ROYALCOMMISSIONINTOINSTITUTIONAL

RESPONSESTOCHILDSEXUALABUSE

PublicHearingCaseStudy29
(Day155)

Level17,GovernorMacquarieTower
FarrerPlace,Sydney

OnFriday,14August2015at10am

Before
TheChair:JusticePeterMcClellanAM
Commissioner:ProfessorHelenMilroy

CounselAssisting:MrAngusStewartSC

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1THECHAIR:Firstofall,weneedtocheck,MrStewart,is
2CommissionerMilroylinkedin?CommissionerMilroy,can
3youhearandseeus?
4
5COMMISSIONERMILROY:Icanhearyou,butIcan'tseeyou
6onthescreenatthemoment.ButIthinkthatwillbe
7adjusted.
8
9THECHAIR:Isthatsomethingattheotherendoratthis
10end?Wecanseeyounow.Canyouseeus?
11
12COMMISSIONERMILROY:Yes.
13
14MRSTEWART:YourHonour,asyourHonourisaware,the
15witnessthismorningisMrGeoffreyJackson.Thereisan
16appearancetobenotedonhisbehalf.
17
18MRABANNONSC:CouldIannouncemyappearanceonbehalf
19ofMrJackson.Bannon,yourHonour.
20
21THECHAIR:Yes,youhaveleave.
22
23MRBANNON:Thankyou,yourHonour.
24
25THECHAIR:MrJackson,youneedtobesworn.Doyouhave
26aBiblethere?
27
28MRJACKSON:Icertainlydo.
29
30<GEOFFREYWILLIAMJACKSON,sworn:[11.05am]
31
32<EXAMINATIONBYMRSTEWART:
33
34MRSTEWART:Q.MrJackson,willyoustateyourfull
35nameandyourworkaddress,please?
36A.Yes,mynameisGeoffreyWilliamJackson,andIwork
37at25ColumbiaHeights,butthemailingaddressis
38124ColumbiaHeights,Brooklyn,NewYork.
39
40Q.MrJackson,IunderstandyouwereborninQueensland,
41Australia,in1955;isthatright?
42A.Thatiscorrect.
43
44Q.AndyouwerebaptisedasaJehovah'sWitnessin
45Queenslandin1968?
46A.Thatiscorrect.
47

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1Q.Andyouleftschoolattheageof15andcommenced
2pioneeringworkfortheJehovah'sWitnessesinTasmania;is
3thatright?
4A.Thatiscorrect.
5
6Q.Thereafter,youfulfilledvariousrolesastranslator
7andthenbranchcommitteemember,firstinFijiandthenin
8Samoa?
9A.IfIcouldcorrectyou,MrStewart,please,firstof
10allinSamoaandtheninFiji.
11
12Q.Thankyou.AsIunderstandit,in2003,youwere
13transferredtothetranslationservicesinNewYork;is
14thatright?
15A.Yes,intheStateofNewYork,butintheeducational
16facilityofJehovah'sWitnessesupstateinPatterson.
17
18Q.InSeptember2005,youwereappointedasamemberof
19theGoverningBodyoftheJehovah'sWitnesses?
20A.Thatiscorrect.
21
22Q.AsIunderstandit,youhaveservedcontinuouslyin
23thatcapacitysincethen?
24A.Thatiscorrectaswell.
25
26Q.OntheGoverningBody,Iunderstandthatyouare
27amemberofboththewritingandtheteachingcommittees;
28isthatright?
29A.IfImaybeallowedtoexplain,eachGoverningBody
30memberhasahomecommitteewherehisofficeisbased.So
31inmycase,Iworkinthewritingdepartmentunderthe
32writingcommittee;butthen,also,Ihavetheroleof
33aconsultantwiththeteachingcommittee,aswellasthe
34personnelcommittee.ButIdoserveontheteachingand
35personnelcommittees.
36
37Q.AsIunderstandit,youserveonthewriting,teaching
38andpersonnelcommittees;isthatright?
39A.Thatiscorrect.
40
41Q.Couldyoujustbrieflyexplainwhatitmeanstobe
42aconsultantononeofthecommittees?
43A.Yes.Withregardtomyrole,eachmemberofthe
44GoverningBodyofcourse,therearesevenatthemoment
45eachbringssomethingtothetablewithregardto
46expertise.Myfieldistranslation,andasyourealiseand
47havementioned,ithasbeenforquitesometime.Butalso,

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1obviously,IwasappointedontheGoverningBodybecauseof
2myspiritualqualifications.Somyroleasaconsultant
3withtheteachingcommitteeandpersonnelcommittee
4involvesmeevaluatingrecommendationsthataremadetosee
5if,firstofall,theyarescripturallyaccurateand
6correct,and,secondly,whethertheyaretranslatable.
7
8Q.Sowouldthatbewithregardtoallbusinessand
9decisionsofthecommitteesonwhichyouserveyouwould
10fulfilthatfunctionyouhavejustdescribed?
11A.ThatisthefunctionthatIfulfil.
12
13Q.So,inotherwords,togiveguidanceandensurethat
14thedecisionsandworkofthosecommitteesarescripturally
15accurateandcorrect?
16A.Aswellastranslatable.
17
18Q.Andby"translatable",doyoumeantranslatableinto
19variouslanguagesoftheworld?
20A.Yes,justyouprobablyareawareofthefactthat
21Jehovah'sWitnessestranslatetheirmaterialintonearly
22900languagesIthinkit'ssomethinglike893translation
23teamsthatwehaveandourmagazine,TheWatchtower,is
24translatedintoapproximately250languages,soattimes
25thesecommitteesneedmyinputwithregardtohowthings
26willbetranslatedintootherlanguages.
27
28Q.AsIunderstandit,yourinputonthosecommitteesis
29notrestrictedtothequestionoftranslation;itwould
30coverallthebusinessofthosecommittees;isthatright?
31A.Itcoversallthebusinessintheaspectofme
32analysingthescripturalbasisfordecisions.
33
34Q.Couldyouexplain,MrJackson,thecommitteestructure
35andhowitrelatestotheGoverningBody,whichistosay,
36dothecommitteesreporttoandaretheyaccountabletothe
37GoverningBodyasawhole,orhowdoesitwork?
38A.Thankyou,MrStewart.Yes,theGoverningBody,as
39Imentioned,hassevenmembers.Asyouwouldrealise,with
408.2millionactivemembersofJehovah'sWitnesses,with
41approximately20millionassociatedwithus,thereisno
42waythatthesevenmembersoftheGoverningBodycanbeup
43todatewithallaspectsofeverypartofourwork.Sothe
44GoverningBodyisbrokenupintovariouscommittees.The
45committeesthereisameasureoftrust,obviously,
46becausethemenwhoareappointedonthosecommittees
47understandsomethingabouttheoperationofthosevarious

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1aspects.
2
3ButifImayalsomentionsomethingIthinkthe
4Commissionhasn'tnoticedisthattherearearollof30
5helpersandthesehelpersjoinusinnottheGoverningBody
6committee,butthevarioussubcommittees,andtheyhelpus
7bymakingrecommendationsandimplementingthepolicies.
8
9Q.Thankyou,MrJackson.Isitthecasethatthe
10helpersalsoattendtheGoverningBodymeetingsthatoccur
11weekly,butdon'tmakedecisionsthere?
12A.No,theydon'tnormallyattendtheonemeetingthe
13GoverningBodyhaseachWednesday,unless,ofcourse,we
14needsomespecialinputfromoneofthemorfromseveral,
15andthentheymaybeinvitedasneeded.Butyouare
16correctinsayingtheydonotvote.
17
18Q.Soisitrighttosaythatthecommitteesthenare
19accountabletotheGoverningBody?
20A.Thereisayes,ultimately,theGoverningBody
21overseestheworkofthecommittees,butthereisameasure
22oftrust,obviously,thatgoeson,mainlyifIcoulduse
23anexample,Iwouldbethelastpersononearthtoaskwith
24regardtoconstructiondetails,butthepublishing
25committeehandlesourconstructionworldwide,andsothose
26thathavemorefamiliaritywiththattypeofexpertise,we
27wouldtrustthemtogoaheadwithmostofthedecisions.
28
29Q.YouhavesaidthattheGoverningBodypresentlyhas
30sevenmembers.Howisitdeterminedhowmanymembersthere
31willbefromtimetotime?
32A.TherecanbeanynumberofmembersontheGoverning
33Body.Inthepastfewdecadesforexample,whenIwas
34appointedontheGoverningBody,therewere12ofus.
35Ibelievethenumberhasbeen18atonestage.Butthe
36qualificationsofamemberfortheGoverningBodyit
37involvessomeonewhoisconsideredananointedWitness,who
38hasworkedinscriptural,withascripturalbackground,
39eitherasamissionaryorafulltimeservantformany
40years,andisabletofulfiltheroleoftheGoverning
41Body,whichis,mayIstate,agroup,aspiritualgroupof
42menwhoaretheguardiansofourdoctrine,andasguardians
43ofthedoctrine,lookatthingsthatneedtobedecided
44basedonourdoctrines,whicharebasedontheconstitution
45oftheBible.
46
47Q.ItakeitiftheGoverningBodyistobeincreasedin

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1size,thatthatwillbeadecisionoftheGoverningBody
2itself?
3A.Thatiscorrect.Butobviously,wewouldget
4informationfromotherfields.
5
6Q.AndisitthecasethattheGoverningBodythen
7appointsnewmembersoftheGoverningBody?
8A.Thatiscorrect.
9
10Q.Doessomeonehaveadesignatedrole,suchas
11coordinatororchairpersonorpresident?
12A.YoumeanoftheGoverningBody?
13
14Q.Yes.
15A.Ordoyoumeanthesubcommittees?
16
17Q.No,ImeanoftheGoverningBody?
18A.Yes.Werotateeachyear.Thereisachairmanofthe
19GoverningBody,butthechairman'sroleismerelytochair
20themeetings.
21
22Q.Sothereisnoonewhohasapermanentroleof
23coordinationordesignationsuchaspresidentorwhathave
24you?
25A.Thatiscorrect.Onlythecommittees,underthe
26directionoftheGoverningBody,haveacoordinatorfor
27eachcommittee.
28
29Q.DealingwithdecisionsoftheGoverningBodyitself,
30howaredecisionsmade,bywhichImeanaretheymadeonly
31byconsensusorbymajorityoristheresomeothersystem
32youadopt?
33A.Soifapolicyoraquestioncomesupwithregardto
34doctrine,orsomethingthatinvolvesabiblicalstand,we
35willallowsomeonetocomeinandpresenttousallthe
36factsconcerningthatobviouslytheseveninvolvedcannot
37befamiliarwitheveryaspectthatweneedtoconsider.So
38oncetheproposalhasbeengiventotheGoverningBody,
39it'sanagendapoint.Aheadoftime,eachGoverningBody
40member,withprayer,bymeansofprayerandreadingthe
41Bible,thentriestoseehowtheBiblewouldaffectany
42particulardecision.Sothen,inourdiscussion,
43generally,frommyexperience,whichhasonlyjustbeenthe
44last10years,inmostcasesit'sunanimous.
45
46Q.Ifit'snot,thenitwouldbecarriedbymajority;is
47thatright?

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1A.Thatisthecasebut,asIsaid,it'sararething,
2becauseifsomeoneperhapstheirconscienceisnotclear
3orfeelcomfortablewithacertaindecision,thenmore
4oftenthannot,wewouldrelyuponGod'sspiritbyholding
5uponmakingafinaldecisionuntilmoreresearchisdone,
6andthenwewouldmeetagain.
7
8Q.BywhatmechanismwouldyouunderstandGod'sspiritto
9directyourdecisions?
10A.Well,whatImeanbythatis,byprayerandusingour
11constitution,God'sword,wewouldgothroughthe
12scripturesandseeiftherewasanybiblicalprincipleat
13allthatwouldinfluenceourdecisionanditcouldbe
14thatinourinitialdiscussionstherewassomethingthat
15maybeweweremissingandtheninanotherdiscussionthat
16wouldcometolight.SowewouldviewthatasGod'sspirit
17motivatingusbecausewebelievetheBibleisGod'sword
18andcamebymeansofholyspirit.
19
20Q.Andyourreferencetoyourconstitution,Iunderstand
21bythewayinwhichyouraisedtheBibleasyousaidthat,
22youwerereferringtotheBible?
23A.TheBibleisourconstitution,yes.
24
25Q.TheGoverningBodyisintheliteraturereferredtoas
26the"faithfulanddiscreetslave".Canyoubrieflyexplain
27whatthatmeans?
28A.Thankyouforthequestion.Thescripture,
29yourHonour,ifImayusemyBible
30
31THECHAIR:Q.Yes.
32A.IwouldliketoturntoMatthew,chapter24.Now,
33MrStewart,perhapsIcouldgiveyouthepagenumberto
34makeitalittlequicker.
35
36MRSTEWART:Q.Iamonitalready,MrJackson.
37A.Verygood.SoMatthew24,verses45and46.Thisis
38howtheGoverningBodyviewstheirrole,whattheytryto
39do.Itsays:
40
41Whoreallyisthefaithfulanddiscreet
42slavewhomhismasterappointedoverhis
43domestics,togivethemtheirfoodatthe
44propertime?Happyisthatslaveifhis
45masteroncomingfindshimdoingso!
46
47SothegoaloftheGoverningBodyascustodiansofour

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1doctrineistopublishliteraturethathelpspeoplein
2everydaylifeusingwhattheBiblesays.AndifImayjust
3addasecondscripture,whichIfeelisveryimportant,it
4istheonefoundinthebookofActs,chapter6.It's
5page1468,MrStewart,Actschapter6.Herewehave
6perhapssomethingthattheCommissionismoreinterested
7in,ratherthanjustouroverallspiritualteachings.We
8hadasituationinthefirstcenturywheretherewas
9apracticalproblemwheretheGreekspeakingwidowswere
10notreceivingfoodfromthearrangementthatwasinplace.
11Sotheapostlesatthatpointwereaskedtotrytosortout
12thisproblem,andyounoticethere,inverses3and4,it
13says:
14
15So,brothers,selectforyourselvesseven
16reputablemenfromamongyou,fullof
17spiritandwisdom,thatwemayappointthem
18overthisnecessarymatter;butwewill
19devoteourselvestoprayerandtothe
20ministryoftheword.
21
22Soverse4describestheroleoftheGoverningBodyaswe
23seeit,todevoteourselvestoprayerandthewordofGod,
24andthat'swhy30helpershavebeenassignedthatare
25involvedmorewiththepracticalsideofpolicyand
26implementation.
27
28Q.Docorrectme,MrJackson,ifImisunderstandthis,
29butthisdoesseemtometosuggest,intheuseofthe
30words"brothersselectforyourselvessevenreputablemen",
31thatabroadercongregationofbelieverswouldmakethe
32selection,ratherthantheseventhemselves?
33A.Well,thisisoneofthedifficultieswehavewhen
34asecularCommissionistryingtoanalyseareligious
35subject.Ihumblywouldliketomentionthatpoint.Our
36understandingofthescripturesistheseoneswere
37appointedbymeansoftheapostles.Yourpointiswell
38taken.Let'sassume,hypothetically,thatothersselected
39thesesevenmen,butitwasatthedirectionofthe
40apostles.
41
42Q.Doyou,asmembersoftheGoverningBody,regard
43yourselvesasbeingappointedbyJehovahGodorunderthe
44capacityorauthorityofJehovahGod?
45A.Whatweviewourselves,asfellowworkerswithour
46brothersandsisterswehavebeengivenaresponsibility
47toguardortobeguardiansofdoctrine.Sojustthesame

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1withelders,theyarereferredtoasbeingappointedby
2holyspirit,asyouprobablyareaware,webelievethat
3meansthatwhenanelderisinharmonywithwhattheBible
4saysisrequiredofanelder,thenheisappointedbythe
5holyspirit.SothesameistruewiththeGoverningBody.
6
7Q.Sowhereitissaidthatthefaithfulanddiscreet
8slaveismadeupofasmallgroupofanointedbrothers,are
9wetounderstandthebeliefbehindthatbeingthatyouare
10anointedbytheholyspirit?
11A.Thatiscorrect.ButifIcouldjustenlargeonthat,
12therearemanyanointedJehovah'sWitnesseswhodonot
13serveontheGoverningBody.
14
15Q.Andthatwouldincludealltheeldersaroundthe
16world;wouldthatberight?
17A.No,thatisnotcorrect.Theanointingprocessthat
18wearereferringtoisreferredtointhebookofRomans,
19chapter8,whereitspeaksofaheavenlycalling.Sothe
20majorityofJehovah'sWitnesseshopetoliveinaparadise
21earth,whereasthosewhohavebeenselectedbymeansof
22holyspirithaveahopetoliveinheaventogotoheaven
23whentheydie,inotherwords.
24
25Q.MrJackson,isthatthe144,000thatisreferredto?
26A.Ultimately,inthebookofRevelation,chapter14,it
27referstothetotalnumberbeing144,000.
28
29Q.DoestheGoverningBody,ordothemembersofthe
30GoverningBodydoyouseeyourselvesasmodernday
31disciples,themoderndayequivalentofJesus'sdisciples?
32A.WecertainlyhopetofollowJesusandbehis
33disciples.
34
35Q.AnddoyouseeyourselvesasJehovahGod's
36spokespeopleonearth?
37A.ThatIthinkwouldseemtobequitepresumptuousto
38saythatwearetheonlyspokespersonthatGodisusing.
39Thescripturesclearlyshowthatsomeonecanactinharmony
40withGod'sspiritingivingcomfortandhelpinthe
41congregations,butifIcouldjustclarifyalittle,going
42backtoMatthew24,clearly,Jesussaidthatinthelast
43daysandJehovah'sWitnessesbelievethesearethelast
44daystherewouldbeaslave,agroupofpersonswhowould
45haveresponsibilitytocareforthespiritualfood.Soin
46thatrespect,weviewourselvesastryingtofulfilthat
47role.

