Thusness's Discussions On Pure Presence 2004-2007

Forum Topic: lame question on meditation
Longchen: 02 December 2004 08:23 AM
Hi,
Besides the Jhanas (Editor: Jhanas are the eight stages of mundane meditative absorptions
taught by Buddha), have you experience pure empty Presence in a state of no thought? That is
the true state of a Being. It is beyond the mind, beyond concepts.
This pure Presence is all pervading, yet void at the same time. In my experience, the Jhanas are
different. Jhana's are like 'looking outward' in a meditation, pure Presence is 'looking inwards'.
I can't describe it very well.
Pure presence can best be felt when a person is at the moment free from desires. Pure presence
is like the ray that emits its properties into the mind. The properties of the pure presence form
your personality.
Longchen: 03 December 2004 12:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sangha:

Jhana is attained with no expecting, with no wanting, with no not wanting, with no
unawareness, with no thoughts, with samadhi, with mindfulness. Only a mindful mind is
a ready mind for meditation.
Jhana starts from within, it is a state of focus mind. It is still impermanance. But is is free
from craving. A craving (aversion and attached) mind will feel discomfort when
attempting to enter Jhana.
When one enters into Vipassana after Jhana, it is a process of noting rather than
thoughts. We need to even note of defilement thoughts.
When one is in 4th Jhana, he is also in equanimity, or what u called Upekka. a state of no
craving, no happy, no sad, no hatred. And left with one pointiness.
"Pure Pressence"? Are you referring to Nibanna? The Buddha's natural that everyone
has?
Buddha ever said, even when He was in 8th Jhana, there are still 2 things available, which
is perception and feeling. This means that Jhana is not Nibbana.
Hi Sangha,
I am in no position to say whether Pure presence is nibbana. I can only write from my own
experience and understanding.
This pure presence is called Rigpa in Tibetan Buddhism. I am not a Buddhist in this life, but I
was a Tibetan Monk of Nyingma school several lifetimes ago. That is why I still have a lot of
interest in Buddhism.
About Rigpa, when we experience it. It is formless and empty and at the same time infinite and
all pervading. It is NOT BLISS. Bliss is a samadhi state but it is not the true nature yet, it is still
a state in the mind. I have bliss experiences also, in fact i have then now quite often outside of
meditation also.
Rigpa is a presence of 'yourself' that is connect to everything in the universe. That is probably
why the Buddha say that there is 'no self'. All is connect to all in the Dharmakaya. Rigpa is a
part of the Dharmakaya. When in the state, there is no separation into you or me... We are all
one thing which cannot be described.
However, I must say that even now, while reading this, we are already the rigpa. We do not
realise this is because we THINK we are just the mind/personality. The mind/personality is a
REFLECTION from rigpa. It is not the true self. If you understand what I am write, you may
get a sudden awakening/realisation. And if the realisation is deep enough, your viewpoint or
way of seeing the world will change.
Just my 2 cents...
Thusness: 03 December 2004 09:01 PM
Hi LongChen,
Even the "inner" and "outer" are production of the analytical mind. Only the mind requires such
division, concepts and thoughts. The Presence has no room for all these. It works through
naturalness and directness. Too short to have time and too simple to have thought.
However even when one experiences this pure sense of existence, due to latent karmic
tendencies, the mind will still attempt to create a formless-transparent-like entity ('I')
experiencing "things". In reality there is no 'I'.
The 'Blueness' of the blue sky isn't 'I'.

Remain Silence and in Presence, all things are in their entirety.
No 'I' is required.
This itself is sufficient.
Happy Journey.
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for your profound explanation.
May I ask ... how do one remain in Presence all the time. Does it require the clearing of all
karmic tendencies (samcaras/samskara).
I understand that the Presence is there all the time. Is it possible to be in presence even when
engaged in say a conversation with another person?
Currently, switching to witness state is only possible when I am not engaged in any
conversation.
Thanks
Hi Long Chen,
Yes it is possible. But as much as I would not like to say, there is no what, where, when, why
and how. Sounds senseless but it is true. These are what Naturalness is not.
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because to
the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to continue
penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own DEATH. The death of
the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and analytical
mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing. Here karmic tendency arises and
ceases as it is, no effort to struggle is made.
This is the time effortless knowing arise. A complete clarity of ISness manisfesting as pure
Presence.
Seek deep into the depth of our own self, there is always this Will, Effort..etc. This
Unwillingless to let go, to be.
Simply put, it is this that separates.
Lastly try not to find a sit in the body. The true nature fills all space. Creating a boundary for
What that is neither within nor without will eventually prove futile. Presence finds itself in
Otherness. The body has created the illusion of 'inward' and divides. We have engaged
ourselves in too much analysis and lost our intuitiveness and directness. Since u have
experienced the pure Presence, sense the 'I' that holds and let go immeidately.
Presense always IS.
Nice Chat
Hi Thusness,
Got it.
You are indeed enlightened.
Thanks

Presence...
Search for it, loses it and cycle within the mind

Let things be.... rest in presence.
Thusness: 11 December 2004 11:39 AM
When things are "be"? What is it?
thinking (Source:
Forum Topic:
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&actio
n=display&thread=1104745015 ~ Closing Gaps Spiritual
Discussion Forum)
Omsairam: Thread Started on Jan 3, 2005, 4:36am
God does not think
To me it appears that God does not think.It has perfect knowledge and thus it uses the
knowledge to
act instantly i.e in the smallest fraction of time imaginable.
Thinking is a function of the mind.God exceeds the mind and is not using any material
means and is existing by itself.
Thinking takes time. If God thinks(and in which languge will it think!) then He takes time
to act which is not possible because it wills million of acts in the smallest fraction of time.
I conclude that God does not think. It acts when required in perfect knowledge
Simpo: Reply #1 on Jan 3, 2005, 8:44am
Hi Omsairam,
From my understanding, everything is in fact all happening in the Eternal Now. We, as
minds, are like individual points of locations on a canvas of the eternal now. .. As such
there is no need for a smallest fraction of time imaginable for 'GOD' to execute his
actions. Again... you see God as something separated from you...
You are trying to box 'God' into a concept based on the linear mental reasoning.
You amazes me, seriously. You are such an aware person and yet you trying to reason the
Unfathomable, which the thinking mind is a subset of. Is this possible?
Have you heard of this famous saying by Lao Tze...

The Tao that can be expresses is not the eternal Tao;
The name that can be defined is not the unchanging name.
Omsairam: Reply #2 on Jan 3, 2005, 9:06am
hi Simpo,
i know that God is bigger than every idea of the Human mind...
But I love thinking of Him so much, that I keep thinking of Him...It is sheer love which
makes me think, because while God is bigger than any idea He is still not that big that I
cannot love Him...
The instrument(mind) I have is severly limited...it cannot think beyond

time/space/causation and even in time/space/causation makes mistakes...
I am aware of the limitation, but the thrill I get when thinking of God cannot be
described in words.
Quote:
Hi Omsairam,
From my understanding, everything is in fact all happening in the Eternal

Now. We, as minds, are like individual points of locations on a canvas of
the eternal now. .. As such there is no need for a smallest fraction of time
imaginable for 'GOD' to execute his actions. Again... you see God as
something separated from you...
You are trying to box 'God' into a concept based on the linear mental
reasoning.
You amazes me, seriously. You are such an aware person and yet you
trying to reason the Unfathomable, which the thinking mind is a subset of.
Is this possible?
Have you heard of this famous saying by Lao Tze...
The Tao that can be expresses is not the eternal Tao;

The name that can be defined is not the unchanging name.

Dear Omsairam,
Do you practice Bhakti Yoga?
Omsairam: Reply #4 on Jan 3, 2005, 9:29am
Hi Simpo,
I practise Love yoga...Scriptures tell of karma/Bhakthi and so forth...but for me it is
Love and Only Love...U can give it any name u want ...
If u see my other thread on Love-Dual aspect, I have put forth my idea that I believe in
approaching the absolute love of God carrying all my limitation with me, because I
know that One day He will Himself make my love for Him pure and perfect...
I do not believe in relative-relative love but relative-absolute love...
For me there is no place/time/circumstance/method for meditation
Tell me can a mother who loves her child stop thinking of the child...u cant say u must
think of your child at 3:30 am in the morning doing X yoga
Similiarly I love God and it cant be that I must love Him 3:30 am with a particular
yoga...I shall always love Him,
and when it becomes too intense start meditating, irrespective of the time/place
True love is ageless/timeless and independent of everything. To love god I need no

time/place/circumstance...i love Him as spontaneuosly as I breath..
Ok if someone tells me to forget Him for Half an hour in a day I can try!!
Quote:
Dear Omsairam,
Do you practice Bhakti Yoga?
Thusness: Reply #7 on Jan 3, 2005, 10:04pm
Hi omsairam,
You are such a sincere seeker but do not get trap into too much analysis.
When one first experienced Total Presence, how clear and vivid it was.
But when the experience descended into thought-level, It became "I am I", the name of
Yaweh.
And later a metaphysical Self, either way up above or deep down in us.
Eventually the 'I' becomes a tiny conscious being living inside our body seeking union
with God that is DEEP down in us.
And the beginning of all confusions and divisions.
When we made progress by taking the 'I' out for a moment and transform "I am I" into
"Amness",
subject and object temporarily becomes one.
Then We begin to wonder, how does God get slip outside and become IT?
Has it always been an "IT" and never was an enclosed "I"?
Was it always Suchness, Thusness, Isness?
If you like thinking, think about it until you exhault the entirety of your thinking
mechanism.
Until you are willing to let go. Completely let go of the illusionary 'I' and see our true
nature.
The mind travels to and fro in an unbelievable speed,

playing multiple roles, one as You and the other as God.
It plays hide and seek as long as we continue to adopt the method of analysis.
Can the ultimate Subject be made an Object of observation?

God is within and without, it cannot be contained.
It is the current mode of thinking and understanding God that is at fault.

As long as Reality is concerned, it is the wrong tool to use.
Analysis is the way of comparison and measurement, it is dual.
The Luminous Light 'knows' not through analysis.
'Knowing' to the Msytic is not to make an object in mind and study it.
It is "knowing" through oneness, it is "knowing" through Beingness.
It is losing yourself and finding itself in otherness.
It is an entirely different art -- Merely reflecting and simply IS.
If we are resistant to the idea of dropping the 'How' and 'What',
then the path of faith and total submission towards God is preferred.
If we love God, do not analsye him, we are slaying him.
The mysterious gate is ever open in the HERE and NOW.

To experience in full, let go completely and leave not a trace of ourselves.
Thusness
Forum Topic: why does god not participate at lower levels (Source:
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=11039718
73 ~ Closing Gaps Spiritual Discussion Forum)
Omsairam: Thread Started on Dec 25, 2004, 5:51am

It(God) does not play in the lower planes of consciousness...it can aid man albeit to move
to higher planes of consciousness(i.e advance spiritually) and then reveal itself to man...
If God would liberate you now by descending to the lower planes of consciousness where
you currently are, then it would do injustice to all life everywhere because these life forms
are also at lower level and equally deserve liberation were you to get liberated...
God thus can be realized by moving up the planes of consciousness...(up up and away)...it
would not be through a downward movement of the divine.
any views?
NOTE: Longchen/Simpos understanding regarding this has changed since, please read
the last two paragraphs in http://www.closing-gaps.org/eternal-watcher.htm
Hi All,
This is how I understand it...

The bright star in the diagram represents the Source which is ourself as the deepest,
innermost essence.
There are many planes of consciousness that acts as lenses (as depicted in the diagram).
Each plane is a mindscreen. That is why when we meditate, we seems to be moving into
different layers. I believe these are call the jhana states in Buddhism. What we call the
higher self/soul are actually planes of consciosness above our normal waking states.
The planes of consciosness acts like differentiators and appears to 'encase' and draws the
attention of Pure Presence/awareness(Source Presence) to look at the 'contents' on each
particular layer. As such, when the awareness traverse down the planes of consciosness, it
gets more and more limitations. When it reaches the physical plane... we totally see
ourselves as separated from one another.
If seen from this viewpoint, God/Source is ultimately not separated from us. It is the
mindscreens/planes of consciosness that gave the illusions of separation. So there is no
separation, only obscuration. So Source does participate in the lower plane, because it is
our innermost self (the bright star).
We think it is separated because, there are many layers. Beyond our personality are yet
other layers... Imagine beyond our normal senses, thoughts and emotions, there are other
mindscreen/planes as well...
This is how I see it... I wish others can comment on it...
Thusness: Reply #5 on Jan 1, 2005, 9:35am
Dear omsairam,
From the tick of a clock to the tick of our thought,

God has not moved even a moment step away for us.
In the emptiness space of the consciousness to the content in the consciousness,

There is no Presence without God.
When things emerge from nothingness,

the mind 'sees' the 'somethingness' but misses the 'nothingness'.
Heard the sound but not the slience.
The ever grasping mind knows only the known and is unable to rest in the unknown.
Knows life but not death.
Sees God in light but not in darkness.
To such a mind, there are gaps and division and thus distancing itself from itself.
Let's not create unnessary conceptual thoughts, the mind is not lack of known concepts and
facts.
Let the mind rest and experience not knowing, non seeking and move not a step.
It is a lost art; it is also the great art of liberation.
Happy Journey and Wishing You a Happy New Year.
Thusness
Bob: Reply #6 on Jan 1, 2005, 9:44am
Hi Simpo,
Yes, your diagram and suppositions are correct, but I would like to emphasize a couple of
points.
All that exists is consciousness. That consciousness which we are not aware of, or do not
realize is unconsciousness to us. So the earth, the universe, the air, the waters, our bodies,
and so on, are composed of consciousness. The tiniest building blocks of nature which are
the eletrons are conscious. This means that humans are a multi-dimensional mass of
consciousness and the self within a a part of this mass of consciousness is the highest
aspect of it. So our whole body, the whole universe is consciousness and has flowing thru
it... ALL...THE TOTAL CONSCIOUSNESS EMANATING FROM THE
SOURCE....ALTHOUGH, WE HAVE NOT YET "REALIZED IT", OR MADE IT A
PART OF OUR CONSCIOUS SELF, which is the ego. So, our total self is both
consciousness and unconsciousness and is exactly the same as the Absolute Source, but as
mystics say, the darkness needs to be brought to Light. Which means we need to make the
unconscious part of ourselves conscious. And we do this thru knowledge and experience.
Jack is totally correct in saying that we will see God when we look in the mirror. God is
our body as well as our mind and soul. Nothing exists that is not God. God is not up there
some where in the sky...there is no up or down...
SELF IS OUR TOTAL BEING...OUR BODY, MIND AND SOUL...AND SELF IS ALL
OF ABSOLUTE BEING...GOD EMANATES ALL OF HIMSELF TO BE
REALIZED...We are the universe. The same conscious elements, the smallest particles
(electrons and atoms) makes up our beings.
bob
Hi Bob,
Thank you for the explanation. It is very thought-provoking.
I had once felt like I am a large part of the universe... it was an incredible bliss... but I was
also unable to really coordinate my body well as well..Haha
It made me wonder... can a person ever understanding all of the consciousness in all its
part ( electrons, atoms... all) while in a human form? Will the 'incredible voltage' fry the
human being's circuit? To be this Vastness and feeling all parts of it, is un-imaginable to
me... Can such a person ever function normally on this plane...
Today,
I went for qi-gong session (finally... am free enough to do that ) in the botanic gardens.
Trees all around... my consciousness gradually expand... The thoughts and impulses seems so
insignificant and tiny in the expansion ...
Suddenly.. it dawn upon me... we are the universe... The entire universe is consciousness! We
are the tree, Earth... everything...
It's so simple... yet so elusive.
Forum Topic: All there is is Presence

Longchen: 05 March 2005 11:06 PM
All there is are actually the all-pervading Presence. Our sense of self (ego) is actually attentions
focused (very rapidly) on many layers of thoughts and sensations. This is the matrix.
The layers are as follows:
Physical layer- attention/belief put to physical sensations(thought)
Mental layer- attention to mental thoughts
Emotional layer- cause by judging the mental thoughts
In addition, there is a storehouse where all images/belief of oneself is stored.
For example: we may have this image:
'I am smart.'
If the external world validates that this is true, the person feels happy.
If the external world appears to show that he is not, then he will not be happy and thus suffer.
Actually in the 'external world' nothing real happens, the response is totally within the person's
mind.
Beyond the encasement of all these layers of thoughts and sensation is just Pure
consciousness/Presence. Actually everything is the Pure consciousness. It is just that many
rapid attentions to thoughts and sensation create the sense of self.
An Eternal Now: 05 March 2005 11:57 PM
I've spoken to Thusness about this.
There is no point saying all is/are You, Presence, Reality.

It is only in the direct experience that you know it is true nature.
When you said sensation, images..etc, there is seperation and division. Precisely because the
experiences and theories you created are derived, therefore the moment to moment of existence
are not experienced in full, and pure consciousness as a separate layer is created, not
experienced directly. If you can experience yours directly and see condition arising, then you
have entered the stream.
Thusness: 06 March 2005 05:12 PM
Hi LongChen,
It is not that it is pointless to experience all as pure presence.

Your experience of "All there is are actually the all-pervading Presence" is most valuable and
sacred.
Nothing is more real and clear than IT -- The reality of All.
There is no doubt about it.
I am sure you have experienced 'Pure Presence' but I am equally sure that it escapes you in
daily life experiences.
Why is this so?
Because during the process of analysis we have unknowingly divided 'Pure Presence' from
sensation, thoughts, images, taste and forms..etc
and worst still we have made this a blueprint for us to 'see' and 'experience' the phenomenon
existence.
This unintentional re-enforcement of our karmic forces will prevent us from experiencing our
nature in full
and 'Pure Consciousness' will become a transparent like-substance hiding somewhere waiting
forever to be found.
This Pure Consciousnes as a 'transparent-formless-light' is an image created by thought, it is
not the true face of Pure Consciousness.
Do explore into the concept of Emptines and Conditional Arising of buddhism in detail if you
have time.
Thusness
Dear Thusness,
Thank you for your advice... it is most valid and helpful and I can see that 'habit' that you have
described.
I do have experiences of presence in the daily waking life... but there are also habitual patterns
as well. It will take time and fearlessness to fully stabilise. You know what i mean.
Also, I have psychically 'read' you and Xabir and are intuitively factored.
Thanks for the help.
Eternal Now,
When the pure, formless, clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous enters
the sphere of thoughts, the mind transforms the Presence into an 'ENTITY' that is pure,
formless,
clear, brilliance bright, boundless and luminous.
This entity, this something is the 'Self' added by a divided mind.
Without creating this 'center', this base, this something, a divided mind does not know how to
function. Because the thinking mind understands through measurement and comparison.
In buddhism, this 'Self' is extra and created. In reality it does not exist.
This is the wisdom to be awaken in order to see reality in its nakedness.
When this is clear, the stream always IS.
Hi LongChen,
The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty of consciousness is

temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial.
The 'Self' that is created over countless lives of attachment cannot be underestimated.
We are in almost helpless bondage that our perceptions are shaped and held in a sort
of hypnosis that we feel, think, experience and deduced our understandings from the
perspective of an 'I'. Thus analytical understanding derived from the glimpse of
the Pure Presence Reality will very quickly get distorted.
When Presence is experienced with the six sense doors shut,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AMness".
When Presence is experience with six sense doors widely open,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AM All".
However neither experience tells us the TRUE NATURE of Pure Presence.

Even the very sense of Realness, of Existence, of Life and Vividness is so strong,
due to the sense of 'I' there will be a sense of location somewhere,
and the true face of Pure Presence remains hidden.
The mind is just not used to knowing the absolutely nothing, non-local,
nowhere to be found yet pure, brillance bright and ever luminious.
It will locate, it will find, it will grasp.
There must come a time for the mind to let go of itself completely.
If we are bold enough to let go and enter into the world that is wordless,
labelless and thoughtless, and if this is substained, wisdom and insight will arise.
This wisdom is the extraordinary Clarity, Vividness and Realness, wholeness whole.
It is crystal clear filling all spaces and places.
Both in silence and in noise, in blankness and somethingness.
Those that experience the Pure Presence will appreciate this crystal clear reality.
This re-visting of Pure Presence will be thorough and entire.
There will be no doubt.
Buddhism Emptiness is deep and profound. Do go into it.
Happy Journey

quote:
Originally posted by Thusness:

Hi LongChen,
The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty of consciousness is

temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial.
The 'Self' that is created over countless lives of attachment cannot be underestimated.
We are in almost helpless bondage that our perceptions are shaped and held in a sort
of hypnosis that we feel, think, experience and deduced our understandings from the
perspective of an 'I'. Thus analytical understanding derived from the glimpse of
the Pure Presence Reality will very quickly get distorted.
When Presence is experienced with the six sense doors shut,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AMness".
When Presence is experience with six sense doors widely open,

Presence is experienced as a form of "I AM All".
However neither experience tells us the TRUE NATURE of Pure Presence.

Even the very sense of Realness, of Existence, of Life and Vividness is so strong,
due to the sense of 'I' there will be a sense of location somewhere,
and the true face of Pure Presence remains hidden.
The mind is just not used to knowing the absolutely nothing, non-local,
nowhere to be found yet pure, brillance bright and ever luminious.
It will locate, it will find, it will grasp.
There must come a time for the mind to let go of itself completely.
If we are bold enough to let go and enter into the world that is wordless,
labelless and thoughtless, and if this is substained, wisdom and insight will arise.
This wisdom is the extraordinary Clarity, Vividness and Realness, wholeness whole.
It is crystal clear filling all spaces and places.
Both in silence and in noise, in blankness and somethingness.
Those that experience the Pure Presence will appreciate this crystal clear reality.
This re-visting of Pure Presence will be thorough and entire.
There will be no doubt.
Buddhism Emptiness is deep and profound. Do go into it.
Happy Journey
Hi Thusness,
Your message feels of truth. Thanks for it. I will do as you advice.
Forum Topic: Cease your False Self and your True Self lives!
Longchen: 18 October 2005 09:11 PM
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Yes I have also heard previously that Buddhism's model (and maybe other mystical
traditions too) is similar to the findings on Quantum Physics.
Planes of consciousness? Not sure what you mean, but I know there are 8 Jhanas. Each
person's path is different according to their practises, but for me, my master transmit the
dharma of sudden transcendence, which means transcending the three worlds
instantaneously. That means it is without the need of going through different jhanas.
However, unfortunately not many have the high capacity to awaken to that dharma... I
heard there are quite many people of higher capacity, just by receiving the transmission
from my master or my dharma teacher, and receiving their blessings, they receive a
sudden awakening.
Hi Eternal Now,
I think the planes of consciousness roughly equates to the Jhana... perhaps there are some
differences. Different traditional have different ways of differentiating... some Western
mystical tradition even say that within a plane there are 12 subplanes... making up 144 levels.
As for sudden awakening, I think it is possible... Your master must be very capable in order to
do that. I also think that the awakening need not go through the Jhana... When I first expereince
pure awareness... I did not pass through all the Jhanas... This had been puzzling for me...
because I previously thought it must be 'above' all the jhanas. Now, I know... it is there all-
along in the here and now.
Actually, to say 'in the here and now'... is not exactly accurate. But, I can't think of a better way
to describe. The fact is, there is no past and no future, past and future are memories and
thoughts. Each moment is a Now... only thoughts give the impression of time.
Thusness: 20 October 2005 08:51 AM
Hi longchen,
It is ungraspable not because the Ultimate Object cannot be the subject of observation; but
rather there is really no such ultimate object hiding behind anywhere. A someone inside
somewhere is from the very beginning a mistake. True authenticity comes when we realized
that any form of centricity is illusionary.
To experience the Pure Presence of Isness, I AMness must completely dissolve. The Pure
Presence you experienced is non-local and has no-center. It becomes an I AM due to linear
mode of analysis. If you have time do explore into insight meditation and the essence of
Emptiness
Regards,
Thusness
Longchen: 20 October 2005 11:32 AM
quote:

Hi longchen,
It is ungraspable not because the Ultimate Object cannot be the subject of observation;
but rather there is really no such ultimate object hiding behind anywhere. A someone
inside somewhere is from the very beginning a mistake. True authenticity comes when we
realized that any form of centricity is illusionary.
To experience the Pure Presence of Isness, I AMness must completely dissolve. The
Pure Presence you experienced is non-local and has no-center. It becomes an I AM due
to linear mode of analysis. If you have time do explore into insight meditation and the
essence of Emptiness
Regards,
Thusness
Hi Thusness,
OK. Will do so.
I have a question that hopefully you can answer... if I Amness completely dissolves won't we
have difficulty relating to normal society?
BTW, nice to hear from you again.
Regards.
Hi Long Chen,
Nice to see you and Eternal Now too. As to your question whether one's enlightenment will
hinder oneself from relating in a normal society, I supposed not. For one that has arrived at the
fundamental ground, whatever role he assumes, whether as a monk, teacher, businessman or a
beggar, he remains free. When it comes to practical application, he will naturally know how to
harmonize and fuses completely with everything.
In Buddhism, No-Self is not a question of morality; it is a question of the true nature of the
phenomenon reality. From the marco universe to the quantum world of quarks, from time to
space, from body to consciousness, all exhibit this characteristic. Emptiness prevails
everywhere. Even right now at this moment, we witness the Emptiness truth in action -- the
moment ceases as it arises. There is no changing thing (Self), only change. Viewing things as
solid entities and categorizing them as 'this' or 'that' is due to the poverty of our thinking
mechanism, it is not reality.
The act of labeling will make 'things' appear solid and separated, to the extent that even when
we are dealing with the very essence of ourselves -- the pure awareness, we make it an 'I AM'.
'I AMness' is perhaps the furthest the Thinking-Mind can give way and it is never meant merely
as an expression for communication. We seek, find and attempt to locate it as if it is a solid
entity hiding somewhere. As long as this wrong way of 'seeing' persists, there will be
attachments and sufferings. This is the way it is; you cannot eliminate attachment with an 'I'.
Therefore the capacity to see by awakening the emptiness wisdom is especially important in
Buddhism.
Bare attention that is taught in insight meditation trains one to see without labeling, without a
layer of words. It presents us a new mode of experiencing reality as an ever changing
inseparable flux. Without this layer of thought, 'I' has no place to reside and slowly the bond of
'I' will loosen and subside. If the karmic condition ripens, the mysterious relationship between
the pure awareness and the phenomenon world will be revealed.
The experience of I AM is an intuitive experience of our naked consciousness. It is seeing

Consciousness face to face and touching Consciousness directly without in between thoughts.
But its Emptiness nature must be understood to progress further. I got to go now....do take care.
Thusness
Hi Thusness,
Thank you very much for your explanation. It is most important. I am most grateful.
After reading, what you wrote... I went to meditate.
Observing the thoughts that arises, there appears to be a relationship between

each thoughts. Occasionally, a desire to recall arises, a new thought will arise that does a recall.
But each moment seems to be a fresh moment. .. with no second and no past.
The continuity and the recall of thoughts and memories arises one after another... but there
appears to be NO ONE observing the thoughts. The observer is an impression... there is no
observer. The impression of a self appears to be due to the continuity and the recalling of
memories.
If this is correct... then the 'I' is but the impression caused by the continuity and recalling
ability.
This is accurate?
Kind regards and respect.
Longchen/simpo
Thusness: 21 October 2005 10:45 PM
Yes LongChen,
There is thinking but there is no thinker. Succession from one moment to another does not
require an I. The I prevents direct perception. This must be extended to the rest of the 5
senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). The experience of no-self must be thorough.
quote:

Yes LongChen,
There is thinking but there is no thinker. Succession from one moment to another does
not require an I. The I prevents direct perception. This must be extended to the rest of
the 5 senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). The experience of no-self must be thorough.
Hi Thusness,
Thank you so much.. Will do so.
For Buddha to spot the difference, his perception must have been razor-sharp and fast.
Hi LongChen,
Yes indeed. Buddha is so clear, precise and accurate. Such penetrating insight and clarity must
come from a mind that is completely free.
After experiencing the Emptiness nature of consciousness in all the six senses without labeling
and words (directly felt and intuitively experienced as in the case of "I AM" that u
experienced), do explore into the 18 dhatus and authenticate your intuitive experience with the
4 dharma Seals.
quote:

Hi LongChen,
Yes indeed. Buddha is so clear, precise and accurate. Such penetrating insight and clarity
must come from a mind that is completely free.
After experiencing the Emptiness nature of consciousness in all the six senses without
labeling and words (directly felt and intuitively experienced as in the case of "I AM" that
u experienced), do explore into the 18 dhatus and authenticate your intuitive experience
with the 4 dharma Seals.
Hi Thusness,
I will do so as you suggested.
Thanks again
Forum Topic: what Emptiness/sunyata means to you

An Eternal Now: 02 November 2005 12:36 PM
Quite a good article I found from a quite well known Western Dzogchen teacher, Lama Surya
Das.
http://www.dzogchen.org/teachings/talks/SustainAware10694.html
Sustaining Present Awareness
Tonight I'd like to talk about how to practice Dzogchen sky-gazing and the essential point of it.
I will introduce this by reading to you a poem, a pith-instruction from the first Jamgon Kontrul
Rinpoche, who lived 100 years ago. It is called "View and Meditation of the Great Perfection."
Jamgon Rinpoche was one of the greatest lamas of the last century, who helped spread the
Rim (nonsectarian practice) renaissance in Eastern Tibet.
There are many techniques to help us ease into Dzogchen practice, this naked awareness
practice called cutting through, seeing through, or sky-gazing. Techniques like breathing,
opening into the natural awareness, devotional practices, chanting, shouting P'et, and so
on. But don't forget-all of these are just like the doorway, the threshold at the door to
cross over, to return to the natural state. If and when we are in natural awareness, we
don't have to cross over. Then we don't have to turn the mind upon itself with the self-
inquiry question: Who or what am I? We don't have to do a devotional practice. We don't
have to surprise ourselves with P'et and awaken pure awareness. But when we are slightly
distracted it is very helpful to do those practices, which are like introductory practices to help
us come home again to the present awareness. But it is the present awareness that is crucial, is
primary. That's the main practice. That's the heart of the matter, the heart practice. That's what
this poem is about: That present awareness, which is the heart of the practice, and how to
maintain it.
View and Meditation of the Great Perfection
Homage to the Guru, the teacher.
The View and Meditation of Dzogchen can be explained in many, many ways, but simply
sustaining the essence of present awareness includes them all.
Your mind won't be found elsewhere.
It is the very nature of this moment-to-moment thinking.
Regard nakedly the essence of this thinking and you find present awareness, right where you
are.
Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?
Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality, no
observer, and nothing observed.
Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.
Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing anything in
particular.
Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not nothing.
Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.
As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness continuously
functions.
These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa-its emptiness and its cognizance (lucidity)-are
inseparable.
Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.
They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid,
buoyant.
Nothing whatsoever, yet Emaho!, everything is magically experienced.
Simply recognize this.
Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.
With constant, vigilant mindfulness, sustain this recognition of empty, open, brilliant
awareness.
Cultivate nothing else.
There is nothing else to do, or to undo.
Let it remain naturally.
Don't spoil it by manipulating, by controlling, by tampering with it, and worrying about
whether you are right or wrong, or having a good meditation or a bad meditation.
Leave it as it is, and rest your weary heart and mind.
The ultimate luminosity of Dharmakaya, absolute truth, is nothing other than the very nature of
this uncontrived, ordinary mind.
Don't look elsewhere for the Buddha.
It is nothing other than the nature of this present awareness.
This is the Buddha within.
There are innumerable Dharma teachings.

There are many antidotes to many different kinds of spiritual diseases.
There are many words in the Mahamudra and Dzogchen nondual teachings.
But the root, the heart of all practices is included here, in simply sustaining the luminous
nature of this present awareness.
If you search elsewhere for something better, a Buddha superior to this present awareness, you
are deluding yourself.
You are chained, entangled in the barbed wire of hope and fear.
So give it up! Simply sustain present wakefulness, moment after moment.
Devotion, compassion, and perfecting virtue and wisdom are the most important supportive
methods for completely fulfilling this naked, nondual teaching about present awareness, the
innate Dharmakaya.
So always devote yourself to spiritual practice for the benefit of others and apply yourself in
body, speech, and mind to what is wholesome and virtuous.
Sarva mangalam.
May all beings be happy!
This is the heart teaching of Mahamudra, of Dzogchen, of Zen, of all the nondual
teachings: Sustaining present awareness. Recognizing the Buddha-nature through the
present moment, this very moment of awareness. If it's awareness taking the form of
thinking, recognize the present awareness component of the thought. If you are
remembering the past, recognize the present awareness component of the memory.
You're not in the past. How could you be in the past? It is present awareness
remembering. If you feel distracted when remembering, bring the mind back to the
present awareness. You don't have to stop remembering. Recognize present awareness,
which is remembering. If you are dreaming, fantasizing about the future, about what you
are going to do when you leave here, how you are going to tell everybody how wonderful
it was and how great Dzogchen view and meditation is, that's fine-recognize present
awareness fantasizing, planning, dreaming. Recognize who or what is doing that present
awareness. Know the knower; see through the seer; go beyond me and mine, and be free.
[continued in the website.....]

Thusness: 03 November 2005 12:09 PM
quote:

Quite a good article I found from a quite well known Western Dzogchen teacher, Lama
Surya Das.
...
Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?
Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality,
no observer, and nothing observed.
Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.
Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing
anything in particular.
Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not
nothing.
Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.
As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness
continuously functions.
These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa-its emptiness and its cognizance
(lucidity)-are inseparable.
Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.
They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet
spacious, vivid, buoyant.
Nothing whatsoever, yet Emaho!, everything is magically experienced.
Simply recognize this.
Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.
With constant, vigilant mindfulness, sustain this recognition of empty, open, brilliant
awareness.
....]
A very enlightening article.
Just a point to add, the prestine awareness "...is formless, as if nothing whatsoever,
ungraspable, unborn, undying;..."
These characteristics arent attributes peculiar only to pure awareness, all phenomenon
existence posses this seemingly unknowable and ungraspable nature. It simply is how reality is
where pure awareness has no monopoly at all.
Forum Topic: How did Buddha get lost in Samsara?

(Longchen absent but related topic)
This is a Q&A recommended to me by Thusness, which I find quite interesting and I'm going
to post it here... it's from a Q&A by Thrangu Rinpoche.
http://www.rinpoche.com/q&a.htm
quote:
Originally posted by bohiruci:
Would it be appropriate u change the topic title , sounds

malice to Buddha
i wont like controversia topic to make ppl confused
it is like
so ?
Buddha is enlightened or Not ???
Point is, controversial topic attracts interest into finding out more
p.s i suggested the topic to be 'How did we got lost in Samsara', but Thusness insisted that i
should put it as 'How did Buddha got lost in Samsara?' instead, so if got any problem, I think
he'll have to answer that
quote:
Point is, controversial topic attracts interest into finding out more
p.s i suggested the topic to be 'How did we got lost in Samsara', but Thusness insisted that
i should put it as 'How did Buddha got lost in Samsara?' instead, so if got any problem, I
think he'll have to answer that
Yes Enternal Now,
Not that I insisted but the change is necessary because it is not the spirit of the question that is
posted to Thrangu Rinpoche by his students.
If the nature of mind is this all-pervading, brilliant union of luminosity and emptiness,
ungraspable, how is it that it could be obscured, even for a moment, let alone lifetime
after lifetime?
What and who could possibly equal to the original, pure, all-pervading, brilliant state of our
mind?
Is Buddhism about getting us back to our orginal state of pure awareness that no dust can fall
upon even after a zillion lives? Such question is controversial and do create confusion. But
confusion is necessary for wisdom to arise.
Lastly I do agree with Bohiruci that we should not malice Buddha. The intention must be pure
and sincere. After listening the audio, perhaps a more appropriate title can arise from other
'forumers'.
Sinweiy: 06 November 2005 05:49 PM
chapter 4 of Shurangama sutra:
The Buddha said, "You speak of understanding enlightenment; does the nature understand and
is that called enlightenment? Or does enlightenment initially lack understanding and so you
speak of understanding enlightenment?"
Purna said, "If a lack of understanding is called enlightenment, then there would be no
understanding at all."
The Buddha said, "If there were no understanding at all, then there could be no understanding
of enlightenment. If understanding is added, then that is not enlightenment. If understanding is
not added, then there's no understanding. But a lack of understanding or ignorance is not the
lucid bright nature of enlightenment. The nature of enlightenment certainly includes
understanding. It's redundant to speak of understanding enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a
kind of understanding. Understanding sets up an objective realm. Once that objective realm is
set up, your false subjective state arises.
As the expression goes, ignorance(aka not knowing) no doubt might be the overall condition of
beings, but it is also through 'Not wanting to know' that Springs All Knowing of Buddha(s). ie,
Not knowing and enlightenment complement each other.
lastly, be assured that when one attained the wonderful emptiness of clear enlightenment(ie
Buddhahood), one don't become confused again.
"Purna said, "If this wonderful enlightenment, the wonderful awareness of fundamental
enlightenment, which is neither greater than nor less than the mind of the Tathagata, abruptly
brings forth the mountains, the rivers, and the great earth, and all conditioned phenomena,
then now that the Tathagata has attained the wonderful emptiness of clear enlightenment, will
the mountains, the rivers, the great earth, and all conditioned habitual outflows arise ever
again?"
The Buddha said to Purna, "If a person living in a village were confused about directions,
mistaking south for north, would that confusion be the result of confusion or of awareness?"
Purna said, "His confusion would be the result of neither. Why not? Confusion is
fundamentally baseless, so how could anything arise because of it? And as awareness does not
produce confusion, how could confusion arise out of it?"
The Buddha said, "If someone who knows the directions points them out to the confused
person, then once the person who was confused becomes aware, do you suppose, Purna, that
he could lose his sense of direction again in that village?"
"No, World Honored One."
"Purna, the Tathagatas of the ten directions are the same way. Confusion is groundless and
ultimately empty in nature. In the past, there basically was no confusion. It merely seemed as if
there were confusion and enlightenment. When the delusion about confusion and enlightenment
is ended, enlightenment will not give rise to confusion. Consider the person who, because of
cataracts, saw flowers in space. Once the cataracts were removed, the flowers in space
disappeared. Were he to rush to the spot where the flowers disappeared and wait for them to
reappear, would you consider that person to be stupid or wise?"
Purna said, "Originally there weren't any flowers in space. It was through a seeing disability
that they appeared and disappeared. To see the disappearance of the flowers in space is
already a distortion. To wait for them to reappear is sheer madness. Why bother to determine
further if such a person is stupid or wise?"
The Buddha said, "Since you explain it that way, why do you ask if the clear emptiness of
wonderful enlightenment can once again give rise to the mountains, the rivers, and the great
earth? Consider a piece of ore containing gold and other metals mixed together. Once the pure
gold is extracted it will never become ore again. Consider wood that has burnt to ashes; it will
never become wood again. The Bodhi and Nirvana of all Buddhas, the Tathagatas, are the
same way. "
/\
Thusness: 07 November 2005 09:49 AM
The knowing here refers to a form of conceptual understanding. Enlightenment is not a form of
knowledge where understanding is derived from measurement and comparison. Understanding
that springs from such mode of knowing creates an objective and subjective world and divides.
When reality is intuitive perceived as a result of prajna wisdom, such division does not arise as
the division is from beginless time an illusion.
When the seeing is clear, falling isnt possible. It would be like telling a normal person to see
illusion.
However the question here is why the original mind has fallen when it is in its original state of
lucidity and luminosity? Is this luminosity the same as
the lucid bright nature of enlightenment?
Sinweiy: 07 November 2005 02:16 PM
yes, same. lucid or luminous or original brightness, are but labeling the same thing.
i'm thinking Conditioning(yuan).
See another quote from Shurangama Sutra:

QUOTE
The Buddha said to nanda, "From beginning less time onward, all living beings and in all
kinds of upside down ways, have created seeds of karma which naturally run their course, like
the aksha cluster.
"The reason that cultivators cannot accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi, but instead reach the level
of Hearers or of those enlightened to conditions, or become accomplished in externalist ways
as heaven-dwellers or as demon kings or as members of the demons retinues is that they do
not know the two fundamental roots and so are mistaken and confused in their cultivation. They
are like one who cooks sand in the hope of creating savory delicacies. They may do so for as
many eons as there are motes of dust, but in the end they will not obtain what they want.
"What are the two? nanda, the first is the root of beginning less birth and death, which is the
mind that seizes upon conditions and that you and all living beings now make use of, taking it
to be your own nature.
"The second is the primal pure substance of beginning less Bodhi Nirvana. It is the primal
bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions. Due to these conditions,
you consider it to be lost."Having lost sight of that original brightness, although beings use it
to the end of their days, they are unaware of it, and unintentionally enter the various destinies.
"nanda, now you wish to know about the path of shamatha with the hope of quitting birth and
death. I will now question you further."......
"All of you good people, I have often said that all conditions that bring about forms and the
mind as well as dharmas pertaining to the mind and all the conditioned dharmas are
manifestations of the mind only. Your bodies and your minds all appear within the wonder of
the bright, true, essential, magnificent mind.
/\
Well said and well quoted sinweiy.
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright, true,
essential, magnificent mind without conditions?
_wanderer_: 08 November 2005 12:31 AM
quote:

Well said and well quoted sinweiy.
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright,
true, essential, magnificent mind without conditions?
One who even gets to hear these words can be said to possess such vast merits.
Yet, without true experience, these are just words that can be parroted.
And yet, even with "true" experience, as Ridzin Jigme Lingpa said, (not his actual words, but
something like that...) " Experience is like a mist, it vanishes instantaneously. " At the split
second of remembering the experience of luminosity/bliss/emptiness, the luminosity is so-
called instantaneously obscured. Though by nature it had never been obscurable, nor
destroyable, thus it could never be purified, nor can it be found, discovered, realized nor
attained.
The confidence in one's spontaneously/primordially present luminosity is necessary in the path.

But it's not to be sought, for there's nothing to be sought, obtained or given up.
Can luminosity arise without conditions? Arising itself is conditioned, thus non-arising
luminosity is unconditioned. However, these are mere words and intellectual romanticizing of
the path. For how can the effortful practitioner accept that at the "destination" nothing is
attained?
The one who truly experiences does not need to answer this question, and does not need to
avoid answering this question either. Truly liberated and unbound. Perhaps that is why
Mahakashyapa smiled when Buddha picked up the flower. Sounds romantic, but not a big deal
"really".
Sinweiy: 08 November 2005 08:59 AM

quote:
Now, can luminosity arise without conditions? Is there a time where there is a bright,
true, essential, magnificent mind without conditions?
i also agreed that True/bright/luminous mind is beginless and unconditioned. yet IT do have the
"Function" of conditioning all existence. True/bright/luminous mind without a function of
conditioning, is no longer said to be True/bright/luminous anymore per se.
quote:
It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions.
True/bright/luminous mind is like a source sun with an ability of shining, and all conditions are
like sunlight which are emitted from the sun. Sun and sunlight come spontaneously together.
Just like we say Sunyata is form/existence; form/existence is sunyata (sound better in chinese),
w/o form there's no sunyata, w/o sunyata there's no form.
sunyata can be associated with True mind while form/existence can be associated with
conditions. they are although two yet they are not two per se.
that say in an similie, i recalled also in Shurangama Sutra, that the Light is already switched on,
we thought it's not On, when we seek enlightenment, and we go and turn the switch, unnoticely
we are actually turning it Off instead.
imho,
/\
Yes _Wonderer_,
As Ridzin Jigme Lingpa said Experience is like a mist, it vanishes instantaneously. But in
lightning flash moment, it reappears with perfect lucidity and vividness. Still nothing lost and
nothing attain.
Yes very true. A True experience is better than a thousand words but it is also the very true
experience of the Brilliance Bright that has blinded Mystics of all ages. The Brilliance Bright
is more vivid then we can imagine. In All IT is seen and In All IT is experienced. Being vividly
bright it also serves as the condition that obscures its very own Emptiness nature.
Lastly, there is a question, but No-One is there to answer.

Buddha picks a flower, Mahakashyapa smiles.
Thusness hits the keyboard, keyboard-sounds.
Da Da Da, how CLEAR. Luminosity smiles.
quote:
Originally posted by sinweiy:
True/bright/luminous mind is like a source sun with an ability of shining, and all
conditions are like sunlight which are emitted from the sun. Sun and sunlight come
spontaneously together.
Just like we say Sunyata is form/existence; form/existence is sunyata (sound better in
chinese), w/o form there's no sunyata, w/o sunyata there's no form.
sunyata can be associated with True mind while form/existence can be associated with
conditions. they are although two yet they are not two per se.
that say in an similie, i recalled also in Shurangama Sutra, that the Light is already
switched on, we thought it's not On, when we seek enlightenment, and we go and turn the
switch, unnoticely we are actually turning it Off instead.
imho,
/\
Yes Sinweiy,
The Buddha out of infinite compassion spoke the lucid luminosity, the unconditioned
Obviousness, the pure. But the self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never
been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is.
Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place.
No where to be found. This is the Tatagatha Nature.
Forum Topic: The quintessence of the Platform Sutra

Longchen: 25 November 2005 02:59 PM
Please allow 'me' to say something and correct 'me' if I am wrong...
We believe the 'I' or 'me' is the doer of all our actions and decision-making. This is really a
false belief. The idea that a 'self' that is controlling and making decision is an illusion. Things
gets accomplished nevertheless, with or without the 'sense of self'.
The 'I/sense of self' cannot will or control anything at all. The 'I' is inserted into the sequence of
thoughts and is just a sequence of thoughts.
'I' is not the doer, for most, it is the 'being done.'
Yes Long Chen,
But for penetrating insight to arise there must be the willingness to let go of false beliefs. Not to
create any sort of beliefs first, give up everything and see and feel from this raw state. Not to
say there is a doer, a controller, not to react to your thoughts and memories, just merely feel
and see the process. Not to immediately jump into conclusion and create a Source to fill the
in-between gaps to satisfy the thinking mind. Just conquer it with utmost sincerity. Allow
being done and understand the meaning of doing without a doer non doing. Do not
separate pure-awareness from the being done. Do not create a Source and separate it from
the Movement. Instead be Still and simply Feel the being done with totality. The experience
is like knowing without thought and yet dwelling into even the minuteness details of every
immediate experience with complete clarity. If you say I am IT, the clarity is lost. Any
separation prevents True Seeing. Why is this I necessary? Awareness is a stream of clear
luminosity without a center to be found anywhere. If we continue to try contain awareness as
Self hiding somewhere, clear luminosity will not be experienced and the QUANTUM empty
nature will not be known.
Forum Topic: An interesting article about 'no doer'

Longchen: 13 January 2006 11:58 AM
The following is excerpted from an article entitled An Exploration Of Non-Volitional Living
by Galen Sharp, a student and friend of Wei Wu Wei (Terence Gray). The complete text of the
article can be accessed at www.sentient.org. Click Teachers. Click Selected Teachers.
Click Galen.
You have never done anything! Because the mind has conceived itself to be an individual it
also conceives of itself as the Thinker and also the 'Actor' or 'Doer'. Yet it is not anyone. The
mind is not a 'thing' or entity but a process. The thinking process. Simply a process that is
happening automatically, the same as the heart is beating automatically. This is why we cannot
live the perfect life even though we have been taught how a 'good' person should act. We know
we shouldn't get angry at our spouse or our children whom we love, but despite the greatest
resolve, we still do. Why? Because we are not the thinker of our thoughts nor the doer of our
actions. Because they are not our thoughts or our actions. We are not even the experiencer of
the experience. What are we? We are what is perceiving the mind and that is not anyone.
We are what is perceiving the doing, but we are not the doer. We never were. We have never
done the bad things and we have never done the good things either. Thoughts are affected by
the environment (such as this article), inner habits and tendencies, and by the mind's concept of
a 'me', but not by any actual 'me'. We are incapable of interfering with the mind. Why? Because
there is no one to interfere. We aren't anyone. Thus, we absolutely cannot have any volition.
The concept of being an individual is an invention of the mind itself. It is an artifact of the way
the mind works. The feeling of volition is an illusion spawned by this concept of 'me'.
We can never find our own will (volition) in any action. Every so called action is actually an
automatic re-action of the mind with an accompanying feeling of volition. It is not 'me', it is the
mind automatically going its own way! Simply watch the mind. Be aware of it. That's all that
can be done because that is all we are doing right now. That is all we ever do. That is all we
have ever done. It is the mind that thinks and feels otherwise and we are what is aware of what
the mind thinks and feels. We are perfectly open, empty and still. We are not in space or time.
We can never be affected in any way. We have no needs or desires whatever. We just shine
brilliantly, effortlessly.
We are what perceives what is appearing. In fact, it is because of this perceiving that anything
at all appears. What we are is the beingness of what appears. The isness, or the am-ness, if you
will of the very sense of 'I am'. Another way to put it is that we are the Awareness in which
everything appears (the here-now, the sense of presence, consciousness). See that we are
simply and only the awareness of the mind while it goes its own way. Every sensation and
feeling it has belongs to it, to manifestation ...not to ourself. With everything that appears in
any way, we can say 'Not me, not me.'
We are the Watcher, not the thinker, or the doer, or the experiencer.
Once this is deeply and completely understood, the mind can let go of its sense of volition and
its sense of being an individual, relax and just be knowledge. Everything happens by itself.
Everything happens as it should. Everything happens as it must.
When the mind lets go of its sense of self and volition there is the deepest sense of complete
peace and fulfillment. It is the Bliss spoken of by the ancient masters. All fear disappears.
We are now looking from our true Source (as we always were but didn't realize) the timeless,
spaceless Absolute. The unmanifest. This is what we all are. This is the ultimate source of our
light of awareness. We are perceiving the manifest from its source, the unmanifest and it
unfolds spatially and temporally as it eternally IS.
Longchen: 13 January 2006 12:15 PM
There is one thing that puzzles me about the article though...
That is...
Is there really a perciever of the mind? Could it be that there is no perciever at all?
Perceiver seems to imply that there is something separate from the mind...watching it.
quote:
Originally posted by Xabir:

"When there is a watcher it is merely the past watching, and that is not watching, that is
just remembering and it is rather dead stuff. Watching is tremendously alive, every
moment a vacancy. Watching without a single thought, watching every reaction, watching
without identity, only endlessly watching, you are not really awake, you are absent
minded, not all there; you are not you but watching. There is no thinker watching the
thought, the thinker is the thought. Somebody passes by you and wonders what you are
watching. You are watching nothing, and in that nothingness everything is." - J
Krishnamurti
I think there is watching but no watcher.
There is doing but no doer.
Everything happens in the present moment... spontaneously. 'Sense of self' as a doer is just an
illusion.
Thusness will have a better understanding... hmm... wonder...whether he can comment on the
article or not.
Thusness: 14 January 2006 01:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by longchen:
I think there is watching but no watcher.
There is doing but no doer.
Everything happens in the present moment... spontaneously. 'Sense of self' as a doer is

just an illusion.
Thusness will have a better understanding... hmm... wonder...whether he can comment on

the article or not.
Yes LongChen,
I agree with what you said. There shouldnt be a separation. There are 2 seeds that I sense
lying deep in Galens Consciousness:
1. The meditative experience he gained on the aspect of 'No-Self'

2. The meditative experience of the 'ISness Presence, Knowingness Presence
However the imprint of the Knowingness Presence' is stronger than the understanding of 'No-
Self' and serves as the seed that makes Galen remarked 'We are the Watcher, not the thinker,
or the doer, or the experiencer', thus, creating separation.
The meditative experience of AMness is a very powerful one. It creates the impression of
Certainty, Absoluteness and Realness. It creates the impression that we have touched the
innermost reality of our own core being where thoughts play absolutely no role in that moment
of experience. This is a very unique and sacred experience but is a double edge sword. It must
be cleansed with the Emptiness truth otherwise there will always be separation.
What is the ultimate nature of this ISness Presence? Is the ISness Presence still the
Presence when there is separation? When we are listening to a piece of music, where and
what is this Ultimate Presence right at that moment? During meditation or when one is totally
submerged in appreciating the piece of music, he might exclaim, I become the music, I am
the listening itself or I am the music itself. The Presence is the Music is the Awareness is
the I. Does it mean that the subject, the object and the action have suddenly become one? Or
is there really no separation from beginning?
Separation is often the result of wrong identification, labeling and attachment. This is the
problem of language and attachment. When one is free from labeling and experience is direct,
there is really only listening, there is no I. This is what really is happening if we are not
hypnotized and deceived by thoughts and labeling -- One complete co-arising emptiness flow,
ever present and ever clear. There is no ghost and shadow in between, the I is unnecessary
and separation is illusionary.
There is no Watcher apart from the watching. There is no doer apart from the doing and own
willapart from the volition. The watching, doing and action refer to the same process.
This same process flows and continues life after life. The process reaps its own fruit. There is
no escape.

Hi Thusness,
Thanks so much for the detailed explanation.
Kind regards
Should we fear Fear? (Source:

Forum Topic:
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?action=display&boar
d=insight&thread=1138149311&page=1#1138160006 ~
Closing Gaps Spiritual Discussion Forum)
Simpo: Reply #8 on Jan 29, 2006, 7:34pm
Jan 28, 2006, 5:11am, Kyo wrote:
Oneness is not about 'Doing', it is about 'Being'. It does not matter what the
mind contrives (or even if it acknowledges or denies this Oneness),
because it is only the consciousness that by its very Being, can truly be
part of, and experience, this Oneness.
Dear Kyo and All,
I do have a different understand of this. And i will wish for the experience and clarity of
experienced friends.
Oneness does have a 'doing' aspect. If oneness is a 'Being' aspect, then it cannot be experienced
all the time... because given our constant activity... there is significantly less time when we are
free from activity.
There is in fact an 'connection' of 'being' with 'doing'... However, in such experiences, there is
doing... but no doer. It is the layer of 'assumed doership' by the conscious mind that make us
believe that we(personality) are the one doing and thus block off the 'sense of oneness.'
In such experiences of 'oneness in doing', the feeling is most beautiful/blissful and the body
feels 'light' and 'weightless'. Basically one is one with action... without the 'classic ego'
believing that it is the controller of the action.
PassBy (Thusness): Reply #10 on Jan 30, 2006, 5:32am
Jan 29, 2006, 7:34pm, simpo wrote:

Dear Kyo and All,
I do have a different understand of this. And i will wish for the experience
and clarity of experienced friends.
Oneness does have a 'doing' aspect. If oneness is a 'Being' aspect, then it

cannot be experienced all the time... because given our constant activity...
there is significantly less time when we are free from activity.
There is in fact an 'connection' of 'being' with 'doing'... However, in such

experiences, there is doing... but no doer. It is the layer of 'assumed
doership' by the conscious mind that make us believe that we(personality)
are the one doing and thus block off the 'sense of oneness.'
In such experiences of 'oneness in doing', the feeling is most

beautiful/blissful and the body feels 'light' and 'weightless'. Basically one is
one with action... without the 'classic ego' believing that it is the controller of
the action.
Hi Simpo,
Your experience is profound. This is just a two cents worth from a PasserBy.
If your experience is prolonged, the body will not just feel light and weigthless, but the
entire sensation of having a doer and a body completely dissolved. When consciousness
experiences the pure sense of I AM, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment
of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By doing so, it
subtly creates a watcher and fails to see that the Pure Sense of Existence is nothing but an
aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic
condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-
objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a
seer -- the experience of Pure Sound-Consciousness is radically different from Pure Sight-
Consciousness. Sincerely, if we are able to give up I and replaces it with Emptiness Nature,
not only is Consciousness non-local, the doing becomes the Thusness Now.
Happy Chinese New Year!
Forum Topic: meditating

Paperflower: 18 February 2006 11:57 AM
why do I feel so light when meditating? like as if i'm going to go out of my body? i'm scared to
let go dun know what will happen so I deliberately bring myself back? but feeling is also very
joyful so free dun know use what words to describe.
in my mind I just tell myself to be with buddha cos I know they will guide me protect me.
its only the moment of that lightness occurrs I feel I must not let go.
just awhile of meditating an hour has passed. never realise time flies when in meditating.
feel extremely fresh n energetic after that, I look fresh n radiant in mirror too.
no kidding...
any1 has meditating experience to share?
paperflower: 18 February 2006 12:09 PM
I felt my sense leaving me...

its hard to explain....
I called out to shakyamuni buddha to guide me on the proper path.
I felt a sense of freedom. also see nothing else except brightness of the color of yellow flame.
felt my body very light peaceful almost leaving....
felt joyful so free too joyful to be true tat becomes kinda scary.
maybe i'll get used to it?
I tell myself to let go everything .... just give out love n compassion n feel everything around
me naturally.
my whole sense just became so light n clear almost losing touch to my self. but i'm too rooted
tats y I still can't let go fully....
I believe buddhas will guide me... I must trust them.....
Thusness: 19 February 2006 12:38 PM
Hi paperflower,
The sensation of lightening is due to the falling away or loosening of the bond that you are a
physical self. You sank into a state near oblivious as a result of letting go but the mental
formation hasnt subsided (What is crucial is more on these mental formations).
feel extremely fresh n energetic after that, I look fresh n radiant in mirror too
This is the result of slowing down your thought process during meditation. Your senses become
sharper and more alert as though you are beaming when you are out of meditation.
Do go into the Buddhism aspect of no-self and emptiness and as suggested by some forumers,
look for a qualified teacher.
True experience of our Pristine Awareness must come with complete clarity and vividness.
There is no vagueness in realization. There is no dropping of senses necessary; rather all senses
are experienced in full without a doer. When no-self and emptiness is realized, the entire
sense of a doer and body completely dissolve without a trace and boundless freedom
becomes a moment to moment experience.
As what Joan Tollifson once asked Toni if she'd ever had one of those big awakenings where
life turns inside out and all identification with the body-mind ceases.
Toni replied, "I can't say I had it," she replied. "It's this moment, right now."
Happy Journey.
Forum Topic: looking for the Tao article post

Earthling82: 28 February 2006 11:50 PM
fundamental Taoism deriving from the Yi Jing has similarities with mainstream Buddhism. But
because of vast commercialization and varying interpretations, the underlying teachings to life
is secluded from most people
For example, the Ba Gua (Early and Later heaven) are representation of a core buddhist
teaching. Firstly the first verse, "The unmagnifested infinity gives rise to the magnifested
finite" -- Meaning all forms abide in space. Subsequently the Yin and Yang represents the
dualism views of Samsara e.g.
- Gain / Loss
- Health / Sickness
- Wealth / poverty
- Fellowship / lonliness etc etc
The dots within the Tai Chi represents the seed of the opposite polarity and an infinite no. of
Tai Chi within each Tai Chi. Denoting infinite beginning and end.
The turning of the Tai Chi reveals that when 1 extreme moves, it has to give up certain space in
order to progress -- denoting change. This is in accord with Buddhism whereby change or
impermanence is always in constant motion.
The full and broken stroke outside the Tai Chi denotes time esp for the Later Heaven Tai Chi.
On the whole it represents the spiritual realm of the universe in which we abide.
Thusness: 04 March 2006 01:34 AM
Yes Earthing82,
Polarity certainly isnt opposites; these extremities are themselves a single whole. Although the
power to abstract has brought us to the advancement of science today, it also prevent us from
experiencing reality directly, separating the inseparable and dividing wholeness into opposites.
Let us be undefined so that we can penetrate into the profundity of Tao.
To speak in Taoist terms, the Pristine Awareness is the great Unmanifest Infinity. It manifests
itself as phenomenon existence but conceals itself; this is its great reserve. Momentarily it
creates and recreate, this is called the Change. Before yin and yang, this is called the Original.
That Presence that can be felt but cannot be defined, this is called the Spirit. Movement without
core and center, this is called Emptiness. To see what is as it is, this is called Wisdom. The Tao
in its Self-So, this is called Thus.
An Eternal Now: 04 March 2006 01:49 AM

quote:

Yes Earthing82,
Polarity certainly isnt opposites; these extremities are themselves a single whole.
Although the power to abstract has brought us to the advancement of science today, it
also prevent us from experiencing reality directly, separating the inseparable and
dividing wholeness into opposites. Let us be undefined so that we can penetrate into the
profundity of Tao.
To speak in Taoist terms, the Pristine Awareness is the great Unmanifest Infinity. It
manifests itself as phenomenon existence but conceals itself; this is its great reserve.
Momentarily it creates and recreate, this is called the Change. Before yin and yang, this
is called the Original. That Presence that can be felt but cannot be defined, this is called
the Spirit. Movement without core and center, this is called Emptiness. To see what is as
it is, this is called Wisdom. The Tao in its Self-So, this is called Thus.
Hmm yea... yin and yang are not seperate but only aspects of the same reality. Non-dual..
False-imagination teaches that such things as light and shade, long and short, black and white
are different and are to be discriminated; but they are not independent of each other; they are
only different aspects of the same thing, they are terms of relation and not of reality.
Conditions of existence are not of a mutually exclusive character; in essence things are not two
but one.
Shakyamuni Buddha
> The Lankavatara Sutra
Forum Topic: which 3 level of impermanence do you understand?

Sinweiy: 03 April 2006 09:43 AM
http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/hhdl/itp.pdf
This transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something
coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of
impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment
things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment
they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun. When something comes into
being from its causes and conditions, the seed of its cessation is born along with it. It is not that
something comes into being and then a third factor or condition causes its disintegration. That
is not how to understand impermanence. Impermanence means that as soon as something
comes into being, it has already started to decay.
If you limit your understanding of impermanence to somethings continuum, you will

comprehend only gross impermanence. You will feel that when certain causes and conditions
give rise to something, it remains unchanged as long as the factors that sustain its existence
remain unchanged, and begins to disintegrate only when it encounters adverse circumstances.
This is gross impermanence.
If, however, you deepen your understanding of impermanence by approaching it at the subtle
levelthe moment-to-moment change undergone by all phenomenayou will realize how as
soon as something comes into being, its cessation has also begun.
At first you might feel that coming into being and coming to cessation a re contradictory
processes, but when you deepen your understanding of impermanence, you will realize that
coming into being (birth) and cessation (death) are, in a sense, simultaneous. Thus, the
fundamental law of impermanence (the transitory nature of all phenomena) gives us one basis
for the possibility of transforming our minds.
for me, the first thing that come to mind is simple understanding of impermanence, that
something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. i can still
understand Subtle, gross and even deep impermanence, but need to be reminded of.
/\
Thusness: 05 April 2006 12:24 PM
Yes, there is no 'something' coming into being and undergoing disintegration. When the mind
attempts to understand the phenomenon existence through our current mode of knowing that
works through comparison and measurement, the conclusion we derived seems paradoxical.
When we choose to see the 'arising', the thinking mind cannot see the cessation. Neither
'arising' nor 'cessation' 'is before nor after the other. The sequence is caused by the mind. By
choosing one, it has to give up the other. The thinking mind needs a base and the base becomes
an 'entity', a ''something'. That 'something', that 'entity' is required due to the poverty of our
thinking mechanism, it is not the true face of reality. A lighting flash of moment exhibits the
entirety of the Dharma seals and it is only in Buddhism that is pointed out. Not only that,
Buddha also taught us the systematic way of developing the intuitive insight into reality.
This also raise an interesting and controversial question of whether the pristine awareness is
impermanent. We know how boldly the Mahaparinirvana Sutra has aserted that the
tathagatagarbha is none other than the Self (Atman).
Bohiruci: 06 April 2006 12:31 PM
quote:

This also raise an interesting and controversial question of whether the pristine
awareness is impermanent. We know how boldly the Mahaparinirvana Sutra has
aserted that the tathagatagarbha is none other than the Self (Atman).
the pristine awareness is also impermanence .
However it is not easily understood as we are still using human dimension to view things
Nobody can understand the state of a Buddha unless one is a Buddha oneself ....
Just like Amitabha
people who tried to think of Amitabha Pureland as "too far away" from the multitudes of
Buddhaland will never get there
Yes. In the first turning of the dharma wheel, Buddha taught the four noble truth and the lack of
inherent existence of the self. In the second turnings, it was taught that all dharma lack inherent
existence. To prevent over negation, the third turning was preached. Even in the third turning
of the wheel, the Samdhinirmocana sutra of Yogacara, we also see the careful use of the word
Self and the clarification of the flow of perceptions without an enduring element. Similar
emphasis can also be found in the Mahamudra teaching (some say that it is fourth turning), the
emphasis of emptiness is pretty clear. What we witness is in each of the turnings, is the
refinement on the idea of impermanence and prevention of people from falling into the
nihilistic view that nothing exists but never the calm of the permanence of Buddha-Nature. As
the great Zen master Dogen puts it, impermanence is Buddhas Nature.
Nevertheless, any possible reasons why Mahaparinirvana Sutra and Tataghatagarbha sutras
assertion for this about-turn?
Lastly, why is this emphasis of impermanence crucial and what has our pristine awareness got
to do with it?
An Eternal Now: 06 April 2006 11:54 PM
quote:
Nevertheless, any possible reasons why Mahaparinirvana Sutra and Tataghatagarbha sutras
assertion for this about-turn?
I also don't know.. can explain? And I got a question - all the different turnings are supposed
to lead to the same realisations right? Then why is there a need for so many turnings?
quote:
Lastly, why is this emphasis of impermanence crucial and what has our pristine awareness
got to do with it?
[/b]
Impermanence is crucial because it teaches on the ungraspable nature of reality... and only
when the mind does not abides on anything will awareness be revealed. Also, the idea of
'permanence' comes with objectified reality, and awareness is not a 'thing'. If we say something
is permanent, then we're splitting time into Past Present and Future, but in reality there is only
the 'NOW moment', every moment is new. Is that right?
Yes Eternal_Now,
My sentiment exactly. All teachings aim at the same goal (emancipation from samsara) but
each turning of the dharma wheel refines our understanding of the true nature of reality during
our journey towards enlightenment. Personally, I feel that practitioners should not ascribed
levels to the different turnings but should view the turnings of the Dharmachakra as arising
due to the ripening of causes and conditions. The first turning focuses on the four noble truths
and the emptiness of the self. The second turning is on the importance of the emptiness nature
of all phenomenon existence (not only self), that is, the Prajnaparamita teachings. The third
turning introduced the presence of Buddha-Nature in everyone. In whatever case, the validity
of all discourses must not deviate from the authenticity of the Dharma Seals.
With regards to the bold assertion of certain tathagatagarbha sutras, some scholars ascribed the
Hindu influence during the Gupta period where we see strong pressure of traditional Hindu
culture. Another possible condition for the emergence of the tathagatagarbha sutras might be
the result of over negation in certain practices that eventually led people to mistake Buddhism
as nihilistic (On the surface, it is not uncommon that many misunderstood that Buddhism is
nihilistic) and a positive language about Nirvana is needed for non-buddhist ascetics as well as
buddhist-practitioners.
In my opinion, I feel that the teachings should be viewed as a single whole (Including the first
two turnings). When we attempt to pick and drop and take only a part or a snapshot of the
teachings and make comments, tathagatagarbha sutras will present as a problem and sound very
similar to the non-buddhist ascetics doctrines. However when taken as a whole, the sutras glue
and complement.
There truly exists a reality beyond conceptual fabrication. Its presence is abiding, the clarity
unsurpassed, its action is natural and arising is spontaneous. However this reality should not be
taken to mean a permanent unchanging entity. It is ultimate because it is non-dual. Conceptual
fabrication categorizes and creates a subject and object division. It is the Tathagatagarbha when
lost and Dharmakaya when enlightened.
Thusness: 09 April 2006 08:36 AM
quote:
Impermanence is crucial because it teaches on the ungraspable nature of reality... and only
when the mind does not abides on anything will awareness be revealed. Also, the idea of
'permanence' comes with objectified reality, and awareness is not a 'thing'. If we say
something is permanent, then we're splitting time into Past Present and Future, but in reality
there is only the 'NOW moment', every moment is new. Is that right?
Yes...very well put. The teaching of Emptiness of having no self, no core, no inherent
existence, must not stay at an abstract level. It must be felt, touched and intuitively
experienced in everything and in all moments. If it stays at the abstract level, Ground
Luminosity of our pristine awareness will not be experienced. Emptiness must cut away the
extra layer of abstraction that we have imputed on a Reality-Without-Core. The experience
must be intuitive, direct, transcendental, natural and effortless. Reality is dream-like, Ground
luminosity is a 'happening'. It is just so. Let it happens.
Sinweiy: 10 April 2006 09:50 AM
quote:
At first you might feel that coming into being and coming to cessation a re contradictory
processes, but when you deepen your understanding of impermanence, you will realize that
coming into being (birth) and cessation (death) are, in a sense, simultaneous. Thus, the
fundamental law of impermanence (the transitory nature of all phenomena) gives us one basis
for the possibility of transforming our minds.
the last deep profound understanding of impermanence seems to turn the idea of impermanence
into permanence, yet also not the normal permanence. the key word is simultaneous.
like they said, the meaning of unborn is actually born and death is so close and simultaneous, it
seems like unborn.
/\
quote:
the last deep profound understanding of impermanence seems to turn the idea of
impermanence into permanence, yet also not the normal permanence. the key word is
simultaneous.
like they said, the meaning of unborn is actually born and death is so close and
simultaneous, it seems like unborn.
/\
Yes and most important. But I would use the word Spontaneity. An unborn and non-dual
luminosity that arises spontaneously. This is the form of all emptiness and must come with
the complete abeyance of the 'Self'. All at once, the full essence of all arising will be
understood, from the rising sun, the sky, the trees and the grass...etc. It can only be intuitively
understood.
Permanence is a strong word in 'Buddhism', I would refrain from using it to cause

misconceptions (Though it is explicitly used in certain sutras). But the Presence is abiding.
Forum Topic: Eckhart Tolle

Isis: 20 April 2006 10:23 PM
hey im just wondering.. iamness.. is the state of having an identity, a label/concepts given by
mind and sometime the norms... man-made and not our true self..
Having real peace happens when one does not aware of iamness
Egoless?
quote:
Originally posted by Isis:

hey im just wondering.. iamness.. is the state of having an identity, a label/concepts
given by mind and sometime the norms... man-made and not our true self..
Having real peace happens when one does not aware of iamness
Egoless?
Hi Isis,
Not exactly so. I AMness is a transcendental experience where consciousness is directly

perceived as a pure sense of Existence. The experience is intuitive and beyond the realm of
thought. It is a non-dual and precious experience of pure consciousness. The problem lies in
personifying this experience which is a mental state into an entity 'Self' with inherent existence.
life (experiences) are symbolic (Source:

Forum Topic:
Discussion Forum)
Passerby: Reply #5 on Apr 16, 2006, 12:29am
Apr 6, 2006, 2:00am, simpo wrote:

Hi Kyo,
The symbolism appears to overlay on the Presence. Presence simply is,

without the meaning-overlay of symbolism. However, symbolism cannot be
downplayed... because it needs to be recognised to come full-circle. All this
happens in an astract manner.
Hi simpo,
I believe we did not "downplay" symbolism, man is a symbolic animal and we engage symbols
in almost every aspect of our lives from myths, religions, arts, languages, philosophies,
sciences...etc. Rather it is the experience of Presence that we "downplayed".
Simpo: Reply #6 on Apr 16, 2006, 6:14am
Thanks for the reply, Thusness
PasserBy: Reply #7 on Apr 21, 2006, 12:41am
By freeing ourselves from symbols, our experience will become direct and intuitive and
eventually lead us to a non-dual mode of cognition that eliminates the illusion of a subject and
object division.
However even with this non-dual insight that cuts away labels and symbols, the experience of
presence for different people will still not be identical. The essence of presence is that it does
not remain and takes no form. Like what you said humans can see colours while other
mammals only see in black and white (Even when not tainted with this extra layer of
symbols). This is the Emptiness aspect of Presence. This aspect of presence must be
understood in clarity too and the understanding must again be intuitive.
Simpo: Reply #8 on Apr 22, 2006, 9:04pm
Thanks again Thusness,
Will have a go at this...
Forum Topic: Will the soul leaves one when one meditate
Thusness: 20 May 2006 10:02 AM
From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of entity, then
it seems that there is a self leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all
phenomenon appearances as solid things existing independently. Such conventional mode of
comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.
If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we

are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it
does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic
propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place within. Yes, there is a
mental phenomenon arising but the sensation of entering and leaving is the result of
associating it with a self. Just like it is illusionary to see a self succeeding from moment to
moment, an entrance and exit is equally illusionary.
Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard
them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that
latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary
means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different
between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical
experiences are not molded into a self but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom
of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not
wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright,
only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one
has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This
is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence.
quote:
You see, ... at the Base all is meaningless. A face cannot see itself. The face can see itself
only when there is a mirror to reflect. The reflections are karma.
Actually, base and reflection are not separated at all...it a matter of perception.
Yes Longchen,
All is meaningless because it is not in terms words, labels and symbols. These are for the
'herds' but that Presence is all. An unintented urge can arise as a result of karmic propensities
but it is before the formation of perception.
The result of certain situations can be altered with powerful thought forms, however the karmic
propensities if being suppressed is not lost, if possible, let it arise naturally. Try not to over use
it. Happy journey.
An Eternal Now: 20 May 2006 01:17 PM
quote:
The result of certain situations can be altered with powerful thought forms, however the
karmic propensities if being suppressed is not lost, if possible, let it arise naturally. Try
not to over use it. Happy journey.
You refering to this?
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=chat&action=display&thread=11478
28880
Thusness: 20 May 2006 02:01 PM
quote:
You refering to this?
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=chat&action=display&threa
d=1147828880
Yes.
Longchen: 21 May 2006 01:58 AM
quote:
Yes Longchen,
All is meaningless because it is not in terms words, labels and symbols. These are for the
'herds' but that Presence is all. An unintented urge can arise as a result of karmic
propensities but it is before the formation of perception.
The result of certain situations can be altered with powerful thought forms, however the
karmic propensities if being suppressed is not lost, if possible, let it arise naturally. Try
not to over use it. Happy journey.
Thanks a lot, Thusness. You sure hit the right spot.
Thanks again for your invaluable advice
The Essential Practise of MINDFULNESS; relief of

Forum Topic:
Sufferings
A deep joy arises when reading this message.
Just to add an additional point:
No watcher needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in
the Visuddhi Magga.
Forum Topic: "excuse me, are you a Bodhisattva?"

quote:
I see. Thanks Thusness.
I will like to describe the karmic pattern sensing that I use and can you comment on it.
Thanks.
There is actually no effort to actively seek the pattern recognition. The process is
spontaneous as if the feeling suddenly know itself. With that intuitive knowing, the mind
can at time momentarily still. This is as if thought acknowledge itself. At that moment, it
loses its power of symbolism and meaning. Usually after this, the mind is calm and have
very little content...After a while, breathe arises and awareness of it follows.
Actually, I do not allocate session saying that I want to do karmic pattern sensing now.
This kind of activity can happen at any time of the day.
Thanks again
Hi LongChen,
Yes what you described is right. Without symbols and labels, the 'self' has no place to rest. The
experience loosen the karmic propensities that bond, you will experience the sudden breaking
loose if the 'self' dissolved.
Also, in the intuitive mode, it will not be right to treat the message to be conveyed as a single
bit of information. It contains all information that are yet to be manifested. That single bit may
contain our entire past histories. It is the intensity and concentrated penetration of that mode
that makes the difference. The AMness experience when intensified might lead us to another
path without knowing our ultimate emptiness nature. It is most crucial to study thoroughly what
the Buddha taught about the doctrine of no-self and Emptiness even if the teachings challenge
the most profound transcendental experiences we have. We may continue our path but at least
let the teachings imprint deep into our consciousness. It is truly rare, do not waste the
opportunity.
Longchen: 31 May 2006 01:35 PM
quote:
Hi LongChen,
Yes what you described is right. Without symbols and labels, the 'self' has no place to
rest. The experience loosen the karmic propensities that bond, you will experience the
sudden breaking loose if the 'self' dissolved.
Also, in the intuitive mode, it will not be right to treat the message to be conveyed as a
single bit of information. It contains all information that are yet to be manifested. That
single bit may contain our entire past histories. It is the intensity and concentrated
penetration of that mode that makes the difference. The AMness experience when
intensified might lead us to another path without knowing our ultimate emptiness nature.
It is most crucial to study thoroughly what the Buddha taught about the doctrine of no-
self and Emptiness even if the teachings challenge the most profound transcendental
experiences we have. We may continue our path but at least let the teachings imprint
deep into our consciousness. It is truly rare, do not waste the opportunity.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the invaluable advise.
You are right. Even in the intuitive mode, there is still this tendency to treat information as
singular bits and pieces. Intuitively, the sensing relays that there is only 'touching of the
surface' with no 'sustained entry'. Intuitively, there is the knowing that entry much be deeper.
Thanks again, i will remember these words.

regards
longchen
Forum Topic: Is reality like quantum physics?

Longchen: 10 June 2006 09:19 AM
Dear experienced ones, especially Thusness,
I will like to seek your wisdom and experience.
Is Reality like quantum physics?
In Quantum physics, subatomic particles can be immaterial waves as well. Likewise,

form/thought/perception is pure awareness/presence. Form/thought is pure awareness in its
'manifestation stage'. Pure awareness is 'essense stage'. There is this continuous change from
manifestion to essense and so on so forth. Continuous stream of moment and change. There is
no separation, but this very everchanging-ness.
However, through subtle intuitive knowingness, thought dissolves back to pure awareness.
More and more of thoughts dissolve/revert back as the 'immediate' presence.
Thanks and kind regards.

Thusness: 10 June 2006 10:12 PM
quote:

Is Reality like quantum physics?
In Quantum physics, subatomic particles can be immaterial waves as well.
[/b]
Hi Longchen,
You may want to grab the book The Spiritual Universe by Fred Alan Wolf, it is a good read.
He is a Ph.D in theoretical physics and described matter as follows:
Matter seemingly solid when observed on a scale of inches and seconds, was mostly empty
space with tiny bits of something call probability clouds filling that space. These clouds are
fundamental particles tendencies to exist to somehow pop out of nothing and become
coherent matter
If quantum reality is as what he described, then yes. In terms of reality as a flux, tendencies
to exist, non-locality and collapsing of quantum waves, it is in line with Buddhist thought.
One additional point I need to stress, the process itself knows. This point is missing.
quote:
Likewise, form/thought/perception is pure awareness/presence. Form/thought is pure

awareness in its 'manifestation stage'. Pure awareness is 'essense stage'. There is this
continuous change from manifestion to essense and so on so forth. Continuous stream of
moment and change. There is no separation, but this very everchanging-ness.
Yes Longchen,
All is the emptiness nature of this luminous everchanging-ness at work. From manifestation to
manifestation, essence isnt lost. The manifestation itself knows; no knower needed. In both
doingness and beingness, in activity or at rest, all is Presence with differing causes and
conditions; but none is more superior to the other. When we impute no extra layer of
abstraction and not label any states of experience as purest, then one truly enters the stream.
The manifested and the un-manifest are one and inseparable, take out one and the other
subsides. Analyze one without the other, and both are distorted. When the self dissolves,
outside and inside fuse, the mysterious connection of things is seen. How does the Presence
arises? This is, that is. Experience the arising and the ceasing, zoom into the very heart of taste,
smell, sight, touch, sound and thought and extend it beyond the six foot body, the trees, the sun,
the light, the humming birdsAll is and are the IS that never remains. Still the experience of
Thou are That but this time with an Empty nature.
My two cents.
Longchen: 10 June 2006 11:41 PM
quote:
Yes Longchen,
All is the emptiness nature of this luminous everchanging-ness at work. From

manifestation to manifestation, essence isnt lost. The manifestation itself knows; no
knower needed. In both doingness and beingness, in activity or at rest, all is Presence with
differing causes and conditions; but none is more superior to the other. When we impute
no extra layer of abstraction and not label any states of experience as purest, then one
truly enters the stream. The manifested and the un-manifest are one and inseparable,
take out one and the other subsides. Analyze one without the other, and both are
distorted. When the self dissolves, outside and inside fuse, the mysterious connection of
things is seen. How does the Presence arises? This is, that is. Experience the arising and
the ceasing, zoom into the very heart of taste, smell, sight, touch, sound and thought and
extend it beyond the six foot body, the trees, the sun, the light, the humming birdsAll is
and are the IS that never remains. Still the experience of Thou are That but this time
with an Empty nature.
My two cents.
Hi Thusness,
I see... Thanks so much again.
Now, i see how subtly one state is believed to be more favourable than the other. Thanks again.
Have a nice day

Hi Longchen,
While meditating, something came to my mind and I think it is necessary to just drop by to jot
down some points to note when a practitioner is moving from an 'AMness' experience to the
experience of No-Self. As the experience becomes more subtle, it gets more challenging to
detail out the fine differences in terms of one's experience. I might not be the correct person to
comment anything but just for the purpose of sharing.
The experience of the mirror bright flow is not an exchange between the divine and symbolic
realm; not a divine play between the divine and symbols. For in this realm, thought already
exists. The experience of no-self as the flux is taking place in a space without symbols. It is like
widening the gap between 2 moments of thought and experiencing the moment to moment of
transformation in this bardo gap. Here the practitioner moves into Presence forgetting Presence.
When smell arises, there is no symbol at all. The odour is the experience of the air, nose,
flower... It is the entire interaction, entire flow, entire 'sense', it is one whole unfathomable
experience. It is not understanding the impermanence, not understanding interaction, it is the
interaction, the impermanence itself telling what it is. This is the direct experience of anatta but
due to defilement, it can still be mistaken as the Big Self. However when correctly understood
it is also the experience that provides a practitioner the condition to understand the profound
meaning of Emptiness before experiencing the Dharmakaya.
quote:

Hi Longchen,
While meditating, something came to my mind and I think it is necessary to just drop by
to jot down some points to note when a practitioner is moving from an 'AMness'
experience to the experience of No-Self. As the experience becomes more subtle, it gets
more challenging to detail out the fine differences in terms of one's experience. I might
not be the correct person to comment anything but just for the purpose of sharing.
The experience of the mirror bright flow is not an exchange between the divine and
symbolic realm; not a divine play between the divine and symbols. For in this realm,
thought already exists. The experience of no-self as the flux is taking place in a space
without symbols. It is like widening the gap between 2 moments of thought and
experiencing the moment to moment of transformation in this bardo gap. Here the
practitioner moves into Presence forgetting Presence. When smell arises, there is no
symbol at all. The odour is the experience of the air, nose, flower... It is the entire
interaction, entire flow, entire 'sense', it is one whole unfathomable experience. It is not
understanding the impermanence, not understanding interaction, it is the interaction, the
impermanence itself telling what it is. This is the direct experience of anatta but due to
defilement, it can still be mistaken as the Big Self. However when correctly understood it
is also the experience that provides a practitioner the condition to understand the
profound meaning of Emptiness before experiencing the Dharmakaya.
Hi Thusness,
Oh... i see.
Thanks for the advice.
Greatly appreciative
Forum Topic: Buddhism stand on parasites like mosquitoes?

_wanderer_: 16 June 2006 01:56 AM
quote:
We haven't conversed for so long, old one! u're making me feel nostalgic
Since there's nothing to abandon and nothing to attain, there is no "IT" to be seen and to
obscure. Yet at the relative level there appears to be this brilliant "IT" that is experienced as an
illusion.
The moment we talk about the "true experience" it is already a fabricated concept, memory,
compounded construct. Yet out of Buddhas' compassion, they talk to us so much about the
"true experience".
To the enlightened beings, our fascination with these experiences can probably be likened to
that of us watching a child getting very fascinated that a ball can roll --> something that is so
normal and ordinary to us that we don't even think of paying attention to it. (it's just an analogy
describing the normalcy of the "experience of truth"
So many reminders by the great masters of the various traditions, that if we want to further
progress, we have to abandon the various experiences. "Don't write it down, don't compose
poetry, best if you forget." was such a precious and frank advice told to me.
However, to deluded beings like myself, I guess these experiences can serve as encouragement
also. At least, I had the wish to see the ball roll (wish to see the truth) and at least, I began to
have a glimpse that THE BALL DOES ROLL! (some kind of a glimpse of reality)
Then eventually I have to discard that experience, that joy, that memory. If not, that very
experience will be where I'll be stuck at.
The way the Buddha, the enlightened beings, weave the VIEW and the PATH together and
present them to us, is simply amazing. Sometimes there is no better way for me to comprehend
the skilfulness except to understand it as Great Compassion.
At the end of it, after the intellectual search, the debates, the discussions, the logical analysis
and rationalization, the descriptions, the validations, the verification.... there will come a point
when one finds that all words are somewhat inadequate, and one does not really want to talk so
much.
And what fuels one to continue along the path... will be one's practice, consistent practice
And what protects one from being too goal-oriented towards the path, will be the firm
establishment of the view that ultimately there is no realization and no non-realization.
And what gives one strength and motivation to continue to strive, despite the path sometimes
being boring, discouraging or impossible, will be the supreme Bodhicitta wish for all
dreaming sentient beings to wake up and see that all their suffering had only been existing
illusorily and all they need to do is to wake up from the dream.
Not sure why I started to feel like writing all these tonight... probably due to the Samsaric
combination of various causes & conditions... if it doesn't make sense to anybody please just
ignore them.
May all sentient beings be awakened.
quote:
Originally posted by _wanderer_:
obscure. Yet at the relative level there appears to be this brilliant "IT" that is experienced
as an illusion.
The moment we talk about the "true experience" it is already a fabricated concept,
memory, compounded construct. Yet out of Buddhas' compassion, they talk to us so much
about the "true experience".
To the enlightened beings, our fascination with these experiences can probably be likened
to that of us watching a child getting very fascinated that [b]a ball can roll --> something
that is so normal and ordinary to us that we don't even think of paying attention to it. (it's just
an analogy describing the normalcy of the "experience of truth"
much.
ignore them.
May all sentient beings be awakened. [/b]
Ha ha ha!
We are all addicted to experiences. We are all addicted to the wish of being liberated.

Yes young one, the feeling is mutual. Words cannot describe the affinity. The old one is too
old to work now, pray for my early retirement. Here and now, causes and conditions propel to
all realms. May all be awakened.
quote:
Originally posted by _wanderer_:
obscure. Yet at the relative level there appears to be this brilliant "IT" that is experienced
as an illusion.
The moment we talk about the "true experience" it is already a fabricated concept,
memory, compounded construct. Yet out of Buddhas' compassion, they talk to us so much
about the "true experience".
To the enlightened beings, our fascination with these experiences can probably be likened
to that of us watching a child getting very fascinated that [b]a ball can roll --> something
that is so normal and ordinary to us that we don't even think of paying attention to it. (it's just
an analogy describing the normalcy of the "experience of truth"
much.
ignore them.
May all sentient beings be awakened. [/b]
Yes Longchen,
Enough to get me stuck for 20 years.

_wanderer_: 17 June 2006 03:23 PM
quote:
Ha ha ha!
We are all addicted to experiences. We are all addicted to the wish of being liberated.
Yeah Due to habitual tendencies we're all chronic addicts.
Then there are some addictions that lead to more addictions. (such as the eight worldly
concerns)
And then there are some addictions that eventually would lead to the elimination of addictions.
(such as the addictive wish to be liberated from addictions)
Thusness: 18 June 2006 10:29 AM
Struggles, confusions, sufferings.there is no escape. Before the arisen of unarisen factor of

enlightenment, progress will not be stable. After that, wonder, bliss, and clarity will springs
from nowhere to everywhere -- the fruition of simplicity and ordinariness.
The essence, the Presence can be hardly termed Self. The degree of clarity is the inverse
function of Self:
Clarity = (1/Self).
Practice no-self and mindfulness, it is safest. It is difficult not to be egoistic when one attains.
Originally so, nothing attained nothing gained.
Dont move, nothing within, nothing without, spontaneity everywhere.
Mysterious gate opens, valley spirit seen.
Self So.
Ant bites, ouch!
quote:

Struggles, confusions, sufferings.there is no escape. Before the arisen of unarisen factor
of enlightenment, progress will not be stable. After that, wonder, bliss, and clarity will
springs from nowhere to everywhere -- the fruition of simplicity and ordinariness.
The essence, the Presence can be hardly termed Self. The degree of clarity is the inverse
function of Self:
Clarity = (1/Self).
Practice no-self and mindfulness, it is safest. It is difficult not to be egoistic when one
attains.
Originally so, nothing attained nothing gained.
Dont move, nothing within, nothing without, spontaneity everywhere.
Mysterious gate opens, valley spirit seen.
Self So.
Ant bites, ouch!
This is a very good piece of advice. Thanks for the sharing, Thusness.
Clarity = (1/Self)
This should be a principle for spiritual paths.
Forum Topic: Is God A Thing?

Is God a thing?
If God is a thing, then who is the creator of this Being call God?
So can God be a thing? If God can be an object, then it is not the ultimate. Because if it is an
object/thing/Being, then who is the creator of this object/thing/Being?
Casino_king: 22 June 2006 09:10 AM
quote:

Is God a thing?
If God is a thing, then who is the creator of this Being call God?
So can God be a thing? If God can be an object, then it is not the ultimate. Because if it
is an object/thing/Being, then who is the creator of this object/thing/Being?
GOD is Spirit according to the Bible. What is spirit, you might say? I can only speak based on
my own relationship with God and I tell you that I have no wish to define God for you or
anybody because as far as I am concern, GOD is beyond's any man's comprehension and you
only communicate and have a relationship / be aware of God in your own life.
How a man ends up being aware and have a relationship with God is by being "born of the
spirit." I certainly know that I was born again. When you are born again, "angels" and "heaven"
and your whole being rejoices.
It is not much different then when a baby is born, except that this is personal. You are the one
that rejoices with the "heavenly beings."
I put them all in " " because you might have a different understanding of those words in " " that
I used.
Many Christians here cannot accept what I say, even though it was Jesus who said, "You must
be Born Again" and "You must be born of the Spirit" and insists that it is simply "believe, have
faith" and not a "new birth" in you (the other school hope that as long as you believe you then
assume you have new birth ) As if you need to hope and not know something so obvious as a
new birth in yourself.
I believe that Enlightenment has the same effect. If you are Enlightened please tell me what it
is like.
Casino_king: 22 June 2006 09:12 AM
Like I said, Buddha was from Hindu tradition amd if you think that God (as creator is Brahma,
the statue that Hindus worship, you are sadly mistaken and Buddha was right to reject the
creator god Brahma.)
Concerned_man: 22 June 2006 09:28 AM
From Internet search, there are other group who have the same definition of God, where God
has no physical form.
Each inidividual interpret God differently. Regardless of this variation, it is real for them in
their mind and heart.
quote:
Originally posted by concerned_man:

From Internet search, there are other group who have the same definition of God,
where God has no physical form.
Each inidividual interpret God differently. Regardless of this variation, it is real for
them in their mind and heart.
When we try to intepret God, we are trying to imagine/conceptualise the ungraspable. .. and
God becomes a concept/idea and in our mind it becomes 'objectified'. It is like a dog trying to
bite its own tail.
From my understanding, there is no creator-creation division. It is an optical/perceptual

illusion...a matrix. Observer(me) and the being observed (other) is a hypnotic thought...
creating the appearance of 'me and other'..
Concerned_man: 22 June 2006 10:10 AM
Interesting. In fact Buddha did say that all creations are the works of our mind.
"Yi Jie Fa Chong Xin Xiang Shen, Wei Xin Suo Xian, Wei Shi Suo Bian" The chinese text is
available in the Amitabha and Pure Land thread.
quote:
When we try to intepret God, we are trying to imagine/conceptualise the ungraspable. ..

and God becomes a concept/idea and in our mind it becomes 'objectified'. It is like a dog
trying to bite its own tail.
From my understanding, there is no creator-creation division. It is an optical/perceptual

illusion...a matrix. Observer(me) and the being observed (other) is a hypnotic thought...
creating the appearance of 'me and other'..
Neutral_onliner: 22 June 2006 10:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by concerned_man:

Interesting. In fact Buddha did say that all creations are the works of our mind.
"Yi Jie Fa Chong Xin Xiang Shen, Wei Xin Suo Xian, Wei Shi Suo Bian" The chinese
text is available in the Amitabha and Pure Land thread.
yes the mind is the creator
Mind is the forerunner of all actions.
All deeds are led by mind, created by mind.
If one speaks or acts with a pure mind,
happiness follows, as surely as one's shadow
-Buddha.
Casino_king: 22 June 2006 03:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
yes the mind is the [b]creator
Mind is the forerunner of all actions.
All deeds are led by mind, created by mind.
If one speaks or acts with a pure mind,
happiness follows, as surely as one's shadow
-Buddha.[/b]
I believe that you have intepreted MIND in error. The MIND that Buddha speaks of is not the
human mind.
It is like what John, Jesus' disciple wrote:
John 1 WEB
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Does it mean that man's words was with God from the beginning and man's words was God?
No, similarly, when Buddha said MIND, he did not mean man's mind.
Man's actions, yes proceeded from man's mind.
So if you project it up; the universe too was created by a MIND.
John used WORD instead of MIND because in Jewish traditions, it was stated:
What we see now came into existence with the words: "LET THERE BE LIGHT."
Begind the words: "LET THERE BE LIGHT" is the MIND.
In the beginning was the MIND, and the MIND was with God and the MIND was God.
quote:
Observer(me) and the being observed (other) is a hypnotic thought... creating the
appearance of 'me and other'..
Yes Longchen,
the thought is hypnotic, it bonds and the entire world changes with that thought. It is in the
flesh, the blood, the cell. Everything seems different. Let us be thoroughly aware and feel the
full power of the bond.
quote:
Emmm... am not so sure about describing it as a person. The function of existence is

impersonal and without self.
Uncreated and no beginning, yes. No beginning because Nowness has no past and no
future. Past and future are our memory...manifested realm. But, i think, we may not be
able to categorise them as manifested or uncreated. Because the categorisation/labeling
itself is a thought manifestation.
This is an interesting topic and since it is allowed to discuss more about God in a Buddhism
forum, I would like to talk a little more about the experience of 'AMness" in all things.
Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner
becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object
division does not take place. A person experiencing AMness will find AMness in
everything. What is it like?
Being free individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and
out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an entity residing
anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all
phenomenon to take place. Even the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly
authenticated with that reality; experiencing the Real as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that
AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not
moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is God.
quote:
This is an interesting topic and since it is allowed to discuss more about God in a
Buddhism forum, I would like to talk a little more about the experience of 'AMness" in
all things.
Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a
practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality,
subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing AMness will find
AMness in everything. What is it like?
Being free individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop
in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an
entity residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the
ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even the moment of subsiding (death),
the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the Real as clear as
it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-
emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This
"AMness" is God.
You are close, if I do not sound too arrogant for saying that. You are missing something
though. What is it that you are missing?
quote:
Originally posted by casino_king:

You are close, if I do not sound too arrogant for saying that. You are missing something
though. What is it that you are missing?
Yes casino_king,
Unless you tell me what is the doctrine of anatta about and how does emptiness step in
quote:
Yes casino_king,
Unless you tell me what is the doctrine of anatta about and how does emptiness step in
Oh I don't know about the doctrine of anatta... wil find out about it and get back to you. I come
from "the other side" if you know what I mean. I like to think of myself as having crossed over
to the other side, am now looking back at the people trying to cross over, without sounding too
arrogant, using different methods like Buddhism or Hinduism or Christianity... and so on.
Anatta
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Buddhist term Anatman (Sanskrit) or Anatta (Pali) is an adjective that specifies the
absence of a supposedly permanent and unchanging self or soul in any one of the psycho-
physical (namo-rupa) constituents of empirical existence; eg. "none of these skandhas are my
Soul, are anatta (non-Self)". What is normally thought of as the "Self" is in fact an
agglomeration of constantly changing physical and mental constituents ("skandhas" ) which
give rise to unhappiness if clung to as though this temporary assemblage formed some kind of
immutable and enduring Soul ("atman" ).
quote:
Originally posted by casino_king:

Oh I don't know about the doctrine of anatta... wil find out about it and get back to you.
I come from "the other side" if you know what I mean. I like to think of myself as
having crossed over to the other side, am now looking back at the people trying to cross
over, without sounding too arrogant, using different methods like Buddhism or
Hinduism or Christianity... and so on.
Not yet. "I am who I am" is still not enough.

