prim ers so I wouldn't have to waste tim e and money trying out different springs to find one
that will work in some g r e n a d e f u s e s I ' m m a k i n g .
<sm all>[ May 23, 2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]</sm all>
Anthony May 23rd, 2002, 12:53 PM

Do you m ean like a static load on the prim er, or an im pact? The first would be to put a firing pin against the prim er and slowly
and gradual increase the weight on it until the prim er fired, I'm willing to bet it wo uld be rather inconsistant. The second would
be better rated as a unit of energy, e.g 0.5J fires the prim er reliably.
W ithout knowing what you want to do with it it's not quite clear what you m e a n ?
00Buckshot June 14th, 2002, 01:03 AM

I h a v e a g u n question, for you hunters out there.
I'm t h i n k i n g a b o u t b u y i n g a g u n .
I live in Canada and gun control is strict. And I want to legally own the gun, which limits me to hunting rifles, and sh o t g u n s .
W hat I want to know is which hunting rifle would best fit the purp o s e o f a n " i m provised" sniper rifle? Of course I wou ld buy a
real expensive scope to put on the rifle. W hich hunting rifle shoots the farthest and the straightest?
I would love to own a .50 sniper rifle.
Energy84 June 14th, 2002, 01:23 AM

Personally, I'd choose a high quality .303 British. My grandfather had one and now m y dad has two of them . They a re my rifle
of choice. They are extrem ely accurate , with the right amm o of course. O ne of the rifles that my dad has had the barrel cut a
few inches shorter and has som e weird s t a m p i n g s o n i t . T h e s t a m ps on the receiver, barrel and trigger guard all have different
d a t e s ( o l d e s t b e i n g 1 917, and newest being 1941 I think). It's a nice rifle though , with the original long range open sights (I
forget what they're ca lled, but you always see them on old vintage guns), my uncle m a n a g e d t o s c o r e a h e a d s h o t o n a y o u n g
elk at over 350yrds with it!
Aaron-V2.0 June 14th, 2002, 02:02 AM

One I've had experience with is 8m m . 0 6 ( 3 0 . 0 6 C a s i n g n e c k e d o u t t o f i t a n 8 m m Mauser bullet) it's a wildcat in my area but
I've read about it in a few sm alltim e m agazines. The flight path is very flat and the rifle I owned didnt get any major dropping
until 500 yards or mo re.
The only downside is if your not set up for reloading your am mo the price of $1.00 a round is outrageous. <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Zyklon_B June 14th, 2002, 02:38 AM

00Buckshot, you can get a restricted firearm s l i c e n s e a n d b u y A R 1 5 ' s a n d h a n d g u n s t o o , i t s n o t t h a t h a r d .
zaibatsu June 14th, 2002, 04:47 PM

Thats strange, m a y b e m y e y e s are fucked up, but I tho ught that this was the *IMPROVISED WEAPO NS* section. There are
plen tly of gunBBs out there, ask at one of them , t h e r e s b o u n d t o b e a C a n a d i a n o n e o u t t h e r e . T o p i c C LO SED!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Air Guns
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View Full Version : Air Guns
Sako September 20th, 2001, 11:59 PM

Hello everyone
Ive been planning to build an air gun for some time now, and I have access to a machine shop once again.
I was wondering what is best, a spring-piston gun or a pre-charged pneumatic?
Spring-piston air guns look to have fewer parts and less accurate parts than a pre charged gun, making it easier to build.
Does pcps have any advantages besides multiple shots?

Multiple shots would be nice but Im planning on using 250 psi. so I dont think I would get very many shots off that.
If I was to go with a spring-piston gun, how powerful should the main spring be?
Thank you for any help
[This message has been edited by Sako (edited September 20, 2001).]
Agent Blak September 21st, 2001, 10:52 AM

PCP is good for the Superman like high, almost nothing can put you down. it is the who;e reason for the invention of "non-lethal weapons."
------------------
zaibatsu September 21st, 2001, 04:18 PM

You've forgotten whats the easiest (imo) type of airgun to make - the pump-up pneumatic. I'd post more on this, but don't have the time at the moment, I'll post more later if
you want.
250psi isn't going to do a lot, I'd say use a pressure of around 500psi, in .22 calibre, with a 20" barrel, that should give you around 12ftlb, more if you used a heavier pellet. I'd
say is you could make something that could stand these pressures, then a resevoir capacity of 1"^3 with a pressure of 1000psi would be best, as it would give a high power of
26ftlb.
Pump-Up Pneumatics are pretty easy to make I think, I've finalised my design for one, and it doesn't look to have a lot of different parts, and those that it does have are easy
to machine.
------------------
Sako September 21st, 2001, 07:42 PM

The only problem I can see with using 500 psi. is how can I get such pressure?
Ive seen small compressors that will pump up to 250 psi. and thats the highest Ive seen.
May be I will use a paintball gun tank as a reservoir.
Zaibatsu- can you please post your information?
Pump-Up Pneumatics, how much pressure does the pump produce?
zaibatsu September 21st, 2001, 08:06 PM

Right, pressure of the pump...
Here is the formula you use - P1V1=P2V2.
So, if we want to fill a reservoir with volume 1"^3 with 1000psi, then we already have P2(1000psi) and V2 (1"^3)
We also know P1, as its just air at standard pressure, which is around 14.4psi. so we also now have P1, so to find the volume of air we need to compress to fill a reservoir of
1"^3 with 1000psi of air = 1000/14.4
=69.44444444444
So, we need to compress 69"^3 (to 2sf) of air. We could either have a small diameter pump-cylinder thingy combined with a long stroke length, or a large pump-cylinder
combined with a short stroke.
However, this 69"^3 can be done in many short strokes, or a few very heavy strokes. So basically just mess around with the amount of strokes you'd like, pump-cylinder
diameter, and stroke length till you get the ratio you want. Bear in mind it'd be better to start off at a small pressure like 500psi, although that'd only give around 16ftlb in .22
cal with a 21gr pellet in a 20" barrel.
Its late, this is probably full of mistakes, anyone feel free to correct me, I need sleep.
------------------
Sako September 21st, 2001, 08:36 PM

Thank you for the information
BoB- September 22nd, 2001, 04:51 AM

I had this weird dream,
in it, I got lethal (a very large rabbit) results using a .22 barell, using only 70psi. The difference was my chamber volume, I used a 12" long 3/4" diameter galvanized steel
chamber, using a small handpump bought at walmart, I could get 80psi in 20 pumps.
------------------
BoB- September 22nd, 2001, 10:07 AM

You mentioned spring pistons, can anyone tell me how they work? I would be very grateful.
------------------

BoB- you will know what a spring piston airgun is, although the name might not ring a bell. Spring piston airguns usually have three methods for cocking (break-barrel,
underleaver and sideleaver) and they compress a spring.
The piston is in front of the spring, and when the spring is compressed, it is held back by the trigger mech. When the trigger is pulled, the piston is released, letting the
compressed spring force the piston forwards, compressing the air and pushing it through the air port. Also, there is a process called dieseling going on, this goes on in most
airguns, and is not really a negative thing, but over dieseling is. Basically the lubricants ignite due to the high pressures and temperatures, and this gives the gun more power.
They're pretty simple guns to keep working, less fiddly than a PCP or Pump-Up pneumatic, and are cheaper to buy (usually).
------------------

The peak chamber pressure produced by a spring/piston gun with 12ft/lb muzzle energy is about 1000psi.
It's funny you say that BoB-, I had pretty bad results using a 36" barrel, 36" 3/4 air chamber and .22 pellet at 100psi. Power was considerably less than 12ft/lb air rifle. But
with a 0.50" barrel and 350gr slug it'd do about 90ft/lb
------------------
Scientist September 5th, 2004, 11:52 AM

You've forgotten whats the easiest (imo) type of airgun to make - the pump-up pneumatic. I'd post more on this, but don't have the time at the moment, I'll post more later if
you want.
Please post it. Thanks.
MMIV September 5th, 2004, 09:19 PM

there are good looking air gun designs in the makeshift arsenal (aussie owned!!) one air gun has a air camber behind the barrel which is charged with a bike pump and a air
tap valve is used to discharge the round. the other design was that a aerosol can was attached to rear to discharge to projectile but i was thinking of replacing with co2 canister
used to pump bike tires.
what are your comments about this idea, anyone??
A2675770 September 20th, 2004, 03:35 PM

From my own exprience, I took a 1976 crackbarrel 1 hand pellet gun and turned it into a high pressurized dart gun.
The similarities (from a basic semi-auto paintball gun, Where I got the idea) after removing the spring, is pure insanity. I simply bored out the barrel to fit the proper darts (not
exactly sure of the total diamiter off the top of my head)
Drilled and tapped the back of the barrel 3/4, and socketed in the tank attachment.
With a nice 20oz tank, it had surprising acuracy, up to 150-200 yards,
Only problem was the single load darts, I wish I could have thought of a way to custom some kind of rigged up clip :\ .
-A26
Macgyver October 2nd, 2004, 01:08 AM

Wouldn't this be something more fun to build?
http://www.burntlatke.com/bb.html
A BB machinegun..... At least some pieces of the design found on that link can be used, but I'd prefer to use a portable pressurized gas container rather than having a hose
connected to an air compressor.
Perhaps a paintball CO2 tank or something similar?
xperk October 2nd, 2004, 01:13 PM

Sako,
I would certainly go for a pcp design as this would give you max power in a controllable envelope.
Spring powered airguns are hard to control once they get beyond a certain power limit while pcp's are surrealistically sweet.
People go bear hunting with pcp's.
.50 can be done with a pcp.
For inspiration take a look at:

http://www.barnespneumatic.com/
Most pcp shooters invest in a divers tank to fill their guns - refill of the tank is relatively cheap.
FragmentedSanity October 15th, 2004, 12:17 PM

Im quite intersted in pump up penumatic air guns. Ive long believed them to be entierly underated. The ability to charge the air chamber any where - without bulky equipment
- as many time as you want has some definite advantages. Sure the time between shots is much longer, but that just teachs you to shoot straight the first time!
Id be intereted in any info or pics anyone has. There is a simple pistol version in the PMJB Vol 3 - page 52. Ive wanted to make something along those lines for a while now.
Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed.
Spoz October 16th, 2004, 09:49 AM

In regards to how you are to get a pressure of 500psi, I suggest CO2. Carbon dioxide is cheap and readily available in canisters for paintball or even soda stream chargers. at
25C it will have a pressure of around 830psi from memory, and will go up to 1000psi or so on a hot day. This would kick ass in a small caliber rifle, I designed a .177 caliber
rifle that would be semi automatic and should be reliable, I just do not have a lathe to make the parts :(
If you want to stick with low pressure simply increase the barrel diameter, it means less force per square inch is needed but you need a higher volume to compensate, hence
making them larger. I have a cannon that achieves 100m/s at 80psi, the barrel size is 1". Its quite bulky, but will shoot a 700 gram steel slug through several inches of
hardwood, with a recoil to match a .30-06 at higher pressures. Great for backyard fun.
xperk October 17th, 2004, 04:05 PM

FragmentedSanity,
Some url's you may find interesting:
Commercially available model:

http://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/otr9mm.html
History of pneumatic guns:

http://air.guns.20megsfree.com/
(note the black powder conversion in the vintage section)
FragmentedSanity October 19th, 2004, 03:22 PM

Thtas the kind of thing im talking about... and if I could buy one I would. but im reduced to trying to make do with what I can make. but one would think that if they could be
made in the 1600s we should be able to do it know without too much hassle...
quoted from sites linked above.
There was even a Elite Unit in a Austraian Army that carried .36 cal. and .51 cal. Air Rifles that shot up to 20 rounds with one charge, at speeds up to 1,000 fps .... A Austrian
Miltary Air Rifle designed by Grandoni in 1779 shot 20 rounds of .51 cal. bullets at speeds as high as 1,000 fps on one charge.
thats fairly impressive.
Me _ I just want something simple - I dont care if I have to charge it every shot - just a nice powerful big bore air rifle., and a pistol for plinking.
thanks for the links anyway.
Third_Rail November 6th, 2004, 03:20 PM

I've been using a CO2 setup, myself.
Using dead-soft .36 caliber lead roundball, I get 600-700 fps. I'm pretty happy with it, overall, but the trigger mechanism has to be improved. Currently I'm just using a
modified trigger out of a Crosman pellet rifle, which I'm not happy with.
Does anyone know a better trigger mechanism, or plans for one? I've been having fun with a machining course, and I'd love to make a new trigger mechanism, but I have no
plans.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > PYRO500's new "toys"
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PYRO500 May 23rd, 2002, 11:35 PM

I have been collecting simple street weapons used around here (most of the people that call themselves part of a gang here
can't afford guns! or find someone that can afford one to steal from!!) in the pictures you can see a chrome knuckle duster, a
96 link bicycle chain with a keyring on the end, a #40 36 link sprocket drive chain, and a two piece throwing knife set. of these
things I got the drive chain (my favorate) for $5.00 (bought it from someone at school beacuse I didn't want to buy 20 feet
minimum) it is 277G for just 36 links and is very heavy and would pretty much crack bone on impact with a skull. The bicycle
chain in comparison is 96 links and weighs only 300G for it's length, you can use the keyring on the end and make a hand
loopand the chain is too small for someone to try to yank it from your hands and needs to be doubled up to be a good blunt
impact weapon but it is very compact. The knuckle duster is 4.5 Oz witch is about half of their brass counterpart, I found I
don't really need extra weight and it actually can hemper a good well aimed strong punch and won't stain your hands like
brass, I believe this is a steel piece coated with chrome. the two piece throwing knife set is in a little leather pouch and they
are pretty well balanced. I got these for $5.00 from someone who couldn't figure out how to throw them, I have gotten really
good with them close range. as a matter of fact I got everything here except the bike chain from people at school. here are
the pictures of them and my case I keep them in.
<a href="http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/dsc_001.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.boomspeed.com/kg4boj/dsc_001.jpg</

a>
a>
a>

Nice...I like the bike chain Idea...But just wondering how often do you use these "weapons" on people -- and who...??? Hey
I'm also from FL...
[ May 23, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: randomquestion ]
Madog555 May 23rd, 2002, 11:49 PM

i have a 1-2foot length of heavy chain and a nice hardwood billy club thats all dented up. i inherited them from my great
uncle. the club looks like it got quite a bit of use
TariqMujahid May 24th, 2002, 12:04 AM

I bought a machette from K-Mart for $8. I think it's 16" long blade, but I don't remember or feel like looking at it right now. It
came with a green sheath that can be hooked to a belt. Of course, they sold it to me with the blade duller than a butter-
knife's, so I had to sharpen it a bit. Now that it's sharpen, it makes quite a nice weapon. I keep it under my bed, just in case.
They also sell nice Hatchets at K-Mart. Steel Blade, and quite sharp! These are $12. I don't know which would be more fun to
use, a machette or a hatchet.
Mick May 24th, 2002, 12:22 AM

i would love a set of knuckle dusters...but unfortunatly they a remarkably had to get in australia
bicycle chain is for pussies, get some motorbike chain, or bobcat chain.(either that or just go buy some normal 20mm chain.)
SATANIC May 24th, 2002, 02:25 AM

In aus, you basically have to make your own. I know people who made their own knuckle dusters in metal work, from thick
aluminium plate. quite light, and with tapered edges above the knuckles.
Apparently, knuckle dusters are illegal here in aus, so watch out....
There has been a discussion about the usefullness of throwing knives, but they're fun to play with anyway :)
The bike chain could be kept under the guise of a key chain, so you could completely deny it as a weapon when pulled up by
cops. (as seems to happen to all kids these days) carrying a knuckle duster or throwing knives is going to get you in deeper
shit than they're worth.
maybe it's different where you live, but a simple folding knife is enough for me. I have a large cold steel voyager, with the
tanto blade. sweet!

If you want a good weapon for self defence but is worried about being caught with it take a strong, lightweight umbrella with a
sharp point and a narrow profile. If you're a reasonably good fencer, no hand to hand weapon will beat fencing weapons. Of
course, really close quarters are unsuitable for improvised rapiers, but nevertheless...
Microtek May 24th, 2002, 01:58 PM

Why is hand-to-hand combat a problem? It's certainly not as lethal as shoot-outs, and not as random. I'm not quoting
starwars here; you can train in armed or unarmed fighting to become good at defending yourself to the point that even three
or four opponents are manageable but in a shoot-out, luck is the main factor.
A-BOMB May 24th, 2002, 02:06 PM
Spyder Co civilain is the way to go or a nice looking killing glove.
PYRO500 May 24th, 2002, 04:24 PM

I'd get a pair of loaded gloves but here in florida there's no excuse to wear them and they aren't easy to slip on and off in
your pocket. I personally prefer teh larger #40 chain to any of the others, it is heavy, a good flail like weapon, strong enough
to take anything I can put at it and is compactables, the knuckle dusters look very suspicious but I can call the big chaina key
chain (a very long one) beacuse it has a triangular metal piece one end for attaching stuff. this is the biggest chain that I
think would be fast enough to be defensive and offensive against a fast target and powerful enough to crack a skull/knock out
teeth/break an eye socket (a nasty wound that leaves a person's eye hanging out) I am thionking about cutting the bike
chain as it is a bit too long, but I still think it's too light to do anything except hurt like hell. the little belt pouch on the
throwing knives is convienient, although I'd only use it as an intimidation weapon beacuse it's so small, like I throw one at a
wall and stick it into a bulliten board, then pull the other one out and say, I can do that again, then be prepaired to grab a
heavyer weapon although at clost range (6-12 feet) I can throw this thing so it flips broad side through the air I can repedidly
stick it through drywall. I think that a person's abdomen would be no challenge. but with the small blade i'd have to be
prepared to follow up with an elbow to the face or something.
EP May 24th, 2002, 07:09 PM

TariqMujahid - I also have a machete next to my bed! Seemed like a good place to put it.
Where I live and go to school there is no point in carrying any kind of weapon, so I don't have to worry about it. :)
edit: I don't think it would be too difficult to make "knuckle dusters" from wood either, and if you were feeling evil, drill holes
and stick nails in them so it has spikes. That would make it a bit difficult to conceal however...
[ May 24, 2002, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: EP ]
Spudgunner May 26th, 2002, 01:13 PM

Has anybody thought about using the chain off of a chainsaw instead of bike chain? I know it wouldn't have the brute force of
a drive chain off of a motorcycle or anything, but it would hurt as much as a bike chain, and it would (probably) shred skin
because of the projections that are on it. I don't think it weighs that much though, so it may not be that great of a substitute,
but I think an experiment with under-ripe watermelons would be in order. Now, if only it would stop raining long enough to
plant a garden, I would be able to try that method later this summer. Just a suggestion.
Spud

I remember a story my friend told me about some kid who got caught with a knuckle duster,they kicked up a huge fuss and I
*think he got charged in the end,stupid really. :rolleyes:
I know if I was about to get rolled I wouldnt think twice about using it,and then if things turned out my way id steal there
wallet,you might as well take the opportunity when its there.
Ive made a knuckle duster before and carried it around with me,Ive even taken it to school and almost got caught with it. :o
(I had not intent on using it,just to show me mates) Ive got to get around to making another. :)
I like the idea about the motobike chain.Ive gone and got myself a length already,its soaking now in some kero to dissolve
all of the grease.Ill add 2 keyrings either end and then use to to make sure noone steals my wallet. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D
Next to my bed ive got a large Mag-lite (takes 6 D batterys) and a smallish type steel pipe.Its about 40cm long and 20mm in
diameter with the thinkness of the walls being 3-4mm.This thing hurts like anything,I was swinging it around one day and on
my downswing (coming from over my shoulder) the pipe kept going and I accidently hit myself in the kneecap. :o I fell to the
ground instantly in agony. :( I say that the % power I hit myself with would of been about 5-10% of my maxium swinging
power if that makes sense.
nbk2000 May 27th, 2002, 09:13 AM

Get ten, 1 yard lengths of razor tape or barbed wire. Tie one end together into a bundle with wire, then wrap well with duct tape
to form a handle.
Voila! A flail that'll rip flesh off bone with one swipe. Perhaps you could conceal it inside a cardboard tube disguised as a
package or such to carry it in public.
For chain, weld short bits of nail cut down (pointy end, 'natch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )and
passed through the sprocket holes for a few inches at the ends. Now it'll pierce the flesh and rip it apart when yanked out.
BoB- May 28th, 2002, 04:32 AM

I've always been partial to the boxcutter myself, they cost about a dollar a peice, there blade extends in less than a second,
and they are (duh) razor sharp. A carotid/jugular attack would be extremly effective with one of these weapons, and even a
blinded-by-adrenaline swipe would cause extreme pain and blood loss.
green beret May 30th, 2002, 02:11 AM

I like all these ideas, I will get myself a length of chain soon, I would also like to get some knuckle dusters, Demolition do
you have a bought pair or are they home made?
Spudgunner May 30th, 2002, 02:11 AM

NBK, I was up at our farm the past few days and got a hold of our barbed wire. Now, I didn't actually try MAKING the flail, but I
did test the wire, and it was VERY stiff. I do not know if they make different thicknesses of the wire, but ours was VERY stiff
and wasn't really flexible, so I don't know how good of an actual flail it would make, though it would still hurt like ****. It
might even hurt more if it wasn't very flexible, but it would take some work to make it work. Because the stuff is spooled up,
when you take it off the stuff is all curled, and it takes some work to get it straight. So, this flail idea of yours would be
painful, but you couldn't really hide it. The stiffness of the wire would prevent you from just rolling it up like a whip or
something. I've never encountered razor tape, so I have no idea if that would work, but the barbed wire won't (at least, the
stuff we have).
As for original ideas for weapons, I seem to be screwed lately. I used to be able to come up with pretty good stuff, but lately I
cannot think of anything really. But, I will be sure to post it if I do.
Spud

green beret - I made my own from about 1/4 Inch steel.It wasnt the best design but its still good. :)
For my next one instead of having individual holes for each finger it will be just a long hole and made from about 1/2 inch
steel.
Zach May 31st, 2002, 12:27 AM

back when i had access to the FTP, i downloaded that knife making pdf.
the guy who authored that drilled holes along the outside shape of his knifeblade so he could just saw between the holes. that
makes cutting a hole out of steel or whatever very much easier. when i made my knuckle dusters, i used a bigger drill bit (
bigger than the hacksaw blade ) in one spot and used a smaller drillbit on the rest of the profile. filing all that steel is a bitch
though...
PYRO500 May 31st, 2002, 02:08 AM

I would recomend that when you make your knuckle dusters that you do make it so that all the fingers are seprate, there is
varing designs in knuckle dusters but the ones that hurt the other person the most and you the least are the ones that don't
spread your fingers much, also if you make a pair be aware that your palm is going to take the impact more than your fingers
meaning that if you do not invent some new way of bracing your homemade dusters you will end up having a hard time
getting it to line up with your palm and wrist and since you are gripping this thing you could end up fucking up a finger or two,
I tried to explain that the best I can but in case i'm not clear let me explain a little more. First example, a pair of storebought
knuckle dusters, they have holes you put your fingers through them and when you clench your fist your fingers end up like
your holding something in your hand, your fingers cannot travel any furter back beacuse the duster is braced against your
palm and lines up perfectly across the tops of the second knuckles every time you make a fist. Now you have a home made
pair. You have one long slot for the finger holes. The duster is cut from a rectaqngular piece of steel and when you slip it on
there is a bit of wiggleing around, the dusters do not line up with your knuckles every time beacuse the individual fingers do
not line up with the holes and the duster ends up above (bad) or below (worse) your second knuckles. Now this may be worst
case scenario but in a hurry you'll be thankful that the holes are there trust me.
Also, do not ever get in the habit of putting them on any other way than just fingers through the holes in the top and making
a fist, any other way will end up hurting your hand/breaking fingers.
nbk2000 May 31st, 2002, 04:40 AM

Get a grinding wheel for your drill and use that instead of a file.
Old barbed wire is better since it's more flexible, plus it's rusty. If you stick a couple of onces of weight on the end of the
strands, it greatly increases the "flail" action. Razor tape can be pretty flexible too in smaller sizes.
A-BOMB May 31st, 2002, 09:11 AM

I'm going to decribe my "killing glove" as I call it because I can't seem to find it for a picture. First I took a semi-fingerless
paintball glove and cut into the leather in the palm and remove the padding and replaced it with a 2mm thick steel plate with
a hole in the center to which I attached the swivel/ball joint from a TV antena. Then I cut the antena tube off a 1" from the
ball joint and epoxied a metal spike into the tube. Now I can swivel the spike and which way strait out the bottom of my fist to
slam it down in a stabbing attack, or strait forward for a punching attack. And then when I don't need the spike I just unscrew
the metal plate in the glove. I'll see if I can make a drawing of it if I cant find it for a picture.
inferno June 1st, 2002, 11:14 AM

Trolley pools make good "gang" style weapons, god knows a lot of kids get whacked up with them in Aus in gang wars. Theyre
made out of aluminium tubing, its lightweight but hard, but the weight/size ratio is EXCELLENT for a weapon, theyre light
enough to handle very easily, yet heavy enough to inflict some major pain in a fight. I got mine from an abandoned trolley,
just cut off the pole from the trolley with a knife, so it has a handle on each end with grip too. I did have one i gave to a friend
with a biog money box on it, weight about 500g (just the money box) and was closer to one end than the other, excellent
solid metal heavy "bommy knocker".
And as for knuckle dusters, lol satanic i thought youd know theyre illegal here! everything is illegal here. Did u know by law
taxis are meant to hold a bail of hay in the boot? Old law from horse and cart days i guess, but the police could still arrest a
taxi driver for it!
A weapon kids make in woodwork (shop for u americans) is just a piece of thick (1 1/2 inch+) dowel, about a foot long with
bent nails bashed in a pretty random order in one end. Knuckledusters would have to be made i think, you wont find them
easily lying around. Knives are the best weapon though. As that GET TOUGH! book in another post says, even an opponent
seeing the flash off a blade of a knife strikes fear into their heart and can make them surrender, and that someone well
educated and trained in the use of a knife is virtually unbeatable if they wield a knife in hand to hand combat.
A good alternative to a knife, which will do the same but inflict even more pain probably, is a nail punch. Theyre very hard, yet
sharp enough to just pierce skin, and will deliver a blow like bringing down the back of a machete on someone hard.
There are better alternatives to use than a machete, theyre a bit too heavy to control quickly, but if you did hit someone itll
really f*** them up bed. But in civilian fights, gang wars and the like, its really more important to disable them with the least
amount of injury or permanent damage, as even in self defence you can get put in jail.
I know a family who had a burglar try to break in through their skylight, he fell in and broke his leg, sued them and won
$40,000 AU. Go figure.
xoo1246 June 2nd, 2002, 01:52 PM

Helvetica"> I know a family who had a burglar try to break in through their skylight, he fell in and broke his leg, sued them
and won $40,000 AU. Go figure. <hr /></blockquote>Urban myth.
Microtek June 2nd, 2002, 02:14 PM

A knife is an excellent weapon if your opponent is unarmed - otherwise it won't do you much good as it has no defensive
capabilities and very little reach. A simple hardwood dowel 25-30 mm in diameter and about 50 cm in length ( or a pair of
these ) are much much better.
Nico June 4th, 2002, 05:49 AM

Just as a counterpoint to the opinion of finger-holes in knuckle dusters, many folks over at BladeForums and KnifeForums
(Snickersee, Don Rearic, Ken Cox, etc.) seem to favor the NON-finger-hole design, FWIW. I guess the important thing is just
to try the darn things on your hand, hit a few walls, and see what works best for you personally.
Here's a few related links ...
The ComTech Stinger: <a href="http://www.jamesakeating.com/catalog1.html" target="_blank">http://

www.jamesakeating.com/catalog1.html</a>
Don Rearic's Commentary: <a href="http://www.drearic.com/brassknuckles.html" target="_blank">http://www.drearic.com/
brassknuckles.html</a> (explore the rest of the site too)
Custom Knuckle Dusters: <a href="http://www.mrknuckles.com/index3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mrknuckles.com/
index3.htm</a>
The Impact Kerambit: <a href="http://www.shomertec.com/item.cfm?variable=108" target="_blank">http://
www.shomertec.com/item.cfm?variable=108</a> (this item has gotten mixed reviews)
The Keepsafe: <a href="http://chasclements.tripod.com/keepsafe.htm" target="_blank">http://chasclements.tripod.com/
keepsafe.htm</a>
Lead-filled gloves: <a href="http://www.omegamanenterprises.com/hatchgloves.htm" target="_blank">http://
www.omegamanenterprises.com/hatchgloves.htm</a>
[ June 04, 2002, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Nico ]

On the subject of concealing bike chain as a keychain, I prefer just to buy some of that really thick keychain and have a bunch
of keys on the end. Totally deniable(cops still rough you up like hell if you carry anything like a weapon even if they have no
proof, I know this from personal experience and I heard some guy was arrested for carrying a sock in his pocket to be used as
a break and enter tool. Don't know if it was true though) and if you have some old padlock keys or whatever, you can sharpen
them and they will inflict extra damage. I carry my chain wherever I go, and have only ever had to use it for intimidation. Most
people just leave you alone if you unclip it from your belt and swing it at them.
A trolley pole is also very useful as a handle for a flail. They can be removed from the trolley just by turning it on it's side and
having one person jump on the main body of the trolley and another pull the pole out. Drill a hole in one end, but a metre or
two of heavy chain and another metre of light chain on the end. You could add a chunky key ring to the end to give it some
extra weight, but I haven't. That can easily break bone once it has some momentum! Just some ideas.
life and death mc June 5th, 2002, 01:22 PM

G'day fellas, just thought i'd throw my two bobs worth in on a simple knuckle duster design.All you need is three pieces of
25x25rhs[square hollow tube] about 12mm wide and a bit of 10mm round bar,lay the 3 bits of rhs so that the one in the
middle sits higher than the other two then lay the round bar along the bottom and weld it together.
mark June 10th, 2002, 05:33 PM

Does anyone know if it is illegal to cary small throwing knives on your person, like in your wallet? Also, is there any good
websight that have throwing tutrials? I just hate the sound of the knifes clatttering to the floor when I throw.