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1
2Q.MrJackson,Iwouldliketoreferyoutoadocument
3Ibelievethatthereissomeonetheretoassistyou.Itis
4exhibit29028,anditistheBranchOrganisationJanuary
52015manual,aninparticular,atchapter1.Wouldyou
6confirmthatyouhavetheopeningpageofchapter1
7availabletoyou?
8A.Yes,Ido,thankyou,MrStewart.
9
10Q.Inparagraph1itsays:
11
12TheGoverningBodyofJehovah'sWitnesses
13ismadeupofbrotherswhoareanointed
14servantsofJehovahGod.
15
16Itakeitthatishowyouseeitinthemanneryouhave
17explainedafewmomentsago?
18A.That'scorrect.
19
20Q.Thenitissaid:
21
22Theyhavetheresponsibilityforgiving
23directionandimpetustotheKingdomwork.
24
25Andsomescripturesaregiven.Itakeitthatishowyou
26seeit?
27A.Thatiscorrect.
28
29Q.Italsothensays:
30
31Likeitsfirstcenturycounterpart,the
32GoverningBodytodaylookstoJehovah,the
33UniversalSovereign,andtoJesusChrist,
34theHeadofthecongregation,fordirection
35inallmatters.
36
37Wouldthatbehowyouseeit?
38A.Thatiscorrect,yes.
39
40Q.Theninparagraph2,itsaysinthefirstsentence:
41
42TheBiblesays:"Letallthingstakeplace
43decentlyandbyarrangement."The
44GoverningBodyobeysthisdirectionby
45puttinginplacevarioushelpfulprocedures
46andguidelinesthatensurethesmoothand
47orderlyoperationofthebranchofficesand

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1thecongregations.
2
3Now,fromthat,arewetounderstandthattheprocedures
4andguidelinesthatarepublishedbytheJehovah's
5Witnessesinparticular,theWatchtowerBible&Tract
6SocietyofPennsylvaniaaretheproceduresandguidelines
7referredtohere?
8A.IfIunderstandyourquestioncorrectly,MrStewart,
9ifIcouldjustexplain,asithighlightshere,thereis
10aresponsibilityoftheGoverningBodyandmayIremind
11youthatyouarequotingfromapublicationthatisnot
12aconstitution,isnotalegaldocument,isnotacontract,
13itisanexpressionoftherelationshipand
14responsibilitiesbetweentheGoverningBodyandthebranch
15committee.Sointhisparagraph,wearehighlightingto
16thebranchcommitteestheresponsibilitythatwefeel,that
17thereisaneed,yes,forcertainproceduresandfor
18certaindirectiontobegiveninaspiritualnature.
19
20Q.Fromthenextsentence,"ResponsibleChristianmendo
21theirpartbysettinganexampleofobedienceastheyput
22sucharrangementsintoeffect",arewetounderstandthat
23theexpectationoftheGoverningBodyisthatthebranches
24aroundtheworldwillactinaccordancewiththose
25proceduresandguidelines?
26A.Thatistheexpectation.ButmayIputtheprovisoon
27this:yousee,asparagraph2startsoff,thesecond
28sentence,"TheGoverningBodyobeysthisdirection"
29MrStewart,whatyouneedtounderstandwithregardtoour
30organisationisitisafaithdrivenorganisation.Thisis
31notanorganisationoflawyersorthosethatareoverly
32concernedwithlegalmatters.Soourprimaryallegianceis
33toJehovahGod.Now,theGoverningBodyrealisesthatif
34weweretogivesomedirectionthatisnotinharmonywith
35God'sword,allofJehovah'sWitnessesworldwidewhohave
36theBiblewouldnoticethatandtheywouldseethatitwas
37wrongdirection.Sowehaveresponsibilitiesasguardians
38tomakesurethateverythingisscripturallyacceptable.
39Soifthedirectiongivenisscripturallycorrect,thenwe
40wouldexpectthatthesemembersofthebranchcommittee,
41whothemselvesalsoareChristians,whoacceptthe
42constitution,wouldfollowthatdirection.ButifIcan
43alsosay,thereareprovisionsforthosebranchcommittees
44togetbacktousiftheyseethatthereissomethingthat
45doesn'twork,andthenwecanadjustitaccordingly.
46
47Q.Thankyou,MrJackson.Iwillcometothequestionof

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1adjustments,andsoon,inamoment,butfromwhatyouhave
2said,amItounderstandthattheGoverningBodyseeksto
3obeyJehovahGod?
4A.Absolutely.
5
6Q.AndthatthebranchesseektoobeytheGoverningBody?
7A.Firstofall,thebranchesseektoobeyJehovah.
8We'reallinthesamearrangement.Butbecausethey
9recogniseacentralbodyofspiritualmenwhogive
10spiritualdirection,thenwewouldassumethattheywould
11followthatdirectionor,ifsomethingisnotappropriate,
12thattheywouldidentifythat.
13
14Q.Inturn,thecongregationsareexpectedtoobeythe
15branches?
16A.Again,firstofall,theyhavetoobeyJehovahGod.
17Thatistheveryfirstthingthattheyneedtodo.Butif
18directionisgivenbasedontheBible,wewouldexpectthat
19theywouldfollowthatbecauseoftheirrespectofthe
20Bible.
21
22Q.AndthedefinitiveinterpretationoftheBiblefrom
23timetotimeistheGoverningBody;isthatright?
24A.Ultimately,asguardiansofourdoctrineandbeliefs,
25yes,somecentralgroupneedstomakethatdecision,but
26thatdoesn'tmeantosaythatwearejustonourown
27unilaterallymakingthosedecisionswithoutresearchand
28inputfromothers.
29
30Q.CouldIaskyoutolooknowatparagraph4onthat
31page?Itsays:
32
33TheGoverningBodygivesfinalapprovalfor
34newpublicationsaswellasnewaudioand
35videoprograms.
36
37Iunderstandthatcomesverymuchundertheresponsibility
38ofthewritingcommittee;isthatright?
39A.Thatiscorrect.
40
41Q.Andinparagraph5:
42
43TheGoverningBodycaresforthe
44appointmentanddeletionofBranchand
45Countrycommitteemembersanddesignates
46thebrotherwhowillserveasthe
47coordinatorofthecommittee.

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1
2Itakeitthatisthemannerinwhichthingsaredone?
3A.Thatiscorrect.
4
5Q.Returningtothequestionofpublications,whereit
6saysthereinparagraph4thattheGoverningBodyapproves
7publications,doesthatincludetheAwake!andWatchtower
8publications?
9A.Yes,thatdoes.ButmayIexplain.Yousee,wehave
10aproofreadingdepartmentthatobviouslyreadseverything
11beforeitisprintedandtheyareresponsibletomakesure
12grammaticallyeverythingiscorrect.Wehavecompositors
13whocomposethemagazines.Wehavealotofpeopleworking
14onvariousthings.TheroleoftheGoverningBody,andmy
15roleasamemberoftheGoverningBody,istoreadeachof
16thosepublications,lookingtoseeifitdoesharmonisethe
17scripturesornot.IhavenoideawiththeAwake!
18magazine,itmaybetalkingaboutsometechnicalissuethat
19involvesareasthatIknownothingof,butthemainthing
20formetoreaditis:isittranslatableanddoesitmatch
21whattheBiblesays?
22
23Q.Dothosepublicationswhichrequireapprovalofthe
24GoverningBodyincludethemanuals,suchasShepherdthe
25FlockofGod,OrganisedtodoJehovah'sWork,andthis
26BranchOrganisationmanualthatwe'relookingat?
27A.Yes,again,butwiththeprovisothatwedonotwrite
28thosemanuals.Thosethatareinvolvedwiththataspectof
29ourworkwritethem.Theydotheresearchthatis
30necessary.ThentheGoverningBodyfinallyreadsitto
31makesurenotthatthepolicycanworkineveryaspect,
32becauseobviouslywearenotfamiliarwithallthose
33variousaspectsoftheissue,buttomakesurescripturally
34nothingiswrong.
35
36Q.ButItakeittheGoverningBodytakesresponsibility
37forthosepublications?
38A.Wedotakespiritualresponsibilityforit,yes.May
39Ijustmention,ifthereisaprintingmistakeandwesay
40thatpenguinsarefoundinthemiddleofAustralia,then,
41yes,it'strue,wetakeresponsibility,butit'swithout
42notwithintherealmsofourexpertise.Butwewouldcheck
43toseewhoitwasthathadgiventhatwronginformation.
44
45Q.Andthepublicationsthatarereferredtoin
46paragraph4,wouldthatincludetheletterstoelders,or
47theletterstotheBodiesofEldersaroundtheworld?

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1A.Ifit'ssignedonbehalfoftheGoverningBody,yes,
2buttherearehundredsoflettersthataresentoutby
3servicedepartmentsthatarenotnecessarilycomingfrom
4theGoverningBody.
5
6Q.Well,Ishouldhavebeenclearer,MrJackson.I'm
7referringtothestandardletterstoBodiesofElders
8dealingwithgeneralmattersinanormativeway,not
9particularlettersdealing,perhaps,withaspecificissue
10thathasarisenhereorthere?
11A.True,MrStewart.Butit'sveryrarefor
12acongregationtoreceivealetterfromtheGoverningBody
13signedbytheGoverningBody.Whatwillhappenisthat
14atemplatemaybeapprovedofthebasicprinciples,andso
15on,butbranchesareallowedinmanycasestomake
16adjustmentsaccordingtotheirlocalcircumstancesnot
17adjustmentstoscripturalthings,theywouldneedtoget
18backtousonthat,butadjustmentsforlocal
19circumstances.
20
21Q.Thoseadjustmentsthemselves,though,areadjustments
22whichrequireapprovalofBethelinNewYork;isthatnot
23right?
24A.Iwouldbegtodifferonthatwithallrespect.
25Sorry,MrStewart,doyouneedmetostop?
26
27Q.No,no,carryon.
28A.Okay.Youcanhearmeokay?
29
30Q.Yes,thankyou.
31A.Okay.Thankyou.Soagain,we'retalkingabout
32awiderangeofletters.Lettersthataresignedbythe
33GoverningBody,yes,definitely,butpolicylettersmaybe
34adjustedlocally.WouldithelpifIgaveyouanexample?
35
36Q.Yes,MrJackson.
37A.Soinmanycountriesintheworld,Jehovah's
38Witnesses,intheirpreachingwork,iftheymeetsomeone
39whoisinterestedinhearingthemessage,theymaynote
40downtheirparticularsandthenreturnandvisitthem
41later.Butinsomecountriesthatisnotalegalthing
42thatyouareallowedtodo,it'sviewedasaninvasionof
43privacy.Soifaletterweretogooutthatdiscussedsome
44ofthoseaspects,wewouldexpectthelocalbranchwould
45makethenecessaryadjustmentssothatitwasappropriate
46tothosecountries.
47

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1Q.PerhapsIcanshowyouanexample,MrJackson.Ifyou
2canbeshownfromthetenderbundletab94.
3A.Ihaveithereinfrontofme.
4
5Q.Haveyouhadtheopportunity,MrJackson,toviewthis
6correspondencepreviously?
7A.No,Ihaven't.It'sfrom,Ibelieve,1998,isit
8wellbeforemytimeontheGoverningBody.
9
10Q.Iamreferringtothelastweek,MrJackson.Haveyou
11hadtheopportunitytoreadthiscorrespondence
12A.Ihavebeencaringformyfather.IwishIcouldhave
13hadtimetoprepareproperly,butIhaven'tbeenableto,
14andIassumedtheCommissionwaswantingtoknowwhat
15Icouldcontributepersonallyfrommyexperience.So,no,
16Ihaven'thadachancetoreadallthese.
17
18Q.Well,Iwilltakeyouthroughit,MrJackson.
19A.Thankyou.
20
21Q.YouwillseethisisaletterinApril1998fromthe
22AustraliabranchtotheGoverningBody'sservicecommittee.
23Iunderstand,ofcourse,youarenotontheservice
24committee,butyouwillseethattheAustraliabranchsays:
25
26Wearereplyingnowtoyourletter...
27
28Anditisreferenced
29
30concerningthepossibilityofputting
31somethinginwritingonthesubjectof
32confidentialityandthelawinrelationto
33childabusematters.Weappreciatethe
34opinionoftheWritingandService
35Committeesandwethankyouforthe
36opportunitytocommentfurther.Weare
37sorrytobesolonginreplying...
38
39Andsoon.Theninthenextparagraph:
40
41Uptillnowthebrothersgenerallyexpect
42thattheelderswillkeepallmatters
43confidential,sincethishasbeenstressed
44anumberoftimes.InAustraliaithas
45happenedthatsomeeldershavebeen
46preparedtoacceptpunishmentforcontempt
47ofcourtratherthandiscloseconfidential

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1information.However,wearenowsaying
2thateldersshouldcomplywiththelaw
3wheremandatoryreportingisrequiredif
4thereisnoexemptionavailabletothem.
5
6Theninthenextparagraph:
7
8Ithasbeensuggestedthatthefollowingbe
9printedinaQuestionBoxinOurKingdom
10Ministry.Itwouldbenecessaryto
11scheduleitaspartoftheservicemeeting
12program,unlesswesimplyaskthePresiding
13Overseeroranothereldersimplytoread
14thequestionandanswerinthe
15Announcementspartofthemeeting.
16
17Thenwhatisproposedissetout.Doyouseethat?
18A.Yes,Iseethat.
19
20Q.Thenyouwillseethereisareplytothatletterat
21tab96.
22A.Tab96.
23
24Q.On24July1998.
25A.Okay,mmmhmm.Iseethat.
26
27Q.Youwillseeatthefootofthepage,itisfromthe
28WatchtowerBible&TractSocietyofPennsylvaniaforthe
29servicecommittee,anditreferencestheletterof28April
301998referringtothesuggestionforapossiblequestion
31boxintheeditionofOurKingdomMinistry.Thenitsays:
32
33Aftercarefullyconsideringthematterit
34hasbeenconcludedthatiftheBranch
35CommitteeinAustraliacontinuesto
36recommendpublishingthesuggested
37material,thenitwouldbeappropriatefor
38thebranchtofeaturethesuggested
39questionandanswerasoutlinedinyour
40letter...Itwillnotbenecessaryto
41scheduletheinformationtobeconsidered
42onaservicemeetingprogram...Wewill
43leaveittothebrotherstoreadthe
44informationpresented...
45
46Now,whatthatsuggestsandIamprovidingyouwiththe
47opportunitytocommentonthisoranswerit,MrJackson

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1isthatevenmattersofthatdetailarefirstly,as
2amatterofpractice,puttoBethelinNewYorkfor
3approval,and,secondly,requiresuchapprovalorconsent?
4A.Inthisparticularinstance,obviously,thebrothers
5inAustraliawrotetotheservicecommittee.Butif
6Icouldjustmention,theimportanceofthistousisthat
7theGoverningBodygivesdirectionwithregardtothe
8churchservicesorthecongregationmeetingsofJehovah's
9Witnesses,andthis,Iassumeandthisisthefirsttime
10I'veseenthedocumentisaskingiftheycanincludethis
11intheactualprogramattheKingdomHalls,andIassume
12fromwhatissaidherethattheGoverningBody,orthe
13servicecommitteeoftheGoverningBody,hasgiven
14directiononthat.ButifIcouldhighlight,thereason
15forthatisitinvolvesourspiritualprograms.
16
17Q.Inmakingdecisionsonthepublications,Iunderstand
18fromwhatyousaythatyouareguidedbythescriptures?
19A.Thatiscorrect.
20
21Q.Andthatinvolves,obviously,interpretingthe
22scripturesfromtimetotime?
23A.ThatistheroleoftheGoverningBody.
24
25Q.AmIrightinunderstandingthattheGoverningBody's
26interpretationofthescripturesonanyparticularpoint
27mightchangeordevelopfromtimetotime?
28A.Thatiscorrectaswell.
29
30Q.SoIthinksomeexamplesmightbe,forexample,
31firstly,thequestionofbloodfractionsandwhetherthat
32isorisn'tcoveredbytheprohibitionforthereceiptof
33bloodtransfusions.
34A.Thatiscorrectaswell,butifIcouldjustmention,
35whenbloodtransfusionswerefirstintroduced,therewasn't
36alotofoptionswithregardtobloodfractions.
37
38Q.Yes,butmypointis,orwhatIamseekingto
39understandis,therewasaninterpretationatonepoint
40whichsaidthatmembersoftheJehovah'sWitnessesshould
41notreceivebloodfractions,butinmorerecenttimesit
42hasbeenaccepted,asIunderstandit,thatthereisno
43specificscripturaldirectiononthatonbloodfractions,
44thatissothatisamatterfortheindividualconscience
45ofJehovah'sWitnesses?
46A.Thatisright.AndMrStewart,ifImaymention,this
47isanexampleofthedesireoftheGoverningBodynottogo

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1beyondthescriptures.Clearly,wehavethedirectionin
2Actschapter15,28and29againstblood.ButifIcould
3alsomention,yousee,aswithanythinginthecommunity,
4moreandmoreknowledgebecomesavailablemedically,itcan
5beveryoverwhelmingtryingtoseeallthelatestmedical
6research,andsoon.ButtheGoverningBodytriestomake
7surethattheydon'tgobeyondwhatiswritten.Ifwesee
8thatadirectionfromthescriptureshasperhapsbeenused
9toobroadly,thenwearethefirstonestotrytocorrect
10that.
11
12Q.Itakeit,too,thatthestateofknowledgeaboutthe
13scripturesand,inparticular,historicalknowledgeabout
14scriptures,alsoimprovesorincreasesfromtimetotime?
15A.Thatiscorrect.Buttherearesomebasicthingsin
16theBiblethathavenotchangedrightfromthebeginnings
17oftheJehovah'sWitnessreligion,andIwon'ttakeyour
18time,obviously,goingthroughthose,butitisimportant
19torealisewhatarebasicthingsintheBible.For
20example,istheBiblefromGod?Thereisnopossibilityof
21uschangingourviewpointonthat.
22
23THECHAIR:Q.MrJackson,youprobablyknowthatwe
24havediscussedwithsomeofyourmembersearlierinthis
25hearingtherelationshipoftheBible,beingwrittenat
26atimeofparticularpoliticalandsocialstructure,and
27itsliteralrelevanceintoday'ssocialandpolitical
28context.Areyoufamiliarwiththosediscussions?
29A.Iam.Ididhearyourquestion,yourHonour,andIat
30thetimewasquitefrustratedthatIdidn'thavean
31opportunitytoanswer,soitappearsthisopportunityis
32nowcoming.
33
34Q.Iamgoingtogiveyouanopportunity.Now,itis
35plainthatovertime,inrelationtomattersofrelevance
36tothisCommission,ourunderstanding,bothmedical,social
37andofthepoliticalissuesthatarise,haschanged,and
38youareawareofthat?
39A.Iamawareofthat,yourHonour.
40
41Q.Now,oneofthecharacteristicsthatwehave
42identified,andI'vespokenaboutit,andI'msureyou
43wouldknowthis,thatismanifestintheareaofsexual
44abuseofchildrenwithininstitutionsisthechild's
45incapacitytotellanadultaboutwhathasbeenhappening
46tothem.Areyoufamiliarwiththatproblem?
47A.Thatiscorrect.Iamfamiliarwiththatproblem,

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1yes.
2
3Q.I'vedescribeditbyreferencetotheadmonitionthat
4wascertainlyprevalentwhenIwasachildthatchildren
5aretobeseenbutnotheardyouunderstand?
6A.Mmmhmm,Idounderstand.
7
8Q.Youarefamiliarwiththatconcept?
9A.Yes.Yes.
10
11Q.IsitrelevanttoJehovah'sWitnesses?
12A.YourHonour,inourpublicationsobviouslyIcan't
13giveyouexamplesnow,butwewouldbeveryhappytodo
14thatoneofthekeythingswetrytohelpparentstodo
15istoencouragetheirchildrentocommunicatewiththem.
16AsamissionaryintheSouthPacific,theculturesinthe
17SouthPacificdefinitelyfollowwhatyourHonourjustsaid.
18Ifchildrenarebeingdisciplinedorcounselled,theyare
19notsupposedtospeakatall.Andoverandoveragain,we
20encourageparents,"No,childrenneedtoexpress
21themselves,theyneedtofeelthelovesothattheycando
22that."
23
24Q.YouhavetheBiblethere.Ifyougoto1Timothy
25chapter3
26A.Yes.
27
28Q.verse4,thereisadiscussionofamanpresiding
29overhishouseholdhavinghischildreninsubjection.Now,
30whatdoesthatmean?
31A.That'saverygoodquestion,yourHonour.Biblically
32speaking,theword"subjection"infersrespectand
33awillingnesstocomplywithdirection.Itdoesnot
34
35Q.YourBiblethenprovidesareferencebacktoEphesians
36chapter6verse4?
37A.Thatiscorrect.
38
39Q.Whichimposestheobligationonfatherstobringtheir
40childrenupinthedisciplineandadmonitionofJehovah.
41Whatisthe"disciplineofJehovah"?
42A.YourHonour,theoriginallanguage,discipline,
43indicatesaprocessofteaching,educating,making
44adisciple.
45
46Q.Well,fromthatreferenceinEphesians,yourBible
47takesusbacktoProverbschapter13,verse34?