Anatta or soul-lessness
This Buddhist doctrine of rebirth should be distinguished from the theory of reincarnation
which implies the transmigration of a soul and its invariable material rebirth. Buddhism denies
the existence of an unchanging or eternal soul created by a God or emanating from a Divine
Essence (Paramatma).
If the immortal soul, which is supposed to be the essence of man, is eternal, there cannot be
either a rise or a fall. Besides one cannot understand why "different souls are so variously
constituted at the outset."
"It should be said," writes Bertrand Russell, "that the old distinction between soul and body has
evaporated quite as much because 'matter' has lost its solidity as mind has lost its spirituality.
Psychology is just beginning to be scientific. In the present state of psychology belief in
immortality can at any rate claim no support from science."
from: http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell09.htm
Anatta - The Teaching on Not-Self

Who am I?
One of the most challenging teachings of Buddhism is that relating to the idea of 'not-self' or
anatta. Whereas both Christianity and Islam have the notion of an individual soul, and whereas
Hinduism has the idea of atman, Buddhism offers a different perspective altogether. Buddhism
argues that there is no such thing as a permanent self or soul, a very difficult notion to grasp,
even on a conceptual level, let alone realizing it experientially. But if there is no such thing as a
permanent self or soul, then the obvious question is - who is this person that eats, drinks,
breathes, thinks, forms relationships and has a career? Who am I?
from: buddhism.about.com/library/weekly/aa070702a.htm
Forum Topic: Interesting site about stages of progress

Longchen: 05 July 2006 06:16 PM
May not be a Buddhist site..
But I think it is interesting...
http://www.parama.com/html/body_stages.html
Moderators pls remove it if it is not appropriate. thanks.

Thusness: 06 July 2006 10:01 AM
Interesting site...
In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience
of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from
experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond
labels and concepts.
I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments:
On the experience of AMness:

The key when the I drops away lies in fusing into everything. Without this experience, it
is still resting in I AM, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of fusing into
all things, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is
without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in.
On the unchanging self:

quote:
It is strange that when people want to know their real self, they start looking at relative
bunches of ever changing concepts. Reality is that which underlies relativity. Reality is
unchanging.
We must ask ourselves: What is the only unchanging reality of our life? What is the only
phenomenon that has never changed since we were born?
The answer can readily be experienced when we close our eyes and go introspective. It is our
sense of BEING. Our I AM-ness. Everybody can always experience the sense that they exist.
That inner sense never changes and is there if we are happy, angry, sad, drunk,- whatever.
Further, it cannot be localized within any part of the body. It is limitless and experienced by
everyone the same way. It is infinite REALITY!
When observing moment to moment changes, it is almost natural to conclude this way. There
must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the
lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an
unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not
necessary.
On feeling lightness and experiencing astral traveling:

quote:
My own experience is that the density of the body seems to change. Years ago I experienced
the phenomena of astral traveling. During this experience you have the feeling of leaving
the coarser body and floating. At some stage you have to return to the body, and the feeling is
not very pleasant. You are going from a feeling of freedom and lightness back into what
feels like cold, dense, clay. This clay is the collective emotions, experiences, and holding of
the body. After some AMness has fallen away, the body feels lighter and less dense. You just
keep feeling lighter and freer.
The density and lightness is the weight of losing her identification with certain aspect of
the self. The power of this identification cannot be underestimated.
Next is her experience of astral traveling, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a
sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether
different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that consciousness has left
and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her
conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.
But then everyone has their own experiences. Just my 2 cents.

Longchen: 06 July 2006 10:57 AM
Hi Thusness,
I read your post with much enthusiam. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
regards
Forum Topic: Please Casino King dont post here so I can get
answers!
La lapine blanche: 18 July 2006
I recently posted the post below but it's quite hard to get answers because everyone keeps
getting distracted by CK's arguments ...
Nothing against CK at all, hope I'm not being rude, just hoping someone could answer my
query
Thanks
Lapine
_____________________________________________________________
Thank-you all for taking the time to post replies.
To some extent I understand the whole "flow" thing of a mental continuum, how I am a
different self every moment, etc. At one level that makes sense.
But at another level it doesn't fit with what I have been telling myself in order to encourage
myself to practise the 5 precepts. When I am tempted to do stupid things like speak unkindly I
tell myself "That's just my ego or whatever wanting to show off, whereas my mental continuum
is the real, important bit, the bit I will carry over into the next life ... so it is more important to
avoid accumulating negative karma". I have found this way of thinking helpful ... but am I
ultimately wrong to think this way then?
I really still don't think I understand it because surely even if my self is just flow and ever-
changing, it is still true that if what I do in one moment affects the subsequent moments/even
lives then there is some permanency in that ... like for example if I accumulate some positive
karma it is like a permanent investment because it increases the future likelihood of more
positive karma/good rebirth/even Enlightenment eventually?
Thusness: 18 July 2006 04:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by la lapine blanche:

I recently posted the post below but it's quite hard to get answers because everyone
keeps getting distracted by CK's arguments ...
Nothing against CK at all, hope I'm not being rude, just hoping someone could answer
my query
Thanks
Lapine
_____________________________________________________________
Thank-you all for taking the time to post replies.
To some extent I understand the whole "flow" thing of a mental continuum, how I am a
different self every moment, etc. At one level that makes sense.
But at another level it doesn't fit with what I have been telling myself in order to
encourage myself to practise the 5 precepts. When I am tempted to do stupid things like
speak unkindly I tell myself "That's just my ego or whatever wanting to show off,
whereas my mental continuum is the real, important bit, the bit I will carry over into
the next life ... so it is more important to avoid accumulating negative karma". I have
found this way of thinking helpful ... but am I ultimately wrong to think this way then?
I really still don't think I understand it because surely even if my self is just flow and
ever-changing, it is still true that if what I do in one moment affects the subsequent
moments/even lives then there is some permanency in that ... like for example if I
accumulate some positive karma it is like a permanent investment because it increases
the future likelihood of more positive karma/good rebirth/even Enlightenment
eventually?
Hi la lapine blanche,
I might not be able to provide you the answer you want but I hope the aspect on the luminosity
and the emptiness nature of consciousness can help.
The clear knowingness that creates the deeply rooted sense of Self, the agent before birth and
after death, the sense of permanency will first be experienced. When a practitioner first
experienced this Self, it is not uncommon to get overwhelmed by this/ experience and
conclude this Self as the ultimate core of our Beingness. The result of this experience is partly
due to the luminous nature of consciousness and partly the habitual tendencies of our current
mode of enquiry. First we must understand that Consciousness need not fit in nicely into the
structure of what, who, where, why and how which is merely one particular system of
enquiry that assumes reality is made up of isolated objects. Although this is currently the ruling
mode of knowing the phenomenon world; it is by no means the only way or the best way.
Imagine what if consciousness is not an object of anything and cannot be bounded within a
space-time continuum? Will such mode of enquiry that is strictly based on grouping,
categorization, measurement and comparison understand the essence consciousness? If not
what other modes of knowing are available? In Buddhism, mindfulness is a preferred mode of
experiencing reality as it is. It goes beyond symbols, labels, thoughts and see reality in a raw
and undefined mode. By going beyond this layer of abstraction, one is able to perceive without
any in between intermediary leading to the gradual dissolving of illusionary categorization and
division. Self dissolves too as it can only lives in symbols. Only then we are equipped with
the condition to understand more about our true nature. This is a pre-requisite.
Next, if we merely think that the flow is only a chain of thoughts, emotions, mental states in a
series of self1, self2, self3 changing from moment to moment, we still missed something
valuable. It is not just so.
When a mind reaches certain level of clarity, thoughts subsides and before perception arises,
what happened to the series again? Does it cease to interact and stop becoming a flow, a flux of
becoming or a stream of moments? Has each of the moment of the self series (self1,
self2selfN) ever appear to us that it is the light of the sun, the blue color of the sky, the taste
of the food?
The purpose of all teachings and all sutras are provisional means to bring us to the intuitive
insight of the immediate moment. In lightning flash moment, the vividness, the color, the
sound, the texture and the fabric of reality are manifested and instantaneously it is gone. All
karmic propensities and the entire mystery of life and death are in this instantaneous moment of
arising and ceasing. It is not else where, it is the depth of clarity that matters. It takes the
perfect mental clarity of the Blessed One to penetrate to the deepest depth of this moment. Do
not overlook it.
My 2 cents.
Forum Topic: what is the name of the part of you that experiences
rebirth
There is no doer... there is only doing. So no doer... how can there be a 'who'?
This might seems like a puzzle or a riddle but it is not. Very few people will ever believe this...
much less Mr CK.
However, under deep meditation, this can be seem or realised. It is the super fast referencing
(cause and effect) of the sequence of thoughts that cause an impression of a 'self' observing and
doing things. However, the 'sense of self or I' is just in the sequences of thoughts. There is no
observer (self) of these actions => no doer of any action at all.
quote:

There is no doer... there is only doing. So no doer... how can there be a 'who'?
This might seems like a puzzle or a riddle but it is not. Very few people will ever believe
this... much less Mr CK.
However, under deep meditation, this can be seem or realised. It is the super fast
referencing (cause and effect) of the sequence of thoughts that cause an impression of a
'self' observing and doing things. However, the 'sense of self or I' is just in the sequences
of thoughts. There is no observer (self) of these actions => no doer of any action at all.
It is such a blessing after 15 years of "I Am" to come to this point . Beware that the habitual
tendencies will try its very best to take back what it has lost. Get use to doing nothing. Eat
God, taste God, see God and touch God.
Congrads.
quote:
It is such a blessing after 15 years of "I Am" to come to this point . Beware that the
habitual tendencies will try its very best to take back what it has lost. Get use to doing
nothing. Eat God, taste God, see God and touch God.
Congrads.
Still got some way to go before Emptiness and Dharmakaya in full can be experienced.
Must thank you for all the help, Thusness

quote:
Still got some way to go before Emptiness and Dharmakaya in full can be experienced.
Must thank you for all the help, Thusness
Just this happening is the Unmanifest. Be Mr. nobody and spend not even a thought moment
for the source, just the manifestation that is empty. The arising and the ceasing have no point of
origin, no where to be found, no a thing, nothing attained.
quote:

Just this happening is the Unmanifest. Be Mr. nobody and spend not even a thought
moment for the source, just the manifestation that is empty. The arising and the ceasing
have no point of origin, no where to be found, no a thing, nothing attained.
Got it!
Thanks Thusness
quote:
Got it!
Thanks Thusness
I know you have got it.
Make no attempt to accept or reject anything, all are just this manifestation.
Lastly the teaching of no-self and emptiness is so profound and what that is experienced is but
a figment. Though you are new age, know the affinity and with deepest sincerity and all
respect, pay homage to the Blessed One for his compassion and teachings. Get connected and
walk on!
Happy Journey.
Unmanifested is Manifestation (Source:

Forum Topic:
Discussion Forum)
Note: Xsurf here is me posting in the Closing Gaps Spiritual
Discussion Forum according to Thusnesss instruction on what to
post.
Xsurf: Thread Started on Jul 30, 2006, 10:11am
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
Simpo: Reply #1 on Jul 31, 2006, 4:57am
Wow ..
That's profound. Thanks for the sharing
Think of the uni-manifested and we will have a 'manifested concept' of 'IT'.
Flow along... ultimately there is no subject-object division... Subject-object division being a

hypnotic impression...creating the impression of striving and outward externalisation.
However, there's something that puzzles my ever inquisitive mind... that is how did all the
atoms and molecules fits into the scheme of thing. Scientist have postulated the dynamics of
the world based on atomics and other particles. We know that ultimately these dynamics are
concepts for the understanding of the physical universe and all deductions are conceptual
interpretation of physicality. Scientist must still observe and deduce the world based on
deductions gathered from our senses. I guess ultimately atoms and molecules are also
'conceptual' too.
My take is that our senses are also interpretations of an otherwise 'empty universe'. The
senses sort of pick up vibrations in empty space. It is like a bat throws out echo into space
and get a impression of something from empty spaces.
Xsurf: Reply #2 on Jul 31, 2006, 8:54am
Because I am a Buddhist, I'll be posting from Buddhism's point of view. It is not 'conceptual'
but karmic strength in Buddhism that defines the relationship of the atoms and particles.
Sensation and impression are labels defined by a dualistic mind. When we name and label
them as such, it will have subtle power over us so subtle that it may go undetected. Our mind
will be confused by these definitions until we are able to go beyond the effect of these subtle
imprints and stabilize our intuitive experience, further understanding of the source will be
limited because in Buddhism it is this intuitive mind (not the conceptual mind) that can
understand the source.
Oh I see...
Thanks for the sharing

Bob: Reply #5 on Aug 2, 2006, 9:31am
Dear Xsurf & Simpo,

Thank you for the very intriguing concepts. <G>..(I don`t know how to add smilies...lol)
All that we experience are concepts; there is nothing else. All of our understanding, all our
memories and knowledge is conceptual. Even all of our thoughts and intuition are conceptual
based upon conceptual sense data.
Therefore, Xsurf, karma is a concept also. Our concepts are our truths; our reality, but reality
is not actuality, which is the source.
bob
Simpo: Reply #6 on Aug 2, 2006, 11:02am
Aug 2, 2006, 9:31am, bob wrote:

Dear Xsurf & Simpo,
Thank you for the very intriguing concepts. <G>..(I don`t know how to add
smilies...lol)
All that we experience are concepts; there is nothing else. All of our
understanding, all our memories and knowledge is conceptual. Even all of
our thoughts and intuition are conceptual based upon conceptual sense
data.
Therefore, Xsurf, karma is a concept also. Our concepts are our truths; our
reality, but reality is not actuality, which is the source.
bob
Dear Bob,
That sure clears up lots of conceptual confusion. Thanks so much.
regards
simpo
Xsurf: Reply #7 on Aug 2, 2006, 11:52am

Dear Xsurf & Simpo,
Thank you for the very intriguing concepts. <G>..(I don`t know how to add
smilies...lol)
All that we experience are concepts; there is nothing else. All of our
understanding, all our memories and knowledge is conceptual. Even all of
our thoughts and intuition are conceptual based upon conceptual sense
data.
Therefore, Xsurf, karma is a concept also. Our concepts are our truths; our
reality, but reality is not actuality, which is the source.
bob
Thanks for your reply...
See deep silence as flow,

See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.

Dear Forum,
Xsurf posted: "See deep silence as flow,

See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux."
I like this, but I would say if I were writing this....
"See actuality as potential reality." It is the same, but is using modern terms, and little
different twist of the concept involved.
There is a question in all of this that we must ask ourselves. And the question is: "What is
more important to us; our reality or the actuality?"
bob
Xsurf: Reply #9 on Aug 9, 2006, 12:30pm
Interesting....pure subjectivity.... Is pure subjectivity within a conceptual realm?

hi Xserf,
Nope! Concepts require sensual objects such as seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, & smelling.
In other words, a concept requires You, and the impact of anything that is not You. The
impact of the anything that is not you and your analysis of it, (judgement), is your reality, or a
concept. Beliefs and abstractions also fall into this category, but they must be accepted as
having an impact upon you.
I don`t know it this makes any sense to you?
bob
Xsurf: Reply #11 on Aug 10, 2006, 11:46am

hi Xserf,
Nope! Concepts require sensual objects such as seeing, hearing, feeling,

tasting, & smelling. In other words, a concept requires You, and the impact
of anything that is not You. The impact of the anything that is not you and
your analysis of it, (judgement), is your reality, or a concept. Beliefs and
abstractions also fall into this category, but they must be accepted as
having an impact upon you.
I don`t know it this makes any sense to you?
bob
Yes Bob, I understand what you meant.
Very often it is understood that beingness is in the experience of "I AM", even without the
words and label of "I AM", the 'pure sense of existence', the presence still IS. It is a state of
resting in Beingness.
But in Buddhism, it is also possible to experience everything, every moment the

unmanifested.
The key also lies in 'You' but it is to "see" that there is no 'You' instead. It is to 'see' that there
is never any do-er standing in the midst of phenomenal arising. There is just mere happening
due to emptiness nature, never an 'I' doing anything. When the 'I' subsides, symbols, labels
and the entire layer of conceptual realm goes with it. What is left without a 'doer' is a mere
happening.
And seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting and smelling and not only that, everything appears as
purely spontaneous manifestation. A whole Presence of the manifold.

Well put Xsurf! And what you describe, is subjectivity. It is awareness that everything is but
you; there is nothing else. There is only I. There is no AM. Am is an object, and therfore, is a
concept; a thought form.
bob
Forum Topic: how true is this website?

Longchen: 06 August 2006 12:54 AM
me 2 cents...
Time is illusory. We are like waves on a ocean. The waves are on the surface and it has lot of
reflection(phenomonality). Attention clings onto reflection... believing them to be permanent at
each moment...this causes the impression of time.
Thusness: 06 August 2006 12:14 PM
quote:

me 2 cents...
Time is illusory. We are like waves on a ocean. The waves are on the surface and it has lot
of reflection(phenomonality). Attention clings onto reflection... believing them to be
permanent at each moment...this causes the impression of time.
Ai yoo...why sink back to "Apparent in Real"....but anyway time to take a break.
You may want to take leisure read on the 5 degree of Tozan.

http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=198803
The doctrine of no-self cuts through everything and bring us face to face with emotion,
impression, sensation, thoughtsand all mental states, directly seeing no one there, just it!
Next one must go beyond the subtle imprints of words and labels and sees the essence of these
sensations, impressions and all mental states. Just like laying a book on a patch of grass
leaving a temporary imprint, words and labels create these subtle imprints that confuse the
mind. It will take 2-3 years before the experience of Real in the Apparent is stabilized.
Dissolve completely (self and all views including your scientific views) into the incredible
realness and vividness of the Apparent.
If we spend even a thought moment sinking back to the source, we immediately fall prey to the
habitual energy and descend back to the Apparent in the Real. This makes no-self a dead
AMness.
From the experience of the Real in Apparent, everything is the One Mind; there is nothing
else. The non-inherent nature creates all manifestations in lightning flash moments and the
Apparent becomes the otherness. Great mystics though experienced the Apparent in the
Real knows not the emptiness nature seek the invisible from the visible, hold tightly to the
formless. Not knowing that neither the form nor formless are both notions of the marvelous
activities of emptiness nature. Get used to this experience and dont waste your
experience.....but it will take some years...happy journey...
Longchen: 06 August 2006 12:46 PM
quote:
Ai yoo...why sink back to "Apparent in Real"....but anyway time to take a break.
You may want to take leisure read on the 5 degree of Tozan.

The doctrine of no-self cuts through everything and bring us face to face with emotion,
impression, sensation, thoughtsand all mental states, directly seeing no one there, just
it!
Next one must go beyond the subtle imprints of words and labels and sees the essence of
these sensations, impressions and all mental states. Just like laying a book on a patch of
grass leaving a temporary imprint, words and labels create these subtle imprints that
confuse the mind. It will take 2-3 years before the experience of Real in the Apparent is
stabilized. Dissolve completely (self and all views including your scientific views) into the
incredible realness and vividness of the Apparent.
If we spend even a thought moment sinking back to the source, we immediately fall prey
to the habitual energy and descend back to the Apparent in the Real. This makes no-
self a dead AMness.
From the experience of the Real in Apparent, everything is the One Mind; there is
nothing else. The non-inherent nature creates all manifestations in lightning flash
moments and the Apparent becomes the otherness. Great mystics though experienced
the Apparent in the Real knows not the emptiness nature seek the invisible from the
visible, hold tightly to the formless. Not knowing that neither the form nor formless are
both notions of the marvelous activities of emptiness nature. Get used to this experience
and dont waste your experience.....but it will take some years...happy journey...
Alamak...
Thanks so much for pointing that out again
Forum Topic: Living in the present

La lapine blanche: 14 August 2006 04:59 PM
Just want to clarify this. Generally I understand the concept of living in the present moment,
feeling current sensations and feelings, being aware of thoughts, etc. But there are a few
examples that confuse me:
1. I am a teacher and I spend a large amount of my working time planning tomorrow's lessons
or next week's lessons. This is necessary for my job. Does this mean I am not living in the
present?
2. If you are an academic and your career involves researching abstract concepts, thinking
about them, writing research on them, does this mean you are escaping from the present by
doing this?
3. If you enter the "flow state" (popular term in American psychology, meaning losing all sense
of time because you are so absorbed in what you're doing) would that be bad in Buddhism
because you lost track of time passing and therefore the present reality?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
thanks
LB
quote:

Just want to clarify this. Generally I understand the concept of living in the present
moment, feeling current sensations and feelings, being aware of thoughts, etc. But there
are a few examples that confuse me:
1. I am a teacher and I spend a large amount of my working time planning tomorrow's

lessons or next week's lessons. This is necessary for my job. Does this mean I am not
living in the present?
2. If you are an academic and your career involves researching abstract concepts,
thinking about them, writing research on them, does this mean you are escaping from
the present by doing this?
3. If you enter the "flow state" (popular term in American psychology, meaning losing
all sense of time because you are so absorbed in what you're doing) would that be bad in
Buddhism because you lost track of time passing and therefore the present reality?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
thanks
LB
Hi LB,
You may want to look more deeply into non-action, i.e., plan but not be attached to outcome.
When engaging with conceptual models, just work within the laws and conditions of the model.
This is analogous to our buddha nature working day in and day out within the conditions of
our five senses yet not limited by it.
Before stabilization of our experience of Presence, there will be confusion. No-self is a very
distinct phase of our practices; without going through this phase, we will not be able to replace
our conceptual mode of knowing with intuitiveness and directness. This is known as the
turning point. From intuitive workings into spontaneity will take some time.
La lapine blanche: 16 August 2006 04:51 AM
Thusness,
Thanks for the post, I'm really interested in what you said but not sure I've fully understood.
"Stabilization of our experience of Presence" - at the moment I only feel "present" sometimes,
like when I can be bothered to meditate or when I remind myself to climb the stairs mindfully,
etc. So I guess what you mean by "stabilization of experience of Presence" is when I come to
feel this all the time?
You're quite right that I don't really go beyond conceptual thinking at all yet. I think that's why
I'm struggling to understand a lot of things. Like emptiness - I kind of see the concept of "no
inherent self" like I am just a collection of genes, cells, influences on my past, experiences,
environment, etc. but I haven't really deeply grasped it because I still feel a strong sense of
"me"!
quote:
Thusness,
Thanks for the post, I'm really interested in what you said but not sure I've fully
understood.
"Stabilization of our experience of Presence" - at the moment I only feel "present"

sometimes, like when I can be bothered to meditate or when I remind myself to climb
the stairs mindfully, etc. So I guess what you mean by "stabilization of experience of
Presence" is when I come to feel this all the time?
You're quite right that I don't really go beyond conceptual thinking at all yet. I think
that's why I'm struggling to understand a lot of things. Like emptiness - I kind of see the
concept of "no inherent self" like I am just a collection of genes, cells, influences on my
past, experiences, environment, etc. but I haven't really deeply grasped it because I still
feel a strong sense of "me"!
Hi LB,
Not exactly. Continuous sustainability of Presence all the time is the result of the awakening of
our prajna wisdom that will lead to the experience of all phenomenon manifestation as
unconditional spontaneous arising. It is not the result of effort or the strength of habitual
energy.
The beginning of clarity and stabilization starts when we begin to break loose a deeply held
'bond' in our consciousness -- A hypnotic bond that is like a magical spell bonding us to our
thoughts, body and self. Feel the power of this bond. It is just a form of identification and
nothing else yet it has such power over us. Realizing this will help loosen the power of symbols
over us, thus bringing us one step closer to the natural state. We will realize that we are in the
right track when we notice an acute sharpening of all our senses. We feel very clear, light and
bright and thoughts will lessen naturally. Thought at this level begins to play a secondary role.
We gather strength when Presence beams and radiates.
Lastly be thorough in no-self. We need not worry too much. The Presence experienced from
the practice of mindfulness will prevent the over-negation. instead, it will refine the
understanding of our true nature.
PS: 'Mindfulness in Plain English' is a good guide. You may want to grab it.
Forum Topic: Is reality like quantum physics?

quote:
Fantastic
Consciousness is in-built with knowingness. But this knowingness is mistaken for a

doer/self.
makes sense ??
wow...! Time to be dead to Presence.

longchen: 24 August 2006 07:24 PM
quote:
You mean intellect? Yea... intellect is also a function of consciousness.. and often
mistaken to be self.
Hmm... Thusness very 'chim'... dunno whether he meant i got it right or wrong. Heheh...
Anyway... no.. i am not referring to the intellect. what i propose is that..

awareness/knowingness is there...but we think that this awareness is a 'self, I or person'. We
think that it is 'I' that knows... but it is really consciousness that knows. No person knowing...
but just knowing. Because there is knowingness, the belief of 'a self' comes about.
quote:
Hmm... Thusness very 'chim'... dunno whether he meant i got it right or wrong.
Heheh...
Anyway... no.. i am not referring to the intellect. what i propose is that..

awareness/knowingness is there...but we think that this awareness is a 'self, I or person'.
We think that it is 'I' that knows... but it is really consciousness that knows. No person
knowing... but just knowing. Because there is knowingness, the belief of 'a self' comes
about.
Yes. There is a great difference between 'self' and our pristine awareness. One is an agent
housing emotions, feelings, thinking...and so on and so forth...the other is the experience of
empty phenomenon rolling on as described by Buddhaghosa. There is never a doer doing
anything from start, a point of centricity and locality is not the way to understand this
knowingness. We are molded and led to this idea of 'self' by our entire cultural, language and
the manifold of phenomonal world. When we experience phenomenal world in raw, we find
delight in no-self and dependent origination.
Next, going beyond symbols and labels, one experiences manifestation directly as the
luminous presence of knowingness. Phenomenal arising is the result of emptiness nature
manifesting from moment to moment. There is no one experiencing and therefore sinking
back to a source is a subtle attachment and the result of our symbolic habitual energy. But
this experience of presence can become an object of attachment that we must let go. The
letting go must be very thorough in terms of mental detachment. We don't have to worry
about Presence. What we have to worry is our attachment.
GTG...Makan time...
Forum Topic: All stories are told by the mind

Longchen: 12 September 2006 10:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Cenarious:

did I say I was a mind? I am the awareness behind the mind.
Awareness is not behind the mind. The mystics who describe this thinks that there is an
observer(self) watching the mind(thoughts)... This is I AM. I also thought so too in the past...
until Thusness probed me to re-investigate the dynamics in deep meditation again.
Truth is, there is no observer. Awareness and knowingness is in-built in Mind. There is no
division...
my 2 cents
Thusness: 12 September 2006 11:20 PM
quote:
Awareness is not behind the mind. The mystics who describe this thinks that there is an
observer(self) watching the mind(thoughts)... This is I AM. I also thought so too in the
past... until Thusness probed me to re-investigate the dynamics in deep meditation
again.
Truth is, there is no observer. Awareness and knowingness is in-built in Mind. There is
no division...
my 2 cents
Yes Longchen,
With "I", knowing is always conceptual and thought bound. When we realised that there is
really no one there from beginning, knowingness is one clear Presence that is really everything.
Spiritual journey begins when one first experienced the pure sense of existence. However when
we are unable to fully understand the experience and the implication of dependent origination,
we misinterpreted the experience as the I AM. The rest of our journey is the unfolding and
the further refinement of our understanding of this I AM. It will take many years of practice
and right conditions for one to come to this realization that the I AM is really a mistaken
identity. In fact it is the ultimate block that prevents us from knowing our true nature.
When I persists, reality is thought-like and conceptual. When the 'I' subsides, everything is
realised as the one Reality. There is no crystal clear mirror reflecting anything, the
manifestation itself is sufficient. Sinking back ito an 'I', to a 'Witness' is problem of all
problems. All along the clear mirror doesn't exist, all along there is just one hand clapping,
there second hand doesnt exist.
Do put in all effort into mastering the art of letting go. If we can let go of the body, it will help
lessen our thought. Let the body and thought die of their own naturejust let go until a deep
tranquil calm arise. This tranquil calmness is the strength for the sustained experience of
total transparency.
Happy Journey.
Forum Topic: Hi everyone

JonLS: 17 September 2006 01:06 PM
Hi, my name is Jon.
I wanted to ask about the experiences I have been having for the last year. I'm interested if
there is a buddhist explanation for these experiences. Please don't use buddhist terms to
explain unless you also give a definition of these terms since I have very little experience
with the buddhist terminology.
I am particularly attracted to posts by Thusness and would appreciate his guidance here.
The experiences I am going to speak of began about the time I came across a spiritual
teaching from Eckhart Tolle. I noticed that spiritual development or the dropping of concepts
and ideas accelerated greatly after coming into contact with this teaching.
These experiences involve an opening up of what I call the inner dimension which appears to
be at the center of my body, of my being. There is an energy, a presence that seems to flow
outward spontaneously and diffuses upward throughout my body. But I also find this
energy/presence is not really separate from me, I regard is as my essence.
When this opening of the inner dimension started about a year ago, it was very painful, it felt
very corrosive to my being, but this was never a problem because it always felt "right". Over
time, the pain has gradually diminished, I have attributed this to a dissolving of the old egoic
structures and now the energy can flow more freely and there is much less resistance when it
flows.
I have always felt that this presence/energy is the prime mover of spiritual
growth/development in me. The egoic identity is still present but not much of a problem
anymore.
I am at a point now where this energy/presence is guiding me to turn inwards in a more

significant way. I almost get the impression that this inner energy/consciousness is taking
over and my life is not "mine" anymore. It belongs to "It" the pure consciousness that is
arising.
I also feel that this consciousness is present at other times also but I notice it much more
when it flows which happens about once a week or so.
I posted this on another forum and am pasting it here to give you an idea of where I am at:
quote:
It dawned on me today that there is absolutely nothing to know with regards to Truth.
As a matter fact, it's only when you let go of all knowing that Truth reveals Itself.
The kicker is... It was there all the time!
--------------------------------------------
quote:
"Knowing".
If you "know" anything, isn't that the world of form, the world of appearance?
When you "know" doesn't the ego mind reign supreme?
Is there an alternative to "knowing"?
"Being".
Where does "being" originate from?
How do you let go of "knowing" and turn towards the center of your "being".
Why does turning inward toward the "source", toward "being" feel like a death?
Are you more interested in the outer world of appearance than in the "source" of All?
Where is energy, attention being directed?
Outward?
Or inward?
Longchen: 17 September 2006 07:30 PM

Hi Jon,
I understand what you are experiencing as I had these experiences too. I am not at the end of
the path yet... so i can only share from my current point of view.
The presence you felt is not separated from 'you'. The pain that we felt is the egoic mind feeling
threatened of losing its grip and the gradual dissolving of karmic patterns. It is better not to
verify or conceptually distinguish between a 'you' and a Presence that is separated from you.
When its you and when it's Presence are just 'changes of states'.
Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is not
exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in his book..
The Power of Now...
just my opinion... for your necessary discernment.

An Eternal Now: 17 September 2006 10:07 PM
quote:

Hi Jon,
I understand what you are experiencing as I had these experiences too. I am not at the
end of the path yet... so i can only share from my current point of view.
The presence you felt is not separated from 'you'. The pain that we felt is the egoic mind
feeling threatened of losing its grip and the gradual dissolving of karmic patterns. It is
better not to verify or conceptually distinguish between a 'you' and a Presence that is
separated from you. When its you and when it's Presence are just 'changes of states'.
Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is
not exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in
his book.. The Power of Now...
interesting.. What sort of different states are there in the power of now?
quote:

interesting.. What sort of different states are there in the power of now?
I don't have the book with me now...
But... I think he said something like this...
1. Be the witnessing Presence... watching the thinker.

This should be I AM.
2. He also described a time that he has no thoughts for long periods of time.
This is like a state of gap between thinking.
3. Eternal, ever-present one life beyond forms

Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation. There
shouldn't be a 'beyond'.

quote:


Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation.
There shouldn't be a 'beyond'.
Oh I see But anyway about a month ago I showed Thusness an interesting part of an
interview with Eckhart Tolle that took place in 2000. I think he has quite gone beyond 'I AM
Witness' but I am not sure. He asked me when was The Power of Now written? I told him
1997, and he replied that he's in a different stage already. And he said he won't be surprised
that Eckhart Tolle will attain Pratyekabuddhahood... which in Buddhism means a solitary
buddha, given that he has such experience then and many years has past. But in Buddhism
there is a kind of Pratyekabuddha, in fact all Pratyekabuddhas, love solitude so much... that
they will leave society into solitude. An example is Lao Tzu. Hope Eckhart doesn't leave
society
The interview: Ripples on the Surface of Being
(I think sounds very similar to something you wrote? )
quote:
ET: Even when I'm interacting with people or walking in a city, doing ordinary things, the
way I perceive the world is like ripples on the surface of being. Underneath the world of
sense perceptions and the world of mind activity, there is the vastness of being. There's a vast
spaciousness. There's a vast stillness and there's a little ripple activity on the surface, which
isn't separate, just like the ripples are not separate from the ocean.
So there is no separation in the way I perceive it. There is no separation between being and
the manifested world, between the manifested and the unmanifested. But the unmanifested is
so much vaster, deeper, and greater than what happens in the manifested. Every phenomenon
in the manifested is so short-lived and so fleeting that, yes, one could almost say that from the
perspective of the unmanifested, which is the timeless beingness or presence, all that happens
in the manifested realm really seems like a play of shadows. It seems like vapor or mist with
continuously new forms arising and disappearing, arising and disappearing. So to the one
who is deeply rooted in the unmanifested, the manifested could very easily be called unreal. I
don't call it unreal because I see it as not separate from anything.
another one thusness likes:
quote:
ET: Right. It's welcoming this moment, embracing this moment, and that is the state of
surrender. That is really all that's needed. The only difference between a Master and a non-
Master is that the Master embraces what is, totally. When there is nonresistance to what is,
there comes a peace. The portal is open; the unmanifested is there. That is the most powerful
way. We can't call it practice because there's no time in it.
---
edit:
oh well, i tink he wont leave so soon.
quote:
ET: There's not one way that that works. Different ages have certain approaches, which may
be more effective for one age and no longer effective in another age. The world that we live
in now has much greater density to it; it is much more all-pervasive. And when I say "world,"
I include the human mind in it. The human mind has grown even since the time of the
Buddha, 2,500 years ago. The human mind is more noisy and more all-pervasive, and the
egos are bigger. There's been an ego growth over thousands of years; it's growing to a point
of madness, with the ultimate madness having been reached in the twentieth century. One
only needs to read twentieth-century history to see that it has been the climax of human
madness, if it's measured in terms of human violence inflicted on other humans.
So in the present time, we can't escape from the world anymore; we can't escape from the
mind. We need to enter surrender while we are in the world. That seems to be the path
that is effective in the world that we live in now. It may be that at the time of the Buddha,
withdrawing was much, much easier than it would be now. The human mind was not yet so
overwhelming at that time.
Thusness: 18 September 2006 09:25 AM
Hi Jon,
The Presence you experienced is the deepest essence of your being. There is nothing wrong
calling it energy. The experience of tremendous Presence as manifestation of abundant life, as
total vitality is not uncommon.
Any form of blockage for the free flow of this energy is due to identification. Any form of
identification will result in the creation of a Witness sensing something. The Witness is a
misidentification that never existed; this will be become clear as one progresses further.
The pain you suffer is due to a switch between I and Presence that resulted in a split. The
constant switching is due to a very subtle bond that prevents you from seeing your true nature.
It is like a hypnotic spell, it is not easy to break this spell. You must master the art of going
beyond symbols to loosen this bond. You may want to look into insight meditation
(mindfulness) for this. The purpose of going beyond symbols, labels and concepts is to
experience the imageless reality and the veil that prevents us from experiencing this Presence is
the layer after layers of conceptualization. The key is to loosen the habitual propensities that
bond us into seeing things with a layer symbols, it is karmic (Karmic in the sense that it is pre-
conscious and sustained by the seed of attachment. It goes undetected at the conscious level).
Once this bond is loosen, clarity and energy will flow more freely. Before that, division will
cause pain.
When longchen said there is no observer apart from the observed, this is truth and all problems
lie in not understanding this. But the experience must be direct and intuitive.
May you experience total Presence.

quote:
And he said he won't be surprised that Eckhart Tolle will attain Pratyekabuddhahood...
I mean there is a clear transition from I AM to the experience of No-Self. Dissolving to a

background, to the Silence that is the crystal clear mirror is close, but it is not quite there. True
non-duality is the experience of Anatta. There is absolutely no-one there from beginning. This
is a dharma seal. As for Pratyekabuddhahood, it is beyond me to comment.
quote:


Possibly another state... The wording of 'beyond' implies that he sees a separation.
There shouldn't be a 'beyond'.
Yes Longchen,
Very well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and nothing else.
When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides, nothing isn't the one Reality.
Clear transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination into the non-
duality without certain pre-requiste can cause problems. There is always habitual propensities
that will again make this experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go
without sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this new found experience. Many have
mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as a natural progression. This is not
true. Whenever this happens, know that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of
everything until a tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns, there
must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then our thoughts and the
experience of presence...completely letting go from moment to moment...the senses and
thoughts can be shut by this art of letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid
Presence must fuse into one.
Practice during the waking state till the there is no single trace of doubt that there is
absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the incredible realness and vividness of
the manifestation. The experience of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and
there is no witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states and pre-
conscious propensites require one to master this art of non-attachment, non-action. There is
no conscious way of dealing with the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and
allow the momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep well.
Hi Justdoit77,
quote:
Hi Jon,
Can you elaborate more how does this flow of energy affects you spiritualy.
I can use an example to explain. If I am a solid then the energy that flows is a gas, it has no
structure the way I do, that's why I like the term "free flowing". This energy feels free, it is not
fettered in any way. After this energy moves through me, I take on this characteristic of being
freeer, unfettered, but it is not a complete freedom, it seems to be a gradual process, happening
bit by bit. It almost feels like a cleansing, but that's not quite right, more of a freeing up of old
structures.
When the energy/consciousness is flowing nothing else matters at all, it is like a nectar of the
gods. I have tried on many occasions to surrender completely to this energy but somehow I
have not been successful.
Hope this answers your question.

Hi Thusness,
quote:
The Presence you experienced is the deepest essence of your being. There is nothing wrong
calling it energy. The experience of tremendous Presence as manifestation of abundant life,
as total vitality is not uncommon.
It cannot be that common as no one else on the discussion boards I have frequented have
mentioned experiencing this. The only other person I have heard talk of this is Adyashanti, he
is a spiritual teacher coming from a Buddhist background. He speaks of being "touched"
repeatedly and talks about the action of the arising energy as a "roto rooter" action, of getting
rid of all the old internal egoic structures.
quote:
The pain you suffer is due to a switch between I and Presence that resulted in a split. The
constant switching is due to a very subtle bond that prevents you from seeing your true
nature. It is like a hypnotic spell, it is not easy to break this spell. You must master the art of
going beyond symbols to loosen this bond.
I think this bond was broken momentarily after the energy arose this morning. I had the
distinct impression of "seeing" clearly (of seeing things as they really are) and yes! It did feel
like a hypnotic bond was broken but unfortunately the clear seeing only lasted a few
moments and then the veil fell again. There was the distinct seeing that there was "no one
home", that the egoic me was not there, was not real.
This veil lifted like this a year ago also when there was letting go of identification with
thought, but obviously it has not lifted completely yet.
quote:
You must master the art of going beyond symbols to loosen this bond. You may want to look
into insight meditation (mindfulness) for this. The purpose of going beyond symbols, labels
and concepts is to experience the imageless reality and the veil that prevents us from
experiencing this Presence is the layer after layers of conceptualization. The key is to
loosen the habitual propensities that bond us into seeing things with a layer symbols, it is
karmic (Karmic in the sense that it is pre-conscious and sustained by the seed of attachment.
It goes undetected at the conscious level). Once this bond is loosen, clarity and energy will
flow more freely. Before that, division will cause pain.
You are suggesting that I look into insight meditation, yet I am at a stage where I feel there is
absolutely nothing I can do to help this process along, since there is no "me" that can do
anything anyway. The best I can do is get out of my own way!!!
This is a quote from Eckhart Tolle that shows what I saying above:
quote:
"In my book The Power of Now, I mention ways in which you can maintain present moment
awareness, but the main thing is to allow this new state of consciousness to emerge rather
than believe that you have to try hard to make it happen. How do you allow it to emerge?
Simply by allowing this moment to be as it is. This means to relinquish inner resistance to
what is the suchness of now. This allows life to unfold beautifully. There is no greater
spiritual practice than this."
I also feel strongly that the impetus for spiritual growth is coming from within, from this
energy/presence. "I" am totally helpless and as a matter of fact, "I" am the problem!
However, if you see or sense anything that may be beneficial, I would appreciate your
feedback.
quote:
When longchen said there is no observer apart from the observed, this is truth and all
problems lie in not understanding this. But the experience must be direct and intuitive.
I agree 100% here!
Thank you for your reply.

Longchen,
You mentioned you have had similar experiences to mine in the past, could you please
elaborate. Have those experiences stopped?
quote:
Also... there is no separate 'self' observing the mind. Some of Eckhart Tolles writing is not
exactly accurate. There was not just one state but various states being described in his book..
The Power of Now...
I agree with what you say here but there is one thing I would like to mention. Eckhart speaks of
meeting people in the noise and guiding them into the silence, perhaps his descriptions were
meant for people just starting out on the path.
quote:
Originally posted by JonLS:

Longchen,
You mentioned you have had similar experiences to mine in the past, could you please
elaborate. Have those experiences stopped?
I agree with what you say here but there is one thing I would like to mention. Eckhart
speaks of meeting people in the noise and guiding them into the silence, perhaps his
descriptions were meant for people just starting out on the path.
Hi Jon,
Those experiences have not stop.. but i am not so bothered about whether they come or not...
as compared to the past. In another word, i do not seek for certain experiences as much.
I am now more into the process of 'letting go'... a subtle letting go brought about by
spontaneous/intuitive self-recognisition.
What i have noticed is that gripping and seeking is a most prevalent tendency of the human
mind... both before and after the first awakening to Presence. In fact, suffering comes from
the gripping and seeking...The human mind sticks to any expereinces that it likes and rejects
any expereinces that it dislike... both are forms of attachments. So i guess the key is subtle
letting go... that is uncontrived.
regards.. just my opinion though

quote:
I think this bond was broken momentarily after the energy arose this morning. I had
the distinct impression of "seeing" clearly (of seeing things as they really are) and yes!
It did feel like a hypnotic bond was broken but unfortunately the clear seeing only
lasted a few moments and then the veil fell again. There was the distinct seeing that
there was "no one home", that the egoic me was not there, was not real.
This veil lifted like this a year ago also when there was letting go of identification with
thought, but obviously it has not lifted completely yet.
ic...
If we listen attentively, the sound, is it out there?
If we open our eyes and see, the sky, is it up there?
If there is the slightest sensation that it is either outside there or inside here, the bond is at
work. This is how subtle it can be.
quote:
"I" am the problem!
I like the way you expressed it, but if there is no one there from beginning, how does "I" am the
problem comes about?
This is the difference between having a level to achieve by doing away the 'I' and nothing is
attained ultimately. The 'bond' breaks from a deep clarity of insight that 'I' never existed,
therefore all effort to do-away the 'I' is illusionary and all effort directed is to bring us to this
realisation.
Good luck!
Hi JonLS and LongChen,
I believe these 2 account of experiences will sound familar to both of ya ....

It is the experience of "I AM"...just for sharing...
Stage 1: The experience of I AM

It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of Before birth, who am I. I do
not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend days and nights
just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a
complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise. There is merely nothing and
completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is
it? It is not the body, not thought as there is no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself.
There is no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It is as if

life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this expression. However
at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this experience is and how I
have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The experience of I AM Everything

It seems that my experience is supported by many Advanta and Hindu teachings. But the
biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the doctrine of
no-self, about no I. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct contradiction with what I
experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could not appreciate why Buddha has
taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the
fusing of everything into Me but somehow there is no me. It is like an I-less I. I somehow
accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without
boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I wrote a poem
(something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the blueness
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real that the I
Therefore Buddha, `
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This
phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence
but somehow there is always this blockage, this something preventing me from recapturing
the experience. It is the inability to fully die into total Presence...
JonLS: 20 September 2006 04:32 AM
When I woke up this morning there was a recognition that mind activity and identification with
the body will not get me where I want to go. Both seem to have been dropped spontaneously.
This afternoon the energy/presence flowed but in a more natural way as if it is going to be a
permanent state from now on.
There is a recognition that the only thing necessary is to allow the present moment to manifest
as it will. No efforting, no understanding, no practicing of any kind is needed. Any attempt to
do these would deviate from the natural flow.
Surrender is what is needed.
That alone.
All that is needed is coming from within.

quote:
Hi JonLS and LongChen,
I believe these 2 account of experiences will sound familar to both of ya ....

It is the experience of "I AM"...just for sharing...
Stage 1: The experience of I AM

It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of Before birth, who am
I. I do not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend
days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day,
everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought
arise. There is merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence.
This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is it? It is not the body, not thought as there is
no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There is no need for anyone to
authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It

is as if life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this
expression. However at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this
experience is and how I have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The experience of I AM Everything

It seems that my experience is supported by many Advanta and Hindu teachings. But
the biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the
doctrine of no-self, about no I. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct
contradiction with what I experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could
not appreciate why Buddha has taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma
Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into Me but somehow there
is no me. It is like an I-less I. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist
that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release
without boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I
wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the blueness
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real that the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me.
This phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience
of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total
Presence but somehow there is always this blockage, this something preventing me
from recapturing the experience. It is the inability to fully die into total Presence...
I have never read anything so beautiful.
Thank you.
quote:

When I woke up this morning there was a recognition that mind activity and
identification with the body will not get me where I want to go. Both seem to have been
dropped spontaneously.
This afternoon the energy/presence flowed but in a more natural way as if it is going to
be a permanent state from now on.
There is a recognition that the only thing necessary is to allow the present moment to
manifest as it will. No efforting, no understanding, no practicing of any kind is needed.
Any attempt to do these would deviate from the natural flow.
Surrender is what is needed.
That alone.
All that is needed is coming from within.
Yes. What you said is perfectly right. I will like to share with you 4 more points.
quote:
I have never read anything so beautiful.
Thank you.
Thanks.
3. Entering into a state of nothingness

Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me
from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense of totality. It was
both logically and intuitively clear that I is the problem. It is the I that is blocking; it is the
I that is the limit; it is the I that is the boundary but why cant I do away with it? At that
point in time it didnt occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what
awareness is all about, instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of
oblivious to rid the I...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are
many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times but with
few months of gap)
However I came to one important understanding

The I is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into
complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.
Hi Thusness,
quote:
. Entering into a state of nothingness

Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and
preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense
of totality. It was both logically and intuitively clear that I is the problem. It is the I
that is blocking; it is the I that is the limit; it is the I that is the boundary but why
cant I do away with it? At that point in time it didnt occur to me that I should look
into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was too
occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to rid the I...this continues
for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are many other minor events and the
experience of total presence did occur many times but with few months of gap)
However I came to one important understanding

The I is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender
into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.
I am really surprised to read this.
You are wanting an experience to come back.
You are wanting to do away with the "I".
This seems paradoxical.
Because it is the "I" that sees a problem.
It is the the "I" that wants the present moment to be different than what it is.
It is the "I" that has expectations as to how things should be.
If there were total surrender to the present moment without expectations would there be a
different outcome?
If there were complete surrender, would it matter if the outcome were not different?
quote:

Hi Thusness,
I am really surprised to read this.
You are wanting an experience to come back.
You are wanting to do away with the "I".
This seems paradoxical.
Because it is the "I" that sees a problem.
It is the the "I" that wants the present moment to be different than what it is.
It is the "I" that has expectations as to how things should be.
If there were total surrender to the present moment without expectations would there
be a different outcome?
If there were complete surrender, would it matter if the outcome were not different?
Yes it is, it is paradoxical and a journey into naturalness seems to require one to come face to
face with this paradox.
The 13+ years journey is always 'do nothing and let divine happening unfolds.'
I want to share with you the experience of the mirror bright clarity tonight.
Followed by the experience of no-mirror and lastly Emptiness. Hope they will helpful to you.
4. Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity

I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the
experience of Presence but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I
experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by
financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on
the aspect of Presence. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in
Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the
missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasnt that resistant then about the doctrine of no-self but the idea that all phenomenon
existence is empty of an inherent self or Self did not quite get into me. Are they talking
about the Self as a personality or Self as Eternal Witness? Must we do away even with
the Witness itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
There is thinking, no thinker

There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating the above stanza deeplyabout its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard
tongss, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And
tongs resounding. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of I AM.it is
without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any
in-betweenWhat is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not I AM, it is not asking who
am I, it is not the pure sense of I AM, it is TONGSss., the pure Sound
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else.
The heart beats..
the Scenery
There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise

There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
There is no entry and exit point
There is no Sound out there or in here
There is no I apart from the arising and ceasing
The manifold of Presence.
Moment to moment Presences unfolds
Presence is the Crystal Bright Clarity
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for sharing "Presence as a mirror brightly".
quote:
The 13+ years journey is always 'do nothing and let divine happening unfolds.'
quote:
I wasnt that resistant then about the doctrine of no-self but the idea that all
phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent self or Self did not quite get into me.
Are they talking about the Self as a personality or Self as Eternal Witness? Must
we do away even with the Witness itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?

I was meditating the above stanza deeply
I was noticing the contradiction between the first quote and the other two quotes where there
is a sense of a doer and something to be done or something to be resolved.
And I was remembering my own postings in this thread.

There is inconsistency there also.
I started off asking you for guidance, for advice.
And then I end up posting that asking for advice from others is denying your own true nature.
This truly is an amazing journey, is it not?

5. No mirror Reflecting
Written too much
When every single moment is purely nothing but the unfolding of total presence under
differing conditions, there is only chirping birds, drum beats, foot steps, sky,
mountainthere never was a Witness hiding anywhere!
There is no mirror reflecting

All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!
Happy Journey.
quote:

5. No mirror Reflecting
Written too much
When every single moment is purely nothing but the unfolding of total presence under
differing conditions, there is only chirping birds, drum beats, foot steps, sky,
mountainthere never was a Witness hiding anywhere!

The one hand claps
Everything IS!
Happy Journey.
End of story.
Thanks for the advices, Thusness. I seriously think that this must be documented formally. It
is too important.
quote:
End of story.
Thanks for the advices, Thusness. I seriously think that this must be documented
formally. It is too important.
I think.. not yet.. one more

quote:
I think.. not yet.. one more
Oh... cut cut!! Not end of story

quote:
End of story.
Thanks for the advices, Thusness. I seriously think that this must be documented
formally. It is too important.
Hi Longchen,
After some thoughtto prevent one from getting overly excited about the experience of total
vitality, total intelligence, total luminous clarity aspect of our pristine awareness and forgot
about the importance of causes and conditions
6. The nature Presence is Empty

Not only is there no who in pristine awareness, there is no where and when.
Pristine Awareness cannot be contained within a 6-foot body -- neither within nor without.
The bond makes it so.
All is Presence! But TONGSss is radically different from the blue sky.
When conditions are, there is. There is no need for a 'who', when or where, only causes
and conditions are necessary. This is its nature.
When there is this, that is.

With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
-- the principle of conditionality
The self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and cannot
be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the
conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be
found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.
quote:
Hi Longchen,
After some thoughtto prevent one from getting overly excited about the experience of
total vitality, total intelligence, total luminous clarity aspect of our pristine awareness
and forgot about the importance of causes and conditions

Pristine Awareness cannot be contained within a 6-foot body -- neither within nor
without. The bond makes it so.
When conditions are, there is. There is no need for a 'who', when or where, only
causes and conditions are necessary. This is its nature.

The self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and
cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with
the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where
to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.
Oh i see.. Thanks. I do not fully understand part 6 yet. But will just let things unfold...
Thanks again Thusness.

quote:

Oh i see.. Thanks. I do not fully understand part 6 yet. But will just let things unfold...
Thanks again Thusness.
It will help clear the last trace of the falling back to a source.
Hi Thusness,
I see you are a 53 year old male and that you are married.
Once, when I was travelling through India, I met a psychiatrist.
The first thing he asked me was "Are you happy or are you married?"
He was joking of course!
Wasn't he???
I'm a 55 year old bachelor from Canada. I was able to retire this year and am now living a life
of leisure which is great because I can focus on my one true passion!
The present moment!!!
You mentioned that you went through a difficult financial situation a while ago. How did it
turn out? Did you recover from it?
quote:

Hi Thusness,
I see you are a 53 year old male and that you are married.
I am 39.
The experience came when I was 18 and it continues to unfold till today. Yes I am happy
with my marriage and my wife has been very supportive mentally during the financial crisis.
In the "no mirror reflecting" I did not write much about certain experiences, I do not know
how to express it. I was in Korea with my family and my relatives, there is a sudden outburst
of energy and the clarity was tremendous...It just came! The 'bond' must have broken loose, I
thought I will just float...lol (The rapture was intense)
I experience incredible bliss over a period of 3+ months in total transparency. Much more
intense than all other previous experiences.
I agree with you that Presence cannot be contained by any religion and there is no monopoly
over truth. My deep respect for Buddha is the amazing depth of his clarity, insight and
compassion and of course the 'missing link' that I most needed to live as pure consciousness.
The rest are culture.
quote:
You mentioned that you went through a difficult financial situation a while ago. How
did it turn out? Did you recover from it?
Yes...I managed to pull through and am planning to retire in 3 years. Been hinting to my wife
that I want to spend time for my spiritual development...hahaha...I think she is mentally
prepared. Just "no monk"! I do not want to waste my life in endless mundane pursue. Thanks.
quote:
I'm a 55 year old bachelor from Canada. I was able to retire this year and am now
living a life of leisure which is great because I can focus on my one true passion!
No wonder u can just 'drop' everything right in the immediate moment

Hi Thusness,
quote:

I was meditating the above stanza deeplyabout its meaning until one day, suddenly I
heard tongss, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else!
And tongs resounding. It was so clear, so vivid!
quote:
In the "no mirror reflecting" I did not write much about certain experiences, I do not
know how to express it. I was in Korea with my family and my relatives, there is a
sudden outburst of energy and the clarity was tremendous...It just came! The 'bond'
must have broken loose, I thought I will just float...lol (The rapture was intense)
In the first paragraph, you heard "tongss", in the second paragraph there was a sudden
outburst of energy and tremendous clarity.
My question for you is do you think that you did something that caused the events to happen
or do you think they just happened spontaneously, randomly.
The reason I ask is because the teaching by Tony Parsons says that all events such as you
describe, and also enlightenment itself happen spontaneously. There is the appearance that
you have done something to bring it about but this is just appearance, it is not real.
What do you think?
quote:
Yes...I managed to pull through and am planning to retire in 3 years. Been hinting to
my wife that I want to spend time for my spiritual development...hahaha...I think she is
mentally prepared. Just "no monk"! I do not want to waste my life in endless mundane
pursue. Thanks.
You are going to retire at 42 years of age. Wow. Good for you.
I hope your wife lets you.
I agree with you completely about not wanting to waste time with mundane pursuits. I am so
glad I don't have to work and waste time earning money anymore. Although I don't think it
would change my spiritual development very much if I was very busy. The desire for spiritual
development would still remain as strong.
Hi Thusness,
I'm sorry to bother you again but I just thought of something else.
As I was rereading your experiences and it occured to me that all the teachings I have read
have said that experience is not "it".
That experience is just part of the story of becoming , it is part of ego, of appearance.
We are the clear radiant present moment awareness, that is completely free and unfettered
NOW.
In your description of your beautiful experiences were you fully identified with the
experiences?
I sense there is a point that you have arrived at where what I have just written above is not
true. Such as when you mention no more witnessing presence.
So it seems to me that the experience of no "I" would be no experience at all, but just "being".
Could you clarify please?

quote:

Hi Thusness,
I'm sorry to bother you again but I just thought of something else.
As I was rereading your experiences and it occured to me that all the teachings I have
read have said that experience is not "it".
That experience is just part of the story of becoming , it is part of ego, of appearance.
We are the clear radiant present moment awareness, that is completely free and
unfettered NOW.
In your description of your beautiful experiences were you fully identified with the
experiences?
I sense there is a point that you have arrived at where what I have just written above is
not true. Such as when you mention no more witnessing presence.
So it seems to me that the experience of no "I" would be no experience at all, but just
"being".
Could you clarify please?
Hi JonLS,
Whatever you experienced and whatever you said is right. It is the degree of clarity. Do not
have doubt about these experiences. The way Presence is unfolding in you is
amazingPerhaps your life experiences has helped in the rapid unfolding. It is the
thoroughness of being nobody.
For the purpose of discussion, I would like to introduce you one concept, it is the "seed of
pre-conscious propensities";. It is a layer of bond that prevents us from seeing
somethingit is very subtle, very thin, very fineit goes almost undetected. What this
bond does is it prevents us from seeing what WITNESS really is and makes us
constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center . Every moment we want
to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is habitual and
almost hypnotic.
But what exactly is this witness we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It is the
appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source! Including
the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is really it. There is
nothing to choose.

Manifestation alone IS.
There is no invisible witness hiding anywhere. Whenever we attempt to fall back to this an
invisible transparent image , it is again the mind game of thought. It is the bond at work. I
wonder this make sense to you.
Dear Thusness,
quote:
Hi JonLS,
Whatever you experienced and whatever you said is right. It is the degree of clarity. Do
not have doubt about these experiences. The way Presence is unfolding in you is
amazingPerhaps your life experiences has helped in the rapid unfolding. It is the
thoroughness of being nobody.
For the purpose of discussion, I would like to introduce you one concept, it is the "seed
of pre-conscious propensities";;. It is a layer of bond that prevents us from seeing
constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center . Every moment we
want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is
habitual and almost hypnotic.
But what exactly is this witness we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It
is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source!
Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is
really it. There is nothing to choose.

There is no invisible witness hiding anywhere. Whenever we attempt to fall back to this
an invisible transparent image , it is again the mind game of thought. It is the bond
at work. I wonder this make sense to you.
I am completely overwhelmed with what you wrote here.
When I was reading this the first time, I read the phrase "the Appearance is the Source!" and
all hell broke loose within. There was instant recognition of what was written and a
simultaneous explosive expansion of energy. This was quite painful, but the pain was totally
irrelevant. It took me at least 15 minutes to recover from the initial event, there was a great
deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a tremendous "letting go".
I knew before reading this that there was no witness, I had heard Tony Parsons speak of this,
but your post somehow opened the floodgates and for that I truly thank you.
The witness is the appearance is the source.
All is One.
Nothing could be more simple.
Thank you again.
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are One.
quote:

Dear Thusness,
I am completely overwhelmed with what you wrote here.
When I was reading this the first time, I read the phrase "the Appearance is the
Source!" and all hell broke loose within. There was instant recognition of what was
written and a simultaneous explosive expansion of energy. This was quite painful, but
the pain was totally irrelevant. It took me at least 15 minutes to recover from the initial
event, there was a great deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a
tremendous "letting go".
I knew before reading this that there was no witness, I had heard Tony Parsons speak of
this, but your post somehow opened the floodgates and for that I truly thank you.
The witness is the appearance is the source.

All is One.
Nothing could be more simple.
Thank you again.
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are
One.
That is no-mirror relfecting. Everything is unfolding! You are on your own!
From blinking your eyes, raising a hand...jumps...flowers, sky, chirping birds,

footsteps...every single moment...nothing is not it! There is just IT. The instantaneous
moment is total intelligence, total life, total clarity. Everything Knows, it's it. There is no two,
there is one.
Good Luck!
Help me to pay homage to the Blessed One....

quote:
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are
One.
Stage 6.
I drink the coffee, u get the taste.

Don't even think about it! It is for Total Presence to know.
quote:
I drink the coffee, u get the taste
Could you add a little more sugar please!

quote:

[b].
Could you add a little more sugar please! [/b]
Nope...I drink with little sugar...

quote:
Nope...I drink with little sugar...
Why are you resisting the present moment?

quote:
Why are you resisting the present moment?
The 'bond' is greatly loosen after "no mirror reflecting". During the process of transition from
'Witness' to 'no Witness' some experience the manifestation as itself being intelligence, some
experience it as immense vitality, some experience it as tremendous clarity and some, all 3
qualities explode into one single moment. Even then the 'bond' is far from being completely
eliminated, we know how subtle it can be . The principle of conditionality might help if
you face problem in future (I know how a person feel after the experience of non-duality,
they don't like 'religion'... Just simply 4 sentences).

Not for scientists, more crucial for the experience of the totality of our Pristine Awareness.
The 'who' is gone, the 'where' and 'when' isn't.
Find delights in -- this is, that is.

Hi everyone,
I have some great news today.
I'm totally lost.
I love it when that happens.
When the scaffolding is pulled out from under me.
Nothing to hang on to.

quote:

Hi everyone,
I have some great news today.
I'm totally lost.
I love it when that happens.
When the scaffolding is pulled out from under me.
Nothing to hang on to.
Enjoy the HAPPENING...Mr. Transparent.

Daily messages from Byron Katie:
http://www.thework.com/DailyMsgArchive.asp
For me, reality is God, because it rules.
When I argue with reality, I losebut only 100% of the time.
When I am perfectly clear, what is is what I want.

Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to barkhopeless.
There are no physical problemsonly mental ones.
We never make a decision. When the time is right, the decision makes itself.
The miracle of love comes to us in the presence of the uninterpreted moment.
Im very clear that everyone in the world loves me. I just dont expect them to realize it
yet.
Seeking love keeps you from the awareness that you already have itthat you are it.
Nothing you believe is true. To know this is freedom.
You see only what you believe. Nothing else is possible.
Why are you upset? Youre believing what you think. Want to get sane? Question what
you believe.
Her experience is truly beautiful. Thanks...
quote:
Less than two weeks after I entered the halfway house, my life changed completely. What
follows is a very approximate account.
One morning I woke up. I had been sleeping on the floor as usual. Nothing special had
happened the night before; I just opened my eyes. But I was seeing without concepts, without
thoughts or an internal story. There was no me. It was as if something else had woken up. It
opened its eyes. It was looking through Katie's eyes. And it was crisp, it was clear, it was
new, it had never been here before. Everything was unrecognizable. And it was so delighted!
Laughter welled up from the depths and just poured out. It breathed and was ecstasy. It was
intoxicated with joy: totally greedy for everything. There was nothing separate, nothing
unacceptable to it. Everything was its very own self. For the first time I it experienced
the love of its own life. I it was amazed!
In trying to be as accurate as possible, I am using the word it for this delighted, loving
awareness, in which there was no me or world, and in which everything was included. There
just isn't another way to say how completely new and fresh the awareness was. There was no
I observing the it. There was nothing but the it. And even the realization of an it came
later.
Let me say this in a different way. A foot appeared; there was a c0ckroach crawling over it. It
opened its eyes, and there was something on the foot; or there was something on the foot, and
then it opened its eyes I don't know the sequence, because there was no time in any of this.
So, to put it in slow motion: it opened its eyes, looked down at the foot, a c0ckroach was
crawling across the ankle, and it was awake! It was born. And from then on, it's been
observing. But there wasn't a subject or an object. It was is everything it saw. There's
no separation in it, anywhere.
All my rage, all the thoughts that had been troubling me, my whole world, the whole world,
was gone. The only thing that existed was awareness. The foot and the c0ckroach weren't
outside me; there was no outside or inside. It was all me. And I felt delight absolute
delight! There was nothing, and there was a whole world: walls and floor and ceiling and
light and body, everything, in such fullness. But only what it could see: no more, no less.
Then it stood up, and that was amazing. There was no thinking, no plan. It just stood up and
walked to the bathroom. It walked straight to a mirror, and it locked onto the eyes of its own
reflection, and it understood. And that was even deeper than the delight it had known before.
It fell in love with that being in the mirror. It was as if the woman and the awareness of the
woman had permanently merged. There were only the eyes, and a sense of absolute vastness,
with no knowledge in it. It was as if I she had been shot through with electricity. It was
like God giving itself life through the body of the woman God so loving and bright, so
vast and yet she knew that it was herself. It made such a deep connection with her eyes.
There was no meaning to it, just a nameless recognition that consumed her.
Love is the best word I can find for it. It had been split apart, and now it was joined. There
was it moving, and then it in the mirror, and then it joined as quickly as it had separated it
was all eyes. The eyes in the mirror were the eyes of it. And it gave itself back again , as it
met again. And that gave it its identity, which I call love. As it looked in the mirror, the eyes
the depth of them were all that was real, all that existed prior to that, nothing. No
eyes, no anything; even standing there, there was nothing. And then the eyes come out to give
it what it is. People name things a wall, a ceiling, a foot, a hand. But it had no name for these
things, because it's indivisible. And it's invisible. Until the eyes. Until the eyes. I remember
tears of gratitude pouring down the cheeks as it looked at its own reflection. It stood there
staring for I don't know how long.
These were the first moments after I was born as it, or it as me. There was nothing left of
Katie. There was literally not even a shred of memory of her no past, no future, not even a
present. And in that openness, such joy. There's nothing sweeter than this, I felt; there is
nothing but this. If you loved yourself more than anything you could imagine, you would
give yourself this. A face. A hand. Breath. But that's not enough. A wall. A ceiling. A
window. A bed. Light bulbs. Ooh! And this too! And this too! And this too!
(I love the way she expressed it )
All this took place beyond time. But when I put it into language, I have to backtrack and fill
in. While I was lying on the floor, I understood that when I was asleep, prior to c0ckroach or
foot, prior to any thoughts, prior to any world, there is nothing. In that instant, the four
questions of The Work were born. I understood that no thought is true. The whole of inquiry
was already present in that understanding. It was like closing a gate and hearing it click shut.
It wasn't I who woke up: inquiry woke up. The two polarities, the left and right of things, the
something/nothing of it all, woke up. Both sides were equal. I understood this in that first
instant of no-time .
So to say it again: As I was lying there in the awareness, as the awareness, the thought arose:
It's a foot. And immediately I saw that it wasn't true, and that was the delight of it. I saw that
it was all backward. It's not a foot; it's not a c0ckroach. It wasn't true, and yet there was a
foot, there was a c0ckroach. It opened its eyes and saw a foot, and a c0ckroach crawling over
the foot. But there was no name for these things. There were no separate words for foot or
c0ckroach or wall or any of it. So it was looking at its entire body, looking at itself, with no
name. Nothing was separate from it, nothing was outside it, it was all pulsing with life and
delight, and it was all one unbroken experience. To separate that wholeness and see anything
as outside itself, wasn't true. The foot existed, yet it wasn't a separate thing, and to call it a
foot, or an anything, felt like a lie. It was absurd. And the laughter kept pouring out of me. I
saw that c0ckroach and foot are names for joy, that there are no names for what appears as
real now. This was the birth of awareness: thought reflecting back as itself, seeing itself as
everything, surrounded by the vast ocean of its own laughter.
When I try to explain how The Work was born in that instant of realization, I can analyze the
instant, slow it down, and tell it so that it takes on time. But this is giving time to an instant
that wasn't even an instant. In that no-time, everything was known and seen as nothing. It saw
a foot, and it knew that it wasn't a foot, and it loved that it was. The first and second of the
four questions is like the slow-motion mechanics of the experience. It's a foot is that
true? Can I absolutely know that it's true? No. What was it like before the thought of foot
appeared, before there was the world of foot? Nothing.
Then the third question: How do I react when I believe the thought? I was aware that there's
always a contraction, that when I believe any thought I create a world separate from myself,
an object that is apparently out there, and that the contraction is a form of suffering. And
the fourth: Who would I be without that thought? I would be prior to thought, I would be I
am peace, absolute joy. Then the turnaround: It's a foot / it's not a foot. Actually, all four
questions were present in the first Is it true? and everything was already released in the
instant that the first question was asked. The second, third, and fourth questions were
embedded in the inquiry that was there in the experience. There were no words for any of the
questions they were not explicit, not thought, not experienced in time, but present as
possibilities when I looked at my experience later and tried to make it available for people.
With the fourth question the circle is complete. And then the turnaround is the grounding, the
re-entry. There's nothing / there's something. And in that way people can be held without the
terror of being nothing, without identity. The turnaround holds them until it's a comfortable
place. And they realize that nowhere to go is really where they already are.
If you are looking for anything beyond "This", the present moment, then know that ego/mind
is still asserting itself, is still dominant.
All there is is This.
Rest in This.
This is the ground of being.

quote:
If you are looking for anything beyond "This", the present moment, then know that
ego/mind is still asserting itself, is still dominant.
All there is is This.
Rest in This.
This is the ground of being.
Yes there is nothing beyond 'This'. The 'what is' of the present moment. Attempting to go
beyond 'what is' results in the arising of thoughts.
Which is, still 'This'.

Hi JonLS,
Read some of Tony Parsons articles. Pretty thorough on the aspect of non-duality and with all
due respect to him, I think he still misses some points. But before that, what do you think is
the factor that prevents one from seeing what 'Eternal Witness' is? Why initially there is a
constant fall back to the Source?
This is from John Wheeler's website:
http://www.employees.org/~johnwhee/index.html
(Click on "Pointers" at the top of the webpage)
quote:
It all comes down to clarifying your identity. You are already present. So there is no
need to look for a future state, experience or attainment. What you are seeking to know
is not separate or distant, since it is your own self. What you are must be always with
you. Anything which appears and disappears cannot, by definition, be what you are.
Thoughts, feelings, perceptions, experiences, objects these all come and go. None of
them as such can be the essence of what you are. So set those aside and continue to look
into your true nature. What is left to consider? Surprisingly little!
However, you are still present. You are still aware. Look at this presence of awareness
itself. Having discarded all else, this is the only possible remainder and must be what
you are. Your existence is beyond any doubt, and what you are is brightly aware. You
are that knowing presence which is registering all thoughts, feelings and experiences.
Look directly into this. This is the heart and essence of all paths and teachings.
Notice that thoughts arise and set, but this presence your own natural being
remains constant. There is no need to wait for the future to see this, nor is there any
need for a special practice, technique or approach simply because it is already
present. You do not need to make any effort to be present and aware. It is completely
natural and effortless. Look now and notice that what you are and the sense of
presence-awareness are not two different things. You are that which is present and
aware. Many words are used to point to this essential nature: presence, awareness,
consciousness, life, spirit, emptiness, being, God, oneness and so on. These all simply
pointers. And what they are pointing to is your true nature nothing more or less.
The body and mind may suffer experiences, yet awareness, your natural being, remains
unaffected and uncompromised, just like the sun ever shining beyond the clouds and
utterly untouched by them. Your being has no suffering, doubts or problems at all. See
all this and you will find that your true nature is ever-present awareness, changeless
being and undisturbed freedom and peace itself. These are just additional pointers to
the same wordless, non-theoretical presence of your true nature.
John Wheeler is a student of Sailor Bob Adamson:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/intro.html
Hi Thusness,
I am not feeling as "clear" today as before, this happens often, there seems to be an ebb and
flow to awareness.
quote:
Read some of Tony Parsons articles. Pretty thorough on the aspect of non-duality and
with all due respect to him, I think he still misses some points. But before that, what do
you think is the factor that prevents one from seeing what 'Eternal Witness' is? Why
initially there is a constant fall back to the Source?
I don't know.
I'm afraid I don't even understand the question.
I look forward to your answer, to being enlightened!

(Please read my next post before answering.)
quote:

This is from John Wheeler's website:
http://www.employees.org/~johnwhee/index.html
(Click on "Pointers" at the top of the webpage)
quote:It all comes down to clarifying your identity. You are already present. So there is
no need to look for a future state, experience or attainment. What you are seeking to
know is not separate or distant, since it is your own self. What you are must be always
with you. Anything which appears and disappears cannot, by definition, be what you
are. Thoughts, feelings, perceptions, experiences, objects these all come and go. None
of them as such can be the essence of what you are. So set those aside and continue to
look into your true nature. What is left to consider? Surprisingly little!
Look directly into this. This is the heart and essence of all paths and teachings.
remains constant. There is no need to wait for the future to see this, nor is there any
need for a special practice, technique or approach simply because it is already
present. You do not need to make any effort to be present and aware. It is completely
natural and effortless. Look now and notice that what you are and the sense of
presence-awareness are not two different things. You are that which is present and
aware. Many words are used to point to this essential nature: presence, awareness,
consciousness, life, spirit, emptiness, being, God, oneness and so on. These all simply
pointers. And what they are pointing to is your true nature nothing more or less.
The body and mind may suffer experiences, yet awareness, your natural being, remains
unaffected and uncompromised, just like the sun ever shining beyond the clouds and
utterly untouched by them. Your being has no suffering, doubts or problems at all. See
all this and you will find that your true nature is ever-present awareness, changeless
being and undisturbed freedom and peace itself. These are just additional pointers to
the same wordless, non-theoretical presence of your true nature.
John Wheeler is a student of Sailor Bob Adamson:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/intro.html
This is not exactly true... He sees presences as separate from thoughts...
What he percieved is thru 'the eternal witness' or pure observer... which is a very subtle
witnessing... or 'cross referencing'.
This pure observer is also within the flow... it is not unchanging...In fact, it is changing all the
time... in the stream too...so to speak
Hi Thusness,
I just reread this:
quote:
For the purpose of discussion, I would like to introduce you one concept, it is the "seed
of pre-conscious propensities";;;. It is a layer of bond that prevents us from seeing
constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center . Every moment we
want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is
habitual and almost hypnotic.
But what exactly is this witness we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It
is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source!
Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is
really it. There is nothing to choose.

There is no invisible witness hiding anywhere. Whenever we attempt to fall back to this
an invisible transparent image , it is again the mind game of thought. It is the bond
at work. I wonder this make sense to you.
Now I understand your question!

Hi Longchen,
quote:
This is not exactly true... He sees presences as separate from thoughts...

What he percieved is thru 'the eternal witness' or pure observer... which is a very subtle
witnessing... or 'cross referencing'.
This pure observer is also within the flow... it is not unchanging...In fact, it is changing
all the time... in the stream too...so to speak
Yes, I think I know what you mean here.
You're saying there is a mirror reflecting.
Is that right?
Hi again Longchen,
I took this from the John Wheeler's talk I posted:
quote:
remains constant.
So he is saying here that you are the awareness but that thoughts, feelings and external
objects are separate.
Is this what you are pointing to?
And the truth of the matter of course is that there is no seperation, absolutely everything
within the present moment, everything that is, is It! It is all One. No separation. Separation is
appearance only!
And Thusness will explain why this appearance of separation of awareness from everything
else occurs.
That was his question to me.
Why we fall back into trying to be just the awareness, when in fact we are everything.
Cenarious: 24 September 2006 05:32 PM
jon you read longchen wrong he is trying to say awareness and mind are not separate
quote:
remains constant.
Hi Jon,
I think Cenarious is right.
Presence is in everything. It is not a constant(witness /source) witnessing mind/manifestation.
In deep meditation, what i perceived was that... there is no witness apart from the being
witnessed. But you may ask...how can it be?
Moment to moment arises in incredibly fast sequences. There is, however, a continuity in
them. This continuity is caused by 'cause and effect'. The subsequent thought is the 'effect' of
the preceded ones. The subsequence moment is the 'witness' of the preceded one.
Therefore, the 'witness' is within/is the manifestation/mind. Compounded with the

knowingness that is in-built in presence/awareness, the impression of a constant witness
comes about.
Just my understanding. Thusness may have a better understanding

Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here also.
quote:
I keep having this recurring dream, over and over again.
I have been a substitute teacher for the last 15 years before retiring this year.
As such I have been in many difficult classes where some semblance of control was
paramount.
In this recurring dream, I have a difficult class, I ask them repeatedly to stop talking
and to do their work.
This doesn't work at all.
So I go to each student individually, get right in front of them, right in their face, and
ask them very forcefully to stop talking and do their work.
This works momentarily, the student stops talking and starts to work, barely
acknowledging my presence.
As soon as I leave this student to go and talk to some other student, the first student
ceases to concentrate on working and goes back to talking with his friends.
This goes on and on in the dream, I get very tired, very hoarse, very discouraged.
But I am completely identified with the task at hand, there is no space, no acceptance,
there is complete unconsciousness.
When I woke up this morning the dream was still very vivid and very painfully in my
mind.
I wondered what to do about the situation.
It dawned on me that I should just accept the situation, accept it deeply, and so I did.
I accepted the fact I had this unconscious dream that recurred time and time again.
And then it dawned on me that this dream is pointing out that there is still
unconsciousness within me, and this unconsciousness is at an unconscious level and is
showing up as this dream.
And so I accepted fully the fact that there is deep unconsciousness within.
And then this situation reminded me of Claudia's posts, about how she complains about
being completely identified with mind.
And then I had a moment of insight.
The insight is that I am not only totally identified with the story of my own awakening
but I am also totally identified with wanting other people to awaken also.
I am forever posting wanting to help, wanting to guide, wanting to inspire.
What if this is all a dream?
What if there is nothing that needs to be done at all?
This was painful to look at. ( a dead giveaway that I am on to something!)
This caused total confusion, complete "not knowing" and disorientation. (another good
sign)
And so I have to accept the fact that this is all a dream, there really is no one to help,
everything is fine the way it is.
And still this leaves "me" completely lost, completely disoriented.
And that is completely ok.

quote:

Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here
also.
ahahahah... longchen must be expert in this

quote:

Hi everyone,
also.
Longchen's topic.
quote:

Hi everyone,
also.
Yes the deeper layer of consciousness...
However what that is deeply hidden in Consciousness is manifestated not only in dreams but
also in everyday waking state. A 'seed' (metaphorical) that goes undetected and manifests
almost without gap with our clarity nature like a shadow is the seed that bonds us to the belief
of a 'self'. Even realisation came that 'everything is the one reality' (intuitively seen and
directly experienced), the bond continues to operate subtlely though it is greatly loosen.
Presence is ever natural and spontaneous with or without realisation otherwise existence
would cease to be. No effort is needed to improve its clarity, vitality and intelligence! But
'right effort' is needed to break this 'bond'.
Even surrendering and letting go are effort because there is a detection of the bond coming
into manifestation otherwise ithere will be no blockage, there is nothing to surrender and let
go!
When one realises that there is really no one there, who is doing? The bond is doing...() put
this to challenge right at this moment! Experience the full power of the bond! Seeing that
there is no one there without seeing this bond at work will lead to confusion. Right effort
needs to be done to eliminate this bond.
quote:

Hi again Longchen,
I took this from the John Wheeler's talk I posted:
So he is saying here that you are the awareness but that thoughts, feelings and external
objects are separate.
Is this what you are pointing to?
And the truth of the matter of course is that there is no seperation, absolutely
everything within the present moment, everything that is, is It! It is all One. No
separation. Separation is appearance only!
And Thusness will explain why this appearance of separation of awareness from
everything else occurs.
That was his question to me.
Why we fall back into trying to be just the awareness, when in fact we are everything.
Longchen explains how the "Witness" becomes the great constant in the in a stream of ever
becoming. Only the being witnessed is sufficent. There is change, there is no changing 'thing'.

Hi Thusness,
quote:
Presence is ever natural and spontaneous with or without realisation otherwise

existence would cease to be. No effort is needed to improve its clarity, vitality and
intelligence!
Yes, I see this very clearly that no effort is needed to improve the clarity and "isness" right
now!!!
quote:
But 'right effort' is needed to break this 'bond'.
Can you explain what you mean by right effort?
I seem to feel that any effort would validate the bond, making it stronger, making a belief that
something is wrong, and something needs to be done about it.
I have the impression that being identified with the body and mind has a certain momentum
and this identification is dissolving slowly on it's own.
quote:
When one realises that there is really no one there, who is doing? The bond is doing...()
put this to challenge right at this moment!
Yes, this is what I was saying above, there is momentum to identification, you call it a bond,
it is dissolving....
If I challenge it right now I see a subtle identification with posting with you about a non
existent problem that appears to be in the present moment!!!
quote:
Longchen explains how the "Witness" becomes the great constant in the in a stream of
ever becoming. Only the being witnessed is sufficent. There is change, there is no
changing 'thing'.
Yes, this is the ever-flowing stream, the constant becoming which we define as the present
moment. Is that what you are saying?
Hi JonLS,
Presence will find its way and it is not necessary to go through a period of intense suffering
and depression like Katie and Eckhart Tolle in order to break the bond and get in touch with
Reality. Right effort is the effort leading one to the experience of the Presence before the
birth of names and labels. The way towards imagelessness Reality. (e.g. Mindfulness). When
the mind realises the quality of beauty and joy is far greater than the symbolic realm it
stubbornly holds on to, it begin to lose it grips and the 'bond' loosen.
quote:
The Power of Now; Eckhart Tolle, Excerpt
Use your senses fully. Be where you are. Look around. Just look, don't interpret. See the
lights, shapes, colours, textures. Be aware of the silent presence of each thing. Be aware
of the space that allows everything to be. Listen to the sounds; don't judge them. Listen
to the silence underneath the sounds. Touch something - anything - and feel and
acknowledge its Being. Observe the rhythm of your breathing; feel the air flowing in
and out, feel the life energy inside your body. Allow everything to be, within and
without. Allow the "isness" of all things. Move deeply into the Now.
When we are unable to go beyond symbols and feel with totality, there is no joy.
Another one from Byron Katie:
quote:
So to say it again: As I was lying there in the awareness, as the awareness, the thought
arose: It's a foot. And immediately I saw that it wasn't true, and that was the delight of
it. I saw that it was all backward. It's not a foot; it's not a c0ckroach. It wasn't true, and
yet there was a foot, there was a c0ckroach. It opened its eyes and saw a foot, and a
c0ckroach crawling over the foot. But there was no name for these things. There were
no separate words for foot or c0ckroach or wall or any of it. So it was looking at its
entire body, looking at itself, with no name. Nothing was separate from it, nothing was
outside it, it was all pulsing with life and delight, and it was all one unbroken
experience. To separate that wholeness and see anything as outside itself, wasn't true.
The foot existed, yet it wasn't a separate thing, and to call it a foot, or an anything,
felt like a lie. It was absurd. And the laughter kept pouring out of me. I saw that
c0ckroach and foot are names for joy, that there are no names for what appears as real
now. This was the birth of awareness: thought reflecting back as itself, seeing itself as
everything, surrounded by the vast ocean of its own laughter.
quote:
Yes, this is what I was saying above, there is momentum to identification, you call it a
bond, it is dissolving....
If I challenge it right now I see a subtle identification with posting with you about a non
existent problem that appears to be in the present moment!!!
Yes. Do absolutely nothing. When the floodgate is open, the pathless path is seen. So do
nothing! The 'bond' continues to manifest, no effort to do anything is needed... but this is not
for everyone.
When one has not experienced it, they would ask 'how', but there is no 'how' so doing
something like mindfulness leading one to experience the raw and undefined 'what is' is
preferred. Or even self-enquiry leading one to the experience of the pure sense of existence
though I think mindfulness is safer...
quote:
Yes, this is the ever-flowing stream, the constant becoming which we define as the
present moment. Is that what you are saying?
Yes.
A friend came to pass me some cheques to sign and saw me reading this forum...
IT triggered a short conversation and I asked:
"Without the using the thought of I, how do you experience I?"
He closed his eyes for a while...
Open his eyes and said "Everything!"
and his eyes like

Try it!
Hi Thusness,
quote:
Right effort is the effort leading one to the experience of the Presence before the birth of
names and labels. The way towards imagelessness Reality. (e.g. Mindfulness). When the
mind realises the quality of beauty and joy is far greater than the symbolic realm that it
stubbornly holds, it begin to lose it grips and the 'bond' loosen.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Power of Now; Eckhart Tolle, Excerpt
Use your senses fully. Be where you are. Look around. Just look, don't interpret. See the
lights, shapes, colours, textures. Be aware of the silent presence of each thing. Be aware
of the space that allows everything to be. Listen to the sounds; don't judge them. Listen
to the silence underneath the sounds. Touch something - anything - and feel and
acknowledge its Being. Observe the rhythm of your breathing; feel the air flowing in
and out, feel the life energy inside your body. Allow everything to be, within and
without. Allow the "isness" of all things. Move deeply into the Now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your amazingly clear answer.
And the fact you used an Eckhart Tolle quote to answer shows your flexibility, versatility and
resourcefulness.
You're a great teacher!

A few weeks ago I had a split second insight, it's really amazing how an insight only lasts that
long and is gone after that. But it's not really gone, somehow it remains and not quite in
memory either because the mind/memory could never understand or "hold onto" this insight.
I had an insight into what I will call "pure presence" or another name for it could be "no
mind".
It would be impossible for me to truly describe this state.
But I can give a few adjectives for it.
It is completely free, very immediate and absolutely pristine.
There is complete "not knowing" because the mind is completely quiet, one could say it's a
state of "no mind".
I recognize that this state of "no mind" is here right now, but of course there is mind also
which is "superimposed"; on top of it somehow.
quote:

A few weeks ago I had a split second insight, it's really amazing how an insight only
lasts that long and is gone after that. But it's not really gone, somehow it remains and
not quite in memory either because the mind/memory could never understand or "hold
onto" this insight.
I had an insight into what I will call "pure presence" or another name for it could be
"no mind".
There is complete "not knowing" because the mind is completely quiet, one could say
it's a state of "no mind".
I recognize that this state of "no mind" is here right now, but of course there is mind
also which is "superimposed"; on top of it somehow.
In complete stillness...the silence...That very Silence is the absolute pristine.

In manifestation, see...the scenery...The incredible realness and vividness of the scenery is
also the absolute pristine.
Neither stillness nor manifestation is purer or clearer than the other. It is the chattering of the
mind that creates the differentiation. When no mirror reflecting is stabilized, all things are
absolutely pristine. They are the Absolute Pristine itself under differing conditions.
Saw Din working hard in telling ET forum that their mirrors are reflecting. Told you that the
bond is very subtle...
Don't give up!
Hi Thusness,
quote:
In complete stillness...the silence...That very Silence is the absolute pristine.

In manifestation, see...the scenery...The incredible realness and vividness of the
scenery is also the absolute pristine.
Neither stillness nor manifestation is purer or clearer than the other. It is the chattering
of the mind that creates the differentiation. When no mirror reflecting is stabilized, all
things are absolutely pristine. They are the Absolute Pristine itself under differing
conditions.
This sounds very good!
quote:
Saw Din working hard in telling ET forum that their mirrors are reflecting. Told you
that the bond is very subtle...
Don't give up!
Sometimes, I wonder if it is a good thing to engage in this "chatter" on the boards, perhaps
that stimulates the mind.
I had another insight tonight.
It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the beginning
of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was in essence
the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.
What I "saw" was that all there is is this present moment.
But this manifestation that we call the present moment, is simply that, a manifestation.
There really is no "story" attached to the manifestation.
The manifestation is appearance only.
"The story" is what adds "meaning" to the manifestation, to the appearance.
"The story" is essentially conditioning, and it is amazing just how deep and pervasive
conditioning is.
Let me give you an example.
Eckhart talks about looking at a tree without naming it, without putting a label on it.
That is what he is pointing to.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the manifestation.
We can't see this because the mind has put a label on everything, interprets everything.
We are living in sacredness, we just don't realize it.
We are sacredness, we just don't realize it.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy "interpreting"; to
realize this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the computer and the
keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post are God's fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center, to the seat
of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just appearance also.
The whole of the manifestation is "It" , is "God" , is the manifestation.
There is not one part of "It" that is more "It" than any other part.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part of the
manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any other way.
Except perhaps it appears to be the entry point of the unmanifested into the manifested.
quote:

It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the
beginning of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was in
essence the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.

conditioning is.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the
manifestation.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy "interpreting";
to realize this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the computer
and the keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post are God's
fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the
whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center, to
the seat of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just appearance also.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part of
the manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any other way.
Yes JonLS,
The way it is unfolding in you is truly amazing!!! You have put it so well!
Practical Tolle (Source: http://eckhart-tolle-

Forum Topic:
forum.inner-
growth.info/viewtopic.php?t=1024&postdays=0&postorder=as
c&start=05) ~ Eckhart Tolle Discussion Community
Note: Din = JonLS, Passerby = Thusness
Passerby: Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject:
din wrote:
I sit at my computer and I NEED to post and I EXPECT an answer!!!
Hi Din,
Just pop in to say hi!

Don't expect answer. Isness is entire. Rest!
Bye.
Din: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:57 am Post subject:
Quote:
din wrote:
I sit at my computer and I NEED to post and I EXPECT an answer!!!
Hi Din,
Just pop in to say hi!

Don't expect answer. Isness is entire. Rest!
Bye.
Hi Thusness, (or is it Longchen?)
I am resting, but I am also having fun.
Very happy you popped in!!!
I really enjoyed reading the stages of enlightenment that An Eternal Now provided.
Here is the link:
Happy reading!!!
Chelsy: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:07 am Post subject:
Hi Passerby,
"Isness is entire."
There is something appealing about this.
Can you share more?
Thanks!
Passerby: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:
din wrote:
Hi Thusness, (or is it Longchen?)
I am resting, but I am also having fun.
Very happy you popped in!!!
I really enjoyed reading the stages of enlightenment that An Eternal Now provided.
Here is the link:
Happy reading!!!
I am Thusness.
Yes it is a joy to see everyone sharing their experiences about Presence.
I like the site too. Just to add in some sugar...
When the I drops away, there must be this fusing into everything. Without this
experience, it is still resting in I , there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of
fusing into all things, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. True realisation
comes when we realised that there never was an 'I' from start, separation is an illusion. All is
and are the One reality.
I can see that u r enjoying.

Passerby: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:18 am Post subject:
Chelsy wrote:
Hi Passerby,
"Isness is entire."
There is something appealing about this.
Can you share more?
Thanks!
The entirety comes from it being everything. Only a mind that is forever symbolizing seeks
and has that sense of deficy. Who, what, where, when and why belongs to the thinking mind
that seeks. Isness is the Presence in I, the presence in things, the presence in time, the
presence in space, the presence in meaning. It is complete. Enjoy the manifold of Presence!
Chelsy: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:17 am Post subject:
Hello Thusness!
Wonderful name, (and great greeny face!)
Quote:
Thusness-
True realisation comes when we realised that there never was an 'I' from start,
separation is an illusion. All is and are the One reality.
Beautiful!
Quote:
Thusness-
Isness is the Presence in I, the presence in things, the presence in time, the
presence in space, the presence in meaning. It is complete. Enjoy the manifold of
Presence!
The Power of Now teaching has different terminology, perhaps.
This is from Eckhart on Presence.
Question- Is presence the same thing as Being?
When you become conscious of Being, what is really happening is that Being becomes
conscious of itself- thats presence.
Since Being, Consciousness and life are synonymous, we could say that Presence means
consciousness becoming conscious of itself, or life attaining self-consciousness. But dont get
attached to the words and dont make an effort to understand this. There is nothing you need
to understand before you can become present.
How do you see this?
Eckhart speaks of awareness aware of itself. consciousness conscious of itself. He has

said that this is the message of liberation, freedom, freedom from suffering, salvation,
enlightenment.
Though you may use different words, does this ring true to you?
Din: Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject:
Quote:
The coffee still tastes a bit too sweet for me!
Quote:
When the I drops away, there must be this fusing into everything.
Without this experience, it is still resting in I , there is no breakthrough.
Even with the experience of fusing into all things, it remains as a stage
having an entry and exit point.
When the "I" drops away the experience I have is that what I am is not separate from
anything else.
I see myself in other people, in the birds ( I love birds!), in the trees ( I love to walk in the
woods!).
I also enjoy walking in the mall. I love looking into other peoples' eyes and seeing awareness
there, looking back at me!!! That is really thrilling at times, I especially love to look in
childrens' eyes, they are so clear, so pristine, so pure, not clouded with a sense of self
consciousness, with fear, with the heavy story of ego.
It is not "their" awareness looking back at me, it is just awareness, what I am.
I am aware of myself as this body, as this illusory individual and I am also aware of myself as
pure awareness that is absolutely everywhere, in everything.
But more than that there is also the sense that all separation is just appearance, not real at all.
And so I have a tendency to drop the awareness aware of itself aspect and rest in the present
moment just as it is, with no interpretation at all because I know absolutely nothing at all.
There is only This.
Quote:
True realisation comes when we realised that there never was an 'I' from
start, separation is an illusion. All is and are the One reality.
Yes!!!!
Chelsy: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:03 am Post subject:
Quote:
Din wrote-
And so I have a tendency to drop the awareness aware of itself aspect...
Awareness aware of itself is what all of this is about- for humans.

It is knowing who we are beyond form. It is God realizing itself.
It's the treasure wanting to be known- and being known.
Your post was wonderful and awareness is strong- it reveals fertile ground for awareness to
become aware itself.
To rest in the present moment just as it is, is fine.
To realize you are the present moment, you are the Now, you are the One Consciousness, to
realize there is no you, this is a deeper truth.
Resting in the present moment can become a trap- with the ego saying, "This is all I need to
do- just rest, rest in the present moment with no interpretation at all, because I know
absolutely nothing at all. There is only this."
Most of humanity is sleeping, they don't need anymore rest, they need to wake up.
Being relaxed but very alert- pure attention, no thought, is it.
If you were to suddenly hear a strange noise, you would stop- stop what you're doing, stop
thinking, and listen for the sound. You would be very alert. This is it. This is awareness. If
instead of continuing to pursue the sound, you looked instead at this alert attention- became
aware of awareness- this is awareness being aware of itself. And when that happens,
something very major league wonderful happens.
A Zen Story-
True Self
A distraught man approached the Zen master.
"Please, master, I feel lost, desperate. I don't know who I am. Please, show me the way." But
the teacher just looked away without responding. The man began to plead and beg, but still
the master gave no reply. Finally giving up in frustration, the man turned to leave. At that
moment the master called out to him by name.
"Yes!" the man said as he spun back around.
"There it is!" exclaimed the master.
The man was in full attention when he turned around and said Yes.
Not thinking- just alert- waiting for the Masters answer. And the answer was this state of
alert attention- this awareness.
There is another Zen story of Zen Master and an apprentice walking in nature. How do I find
Zen? The apprentice asked. The Master said, Do you hear the sound of that stream? The
apprentice became very alert, and listened, and soon he said, Yes, I do hear it! The Zen
Master said, Take it from there. They walked a ways further and the apprentice said,
Master, what if I did not hear the stream? And the Master said, Take it from there.
The stream was irrelevant- it was the attention, the alertness, the no thought, the listening,
that was important- and from this take it from there to discover Zen- no thought, pure
awareness. Awareness aware of itself.
Quote:
Thusness wrote-
True realisation comes when we realised that there never was an 'I' from start,
separation is an illusion. All is and are the One reality.
This is known as Self Realization, God Realization, Awareness aware of itself,

Consciousness conscious of itself, awakening, enlightenment.
Din: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:33 am Post subject:
Hi Chelsy,
Quote:
Resting in the present moment can become a trap- with the ego saying, "This
is all I need to do- just rest, rest in the present moment with no interpretation
at all, because I know absolutely nothing at all. There is only this."
There is no trap. There can't be since there are no limits, no thoughts, no contractions in the
present moment.
There is no sense of a problem here.