Hey,
IMHO, Fuck the small throwing knives.
They suck some MAJOR cock. Big, weighted ones are pretty cool - but the l'il ones just dont have the heft and are therefore
pretty hard to throw and hit somethin.
A good compromise are those small Carbon Steel "ninja" stars. They are pretty small, and whatever (within reason) way you
throw 'em, they stick in.

I'am pretty sure spytech sell ninja throwing stars, and there based in the Uk.

Has anyone ever been killed by a trowing star or even seriously wounded? I've played around with these things for years and
the only ones that I think would cause any sort of serious damage are the one with three points. Hitting someones head would
be the only option for disabling them if they stood absolutly still, who wouldn't duck if someone threw something at their face?
And if someone hit me in the chest or face with one of those things I probaly wouldn't even bother to remove it before beating
the shit out of the bloody punk.
Sorry to burst your Kung Fu dreams, but throwing stars suck.
xyz June 14th, 2002, 06:21 AM

I think that some throwing stars have holes/indentations/grooves in the side which are deigned to hold a poison of some sort
(if disabling your opponent is your aim then I think you could substitute the poison for a diluted acid or even use a
concentrated one if you can protect the star from being dissolved)
I have a throwing star that I made in Metalwork at school when the teacher wasn't looking :) , it is made from galvanized steel
sheet (about 1mil thick) and is very sharp, it is reasonably accurate if thrown right and will stick about 2-3cm into a tree.
On the topic of knuckledusters, a popular material to make them from here in Australia is those thick (1.5-2cm) plastic
chopping boards that are made from a very strong and solid plastic, they are much easier to make than metal ones and don't
show up on metal detectors.
A friend of mine has been considering an electric knuckleduster with a capacitor charging circuit and capacitor inside a container
worn on the belt or put in the pocket with wires going to discharge terminals on the (plastic) knuckleduster.
inferno June 14th, 2002, 08:37 AM

Xoo - no sh*t. Was my dad's friend. He got them on something to do with the fact that the skylight could have collapsed on
anyone including someone working on the roof or whatever.
And "ninja stars" could do a lot. Simple stars cut out of galvanized metal (as someone said) can stick into things pretty nicely.
Commercial ones are much thicker and denser, and are probably better. But it they can stick 2-3cm in a tree, imagine into a
body. With the spin on them, theyd cut you up pretty nicely.
xoo1246 June 14th, 2002, 02:58 PM

Since we are talking toy's in general, I like to show some caltrops I made recently(showed one in the blu-tack post). They are
easily made from two horse shoe nails and can be manufactured in less than a miniute. No soldering necessary. Probably not
the best for vehicles but good enough for feet/shoes.
I have tried stepping on them and they pierce my shoes without much resitance at all.
Here's two pictures of them:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/caltrop02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/
caltrop02.jpg</a> (closeup)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/caltrop03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/
caltrop03.jpg</a> (those small ones isn't large enough to pierce a shoe, made them only as a test)
If any of this seems confusing, it depends on me having a bad cold in combination with too little sleep.
[ June 14, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
Whitey June 14th, 2002, 06:52 PM

Here's in interesting article (above average) on the type of weapons typically found on the street.
<a href="http://www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/hidden.htm" target="_blank">http://
www.righteouswarriortemple.org/New%20Folder/hidden.htm</a>
knowledgehungry October 8th, 2002, 10:15 PM

On the subject of knuckle dusters, my friend has one which is used as a belt buckle he found it at some punk gear store as a
belt buckle but it works as good as normal ones, it is a great way to excuse yourself having them, he wears it to school and no
one is the wiser. even if it is a regular knuckle duster you can hook it on your belt to at least make it appear to have some
purpose...

Almost all of the ones I've seen have some kind of stud that allows you to stick it onto your belt. The problem is that they
aren't actually belt buckles and if a cop should see you wearing one they'll know exactly what you have.
Voltforce October 23rd, 2002, 04:55 PM

Has anyone heard of a gang that uses crossbows? For such a good weapon, they a remarkably cheap, only $40 for a cheap
one and around $150 if you want a moderately good one. No cleaning or bullets required. Armed with a crossbow, an attacker
with a knife or chain would have little chance against you. If you want to get really cheap, you can make one for under $5 with
popsicle sticks, super glue, elastic wire, and a shishkabob skewer. It would not be lethal, but its very presence might be
enough to persuade an attacker not to come after you if he does not want a skewer stuck in his body.
Charlie Workman October 23rd, 2002, 06:24 PM

My older brother has carried a pair of brass knuckles for years. No one knows he carries them and he is very adept at getting
them out of his pocket and on his hand without notice. One punch, the fight is over, and they are back in his pocket. No
showing off to the guys or bragging how clever he is. As you can guess, he does have a great rep as a one punch fight
stopper.
-------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget
[ October 24, 2002, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Charlie Workman ]
Machiavelli October 23rd, 2002, 07:01 PM

Voltforce, you might want to delete your "idea" of a homemade crossbow, as it's truely the essence of kewlness.
About the gangs, I've never heard of them using crossbows, which seems quite logic to me. Usual gang fights occur in a
distance of less than 10 meters and are often associated with provocations, verbal abuse and such for warm up. A crossbow is
bad for such situations since it's very bulky due to the bow ruling out concealed carry, it's a one shot weapon, takes very long
to reload and sucks at manstopping.
For your chain or knife wielding attacker, if you don't manage a perfect shot in the eye if you're lucky or maybe the right spot
on the neck then you'll probably have about 2 seconds before a very angry armed person is so close to you that you can smell
what he had for lunch and you might be able to guess what he'll have for dinner. You won't like his choice :D
BoB- October 24th, 2002, 04:16 PM

A combination of pipe knifes (sometimes called "blood letters") and ninjastars could prove quite effective, 1/8" blacksteel pipe
nipples could be welded together and then grinded to an extreme agle, then have straightened fish hook barbs soldered to all
the points.
I still love rolls of pennys. "Oh, I forgot to go to the bank today occifer." They add alot of power to your punches, if your
already decently strong you will get a 1-hit knockdown.
Theres no reason why you have to smooth out the hit face of your brassknuckles, infact I'd say that a bunch of square
bleeding dimples in someones face would be quite a detterent to the next guy
Butcher knifes make great weapons too since they're already designed to cut flesh. Just ask Michael Myers.
Darkbloodpriest October 24th, 2002, 07:45 PM

<a href="http://www.awma.com/dsp_LargeImage.cfm?imagename=1556&producttitle=4PointMoonStarBlack"
target="_blank">http://www.awma.com/dsp_LargeImage.cfm?imagename=1556&producttitle=4PointMoonStarBlack</a>
I don't think this would be very hard to make at home if you started with a
perfect square of metal...and I don't think you would need all the pretty crap in the
middle.
As for using crossbows for closerange fighting...it works in concept only.

If you ever tried it...crossbows suck. You only get about a good 20 or so
feet or range. If you manage to consistently hit a target past 20 feet
with a crossbow...you're a bad man.
If you were simply going for the stealth part of it though...
whats so bad about blowguns? Short...silent...deadly(with poison-tipped needle
darts), perfection. Undetectable by metal detector(plastic blowgun...darts are too thin
to be picked up...or you could hide them in a pen)...you can have a fairly accurate
blowgun that is only two feet long...you would go four a three or four footer when
you get experienced at controlling your breathing and when you need to hit something
at a further distance(50 feet is all I've ever gotten).
Speaking of poison...has anyone ever seen blackleaf 40?
It was probably banned a while ago though...
McGuyver October 27th, 2002, 03:51 PM

Yeah, I am also looking for a good poison to put on the tips of my darts. A poison that kills almost instantly but isn't but
some how isn't dangerous unless it gets in your blood. Not sure if that's possible but...
edit- spelling...
[ October 27, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]
SATANIC October 27th, 2002, 08:19 PM

I like that nija star / shruiken / whatever darkblood priest, I know it has been discussed, and they are supposedly fairly
useless as far as serious weapons go....
With that particular one, you wouldn't have to hope one of the corners / spikes hit first, as the entire edge is sharpened to a
blade. That way even if just the edge slipd by them, they are going to get cut, and if it's sharpened well, then that could be a
fairly deep cut too.
It'd be worth testing anyway.
Darkbloodpriest November 6th, 2002, 02:11 PM

I do not consider something like this a "serious" weapon, especially compared to some
of the other things one could make with some metal working toools, but with a little
concentrated nicotine sulfate...> :) (Which I have yet to find ANYWHERE btw)
Although I do not know if such a small amount would do anything...
I have been looking thru some of the pmjb's and I really like prussic acid...I
just wonder if it leaves a residue? (On the weapon of choice I mean)
If you could get a poison to gel or somehow stick to the metal...you would be in
business. Steel doesn't absorb as well as aluminum...atleast oxidation wise, so I
assume it wouldn't bond as easily to a poison. See where I'm going here?
I wonder if garlic "juice" poison tipped bullets are simply a urban myth....hmm...
I think you've been talking to Madwolf too much... "Poison" garlic anything ideas are not welcome here!
Sounds like a good project to me...I'll post results when I find something that
works.
[ November 06, 2002, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
Machiavelli November 6th, 2002, 06:45 PM

Considering the fact that prussic acid is a gas at slightly elevated room temperature it probably won't leave any residues. It
also won't stay on your weapon, read a bit more. Especially try some of our past threads as poisons for darts/arrows/weapons
have been discusse ad nauseum. If you want your poison to adhere to a weapons surface you could mix it with a highly
viscous oil.
The garlic idea however is crap, the only useful "evil" application of garlic was demonstrated using an ex-member called
madwolf who just couldn't stop spouting nonsense about poisonous garlic bullets and him being chechenyan war vet and some
other fake bs. We stuffed his ass full of nitrated garlic cloves and set fire to it. He went off like a rocket and wasn't seen
again. Problem solved :D
[ November 06, 2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]

And I lit the fuse. :p
WHOoooooossssh..........BOOM... :)
SATANIC November 6th, 2002, 11:50 PM

Yeah, all throwing knives / stars are not serious weapons at all.
When I get around to testing, I'm also going to try serrations in the flat of the blade. They would look like the serrations you
find on many knives these days, but hopefully not just shred rather than cut, but act as a blood groove.
As we all know, when the wound is opened, it closes pretty quickly, unless the skin can't meet back up. Hence: serrations. the
blood groove idea is also part of it, because I would be hoping for the tool to stick in the victim. If it doesn't, it's still cut them
up pretty bad with the serations.
Also, I've just bought some real throwing knives (small set of three) that do quite nicely. between a metre - metre and a half,
they stick blade in, not a problem. Outside that range, I can't get a straight throw. Practice makes perfect, and I love mucking
around with them, (have a dart board) so it's only a matter of time before I get it right.
Harry November 7th, 2002, 12:47 PM

Hey MacGuyver, it's called snake venom. Cobra, krait, coral, several marine serpents. Assuming no cuts or sores in GI tract,
you could dring the venom. Rub it on your skin, whatever. But if it gets direct acces to your blood, if you're not in an ER
already, just hope your will is up-to-date.
Synthetic heroin (China White) is pretty nasty stuff--a dose the size of a few sugar grains is lethal. Hard to "safely" cut that
stuff. I'd say its best use was to accelerate mortality. Avoid skin contact.
But in my sleep-deprived fantasies, I use metallic sodium projectiles for a nice penetration. (Don't ask about manufacture,
anything's theoretically possible at 4AM with a 20 hour workday behind you.)
Harry

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > Do anyone have plans for high powered
rocketry?
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View Full Version : Do anyone have plans for high powered rocketry?
anarkisten_83 S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 05:11 AM

I was looking for plans for highpowered rockets...I was just wondering if I can load a big am ount explosives in it, and how big
thrust they have, and if U can aim it, and their range...?
------------------
Anarkisten_8 3
SawedOff8gaugeman S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 12:52 PM

W hat a (k3\/\/L haX0r!!)...!!
Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 03:01 PM

OMG, this gu y is unbelievable.
BFL section!
PYRO500 S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 04:19 PM

I leave the b oard for 10 m in. and look what happens
------------------
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro20 0 0 u s / ]
kingspaz S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2001, 06:07 PM

ahahahahahhahahahahaha
wow you m ust be real clever. i wish i'd thought of a high powered rocket full of explosive. for fucks sake....first learn som ething
a b o u t t h e b a sics or rocketry like why they m ove. aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!! you m a k e m e physically sick!! you m ust work out som e
answers for yourself....whats the use?....dam kweeewwewls never pay any attention anyways.....i have to agree with BFL!!!
SofaKing S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2001, 07:03 AM

There's another thread about rockets use it
------------------
W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
PYRO500 S e p t e m b e r 2 5th, 2001, 06:15 PM

I thought I closed this thread.
------------------
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro20 0 0 u s / ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > explosive dogpile
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S. Toppholzer May 24th, 2002, 02:59 PM

sounds kewlish lol.
Anyways, I was working on different thermite formulae lately and then I thought of flashbangs - which brought me to the idea of combining thermite and flashbang -like, say,
a thermite bomb that blows molten slags all around. So I did some kind of preliminary testing, made a couple of thermite pellets and the "dogpile" which is better described in
the file exploding dogpile.pdf you can find in the upload section on the forum ftp.
I didn't pack all the stuff together in a tube since I first wanted to see wether it would work anyways - and if it worked what the possible result could be. I was amazed by the
ferocity and the loudness of the bang the detonating HMTD made.
A device with such a "dogpile" embedded within and lit on both ends with maybe a sparkler or a chemical initiator should work pretty nice.
I'd think of lighting such a thermite filled tube on both ends since I'd like being sure the "dogpile" is surrounded on both sides with burning thermite. If lit on one end only, at
least a part of the thermite would be wasted because the "dogpile" would destroy the whole device before the thermite reaction at the bottom would be finished.
On the other hand, the thermite dust spread by the detonation might as well have a FAE effect. What do you think?
xoo1246 May 24th, 2002, 03:28 PM

I was thinking of something like this:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing.jpg</a>
The "fast ignition charge" could be some BP with aluminum. The HTMD in plastic casing.
I don't belive in the FAE effect, more incendinary.
When I started with LE, I sometimes made mixtures of KNO3/S/Fe2O3/Al, there were no molten slag but the mixture was pretty hot buring and powerfull. I can't remember the
ratios I used.
I remember one cracker containing 10 grams of the above composition in a plastic pipe I once tried. I was only a few meters from it when it was set off(behind a stone with no
hearing protection), I couldn't hear anything for a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
CyclonitePyro May 24th, 2002, 03:30 PM

Does the HMTD have enough time to make the thermite react? The aluminum and iron oxide dispersed in a cloud wouldn't be intimate enough to burn, at least I don't think so.
Keep on playing though, sounds fun.

Cyclo - I don't know if the iron oxide would influence the Al when dispersed together with it in a cloud. If anything would happen (i.e. detonation of said cloud) the Al surely
would take the oxygen needed from the air. And besides of that I thought "wtf, Al dust should detonate anyways". Sunno if I'm right but I believe the sparks provided by
burning thermite should more than suffice.
I guess you got one thing wrong: the thermite doesn't react because of the HMTD detonation but the HMTD detonates becasue of rapid overheating from burning thermite :p
yep xoo - this drawig looks almost the thing I have in mind. Just think of the HMTD in the middle of the charge and make it a "fast ignition charge" on both ends. But I guess
that's too complicated in real life.
xoo1246 May 24th, 2002, 03:50 PM

Hmm, if you are talking about my picture. I don't quite understand you, but I think you mean the HTMD should detonate first?
My intention was to ignite the ignition powder from the top... Hmm let me draw something. :p
Here it is: <a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing2.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing2.jpg</a>
Edit: Al 30um/air(21% oxygen) could be detonated in the right proportions. But Thermite is very hard to ignite. Sometimes I have had unburnt thermite when I have put
thermite on the ground, when some thermite doesn't have physical contact with the rest. But my thermite is often quite crude.

Well, xoo - I thought of lighting both ends of the charge simultaneously (sp?) so that both sides would burn toward the core where the HMTD charge is nested. On detonation it
would then trow burning slag or embers or what have you all around - with the difference that if done this way the slag surely would be a tad hotter. But I actually don't think
that such a model would be feasible anyways - too complicated. I guess you construction is pretty straight forward and more practical.
The thermite I am using is an extremely fine powder - like face powder. The iron oxide is made by (dang how's that anode/cathode stuff called now? Shame on me :mad: )
and thus of the real fine variety. The Al powder is bought and floats on air. once up in the air it's bound to stay there for at least half an hour. I always wonder how come it
isn't pyrophoric. Amazing stuff and great to work with.
zaibatsu May 24th, 2002, 04:06 PM

How about having a thick card tube, possibly 30mm in diameter, block one end, insert a CO2 powerlet, insert either coarse BP or KClO3/Sugar or Thermite and light. However,
you could of course use a metal pipe, plastic might burn through though.

CO2 powerlet? Filled with CO2 or HMTD?
OK guys - this brings up the ultimate question behind the dogpile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
If I'd like to fast and completely destroy, say a small trailer with an easy made, cheap but reliable device - what would be a good soultion?
I'd like keeping it as simple as possible and not making any secondary HE for this. It should leave crime scene detectives no traces or those that are left could lead anywhere
(for example matter nneded to make thermite are so commonplace it cannot be traced)...
oh, naturally I would never ever REALLY intend any such thing it naturally is only pure theoretical :rolleyes:

Filled with CO2
xoo1246 May 24th, 2002, 04:53 PM

Hmm, if your little device wouldn't go off, the crime scene investigators are left with lots of usefull information.(especially if you don't use a "clean room") If it goes off the still
have some information. One would have to keep it simple to avoid an extensive investigation. Make it look like a random act of mayhem/huliganism. Molotov coctails could be
used.
Or attack the vehicle when it has little fuel in it and drop some hypoclorite in the tank, in some container that will be dissolved by the gasoline. Preferably floating on the fuel. I
don't know if it would work, but I could work. I bet the fuel concentration is too large in such an area(tank).
Hope we are talking theories here, right?
Not you burning up a couple of people by misstake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
aside from shrapnel effects - how strong would be the net effect compared to a small HMTD charge? What would make your design better, what would be its weakness? Sorry
for these questions - never thought of somethink like that.

right xoo - I'd never burn theoretical people - only theoretical empty little trailers. I think a combination of explosion and burning should be (theoretically) ideal.
EP May 24th, 2002, 07:17 PM

It seems to me that a molotov cocktail fits best for "easily made, cheap and reliable". If you wanted to get a little fancier, the fuel could be in something like a 1gal jug
dispersed and ignited by an LE charge with some pyrotechnic stars to ensure ignition of the fuel.
xoo1246 May 25th, 2002, 04:59 AM

He seems to like thermite, some thermite in a plastic pipe in the container would work too, the fuel container would pop/explode open with fuel spraying all over.
PYRO500 May 25th, 2002, 12:19 PM

What about a thermite fountain? well, more like a cannon that will fire liquid thermite in a specific direction,I am thinking of a thermite with a bit of magnesium powder in it,
your thermite would be vairly easy to ignite, this would be in a metal pipe capped at one end, the open end would have a length of fast burning fuse or pyro composition that
needs no air in a tube coming to making a cone shape at the top to ensure the entire air exposed face burns and the thing burns back to a small HE+primary charge witch
ejects the burning slag into the air causing the liquid metal (may cool in air not sure) to jet out in a shower of slag being perfect for pre placement in a place such as a crowded
building.

yup. sounds good pyro. I shortly thought of making a combined thermite/HE/FAE by means of a fast burning thermite-like core with not-too hot thermate which detonates a
charge of HMTD which in turn atomizes gasoline in which the thermite charge would be embedded - I guess this would be pretty difficult to accomplish for I think the gasoline
would be gone due to the heat before the HE charge would get the chanche producing a FAE like weapon.
Maybe I should go back to the drawing board and study a couple of patents...
xoo1246 May 25th, 2002, 03:20 PM

I don't think shooting hot iron slag at people sounds good.
What I can tell you is that I once did a test with a KNO3/Al/S/Fe2O3 device in a bottle with ethanole. A fast rising cloud of hot alchol vapors were created after the explosion as
far as I can tell. I have also tried "pure" thermite(in weak container)and ethanol in a small plastic continer.
The contaier was ruptured and a small fireball was formed. The surounding were set on fire by the remaining fuel.
Edit: By the way, using HE in a cannon would split it in a million pieces, second the thermite would burn and stick to the wallsof your pipe were the slag would cool very fast.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't think shooting hot iron
slag at people sounds good. <hr /></blockquote>especially if the shit happens to blow up while you're around :D
The fast rising ethanol cloud you're mentioning: did it detonate?
xoo1246 May 26th, 2002, 05:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />did it detonate?<hr /
></blockquote>How could it?, there was nothing there to detonate it and it was probaly not detonationable(only ignitable).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > New Rules, New Sections. Listen UP!
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megalomania S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2001, 11:11 PM

T h e r u l e s h a v e c h a n g e d . D o n t w o r r y , t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n a d d e d to, jus t clarified and c o m bined into a big r u l e s a n d F A Q
p a g e . T h e F A Q h a s b e e n e x p a n d e d . I h o p e e v e r y t h i n g w e n t s m oothly, there might be a few bad links here and there yet. I
advise everyone to read the rules and the FAQ, and of course fo llow them. If you have any questions about my rules or the
FAQ, please post in the new Forum Matters section (I will make a thread). I am particularly interested abou t a n y s u g g e s t i o n s
on adding more things to the FAQ .
About the ne w sections: The opinions section is no more, but it will be brought ba ck on a new overflow site along with severa l
NEW s e c t i o n s (that we don t h a v e t h e s p a c e f or here). I t m a y a l s o b e l a r g e l y u n m o d e r a t e d a n d a v a i l a b l e t o non- m e m b e r s ( I
have not decided yet). The new Forum Matters section is for any issue pertaining to what goes on here (bugs, policies, etc.).
For a com ple te description of what these sections do allow, click the link where descriptions norm ally go. I have m a d e a
separate document to expand and clarify what is allowed in each section. I only have these two done so far.
Again, com m ents can go in the Forum Matters section, which now allows open posts, so any m ember can start their own thread.
------------------
For the m o s t c o m p r e h e n s i v e a n d i n f o r m ative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Frag grenade.
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DBSP May 26th, 2002, 10:12 AM

I got a nice idea today when I saw some large rings(see the foto) my brother had found. They weigh 32g each and meassure 6mm in height, 37mm in with and with an
internal with of 21mm. When I spotted them they where piled up on each other and thats when I got the idea to use them as frag grenades. If you pile up 10 of them you've
got 320g of steel shrapnel and asuming that they get divided into 3 pieces in the explosion you have 30 pieces weighting about 10g each, that would shurely do some damage
against many thinkable targets.
The internal volume is about 19 cc(with 10 rings). If using a good explosive you could get 28g of explosive into the grenade asuming an explosive density of 1,5 g/cc.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/frag_grenade.jpg" target="_blank">-->Frag Grenade<--</a>
What do you think?
TariqMujahid May 26th, 2002, 10:32 AM

Great idea. How much do these rings cost, what are they used for, and where did your brother find them?
The rings piled together, I'm assuming should mimic a pipebomb; in which pressure is built up until the container bursts. In this case, when the container bursts, it spread
fragments of the steel rings. But this might not work, because the bottom and top are open...and explosions take the path of least resistance. Therefore, you'd probably want
to use a high explosive. This would probably be better since it would give the fragments more force behind them.
Pardon my bad terminology, I don't keep up with explosives much =).
Mick May 26th, 2002, 10:54 AM

er..there called washers.
you put them underneath nuts (on a bolt).
pretty common things.

then problem with washers are 99.9% of the time the washer will fly side on creating as much resistance as possible - thus it will lose most of its enrgy before it gets to its
target.
you would do better using small clouts, or chip board screws.
simply put a whole shit load of them in a bag(plenty more then 320g), then put your container of desired explosive in with them and tape the whole lot up.
or if you had the money you could just go buy a box of 3 inch nails(1000 - 2000 nails, whieghs around 20kgs) and put 500g of APAN in the middle.

That would make a rather large grenade Mick. You wouldn't be able to throw it very far. Also, when employed in the manner suggested (using HE filler), the rings would be
more likely to divide into several fragments than to fly in any direction intact. Even if the fragments did lose energy fast that would not be such a bad thing as the danger area
would be more controllable.
xoo1246 May 26th, 2002, 11:22 AM

They would be better for a claymore, but not ideal at all.
I had a dream once, with 200 grams of AN/NM/AL and 63 nails(claymore). I used a sheet as a target, I can't recall it by I think 11 hit from a distance of 10-15 meters. Some
did hit trees, but didn't pentrate very far. They tend to hit from the side(as would the rings), thus giving a larger area of resistance, second, they are light.
Nails could be used agains humans but I would use steel balls if the target were a vehicle.
[ May 26, 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
DBSP May 26th, 2002, 05:21 PM

One thing you could do to improve it would be to weld them together(not completely, just so that they keep together) and seal the ends and then use a saw to make lines
where they will brake when pressure is applied. I'll try one of these in a few days.
Off topic, I've had some real fun today and detonated some larger things. I've got some very nice pics and some audio for you, I'll put it up tomorrow in cap sensitive AN
mixtures, so keep your eyes open guys :p ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Spudgunner May 26th, 2002, 07:56 PM

How far is it you would have to saw through? I remember reading for real frags, the only part that matters as to the lines in the metal is on the inside, the outside is merely so
it doesn't slip. I think trying four cuts (in a + shape) cut with a hacksaw about halfway through the metal would work probably. I still like NBK's post quite a while back
(January 2001) found <a href="http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/jan01/20011009-4-000070.html" target="_blank">here</a> . Unfortunatly, the pics are not there,
and the pics were the best part of it. I remember when I first read it (I can't believe I remember reading a topic a year and a half ago) I was stunned at how simple, yet
effective, of an idea it was. Anyway, take a look at that link, it is a really good idea.
Spud

An excellent case for a frag grenade would be the syphon case one may find underneath a washbasin.
ShotgunsAreFun June 5th, 2002, 09:26 PM

Moron.
[ June 05, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
S. Toppholzer June 6th, 2002, 04:54 PM

fine. :rolleyes:
so now that I know you think I'm a moron would you please kindly also explain why you think so? Please enlighten me with your wisdom.

S. Toppholzer,
he is the moron! his post has been edited my nbk. i suspect with a name like that he probably posted some crap about sparklers in bottles making great frag grenades.
S. Toppholzer June 7th, 2002, 05:01 PM

<dissapointment>oh sh*t. I was hoping to battle this guy.</dissapointment>
<relief>hey, thanks kingspaz!</relief> :D
Oh yay, sparklers in bottles.
I posted some crap about some form of high explosive in a metal pen. Could probaly pass an x-ray test but would have a very small kill radius.
I'll crawl back into my hole now. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please do. NBK
[ June 08, 2002, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

I know the forum isnt Pipe Bombs 'r' Us, but an improvised frag grenade is really just a pipe bomb. A really damn simple way would be to get a pipe (Gee this reminds me of
all the cookbook crap, "Ingredients for bomb: Pipe, end caps, black powder") or actually an aluminium can even? Thin shrapnel, but still very jagged and sharp. Either make a
strong cap and surround it with nails and bolts etc, and the cap (a few grams of AP/hmtd and PETN would be pretty powerful for this?) should blow the nails etc outwards, so
even if the shockwave didnt shatter the can, the nails and bolts etc would. Kewl, but effective im sure.
Or, with the washers you have above, cut lines up and down them pretty far through, and put some HE filler inside them. They will break on the cuts sending kinda tile-shaped
shrapnel out, hopefully on the thin side, so thered be less resistance = more speed and distance. It would also be blunter shrapnel, so would be more like cutting someone with
a blunt knife than with a sharp blade
But really, apart from doing frag grenades near objects to see what damage they do, i dont think anyone here is going to actually use one for practical uses, so detonating HE's
would be just as fun and probably less dangerous
(Imagine 5g of AP going off in your hand, then imagine 5g of ap going off in your hand in a can/pipe surrounded by small metallic objects!)
[ June 14, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]
NoltaiR June 15th, 2002, 01:12 AM

A pipe would fragment into a few lethal peices, but what would make it much more reliable is if you could etch into the pipe with some sort of saw so that there are lines of
metal that are not as thick as the rest of the casing. You would make the case look like a grid fasion with engraved lines going horizontally and vertically every centimeter or
so. This is what it might look like:
<pre>
/===\/======\/======\/======\/===\
|===::======::======::======::===|
|===::======::======::======::===|>>>>>>>>X
|===::======::======::======::===|
\===/\======/\======/\======/\===/
[ June 15, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

Noltair, thats pretty much what i meant. With the rings pictured at the top of this topic, if with a hacksaw you could cut the insides with deep grooves, each ring would shatter
into say 8 pieces of shrapnel, very devastating to a human, though i HOPE noone on this forum would use them for that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /
>
heres what i mean:

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ia/antipokemon/frag.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/ia/antipokemon/frag.jpg</a>
(have to copy and paste)
Note the grooves are on the insides Herr Reichsfhrer. HEIL HITLER *hand salute in the air* hehehe sorry.
I see NBK did work when the forum was down before...he gave himself an avatar! lol
[ June 15, 2002, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]
nbk2000 June 15th, 2002, 07:27 AM

External grooves have no effect on fragmentation. That's why all modern grenades use pre-fragmented bodies of either wire, stamped metal, or shot.
And regular water pipe is about the worst thing you can use for a grenade. It's heavy, clunky, and doesn't break into effective fragments.
Now, if you used a PVC pipe as an explosives casing with a removable sleeve containing steel shot fragments, then you'd have something. <img border="0" title=""

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Aerosol cans
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Spudkilla May 29th, 2002, 12:17 PM

I am sure that these would be a great weapon, or a tool to use. Simply get rid of whatever it was holding, but then you run into problems. How can you get the chemical (or
gas) into the can, and then repressurize it? It seems pretty hard, but I'm sure with a little thinking we could make it work. Or not.