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1A.Yes.
2
3Q.Andtheexactquoteis:
4
5Whoeverholdsbackhisrodhateshisson.
6
7Whatdoesthatmean?
8A.So,yourHonour,youwillnoticethereisanasterisk
9thereontheterm"rod",andyouseethefootnote.
10
11Q.Yes.
12A."Disciplineorpunishment".Sointheapplicationof
13this,theterm"rod"isusedasasymbolorametaphorto
14indicatetheauthoritytogivesomepunishment.For
15example,inamoderndaysetting,myfathercouldsaytome
16Idon'tgotothemoviesbecauseIhadbrokensomeofthe
17rulesofthehome.
18
19Q.Soit'snotaboutinflictingcorporalpunishment,
20then?
21A.Itabsolutelyisnotaboutinflictingcorporal
22punishment.
23
24Q.Itwouldhavebeenwhenfirstwritten,wouldn'tit?
25A.Howpeopleapplieditbackthen,atthattime,of
26courseisopentoquestion.
27
28Q.Well,whatyouaretellingme,asIunderstandit,is
29thatyourreligion,yourchurch,ispreparedtointerpret
30theBiblehavingregardtocontemporarysocialattitudes
31andstandards;isthatright?
32A.Obviously,yourHonour,weneedtotakethatinto
33consideration,buttheprimaryresponsibilitywehaveisto
34thinkwhatdoesJehovahGodmeanbythis,andwelookat
35otherscriptures.Oneoftheproblemsthatmanyfolkhave
36whentheyreadtheBibleistheytakeoneverseandthey
37assumeitmeanssomethingoutofcontextornotin
38referencetootherscriptures.Soforourunderstanding,
39Jehovahhassaidthatchildrenshouldberaisedinaloving
40environment.Jesuswasraisedinsuchanenvironment.
41
42Q.Well,Ihavetakenyoutothewayyourownchurch
43constructsthebiblicalreferences,which,aswehave
44noticed,takesusbacktoProverbs;correct?
45A.Thatiscorrect.
46
47Q.Butwhatyouhavegivenusistheunderstandingwhich

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1yourchurchnowhasabouthowthatistoapplyin
2contemporarysociety;isthatright?
3A.That'sagoodquestion.Obviously,Icanonlyspeak
4aboutwhatweunderstandthistomeannow,butIwould
5arguethecasethatevenbackinancienttimesGoddidnot
6haveinmindforchildrentobebeatenupinabadway.
7
8Q.Doesyourchurchacceptcorporalpunishmentof
9children?
10A.Ourchurchacceptsthefamilyarrangementandexpects
11thatparentshavetheresponsibilitytodisciplineand
12raisetheirchildren.
13
14Q.Thatdoesn'tanswermyquestion.Doyouaccept
15corporalpunishment?
16A.Isee.Inourliterature,Ithinkyouwillseetime
17andtimeagainwe'veendeavouredtoexplainthathere
18"discipline"isreferringtomoreamentalpointofview,
19notcorporalpunishment.
20
21Q.Iamgoingtotellyou,youarestillnotansweringmy
22question.
23A.Oh,sorry.
24
25Q.Doyouacceptcorporalpunishment?
26A.No.
27
28Q.Youdon't?
29A.Notnotpersonally,no,andnotasanorganisation
30wedon'tencourageit.
31
32Q.Butdoyouprohibitit?
33A.Ourliteraturehaspointedoutthatthetruewayto
34disciplinechildrenisbyeducatingthem,notgiving
35corporalpunishment.YourHonour,Icanonlytellyouthe
36spiritbehindourwritings.
37
38Q.Now,I'msureyouknowthatoneoftheproblemsfor
39survivors,revealedbytheirevidenceinthisveryhearing,
40istheirconcernabouthavingtoapproachmenwithinthe
41churchtotelltheirstoryandthenhavethatstory
42assessedandjudgedbymenalone;doyouunderstand?
43A.Idounderstandthat,yourHonour.
44
45Q.Now,inthesocietyinwhichyoulive,andinwhich
46Ilive,wehaveseensignificantchange,althoughperhaps
47notyetcomplete,intherolewhichwomenplayinthe

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1decisionmakingandgovernmentofoursociety,haven'twe?
2A.Wecertainlyhave.
3
4Q.Thatisareflectionofacontemporaryunderstanding
5oftheroleandcontributionwhicheveryoneinoursociety
6canmaketothecommongood,isn'tit?
7A.Yes.
8
9Q.Now,Iamsureyouknowoftheconcernsexpressedby
10thewomenwhohavegivenevidenceinthishearingaboutthe
11confrontationanddifficultyinthatconfrontationwhich
12theyfoundinapproachingamaledominantstructure;you
13understandthat?
14A.Idounderstandthat,yourHonour.
15
16Q.Isthereroomforthechurchtochangethat?
17A.That'saverygoodquestion,andI'mgladyouasked
18it.Isthereachancetomakeelderswomenormakewomen
19elders?No.Thereisnoleewaythere.But,
20yourHonour
21
22Q.Whyisthat?Canyoutellmewhythatis?
23A.Sure,yes.Ifweturnto
24
25Q.IsitbecauseofaliteralapplicationoftheBible?
26A.YourHonour,itgoesbacktothethemeofthe
27scripturesrightfromthecreationofAdam,rightthrough
28Israelitetimes,totheChristianera.But,inall
29fairness,mayIjustsaysomethingwithregardtothat?
30
31Q.Mostcertainly.
32A.Yousee,theroleofwomenintheJehovah'sWitness
33religionisaverydignifiedrole.Wedon'tmakewomen
34well,wecertainlydonotwantwomentofeellike
35secondratecitizens.InGod'sview,menandwomenare
36equal.Butevenpeoplewhoflyaeroplanesrealiseyou
37can'tflyanaeroplanebycommitteetherehastobe
38apilotandacopilot.Andthat'stheBiblearrangement.
39It'snotbecauseofanylackofintelligenceorlackof
40abilityonthepartofwomen;itisanarrangementthathas
41stoodthetestoftime.
42
43Now,withinthatarrangement,theBibleclearlystates
44thatamandoesnothaveabsoluteauthorityoverawoman,
45andawomanisacoworker,acomplementtheBiblerefers
46toheras.SoIthinkinthecontextofunderstandinghow
47womenaretreatedamongJehovah'sWitnesses,Ithinkifyou

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1investigateditfurther,youwouldseethereareverymany
2happywomeninthemaritalarrangement.
3
4Q.Itusedtobethecasethatallofourpilotswere
5women[sic],wasn'tit,andwechangedthat.
6A.Allofourpilotswere?
7
8Q.Weremen?
9A.Allmen?
10
11Q.Yes,that'sright?
12A.Oh,weremen,yes.
13
14Q.Weremenandwe'vechangedthatnowandwehavewomen
15whoarepilots.
16A.That'sright.Andthat'sbecause
17
18Q.Whycouldn'tthechurchacceptthatwomencan
19contributetothedecisionmakingprocesses,particularly
20inrelationtoallegationsofsexualabusebroughtforward
21bywomen?
22A.Theanswer,yourHonour,isthatweexpectwomentobe
23involvedinthat.Butintheactualroleaselderswithin
24theChristiancongregationthereisaveryfirmstandard
25setthere.Thereisnoleewaywhatsoeverforthatinthe
26beliefofJehovah'sWitnesses.ButifIcouldmention,
27someofthereportsthatyouhaveconsideredarefrom25
28yearsago,andifIunderstandcorrectly,fromwhatlittle
29IheardoftheCommissioninthelastfewdays,MrSpinks
30veryaccuratelydescribedthattherehasbeenmoreofan
31awarenessofJehovah'sWitnessestomakesurethatany
32victimwhohasbeenavictimofahorriblecrimeisnot
33requiredtoactuallygobeforethreemen.We'vemade
34changes,yourHonour,becausethosechangesintheactual
35technicalitiesofthepoliciesdon'tchangetheyarenot
36affectedbytheactualBibleprinciples,exceptthevery
37importantprincipleofshowinglove,empathyandconcern
38andtryingtoavoidanyformoftrauma.Andthatisour
39desire.Ifitwasn'tperfectbefore,whichitwasn't,
40we'vetriedtochangethat,andwewillmakefurther
41changeswhenweconsidertherecommendationsofthe
42Commission.
43
44Q.Well,wewillcomebacktoyourprocesseslateron.
45IwillleaveyounowwithMrStewart.
46A.Thankyou,yourHonour.
47

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1MRSTEWART:Q.Justonthelastpoint,MrJackson,with
2regardtoasurvivorofsexualabusehavingtomakethe
3allegationdirectlytotheaccused,doyouagreethatin
4thosecircumstances,shouldasurvivorhavetomakethe
5allegationinthepresenceoftheaccused?
6A.Iagreethatitwouldbebetterforthemnottodo
7thatunlessthevictimwantstodothat.
8
9Q.Yes.That'swhyIphrasedmyquestioninthewaythat
10Idid.SoIwillrepeatit.Doyouagreethatinthose
11circumstancesthesurvivorshouldhavetomakethe
12allegationinthepresenceoftheaccused?
13A.Sorry,Idon'tunderstandyourquestion.Couldyou
14rephraseit?
15
16Q.Doyouagreethattherearenocircumstancesinwhich
17thesurvivorofasexualassaultshouldhavetomakeher
18allegationinthepresenceofthepersonwhomsheaccuses
19ofhavingassaultedher?
20A.Iagreethatthatisthecase.
21
22Q.AndasIunderstandyou,youaresayingonyour
23understandingthatisnotrequiredbyyourrulesinother
24words,yourrulesdonotrequirethesurvivorofasexual
25assaulttohavetomakeherallegationinthepresenceof
26thepersonwhomsheaccusesashavingassaultedher?
27A.IfIunderstandyourquestioncorrectly,fromwhat
28IhaveheardfromMrSpinks'testimony,thatisnot
29somethingthatwerequirenow.Iprefacethisinthefact
30thatitisnotmyfieldthatIworkwitheveryday.
31MrSpinksandthosewhoworkintheservicedepartmentwork
32withthesematters,butthatismyunderstanding.
33
34Q.Sodoyouaccept,then,thatthatshouldbemadeclear
35inyourdocuments,manualsandinstructionsinother
36words,thatitshouldbemadeclearthatasurvivorof
37asexualassaultshouldnothavetomakeherallegationin
38thepresenceofthepersonwhomsheaccusesashaving
39assaultedher?
40A.Absolutely.
41
42Q.MrJackson,canabranchcommitteepublishitsown
43manualsandguidelinesinrespectofjudicialcommittee
44proceduresforrespondingtoallegationsofchildsexual
45abuse?
46A.Iwouldthinkitwouldbeunusualforthattohappen.
47Seeingitisnotmyfieldperse,Icouldn'tgivean

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1inclusiveanswerwithregardtothat,butasfaras
2thegeneralprinciplegoes,Iwouldexpectthattheywould
3getbacktotheservicecommitteeonit.
4
5Q.Whatweseeinthedocumentsthatwehave,thatgovern
6thisissuecurrently,isthattheyaredocumentswhich
7originateundertheauspicesoforwiththeapprovalofthe
8GoverningBody.SoI'mreferringto
9A.That
10
11Q.Sorry,MrJackson?
12A.Sorry.Myapologies.
13
14Q.SoI'mreferringtoOrganisedtoDoJehovah'sWill,
15ShepherdtheFlockofGod,andtheguidelinesthatare
16publishedtothebranchcommittees.
17A.Thankyou.Thatisaratherlongquestion,butif
18I'veunderstooditcorrectly,wewouldexpectthegeneral
19frameworkofwhatwedotobepublishedasapprovedbythe
20GoverningBody.But,yousee,whenwesay"published",
21lettersarepublishedbythelocalbranchesthatindicate
22anyvariancethatmayneedtotakeplacewithregardto
23thosepolicies.Sothat'swhyIwasjusthesitanttosay
24thatit'sallinclusive.
25
26Q.Well,iftheAustraliabranch,forexample,wasto
27decidethattheinvestigativestepwhichprecedesthe
28appointmentofthejudicialcommitteeneednotbedoneby
29twoeldersbutcan,inAustralia,bedonebyawomanacting
30ontheirbehalf,wouldthatbesomethingthatwouldbeopen
31totheAustraliacommitteetofollowortoadopt?
32A.MrStewart,IcertainlywouldhopethattheAustralia
33branchcommitteewouldgetbacktotheservicecommittee
34withthereasonswhythatisneededandthen,eventually,
35IwouldhopetheywouldgettotheGoverningBodysothat
36wecouldapprovewhateverchangesareneededworldwide.
37
38Q.ButitmaybethatthebranchcommitteeinAustralia
39hasadifferentviewonthesemattersthanthebranch
40committeeinsomeothercountry.Wewilltakeonecloseto
41homeNewZealand,forexample.Orletmedoonefurther
42afield,anywhere,ifyoulike,thePhilippinesmaytake
43adifferentview.Istherespaceforthebranchcommittees
44tohavedifferentinvestigativeproceduresindifferent
45partsoftheworld?
46A.Toansweryourquestion,theanswerisyes,thatis
47possible,butifthereasonfordoingsoistoavoid

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1trauma,thenthatissomethingtheGoverningBodyis
2interestedin.Wewanttoseehowwecanencourageallthe
3countriestoavoidthat.Butifitisamatterof
4technicalitythattheyneedtodoitacertainway,then
5yes,wewouldexpecttheywouldatleastnotifyusand
6therecouldbedifferences.
7
8THECHAIR:Q.MrJackson,isthereanybiblical
9impedimenttoawomanbeingappointedtoinvestigatean
10allegation?
11A.Thereisnobiblicalimpedimenttoawomanbeing
12involvedwiththeinvestigation.Infact,Ithinkoh,
13sorry.Iamsorry,yourHonour.
14
15Q.No,youcontinue.
16A.AndIthinkthatisoneofthebenefitsofthe
17RoyalCommission,whathasbeenbroughttolightisthat
18certainlyitisgoodforawomantobeinvolvedwith
19particularlysomeofthesensitiveareas.ButifIcould
20justmention,manyofourpublicationsareverybroadin
21aspects.We'renotjusttalkingaboutthisoneaspectof
22childabuse,whichisahorrificcrime,butitcanalso
23thesameprinciplesareusedforothersins,suchas
24drunkennessandotherthingstheBiblementions.Butin
25thissensitivearea,yes,IthinktheCommissionhas
26clearlyshownthatitwouldbegoodforwomentobe
27involved.
28
29Q.Isthereanybiblicalimpedimenttoadetermination,
30ajudicialdetermination,beingmadebyabodywhich
31includeswomen,althoughtheeldersthereaftermayrespond
32asthedecisionmakerinrelationtowhathappensto
33someoneafteradecisionhasbeenmadeastothetruthor
34notofanallegation?
35A.That'sagoodquestion.CouldIjustmentionfirst,
36yourHonour,somethingpleasebearwithmeonthis.The
37judicialsystemthatJehovah'sWitnessesuseisnotin
38competitionwiththecriminaljusticesystem.Werespect
39thatandwefeelthatthatissomethingthatthecommunity
40needstomakeuseof.Butalso,ifIcanjusthighlight,
41anyvictimisnotviewedassomeonethatneedstostand
42beforeajudicialcommittee.Theydidnotdoanything
43wrong.Theyaretheonesthathavebeenvictimised.They
44needthehelp.
45
46Now,toansweryourquestiondirectly,womencanbe
47involvedinthisverysensitivearea,butbiblically

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1speaking,theroleofthejudgesinthecongregationlays
2withmen.That'swhattheBiblesaysandthat'swhatwe
3endeavourtofollow.
4
5Q.Canyougivemethereferenceforthat?
6A.Yes.Inthescriptures
7
8Q.Thatis,judgesbeingonlymennotelders,but
9judgesbeingonlymen?
10A.Okay.IwouldhavetocheckIthinkDeuteronomyis
11oneofthem,butwithregardto1Timothy,chapter3and
12I'msure,yourHonour,youareveryfamiliarwiththis,in
13verse1:
14
15Thisstatementistrustworthy:Ifamanis
16reachingouttobeanoverseer,heis
17desirousofafinework.Theoverseer
18shouldthereforebeirreprehensible,a
19husbandofonewife,moderateinhabits,
20soundinmind,orderly,hospitable,
21qualifiedtoteach,notadrunkard,not
22violent,butreasonable,notquarrelsome,
23notaloverofmoney,amanpresidingover
24hisownhouseholdinafinemanner,having
25hischildreninsubjectionwithall
26seriousness.
27
28Inbiblicaltimes,thesameexpressionthatisusedfor
29"elder"isalsousedfor"olderman".Andwhenweare
30translatingofcourse,thatismyfieldsometimesitis
31hardtodecidewhetheritmeans"elder"asinapositionor
32"olderman".Butdefinitely,whenitspeaksofjudgesat
33thegatesofIsrael,wearetalkingaboutoldermen.But
34Iapologise,yourHonour,seeingyouaskedthisquestion,
35Icannotgiveyoutheexactscripturalreferencebutwill
36behappytodothat.
37
38Q.Wewouldappreciateit,becauseonepossible
39modificationtomeetthisissueofthelackofwomenas
40judgesofallegationsbroughtforwardbywomenagainstmen
41maybeamodificationofyourprocesstoincludewomenin
42thejudicialdeterminationstep.Youunderstand?
43A.Idounderstand,yourHonour,andwewillmakesure
44yougetthosereferences.
45
46Q.Canyouunderstandhowawoman,ayoungwomanany
47womanmightfeelwhenallegationswhichshemakesof

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1havingbeensexuallyassaultedbyamalearedetermined
2exclusivelybymen?
3A.Inthecontextofapolicestation,Icanunderstand
4that,yourHonour.But,please,mayIalsomention,the
5roleoftheseelders,theyarefriendsofthoseinthe
6congregation.Theirroleistoshepherd,help,carefor,
7andsoalthoughperhapsayoungpersonmayfeelthatway,
8andwewoulddoeverythingwecanwithintheBible
9parameterstomakesurethatthatiseasedsothataperson
10isn'tputinthatverydifficultsituation.Butstill,
11ultimatelythedecisionmaybewithoutthatpersonwouldbe
12made,andthedecisionisnotconcerningthecriminality
13thatisthecriminalsystem.Thedecisionisconcerning
14thespiritualcleanlinessofourcongregationandthe
15rehabilitationofthosethatcommitsins.
16
17Q.That'stoconcentrateontheabuser,butwhatI'm
18talkingaboutisthepositionofthepersonwhohasbeen
19abused.Doyouunderstand?
20A.Idounderstandthat,yourHonour,andthewomen
21
22Q.Allthatyouhavejustsaidistalkingaboutitfrom
23onlyoneperspective;doyousee?
24A.Mmmhmm.So,fromtheotherperspective,with
25avictim,themainthingforusishelping,supportingand
26guiding,andwomenwillbeinvolvedwiththat.Yousee,
27thejudicialcommitteeisnotjudgingthevictim.The
28eldersinthecongregationandthewomeninthe
29congregationhavetheobligationtogivefullsupportto
30anyvictim.
31
32Q.Thatmaybeso,butthepointthatIwasseekingto
33haveyouaddresswascanyouunderstandhowawomanmight
34feelwhenallegationswhichshebringsforwardagainst
35amaninthecongregationareconsideredandjudged
36entirelybymen?
37A.ObviouslyI'mnotawoman,soIwouldn'tliketospeak
38ontheirbehalf,butthetwoofus,Iamsure,could
39understandfromwhathasbeenexpressedandbelievethat
40perhapstherewouldbeahesitancythere.
41
42Q.CanIaddthistothequestion,becauseit'soneof
43thefactualcircumstanceswefaceinthishearing:canyou
44understandthecircumstanceforawomanwhobringsan
45allegationagainstanelder,whoisafriendoftheothers
46whomustjudgethetruthorotherwiseoftheallegation?
47Canyouunderstandhowthatpersonmustfeel?