Just the isness of the present moment.
There is no sense of a need to do anything further.
Except to allow the present moment to unfold beautifully on it's own.
Resting in awareness, resting in the present moment.
But that does not mean there is complacency, there is alertness, there is only truth.
Quote:
But that does not mean there is complacency, there is alertness
Quote:
there is only truth.
Go further....
go beyond truth.
Passerby: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:34 am Post subject:
Hi Chelsy,
Yes, Presence is the beingness.

When one first experienced the pure sense of existence, we touched that which is before
thought, the original, the unconditioned. This quality before conditioning is freedom.
However very quickly thoughts step in and we identify with that experience. It becomes 'I
Am'. Identification is a form of grasping; without identification the mind cannot know; it is
due to the poverty of the mind that it must know, must hold and must attain; but by so doing
the essense is lost. Enlightenment has no attainment; it has no knowing, it is the utter
willingness of the mind to let go of itself and die to be awakened.
My 2 cents.
Passerby: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:19 am Post subject:
[quote="din"]
Quote:
The coffee still tastes a bit too sweet for me!
... not clouded with a sense of self consciousness...
There is only This.

.
Yes din!
Isness cannot be contianed. Neither this not that...The 'sweetness' in the coffee, fragrance of
smell, blueness in the color, the beingness of all thing, the beingness is the thing!..more real
than the real... The experience of no mirror reflecting. Good luck.
Hi Chelsy,
Quote:
Go further....
go beyond truth.
As far as I know, Truth is Oneness.
Can I go beyond Oneness?
I'm wide open and listening...

Hi Thusness,
Quote:
The experience of no mirror reflecting.
Before the experience of no mirror reflecting there is the experience of "I am" consciousness
and being aware of Itself.
This is the "mirror reflecting".
Am I right?
And "no mirror reflecting" is when all efforting is dropped with regard to understanding
(interpreting) the present moment and the I am drops away also. And all there is "This".
All is One.
Keith, Chelsy, Matthew, can we get your two cents on this?

I just need to repeat what Thusness said:
Isness cannot be contained. Neither this not that...The 'sweetness' in the coffee,
fragrance of smell, blueness in the color, the beingness of all thing, the beingness is the
thing!..more real than the real... The experience of no mirror reflecting. Good luck
Quote:
Din-
Quote:
Thusness-
Identification is a form of grasping; without identification the mind cannot know;

it is due to the poverty of the mind that it must know, must hold and must attain;
but by so doing the essense is lost. Enlightenment has no attainment; it has no
knowing, it is the utter willingness of the mind to let go of itself and die to be
awakened.
Quote:
You are great!!!
I can always count on you to keep me on the straight and narrow.
However there still is no problem.
I have a sense of Oneness, I don't know Oneness.
This is not something I can know with the mind.
Thanks sweetie.
Quote:
Thusness-
Presence is the beingness
Quote:
Eckhart-
When you become conscious of Being, what is really happening is that Being
becomes conscious of itself- thats presence.
There is a crucial difference here.
Quote:
Thusness-
When one first experienced the pure sense of existence, we touched that which is
before thought, the original, the unconditioned. This quality before conditioning is
freedom.
Yes. This is also known in many spiritual teachings as "I Am".
Quote:
Thusness-
Identification is a form of grasping; without identification the mind cannot know;

it is due to the poverty of the mind that it must know, must hold and must attain;
but by so doing the essense is lost. Enlightenment has no attainment; it has no
knowing, it is the utter willingness of the mind to let go of itself and die to be
awakened.
The mind will never be willing to let go of itself.
But Yes- die to be awakened. Die before you die. Death of the small self.
No Self- awake.
This is Realization- of who we are beyond form.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I can always count on you to keep me on the straight and narrow.
It was what I was born to do.
Quote:
However there still is no problem.
True.
Quote:
I have a sense of Oneness, I don't know Oneness.
This is not something I can know with the mind.
True.
Quote:
Chelsy-
Go beyond Truth
Eckhart has said that the greatest truth of all is the space that allows all truth to be.
Going beyond truth is realizing that this space is who you are.
Quote:
Quote:
This is realization of who you are beyond form. You are formless, no content, space,
emptiness, nothingness- but alive, intense, gentle, peaceful- this. Pure consciousness,
awareness.
Here there is no mirror- as there is nothing here.
It reflects itself.
The world of the senses- is the surface. This world cannot see it isn't.
Beyond the mind- is seeing.
Quote:
Before the experience of no mirror reflecting there is the experience of "I am"
consciousness and being aware of Itself.
You cannot figure this out. You cannot use logic, mind.
Be still and go beneath the mind to see this.
Quote:
And "no mirror reflecting" is when all efforting is dropped with regard to
understanding (interpreting) the present moment and the I am drops away also.
And all there is "This".
No mirror reflecting is when there is no self to block space.
Quote:
All is One.
Quote:
Thusness-
the beingness is the thing!
Becoming conscious of Being is the thing. Thats presence.

Passerby: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject:
din wrote:
Before the experience of no mirror reflecting there is the experience of "I am"
consciousness and being aware of Itself.
Hi Din,
Just for Sharing

In between I AMness and no Mirror Reflecting, there is another distinct phase I would
name it as Mirror Bright Clarity. The Eternal Witness is experienced as a formless crystal
clear mirror reflecting all phenomenon existence. There is a clear knowledge that self does
not exist but the last trace of the karmic propensity of self is still not completely eliminated.
It resides in a very subtle level. In no mirror reflecting, the karmic propensity of self is
loosen to a great extend and the true nature of the Witness is seen. All along there is no
Witness witnessing anything, the manifestation alone is.

The one hand claps
Everything IS!
There is only One. The second hand does not exist
din wrote:
understanding (interpreting) the present moment and the I am drops away also.
And all there is "This".
And what is "This"?

One whole spontaneous divine happening.
Passerby: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject:
Chelsy wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is realization of who you are beyond form. You are formless, no content,
space, emptiness, nothingness- but alive, intense, gentle, peaceful- this. Pure
consciousness, awareness.
Here there is no mirror- as there is nothing here.
It reflects itself.
The world of the senses- is the surface. This world cannot see it isn't.
Beyond the mind- is seeing.
Quote:
Before the experience of no mirror reflecting there is the experience of "I
am" consciousness and being aware of Itself.
You cannot figure this out. You cannot use logic, mind.
Be still and go beneath the mind to see this.
Quote:
understanding (interpreting) the present moment and the I am drops away
also. And all there is "This".
No mirror reflecting is when there is no self to block space.
Quote:
All is One.
Hi Chelsy,
I agree with most of the thing you said but just don't let the last trace of the karmic self
propensity catch us...There is no need to sink back to a Source. The Appearance is really the
Source. The Unmanifested is the Manifestation.
It is truly a wonderful exchange. I enjoy most!!!

But got to get back to work...slackz...
ps: Thanks Din for introducing me this great site.

Chelsy: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:34 am Post subject:
Quote:
Hi Chelsy,
I agree with most of the thing you said but just don't let the last trace of the karmic
self propensity catch us...There is no need to sink back to a Source.
Hi Thusness,
what is the karmic self propensity?
I am not advocating sinking back to a Source.
I am saying we are to Realize that the Source is who we are.
And the Source- or Consciousness- wants to realize who it is through the human form.
Quote:
The Appearance is really the Source. The Unmanifested is the Manifestation.
I Agree.
But the appearance for humans is here for the Source to realize itself. The manifestation is
here for the unmanifested to realize itself.
Limitation is here for the unlimited to realize itself. There is form- or the appearance of form-
to know who we are beyond form.
Quote:
"The only absolutely important thing is knowing who you are beyond form."
Eckhart
Passerby: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject:
Hi Chesy,
Quote:
what is the karmic self propensity?
As much as I would not like too, I would like to introduce a concept the idea of karmic self
propensity (hope I will not be stoned to death by introducing a concept! ). It operates at a
very very deep level of our consciousness. What it does? It makes us identify; it is the
tendency to identify. Even when the Eye is opened, it still operates in a very subtle way. But
it can be loosen when the mind is constantly put to still and see that quality of beauty and
joy that is far greater than the symbolic realm. Any loosening of this propensity is
characterized by an expansion of vitality, intelligence and clarity; a sense of release and
lightness because weight, is really that identification. Due to the power of momentum, it
will arise. So let it arises and subsides by its own nature. Any form of effort will reinforce it;
it settles on its own without being reinforced through a mere effortless seeing; otherwise
just allow it to flow in its own course because it is really that flow itself at that moment.
Quote:
"The only absolutely important thing is knowing who you are beyond form."
Yes. All is the One Reality unfolding. It wants us to see all of IT but not through knowing.
For to know is to limit and contain; to know is to measure, compare and divide. Only through
being it is seen. Because in beingness, there is no otherness. Beingness merely IS and in that
ISness, there is immerse intelligence, life and clarity. It is entire.
Din: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:02 pm
Quote:
Yes. All is the One Reality unfolding. It wants us to see all of IT but not through
knowing. For to know is to limit and contain; to know is to measure, compare
and divide. Only through being it is seen. Because in beingness, there is no
otherness. Beingness merely IS and in that ISness, there is immerse intelligence,
life and clarity. It is entire.
Yes!!!
I really feel what you are saying!!!!
Insight (Source: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-

Forum Topic:
growth.info/viewtopic.php?t=1045) ~ Eckhart Tolle

Discussion Community
Din: Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Insight
A few weeks ago I had a split second insight, it's really amazing how an insight only lasts that
long and is gone after that. But it's not really gone, somehow it remains and not quite in
memory either because the mind/memory could never understand or "hold onto" this insight.
I had an insight into what I will call "pure presence" or another name for it could be "no
mind".

There is complete "not knowing" because the mind is completely quiet, one could say it's a
state of "no mind".
I recognize that this state of "no mind" is here right now, but of course there is mind also
which is "superimposed" on top of it somehow.
Din: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:40 am Post subject:
It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the beginning
of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was in essence
the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.
conditioning is.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the manifestation.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy "interpreting" to realize
this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the computer and the
keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post are God's fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center, to the seat
of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just appearance also.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part of the
manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any other way.
MatthewCromer: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject:
Quote:
But this manifestation that we call the present moment, is simply that, a
manifestation.
"The story" is essentially conditioning, and it is amazing just how deep and
pervasive conditioning is.
I saw the same insight the past couple of days.
In reality, the world is flat. The Now is flat.
There is the appearance of depth, but that is all provided by our conditioning, our
interpretation.
Reality is the exactness of the present moment. All the would be-s, could be-s, should be-s,
are absolutely non-existing in this space.
What does exist is exactly the moment, without interpretation. Therefore we can never "miss
out" on anything, we can never "get lost" in all the seeming depth of the impenetrably
complex models of thought that appear to be the manifest world.
Din: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject:
Good stuff Matthew.
Rather different insight than mine.

But both the same in their essence.
Passerby: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:31 am Post subject:
din wrote:
It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the
beginning of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was
in essence the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.
But this manifestation that we call the present moment, is simply that, a
manifestation.
"The story" is essentially conditioning, and it is amazing just how deep and
pervasive conditioning is.
Eckhart talks about looking at a tree without naming it, without putting a label on
it.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the
manifestation.
We can't see this because the mind has put a label on everything, interprets
everything.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy

"interpreting" to realize this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the
computer and the keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post
are God's fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the
whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center,
to the seat of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just
appearance also.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part
of the manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any
other way.
Except perhaps it appears to be the entry point of the unmanifested into the
manifested.
Hi Din,
This is really very well put!!! The silence is no more purer or sacred than the manifestation.
The manifestation has always been the source!
Passerby: Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:
MatthewCromer wrote:
I saw the same insight the past couple of days.
In reality, the world is flat. The Now is flat.
There is the appearance of depth, but that is all provided by our conditioning, our
interpretation.
Reality is the exactness of the present moment. All the would be-s, could be-s,
should be-s, are absolutely non-existing in this space.
What does exist is exactly the moment, without interpretation. Therefore we can
never "miss out" on anything, we can never "get lost" in all the seeming depth of
the impenetrably complex models of thought that appear to be the manifest world.
Thanks for sharing this insight. It is great!

Hi Thusness,
The insight is having a lasting effect, at least up to this point.
It's like the dream's grip has been loosened, it's grip is not as strong, as powerful. There is an
inner knowing that it is just appearance.
Cool stuff!!!
Here is another way of saying the dream has loosened it's grip:
Quote:
As much as I would not like too, I would like to introduce a concept the idea
of karmic self propensity (hope I will not be stoned to death by introducing a
concept! ). It operates at a very very deep level of our consciousness. What it
does? It makes us identify; it is the tendency to identify. Even when the Eye
is opened, it still operates in a very subtle way. But it can be loosen when the
mind is constantly put to still and see that quality of beauty and joy that is
far greater than the symbolic realm.
Identification with the dream is loosened when the true nature of the present moment is seen.
Forum Topic: argh how do i let go of concepts

There is something to do... That is the gradual relinquishing of all endeavours.
For example, you cannot wish to be very rich and yet be liberated. The wish to be rich is an
attachment. So liberation and many of the activities of normal society must be mutually-non
exclusive. We cannot have all and yet want to liberate.
We cannot be engaged in certain activities and still thinks that we are liberated. The activities
that is being engaged is always due to certain desires...and/or fear. Fear is also a form of
desire...negative desire.
Perhaps, we live life to discover the karmic patterns that binds us to certain activities and
relationship. And we must take the additional step to clear these patterns... resulting in
transformation. In the process of transformation, the old activity will become incompatible to
the newer state of being. One either gets ejected from the prior situation or move out on their
own accord.
For example, your job requires you to perform certain things and the driving factor of you
performing these thing at this speed is fear. But in the newer state of being, your
performances will suffer because you are less fear driven. So... in the end you leave the job or
gets fired. In either situation, you get ejected out of the old situation.
Perhaps... in the final stage, the yogi have to leave behind normal everyday life and live in
solitude.
This is my opinion...please correct me if i am wrong.

quote:

There is something to do... That is the gradual relinquishing of all endeavours.
For example, you cannot wish to be very rich and yet be liberated. The wish to be rich is
an attachment. So liberation and many of the activities of normal society must be
mutually-non exclusive. We cannot have all and yet want to liberate.
We cannot be engaged in certain activities and still thinks that we are liberated. The
activities that is being engaged is always due to certain desires...and/or fear. Fear is also
a form of desire...negative desire.
Perhaps, we live life to discover the karmic patterns that binds us to certain activities
and relationship. And we must take the additional step to clear these patterns...
resulting in transformation. In the process of transformation, the old activity will
become incompatible to the newer state of being. One either gets ejected from the prior
situation or move out on their own accord.
For example, your job requires you to perform certain things and the driving factor of
you performing these thing at this speed is fear. But in the newer state of being, your
performances will suffer because you are less fear driven. So... in the end you leave the
job or gets fired. In either situation, you get ejected out of the old situation.
Perhaps... in the final stage, the yogi have to leave behind normal everyday life and live
in solitude.
This is my opinion...please correct me if i am wrong.
Hi Longchen,
Fear is the painful emotion that arises from the act of resisting separation. It is usually
triggered by the apprehension that what we treasure deeply is in jeopardy. Fear is a
manifestation of a deep latent tendency of attachment (seed) in consciousness when
conditions are there, it emerges. The seed may also manifest as pleasure. The seed is the
cause and depending on conditions, it manifests differently. The manifestation can be
radically different, therefore we should not mistake the seed as the manifestation. When
conditions arent there, fear does not exist. Fear is not simply a thought; it is a whole
movement of flow taking place not only in thoughts, but in the forms, in the heart beats, in
the blood circulation, in our breathThe entire process is not something mechanical; it is
extremely organic, alive and vivid.
How does the seed get created? Through constant identification and attachment, patterns and
tendencies are formed and they sank deep beyond the layer of our ordinary consciousness. It
is these latent tendencies that are difficult to overcome when they meet conditions. It is good
to gain strength in a form of virtuous practice as the practice goes through the same process
and manifests positive qualities of the mind that helps to dissolve negative tendencies.
Once, I was meditating at night, the conditions for dream took place but I was well aware that
I was still meditating. In the dream, someone pass me a piece of cake to try ( sounded really
delicious)I took the cake, look at it and in the midst of putting it into my mouth in the
dream, I open my physical mouth!...heehee
Dont underestimate what that is latent deep in our consciousness.
An Eternal Now: 07 October 2006 10:51 PM
quote:
Hi Longchen,
Fear is the painful emotion that arises from the act of resisting separation. It is usually
triggered by the apprehension that what we treasure deeply is in jeopardy. Fear is a
manifestation of a deep latent tendency of attachment (seed) in consciousness when
conditions are there, it emerges. The seed may also manifest as pleasure. The seed is the
cause and depending on conditions, it manifests differently. The manifestation can be
radically different, therefore we should not mistake the seed as the manifestation. When
conditions arent there, fear does not exist. Fear is not simply a thought; it is a whole
movement of flow taking place not only in thoughts, but in the forms, in the heart beats,
in the blood circulation, in our breathThe entire process is not something mechanical;
it is extremely organic, alive and vivid.
How does the seed get created? Through constant identification and attachment,
patterns and tendencies are formed and they sank deep beyond the layer of our
ordinary consciousness. It is these latent tendencies that are difficult to overcome when
they meet conditions. It is good to gain strength in a form of virtuous practice as the
practice goes through the same process and manifests positive qualities of the mind that
helps to dissolve negative tendencies.
Once, I was meditating at night, the conditions for dream took place but I was well
aware that I was still meditating. In the dream, someone pass me a piece of cake to try (
sounded really delicious)I took the cake, look at it and in the midst of putting it into
my mouth in the dream, I open my physical mouth!...heehee
Dont underestimate what that is latent deep in our consciousness.

Wow.. what a wonderful post on Fear Anyway was just wondering... during the time where
conditions of your dream manifests, how would you know that you are meditating and
opening your mouth? Does the 5 sense consciousnesses continue to function?
Anyway I was reminded of something Teacher Chen mentioned when reading your post... he
taught that our everyday reactions to the external world can be summarised in four steps.
1) I see a mass of things
Because the 'thing' you saw is still distant away and you cannot see clearly, you also do not
know that you are looking at. There is just the Sight, and it is the functioning of our Buddha
Nature, Pristine Awareness. There is no mental reactions whatsoever (yet), nor labeling.
2) "Wah, Money!"
When we got closer to the object at the distant, we instantly recognised what it is - money.
The reason why we recognised it as money is because we have seen and used the money
before and many times, the currency is also familiar to us, we have planted the 'seed' of
'money' in our 8th consciousness and therefore, when the conditions are present, we
spontaneously recognised it as "money".
3) "I came first, this is mine"
Due to our ignorance and habitual defilements, we 'personalise' the situation by making a
stance that the money belongs to me, I came first, etc. Also known as 7th consciousness.
There starts to be grasping and seeking, desire and lust.
4) Sin committed, resulting in either landing up in jail or rebirth in hell
You took away the money you are not supposed to take away and share with those around
you, thereby committing a very heavy karma. The money could be used to save other people's
life or for other important reasons, but somehow out of ignorance you cannot resist the
temptations, and for that you will suffer karmic effects by ending up with a jail term and a
horrible afterlife.
----------
So moral of the story is... do not wait until Step 4, it is too late. When 'Step 2' happens, we
must instantly recognise it with mindfulness, and the thought is self-liberated. Otherwise we
will go on seeking and grasping, leading to step 3, and step 4. Step 2 is the Cause/Seed, and
Step 4 is the Effect. Step 1 is merely the functioning of our pristine awareness, buddha
nature.
Thank you Eternal Now and Thusness for the insightful posts.

quote:

[b]There is something to do... That is the gradual relinquishing of all endeavours.
This is very true, longchen. Ultimately all have to go.
quote:
For example, you cannot wish to be very rich and yet be liberated. The wish to be rich is an
attachment. So liberation and many of the activities of normal society must be mutually-non
exclusive. We cannot have all and yet want to liberate.
This is also true. To live adequately is wisdom. Ceaseless external pursuit is always due to
lack of life, vitality and clarity within us. As long as this deficy continues, pursuing
continues. If we experience these qualities innerly, we will not be swayed.
Having said so, opportunities will still arise as long as we are in a soceity. Engaging these
opportunities with a non-attachment in non-action is the way.
quote:
Perhaps, we live life to discover the karmic patterns that binds us to certain activities and
relationship. And we must take the additional step to clear these patterns... resulting in
transformation. In the process of transformation, the old activity will become incompatible to
the newer state of being. One either gets ejected from the prior situation or move out on their
own accord.
This is most important. Feel the effect of it.

Of late I have been reading some non-dual sites. Though the experience of non-duality is
there, it is just the entry towards the pathless, there is still a long way to go. Many got lost in
the clarity, vitality and intelligence aspects of Presence but fail to acknowledge how karmic
propensities work and take place. This is not spirituality; to some extend it is ignorance.
Know conditions, know that these propensities exist and continue to manifest in lives and
activities (for Buddhists if we do not have the sufficient insight and experience to penetrate
the present life, we have to take faith), then correct advice can be given. Going beyond
conditioning requires deep level of clarity of how the nature of consciousness works.
We must acknowledge that although the bond of 'self' is greatly loosen; it is far from being
totally eliminated. When our bodies are in great danger, we will realize how much
attachments we still have for them though there is the constant awareness that awareness is
the reality. Clarity can only come with the bond breaks. The letting go must be genuine, total
openness and receptivity is required to experience our true nature.
quote:
Perhaps... in the final stage, the yogi have to leave behind normal everyday life and live in
solitude.
]
Possibly but not conclusively. I do not deny that there are just certain aspects of
consciousness that require us to work undisturbed deligently. Sufficient level of clarity is
required to serve as the condition and momentum for deeper level of insight to take place. For
this, one might have to leave behind normal everyday life and live in solitude for a period of
time. But in the final stage, one's action is totally indeterminable.
quote:
Wow.. what a wonderful post on Fear Anyway was just wondering... during the time where
conditions of your dream manifests, how would you know that you are meditating and
opening your mouth? Does the 5 sense consciousnesses continue to function?
The key is in stilling the physical body into a state of complete rest if we want to practice
meditation over night. When the 'conditions' of sleep begin to manifest, the body begin to
paralyse and the senses dim down but the awareness is still there. When the physical body is
stil, we enter into 'thought body' phase. When thought is still, the state of bliss is experienced.
It is true that after the experience of certain fruition, there is the temptation to extend it
beyond sleep but this is highly not recommended. Though some spiritual teachers spoke of
mantaining awareness throughout the waking, dreaming and deep sleep phases, do not do that
if not under the guidance of highly experience meditators. More often than not, it will upset
the body mechancism, almost without fail. Bear this in mind. This is my advice.
quote:
Anyway I was reminded of something Teacher Chen mentioned when reading your post... he
taught that our everyday reactions to the external world can be summarised in four steps.
1) I see a mass of things
Because the 'thing' you saw is still distant away and you cannot see clearly, you also do not
know that you are looking at. There is just the Sight, and it is the functioning of our Buddha
Nature, Pristine Awareness. There is no mental reactions whatsoever (yet), nor labeling.
2) "Wah, Money!"
When we got closer to the object at the distant, we instantly recognised what it is - money.
The reason why we recognised it as money is because we have seen and used the money
before and many times, the currency is also familiar to us, we have planted the 'seed' of
'money' in our 8th consciousness and therefore, when the conditions are present, we
spontaneously recognised it as "money".
3) "I came first, this is mine"
Due to our ignorance and habitual defilements, we 'personalise' the situation by making a
stance that the money belongs to me, I came first, etc. Also known as 7th consciousness.
There starts to be grasping and seeking, desire and lust.
4) Sin committed, resulting in either landing up in jail or rebirth in hell
You took away the money you are not supposed to take away and share with those around
you, thereby committing a very heavy karma. The money could be used to save other people's
life or for other important reasons, but somehow out of ignorance you cannot resist the
temptations, and for that you will suffer karmic effects by ending up with a jail term and a
horrible afterlife.
----------
So moral of the story is... do not wait until Step 4, it is too late. When 'Step 2' happens, we
must instantly recognise it with mindfulness, and the thought is self-liberated. Otherwise we
will go on seeking and grasping, leading to step 3, and step 4. Step 2 is the Cause/Seed, and
Step 4 is the Effect. Step 1 is merely the functioning of our pristine awareness, buddha
nature.[/b]
Interesting analogy. That will provide insight to the ever grasping mind that there is a way
beyond thought. When the ability to sustain gathers strength, the bliss and beauty of clarity is
experienced. The grasping mind will be more willing to let go of itself for this higher mode of
insight to replace its dualitic knowing nature. Mindfulness must go hand in hand with the
understanding that there is no-self apart from the continous arising and ceasing. In fact there
is only the momentary manifestation. The mirror reflecting must go as it too is an illusion.
Only no-self and emptiness nature of reality is seen. its ultimate goal is to realise that there is
really only One Reality.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the detailed posts...They are very interesting and i fully agree.
regards
Hi Passerby (Source: http://now-for-
Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1285&) ~ Now-For-You
Forum
Passerby: Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject:
Claudia wrote:
Hi Passerby...can't sneak much past ol' Amadeus.
Welcome. Now that we have you in our clutches...who are you?
*sings*
I'm looking thru you, where did you go?

I thought I knew you, what did I know?
You don't look different but you have changed.
I'm looking thru you, you're not the same!
Hi Claudia,
Once I was a Body.

Later I became a Name.
Soon after I am merely I.
Then, there never was an I.
Now,
what else besides those words forming on the screen!
Phoenix: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:27 am Post subject:
Welcome Passerby,
as a flower blown out by the wind

goes to rest and cannot be defined
so the wise man freed from individuality
goes to rest and cannot be defined.
gone beyond all images-
gone beyond the power of words
From: Sutra Nipata

Passerby: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject:
Phoenix wrote:
Welcome Passerby,
as a flower blown out by the wind

goes to rest and cannot be defined
so the wise man freed from individuality
goes to rest and cannot be defined.
gone beyond all images-
gone beyond the power of words
From: Sutra Nipata
Going beyond the subtle influences of thought

The wise rest neither in form nor formless
Not found in this or that
In the flow of perpetual becoming
Ever is and ever One
Completely free, utterly traceless.
Thank you, Pheonix.
Physical pain is silly (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11616&highlight=#11616) ~
Now-For-You Forum
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:42 am Post subject:
Quote:
But always listen with your heart and be compassionate to all.
Good advice Thomas,
I'll take it!
compassion: sympathetic consciousness of other's distress together with a desire to alleviate

it.
Drop this-
Quote:
together with a desire to alleviate it.
Compassion itself will move one to action or not.

Alleviating it may or may not be the best action.
Dropping the desire- pure compassion, pure presence- sees- then acts or does not act.
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:12 am Post subject:
Quote:
Drop this-
Quote:
Dropping the desire- pure compassion, pure presence- sees- then acts or does not
act
I know exactly what you're saying here.
But when I wrote the definition from the dictionary I was thinking more in line with the
buddhist outlook on compassion. Wanting to free all sentient beings from samsara. ( I hope I
said that right. Where is Passerby when you need him?)
Okay.
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
Drop this-
Quote:
Dropping the desire- pure compassion, pure presence- sees- then acts or
does not act
I know exactly what you're saying here.

But when I wrote the definition from the dictionary I was thinking more in line
with the buddhist outlook on compassion. Wanting to free all sentient beings from
samsara. ( I hope I said that right. Where is Passerby when you need him?)
Missed this.
Yes I agree with Phoenix. The essence of anything cannot be known in advance, where
situation is, it arises. Naturalness is free of artificialities, when we define; it loses its
marvelous workings.
The experience of pristine awareness also differs in depth as well as in its manifoldness. A
formula I used for myself:
Clarity = 1/Self
It is the depth of clarity and the intensity of Presence experienced. It is almost natural that
even after the experience of our pristine awareness, we tend to sink back to a source, a center.
As much as I would not like to say, under careful scrutiny, it is still thought-like, it has all the
properties of thoughts with the ingredients of luminosity and aliveness.
There is also a time when the center completely subsides, essence of arising and sinking is
from what is alone and only in otherness it is seen.
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject:
Hi Passerby,
Quote:
It is the depth of clarity and the intensity of Presence experienced. It is almost
natural that even after the experience of our pristine awareness, we tend to sink
back to a source, a center. As much as I would not like to say, under careful
scrutiny, it is still thought-like, it has all the properties of thoughts with the
ingredients of luminosity and aliveness.
There is also a time when the center completely subsides, essence of arising and
sinking is from what is alone and only in otherness it is seen.
I'm going to need to read this a few times!
There never was a self (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1296) ~ Now-For-You
Forum
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: There never was a self
How deep does conditioning go?
This question is a hard candy.
You pop it in your mouth (consciousness).
And you suck on it (give it attention).
When I did this, I realized that everything I do is conditioning.
And then it followed that the whole world was conditioning, came from the mind.
But that wasn't quite right because events unfold that are totally random, wild, unaccoutable.
And then it dawned on me.
There's no such thing as conditioning.
When this sunk in, the thought came, "Where does that leave me?"
And there it was.
That pattern.
That pattern that repeats itself.
That pattern that repeats itself that I had always called "sense of self".
But there is realization that this pattern is just that, a pattern.
A pattern that repeats.
Thoughts that repeat.
There was the illusion that this pattern was a problem, was a sense of self.
Now it is realized that this pattern, this pattern that repeats, is simply a part of the Whole.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Passerby: Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: There never was a self
Amadeus wrote:
How deep does conditioning go?
This question is a hard candy.

You pop it in your mouth (consciousness).
And you suck on it (give it attention).
When I did this, I realized that everything I do is conditioning.
And then it followed that the whole world was conditioning, came from the mind.
But that wasn't quite right because events unfold that are totally random, wild,
unaccoutable.
And then it dawned on me.
There's no such thing as conditioning.
When this sunk in, the thought came, "Where does that leave me?"
And there it was.
That pattern.
That pattern that repeats itself.
That pattern that repeats itself that I had always called "sense of self".
But there is realization that this pattern is just that, a pattern.
A pattern that repeats.
Thoughts that repeat.
There was the illusion that this pattern was a problem, was a sense of self.
Now it is realized that this pattern, this pattern that repeats, is simply a part of the
Whole.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Excellent Amadeus! Couldn't put it better. The great insight of going beyond changing 'thing'.
The 'thing' doesn't exist, only change.
Quote:
Now it is realized that this pattern, this pattern that repeats, is simply a part of the
Whole.
What is at the center of your being?
Is there division?
Or
Is there wholeness.
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
Now it is realized that this pattern, this pattern that repeats, is simply a
part of the Whole.
What is at the center of your being?
Is there division?
Or
Is there wholeness.
there is always wholeness, only assumed division.

The subtle effort leading to 'knowing' that creates the center, is offset by its own resistance.
Hi Passerby,
Quote:
Excellent Amadeus! Couldn't put it better. The great insight of going beyond
changing 'thing'. The 'thing' doesn't exist, only change.
I posted this on another thread:
Quote:
.... so there is no attempt at being consistent, at holding a certain point of view.
Everything is very fluid, flowing continually, forever changing, manifesting as

it will, whenever and however it will.
To identify with a certain truth, to hold a certain point of view (and then needing to
let it go later on) is the illusion, is the illusion of self.
Stop identifying.
Stop grasping.
Let go.
Amadeus wrote:
Hi Passerby,
Quote:
Excellent Amadeus! Couldn't put it better. The great insight of going
beyond changing 'thing'. The 'thing' doesn't exist, only change.
I posted this on another thread:
Quote:
.... so there is no attempt at being consistent, at holding a certain point of
view.
Everything is very fluid, flowing continually, forever changing,

manifesting as it will, whenever and however it will.
To identify with a certain truth, to hold a certain point of view (and then
needing to let it go later on) is the illusion, is the illusion of self.
Stop identifying.
Stop grasping.
Let go.
With this insight, the momentum of the pattern continues but without re-enforement, rises
and falls in its own accord (otherwise there is constant re-enforcement) until karmic pattern
ends. On the other hand, the ruling mode of 'knowing' which is dualistic is replaced by
'beingness' and Presence continues its stream of Nowness.
Sunsetbreak: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:22 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
With this insight, the momentum of the pattern continues but without re-
enforement, rises and falls in its own accord (otherwise there is constant re-
enforcement) until karmic pattern ends. On the other hand, the ruling mode of
'knowing' which is dualistic is replaced by 'beingness' and Presence continues its
stream of Nowness.
How can ANY karmic patterns exist in the presence of beingness/presence?

Passerby: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:33 am Post subject:
sunsetbreak wrote:
How can ANY karmic patterns exist in the presence of beingness/presence?
Right now mindfully aware, a truck approaching...hitting!!!!
Not about thoughts though.
Good question, Thanks!

Sunsetbreak: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:54 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Lets say a lion in the wild is climbin a tree and slips and falls and cuts himself on a branch...is
this karma?
Passerby: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:14 am Post subject:
sunsetbreak wrote:
Passerby wrote:

Lets say a lion in the wild is climbin a tree and slips and falls and cuts himself on a
branch...is this karma?
That is another story. In the example that u raised, it is a topic that involves the mysterious
working of karma; one of the 4 imponderables in Buddhism. Which requires a certain degree
of faith.
Maybe the word 'karmic' is misleading. You can take it to mean a deep level of attachment
and conditioning. For the case of truck, just that very moment, is the 'attachment' that lies
deep in the consiousness experienced? That which challenges that 'we are pure
awareness'...No answer is really necessary. Just the awareness that is.
If the intensity of Presence experenced is already that strong, the bliss one experiences will
also be of different dimension.
Nice chat!
John Wheeler (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11878) ~ Now-For-You
Forum
Flower: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: John Wheeler
I took this bit from Matthew Cromer's blogspot which is a lovely place to go. (
http://releasetheillusion.blogspot.com/ ) I keep coming back to this exract from John
Wheeler's teachings....
Quote:
...most of what we perceive as problems in life are ultimately traceable to the
views we have of ourselves. The external events of life, in the last analysis, are
entirely incapable of touching your own true nature, just like clouds in the sky do
not touch the sun. The sun stands ever free and untouched, no matter what goes on
below. In exactly same way, all thoughts, feelings, events and situations appear
and subside right in present awareness. That is what you are. That is never lost,
clouded over or compromised at any time. How can it be, when it is that very
presence of awareness that is knowing any and all possible thoughts and feelings?
Amadeus: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject:
I can't help but see the duality now in all of John Wheeler's and Sailor Bob's writing.
They have discovered that they are just awareness.
That is fine.
But they are grasping this with the mind, and it has turned into a belief.
Instead of letting go of All thought they are stuck at this level of thinking.
You are NOT just awareness, you are everything that is.
Sidewinder: Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:53 am Post subject:
Quote:
It's funny, Amadeus, because you hardly ever see that written. All you hear is "you are pure
awareness." That's what I recall anyhow from reading all the texts.
That's what held me in its grips for a long time. I couldn't get around it no matter how I
"looked" at it. It never made any sense.
Just recently it all came together for me: I have realized my formlessness. I'm quite lucid that
I am every 'thing' and no 'thing' simultaneously. This is what I was searching for. Everything
is "transparent" - especially my body. Whatever happens from this point, who knows. I'm
game, though!
John Wheeler and Sailor Bob are great, really really great. But they are just offering pointers.
There is nothing 'special' about any teacher. I think a lot of these 'teachers' have a lot invested
into the dream of being a teacher (Sailor Bob would be the exception); which is fine of
course, life should be fun! But just don't take these teachers so literally. Words are dualistic...
so you work with what you have to work with. There is not much that has to be "understand"
before it's all said and done with.. we just end up splitting hairs.
LOOK BEYOND THE WORDS. THEY ARE JUST POINTERS.
There comes a point where one needs to drop all concepts.
There is only Oneness.

Passerby: Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject:
sidewinder wrote:
Quote:
It's funny, Amadeus, because you hardly ever see that written. All you hear is "you
are pure awareness." That's what I recall anyhow from reading all the texts.
It is written but in another form. Isn't it clearly -- Chop wood, Carry Water!
Quote:
That's what held me in its grips for a long time. I couldn't get around it no matter
how I "looked" at it. It never made any sense.
Just recently it all came together for me: I have realized my formlessness. I'm quite
lucid that I am every 'thing' and no 'thing' simultaneously. This is what I was
searching for. Everything is "transparent" - especially my body. Whatever
happens from this point, who knows. I'm game, though!
This is the key -- transparent! Total transparency has no sinking back to a source. The true
face is seen. There is only One. Nothing else.
Quote:
John Wheeler and Sailor Bob are great, really really great. But they are just
offering pointers. There is nothing 'special' about any teacher. I think a lot of these
'teachers' have a lot invested into the dream of being a teacher (Sailor Bob would
be the exception); which is fine of course, life should be fun! But just don't take
these teachers so literally. Words are dualistic... so you work with what you have
to work with. There is not much that has to be "understand" before it's all said and
done with.. we just end up splitting hairs.
LOOK BEYOND THE WORDS. THEY ARE JUST POINTERS.
Yes good pointers. Unfortunately liberation cannot be compromised.
Quote:
There comes a point where one needs to drop all concepts.

There is only Oneness.
Da Da Da...keyboard sounds!
Amadeus wrote:
I can't help but see the duality now in all of John Wheeler's and Sailor Bob's
writing.
They have discovered that they are just awareness.
That is fine.
But they are grasping this with the mind, and it has turned into a belief.
Instead of letting go of All thought they are stuck at this level of thinking.
Well said but don't get whacked!

Good Luck!
AnEternalNow: Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:17 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
sidewinder wrote:
Quote:
It's funny, Amadeus, because you hardly ever see that written. All you
hear is "you are pure awareness." That's what I recall anyhow from
reading all the texts.
It is written but in another form. Isn't it clearly -- Chop wood, Carry Water!
Just found another one:
Quote:
Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware.
[b]Responding, perceiving, arching your brows, blinking your eyes, moving
your hands and feet, it's all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is
the mind. And the mind is the buddha. And the buddha is the path. And the path is
zen. But the word zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages.
Seeing your nature is zen. Unless you see your nature, it's not zen.
- Bodhidharma (first Zen Patriarch in China)
Bodhidharma's Bloodstream Sermon[/b]
Just being (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1299) ~ Now-For-You
Forum
Amadeus: Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject:
This evening attention was being powerfully redirected within.
There was a slight perception that I was doing it.
But it was much too easy and it was being done way too well for the effort put into it.
So, there is a reclamation of attention from within.
Attention is being redirected within to it's source.
The stream of consciousness is returning to it's source.
I remember something Ramana wrote about this.
He said a man is a fool who ventures out into the hot noonday sun.
Instead of staying in the cool shade of the tree.

Amadeus wrote:
This evening attention was being powerfully redirected within.
There was a slight perception that I was doing it.
But it was much too easy and it was being done way too well for the effort put into
it.
So, there is a reclamation of attention from within.
Attention is being redirected within to it's source.
The stream of consciousness is returning to it's source.
I remember something Ramana wrote about this.
He said a man is a fool who ventures out into the hot noonday sun.
Instead of staying in the cool shade of the tree.
Don't worry about the source! It can't be lost, not even for a thought moment!
In no mirror reflecting, there is no compromise! Directly right into the heart of

everything...just Everything!
Buddhist Practise, True Enlightenment: cont. of Hi

Forum Topic:
Everyone
An Eternal Now: 17 October 2006 06:32 PM3
Original topic: Hi everyone
Originally I posted this post in that topic but I decided to open a new topic because the topic
is too big.
--------------
quote:
Hi Longchen,
After some thoughtto prevent one from getting overly excited about the experience of
total vitality, total intelligence, total luminous clarity aspect of our pristine awareness
and forgot about the importance of causes and conditions

Pristine Awareness cannot be contained within a 6-foot body -- neither within nor
without. The bond makes it so.
When conditions are, there is. There is no need for a 'who', when or where, only
causes and conditions are necessary. This is its nature.

The self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and
cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with
the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where
to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.
Someone asked me this question, which I found v good.
Knowing ur experience (from stage 1 to 6), how u think a buddhist shld cultivate to avoid the
pitfalls that u encountered, and to directly cultivate towards true enlightenment?
quote:

Original topic: Hi everyone
Originally I posted this post in that topic but I decided to open a new topic because the
topic is too big.
--------------
Someone asked me this question, which I found v good.
Knowing ur experience (from stage 1 to 6), how u think a buddhist shld cultivate to
avoid the pitfalls that u encountered, and to directly cultivate towards true
enlightenment?
In Buddhism what that is most important is the no-mirror reflecting (stage 5). That is entry
towards pathless and effortless. Without it, all rest is the bond at work and continual creation
of wholesome actions to counter unwholesome action.
Many non-dual fail to realize the deep latent propensities in our consciousness. Not knowing
that the progressive stages that one undergone are nothing but mere working of these
tendencies. This is a pity. Failure to realize this, one fails to see how consciousness works.
Constant identification itself will create this pattern that sinks deep into consciousness. Take
note. No one can escape, not even the Blessed One. There always has been no-self, there is
only One Reality but the propensities over countless lifetimes will continue to take place
through mere momentum. This is what we are all facing.
Knowing this, right and firm establishment of view of the dharma seals is most crucial.
Through diligent practice of mindfulness and together with the right views from start will
help to prevent unnecessary pitfalls. Any transcendental experiences and insights that
occurred during our journey will then be correctly understood. The experiences will in turn
re-enforce our understanding instead of misleading us into the sense of 'Self' and further
strengthen the bond.
quote:
In Buddhism what that is most important is the no-mirror reflecting (stage 5). That is
entry towards pathless and effortless. Without it, all rest is the bond at work and
continual creation of wholesome actions to counter unwholesome action.
Many non-dual fail to realize the deep latent propensities in our consciousness. Not
knowing that the progressive stages that one undergone are nothing but mere working
of these tendencies. This is a pity. Failure to realize this, one fails to see how
consciousness works.
Constant identification itself [b]will create this pattern that sinks deep into consciousness.
Take note. No one can escape, not even the Blessed One. There always has been no-self,
there is only One Reality but the propensities over countless lifetimes will continue to take
place through mere momentum. This is what we are all facing.
Knowing this, right and firm establishment of view of the dharma seals is most crucial.
Through diligent practice of mindfulness and together with the right views from start will
help to prevent unnecessary pitfalls. Any transcendental experiences and insights that
occurred during our journey will then be correctly understood. The experiences will in turn
re-enforce our understanding instead of misleading us into the sense of 'Self' and further
strengthen the bond.
[/b]
Thanks for your clear reply.. Certainly answered our questions
Forum Topic: so in conclusion buddhism can be summarised as

quote:
mind is made up of thoughts
In Buddhism, mind is a faculty (6th consciousness) in which gives attentions to mind objects.
Whenever a thought is attended, objectified, 'thinking' happens and consciousness arises. The
very nature of this consciousness is pure awareness, although due to dualistic discrimination,
consciousness arises.
quote:
http://www.diamondway.org/usa/3shamar_change2.php
the momentary mind
The sixth consciousness, the mental faculty, has for its object any knowable thing. This is
known as the momentary mind, whose subtle sensory faculty is mental in nature. It is called
the momentary mind because it occurs each moment mental cognition begins or ceases. This
moment allows mental perception to occur; it is the space between consciousness and its
object. This is like a space between one's face and a mirror, without which it would be
impossible to see oneself. The momentary mind is the gap that separates consciousness and
its object, the distance between them. However, it is not a vacuum, but something mental in
nature. Through meditation it is possible for the mind to know its own sensory faculty.
The six sensory faculties, the six fragmentary consciousnesses belonging to them, and the six
objects which stimulate them, all emerge from the fundamental consciousness and dissolve
back into it like waves rising up and sinking into the ocean. All these eighteen different
factors are mind's projections, including the so-called sensory objects, which have no
material reality. In addition, these different factors exist only in relation to each other, and not
independently in their own right.
How does this interdependent relationship of the sensory processes occur? Since
beginningless time, out habitual behavior, derived from ignorance, has left traces that are
stored in the fundamental consciousness. The fundamental consciousness fails to recognize
its own true nature and takes itself and the five psycho-physical constituents (skandhas in
Sanskrit) to be a 'self'. This mistaken belief causes the emotional afflictions to emerge, which
then govern behavior. The self's actions are subject to the law of cause and effect, leaving
traces or propensities that are stored in the fundamental consciousness until they ripen,
producing the realm of perception that corresponds to that particular propensity. For example,
if the potential for becoming a human being is stored in the fundamental consciousness, when
this ripens, there will emerge the six sensory faculties, their six objects, and the six
fragmentary consciousnesses proper to human existence.
The basis for perception of the world is the fragmentary consciousness of the mental faculty,
or the momentary mind, because it is this which conceptualizes the objects received by the
other five sensory faculties, retaining them, distinguishing one from the other, and then
inclining towards or away from them. This is one kind of attachment. Another kind is that
formed by the emotionally afflicted mind. The nature of the emotional mind is the same as
that of the momentary mind, although the ensuing attachment happens in a slightly different
way.
longchen: 11 November 2006 08:38 AM
quote:

In Buddhism, mind is a faculty (6th consciousness) in which gives attentions to mind
objects. Whenever a thought is attended, objectified, 'thinking' happens and
consciousness arises. The very nature of this consciousness is pure awareness, although
due to dualistic discrimination, consciousness arises.
quote:http://www.diamondway.org/usa/3shamar_change2.php
the momentary mind
The sixth consciousness, the mental faculty, has for its object any knowable thing. This
is known as the momentary mind, whose subtle sensory faculty is mental in nature. It is
called the momentary mind because it occurs each moment mental cognition begins or
ceases. This moment allows mental perception to occur; it is the space between
consciousness and its object. This is like a space between one's face and a mirror,
without which it would be impossible to see oneself. The momentary mind is the gap
that separates consciousness and its object, the distance between them. However, it is
not a vacuum, but something mental in nature. Through meditation it is possible for the
mind to know its own sensory faculty.
The six sensory faculties, the six fragmentary consciousnesses belonging to them, and
the six objects which stimulate them, all emerge from the fundamental consciousness
and dissolve back into it like waves rising up and sinking into the ocean. All these
eighteen different factors are mind's projections, including the so-called sensory objects,
which have no material reality. In addition, these different factors exist only in relation
to each other, and not independently in their own right.
How does this interdependent relationship of the sensory processes occur? Since
beginningless time, out habitual behavior, derived from ignorance, has left traces that
are stored in the fundamental consciousness. The fundamental consciousness fails to
recognize its own true nature and takes itself and the five psycho-physical constituents
(skandhas in Sanskrit) to be a 'self'. This mistaken belief causes the emotional afflictions
to emerge, which then govern behavior. The self's actions are subject to the law of cause
and effect, leaving traces or propensities that are stored in the fundamental
consciousness until they ripen, producing the realm of perception that corresponds to
that particular propensity. For example, if the potential for becoming a human being is
stored in the fundamental consciousness, when this ripens, there will emerge the six
sensory faculties, their six objects, and the six fragmentary consciousnesses proper to
human existence.
The basis for perception of the world is the fragmentary consciousness of the mental
faculty, or the momentary mind, because it is this which conceptualizes the objects
received by the other five sensory faculties, retaining them, distinguishing one from the
other, and then inclining towards or away from them. This is one kind of attachment.
Another kind is that formed by the emotionally afflicted mind. The nature of the
emotional mind is the same as that of the momentary mind, although the ensuing
attachment happens in a slightly different way.
Thanks for the sharing.... 'I am' currently embarking onto a new stage... and this article seems
to correlates.
'I am' now, at times, seeing how mind cognate and sees 'things' and 'individual'. This is an
unconscious gripping habit that forms concepts from perceptions that are derive from the
other streams that forms the sensory data... all of which are 'streams' of cause and effects.
For, in truth, there are no things and no individuals. Just as there is no 'you' as a self, there are
no others as 'self' too. It is the amazing cogniting functions of mind that 'illusionate' and
conceptualises perceptions into things, environment and individuals.
In truth, there is only one Universal Mind...and 'beyond/without' the cognition of mind that is
no 'purpose'. ' Purpose' or meaning are all conceptualised at the cognitive level... that is why...
the deeper state of nature cannot be known through discussion and arguing... because all
these activities are operating at the conceptual and cognitive level.
Just my opinion...please read with discernment... thanks.

Cenarious: 11 November 2006 12:43 PM
quote:
Thanks for the sharing.... 'I am' currently embarking onto a new stage... and this article
seems to correlates.
'I am' now, at times, seeing how mind cognate and sees 'things' and 'individual'. This is
an unconscious gripping habit that forms concepts from perceptions that are derive
from the other streams that forms the sensory data... all of which are 'streams' of cause
and effects.
For, in truth, there are no things and no individuals. Just as there is no 'you' as a self,
there are no others as 'self' too. It is the amazing cogniting functions of mind that
'illusionate' and conceptualises perceptions into things, environment and individuals.
In truth, there is only one Universal Mind...and 'beyond/without' the cognition of mind
that is no 'purpose'. ' Purpose' or meaning are all conceptualised at the cognitive level...
that is why... the deeper state of nature cannot be known through discussion and
arguing... because all these activities are operating at the conceptual and cognitive level.
Just my opinion...please read with discernment... thanks.
purpose has to do with habit-energy isn't it? no habit-energy means no purpose right?
quote:
purpose has to do with habit-energy isn't it? no habit-energy means no purpose right?
You play computer game?
We know the computer game is just a game. But when we are playing we try to better the
opponent and survive. When you are playing the game... the game is so exciting and real and
you try your very best to survive.... the game has a lot of meaning for you. If you don't
understand the game... you watch the game and you do not feel anything at all...
understand?
quote:
We know the computer game is just a game. But when we are playing we try to better
the opponent and survive. When you are playing the game... the game is so exciting and
real and you try your very best to survive.... the game has a lot of meaning for you. If
you don't understand the game... you watch the game and you do not feel anything at
all...
understand?
thats habit energy getting you to become excited after understanding the game isnt it, and all
your reactions, or even playing the game
longchen: 11 November 2006 11:47 PM
quote:
thats habit energy getting you to become excited after understanding the game isnt it,
and all your reactions, or even playing the game
Yah... something like that.

quote:
Yah... something like that.
so i can realise quantum physics with my bare mind after that??!?!
Longchen: 12 November 2006 12:30 AM
quote:
so i can realise quantum physics with my bare mind after that??!?!
Dunno about the quantum physics part
But if you can get to the point of an initial total bare mind...that is... no sensory perception
and no thoughts...you will experience that the sense of being at a location (here-ness) is no
more....
You will experience the amazing experience of infinity and all pervading-ness. that is being
everywhere at the same time. And when you come back to your senses... you will say 'wow!'.
The truth is so different from the everyday consciousness....
No point thinking too much.... it doesn't help. Get a first hand experience.
quote:
Dunno about the quantum physics part

But if you can get to the point of an initial total bare mind...that is... no sensory perception
and no thoughts...you will experience that the sense of being at a location (here-ness) is no
more....
You will experience the amazing experience of infinity and all pervading-ness. that is being
everywhere at the same time. And when you come back to your senses... you will say 'wow!'.
The truth is so different from the everyday consciousness....
No point thinking too much.... it doesn't help. Get a first hand experience.
Yes Longchen,
Transcendental glimpses are misled by the cognitive faculty of our mind. That mode of
cognition is dualistic. All is Mind but this mind is not to be taken as Self. I Am, Eternal
Witness, are all products of our cognition and is the root cause that prevents true seeing.
The who, where and when, the I, here and now must ultimately give way to the
experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is
sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total
transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen
everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice.
Experience all appearance with total vitality, vividness and clarity. They are really our
Pristine Awareness, every moment and everywhere in all its manifolds and diversities. When
causes and conditions is, manifestation is, when manifestation is, Awareness is. All is the one
reality.
quote:
Hi Cenarious,
It is better to practice the meditation first.
Actually conceptually understanding these concepts is not helpful at all. I am not saying these
out of arrogance... but this has been my experience.
In fact, i have wasted many years reading too much and getting mislead by all kinds of
informations. It is much more helpful to practice. From my experience, most of all spiritual
informations available are misleading...
Let the direct expereinces and your intuition be your guide. Even the first transcendental
glimpses are not totally clear. Even until now... I am far from completing my path. ... It is
with hope that it be completed in this lifetime.
The spiritual path may be the most demanding and difficult project that one can ever
undertake.
Never underestimate the extreme subtleness...
Great advice! There is no short cut in spiritual practice.
May this life be your last life.
An Eternal Now: 14 November 2006 09:22 AM
quote:
Yes Longchen,
The who, where and when, the I, here and now must ultimately give way to the experience of
total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will
become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized,
transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi
bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice.
reality.
Am i right to say that to experience total presence is to experience total

transparency/dharmakaya?
Isis: 14 November 2006 12:33 PM
quote:
Yes Longchen,
reality.
Hi Thusness,
May i ask what is a Transcendental glimpses ? can give an example.
quote:
Yes Longchen,
reality.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks again
quote:
Hi Thusness,
May i ask what is a Transcendental glimpses ? can give an example.
They are moments of insights or experiences into something pure, real and divine. Telling us
that we are more than a body.
quote:

Am i right to say that to experience total presence is to experience total
transparency/dharmakaya?
No...not the dharmakaya. Just brought out total transparency because it is a distinct phase and
experience along the journey of experiencing no-self. It is just a pointer that one should have
this experience and this experience must be stabilized.
Total transparency is <b>NOT</b> about seeing awareness as an invisible, formless, pure,

divine and real or experiencing oneself as total life. This can result in wrongly identifying
oneself as the Eternal Witness, the Atman.
Total transparency is the true experience of anatta. That apart from the phenomena arising
and ceasing, there is no 'self' or 'Self' to be found anywhere. That 'I' and 'Self' completely
dissapear. It is not something theoritical or conceptual. It is the truth that has been distorted
by dualistic perception. It is a very distinct phase of transiting from dualistic experience
quote:
Hi Thusness,
mm what form of practise and cultivation ( sufferings =P ) did you undergo to experience
this? hehe
I could say it takes one to walk the path to truly understand what you had said..
and strangely speaking, i couldn't understand what you had said initally but the more i read
and re-read over a few times.. it feels familar..
Hi Isis,
My practice starts after the experience of the deep joy of Presence and there after practice is
always in the form of finding more about myself and the experience, i.e, who we really are.
Suffering is inevitable in the beginning because our mind is so accustom to think in a
dualistic mode. The challenge becomes more intense when we delve deeper till a point that
we are completely confused. This is all because we are engaging a wrong approach towards
understanding our true nature. Employing our current system of enquiry asking who,
when and where will end us up into experiencing our true nature as Eternal Witness, Soul
or God. That is the best the thinking mind can go. This is because the way we cognize is
through employing symbols and labels and God, logos is the ultimate symbol. But this is not
what our true nature is. To truly experience our boundless, limitness nature, I have come to
the conclusion that Buddha's way is the most appropriate way.
If we were to practice mindfulness from start and learn to experience things in bare. We
develop this intuitive mode of directly experiencing things as they are. Together with firm
understanding of the basic teaching of Buddha, we will be able to break this habitual energy
of seeing things in a dualistic mode. Buddha never taught about who instead he made
Anatta a Dharma Seal; nothing about inherent existence, instead impermanence and oneness.
Never about first cause but about Dependent Origination that will eventually lead us into
seeing things as unborn, no coming and going. He taught mindfulness as the preferred way of
meditation and said that it will lead us into enlightenment. All these can be experienced right
here and now. We should take it seriously. It will eliminate a lot of unnecessary sufferings.
Isis: 16 November 2006 01:47 PM

quote:
Hi Isis,
or God. That is the best the thinking mind can go. This is because the way we cognize is
the conclusion that Buddha's way is the most appropriate way.
ic...
Frankly speaking, my mind and emotion was rather unsettled after reading this thread since
yesterday... quite confounded with your description of the pristine buddha nature... as it is not
within the grasp of my intellectual understanding, experience and the wisdom to comprehend
it yet.
Do you think... As i process your information, my mind is in a form dualistic mode? as im

trying to understand it..
i feel familar cos it seem possibly real...
Im confused with what i had already know and had just known.. Perhpas the best way is by
starting to practising and slowly understand it...
Guess i have to start practising mindfulness from here onwards on... first..
Thank for the replying

quote:
ic...
Frankly speaking, my mind and emotion was rather unsettled after reading this thread since
yesterday... quite confounded with your description of the pristine buddha nature... as it is not
within the grasp of my intellectual understanding, experience and the wisdom to comprehend
it yet.
Do you think... As i process your information, my mind is in a form dualistic mode? as im

trying to understand it..
i feel familar cos it seem possibly real...
Im confused with what i had already know and had just known.. Perhpas the best way is by
starting to practising and slowly understand it...
Guess i have to start practising mindfulness from here onwards on... first..
Thank for the replying
Like what Longchen said,
"The spiritual path may be the most demanding and difficult project that one can ever
undertake.
Never underestimate the extreme subtleness... "

Challenging the limits of our thinking mechanism is quite an achievement.
Be patient and good luck.
neutral_onliner: 16 November 2006 11:54 PM
quote:
Hi Isis,
or God That is the best the thinking mind can go. This is because the way we cognize is
the conclusion that Buddha's way is the most appropriate way..
Yes..how true.Sadly this is the flaw in human logic thinking. For example if one take a look
at God based religions all have similar concepts like concept of god, soul theory, eternal hell
or eternal heaven. All this concept are produced by such dualistic thinking mode.
quote:
Yes..how true.Sadly this is the flaw in human logic thinking. For example if one take a look
at God based religions all have similar concepts like concept of god, soul theory, eternal hell
or eternal heaven. All this concept are produced by such dualistic thinking mode.
Indeed.
To think is to dig into our memory bank for similar experiences. It is to categorize, associate
and relate from a known pool of data. Asking what is anything is similar to asking what and
which group it belongs to. To know is to infer, deduce, measure and compare. We got so
attached to this mechanistic mode of knowing that we are hypnotized to believe that reality is
in accordance to this pattern. But this is just merely a system of enquiry created by the mind
to make sense of the universe. It is not the only way towards knowledge. When we attempt to
understanding our own true nature, we are lost. Such mode of enquiry cannot cope with the
dynamics, timelessness and boundless characteristic of our nature. When we examine
mindfulness, we will realise that it is a technique that has the quality to deal with these
characteristics. It is pointless to do nothing and complain and yet want to understand the
mystery of life. There truly exist a way towards unlocking this mystery of life. The Blessed
One is compasionate, he has shown us the way. To quench the thirst, we have to be sincere
with our practice and experience it ourselves.
quote:
We know the computer game is just a game. But when we are playing we try to better
the opponent and survive. When you are playing the game... the game is so exciting and
real and you try your very best to survive.... the game has a lot of meaning for you. If
you don't understand the game... you watch the game and you do not feel anything at
all...
understand?
Yes... the whole human life is like a game or a 'lila'. It reminds me of this passage (the terms
he used aren't really Buddhist but I feel this passage is relevant here):
quote:
http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/pathwa_titoat.cfm/
Pathways: Why does Spirit bother to manifest at all, especially when that manifestation is
necessarily painful and requires that It become amnesiac to Its true identity? Why does God
incarnate?
Ken Wilber: Oh, I see youre starting with the easy questions. Well, Ill give you a few
theoretical answers that have been offered over the years, and then Ill give you my personal
experience, such as it is.
I have actually asked this same question of several spiritual teachers, and one of them gave a
quick, classic answer: Its no fun having dinner alone.
Thats sort of flip or flippant, I suppose, but the more you think about it, the more it starts to
make sense. What if, just for the fun of it, we pretend -- you and I blasphemously pretend,
just for a moment -- that we are Spirit, that Tat Tvam Asi? Why would you, if you were God
Almighty, why would you manifest a world? A world that, as you say, is necessarily one of
separation and turmoil and pain? Why would you, as the One, ever give rise to the Many?
Pathways: Its no fun having dinner alone?
Ken Wilber: Doesnt that start to make sense? Here you are, the One and Only, the Alone and
the Infinite. What are you going to do next? You bathe in your own glory for all eternity, you
bask in your own delight for ages upon ages, and then what? Sooner or later, you might
decide that it would be fun -- just fun -- to pretend that you were not you. I mean, what else
are you going to do? What else can you do?
Pathways: Manifest a world.
Ken Wilber: Dont you think? But then it starts to get interesting. When I was a child, I used
to try to play checkers with myself. You ever tried that?
Pathways: Yes, I remember doing something like that.
Ken Wilber: Does it work?
Pathways: Not exactly, because I always knew what my opponents move was going to be.
I was playing both sides, so I couldnt surprise myself. I always knew what I was going to
do on both sides, so it wasnt much of a game. You need somebody else to play the game.
Ken Wilber: Yes, exactly, thats the problem. You need an other. So if you are the only
Being in all existence, and you want to play -- you want to play any sort of game -- you have
to take the role of the other, and then forget that you are playing both sides. Otherwise the
game is no fun, as you say. You have to pretend you are the other player with such conviction
that you forget that you are playing all the roles. If you dont forget, then you got no game,
its just no fun.
Pathways: So if you want to play -- I think the Eastern term is lila -- then you have to forget
who you are. Amnesis.
Ken Wilber: Yes, I think so. And that is exactly the core of the answer given by the mystics
the world over. If you are the One, and -- out of sheer exuberance, plenitude, superabundance
-- you want to play, to rejoice, to have fun, then you must first, manifest the Many, and then
second, forget it is you who are the Many. Otherwise, no game. Manifestation, incarnation, is
the great Game of the One playing at being the Many, for the sheer sport and fun of it.
Pathways: But its not always fun.
Ken Wilber: Well, yes and no. The manifest world is a world of opposites -- of pleasure
versus pain, up versus down, good versus evil, subject versus object, light versus shadow. But
if you are going to play the great cosmic Game, that is what you yourself set into motion.
How else can you do it? If there are no parts and no players and no suffering and no Many,
then you simply remain as the One and Only, Alone and Aloof. But its no fun having dinner
alone.
Pathways: So to start the game of manifestation is start the world of suffering.
Ken Wilber: It starts to look like that, doesnt it? And the mystics seem to agree. But there is
a way out of that suffering, a way to be free of the opposites, and that involves the
overwhelming and direct realization that Spirit is not good versus evil, or pleasure versus
pain, or light versus dark, or life versus death, or whole versus part, or holistic versus
analytic. Spirit is the great Player that gives rise to all those opposites equally -- I the Lord
make the Light to fall on the good and the bad alike; I the Lord do all these things -- and the
mystics the world over agree. Spirit is not the good half of the opposites, but the ground of all
the opposites, and our salvation, as it were, is not to find the good half of the dualism but to
find the Source of both halves of the dualism, for that is what we are in truth. We are both
sides in the great Game of Life, because we -- you and I, in the deepest recesses of our very
Self -- have created both of these opposites in order to have a grand game of cosmic checkers.
That, anyway, is the theoretical answer that the mystics almost always give. Nonduality
means, as the Upanishads put it, to be freed of the pairs. That is, the great liberation
consists in being freed of the pairs of opposites, freed of duality -- and finding instead the
nondual One Taste that gives rise to both. This is liberation because we cease the impossible,
painful dream of spending our entire lives trying to find an up without a down, an inside
without an outside, a good without an evil, a pleasure without its inevitable pain.
Pathways: You said that you had a more personal response as well.
Ken Wilber: Yes, such as it is. When I first experienced, however haltingly, nirvikalpa
samadhi -- which means, meditative absorption in the formless One -- I remember having
the vague feeling -- very subtle, very faint -- that I didnt want to be alone in this wonderful
expanse. I remember feeling, very diffusely but very insistently, that I wanted to share this
with somebody. So what would one do in that state of loneliness?
Pathways: Manifest the world.
Ken Wilber: Thats how it seems to me. And I knew, however amateurishly, that if I came
out of that formless Oneness and recognized the world of the Many, that I would then suffer,
because the Many always hurt each other, as well as help each other. And you know what? I
was glad to surrender the peace of the One even though it meant the pain of the Many. Now
this is just a little tongue taste of what the great mystics have seen, but my limited experience
seems to conform to their great pronouncement: You are the One freely giving rise to the
Many -- to pain and pleasure and all the opposites -- because you choose not to abide as the
exquisite loneliness of Infinity, and because you dont want to have dinner alone.
Pathways: And the pain that is involved?
Ken Wilber: Is freely chosen as part of the necessary Game of Life. You cannot have a
manifest world without all the opposites of pleasure and pain. And to get rid of the pain -- the
sin, the suffering, the duhkha -- you must remember who and what you really are. This
remembrance, this recollection, this anamnesis -- Do this in Remembrance of Me -- means,
Do this in Remembrance of the Self that You Are -- Tat Tvam Asi. The great mystical
religions the world over consist of a series of profound practices to quiet the small self that
we pretend we are -- which causes the pain and suffering that you feel -- and awaken as the
Great Self that is our own true ground and goal and destiny -- Let this consciousness be in
you which was in Christ Jesus.
Pathways: Is this realization an all-or-nothing affair?
Ken Wilber: Not usually. Its often a series of glimpses of One Taste -- glimpses of the fact
that you are one with absolutely all manifestation, in its good and bad aspects, in all its frost
and fever, its wonder and its pain. You are the Kosmos, literally. But you tend to understand
this ultimate fact in increasing glimpses of the infinity that you are, and you realize exactly
why you started this wonderful, horrible Game of Life. But it is absolutely not a cruel Game,
not ultimately, because you, and you alone, instigated this Drama, this Lila, this Kenosis.
Pathways: But what about the notion that these experiences of One Taste or Kosmic
Consciousness are just a by-product of meditation, and therefore arent really real?
Ken Wilber: Well, that can be said of any type of knowledge that depends on an instrument.
Kosmic consciousness often depends on the instrument of meditation. So what? Seeing the
nucleus of a cell depends on a microscope. Do we then say that the cell nucleus isnt real
because its only a by-product of a microscope? Do we say the moons of Jupiter arent real
because they depend on a telescope? The people who raise this objection are almost always
people who dont want to look through the instrument of meditation, just as the Churchmen
refused to look through Galileos telescope and thus acknowledge the moons of Jupiter. Let
them live with their refusal. But let us -- to the best of our ability, and hopefully driven by the
best of charity or compassion -- try to convince them to look, just once, and see for
themselves. Not coerce them, just invite them. I suspect a different world might open for
them, a world that has been abundantly verified by all who look through the telescope, and
microscope, of meditation.
Pathways: Could you tell us....
Ken Wilber: If I could interrupt, do you mind if I give you one of my favorite quotes from
Aldous Huxley?
Pathways: Please.
Ken Wilber: This is from After Many a Summer Dies the Swan:
I like the words I use to bear some relation to facts. Thats why Im interested in eternity --
psychological eternity. Because its a fact.
For you perhaps, said Jeremy.
For anyone who chooses to fulfill the conditions under which it can be experienced.
And why should anyone wish to fulfill them?
Why should anyone choose to go to Athens to see the Parthenon? Because its worth the
bother. And the same is true of eternity. The experience of timeless good is worth all the
trouble it involved.
Timeless good, Jeremy repeated with distaste. I dont know what the words mean.
Why should you? said Mr. Propter. Youve never bought your ticket for Athens.
Pathways: So contemplation is the ticket to Athens?
Ken Wilber: Dont you think?

Followers of Ken Wilbur will find it hard to swallow...but then I must still say...
He honour too much of stage 5. Though non-duality is experienced, it is not thorough. He

sank back to a source and ding dong in between. Is there Witness without conditions? Are
there moments of manifestation without conditions where Witness is experienced? If there is,
then it is a game. If not, then know the truth of Dependent Origination. There is a stage 6.
The nature of Presence is empty.
Forum Topic: Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror (Part 2)

An Eternal Now: 03 December 2006 11:14 PM
This topic is in continuation of Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror
Just a recap on this topic,
quote:

One day, the Fifth Patriarch, Hung Jen assembled all his disciples and said,"Go and
seek for Prajna in your own mind and write me a stanza (gatha) about it. The one who
understands the reality of Buddhist nature will be the Sixth Patriarch."
The head disciple, Shin Shau composed his stanza and wrote it on the wall of the
corridor, so that the Patriarch might know what spiritual insight he had attained. The
stanza read:
Our body is the Bodhi tree,
And our mind is like a bright mirror with stand,
Diligently we wipe them all the time,
And let no dust alight.
Shen shih p'u t 'i shu
Hsin ju ming ching t'ai.
Shih shih ch'in fu shih,
Mo shih jo ch 'en ai
Later, Hui Neng who worked in the kitchen heard a young man reciting the stanza. At
once, he realized that the stanza did not reveal the reality of Buddhist nature.
As he was illiterate, he asked people to scribe his stanza, which reads:
There is no Bodhi Tree
Nor the stand of a bright mirror,
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?
P'u t 'i pen wu shu
Hsin ching i fei t'ai
Pen lai wu i wu,[s]
He ch 'u jo ch 'en ai
Eventually, Hui Neng received the robe and Dharma from Hung Jen, and became the
Sixth Patriarch of Zen Sect in China
An Eternal Now: 04 December 2006 01:01 AM
*warning: if you find this topic a bit deep then please ignore it, it may be for more advanced
readers*
I replied Neutral_Onliner,
quote:

Both of their poems are not yet there
Only after Hui Neng went into hiding did he further deepened his realisation.
But I haven't explained why. But I'm in a mood to share so today I'm going to explain. But
certain topics have already elaborated on this one way or another...
Now firstly, while it is true that the 5th Zen Patriarch did eventually passed down the lineage
of Zen to the 6th Partriarch Hui Neng, Hui Neng's 'Since all is void, where can dust alight?'
poem is NOT accepted by the 5th Zen Patriarch. Some people overlooked this, and thought
that Hui Neng's 'where can dust alight' poem is superb and 'ultimate' and is the 'winning
poem' of Zen Patriarchy. It is not.
When Hui Neng submitted his poem to the 5th Patriarch, the 5th Patriarch rubbed off the
stanza with his shoe, and proclaimed that the author of the poem hasn't realised the essence
(xing4) of the Mind (xin1) either. Although this is partly because people are overly excited
over the new poem and doesn't wish anyone to become jealous of him, the main reason is
because truly, Hui Neng at that time hasn't truly attained the Great realisation/great
enlightenment (da4 ce4 da4 wu4).
According to a talk by my Taiwanese teacher shown on VCD in my dharma center which I

noted some of what he said a few days ago... he said that if Master Hui Neng were to be
allowed to teach, he would lead all the zen practitioners into 'Pian1 Kong1' (leaning to
voidness/formlessness). The whole poem is 'leaning to void/formlessness', every verse of it is
talking about void, it is talking about the formless nature of consciousness. Therefore at that
time, Hui Neng was not suitable to teach yet. This is also very similar to what Thusness told
me over a year ago, which I will paste the conversation here later.
At the time when Hui Neng wrote his poem, he only attained the smaller realisation, he
realised 'ti3', the Ground Base/Ground Luminosity of Buddha Nature. But that is not realising
the non-dual nature of ground luminosity. Because it is non-dual, there is no separation and
no leaning towards voidness/formlessness of luminosity.
So when did he truly awaken to the true nature of consciousness beyond 'formlessness'? I also
did recall my teacher mentioning that Hui Neng only truly attained realisation after hearing
the verse 'Wu shuo zhu er sheng qi xin'. I did a search, and found out that indeed, it is only
after Hui Neng became truly enlightened (the "second time" after reading the verse in
Diamond Sutra, that he was accepted by the Fifth Patriarch.
quote:
The Sixth Patriarch's Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra
At the moment he heard those words. Hui Neng experienced the great enlightenment and
he knew that all the ten thousand dharmas are not separate from the self-nature. He
said to the Patriarch:
How unexpected! The self-nature is

originally pure in itself.
originally neither produce nor destroyed.
originally complete in itself.
originally without movement.
How unexpected! The self-nature
can produce the ten thousand dharmas.
The Fifth Patriarch knew of Hui Neng's enlightenment to his original nature and said to him,
"Studying the Dharma without recognizing the original mind is of no benefit. If one
recognizes one's own original mind and sees one's original nature, then one is called a great
hero, a teacher of gods and humans, a Buddha."
He received the Dharma in the third watch and no one knew about it. The Fifth Patriarch also
transmitted the Sudden Teaching and the robe and bowl saying, "Your are the Sixth Patriarch.
Protect yourself carefully. Take living beings across be every method and spread the teaching
for the sake of those who will live in the future. Do not let it be cut off."
Note that this is after the 5th Patriarch rubbed off Hui Neng's poem on 'Pu Ti Ben Wu Shu'.
After the first poem.
What is "dharma"? "Dharma" can mean many things, it means "Phenomena" but may also
mean "Truth", "Teachings of the Buddha". When Hui Neng said "Dharma", it means
"Phenomena". The other way of putting it is, Phenomena/Manifestation IS Source, that the
"Self" is in fact not separate from the ten thousand things. (I will post on something from Ken
Wilber later that elaborates this) And only after this second realisation can we say that Hui
Neng has attained the Great Enlightenment (da ce da wu). And then, he received his robes.
I confirmed it with Thusness, who said, "he was given the robe because the master knows he
is there not because his experience is already stabilized." He is there already, upon
clarification with Thusness, he meant that Hui Neng has realised the Non-dual nature (i.e
Thusness's 'stage 5' of 'Manifestation is Source') but his experience is not stabilised. So how?
He was asked by the 5th Patriarch to keep silent, to go into hiding. (he went into hiding for 15
years)
To be continued..
My teacher also mentioned another verse by Hui Neng which showcased that all phenomena
and even thoughts IS Reality (Shi2 Xiang4), and that if there is no 'doing' involved, no
rejecting, nor attachment, meaning no "mi2", is already "wu4". The 'keyphrase' of 'Wu2 Wei2
Fa3' is 'Wu Si Wu Nian' and 'Dang Xia'. 'Wu Si Wu Nian' means no-thought, transcend
thought. That means going beyond seeking, grasping. But the key is 'Dang1 Xia4' (the NOW,
the Moment), not 'Wu2 Si1 Wu2 Nian4'. If one is not confused/ignorant/attached (mi2), then
that is already 'awakened' (wu4). So, don't find another 'awakening' other than this, or else,
that will be like riding on a bull finding the bull (you are riding on) elsewhere. So truly there
is 'no attainment'.
Anyway here's the poem:
quote:
Hui-neng has no special aptitude:

He does not cut off any thoughts.
His mind responds to all situations.
In what way can the Bodhi tree grow?
~ Hui-neng
Last Wednesday I posted this in another forum, topic titled: Should thinking stop?
quote:
I like Eckhart's take on that, when he said he didn't need to think anymore. The important
word being "need".
Thoughts can lose their obsessive, compulsive nature.
What a relief!
We do not need to think, and neither do we need to stop our thoughts, nor do we need to not-
stop-our-thoughts... completely, utterly free. "I" walk, "I" breathe, but I do not will myself to
walk, to breathe. I do not think "I want to walk" at every step. It just happens. Thoughts too,
simply happen. Self-arise, self-liberated.
Just stop identifying with them... like we are usually not identified with walking, heart beat,
or breathing. If we stop identifying with them... naturally there will be no striving to stop the
thoughts nor will we seek their continuity. But if we caught ourselves day dreaming, then, it's
best to put a stop to it at once.
juz my 2 cents.
What I learned from ET and some Buddhist teachings is the importance of being mindful of
thoughts. Knowing when I'm thinking, when my mood is being affected by thoughts and
realizing that I play a role in that experience, at times.
Yes.. mindfulness/awareness is extremely important. Either we are caught up with them...

or we are aware.
I would like to add on to that, is that all the while all phenomena self-arises and self-liberated,
the 'Self' plays no role in it because 'Self' is in the first place, an illusion. And the point is
really when we recognise the self-arising nature, then immediately identification is cut off,
because it is self-so, and there will be no seeking of continuity nor effort to stop it. There will
be no action.
However that is from the viewpoint of 'Wu2 Wei2 Fa3' (the dharma of non-action), because
most of us are not able to reach that level due to our deep latent karmic tendencies, the
Buddha taught countless expedient means and practises and 'You3 Wei2 Fa3' that we should
practise, and can practise easier. Why? Karmic strength and tendencies are like the fuel of the
car. My teacher mentioned that it is impossible to stop the car immediately, even if you
stopped stepping the Gas the car has a certain momentum before it can stop. Therefore it is
important to gain strength, and this is made possible by the expedient ways of the numerous
dharmas that the Buddha taught.
Thusness wrote:
Going beyond the subtle influences of thought

The wise rest neither in form nor formless
Not found in this or that
In the flow of perpetual becoming
Ever is and ever One
Completely free, utterly traceless.
----
This IRC conversation took place in 4 November 2005
[00:53] <ZeN`n1th> btw 6th zen patriarch is enlightened isnt it

[00:54] <ZeN`n1th> anyway lineages are only passed down to enlightened ppl, so i presume
all the zen lineage holders are enlightened?
[00:55] <Thusness> yes
[00:55] <Thusness> not the first time.
[00:55] <Thusness> the popular poem puti ben wu shu.
[00:56] <ZeN`n1th> [00:55] <Thusness> not the first time. --> huh?
[00:57] <ZeN`n1th> not the first time on what
[00:57] <ZeN`n1th> [00:55] <Thusness> the popular poem puti ben wu shu. --> so u mean
the poem showcase hui neng's enlightenment?
[00:57] <Thusness> yes
[00:57] <ZeN`n1th> oic
[00:57] <ZeN`n1th> anyway u mean first time is what
[00:58] <Thusness> when he wrote the poem.
[00:58] <ZeN`n1th> u mean Shen-hsiu's poem?
[00:59] <Thusness> after he came out from hiding, he is entirely different.
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> The body is the bodhi tree,
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> The mind is like a clear mirror.
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> At all times we must strive to polish it,
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> And must not let the dust collect.
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> (Yampolsky 130)
[00:59] <Thusness> yes.
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Bodhi originally has no tree,
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> (Yampolsky 132)
[00:59] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <Thusness> after he came out from hiding, he is entirely
different. --> oic..
[01:00] <Thusness> anyway i m not in the position to comment on huineng.
[01:01] <Thusness> but zen books tend to overemphasize this aspect.
[01:01] <ZeN`n1th> actually i tink u got the timeline wrong
[01:01] <ZeN`n1th> it is only after hui neng wrote the poem, and the 5th patriarch was
impressed
[01:01] <ZeN`n1th> then he told hui neng to go into hiding
[01:01] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[01:01] <Thusness> u will not find much diff between the 'atman'
[01:01] <ZeN`n1th> icic..
[01:01] <Thusness> yes he told hui neng to go into hiding coz he isn't ready.
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> isn't ready for?
[01:02] <Thusness> preaching.
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> but when he wrote this poem, he is already enlightened right?
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Bodhi originally has no tree,
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean
and pure;
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[01:02] <ZeN`n1th> [00:59] <ZeN`n1th> (Yampolsky 132)
[01:02] <Thusness> i think i told utpala few yrs back that xing4 is not xin1
[01:03] <ZeN`n1th> xing = mind? xin = ? faith?
[01:03] <Thusness> xing4 as in nature, xin1 is mind
[01:03] <ZeN`n1th> nature, mind?
[01:03] <Thusness> u know ming xin jian xing
[01:03] <ZeN`n1th> yes
[01:04] <Thusness> know ur mind and see ur nature
[01:04] <Thusness> nature is emptiness
[01:04] <Thusness> i told utpala ming xin does not mean jian xing4
[01:04] <ZeN`n1th> then what is ming xin
[01:05] <Thusness> its intuitive perception of consciousness
[01:05] <Thusness> knowing what is consciousness.
[01:06] <Thusness> but not it's nature.
[01:07] <Thusness> realised its briliance, bright, lucidity, unborn aspect of consciousness
[01:07] <ZeN`n1th> icic..
[01:07] <Thusness> not th emptiness aspect
[01:07] <ZeN`n1th> hmm
[01:08] <ZeN`n1th> but when hui neng wrote this, is he already enlightened or not yet
enlightened
[01:08] <ZeN`n1th> Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
[01:08] <ZeN`n1th> Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
[01:08] <ZeN`n1th> Since all is empty from the beginning,
[01:08] <ZeN`n1th> Where can the dust alight
[01:09] <Thusness> not completely enlightened from my perspective.
[01:09] <ZeN`n1th> huh how come? i tot he already understood emptiness?
[01:10] <Thusness> which line tell u the characteristic of emptiness?
[01:11] <ZeN`n1th> i dunnu, but using the analogy of mirror as mind, he said that the mirror
is also empty.. so isnt it what u said 'jian xing'?
[01:12] <Thusness> i mean not just in words
[01:12] <Thusness> but which line tell us the meaning of emptiness
[01:13] <ZeN`n1th> i dunnu leh
[01:13] <ZeN`n1th> it just says empty lor
[01:13] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[01:13] <Thusness> lol
[01:14] <Thusness> more on the aspect that the pristine awareness does not lost its lucidity
and brightness.
[01:14] <Thusness> no dust can alight.
[01:14] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[01:14] <Thusness> even when we are in samsara, it still remain clearly bright.
[01:15] <Thusness> there is no wisdom needed because it is luminosity itself
[01:16] <Thusness> mirror bright does not require a stand
[01:16] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[01:16] <Thusness> empty here is not the essence of the nature, but refers to the formless
nature of consciousness
[01:17] <Thusness> essence of emptiness i mean
[01:17] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[01:18] <Thusness> direct perception of consciousness is important but must go hand in hand
with emptiness.
The Nondual
Q: So this casual unmanifest is that the absolute end point? Is this the end of time, the end
of evolution, the end of history? The final Omega point?
KW: Well, many traditions take this state of cessation to be the ultimate state, the final end
point of all development and evolution, yes. And this end state is equated with full
Enlightenment, ultimate release, pure nirvana.
But this is not the final story, according to the Nondual traditions. Because at some point,
as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness in
here completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed.
The causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual
mysticism. Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.
Technically, you have dis-identified with even the Witness, and then integrated it with all
manifestation in other words, the second and third phases of fulcrum-9, which leads to
fulcrum-10, which is not really a separate fulcrum or level, but the reality or Suchness of all
levels, all states, all conditions.
And this is the second and most profound meaning of Emptiness - it is not a discrete state, but
the reality of all states, the Suchness of all states. You have moved from the causal to the
Nondual.
Q: Emptiness has two meanings?
KW: Yes, which can be very confusing. On one hand, as we just saw, it is a discrete,
identifiable state of awareness namely, unmanifest absorption or cessation (nirvikalpa
Samadhi, ayn, jnana Samadhi, nirodh, classical nirvana). This is the causal state, a discrete
state.
The second meaning is that Emptiness is not merely a particular state among other
states, but rather the reality or suchness or condition of all states. Not a particular state
apart from other states, but the reality or condition of all states, high or low, sacred or
profane, ordinary or extraordinary. Recall that on figure 9-1 we had Spirit as both the
highest level (causal) and the ever-present Ground of all levels (nondual).
Q: We already discussed the discrete state; now the Nondual.
KW: Yes, the experience of this nondual Suchness is similar to the nature unity experience
we earlier discussed, except now this unity is experienced not just with gross Form out there,
but also with all of the subtle Form in here. In Buddhist terms, this is not just the
Nirmanakaya gross or nature mysticism and not just the Sambhogakaya subtle or deity
mysticism; and not just the Dharmakaya causal or formless mysticism. It is the
Svabhavikakaya the integration of all three of them. It is beyond nature mysticism, beyond
deity mysticism, and beyond formless mysticism it is the reality or the Suchness of each,
and thus integrates each in its embrace. It embraces the entire spectrum of consciousness
transcends all, includes all.
Q: Again, rather technical. Perhaps theres a more direct way to talk about Nondual
mysticism?
Kw: Across the board, the sense of being any sort of Seer or Witness or Self vanishes
altogether. You dont look at the sky, you are the sky. You can taste the sky. Its not out
there. As Zen would say, you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, you can swallow
the Kosmos whole precisely because awareness is no longer split into a seeing subject in
here and a seen object out there. There is just pure seeing. Consciousness and its display are
not-two.
Everything continues to arise moment to moment the entire Kosmos continues to arise
moment to moment but there is nobody watching the display, there is just the display, a
spontaneous and luminous gesture of great perfection. The pure Emptiness of the Witness
turns out to be one with every Form that is witnessed, and that is one of the basic
meanings of nonduality.
Q: Again, could you be even more specific?
Kw: Well, you might begin by getting into the state of Witness that is, you simply rest in
pure observing awareness you are not any object that can be seen not nature, not body,
not thoughts just rest in that pure witnessing awareness. And you can get a certain
sensation of that witnessing awareness a sensation of freedom, of release, of great
expanse.
While you are resting in that state, and sensing this Witness as a great expanse, if you
then look at, say, a mountain, you might begin to notice that the sensation of the
Witness and the sensation of the mountain are the same sensation. When you feel
your pure Self and you feel the mountain, they are absolutely the same feeling.
In other words, the real world is not given to you twice one out there, one in here. That
twiceness is exactly the meaning of duality. Rather, the real world is given to you once,
immediately it is one feeling, it has one taste, it is utterly full in that one taste, it is not
severed into seer and seen, subject and object, fragment and fragment. It is a singular, of
which the plural is unknown. You can taste the mountain; it is the same taste as your Self; it
is not out there being reflected in here that duality is not present in the immediateness of
real experience. Real experience, before you slice it up, does not contain that duality- real
experience, reality itself, is nondual. You are still you, and the mountain is still the
mountain, but you and the mountain are two sides of one and the same experience, which is
the one and only reality at that moment.
If you relax into present experience in that fashion, the separate-self sense will uncoil; you
will stop standing back from life; you will not have experience, you will suddenly become all
experience; you will not be in here looking out there in here and out there are one, so
you are no longer trapped in here.
And so suddenly, you are not in the bodymind. Suddenly, the bodymind has dropped.
Suddenly, the wind doesnt blow on you, it blows through you, within you. You are not
looking at the mountain, you are the mountain the mountain is closer to you than your own
skin. You are that, and there is no you just this entire luminous display spontaneously
arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found.
The entire sensation of weight drops altogether, because you are not in the Kosmos, the
Kosmos is in you, and you are purest Emptiness. The entire universe is a transparent
shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just
all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else.
~ Ken Wilber
When my teacher was asked in regards to the contradiction of form and emptiness, he replied
that Dharma is completely 'rounded', it has no contradiction, it has no dualistic opposites.
There is mutual integration. Empty is not just emptiness, In emptiness is form, in form is
emptiness. I couldn't catch what he said exactly.. he explained quite indepth but is somewhere
around there.
----
"Finally, arahats understand that emptiness is form. Nirvana is found in samsara, in the
midst of the phenomenal world, as well as in the attainment of Fruition beyond the
phenomenal world. This is what is meant by removing the last veil of unknowing. They
understand that it is form that is empty, that some illusory sense of a split off peacefulness or
island of imperturbability was never true or realistic refuge. All of these phenomena are
already empty and always have been. This is the great cosmic punch line: all of this
transience turns out to have been it all along. Not only was form empty, but emptiness was
actually form. The split is gone."
- Dharma Dan
(source: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version, see 'THE HEART
SUTRA MODEL' chapter which speaks of the 4 stages towards Arhatship in terms of Heart
Sutra)
-----
By the way just FYI, Dharma Dan is a highly enlightened teacher, he is an Arhat. I just
started reading his book recently. I feel very sad that there are some people who are
suspicious of him and even passed bad remarks on him because of his announcement of his
attainments. Anyway he is endorsed to teach by his Buddhist teachers.
Here is what he said:
quote:
While I call myself Dharma Dan on this page, I usually go by the name Daniel Ingram.
I am an arahat with mastery of the formed jhanas, formless realms, Nirodha Samapatti, and a
few other traditional attainments.
I am one of the few teachers I know of that will talk about high-level practice directly and
unambiguously without relying on dogma, making things taboo or coating simple truths in
mystery. I assume that most practitioners are mature enough to handle straight-forward and
honest answers. My fundamental assumption is that many more people will be empowered to
realize that they can master these things if they are out in the open.
Thusness and I were discussing about his works and yes, he did confirm that Dharma Dan is
writing from his true experiences and indeed has very deep insights.
Hi all,
Just some clarifications about Dharma Dan...
I came to know about Dharma Dan only few days from AEN. I do not know much about him.
I have no comments about him declaring himself as an arahat. I read a little about the
exchanges between him and other forumers in E-Sanga, pretty sad as what AEN mentioned
but what I want to remark is his deep intuitive insight. Like what he said, there are just too
many myths surrounding what an Arahat should and shouldn't be like. As to whether has he
attained arahatship, what i think is, unless we already have achieved certain level of insight
into our true nature, lets not create unnecessary karma by discrediting his achievement. I
believe he clearly knows where is he heading.
I truly appreciate his effort on the e-book he wrote. It is free and is a valuable asset to insight
meditators about the nature of reality and non-duality. He wrote it out of his own authentic
experience. I just printed out the entire e-book, it is of a great help to me but read with ur own
discernment.
Forum Topic: ~*BWB Metta Lounge*~

Here are some meditation advises which I found useful, by Dharma Dan:
quote:
If you can perceive one sensation per second, try for two. If you can perceive two unique
sensations per second, try to perceive four. Keep increasing your perceptual threshold in this
way until the illusion of continuity that binds you on the wheel of suffering shatters. In short,
when doing insight practices, constantly work to perceive sensations arise and pass as quickly
and accurately as you possibly can. With the spirit of a racecar driver who is constantly aware
of how fast the car can go and still stay on the track, you are strongly advised to stay on the
cutting edge of your ability to see the impermanence of sensations quickly and accurately.
------------
These meditation objects and postures are not that important, but understanding
impermanence directly is.
--------------
I sometimes meditate when reclining before sleep, when reclining in the morning
before I have to get up, when I wake up in the middle of the night, before catnaps on the
couch, during boring lectures and meetings, and in the lounge of the school I attend before
afternoon classes. I have come to the conclusion that five minutes of really engaged, clear
and focused practice in poor circumstances can often produce more benefits for me than an
hour of poor, vague and distracted practice in optimal conditions.
Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version, by Arhat, Dharma Dan
Thusness: 05 December 2006: 07:39 AM
quote:

Here are some meditation advises which I found useful, by Dharma Dan:
If you can perceive one sensation per second, try for two. If you can perceive two unique
sensations per second, try to perceive four. Keep increasing your perceptual threshold
in this way until the illusion of continuity that binds you on the wheel of suffering
shatters.
When we have an initial taste of our luminous nature, we will want to zoom into the minutest
detail of the moment.
Next, 'sensation' is just a word. Do realise that when it is experienced in bare, it is free from
all definitions and its imprint and it conveys the luminous-empty naure. The moment subsides
instantly as it arises and apart from this, there is no-self to be found anywhere.
quote:
In short, when doing insight practices, constantly work to perceive sensations arise and
pass as quickly and accurately as you possibly can. With the spirit of a racecar driver
who is constantly aware of how fast the car can go and still stay on the track, you are
strongly advised to stay on the cutting edge of your ability to see the impermanence of
sensations quickly and accurately.
When the gap is gone, there is no image. That is experiencing impermanence without images,
without a layer of symbols. Just impermance alone and nothing else. It is like the first phase
of experiencing "I AM", just "I AM" and nothing else. Here, it is just impermanence, clearly
and acurately. Nothing else.
Forum Topic: Non-dual and karmic patterns

Dear friends,
I will like to share my current experience... and hopefully the more experienced forumers
(like Thusness and others) can comment.
I have more time in non-dual state now. That is, there is no-self in the experiencing of things
aka no subject-object split. What i have noticed is that much of the karmic patterns and habits
still arises...but this time they arises without the agent of a self.
The karmic patterns that were diminished are mainly those pertaining to the 'sense of a self'.
Apart from these, many habits are still largely intact. However, the awareness of this habits is
clearer... but without the 'willing/forceful intention' of the false sense of self.
There is an apparent paradox here. Most of us uses the 'false sense of self' to will ourselve
from doing certain things. Without the sense of self, the habits are still there and experienced.
I think absolute trust must be given that the habits dissolves away in due time through non-
willing.
So my conclusion is that non-duality alone does not equal no karmic patterns. There must be
successive stages forward that handles the remaining karmic patterns.
This is my understanding only. Please read with discernment. Thanks and regards.
Also, i have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and they give different
degrees of vividness and sense of oneness. At times, sense of being at a location is greatly
diminished... what is being felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth,
'here-ness' is made up of perceptions and sensation... Like the sensations of pressure of the
feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and
hearing and so on so forth are just that.
quote:
So my conclusion is that non-duality alone does not equal no karmic patterns. There
must be successive stages forward that handles the remaining karmic patterns.
I think so. This has to do with clearing fetters and as you might know there are 10 fetters to
clear before Arhat. Each of the 4 stages towards sainthood (stream enterer, once returner, non
returner, arhat) is related to clearing certain fetters. It has been elaborated in Dharma Dan's
book as well, and more info can be found in the net
I see...
Thanks
I have read Dharma Dan's book... it is good and helpful. He really knows the stuff well...
including those normally not stated (literally) within Buddhism eg the Dark nights.
quote:

[[quote]
I will like to share my current experience... I have more time in non-dual state now.
That is, there is no-self in the experiencing of things aka no subject-object split.
Also, i have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and they give different
degrees of vividness and sense of oneness. At times, sense of being at a location is greatly
diminished... what is being felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth,
'here-ness' is made up of perceptions and sensation... Like the sensations of pressure of the
feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and
hearing and so on so forth are just that.
Yes LongChen, very very well said. What you described is very true about the experience of
non-duality and no-self is really referring to the illusionary view of a subject-object split. In
actual case, there is no such split and like what you said, there are varying depths and degrees
to this experience of non-duality. It will be good to find out more about the 7 factors of
enlightenments and five wisdoms in Buddhism.
Sensation is just a word. However when we named it as sensation, there are whole lots of
imprints and definitions that come along with it and that makes seeing it in raw difficult. So
what is sensation in its raw state? It is what we called Presence, our Pristine Awareness.
And yes they are all just THAT, that sensation in raw and the purpose of why Buddha
taught mindfulness will become clear; it is to experience all is just that, the One Reality.
This has to be experienced intuitively and directly. There is no other way.
Next, we must experience more clearly about its emptiness nature. Awareness is a luminous
presence with emptiness as its nature. Its nature is empty in the sense that there is no way you
can point to a who, or a place or a moment in time and say here it is. It subsides as it arises
and never remains. It is symbol-less and therefore we should not rest ourselves in either form
or formless. It is neither this nor that and not even an IT. Simply empty of a self! A
Source that cannot be pinned down is purely an ever manifestation of phenomena that rolls
on. Its arising and ceasing is best described in the following:

(Dependent Origination DO)
Do not even ask where it comes from and where it goes. To ask is to satisfy our cognitive
thirst. In actual case it is no where to be found, only mere arising and ceasing in raw. The
profundity of DO has no depth, zoom deeply into it. Sense the entirety of the moment, the
manifolds of Presence, the vividness, texture and fabric of the raw, experience earnestly the
luminous and emptiness truth of our nature.
The experience of this is the awakening of the mirror-like wisdom. This is important because
it is the base that prevents us from falling into lower realm. But contrary to what that is being
commonly explained as a clear mirror reflecting the phenomenon which is again dualistic (by
now u will not be able to accept such view ), it is a wisdom that transformed totally the
wrong view of phenomena as out there or in here to all as the manifestation of our pristine
awareness due its emptiness nature. It is the experience of Dharmakaya.
quote:
What i have noticed is that much of the karmic patterns and habits still arises...but this time
they arises without the agent of a selfThe karmic patterns that were diminished are mainly
those pertaining to the 'sense of a self'. Apart from these, many habits are still largely intact.
However, the awareness of this habits is clearer... but without the 'willing/forceful intention'
of the false sense of self...
There is an apparent paradox here. Most of us uses the 'false sense of self' to will ourselve
from doing certain things. Without the sense of self, the habits are still there and experienced.
I think absolute trust must be given that the habits dissolves away in due time through non-
willing.
It is a matter of how deep the experience of non-dual has penetrated into our consciousness.
At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the
conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the Self consciousness does not
surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions
are still there. The afflicted consciousness is the habitual propensities of self that is deeply
rooted and works at the pre-conscious level. The experience of non-duality will not be able to
overcome and eliminate these stronger afflictions until we have habituated ourselves to this
understanding at the deeper level of our consciousness.
At this juncture, a practitioner will experience the first 4 factors of enlightenment quite
clearly, that is, there will be mindfulness, investigative, joy and rapture but tranquility,
concentration and equanimity isnt strong yet. The first 4 factors will result a sense of
radiance bright, lightness, free, clear, vivid and energetic feeling but the settledness,
sereneness and calmness will not be that obviously felt. It is here where one will experience
the dark night of what Dharma Dan described. Contrary to what that is being thought, one
may even feel more lustful due to the new found energy. But somehow the non-dual
experience also has the strength to pull us back from falling further (you may experienced it
in some synchronic events that serve as reminders) and eventually lead us to the experience
of equanimity. You may want to find out why?
Lastly heeHaving said that much, it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is
really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of
gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but
clouded by this sense of self that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The
entire sense of self is a doing. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing.
Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving
and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this
self or Self, there is no doing, there is only spontaneous arising.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks so much for the detailed explanations. I am getting a better understanding after read
them.
Really appreciate it.
regards
Forum Topic: why do people believe in past lives?

quote:
Very true...indeed.
January... even if you do not believe in past life... it is fine.
Buddhism, is in fact, very very advanced psychology. It is so advanced that current

scientist and researcher have not even scratched what Buddha has found.
If you do not believe in all the mystical stuff... Buddhism can still be seem from a very
practical psychological approach.
Haha...the intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply the
profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.
The joy and bliss of total transparency will make us drop from our chairs (it can take few
years)...
Happy Journey.
quote:
Haha...the intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply the
profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.
Yah... I really appreciate Buddha's depth...
I must thank you too... otherwise I may still be stuck at 'I AM' stage now.
regards.
quote:
Yah... I really appreciate Buddha's depth...
I must thank you too... otherwise I may still be stuck at 'I AM' stage now.
regards.
Yes, the thinking mind will mistake the Eternal Witness as the ultimate. If without the
correct insight and understanding of our emptiness nature, somehow the thinking mind is able
to sway the experience into thinking No-Self as the absence of personality and ego. It is
this personality or Ego, the totality of all our cultural makeup, that does not exist; but that
Reality behind all forms, thinking, mental formations and feelings is very real; it is the
ultimate background of all existence. This is false and in Buddhism, this is the big Self that
should be eliminated through the experience of non-duality (anatta). Our pristine nature is not
what the linear mode of reasoning can understanding. However seeing in raw does not
necessary lead to the experience of true non-duality; the experience of AMness is also a
very crucial condition. Together with the realization of 'the sense of self is not the doer of
action.' , then the conditions are ready. They are all part of the progress.
The dark nights described by Dharma Dan are very real for many reasons but then it still
depends on ones conditions. I experienced most of the problems. It took me more than 9
months to overcome them. This self-claim Arahat is truly experience, he has all my respects!
All is still due to the propensities of the Self, they are working at a very subtle level. It is
not detectable at the conscious level and it is for this that I must commend you for not being
misled by the non-dual experience. You are mindful that the karmic patterns still hover
around. This is very important. Deeper insight must come from understanding how
consciousness works. It is not at the conscious level alone. So deep are these propensities
then even with the non-dual experience that is so clear and vivid, the propensities still persist
and manifest from moment to moment. They do not go even after death. It is these patterns
that we must be aware. Once rooted, they cannot be easily overcome. The antidote is to
habituate the non-dual insight deep down into our consciousness. Do not push yourself too
hard but make more regular meditations. It is not easy to submerge entirely into the
luminous-bliss of arising and dissolving from moment to moment in day to day working life.
Though you cant completely fuse the experience into daily working life, you will still be
authenticated.
Saw some of your posts in other forums. Not many will understand your experience even in
the mystic circle, just let it be. Happy Journey.
Forum Topic: Why meditate?
JonLS: 23 December 2006 01:11 AM
Hi AnEternalNow and Thusness,
Are you guys not doing these people a disservice by encouraging the search?
When you encourage the search you are encouraging them to identify with their story.
Rather, tell them to stop, no more searching, no more meditating.
Give them nothing to hold onto.
But they could read this:
quote:
What are Self-Realization, Awakening, Liberation, and Enlightenment?
You are the One Self, Awareness Itself.
Stop for a moment right now, and notice this presence of awareness that you arehere and
now. Notice that you are spacious, open, awake and free. Notice that these words are arising
in this spacious openness that you are. Notice that all of the activities of the mind, the seeking
and suffering, the resistance and attachments, the stories and dramas all play out in youthis
spacious, open presence of awareness.
This peaceful, loving, spacious openness is what you are. This spacious openness is the Self,
the Liberation, the Awakening, the Enlightenment, the Peace and the Love for which youve
been seeking. You have always been, and always will be simply THIS.
It's apparent that you already are this witnessing presence; you are the Self. You know this
from your own direct experience. Everywhere you go; there you are as this witnessing
presence. Right now you are this freedom, this liberation, this awakening, this enlightenment.
There is nothing mystical about your presence as awarenessyou just are. Notice it
now.
There can be a tendency to spiritualize or mystify this simple presence of awareness that
is always here and now, especially after having what could be called life-changing
experiences, realizations and epiphanies. You are always this simple witnessing presence.
Sometimes you witness what seem to be mystical experiences, and other times the mundane,
but you are always this simple witnessing presencepeaceful and free.
All there is, is Thistheres nothing else.
There's nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become.
This is all there is.