The only way I can think is by somehow tapping a hole in the bottom of an aerosol can and then fitting the type of valve thats in a bicycle.
EDIT- you can get oil sprayers that you can pump-up to build up pressure, maybe if you found a heavy duty version of these?
[ May 29, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]
CyclonitePyro May 29th, 2002, 02:30 PM

Did you search? This was discussed in the "Refillable Flamethrower" topic down near the bottom of the Improvised Weapons page.
The good news for you is that it can be done, and it is pretty easy. But I don't think it could be used as a weapon unless you have problems, that would hurt!
[ May 29, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: CyclonitePyro ]
PYRO500 May 29th, 2002, 02:56 PM

I have tried the refillable flamethrower and air does not work really well to represurize it, mainly beacuse the air does not mix with the propellant and does not spray. I am
currently building a device like this that will have electronic ignition but I have to have a stream insterad of a spray witch is only a few feet anyways. The stream is kind of
weak but with a very volitile fel will be fun.
electric emu June 1st, 2002, 12:32 PM

I saw a refillable aerosol can at harbor freight tools but its in the usa.
Fl4PP4W0k June 2nd, 2002, 01:56 PM

You know those Air Horns? Ive got one for our boat.... anyway, they are an "aerosol" can with a small horn attatchment on the top (if you didnt know this...well).
Commercial disposeable ones use tetrafluoroethane gas methinks. This one i saw a while back didnt... you actually pressurized it yourself :D
It came with a bigger than usual can, and a fancier horn. You dont get anywhere NEAR as many 'hoots' out of the thing (as you can fit LOTTS of TFE in a can, seeing as its
liquified) but it was the same loudness. Included, was a different attatchment for the top. It wasnt a horn, but a doodad that had a long bike style valve on it. (the ones used
on racing bikes). You hooked that upto an air compresser and pumped as much air in the thing as you can.
THis sounds relevant, although they were $$$.

Ill look up the name of it
l8r,
rob

Also, if ya lookin for a "defence" weapon.... Oven Cleaner works like a charm :mad:
Its basically 25% NaOH in a can, pressurized, with foaming agent!!!
Normally it comes out in a mist like burst.... which isnt exactly wot u want. A simple needle fixes that... just enlarge the hole a little until it streams out. This way, it shouldnt
be blown back as much towards you.
THis is effective, but it DOES cause permanent damage. So dont do it on ur buddies, k? :p

Against the odd mugger\burglar\enemy this is effective and vicious. Most likely they wont see again... or atleast very well :D
dont do this ofcourse.... im being hypothetical

but you knew THAT
l8r,
rob

<a href="http://www.taylormadeproducts.com/2002catalog/catalogma.htm" target="_blank">http://www.taylormadeproducts.com/2002catalog/catalogma.htm</a>
there it is
....thats pretty similar to what i saw
J June 2nd, 2002, 04:23 PM

Re-pressurising with air presents another problem: if you get a flashback into the can, you have a fuel/air mixture ready to explode...

I've been thinking a while about aerosol cans, but more in the direction of a non-leathal time bomb. I mean like a mechanical timer fixed to the bottom of the can which
punctures it, would be great as a revenge weapon, specially with expanding building foam. Just imagine one of those left in a car or a room, he he. You would have to cut your
way through it when it hardened. Or something less destructive like novelty fart gas would be great in a mall or other large places.
Probe June 3rd, 2002, 05:25 AM

Hmm, that wouldnt be very hard, but why not just fill a CO2 cartridge with BP and then use a kitchen timer to set off an estes modle rocket ignighter with a nine volt? simple
way:
possitive on the hammer, negitive on the bell. the second it gos off there a small explosion and foam is everywhere. you could tape like, 5 cans around the CO2 cartridge and
have ALOT of fun. :D , another way:
tape a needle to where the 0 number is, and soldor a wire of the nine volt to that, then on the other, have the ignighter on a wire, and another wire leading to the hand itself,
tape a needle to there so it will just go like this:
1) |_
2) |-
3) |/
4) | BOOM
heh, just an idea.
Fl4PP4W0k June 3rd, 2002, 08:16 AM

A while back i had a Pyrodex\BP cratermaker taped to 3 Butane cans in a triangle config.... floated it on a little wooden raft thingy and lit the fuse (long sparkler).
Anyway, it was rather loud :)
Unfortunately, it threw some nasty shrapnel (duh) - so you wouldnt want to do it NEAR someone. Unless you really do dislike them :mad:
A small AP\HMTD cap would do the same, and be more compact.

But for the danger involved, its not a smart thing to do :p The damage wasnt all that impressive either.
l8r,
rob

If you puncture the can in the bottom where it is rather thick the can should not rupture but only release it's contents through the hole.
Anyway I was thinking in the direction of a spring loaded hollow firing pin released by a clockwork mechanism. A detonator would rupture the can and probably ignite the
contents, which wasn't quite my idea.
PYRO500 June 4th, 2002, 03:45 AM

what about using acetone on the valve on the top somehow? you could devise a way to get it to eat through the plastic, also you could get a solvent that could eat through the
can, another choice would to take a can of the stuff (esp expanding foam) and put it in the microwave. That would be good. :)
The only way I see of puncturing one of these cans is with a lot of force behind a small thing like a nail, you could rig up a black powder piston system to shoot a nail into one
of these. A person could take a file and make a very weak spot in the metal carefully and have a capacitor discharge (eg camera flash capacitor charged) arc a hole in it when
they tried to pick the thing up due to gravity or a springiness in the capacitor contacts, just have the open capacitor lead make contact with the weak spot and kapow! you'll
have a small but loud leak but if it was in their face it could cause damage and ignite the contents, I just thought of a new idea, a timer that activates a switch (atached to an
appliance timer) and is plugged into the wall, the timer runs to a heating element witch heats the can until it either explodes or the top melts away.

If puncturing the can and spraying the contents is all thats to be done... Somehow rigging up a glass ampule of really 'mean' acid should do the trick (when it breaks, acid spills
and eventually burns hole in can). Perhaps perchloric or fuming nitric? These cans are steel methinks...
l8r,
rob

i thought most cans where aluminium...
pyro500, putting the can in the microwave would do nothing more than break the microwave. metal (the can) reflects microwaves so the inside would not get grilled. also
depending on what is inside the can it may or may not be affected my microwave radiation.

A can in the microwave would heat up and explode like one on a fire, it would at least blow the door off of the microwave oven :)
Some aerosols nowadays, especially cans of builder's filler/foam materials have a rubber plug in a hole in the base of the can to act as a safety valve if the can is heat. Simply
heating the can should eject the contents through the plug hole, or attack the plug directly with a solvent or a hot implement.
PYRO500 June 4th, 2002, 07:59 PM

It dosen't matter if the microwaves are reflected by the metal, the metal is going to have an electric current inducted in it and then it will heat up, this is what actually happens
to metal things in your microwave. if you put a can in a microwave it will most likely heat up and expolde, I guess the added metal in theresonant cavity would destroy it's
resonance to microwaves of that frequency causing magnetron wear but that would take a while and the can most likely would have exploded.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > High Voltage (link)
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View Full Version : High Voltage (link)
AmonDin October 3rd, 2001, 09:27 PM

<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org">Powerlabs.org</a>: For those intere sted in high voltage weapons, Big capacitors, coil
guns, tesla coils, etc. Go here for som e pretty decent information.
Don't know if I'm being reduntant, but I reccom e n d t h e m anyway.
My small group of friends is currently making a flyback transform e r h o o k e d u p t o a s m all prod. This think can get you 30kv at
1 or 2 m illiamps, whe n finishe d, it will send static sparks up to six inches through the air.
Also on the list is a negative ion vortex gun. Basically it fires a d onut-shaped blast of negatively io nized air at a ran g e o f a b o u t
100 ft. Not capable of doing perm a n e n t d a m a g e (unless you put your he ad right next to it, in which case, kiss your eardrums
goodbye) but when it hits a person or group of people, it gives them a really bad case of static cling! The m ore powerful vortex
generators can knock a 747 out of the sky.
------------------
J October 4th, 2001, 04:20 AM

6 inch sparks from 30kV? Are you sure about the output? A 30kV pulsed output m ay get you around an inch, but no way 6.
The link has been posted before, it's a great site. I wish I could afford that kind of equipment :-(
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://forumarchive.tripod.com )
AmonDin October 4th, 2001, 08:44 AM

30kv is the output of the flyback I've got, hooked up to two or three large capacitors, and the power jumps quite a bit.
------------------
J October 4th, 2001, 09:29 AM

I'm still not convinced that a cap discharge wou ld go 6 inches at 30kV. Are you using a m ultiplier configuration?
------------------
a_bab October 4th, 2001, 04:39 PM

6 inches = cca 15 cm , a n d a s p a r k o f 1 5 c m can be generated in air only by 150 KV*, so 30 kv is pretty insuficient for this
spark (my oppinion).
*Note for keVVLz : 150.000 V
------------------
D a m n, I got a nitro-h e a d a c h e a g a i n . . .
http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a
Anthony October 4th, 2001, 06:34 PM

Actually it's 150 000V or 150,000V
150.000 = 150V http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
------------------
"Shit happen s. Get a fucking helm et"
Mick October 4th, 2001, 10:12 PM

a cap discharge at 30 kv will go further then 6inch - in ideal conditions of course. however 6 inches is quite easily obtained in
normal conditions.
bozza October 4th, 2001, 10:22 PM

I always thought the general rule of thum b was that 10,000volts would arc 1 cm .
30kv would only be 3cm at best .
correct me if im wrong.
a_bab October 5th, 2001, 06:07 PM
Yes Anthony, you are right, but in m y country the 'separator' for numbers (thousands groups) is '.', not the "," .
Is important that you get the idea : one hundred and fifty thousands volts. And I hope that everyone http://
theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b / s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif
I still believe that in dried air, with pulses of 10 ,000 volts (not high frequency as Tesla Coil's discharges) th e spark lenght will
b e n o m ore that 10 m m .
------------------
D a m n, I got a nitro-h e a d a c h e a g a i n . . .
http://m ove.to/pyrom a n i a
Mr Cool October 6th, 2001, 03:11 PM

30kV WILL NO T c a u s e a b r e a k d o w n 6 " l o n g i n a i r a t R T P . C o r o n a d i s c h a r g e = * m a y b e * , f r o m a V E R Y s h a r p point. U n l e s s o f
course you use a U HT trigger of about 150kV, like in a big flashlamp.
AmonDin October 9th, 2001, 11:18 PM

I fired the thing up this weekend. Oh my lord, I got the 6 in spark I wanted (spark gap se t to 6 in.) but I doubt I'd get those
kind of results under anything but lab conditions. Doesn't m atter, it'll be used to power m y 'galactic donut gun' in a few
m onths.
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > My new (mini) air cannon
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Energy84 June 6th, 2002, 07:04 PM

I've been busy in the shop lately, working on my latest creation. My miniature version of Glen Shindel's <a href="http://www.spudzooka.net" target="_blank">Spudzooka</
a>. It's 13.5" long, has a 12.25" barrel bored to .68 (paintball caliber :D ) and has a 13" by 2" chamber.
Sorry about the poor quality pics, but I just couldn't pass up the price on the camera <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/energy84/RearViewOpened.gif" alt="" /> This is the rear of the cannon, opened up so that you can see the diaphragm and the
endcap. Note: If you look very closely, you can see the o-ring in the endcap that seals everything up.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/energy84/InsideCloseUp.gif" alt="" /> This is the inside of the cannon.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/energy84/DiaphramSide.gif" alt="" /> This is the diaphragm, the only moving part. It is made out of aluminum. I originally planned
on putting two o-rings (hence the groves in the side) to seal it and force it to move, but the o-rings proved to be too tight and the cannon would not fire. So instead I put a
short length of small braided rope into the rear groove and now it slides, and seals, perfectly.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/energy84/DiaphramTopCloseUp.gif" alt="" /> Here is the top of the diaphragm. Those two holes are to allow the air to flow by into
the chamber. You can clearly see the imprint left in the gasket from the back of the barrel. The gasket itself is just some hotglue that I slowly melted into the bottom of the
diaphragm.
I'm very happy with the performance that I'm getting. Although I haven't actually measure my distances, with a 3/8"x1"long bolt I'm getting about 200yards@75PSI.
The cannon has been pressure tested and leak tested to 150PSI but I'm confident that it is capable of at least 250PSI. I just haven't been able to find a compressor to match
yet :(
Edit: Changed image server
[ June 10, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]

the pics are dead. be careful with high pressures as you'll have one hell of a pipe bomb on your hands!
edit: pics seem to be working now......maybe my computer was fucking up again :confused:
[ June 07, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Spudkilla June 7th, 2002, 12:48 PM

IN the topic of cannons, has anybody EVER tested to see if piston was better than diaphragm, or the other way around? I've never heard of it, and I don't have the time or
money to do it. By the way, I've got an over-under sprinkler valve cannon, and two "grape-shooter" cannons.
Energy84 June 9th, 2002, 04:32 AM

I have thought about building a cannon using a piston instead of a diaphragm but figured that it'd be more complicated and thus harder to build. I might however try to build
one. I think that it'd be a good project, but I'm not convinced that there would be any big performance gains. The beauty of the system that I'm using is that the air behind the
diaphragm is vented almost instantaneously and once it's gone, the diaphragm moves with around 500lbs of force. Considering that the diaphragm only needs to move about
0.25" to be full open, I think that this is about as fast as you'll ever be able to open a valve. (Do the math if you want, but it's 3:30am and I'm half pissed, so I'm not going to
even bother trying).
Even though in my opinion a diaphragm system probably has better performance, the piston system is most likely more suited to larger cannons (think, pumpkin chukin').
EDIT: Typos
[ June 09, 2002, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]

Well... that gun up there looks to me AWFUL similar to a piston gun :p
I thought - I may be wrong - that a 'diaphragm' gun works on the principle of a sheet of neoprene\rubber being forced against the barrel and bending, allowing air to pressurize
the main chamber.
Your design seems to work by forcing a peice of aluminium, with an inernal seal made from hot-glue, against the barrel as pressure is applied from behind. The air fills the
forward chamber through a couple pin-holes. When you instantly empty the rear chamber, the aluminium peice is slammed backwards with the force of the forward air
pressure multiplied by the area of the 'diaphragm'. Thus the air follows the path of least resistance out of the barrel - propelling the paintball at stupendous speeds towards its
unsuspecting target.
Am I wrong???
If not, you have built a Piston Gun :D
BTW, I have a little 12ga PVC piston cannon, and its pretty goddamn fun.
That gun looks damn nice BTW...

l8r,
rob

I'd personally call Energy84's gun a piston gun too. It looks like there's some nice machine work gone into that, I especially like the breach end barrel support :)
Most of those small car tyre inflators will do 250-300psi, their output is pretty small but it shouldn't matter too much on a gun of this size and they're pretty cheap too.
PYRO500 June 9th, 2002, 04:44 PM

300 psi! I haven't found a portable pump that will go over 200 psi. The pumps at gas stations are usually set to something like 120 psi or lower. I'd reconsider using very high
pressures in a piston gun beacuse when the pison slams into the back of the gun it could cause damage and could slam against the back of the gun and hurt you

Yep, the 250psi ones are more common but I've seen a few brands that do 300psi. They're those units that run of the cigartte lighter in a vehicle.
You could always a damping material or spring behind the piston to absorb some of the recoil shock. But I'd avoid putting your body directly behind the gun anyway (I do this
as a matter of habit with all spudguns).

*chuckles*
Those $US30 Air Compressors you buy for car tyres or whatever, may have a PRESSURE gauge rated to around 200-300 psi... I have one myself.
I tried using it with a medium sized Pneumatic Cannon. It sucked donkey balls. Eventually (about a minute) it got the thing upto 100psi. *sigh*
After that, it would go up like 20psi a minute... while the motor made a sad crunchy dying noise. Fuck that.
I now use a $AU28 (about $15US) track pump, which reaches about 135psi NO PROBLEMS in about 30 seconds... with not too much effort.
(this is a VERY small chamber... :) )
So, If you have chunky ass cannon (3 or 4" chamber) then a compressor would be a good idea... as you wont strain ur precious muscles :p But for a gun of your size, a
somewhat decent track pump makes MUCH more sense.
Ofcourse, having a cheap compresser permanently pressurizing either a compressor tank or old propane can would be pretty useful....
Anthony June 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM

I did warn that the output was rather pitful! For a 3' or 4' chamber several feet long then yeah, it's not practical to get it to 250psi, but for small volume, high pressure guns it
does work. One of mine gets a 3' length of 1.25" chamer to 250psi without too much difficulty.
By track pump do you mean the stirrup types? I've got a cheapish one that goes up to 120psi nice a quickly and is great for the bigger, low pressure (100ish psi) guns.
Fl4PP4W0k June 10th, 2002, 12:04 PM

Stirrup... I think so.
Its a T-Style vertical one, you stand on the base. And pump the handle thingy... its not like a foot pump.
Fuck man, Ive been playing with my just-revived 12ga piston cannon. :D
At 45PSI, it shreds a coke can quite satisfactorily with a handful of screws. I fired it at that pressure, and it went thru a can and blew a ragged hole in the trash receptacle
positioned behind it... then leaving a screw in the skirting board.
I found a box of Water-Color paints at the local learning institution, and the little tubes fir perfectly in my barrel :)
Time to redecorate the forementioned institution...
How cool is the Sig !!
BrAiNFeVeR June 10th, 2002, 01:13 PM

Isn't there something in the rules about sig lenght of max. 3 lines ?
Though it's a very nice one, I must admit ...

Fl4PP4W0k, i like the sig but it MUST be removed as there is a limit to 3 lines for sigs.

I suppose you could call it a piston but I still think that it would be more appropriate to call it a diaphragm. Even though the diaphragm is shaped like a piston. The only reason
I gave it the piston shape, was to prevent it from getting cocked in the barrel.
My understanding of what a piston type cannon looks like is shown in the drawing below.
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/energy84/Pistontypecannon.gif" alt="" />
The piston would slide inside of the rear part of the barrel and would plug all the little holes. To fire, the chamber would be pressurized while the piston is plugging the holes,
then once pressurized, you would simply pull the piston back via the rod that it's attached to.
That's the theory behind it. I've been looking into it more seriously and there would be a bigger potential for leaks, but I think I could pull it off.
I've already thought of a way that I could convert my gun into a piston type, but unfortunately, I won't be able to do it until next fall since I made all this at school.
Gotta love all the free materials and equipment :p
BTW, does anybody know of a better image host?
I also setup a website which is basically just the above post. You can find it <a href="http://www.chr1s.b0x.com/Minicannon/Minicannon.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.
Unfortunately my host for this site doesn't allow outside linking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Devils Knight June 10th, 2002, 08:59 PM

You can use a free host I've seen a few other member's using: <a href="http://www.boomspeed.com" target="_blank">www.boomspeed.com</a> it allow's hotlinking, but
with a small limit of 1mb account's. Oh well, nothing stopping you from making several accounts.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Thats a piston gun !?
lol
Im not even sure what one would call a design such as that... but a piston design it aint. A piston cannon uses a free sliding piston in the rear section of the chamber, which
seals against the barrel when pressure is applied - and slams back when rear chamber is vented to atmosphere.
Sounding familiar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Basically, your gun _is_ a piston style - from what I can see here.
A very NICE one mind you :D
Sorry bout the sig :\

awwwww

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> A piston cannon uses a free
sliding piston in the rear section of the chamber, which seals against the barrel when pressure is applied - and slams back when rear chamber is vented to atmosphere.
<hr /></blockquote>Now go download the plans for the spudzooka 234 at <a href="http://www.spudzooka.net"
target="_blank">Spudzooka.net</a> and tell me how the firing mechanism works. You'll clearly see that you have just described how it works, and that it IS called a
diaphragm.
I know my pic is rough, but the idea is that when the piston is slid back, the air is allowed to rush through the holes into the barrel. I believe that this is the same system used
in those big ass "Pumpkin Chuckers".
and yes, your sig is tooooo long.
I've started work on a portable airtank that is roughly twice the volume of my cannon. It will have a shraeder valve (SP?) to fill it up and a short (3 ft or so) hose to attach to
the cannon. Should be fun!
Edit: Typos

The 234 is indeed what I've come to know as a diaphragm gun. The main difference between piston and diaphragm that I have seen time and time again on various websites,
is that a diaphragm mostly flexes with the changing air pressures and a piston slides back and forth. The 234 has a rigid diaphragm so it's really a bit of both.
aussie_boy August 11th, 2003, 01:14 AM

well i have a good one for ya a six shot cannon try going to www.Techleague.com let me know what ya think
Skean Dhu August 11th, 2003, 05:53 PM

i have a portable aircompressor,it has a 12V I/O port for recharging itself adn things such as cell phones. its rated up to 260 if i recall correctly. but the air flow sucks ass and
take ~2min to get to 100 psi on my 3"X20" chamber. i might build a new airchamber soon , one with a PSI gauge so then i can use CO2 from those portable bke pumps that
run off of 12g. canisters. or if i have the time and motivation i might rig it to use my paintball tanks
Yorki_pyro March 1st, 2004, 12:57 PM

Does anyone know where to find pressure rated PVc pipe in the UK? BnQ dont even have the right parts in standard ratings (not that I'd use them) and the plumbers supplier
doesnt stock them either.
By the way, the cannon I have in mind is a piston exhaust valve cannon, 2 inch barrel, 4 inch chamber, 6 foot long barrel, 4 foot long chamber.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Infrasound (less than 15Hz) Weapon
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Bander October 13th, 2001, 01:07 AM

<h1>Theoretical Design of a ~7 Hz Whistle</h1>
<img src="http://www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/infrasound/whistle1.gif" width="457" height="106">
I have done extensive research into the design of human flesh resonance weapons
and I have come to the conclusion that they are possible. To what extent is
still questionable. There are many amateur (<a href="#1">1</a>) documents that
say a ~150 decibel 7 Hz tone can kill, but I have had a hard time finding the
same data in the few military and professional R&D documents (<a href="#2">2</a>)
that are available to the public. Luckily, most sources seem to agree that a
~7 Hz tone matches the resonance frequency of some human flesh and will cause
nausea. (as long as we're on the subject, 3000hz is the resonance frequency
of the ear canal)
So far I have heard of 3 ways to generate this effect and apply it to a biological.
<ol>
Through the use of a modulated fast firing vortex weapon (<a href="#3">3</a>).
(that's a future post in itself)</li>
By altering a standard whistle to lower it's frequency.</li>
Really fucking large tubes (not sure how this works) ;-)</li>
[/list=a]
Large tubes are out of the question, so that leaves me with 1 and 2. My work
on the modulated vortex weapon should be complete in a few months, but I am
concerned about the feasibility of shooting 7 high energy vortices a second
(possibly a modified 2 cylinder motorcycle engine). Because of this I did a
little research into the physics behind everyday whistles (<a href="#4">4</a>).
And from the little knowledge I have gathered I think it's possible to make
7 Hz 'tone' using a basic design.
<img src="http://www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/infrasound/whistle2.gif" width="225" height="201" align="top"> http://

www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/infrasound/whistle3.gif
Simple Diagram Showing the Operation of a Whistle and The

Design of an Efficient Lip to Cut Down Turbulence
So, because of that research I found a bastardized equation for whistle frequency:
f = 17174 / L, where f = frequency or pitch in Hz , L = length in centimeters

and the diameter to length ratio is 1: 2
With a little simple math this leads me to conclude that a 248.714 cm long,
12.435 cm diameter tube would produce a ~7 Hz tone. I do not know how the size
of the fipple (hole that lets air out) effects the design so experimentation
would be required (unless someone here knows).
If this whistle were to be powered by compressed air, or something to that

effect, I think it would be possible to get a sufficient decibel level. Anyway,
I'm sure there are people here far more knowledgeable than myself, is this possible?
If so, is there anything I've let out that could adversely effect the performance
of the device?
<a name="1"></a>1.
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://www.overloadmedia.co.uk/library/deadvib.shtml" >http://www.overloadmedia.co.uk/
library/deadvib.shtml</a>
<a href="http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.borderlands.com%
2Farchives%2Farch%2Fgavreaus.htm">http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?
site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.borderlands.com%2Farchives%2 Farch%2Fgavreaus.htm</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Skyopen/message/1495" >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
Skyopen/message/1495</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://hometown.aol.com/ultra21753/" >http://hometown.aol.com/ultra21753/</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://www.ocarina.demon.co.uk/horror.html" >http://www.ocarina.demon.co.uk/
horror.html</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://home.intekom.com/salbu/apollo/HumB.html" >http://home.intekom.com/salbu/
apollo/HumB.html</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://home.intekom.com/salbu/apollo/Infrasound_JohnCody.html" >http://
home.intekom.com/salbu/apollo/Infrasound_JohnCody.html</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://home.intekom.com/salbu/apollo/HumA.html" >http://home.intekom.com/salbu/
apollo/HumA.html</a>
<a name="2"></a> 2.
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://accoustics.superkuh.com/infrasound/" >My Directory of Infrasound Related pdfs</a>
<a target=_top target=_top href="http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/altmann.html" >Acoustics.org on Infrasound Effects</
a>
<a name="3"></a> 3. <a target=_top target=_top href="http://accoustics.superkuh.com/vortex/" >My Vortex Project (in
design stage)</a>
<a name="4"></a> 4. <a target=_top target=_top href="http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/4915/02.HTM" >Basic
Whistle Design</a>
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Bander ]

Agent Blak October 13th, 2001, 03:06 AM
The question on my mind is...
"Is the Deployment of this type of Device Practical Outside of the Lab?"
The only way I can see this working is as a leave behind device. Possibley operating off of a 12g CO2 Powerlet or a 9oz
Paintball style tank. Unless you can figure out a way that this could be used and not harm the user it severely limits this type
of device.
Although maybe you could use it with a CO2 Powerlet(12g) as Sonic Grenade of sorts. There is a thread statred by myself from
sometime back under the name of White Noise; there is a lot of info on Frequencey of sound etc. it might be worth a gander.
------------------
Go <a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak")here</a> to download my files.
Machiavelli October 13th, 2001, 07:42 AM

A french scientist called Gavreaux worked on this stuff, he planned to mount the sonic generators on robotic platforms.
Anyway, great post Bander. I've been interested in this stuff for a long time, but couldn't find any useful resources on sound
generation.
------------------
Give someone a match and he'll feel warm for a few seconds, set him on fire and he'll feel warm for the rest of his life
Bander October 13th, 2001, 05:17 PM

About the potentially lethality of an infrasound device to the user, yes I did realize this (primarily from my readings about
Gavreaux's work).
I really don't see how making a delay system would be that hard. If anything finding a pipe with the specified length and
diameter is going to be a bitch.
Heh, also I don't think a sonic grenade would quite work. The pipe's length is around 8ft. I think I remember that thread...I'll
check it out again, thanks.
A long time ago a member of the forum, 'feticidalfantasy' or something to that effect suggested powering a 7Hz device with a
small aircraft engine as a compressor. Imagine the chaos it would cause if the theory is true. http://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
------------------
Round the firewall, Out the modem, Past the server, Through the router, Down the wire, NOTHING BUT NET.

What about a sonic missle? with something like that we eliminate the need for a deployment and power source method. you
could set it up to be propelled by LARGE rocket engines and have it pass slose to the ground that way the missle would have
air blown into the intake, and be deployable.
any ideas on this?
------------------

While the idea of an infrasonic rocket is interesting, but I don't think it would stay over the target for long enough to have any
effect.
Also, I re-read a bit of the 'white noise' thread and did a little research on 33hz tones. The information I found conflicts with
the claims of the thread.
http://home.intekom.com/salbu/apollo/apollo2.html
and
http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/forum/science/archive/messages/1950.html
But I'd love to further discuss and expierement with that frequency for obvious reasons (it'd probably be easier to make 33Hz
whistle than a 7Hz, and more fun). Now I just have to find someone/something that will make a aluminum pipe to my
specifications, or a formula that will allow for a different diameter to length ratio.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Bander (edited October 13, 2001).]