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1A.Icantrytounderstandit,yourHonour,yes.But,
2again,couldIaskandagain,thisisnotmyfieldof
3activity,butasfarasIunderstand,wehaveaprocessin
4placewherebyaneutralmember,likeacircuitoverseer,
5wouldbeinvolvedwithsuchacase.
6
7Q.Itwouldbethecase,woulditnot,thateven
8acircuitoverseerisgoingtoknowanelderwell?
9A.Theyshouldbefamiliar,buttheyalsoknowthevictim
10well.Yousee,it'snottakingconsiderationofthe
11spiritualresponsibilityyousee,theseeldersarenot
12paidtodotheirjob.Theydoitbecauseofloveand
13concernandwantingtoshepherdtheflock.AndsoIthink
14whatwe'remissingisthespiritualelementtothiswhole
15thing,wherepeoplearecomfortabletalkingtooneanother.
16
17Q.Idon'tknowwhetheryouhaveheardtheevidenceof
18thesurvivorsheredidyouhearthatevidence?
19A.No,unfortunatelythatwasabadtimeformecaring
20formyfather.Iapologise,butIwilllookforwardto
21hearingasummaryofit.
22
23THECHAIR:Yes,MrStewart.
24
25MRSTEWART:Q.MrJackson,forexample,theelderswho
26heartheseallegations,oneofthethingstheyhavetodo
27istomeasurethecredibilityofthepersonwhosaysthat
28shesufferedabuse;isthatnotright?
29A.Yes,asaprosecutorwouldalsomeasuretheevidence
30thathehasbeforehegoestoacase.
31
32Q.Well,notsomuchtheprosecutor,perhapsyouare
33thinkingofthejudge?
34A.Sorry,no.IfIunderstandcorrectlywell,I'm
35goingwayoutofmyfieldbecauseI'mnotalawyer,but
36Ithoughtanycasethatwouldgotothepoliceandbe
37broughttotheprosecution,youwouldhavetoatleast
38establishtherewassomevalidity.Maybethat'snotthe
39caseinAustralia.
40
41Q.Well,thepointisthis,MrJackson,isn'tit:you
42haveappreciated,Ithink,thatanelderlymanmaybeina
43difficultpositiontounderstandjusthowayoungwoman,
44forexample,makinganaccusationoranallegationofchild
45sexualabusefeelsinhavingtomakethatallegation?
46A.Thatistrue,butatthesametime,perhapssomeone
47whohasneverexperiencedthetraumathatthesevictims

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1havefelt,evenawomanmayfindthatveryhardaswell
2becauseit'ssuchapersonalexperience.
3
4Q.Butyouwillaccept,I'msure,thatinmanyinstances
5whereawomanoryoungwomanmakessuchanallegation,she
6wouldfeelalotmorecomfortablehavingtomakethe
7allegationandexplainthecircumstancestoanotherwoman?
8A.Ican'tsaythatIwouldgiveacommentonthat,
9MrStewart,becauseyousee,again,ittakesawaythe
10considerationoftherelationshipsinourcongregations.
11It'snotlikeyourchurcheswherepeoplejustgotochurch
12anddon'ttalktooneanother.Thecongregationsdobecome
13familiarandtherecanbeafriendship.SoIagreethat
14thepointyouaretryingtogetat,weneedtoknowwhat
15thevictimiscomfortableindoingwithregardtowhothey
16speakto.
17
18Q.Yougaveusascripture,1Timothy,3verse1,which,
19asIunderstoodit,wastheauthorityfortheprinciple
20thatasitisputthere,anoverseer,butIthinkinmodern
21languageanelder,mustbeaman;isthatright?
22A.That'scorrect.
23
24Q.Andisthereascripturalreferenceperhapsthisis
25theoneyousaidyouwouldneedtocomebacktouson
26whichsaysthattheinvestigationofallegationsofserious
27misconductmustbedonebyanelder?
28A.IfIcouldjustclarifyyourquestionalittle,
29MrStewart,yousee,whatIthinkyouhaveheardinthe
30Commissionisthatwehavesaidthatwomencanbeinvolved
31inallthesevariousaspectsleadinguptotheactual
32decisionmakingwhetherornotsomeoneisspiritually
33qualifiedtoremaininthecongregation.Sojustthatone
34aspect,theactualjudicialcommitteeitself,iswherewe
35believethatmenwouldbeinvolved.
36
37THECHAIR:Q.MrJackson,that'sthequestionIwas
38puttingtoyou,yousee.Iwaswonderingwhetheryoucould
39haveastructurewhichmeantthatthejudicialdecisionas
40towhetherornottheallegationwastruecouldbe
41determinedbyabodycapableofhavingwomenrepresentedon
42it,andthatbody'sdecisionwouldthenbetakentothe
43eldersinrelationtodecisionstodisfellowship;doyou
44understand?
45A.Iunderstandthat,yourHonour.
46
47Q.Well,isitpossibletomakethatchange?

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1A.Itispossibletomakesurethateldersarefully
2awareofthewholestory.Butforwomentobeeldersin
3thecongregation,thatisnotpossible.
4
5Q.No,MrJackson,Iwasn'taskingyouthat.Iwas
6askingyou
7A.Okay,sorry.
8
9Q.toconsiderwhethertheprocessmayinvolve
10adetermination,whichweoutsidethechurchwouldcall
11ajudicialdeterminationthatis,istheallegationtrue
12orfalseandthen,thatdecisionhavingbeenmade,the
13elderswouldthenmakeadecisionastotheconsequence,
14beingdisfellowshiporotherwise;doyouunderstand?
15A.Idounderstand.
16
17Q.Couldwomenbeinvolvedinthedeterminationof
18whetherornottheallegationistrue?
19A.Well,yourHonour,ifIcouldsay,Ithinkthey
20alreadyareinvolved,inthesense
21
22Q.Notinthedecision,MrJackson.Pleaseaddressmy
23question.
24A.Okay.Butyes,inwell,please,couldIjustusean
25example.Ifanunderagechildsaysthatsomethinghas
26happenedandthentwowomenareinvolvedwithhelpingthat
27person,surelytheyhavetodecidewhetherornotthefacts
28aretrue.Theythenpresentthosetotheelders.
29Otherwise,howwouldtheeldersknowwhatthefactsare?
30
31Q.MrJackson,youarenotdealingwithmyquestion.
32A.Iamsorry.Iapologisehumbly,yourHonour.
33
34Q.Wouldyoulikemetoputitagain?
35A.Ifyouwould,please.
36
37Q.Yourprocessatthemomenthasajudicial
38determinationwhichismadebytheelders,andthatisthe
39pointatwhichadecisionismadeastowhetherthe
40allegationistrueorfalse;doyouunderstandthat?
41A.Mmmhmm.
42
43Q.Youdo?
44A.Idounderstandthat,yourHonour.
45
46Q.Isitpossiblefortheprocesstobemodifiedsothat
47thatdecisioncanbemadebyabodywhichcouldinclude

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1womenthatis,thedecisionastowhetherornotthe
2allegationistrueorfalse,madebyabodywhichcould
3includewomen,andthatdecisionwouldthereafterbeacted
4uponandadecisionmadeastowhetherornotto
5disfellowshipbytheelders?Doyouunderstand?
6A.Idounderstand,andIapologise,yourHonour,fornot
7answeringdirectly.Ididn'tunderstandfullywhatyou
8weresaying.Theanswer,yourHonour,issuchasituation
9wouldbeworthyofusconsideringanddoingresearchand
10checkingthescriptures,yes.Thepossibilityof
11consideringthatisthere.
12
13Q.Thankyou.
14A.Thankyou,andIapologiseagain.
15
16MRSTEWART:Q.MrJackson,Iwouldliketoreferyouto
17ShepherdtheFlockofGod,whichistab120,atpage71,
18Ringtail72.Thisisthemanualforelders,andithas
19beenapplicablesince,asIunderstandit,2010;isthat
20right?
21A.Thisisyes.Thatappearstobethecase.
22
23Q.Woulditbethecasethatthismanualcamethroughthe
24processesofthewritingcommittee?
25A.Thismanualwouldhavebeenpreparedwiththehelpof
26theservicedepartmentsandtheservicecommitteewould
27havepreparedthisinformationand,yes,thewriting
28committeewouldhaveneededtoreadeverythingandcheckto
29seeifscripturallyitwasapplicable.
30
31Q.I'mshowingyoupage71,butthatisinchapter5,
32whichisheaded"Determiningwhetherajudicialcommittee
33shouldbeformed",anditstartsoutbysettingoutvarious
34wrongdoings,seriousonesincludingmanslaughter,attempted
35suicide,porneia,andsoon.Sothatisthecontext.But
36youwillseeatparagraph37itsays:
37
38EventhoughaChristianhasbeenaccusedof
39wrongdoingseriousenoughtorequire
40ajudicialaction,ajudicialcommittee
41shouldnotbeformedunlessthewrongdoing
42hasbeenestablished.
43
44Andtheword"established"isinitalics.Somyquestion
45iswhoisitwhodecideswhetherthewrongdoinghasbeen
46established?
47A.Itismyunderstandingthattwoeldersnormallywould

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1investigatethemattertoseeifthereissomesubstanceto
2theaccusation,havinginmind,asyoumentioned,this
3couldberangingfromsomeonegettingdrunktosomeone
4committingimmorality,andsoon.Sothosetwoelders
5wouldatleastseeiftherewassomebasisofthe
6accusationandtheywouldgetbacktotheBodyofElders,
7whothenwouldappointthejudicialcommittee.
8
9Q.Sothenthequestionis,isitscripturallynecessary
10thatthatroleisperformedbytwoelders,asopposedto,
11forexample,awomanappointedforthem?
12A.MayIask,MrStewart,isthisthesamequestionthat
13hisHonourasked,oristhereadifference?Areyoujust
14emphasisingthepoint?
15
16Q.Well,I'mtryingtounderstandyouranswer,
17MrJackson.Soifyoucanjustaddressyourselftomy
18question,whatI'vesoughttodoistoidentifyavery
19specificdecisionintheprocess.It'sthedecisionasto
20isthewrongdoingestablished.Youhavesaidthatthatis
21donebytwoelderswhothenreportbacktotheBodyof
22Elders,whichthenappointsajudicialcommittee.SoIam
23askingscripturallyisthereroomforthatdecisionasto
24whetherthewrongdoinghasbeenestablishedtobeanyone
25otherthanelders?
26A.Good,Iunderstandyourquestion,MrStewart.Could
27wetakethecaseofwherethetwoelderscannotspeakto
28thevictim,thatperhapstheydon'twanttotraumatisethe
29victim,andmaybetwowomenthatareveryclosetothe
30victimareabletospeaktothem.Inasettingsuchas
31that,alltheelderswouldhaveisthetestimonyofthetwo
32womenwithregardtothetestimonyofthevictim.Soin
33thatway,thewomenaresayingwhethertheyfeelthatitis
34avalidcaseornot.Sotheanswertoyourquestionis
35yes,womencanbeinvolvedscripturally.
36
37Q.Butyouknow,MrJackson,myquestionhadnothingto
38dowithinvolvement.Ithadtodowithwhomakesthe
39decision.Thepersonwhomakestheteaisinvolved,ina
40sense,iftheybringtheteainwhenthedecisionisbeing
41considered.I'mnottalkingaboutinvolvement.I'm
42talkingaboutwhomakesthedecision.AmItounderstand
43yourevidenceisthatitmustbeelderswhomakethe
44decision?
45A.Thatismyunderstanding.
46
47Q.Andareyouabletofurnishascripturalreferencefor

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1thatinotherwords,whereitisthatitisprovidedin
2thescripturethatthatisnecessarilyso?
3A.Theprinciplethatwewerediscussingbeforeisthe
4headshipprinciplefoundin1Corinthianschapter11,and
5Iamsure,MrStewart,youhavealreadyreferredtothisin
6theCommission,butbearwithmepleaseasIlookatit.1
7Corinthianschapter11andverse3doyouhaveitthere
8already?
9
10Q.ThistimeIwillbegratefulforthepagenumber,
11MrJackson.
12A.Okay.So1536.
13
14Q.Ihaveit.
15A.Soverse3ofchapter11:
16
17ButIwantyoutoknowthattheheadof
18everymanistheChrist;inturn,thehead
19ofawomanistheman;inturn,theheadof
20theChristisGod.
21
22Sointhechurchdecisionmakingarrangement,itisbased
23ontheheadshipprinciplethatwehaveinthefamilyandin
24theJehovah'sWitnessescommunityasawholethat
25scripturallythemenmakethefinaldecisions.Butthat
26doesnotmeanthatthereisnoinputfromthewomen.
27
28Q.Thankyou,MrJackson.Whileyouarein
291Corinthians,perhapsyouwouldtakealookat
301Corinthians14,verses33to35?
31A.Ihaveitalready,yes.
32
33Q.Whichsays:
34
35ForGodisaGodnotofdisorderbutof
36peace.Asinallthecongregationsofthe
37holyones,letthewomenkeepsilentinthe
38congregations,foritisnotpermittedfor
39themtospeak.Rather,letthembein
40subjection,astheLawalsosays.Ifthey
41wanttolearnsomething,letthemasktheir
42husbandsathome,foritisdisgracefulfor
43awomantospeakinthecongregation.
44
45Now,asIunderstandit,thatisnotappliedinthe
46Jehovah'sWitnessesorganisationinotherwords,youdo
47allowwomentospeakinthecongregation?

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1A.I'msorry,youhavetwoquestionsthere.CanIanswer
2thefirstonefirst.Jehovah'sWitnessesdofollowwhatis
3statedhere.Icanexplain.Thesecondoneis,yes,women
4areallowedtospeakinthecongregation.MayIexplainto
5youthereasonwhyIfeelwedofollowwhatishere?
6
7Q.Yes,ofcourse.
8A.Soyounoticeinverse34,that'swhereitsays"keep
9silent",butifyoulookatverse28,thereitsays:
10
11Butifthereisnointerpreter,hemust
12keepsilent.
13
14Sotheexpression"keepsilent"isreferredtoamale,and
15thenverse30,whereitistalkingaboutprophets,andin
16verse30itsays:
17
18Ifanotheronereceivesarevelationwhilst
19sittingthere,letthefirstspeakerkeep
20silent.
21
22Sothischapteristalkingaboutorderlyconductinthe
23churchmeetingsorinthecongregationmeetings.Soverse
2428,ifsomeonestartsspeakinginanotherlanguagebut
25thereisnointerpreter,thescripturesays"lethimkeep
26silent".Now,itappearsthatinthecongregationthere
27wasaproblembecausesomewomenwereactuallychallenging,
28arguing,debatingwiththemenwhoweretakingtheleadin
29givingteaching.Now,youmaynotfeelthatthatisthe
30case,butthat'sthecontextofwhatissaidhere,andin
31chapter11,itreferstothefactthatawomancouldspeak
32withaheadcovering.SoIthinkaveryliteral
33interpretationofverse34andverse35isnotappropriate
34inthecontext.
35
36Q.Areyouabletogiveanoverarchingexplanationasto
37whenitisthatwhatissaidintheBibleshouldbetaken
38literallyandwhenitshouldbegivenanexpansive
39interpretationasinthisinstance?
40A.Verygood.TheanswerisJehovah'sWitnessesyou
41see,itisnotamatterofsevenmenintheGoverningBody
42takingoneverseandsaying,"Whatdoyouthinkitmeans?
43Whatdoyouthinkitmeans?"Jehovah'sWitnessestrytouse
44theBibletoexplainitself.Sohere,in1Corinthians
45chapter4,ifweweretotaketheviewpointthatthis
46literallymeansthatawomancannotspeak,thenwewouldbe
47notgoinginaccordancewiththecontext.Sotheanswerto

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1yourquestionisyouhavetohavethewholepicture,and
2thatissomethingthat,foryourselfandthisis
3obviouslysaidinallduerespectsomeonewhoreadsthe
4Bibletheirwholelifeshouldunderstandthewholepicture.
5Andperhapsbymeansofhelpingyouwithregardtothat,
6therearetwootherscriptures.Oneisin1Timothy
7chapter2,whichIbelievehisHonourreferredtointhe
8Commission,page1588,andthereitsays,verses11and12:
9
10Letawomanlearninsilencewithfull
11submissiveness.Idonotpermitawomanto
12teachortoexerciseauthorityoveraman,
13butsheistoremainsilent.
14
15Now,youwillnoticetheasteriskgivesthealternativeto
16that"toremaincalm,remainquiet".Soobviously,thisis
17talkingabouttheroleofwomennotjumpingup,excitedly
18arguingwithothers.Andit'ssimilartowhat1Peter
19and,please,bearwithmechapter3sayswithregardto
20awomanwhoismarriedtoanonChristian.In1Peter
21chapter3,that'spage1623,MrStewarthaveyougotit?
22
23Q.No,Ihaven't,butIamsureyouwillreadittome,
24MrJackson?
25A.Okay.Verse1of1Peter,chapter3:
26
27Inthesameway,youwives,bein
28subjectiontoyourhusbands,sothatifany
29arenotobedienttotheword,theymaybe
30wonwithoutawordthroughtheconductof
31theirwives...
32
33Now,totakethepositionthattheexpression"without
34aword"meanstheywouldnever,ever,everspeaktotheir
35husbandwouldbeamisapplicationofscripture.Sothe
36GoverningBody,whenweconsiderthesethings,isverymuch
37awareoftryingtogetthewholecontextofthings.
38Otherwiseit'slikeaskingtwopeopleforanopinionon
39somethingandgettingthreedifferentopinions.Ifsomeone
40justtakesoneverse,theycouldhaveallsortsofopinions
41aboutit,buttheworkofJehovah'sWitnessesistotryto
42understandthewholeBibleasonemessagefromGod.Now,
43Idon'texpectthatyouwouldhavethesameviewpoint,but
44Ithankyouforatleastlettingmeexpressourviewpoint.
45
46Q.MrJackson,let'smakeitalittlemoreconcrete,
47then,inaveryspecificexample.Youwillknowthatone