All there ever was is This.
All there ever will be is This.
There is nothing elsejust This.
Nothing mystical. Nothing mundane.
Just This.
And You are This.
My interest in communicating this message is to de-mystify the concepts of Awakening,

Liberation, Self-Realization, and Enlightenment. And to share the fact that it's possible to be
free of psychological suffering, and free of spiritual seeking.
My approach is to share my direct experience, and to speak from the heart about what I have
found to be true. And Im finding that those who stop for a moment, consider the suggestions
offered, and apply them to their own direct experience are finding themselves free of
psychological suffering and spiritual seeking.
You may notice that the message being shared here is shockingly simple. And possibly for
that reason, those who have keenly developed intellects tend to overlook the obvious, and
continue exercising their intellect with never-ending questions, doubts, and Yes, buts! So
the appearance of suffering and seeking goes on.
If you stop for a few moments and look to your own direct experience for the answers, you
may be surprised how quickly and easily psychological suffering and spiritual seeking come
to an end. If your interest is in being free of psychological suffering and free of the
outrageous myths of enlightenment, then look to your own direct experience for answers to
the fundamental questions posed here. It is this simple.
Being free of psychological suffering and spiritual seeking does not require years of spiritual
practice, meditation, faith, trust, understanding of complex religious philosophies, or a keenly
developed intellect. Psychological suffering and your spiritual search come to an end by
seeing in your own direct experience that what you are in essence is simply awareness, and
that nothing can trouble you but imagination.
http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/
If you're tired of looking and want to stop, read "Clarity" by Nathan Gill.
http://www.nathangill.com/
Thanks for sharing.. but I believe meditation does has its good purpose.
I posted this in Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror (Part 2)
..However that is from the viewpoint of 'Wu2 Wei2 Fa3' (the dharma of non-action), because
most of us are not able to reach that level due to our deep latent karmic tendencies, the
Buddha taught countless expedient means and practises and 'You3 Wei2 Fa3' that we should
practise, and can practise easier. Why? Karmic strength and tendencies are like the fuel of
the car. My teacher mentioned that it is impossible to stop the car immediately, even if you
stopped stepping the Gas the car has a certain momentum before it can stop. Therefore it is
important to gain strength, and this is made possible by the expedient ways of the numerous
dharmas that the Buddha taught...
-----------------------
I agree that from the ultimate 'view' there is no need to search for anything because our true
nature is already complete and always is so.. we neither gain more Buddha Nature when we
awaken, neither do we lose any Buddha Nature while in ignorance. And the moment we try to
seek something, we are deluded. However I also think we cannot underestimate the karmic
propensities of sentient beings.
Secondly, tranquil calmness, stilling the body is important. It serves as strength for later
development and breaking karmic propensities. My local dharma teacher did not practise
meditation after her 'self-realisation' about 20 years ago, she would rather as what you are
pointing out maintain 'choiceless awareness' in daily living until about recently 5 years ago
my taiwanese teacher (in charge of transmitting important dharmas under my master's
organisation) asked her to start meditating to develope deeper levels of samadhi. Because
even after a true experience/realisation, one still needs to gather strength. And also I recall
my taiwanese teacher said something like we may think that during daily life we are in
samadhi, but we can miss the subtlety and is not the deep samadhi that is attained through
serious meditation practise.
I heard that my taiwanese teacher meditates up to 6 hours a day (i believe he splits into a few
sessions, and is partly because he has more time to himself now that he has moved out of his
house to live in his dharma center). My dharma teacher more recently also gave advise to all
who received/heard the dharma from my taiwanese teacher to practise meditation regularly,
perhaps 30 minutes everyday.
Thusness said a few months ago:
quote:
(6:58 PM) Me:

is stilling our mind considered shamatha?:
(6:59 PM) Thusness: not exactly but it can be by any practices as long as it lead us to the
experience of this calmness
(6:59 PM) Thusness: mindfulness of breath
(6:59 PM) Thusness: or mindfulness itself or chanting
(6:59 PM) Thusness: one must experience this calmness first.
(6:59 PM) Me:
oic..
(6:59 PM) Thusness: because it is the 'ground' that strengthen other experience
(6:59 PM) Me:
icic
(7:00 PM) Thusness: however some ppl are vested with the conditions to experience the end-
result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience.
(7:00 PM) Me:
oic..
(7:00 PM) Thusness: like experiencing our buddha nature directly.
(7:00 PM) Me:
icic
(7:01 PM) Thusness: then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understand of this
experience.
Hi JonLS,
Merry X'Mas!
quote:
.
. (stories)
.
All there is, is Thistheres nothing else! (Period.)
The rest are stories.
There's nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become.
This is all there is.
All there ever was is This.
All there ever will be is This.
There is nothing elsejust This.
Nothing mystical. Nothing mundane.
Just This.
And You are This. (Biger stories.)

.
. (stories)
.
Right into the deepest depth of beingness,
Beyond concious and and pre-conscious layer,
Deeper than the depth of karmic momentum.
No words and no justifications.
Completely Free , nothing undone!
quote:

Hi AnEternalNow and Thusness,
Are you guys not doing these people a disservice by encouraging the search?
When you encourage the search you are encouraging them to identify with their story.
Rather, tell them to stop, no more searching, no more meditating.
Give them nothing to hold onto.
But they could read this:
If you're tired of looking and want to stop, read "Clarity" by Nathan Gill.
http://www.nathangill.com/
There is also another topic in the forum that I would like to relate here... Non-dual and karmic
patterns created by longchen.
Exerpt:
quote:

It is a matter of how deep the experience of non-dual has penetrated into our
consciousness. At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to
experience it at the conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the Self
consciousness does not surface that frequently and there are gaps in between
experiences but the stronger afflictions are still there. The afflicted consciousness is the
habitual propensities of self that is deeply rooted and works at the pre-conscious level.
The experience of non-duality will not be able to overcome and eliminate these stronger
afflictions until we have habituated ourselves to this understanding at the deeper level
of our consciousness.
At this juncture, a practitioner will experience the first 4 factors of enlightenment quite
clearly, that is, there will be mindfulness, investigative, joy and rapture but tranquility,
concentration and equanimity isnt strong yet. The first 4 factors will result a sense of
radiance bright, lightness, free, clear, vivid and energetic feeling but the settledness,
sereneness and calmness will not be that obviously felt. It is here where one will
experience the dark night of what Dharma Dan described. Contrary to what that is
being thought, one may even feel more lustful due to the new found energy. But
somehow the non-dual experience also has the strength to pull us back from falling
further (you may experienced it in some synchronic events that serve as reminders) and
eventually lead us to the experience of equanimity. You may want to find out why?
Lastly heeHaving said that much, it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which
is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process
of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated
but clouded by this sense of self that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever
attached. The entire sense of self is a doing. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is
still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already
continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be
self-liberating. Without this self or Self, there is no doing, there is only spontaneous
arising.
From what I learnt from Thusness... Non-duality needs to be experienced not only in the
conscious level but also the pre conscious level... then conscious and pre-conscious can fuse
into one. Remember what I mentioned what Thusness said before about Tony Parsons?
Although non-duality is experienced, he overlooked karmic conditions. When no-self is
experienced, one naturally just liberates and let go. The mental activities of holding and
grasping of a 'self' seemed to subside automatically, but this is far from truth.
At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the
surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions
are still there. This level is depicted in the 3 diagrams that I have drawn in Longchen's topic,
the second one with a dotted circle, after the cracked mirror.
One must soon come to realisation of the deeper layer of consciousness, the more subtle
aspects that continue to manifest when conditions are there. Once we are sincere and not fall
into the trapped of no-self (not attached to it) and go further, we will soon realise the latent
tendencies and the strength of it. A practitioner who knows how consciousness works knows
the difficulties of uprooting these afflictions from the deeper layer and is always careful of
what is being planted.
What is described in Nathan Gill's story is similar to the 'dark nights'. Fortunately longchen
understands true non-duality and karmic propensities.. and so his case will not be so serious.
quote:
...At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the
surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger
afflictions are still there. This level is depicted in the 3 diagrams that I have drawn in
Longchen's topic, the second one with a dotted circle, after the cracked mirror.
One must soon come to realisation of the deeper layer of consciousness, the more subtle
aspects that continue to manifest when conditions are there. Once we are sincere and
not fall into the trapped of no-self (not attached to it) and go further, we will soon
realise the latent tendencies and the strength of it. A practitioner who knows how
consciousness works knows the difficulties of uprooting these afflictions from the deeper
layer and is always careful of what is being planted.
What is described in Nathan Gill's story is similar to the 'dark nights'...
Yes understanding of pre-conscious momentum is as important as the intuitive experience of

no-self. To have a complete picture, this must be understood.
Hi JonLS,
Even letting go, surrendering or let be are all stories. In actual case this cannot be done as the
'I' never existed. Like mindfulness, they too are skillful means.
Ultimately there is only the complete awaking in the deepest sense that all is the One Reality
spontaneously and ceaselessly manifesting. Liberation is this spontaneity and natural
happening. Nothing needs be done. All else are skillful means.
JonLS: 24 December 2006 03:52 PM
Here a two quotes from Nisargadatta Maharaj that describe my true nature very well:
quote:
It is solid, steady, changeless, beginningless and endless, ever new, ever fresh.
quote:
To me nothing ever happens. There is something changeless, motionless, immovable, rock-

like, unassailable; a solid mass of pure being-consciousness-bliss. I am never out of it.
Nothing can take me out of it, no torture, no calamity
quote:

It is solid, steady, changeless, beginningless and endless, ever new, ever fresh.
It is solid, steady, pervading, beginningless, endless, ever new, ever fresh...
Changeless kills all the above. The flow and renewing is perpetual and ceaseless. Assigning
an extra 'changeless' simply sounds good to the mind that reacts to "momentum" and only in
dualistic perception a changeless entity is needed to link the chain of ever becoming. Just the
obviousness that never remains and clarity will be most vivid.
Edit: Forgot to wish u Merry Christmas!

Hi JonLS,
Of all ways, the direct way is toughest. Sound simplest but is the most difficult path to walk
as it is pathless. When one not only 'sees' the non-duality aspect of awareness but also the
'momentum' aspect, the workings of consciousness will become clearer. Skillful means are
devised to suit ppl with differing conditions and all skillful means is to generate enough
conditions to lead one to the ultimate understanding of our pristine nature. Effort can still lead
to the understanding effortless.
Hi Thusness,
quote:
Hi JonLS,
Of all ways, the direct way is toughest. Sound simplest but is the most difficult path to walk
as it is pathless.
Eckhart has said that the new consciousness is emerging directly now.
I would have to agree with him since this seems to be what is happening.
It is difficult as long as you consider yourself to be the ego, when this is seen through, then it
is smoother sailing.
It requires constant surrender and tremendous desire for truth.
Happy holidays!!!
quote:

Hi Thusness,
Eckhart has said that the new consciousness is emerging directly now.
I would have to agree with him since this seems to be what is happening.
[b]It is difficult as long as you consider yourself to be the ego, when this is seen through,
then it is smoother sailing.
It requires constant surrender and tremendous desire for truth.
Happy holidays!!! [/b]
Yes JonLS, very well said! It is the path for those that have seen the non-dualistic aspect of
reality -- the condition for smooth sailing. Before that, for those that attempt to take this
path, it is hell lots of confusions.
quote:

Rather, the fact that your utmost desire is to know the truth of your being is simply a sign that
awareness is ready to awaken to itself.
But of course this is all appearance, because nothing really awakens.
Enlightenment simply is.
It is a misinterpretation of "an expression" into "desire to do something" when 'I' is there.

quote:
Yes JonLS, very well said! It is the path for those that have seen the non-dualistic aspect
of reality -- the condition for smooth sailing. Before that, for those that attempt to
take this path, it is hell lots of confusions.
Yes, so there is confusion within the present moment.
And there is sense of self that identifies with this confusion.
Does this, in any way, take away from the perfection of the present moment???
Are you really the confusion?
Are you really the sense of self that is identifying with it?
Or are you beyond both of these???
As Eckhart Tolle would say, the confusion and the sense of self are the "content" of the
present moment.
You are not the content.
You are the present moment.
You are the space in which it all happens.

quote:

Yes, so there is confusion within the present moment.
And there is sense of self that identifies with this confusion.
Does this, in any way, take away from the perfection of the present moment???
Are you really the confusion?
Are you really the sense of self that is identifying with it?
Or are you beyond both of these???
No JonLS,
There is no 'Self' that is identified with the 'confusion' at the present moment.
The 'Self' is the entire whole of identification. The process of identification to particularize is
the confusion itself. There is no beyond, there is only 'insight' that clears the illusion and all
merely 'what is'.
quote:
As Eckhart Tolle would say, the confusion and the sense of self are the "content" of the
present moment.
You are not the content.
You are the present moment.
You are the space in which it all happens.[/b]
The 'space' is another story. This Space is the problem of all problems. The subtest stories
told. The cognitive thrist creates that 'Space'. Things taking place requires no background,
without it nothing is taking place. There is only One, not two. Nothing within or without, just
it! In direct path there is no compromise. There is no room for a 'space'.
quote:
The 'space' is another story. This Space is the problem of all problems. The subtest
stories told. The cognitive thrist creates that 'Space'. Things taking place requires no
background, without it nothing is taking place. There is only One, not two. Nothing
within or without, just it! In direct path there is no compromise. There is no room for a
'space'.
Yah... space is another illusion. It is the conventional mind that cognate the 'space'.
quote:
Yah... space is another illusion. It is the conventional mind that cognate the 'space'.
Yes...dissolving, dissolving and still dissolving...
Hi Thusness,
quote:
The 'space' is another story. This Space is the problem of all problems. The subtest stories
told. The cognitive thrist creates that 'Space'. Things taking place requires no background,
without it nothing is taking place. There is only One, not two. Nothing within or without, just
it! In direct path there is no compromise. There is no room for a 'space'.
Very well said.
I totally agree.
Thank you.
Hi Thusness,
quote:
No JonLS,
There is no 'Self' that is identified with the 'confusion' at the present moment.
The 'Self' is the entire whole of identification. The process of identification to particularize
is the confusion itself. There is no beyond, there is only 'insight' that clears the illusion and all
merely 'what is'.
Yes, very well said.
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
An Eternal Now: 15 January 2007 12:38 AM
quote:
Yes understanding of pre-conscious momentum is as important as the intuitive

experience of no-self. To have a complete picture, this must be understood.
Nathan Gill just uploaded 2 new articles to his website:
quote:
http://www.nathangill.com/pages/readingroom/going-beyond.html
Going beyond.
So there's an awareness of this room right now, but what about the unmanifest level?
What unmanifest level? Isn't what's appearing enough?
The appearance is merely a pointer to what is beyond Consciousness.
Why do you want to go beyond?
Because that's where all the action is, for creating this manifestation.
This manifestation isn't created - it spontaneously appears.
But ultimately there's nothing more important than what is beyond Consciousness.
When there's exclusive identification with the content of awareness, with the story of 'me' as
an imagined entity, there's a tendency for the awareness aspect of Consciousness to be
objectified as 'the beyond', a state or realm which once attained will offer oneness, lasting
peace.
But in actuality there is no beyond, nothing to be attained 'ultimately'. There's simply this as it
is: simple presence. This is already that 'realm'. Consciousness (awareness and the presently
appearing content of awareness) is already one or whole, and when the story of 'me' - of
identification - is seen as just a play, a movie, then all pursuit of oneness, all pursuit of the
beyond or whatever, quite naturally becomes obsolete.
Sounds good...
quote:
The cosmic entertainment.
Are you saying that thought doesn't make a difference, that nothing makes a difference in the
sense of cause and effect? Everything just arises?
Everything just arises, including the idea of cause and effect.
But doesn't that idea itself make a difference? Doesn't the idea create an effect at a local
level?
Only apparently so, as part of the play or movie of life. In actuality there's no cause and
effect. Everything - all of this imagery - arises entirely spontaneously, immediately. Within
the movie of life, there is the impression of cause and effect, but in actuality there is no
separation, so nothing that can act upon anything else.
So it all just happens to arise and it just looks as though there's relationship?
Yes, the imagery that arises merely suggests separation.
And so somebody who identifies with an 'I' or with a body -
Well, it's not that there's 'someone' who identifies - rather it's more accurately described by
saying 'Where identification arises '.
OK, so where identification arises, that is something that nothing can be done about?
Precisely so. If anything changes it does so entirely spontaneously - because there's no one
here who can effect any change. Cause and effect, action and reaction, are appearance only,
the imagery of the movie of life, the cosmic entertainment.
Is this similar to what you said about mistaking karmic bondage with spontaneous arising?
Thusness: 15 January 2007 08:49 AM
quote:
Is this similar to what you said about mistaking karmic bondage with spontaneous
arising?
All these 2 articles are very well written. He wrote with powerful experience of non-dual
Presence. He does not mistake anything as there really is no separation. Just that discernment
should not be misunderstood as identification. To discern is not to separate anything.
What is lacking is the 'nature' of spontaneous arising, it is still not understood as 'emptiness
nature' is still not experienced. He will be able to rest in the bliss of Presence as he has
already seen manifestion is really the source; but he will not be able to penetrate the workings
of phenomena like past lives and karma. I would not have said there is a stage 6 if non-dual is
the end.
Forum Topic: Energetic question

Tony Parsons has mentioned that preceding or during enlightenment there is an apparent
release of energy outward.
The contraction that is the separate sense of self is the cause of this.
I have experienced and am still experiencing this phenomenon.
Have you experienced this, what is it like for you?
What does Buddhist teaching say about this?

quote:

Tony Parsons has mentioned that preceding or during enlightenment there is an apparent
release of energy outward.
I have experienced and am still experiencing this phenomenon.
Have you experienced this, what is it like for you?
What does Buddhist teaching say about this?
Yes JonLS and the intensity differ. For a non-dual experiencer, u must also feel light and
radiance bright with ever renewing joy. If the 'sensation' is felt in its raw state with the
practice of mindfulness, it can be very strong as if beaming out from no where to everywhere.
They are the 7 factors of enlightenment. For now only the first 4 factors will be quite vivid.
Do read about it.
You may want to read about non-dual and karmic patterns by longchen.
http://buddhisim.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=225462
quote:
The contraction that is the separate sense of self is the cause of this.
Indirectly. It is due more to the breaking lose of the an illusionary bond of 'self' at the pre-
coscious level. There are few other such bonds that are equally strong.
Yesterday, I had the brightest non-dual experience ever.
As the mental activities continues to dissolves away and i was staring into the blank space in
front... The most penetrating brightness occurs... It was so bright that 'me' gets stunned back
to 'self'.
I never thought that Reality is so incredibly Bright! It is truly stunning!

quote:

Yesterday, I had the brightest non-dual experience ever.
As the mental activities continues to dissolves away and i was staring into the blank
space in front... The most penetrating brightness occurs... It was so bright that 'me' gets
stunned back to 'self'.
I never thought that Reality is so incredibly Bright! It is truly stunning!
It needs fearlessness to face it. The propensity is still there. The second door is important.
Good luck.
Isis: 01 January 2007 04:05 AM
mm im wondering if loving-kindness will lead to state of bright state ?

quote:
It needs fearlessness to face it. The propensity is still there. The second door is
important. Good luck.
Yah... fearlessness is what i need.
Thanks Thusness.
quote:
Yah... fearlessness is what i need.
Thanks Thusness.
Coz i faced it too....
quote:

mm im wondering if loving-kindness will lead to state of bright state ?
Hi Isis,
The Bright is the result of progressive non-duality. Or rather, brightness is the original state.
The way (that i know) that will lead towards it is through realisations. ... of which the major
turning point realisation is:
"The sense of self (me, I) is not the doer of any action."

Before this realisation, we( and the rest of the human population) believe that the 'self' is in
control of all the actions and activity. However, this is not so. This 'sense of self' is more like
an additonal layer of mental activity that wants this or that. This is much like a child that
throws tantrum but is quite powerless to do anything. This realisation allows us to willingly
let go of the excessive mental grasping that is this 'sense of self'.
The progressive non-grasping will lead to a state of no-self... that is what is meant by non-
duality. That is the activities are carried out without the sense of self. There are many
tones/depths of non-duality... but they all have a vividness and clarity quality.
Also, this progressive non-duality will lead to a stage where the mystery of the
world/existence is revealed. It is like psychology unknowingly leading one towards
understanding the mystery about existence.
regards
Isis: 02 January 2007 04:49 AM
quote:
Hi Isis,
The Bright is the result of progressive non-duality. Or rather, brightness is the original
state.
The way (that i know) that will lead towards it is through realisations. ... of which the
major turning point realisation is:

Before this realisation, we( and the rest of the human population) believe that the 'self'
is in control of all the actions and activity. However, this is not so. This 'sense of self' is
more like an additonal layer of mental activity that wants this or that. This is much like
a child that throws tantrum but is quite powerless to do anything. This realisation
allows us to willingly let go of the excessive mental grasping that is this 'sense of self'.
The progressive non-grasping will lead to a state of no-self... that is what is meant by
non-duality. That is the activities are carried out without the sense of self. There are
many tones/depths of non-duality... but they all have a vividness and clarity quality.
regards
Hi Longchen.. will reread the thread posted previously regarding this matter.
congrats in the progression of the path. Continue it!

quote:

Hi Isis,
The Bright is the result of progressive non-duality. Or rather, brightness is the original state.
The way (that i know) that will lead towards it is through realisations. ... of which the major
turning point realisation is:

Before this realisation, we( and the rest of the human population) believe that the 'self' is in
control of all the actions and activity. However, this is not so. This 'sense of self' is more like
an additonal layer of mental activity that wants this or that. This is much like a child that
throws tantrum but is quite powerless to do anything. This realisation allows us to willingly
let go of the excessive mental grasping that is this 'sense of self'.
The progressive non-grasping will lead to a state of no-self... that is what is meant by non-
duality. That is the activities are carried out without the sense of self. There are many
tones/depths of non-duality... but they all have a vividness and clarity quality.
It is also important to note that preceding this realization, you have the intuitive experience of
Eternal Witness and have been continuously seeking and refining this experience for many
years. How Presence is being mistaken as the Eternal Witness and the eventual realization
that The sense of self (me, I) is not the doer of any action cannot be underemphasized. The
depth of insight and experience of a person having Eternal Witness to the experience of
The sense of self (me, I) is not the doer of any action is of different dimension. This
condition has profound implication that led to the eventual realisation of non-duality.
For Buddhists:
Perhaps (in my opinion), this is the condition that triggered the Blessed One to teach about
the Tatagathagarba doctrines in Mahayana Buddhism. A teaching that sounded so much like
the Atman in Hinduism. Obviously many practitioners are unable to have the deep insight
into the truth of Anatta (no-self) that lead one to the realisation that all being the One Reality;
otherwise the teachings of Tatagathagarba would be deemed redundant.
quote:
Well put!
Thanks Thusness for bringing out this very important point.
Yah... before the realisation of 'sense of self is not the doer of action', I was stuck in the
assumption that 'Self' is the Eternal Witness. This is the I AM stage. I was stuck for many
years in that stage.
Many so-called enlightened persons are really at the 'Eternal Witness' stage. They will
usually say things like: 'I am the watcher of the thoughts' or 'be the Witnessing Presence'.
These are not complete understandings. Because of this, a person may not be fully 'detached'
as this constant assumption that 'I AM the Eternal Witness' is a subtle form of mental
attachment.
The truth is, there is NO witness that is apart from all the happenings. Manifestations
themselves know... Knowingness is in-built.
Hi Isis,
I sensed that you will very likely arrive upon this 'Eternal Witness' too. Pls understand this
and don't get stuck for so long like me.
regards
Forum Topic: Does the Buddha Exist After His Death?

Marcteng: 04 January 2007 03:14 AM
The question: 'Does the Buddha exist after His death or not', is not a new question. The same
question was put to the Buddha during His lifetime.
When a group of ascetics came and asked the same question from certain disciples of the
Buddha, they could not get a satisfactory answer from them. Anuradha, a disciple,
approached the Buddha and reported to Him about their conversation. Considering the
understanding capacity of the questioners, the Buddha usually observed silence at such
questions. However in this instance, the Buddha explained to Anuradha in the following
manner:
'O Anuradha, what do you think, is the form (Rupa) permanent or impermanent?'
'Impermanent, Sir.'
'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'
'Painful, Sir.'
'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is
mine; this is I, this is my soul or permanent substance?'
'It is not proper, Sir.'
'Is feeling permanent or impermanent?'
'Impermanent, Sir.'
'Painful, Sir.'
'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as 'This is
mine, this is I, this is my soul'?'
'Are perfection, formative tendencies and consciousness, permanent or impermanent?'
'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Painful, Sir.'
'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is
mine, this is I, this is my soul?'?'
'Therefore whatever form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness which

have been, will be and is now connected with oneself, or with others, gross or subtle, inferior
or superior, far or near; all forms, feelings, perceptions, formative tendencies and
consciousness should be considered by right knowledge in this way: 'This is not mine; this
not I; this is not my soul.' Having seen thus, a noble, learned disciple becomes disenchanted
with the form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies and consciousness. Becoming
disenchanted, he controls his passion and subsequently discards them.'
'Being free from passion he becomes emancipated and insight arises in him: 'I am
emancipated.' He realizes: 'Birth is destroyed, I have lived the holy life and done what had to
be done. There is no more birth for me.'
'What do you think, Anuradha, do you regard the form as a Tathagata?'
'No, Sir.'
'O Anuradha, what is your view, do you see a Tathagata in the form?'
'No, Sir.'
'Do you see a Tathagata apart from form?'
'No, Sir.'
'Do you see a Tathagata in feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness?'
'No, Sir.'
'O Anuradha, what do you think, do you regard that which is without form, feeling,
perception, formative tendencies and consciousness as a Tathagata?'
'No, Sir.'
Now, Anuradha, since a Tathagata is not to be found in this very life, is it proper for you to
say: 'This noble and supreme one has pointed out and explained these four propositions:
A Tathagata exists after death;
A Tathagata does not exist after death;
A Tathagata exists and yet does not exist after death;
A Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death?'

'No, Sir.'
'Well and good, Anuradha. Formerly and now also I expound and point out only the truth of
Suffering and cessation of Suffering.' (Anuradha Sutta---Samyutta Nikaya.)
The above dialogue between the Buddha and Anuradha may not be satisfactory to many,
since it does not satisfy the inquiring mind of the people. Truth is such that it does not give
satisfaction to the emotion and intellect. Truth happens to be the most difficult thing for man
to comprehend. It can only be fully comprehended by Insight. Buddhahood is nothing but the
embodiment of all the great virtues and supreme enlightenment. That is why Buddhas who
could enlighten others are very rare in this world.
An Eternal Now: 04 January 2007 02:57 PM
Yes an enlightened one is traceless and cannot be tracked.
quote:
Not Identifible, Not Comprehendible, Not Traceable
Since the Tathagata, the liberated one does NOT identify himself with the five aggregates
because of that very reason he is not comprehendible. We cannot comprehend him. If he does
not identify himself with any of the aggregates, how can we identify him? He becomes
unidentifiable in relation to the five aggregates. Because it is categorically stated, that
material form by which one may weaken Tathagata, that material form had been completely
eliminated in the case of the Tathagata. That feeling, that perception, those mental formation,
that consciousness, on the basis of which one may describe the Tathagata, all those factors as
far as the Tathagata is concerned had been completely eliminated, eradicated and destroyed.
Therefore the Tathagata is not comprehendible even in this very life.
Dittheva dhamme saccato thetato anupalabbhiya-mana = in this very life the Tathagata is
not comprehendible, he is not identifiable, he is not traceable.
Because he is called the traceless one = apada. Apada means the traceless one, as he leaves
no trace. The liberated saint is the traceless one because he leaves no trace.
Watch It!: 04 January 2007 08:12 PM
... there is no Buddha ...

quote:
Originally posted by Watch It!:

You're saying this in the ultimate or relative sense?

As I have mentioned, ultimately Buddha cannot be identified with the 5 skhandas/aggregates
(i.e 5 skhandas are empty of self) -- in fact that applies to us as well even though we may not
realise it. Therefore, the four proposition is baseless -- that the tathagatha exists, or ceases to
exist/not exist, both, or neither.
On a relative sense, the Buddha as we know "existed" 2500 years ago in India, he attained
enlightenment and taught the dharma for 49 years, and the teachings remained till this day.
Uncountable of his followers in the past and today has awakened and become enlightened,
even in this forum there are highly enlightened people as well.. so we cannot say that there
are no enlightened beings.
Watch It! 04 January 2007 09:21 PM
... you will 'know' what i mean if you truly 'understand' ...
... textual references and expressions are only vehicles to get you there ...
... break free ... realise it ... then release it ...
quote:

... you will 'know' what i mean if you truly 'understand' ...
... textual references and expressions are only vehicles to get you there ...
... break free ... realise it ... then release it ...
Then you are speaking in the ultimate sense.
However, the proposition 'there is no Buddha' is also not ultimately right since emptiness is
not non-existence, but the emptiness of inherent existence, non-existence, both and neither.
No dualistic concepts (i.e existence or non existence) is ultimately correct.
quote:
Then you are speaking in the ultimate sense.
However, the proposition 'there is no Buddha' is also not ultimately right since
emptiness is not non-existence, but the emptiness of inherent existence, non-existence,
both and neither. No dualistic concepts (i.e existence or non existence) is ultimately
correct.
... there is no NO dualistic concepts ...

... 'go' beyond that ...
... there is no ultimate ...
... there is no ultimately correct ...
... do not be trapped in a helix like you here ...
... looks like converging but not quite ...
... there is no spiral ...
... 'realised' that long time ago ...
quote:

... 'go' beyond that ...
... there is no ultimate ...
... there is no ultimately correct ...
... do not be trapped in a helix like you here ...
... looks like converging but not quite ...
... there is no spiral ...
... 'realised' that long time ago ...

... an 'ultimate' is also unnecessary
... neither is there a you nor me
... all these require no realization
... in the great instability of every arising and ceasing
... rest!
Take out the "it!" from "watch it!". Yet that is still not good enough!
quote:

Take out the "it!" from "watch it!". Yet that is still not good enough!
... there is no watch it! ...

... there is no eternal now ...
quote:

... there is no watch it! ...
... there is no eternal now ...
Watch it! Now!

Eric Cartman: 04 January 2007 10:59 PM
so what if you watch it?

quote:
Originally posted by Eric Cartman:

All is gone!
Watch It! Private Messaged Me In Regards To My Post:
... your fly is open ...
... understand what you did what you did ... watch it! ...
... a method i used long ago ... for people who are prepared for it ...
... on a friend ...
... enlightened he became ... so sudden it is ...
... so simple like a cold shudder ...
... glad to know you and that you are such ...
... there is no helix and no spiral ...
... onto the beyond ...

... yet there is no beyond ...
quote:
Originally posted by Eric Cartman:

... the moment is gone ...

... surfaced in the mind like a whale heaving its weight out of the water to 'watch' whats on
the other side ...
... dropping like thunder back again ... into the normality ...
... the moment is gone ...
... there is no moment ...
Nothing left, utterly traceless.
Forum Topic: We are a perfect expression of being

JonLS: 21 January 2007 07:08 AM
When was the last time you worried about fading in and out of existence?
This question is designed to bring you back to the reality of your being.
To the "I am".
Why can't we fully appreciate our perfection?
Because we're too busy identifying with thoughts and feelings in the mind and body.
quote:
Because we're too busy identifying with thoughts and feelings in the mind and body.
And also busy identifying with the "I Am". The worry has now come to it. Dissolve and
passaway, fade out of existence! So be it!
quote:
Why can't we fully appreciate our perfection?
Fade away and appreciate "no where". Sleep well!

If there is an 'I AM' and then there are things other than 'I AM', then this is still dualistic.
This 'I AM' is nothing but just another thought... the assumption of a Witnessing Presence.
No witness is required... just be.

When we clung too deeply to the luminous presence, to that pure sense of existence, we fail
to see the emptiness nature of that presence. Phenomena dances in and out of existence, arises
and subsides according to conditions. When a practitioner does not posit an I and see
that there is really no one behind, then popping in and out of existence is not seen as any
thing unusual, still the perfect expression of our pristine nature that is empty. Allow Presence
to be, no who, no when and no where.
quote:
Fade away and appreciate "no where". Sleep well!
Agreed!
quote:

If there is an 'I AM' and then there are things other than 'I AM', then this is still
dualistic.
This 'I AM' is nothing but just another thought... the assumption of a Witnessing
Presence.
No witness is required... just be.
Agree totally.
To identify with any concept whatsoever takes us away from our true nature.
quote:

When we clung too deeply to the luminous presence, to that pure sense of existence, we
fail to see the emptiness nature of that presence. Phenomena dances in and out of
existence, arises and subsides according to conditions. When a practitioner does not
posit an I and see that there is really no one behind, then popping in and out of
existence is not seen as any thing unusual, still the perfect expression of our pristine
nature that is empty. [b]Allow Presence to be, no who, no when and no where. [/b]
Yes.
Let go of ALL concepts and just be!
quote:
Agreed!
Embrace arising and subsiding. Embrace conscious, pre-conscious and unconscious. When
we hold to the understanding at the conscious level, we cannot see the workings of pre-
conscious and unconscious level. By so doing, we discriminate unknowingly. We divide the
undivided.
There is no way to pin our nature into a certain state. Neither conscious, pre-conscious nor
unconscious is it. To experience the beauty when the conscious isnt there, be it. To have
insight into our nature is to be whatever and whenever condition is Just simply thus. The
cognizing mind cannot know, only Thus come and go alone knows.
quote:
undivided.
Hi all, just sharing an article: Constant Consciousness
Constant Consciousness
By: Ken Wilber
"That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real." -Ramana Maharshi
Sitting here on the porch, watching the sun go down. Except there is no watcher, just the sun,
setting, setting. From purest Emptiness, brilliant clarity shines forth. The sound of the birds,
over there. Clouds, a few, right up there. But there is no "up," no "down," no "over," and no
"there"-because there is no "me" or "I" for which these directions make sense. There is just
this. Simple, clear, easy, effortless, ever-present this.
I became extremely serious about meditation practice when I read the following line from the
illustrious Sri Ramana Maharshi: "That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not
real."
That is a shocking statement, because basically there is nothing-literally nothing-in the deep
dreamless state. That was his point. Ultimate reality (or Spirit), Ramana said, cannot be
something that pops into consciousness and then pops out. It must be something that is
constant, permanent, or, more technically, something that, being timeless, is fully present at
every point in time. Therefore, ultimate reality must also be fully present in deep dreamless
sleep, and anything that is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not ultimate reality.
This profoundly disturbed me, because I had had several kensho or satori-like experiences
(glimpses of One Taste), but they were all confined to the waking state. Moreover, most of
the things I cared for existed in the waking state. And yet clearly the waking state is not
permanent. It comes and goes every twenty-four hours. And yet, according to the great sages,
there is something in us that is always conscious-that is, literally conscious or aware at all
times and through all states, waking, dreaming, sleeping. And that ever-present awareness is
Spirit in us. That underlying current of constant consciousness (or nondual awareness) is a
direct and unbroken ray of pure Spirit itself. It is our connection with the Goddess, our
pipeline straight to God.
Thus, if we want to realize our supreme identity with Spirit, we will have to plug ourselves
into this current of constant consciousness, and follow it through all changes of state-waking,
dreaming, sleeping. This will: 1) strip us of an exclusive identification with any of those
states (such as the body, the mind, the ego, or the soul); and 2) allow us to recognize and
identify with that which is constant-or timeless-through all of those states, namely,
Consciousness as Such, by any other name, timeless Spirit.
I had been meditating fairly intensely for around twenty years when I came across that line
from Ramana. I had studied Zen with Katigiri and Maezumi; Vajrayana with Kalu and
Trungpa; Dzogchen with Pema Norbu and Chagdud; plus Vedanta, TM, Kashmir Shaivism,
Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, Daism, Sufism... well, it's a long list. When I ran across
Ramana's statement, I was on an intensive Dzogchen retreat with my primary Dzogchen
teacher, Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche. Rinpoche also stressed the importance of carrying the
mirror-mind into the dream and deep sleep states. I began having flashes of this constant
nondual awareness, through all states, which Rinpoche confirmed. But it wasn't until a few
years later, during a very intense eleven-day period-in which the separate-self seemed to
radically, deeply, thoroughly die-that it all seemed to come to fruition. I slept not at all during
those eleven days; or rather, I was conscious for eleven days; or rather, I was conscious for
eleven days and nights, even as the body and mind went through waking, dreaming and
sleeping. I was unmoved in the midst of changes; there was no I to be moved; there was only
unwavering empty consciousness, the luminous mirror-mind, the witness that was one with
everything witnessed. I simply reverted to what I am, and it has been so, more or less, ever
since.
The moment this constant nondual consciousness is obvious in your case, a new destiny will
awaken in the midst of the manifest world. You will have discovered your own Buddha
Mind, you own Godhead, your own formless, spaceless, timeless, infinite Emptiness, your
own Atman that is Brahman, your Keter, Christ consciousness, radiant shekinah-in so many
words, One Taste. It is unmistakably so. And just that is your true identity-pure Emptiness or
pure unqualifiable Consciousness as Such-and thus you are released from the terror and the
torment that necessarily arise when you identify with a little subject in a world of little
objects.
Once you find your formless identity as Buddha-mind, as Atman, as pure Spirit or Godhead,
you will take that constant, non-dual, ever present consciousness and re-enter the lesser
states, subtle mind and gross body, and re-animate them with radiance. You will not remain
merely Formless and Empty. You will empty yourself of Emptiness: you will pour yourself
out into the mind and world, and create them in the process, and enter them all equally, but
especially and particularly that specific mind and body that is called you (that is called, in my
case, Ken Wilber): this lesser self will become the vehicle of the Spirit that you are.
And then all things, including your own little mind and body and feelings and thoughts, will
arise in the vast Emptiness that you are, and they will self-liberate into their own true nature
just as they arise, precisely because you no longer identify with any of them, but rather let
them play, let them all arise, in the Emptiness and Openness that you now are. You then will
awaken as radical Freedom, and sing those songs of radiant release, beam an infinity too
obvious to see, and drink an ocean of delight. You will look at the moon as part of your body
and bow to the sun as part of your heart, and all of it is just so. For eternally and always,
eternally and always, there is only this.
Material in this column appears in One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber, from Shambhala
Publications Inc., Boston. Copyright Ken Wilber, 1998.
Constant Consciousness, Ken Wilber, Shambhala Sun, January 1999.

JonLS: 22 January 2007 01:31 PM
quote:
undivided.
Hi Thusness,
This is a very interesting answer because something happened today that fits perfectly with
what you have said.
I don't know if I can explain and describe it properly but I will try.
I was sitting quietly when a certain "knowing" was in consciousness, this "knowing" had a
message for me.
The message was to "abandon that way of knowing".
"That way of knowing" is the conscious reality that I experience every day as the "dream".
I am to abandon it and just be.
I have no idea how to do this, but I don't feel a need to know.
I simply allow, I trust.

quote:
Hi all, just sharing an article: Constant Consciousness
[b]Constant Consciousness
By: Ken Wilber
"That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real." -Ramana Maharshi
Sitting here on the porch, watching the sun go down. Except there is no watcher, just the sun,
setting, setting. From purest Emptiness, brilliant clarity shines forth. The sound of the birds,
over there. Clouds, a few, right up there. But there is no "up," no "down," no "over," and no
"there"-because there is no "me" or "I" for which these directions make sense. There is just
this. Simple, clear, easy, effortless, ever-present this.
I became extremely serious about meditation practice when I read the following line from the
illustrious Sri Ramana Maharshi: "That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not
real."
That is a shocking statement, because basically there is nothing-literally nothing-in the deep
dreamless state. That was his point. Ultimate reality (or Spirit), Ramana said, cannot be
something that pops into consciousness and then pops out. It must be something that is
constant, permanent, or, more technically, something that, being timeless, is fully present at
every point in time. Therefore, ultimate reality must also be fully present in deep dreamless
sleep, and anything that is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not ultimate reality.
This profoundly disturbed me, because I had had several kensho or satori-like experiences
(glimpses of One Taste), but they were all confined to the waking state. Moreover, most of
the things I cared for existed in the waking state. And yet clearly the waking state is not
permanent. It comes and goes every twenty-four hours. And yet, according to the great sages,
there is something in us that is always conscious-that is, literally conscious or aware at all
times and through all states, waking, dreaming, sleeping. And that ever-present awareness is
Spirit in us. That underlying current of constant consciousness (or nondual awareness) is a
direct and unbroken ray of pure Spirit itself. It is our connection with the Goddess, our
pipeline straight to God.
Thus, if we want to realize our supreme identity with Spirit, we will have to plug ourselves
into this current of constant consciousness, and follow it through all changes of state-waking,
dreaming, sleeping. This will: 1) strip us of an exclusive identification with any of those
states (such as the body, the mind, the ego, or the soul); and 2) allow us to recognize and
identify with that which is constant-or timeless-through all of those states, namely,
Consciousness as Such, by any other name, timeless Spirit.
I had been meditating fairly intensely for around twenty years when I came across that line
from Ramana. I had studied Zen with Katigiri and Maezumi; Vajrayana with Kalu and
Trungpa; Dzogchen with Pema Norbu and Chagdud; plus Vedanta, TM, Kashmir Shaivism,
Christian mysticism, Kabbalah, Daism, Sufism... well, it's a long list. When I ran across
Ramana's statement, I was on an intensive Dzogchen retreat with my primary Dzogchen
teacher, Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche. Rinpoche also stressed the importance of carrying the
mirror-mind into the dream and deep sleep states. I began having flashes of this constant
nondual awareness, through all states, which Rinpoche confirmed. But it wasn't until a few
years later, during a very intense eleven-day period-in which the separate-self seemed to
radically, deeply, thoroughly die-that it all seemed to come to fruition. I slept not at all during
those eleven days; or rather, I was conscious for eleven days; or rather, I was conscious for
eleven days and nights, even as the body and mind went through waking, dreaming and
sleeping. I was unmoved in the midst of changes; there was no I to be moved; there was only
unwavering empty consciousness, the luminous mirror-mind, the witness that was one with
everything witnessed. I simply reverted to what I am, and it has been so, more or less, ever
since.
The moment this constant nondual consciousness is obvious in your case, a new destiny will
awaken in the midst of the manifest world. You will have discovered your own Buddha
Mind, you own Godhead, your own formless, spaceless, timeless, infinite Emptiness, your
own Atman that is Brahman, your Keter, Christ consciousness, radiant shekinah-in so many
words, One Taste. It is unmistakably so. And just that is your true identity-pure Emptiness or
pure unqualifiable Consciousness as Such-and thus you are released from the terror and the
torment that necessarily arise when you identify with a little subject in a world of little
objects.
Once you find your formless identity as Buddha-mind, as Atman, as pure Spirit or Godhead,
you will take that constant, non-dual, ever present consciousness and re-enter the lesser
states, subtle mind and gross body, and re-animate them with radiance. You will not remain
merely Formless and Empty. You will empty yourself of Emptiness: you will pour yourself
out into the mind and world, and create them in the process, and enter them all equally, but
especially and particularly that specific mind and body that is called you (that is called, in my
case, Ken Wilber): this lesser self will become the vehicle of the Spirit that you are.
And then all things, including your own little mind and body and feelings and thoughts, will
arise in the vast Emptiness that you are, and they will self-liberate into their own true nature
just as they arise, precisely because you no longer identify with any of them, but rather let
them play, let them all arise, in the Emptiness and Openness that you now are. You then will
awaken as radical Freedom, and sing those songs of radiant release, beam an infinity too
obvious to see, and drink an ocean of delight. You will look at the moon as part of your body
and bow to the sun as part of your heart, and all of it is just so. For eternally and always,
eternally and always, there is only this.
Material in this column appears in One Taste: The Journals of Ken Wilber, from Shambhala
Publications Inc., Boston. Copyright Ken Wilber, 1998.
Constant Consciousness, Ken Wilber, Shambhala Sun, January 1999.

[/b]
Not to mistake what I said with Yoga Nidra of what Swami Rama taught or what Ramana
Marharishi said. And not to mistake the dreamless state of Samadhi with nirohdha samapatti.
Witnessing is not the only an aspect of our Pristine Awareness, not all of it.
quote:
Hi Thusness,
This is a very interesting answer because something happened today that fits perfectly
with what you have said.
I don't know if I can explain and describe it properly but I will try.
I was sitting quietly when a certain "knowing" was in consciousness, this "knowing"
had a message for me.
The message was to "abandon that way of knowing".
"That way of knowing" is the conscious reality that I experience every day as the
"dream".
I am to abandon it and just be.
I have no idea how to do this, but I don't feel a need to know.
I simply allow, I trust.
Yes JonLs,
There is no line of demarcation among the 8 consciousness (buddhist terms) or the 3 states of
consciousness conscious, pre-conscious, unconscious, attachment creates that line. For the
sake of discussion in a conventional sense and non-buddhist term, it is said there are
conscious, pre-conscious, unconsciousness, but in essence it is an undivided whole. True
clarity comes when there is a total let be for manifestation to take place in all states when
condition arises. The conscious level knows the effect and in the right track through the
intensity clarity and bliss during the waking state.
And yes initially it is trust and faith through the fruition of clarity and bliss, with stability it is
understood as a working whole simply just so -- As One undivided flow.
Good Luck.
quote:
Not to mistake what I said with Yoga Nidra of what Swami Rama taught or what
Ramana Marharishi said. And not to mistake the dreamless state of Samadhi with
nirohdha samapatti. Witnessing is not the only an aspect of our Pristine Awareness,
not all of it.
What is Yoga Nidra of Swami Rama?
Also, the description of Ken Wilbers Constant Consciousness is not referring to Witnessing
presence, isnt it?
quote:
What is Yoga Nidra of Swami Rama?
Also, the description of Ken Wilber's Constant Consciousness is not refering to

Witnessing presence, isn't it?
What Ken Wilbur said is the witnessing state of dreamless yoga - nidra yoga.
Hi AnEternalNow,
That is an absolutely fantastic quote by Ken Wilbur, I recognize the truth in it, now all that is
left is to realize it!
quote:

Hi AnEternalNow,
That is an absolutely fantastic quote by Ken Wilbur, I recognize the truth in it, now all
that is left is to realize it!
Hi JonLS,
There is Presence but do not attempt to substain the 'Witnessing', this is attempting to hold on
to a "familar state of being when the conditions of senses are functioning". Allow to be and
completely let go. For what is"What Is" when the senses are suspended and perceptions,
concepts and feelings come to a complete rest? Be Non-dual in dreamless, be non-dual in all
3 states and the energy u experienced will dance vibrantly with bliss to tell that you are on the
right path during waking state.
quote:
Hi JonLS,
There is Presence but do not attempt to substain the 'Witnessing', this is attempting to
hold on to a "familar state of being when the conditions of senses are functioning".
Allow to be and completely let go. For what is"What Is" when the senses are suspended
and perceptions, concepts and feelings come to a complete rest? Be Non-dual in
dreamless, be non-dual in all 3 states and the energy u experienced will dance vibrantly
with bliss to tell that you are on the right path during waking state.
Yes!!!
Thank you!!!
Note: Thusness warned that the article Constant Consciousness I posted has led JonLS
to the path of the dark nights due to the dualistic practise. Check the MSN conversation on
22 January 2007.
Forum Topic: The Power of Now

Why is Eckhart's book called "The Power of Now"?
Because your true nature is always right now in the present moment.
That's all that really exists, is the present moment.
The past is just a bunch of memories that can only be recalled "now", and the future is just a
bunch of thoughts projected into an imaginary future.
Let me ask you a question.
The awareness that is streaming through your eyes right now, that is taking in this post.
How old is it?
What sex is it, male or female?
Has this awareness changed at all since you were an infant?
Your thoughts about who you are and what the world is certainly have changed, but has
awareness ever changed?
Could you say that the awareness is unchanging, always there, always present right now.
Does it have an eternal quality about it?
Let me ask you another question.
What do you think of this moment right now?
Is it particularly good? Or bad?
You will need to refer to your thoughts to answer this question because you are moving away
from your true nature.
You are moving into the story of being a separate human being that has needs and wants and
is always moving in time.
So, the present moment, which is your true nature, is glossed over, and you instead identify
with the story of becoming, of solving the myriad problems you have as a separate individual,
of moving forward in time hoping one day to finally "arrive" and find true happiness.
But you and I know that day will never come, because as soon as you solve one problem,
another problem will pop up to replace it.
One could say that being a separate person is in fact a state of perpetual problem. Because it
is "you" against the world.
However, if you rested in your true nature, which is awareness, which is pure consciousness,
which is spirit, which is the present moment, then would there be any problems?
How can you have a problem when you are all that is?
How can you have a problem when you have let go of the story of what you thought you
were?
What do you end up with then?
Just the simplicity of this moment.
Which is all there really is.
Which is everything.
Which is what you are.

quote:

Why is Eckhart's book called "The Power of Now"?
Because your true nature is always right now in the present moment.
That's all that really exists, is the present moment.
The past is just a bunch of memories that can only be recalled "now", and the future is
just a bunch of thoughts projected into an imaginary future.
Let me ask you a question.
The awareness that is streaming through your eyes right now, that is taking in this post.
How old is it?
What sex is it, male or female?
Has this awareness changed at all since you were an infant?
Your thoughts about who you are and what the world is certainly have changed, but has
awareness ever changed?
Could you say that the awareness is unchanging, always there, always present right
now.
Does it have an eternal quality about it?
Let me ask you another question.
What do you think of this moment right now?

Is it particularly good? Or bad?
You will need to refer to your thoughts to answer this question because you are moving
away from your true nature.
You are moving into the story of being a separate human being that has needs and
wants and is always moving in time.
So, the present moment, which is your true nature, is glossed over, and you instead
identify with the story of becoming, of solving the myriad problems you have as a
separate individual, of moving forward in time hoping one day to finally "arrive" and
find true happiness.
But you and I know that day will never come, because as soon as you solve one problem,
another problem will pop up to replace it.
One could say that being a separate person is in fact a state of perpetual problem.
Because it is "you" against the world.
However, if you rested in your true nature, which is awareness, which is pure
consciousness, which is spirit, which is the present moment, then would there be any
problems?
How can you have a problem when you are all that is?
How can you have a problem when you have let go of the story of what you thought you
were?
What do you end up with then?
Just the simplicity of this moment.
Which is all there really is.
Which is everything.
Which is what you are.
The Now has no identity, no image and no sameness. Not a background and is not a
container for things to manifest. When free of concepts, free of the bondage and the need for
a background, the that, the it, the arising and subsiding phenomena is the presence.
There is no changing thing, there is only change. Things are cognized.

The ever becoming has no end and does not begin. No one particular moment is all of it and
yet, no moment isnt it. Neither is there an All to this stream as All has no meaning in an
endless stream of becoming.
Look, see and point to the mountain, listen to the drumbeats of footsteps, hear the chirping
birds; without overlaying symbols, free of concepts, delimited not by a body, not affect by the
imprints of senses, undefined by languages, all is and are the Pristine Awareness.
Yet the entire beauty, richness, fabric and texture of this so lucidly clear and real, does not
remain even for a moment, instantaneously it is gone. Embrace "this instantaneously gone"
and embrace let arise, this is its nature, simply so.
quote:
The Now has no identity, no image and no sameness. Not a background and is not a
container for things to manifest. When free of concepts, free of the bondage and the
need for a background, the that, the it, the arising and subsiding phenomena is the
presence.
There is no changing thing, there is only change. Things are cognized.

The ever becoming has no end and does not begin. No one particular moment is all of it
and yet, no moment isnt it. Neither is there an All to this stream as All has no
meaning in an endless stream of becoming.
Look, see and point to the mountain, listen to the drumbeats of footsteps, hear the
chirping birds; without overlaying symbols, free of concepts, delimited not by a body,
not affect by the imprints of senses, undefined by languages, all is and are the Pristine
Awareness.
Yet the entire beauty, richness, fabric and texture of this so lucidly clear and real, does
not remain even for a moment, instantaneously it is gone. Embrace "this
instantaneously gone" and embrace let arise, this is its nature, simply so.
Pure awareness, which I have experienced momentarily and then was gone, is not something
that will become a permanent state?
quote:
Pure awareness, which I have experienced momentarily and then was gone, is not
something that will become a permanent state?
There is continuity but there is no permanent changeless state. This distinction is important
because it prevents us from experiencing the 3 most important aspects of our nature --
conditioning momentum, no-self (non-duality) and our emptiness nature.
What that you have experienced as the I AM is a direct, immediate, bare, raw mode of
experiencing mind free from any form of conceptualization and mental fabrication. It is a
mere, pure sense of existence -- beingness. The experience is overwhelming but very quickly,
due to habit energy and the power of the thinking mind to abstract, a permanent changeless
nature is created. This is the result of conditioning momentum. This conditioning
momentum prevents us from clear seeing even after the initial experience of Presence as I
AM.
The habitual latency is also at work we attempt to let go or let be. That is, the letting go is
only appearance, it merely takes place at the conscious level but at a more subtle level we are
holding. So in essence we are holding. We cannot let the attachment of our pristine clarity
blind us from acknowledging the workings of this momentum. Same applies to the insight of
"manifestation as the source" that you had, it is also being overcome by this momentum and
you continuously sank back to the source . It is strong.
Edited:
What happen if the luminous clarity of our pristine awareness posses this quantum
entanglement characteristic (Emptiness).
http://www.boloji.com/buddhism/00119.htm
Pure awareness has no particular state. A permanent state is being cognized out due to the
power of the mind to abstract. Direct experience requires no such postulation. The
permanent state is the 'holding factor' that prevents the self-liberating nature of the mind.
Direct the experience to the manifestation, only the manifesation in all diverse forms.
Beingness is not fusing two into one; it is our spontaneous manifesting nature that has always
been the it, the ceaseless manifestation. The beauty of Presence is in its manifold so it is
needless to hold on to a 'changeless' source. In each moment of the flux, Be; all moments are
pure, rich and identity-less.
Nathan Gill uploaded these two weeks ago:
quote:
Going beyond.

peace.
But in actuality there is no beyond, nothing to be attained 'ultimately'. There's simply this as it
is: simple presence. This is already that 'realm'. Consciousness (awareness and the presently
appearing content of awareness) is already one or whole, and when the story of 'me' - of
identification - is seen as just a play, a movie, then all pursuit of oneness, all pursuit of the
beyond or whatever, quite naturally becomes obsolete.
quote:
http://www.nathangill.com/pages/readingroom/cosmic-entertainment.html
The cosmic entertainment.
Are you saying that thought doesn't make a difference, that nothing makes a difference in the
sense of cause and effect? Everything just arises?
Everything just arises, including the idea of cause and effect.
But doesn't that idea itself make a difference? Doesn't the idea create an effect at a local
level?
Only apparently so, as part of the play or movie of life. In actuality there's no cause and
effect. Everything - all of this imagery - arises entirely spontaneously, immediately. Within
the movie of life, there is the impression of cause and effect, but in actuality there is no
separation, so nothing that can act upon anything else.
So it all just happens to arise and it just looks as though there's relationship?
Yes, the imagery that arises merely suggests separation.
And so somebody who identifies with an 'I' or with a body -
Well, it's not that there's 'someone' who identifies - rather it's more accurately described by
saying 'Where identification arises '.
OK, so where identification arises, that is something that nothing can be done about?
Precisely so. If anything changes it does so entirely spontaneously - because there's no one
here who can effect any change. Cause and effect, action and reaction, are appearance only,
the imagery of the movie of life, the cosmic entertainment.
quote:

Nathan Gill uploaded these two weeks ago:
Going beyond.

peace.
But in actuality there is no beyond, nothing to be attained 'ultimately'. There's simply

this as it is: simple presence. This is already that 'realm'. Consciousness (awareness and the
presently appearing content of awareness) is already one or whole, and when the story of 'me'
- of identification - is seen as just a play, a movie, then all pursuit of oneness, all pursuit of
the beyond or whatever, quite naturally becomes obsolete.
Yes and very well said.

There is no beyond and therefore there is no "ultimate unchanging state".
quote:

Pure awareness has no particular state. A permanent state is being cognized out due to
the power of the mind to abstract. Direct experience requires no such postulation.
The permanent state is the 'holding factor' that prevents the experience of the self-
liberating nature of the mind. If we were to direct the experience to the manifestation
and only the manifesation alone, the beauty of Presence is in its manifold will be
experienced. It is needless to hold on to a 'changeless' source. In each moment of the
flux, [b]Be; all moments are equally pure, rich and identity-less.[/b]
Understood.
Thank you.
Hi AnEternalNow,
I LOVE Nathan Gills' stuff, he is wonderfully clear and pristine.
Forum Topic: Adyashanti

Here are some extracts from his book "The Impact of Awakening".
quote:
Introduction
When you come to the point in life where you are ready to inquire directly into the unknown
core of your being, you are ripe to awaken from the dream of separation. The direct path of
spiritual inquiry begins not with seeking something that you yearn for, but with seeking the
seeker, the essential "I".
In order for inquiry to be powerful and liberating, it needs to be understood that spiritual
inquiry is not something to be performed by the mind. Inquiry is a tool that points you
directly back to your own being, to experience before the mind. If you read this book with
your mind only, you are wasting your time. But if you read it with your whole being - if you
listen to it, feel it, sense it, resonate with it, and digest it slowly, you may find that it is
worthwhile after all.
I am not speaking to who you think you are, I am speaking to You, the Awareness behind the
mask called "me". This book is for You. You will see your Self celebrated in every page.
quote:
WHO ARE YOU?
You are...
beyond the body-mind and personality,

beyond all experience and the experiencer thereof,
beyond the world and its perceiver,
beyond existence and its absence,
beyond all assertions and denials.
Be still and awaken to the realization of who you Are.
In this realization of no separate self,
the Supreme Reality which you Are shines unobscured
in all things, as all things, and beyond all things.
Having returned to the formless Source

and transcended all separateness,
do not stop or cling even to this Source,
but go beyond the Supreme Realization
which transcends all dualities,
yet does not deny even a speck of dust.
Having abandoned all concepts and ideas,

the enlightened sage lives as ever-present consciousness,
manifested and manifesting in the world of time and space
That which is eternal, ever new, and whole.
quote:
Chapter One
The Evolutionary Impulse to be Free
Do not seek after what you yearn for,
seek the source of the yearning itself.
The impulse to be free is an evolutionary spark within consciousness which originates from
beyond the ego. It is an impulse toward the divine, unity, and wholeness. It is an impulse
originating from the Truth itself. This impulse to evolve is often co-opted by the ego, which
then creates the illusion of the spiritual seeker. This impulse which is inherently innocent, is
something that, in and of itself, has nothing to do with seeking to attain. It is only when the
ego co-opts the impulse and then tries to attain something, that the seeker is born. This
impulse, this spark of evolution, becomes almost instantly corrupted by a wanting which
gives birth to the seeker.
Quest: So then how does one not move away from that impulse, into striving and seeking?
How do you stay in the impulse?
Answer: You stay in the impulse by seeing it as an impulse and not interpreting it as coming
from a lack. A sense of lack is the ego's interpretation of the impulse which intantly gives rise
to the separate, lost seeker. The impulse is an inner pressure to evolve, to become whole, to
be free. It comes from your true nature, your already present divinity.
Quest: So the pressure to evolve is interpreted as a lack.
Answer: Yes. Actually the impulse comes not from a lack, but from the spark of evolution. In
that sense it comes from fullness. It comes from that which already is. The impulse to be free
is actually coming directly from a freedom that is already starting to break into
consciousness. The evolution is going from misunderstanding, which is ignorance, to
Wisdom, which is Self realization. The impulse to be free comes from Wisdom.
Quest: I would like clarification. Isn't the spiritual seeker just an innocent expression of the
impulse to be free?
Answer: It starts out as an innocent seeking, curiosity, or yearning, then the ego quickly
corrupts it into a form of seeking for something outside of oneself. This is the birth of the
seeker. There is only seeking without a seeker. Ask yourself: From where does the impulse,
the yearning to be free, arise? Go to it's source, to the fullness before the yearning.
Thanks for sharing the post JonLS. There are too many beyonds.
I prefer Nathan Gills' stuff especially his last 2 articles.
Hi Thusness and AnEternalNow,
The inner dimension has been opening up at the center of my being for about 18 months now,
but the quality of the experience is changing now.
It is no longer so much an opening up anymore, because the egoic structures are not as firmly
present as they were before, now it feels more like an expansion or a pressure from within.
I truly feel very close to what Adyashanti says about this impulse, especially this line:
quote:
The impulse is an inner pressure to evolve, to become whole, to be free.

Adyashanti's explanations are bringing a great deal of clarity to the human experience.
I am aware of the impulse that Adyashanti talks about. In the past, i identified it as the
oversoul.
One of my teacher taught me a way to surface and bring it's 'content' into the conscious mind
via a type of meditation.
This aspect seeks to evolve and seek 'fulfillment'...but its 'outward externalisation' becomes
the 'sense of self or ego'. This very impulse is our deep subconscious mind that most of us are
not aware of.
In my opinion only... (so pl don't take it too seriously)... is that this impulse must be seen for
what it truly is. To me, it is the very root of our rebirth cycle. Because, to me, the impulse
creates a continous movement via desire... if it is not 'seen' for what it is. All of us wants to be
happy and live better life... this is the momentum of that impulse... but in ignorance... it
creates the constantly seeking 'self'. Perhaps, it is this constant seeking for fulfillment that
cause the rebirth... for we all feels that the rebirth can fulfill some of our desires.
Hi longchen,
quote:
not aware of.
This feels very good to me.
What you are really saying is that the impulse itself is simply another aspect of the dream, of
"becoming", of the world of phenomenon.
Quote:

I am aware of the impulse that Adyashanti talks about. In the past, i identified it as the
oversoul.
One of my teacher taught me a way to surface and bring it's 'content' into the conscious mind
via a type of meditation.
not aware of.
In my opinion only... (so pl don't take it too seriously)... is that this impulse must be seen for
what it truly is. To me, it is the very root of our rebirth cycle. Because, to me, the impulse
creates a continous movement via desire... if it is not 'seen' for what it is. All of us wants to be
happy and live better life... this is the momentum of that impulse... but in ignorance... it
creates the constantly seeking 'self'. Perhaps, it is this constant seeking for fulfillment that
cause the rebirth... for we all feels that the rebirth can fulfill some of our desires.
Yes. Ignorance is a very very very deep form of "knowing" but dualistic knowing.
"Knowingness" has all implications to Consciousness. Therefore liberation is not by will;
only insight liberates.
quote:
"Knowingness" has all implications to Consciousness. Therefore liberation is not by
will; only insight liberates.
Yes!
One good insight is worth more than a lifetime of learning and practice.
quote:

Hi longchen,
This feels very good to me.
What you are really saying is that the impulse itself is simply another aspect of the
dream, of "becoming", of the world of phenomenon.
Hi JonLS
Erm... i suppose so
I suppose that is why some mystics tends to see life and drama as a grand experiment.
regards
Quote:
"Knowingness" has all implications to Consciousness. Therefore liberation is not by
will; only insight liberates.
So true... and direct to the point. Thanks Thusness.
Forum Topic: Nothing is happening here

Here are some quotes by Nathan Gill:
quote:
[quote]This communication about clarity has no particular relevance or significance

over any other part of the play. It carries no merit and has no point. There is no
purpose for You to find Yourself.
quote:
If all there is is Consciousness, if there is only Consciousness, then why or for what
are you still seeking? If there is only Consciousness then right now you must be That and
every thing else that appears in and as awareness must also be That, including any sense
of separate self. Any appearance of mundane, ordinary existence can be no less of
Consciousness than any appearance of unconditional love, wholeness, bliss, stillness,
silence or anything else. Does anything really need to be transcended,
found or let go of?
quote:
The apparently separate individual may be involved with self-improvement, spiritual life or
anything else throughout the unfolding of that life. But only the clarity of what You really are
undermines the search for awakening or for being anything other than what already is.
quote:
Spiritual life has no particular relevance to clarity it is simply part of the play of life. But
because of what appears in the play as the individuals evolution through progressively
higher or finer stages of life, it is confused as a prerequisite to clarity.
The ordinary character, occupied with all the usual affairs of human life, perhaps becomes
interested in religion or self-improvement. There could be a movement towards seeking
enlightenment and maybe an interest in non-duality.
But this progression is not necessary for clarity to appear. Clarity could appear at any time in
any character in the play. None of the apparent stages in the play of life has any ability to
produce clarity. Advaitic knowledge has no more a special ability to create a condition for
clarity to appear than does any other part of the play.
Spiritual life is based on the presumption of individuality, with reunion with the whole as the
projected goal. And as a means to achieve this goal of reunion, an array of exotic techniques
and methods are provided in the play, to purify the individual, to get rid of the I, to
become enlightened, etc.
The fundamental point that is missed at every stage of the individuals quest is that the
individual being played by You, who are Consciousness is already what he or she is
seeking. Nothing can make the seeker any more what he or she already is.
The search and all the methods and techniques employed are there for no more reason than
any other part of the play. They arise for their own sake, simply as part of the play.
quote:
There is already only oneness or wholeness, and yet, when there is this mesmerising focus
exclusively on the content aspect of oneness, there is a search for oneness. And this is the
play of life: oneness in search of itself.
quote:
In the thought story there is a search for meaning and a looking for a way out of it all -
whereas when it's seen to be simply a story arising presently, an extension into past and
future existing merely in thought, then the seriousness goes out of the quest for oneness.
There is simply registering of the present content of awareness. This is all that is ever
happening. This is already presence, already oneness.
There is mesmerisation, identification as the thought story, but there is no one who is
mesmerised. The 'I' is only apparent, part of the happening. Everything is happening entirely
spontaneously of its own accord. There is nothing that 'you' are doing. This message is not a
prescription for oneness - it's a description of it.
All of these quotes are pointing to the same thing, to the fact that the basic premise of these
boards is incorrect.
The basic premise of these discussion boards is that there is a spiritual search that is
happening, that someone can benefit from this search.
But we may as well be talking about cooking recipes because both are on the same level.
On the level of phenomenon, on the level of appearance, on the level of the story, on the level
of the dream.
What is being discussed on these boards and in this post in particular has nothing to do with
Truth, with Reality.
Because Reality already Is.
Total freedom is already the Reality.
There is nothing that need be done.
There is nothing that need be understood.
Nothing is happening here whatsoever.
But of course even this post "is not the truth".
Nothing can be said of the truth.

Yes, nothing is happening and indeed nothing needs to be attained. Enlightenment is a form
of "insight"/"waking up" from false conceptions, and finds that nothing can be grasped/hold
on. Therefore it can be truly called 'liberation'.
quote:
(chapter on bodhisattva manjusri)
Bodhisattva Manjusri
Thereupon Bodhisattva Manjusri rose from his seat in the midst of the assembly, prostrated
himself at the feet of the Buddha, circled the Buddha three times to the right, knelt down,
joined his palms, [1] and said: O World Honored One of great compassion! Please expound
to the multitude who have come to this assembly the Tathagata s Dharma practice of the
original-arising purity of the causal ground. [2] Please also expound to us how bodhisattvas
may initiate this state of pure mind within the Mahayana and leave all illness. [Pray teach us]
so that sentient beings in the future Dharma Ending Age who aspire to the Mahayana will not
fall into erroneous views. Having said these words, he prostrated himself on the ground. He
made the same request three times, each time repeating the same procedure.
At that time the World Honored One said to Bodhisattva Manjusri: Excellent, excellent!
Virtuous man, for the benefit of the multitude of bodhisattvas you have asked about the
Tathagatas Dharma practice of the causal ground. For the benefit of all sentient beings in the
Dharma Ending Age who aspire to Mahayana, you asked how they can attain correct abiding
and not fall into erroneous views. Listen attentively now. I shall explain it to you.
Hearing this, Bodhisattva Manjusri was filled with joy and listened silently along with the
assembly.
Virtuous man, the Supreme Dharma King possesses the method of the great dharani [3]
called Complete Enlightenment, [4] out of which emanates pure true suchness, bodhi, and
nirvana, as well as the paramitas to teach bodhisattvas. The original-arising [purity] of the
causal ground of the Tathagatas relies on the complete illumination of [intrinsic]
enlightenment, which is pure [in essence] and permanently free from ignorance. [5] Only
then do the [Tathagatas] accomplish the Buddha Path.
What is ignorance? Virtuous man, since beginningless time, all sentient beings have had all
sorts of delusions, like a disoriented person who has lost his sense of direction. They mistake
the four great elements [6] as the attributes of their bodies, and the conditioned impressions
[7] of the six sense objects as the attributes of their minds. They are like a man with an illness
of the eyes who sees an [illusory] flower in the sky, or a second moon.
Virtuous man, there is in reality no flower in the sky, yet the sick man mistakenly clings to
it. Because of his mistaken clinging, he is not only deluded about the intrinsic nature of the
empty space, but also confused about the arising of the flower. Because of this false existence
[to which he clings], he remains in the turning wheel of birth and death. Hence this is called
ignorance.
Virtuous man, this ignorance has no real substance. It is like a person in a dream. Though
the person exists in the dream, when [the dreamer] awakens, there is nothing that can be
grasped. Like an [illusory] flower in the sky that vanishes into empty space, one cannot say
that there is a fixed place from which it vanishes. Why? Because there is no place from which
it arises! Amidst the unarisen, all sentient beings deludedly perceive birth and extinction.
Hence this is called the turning wheel of birth and death.
Virtuous man, one who practices Complete Enlightenment of the causal ground of the
Tathagata realizes that [birth and extinction] are like an illusory flower in the sky. Thus there
is no continuance of birth and death and no body or mind that is subject to birth and death.
This nonexistence of [birth and death and body and mind] is so not as a consequence of
contrived effort. It is so by its intrinsic nature.
The awareness [of their nonexistence] is like empty space. That which is aware of the empty
space is like the appearance of the illusory flower. However, one cannot say that the nature of
this awareness is nonexistent. Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance
with pure enlightenment.
Why is it so? Because the nature of empty space is ever unmoving. Likewise, there is neither
arising nor perishing within the Tathagatagarbha. [8] It is free from conceptual knowledge
and views. Like the nature of dharmadhatu, which is ultimate, wholly complete, and pervades
all ten directions, such is the Dharma practice [of the Tathagata] of the causal ground.
Because of this [intrinsic completeness], bodhisattvas within the Mahayana may give rise to
pure bodhi-mind. If sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age practice accordingly, they will
not fall into erroneous views.
At that time, the World Honored One, wishing to clarify his meaning, proclaimed these
gathas:
Manjusri, you should know

that all Tathagatas,
from their original-arising causal ground,
use wisdom to enlighten
and penetrate ignorance.
Realizing that ignorance is like
a flower in the sky,
they are thus liberated from the continuance
[of birth and death].
Like a person [seen] in a dream who
cannot be found when [the dreamer] awakens,
awareness is like empty space.
It is impartial and equal, and ever unmoving.
When enlightenment pervades all ten directions,
the Buddha Path is accomplished.
There is no place where illusions vanish,
and there is no attainment
in accomplishing the Buddha Path,
for the intrinsic nature is already wholly complete.
By this, bodhisattvas
can give rise to the bodhi-mind.
Sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age
through this practice will avoid erroneous views.
[1] Literally, this should be translated as joined his palms together with the tips of the
fingers crossed (cha shou). This is one of the ancient Indian gestures for respect. It
symbolizes the nonduality of the realm of the Buddhas (the left hand) and the realm of
ordinary sentient beings (right hand).
[2] Causal ground (yin di) can also be understood as the mind-ground (xin di). It refers to
both the circumstance when the Buddha first initiated the bodhi-mind (chu fa pu ti xin) and to
the intrinsic nature of mind (xin xing) or Buddha-nature (fo xing). Original arising, ben qi
simply means the fundamental starting point of Dharma practice (fa xing), which refers to the
practice that accords with the nature of all dharmas (fa xing), that is, emptiness, (kong xing).
[3] Dharani (zong chi) means universal control. See glossary for further information.
[4] From the perspective of the result, Complete Enlightenment (yuan jue) refers to the state
of Buddhahood. From the perspective of the path, where practice is still neccessary,
Complete Enlightenment refers to the state reached by bodhisattvas first bhumi and above.
From the perspective of the cause, it designates the perfection and completeness of Buddha-
nature intrinsic to all beings (yuan man xian cheng zhi fo xing).
[5] Ignorance (wu ming) is avidva in Sanskrit. See glossary for further information.
[6] The four great elements (si da) are: earth, water, fire, and wind. Together, they constitute
the physical body of a living human being.
[7] Impressions (ying) may also be translated as reflections or shadows.
[8] Tathagatagarbha (ru lai zang) is synonymous with Buddha-nature (fo xing). See glossary
for further information.
~ The Sutra of Complete Enlightenment

(http://www.prajna.nl/teksten/onderricht/soetras/complete/)
Also, there are four errors that needs to be avoided --
quote:
Virtuous man, the wondrous Dharma that is actualized by this good teacher should be free
from four kinds of faults.
What are these four faults?
The first is the fault of contrivance. If a man says: I exert myself in all kinds of practices
based on my intrinsic [pure] mind in order to seek Complete Enlightenment, this is a fault,
because the nature of Complete Enlightenment is not attained by contrivance.
The second is the fault of allowing things to be as they are. If a man says: I neither wish to
sever birth and death nor seek nirvana. There are no conceptions of samsara and nirvana as
truly arising or perishing. I allow everything to take its course with the various natures of
dharmas in my quest for Complete Enlightenment, this is a fault, because the nature of
Complete Enlightenment does not come about through accepting things as they are.
The third is the fault of stopping. If a man says: In my quest for Complete Enlightenment, if
I permanently stop my mind from having any thoughts, then I will attain the quiescence and
equality of the nature of all [dharmas], this is a fault, because the nature of Complete
Enlightenment does not conform with the stopping of thoughts.
The fourth is the fault of annihilation. If a man says: In my quest for Complete
Enlightenment, if I permanently annihilate all vexations, then my body and mind, not to
mention the illusory realms of sense faculties and dust, will ultimately be emptiness and utter
nothingness. Everything will be [in the state of] eternal quiescence, this is a fault, because
the nature of Complete Enlightenment is not annihilation.
One who is free from these four faults will know purity. To discern these faults is to have
the right discernment. To have other discernments than these is called erroneous discernment.
~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
quote:

Here are some quotes by Nathan Gill:
non-dual aspect.
Yes JonLS,
I am particularly keen on those articles written by Tony Parson and Nathan Gill after both
you and AEN introduced me their websites. Thank you.
Many sites I see are full of duality. Thorough non-duality or no-self experience is rare. It will
be great if they can describe what the waking state is like after non-dual is experienced in all
three states.
As Nathan Gill mentioned "not a prescription for oneness - it's a description of it." Just
description.
PS: I have searched for years and only to find a sutra in buddhism describe it. It is the
lankavatara sutra. But u may not like it...
Lastly JonLS,
Don't think linear and don't limit our nature to locality. All are artificial boundaries. The
momentum has conditioned our intrinsic nature the physical limitations, a boxed-up
experience. A moment of manifestation need not be so; our emptiness nature is non-local.
quote:

Lastly JonLS,
Don't think linear and don't limit our nature to locality. All are artificial boundaries.
The momentum has conditioned our intrinsic nature the physical limitations, a
boxed-up experience. A moment of manifestation need not be so; our emptiness nature
is non-local.
This sounds very good to me Thusness.

P.S.
Give me a link to the lankavatara sutra if you can.

There are many repetitions and buddhist jargons. Don't get bored
First 2 chapters of lankavatara sutra:

http://www.beezone.com/lankavatara.html
There is one version that gives short but quite good commentary. I supposed the the website
is down but a cache version can be found at the following url:
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:YL6edRjUdtQJ:www.buddhistinformation.com/lankava
tara_sutra.htm+lankavatara+sutra&hl=en&gl=sg&ct=clnk&cd=1
quote:

There are many repetitions and buddhist jargons. Don't get bored
First 2 chapters of lankavatara sutra:

http://www.beezone.com/lankavatara.html
There is one version that gives short but quite good commentary. I supposed the the
website is down but a cache version can be found at the following url:
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:YL6edRjUdtQJ:www.buddhistinformation.com/la
nkavatara_sutra.htm+lankavatara+sutra&hl=en&gl=sg&ct=clnk&cd=1
The full version of the sutra is here, http://www.lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm
But I read the 'BIONA' version which you said was a 'commentary' but actually isn't a
commentary. It is just a shortened version of the full sutra. I didn't read the full sutra as it was
very long.. so I read the biona version.
(the commentary is here instead,

http://web.archive.org/web/20060205092157/http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dream_w
orld_ch_1.htm)
Forum Topic: Suzanne Segal

Have any of you heard the story of Suzanne Segal?
If you have a few minutes, do visit the link below, it may be a worthwhile visit!
http://www.nonduality.com/suzanne.htm
If someone draws a line in the thin air and is able to plant a seed into a lay persons inmost
consciousness that he cant go beyond this line, that lay person will feel that the so called
imaginary boundary is as solid as a physical wall. The way we are bonded to dualistic
view of a Self is similar. A strong sense of Witnessing Presence without going beyond that
"invisible line" is not the experience of no-self in buddhism and therefore I would not call
her experience an insight into no-self. The negative experiences she had seem more like
very strong self/Self propensities, it is a form of split, a separation.
Staying in no-self is to be fully authenticated by all things and as all things. Fear arises
because of this lack of authentication. She sank too deeply into the 'content'. This is the case
of "dark nights" where propensities rushed into manifestations. Her attempt to reason herself
out will not work. Logical reasoning cannot break that 'bond' and she just couldn't help
reacting to it.
One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before
"content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter
this problem.
In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is
replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experience
(clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second,
the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in
appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of
liberation as that boundary, that separation dissapeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in
the experience of no-self.
quote:
In true no-self experience, the first aspect is the cognitive mind loses its charm and is
replaced with intuitive and direct experience. Only the qualities of our nature are experience
(clarity, radiance, presence and vitality), nothing about symbols, labels and content. Second,
the illusionary view of a "Self' on top of manifestation is dissolved; There is complete rest in
appearance. Nothing needs be done and therefore there can only be the experience of
liberation as that boundary, that separation dissapeared. Nothing is obstructing anything in
the experience of no-self.
This sounds very good to me, thank you.
quote:
One way out is to practice and develop the mental habit of "dissolving" every moment before
"content" arise. The mental habit of dissolving will become a strength of it own to counter
this problem.
Can you explain more about the mental habit of dissolving every moment before content
arises.
This reminds of something I read about the content of the present moment needing to
rematerialize over and over again.
Forum Topic: Original innocence and absolute truth
The absolute truth is that the present moment is.
This is your true nature, the isness of everything.
Your true nature or absolute truth is also totally empty because everything arises out of
nothing.
So your true nature is total emptyness but also complete fullness because your true nature, the
present moment, encompasses everything.
Now, let's talk about relative truth.
Relative truth exists on the level of concepts or ideas.
It exists on the level of the mind.
So this is where original sin and original innocence belongs, as a relative truth, not an
absolute truth.
For their are no concepts (ideas) in absolute truth.
Original sin is (the mind) grasping or identifying with ideas or thoughts.
And of course the main idea that is grasped is that I am a separate individual from the rest of
the world, and therefore so are you.
When you believe that thought, then you look at the world in a peculiar kind of way. Because
everything you see in the world, you either need to have it or own it, or you need to protect
yourself from it.
Original innocence is a quiet mind that is not grasping onto ideas anymore.
Original innocence looks and sees everything without interpretation, without separation.
In original innocence you love your neighbour as yourself because you see your neighbour is
yourself.
All is One.
Yes JonLS.
Perception is formed when identification is made and a moment of experience is being

assigned a label. Consciousness becomes a stream of perceptions.
In a state of continuous bare experience, neither is there an external world out there nor an
internal world in here taking place within consciousness. Without symbols, there is no
layering and nothing to divide. In direct experience, everything is really it!
However there is another aspect of consciousness, it is its incessant habit of recording. This
aspect has profound implication on our daily experiences. Even after the experience of no-
self, a mind is not free from the imprints of physical limitations. Just like science needs
highly precise equipment to penetrate and understand the quantum behavior of sub-atomic
particles, sharp and deep clarity is necessary to experience out-of-the-box of our emptiness
nature, the propensities must subside to a great degree.
To have a full picture of pure pristine nature, the luminous radiance, the workings of
propensities and our emptiness nature must all be experienced.
quote:

Yes JonLS.
Perception is formed when identification is made and a moment of experience is being

assigned a label. Consciousness becomes a stream of perceptions.
In a state of continuous bare experience, neither is there an external world out there nor
an internal world in here taking place within consciousness. Without symbols, there is
no layering and nothing to divide. In direct experience, everything is really it!
However there is another aspect of consciousness, it is its incessant habit of recording.

This aspect has profound implication on our daily experiences. Even after the
experience of no-self, a mind is not free from the imprints of physical limitations. Just
like science needs highly precise equipment to penetrate and understand the quantum
behavior of sub-atomic particles, sharp and deep clarity is necessary to experience out-
of-the-box of our emptiness nature, the propensities must subside to a great degree.
To have a full picture of pure pristine nature, the luminous radiance, the workings of
propensities and our emptiness nature must all be experienced.
Thank you for these words Thusness, they have penetrated very deeply because, on some
level, they are recognized.
An innocent mind
In the sense of original innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is
quiescent (quiet, still, surrendered).
This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's true nature.
It is no longer making efforts to "know" or "understand" something.
Instead, there is resting in one's true nature, in being.
This is about letting go of the need to know.
And trusting.
And just being.
True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance.

quote:

An innocent mind
In the sense of original innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is
quiescent (quiet, still, surrendered).
This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's true nature.
It is no longer making efforts to "know" or "understand" something.
Instead, there is resting in one's true nature, in being.
This is about letting go of the need to know.
And trusting.
And just being.
True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance.
To find one that can completely surrender and totally be is extremely rare. Not even one in
millions. Yet in deep sleep, all has to let go. How can one be denied such a precious state of
beingness.
For a person that has experienced no-self (non-duality), deep sleep is even more important. It
is the completion of a full cycle of non-duality and natural beingness.
But this may not be the case for one that clings to the "Eternal Witnessing". There is a very
subtle holding in them for mantaining this witnessing subconciously thereby denying them
from naturally going into deep sleep. If it reaches a point that presents itself as a problem, it is
a signal to the practitioner that it is time to let go and dissolve the holding of the Witness, the
center. It will be tough to simply try just "let go" of the center and if this is the case, an
insight into our "emptiness nature" may help.
Only after going through a full cycle of natural non-duality and beingness in all three states
will a practitioner sleep be shorten. I called this the second cycle of non-duality.
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for that reply.
There is something else I would like to share with you.
There is an experience that is ongoing.
It involves the center of my being.
The center of my being opens up and an energy comes flooding in (arises).
This energy is pure, it is undifferienciated, it is pure consciousness, pure isness.
It is breaking through the dream of "my life" as a separate "person" in time.
It is pure isness.
Bringing me back to the present moment.
All else is just appearance.
All else is just a dream, just manifestation.
Do you recognize what I am saying?

quote:

Hi Thusness,
Thank you for that reply.
There is something else I would like to share with you.
There is an experience that is ongoing.
It involves the center of my being.
The center of my being opens up and an energy comes flooding in (arises).

This energy is pure, it is undifferienciated, it is pure consciousness, pure isness.
It is breaking through the dream of "my life" as a separate "person" in time.
It is pure isness.
Bringing me back to the present moment.
All else is just appearance.
All else is just a dream, just manifestation.
Do you recognize what I am saying?
Yes JonLS, I know what you meant. It is also this vitality aspect of Presence that took over
the main role during deep sleep. For me it has been ongoing till now, powerfully presence.
When the mind is not making interpretations and the pure energy felt directly in its raw state,
it is felt as vibrational, continuously dancing. In a pool of saliva, at the back of forehead, at
crown center, on top of your head, tongue, all cells seem dancing vibrantly everywhere. It is
as if you have touched 'pure life' and brings whatever in contact to life. The 'beingness' is
charged powerfully by this vitality. It forms part of the clarity, bliss and joy. It is one of
the core aspects of Presence, not just the knowingness. When the aspects of clear
knowingness, vitality and self propensity are fused, Presence is shaped and seemed to come
from a 'center', that 'center' in actual case it is rather a sensation of a 'mysterious depth', it
should not be localized. Drop that center, allow the flow to arise from the mysterious deep
of nowhere, from the beingness of the arising phenomena itself, no attempt is made to sink
back to a center; there is no need to; it connects All.
ps: knowingness and vitality cannot be separated, it is for discussion sake that i separate
them.

Hi JonLS,
There is nothing wrong with the Isness experienced as I AM except that it is skewed
towards the thought realm. The cognitive mind is overwhelmed by the transcendental
experience and wants to monopolize the entirety of Presence. As such the purity is distorted.
Full and equal authentication of Isness as experienced in I AM must also be fully
experienced in all appearance and to all moments of manifestation. When the center is
dissolved, no preference can be made between Amness and Appearances, nothing can be
more clear, All is it!
Thank you for your wonderful replies Thusness,
quote:
Presence is shaped and seemed to come from a 'center', that 'center' in actual case it is rather a
sensation of a 'mysterious depth', it should not be localized.
Yes, this feels right to me.
I use the term "center of my being" because Eckhart used the phrase "the opening of the inner
dimension", he said it is in the center of your body.
It does seem to come from there, but I am also aware that it does not appear or feel to be from
this dimension of time and space.
quote:
There is nothing wrong with the Isness experienced as I AM except that it is skewed
towards the thought realm. The cognitive mind is overwhelmed by the transcendental
experience and wants to monopolize the entirety of Presence. As such the purity is distorted.
Yes, I notice the mind is quite active during the experience, always trying to interpret what is
happening.
quote:
Full and equal authentication of Isness as experienced in I AM must also be fully

experienced in all appearance and to all moments of manifestation. When the center is
dissolved, no preference can be made between Amness and Appearances, nothing can be
more clear, All is it!
I know what you are saying here!
I have experienced, for more than a day, the fact that all there was, was the appearance and
that's all of it!
It is one complete whole!
quote:
I know what you are saying here!
I have experienced, for more than a day, the fact that all there was, was the appearance
and that's all of it!
It is one complete whole!
Yes!
By the way, over the years I have refined the term "naturalness" into "spontaneously arise due
to conditions". When condition is, Presence Is. Not bounded within a space-time continuum.
It helps to dissolve the centricity. See whether it syncs in you...
quote:

By the way, over the years I have refined the term "naturalness" into "spontaneously
arise due to conditions". When condition is, Presence Is. Not bounded within a space-
time continuum. It helps to dissolve the centricity. See whether it syncs in you...
In my experience, Presence is stronger at some times than at other times, and in this sense, it
is spontaneously arising.
However I'm not aware of any conditions necessary for Presence.
Having said that, when Presence is strong the thoughts and egoic feelings are not present, or
at least they are very weak and in the background. Are these the conditions?
Hi JonLS,
Dwell a lil on religion :
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the
diversities of appearances? Sweetness of sugar isnt the blueness color of the sky. Same
applies to AMness all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only
condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their forms. In Buddhism,
pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
Although there is non-dual in Adviata and no-self in Buddhism, Adviata rest in an Ultimate
Background (making it dualistic ), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background
completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where
pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless
as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no
changing thing, only change.
JonLS: 13 April 2007 03:04 AM
quote:
Personally, I have learnt that all IS.
Every moment is as it IS. There can never be a moment that is not as it is.
Isness has a crystal aliveness... clear, joyful and spontaneously manifesting.
Look! See! Isness is always there... but it has been hijacked by 'sense of self'.... or the stream
of preferences we call self or soul. Even self and soul IS. ~ Longchen
My own experience is that I've found that the Isness of the present moment is It.
There is nothing needed beyond this.
Rest in just "this".
I open myself up to the vastness that is this present moment.