Wouldnt something powered by Co2 be so loud that it would damage/destroy hearing? No frequency technology would be
needed that way, just decibels.

I don't think so Bob, unless you make a really bad whistle (lots of tubulence, ect). The co2 expanding might make a little
noise, but not that much. If I wished to make a device to damage hearing (as opposed to a whole body weapon) I'd just
make a really loud 3khz tone. The best part about infrasound is exactly what it's name denotes, you cannot hear it.
Also, powering a whistle type device with co2 might have an adverse effect on the frequency. Sound travels at a different
speed in pure co2, and even though this whistle design (as opposed to an open tube) doesn't depend on the speed of sound
that much, it still might change the frequency the output. Which is why I feel compressed air is the best 'fuel' for a device like
this.
------------------
nbk2000 October 14th, 2001, 08:50 PM

Not directly related to infrasound, but related in the way of using sound as a weapon.
I had the idea of using those electronic earmuffs that shooters use that filter out loud noises, and modifying them to filter out
certain frequencies.
Those frequencies would be coming from high powered electronc "screamer" grenades, like the jogger alarms, only MUCH
louder.
The screamers are tossed into a place you're about to do your business in, and anyone inside is going to be deafened.
Unable to hear each other, or you, they'd be easier to deal with.
You, on the other hand, can still hear just fine any noises the targets make. The advantage is yours.
As for infrasound, I class that in the same catagory as EMP, HERF, Rail Guns, and other "Be neat to have if I ever take over
the world or make a billion dollars" weapons.
Neat to think of, but not within our reach. Stick to guns and bombs, the old reliables.
Speaking of which, this'd be part of the new rules. "NO talk of homemade EMP, HERF, etc, etc. It's a waste of time and
counterproductive."
------------------

it may be counter productive but even just the concepts of these weapons is interesting. or maybe how to combat EMP devices
if employed against you...
Jhonbus October 20th, 2001, 11:33 PM

Bander is correct in saying that using CO2 would adversely affect the operation of the whistle as a weapon. The
formula stated for the frequency of a whistle is for air only. This formula would include a different constant for operation in
different gases.
Think of breathing helium. Helium has a much lower molecular mass than air, and so the resonance frequency of the larynx is
increased, producing a mickey mouse voice. The opposite is true of breathing Argon - it gives you an "arnold schwarzenneger
voice" (Beware - to remove argon from the lungs you must bend over and breathe deeply several times or risk asphyxiation.)
(I have also tried this with CO2, also heavier than air, but not as much as argon. It produces the same "Arnie"
voice, but unfortunately has an adverse affect on consciousness, so you can only get a few words out before falling on your
arse)
Using CO2 would reduce the resonance frequency of the whistle cavity.
------------------
You must create.
[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited October 20, 2001).]
PYRO500 October 21st, 2001, 01:37 AM

I didn't know you could do that with argon, but I have heard about doing that with sulfur hexa floride, I would not recomend
anyone try CO2 as it does not only displace air, but it becomes toxic very rapidly and can kill, I had a 12 OZ CO2 paintball
tank burst it's seals due to overfilling and I barely got out of my room when I woke up.
------------------
nbk2000 October 21st, 2001, 03:27 AM

Try breathing SF6 and you'll sound like Schwarzenegger when you talk. COOOL. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
tongue.gif (I know one of the SFx gases is toxic, just got the wrong one. NBK2000) Still not a good idea though.
Argon is inert, thus no toxic effects besides simple asphixiation from air displacement. CO2 alters blood gas balance since it is
absorbed.
Since gas density affects resonance, why not use the densest gases you can? I'm thinking freons. High molecular weights,
inert, liquids under pressure that readily vaporize at ambient, and available.
Like a pocket airhorn, only evil. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
As for being counter-productive, it is. All these things are being developed by the military because the CNN effect has them
scared of killing "innocent" civilians. Thus the search for non-lethal weapons.
We, on the other hand, as civilians, aren't bound by any such restrictions as the geneva convention, hague treaty, CBW, or
any other "Rules of War". Thus, we can strive for the most lethal, heinous weapons conceivable, limited only by our
allowances. HAHAHA! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited October 21, 2001).]
PYRO500 October 21st, 2001, 01:53 PM

I saw it on the jay leno show, I also found several web pages like these.
http://www.physics.umd.edu/deptinfo/facilities/lecdem/h6-05.htm
and a msds I checked before posting.
http://www.boc.com/gases/pdf/msds/G080.pdf
------------------
"Death may come from above, but terror most certainly comes from below."

Sorry to continue a counterproductive topic but I've found the most exceptional source of physics information that has
existed...well, quite simply, EVER. It includes a great section on open, closed, and conical tube resonance!
HyperPhysics (http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html)
and
Sound Resonance Section (http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/rescon.html)
Also, I agree with you to an extent nbk2000, but I believe non-lethals do have a place in the civilian arsenal. While we are not
bound by any restrictions, public opinion could be very important in some cases (also, you could avoid the death penalty if
caught). If you are trying to coerce the public to believe in your cause it'd probably be best not to kill anyone, else the media
would have more material to vilify you.
------------------
nbk2000 October 25th, 2001, 11:53 PM

I'm not saying all less-lethal weapons (more accurate description than non-lethal) are useless, just that the applications must
be considered diferently than in the military context.
We would use LLWs because we need the targets alive for a purpose later on. Such as access codes, combinations, or such.
NOT because we give a fuck about what CNN is going to say about it.
I'm including LLWs in the NBKv2 since they have applications in robbery, kidnapping, etc.
One must always have lethal weapons on hand though for use if the LLW proves inadequate or if the target responds with
lethal force.
Remember the RTPB: "Victory Through Superior Firepower".
Also, even if you don't kill anyone, you can still get life in prison with no parole (the Big Bitch) or so many years from multiple
counts that you'll never parole.
Now, faced with the prospect of 40 years of life in prison, doesn't death in 5 sound like a much better alternative? Having been
there, I'd say kill me quick.
------------------
Mr Cool November 22nd, 2001, 12:10 PM

Not an infrasound weapon, but a sound weapon which appeared in a recent New Scientist mag:
It consists of a polymer tube, 1m long and 4cm in diameter, with piezoelectric discs all the way down it's length, facing the
opening at the end. The first disc has an electric pulse applied to it, causing a shock wave to travel down the tube. The wave is
then amplified in a laser-like fashion, so that when the wave reaches the next disc, that disc fires so it amplifies the pulse.
The device operates at 6 to 10 KHz (I think that's what it said), and can produce 140 dB. Apparently effective range will be c.
100m. It causes intense pain and temporary/permanent hearing loss.
Shouldn't be too hard to improvise really, if you assume that the speed of sound is constant in all weather conditions. If not
you'll need sensors to time the firing, but I think this would be uneccesary (I hate trying to spell that word, I'm sure I always
get it wrong...) with a tube only 1m long, since the effect over the tube's length would be very small.
Apparently the inventor made a small version which nearly knocked him over or something. Get the magazine if you want
more detail, I can't remember the rest.
Cricket November 26th, 2001, 05:25 PM

I once heard on the Discovery channel (Non Lethal Alternatives) that if you direct two seperate VHF (30,000hz seems right)
waves at an animal, it will cause sever discomfort and nausea. Then It showed a computer created demonstration of what it
would look like. They had two pipes about 5 meters apart shooting the waves at people so that they would intersect just below
his sternum (chest bone). Then that had what was basically a pipe with a fuel (kerosene I think) injector and spark plug in it
that supposedly caused the same effects. If anyone has cable, the Discovery Channel shows several shows in the evening of
the weekends. This is quiet interesting to me, as is the White Noise. In a recent JC Whitney catalog, I saw a speaker that
played as low as 10hz for 50USD. That was very cheap and twice as low as any other speakers I could find. I plan to buy it it
within the next 1-2 months and do some testing with it http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.
------------------

I've got that discovery Channel show on tape!
I'm including bits of it my PDF.
If you could give anything more specific about that article, I may be able to find it on the net.
------------------
Cricket November 28th, 2001, 04:43 PM

Yea, thats why I like watching cop shows and the like, to learn how not to get cought doing anything fun. Lets see, what was
that guys name... ah I think it was Lt. Sidney Heal (he was on that show), but I'm not sure. You will see him on many of the
non-lethal shows and of California's gunfights and car chases. He is (or was when the show was taped) a Marine reservist and
got sent to Desert Storm and helped in the devleopment of many non-lethal weapons. That tape you have is valuable. It talks
about a study they did in the late 70's of a massive bubble generator to make running harder. Now a days they have
something simular in effect (although the people in the bubbles seem as if they are having a good ol time at a pool party),
but it is like the shit Spider Man shoots from his wrists. They just shoot the bag guy and he is essentially stuck. One example
of the value of the show would be is if it said what the foam was. If it did (it might), you might find out that it is water soluble.
In such a case, if you thought fast, you would try to set off the springlers if you are inside (possibly by shooting the sprinkler
heads). And the SWAT probably won't be trained what to in that situation, giving you an extra edge and possibly evading
capture or aiding in doing so. So if you know all kinds little odds and ends like that, you will be much more likely to know what
they will do and what to do to counter act that. One example is in some LA (I think thats where it was) prison riots, the guards
would just start lobbing stingball grenades left and right. The prisoners didn't like that to they started using thier matresses as
shields (a good idea). But eventually, they started dropping them from the floors above them. Sorry to get off topic though.
And I am not sure what you mean, nbk2000, by more specific. I will try to see if it is on this weekend and tape it. Well I just
went to discovery.com and searched for it and I can't find it. Mabye someone else will have more luck. I think it was "On the
Inside".
------------------

I've seen those "glue guns" you're talking about that stick people's legs together so they can't run. They reminded me of the
guns the Ghost-busters have...
Anyway, I believe it can be removed with an oil - pour oil over it, and you can pull it off without it sticking to your hand. When
it has been takem off an area, cover that area in oil so it won't stick back on.
I don't have any more details on the device I was talking about. I think the company that patented it was called "American
Technologies".
------------------
Bander December 9th, 2001, 02:11 PM

Here's a link to the piezo-electric sound weapon mentioned by Mr. Cool.
Pentagon considers ear-blasting anti-hijack gun (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991564).
The Ultrasound weapon is a semi-proven concept and I have read about it's use to induce naseau many times before.
Amazing1.com (http://www.amazing1.com/ultra.htm) has something analogous to that device in their ultrasound section. The
kerosene accoustic weapon most likely was infrasound (human flesh resonance) weapon to achieve the same effect. After all, I
don't think it's possible to get a combustion tube like that firing 30,000 times a second.
While I love the idea of accoustical weapons, and I do believe they are possible, one has to look at all sides of the
arguement. I suggest anyone interested read this paper by the Acoustical Society of America (http://www.acoustics.org/press/
137th/altmann.html).
------------------
[This message has been edited by Bander (edited 12-09-2001).]
atropine January 1st, 2002, 04:23 PM

i thought that frequency was almost directly proportional too the preasure supplied too the whistle. Correct me if im wrong. Oh
another frequency is 16Hz which induces epilepsy, and 18.5Hz which makes eye balls resonate
Mr Cool January 1st, 2002, 05:45 PM

(Edit: Sorry, the main point of this post has already been covered.)
Uurrrghh, that'd be horrid, having a weapon that makes people's eye balls wobble themselves to bits.
[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]

Exploding eyeballs....sounds fun :)
Wouldn't be much of a stretch of the imagination to envision the Feds using something like that though. They've already
developed and are field testing a "non-lethal" weapon that uses directed microwave energy to raise your skin temperature to
around 50C, analogous to touching a 150 watt lightbulb to your skin.
The pain of this is supposeded to "deter" you from whatever it is that you're doing. They do admit though that continued
exposure to the beam (more than 20 seconds) will cause 3rd degree burns.
I can see how the seattle WTO riots would have gone if this was already in existance at the time>>>>>
We were trying to disperse the protestors at the World Trade Organization summit by using our newest humane non-lethal
compliance device that gently heats the skin to feel like a sunburn.
But the protestors kept laying down to block the road. We had to aim at their faces because they deliberatly dressed in heavy
clothes to nullify our non-lethal weapons effect. They even tried to cover their faces in an effort to furthur resist
REALITY: The protestors faces were deliberatly targeted by pigs who think that anyone who doesn't do a 9 to 5, Ozzy and
Harriet lifestyle is untermensch (sub-human).
And when their eyes began to explode from being heated to boiling, the flesh peeling off their skulls, and their brains being
poached into goo, by a lethal energy weapon, they instinctly grabbed their faces and feel to the ground in agony and blind.
Oh, and they wore heavy clothes because it's fucking cold in Seattle.
Reality is nothing, Perception is the TRUE Reality. And he with the best spin doctor, wins.
And the glue guns are bogus. Ever notice how in every demo that the "victim" is standing still? That's because the foam
doesn't do any good unless it gets into a big enough blob to get both legs stuck together.
Buckshot aimed at the legs is much more effective.

i found something interesting on that the other night. It works basicaly as a resonant tube which combustable air fuel mix is
burnt through. The frequency is regulated via a timing device much like that of a cars to ignite the mixture at the desired HZ.
Due to the fact that the tube is resonant and the "explosion" produces around 100db+ i think this would be great for trying as
a "theoretical" weapon. Sorrey about my spelling i just bin informed that im mildly dyslexic
Bander January 5th, 2002, 12:12 AM

[quote] ...resonant tube which combustable air fuel mix is burnt through. The frequency is regulated via a timing device much
like that of a cars to ignite the mixture at the desired HZ. Due to the fact that the tube is resonant and the "explosion"
produces around 100db+ i think this would be great for trying as a "theoretical" weapon. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, it is possible to generate very high decible level sounds in this manner. I think the best, cheapest, simplest way to
achieve this effect would be a pulse jet. I'm sure a quick look at the links below will explain the topic far better than I ever
could.
<a href="http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/howtheywork.shtml" target="_blank">How Pulse Jets Work</a>
<a href="http://home3.inet.tele.dk/kennethm/" target="_blank">A comprehensive archive of Pulse Jet design documents and
theory.</a>
<a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~tshipley/Engineering/MusicJet.0a0.html" target="_blank">Pulse Jets As Musical

Instruments</a>
Of course all the methods for generating the required frequencies of vibration are horribly crippled by the <a href="http://
230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/invsqs.html#c1" target="_blank">inverse square law</a> (not effective at long
distances), and omnidirectional except one: modulated high energy vortices. These vortices could carry chemical, marking, ect
agents as well. If any of these theorectical devices could succeed it would be a vortex weapon of some sort. On that note I
thought I'd mention my newly updated archive o' <a href="http://accoustics.superkuh.com/" target="_blank">acoustic
weapons</a>. Still a work in progress but the documents are there. ;)
Mr Cool January 5th, 2002, 07:20 AM

I saw a video of a high-powered vortex "cannon" firing at a sheet of water falling from some sprinklers. I know water isn't the
hardest of targets, but you could tell it was powerful. Looked enough to knock a man down, so it'd be good for using like an
anti-riot water jet, but not as a lethal weapon.
I think the vortex was made by a fuel/air combustion inside a large drum, which only had a small (a foot or so) opening. Also,
the edge of the opening may have been shaped to make the vortex more stable.
Bander January 6th, 2002, 02:00 AM

You may download the vortex impact video mentioned above <a href="http://www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/vortex/
vortex%20launcher%20impact.mpg" target="_blank">here</a>.
http://www.ict.fhg.de/images/photos/wi-1sf_13.gifhttp://www.amasci.com/wing/smrg4.gif
Yep, pretty much just a tube with a vortex forming plate on the end. A better design would be a modified 2 stroke engine
hooked up to a pipe. One of the big keys to a successful design is to minimize the standing shock wave, turbulence, and
burning. Laval nozzels do this quite well.
http://theblog.hypermart.net/thurstonia/miscimage/vortex_shockwave.gif
Illustration of muzzle blast showing (a) turbulence, burning, shocks and (b) traveling blast shockwave and stationary mach
disk.
http://theblog.hypermart.net/thurstonia/miscimage/vortex_destroyed.gif
Half view of vortex ring: (a) Expanding over normal shock and (b) ring being consumed by muzzle blast.
http://theblog.hypermart.net/thurstonia/miscimage/vortex_nozzle.gif
Optimal nozzle design.
*Most knowledge came from <a href="http://www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/vortex/Military%20Non-

lethal%20Vortex%20Research.pdf" target="_blank">this document</a>.

I remember a toy gun back in the early 80's that shot an air vortex up to 20' away that would move a foil strip target.
Kinda goofy actually, but the principle worked.
If someone found one and scaled it up it might be useful for something. As it was, it could have been used to propel a bit of
teargas powder or toxin.
BTW, the link to the video above was 404, but the file is still there at this link:
<a href="http://www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/vortex/vortex%20launcher%20impact.mpg" target="_blank">http://

www.darknebula.org/superkuh/science/vortex/vortex%20launcher%20impact.mpg</a>
Looks exactly the same to me, but it works.
You'll notice in the video that there's about a seconds delay between the two impacts. Which, from the perceived distance
between the two water screens, would indicate a fairly low speed.
From what I've read, the latest military incarnation of this goes about 100 m/s with enough force to hurt at that distance
(100m). A football field in one second. :eek:
Bander January 6th, 2002, 04:57 PM

The toy in question is the "<a href="http://www.yesterdayland.com/popopedia/shows/toys/ty1114.php"
target="_blank">Wham-o-Puff</a>" gun. They were pretty popular back in the day until they were taken off the market.
Apparently some kid thought it would be funny to shoot it in his sister's ear, blew out her eardrum. They can still be bought on
auction sites such as ebay for a good sum of money.
*Link Fixed*
About the speed of military vortices, SARA's HETV (High Energy Toroidal Vortex) was capable of speeds from .5 to .8 the speed
of sound and could carry up to 500 joules of energy within it's rapidly rotating core. Compare this to the 449 joules of a 9mm
bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1099 ft/s. Pretty impressive. :D

Bander - d'ya know roughly what the diameter of the vortex from the military one was?

http://theblog.hypermart.net/thurstonia/miscimage/HETV.jpg
From the above picture of the HETV I'd estimate around 6". But I cannot be sure. So I've just sent an email to one of the
creators pretending to be a high school student doing a science project on non-lethal weapons. Hopefully I can get a few more
specifics very soon.
<a href="http://www.sara.com/" target="_blank">Scientific Applications & Research Associates, (SARA) Inc.</a> is the
commercial entity (military contractor) that makes it.
The military is also working on adapting their series of grenade launchers to cut deployment costs. In their words:
[quote]
A canidate platform for military police and law enforcement communities is the GL-6 repeating revolver 40mm grenade
launcher. The concept is to provide a two piece kit that retrofits to the gun and provides quick converstion between lethal and
non-lethal modes of operation. The kit consists of a set of blank cartridges and a disposable rod which slides into the barrel
and afixes to the muzzle.
<hr></blockquote>
The rod serves as the vasal nozzle and injects chemical agents applied to it's surface into the vortex. Auto grenade launchers
are being considered as well to take advantage of resonance effects.

Excellent, a picture says a thousand words. Yeah, looks c. 6". I thought it might have been some huge great 3' diameter one.
I've started work on a little model, which may or may not have potential to be scaled up to something decent. Very simple - a
1.5' long bit of 4.5" diameter pipe, with the nozzle on one end (I'm making it similar to the one in the picture Bander posted)
that will have an opening of around 1-2". The other end will have a balloon attached inside it, that when inflated will force the
air out of the nozzle. The balloon will be inflated by pumping up an air chamber to X psi (I'll have to do some testing to find
the best pressure), and then discharging this through a ball valve or sprinkler valve or something into the balloon, to rapidly
inflate it. I was going to have an air/propane mixture, but I thought this way would make it simpler to get consistent results,
and using the balloon rather than dumping the air straight in will reduce the turbulence inside the big bit of pipe, which has got
to be a good thing I suppose. The balloon then deflates by itself through a small opening in the pipe which carries the air
from the compresssion chamber to the balloon. I'll try to draw you a diagram to help explain if that isn't clear.
Might work, might not. What do you think?

It sounds like it would work for low power testing, as long as you keep the inflation time sufficiently short. That's one of the
keys to forming a good vortex.
Also, vasal nozzles are mostly used to expand gases to atmospheric pressure and eliminate standing shock, problems your
device won't have. A simple hole in a typical vortex forming plate configuration will probably give you near the same
performance with much less hassle. Plus if you start with a small hole you can test progressively bigger holes easily to find the
best ratio. I'd skip the laval nozzle for now. Otherwise it's sounds great.
I'm sure we all know many ways to generate smoke to make the vortices visible, but combining the vapors of hydrochloric acid
and ammonia worked the best for me. Just soak two paper towels with the respective liquids and set them in the device. Nice
and simple. Toxic fumes make the vortices infinetly more fun as well. :D
mrloud January 11th, 2002, 12:11 AM

I once used a vortice generating device to blow smoke rings a distance of seven or eight metres. It was as simple as an old
bass drum with a 50cm diameter circular hole cut out of one side. A quick squirt from a smoke machine to fill up the drum and
I would beat the other side (without the hole) of the drum with a beater. A 1m diameter smoke ring would launch itself out of
the drum and shoot accross the stage at about 3 or 4 m/sec.
This leads me to think that a great quantity of air is not required to generate an air vortex. Just a short sharp pulse at one
end of a tube. I think a ball valve will release the air far too slowly to be much use. There is a different type of valve available
though. I cant remember what they are called but they are almost digital. They are either open or closed and at the touch of a
button they open, instantly releasing the pressure behind them. I suspect paintball guns use this type of thing.

Yeah, I realised that about those nozzles today. I remembered the diagram wrong, and thought the vortex was produced
inside the nozzle and was helped to stay stable by the walls.
Better idea for getting gas into it - an exhaust valve like on good pneuamtic spud guns, the ones with the piston that flies
back and uncovers the rear end of the barrel so the air can rush in. They open almost instantly.
Yeah, I've now decided to have a smaller volume chamber, and a smaller amount of gas going into it, since a c. 6" diameter
vortex dosn't need much air, and any excess air would probably only disrupt it rather than helping.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Respect Primers More
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View Full Version : Respect Primers More
HMTD Factory October 15th, 2001, 03:29 PM

Tinkering with firearm primers is very tempting for explosive lovers of our like. Before you glue some primers onto your airgun pellets, wanting to have some fun, you have a
letter to read. This letter is found in June 1993 issue of American Rifleman. From Darrell W. Norman of Fernley, Nev. to the editors.
Take Care With Duds
Editor:
I was making a letter holder from .308 and
.30-'06 brass, all of which had dented primers and was, I thought, fired. I figured
I was safe as I soldered them together.
I was heating one with a propane torch and heard an explosion. The primer, though dented, still had some priming compound intact. I felf a hot funny feeling in my right chest
and when I lifted my shirt, blood was running from an entrance wound. It caused a weird sensation, and I felt a little faint.
At the emergency room, they took several X-rays to try to locate the primer. I ended up spending 24 hours in the trauma ward.
Later I had an allergic reaction and broke out in hives. More X-rays showed the primer 2 1/2" deep in my right lower lung. The doctor theorize that it was as hot as 1800
degree when it entered abd probably cauterized the flesh as it went. They decided removing it would cause more damage than leaving it where it is.
It doesn't seem like much, but it was very scary and could have been fatal if it hit my heart. So don't trust a dented primer--it may be a dud or just look like a dud!
---------------------------------------------
Why cartridges for letter holders? Appreciate it before civilians lose the right to tinker around with "dangerous stuff".
Now if it were a detonation of a fresh primer, instead of a crooked one, that entered Mr. Norman's brain, instead of his chest, Mr. Norman would probably be killed instantly.
Now guess what will happen to his
propane torch that he dropped, and hadn't been turned off?
Remember a firearm primer is a two-piece assembly that comes apart readily into fragments when detonated. It could surprise people to see the primer breaks free from glue
or whatever ways the user wanted to had them secured.
In a firing cartridge, the primer will try to pop out of the case's head, but backed by the bolt face. When the powder ignited, the cartridge pops back and seats the primer back
in. So you can see that the friction of the primer pocket doesn't hold the primer when it fires, yet all fired cartridges had primers intact that people are fooled to underestimate
a primer as a leathal projectile in itself.

Good warning for the KewLs, the less accidents anyone has relating to any of our "hobbies" the better.
He should have removed the spent primer (using the correct tools, no pounding), then soldered them together, then taken some good primers, soaked them in water to
remove the priming compound and inserted the empty cups. This is not only safe, it makes for a better looking job as well.
------------------
"Sex at age 90 is like trying to shoot pool with a rope." George Burns
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
Boob Raider May 9th, 2003, 02:34 PM

a new thread so here is my problem. I can buy fired .22 cal shells (small ones) but I need a license to purchase primed shells. Is it possible to re-prime those fired shells I can
buy from the army store and if it is .... how may I do it.
Liam C. May 9th, 2003, 11:13 PM

Yes it is possible to do it, but with the method I tried it's horribly time consuming and tedious work when you consider what you're getting out of it. Another consideration is
there's no guarantee that you won't have misfires....
The method I used, which I originally got from an old Ragnar Benson book, was to thoroughly brush out and clean the brass (removing the firing pin dent from the rim as well)
first.
Next, you remove the tips from a bunch of Strike Anywhere Matches and add just enough water to make a thin paste out it. Here's where your problems begin, IMO. I don't
think that you're really getting a homogenous mixture when doing this, resulting in some shells getting a good dose of chemicals and others getting pretty much nothing but
inert crap. Anyways, after you've made your paste you paint the inside base of the cleaned brass with it making sure that it's getting into the crushable rim. If the paste is too
thick it won't want to seep in there. Then let it thoroughly dry out.
Once it's dry, you can reload it normally (with reloading powder) or use whatever improvised goody you have for it. Ragnar mentioned a 1/1 mix of sugar/chlorate so that was
what I tried. I reprimed 30 rounds and reloaded with the sugar/chlorate, then proceeded to attempt to fire them all. Success was about 50% on the first run through. I then
took the unfired ones and ran them through again and maybe 3 or 4 fired. I didn't try the rest a third time.
They can be reloaded, but you'll want to try a different primer mix for sure as the strike anywhere method isn't consistently reliable at all...
irish May 10th, 2003, 06:01 AM

Boob Raider,
when you say you can get small .22 shells do you mean .22 lr or mag rimfire rounds or centrefire cases like 5.56 NATO ?.
centrefires are easey to reload reliabley rimfires are not.

You could spin the shells to get the priming comp. distributed evenly along the insides. But I think it's be better to reload centerfire shells.

I was talking about. http://www.boomspeed.com/boobraider/22cal01.JPG and [/url] http://www.boomspeed.com/boobraider/22cal02.JPG[/url]
Anyways I think I am going to use the powder actuated tool blanks instead, with a teflon or Al slug crimped on them for my MAG LITE pistol.
But for curiosity sake ... what are the compounds used to prime cartriges ... esp .22 rimfire ?
irish May 10th, 2003, 08:30 PM

Those are .22 lr, not worth the bother of reloading go with the blanks.
I think the main comp of rimfire prime is lead azide mixed I presume with a binder.
zaibatsu May 11th, 2003, 07:03 AM

Lead Styphenate I think. Although I heard the Russians still use MF because it's the only thing that'll go off reliably at those temperatures.
Liam C. May 11th, 2003, 04:36 PM

I always thought it was Lead Azide as well, although I see no reasom why Lead Styphenate or MF can't be used too.
".....You could spin the shells....."
Ya know zaibatsu, I have a centrifuge and it never occurred to me to try that! That's so simple it can't help but work... :)
Boob Raider,
I agree with irish. I assume the MAGLITE pistol is a single shot. You'll have alot less headaches using the power hammer blanks, I believe.

I emptied out one of the blanks ... took a while as the brass is hard. It cracks while being opened. Anyways ... here is a pic of the powder in it http://www.boomspeed.com/
boobraider/Openedblank.JPG can someone ID the powder and tell me weither or not it is good for cartriges ?
Also I took one flare apart ..... the small hand fired one (pen sized) and I found only the flare comp and this cap seperated by a sponge in the polyethylene flare case. http://
www.boomspeed.com/boobraider/Flareprimercap02.JPG and http://www.boomspeed.com/boobraider/Flareprimercap01.JPG Is that cap powerful enough to shoot out an ~ 8g
flare 30 ft in the air ?
irish May 13th, 2003, 01:51 AM

bit hard to id any powder even looking at it first hand but it should be ok for what you want.
just be carefull for a few shots that it does not have too much pressure with a bullet.
edit= fixing my shitty spelling.
Liam C. May 13th, 2003, 03:04 AM

Take a look at the barrel size (thickness) on a powerhammer, and consider the size of barrel you intend to put in your mag-light. I'll say right now that that is way more
powder than you need. Heck, I haven't even seen that much out of a .22lr. Also, it just looks like double base powder to me (look kinda like little paper circles?).
I don't remember which power load is yellow... Is that the strongest one?
Anyway, you probably already know what follows but I'll feel better saying it (so, no offense intended)... When you build your 'zeeper' do a lot of remote firing/testing. Start
out using the weakest blank with only half the powder load in it (without projectile), to make sure your firing mechanism works consistently. Then begin testing it with
projectile included, starting with the lowest load (as described above) work your way up in powder loads and blank sizes until the barrel bursts. If the barrel doesn't burst using
the strongest load, that's cool too. Now you should have a good idea of the limits that your barrel type can handle. Then build another one and scale it back down a few loads.
If it'll fire at least ten consecutive rounds without any barrel deformation, cracks, etc. it should be safe (for that size load) to hand fire... although if it was me, I would make
yet another (fresh) barrel just like the previous two to actually put in the flashlight.
".....Is that cap powerful enough to shoot out an ~ 8g flare 30 ft in the air ?...."
With that particular powerload, I see no reason why not. It would probably do it with half that much powder, but now I'm guessing...
irish May 21st, 2003, 05:50 AM

Bit more info re primers plus some other interesting stuff on the MSDS from olin au,
http://www.olin.com.au/MSDS/htm/MSDS's.htm
zaibatsu is correct about the primer comp.
edit= fixing link.