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1ofthethingsthathasemergedinthelastcoupleofweeks
2isthatinAustraliaatleast,intheJehovah'sWitness
3organisation,thereisapracticeofnotreportingchild
4sexualabuseallegationstotheauthoritiesunlessrequired
5bylawtodoso.Doyouacceptthat?
6A.Iamnotfamiliarwiththestatisticsorthegeneral
7practice,butIcantellyouwhythereisaspiritual
8dilemmabecauseofthisquestion.
9
10Q.Well,that'swhatI'mdrivingat.Perhapsyoucan
11addressthatquestionspecifically,whichisthis:is
12thereascripturalbasistothatpolicyorpractice,being
13nottoreportchildsexualabuseallegationstothe
14authoritiesunlessrequiredbylawtodoso?
15A.Thankyoufortheopportunitytoexplainthis.
16IthinkveryclearlyMrToolepointedoutthatifthe
17AustralianGovernment,inalltheStates,wastomake
18mandatoryreporting,itwouldmakeitsomucheasierfor
19us.But,let'ssay,thespiritualdilemmathatanelder
20hasistoconsiderhowdidhegettheinformationthathe
21hasbeentold?Now,thereisascripturalprincipleinthe
22bookofProverbs,chapter25andI'mnotsaying,
23MrStewart,thatanyoneoftheseprinciplestakes
24precedence,butitissomethingthattheelderwouldneed
25totakeintoconsideration.SoProverbs25verses8
26through10.That'sonpage905:
27
28Donotrushintoalegaldispute,
29forwhatwillyoudolaterifyour
30neighbourhumiliatesyou?Pleadyourcase
31withyourneighbour,butdonotrevealwhat
32youweretoldconfidentially,sothatthe
33onelisteningwillnotputyoutoshameand
34youspreadabadreportthatcannotbe
35recalled.
36
37Now,I'mnotsaying,MrStewart,thisistheonlyfactor,
38butitisonefactorthatallministersofreligionhave
39grappledwithwhenitcomestoanissuesuchasthis.
40
41Thesecondissueisthateldersaretold,asis
42mentionedin1Peter,chapter5,page1625,verses2and
433doyouhavethat,MrStewart?
44
45Q.Ido?
46A.Yes:
47

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1ShepherdtheflockofGodunderyourcare,
2servingasoverseers,notundercompulsion,
3butwillinglybeforeGod;notforloveof
4dishonestgain,buteagerly
5
6andthenthisisthepoint
7
8notlordingitoverthosewhoareGods
9inheritance,butbecomingexamplestothe
10flock.
11
12Thepointbeing,here,anotheraspectthatanelderneeds
13toconsiderishedoesnothavetheauthoritytolordit
14overortakeovercontrolofafamilyarrangement,where
15apersonlet'ssayitisavictimwhois24or25years
16ofagehasarighttodecidewhetherornottheywill
17reportthatincident.
18
19Theyalsorespectthefamilyarrangementthatthe
20appointedguardian,whoisnottheperpetrator,has
21acertainright,too.Sothisisthespiritualdilemma
22thatwehave,becauseatthesametime,wewanttomake
23surethatchildrenarecaredfor.
24
25Soifthegovernmentdoeshappentomakemandatory
26reporting,thatwillmakethisdilemmasomucheasierfor
27us,becauseweallwantthesamegoal,thatchildrenwill
28becaredforproperly.
29
30Q.Let'stakethesituationinafamilywhereoneofthe
31children,let'ssaytheeldest,reportshavingbeenabused
32byherfather.
33A.Yes,sorry,sir,aquestion?
34
35Q.Yes,ifthatreportisacceptedashavingvalidity,
36youwouldacceptthatthepotentialisthattheother
37childreninthefamilyremainatrisk?
38A.Thatiscorrect.
39
40Q.Andbynotreportingtotheauthorities,isthecase
41notthattheconfidentialityoftheonewhoreportedis
42regardedasbeingmoreimportantthantoprotectthosewho
43arestillatrisk?
44A.No,MrStewart,ifIcouldjustwhatI'mtryingto
45highlightisthereareseveralfactorsthatmakeithard
46foraministerofreligiontomakeaclearcutorquick
47decisiononthismatter.Obviously,Ithink,again,what

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1hasbeenhighlightedtotheCommission,theeldersshould
2encouragetheguardianofthechild,orwhoeverisinthat
3familyarrangementthatisnottheperpetrator,tonotify
4theauthorities.
5
6Q.Leavingasidethequestionofoverridingmandatorylaw
7fromthecivilauthorities,doyouseethepossibility
8withinthescripturesasyouhaveidentifiedthemfor
9achangeinthepracticeofJehovah'sWitnesses?Inother
10words,woulditbewithinthescripturesfortheJehovah's
11Witnessesorganisationtoadoptapolicywhichsaysthatin
12caseswherethereareothersatrisk,areportmustbemade
13totheauthorities?
14A.Thatisapossiblethingforustoconsider,and
15Ithink,already,theassumptionisthere,thatifany
16elderwastoseethattherewassomedefiniterisk,that
17theirconscienceshouldmovethemtodothat.
18
19ButthepointIwastryingtomake,MrStewart,is
20thereareotherscripturalfactorsthatmaybemakethata
21littlecomplicated,anditwouldcertainlybealoteasier
22ifwehadmandatorylawsonthat.
23
24Q.Turningtoanotheraspectthatwehavedealtwith,
25whichisthequestionofthetwowitnessrule,youwillbe
26awarethatifthereisnoconfession,thentwowitnessesto
27seriouswrongdoingarerequired,ortotwosimilarevents
28ofseriouswrongdoing,inorderthatthereissufficient
29evidencetoestablishajudicialcommittee.Doyou
30understandthat?
31A.Idounderstandthat.
32
33Q.Isthereascripturalbasistothat?
34A.Thetwowitnesstestimony?Isthatwhatyouare
35asking,MrStewart?
36
37Q.That'sright.
38A.Absolutely.IfIcouldtakeyoutothebookof
39Matthew,chapter18,thatisonpage1330,herearethe
40wordsofourLordverse16thewordsofourLordJesus
41Christ.Thisistalkinginthesenseofajudicial
42setting:
43
44Butifhedoesnotlisten,takealongwith
45youoneortwomore,sothatonthe
46testimonyoftwoorthreewitnessesevery
47mattermaybeestablished.

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1
2SofromthisandIcangiveyoualistofseveralother
3scriptures,butIdon'twanttotestyourpatienceandtake
4youtoalltheseverses,butbasically,thisisatheme
5rightthroughtheChristianGreekscriptures,theNew
6Testament,thattherulesofevidenceforajudicial
7hearinginvolvetwowitnesses.
8
9Butpleaseallowmetosayfurther:thisisonly
10talkingaboutsettingupajudicialcommittee.Itdoesn't
11meantosaythatJehovah'sWitnesseswouldfeelthat
12someoneistotally,ahundredpercentsqueakyclean,just
13becausetherewasonlyonewitnesstothecrime.
14
15Q.I'mnotsurewhatyoumeanby"ahundredpercent
16squeakyclean".Imean,therealityisifthereisonly
17onewitness,inthecaseofchildsexualabuse,thenit
18cannotbetakenfurtherbytheeldersand,asitisputin
19theliterature,itisleftinthehandsofJehovah?
20A.Yes,butpleasemayIcorrectyourcommentonthat,
21withallduerespect.Yousee,by"squeakyclean",I'm
22meaningthatit'snotlikesomeonebeingexoneratedby
23judicialhearing,wherebythere'sdoublejeopardyandthey
24can'tbetakenbeforethejudicialhearingagain.
25
26Ourliteraturehassaid,andweagree,thatinmost
27caseswithchildren,withchildabuse,theyaretellingthe
28truth.Thatisanestablishedthing.Theyarenotmaking
29upthesestories.So,immediately,theelderswouldput
30intoplaceprotectionmeasurestohelp,tomakesurethat
31thefamilycaresforthechildandthatduestepsaretaken
32toprotectthechild.
33
34Q.SoItakeityousaythatthatiswhateldersaround
35theworldshoulddefinitelydo?
36A.Theyshoulddo,becauseChristianprinciplesindicate
37thatiftheyrealiseachildisinadangeroussituation,
38actionshouldbetaken.
39
40Thejudicialhearingissimplyusdeterminingwhether
41aperson,theperpetrator,hascommittedasinthatwould
42warrantthembeingputoutofthecongregation.Butthat
43doesn'tmeantosaywearestupidandthatwethinkthat
44someonehasn'tdonesomething.
45
46Q.Iwanttotakeyouback,then,tothescripturalbasis
47forthat.SoyouhavereferredtoMatthew18,verse16.

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1AsIunderstanditandcorrectmeifIamwrongthat,
2inturn,really,isareferencebacktoDeuteronomy,19
3verse15.Inotherwords,whatJesusChristwasdoingis
4referringbacktothataspectofMosaiclawdealingwith
5evidence?
6A.Hedidquote,asheoftendid,fromtheMosaiclaw,
7buthegaveitChristianapplication.
8
9Q.ButthatisanelementtobefoundintheMosaiclaw,
10assetoutinDeuteronomy19:15;isthatright?
11A.Itis,anelementthatisfoundinboththeOld
12TestamentandtheNewTestament.
13
14Q.WhatIaminterestedin,andperhapsyoucanhelpme
15onthis,iswhythatappliestoacaseofsexualassault,
16whenclearlywhatwasbeingaddressedinthereferencein
17Matthewthatyougaveuswasnotaquestionofsexual
18assault?
19A.Yes,ifIcanjustclarifythatalittlefurther,
20then,therearebasicprinciplesthattheBible
21highlightsandIcangiveyou2Corinthians13,verse1.
22Sorry,MrStewart,canyouhearmeokay?
23
24Q.Yes,carryon?
25A.1Timothychapter5verse19isnotjustaoneoff
26verse.Thisisabasicprincipleforrulesofevidenceas
27foundintheBible.ButifIcanjustemphasiseagain,
28thisisonlyreferringtoachurchappointedcommitteethat
29determineswhetherapersonshouldremaininthe
30congregationornot.
31
32ThejudicialsystemandifIcansavethe
33Commission'stime,I'msureyouaregoingtowanttorefer
34mebacktoDeuteronomywhereitmentionsthepenaltyof
35stoning.Butwhatweneedtorememberisthelawsthat
36weregivenbackinthenationofIsrael,youhadthe
37judiciary,youhadthepunishmentsystem,everything
38combinedtogether.
39
40WhentheChristianarrangementcameabout,withour
41LordJesusChristgivingusdirection,theChristianchurch
42doesnothavetheauthoritytothrowpeopleintoprison,to
43executeortodoanythingtothem.Sothejudicialsystem
44intheChristianarrangementinvolvesthespiritual
45cleanlinessofthecongregation,andtherulesofevidence
46remainthesameallthewaythrough.
47

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1Q.MrJackson,thatisexactlythepointIwanttoget
2to.Youwillbefamiliarandperhapswecangotoit
3withDeuteronomy22:2327?
4A.Deuteronomy22:2327.
5
6Q.That'satpage304,whereitissaid:
7
8Ifamanisfoundlyingdownwithawoman
9whoisthewifeofanotherman,bothof
10themmustdietogether...
11
12Now,letmeprefacethis:I'mnotaddressingthequestion
13ofthestoning,Iamaddressingthequestionofevidence.
14
15...bothofthemmustdietogether,theman
16wholaydownwiththewomanaswellasthe
17woman.Soyoumustremovewhatisbadout
18ofIsrael.
19
20Thenitsays:
21
22Ifavirginisengagedtoaman,and
23anothermanhappenstomeetherinthecity
24andliesdownwithher,youshouldbring
25thembothouttothegateofthatcityand
26stonethemtodeath,thegirlbecauseshe
27didnotscreaminthecityandtheman
28becausehehumiliatedthewifeofhis
29fellowman.Soyoumustremovewhatis
30evilfromyourmidst.
31
32AndthenthenextexampleistheoneIamparticularly
33interestedin:
34
35If,however,themanhappenedtomeetthe
36engagedgirlinthefieldandtheman
37overpoweredherandlaydownwithher,the
38manwholaydownwithheristodieby
39himself,andyoumustdonothingtothe
40girl.Thegirlhasnotcommittedasin
41deservingofdeath.Thiscaseisthesame
42aswhenamanattackshisfellowmanand
43murdershim.Forhehappenedtomeether
44inthefield,andtheengagedgirl
45screamed,buttherewasnoonetorescue
46her.
47

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1Sothepointofthislastexampleisthatthere'snosecond
2witness,isthere,becausethewomanisinthefield,she
3screamed,buttherewasnoonetorescueher;doyouaccept
4that?
5A.CouldIexplain,MrStewart,thatyousee,Ithink
6alreadyundertestimonysomeofJehovah'sWitnesseshave
7explainedthatthetwowitnessesneededcanbe,insome
8cases,thecircumstances.Ithinktherewasanexample
9given
10
11Q.Iwillcometothat,MrJackson.Wewillgetthrough
12thisalotquickerandeasierifwejustaddressitone
13stepatatime?
14A.Okay.Sotheanswertoyourquestion
15
16Q.Thepresentstepisthis:inthatexample,youaccept
17itisacasewheretherewasnootherwitnessbeyondthe
18womanherself?
19A.Therewasnootherwitnessexceptthewomanherself,
20butaddedtothatwerethecircumstances.
21
22Q.Yes.Well,thecircumstanceswerethatshewasraped
23inthefield?
24A.Mmmhmm.Yes,theywerethecircumstances.
25
26Q.Therebeingonlyonewitness,itwasnevertheless
27sufficientfortheconclusionthatthemanshouldbestoned
28todeath.
29A.Mmmhmm.Yes.
30
31Q.Now,isit
32A.Ithinkwe'reagreeingonthepoint.
33
34Q.IsitnotthecasethathadJesusbeenaskedabout
35acaseofsexualabuse,hemayhavereferredbacktothis
36partofDeuteronomyandsaidthatit'snotrequiredtohave
37twowitnesses?
38A.IcertainlywouldliketoaskJesusthat,andIcan't
39atthemoment,Ihopetointhefuture.Butthat's
40ahypotheticalquestionwhich,ifwehadananswer,thenwe
41couldsupportwhatyousaid.
42
43Q.Well,itishypotheticalinasense,butreallywhat
44I'mdrivingatis,isthescripturalbasisandyouare
45thescholar,I'mnottothetwowitnessrulereallyso
46solidoristherenotspaceforyourGoverningBodyto
47recognisethatincasesofsexualabuseitneednotapply?

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1A.Again,ifIcouldjustmentionthefactthatwe've
2alreadyacknowledgedthatcircumstancescanalsobeoneof
3thewitnesses.
4
5Q.Well,Iwillcometothat,butmyquestionis
6adifferentone.It'swhetherthescripturalbasistothe
7twowitnessruleinrelationtocasesofsexualabusehas
8aproperfoundation?
9A.Webelieveitdoesbecauseofthenumberoftimesthat
10thatprincipleisemphasisedinthescriptures.
11
12Q.Youwillbeaware,ofcourse,inthecaseofadultery,
13solongastherearetwowitnessestothecircumstancesof
14opportunity,thatwillbesufficient?
15A.Yes.
16
17Q.So,inotherwords,thereneednotbetwowitnessesto
18theactofadulteryitself,butonlytothecircumstances
19ofopportunity?
20A.Sorry,youwouldneedtowalkmethroughthatalittle
21further.I'mnotquitesure.
22
23Q.Iwastryingtodoitbyashortcut,butIwilltake
24youtothedocument.ItisinthesameShepherdtheFlock
25book,whichistab120,atpage61.Soyouwillseein
26doyouhaveparagraph11there?
27A.Paragraph11yes,Ido.
28
29Q.Thisisalsointhechapterdealingwithdetermining
30whetherajudicialcommitteeshouldbeformed:
31
32Evidence(testifiedtobyatleasttwo
33witnesses)thattheaccusedstayedall
34nightinthesamehousewithapersonof
35theoppositesex(orinthesamehouseasa
36knownhomosexual)underimproper
37circumstances.
38
39That'stheheading.Thenitgoesontosay:
40
41Eldersshouldusegoodjudgmentin
42assessingthesituationbeforeforming
43ajudicialcommittee.
44
45Andintheseconddotpointitsays:
46
47Iftherearenoextenuatingcircumstances,

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1ajudicialcommitteewouldbeformedonthe
2basisofstrongcircumstantialevidenceof
3porneia.
4
5A.Mmmhmm.
6
7Q.Youwillseeatthefootofthepagethereisan
8exampleofamarriedbrotherspendinganinordinateamount
9oftimewithhisfemalesecretary,andtwolinesfromthe
10bottomitsays:
11
12Later,whenheclaimstobeleaving
13overnightfora"businesstrip",his
14suspiciouswifeandarelativefollowhim
15tothesecretary'shome.
16
17Theyobservetheopportunityforadulterytohavetaken
18place.Thenthosetwowitnesseswillbesufficientto
19establishthecase.Doyouseethat?
20A.Idoseethat.
21
22Q.Sonow,inthecaseofchildsexualabuse,itshould
23be,shoulditnot,thatawitnesstoanopportunityforthe
24sexualabusetohavetakenplacewouldbethesufficient
25secondwitness?
26A.Yes,ifit'sifthereisnowhatdoesitsayhere?
27
28Q."Extenuatingcircumstances"?
29A.Underimpropercircumstances.
30
31Q.Soasecondwitnesstocircumstantialorcorroborating
32evidencewouldbesufficienttofulfilthesecondwitness
33requirement?
34A.That'saverylargequestionandIthinkit's
35somethingthatwewouldneedtoconsidercarefully.
36
37Q.Well,it'sjustimportantastowhetherthesecond
38witnesshastobeawitnesstotheabuseitselfortowhat
39extentheorshecanbeawitnesstocircumstantialor
40corroboratingevidence.Soletmeuseanexample.What
41aboutthetrauma,evidenttraumaofthesurvivorwould
42thatbeabletobetakenintoaccountascorroborating
43evidence?
44A.Yes,itwouldneedtobetakenintoaccount,andif
45Icouldmention,MrStewart,thesearethethingsthat
46we'reinterestedinfollowinguponafterthe
47RoyalCommission,justtomakesurethateverythingisin

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1place,becausecertainlythesearethethingsweare
2interestedin.
3
4Q.Butyouwillunderstand,MrJackson,whatweare
5interestedinishowmuchroomyouhavetomove,asit
6were,towhatextentyouareboundbythescripturesandto
7whatextentyouhaveflexibilitytochangeyourprocesses.
8A.That'sright.Well,mayImentionI'msorry.
9
10MRSTEWART:IwasgoingtosaytohisHonour,wouldthat
11beaconvenienttimeforaluncheonadjournment.
12
13THECHAIR:Q.MrJackson,whatdidyouwanttosay?
14A.Iwasjustgoingtosay,Ithoughtthatthathad
15alreadybeenestablishedinthehearings,but,ifnot,
16certainlythatissomethingthatweneedtofollowupon.
17
18THECHAIR:Verywell.MrJackson,it'sappropriatethat
19wenowtakeabreakforlunchhere.Wewillcomebackat
202o'clockSydneytime.
21
22LUNCHEONADJOURNMENT
23
24MRSTEWART:Q.MrJackson,Ijustbrieflywanttodeal
25withacoupleofprinciples,orguidingbeliefs,ofthe
26Jehovah'sWitnessorganisation.Firstly,doyouconsider
27JehovahGodtobealovingGod?
28A.Absolutely,plus1John4:8saysso.
29
30Q.DoyouconsiderJehovahGodtobeacompassionateGod?
31A.Yes,Ido.
32
33Q.DoesJehovahGodrecognisetheworthanddignityof
34allhumanbeings?
35A.Absolutely.
36
37Q.So,inotherwords,notrestrictedonlytothosewho
38aremembersofJehovah'sWitnesses?
39A.No.That'swhyJesuswassentintotheworld,forall
40mankind.
41
42Q.Andobviouslythatincludeswomenandchildren?
43A.Womenandchildrenaswell.
44
45Q.DoestheJehovah'sWitnessorganisationthenrecognise
46anindividual'sfreedomtomakereligiouschoices?
47A.Yes,wedo.