Before I was involved in a story of becoming, of needing to know, of needing something

other than what is arising in this present moment.
But now I realize that, in my essence, I am this present moment including the emptiness out
of which it arises and all appearances also.
It all emanates somewhere from within my gut area.

quote:

Before I was involved in a story of becoming, of needing to know, of needing something
other than what is arising in this present moment.
But now I realize that, in my essence, I am this present moment including the emptiness
out of which it arises and all appearances also.
It all emanates somewhere from within my gut area.
'Now' is an impression. 'Here' is an impression. The 'place where it emanates' is also an

impression. If we attempt to find a 'where', we are reacting to our dualistic momentum. This
will create a 'split' and the sense of self will arise.
Isness is the vivid and crystal clarity of a moment of phenomenal manifestation. It is

awareness as 'things' and awareness as 'forms'. All of what awareness is, is the phenomenal
manifestation right there and then and it subsides instantaneously. If the 'sense of self' as a
background, as body and as momentum hasn't dissolved thoroughly, there will be vagueness
in the experience of Isness and the timelessness of an instant will not be appreciated.
quote:
My own experience is that I've found that the Isness of the present moment is It.
There is nothing needed beyond this.
Rest in just "this".
I open myself up to the vastness that is this present moment.
Yes there is no beyond and everything is merely 'This'. When we tok about awareness it has
to be only One, this is what Awareness is and it has to be so, non-dual by nature. Therefore
opening up is to give up all and everything relating to 'self'. No-self and just 'the everything',
clarity and Self is an inverse relationship. The mathematical formula for it:
Clarity = 1/Self
Many advaita masters have advised ppl to experience the 'Self' but the essence of liberation is
not in experiencing the Self. One can experience the I AMness, the pure sense of
existence a million times yet does not help in any aspect of enlightenment regardless of how
mystical and transcendental the experience can be.
More harms are done if such experience enhanced our dualistic thought. In fact the wrong
conclusion that awareness is a changeless, permanent entity is the result of distorting a non-
dual experience due to the inability of our mind to go beyond its habitual dualistic thinking
mechanism. When the dualistic mind attempts to understand this experience, it projects this
Self as the background to fit the non-dual experience into its dualistic framework. Such
experience cannot lead to liberation because it is dualistic in nature. Any form of separation is
non-liberating.
Therefore emphasis must be placed correctly on the 'no-self' aspect of awareness. Awareness
is by nature non-dual. Being non-dual it is impermanent, ceaselessly and spontaneously
manifesting as All. This is the clarity that must come from direct experience. There is no
compromise regarding these aspects of our pristine nature. It must be thoroughly clear to
experience the self-liberating nature of awareness.
quote:
'Now' is an impression. 'Here' is an impression. The 'place where it emanates' is also an

impression. If we attempt to find a 'where', we are reacting to our dualistic momentum.
This will create a 'split' and the sense of self will arise.
Isness is the vivid and crystal clarity of a moment of phenomenal manifestation. It is

awareness as 'things' and awareness as 'forms'. All of what awareness is, is the
phenomenal manifestation right there and then and it subsides instantaneously. If the
'sense of self' as a background, as body and as momentum hasn't dissolved thoroughly,
there will be vagueness in the experience of Isness and the timelessness of an instant will
not be appreciated.
Reminds me of Longchen's article:
quote:
http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-experience.html
How is Non-duality like?
Non duality is really the same experience as no-self state. It is also the same as no subject-
object split. 'No subject-object split' means the illusion of an observer and the being observed
is being understood and removed.
Below is a description of how non-duality feels like.
I have noticed that non-duality (or non dual experience) has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and this give rise to different
degrees of vividness and sense of Oneness.
At times, sense of being at a location can be greatly diminished... instead what is being
felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth, 'here-ness' is really
made up of perceptions and sensations... For example, the sensations of pressure of the
feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions
and hearing and so on so forth are just that.
For in truth, 'location-space', 'individuality-self', ' inner-outer', etc are impressions.
There is also a spacious or all-pervading quality to the experience of non-duality and this is
what was meant as a sense of Oneness. At times, objects and surroundings can be 'de-
cognated' ( that is ... freed from being perceived as such) and a free-ing joyful and vitalising
feeling can be felt. This feels like the mind has finally comes to a must-needed rest from its
incessant mental activities.
Also, in the deeper range of non duality, brightness becomes stronger. This brightness is the
result of mind's deconstruction which allows for intense penetration into consciousness. The
Brightness can be so intense that it is truly stunning.
Please understand that all along our existence has been non-dual. There is no attaining to non-
duality... It is only the 'sense of self' that created the impression of duality. Even when the
'sense of self' is there, existence is still non-dual. We never live out of non-duality.
Also, there is another point to add...
Non-duality is NOT the same as a state of Witnessing Presence observing Phenomenality. An

Eternal Witnessing Presence that is apart from Phenomena cannot be said to be non dual as
there are two components here (witness and phenomena). This experience is characterised by
a non-judging watcher observing the world and mind. I had this experience before. And now,
I must say that true non-duality is distinctively different from this. The witness/watcher is
really not separated from the rest of the world . It (this witness) is not unchanging, but is
simply a knowingness that is not apart from the flow of phenomenality.
Non duality can only be stably experienced when the 'sense of self' and the 'Eternal Witness'
are correctly understood for what they are.
For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

quote:
http://www.dreamdatum.com/nondual-experience.html
How is Non-duality like?
Yes the non-dual article longchen wrote is of very good quality. Unfortunately not all can
appreciate the essence of it.
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for your great replies.

I must admit I don't understand some of what you posted.
But as I was reading your answers I was too peaceful to care.
The point is, I suppose, I would rather just "be" than continue looking for something.
quote:

Hi Thusness,
Thank you for your great replies.
I must admit I don't understand some of what you posted.
But as I was reading your answers I was too peaceful to care.
The point is, I suppose, I would rather just "be" than continue looking for something.
The sensation of Isness 'as it is' is a feeling of clarity. It is an expression that the mind is not
adding or subtracting anything from that clarity. But in most cases, Isness is to some extend
very much mixed up with thoughts (dualistic). There are varying degree of clarity to this
experience of Isness.
There will come a time where the mind/body just dropped completely. There is absolutely no
sensation of a background and a body. Then the vividness and clarity is only just the 'things'
as the layering that divides disappear.
If the mind/body drop-experience is stabilized, all experiences become shifted to the

experience of awareness as 'Forms'. Seeing it as the 'Things', as everything. Experiencing
Awareness is the same as experiencing the crystal clarity of 'things'. As long as there is
'things', existence, awareness IS. Awareness, IS and 'Things' are One. If this experience is
stabilized, there is really no need to find 'where' it emanates from since everywhere merely
IS. If the center is truly gone, emanation is right at the 'sound' heard, there and then. So we
felt a center, a place, what we are feeling is an impression that is thought-bound. It is
really the feeling of the idea in a more subtle form rather than awareness in its nakedness.
Next when the mind is free of definitions and symbols, it loses all its 'quantitative'
characteristics. Eternality for example, is not an endless duration from past to future; instead
it is right in/at this instant; how deep, beautiful, real and clear it is in this instantaneous
moment. All attributes (Realness, Luminosity, Unborn, Uncreated...etc) of Awareness are
manifested instantly. How much we know about our pristine Awareness is determined by the
quality of this moment of experience. In Buddhism it is what can be experienced in a speck of
dust and all these have to do with the thoroughness of dropping the 'Self', every aspect of the
'Self' (as a container, as body, as habitual momentum). Do not place any limit on the
experience of 'Isness', there is no depth to it...
JonLS: 16 April 2007 03:04 PM
quote:
The sensation of Isness 'as it is' is a feeling of clarity. It is an expression that the mind is not
adding or subtracting anything from that clarity. But in most cases, Isness is to some extend
very much mixed up with thoughts (dualistic). There are varying degree of clarity to this
experience of Isness.
There will come a time where the mind/body just dropped completely. There is absolutely no
sensation of a background and a body. Then the vividness and clarity is only just the 'things'
as the layering that divides disappear.
If the mind/body drop-experience is stabilized, all experiences become shifted to the

experience of awareness as 'Forms'. Seeing it as the 'Things', as everything. Experiencing
Awareness is the same as experiencing the crystal clarity of 'things'. As long as there is
'things', existence, awareness IS. Awareness, IS and 'Things' are One. If this experience is
stabilized, there is really no need to find 'where' it emanates from since everywhere merely
IS. If the center is truly gone, emanation is right at the 'sound' heard, there and then. So we
felt a center, a place, what we are feeling is an impression that is thought-bound. It is
really the feeling of the idea in a more subtle form rather than awareness in its nakedness.
Next when the mind is free of definitions and symbols, it loses all its 'quantitative'
characteristics. Eternality for example, is not an endless duration from past to future; instead
it is right in/at this instant; how deep, beautiful, real and clear it is in this instantaneous
moment. All attributes (Realness, Luminosity, Unborn, Uncreated...etc) of Awareness are
manifested instantly. How much we know about our pristine Awareness is determined by the
quality of this moment of experience. In Buddhism it is what can be experienced in a speck of
dust and all these have to do with the thoroughness of dropping the 'Self', every aspect of the
'Self' (as a container, as body, as habitual momentum). Do not place any limit on the
experience of 'Isness', there is no depth to it...
Thanks Thusness for the beautiful post.
It all sounds and feels very right to me, especially the last sentence!
Forum Topic: Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?

I just suddenly thought of this. Could Net of Indra be a Mahayana metaphor for Dependant
Origination?
The Net of Indra: Visual Metaphor of Non-dualism & Emptiness
quote:
The metaphor of Indra's Jeweled Net is attributed to an ancient Buddhist named Tu-Shun
(557-640 B.C.E.) who asks us to envision a vast net that:
* at each juncture there lies a jewel;

* each jewel reflects all the other jewels in this cosmic matrix.
* Every jewel represents an individual life form, atom, cell or unit of consciousness.
* Each jewel, in turn, is intrinsically and intimately connected to all the others;
* thus, a change in one gem is reflected in all the others.
This last aspect of the jeweled net is explored in a question/answer dialog of teacher and
student in the Avatamsaka Sutra. In answer to the question: "how can all these jewels be
considered one jewel?" it is replied: "If you don't believe that one jewel...is all the
jewels...just put a dot on the jewel [in question]. When one jewel is dotted, there are dots on
all the jewels...Since there are dots on all the jewels...We know that all the jewels are one
jewel" ...".
The moral of Indra's net is that the compassionate and the constructive interventions a person
makes or does can produce a ripple effect of beneficial action that will reverberate throughout
the universe or until it plays out. By the same token you cannot damage one strand of the web
without damaging the others or setting off a cascade effect of destruction.
Source: Awakening 101

quote:
...One of the images used to illustrate the nature of reality as understood in Mahayana is The
Jewel Net of Indra. According to this image, all reality is to be understood on analogy with
Indra's Net. This net consists entirely of jewels. Each jewel reflects all of the other jewels,
and the existence of each jewel is wholly dependent on its reflection in all of the other jewels.
As such, all parts of reality are interdependent with each other, but even the most basic parts
of existence have no independent existence themselves. As such, to the degree that reality
takes form and appears to us, it is because the whole arises in an interdependent matrix of
parts to whole and of subject to object. But in the end, there is nothing (literally no-thing)
there to grasp....
Source: Sunyata ('Emptiness')
quote:
Compare the first picture with:
Computer model of early universe. Gravity arranges matter in thin filaments.

And dependent origination = no inherent existence = non locality, no arising, no ceasing, no
etc etc (see below)
And I find this article very good By the great Master Je Tsong Khapa
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/praise_of_buddha_shakyamuni_for_.htm
By Je Tsong Khapa
Last update: December 05 2000
Rsum
Note: "Relativity" here means "dependent origination", "not independent or absolute".
Relativity, dependent origination, is the key to the Buddha's teaching.
It is by directly seeing that everything is dependently originated that we can understand that
everything is empty of inherent existence. And it is by seeing that everything is empty of
inherent existence that we abandon all attachment or repulsion, the causes of all suffering.
Dependent origination and emptiness are seen as in opposition, as a duality.
But Emptiness is not in real opposition to dependent origination. One cannot exist without
the other. One implies the other. They are interdependent. They are not different, not
separate, but not the same.
They are two complementary skilful means. We need both together on the path.
Emptiness means freedom.
All views are flawed, not absolute, empty of inherent existence.
In Hinayana, dependent origination is taught to be a real thing, inherently existing. That is

seen as in opposition to emptiness. That is why they reject emptiness.
The things that are dependently originated do not inherently exist. The elements of
dependent origination are all empty of inherent existence. The causes, effects, and the
causality itself are all empty of inherent existence. That is why we say that dependent
origination is also empty. All of these should be seen as illusions. It is like a flow of
interdependence without anything substantial in it.
The Middle Way it proposes is "not accepting", "not rejecting" -- away from the extremes of
existence and non-existence, pointing to transcendence of all dualities
Among all the Buddhist teachings, those of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti are the best. They
explain the best the Middle Way away from all extremes.
Praise Of Buddha Shakyamuni For His Teaching Of Relativity

Reverence to the Guru Manjughosha!
Homage to that perfect Buddha,

The Supreme Philosopher,
Who taught us relativity
Free of detruction and creation,
Without annihilation and permanence,
With no coming and no going,
Neither unity nor plurality;
The quieting of fabrications,
The ultimate beatitude!
(i.e. The eight negations describing the true nature of things -- from the Karikas introduction:
1. they do not die -- not an act of cessation -- the non-ceasing
2. and are not born, -- not an arising -- the non-arising
3. they do not cease to be -- not an interruption -- the non-annihilation
4. and are not eternal, -- not a perpetuation -- the non-permanence
5. they are not the same -- not one thing -- the non-identity
6. and are not different, -- not many things -- the non-difference
7. they do not come -- not a going forth -- the non-appearance
8. and do not go. -- not an arrival -- the non-disappearance
continued in the website....

"Whatever depends on conditions,

That is empty of intrinsic reality!"
What method of good instructions is there,
More marvellous than this discovery?
(i.e. Once we see the dependent origination, we do not believe in inherent existence anymore;
and that is final, permanent. Everything that is dependently originated is necessarely
empty of inherent existence. "Dependent origination" implies "emptiness". -- And vice
versa. One cannot exist without the other. They are two interdependent concepts. They
are not different or separate, but not the same.)
----
All along I knew interdependent origination but somehow I think this statement is becoming
more clear to me now.
quote:
And dependent origination = no inherent existence = non locality, no arising, no ceasing,
no etc etc (see below)
Where is the part on non-locality?

An Eternal Now: 12 October 2006 01:22 AM
quote:
Where is the part on non-locality?
Sorry its not from that website.. I added that part
Non-local because nothing is caused by an agent, nothing is independant or isolated, but

rather interdependently arisen like the net of indra. As such there is no 'point of origination'.
Also I think the conventional way of understanding causality as one thing causing another is
also not relevant at a higher level.. am I right to say that? As causality is also empty of
inherent existence...
Just remembered I posted something on this in the Holographic Universe topic I think..
http://www.heartspace.org/misc/IndraNet.html
4. Non-locality
Indra's Net shoots holes in the assumption or imputation of a solid and fixed universe 'out
there'. The capacity of one jewel to reflect the light of another jewel from the other edge of
infinity is something that is difficult for the linear mind, rational mind to comprehend. The
fact that all nodes are simply reflections indicates that there is no particular single source
point from where it all arises.
Just found an article. This article supports that Net of Indra is the Mahayana way of
understanding Dependent Origination. It seems that Mahayana is more heavy on the
'metaphysical side' of dependent origination, stressing that dependent origination is about
emptiness nature.
quote:
http://www.purifymind.com/SunyataEmp.htm
Sunyata ("Emptiness" . The Mahayana tradition has put a special emphasis on sunyata. This
was necessary, in part, because of the tendency among certain early Buddhist schools to
assert that there were aspects of reality that were not sunya, but which had inherent in them
their "own-being". Several important Buddhist philosophers dismantled these theories by
arguing for the pervasiveness of sunyata in every aspect of reality. (Nagarjuna was among the
most important of these.) The specific arguments are too complicated for us to deal with here.
But it is important to appreciate that understanding absolutely everything as sunya could
imply that even those things most revered by Buddhists (such as the arhant ideal and the rules
laid down in the vinaya) were empty. Mahayanists tended to argue that members of the
Hinayana traditions were attached to their ideal forms as if they were not sunya.
To some extent, sunyata is an extension of the concepts made explicit in the 3 Flaws. All
things being impermanant, nothing can be seen as having an independent, lasting form of
existence. And this is, in essence, what sunyata is all about. Strictly speaking, sunyata can be
defined as "not svabhava". The concept svabhava means "own being", and means something
like "substance" or "essence" in Western philosophy. Svabhava has to do with the notion that
there is a form of being which "is" and "exists" in a form that is not dependent on context, is
not subject to variation, and has a form of permanent existence. As such, the "soul" as
understood in Abrahamic religions would have svabhava. God would certainly have
svabhava. The Platonic forms (such as those described in the allegory of the Cave) would
have svabhava.. Certain abhidharma teachings conclude that the building blocks of reality
have such svabhava. But Mahayana philosophers like Nagarjuna concluded that sunyata is
the fundamental characteristic of reality, and that svabhava could be found absolutely
nowhere.
One of the images used to illustrate the nature of reality as understood in Mahayana is The
there to grasp.
Pratitya-samutpada ("Dependent Co-arising" . The flip side of sunyata is pratitya

samutpada. They are two sides of the same coin. They mean the same thing, but from two
different perspectives. To the extent that sunyata is a negative concept (i.e., not svabhava),
pratitya-samutpada is the positive counterpart. Pratitya-samutpada is an attempt to
conceptualize the nature of the world as it appears to us, not (as with sunyata) by saying what
the world is not, but by characterizing what is. I would say that pratitya-samutpada is
probably just about my favorite religious-philosophical concept from within the traditions of
the world. It is wonderfully subtle, and Buddhist philosophers have developed it beautifully.
As mentioned above, this concept is understood in two quite different ways in Theravada and
Mahayana thought. In Theravada dependent co-arising (usually designated by its form in Pali,
paticca-samuppada) is understood as a logical-causal chain which illustrates in a linear
fashion the preconditions of suffering that can be analyzed and eliminated according to a
strictly codified pattern of behavior. In Mahayana, on the other hand, which emphasizes the
emptiness of things, dependent co-arising as a concept is used to clarify the nature of sunyata
by showing that all things that appear to have independent, permanent existence are really the
product of many forces interacting. Thus, in Mahayana it is stressed that all things are
dependently co-arisen, because their seemingly independent existence really depends on the
coming together simultaneously (the co-arising) of the various parts and forces that go into
making them up. As such, pratitya-samutpada is more a metaphysical concept in Mahayana,
and it is nonlinear inasmuch as it attempts to picture a universe in which all things are
inextricably linked in a cosmic wholeness that cannot be unwoven into independent threads
or pieces.
One illustration of sunyata and pratitya-samutpada is the Jewel Net of Indra (see above).
Another is a rainbow. We know that a rainbow is real in some sense, because we can see it,
locate it, measure it, and so forth. However, it is also clear that a rainbow is no "thing", but
rather the product of various forces interacting as sunlight shines through an atmosphere that
has water droplets in suspension. Mahayana thinkers have asserted that all phenomena,
including especially individual human beings, are like this, inasmuch as it is impossible to
locate any basic particle or entity that is dependent in no way for its definition and existence
on the relationship that it has to other things. All things are, therefore, "empty" and
"dependently co-arisen".
Many great Buddhist philosophers have thought through with great care the nature of
shunyata and pratitya-samutpada. This is but a simple illustration of much more complex
reasoning, such as that found in the writings of Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, and other subtle
thinkers. (See Smith, 82-112. See also Paul Ingram. 1990. "Nature's Jeweled Net: Kukai's
Ecological Buddhism" on Electronic Reserve. )
It may seem that the articulation of such ideas "tends not to edification", or that it resembles
absurd philosophical speculation such as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
However, the study of these (and other) philosophical concepts has typically been linked with
practices that train Buddhists to release themselves from attachment to or striving after
"things" that might seem to offer some lasting sort of satisfaction. One of the most basic
forms of attachment is the mind's tendency to grasp after objects of thought and perception as
real (i.e., as having svabhava), and this tendency is reinforced in ideas that we have about the
world. The use of philosophical reasoning to deconstruct such misconceptions (as they are
understood within Buddhism) is a powerful vehicle for eliminating seeds that can eventually
grow into very serious obstacles in one's orientation to the world.
Among the most important applications of these ideas with Mahayana has been to expose the
emptiness and the co-dependently arisen qualities of even Buddhism itself. Mahayana claims
itself to be an important vehicle to liberation, but it also points to its own provisional
character. Mahayana does not see itself as an end, but as means to an end. That end is
liberation, enlightenment, and an end to suffering. However, as with all religions, there is a
tendency for the religion to reinforce itself as real, as an end in itself, within the minds of its
adherents. The philosophical traditions of emptiness and dependent co-origination are
important correctives to this tendency. There is an important saying within Zen: "If you meet
the Buddha on the road, kill him." When people come to see the Buddha as a being to be
revered merely for the sake of piety itself, or when Buddhism itself becomes the chief focus
of its practitioners, then it is time to "kill the Buddha", to point to the emptiness and
provisional quality of Buddhism itself.
quote:

Just found an article. This article supports that Net of Indra is the Mahayana way of
understanding Dependent Origination. It seems that Mahayana is more heavy on the
'metaphysical side' of dependent origination, stressing that dependent origination is
about emptiness nature.
Not bad but when studying DO or Emptiness, try not to not make it too mechanical. When we
say Reality, what exactly is the Reality we are toking about? Leave out the ultimate nature of
reality first.
Quote:

4. Non-locality
Indra's Net shoots holes in the assumption or imputation of a solid and fixed universe 'out
there'. The capacity of one jewel to reflect the light of another jewel from the other edge of
infinity is something that is difficult for the linear mind, rational mind to comprehend. The
fact that all nodes are simply reflections indicates that there is no particular single source
point from where it all arises.
What is this "it"?

quote:
Not bad but when studying DO or Emptiness, try not to not make it too mechanical.
When we say Reality, what exactly is the Reality we are toking about? Leave out the
ultimate nature of reality first.
Awareness?
quote:

Awareness?
And what has DO and Emptiness got to do with this Awareness?

I think a few weeks ago I shared something Dharma Dan wrote with Thusness and he said
that it is in fact the beginning of experiencing stage 6/dependent co-arising/emptiness.
(Readers who have no idea what is stage 6 should read about Thusness's six stages of
insights/experiences,
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722&page=3)
quote:
Reality can now be perceived with great breadth, precision, and clarity, and soon with
no special effort. This is called High Equanimity. Vibrations may become
predominant, and reality may become nothing but vibrations. Vibrating formless
realms may even arise, with no discernable image of the body being present at all.
Phenomena may even begin to lose the sense that they are of a particular sense door,
and mental and physical phenomena may appear nearly indistinguishably as just
vibrations of suchness, sometimes referred to as formations.
I put off writing about formations for a long time, as they are a conceptually difficult topic.
Further, the classical definition of formations is perhaps not so clear-cut, so I wondered about
imposing my own functional and experiential definitions on the term. However, as the topic
of formations has arisen in so many conversations recently, I thought that it would be worth
taking on despite the difficulties.
I am going to define formations as the primary experience of insight meditation when one is
solidly in the fourth vipassana jhana, the 11th ana, High Equanimity, whose formal title is
actually Knowledge of Equanimity Concerning Formations. For those of you who find this
circular definition completely unhelpful, formations have the following qualities when clearly
experienced:
They contain all the six sense doors in them, including thought, in a way that does not
split them up sequentially in time or positionally in space. If you could take a 3D moving
photograph that also captured smell, taste, touch, sound, and thought, all woven into
each other seamlessly and containing a sense of flux, this would approximate the
experience of one formation. From a fourth vipassana jhana point of view and from a
very high dharma point of view, formations are always what occur, and if they are not
clearly perceived then we experience reality the way we normally do.
They contain not only a complete set of aspects of all six sense doors within them, but
include the perception of space (volume) and even of time/movement within them.
When the fourth vipassana jhana is first attained, subtle mental sensations might
again split off from this side, much as in the way of the Knowledge of Mind and
Body, but with the Three Characteristics of phenomena and the space they are a part of
being breathtakingly clear. Until mental and physical sensations fully synchronize on
that side, there can be a bit of a tri-ality, in which there is the sense of the observer
on this side, and nearly the whole of body and mind as two fluxing entities over
there. As mental phenomena and physical phenomena gradually integrate with the
sense of luminous space, this experientially begs the question, What is observing
formations? at a level that is way beyond just talking about it. For you Khabbala
correspondance fans, these insights correspond to the the three points of Binah, the two
points of Chockmah, and finally the single point of Kether.
Formations are so inclusive that they viscerally demonstrate what is pointed to by the
concept of no-self in a way that no other mode of experiencing reality can. As
formations become predominant, we are faced first with the question of which side of
the dualistic split we are on and then with the question of what is watching what earlier
appeared to be both sides. Just keep investigating in a natural and matter-of-fact way.
Let this profound dance unfold. If you have gotten to this point, you are extraordinarily
close and need to do very little but relax and be gently curious about your experience.
When experienced at very high levels of concentration, formations lose the sense that
they were even formed of experiences from distinguishable sense doors. This is hard to
describe, but one might try such nebulous phrases as, waves of suchness, or primal,
undifferentiated experience. This is largely an artifact of experiencing formations high
up in the byproducts of the fourth vipassana jhana, i.e. the first three formless realms.
This aspect of how formations may be experienced is not necessary for the discussions
below.
(continued)
quote:
It is the highly inclusive quality of formations that is the most interesting, and leads to
the most practical application of discussing formations. It is because they are so
inclusive that they are the gateway to the Three Doors to stage 15. Fruition (see the
chapter called The Three Doors). They reveal a way out of the paradox of duality, the
maddening sense that this is observing/controlling/subject to/separated from/etc. a
that. By containing all or nearly all of the sensations comprising one moment in a
very integrated way, they contain the necessary clarity to see through the fundamental
illusions.
One of the primary ways that the illusion of duality is maintained is that the mind
partially blinks out for a part of each formation, the part it wants to section off to
appear separate. In this way, there is insufficient clarity to see the interconnectedness
and true nature of that part of reality, and a sense of a self is maintained. When the
experience of formations arises, it comes out of a level of clarity that is so complete that
this blinking can no longer easily occur. Thus, when formations become the dominant
experience, even for short periods of time, very profound and liberating insight is close
at hand. That is why there are systematic practices that train us to be very skilled in
being aware of our whole mental and physical existence. The more we practice being
aware of what happens, the less opportunities there are for blinking.
During the first three insight stages, we gained the ability to notice that mental and physical
sensations made up our world, how they interacted, and then began to see the truth of them.
We applied these skills to an object (perhaps not of our choice, but an object nonetheless),
and saw it as it actually was with a high degree of clarity in the A&P. By this point, these
skills in perceiving clearly have become so much of a part of who we are that they began to
apply themselves to the background, space and everything that seemed to be a reference point
or separate, permanent self as we entered the Dark Night. However, our objects may have
been quite vague or too disconcerting to have been perceived clearly. Finally, we get to
equanimity and put it all together: we can see the truth of our objects and of the whole
background and are OK with this, and the result is the perception of formations.
Formations contain within them the seeming gap between this and that, as well as
sensations of effort, intimacy, resistance, acceptance, and all other such aspects of
sensations from which a sense of self is more easily inferred. Thus, these aspects begin to
be seen in their proper place, their proper context, i.e. as an interdependent part of
reality, and not split off or a self.
Further, the level of clarity out of which formations arise also allows one to see formations
from the time they arise to the time they disappear, thus hitting directly at a sense of a self or
sensate universe continuing coherently in time. In the first part of the path the beginning of
objects was predominant. In the A&P we got a great sense of the middle of objects but
missed subtle aspects of the beginning and end. In the Dark Night the endings are about all
we could really perceive clearly. Formations once again put all of this work we have done
together in a very natural and complete way.
Formations also explain some of the odd teachings that you might hear about stopping
thought. There are three basic ways we might think about this dangerous ideal. We might
imagine a world in which the ordinary aspects of our world which we call thought simply
do not arise, a world of experience without those aspects of manifestation. You can get very
close to this in very strong concentration states, particularly the 8th samatha jhana. We might
also think of stopping experience entirely (as happens in Fruition), and this obviously
includes thought.
Formations point to yet another possible interpretation of the common wish to stop
thought, as do very high levels of realization. The seeming duality of mental and
physical sensations is gone by the time we are perceiving formations well. Thoughts
appear as one luminous aspect of the phenomenal world. In fact, I challenge anyone to
describe the bare experience of thinking or mental sensations in terms beyond those of
the five physical sense doors. Thus, in the face of experiencing formations, it seems
crude to speak in terms of thought as separate from those of visual, tactile, auditory,
gustatory, and olfactory qualities, or even to speak in terms of these being separate
entities.
When perceived clearly, what we usually call thoughts are seen to be just aspects of
the manifesting sensate world that we artificially select out and label as thought. Just as
it would be odd to imagine that an ocean with many shades of blue is really many little
bits of ocean, in times of high clarity it is obvious that there is manifesting reality, and it
is absolutely inclusive. Look at the space between you and this book. We dont go
around selecting out little bits of space and labeling them as separate. In the face of
formations, the same applies to experience, and experience obviously includes the
sensations we call thought.
Page 173~175, Master the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Dharma Dan

Wow....i missed this part. I read it a few tiems. It is really very very good. Superb!
Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked

Forum Topic:
Awareness
Note: Self-Liberationg through Seeing with Naked Awareness written by
Padmasambhava can be found in
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/self-liberation-through-
seeing-with.html
This is really good. Sure spell out the different subtle attachments.
It also in a way explain why there can so many different types of mystical or transcendental
experiences. All are but the various types of subtle attachments giving rise to different
understandings and experiences.
Thanks so much. It is helpful for me

quote:

This is really good. Sure spell out the different subtle attachments.
It also in a way explain why there can so many different types of mystical or
transcendental experiences. All are but the various types of subtle attachments giving
rise to different understandings and experiences.
Thanks so much. It is helpful for me
Hi Longchen,
Not only that. This work by Padmasambhava is truly deep and profound; it discloses the self-
liberating aspect of our intrinsic nature. It is especially important for you now.
At that time when you posted the thread of non-dual and karmic pattern,
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=225462, the condition is
only right for understanding 'the strength of karmic propensities, as such, this aspect was
not disclosed. Instead, the second door of impermanence was introduced and it was
introduced with the purpose to complement the no-self experience you had in order to give
rise to this insight of Self-Liberation. The sole purpose of the practice of the second door of
impermanence is for this insight to arise.
I was reading some commentaries about this work, I was disappointed; and with all due
respect, I must say it is terribly distorted. The commentator has transformed this great work
of Padmasambhava to an Advaita or neo-Advaita teaching. Self Liberating nature of our
pristine nature is not to posit naked-awareness as a background where all thoughts arise and
subside and the background is not affected by this transient nature of thoughts, it remains
constant, changeless and unmoved. Self liberation should never be taken to mean this.
There is no Awareness apart from the arising and ceasing of thoughts and yet thought
spontaneously arise and subsides in its own accord (self-liberating). It liberates at that very
moment of passing away (the practice of second door) without the need of effort, simply so.
From moment to moment it is so. Thus comes and thus goes. This is its emptiness nature. The
emptiness nature liberates instantaneously. By simply so, it is spontaneously self-perfected.
Sentient mind however posit a self and holds. Whether the thought is good or bad, it
attempts to do something to change, whatever direction it goes either good or bad, all is
doing (karma) and prevents the liberating nature. However without the experience of no-
self (Buddhism non-duality not Adviata non-dual), one can never understand this intuitively.
Do read with a reverent heart. Homage to Padmasambhava.
quote:
How can you say that you cannot find your own mind?
The mind is just that which is thinking:

(My opinion is it should be translated to The mind is just the thinking but I do not have the
original text.)
And yet, although you have searched (for the thinker), how can you say that you do not find
him?
With respect to this, nowhere does there exist the one who is the cause of (mental) activity.
And yet, since activity exists, how can you say that such activity does not arise?
Since merely allowing (thoughts) to settle into their own condition, without trying to modify
them in any way, is sufficient,
How can you say that you are not able to remain in a calm state?
Since allowing (thoughts) to be just as they are, with out trying to do anything about them, is
sufficient,
How can you say that you are not able to do anything with regard to them?
Since clarity, awareness, and emptiness are inseparable and are spontaneously self-perfected,
How can you say that nothing is accomplished by your practice?
Since (intrinsic awareness) is self-originated and spontaneously self-perfected without any

antecedent causes or conditions,
How can you say that you are not able to accomplish anything by your efforts?
Since the arising of discursive thoughts and their being liberated occur simultaneously,
How can you say that you are unable to apply an antidote?
Since your own immediate awareness is just this,
How can you say that you do not know anything with regard to it?
And
quote:
It is certain that all of the diverse characteristics of things are liberated into their own
condition,
Like clouds in the atmosphere that are self-originated and self-liberated.
You should look at your own mind to see whether it is like that or not.

quote:
Hi Longchen,
Not only that. This work by Padmasambhava is truly deep and profound; it discloses
the self-liberating aspect of our intrinsic nature. It is especially important for you now.
At that time when you posted the thread of non-dual and karmic pattern,
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=225462, the
condition is only right for understanding 'the strength of karmic propensities, as such,
this aspect was not disclosed. Instead, the second door of impermanence was introduced
and it was introduced with the purpose to complement the no-self experience you had in
order to give rise to this insight of Self-Liberation. The sole purpose of the practice of
the second door of impermanence is for this insight to arise.
I was reading some commentaries about this work, I was disappointed; and with all due
respect, I must say it is terribly distorted. The commentator has transformed this great
work of Padmasambhava to an Advaita or neo-Advaita teaching. Self Liberating nature
of our pristine nature is not to posit naked-awareness as a background where all
thoughts arise and subside and the background is not affected by this transient nature
of thoughts, it remains constant, changeless and unmoved. Self liberation should never
be taken to mean this.
There is no Awareness apart from the arising and ceasing of thoughts and yet thought
spontaneously arise and subsides in its own accord (self-liberating). It liberates at that
very moment of passing away (the practice of second door) without the need of effort,
simply so. From moment to moment it is so. Thus comes and thus goes. This is its
emptiness nature. The emptiness nature liberates instantaneously. By simply so, it is
spontaneously self-perfected.
Sentient mind however posit a self and holds. Whether the thought is good or bad, it
attempts to do something to change, whatever direction it goes either good or bad, all is
doing (karma) and prevents the liberating nature. However without the experience of
no-self (Buddhism non-duality not Adviata non-dual), one can never understand this
intuitively.
Do read with a reverent heart. Homage to Padmasambhava.
Hi Thusness,
I see.. Thanks.
I do find the impermanence door very helpful. No-self is easier for me to be now... however
the self-liberation aspect is still quite tricky. ..for me.
It is like what i have said before there is various depths to non-duality. There appears to be 2
distinct 'levels' of non-duality...to me.
In the first level, mental thoughts are still quite active. Here thoughts arises but there is no
thinker. Here no subject-object split is clearly understood.
And there is another distinct level that mental thoughts loses it attraction all together. In this
level, there feels like cognitions have been de-constructed. This is a blissful level and it feels
like resting on 'nothing'. But without the first level non-duality, the second level cannot be
moved into.
Anyway, these are just my experiences... Pls comment.
Thanks again.
quote:

I do find the impermanence door very helpful. No-self is easier for me to be now... however
the self-liberation aspect is still quite tricky. ..for me.
Yes, let the understanding takes its own course. It is similar to the case of non-dual where
there is a sudden 'insight' that there is really no-self and a sudden expansion of releasing takes
place on its own accord.
In fact practice now becomes moment to moment of meeting conditions and let arise of
whatever outcome. There is no choosing and grasping. The 'self-liberation is deeply felt and
thoroughly understood, not just a glimpse of the truth. I am still far from that. It is a path for
those with utmost sincerity. Not as excuse to laze idle.
quote:
It is like what i have said before there is various depths to non-duality. There appears to be 2
distinct 'levels' of non-duality...to me.
In the first level, mental thoughts are still quite active. Here thoughts arises but there is no
thinker. Here no subject-object split is clearly understood.
At this level there is the insight of no-self but momentum continues. However momentum
stops being re-enforced.
quote:
And there is another distinct level that mental thoughts loses it attraction all together. In this
level, there feels like cognitions have been de-constructed.
There are several reasons:
1. Here most of the propensities that resulted from holding to the illusion view of a
background begin to subside.
2. When background subsides, Natural awareness takes place and there is natural tendency to
feel everything directly, the burden is being more equally distributed to the rest of the five
senses instead of being skewed to just thinking alone.
3. A subtle insight is about to take place or has already taken place. It is the insight that
content is the problem of all problems. It is what that conjured out all sorts of illusions,
fears and worries.
4. The practice of the second door is gaining strength at the pre-conscious level.
quote:
This is a blissful level and it feels like resting on 'nothing'.
It is resting on nothing of content but it is resting on peace, clarity, blissfulness, vitality.

Here focus is gradually shifting from "content" of the mind to "qualities" of the mind. The
qualities of mind has nothing to do with "content".
quote:
But without the first level non-duality, the second level cannot be moved into.
This need not be the case. The first level of insight is more important from my point of
view. It is what that leads to Oneness. A person that practices mindfulness may enter the
second level u mentioned without first having that non-dual insight of the first level, this in
fact has been my case for many years. It is due to the ability to sustain for a prolong period of
bare attention or non-conceptuality. The understanding of no-self here can still remain as 'no-
personal self' or as a form of mirror bright clarity that is free of labels but the mirror still exist
in a dualistic form. In the second level, the sense of ego diminishes but the attachment of a
background is still strong and insight into "non-dual" has not really aroused.
Hi Thusness,
Wow... your explanation is so clear. Thanks so much
Indeed, i am beginning to realise that 'content' is a problem. And to be free of it's grasp is so
good.
quote:

Hi Thusness,
Wow... your explanation is so clear. Thanks so much
Indeed, i am beginning to realise that 'content' is a problem. And to be free of it's grasp
is so good.
Yes! But too instense practice can have its adverse effect too....hehehe ...stay away from it
for a while and after some time, it seems to become natural and everything becomes let be
before even 'content' arises
quote:
Yes! But too instense practice can have its adverse effect too....hehehe ...stay away
from it for a while and after some time, it seems to become natural and everything
becomes let be before even 'content' arises
Haha...I think i get what you meant. Thanks
Sinweiy: 01 February 2007 10:41 AM
quote:

Yes agreed In such cases, it could be that he is day dreaming and not paying attention, the
other case is Kong1 Ding4. Means the mind absorbs into a state of nothingness, but there is
no awareness at all. This kind of practise will never lead to liberation so we should avoid.
'Awareness' is important.[/b]
this link is excellent:
http://zen.extra.hu/ddgl.html
On The Meditation of Dharmadhatu by Master Tu Shun
/\
An Eternal Now: 06 February 2007 11:20 PM
quote:
this link is excellent:
http://zen.extra.hu/ddgl.html
[b]On The Meditation of Dharmadhatu by Master Tu Shun
/\
[/b]
Thanks Thusness said Master Tu Shun is great at expounding interdependent origination,

Avatamsaka principles and the Net of Indra.
edit: Funny thing is that I have been searching for "On The Meditation of Dharmadhatu" on
google to no avail yesterday, after Thusness told me Master Tu Shun wrote concisely with his
experience on luminosity and interdependence (although he didn't notice your link to Master
Tu Shun), then today suddenly I look at this thread then I realise it is already here
Forum Topic: Global warming and Earth changes

JonLS: 05 February 2007 12:54 PM
Can the answer to global warming really be found "out there" in the world?
Or is the problem originating from within?
quote:
From "A Course in Miracles"
How many people does it take to save the world.
Just one.
And that person is you.
JonLS: 06 February 2007 12:47 AM
Is global warming really a problem?
Or are we all under the hypnotic illusion of a collective thought called "global warming"?
Thusness: 06 February 2007 01:02 AM
quote:

Or are we all under the hypnotic illusion of a collective thought called "global
warming"?
Even the enlightened respects all illusions.

Longchen: 06 February 2007 11:25 AM
quote:

warming"?
Hmmm... although i have fully understood that existence is non-dual and can at times goes
into the bliss of no one, physical pain still hurts like hell.
I think we should not negate pain and suffering. For those who have suffered losses in the
recent floods, the pain is real.
The subject-object split is false... but the pain created
by causes and conditions is real.
quote:
Hmmm... although i have fully understood that existence is non-dual and can at times
goes into the bliss of no one, physical pain still hurts like hell.
I think we should not negate pain and suffering. For those who have suffered losses in
the recent floods, the pain is real.

And that is what non-dual is all about. There is no-self to obstruct the experience, it is as real
and as clear as it can be.
Side Message:
The deep dreamless sleep is a very precious state of being, a natural samadhi of its own, a
measure of accomplishment in the first complete cycle of non-dual. If conditions are
understood along with our pristine nature, all 3 states flow as a single whole.
quote:
quote:
warming"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm... although i have fully understood that existence is non-dual and can at times
goes into the bliss of no one, physical pain still hurts like hell.
I think we should not negate pain and suffering. For those who have suffered losses in
the recent floods, the pain is real.

The intent of the post was not to negate anything.
But to affirm that nothing is known, nothing is believed.
All I can really say is "I don't know if it's real or not".
There is a complete "not knowing" which feels like an emptyness in the mind.
No thoughts or beliefs that are being grasped.
However I do notice that I am in alignment in my behaviour with a "conserver" mentality,

nothing is wasted, energy is used sparingly etc...
quote:
And that is what non-dual is all about. There is no-self to obstruct the experience, it is as real
and as clear as it can be.
Yes, this sounds very good to me.

quote:

I know
quote:
It is this that I am referring. Not knowing should not immobilize "kwowingness".
quote:
Knowingness has no mine or I; a clarity is merely clarity of what is. I do not know
whether JonLS is at the other side responding is also buying into content to ascertain an
I-cognition experience. Just be authenticated that knowingness knows and always so.
Other than that is meddling of content to disturb that clarity.
JonLS: 07 February 2007 12:40 AM
quote:
Knowingness has no mine or I; a clarity is merely clarity of what is. I do not know
whether JonLS is at the other side responding is also buying into content to
ascertain an I-cognition experience. Just be authenticated that knowingness knows
and always so. Other than that is meddling of content to disturb that clarity.
This sounds very good to me.
Are you saying that "not knowing" is part of the "I-cognition"?
They appear to be on the same level to me, the level of form, of thought. (of needing to
know) (of grasping)
quote:
This sounds very good to me.
Are you saying that "not knowing" is part of the "I-cognition"?
They appear to be on the same level to me, the level of form, of thought. (of needing to
know) (of grasping)
Yes. The "I do not know" is a part of the "I-cognition", it is still thought acting upon itself to
establish a dualistic fact. It is not the form of "knowingness" that you experienced in "I AM".
That experience is "contentless", be free from a background. forget about the source and
touch the heart of every arising directly.
Longchen: 07 February 2007 11:38 AM
quote:

And that is what non-dual is all about. There is no-self to obstruct the experience, it is as
real and as clear as it can be.
i see... Thanks.
Side Message:
The deep dreamless sleep is a very precious state of being, a natural samadhi of its own,
a measure of accomplishment in the first complete cycle of non-dual. If conditions are
understood along with our pristine nature, all 3 states flow as a single whole.
[/quote]
I still have some way to go. I am no way near what that you have described.
quote:
I still have some way to go. I am no way near what that you have described.
You are humble.

quote:
However I do notice that I am in alignment in my behaviour with a "conserver"

mentality, nothing is wasted, energy is used sparingly etc...
"I know", "I do not know", "I both know and do not know", "I neither know nor do not
know", are the four extremes that are negated by the truth of Emptiness. (existence, non-
existence, both, neither) When "knowingness" is not seen as an entity, then existence, non
existence, both and neither do not apply. Similarly if "self" or "life" is not seen as an entity,
there is no birth (existence) and death (non existence).
"I know" and "I do not know" are just that.. an illusionary boundary between existence and
non existence, like a line drawn between waking and sleeping. When we say "I do not know",
does the knowingness belong to "me" or "I"? Nope. To say that "I do not know" is already a
form of knowingness, with the karmic propensities of "self" as the conditions.
quote:

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,

No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,

The maker of this wheel of life,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
Similarly, mere knowingness is, dependent upon conditions do they arise. Everything is
conditioned arising, but the ignorant tries to grasp them by imposing illusionary boundaries
and views, thus illusions like the 4 extremes and so on.
Reality has also nothing to do with subjective and objective world. When we say something
like "I do not know", isn't it viewing reality as an objective and subjective reality? These are
again more boundaries imposed by the mind.
But let's look at Master Tu Shun's teachings. According to him, every node is a universe
itself.
quote:

jewel" ...".
So there are countless universes and each is interlinked. It is not in the form of a subjective
and objective world. Now if we say you drop something, it is being reflected in all, and that is
what Master Tu Shun is saying. "I do not know how you feel" is subjective and objective
division. According to Master Tu Shun, there is no difference. It is a reflection in you and in
all, no difference at all. "I feel" and "you feel" are all nodes reflecting. There are nodes, but
knowing is true.
quote:
So there are countless universes and each is interlinked. It is not in the form of a subjective
and objective world. Now if we say you drop something, it is being reflected in all, and that is
what Master Tu Shun is saying. "I do not know how you feel" is subjective and objective
division. According to Master Tu Shun, there is no difference. It is a reflection in you and in
all, no difference at all. "I feel" and "you feel" are all nodes reflecting. There are nodes, but
knowing is true.
Yes!
ps: Though so, it is still a model.
Oh yes and I forgot to post:
http://freespace.virgin.net/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman/lazyman1.html
CHAPTER ONE
Who Are We?
We are equal beings and the universe is our relations with each other. The universe is made
of one kind of entity: each one is alive, each determines the course of his own existence.
etc... (See URL)

quote:
So there are countless universes and each is interlinked. It is not in the form of a
subjective and objective world. Now if we say you drop something, it is being reflected
in all, and that is what Master Tu Shun is saying. "I do not know how you feel" is
subjective and objective division. According to Master Tu Shun, there is no difference.
It is a reflection in you and in all, no difference at all. "I feel" and "you feel" are all
nodes reflecting. There are nodes, but knowing is true.
From "A lazy man's guide to enlightenment" chapter one:

quote:
What we need to remember is that there is nobody here but us chickens. The entire universe
is made of beings just like ourselves. Every particle in every atom is a live being. Every
molecule or cell is a tribe of beings. Energy is a large number of us vibrating together. Space
is an infinite number of our brothers and sisters in perfect bliss.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,

No one who ever reaps their fruits,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,

The maker of this wheel of life,
Dependent on conditions all."
- Visuddhimagga XVI 90
Yes!
quote:
Nicely quoted.. thanks

Forum Topic: Sleeping
Longchen: 22 February 2007 10:12 PM
Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of
non-duality.
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of
observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual...
but less grasping makes it more obvious...
quote:

Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out
of non-duality.
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the
perception of observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-
dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious...
Yes it is a seal. A dharma seal in buddhism. Happy Chinese New Year.

Forum Topic: The Goal of Physical Reincarnation (Source:
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&acti
on=display&thread=1172543205 ~ Closing Gaps Spiritual
Discussion)
Kyo: Thread Started on Feb 26, 2007, 9:26pm
Note : Not replying or addressing anyone in particular. Rather, commenting (in the style of
"IMHO") adressing the ideas. Sharing of perspectives, and so on. If you don't agree with it or
it doesn't feel right to you, it's your soul saying that it (or to be precise, what you interpreted it
as, based on your own belief patterns, ideas, and your, as Byron Katie calls it "uninvestigated
stories"), is not correct for you, at least not in the way you interpet or understand it. Then
ignore it, and ask yourself what is *your* truth, what your feelings are teaching you about
yourself, about your own truth. Clarify it, evolve the matter, share the light in a way as you
best see fit.
Quote:
The goal here is to stop incarnating.
No, the goal is to experience physical incarnation (including especially the relationships
within) and to allow meaningful benefit from this, evolve and assist others (ie. CosmoEthics)
from one's willingness to work with and interact with, the experiences, the karma (karma is a
pedagogical tool), the relationships (with others and therefore with oneself), and the personal
growth or evolution.
Once the individual soul has evolved beyond the (pre-serenissimus) human level (or the 'level
of man', regardless of Earth humans or extraterrestrials) to the Serenissimus (a non-dogmatic
name, simply a useful descriptive nomenclature meaning "true serenity"; the 'next level' of
evolution for human souls), then by virtue of the best way in which to function and to serve
CosmoEthics and further evolution, would be largely (such a consciousness would be capable
of operating simultaneously on many levels and dimensions) extraphysical, which might be
loosely seen (but often crux of matter is still misunderstood) as "no longer physically
incarnating". But it is *not* so much they are no longer physically incarnating, for they are
very much a part of the physical world, universe and humanity, but are operating on multi-
levels simultaneously within, across and beyond the physical.
To say the goal is to 'stop incarnating' is akin to saying the goal of any college education is
the slip of paper (known as "certificate"), rather than the true learning, training and self-
discovery that the syllabus (existential programs), modules (life-plans) and/or semesters
(lifetimes) were designed to support.
A monk once asked his teacher, "Master, how many lifetimes more before I graduate from
physical incarnation?". His teacher replied, "5 more lifetimes."
The monk was dissapointed, shook his head, and thought to himself, "This is not acceptable. I
will study the religious books harder, I will do more good deeds, I will pray more, I will
meditate more..."
After a few months of intensified efforts, he asked his teacher, "Master, how many lifetimes
more before I graduate from physical incarnation?". His teacher replied, "15 more lifetimes."
The monk was shocked, and upset. "How can this be? I must have been slacking. I must work
harder at the goal of no-longer-reincarnating! Study harder, do more good deeds, pray more,
meditate more... uuggghhh..."
After several years of frantic efforts, he asked his teacher, "Master, how many lifetimes more
before I graduate from physical incarnation?". His teacher replied, "50 more lifetimes."
You see, the poor monk was totally missing the point of physical incarnation - to experience,
not to escape it. By seeking the end of incarnation, he was running away (in his mind, his
heart, his experiences) from the very point, purpose and value of physical incarnation - to
experience it (including especially all its valuable relationships it affords or catalyzes) as they
are, as meaningful, as perfect.
You say perfection does not exist? We say everyone's perfect. You say God does not exist?
We say everyone's God. You say that being in physical incarnation is somehow lousier than
being 'no longer incarnated', We say we are *all* simultaneously physically incarnated *and*
operating extraphysically. The beings that are intraphysically incarnated, are our intraphysical
aspects. The beings that are extraphysical and/or no-longer-incarnating, are our extraphysical
or no-longer-incarnating aspects. All are equally us. All *are* us.
Simpo: Reply #1 on Feb 27, 2007, 12:19am
IMHO,
There are no right or wrong..in any conceptual sense...
The desire for experience and experiment is a very very deep and subtle impulse. This
impulse is what i have called the soul/oversoul. Under most circumstance it can be
experienced only in meditation.
When reality is seen as an external environment, this impulse becomes the 'sense of self' A
constantly striving impulse to 'experience, improve and fix the things outside of 'self'.
However, all is the Universal Mind... There is no 'external environment' ... This can only be
experienced in obvious non-duality. The bright, vivid, yet insubstantial consciousness. It is so
amazing how a sense of an individual self can modify the way of perception.
In a way, there is no incarnating into... because in actuality, nothing has ever moved!
But then, how do we account for all the tangible objects and how our bodies actually can
interact with these tangible objects. These are effects of consciousness experiencing from the
effect and dynamics of body.... which are in turn effects of the 'desire' for physical types
expereinces.
Again, my take is that there is really no right or wrong ways... but dynamics nevertheless take
place.
Kyo: Reply #2 on Feb 28, 2007, 12:43am
On the original thread (in the AFK forum), George replied to ask :
Quote:
Kyo.does what you are saying about reincarnation mean,that all are life
times are maped out for us. in others words,when we die we are borne
again,even as soon as we die.George
To be precise, lifetimes and "existential programs" may be *mapped* out by the soul's
Evolutionary Orientor, but your actual life is determined and lived out by your own free will.
And no, you do not incarnate again immediately - the intermissive period (period in between
lifetimes) in the extraphysical are equally important periods for the soul. Indeed, one could
say the physical incarnations are only temporary sorjourns (or temporary 'logins' into a
intraphysical-planet-based 'server'), and intermissive periods in the extraphysical represent
the real 'home world' for the soul.
Read pg 71 for more on "Intermissive Periods (periods in between lifetimes)".

Read pg 73 for more on "Existential Programs (purpose and syllabus for each lifetime)".
Read pg 74-75 for more on "Planning (the Existential Program) for the next lifetime".
Read pg 77 for more on "Intermissive Courses (lectures and tutorials in the extraphysical to
help the more dedicated souls increase the chances of existential success and spiritual
awareness in their next lifetime)".
International Consciousness of Academy's "Retrocognitions" :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/index.htm
Simpo: Reply #3 on Feb 28, 2007, 4:28am
The following is my understanding...
The personality (you) is the expression of soul on this vibration. The personality has no free
will because it is the expression of the soul. It does not operates separately from the soul. It is
just that it's attention is more focused on physicality.
Personality assumes free will and seeks to modify 'reality'... which is does sometimes. But
this personality distorts the way reality is being percieved. It is hard for one to understand
this, unless one has the expereince of non-duality which is existence without a sense of
separation.
I am also aware that the soul has a planning function. But the planning function is a deep
impulse of recording of expereinces.
Also the soul MAY NOT neccessarily fully understand it's own nature... which is non-dual.
Because it does not understand its own nature... it constantly seeks to 'refine' its expereinces
and knowledge. ... and this cause the formation of personality or sense of self on this
vibrational dimension.
All experiences of experience is a desires for a better existence somewhere, sometime in the
future. It is the soul's not being able to be at ease that creates the momentum. It cannot calm
down long enough. Every lifetime, the soul wishes that it fulfills the urges that 'it will be
better this time'. But it did not perceive that there can never be a better in the future.
From my understanding, if there is such a thing as purpose... the purpose is to transform

soul's understanding of its' own nature... in all its parts... so that there is no unconsciousness
that creates perceiving as divisions.
This is just a sharing and i am currently happy with the experience of non-duality. However i
did exerted will in writing this
Don't mean to convert anybody.... as nobody can be converted anyway unless they want to do
so themselves
Forum Topic: A combination of Steven Norquist What is

enlightenment? (Source:
Discussion Forum) and What is enlightenment, no, I mean
really, like what is it? - ~Buddhism: Wisdom Bliss~
Forum
Note: What is enlightenment, no, I mean really, like what is it? written by
Steven Norquist can be found in
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/norquist_article.htm
Simpo: Reply #1 on Mar 5, 2007, 9:55pm
Hi Xsurf,
Thanks for the sharing.
Steven Norquist's description of non-duality is very good.
However, I have some differences in understanding from his
He mentioned that meditation is not important. That is not true (for me)... if one wants to
discover the karmic patterns. Without meditation, the subsconscious level of awareness is not
readily accessible. And one can experience being no one, but nevertheless much conditions
and effects are still manifesting in an unconscious manner.
Also, there are various depths of non-duality. There are levels where there is perception but
there is no expereincer... one is ONE with perception. However, there are level that sensorial
perception is deconstructed. At this level, cognition of things, environments, objects, persons
is also deconstructed... what remained is an inconcievable depthless brilliance.... a most
blissful brilliance.
Also, i feel that while being physically alive, the conditions of being such will require
engagement with what entails physicality. Somehow a balance need to be struck if the
situation doesn't allows to be 'disengaged'. That is allowing conditions to be as they are...
With or without the obvious expereince of non-duality, existence nevertheless remains non-
dual and spontaneously manifesting.
Just my experience and understanding... currently.

Last Edit: Today at 0:17 by simpo
Xsurf: Reply #2 on Mar 6, 2007, 12:09am
Yesterday at 21:55, simpo wrote:

Hi Xsurf,
Thanks for the sharing.
Steven Norquist's description of non-duality is very good.
However, I have some differences in understanding from his
He mentioned that meditation is not important. That is not true (for me)... if
one wants discover the karmic patterns. Without meditation, the
subsconscious level of awareness is not readily accessible. And one can
experience being no one, but nevertheless much conditions and effects still
manifesting in an unconscious manner.
Also, there are various depths of non-duality. There are levels where there
is perception but there is no expereincer... one is ONE with perception.
However, there are level that sensorial perception is deconstructed. At this
level, cognition of things, environments, objects, person is also
deconstructed... what remained is an inconcievable depthless brilliance....
a most blissful brilliance.
Also, i feel that while being physically alive, the conditions of being such
will require engagement with what entails physicality. Somehow a balance
need to be struck if the situation doesn't allows to be 'disengaged'. That is
allowing conditions to be as they are... With or without the obvious
expereince of non-duality, existence nevertheless remains non-dual and
spontaneously manifesting.
Just my experience and understanding... currently.
Agreed... thanks for sharing

Yes the description of non-dual is very good but read with care. Here are my 2 cents.
quote:
Many friends and family have been after me for some time to write about my experience and
understanding of this topic. I have hesitated to write about it not because enlightenment itself
is so hard to describe, but because enlightenment tends to make one quite lazy. Before my
change I was a busy beaver, reading and writing and playing music and sports and really
actively getting out there. But after the change as I call it, there was a clear vision of how
silly all this activity was and how much incredible effort is required to perform it.
The first level non-dual will normally result in this and knowing such danger, the seven
factors of enlightenment are outlined to serve as a guide so that we would not fall prey to our
own karmic propensities and misinterpreted non-action as lazing around after the initial
experience of non-duality.
quote:
After about three years of this I had my first experience of nonduality as it is called. I had
just read a passage in Ken Wilbers The Spectrum of Consciousness where he points out
that ordinary awareness is ultimate awareness. This struck a chord in me, I set the book down
and stared at a paper that was sitting on the table in front of me, after about a minute or two
an exciting and frightening thing happened, I disappeared! By that I mean the middle fell
right out of the equation. Normally there would be Steve over here looking at the paper on the
desk over there, now there was only the experience, "paper" but no Steve over here seeing it.
It was clear that the middle that normally separated the paper from Steve did not really exist,
there was only the experience, "paper."
Now let me try to make this more clear by giving an illustration.
Imagine as clearly as you can that you enter a large house that you have never been in before.
You feel strange and kind of scared, there is furniture and drapes but no people. You wander
around feeling the creepiness of being alone in this big house. You go from room to room not
knowing what you will find. You start to get nervous and a little fearful being alone in this
big house. You wonder how long it has been empty like this. In time the sense of the bigness
and emptiness of the house starts to weigh heavily on your nerves. Finally, when you can not
stand it any longer a shocking realization occurs to you, your not there either! Only the
experience, "house" exists.
This is how nonduality feels and is the real truth of existence. Remember the question, "What
is the sound of one hand clapping?" Now you know the answer.
You see, with enlightenment comes the knowledge that even though there is much activity in
the world, there are no doers. The universe is in a sense, lifeless. There is no one, only
happenings and the experience of happenings. Enlightenment reveals that the universe
emerges spontaneously.
.
.
.
Now lets summarize so far, the universe is perfect, no one exists, yet the experience
"universe" persists. How can this be? Consciousness. Consciousness is aware. If it were not,
then there would be no universe. The very nature of existence implies consciousness. One can
not exist without the other.
There can never be a universe that does not involve consciousness. There are no universes or
dimensions where there is no consciousness. Matter and form would never arise without
consciousness. Universe/Consciousness, Mind/Matter, Wave/Particle, call it what you will,
the reality is that the manifestation, the very appearance we call the universe, is
consciousness.
Now don't mistake me here, there is no observer. There are no persons in existence
experiencing the universe, but more than that there is no Ultimate Person, God, Mind, or
anything else observing the universe. There is only the experience of the universe being there
with no experiencer.
This seems like a paradox but who cares, this is the way it is. Experience "is," that is all, that
is the way the universe is, an experience by no one. The universe spontaneously arises out of
consciousness yet at the same time is itself consciousness. We must lose the idea of matter
being observed by something we call consciousness, that is not true. Some teachers talk of
the Witness, the ultimate passive mind that observes all things moment to moment. This
implies some level of separation, a witness over here watching the universe over there. It's
not like this, there is only the experience, universe. There is no observer. Even if there were
no manifestation the feeling would be the same. Once again let me make this clear:
consciousness is not aware "of" the universe, consciousness is aware "as" the universe.
Now don't mistake that last sentence. Don't think, "Oh yeah Steve, I get it now, consciousness
is not aware of the universe from a vantage point separate from it, like a disembodied soul,
consciousness is instead aware of the universe as one of the billions of beings in it, like man,
or dog, or fish." No! Such thoughts are false. When I say consciousness is aware "as" the
universe I mean the very act of existence is consciousness. A carrot is itself consciousness, is
itself awareness. There is not carrot aware of itself as carrot nor disembodied invisible
consciousness aware of carrot as carrot, there is only the experience "carrot" and that is
consciousness and that is enlightenment. There is no observer.
.
.
.
Enlightenment is the feeling/knowing that no one exists including you and that everything
that happens does so spontaneously and perfectly. Enlightenment is the feeling/knowing that
what exists is Universe/Consciousness, they are the same, U=C. Existence is itself
consciousness and that is why there is something rather than nothing. This is the real state of
things and because it is so natural, so simple and so obvious, we miss it daily.
Describe very well the experience of non-duality!

quote:
People meditate today because it is popular or because they want to have a mystical
experience or just relax. The latter reason may actually be the most legitimate for the average
person. But no one I know says they meditate because they are deliberately engaging in an
actless act, or attempting to resolve a false sense of being into a beingless existence. And of
the many meditators out there, I suspect that the majority would be shocked if I told them the
guy flipping them off in traffic is more enlightened than they.
The point I'm trying to make and have been trying to make is that enlightenment is so natural
and so easy that any attempt at deliberate practice towards it will get you farther from it, yet
paradoxically, you have never once not been enlightened and no matter how strained and
deliberate your efforts towards it, you never once acted!
This is an overstatement. Meditation can only be deemed unnecessary when a practitioner has
completely dissolved the illusionary view of a self. If a person is able to totally dissolve the
self in his first experience of non-duality, he is either the cream of the crop among the
enlightened or he is overwhelmed and got carried away by the non-dual experience.
More often than not the latter is more likely. It is a pity if a person has experienced non-
duality and yet is ignorance of the strength of his karmic propensities. Just be truthful and
practice with a sincere heart, it will not be difficult to discover the deeper layer of
consciousness and experience the workings of karmic momentum from moment to moment.
Having said so, it is also true that there will come a time when sitting meditation is deemed
redundant and that is when the self liberation aspect of our nature is fully experienced. By
then one would be completely fearless, crystal clear and non-attached. The practice of the 2
doors of no-self and impermanence will prepare us for the true insight of the spontaneous and
self liberating aspect of our nature to arise.
quote:
To make it more clear, stuff is happening but no one is doing it. Emergence proceeds and
consciousness is aware. The unawake person, the person that doesnt know what's going on
believes that they are acting, that the human them exists. The reality is, the body exists, the
thoughts exist, the memories exist and that is consciousness and that is all.
Manifestations/Appearances are all consciousness. Consciousness is experienced directly but

not the nature of consciousness. The nature of consciousness is empty.
Forum Topic: what havv you learn in this life? (Source:

Discussion)
Kyo: Thread Started on Mar 26, 2007, 10:52am
On some other forum (url here),
Quote:
Originally posted by xiaodingdung :
"what hav u learn in this life?"
When I saw the title of this thread, I smiled in recognition. Xiaodingdung's question, is a
question that everyone will have to face again after this life is over.
Everyone will have to answer two questions in the afterlife (asked in some form or way, not
necessarily verbally), which are :
1) In this lifetime just over, what have you truly learnt?
2) In this lifetime just over, whom (and how) have you helped?
Since these two questions are inevitable to everyone alive (ie. everyone reading this), I
suggest you start preparing (your life) for the answer.
And oh by the way, congrats; now that you've read this post, you've lagi no excuse to say,
"but nobody ever told me!", when your time comes.
Cheerios!
Simpo: Reply #1 on Today at 5:23am
Personally, I have learnt that all IS.
Every moment is as it IS. There can never be a moment that is not as it is.
Isness has a crystal aliveness... clear, joyful and spontaneously manifesting.
Look! See! Isness is always there... but it has been hijacked by 'sense of self'.... or the stream
of preferences we call self or soul. Even self and soul IS.
Star: Reply #2 on May 10, 2007, 12:45pm
Hello from Star.
I personally don't believe in an afterlife,I have no conscious memory of anything

before I was born,therefore I think I will return to that same nothingness after
I die.My pyhsical flesh will returned to the dust of the earth.I believe every new
body that is born is unique and never repeated.Just like every new flower or leaf
or blade of grass,we are not separate from these, and are spontaneously arising
ever new at each and every moment.
Xsurf: Reply #3 on May 10, 2007, 10:53pm
May 10, 2007, 12:45pm, star wrote:

Hello from Star.
I personally don't believe in an afterlife,I have no conscious memory of

anything
before I was born,therefore I think I will return to that same nothingness
after
I die.My pyhsical flesh will returned to the dust of the earth.I believe every
new
body that is born is unique and never repeated.Just like every new flower
or leaf
or blade of grass,we are not separate from these, and are spontaneously
arising
ever new at each and every moment.
Hmm... not having conscious memories currently of any past lives does not mean that there is
no past lives... there are lots of people who have recalled their past lives through meditation
and therapy... including many from this forum... including Simpo (who recalled them during
meditations), who has shared with me during our meeting some very interesting accounts of
his previous lifetimes... one having taken part in world war 1, one being a tibetan monk, one
being a scientist, etc.
I have known many more others who have past life memories. You may also like to look at
Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on reincarnation and many interesting on traced rebirths.
Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana

Forum Topic:
Deconstruction of Time
Two days ago Thusness recommended me to read David R Loy's articles and books... and he
is very impressed by this author's insights into non-duality. He's both a good non-dual
experiencer as well as an academic, one who can explain that very well in terms of
philosophy. As a result he is getting all his books and asked me to do a compilation of all the
articles by this online articles into a single document file for him. (Over 1000 pages!) His
online articles can be viewed at the bottom of this interview webpage with david loy:
http://www.holosforum.org/davidloy.html.. he told me to read those articles as they are very
well written. David Loy is both a Zen Teacher (he is qualified to teach within his Zen
tradition but if I'm not wrong, has no students) and a scholar with a Ph.D (in Philosophy, I
think).
Here I'm going to share two articles which I think is good... the second article I haven't read
yet but Thusness told me it's good so I'm sharing it here as well. There's also another article
I've read, it's a little long but I think the topic is interesting and is a good read, well written
also. It's called "The Path of No-path: Shankara and Dogen on the Paradox of Practice"... But
I will not post here as sgForums has a restrictive limit on text size. I will read the other
articles gradually.
Hopefully these articles will shed some light about Reality, Buddhist practise, and Non-
duality (of subject-object and discriminations), No-Self. "Nondual Thinking" also discusses
about the self liberation aspect of phenomena & the non-dual reality & how we are tricked
into believing in a separate self.
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26559.htm
Notes: The article Non-dual Thinking is not pasted into this

document file, please refer to the URL. It is a very good read.
quote:

When I am conscious of an object, that is, of a notion or a precept, that object alone is
present. When I am conscious of my perceiving, what alone presents itself to
consciousness is the notion that I perceive the object: and therefore the notion of my
being the perceiver also constitutes an object of consciousness. From this, a most
important fact emerges: the so-called subject who thinks. and its apparent object, have
no immediate relation.
... the notion, I am reading, does not occur while we are thus absorbed in reading a
book: it occurs only when our attention wavers. . . .a little reflection will show that even
when we are not thus absorbed for any appreciable lapse of time, the subject who
afterwards lays claim to the action was not present to consciousness when the action
was taking place. The idea of our being the agent occurs to us as a separate thought,
which is to say that it forms an entirely fresh object of consciousness'. And since, at the
time of the occurrence, we were present as neither the thinker, the agent, the percipient,
nor the enjoyer, no subsequent claim on our part could alter the position...
Yesterday I was watching an old video tape in my dharma center of my Taiwanese teacher
giving a talk 7 years ago in America... he said Seeing, Hearing, Touching, Perceiving, etc are
Awareness (a.k.a Buddha Nature and other countless names) in action... but (dualistic)
thought arises and obscures us from knowing it directly. He then gave an example to let
others have a better understanding of what is pure (nondual) awareness and what is a
(dualistic) thought in a very simple way...
Someone used to ask him "What is Awareness?" He didn't reply him, but used a sharp object
to poke him.. he immediately withdraw his hand and shouted "ouch!" Then my teacher asked
him, why did you shout? He said "I was in pain." Then he said the perceiving of the pain, the
immediate withdrawing and shouting are all (nondual) Awareness... the notion "I was in
pain" is a (dualistic) thought. And then we have the Zen tradition and even Tibetan tradition
that shouts Katz, Phat, in the most surprising moment to bring the student from dualistic
thinking to a state of immediate pure presence
quote:

There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in
awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who dos it.
Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do"
them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things
(and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet,
divisions do not exist.
~ The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing by Toni Packer
Which reminds me of another article on what is No-Mind, No-Thought...
quote:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html
III. Also distinctive of Dogen's account of Shikantaza is that it is the practice of "without
thinking" (hishiryo): which is also called no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin), the essence of Zen
Enlightenment. Here we shall discuss "thinking," "not-thinking";; and "without thinking."
A. THINKING (shiryo): This is our habitual tendency to stay in the mode of conceptualizing
thought.
1. About "thinking" a) Noetic Attitude: positional (either affirming or negating); b) Noematic

Content: conceptualized objects.
a) Noetic Attitude is positional (either affirming or negating): A subject is adopting an

intentional stance toward an object and, specifically, thinking about it in either a positive or
negative way: "This is an X" or "This is not an X," "Do X" or "Do not do X."
(1) Consciousness is an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object. The subject
is a cognitive agent.
b) Noematic Content: X is an intentional object pointed to and conceived through our

thoughts.
2. "Thinking" can be pictured as follows:
c) Aspects of "thinking":
(1) Subject-object division present: an active subject thinks an object.
(2) Non-immediacy: We do not experience the object immediately but only at a distance, as
removed subjects, and only through the thoughts we have of the object.
(3) Non-fullness: We do not experience the object in its fullness or "suchness" but, rather,
only as filtered through our thinking about it.
B. NOT-THINKING (fushiryo): About "not-thinking";;: (1) noetic attitude: positional (only

negating); (2) noematic content: thinking (as objectified).
1. Noetic attitude is positional (only negating): Subject is agent seeking to suppress its
thinking.
2. Noematic content: The object is now the "second-order";; object "thinking about X."
"Not-thinking";; can be pictured as follows:
3. Aspects of "not-thinking";;: Same as for "thinking."
a) Consciousness is still an intentional-vector proceeding from a subject to the object. The

subject is still functioning as agent, even if one trying to bring an end to its own agency.
C. WITHOUT THINKING (hishiryo): This is no-thought (munen; wu-nien) or no-mind

(mushin; wu-hsin): pure immediacy in the fullness of things as they are.
1. About "not-thinking";;: (1) noetic attitude: nonpositional (neither affirming nor
negating); (2) noematic content: pure presence of things as they are (genjokoan).
a) Noetic attitude is nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating): Consciousness is no

longer an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object but is, rather, an
open dynamic field in which objects present themselves.
b) Noematic content: The object is no longer an object that is the target of an intentional
act but is, rather, the object itself as it presents itself within the open dynamic field of
consciousness.
c) Aspects of "without thinking":
(1) No subject-object distinction: The subject has disappearedthis being the Zen
interpretation of Buddhist anatta or no-mind.
(2) Immediacy: Without a subject standing back, the experience is one of immediacy
within the dynamic field of consciousness.
(3) Fullness: Because the object is not filtered through an intentional act, it presents
itself in its fullness.
(4) Such immediacy and fullness are genjokoan, "pure presence of things as they are."
It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or

"cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the
pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought
connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese
term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.
It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of
thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain
conceptual habit or position.
The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies
precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing
absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it
in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the
experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a
thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.
Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other
major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the
thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity. (source)

Oh wise ones... anymore comments?
I'm going to the next article..
edit: wise ones refers to everyone except me...
Notes: The article The Mahayana Deconstruction of Time is not

pasted into this document file, please refer to the URL. It is a very
good read.
Some comments... Regarding David Loy's book "Non Duality: A Study in Comparative
Philosophy", Thusness says This a very good book. correctly describe what non-duality is
and how vedanta and buddhism can come together as one."
However he also said that the implications of failure to understand Emptiness and Dependent
Origination intuitively will lead to being stuck at early-middle stages of non-dual experience,
but one may fail to understand the emptiness nature of non duality and how spontaneous
manifestation arise.. and other systems of contemplation outside Buddhism may neglect this
aspect.
Perhaps Thusness would like to comment...

quote:

Some comments... Regarding David Loy's book "Non Duality: A Study in Comparative
Philosophy", Thusness says This a very good book. correctly describe what non-duality is
and how vedanta and buddhism can come together as one."
However he also said that the implications of failure to understand Emptiness and
Dependent Origination intuitively will lead to being stuck at early-middle stages of non-
dual experience, but one may fail to understand the emptiness nature of non duality and
how spontaneous manifestation arise.. and other systems of contemplation outside
Buddhism may neglect this aspect.
Perhaps Thusness would like to comment...
Ai Yooh...
Dont get the idea that I know anything about self liberating aspect of our nature. What I
meant is we have underestimated the implications and impacts of the sense of Self can have
on the quality of non-dual experience. There is no division in non duality, there is only the
'sense of self' that prevents one from fully experiencing our nature.
Forms are merely that thingness and that thingness is tightly bonded by propensities. It is
these propensities that create and give the solidness and boundaries but in reality, it is empty.
We mistaken these thingness as real, material as real and not know that what is real is
empty, unborn, uncreated, without a center and non local. This is taking the illusionary as
real. It is easy to understand what that is being said in terms of knowledge, but to understand
dissolution of thingness as a bond from intuitive experience is entirely different. The quality
of a non-dual experience will be greatly enhanced when:
1. That thingness of Self as background, as container is eliminated. There is only one, not
two. Thoughts and perceptions continue to hover but the background is gone.
2. That thingness of Body is eliminated. Thoughts and perceptions reduced tremendously.

The background is clearly gone, the body is also gone. The thingness in the inmost
consciousness is greatly loosen. This is the experience of crystal transparency without a
center, not only without a who, there is also no where. There is crystal clarity, realness in
phenomenal manifestation.
3. That thingness as subtle personalities of beginingless past is eliminated.
There can be no compromised for the dissolution on 'the sense of self'.
It is good to learn something about self-liberating aspect of our nature from this David Loy
article and he did outline some important points. However we should not be misled to think
that we have understood the gist of self-liberation. I have many times emphasized that self-
liberating aspect of our nature is easily and mostly misunderstood. A person who cannot feel
the strength of these bonds cannot be said to know what consciousness is all about from a
practitioner point of view, much less self-liberation. I must emphasize that if one has not
eliminated the bond level 1 and 2, there is no way he can understand what self-liberation is all
about. After bond level 1 and 2 are stabilized, non-locality aspects of our nature will
somehow manifest. It is also due to the manifestation of these non-local qualities of our
nature that help clear some very subtle propensities, without these non-local experiences,
breaking and loosening these propensities can be difficult.
Normally self-liberated aspect of our nature is disclosed by fully enlightened sages as they
really seen the truth of their nature, unborn, uncreated and lucidly clear. There are people of
great caliber, great bodhisattvas taking birth will little propensities and bonds, cream of the
crops among the enlightened, these people after the initial non-dual experience due their lack
of attachments are able to attained fearless Samadhi and transformed consciousness into
wisdom immediately. For propensities are the results of subtle attachments and without
attachments, all is realized at once. But it is not for everyone. So without attachments, we are
already liberated!
But for normal lays like us, we cannot truly understand self liberating aspect of our nature
when we are still slave to our own attachments and preys of our own karmic propensities. We
cant even move one step away from the 3 bonds stated above that create the sense of self.
Delicate time to practice hard; have enough quality time to experience the non-duality during
meditation (walking, standing or sitting), otherwise it would be just empty talks.
quote:
Ai Yooh...
Dont get the idea that I know anything about self liberating aspect of our nature. What
I meant is we have underestimated the implications and impacts of the sense of Self
can have on the quality of non-dual experience. There is no division in non duality,
there is only the 'sense of self' that prevents one from fully experiencing our nature.
Forms are merely that thingness and that thingness is tightly bonded by propensities.
It is these propensities that create and give the solidness and boundaries but in reality, it
is empty. We mistaken these thingness as real, material as real and not know that
what is real is empty, unborn, uncreated, without a center and non local. This is taking
the illusionary as real. It is easy to understand what that is being said in terms of
knowledge, but to understand dissolution of thingness as a bond from intuitive
experience is entirely different. The quality of a non-dual experience will be greatly
enhanced when:
1. That thingness of Self as background, as container is eliminated. There is only one,

not two. Thoughts and perceptions continue to hover but the background is gone.
2. That thingness of Body is eliminated. Thoughts and perceptions reduced

tremendously. The background is clearly gone, the body is also gone. The thingness in
the inmost consciousness is greatly loosen. This is the experience of crystal transparency
without a center, not only without a who, there is also no where. There is crystal clarity,
realness in phenomenal manifestation.
3. That thingness as subtle personalities of beginingless past is eliminated.
There can be no compromised for the dissolution on 'the sense of self'.
It is good to learn something about self-liberating aspect of our nature from this David
Loy article and he did outline some important points. However we should not be misled
to think that we have understood the gist of self-liberation. I have many times
emphasized that self-liberating aspect of our nature is easily and mostly misunderstood.
A person who cannot feel the strength of these bonds cannot be said to know what
consciousness is all about from a practitioner point of view, much less self-liberation. I
must emphasize that if one has not eliminated the bond level 1 and 2, there is no way he
can understand what self-liberation is all about. After bond level 1 and 2 are stabilized,
non-locality aspects of our nature will somehow manifest. It is also due to the
manifestation of these non-local qualities of our nature that help clear some very subtle
propensities, without these non-local experiences, breaking and loosening these
propensities can be difficult.
Normally self-liberated aspect of our nature is disclosed by fully enlightened sages as

they really seen the truth of their nature, unborn, uncreated and lucidly clear. There
are people of great caliber, great bodhisattvas taking birth will little propensities and
bonds, cream of the crops among the enlightened, these people after the initial non-dual
experience due their lack of attachments are able to attained fearless Samadhi and
transformed consciousness into wisdom immediately. For propensities are the results of
subtle attachments and without attachments, all is realized at once. But it is not for
everyone. So without attachments, we are already liberated!
But for normal lays like us, we cannot truly understand self liberating aspect of our
nature when we are still slave to our own attachments and preys of our own karmic
propensities. We cant even move one step away from the 3 bonds stated above that
create the sense of self. Delicate time to practice hard; have enough quality time to
experience the non-duality during meditation (walking, standing or sitting), otherwise it
would be just empty talks.
I see... thanks a lot for your elaborated reply
I agree meditation practise is really quite important and I am lacking practise in that...
Forum Topic: something to ask
quote:

Mmm when i was listening to Avril Lavigne - Keep Holding On, a thought stuck into
me.. im wondering.. when the karmic condition is right, it is okay and something even
beneficial to hold on to something?
But we all know that things and karmic conditions changes and before we realise that
the condition is there for us to let go... so if we still hold on to it.. it becomes an
[b]attachment?
so this is how attachment came about...
All sorts of attachment to pain ( as in u can't forget the things that they have done or someone
), pleasures ( ur fav pastimes ) all distracted the mind from living in the present moment.
I find out it is very true.. esp when im mugging now for the exam.. im attached to utube now.
Give me some pleasures but ultimately fleeting
eh sorry AEN, i re-edit it before reading ur posting..[/b]
IMO and from a spiritual practice point of view, any form of holdings is pain.
Many times attachments are not obvious and we never realized how strong our attachments
are until we are hit by crisis. This is what I experienced during financial crisis in 1997.
Before that I thought I was not that attached to $$$ but when threaten by bankruptcy all sort
of thoughts arised, including very evil ones.
To live in present moment from a practice perspective is to be in naked awareness, where

awareness is completely clear, non-dual and unmolested. It is not seeking anything and
awareness rest in its orginality. Puting this mind state into daily activities is known as non-
action and does not carry karma and this is the difficult part. This is different from those '1
second manager' sort of concepts that train one to be effective and efficient in achieving
goals.
With regards to ur exams and utube example, it is a matter of being focus that requires u to
'jing and ding' in order to concentrate. In this case both are still attachment. If u study with ur
best effort yet not affected by the the outcome, you are non-attached.
Isis: 15 April 2007 10:40 AM
quote:
IMO and from a spiritual practice point of view, any form of holdings is pain.
What if u need to hold on such as " to fight sleeplyness".. it couldn't be bad?
Where does attachment arises? It is from ignorance -> where the notion of this "self" arises?
Attachment disturbs the peace of the mind, despite the attachment is to pleasure? and oh yes
thusness, the jing and ding state that u mentioned struck me a chord. I didn't realise that
attachment to such a state isn't good too.
quote:

What if u need to hold on such as " to fight sleeplyness".. it couldn't be bad?
It depends on what you meant by fighting sleepiness, if genuine conditions for sleep arise,
you should sleep. However if you are referring sleepiness as a result of unstable and
distracted mind then it is one of the five hindrance (sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor,
restlessness and worry, doubt.) that should be overcome with right effort of meditation. These
hindrances denied us from experiencing the joy of raptures and tranquility.
quote:
Where does attachment arises? It is from ignorance -> where the notion of this "self" arises?
This is a very difficult question although it may sound simple. At the face value, attachment
is an emotional cling to an object. It is the cause of repeated miseries and in Buddhism it is
what that turns the wheel of rebirth. We are attached because of ignorance. We may take
ignorance as the inability to see thing as it is, that is, we fail to see deep enough the 3
universal characteristics of phenomenal existence.
However if we were to dwell deeper, a more subtle question exists here -- why must the mind
be attached at all? why does a lack of insight into the 3 universal characteristics of
phenomena resulted in attachment? This also links to your next question of what is Self and
how does it arise. It is a very complex issue as it links directly to the nature of our pristine
awareness.
As a matter of fact, training ourselves to be bare in attention in insight meditation is to
understand the essence of the seals and our pristine nature. We may wonder why must we be
bare in attention? Why must one go beyond symbols and why did Padmasambhava teach
Self Liberation through seeing with 'naked' awareness? Unfortunately, this is a case that
cannot be understood through logical deduction. To have real insight into this issue requires
an experiential and phenomenological approach.
I think AEN puts it well by saying Dharma Dan placed great emphasis on the 3 dharma seals
and I agree that we see different dimensions of the seals along the supramundane path from a
stream enterer to Arhat at each level the 'meanings' and significance of the three dharma
seals, non-duality and interdependence become more and more apparent.
Don't think too much for now, focus on ur exams and study hard.
Wish u good luck for your exams!
about non duality (Source:

Forum Topic:
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insigh
t&action=display&thread=1170547575 ~ Closing
Gaps Spiritual Discussion Forum)
Simpo: Thread Started on Feb 3, 2007, 7:06pm & Reply #1 on Feb 3, 2007, 7:11pm
Non duality is really the same experience as no-self state. It is also the same as no subject-
object split. 'No subject-object split' means the illusion of an observer and the being observed
is being understood and the sense of split dissolved.
Below is a description of how non-duality feels like.
I have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees. Certain times there are more
mental thoughts, certain times less and this give rise to different degrees of vividness and
sense of Oneness.
At times, sense of being at a location can be greatly diminished... instead what is being felt
are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth, 'here-ness' is really made up of
perceptions and sensations... For example, the sensations of pressure of the feet against the
floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and hearing and so on
so forth are just that.
For in truth, 'location-space', 'individuality-self', ' inner-outer', etc are impressions.
There is also a spacious or all-pervading quality to the experience of non-duality and this is
what was meant as a sense of Oneness. At times, objects and surroundings can be 'de-
cognated' ( that is ... freed from being perceived as such) and a free-ing joyful and vitalising
feeling can be felt. This feels like the mind has finally comes to a must-needed rest from its
incessant mental activities.
Also, in the deeper range of non-duality, there is an increasingly penetrating brightness. This
brightness is the result of mind's deconstruction which allows for intense penetration into
consciousness. The Brightness can be so intense that it is truly stunning.
Please understand that all along our existence has been non-dual. There is no attaining to non-
duality... It is only the 'sense of self' that created the impression of duality. Even when the
'sense of self' is there, existence is still non-dual. We never live out of non-duality.
Non-duality is NOT the same as a state of Witnessing Presence observing

Phenomenality. An Eternal Witness Presence that is apart from Phenomena cannot be said to
be non dual as there are 2 components here (witness and phenomena). I had this experience
before. And now, I must say that true non-duality is distinctively different from this.
Non duality can only be effortlessly experienced when the 'sense of self' and the 'Eternal
Witness' are correctly understood for what they are.
When "Eternal Witness" and "Sense of Self " is correctly understood, life becomes
effortless, we are the realization of being the' ghost in the machine '
Non=duality is the "One" looking at it self.

Simpo: Reply #3 on May 6, 2007, 6:30pm
When "Eternal Witness" and "Sense of Self " is correctly understood, life
becomes
effortless, we are the realization of being the' ghost in the machine '
Non=duality is the "One" looking at it self.

Hi Star
This 'One' that you described is not apart from Phemonality-manifestion.
'Knowingness' is within the flow of Manifestation... There is no 'One' required to look at

itself. This 'looking' is really in the flow of manifestation, is ever-changing within the flow
and is not a constant.
There are many depths of non-duality. There are level where one is 'one with perception'.
There are also levels where there is total deconstruction... there is no 'biaseness' towards
anything or any perception. This is a bliss state as the mind comes to a detached state.
In the beginning, this bliss is by letting go. At a later realisation, letting go is also realised to
be another 'doing'. For in truth, all is just this Isness.
regards
Xsurf: Reply #4 on May 7, 2007, 2:33am
Hi star, here are some articles which explains the difference between the state of Witness and
the Non-dual reality.
Here's a sharing of my Buddhist friend's six stages of experiences where even the Witness is
transcended:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
(note: there are some other related articles in the blog)
Here are some articles by Ken Wilber:

----------------------
{The full 3 articles are not copied into this document file, please refer to
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html)
----------------------
Star: Reply #6 on May 7, 2007, 7:23am
Thank-you
Simpo and XSurf
Thanks XSurf for the website and info in your post.

I have a very keen sense of this Non=duality thing.
But my mind is unable to grasp the ultimate clarity of it.
I will be watching this thread very carefully.
Simpo: Reply #6 on May 7, 2007, 7:23am
Hi Star,
If you are interested, you may wish to read about the series of realisations that I had...
http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html#realisations
If I am not wrong, you should currently be at this stage..
http://www.dreamdatum.com/absolute-mirror.html
PS: Please understand that this is just a sharing... not everyone follows the same stages. And
also, my realisation is not final and complete yet and there are newer developments that I did
not put on the website... because i need time to discover and stabilise the newer level of
realisation...
regards
Yep.. simpo has some pretty deep insights on this subject.. I do highly recommended to read
up on his 'series of realisations', it was commented by some as having v good qualities And
as the forum owner has gone through the various phases he can share with you some of his
experiences..
That's lovely
Thank-you for your help.
Just been reading the snippet of information XSurf posted, it was extremely good.
Although my mind can stuggle with the clarity of Non- Duality sometimes.
Other times it is completely vivid about the subject just like 'simpo' described in his
intro, unless I am constantly studying it, my mind can sometimes loosen it's grip.
I have read Ken Wilber's " One Taste" and many other books on ND
My first realization of no separateness came while reading something on a web-site
but I can't remember what it was now.But it was extraordinary, I just completely
merged on looking out of the window with the whole sky, the trees, everything I could
see with my eyes, I knew I was just looking at myself, and that nothing was separate.
I feel this emptiness everyday of my life it is amazing, but when I try to put it in to
word's I find that is hard to do, also trying to talk about it can be tongue- tying too.
I have reached the" Total De-construction " stage
But was wondering about what is " Transcending the Witness "
Thank's for your deeper insight websites, I will take a look at them .( love star.)
By the way, this realization has taken me a long, long time, but it has been worth it.
May 8, 2007, 11:01am, star wrote:

Just been reading the snippet of information XSurf posted, it was extremely
good.
Other times it is completely vivid about the subject just like 'simpo'
described in his
intro, unless I am constantly studying it, my mind can sometimes loosen it's
grip.
My first realization of no separateness came while reading something on a
web-site
but I can't remember what it was now.But it was extraordinary, I just
completely
merged on looking out of the window with the whole sky, the trees,
everything I could
see with my eyes, I knew I was just looking at myself, and that nothing was
separate.
I feel this emptiness everyday of my life it is amazing, but when I try to put
it in to
word's I find that is hard to do, also trying to talk about it can be tongue-
tying too.
Thank's for your deeper insight websites, I will take a look at them .( love
star.)
By the way, this realization has taken me a long, long time, but it has been
worth it.
Hi Star,
Thanks for the sharing. I am quite sure you also have experiences of non-duality. And it is
quite amazing, how different and distinct it is from 'conventional' state of awareness
About transcending the Witness and so on so forth, basically there are just discoveries that
further refines the experience of Oneness Presence (or non-duality).
Just a sharing...
From my experience, non-duality cannot be 'induced'. It is only the 'sense of a self' that
caused the experience of subject-object division. Therefore, there is really no entering into a
state of non-duality or getting out of the state. With this realisation, one will not strive for
non-dual state... because we are already that state.
Paradoxically, the 'subtle striving' will create an expereince of the 'Witness'. This Witness is
also known as the I AM Presence. This is the mind constantly striving to verify the
expereince of non-duality. 'I am in Non-duality or not". This is one of the cause of the
Witness or I AM presence... it is like there is a desire for the expereince to be recorded.
However, in non-duality, there is no two thing... Amazingly the flow of manifestation knows.
After some period, we will also discover that everything is just spontaneously manifesting.
This is the expereince of Isness. All is really as it is. This is another major transformation.
Basically, it is understood that any modification to the moment as it is ... will be futile.
However, this is not a static state. And a person in Isness can appear extraordinarily normal...
as there is no modification of behaviour.
regards
Thank-you Simpo for sharing also, and for clarifying some points I'd made.
So yes, the Transcending the witness, is nothing more than a knowing we are
already that witnesss,and that everything "is at it is" at all times.
I loved what you put, about the flow of manifestation knows! lovely!
It's like you can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp! That's good! wow!
ps, thanks for your lovely friendly forum!
star.

Just been reading the snippet of information XSurf posted, it was extremely
good.
Other times it is completely vivid about the subject just like 'simpo'
described in his
intro, unless I am constantly studying it, my mind can sometimes loosen it's
grip.
My first realization of no separateness came while reading something on a
web-site
but I can't remember what it was now.But it was extraordinary, I just
completely
merged on looking out of the window with the whole sky, the trees,
everything I could
see with my eyes, I knew I was just looking at myself, and that nothing was
separate.
I feel this emptiness everyday of my life it is amazing, but when I try to put
it in to
word's I find that is hard to do, also trying to talk about it can be tongue-
tying too.
Thank's for your deeper insight websites, I will take a look at them .( love
star.)
By the way, this realization has taken me a long, long time, but it has been
worth it.
Hi, what I meant by transcending Witness is as Ken Wilber puts it, "at some point, as you
inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness in here
completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The
causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism.
Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form. It is the realisation that the Manifestation is the
Source, the Witness, they are not separate. Awareness is the words that form on the screen,
the sound of typing, that's it.. no static witness behind our experiences, no 'background'.
Transcending Witness and realising Non-Duality is not through effort or will... it is not
something 'attained', it is about insights and realisation. What Simpo and Ken Wilber is
saying is about a deep realisation of No-Self and Non-Duality... it is the realisation that all
along, there never was a self, a doer, a watcher, apart from the moment to moment flow of
manifestation... and everything is spontaneously arising. Non-Duality is not a state, it is not
just an experience, it is the nature of reality, of all states. At this level it is not subject-object
becomes one, it is realising that there never was subject-object separation. This is 'entry' into
the pathless with no entry and exit.
Even before this deep insight of non-duality occurs, non-dual experience and total presence
can occur time to time, as a form of 'fusing' of subject and object. However this will not last
long as the basic ignorance of duality has not been seen through... one will eventually return
to the usual dualistic mode of perceiving and then long for another 'unity' experience, which
as Simpo says, strengthens the sense of self and duality even more.
Thank-you Xsurf
Beautiful, I understand more clearly now.

star.
Passerby: Reply #14 on May 9, 2007, 7:15pm
Quote:
Just a sharing...
From my experience, non-duality cannot be 'induced'. It is only the 'sense

of a self' that caused the experience of subject-object division. Therefore,
there is really no entering into a state of non-duality or getting out of the
state. With this realisation, one will not strive for non-dual state... because
we are already that state.
Paradoxically, the 'subtle striving' will create an expereince of the 'Witness'.

This Witness is also known as the I AM Presence. This is the mind
constantly striving to verify the expereince of non-duality. 'I am in Non-
duality or not". This is one of the cause of the Witness or I AM presence... it
is like there is a desire for the expereince to be recorded. However, in non-
duality, there is no two thing... Amazingly the flow of manifestation knows.
After some period, we will also discover that everything is just

spontaneously manifesting. This is the expereince of Isness. All is really as
it is. This is another major transformation. Basically, it is understood that
any modification to the moment as it is ... will be futile. However, this is not
a static state. And a person in Isness can appear extraordinarily normal...
regards
Good Stuff!
Quote:
Hi, what I meant by transcending Witness is as Ken Wilber puts it, "at some
point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of
being a Witness in here completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns
out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the
Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. Form is
Emptiness and Emptiness is Form. It is the realisation that the
Manifestation is the Source, the Witness, they are not separate. Awareness
is the words that form on the screen, the sound of typing, that's it.. no static
witness behind our experiences, no 'background'.
Transcending Witness and realising Non-Duality is not through effort or

will... it is not something 'attained', it is about insights and realisation. What
Simpo and Ken Wilber is saying is about a deep realisation of No-Self and
Non-Duality... it is the realisation that all along, there never was a self, a
doer, a watcher, apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation...
and everything is spontaneously arising. Non-Duality is not a state, it is not
just an experience, it is the nature of reality, of all states. At this level it is
not subject-object becomes one, it is realising that there never was subject-
object separation. This is 'entry' into the pathless with no entry and exit.
Even before this deep insight of non-duality occurs, non-dual experience

and total presence can occur time to time, as a form of 'fusing' of subject
and object. However this will not last long as the basic ignorance of duality
has not been seen through... one will eventually return to the usual
dualistic mode of perceiving and then long for another 'unity' experience,
which as Simpo says, strengthens the sense of self and duality even more.
Very well said!