Is it possible to reuse primer caps. Lets say I remove the caps from the spent casings, wash them with hot H2O, clean them, and fill them with Pb-styphanate or Hg-fulminate.
Then can I use these caps to reload shells ? Or does the cap undergoe some change (eg. position of the anvil) that it can't be reused. This is my only option to reload 9mm
parabellums as I need a FAC to purchase primers.

When the firing pin strikes the primer it dints the end and bends the anvil. You can reshape it, and there is something in one of the PMJBs about it. You could use the mix from
matchheads as an impro primer comp.
prespec April 3rd, 2007, 04:18 AM

If you have access to a copy of 'Hatchers Notebook' , there is a reference in there to an arsenal worker blithely strolling along , enjoying the sound made by several thousand
primers rattling about in a steel bucket which he carried.
Shortly after , he was replaced by a smoking hole in the ground.
These things are dangerous and you will observe they are allways separated in packaging.
BTW.... Julian Hatcher was in charge of Aberdeen proving ground and several arsenals around the 1930's , and his book is an excellent source of info on many " I wonder what
would happen if..." questions, related to firearms and explosives, even if a bit dated.
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2007, 05:29 AM

And you brought up a 4 year old post to say that?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Im p r o v i s e d W e a p o n s > C ell-phone controlled spy vehicle
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View Full Version : Cell-phone controlled spy vehicle
J October 1st, 2001, 12:46 PM

I was just talking with an email contact about a computer controlled RC car he has built. O ne idea he had was to allow it to b e
controlled via the net. The disadvantage of this m ethod is that a com puter would have to be placed so as to be withing range
of the R C system. Either that, or the vehicle would have to have a phone, modem and a com p u t e r o f s o m e kind on board, + a
hefty battery pack.
My idea would dispense with e verything but the cell phone and a sm all comm and interpreter. To control the vehicle,
frequencies would be sent down the lin e, which would be translated into actions by the interpretter.
The circuitry would be sim ple (maybe even just a frequency controlled am plifier IC, a summ i n g a m p , a n d s o m e logic), and the
b a n d w i d t h o f t h e p h o n e l i n e i s h i g h e n o u g h t o h a v e m a n y c h a n n e l s . T h i s i s a n o t h e r a d v a n t a g e ; c o m mercial RC system s o f
m ore than 2 channels are expensive (especially those over 4).
T h e v i d e o c a m e r a c o u l d b e m o u n t e d o n directional stan d, which could be adjusted by the user over the phone. Wire l e s s v i d e o
cams can be bought off-the-shelf, alth ough they are usually low range.
T h e r a n g e c o u l d p r o b a b l y b e i m proved b y a d d i n g o n a n R F a m p ( p o s s i b l y d i s a b l i n g t h e o n e a l r e a d y on board first). This might
attract unwanted attention tho ugh.
T h e b a s i c ( m inus video receiver) control system could be smaller than a standard RF transmitter. It could h ave a built in cell-
phone, and/or have the ability to attach to a standard phone handset. It would sim ply generate the correct frequencies
acco rding to the com m a n d s o f t h e u s e r .
T h e v i d e o r e c e i v i n g e q u i p m e n t could b e a s m a l l m o n i t o r ( m aybe LCD) with the video receiver attached. Although no t feasible
now (AFAIK), in the future one of the next generation m o b i l e p h o n e ' s c o u l d b e u s e d . T h e s t a n d a r d p h o n e o n t h e v e h i c l e c o u l d
be replaced with a video capable phone, which would also receive the regular comm ands. Another phone could be built into the
controller to receive the video!
This will prob ably be another project th at I never get off the ground, but I thought I'd share the idea anyway. One obvious
disadvantage is the cost of the phone calls.
Another advantage is the sim plicity of the control unit. It would be easy to im provise in the field (m inus the video receiving
part) if the com mand syntax was carefully thought out. By comm and syntax, I'm thinking of whether a continuous frequency
would be transmitted (the com m and is carried out while the frequency is present), or a start and stop frequency pulse.
I ' d a p p r e c i a t e a n y s u g g e s t i o n s o r c o m m ents.
------------------
Snipie October 1st, 2001, 02:34 PM

W h y d o n t y o u j u s t u s e a P M R ( Private Mobile Radio) ?? they can transm it com m unications over 2 kilo m e t e r ( 1 . 6 m iles I
guess) and with tone squelch (CTCSS, or digital squelch DCS) you have plenty of channels free to use, and if you use som e
sort of encryption (very easy to m ake with a m icro controller) no one can take over your controls. The video transm ission is
s o m ewhat difficult over a long distance, but if you can e ncrypt th e signal to MPEG 4 (witch is very difficult) it is possible to
transm it it th r o u g h t h e P M R I g u e s s , m aybe low quality and a low FPS.
A f r i e n d o f m ine is working on a video signal trans mitter (range 300 M) for his RF helicop ter, and he is using s o m e I C s f rom
M a x i m (<A HREF="http://www.m axim- ic.com"> Maxim </A>) I t h o u g h t h e s us ing t h e M A X 2 6 2 0 , b u t I m n o t s ure.
M a x i m o f f e r s f r e e s a m ples from there IC assortm ent (I tried it, and I have now 1 6 brand new ICs in front of m e http://
theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b / s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif).
[This message has been edited by Snipie (edited October 01, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Snipie (edited October 01, 2001).]
Predator October 1st, 2001, 05:03 PM

b e c a u s e a p m r o n l y h a s a 2 m i l e m a x r a n g e . . t h e c e l l p h o n e i d e a is limite d o n l y b y s a t e l l i t e a n d a t e n n a e c o v e r a g e
J October 1st, 2001, 05:56 PM

T h a n k s f o r t h e l i n k t o M a x i m , I'll probably have a use for the RF chips at som e point. Som e of the m l o o k i d e a l f o r b o o s t i n g
the power of a wireless video camera with not too many extra com p o n e n t s .
As p redator said, the point of using m o b i l e p h o n e s i s t h a t t h e r a n g e i s h u g e . I t w o u l d p r o b a b l y b e e a s i e r t o u s e s t a n d a r d R C

gear than PMR's, alth o u g h a s y s t e m that works on cell-phones could probably be hot-swapped directly for use with PMR's.
My P2 300 has difficulty with a lot of MPEG4 (DivX), never m ind a portable tx/rx setup :-( I think plain com posite video is the
way to go here, although it m ight be easier to build in encryption on the MPEG4 encoder/d e c o d e r t h a n d o t h e s a m e with
composite video. MPEG4 encoded video just m ight be com pact e nough to send over a standard phone line at very low quality,
whereas there's no chance with com p o s i t e .
------------------
BoB- October 1st, 2001, 06:13 PM

It would be cool to have an onboard GPS to send inform ation through the cellphone, that way your model a irplane, or car could
be tracked and controlled from miles away.
------------------
T e a m work is essential.
It lets you to b l a m e s o m e o n e e l s e .
mrloud October 3rd, 2001, 04:41 AM

The brain of your spy vehicle could be an old 486 laptop running Linux. Linux supports the AX.25 protocol which is a way to set
up a TCP/IP network over a radio link. You could then send and recieve data from the vehicle over the one data link which
could be encrypted using the linux version of PGP.
A digital cam era will plug straight into the laptop. A friend of mine has a sm all robot which is software controlled via an RS232
port. The robot and software came as an inexpensive hobbyist's kit and could easily be adapted to contol forward, reverse, left
and right steering.
I d o n ' t s e e m to be able to find a straight answer as to what sort of bandwidth you can get using packet radio. I guess it
depends on the quality of the transceiver.
I would only use a cheap black and white CCD camera due to the limited bandwidth. Also B&W CC D cam eras can pick up infra
red.
Here is a link to the AX.25 Howto at www.linux.org (http://www.linux.org)
http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/AX25-HOW TO.htm l
This would be a very cheap and reliable way to control the vehicle but you'll need to be very knowlegeable with Linux and TCP/
IP networking.
J October 3rd, 2001, 07:44 AM

I've always b een curious abou t packet radio. It does seem very com p l i c a t e d a n d q u i t e e x p e n s i v e : - (
I've found th is site which has information about the hardware used and links to other sites:
<a href='http://www.wa4dsy.net/'>http://www.wa4dsy.ne t/</a>
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > Cross Bow mech.
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Agent Blak October 17th, 2001, 01:59 AM

I am interested in how the manufactoring of this would be carried out. I am interested in on that would be for a 400-500lbs
pull so it will have to be able to with stand some force. Will "Cold Rolled Mild" work? any help would be greatly appreciated.
Also can a low power scope be mounted on to a cross bow? or is it just aimed by line of sight?
------------------
SawedOff8gaugeman October 17th, 2001, 09:28 AM

A scope can be attached IF there is a rail for it. It's up to the xbows manufacturer. I really suggest making some kind of
sights, even simple iron sights. Maybe installing some adjustable surplus sights would do... Of course a multi-reticule scope is
the best...
400-500 lbs? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif Definitely not a toy.

400-500#'s ?!?!
You would need some kind of good spring steel or spring system, steel cable and solid steel shaftd bolts. Then there is the
factor of how you cock it, you would need some type of arming system for a 500# crossbow, unless you are one bad dude.
IIRC, most of the top end cross bows only top out at around 200-250#, I've shot a 125# one and they are wicked, 10" groups
at 100yds!!!
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
nbk2000 October 17th, 2001, 12:35 PM

Car leaf spring for the bow, and a winch to draw it back. Steel wire rope for the string, and small rebar for arrows. OUCH!
Rent the movie "The Good Son" with Macaulay Culkin (the "Home Alone" punk). He has a crossbow built like this that he uses
to skewer dogs with.
BTW, they got the design from a 30's popular science article. Read some of them at a library if you can, all kinds of neat shit
in those old magazines.
As an aside, if I was the burglars from Home Alone, I'd either leave the fucking place alone, or surround it with 20 gallons of
napalm and burn the fucking place to the ground with the screaming brat in it. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gif
------------------
Agent Blak October 17th, 2001, 01:18 PM

The bow is made from the leaf spring off on an old truck I belive about 30" long x 1 1/2" wide x 7/16 thick. I am using a
cocking mech. aswell so don't worry about that. I got the idea from PMJB vol 3, P.62. I am thinking about using the mech
design from shown there.
------------------

what about one of those mini winch things they use for strapping things down, they can pull alot. and a 500 pound crossbow! if
the bowstring ever broke you'd lose probably more than a digit. that would make a good sniper weapon, assuming you have a
good projectile. I think I'd have trouble with a 250 pound crossbow and I consider myself a large guy, past a certain point it
will cut into your hands no matter your strength, you'd have to wear thick welding gloves to not hurt your hands
------------------

I would assume that Aircraft cable or laminated steel cable would be most appropiate. I levered/ratched system seemed to be
most practical.
------------------
"...Never, never--We don't exist,
We don't collect, We don't know,
No body knows anything and
If there is a bullet coming at
The head of the United States
Then we can tell you precisely what
time it is going to Arrive"
--Nicholas Rostow

did it occour to anyone that letting off a 500lb crossbow would rip your shoulder right off?
and, if you did have a 500lb crossbow, how do you plan on aiming it? it would wiegh a ton.
i made a crossbow with a leaf spring from a 2tonne truck, and mounted it on a piece of 50x40x4mm section steel, and used a
low geared boat whinch to cock it and used a piece of 20mm re-bar for a test bolt
the first test, the boat whinch stripped it gears even before i could cock it
so i got a better an stronger whinch, and managed to wind it back an cock it.
as i was preparing to release the whinch clip(and i'll point out at this time, i wasn't holding onto the bow, i had it mounted on
the ground) the 200kg steel cable which i used for the bow string snapped, and the bow flipped up in the air and came
crashing to the ground.
after finding some 400kg cable, i tried again, and this time i managed to fire it
only it snapped the makeshift stock in half, and launched the half that whinch was attatched to into a wall, distroying the
whinch on impact.
the bolt was found in 2 trees, it hit the first tree, and snapped in half, launching the other half into a tree next to it.
(and i assume there was a 3rd pice that broke off because the 2 halves in the trees never fitted together)
so yes, a 500lb would be cool, but as for sniper type applications, it would be pointless because you could not fire it accuratly,
or without snapping your body in half.
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited October 19, 2001).]
Predator October 19th, 2001, 03:30 PM

On a 500lb bow you'd better be using some very sturdy bolts/projectiles unless you want the bolt/projectile to snap upon
launching and take your arm with it
SawedOff8gaugeman October 19th, 2001, 03:53 PM

BTW, do normal, for instance 150lb xbows have a strong recoil? I'm interested because have never fired one http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Compare to rifle calibers?

I am not stupid enough to fire an untested weapon from my sholder. To me is it common sense tomount it to test fire it. But
the warnings are much appriciate.
------------------
A wise man once said: "...Never, never--We don't exist, We don't collect, We don't know,
No body knows anything and If there is a bullet coming at the head of the United States then we can tell you precisely what
time it is going to Arrive" --Nicholas Rostow
(Blak, you're signature is seriously getting out of hand, verging on kewl. Trim it down to 3 lines or less. NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited October 19, 2001).]
EventHorizon October 19th, 2001, 08:41 PM

Crossbows don't have "recoil" in the sense of firearms. The energy is away from you, hence the crossbows would pull it self out
of your hands rather then kick you down.
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PGP ID 0x147CEF54

Leafsprings come apart, I can bend the longest section on this leafspring I have using all my bodyweight, but when it was all
together It felt like my spine was going to snap trying to get that thing to bend.
Imagine how far lightweight arrows would go in such a bow.
Zach October 20th, 2001, 11:53 PM

BoB-
F=M*A
Force = Mass x Acceleration.
So, you may be able to get that light weight "arrow" (actually a bolt) to go a long distance, but the force would be like getting
shot with a cottonball from a slingshot. There is also the possibility of "overpowering" a light weight bolt, where the force
applied causes the bolt to bend
when launched/in flight, throwing off the accuracy.
twinkle October 22nd, 2001, 10:15 AM

I think it is interesting that you want to build such a heavy bow but I think that for normal use it will be to heavy , 250 lb is
already a very high powered crossbow .Also you can do two things ,one is making to xbow like a medieval xbow with a very
strong short
draw like your car leaf spring or with fibreglass/resin bow (prod ) which has a longer draw with less force but the result is the
same .It is just as with a normal gun you have a bullet and the charge and with a xbow you have the bolt and the draw force /
draw length , at a certain draw and draw length belongs a certain bolt length /weight .So you have a lot to experiments to do
I think that when you would like to built something so heavy you better could built a roman "catapult" like the Ballista or so
although that is not something you take with you so easy. If you like I do have some
information on trigger systems of xbows which I could sent .Also be carefull with these experiments the forces you use are
easely underestimate
Mick October 22nd, 2001, 10:29 AM

i wasn't trying to call you stupid or anything agent black,
i merely suggesting to everyone, that if they were to try something along the lines of this it would be an idea to benchtest it
first (its just that some people get 1+1=3...if you get what i mean)
crossbows don't have a lot of recoil, more so *snap* then anything.

When you fire them they make your arms fly forward, which you then counter by pulling back. there a good way to pull a few
muscles.
i used to have a 300lb bow, and i found even after firing it god knows how many times i still sometimes pulled my neck/
shoulder out from the snap when it fires
BoB- October 22nd, 2001, 11:25 AM

I am aware of Newtons' laws, which is why I mentioned how far they would go. You dont have to use physics to build a crossbow
bolt, pointy stick going fast = ouch!
twinkle October 22nd, 2001, 01:14 PM

I don't agree that with you Bob a pointy stick as a bolt Iam busy now for about 8 month trying all kind of things with bolts and
a self-made xbow and getting the right bolt for it is not so easy as you say okay all "sticks" fly but to get the best result is
another story .
Agent Blak October 22nd, 2001, 03:42 PM

I would greatly appreciate it if you coulfd send me those triger mechs. I didn't think that you were callin' me stupid... and I
know what you mean. for instance some will try to make a Slam-bang Shot gunusing 3/4" and an end cap. Than they wonder
why it destroyeditself on the first firing. after they anwser a few questions it comes about that they used CPVC or Cu pipe
instead of Galvized.
Can you send the info on those mechs to:
agent_blak@yahoo.com
------------------
"I Always Have A Spade Or Two Handy"
BoB- October 22nd, 2001, 04:25 PM

Twinkle,
If you bang a razor knife into the end of a peice of wooden dowel, forming an x shaped split, then you can fit quivers in and
secure them by wrapping the dowel in sinew (for looks), or duct tape.
I'll upload pics to the ForumFTP if you dont understand.
These bolts fall apart (literally) after a few shots, a more sturdy one could be formed from aluminum rod.
------------------
It lets you blame someone else.
EventHorizon October 22nd, 2001, 06:33 PM

Bob-
Are you refering to "feathers" or "fletches"?
Quiver is a term I associate with the device that holds the arrows.
Most any sporting good store sells fletches and fletching glue. Fletchtite comes to mind. They are essential to getting the bolt
or arrow to fly straight. Some simple math and a peice of paper wrapped around the bolt should be sufficient to align them at
120.
To give you an idea of what type bolt material you'll be looking at, a 60# pull compound bow can't use the cheap wooden
arrows. You just might be looking at solid aluminum shafts if you have a beefy crossbow.
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PGP ID 0x147CEF54
bangandow October 23rd, 2001, 02:44 AM

a while back at a gun show, there was a blowgun booth. the guy had a kit that you just hooked on and you powered your
blowgun with co2 powerlets(from the cheap walmart paintball guns). the bolts used were solid aluminum and (according to the
vendor) could take enough oomph from the co2 to go straight through a deer without any adverse effects to the bolt itself. id
say using wooden dowels is a definite no-no with a bow this powerful. solid metal bolts is the only thing i can see working...
[This message has been edited by bangandow (edited October 23, 2001).]
twinkle October 23rd, 2001, 04:49 AM

It was not meant as an insult Bob and i know how to make bolts you even can make a bolt more simple using wide tape to
make vanes (instead of fletching the bolt it is not as good as fletching but it can do the job ) ,
however if you make the bolt to light it will flutter and when the bolt is to heavy it will drop to fast when the fletches or vanes
are to big they will result in a brake when they are to small they don't work properly.
It makes great difference what type of point (arrowhead) you put on a bolt the flight pattern of a bolt with a broadhead is
different from a "bullet point " you can make a bolt of wood , aluminium or glassfibre and I think for such a heavy xbow as
500 lb even steel tubing could be used .I see that they are saying to use solid rod instead of tube but for the strength it does
not make much difference if you use tube or solid the bending strength is the same only it could help if you want more weight
for a bolt .
this was for the bolt but the same applies for the xbow itself what type of trigger mechanism you are going to use and how
long the draw is . There are a lot of variables you can "play" with .
BoB- October 23rd, 2001, 09:03 AM

Quiver is used in the south as a synonym for feathers, bad habit of mine.
Mick October 23rd, 2001, 01:33 PM

agent black: i never got as far as designing a trigger mech for it, all i used in the test phase to fire it was a piece of string tied
to the release on the whinch
and i never finished the bow due to lack of time
the trigger mech was something i could never figure out - one of the ideas i had was the trigger mech off a spear fishing
gun(obviously modded so it could take the extra strain)
twinkle October 23rd, 2001, 02:13 PM

agent black maybe this can help somewhat to , if you want drawings of trigger mechanism I can email them to you I did not
have the url addresses anymore .
http://crossbow.hunter.ru/making/bowstring.html
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/cn_arc_indx.htm
http://jim-diana-hart.home.att.net/cbsite.html
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/1486/string/
http://www.en.com/alchem/crossbow.html
http://crossbow.hunter.ru/making/lock.html
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/3433/crsindex.htm
http://198.144.2.125/Crossbows/crossbows.htm
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/yn_xbow/yn_xbow.htm
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/rept_xbow.htm
twinkle October 24th, 2001, 01:59 PM

this is the address of the National Crossbow men of America they have a nice gallery with a lot of pictures of target crossbows
they also sell plans of the Bailey's crossbow
(which is nice , scale 1:1 )
http://www.usarchery.org/naapub/crossbow/xbow.htm

15 days short of a year. Anyways I was working on a kind of a bow that can be carried like a handgun so it doesn't have the
cross leaf spring. Instead I am using 2 posts, one on either side to which 2 sling shot "power bands" have been attached. Rest
of the design is same as a conventional crossbow. For the arrows/bolts I am using chop sticks (the bamboo ones). The
chopsticks can carry impact sensitive 10-15 g AP or HMTD heads or the good old pointy end.
Fukineh December 8th, 2002, 09:37 PM

A friend of mine made a ballista with a truck leaf spring, and yes, It destroyed itself as we all anticipated. If your going to
make something that powerful that is hand held It will have to be extremely strong yet light enough to carry. Now, the
question is can anyway afford to make a crossbow out of magnesium :D ? My main point is that making something handheld
and that powerful is impracticable, but I would love to see it successfully done.
About the pistol "crossbow" that is relatively flat shaped, you should try making a magazine for it. Preferably one that is spring
loaded instead of gravity loaded so that you can still aim accurately.
[ December 08, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Fukineh ]
Harry December 10th, 2002, 10:54 AM

Check the USPTO database. I remember seeing such a device, with short quarrels.
Search keyword archery.
Harry
McGuyver December 12th, 2002, 10:17 PM

I love the idea of having a small crank mounted beneath the bow to aide in pulling it back. It's noisy and might take longer
but it seems really handy.
It would also have to release quickly.
I think the leaf spring thing was tried on junkyard wars but they were trying to lauch a football and it sucked. The other guys
were using a huge air cannon. :D
[ December 12, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]
Fukineh December 13th, 2002, 12:11 AM

Ya I've seen that episode. Pneumatic cannons kick ass and are quite reliable, but If you could get a giant ballista to work
consistently right that would be a shit load of fun also.

You should have seen this serie's grand final - they had to build a device to throw a car. One team made a trebuchet from
telegraph poles with a skip full of 4 tons of lead as a counter weight.
Oh man, you should have seen when they pulled the release pin :D
nbk2000 December 13th, 2002, 11:03 AM

Does that mean it worked and the car went flying?
Or did it fly apart, impaling silly wankers with shards of wood and metal scrap?
zaibatsu December 13th, 2002, 12:37 PM

Wankers, do they actually say that in the US? Anyway, while looking through my local library I found a very interesting book
pertaining to this topic. It's called "The Crossbow - medieval and modern military and sporting, its construction, history &
management". Problem is it's HUGE (~400 pages) and is a reprint of a 1903 book. I can't obviously scan it all in, as I have
neither the patience or time to do so, but I can scan some sections in if you'd like. Here's a brief contents:
Part 1 - The history of the crossbow, with notes comparative on the longbow shortbow and handgun
I - The military crossbow
II - The Sporting crossbow
III - The General dimensions of crossbows
IV - The bolts used with crossbows
V - The range of the medieval crossbow and how it compared to the longbow
VI - The shortbow and longbow in relation to the crossbow
VII - The Handgun in relation to the crossbow
VIII - Summary of the development of the mediaeval handgun
IX - A summary of the history of the crossbow
Part 2 - The construction and management of crossbows: Mediaeval

X - The primitive crossbow
XI - The 13th and 14th century crossbow
XII - How the bow of the primitive crossbow was attatched to the stock
XIII - How the crossbowman placed the bolt of his crossbow on the stock of his weapon
XIV - The various contrivances employed in the 13th and 14th century for bending the bows of crossbows
XV - Continued
XVI - Continued
XVII - Continued
XVIII - The 15th century military and sporting crossbow with a thick steel bow
XIX - The construction of a powerful crossbow such as those used for killing deer in the 15th century
XX - Construction continuted
XXI - Construction continued
XXII - Construction continued
XXIII - Construction continued
XXIV - Construction continued
XXV - Construction continued
XXVI - Construction continued
XXVII - Construction continued
XXVIII - Construction continued
XXIX - The Slurbow
XXX - The 16th century sporting crossbow
XXXI - The cranequin and how it was applied to bend the steel bow of a crossbow
XXXII - The 16th and early 17th century Spanish sporting crossbow
XXXIII - The 16th century stonebow
XXXIV - The 16th century stonebow with a thicker steel bow
XXXV - The 17th and 18th century sporting and target crossbow
XXXVI - The 16th century improved locks which were fitted to porting and target crossbows
Part 3 - The construction and management of crossbows

XXXVII - The bullet-shooting crossbow
XXXVIII - The bullet-shooting crossbow continued
XXXIX - The bullet-shooting crossbow continued
XL - The bullet-shooting crossbow continued
XLI - The large bolt-shooting continental target crossbow
XLII - The small bolt-shooting target crossbow as used currently in Belgium
XLIII - Belgian target crossbow continued
XLIV - Belgian target crossbow continued
XLV - Belgian target crossbow continued
XLVI - The bullet-shooting target crossbow with a barrel
XLVII - The popinjay
XLVIII - The crossbowmen of Dresden-Privilegirte Bogenschutzen Gesellschaft
XLIX - The chinese repeating crossbow
L - Arrow throwing
Part IV - A treatise on the siege engines used in ancient and mediaeval times for discharging great stones and arrows
LI - Introductory notes on the siege engines used in ancient and mediaeval times for discharging great stones and arrows
LII - The antiquity of ballistas and catapults
LIII - The effects of ancient siege engines in warfare
LIV - The distances to which ancient siege engines cast their projectiles
LV - The catapult, its construction and management
LVI - The catapult continued
LVII - The Ballista, its construction and management
LVIII - The trebuchet
LIX - The spring engine
As you can see, there's a lot of stuff! Bear in mind this was written around 100 years ago.

No, I think NBK is the first :)
Well, the car flew a bit, just in the wrong direction, and as an indirect result of a "fault". The problem was that the RSJ they had
used for the main arm, although it looked pretty substantial, wasn't strong enough. When the counter weight fell, the arm
bent and thus didn't raise the car, which meant that the energy from the weight wasn't transfered to the load. So the counter
weight just accumulated kinetic energy until it reached the end of it's travel, whereapon it dumped it all into the frame (think
4T falling from 30+ feet), which promptly disassembled itself - in a most spectacular fashion :) I ain't never seen telegraph
poles snap like that before :D
Oh, I loved those Devonshire farmers :) "Propah Jawb!"