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1
2Q.AsIunderstandit,yourorganisationdoesrecognise
3anindividual'sfreedomtoreportcrimestothe
4authorities?
5A.Absolutely.
6
7Q.AsIunderstandit,peoplewhonolongerwanttobe
8knownasoneofJehovah'sWitnesses,butwhohavebeen,
9mustthendissociate;isthatright?
10A.No,notnecessarily.Imeetmanypeopleinmytravels
11thatperhapswereJehovah'sWitnessesatonestagebutthen
12havedecidednolongertobeactive.Sotheyhaven'tgone
13throughaformalprocess.
14
15Q.Well,Ihavechosenmywordsdeliberately,MrJackson.
16A.Okay.
17
18Q.Ifsomeonenolongerwantstobeknownasoneof
19Jehovah'sWitnesses,theymustthendisassociate;isthat
20right?
21A.Again,please,iftheywanttotaketheactionof
22doingthat.But,ofcourse,theyhavetotalfreedom.If
23theydon'twanttoapplytoofficiallyberemovedasoneof
24Jehovah'sWitnesses,theycantellanyonetheywantthat
25theyarenolongeraJehovah'sWitness.
26
27Q.Iwillcomebacktothat,butperhapsIcantakeyou
28totab109,page155.ThisisthemanualOrganisedtoDo
29Jehovah'sWill?
30A.Isthisthesectionondisassociation?
31
32Q.Yes,that'sright.Thisisamanualwhichisissued
33toallbaptisedJehovah'sWitnesses;isthatright?
34A.Thatiscorrect,orno,letmeclarify.Sorry,let
35mebeprecise:thosewhoareapprovedtogofromdoorto
36door.Sosomeonewhoispreparingforbaptismandisan
37unbaptisedpublisherwouldbeallowedtohaveacopy.
38
39Q.SoallbaptisedJehovah'sWitnesseswouldbeguidedby
40this,but,inaddition,yousaysomewhoarenotyet
41baptisedmayalsohaveacopyofthis?
42A.Thatiscorrect.
43
44Q.Thankyou.Andthisisthecurrentedition,2005.
45Thereisn'tamorerecentedition,isthere?
46A.No,thereisn'toneavailable.
47

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1Q.Soifwehavealook,inthefirstsentence,itsays:
2
3Thetermdisassociationappliestothe
4actiontakenbyapersonwho,although
5abaptisedmemberofthecongregation,
6deliberatelyrepudiateshisChristian
7standing,rejectingthecongregationbyhis
8actionsorbystatingthathenolonger
9wantstoberecognisedasorknownasone
10ofJehovah'sWitnesses.
11
12Soisitthecase,then,thatsomeonewhonolongerwants
13toberecognisedasorknownasoneofJehovah'sWitnesses
14mustthendisassociate?
15A.No,itdoesn'tsaytheymustdoanything.Ifyouread
16on,youwillseethereisaprocess.Thisgivestheperson
17therighttoofficiallyhaveanannouncementmadethatthey
18arenolongeroneofJehovah'sWitnesses.But,as
19Ialreadysaid,iftheydecidetheydon'twanttoexercise
20thatright,theydon'tautomaticallycomeunderthis
21provision.
22
23Q.Butthenpeoplewhodon'texercisethatrightare
24theninotherwords,theyare,asyoudescribed,
25inactivestillsubjecttotherulesanddisciplineofthe
26organisation,aren'tthey?
27A.Iwouldhavetocheckonthat,becausepersonally
28that'snotmyfield.Butmyunderstandingis,ifaperson
29hasmadeitknownbytheiractionsinthecommunityover
30aperiodofyearsthattheyarenotwitnesses,wewould
31onlyholdanyreportsinabeyanceuntiltheydecidedthey
32wantedtoreturn.
33
34Q.MrJackson,Ihavetosaythatmyunderstandingisif
35someoneinthatpositioniscaughttransgressingoneofthe
36rules,theywouldstillbesubjecttothedisciplinary
37proceedings,includingpossiblydisfellowshipping;isthat
38notright?
39A.Thatisapossibility,butinallfairnesstoyour
40question,Ithinktherearecircumstances,butIcouldn't
41makeadefinitivecommentonthat.
42
43Q.So,forexample,iftheyhadbecomeinactiveorsought
44tofadewithoutformallydisassociating,andtheelders
45cametovisitandfoundthemcelebratingChristmasor
46abirthday,theywouldbefoundtobeintransgressionof
47therules,wouldtheynot?

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1A.Thatisnotmyunderstanding.Butagain,asIsaid,
2itisnotmyfield,thatgoesintopolicywithregardto
3thosetypeofthings,butfrommypersonalexperience,
4that'snotthecase.
5
6Q.MrJackson,yousayit'snotyourfield,butyouare
7amemberoftheGoverningBodywhichisresponsible,asyou
8havesaid,forthewholefield,andyouhavebeenamember
9for10years,andallthecommitteesareresponsibletoand
10accountabletotheGoverningBody.
11A.Thatiscorrect.
12
13Q.Soitisyourfield,isn'tit?
14A.Onlyasfarasapprovingthebasicscriptural
15principles.Soisthereascripturalprinciplethatyou
16haveinmindyouwanttoaskmeabout,orareyoutalking
17aboutpoliciesandimplementationofpolicies?Thereis
18adifferencethere.
19
20Q.Yes.Andthepoliciesareallsubjecttothe
21scripturalprinciples,aren'tthey?
22A.Yes,andifyouhaveaquestiononthescriptural
23principle,I'mveryhappytotryandexplainit.
24
25Q.And,forthatreason,thepolicieshavetobeapproved
26bytheGoverningBodytoensurethattheyareinkeeping
27withscripturalprinciples?
28A.That'scorrect.Butthefactthatthepoliciesat
29timesneedtobechangedshowsthatthereisleewaythere.
30
31Q.Andifitisnotthecase,asyouseemtosuggest
32mightbeapossibility,althoughyousayyoudon'tknow,
33thatsomeonewhohasnotactivelydisassociatedbutmerely
34soughttofadeorbecomeinactiveisnotgovernedbythe
35rules,thenwhereisthelinedrawnbetweenthosewhoare
36subjecttotherulesandthosewhoaren't?
37A.That'sagoodquestion,andthat'swherejudgment
38comesin.By"judgment",Imeanusingaperson'snousas
39towhethersomeoneisstillperceivedasoneofJehovah's
40Witnessesinthecommunity.
41
42Q.Isn'tthatthepoint,thatifsomeoneisperceivedas
43oneofJehovah'sWitnessesinthecommunity,that'sbecause
44theyhavenotdisassociatedorbeendisfellowshipped?
45A.Well,ithastodowithwhatthepersonistelling
46otherpersons.
47

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1Q.Well,there'snomiddleroad,isthere?Imean,you
2areeitheramemberandsubjecttotheorganisationoryou
3arenotisn'tthatthecase?
4A.Yes,butIthoughtyouwereaskingmeabout
5disassociation.
6
7Q.Well,Iam,indeed.Soifsomeonehasn't
8disassociatedbuthassoughtmerelytobecomeinactiveor
9tofade,theyarethenstillsubjecttotheorganisation's
10disciplineandrules?
11A.IftheyacknowledgebeingoneofJehovah'sWitnesses.
12
13Q.Andiftheydothecontrarywhichistosaytheyare
14notoneofJehovah'sWitnessestheeffectofthatis
15disassociation?
16A.That'siftheydecidetogodownthatcourse.
17
18Q.Andiftheydon'tactivelydisassociate,thenthey
19willbedisfellowshippedasapostate?
20A.No,anapostateissomeonewhoactivelygoesagainst
21whattheBibleteaches.
22
23Q.Well,iftheelderscomeandknockonthedoorto
24amemberwhohasbeeninactiveandsoughttofadeawayand
25says,"Well,areyoustillaJehovah'sWitnessornot?",
26andthepersonsays,"Well,no,Idon'twanttobe
27aJehovah'sWitness",theconsequenceofthatwillbe
28eitherdisfellowshippingordisassociation,won'tit?
29A.No,Idon'tagreewiththat,notfromwhatIhave
30seen.CanIjustsay,thishypotheticalsituation,which
31isprobablyonethatcouldhappentwoelderscallatthe
32doorofsomeone,theyarenotgoingtocomeoutandsay,
33"Hello,I'mcelebratingChristmas".Itpresupposesthat
34Jehovah'sWitnesseshavesomesortofspynetworkto
35monitorthesepeople,whichwedon't.Butifthatperson
36says,"Look,IwasbaptisedasoneofJehovah'sWitnesses,
37butI'mnolongeractive",nodoubttheelderswillsay,
38"Well,wewouldencourageyoutoreturn.Isthereanything
39wecandotohelpyou?"Now,inthatprocessofthem
40returning,iftheyfeelpromptedtosaythattheyhavebeen
41livingalifestylethatiscontrarytowhatJehovah's
42Witnesseswouldlive,thencertainlywewouldhandlethat.
43
44Q.Let'stakethathypothesis.Saytheyvisitthis
45household.MrJackson,canyouhearme?
46A.Ican,yes.Sorry,youstartedIdidn'thear
47aquestion.

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1
2Q.Yes,itwasechoingbackatme,butitseemstohave
3beenresolved.MrJackson,let'stakethathypothesisof
4thetwoeldersvisitingthehouseholdofsomeonewhohas
5beeninactiveforsometime,andseektoexplorewhether
6thatpersonwouldcomebacktotheactivefoldand
7encouragethemtodoso,intheprocessofwhich,in
8visitingthathousehold,theyfindthatthatpersonis,in
9theeyesofaJehovah'sWitness,livinginsin.That
10personwouldthenbesubjecttothedisciplineofthe
11organisation,wouldn'tthey?
12A.Inacasesuchasthat,yes.
13
14Q.Andtheonlywaytoavoidthatwouldbeto
15disassociate?
16A.Iftheydidn'twanttogothroughtheprocess.But
17mightImentioninyourhypotheticalsituation,theperson
18hasindicatedthattheywanttocomeback,andmany,many
19peopleinthatsituationdowanttocomeback.
20
21Q.No,MrJackson,myhypotheticalhadnothingtodowith
22anyonewantingtocomeback.Myhypotheticalwaspremised
23onthebasisthatsomeonewantstoleaveornotbe
24involved,andI'mexploringthepossibilitywhichyouput
25outthereofthembeingabletojustbecomeinactiveand
26notactuallyendupoutsidetheorganisationornotendup
27disassociating.Doyouunderstand?
28A.Ido,sorry.Ihadmisunderstoodthefactthatyou
29saidthattheyhadindicatedtheywantedtocomeback.I'm
30sorry.
31
32Q.Sothepointwe'vegotto,then,isthat,as
33Iunderstandit,apersonwhohasbecomeinactiveand
34wishesmerelytoremaininactiveisstillsubjecttothe
35organisation'srulesanddisciplinenotso?
36A.Iftheywanttocomeback.Butwedon'twedon't
37runapolicestatewherewegoandtryandforcepeopleto
38followourbeliefs.
39
40Q.Leavingthattooneside,thepointis,forexample,
41iftheeldersvisitedandfoundthepersontobelivingin
42sinintheeyesoftheJehovah'sWitnesses,thentheelders
43would,followingtheprocessandprocedures,discipline
44thatpersonundertherulesoftheorganisationnotso?
45A.Yes,like,inasituationwhereitwasfoundthat
46someonewhoclaimedtobeoneofJehovah'sWitnesseswas
47livinginsin,thentheelderswouldtrytoascertain,

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1well,whatneedstobedone?Weobviouslywanttohelpthe
2person,sothefirststepwouldbetoascertain,dothey
3wanttocomeback,aretheywillingtochangewhattheyare
4doing?Andif,ultimately,thepersoniswillingtotalk
5tous,then,yes,thatwouldbeinvolvedwiththejudicial
6process.
7
8Q.Butiftheyarenot,theneithertheymust
9disassociateortheywillbedisfellowshipped?
10A.Thatwouldbeinthatparticularcase,butIcanthink
11ofmanyscenarioswhereitwouldn'tbe.
12
13Q.It'sright,isn'tit,thatinthecaseofboth
14disassociationanddisfellowshipping,theremainingmembers
15oftheJehovah'sWitnessescannotassociatewiththe
16disassociatedordisfellowshippedperson?
17A.Yes,that'saccordingtotheBibleprinciples,which
18I'msureyouhavealreadyread.
19
20Q.Andthatincludesevenfamilymembersnotlivingin
21thesamehousehold?
22A.Thatiscorrect.
23
24Q.Sosomeonewhowantstoleavetheorganisationmust
25choose,youaccept,betweenfreedomfromtheorganisation
26ontheonehandandfriends,familyandsocialnetworkon
27theother?
28A.IthoughtImadeitquiteclearthatIdon'tagree
29withthatsupposition.Areyoutalkingaboutagrosssin
30thathasbeencommittedorsomeonewhojustwantstoleave
31Jehovah'sWitnesses?Letmeclarifyit.Ifsomeoneno
32longerwantstobeanactiveJehovah'sWitnessandtheyare
33notinthecommunityviewedasaJehovah'sWitness,wedo
34nothaveasocalledspiritualpoliceforcetogoand
35handlethat.
36
37Q.MrJackson,therealityofthesituationisthat
38apersonwhohasbeenbaptisedaJehovah'sWitnessis
39thereaftereitherintheorganisationoroutofit;isthat
40notright?
41A.Ithinkperhapsyouhavegotyourfactsalittlewrong
42there.
43
44Q.Idon'tthinkthat'scorrect,becauseyouhave
45acceptedalready,MrJackson,thatapersoninthe
46situationyouhavepostulatedofmerelybecominginactive
47isstillsubjecttotherulesoftheorganisation?

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1A.Yes,butifIcouldmention,MrStewart,yourfirst
2propositionyouputforward,thattheymeetsomeonewhois
3celebratingChristmasyouknow,thispersonisnot
4associatingwithotherJehovah'sWitnesses,notactively
5tryingtochangeotherpeople,andsoonapersonsuchas
6thatisnotgoingtobehandledjudicially,asfaras
7Iunderstand.So,sorry,Ihavetodisagreewithyou,but
8Ihopeyoucansee
9
10Q.MrJackson,youareagreeingontheexampleofwhat
11theydowrong.That'snotmypoint.Mypointistheymay
12donothingwrong,buttheyarestillsubjecttotherules
13oftheorganisationintheeventthatatsomepointtheydo
14dosomethingwrong?
15A.Iwillagreewiththat.ButIdon'tagreewiththe
16sweepingstatementthattheyonlyhavethetwochoices.
17ThatwasthepointIwasdisagreeingwith.
18
19Q.Well,it'sright,then,isn'tit,becauseifthey
20don'twanttobesubjecttothedisciplineandrulesofthe
21organisation,thentheyhavetoleavebyactively
22dissociating;isn'tthatthetruth?
23A.That'siftheydefinitelydon'twanttobe,yes.
24
25Q.Yes.
26A.Buttherearesomethatdonotwanttomakethat
27activemove.
28
29Q.Well,theresult,then,isthattheyarefacedwith
30thechoicebetweenfreedomfromtheorganisationontheone
31handandhavingtolosetheirfamilyandfriendsandsocial
32networkontheother?
33A.That'showyouwouldliketoputit,MrStewart,but
34IthoughtI'mtryingtosaythattherearethose,someof
35whomIhaveheardof,thatjustfadeawayandtheyarenot
36activelyJehovah'sWitnesses.
37
38Q.And,MrJackson,youhaveputitthattheyhave
39achoicetoleaveornottoleave.Forsomeonewhowants
40toleave,perhapsbecausetheyhavesufferedabuseby
41someoneintheorganisationanddon'tfeelthatithasbeen
42treatedproperlyoradequately,it'saverydifficult
43choice,isn'tit,becausetheymustchoose
44A.Iagree,yes.
45
46Q.Anditcanbeaverycruelchoiceforthemnotso?
47A.Iagree,it'sadifficultchoice.

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1
2Q.Anditcanbepersonallydevastating,becausetheycan
3losetheirwholesocialnetworkandtheirfamilies?
4A.Thatcanbethecase,yes.
5
6Q.Wouldyouaccept,then,thatputtingpeopletothat
7choice,throughthissystemofdisassociatingfromthemor
8shunning,asitissometimesreferredto,iscontraryto
9theJehovah'sWitnessbeliefinfreedomofreligious
10choice?
11A.No,Idon'tacceptthat.Ithinkyouarejumpingto
12aconclusionthere,butIunderstandthatyouhavethat
13opinion.
14
15Q.Well,onwhatbasisdoyounotacceptthat?
16A.Becauserightthroughoutthearrangementwith
17Jehovah'sWitnesses,peoplehavetomakechoicesbasedon
18theirownfreewill.Forexample,tobebaptisedif
19someonewalksuptousandsays,"Iwanttogetbaptised",
20we'renotgoingtoallowthemtobebaptised.Theyhaveto
21firstofallunderstandthearrangementofChristian
22living.Usually,ittakesoneortwoyearsforthemtogo
23throughboththepublicationsthatwehave,sothatthey
24personallycanmakethatcommitment.Sothatisthechoice
25thattheymake.Now,wearenotforcingtheminanywayto
26remaininourorganisation.Butapointtorememberis
27thattheultimatestandardthatwebelieveinistheBible,
28andwefeelit'sgoodforpeopletolivebytheBible.The
29factthatmanywhohavebeendisfellowshippedreturnof
30theirownfreewillisanindicationthatthey,likewise,
31stillbelievethatitisagoodlifestyle.
32
33Q.MrJackson,youwerebaptisedatage13,amIright?
34A.Icertainlywas,yes.
35
36Q.AndinfactmanyJehovah'sWitnessesarebaptisedat
37anageevenyoungerthanthat?
38A.TherehavebeensomeIhavemetthathavebeen
39baptisedyounger.
40
41Q.Doyouconsiderthatatthatagesomeoneisoldenough
42andmatureenoughtomakeadecisionaffectingtherestof
43theirlives?
44A.Yes,Idoinsomecases.Obviouslytherearesome
45childrenthatwouldn'tbeabletomakethatdecision,and
46perhapssomequestionwhetherIcouldmakethatdecisionat
4713yearsofage,butIworkwithpeoplethathavebeen