Some times to retrogress a lil is progress.
Retrogress to improve the degree of clarity, the vividness of the fabric and texture of
manifestation. Uncontrived spontaneity is in total clarity and they meet when there is
completely no one.
Hi Passerby,
Welcome
Passerby: Reply #18 on May 10, 2007, 8:49am
May 10, 2007, 3:06am, simpo wrote:

Hi Passerby,
Welcome
Thanks.
Quote:
After some period, we will also discover that everything is just

spontaneously manifesting. This is the expereince of Isness. All is really as
it is. This is another major transformation. Basically, it is understood that
any modification to the moment as it is ... will be futile. However, this is not
a static state. And a person in Isness can appear extraordinarily normal...
Just for sharing:
'Isness' carries different meanings depending on the conditions that give rise to its realisation.
The 'Isness' that you experienced arises out of the conditions of 'no-self' and 'spontaneity'. So
much so that when 'sense of self' arises due to karmic propensities at work, nothing needs be
done at all, this 'doing nothing' is already the clearing of the karmic patterns -- self-liberates.
However it is not the case of Isness that arises out of "I AM". It is similar to the case of
discarding meditation...
My 2 cents.
Hi Passerby
You say......
However it is not the case of Isness that rises out of "I Am"
What Isness rises out of "I Am" ? Thanks.

Hi Passerby
You say......
However it is not the case of Isness that rises out of "I Am"
What Isness rises out of "I Am" ? Thanks.
Isness that arises from I AM is a sensation of not wanting to add or subtract anything from
present moment but still with a strong sense of object and subject split intact. It is the act of
letting things be as it is. However as the experience has not dissolved the subject-object split,
there is still a clear separation of I AM and object and that already is not as it is. For in
truth reality is always non-dual so when there is a split, it is already not "as it is".
Thats cool, Thanks Passerby...What you have said here..
This is what I'm understanding now- Thanks

Sometimes I don't understand what I'm feeling.
Then sometimes I do....
Thanks Passerby
Thats cool, Thanks Passerby...What you have said here..
This is what I'm understanding now- Thanks

Sometimes I don't understand what I'm feeling.
Then sometimes I do....
The smallest unit of experience is known as a thought moment in buddhism. It is simply a

matter of how liberating this moment is. We just have to learn how to lessen our 'efforting
that is filled with bonds' and improve clarity of the moment.
Sometimes thinking too much makes us more mechanical and less human. Just let it be
according to your own comfort level. We will be happier if we are more flexible, spontaneous
and natural if we think lesser.
Thanks, Passerby and everyone.
About thinking less.

It's funny actually because when I am
involved with forum participation,I am
Thinking almost incessantly.
Yet when I am away from forum
I think very little, even not at all.
All things just flow and get done.
Without effort.
I'm still confused about the existence of an

afterlife that I've heard being discussed here.
Does an afterlife exist in the Non-duality ?
I hear Simpo and Xsurf have had experiences

of past life regressions, just curious about it.
Thanks. Star.

Just my opinion.
An afterlife also exist in non-duality. Every experience is non-dual. During the transition,
there is an opportunity for one to experience 'obvious' non-duality... when the physical mind
cease before the afterlife mind quickly comes online. However, it is too short for most people
to gain much insight.
Please do not mistaken non-duality with many afterlife accounts of meeting up with Guides,
other Beings and so on so forth. One could meet with them... but these experiences are 'cause
and conditioned' as in the physical incarnation. These experiences of afterlife lifestyle are
thus also non-dual in nature.
Not understanding non-duality in physical incarnation does not guarantee an understanding of

our true nature in the so-called afterlife. The afterlife could also be expereinced with the
illusion of subject-object division.

About thinking less.

It's funny actually because when I am
involved with forum participation,I am
Thinking almost incessantly.
Yet when I am away from forum
I think very little, even not at all.
All things just flow and get done.
Without effort.
I'm still confused about the existence of an
afterlife that I've heard being discussed here.
I hear Simpo and Xsurf have had experiences

of past life regressions, just curious about it.
Thanks. Star.
Hi, just like to comment that rebirth, unlike what many people understands it to be, is actually
a process rather than an entity residing in the body and then transiting into another body after
death. (Therefore, there is often a problem with spiritual people seeing the 'ego' as an entity,
which must be destroyed, but rather ego is just a process of identification that will be dropped
once insight into the true nature of 'self' arises)
As Omsairam said in the old thread 2+ years ago

(http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=110370895
2):
It Is Not That a Remembering entity lives, dies, and is re-born.
What Proceeds From lifetime To lifetime Is The conditional Process ItselfNot a Fixed (or
Eternal) "personal" entity (or An Independent and Separate individual Consciousness).
and Passerby (Thusness) said:
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from
moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed
entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and
Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".
As our insights deepen, it becomes more and more apparent that the so called 'self' which
used to seem so seemingly solid, separate and existent, is actually an everchanging process,
much like the word 'weather' does not mean any particular entity but an everchanging process
of clouds coming and going, wind, rain, thunder, etc. (also see What is This Me?) Similarly
the 'self' is not a fixed entity but a momentary self consisting of our mental and karmic
factors. This will then lead to the realisation of non-duality of subject-object -- that 'Self' as
an agent, doer, watcher is actually illusory, as Simpo said in his article:
http://www.dreamdatum.com/doer-beingdone.html
Quote:
In such meditation, one will discover that there is really NO observer of
these thoughts. The subsequent thoughts that arise after the previous
thought are the 'observation' of their predecessors. All these are happening
at lightning-fast rate, and therefore is perceptible only under deep clarity.
Then when our insight deepens even further and burns away our bond completely, the
process of rebirth ceases because the conditions of rebirth (the 12 interdependent links)
ceases. According to Buddhism, Rebirth/existence arises as dependent co-arising, and it
ceases as Dependent Co-Ceasing. Because the universe functions as dependent co-arising, all
phenomena are empty of inherent existence but arises like the holographic universe or the Net
of Indra (see http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=129929)
The principle of Conditionality:

What are the 12 interdependent links leading to rebirth?
Quote:
http://www.dhammadana.org/en/dhamma/paticca_samuppada.htm
The twelve links of interdependent origination
* Dependent on ignorance (avijj) mental formations...

* ... arise.
* From mental formations (sakhr), rebirth consciousness arises.
* Consciousness (via) gives rise to mental and physical phenomena.
* From mental and physical phenomena (nma rpa), the spheres of the
six senses arise.
* From the spheres of the six senses (sayatana), contact arises.
* Contact (phassa) causes sensation.
* Sensation (vedan) leads to craving.
* From craving (tah), attachment results.
* Attachment (updna) produces becoming.
* From becoming (bhava) birth arises.
* Finally, birth (jti) leads to decay (jar), death (maraa), grief (soka),
lamentation (parideva), pain (dukkha), sorrow (domanassa), despair
(upysa).
In this way the whole mass of suffering arises.
In reverse order...
* By the complete cessation of ignorance...

* ... mental formations cease.
* By the complete cessation of mental formations, consciousness ceases.
* By the complete cessation of consciousness, mental and physical
phenomena cease.
* By the complete cessation of mental and physical phenomena, the
spheres of the six senses cease.
* By the complete cessation of the spheres of the six senses, the contact
ceases.
* By the complete cessation of the contact, the sensation ceases.
* By the complete cessation of the sensation, craving ceases.
* By the complete cessation of craving, attachment ceases.
* By the complete cessation of attachment, becoming ceases.
* By the complete cessation of becoming, birth ceases.
* By the complete cessation of birth, decay, death, grief, lamentation, pain,
sorrow, despair (dukkha) cease.
Such is the complete cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
Here is a further explanation of the 12 Interdependent Links of Origination:

http://www.pcddallas.org/The_12_Links_of_Interdependent_Origination.htm
Complete cessation is similar to Simpo's writings on 'deconstruction'. When there is complete

deconstruction one enters into Nirvana, without having to take rebirth. There are many stages
of enlightenment and in Buddhism, the minimum level to transcend the cycle of rebirth is the
'Arhat' (4th stage of the 4 levels leading to Arhatship)... which corresponds somewhere with
the 6th Bodhisattva bhumi. A bodhisattva with great compassion to save other sentient beings
however does not simply enters into nirvana and continues to practise until the 10th Bhumi
and then eventually attains Buddhahood. Someone who achieves the third stage just before
Arhat, which is the level of Anagami will be able to temporarily experience Nirvana, the total
cessation of perception and feelings (Nirodha Samapatti) but has not yet completely attained
total insights and cleared all fetters. However both the non returner (anagami) and once
returner (second stage) is destined to attain full arhat within this or the next life with the non
returner not possible to return to our sensual planes as the fetter of the fundamental dualistic
attraction to sensual realm is dissolved, due to strong insights into non-duality. If he did not
attain arhatship before death, he enters the 4th jhana plane and attains arhatship from there.
Even to attain the first path, stream entry, one is destined to attain full arhat within seven
lifes. (With regards to the ten fetters and the fetters destroyed at each stage of awakening,
copy and paste this url to your browser:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)#Ten_Fetters. And with regards to the levels
of insights at each level of awakening leading to the dissolving of the fetters, download
Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version by Dharma Dan, Arhat, and
check out 'The Heart Sutra Model' section.)
p.s. I did not have past life regressions, but I have many friends as well as my dharma
teachers who were able to recall many previous lifetimes.
And you mentioned 'thinking almost incessantly' while reading the posts. This is because of
our mind trying to grasp reality conceptually... but words can only go so far. As longchen
said deep clarity is needed to penetrate the nature of reality, this clarity comes from bare
awareness of our moment to moment reality incl thoughts, and all our sense awareness,
leading to the insights of the 3 dharma seals or the 3 characteristics of existence
(impermanence, suffering, no-self.. also see the chapter on the three characteristics of
existence in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version). This is called
vipassana/vipashyana in Buddhism, which means insight practice. Perhaps passerby may
want to elaborate something on this.
Simpo and Xsurf

Thank- you for your explanations and websites, I will take a look at them.
Xsurf I enjoyed reading what you put here, it's amazing, I am in so much awe
of the whole enlightening process, the unraveling of the illusional "self"
I need to read more into afterlife understanding, but I think I'm begining to grasp
the clarity of it, I know from reading what you say here that it exists in non-duality.
Are we all in the Nirvana State without knowing it,or does it have to be attained?
Sorry about all questions.

Thanks again.
star.

Simpo and Xsurf
Thank- you for your explanations and websites, I will take a look at them.
Xsurf I enjoyed reading what you put here, it's amazing, I am in so much
awe
of the whole enlightening process, the unraveling of the illusional "self"
I need to read more into afterlife understanding, but I think I'm begining to
grasp
the clarity of it, I know from reading what you say here that it exists in non-
duality.
Are we all in the Nirvana State without knowing it,or does it have to be
attained?
Sorry about all questions.

Thanks again.
star.
In a way yes.. and Nirvana is not attained in actuality though conventionally people may so
say.. Nirvana is through insight into the nature of reality and the nature of reality is always so,
nothing is attained. And this insight burns away our ignorance and bonds. As the saying goes
Nirvana is Samsara rightly seen... and is inseparable.
Both Nirvana and Samsara is of mind's nature which is luminous emptiness. "It is the single
(nature of) mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana." -
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/self-liberation-through-seeing-with.html
And what is non-duality and one taste? "One taste means that the duality of experience
dissolves, that all dualistic notions such as samsara and nirvana dissolve into the state of
nondual awareness." -
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1660
Thanks Xsurf
For the " Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha "
by Daniel M Ingram.
And other stuff, I have book marked them.

Always reading, so much to read, life is infinite, thank god.
love star.

Thanks Xsurf
For the " Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha "
by Daniel M Ingram.
And other stuff, I have book marked them.

Always reading, so much to read, life is infinite, thank god.
love star.
Quote:
An afterlife also exist in non-duality. Every experience is non-dual. During

the transition, there is an opportunity for one to experience 'obvious' non-
duality... when the physical mind cease before the afterlife mind quickly
comes online. However, it is too short for most people to gain much insight.
Yes whether after or before life, when we talk about awareness, it has to be non-dual.
Awareness is by 'nature' so. This is the truth of every experience.
For those that have experienced non-duality, be thorough in being no-one. Be brave to forgo
'the sense of self'. Practice till complete tranparency. Do not be misled by arbitary thoughts,
be simple and direct. Allow full experience of the crystal clarity in the flow of manifestion
without the background, the witness. Allow the joy and bliss of naked awareness of no-self to
carry us through effortlessly.
I cannot help but to express this joy out...

Your joy is shared passerby.
I have disappeared into this transparency feeling of no-self.

Once tasted it is not lost in my experience.
It is a feeling of perfection among no perfection.
Joy and graceful living.
However my mind still struggles with this afterlife idea
what it means, and what it is, and how do we make sense of it,
or how we experience it, I've heard someone saying it is a mind trick.
thanks anyone.
star.
Xsurf: Reply #33 on May 17, 2007, 7:32pm


Joy and graceful living.
However my mind still struggles with this afterlife idea
what it means, and what it is, and how do we make sense of it,
or how we experience it, I've heard someone saying it is a mind trick.
thanks anyone.
star.
In Buddhism, rebirth happens every moment, not just to afterlife, as long as the 12 links are
in action.
But rebirth (not reincarnation as buddha never taught reincarnation of a self) implies that
there is no permanent self. There is no self to be found. There is no need to figure out what
our future life is like and we cant.. (unless you are clairvoyant or something) but the
practitioner is not attached to past, present, future how will we be like 20 years from now?
We can make a guess but will never know. We cant even know the next moment.


Joy and graceful living. However my mind still struggles with this afterlife
idea what it means, and what it is, and how do we make sense of it, or how
we experience it, I've heard someone saying it is a mind trick.
thanks anyone.
star.
Hi Star,
You have loosen the bond of a background, no-self is experienced; but the propensity of
attempting to understand through seeing things as object and subject is still there. What it
means, what it is, how do we make sense of it is a struggle. It is a struggle of the dualistic
mind attempting to understand something from measurement and comparisons. This
propensity must also be deconstructed until you are so comfortable of being naked in
awareness. This mode of gaining knowledge from deduction, induction, measurement and
comparison is learnt, it is not the natural state of awareness. There must be a clear
understanding that the depth of spirituality cannot be known through such mode of
understanding. This is also a 'seed' that creates the sense of self. A unit of experience is
blocked by all these propensities that we are unable to intuitively know the unborn nature of
awareness. It is not a 'mind trick' as what some said although wisdom practitioners do not tok
about non-local issues.
Conventionally, to experience non-local aspect of pristine awareness is through

concentration. It is the job of concentration. Concentration till one enters into a deep stage of
absorption and object-subject becomes one, a state of transcendence. Non-local experiences
in such a practice are reached through the power of focus. So the key towards non-local
experiences is absorption and transcendence.
Non-duality on the other hand is a form of realization, a realization that all along there never
was a split. Its clarity and level of transcendence come from dissolving the seeds that
prevents the seeing. Very seldom we hear people talk about the non-local aspect in the
practice of wisdom but non-duality do meet non-locality at the point of transcendence (phase
4). It is some sort of absorption as in the case of concentration but it is more of 'clarity till the
point of absorption'. It may sound paradoxical, but this is true. This is the way of wisdom.
There are many layers of consciousness and the truth of non-duality must first sink deep
down into the inmost consciousness. It is important to reach the phase of turning point as at
this phase, the realization of no-self has sunk sufficiently deep into consciousnesses till there
is no retreat. Otherwise that joy and experience of no-self will be lost in few months time
(This is my experience) and re-surface again until "Emptiness as forms' is deeply
experienced. In phase 2-3, non-local experiences may be experienced for some people and
mostly with the help of concentration (like asking a question of our past lives) it can be
experienced after 6-9 months of practices especially after deeply experiencing Emptiness is
Form. Non-local aspect is triggered at the point of transcendence.
Below is some sort of summary of what I think a insight practitioner will go through. What I
outline is far from being authentic, it is just for communicating and sharing purposes.
1. Perception still lingers but there is a clear understanding that there is no-self apart from
manifestation. Practice clarity from insight meditation will help. Clarity from all 6 doors
eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, consciousness.
2. Perception is dropped. Mind/body dropped. A very important phase. Body is but a
mental construct. When that imprints and meanings of body is dropped, division
between inner and outer is gone. All divisions of senses are also gone. All is One Taste. Just
Isness. Manifold of presence experienced clearly.
3. Emptiness as Forms and Spontaneous manifestation.

Submerge oneself into spontaneous manifestation yet there is crystal clarity of the texture and
fabric of awareness as forms. Dualistic cognition is replaced by directness, naturalness and
spontaneity. Spontaneity, naturalness and flow took over all dualistic perceptions. Conscious,
sub-consciousness and unconsciousness function as a whole without division. There is no
need to hold on to a conscious knowing; there is no need to understanding anything. Whether
one understands is no more important, all knowingness comes from flow of wholeness. There
is no attempt to deviate from what is as a whole. Here, there is a danger of skewing towards
spontaneity. Not to miss out the luminosity aspect, Emptiness as Forms. These 2 aspects must
is one. Luminosity is conscious level and spontaneity is unconscious level, the 2 as one.
True spontaneity is in luminosity. Psychological death is overcome. Turning point.
4. Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no differentiation between what
that spins the earth or what that pumps your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow.
When you eat an apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole clarity
spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss.
How the 'seeds' bond us is amazing...Ultimately nothing gain!
Good Luck!
Xsurf thank-you for your info very helpful.
Passerby
Thankyou for your time and your beautiful explanation.

Your input has been a delight to read and has put things
into perspective I understand what you say.
When it is spoken in laymans terms I am able to digest the point.
It's all good stuff and I'm full of joy.

thanks to you all xx
love star
Found a good sutra on conditioned arising:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.than.html
Phagguna Sutta
To Phagguna
Dwelling at Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings
who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which
four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third;
and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings
who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
When this was said, Ven.-Moliya-Phagguna said to the Blessed One, "Lord, who feeds on the
consciousness-nutriment?"
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feeds.' If I were to say 'feeds,' then
'Who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that.
When I don't say that, the valid question is 'Consciousness-nutriment for what?' And the valid
answer is, 'Consciousness-nutriment for the production of future coming-into-being. When
that has come into being and exists, then the six sense media. From the six sense media as a
requisite condition comes contact.'"
"Lord, who makes contact?"
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'makes contact.' If I were to say
'makes contact,' then 'Who makes contact?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that.
When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes
contact?' And the valid answer is, 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes
contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.'"
"Lord, who feels?"
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feels.' If I were to say 'feels,' then
'Who feels?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid
question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes feeling?' And the valid answer is, 'From
contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes
craving.'"
"Lord, who craves?"
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,'
then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the
valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is,
'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition
comes clinging/sustenance.'"
"Lord, who clings?"
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'clings.' If I were to say 'clings,' then
'Who clings?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid
question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes clinging?' And the valid answer is,
'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition
comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a
requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come
into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.1
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of the six sense media2 comes the cessation
of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation
of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation
of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of
becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation
of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is
the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Thanks for the info

Thoughts dont exist, but are powerful
Forum Topic:
(Source: http://now-for-
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2406&postdays=0&p
ostorder=asc&start=0 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Marcelo: Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Thoughts don't exist, but are
powerful
They really don't exist, but they would like to.
That's why a person write them down.
They are fleeting, so they want to survive, to become eternal.
At first, it appears as if a person is writing his/her thoughts. But in fact, the thoughts are using
this person to exist in paper (or in electronic media).
If you write a thought, it becomes happy. Now, it exists, or at least seems so. But
sophisticated thoughts demand more attention than that. They stick together with other
thoughts, they improve themselves, they need to become elaborated judgements, ideas,
essays, theories, and, who knows, even ideologies. Then they demands more and more energy
to be defended.
Other thoughts are silly but persistent, desired things to be achieved, but never put into
practice. They are like daydreaming, taking away person's energy and vitality, confusing the
mind, like smoke.
Other thoughts like to work in the darkness, pretending not to be there, in the mind. But they
are hiding somewhere, waiting for the right time for action. They are too ugly to be written.
Their existence depends on their ability to hide.
Thoughts want to become more important than humans. In fact, humans are not using
thoughts. Thoughts are using humans as vehicles. I'm not saying that thoughts are inherently
bad. But they have a lot of energy, and this energy can easily hurt its vehicle (the person who
thinks) and other vehicles. Even good ideas, good intentions, can easily hurt people. It is
liberating to see this mechanism at work.
P.S.: Those were just some thoughts that wanted to be written.

Larryfroot: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:19 am Post subject:
Marcelo! What a splendid opening line!
Quote:
yet the act that they are perceived hints at some sort of reality - the reality of mere appearance
only. They do not exist in a solid concrete way - they lack form. Yet there they are. Thoughts
are simply a process of dependent arising. They arise and exist and fall back into the entire
process of manifestation. Their lack of solid reality and yet the irrefutable fact of their
appearance can lead us to a new, fresh understanding that how thoughts arise without true
form and yet have appearance is exactly how all of this manifestation does exactly the same.
You are right. Thoughts do not exist - but only insofar as they lack form. So it is more
specific to state that thoughts are empty of inherent solid resistance. And there you have the
middle way. Emptiness. And for me, it is a far more profound and meaningful truth - a far
more workable truth than nothingness.
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:17 am Post subject:

Larryfroot wrote:
Marcelo! What a splendid opening line!
Quote:
yet the act that they are perceived hints at some sort of reality - the reality of mere
appearance only. They do not exist in a solid concrete way - they lack form. Yet
there they are. Thoughts are simply a process of dependent arising. They arise and
exist and fall back into the entire process of manifestation. Their lack of solid
reality and yet the irrefutable fact of their appearance can lead us to a new, fresh
understanding that how thoughts arise without true form and yet have appearance
is exactly how all of this manifestation does exactly the same. You are right.
Thoughts do not exist - but only insofar as they lack form. So it is more specific to
state that thoughts are empty of inherent solid resistance. And there you have the
middle way. Emptiness. And for me, it is a far more profound and meaningful truth
- a far more workable truth than nothingness.
Good stuff! The emptiness nature of manifestation.

jane wrote:
but the flow of manifestation "Knows"
Just the manifestation, that alone is. The mirror is not needed.
The need for a mirror on top of manifestation is a habitual propensity to 'reconfirm', it is
something extra.
The one hand claps, everything is.
Question (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
jane wrote:
There is no static witness behind our experiences.
No background.
The witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed.
Manifestation is the source the witness.
They are not separate.
Awareness is the words that form on the screen
the sound of typing.
There is only moment to moment of flow of manifestation.
Non-duality is not a state it is not an experience.
It is the nature of reality of all states.
the entry to the gateless gate.
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.
Jane,
No.
The ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE/Awareness Itself does not "come from" the
Manifestation
Hi Grim,
As much as I would not like to say, although you have experienced the fruition of seeing,
you have not experienced the fruition of dropping the Self -- The ONE INFINITE
EXISTENCE. If the essence of experiencing manifestation without the background is not
fully realized, there is no hope in understanding the dreamless sleep. To hold on to a
familiar state of awareness that is experienced in waking state and attempt to bring this
familiar experience to dreamless sleep state is a distortion of what awareness is. It is an
attempt of our thinking mechanism to replicate to what it thinks 'pure awareness' is into
'dreamless sleep'. If conscious knowing does not give way to spontaneity of being no one,
then there is no hope in understanding unconsciousness. Knowingness is the very flow of
spontaneous manifestation.
Good Luck!
GrimNexus: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Hi Grim,
As much as I would not like to say, although you have experienced the fruition of
seeing, you have not experienced the fruition of dropping the Self -- The ONE
INFINITE EXISTENCE. If the essence of experiencing manifestation without the
background is not fully realized, there is no hope in understanding the dreamless
sleep. To hold on to a familiar state of awareness that is experienced in waking
state and attempt to bring this familiar experience to dreamless sleep state is a
distortion of what awareness is. It is an attempt of our thinking mechanism to
replicate to what it thinks 'pure awareness' is into 'dreamless sleep'. If conscious
knowing does not give way to spontaneity of being no one, then there is no hope
in understanding unconsciousness. Knowingness is the very flow of
spontaneous manifestation.
Good Luck!
I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting feelings.
You use different words and/or description.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the "waking state" to 'be
the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".
The true 'transcending' of both (or the 3 states) is inconcievable.
Passerby, i have a question for you,

In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?
ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's drifting.
Thanks for the post.
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:26 am Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting feelings.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the "waking
state" to 'be the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".

ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's drifting.
Just a passer by. So nothing intense.

Before getting into residing and non-residing in a certain state. A mind that is dualistic is a
mind continuously acting upon itself, this is termed 'karmic or doing or efforting'. Whichever
way we go here or there, within or without are all 'doings'. How is such a mind going to break
this 'chain of doing'?
Maybe this is confusing and too buddhistic. I will put it in another way. "Who, what, where
when and why" is merely a system of enquiry, it is not necessary the way reality is. The mind
is molded by 'this system of enquiry to know' into seeing existence dualistically in terms of
subject and object division. How is one to break this mode of duality?
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:49 am Post subject:
Who?, What?, When?, Where?, Why? & How?

are all the same answer.
This has been experienced.
Have you ever read the Yoga sutras of Pantanjali?
To answer your question: "How is one to break this mode of duality?"

It is inconcievable.
Jeff: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:52 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting
feelings.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the
"waking state" to 'be the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".

ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous

manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's
drifting.
Just a passer by. So nothing intense.

Before getting into residing and non-residing in a certain state. A mind that is
dualistic is a mind continuously acting upon itself, this is termed 'karmic or doing
or efforting'. Whichever way we go here or there, within or without are all 'doings'.
How is such a mind going to break this 'chain of doing'?
Maybe this is confusing and too buddhistic. I will put it in another way. "Who,
what, where when and why" is merely a system of enquiry, it is not necessary the
way reality is. The mind is molded by 'this system of enquiry to know' into seeing
existence dualistically in terms of subject and object division. How is one to break
this mode of duality?
one could play at being two for a while,

play, being the focus,
play brings a lightness to the process,
but good play is not a process
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:02 am Post subject:
Passerby,
essentially,
Silence must be forgotten, also.

In analogy,
One dollar has 4 quarters, but you do not need the division of 4 quarters for One dollar. One
dollar is a whole by itself.
AUM
A = 1st
U = 2nd
M = 3rd
AUM aka Silence = 4th
None of these divisions are needed.
Here, the pathless path is pathless in experiencing.

The resolution of this is inconcievable.
Maybe try this:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html
GrimNexus wrote:
Who?, What?, When?, Where?, Why? & How?
are all the same answer.
This has been experienced.
Have you ever read the Yoga sutras of Pantanjali?
Yes but forgotten.

Quote:
To answer your question: "How is one to break this mode of duality?"

It is inconcievable.
Since it is inconvcievable, rest.
Nice Chat!
Gone!
jeff wrote:
one could play at being two for a while,

play, being the focus,
play brings a lightness to the process,
but good play is not a process
Must play till u forgot urself completely.

Bye!
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
Passerby,
could you answer my question now though?
So persistent, it might not be fruitful but so be it!
It will be quite misleading if I tell you yes. As it is not quite the same as the Sahaja
Nirvikalpa Samadhi you are referring too. No-self (in Buddhism and in reality) is not a state
to be attained nor is there a state to reside, it is the nature or a characteristic that is exhibited
in phenomenon arising at all time. Always so and truly so.
For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in
consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the 'bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in
consciousness. Many mistaken that if
there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in
terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Quote:
I understand Transparancy.
Invisible is normally misunderstood to be the same thing, but there's much
more/less in Transparancy.
Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently experienced,
we might not be talking the same stuff.
Lastly we are speaking foreign langauges here. I do not wish to disturb the peacefulness of
this forum.
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
Passerby,
could you answer my question now though?
So persistent, it might not be fruitful but so be it!
It will be quite misleading if I tell you yes. As it is not quite the same as the Sahaja
Nirvikalpa Samadhi you are referring too. No-self (in Buddhism and in reality) is
not a state to be attained nor is there a state to reside, it is the nature or a
characteristic that is exhibited in phenomenon arising at all time. Always so and
truly so.
For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in
consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the 'bond' of 'mine' is still
lingering there in consciousness. Many mistaken that if
there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far
from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Quote:
I understand Transparancy.
Invisible is normally misunderstood to be the same thing, but there's
much more/less in Transparancy.
Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently

experienced, we might not be talking the same stuff.
Lastly we are speaking foreign langauges here. I do not wish to disturb the
peacefulness of this forum.
So eloquent. Don't worry about misleading me. All i would ask is you answer to the best of
your ability, that is all. It's my job to make sense of it, not yours. Once it leaves your
proximity (and even before that) you dont have to worry about it. At least not how it is here.
Yes, the "fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms' and 'things'" has been sufficiently
experienced.
As i stated previously, "Who?", "What?", "When?", "Where?", "Why?", & "How?" have 'All'
been 'experienced' Simultaneously, and it's the same answer--Thusness.
It is known, there could be no "I". And the "I" that does appear, that is known too.
to put it bluntly, we're in the same boat.

grab that other oar, i've been going in circles here! Jeff is only using his hands...
(And Amadeus is taking a nap or something)
you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a
logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how
consciousness functions."
What you speak of is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi
the latent tendencies of the mind lie in wait for favorable conditions to arise
The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here: Far from
true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject:
First I must clarify that IMO it is not the experience of I am the Self, I am pure
Awareness or I am the ultimate reality that liberates. It is realization of the nature of
Awareness that is non-dual, spontaneous and non-local that liberates. We can go into that
later.
GrimNexus wrote:
you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'?
This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to
do with how consciousness functions."
The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here:
Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Well said!
Lets start with this topic of a seed that bond us from realizing our nature and not talk about
the stages of realization.
Like laying a book on a patch of grass causes an imprint on the grass, consciousness forms
imprints upon itself incessantly. Words and symbols carry meanings and form imprints.
Time, space, here, there, now, this, that, in and outand so on.., all carry imprints. It is due
to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols that makes illusions appear real. In fact
to consciousness it has all implications, so much so that it defines and makes us believe that
the world is so. It is a like magical spell that cannot be broken easily. Not even by the
Buddhas from beginlessness time.
Now my first question, when a practitioner first experienced the transcendental experience of
I AM, the Infinite Existence, that pure sense of existence, that indubitable Reality, that
Pure I AMness, what is the experience about? Is that state pure awareness or is it a reaction
to the bond and when this 'bond' sets in?
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
First I must clarify that IMO it is not the experience of I am the Self, I am pure
Awareness or I am the ultimate reality that liberates. It is realization of the
nature of Awareness that is non-dual, spontaneous and non-local that
liberates. We can go into that later.
If those are the terms you wish to use, it is understood. Havn't been looking for the
experience of 'I am the Self' or 'I am pure Awareness' or 'I am the Ultimate Reality' to
liberate. It doesn't anyway.
The only thing i would add to your description is "Perpetually Spontaneous" (because it is a
description, and a description implys an event)
*shrugs* i understand what you're saying, dunno how you feel about it.
Quote:
Lets start with this topic of a seed that bond us from realizing our nature and not
talk about the stages of realization.
Agreed. Besides, as i see it, we're at the door of The Absolute.

It's either all or nothing.
Quote:
Like laying a book on a patch of grass causes an imprint on the grass,

consciousness forms imprints upon itself incessantly. Words and symbols carry
meanings and form imprints. Time, space, here, there, now, this, that, in and
outand so on.., all carry imprints. It is due to the amazing reaction of
consciousness to symbols that makes illusions appear real. In fact to consciousness
it has all implications, so much so that it defines and makes us believe that the
world is so. It is a like magical spell that cannot be broken easily. Not even by the
Buddhas from beginlessness time.
Yeap. I got a phrase for why the world appears as it does with all that functions within it:
Just as a disclaimer-which i'm sure you dont need-When reading this, don't let either side of
polarity take more precedence over the other:
Same for All, Different for Every
Quote:
Now my first question, when a practitioner first experienced the transcendental

experience of I AM, the Infinite Existence, that pure sense of existence, that
indubitable Reality, that Pure I AMness, what is the experience about? Is that
state pure awareness or is it a reaction to the bond and when this 'bond' sets in?
It's Simultaneously both of them (because the True Nature is Neither), as the statement i
posted above implies.
Past what that experience is about(what contains it), or to fully know "both at once" is utterly
inconcievable.
However, here's my pointer of a direct door to THAT:

Neither the Neither of Neither
Passerby: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:
Quote:
However, here's my pointer of a direct door to THAT:
Neither the Neither of Neither
The taste of coffee is more direct.

Only the taste, that alone is sufficient.
The entire whole fabric and texture of awareness is in this instantaneous moment of tasting
and it is gone! Without trace -- A passer by.
'Self' is like marking a point on the surface of a sphere and called it a center. If we do not
know that all points on the surface are centers, then we will have to locate that mark
carefully. This is the experience of Self. When one realizes that all points are centers then
there is no the center really (realization of no-self), one freely points to anywhere on the
surface of a sphere without missing the center. The 'bond' that prevents the 'seeing' is gone,
this is the realization of no entry and exit. Lastly, even when there are karma propensities, the
propensities self-liberates (Realisation of emptiness and spontaneity). That is all I can say.
Happy Journey!
An Eternal Now: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:17 am Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'?
This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to
do with how consciousness functions."
The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here:
Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness
functions.
Hi, realising the nature of Non-duality and No-self is not Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi because
from what I've read, Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a temporary state, it is not pathless
without entry and exit which will come as a result of insight into non-duality. You said in
another post:
GrimNexus wrote:
Jane,
Nope, i'm not completly done yet. There is not full residing in the Self in an
unbroken state. I have/can/do experience Turiya, but that is really wholy different
than Turiyatita, from which there is utterly no "entry" or "return", it is wholly
inconcievable.
Here's a great explination:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html
Have you ever heard of the Yoga Sutras of Pantanjali?

It talks about "breaches in Enlightenment"
Here's a really good website, that has the whole sutra as well as a lot of
explinations.
check it out if you want, i'll link the section that talks about "breaches in
Enlightenment" first, then link the Sutra Map
here's the section that speaks about "breaches in Enlightenment":

http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-42728.htm
Here's the link for the whole Sutra Map:

http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras.htm
It's kinda interesting to see an overview, if you scroll a little down this page, you'll
see the "Practical Journey through the Yoga Sutras" Map thingy
Yes, without having realised the pathless path without entry and return, the realisation is still
not complete. But there is some problems with the site you provided... but first to comment
about no-self.. No-self and non-duality is talking about no subject-object duality as the nature
of Reality (not as a state or a stage). Once No-Self and Non-Duality is realised, one realises
the pathless path, the path with no entry and exit/return. It is also the realisation that, as
Passerby said, leads to experience everything, every moment the unmanifested. (see
- xsurf is me)
As Ken Wilber puts it, "at some point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the
Witness, the sense of being a Witness in here completely vanishes itself, and the Witness
turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the Nondual, and
formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is
Form. It is the realisation that the Manifestation is the Source, the Witness, they are not
separate. Awareness is the words that form on the screen, the sound of typing, that's it.. no
static witness behind our experiences, no 'background'.
Transcending Witness and realising Non-Duality is not through effort or will... it is not
something 'attained', it is about insights and realisation of No-Self and Non-Duality... it is the
realisation that all along, there never was a self, a doer, a watcher, apart from the moment to
moment flow of manifestation... and everything is spontaneously arising. Non-Duality is not
a state, it is not just an experience, it is the nature of reality, of all states. At this level subject-
object doesn't become one, but rather there never was subject-object separation. This is 'entry'
into the pathless with no entry and exit.
Even before this deep insight of non-duality occurs, non-dual experience and total presence
can occur time to time, as a form of 'fusing' of subject and object. However this will not last
long as the basic ignorance of duality has not been seen through... one will eventually return
to the usual dualistic mode of perceiving. After realisation of non-duality, there is no more
entry and exit as there never was subject-object separation in the first place. The illusion is
completely seen through. This must come from realisation.
Passerby wrote 6 stages of his experiences (this is just a summary in terms of stages, but
actually there many 'sub' stages and realisations within every stage)
Regarding Passerby/Thusness's six stages of experiences, please read:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html (I
have posted other articles about non-duality in that blog)
After Passerby's Stage 4 insights onwards, one enters the pathless. Regarding non-duality,
you may also like to read Simpo's and Ken Wilber's articles in Simpo's 'Closing Gaps
Spiritual Discussion Forum':
&page=1
Therefore no self is not a state, it is the nature of reality, it is known as a dharma seal. There
is no entering into non duality or no self... because there was no self to be found to begin
with. There is always no entry and exit And this comes from realisation.
After realisation of the pathless, no karmic propensities will obstruct the clarity on no self/no
agent (no watcher, no doer, no self, etc), though karmic propensities of 'mine' can still be
functioning till one completely realises the self-liberation of everything including those
karmic tendencies.. and it is only the cream of the crop of enlightened who immediately
realises self-liberation after glimpse of non-dual such as Buddha, Padmasambhava,
Bodhidharma, etc. At this age there probably is no one who is of such capacities to awaken
instantaneously to complete self-liberation. If insight into self-liberation is not there, one can
still be attached to 'mine' even though the subject or 'self' is gone, as what Passerby said.
Now back to the site by Wanderling... I must say the 5 stages of Tozan which he wrote in his
website is a very good description of the stages, but the author Wanderling has missed the
essence of the stages. In terms of the 5 stages of Tozan, even at the second stage one must
already have realised the pathless, and realised non-duality. The 2nd rank of Tozan can be
compared with Passerby's 'stage 5' or Simpo and Ken Wilber's articles on non-duality, and
there is no more falling back onto a 'Source' as background because the Absolute is realised
to be within the Apparent -- it is no longer Apparent within the Real, but the Real within the
Apparent, and the background container where manifestation arises and returns is vanished.
The Real is in all manifestations. Manifestation is Source. The rest of the Tozan ranks are just
about putting no-agent into samsara to meet no-mine through non-action. The no-agent dirties
his hands and enter into samsara to meet no-mine through non-action.
I understand you're coming from a more Hindu/Advaita background, and I think you might
be interested to read something I post earlier on regarding this: http://now-for-
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2056 (regarding no-self and emptiness in NM's article and
advaita vedanta teachings [see 2nd post]). Maharishi Mahesh Yogi also described non-duality
in his final stage of enlightenment (unity consciousness):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation. Also, you may take it that Turiyatita
is about Non-duality, as Ken Wilber said.
(lol sorry for editing so many times )

GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:05 am Post subject:
we're using words, and when you think i'm referring to an "entry/exit" i'm referring to the
functioning of "mine"; the "entry/exit" into that functioning. It has to be pathless to even
notice such things.
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to first be
pathless without entry and exit to enter it.
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the pathless but Kevala is where the "mine/mind" would still be alive
but in latent tendencies, Sahaja is where the "mine/mind" is completly dead or "no-mine/no-
mind"
maybe this makes more sense

GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:56 am Post subject:
An Eternal Now, on one of those links, simpo said:
Quote:
Please understand that all along our existence has been non-dual. There is no
attaining to non-duality... It is only the 'sense of self' that created the impression of
duality. Even when the 'sense of self' is there, existence is still non-dual. We never
live out of non-duality.
Non-duality is NOT the same as a state of Witnessing Presence observing

Phenomenality. An Eternal Witness Presence that is apart from Phenomena cannot
be said to be non dual as there are 2 components here (witness and phenomena). I
had this experience before. And now, I must say that true non-duality is
distinctively different from this.
Non duality can only be effortlessly experienced when the 'sense of self' and the
'Eternal Witness' are correctly understood for what they are.
Completly agree.
AnEternalNow: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
we're using words, and when you think i'm referring to an "entry/exit" i'm referring
to the functioning of "mine"; the "entry/exit" into that functioning. It has to be
pathless to even notice such things.
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to
first be pathless without entry and exit to enter it.
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the pathless but Kevala is where the "mine/mind" would
still be alive but in latent tendencies, Sahaja is where the "mine/mind" is completly
dead or "no-mine/no-mind"
maybe this makes more sense
I see... the reason why I wrote is because I read that Kevala Samadhi is that the mind is alive
but merged in light, like a bucket with rope lowered into a well, that can be drawn out
again., or As Ramana Maharshi has stated again and again, while Kevala Nirvikalpa
Samadhi gives Direct Knowledge in Total Clarity of The Self, the latent tendencies will at
times appear to draw the mind of the Yogi out again. and that Kevala Samadhi is A
temporary state of Samadhi or Self-absorption. But well, I may have misunderstood what it
meant..
Once there is non-dual insight, nothing can 'draw the yogi out'. Once pathless is realised, one
is always in samadhi Passerby shared this two years ago, one of his meditation diary:
[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005

[22:25] <^john^> Without 'self' oneness is immediately attained.
[22:25] <^john^> There is only and always this Isness. Subject has always been the Object of
observation.
[22:25] <^john^> This is true samadhi without entering trance.
[22:25] <^john^> Completely understanding this truth. It is the true way towards liberation.
[22:25] <^john^> Every sound, sensation, arising of consciousness is so clear, real and vivid.
[22:25] <^john^> Every moment is samadhi.
[22:25] <^john^> The tip of the fingers in contact with the keyboard, mysteriously created
the
[22:25] <^john^> contact consciousness, what is it? Feel the entirety of beingness and
realness.
[22:25] <^john^> There is no subject...just Isness.
[22:25] <^john^> No thought, there really is no thought and no 'self'. Only Pure Awareness.
GrimNexus wrote:
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to
first be pathless without entry and exit to enter it.
Pathless has no entering at all. You are already that state. (there never was subject and object
or a self, and there is no need to 'get rid of self') and it is not talking about Self as formless,
pathless and then merging/absorption with that formless, pathless, etc. It is about insight that
burns away the bond. Maybe Passerby can comment more.
GrimNexus wrote:
Let me try this.
I've read Thusness' 6 stages.
From what i've written and what you understand that i've written, referencing
Thusness' stages, which stage do you think i'm on?
Passerby thinks you might be at stage 2~4.

GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject:
i'm not doing as good of a job at exacting of description
For lack of better terms and description:

Are either you or Passerby Aware in Dreamless Sleep/Deep Sleep?
Let's try and explore through this descirption
What is written here in Thusness' blog:
Quote:
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise
to the diversities of appearances? Sweetness of sugar isnt the blueness color
of the sky. Same applies to AMness all are equally pure, no one state is purer
than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances
their forms. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
What is the differing of conditions?

Pristine Awareness & Conditions are inseparable, what gives rise to factors that give
appearance, appearance, at all?
(btw, i'm not asking this because i dont know; i'm asking because i'd like to see your answer
so we could try and get a working communication)
The Question IS The Answer, most clearly, when it is not asked.

Passerby: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject:
AnEternalNow wrote:
[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005
Gosh...oversold.
The 6 stages that I outlined are mainly to share with Jonls (aka Amadeus), they are hardly
authentic. Pointless to over emphasize anything beyond what it is.
In fact my earlier years of practice hasn't been consistent, from Buddhism to Hinduism to
Taoism and back to Buddhism, pretty mixed up... Let it just serve as a guide.
appreciate that.
really do.
GrimNexus wrote:
Let's try and explore through this descirption
What is written here in Thusness' blog:
Quote:
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what
gives rise to the diversities of appearances? Sweetness of sugar isnt
the blueness color of the sky. Same applies to AMness all are
equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs.
Conditions are factors that give appearances their forms. In Buddhism,
pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
What is the differing of conditions?
Pristine Awareness & Conditions are inseparable, what gives rise to factors that
give appearance, appearance, at all?
(btw, i'm not asking this because i dont know; i'm asking because i'd like to see
your answer so we could try and get a working communication)
I drink the coffee, u get the taste.
I do not know why.

that's the exact reason
Identification with the role of teacher

Forum Topic:
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:27 am Post subject:
eseward wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
Seperating by discrimination and trying to ascribe
binding(identification), non-binding(fully self-realized/no-identification),
or the means to bind(ignorance), all are simply illusionary
discriminations of the mind.
If in fact, you want to say that this binding or identification is only

apparent and not real; then what is it this apparent happening, at all?
This question is erroneous because if the binding or identification is only
apparent then that appearance that is claimed to be, has to have an origin.
That is simply just another presupposition of a true Source or Entity that
manifests Appearance. Of which, there truly is none.
I see my error now. Thanks for clarifying.
(Separating, not seperating.)
Just for sharing since it involves lankavatara sutra:
Having a beginning, a start is due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism. The thinking
mind requires a base, a starting point for it even to function, it is not necessary how reality is.
We adopt such mechanism because we are molded to see things in terms of 'entity' creating a
subject and object split. Reality only appears to be so -- Appearance but it is not necessary so.
So any attempt to use such mode of apprehending reality will only create more confusions to
the mind.
ps: I think this is what Grim trying to convey.

Yougarksoo: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 am Post subject:
Quote:
Having a beginning, a start is due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism. The
thinking mind requires a base, a starting point for it even to function, it is not
necessary how reality is. We adopt such mechanism because we are molded to see
things in terms of 'entity' creating a subject and object split. Reality only appears to
be so -- Appearance but it is not necessary so. So any attempt to use such mode of
apprehending reality will only create more confusions to the mind.
If in fact you are simply saying the mind can only see conceptually rather than what is
actually going on in this moment, I get it. Concepts, thoughts, ideas, objects, people have a
beginning and end to the mind, but reality is ongoing, fluid, connected. That is oneness.
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:23 am Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
If in fact you are simply saying the mind can only see conceptually rather than
what is actually going on in this moment, I get it. Concepts, thoughts, ideas,
objects, people have a beginning and end to the mind, but reality is ongoing, fluid,
connected. That is oneness.
Yes!
But not to underestimate the strength and subtlety of this habitual tendency of the thinking
mind to grasp hold of a base. It subtly manifests as the Witness observing phenomenon. If not
for this propensity in action, there will no division and experience will have been just the
manifesation in flow.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:03 am Post subject:
Quote:
Yes!
But not to underestimate the strength and subtlety of this habitual tendency of the
thinking mind to grasp hold of a base. It subtly manifests as the Witness observing
phenomenon. If not for this propensity in action, there will no division and
experience will have been just the manifesation in flow.
This reminds me of Tolle's description: we live in a dream. We believe that the person is the
dreamer but this isn't so. The person is part of the dream. Consciousness is the dreamer. But
consciousness is no-thing. It is clear, aware space. There is no distinction between the
consciousness you are and the consciousness I am. It's all one and enlightenment is when it
becomes aware of itself as one. We are consciousness meeting itself. And within that
awareness, many forms arise---bodies, houses, thoughts, words etc? But they are also just
part of that flow, not separate from it. Is this what you mean? I get a strong sense of this now
and then. I suppose there is a subtle sense of it within my consciousness always. But I don't
live in full realization of this. So it takes me somewhat out of my own experience to even talk
about it. Do you have direct experience of this? If so, please share what it is like...
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
This reminds me of Tolle's description: we live in a dream. We believe that the

person is the dreamer but this isn't so. The person is part of the dream.
Consciousness is the dreamer. But consciousness is no-thing. It is clear, aware
space. There is no distinction between the consciousness you are and the
consciousness I am. It's all one and enlightenment is when it becomes aware of
itself as one. We are consciousness meeting itself. And within that awareness,
many forms arise---bodies, houses, thoughts, words etc? But they are also just part
of that flow, not separate from it. Is this what you mean? I get a strong sense of
this now and then. I suppose there is a subtle sense of it within my consciousness
always. But I don't live in full realization of this. So it takes me somewhat out of
my own experience to even talk about it. Do you have direct experience of this? If
so, please share what it is like...
Just for sharing:
Let's say we are in the midst of a retreat and we were meditating deeply. Then suddenly we
hear the sound tongsss. There was no 'I', no 'mine', no nothing...Just simply the sound and
nothing else! And tongs resounding. It was so clear, so vivid. Absorbed in that moment
of clarity of the sound, we asked what is that sound? If we allow ourselves to be just
unscientific for a moment and submerge completely into that very moment of experience and
ask what that is? Isnt that consciousness? Then the question comes, is consciousness in here
or out there?
A division is made between in here and out there because we carry the imprints of a
body. When the imprints and the symbolic meaning of what a body is is being
deconstructed, the body does not disappear; what disappears is the division that distort the
wholeness and clarity of the moment of experience.
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of I AM, overwhelmed by
the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience
as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a watcher and fails to see that the Pure
Sense of Existence is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought
realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure
consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is
hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer Scenery is radically different from
sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of
Presence.
Such is the strength and subtlety of the bond. The power to blind us in dreams.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of I AM,
overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness,
consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly
creates a watcher and fails to see that the Pure Sense of Existence is nothing but
an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves
as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that
arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing
without a hearer and seeing without a seer Scenery is radically different from
sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold
of Presence.
Can you explain this paragraph in different terms.
Also, you have experienced this or is this channeled information?
Is this just another way of discussing the sense of oneness or saying that, once awakening
occurs, we can even move beyond seeing consciousness within us as an identity and then see
something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual hearer, touch
without the conceptual toucher? Then, everything merges completely. If so, I get it. If not,
I'm totally lost (and would like you to explain it in the simplest terms).
Holy_longing: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing,
it subtly creates a watcher and fails to see that the Pure Sense of
Existence is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the
thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents
the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects.
Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and
seeing without a seer Scenery is radically different from sound. But no
one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of
Presence.
Is this just a fancier way of saying that, once awakening occurs, we then see
something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual
hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost.
Yougarksooo: you get it.
It's easiest to 'be' in nature. My first experiences were being at one with large, old trees--
watching them move in the strong wind...I felt the Oneness for the first time, and it was
magnificent.
There's no need to channel.

Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents
the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects.
Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and
seeing without a seer Scenery is radically different from sound. But no
one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of
Presence.
Is this just another way of discussing the sense of oneness or saying that, once
awakening occurs, we can even move beyond seeing consciousness within us as an
identity and then see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear
without the conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? Then,
everything merges completely. If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost (and would like
you to explain it in the simplest terms).
Yes what you said is right and yes it is my experience and I am sincere.
You may want to take a look at some of the experiences I went through to see whether it
syncs with some of your experience at this url
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html.
Nothing authentic, just for sharing. If it doesn't snycs, just disregard it. My 2 cents.

holy_longing wrote:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of
I AM, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless
moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as
its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a watcher and
fails to see that the Pure Sense of Existence is nothing but an
aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This
in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the
experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-
objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without
a hearer and seeing without a seer Scenery is radically
different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All
is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.
Is this just a fancier way of saying that, once awakening occurs, we then
see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the
conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? If so, I get it. If
not, I'm totally lost.
Yougarksooo: you get it.
It's easiest to 'be' in nature. My first experiences were being at one with large, old
trees--watching them move in the strong wind...I felt the Oneness for the first time,
and it was magnificent.
There's no need to channel.
Indeed! Extend it to all other senses, all six doors of senses. Jump and feel the sensation of
touch without 'self', the vipassana practice. Happy Journey.
Larryfroot: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:39 am Post subject:
Passerby...nic to meet you, please forgive me for not introducing myself to you sooner...I
have been a little busy elsewhere of late.
If I may quote you:..

Quote:
...overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness,
consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly
creates a watcher and fails to see that the Pure Sense of Existence is nothing but
an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm.
The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of consciousness. As

such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as it is a function of
consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of the ego led mind and pain
body. We can create a new identity from the watcher, but we do not have to.
We speak of a gap of no self...well I have at any rate! And there is no way to define a
gap...how do you define something that isn't there? But we can define it through its function.
It is a space an allowing that allows all teh qualities that make life worth living to arise
through it. It is an existence, but an existence of a subtle nature that many call 'emptiness' -
rather than nothingness, which is something else - or perhaps something not else entirely.
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:00 am Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Passerby, I think it was just a communication issue. We have different ways of
saying things. Also, this stuff is extremely hard to put into words.
Thanks for sharing.
I supposed so. Nice exchange.

Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:14 am Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
Passerby...nic to meet you, please forgive me for not introducing myself to you
sooner...I have been a little busy elsewhere of late.
If I may quote you:..
Quote:
...overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness,
thought realm.
The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of

consciousness. As such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as
it is a function of consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of
the ego led mind and pain body. We can create a new identity from the watcher,
but we do not have to.
We speak of a gap of no self...well I have at any rate! And there is no way to

define a gap...how do you define something that isn't there? But we can define it
through its function. It is a space an allowing that allows all teh qualities that make
life worth living to arise through it. It is an existence, but an existence of a subtle
nature that many call 'emptiness' - rather than nothingness, which is something else
- or perhaps something not else entirely.
Hi Larry,
I came by few months back to visit afriend JonLS (aka Amadeus)... and find the
discussions quite interesting. So pop in once a while to visit the site. Thanks for the welcome!
I read the post you wrote about emptiness. Good stuff!
Emptiness like what you said is not nothingness. In Buddhism it is the nature of reality. The
characteristics that are exhibited in existence mental states, thoughts, awareness and forms
including nirvana are empty. This means that when we attempt to locate a place, a center, an
origination, we cant find any. It is empty.
Yes you sum up pretty much what consciousness is. When we are dealing with
consciousness, we are in fact dealing with these 3 aspects, emptiness, luminosity and karmic
propensities of consciousness.
In Buddhism the smallest unit of experience is a thought moment. These 3 characteristics of

consciousness interact and create a thought moment. How liberating this moment is depends
on how clear (non-dual), fluid (emptiness) and spontaneous (non-action) the moment of
experience is.
Thanks for sharing.

Yougarksoo: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:22 am Post subject:
Quote:
The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of
consciousness. As such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as
it is a function of consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of
the ego led mind and pain body. We can create a new identity from the watcher,
but we do not have to.
Right, and in my experience, when you examine this closely, here is what is happening. We
experience this thing called awareness becoming aware of itself. Then a thought comes in and
says, "that is me. I thought I was my thoughts, but instead I am the awareness." But when you
look at that closer, another thought has simply come in (the thought that we are consciousness
or awareness).
Byron Katie's question (among many other pointers from others) where she says "who would
I be without that thought" can take us back to the source of the thought. Ramana talks about
that also. When you trace even the thought "I am consciousness" back to its source, you end
up with no thought and pure awareness (which I think Passerby was referring to). Even if you
have some vague mental sense or vague assumption that you are consciousness, you can
recognize that too as a thought (an infant thought) and keep going farther and farther back to
the source of that assumption, and you end up in the true thoughtless realm, where the word
identity as we use it has no meaning. In that "realm" there is no conceptual seer, just seeing
etc.
That's just another way of saying what you said. Thanks to everyone who has posted recently.
This has been helpful and fun.
Larryfroot: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:14 am Post subject:
As a slight and I hope frooty tangent regarding thought...I have been reading Pema Chodron
of late and the practice of maitra...loving kindness to 'yourself' - the thinker, the construct,
and specuifically loving kindness to uncontrolled thoughts and unacceptable feelings. Now
this is not appeasement...but put simply when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of
awareness to shine onto any difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into
that same quality. It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It
too attains the nature of love.
For so many years all the negative qualities I resented in my mind were subject to those same
qualities in trying to chase them out. But hatred of hatred is still hatred. resenting resentment
was still resentment. It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned
- cut off from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply
frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend.
My mind was never conquered by force, God alone knows I spent so many years trying. In
the end my mind was conquered by love, patience, kindness...for when these qualities are
shown to it, the aspect of mind that is mirror reveals itself in its transmutation into all those
qualities.
So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of consciousness by

this simple and powerful method.
And yes, I am really enjoying this thread as well.

Eseward: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:29 am Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
loving kindness to ... the thinker, the construct, and specifically loving kindness to
uncontrolled thoughts and unacceptable feelings
when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any

difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality.
It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too
attains the nature of love.
It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off
from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is
simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into
being my friend.
So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of

consciousness by this simple and powerful method.
Absolutely agree. Beautiful.

Yougarksoo: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:
Quote:
when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any
difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality.
It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too
attains the nature of love.
It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off
from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is
simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into
being my friend.
Unique description, especially the bullying part. So true. Thanks.

Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
As a slight and I hope frooty tangent regarding thought...I have been reading Pema
Chodron of late and the practice of maitra...loving kindness to 'yourself' - the
thinker, the construct, and specuifically loving kindness to uncontrolled thoughts
and unacceptable feelings. Now this is not appeasement...but put simply when we
allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any difficult
thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality. It is
impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too attains
the nature of love.
For so many years all the negative qualities I resented in my mind were subject to
those same qualities in trying to chase them out. But hatred of hatred is still hatred.
resenting resentment was still resentment. It was only when I learnt to see that
thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off from its own luminosity of
consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply frightened, confused and
hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend. My mind was
never conquered by force, God alone knows I spent so many years trying. In the
end my mind was conquered by love, patience, kindness...for when these qualities
are shown to it, the aspect of mind that is mirror reveals itself in its transmutation
into all those qualities.
So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of

consciousness by this simple and powerful method.
And yes, I am really enjoying this thread as well.
Hi Larry,
Wonderful insight and beautiful description!
Although my practice is through naked awareness, I can see the wisdom of your words.
Naked awareness is a big bully to construct but kind to orphan-thoughts. Construct separates
awareness from thoughts; assumes to exist but never existed. Thoughts are the very
awareness just that their emptiness nature are too subtle for construct to fit into its dualistic
framework. Blinded by the speed of thoughts transient nature, the illusion of memory and
the dualistic framework of construct, we personified different aspects of awareness into
different 'entities', define relationships and make attempts to separate the inseparable.
Thoughts being awareness themselves are self-luminous and self liberate. Only a quantum
leap in seeing, nothing needs be done.
Thanks again for your invaluable insight in metta practice, it helps alot.
To Indigo:
That is what I meant.
Forum Topic: When truth takes over (Source: http://now-

for-
Amadeus: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: When truth takes over
The title comes from Adyashanti.
I was walking through the park on my way home when something happened. Something holy
arose from within and took over. I was standing there looking out at the trees and the grass
like it was the first time I was seeing them. I was looking at my hands and feeling my body as
it moved and I was marvelling at being alive and being in this body. I was acutely aware of
being in the world, that I was a separate being in the world. I was enjoying all this as a child
would enjoy a new and novel experience. I went over to a tree and grabbed a branch, I
touched it softly and then grabbed it firmly, I really wanted to feel the tree, I really wanted to
be there with it, to be present, to feel and see and take it all in. I bent down and touched the
trunk near the roots, it was very real, very solid to my touch, it felt very alive. I noticed some
bare earth around the tree trunk and picked up a chunk and broke it in my hand and watched
and felt it crumble and stream through my fingers as it fell down to the earth. I was feeling so
primal, so alive, I went around to the other side of the tree where the branches were a little
higher off the ground and sqatted under the branches near the tree trunk and put my hand on
the trunk and left it there. I was feeling the roots and feeling extremely rooted myself in
being. I stayed there for a few minutes, the feelings arising were so intense and
overwhelming that tears were streaming down my face. Finally I left the tree and moved
closer to the bench and sat and watched the crescent moon in the clear blue sky, there was a
very bright star right beside it, so bright that I thought it might be the headlight of a plane
heading towards me. I sat there and watched this scene and marvelled at life and being alive.
I finally got up and was going to go inside but I had to walk by the sandbox and I was
immediately attracted to the sand. I bent down and started letting the sand run through my
fingers, feeling the texture of the grains on the skin of my hand. I dug deeply into the sand
and noticed that the sand was very damp when you dug down 3 or 4 inches. And then I found
a flat stone. I don't know why this was so fascinating but I was like a little child, I would pick
up the stone with a handful of sand and squeeze the sand so it would run through my fingers
and then I would feel the hard stone pressing against the flesh of my palm and fingers. It was
like finding a treasure, I did this over and over again.
I left the sandbox and moved over to a very large pine tree and grabbed on the branches really
hard. I gave a really good pull on it and ripped that piece of branch clean off and allowed the
needles to run through my fingers as they fell through the ground. I grabbed two branches,
and held on really tight like I was holding hands with the pine tree, I looked up at it and was
just present with it for a little while. But things were beginning to feel really intense inside of
me so I went inside.
I went in the bedroom to change and got undressed, but when I was completely undressed I
was drawn down to my knees and I bent very low with my forehead against the carpet. The
energy was flowing like crazy inside, it felt like it was all emanating from the gut area. My
head was on the carpet and my gut was much higher since I was still on my knees, this felt
right as it had so many times before. Energy was flowing from my gut down through my head
and out. But the energy also radiated outwards in all directions at the same time, like a sacred
sun was shining in my gut. It was extremely intense and overwhelming and continued for at
least 15 minutes.
I have no idea what is going on and I don't care. It feels very right and it makes everything
sacred, my own body, and everything else in the world. It's almost a mystical experience at
times to be alive.
I'm completely filled by this experience, it's overflowing.
I love you.
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:
lucid, clear and beautiful, Amadeus.
Reality touches itself, the 'I' doesn't know.
Like a madala, with all its vividness, gone!
No practice/method/approach (Source:
Forum Topic:
http://now-for-
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26273&highlight=#2
6273 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Passerby: Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:33 am Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
So in one sense there is nothing to do...but in another sense there is lots to do
before we are comfortable with impermanence and begin to see it as a friend and
not an enemy. All our lives are a painting on water, each stroke is swallowed by
the waters of time as soon as it is made. But this reality is the reality that allows
true spontenaity, true creativity, true joy...once we live in the radical acceptance of
the radical reality of impermanance.
Love this part.
Just to add:
Many love Presence, the background, the reality behind all appearances. If we can dedicate
the same love towards appearances and to thoughts, I think that will do; for they are one and
the same. Forget about self or no-self if it is confusing. My 2 cents.
Thanks all for the sharing.
The Final Truth (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Passerby: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Are there any others???
Am I not just speaking to myself???
There is nothing I can really know.
Apart from the fact that "I am".
And what I mean by that is that there is this knowingness that is shining right now.
I can't (don't want to) move beyond that.
A person in utter sincerity will realize that whenever he attempts to step out of Isness
(although he can't), there is complete confusion. In truth, he cannot know anything in reality.
If we havent had enough confusion and fear, Isness will not be fully appreciated.
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate
Eternal Witness. is the ultimate identification.
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it is a matter of
living in Beingness or living in constant identification. Beingness flows and identification
stays. Identification is any attempt to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already
non-dual.
I AM is not knowing. I AM is Being. Being thoughts, Being feelings, Being FormsThere

is no separate I from start.
Either there is no you or you are all.

Yougarksoo: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject:
Passerby, your post is great. Thanks.
Quote:
Quote:
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the
Ultimate Eternal Witness. is the ultimate identification.
Doesn't what you are referring to as the ultimate identification only arise if there is a thought
which arises and says "I am the witness." If that thought does not arise or there is no
identification with it once it arises, then there is only awareness itself?
Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking;
Can you explain what you mean here?
Quote:
Which is true?
Amadeus: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
Are there any others???
Am I not just speaking to myself???
There is nothing I can really know.
Apart from the fact that "I am".
And what I mean by that is that there is this knowingness that is shining
right now.
I can't (don't want to) move beyond that.
A person in utter sincerity will realize that whenever he attempts to step out of
Isness (although he can't), there is complete confusion. In truth, he cannot know
anything in reality.
Wow!!!!
I really like the straighforward way you said this Passerby.

And I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote:
Yes, you can't have two masters, either you're at the point where you're letting it all go or
you're still involved in the dream.
Adyashanti said this in another way, he said that just one thought can obscure the truth.
Quote:
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the
Ultimate Eternal Witness. is the ultimate identification.
I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and surprisingly I can't
completely agree because, for me, identification is still another concept that is coming from
the story. There is just this, whether I am this, or whether It simply is, is not really something
I care to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like an "Is".
Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it is a
matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification.
Quote:
Beingness flows and identification stays
.
Well said, as the Buddhists would say, everything is transient, ephemeral.
Quote:
Identification is any attempt to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is
already non-dual.
That's the whole point isn't it.
Spirituality is just another mind movement and so when you see your true nature is
everything and nothing, you're finally able to let that mind movement go and rest in the
"Isness" of it all.
Quote:
I AM is not knowing. I AM is Being. Being thoughts, Being feelings, Being
FormsThere is no separate I from start.
I have realized on several occasions that there is no "I", many great insights and yet the "I"
continues to arise. There is absolutely no problem with this, because I recognize it for what it
is. Just a phantom of an idea that refuses to die even though all identification has been
removed. It's quite stubborn, I suppose ET would say that it has a lot of momentum.
Quote:
Either there is no you or you are all
And the answer can be both, it's a paradox and we can become quite comfortable with that.

Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these,
I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness. is the ultimate identification.
Doesn't what you are referring to as the ultimate identification only arise if there is
a thought which arises and says "I am the witness." If that thought does not arise or
there is no identification with it once it arises, then there is only awareness itself?
Yes you are right! Thoughts or no thoughts doesn't matter as long as there is no identification.
Quote:
Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking;
Can you explain what you mean here?
This is difficult to explain.
It is like awareness is at the same speed as the transients and no separation is detected and
suddenly realization dawn --This is that, always is and always one!
Our mind is very quick in assigning certain 'attributes' to awareness and the attachment to
these attributes distort what awareness really is. As these attributes are hardly exhaustive, it
prevents clarity in seeing.
Quote:
Quote:
Which is true?
They meant the same experience. Another way of saying is When there is no you, you are
all but that implies time and causality. Asif no you is the cause and you are all is the
effect.
Quote:
I have realized on several occasions that there is no "I", many great insights and
yet the "I" continues to arise. There is absolutely no problem with this, because I
recognize it for what it is. Just a phantom of an idea that refuses to die even though
all identification has been removed. It's quite stubborn, I suppose ET would say
that it has a lot of momentum.
Yes it is and the power of propensities is grossly underestimated. The momentum resulted in
creating separation and subtle intentionality. Just don't get too 'stilled'... Even stillness is
movement. Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous. It is the sensation as if nothing
is moving due to effortlessness and spontaneity. In essence, everything flows, nothing
remains.
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I
am the Ultimate Eternal Witness. is the ultimate identification.
I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and surprisingly I
can't completely agree because, for me, identification is still another concept that is
coming from the story. There is just this, whether I am this, or whether It simply is,
is not really something I care to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like
an "Is".
Yes but there are gaps. When thought is, feeling is, form is, there is naturally no I.
The entire stream is.
This clarity is a running flow experience that cannot be stop or broken down; and Isness like
what you have described in the post when truth takes over, is not a mere surface experience
of not adding or subtracting anything from this moment. It is an experience of immense
realness, clarity and aliveness -- a depth so immensely deep that it can rest upon itself in
entirety.
This has to do with a quantum leap in perception, it is not about effort. Otherwise effort will
be tremendous and scary.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:43 am Post subject:
Quote:
Thoughts or no thoughts doesn't matter as long as there is no identification.
yea, someone could go on thinking forever, yet never identify with the thought stream.
Thanks for joining the conversation.
Amadeus: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:03 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not
all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness. is the ultimate
identification.
I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and
surprisingly I can't completely agree because, for me, identification is
still another concept that is coming from the story. There is just this,
whether I am this, or whether It simply is, is not really something I care
to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like an "Is".
Yes but there are gaps. When thought is, feeling is, form is, there is naturally
no I. The entire stream is.
That sounds good to me.
Quote:
This clarity is a running flow experience that cannot be stop or broken down; and
Isness like what you have described in the post when truth takes over, is not a
mere surface experience of not adding or subtracting anything from this moment.
It is an experience of immense realness, clarity and aliveness -- a depth so
immensely deep that it can rest upon itself in entirety.
Yes, the more I accept life as it is, the more alive I feel, the more real it appears to be.
Quote:
This has to do with a quantum leap in perception, it is not about effort.
Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or it doesn't. The only
thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it may just be the flip side of it already
arising.
Eseward: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:08 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous.
Right action, as described by Lao Tse and Jesus.

Amadeus wrote:
Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or it doesn't.
The only thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it may just be the flip
side of it already arising.
Whichever way we go, it is the same. There is no beyond, there is only creation of more
momentum. When we understand the workings of momentum and 'see' how doings create
more imprints, we merely allow momentum to die in its own accord through non-action
without re-enforcement. The sense of self must arise because clarity is always there, so when
momentum is, sense of self is.
Clarity cannot lie...

eseward wrote:
Passerby wrote:
Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous.
Right action, as described by Lao Tse and Jesus.
Yes! I love Lao Tze...

Amadeus: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:05 am Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or

it doesn't. The only thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it
may just be the flip side of it already arising.
Whichever way we go, it is the same. There is no beyond, there is only creation of
more momentum. When we understand the workings of momentum and 'see'
how doings create more imprints, we merely allow momentum to die in its own
accord through non-action without re-enforcement. The sense of self must arise
because clarity is always there, so when momentum is, sense of self is.
Clarity cannot lie...
I really liked and recognized this part.
This Moment As It Is (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Claudia: Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: This Moment As It Is
Quote:
This Moment As It Is
You can become aware of awareness as the background to all your

sense perceptions, all your thinking. Becoming aware of awareness is
the arising of inner stillness.
Any disturbing noise can be as helpful as silence. How?
By dropping your inner resistance to the noise, by allowing it to be

as it is, this acceptance also takes you into that realm of inner
peace that is stillness.
Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what

form it takes -- you are still, you are at peace.
From: Stillness Speaks, by Eckhart Tolle

Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what form it takes --
you are still, you are at peace.
This sentence is conditional, "whenever you do such and such, then you can be still and at
peace" and of course this is true.
but it's a relative truth
because when you fully realize your true nature, there are no more conditions, there is only
ever your true nature, no matter how you are acting or reacting or what you are feeling
since your true nature is what you are, how could you possibly lose it?
AnEternalNow: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:16 am Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what form
it takes -- you are still, you are at peace.
This sentence is conditional, "whenever you do such and such, then you can be still
and at peace" and of course this is true.
but it's a relative truth
because when you fully realize your true nature, there are no more conditions,
there is only ever your true nature, no matter how you are acting or reacting or
what you are feeling
since your true nature is what you are, how could you possibly lose it?
Hi Amadeus, yes that's true. But is this is a logical deduction or a direct experience?
------
Passerby wrote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking
Amadeus wrote:
Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.
Are you aware of the myriad processes and intricate balances that are necessary to
keep your body healthy.
Are we aware of this intelligence, of this life?
Are we truly in touch in with it?
Is this intelligence/life, just in our body or is it in every living and non living thing
on the planet and beyond.
Do we really realize how vast we are?
If everything is already intelligent, allow transients to come and go, they are more intelligent
than what the I thought. Experience the full presence of all transients.
Amadeus: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:11 am Post subject:
Hi AEN,
To answer your question, it comes from direct experience, that's all I ever talk about, it all
comes from within.
Could you explain a bit more what "transients" are?

AnEternalNow: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Hi AEN,
To answer your question, it comes from direct experience, that's all I ever talk
about, it all comes from within.
Could you explain a bit more what "transients" are?
Transients are orphan thoughts, momentary feelings, short-lived phenomenon
What is your own, you are not conscious of.

Forum Topic:
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: What is your own, you are not
conscious of.
Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.
Are you aware of the myriad processes and intricate balances that are necessary to keep your
body healthy.
Are we aware of this intelligence, of this life?
Are we truly in touch in with it?
Is this intelligence/life, just in our body or is it in every living and non living thing on the
planet and beyond.
Do we really realize how vast we are?

Amadeus: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:21 am Post subject:
The inner body
I personnally think this is the most beautiful message Eckhart Tolle is offering us: instead of
being our enemy, our body can be our greatest helper in reaching enlightenment. It can help
us in contacting our true inner Self. Let's close our eyes in meditation and feel how
consciousness is permeating every cell and every atom of our body. Let's observe from
the inside our body and feel It is there. Let's not think or speculate about it. Feel it. It
can be felt right at this very moment. We can feel it being the cause of everything. We
can feel that if It would not be there, things would not work. By feeling and observing
this we get immediate and instant knowledge about It. If we'll concentrate on this inner Body
we will reach enlightenment in the end. For in contacting Consciousness our mind makes the
shift from form to the formless.
http://home.wxs.nl/~brouw724/EckhartTolle.html
An Eternal Now: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: What is your own, you
are not conscious of.
Amadeus wrote:
The inner body
I personnally think this is the most beautiful message Eckhart Tolle is offering us:
instead of being our enemy, our body can be our greatest helper in reaching
enlightenment. It can help us in contacting our true inner Self. Let's close our eyes
in meditation and feel how consciousness is permeating every cell and every
atom of our body. Let's observe from the inside our body and feel It is there.
Let's not think or speculate about it. Feel it. It can be felt right at this very
moment. We can feel it being the cause of everything. We can feel that if It
would not be there, things would not work. By feeling and observing this we get
immediate and instant knowledge about It. If we'll concentrate on this inner Body
we will reach enlightenment in the end. For in contacting Consciousness our mind
makes the shift from form to the formless.
http://home.wxs.nl/~brouw724/EckhartTolle.html
Yes... it is the intensity and the degree of clarity
Here's something for sharing...
(Ck is my friend)
Ck: john, how to practise vipassana in daily life?

Thusness: just observe every sensation.
Thusness: until one day u are able to experience "emptiness as form".
Thusness: then it becomes effortless.
Thusness: Truthz u cannot imagine the bliss when one clearly experiences that.
Thusness: but there is no point to over stress anything.
Thusness:
Ck: Thusness just observe every sensation... give me an eg?
Thusness: when u breath, u don't have to care what is the right way of breathing, whether u
breath hard or soft, smooth or fine...just experience as much clarity as u can...just that
experience...regardless of what it is like.
Thusness: same for all other experiences.
Ck: wot abt sound? hows it?
Thusness: when u hear, just the sound...the totality of the sound. There is no how but just to
do away with all abitary thoughts. Hear the sound as clear as u can be.
Ck: then wot abt thots?
Ck: thots r v sticky
Thusness: thoughts seldom arise if the practice is correct. If it arises, then not to chase after
its meaning. Not to answer urself what it means, not to dwell in 'what'...then u will resort to
just the moment of awareness.
Ck: when i try to be just openly aware, i notice that i jump from sense to sense
Ck: like one moment hearing, then touch, etc
Thusness: that is okie.
Thusness: our nature is so.
Ck: wots the rite way to do it
Thusness: don't think that u should concentrate.
Thusness: ur only duty is to sense with as much clarity as possible.
Ck: and for all the sensations, i dun dwell in the 'what'?
Thusness: ur mind is looking for a way, a method
Thusness: but what that is needed is only the clarity.
Thusness: however because our mind is so molded and affect by our habitual propensities, it
becomes difficult what that is direct and simple.
Thusness: just stop asking 'how', 'what', 'why'.
Thusness: and submerge into the moment.
Thusness: and experience.
Thusness: i perfer u to describe.
Thusness: not to ask how, what, why, when, where and who.
Thusness: only this is necessary.
Ck: ok
Thusness: if u practice immediately, u will understand.
Thusness: if u entertain who, what, where, when and how, u create more propensities and dull
ur own luminosity.
------
(AEN = me)
(10:07 PM) Thusness: tell me what u think is awareness?

(10:07 PM) Thusness: in ur own words
(10:07 PM) Thusness: just say
(10:08 PM) AEN: just the knowingness, the sensation or thoughts etc
(10:09 PM) Thusness: look at the skin of ur hands
(10:09 PM) AEN: ok
(10:09 PM) Thusness: looks real?
(10:09 PM) AEN: yea
(10:09 PM) Thusness: touch it...feel it as much as u can
(10:10 PM) Thusness: can u don't think of a background
(10:10 PM) AEN: yea
(10:10 PM) Thusness: and know that, that is awareness?
(10:10 PM) AEN: ya
(10:10 PM) Thusness: that is all.
Forum Topic: Emotions and Enlightenment

An Eternal Now: 10 June 2007 12:44 AM
Hi people, this is one of my replies to 'january' from the Atheism forum, I do appreciate any
comments and I would also like to encourage Buddhists to discuss there as well.
----------------
so where does buddhism wisdom leads us to now?
quote:
Originally posted by january:

what is all the unlimited consconcious thing and what does finding them lead us to?
persoanlly, i achieve for myself high level of understanding and peacefulness about
things without learning all the deep deep level of teachings of buddhism.
i also like to ask eternal .. do you still experience emotions nowadays.. like surprise, fear,
embarrasment, nervousness? are you a buddhist in temple or do you work in modern
society?
i still experience nervousness and embarrasment, fear but from psychology i can
manage them still ok.
To ask about me is irrelevant here.. I am now 17 years old and I am still studying as a
student. Anyway surprise is ok (I don't see any reason why a person, even someone
enlightened cannot be surprised), fear, I still have fear at times (but generally I don't get
feared easily perhaps that's my character), embarrassment.. well, over the years I am no
longer as attached to ego, but I guess it still happens at times.. nervousness, sometimes it
arises -- but when it arises I very quickly remain mindfulness, awareness, just watching the
thoughts and physical sensatoins come and go, all these fear, nervousness and all those
feelings just come and go and is allowed to be as they are -- I no longer identify with them
but is just there as witnessing, participatory presence, like a mirror that neither rejects or
pursues reflections, all appearances arises and passes instantaneously leaving no trace in the
mirror, yet the mirror expresses the luminuos clarity of all appearances. The mirror (i.e our
Buddha Nature) simply reflects all things as it is and is at one with all things it reflects.
But I think it is irrelevant to ask me about this, because as I said, I am not yet enlightened
therefore I cannot represent an enlightened person's character. One who enters deep into non-
duality is constantly in a state of fearless samadhi, he experiences no self and no fear. (this is
what those enlightened told me from their experience) It is difficult to imagine such a state,
but once duality is completely seen through as illusion, the mind/body is completely dropped
off (disidentified), there is no longer an 'inside' experiencing the 'outside world' -- one can no
longer experience fear due to illusions of self. This does not mean they cannot run for their
lives when they need to, but whatever their action is, their action only arises spontaneously
out of Prajna, with no dualistic attachment involved. I am of course no where close to that
yet. This is about the Deathless, one cannot reach the Deathless state through any means
other than the dharma and attaining Insights/Enlightenment to the nature of reality.
It is possible through mundane wisdom, psychology, and shamatha to gain better control over
one's emotions, have peacefulness, become a happier person, etc. However that is like
treating 'surface problems' -- for example, a weed is growing on the ground, you use a stone
to suppress it to stop it from growing. Or you trim it.. or.... (etc) You are developing skills to
deal with emotions, and you know how to control them. But this is nevertheless still a limited
skill, you can improve it but you'll never reach a point where you can use such wisdom to
deal with all kinds of situations. And sometimes even if you put a stone on the grass, it will
grow back or some other grasses will grow, because you never treat the problem at the root.
You will still experience these negative emotions in many situations, when you lost
something you are attached to deeply, or perhaps you know you got cancer and is dying in a
few months, just an example. It will be difficult to manage then, because these skills are
limited and depends relatively on how identified you are to those things (i.e your neighbour
died you may still be ok, but if it happens to your family or yourself you'll be more affected).
Anyway as my friend Thusness said, 'growing wisdom' and 'prajna wisdom' is different,
though 'growing wisdom' is very important as well.
That is treating the problem on the surface -- the Root of the problem is not uprooted, the root
of the problem is ignorance of reality. With this ignorance of reality there will constantly be
Dukkha - even when you do not have negative emotions, there will always be subtle dualistic
attraction, aversion, and delusions (often translated as 'greed', 'hatred', 'ignorance' but these
are not very good translations and are limited to the emotional model, not non dual model) all
the time. This is not just a matter of conscious control and management of emotions and
mental wellbeing. It sometimes requires a lot of Mindfulness/Awareness practise and
ultimately transcendental Insights into the nature of reality.
However, to even talk about emotions is not good enough, though it is true that many
negative emotions have their main problem/root in Ignorance of Reality, due to dualistic
seeking and aversion and delusion, they still cannot describe the true essence of Buddhism. If
going by getting rid of 'greed, hatred, ignorance' and not 'fundamental dualistic attraction,
fundamental dualistic aversion, and delusion of duality' as the fundamental thing in
Buddhism, then anyone with certain levels of self control can be considered as highly
enlightened, which is not the case. It is also possible for fundamental dualistic attraction,
aversion and dukkha (suffering) to arise in us all the time without displaying major negative
emotion outbreak, in fact to anyone unenlightened this is inevitable.
When Buddhism talks about fundamental attraction, aversion and delusion (a.k.a greed,
hatred, ignorance) it is dealing with something much much more fundamental:
quote:
Source: 31. Models of the Stages of Enlightenment, III -- The Emotional Models and The
Theravada Four Path Model, which is a very good read and states the usual dogmas and
ignorance that even some Buddhists fall prey to.. regarding shallow understanding of terms
such as 'Greed, Hatred, Ignorance' rather than in terms of Reality and Non-Duality
Anyway I wanted to quote this regarding fundamental attraction and aversion:
...What they are attempting to say is that the sense of the observer, center point, continuous
and separate subject, watcher or however you want to describe the sense that there is some
Self at the center of all this stuff that so compelling seems to divided into Self and Other is, in
fact, just a bunch of sensations, and when these begin to be seen as they are, the sense of how
special the center point is begins to lose its grip on perception, which begins to become
wider, more inclusive, and more even in its basic treatment of phenomena. Thus, as there
doesnt seem to be so much of a this side and a that side, attempts to get away from that side
when it is bad, get to that side when it is good, or just tune out to the whole thing when it is
boring diminish at some basic perceptual level, and so the system functions better as it is
better at realistically interpreting the information coming into it....
Please re-read 'The Four Noble Truths' to get a better idea of what exactly is fundamental
attraction and aversion.
Lastly, in Buddhism though we always talk about Liberation from Suffering, it is equally
important to mention the effects of practising Buddhism in Positive terms -- the development
of Clarity, Highest Everlasting Unconditioned Bliss and Rapture, Equanimity, Energy,
Wisdom, Tranquility, Concentration, etc (also see Seven Factors of Enlightenment, info
available on the net and on 'Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Dharma Dan)
An Eternal Now: 11 June 2007 01:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by maggot:

Cease your emotions
No one will affect you
quote:
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Cease your life and nothing can affect you.
Unfortunately neither the above has anything to do with insights of non-duality (of subject-
object, separate self and other) leading to the undoing of the 12 chains.
'Cease your emotion' is a little vague. Certain times simply relinquishing emotion is enough,
certain times not.
Nevertheless they still does not describe the Insight part of practise, the necessity to be aware
of our moment to moment realities including our emotions, the nature of our emotions, and
the nature of non dual.
When insight is developed to certain levels, all phenomena including our emotions are seen
to be self-liberating.
Cycle just posted some quotes from Bhante Gunaratana (his 'Mindfulness in Plain English' is
a Must Read) in the 'Daily Buddhist Verses' topic today which I think is very good:
quote:
Originally posted by cycle:

A large portion ( of meditators) wants to meditate for "relaxation" - they want a quick
and cheap fix to cope with their daily lives. There are many psyhiatrists and
psychologists who use meditaton for such purposes - as a method of relieving anxieties
and tensions. Today, the word "meditation" has been misused and abused. It is now
been misunderstood. There was one occasion when someone wanted to practice
vipassana (insight meditation) but do not wish to have anything to do with mindfulness!
How can this be?
~ Ven. Bhante Henepola Gunaratana
quote:
Originally posted by cycle:

Question: Were there instances where meditators say, "Well, look here - I want to learn
meditation only and don't want to listen to what the Buddha says."?
Ven. Gunaratana : Sure, in fact some have requested only for vipassana and to exclude
the Dhamma. Here, there is some misunderstanding of what vipassana is. You cannot
study vipassana without dealing with the core teachings of the Buddha. Therefore, we
don't use labels and words. We just explain the truth and soon they will realise the
interconnectedness of all aspects of meditation. To those who are really fanatic and rigid
- they will eventually drop out. But if they want to persist, then we teach simple type of
meditation and tell them that their meditation will not be successful and meaningful.
You cannot divorce meditation from the Dhamma and there are many serious
meditators who know this.
In conversation with Ven. Gunaratana, For You vol 215 03/2007
So January's view 'persoanlly, i achieve for myself high level of understanding and
peacefulness about things without learning all the deep deep level of teachings of buddhism.'
is therefore, obviously false. One cannot hope to realise any liberation without Dharma,
without knowing the nature of Reality, without practising Insight.
Most forms of meditation (i.e yoga, qi gong, etc) are only Shamatha meditation, and will not
be able to produce any insights and awakening. They help one to focus and produce
calmness, helps one's psychological wellbeing, but does not lead to liberation and end of
sufferings.
p.s. One doesn't have to learn very deep teachings of the dharma, but one has to practise
Insight, and this is the crucial thing. With insight, everything - even 'deep dharmas' are
known through one's own experience. Deep academic studies will not help.
Just my 2 cts...
In a conventional sense, emotions cannot be stopped. Just like all the other sensations that
one feels.
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go
away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the
behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is
'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not
find
As a side point, actually, Dzogchen is a very profound teaching. It is impossible to

understand the practice before the realisation of non-duality and subsequently spontaneous
manifestation. I just felt that some people if they get too attracted to Dzogchen without proper
understanding and realisations will only mislead themselves. Dzogchen can only be
understood and practice correctly after passing through the initial experience of non-duality.
Before that, it may lead to further re-enforcement of 'karmic doing'.
Just my opinion.
quote:

Just my 2 cts...
In a conventional sense, emotions cannot be stopped. Just like all the other sensations
that one feels.
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately
will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to
the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to

behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek
and you shall not find
As a side point, actually, Dzogchen is a very profound teaching. It is impossible to

understand the practice before the realisation of non-duality and subsequently
spontaneous manifestation. I just felt that some people if they get too attracted to
Dzogchen without proper understanding and realisations will only mislead themselves.
Dzogchen can only be understood and practice correctly after passing through the
initial experience of non-duality. Before that, it may lead to further re-enforcement of
'karmic doing'.
Just my opinion.
Yes! Well said!
Any movement or reaction to anything -- even emotions, whether to cease or react with the
emotions is already falling into the trap of 'dualistic fundamental aversion' and 'dualistic
fundamental attraction'. Therefore it is dangerous to say that Buddhism is about 'getting rid of
emotions' (the effort to forcefully get rid of emotion, which is behavior modification, is
merely just more 'doings' and 'action'), but rather, a true practitioner merely experiences/sees
Emotions AS IT IS.
Rather than seeking to cease emotions, creating even more reactions and dualistic aversion,
we should simply accept the emotions as it is, being 'participatory presence', just being
mindful/aware, yet not getting involved/attached in them.
Yet this still isn't quite right... for ultimately in terms of non-duality, there is no surrender and
acceptance. In reality, there only is moment to moment Spontaneous Manifestation. There is
just one whole happening. This requires insight to 'see'.
I fully agree that Dzogchen is profound and subtle. Dzogchen is definitely beyond reach of
anyone who has not had a true realisation of our nature. As a matter of fact, realising Self-
Liberation* is only for those whose level of non dual insights has reached its peak, according
to Thusness.
*Note for readers: Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from
delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued
thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place
in three main ways). (Source: http://eliascapriles.dzogchen.ru/self-liberation.pdf)
Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm
...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for more
than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to
continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary
is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there
being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one
maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow
waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the
senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of
thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not
succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this
reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something
considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the
wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction
whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction
between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be
attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains
thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the
ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare
attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or
bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the
moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in
remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to
be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing
it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention,
without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the
senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the
presence of the pure awareness.
It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison
thought or to block its flow. It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention,
without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a
result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course
of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment
of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly,
and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-
distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction,
if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and
forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through
relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this
continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the
moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's
own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear...
quote:

[b]...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for
more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to
continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary
is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there
being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one
maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow
waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the
senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of
thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not
succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this
reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something
considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the
wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction
whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction
between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be
attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains
thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the
ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare
attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or
bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the
moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in
remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to
be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing
it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention,
without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the
senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the
presence of the pure awareness.
It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison
thought or to block its flow. It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention,
without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a
result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course
of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment
of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly,
and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-
distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction,
if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and
forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through
relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this
continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the
moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's
own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear...[/b]
Thusness thinks this is very good.. it is about self liberation.
Here's more..
...."Therefore, maintaining the presence of one's own State and observing the wave of
thought, without judging whether this presence is more or less clear, and without
thinking of the calm state and the wave of thought in terms of the acceptance of the one
and the rejection of the other, absolutely not conditioned by wanting to change anything
whatsoever, one continues without becoming distracted, and without forgetting to keep
ones awareness present; governing oneself in this way one gathers the essence of the
practice."....
...In general, in Dzogchen, the Teaching of spontaneous self-perfection, one speaks of

the self-liberation of the way of seeing, of the way of meditating, of the way of behaving,
and of the fruit, but this self-liberation must arise through the presence of awareness. In
particular, the self-liberation of the way of behaving absolutely cannot arise if it is not
based on the presence of awareness. So, if one does not succeed in making the self-
liberation of one's way of behaving precise, one cannot overcome the distinction
between sessions of sitting meditation and one's daily life. When we speak of the self-
liberation of one's way of behaving as the fundamental principle of all the tantra, the
agama, and the upadesa of Dzogchen, this pleases the young people of today a great
deal. But some of them do not know that the real basis of self-liberation is the presence
of awareness, and many of them, even if they understand this a little in theory, and
know how to speak of it, nevertheless, just the same have the defect of not applying it. If
a sick person knows perfectly well the properties and functions of a medicine and is also
expert in giving explanations about it, but doesn't ever take the medicine, he or she can
never get well. In the same way, throughout limitless time we have been suffering from
the serious illness of being subject to the dualistic condition, and the only remedy for
this illness is real knowledge of the state of self-liberation without falling into
limitations....
In my opinion, most of what longchen posted about non-duality are all of very good qualities.
quote:
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go
away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
This is most profound! Not only there is no I apart from the arising and ceasing, there is
no mine in all manifestations. The entire view of I and mine is a distorted view from
start.
An 'I' observing phenomenon happening is 'learnt'. We are molded by our existing mode of
perception to 'see' in terms of subject-object division. So much so that even though reality in
truth is undivided, we are unable to experience that "there is mere happening, there is no I nor
mine".
quote:
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the
behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
.
.
.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is
'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not
find
Cool! There is no stopping. When condition is, manifestation is. Any attempt to stop is doing,
is self. The sadness is just a mirror that serves as a gender reminder of the latent deep; a
subtle identification. Nothing needs to be done other than allowing our own pristine-
emptiness nature to manifest spontaneously and unreservedly. Whether there is sadness or
"peace", still unreserved spontaneity of our luminous nature. Therefore there is no movement
and that alone dissolves all.
Lastly, cycle after cycles of furnace until the understanding of self-liberation reaches
permanent lucidity. Nothing needs be done, just a quantum leap in insight.
quote:

[i]
Truly enlightening. Good stuff!
Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that
both ocean and wave are one and the same.
Forum Topic: Discernment
JonLS: 14 June 2007 01:59 AM
Some people on these boards may speak of discernment.
There is a danger in this.
Because other people may get the idea that discernment is a good thing worth striving for.
And that would be a mistake.
You can't find discernment.
Discernment finds you.
It's only when you let go of looking for anything, that something like discernment, may arise
spontaneously from within.
Sometimes letting go of the search, of the need for future, can be most difficult.
We really want our stories to end well.

quote:
Some people on these boards may speak of discernment.

There is a danger in this.
Because other people may get the idea that discernment is a good thing worth striving
for.
And that would be a mistake.
True!
quote:
You can't find discernment.
Discernment finds you.
therefore
even when there is complete letting go, discernment need not arise.
Effortlessness allows oneness but is not the cause of discernment.
quote:
It's only when you let go of looking for anything, that something like discernment, may
arise spontaneously from within.
Sometimes letting go of the search, of the need for future, can be most difficult.
We really want our stories to end well.
Experiment, try hard, experience and know that the entire holding is 'You'. 'You' do not know
and cannot 'let go'.
With the arising of wisdom that sees that there is no 'I' apart from arising and ceasing,
spontaneity is seen everywhere. All else is/are holdings.
By the way,
Are raising hands, walking and blinking eyes the act of will? Is there spontaneity in these
actions?
JonLS: 14 June 2007 02:14 PM
quote:
By the way,
Are raising hands, walking and blinking eyes the act of will? Is there spontaneity in these
actions?
Who's will???
When you truly have the insight that there is no "you", the question of will doesn't seem to
hold much water anymore.
JonLS: 14 June 2007 02:28 PM
quote:
'You' do not know and cannot 'let go'.
It seems truly remarkable that you need to experience your own non existence in order to
truly live freely and well.
Otherwise, you're trapped in the prison of thought and "doing" and needing to accomplish
something, or needing things to unfold the way you want or need them to.
Liberation lies in simply allowing the present moment to unfold as it will.
As Byron Katie says, "When I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time.
Forum Topic: The Central Sun
JonLS: 15 June 2007 12:40 AM
The Central Sun
I've spoken many times about the inner dimension, how, when it used to open/arise before, it
was very overwhelming and painful because it felt so corrosive.
Well the pain and corrosiveness seems to be gone, but the "overwhelmingness" of this
when it opens is still present.
There's something else that seems to be happening now, I seem to be aware of the "flip side"
effect of this "Central Sun" as I'm feeling like calling it now.
It's not a "Central Sun" of heat and light though, it's a "Central Sun" of pure beingness. It is
whole and complete all by Itself, nothing else is really needed.
The "flip side" effect is that when there is energy movement from within, or when something
energic emanates from there, then it is felt outwardly as feelings, thoughts that are directly
influenced by this pure beingness at the core of my being.
When this pure beingness burst forth this morning I was so taken aback by it that I lost all
perspective and was totally lost to the point where I almost felt ill from being totally
disoriented. But at no time did this feel wrong, it felt completely right, as if the feelings of the
physical/emotional vehicle didn't really matter at all.
So when I say I don't believe a word that I say, I'm really surrendering this outer reality in
favour of the inner reality of this "Central Sun" which seems to be the "All" of everything.
This is what truly holds all my interest now.
It feels like it's the source of everything and it's also the manifestation itself, but the
manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really feels
to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.
I'm really doing a rotten job of expressing this because it's completely overwhelming and
totally beyond description.
It also makes me feel that all experience is not really that important and yet this inner
experience is so totally overwhelming that I have to admit not knowing whether I'm coming
or going and don't really care at all either.
Anywho, I would like to conclude by saying I love you.