Hey, I'm trying to expand my vocabulary to be international . :D
That hundred year old book is guaranteed to be much more detailed than any modern book on the subject of construction of
these ancient weapons.
"bullet throwing" crossbows? Hmmm...previously fired rifle bullet projected at high speed via crossbow...cops looking for
silenced rifle.... :)
I'd say scan anything that gives DETAILS on the construction of these weapons. All the history and background is obtainable
elsewhere.
If you do scan it, do a good job of it and don't bollock it up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ December 14, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

"Bollock(s) it up" NBK :)
smokey December 19th, 2002, 04:33 AM
ok guys ive got to say that imho i think that a 500lb cross bow would be a bitch to both use and maintain i think you would
end up with a ballista style weapon( good for seiges) build yourself a 175 lb weapon and use it to nail dogs to trees and
telegraph poles .ive got a 60lb pistol crosbow and its great for nailing rats to the rafters of my mates shed! hahaha
i woul have to agree with twinkle in tha the use of tube for bolts is the way to go in fact im gonna try it out with my gear and i
love the co2 powered blow gun thing would you classify it as a mini portair cannon?
[ December 19, 2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: smokey ]
SmallR2002 October 9th, 2003, 09:28 AM

tip: dont brace it only for back-recoil, brace for frount as well - crossbows dont fly straight! And hurt alot
dinkydexy October 11th, 2003, 10:35 PM

IMHO any talk about 500lb draw crossbows is just silly. The impracticalities of building and handling such a weapon have been
well covered and are all well-grounded observations. What would someone hope to gain by more than doubling the drawing
power of a readily available crossbow...extra range perhaps? Well, what use is that without accuracy, which it would be virtually
impossible to gain? Or maybe extra penetrating power or clout at normal ranges? If so, what's your intended target for
goodness sake?
I'm a reasonably experienced crossbowman. Take it from me, the weapon you're thinking of building is a loser's weapon. I'll
back myself with a humble 150lb crossbow and a handful of homemade wooden 14" quarrels against it any time...and
curiously enough the advantages I'd have would be the same as those enjoyed by the English Longbowmen who readily
proved their superiority over their Continental European crossbow handling opponents way back when; superior rate of fire and
increased mobility.
You fancy handling a crossbow? Cool. If you have half the pleasure that I have with mine then you'll be delighted...but just go
buy one!!
mr. wiggles October 22nd, 2003, 10:23 PM

I have never used large scale crossbows, but I would assume that with 500lbs, you will be dealing with less of a crossbow and
more of a "javelin launcher"*. I would recommend looking for books on medieval siege weapons a and they should have a fair
amount of info on javlin throwing machines.
The picture I have seen in some midieval weapons book had the the launcher mounted on a large quad-pod. Many things
may be differint from the midieval design, as you will be using metal and they made thiers largly out of wood.
*that isn't the historic name, I tryed to search for it but came up with nothing
Arbalest January 20th, 2004, 11:51 AM

There is nothing silly or inherently difficult about building a 500# crossbow. Such a weapon doesn't have to weigh a ton or be a
"javelin launcher", it will not rip off anybody's arm and it will not need metal arrow shafting. The pull of a bow tells little more
than the amount of force needed to pull the string back. Two men can both weigh 200# yet the strength or speed difference
between them can be huge. The same fact applies to crossbows.
Medieval crossbows typically had a draw weight ranging from 300 to 1200 pounds, and they were made mostly from wood, horn
and sinew, materials much weaker than modern spring steel / fiberglass etc. Some of the 500+ pound 'bows don't have any
metal in them apart from the trigger, and they are compact weapons weighing under 10 lbs. The reason they hold up is that
they have very short draw lengths, often only 6 - 8". Consequently they don't store any more energy than a modern, high-
end, long-draw crossbow. Which means the strain on the parts isn't particularly huge.
Why would anyone want to make a 500# crossbow if you can have a 200# crossbow that's just as powerful? Well, it's a hell of
a lot easier to make a simple, straight, spring steel bow with a short, really heavy pull than to build an equally effective
crossbow of half or third that weight. It would take well-designed, laminated reflex /recurve limbs or a compound system. Not
something that can be done from scrap metal with a grinder. Commercial, good quality crossbows cost from 400 to 800
dollars, a worthy motive in itself for building a home-made version.
With a 500# crossbow it might be wise to follow the example of medieval bowsmiths and use a simple, rolling nut trigger
mechanism, where the trigger is a long lever that's pulled with the whole hand instead of only an index finger. It takes some
oomph to release a sear holding back hundreds of pounds. Most of the heavier, modern crossbows are compound bows. A
200# compound puts only 100# or less onto the trigger mechanism thanks to the let-down. A 500# home-made 'bow puts five
times more.
By far the best string for a home-made crossbow can be made from the modern bowstring fibers that are sold in rolls in
archery shops. A single strand of FastFlight has a breaking strength of 55#, so a thirty-strand string will hold up for 1650
pounds! And FF is very light for it's strength, a prerequisite for an efficient bowstring. Ordinary Dacron is a cheaper, weaker
option.
Wood is still a very functional arrow material, and when used properly, will endure the forces generated by the heaviest
crossbows. Crossbow bolts are short, so their stiffness is very high compared to conventional arrows. A wooden shaft doesn't
have to thicken much to strengthen manyfold. The wood for serious heavy-crossbow ammo must be strong, not the weak
cedar and pine that commercial wood arrows are made of. Hickory is the best in this regard, ash, maple or oak are good,
readily available alternatives. The grain of the shafts must be absolutely straight; a shaft with stepped or wavy grain will crack
dangerously when shot from any bow. The heaviest crossbow I've built - 180# - shoots 3/8" X 18" hickory bolts beautifully. A
half-inch + diameter shaft might be a better choice for a 500-pounder.
Dave the Rave January 23rd, 2004, 07:20 PM

Yes, Arbalest is rigth. I am an archer too, and have an xbow with 500 lbs, but its comercialy made, and it is not huge or
heavy. Its design can be duplicate by anyone with some skils on wood, and an smal workshop at hand, I think, in about 10
hours on nice work.
It isnt made of strange materials, only of wood and fiberglass. Its cordage is made of dacrom, (40 strings) and its bolts
are made of AL tubing and epoxi with exactly half inch diameter.
When it shoots, there is no higher recoill than an convensional 200 lbs crossbow, and its bolts are driven easily throug an 3
inch plywood.
About those triggers:
Trigger one (http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/vwp?.dir=/crossbow-

stonebows&.src=gr&.dnm=Image2.gif&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/lst%3f%26.dir=/
crossbow-stonebows%26.src=gr%26.view=t)
Trigger two (http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/vwp?.dir=/crossbow-

stonebows&.src=gr&.dnm=Image1.gif&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/lst%3f%26.dir=/
Simple trigger (http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/vwp?.dir=/crossbow-

stonebows&.src=gr&.dnm=trigger.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/crossbow/lst%3f%26.dir=/
Those 3 images are from an crosbow forum on Yahoo, nice images and files to anyone who wishes to browse the entire
archive.
- Later Ive realised that those links are useless to anyone who does not have an yahoo account. Sorry guys Ill keep the
llinks to those who wishes browse through the forum, but I will post only the pics ( as soon as I get it working ) -
lamar pye January 23rd, 2004, 08:22 PM

I've seen a crossbow made from a leaf spring that used bolts made from farm haying rake teeth. It was very powerful and the
accuracy was not bad but it seemed like a giant leap backwards in my opinion. A sound suppressed bolt action in .45 would be
much more fun and you wouldn't have to hunt for the bolts after they dissapear.
Dave the Rave January 24th, 2004, 12:35 PM

Ok, Surely shoot some rounds on an nice (and supressed) .45 is one of mine ideas of fun, and most sure that we dont have
to search the grass to find lost bolts after that, but on the other hand, an trustfull crossbow have some advantages:
1- Less recoill - A .45 haves an kick that is an annoing thing

2- No signature - Crosbows dont ligth in the dark
3- Better range - A supressed .45 haves a low range of "kill"
4- More penetration, even on bulletprof vests - A bolt with hunting tip or even with plain steel tip can penetrate easily on most
BP vests
Plus it is a weapon to snipe the prey, its shorter than an rifle, ligther, simplier and much more terrorizing. Imagine the fear of
the enemy when they see one body with a bolt protuting of a bloodly wound. Its like found someone killed with a knife, we
can manage the fear of being shoot with a bullet, but the pain of the tissue cut or pierced by an serrated hunting tip, made of
cold steel and almost impossible to remove by "normal" ways, and which cuts and tears the tissues, nerves and tendons at
every little attempt to movement, its beyond human tolerance.
Anyway, here are the triggers that I mencioned before.
- Dear Mods, why my pics dont appears ? Is the add attachment option working ? -
Rhadon January 24th, 2004, 01:16 PM

Attachments have to get approved before they show up. This can take between minutes and one day (or even a few days on
exceptional cases), depending on how often we come to have a look at the submitted attached files.
McCarthyite January 29th, 2004, 11:51 PM

I think Dover reprints that book under the title - "The Book of the Crossbow" by Ralph Payne-Gallwey.

You can see bits of "The Crossbow" <a href="http://www.rubbertreeplant.co.uk/catapult/crossbow.php">here</a>.
A "Javlin thrower" is called a ballista, by the way.
The Chinese repeating crossbow is quite interesting!

I am now in possession of that book, it's very good, but also very large. Problem is, no scanner. Anyone (respected UK
member) that wants to have a huge task on their hands can have it mailed to them, but only serious people - it's a serious
task.

I would and could do it, but like you say, it is a huge job.
Do you have an older version or a newer version? OCR software tends to get stuck on a lot of the olde english and the odd
turns of phrase.
I borrowed a copy printed in the 1950's, but couldn't scan it as the owner wouldn't let me break the spine, let alone cut it up! I
tried the trick of taking and scanning photos, but it just didn't work.

I'm not sure what you mean by old/new version, it's a straight reprint, so the language/phrases are the same as the original.
It's significantly newer that the 1950s, like mid 1990s. If I sent it out, I really would prefer it not be damaged.
dinkydexy January 31st, 2004, 10:55 PM

"The pull of a bow tells little more than the amount of force needed to pull the string back. "
lol.
I think you'll find that there's a direct corellation between this force and the amount of force stored as potential energy when
the the string is cocked, and then subsequently released and imparted to the bolt...which is to say they are all exactly the
same. Bigger draw weights mean more energy stored and transferred to the bolt, usually exhibited as a faster initail velocity
and thus greater range and/or clout.

dinkydex,
There are limits to how fast that energy gets fired out though. Hence the need for changing the material the arms are made
of, and the mass of the arrow. A light arrow will not get as much energy from the bow as one that is just right, and one that is
too heavy will have a limited range.
Research by the Royal Armouries in Leeds shows that, over the course of centuries, the range of crossbows only increased
slightly, despite massive advances in the materials and techniques used to make them. The power went up, and bolts got
heavier and heavier, and the total energy increased, but the "muzzle velocity" of the crossbows stayed the same! The energy
went up a long way, but there was a limit to how fast the bow would throw the bolt. Even the big seige crossbows, which fired
inch-thick bolts and cut through armour, still only threw the bolt at the same kind of speed. This is why armour persisted.
The big advance on the speed was actually down to gunpowder. Suddenly, there was a weapon that, whilst not very accurate
(yet loud and good at intimidation), could throw a ball at ten times the speed of a bow. This meant that armour had to adapt.
Modern crossbows with glassfibre prongs are still beset by the same issues, hence the "Velocipeed" types bows that use
leverage and pulleys to make them easier to cock and pull the bowstring faster.
Another issue is that the power stored in the bow has to go somewhere, and if it cannot, the bow, made well or not, may
break. I have been close to a top-of-the-range new crossbow which some pillock fired without a bolt (in the fucking shop!)
which snapped the string and destroyed itself. That energy has to go into the bolt, and too light a bolt means much energy is
wasted.
So, no, the energy in the bow has little to do with the speed of the bolt.
Edit: Ziabatzu, I suspect I wouldn't have the time then. I think that scanning a 400 page book without being able to use a
sheetfeeder would takes weeks! Heck, even *with* a sheet feeder... To do it without cutting out the pages would take forever!
Arbalest February 2nd, 2004, 06:20 AM

[i]
I think you'll find that there's a direct corellation between this force and the amount of force stored as potential energy when
the the string is cocked, and then subsequently released and imparted to the bolt...which is to say they are all exactly the
same. Bigger draw weights mean more energy stored and transferred to the bolt, usually exhibited as a faster initail velocity
and thus greater range and/or clout. [/B]
lol.
The pull of a bow is only a small part of the equation determining the energy stored in a bow. Draw length (the distance the
string travels), has a huge effect, as well as the shape and length of the limbs, the initial tension in the bow before the draw,
the mass of the limbs, mass placement etc. etc. Simply changing the string of a bow can increase or decrease the speed of an
arrow dozens of FPS.
I suggest you check the basic literature ( "Archery - the technical side" by Hickman, Klopsteg and Nagler, or the more easily
accessible "Bow design and performance" by Tim Baker in "the Traditional Bowyer's Bible vol. I").
Or better yet, make some practical experiments. Take an inch thick, three foot long oak board, attach a string to it and start
hanging progressively heavier weights from the string. You'll need hundreds of pounds' pull to bend the "bow" two inches.
Next, shave the board down to 3 / 8" thickness. The "bow" will now have a measly pull of maybe 100 pounds at twelve inches
or so. It will, however, shoot a 500 grain bolt many times farther, with much more velocity and KE than it's awesome multi-
hundred pound predecessor.
Modern crossbows with a 150 - 200 lbs. pull shoot no faster than compound bows with a 70 - 80 lbs. pull ( the world's fastest
commercial compound shoots 350 FPS at 70 lbs. The world's most powerful commercial crossbows manage about 330 FPS with
two- three times the weight and only slightly heavier bolts). If you compare bows with different limb configurations, the
difference is even greater. Medieval crossbows, with their short draw lengths, heavy limbs and strings, and the friction between
the bolt and the stock and the string and the stock, need 1200 lbs. to equal the cast of a 50 lbs. flight bow.
There is no direct correlation between the pull and the energy storage, let alone bolt velocity. The correlation only exists
between bows that are excactly identical apart form the pull.
dinkydexy February 3rd, 2004, 03:06 PM

"A light arrow will not get as much energy from the bow as one that is just right"
Hello? I'm sorry, but this is just plain wrong. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that a light arrow will not be able to
overcome air resistance as well as a heavier arrow would, in exactly the same way as a ping pong ball will not cut through the
air as well as a golf ball. Both receive the same amount of energy, but the lighter object has less inertia and is thus more
readily slowed down.
"So, no, the energy in the bow has little to do with the speed of the bolt."
Sorry again, but if all other factors remain constant then greater energy will result in greater speed.
"The pull of a bow is only a small part of the equation determining the energy stored in a bow. Draw length (the distance the
string travels), has a huge effect, as well as the shape and length of the limbs, the initial tension in the bow before the draw,
the mass of the limbs, mass placement etc. etc. "
Sorry for the third time, but the enegy stored in a bow, when it is cocked, is determined by its draw weight. All the other factors
you list, amongst others, affect the rate at which that energy is transferred to the arrow when the weapon is fired. Two totally
separate issues.
"There is no direct correlation between the pull and the energy storage, let alone bolt velocity. The correlation only exists
between bows that are excactly identical apart form the pull.
Well this is just nonsensical. Whether you can get your head around the concept or not, the energy stored in a cocked bow is
determined by its draw weight and vice versa, whereas bolt velocity is determined by a number of other factors. As for your
acknowledgment that there is a correlation only in bows '...that are exactly identical', well excuse me but it should go without
saying that if you start altering other things then OBVIOUSLY you will alter the whole equation!! How much sense would it make
for respond to the statement 'a dog is a 4 legged animal' with words to the effect of 'actually it has 5 if you include the tail'???
If what you're saying is correct, then kindly explain why it is that every bow available for purchase anywhere in the world has its
draw weight listed as its primary specification...indeed, as often as not, its ONLY specification.
ps.I think my point is proved; any talk about building a 500lb+ bow is silly...just go out and buy one.
Arbalest February 4th, 2004, 06:10 AM

Dinky Dexy: I am lousy at expressing my thoughts about physics here, since A) English is a foreign language to me, and B) I
have no physics education of any kind. I have, however, built, shot and tested appr. 50 bows of various types, including
longbows, sinew-backed bows, recurves and crossbows, in the past 12 years. Additionally, I have owned and tested with a
chronograph and a tape measure two commercial compound bows and three commercial crossbows.
I am the reigning flight shooting champion at our local Bowyer's Guild. I have changed ideas about how bows and arrows work
with the most highly acclaimed modern bow experts, including men like Tim Baker and Dan Perry. I honestly think I know what
I'm talking about when it comes to bows.
Do you know what a force-draw curve is? It is a line drawn on a graph, with draw length indicated on the horizontal plane and
draw weight on the vertical, based on the pull of a bow at various draw lengths. Simply put, the area under the line is the
energy stored by the bow. Not only draw weight and length, but also many other factors I mentioned affect the size of this
area. This is thoroughly tested and proved common knowledge you can read from any serious book on bows and arrows. I
hope some Forum member with a physics background expresses this idea to you using the correct scientific jargon.
The force-draw curve is the single most important indicator of arrow V and E. Why does a 50 lbs. compound bow shoot a 500
grain arrow about 30 FPS faster than a 50 lbs. longbow? Why does crossbows have to be two or three times heavier than hand
held bows to achieve the same V and E? The FD curve is the answer to these questions. At identical draw weight and length, a
compound stores much more energy than a straight limbed bow, as shown by it's highly curved FD curve compared to the
longbow's almost straight FD curve. A crossbow, with it's short draw, puts much less area under it's FD curve than long - draw
hand held bows at similar poundage.
The energy stored in a bow is only partly the result of draw weight. Since there are many, many factors affecting how much of
the bow's potential energy is transferred to the arrow, in the end draw weight often really tells nothing about a bow's
performance.
None of the hundreds of bow ads I've seen over the years have the draw weight listed as the primary specification. Yeah sure,
some of those really sketchy SE Asian Barnett copy ads...
Every quality bow model is produced in various draw weights, which are typically shown in small print at the bottom of an ad.
"Bow speed" is very often used as a primary attraction. Maybe the fact that you use advertisements as your source for
dependable proof tells something of your depth of knowledge in this field?
Flight shooting is an excellent way to test various theories about bow and arrow design. I could bore you with dozens of
instances where a light bow has out shot a very similar heavy bow. With different types of bows, even similar weight bows have
strikingly different cast. Long-draw bows typically shoot arrows much farther than same-weight short-draw bows (to a point).
The amount of evidence contradicting your claims is so massive it's hard to know where to begin.
Tests have shown (see the literature in my earlier post) that a heavy arrow is more efficient, ie. uses a larger percentage of a
bow's potential energy, than a light arrow, but the effect is only slight. The heavy arrow's better KE and ballistic coefficient is
the main reason why appropriately heavy arrows fly farther than lighter arrows. Medieval crossbows, with all the energy-transfer
problems I posted earlier, don't shoot light arrows faster than any simple hand held bow, but can spit out incredibly heavy
bolts with just as much speed.
kEFIR February 4th, 2004, 10:24 AM

I have recently been given the book "the croosbow" by R. Payne-Galloway and are planning to scan the part about the
construction of a typical crossbow. Will be done sometime during the weekend.
dinkydexy February 4th, 2004, 10:19 PM

"I am lousy at expressing my thoughts about physics here, since A) English is a foreign language to me, and B) I have no
physics education of any kind."
You're either out of your depth or you're both misunderstanding other people's posts and not expressing yourself properly.; in
either case it's ridiculous for you to continue repeating the same point again and again, when it is simply WRONG. You can try
to impress the world with boasts about your knowledge, achievements, etc till the cows come home...you can make silly
patronising remarks to others who you've taken a dislike to till you're blue in the face...you can point to as much pseudo-
scientific and technical data as you wish...but the fact remains that what you are saying about the storage of energy is just
plain incorrect.
Get your head around this, if you can; energy storage and energy release are two completely seperate matters. A sack of coal
contains a certain amount of energy which can be released in countless different ways, such as simply burning it or grinding it
to a powder to create a flash...but it is folly to think that once it has been ground it suddenly has acquired more energy
because it will burn much more rapidly!! A set of springs of different lengths, thicknesses and made from different materials
but all possessing the same elastic limit will all store the same amount of potential energy when stretched...but, again, it
would be folly to think that the springs with a fast contraction property had somehow acquired more energy than the others
when expanded!! A tank of water posseses potential energy which could be released by making a hole in it...and the rate of
release of this energy could be increased by enlarging the hole...but this would not mean that enlarging the hole had given
the tank of water more energy!! You could fill two cars with an equal amount of fuel, thus giving them both the same amount
of energy...but different models of car will release that energy differently; if you seriously believe that when you put 10 litres
of petrol in a Ferrari Testarossa you are giving it more enegy than if you were to put it in a Ford Fiesta then quite frankly I
despair!!!
And the amount of energy stored in a cocked bow, which is merely a spring, is not affected one iota by such factors as the
material from which the bow is made, the size, shape, drag coefficeient or mass of the arrow, whether the bow be compound,
long, recurve or whatever!! All of these are factors that affect the rate of release of the stored energy and subsequent flight of
the arrow...NOT the amount of energy actually stored.
ps. The area under the curve on a force-draw graph does NOT display the amount of energy stored in a bow.
Narkar February 6th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Dinkydexy, go buy a "Traditional Bowyer's Bible" vol.1 , read it through 3 times and then come back. Because at the moment
you know very little about general physics, and about nothing about designing bows.
Your comment about the ping-pong ball and the golf ball is ridicilous. They both have about the same air resistance (golf ball
a bit less because of the dips on its surface though). What is different is energy in them when you throw them from the same
crossbow. Fact is that crossbow limbs dont return home fast enough to give ping-pong ball even a small amount of the energy
they have. But since golf ball is much heavyer, at the same speed or even smaller velocity (because of its weight) it gets much
more energy out of the crossbow. The limbs come home a bit slower but the golf ball can take much more energy in it at the
same velocity as ping-pong ball.
Air resistance has almost nothing to do with it because it is connected to the surface area, which is almost identical.
Now try to get this into your head: Draw lenght makes a huge difference in how much energy can be stored in a bow. This is
just basic school physics. How to calculate how much energy you give to a rubber band when you strech it? It's only about the
lenght and the weight of the pull. NOT ONLY WEIGHT. What you are basically saying is that in a 500# at 2" bow is the same
amount of energy as in a 500# bow at 20" THIS IS NOT TRUE, come on think about it a bit.
The reason why in the catalogs the bow's pull is the most important factor is that bows are mostly custom built. Every person
has his own drawlenght. This varies usually from 24" to 32" You tell them the pull at what drawlenght and they build the bow
for you. IF it isnt custom built then its usually the kind of bow that can tolerate being drawn into lenghts of 32", but the draw-
weight is taken from the drawlenght of 28" (default)
Area under the force-draw graph curve directly displays the energy put into the bow. In case of a pulled rubber band the
formulae is F(power of deformation) = -k(stiffness) * delta l(change of lenght). With the bow the energy storage basics is
similar. Power of deformation there translates into the energy put into the bow. k(as stiffness) directly translates into the
stiffness of the bow and delta l(change of lenght) directly translates into the change of distance from bow to the string (draw
lenght minus bracing height)

I can't believe this...I really, really can't believe this. Am I the victim of some kind of wind-up here?
1. You say that the point I made about the ping pong ball/golf ball is ridiculous, then you state that they both have about the
same air resistance; SAME AIR RESISTANCE-THAT'S THE POINT!!!! But the reason a golf ball will overcome that air
resistance...which you have acknowledged will be the same on both balls...more much easily, and thus travel further through
the air is because it has more mass and therefore more inertia...and therefore will not be affected so much by external forces.
Such as air resistance!!! Not because it has received more energy!!!!!!! And the stuff you've said about crossbow limbs being
too slow to impart all their energy to a ping pong ball etc etc can only be described as gobbledegook.
2. You have completely, totally failed to understand what I have said, and am saying, about draw length. I have never, ever,
said that drawing a string back just 2" will provide it with the same amount of potential energy as if it were drawn back
further...and of course I would never, ever say that because it is just wrong!!!! You tell me to 'come on, think about it a
bit'...well I challenge you to point to a single thing I've said in any of my posts that would support your silly claim that I
believe that draw length does not affect energy storage. Go ahead.
3. You're partly right when you say that the reason manufacturers provide draw weight as the primary (and as often as not
ONLY) specification so that a prospective purchaser will know if he's capable of handling the weapon; but the main reason is
because draw weight is the most important factor regarding the amount of energy a bow can STORE. By the way, i note that
you disagree with Arbalast who reckons "...None of the hundreds of bow ads I've seen over the years have the draw weight
listed as the primary specification. " Hmmm!
4. "...at the moment you know very little about general physics, and about nothing about designing bows."
Like I told the other guy, making silly patronising remarks to others will not put you in the right here.
Narkar February 10th, 2004, 09:24 AM

But the reason a golf ball will overcome that air resistance...which you have acknowledged will be the same on both
balls...more much easily, and thus travel further through the air is because it has more mass and therefore more inertia...and
therefore will not be affected so much by external forces. Such as air resistance!!! Not because it has received more
energy!!!!!!!
And what exaclty do you think interia is other than the kinetic energy pushing it forward? Same thing! If you shoot the golf ball
out of the same bow lets say 50 m/s it will get more energy out of the bow than a ping-pong ball shot out of the same bow
which moves much faster because of its lighter mass. That because the air resistance doesn't grow in linear shape but sq. That
is why there is certain limit to how fast can the limbs return home on a bow, because of that the golf ball can take more
energy out of the bow(thus its more energy efficent when shot out) even when it moves 50 m/s. SO IT DOES RECEIVE MORE
ENERGY FROM THE BOW THAN A PING-PONG BALL!!!
And the stuff you've said about crossbow limbs being too slow to impart all their energy to a ping pong ball etc etc can only be
described as gobbledegook.
what the...???
2. You have completely, totally failed to understand what I have said, and am saying, about draw length. I have never, ever,
said that drawing a string back just 2" will provide it with the same amount of potential energy as if it were drawn back
further...and of course I would never, ever say that because it is just wrong!!!! You tell me to 'come on, think about it a
bit'...well I challenge you to point to a single thing I've said in any of my posts that would support your silly claim that I
believe that draw length does not affect energy storage. Go ahead
Dont try to tell me it wasn't you who claimed that the area under the force-draw curve doesn't show how much energy is stored
in the bow
Force-draw curve is the drawweight/drawlenght graph that shows how does the drawweight change in relation to the drawlenght.
Or maybe are you trying to imply that there is a third variable too beside weight and lenght of the pull that determines the
energy stored in the bow?
3. You're partly right when you say that the reason manufacturers provide draw weight as the primary (and as often as not
ONLY) specification so that a prospective purchaser will know if he's capable of handling the weapon; but the main reason is
because draw weight is the most important factor regarding the amount of energy a bow can STORE. By the way, i note that
you disagree with Arbalast who reckons "...None of the hundreds of bow ads I've seen over the years have the draw weight
listed as the primary specification. " Hmmm!
No i dont disagree with him. Traditional and primitive bows are mostly custom made (primitive almost always custom made). I
believe he knows much about designing bows, even you could learn it if you had read the bowyers bible vol 1
And ofcourse the draw-weight is the most important thing to look when you are buying the bow but you cant buy it based on
ONLY the draw-weight. Besides i thought this discussion was about design of the bow and the energy it stores, not how to buy
one.
4. "...at the moment you know very little about general physics, and about nothing about designing bows."
Like I told the other guy, making silly patronising remarks to others will not put you in the right here.
No that's not patronising remark, we are all here to learn and you should learn too, im just stating what i think about your
current level on bow design.
I thought about it that if you currently think that force-draw graph doesn't display the energy stored in the bow and you think
that a ping-pong ball would recieve the same amount of energy from the bow as a golf ball then you obviously don't know as
much about bow design and it's energy storage. This is the place to learn :p

Narkar,
The point isnt the air resistance, its the bolts capacity of store energy. If you shoot an .22 pellet with a 12ga cartridge it will
go less far as an solid 12ga slug shot from the same cartridge. It happens because of the size and density of the ammo which
stores more energy. The ammount of this energy is the same, the velocity of acceleration is the same, but the way of this
energy is stored and discharged is that counts.
About the bows, the velocity of return of the limbs only afects the acceleration ratio of the bolt, not the energy stored in it,
again, when you give an ammount of energy to an object like an rocket or to an cannon, the inicial velocity of it isnt the
same, but the energy is.
The draw / weigth show ecxactly the ammount of energy used to stretch the limbs at one given weigth throug one given
distance, so, it shows the energy stored on the bow. When you have a bow with 200lbs, it needs the wegth of 200lbs to be
cocked and gives the bolt teh energy of 200lbs. At composite or recurved bows, the draw/weigth remains the same, what
changes is the way the energy is distributed to cock the limbs.
When its said that at identical draw weight and length, a compound stores much more energy than a straight limbed bow, as
shown by it's highly curved FD curve compared to the longbow's almost straight FD curve its because the energy is distributed
throug the several parts of the bow, and if you make one single and straight bow, down to the pieces of one compound bow,
you will get one longbow bigger and heavier to achieve teh same draw/weigth
So, Arbalest and JC are completely rigth at all theirs statements, and you may learn something from them.
By the way, the fact that some of you read a book several times or make several bows dont give the rigth to flame the
others. Please, when quoting a book, write the formulae and equations to give us some solid points.
We dont need someone who shows us how ignorants we are, but rather than that, we need someone to show us how much we
can learn.

This thread has degenerated into a pointless quarrel...there's a pun in there if you look for it...and I, for one intend to take
no further part in it. I don't doubt for a second that some people will take that as some kind of surrender or backtracking or
admission that I've been proved wrong etc etc etc, and that's fine by me- the facts will remain as I've stated them regardless
of what any amount of ignorant people say or think.
Here's my final remark.
1. "...what exaclty do you think interia is other than the kinetic energy pushing it forward? Same thing!
This is incorrect. The inertia that a body possesses is affected hugely by its mass; it is not determined solely by its kinetic
energy. Go study.
2. " If you shoot the golf ball out of the same bow lets say 50 m/s it will get more energy out of the bow than a ping-pong ball
shot out of the same bow which moves much faster because of its lighter mass. "
"SO IT DOES RECEIVE MORE ENERGY FROM THE BOW THAN A PING-PONG BALL!!!"
This is incorrect. According to you, if you were to take a golf ball and a ping pong ball, place them in a vacuum, and then
project them forward from an identical device the golf ball would travel either faster or further (or both) than the ping pong
ball....because it was capable of receiving more energy. If you seriously believe this, then you seriously need to study. The
fact is that they would travel in an identical manner. The only reason this does not happen in air is because of the resistance
of that air; and in this instance the golf ball, being much more massive and therefore having much more inertia, will not be
affected to the same degree and will thus travel further.
3. "Dont try to tell me it wasn't you who claimed that the area under the force-draw curve doesn't show how much energy is
stored in the bow."
The statement that I made is correct, and for you to cite it as an example of something that I've said which would support
your silly assertion that I think that draw length does not affect stored energy is just totally bizarre.
PS. This is not the first time in history that an Englishman has been mocked for his 'ignorance' on the subject of archery. But
as the history books show only too well, he who laughs last laughs loudest!