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1baptisedwhentheywere11andtheyhavestuckbythat
2determinationtheirwholelife.
3
4Q.Thatmaybebecausetheycan'tleavetheorganisation
5withoutleavingbehindeveryonewhomtheyknow.
6A.Anythingispossible.
7
8Q.Yousee,let'stakesomeonewhoisbaptisedatayoung
9ageandthen,asayoungadult,decidesthatactuallytheir
10beliefslieelsewhereandtheywanttochoosesomeother
11systemofbelief.Theythenarestillgoingtobefaced
12withthestarkchoicethatwehaveidentified,aren'tthey?
13A.That'strue.
14
15Q.Andit'sonthatbasis,Isuggesttoyou,thatthat
16policyandpracticeoftheorganisationisinconflictwith
17theJehovah'sWitnesses'belief,asyouhavesaiditis,in
18freedomofreligiouschoice?
19A.No,wedon'tseeitthatway,butyouareentitledto
20youropinion.
21
22Q.Isuggestalsothatitisinconflictwiththeideaof
23alovingandacompassionateGod.
24A.Certainlythatwouldn'tbeinharmonywithwhatthe
25Biblesays,becauseattimesJehovahdisciplinedhispeople
26byhavingthemgointoexileandcomeback.SoJehovahis
27someonewhobelievesintheultimateoverallbenefitof
28goodforpersons,andsometimesthatincludessomeformof
29discipline.
30
31Q.Doyouacceptthatputtingpeopletothatchoicemakes
32yourorganisationinmanyrespectsacaptiveorganisation?
33A.Idonotacceptthatatall.
34
35Q.Isthereascripturalbasistothispolicyof
36shunning?
37A.Yes.Thankyouverymuchfortheopportunityto
38expressit.1Corinthiansisthescripturenodoubtyou
39haveseenitalready.1Corinthians,page1530
40
41Q.Canyoujustidentifyit
42A.1Corinthians,chapter5,startingatverse1,it
43speaksofasituationwheretherewassexualimmoralityin
44thecongregationinCorinth
45
46Q.Sorry,MrJackson,Iamreallyjustaskingisthere
47ascripturalbasis,andyouhaveidentifiedwhatitis,

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1becausemynextquestioniscanitchange?Inotherwords,
2isthereabasisuponwhichyouforeseethatyour
3organisationmightbeabletochangethatpolicy?
4A.No.
5
6Q.Doyourecognise,MrJacksonandinaskingthis
7question,letmemakeitclear,I'mnotsuggestingitis
8peculiartotheJehovah'sWitnessorganisation,thereare
9many,manyorganisationsinthispositionbutdoyou
10acceptthattheJehovah'sWitnessorganisationhas
11aproblemwithchildabuseamongstitsmembers?
12A.Iacceptthatchildabuseisaproblemright
13throughoutthecommunityandit'ssomethingthatwe'vehad
14todealwithaswell.
15
16Q.Doyouacceptthatthemannerinwhichyour
17organisationhasdealtwithallegationsofchildsexual
18abusehasalsopresentedproblems?
19A.Therehavebeenchangesinpoliciesoverthelast20
20or30years,wherewe'vetriedtoaddresssomeofthose
21problemareas,andbythefactthattheyhavechangedthe
22policywouldindicatethattheoriginalpoliciesweren't
23perfect.
24
25Q.Andyouaccept,ofcourse,thatyourorganisation,
26includingpeopleinpositionsofresponsibility,like
27elders,isnotimmunefromtheproblemofchildsexual
28abuse?
29A.Thatappearstobethecase.
30
31Q.Doyouaccept,MrJackson,thatmanyoftheefforts
32thatarebeingmadebydifferentpeopleandorganisations
33tohighlighttheissueofchildsexualabuseandtryand
34findsolutionsaregenuineeffortstoimprovethe
35situation?
36A.Idoacceptthat,andthat'swhyI'mhappytotestify.
37
38Q.Andthatsucheffortsarenotnecessarilyanattackon
39yourorganisationoritssystemofbeliefs?
40A.Weunderstandthat,too.
41
42Q.Youdescribedearlierinyourtestimonythatthework
43ofthisRoyalCommissionisbeneficial.Doyouaccept,
44then,thattheRoyalCommission'seffortsaregenuineand
45wellintentioned?
46A.Icertainlydo.Andthat'swhywecameintothe
47RoyalCommissionhopingthatcollectivelysomethingwould

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1comeforwardthatwouldhelpusaswellaseverybodyelse.
2
3Q.Wouldyoudisagree,then,withanyonewhosaidthat
4theeffortstohighlightanddealwithchildsexualabuse
5intheJehovah'sWitnesschurchareengaginginapostate
6lies?
7A.Iguessthat'sabroadquestion,becausesometimes
8thosewhomaketheseaccusationsmakemanyother
9accusationsaswell.Butletmeassureyou,theperson
10makingtheaccusationisnotthemainthing.Themain
11thingis:istheresomebasistotheaccusation.Andif
12thereissomewaythatwecouldimprove,theGoverningBody
13isalwaysinterestedinseeinghowwecanrefineour
14policies.
15
16Yousee,MrStewart,couldIjustemphasise,as
17areligion,twoverystrongthingswefeel.Oneis,wetry
18tokeepahighmoralstandard.Secondly,thereislove
19amongtheorganisation.Sowewanttotreatvictimsina
20lovingway.
21
22Q.Justonthatpoint,MrJackson,hastheGoverningBody
23consideredapologisingtosurvivorsofchildsexualabuse
24atthehandsofelderswithintheorganisation?
25A.Ihaven'tbeeninanydiscussionswithregardtothat.
26
27Q.Isthatsomethingthatyouforeseemighthappenin
28otherwords,thatanapologyatleastbeconsidered?
29A.TheGoverningBodyhasapologisedonothermatters,so
30formetosayIcan'tspeakcollectivelyforeverybody,
31butwehaveapologisedonthingsinthepast,inother
32areas,soitisperceivable.
33
34Q.HastheGoverningBodyconsideredtheintroductionof
35aschemeofpayingcompensationtopeoplewithinthe
36organisationwhohavesufferedchildsexualabuseatthe
37handsofelders?
38A.Well,letmesay,therearemanyschemesthatwe've
39hadwithregardtohumanitarianareas,likefloodvictims,
40andsoon.Iknowthisisnotrelated,I'mjust
41explaining.TheGoverningBodyishappyforour
42organisationtospendmoneyhelpingpersonshowmuchmore
43sosomeonewhohasbeentraumatisedoraffectedinabad
44way.
45
46MRSTEWART:ThosearemyquestionsforMrJackson,
47yourHonour.

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1
2THECHAIR:Q.Youknow,Isuspect,MrJackson,thatthe
3Commissionisconsideringaredressschemeforsurvivors.
4Areyouawareofthat?
5A.Ididhearitmentioned,yourHonour,butIhaveno
6ideaofthedetails.
7
8Q.Oneofthesuggestionsisthatthereshouldbe
9ascheme,nationalorotherwise,inwhichallofthe
10institutionsinwhichpeoplewereabusedcometogetherand
11provideforanindependentdecisionmakingprocesswhich
12wouldenableafairdistributionofcompensationforthose
13whowereabused.Doyouunderstand?
14A.Idounderstand,yourHonour.
15
16Q.WouldtheJehovah'sWitnessesbepreparedtocooperate
17inajointschemewithotherinstitutionswherepeoplewere
18abused?
19A.YourHonour,theansweriswewouldneedtoseethe
20details.Butthepossibilityofusmakingsurehelpis
21giventothosethathavebeenvictimscertainly,thatis
22apossibility.
23
24Q.DoesthatmeanthattheJehovah'sWitnesseswouldnot,
25asamatterofprinciple,declinetojoinwithother
26institutionsinacoordinatedredressscheme?
27A.YourHonour,wewouldneedtoseethatnothingwas
28scripturallyagainstusdoingthat.Buttherearemany
29timeswhenwehavetodealwithotherswithregardto
30financialmatters,soperse,it'snotsomethingthatis
31totallyoutoftheoptionpool.
32
33Q.Iwanttoaskyouaquestionaboutadifferentmatter.
34A.Yes.
35
36Q.MrStewartraisedwithyouthedifficultyofyour
37adherencetothebiblicalreferencesthatrequiretwo
38witnessesbeforeanallegationcanbeaccepted.You
39understand?
40A.Idounderstandthat.
41
42Q.Wehadevidenceand,indeed,thiswill,I'msure,be
43yourexperiencethatyouhearfromapersonwhoalleges
44thatsomethingwronghashappened,andyou,yourself,are
45entirelyconvincedofwhattheyaresayingtoyouandare
46satisfiedthatitiscorrect.Doyouunderstand?
47A.Idounderstand.

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1
2Q.Andyoucanbeinthatpositionwhenthereisnoother
3witnesstotheevent?
4A.Thatiscorrect.
5
6Q.Whatdoesthechurchdointhecircumstancewherethe
7allegationmaybeagainstafatherorsomeonewhootherwise
8hasclosecontactwithafamily,butthereisonlythe
9allegationofthechild,perhapsagirl,teenagegirl,so
10theallegationcan'tbeestablished?Whatdoesthechurch
11doabouthelpingthatchildand/orthatfamily?
12A.That'saverygoodquestion.Firstofall,theelders
13shouldlettheresponsibleadultorthevictim,if
14possible,knowthattheyhavearighttotakethistothe
15criminalauthorities,thejudicialsystem.Butthat'sjust
16amatterofnotifyingthemofthat.Butbecauseweare
17concernedabouttheactualphysicalwelfareofsomeoneina
18situationlikethat,wewouldmakesurethatthereare
19provisionsmadethatofcourse,ifitisinthefamily,
20wecan'ttakethechildoutofthefamilyphysically,but
21atleastmakesurethatthingsareputintoplacesothat
22thispersongetsthebestpossiblecareandprotection.
23
24Q.Whatwouldyouputinplace?
25A.So,firstofall,wewouldnotifyorallowthesay
26itistheguardianofthisvictim,whattheyneedtodo.
27Ofcourse,ifitgoestothepolice,thenitgoesright
28intothatwholegovernmenttypearrangement,wherebythe
29governmenthasauthoritytoperhapscomeinandseparate
30familiesandsoon.
31
32Q.But,MrJackson,manyofthesepeopledon'twanttogo
33tothepolicebecausethatinvolvespotentiallyapublic
34process,trial,andsoon.It'sverycommonthatpeople
35don'twanttogotothepolice.Butintheassumptions
36thatI'veputtoyou,theyoungpersonhasacknowledgedthe
37church'sobligationimposeduponthemtoreportthe
38misbehaviourtothechurchyouunderstand?
39A.That'scorrect.
40
41Q.Andthentheyfindthatthechurchwon'tdeterminethe
42allegationtobetrueandactaccordingly,becausethere's
43onlyonewitnessthatis,theyoungperson.Whatdoes
44thechurchdotohelpthatpersonorthatfamilyinthose
45circumstances?
46A.Well,asImentioned,firstofall,wewouldletthem
47knowthattheyshouldgotothepoliceandtrybecause

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1thisisbeyondtheparametersof
2
3Q.MrJackson,wecoveredthat.Thisisaperson,and
4therearemanyofthem,whodon'twanttogotothepolice,
5butthey'vecometoyourorganisationbecausetheyare
6requiredto,toreportmisbehaviour.Underlyingmy
7propositionis,ofcourse,thattheywouldexpectyour
8organisationtohelpthem.
9A.Yes.
10
11Q.Whatdoyoudo?
12A.Andthehelpthatiswell,canIjustmentionfirst
13ofall,yourHonour,ourorganisation,peoplecometoour
14Christianmeetingstwiceaweekandtheygoonthe
15preachingwork,butwhathappensinthehomeisbeyondthe
16actualjurisdictionoftheelderstotelltheparentshow
17theyshouldorganisethesethingswiththeirchildren.And
18thepointthatI'djustliketomakeis,yousee,then
19everyoneisputonalert.Oncetheaccusationismade,now
20weareaware.Coulditbethatthefather,inanimproper
21situation,anothertime,isseenbythemotherandthenshe
22bringsthisforwardthenwehavetwowitnesses.
23
24Q.Yes,butI'mputtingtoyouthepropositionthatyou
25haveonewitnesswhoyouabsolutelybelieve.
26A.Yes.
27
28Q.Whatdoyoudo?
29A.Well,fortheultimateprotectionofthatchild,
30Icouldiftheyfeelthatchild,andotherchildren,are
31indanger,Icanwell,Iwouldhopethattheconscience
32oftheelderswouldnotifythepoliceiftheparentisnot
33willingtodothat.
34
35Q.Soyouwouldhopethattheelderswouldactinthat
36way.Isthereany
37A.Yes.
38
39Q.instructionthattheyaretoactinthatway?
40A.Youknow,yourHonour,thisisnotmyfield.Ican't
41tellyouallthesectionswherewe'vesaidthat,butthat
42ismyunderstanding,butifthatinstructionisn'tgiven,
43that'sperhapssomethingthatweneedtolookat.
44
45Q.Andifthegirlsays,"No,Idon'twantthematterto
46gotothepolice.Idon'twanttheprospectofacriminal
47trial,butpleasecanthechurchhelpme",whatdoyoudo?

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1A.So,then,scripturalhelpwouldbegiven.Butwe
2can'tgoinandtakeachildawayfromparents.
3
4Q.Whatdoyoumeanbyscripturalhelp?Whatwouldthat
5be?
6A.Well,perhapsoneofthescripturalthingsthatwe
7couldshowis,youknow,theGod'sLovebookthatwas
8referredtointhisCommissionIthink.Idon'tthinkyou
9havethelastcoupleofpagesofthatbookformetorefer
10to.Butthereisafootnotetherethattalksaboutsecular
11actionwithregardtootherwitnesses,andthereisavery
12clearfootnotethatsaysthere,"Ifsomeonedoessomething
13likerapeoraseriouscrime,definitelythatshouldnot
14stopawitnessfromreportingittotheauthorities".So
15wewouldtrytospirituallyhelpthemtobecomeawareof
16theirrightsandtheneed,becausemainlyitistheir
17decision,butifthisaffectsotherchildren,neighbours
18andsoon,surelytheyneedtothinkalittlebeyondjust
19theoneperson.
20
21Thenthescripturalhelpthatwewouldgiveissimilar
22toothersituationswherepeoplehaveexperiencedhorrific
23travestiesintheirlivesandtheirhopeandtrustinthe
24Biblewillgivethemsomecomfort.Wefoundat9/11when
25theTwinTowerswentdown,Jehovah'sWitnesseswereinvited
26actuallytogoinandhelppersonsbysharingscriptures
27withthem.
28
29Q.Now,ifthecircumstanceisthattheyoungperson
30allegesthattheywereabusedbyamemberofthe
31congregationbutnotamemberoftheirownfamily,and
32againyou,astheelder,arepersuaded,totallypersuaded,
33thatthepersonistellingthetruth,whatdoyoudothen?
34A.Yes
35
36Q.Theassumptionbehindit,ofcourse,isthatthe
37allegedabuserisarisktoothers.Whatdoyoudo?
38A.That'scorrect,yes.Sothereisaprocessand
39Ithinkatthemomentweareintheprocessofadjusting
40someofourpolicies,sothat'swhyitisagoodtimefor
41thisRoyalCommission.Butdefinitelyitbecomesobvious
42thatweneedtoinformsome,weneedtoputrestrictionson
43thatpersonastoanytypeofassociationwithminors,and
44ifapersonisgenuinelyinnocent,theyarenotdoingthis,
45theyshouldnotmindthefactthattheycancleartheir
46namebynotbeinginvolvedatallwithdealingwith
47children.

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1
2YourHonour,couldIjustmentionasareminder,you
3see,Jehovah'sWitnesses,becausewerespectthefamily
4unit,wedon'thaveseparateSundayschools,wedon'trun
5youthcampsseparately,sowebelievethatthingsshouldbe
6donewithinthefamily.Butthespiritualhelpthatwecan
7give,andtryingtoprotect,avoidingcontactwithsomeone
8whoisaccusedwithminors,isalittleeasierforus
9becausewedon'thavethoseyouthgroup,separatetype
10arrangements.
11
12THECHAIR:Doesanyoneelsehaveanyquestions?
13
14MSDAVID:Yes,yourHonour.
15
16<EXAMINATIONBYMSDAVID:
17
18MSDAVID:Q.Thankyou,MrJackson.IamMsDavidand
19Irepresent[BCG].Areyoufamiliarwith[BCG]'scase?
20A.Iamsorry,Iamnot,no.Ihaven'tlivedin
21Australiafor36years,andIhaven'tcertainlyhad
22achancetolookthroughthefiles.
23
24Q.[BCG]wasoneofthewitnessstatements,shegave
25evidenceatthisCommission.Haveyouhadtheopportunity
26toreadherevidenceortolookatherstatement?
27A.Ihaven't,I'msorry.ThereasonIcameherewasto
28careformyailingfather,andthathastakenalotofmy
29time.Plus,Iwasn'tawareofthefactthatIwouldbe
30calledbeforetheCommission.
31
32Q.Iunderstandthat,MrJackson,butdoyounotthink
33thatitisimportantandIappreciateyourownpersonal
34circumstances,anditisnotacriticism.Doyou
35appreciatethatitisveryimportantforpeopleinsuch
36seniorpositionsasyourstoreallyhaveagood
37understandingoftheperspectiveofasurvivorofabuseas
38[BCG]is?
39A.Iagreewiththatcomment,andletmesay,
40Iempathise.Idon'tknowthedetailsofwhathappenedto
41thepersonyourepresent,butIcertainlyempathisewith
42whatevertragedyheorshehashadtoface.
43
44Q.Butyouagreethatunlessyourorganisationorganises
45someresearchorstudyintotheplightofpeoplesuchas
46[BCG],youwillneverreallyunderstandhowtheprocesses
47youhaveinplaceaffectthem?