Hi JonLS,
Just my opinions...certainly not definitive
To me, there is no difference between and no inner and outerr reality. Everything feels right...
even the discomfort and pain is due to just this Isness. That means, whether we 'think' it is or
not... in reality, manifestation is spontaneous.
Surrendering is the doing of the self. But the act of surrendering is also spontaneously
manifesting. Seems like a paradox... but everything is just this spontaneity regardless of
whether the mind percieve it as such.
This is very hard for me to describe. There is no inner core and outer experience.... but a
continous expression or 'fruition' of the 'experimental nature' that before expression feels like
'raw state of intentions'.
IMO, there is no inner or outer... that is the thinking mind interpreting the experience. That
means the inner and outer reality is deduced after the experience. However, the expereince
itself may not be characterised by 'innerness'.

quote:

The Central Sun
I've spoken many times about the inner dimension, how, when it used to open/arise
before, it was very overwhelming and painful because it felt so corrosive.
Well the pain and corrosiveness seems to be gone, but the "overwhelmingness" of
this when it opens is still present.
There's something else that seems to be happening now, I seem to be aware of the "flip
side" effect of this "Central Sun" as I'm feeling like calling it now.
It's not a "Central Sun" of heat and light though, it's a "Central Sun" of pure
beingness. It is whole and complete all by Itself, nothing else is really needed.
The "flip side" effect is that when there is energy movement from within, or when
something energic emanates from there, then it is felt outwardly as feelings, thoughts
that are directly influenced by this pure beingness at the core of my being.
When this pure beingness burst forth this morning I was so taken aback by it that I lost
all perspective and was totally lost to the point where I almost felt ill from being totally
disoriented. But at no time did this feel wrong, it felt completely right, as if the feelings
of the physical/emotional vehicle didn't really matter at all.
So when I say I don't believe a word that I say, I'm really surrendering this outer reality
in favour of the inner reality of this "Central Sun" which seems to be the "All" of
everything. This is what truly holds all my interest now.
manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really
feels to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.
I'm really doing a rotten job of expressing this because it's completely overwhelming
and totally beyond description.
It also makes me feel that all experience is not really that important and yet this inner
experience is so totally overwhelming that I have to admit not knowing whether I'm
coming or going and don't really care at all either.
Anywho, I would like to conclude by saying I love you.
Hi Jonls,
Would like to share with u my view. There are good and bad news.
1. There is health issue.

2. The bond of pain and disease are deconstructed to a very high degree.
3. Non-identification to that health issue becomes the door of experiencing the further depth
of pure beingness.
4. The intensity of that pure sensation that arises due to that health issue almost reaches a
point of transcendence. A very high degree of clarity of sensation.
Though deconstructed the issue is still there. So do take care of yourself, din.
quote:

manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really
feels to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.
Now I would like to comment from a practitioner point of view:
The intensity of that pure beingness is itself a manifestation. It is needless to compare as there
will also come a point where high intensity of clarity will be experienced for all sensations.
So try not to let the 'intensity' creates the layering of inner and outer.
quote:

Hi JonLS,
Just my opinions...certainly not definitive
To me, there is no difference between and no inner and outerr reality. Everything feels
right... even the discomfort and pain is due to just this Isness. That means, whether we
'think' it is or not... in reality, manifestation is spontaneous.
This is very hard for me to describe. There is on inner core and outer experience.... but
a continous expression or 'fruition' of the 'experimental nature' that before expression
feels like 'raw state of intentions'.
IMO, there is no inner or outer... that is the thinking mind interpreting the experience.
That means the inner and outer reality is deduced [b]after the experience. However, the
expereince itself may not be characterised by 'innerness'.[/b]
Must be intoxicated by the spontaniety and openess but just don't miss that clarity, the texture
and fabric of awareness as forms....
Good Luck!
The mind likes to categorize and is quick to identify.
When we think that awareness is permanent, we fail to 'see' the impermanence aspect of it.
When we see it as formless, we missed the vividness of the fabric and texture of awareness as
forms.
When we are attached to ocean, we seek a waveless ocean, not knowing that both ocean and
wave are one and the same.
Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it
becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.
quote:
Must be intoxicated by the spontaniety and openess but just don't miss that clarity, the
texture and fabric of awareness as forms....
Good Luck!
Hehheh...
Thanks for the reminder...

quote:
Hi Jonls,
Would like to share with u my view. There are good and bad news.
1. There is health issue.

2. The bond of pain and disease are deconstructed to a very high degree.
3. Non-identification to that health issue becomes the door of experiencing the further
depth of pure beingness.
4. The intensity of that pure sensation that arises due to that health issue almost reaches
a point of transcendence. A very high degree of clarity of sensation.
Though deconstructed the issue is still there. So do take care of yourself, din.
Oops... i didn't know that there might be a health issue.
Take care Jon.

quote:
Oops... i didn't know that there might be a health issue.
Take care Jon.
I shouldn't have put it that way. Got carried away.
Sorry Jonls...might be false alarm.

JonLS: 16 June 2007 01:05 PM
quote:
I shouldn't have put it that way. Got carried away.
Sorry Jonls...might be false alarm.
Hi Thusness,
There is no health issue related to this transformation of consciousness as Eckhart calls it.
Everything is being deconstructed, I'm totally lost and yet I can't seem to take this lostness
very seriously.
What you said here sounds very important to me:
quote:
The mind likes to categorize and is quick to identify.
When we think that awareness is permanent, we fail to 'see' the impermanence aspect of it.
When we see it as formless, we missed the vividness of the fabric and texture of awareness as
forms.
When we are attached to ocean, we seek a waveless ocean, not knowing that both ocean and
wave are one and the same.
Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it
becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.
The mind is indeed always grasping, it can't stand the openness or the absolute emptiness.
quote:
The mind is indeed always grasping, it can't stand the openness or the absolute
emptiness.
Yes but when there is permanent lucidity in seeing awareness as forms in spontaneous
manifestation, one find delights in emptiness and no-self.
I like the post u wrote in the thread "when truth takes over". Do u find the same intensity of
presence in breathing, swallowing saliva, when ur feet touches the ground, hearing the
drumbeats of footsteps...?
quote:

.
.
This is very hard for me to describe.
Missed this part:

There is the deep realisation of no-self as non-dual nature and impermance as the
spontaneous nature of awareness, still the not so good aspect, i.e -- the inceasant function of
the consciousness to form imprints upon itself, is left out as part of the nature...hehe....
Perhaps you were to add 'imprints and propensities' into part of its nature and see that the
impact is as great as the first 2 doors "no-self and impermanence"; then the bits and pieces
may to fall into place.
The third door - suffering.

The insight into the incessant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself.
These are the 3 dharma seals. In a moment of arising, all these characteristics come into play
and that is why it is hard to explain. To truly 'do nothing', 'imprints and propensities' must
also be correctly understood like no-self and impermanence. Otherwise there is subtle pre-
conscious rejection and unknowingly we re-enforced f imprints.
So in truth when the insight into our true nature isnt there, there is no true non-action. We
cannot surrender to what is in an ultimate sense as there is no separation in the first place;
either there is true no-self spontaneity or isnt. All else are skillful means devised to bring
about the realization of our buddha nature.
Hope this helps to explain in a conventional sense to the mind.
Just for sharing!

quote:
Missed this part:

There is the deep realisation of no-self as non-dual nature and impermance as the
spontaneous nature of awareness, still the not so good aspect, i.e -- the inceasant
function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself, is left out as part of the
nature...hehe....
Perhaps you were to add 'imprints and propensities' into part of its nature and see that
the impact is as great as the first 2 doors "no-self and impermanence"; then the bits and
pieces may to fall into place.
[b]The third door - suffering.

The insight into the incessant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself.
These are the 3 dharma seals. In a moment of arising, all these characteristics come into play
and that is why it is hard to explain. To truly 'do nothing', 'imprints and propensities' must
also be correctly understood like no-self and impermanence. Otherwise there is subtle pre-
conscious rejection and unknowingly we re-enforced f imprints.
So in truth when the insight into our true nature isnt there, there is no true non-action. We
cannot surrender to what is in an ultimate sense as there is no separation in the first place;
either there is true no-self spontaneity or isnt. All else are skillful means devised to bring
about the realization of our buddha nature.
Hope this helps to explain in a conventional sense to the mind.
Just for sharing!

[/b]
I see... Thanks a lot, Thusness

quote:

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
Sometimes, I am amazed how intense awareness is and how fully I am aware of and fully
inhabiting the body.
Sometimes it is so intense, there is so much energy, that the body itself seems to be
overwhelmed.
Yes nothing can express it. Just don't let our perceptions and interpretations step in to restrict
the all pervadingness!...
JonLS: 18 June 2007 03:05 AM
quote:
Yes nothing can express it. Just don't let our perceptions and interpretations step in to
restrict the all pervadingness!...
Good point!
The mind just loves to grasp!

Forum Topic: Movement and thought (Source: http://now-
for-
Claudia: Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: Movement and thought
The other day, I had a chore to do and I resisted doing it for about an hour. The thought
would come in to go take care of the strawberries and then I would resist it, I wanted to read
the net or whatever.
Then, I found myself getting up with no thought happening, and inside I said "oh, i guess it's
time to take care of the berries" and that's what I did.
It happened again similarly the next day. Suddenly I got up.
So is this what is meant by action happens with no doer? Consciousness moves me to take
care of the berries?
Often folks on here will say there is no one typing the message, that typing is happening
without thought. I find that hard to understand because so often the message appears to be
egoic and thought based. Aren't 99.9% of our actions thought based? Is that ok? Where does
the thought come from that propels someone to go outside and plant something? Is it egoic or
is it consciousness moving you without thought to do something? Does consciousness move
us with thought?
It's not easy being a puppet, sometimes.

Passerby: Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Movement and thought
Hi Claudia,
Just for sharing:
Claudia wrote:
Then, I found myself getting up with no thought happening, and inside I said "oh, i
guess it's time to take care of the berries" and that's what I did.
It happened again similarly the next day. Suddenly I got up.
So is this what is meant by action happens with no doer?
An 'I' observing phenomenon happening is 'learnt'. We are molded by our existing mode of
perception to 'see' in terms of subject-object division. So much so that even though reality in
truth is undivided, we are unable to experience that "there is mere happening, there is no
doer".
Claudia wrote:
Aren't 99.9% of our actions thought based?
You may want to try this:

Without using the thought of 'I', how is 'I' experienced?
This is similar to observing the gap between 2 moments of thought and shed light into the
possibility of no-thought. This trains the luminosity aspect of consciousness but still the truth
of 'no doer' will not be obvious.
Quote:
Is that ok?
It is okie as after the experience of no-thought, it will not take long for one to realise that
even being 'no-thought' doesn't lead to liberation. One is then taken to observe the nature of
'thought between 2 moments of gap'.
This continues till the insight penetrates deeply into the realisation that 'thought' or no-
thought doesn't really matter. Thought arises and subsides, there is no doer. There is
happening but there never was an 'I'. Thinking that there is an 'I' doing something, is the
problem of all problems.
Hope this doesn't cause more confusions.

The gap (Source: http://now-for-
Forum Topic:
Marcelo: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: The gap
When you're thinking a lot and not aware of the thinking, the reality you see is like a dense
wall.
When you notice thoughts, the wall of reality becomes a dusty surface.
Noticing thoughts leads you to the be aware of the duality of thinking. If there is a state of
thinking, there must also be a state of no-thinking.
Then you notice that, if there is a dusty surface, there must also be a non-dusty surface. When
you notice this, you begin to clean the dusty surface. Dust gives place to light. Thinking gives
place to little gaps of no-thinking. The more you see the light that shines through these gaps,
the more you notice that the surface of reality, in fact, is a mirror. This light doesn't come
from nowhere but yourself.
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:38 am Post subject:
Mr Clean is here!!!
I'm here to clean up the dust and clear the air!!!

Passerby: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: The gap
marcelo wrote:
When you're thinking a lot and not aware of the thinking, the reality you see is like
a dense wall.
When you notice thoughts, the wall of reality becomes a dusty surface.
Noticing thoughts leads you to the be aware of the duality of thinking. If there is a
state of thinking, there must also be a state of no-thinking.
Then you notice that, if there is a dusty surface, there must also be a non-dusty
surface. When you notice this, you begin to clean the dusty surface. Dust gives
place to light. Thinking gives place to little gaps of no-thinking. The more you see
the light that shines through these gaps, the more you notice that the surface of
reality, in fact, is a mirror. This light doesn't come from nowhere but yourself.
Maybe all along it wasn't dusty at all... it becomes dusty when identification is made on a
particular speck of dust looking at others...
Passerby: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: The gap
Quote:
I'm here to clean up the dust and clear the air!!!
The more dusty it becomes.
Forum Topic: The Spell of Karmic Propensities

Initially I thought Thusness told me to post our whole chat log on this in the forum which I
did, then it turns out that what he meant was he wanted me to SUMMARISE it to see my
understanding based on the chat log
So my summary goes...
Karmic Propensities is what blinded us from seeing the ultimate reality. Our entire mind is
affected by karmic propensities such that our entire system of enquiry, even when we want to
inquire on reality, we cannot know beyond "Who", "When", "What", "Where". Our mind is
always thinking dualistically, in terms of subject and object (an I and a Not-I, which cannot
be found in reality). It is a momentum that cannot be located, yet it can be directly felt and
experienced, and the momentum arises every moment and affect the entire way we see things.
When we are affected by momentum the mind cannot know the ultimate reality (Emptiness).
Because our momentum is at work, we will always assume a subject-object duality. That is,
there is a Self, an Agent, and observer, doer, thinker of think. A self that persists in time in a
connected way... experiencing things... It blinds us into seeing self and objective world as
'entities', as 'things' with inherent existence, as a separate and permanent 'me'.
So when momentum is in action, we cannot help but react with our karmic patterns. If we
were to ask, "If you lost your shoe, are you still you?" or "If u lost ur hands, do u still exist?".
It almost seems certain to say "Yes, of course I am still I." because we always assumed there
is a truly existing "Self" experiencing changes. This momentum can continue even after
experiences of transcendental Presence, and distorting the experience. Dharma Dan calls this
the "fundamental knot of perception".
Because it is our habit energy that made us think that way, we are so used to thinking in terms
of subject object duality that it has become so deeply part of us, deeply imprinted into our
consciousness.
If we were to eliminate this bond, then we can begin to realise, there is no "Self". In reality,
there is only Self1, Self2, Self3, moment to moment our mental and karmic factors arise
spontaneously but not in a connected way. We are not a permanent self, we are momentary
self and nothing stays, everything is ever flowing.
Without seeing things of 'entities', we can begin to realise the nature of Denpendent Co-
Arising, Conditionality, Interdependence, etc, i.e Emptiness. The nature is always so, but our
karmic propensities obscure us from seeing the truth, distorting the way we see things,
enquire things, and perceive things. It is this bond that bonds us life after life in Samsara.
Forgot to mention... to eliminate the bond we have to feel it, feel the power of the bond,
experience it. To eliminate the bond is a matter of insights, the insight into our true nature,
the insight into self-liberation, etc.
Moved over from Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra sharing by Thusness
Several hours ago, Thusness messaged me "This bond is so amazing, that all along we are
only dealing with the seeds that blind us from seeing. And that is the 3rd door." (the door of
suffering, see the three dharma seals and the three doors)
I was then reminded that Dharma Dan, one who according to himself has attained Arhatship.
I was reminded by what he wrote... that during the days he was an Anagami he got sick of the
cycles of insight that were leading nowhere, and then finally his entry into Arhatship was
merely a strange untangling of the knot of perception.
This strange untangling of the knot of perception, which was mentioned several times in his
new and revised model of the progression of non-dual insights/or enlightenment (in contrast
to the model of enlightenment which he wrote while he was an Anagami), really sounded
much like what Thusness was talking about. So I showed him the URL... and turns out that it
is exactly what Thusness meant... he agreed with the entire article including that the Wisdom
Eye is the crucial key to liberation, Arhatship. He thinks that the revised model is more
accurate (than the old model), and is glad that there is so much importance was given to this
'knot of perception'... which wasn't really written in his e-book (which may be due to the fact
that he wrote most of his e-book during his days as an Anagami). Thusness thinks that
Dharma Dan should relate the 3rd door to suffering and include this and together with the
non-dual experience, refine the e-book.
I will also be posting another topic on the spell of karmic propensities... containing a chat log
I had with Thusness a few days ago.
Anyway here is the article, I'll be pasting a portion:
http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The
%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.html
quote:
A Revised Four Path Model
Here is my revised version of the Four Path Model, and this is the primary model I use when
describing awakening, talking about my practice, and helping others practice. I think that
using the original terminology and revising its definitions allows a lot of good material in the
Pali Canon to be used, thus provides a link to previously done work. However, I realize that
using terminology that already has such deep cultural and dogmatic resonance may be a
problem. For those who want something new, I will shortly present a rephrasing of this model
that I call the Simple Model.
In the Revised Four Path Model, Stream Enterers have discovered the complete discontinuity
that is called Fruition and sometimes called Nirvana or Nibbana (Sanskrit vs. Pali). This is
the first of two meanings of Nirvana, with the other being Fourth Path. Stream enterers cycle
through the anas, know that awakening or some different understanding from the norm is
possible, and yet they do not have all that different an experience of most sensations from
those who are not yet stream enterers. They may correctly extrapolate a lot of good dharma
insights from momentary experiences, particularly high up in High Equanimity and the three
moments before a Fruition, but this is not the same as living there all the time. In fact, most
stream enterers have a very hard time describing how things have changed in terms of their
daily life.
Those of Second Path have now completed a new insight cycle. They understand the process
by which enlightened beings make further progress and equate progress with further cycles of
insight, which is partially true. More model-obsessed or intellectual practitioners at second
path may get very into fractal models, consciousness models, enlightenment models, various
integrative theories, and that sort of thing at this stage of practice. Psychological issues tend
to be a bit more of a big deal during this phase, and psychological development become
interesting to them in some way. By this point most people, though certainly not everyone,
also have a pretty good understanding of the basics of the samatha jhanas, and these can be
very fascinating. What they may be most bothered by is that cycle after cycle of practice,
duality remains the predominant experience most of the time.
Those of Third Path have shifted their understanding of what progress is from those of
Second Path, and have been to see that it is about seeing the emptiness, selflessness,
impermanence, etc. of sensations in daily life and begin to see that they have the ability to do
this. This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it
becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it
doesnt have to be.
At the beginning of Third Path, most practitioners think: Ill just complete more cycles of
insight, like I did before, and this will do the trick. They dont tend to understand what it is
they have attained all that well yet, nor its deeper implications. By the mature stage of Third
Path, which can take months to years to show up, the practitioner is more and more able to
see the emptiness, selfless, centerlessness, luminosity, etc. of phenomena in real-time, so
much so that it can be very difficult to notice what artificial dualities remain.
As they cycle, they will enter new territory, possibly causing some uncertainty or instability,
and with each Review phase they tend to really feel that they have done it until they begin to
notice the limits of their practice. There can be this nagging something in the background that
things arent done, and yet figuring out exactly what the problem is can be very slippery. It is
a bit like being in the stages before stream entry, trying to figure out what exactly needs to be
done. They need to notice something that has nothing to do with the cycles, to finally
untangle the knot of perception at its core, but doing this can be a real trick. It is a very
strange place, as one seems to know the dharma all the way to the end and yet somehow it
just isnt quite enough. In that vein, it is interesting to note that I wrote the vast majority of
this book while I was some sort of anagami, and on reflection I got just about everything
right. My emphases are slightly different now, but the basics are all the same.
As things progress, anagamis begin to tire of the cycles to a small or large degree and begin
to look to something outside of them or not related to them for the answer to the final
question. Finally, the cycles of insight, the states of concentration, the powers, and all the
other perks and prerogatives of their stage of awakening or concentration abilities (if they
developed them) hold no appeal and only lead to more unsatisfying cycles.
I completed around 27 full, complete insight cycles with mind-blowing A&P Events, Ass-
kicking Dark Nights, Equanimity phases, and what seemed to be brand new, fresh Fruitions
and Review phases between third and fourth path. There is nothing special about that number,
as I mentioned previously in my descriptions of the problem that I call Twelfth Path. The
later cycles got faster and faster, so that by the end it seemed I was whipping one out every
few weeks or even every few days, but they still seemed to be leading nowhere. It was only
when I had gotten so sick of the cycles and realized that they were leading nowhere that I was
able to see what has nothing to do with the cycles, which also wasnt anything except a
strange untangling of the knot of perception of them. The cycles, for better or worse, have
continued just the same. Thus, there is not much point in counting cycles or paths, as they
dont necessarily correlate well with anything past the first two or three, and issues of
backsliding can really make things complex, as I explained earlier.
Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally untangled the knot of
perception, dissolved the sense of the center point actually being the center point, no longer
fundamentally make a separate Self out of the patterns of sensations that they used to, even
though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different understanding from
those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes this path about something that is beyond
the paths. This is also poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye. What is interesting is
that I could write about this stage quite well when I was an anagami, but that is a whole
different world from knowing it like arahats know it.
The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through cycles of flashing open just
after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of
physical sensations, then mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly
fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and become integrated into this
new, correct and direct perception of reality as it is. Review cycles may occur many times
during each flash, but when the eye is open they seem rather irrelevant in comparison to
keeping the level of clarity and acceptance high enough to keep the eye open. When the eye
fades, the familiar insight cycles may seem like pure drudgery, with the focus being of
practice initially lost in getting through the cycles and then gradually shifting again to getting
clear enough to get the eye to open again. The themes that occupy center stage go through a
cycle that is very much like a progress cycle.
Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open
from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is
open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness
of perspective. Done is what is to be done, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have
opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is
rarely mentioned but worth knowing.
For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate
front from insight practices, as done is what is to be done. That said, insight practices can
still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just
like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change,
work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else.
Supreme Master Ching Hai Cult,

Forum Topic:
Orthodox?
Still remember crescent posted a website on Master Ching Hai last year? Check A website...
Gaining enlightenment... Opinions needed...
Supreme Master Ching Hai's cult has become one of the fastest growing cults in the world
with millions of followers.
This article will not only talk about her cult personality, but also the question of... is she
Enlightened, or a living Buddha she claimed to be? (that will be the second post)
But first a brief intro about her and how I got to know more about her.
My brief impression running through the website is that that Master is definitely a
charismatic cult leader. And then my friend told me, yeah, I like the thing about Master
Ching Hai that is in one glance you'll be able to see she's a cult master
She is very fond of appearing in fanciful styles:
And her appearance changes all the time too, like Michael Jackson
1993:
1994:
1996:
1999:
2000:
2001:
2006:
So it was pretty easy to tell the kind of cult-like personality she has.
The reason for her changing appearance? "Through her lectures, Ching Hai explains that her
way of dress is a statement to prove that one does not need to dress as a nun or monk to
achieve enlightenment through her Quan Yin Method."
Next, I briefly read through some articles and realised a few things... Quan Yin method
emphasizes a lot on Vegetarianism, 5 precepts, and practising a meditation method called
'Quan Yin Method' that requires a divine transmission from Supreme Master Ching Hai
herself. I did not look more into that at that time.
This article shows her cult personality in detail:

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/03.28.96/suma-9613.html
quote:
"No, no, it's not a religion," said one young Vietnamese girl. "It's more like, just finding out
about you, who you are." Every follower answered the same question with almost the same
words: "No, it's about finding yourself." Their religion, they proudly say, is Buddhist,
Christian, Catholic or Hindu--it just so happens that they also worship the Supreme Master
Suma Ching Hai.
In fact, they worship her so much that anything she touches becomes a prized possession.
Ching Hai's new book features a picture of the Master about to engage in one of her favorite
activities: scattering handfuls of candy to her disciples. The caption reads, "Master offers her
love and blessing by sharing candies with the gathered initiates." Indeed, after a recent Ching
Hai lecture, one follower offered me a handful of Jolly Ranchers and Fun-Size Hershey bars,
saying, "Here is Master candy! We love the candy Master gives us. You know, it's different
from other candy. We love going around to get it, it's like being little kids."
Family relationships are affected (i.e the Master wants her student to meditate 5 hours a day),
financial difficulties, are among those reported coming from this organisation.
quote:
Krysiak returned home to find he had locked himself out of his house. "I called a locksmith, a
Vietnamese guy, and I told him all about it. He laughed. He said, 'In Vietnamese community,
there are two causes for divorce: Bay 101, and Ching Hai.' "
Master Ching Hai's lineage is from Sikkhism, though she claims to represent all religions,
especially Buddhism too (for example Kuan Yin is a Buddhist Bodhisattva) due to her
Buddhist involvement in the past.
quote:
Reality Check
Ching Hai's knack for self-promotion shines in her official biography, which reads more like
a hagiography. In it, Ching Hai appears as a "rare and noble child" who taught herself
philosophy at an early age and cried at the sight of slaughtered animals. The prophecies of
clairvoyants back up Ching Hai's claims to gurudom: "She has come to this world, on the
mission of Quan Yin, to save sentient beings from misery." After Ching Hai learned the Quan
Yin meditation method from a mysterious Master in the Himalayas, according to the
biography, she relocated to Taiwan, where a group of students guided by their prayers found
her and coaxed the reluctant woman into becoming their Master. The rest of the biography is
a paean to the Master's humility, humanitarian efforts and impressive output of saleable
products.
Entertaining though this mishmash of religious mythology, Eastern folklore and public-
relations razzle-dazzle may be, it's rather less interesting than the story of Ching Hai revealed
in the thesis of UC-Berkeley graduate Eric Lai.
According to Lai's research, the Supreme Master was born Hue Dang Trinh on May 12, 1950,
in a small village in Vietnam, in the same province which later saw the My Lai massacre. The
daughter of a Vietnamese mother and an ethnic Chinese father, Trinh reportedly hung out
with American soldiers as a teenager, and bore one a daughter. At 19, during the height of the
Vietnam War, Trinh left home with a German doctor working for an international relief
organization. Trinh's daughter later killed herself at 20. Trinh married the doctor, and the
couple moved first to Britain and then to Germany.
There, in 1979, she met a Buddhist monk whom she followed for three years until she was
denied entrance to his monastery on the basis of gender. Trinh then moved to India to study
Buddhism. It was here that she became a prize pupil of Thakar Singh, who had just splintered
off from a Buddhist order, Radhasoami, to form his own sect, Kirpal Light Satsang.
"Thakar Singh turned out to be the most scandalous guru in the history of Radhasoami,"
writes David Christopher Lane, who while a graduate student at UC- Berkeley met Singh in
India in 1978 and has since traced the guru's checkered career. According to Lane's findings:
"By the mid-1980s reports circulated throughout the world about how Thakar had embezzled
money, indulged in sexual affairs with numerous women, and had engaged in violent
interactions with disciples." Some of the accusations included tying women up and beating
them regularly. But by the time Singh's crimes came to light, Ching Hai had already learned
from him the "light and sound" meditation technique, and had left for Taiwan.
Lai's research revealed that in Taiwan, in 1983, Trinh studied with a Buddhist nun named
Xing-jing. Unaware of her association with Singh, Xing-jing officially ordained Trinh in the
order and gave her the religious name "Ching Hai," which translates from Mandarin as "pure
ocean."
The next year, Ching Hai moved to a Buddhist temple in Queens, New York. She taught
meditation, and meditated herself for up to four hours a day. One former colleague told Lai,
"We were all impressed by her devotion and sincerity." But a year and a half later, Ching Hai
began teaching the "light and sound" technique to her students, though few responded
favorably. Returning to Taiwan in 1986, Ching Hai lured followers away from her former
master, Xing-jing, and set up a makeshift temple in an apartment in the Taipei suburbs.
Rumors about her prophetic abilities and unique meditation methods earned her a large
following, and by 1987 posters of Ching Hai appeared all over Taipei. By the time the
Taiwanese Buddhist community learned of Ching Hai's past connection to the disgraced
Satsang cult, it was too late. The new Messiah had been born.
More info to come...

I became interested in Master Ching Hai again, about a month ago, when another forum
which I am in charge (the Friendster community, 'Buddhist frens', 'World Buddhist Network')
had a friendster forummer who asked about Master Ching Hai. He/she said that someone
from the Master Ching Hai organisation offered him to guide him in meditation. He was not
sure whether to accept it.
Then, I decided to enter the website to read more about her teachings and practise. And then
as I look into her teaching... I just can't help but realising that Supreme Master Ching Hai
probably had certain transcendental experiences.
From her http://www.godsdirectcontact.org/eng/faq.txt
quote:
Q: Master, Why is it seeing light and hearing sounds so important in

meditation?
M: Because that is our own real self. Light and sound is the
manifestation of our wisdom inside, which is invisible to our eyes and
ears. Hearing the sound doesn't mean you hear with the ears. Seeing the
light doesn't mean you see with eyes. It's just the inside awareness of
your own self, of your own glorious nature, that we are light; that we
are a beautiful melody and that we are not the body. And the more you
hear of this invisible, inaudible sound, the more you'll see this
invisible light or heaven, the wiser you'll become; the more loving
you'll become; the more satisfaction you'll gain; and the more
efficient you will be to serve the world.
It's not because the light and sound are important; it is because it is
ourselves. It's just like food, we don't eat because of the taste only;
it's because it will give nourishment that will later manifest as
strength and energy, so that we can work for the family; we can think;
we can read books; and we can do other things. That is the importance
of food. Similarly, the importance of the light and sound is that it
makes us wiser, more loving, more capable in all aspects. Alright?
Supreme Master Ching Hai answered on March 9, 1993 in Singapore
quote:
Quan Yin Method -- the meditation on Inner Light and Inner Sound.
The inner Light, the Light of God, is the same Light referred to in the word
"enlightenment".
The inner Sound, is the Word referred in Bible:" In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was God. ..."
It is through the inner Light and Sound that we come to know God...
quote:
For example, the Christian Bible states, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1) This Word is the inner Sound. It has also been
called the Logos, Shabd, Tao, Soundstream, Naam, or the Celestial Music. Master Ching Hai
says, It vibrates within all life and sustains the whole universe. This inner melody can heal all
wounds, fulfill all desires, and quench all worldly thirst. It is all powerful and all Love. It is
because we are made of this Sound, that contact with it brings peace and contentment to our
hearts. After listening to this Sound, our whole being changes, our entire outlook on life is
greatly altered for the better.
The inner Light, the Light of God, is the same Light referred to in the word
"enlightenment". Its intensity can range from a subtle glow to the brilliance of many
millions of suns. It is through the inner Light and Sound that we come to know God.
quote:
For example like, for an ordinary person to get enlightenment, you normally will see Light
and hear Sound - Light of different colors or brilliance, sometimes more than a thousand
suns. Some people will see less than that. Some people just see kind of moving black clouds
for some time, but very rare. Most people see immediate Light from God.
Light represents wisdom, the super consciousness; the Light without shadows, the Light that
you don't see with your eyes but you see with your inner awareness. That is called
enlightenment when you see that. Then you hear the Sound, the silent Sound from God,
which brings you the message from heaven. It's kind of like music, but without instruments.
You can't make out what it is; but it is so beautiful and melodious, it lifts you up above the
mundane level of consciousness and brings you back to where you are supposed to be.
-- ching hai, http://www.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/eng/ls/php/show3.php?id=138&code=b5
And many more... I shared them with Thusness, who replied that there is without doubts that
Master Ching Hai had transcendental experiences of the divine Presence, or the I AMness.
His first comment was "The description is true but the explanation is not quite right. It is
distorting a transcendental experience similar to that of "I AM". It is having an experience of
non-dual but not knowing what is non-dual. It is also not knowing what is emptiness nature."
Regarding her cult personality and association with Buddhism, Thusness said, "But as long as
she does not bring in buddhism, it is okie. But if she does, then she is distorting the essense of
buddhism." and that she might be accepted under certain Hindu teachings, but not in
Buddhism.
He also commented, "i wonder why these people must bring in Buddha's name and say this is
the essence of his teaching. just remain what they experience. there is no need to ascribe this
to the teaching of buddha."
According to Thusness, Supreme Master Ching Hai entered through the door of Eye and
Hearing consciousness and only a person that has experienced it will know what she is
talking about.. HOWEVER, that is not realisation of the nature of non-duality.
More info later...

So my reply to the Friendster friend was...
quote:
Supreme Ching Hai is a charismatic cult leader. She has some meditative experiences, but I
can honestly tell you that it is NOT enlightenment. When I read the articles, I already know
what her experience is about.. and I confirmed it with one of my experienced friends.
Her experience is the 'I AM' which is a form of luminosity.You hear a lot about that in other
religions including Hinduism and other mystical traditions. It is like experiencing the Atman,
the Brahman, the Self, which is also known as God. It is having experienced certain luminous
aspect of the Mind (citta), which is transcendental, but without understanding of 3 dharma
seals or Emptiness/dependent origination, he will impose subtle wrong views and become an
eternalist, holding onto the concept of a transcendental Self. Many people who experienced
this thought they attained enlightenment or liberation, but they haven't.
In short, in Hinduism, she might be considered enlightened already, but not in Buddhism. I've
heard Master Ching Hai is from Sikhism lineage, and it would have been better that she
stayed it that way rather than becoming a charismatic who tries to incorporate Buddhist
teachings and then distort Buddhism's essence.
My suggestion is to find someone in Buddhism of PURE lineage (means from unadulterated

authentic Buddhist lineages), someone who is very enlightened and you're sure his Dharma
views are in accordance to the 3 dharma seals.
Just now went youtube and searched 'ching hai', found this talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6o4EmEpQUc&mode=related&search=
The talk was quite interesting.. You might want to check it out to get a feeling of how she
teaches... But doesn't mean I agree with all of it though there are certain degrees of truths in
it. The topic is more on self-realisation (though only the luminous aspect of our Buddha
Nature).
Very 'new agey' flavour..

She is definitely at 'I AM' stage. She has not yet understood 'no subject-object split'. That is
why she say there are 2 parts... body and spirit.
For one who realises non-duality (no subject-object split) there is no division of body and
spirit. At non-duality realisation, body is not seen as entity but as perceptions and sensations
that are 'not separated from environment'. In fact perception and sensation is the
'environment'.
Just my opinion... Hope that i am writing it correctly.

quote:

She is definitely at 'I AM' stage. She has not yet understood 'no subject-object split'.
That is why she say there are 2 parts... body and spirit.
For one who realises non-duality (no subject-object split) there is no division of body
and spirit. At non-duality realisation, body is not seen as entity but as perceptions and
sensations that are 'not separated from environment'. In fact perception and sensation
is the 'environment'.
Just my opinion... Hope that i am writing it correctly.
Well said
Forum Topic: Can anyone add to this?

JonLS: 29 June 2007 02:27 PM
Someone asked the question below and I've answered it the best way I can and yet I haven't
really answered the question at all because I simply don't know the answer and strongly
suspect the question is itself questionable.
Anyhow, any feedback would be appreciated.
quote:
[quote]Just a question: if you are all about accepting and experiencing the world as it is, why
do you keep trying to change the rest of us and make us just like you? If YOU are all about
just being in the present moment, then aren't those of US who AREN'T in the present
moment, still part of YOUR present moment?
It occurrs to me that you say you're about accepting what is, but that seems to be counter to
the fact that you are often exhorting the rest of us to change.
I'm just sayin'.
I really love this question.
It brings up many paradoxes.
First of all you're assuming I'm talking to other people and not just to myself. What I mean by
that is that you are me, you just don't know it yet.
As for accepting the world as it is and why am I trying to change anyone, that part of the
question is really provocative. I really don't know how to answer that. I'm completely at a
loss. I don't know. Of course there is the assumption that I am indeed trying to change
someone, and it appears to be true. But I've learned that appearances can be deceiving.
Remember, I'm advocating letting go of everything I know. So that really leaves me in the
middle of nowhere, in a huge vastness or void, with no scaffolding to hang on to and I must
say, I love it, it's really freeing and peaceful. But it also leaves me with no answers, nothing is
known, except perhaps the fact that I am, that seems to be the only thing that is definite.
You also mentioned that some of you are not in the present moment and you're suggesting
that I am and to me that doesn't make sense at all. We all are in the present moment simply
because there's nowhere else to be, is there? The present moment is all that really exists. The
future is just a thought in your mind and the past is just a memory.
So when I say you're not in the present moment I'm really only talking about your thoughts
and something called "presence". You actually can get lost in your thoughts about the past
and the future. This can happen when you identify with your thoughts and take them
seriously. But we're only talking about thinking here. Physically we are all ever only in the
present moment. But I have to confess here, that I really don't know what I'm talking about
when I talk about "physically" because to me that is just more interpretation by the mind, I've
learned not to take my mind very seriously anymore.
But we can definitely get the sense that past and future are real when we identify with
thoughts about past and future, but when you see thoughts for what they are, simply thoughts,
then they lose their hypnotic effect on you and you can remain in the present moment, this is
called "presence". And this is what leads to the peace that surpasses all understanding.
Simply because there is no way to understand this, you can only BE this. You can only be
"presence" because that is your true nature.
Just a sharing.. IMO..
The question is absolutely valid...
We can never change anybody. This is also part of the realisation of isness. We can share our
experiences... but any expectation is really the 'sense of self' already.
But, we all like others to experience what we are expereincing. We are humans and we like
others to share our good discoveries.
For myself, I seldom talk about my 'discoveries' except on forums like this one and when
somebody express interest. I don't even talk about this much to my wife. I tried but she does
not understand. So I just let it be.
Also from the non-dual perspective, the distinction between self and others really becomes
blurred... due to the removal of subject-object split. We become quite aware of when there is
an outward externalisation to 'address' a 'somebody outside'. For me, this outward
externalisation although is required for interaction with others, nevertheless is also a cause of
'suffering' as we constantly tries to modify the outcomes.
Just a sharing...
quote:

Someone asked the question below and I've answered it the best way I can and yet I
haven't really answered the question at all because I simply don't know the answer and
strongly suspect the question is itself questionable.
Anyhow, any feedback would be appreciated.
Just for sharing on "I am You" :
Me & You
Time & Space
In & Out
Body & Mind
Physical & Mental
Buddha Nature & Karma
Silence & Movement
In the world of presence, there is no such division; although there is no division, apple is still
not orange and I am not You. The conditions for arising differ.
There is the temptation to express this way in conventional terms but really it is the result of
attempting to reconcile non-dual experience into a dualistic framework and extrapolate a little
due to momentum.
When we are engaged in the process of explaining I am You, confusion arises not only
because dualistic thinking is not an appropriate tool to express non-dual experience, but we
identify with the dualistic mechanism. The habitual tendency of the mind to identify is so
amazing and our entire experience is shaped during the process even for a person that has
experienced non-duality.
In Buddhism, there is no-self apart from phenomenon happening and there never was a you
and me from start. Therefore non-dual experience is not being extrapolated to I am You,
instead, a skillful-mean to correctly explain without being trapped in a dualistic framework
was devised. This skillful mean must eliminate I from start and see what is from beginning.
Emptiness and Dependent Origination are devised for this purpose.
There is phenomenon happening, there is no self and to intuitively experience the ceaseless
arising and ceasing nature of awareness is more precious than anything in Buddhism; this is
the arising of prajna wisdom.
My 2 cents.
quote:

Just a sharing.. IMO..
The question is absolutely valid...
We can never change anybody. This is also part of the realisation of isness. We can
share our experiences... but any expectation is really the 'sense of self' already.
But, we all like others to experience what we are expereincing. We are humans and we
like others to share our good discoveries.
For myself, I seldom talk about my 'discoveries' except on forums like this one and
when somebody express interest. I don't even talk about this much to my wife. I tried
but she does not understand. So I just let it be.
Also from the non-dual perspective, the distinction between self and others really
becomes blurred... due to the removal of subject-object split. We become quite aware of
when there is an outward externalisation to 'address' a 'somebody outside'. For me, this
outward externalisation although is required for interaction with others, nevertheless is
also a cause of 'suffering' as we constantly tries to modify the outcomes.
Just a sharing...
There is a part on 'perception and sensation' are the environment. Think you edited it. Non-
dual experiencer will like it even though it does not make much meaningful sense.
An Eternal Now: 02 July 2007 10:20 PM
quote:

Dear friends,
I have lots of negative karma... and unpleasant tendencies. I will not post anymore stuffs
here unless more karmic negativities are resolved. I don't want to create a false
impression. Sadly, there is a long long way to go for me...
I thank all the helps and friendships from this forum.
May all be well.
Hmm.. is everything ok for you? What's happening?
Anyway you're most welcomed to come and post in our forum soon
All the best and hope you can resolve all your problems soon.
quote:

Sadly, there is a long long way to go for me...
Thusness used to say:
...For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in
consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the 'bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in
consciousness. Many mistaken that if
there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true
in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions...
quote:

Dear friends,
I have lots of negative karma... and unpleasant tendencies. I will not post anymore stuffs
here unless more karmic negativities are resolved. I don't want to create a false
impression. Sadly, there is a long long way to go for me...
I thank all the helps and friendships from this forum.
May all be well.

Hi Longchen,
Even if it is a grave mistake, do learn how to forgive urself also.
Do take care.
Hi AEN and Thusness,
Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, I have made a grave and terible mistake just recently. And this is due to strong karmic
reactive response that are held in place by subsconcious beliefs. I felt so terible and guilty
that i am totally out of 'obvious' non-duality for the past few days.
It is so true that not only is there no 'I' there is also no 'mine'. Thank you for the wisdom.
And there must also be 'no expectation'. Because expectation is self and is karmically
conditioned. As long as karmic forces are still in place, there can be no liberation even when
there are some non-dual experiences. I will not post again, until there are evidences of the
reduction and elimination of the strong karmic conditions that are held in place by
subconscious patterns and beliefs. The problem is that the karmic arising happens to fast
before clarity can 'shine the light' on the belief that cause its reactive response.
Once again, thanks.

JonLS: 07 July 2007 01:26 PM
quote:

Hi AEN and Thusness,
Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, I have made a grave and terible mistake just recently. And this is due to strong
karmic reactive response that are held in place by subsconcious beliefs. I felt so terible
and guilty that i am totally out of 'obvious' non-duality for the past few days.
It is so true that not only is there no 'I' there is also no 'mine'. Thank you for the
wisdom.
And there must also be 'no expectation'. Because expectation is self and is karmically
conditioned. As long as karmic forces are still in place, there can be no liberation even
when there are some non-dual experiences. I will not post again, until there are
evidences of the reduction and elimination of the strong karmic conditions that are held
in place by subconscious patterns and beliefs. The problem is that the karmic arising
happens to fast before clarity can 'shine the light' on the belief that cause its reactive
response.
Once again, thanks.
Hi Longchen,
No matter what the error you think you made, no matter what your experiences in the
moment... nothing, absolutely nothing... changes the simple isness of the present moment.
I hope this helps.

quote:
Hi Longchen,
No matter what the error you think you made, no matter what your experiences in the
moment... nothing, absolutely nothing... changes the simple isness of the present
moment.
I hope this helps.
Dear Jon,
Thanks so much
quote:
Dear Jon,
Thanks so much
Hi longchen, how are you? Feeling better now?

quote:
Hi longchen, how are you? Feeling better now?
I am Ok... Thanks
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is close to
me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt now... but i didn't
know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, don't think that karma does not exist.
The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt.
quote:
I am Ok... Thanks
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is
close to me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt
now... but i didn't know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, don't think that karma does not
exist. The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt.
Oh I see... yeah karma is very real.

JonLS: 08 July 2007 02:32 AM
quote:
I am Ok... Thanks
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is
close to me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt
now... but i didn't know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, [b]don't think that karma does not
exist. The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt.[/b]
Perhaps you should have stopped at "don't think".

All our so called problems begin when we start believing our thoughts.
Even the thought that there is a karmic debt to repay.
Can you not see Longchen, that this is simply your own interpretation of what is arising?
JonLS: 08 July 2007 02:59 AM
A quote from Thusness:
quote:
Why all the fuss? Is No-Self and Emptiness that important? What that is most problematic is
how consciousness works and what happened when we identify and get attached. The
immense power of identification, I cannot help but to emphasize and re-emphasized. A mere
identification has such amazing power. Fusing into all aspect of our experiences, mental,
spiritual and physicalThe weight, the burden and the suffering, like holding on to a
charcoal and unwilling to drop. How true is that? Again it is not in words, we have to
experience the magical effect of identification and attachment ourselves.

quote:
Perhaps you should have stopped at "don't think".
All our so called problems begin when we start believing our thoughts.
Even the thought that there is a karmic debt to repay.
Can you not see Longchen, that this is simply your own interpretation of what is
arising?
Dear Jon,
Thanks for the advice
I perfectly understood what you are saying.
No, I am not thinking much about the karmic debt... although it remains an underlying
dynamics. In fact, by understanding the karmic forces at work allows me to fight it less. I will
have to see whether there are reduction of karmic reactivity after that... it is too early to tell
now.
The problem arises after the outward externalisation resulting in impression of subject-object
split. From that point onwards, the momentum for further suffering has picked up for
eventual action.
That unpleasant incident has strengthen non-duality by pernatrating it into areas where it was
initially of subject-object split. The challenge is to integrate non-duality into all aspects of
one's life, including conversation and communication with others.
You can say that there are time when passing through a stage of suffering and karmic reaction
allows 'me' to see that those areas are not in 'obvious' non-duality.
kind regards
quote:
That unpleasant incident has strengthen non-duality by pernatrating it into areas where
it was initially of subject-object split. The challenge is to integrate non-duality into all
aspects of one's life, including conversation and communication with others.
You can say that there are time when passing through a stage of suffering and karmic
reaction allows 'me' to see that those areas are not in 'obvious' non-duality.
Glad to hear that u r ok.

quote:
Glad to hear that u r ok.
Thanks Thusness
Re: Question about reincarnation (Source:

Forum Topic:
Kyo: Thread Started on Jul 6, 2007, 3:37pm
From :
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1183743591/0#3
Quote:
I`m really confused about this reincarnation thing...If I had have about 10
lifetimes on this earth and when I die does that mean that those persons I
have been once does not exist anymore??? And when I reincarnate again
into someone else does that mean that this person who I am now does not
exist anymore??? What about my loved ones?? When they decide to
reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person
does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever???? I have to say that
it`s really depressing if it goes like that way....
It's quite the contrary. In truth, the depression (which is always caused by a misunderstanding
of the Universal Laws or some aspect of the truth of the matter) is turned around (Byron
Katie says, only you can enlighten yourself, via the true meaning of your thoughts, feelings
and ideas... turn each of them around, and ask yourself what does each teach you?) to Joy.
If you've had 10 lifetimes, or 10 million lifetimes on this Earth, on other planets, even in
other past universes before this one, when you die (which you don't, ever. it's only the
physical body and various energy bodies, which are transformed and transmuted, see even
they don't 'die', much less the true you, the soul, by its very definition the eternal 'I am'), the
(essence, totality, simultaneity of the) person that you once were, is every bit 100% the same
as the (essence, totality, simultaneity of the) person that you are now (ie. after death).
In fact, upon death, you are so much more. It's quite the contrary, the real difficulty of
'incompleteness' and 'memory loss' of ALL whom you are (ie. all lives and existences
combined, not merely those from the past, but also across individual manifestations of your
own soul beyond time) is when you're in a physical body in any specific lifetime. The joy of
reclaiming who (all) you are, occurs naturally after death (this is not by any purposeful
design, at least not directly; but a mere consequence of the mechanism of physical
incarnation vs extraphysical existence).
Imagine - all the memories, the joys, the dreams, the aspirations, the emotions, the
experiences, the interactions, the RELATIONSHIPS, the love, all of these from all your
many different lifetimes, as each and every man and woman you've been, as human and as
extraterrestrial, as intraphysical and as extraphysical, etc. *ALL* OF THESE (BEINGS, IN
THEIR ENTIRETY) ARE WITHIN YOU, INSEPARABLY AND FOREVER A PART OF
YOURSELF.
They can never die, because you (and whom really are you, once you've realized a higher
level of truth via evolution in exactly an analogous way to the waking up to greater clarity
after death of a lifetime, but ultimately, essentially, totally and simultaneously God
Her/Him/Them/OurSelves) are eternal. A simple truth.
AND SO IT IS EXACTLY (but of course) FOR EACH AND ALL YOUR LOVED ONES.
They are eternal, in infinitely more ways than they might realize. When you (truly!) love
someone, it is not only the physical shell or even this particular lifetime that you're loving,
but ALL of her/his/their past lives, personalities (for true love is *unconditional*), existences
and everything and everything that they are, have been, OR WILL BE. Always & Forever.
Quote:
When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit
realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone
forever????
Hahahaa!
I/We hope you see the silliness in that question for yourself, and may you be able to laugh at
it for *yourself* (for we are certainly not laughing at you, but at the silliness of the concept.
Still, misconceptions can cause pain, all of which is completely unnecessary. And that is what
makes it really tragic, yet simultaneously (to laugh or to cry? let's do both) laughable.)
Your loved ones are never gone forever, only that you (or for some of them, even themselves)
forget themselves, other aspects, lifetimes, levels or eternal existence of themselves. If you
can recognize the beauty, truth, totality of themselves, seeing within and through their eyes,
ALL they've ever been (all their past lives, all their past life relationships with
yourself/yourselves), and ALL they'll ever be in all infinity of the future, then you've seen
Love. You've (been willing to) see/seen their true Self / that which is yourSelf, for Love is the
Realization of Oneness, between *all* themselves and *all* their past/future existences, and
between *all* themselves and *all* yourself.
And time (including lifetimes) isn't some sort of cruel barrier to separate you from your loved
ones (*chuckle/LOL*), or even to separate you from your past/future lives (even more
laughable! *ROFL*), for what is Time, but really an Expression/Exploration of YourSelf
through your Universe(s), Your very Own Creation.
(WHAT WE CALL) "GOD", IS THE ESSENCE, TOTALITY AND SIMULTANEITY OF

YOUR SOUL, OF ALL-WHOM-YOU-LOVE, OF ALL-THE-COSMOS. THESE THREE
ARE ONE. WE UNDERSTAND THIS AS GOD/LOVE.
Interesting topic. I've added my reply too

Simpo: Reply #2 on Jul 7, 2007, 8:12pm
Thanks for the sharing guys.
I agree that 'I AM' is not the complete picture yet.
No offence, but most new age understanding is incomplete. Non-duality is the next major
understanding that will 'redefine' how one is understanding oneself and its relationship to the
universe. That does not meant that there is nothing or no soul or so on so forth. What is being
redefined is that you as a separate entity apart from the rest of the world and participating in it
is being readdressed.
Also what is soul/oversoul is understood better... and whether it is a permanent enitity
separated from the rest of the universe.
Where is the physical body, where are the subtle bodies? In what location of space are they
in? What is space? Space, form and all that is seem are structures formed from sensorial
datas. But where are the sensorial organs? The body is not a body per se, but is the experience
of the universe through a particular set of 'algorithm'.
For in truth, inner and outer are impression from sensorial datas. Senses are the experience of
the universe. When pain is felt, it is not a 'you' that feels the pain, but the universe
experiences it.
Kyo: Reply #3 on Jul 8, 2007, 12:38am
Jul 7, 2007, 8:12pm, simpo wrote:

No offence, but most new age understanding is incomplete. Non-duality is
the next major understanding that will 'redefine' how one is understanding
oneself and its relationship to the universe...
None at all, because what any one person imagines is "New Age" or "Buddhist" or any label,
is nothing more than the person's own ideas or beliefs within himself that he has thusly
labelled. There really is no such thing as "New Age" or "Buddhist" or any other viewpoint,
only the individual's own ideas (including his ideas or understand or conception of other
pple's ideas).
Whenever any one person wrestles with the idea of "duality" or "love" or any issue at all, it
isn't so much the person wrestling with the Universe over this, it is really the person wrestling
with himself, with the (eg. "duality" or "love" or whatever it is) within himself, that is what's
really happening.
This is one of the most powerful of Universal Laws - the Law of Reflection. This universal
law is also the major one worked with in Byron Katie's beautiful principles of self-
responsibility. Of looking inward and realizing that it is always something within self that is
the issue, not with the universe or with the state of humanity or their understanding, per se.
"It is always really something *about yourself*, whenever you want something, about
someone or any situation, and not actually about the other person or the situation. And
from understanding this, when you are then able to identify the deeper love, you then
have also manifested for yourself, the opportunity to grow, expand and evolve."
- Hilarion--(a friend's Hilarion Reading 2006)
"What Relationship, is really about, is recognizing that in the other person, is *you*.
When you look at others and their issues, that somehow there is in you, the person who
has struggled around these or other issues. Acknowledging this and understanding this,
is the greatest lesson in being with other people. You do this in Relationship, when you
see that somehow that which is represented, though seemingly outside of you, in the
other person, it *is* you. It is a part of your own being, that is what attracts you to that
person, that is what you're here to learn, understand, forgive, work with, improve and
evolve in yourself."
- Hilarion--(Spring Equinox 2006 Channeling)
Hi Kyo,
Thanks for the sharing... what you wrote is entirely true
But the meaning of the word 'non-duality' is mixed up here. By non-duality ( as it is being
presented by my post) is not referring to 'opposites' such as mirroring, good-bad, happy-sad
and so on so forth.
In this post, it is referring to the way that our existence is being percieved. The word is the
same, but the implication is entirely different.
But, i also believe that what you have described can lead one to the edge of luminosity. But it
does not necessarily make one realise that perception that is conventionally held is due to a
primary assumption of subject-object division.
kind regards
Dear friend, i do not meant to debunk anyone. If someone else have not pointed out this to
me. I would have been stuck too. Actually, I am pretty reluctant to write all this... but without
someone else point it out... it is extremely difficult for one to gain a good clarity in this subtle
realm of consciousness.
Dear Friends,
If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must not
argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling that is
being felt at that moment.
You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not
reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.
If this persist long enough, something 'magical' will be percieved...

Karmakanic: Reply #6 on Jul 15, 2007, 8:44am
Hi Simpo,
Is there any particular reason why you use the term 'non-duality' rather than 'oneness' or do
you see them as not quite the same thing?
Thanks
btw. good forum, plenty of interesting reading and links. ta

Jul 15, 2007, 8:44am, karmakanic wrote:

Hi Simpo,
Is there any particular reason why you use the term 'non-duality' rather
than 'oneness' or do you see them as not quite the same thing?
Thanks
btw. good forum, plenty of interesting reading and links. ta
Hi Karmakanic,
Welcome to the forum
Non-duality and oneness is the same. Basically, I use the term non-duality to make a
distinction from I AM Presence or eternal witnessing.
regards
Hi and thanks for getting back. The first part of your answer is good, it kept things nice and
simple, but then you had to add something more didnt you.
Actually Im glad because it leads to my next question regarding the two terms you used
which I am not familiar with, I AM Presence and eternal witnessing, also used a lot in
other posts.
I suspect they are terms for the same things I have come to know, and Im interested to
confirm in the context of my expression below.
The term I AM Presence I assume is also Oneness? A point of difference with Oneness is
that perception is no longer a part of the process. It has served its purpose and no longer
required. Purely a state of being.
And I suspect Eternal witnessing refers to that state approaching oneness, where perception
is still part of the process but is now aligned with truth and polarities are balanced.
Does this match? and how do you describe 'eternal witnessing'.
cheers
Hi Karmakanic,
The person in the Youtube link below is describing 'I AM' ( or eternal witnessing) stage of
understanding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6o4EmEpQUc&mode=related&search=
In non-duality, however, there is no subject-object split. Basically, at the non-dual stage, you
can say that the dropping of will is more thorough than that at the I AM stage.
For one who realises non-duality (no subject-object split) there is no division of body and
spirit. At non-duality realisation, body is not seen as entity but as perceptions and sensations
that are 'not separated from environment'. In fact perception and sensation is the
'environment'.
regards
Jul 16, 2007, 2:36am, karmakanic wrote:
Hi and thanks for getting back. The first part of your answer is good, it kept
things nice and simple, but then you had to add something more didnt you.
Actually Im glad because it leads to my next question regarding the two
terms you used which I am not familiar with, I AM Presence and eternal
witnessing, also used a lot in other posts.
I suspect they are terms for the same things I have come to know, and Im
interested to confirm in the context of my expression below.
The term I AM Presence I assume is also Oneness? A point of difference

with Oneness is that perception is no longer a part of the process. It has
served its purpose and no longer required. Purely a state of being.
And I suspect Eternal witnessing refers to that state approaching oneness,

where perception is still part of the process but is now aligned with truth
and polarities are balanced.
Does this match? and how do you describe 'eternal witnessing'.
cheers
Hi, the following links should answer your question:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html (My
friend, Thusness, speaks about his stages of realisations from 'I AM' all the way to Non-
Duality and Emptiness)
Some other very useful articles includes, http://www.dreamdatum.com/enlightenment-

state.html (Enlightenment is a gradual process: an article written by Simpo)
and.. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-
ken.html (Some writings on Non-Duality by Ken Wilber)
and many others on the same blog above.

Karmakanic: Reply #11 on Jul 17, 2007, 8:15pm
Thanks to both,
I see they are not what I first thought. Terminology again.
Still, I have a disdain for the word witness to be in the term. I think its misleading because
the word witness implies there is someone or something else there keeping track or score.
Logic just wouldnt allow me to use such term when speaking of such things. I cant help but
think the phrase was coined with a little of the judging god syndrome/illusion creeping in.
Particularly that the word eternal is put with witness.
Actually, one of the links given by xsurf touches on this:

Are they talking about the Self as a personality or Self as Eternal Witness? Must we do
away even with the Witness itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
Also, what further confused me, I sometimes see the term used as a verb, eternal
witnessing, indicating its something you do, yet mostly I see it used as a noun, the eternal
witness to name an entity, or condition.
You may have noticed Im not a big fan of terminology and labeling, although useful, it can
also be a source for misperception.
Anyway, thanks again, I now have a better idea of what some posts are referring to.
Hi Karmakanic,
Thanks for the sharing. I full agree that terminology can be quite confusing and unhelpful
when used to describe these stuffs.
regards
Jul 17, 2007, 8:15pm, karmakanic wrote:

Thanks to both,
I see they are not what I first thought. Terminology again.
Still, I have a disdain for the word witness to be in the term. I think its
misleading because the word witness implies there is someone or
something else there keeping track or score. Logic just wouldnt allow me
to use such term when speaking of such things. I cant help but think the
phrase was coined with a little of the judging god syndrome/illusion
creeping in. Particularly that the word eternal is put with witness.
Actually, one of the links given by xsurf touches on this:

Are they talking about the Self as a personality or Self as Eternal
Witness? Must we do away even with the Witness itself or the Witness is
another illusion itself?
Also, what further confused me, I sometimes see the term used as a verb,
eternal witnessing, indicating its something you do, yet mostly I see it
used as a noun, the eternal witness to name an entity, or condition.
You may have noticed Im not a big fan of terminology and labeling,
although useful, it can also be a source for misperception.
Anyway, thanks again, I now have a better idea of what some posts are
referring to.
Hi, the main reason why the term 'non-duality' is used over 'eternal witnessing' is because
when we say 'witnessing' or 'watching', there is still a subtle dualistic reference, even though
if you say it is an ongoing sense of witnessing and not a static entity.
This is because even when you said 'watching', usually theres this sense of standing back
from phenomena and watching it. 'Watching the movie' is different from 'BEING the movie'.
Yes, it is an ongoing watching yet there is still a 'watching' and then there is the objects that
are 'watched', then that is still dualistic.
Real Non-duality is this: No watcher needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable
Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga.. The knowingness is WITHIN the manifestation
The manifestation is self-luminous/"self-aware". There's not even a 'witnessing' or a

'watching'.
Forum Topic: Enlightenment

JonLS: 08 July 2007 02:43 AM
Enlightenment doesn't exist.
There is no such thing as enlightenment.
The term enlightenment is just a pointer used to describe the state in which you no longer
believe anything your mind is telling you, you no longer believe your thoughts.
Because you see clearly that your thoughts are not "it".
No thought will ever get you there.
So enlightenment which does not truly exist, also is not an event.
It could more correctly be called a non event.
Because it is just the dropping away of identification with thought.
And all that is left is "this".
The beautiful simplicity that is this present moment, that I am, that you are.
So, for me to post about enlightenment is rather paradoxical since there is no more belief in
the term enlightenment, there is the clarity that accompanies non identification with thought.
Here I am using thought trying to tell you that all thought is not it.
But if you're really interested in your true nature.
Don't pay attention to the words.
Pay attention to the spaceousness in which the words are arising.

JonLS: 08 July 2007 03:58 AM
Still don't get it?
Still looking for it?

Here's something that may help:
"You don't need time to be what you already are".

JonLS: 08 July 2007 05:05 AM
There is the interpretation by the mind, that I am posting on an internet forum and this forum
exists somewhere in cyberspace.
There is also the interpretation that I am posting to separate individuals "out there"
somewhere.
There is even the interpretation that these people need guidance with regard to enlightenment.
Isn't that whole heap of interpretation???
The mind truly is amazing.

quote:

There is the interpretation by the mind, that I am posting on an internet forum and this
forum exists somewhere in cyberspace.
There is also the interpretation that I am posting to separate individuals "out there"
somewhere.
There is even the interpretation that these people need guidance with regard to
enlightenment.
Isn't that whole heap of interpretation???
The mind truly is amazing.
The cracking sound of the door, engine starting, the movement of the air when it touches the
skinwhere is the spaceousness and what is I before interpretation.
Experience experience
From subtle fear to interpret due to prior intense confusion to joy in getting grounded in
Isness.
Isness spreads and is experienced as transients. One dirties his hand and dwell back into the
world of interpretations without identification.
whole heap of disjoint thoughts!

An Eternal Now: 08 July 2007 10:52 AM
quote:
Enlightenment doesn't exist.
There is no such thing as enlightenment.
The term enlightenment is just a pointer used to describe the state in which you no
longer believe anything your mind is telling you, you no longer believe your thoughts.
Because you see clearly that your thoughts are not "it".
No thought will ever get you there.
So enlightenment which does not truly exist, also is not an event.
It could more correctly be called a non event.
Because it is just the dropping away of identification with thought.
And all that is left is "this".
The beautiful simplicity that is this present moment, that I am, that you are.
So, for me to post about enlightenment is rather paradoxical since there is no more
belief in the term enlightenment, there is the clarity that accompanies non identification
with thought.
Here I am using thought trying to tell you that all thought is not it.
But if you're really interested in your true nature.
Don't pay attention to the words.
Pay attention to the spaceousness in which the words are arising.
Yes thought is not it...
But what do you think of this article : Y The Notion That U Can't Bcom What U Already R
is Bull@&^%
quote:
The cracking sound of the door, engine starting, the movement of the air when it
touches the skinwhere is the spaceousness and what is I before interpretation.
From subtle fear to interpret due to prior intense confusion to joy in getting grounded
in Isness.
Isness spreads and is experienced as transients. One dirties his hand and dwell back into
the world of interpretations without identification.
Gathas of Wo-lun and Hui-neng
"A monk once made reference to a gth composed by Wo-luan which reads as follows:"
(Essays in Zen Buddhism First Series 225)
"Hearing this, the sixth patriarch remarked: 'That is no enlightenment but leads one into a
state of bondage. Listen to my gth:" (Essays in Zen Buddhism First Series 225)
I, Wo-luan, know a device

Whereby to blot out all my thoughts:
The objective world no more stirs the mind,
And daily matures my Enlightenment!
~ Wo-lun
I, Hui-neng, know no device

My thoughts are not suppressed:
The objective world ever stirs the mind,
And what is the use of maturing Enlightenment?
~ Hui-neng
Gths of Wo-lun (臥輪 Garin) and Hui-neng (慧能 En)
From Hui-neng's T'an-ching (Essays in Zen Buddhism First Series 225)

quote:
kok ur head until it burst!

quote:
kok ur head until it burst!
sorry
Thought-construct is not it
JonLS: 08 July 2007 03:34 PM
quote:
But what do you think of this article : Y The Notion That U Can't Bcom What U
Already R is Bull@&^%
quote:
The notion that everyone already is someone who can perceive reality this way without effort
in real-time is a fantastic falsehood, lie, untruth, and in short, one great load of apathy-
creating bull@!@*. Said another say, your notion, namely that one cannot become one of the
people who can perceive this because everyone already is a clear perceiver of highest caliber,
is a profound delusion and simply does not hold up to reality testing.
This is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. I am not saying that everyone can and does
experience clarity right now. What I am saying is that since I see clearly now, I realize that
this clarity has always been there. And what is true for me is true for all others because there
really are no others and also because all others are like me and all others are me.
But more importantly what I really said is that "you don't need time to be what you already
are". That is not the same thing as the article you quoted. This saying in fact acts like a koan
on the mind, stopping it dead in its' tracks. But you have to really want the truth if it is to act
that way for you.
quote:
This is a misinterpretation of what I am saying. I am not saying that everyone can and
does experience clarity right now. What I am saying is that since I see clearly now, I
realize that this clarity has always been there. And what is true for me is true for all
others because there really are no others and also because all others are like me and all
others are me.
But more importantly what I really said is that "you don't need time to be what you
already are". That is not the same thing as the article you quoted. This saying in fact
acts like a koan on the mind, stopping it dead in its' tracks. But you have to really want
the truth if it is to act that way for you.
I see...
quote:
The cracking sound of the door, engine starting, the movement of the air when it
touches the skinwhere is the spaceousness and what is I before interpretation.
From subtle fear to interpret due to prior intense confusion to joy in getting grounded
in Isness.
Isness spreads and is experienced as transients. One dirties his hand and dwell back into
the world of interpretations without identification.
For those who don't catch what Thusness is talking about here, this is a very very good
article: Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana Deconstruction of Time -- check out the
Nondual Thinking article
Maggot: 09 July 2007 12:19 AM
quote:
This is amazing
quote:
Here are some quotations from Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana Deconstruction of
Time, please read the entire article of 'non-dual thinking' to understand more deeply.
...In Ch'an, the fifth of Kuo-an Shih-yuan's Ten Oxherding Pictures describes a stage of
enlightenment in which thoughts too are not to be rejected: "Enlightenment brings the
realization that thoughts are not unreal since even they arise from our True-nature. It is
only because delusion still remains that they are imagined to be unreal". [2]
The problem is not thoughts per se but more specifically a certain type of thinking, variously
called "reasoning", "conceptualizing", "dualistic thinking", etc....
...The etymologies of vijnana and prajna are revealing. Both have the same root jna, "to
know". The vi- prefix of vijnana (also in vi-kalpa and vi-tarka) signifies "separation or
differentiation"; hence it refers to that type of knowing which functions by
discriminating one thing from another--the most fundamental discrimination being that of the
knower from the known. In contrast, the pra-prefix of prajna means "being born or
springing up" [8] -- presumably by itself, evidently referring to a more spontaneous type of
knowing in which the thought no longer seems to be the product of a subject, but is
experienced as arising from a deeper nondual source. In such knowing the thought and
that which is conscious of the thought are one. One important implication of this is that it
is impossible to observe one's thoughts objectively. The Siksasamuccaya of Santideva
contains a meditation on thought which dwells on this point:
...For thought, Kasyapa, cannot be apprehended, inside or outside, or in between both. For
thought is immaterial, invisible,, non-resisting, inconceivable, unsupported and homeless.
Thought has never been seen by any of the Buddhas, nor do they see it, nor will they see it.
. . . A thought is like the stream of a river, without any staying power; as soon as it is
produced it breaks up and disappears. ... A thought is like lightning, it breaks up in a
moment and does not stay on....
Searching for thought all round, he does not see it within or without... Can then thought
review thought? No, thought cannot review thought. As the blade of a sword cannot cut
itself, as a finger-tip cannot touch itself, so a thought cannot see itself. [9]
But this seems contradicted by our experience. Surely thought can review itself; doesn't
this happen often, whenever we ponder the logical implications of some thought as part of
a sequence of reasoning? The point of the passage must be that the various thought-
elements of such a sequence do not co-exist in the mind at the same time. At any moment
there can be only one thought; a "review" of that thought, or any other thought that
arises, is a completely new thought. The next section will explore the implications of this....
...The intentionality of "dualistic" consciousness is essential to the nondualist, for this is

implied by the claim that there is no self apart from its experience. John Levy has elaborated
this concept into what is perhaps the classic argument against subject-object duality:
When I am conscious of an object, that is, of a notion or a precept, that object alone is
present. When I am conscious of my perceiving, what alone presents itself to consciousness
is the notion that I perceive the object: and therefore the notion of my being the perceiver
also constitutes an object of consciousness. From this, a most important fact emerges: the
so-called subject who thinks. and its apparent object, have no immediate relation.
... the notion, I am reading, does not occur while we are thus absorbed in reading a book: it
occurs only when our attention wavers. . . .a little reflection will show that even when we
are not thus absorbed for any appreciable lapse of time, the subject who afterwards lays
claim to the action was not present to consciousness when the action was taking place. The
idea of our being the agent occurs to us as a separate thought, which is to say that it forms
an entirely fresh object of consciousness'. And since, at the time of the occurrence, we
were present as neither the thinker, the agent, the percipient, nor the enjoyer, no
subsequent claim on our part could alter the position...
If the notions of subject and object are both the separate objects of consciousness, neither
term has any real significance. An object, in the absence of a subject, cannot be what is
normally called an object; and the subject, in the absence of an object, cannot be what is
normally called the subject. It is in memory that the two notions seem to combine to form
an entirely new notion, I am the perceiver or the thinker. [14]
...The significance of the Śiksāsamuccaya passage, quoted at the end of

Section I, becomes evident: If memory "wrongly interpreted" is "synonymous" with
individual existence because it is a case of "thought reviewing thought", then the
experience of each thought as autonomous will eliminate that sense of individual
existence--that is, the sense of subject-object duality...
...But the question that arises first is in what way one can ever be attached to thoughts if, as
the Śiksāsamuccaya says, a thought has no staying power, that like lightning it
breaks up in a moment and disappears. Hui Neng answers this later in the Platform Sutra
when he says more about "how to think":
In the exercise of our thinking faculty, let the past be dead. If we allow our thoughts, past,
present and future, to link up in a series, we put ourselves under restraint. On the other hand,
if we never let our mind attach to anything, we shall gain liberation.
(my emphasis [21])
One clings to a thought by allowing the thoughts to link up in a series, which means
having one's next thought "caused", as it were, by the previous thoughts, rather than
letting each thought arise spontaneously and nondually.
According to the autobiographical first part of the Platform Sutra, Hui Neng became
deeply enlightened and realized that all things in the universe are his self-nature, upon
hearing a line from the Diamond Sutra: "Let your thought arise without fixing it
anywhere". [22] The passage just prior to this one-which Hui Neng must also have heard-
puts this in context. Edward Conze translates it as follows:
Therefore then, Subhuti, the Bodhisattva should produce an unsupported thought, a

thought which is nowhere supported, which is not supported (apratisthiti) by forms,
sounds, smells, tastes, touchables, or objects of mind. [23]
A thought is "Unsupported" because it does not arise in dependence upon anything else,
not "caused" by another thought ("mind-objects" and of course not "produced" by a
thinker, which the Bodhisattva realizes does, not exist. Such an "unsupported thought",
then, is praja, arising by itself nondually...
Ok, this is the part Thusness just mentioned to me again just now:
...The image of a worm hesitant to leave its hold was used in a personal conversation I had
in 1981 with a Theravada monk from Thailand, a meditation master named Phra
Khemananda. This was before I discovered the passage from Ramana Maharshi; what
Khemananda said was not prompted by any remark of mine, but was taught to him by his
own teacher in Thailand. He began by drawing the following diagram:
Each oval represents a thought, he said; normally, we leave one thought only when we
have another one to go to (as the arrows indicate), but to think in this way constitutes
ignorance. Instead, we should realize that thinking is actually like this:
Then we will understand the true nature of thoughts: that thoughts do not arise from each
other but by themselves.
This understanding of thoughts-not-linking-up-in-a-series but springing up nondually is

consistent with D. T. Suzuki's conception of prajna:
It is important to note here that prajna wants to see its diction "quickly" apprehended, giving
us no intervening moment for reflection or analysis or interpretation. Prajna for this reason
is frequently likened to a flash of lightning or to a spark from two striking pieces of flint.
"Quickness" does not refer to progress of time; it means immediacy, absence of deliberation,
no allowance for an intervening proposition, no passing from premises to conclusion. [28]...
Yes. When we practice, it is not about making meaningful sense of anything. There is no
chaining of a moment of thought to the next moment, that chaining, linking and assocating is
interpretation. When we do that, immediately we are involved in a story of becoming and the
birth of time.
Only the 'I' chains and interprets, when we are free from interpretation and identification,
there is no chaining effect, there is only spontaneity and clarity. Presence is seen as it is.
This is a very important passage, it is not about sounding nice but what actually happens
when we are directly experiencing thought.
When we say we are not thought, we are not directly experiencing thought. The luminous
and emptiness nature of thought is lost. When we say I am not thought, we are abstracting
moment to moment of thought-luminosity and personifying these momentary self-
luminosities into an entity, this is the birth of separation. Not only we missed the essence of
what thought is, we identify with a background that does not exist. By so doing we are
reacting according to momentum rather than seeing thought as it is.
There is nothing scary about impermanence; it is only the mind that wrongly misinterprets
permanence and changelessness as pivotal attributes of liberation and peace. In actual fact,
it is the emptiness nature that liberates. Luminosity must be allowed to renew itself, must be
allowed to arise and subside in spontaneity for liberation to take place. A practitioner can
experience Presence yet still misinterpret Presence. Seeing what thought really is, the
transients are not discarded but correctly understood. Without rejecting thoughts, energy is
not spent on fighting against itself and one becomes effortless and spontaneous. This is the
entry into pathless.
My 2 cents.
quote:

This is a very important passage, it is not about sounding nice but what actually
happens when we are directly experiencing thought.
When we say we are not thought, we are not directly experiencing thought. The
luminous and emptiness nature of thought is lost. When we say I am not thought, we
are abstracting moment to moment of thought-luminosity and personifying these
momentary self-luminosities into an entity, this is the birth of separation. Not only we
missed the essence of what thought is, we identify with a background that does not exist.
By so doing we are reacting according to momentum rather than seeing thought as it is.
There is nothing scary about impermanence; it is only the mind that wrongly
misinterprets permanence and changelessness as pivotal attributes of liberation and
peace. In actual fact, it is the emptiness nature that liberates. Luminosity must be
allowed to renew itself, must be allowed to arise and subside in spontaneity for
liberation to take place. A practitioner can experience Presence yet still misinterpret
Presence. Seeing what thought really is, the transients are not discarded but correctly
understood. Without rejecting thoughts, energy is not spent on fighting against itself
and one becomes effortless and spontaneous. This is the entry into pathless.
My 2 cents.
Hi, thanks for sharing There is nothing wrong with thoughts, it's only when we 'review'
past thoughts and experiences, objectify them and sees them as entities, and forms a dualistic
relation that is the problem..
quote:

This is a very important passage, it is not about sounding nice but what actually
happens when we are directly experiencing thought.
When we say we are not thought, we are not directly experiencing thought. The
luminous and emptiness nature of thought is lost. When we say I am not thought, we
are abstracting moment to moment of thought-luminosity and personifying these
momentary self-luminosities into an entity, this is the birth of separation. Not only we
missed the essence of what thought is, we identify with a background that does not exist.
By so doing we are reacting according to momentum rather than seeing thought as it is.
There is nothing scary about impermanence; it is only the mind that wrongly
misinterprets permanence and changelessness as pivotal attributes of liberation and
peace. In actual fact, it is the emptiness nature that liberates. Luminosity must be
allowed to renew itself, must be allowed to arise and subside in spontaneity for
liberation to take place. A practitioner can experience Presence yet still misinterpret
Presence. Seeing what thought really is, the transients are not discarded but correctly
understood. Without rejecting thoughts, energy is not spent on fighting against itself
and one becomes effortless and spontaneous. This is the entry into pathless.
My 2 cents.
I quoted this from longchen yesterday from his forum:
quote:

This is by our forummer, Longchen:
Dear Friends,
If you want to experience non-duality, you must completely let go. That means you must
not argue with yourself and you must not run away from any sensation, thoughts or feeling
that is being felt at that moment.
You must not give yourself excuse to be not what you are at that moment. You must not
reason yourself away from the situation that you are in at that particular moment.
If this persist long enough, something 'magical' will be percieved...
Kabbalah and Philosophy: An Explosion of

Forum Topic:
Opposites (Source:
Hi Jean,
I agree that its a perception thing.
The way I prefer to view it is that behind everything is spirit, everything is spiritual, and
spirituality simply refers to ones degree of awareness of spirit.
I remember my first thoughts of what spirit was There was me, a body, and a spirit was
something invisible that followed me around hovering above my head. hehe
Over time it gradually morphed, or reversed, to the perception I have now. Which is, I am the
spirit, never lonely, and best of all, we dont die.
cheers
The way I prefer to view it is that behind everything is spirit,

....I am the spirit, never lonely, and best of all, we dont die.
Hi Karmakanic,
You have just described the 'I AM' stage. At 'I AM' stage, we view that there is a universal
spirit behind phemonena... that is "I am the spirit".
The next stage of realisation is that the 'sense of self' is not the doer of action. This is a major
realisation that will lead to the experience of non-duality. Actually, non-duality is an entire
band of consciousness. .. with different depths of luminosity.
Why is it call non-dual is because there is no 2 things at that stage of experience. There is no
inner and outer... because inner and outer are really perceptions of the senses. At this stage,
space and location are experienced as perceptions. And the same thing applies to the other
senses as well.
regards
Hi Simpo
Thanks, thats pinpointing the terms for me better now.
What you call non-duality I have experienced a number of times, not in meditation but while
in a walking, talking, conscious state.
To me it is simply another level of awareness everyone grows toward, although seemingly

slow at the moment.
The first time began about 1 week before I was due to leave PNG. As I looked into the eyes
of people I was interacting with, I started to know what people were saying, completely,
without knowing much of the language, I could see lips move and hear the sound but
somehow they were not the source of my receiving the message. As best as I can put it, I just
knew what people were going to say, knew what they were feeling. I realized then I was
conscious of the mind ocean (to pick a term). I think its the same as what you call band of
consciousness.. with many depths of luminosity. I knew it wasnt a just a wave of Telepathic
ability suddenly bestowed upon me or something, because of the way I felt and what
happened for three weeks. Although, telepathy was part of it.
You speak of a next stage of realization that leads to non-duality, the sense of self. With the
meaning I draw from the phrase sense of self, I have trouble seeing it as a separate stage as
such, for me it is a growing awareness happening along the way. Maybe thats a difference
between states induced by meditation and a state from living for it.
You loose me when you talk about inner and outer.. but I gather the fundamental common
element with each our understanding is that with Oneness, perception is no longer part of the
process. It is purely being. I purposely dont go further to define it, because its like trying to
comprehend the incomprehensible. Like a baby chicken, yet to be hatched, trying to explain
what life is like being a chook. While its good to ponder, there is hatching to focus on.
I remain concluded that what happens before Oneness is each our own way, there is one
reality to know and we have free will. Which is what I find interesting, how we have unique
paths and approaches, but which eventually lead to the same place. And theres another term
- Harmonic Convergence.
Cheers and thanks again,

Hi Karmakanic,
Just a sharing of opinions and expereinces.
You mentioned that "with Oneness, perception is no longer part of the process.". I agree. Did
you notice that during those times there is an intense brightness being experienced... That is
the luminosity that I was referring to.
"Sense of self" is not the do-er/controller of any action is a discovery. I will try to explain
this sentence. .. For example, when we are crying or in pain...can we stop ourself from
expereincing those things at that moment. The answer is no. But, we wanted very much to
stop those feelings. The 'sense of self' is the 'I' that wanted to stop those expereinces. The
discovery is that this 'sense of self' is helpless in getting the expereinces to stop, therefore it is
not the controller/do-er of any action.
After sometime of dropping the 'sense of self', you will discover that this 'sense of self' is not
an entity at all, but are arising and passing desires. You may also discover that this 'sense of
self' is the agent that cause the impression of having something 'outside of you.' That is what i
meant that in truth there are no outer and inner. And that space and time is really an illusion.
This also explains nicely why it is possible to 'know' things intutively. Because there is truly
no distance between any 2 locations.
regards
Yes definitely, brightness in sense of uplifting. A feeling of invincibility, not in a sense that I
wanted to go around conquering things and people (very much the opposite), but in a sense
that any of lifes dramas or dangers just couldnt touch me, despite being amongst it, and an
incredible urge to be among people like never before. Also, and the most significant aspect
for me was the feeling of immortality, the confidence and self-reliance that flowed on from
that was empowering. I believe the king of fears, underlying all others, is the fear of death.
Oh, once again the different meaning we see in terms, sense of self I interpret as the
growing awareness of ones true self, the changing from false perception to true perception.
Not false in a judgmental manner, but false in the sense there is only one truth. Like when I
first thought spirit was something hovering above that followed me around, and when we
thought the Earth was flat. Its fair to say they are false perceptions.
The shifting from False to True perception is indicated by the term balance of polarities. By
degree of false perception (or lack of truth) we are polarized. (duality)
I follow your explanation on sense of self, so now I can confidently disagree.
The sense of self you speak of, I still see that as part of our perception, part of our
consciousness. Its what we think we are at the time. Its not something to be dropped aside,
but something to be trained-up. It is not helpless because it is an aspect of you.
This training-up is the learning from experience, and if the resulting new perception is true,
then (providing the new perception is stabilized by the practice of it) the polarity is balanced
on that issue, the compensating energy is no longer required, therefore the unpleasant
experience shall not come again. In a nutshell, thats my understanding of the law of
compensation, or Karma.
What mostly happens though is the change of perception is from false perception to false
perception. Evidenced by the common trait of treating the effects of attitudes rather than
healing the attitude itself, or in other words, treating the symptoms as the cause. We do this
particularly well in medicine and health.
Further on this point, you say, sense of self, is the agent that causes the impression of having
something outside of you.
Again sense of self is not an agent, its you, its your perception. The key word in the above
quote is impression, which is a perception, and because the perception is that its outside of
yourself, it is simply an understanding not in alignment with truth, yet.
I can see the need to drop sense of self for meditation purposes, because that is the noise of
the mind that needs to be by-passed. But, when polarities are balanced, the noise is not there,
no by-pass is required, thus meditation is not necessary, because perceptions are in alignment
with truth. Basically, you are living truth, free of compensating energies. This is the
conscious mind converging, or aligning, with spirit. Also put, its duality dissipating away.
And to me thats all enlightenment is, the conscious unveiling of your own light, or spirit.
Perception (input) and articulation (output), to put it one way, is like the end function in the
process of manifesting our polarities in the physical. It is not the originator of doing but is
part of the process of the doing.
One last thing that may help see my reasoning further. Space and time, the physical realm, is
not an illusion, its our perceptions that are the illusion, by design for our learning purpose.
So its our perceptions that we ought to change, not conditions.
Surely you cant be saying the trees and singing birds outside my window are not real? And
what about my dog Rusty
As you know, nothing personal, just putting it forward for consideration.
Cheers and regards

Hi Karmakanic,
You have misunderstood what i was saying... It's OK.
This underlies the difficulties in explaining something that has to be experienced in order to
be understood.
The Brightness that I am referring to is not a feeling of uplifting... but a real experience of
Brightness as in a Sun. It is as if consciousness in its raw state is something that is bright or
even brighter than the Sun.
One must experience it to know what is being spoken. Unfortunately, excessive thinking and
reasoning and the 'sense of self' simply cover the raw intensity, brightness and power of pure
awareness.
It is sad... because I sincerely wish more people can experience it... Otherwise, you don't
really know what your true nature is and how is it related to the universe.
regards
oh, and after all that writing
Well, I trust that what I wrote was somewhat comprehendible.

No i didn't see brightness as such. As you say there are many depths to illumination, so i
think i was experiencing illumination to some degree. I recognize there are certain
characteristics unique to each individual, particularly for first time experiences.
Illumination to me is simply another term for spiritual awareness, or self awareness

progressed to a point where illumination begins to be experienced. I think we get caught up
when the term 'self' is used.
I agree, I see these stages as something everyone can attain, although each has their own
timing. I think what holds people back is a pervading perception that it's something too
mystical and non-understandable such that it cannot be attained unless one puts a robe on,
shaves the head, and sits on a mountain top for 30 years.
cheers
oh, and after all that writing
Well, I trust that what I wrote was somewhat comprehendible.
Sorry Pal, didn't meant to sound rude . Yes, I understand what you are writing... certainly.
I agree, I see these stages as something everyone can attain, although

each has their own timing. I think what holds people back is a pervading
perception that it's something too mystical and non-understandable such
that it cannot be attained unless one puts a robe on, shaves the head, and
sits on a mountain top for 30 years.
I too believe that everybody can attain at their own pace...and that it is not necessary to be a
monk to do so. But, it certainly helps to be in a conducive environment. BTW: I have been a
Buddhist monk before in a previous life... so this life is more like a continuation of my
spiritual journey.
Kind regards
and apologies if i have sounded rude. Sometimes, i am not too tactful..sorry.

Thats cool Simpo, I didnt think you were rude. I only thought shit, what is he talking about
then.
It is an art to write these things out without sounding like stamping ones truth over all, like I
did. Its not intended that way. Im only interested in the understanding one may extract.
In fact I wish you would pick on my writings where you see another explanation (or
extension to a point) can be given. But I need the response to draw from the context in which
I have expressed. That way I have a point of reference to relate from. Which you have done a
couple of times. Thankyou
Anyway, Im having a rest
Cheers
Ego and bodywork (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2749 ~ Now-For-You
Forum)
Cheshirecat: Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:47 pm
One of my friends, a patient I work with at the chiropractor's office, recently became a
massage therapist. She came in today to get some work and mentioned she's noticing lately
that the moment she touches a client's body, she tunes in so easily, it scares her! - "tuning"
meaning, she can sense what is going on and know what to do without understanding how
she arrived at this. We talked a little about it.
I told her I remembered when it dawned on me that I could know things about a person's
body without touching them - just by tuning in. Like focusing into my sister-in-law's painful
back when her back was turned to me as she was leaving the room and "seeing" exactly
where the source of pain was. And how (being totally identified with the mind) it alarmed
me!! Like "I shouldn't be able to do that!"
Other similar experiences would make me say "Whoa! I don't like this! I'm used to taking
steps to arrive at a destination. I need time to arrive. I use logic to figure things out. When
information comes full force instantly, I'm not in control - how scary is that?!"
Ego loves to be in control. It likes to think that IT achieves, IT makes things happen.
Bodywork sometimes has a way of blowing that idea to bits.
Passerby: Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Ego and bodywork
cheshirecat wrote:
One of my friends, a patient I work with at the chiropractor's office, recently
became a massage therapist. She came in today to get some work and mentioned
she's noticing lately that the moment she touches a client's body, she tunes in so
easily, it scares her! - "tuning" meaning, she can sense what is going on and know
what to do without understanding how she arrived at this. We talked a little about
it.
I told her I remembered when it dawned on me that I could know things about a
person's body without touching them - just by tuning in. Like focusing into my
sister-in-law's painful back when her back was turned to me as she was leaving the
room and "seeing" exactly where the source of pain was. And how (being totally
identified with the mind) it alarmed me!! Like "I shouldn't be able to do that!"
Other similar experiences would make me say "Whoa! I don't like this! I'm used to
taking steps to arrive at a destination. I need time to arrive. I use logic to figure
things out. When information comes full force instantly, I'm not in control - how
scary is that?!"
Ego loves to be in control. It likes to think that IT achieves, IT makes things

happen. Bodywork sometimes has a way of blowing that idea to bits.
Yes Cheshirecat, I fully agree.
This is because we are so conditioned that whenever we analyze, we are already fully
convinced and pre-assumed the existence of time and separation -- a deeply held truth in our
inmost consciousness. That is why we cant understand. Wcannot experience the full essence
of this non-local aspect of our pristine awareness due to these propensities.
An Eternal Now:
cheshirecat wrote:
One of my friends, a patient I work with at the chiropractor's office, recently
became a massage therapist. She came in today to get some work and mentioned
she's noticing lately that the moment she touches a client's body, she tunes in so
easily, it scares her! - "tuning" meaning, she can sense what is going on and know
what to do without understanding how she arrived at this. We talked a little about
it.
I told her I remembered when it dawned on me that I could know things about a
person's body without touching them - just by tuning in. Like focusing into my
sister-in-law's painful back when her back was turned to me as she was leaving the
room and "seeing" exactly where the source of pain was. And how (being totally
identified with the mind) it alarmed me!! Like "I shouldn't be able to do that!"
Other similar experiences would make me say "Whoa! I don't like this! I'm used to
taking steps to arrive at a destination. I need time to arrive. I use logic to figure
things out. When information comes full force instantly, I'm not in control - how
scary is that?!"
Ego loves to be in control. It likes to think that IT achieves, IT makes things

happen. Bodywork sometimes has a way of blowing that idea to bits.
In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by
physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important
experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact,
unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard
Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of
science.
Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as
electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance
separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart.
Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this
feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than
the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the
time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with
elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even
more radical explanations.
University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply
that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a
phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram..... (continued)
---------------------

jewel" ...".
The moral of Indra's net is that the compassionate and the constructive interventions a person
makes or does can produce a ripple effect of beneficial action that will reverberate throughout
the universe or until it plays out. By the same token you cannot damage one strand of the web
without damaging the others or setting off a cascade effect of destruction.
Source: Awakening 101
...One of the images used to illustrate the nature of reality as understood in Mahayana is The
there to grasp....
Source: Sunyata ('Emptiness')
Compare the first picture with:

Computer model of early universe. Gravity arranges matter in thin filaments.
Source: Awakening 101.
Cheshirecat: Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:

Passerby wrote:
This is because we are so conditioned that whenever we analyze, we are already

fully convinced and pre-assumed the existence of time and separation -- a deeply
held truth in our inmost consciousness.
Very clearly and succinctly put. Thanks! When discussing these kinds of things with people
in my personal life, I often say "my experience of time and space is that they aren't what they
seem". But I never saw the direct correlation between analyzing and the conviction of time
and separation so clearly until just now, reading your observation.
Passerby wrote:
That is why we cant understand. Wcannot experience the full essence of this non-
local aspect of our pristine awareness due to these propensities.
And now nice it is to simply relax into this non-local aspect without the need to understand.
Passerby: Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:
cheshirecat wrote:
Passerby wrote:
This is because we are so conditioned that whenever we analyze, we are

already fully convinced and pre-assumed the existence of time and
separation -- a deeply held truth in our inmost consciousness.
Very clearly and succinctly put. Thanks! When discussing these kinds of things
with people in my personal life, I often say "my experience of time and space is
that they aren't what they seem". But I never saw the direct correlation between
analyzing and the conviction of time and separation so clearly until just now,
reading your observation.
Passerby wrote:
That is why we cant understand. Wcannot experience the full essence of
this non-local aspect of our pristine awareness due to these propensities.
And now nice it is to simply relax into this non-local aspect without the need to
understand.
Thanks Cheshirecat,
Glad it makes sense. Space, time, life, death, in and out are all deeply held impressions.
We are seldom aware of the deeply held until we are able to rest adequately in naked
awareness. The nakedness creates the big contrast that provides us the condition for the
arising of the insight of the 'deeply held'. However my experience is insight into the full
power of our propensities and resting in naked awareness are both equally
crucial in our understanding of our non-dual and non-local nature.
Thanks for the DNA links. Real interesting.

Amadeus: Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Space, time, life, death, in and out are all deeply held impressions. We are
seldom aware of the deeply held until we are able to rest adequately in naked
awareness. The nakedness creates the big contrast that provides us the condition
for the arising of the insight of the 'deeply held'. However my experience is insight
into the full power of our propensities and resting in naked awareness are both
equally
Cheshirecat: Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:27 am Post subject:
Yes, good to "see" you, Flower. Boy, what a storm in the UK! Glad to hear you are doing
ok.
Laurie wrote:
My DNA is very cheery at the moment.
Feelings of intense love with our Peanut Butter Cup Ice Cream now.
Ahhhh! Now you're talkin'!
Passerby wrote:
Glad it makes sense. Space, time, life, death, in and out are all deeply held
impressions. We are seldom aware of the deeply held until we are able to rest
adequately in naked awareness. The nakedness creates the big contrast that
provides us the condition for the arising of the insight of the 'deeply held'.
However my experience is insight into the full power of our propensities and
resting in naked awareness are both equally crucial in our understanding of
our non-dual and non-local nature.
Passerby, can you go into this bolded portion more deeply, please?
Clare, thanks for the information on Huna and grokking. I loved reading about your nephew
and fancy pants. It sounds like one aspect of grokking seems to be that it is an interesting way
of listening to something or someone through "becoming it". A willingness to be without
concepts if only for a moment, and being open for something entirely new to enter. I wonder
how world leaders would interact once they grokked each other.
Amadeus: Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:01 am Post subject:
CC wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Passerby wrote:
Glad it makes sense. Space, time, life, death, in and out are all deeply
held impressions. We are seldom aware of the deeply held until we are
able to rest adequately in naked awareness. The nakedness creates the big
contrast that provides us the condition for the arising of the insight of the
'deeply held'. However my experience is insight into the full power of
our propensities and resting in naked awareness are both equally
I'd like to answer that and see if Passerby can comment on my answer also.
My experience is that I'm becoming more and more aware of the depth of conditioning
(propensities?) and realizing more and more that everything I took myself to be, everything I
took reality to be, is just an appearance, just conditioning. This is not a denial of the apparent
existence of "the story" but rather a more wholesome seeing of it, including the emptiness out
of which it is arising. Nothing is denied. And yet nothing is as it seems to be.
Let's take for instance the slow death of my mom. We arranged to keep her at home as she
wished, and we were able to be with her most of time during her slow decline. I felt, all this
while, a "holding on" to my mother, to the situation, as if I couldn't let go until she let go.
And that is exactly what happened, when she let go (died), I also automatically let go also. So
the experiences that we have are all based on the conglomeration of beliefs that we hold. My
belief was that I had to be there for my mom and take care of her right up to the end. I had
another brother who went about doing his job, and only came over when we asked him for
help. His experience of my mother's death would be entirely different than mine, as would be
his beliefs and conditioning.
I equate this "holding on" I was doing or that was doing me, to the "holding on" done by
families of "kidnap victims", it feels to be the same kind of holding on. If feels like an
identification with a particular situation and person and a wanting of a certain outcome. To be
totally immersed in a very intense story and to be aware of it, is quite liberating. And yet it
didnt' seem to do anything to alleviate the intensity of the moment.
Passerby: Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject:
cheshirecat wrote:
Passerby wrote:
However my experience is insight into the full power of our
propensities and resting in naked awareness are both equally
I do not know how to explain just that to consciousness 'propensities' (deep conditioning or
imprints) are all that matters. It is the only 'force' that blinds, bonds and prevents a
liberating experience. Once formed it remains latent and only surface when conditions are
riped for fruition. We are unable to get rid of it by will. Therefore to know consciousness, it
is also to know the impact of deep conditioning, how it is formed and how it subsides. There
is really no 'why', it is just how consciousness works.
If we dropped our body, we experience astral body.