If you shoot an .22 pellet with a 12ga cartridge it will go less far as an solid 12ga slug shot from the same cartridge. It
happens because of the size and density of the ammo which stores more energy. The ammount of this energy is the same,
the velocity of acceleration is the same, but the way of this energy is stored and discharged is that counts.
Hmm, weird, i always thought that an object's kinetic energy is only about the weight and the speed of the object. Please
explain me how the .22 pellet and a 12ga slug, moving at the same speed can have the same energy? :confused:
About the bows, the velocity of return of the limbs only afects the acceleration ratio of the bolt, not the energy stored in it,
again, when you give an ammount of energy to an object like an rocket or to an cannon, the inicial velocity of it isnt the
same, but the energy is.
From your talk i get the impression that the kinetic energy isnt the velocity times the weight, please explain.
The draw / weigth show ecxactly the ammount of energy used to stretch the limbs at one given weigth throug one given
distance, so, it shows the energy stored on the bow. When you have a bow with 200lbs, it needs the wegth of 200lbs to be
cocked and gives the bolt teh energy of 200lbs. At composite or recurved bows, the draw/weigth remains the same, what
changes is the way the energy is distributed to cock the limbs.
When its said that at identical draw weight and length, a compound stores much more energy than a straight limbed bow, as
shown by it's highly curved FD curve compared to the longbow's almost straight FD curve its because the energy is distributed
throug the several parts of the bow, and if you make one single and straight bow, down to the pieces of one compound bow,
you will get one longbow bigger and heavier to achieve teh same draw/weigth
I know that, it wasn't me who said that FD curve doesn't show the energy!
So, Arbalest and JC are completely rigth at all theirs statements, and you may learn something from them.
Read again who said what because i have never disagreed with Arbalest or JC :mad:
By the way, the fact that some of you read a book several times or make several bows dont give the rigth to flame the
others. Please, when quoting a book, write the formulae and equations to give us some solid points.
We dont need someone who shows us how ignorants we are, but rather than that, we need someone to show us how much we
can learn.
I was just explaining to dinkydexy that i wasn't making patronising remarks! What do you want me to repeat that again? I
WASN'T MAKING PATRONISING REMARKS, to you too then, happy now? :mad:
Also i wasn't quoting the book, i was reffering to it, because it is a good book, person can learn much more from bow design
and performance from there
EDIT:
1. "...what exaclty do you think interia is other than the kinetic energy pushing it forward? Same thing!
This is incorrect. The inertia that a body possesses is affected hugely by its mass; it is not determined solely by its kinetic
energy. Go study.
and you're saying that the interia is affected by the mass, but kinetic energy isn't?
"SO IT DOES RECEIVE MORE ENERGY FROM THE BOW THAN A PING-PONG BALL!!!"
This is incorrect. According to you, if you were to take a golf ball and a ping pong ball, place them in a vacuum, and then
project them forward from an identical device the golf ball would travel either faster or further (or both) than the ping pong
ball....because it was capable of receiving more energy. If you seriously believe this, then you seriously need to study. The
fact is that they would travel in an identical manner. The only reason this does not happen in air is because of the resistance
of that air; and in this instance the golf ball, being much more massive and therefore having much more inertia, will not be
affected to the same degree and will thus travel further.
I never mentioned the vaccuum, ofcourse the two balls behave the same in vaccuum when shot out of the bow. That because
the limbs dont have any air-resistance in vaccuum, that would slow them down (air resistance isn't linear, its in sq, so it slows
the limbs considerably when approaching higher speeds)
Fact is that in the air the bow can't impart the same energy to the ping-pong ball as it can to the golf ball. That's because
there is a certain limit on how fast the limbs move home. No bow can move fast enought to give all the energy to the lighter
arrow that it would give to heavyer arrow. That energy stays in the bow, it is felt as the recoil and vibration.
Ok, lets try a different approach to the same thing:

If a lighter arrow is shot with more recoil and vibration (which indicates that there was still energy remaining in the bow after
the arrow flew, right?) than with the heavyer arrow(and if you ever shot a bow you would know that) , then where else does that
energy of recoil come from than the energy of the bow that wasn't given to the light arrow as completely as it is given to the
heavy arrow. (this might not make much sense if you just read it but think about it)
In a conclusion: The vibration and recoil is that same energy that you stored in the bow, but because lighter arrows cant
absorb it as well from a bow as heavyer arrows can, it is left in the bow, and you feel it as the recoil. Thus the heavyer arrows
are more energy-efficent.
Prove that thought wrong, i challenge you.
3. "Dont try to tell me it wasn't you who claimed that the area under the force-draw curve doesn't show how much energy is
stored in the bow."
The statement that I made is correct, and for you to cite it as an example of something that I've said which would support
your silly assertion that I think that draw length does not affect stored energy is just totally bizarre.
Don't try to evade my question or change the subject. Force-draw curve is determined by drawweight and -lenght, which you
say doesn't represent the energy stored, BUT, now you say that drawweight and -lenght does affect the energy stored. So why
do you think that drawweight and -lenght put in a graph doesnt show the energy stored anymore?
PS. This is not the first time in history that an Englishman has been mocked for his 'ignorance' on the subject of archery. But
as the history books show only too well, he who laughs last laughs loudest!
Just because you are from England doesn't mean you know more about bows than others.

Narkar, I must apologize myself to you, my topic wasnt only to you, but Ive write your name on it because the 1st reply are
to your last post.
lets go, when I said that the acceleration was the same I was telling that the inertial energy imparted to those two shots was
the same, not that the velocity was the same. My point was exactly that those two shots cant have the same energy stored,
although the initial energy was the same, just because : object's kinetic energy is only about the weight and the speed of the
object.
The initial velocity of a rocket isnt the same as the initial velocity of an cannon round, even if the propelent charge was the
same. So, the initial velocity of an arrow insnt the same as the initial velocity of an bolt, even if the bow or crossbow have the
same draw/weigth.
From now on, The post was not about yours assertives, so, again I hope you apologize myself... I know and understand that
you agreed about the FD, and that you know that JCs and Arbalests points are rigth and I find rigth that you wasnt making
patronising remarks to anyone.
By the way, I may be too rude when ask you to quote the book, but I feel the urge to know, at writers words, how he find
those informations. sorry again.
From now on, white flag to all of you and let get our focus back to the purpose of the topic, an trigger capable to handling an
draw of 500lbs or bigger.

By the way, I may be too rude when ask you to quote the book, but I feel the urge to know, at writers words, how he find
those informations. sorry again.
Dont worry about it:

Bow's design and performance, by Tim Baker
"Left: To measure a bow's stored energy draw the bow using a spring scale, noting its draw weight at various lengths of draw. A
typical 50 lb. longbow will weigh: 10" = 8 lb; 15" = 20 lb; 20" = 30 lb; 25" = 41 lb; 28" = 50 lb. Label the bottom and side of
the graph as shown. Make a dot where
the 8 lb line and the 10" line cross. Make a dot where the 20 lb line and the 15" line cross, and so on. When finished, connect
the dots. The resulting line is called the force-draw curve. Area under the line represents energy stored.
f. Right: F-d curves for a 30 pound and a 60 pound bow. Squares under a curve represent energy stored.
Draw Weight
Everything else being equal, higher draw weight stores more energy.
These force-draw curves show the energy stored in typical bows made from straight staves. One having a draw weight of 30 lb
at 28", the other 60 lb at 28".
The number of squares below a curve represents total energy stored.
This stored energy is the ONLY means available for propelling the arrow."
"Draw Length
Everything else being equal, longer draw lengths store more energy.
A 59" maple bow, made from a straight, unaltered stave, shooting a 500 grain arrow, was tillered to draw 45 pounds at 22",
shooting 128 fps. This bow pulled 14 pounds at 10" of draw, and after being unstrung had taken a 1/2" set.
It was retillered to draw 45 pounds at 24", shooting 133 fps. Weight at 10" dropped to 11.5 pounds and set rose to 3/4".
Retillering continued to 45 pounds at 26", shooting 137 fps. Ten-inch draw weight fell to 10 pounds, with 1" set.
Each re-tillered version was equally hard to draw to length, but stored increasing amounts of energy. Note how early draw
weight fell as set increased. As will be seen in this chapter, set would have remained even lower if limbs had been wider,
longer, or made of a more elastic material. Early-draw weight would then remain high, storing more energy, raising arrow
speed even more."
Then he talks about various other stuff like limb-cross view, brace height, reflex and recurves, et cetera
After that it continues like this:
"All of the factors outlined so far affecting arrow speed- draw weight, draw length, string height, and bow profile -determine the
amount of energy stored in a bow's limbs. But at release, as this energy begins to flow to the arrow, the following obstructions
come into play.
Limb Mass
Medium length, straight-stave, 50 lb bows weigh about 23 oz. For bows of this length, weight, and mass, a difference of one
ounce in limb mass, on average, affects arrow speed by about one foot per second. For mid-weight bows a difference in one
pound of draw weight also equals about one ips of arrow speed. Lowering limb mass allows a lighter draw-weight bow to equal
the cast of a heavier draw-weight bow.
Heavier woods are generally stronger and more elastic, therefore, less wood is needed to do the same amount of work. Lighter
woods are generally weaker and less elastic, requiring more wood to do equal work. But, mass ends up about equal for same-
weight bows made of light or heavy woods..."
et cetera,
one part is about the energy efficency of heavy arrows:
"Much of the energy stored in long and heavy limbs remains in the limbs after ,release, becoming hand shock, string twang,
and limb vibration. This is why slower moving, very heavy arrows leave the bow quietly. Heavy arrows make bows more energy
efficient because more of the bow's energy has time to leave with them.
This is why flight bows are golf club-like: short, low mass, fast-reacting limbs. Flight arrows, arrows light enough not to impede
these fast limbs, can be shot much faster than normal weight arrows. The same flight arrow shot from an English war bow of
equal weight would be considerably slower."
Tell me if you want me to scan more text from the book
Narkar February 12th, 2004, 03:55 AM

cant edit,
http://www.hot.ee/marti184/sear.jpg
It is a bit like gun trigger mechanism and is also used in some commercial crossbows, but the disk (black in the drawing) is
oval and off-centre to lesssen the pressure on the trigger(red part).
The mechanism will cock itself when you draw the string back. I think you would need some short lenght of rails over the
system to prevent the string from jumping above the bolt,
EDIT: I made a pretty big mistake, that design on my drawing wouldn't be able to withstand 500#
You would need to make trigger more like on medieval crossbows, the lenght above the spring would need to be shorter from
the pivot point, and the trigger part should be very long and designed to be released by the whole hand, not just the trigger
finger (just like medieval ones).

Narkar,
Now were talking ! With your copy of the books terms, I can understand some of your assertives, and also clarify some dark
spots at my knowledge.
About your trigger, I think that it can hold 500lbs, as it will rely on the release system to held the pressure. One wholehand
lever trigger can be more reliable and comfortable choice, but I think that it can be turned on an "single finger" to compact the
size of the weapon and to make the action of discharge more smooth.
Maybe an lever to hold the circle and another lever to sear the 1st one...
What do you think ?

Glad to see the arguement has subsided!
The scanned text from the book was very useful, thank you to Narkar.
The wasted energy that makes the string go "twang" is what you use a heavier bolt for.
Ok, so, on with the design. What was the obvious mistake in the picture? I didn't see one. However, you would be well advised
to use a better angle on the face of your release, as a vertical face needs very little force in order to tilt past vertical, and if
that lets the bowstring ride over the cam, you might lose our arm with a bow as powerful as we are discussing here.
I would tilt it back at least 5 degrees. Also, I would cut further into your pivot/axle, as this will reduce the force felt by your
trigger sear. Obviously, you want to be using high yield steel for this part, but even so, don't go too far. Also, if you have a
long lever like that, it might upset your shot as it turns, making the bow jump further than otherwise.
I would go for a more circular one, and a two-stage sear and hammer system. That spindly sear/trigger you drew looks like it
would bend long before it overcame the friction on the end of it, and the trigger would be very heavy, as the leverage goes the
wrong way.

Yes, thats my point. The roller block is one of the best designs to the xbow, and with one sear and one trigger the
counterforce will rest against the pin, till the sear is moved by the trigger.
I think that the sear/trigger of the bolt action rifles is whats bether explains what Im talking about.
Anyway, Ill draw an skech to post here.
MMIV September 18th, 2004, 11:57 PM

why would you bother with such large pull weight? it would be useless in a defense situation such as you need winch to cock it
and the size of it would make it less concealable, also dangerous to the user. it would better to stick with minimum 150LB-
200LB. :)
tinkerman September 29th, 2004, 04:44 PM

i made a rather rough version of a cross bow that would have a very high pull, the only problem is that i cannot make a
efficient cylinder (like hydraulics but i was planing on pnuematics). use the leaf springs but design some type of lever system
to be pulled back in the middle and it will tighten. pull the cable back and then pressure up cylinder. more pressuer means
more power. need sturdy bolts or they will snap and go haywire.
i made another using fiberglass rods*4 loads of power and i encased the rods to prevent "an accident"
when testing make several versions auntill ur sure it is good enough for what u want.
for a string i used a medium aircraft cable. i only went to close to 200 lbs. crossbows are not supposed to be long range. 500
lbs would be more like a ballista

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > EtronX for impro weapons?
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View Full Version : EtronX for impro weapons?
zaibatsu October 23rd, 2001, 07:23 PM

Someone a while back suggested a battery of tubes with either rockets or bullets (can't remember which) being electrically ignited, so that they would have a fairly high
amount of shots in a short time (ala Metal Storm). However, the usual problems would be with the priming systems.
So, how about buying some EtronX primers and using them? The remington 700 that works with EtronX uses a 9v battery, so it shouldn't need a massive battery pack to get it
to work. Also, this would make it easier to make small firearms, as all you would need would be a contact for the cartridge. It would do away with the need for semi-
complicated firing mechs, although it would only realy work easily with a single shot rifle/pistol I guess. Anyway, what are your thoughts on these things?
Some info: http://www.remington.com/ammo/PAGES/centerfire/etronx.htm
http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700etronx.htm
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nbk2000 October 24th, 2001, 12:58 AM

Why not e-mail remington and ask them where you can buy the primers for reloading?
And I'll bet you that they don't sell primers for reloading so that you have to buy factory loaded ammo at exorberant prices from them for that very reason.
Also, I believe that the voltage is stepped up to create a spark, not just 9V straight.
------------------
zaibatsu October 24th, 2001, 03:06 PM

Quoted from the Gun Mart magazine that I first saw this in:
"... the only difference is the primer, so the empty case can be reloaded in the conventional manner, or with etronX primers from Remington."
So, I guess you can buy them specifically for reloading, although this was written in a magazine, not straight from the horses mouth.
------------------
AR-15 Man October 24th, 2001, 07:24 PM

What real advantage does this have over conventional firearms other than reduced lock time when the firing pin is being released. Only in high precesion, match rifles would
you really notice any difference from a system like this. I would say it might cut down on some weight though as this is why it is being marketed as a hunting rifle. As for a
semi gun I don't see any advantage at all.
zaibatsu October 24th, 2001, 08:50 PM

I don't understand, are you commenting on the EtronX system in conventional firearms? If so, then that isn't what I'm talking about, I apologise if my original post confused
you.
What I am talking about is how we could make a much easier firing system using EtronX than if we had to impro one. We could then make weapons smaller (easier to conceal)
and have the possibility of making the multi-barrel type weapon I said before.
------------------
AR-15 Man October 25th, 2001, 12:27 AM

Oh hell yes it would make improvising a lot easier. That would take one of the hardest parts out of improvising a gun. Really your imagination, wallet, and resources are your
limit. It would make guns easier to set up for traps, more concealable because you the firing mechanism wouldn't be that big at all.
nbk2000 October 25th, 2001, 01:59 AM

It'd only make it easier if it's ignited by 9 volts. But I'm fairly certain that the battery is amped up to create a much higher voltage, the spark from that being what actually sets
off the primers.
So, if that's the case, you need to create an electronic circuit to fire them. Big pain.
And what's with the oddball calibers? When they start making them in 7.62 or 30-06, then I'll notice them. And $2,000?! Holy shit!
------------------
A-BOMB October 25th, 2001, 11:10 AM

Actual, NBK2000 22-250 is a good caliber I had one once, but traded it in for a .22 magnem browning with rosewood stock. And why did I trade it in may you ask, it because
the shells are to fucking expensive $12 (USD) for a box of twenty and not even a brand name! But it is the ground hog gun from hell it has speed up with the .220 swift! It has
a speed of 3500+ fps.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

The .220 Swift is one of my favorite calibers, although barrel burnout is bad. You can reload the Swift to 4300fps IIRC.
As for cost of ammo, I can reload 50rnds of .308 (match grade) for about $12, not including the brass; I use Lapua and Norma.
And the Etronx, total gimmic IMO. If I'm going to spend 2K on a rifle, it won't be a factory model, it would be a used match rifle and getting it rebarreled if need be. And nice
wide selection of calibers offered, .220 Swift, 22-250, and .243. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
HMTD Factory October 26th, 2001, 03:21 AM

Ordinary primers respond to electricity if you zap it really hard, electronically.
Etronx primers are made to be used with mild current/voltage (higher voltage may arc) produced by their circuit, the electron flow through the priming mix instead of around
the primer cup, heats up the priming mix, boom.
As far as I know, no Etronx primers are sold alone in the market.(I bet both the rifle and the primer are patented so those who desire an Etronx will have to buy/use a
Remington)
SawedOff8gaugeman November 5th, 2001, 03:46 PM

"You can reload the Swift to 4300fps IIRC."
That's nothing compared to a project I heard about: IIRC it went like this: a few of .308 cartridges were loaded with very light bullets. They were of course very high-pressured
"fuck CIP etc..."-loads. Bullet speed was measured at a few meters from the muzzle. About 1200 meters/second (=3937fps http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
biggrin.gif according to my Texas Instruments P.O.S.) I'm unable to give any details, because I didn't do that myself. Yes, I still have some thought in me http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
No vittu. Vittu saatana. Helvettiks siin tuijotat?
EventHorizon November 5th, 2001, 04:06 PM

How is 4300fps nothing compared to 3937fps?
4300 fps is nothing compared to some experimental conventional loads. Around 7000fps is about the fastest a smokeless powder cartridge can acheive. .17 Remingtons are
about 4400fps I think, but thats only a 30 grain bullet I beleive. They have sabot sleeves that you can load .224" bullets into .30 cal shells. Velocities as you described are
easily acheivable with those. My Dad handloads a hot 110 grain RN bullet into a .30-06. It leaves wad-cutter type holes in paper at 100yds. LOL
Now if you are talking about energy, well then, thats a different story. A 50grain bullet going 4300 fps from a 220 Swift and a 240 grain matchking going 3800 fps from a .30-
378, the Swift is just no comparison.
Last time I read an article about rail guns, they were firing a 6# projectile at over 10,000 fps. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/eek.gif
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited November 05, 2001).]
SawedOff8gaugeman November 6th, 2001, 02:37 PM

It was a .308 and the projectile was a full-sized (lighter than normal, of course... 3-4grams IIRC). I think that really IS something. Ok, it's not any Wonder of the World. In
some small-bore/lot of powder space calibers like the .220 that's not SO special i.e. they normally have high velocities.
------------------
Always have a spare head handy!
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited November 06, 2001).]

When firing model rocket engines using primers, the firing pins will wedge the primer in place in the nozzle causing an explosion.
Electronic primers would solve this problem since they are set off by electricity, if there detonation depends on current and not amps, then a firing system could be improvised
from a disposable camera flash circuit.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 11-16-2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Improvised Weapons > urban knife throwing
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View Full Version : urban knife throwing
frostfire April 18th, 2002, 01:13 PM

I know this is an often discussed topic, but I hope I'm not reinventing the wheel here. If I do so, please disregard this whole
thing
alright, before we start, just like on the internet; the text is for only informational purpose only...and don't get your mother's
kitchen knives, stay away from them as long as possible....for knives and visible veins are two related and tempting things.
Don't go looking for cheap knives in wal Mart or one dollar store, instead, go to salvation army/goodwill etc.....you'll be
amazed by some quality gourmet kitchen knives you might find for less than 50 cents each
I stayed for a while without internet access and while out of fun, I returned to some old activities learnt from the old days of
real boy/girlscout survival lesson; knife throwing.
Now I modify this skill a little bit. When it says survival, it depends on the location. I believe most of people here don't live in
the middle of nowhere by the jungle like Kazynski, so this survival means urban survival. Therefore I'm not talking about
buying commando knives, Gibben knives/axes, or the 3 for $100 precision throwing knives....I'm talking about....kitchen
knives, steak knives etc....laugh if you want, but most of you are living in urban area with laws prohibiting any combat knives
in the street.
Now, carrying your lunchbox with steak knives in it won't be something unlawful isn't it.
Choosing the knife: You probably can rationalize the shape of an "aerodynamics" object, so I'll leave the shape of the knives
to you. I didn't experiment with classic butcher knife, but that is almost as heavy as any tactical knives and I don;t think you'll
have a good reason for carrying it around. You don't want anything to light like paring knife, you'd later find out from practice
that the lighter the knife is, the closer its throwing distance.
Now, kitchen knives are not as heavy as those true throwing knife so you don't need to hold the knife with all you fingers.
Instead, hold it with your middle, index, and thumb only. Closer hold to the tip of the blade is for longer throwing distance. To
start you can hold it about at the middle of the blade like holding a pen.
The best way to get the feeling of turns is to throw it to the ground at first. Throw with the same knife at first. With different
twist of wrist, and movement of the whole upper torso, you should soon get a hold of sticking that knife in the ground. Now it's
time to set a target, trees could be a good idea, but missing too many times can create a frustating and spirit breaking
condition. Just use some...well in my case some old large wood or anything that's just wide and tall enough. Remember, your
goal is to stick that knife, accuracy and precision are second things.
Just like throwing to the ground, just try to throw naturally, bending your wrist and the whole body. Your knife will likely to stick
at low height at first.
When you got the feeling to stick the knife, an aim feeling and need for accuracy will come in natural.
Paint a human figure with your same height. Knives are not powerful projectile, especially common kitchen knives, so aim at
one point; neck. Throw, and throw, and throw....until you wake up the next day with a sore right/left/or both arms. When you
get a hang of one distance, walk back and try again, until you find a favorable maximum distance. In my experience, 10 feet
is the easiest, 94% success rate throwing distance. This is for those average thick plastic handle steak knives. Heavier knives
with wooden handle like the nice solingen are throwable from 10 to 13 feet.
Now try to walk normally and throw a knife in a sudden, get a good accuracy rate. Try walking/running backwards and throw
those knives. Basically try to imagine any real panicking situation on the street. Throw while screaming, throw under the rain, if
friends are available, let them scream, bang metal pans, crack glass bottles etc , and you try to throw those knives. Try to
throw in the dark with your familiar target, therefore you can know whether you're still using your eye-brain interaction to throw
the knife or a true feeling. In simple term: let it be your second nature. The most interesting thing I found is throwing in a
completely dark room using NVG ,it's a total awesome and different experience. The only problem is IR illuminator is visible if
being viewed head on and that thing hums. So make sure you know how stealth you can be before planning anything.
Finally, it's kinda sick but...get a feeling of the knives and the pain felt by your target....go figure that out with your own
fantasy.
This is my first time to make some guide based on experience, so I believe I'm missing a lot of things. Suggestions/
questions/scoffing/bullying are welcome
nbk2000 April 18th, 2002, 05:12 PM

Throwing knifes are a waste of money.
How many people are killed by knives that are thrown? You could count the number in the entire world per year on one hand.
Knives are for sticking, not throwing.
10fingers April 18th, 2002, 05:39 PM

Frostfire, I'm glad you're back because I really enjoy reading some of the things your mind comes up with.

I much prefer razor edged playing cards.
Little sheet steel, little coaxing with an angle grinder, stencils, metal primer. And they're ever so stylish...
mark April 19th, 2002, 12:04 AM

Those are the best! They sell them at china town for like 20 bucks. I think I might make one.
BoB- April 19th, 2002, 03:53 AM
Sure, you might not kill someone with a thrown knife, but its one hell of a detterent, I think a 6" spike sticking out of
someones face would certainly surprise him/her abit.
I would always "cheat" with my thrown weapons and attach tassles, or cardboard fins, this would make them stick point first
even if they were thrown in a burst of adrenaline.
Zero April 19th, 2002, 09:38 AM

What, the cards? If you're paying 20 bucks a pop for the things I'll make you some and sell them for half that.
Talk about profit. I get the metal for free, and the only other thing I have to pay for is the paint.
frostfire April 19th, 2002, 06:17 PM

yeah NBK, but guess we'll never know when we need one eh? esp. if you consider yourself the weak/vulnerable kind
Somehow I think throwing at face might not be totally effective, I don't think the common knife would be hard enough to
pierce the skull, hence leaving the target disfigured, going berserk, and ready for a vengeanceful revenge.....neck I believe is
one of the "safest" area to throw at
nice to know someone appreciate your thoughts 10fingers, thanks...

usualy what I got was "she needs to be excused for not making any sense"
Whitey April 19th, 2002, 08:02 PM

I think throwing knives is an interesting hobby but not a very practical technique. I have always been told that throwing a knive
is almost the same as giving it to your opponent. It is very hard to hit a moving target with a firearm and I would guess it is
even more difficult to do so with a knife.
However if you were going to throw a knife at an opponent I would go for the center mass (chest) since your chances of hitting
the target are much greater. You may not get the same lethal effect but "most" attackers lose their aggression once they
recieve a serious injury. This does not apply to those with serious psychological disorders or those under the influence of drugs
(crack, coke, pcp, alchol).
But like I said it seems like it would be an interesting hobby. Also I imagine if you practised enough you could become
proficient enough to use this technique in combat, but I doubt most people would be willing to devote the time and energy
necessary to develop that level of skill.
A-BOMB April 19th, 2002, 09:17 PM

Heres my response, did any one here see the scene in "StarShipTrooper" were there learning knife throwing.
Project IGI April 19th, 2002, 09:40 PM

No, and the point to your post would be?

Well arent we snappy?
Btw, does anyone know how I could make a throwing spike? I dont want it as a weapon, just something to toss at my fence.

I used to make spikes by sharpening the hell out of masonry nails (the big 7 inch ones that cost 50 cents a pop) and affixing
streamers to the back.
They were fun to throw around. I hear stories about people actually hunting with the things...

Your the man Zero! Thanks!
BoB- April 20th, 2002, 02:28 AM

Zero, did we see the same webpage? About turning those galvanised spikes into the throwing weapons? If this is the case man
please post the link, I've been looking for that page for at least a week.
I didnt mean to go OT.

Possibly. I got the link off the AGL forum back when it was still up. I long since forgot the URL...