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1A.Thatisavalidcomment.
2
3Q.Atthisstage,wouldyouagreethatyouhavenot
4reallyundertaken,ororganisedtoundertake,anysuch
5researchorstudiesintotheexperienceofpeople,young
6peopleorpeopleofanyage,thathavebeenabusedwithin
7theorganisation?
8A.Thatisalittlehardformetosay,togive
9adefinitiveanswer.Withintheparametersofhowwe
10normallydoresearchforourpublications,andsoon,and
11thefactthatourservicedepartmentsarehandlingcases
12suchasyourclient,theyhaveconsideredalotofthe
13approachesthatwe'vetaken,andthat'swhywehavechanged
14things,andI'msurethepolicieshavechangedsincethe
15timethepersonyouarerepresentingwasactuallyhelpedor
16handled.
17
18Q.Justremainingonthatpoint,youareawarethat
19DrMonicaApplewhitegaveevidencebeforetheCommission?
20A.Iamaware,butIcertainlydidn'tgetachancetosee
21it.Iapologise.
22
23Q.Areyouawarethatshewasprovidedwithsome
24documentation,orsomewitnessstatements,fromthe
25Jehovah'sWitnesselders,butshewasnotprovidedwithany
26witnessstatementsfromthesurvivorsofabusethathave
27beenprovidedduringthecourseofthisproceedings?
28A.I'msorry,Ireallyamnotinapositiontosay
29anythingaboutit,becausecouldIjustexplain?As
30empatheticasIamtothecase,whatIwouldhopeforis
31thatattheendofthisCommission,thosewhohavehadfar
32moreexperiencethanIhaveinthissubjectwillbegiving
33recommendationstotheGoverningBody.
34
35Q.Iappreciatethat,andIcertainlyhavenotedwhatyou
36havesaidinyourevidencetoday.Ijustwanttomakethe
37point:canyouunderstandhowpeoplelike[BCG],whohave
38hadnothingbutjustreallyverytraumaticexperiences,
39feelveryconcernedwhentheyfeelthattheirvoicesare
40notbeinglistenedtoatallbytheseniormembersofyour
41organisation?
42A.Iwouldbeverydisappointedifthat'sthecase,and
43certainlyIwouldhateforthatimpressiontobegivento
44thepersonyouarerepresenting.
45
46Q.Andsoinyourefforttoensurethatinthefuturethe
47processeswillbereviewedtoensurethattheperspective

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1oftheabusedpersonisgivenproperheed,doyouthinkit
2wouldbeagoodideaforyourorganisationtoactually
3conductsomesortofresearch?
4A.Ithinkthemoreinformationwecanget,thebetter,
5becauseallofusaretryingtodealwithaveryhorrific
6problem,andanyamountofinformationwecangetwouldbe
7beneficial.
8
9Q.Ijustwanttomakethepointhere,it'savery
10horrificproblem,buttheproblemsthat[BCG]andothers
11likeherhaveexperiencedarecompoundedbytheir
12experienceshavingtogothroughtheprocesseswithinyour
13owncongregation.SowhatI'msayingis,itisauniversal
14problem,buttherearespecificissuesthatclearlyjust
15relatetohowtheJehovah'sWitnesseshavebeendealing
16withit.IguesswhatI'msuggesting,howimportantitis
17thatitbeareviewthathasspecificregardtoyour
18processes.
19A.Itakeyourpoint.Itisavalidpoint.
20
21Q.Ontheissueof[BCG],Iknowyouarenotawareofher
22case,butIwilljustverybrieflygiveanoverview,having
23regardtotryingnottotaketoomuchtime.Shemade
24acomplaint.Initially,becauseoftheonewitnessrule,
25itwasnotaccepted.Ultimately,onanappealandwith
26aconfession,therewasanacceptanceofhercomplaint.
27Sheessentiallydidnotmakeafullcomplainttothe
28authoritiesuntilaftersheleftthecongregation,Ithink
29approximately15yearslater.Theabusewasbyherfather.
30
31Intheinterim,approximatelysevenyearsaftershe
32wasinitiallyabused,shelearnedthatherfather,[BCH],
33hadbeenreinstatedbackintothechurch.Thatisavery
34shorthistory,butuponthatevent,shewrotean
35impassioned,fivepagelettertotheheadofficein
36Australiaaboutherpositionandsoughthelp.Whatshe
37alsosoughtwasanassurancethatthematterwouldbe
38handled.Shewasleavingitabsolutelyherissuewas
39entirelythisisadevoutyoungJehovah'sWitnesswoman.
40ShewasleavingitinthecareoftheJehovah'sWitness
41Churchtodosomething.Shewrotealetter.Shesaid,
42"Now,Icanonlyleavethematterinyourhandsandpray
43Jehovahdirectstheoutcome,whateveritmaybe",butshe
44imploredheadoffice,toBethel,nottoignoretheletter
45andtodosomethingabouttheterriblesituation.She
46explainedabouthersuicideattempt.Sheexplainedthe
47devastationtoherandtohersisters,whowerealso

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1abused.
2
3Whatwassentbacktoherwasaletter,andifwe
4couldlook,please,attenderbundletab30
5A.Yes,Ihavethathere.
6
7Q.Thiswasaftersevenyears.[BCG]hasgivenevidence
8thataftershemadethecomplaint,shedidnotreceiveany
9assistanceorcertainlysufficientsupport,oreven
10scripturalsupport.Butifyoucouldlookatthatletter,
11youcanseethatitsays,firstly:
12
13"AlwaysThrowYourBurdenonJehovah."
14
15Canyouseethatinthesecondparagraph?
16A.Inthesecondparagraph,yes,Ican.
17
18Q.Shewasalsotold"TheheartwarmingprayerofDavid
19isappropriatewhereheentreatedJehovahtopreservehis
20tearsinhis'skinbottle'."
21A.Icanseethat.
22
23Q.Shehasgivenevidencetotheeffectthatshefelt
24silencedbywhatshewastold.Andshealsosaidshewas
25essentiallyadvised,ifyougotothethirdparagraph:
26
27WithJehovah'shelpandyourownefforts,
28youcanlookforwardtothenewworldof
29peace.
30
31Shewasreallygivennosolacetodealwithwhatwasgoing
32tocontinuetobeverypainfulforherinthisworld;do
33youagreewiththat?Readthroughthatletter.
34A.Yes,andthisisthefirsttimeI'veseentheletter.
35Myapologies.ButIwouldagreewithyouthatifthisis
36theonlyhelpshegot,certainly,thatisnotenough.But,
37asIsaid,Idon'tknowthecase.Whathelpdidtheelders
38giveherpersonally?Whatarethecircumstances?But
39Iagreewithyou,somethingfarmorethanaletterlike
40thiswouldberequiredtohelpher.
41
42Q.Doyoualsoappreciatethatstrictrelianceonjust
43givingscripturalguidancetosomeonewhohassuffered
44extremetraumacaninfactresultinanevenmoredamaging
45outcomeforthatparticularperson?Doyouacceptthat?
46A.WhatIacceptisthatsometimeswhenaletteris
47written,itisveryhardtoconveythespiritbehindthe

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1letter.Icertainlywouldexpect,asamemberofthe
2GoverningBody,thatanyonewritingaletterfromabranch
3woulddosointhespiritofloveandconcern.So
4perhapsbutIdoadmitthatifsomeonereadthis,they
5perhapscouldnotseethatloveandconcern.
6
7Q.Wouldyouacceptthatbywhatshehassaidinher
8letter,whichwas"nowIcanonlyleavethematterinyour
9hands"anditisafivepageletterthatthereisnot
10enoughtimetogothroughclearlyherenow,butthroughout
11thatlettersheisseekingassistance,guidance,help.She
12hastoldyouaboutthetraumashehasexperienced.But
13thereisarealduty,isn'tthere,todosomethingabout
14theoverallwellbeingofapersonsuchas[BCG]?
15A.Iagreewithwhatyousaid.Theyneedfarmorethan
16justoneletter.
17
18Q.Anddoyouagreethatgiventhespecialnatureofthe
19congregation,asIthinkyouhavesaidbefore,thatitis
20notjustacaseofacongregationwherepeopleturnupand
21gotochurch,itisafamilythereis,therefore,aneven
22greaterdutywithinthatfamilytoensurethatpeoplelike
23[BCG]arecaredforinacomprehensiveway?
24A.Iagreetotallywithyou,probablymoresothanyou
25realise.Eachsheepinthecongregationissomeonethat
26needstobecaredforandloved.Ifinditvery,veryhard
27tobelievethatthisistheonlyhelpthatwasgivento
28her,andif,infact,thatwasthecase,myheartgoesout
29toherandcertainlyweneedtomakesurethatmorehelpis
30giventhanthis.
31
32Q.IjustwanttocomebacktothepointImadebefore,
33orthequestionsthatIaskedyoubefore,inrelationto
34ensuringthattherewassomeresearchdoneforexample,
35DrApplewhitecameheretoreallysaythattheeducation
36programwasagoodoneandperhapsbetterthansomeothers,
37buttherewasnoresearchtodemonstratehoweffective,in
38fact,theJehovah'sWitnessprogramwas.Andagain,
39Iapologiseforthelengthofmyquestion,butI'mtrying
40togettoapoint,whichisthatitisreallydisheartening
41forthesurvivorsthatevidencefrompeoplesuchas
42DrApplewhite,withoutanyreferencewhatsoevertothe
43victims'experience,suggeststothemthatthereasonfor
44engagingexpertsistoinfactrather,ifIcansayitis
45moretodowiththereputationoftheJehovah'sWitnesses
46thananyrealattempttogettoadeepunderstandingof
47theirexperience.

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1A.Icertainlyhopethatisnotthecase,andthat
2certainlywasnottheintentofit.Soplease,beassured
3thatweareinterestedintheindividualssuchasthe
4clientthatyouarerepresenting.AndmayItakethis
5opportunity,Idon'tknowyourclient,butplease,could
6youconveyanexpressionofmyloveandconcernand
7reassureherthatobviouslyshehashadanopportunityto
8speakabouthowshefeels,andhopefullythiswillhelpthe
9policiesandprocedurestoimprove.
10
11Q.Ijustwanttonowgotosomethingalittlebitmore
12technical.Ifwecangototenderbundletab120at
13page72.Ijustwanttoaskyou,itreferstheretothe
14"testimonyofyouths",underparagraph37,wherewe're
15lookingatevidencetoestablishwrongdoing,andjusthow
16theJehovah'sWitnesseswouldviewthetestimonyof
17ayouth.
18A.Mmmhmm.
19
20Q.Inotethatitsayshere:
21
22Thetestimonyofyouthsmaybeconsidered;
23itisuptotheelderstodeterminewhether
24thetestimonyhastheringoftruth.
25
26Inrelationtothat,firstly,howwouldyoudefineayouth?
27A.Mmmhmm.
28
29Q.Areyouabletoassist?
30A.Assomeonestillinthefamilyarrangementunderthe
31legalage,butperhaps,inthiscontext,I'msureitmeans
32probablysomeoneyounger.
33
34Q.Istheresomedoubtaboutthetestimonyofyouth,that
35youwouldn'tacceptthat,itwouldcarrylessweight,
36perhaps,thanthetestimonyofanadult?I'mjusttrying
37tounderstandwhatthebasisforthatis.
38A.Thankyouverymuchforaskingthequestion.Itis
39averygoodquestion.MayIjustmention,thisisinthe
40contextofgeneraldisputesorthingsthatmaybehandled.
41CouldIgiveyouanexamplethatisnotrelatedtothe
42Commission.Itcouldbe,say,forexample,amotherand
43afatherdecidetoseparate,thereisadivorce,andnow
44thechildrenmaybethemotherhasprimedthechildrento
45saycertainthingsaboutthefatherinordertogetcustody
46ofthechild.Now,ofcourse,Jehovah'sWitnessesarenot
47involvedwithdecidingifparentshowtheydodivorce,

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1andsoon,but,yousee,inacaselikethat,inthe
2testimonyofachild,youwouldhavetotakeinto
3considerationinthatsituationwhetherornottheywere
4influencedbyoneoftheparentsorotherwise.It'sjust
5onlyacautiontomakesurethattheevidenceiscredible.
6ButmayIstress,thisisageneralprincipleacrossall
7thetypesofthingsthatwe'rehandling.
8
9THECHAIR:Q.CanIjustunderstandI'mnotquite
10sureI'munderstanding.Wouldn'titbethecasethatyou
11wouldhavetoconsidertheevidenceofanyonetodetermine
12whetherithadtheringoftruth,whethertheywere
13ayouth,childoradult?What'sthedifference?
14A.Thatistrue,yourHonour.Thatistrue.
15
16Q.Well,whyareyouthssingledoutinthedocument?
17A.Well,forastart,couldIjustsay,withregardto
18sexualabuse,we'vealreadymadethisstatementthatthe
19childwouldbebelieved.Butinthesegeneralprinciples
20thatItriedtohighlightwithregardtoadivorceorsome
21otherthings,perhapsachildwhoisdependentupon
22aparentmaybeinfluencedinsomewaybythem.
23
24Q.Sothisisheretomarkouttheriskthatsomeone's
25evidencemightbeinfluencedbyanotherperson,including
26anadult;isthat
27A.That'scorrect,yourHonour,yes.Andit'sonly
28areminder.It'sinnowaydesignedtosaythatchildren
29cannotgiveevidence.
30
31THECHAIR:Verywell.
32
33MSDAVID:Q.Giventhatyouhavecategorisedthe
34testimonyofyouths,thetestimonyofchildrenthe
35testimonyofchildrenisnotmentionedatallthere,so
36Iamjustconcernedastowhetherthetestimonyofchildren
37wouldhaveevenlesserweightbecauseoftheageofachild
38andperhapstheirvulnerabilitytoinfluence.
39A.I'mnotquitesureofyourquestion,I'msorry.This
40isjustinthecontextoflikeyouwillseeinthenext
41bulletpoint,itmentionsthetestimonyofunbelieversand
42disfellowshippedordisassociatedones,itsays"mayalso
43beconsidered".So,again,ifsomeonehasdisassociated
44themselves,perhapstheyhaveagrudgeagainstsomeonein
45theorganisation,butifthispersoniscredibleandgiving
46awitness,theycouldgiveatestimony.Soitisjust
47givingsomegeneralguidelines,commonsense,noustype

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1things,tothosewhoarehandlingthesecases.Butinno
2wayisitdesignedtostop
3
4THECHAIR:Q.Iwasgoingtoaskyouaboutthatnext
5bulletpoint,butyoutookustoit.Itseparatesoutthe
6testimonyofunbelieversanddisfellowshippedor
7disassociatedones.Itsays"itmaybeconsideredbutit
8mustbeweighedcarefully".Itsuggeststoanoutsider
9thatwhatthedocumentisdoingisexpressinganeedfor
10extracautionwhenit'stheevidenceofanunbelieveras
11opposedtoabelieverthatisbeingconsidered.Isthat
12acorrectreadingofthedocument?
13A.Thereadingofthedocumentissayingthatsomeonewho
14doesn'tagreewithorfeelthesamewaywedoaboutthe
15scripturesperhapsmaytakeadifferentviewpointon
16certainthingsforexample,thematteroflying.You
17see,Jehovah'sWitnessesendeavourtobetruthfuland
18presentfactsinatruthfulmanner.Someonewhoisnota
19Witnessmayhavenodifficultiesatallabouttelling
20alie.I'mnotsaying,yourHonour,thatJehovah's
21Witnessesareperfect,butthat'sareminderthatthese
22onesperhapscouldmakeafalsestatement.
23
24Q.Somyassumptioniscorrect,thatthedocumentis
25saying,"Bemorecarefulwiththeevidenceofunbelievers
26thanyouwouldbewiththeevidenceofbelievers";isthat
27right?
28A.That'swhatitsays,yes,yourHonour.
29
30MSDAVID:Q.Tobeclearontheissueofthetestimony
31ofachild,again,isthereanagethatyoumightdefine
32achildcomparedwithayouthdoesitmakethat
33distinction?Isthereanyagecategoryorsomecriteria
34thatyouwoulduse?
35A.I'msorry,IwishIcouldansweryourquestion,but
36IthinkthatgoestopeoplemorequalifiedthanIam.
37
38Q.Justcomingtothat,wouldthatbeanareathatyou
39wouldreviewinthecontextorinrelationtoany
40wrongdoing,butparticularlyinrelationtoobviouslythe
41mattersinissuehere,inrelationtothetestimonyof
42youths,becausedoyouagreethatthatcouldverymuch
43confuseanelderwhotookthatliterallytobeginwith
44alevelofscepticismaboutthetestimonyofyouth?
45A.Yourpointiswelltaken,andthatiswhyweupdate
46thisbookfromtimetotimewhenwesee,perhaps,
47inadequaciesinit.

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1
2Q.Andthat,readasawhole,itmight,byomitting
3referencetoachild,makethereaderconsider,well,what
4isthestatusoftheevidenceofachild,doesithaveany
5valueatall?
6A.Mmmhmm,theyareallvalidpoints.
7
8Q.Justgoingtothepreviouspageofthatsamedocument,
9whenyouwereansweringquestionsearliertocounsel
10assistingandhisHonour,youclearlyseemedopentothe
11ideathatperhapspriortothejudicialcommitteeitmight
12beanopportunityforwomentobeinvolvedinthat
13preliminary,ifIcouldsay,investigativestage.I'mjust
14comingdowntothepointwhereitsaystheremustbetwoor
15threeeyewitnesses,notjustpeoplerepeatinghearsay
16Ijustseethatifyoulookatthatpointthere,thatthere
17mustbetwoorthreeeyewitnesses,notjustpeople
18repeatinghearsay,youwouldreallyhavetoformalise
19aprocesswherebyifanabusedpersonspoketo,for
20example,acoupleoffemalesisters,thatthatwouldn't
21thenjusttakeonthecharacterofhearsayevidence.Do
22youunderstandthepointI'mmakingthere?
23A.Iunderstandyourpoint,andyes.
24
25Q.IguesswhatIamsayingisthatwhenyouarelooking
26atpolicies,doyouagreethatitwouldbeworthyof
27ensuringthatthatdidnotperhapsconfuseanelder
28attemptingtointerpretthispolicythatinfactitwould
29diminishthevalueofinvolvingwomenatthatpoint?
30A.Itisagoodpoint,andletmesay,we'realways
31interestedintryingtoimprovewhateverwecan.
32
33Q.Justcomingbacktothescriptures,clearly,as[BCG]
34wasaverydevoutyoungJehovah'sWitness,theimportance
35ofensuringthatwhateverscripturalguidanceadevout
36Jehovah'sWitnesssurvivorisgiven,itjustcan'tcome
37fromaonesizefitsallscripturalpackage?
38A.Mmmhmm.
39
40Q.Doyouagree?
41A.Iagreetotally.Idoagreetotally.
42
43Q.Thatitmustbetemperedbyhavingrealexperts
44considerhowayoungperson,like[BCG],mightinternalise
45certainscripturesinawaythatisultimatelyquite
46destructive?
47A.Mmmhmm,yes,Iagree.

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1
2MSDAVID:Thankyou.
3
4THECHAIR:Doesanyoneelsehaveanyquestions?
5
6MRTOKLEY:No.
7
8MRBANNON:No,yourHonour.
9
10THECHAIR:MrStewart,doyouhaveanyquestions?
11
12MRSTEWART:No,Idon't,yourHonour.
13
14THECHAIR:Verywell.Thatcompletesyourevidence,sir.
15Thankyouverymuchforyourtimetoday.Youarenow
16formallyexcusedfromyoursummons.
17
18THEWITNESS:Thankyou.
19
20<THEWITNESSWITHDREW
21
22THECHAIR:MrStewart,Ithinkwehavemadedirectionsin
23relationtosubmissions;isthatright.
24
25MRSTEWART:Yes,yourHonour.Twothings.One,in
26relationtothedirections,thoseweremadeaweekagoon
27thebasisoffourweeksforsubmissionsandfourweeks
28thereafter.Giventhatwehavehadthisevidencetoday,
29aweeklater,andthat
30
31THECHAIR:No.
32
33MRSTEWART:DrApplewhite'sreportisstilltocome
34
35THECHAIR:No.
36
37MRSTEWART:Iwasgoingtoaskwhether
38
39THECHAIR:No,wewillleavethedirectionsinplace.It
40isimportant,likeitiswithallmatters,thatweensure
41thatwedisposeofthemasefficientlyaspossible.I'm
42notpreparedtoday,byreasonofthefactthatwehavehad
43thisfurtherevidence,tovarythedirections.
44
45MRSTEWART:AsyourHonourpleases.
46
47THECHAIR:If,however,therearecircumstancesthat

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1emergedownthetrack,thenIwon'tbesohardastosay
2therecanneverbeanapplication,butnottoday.
3
4MRSTEWART:AsyourHonourpleases.
5
6THECHAIR:Verywell.
7
8MRSTEWART:Thentheonlyremainingissue,inthe
9interveningweek,afurtherdocumenthascometolight
10whichreallyjustsitsinthesequenceofcorrespondence
11relatingtocorrespondencetoAllBodiesofEldersand
12Iwouldliketohaveleavetotenderit.
13
14THECHAIR:ShouldImarkitseparately?
15
16MRSTEWART:Itshouldbemarkedseparately,yourHonour.
17
18THECHAIR:Iwillmarkitexhibit29034.
19
20MRSTEWART:Itisaletterdated10October2002from
21WatchtowerBible&TractSocietyofAustraliatoAllBodies
22ofEldersinAustralia.
23
24EXHIBIT#29034LETTERDATED10/10/2002FROMWATCHTOWER
25BIBLE&TRACTSOCIETYOFAUSTRALIATOALLBODIESOFELDERS
26INAUSTRALIA
27
28MRSTEWART:ThatisallIhave.
29
30THECHAIR:Ifthereisnothingfurther,Iwilladjourn.
31
32AT3.13PMTHECOMMISSIONWASADJOURNEDACCORDINGLY
33
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36
37
38
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40
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