If we dropped our thoughts, we experience I AM.
If we dropped I, we experience non-duality.
Every major 'dropped' results in a totally new experiential reality. Perhaps that is why Lao
Tze teaches us to eliminate until none to experience Tao.
Passerby: Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
My experience is that I'm becoming more and more aware of the depth of
conditioning (propensities?) and realizing more and more that everything I took
myself to be, everything I took reality to be, is just an appearance, just
conditioning. This is not a denial of the apparent existence of "the story" but rather
a more wholesome seeing of it, including the emptiness out of which it is
arising. Nothing is denied. And yet nothing is as it seems to be.
Yes jonls, agree with the example u gave. A good one and propensities and deep conditioning
are exchangeable terms.
There is also another deep conditioning called cognitive obscuration in Buddhism. Lets
take awareness for example, when we first experienced the I AM, the mind very quickly
ascribed all sort of attributes to that experience according to our stored information. This
tendency to objectify is also part of deep conditioning.
It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we unknowingly
objectified these attributes into an entity and make it an eternal background or an emptiness
void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and
manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category
and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been
the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of
these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not disowned
and impermanence nature taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self.
Impermanence is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual
thoughts. Impermanence is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual
experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without
movement, change without going anywhere. This is the what is of impermanence. It is just
so.
Amadeus: Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject:
Hi Passerby,
Quote:
Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned.
Yes, I have been doing this. It's almost as if I've needed to hold a "position" with regard to
thoughts. And that position is to disown them.
Quote:
In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the
observed.
This sounds very good.
Quote:
Therefore to know consciousness, it is also to know the impact of deep
conditioning, how it is formed and how it subsides. There is really no 'why', it is
just how consciousness works.
I know what you are saying here. It's interesting sometimes I have no idea what you are
talking about, probably, because I haven't achieved the level of discrimination you are
describing at the time.
Thank you.
Cheshirecat: Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
I do not know how to explain just that to consciousness 'propensities' (deep
conditioning or imprints) are all that matters. It is the only 'force' that blinds, bonds
and prevents a liberating experience. Once formed it remains latent and only
surface when conditions are riped for fruition. We are unable to get rid of it by
will. Therefore to know consciousness, it is also to know the impact of deep
conditioning, how it is formed and how it subsides. There is really no 'why', it is
just how consciousness works.
If we dropped our body, we experience astral body.

If we dropped our thoughts, we experience I AM.
If we dropped I, we experience non-duality.
Every major 'dropped' results in a totally new experiential reality. Perhaps that is
why Lao Tze teaches us to eliminate until none to experience Tao.
Wow! That is very clear. Thanks, Passerby.

An Eternal Now: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:42 am Post subject:
Just want to add on to this part:
Passerby wrote:
It is odorless, formless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes and we
unknowingly objectified these attributes into an entity and make it an eternal
background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from
experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness.
Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In
actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the
observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification
of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts are not
disowned and impermanence nature taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of
no-self. Impermanence is never what it seems to be, never what that is
understood in conceptual thoughts. Impermanence is not what the mind has
conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence
nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going
anywhere. This is the what is of impermanence. It is just so.
Just now was flipping through a Dalai Lama book and found this which I think was well
written:
http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/hhdl/happinesskarma.shtml
...Through the gates of the five sense organs a being sees, hears, smells, tastes and comes into
contact with a host of external forms, objects and impressions. Let the form, sound, smell,
taste, touch and mental events which are the relations of the six senses be shut off. When this
is done the recollection of past events on which the mind tends to dwell will be completely
discontinued and the flow of memory cut off. Similarly, plans for the future and
contemplation of future action must not be allowed to arise. It is necessary to create a space
in place of all such processes of thought if one is to empty the mind of all such processes of
thought. Freed from all these processes there will remain a pure, clean, distinct and quiescent
mind. Now let us examine what sort of characteristics constitute the mind when it has
attained this stage. We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to
recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire
load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been
cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external
objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such
false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from
here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with
no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it
encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person
who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance
of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one
experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-
consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving
gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external
phenomena, is also of a gross nature. When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and
when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the
characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be
taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the
form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the
nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross
obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned
the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of
mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are
its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.
There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as
the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer
upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and
this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate
within state.
All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge
are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions
(nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment
it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its
nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including
consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a
further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind.
Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind
is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing
the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind,
which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a
powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis
will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and
cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its
existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent
quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of
the self.
Of these two aspects, viz. the ultimate true nature of mind and a knowledge of that ultimate
true nature, the former is the base, the latter an attribute. Mind (self) is the basis and all its
different states are attributes. However, the basis and its attributes have from the first
pertained to the same single essence. The non-self-created (depending on a cause other than
itself) mind entity (basis) and its essence, sunyata, have unceasingly existed as the one, same,
inseparable essence from beginningless beginning. The nature of sunyata pervades all
elements. As we are now and since we cannot grasp or comprehend the indestructible,
natural, ultimate reality (sunyata) of our own minds, we continue to commit errors and our
defects persist....
Forum Topic: question about the source

quote:
Originally posted by maggot:
Still an extremely long way to trace back to the source for me
Dun need to trace back.
The Source is just too direct to be seen.
How to experience it? Don't try to escape to anywhere or wait for some becoming. Stay
'unmoving' to the present even if it is unpleasant... and see what happens...
quote:

Dun need to trace back.
The Source is just too direct to be seen.
So direct until no overlay is needed on top of forms. There is no such images really. When
there is complete clarity, there is complete transparency. When there is complete tranparency,
awareness shines as forms.
quote:
Even when fainting, when passing out, when death dawns, experience completely, experience
experience!
quote:
Even when fainting, when passing out, when death dawns, experience completely,
experience experience!
I sincerely hope that I can be that 'zai' at the time of death

quote:
I sincerely hope that I can be that 'zai' at the time of death
Me too!
quote:
Just to add something about the 'unmoving' part.
After the experience of no-self (Buddhism non-duality):
1. First, symbolic and conceputal experiences are replaced by directness and immediateness.
Before non-dual experience, directness and immediateness arent there. The mind is
unable to see the 'how of non-doing', therefore concepts are formed.
2. Later, constant engagement in nakedness and directness will give rise to the full blown
experience of Awareness as Forms as Manifestations as Appearances. That is from
'immediate experience' into as that -- Awareness as Impermanence, awareness as
manifestation.
If so, then impermanence is never what it seems to be; never what that is understood in
conceptual thoughts. Impermanence is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In
light of non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence is seen -- passing without
moving, change without time. This is impermanence. A happening without movement,
without going anywhere. The common denominator is experienced.
This is the true face of what u have experienced, the unmoving experience of our
impermanence Tataghata Nature. This also links to the meaning of karma and reality in
Buddhism. Buddhism sees a person, a bird, a flower not as 'entities' but events or activities.
Many fear the dissolution of the 'subject' and the mind will react intitially to such an insight.
Allow the mind to completely accept and not react dualistically, impermanence is exactly
what that is experienced -- clear, effortless and spontaneous. Deconstruct completely and
experience the true face of Awareness.
my 2 cents.

quote:
Just to add something about the 'unmoving' part.
After the experience of no-self (Buddhism non-duality):
1. First, symbolic and conceputal experiences are replaced by directness and

immediateness. Before non-dual experience, directness and immediateness
arent there. The mind is unable to see the 'how of non-doing', therefore concepts
are formed.
2. Later, constant engagement in nakedness and directness will give rise to the
full blown experience of Awareness as Forms as Manifestations as
Appearances. That is from 'immediate experience' into as that -- Awareness as
Impermanence, awareness as manifestation.
If so, then impermanence is never what it seems to be; never what that is understood in
conceptual thoughts. Impermanence is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be.
In light of non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence is seen -- passing without
moving, change without time. This is impermanence. A happening without movement,
without going anywhere. The common denominator is experienced.
This is the true face of what u have experienced, the unmoving experience of our
impermanence Tataghata Nature. This also links to the meaning of karma and reality in
Buddhism. Buddhism sees a person, a bird, a flower not as 'entities' but events or
activities. Many fear the dissolution of the 'subject' and the mind will react intitially to
such an insight. Allow the mind to completely accept and not react dualistically,
impermanence is exactly what that is experienced -- clear, effortless and spontaneous.
Deconstruct completely and experience the true face of Awareness.
my 2 cents.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the elaboration. Point 2 is not so clear to me yet... 'Awareness as Forms' aspect.
quote:
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the elaboration. Point 2 is not so clear to me yet... 'Awareness as Forms'
aspect.
A bit misleading.
It is just refering to not being trapped by our own defnition of awareness and sees it as only
formless, intangible, invisible, colorless, odourless but rather experiencing its color, smell,
texture and fabric in moment to moment of senate experience. Seeing it as arising and ceasing
flow, on the go in actual non-dual experience in great intensity and clarity. Allowing this free
expression of our spontaneous manifesting nature is bliss.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the clarification.
I am learning to live non-dually in different kinds of situation. Quite a challenge, even though
there is awareness of the arising impression that causes the subject-object split. Also, the
mind is now more able to experience the clear difference between dualistic engagement and
non-dual mode. The non-dual mode certainly is more blissful.
What i have noticed is that from the dualistic mode to the non-dual mode, there is a strong
bond(different for different situation). The bond is the attraction to the dualistic perception
and the initial pull away from it causes some feeling of unpleasantness. This happens before
the mind becomes willing enough to drop the dualistic engagement.
Before any non-dual experience, there simply is no way of understanding and comparing the
differences. ..as the mind is 100% in dualistic mode.
Just a sharing of my experiences... with the hope that others can see the benefits.
quote:
Just to share some of my understanding:
I am learning to live non-dually in different kinds of situation. Quite a challenge, even

though there is awareness of the arising impression that causes the subject-object split.
Also, the mind is now more able to experience the clear difference between dualistic
engagement and non-dual mode. The non-dual mode certainly is more blissful.
Just for sharing:
Like samatha meditation, each jhana state represents a stage of bliss associated with certain
level of concentration; the bliss experienced from insight into our nature differs.
The happiness and pleasure experience by a dualistic mind is different from that experienced
by a practitioner. I AMness is a higher form of happiness as compared to a dualistic mind
that continuously chatters. It is a level of bliss associated with a state of transcendence a
state of bliss resulting from the experience of formlessness, odorless, colorless, attributes
and thoughtlessness. No-self or non-dual is higher form of bliss resulted from the direct
experience of Oneness and no-separation. It is related to the dropping of the I. When non-
dual is free from perceptions, that bliss is a form transcendence-oneness. It is what I called
transparency of non-duality.
quote:
What i have noticed is that from the dualistic mode to the non-dual mode, there is a
strong bond(different for different situation). The bond is the attraction to the dualistic
perception and the initial pull away from it causes some feeling of unpleasantness. This
happens before the mind becomes willing enough to drop the dualistic engagement.
What we first overcome is known as the perceptive obscuration of non-duality. I called this
the bond of 'I'. It is a quantum leap in perception that the observer is really the observed. The
'I' does not exist apart from phenomenality.
However to factor such understanding into different kind of situations requires the loosening
of another bond, the bond of 'mine'. The bond may not be obvious even during hours of
naked awareness but surfaces when meeting conditions. Conditions are the mirror to what
that is latently deep in consciousness. This bond like the bond of I is not known through
analysis; it is not about asking why this and why that but is 'known' through a form of
sensing -- sensing with an entire mind and body. This is more to the primordial mode of
knowing where sensing is in the entire flow of body/mind and conditions of arising; it is
knowing on the go.
quote:
Before any non-dual experience, there simply is no way of understanding and comparing the
differences. ..as the mind is 100% in dualistic mode.
Well said! We are unable to let go of the I before non-dual experience even though a
separate I has always been an illusion because there is no seeing.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the sharing and the elaboration.
regards
Pure Love Comes Through When I Dont

Forum Topic:
Know? (Source: http://now-for-

Yougarksooo: Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:56 am Post subject: Pure Love Comes Through
When "I" Don't Know?
To say "I don't know" and really see that I don't know is the most liberating thing today. And
then there's this extra dose of liberation with the seeing that I can't know.
I have lots of observations lately. I've had the realization that this is just One life. Before, that
was a belief I held or some thought I took from a teacher. But I've seen it. And yet the seeing
of that has pulled me back to this simple truth of "I don't know." I think not knowing, and sort
of watching every thought which wanted to know something, was helpful. Possibly this sense
of not knowing ties directly into the fact that in the last awakening "experience" the sense of
me dropped away completely. But truthfully?...I don't know. This is what I think allows the
liberation is be here always, the refusal to truly grasp for answers. But again, I don't know.
So maybe its closer to the truth to say Scott is not here (in the same sense as before) to take
any credit for what is seemingly known. So why there may be conclusions and debate
happening, the sense of me who would have grasped onto that for an identity is all but gone.
I will have plenty of opinions about what I think I know and what I think you know, or what I
think you don't know, but that is just drivel, in the end.
I've got lots to say today. Lots of things to talk about. But when I look within, there isn't
much that I know. And much less that I know absolutely. And that seems to be the thing
which allows this pure love to come through. It just fills up my whole being, in every
moment. In some way, that need to know that was always there before may have been some
attempt by the mind to avoid the full weight of this very pure and big love that is now coming
through. But....I don't know.
Passerby: Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Pure Love Comes Through
When "I" Don't Know?
Fully agree! We are molded to think that we must 'know' and therefore we seek. When the
'sense of self' is gone, there is insight about "not knowing". Peace and calmness for example
are also not about knowing anything. If we are unable to deconstruct from this aspect of
'knowing', we will forever seek and thus, unable to rest in effortless spontaneity.
Just a thought... (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Cheshirecat: Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: Just a thought...
While thought is part of reality, thought doesn't define reality. The only thing that might say
that thought does define reality is a thought. Kinda funny.
It's amazing how quiet the mind gets when this is seen. It's like - what's there to think
about (except when needed for practical matters)? A reduction in mental chatter appears to
happen as the importance of thought is diminished.
Passerby: Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:01 am Post subject: Re: Just a thought...
Fully agree! Rest in naked awareness until there is complete transparency, until awareness is
experienced as forms.
Also I think we should not underestimate the impact of the constant chattering in a dualistic
manner. If we continuously repeat phenomenon arises in awareness and not as
Awareness, even though there never was a separation, consciousness will see as if there is a
separation. Although it may seem to be a casual expression for communication sake, the
impact is subtle. In time to come, the slow and subtle impact will make separation appears
amazingly real. This is true even for those that have experienced non-duality; they are not
spared from it.
My 2 cents.
Amadeus: Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Just a thought...
Passerby wrote:
Fully agree! Rest in naked awareness until there is complete transparency, until
awareness is experienced as forms.
Also I think we should not underestimate the impact of the constant chattering in a
dualistic manner. If we continuously repeat phenomenon arises in awareness and
not as Awareness, even though there never was a separation, consciousness will
see as if there is a separation. Although it may seem to be a casual expression for
communication sake, the impact is subtle. In time to come, the slow and subtle
impact will make separation appears amazingly real. This is true even for those
that have experienced non-duality; they are not spared from it.
My 2 cents.
In other words, be careful what you believe in or what you think. We tend to have many
unconscious assumptions and beliefs. It takes an awake, aware mind to see them.
Yougarksooo: Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject:
Passerby said:
Quote:
If we continuously repeat phenomenon arises in awareness and not as
Awareness, even though there never was a separation, consciousness will see as if
there is a separation. Although it may seem to be a casual expression for
communication sake, the impact is subtle
Yes, i see this. One. Thanks Passerby.

Passerby: Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Just a thought...
Amadeus wrote:
In other words, be careful what you believe in or what you think. We tend to have
many unconscious assumptions and beliefs. It takes an awake, aware mind to see
them.
Yes and not only that. How 'deep conditioning' can be dissolved by being naked in awareness
alone is also important. First the mind must realise that another way of 'knowing' is possible;
an effortless, total sensing and experience of wholeness. Next the experiences of the joy, bliss
and clarity of wholeness. Without the insight into the possiblity and the experience of the
positive factors, the mind will not release itself from holding.
Even open pure and innocent inquiry is a deep conditioning. Makes the mind chatters
incessantly. Every what, when, where and why by itself is a distancing from start. Freeing
itself from such mode of inquiry aka 'knowing', the mind rests. The joy of this resting must be
experienced for the 'willingness' to arise.
Yougarksooo: Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Even open pure and innocent inquiry is a deep conditioning. Makes the mind
chatters incessantly. Every what, when, where and why by itself is a distancing
from start. Freeing itself from such mode of inquiry aka 'knowing', the mind rests.
The joy of this resting must be experienced for the 'willingness' to arise.
Wonderful, thanks.
The Tea Cup Has A Lovely Singing Voice
Forum Topic:
TravisE: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: The Tea Cup Has A Lovely
Singing Voice
Cross posting from my blog:
Odd things happen when you dig into self-inquiry.
I've posted before about the fact that I have retaken a meditation practice into my life. I sit for
25 minutes each morning, right after waking up and doing my morning prayers. It's been
quite invigorating and settling. The format is basically zazen, with my attention directed
gently, but firmly at the feeling of being, and what it means to be. Sometimes insights open
up. Sometimes it's just pleasant.
A couple of days ago, as I was sitting and consciously pointing my awareness at what it is to
be, one of the puzzles I often grapple with came to my mind. I don't try and rid myself of
thoughts when they show up in meditation, but instead remain still and let them do what they
do. This particular puzzle is: trying to come to a gut level acceptance of what the great sages
have said since the very beginning, "All is Silent Awareness." That sort of bounced around
and came up against the constant practice of the inquiry, "Who am I?" On this occasion the
bounce made a spark.
Whenever I follow the question, "Who am I?" as fas as I can, I get to a place where the first
knowing is, "I am." Everything that comes after that is reconstructed from memory or
analysis of current sensory input. It appears that the first truth, and the only continuous truth
is, "I am." That truth is true for everyone. When anyone looks inside, the only things they
cannot deny or argue away, or delude themselves over is the fact that they exist. This is
known absolutely, and is the only thing known absolutely and at all times without variance. If
there is any knowing it first is this, "I am."
For a long time I have added the idea of Awareness on top of that. That seems to be an error.
Awareness is not composed of analysis of being aware, not composed of thoughts made from
the fact of Awareness. Awareness is only Awareness. Awareness is this, "I am." The
assuredness of existence. I had assumed, believed, that to be aware meant having thoughts. It
doesn't. Awareness is before that. Awareness is equal with the simple truth of being.
Objects exist. Each thing has this same authority of being. The cushion I was sitting on, is.
The bit of floor I starred at, is. The thought, "I am," is. Everything that exists, is.
So, the first thing that anything is, is, "I am." Suddenly all things within my Awareness were
that same Awareness sharing the same root Truth.
After I got up from my cushion I went about my morning, barely cognizant of a shift.
Something was happening, but I didn't try very hard to put my finger on it. It was just there,
and itch barely perceived. As I sat with my wife and ate breakfast the vague itch was still
there, persistent but not annoying. I went for another sip of tea, lifted the cup and it sang, "I
am." It didn't literally sing, of course, but it did. The itch I felt was that singing coming from
all around me. The first thing that every object, thought, feeling, encounter, interaction has to
say is this singing of, "I am." As I looked at the cup, and it looked back I said, "huh..." My
sweetie asked what was up, and I explained what I was "hearing."
She said, "Wow, that's cool."
She was right. It is. Everything, everywhere, everywhen sings out in this never ending chorus
that issues from one place only, the Truth. All sings, "I am."
Yougarksooo: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Awareness is only Awareness. Awareness is this, "I am." The assuredness of
existence. I had assumed, believed, that to be aware meant having thoughts. It
doesn't. Awareness is before that. Awareness is equal with the simple truth of
being.
Yes!!!! Great post Travis. Truly looking.

Passerby: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: The Tea Cup Has A Lovely
Singing Voice
Wonderful post!
TravisE wrote:
Objects exist. Each thing has this same authority of being. The cushion I was
sitting on, is. The bit of floor I starred at, is. The thought, "I am," is. Everything
that exists, is.
Just for sharing:

If that is the case, then the source has alway been the manifestaion, Manifestation alone IS.
An additional "I AM" on top of manifestation is 'thought'. That referencing back to a center to
re-confirm is a bad habit, a result of deep conditioning.
TravisE: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Tea Cup Has A Lovely
Singing Voice
Passerby wrote:
Wonderful post!
TravisE wrote:
Objects exist. Each thing has this same authority of being. The cushion I
was sitting on, is. The bit of floor I starred at, is. The thought, "I am," is.
Everything that exists, is.
Just for sharing:

If that is the case, then the source has alway been the manifestaion, Manifestation
alone IS. An additional "I AM" on top of manifestation is 'thought'. That
referencing back to a center to re-confirm is a bad habit, a result of deep
conditioning.
Agreed. The use of the phrase, "I am," is a convention of my language body, just as
Manifestation is for you. I believe we are saying the same thing. Please, give my words no
mind.
Passerby: Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: The Tea Cup Has A Lovely
Singing Voice
TravisE wrote:
Agreed. The use of the phrase, "I am," is a convention of my language body, just
as Manifestation is for you. I believe we are saying the same thing. Please, give my
words no mind.
Agreed!
And wanted to answer CC on the other post about compassion. Everything as You is
compassion.
Holy_longing: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: The Tea Cup Has A
Lovely Singing Voice
Passerby wrote:
TravisE wrote:
Agreed. The use of the phrase, "I am," is a convention of my language

body, just as Manifestation is for you. I believe we are saying the same
thing. Please, give my words no mind.
Agreed!
And wanted to answer CC on the other post about compassion. Everything as You
is compassion.
Wow--what a great thread! I learn so much from how you all express what *is*.
Everything as You is compassion--yes yes!! Thank you for that, Passerby!
Personalizing (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Cheshirecat: Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: Personalizing
Lately I notice simply loving to hear eveyone speak from experience, sharing their
perpsectives. It's beautiful, insightful. An idea is presented at the forum, and other ideas
appear to creatively offshoot from it in an ever changing kalediscope of thought.
As we know, using concepts to communicate can be limiting. How would the color blue be
conveyed in words to a person who has never been sighted, for instance? Or the taste of
chocolate be conveyed to a person who has never been exposed to it? And without specific
recognition of what the sentences represent or point to, a wide range of interpretations can
happen.
I've seen a subject mentioned in passing at the forum that has different interpretations. And
once again would like to offer questions to the forum for further discussion, if there is
interest.
Is peace personal - is there such a thing as "my peace"? "your peace"?
Is suffering personal - is there such a thing as "my suffering"? "your suffering"?
What do you notice? Thanks for all comments.

Amadeus: Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject:
Hi cc,
Good questions about what is personal.
Peace, for me, was never thought of as personal or impersonal, so it doesn't feel like a
relevant question to me personally.
But there is something that comes to mind quite strongly and that is the many feelings and
sensations arising in/from the body. Lately I've had the distint feeling/experience that these
feelings and sensations are not personal. They are arising from or in the body but there is no
longer a very strong "personal feeling" attached to them. It's almost as if they're just part of
the landscape, part of the "now". Part of the ground of being.
If I had to be more precise I think I would say that the body is my vehicle, the one that I am
using at the time. One day it will fall into disrepair and I'll have to abandon it at that time.
That is going to be one hell of an experience!!!
Passerby: Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
But there is something that comes to mind quite strongly and that is the many
feelings and sensations arising in/from the body. Lately I've had the distint
feeling/experience that these feelings and sensations are not personal. They
are arising from or in the body but there is no longer a very strong "personal
feeling" attached to them. It's almost as if they're just part of the landscape,
part of the "now". Part of the ground of being.
Precious vipassana experience! Best when going along with this insight:

Perhaps 'seeing' that the body without the mental-construct of a 'body' are really just that raw
"distint feeling/experience of feelings and sensations". So forget about the 'body'.
Quote:
If I had to be more precise I think I would say that the body is my vehicle, the one
that I am using at the time. One day it will fall into disrepair and I'll have to
abandon it at that time. That is going to be one hell of an experience!!!
Extrapolation were now is not!

Amadeus: Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject:
Hi passerby,
Thanks for the nice post!
Quote:
Quote:
If I had to be more precise I think I would say that the body is my vehicle, the one
that I am using at the time. One day it will fall into disrepair and I'll have to
abandon it at that time. That is going to be one hell of an experience!!!
Extrapolation were now is not!
You'll have to forgive me for this part, I just experienced the beautiful death of my precious
mother and I guess it's still on my mind.
However, now I can tell the truth about that experience. I have no idea what the hell
happened. I know what everyone thought happened, but I personally, am at a total loss to say
what happened. It's a complete mystery.
Yougarksooo: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:37 am Post subject:
Quote:
Is peace personal - is there such a thing as "my peace"? "your peace"?
Is suffering personal - is there such a thing as "my suffering"? "your suffering"?
There is a sense of a self here, but not a separate self. So I don't see this as "my life." Thus, I
don't see it as "my peace" or "my suffering."
It makes no sense to me anymore to section off a part of life, over here, and say this is mine.
It goes against what is obvious to me now, which is that life just is. One. Sure there are
different manifestations of it, but once consciousness woke up in this form, it can't be said
that anything is "mine."
Amadeus: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:14 am Post subject:
Quote:
once consciousness woke up in this form,
Nice way of putting it.
How about the universe wakes up to itself in this form?

Yougarksooo: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:
Quote:
That works for me. Whatever This is, which is experienced as awakeness or oneness can't be
known through my mind with concepts. So I could call it kitty litter and it would mean the
same as "universe" or "consciousness." It just is.
Amadeus: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
That works for me. Whatever This is, which is experienced as awakeness or
oneness can't be known through my mind with concepts. So I could call it kitty
litter and it would mean the same as "universe" or "consciousness." It just is.
Sounds good to me.
We're awash in a sea of kitty litter.

Yougarksooo: Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject:
Nice Ammy
CC, here is another way of looking at it for me. This sense of separateness is no longer here
(except for some old conditioning which still comes through-but met in a very different way
than before). So, at the same time as there is not "my peace" or "my suffering" in some ways
this sense of oneness makes me see that all suffering is mine. You are me. I am you. This is
why I started the thread "you are responsible for the war." How do I separate the war into his,
hers, its problem and divorce myself from life that way? And at the same time, I---the little
me--is responsible for the war when I attempt to separate myself from others, through any
number of means---debate, war, insensitivity, nonpresence etc.
Amadeus: Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:44 am Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Nice Ammy
CC, here is another way of looking at it for me. This sense of separateness is no
longer here (except for some old conditioning which still comes through-but met in
a very different way than before). So, at the same time as there is not "my peace"
or "my suffering" in some ways this sense of oneness makes me see that all
suffering is mine. You are me. I am you. This is why I started the thread "you are
responsible for the war." How do I separate the war into his, hers, its problem and
divorce myself from life that way? And at the same time, I---the little me--is
responsible for the war when I attempt to separate myself from others, through any
number of means---debate, war, insensitivity, nonpresence etc.
Let me suggest another possibility Scott,
You are saying that you are me and I am you and that oneness makes all suffering yours.
I would like to suggest you look at these statements and consider the possibility that identity
itself is just another concept. And what identity does, is it brings everything, all experiences,
back to a center, everything is attributed back to the center of the separate sense of self.
To fully comprehend what is being said is to be completely lost, to completely let go, to lose
one's center (that never really existed in the first place, it was just an illusion).
What I am saying is there is no such thing as "I am", that is just another pointer, what there
truly is, is "Isness". Just pure Isness which is what I am, what you are but completely without
a center.
This, of course, can't be comprehended, one can only surrender to It.

Yougarksooo: Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You are saying that you are me and I am you and that oneness makes all suffering
yours.
No, when I refer to making all suffering mine, I'm referring to that which is, the One, the
embodiment of the whole. Not "mine" in the sense of a separate little me. So life, or all that
is, is our body. There is an embodiment of everything once awakening happens. The
suffering is part of the One. There is no center. No separation.
I stood up from my bed one night and my jaw dropped. I kept saying, "oh my God, oh my
God." I realized that everything is One. I was the ceiling. I was the street out my window. I
was my dog. From that point on, there is the ongoing embodiment of that experience. The
realization of no separateness. So I cannot deny an aspect of what is. What is contains
suffering in other forms out there. This is part of the body of the One. You are right, there is
no separate self. But enlightenment can become a very self-centered, egoic trip, unless its
seen that all is One. I am the left hand. You are the right. If you get cut, I hurt. No center. But
the embodiment of the whole. Never denying a part of the whole. See this Ammy or else
enlightenment will just become Ammy's little egoic trip up there in Canada. He gets to feel
good with neat realizations, while denying that the one life is his body, and that the other is
him.
If you haven't seen this One, I mean the full seeing of it, you won't know what I'm talking
about.
Passerby: Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
...what identity does, is it brings everything, all experiences, back to a center,
everything is attributed back to the center of the separate sense of self.
To fully comprehend what is being said is to be completely lost, to completely let

go, to lose one's center (that never really existed in the first place, it was just an
illusion).
What I am saying is there is no such thing as "I am", that is just another pointer,
what there truly is, is "Isness". Just pure Isness which is what I am, what you are
but completely without a center.
Great insight between "Isness" and "I AM". Admire urwillingness to drop that holding.
Just for sharing:

When the center is dropped and impersonality experienced, the manifold of isness in all
manifestation must also be fully experienced. Everything interfuses and interpenetrates to
give their very best for a manifestation to take place. The entire universe is giving whatever it
has to make a moment of isness possible... Treasure all experiences. All is the One Reality.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject:

Quote:
The entire universe is giving whatever it has to make a moment of isness
possible... Treasure all experiences. All is the One Reality.
Passerby, its always a pleasure to read your posts. This resonates with what I see. Never deny
any aspect of all that is. Don't hide in form or formlessness.
I've had this experience lately of wanting to find someone who will reflect back to me what I
see. For what? Validation, egoic need? I've just been embracing that movement in me... It is
an aspect of the unfolding. To be treasured, as you say.
Passerby: Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
The entire universe is giving whatever it has to make a moment of isness
possible... Treasure all experiences. All is the One Reality.
Passerby, its always a pleasure to read your posts. This resonates with what I see.
Never deny any aspect of all that is. Don't hide in form or formlessness.
I've had this experience lately of wanting to find someone who will reflect back to
me what I see. For what? Validation, egoic need? I've just been embracing that
movement in me... It is an aspect of the unfolding. To be treasured, as you say.
My sentiments exactly. What you posted lately resonate deeply in me. I thoroughly enjoy
reading them. Thanks for the sharing.
"Forms don't arise within formlessness. There is just One Life. You are THAT." (Editor: this
is Yougarksooos forum signature.) Truly insightful! Good stuff!
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Passerby wrote:
When the center is dropped and impersonality experienced, the manifold of isness
in all manifestation must also be fully experienced.
Hi,
I had an experience similar to this a while back which lasted about a week or so. But
sometimes I wonder why I should continue to talk about these experiences, especially since
it's so difficult to describe them or share them with others.
I understand that there's a certain pattern to these experiences and that one experience can
lead to another. But all experiences, are, by nature, fleeting and also subject to interpretation
by us in order to express them or even make sense of them.
So, I guess my question is, is there anything to be gained by continuing to share experiences?
Does the sharing of experiences lead to a quicker transformation of consciousness or would

dropping everything and letting go of the spiritual "persona" lead to a deeper realization?
Yougarksooo: Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:11 am Post subject:
Speaking of experience, once I had this realization that all is One, literally seeing myself in
everything, there was a sense that I needed someone to reflect that back to me. I even had
thoughts afterwards like, "am I going crazy? What's going on?" This may or may not explain
this debate energy in me lately. I hadn't felt that in quite a while. But its resurfaced, like an
attempt to grasp the known when all I see is that I don't know and there is no way to escape
the not knowingness into a belief.
This is what I was trying to express to Passerby. Here is the story I've been watching in the
last couple of days. The "ego" trying to reconstitute itself, sort of. Here is this body/mind in
Indiana. When I spoke about presence or pure awareness, others were reflecting this back, so
its like my fellow "teachers" on here were saying, "yes, this is what I experienced." But when
I started talking about Oneness and seeing myself in everything, not much response came
back in the way of direct experience.
So, it was fear leading me to look for that reflection back. Certainly, it wasn't a "superior to"
it was a fear, couple with this need to grasp onto a knowing. Had I had a teacher right here
saying, just relax into the not knowing, the egoing might not have happened.
So I'm resting into that more now, realizing that there are pitfalls no matter what the shift is.
I'm so grateful for this forum and the way many stick to direct experience. This is what I was
sharing to Summer yesterday when she was just being honest about her experience. In this
way, there is not a tendency here to grasp onto untrue beliefs. No cult-like stuff. No, no, no. I
want the truth. Not a comfortable blanket.
I do not think in all cases we are talking about fleeting experiences, to stay on topic. Yes, the
experience itself is fleeting. However, these experiences sometimes clear away tons of false
stuff. What's left is this void, at which point surrender can happen, or there can be a
reconstituting of self. Awareness is key, as always, as far as I can tell. Whatever this self is
that tries to reconstitute, it is seen as even more of an illusion now, and even more painful in
its untruth. The word I've been using for this is embodiment. I can either grasp onto an
identity or false knowing through debate (separateness), or I can embody this sense of
oneness.
Passerby: Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject:
[quote="Amadeus"]
Quote:
I had an experience similar to this a while back which lasted about a week or so.
But sometimes I wonder why I should continue to talk about these experiences,
especially since it's so difficult to describe them or share them with others.
So, I guess my question is, is there anything to be gained by continuing to share

experiences?
Yes it is very difficult to express and prone to misunderstanding; but also don't miss the joy
when insight blossoms from shared experiences. I almost always gain something from the
posts in this forum.
Quote:
Does the sharing of experiences lead to a quicker transformation of consciousness

or would dropping everything and letting go of the spiritual "persona" lead to a
deeper realization?
My experience is realisation comes from unreserved sharing, open reception and holding
nothing. It is part of the flow.
Passerby: Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Yes, I've heard it expressed that in the unknowing, there is a sense of knowing that
comes. The notion that truth is self-confirming (and "arriving" at that by the
dropping away of all that is false). David Carse says of this truth, "Does exist.
Can't be expressed." I express it as "one." But you are touching on this here.
The knowing is not on a conceptual level really, its a fluid, ever-changing, honest
looking at what is here, all of it.
There has been this fear or lack of control driving this re-constituting of conceptual
knowledge (conclusion energy, debate energy, self), but once that is let go again,
there is that resting (honest looking). Yes, good catch, the looking must always be
honest. And at the same time, there is a knowing, but not the warm blanket, belief
type. This knowing is this love of what is, this honest looking, which even sees the
fear as telling the truth. It's not that I know this or that. But this pure love is felt
again. A love of what is. Isn't this why we call it "resting?" This love of what is,
this knowing, is what allows the resting to occur. That little self trying to re-
constitute, blocks that. But this love is a love of what is true. It wins everytime if
there is no resistance. "Does exist. Can't be expressed."
Wow, re-reading that, it really shows how words fail. knowing, notknowing,
looking, resting etc, love is truth. It's all very funny.
Enjoying the dialogue, as always. Or am I just feeling comforted in the warm egoic
validation of someone reflecting what I see back to me?
Will continue looking...
Quote:
but there seems to be only one truth, and the nature of that truth seems to
be mirror ... that whatever I see, is me, as long as there is a "me"
Yes, I was referring to this as the conceptual overlay in "People Only Talk About
Themselves."
Agree!
Just for sharing:
Watching or knowing is more like a form of sensing Sensing with our entire whole.
Even after all the beautiful experiences, the habitual tendency to overlay constructs on top
of what is continues. The mind continues to define and understand symbolically. There is
nothing really wrong doing this when it is seen through, just that it is overdone -- lopsided
. There is a form of training known as insight meditation in Buddhism that trains one to sense
directly in bare attention. Diligent practice and spending some quality minutes will help
loosen this habitual tendency. For example when the feet touches the floor, the mind does
not just sweep through hardness but can feel the hardness, that is, awareness as that
solidness, a transparent solidness. The intensity of sensing can create the kind of
knowing that is beyond the knowing of the dream state (free from the senses) -- like a
blind person sees . Not only will this help to loosen the tendency to know through
defining, it will open up new dimension of our luminous, impersonal and non-dual pristine
nature. My 2 cents.
People Only Talk About Themselves
Forum Topic:
Quote:
see, that was a pointer ... useless
Welcome to the trap. But as long as there is a seeing of the trap...no prob.
It's when I believe there is a need to escape the trap....ouch. Embrace the trap instead. It's part
of the One. This whole excruciating, beautiful thing called life is IT. I am that. You are that.
What did you say once, I don't want the cheese, I just want out of the trap? This sort of
"points" to this thing that can't be avoided. This oneness. Words, forms, formlessness cannot
be avoided. Manifestations of the One. If there is a hiding in formlessness, just as if there is a
hiding in form, there is a denial of what is, all that is. Right? This is what I'm seeing.
The vomit is me. The pretty flower is me. This silence is me. Not the little me, but
rather......That Which Is. Life. To embody that fully. Nothing denied. Like waking up out of
the sense of a separate self and then realizing even that is not a problem. Never was. Not in
me. Not in you. It just is.
Passerby: Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
see, that was a pointer ... useless
Welcome to the trap. ..This sort of "points" to this thing that can't be avoided. This
oneness. Words, forms, formlessness cannot be avoided. Manifestations of the
One. If there is a hiding in formlessness, just as if there is a hiding in form, there is
a denial of what is, all that is...
.
.
The vomit is me. The pretty flower is me. This silence is me. ..That Which Is. Life.
To embody that fully. Nothing denied. Like waking up out of the sense of a
separate self and then realizing even that is not a problem. Never was. Not in me.
Not in you. It just is.
Good stuff and truly insightful!
A preference of formless over forms turns out to be a denial of what is. Another 'distancing'
packaged to appear closer to the One Reality. All is the One reality, non is purer than the
other.
Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
but "beingness" and "oneness" and "joyful blissness" hardly look like pointers to a
hammer and me ... but neither does moving away from the hammer to pick
something "easier" ...
Right, well said. The futility of ever believing that words can truly explain this. They help.
David Carse says, "imagine people living in a two dimensional world. Then, a three
dimensional being comes along and tries to explain to the people what three dimensional life
is like." It has to be experienced.
Quote:
Krishnamurti and others would say "it doesnt come invited" ... you are saying there
comes this opportunity ... how? from where? what do I need to do to get to this
opportunity? are you saying there is something other than the looking, for pre-
opportunity? it doesnt make sense that there would be - so again, JK would stay
away from pointing to opportunity entirely ... he would inquire to make space - I
guess others like to point to opportunity - but that creates grasping after pre-
opportunity - so why even say it? why even talk about it ... is there nothing but
these pointers and promises? ...
see what Im saying?
Yes I see. And to the extent that it appears that I believe a person can do anything to bring
about the opportunity, I could never say that. Tolle comes very close to living up to the
PON's subtitle "A Guide To Spiritual Enlightenment." A lot of people who have read his
book are realizing the pure beingness within. This is what I mean by formlessness. Some
seem to get stuck in this pure awareness bit. But with oneness, there is a corresponding seeing
that all is One. This uninvited other deepening experience of realizing that all is One is where
I think most teachers jump off. They aren't willing, honestly, to say they know how that
happens. Even Tolle seems to back off on that. Yet most of them speak of having experienced
that, and then teach from the resulting embodiment of that.
But yes, on some level, it becomes mushy to try to convey this marriage of form and
formlessness with only concepts and words (forms). This is the trap. Maharshi tried to convey
the teaching through silence only, right?
Life (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Life
Quote:
Life
Nothing ever happened before right now.

This moment is entirely new a clean slate.
This moment is totally free of pre-existing content.

It is spacious, clear, and empty.
So the concerns you have now, to what do they refer?
Everything about right now never happened before.

This moment doesnt know anything about the past.
This moment knows no yesterday of you.
It has no past hurts, it has no grudges, no scores to settle.
This sight has never been seen before.

This sound has never been heard before.
This thought has never been thought before.
This is life.
Not burdened by anything at all.
Pure Being, spontaneously arising right now, free and clear.
No person, no events, no suffering.
Notice it now. Theres nothing more to seek.
Its just this, and its already your life.
Annette Nibley
Passerby: Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Life
Wonderful quotes!
Reminds me of dharma seals -- impermanence.
Explains how the brief of a moment creates the sense of permanence and timelessness
experientially -- by being completely new, entire and gone instantaneously! Open
reception, total let go!
Amadeus: Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Life
Passerby wrote:
Wonderful quotes!
Explains how the brief of a moment creates the sense of permanence and
timelessness experientially -- by being completely new, entire and gone
instantaneously! Open reception, total let go!
((((passerby))))
Passerby: Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Life
Amadeus wrote:
Passerby wrote:
Wonderful quotes!
Explains how the brief of a moment creates the sense of permanence

and timelessness experientially -- by being completely new, entire and
gone instantaneously! Open reception, total let go!
((((passerby))))
Have you ever....? (Source: http://now-for-

Forum Topic:
Amadeus: Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: Have you ever....?
Have you ever had the experience of the personality falling away and all that remains is a
field of awareness?
It happened again today.
It makes me realize that the only salient fact is "I am". Nothing else is that important.
It also makes me remember this:
In the full Satguru, all AMness has disappeared except that miniscule energy necessary for
the bodymind to remain in appearance. Essentially, when they are on their own, they are like
the perfectly calm pond in absolute peace. No thoughts, as we would recognize them.
When somebody appears before them, a ripple is created on the pond to give them
sufficient appearance of personality to interact. Once the interaction is completed, they
return to silence. We are not capable of understanding what that really means, or feels like.
The I of the of the I AM in the Jnani now disappears as well. Remember that the I was
the perceiver of the AM. In the Satguru, there is no concept of a perceiver in the first stages
of Satguru. There is only perceiving happening. At full Satguru even the perceiving
ceases. Now there is only IS. This is beyond conceptualization with the mind.
Further, as their natural personality disappears, the personality of those around them
seems to disappear. They perceive less and less distinctions of individual personalities.
Eventually, they literally disappear as a personality to others, and the other
personalities effectively disappear to them.
All goals, desires, and concepts have fallen away. Dis-passion (impartiality) deepens
Passerby: Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Have you ever....?
Amadeus wrote:
Have you ever had the experience of the personality falling away and all that
remains is a field of awareness?
It happened again today.
It makes me realize that the only salient fact is "I am". Nothing else is that
important.
It also makes me remember this:
In the full Satguru, all AMness has disappeared except that miniscule energy
necessary for the bodymind to remain in appearance. Essentially, when they are on
their own, they are like the perfectly calm pond in absolute peace. No
thoughts, as we would recognize them. When somebody appears before them,
a ripple is created on the pond to give them sufficient appearance of
personality to interact. Once the interaction is completed, they return to
silence. We are not capable of understanding what that really means, or feels like.
The I of the of the I AM in the Jnani now disappears as well. Remember that
the I was the perceiver of the AM. In the Satguru, there is no concept of a
perceiver in the first stages of Satguru. There is only perceiving happening. At
full Satguru even the perceiving ceases. Now there is only IS. This is beyond
conceptualization with the mind.
Further, as their natural personality disappears, the personality of those
around them seems to disappear. They perceive less and less distinctions of
individual personalities. Eventually, they literally disappear as a personality
to others, and the other personalities effectively disappear to them.
All goals, desires, and concepts have fallen away. Dis-passion (impartiality)
deepens
Wonderful experience! With personality there is always perceiver and percieving, without it,
only the obvious manifestation, nothing on top or behind manifestion! Rest naked, don't ask
or answer anything.
Passerby: Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Have you ever....?
Amadeus wrote:
All goals, desires, and concepts have fallen away. Dis-passion (impartiality)
deepens
So is there a PasserBy talking to u?

In isness yes, in thinking no. Isness is full of trust and 'thinking' is full of suspicions. In
complete surrendering, there is full trust. Impersonality does not alienate.
Quote:
Rest naked?
That sounds wonderfully kinky, passerby.
No wonder it is always in love.

Amadeus: Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Have you ever....?
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
All goals, desires, and concepts have fallen away. Dis-passion
(impartiality) deepens
So is there a PasserBy talking to u?

In isness yes, in thinking no. Isness is full of trust and 'thinking' is full of
suspicions. In complete surrendering, there is full trust. Impersonality does not
alienate.
Yes, I know what you mean, Isness is pure simplicity. With absolutely no interpretation, just
"what is". Perhaps a better way to say it would be perhaps, not that Isness is full of trust, but
rather that it is prior to trust and doubt.
Passerby: Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Have you ever....?
Amadeus wrote:
Yes, I know what you mean, Isness is pure simplicity. With absolutely no
interpretation, just "what is". Perhaps a better way to say it would be perhaps, not
that Isness is full of trust, but rather that it is prior to trust and doubt.
Yes what u said is more accurate.
First there is personality,

then there is impersonality,
is there a way to take up roles and personality yet remain impersonal, like re-dirtying hands
in a world of samsara?
and
Is there deep confusion when we engaged in "I, no I, you, no you..." type of analysis but
when we re-enter isness everything seems fine? If yes, then care to share why...if not, then
nvm...
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Have you ever....?
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
Yes, I know what you mean, Isness is pure simplicity. With absolutely no
interpretation, just "what is". Perhaps a better way to say it would be
perhaps, not that Isness is full of trust, but rather that it is prior to trust
and doubt.
Yes what u said is more accurate.
First there is personality,

then there is impersonality,
is there a way to take up roles and personality yet remain impersonal, like re-
dirtying hands in a world of samsara?
Yes there is passerby, by fully loving and accepting and opening up to the manifesting ego
and all relationships that arise within.
The impersonality is in the acceptance or the space created which allows a certain amount of
detachment.
Thank you for the question.
and
Quote:
Is there deep confusion when we engaged in "I, no I, you, no you..." type of
analysis but when we re-enter isness everything seems fine? If yes, then care to
share why...if not, then nvm...
The ego is constantly trying to reinvent itself, whenever any deep insight happens, the ego
tries to claim for it's own, tries to understand what is happening and tries to reformulate it's
"world view" with the new insight processed along with it. This whole process can be seen
for what it is and allowed to happen, there needs to be a certain space or detachment from
what is arising for this to happen. It's all about remaining present and being aware of what is
arising without completely identifying with it. Simply allowing it to happen. Beyond and
deeply within all of this manifestation is the isness Itself which never has a problem with
anything that is arising.
What do you think passerby?
Am I seeing things correctly?

Amadeus: Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Is there deep confusion when we engaged in "I, no I, you, no you..." type of
analysis but when we re-enter isness everything seems fine? If yes, then care to
share why...if not, then nvm...
I'm not happy with my previous answer, so I'll try again.
The mind is constantly dealing in concepts and beliefs and to me, that feels like a house of
mirrors. There is no clarity there in thought, it's all about separation, about limitations. So
trying to understand the "no me" through the "me" (thought) leads to confusion which is ok
since eventually you understand that you can never get this. So you relax and stop trying and
then something else can happen, clarity can arise in which it is seen that nothing needs to be
"had" since everything is ok as it is right now. Which, to me, is another way of saying you
reenter isness.
Why everything is fine in isness?
Isness is a place where there is no problem, everything is as it is. Very simple, very
immediate. Nothing at all to think about. It's beyond experience which can come and go.
Passerby: Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
Is there deep confusion when we engaged in "I, no I, you, no you..." type
of analysis but when we re-enter isness everything seems fine? If yes,
then care to share why...if not, then nvm...
I'm not happy with my previous answer, so I'll try again.
The mind is constantly dealing in concepts and beliefs and to me, that feels like a
house of mirrors. There is no clarity there in thought, it's all about separation,
about limitations. So trying to understand the "no me" through the "me" (thought)
leads to confusion which is ok since eventually you understand that you can never
get this.
I agree with what you said in both your posts. Just to add that the 'self' has also this amazing
power to 'blind' itself.
Quote:
Why everything is fine in isness?
Isness is a place where there is no problem, everything is as it is. Very simple, very
immediate. Nothing at all to think about.
Yes. Too short to have time and too direct to have thoughts. The simplicity, immediacy and
spontaneity create the effortlessness sensation. But think you missed the 'very very real'
aspect of isness and what happens when this 'very very real' is impersonal. It is also the
manifold of this 'very real' that is experienced as 'things'. Not as a form of perception but as
direct experiential reality. I think insight into the eagerness of the ego to touch this very 'real'
of itself through thought construct and the whole lot of problems that follows it is extremely
important too.
Quote:
It's beyond experience which can come and go.
There is no beyond but there is this sensation of changelessness and permanence because
there is no-gap between isness and the transients. Isness is the coming and going. There is
change, no changing thing.
Forum Topic: Thusness is just so.

Thusness: 17 August 2007 06:25 AM
Good stuff! Got this from another forum.
http://buddhaboard.com/
An Eternal Now: 17 August 2007 10:10 AM
Nice site
Very nice website

Non-duality must be accompanied with the practice of impermanence like painting on the
surface of a pond...vividly clear and intantly gone.
Have I learned something? (Source:
Forum Topic:
http://now-for-
Amadeus: Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Have I learned something?
I kinda feel now that when someone posts that I like to enter the reality of the poster, to feel
what they feel, see what they see, smell what they smell.... I guess what I'm saying is I am the
other poster and when I commune with them that way, then whatever answer arises is totally
spontaneous.
The old way I used to do it, is I had my own point of view, beliefs, structure and would
compare my experience to theirs and see what would come of that and post about it.
Passerby: Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Have I learned something?
Amadeus wrote:
I kinda feel now that when someone posts that I like to enter the reality of the
poster, to feel what they feel, see what they see, smell what they smell.... I guess
what I'm saying is I am the other poster and when I commune with them that way,
then whatever answer arises is totally spontaneous.
The old way I used to do it, is I had my own point of view, beliefs, structure and
would compare my experience to theirs and see what would come of that and post
about it.
Only to poster, human or to anything? To directly 'sense' and touch the "realness" of anything
form or formless, visible or invisible? To 'see' smell and 'touch' sound. The intensity of
embodiment.
Amadeus: Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Have I learned something?
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
I kinda feel now that when someone posts that I like to enter the reality of
the poster, to feel what they feel, see what they see, smell what they
smell.... I guess what I'm saying is I am the other poster and when I
commune with them that way, then whatever answer arises is totally
spontaneous.
The old way I used to do it, is I had my own point of view, beliefs,
structure and would compare my experience to theirs and see what would
come of that and post about it.
Only to poster, human or to anything? To directly 'sense' and touch the "realness"
of anything form or formless, visible or invisible? To 'see' smell and 'touch' sound.
The intensity of embodiment.
Wow!
That's amazing passerby,
This openness can be applied to everything. I never thought of that till you mentioned it, but
it makes complete sense to me.
Today, when I was walking I was actually afraid to run into someone I may know. I felt so
open, so vulnerable. I felt like my heart, my being was wide open. It felt like I was pure love.
And I felt the ego react with fear to this, wanting to protect itself, to put on a "face" so that
others wouldn't see how vulnerable I was.
Passerby: Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Have I learned something?
Amadeus wrote:
Today, when I was walking I was actually afraid to run into someone I may know.
I felt so open, so vulnerable. I felt like my heart, my being was wide open. It felt
like I was pure love. And I felt the ego react with fear to this, wanting to protect
itself, to put on a "face" so that others wouldn't see how vulnerable I was.
Sometimes you have to be more daringinstead of surrendering, u see God, touch God and
eat God. When you give up I AM or the sense of self, God reciprocates and is entirely at
your total disposal.
How long does it take until this moment

Forum Topic:
becomes another one? (Source: http://now-for-

David: Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject:
I think there's a really interesting issue here.
The Now is the moment suspended between the past and future. We can cut the physical
duration of the Now down smaller and smaller. Essentially, the Now is infinitesimally small.
An analogy is to a point of a line, which is infinitely small.
But, if the Now is infinitely small, that means that the number of moments of the Now is
infinite. Which means that the Now is infinite, which is what Tolle says.
I'm not playing with words here. And since we dwell in the Now, this means that our
existence is infinite.
David
Passerby: Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:23 am Post subject:
David wrote:
I think there's a really interesting issue here.
The Now is the moment suspended between the past and future. We can cut the
physical duration of the Now down smaller and smaller. Essentially, the Now is
infinitesimally small. An analogy is to a point of a line, which is infinitely small.
But, if the Now is infinitely small, that means that the number of moments of the
Now is infinite. Which means that the Now is infinite, which is what Tolle says.
I'm not playing with words here. And since we dwell in the Now, this means that
our existence is infinite.
David
And the famous Zeno paradox. Isn't this also means that before one moment can become the
next moment, it will take infinitely long since each smaller slice of the moment takes time no
matter how small it is. The sum of an infinite limited quantity of time slice between 2
moments will be infinitely long, so the next moment can never take place!
Sounds logical but we now know its logical inadequacy in the mathematics of infinity. Yet it
puzzled great thinkers even of Descartes's calibre.
Forum Topic: Third Eye Meditation

AEN ask me to add something... so I will try
Just my expereince...
Meditation is really a process of self-discovery. Eventually, we will discovery that our

experience is entirely made up of sensations, perceptions and feelings. That's it.
In fact, 'self' is the last or end result of a series of process in the formation of consciousness.
This is contrary to the conventional assumed way of understanding life and things. We
THINK that we(self) is experiencing the world... The fact is, the self is the 'being
experienced' after a series of entirely impersonal process.
It is not the self that grasps or clings. 'Self' itself is grasping and clinging. .. and therefore is
not a thing at all.
At a certain stage of progress, there is a sense of futilty in trying to 'control', grasp events.
Conventional happiness comes in the fulfilling of objective. However, the joy/bliss of 'no-
self' is a different type of expereince from conventional happiness... Note: I am not implying
that conventional happiness is something that needs to be avioded...no. It is just that the
expereince is different. Joy of no-self comes from the dropping away of grasping which is
self. This is easier said that done, I can atest to the difficulty in very trying situations... there
is still a whole lot of grasping at very difficult situations and mental reasoning kicks in to
justified the worrying and grasping... ( i am not there yet)
regards
quote:

Meditation is really a process of self-discovery. Eventually, we will discovery that our
experience is entirely made up of sensations, perceptions and feelings. That's it.
Indeed! The 5 aggregates are the very buddha nature. Yet it requires the experience of non-
duality to have insight to this plain truth. It is too easy to understand and not pleasing to the a
complex mind so we tend to read past what the Buddha said.
quote:
In fact, 'self' is the last or end result of a series of process in the formation of consciousness.
This is contrary to the conventional assumed way of understanding life and things. We
THINK that we(self) is experiencing the world... The fact is, the self is the 'being
experienced' after a series of entirely impersonal process.
I understand the essence of it. Just to add a little. After a series of entirely impersonal
process, isness is experienced. Only when the process is made 'personal', 'Self' is experienced
and perhaps after the formation of perception. That is after the assigning of a label and
identification done.
quote:
It is not the self that grasps or clings. 'Self' itself is grasping and clinging. .. and therefore is
not a thing at all.
At a certain stage of progress, there is a sense of futilty in trying to 'control', grasp events.
Conventional happiness comes in the fulfilling of objective. However, the joy/bliss of 'no-
self' is a different type of expereince from conventional happiness... Note: I am not implying
that conventional happiness is something that needs to be avioded...no. It is just that the
expereince is different. Joy of no-self comes from the dropping away of grasping which is
self.
Fully agree.
quote:
This is easier said that done, I can atest to the difficulty in very trying situations... there is still
a whole lot of grasping at very difficult situations and mental reasoning kicks in to justified
the worrying and grasping
Very true and spending quality hours in 'naked awareness' in meditation each day will help.
Until it replaces mental reasoning as the one antedote for all worries and confusions.
Hi Thusness,
Thanks for the sharing
regards
Forum Topic: Enlightenment

JonLS: 23 August 2007 03:35 AM
quote:
Realise enlightenment is impossible. If you could be unenlightened one moment, and

enlightened the next, then enlightenment would be bound by time, would be given substance
by its opposite, would be dual, would be some thing to be attained. You do not need to be
something more. Forget the need and hope. Awake is what you are, not what you become.
Be willing to notice. Look at the stars, the wind, the romp of birds through the sky. Be willing
to be free. Forget the sutras, the wise sayings, the path, the seriousness, the pain, the wars, the
relationships, the imagined problems. Forget your objections. Hush for a moment; gently,
with arms wide and open, notice the absence of anything but Life.
Be. Realize that only the ego wants to awaken. And be done with it.
quote:
You are not ready to accept the fact that you have to give up. A complete and total
surrender. It is a state of hopelessness which says that there is no way out. Any
movement in any direction, on any dimension, at any level, is taking you away from
Yourself
U.G. Krishnmurti
quote:
For me the first realisation of enlightenment, or of the nature of who I really am, is not
something that can be expressed. What happened cannot even be called an experience,
because the separate experiencer needed to be absent for it to emerge.
However, what accompanied that happening was a realisation of such simple magnitude and
revolutionary content that it left me awestruck and quite alone.
One of the things I came to see is that enlightenment only becomes available when it has
been accepted that it cannot be achieved.
Doctrines, processes and progressive paths which seek enlightenment only exacerbate the
problem they address by reinforcing the idea that the self can find something that it presumes
it has lost. It is that very effort, that investment in self-identity that continuously recreates the
illusion of separation from oneness. This is the veil that we believe exists. It is the dream of
individuality.
...
Life is not a task. There is absolutely nothing to attain except the realisation that there is
absolutely nothing to attain.
No amount of effort will ever persuade oneness to appear. All that is needed is a leap in
perception, a different seeing, already inherent but unrecognised.
Tony Parsons, The Open Secret, pp4-5
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Essentially the experience of enlightenment brings with it the sudden comprehension that
there is no-one and nothing to be enlightened. Enlightenment simply is. ... All and everything
is oneness, and all that we do is get in its way by trying to find it.
More Tony,
quote:
Aliveness, there' s only ever aliveness. No matter where you go or what you do, you can't
achieve aliveness, you can't learn to see aliveness. There is just aliveness. You don't need
anybody to tell you that, you don't ever need to come to another meeting to find out all there
is is aliveness. It already is that.
Question: Why do we find it so difficult to accept?
Because we're always looking for something, always looking for something else, something
in time.
Because we think we are individuals living in something or other, we're always looking for
something else.
We have a picture of what we're looking for, which isn't "this" . (pointing to right here, right
now)
So hardly ever is there just the seeing of " this". There's always a living in anticipation of
something to come.
What we don't realize is "this" is what we're looking for.
And it's constantly... here!
It is constantly what is, rather what could be.
-----------------------------------------------------------
But the idea of "you" is being reinforced all the time. The emphasis is that there is someone
there; everything in the world goes on emphasizing that there is someone there. The pretence
of "me" goes on being reinforced even in the search for enlightenment, because what a so-
called master will say to you is, "I have become enlightened - I am an enlightened person and
can become an enlightened person". You - this pretend "you"! It's a total utter fallacy because
awakening is the realisation that there is no one - it's as simple as that. It's totally and utterly
simple, and also very difficult.
Awakening is the realisation that all that's been happening - the whole idea of there being a
"me" - is a pretence. You're actually pretending to sit there and look at me. You 're pretending
that you're sitting there looking at me and trying to get something.
Thanks for sharing!
If one gives up the untrue,

turns towards the real and gives up concepts,
abides in brilliance without self or other,
even ordinary people and aryas will be equivalent.
When one abides in unchanging stability,
from then on there is no need to follow what is taught in texts.
--1st Patriarch of Chinese Zen, Bodhidharma, The Treatise on the Two Entrances and Four
Practices
However my advise is before that, read sutras, they contain good pointers And continue to
read after that
Hi AEN,
quote:
When one abides in unchanging stability,

from then on there is no need to follow what is taught in texts.
How does one abide in unchanging stability?
surrender. It is a state of hopelessness which says that there is no way out. Any
Yourself
Let go of the search, let go of the sutras.
Just "be".
quote:
But the idea of "you" is being reinforced all the time. The emphasis is that there is someone
there; everything in the world goes on emphasizing that there is someone there. The pretence
of "me" goes on being reinforced even in the search for enlightenment...
,
quote:

How does one abide in unchanging stability?
As what Thusness said in one of the very early posts -- lame question on meditation
quote:
Hi Long Chen,
Yes it is possible. But as much as I would not like to say, there is no what, where, when,
why and how. Sounds senseless but it is true. These are what Naturalness is not.
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because
to the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to
continue penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own DEATH.
The death of the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and analytical
mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing. Here karmic tendency arises and
ceases as it is, no effort to struggle is made.
This is the time effortless knowing arise. A complete clarity of ISness manisfesting as pure
Presence.
Seek deep into the depth of our own self, there is always this Will, Effort..etc. This
Unwillingless to let go, to be.
Simply put, it is this that separates.
Lastly try not to find a sit in the body. The true nature fills all space. Creating a boundary for
What that is neither within nor without will eventually prove futile. Presence finds itself in
Otherness. The body has created the illusion of 'inward' and divides. We have engaged
ourselves in too much analysis and lost our intuitiveness and directness. Since u have
experienced the pure Presence, sense the 'I' that holds and let go immeidately.
Presense always IS.
It is what is known as 'wu wei' (non-action)

quote:

surrender. It is a state of hopelessness which says that there is no way out. [b]Any
Yourself
Let go of the search, let go of the sutras.
Just "be". [/b]
Yes. And indeed sutras are just pointers... Though if you point the moon to the cat, it will
probably come and sniff your fingers instead
quote:
Realise enlightenment is impossible. If you could be unenlightened one moment, and

enlightened the next, then enlightenment would be bound by time, would be given substance
by its opposite, would be dual, would be some thing to be attained. You do not need to be
something more.
Stories that creates more propensities unknowningly by trying to statisfy dualistic mind.
quote:
Be willing to notice. Look at
Attempting impossibility.
quote:
the stars, the wind, the romp of birds through the sky.
This is sutra.
quote:
Be willing to be free. Forget the sutras, the wise sayings, the path, the seriousness, the pain,
the wars, the relationships, the imagined problems. Forget your objections. Hush for a
moment; gently, with arms wide and open, notice the absence of anything but Life.
Fallen into experience and attempting impossibility.
quote:
Be. Realize that only the ego wants to awaken. And be done with it.
Always is, no be. Ego is the wanting.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me the first realisation of enlightenment, or of the nature of who I really am, is not
something that can be expressed. What happened cannot even be called an experience,
because the separate experiencer needed to be absent for it to emerge.
However, what accompanied that happening was a realisation of such simple magnitude and
revolutionary content that it left me awestruck and quite alone.
One of the things I came to see is that enlightenment only becomes available when it has
been accepted that it cannot be achieved.
Doctrines, processes and progressive paths which seek enlightenment only exacerbate the
problem they address by reinforcing the idea that the self can find something that it presumes
it has lost. It is that very effort, that investment in self-identity that continuously recreates the
illusion of separation from oneness. This is the veil that we believe exists. It is the dream of
individuality.
...
Life is not a task. There is absolutely nothing to attain except the realisation that there is
absolutely nothing to attain.
No amount of effort will ever persuade oneness to appear. All that is needed is a leap in
perception, a different seeing, already inherent but unrecognised.
Tony Parsons, The Open Secret, pp4-5
Beautifully expressed.
quote:
Aliveness, there' s only ever aliveness. No matter where you go or what you do, you can't
achieve aliveness, you can't learn to see aliveness. There is just aliveness. You don't need
anybody to tell you that, you don't ever need to come to another meeting to find out all there
is is aliveness...
Tony Parsons, The Open Secret

Beautiful and thanks for sharing!
Care to share ur experience of the shift from "I AM" to "impersonal mere happening"...
quote:

Care to share ur experience of the shift from "I AM" to "impersonal mere
happening"...
Before, there was a person who was aware that he existed. This fact was the most important
fact, he thought.
But then this person became less and less, and now all that's left, much of time, is "simply
this", whatever is arising.
The person still arises from time to time, but he suffers from a great deal of confusion when
he does, he doesn't know whether he's coming or going. But that doesn't really matter
anymore because he doesn't take himself all that seriously anymore.
What arises most often is "Isness".
But there is no need to stay there, life is much too dynamic.

quote:
Before, there was a person who was aware that he existed. This fact was the most important
fact, he thought.
But then this person became less and less, and now all that's left, much of time, is "simply
this", whatever is arising.
The person still arises from time to time, but he suffers from a great deal of confusion when
he does, he doesn't know whether he's coming or going. But that doesn't really matter
anymore because he doesn't take himself all that seriously anymore.
Agree. It doesnt really matter because symbolic meaning is realized as the cause of
confusion. The need to explain subsides and gave way to an impersonal mirror bright
sensation. The need to explain is only relevant conventionally but not ultimately. Although
the exact cause of confusion is not clearly discerned, the root cause of confusion is intuitively
understood by resting in naked awareness.
quote:
What arises most often is "Isness".
But there is no need to stay there, life is much too dynamic.
This is because the nature of isness is impermanence. Even the experience of this
impersonal mirror bright clarity cannot dissolve the illusion of permanence. Isness does not
remain and the inability to cope with the mere speed of this instantly gone will create the
sense of self. It is reinforced by the habitual tendency to recall and reconfirm...when
isness is clearly seen as the arising and ceasing itself, sense of self ceases.
Hi Thusness,
quote:
Agree. It doesnt really matter because symbolic meaning is realized as the cause of
confusion.
Always there was a need to know. But now, knowing is seen for what it is, just a need to
know. It's in the nature of the separate sense of self to know things, that's how it "holds" itself
together conceptually.
quote:
The need to explain subsides and gave way to an impersonal mirror bright sensation.
Impersonal mirror bright sensation can also be called an "inner knowing" or "peace" itself.
You use different words than I do, but I recognize what you are saying.
quote:
Although the exact cause of confusion is not clearly discerned, the root cause of confusion is
intuitively understood by resting in naked awareness.
It seems to me that the root cause of confusion is the mind's tendency to grasp, to know. And
when that is seen through, then confusion seems to arise. But not all the time, only at times
when the separate sense of self reasserts itself.
quote:
the root cause of confusion is intuitively understood by resting in naked awareness.

Agreed!
quote:
This is because the nature of isness is impermanence. Even the experience of this impersonal
mirror bright clarity cannot dissolve the illusion of permanence. Isness does not remain and
the inability to cope with the mere speed of this instantly gone will create the sense of self.
It is reinforced by the habitual tendency to recall and reconfirm...when isness is clearly
seen as the arising and ceasing itself, sense of self ceases.
Thank you for this, it sounds good to me. These days, there is a "seeing" of deep layers of
conditioning, or "bonds" as I think you call them. Feelings and thoughts that had simply been
accepted as a part of life are now seen for what they are, simply thoughts and feelings that
have escaped scrutiny before because of the deep unconscious identification with them.
quote:

Always there was a need to know. But now, knowing is seen for what it is, just a need to
know. It's in the nature of the separate sense of self to know things, that's how it "holds" itself
together conceptually.
Yes. There is a need to know because there are conditions for this type of conventional
knowing to arise but it limitations are seen through. It is not the right tool for experiencing
our pristine nature but it is the right tool for other purposes. A wrong fit creates the
confusion.
quote:
Impersonal mirror bright sensation can also be called an "inner knowing" or "peace" itself.
You use different words than I do, but I recognize what you are saying.
It seems to me that the root cause of confusion is the mind's tendency to grasp, to know. And
when that is seen through, then confusion seems to arise. But not all the time, only at times
when the separate sense of self reasserts itself.
I would say suffering comes with grasping whereas confusion comes when we dwell into
symbolic meaning. In isness, there is no overlay and therefore confusion does not arise.
Inner knowing is a wide open whole body/mind sensing void of the sense of self. More of
an immediate and direct perception.
For example with the stabilizing of non-dual experience, when someone said enlightenment
has no attainment, there is an instant knowing of what it meant. A spontaneous and
immediate knowing as if it is a plain fact of reality that is experienced and lived in every
moment. That is the feeling. That is the heart to heart communication. "Making sense" comes
later as a convenient way to explain in conventional terms by fitting into the framework of
our thinking mechanism. This may not be a good example though.
quote:
These days, there is a "seeing" of deep layers of conditioning, or "bonds" as I think you call
them. Feelings and thoughts that had simply been accepted as a part of life are now seen for
what they are, simply thoughts and feelings that have escaped scrutiny before because of the
deep unconscious identification with them.
Yes. Buddhism spoke of the impact of creating karma. Just for the illustration of the impact
and not to dwell and fall into the discussion of what is good and bad, right or wrong. There is
a thread about smells by Marcteng and this is what he wrote
(http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=276034):
quote:
When I smell something unpleasant, like garbage and bad air, I feel very agitated and angry.
Is there a way where you can practise when you smell something unpleasant, wont have these
kind of thoughts?
I have a neighbour who burn incense everyday without fail, once in morning and once at
night and filled the whole corridor with the incense, but I find the incense really smelly and
unpleasant and I felt pissed and angry whenever I smelled by the incense smell
This is the impact of conditioning. Once formed, it becomes a whole new experiential reality
and is difficult to rid off.
JonLS: 26 August 2007 03:26 PM

quote:
This is the impact of conditioning. Once formed, it becomes a whole new experiential reality
and is difficult to rid off.
It is difficult as long as it is clung to. If you would rather react to the smell than see what
mechanism is at work then that is what you will get. If there is an openness, a desire to let go
or a desire for the truth of our being then this allows the space, the stillness, for truth to
emerge.
This openness or space that is created is beginning of the end of the separate sense of self.
But it costs us everything we know.
quote:

But it costs us everything we know.
Why cry? Means everything is at disposal! Mind, body, space, isness....

quote:
Why cry? Means everything is at disposal! Mind, body, space, isness....
Because , at first, it can be painful and scary for the egoic sense of self.
But the peace and liberation more than make up for it.
And never is there a sense that it is not as it should be.

Enlightenment
by Toni Packer, "The Wonder of Presence"
Someone asked, Does it really matter if we wake up or not?
A little while ago I took a walk up the hill. What a delightful morning! Warmth and coolness
were present at the same time. Gentleness pervaded the air, and birds were singing
everywhere. Wet, sodden shoes passed by the croaking pond where tiny little skimmers
crisscrossed back and forth on the surface of the water, leaving their ever so delicate tracks.
On the big upper field several deer were grazing. Looking up at the intruder, their long white
tails twitched a little as we looked at each other. Then they kept on grazing. Colors dotted the
sun-drenched field, and blooming grasses were swaying in the breeze. The fragrance of wild
roses filled the air.
If you had walked along with me this beautiful morning, we both would have laughed at the
question whether it matters if we wake up or not.
Had we been caught up in anger, worry, or frustration, we wouldnt have laughed. We would
not have seen the lovely vibrant field.
We have so many questions. Whence do they arise? Are there deeper motives to our
question? Can we wonder about it and look? Someone asked, Is there such a thing as
ultimate, complete and total enlightenment? Are we really asking, If there is such a thing,
can I get it?
Where does wondering about complete and total enlightenment come from? And from where
does wanting it arise? And the frustration about not getting it? Doesnt it all come out of our
deep inner discontent with ourselves, with others, and with the world? Sometimes we cant
even say what it is that causes it; we just feel painfully out of sync. There is an inner
meaninglessness, a feeling of hollow emptiness. Not the emptiness of vast open space, but a
feeling of nothing of value inside, feeling lonely, cut off from happiness and alienated from
people. There may be the fear of abandonment, or feeling unloved. All of these things are
going on in human beings.
Out of the desires to fill up the inner depletion and find lasting contentment may come
questions about enlightenment, and with them the yearning to find meaning and not feel
isolated from everything and everyone. The brain creates endless concepts and fantasies to
alleviate the inner suffering.
If we become increasingly transparent to these movements of thought and feeling, we will

realize that inner pain is not dissolved by conventional ways of dealing with it, materially or
spiritually. Money, position, acquisitions, or relationships have not brought lasting
contentment. Religious beliefs may provide illusions of security and support, but for many of
us they simply have not worked. We have wandered from one belief system to another,
attracted by promises of salvation, liberation, or enlightenment, but real hunger for truth and
clarity can be stilled only with genuine food.
The discursive mind is capable of throwing up doubts and sceptical questions at any time.
Maybe we suddenly find ourselves in quiet openness, a profound stillness without any feeling
of lack. Then thought comes in and beings to wonder Will this last? Can I get it back? Was
it real? Was this enlightenment or is there more? It doesnt seem enough. Thinking about a
past moment of freedom immediately sows the seeds of doubt by asking, Is this all there is?
It cant be! There must be a more convincing experience than what I just had! Thoughts
grow like clinging vines that choke the living presence. Truly being here is being unknown,
unknowable, unadorned. Being here is absence of doubting or affirming thoughts about
myself. It is the absence of me! Thoughts that arise about me are just thoughts, with their
enormous power to obscure clarity.
Is it our task to find out whether or not there is total and complete enlightenment like the
Buddha proclaimed? I always liked the Buddhas saying: I truly attained nothing from
complete, unexcelled enlightenment, and that is why it is called complete, unexcelled
enlightenment No-thing, no one to attain it, spaceless space, no one there to occupy it. Just
alive presence with the evening star in the sky. Dying to all the stuff imagined and clung to
about oneself what I am, what I was, what I will be, what I could be, should be...
Can we see all concepts as concepts with deepening clarity and wisdom? Not immediately
lurching toward something promised in the future that has its sole existence in thoughts? Can
we clearly discern what constitutes thinking and what is actually present right here without
needing to think it? Can we discern it effortlessly?
The open windows, fresh air touching the skin, bright sunshine everywhere, all kinds of
twittering sounds, crows calling and breathing, pulsating life! Caw, caw, caw, caw..
Sensations throughout the body, breathing, beholding it, not the words, but the aliveness of it
all. Can we realize now that complete unexcelled enlightenment is a concept?
You may sincerely object, How can I know for sure that enlightenment is just a concept?
Maybe it is real. Lots of enlightened teachers have told and written about it. So shall we
then ask together: What is enlightenment without all concepts?
Let us delve profoundly into this question, not asking for other peoples description of
experiences, not looking for promises, nor expecting to know for sure, but questioning out of
not knowing, inquiring meditatively, deeply, darkly, until we dont know anymore what is
enlightened or un-enlightened! In silently wondering deeply without knowing, the
conceptual world is left behind. Are we going into the question in this way?
All too often our yearning for something to alleviate the inner suffering gets in the way of
deep inquiry. Rather than asking, What is enlightenment can we question our inner feeling
of insufficiency? We have tried to fill it with fantasies of all descriptions, with entertainment,
acquisitions, achievements, relationships, spiritual searching, and solemn vows anything to
fill the aching void. But have we ever really explored it directly, unconditionally?
Becoming conscious of it in or out of retreat, can we be with the ache of emptiness ,not
calling it by any name? Let all labels fly into thin air and stay with what is here, discomfort
without calling it discomfort. Staying here with whats indefinable. Not resisting, not
fighting, not looking for anything else. Just letting what is here be here in its entirety,
physically, mentally, totally. Letting it be without knowing. Not becoming the doer for or
against it. Just this quiet presence in the midst of the silence of chaos. In this there is an
unfolding transparency. It happens when one sits patiently, silently, unconditionally. By
sitting I simply mean being totally with what is here. Not moving away or toward
something else, just remaining with the whole thing an intense presence that includes all
bodily sensations, breathing, wind-storming, raining, sunning, birding, coughing, fans
humming everything right here, all at once, without a seam. Observing thoughts coming up,
emotions about to be triggered, physical sensations arising and more thoughts, emotions,
feelings, sensations unfolding and abating being with it all. There isnt any place to escape
to. Everything is here without separation.
Let thoughts come up, let them reveal themselves for what they are and disappear. It all is the
stuff of dreams, traces from the infinite past. Thoughts may trigger fear, but fear too can
become transparency. When it arises, here it is. Let it be. Dont call it by name labels attract
memories and reactions from the past. No need to have any feelings about it they too are
empty. Fear is an unavoidable occurrence in our habitual self-centered consciousness. We
cannot possibly live the illusion of a separate me without experiencing fears about what may
happen to it. But illusions and dreams can also be seen as just dreams and illusions, even
though they can arouse tremendous inner turbulence in the form of horror, agony, or pleasure.
It is all part and parcel of human consciousness manifesting as separate me and you.
Sitting quietly, watching things come up time and time again, a tape may be playing: Is that
what meditation is all about? I dont want to spend the rest of my meditative life watching
endless repetitions of garbage. But the important thing is not what is seen but the quality of
seeing. When a person asks, Is watching the comings and goings of thoughts and emotions
all there is to meditation? I say that it all depends on the quality of the watching. Is it
consumed by judging, by feeling guilty, ashamed, or impatient? As those mental movements
occur, see them for what they are and dont be disturbed by them. That is choiceless
awareness no separate watcher occupying center stage. The inner show is simply displaying
itself on its own and needs no particular audience, no applause or rejection . Let it all happen
as it is happening in the infinite space of open presence.
Is choiceless awareness just another dream, a new illusion? Thought can turn anything into
a concept by thinking and dreaming about it. See it when it happens and dont be fooled by it.
Choiceless awareness is not an illusion. It is here for human beings like you and me.
Transparency unfolds on its own, revealing all there is as it is, in utter directness and
simplicity, without need for a director.
Actually, awareness is here even during times of darkness. Presence never goes anywhere.
This is not a dogmatic statement but a simple fact that each one of us can come upon. See the
cloud, the darkness! Hear the wind! Feel the breathing! Smell the flowers! Touch the swaying
grasses! Clouds, wind, thoughts, breathing, fragrant flowers, and grasses change all the time,
but seeing is here without time. Even though doubts may obscure it, it is here the instant the
mind stops and every cell of the body opens up to hear and see and be.
No need to bother ones head about what has been said. Being present is all of oneself, not
just the head! We are this entire living creation from moment to moment without a break.
Walk innocently through the fields, into the woods, along the ocean beach or in the city
streets with the sheer joy of aliveness, its infinite movements and sounds and fragrance the
love of it all without making a thing out of it!
Are we here?
quote:
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because
to the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to
continue penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own
DEATH. The death of the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and
analytical mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing.
This is exactly the experience I've had.

quote:
This is exactly the experience I've had.
Impermanence
Thoughts, feelings and perceptions come and go; they are not me; they are transient in
nature. Isnt it clear that if I am aware of these passing thoughts, feelings and perceptions,
then it proves some entity is immutable and unchanging? This is a logical conclusion rather
than experiential truth. The formless reality seems real and unchanging because of
propensities (conditioning) and the power to recall a previous experience and the experience
of impersonality may not be able to bring sufficient clarity to the impermanent and
dynamic aspect of isness presence. The bliss and peace experienced here, is still the bliss of
formlessness.
There is also another experience, this experience does not discard or disown the transients --
forms, thoughts, feelings and perceptions. It is the experience that thought thinks and sound
hears. Thought knows not because there is a separate knower but because it is that which is
known. It knows because it's it. It gives rise to the insight that isness never exists in an
undifferentiated state but as transient manifestation; each moment of manifestation is an
entirely new reality, complete in its own. This brings about the insight of non-duality but the
experience of impersonality need not necessarily arise.
My experience is fusing and stabilizing these 2 experiences are necessary to help further
dissolve the I. With the dropping of the 'I' , experience whole-heartedly and dropped the
experience immediately; then nothing will imobilize the flow.
PS: By the way, any idea what give rise to the sense of impersonality?
quote:

The open windows, fresh air touching the skin, bright sunshine everywhere, all kinds of
twittering sounds, crows calling and breathing, pulsating life! Caw, caw, caw, caw..
Sensations throughout the body, breathing, beholding it, not the words, but the aliveness of it
all. Can we realize now that complete unexcelled enlightenment is a concept?
You may sincerely object, How can I know for sure that enlightenment is just a concept?
Maybe it is real. Lots of enlightened teachers have told and written about it. So shall we
then ask together: What is enlightenment without all concepts?
.
.
.
Are we here?
No! To answer both Toni Packer's questions of "are we here?" and "Can we discern it
effortlessly?". It is like Buddha asking non-dual practitioners the non-local aspect of
our nature.
I think wisdom should also involve the clear discernment of the entire working of our
conditioning, not only the non-dual aspect of it.
quote:
Impermanence
Thoughts, feelings and perceptions come and go; they are not me; they are transient in
nature. Isnt it clear that if I am aware of these passing thoughts, feelings and perceptions,
then it proves some entity is immutable and unchanging? This is a logical conclusion rather
than experiential truth. The formless reality seems real and unchanging because of
propensities (conditioning) and the power to recall a previous experience and the experience
of impersonality may not be able to bring sufficient clarity to the impermanent and
dynamic aspect of isness presence. The bliss and peace experienced here, is still the bliss of
formlessness.
just to add:
This experience somehow creates a sense of alienation. There is really nothing to alienate as
the fundamental cause of suffering is not the inherent existence of evil in the transient but
ignorance; ignorance of the true nature of things.
There is also another experience, this experience does not discard or disown the transients --
forms, thoughts, feelings and perceptions. It is the experience that thought thinks and sound
hears. Thought knows not because there is a separate knower but because it is that which is
known. It knows because it's it. It gives rise to the insight that isness never exists in an
undifferentiated state but as transient manifestation; each moment of manifestation is an
entirely new reality, complete in its own. This brings about the insight of non-duality but the
experience of impersonality need not necessarily arise.
An Eternal Now: 31 August 2007 10:00 PM

quote:
No! To answer both Toni Packer's questions of "are we here?" and "Can we discern it
effortlessly?". It is like Buddha asking non-dual practitioners the non-local aspect
of our nature.
I think wisdom should also involve the clear discernment of the entire working of our
conditioning, not only the non-dual aspect of it.
I see..
----------------------------
http://www.awakeningtothedream.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?p=34050&highlight=#34050
The "Ego"
PasserBy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:00 am Post subject:
michael wrote:
epi wrote:
The ego is simply 'Lack of Space'
at first it appears "I am this body/mind"... 'squeezed' into a tiny bit of 'space-time'...
then it may appear "I am this whole experience"... this flowing ever changing
'moment'... that fills all space... as seen from a specific perspective... at a specific
ever changing 'point' in time' and 'space'...
then it may appear that "I am all this that is conceived... ever unchanging... and the
instantaneous appearance/experience of it from a unique perspective each apparent
moment"...
beyond appearances... "I am"... is meaningless...
Love
and
When the need for meaning dissolves,

The urge to fuse appearances and I Am also subsides.
Thanks for sharing.
PasserBy Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:29 am Post subject:

ANNA wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
and

Thanks for sharing.
yes.....
just Beingness.
Beingness is always here.
Breathing in.
Breathing out.
Just to sit quietly - for its own sake.
The entire universe is just this breath.

Simply so.
Maha! Great and miraculous!
PasserBy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject:
empty-and-full wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:
epi wrote:
The ego is simply 'Lack of Space'
at first it appears "I am this body/mind"... 'squeezed' into a tiny bit

of 'space-time'...
then it may appear "I am this whole experience"... this flowing

ever changing 'moment'... that fills all space... as seen from a
specific perspective... at a specific ever changing 'point' in time'
and 'space'...
then it may appear that "I am all this that is conceived... ever
unchanging... and the instantaneous appearance/experience of it
from a unique perspective each apparent moment"...
beyond appearances... "I am"... is meaningless...
Love
and

Thanks for sharing.
I guess "I" am never going to get there.
Yes and beautifully expressed. 'No one' gets there.
Waves and Oceans
PasserBy
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:12 am Post subject:
Ocean or wave, do not take away my credit. I am the wind that does not differentiate. I know
you through your intrinsicness in all movements caused by me. You have never been
separated from me since beginlessness of time and I will never cease to be.
PasserBy
Welcome aboard Passerby,
So glad to see you here.
Enjoy the boards, there's a good bunch of people here. (I think!)
Thank you empty-and-full.

or
Mere appearances arising and ceasing naturally from authentic conditions.
PasserBy
Quote:
Mere appearances arising and ceasing naturally from authentic conditions
I don't know what the authentic conditions are, but overall, it sounds good to me.
hehe...Buddhist's term refering to all 'winds' or contributing factors that make appearances
appears so. There is no purest state, all arising states are equally pure, complete and do not
remain. The prisitne awareness and the 'winds' are inseparable.
Thoughts on Volition....
PasserBy Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Volition....
epi wrote:
It stands to reason (physiologically) that 'volition'
is still for the most part an 'involuntary' biological function of the human.
Nearly all of the human machine behaves mechanically and involuntarily.

Example:Sight,smell,etc are involuntary functions.
Its in our nature to gravitate to pleasure

and avoid pain. ...its an issue of energy and balance.
Everyone instictivly knows to come in out of the rain.
(Volition is not a true choice then ?....correct?)
Hi epi,
The idea of a subject acting upon an object is a logical deduction and the whole idea of 'I' and
'mine' is learnt. Because our mind is so molded to think in terms of subject-object dichotomy,
effortlessness and liberating experience of spontaneous arising more often than not are
misperceived as 'mechanical and involuntary'.
We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap in perception and intuitive
experience that there is no separate I, the bond of mine will naturally subsides. That is
another logical deduction which is far from truth in terms of actual experience. The bond of
mine is far more subtle.
My 2 cents.
PasserBy Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject:
Aurora wrote:
"Everybody understands the single drop

merging into the ocean.
One in a million understands the ocean
merging into a single drop"
Kabir
If 'all others' in between 'the single drop' and 'ocean' are included, u can also take out the
word 'merge'...
PasserBy
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject:
Quote:
We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap in perception
and intuitive experience that there is no separate I, the bond of mine
will naturally subsides.
Well said Passerby,
It's interesting that only people who have experienced this will know what you are
talking about.
I like this expression "the quantum leap in perception". Without this new
perception, this new paradigm, there would still be total involvement with thoughts
and beliefs.
There is another bad habit even after the leap, that is, we continue to use concepts to 'grasp'
the pristineness of our nature. Nothing wrong with conceptuality really, just that it is the
wrong tool for this purpose!
Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our entire being directly.
PasserBy
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:06 am Post subject:
michael wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
Quote:
We should also not to mistaken that with the quantum leap
in perception and intuitive experience that there is no
separate I, the bond of mine will naturally subsides.
Well said Passerby,
It's interesting that only people who have experienced this will
know what you are talking about.
I like this expression "the quantum leap in perception". Without

this new perception, this new paradigm, there would still be total
involvement with thoughts and beliefs.
There is another bad habit even after the leap, that is, we continue to use
concepts to 'grasp' the pristineness of our nature. Nothing wrong with
conceptuality really, just that it is the wrong tool for this purpose!
Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our

entire being directly.
whether apparent as 'objects'... or 'words'... it is all the same 'conception'...
the wonder full 'complication'... known with 'entire being'...
this knowing/known... this 'simplicity'... that cannot be sensed... or known...
only this fleeting image is sensed... and known...
as 'phenomena'... appearing and disappearing...
inseparable from...
this 'ineffable changeless'... that neither appears... nor... disappears...
unsensable... unknowable...
to 'awareness' (this sensing and knowing) 'it' is 'non-existent'... for 'it' cannot be
sensed or known...
only its image appears...
'it'... is this sensing/sensations and knowing/known...
'awaring'...
One...
Love
Indeed. Most clear and true!

Therefore seek not the mirror but see the nature of reflection.
Reflection alone is, no mirror reflecting.
The one hand claps, everything is.
Thanks for sharing.
PasserBy Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:18 am Post subject:
toombaru wrote:
toombaru wrote:
gretta wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
Aurora wrote:
"Everybody understands the single

drop
merging into the ocean.
One in a million understands the
ocean
merging into a single drop"
Kabir
If 'all others' in between 'the single drop' and 'ocean' are

included, u can also take out the word 'merge'...
heard of the 'adviata couple who fell in love' apparently

'merged' .'after a chants meeting'?
Objects are attracted to each other's center.

Life is engulfed in its own gravitational attraction.......Everything is drawn
to everything's center.
toombaru
No longer am I content to simply hug and hold.
Now....it is nakedness I seek........skin to skin..........
........centers swirling......remembering.......who they always are.
toombaru
Already thoroughly bare and naked.

Don't cover it!
awakening wrote:
It does not have to be labeled as grasping

-although it may-
as such labeling could be seen as
simply an 'other' expression
of THAT which 'knows' no other.
Profoundly true. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
Concepts complicate matter; simplicity comes from sensing with our
entire being directly.
Yes, true surrender.
Just be.
Thanks for introducing me to this wonderful site. I learn a lot here!

Getting ready for a trip to Japan. Take good care of urself! Good luck!
Gone!
Quote
PasserBy Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject:
michael wrote:
good... though as to the 'articulation'... that remains to be seen...
all sensations are the same as colour... they are 'qualia'... irreducible... they cannot
be verified by anyone but the 'subject'...
who... according to science... is the 'sensing/sensations' that arise in the instant....
together...
seeing inseparable from colour

hearing inseparable from sound
tasting inseparable from flavour
smelling inseparable from odour
feeling inseparable from feelings
is 'awareness'...
according to science... this 'witness witnessing' is a function of 'brain activity'...

arising in a moment... and in a moment gone... as 'brain activity' is altered... in 'deep
sleep' for example... or if the brain is damaged... or upon death of the brain...
is there anything missing from this description of 'awareness'... as proposed by

science?
Love
Hi Michael, wonderful post. Enjoyed very much the detail explanation!
Awareness is,
When condition is, that is.

No who, no when, no where.
Non dual and non local!
However, in my opinion, it is needless to posit 'isness' as a figment of the 'Infinite known' and
reduced the 'newness' of 'isness' into an 'already is'. Rather rest in the magic of arising. The
former being conceptual and the later, spriitual.
Just my 2 cents.
Sudden Realization
PasserBy
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject:
Kali wrote:
gretta wrote:
jeff j wrote:
gretta wrote:
'This' as apparent 'thinking'
'This' as apparent 'meditation'
'This' as apparent 'war'
'This' as apparent 'confusion'
'This' as apparent 'silence'
'changelessness'.
'suchness'
'mmmmmmmmmmm'
'This' as 'nosuchsuchness' ' '

'all' 'Presence'
ahhh* 'Love'
*ahhhhhhhhhh no quotes apparently ' '
'This' as apparent 'thinking'
'This' as apparent 'meditation'
'This' as apparent 'war'
'This' as apparent 'confusion'
'This' as apparent 'silence'
maybe a new term sums it all up:

Thisasapparent
simply going just with the ahhhhhhhhhhhh
strange, for me, it is not so much the ahhhhhhhhh....but more the realization of its
inherent simplicity...it has been very simple all the way..but "I" had failed to realize
it sooner....
what is being experienced, now, is the impersonality of all that is happening...
Kali
Mere happening alone is. The 'I' is extra.
Am I only a dream?
michael wrote:
yes dear One...
and even as the thought apparently arises...
Just This...
Self-arising
Self-shining...
Love
awakening wrote:
Certainly Michael,
thought is as much included
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
as all other appearances.
The intention of the post

was to 'experientially establish'
that this 'me'
is more of a thought
than an independent entity.
Whether thought continues or stops....
Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
Just no 'me'
to which it all pertains.
There is no this that is more this than that.

Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.
The emptiness nature

That is ever manifesting presently
Has not in anyway denied its own luminosity.
Although non-dual is seen with clarity,

The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence
Its non-locality.
awakening wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:
yes dear One...
Just This...
Self-arising
Self-shining...
Love
awakening wrote:
Certainly Michael,
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...

that this 'me'
Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
Just no 'me'
Hi PB
Just curious..
Is this an affirmation of the above
or is there anything in those 2 quotes
that gives the idea of
there being a this which is more this than that?
Hi Awakening,
Just a reflection on the preference of self-arising and self shining nature.
Many times with all our will and effort, we are unable to get our mind to rest; but when we
are completely exhausted, the 'let go' is effortless and we rest naturally. Nothing pessimistic
but total cessation can be an important condition for the arising of effortless luminosity. At
times we may unknowingly miss the valuable message that Great Cessation carries.
Just my 2 cents. Nothing intense.

michael wrote:
PasserBy wrote:
michael wrote:
yes dear One...
Just This...
Self-arising
Self-shining...
Love
awakening wrote:
Certainly Michael,
in this
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...

that this 'me'
Still...
This
Self-arising
Self-shining
ISness...
Just no 'me'

Although thought arises and ceases vividly,
Every arising and ceasing remains as entire as it can be.
The emptiness nature

Although non-dual is seen with clarity,

The urge to remain can still blind subtly.
Like a passerby that passes, is gone completely.
Die utterly
And bear witness of this pure presence
Its non-locality.
and yet... that which seems to die... is already dead...
Love
and 'that which seems to die' or 'already dead'
is still
just as it is.
Thanks for sharing.
PasserBy
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:
aquarius wrote:
[Quote PB]The emptiness nature
Zen-ly expressed!

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Forum Topic: lame question on meditation

Longchen: 02 December 2004 08:23 AM

Longchen: 03 December 2004 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Sangha:

The 'Blueness' of the blue sky isn't 'I'.

Thank you for your profound explanation.

Thusness: 03 December 2004 11:10 PM

Longchen: 03 December 2004 11:21 PM

You are indeed enlightened.

Longchen: 04 December 2004 12:00 AM

Search for it, loses it and cycle within the mind

Thusness: 11 December 2004 11:39 AM

When things are "be"? What is it?

God does not think

Simpo: Reply #1 on Jan 3, 2005, 8:44am

Have you heard of this famous saying by Lao Tze...

Omsairam: Reply #2 on Jan 3, 2005, 9:06am

The instrument(mind) I have is severly limited...it cannot think beyond

From my understanding, everything is in fact all happening in the Eternal

Have you heard of this famous saying by Lao Tze...

The Tao that can be expresses is not the eternal Tao;

Simpo: Reply #3 on Jan 3, 2005, 9:16am

Do you practice Bhakti Yoga?

Omsairam: Reply #4 on Jan 3, 2005, 9:29am

I do not believe in relative-relative love but relative-absolute love...

For me there is no place/time/circumstance/method for meditation

True love is ageless/timeless and independent of everything. To love god I need no

Do you practice Bhakti Yoga?

Thusness: Reply #7 on Jan 3, 2005, 10:04pm

The mind travels to and fro in an unbelievable speed,

Can the ultimate Subject be made an Object of observation?

It is the current mode of thinking and understanding God that is at fault.

The mysterious gate is ever open in the HERE and NOW.

Omsairam: Thread Started on Dec 25, 2004, 5:51am

Simpo: Reply #4 on Jan 1, 2005, 2:34am

This is how I understand it...

This is how I see it... I wish others can comment on it...

Thusness: Reply #5 on Jan 1, 2005, 9:35am

From the tick of a clock to the tick of our thought,

In the emptiness space of the consciousness to the content in the consciousness,

When things emerge from nothingness,

Bob: Reply #6 on Jan 1, 2005, 9:44am

Simpo: Reply #7 on Jan 1, 2005, 11:12am

Thank you for the explanation. It is very thought-provoking.

Simpo: Reply #13 on Jan 23, 2005, 6:40am

It's so simple... yet so elusive.

Forum Topic: All there is is Presence

The layers are as follows:

Physical layer- attention/belief put to physical sensations(thought)

Mental layer- attention to mental thoughts

Emotional layer- cause by judging the mental thoughts

In addition, there is a storehouse where all images/belief of oneself is stored.

For example: we may have this image:

There is no point saying all is/are You, Presence, Reality.

Thusness: 06 March 2005 05:12 PM

It is not that it is pointless to experience all as pure presence.

Longchen: 06 March 2005 09:02 PM

Thanks for the help.