Bert March 7th, 2004, 05:13 PM

does anyone know how I could make a throwing spike? I dont want it as a weapon, just something to toss at my fence.
If you want to practice actual knife throwing skills, as opposed to throwing spikes with the little drag tassles... Go get some
cheap ice picks. The kind with about 6" steel spikes in a wooden handle. They cost less than $2.00 each, and they throw better
than you would believe, very consistent and surprisingly well ballanced in my experience. And you can use your dartboard for
practice without chewing it up, though they WILL go through to the wall if you toss them too hard. Throw these from a blade
hold, of course.
You are unlikely to ever use a throwing knife for self defense, but it's very satisfying to be able to consistently do this.
THWICK!!! THWICK!!! THWICK!!! Makes you feel life James friggin' Bond, it does.
Hang-Man March 7th, 2004, 05:28 PM

Yes, it is amazingly satisfying. And it's really impressive ;). I found some one-piece stainless steel kitchen knives at zellers
for next to nothing. I made them doubble edged on my grinder :D. They work well, except I broke the tip off one. One
question, why is this in in the 'chemistry related' section?
MP5Guy March 8th, 2004, 12:35 AM

Don't Be Stupid...
MP
Cheese March 9th, 2004, 05:08 AM

Its a great way to bleed off stress isnt it?
Besides, even if you just get the tip to stab into your target and run like hell, itll give them a hell of a shock....
xyz March 10th, 2004, 05:48 AM

I agree with MP5Guy, throwing your knife is a dumb idea, you can put many times the energy behind the stab/slash if the
knife is in your hand at the time. If you must waste a good knife, simply stab them and let go of the knife so it stays in them.
Personally, I don't see the point of throwing away a perfectly good knife, when all you are doing is giving the person a fairly
shallow wound anyway.
If you want to carry a knife in an urban environment, having steak knives in a lunch box is another idea that's a few cakes
short of a picnic. "Oh, you're attacking me, hang on while I open up my lunch box to get my knives" Why not just have a shiv
(flat blade with an almost flat handle, only about 4mm thick at most) strapped to an ankle or a forearm. They are made with
a leather sheath that is designed for this purpose, and they are undetectable in a pat-down search due to their flatness.
Dave the Rave March 10th, 2004, 10:26 AM

Personaly I dont like the idea of give the enemy an knife. Better is to stab his kidney or his back and let the blade stay.
But frostfire has an point, sometimes throw an knife is the only way to disable the target, IF the knife reaches some soft spot,
like the throat.
Altrhough carrying an lunchbox with the knives can be an good idea, at least to justify the fact that you are carrying several
blades, it can be very hard to open and grab an knife, on an momment of stress. Better is the flat knife, on an pouch in
between the shoulders, at the back of the neck, where the B&W dont search.
I realy like knives, its quiet, quick, unespected and eye-on-eye weapons, but must be handled with proficiency, dexterity,
unless its more an harm than good. Of course it involves the hability of throw it with precision, when its needed.
By the way, Frostfire, "SHE needs to be excused" Are you an girl ?
Bigfoot March 10th, 2004, 04:31 PM

First off, when I throw a blade, it's for fun.
Found a book in the library titled Comabat Knife Throwing: A New Approach to Knife Throwing and Knife Fighting. by Ralph
Thorn.
Having read other throwing books, including the one by Blackie Collins (hey, he sells a knife actually warranteed for throwing!),
I can say that this one beats all. Author even discusses alibis for carrying several long knives. "Honest, Ociffer, I do a juggling
act for parties. Watch!"
Killer is, I got no scanner. Soon as I can get one, the book will be scanned for anyone who wants.
Skean Dhu March 10th, 2004, 05:38 PM

I make throwing spikes from 8.5-9" sections of coat hanger, they're good for practice I can get one to stick in a 13"x13" target
from 12-13ft. also I had some unfletched blowgun darts laying around, they're about 3" long and made from rectangular wire
fence. A good cheap target can be made from a section of cork, a couple sections of the newspaper or if you find ads folded to
the right size, and duct tape, which keeps the cork from falling apart when you pull your spikes from it. then trace the outline
of a playing card, and then a pokerchip or quarter on the inside of the card outline.
xyz March 11th, 2004, 05:16 AM
Dave, yeah, Frostfire is one of Roguesci's few female members, there are a few others who I can't think of right now.
Dave the Rave March 11th, 2004, 12:40 PM

Nice, an girl between us ! Frost, wellcome back !
I found some nice ceramic knives, to make japanese food, realy sharpen and hard.
It can pierce an penny with one hard blow of an hammer.
The problem is the size, those are huge, almost 30 centimeters !
I purchase one, and, with an grinder, cut off the handle and resized the blade, sharpened both sides, getting one double
edged weapon, then, with paracord I make a new handle and its done.
It cant be found by an pat-search, as its on the back of my neck, nor by any metal detector, as its made of nonelectric-
resistence material. It cant be thrown, as its not very well balanced, but its an very impressive hand-to-hand weapon, can
cut through leather and thin metal easily.
Neoknite March 15th, 2004, 10:47 PM

Although almost never needed being able to consistantly hit a target with a knife is a handy skill to have. Mostly it could be
used to impress your freinds but if you are not within stabbing distance what are you going to do. Say your at gun point or
something like that and all you have is a knife. Also I have found that knives that are blade heavy are eaiser to stick into a
target.
Impact March 16th, 2004, 02:11 AM

well my first post and i hope it's decent.
there is a point in a throwing knife in todays world. a throwing knife is more of a distraction weapon. throw it at the target to
give yourself a second or 2 of vital time to escape or to cause an opening to attack further. a stunned opponent is alot easier
to take down to the ground and thats the way everyone should start to escalate damage. throwing stars, caltrops, and spikes
can be used to also to distract opponents but they usually draw attention to themselves as they are not everyday seen items.
anything will work as long as it is thrown right and you practice with it. also, throwing knives are usually balanced in the middle.
as for "giving you enemy a weapon"...unless they catch it in the air, theyd have to reach down or divert their attention from
you and noone does that and wins a fight.
i was also thinking about the comment dave the rave said. those salad knives made from delrin would pass thru metal
detectors and can be shaped down into a nice concealable knife. too bad i, nor does almost anyone, have a use for such a
tool. then again...stateside, i can just march on down to a gun show and purchase Israeli made covert knives made of delrin
for 2 bucks each.
hope this was decent and please dont ban me
---------------------
Use your shift key!
Rhadon
berkut March 16th, 2004, 07:47 PM

Zero, did we see the same webpage? About turning those galvanised spikes into the throwing weapons? If this is the case man
please post the link, I've been looking for that page for at least a week.
I didnt mean to go OT.
Galanized nail can be turned into amore lethal and precise weapon than a throwin knife. just hammer the sharp edge and
shape it like the point of a spear then put a tassle in the other end. and make a slingshot as a drive. ahh its difficult to put
into words how to make it maybe I can i mail to you the plan for better visualization. Can I have your email address? . Oh you
might search for it in the web, the keyword is indian pana. Just try it.

I used to make spikes by sharpening the hell out of masonry nails (the big 7 inch ones that cost 50 cents a pop) and affixing
streamers to the back.
They were fun to throw around. I hear stories about people actually hunting with the things...

Helloo Im new to the forum and read your discussion about the galvanized nail as a throwing knife. Im sending you a file of a
plan for a homemade slingshot using the galvanized nail as a bullet or shall I say spear. this weapon is concealable. but I
need to go out of this forum coz i cant attached the powerpoint slide. Can you send me your e-mail address.
Hope you use it just for hunting not for any bad ideas.. you know what I mean. I once used this hunting rats in out home in
the province.
+++++++++++
The above, "signing", of a post, is NOT permitted. Remove or be removed. NBK
Dave the Rave March 17th, 2004, 12:09 PM

Impact, I believe that it was an good post, but please, dont beg ! If you think that your post can get you banned, just dont
post.
About the topic, an serious atacker cant be distracted by 5 to 7 inches of steel on his body, unless it hits some vital spot,
hence Frostfire always aim at the neck, nor by calltrops, unless its on the midle of the path, or thrown at his face. You cant
gain 2 secs of "vital time " and you, probably, will loose an good weapon that can be used to stab and cut some veins and
tissues...
Your idea about ceramic knives, when you say that you dont have an need for such a tool, I think that the correct idea is to
have an tool to such a use. Its better have an knife that cant be found than dont have any weapon at all... And by the way,
I will NEVER buy anything made by isralis !!!
Berkut, why the insistence on gettying members emails ? You can email anyone by clicking on his/her nick at the top of the
post. And no one wants to know that youre new at The Forus, as your subtitle is allway showing it.
Shoot an iron barbell with an sling ? How do you do it ? Its your idea or an common weapon at your Country ? Ive seen some
flechets being lauched from an rubberband powered cross bow, but never seen your idea before.
Impact March 17th, 2004, 03:36 PM

I hate to explain myself in this way but here it goes.
"an serious atacker cant be distracted by 5 to 7 inches of steel on his body, unless it hits some vital spot, hence Frostfire
always aim at the neck, nor by calltrops, unless its on the midle of the path, or thrown at his face. You cant gain 2 secs of
"vital time " and you, probably, will loose an good weapon that can be used to stab and cut some veins and tissues..."
Any attacker will flinch, move or be temporarily stunned whenever anything...much less a 5 to 7 inch knife is thrown at them.
And hitting the person is an added bonus. Just the fact that you can stop somebody can give you an openning. BTW, throwing
a knife into someone's neck??? isnt that a rather small target? Wouldnt you be better off trying for the body? A larger, more
accessible target should be taken advantage of, i.e. the body.
As for the nonmetallic knife...how many times do you go into a court room or an airport and need a weapon. The only place i
can even imagine needing one is a night club where they have metal detecting wands. Sorry you wont buy anything made from
Israel. They make quality stuff and are cheap. Albiet my tax dollars paid for their factories.
A simple piece of delrin or other non metallic material in rod form with a tip on the end can also be used as a jabbing weapon.
A slingshot that launches spikes? Why? What ever happen to a nice ball bearing flying super fast, aerodynamically and being
able to hit someone from a long distance and causing a massive amout of shock value. Why change what works? Are
crossbows illegal in Australia also?

Dave the Rave, tell me, if you were a serious attacker and got stabbed by a 1.5inch blade (not 6-7) in the forearm can you
seriously say you wouldn't be distracted? no, nobody can nomatter how 'hard' they think they are. say you have an arm of
radius 3inches, thats 6inches diameter, then a 1.5inch blade is going to get half the way to the bone. thats going to do some
serious muscle damage and severly hinder an arms operation, all this from a 1.5inch blade.
also, a quick note on slingshots. it takes alot of practice to be reasonably accurate at aiming, or maybe i'm just shit. they can
do some impressive damage and have good impact properties. the one i have atleast is quite capable of punching through
both sides of a beer can with an entry hole the width of the can and a small exit hole. this is a real 500ml steel can, not the
little ally ones the US guys have.
dave does however raise some good points - impact, don't ever say 'please don't ban me'. this is not a forum for whining
beggers.

Impact, I believe that it was an good post, but please, dont beg ! [...] your idea before.
It is common in my country, but it is illegal, used in gangwars.
I tried e-mailing through the nick, but it wont work okay i wont inssist for e-mail address, Again i will try to post my weapon
plan,some other time.
Impact, I didnt Say "change the slingshot" but my plan is an option for the slingshot. I also use slingshot and very competent
in using it, we use it in hitting birds, either in a wire or in a tree.
----------------------
Don't quote whole posts!
Rhadon

berkut,
Don't block quote like that, or you will get a telling off! You could have easily edited it down to the last two paras!
nbk2000 March 18th, 2004, 03:59 AM

People have been hit with shotgun slugs, buckshot, .44 magnum hollowpoints, 30-06, etc. at point-blank range, and still killed
their killer. Not to mention guys trailing their intestines after being eviscerated by artillery shrapnel, and other horrific injuries,
during war
Not every weapon works every time, and if shock weapons like firearms and artillery can't do it every time, then what's a
pissant little blade thrown by you going to do to someone intent on killing you? Not a whole hell of a lot really.
And an arm isn't an immediately lethal injury, and you've just provided them with a very effective bladed weapon for them to
use to sever your head from your body, while simultaneously disarming yourself...:rolleyes:
berkut March 18th, 2004, 05:02 AM

Indian pana is a lethal weapon, depends on where you hit the target.
The arrow cannot easily be dislodged from the wound because of the hook on the arrowhead. it needs surgery, thus avoiding
your quarry to use it against you.
You can easily reload it for the second shot, speed on using it can be improved through practice.Plus ,you just can throw away
the slingshot after using it.
what make it more lethal is it is like an ice pick, it can make your blood clot inside the wound and you can make the arrow
bigger than a 7 inch nail.

Kingspaz, NBK Said enough !
If youre matching an serious atacker with your neigbourhoods tough brat, then youre on troubles... An serious atacker is
someone who WILL kill you as soon as he catch you, and nothing will stop him. Ive seen people on drugs that can be
shooted several times, on the chest, by the B&W and even be able to take down one or two of the cops...
BTW, when my family was of the penitentiary service, I saw an inmate who was pierced seventie and two times with several
homemade blades and he can make his way to the hospital, alive, and hes still alive today ! His name is "marcinho VP" do
an google search and youll found his history.
Impact, dont "yawn" to your elders !!! Its an bad habit and can bring you troubles.
Think a bit, to throw an knife, you must face your enemy. After youve thrown your weapon, youre disarmed and must turn
your body to run away.
IF your enemy is away from you, the fact that youve thrown him your weapon dont distract him, but instead let him know
that youre helpless.
IF your enemy is next to you, you can, maybe, hit him with the knife or maybe miss him. Either hand you cant run, as he will
grab you and cant atack him, as youre without your blade. Enough.
Berkut, did you ever heard about The Grintch ? Is on your Country any legend about man-eating monsters ? Because youre
on the path of an such legend...
Your elder, JC already said you to not quote the entire post, just the relevant line, and your last post have not relation with the
line youve quoted. Anyway, I was quite enjoying your presence, but alas, what can I do ?
Impact March 18th, 2004, 01:42 PM

:yawn: Happy Dave? Considering you think that if i throw a knife at you, you wont be stunned or flinch. I guess you can bypass
100,000 years of evolution in survival reactions.
The simple fact is, when an object is comming towards you, such as a knife...elders like yourself, and i laugh at that thought,
will flinch just like everyone else. If i have to run after that i will. Better to run from a stuation I may not be able to win. And
always remember, I can run faster scared than you can mad.
I can not believe that people actually think they are tough. If someone shoots at me, I will duck. Its human nature. If you
throw something at someone, they will shield their body and flinch. Its HUMAN NATURE!!!
As for the shooting a person a dozen times and they still live, people are resillent creatures. Anything can be killed with a
.22lr. Teddy Rosevelt killed a bull elephant in africa with a 22lr. A man can fight as long as he has the capacity to.
And as for my "please don't ban me" quote, it was actually suppose to be a joke due to the fact that i read the rules, try to
live and die by the rules, and yet dont want to offend anyone! But its all good, ream the new guy.
------------------
If you don't want to insult other members, than don't do it! I don't like the tone you have here. Since this already is your
second warning, you're banned for three weeks from now on.
Rhadon

I think a weapon like a slingshot is very effective, if you are able to stay calm and actually use it like you would in practise. I
have seen a .44 steel ball-bearing put through quite a bit of stuff - you can do more damage to a light target frame made of
wood than you will with a .44 Magnum, as the slower moving ball won't break through, but will transmit more shock to the
wood. However, I would never confuse this with the power of a .44! I wouldn't like to get hit with an accurate shot to the face or
kneecap, but odds are it would just sting a lot as it hit my stomach or whatever, mere inches off target. Then I reserve the
right to shove the rubber band down your throat.
As for firing a barbed hook or arrow, you should probably make a speargun, as that leaves you far less likely to screw up
under pressure, and will generally be more repeatable and accurate. Certainly you are likely to hit yourself in the forearm or
hand under duress with a normal slingshot and an arrow.
You could, of course, find a poison arrow frog or something, and tip the arrow in that. (One idiot I know claimed to be a super
knife fighter, and told people he had all his knives tipped with powdered Chloroform!!) There are all sorts of issues with that,
though, such as knock-down times, legal repercussions, mental state of the target, etc. These are discussed elsewhere on the
boards.
As for throwing knives, yes, I would say it was a useful skill for showing off, but don't throw your knife if you can't afford to lose
it! Also, don't practise throwing into dirt, as it will take the edge off it.
Best reason for throwing a knife? So when you miss, the guy smirks, picks it up, and you shoot him dead, in self-defence.

[Berkut, did you ever heard about The Grintch ? Is on your Country any legend about man-eating monsters ? Because youre
on the path of an such legend...
Dave the Rave, Im just trying to contribute to this thread, man, what im saying is true, indian pana is a proven weapon. Ahh
mebbe, you never heard about my country. I cant blame you, but I can't rectify that impression until I posted my weapon
plan. So here it is, I converted it into jpeg file (4 files) then zip it. Just unzip it into jpeg format.

No Berkut, Im not misinformed, in fact Ive triped to your Country some times. Please understand, I can realize that youre
trying to contribute, but again, youre quoting without the need for it.
Whats the point of quote my text if what you say after that dont is direct connected with the above quote ?
Thats my point ! People can be very pissed if your text become full of quotations.
You must limit your quotes to the minimum necessary, and must stick to only quote something direct related to the subject
youll write about.
Corona March 19th, 2004, 02:18 PM

Might be interested in taking a look here:
http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/bbknife.html
I find this way of knife throwing effective. Will I ever use it for self-defense? Hell no. For that, there are ball bearings...
http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/bball.html
Far, FAR more effective than knives. The larger ones will split a skull open without any effort. At least thats how they feel in
your hand. You can get them as scrap.

[No Berkut, Im not misinformed, in fact Ive triped to your Country some times. Please understand, I can realize that youre
trying to contribute, but again, youre quoting without the need for it.}
Okay! I admit at first I ignore to read the rules but now im enlightened, Thanks fro JC and you for the reminder, although
yours is quite annoying. About you been to my place, in what place you been here. Ahh! mebbe to some beaches. what did
you find out, what about man-eating monster, There some stories about it but i dont think thats true. just like in other
counties they have urban legends. Mebbe you knew somebody from here, then why not asked them if what im saying about
the pana is true. If that person denies, then they may have a reason or they ignorant on what is happening to some parts of
this country. Just like me, I didnt knew what is happening to other place, because this place is composed of many islands as
you may know it already.

[No Berkut, Im not misinformed, in fact Ive triped to your Country some times. Please understand, I can realize that youre
trying to contribute, but again, youre quoting without the need for it.}
Dave, Hmm im getting emotional, pardon me, hope you and the others is not mad. PEACE!! Ahh have you seen the plans I
posted, hope it work for you. Oh-uh I forgot to tell you, heat the tip of the nail red-hot before hammering it, to make it more
malleable (hope my word is right) and you may substitute the tying wire with the tab from soda can. Inform me if it work. I'll
try to draw the plan for homemade speargun using rubber and spine from umbrella andsome scrap wood. one of my friend
use it for hunting mudfish instead of airgun.

I reviewed the files I posted and found out that the first slide, supposedly the drawing of the arrow is just like the other slide
with the slingshot drawing. Again Im attaching the 1st slide. hope this will work now
Dave the Rave March 22nd, 2004, 12:44 PM

Berkut, Im not mad about anything, I am just trying to keep you intact. My insistence about you dont quote an whole post is
just to keep you alive.
Now I must add another information, you cant do 3 post in a row, on the same topic. Instead of it, you must EDIT your post,
by clicking on the "edit post" button, and you have 2 days before the edit option become unavaliable. Please, if you can, edit
all the information on one only post and delete the subsequent 2 posts.
If you whant to discuss anything, please use my email and we can talk at will.
BTW, the man eating moster is jus an figure of language, althroug I know of the "chupa-cabras", an urban legend also
commom at my Country, the Brazil.
berkut March 22nd, 2004, 07:02 PM
[QUOTE=Dave the Rave]Berkut, Im not mad about anything, I am just trying to keep you intact.
Now I must add another information, you cant do 3 post in a row.
:) DAVE, Thanks man. 3 post in a row, yah. You were right, I didnt care to edit my first post. But the third one is just a
correction for the plans, Anyway, im glad that the elders ( as you called them) are forgiving. Did you try the weapon?
My interest is the back to the slingshot. I think Ill buy the one I just saw in a sports house. Ill try the lead used in fishing nets
as bullet or plain glass marbles.
Cyclo_Knight March 23rd, 2004, 12:39 PM

Some advice Berkut: If you buy a wrist-rocket type slingshot make sure that you buy the heaviest grade bands for it, Also try
to buy the largest bearings you can find. The optimal size is about 1.5 cm diameter, or about the size of a paintball.
My slingshot will put that bearing through 2 magazines and sometimes a third if they're spaced right :D However ive found that
slightly smaller bearings will go through more magazines but will do much less damage to a 2x4.
In short: smaller bearings, better penetration...larger bearings, more power and blunt trauma damage. If you want to kill, go
with the larger ones, as a headshot would certainly fatally fracture the skull. :)
berkut March 23rd, 2004, 08:21 PM

[smaller bearings, better penetration...larger bearings, more power and blunt trauma damage. If you want to kill, go with the
larger ones]
Cyclo Knight, Kill?? Nahh. just want to have something if somebody want trouble. he he :D . Ill go for a bigger band. the one
like they use in hospitals, What a luck, just thinking of having the slingshot, a friend gave me a steel bearings he get it as a
scrap part of the steering wheel of honda civic. I think it is big enough. Ill post for updates. :D
Cyclo_Knight March 23rd, 2004, 10:27 PM

With a slight amount of simple modification, a wrist-rocket could be outfitted with two sets of bands on a single pouch,
All you need to do is add 2 more attachments for the bands; Some .25" solid steel rods should do the trick. Simply weld them
to the existing attachments about 1.5" from the end, stick it in a vice, and cold-bend the rods to be parallel and 1/2 " above
the lower ones
The trick though would be to find some thick, tough leather which was also flexible for the custom pouch. Although instead of
leather, I was thinking of 3 or 4 layers of kevlar quad-stiched together.
That would be tough as hell, and silicone beading on the outside would make holding the cocked bearing much easier on the
fingers.
You could probably get a good 50 pound pull, and a bad mother like that would strike fear in the hearts of the neighborhood
squirrels. I would guess you could be fairly accurate to 200 yards with a .6 in ball bearing.
I would only reccomend very heave shot be used with his however,as firing lighter shot may not provide enough resistance and
damage the slingshot.
Bigfoot March 24th, 2004, 05:03 PM

Having been tech advisor to a group making wrist rockets by hand from .25" steel rod, accurately cold bending it is TOUGH!
Better to heat the bend area first, until red, then bend while holding flame to steel, let cool, then weld. However, welding to the
aluminum common in commercial wrist rockets would be difficult. Perhaps a better solution (for someone possessing welding
gear) would be to custom-build the weapon from scratch.
I seem to remember someone selling dual-band wrist rockets via mailorder, maybe US Cav, but it's been several years.I know
I've seen it, though.
Jacks Complete April 1st, 2004, 08:03 PM

Bigfoot,
why do you say it is hard? I built a perfectly nice Black Widow substitute from a bit of rebar when I was a kid, using a hammer,
a bending tube and a 3 ton vice. The power bands cost me all of 2-50 iirc! The wrist brace was a neat bit of wood that locked
on with a half twist, and offered a good bit of support on the twisted iron handle. I didn't heat treat anything, not even
knowing what it was at that age! A friend had a real black widow, and mine was just as good.
As for buying the most powerful bands and what size projectile to use, I must say the choice should be made with care, by the
person actually doing the shooting. I bought a set of the extra power Barnett bands, the black ones that are about 50% more
power than the standard extra power ones (it was at a trade show, I don't recall exact details) but I have found that I am far
less accurate than before, because when shooting a steel BB, I just don't have the grip strength for the smaller, faster balls.
Also, the power that is left over from a .38 or even a .44 ball really has to go somewhere, and it goes back into your wrist and
the top of your hand, which gets old really quick!
I have some quite massive recycled BBs which are between .65 and 1 inch, and they are ok, but, of course, they are a bit
heavy, and they are various masses, so they go a bit wild at beyond 15 yards. At 25 yards, I can hit a tin can with a good steel
.44 and normal bands, but with the rather random old olds and the heavy bands, I can't get anything like that accuracy, rather
hitting about 1/5 of the time at half the range.
I will do some tests tomorrow if I can get my chrono to work indoors, regarding the mass versus velocity thing for the black
bands I am using, and post them up.
Cyclo_Knight,
Made something like that with garden canes as a kid, like a giant crossbow. I can't see many people being able to get a good
grip and a good release off a double banded system, not least because two bands will contract at different rates and do odd
things to your trajectory. Perhaps in a crossbow design, but not hand-held...
As for the knife throwing thing, that page above (http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/thrower.html) is great! I saw a chakra in the
Leeds Royal Armoury, and have found that the blades off rip saws are quite a good cheap copy! Kind of like a giant shuriken.
Much better than the cheap stars you get from French tourist traps! I must get round to actually making a proper chakra,
though...
I have read about arrow throwing, but, again, not got round to trying it yet.
Does anyone have any experiance with any other throwing weapon?
Corona April 2nd, 2004, 08:38 AM

I've learnt a lot of martial arts from my teachers here, but its all been "empty hands". They won't let me train with weapons,
probably because they think I might kill myself or something... Whatever little weapons tricks I've learnt, are self taught.
Anyway, in my opinion the most practical and effective throwing weapon is a "spike". Just a cheap, shiny, pretty, wrought-iron
rod about 7, 8, or so inches long sharpened at both ends. God help the poor sap who catches one of these the wrong way,
LOL.
However, my favorite is the ball bearing. Practice throwing a few dozen times every other day with either hand. You really don't
need martial arts training to become an expert at this thing.
Plenty of people ask me, when I claim to know Karate, that "what are you going to do if attacked by 2 guys twice your size
carrying baseball bats?"
And I would have to say, "what makes you think I'll give them a chance to come near me?" LOL. Karate works best when it
isn't used.
And I don't think this chakra thing is worth the bother. Its an "exotic" weapon from the Indian Subcontinent. I live here too
(Indian subcontinent, Karachi, Pakistan) but I've never heard any tales of bravery or desperation associated with the chakram.
There's lots of better stuff around.
Jacks Complete April 2nd, 2004, 07:45 PM

Corona,
I collect various interesting weapons - I have swords, knives, a parang/gulock, caltrops, all sorts - which I make or buy from
about the place. A chakra would be a rather neat toy to play with. I am going to try the thing with the ball bearings as well. I
have tried knife throwing, forging steel to make my own stuff, and so on.
In other news, I completely forgot to do the thing with the chronograph today. I will need to weigh the ball bearings now I think
about it, for firing them through the catapult. I can then work out the KE fairly easily.
Corona April 3rd, 2004, 12:05 AM

Aha..you're a collector... Here's a page for you:
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/
In my opinion this is the most effective hand weapon to come out of the Subcontinent. The knife responsible for the most kills
during wartime.
As for the chakram, just don't depend on it in a street fight, LOL. As far as I know it was supposed to be used by the Sikh
people from the Punjab, to hold their turbans in place. Their "kirpan" (double bladed knife) is a much better known weapon.
One of the things that bothers me about a chakram is that, like a frisbee, you have to throw it back-hand. And back-handed
frisbee throws don't have the power or accuracy that a thrown knife or spike will have behind it.
Just a thought.
Jacks Complete April 12th, 2004, 08:49 AM

That's an interesting page - I was lucky enough to find a rather old khukuri in a Nottingham shop about 6 months ago, which I
very nearly "acquired". Turned out to be on sale for 15 so I just bought it! (It didn't look like it was for sale)
It is probably a repro, but I don't know. Certainly the blade is quite old, and the tools that come with it are fairly poor, but the
blade is good. The handle is too small for my hand, and shows no wear. The rings that are found on most khukuri handles
are, in my opinion, a nusance, as they bite into the hand and cause a blister very quickly.
They are very effective knives, however. I cut down a four inch thick pine tree the other day with mine, and it is certainly not
something you would want to get hit by!
Bigfoot April 12th, 2004, 11:04 AM

Jack's,
Perhaps the steel used was different--we weren't using rebar, but some stock from the local farm store. Vise Grips and
Channel-loks, because the one guy with a vise had a piece of crap suction model. Could have offered my own equipment, but
they wouldn't have learned anything.
Using a torch, propane or hotter, one can bend very easily, even 3/8" rod, tight radii, too.
Proper equipment helps a ton.

Corona April 16th, 2004, 06:17 AM
You bought a kukri for 15 pounds? That would be 1,545 Rupees!!! You were robbed...;-)
If the handle bites into your hand, I would improvise a cushioning grip using a bicycle inner tube. Thanks to "A Zaibatsu
Release" on how to make your own knives, I'm in half a mood to make my own kukri.. a knife I've always wanted but never
got.
nesler April 17th, 2004, 06:31 AM

Reading what Corona was saying about throwing a ball bearing made me think a bit...I've noticed that when I take the time
everyday to throw anything, whether it be playing a game of darts, chucking rocks, or just popping bits of garbage across the
room into the garbage overhand, it has a huge improvement on knife-throwing ability.
However...I do need to throw more with my right hand. Fucking worthless... :(
Corona April 26th, 2004, 05:50 AM

Excellent point Nesler.
The way martial arts is taught here, there is a mental aspect that is drilled from early on. They call it mind-body coordination,
and one very good way to get better at that is to encourage all us martial arts students to be as ambidextrous as possible.
For example spend ten minutes everyday trying to write with your left hand (in case you're right handed).
In China, young kids are taught to use *both hands* when using the abacus. And a larger number of them than normal, grow
up to become "lightning calculators" (a person who can do maths in his head, that would normally need a calculator).
THEN watch your performance improve. I think you will be amazed.
compound June 2nd, 2004, 08:38 AM

Why not make a ninja death star(i suppose you could do it with a throw knife). make a small hole on top of the blade add
some cyanide or anything else that would work. All it has to do is stick in and then bam. The blade wont kill them but the
cyanide would. If your not sure test it on a dog or cow, or anything big.

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PYRO500 June 17th, 2001, 05:17 AM

endotherm June 17th, 2001, 03:21 PM

SKS June 17th, 2001, 06:05 PM

BaDSeeD June 17th, 2001, 06:37 PM

PYRO500 June 18th, 2001, 12:51 AM

Minami_Sasake June 19th, 2001, 12:42 PM

~A Haiku, Minami Sasake

endotherm June 19th, 2001, 12:48 PM

Agent Blak June 20th, 2001, 12:35 AM

Ctrl_C July 3rd, 2001, 03:32 PM

Ezikiel July 4th, 2001, 01:50 AM

Ezikiel July 15th, 2001, 11:58 PM

madog August 29th, 2001, 12:26 PM

madog August 31st, 2001, 11:11 AM

bangandow September 2nd, 2001, 03:05 AM

Begste January 12th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Mardec January 13th, 2005, 04:45 PM

kbk January 14th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Jacks Complete January 17th, 2005, 08:05 PM

Silentnite January 17th, 2005, 09:52 PM

Bert January 18th, 2005, 12:55 AM

Silentnite January 18th, 2005, 08:59 PM

xyz January 19th, 2005, 02:25 AM

Anthony January 19th, 2005, 03:30 PM

SoulShadow January 23rd, 2005, 12:12 AM

nbk2000 January 23rd, 2005, 08:55 PM

Third_Rail January 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM

Jacks Complete February 1st, 2005, 08:46 PM

ossassin February 5th, 2005, 06:29 PM

charger February 6th, 2005, 12:52 AM

Silentnite February 6th, 2005, 01:10 AM

ossassin February 6th, 2005, 01:50 AM

Anthony February 6th, 2005, 04:21 PM

ossassin February 6th, 2005, 06:58 PM

Jacks Complete February 6th, 2005, 08:19 PM

Silentnite February 6th, 2005, 09:12 PM

festergrump February 7th, 2005, 01:25 AM

ossassin February 7th, 2005, 03:57 AM

festergrump February 7th, 2005, 05:09 AM

Silentnite February 7th, 2005, 01:45 PM

Feel free to correct any gross over-simplifications.

ossassin February 7th, 2005, 05:56 PM

Silentnite February 7th, 2005, 11:13 PM